19800 From: nidive Date: Fri Feb 21, 2003 8:54am Subject: [dsg] Re: Calm and Insight. Co. Hi RobertK, > What do you understand by momentary concentration (khaninka samadhi); > in theory , practice and daily life? In theory, there must be an object of reference. For example, according to Mahasi Sayadaw, the object of reference is the arising and subsiding of the abdomen. No matter what other senses impinge on the mind, the meditator is to only take note of the impingements and return to noticing the object of reference. If a meditator papancizes on an impingement and fails to return back to the object of reference for an extended period of time, then concentration is poor. If a meditator is able to concentrate on the object of reference to such an extent that papancizing of the other sense impingements are suppressed, then concentration is good. Also, if a meditator papancizes on the object of reference, then concentration is also poor because papancizing on it introduce a train of thoughts that is separate from the noticing of it. In practice and daily life, I feel that I have already practised such concentration in my past lives; it's like a natural ability. When I was about 7-8 years old, I always liked to watch the clouds pass by the bedroom window while I lay on my bed. It's not that the clouds are *nice* to watch or that the blue sky is *nice* to see. But as I concentrate on the movement of the clouds, there is a kind of inner peace that develops in the mind. This movement of the clouds is my object of reference. Another instance is a time when I was shampooing my head. As I concentrate on the movement of my hands going around touching my head, a sudden realization dawns that there is no self that directs my hands to go around my head. I then realized that this mind is nothing more than a "monkey" that goes around doing its own business without any self to direct it. I know then that there is direction without a director; there is control without a controller. I can still realize this not-selfness when I raise my concentration to such a level. But at other times, this not-selfness is not readily apparent. Usually, I take a mental object as my object of reference. When I am walking, I like to engage in thoughts on a particular subject, especially aspects of the Dhamma. As I think, I am also mindful of where I should land my feet next. Although the train of thoughts is not disrupted, but it is certainly slower than when I am sitting down. Sometimes when thinking deeply about an aspect of the Dhamma while walking slowly around the house, a kind of bodily rapture down the spine diffusing to the body can occur. Why this occurs, I do not know. But there is no fear when it occurs. Earlier on, I was thinking of how to write my reply to you while I was washing my clothes. As I concentrated on this mental object, I was also mindful of the procedure for washing my clothes. But this kind of concentration is not strong. Sometimes, when concentrating on a mental object, I can be distracted by another mental object. When this happens, I know that concentration is poor. And this usually happens when there is worry over some other thing or there is restlessness. Sometimes, when concentrating on a mental object, I can be so absorbed in it to such an extent that I do not even know that another person is calling my name, even though I know that there is some noises/sounds. It is only when the person comes very near me and call my name then I "wake up" from my "trance". Most of the times, there is litte concentration. Especially when working (when everything is rush, rush, rush) and also when I indulge in the five sensual senses. This is my understanding of momentary concentration. Regards, NEO Swee Boon 19801 From: nidive Date: Fri Feb 21, 2003 9:39am Subject: [dsg] Re: Kamma and Conventional Events: A Brief Comment Hi Howard, > How did the prior bad deeds put them where they were on 9-11 so that > they would fall victim to the attack? Did the kamma seeds know about > the upcoming attack!? The kamma seeds obviously did not put them where they were on 911. If it did, then it would contradict Sivaka sutta (whatever happens is all caused by what was done in the past). They were there because of cetana (read new kamma). They were not there because of vipaka (results of kamma). The victims' presence at the WTC on 911 was not caused by what was done in the past. A person's absence at the WTC on 911 was also not caused by what was done in the past. Is the Buddha's presence at the foot of the mountain where Devadatta threw down the huge boulder intending to kill the Buddha caused by what was done in the past? Certainly not. It is caused by cetana (read new kamma) by way of conascent kamma-condition. A Buddha cannot be killed by the assault of another person. Why? Because there is no supporting vipaka for such a thing to happen. Vipaka cannot cause someone to be at the WTC on 911. But if a person is at the WTC on 911 and there is no supporting vipaka for his untimely death, he would still survive. You might think this to be very unlikely, but the results of kamma is imponderable. That is why it is said: 'Of kamma I am constituted. Kamma is my inheritance; kamma is the matrix; kamma is my kinsman; KAMMA IS MY REFUGE. Whatever kamma I perform, be it good or bad, to that I shall be heir.' Regards, NEO Swee Boon 19802 From: nidive Date: Fri Feb 21, 2003 9:59am Subject: Re: Kamma and Conventional Events: A Brief Comment Hi Howard, > A possible scenario: The farmer, a man consumed by anger, killed an ox > by fire. This left an indelible mark, a seed, in the farmers's mindstream. > This terrible deed led firstly to rebirth as an animal, a crow. Later on, > encountering fire, the crow, instead of avoiding the fire, was distracted > somehow (he was predisposed to miss the danger of fire), and he flew right > into it - he was consumed by the fire - more correctly (and poetically), he > was consumed by his anger. A rebirth kammic seed and a life-destructive kammic seed need not be the same seed. For example, the rebirth of Maha-Mogallana is due to a kusala kammic seed but his destructive death is due to an akusala kammic seed. There is no relation between these two seeds then. > Does kamma leave mental seeds, and do those seeds have effects? Yes, > but always by some actual means, some actual mechanism. This is how I see it. But I still don't get what you mean when you say that not all that happens to one is vipaka. Aren't you saying previously that the deaths of the victims of 911 are not their vipaka? Regards, NEO Swee Boon 19803 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Feb 21, 2003 10:10am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: vipassana Dear smallchap, see below. op 20-02-2003 03:22 schreef smallchap op smallchap@y...: > > S: With sammadhi as the > supporting factor to cause the mind to be aleart yet passive, and > with an equanimous attitude, one should be able to walk away from the > pitfalls. N: As I see it, it is panna that clearly discerns when there is attachment and when there is detachment, and also, what leads to detachment from self. Panna knows, understands. It is accompanied by samadhi, but samadhi focusses on the object panna understands, panna is the leader. The equanimous attitude, to be more precise, there are many kinds and degrees of equanimity, upekkha. But I think you mean in conventional sense, not being distressed by one's clinging. S: One question here. What do you mean by silabbata paramasa? > I am sure here it does not mean attachment to rules and rituals. N: In the Buddha's time some people behaved like a dog and believed they could get a result from this practice. The word stands for wrong practice, practice that does not lead to the goal: detachment from the wrong view of self, and the eradication of all defilements. We have to verify whether a certain practice is based on the teachings and we have to find out whether it leads to detachment from the concept of self. That is, the idea of, I do it, I practice. Some people may select the objects of sati and panna, but this will not lead to the goal. Let us first see what the objects of sati and panna are. "Path of Discriminatyion", I, Treatise on Knoiwledge, Ch 1: All: "Bhikkhus, all is to be directly known. And what is that all that is to be directly known? ...{201 dhammas}: Materiality, feeling, perception, formations, consciousness is to be directly known...Craving for visible objects, sounds...odours...flavours...tangible objects..ideas is to be directly known." Lobha is the second noble Truth, it has to be known. When? Now, when it appears. It is so difficult to detect because it can be very subtle. When it is not subtle but more intense it may happen that we do not want it to be true. But it is reality and if there is no awareness, it cannot be realized as non-self. If one tries to suppress akusala, how can it be known as it is? The all should be known, no exception. Even the tendency to suppress akusala should be known: it is a conditioned nama. This is very important. We read in the "Kindred Sayings" (IV, Salayatanavagga, Second Fifty, Ch 2, § 70: Then the vennerable Upavåna came to see the Exalted One:- " 'Of immediate use is the Norm (Dhamma)! Of immediate use is the Norm!' is the saying, lord. Pray, lord, to what extent is the Norm of immediate use, apart from time, bidding one come and see, leading on (to the Goal), to be experienced, each for himself, by the wise?" "Now here (under my teaching), Upavåna, when a brother sees an object with the eye, he experiences objects, conceives a passion for objects, and of that passion for objects which exists for him personally he is aware, 'I have personally a passion for objects.'..." The same is said with regard to the other doorways. The Buddha then explains that when there is no desire for objects, he is aware that there is no desire. If we realize akusala as only a conditioned nama it is most helpful, even now. We do not have aversion about it; aversion means, still more akusala. At the moment of awareness, the citta is kusala. This is the Middle Way: not avoiding to know akusala. If one avoids to know it, it is very dangerous, because it causes delusion. One believes that there are no tendencies to akusala, that one is so good. Even when sati and panna are still very much of a beginner, it is already beneficial to be aware of akusala. When we see it as a conditioned reality we can also understand others when they say disagreeable things or commit bad actions. The cittas which motivates speech and action arose because of accumulated tendencies, and they have fallen away already when we are thinking about someone's speech or action. It will be easier to forgive. Any time is time for practice. Are we distracted? That is a reality. In Bangkok we were reminded about wrong practice. When there is a moment of awareness, we should ask ourselves: do I want more? If we try to find ways and means to have more awareness, it is wrong practice, it prevents us to see the anattaness, also of sati and panna. Or we may take thinking of the stages of insight for insight, for direct understanding. Then we are led by lobha and we may go into the wrong direction. So many ways to go wrong, because we have accumulated ignorance and clinging for aeons. So long as we are not sotapannas there will all the time be the inclination to wrong practice. It should be detected as such. Next time about sankhaarupekkhaa. Nina. 19804 From: christine_forsyth Date: Fri Feb 21, 2003 10:47am Subject: Comfort Dear Group, In the Scriptures, there is a mention of Admirable Friends and Association with the Wise, as being SO important that it is "the whole of the holy life". Why so? How can one can tell who is Wise? What is 'association with' - can reading posts on various Yahoo groups really be put in that category? Maybe our being born in these times, with access to computer technology, is a double-edged sword. On the one hand, there is easy access to viewing The Truthspeaker's words, but, on the other hand, the Sangha that many of us have access to is just squiggles on a screen. It is left up to the individual to assess the truth or otherwise of anything that comes in through the eye door - and how much of it is Wrong View? The Blessed One corrected Ananda when he said Admirable Friends were half the holy life and, instead, He emphasised that Admirable Friends were the whole of the holy life. One reason could be that contact with committed Dhamma friends is the best way to keep the Dhamma in the forefront of one's mind. Are there other benefits? In everyday life, a friend is someone before whom I can think aloud, that is, someone who cares for me, wishes the best for me, and with whom I can have a transparent relationship with no fear of judgment and no need to pretend to be better or worse than I am. I once asked a question about courage in the scriptures ... perhaps what I was also looking for was 'comfort in the scriptures'. If we are, for example, having a miserable experience in our work lives, who can we turn to? DSG has usually somewhere over 270 members, but most are unknown and don't communicate. Of those that do post, many [have so little trust that they] use false names and email tags which don't even reveal their gender. [Can you imagine any group meeting in real life covered in cloaks and masks, mostly silent, some using voice distortion devices, and saying "trust us, we're your admirable friends"?] I have occasionally had the experience of things not going right in life, and of wanting to obtain guidance and talk things over from a buddhist perspective. This doesn't happen because confidentiality and trust are two major parts of friendship, and my only option would be to become a public diversion by posting to a list with hundreds of unknown members. It seems it is 'bad form' and inconsiderate for a Buddhist to mention their own worries. 'Sometime', 'somewhere' you performed the kamma and current suffering is your 'just deserts'. Never completely figured out how this works with anatta. Never completely figured out how worldly suffering is 'all just a story, just thinking'. It's feels unbearably real. I can't see any 'protection' in buddhism either. Looking back, I'm sure that prayer used to often work, whatever the mechanism. I can't seem to find anything much in the teachings about 'comfort' or 'peace of mind' - except those references to the practically unattainable Nibanna, so far in the future for most that it isn't any comfort at all. Formal meditation seems to have some emotional benefits, at least as a 'wellness tool'. Apart from that, mostly I feel Buddhism currently seems to offer stoicism -'no control' and 'endurance'. metta, Christine 19805 From: rjkjp1 Date: Fri Feb 21, 2003 1:21pm Subject: (2)Anattta and Kamma and Conventional Events: A Brief Comment Dear Ray, Howard and Dharam, As I said before kamma is a main conditioning factor and hence a core aspect of understanding anatta, no-self. In an earlier post I quoted the Dhammapada atthakatha: http://www.vipassana.info/f.htm#threegroupsof In this a farmer tied a straw rope round the neck of the ox and set fire to it, and the ox died. ""On account of this evil deed the, farmer had suffered for a long time in niraya, and in serving out the remaining part of his punishment, he had been burnt to death in the last seven existences." Then the Buddha spoke in verse as follows: Verse 127. Not in the sky, nor in the middle of the ocean, nor in the cave of a mountain, nor anywhere else, is there a place, where one may escape from the consequences of an evil deed. At the end of the discourse all the bhikkhus attained Sotapatti Fruition. _____ Dharam you asked: ""Why should we be concerned with concepts such as 'punishment' for the old farmer for past misdeeds?"" Often in the suttas the Buddha teaches the Dhamma in conventional terms (vohara vacana) and so refers to human beings and animals etc. Certainly, as you realise, these have no reality and are merely concepts used for convenience. In the case of such terms as punishment (unpleasant result) we know that in the true sense there is no one who receives results but that results arise by conditions: From the Visuddhimagga 172"Experiencer is a convention for mere arising of fruit (vipaka);" And Vis. XIX20 "There is no doer of a deed Or one who reaps the deeds result: Phenomena alone flow on- No other view than this is right." This is basic Dhamma and I am glad you bought it up as otherwise we might turn away from the stories in the Dhammapada of Jataka commentaries not realising their profundity. Indeed you write: "How is the the seeming attention paid to mythical issues consistent with the expectation that we should test any teaching against reality? [The stories of the farmer, Maha Mogallana etc. and references to devas etc.]" In part I think this is answered above but to clarify further. We may think of devas and such as mythical but the greatest myth is the idea that `we' exist now. Thus when I read the Dhammapada or the Jataka I look at it in this way, which is also the way that life is here and now. The Abhidhamma- which should inform our understanding whenever we consider- shows us that what we thought were trees and people and animals and devas even ourself are only conditioned, evanescent aggregates (khandas). I think knowing this we read the story in a different way: That it is that the story is an illustration of the workings of conditionality, especially that condition called kamma. You further ask: "How is concern about kamma consistent with concentrating on what is just occuring in the moment?" Well when there is concentrating on the present this can be with right view or wrong view. Someone may know breath or subtle sensations in the body or heat or seeing but with no insight. So one who has some background in Dhamma knows – at least theoretically - that "The mental and material are really here, but here there is no human being to be found,for it is void and merely fashioned like a doll just suffering piled up like grass and sticks"(visuddimagga xvii31). And further than this one must know that nama(mentality) and rupa (matter) are conditioned to arise by conditions such as kamma. Now we cannot know what kamma done in what life produced this momnt of seeing consciousness. It could have been kamma done 100,000 millions of aeons ago that was the dominant condition. But I believe developed insight can see how conditions work. "The succession of kamma and its result is only [fully]clear in its true nature to the Buddha's . But the succession of kamma and its result can be known in part by one practising insight" Vis. Xix17 Back to the present moment: Didn't we, before we heard Dhamma, think that `our' body and mind, which we all know are here now, were something good? But in fact they are killers: "therefore the wise should see the aggregates (the five khandas, nama and rupa) as murderers." Visuddhimagga XiV230 When we talk about such matter(ruap) as the eyebase, earbase etc which are produced by kamma (done in past lives) it is again the same as discussing anatta. "All formed bases should be regarded as having no provenance and no destination. For the do not come from anywhere prior to their arrival nor do they go anywhere after their fall. On the contrary, before their rise they had no individual essence and after their fall their individual essence is completely dissolved. And they occur without mastery been exercisable over them since they exist dependent on conditions and in between the past and future". No control and powerlessness is the sign of anatta. And again this relates to right insight into the present moment. Someone with wrong understanding will try to control or change the present moment rather than insighting it as it is now, rather than understanding the conditionality of each moment. Back to the story about the farmer: "At the end of the discourse all the bhikkhus attained Sotapatti Fruition." We might wonder how such an apparently simple story could lead directly to enlightenment. It is because this discourse teaches conditionality and anatta – and for those with accumulations must lead to insight into the conditioned nature of this moment. Dharam: "I guess I am looking more for logical explanations, instead of quotation from suttas, to buttress a viewpoint. Thanks." I hope this is along the lines of what you are looking for. Happy to clarify if you wish. RobertK 19806 From: m. nease Date: Fri Feb 21, 2003 4:41pm Subject: Re: [dsg] (2)Anattta and Kamma and Conventional Events: A Brief Comment Hi Rob, Really outstanding post. Can you cite from the texts on "No control and powerlessness is the sign of anatta"? I think this could be very useful but have no direct textual collaboration (sorry if I've missed, forgotten or overlooked this in previous posts). In Pali, I've found for 'powerless': abala; dubbala; asamattha; sattihiina (haven't had time to search for these in the texts yet). Do we have any Pali for 'no control'? Thank you, sir, mike ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Friday, February 21, 2003 1:21 PM Subject: [dsg] (2)Anattta and Kamma and Conventional Events: A Brief Comment Dear Ray, Howard and Dharam, As I said before kamma is a main conditioning factor and hence a core aspect of understanding anatta, no-self. In an earlier post I quoted the Dhammapada atthakatha: http://www.vipassana.info/f.htm#threegroupsof In this a farmer tied a straw rope round the neck of the ox and set fire to it, and the ox died. ""On account of this evil deed the, farmer had suffered for a long time in niraya, and in serving out the remaining part of his punishment, he had been burnt to death in the last seven existences." Then the Buddha spoke in verse as follows: Verse 127. Not in the sky, nor in the middle of the ocean, nor in the cave of a mountain, nor anywhere else, is there a place, where one may escape from the consequences of an evil deed. At the end of the discourse all the bhikkhus attained Sotapatti Fruition. _____ Dharam you asked: ""Why should we be concerned with concepts such as 'punishment' for the old farmer for past misdeeds?"" Often in the suttas the Buddha teaches the Dhamma in conventional terms (vohara vacana) and so refers to human beings and animals etc. Certainly, as you realise, these have no reality and are merely concepts used for convenience. In the case of such terms as punishment (unpleasant result) we know that in the true sense there is no one who receives results but that results arise by conditions: From the Visuddhimagga 172"Experiencer is a convention for mere arising of fruit (vipaka);" And Vis. XIX20 "There is no doer of a deed Or one who reaps the deeds result: Phenomena alone flow on- No other view than this is right." This is basic Dhamma and I am glad you bought it up as otherwise we might turn away from the stories in the Dhammapada of Jataka commentaries not realising their profundity. Indeed you write: "How is the the seeming attention paid to mythical issues consistent with the expectation that we should test any teaching against reality? [The stories of the farmer, Maha Mogallana etc. and references to devas etc.]" In part I think this is answered above but to clarify further. We may think of devas and such as mythical but the greatest myth is the idea that `we' exist now. Thus when I read the Dhammapada or the Jataka I look at it in this way, which is also the way that life is here and now. The Abhidhamma- which should inform our understanding whenever we consider- shows us that what we thought were trees and people and animals and devas even ourself are only conditioned, evanescent aggregates (khandas). I think knowing this we read the story in a different way: That it is that the story is an illustration of the workings of conditionality, especially that condition called kamma. You further ask: "How is concern about kamma consistent with concentrating on what is just occuring in the moment?" Well when there is concentrating on the present this can be with right view or wrong view. Someone may know breath or subtle sensations in the body or heat or seeing but with no insight. So one who has some background in Dhamma knows - at least theoretically - that "The mental and material are really here, but here there is no human being to be found,for it is void and merely fashioned like a doll just suffering piled up like grass and sticks"(visuddimagga xvii31). And further than this one must know that nama(mentality) and rupa (matter) are conditioned to arise by conditions such as kamma. Now we cannot know what kamma done in what life produced this momnt of seeing consciousness. It could have been kamma done 100,000 millions of aeons ago that was the dominant condition. But I believe developed insight can see how conditions work. "The succession of kamma and its result is only [fully]clear in its true nature to the Buddha's . But the succession of kamma and its result can be known in part by one practising insight" Vis. Xix17 Back to the present moment: Didn't we, before we heard Dhamma, think that `our' body and mind, which we all know are here now, were something good? But in fact they are killers: "therefore the wise should see the aggregates (the five khandas, nama and rupa) as murderers." Visuddhimagga XiV230 When we talk about such matter(ruap) as the eyebase, earbase etc which are produced by kamma (done in past lives) it is again the same as discussing anatta. "All formed bases should be regarded as having no provenance and no destination. For the do not come from anywhere prior to their arrival nor do they go anywhere after their fall. On the contrary, before their rise they had no individual essence and after their fall their individual essence is completely dissolved. And they occur without mastery been exercisable over them since they exist dependent on conditions and in between the past and future". No control and powerlessness is the sign of anatta. And again this relates to right insight into the present moment. Someone with wrong understanding will try to control or change the present moment rather than insighting it as it is now, rather than understanding the conditionality of each moment. Back to the story about the farmer: "At the end of the discourse all the bhikkhus attained Sotapatti Fruition." We might wonder how such an apparently simple story could lead directly to enlightenment. It is because this discourse teaches conditionality and anatta - and for those with accumulations must lead to insight into the conditioned nature of this moment. Dharam: "I guess I am looking more for logical explanations, instead of quotation from suttas, to buttress a viewpoint. Thanks." I hope this is along the lines of what you are looking for. Happy to clarify if you wish. RobertK 19807 From: Date: Fri Feb 21, 2003 0:22pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Comfort Hi, Christine - In a message dated 2/21/03 1:50:04 PM Eastern Standard Time, cforsyth@v... writes: > Dear Group, > > In the Scriptures, there is a mention of Admirable Friends and > Association with the Wise, as being SO important that it is "the > whole of the holy life". Why so? How can one can tell who is Wise? > What is 'association with' - can reading posts on various Yahoo > groups really be put in that category? > ------------------------------------------------- Howard: With respect to your last question, I'd answer "Most likely, or at least for the most part, no." As far as *who* is "wise", I'd say its anyone who is 1) a good person, and 2) "further along" than we are. I personally think the most likely place to find such kalyanamitta, though certainly not exclusively, is at a monastery with monks who have a fine reputation for gentleness, serious practice, and good teaching skills. --------------------------------------------------- > Maybe our being born in these times, with access to computer > technology, is a double-edged sword. On the one hand, there is easy > access to viewing The Truthspeaker's words, but, on the other hand, > the Sangha that many of us have access to is just squiggles on a > screen. It is left up to the individual to assess the truth or > otherwise of anything that comes in through the eye door - and how > much of it is Wrong View? > > The Blessed One corrected Ananda when he said Admirable Friends were > half the holy life and, instead, He emphasised that Admirable > Friends were the whole of the holy life. One reason could be that > contact with committed Dhamma friends is the best way to keep the > Dhamma in the forefront of one's mind. Are there other benefits? In > everyday life, a friend is someone before whom I can think aloud, > that is, someone who cares for me, wishes the best for me, and with > whom I can have a transparent relationship with no fear of judgment > and no need to pretend to be better or worse than I am. ------------------------------------------------------ Howard: Yes. This is why the person needs to be a good person, a gentle and loving person, and one who has wisdom. ------------------------------------------------------ > > I once asked a question about courage in the scriptures ... perhaps > what I was also looking for was 'comfort in the scriptures'. If we > are, for example, having a miserable experience in our work lives, > who can we turn to? > --------------------------------------------------- Howard: Any loving, intelligent, loyal, and wise friend, and not necessarily a Buddhist. ------------------------------------------------- DSG has usually somewhere over 270 members, but > > most are unknown and don't communicate. Of those that do post, many > [have so little trust that they] use false names and email tags which > don't even reveal their gender. [Can you imagine any group meeting > in real life covered in cloaks and masks, mostly silent, some using > voice distortion devices, and saying "trust us, we're your admirable > friends"?] > ------------------------------------------------ Howard: Christine, this is just a discussion group - a wonderful one, but basically only that. If you get to know a few of the folks sufficiently to trust and like them, and to have them as "distant friends", that's a terrific "extra". There are several people on this and other lists whom I have come to value considerably, in differing ways, as I'm sure you have. But direct, personal contact is what is needed for urgent matters, I think. ------------------------------------------------ > > I have occasionally had the experience of things not going right in > life, and of wanting to obtain guidance and talk things over from a > buddhist perspective. This doesn't happen because confidentiality > and trust are two major parts of friendship, and my only option would > be to become a public diversion by posting to a list with hundreds > of unknown members. > ------------------------------------------------- Howard: So don't write on those matters to the list as a whole. Write to one or two or three list members, separately or as a group, people in whom you have the needed trust. ------------------------------------------------- > It seems it is 'bad form' and inconsiderate for a Buddhist to mention > their own worries. > --------------------------------------------------- Howard: What part of the canon do you find *that* in? ;-) -------------------------------------------------- 'Sometime', 'somewhere' you performed the kamma > > and current suffering is your 'just deserts'. Never > completely figured out how this works with anatta. Never completely > figured out how worldly suffering is > 'all just a story, just thinking'. It's feels unbearably real. --------------------------------------------------- Howard: Suffering is suffering! And compassion is what is called for in response, whatever one's "technical" theories might be! I've been reading about a lovely, 17-year-old Mexican girl who came to the U.S. (to Duke University Hospital) to receive a heart and lung transplant, for without it she had only six months to live. Some moron mismatched the organs, and her body immediately started to reject the transplanted organs. Miraculously, a day or so later they obtained and transplanted correct organs, but she is now in grave condition, and may not make it. This is heart breaking! Was her original faulty bodily condition the consequence of intentional action of the young lady in this or a previous lifetime? I don't know, but I would assume probably so. But so what? We all have aeons of bad deeds in our history! All the easier to empathize! Her circumstances are heartbreaking whatever the kammic facts may be. And which of us, if we could do so, wouldn't try to take way the suffering of this child and of her parents!! ---------------------------------------------------- I > > can't see any 'protection' in buddhism either. Looking back, I'm > sure that prayer used to often work, whatever the mechanism. > --------------------------------------------------- Howard: I've found great comfort in Buddhism. But that was for *myself*, when it was erroneously thought that I had colon cancer. For that, deciding not to desire, not to hope, not even for continued life, worked beautifully and completely for me. But if someone else, someone dear to me had been involved instead of me, this skillful means would likely not have been sufficient. But I sincerely believe that for others who have practiced longer and better than I, it *would* work. I think that the practice of the Buddha's Dhamma is a sure means (I actually believe it to be *the* means) to bring us to the point that suffering is removed from our life. --------------------------------------------------- > > I can't seem to find anything much in the teachings about 'comfort' > or 'peace of > mind' - except those references to the practically unattainable > Nibanna, so > far in the future for most that it isn't any comfort at all. Formal > meditation seems to have some emotional benefits, at least as > a 'wellness tool'. Apart from that, mostly I feel Buddhism > currently seems to offer stoicism -'no control' and 'endurance'. > --------------------------------------------------- Howard: I don't think that such suppression, such closing off of feeling, is Buddhism at all! There is no joy or peace to be found in a dried out, hollowed out husk of a person. Comfort comes from the Dhamma in many ways. I mentioned one way above, with regard to consciously avoiding wanting things to be a particular way. Comfort comes from seeing that nothing has substance, nothing lasts, and that nothing is worthwhile clinging to (whereas all sentient beings are worthy of loving!). Comfort comes from the calm that grows out of deep concentration. It comes from the joy of metta and the other divine abidings. There is *so* much comfort to be found. ---------------------------------------------------- > > > metta, > Christine > > =========================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 19808 From: rjkjp1 Date: Fri Feb 21, 2003 9:48pm Subject: Re: [dsg] (2)Anattta and Kamma and Conventional Events: A Brief Comment In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "m. nease" wrote: > Hi Rob, > > Really outstanding post. Can you cite from the texts on "No control and > powerlessness is the sign of anatta"? ___ Dear Mike, Thanks. There are quite a few areas where this is inferred or made explicit: "It is not-self on account of the insusceptibility to the exercise of power,. It is not self for four reasons, that is, in the sense of voidness, of having no owner-master, of having no overlord, and of opposing self" (see vis. note 3 xxi) "Those same five aggregates are anatta because of the words 'what is painful is no self' Why? Because there is no exercising power over them. The mode of insusceptibilty to having power exercised over them is the characteristic of anatta" sammohavinodani 60. Here is another about how anatta is understood: "the characteristic of no-self does not appear owing to not keeping in mind, not penetrating the resolution into the various elements (nanadhatuvinbbhoga) owing to its being concealed by compactness.... But when resolving of the compact (ghanavinibbhoga) is effected by resolution into the various elements, the characteristic of anatta appears in accordance with its true essential nature" Sammohavinodani59-60) Another quote worth remembering is one by you that Ken highlighted: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/17299 ""I thought Mike's comment was very deep: "'I' don't mind giving up the idea of self, just so long as 'I'm' allowed to choose to do so (and receive the credit)...!" RobertK I think this could be very useful but > have no direct textual collaboration (sorry if I've missed, forgotten or > overlooked this in previous posts). > > In Pali, I've found for 'powerless': abala; dubbala; asamattha; sattihiina > (haven't had time to search for these in the texts yet). Do we have any > Pali for 'no control'? > > Thank you, sir, > > mike > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: > Sent: Friday, February 21, 2003 1:21 PM > Subject: [dsg] (2)Anattta and Kamma and Conventional Events: A Brief Comment > > > Dear Ray, Howard and Dharam, > As I said before kamma is a main conditioning factor and hence a core > aspect of understanding anatta, no-self. > In an earlier post I quoted the Dhammapada atthakatha: > > http://www.vipassana.info/f.htm#threegroupsof > In this a farmer tied a straw rope round > the neck of the ox and set fire to it, and the ox died. ""On account > of > this evil deed the, farmer had suffered for a long time in niraya, > and in serving out the remaining part of his punishment, he had been > burnt to death in the last seven existences." > Then the Buddha spoke in verse as follows: > Verse 127. Not in the sky, nor in the middle of the ocean, nor in the > cave of a mountain, nor anywhere else, is there a place, where one > may escape from the consequences of an evil deed. > > At the end of the discourse all the bhikkhus attained Sotapatti > Fruition. > _____ > Dharam you asked: ""Why should we be concerned with concepts such > as 'punishment' for the old farmer for past misdeeds?"" > > Often in the suttas the Buddha teaches the Dhamma in conventional > terms (vohara vacana) and so refers to human beings and animals etc. > Certainly, as you realise, these have no reality and are merely > concepts used for convenience. In the case of such terms as > punishment (unpleasant result) we know that in the true sense there > is no one > who receives results but that results arise by > conditions: From the > Visuddhimagga 172"Experiencer is a convention for mere > arising of fruit (vipaka);" > And Vis. XIX20 "There is no doer of a deed Or one who reaps the deeds > result: Phenomena alone flow on- No other view than this is right." > This is basic Dhamma and I am glad you bought it up as otherwise we > might turn away from the stories in the Dhammapada of Jataka > commentaries not realising their profundity. > > Indeed you write: > "How is the the seeming attention paid to mythical issues consistent > with the expectation that we should test any teaching against > reality? [The stories of the farmer, Maha Mogallana etc. and > references to devas etc.]" > > In part I think this is answered above but to clarify further. We may > think of devas and such as mythical but the greatest myth is the idea > that `we' exist now. Thus when I > read the Dhammapada or the Jataka I look at it in this > way, which is also the way that life is here and now. > The Abhidhamma- which should inform our understanding whenever we > consider- shows us that > what we thought were trees and people and animals and devas > even ourself are only conditioned, > evanescent aggregates (khandas). I think knowing this we read the > story in a > different way: That it is that the story > is an illustration of the workings of conditionality, > especially that condition called kamma. > You further ask: > "How is concern about kamma consistent with concentrating on what is > just occuring in the moment?" > > Well when there is concentrating on the present this can be with > right view or wrong view. Someone may know breath or subtle > sensations in the body or heat or seeing but with no insight. > > So one who has some background in Dhamma knows - at least > theoretically - that "The mental and material are really here, but > here there is no human being to be found,for it is void and merely > fashioned like a doll just suffering piled up like grass and > sticks"(visuddimagga xvii31). > > And further than this one must know that nama(mentality) and rupa > (matter) are conditioned to arise by conditions such as kamma. > > Now we cannot know what kamma done in what life produced this momnt > of seeing consciousness. It could have been kamma done 100,000 > millions of aeons ago that was the dominant condition. But I believe > developed insight can see how conditions work. "The succession of > kamma and its result is only [fully]clear in its true nature to the > Buddha's . But the succession of kamma and its result can be known in > part by one practising insight" Vis. Xix17 > > > Back to the present moment: Didn't we, before we heard Dhamma, think > that `our' body and mind, which we all know are here now, were > something good? But in fact they are killers: "therefore the wise > should see the aggregates (the five khandas, nama and rupa) as > murderers." Visuddhimagga XiV230 > When we talk about such matter(ruap) as the eyebase, earbase etc > which are produced by kamma (done in past lives) it is again the same > as discussing anatta. "All formed bases should be regarded as having > no provenance and no destination. For the do not come from anywhere > prior to their arrival nor do they go anywhere after their fall. On > the contrary, before their rise they had no individual essence and > after their fall their individual essence is completely dissolved. > And they occur without mastery been exercisable over them since they > exist dependent on conditions and in between the past and future". > > No control and powerlessness is the sign of anatta. And again this > relates to right insight into the present moment. Someone with wrong > understanding will try to control or change the present moment rather > than insighting it as it is now, rather than understanding the > conditionality of each moment. > > Back to the story about the farmer: "At the end of the discourse all > the bhikkhus attained Sotapatti Fruition." > We might wonder how such an apparently simple story could lead > directly to enlightenment. It is because this discourse teaches > conditionality and anatta - and for those with accumulations must > lead to insight into the conditioned nature of this moment. > > Dharam: "I guess I am looking more for logical explanations, instead > of > quotation from suttas, to buttress a viewpoint. Thanks." > > I hope this is along the lines of what you are looking for. Happy to > clarify if you wish. > RobertK > > 19809 From: Date: Fri Feb 21, 2003 10:22pm Subject: Re: [dsg] (2)Anattta and Kamma and Conventional Events: A Brief Comment "On account of this evil deed the farmer had suffered for a long time in niraya" Hi all, Isn't suffering a cause, not a result? Unpleasant body feeling is a result but suffering is an unpleasant mental feeling with dosa and moha and these are javana and arise due to conditioning factors other than kamma. Larry 19810 From: rjkjp1 Date: Fri Feb 21, 2003 10:29pm Subject: Re: [dsg] (2)Anattta and Kamma and Conventional Events: A Brief Comment --Dear Mike, I overlooked the last part of your post: -In Pali, I've found for 'powerless': abala; dubbala; asamattha; > sattihiina > > (haven't had time to search for these in the texts yet). Do we > have any > > Pali for 'no control'? " ________ I wrote this a while back based on the Dhammapada: The Buddha said (my translation): 279: "Sabbe dhamma anattati, yada paññaya passati; atha nibbindati dukkhe, esa maggo visuddhiya"ti. All dhammas are not-self: when one sees this with insight then one is detached (or disenchanted, nibbindati)from dukkha, This is the Path (magga)to Purity (visuddhi). The commentary says: Tattha sabbe dhammati pañcakkhandha eva adhippeta. Here(tattha)by all (sabbe)phenomena (dhammati), five aggregates (pancakkhandha) is meant (adhippeta). Anattati "ma jiyantu ma miyantu"ti vase vattetum na sakkati avasavattanatthena anatta attasuñña assamika anissarati attho. Are not-self (anattati) because Birth(jiyantu), decay and death (miyantu) are not able to have power exercised over them (vase vattetum na). In the sense of powerlessness( avasavattanatthena ) anatta, void of self (attasuñña ). RobertK In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1 " wrote: > In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "m. nease" wrote: > > Hi Rob, > > > > Really outstanding post. Can you cite from the texts on "No > control and > > powerlessness is the sign of anatta"? > ___ > Dear Mike, > Thanks. There are quite a few areas where this is inferred or made > explicit: "It is not-self on account of the insusceptibility to the > exercise of > power,. It is not self for four reasons, that is, in the sense of > voidness, of having no owner-master, of having no overlord, and of > opposing self" (see vis. note 3 xxi) > "Those same five aggregates are anatta because of the words 'what is > painful is no self' Why? Because there is no exercising power over > them. The mode of insusceptibilty to having power exercised over them > is the characteristic of anatta" sammohavinodani 60. > > Here is another about how anatta is understood: > "the characteristic of no-self does not appear owing to not keeping > in mind, not penetrating the resolution into the various elements > (nanadhatuvinbbhoga) owing to its being concealed by compactness.... > But when resolving of the compact (ghanavinibbhoga) is effected by > resolution into the various elements, the characteristic of anatta > appears in accordance with its true essential nature" > Sammohavinodani59-60) > > Another quote worth remembering is one by you that Ken highlighted: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/17299 > ""I > thought Mike's comment was very deep: "'I' don't mind giving up the > idea of self, just so long as 'I'm' allowed to choose to > do so (and receive the credit)...!" > RobertK > > I think this could be very useful but > > have no direct textual collaboration (sorry if I've missed, > forgotten or > > overlooked this in previous posts). > > > > > > > > Thank you, sir, > > > > mike > > > > Weight Age Gender Female Male 19811 From: abhidhammika Date: Fri Feb 21, 2003 10:31pm Subject: Re: Attention Suan: Thanks, Robert Dear Robert Thank you for your kind alert. It is due to the suspension of my website and web e-mail by the hosting service provider. I myself knew the situation only last night when I opened the website as my e-mails, including the one from you, did not arrive. I thought that the hosting service provider would send me a Renewal Reminder in advance. But, they didn't. They just suspended the hosting services including e-mail service. I have notified them of my intention to renew their hosting service. I am waiting for their reply. For the time being, please kindly use my dial-up e-mail service: suanluzaw@a... With kind regards, Suan ------------------------------------- Hi Suan, I tried replying to your message and attaching the paper (only 250K after zipping) but my message kept getting kicked back. The error message is quite cryptic, but I think that I am being treated as "SPAM" by your email system. Please email me another email address for me to use. Metta, Rob M :-) PS: Our company just installed a SPAM filter, but I don't think that it would block outgoing messages. I even tried setting up a new Yahoo! Mail address and send it out from there; same problem. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult " wrote: 19812 From: Date: Fri Feb 21, 2003 7:34pm Subject: Re: [dsg] No-self, no-control, from Visuddhimagga Hi All The following quote's from the Visuddhimagga, Chapter 18, # 31... "Therefore, just as a marionette is void, soulless, and without curiosity, and while it walks and stands merely through the combination of strings and wood, yet it seems as if it had curiosity and interestedness, so too, this mentality-materiality is void, soulless, and without curiosity, and while it walks and stands merely through the combination of the two together, yet it seems as if it had curiosity and interestedness. This is how it should be regarded. Hence the ancients said: The mental and material are really here, But here there is no human being to be found, For it is void and merely fashioned like a doll, Just suffering piled up like grass and sticks." So according to the Visuddhimagga we cannot even be curious or interested in things...in the highest sense. Apparently there are just conditions pushing other conditions along. If it is regarded that "I" am doing it, it is self-view and delusion guiding that thinking. Virtually all the time for us unenlightened one's, it is self-view and delusion guiding thought and therefore an overwhelming sense of self control arises and persists. TG 19813 From: Eddie Lou Date: Sat Feb 22, 2003 2:27am Subject: Re: [dsg] A Book to everyone>> Hi, Kiana, You have come to the right place to learn about the closest model about truth, instead of being mired in ignorance, which is should I say inherent in all of us. Human nature (pathetic - pettiness, jealousy and selfishness in a race to be even the last to be laid off in a workplace, the list goes on and on) is dangerous but once you learn more about how it comes about from Buddhism's perspective, you will automatically and naturally love to learn more about Buddhism. But no hatred though, that is so great about Buddhism. It is also called unnatural or should I say 'Un - human nature'. I agree with you as I see this human nature is here to stay, it has been like that before, is now and will be so in the future. Those who are lucky enough to get to know the truth will escape from this repetitious, vicious cycle we are in - called in Pali - Samsara, driven by aggregate of all our own action or Kamma. If you are new to these Pali terms, do not worry you will learn at your own pace. No hurry, Buddhism is very gentle and warm. By the way, personally I do not agree or like any religion, which is or can be like groupie, ganging together, I consider Buddhism not a religion though, but a truth seeking. I mean the real truth. Because you have to go against your natural (animalistic ?) tendency. The early you slowly realize the better and you will find true Inner tranquility - even if just occassional very rewarding. Stick around with us who are also looking for that truth. I myself would like to verify if it is really true or not. Thanks, Metta, Eddie --- Star Kid wrote: > Dear everyone, > > I am Kiana. During these holidays I read a book > about > Buddha. It is "Ten Lifes of the Buddha". I really > want > to introduce these book to all of you. Because it is > very meaningful, and it is written two thousand > years > ago! > > There can be many things changed in between two > thousand years, but one thing won't change for a > really long time is - human nature and the good & > bad > qualities of humans. > > In that book, there are many stories, the one that I > like the most is "Mahajanaka the Lost Prince". It is > about the king who died and the elder prince will be > the king but he was jealous of his brother's > popularity and tried to kill him. > > This is human nature. Even nowadays, there are many > people jobless and they are fighting for one job, > trying to kick the other out and job on his own. > > I think nothing will be more horrible than human > nature. > > There are more stories and pictures in this book. I > think you will enjoy it when you are reading this > book. > > Love, > Kiana 19814 From: Eddie Lou Date: Sat Feb 22, 2003 2:35am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Kamma and Conventional Events: A Brief Comment Correct me if I am wrong. I think NEO Swee Boon means to say "But if a person > is at the WTC on 911 and there is no supporting > vipaka for his > untimely death, he would still survive." that person will just happen not be at the disaster location at that bad time. There will something (say delay, time conflict or for any kind of reason - look so supernatural or superstitious - but actually not so but simple cause and effect at work. Some use "Condition" and I must admit I am not so knowledgeable yet. Eddie --- "nidive " wrote: > Hi Howard, > > > How did the prior bad deeds put them where they > were on 9-11 so > that > > they would fall victim to the attack? Did the > kamma seeds know > about > > the upcoming attack!? > > The kamma seeds obviously did not put them where > they were on 911. > If it did, then it would contradict Sivaka sutta > (whatever happens > is all caused by what was done in the past). > > They were there because of cetana (read new kamma). > They were not > there because of vipaka (results of kamma). > > The victims' presence at the WTC on 911 was not > caused by what was > done in the past. > > A person's absence at the WTC on 911 was also not > caused by what was > done in the past. > > Is the Buddha's presence at the foot of the mountain > where Devadatta > threw down the huge boulder intending to kill the > Buddha caused by > what was done in the past? Certainly not. It is > caused by cetana > (read new kamma) by way of conascent > kamma-condition. > > A Buddha cannot be killed by the assault of another > person. Why? > Because there is no supporting vipaka for such a > thing to happen. > > Vipaka cannot cause someone to be at the WTC on 911. > But if a person > is at the WTC on 911 and there is no supporting > vipaka for his > untimely death, he would still survive. You might > think this to be > very unlikely, but the results of kamma is > imponderable. > > That is why it is said: > > 'Of kamma I am constituted. Kamma is my inheritance; > kamma is > the matrix; kamma is my kinsman; KAMMA IS MY REFUGE. > Whatever kamma > I perform, be it good or bad, to that I shall be > heir.' > > Regards, > NEO Swee Boon 19815 From: connie Date: Sat Feb 22, 2003 6:30am Subject: Re: Comfort Hi, Christine ~ Ok if I think out loud with you? Thanissaro's article at http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/modern/thanissaro/authenticity.html talks about: "Those factors, listed in SN LV.5, are: association with people of integrity, listening to the true Dhamma, appropriate attention, and practice in accordance with the Dhamma. " It's a good article and speaks to some of the points you brought up. Where I come from, if you were 'in bad form', they'd smile and say (roughly translated), "Oh, the obstacles and devils are coming for you! Congratulations! What a great opportunity!" (and tell you to chant more). The obstacles/devils are any hindrance to your practice... you get a flat tire on your way to the meditation center, you're discouraged because your life's not going the way you like, whatever the 'story, just thinking' is. Not so much that what happens is 'your just desserts' as it is a chance to take another look at the buffet and pick another dessert. You have to eat some of everything on your plate? I say we practice for death... whether it is the death of the next instant or the one at the end of our life, because how we die determines so much of the next life/story. That's what I get from the patisandhi-, bhavanga- and cuti-cittas all taking the same maranasanna-nimitta from the last episode. That it is the anatta-ness and impermanence that provide the hope because if the conditions are right, Anything can happen. Some days, dropping dead has been the best Anything I could hope for and sooner or later I remember that this life is the most precious one imaginable. It's dukkha? Even when the so-called 8-winds are blowing my way and I could live happily ever after? Whoa! I want out. Oh, I forgot... I'm already out. How's that possible? I'm already Deathless and just too stubborn to admit it? For one thing, I live in the past. By the time I've made up my mind about what's going on, it's over. "The mind is the fore runner" and I lag behind. I think I'm doing something about what comes next, but it's a joke. That no control thing. How do I get close enough to the present to See that there is really just cause and condition, vipaka-namakkhandha and katatta-rupa or whatever it is? Because I think the answer to me lies in kamma. I just don't quite know how to go about setting up conditions, trying to organize the future. Visible object appeared to be seen. Mind started to run with it. Kamma jumped in. Depending on how far gone in javana the thought was determines when the vipaka will come in... this life, next one or some othertime before The End. The other option is that nothing comes of it... ahosi, washed out kamma, no vipaka. Anything there? Dead-end. Oh. Where to be reborn? Suddhavasa plane? I hear you get in the saddha, viriya, sati, samadhi or panna line to get there. Sorry. I meant to go to bed last night and got all stuck in a book. But that's how I think to myself. Small wonder I'm still here. peace, connie 19816 From: m. nease Date: Sat Feb 22, 2003 9:37am Subject: Re: [dsg] (2)Anattta and Kamma and Conventional Events: A Brief Comment Excellent, Robert--just what I was looking for. Thanks-- mike p.s. I'm not familiar with Sammohavinodani--part of the Abhidhammapitaka? Thanks again... ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Friday, February 21, 2003 10:29 PM Subject: Re: [dsg] (2)Anattta and Kamma and Conventional Events: A Brief Comment --Dear Mike, I overlooked the last part of your post: -In Pali, I've found for 'powerless': abala; dubbala; asamattha; > sattihiina > > (haven't had time to search for these in the texts yet). Do we > have any > > Pali for 'no control'? " ________ I wrote this a while back based on the Dhammapada: The Buddha said (my translation): 279: "Sabbe dhamma anattati, yada paññaya passati; atha nibbindati dukkhe, esa maggo visuddhiya"ti. All dhammas are not-self: when one sees this with insight then one is detached (or disenchanted, nibbindati)from dukkha, This is the Path (magga)to Purity (visuddhi). The commentary says: Tattha sabbe dhammati pañcakkhandha eva adhippeta. Here(tattha)by all (sabbe)phenomena (dhammati), five aggregates (pancakkhandha) is meant (adhippeta). Anattati "ma jiyantu ma miyantu"ti vase vattetum na sakkati avasavattanatthena anatta attasuñña assamika anissarati attho. Are not-self (anattati) because Birth(jiyantu), decay and death (miyantu) are not able to have power exercised over them (vase vattetum na). In the sense of powerlessness( avasavattanatthena ) anatta, void of self (attasuñña ). RobertK In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1 " wrote: > In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "m. nease" wrote: > > Hi Rob, > > > > Really outstanding post. Can you cite from the texts on "No > control and > > powerlessness is the sign of anatta"? > ___ > Dear Mike, > Thanks. There are quite a few areas where this is inferred or made > explicit: "It is not-self on account of the insusceptibility to the > exercise of > power,. It is not self for four reasons, that is, in the sense of > voidness, of having no owner-master, of having no overlord, and of > opposing self" (see vis. note 3 xxi) > "Those same five aggregates are anatta because of the words 'what is > painful is no self' Why? Because there is no exercising power over > them. The mode of insusceptibilty to having power exercised over them > is the characteristic of anatta" sammohavinodani 60. > > Here is another about how anatta is understood: > "the characteristic of no-self does not appear owing to not keeping > in mind, not penetrating the resolution into the various elements > (nanadhatuvinbbhoga) owing to its being concealed by compactness.... > But when resolving of the compact (ghanavinibbhoga) is effected by > resolution into the various elements, the characteristic of anatta > appears in accordance with its true essential nature" > Sammohavinodani59-60) 19817 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Sat Feb 22, 2003 10:16am Subject: RE: [dsg] Janice's letter (long posts with Jataka tale) Hi Janice, > -----Original Message----- > From: Star Kid [mailto:starkidsclub@y...] > > How big was the real Buddha? I don't know how big the Buddha was. I haven't come across the description of how tall the Buddha was (maybe others can help). There were many descriptions about the Buddha, but I don't remember seeing how tall. > What color was the real Buddha? His skin color is said to be golden, probably not the metallic golden that you see in temples, but it is said to be brightly golden. > Does the Buddha really have its own language? The Buddha is said to speak the language known as Maghadha, which was a live, spoken language 2,500 years ago. Now, this language is no longer spoken generally, but it is used primarily to transmit the teachings of the Buddha. It is known as Pali (instead of Maghadha). Besides learning about the physical characteristics of the Buddha, and the language he spoke, we also learn that the Buddha's teachings are very deep. The Buddha taught us all kinds of stuffs, including why people are happy and miserable. He also taught what is good (causes that would be good results) and what is bad (causes that would bring bad results). For example, this tale (from : Matakabhatta Jataka (Jataka No. 18) The Goat That Laughed and Wept One day, while the Buddha was staying in Jetavana, some bhikkhus asked him if there was any benefit in sacrificing goats, sheep, and other animals as offerings for departed relatives. "No, bhikkhus," replied the Buddha. "No good ever comes from taking life, not even when it is for the purpose of providing a Feast for the Dead." Then he told this story of the past. Long, long ago, when Brahmadatta was reigning in Baranasi, a brahman decided to offer a Feast for the Dead and bought a goat to sacrifice. "My boys," he said to his students, "take this goat down to the river, bathe it, brush it, hang a garland around its neck, give it some grain to eat, and bring it back." "Yes, sir," they replied and led the goat to the river. While they were grooming it, the goat started to laugh with a sound like a pot smashing. Then, just as strangely, it started to weep loudly. The young students were amazed at this behavior. "Why did you suddenly laugh," they asked the goat, "and why do you now cry so loudly?" "Repeat your question when we get back to your teacher," the goat answered. The students hurriedly took the goat back to their master and told him what had happened at the river. Hearing the story, the master himself asked the goat why it had laughed and why it had wept. "In times past, brahman," the goat began, "I was a brahman who taught the Vedas like you. I, too, sacrificed a goat as an offering for a Feast for the Dead. Because of killing that single goat, I have had my head cut off 499 times. I laughed aloud when I realized that this is my last birth as an animal to be sacrificed. Today I will be freed from my misery. On the other hand, I cried when I realized that, because of killing me, you, too, may be doomed to lose your head five hundred times. It was out of pity for you that I cried." "Well, goat," said the brahman, "in that case, I am not going to kill you." "Brahman!" exclaimed the goat. "Whether or not you kill me, I cannot escape death today." "Don't worry," the brahman assured the goat. "I will guard you." "You don't understand," the goat told him. "Your protection is weak. The force of my evil deed is very strong." The brahman untied the goat and said to his students, "Don't allow anyone to harm this goat." They obediently followed the animal to protect it. After the goat was freed, it began to graze. It stretched out its neck to reach the leaves on a bush growing near the top of a large rock. At that very instant a lightning bolt hit the rock, breaking off a sharp piece of stone which flew through the air and neatly cut off the goat's head. A crowd of people gathered around the dead goat and began to talk excitedly about the amazing accident. A tree deva[5] had observed everything from the goat's purchase to its dramatic death, and drawing a lesson from the incident, admonished the crowd: "If people only knew that the penalty would be rebirth into sorrow, they would cease from taking life. A horrible doom awaits one who slays." With this explanation of the law of kamma the deva instilled in his listeners the fear of hell. The people were so frightened that they completely gave up the practice of animal sacrifices. The deva further instructed the people in the Precepts and urged them to do good. Eventually, that deva passed away to fare according to his deserts. For several generations after that, people remained faithful to the Precepts and spent their lives in charity and meritorious works, so that many were reborn in the heavens. The Buddha ended his lesson and identified the Birth by saying, "In those days I was that deva." The Buddha also taught other profound teachings. He taught that when there is seeing, what is seen is an element - just something that appears to the eyes, and what sees is also another element - just seeing which sees what is seen. But we misunderstood what those elements are. We misunderstand that what is seen as something else, like I see a person, a horse, a toy, etc. We also misunderstand what sees: we take it that it is I who sees - we don't understand that seeing is also just another element. Without hearing the Buddha's teachings, we cannot understand this, but if we hear, and truly understand what he says, then reaching the end of suffering becomes possible for us. I hope you haven't fallen asleep by the time you get here :-). Hope you write again. kom 19818 From: buddhatrue Date: Sat Feb 22, 2003 10:00am Subject: Re: Hello --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Star Kid wrote: > > Hi James, > > I'm Hilary and I'm 11.I've read the letters you've > written. You seem like some type of Buddhism and a > great poet. Can you please answer a couple of > questions on my mind about Buddhism? O.K, first of all > what do buddhists do when they go to temples? I know > they pray but do they do anything like dance,readings, > songs, or things like that? My next question will > probably occur to next year's Chinese New Year.Do > buddhist do anything special during Chinese New Year. > I would love to hear some more things about Buddhism > in the letters you write. > > From, > Hilary > > > P.S - please send me some poems too. Hi Star Kid Hilary! Yes, I would agree with you that I am `some type of Buddhist'. What type that is I don't think I am sure most of the time! ;-) I am also glad that you like my poetry. Since you ask about Buddhist temples, I will attach a poem at the end of this letter that I wrote about my temple. Sorry…it isn't funny though. But I will also include a funny one for you...:-) Well, it already sounds like you know a lot of the things that occur inside a Buddhist temple. But just to clear up two things: There is no dancing and no singing. Monks are not allowed to dance and sing nor are they allowed to watch dancing and singing. This is probably one of the things that non-Buddhists don't understand the most about Buddhist monks because of the close ties in other religions with dancing and singing. Most of the time, dancing and singing are used as a means for people to have fun and forget their problems. Monks are not supposed to have fun at the expense of forgetting what is going on in their lives and minds. Monks do chant, which could be considered a type of singing, but it is not really. Chanting isn't done for fun but as a reminder of the Buddha's teachings. Monks are looking for a type of happiness that is deeper than that which comes from dancing and singing. Don't feel sad for monks that they can't dance and sing; you should feel sorry for the rest of us who must have such things in order to be happy. People mainly go to Buddhist temples to talk to the monks, ask questions, learn Buddhism, meditate, and talk with other Buddhists. Probably the most unusual things that people do at my temple are fortune-telling and astrology. I don't know all the details of this, because I don't do it, but there is a cup with wooden sticks that people shake and some of the sticks fall out. By reading those sticks, they will know their fortune from little slips of paper that the sticks tell them to pull out of an altar. I think it is called the "I Ching", but I am not sure. People can also see some of the monks who are trained in Buddhist astrology to have a reading of their astrology chart done for them. I am not sure if this is done too much now because the monk who was really good at it went to a different temple. Buddhists don't do one particular thing for the New Year because it isn't a Buddhist holiday. I will soon be celebrating the Thai New Year at my temple which is also called the Water Celebration. We will splash water on each other to bring in the New Year. So you see, there are many different ways to bring in the New Year…and many New Years. I celebrate New Years all year long! ;-) Half the time, I'm not sure what year it is! ;-) Metta, James Reflections of Wat Promkunaram by James Mitchell Buddha statues surround friends welcoming me fortress of red carpet and sweet incense smoke quiet solitude and golden glow countenance forever in meditation reflections of the Buddha within. Monks surround thin figures in saffron robes yellow-orange swirling in edges of sight soft voices in foreign tongue coming and going out of bare rooms quiet echoes. Time surrounds mysterious mystery mind becomes confused time flows differently minute like an hour day like a second time is timeless finally realize clocks must lie. Thoughts surround pesky flies on a picnic day when they go away deep meditation breathing transparent body shifting elements with shifting mind pain in legs and back burns fire hot hotter and hotter and fire and fire then slowly cools campfire leaving bare, cold ground sitting in a cool blanket of conquered pain transformed into dancing electricity release...little by little... the galloping desire to move mindful that there is no where to go except to the end. *********** What to Remember in School by Kenn Nesbitt Forget that two times four is eight. Forget the name of every state. Forget the answers on the test. Forget which way is east or west. Forget the myths of ancient Rome. Forget to bring your books from home. Forget the words you learned to spell. Forget to hear the recess bell. Forget your homeroom teacher's name. Forget the after-school game. Forget which team's supposed to win. Forget to turn your homework in. Forget the distance to the moon. Forget how many days in June. Forget the capital of France. But don't forget to wear your pants! 19819 From: Date: Sat Feb 22, 2003 11:11am Subject: Re: [dsg] No-self, no-control, from Visuddhimagga Hi TG, You wrote: "Virtually all the time for us unenlightened one's, it is self-view and delusion guiding thought and therefore an overwhelming sense of self control arises and persists." L: I agree; it certainly seems that way. However, I think the experience of "self" is the experience of cittas with roots (consciousness with attraction or aversion and ignorance). As such any rootless citta would be the experience of not-self. As you know, all cittas that are the result (vipaka) of kamma are rootless. So a fair amount of our experience is the experience of anatta; we just don't notice it, I think, because javana cittas are repeated. Paradoxically, the experience of self is a reality, sometimes known as ego, but "self" itself is only a concept and categorized as not real. In a way, the experience of rootless cittas is better than satipatthana, if the satipatthana is with-roots (roots can also be the opposite of lobha, dosa, moha). An arahant's experience is all rootless. Response? Larry 19820 From: rjkjp1 Date: Sat Feb 22, 2003 11:59am Subject: Re: [dsg] No-self, no-control, from Visuddhimagga --- Dear TG, A great quote and your comments too. Yes, there are just mental factors, elements that have no desire to arise etc. but are simply arising by conditions and performing their different functions. Wrong view believes that we are desiring but it is simply a conditioned element, lobha performing its function. Or wrong view believes that we are not desiring while it is only alobha performing its function. RobertK In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, TGrand458@a... wrote: > Hi All > > The following quote's from the Visuddhimagga, Chapter 18, # 31... > > "Therefore, just as a marionette is void, soulless, and without curiosity, > and while it walks and stands merely through the combination of strings and > wood, yet it seems as if it had curiosity and interestedness, so too, this > mentality-materiality is void, soulless, and without curiosity, and while it > walks and stands merely through the combination of the two together, yet it > seems as if it had curiosity and interestedness. This is how it should be > regarded. Hence the ancients said: > The mental and material are really here, > But here there is no human being to be found, > For it is void and merely fashioned like a doll, > Just suffering piled up like grass and sticks." > > So according to the Visuddhimagga we cannot even be curious or interested in > things...in the highest sense. Apparently there are just conditions pushing > other conditions along. If it is regarded that "I" am doing it, it is > self-view and delusion guiding that thinking. Virtually all the time for us > unenlightened one's, it is self-view and delusion guiding thought and > therefore an overwhelming sense of self control arises and persists. > > TG > > > 19821 From: rjkjp1 Date: Sat Feb 22, 2003 0:13pm Subject: Re: Comfort --- Dear Christine, I really liked what Connie said below. Actually when I was in Thailand someone asked me why I was devoted to Buddhism and I said because cuti-citta(death moment) is coming. I think it doesn't matter much whether we are happy or sad in Dhamma; the point is to keep going. Anguttara Nikaya IV.5 Anusota Sutta "And who is the individual who goes against the flow? There is the case where an individual doesn't indulge in sensual passions and doesn't do evil deeds. Even though it may be with pain, even though it may be with sorrow, even though he may be crying, his face in tears, he lives the holy life that is perfect & pure. This is called the individual who goes against the flow. " The first step before giving up the attachment to all sensual pleasures is the giving up of attachment to the wrong view of self and so learning about Abhidhamma , which is the taste of anatta, is basic to this. It cannot happen fast. The true good friend in Dhamma is the Buddha and he is still here for us when we study and contemplate his words. RobertK "Life begins on the other side of despair" Jean-paul Satre, The Flies, 1942 In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "connie" wrote: > Hi, Christine ~ > > Ok if I think out loud with you? > > Thanissaro's article at > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/modern/thanissaro/authenticity.html > talks about: > "Those factors, listed in SN LV.5, are: > association with people of integrity, > listening to the true Dhamma, > appropriate attention, and > practice in accordance with the Dhamma. " > > It's a good article and speaks to some of the points you brought up. > > Where I come from, if you were 'in bad form', they'd smile and say > (roughly translated), "Oh, the obstacles and devils are coming for you! > Congratulations! What a great opportunity!" (and tell you to chant > more). The obstacles/devils are any hindrance to your practice... you > get a flat tire on your way to the meditation center, you're discouraged > because your life's not going the way you like, whatever the 'story, > just thinking' is. Not so much that what happens is 'your just > desserts' as it is a chance to take another look at the buffet and pick > another dessert. You have to eat some of everything on your plate? > > I say we practice for death... whether it is the death of the next > instant or the one at the end of our life, because how we die determines > so much of the next life/story. That's what I get from the patisandhi-, > bhavanga- and cuti-cittas all taking the same maranasanna-nimitta from > the last episode. That it is the anatta-ness and impermanence that > provide the hope because if the conditions are right, Anything can > happen. Some days, dropping dead has been the best Anything I could > hope for and sooner or later I remember that this life is the most > precious one imaginable. It's dukkha? Even when the so-called 8- winds > are blowing my way and I could live happily ever after? Whoa! I want > out. Oh, I forgot... I'm already out. How's that possible? I'm > already Deathless and just too stubborn to admit it? > > For one thing, I live in the past. By the time I've made up my mind > about what's going on, it's over. "The mind is the fore runner" and I > lag behind. I think I'm doing something about what comes next, but it's > a joke. That no control thing. How do I get close enough to the > present to See that there is really just cause and condition, > vipaka-namakkhandha and katatta-rupa or whatever it is? Because I think > the answer to me lies in kamma. I just don't quite know how to go about > setting up conditions, trying to organize the future. > > Visible object appeared to be seen. Mind started to run with it. Kamma > jumped in. Depending on how far gone in javana the thought was > determines when the vipaka will come in... this life, next one or some > othertime before The End. The other option is that nothing comes of > it... ahosi, washed out kamma, no vipaka. Anything there? Dead- end. > Oh. Where to be reborn? Suddhavasa plane? I hear you get in the > saddha, viriya, sati, samadhi or panna line to get there. > > 19822 From: robmoult Date: Sat Feb 22, 2003 0:27pm Subject: Am I Correct? (was Mind Door Process Confusion (a long one)) Hi All, I have been thinking about (mentally proliferating over?) the question I posed earlier: --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult " wrote: > This Sutta explains that the mind "builds" upon what is perceived > (conceptual proliferation). From an Abhidhamma analysis perspective, > how does a mind conceptually profiferate? I am not asking about > stages of mind-door citta-processes here (construction, perception, > conception, designation, classification, judgement), I am asking > about taking a concept as an input to a single mind-door citta- > process and getting a bigger, clearer, more-complete, more-deluded > concept as an output (which of course acts as an input to another > mind-door citta process). I think that I now have a plausable answer. I suspect that it is the cetasika "sanna" that performs this task. Consider that, according to the Atthasalini, this cetasika has the characteristic of "noting" or "perceiving by an act of general conclusion" and a function of "recognizing what has been previously noted" or "making marks as a condition for repeated perception". The mind-door citta-process is simpler than the sense-door citta process. This cittas involved are: - Vibrating and Arresting Bhavanga Cittas - Mind-Door Adverting Citta (same as Determining Citta in Sense-Door Citta-Process) - Seven Javana Cittas (to create kamma) - Two Registration Cittas (optional; included for a "clear" object, not included for an "obscure" object) There is only one place where the "building onto the object" can happen; the mind-door adverting citta. Any task that this citta has to be performed by one of its cetasikas. The cetasikas in this citta are: - Phassa (contact) - Vedana (feeling); neutral feeling in this case - Sanna (perception/recognition) - Cetana (only coordinates, does not "will" in this rootless citta) - Ekaggata (concentration) - Jivitindriya (life faculty) - Manasikara (attention; the arising of wise attention, yoniso manisikara, conditions kusala javana cittas to follow and the arising of unwise attention ayoniso manasikara, conditions akusala javana cittas to follow) - Vitakka (applied thinking) - Vicara (discursive thinking) - Adhimokkha (Determination / Decision) - Viriya (Energy / Effort / Exertion) If we look down this list, Sanna stands out as being responsible for "building the object". A couple of other interesting observations: - Except for the "smile producing citta of an Arahant" (I am still a bit confused about this one), the mind-door adverting citta is the only rootless citta to include the cetasika of viriya (energy / effort / exertion). - The mind-door adverting citta is a functional (kiriya) citta, which means it is not associated with the workings of kamma. Comments? Metta, Rob M :-) 19823 From: robmoult Date: Sat Feb 22, 2003 0:34pm Subject: Re: Attention Suan: Thanks, Robert Hi Suan, Tried twice, but got the same failure notice with this new email address that I got with the previous email address. Please send me a third email address or advise when the first two are functional again. Metta, Rob M :-) 19824 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Sat Feb 22, 2003 1:27pm Subject: RE: [dsg] No-self, no-control, from Visuddhimagga Dear Larry, > -----Original Message----- > From: LBIDD@w... [mailto:LBIDD@w...] > I think the experience > of "self" is the experience of cittas with roots > (consciousness with > attraction or aversion and ignorance). As such > any rootless citta would > be the experience of not-self. I think the citta that truly experiences anattaness of realities are those in javana process, arising with wisdom. Even a vipaka citta experiences realities without delusion, it doesn't comprehend the anattaness of realities. Remember the 3 simile of sanna, citta, and wisdom? In a house with a pile of gold coin (or valuable gems), sanna is like a baby, who knows the shape and color and context of the coin, but doesn't know what the coin is. Citta is like a householder. Not only he knows what the baby knows, but also knows what a coin is. A jeweler is like wisdom. He knows what the baby and the householder know, but he also knows the differences between fake and genuine coins. Panna comprehends all around and penetrates, including anattaness of reality which is not comprehended outside the realm of a Buddha. > lobha, dosa, moha). An > arahant's experience is all rootless. Response? The non-jhanic javana process of an Arahant can be two: 1) Maha-kiriya (with all the factors identical to maha-kusala, including the roots) 2) Hasitupada (the rootless smiling citta of an arahant) The Buddha abides in metta, karuna, mudita, and upekkha, all rooted cittas. The roots of an arahant are different from non-arahants, the roots don't bind the arahants to samsara. kom 19825 From: Date: Sat Feb 22, 2003 4:16pm Subject: RE: [dsg] No-self, no-control, from Visuddhimagga Hi Kom, I thought "root" means "causes a result". When you say an arahant's javana cittas are with roots does that mean they cause results or is root just another name for javana (repeating) cittas? Can panna arise, in a mundane mode, with an assumption of "self"? If so, this is what I meant by saying vipaka cittas are better, experiencially, than satipatthana if satipatthana is with-roots (causes results). I agree panna as in a magga citta would be the best informed. Still, I think true experience is not rare but common because vipaka cittas are true. And, I think what we usually mean by "self" is lobha, dosa, moha (and their opposites) as roots. So, even on a mundane level, we could see what anatta looks like by catching a glimpse of vipaka cittas. Btw, are all objects (arammana) kamma result (vipaka)? Larry 19826 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Sat Feb 22, 2003 4:59pm Subject: RE: [dsg] No-self, no-control, from Visuddhimagga Hi Larry, > -----Original Message----- > From: LBIDD@w... [mailto:LBIDD@w...] > > Hi Kom, > > I thought "root" means "causes a result". When > you say an arahant's > javana cittas are with roots does that mean they > cause results or is > root just another name for javana (repeating) cittas? Root, hetu, means the 6 cetasikas: lobha, dosa, and moha as asobhana hetus, and alobha, adosa, and amoha as the sobhana hetus. The Arahant javanas, except for Hasitupada, always have the two sobhana roots, and sometimes with wisdom as well. Only roots in Kusala and Akusala can cause vipaka: an arahant has only kiriya and vipaka cittas. Roots are also present in some vipaka cittas (like tadalambana, bhavanga, cuti, patisandhi) which we have, and there too, they don't cause results (because they are already results). > Can panna arise, in a mundane mode, with an > assumption of "self"? If so, Yes, but it is more (to me) like, it is panna that still doesn't know that its object is not-self. > Btw, are all objects (arammana) kamma result (vipaka)? > Aramana can be rupas, cittas, cetasikas, nibbana, and concepts. Some rupa that are aramanas arise because of kamma, but they are not called vipaka. Only some cittas and cetasikas are vipaka. Nibbana is unconditioned. Concept doesn't have its own sabhava (doesn't exist), and it is said to be unconditioned (it doesn't rise, doesn't fall). Some will argue that without the mind, there would be no concept. But really, even with the mind, there is still no concept because it doesn't exist. kom 19827 From: Date: Sat Feb 22, 2003 0:16pm Subject: Re: [dsg] No-self, no-control, from Visuddhimagga In a message dated 2/22/2003 11:14:25 AM Pacific Standard Time, LBIDD@w... writes: > Hi TG, > > You wrote: "Virtually all the time for us unenlightened one's, it is > self-view and delusion guiding thought and therefore an overwhelming > sense of self control arises and persists." > > L: I agree; it certainly seems that way. However, I think the experience > of "self" is the experience of cittas with roots (consciousness with > attraction or aversion and ignorance). As such any rootless citta would > be the experience of not-self. As you know, all cittas that are the > result (vipaka) of kamma are rootless. So a fair amount of our > experience is the experience of anatta; we just don't notice it, I > think, because javana cittas are repeated. Paradoxically, the experience > of self is a reality, sometimes known as ego, but "self" itself is only > a concept and categorized as not real. In a way, the experience of > rootless cittas is better than satipatthana, if the satipatthana is > with-roots (roots can also be the opposite of lobha, dosa, moha). An > arahant's experience is all rootless. Response? > > Larry > Hi Larry I think your analysis above is very admirable. But the way I see it, by and large the "reality" of our existence is that we see things as "self." Analyzing what cittas may or may not be actually generating self-view during the minute fractions-of-a-second that they arise and cease; seems to me like analyzing a running automobile engine and saying that the pistons that are not currently being "exploded upon" are not running/driving the engine. Perhaps a technically correct observation, but utterly missing the point of the engine system. Analysis is only for the purpose of making the mind "let go." Its not for the purpose of analysis at all. I think the style of analysis you presented would not help "my" mind "let go." But if it is helping "your" mind "let go," that's great! TG 19828 From: Date: Sat Feb 22, 2003 7:07pm Subject: RE: [dsg] No-self, no-control, from Visuddhimagga H Kom, Thanks for the clarification. I take it hetu doesn't mean causal in all cases. Is lobha considered vipaka if it is experienced objectively? Is the difference between kusala roots and sobhana roots one of mundane and supramudane (lokya, lokuttara)? Why is lobha a root citta? Is it because lobha cetasika is mistaken for a citta (subject)? thanks, Larry 19829 From: Date: Sat Feb 22, 2003 7:22pm Subject: Re: [dsg] No-self, no-control, from Visuddhimagga Hi TG, I agree. Philosophical, abstract analysis is a crutch but maybe it could point someone in the direction of valueing simple attentiveness. It amounts to valueing value-neutral. It's hard to make a case for it. Larry 19830 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sat Feb 22, 2003 8:32pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Abhidhamma Hi Steve, RobM, Sarah, Kom, Howard and All, Steve: Apologies to you and everyone, it has taken a while to respond - worldly conditions, you know.Your reminder that the Abhidhamma was mentioned in the Nun's Pacittiya was great to read, and led to me following up other references. Many thanks. RobM: Missed you too :-) Glad you're active on the dsg again, always look for your posts. Thanks for this one - I feel satisfied after the responses I've received about Abhidhamma being mentioned in Sutta, Vinaya and Commentaries, that it was an integral part of the Dhamma from early in the Buddha's Teaching 'career' - the seventh vassa (rainy season retreat). I'm glad I asked. I'm not yet a great one for the intricacies of Abhidhamma, but I begin to see that it is not possible to understand the Suttas correctly without a basic level of Abhidhammic understanding. I've been browsing your Abhidhamma Class Notes and finding them helpful. Is there any way you can make a link to each of the Chapter headings, so if someone is wanting to look up a particular topic (say Kamma) they can just download the chapter concerned rather than the whole set of lessons? If there isn't, I'm happy the way it is. Sarah: Your posts and the links you provided were extremely helpful. In addition to reading them, I've also read the others in dsg Useful Posts. (The Useful Posts are such a great asset). I'm grateful for the energy you and others have to repeatedly respond on this topic. May you never lose patience. I don't feel discouraged any longer after reading your replies to RobM, Nina and myself on this topic. Thank you. Kom and Howard: Thanks for these bits :-) - H: "for the most part, the Abhidhamma Pitaks contains a detailed systemization of the teachings recorded in the suttas." K: "if we truly know and understand the evidence that is appearing right in front of us, then we are less likely to be shaken: the evidence is indisputable. Wisdom is a truly wonderful quality: it allows us to see things as they are, as the Buddha has taught them." Helps me get things in perspective. :-) metta, Christine 19831 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sat Feb 22, 2003 8:39pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Comfort Hi Howard and all, I think the underlying issue in my post was the loneliness of day to day practice in a non-buddhist country. Mostly I don't doubt the Teachings, they are truth and mostly I notice growth and change towards understanding (at least when I look back). I have a circle of good friends, I have colleagues trained in therapy and counselling skills (as am I), relatives who would be there for me - but all non-buddhist. They do not have the same outlook or understanding of external or internal conditions, there cannot be the same easy discussion without the need to get off-track in explaining buddhist meanings in detail - even situational ethics are a little different. (e.g. in buddhism ignorance of the law brings a greater penalty, work situations are viewed differently (abortion, euthanasia, violence)), and therefore there is no guidance or empathy relating to the Teachings. I get by on Australian and Queensland Law and my profession's Code of Ethics. [BTW,I would say it is more difficult for a woman than a man to just call in for a talk with the local Bhikkhu.] Thanks for getting me to think more deeply about what this List is to me and what expectations are reasonable to hold of other members. I have met over twenty members now, shared meals and tall stories, teasing and laughter, talked around campfires, swam and bushwalked and cooked with some, travelled in planes trains buses and cars in three or four countries with others, shared rooms with others (Hi Azita, and "friends" of Smokey Joe), hugged them all, met spouses and kids, and even had arguments with a few. I've received friendship, guidance and support from all, and a precious enlargement of my understanding of Dhamma from a few. So, I guess it's a little more than a mailing list to me. But I take your point about what is appropriate to post, and hope I never overstep the mark. metta, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: 19832 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sat Feb 22, 2003 8:44pm Subject: Re: Comfort Hi Connie and all, Thinking out loud is fine by me - most of my posts are just thinking out loud to get my thoughts in order and try to gain a little understanding. I appreciate the link to Thanissaro's article on the Authenticity of the Pali Canon. The additional links to all the suttas he uses and the link to Study Guide to Stream Entry in the article are a valuable gift and I thank you. With my limited understanding, I agree that there is really no control, especially that there is *no-one* who can decide, independent of conditions, to do anything. I wonder, then, *who it is* and *how it is* that one gets to seek out and listen to the Dhamma and cultivate Dhamma friends in the first place.. Seems to be a decision and intention and action by *someone* there. Yes - I usually regard the obstacles that arise in life as challenges, but lately this old saying springs to mind more often, "I usually take one day at a time - but just lately several days have attacked me at once." :-) Regarding the cuti-cittas - don't you think the idea that a momentary thought flashing into the mind could send one to an unfortunate rebirth, is terrifying? I'm not disputing the fact, but, just imagining a whole life spent in unselfish service to others and a stray thought takes over at death, and one ends up (very briefly) as a laboratory rat. Is there really anything we can do about it, considering 'no control'? metta, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "connie" 19833 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sat Feb 22, 2003 9:04pm Subject: Re: Comfort Dear Robert, Thank you for the Anusota Sutta "With the Flow" - such a modern expression but a world apart in meaning and consequences. To 'go with the flow' as a colloquial expression meaning to take the easy route free of obstacles, not creating pain for oneself sounds great - but it is, in fact, literally being swept to destruction and continuing the round of suffering rebirths, for the sake of easy 'satisfaction' and 'happiness' now. Something to think about. Perhaps the need for comfort is just the old desire for results, for clarity, for freedom from doubt, for peace that arises and causes unhappiness. When you say "I think it doesn't matter much whether we are happy or sad in Dhamma; the point is to keep going" - your matter-of-factness makes me smile Robert, but, of course, it is so true. Thank you. Death doesn't worry me. You're here one instant and not here the next. But this stuff about the last thought determining the next rebirth does. Somehow most things in Buddhism (once you get used to them) seem to follow a certain logic, a predictable lawfulness, even have a certain justice. But the cuti-citta ... there doesn't seem to be logic, lawfulness or justice - just blind chance. One wonders why consequences could not be closer to the initiating action. Or why there isn't a Statute of Limitations... metta, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1 " wrote: > --- > Dear Christine, > I really liked what Connie said below. Actually when I was in > Thailand someone asked me why I was devoted to Buddhism and I said > because cuti-citta(death moment) is coming. > I think it doesn't matter much whether we are happy or sad in Dhamma; > the point is to keep going. > Anguttara Nikaya IV.5 > Anusota Sutta > "And who is the individual who goes against the flow? There is the > case where an individual doesn't indulge in sensual passions and > doesn't do evil deeds. Even though it may be with pain, even though > it may be with sorrow, even though he may be crying, his face in > tears, he lives the holy life that is perfect & pure. This is called > the individual who goes against the flow. " > > The first step before giving up the attachment to all sensual > pleasures is the giving up of attachment to the wrong view of self > and so learning about Abhidhamma , which is the taste of anatta, is > basic to this. It cannot happen fast. > The true good friend in Dhamma is the Buddha and he is still here for > us when we study and contemplate his words. > RobertK > "Life begins on the other side of despair" Jean-paul Satre, The > Flies, 1942 19834 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Feb 22, 2003 9:19pm Subject: Re: [dsg] FW: Mahaaraahulovaadasutta, Co ,no 5 Nina Thanks for this series of translations from the commentary. It is very useful to have this perspective. It helps me realise how I tend to read into a sutta, based on my own (limited) understanding, things that seem to me like the obvious inference but which are not in fact directly stated. By the way, have you noticed how often a reference in the suttas to sitting cross-legged etc is related to anapanasati in paticular, rather than to any other object of samatha? It would be interesting to see to what extent this holds true elsewhere, and if so, to consider what the significance of this would be. Jon --- nina van gorkom wrote: > ... > almsround after all the (other) bhikkhus had gone. The text states: > (Raahulabhadda.m), a~n~natarasmi.m > rukkhamuule nisinna.m, seated at the foot of a certain tree; he saw > him, as was said, when he came afterwards. > Then, why did he exhort him to develop Mindfulness of Breathing? > Because it > is suitable for sitting. It is said that the Thera had not observed > that the Buddha had spoken about the meditation subject of matter > (ruupakamma.t.thaana.m) to Rahula. He thought that for him who was > seated in > that way, glued on his seat and immovable, this subject of > meditation in a > sitting posture was suitable, and thus he spoke to him in that way. > As regards the word, aanaapaanasati, mindfulness of breathing, he > explained: > "After you have grasped inbreathing and outbreathing, and attained > the fourth or the fifth stage of jhana, and you have developed > vipassana, insight, reach arahatship." > ***** > Nina. 19835 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sat Feb 22, 2003 10:33pm Subject: Re: teachings Hi Star Kid Hilary, Thank you for your letter. So Heidi is a French poodle with a Swiss/German name who lives in the Hong Kong SAR. I hope she doesn't get confused. :-) Did you know that the Buddha spoke Pali? Some of the words he might have used for Dog are: sunakha, suvaana, saarameya, and kukkura. A blessing taught by the Buddha is: "May all beings be happy and safe, May they all have tranquil minds, Whatsoever pulsates with the breath of life - The frail or strong, without exception - The long, the large, the medium-sized, the short, the thin or fat. Those visible, and invisible, those living far away or nearby; Beings who are already born and those yet unborn. May they all be happy!" One of the Buddha's teachings that I like very much is also, at the same time, one I sometimes don't like very much! It's called Kamma. It means that every thought, word and action we mean to do brings a result to us. If I have bad thoughts, words or actions, I don't get away with one single thing, even if I did it in secret. [that's the bit I don't like .:-)]. But it also means that every good thought, every kind word, every kind action is not lost or forgotten. Even if no-one else noticed. [that's the bit I like.] I sometimes think of it as a sort of invisible suitcase ... a Kamma suitcase. If you save a few ants from the bath tub, or share your lunch out of kindness, or stop yourself from stealing something when no-one would ever find out - the record of the actions all get put in the Kamma suitcase. :-) If we gossip about someone, or think mean thoughts, or hit someone, it all gets put in the suitcase also. And whether we want to or not, we always carry the invisible Kamma suitcase with us. But if we don't mean to do something - like if we accidentally wash the bath tub out before we realise there had been ants there, or accidentally sit on someone's glasses and break them - then no record goes in the Kamma suitcase because we didn't mean to do it. The results of all the good and bad words, thoughts and actions start to come out of the suitcase - sometimes straight away, sometimes not - but sooner or later. Then, if it is an unpleasant result that we experience, we need to have patience and understanding. I hope you try to be good! and I hope this makes sense to you Hilary. metta (loving kindness), Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Star Kid wrote: > Dear Christine, > > Thank you for your answer. > Heidi is a French Poodle.(i think that's what you > meant .) Can you please tell me more about the > teachings taught by the the Buddha that could be like > blessings? Are there any other teachings taught by the > Buddha that you really like? > > metta, > Hilary 19836 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Feb 22, 2003 11:25pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Abandoning Herman Thanks for the sutta quote [see below]. You ask: "Are you at odds in any way with the contents of this sutta?" Not at all. But note that the words of the sutta do not go on to explain what is meant here by 'abandon' and 'develop' or, to put it another way, how the 'abandoning' or 'development' in question is to be accomplished. In my view it would be a mistake to assume that these terms are intended to carry their normal everyday meaning. We need to bring to bear what is said elsewhere in the Tipitaka, particularly in the commentary to this sutta (not available in English, unfortunately) to get a correct picture. This is a good example of what is referred to in the texts as a 'teaching in brief'. As to the sort of thing that might be intended here, Nyanatiloka's 'Buddhist Dictionary' states that, according to the Patisambhida Magga , 'abandoning' or 'overcoming' (pahaana) is of 5 kinds: "pahána: 'overcoming', abandoning. There are 5 kinds of overcoming: (1) overcoming by repression (vikkhambhana-pahána), i.e. the temporary suspension of the 5 hindrances (nívarana) during the absorptions, (2) overcoming by the opposite (tadanga-pahána), (3) overcoming by destruction (samuccheda-pahána), (4) overcoming by tranquillization (patipassaddhi-pahána), (5) overcoming by escape (nissarana-pahána)." I have pasted below the detailed description of each kind of abandoning given in the entry. As can be seen from this material, permanent abandoning (i.e., other than the meaning at (1)) and insight ('development'?) are really 2 sides of the same coin. Jon From Nyanatiloka's 'Buddhist Dictionary' (1) "Among these, 'overcoming by repression' is the pushing back of adverse things, such as the 5 mental hindrances (nívarana), etc., through this or that mental concentration (samádhi), just as a pot thrown into moss-clad water pushes the moss aside.... (2) " 'Overcoming by the opposite' is the overcoming by opposing this or that thing that is to be overcome, by this or that factor of knowledge belonging to insight (vipassaná), just as a lighted lamp dispels the darkness of the night. In this way, the personality-belief (sakkáyaditthi) is overcome by determining the mental and corporeal phenomena ... the view of uncausedness of existence by investigation into the conditions... the idea of eternity by contemplation of impermanency ... the idea of happiness by contemplation of misery.... (3) "If through the knowledge of the noble path the fetters and other evil things cannot continue any longer, just like a tree destroyed by lightning, then such an overcoming is called 'overcoming by destruction' " (Vis.M. XXII, 110f.). (4) When, after the disappearing of the fetters at the entrance into the paths, the fetters, from the moment of fruition (phala) onwards, are forever extinct and stilled, such overcoming is called the 'overcoming by tranquillization'. (5) "The 'overcoming by escape' is identical with the extinction and Nibbána" (Pts.M. I. 27). --- "Egberdina " wrote: > Hi Jon and Howard, ... > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an02-019.html > > "Abandon what is unskillful, monks. It is possible to abandon what > is > unskillful. If it were not possible to abandon what is unskillful, > I > would not say to you, 'Abandon what is unskillful.' But because it > is > possible to abandon what is unskillful, I say to you, 'Abandon what > is unskillful.' If this abandoning of what is unskillful were > conducive to harm and pain, I would not say to you, 'Abandon what > is > unskillful.' But because this abandoning of what is unskillful is > conducive to benefit and pleasure, I say to you, 'Abandon what is > unskillful.' > "Develop what is skillful, monks. It is possible to develop what is > skillful. If it were not possible to develop what is skillful, I > would not say to you, 'Develop what is skillful.' But because it is > possible to develop what is skillful, I say to you, 'Develop what > is > skillful.' If this development of what is skillful were conducive > to > harm and pain, I would not say to you, 'Develop what is skillful.' > But because this development of what is skillful is conducive to > benefit and pleasure, I say to you, 'Develop what is skillful.'" ... > > Are you at odds in any way with the contents of this sutta? 19837 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Feb 22, 2003 11:32pm Subject: Re: [dsg] AN IV, 41/Right concentration (was, More on Forest and Lone Dwelling) Howard --- upasaka@a... wrote: ... > SB: > Right Concentration should be understood as: > > "And what is the development of concentration that, when developed & > pursued, leads to the ending of the effluents? > There is the case where a monk remains focused on arising &falling > away with reference to the five clinging-aggregates: 'Such is form, > such its origination, such its passing away. Such is feeling, such > its origination, such its passing away. Such is perception, such its > origination, such its passing away. Such are fabrications, such their > origination, such their passing away. Such is consciousness, such its > origination, such its disappearance.' > This is the development of concentration that, when developed & > pursued, leads to the ending of the effluents. > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an04-041.html > > Jon: > An interesting passage. My paraphrase of it would be as follows: > At any moment of insight into the impermanence (arising and falling > away) of any of the fundamental phenomena (5 khandhas), right > concentration is also being developed. > > I'd be interested to know if this is your reading also. > > Jon > ============================ Howard: This certainly presents "right concentration" as concentrating on the flow of dhammas together with the observing of exactly *what* is arising at any time, and seeing the arising and the falling away. There is no doubt about it. Jon: Could you expand a little on the idea of concentrating on the flow of dhammas. Is it something mentioned in the texts? Just for comparison, the Bhikkhu Bodhi translation reads as follows: "And what is the development of concentration that leads to the destruction of the taints? Here, a monk dwells contemplating rise and fall in the five aggregates subject to clinging: 'Such is form, such its arising, such its passing away. ..." The expression 'dwells contemplating' somehow carries a different emphasis than 'remains focussed on'. As I see it, however, it is the aspect of rising and falling away that is the object of this contemplation/focus, rather than the flow of successive [different] dhammas (i.e., it could be in relation to numerous moments of, say, just visible object or seeing consciousness). Howard: There are other places where, with just as little doubt, the Buddha explicitly defines right concentration as the 1st four jhanas. In fact, he explicitly talks about the 4th jhana, the jhana characterized by equanimity, to be the state of perfect malleability and flexibility of mind for dhammic investigation, and this last may be what can lead us out of an apparent contradiction. Jon: I hope you won't think I'm avoiding the issue here, Howard, but I find it of doubtful value to discuss what is said in particular suttas without having the actual text of the sutta, since so much depends on context. Howard: Of course, one answer is that the Buddha considers the term 'right concentration' to be somewhat flexible. But another is that he considers both definitions to be correct and non-contradictory. There are suttas in which the ability to peruse the flow of dhammas remains unabated in the jhanas. (I quoted one once, but I forget which sutta it was. Jon: I'd be interested to know what these suttas are, if you come across the references anytime. Howard: But one sutta suggestive of what I am saying is the Anupada Sutta ... In that sutta, many ordinary-state abilities are said to remain even up through the jhana of no-thingness. With regard to that the sutta states the following: <> Jon: This sutta [M. 111, 'One by One As They Occurred'] is a sutta describing the 'great wisdom' of Sariputta and how he was able to have insight into states 'one by one as they occurred'. According to the commentary cited in the note to the Bhikkhu Bodhi translation (MLDB), this was 'insight into states in successive order by way of the meditative attainments and the jhana factors'. However, nowhere does the sutta say that 'ordinary-state abilities remain' during the jhanas. I am not aware of any support in the texts for the idea that insight arises while in jhana (as opposed to immediately following a momnet of jhana). Howard: One other post I wrote once along the current lines said the following: <> Also, there are suttas in which the Buddha, himself, or, more correctly, the Bodhisatta, while "in" the 4th jhana, turned his attention to beings passing out of the world and into the world, turned his attention to past lives of his, and finally turned his attention to the uprooting of defilements. Jon: Interesting, and looking forward to the sutta references in question. Jon 19838 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Sun Feb 23, 2003 0:21am Subject: RE: [dsg] No-self, no-control, from Visuddhimagga Hi Larry, > -----Original Message----- > From: LBIDD@w... [mailto:LBIDD@w...] > > H Kom, > > Thanks for the clarification. I take it hetu > doesn't mean causal in all > cases. Hetu paccaya means being conditioned by one or more of the 6 hetus. Any citta/cetasikas conascent with a hetu is conditioned by the hetu. It is causal from the aspect of being conditioning reality. I think the hetus become more pronounced in javana process because it is in javana that the hetus are conascent with cetana that could cause vipaka in the future. If it is javana with asobhana hetus, then the possible kamma then would bring bad results. If it is javana with sobhana hetus, then the possible kamma would bring good results. Either way, this brings more samsara. Furthermore, it is in javana that we accumulate habbits. Even if an asobhana hetu and its conascent cetana don't cause vipaka in the future, it builds habits that would lead to even stronger similar asobhana hetu (in the future) which may be of a strength that would result in vipaka. This may explain why in some of the stories we hear, such subtle and seemingly harmless kilesa is said to lead to bad destinations: even if the kilesa doesn't cause rebirth in the bad destination now, the habits we build may result in stronger kilesa that leads to bad destinations in the future. > > Is lobha considered vipaka if it is experienced > objectively? No, lobha can only arise in javana. It is never vipaka: only akusala. This is unlike the sobhana hetus which could arise in kusala, vipaka, and kiriya: asobhana (akusala) hetus only arise in javana. > > Is the difference between kusala roots and > sobhana roots one of mundane > and supramudane (lokya, lokuttara)? Kusala roots arise in kusala cittas. Sobhana roots arise in kusala, vipaka, and kiriya cittas. Teh differences are in the jati of the conascent states. A supramundane magga has kusala hetu (which by default is also sobhana), where as a supramundane fruition has sobhana hetu (and not kusala, because it is vipaka). > > Why is lobha a root citta? Is it because lobha > cetasika is mistaken for > a citta (subject)? > Why do you say that lobha is a root citta? In reality, lobha has a characteristic distinct from its co-arising citta. Citta/cetasika are just words to communicate their actual differences. kom 19839 From: Star Kid Date: Sun Feb 23, 2003 2:18am Subject: Re: 19177 Dear Kom, Thanks for your letter (19177) your letter is very meaningful. You have told me many things i didn't realize before. The first thing that you said to me in the letter enclosed a good example, I like it very much, because it can help me to understand easier. I agree with you that "the more we have, the more efforts we need to put into protecting it." after reading the example. You are very clever that you can find out 4 points that we can learn from the Jataka story. You influence me to be more interested in Buddhism stories. I am glad that I can learn a lesson from you. Thank you very much. Lastly, I would like to ask if Buddhism believes in ghosts? Kimmy 19840 From: Star Kid Date: Sun Feb 23, 2003 2:20am Subject: 4 noble truths Dear Kom, Hello! My name is Jan Tanyatip Chearavanont. I am half Thai and half Korean but I don't know how to speak or write Korean, I only know how to speak and understand Thai. My dad is Thai and my mom is Korean. I would like to know more about you so plz reply. - Can you tell me some infomation about the 4 noble truths because I am reading a book about it. Thank you Jan Tanyatip Chearavanont 19841 From: Star Kid Date: Sun Feb 23, 2003 2:22am Subject: A reply Dear James: How are you, I didn't mind if your letter is late but just please reply to me. Have you been ill? I've been ill for a few days.Hope you are fine. Why do people want the Buddhist temple to be near? Why do they need help from it? Please write to me. From Janet 19842 From: Star Kid Date: Sun Feb 23, 2003 2:25am Subject: Animals~* Dear Robert, I don't really mind that you didn't answer back. I received alot of presents, for example, I got a programable car, a PS2 and a game called "Capcom VS Marvel". It was my birthday party. Thank you for telling me about Kamma. What is your favorite animal? Mine is the red tail hawk and the rat. I like the hawk because they look so noble and the rat because they're so good at adapting. Is there anything more to know about Kamma and Buddhism? For example, about birthdays, fun and rebirth? Charles 19843 From: robmoult Date: Sun Feb 23, 2003 2:47am Subject: Re: Conditions and Bangkok Meeting Apr 25th (was: I'm Back!) Hi Sarah, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > While you're looking in, I thought of you when I was quoting from U > Narada's "Guide to Conditional Relations". This book from PTS is an > introduction with commentary notes to the Patthana itself and I've always > found it very helpful. I know you would too. In the preface, it talks > about the sense-door and mind-door processes and gives a footnote. In the > footnote, U Narada says "The mental processes were not made up by the > commentators. They took them from proximity condition of the Patthana > expounded by the Buddha. These mental processes are dealt with in the > proximity condition of this Guide." > > As stated, under Proximity Condition (Anantara Paccaya) and Contiguity > condition (Sammanantara Paccaya), the processes are detailed along with > the details discussed before about attainment of extinction, anagami and > arahant fruition consciousness, rupa planes and so on (to indicate that > proximity condition is not destroyed 'by the intervention of materiality'. > > "According to the fixed order of the mental process , the preceding > consciousnesses are related to the subsequent consciousnesses by the force > of proximity condition. this is expounded as "Preceding states are > related to subsequent states.' Also, it is only after the preceding > consciousness ceases that the subsequent consciousness arises. Therefore, > the former is of the past and the latter is of the present. This > difference in time of the two thought-moments is expounded as 'Past state > is relate to present state by proximity condition.' all such knowledge > can be ascribed only to omniscience." > ***** > If you'd like me to quote any other details from the Guide or to check in > the Patthana itself, let me know. I have been try to look this up for the past couple of weeks. Last week, I went to one Buddhist Library that that U Narada's Guide, but the Patthana was missing. This week, I went to another Buddhist library and they had the Patthana but not U Narada's Guide. I spent a couple of hours going through the Patthana trying to find the references, without any luck. As you know, the structure of the Patthana makes things quite difficult to find. I have no doubt that many of the ideas behind the citta-processes are contained in germinal form in the Abhidhamma Pitaka (maybe even in the Suttana Pitaka), but my understanding is that the naming and the details did not come until the Abhidhammatthasangaha (12th century). Here is a quote from the Appendix of Nyanatiloka's Manual of Buddhist Terms (Appendix lists terms found only in commentaries, not in Tipitaka): citta-víthi, as well as all terms for the various functions within the processes of consciousness, such as ávajjana-citta, sampaticchana, santírana, votthapana, javana, tadárammana, bhavanga, cuti: none of these terms is found in the Sutta Canon. except javana, in Pts.M. Even in the Ahh. Canon (e.g. Patth) only javana and bhavanga are twice or thrice briefly mentioned. The stages, however, must have been more or less known. Cf. e.g Patth: ''Cakkhu- viññánam tam sampayuttaká ca dhammá (= cetasiká) mano-dhátuyá (performing the sampaticchana-function), tam sampayuttakánañ ca dhammánam (cetasikánani) anantara-paccayena paccayo. Mano-dhátu ... manoviññána-dhátuya (performing the santírana and votthapana function).... Purimá purimá kusalá dhammá (javaná) pacchimánam pacchimánam kusalánam dhammánam (javanacittánam) anantara-paccayena paccayo... avyákatánam dhammánam (tadárammana- and bhavanga- cittánam....)." Sarah, if Nyanatiloka is wrong, please give me the specific reference in the Patthana so I can look it up. Metta, Rob M :-) 19844 From: azita gill Date: Sun Feb 23, 2003 2:57am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Comfort --- "christine_forsyth " wrote: > Dear Robert, > > > Death doesn't worry me. You're here one instant and > not here the > next. But this stuff about the last thought > determining the next > rebirth does. Somehow most things in Buddhism (once > you get used to > them) seem to follow a certain logic, a predictable > lawfulness, even > have a certain justice. But the cuti-citta ... > there doesn't seem to > be logic, lawfulness or justice - just blind chance. > One wonders why > consequences could not be closer to the initiating > action. Or why > there isn't a Statute of Limitations... > > metta, > Christine > dear Chris, ...and isn't it a wonderful reminder that 'we' cannot control the cuti-citta anymore than we can control now, this very moment. But we can be aware of this present moment, because there is nothing else to be aware of anyway. Was listening to a tape today where K.Sujin said that we are always turning away from this present moment, and how true that is. Always wanting something that we haven't got, think we need, worry about what we should have done etc. etc. I remember in discussions with Ven.Dhammadharo, where he reminded us that to follow the Buddha-Dhamma meant going against the current of society, and I always pictured a raging, flooding river where everything was going one way and lonely little me was trying to swim against that huge force of water. Keep smiling, be patient, may wisdom grow, for we never know when cuti-citta will arise. Azita 19845 From: abhidhammika Date: Sun Feb 23, 2003 4:13am Subject: Re: Attention Suan: Thanks, Robert Dear Robert How are you? Sorry for your troubles with my e-mails! One of the students who handles credit card payments to the web hosting service provider is now back in Canberra. He works for the CSIRO, and went interstate for during the week on business trip. Tonight, I rang him, and he is back home. He will be renewing the website hosting, so I hope the web site and e-mail services would resume tomorrow or soon. For the time being, please kindly use my old Yahoo e-mail: abhidhammika@Y... I have been waiting for your e-mail every day. Thank you for your kind attempts to send me this important document. With kind regards, Suan --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult " wrote: Hi Suan, Tried twice, but got the same failure notice with this new email address that I got with the previous email address. Please send me a third email address or advise when the first two are functional again. Metta, Rob M :-) 19846 From: Date: Sun Feb 23, 2003 3:40am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Abandoning Hi, Jon (and Herman) - In a message dated 2/23/03 2:25:55 AM Eastern Standard Time, jonoabb@y... writes: > > Herman > > Thanks for the sutta quote [see below]. You ask: > "Are you at odds in any way with the contents of this sutta?" > > Not at all. But note that the words of the sutta do not go on to > explain what is meant here by 'abandon' and 'develop' or, to put it > another way, how the 'abandoning' or 'development' in question is to > be accomplished. > > In my view it would be a mistake to assume that these terms are > intended to carry their normal everyday meaning. We need to bring to > bear what is said elsewhere in the Tipitaka, particularly in the > commentary to this sutta (not available in English, unfortunately) to > get a correct picture. This is a good example of what is referred to > in the texts as a 'teaching in brief'. > > As to the sort of thing that might be intended here, Nyanatiloka's > 'Buddhist Dictionary' states that, according to the Patisambhida > Magga , 'abandoning' or 'overcoming' (pahaana) is of 5 kinds: > > "pahána: 'overcoming', abandoning. There are 5 kinds of overcoming: > (1) overcoming by repression (vikkhambhana-pahána), i.e. the > temporary suspension of the 5 hindrances (nívarana) during the > absorptions, > (2) overcoming by the opposite (tadanga-pahána), > (3) overcoming by destruction (samuccheda-pahána), > (4) overcoming by tranquillization (patipassaddhi-pahána), > (5) overcoming by escape (nissarana-pahána)." > > I have pasted below the detailed description of each kind of > abandoning given in the entry. As can be seen from this material, > permanent abandoning (i.e., other than the meaning at (1)) and > insight ('development'?) are really 2 sides of the same coin. > > Jon > > ================================ Jon, Herman had written the following: ******************************************* --- "Egberdina " wrote: > Hi Jon and Howard, ... > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an02-019.html > > "Abandon what is unskillful, monks. It is possible to abandon what > is > unskillful. If it were not possible to abandon what is unskillful, > I > would not say to you, 'Abandon what is unskillful.' But because it > is > possible to abandon what is unskillful, I say to you, 'Abandon what > is unskillful.' If this abandoning of what is unskillful were > conducive to harm and pain, I would not say to you, 'Abandon what > is > unskillful.' But because this abandoning of what is unskillful is > conducive to benefit and pleasure, I say to you, 'Abandon what is > unskillful.' > "Develop what is skillful, monks. It is possible to develop what is > skillful. If it were not possible to develop what is skillful, I > would not say to you, 'Develop what is skillful.' But because it is > possible to develop what is skillful, I say to you, 'Develop what > is > skillful.' If this development of what is skillful were conducive > to > harm and pain, I would not say to you, 'Develop what is skillful.' > But because this development of what is skillful is conducive to > benefit and pleasure, I say to you, 'Develop what is skillful.'" ... > > Are you at odds in any way with the contents of this sutta? **************************************************** This sutta certainly seems to be as straightforward and clear as can be. I find it hard to imagine that the Buddha would teach such an apparently clear lesson with it being actually a cryptic lesson requiring detailed explanation and additions. But, be that as it may, it seems to me, and I may be quite wrong on this and await correction from Herman, Herman's asking whether you are at odds with the contents in any way relates to the following: When one is instructed to abandon what is unskillful, and told that it is possible to do so, this implies straight out that it is within one's power to take steps to accomplish that task. It seems to me that Herman might have been pointing out this sutta as an example of the Buddha indicating that it is possible to proactively exert effort and volition to accomplish things, and that, in fact, the Buddha is exhorting his listeners to do exactly that. Again, Herman, I await correction. In any case, however, that is certainly how I understand this sutta. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 19847 From: Date: Sun Feb 23, 2003 8:44am Subject: RE: [dsg] No-self, no-control, from Visuddhimagga Hi Kom, Thanks for all your answers. It's going to take awhile to understand them. Larry 19848 From: Date: Sun Feb 23, 2003 3:57am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Abandoning In a message dated 2/23/2003 8:41:44 AM Pacific Standard Time, upasaka@a... writes: > It seems to me that Herman > might have been pointing out this sutta as an example of the Buddha > indicating that it is possible to proactively exert effort and volition to > accomplish things, and that, in fact, the Buddha is exhorting his listeners > to do exactly that. Again, Herman, I await correction. In any case, > however, > that is certainly how I understand this sutta. > > With metta, > Howard > > Hi Howard. I think the above is absolutely true but I would use the word "reactively" instead of "proactively." This shows that conditions are driving volition and not a self. In this case the principle condition being the Buddha's teaching. TG 19849 From: Date: Sun Feb 23, 2003 4:06am Subject: Re: [dsg] AN IV, 41/Right concentration (was, More on Forest and Lone Dwelling) Hi, Jon - As I've mentioned before, I don't remember sutta references well. I do recall much of the content, but not what was read where. (Obviously, it's not important enough to me.) In any case, I'm not eager to do the sort of search required to for me to provide the references you request below. But, Jon, you are very well read in the Dhamma, and what I referred to aren't obscure writings, so I have considerable confidence that you have seen them at one point or another. At one point below you write: "However, nowhere does the sutta say that 'ordinary-state abilities remain' during the jhanas." But this statement follows just shortly after I point out how it says in the Anupada Sutta that a laundry list of standard mental operations exist throughout the jhanas except the 8th. Specifically, I give the following: <> To me, this shows ongoing contact and awareness, ongoing mindfulness, and wisdom which knows aniccata, and which knows the inadequacy of even such a refined state as the "sphere of nothingness." With metta, Howard In a message dated 2/23/03 2:32:45 AM Eastern Standard Time, jonoabb@y... writes: > > Howard > > --- upasaka@a... wrote: > ... > >SB: > >Right Concentration should be understood as: > > > >"And what is the development of concentration that, when developed > & > >pursued, leads to the ending of the effluents? > >There is the case where a monk remains focused on arising &falling > >away with reference to the five clinging-aggregates: 'Such is form, > >such its origination, such its passing away. Such is feeling, such > >its origination, such its passing away. Such is perception, such > its > >origination, such its passing away. Such are fabrications, such > their > >origination, such their passing away. Such is consciousness, such > its > >origination, such its disappearance.' > >This is the development of concentration that, when developed & > >pursued, leads to the ending of the effluents. > >http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an04-041.html > > > >Jon: > >An interesting passage. My paraphrase of it would be as follows: > >At any moment of insight into the impermanence (arising and falling > >away) of any of the fundamental phenomena (5 khandhas), right > >concentration is also being developed. > > > >I'd be interested to know if this is your reading also. > > > >Jon > > > ============================ > Howard: > This certainly presents "right concentration" as concentrating > on the flow of dhammas together with the observing of exactly *what* > is arising at any time, and seeing the arising and the falling away. > There is no doubt about it. > > Jon: > Could you expand a little on the idea of concentrating on the flow of > dhammas. Is it something mentioned in the texts? > > Just for comparison, the Bhikkhu Bodhi translation reads as follows: > "And what is the development of concentration that leads to the > destruction of the taints? Here, a monk dwells contemplating rise > and fall in the five aggregates subject to clinging: 'Such is form, > such its arising, such its passing away. ..." > > The expression 'dwells contemplating' somehow carries a different > emphasis than 'remains focussed on'. As I see it, however, it is the > aspect of rising and falling away that is the object of this > contemplation/focus, rather than the flow of successive [different] > dhammas (i.e., it could be in relation to numerous moments of, say, > just visible object or seeing consciousness). > > Howard: > There are other places where, with just as little doubt, the > Buddha explicitly defines right concentration as the 1st four jhanas. > In fact, he explicitly talks about the 4th jhana, the jhana > characterized by equanimity, to be the state of perfect malleability > and flexibility of mind for dhammic investigation, and this last may > be what can lead us out of an apparent contradiction. > > Jon: > I hope you won't think I'm avoiding the issue here, Howard, but I > find it of doubtful value to discuss what is said in particular > suttas without having the actual text of the sutta, since so much > depends on context. > > Howard: > Of course, one answer is that the Buddha considers the term > 'right concentration' to be somewhat flexible. But another is that he > considers both definitions to be correct and non-contradictory. There > are suttas in which the ability to peruse the flow of dhammas remains > unabated in the jhanas. (I quoted one once, but I forget which sutta > it was. > > Jon: > I'd be interested to know what these suttas are, if you come across > the references anytime. > > Howard: > But one sutta suggestive of what I am saying is the Anupada Sutta ... > In that sutta, many ordinary-state abilities are said to > remain even up through the jhana of no-thingness. With regard to > that the sutta states the following: > < nothingness, one pointedness of mind, contact, feelings, perceptions, > intentions, interest, resolution, effort, equanimity and attention, > follow one after the other to him. They rise, persist and fade with > his knowledge. He knows, these things come to be and cause feelings > to rise. When these things follow one after the other, he abides with > a mind that does not settle, is not bound, is released, unyoked and > unrestricted. knows there is an escape beyond this. With much > practise they come to him.>> > > Jon: > This sutta [M. 111, 'One by One As They Occurred'] is a sutta > describing the 'great wisdom' of Sariputta and how he was able to > have insight into states 'one by one as they occurred'. > > According to the commentary cited in the note to the Bhikkhu Bodhi > translation (MLDB), this was 'insight into states in successive order > by way of the meditative attainments and the jhana factors'. > > However, nowhere does the sutta say that 'ordinary-state abilities > remain' during the jhanas. I am not aware of any support in the > texts for the idea that insight arises while in jhana (as opposed to > immediately following a momnet of jhana). > > Howard: > One other post I wrote once along the current lines said the > following: < attention and analysis to the flow of thoughts, feelings, and dhammas > in general during jhana is a part of what the Buddha said in certain > suttas in describing the progress of moving from the 1st through the > 4th jhana. He advocates suffusing the entire body with rapture during > the 1st jhana; he gives similar instruction for the 2nd and 3rd > jhanas, and finally talks about the mind being lustrous and pure - > equanimous - during the 4th jhana, and advocates suffusing that > lustrous mind throughout the entire body during that jhana. > Especially this latter instruction seems to suggest that one can use > volition to direct the mind during the 4th jhana, that one can be > aware of the body during that jhana, and, presumably, one can then > proceed to a detailed analysis of namarupa from that base of stable > equanimity.>> > Also, there are suttas in which the Buddha, himself, or, more > correctly, the Bodhisatta, while "in" the 4th jhana, turned his > attention to beings passing out of the world and into the world, > turned his attention to past lives of his, and finally turned his > attention to the uprooting of defilements. > > Jon: > Interesting, and looking forward to the sutta references in question. > > Jon > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 19850 From: bodhi342 Date: Sun Feb 23, 2003 9:13am Subject: Re: (2)Anattta and Kamma and Conventional Events: A Brief Comment Dear Robert K., Howard et al, Thank you for your thoughtful responses. Since both of you raise the question as to why I asked for more logical explanation than sutta reference, let me try to explain. As far as I can tell many suttas are very like specific prescriptions for particular situations, for particular recipients of the Buddha's knowledge. Therefore, I am possibly more cautious than many others, in making inferences that apply to contemporary understanding. 2500 yrs ago, belief in devas, hell etc. may have been commonplace, and therefore appropriate as illustration. They may even exist, but that is beyond this poor human's verification! Therefore, we can view them as metaphors (as Howard suggests), real (as I think many on dsg would accept), or just time and situation specific - where we should be careful about overinfering meaning. I have no doubt that kamma is complex, both as reality and as concept ;-). We can verify much of momentary conditions, even aspects of dependant arising, but how can we verify kamma? I would place kamma in the 'faith' pigeonhole of my understanding, as I cannot remember my last life, let alone for aeons; nor do I know of any objective measure to prove or disprove the construct. Therefore, when we use a metaphor to help with understanding an issue of faith, it is subjective. This is based on inference. This contrasts with the important tenet of the Buddha to verify whatever is understood and practiced. Hence, my plea for logical argument. That logic, premises etc. may be tainted (or flooded) with the three poisons remains a possibility, Howard. Is inference safe from these? I would suggest that the Buddha's wise injunction for verification is a safeguard against reaching the wrong conclusion. Further, logic would seem relatively safer than inference from myth, don't you agree? Let me get back to the 'prescriptions' analogy. Patients are given prescriptions - the wiser the physician, the more effective the prescription. The wiser the patient, the more likely they will follow the prescription correctly. The necessary intermediate is the explanation as to why, how, when etc. this particular prescription will work. That is where clear understanding, logic etc. are invaluable. Telling the patient to just swallow the pill is much less effective. At least this applies to those patients who rely more on understanding than faith in either the pill or the doctor! Robert, thank you for a very useful second message, which logically explained your answers to my questions. RK: >Dharam you asked: ""Why should we be concerned with concepts such as 'punishment' for the old farmer for past misdeeds?"" Often in the suttas the Buddha teaches the Dhamma in conventional terms (vohara vacana) and so refers to human beings and animals etc. Certainly, as you realise, these have no reality and are merely concepts used for convenience. In the case of such terms as punishment (unpleasant result) we know that in the true sense there is no one who receives results but that results arise by conditions: From the Visuddhimagga 172"Experiencer is a convention for mere arising of fruit (vipaka);" And Vis. XIX20 "There is no doer of a deed Or one who reaps the deeds result: Phenomena alone flow on- No other view than this is right." This is basic Dhamma and I am glad you bought it up as otherwise we might turn away from the stories in the Dhammapada of Jataka > commentaries not realising their profundity. D: Again, he tailored the prescription to the requirements of the listener. I just think that we should then, be consistent is explicitly saying that sentient beings are concepts. Therefore, why be concerned whether 'bad' kamma has come back to cause a certain vipaka for a certain individual (or group as in the case of 9-11 victims). Isn't this speculation fruitless, at least at this stage? RK: >Indeed you write: "How is the seeming attention paid to mythical issues consistent with the expectation that we should test any teaching against reality? [The stories of the farmer, Maha Mogallana etc. and references to devas etc.]" In part I think this is answered above but to clarify further. We may think of devas and such as mythical but the greatest myth is the idea that `we' exist now. Thus when I read the Dhammapada or the Jataka I look at it in this way, which is also the way that life is here and now. The Abhidhamma- which should inform our understanding whenever we consider- shows us that what we thought were trees and people and animals and devas even ourself are only conditioned, evanescent aggregates (khandas). I think knowing this we read the story in a different way: That it is that the story is an illustration of the workings of conditionality, especially that condition called kamma. D: You may be correct here. I have to say however, that these illustrations are more of a distraction, forcing our minds to consider concepts that do not necessarily lead to better understanding ( at least at my superficial level ). This is exemplified in other concurrent threads that display anguish possibly arising from the 'realness' of these types of concepts. Why not be consistent, and concentrate on just the present? RK: > You further ask: "How is concern about kamma consistent with concentrating on what is just occuring in the moment?" Well when there is concentrating on the present this can be with right view or wrong view. Someone may know breath or subtle sensations in the body or heat or seeing but with no insight. So one who has some background in Dhamma knows – at least theoretically - that "The mental and material are really here, but here there is no human being to be found,for it is void and merely fashioned like a doll just suffering piled up like grass and sticks"(visuddimagga xvii31). And further than this one must know that nama(mentality) and rupa (matter) are conditioned to arise by conditions such as kamma. Now we cannot know what kamma done in what life produced this momnt of seeing consciousness. It could have been kamma done 100,000 millions of aeons ago that was the dominant condition. But I believe developed insight can see how conditions work. "The succession of kamma and its result is only [fully]clear in its true nature to the Buddha's . But the succession of kamma and its result can be known in > part by one practising insight" Vis. Xix17 D: Agreed. The last two sentences say it all ;-). RK: > Back to the present moment: Didn't we, before we heard Dhamma, think that `our' body and mind, which we all know are here now, were something good? But in fact they are killers: "therefore the wise should see the aggregates (the five khandas, nama and rupa) as murderers." Visuddhimagga XiV230 When we talk about such matter(ruap) as the eyebase, earbase etc which are produced by kamma (done in past lives) it is again the same as discussing anatta. "All formed bases should be regarded as having no provenance and no destination. For the do not come from anywhere prior to their arrival nor do they go anywhere after their fall. On the contrary, before their rise they had no individual essence and after their fall their individual essence is completely dissolved. And they occur without mastery been exercisable over them since they exist dependent on conditions and in between the past and future". No control and powerlessness is the sign of anatta. And again this relates to right insight into the present moment. Someone with wrong understanding will try to control or change the present moment rather than insighting it as it is now, rather than understanding the > conditionality of each moment. D: Exactly. That is why it is somewhat confusing to see the concern about the effects of kamma, they will presumably roll on uncontrolled. Concentrating on the moment, should remove consideration of the causes of, or results of kamma, or have I misunderstood this? RK: >Back to the story about the farmer: "At the end of the discourse all the bhikkhus attained Sotapatti Fruition." We might wonder how such an apparently simple story could lead directly to enlightenment. It is because this discourse teaches conditionality and anatta – and for those with accumulations must lead to insight into the conditioned nature of this moment. D: This is as good an inference as any. It also illustrates the specific nature of the prescription, as discussed above. My concern is of misunderstanding a sutta reference without the type of excellent logical interpretation that you have given above. It is a reminder to caution, especially for mythological references. [I do not put other suttas, such as the formiddable Upanissa sutta in the same category.] Thank you Robert K. and everyone else for a stimulating, and very useful discussion. metta, dharam 19851 From: Date: Sun Feb 23, 2003 4:36am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Abandoning Hi, TG - In a message dated 2/23/03 11:59:26 AM Eastern Standard Time, TGrand458@a... writes: > In a message dated 2/23/2003 8:41:44 AM Pacific Standard Time, > upasaka@a... writes: > > > >It seems to me that Herman > >might have been pointing out this sutta as an example of the Buddha > >indicating that it is possible to proactively exert effort and volition to > > >accomplish things, and that, in fact, the Buddha is exhorting his > listeners > >to do exactly that. Again, Herman, I await correction. In any case, > >however, > >that is certainly how I understand this sutta. > > > >With metta, > >Howard > > > > > > Hi Howard. > > I think the above is absolutely true but I would use the word "reactively" > instead of "proactively." This shows that conditions are driving volition > and not a self. In this case the principle condition being the Buddha's > teaching. > > TG > > ============================ I understand and agree with your point. I wrote "proactively" to emphasize the volition involved, the rright effort involved, and the energy involved. I certainly agree that nothing arises unconditionally. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 19852 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Sun Feb 23, 2003 10:15am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: 19177 (another Jataka) Dear Kimmy, > -----Original Message----- > From: Star Kid [mailto:starkidsclub@y...] > > that we can learn from the Jataka story. You influence > me to be more interested in Buddhism stories. Yes, we can learn many things from the stories that the Buddha told. Buddha is a wise friend for he urges people to do good, avoid doing bad, and to purify one's mind. > Lastly, I would like to ask if Buddhism believes in > ghosts? > The Buddha taught that there are rebirths, and that people are reborn into many planes of existence. Some are reborn as animals, some as hungry ghosts, some in hell, some as humans, and some in heavenly realms. Some of the beings share the same physical world, like we share our worlds with animals. It is also said that we share our worlds with some hungry ghosts, and with some lower heavenly being as well. So, ghosts in Buddhism are just like people and animal: they are born into a world of existence, although most of their living conditions are unpleasant. Do we need to be afraid of ghosts? Well, I think it is more likely that we will be harmed by other people or animals than we would be harmed by ghosts. kom From: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/leaves/bl138.html Kalakanni Jataka (Jataka No. 83) What's in a Name? The Buddha told this story while at Jetavana, about one of Anathapindika's friends, a man named "Curse." The two had played together as children and had gone to the same school. As the years passed, however, the friend became extremely poor and could not make a living for himself no matter what he did. In desperation, he approached Anathapindika, who welcomed him kindly and employed him to look after his property and to manage all of his business for him. From that time on, it was a common thing to hear someone shouting, "Curse!" each time a member of the household spoke to him. One day some of Anathapindika's friends and acquaintances came and said, "Treasurer, don't let this sort of thing go on in your house! It's enough to scare an ogre to hear such inauspicious speech as 'Come here, Curse,' 'Sit down, Curse,' or 'Have your dinner, Curse.' The man is a miserable wretch, dogged by misfortune. He's not your social equal. Why do you have anything to do with him?" "Nonsense," replied Anathapindika, firmly rejecting their advice. "A name only denotes a man. The wise do not measure a man by his name. It is useless to be superstitious about mere sounds. I will never abandon the friend with whom I made mud-pies as a child, simply because of his name." Not long after that, Anathapindika went with many of his servants to visit a village of which he was headman. He left his old friend in charge. Hearing of his departure, a band of robbers decided to break into the house. That night, they armed themselves to the teeth and surrounded it. Curse had suspected that burglars might try something so he stayed awake. As soon as he knew that the robbers were outside, he ran about noisily as though he were rousing the entire household. He shouted for one person to sound the conch and for another to beat the drum. Soon it seemed that the house contained a whole army of servants. When the robbers heard the din, they said to one another, "The house is not as empty as we thought it would be. The master must still be at home after all." They threw down their clubs and other weapons and fled. In the morning, the discarded weapons were found lying scattered outside the house. When the townspeople realized what had happened, they lauded Curse to the skies. "If such a wise man hadn't been guarding the house," they said, "those robbers would have walked in and plundered as they pleased. Anathapindika owes this good luck to his staunch friend, Curse." As soon as Anathapindika returned from his trip, they told him the whole story. "My friends," Anathapindika answered, "this is the trusty guardian I was urged to get rid of. If I had taken your advice and sent him away, I would be a poorer man today. It's not the name but the heart within that makes the man!" In appreciation of his friend's services, he even raised his wages. Thinking that this was a good story to tell the Buddha, Anathapindika went to the Master and gave him a complete account. "This is not the first time, sir," the Buddha said, "that a man named Curse has saved his friend's wealth from robbers. The same thing happened in bygone days as well." Then, at Anathapindika's request, the Buddha told this story of the past. Long, long ago, when Brahmadatta was reigning in Baranasi, the Bodhisatta was the treasurer. He was very famous and had a friend named Curse. At that time everything was the same as in the story of Anathapindika. When the treasurer returned from the village and heard the news, he said to his friends, "If I had taken your advice and had gotten rid of my trusty friend, I would have been a beggar today. A friend is one who goes seven steps to help. He who goes twelve can be called a comrade. Loyalty for a fortnight or a month makes one a relative; long and steady dependability, a second self. How could I forsake my friend Curse who has always been so true?" His lesson ended, the Buddha identified the Birth by saying, "At that time Ananda was Curse, and I myself was the treasurer of Baranasi." 19853 From: rjkjp1 Date: Sun Feb 23, 2003 11:18am Subject: Re: [dsg] (2)Anattta and Kamma and Conventional Events: A Brief Comment --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "m. nease" wrote: > Excellent, Robert--just what I was looking for. Thanks-- > > mike > > p.s. I'm not familiar with Sammohavinodani--part of the Abhidhammapitaka? > __________ DEAR Mike, It is the commentary to the Vibhanga of the Abhidhamma and is translated in 2 volumes as Dispeller of Delusion- a very apt name. Worth buying from Pali Text Society. Robert 19854 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Feb 23, 2003 11:36am Subject: FW: nibbindati, virajeti, some Pali Dear friends, for those who do not mind Pali. This is about the stages of insight. ---------- Van: nina van gorkom Datum: Sun, 23 Feb 2003 11:34:15 +0100 Aan: Pali yahoo Onderwerp: nibbindati, virajeti Dear Yong Peng and friends, Yong Peng wrote: Nina: the sentence was: aapo-dhaatuyaa nibbindati, aapo-dhaatuyaa citta.m viraajeti. nibbida, being averse, turning away or disenchantment. Rahula was on his way to arahatship, but he had to begin at the beginning: he had to see nama and rupa as elements. Seeing realities as they are leads to detachment, more disenchantment with all conditioned dhammas. In the course of insight panna sees more the disadvantage of sankhaara dhammas (the conditioned dhammas of our life), turns away from them, and it is inclined to, turns towards the asankhata dhamma, the uncodiitoned element, nibbaana. Now we come to the word viraaga. We read in the MN 64, Mahaamaalu'nkyasutta, at the end: Viraaga is, as I see it, a further developed insight, which will culminate in the magga-citta. The three terms viraago, nirodho and nibbaana are often together. We read at the end of the Mahaaraahulovaadasutta: "'Aniccaanupassii assasissaamii'ti sikkhati; 'aniccaanupassii passasissaamii'ti sikkhati; I shall breathe in ...out, contemplating impermanence 'viraagaanupassii assasissaamii'ti sikkhati; 'viraagaanupassii passasissaamii'ti sikkhati; I shall breathe in ...out, contemplating dispassion 'nirodhaanupassii assasissaamii'ti sikkhati; 'nirodhaanupassii passasissaamii'ti sikkhati; I shall breathe in ...out, contemplating stopping 'pa.tinissaggaanupassii assasissaamii'ti sikkhati; 'pa.tinissaggaanupassii passasissaamii'ti sikkhati. I shall breathe in ...out, contemplating casting away. Here we have again together: viraaga, nirodhaa and in addition we have pa.tinissagga, casting away or abandoning. The words nibbidaa and viraaga could indicate a progressing development of vipassana, a growing detachment conditioned by pa~n~naa. Rahula had to develop vipassanaa as was said in the Commentary. Nibbindati comes first in the text, and then virajeti. When we translate, it cannot be helped that the text does not have the same impact as the Pali, we miss the association of terms like viraaga, nirodhaa, nibbaana, as indicated above. Virajeti could be translated as he becomes dispassionate. Actually, he inclines to nibbana. In the Pa.tisambhidaamagga, the Path of Discrimination (belonging to the Sutta pi.taka, Khuddaka Nikaaya) the different stages of insight are described. Actually, also the Visuddhimagga describes these different stages. In this Sutta and other Suttas we do not find all the different stages of insight by name as described in the Visuddhimagga and the Pa.tisambhidaamagga, but, they are implied. In the Visuddhimagga and the Pa.tisambhidaamagga there is an elaboration of the tersm indicating a growing insight, developing from perfect understanding of sankhaara dhammas, turning away from them, and inclining to the asankata dhamma, nibbaana. Nibbida, viraaga, only two words, but they imply a progressing insight. In the Suttas, but also in the Visuddhimagga and the Patisambhidaamagga not many details are given about the stages of insight. The reason is, that where it concerns direct understanding, no words are needed. Pa~n~naa understands dhammas directly and it works its way. We do not have to call the stages of insight by name, they indicate a developing insight up to magga-citta. I will elaborate somewhat on the stages, because we find in these the names nibbida, viraaga, patinissagga, which words are used in the Raaholovaadasutta. In the Visuddhimagga (XXII) 18 principal stages of insight are described : contemplation of anicca, dukkha, anatta, nibbida (turning away), viraaga (dispassion), nirodha (extinction) abandoning (patinissagga), and then the following stages up to magga-citta. (See also Buddhist Dictionary, Nyanatiloka). In the Visuddhimagga, under pa.tipadaa ~naa.nadassanavisuddhi, insight perfected in eight kinds of knowledge has been explained, and the fifth is: nibbidaanupassanaa, contemplation of turning away (translated as aversion, but it is not dosa, more: being averse, or disenchantment). The foregoing stages are: seeing the impermanence, seeing the dissolution, seeing the fearfulness, seeing the danger. As Rahula is concerned, he had extraordinary accumulations of pa~n~naa, and the whole process until arahatship could evolve within a short time. He had to realize his own akusala, his attachment to the body as only a conditioned element, not self. He had to understand all dhammas, no exception. When studying the Pali terms, I cannot help seeing more and more the connection between the Suttas and the Visuddhimagga, and also the commentaries. A side remark, the following example shows that in a few words, such as full comprehension, parijaanaana, all the stages of insight are implied: Samyutta Nikaaya IV, Sa.laayatanavagga, First Fifty, Ch 3, §25 (XXXV,25): parijaanaana. The Co. explains here the stages of insight by way of the three pari~n~nas. (See also translation by B.B.) Nina. 19855 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Feb 23, 2003 11:36am Subject: Re: [dsg] Comfort Dear Christine op 21-02-2003 19:47 schreef christine_forsyth op cforsyth@v...:> > I once asked a question about courage in the scriptures ... perhaps > what I was also looking for was 'comfort in the scriptures'. If we > are, for example, having a miserable experience in our work lives, > who can we turn to? DSG has usually somewhere over 270 members, but > most are unknown and don't communicate. Nina: It does not matter to be in a group of unknown people. I think of Purnomo who lost his grandma and was so sad. He received many comforting reactions, also from members who do not post often. Conditions bring us all together, and we can get help from those who are unknown to us, from whom we did not expect it. I do not mind from whom I get Dhamma, it can also be from the starkids. Dhamma is dhamma. I do not mind a crowd of silent people, I love them all, and they do not have to react to my mails. > Ch: I have occasionally had the experience of things not going right in > life, and of wanting to obtain guidance and talk things over from a > buddhist perspective. This doesn't happen because confidentiality > and trust are two major parts of friendship, and my only option would > be to become a public diversion by posting to a list with hundreds > of unknown members. > It seems it is 'bad form' and inconsiderate for a Buddhist to mention > their own worries. N: No, that is not so. I think of Kisagotama and the mustard seed. Was there one family where there was no loss through death? We can also say, is there one person who does not have to face problems, even heartrending situations? Don't we all have similar problems? I think now of Howard's example, he had to go through a lot, his sickness, and we did not know. Often when we see people reacting and we hear later on about their background or their circumstances, we say, I wish I had known. Ch: 'Sometime', 'somewhere' you performed the kamma > and current suffering is your 'just deserts'. Never > completely figured out how this works with anatta. Never completely > figured out how worldly suffering is > 'all just a story, just thinking'. It's feels unbearably real. I > can't see any 'protection' in buddhism either. Looking back, I'm > sure that prayer used to often work, whatever the mechanism. N: We can pray, but in a different way that is more helpful than we did before. We can fold our hands, bow our head and pay respect to the Buddha, and recollect with gratefulness his teaching of Dhamma, even though we cannot understand everything yet. This can bring us back to the present moment, learning more about it, how it is conditioned. Is there attachment? Do we want something for ourselves, like protection? It is better to know than not to know. Even sadness, o yes, it is only that, it is conditioned, but it does not stay. When in Kraeng Kacan, Lodewijk and I spoke to A. Sujin about the problems with my father. She answered: We are not always ready to hear this, I perfectly understand. People will quote suttas and you may not take them in. At another moment you will see: what the Buddha says is his personal message to me. A. Sujin also reminds us not to hold on to what happened yesterday, it is gone. We have so many thoughts, they have fallen away. We are now in the midst of problems. My father cannot bear to die, but he is slowly dying. It makes him cross with the whole world including us. He does not want to see us, nor speak on the phone with us. Last week we could do some musical healing, but we do not know whether we have access to him today, to soften his heart with our gift of music. We shall try. This makes us very sad. So you see, you are not the only one. I can go back to childhood, my father's attitude to me, a complicated relationship. My vipaka, produced by past kamma. My father's childhood, his education, his accumulated inclinations stemming from past lives. We can go on and on, but impossible to trace the past, just stories. If we try to find out it will drive us crazy. Ch: Apart from that, mostly I feel Buddhism currently seems to offer stoicism -'no control' and 'endurance'. N: We know that patience and endurance is the highhest ascetism. But it can be learnt little by little, beginning with small, seemingly unimportant happenings. No control: but it helps to know that whatever happens is only, only a conditioned dhamma. Attaching less importance to your own moods, doubts, sadness. May we all see the great comfort in the Dhamma, Nina. P.S. And yes, he wanted his music, we had access. He does not eat. But in a few days we can come again with our music. Hard work for us to rehearse, but I like it. 19856 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Feb 23, 2003 11:36am Subject: The sources, patisambidhamagga Dear Sarah, thank you for your post about the old tradition and the sources. Very useful. I would like people to have more confidence in the Path of Discrimination, Patisambidhamagga, composed by Sariputta, the general of the Dhamma. Nina 19857 From: buddhatrue Date: Sun Feb 23, 2003 11:44am Subject: Re: ~Rebirth & WW2~ --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Star Kid wrote: > Hi James, > > I've heard you've gone on a vacation from here, > where'd you go? > > Well, Im not sure if I ate healthy or not..I went to > China and ate lots of stuff, yummy stuff! =) > > Yes, I agree..if they world gets into another > war..alot of innocent people will dieand the world > will become a disaster which Im sure nobody wants that > to happen. > > I've heard about the concentration camps and > seenpictures of them because just a few months ago, > I was doing a project for a drama class that was > performing a show about Hitler, concentration camps, > the Nazis, etc. Its called "The Wave"..Have you heard > of that movie before? > Its all about a class learning about Hitler and > concentration camps. It was sure a good movie! > > The poem was very beautiful..I loved it! I feel really > sorry for all the adults and children that was sent to > the concentrations camps. Thats a very interesting way > of being reborn. What will happen to the Nazis when > they are reborn? > > Well, I hope you had fun in wherever you went for your > holiday! > Can you tell me something you did? How was it? > Can you tell me more about the concentration camps and > WW2?? > Does Buddhists go to church like Christians and > Catholic ? > > Talk to you later-Take care-Love, > JoJo* Hi Star Kid JoJo: I am not sure where you heard that I went on a vacation. I haven't gone on a vacation to anywhere in a while. I do like to go on vacations and I like to go to different countries the most. Some people don't understand why I like to do that, when there is so much to see in the U.S., and I think it is because they don't understand why I travel. I don't go to different places to `see' them; I go to different places to `feel' them. The U.S. has a very strong feeling that uniformly sweeps from shore-to-shore, in my experience, and it drowns out differences in location. Each state pretty much feels like every other state. Arizona used to feel very different, because there weren't many people here in the desert, but now a lot of people are moving here so I may have to move again to an area with less people around. A lot of people, all thinking and feeling the same way, tend to influence everyone else to feel and think that way. That brings me to your observation of `The Wave'. Yes, I did see that movie and I loved it. It demonstrated that the combination of many people feeling a certain way will grow and spread to everyone in that group. If a lot of people start feeling hate, then pretty soon practically everyone will start feeling hate. That is pretty much what happened in Nazi Germany. The Nazis weren't bad or evil people… they were regular people just like the rest of us. We all have the potential be like Nazis if we don't realize the influences, both overt and spiritual, that other people have on us. I don't like that influence so I don't like to be around a lot of people too much. Actually, it is often very difficult for me to participate in Internet groups because of the `feelings' I can sense from the numerous members. I also put out stronger feelings than most people… even through my writing. I bet you can almost `feel' me just from reading my writing can't you? But you don't feel the same things when you read others' writing. This is a curse and a blessing of mine. I believe that the Nazi Germans were reborn to be victims of someone or something else. They needed to learn the pain that they caused others so that they wouldn't do it again. This is not the revenge or retribution of karma, but the patient, firm love of karma. We must try to feel compassion, love, and forgiveness for the Nazis as well as their victims. That is all I want to say about WWII right now. I hope that is okay. Well, take care JoJo and when I do go on a vacation somewhere, I will post something about it. Love, James 19858 From: rjkjp1 Date: Sun Feb 23, 2003 2:46pm Subject: (3) Anattta and Kamma and Conventional Events: --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "bodhi342 " wrote: > > As far as I can tell many suttas are very like specific prescriptions > for particular situations, for particular recipients of the Buddha's > knowledge. ____________ Dear Dhamram, Yes, the suttas in the sutta pitaka is directed specifically to individuals and groups and so the Buddha tailored the words to suit. ------------ Therefore, I am possibly more cautious than many > others, in making inferences that apply to contemporary > understanding. 2500 yrs ago, belief in devas, hell etc. may > have been commonplace, and therefore appropriate as illustration. > They may even exist, but that is beyond this poor human's > verification! Therefore, we can view them as metaphors (as Howard > suggests), real (as I think many on dsg would accept), or just time > and situation specific - where we should be careful about > overinfering meaning. > > I have no doubt that kamma is complex, both as reality and as > concept ;-). We can verify much of momentary conditions, even > aspects of dependant arising, but how can we verify kamma? I > would place kamma in the 'faith' pigeonhole of my understanding, as I > cannot remember my last life, let alone for aeons; nor do I know of > any objective measure to prove or disprove the construct. _______________ No objective measure used by science could prove kamma as kamma can only be undertood by insight knowledge not measures or instruments. ------------- > > Therefore, when we use a metaphor to help with understanding an issue > of faith, it is subjective. This is based on inference. This > contrasts with the important tenet of the Buddha to verify whatever > is understood and practiced. Hence, my plea for logical > argument. That logic, premises etc. may be tainted (or flooded) > with the three poisons remains a possibility, Howard. Is inference > safe from these? I would suggest that the Buddha's wise injunction > for verification is a safeguard against reaching the wrong > conclusion. Further, logic would seem relatively safer than > inference from myth, don't you agree? _____________ The Buddha often came across skeptics who doubted or wondered whether there were past or future lives and if there was such a thing as kamma. He said: "A wise man reflects, if there is no other world, these good persons will be well and good after death. However, if there is another world, after death they would go to decrease, to hell. If there is the other world, these good persons will have unlucky throws on both sides. The wise will blame them here and now, they will decrease in virtues and be born in hell after death. Thus if this pervading teaching [about kamma and its results] is observed, it pervades both sides and neglects the side of demerit. "" http://www.abhidhamma.org/majjhima%2060.htm Thus for those who are still in the very dangerous position of doubting kamma and its results the Buddha encouraged them to take a positive view that because it may be true they should think and behave as it if is true. However for those who already accepted the Buddha as their teacher he strongly encouraged them to accept his words as the truth: http://www.abhidhamma.org/anguttara_nikaya_iii.htm `Monks, I proclaim Dhamma with full comprehension, not without full comprehension. I proclaim Dhamma with causal connexions, not without. I proclaim Dhamma accompanied by wonders, not without wonders. Since I do so there is good reason why I should admonish, there is good reason why I should instruct. Well may ye be glad. Well may ye be satisfied. Well may ye be pleased at the thought: Perfectly enlightened is the Exalted One. Well taught by the Exalted One is Dhamma. Well conducted is the Order.' So spake the Exalted One." ________ > > > Robert, thank you for a very useful second message, which logically > explained your answers to my questions. > > RK: >Dharam you asked: ""Why should we be concerned with concepts > such as 'punishment' for the old farmer for past misdeeds?"" > Often in the suttas the Buddha teaches the Dhamma in conventional > terms (vohara vacana) and so refers to human beings and animals etc. > Certainly, as you realise, these have no reality and are merely > concepts used for convenience. In the case of such terms as > punishment (unpleasant result) we know that in the true sense there > is no one who receives results but that results arise by > conditions: From the Visuddhimagga 172"Experiencer is a convention > for mere arising of fruit (vipaka);" > And Vis. XIX20 "There is no doer of a deed Or one who reaps the deeds > result: Phenomena alone flow on- No other view than this is right." > This is basic Dhamma and I am glad you bought it up as otherwise we > might turn away from the stories in the Dhammapada of Jataka > > commentaries not realising their profundity. > > D: Again, he tailored the prescription to the requirements of the > listener. I just think that we should then, be consistent is > explicitly saying that sentient beings are concepts. Therefore, > why be concerned whether 'bad' kamma has come back to cause a certain > vipaka for a certain individual (or group as in the case of 9-11 > victims). Isn't this speculation fruitless, at least at this stage? ______________ Personally I seldom think about the vipaka of others. However, if we do find ourselves wondering about such matters then if we have faith in kamma and vipaka we will believe any instance of unpleasant or pleasant result as simply the lawful workings of the Dhamma. If we don't have faith in kamma we will speculate that it is by accident, or if if we believe in God think it 'an act of God'. So whenever we think about such matters we will speculate, either wisely or unwisely: the Buddha encouraged the speculation in wise ways as we see in the sutta above. A couple of years ago I was listening to Acharn Sujin talking to a group of Thai people who were asking about some deaths caused by floods in the south of Thailand. they were upset over it and feeling great pity for the people who had died. Sujin said people are up so compassionate to those who suffer but what about when they read about a criminal in the newspaper- do they have the same compassion to him? Because in the future his ill deeds will bring their painful result. Nina translated the commentary to a sutta the Buddha gave to Rahula. And it said that the Buddha had exactly the same love and compassion to Devadatta - who tried many times to kill him- as he did to his own son Rahula. We are on the road to developing that same wisdom when we - as you suggest- realize that beings are concepts and that only elements arise and cease. The understanding of anatta is the same as understanding conditions which include kamma. For us when we think about 9/11 do we feel equal pity for the people who planned and committed the atrocity? Such actions bring severe vipaka . ________ > > RK: >Indeed you write: > "How is the seeming attention paid to mythical issues consistent > with the expectation that we should test any teaching against > reality? [The stories of the farmer, Maha Mogallana etc. and > references to devas etc.]" > In part I think this is answered above but to clarify further. We may > think of devas and such as mythical but the greatest myth is the idea > that `we' exist now. Thus when I read the Dhammapada or the Jataka I > look at it in this way, which is also the way that life is here and > now. The Abhidhamma- which should inform our understanding whenever > we consider- shows us that what we thought were trees and people and > animals and devas even ourself are only conditioned, evanescent > aggregates (khandas). I think knowing this we read the story in a > different way: That it is that the story is an illustration of the > workings of conditionality, especially that condition called kamma. > > D: You may be correct here. I have to say however, that these > illustrations are more of a distraction, forcing our minds to > consider concepts that do not necessarily lead to better > understanding ( at least at my superficial level ). This is > exemplified in other concurrent threads that display anguish possibly > arising from the 'realness' of these types of concepts. Why not be Ø consistent, and concentrate on just the present? Because some of the conditions for the present moment were made in the past. And as the Visuddhimagga says "the succession of kamma and its result can be known in part by one practising insight" Vis. Xix17 >________________________ > >Robert: No control and powerlessness is the sign of anatta. And again this > relates to right insight into the present moment. Someone with wrong > understanding will try to control or change the present moment rather > than insighting it as it is now, rather than understanding the > > conditionality of each moment. > > D: Exactly. That is why it is somewhat confusing to see the > concern about the effects of kamma, they will presumably roll on > uncontrolled. Concentrating on the moment, should remove > consideration of the causes of, or results of kamma, or have I Ø misunderstood this? +++++++++++++++ It all rolls on uncontrolled by any self but utterly by conditions, not randomness. So any act rooted in greed , or delusion or aversion will if supported by other conditions, bring an unpleasant result sometime in the future, this life, next life or subsequent lives. It is the law of nature. There are 2 main aspects to insighting the present moment: 1. with understanding of the causes and; 2. without, simply knowing the moment. THe Dhammapada pradipaya (see p457 of carter) speaks about the development of insight into characteristics: "[1.]to consider the coming into being of rupa on account of ignorance, craving, kamma and nutrition, [2.]and ALSO to see the mere characteristics of its instantaneous coming into being, WITHOUT looking for causative aspect; thus one should consider the rise of rupa in five ways. Likewise to consider the rise of the other 4 khandas in the same way...Thus the rise of the pancakkhanda (five aggregates )is seen in 25 ways. To see that the rise of the khandas is stopped by abolishing the causes:ignorance, craving, kamma and nutrition..in this way the cessation of the agregates should be seen" end quote Acharn Sujin explains that the moments of actual vipassana are far deeper than thinking about causative aspects. The conditions are known without any need for words. When there is `conncentration on the moment' it can be with right view or wrong view, right concentration or wrong. The uninstructed worldling knows something of the characteristics of the present moment, he knows when he craves or feels angry. He can experience all types of subtle vibrations and hardness and coldness etc. If he trains himself by yoga or meditation etc. he can know that these are changing and many other things. But he conceives them wrongly as being me or mine etc.. The enlightened one experiences all these same dhammas but with the eye of wisdom. The "uninstructed worldling" p40 of mulapariyaya "needs to be taught, because he possesses neither learning(agama) nor achievement. For he who possesses neither the learning running counter to the activity of conceiving because he has neglected to study, question, and discriminate the aggregates(khandhas), elements, sense bases (ayatanas) truths, law of conditionality and foundations of mindfulness etc , nor spiritual achievement because he has failed to achieve what should be achived by practice is said to be 'uninstructed'. end qoute. Bhikkhu Bodhi notes in his introduction to mulapariyaya p14 That "in the stage of full understanding of the known, the gross object is analysed into its constituent dhammas and each dhamma is delimited in its distinct characteristic, function, manifestation, and proximate cause. This procedure rectifies the common sense assumption of simple substantial unites, disclosing in its place a world of composite wholes brought temporarily together through a concantenation of conditions" enquote. -------------- My > concern is of misunderstanding a sutta reference without the type of > excellent logical interpretation that you have given above. It is > a reminder to caution, especially for mythological references. [I do > not put other suttas, such as the formiddable Upanissa sutta in the > same category.] > ----------------------- I would be careful about assuming we understand a sutta. I have seen extreme misinterpretations of the Upanisa sutta and almost every other sutta about dependent origination. Someone can read it with the idea that they exist and they can make suffering cease by effort. Whearas the whole method of dependent origination is to show that there is no self and that only natural conditions arise and cease and that ignorance of this very fact perpetuates samsara. ________ > Thank you Robert K. and everyone else for a stimulating, and very > useful discussion. Ø __________ Thank you Dharam. The Dhamma explains everything, For example you consider carefully. Why do you have that ability- not everyone does? It is because of the various complex conditions – profoundly explained by the Buddha in the Patthana- which are accumulated, no Dharam. RobertK 19859 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sun Feb 23, 2003 5:10pm Subject: Late additions Dear Group, I thought that the additions to the Tipitaka were completed by the time they were written down after the Fourth Council four hundred years after the Buddha's parinibbana. But a friend has told me that there were additions right up until 1956 (!?) when several books were added to the Khuddaka Nikaya. Could this be true? Are they in Pali? Were they in existence for millennia? Were they arahant- checked? Why didn't they get the nod previously? Does anyone have a time-line on the inclusion of texts into the Tipitaka? Does this mean Jack Kerouac has a chance? :-) metta, Christine 19860 From: Date: Sun Feb 23, 2003 5:42pm Subject: Way 54, Comm, Clear Comprehension 1 "The Way of Mindfulness" by Soma Thera, Commentary, The Section on the Four Kinds of Clear Comprehension, 1. Clear comprehension in going forwards and backwards, p. 69 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/misc/wayof.html Men of good family, desirous of self-improvement, having become homeless ones in the Dispensation of the Buddha, when living in a group of ten, twenty, fifty or a hundred make a covenant of observance, with these words: "Friends, you renounced not because you were troubled by creditors, not because of fear of punishment from the king, and not because of difficulties of subsistence produced by famine and the like, but because you were desirous of release here. Therefore, you should restrain the defilement that is born when going (forwards or backwards) just in the process of going; you should restrain the defilement that is born when standing just in the process of standing; you should restrain the defilement that is born when sitting just in the process of sitting; and you should restrain the defilement that is born when lying down just in the process of lying down. When after the making of such a covenant of observance they go on to a village for alms, if there are stones, by the road, at distances of half-an-usabha, one usabha and one gavuta, these bhikkhus proceed attending to the subject of meditation with awareness of those stones. If in the course of going (for alms) a defilement of the mind arises in one, just in the course of going one restrains or suppresses it. If one fails to do so one stops. Then he who comes behind one stops too. And one thinks: "This bhikkhu here knows the unclean thought that has arisen in you; unbecoming is that to you." Thus having reproved oneself and developed penetrative insight, one steps into the Plane of the Noble Ones (i.e., arahantship; so ayam bhikkhu tuyham uppanna vitakkam janati ananucchavikam te etanti paticcodetva vipas sanam vaddhetva tattheva ariyabhumim okkamati). If one is not able to do that, one sits down and he who comes behind sits down too, it is said: that just is the method. Should one be not able to enter into the Plane of the Noble Ones, then, one having stopped the defilement, goes, attending to only the subject of meditation. One does not raise the foot with mind bereft of the subject of meditation but should one do so, one, having turned, gets back again even to the earlier step. [Tika] "Desirous of self-improvement" (atta kamati) -- (Those bhikkhus) wishing for personal good and well-being (attano hita sukhamicchanta) -- those wishing for (delighting in, intent on) the Dhamma is the true meaning [dhammacchandavantoti attho] -- by reason of the fact that the Dhamma is truly good and well-being [dhammo hi hitam sukhañca tannimittakam]. Or to the wise the Dhamma is the self owing to the absence of difference (of the Dhamma) from the self, and (because the Dhamma is contained in the self) owing to the (Dhamma's) state of being included in the living being [atha va viññanam attato nibbisesatta attabhava pariyapannatta ca dhammo atta nama]. They (the bhikkhus who have genuinely renounced, in the Dispensation of the Buddha) desire, wish for, that (tam kamenti icchanti].[21] [T] Newly (or recently) -- at the time this sub-commentary was written -- however the reading: desirous of attainment, by way of (moral) good, is seen (adhuna pana attha kamati hitavacakena attha saddena patho dissati]. The true meaning of that is: (those) wishing for good that is connected with the Dhamma or (those) wishing for the Dhamma that is good [dhamma saññuttam hitamicchanta hita bhutam va dhammamicchantati]. [T] "Unbecoming is that" means: unbecoming is another's knowing of one's own defilement [parassa jananam]. [T] This also should be understood as included even by "another's knowing": He (the monk who is trying to overcome the adventitious defilement) makes systematic attention strong on account of (his awareness of) the hungry condition of those coming behind (pacchato agacchantanam chinna bhatta bhava bhayenapi yoniso manasikaram paribruhetiti idampi parassa jananeneva sangahitanti datthabbam]. [T] "Even to the earlier step" means: just to the first footprint made with mind separate from the thought of meditation [purima pade yevati pathamam kammatthana vippayutta cittena uddharita pada valañje yeva]. [T] Like the elder Maha Phussa, the verandah-dweller. With the stories beginning, here, the commentator lays low the misgiving about this observance, for instance, expressed thus: Just impossible is that what is pointed out was, indeed, in this way, practiced before [atthane yevetam kathitam khvayam evam patipanna pubboti asankam nivatteti]. 19861 From: rjkjp1 Date: Sun Feb 23, 2003 5:46pm Subject: Re: Late additions --- Dear Chris., Ask your friend what sections he is referring to. He might mean the Netti -pakarana which tradition says was composed at the time of the Buddha by the arahant maha-kaccana. As I understand it this was not placed in the Tipitaka at the first 4 councils, although it was one of the texts recited at the councils and bought to Sri lanka by mahinda. The Burmese included it in the Tipitaka in their recitation in the fifties - but whether it belongs there or as part of the atthakatha depends on who you talk with. There may have been another couple of books that are more than commentarial that the Burmese decided should be considered part of the Tipitaka. RobertK In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth " wrote: > Dear Group, > > I thought that the additions to the Tipitaka were completed by the > time they were written down after the Fourth Council four hundred > years after the Buddha's parinibbana. But a friend has told me that > there were additions right up until 1956 (!?) when several books were > added to the Khuddaka Nikaya. Could this be true? Are they in > Pali? Were they in existence for millennia? Were they arahant- > checked? Why didn't they get the nod previously? Does anyone have a > time-line on the inclusion of texts into the Tipitaka? Does this > mean Jack Kerouac has a chance? :-) > > metta, > Christine 19862 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sun Feb 23, 2003 6:49pm Subject: Re: Late additions Dear Robert, The info came out of an article by Dhammavuddho Thera, called "Liberation - the relevance of the Sutta-Vinaya" We were having a discussion about a post I had seen elsewhere that mentioned those stories of the Buddha's past lives that I find unpalatable (where he gives away people - well, Yasodhara, multiple times to a variety of fates actually). It was suggested that maybe they came from a source that it wasn't necessary to accept as 'gospel'. The source quoted was Pubacariya of the Venerable Yasodhara Theri, in the Suttanta Pitaka, vol. 25 Khuddaka Nikaya Part II, Apadana Part II, Buddhavamsa-Cariya Pitaka. And, so, my friend gave me the info in the previous post. And if the good monk is correct, that only the Dhammapada, Sutta Nipata, Theragatha, Therigatha, Itivuttaka and Udana are reliable, then maybe I have a loophole? metta, Chris This is the relevant quote: http://www.tathagata.org/~anson/ebud/ebdha163.htm "Khuddaka Nikaya, the fifth, is a minor or smaller collection. Although termed "smaller", it is in fact the largest as more and more books have been added to it over the years. It has grown to 15 books in the Thai and Sri Lankan versions. In 1956, the Sangha Council in Burma added another 3 books, which are not the Buddha's own words. These 3 additions are Questions of King Milinda, Petakopadesa and Nettipakarana. This is how the Khuddaka Nikaya grew from a minor collection to become a major collection! In the future, say in 500 or 1000 years' time, this would definitely create more confusion. Out of the 18 books now, probably only 6 are reliable in that they do not contradict the earliest 4 Nikayas. These 6 reliable books are the Dhammapada, Sutta Nipata, Theragatha, Therigatha, Itivuttaka and Udana." --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1 " wrote: > --- > Dear Chris., > Ask your friend what sections he is referring to. He might mean the > Netti -pakarana which tradition says was composed at the time of the > Buddha by the arahant maha-kaccana. As I understand it this was not > placed in the Tipitaka at the first 4 councils, although it was one > of the texts recited at the councils and bought to Sri lanka by > mahinda. > The Burmese included it in the Tipitaka in their recitation in the > fifties - but whether it belongs there or as part of the atthakatha > depends on who you talk with. There may have been another couple of > books that are more than commentarial that the Burmese decided should > be considered part of the Tipitaka. > RobertK 19863 From: connie Date: Sun Feb 23, 2003 10:21pm Subject: Re: Comfort Christine, thank you for reminding me I was going to read the Class Notes. Glad you liked Thanissaro's "Authenticity" article. A lot of the Buddha's teachings are scary. The burning house. The fire in the turban. I thought of The All is Aflame when I read "at rebirth, the internal fire-element found in kamma-born kalpas combines with the external fire element and starts producing organic temperature born kalapas. Thereafter, fire element in the kalapas born of all four causes produces organic temperature born kalapas throughout the course of existence" (from the Class Notes).... Thanks, RobM. In a sense, we already are Kamma Lab Rats and a lifetime is a lifetime long even if the cage cleaner thinks ours is short. Lucky us... we're the rats with a little genetic imprinting and we've figured out it's a maze. Lucky? Just like now, we know there's a stream somewhere and we're trying to get to it. Half afraid we'll get lost or never make it... dosa... and are trying to cram all the good stuff into the backpack that we can, hoping we've got what we need and it'll be easy to grab when the fire goes out. When I'm a rat, am I sometimes afraid I'll be reborn as a lab worker? Or don't I have that self concept and pride in my rat racing skills? This is one of those days when I argue with myself about everything like I'm not happy with just one imaginary friend. I was going to say I agree it's kinda lonely practicing in a non-buddhist country and the answer to myself was "everything that comes to your senses is a a guest" or a teacher... ala Ajarn Sujin. How can we be lonely? How can we not be alone even in a crowd even everything is so temporary? You can always pretend you're a visiting forest monk. Do I want buddhist friends because I'm impatient and think I'd get somewhere faster? I need to learn how to read and follow the signs on the path? Maybe I just have to trust that even if I'm still lost in the undergrowth, I'm working towards the path. Like you say, at least I've met up with some other people headed the same direction. Not many, but then, it's not supposed to be widely travelled and it's probably a bit overgrown. I think one of the scariest thoughts is that it's better not to practice at all than to practice wrong. I hope the days are lightening up for you. peace, connie 19864 From: christine_forsyth Date: Mon Feb 24, 2003 0:06am Subject: Re: [dsg] Comfort Dear Nina, Thank you for your post - many things you mention struck home. I found what you had to say very useful and quite humbling really ... always coming back to the present moment, what is arising now, and kamma, conditions and no-control. It is true that though all of us are together in this life of suffering - we can never know what another is experiencing. Your father is a fortunate man, and I have no doubt he realises it, to have such a faithful, caring, understanding daughter and son-in- law. Even when we are at our most unreasonably angriest, deep down we still understand and treasure those who love us. You and Lodewijk make it safe for his anger and distress to surface, simply because of the love you bear for him, and the fact that he can trust you not to turn away. The great gift you give to him is accepting him exactly as he is, with patience. The balm you bring him is music. May we all be so fortunate in our dying. with respect, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: <<>> > We are now in the midst of problems. My father cannot bear to die, but he is > slowly dying. It makes him cross with the whole world including us. He does > not want to see us, nor speak on the phone with us. Last week we could do > some musical healing, but we do not know whether we have access to him > today, to soften his heart with our gift of music. We shall try. This makes > us very sad. So you see, you are not the only one. > I can go back to childhood, my father's attitude to me, a complicated > relationship. My vipaka, produced by past kamma. My father's childhood, his > education, his accumulated inclinations stemming from past lives. We can go > on and on, but impossible to trace the past, just stories. If we try to find > out it will drive us crazy. > Ch: Apart from that, mostly I feel Buddhism currently seems to offer > stoicism -'no control' and 'endurance'. > N: We know that patience and endurance is the highhest ascetism. But it can > be learnt little by little, beginning with small, seemingly unimportant > happenings. No control: but it helps to know that whatever happens is only, > only a conditioned dhamma. Attaching less importance to your own moods, > doubts, sadness. > May we all see the great comfort in the Dhamma, > Nina. > P.S. And yes, he wanted his music, we had access. He does not eat. But in a > few days we can come again with our music. Hard work for us to rehearse, but > I like it. 19865 From: samuel rajaseelan Date: Mon Feb 24, 2003 3:55am Subject: Re: [dsg] Comfort hello friends, i am S.Samuel Rajaseelan.i am new to these group.i am very eager to do meditation.plz teach me. i will check mail once in a week.plz reply me. thank u friends, bye frm raja 19866 From: smallchap Date: Mon Feb 24, 2003 7:25am Subject: Re: vipassana Dear Nina, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > > see below. > op 20-02-2003 03:22 schreef smallchap op > smallchap@y...: > > > > S: With sammadhi as the > > supporting factor to cause the mind to be aleart yet passive, and > > with an equanimous attitude, one should be able to walk away from the > > pitfalls. > N: As I see it, it is panna that clearly discerns when there is attachment > and when there is detachment, and also, what leads to detachment from self. > Panna knows, understands. It is accompanied by samadhi, but samadhi focusses > on the object panna understands, panna is the leader. The equanimous > attitude, to be more precise, there are many kinds and degrees of > equanimity, upekkha. But I think you mean in conventional sense, not being > distressed by one's clinging. S: Thank you very much for your patience. Yes. I understand there are many degrees of upekkha. Here it means without clinging and aversion. It is interesting that you mentioned panna as the leader. I can learn much from you here. Since panna is the leader, can we safely say that there is no vipassana knowledge without panna? Or, put it another way, when one acquires vipassana knowledge, one is said to have acquired panna as well? Then again, how is panna developed? Before one develops panna, one is sure to encounter the pitfalls, or may be not. Is there any other way a worldling can develop panna without being trapped in the pitfalls? > S: One question here. What do you mean by silabbata paramasa? > > I am sure here it does not mean attachment to rules and rituals. > > N: In the Buddha's time some people behaved like a dog and believed they > could get a result from this practice. The word stands for wrong practice, > practice that does not lead to the goal: detachment from the wrong view of > self, and the eradication of all defilements. > We have to verify whether a certain practice is based on the teachings and > we have to find out whether it leads to detachment from the concept of self. > That is, the idea of, I do it, I practice. > Some people may select the objects of sati and panna, but this will not lead > to the goal. > Let us first see what the objects of sati and panna are. > "Path of Discriminatyion", I, Treatise on Knoiwledge, Ch 1: All: > "Bhikkhus, all is to be directly known. And what is that all that is to be > directly known? ...{201 dhammas}: > Materiality, feeling, perception, formations, consciousness is to be > directly known...Craving for visible objects, > sounds...odours...flavours...tangible objects..ideas is to be directly > known." S: Thank you. You reminded me to read the book that I have not touched for so many years since I bought it. > Lobha is the second noble Truth, it has to be known. When? Now, when it > appears. It is so difficult to detect because it can be very subtle. When it > is not subtle but more intense it may happen that we do not want it to be > true. But it is reality and if there is no awareness, it cannot be realized > as non-self. If one tries to suppress akusala, how can it be known as it is? S: I have a problem here. Do you mean lobha as the cause of suffering? You are right. We don't suppress akusala. > The all should be known, no exception. Even the tendency to suppress akusala > should be known: it is a conditioned nama. This is very important. > We read in the "Kindred Sayings" (IV, Salayatanavagga, Second Fifty, Ch 2, § > 70: > Then the vennerable Upavåna came to see the Exalted One:- " 'Of immediate > use is the Norm (Dhamma)! Of immediate use is the Norm!' is the saying, > lord. Pray, lord, to what extent is the Norm of immediate use, apart from > time, bidding one come and see, leading on (to the Goal), to be experienced, > each for himself, by the wise?" > "Now here (under my teaching), Upavåna, when a brother sees an object with > the eye, he experiences objects, conceives a passion for objects, and of > that passion for objects which exists for him personally he is aware, 'I > have personally a passion for objects.'..." > The same is said with regard to the other doorways. S: Thank you. I benefit much from your quoting the reference. It forces me to go back to the text. > N: The Buddha then explains that when there is no desire for objects, he is > aware that there is no desire. S: I suppose the no desire come first, followed by its awareness? > If we realize akusala as only a conditioned nama it is most helpful, even > now. We do not have aversion about it; aversion means, still more akusala. > At the moment of awareness, the citta is kusala. This is the Middle Way: not > avoiding to know akusala. If one avoids to know it, it is very dangerous, > because it causes delusion. One believes that there are no tendencies to > akusala, that one is so good. > Even when sati and panna are still very much of a beginner, it is already > beneficial to be aware of akusala. When we see it as a conditioned reality > we can also understand others when they say disagreeable things or commit > bad actions. The cittas which motivates speech and action arose because of > accumulated tendencies, and they have fallen away already when we are > thinking about someone's speech or action. It will be easier to forgive. > Any time is time for practice. Are we distracted? That is a reality. > In Bangkok we were reminded about wrong practice. When there is a moment of > awareness, we should ask ourselves: do I want more? If we try to find ways > and means to have more awareness, it is wrong practice, it prevents us to > see the anattaness, also of sati and panna. > Or we may take thinking of the stages of insight for insight, for direct > understanding. Then we are led by lobha and we may go into the wrong > direction. So many ways to go wrong, because we have accumulated ignorance > and clinging for aeons. So long as we are not sotapannas there will all the > time be the inclination to wrong practice. It should be detected as such. S: I learn much from the above post. I have learnt that at the level of bhanga-~naa.na, one needs little effort to be aware of anicca, dukkha or anatta from moment to moment. > N: Next time about sankhaarupekkhaa. S: Anxiously waiting. Thank you. smallchap 19867 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Feb 24, 2003 10:05am Subject: Re: [dsg] No-self, no-control, from Visuddhimagga Hi Robert, I had to laugh, that is a good one about not desiring. Nina op 22-02-2003 20:59 schreef rjkjp1 op rjkjp1@y...: > --- > Wrong > view believes that we are desiring but it is simply a conditioned > element, lobha performing its function. Or wrong view believes that > we are not desiring while it is only alobha performing its function. 19868 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Feb 24, 2003 10:05am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: cittas in process op 23-02-2003 11:47 schreef robmoult op rob.moult@j...: I went to another Buddhist > library and they had the Patthana but not U Narada's Guide. I spent > a couple of hours going through the Patthana trying to find the > references, without any luck. Dear Rob M Look for example at p. 3, proximity condition, and for lokuttara process, p. 406, 407. Or feeling triplet, p. 339, Also registering-consciousness is named in the Patthana. You have to look all over at the different triplets. As I wrote before, Path of Discrimination has the complete process under: Behaviour, cariya, p. 77, 78, they are all there, using the word principle for dhatu, element. I hope this helps somewhat, Nina. 19869 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Feb 24, 2003 10:05am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:stages of insight Dear Howard, see below op 20-02-2003 19:57 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: >> >Nina wrote: we may think of khandha as a whole, it seems as if it is a concept. It is >> a >>> concept so long as we have not yet directly experienced the khandhas. When >>> the third stage of tender insight is reached the khandhas can be directly >>> experienced, dhammas that arise and fall away, that are past, present and >>> future. >========================== Howard: Is that the stage called "bhanga"? Nina; No, this is the second stage of principal insight, mahavipassana, and follows upon the first one: udayabbhaya ~naa.na, clearly discerning the arising and falling away of one reality at a time. The third stage of tender insight is sammasana~naa.na, the arising and falling of groups of realities, not as clear as udayabhaya ~naa.na. As to bhanga ~naa.na, knowledge of dissolution, here the impermanence becomes clearer. When detachment grows (no self who detaches) one does not hold on to realities and sees more clearly the falling away. All these stages cannot arise if we still mix up nama and rupa, and take them together. Nina. 19870 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Feb 24, 2003 10:05am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Calm and Insight.special practice? Dear Swee Boon, op 19-02-2003 17:58 schreef nidive op nidive@y...: > (4) restlessness concerning the Dhamma well under control > -develops insight into the mental defilements and restraints them > through painful habitual restraint; > -develops insight further when mental defilements have been > suppressed successfully; > -achieves tranquility through constant suppression of the mental > defilements, namely the five hindrances. N: we agree that the fourth type is sukkha vipassaka, also the Co to A 3, 100, explained that. Where there is ekodibhava, only one object, it is lokuttara citta that experiences nibbana. Here the attainment of arahatship has been described. The ATI translation is not clear, just the vipassana upakilesas hinder, they have to be overcome. But lobha, dosa, etc. do not hinder , they can be objects of insight. You have doubts about this. I looked up B. Hennepola: He accepts sukkhavipassaka, but still wants to insert a special practice, suppressing the hindrances and concentrating on the three characteristics, stressing a momentary concentration, having the same function as the basic jhana of the serenity vehicle. He mixes samatha and vipassana, but they are two distinct practices. He makes vipassana into a kind of samatha practice. The similarity between kamavacara to jhanacitta or to lokuttara citta is not strange. You write: five hindrances (mental defilements). > > Even so, the moment of access (upacara) in the Lokuttara Process > must also suppress the five hindrances (mental defilements). And > this suppression cannot happen without us practising concentration > to the level where these mental defilements can be suppressed easily. > > Even if panna has reached the level where it can issue in the > Lokuttara Process, yet in one who has no concentration that can > suppress the mental defilements effectively just for those few > moments, Magga can never arise. The arising of Magga depends on the > effective suppression of the mental defilements at those critical > moments. > Panna is not enough.> N: Let us first talk about practice at this moment. If we select the objects is that knowing the all? Will that help us to know all our accumulations as only conditioned dhammas? Should we not know our lobha and dosa? Otherwise it is ours all the time. Should awareness of whatever dhamma arises not lead us to the anattaness of all dhammas? It is a sure and balanced way. Akusala arises, then there is awareness, and for that moment the citta is kusala citta with sati and panna. This is the restraint of the sense-doors. It is not forceful, not painful at all, it can come naturally, panna takes the lead, not concentration. Time will come for the stages of vipassana nana: any, any dhammas that appear are objects of insight. Akusala citta is different from rupa, citta is different from feeling. Different dhammas (any, any kind) appear to vipassana nana and they are clearly distinct from each other, otherwise we take them for self and it is not vipassana nana. In the course of insight panna realizes more and more that whatever appears (also akusala, the all!) is dukkha, anicca, anatta. These are characteristics inherent in the dhammas that appear. There is no special practice of concentration on just characteristics. In the Katavatthu (Points of Controversy), Ch II, 16, we read: May a man by merely repeating the word dukkha induce the four stages of enlightenment, as the Pubbaseliyas (a sect) believed? Thus we can recite: dukkha, dukkha, and concentrate on it, it will not lead to anything. Why should suddenly our practice be changed when it is the time for enlightenment? I understand what you think when looking at the process of enlightenment. It is like this: suppose akusala citta arises shortly before enlightenment, then panna can take it as object, why not? At that moment the citta is kusala citta with panna: it realizes that object either as dukkha, as anicca or as anatta, through the mind-door, then the whole process follows: parikamma, etc. until magga, phala. Within that process there is no akusala citta, but it can be the object and seen as anatta, etc. You read about the four ways of progress. I have seen this in connection with jhanalabhi, but here I shall look at the co. Nina. Weight Age Gender Female Male 19871 From: robmoult Date: Mon Feb 24, 2003 0:55pm Subject: [dsg] Re: cittas in process Hi Nina, I really appreciate this. As ususal, I am traveling, so it will be at least a week before I can check this out for myself. However, from these references, can we conclude that Nyanatiloka (please refer to quotation in prior message) was incorrect on this point? Metta, Rob M :-) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > op 23-02-2003 11:47 schreef robmoult op > rob.moult@j...: > I went to another Buddhist > > library and they had the Patthana but not U Narada's Guide. I spent > > a couple of hours going through the Patthana trying to find the > > references, without any luck. > Dear Rob M > Look for example at p. 3, proximity condition, and for lokuttara process, p. > 406, 407. Or feeling triplet, p. 339, Also registering- consciousness is > named in the Patthana. You have to look all over at the different triplets. > As I wrote before, Path of Discrimination has the complete process under: > Behaviour, cariya, p. 77, 78, they are all there, using the word principle > for dhatu, element. > I hope this helps somewhat, > Nina. 19872 From: Date: Mon Feb 24, 2003 2:17pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:stages of insight Thanks, Nina. With metta, Howard In a message dated 2/24/03 1:07:02 PM Eastern Standard Time, nilo@e... writes: > > Dear Howard, see below > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 19873 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Feb 24, 2003 7:36pm Subject: Re: [dsg] AN IV, 41/Right concentration (was, More on Forest and Lone Dwelling) Howard --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Jon - H: As I've mentioned before, I don't remember sutta references well. I do recall much of the content, but not what was read where. (Obviously, it's not important enough to me.) In any case, I'm not eager to do the sort of search required to for me to provide the references you request below. J: Understood, Howard. No-one need feel obliged to give references, and I hope you didn’t think I was saying otherwise. I was simply indicating why I might not be responding on those points (I find it easier, and more useful, to respond on specific texts, as in our discussion below). H: But, Jon, you are very well read in the Dhamma, and what I referred to aren't obscure writings, so I have considerable confidence that you have seen them at one point or another. J: Thanks, but not that well read at all (just a casual, and fairly random, browser ;-)). Yes, I’m sure I would have seen something on the matter, but whether what I’ve seen/have in mind is the same as what you’ve seen/have in mind I’ve no way of knowing ;-)) H: At one point below you write: "However, nowhere does the sutta say that 'ordinary-state abilities remain' during the jhanas." But this statement follows just shortly after I point out how it says in the Anupada Sutta that a laundry list of standard mental operations exist throughout the jhanas except the 8th. Specifically, I give the following: <> J: The mental factors that accompany a moment of consciousness are always of the same quality, plane etc as the citta they accompany. Thus the ‘universal’ mental factors of contact, feeling etc that arise with jhana citta are of the same jhanic quality as the jhana citta, just as when those factors arise with lokuttara (supramundane) consciousness they are lokuttara factors, and not lokiya (mundane) factors. So I would not see this passage as indicating that ‘standard mental operations’ exist during the jhanas. H: To me, this shows ongoing contact and awareness, ongoing mindfulness, and wisdom which knows aniccata, and which knows the inadequacy of even such a refined state as the "sphere of nothingness." J: The insight that directly experiences these factors is not insight that arises during jhana (i.e., is not itself a jhana citta), but arises immediately after the jhana citta has fallen away, as I understand the explanation given elsewhere in the teachings. As the sutta indicates, this ability is confined to those of 'great wisdom' like Sariputta. Jon 19874 From: christine_forsyth Date: Mon Feb 24, 2003 8:00pm Subject: kamma from not acting or not speaking? Dear Group, Is mundane right action just that ... does it have to be an action? i.e. could 'wrong action' (miccha kammanta) ever be 'no action', or abstaining from action that could have produced a greater good? Could 'wrong speech' (miccha-vaca) ever be 'not speaking' when speaking out may prevent great wrong? Who is responsible (i.e. inherits the results of kamma) for decisions made in a democracy, where the decision makers are voted in by each free adult? If the voting adults support and speak in favour of the decision for war, or just go along with/or don't oppose that decision, do they share the kamma and vipaka? How is it viewed in Buddhism if a person doesn't do something, when they are well able to, that might influence the decision makers and prevent the doing of great harm? metta, Christine 19875 From: rjkjp1 Date: Mon Feb 24, 2003 9:57pm Subject: Re: Comfort --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth rebirth does. Somehow most things in Buddhism (once you get used to > them) seem to follow a certain logic, a predictable lawfulness, even > have a certain justice. But the cuti-citta ... there doesn't seem to > be logic, lawfulness or justice - just blind chance. One wonders why > consequences could not be closer to the initiating action. Or why > there isn't a Statute of Limitations... > > metta, > Christine > +++++++++++++ Dear Christine, The kamma that determines rebirth is still conditioned. It is of 4 types: Nina writes about this: http://www.zolag.co.uk/kamco.html We read in the "Visuddhimagga"( XIX, 14-17) about different ways of classifying kamma. Kamma can be classified as weighty, habitual, death-threshold and reserve or cumulative by being performed (Visuddhimagga XIX, 15,16). Weighty (garuka) kamma is very unprofitable kamma, such as the killing of a parent, or very profitable kamma, such as jhanacitta. Habitual (acinna) kamma is what one usually and repeatedly does. Death-threshold (asanna) kamma is what is vividly remembered just before death. Reserve or cumulative kamma (kamma katatta) is kamma which is not included in the other three kinds, but which has been performed in the past. The latter produces rebirth if there is no opportunity for one of the other three kinds to do so." She further writes: "Do we know which type of kamma we usually and repeatedly perform? Is it akusala kamma through body, speech or mind, or is it kusala kamma? When we perform kusala kamma such as generosity do we know whether the kusala citta is accompanied by panna or unaccompanied by panna ? The development of satipatthana, right understanding of nama and rupa, is kusala kamma. When we see the benefit of considering nama and rupa over and over again, in ones daily life, it can become habitual kamma, often performed. Then panna can be developed which leads to the end of rebirth-producing kamma." We are not yet able to come to the end of rebirth but I think be relaxed Christine and enjoy the opportunties for kusala. This is the time of a Buddha -sasana, a time when the deva worlds full up because of the abundant good done by beings who listen to the true Dhamma. RobertK 19876 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Mon Feb 24, 2003 10:13pm Subject: RE: [dsg] 4 noble truths Dear Jan, My name is Kom Tukovinit. My mom and dad are Chinese, but I don't know how to speak Chinese either. I was born in Thailand, and my first language is Thai. Do you know how to speak Chinese also? > - Can you tell me some information about the 4 noble > truths because I am reading a book about it. > You ask a very good question. The 4 noble truths are the highest teachings unique only to the Buddha. In explaining the 4 noble truths, the Buddha teaches 4 things: 1) Suffering: why people suffer 2) Cause of suffering: what brings suffering to people 3) End of suffering 4) Path toward the end of suffering These are the most difficult teachings of the Buddha: one (a person with great wisdom) who really understands these truths know what the Buddha taught and who he really was. Most of us (including myself) understands only a little bit about these truths. This will take a while to explain, so I will just explain the 1st noble truth today: Suffering. The Buddha said this in brief (with some alterations): Now this, monks, is the noble truth of suffering:[1] Birth is suffering, aging is suffering, death is suffering; sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair are suffering; association with the unbeloved is suffering, separation from the loved is suffering, not getting what is wanted is suffering. In short, the five clinging-aggregates are stressful. Birth is suffering. (Why do you think the Buddha said Birth is suffering?). You can see that the sufferings that people go thru in their lives are not possible unless they are born. For example, sometimes you might be sad or unhappy because you are hungry, but you can't get food fast enough. If you weren't born, then this unhappiness would not be possible. Aging is suffering. Nobody likes to get old. You might not know this now, since you probably can't wait to get older. But if you ask adults, they don't like getting older. Because when you become older, you are less good looking (for most people), you are less strong, you tend to get sick more, and you tend to have more pain. Yet, nobody who is born escapes getting old, even the most powerful king. Death is suffering. Are you afraid of death? Are you afraid that somebody you love would die [when I was a kid, I thought about this a lot]? Most people fear death: they don't want to die. They don't want people they love to die. Yet, nobody who is born escapes death. One day (sooner than I think) I will die, so all the people I love. Sorrow is suffering. Do you like being sad? Most people don't. We do things to avoid being sad. Yet, nobody who is born can avoid being sad. Even the richest, the most good looking, the most powerful are sad sometimes. If there is happiness, there must be sorrow. This is how things work. Lamentation is like when you are so sad that you show the sadness to other people. Pain. Do you like it when it is painful? When I was a kid, I really disliked seeing a nurse with a needle. Everybody suffers pain at some point time, some more than the others. Association with the unbeloved. Do you have somebody you don't like? When you see them, or hear them, or think about them, this brings mental pain. Yet, everybody have to stay with, deal with people they dislike sometimes. Separation from the loved is suffering. Do you have something/somebody that you really like? When you have to part with them or leave them (or they leave you), you feel sad. Everybody separates from whom/what they love sometimes. Not getting one wants is suffering. Do you ever want something that you cannot have, maybe because your parents wouldn't allow you to have it? We want a lot of things in our lives, but we will not get everything, and this brings suffering. There are other things that are sufferings that the Buddha taught, and we haven't even begun to talk about that. Do you understand the truth of suffering better? Do you disagree with anything we have talked about? Looking forward to hearing from you, kom 19877 From: christine_forsyth Date: Tue Feb 25, 2003 2:16am Subject: [dsg] Re: Comfort Dear Azita, Is there no way I can opt out of this no-control? :-) At least it doesn't scare the living daylights out of me like it did a year ago. Thanks for the good sense in your post - though you have my permission to leave the last seven or eight words off in future. :-) metta, Chris --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, azita gill > > dear Chris, > ...and isn't it a wonderful reminder that 'we' > cannot control the cuti-citta anymore than we can > control now, this very moment. But we can be aware of > this present moment, because there is nothing else to > be aware of anyway. > Was listening to a tape today where K.Sujin said > that we are always turning away from this present > moment, and how true that is. Always wanting something > that we haven't got, think we need, worry about what > we should have done etc. etc. > I remember in discussions with Ven.Dhammadharo, > where he reminded us that to follow the Buddha-Dhamma > meant going against the current of society, and I > always pictured a raging, flooding river where > everything was going one way and lonely little me was > trying to swim against that huge force of water. > Keep smiling, be patient, may wisdom grow, for we > never know when cuti-citta will arise. > Azita 19878 From: christine_forsyth Date: Tue Feb 25, 2003 2:20am Subject: Re: Comfort Hi Connie, You make me smile when you manage to make even a lab rat's life seem worthwhile. :-) Why do I think I have any more control of what happens than he does? I like what you say about a lifetime is a lifetime long, whether we're the rat or the cage cleaner. Guess we just have to make the most of every moment - which is all a lifetime is anyway. Is there any special practice? I think just being aware of whatever presents itself at the sense doors is a task in itself. And, yes, thank you, things are lightening up ... nothing lasts forever - good, bad, or indifferent. metta, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "connie" wrote: 19879 From: christine_forsyth Date: Tue Feb 25, 2003 2:22am Subject: Re: Comfort Dear Robert, I wasn't aware of some of the things that are kusala kamma - I literally thought it was good deeds by word or action. I didn't know that considering nama and rupa over and over again could become kusala habitual kamma. Knowing the four types of kamma makes things a little clearer (I now remember touching on this in RobM's Class Notes once - if only I wouldn't forget what I learn.). Weighty and Habitual kamma seems to be the ones to be aware of - the ones we may be able to affect. Not sure how my balance sheet is doing, but I tend to think the akusala side is way ahead, particularly through speech and thought. I wonder how one balances relaxing and enjoying opportunities for kusala with practicing as if our hair were on fire ... :-) Thanks for writing, Robert, and for quoting Nina's great post. metta, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1 " wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth stuff about the last thought determining the next > > rebirth does. Somehow most things in Buddhism (once you get used > to > > them) seem to follow a certain logic, a predictable lawfulness, > even > > have a certain justice. But the cuti-citta ... there doesn't seem > to > > be logic, lawfulness or justice - just blind chance. One wonders > why > > consequences could not be closer to the initiating action. Or why > > there isn't a Statute of Limitations... > > > > metta, > > Christine > > +++++++++++++ > Dear Christine, > The kamma that determines rebirth is still conditioned. It is of 4 > types: > Nina writes about this: > http://www.zolag.co.uk/kamco.html > We read in the "Visuddhimagga"( XIX, 14-17) about different ways of > classifying kamma. Kamma can be classified as weighty, habitual, > death-threshold and reserve or cumulative by being performed > (Visuddhimagga XIX, 15,16). Weighty (garuka) kamma is very > unprofitable kamma, such as the killing of a parent, or very > profitable kamma, such as jhanacitta. Habitual (acinna) kamma is what > one usually and repeatedly does. Death-threshold (asanna) kamma is > what is vividly remembered just before death. Reserve or cumulative > kamma (kamma katatta) is kamma which is not included in the other > three kinds, but which has been performed in the past. The latter > produces rebirth if there is no opportunity for one of the other > three kinds to do so." > She further writes: > > "Do we know which type of kamma we usually and repeatedly perform? Is > it akusala kamma through body, speech or mind, or is it kusala kamma? > When we perform kusala kamma such as generosity do we know whether > the kusala citta is accompanied by panna or unaccompanied by panna ? > The development of satipatthana, right understanding of nama and > rupa, is kusala kamma. When we see the benefit of considering nama > and rupa over and over again, in ones daily life, it can become > habitual kamma, often performed. Then panna can be developed which > leads to the end of rebirth-producing kamma." > > > We are not yet able to come to the end of rebirth but I think be > relaxed Christine and enjoy the opportunties for kusala. This is the > time of a Buddha -sasana, a time when the deva worlds full up because > of the abundant good done by beings who listen to the true Dhamma. > RobertK 19880 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Tue Feb 25, 2003 2:30am Subject: Re: [dsg] About meditation Hi, Raja, and welcome to the list from me. To get an idea of your interest, could you let us know why you would like to learn more about meditation. That would help me to give a more appropriate answer. Got to run for now (flight about to board) Jon PS Pls feel free to share any info about your background or interest in Buddhism. --- samuel rajaseelan wrote: > > hello friends, > i am S.Samuel Rajaseelan.i am new to these > group.i am very eager to do meditation.plz teach me. > i will check mail once in a week.plz reply > me. > thank u friends, > bye > frm > raja 19881 From: Sarah Date: Tue Feb 25, 2003 4:59am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: cittas in process Hi Rob M ( Nina & All), I started this reply a couple of days ago but got hit by some mildish food poisoning at the weekend;-( ... I’m fine now. Sorry to hear about your frustrating searches in the Patthana. I believe all the details given in the Abhidhammathasangaha are based on the Tipitaka texts and ancient commentaries. ..... "robmoult " wrote: > Here is a quote from the Appendix of Nyanatiloka's Manual of > Buddhist Terms (Appendix lists terms found only in commentaries, not > in Tipitaka): > citta-víthi, as well as all terms for the various functions within > the processes of consciousness, such as ávajjana-citta, > sampaticchana, santírana, votthapana, javana, tadárammana, bhavanga, > cuti: none of these terms is found in the Sutta Canon. except > javana, in Pts.M. Even in the Ahh. Canon (e.g. Patth) only javana > and bhavanga are twice or thrice briefly mentioned. The stages, > however, must have been more or less known. .. > Sarah, if Nyanatiloka is wrong, please give me the specific > reference in the Patthana so I can look it up. ..... I think the point being made (I’m sure correctly) was that although the specific terms were not used or hardly used in the Sutta Pitaka and Abhidhamma Pitaka, the processes themselves can be understood there, although full explanations are only found in the commentaries. Another very useful book is Nyantiloka’s “Guide through the Abhidhamma Pitaka”, a small book with a wealth of detail including comments and quotes on these points. In Nina’s earlier post, she gave a detailed example of this from the Ptsm: http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/m13819.html She also wrote there: “You see, the nucleus of the process is there. It does not matter that names are different, they have their own place in the order of the process, which is citta niyama: certainty, definiteness. It is like a natural law. It could not be altered, it is amazing when we come to think of it. How do cittas know? They cannot do otherwise but follow this way, viithi. The Path of Discrimination is Part of the Khuddaka Nikaya, thus of the Suttanta. As to the Abhidhamma, the first Book, Dhsg, enumerates cittas arising in different processes. The Vibhanga, the Book of Analysis, under Analysis of Elements, refers to the processes. So does the Patthana, Conditional Relations, under: contiguity-condition, anantara paccaya.” ..... Speaking for myself, without a more detailed understanding of the Abhidhammattha Sangaha, U Narada’s Guide and the first books and commentaries of the Abhidhamma, it is extremely hard to follow the Patthana (Conditional Relations)itself. In the Patthana, there is detail given of the processes under anantara paccaya (proximity), vol1, p406.* By understanding about the distinction between cittas of the various jatis (kusala, akusala, vipaka, kiriya)and by understanding something of the processes (as elaborated in B.Bodhi’s CMA with a chart of the processes, pp 153 onwards), one can mostly make sense of it, though the translation doesn’t give the Pali which makes it a little harder too for me. Again, if I read U Narada’s ‘Guide’, ch 111, p102 on proximity condition, I can understand just a little in the Patthana transl on p.3 in relation to processes. I’m most interested, however, to consider the significance of these processes in daily life and to the understanding of anatta, kamma and so on. I liked Connie’s analogy to the rat in the maze - indeed we’re fortunate if there is some inkling that it is a maze. This doesn’t necessarily make it any easier to find the way out, but at least the purpose is clear, even if there is a lot of fogetting that it is a maze on route. By understanding that the process has to be just the way it is and that each citta follows another just as it is explained helps us to understand anatta. As U Narada writes: “There is no chance for it to arise as it likes but it does so in accordance with the fixed order of the mental process with respect to function and stage so that there is no break between the cessation of the preceding mental state and the arising of the subsequent mental state.” In other words, there is no room at all for a self or will to make any choices or changes. The maze is conditioned to be just as it is. The ‘skill’ of the rat is not in trying to change or break the maze but in understanding its ‘nature’ and ‘following’ it wisely. During the last couple of days when I was pretty sick, it was so easy to have an idea of unpleasant bodily aches and sensations for long periods of time and to feel somewhat miserable. How comforting it was when occasionally there was some wise reflection (even if only at a thinking level) about how very brief the moments of vipaka citta are, (the experiencing unpleasant object through the body sense accompanied by unpleasant feeling) and how these moments of experience are followed by at least 17 other cittas and often by many mind door processes as well. One moment of bodily experience and then there can be all the proliferating you were discussing in your other post, leading to long stories about ‘poor me’ and forgetting entirely about realities at this moment. Azita just reminded us about how in effect we're always "turning away from this present moment.....Always wanting something we haven't got, think we need......". Rather than try to figure out exactly how the proliferating occurs, just a moment of awareness of the thinking, the feeling, the experiencing through the body sense or the other sense doors (there’s still seeing, hearing and so on at these times too) is so very precious and these moments of understanding help plant those new ‘healthy’ seeds. I appreciated TG’s comments about the risk of losing the plot (i.e missing the importance of present awareness and understanding which 'cut' the story) whilst trying to figure out the mechanics when we read a sutta such as the Honeyball Sutta. Just as the the cittas in the process or the maze have to run in their own fixed order, so the team of cetasikas (or Htoo’s king and advisers) have to all play their respective roles at each moment. So I agree with you when you stress the role of sanna marking at each moment in the mind door processes involved with proliferation. Other cetasikas like vitakka, vicara, ekaggata, manasikara, phassa and cetana (to name a few that quickly come to mind in this respect) are also playing their important roles too, don’t you think? I’ve rambled on enough (put it down this time to a touch of fever;-)). Look forward to more comments. Metta, Sarah *Resultant Triplet97 (406)- my suggestions in brackets -pls correct!. “97. (1) Resultant state is related to resultant state by proximity condition. Preceding resultant aggregates are related to subsequent resultant aggregates by proximity condition. Five-fold consciousness is related to resultant mind-element by proximity condition. Resultant mind-element is related to resultant mind-consciousness element by proximity condition. (11) Resultant state is related to state which is neither resultant nor producing resultant state by proximity condition . Life continuum is related to advertence by proximity condition. Resultant mind-consciousness element is related to functional mind-consciousness by proximity condition. (111)State producing resultant state is related to state producing resultant state by proximate condition......” ..... Also Nyantiloka quotes from the Patthana in his Guide through the Abhidhamma Pitaka, p119: “Any preceding wholesome phenomenon is to any succeeding karmically neutral (avyaakata0 phenomenon, a condition by way of proximity”. “Any prededing unwholesome (akusala) phenomenon is to any (immediately) succeeding unwholesome (javana)...to any succeeding neutral phenomenon (registering moment) a condition by way of proximity.” ================== 19882 From: Sarah Date: Tue Feb 25, 2003 5:26am Subject: RE: [dsg] Janice's letter (long posts with Jataka tale) Hi Kom & Janice, I like all your letters very much. You were discussing the height of the Buddha and also the colour. in a book I have*, it shows the heights of the previous 25 Buddhas. Most of them were of giant size and lived for hundreds of thousands of years. The shortest and also the only one to live under one hundred years was the last Gotama Buddha. According to this detail, he was 18 hattha or cubits in height. Now it seems that one hattha is the distance from the elbow to the tip of the middle finger. Even for the last shortest Buddha, that seems very tall to me. What do you think? Would this be about 20 feet, Kom? Janice, if you remind me, I’ll show you the details in the book when we meet. In the same book it also says that the bodies of the Buddhas were “more brilliant than the sun and the moon”. Hope this helps. Metta, Sarah (AKA Mrs A.) *Buddhavamsa (Chronicle of Buddhas), PTS, table in intro by I.B Horner. ================================================== --- Kom Tukovinit wrote: > Hi Janice, > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Star Kid [mailto:starkidsclub@y...] > > > > How big was the real Buddha? > > I don't know how big the Buddha was. I haven't come across > the description of how tall the Buddha was (maybe others can > help). There were many descriptions about the Buddha, but I > don't remember seeing how tall. > > > What color was the real Buddha? > > His skin color is said to be golden, probably not the > metallic golden that you see in temples, but it is said to > be brightly golden. 19883 From: Sarah Date: Tue Feb 25, 2003 5:59am Subject: Re: [dsg] Perfections, Ch 7, Patience, no 27 Dear Nina, I’ve found all the reminders on patience really helpful. I feel I need to have them recylcled continuously actually;-) I’m rather sorry we’ve come to the end of the chapter. Thankyou for posting your translations. May we all learn to “undertake the task of friendship” and learn how we may become more ‘admirable friends’ and see the danger of the “latent tenencies like germs” always ready to reappear. . “One should have patience to refrain from aversion, displeasure, regret or feeling slighted by the action and speech of someone else, patience in all situations, also with regard to the issues of life and death. When someone understands the Dhamma he will see the significance of patience, patience to be diligent in the study of the Dhamma, to listen to the Dhamma and to investigate and consider it. We should study and practise the Dhamma with sincerity, sincerity which can lead to becoming the perfection of truthfulness.” Metta, Sarah ====== --- nina van gorkom wrote: > Perfections, Ch 7, Patience, no 27 > > We read further on in the Commentary: > > Someone may be offended by another person who is overcome by anger, who > commits a wrong but does not even apologize. However, the person who is > wronged may cause the other and himself to be reconciled and united in > friendship by speaking the following words, 3You should come, you should > learn the recitation, listen to the explanations (of the Dhamma), and be > diligent in mental development. What is the reason that you have become > estranged?2 This is his view, it is his nature to be full of > loving-kindness. He is superior, he can be considered as someone who > fulfills a weighty task, because he undertakes the task of friendship. > The Bodhisatta exhorted in that way the recluse who was his father. From > then on the recluse who was his father trained himself and devoted > himself > to ascetical practices. > > However, that was only in his past life, and in his present life he > acted as > he used to act. When his son pushed him with his head in his back he > became > angry and impatient. He turned back and started anew from the same point > and > walked from there on again so that they arrived in the Jeta Grove when > it > was already dark. > This shows us that nobody can control dhammas, no matter whether they > are > akusala or kusala. Sometimes there are conditions for the arising of > many > kusala dhammas. At other times there are conditions for the arising of > akusala which has not yet been eradicated. During one lifespan someone > may > have tried to train himself to eliminate defilements, but if defilements > have not been completely eradicated, there are still latent tendencies > like > germs which can be the condition for their arising. ==================================== 19884 From: Sarah Date: Tue Feb 25, 2003 6:18am Subject: Re: [dsg] Way 54, Comm, Clear Comprehension 1 Hi Larry & Nina, --- LBIDD@w... wrote: > "The Way of Mindfulness" by Soma Thera, Commentary, The Section on the > Four Kinds of Clear Comprehension, 1. Clear comprehension in going > forwards and backwards, p. 69 > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/misc/wayof.html > > Men of good family, desirous of self-improvement, having become homeless > ones in the Dispensation of the Buddha, ..... Larry, even if I seldom comment on the extracts, I follow them all and appreciate any points you or others raise. Relating to this line, the following sub-commentary notes were interesting: ..... > [Tika] "Desirous of self-improvement" (atta kamati) -- (Those bhikkhus) > wishing for personal good and well-being (attano hita sukhamicchanta) -- > those wishing for (delighting in, intent on) the Dhamma is the true > meaning [dhammacchandavantoti attho] -- by reason of the fact that the > Dhamma is truly good and well-being [dhammo hi hitam sukhañca > tannimittakam]. Or to the wise the Dhamma is the self owing to the > absence of difference (of the Dhamma) from the self, and (because the > Dhamma is contained in the self) owing to the (Dhamma's) state of being > included in the living being [atha va viññanam attato nibbisesatta > attabhava pariyapannatta ca dhammo atta nama]. They (the bhikkhus who > have genuinely renounced, in the Dispensation of the Buddha) desire, > wish for, that (tam kamenti icchanti].[21] ..... I understand this to mean that ‘desirous of self-improvement’(atta kamati) is synonymous in effect with appreciating or delighting (in a wholesome sense) in dhamma (dhammacchandavantoti attho), knowing the dhamma to be good and consequently have followed the homeless life of the bhikkhu. It reminded me that the only real ‘comfort’ is in the appreciation of what is good and right . Self is used conventionally and in fact there are only dhammas?? ‘Self-improvement’ does not refer to thinking about or clinging to self in anyway. I’d be glad to hear any further breakdown of the Pali terms, Nina, as I find some of the phrases in the translation confusing and try to just look at the Pali, but I miss quite a lot (and haven’t pulled out dictionaries;-)). I’d also be glad to hear any other comments. Metta, Sarah ==== 19885 From: nidive Date: Tue Feb 25, 2003 7:27am Subject: Re: Calm and Insight.special practice? Hi Nina, > N: But lobha, dosa, etc. do not > hinder , they can be objects of insight. You have doubts about this. > I looked up B. Hennepola: He accepts sukkhavipassaka, but still wants to > insert a special practice, suppressing the hindrances and concentrating on > the three characteristics, stressing a momentary concentration, having the > same function as the basic jhana of the serenity vehicle. He mixes samatha > and vipassana, but they are two distinct practices. He makes vipassana into > a kind of samatha practice. I quote from Venerable Henepola in "A Critical Analysis of the Jhanas" Page 172-173: <<------------------------------------------------------- Commenting on Buddhaghosa's remarks that sometimes the path to purification is taught by insight alone, the Maha Tika points out that this remark is meant to exclude, not all concentration, but only "that concentration with distinction," i.e. access and absorption. It then says: "Taking this stanza [Dhp. v. 277] as the teaching for one whose vehicle is insight does not imply that there is no concentration; for no insight comes about without momentary concentration." A short while later the Maha Tika again identifies momentary concentration with the type of concentration appropriate to one whose vehicle is insight: ... supramundane... concentration and insight are impossible without mundane concentration and insight to precede them; for without the access and absorption concentration in one whose vehicle is serenity, or without the momentary concentration in one whose vehicle is insight, and without the Gateways to Liberation...., the supramundane can never in either case be reached. The commentary to the Majjhima Nikaya, in a passage quoted fully above, states that "someone contemplates with insight the five aggregates of clinging as impermanent, etc. without having produced the aforesaid kinds of serenity." Its subcommentary, clarifying this statement, explains: "The qualification 'without having serenity' is meant to exclude access concentration, not momentary concentration, for no insight is possible without momentary concentration." ------------------------------------------------------->> Questions: (1) Is the Maha Tika part of the Theravadic commentary? How highly regarded is it? (2) How highly regarded is the subcommentary to the commentary to the Majjhima Nikaya? I don't have access to these commentaries. So I am not in a position to say whether Venerable Henepola had misunderstood or misquoted them. Perhaps you can look up references to momentary concentration in these commentaries? In any case, Venerable Henepola also said in Page 171: <<------------------------------------------------------- Momentary concentration arises in the samathayanika yogin simultaneously with his post-jhanic attainment of insight, but for the vipassanayanika it develops naturally and spontaneously in the course of his insight practice without his having to fix the mind upon a single exclusive object. ------------------------------------------------------->> Regards, NEO Swee Boon 19886 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Tue Feb 25, 2003 8:36am Subject: RE: [dsg] Janice's letter (long posts with Jataka tale) Dear Sarah, > -----Original Message----- > From: Sarah [mailto:sarahdhhk@y...] > last Gotama Buddha. According to this detail, he > was 18 hattha or cubits > in height. Now it seems that one hattha is the Unit conversion: http://ucsu.colorado.edu/~hoodcr/converters/distance.html I need to look it up, Sarah, but a hattha Thai means 1 hand. That would make 18 hattha to be about 6 feet, whereas 18 cubits would make 27 feet! If the Buddha is 20 feet high, I would suspect there would be more mentioning about this, unless people at the time is about the same height. Since neither seems to be the case, this makes me quite suspicious ;-) kom 19887 From: nidive Date: Tue Feb 25, 2003 9:25am Subject: Re: Comfort Hi Christine, > But this stuff about the last thought determining the next > rebirth does. Somehow most things in Buddhism (once you get used to > them) seem to follow a certain logic, a predictable lawfulness, even > have a certain justice. But the cuti-citta ... there doesn't seem to > be logic, lawfulness or justice - just blind chance. One wonders why > consequences could not be closer to the initiating action. Or why > there isn't a Statute of Limitations... Isn't it scary that in the next life, we can be dogs, pigs, laboratory rats, mosquitoes, horses, elephants, cats, lions, tigers, etc...? I find it scary when I reflect on this matter. The human state is hard to obtain, much less the deva state. We must all strive to achieve Sotapanna Enlightenment in this lifetime. It's now or probably never (may be until the appearance of a million more Buddhas could there be a "second" chance at Nibbana). This cuti-citta is definitely not cute. If one constantly give thoughts to the notion that Sotapanna Enlightenment cannot be achieved in this lifetime, he/she is already defeated. It can be done in this lifetime. The Buddha always encouraged that it should be done in this lifetime. He never taught us to accumulate panna over several lifetimes. I don't think he taught that. I think the notion of accumulating panna over several lifetimes is the worst thing that can be taught to anyone. It's almost a lie. You either get it RIGHT this lifetime or probably never (or wait for a very, very, very long time for another chance). ----------------------------------------------------- "Monks, suppose that this great earth were totally covered with water, and a man were to toss a yoke with a single hole there. A wind from the east would push it west, a wind from the west would push it east. A wind from the north would push it south, a wind from the south would push it north. And suppose a blind sea-turtle were there. It would come to the surface once every one hundred years. Now what do you think: would that blind sea-turtle, coming to the surface once every one hundred years, stick his neck into the yoke with a single hole?" "It would be a sheer coincidence, lord, that the blind sea-turtle, coming to the surface once every one hundred years, would stick his neck into the yoke with a single hole." "It's likewise a sheer coincidence that one obtains the human state. It's likewise a sheer coincidence that a Tathagata, worthy & rightly self-awakened, arises in the world. It's likewise a sheer coincidence that a doctrine & discipline expounded by a Tathagata appears in the world. Now, this human state has been obtained. A Tathagata, worthy & rightly self-awakened, has arisen in the world. A doctrine & discipline expounded by a Tathagata appears in the world. "Therefore your duty is the contemplation: 'This is stress... This is the origination of stress... This is the cessation of stress... This is the path of practice leading to the cessation of stress.'" http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn56-048.html ----------------------------------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------- "In many a disquisition could I, monks, talk a talk about animal birth, but it is not easy to describe in full, monks, so many are the anguishes of animal birth. Monks, it is like a man who might throw a yoke with one hole into the sea. An easterly wind might take it westwards, a westerly wind might take it eastwards, a northerly wind might take it southwards, a southerly wind might take it northwards. There might be a blind turtle there who came to the surface once in a hundred years. What do you think, monks? Could that blind turtle push his neck through that one hole in the yoke?" "If at all, revered sir, then only once in a very long while." "Sooner or later, monks, could the blind turtle push his neck through the one hole in the yoke; more difficult than that, do I say, monks, is human status once again for the fool who has gone to the Downfall. What is the cause of that? Monks, there is no dhammafaring there, no even-faring, no doing of what is skilled, no doing of what is good. Monks, there is devouring of one another there and feeding on the weak. Monks, if some time or other once in a very long while that fool came to human status (again), he would be born into those families that are low: a family of low caste or a family of hunters or a family of bamboo-plaiters or a family of cartwrights or a family of refuse-scavengers, in such a family as is needy, without enough to drink or to eat, where a covering for the back is with difficulty obtained. Moreover, he would be ill-favoured, ugly, dwarfish, sickly, blind or deformed or lame or paralysed; he would be unable to get food, drink, clothes, vehicles, garlands, scents and perfumes, bed, dwelling and lights; he would fare wrongly in body, wrongly in speech, wrongly in thought. Because he had fared wrongly in body, speech and thought, at the breaking up of the body after dying he would arise in the sorrowful ways, a bad bourn, the Downfall, Niraya Hell… ...This, monks, is the fool's condition, completed in its entirety..." -- ADL - The First Citta in Life ----------------------------------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------- Incalculable is the beginning, monks, of this faring on. The earliest point is not revealed of the running on, faring on of beings, cloaked in ignorance, tied by craving... The bones of one single person, monks, running on, faring on for an aeon would be a cairn, a pile, a heap as great as Mount Vepulla, were there a collector of those bones and the collection were not destroyed. How is this? Incalculable is the beginning, monks, of this faring on. The earliest point is not revealed of the running on, faring on of beings, cloaked in ignorance, tied by craving... Thus spoke the Exalted One. After the Wellfarer had said this, he spoke further: The pile of bones (of all the bodies of) one man Who has alone one aeon lived, Were heaped a mountain high—so said the mighty seer— Yes, reckoned high as Vipula To north of Vulture's Peak, crag-fort of Magadha. When he with perfect insight sees The Ariyan Truths:—what dukkha is and how it comes And how it may be overpassed, The Ariyan Eightfold Path, the way all ill to abate— Seven times at most reborn, a man Yet running on, through breaking every fetter down, Endmaker does become of dukkha. -- ADL - The First Citta in Life ----------------------------------------------------- Having pondered well on the above, do you understand why the Buddha said: 10. "'Have I gained superhuman faculties? Have I gained that higher wisdom so that when I am questioned (on this point) by fellow-monks at the last moment (when death is approaching) I will have no occasion to be depressed and downcast?' This must be reflected upon again and again by one who has gone forth. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/misc/protection.html#s1 Even though we have not gone forth, yet we must also reflect on this matter again and again as though we had gone forth. The Buddha singled it out as one of the ten essentials to be reflected again and again. Why? Because the next life is uncertain for a worldling. If he/she goes to the animal realm, there is no dhamma-faring there. It would be extremely hard to continue the dhamma-faring if he/she were to regain human status after a long time. It is said that there are more beings reborn in Hell, Ghost and Animal realms than there are beings reborn in Human and Heavenly realms. Isn't that scary? Regards, NEO Swee Boon 19888 From: christine_forsyth Date: Tue Feb 25, 2003 1:07pm Subject: PERFECTIONS Ch. 1 - 7 Dear Group, For those following Nina's series of translations of K. Sujins' "Perfections", I have grouped the links for easier reference, particularly for those members who have joined part way through. PERFECTIONS Ch. 1 + Ch. 2(Generosity) Ch. 3 (Morality) Ch. 4 (Renunciation) Ch. 5 (Wisdom) http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/16600 **Please note that there is one error in the above. Ch. 3 No. 8 should be post no. 14644 NOT 14646** Below are the links to Nina's translations of K. Sujin's Ch. 6 Perfection of Energy, and Ch. 7 Perfection of Patience. Please let me know if you detect any errors in the links. metta, Christine "The Perfection of Energy" 16005 Ch. 6 No. 1 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/16005 16140 Ch. 6 No. 2 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/16140 16180 Ch. 6 No. 3 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/16180 16218 Ch. 6 No. 4 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/16218 16257 Ch. 6 No. 5 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/16257 16290 Ch. 6 No. 6 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/16290 16335 Ch. 6 No. 7 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/16335 16396 Ch. 6 No. 8 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/16396 16420 Ch. 6 No. 9 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/16420 16459 Ch. 6 No. 10 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/16459 16502 Ch. 6 No. 11 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/16459 16580 Ch. 6 No. 12 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/16580 "The Perfection of Patience" 17721 Ch. 7 No. 1 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/17721 17832 Ch. 7 No 2 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/17832 17890 Ch. 7 No 3 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/17890 17929 Ch. 7 No 4 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/17929 18126 Ch. 7 No 5 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/18126 18160 Ch. 7 No 6 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/18160 18240 Ch. 7 No 7 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/18240 18287 Ch. 7 No 8 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/18287 18410 Ch. 7 No 9 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/18410 18556 Ch. 7 No 10 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/18556 18609 Ch. 7 No 11 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/18609 18714 Ch. 7 No 12 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/18714 18774 Ch. 7 No 13 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/18774 18835 Ch. 7 No 14 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/18835 18917 Ch. 7 No 15 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/18917 18967 Ch. 7 No 16 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/18967 19023 Ch. 7 No 17 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/19023 19146 Ch. 7 No 18 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/19146 19219 Ch. 7 No 19 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/19219 19262 Ch. 7 No 20 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/19262 19365 Ch. 7 No 21 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/19365 19420 Ch. 7 No 22 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/19420 19458 Ch. 7 No 23 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/19458 19562 Ch. 7 No 24 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/19562 19676 Ch. 7 No 25 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/19676 19731 Ch. 7 No 26 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/19731 19787 Ch. 7 No 27 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/19787 19889 From: Star Kid Date: Tue Feb 25, 2003 2:10pm Subject: Nice to meet you~* Dear Kom! Hi! My name is Joanne Lam. I was born in Hong Kong but I'm a Canadian. I'm 12 years old studying in Hong Kong International School(Grade 7). I have been living in Hong Kong for the past 12 years. My interests are basketball, computer, internet and reading. What are your interests? This is my first time writing to you, hope you dont mind. Do you mind introducing yourself? Well, I dont know much about Buddhism so I hope you could teach me more! I have just read your letter to Janice *19646*, Mindfulness is really interesting! I don't think I am Mindfulness but if I can, I would try to be Mindfulness. What do Buddhists' believe in? Do they believe in 1 God or many Gods? Well, thats all I want to ask. Reply back soon! -Joanne- (JoJo-nickname) 19890 From: Star Kid Date: Tue Feb 25, 2003 2:15pm Subject: Buddhism Hey Everybody: Sorry for not writing for so long. I have been quite busy lately, so I didn't have time to write letters. There are also a few questions I would like to ask you: 1. When did the Buddha die? 2. When was the Buddha born? 3. What is the Buddha's name? 4. Is Buddhism a philosophy, or is it a religion? 5. Do you go to the temple to praise the Buddha, just like we do in Christianity? 6. Is there anything you feel is unique or special about Buddhism? 7. Some people who believe in Buddhism don't eat meat. Do you eat meat? 8. Why don't some people who believe in Buddhism eat meat? 9. Are there special festivals of Buddism, such as Christmas of Christianity? 10. How many Buddhas are there? 11. Is (Are) Buddha(s) God(s)? 12. Why do you believe in Buddhism? 13. Do you have any opinions or comments related to Buddhism? I seem to ask you many questions, and I must apologise for that. If you have any questions related to Christianity, please tell me. I'll try to answer them as well as I can. Yours sincerely, Philip Chui 19891 From: Sarah Date: Tue Feb 25, 2003 3:28pm Subject: Height of the Buddha (was: Janice's letter (long posts with Jataka tale) Hi Kom, Sometimes children raise interesting and difficult questions. I’m sure we all greatly appreciate the patient replies that you, James, Chris, Eddie and others give. I had never considered this question about heights. Back to the measurements: -- Kom Tukovinit wrote: > Dear Sarah, > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Sarah [mailto:sarahdhhk@y...] > > last Gotama Buddha. According to this detail, he > > was 18 hattha or cubits > > in height. Now it seems that one hattha is the > > Unit conversion: > > http://ucsu.colorado.edu/~hoodcr/converters/distance.html > > I need to look it up, Sarah, but a hattha Thai means 1 hand. > That would make 18 hattha to be about 6 feet, whereas 18 > cubits would make 27 feet! ..... Let me just add a couple more quotes from I.B.Horner: “In regard to the measures given for the height or tallness of the Buddhas, two words are used, apparently interchangeabley: hattha and ratana. The former can be translated as cubit, but as there is no appropriate translation of ratana, I leave the word in the Pali. . In spite of some vagueness as to the linear measure intended by these two terms, both may reasonably be taken as that from the elbow to the tip of the extended middle finger.” She gives a reference to her introduction to the “Book of Discipline”, the PTS transl of the Vinaya Pitaka. Here it says: “We find hattha defined in the Old Commentary (Vin.iii.121, iv 221) as “from the elbow as far as the tip of the nail,” which means that hattha, taken as a measure of length, would comprise the hand together with the forearm (cf VA 533). Even so, there is yet ome vagueness, for the tips of the nails are not all the same distance from the elbow. ....Rhys Davids however suggested that “to the end of the little finger only is meant”, apparently on the grounds that because the span, vidatthi, is the basis of computation for the ratana, two vidatthi making one ratana, and because vidatthi is “the name for the ordinary span to the end of the fourth or little finger” from the end of the thumb, therefore the hattha, which is equivalent to the ratana measure, would be from the elbow as far as the nail of the little finger. this provides a straight line for measurement, and the distance is about fifteen inches...................The “staff” in Sekhiya 58 (Vin iv 200), that had to measue “four hands” would be about five feet in length. ..... If Horner and Rhys Davids are wrong, it would be most surprising if no one had pointed this out. I haven’t checked any of the references here or from the Rhys Davids Pali-Eng dict. ..... > If the Buddha is 20 feet high, I would suspect there would > be more mentioning about this, unless people at the time is > about the same height. Since neither seems to be the case, > this makes me quite suspicious ;-) ..... I know. To be precise, by Horner’s definition, it would make the Buddha 22.5 feet high. I also understand the hieight and length of life to be ‘in line’ with the times. The tallest of previous Buddhas was Sumana Buddha at 90 hattha = 112.5 feet!! but then, many of the earlier buddhas recorded here (Bv) had a lifespan of 100,000 years, the normal length of life at the time. Horner gives this other comment: “Since, in the canonical and commentarial accounts of the buddhas these tremendous periods of time are involved, incalculable by computation nd beyond all ways of reckoning, it would seem only appropriate that the buddhas themselves, besides being of giant stature, should live, as did their contemporaries, for hundreds and thousands of years. Out of the total length of their life-span the number of years they spent leading the household life as Bodhisattas seems in all but the two cases of Dhammadasin and Tissa to bear some ‘mathematical’ relation to this total length.” Even though I’d seen these figures, I’d never made the calculation before and am also pretty surprised. I’ll be glad to hear what you or anyone else comes up with or if anyone else has any leads or a chance to check any refs. I’m thinking of the giant Buddha statues in Polunnaruwa. Perhaps they were meant to be realistic and not giant statues...??? I’m quite out of my depth here and it leads to many other questions. Certainly if this is correct, the Buddha and his contemporaries would not have fitted into our tiny Hong Kong apartments;-) Metta, Sarah p.s In Cantonese, one word, sau, means both hand and arm - one just knows by context which is meant. The dict also gives hand, forearm for hattha, but Horner is very definite about this context. ====== 19892 From: Date: Tue Feb 25, 2003 3:00pm Subject: Way 55, Comm, Clear Comprehension 1 "The Way of Mindfulness" by Soma Thera, Commentary, The Section on the Four Kinds of Clear Comprehension, 1. Clear Comprehension in going forwards and backwards, p. 71 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/misc/wayof.html It is said that this elder dwelt for nineteen years fulfilling the observance of "carrying forth and carrying back." Plowmen, sowers, threshers of grain and other people having seen the elder go in this manner, said: "This elder goes having halted again and again. Why does he do so? Has he got confused about the way or has he forgotten something?" The elder by just doing the recluse's duty, with mind yoked to the thought of meditation, without giving heed to the talk of the people, attained Arahantship within twenty years. On the very day be became an Arahant, a deva who was living at the end of the elder's walking path, stood emitting a radiance that came from the fingers of the deva. The Four Regents of the Earth, Sakka the deva-king and Brahma Sahampati came to serve the elder. Maha Tissa the forest-dweller, also an elder, saw that radiance and inquired of the arahant the next day: "Last night, there was a radiance about your reverence; what was that?" Diverting the talk, the arahant said: "Radiance is that of light, of gem and the like." But on being pressed repeatedly with the words: "You are concealing," he acknowledged, saying, "Yes" and informed Tissa of his attainment. Like the elder Maha Naga of the Black Creeper Pavilion. He, it is said, when fulfilling the observance of carrying forth and back the subject of meditation, resolved upon keeping to only the postures of standing and of walking for seven years, with the thought: "I will honor the Blessed One's great struggle." And after fulfilling for sixteen years again the observance of carrying forth and carrying back the subject of meditation, he attained Arahantship. This is said of him: He (when going out for alms to the village) raises his foot only with mind yoked to the subject of meditation. If he raises with mind not yoked thus, he turns back again. After standing at such a distance from the village as would raise (in the mind of one looking from the village) the doubt: "Is it indeed a cow or a recluse?" and robing himself, he fills his mouth with a draught of water from the water-carrier slung over the shoulder and hanging under the armpit, having washed the bowl with water from the same source. For what reason does he fill his mouth so? He does it thinking: "Let there be no distraction of the mind even by the uttering of the words: 'May you live long!' to people coming to worship me or give me alms." But when he is asked the question, "Reverend Sir, which stage of the half-month is today?" concerning the date, or when he is questioned about the number of monks, he answers, after swallowing the water. If there is no questioning about the day and so forth, he having spat out the water, at the village gate, at the time of leaving, goes. 19893 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Tue Feb 25, 2003 4:10pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Height of the Buddha (was: Janice's letter (long posts with Jataka tale) Dear Sarah, > -----Original Message----- > From: Sarah [mailto:sarahdhhk@y...] > > Hi Kom, > > Sometimes children raise interesting and difficult questions. I’m sure we > all greatly appreciate the patient replies that you, James, Chris, Eddie > and others give. I had never considered this question about heights. No "kid"ding ... :-) > > Back to the measurements: ... Thanks for the clarifications and references. Now, I have plenty of materials to look up, and to ask.... > ..... > I know. To be precise, by Horner’s definition, it would make the Buddha > 22.5 feet high. I also understand the hieight and length of life to be ‘in > line’ with the times. So do you think people in India in the Buddha's age (2500 yrs ago) were 20 feet tall? Do you think this is general or exceptional? We have exceptionally gigantic people too: try that Chinese basketball guy (Yao Ming with the Houston Rockets) in the US. All archeological evidence (bones, remains, Chinese terra-cotta, etc.) seem to all point to present-sized people, though. > > The tallest of previous Buddhas was Sumana Buddha at 90 hattha = 112.5 > feet!! but then, many of the earlier buddhas recorded here (Bv) had a > lifespan of 100,000 years, the normal length of life at the time. But those are supposed to live for 10 thousands of years!!! If someone lives that long, I wouldn't be surprise if they are that big.. > Even though I’d seen these figures, I’d never made the calculation before > and am also pretty surprised. I’ll be glad to hear what you or anyone else > comes up with or if anyone else has any leads or a chance to check any > refs. I’m thinking of the giant Buddha statues in Polunnaruwa. Perhaps > they were meant to be realistic and not giant statues...??? That would make literal also why V. Sariputta & V. Maha-mogallana are always in smaller images, even when they are right next to the Buddha, assuming that the Buddha's size is larger than the 2 V, of course. > Certainly if this > is correct, the Buddha and his contemporaries would not have fitted into > our tiny Hong Kong apartments;-) Yes, you wouldn't be able to invite him for a meal ;-). OK. So much for my disbelief. I will search to see if there are any more references I can find. Otherwise, I will ask some more too. kom 19894 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Tue Feb 25, 2003 10:05pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: aniccata Howard --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Nina (and Htoo) - > > >Aniccata is one of four Lakkhana-rupas.Lakkhana is just a > > >characteristic.So,in real sense it is not a real rupa.It is not > > >influenced by Kamma,Citta,Utu and Ahara because it is just a > > >characteristic. > > > > > > > > ============================ > In fact, it's just a concept, isn't it? We never directly > observe > impermanence. We observe dhammas, and then we observe that they are > no longer > around. We CALL that being-present-at-one-time and > not-being-present-at-a-later-time "impermanence". Likewise, > dependent arising > is concept-only. There occur dependently arisen dhammas, but > dependent > origination is concept-only. These are, of course, well grounded > concepts, > not imaginary, and, in fact, of supreme importance, but they are > concepts, > nonetheless. In abhidhamma, everything is either paramattha dhamma > or > pa~n~natta. Impermanence and paticcasamupada are pa~n~natti. (All > the more > reason to avoid speaking of pa~n~natti as nonexistent, I'd say.) I'm not sure that it's correct to say that in abhidhamma everything is either parmattha dhamma or pannatti. The characteristics of impermanence, unsatisfactoriness and not-self that are said to pertain to all conditioned dhammas are not in themselves dhammas, but neither are they regarded by the abhidhamma as concepts. They are capable of being observed by highly developed direct knowledge; they are not mere creations of the mind. You say: " We never directly observe > impermanence. We observe dhammas, and then we observe that they are > no longer > around. We CALL that being-present-at-one-time and > not-being-present-at-a-later-time "impermanence"." I agree, this is not the direct knowledge of impermanence (but rather a kind of 'knowledge by deduction'). But the fact that this is how it is for us does not mean that impermanence cannot be known by direct experience if panna has been sufficiently developed. Likewise the relationships that hold between various dhammas are not mere concepts. As with the 3 characteristics, they can be known by highly developed panna. That's as I understand the abhidhamma, anyway. > To awaken to the truth of impermanence is actually to lose > the belief > in permanence and, ultimately, the sense of permanence with regard > to > conditioned dhammas. To awaken to the truth of not-self, is to lose > the > belief in (and ultimately the sense of) a core to be found in the > "person" or > in any dhamma, to lose the tendency towards reification. At least > this is how > I see the matter. The sense of permanence and belief in a core of which you speak are aspects of wrong view. To my understanding, wrong view can only be eradicated by the development of insight (and not, for example, by the kind of observation and deduction that we discussed above). Jon 19895 From: buddhatrue Date: Tue Feb 25, 2003 10:12pm Subject: Re: I want to learn more about the eight fold path --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Star Kid wrote: > Dear James, > > Thank you for you letter and for your story that you > wrote about how you got into Buddhism. Well, I'm not a > Christian and I'm Buddhist. Did I tell you that I'm > Thai? If not then there you are! Where in America are > you from? > > I'm sorry to hear about your brother and sister, I > think that your brother was on drugs because of his > friends. Did your friends ever tell you to try > illegal drugging? How old were your siblings when they > past away? > > When I was younger, I wanted to be a Christian because > all my friends were (peer pressure) but later on, I > realized that just because all my friends > were Christian doesn't mean that I should be Christian > too. There is just one problem which is that I think > my family is too religious....but I think being > Buddhist is kind of cool. > > Do you know about the eight fold path? I had to learn > a bit about it last year and I thought it was pretty > interesting becasue in the eight fold path it shows > the different truths about being alive. Can you tell > me a bit more because I don't think I got enough > infomation. > > Thx ;) BYE! > From > Jan Tanyatip Cheravanont Hi Star Kid Jan! Yes, you are right; my brother was using drugs because of his friends. He hung around with the wrong crowd, who liked to get high, and it eventually killed him. He died when he was 22. He had just gotten married to a woman who was also a drug user. That is a very sad way to be. The worse thing about that is that they didn't think they were doing anything wrong. Drugs mess up your mind so that you can't see how harmful they are. I think my brother was probably reborn as an animal because the drugs had made his mind so much like an animals' for many years. Eventually he will be a human again, but he has a lot of damage to clean up and repair. No, I have never had friends who tried to get me to take illegal drugs. I don't have friends like that. I have always been scared of illegal drugs, because of seeing what they did to my brother, so I have never even tried drugs. Not even once. And that is unusual for me because I am an adventurous type person who tries almost anything once…but never illegal drugs. They are very dangerous. Okay, you want to know more about the eightfold path. Well, this discussion about using drugs relates very specifically to the eightfold path. Everything that happens in our life is because of conditions. My brother started to use drugs because he was around other people who used drugs. He didn't realize they were bad because the people around him didn't say they were bad. His mind wasn't clear because the drugs messed up his ability to think. So, let's break this down into three, significant areas: 1. View: My brother believed that it was okay to use drugs. 2. Lifestyle: My brother hung out with other people who used drugs. 3. Mind: My brother's mind couldn't think properly because of the drugs. Consequence: My brother lived a very unhappy life, died young, and was probably reborn as an animal. Now, the Buddha didn't want this to happen to people so he told them the proper way to live, and it also has to do with these three areas. He called it the eightfold path, but it is easier to remember if categorized in these three ways: I.View a.Right View b.Right Intentions II.Lifestyle a.Right Speech b.Right Action c.Right Livelihood III.Mind a.Right Effort b.Right Mindfulness c.Right Concentration My brother did the opposite of these things. Do you see how easy it is for people to do the wrong things if you don't have the right view, lifestyle, and mind? It is very easy. It is much more difficult to do the right things. Jan, right now you are doing all the right things! You are learning and asking about life so that you will have the right view. You are surrounding yourself with good people who won't tell you to do bad things. And you are in school developing your mind, paying attention to your studies, and concentrating on your life. There may come a time when you will want to do formal meditation, and until that time comes, you are doing everything you are supposed to be doing! You should be very proud of yourself! I hope your teacher, parents, and friends are very proud of you…I am very proud of you! Keep up the good work! Love, James 19896 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Tue Feb 25, 2003 10:33pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Nice to meet you~* Hi JoJo (Hi Joanne!), > -----Original Message----- > From: Star Kid [mailto:starkidsclub@y...] > > Hi! My name is Joanne Lam. I was born in > Hong Kong but I'm a Canadian. Mine is Kom Tukovinit - this is a Thai name, but my parents are ethnic Chinese (born in Thailand), and I live in the U.S. So, do you think I am Thai, Chinese, or American? Guess what? I am whoever I am - Thai, Chinese, and American are just labels, used to quickly tell a person from another. Suppose that I feel happy at the moment. There is this happiness, but the happiness is not Thai, Chinese, or American: it is just the feeling of happiness. When I am sad, there is this sadness, but sadness too is not Thai, not Chinese, and not American. You see, what I have are none of those things: what I have is this body, this feeling, this memory, ..., and this mind, and they are all changing very rapidly. I feel happy one moment that I am writing to you, and then the next moment I feel stomach pain. Happy feeling doesn't last. I can't really say I am a happy person, because I am not happy all the time... > I'm 12 years old > studying in Hong Kong International School(Grade > 7). I have been living in Hong Kong for the past 12 > years. Have you ever visited Canada? Do you have lots of relatives there? I know there are many people who used to live in Hong Kong, but now live in Canada. One of my best friends is named Lam too, and he is originally from Hong Kong. > My interests are basketball, computer, internet > and reading. What are your interests? This is my first > time writing to you, hope you dont mind. Do you mind > introducing yourself? Ah, you sound like you have lots of fun time. I don't play any sports, but I do like computers, internet, and reading too. I also hike sometimes. > Well, I dont know much about Buddhism so I > hope you could teach me more! You have already learned some from above! Buddhism is really about learning about ourselves, who we really are. By listening to the Buddha's teachings, by considering wisely, and by really understand who we really are, we are closer to knowing more about the Buddha and what he teaches, because he is one who truly knows (and therefore can teach us) what life is. > I have just read your > letter to Janice *19646*, Mindfulness is really > interesting! I don't think I am Mindfulness but if I > can, I would try to be Mindfulness. Mindfulness is very helpful. You actually don't have to even try to be mindful. When you are kind to other people, you are already mindful! When you don't kill, don't lie, don't swear, and don't say things to separate people, even if you might feel like doing it, you are already mindful. The more we learn about what mindfulness is, how useful it is, and why it is not good to not be mindful, then we are more likely to be mindful. But even that, being who we are, sometimes we are not mindful anyway. Very few people (if there is any nowadays) is mindful all the time! > What do Buddhists' believe in? The Buddhists believe / understand kamma: good cause brings good results, and bad cause brings bad results. They believe that there is goodness in some people, like our parents, our teachers, and the Buddha. They believe that there are people (like the Buddha) who are wiser than ourselves, and who can teach us to know ourselves more. > Do they > believe in 1 God or many Gods? The Buddhists don't believe there is any being that lives forever. Any being who come to be must one day die, regardless of how long they live, although the Buddha taught about many beings that live for a very lonnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnng time. Well, you don't have to believe me about this. Look around you, do you know anyone who would live forever? I haven't met one yet. kom 19897 From: Sarah Date: Wed Feb 26, 2003 4:22am Subject: Re: [dsg] PERFECTIONS Ch. 1 - 7 Hi Christine, wrote: > Dear Group, > > For those following Nina's series of translations of K. > Sujins' "Perfections", I have grouped the links for easier reference, ..... This is very helpful and a very tidy compilation. I’m sure that when the complete translation is finished it’ll be added to various websites too. Most of the quotes in the series are from the Cariya Pitaka (Basket of Conduct) and this reminded me of your other queery: wrote: > > The info came out of an article by Dhammavuddho Thera, > called "Liberation - the relevance of the Sutta-Vinaya" > We were having a discussion about a post I had seen elsewhere that > mentioned those stories of the Buddha's past lives that I find > unpalatable (where he gives away people - well, Yasodhara, multiple > times to a variety of fates actually). It was suggested that maybe > they came from a source that it wasn't necessary to accept > as 'gospel'. The source quoted was Pubacariya of the Venerable > Yasodhara Theri, in the Suttanta Pitaka, vol. 25 Khuddaka Nikaya Part > II, Apadana Part II, Buddhavamsa-Cariya Pitaka. And, so, my friend > gave me the info in the previous post. And if the good monk is > correct, that only the Dhammapada, Sutta Nipata, Theragatha, > Therigatha, Itivuttaka and Udana are reliable, then maybe I have a > loophole? ..... Let me add a few of my own comments in point form. As you know I’m not a historian, a scholar or a Pali expert, so pls take them as just a few musings only: 1. I looked rather briefly at the article you posted. Many writers insist on Dhamma-Vinaya as referring just to the Suttas and Vinaya in spite of what I read in the early commentaries (and quoted at length) which suggest the term refers to the entire Tipitaka. The only reference in support (I think) that is given in the article is to ‘Sutta’ in AN,Bk of 4s,180. The footnote in the PTS suggests that Comy reads Sutta= Suttanta-Abhidhamma-Pitakanai. The translator doesn’t agree, but I find the comy notes of most value. I’d be interested to see it in full. 2. If one rejects a Jataka tale, such as the Vessantara tale, one also rejects the Cariyapitaka (which contains the same tale in verse), various commentaries which refer to it, the King Milinda stories, the Visuddhimagga and all later commentaries and so on. Where are the contradictions? It’s just a matter of time before the other texts above are discarded as well;-) Also, some of the Jataka tales can be found elsewhere in the Pitakas and some of the old carvings in India, with titles of some Jatakas, date back to the 3rd century BC. We know the verses pre-date the commentaries, but I believe these were merely a compilation of materials handed down from the earliest times by word of mouth and Singhalese manuscripts. I think Cowell makes this point in his preface to the translation. 3. Discarding what doesn’t appeal.....In the article quoted above it is suggested that ‘despite having perfect virtue, Ariyas can still have minor transgressions of the precepts’ and goes on to quote the example of Sarakani. Isn’t it more important to question our limited understanding, and read the texts more deeply, rather than to reject that which does not support our views? There are other examples of this, such as the comments about the commentaries. . 4. Following on from the last point about the texts and commentaries in the reject pile, cross-referencing accounts mostly seems very consistent to me. The Vessantara Jataka was supposedly given at the end of the recital of the Buddhavamsa (Bv -Chronicle of the Buddhas) by the Buddha to Sariputta. The Buddhavamsa, referred to in the quote above, was another late inclusion like the Cariya-Pitaka into the Khuddaka Nikaya. I’ve been reading this recently. The Buddhas, whose details the Buddhavamsa records, are also mentioned in Vin, MN, SN and various commentaries. There are also sculptures dating back to 3rd or 2nd century BC referring to these Buddhas. As I understand, it has always been accepted as the word of the Buddha, hence the range of texts that has developed from it. I don’t know why it wasn’t included in the Khuddaka Nikaya in the early days, though I might speculate. 5. The Buddhavamsa also refers to the perfections enumerated in detail in the Cariyapitaka. Dana is always given first. The ultimate perfection is to give away one’s life after wife, children, limbs or eyes etc. The five ‘sacrifices’ are incumbent on all Bodhisattas: wealth, own heads/eyes or limbs, own life, dear child(ren), loved wife. 6. In the comy to the Buddhavamsa (Clarifier of Sweet Meaning 298) under the regulation for all Buddhas which I referred to recently, it also gives the a) telling of a Jataka story when a need had arisen and b) speaking the ‘Chronicle of Buddhas’ in a gathering of relations. Of course, this will be rejected by those who reject Buddhavamsa;-) 8. Horner writes in her preface to the above comy translation: “Always there were detractors, always there were and still are ‘improvers’ ready with their own notions. Through enemies and friends alike deleterious change and deterioration in the word of the Buddha might intervene for an indefinite length of time. The ctys are the armour and protection against such an eventuality. As they hold a unique position as preservers and interpreters of true dhamma, it is essential not only to understand them but to follow them carefully and adopt the meaning they ascribe to a word or phrase each time they comment on it. They are as “closed” now as is the Pali canon. No additions to their corpus or subtractions from it are to be contemplated, and no cty written in later days could be included in it.” Hope there are some comments that might be helpful, Chris. Appreciating your other questions and the responses given too. Metta, Sarah p.s particularly liked the invisible kamma suitcase post;-) ====== 19898 From: Sarah Date: Wed Feb 26, 2003 4:40am Subject: Re: [dsg] (2)Anattta and Kamma and Conventional Events: A Brief Comment Hi Mike, --- "m. nease" wrote: > p.s. I'm not familiar with Sammohavinodani--part of the > Abhidhammapitaka? ..... I agree with Rob’s comments about the value of this Abhidhamma commentary. In addition to all the helpful quotes he gave, you might like to look at a longer section (inc. the quote on “insusceptibility to having power exercised....”) which is in this post: http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/m7920.html Unfortunately the Pali isn’t given for ‘exercising power’ or ‘power exercised’ in the transl. > I overlooked the last part of your post: -In Pali, I've found > for 'powerless': abala; dubbala; asamattha; Metta, Sarah p.s Good to see your keen interest again. ===== 19899 From: Sarah Date: Wed Feb 26, 2003 5:11am Subject: Re: [dsg] Discussion on Satipatthana at the Foundation week 5 no 2 Hi Jaran (& Ell), Many thanks for starting this series. So many good reminders. Look forward to more. Also, yr translation makes it sound like K.Sujin - the words she uses naturally. As usual, someone starts with a detailed technical "advanced" question and K.Sujin skilfully brings the discussion back to the present moment and the realities appearing now - helping us to appreciate the beginner baby steps first;-);-). Knowing what we don't know is so important. Metta, Sarah p.s. Hope we'll see you in Bkk 25th, 26th Apr. =============================================== --- Jaran Jainhuknan wrote: > (13:00min) > > K Busabongrampai (Q): Continuation of my question from last > week, there are 8 maggas arising with lokuttara citta > (during the Enlightment) and only 5 or 6 magga when > satipatthana arises. My question is "how many path factors > that are arising with vipassana ~na~na?" KS: > At the moment of seeing, there are both seeing and what is > being seen, ... and both now quickly have fallen away. > Similarly, at the moment of hearing, there is hearing and > what is being heard. If we are to experience the realities, > we will experience the characteristics of hearing that it is > the element that ``knows'' an object and what is heard as > the element that is being experienced. All of these happen > in daily, ordinary life. > > However, for beginners the arising of sati may be very far > apart. For example, sati may arise at certain moments of > hearing but not seeing. Between the moments of > satipatthana, there is thinking. Although thinking always > arises after seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting and > touching, we hardly know the quality of thinking. > > If vipassana ~na~na is to arise now to penetrate the > characteristics of dhamma, it will understand the quality of > dhamma as usual only more profoundly with finer detail. > Vipassana ~na~na understand the characteristics of thinking > that it is different from seeing, hearing etc. 19901 From: Sarah Date: Wed Feb 26, 2003 5:30am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: I want to learn more about the eight fold path Hi James, I greatly appreciate and respect your sincere and honest posts to the kids and the kindness you show. I also was very touched by the examples you gave of the work you do in so many different areas at your temple. Anumodana in both regards. Metta, Sarah ===== --- "buddhatrue " wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Star Kid > wrote: > > Dear James, > > > > Thank you for you letter and for your story that you > > wrote about how you got into Buddhism. 19902 From: Sarah Date: Wed Feb 26, 2003 5:38am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Comfort Hi Connie, There is a lot of depth in your posts, like Azita's which seem deceptively simple.... I've already commented on the rats in the maze elsewhere. --- connie wrote: > > This is one of those days when I argue with myself about everything like > I'm not happy with just one imaginary friend. I was going to say I > agree it's kinda lonely practicing in a non-buddhist country and the > answer to myself was "everything that comes to your senses is a a guest" > or a teacher... ala Ajarn Sujin. How can we be lonely? How can we not > be alone even in a crowd even everything is so temporary? ..... ;-) ..... You can > always pretend you're a visiting forest monk. Do I want buddhist > friends because I'm impatient and think I'd get somewhere faster? ..... ;-) ..... >I > need to learn how to read and follow the signs on the path? Maybe I > just have to trust that even if I'm still lost in the undergrowth, I'm > working towards the path. Like you say, at least I've met up with some > other people headed the same direction. Not many, but then, it's not > supposed to be widely travelled and it's probably a bit overgrown. ..... ;-) ..... > I think one of the scariest thoughts is that it's better not to practice > at all than to practice wrong. ..... ;-);-) Look forward to more insights;-) Metta, Sarah ====== 19903 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Feb 26, 2003 10:27am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:the blind Turtle, comfort. Dear Swee Boon, Christine, Kom and all, Thank you Swee Boon for the reminders contained in the texts. We should not waste our life, understanding is precious. If we take it in the right spirit, a shock reminder can be useful. I like it, Swee Boon, that you are so straightforward and open to give expression to your ideas and feelings. When in India, A. Sujin asked Kom to speak about the blind turtle. What are Kom's feelings about this? What impact did you feel, Kom? First of all, when we study a subject of Dhamma, or a sutta, what is the citta like? If we feel anxiety or frustration, there is restlessness, we have bad advisors ( destructive ministers). We shall not grasp the point of Dhamma that has been taught. Kusala citta is beneficial for study, it has a degree of calm. And best of all: Panna, be it only of the level of pariyatti. I looked at the Co to the second yoke hole sutta: it states: to penetrate the four noble Truths is extremely difficult, as difficult as what the blind turtle tries to do. Thus, this is stressed: realization of the noble Truths. When we read this sutta, we should have confidence and gratefulness that we are born a human and can hear the teachings, it is so rare. We should develop right understanding of nama and rupa, beginning now, when we read this sutta and reflect on it. Is there anxiety? That is a conditioned nama. Are we encouraged to be aware now? That is a conditioned nama. Do we cling to progress, that is a conditioned nama. If we think of becoming a sotapanna in this life, it induces clinging or despair. We should not think of progress, but rather contemplate this moment, whatever it is. Let us begin at the beginning. You are seeing now, seeing sees what is visible. Seeing is different from visible object, visible object does not know anything, it is just that which is seen. You are reading and thinking, these are different from seeing. When we study these moments is there any thinking of becoming a sotapanna? Without the Buddha's teaching we would never know about all dhammas appearing through the six doors. The opportunity to hear about this is very rare. By studying with awareness the namas and rupas that appear one at a time, panna develops to the stages of insight and then seeing and the other dhammas can be realized as impermanent. What is impermanent is dukkha, it is no refuge, not worth clinging to. The noble Truths can be penetrated, but we have to begin at the beginning, and now. The sutta can give us a sense of urgency, but, it should not lead to anxiety and stress. You may be thinking of becoming a sotapanna, then the moment is thinking, it is conditioned, just a nama. We may find that awareness arises very seldom, and that is because we have not sufficiently developed all the perfections, as A Sujin stresses. We need all of them so that we think less of ourselves. We need patience and truthfulness. We have to be so honest, know our own limitations. Through awareness we shall know more our conceit, clinging, all accumulated defilements. Let us walk the Middle Way: we should not think: it cannot be done, and on the other hand we should not think: I have to do it, now or never. Then there is so much self involved, it is so stressful. Let us develop right understanding just now, and not try to predict when the conditions are right for stages of insight or enlightenment. As Jon often said: awareness chooses its own sweet time. Yes, not "we" who can try and force it, impossible. Here we are with all our weaknesses, imperfections, but we should have confidence when we have understood the right Path. It is slow, but better the right Path then the wrong path which may seem to be fast, but which is actually into the wrong direction. In Thailand I heard the term kaliyana putthujana, a noble worldling (not enlightened). Does Kom know more about it? (Can Sarah bring this up when in Bgk and also the turtle sutta?) I think it means a person who has confidence in the right Path and develops it as best as he is able to. A.Sujin said that in the deva plane there are enlightened persons who teach Dhamma. But we should not speculate about rebirth, only think of this moment. Panna is accumulated and it takes aeons. In the Theritheragatha we read about many examples, how they accumulated panna and all kinds of kusala for aeons, until they met this Buddha and the time was ripe for enlightenment. See Therigatha Canto XII, Punna had taught the Dhamma, she had met and listened to five Buddhas before, but she was very conceited. She was born as a slave in the household of Anathapindika, and after hearing the Sutta on the Lion's Roar she became a sotapanna. Later on she attained arahatship. When we see our defilements accumulated for aeons, we understand that it takes aeons to accumulate panna and, all the perfections. ATI uses the translation of dukkha as stress: this is not the real meaning of the truth of dukkha: whatever is impermanent is dukkha, not worth clinging to, no refuge. May we all walk the right Path, even if it is very slow. Nina. op 25-02-2003 18:25 schreef nidive op nidive@y...: > > I find it scary when I reflect on this matter. The human state is > hard to obtain, much less the deva state. We must all strive to > achieve Sotapanna Enlightenment in this lifetime. It's now or > probably never (may be until the appearance of a million more > Buddhas could there be a "second" chance at Nibbana). > If one constantly give thoughts to the notion that Sotapanna > Enlightenment cannot be achieved in this lifetime, he/she is already > defeated. It can be done in this lifetime. The Buddha always > encouraged that it should be done in this lifetime. He never taught > us to accumulate panna over several lifetimes. I don't think he > taught that. I think the notion of accumulating panna over several > lifetimes is the worst thing that can be taught to anyone. It's > almost a lie. > > "It's likewise a sheer coincidence that one obtains the human state. > It's likewise a sheer coincidence that a Tathagata, worthy & rightly > self-awakened, arises in the world. It's likewise a sheer > coincidence that a doctrine & discipline expounded by a Tathagata > appears in the world. > "Therefore your duty is the contemplation: 'This is stress... This > is the origination of stress... This is the cessation of stress... > This is the path of practice leading to the cessation of stress.'" 19904 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Feb 26, 2003 10:27am Subject: FW: Co. Raahulovaadasutta. no 6 ---------- Van: nina van gorkom Datum: Wed, 26 Feb 2003 19:26:31 +0100 Aan: Pali yahoo Onderwerp: Co. Raahulovaadasutta. no 6 Commentary Raahulovaadasutta, no 6. Sutta: aanaapaanasati Raahula bhaavitaa bahuliikataa mahapphalaa hoti mahaanisa.msaa ti. The development of mindfulness on in and out breathing, Rahula, is of great fruit and profit." Commentary: mahapphalaa hotiiti kiivamahapphalaa hoti? idha bhikkhu aanaapaanassati.m anuyutto ekaasane nisinnova sabbaasave khepetvaa arahatta.m paapu.naati, tathaa asakkonto mara.nakaale samasiisii hoti, tathaa asakkonto devaloke nibbattitvaa dhammakathikadevaputtassa dhamma.m sutvaa arahatta.m paapu.naati, tato viraddho anuppanne buddhuppaade paccekabodhi.m sacchikaroti, ta.m asacchikaronto buddhaana.m sammukhiibhaave baahiyattheraadayo viya khippaabhi~n~no hoti, eva.m mahapphalaa. mahaanisa.msaati tasseva vevacana.m. Mahapphala hotii: it is very fruitful. Why is it very fruitful? Here, the monk who is intent on mindfulness of breathing eradicates all defilements and reaches arahatship in one session. If he cannot do this (asakkonto), there will be at the end of life the extinction of all defilements(samasiisi, who attains two ends simultaneously). If he cannot do this, he will be reborn in a deva plane, and when he has heard Dhamma from a deity (devaputto, son of a deva) who is a speaker of Dhamma (dhammakathika), he will attain arahatship. If this failed (viraddho) because the appearance of a Buddha had not taken place (anuppanne Buddhuppaade), he will realize the awakening of a solitary Buddha (Paccekabodhi.m). If he cannot realize this, he can, being in the presence (sammuukhiibhaave) of the Buddhas, realize the truth quickly (kippaabhi~n~no), such as the Elder Baahiya and others. The words mahapphalaa and mahaanisa.msaa, very fruitful, very beneficial, are synonyms. vuttampi ceta.m -- ``aanaapaanassatii yassa, paripu.n.naa subhaavitaa. anupubba.m paricitaa, yathaa buddhena desitaa. soma.m loka.m pabhaaseti, abbhaa muttova candimaa''ti.. (theragaa0 548; pa.ti0 ma0 1.1.60) -- The Buddha spoke as follows: ³The person who fully develops Mindfulness of Breathing, Who gradually accumulates it as taught by the Buddha, He brightens the world as the moon that is free from clouds.² ima.m mahapphalata.m sampassamaano thero saddhivihaarika.m tattha niyojeti. iti bhagavaa ruupakamma.t.thaana.m, thero aanaapaanassatinti ubhopi kamma.t.thaana.m aacikkhitvaa gataa, raahulabhaddo vihaareyeva ohiino. The Elder knew that Mindfulness of breathing was of great fruit and therefore he urged his pupil to develop it. Thus, the Blessed One taught the meditation subject of physical phenomena (rúpa), and the Elder taught Mindfulness of Breathing; when both of them had explained these subjects, they went away, and Lucky Rahula was left behind in the dwelling place. ***** Nina 19905 From: christine_forsyth Date: Wed Feb 26, 2003 1:20pm Subject: Re: Comfort Hello Swee Boon, and All, I have a few questions and comments about your post, Swee Boon, if you don't mind. (And a sutta.) Yes, it is scary to think one can become any of the list of animals, rodents and insects that you name - as are also the thoughts of the Hell realms, the Plane of Petas, and of Asuras. Some say that the Hell Realms and the rest are really only mind states experienced in this life; some say rebirth is not to be taken literally that we are merely reborn from instant to instant. The sutta quotes you give certainly state the rare opportunity that human birth, hearing the true Dhamma, and wise reflection provide. I am interested in what you say about Sotapanna Enlightenment being achieved in this lifetime. I was originally a practitioner of formal meditation following the Mahasi tradition as taught by U Pandita. But it has been explained to me (and I may have misunderstood) that there is no need for special postures, places, times or practices, as there is no self who can make sati arise; that there is no control or directing of mind states; that doing those things only signifies clinging and a belief in a 'self' who can make things happen. You say: "If one constantly give thoughts to the notion that Sotapanna Enlightenment cannot be achieved in this lifetime, he/she is already defeated. It can be done in this lifetime." C: I would be interested to hear how this time-table would be achieved, with no self, no control, and no clinging. Regarding 'panna' - do you have references to any suttas - I have been reading the Sammaditthi sutta 'Right View' - do you think this is the same as panna, wisdom? I have also been reading the Sotapattisamyutta 'Connected Discourses on Stream-Entry' 5 (5) Sariputta (2) p. 1792 Wisdom Ed. Bhikkhu Bodhi ------------------------------------ "Then the Venerable Sariputta approached the Blessed One, paid homage to him, and sat down to one side. The Blessed One then said to him: "Sariputta, this is said: 'A factor for stream-entry, a factor for stream-entry. 'What now, Sariputta, is a factor for stream-entry?" "Association with superior persons, venerable sir, is a factor for stream-entry: Hearing the true Dhamma is a factor for stream-entry. Careful attention is a factor for steam-entry. Practice in accordance with the Dhamma is a factor for stream-entry." "Good, good, Sariputta! Association with superior persons, Sariputta, is a factor for stream-entry. Careful attention is a factor for stream-entry. Practice in accordance with the Dhamma is a factor for stream-entry. "Sariputta, this is said: 'The stream, the stream. 'What now, Sariputta, is the stream?" "This Noble Eightfold Path, venerable sir, is the stream; that is, right view, right intention, right speech, right action, right liveliood, right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration." Good, good, Sariputta! This Noble Eightfold Path is the steam; that is, right view ... right concentration. "Sariputta, this is said: 'A stream-enterer, a stream-enterer.' What now, Sariputta, is a stream-enterer?" "One who possesses this Noble Eightfold Path, venerable sir, is called a stream-enterer: this venerable one of such a name and clan." "Good, good, Sariputta! One who possesses this Noble Eight-fold Path is a stream-enterer: this venerable one of such a name and clan" ----------------------------------- My understanding of this sutta is that there are four factors for attaining stream entry - association with superior persons, hearing the true Dhamma, careful attention, and practice in accordance with the Dhamma. The stream that one enters when one has fulfilled the four factors is The Noble Eightfold Path. If one possesses The Noble Eightfold Path one is a stream enterer. A few things are not clear to me: 1. Practice in accordance with the Dhamma - what exactly is this 'practice'? My understanding is that it is studying what arises at the sense doors in each moment., knowing the difference between nama and rupa, and thence seeing the impermanence, suffering and not- self of all dhammas. But others have different ideas. 2. The word 'possesses' - seems to indicate the Noble Eightfold Path is something one has as a complete thing, makes one's own - it seems a sudden acquisition - not a laborious one at a time strengthening/achieving of individual items on a list. 3. There is no indication of the length of time this should take. It doesn't say one lifetime or a million lifetimes. 4. Hearing the true Dhamma - how do we know what is 'true' dhamma? (Hence my interest in 'additions' to the Tipitaka - relying only on what one 'feels' is right, or what one has 'proved' for oneself, could be just delusion.) metta, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "nidive " wrote: <>> > Having pondered well on the above, do you understand why the Buddha > said: > > 10. "'Have I gained superhuman faculties? Have I gained that higher > wisdom so that when I am questioned (on this point) by fellow-monks > at the last moment (when death is approaching) I will have no > occasion to be depressed and downcast?' This must be reflected upon > again and again by one who has gone forth. > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/misc/protection.html#s1 > > Even though we have not gone forth, yet we must also reflect on this > matter again and again as though we had gone forth. The Buddha > singled it out as one of the ten essentials to be reflected again > and again. Why? Because the next life is uncertain for a worldling. > If he/she goes to the animal realm, there is no dhamma-faring there. > It would be extremely hard to continue the dhamma-faring if he/she > were to regain human status after a long time. > > It is said that there are more beings reborn in Hell, Ghost and > Animal realms than there are beings reborn in Human and Heavenly > realms. Isn't that scary? > > Regards, > NEO Swee Boon 19906 From: rjkjp1 Date: Wed Feb 26, 2003 1:54pm Subject: Re: Comfort --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth " wrote: > I wonder how one balances relaxing and enjoying > opportunities for kusala with practicing as if our hair were on > fire ... :-) > Thanks for writing, Robert, and for quoting Nina's great post. > > metta, > Christine > >____________ Dear Christine, As your post to Swee Boon shows you already have considered this well. But I like to add more as it is a 'crux of the biscuit' - as Herman says. Another western saying is 'make haste slowly'. As Nina said if there is no awareness of the realities now we might not see that hoping to be sotapanna is simply thinking rooted in tanha - papanca- that perpetuates samsara. We might even think it is kusala (wholesome) and encourage more of the same. When we study the suttas about the danger of samsara these should remind us to understand this moment as it is - whatever dhamma is arising. But if (and I see from your post how well you understand this) it is taken with subtle wrong view of a self (no matter how hidden that view is) then it leads to the wrong path, wrong effort and wrong concentration. I quoted last month what Dan dalthorp said about viriya in his unique way: "As an example, consider effort/energy/endeavour which is one of the components of each: the right exertions, the bases of power, the five faculties, the five strengths, the seven factors for Awakening, the noble eightfold path. We read from the Dhammasangani (376): Katamam tasmim samaye viriyindriyam hoti? "What at that time is the faculty of effort/energy/endeavor?" "That which is mental endeavor (viriyarhambo), riddance of lethargy, exerting harder and harder, endeavoring higher and higher, striving, painstaking zeal, utmost exertion, steadfastness, resoluteness, unfaltering endeavor, having sustained desire (chanda) to strive, not relinquishing the task, discharging the task well, effort (viriya) as the faculty of effort, power of effort, WRONG effort -- this at that time is the faculty of endeavor." Wrong effort?! Everything sounded pretty good up to that point! This is a description of the viriya cetasika arising with lobha-mula- cittani. " endquote. So we see how wrong effort can appear very much like right effort. One has to be so honest to really see the characteristic of the moment to discern what is what. I wrote this letter to you many months ago: Any moment of discouragement is dosa (aversion). It is natural that this arises but largely it is because of self attachment. The dosa can be object for satipatthana and so can the unpleasant feeling, or the self view that conditioned these. In this way progress is being made here and now. It must take a long time to truly understand because the Dhamma is so deep. If we want to get there fast this is simply tanha (craving) and adds to the time. Knowing that it takes time I feel patient to investigate carefully, in a relaxed way, the nature of dhammas, without hoping for results." Now of course we can't just decide not to have tanha for attainment- if it is there is is there. But we do need to see it as tanha. And because of the complexity of conditions it can even be upanissaya paccaya(supporting condition) for insight so that one has such desire and they may then study more, consider more , become aware of the present moment until gradually they come to see the nature of this tanha. Then wisdom will see that wanting and the path are different ways. Majjhima Nikaya Sutta 22: Last paragraph: Bhikkhus the Dhamma well proclaimed by me is clear open, evident, and free of patchwork. In the Dhamma proclaimed by me thus .. those bhikkhus who have sufficient faith in me, sufficient love for me, are all headed for heaven" The Atthakatha says that this refers to persons who are devoted to insight but who haven't yet reached any stage of enlightenment. RobertK 19907 From: a_doc99 Date: Wed Feb 26, 2003 3:58pm Subject: Hi Kom Hi Kom: I read from a message. You came from Thailand and now live in the US, right? Can I ask you something? What city,state do you live? I came from Thailand too and now live in Duncanville, TX. It's just south of Dallas. Have a peaceful day, A 19908 From: connie Date: Wed Feb 26, 2003 5:20pm Subject: Re: Comfort Thank you for the kind words and encouragement, Sarah. connie 19909 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Wed Feb 26, 2003 6:41pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Hi Kom Hi A, I will respond to you off-line. Incidentally, my nickname is C. ;-) kom > -----Original Message----- > From: a_doc99 [mailto:sandoc@e...] > Sent: Wednesday, February 26, 2003 3:58 PM > To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [dsg] Hi Kom > > > Hi Kom: > I read from a message. > You came from Thailand and now live in the US, right? > Can I ask you something? > What city,state do you live? > I came from Thailand too and now live in Duncanville, TX. It's just south > of Dallas. > Have a peaceful day, > A 19910 From: Star Kid Date: Wed Feb 26, 2003 9:00pm Subject: Buddhist monks Dear James, I read your writing that you sent to Ki Yong. It was very interesting to read your reply to Ki Yong about the American monks. This is my first time writing a letter to you, so please let me introduce myself. My name is Se Yeon from Korea. I'm 14 years old. Although I am Christian, I began to be interested about the Buddhism. I really wantd to know about the monks. Actually, what is the purpose of the monks? What do they do? Hmm... I hope you could reply to me and the answers to my questions. Sorry that my letter is too short. :) Thank you. Se Yeon 19911 From: Star Kid Date: Wed Feb 26, 2003 9:13pm Subject: Rasicm and an accident in Korea... Dear James, Hello, it's me Ki Yong. I read your long letter. Thank you for telling me about the American Monks. It was quite interesting, but this one thing bothers me a lot. It's the last paragraph about you becoming a monk, and some racist people said monks are unintelligent and they are ugly. I don't know why some people say those stuff. I HATE racists, but I am quite of a racist too... hehe.... That's how anti-americanism started in Korea. At first they were angry about an America ice-skater who lied and a Korean skater who was in the first place lost his gold medal. On American TV Show, they called the American skater, and the TV show host said, "I bet that Korean kid is eating his own dog for his dinner! HAHA!" Another things Koreans hate about America, is the accident in Korea. An American tank killled two girls on the bridge, but American soldiers didn't show up for judjement. Nowadays, Koreans hate George Bush for making problems worse. Oh well, I hope I didn't make you angry. What do you think about racists? I think you heard about the accident in Korea on Feb 18th in the subway station. More than 140 people died and more than 140 people were injured. Why did they have to die? In Buddishm I heard that monks believe in rebirth. Would those people who were killed have rebirth in the future? I mean like would only some people would rebirth or everyone will have a rebirth? The next day after this accident, I went to school. I told my friends about the fire. My friends just nodded and started to talk and laugh again. I told my Korean friends, they just made sad faces and went away. On September 11th, I was sad for one day, but I don't know why I am more sad about this accident. More people were killed on September 11th, but I am more sad about this accident. I think it's because I am Korean… Would other people feel the same as me? How do you feel about this accident? Here is a poem about this accident wrote by my favourite game player. He's from our game community. -------------------------------------------------- POEM *If other men or I could have saved them… And there weren't any tears… Could it have been… An accident… Or a terror attack… Or a murder… They disappeared in a flame… Just like Jesus did on a cross… Death comes suddenly to people… But… Was it their fault? Just because of one man's selfishness They shouted and yelled And started falling down in the dark fog There was a student who just graduated from univeristy who was celebrating with his mom… There were young siblings who were looking for their mom… Their were old couples enjoying shopping… But their souls left us forever… That time, When the door didn’t open Worried and Feared What was I doing? That morning, Just like my lifestyle, I was infront of the monitor Laughing… I was shouting at my mom that breakfast tasted disgusting I was shouting if I could stop studying… That time, What if I was there? What could have I done? If I could give them my fun time… What if… They had powers to open the door, The fire would just end up burning one seat… And just ended as a small accident… What if the happening could have been forgotten easily, What if there wasn’t their tease and our tears… Yes… We must remember the time the pain they felt… We shouldn’t forget… How hot could it have been? How painful could it have been? Even one years passes… Even ten years passes… Even one hundered years passes… When we think of this unforgottable accident We should cry and pray for the souls… Their pains might have been over and now they could be laughing in heaven… But… Our pain is still left… Their family and our pain is still left… If other men or I could have saved them… And there werent any tears…* END ----------------------------------------------------- OK… I am done with the poem… There are many grammar mistakes because I translated into English from Korean. I think it would be good to read this to your students so they might think that Koreans are not dumb and there will be less racism ^^ Thank you for reading my letter. Mine was quite long too. HAHAHA Sorry, I gotta go. Bye From, Ki Yong 19912 From: buddhatrue Date: Wed Feb 26, 2003 10:56pm Subject: Re: Back again --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Star Kid wrote: > > Dear James, > I am actually full of questions, I love > asking questions. I think the new cook poem is really > gross! Eating turtle and monkey meat? GROSS! Actually > Chinese in the mainland do eat all those stuff but not > me! The food in the poem is quite gross. > > Here are some of my questions: > Are you really coming to Hong Kong? Can you > explain more about the 8-foot-path? Is it something to > memorize? Do you put your sister's picture on the > alter? What does light unto ourselves mean?(In > your letter to Kiana) > Love > Janice Hi Star Kid Janice! Hehehe…yea, it is pretty gross to eat turtle and monkey meat. The grossest things I have ever eaten are frog legs and escargot (sea snails)! ;-) I thought I was pretty adventurous in eating, but I don't think I am really. I do have a limit to what I will eat. Let me tell you a funny story. I went with a friend to Thailand for a vacation and before we went he got all kinds of shots and was taking some kind of antibiotic every day also. He was afraid he might get sick from the food. Well, I didn't get any shots beforehand and didn't take any medicine (and I never got sick…both times I went). He told me that I was crazy and that I should have gotten those shots and took the medicine like he was. Anyway, we were on a tour bus when the tour director passed around a bag of fried bugs that she bought from someone who came up to the bus when it stopped. My friend ate them! Yuck! And he bought a bag to take home! They were greasy, fried moth larvae that eat the inside of bamboo plants; in other words, they weren't much different from maggots! My friend ate fried maggots and he says I'm crazy! HA! ;-) hehehe… Okay, now, let me answer your questions: Question: Are you really coming to Hong Kong? Answer: I was planning to come this summer but that was before I accepted a job teaching in Cairo, Egypt. I have some friends who teach at a private school there and they told me about the job. From Cairo, I plan to visit a lot of places and Hong Kong is high on the list. I have heard that Hong Kong is expensive so I will have to wait until I have enough money saved up. I want to visit India, Sri Lanka, Turkey, Africa, Greece, and Honk Kong in the next two years. But since I know there are so many good Buddhists in Hong Kong, I will bump it to the top of the list ;-). Question: Can you explain more about the 8-foot-path? Answer: I just wrote a letter to Jan (#19895) that explains the eightfold path in an overall way. Maybe that can help you. If you have any specific questions about any of the areas, write back and ask away (but you should anyone else about Right Speech…that isn't one of my stronger areas…;-) Question: Is it something to memorize? Answer: It is helpful to memorize it and then when you have confusion in your life you can see where if conflicts with the eightfold path. Many Buddhists don't fully know the eightfold path. Either they don't know it at all or they shoot right past it and focus on the supermundane eightfold path, when they haven't even gotten the basic one down first. Unfortunately, many people look at Buddhism as a philosophy rather than a way to live your life. And I can understand why because Buddhism is a brilliant and complete explanation for life and its meaning. But Buddhism is meant to be practiced, not just thought about. Question: Do you put your sister's picture on the alter? Answer: No, I don't. And my grandmother died last week so now her ashes and my grandfather's ashes are there with hers (my brother was estranged from the family so we don't have his ashes...long story I would rather not share). I am glad that my parent's followed my advice and brought the ashes home to be with the family rather than in a cemetery somewhere. Some people might think that is morbid but that is because they are afraid of death. I try to contemplate on those ashes as often as I can to remind myself that someday my body will also be ashes in a jar. There is no way to escape that fact. Question: What does light unto ourselves mean?(In your letter to Kiana) Answer: It means that, ultimately, we each answer to and are dependent on only ourselves. Janice, I can tell you about Buddhism, and others can tell you about Buddhism, and you can read what others say about Buddhism, and you can read what the Buddha said about Buddhism, but it is all up to you! No one can do anything for you; you have to do it for yourself. The light represents meaning (to show the truth) and inspiration (the comfort and warmth of light), and those two things really have to come from yourself. The Buddha said this to his followers before he died, "Therefore, Ananda, be islands unto yourselves, refuges unto yourselves, seeking no external refuge; with the Dhamma as your island, the Dhamma as your refuge, seeking no other refuge." I wrote `light' unto yourself because I was going from memory and this passage is often translated as `light' instead of `island', but it still has the same general idea. It is from our own `light' that we may become `enlightened'. Love, James 19913 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Wed Feb 26, 2003 11:10pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Abandoning Howard Thanks for your comments. --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Jon - ... > 1. 'What in your opinion is the difference between being a Buddhist > and not being a Buddhist?' > > Quite clearly it would be that fact that for a person who has not in > this lifetime heard the teachings, there can be no direct awareness > of/insight into the true nature of a presently arising > dhamma/fundamental phenomenon. No matter to what extent that skill > may have been developed in previous lifetimes, it always requires the > renewed exposure to the teachings to manifest, such is the depth and > intricacy of the truths to which the teachings relate. > --------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Then you disbelieve in paccekabuddhas it would seem. --------------------------------------------------------- J: Not at all, I treat them as an exception (I should perhaps have indicated this). However, even for a paccekhuddha, it is only in the very last life that development of insight without first hearing the teachings on that subject is possible, so this in an extremely rare case in the overall scheme of things. > For the person who has heard and understood the teachings in this > lifetime, there can be satipatthana/insight. > ------------------------------------------------------ Howard: Mmm, yes. There can be. There also might not be. What makes the difference? What past events make the difference? Also, is hearing and understanding sufficient? Are not actions taken for the development of mindfulness and concentration needed? The Buddha seems to have recommended them. --------------------------------------------------------- J: All good questions, Howard ;-)). I’ll do my best to answer. 1. What makes the difference? What past events make the difference? So much/many things. Starting with kusala kamma of the right kind in the past that results in hearing the dhamma and meeting the right people this time around. Developed insight in the past, without which there could be no ‘base’ for the development of insight in this lifetime. The right conditions for appreciating the significance (i.e., urgency) of the task when hearing the dhamma in this life. 2. Also, is hearing and understanding sufficient? They are both indispensable. And understanding is both goal and the means to the goal, because understanding comes at different levels. 3. Are not actions taken for the development of mindfulness and concentration needed? Mindfulness and understanding are both aspects of the direct experience of a presently arising dhamma. They are not the outcome of ‘actions’. Just as dana or sila, although performed through the body, are in the ultimate sense mental factors that arise if the appropriate conditions are present, so also with mindfulness and understanding. All these tendencies are present by way of latent accumulations, and are capable of manifesting ‘on their own’ (but not without the right conditions being present). It’s true they need prompting, but not in the form of actions, as I understand it. 4. The Buddha seems to have recommended them (i.e., actions taken for the development of mindfulness and concentration needed). Well, this is a matter of how one reads the texts. I think my views on this are well enough known! ;-)) … ----------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Why do moments of satipatthana/insight arise? Merely from hearing and understanding the dhamma? And, again, what about the paccekabuddhas? ----------------------------------------------------------- I think my comments above have covered this point. … ------------------------------------------------------ Howard: When I say path of *practice*, I am referring to a(conventionally) volitionally adopted program of training and cultivation. Are you saying that listening to and reading and thinking over the Dhamma is the entirety of that? ----------------------------------------------------- Well, I of course do not see any reference in the texts to a “(conventionally) volitionally adopted program of training and cultivation”. But I do see specific and repeated references to listening to, reading and thinking over the Dhamma. Properly understood, they are the basis on which a level of direct understanding may arise (however, they should not be thought of as ‘bullet points’). Jon 19914 From: Sarah Date: Wed Feb 26, 2003 11:25pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Height of the Buddha (was: Janice's letter (long posts with Jataka tale) Hi Kom, --- Kom Tukovinit wrote: > ... Thanks for the clarifications and references. Now, I have plenty of > materials to look up, and to ask.... ..... S:I’ve got a little more to add to your calculations (we’ve got til Friday afternoon HK time when I see Janice again to get it straight.....)I'm not sure if the links will work or not. ..... 1. Another measurement is ‘abbhantara’ as in Vinaya (Bk of Discipline 11,3). Acc. to the commentary (VA654) “here one abhantara is twenty-eight hands (hattha)”. Elsewhere it says 28 ratanas=one abhantara. So ratana=hattha. 2.http://216.239.33.100/search?q=cache:TYsIYBNkVgAC:lakdiva.net/mahavamsa/pali.html+hattha&hl=en&ie=UTF-8 "YOJANA - a measure of length. According to the system of the Abhidhanappadipika, 1 yojana is = 4 pilvuta = 80 usabha = 20 yatthi = 7 ratana (or hattha `ell') = 2 vidatthi (span) = 12 angula. According to RHYS DAVIDS, the native tables of linear measures make the yojana between 12 and 12 .5 miles, but in actual practice it must have been reckoned as 7-8 miles." ..... S:Do we know what is meant exactly by vidatthi (span) here? In the 32 marks of the Buddha (Lakkhana Sutta, DNiii, 1,144) we read: “his proportions have the symmetry of the banyan-tree: the length of his body is equal to the compass of his arms, and the compass of his arms is equal to his height...” ..... 3."Abbhantara: a unit for measuring distance, approximately equal to 14 meters." http://216.239.39.100/search?q=cache:qYqXZNml_qQC:www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/modern/thanissaro/bmc2/glossary.html+abbhantara&hl=en&ie=UTF-8 S: 1m=3’3”. 1Abbhantara=about 45feet If 1abbhantara=28hattha, one hattha = approx 1.5feet (I’ll let you tidy up the figures) if Ven. Thanissaro is correct(?). Obviously he takes the forearm measurement. Also see this link for more abbhantara measurements and also ‘hatthapasa’ which confuses me further. The references are from the same section of the vinaya I was looking at in Horner’s transl: http://216.239.39.100/search?q=cache:Myyh5EmoU4IC:www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/modern/thanissaro/bmc1/ch07-1.html+abbhantara&hl=en&ie=UTF-8 ..... 4.Another hattha=forearm measurement quote (thanks to Christine for teaching me how to google and cache at the same time;-)) http://216.239.39.100/search?q=cache:Dx2YjEeatKkC:www.payer.de/mahavamsa/chronik15e2.htm+abbhantara&hl=en&ie=UTF-8 "Sattabbhantarasîmâ (seven bows' length sîmâ) ------------------------------------------------------------------------ "It is said that in uninhabited forests, the sangha limits the area of concord with a radius of seven abbhantara, beginning from the edge of the sangha itself. The diameter is therefore fourteen abbhantara. One abbhantara is twenty-eight forearms-lengths or seven wah (1 wah = 2 metres) in length. Seven abbhantara are therefore forty-nine wah (nearly 100 metres). The Atthakathâ-Âcariyas say monks who dwell within this araññasîmâ (forest sîmâ) enjoy advantages, (but) they may not stay apart from their ticîvara -- which contradicts the Vibhanga on the second sikkhâpada, Cîvaravagga of the Nissaggiya Chapter -- and that ticîvara-avippavâsa is limited only to a specially determined baddhasîmâ. I do not understand how this is possible." ------------------------------------------------------------------------ K:> So do you think people in India in the Buddha's age (2500 yrs ago) were > 20 > feet tall? Do you think this is general or exceptional? We have > exceptionally gigantic people too: try that Chinese basketball guy (Yao > Ming > with the Houston Rockets) in the US. All archeological evidence (bones, > remains, Chinese terra-cotta, etc.) seem to all point to present-sized > people, though. ..... Again, I think we would read it if the Buddha was ‘gigantic’ like Yao Ming and we don’t. I agree it’s all a mystery. Perhaps the figure(s) is/are wrong in the Buddhavamsa transl (wrong in the source or a typo??). If it should be 8 and not 8 hattha, that would make the Buddha 10feet instead of over 20 (still very tall, but getting closer to Yao Ming;-)). ..... S:> > The tallest of previous Buddhas was Sumana Buddha at 90 hattha = > 112.5 > > feet!! but then, many of the earlier buddhas recorded here (Bv) had a > > lifespan of 100,000 years, the normal length of life at the time. > K:> But those are supposed to live for 10 thousands of years!!! If someone > lives that long, I wouldn't be surprise if they are that big.. ..... S:The same measurement of hattha (or s’times ratana) is used. Looking at all the figures , the one for Gotama (18 hattha) is disproportionately high, so I’m thinking this must be an error. ..... K:> That would make literal also why V. Sariputta & V. Maha-mogallana are > always > in smaller images, even when they are right next to the Buddha, assuming > that the Buddha's size is larger than the 2 V, of course. ..... S:;-) Impossible, I think. Sometimes people like (King)/Ven Pukkusati didn’t know at first they’d encountered the Buddha. They didn’t say “wow, I’ve just met a giant twice my size...”;-) ..... K:> OK. So much for my disbelief. I will search to see if there are any > more > references I can find. Otherwise, I will ask some more too. ..... S:I’ve just gone back to check the actual text of Buddhavamsa and I found something interesting. In the actual accounts of all the other Buddhas, I can find the mention of the heights (using ratana or cubit, i.e hattha). BUT, of interest, is that in the brief account of Gotama at the end, I can’t find a reference to the height. However, in the comy(Maduratthavilaasini, PTS, Clar. of Sweet Meaning, Differences Between the Buddhas296), it compares all the heights, using cubits (hattha)only. All the heights are exactly the same as in the table Horner gives and in the individual accounts of the Buddhas. It also says here: “Our Lord was eighteen cubits in height” at the end of the details. So it’s not a typo in the table. Maybe you could check this detail in the Thai commentary or Suan or someone could check in other versions. That’s all I can suggest. It’s in the last chapter of the comy . Hope this helps. A little bit of fun for me too;-) Metta, Sarah ====== 19915 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Wed Feb 26, 2003 11:30pm Subject: Re: [dsg] kamma from not acting or not speaking? Chris --- "christine_forsyth " wrote: > Dear Group, C: Is mundane right action just that ... does it have to be an action? i.e. could 'wrong action' (miccha kammanta) ever be 'no action', or abstaining from action that could have produced a greater good? Could 'wrong speech' (miccha-vaca) ever be 'not speaking' when speaking out may prevent great wrong? J: Mundane right action, like supramundane right action, is a mental factor that accompanies a moment of consciousness. Analysing actions in terms of their situational ‘goodness’ does not help us to understand the characteristic of this mental factor. Actions that are perceived to be for the greater good could be the product of mostly akusala cittas. C: Who is responsible (i.e. inherits the results of kamma) for decisions made in a democracy, where the decision makers are voted in by each free adult? If the voting adults support and speak in favour of the decision for war, or just go along with/or don't oppose that decision, do they share the kamma and vipaka? J: ‘Kamma’ is another mental factor. There is no concept of ‘shared kamma’ (or shared vipaka) in the teachings. C: How is it viewed in Buddhism if a person doesn't do something, when they are well able to, that might influence the decision makers and prevent the doing of great harm? J: It all depends on the nature of the mindstate at that particular moment. It would not be possible to generalize by reference to the ‘greater good/greater harm’ aspect of the situation. This can be verified by one's own experience. I hope this helps. Jon 19916 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Wed Feb 26, 2003 11:41pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Kamma and Conventional Events: A Brief Comment Rob M Hi, nice to have you back again. --- "robmoult " wrote: > Hi Howard, ... > Every microsecond, millions of javana cittas in millions of thought processes arise. The cetana cetasika in each javana citta does two > things: > - Creates a kammic seed > - Reinforces an accumulation (mental habit) Most javana cittas do not create kammic seed, since they are not of the ‘completed kamma’ kind; they only reinforce existing accumulations. Thought this was worth mentioning, as your comments above could be read differently. Jon > Since many of the kammic seeds can last multiple lifetimes, we all > have a gazillion kammic seeds waiting for the right conditions to > arise so that they can develop into vipaka. No matter how "saintly" > > we may have been, we all have lots of "this-lifetime-ending kammic > seeds" hanging around waiting for the right conditions to arise. > On 9-11, for a few thousand people, conditions arose which > allowed "this-lifetime-ending kammic seeds" to develop. > > Though, technically, there was a cause-effect relationship between > the specific volitional activity and the "this-lifetime-ending > vipaka", trying to understand this relationship is well beyond me. > I > believe that this is one of the stages of understanding that the > Buddha developed on the night of His enlightenment. > > I find it useful to contemplate that cetana also reinforces an > accumulation. What happens to us happens because of conditions and > kammic seeds. How we react to what happens to us (and the new > kammic > seeds that we create) is dependent on our accumulations. > > Comments? > > Metta, > Rob M :-) 19917 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Thu Feb 27, 2003 0:22am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re:the blind Turtle, comfort. Dear Nina, Christine, and Swee Boon, > -----Original Message----- > From: nina van gorkom [mailto:nilo@e...] > When in India, A. Sujin asked Kom to speak about > the blind turtle. What are > Kom's feelings about this? What impact did you feel, Kom? Whenever I hear such teachings, I sometimes feel anxious, although not for a long time. I also feel immense appreciation that there is such a person who would urge us on to be diligent, to have patience, to have spiritual urgency, to be true to developing wisdom and all other kusala states, in order to reach the far side. Before we read the sutta, we may be forgetful, but after reading the sutta, there may be conditions for mindfulness, at different levels to arise. Having good friends who remind us, who teach us, who urges us on is most precious. > I looked at the Co to the second yoke hole sutta: > it states: to penetrate > the four noble Truths is extremely difficult, as > difficult as what the blind > turtle tries to do. Thus, this is stressed: > realization of the noble Truths. We can see for ourselves how difficult the path is. When there is mindfulness being aware of reality, how much do we learn? Not very much at all. But I am confident that if there if there is panna knowing the reality, it will develop, albeit very slowly. The simile given is that of wearing down the knife handle: although you don't know that the handle is being worn away, but if you compare now and (long) before, you can sometimes see some difference). The next moment after mindfulness, more attachment! We are bound to go off the wrong path very easily. The Buddha describes the 8-fold path as an even path, but is very dangerous in the beginning. We have so much attachment to ourselves that we are likely to be led the wrong way. I really like what Nina said about parami needing to be developed; otherwise, the love of self hinders the development of panna. > In Thailand I heard the term kaliyana putthujana, > a noble worldling (not > enlightened). Does Kom know more about it? (Can > Sarah bring this up when in > Bgk and also the turtle sutta?) The word is used in many places. Here is an explanation from the atthagatha: There are two types of putujana: anta-putujana (like in anta-pala - fool who encourages one to be involved in business one shouldn't be involved in), and kalayana-putujana. In the two types of putujana, the one who doesn't learn, doesn't verify, doesn't listen, doesn't keep in mind, doesn't consider Kandha, Dhatu, Ayatana, etc., is called anta-putujana. The one who does all those things are kalayana-putujana. It seems that those who studies (sikha) the dhamma (for reaching the far side) are of 8 types: 7 sekha, and 1 kalayana-putujana. The antapala-putujana is one who attach, the 7 sekha and the kalayna-putujhan are ones who detach. > I think it means > a person who has confidence > in the right Path and develops it as best as he > is able to. I understand that it is one who develops the path. > A.Sujin said > that in the deva plane there are enlightened > persons who teach Dhamma. But > we should not speculate about rebirth, only think > of this moment. Who knows what's going to happen in the next life? Here we are, here and now, in the Dispensation of the Buddha, among those who would carefully explain to us what he taches. This opportunity is rare and precious. The next moment hasn't come, and the past one is already gone. kom 19918 From: robmoult Date: Thu Feb 27, 2003 3:42am Subject: [dsg] Re: Kamma and Conventional Events: A Brief Comment Hi Jon, Nice to be back! --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > --- "robmoult " wrote: > Hi > Howard, > ... > > Every microsecond, millions of javana cittas in millions of thought > processes arise. The cetana cetasika in each javana citta does two > > things: > > - Creates a kammic seed > > - Reinforces an accumulation (mental habit) > > Most javana cittas do not create kammic seed, since they are not of > the `completed kamma' kind; they only reinforce existing > accumulations. > > Thought this was worth mentioning, as your comments above could be > read differently. By "creating a kammic seed", I meant creating a "potential condition for a vipaka citta to arise". My understanding is that a vipaka citta arises based on two conditions: 1. "A kammic seed" created by some past javana citta 2. Suitable conditions which allow the kammic seed to develop It is my understanding that every javana citta creates a "kammic seed" (a future potential). In every citta process, there are seven javana cittas: - The "kammic seed" from first javana citta must find suitable conditions to ripen in this lifetime or else it becomes inoperative (ahosi-kamma); this is the weakest of the seven - The "kammic seed" from seventh javana citta must find suitable conditions to ripen in the next lifetime or else it becomes inoperative (ahosi-kamma); this is the second weakest of the seven - The "kammic seed" in the second to the sixth javana citta can ripen (when suitable conditions arise) any time from the next lifetime until parinibbana. I believe that the magga cittas will make certain kammic seeds inoperative as well. I agree with you, that we should also focus on the accumulations rather than solely on the kammic impact of a javana citta. Jon, reading your message, I draw one of two conclusions: 1. My understanding is incorrect 2. I chose bad words to communicate my understanding Please clarify. Metta, Rob M :-) 19919 From: Date: Thu Feb 27, 2003 0:26am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Abandoning Hi, Jon - I agree with much that you say in the following, copied at the bottom of this post. But the one word you never use is 'volition'/'intention'/'cetana', almost as if it were an item you'd rather be omitted from the lists of cetaskas. Yes, I know that cetana is a condition arising to some degree or other all the time. All the more reason not to ignore it. I also know that it arises in response to conditions. (All sankharas do.) Near the end of your post you write the following: Jon: Well, I of course do not see any reference in the texts to a “(conventionally) volitionally adopted program of training and cultivationâ€?. Howard: You are correct. I'm certain that exact sequence of words (in Pali, of course) nowhere occurs in the tipitaka. Jon:  But I do see specific and repeated references to listening to, reading and thinking over the Dhamma. Howard: That's it, Jon? No exhortations to guard the senses, to meditate and develop jhanas, to be ever mindful of what arises through the six sense doors? Just to read and think over? Jon:  Properly understood, they are the basis on which a level of direct understanding may arise (however, they should not be thought of as ‘bullet points’). Jon, it seems to me that you drastically reduce the content of what the Buddha taught. Of course, I could be wrong in many ways. With metta, Howard In a message dated 2/27/03 2:12:44 AM Eastern Standard Time, jonoabb@y... writes: > > Howard > > Thanks for your comments. > > --- upasaka@a... wrote: >Hi, Jon - > ... > >1. 'What in your opinion is the difference between being a > Buddhist > >and not being a Buddhist?' > > > >Quite clearly it would be that fact that for a person who has not > in > >this lifetime heard the teachings, there can be no direct awareness > >of/insight into the true nature of a presently arising > >dhamma/fundamental phenomenon. No matter to what extent that skill > >may have been developed in previous lifetimes, it always requires > the > >renewed exposure to the teachings to manifest, such is the depth > and > >intricacy of the truths to which the teachings relate. > > > --------------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Then you disbelieve in paccekabuddhas it would seem. > --------------------------------------------------------- > > J: Not at all, I treat them as an exception (I should perhaps have > indicated this). However, even for a paccekhuddha, it is only in the > very last life that development of insight without first hearing the > teachings on that subject is possible, so this in an extremely rare > case in the overall scheme of things. > > >For the person who has heard and understood the teachings in this > >lifetime, there can be satipatthana/insight. > > > ------------------------------------------------------ > Howard: > Mmm, yes. There can be. There also might not be. What makes > the difference? What past events make the difference? Also, is > hearing and understanding sufficient? Are not actions taken for the > development of mindfulness and concentration needed? The Buddha seems > to have recommended them. > --------------------------------------------------------- > > J: All good questions, Howard ;-)). I’ll do my best to answer. > > 1. What makes the difference? What past events make the difference? > So much/many things. Starting with kusala kamma of the right kind in > the past that results in hearing the dhamma and meeting the right > people this time around. Developed insight in the past, without > which there could be no ‘base’ for the development of insight in this > lifetime. The right conditions for appreciating the significance > (i.e., urgency) of the task when hearing the dhamma in this life. > > 2. Also, is hearing and understanding sufficient? > They are both indispensable. And understanding is both goal and the > means to the goal, because understanding comes at different levels. > > 3. Are not actions taken for the development of mindfulness and > concentration needed? > Mindfulness and understanding are both aspects of the direct > experience of a presently arising dhamma. They are not the outcome > of ‘actions’. Just as dana or sila, although performed through the > body, are in the ultimate sense mental factors that arise if the > appropriate conditions are present, so also with mindfulness and > understanding. All these tendencies are present by way of latent > accumulations, and are capable of manifesting ‘on their own’ (but not > without the right conditions being present). It’s true they need > prompting, but not in the form of actions, as I understand it. > > 4. The Buddha seems to have recommended them (i.e., actions taken > for the development of mindfulness and concentration needed). > Well, this is a matter of how one reads the texts. I think my views > on this are well enough known! ;-)) > > … > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Why do moments of satipatthana/insight arise? Merely from > hearing and understanding the dhamma? And, again, what about the > paccekabuddhas? > ----------------------------------------------------------- > I think my comments above have covered this point. > > … > ------------------------------------------------------ > Howard: > When I say path of *practice*, I am referring to > a(conventionally) volitionally adopted program of training and > cultivation. Are you saying that listening to and reading and > thinking over the Dhamma is the entirety of that? > ----------------------------------------------------- > Well, I of course do not see any reference in the texts to a > “(conventionally) volitionally adopted program of training and > cultivationâ€?. But I do see specific and repeated references to > listening to, reading and thinking over the Dhamma. Properly > understood, they are the basis on which a level of direct > understanding may arise (however, they should not be thought of as > ‘bullet points’). > > Jon > > > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 19920 From: nidive Date: Thu Feb 27, 2003 8:44am Subject: Re: Comfort Hi Christine, > Some say that the Hell Realms and the rest are really only mind states > experienced in this life; some say rebirth is not to be taken literally > that we are merely reborn from instant to instant. A person who holds such wrong views goes to the woeful realms. > there is no need for special postures, places, times or practices, as there > is no self who can make sati arise; that there is no control or directing > of mind states; To say that there is no need for special postures, I agree. To say that there is no need for special places, I agree. To say that there is no need for special times, I agree. But to say that there is no need for special practice, I disagree. To say that there is a self that controls or directs the mind states is one extreme. To say that there is no control or directing of mind states is another extreme. Non-selfness is understood "in the middle". It does not negate control or direction of mind states. A person who holds either extreme view goes to the woeful realms. > that doing those things only signifies clinging and a belief in > a 'self' who can make things happen. "'This body comes into being through craving. And yet it is by relying on craving that craving is to be abandoned.' Thus it was said. And in reference to what was it said? There is the case, sister, where a monk hears, 'The monk named such-and-such, they say, through the ending of the fermentations, has entered & remains in the fermentation-free awareness-release & discernment-release, having known & realized them for himself in the here & now.' The thought occurs to him, 'I hope that I, too, will -- through the ending of the fermentations -- enter & remain in the fermentation- free awareness-release & discernment-release, having known & realized them for myself in the here & now.' Then, at a later time, he abandons craving, having relied on craving. 'This body comes into being through craving. And yet it is by relying on craving that craving is to be abandoned.' Thus it was said. And in reference to this was it said. "'This body comes into being through conceit. And yet it is by relying on conceit that conceit is to be abandoned.' Thus it was said. And in reference to what was it said? There is the case, sister, where a monk hears, 'The monk named such-and-such, they say, through the ending of the fermentations, has entered & remains in the fermentation-free awareness-release & discernment-release, having known & realized them for himself in the here & now.' The thought occurs to him, 'The monk named such-and-such, they say, through the ending of the fermentations, has entered & remains in the fermentation-free awareness-release & discernment-release, having known & realized them for himself in the here & now. Then why not me?' Then, at a later time, he abandons conceit, having relied on conceit. 'This body comes into being through conceit. And yet it is by relying on conceit that conceit is to be abandoned.' Thus it was said, and in reference to this was it said. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an04-159.html > C: I would be interested to hear how this time-table would be > achieved, with no self, no control, and no clinging. Please reconsider your query in light of the above. > Regarding 'panna' - do you have references to any suttas - I have > been reading the Sammaditthi sutta 'Right View' - do you think this > is the same as panna, wisdom? This Noble Right View is indeed panna. It is supramundane panna. A Sotapanna always has to penetrate the Law of Dependent Origination. The practice of Vipassana is to penetrate this Law. This Law can also be summarised as just the Four Noble Truths. > 1. Practice in accordance with the Dhamma - what exactly is > this 'practice'? My understanding is that it is studying what arises > at the sense doors in each moment., knowing the difference between > nama and rupa, and thence seeing the impermanence, suffering and not- > self of all dhammas. But others have different ideas. What you described is not wrong. But intellectual understanding is different from direct insight. I also think that a certain level of momentary concentration is necessary for there to be deeper insights than those produced by shallow mindfulness. If one does not develop momentary concentration well, one will be stuck in these shallow insights without further progress. And all panna that is developed must penetrate the Law of Dependent Origination. > 2. The word 'possesses' - seems to indicate the Noble Eightfold Path > is something one has as a complete thing, makes one's own - it seems > a sudden acquisition - not a laborious one at a time > strengthening/achieving of individual items on a list. Only an Ariya possesses the Noble Eightfold Path. It is not wrong to say that it is a sudden acquisition at the time of the First Magga. Nevertheless, the Mundane Eightfold Path still needs to precede the Noble Eightfold Path. Personally I think the eight factors are developed in tandem and not separately. I don't think it is designed such that the factors are to be developed separately. > 3. There is no indication of the length of time this should take. > It doesn't say one lifetime or a million lifetimes. "When Sariputta accepted pupils for training, whether they were ordained by him or by others, he favored them with his material and spiritual help, looked after them in sickness, gave them a subject of meditation and at last, when he knew that they had become Stream- winners and had risen above the dangers of the lower worlds, he dismissed them in the confident knowledge that 'Now they can, by their own manly strength, produce the higher stages of Saintship.' Having thus become free from concern about their future, he instructed new groups of pupils. But Maha Moggallana, when training pupils in the same way, did not give up concern for them until they had attained Arahatship. This was because he felt, as was said by the Master: 'As even a little excrement is of evil smell, I do not praise even the shortest spell of existence, be it no longer than a snap of the fingers.'" http://www.abhidhamma.org/life_of_sariputta.htm#helper > 4. Hearing the true Dhamma - how do we know what is 'true' dhamma? > (Hence my interest in 'additions' to the Tipitaka - relying only > on what one 'feels' is right, or what one has 'proved' for > oneself, could be just delusion.) One need not take a stand on whether this or that is the true Dhamma. If it agrees with reality, then it's the true Dhamma. I don't think taking a stand on this matter will help in any way. Please discard such unwholesome and unprofitable thinking. If it causes stress, then discard it. If it causes perplexion, then discard it. If it causes doutbs, then discard it. If it does not help at all, then discard it. If you know that you will never get the perfect answer, then discard it. It is just mental stress. Regards, NEO Swee Boon 19921 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Feb 27, 2003 10:18am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: vipassana Dear smallchap, see below. op 24-02-2003 16:25 schreef smallchap op smallchap@y...: S: It is interesting that you mentioned panna as the leader. > I can learn much from you here. Since panna is the leader, can we > safely say that there is no vipassana knowledge without panna? Or, > put it another way, when one acquires vipassana knowledge, one is > said to have acquired panna as well? N: Insight knowledge is panna, it is panna developed from intellectual understanding to direct understanding, insight. There are many levels of panna: panna stemming from listening and reflection, pariyatti. There is panna accompanying sati that is aware of realities appearing through the six doors, this is the development of direct understanding, it is not theoretical, but it is in comformity with what one has learnt by listening and studying. This is patipatti, panna of the level of practice. In the beginning it is not yet clear understanding, and it may seldom arise. There are many moments of thinking of nama and rupa, and sometimes (when it is not planned) there may be conditions for a moment of direct awareness of one object at a time. But many moments of doubt are bound to follow: is it seeing or is it visible object, it seems that nama and rupa are together. Or: is this direct awareness or is it thinking, the borderline maybe unclear. In reality, only one object at a time can be known by sati sampaja~n~na, this is another name for awareness and panna. It takes time for direct understanding to develop, and when the conditions are right panna of the degree of vipassana nana can arise, stage by stage. S: Then again, how is panna > developed? N:By listening, considering, studying. Understanding what the right Path is and what the wrong Path. S: Before one develops panna, one is sure to encounter the > pitfalls, or may be not. Is there any other way a worldling can > develop panna without being trapped in the pitfalls? N: Good question. Our own defilements are the pitfalls. These are bound to be counteractive. Especially attachment and wrong view. Taking what is the wrong way for the right way. We should be very sincere, very honest to see where we are trapped by our attachment to result, to quick progress, when we are trying to find shortcuts. Or we may be impatient, frustrated, there is such a lot of clinging to "I". We have to understand that panna develops when there are the right conditions for its development: association with the right friend in dhamma, listening, considering, asking questions, applying what one has heard. > S: Thank you. You reminded me to read the book that I have not > touched for so many years since I bought it. N: The English text of the Path of Discrimination is not so clear. They translate khanti as choice, for example. In the back is a register of terms so that you can find the Pali. Do not hesitate to ask me when there is trouble to find out the meaning. >> Lobha is the second noble Truth, it has to be known. When? Now, > when it >> appears. > S: I have a problem here. Do you mean lobha as the cause of > suffering? You are right. We don't suppress akusala. N: The origin of dukkha: craving for all the sense objects, craving for existence and non-existence. This is not an abstract notion, the craving for all the objects we experience now is real all the time. The origin of dukkha is real now, at this moment. We are in the cycle of birth and death, accumulating evermore lobha. > S: Thank you. I benefit much from your quoting the reference. It > forces me to go back to the text. > >> N: The Buddha then explains that when there is no desire for > objects, he is >> aware that there is no desire. > > S: I suppose the no desire come first, followed by its awareness? N:Alobha can be just during the moment of awareness, or it can mean that he has eradicated it. He knows when it has been eradicated, there is panna. We cannot count the moments of insight, there are several processes with insight. No need to think: does awareness follow. > > S: I learn much from the above post. I have learnt that at the level > of bhanga-~naa.na, one needs little effort to be aware of anicca, > dukkha or anatta from moment to moment. N: From moment to moment, this is not sure; panna at that level begins to understand more the three characteristics. Since there is more detachment panna can see the dissolution of realities. All this is because of conditions. There is also right effort, but no self, it is a cetasika performing its function. No need to think of effort. Sankharupekkha: See Path of Purification, p. 61-63, and Buddhist Dictionary, p. 149, and p. 181, under Visuddhi: no 6,7,8: Desire for Deliverance, Reflecting Contemplation and Equanimity for the conditioned realities, sankhara dhammas are actually the same. Insight, shortly before adaptation (anuloma and gotrabhu, change of lineage when the process begins during which enlightenment occurs). Here insight is turning away from sankhara dhammas and inclining towards the uncondiitoned dhamma. The Path of Discrimination mentions: seeing formations (sankhara dhammas) as impermanent, dukkha, non-self. And a warning: when an ordinary person, and even a trainer (sekha, who is an ariyan but not yet arahat) delights in equanimity about sankhara dhammas, he defiles his cognizance, and that is an obstacle to development. Thus we see, even at such an advanced stage there are still pitfalls. I am surprised by this text myself. A good warning, isn't it? Attachment arises until one is an arahat. There are degrees of realizing the noble Truths. For the ariyan who is not yet an arahat, there is still the second noble truth, the clinging which conditions going around in the cycle, thus, which is the origination of dukkha. But has no more wrong view and he is sure to reach the final goal. It shows how persistent clinging is. All the more for us now. We cannot expect to notice all the pitfalls at this very moment. But we should just go on developing understanding. Even understanding of the level of pariyatti is very beneficial. It is the foundation for direct understanding later on. Without the Buddha we would not have any level of understanding of realities. May we all be aware of pitfalls, Nina. 19922 From: connie Date: Thu Feb 27, 2003 11:07am Subject: preliminary practice Hi, Sukin. In an off-line message to me you used the phrase "inclined toward 'deliberate preliminary practice' as a means to vipassana" and I'm curious as to what that means. Would that be trying to practice samatha meditation as a foundation for vipassana or trying to create some other kind of conditions that would make one 'ready to advance' to vipassana? Would just holding onto the idea of a self and wanting to reach any goal fit that? Thank you, connie 19923 From: Date: Thu Feb 27, 2003 6:41am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Comfort Hi, Swee Boon (and Christine) - In a message dated 2/27/03 11:48:45 AM Eastern Standard Time, nidive@y... writes: > Hi Christine, > > >Some say that the Hell Realms and the rest are really only mind > states > >experienced in this life; some say rebirth is not to be taken > literally > >that we are merely reborn from instant to instant. > > A person who holds such wrong views goes to the woeful realms. > --------------------------------------------------- Howard: Gosh, I feel awful bad for Buddhadasa Bhikkhu! --------------------------------------------------- > > > >there is no need for special postures, places, times or practices, > as there > >is no self who can make sati arise; that there is no control or > directing > >of mind states; > > To say that there is no need for special postures, I agree. > To say that there is no need for special places, I agree. > To say that there is no need for special times, I agree. > But to say that there is no need for special practice, I disagree. > -------------------------------------------------- Howard: I concur with the preceeding four. -------------------------------------------------- > > To say that there is a self that controls or directs the mind states > is one extreme. > > To say that there is no control or directing of mind states is > another extreme. > > Non-selfness is understood "in the middle". It does not negate > control or direction of mind states. > ----------------------------------------------- Howard: I agree. ---------------------------------------------- > > A person who holds either extreme view goes to the woeful realms. > ---------------------------------------------- Howard: Almost every living human being holds one of these extreme views, usually the first. Surely they held their view in their precious life as well. So .. how did they ever get here???? ========================= With metta, Howard 19924 From: rjkjp1 Date: Thu Feb 27, 2003 0:26pm Subject: Re: Comfort --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "nidive " > To say that there is a self that controls or directs the mind states > is one extreme. > > To say that there is no control or directing of mind states is > another extreme. > > Non-selfness is understood "in the middle". It does not negate > control or direction of mind states. > > A person who holds either extreme view goes to the woeful realms. > _______________________ Dear Swee boon, Could you elaborate more on why you think a person must believe in control and directing of mind states if one is to avoid going to the woeful realms. > > I also think that a certain level of momentary concentration is > necessary for there to be deeper insights than those produced by > shallow mindfulness. If one does not develop momentary concentration > well, one will be stuck in these shallow insights without further > progress. ________ You do realise that khanika samadhi(momentary concentration) arises with both kusala and akusala states? RobertK > 19925 From: Date: Thu Feb 27, 2003 3:46pm Subject: Way 56, Comm, Clear Comprehension 1 "The Way of Mindfulness" by Soma Thera, Commentary, The Section on the Four Kinds of Clear Comprehension, 1. Clear comprehension in going forwards and backwards, p. 72 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/misc/wayof.html Like the fifty bhikkhus who entered upon the rainy season residence, at the Monastery of the Galamba Landing Place. On the full-moon day of July (asalha), they made this covenant of observance: -- "Without attaining Arahantship we shall not converse with one another." These bhikkhus used to enter the village for alms filling the mouth with a draught of water, and when questioned about the date and so forth they acted just according to the method mentioned above. In that village people, having seen the spots on which mouthfuls of water had been spurted forth by the returning bhikkhus, said: "Today one came; today, two," And those people thought: "What indeed is the reason that these bhikkhus neither talk with us nor with each other? If they do not speak with each other, surely, they are persons who have had a dispute amongst themselves," and saying: "Come, we must make them forgive one another," went -- in a body -- to the monastery. There, they saw that no two bhikkhus were in the same place. Then a wise man in that crowd said: "Good people, a place which quarrelsome folk occupy is not like this. The relic-shrine and the Bodhi-shrine terraces are well swept. The brooms are well arranged. And water for drinking and water for washing are well set." Then those people just turned back. And the bhikkhu of that monastery attained Arahantship within three months and performed a Pure Pavarana ceremony. [Tika] "Diverting the talk" = Turning away the talk because of unostentatiousness due to Realization [adhigamappichiccha-taya]. "Keeping to only the postures of standing and walking": This is said by way of the postures proper to be resolved upon for adherence. One restricts oneself to these postures not however by way of refusing to practice the proper-to-be-practiced and necessary posture of sitting at meal-time and on such other occasions; for, by the word, only, it should be understood that one tops the remaining forms of sitting, namely, every sitting-posture not absolutely necessary of practice, and the posture of lying down. [T] "I will honor the Blessed One's great struggle." According to my strength, I will do worship to the six-year asceticism of extreme torture undertaken by the World's Redeemer for our sakes, since even the honoring of the Master, through conduct, is the more praiseworthy kind of worship. Not so praiseworthy is the worship (of him) with material things. [T] "Pure pavarana". The Pavarana through the state of destruction of the outflowings -- Arahantship [khinasava bhavena pavaranam]. 19926 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Thu Feb 27, 2003 3:53pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Kamma and Conventional Events: A Brief Comment Rob M --- "robmoult " wrote: > Hi Jon, > > Nice to be back! ... > By "creating a kammic seed", I meant creating a "potential > condition > for a vipaka citta to arise". My understanding is that a vipaka > citta arises based on two conditions: > 1. "A kammic seed" created by some past javana citta > 2. Suitable conditions which allow the kammic seed to develop > > It is my understanding that every javana citta creates a "kammic > seed" (a future potential). In every citta process, there are seven > > javana cittas: > - The "kammic seed" from first javana citta must find suitable > conditions to ripen in this lifetime or else it becomes inoperative > > (ahosi-kamma); this is the weakest of the seven > - The "kammic seed" from seventh javana citta must find suitable > conditions to ripen in the next lifetime or else it becomes > inoperative (ahosi-kamma); this is the second weakest of the seven > - The "kammic seed" in the second to the sixth javana citta can > ripen (when suitable conditions arise) any time from the next > lifetime until parinibbana. I believe that the magga cittas will > make certain kammic seeds inoperative as well. It’s my understanding (but I could be wrong) that only the javana cittas that are kamma patha (completed action) will be kamma condition for the arising of vipaka cittas. As I’m on the road (at an internet café in Adleaide, to be exact), I don’t have access to my usual sources for checking, so I can’t give you any references right now. Will try to do so later. Others may wish to come in on this in the meantime. Jon 19927 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Thu Feb 27, 2003 4:28pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Abandoning Howard --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Jon - > > I agree with much that you say in the following, copied at > the bottom > of this post. But the one word you never use is > 'volition'/'intention'/'cetana', almost as if it were an item you'd > rather be > omitted from the lists of cetaskas. Yes, I know that cetana is a > condition > arising to some degree or other all the time. All the more reason > not to > ignore it. I also know that it arises in response to conditions. > (All > sankharas do.) > Near the end of your post you write the following: > > Jon: > Well, I of course do not see any reference in the texts to a > “(conventionally) volitionally adopted program of training and > cultivationâ€?. > > Howard: > You are correct. I'm certain that exact sequence of words > (in Pali, of > course) nowhere occurs in the tipitaka. > > Jon: >  But I do see specific and repeated references to > listening to, reading and thinking over the Dhamma. > > Howard: > That's it, Jon? No exhortations to guard the senses, to > meditate and > develop jhanas, to be ever mindful of what arises through the six > sense doors? Yes, that is the conventional language used. But if you look into specific sutta references in detail, as you and I did recently for right effort in the context of the effort to develop or to abandon, you find there’s a lot more to it. Hearing, considering and ‘gaining a reflective acceptance’ of what has been heard and considered can be a condition for a level of understanding to arise. Understanding is understanding of what is before us right now. What needs to be the object of that understadnign is lready present, but is not seen as it truly is, because of wong view about it’s nature. Hence the importance of repeated hearing, considering and relating to the present moment. > Just to read and think over? It's very easy not to fully appreciate the importance of this. > Jon: >  Properly > understood, they are the basis on which a level of direct > understanding may arise (however, they should not be thought of as > ‘bullet points’). > > Jon, it seems to me that you drastically reduce the content > of what > the Buddha taught. Of course, I could be wrong in many ways. I am concerned with understadnign correctly and in detail the content of what the Buddha taught, as the necessary basis for the development of understanding at a direct level. Jon 19928 From: robmoult Date: Thu Feb 27, 2003 7:56pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Kamma and Conventional Events: A Brief Comment Hi Jon, I'm in Florida, so I don't have my books with me either. The only use of the term "patha" in Nyanatiloka is: ====== kamma-patha: 'course of action', is a name for the group of 10 kinds of either unwholesome or wholesome actions, viz. I. The tenfold unwholesome courses of action (akusala-kamma-patha): 3 bodily actions: killing, stealing, unlawful sexual intercourse; 4 verbal actions: lying, slandering, rude speech, foolish babble; 3 mental actions: covetousness, ill-will, evil views. Unwholesome mental courses of action comprise only extreme forms of defiled thought: the greedy wish to appropriate others' property, the hateful thought of harming others, and pernicious views. Milder forms of mental defilement are also unwholesome, but do not constitute 'courses of action'. II. The tenfold wholesome course of action (kusala-kamma-patha): 3 bodily actions: avoidance of killing, stealing, unlawful sexual intercourse; 4 verbal actions: avoidance of lying, slandering, rude speech, foolish babble; i.e. true, conciliatory, mild, and wise speech; 3 mental actions: unselfishness, good-will, right views. Both lists occur repeatedly, e.g. in A. X, 28, 176; M. 9; they are explained in detail in M. 114, and in Com. to M. 9 (R. Und., p. 14), Atthasálini Tr. I, 126ff. ===== It is my understanding that these are actions which, when complete (kamma-patha) can cause rebirth either in a woeful state (in the case of akusala kamma patha) or in a human/deva/brahma realm (in the case of kusala kamma patha). In other words, kamma-patha is only relevant at the time of rebirth-linking. I did not think that kamma-patha had anything to do with the vipaka cittas that arise during a lifetime, such as the ones which condition a visible object to arise at the eye door. Anybody have any opinions? Metta, Rob M :-) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott > It's my understanding (but I could be wrong) that only the javana > cittas that are kamma patha (completed action) will be kamma > condition for the arising of vipaka cittas. > > As I'm on the road (at an internet café in Adleaide, to be exact), I > don't have access to my usual sources for checking, so I can't give > you any references right now. Will try to do so later. Others may > wish to come in on this in the meantime. 19929 From: Sarah Date: Thu Feb 27, 2003 11:08pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re:the blind Turtle, comfort. Dear Nina, Kom, Chris, Swee Boon, Rob K & All, I’ve greatly appreciated your posts under this subject heading. Nina wrote: “The noble Truths can be penetrated, but we have to begin at the beginning, and now. The sutta can give us a sense of urgency, but, it should not lead to anxiety and stress.” ..... This is a good point and one that Swee Boon, Rob K and others make well too. As Kom writes at the end of his post: “Who knows what’s going to happen in the next life? Here we are, here and now, in the dispensation of the Buddha, among those who would carefully explain to us what he teaches. This opportunity is rare and precious. the next moment hasn’t come, and the past one is already gone.” More and more, I think we cannot overemphasise how much clinging to self there is at the gross and subtle levels. For my part, I know that as soon as there is any concern about death, results of kamma, next life and so on, it is on account of this same clinging. Like Kom says, reading suttas such as this one about the blind turtle, should be a condition for appreciation of the opportunity for awareness and insight at this moment. Nina further writes: “You may be thinking of becoming a sotapanna, then the moment is thinking, it is conditioned, just a nama. We may find that awareness arises very seldom, and that is because we have not sufficiently developed all the perfections, as A Sujin stresses. We need all of them so that we think less of ourselves. We need patience and truthfulness. We have to be so honest, know our own limitations. Through awareness we shall know more our conceit, clinging, all accumulated defilements. Let us walk the Middle Way: we should not think: it cannot be done, and on the other hand we should not think: I have to do it, now or never. Then there is so much self involved, it is so stressful. Let us develop right understanding just now, and not try to predict when the conditions are right for stages of insight or enlightenment.” ..... I appreciated the reminder about the importance of detachment in another post to really understand realities. If there is attachment to certain kinds of thinking and finding ourselves and ‘our’ progress to be so important, there won’t be any detachment from what is conditioned already at this moment. As Rob K suggested, it doesn’t matter if there is this kind of thinking -- if it’s there, it’s there by conditions anyway -- but there can be awareness instantly of the thinking or lobha arising. A year or two ago, when we were in Bangkok, I asked K.Sujin a question about metta and its development. From her answer, I thought at first she hadn’t heard or understood the question, but then very quickly I realised that she understood it only too well. Her answer in effect was simply: “clinging to self again”. In other words, it was apparent just by the question and interest/concern in having more metta, that it was rooted in attachment. At the time, the reply gave me something of a jolt (probably a ‘mana’ jolt;-)), but very quickly I appreciated the reminder. I also find that so much of the time I’m lost in ‘my’ story or difficulties. We forget that these are common to all. Everyone has the same problems or worse. Last weekend after I finished teaching, I was feeling rather subdued because we had just had to download an investment at a big loss as a result of the crash in the economy here. While we were relaxing by the pool, a friend came over to talk to us. His wife is the manager of a restaurant that had to downsize to stay afloat and several staff had lost their jobs. One of these had deliberately hired someone to throw acid into the eyes of our friend’s wife. It’s unlikely, even after much surgery that she will regain her eyesight. All we could do by way of comfort was to show sympathy, have equanimity and try to help him not feel so bitter about the attacker. Anything can happen at any moment. I quickly forgot ‘my’ story. Earlier that day one of my students had also told me how the day before his grandmother had been knocked down and killed whilst crossing the road at the same place she’s crossed it to go to the park for exercise for 30 or 40 years. Hearing these stories can be a condition for calm and wise reflection and for less attachment to the self. So often the difficulties we experience, such as the loss of money, are merely difficulties in the mind. The stress and anxiety is merely dosa on account of that clinging to self. We try to ‘work out’ how this or that could be avoided or how our actions or someone else’s could be different, not realising that given the conditions at the time, the cittas and accompanying mental factors had to be and have to be now, just the way they are with one citta marching on after the last by proximity condition in process after process as I was discussing with RobM. There are so many pitfalls a Nina discussed on account of wrong view and other kilesa (defilements). I also appreciate the reminder from Bkk: “When there is a moment of awareness, we should ask ourselves: do I want more? If we try to find ways and means to have more awareness, it is wrong practice, it prevents us to see the anattaness, also of sati and panna.” Christine’ question is a really good one (look forward to more responses and more of such questions, Chris;-)): “I wonder how one balances relaxing and enjoying opportunities for kusala with practicing as if our hair were on fire ... :-)” I think the answer depends very much on how one understands anatta as Chris, Rob K and Swee Boon are discussing. Metta, Sarah ======= 19930 From: Sarah Date: Thu Feb 27, 2003 11:15pm Subject: Re: [dsg] preliminary practice Hi Connie, Sukin and any other 'off-line message' senders;-), --- connie wrote: > Hi, Sukin. > > In an off-line message to me you used the phrase "inclined toward > 'deliberate preliminary practice' as a means to vipassana" and I'm > curious as to what that means. Would that be trying to practice samatha > meditation as a foundation for vipassana or trying to create some other > kind of conditions that would make one 'ready to advance' to vipassana? > Would just holding onto the idea of a self and wanting to reach any goal > fit that? ..... Thx Connie. We're also interested to hear your reflections, Sukin..;-) Without discussions on-line there is no discussion list. We all need the encouragement from time to time from the lurkers too;-) hope to hear from some of you as I sign off..... Metta, Sarah ====== 19931 From: Sarah Date: Thu Feb 27, 2003 11:23pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Kamma and Conventional Events: A Brief Comment Hi Rob M, --- "robmoult " wrote: > Hi Jon, > > I'm in Florida, so I don't have my books with me either. ..... Good to hear from you and Jon on the road and dependent on your wits;-) You asked a week ago fro an on-line version of the Sivaka sutta that Howard was referring to after TG gave a SN reference. I think you'll find it with the Pali and commentary notes in this post of Nina's. Hope it helps. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/13094 Metta, Sarah ====== 19932 From: Sukinderpal Singh Narula Date: Fri Feb 28, 2003 0:31am Subject: Re: preliminary practice Hi Connie (and Sarah), > Hi, Sukin. > > In an off-line message to me you used the phrase "inclined toward > 'deliberate preliminary practice' as a means to vipassana" and I'm > curious as to what that means. Would that be trying to practice samatha > meditation as a foundation for vipassana or trying to create some other > kind of conditions that would make one 'ready to advance' to vipassana? > Would just holding onto the idea of a self and wanting to reach any goal > fit that? I thought that you would put it in different words, as my above statement was made with regard to a certain Abhidhamma teacher who felt that the practice of jhana, would assist in vipassana. The same person also has the idea that until and unless one kept strict sila, there was no way that satipatthana could be developed properly. However since you addressed the question directly to me and since I feel that my statement could be applied to other situations as well, I will express some personal views. You asked, "Would that be trying to practice samatha meditation as a foundation for vipassana?" I don't think that samatha leads to vipassana. There is no direct relationship. Samatha is kusala and is to be encouraged, ie. when the conditions are right for it to arise, one knows it. I believe that the more kusala one experiences the better it is in that it accumulates as sankhara. But can we make up our minds to develop it? If for example one does not have the accumulations for dana, can the act of giving be considered development? The kusala may only be a short moment, followed by many moments of akusala. So is the trying fruitful? Is kusala being developed? In the same way one may be mislead by practices such as `metta bhavana' as it is generally known, to be thinking that one is developing kusala. In reality I think one is developing ignorance. Ignorance as per `ignoring what is really going on'. Instead many believe that such practices are a foundation for vipassana. Even if metta arises easily for one, if one knows about Satipatthana and understands it's true significance, wouldn't knowing metta for what it is be more important than trying to have more metta? Wherefore the need to do anything for the citta that knows and understands. One may resolve to develop metta toward all beings, but that would be only a moment of citta accompanied by other kusala cetasikas. Does this entail a kind of formal practice? But only panna can see this. In fact I believe that those people who are the most eager to develop metta, are those who react towards their own aversion with aversion . The person who naturally has metta, does not dwell on the need to develop it. But we are taught that samattha leads to vipassana, so it is also the question of ditthi. I think one sees a logical relation between the two, as the one leading to the other, because one does not understand about the complexity of conditions and anatta. It is with the same kind of reasoning that many think that suppressing the hindrances is a must if satipatthana is expected to arise at all. I think many do not understand the value of pariyatti, that even this is a level of panna and that higher levels are built upon this initial level. Our greatest enemy is avijja, not a non-concentrated mind. The reason Buddha realized anatta is not because his mind became more concentrated, but because this veil of delusion was finally lifted. Concentration is not a rarity, everyone has it. But our objects of concentration is the concepts built upon ignorance accumulated over eons. This is why according to my understanding, any development along the path of buddhadhamma, hinges upon the distinction between concept and reality. And that distinction can only start with the intellectual knowledge of the Teachings. Patipatti develops upon this, not because there is a `self' which then decides to apply what has been heard, but when enough of intellectual understanding has taken place, the conditions would be right for the practice to take place. But this too, is just a moment of understanding which arises and falls, and only with regard to the particular aspect being understood. Not a course taken as one does in school, at the end of which it is all application, but many level of this too need to be developed and accumulated before the next stage of pativedha is reached. Even a Sekha continues learning theory, someone who no more has any doubts about reality, how much more so do we? Also I believe many people forget that ignorance is being developed if one takes what is concept to be reality. And I find it particularly dangerous, if one mistakes wrong practice to be the right one. As in the case where one formerly sits and believes that one is observing rise and fall, when in reality one is only perceiving concepts of rise and fall. And so far I have not even mentioned the automatic attachment to concept of time, place and posture!;-). This is why, pariyatti is important, and this is why wise friends are important, and why wise consideration is important. You then asked, "Would just holding onto the idea of a self and wanting to reach any goal fit that?" Holding to the idea of self, is one problem, it can be done with tanha, mana or ditthi. This creates multiple problems on its own, each reinforcing the other. `Wanting to reach the goal' I believe, can be with wrong or right view. For us unenlightened worldlings, does aiming for Nibbana make any sense if we do not even know the characteristic of lobha, dosa and moha? Parinibbana I believe makes sense only to very high level of panna. So I think only a Sotapanna and up, could talk about wanting to reach it with any basis. I sometimes think about aiming to become a Sotapanna (not in this lifetime though) or at least reach the level of sacchayana (in this lifetime), but what is the basis of my having these aspirations. Are the accumulations right and ripe? No!! But does this discourage me? No! In fact with these false aspirations and hence subtle wish and expectations out of my mind, I am less distracted. Besides what is a `lifetime', what is 5 years, or 10 or 20? What is tomorrow? Aren't all these just concepts? Is there any reality other than this moment now? If the fire burning on our heads happening yesterday or tomorrow? Or is there only this moment?! I had other things in mind, but this is already too long. So I will end here and wait for feedback. :-) Best wishes, Sukin. 19933 From: m. nease Date: Fri Feb 28, 2003 5:43am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Comfort Dear NEO Swee Boon, ----- Original Message ----- From: mailto:nidive Some say that the Hell Realms and the rest are really only mind states > experienced in this life; some say rebirth is not to be taken literally > that we are merely reborn from instant to instant. A person who holds such wrong views goes to the woeful realms. ______________________ I think some direct textual support for this specific statement would be very useful. ______________________ > there is no need for special postures, places, times or practices, as there > is no self who can make sati arise; that there is no control or directing > of mind states; To say that there is a self that controls or directs the mind states is one extreme. To say that there is no control or directing of mind states is another extreme. ______________________ This sounds to me like a false dilemma; more properly one could say: To say that there is a self that controls or directs the mind states is one extreme. To say that there is a no self that controls or directs the mind states is another extreme. or that To say that there is control or directing of mind states is one extreme. To say that there is no control or directing of mind states is another extreme. ______________________ Non-selfness is understood "in the middle". It does not negate control or direction of mind states. A person who holds either extreme view goes to the woeful realms. ______________________ Could you please offer a citation from the texts in which anatta is explained as 'in the middle' (afraid I'm very rusty!)--thanks. ______________________ mike 19934 From: Deanna Shakti Johnson Date: Fri Feb 28, 2003 6:28am Subject: Re:(3) Anattta and Kamma and Conventional Events(? at end) Robert and others, I am not sure who this was written by but I have a question. The message was as follows. My questions are at the end. Thanks Shakti ,SNIP > ------------------------- There are 2 main aspects to insighting the present moment: 1. with understanding of the causes and; 2. without, simply knowing the moment. THe Dhammapada pradipaya (see p457 of carter) speaks about the development of insight into characteristics: "[1.]to consider the coming into being of rupa on account of ignorance, craving, kamma and nutrition, [2.]and ALSO to see the mere characteristics of its instantaneous coming into being, WITHOUT looking for causative aspect; thus one should consider the rise of rupa in five ways. Likewise to consider the rise of the other 4 khandas in the same way...Thus the rise of the pancakkhanda (five aggregates )is seen in 25 ways. To see that the rise of the khandas is stopped by abolishing the causes:ignorance, craving, kamma and nutrition..in this way the cessation of the agregates should be seen" end quote Acharn Sujin explains that the moments of actual vipassana are far deeper than thinking about causative aspects. The conditions are known without any need for words. When there is `conncentration on the moment' it can be with right view or wrong view, right concentration or wrong. The uninstructed worldling knows something of the characteristics of the present moment, he knows when he craves or feels angry. He can experience all types of subtle vibrations and hardness and coldness etc. If he trains himself by yoga or meditation etc. he can know that these are changing and many other things. But he conceives them wrongly as being me or mine etc.. The enlightened one experiences all these same dhammas but with the eye of wisdom. The "uninstructed worldling" p40 of mulapariyaya "needs to be taught, because he possesses neither learning(agama) nor achievement. For he who possesses neither the learning running counter to the activity of conceiving because he has neglected to study, question, and discriminate the aggregates(khandhas), elements, sense bases (ayatanas) truths, law of conditionality and foundations of mindfulness etc , nor spiritual achievement because he has failed to achieve what should be achived by practice is said to be 'uninstructed'. end qoute. Bhikkhu Bodhi notes in his introduction to mulapariyaya p14 That "in the stage of full understanding of the known, the gross object is analysed into its constituent dhammas and each dhamma is delimited in its distinct characteristic, function, manifestation, and proximate cause. This procedure rectifies the common sense assumption of simple substantial unites, disclosing in its place a world of composite wholes brought temporarily together through a concantenation of conditions" enquote. <<<<>>>---------------------------------------------- After reading the above I was reminded of what I thought I heard Ajahn Sujin say while I was in Bangkok. This is how I remember it - The experience of the five senses at contact with an object are always a neutral experience, when an object is perceived at the mind door it can be either pleasant, unpleasant or neutral and finally physical feeling is always only pleasant or unpleasant. Is this correct? I can understand the initial neutral experience as being neutral and then the mind door process that follows being pleasant, unpleasant or neutral but I am not clear about the physical being only pleasant or unpleasant. Why no neutral here??? Can you or anyone give some examples about this. Thank you to everyone for their interesting posts. As I travel alot I don't seem to have much time to post but read when I find sometime. I appreciate your comments as they give me much to reflect on. Thanks, Shakti "rjkjp1 " wrote:--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "bodhi342 " wrote: > > As far as I can tell many suttas are very like specific prescriptions > for particular situations, for particular recipients of the Buddha's > knowledge. ____________ Dear Dhamram, Yes, the suttas in the sutta pitaka is directed specifically to individuals and groups and so the Buddha tailored the words to suit. ------------ Therefore, I am possibly more cautious than many > others, in making inferences that apply to contemporary > understanding. 2500 yrs ago, belief in devas, hell etc. may > have been commonplace, and therefore appropriate as illustration. > They may even exist, but that is beyond this poor human's > verification! Therefore, we can view them as metaphors (as Howard > suggests), real (as I think many on dsg would accept), or just time > and situation specific - where we should be careful about > overinfering meaning. > > I have no doubt that kamma is complex, both as reality and as > concept ;-). We can verify much of momentary conditions, even > aspects of dependant arising, but how can we verify kamma? I > would place kamma in the 'faith' pigeonhole of my understanding, as I > cannot remember my last life, let alone for aeons; nor do I know of > any objective measure to prove or disprove the construct. _______________ No objective measure used by science could prove kamma as kamma can only be undertood by insight knowledge not measures or instruments. ------------- > > Therefore, when we use a metaphor to help with understanding an issue > of faith, it is subjective. This is based on inference. This > contrasts with the important tenet of the Buddha to verify whatever > is understood and practiced. Hence, my plea for logical > argument. That logic, premises etc. may be tainted (or flooded) > with the three poisons remains a possibility, Howard. Is inference > safe from these? I would suggest that the Buddha's wise injunction > for verification is a safeguard against reaching the wrong > conclusion. Further, logic would seem relatively safer than > inference from myth, don't you agree? _____________ The Buddha often came across skeptics who doubted or wondered whether there were past or future lives and if there was such a thing as kamma. He said: "A wise man reflects, if there is no other world, these good persons will be well and good after death. However, if there is another world, after death they would go to decrease, to hell. If there is the other world, these good persons will have unlucky throws on both sides. The wise will blame them here and now, they will decrease in virtues and be born in hell after death. Thus if this pervading teaching [about kamma and its results] is observed, it pervades both sides and neglects the side of demerit. "" http://www.abhidhamma.org/majjhima%2060.htm Thus for those who are still in the very dangerous position of doubting kamma and its results the Buddha encouraged them to take a positive view that because it may be true they should think and behave as it if is true. However for those who already accepted the Buddha as their teacher he strongly encouraged them to accept his words as the truth: http://www.abhidhamma.org/anguttara_nikaya_iii.htm `Monks, I proclaim Dhamma with full comprehension, not without full comprehension. I proclaim Dhamma with causal connexions, not without. I proclaim Dhamma accompanied by wonders, not without wonders. Since I do so there is good reason why I should admonish, there is good reason why I should instruct. Well may ye be glad. Well may ye be satisfied. Well may ye be pleased at the thought: Perfectly enlightened is the Exalted One. Well taught by the Exalted One is Dhamma. Well conducted is the Order.' So spake the Exalted One." ________ > > > Robert, thank you for a very useful second message, which logically > explained your answers to my questions. > > RK: >Dharam you asked: ""Why should we be concerned with concepts > such as 'punishment' for the old farmer for past misdeeds?"" > Often in the suttas the Buddha teaches the Dhamma in conventional > terms (vohara vacana) and so refers to human beings and animals etc. > Certainly, as you realise, these have no reality and are merely > concepts used for convenience. In the case of such terms as > punishment (unpleasant result) we know that in the true sense there > is no one who receives results but that results arise by > conditions: From the Visuddhimagga 172"Experiencer is a convention > for mere arising of fruit (vipaka);" > And Vis. XIX20 "There is no doer of a deed Or one who reaps the deeds > result: Phenomena alone flow on- No other view than this is right." > This is basic Dhamma and I am glad you bought it up as otherwise we > might turn away from the stories in the Dhammapada of Jataka > > commentaries not realising their profundity. > > D: Again, he tailored the prescription to the requirements of the > listener. I just think that we should then, be consistent is > explicitly saying that sentient beings are concepts. Therefore, > why be concerned whether 'bad' kamma has come back to cause a certain > vipaka for a certain individual (or group as in the case of 9-11 > victims). Isn't this speculation fruitless, at least at this stage? ______________ Personally I seldom think about the vipaka of others. However, if we do find ourselves wondering about such matters then if we have faith in kamma and vipaka we will believe any instance of unpleasant or pleasant result as simply the lawful workings of the Dhamma. If we don't have faith in kamma we will speculate that it is by accident, or if if we believe in God think it 'an act of God'. So whenever we think about such matters we will speculate, either wisely or unwisely: the Buddha encouraged the speculation in wise ways as we see in the sutta above. A couple of years ago I was listening to Acharn Sujin talking to a group of Thai people who were asking about some deaths caused by floods in the south of Thailand. they were upset over it and feeling great pity for the people who had died. Sujin said people are up so compassionate to those who suffer but what about when they read about a criminal in the newspaper- do they have the same compassion to him? Because in the future his ill deeds will bring their painful result. Nina translated the commentary to a sutta the Buddha gave to Rahula. And it said that the Buddha had exactly the same love and compassion to Devadatta - who tried many times to kill him- as he did to his own son Rahula. We are on the road to developing that same wisdom when we - as you suggest- realize that beings are concepts and that only elements arise and cease. The understanding of anatta is the same as understanding conditions which include kamma. For us when we think about 9/11 do we feel equal pity for the people who planned and committed the atrocity? Such actions bring severe vipaka . ________ > > RK: >Indeed you write: > "How is the seeming attention paid to mythical issues consistent > with the expectation that we should test any teaching against > reality? [The stories of the farmer, Maha Mogallana etc. and > references to devas etc.]" > In part I think this is answered above but to clarify further. We may > think of devas and such as mythical but the greatest myth is the idea > that `we' exist now. Thus when I read the Dhammapada or the Jataka I > look at it in this way, which is also the way that life is here and > now. The Abhidhamma- which should inform our understanding whenever > we consider- shows us that what we thought were trees and people and > animals and devas even ourself are only conditioned, evanescent > aggregates (khandas). I think knowing this we read the story in a > different way: That it is that the story is an illustration of the > workings of conditionality, especially that condition called kamma. > > D: You may be correct here. I have to say however, that these > illustrations are more of a distraction, forcing our minds to > consider concepts that do not necessarily lead to better > understanding ( at least at my superficial level ). This is > exemplified in other concurrent threads that display anguish possibly > arising from the 'realness' of these types of concepts. Why not be Ø consistent, and concentrate on just the present? Because some of the conditions for the present moment were made in the past. And as the Visuddhimagga says "the succession of kamma and its result can be known in part by one practising insight" Vis. Xix17 >________________________ > >Robert: No control and powerlessness is the sign of anatta. And again this > relates to right insight into the present moment. Someone with wrong > understanding will try to control or change the present moment rather > than insighting it as it is now, rather than understanding the > > conditionality of each moment. > > D: Exactly. That is why it is somewhat confusing to see the > concern about the effects of kamma, they will presumably roll on > uncontrolled. Concentrating on the moment, should remove > consideration of the causes of, or results of kamma, or have I Ø misunderstood this? +++++++++++++++ It all rolls on uncontrolled by any self but utterly by conditions, not randomness. So any act rooted in greed , or delusion or aversion will if supported by other conditions, bring an unpleasant result sometime in the future, this life, next life or subsequent lives. It is the law of nature. -------------- My > concern is of misunderstanding a sutta reference without the type of > excellent logical interpretation that you have given above. It is > a reminder to caution, especially for mythological references. [I do > not put other suttas, such as the formiddable Upanissa sutta in the > same category.] > ----------------------- I would be careful about assuming we understand a sutta. I have seen extreme misinterpretations of the Upanisa sutta and almost every other sutta about dependent origination. Someone can read it with the idea that they exist and they can make suffering cease by effort. Whearas the whole method of dependent origination is to show that there is no self and that only natural conditions arise and cease and that ignorance of this very fact perpetuates samsara. ________ > Thank you Robert K. and everyone else for a stimulating, and very > useful discussion. Ø __________ Thank you Dharam. The Dhamma explains everything, For example you consider carefully. Why do you have that ability- not everyone does? It is because of the various complex conditions – profoundly explained by the Buddha in the Patthana- which are accumulated, no Dharam. RobertK 19935 From: smallchap Date: Fri Feb 28, 2003 7:35am Subject: [dsg] Re: vipassana Dear Nina, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom > N: From moment to moment, this is not sure; panna at that level begins to > understand more the three characteristics. Since there is more detachment > panna can see the dissolution of realities. All this is because of > conditions. There is also right effort, but no self, it is a cetasika > performing its function. No need to think of effort. S: Thank you very much for your wise words. I am sure I will ask for more. I realize too that some terms used in the English translation of The Path of Discrimination are somewhat unconventional. >N: Sankharupekkha: See Path of Purification, p. 61-63, and Buddhist Dictionary, > p. 149, and p. 181, S: The Buddhist Dictionary I owned is the 4th edition. Sankharupekkha is explained in p.201. >N: under Visuddhi: no 6,7,8: Desire for Deliverance, > Reflecting Contemplation and Equanimity for the conditioned realities, > sankhara dhammas are actually the same. Insight, shortly before adaptation > (anuloma and gotrabhu, change of lineage when the process begins during > which enlightenment occurs). Here insight is turning away from sankhara > dhammas and inclining towards the uncondiitoned dhamma. The Path of > Discrimination mentions: seeing formations (sankhara dhammas) as > impermanent, dukkha, non-self. And a warning: when an ordinary person, and > even a trainer (sekha, who is an ariyan but not yet arahat) delights in > equanimity about sankhara dhammas, he defiles his cognizance, and that is an > obstacle to development. > Thus we see, even at such an advanced stage there are still pitfalls. I am > surprised by this text myself. A good warning, isn't it? S: I belive this pitfall is easily overcomed by being prompted to continue contemplating of anicca, dukkha or anatta. At this stage, nibhana is within reach. See Vis XXI 64 - 65. May you attain your aspiration. smallchap back to my lurking mode. 19936 From: robmoult Date: Fri Feb 28, 2003 7:46am Subject: Re:(3) Anattta and Kamma and Conventional Events(? at end) Hi Shakti, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Deanna Shakti Johnson wrote: After reading the above I was reminded of what I thought I heard Ajahn Sujin say while I was in Bangkok. This is how I remember it - The experience of the five senses at contact with an object are always a neutral experience, when an object is perceived at the mind door it can be either pleasant, unpleasant or neutral and finally physical feeling is always only pleasant or unpleasant. Is this correct? I can understand the initial neutral experience as being neutral and then the mind door process that follows being pleasant, unpleasant or neutral but I am not clear about the physical being only pleasant or unpleasant. Why no neutral here??? Can you or anyone give some examples about this. There are five types of feeling that result from contact: - Painful body feeling with akusala vipaka body-consciousness - Pleasurable body feeling with kusala vipaka body-consciousness - Painful mental feeling arising with two dosa-mula cittas - Pleasant mental feeling arising with four lobha-mula cittas, one type of investigating consciousness, the smile producing citta in an Arahant, four sense-sphere wholesome cittas, four wholesome vipaka cittas (bhavanga cittas), four wholesome kiriya cittas (in Arahants) - Mental indifference arising with all other cittas Contact in eye-consciousness, ear-consciousness, nose-consciousness and tongue-consciousness cittas always produces indifferent feeling while contact in akusala body-consciousness citta produces painful feeling and contact in kusala body-consciousness citta produces pleasurable feeling. The commentary (Atthasalini, I believe) explains that body contact only produces pain or pleasure because of the "violence of the impact". The following analogy is given: Imagine that we have five anvils with a cotton ball on each. The cotton balls represent eye, ear, nose, tongue and body sensitivity. - In the first four cases, the cotton ball on the anvil is struck by another cotton ball; visible object, sound, odour and taste. In the first four cases, the anvil does cannot detect the striking and no feeling arises. - The cotton ball of body sensitivity is struck by a hammer of touch. In this case, the anvil detects the striking and the feeling is either painful or pleasurable. Feeling arising with body- consciousness can only be painful or pleasurable, never neutral. In this analogy, the anvil and the hammer are "primary rupas", while the cotton balls are "derived rupas". Contact resulting from coinciding of touch (hardness, temperature and pressure), body-sensitivity and body-consciousness will cause either a pleasurable or a painful feeling to arise. Pleasure is kusala vipaka; the result of past kusala action. Citta with pleasure is not inherently good, it is the result of something good done in the past. A sense-door citta-process in which body- consciousness experiences pleasure is invariably followed by multiple mind-door citta-processes which "think about" the experience. When the senses are not guarded, there is attachment, craving or clinging to the pleasurable experience. The pleasurable experience has finished, but the unguarded mind chases after it. Pain is akusala vipaka; the result of past akusala action. Citta with pain is not inherently bad, it is the result of something bad done in the past. A sense-door citta-process in which body- consciousness experiences pain is invariably followed by multiple mind-door citta-processes which "think about" the experience. When the senses are not guarded, there is aversion to the painful experience. The painful experience has finished, but the unguarded mind still runs away from it. All other sense-consciousness cittas arise with indifferent feeling. A sense-door citta-process is invariably followed by multiple mind- door citta-processes which "think about" the experience. When the senses are not guarded, there is attachment or aversion to the sense- door object. The sense-door experience has finished, but the unguarded mind still chases after it or runs away from it. In English, the term "feeling" is often associated with "emotions". In Abhidhamma, "emotions" are lobha-mula and dosa-mula cittas; very different from the cetasika vedana. Unlike contact arising from body-sensitivity, contact arising from eye-sensitivity, ear-sensitivity, nose-sensitivity and tongue- sensitivity will always cause an indifferent feeling to arise. Contact with mental objects (ideas) results in: - Pleasant feeling (four lobha-mula cittas, one investigating citta, Arahant smile-producing citta, twelve beautiful cittas) - Unpleasant feeling (both dosa-mula cittas) - Indifferent feeling (all remaining cittas) The kammic weight of a citta depends on the intensity of volition. Cittas with pleasant feeling (both lobha-mula cittas and beautiful cittas) are more intense and therefore of greater kammic weight than similar cittas with indifferent feeling. Weighty kusala cittas (i.e. those with pleasant feeling) are very beneficial, but what are the conditions which cause them to arise? Kusala cittas with pleasant feeling arise when there is abundance of confidence (saddha), purity of views and seeing advantage in kusala. Lobha-mula cittas can be accompanied by pleasant or indifferent feeling: - When we are excited about getting something, there is pleasant feeling - When we are clinging to existence or simply looking for a pen, there is indifferent feeling The study of feelings is very important. Feeling is the weakest link in the chain of dependent origination; the bifurcation point at which we can break the chain. The transition from Feeling (a natural, objective occurrence) to Craving (our subjective reaction to feeling) is the transition from present effect (what happens to us) to present cause (creation of kamma). There is an excellent short essay on feeling with many quotes from Suttas at: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/wheels/wheel303.html Shakti, I hope that this answers your question on feeling. Metta, Rob M :-) 19937 From: nidive Date: Fri Feb 28, 2003 9:33am Subject: Re: Comfort Hi RobertK, > Could you elaborate more on why you think a person must believe in > control and directing of mind states if one is to avoid going to the > woeful realms. Control and directing of mind states is not a belief. The fact that you are responding to my post in a coherent manner shows that there is control and directing of mind states. One overshoots what is accepted by the world when one says there is no control and directing of mind states. There is control and directing of mind states, yet this control and this directing is not-self. This control and this directing must be realized as not-self. If there is no control and directing of mind states, then everything that one experiences must be conditioned by the past. What about the present moment? "Having approached the priests & contemplatives who hold that... whatever a person experiences... is all caused by what was done in the past,' I said to them: 'Is it true that you hold that... whatever a person experiences... is all caused by what was done in the past?' Thus asked by me, they admitted, 'Yes.' Then I said to them, 'Then in that case, a person is a killer of living beings because of what was done in the past. A person is a thief... unchaste... a liar... a divisive speaker... an abusive speaker... an idle chatterer... covetous... malevolent... a holder of wrong views because of what was done in the past.' When one falls back on what was done in the past as being essential, monks, there is no desire, no effort [at the thought], 'This should be done. This shouldn't be done.' When one can't pin down as a truth or reality what should & shouldn't be done, one dwells bewildered & unprotected. One cannot righteously refer to oneself as a contemplative... http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/study/kamma.html -- AN III.61 A person is not a killer, a thief, a liar, etc. by virtue of his past accumulations as being essential. A person is not a non-killer, a non-thief, a non-liar, etc. by virtue of his past accumulations as being essential. If one relies on one's past accumulations as being essential, then there is no desire and no effort to decide if this or that should or should not be done. In the same way, if one relies on one's past accumulations of panna as being essential to achieve Sotapanna Enlightenment, then there is no desire and no effort at the thought "This must be done this lifetime. There is no time for delaying.". A person who says there is no control and no directing of mind states certainly holds wrong views. If this is not corrected, the bad destinations await him. "When the mind was thus concentrated... & attained to imperturbability, I directed it to the knowledge of the passing away & reappearance of beings. I saw -- by means of the divine eye, purified & surpassing the human -- beings passing away & re- appearing, and I discerned how they are inferior & superior, beautiful & ugly, fortunate & unfortunate in accordance with their kamma: 'These beings -- who were endowed with bad conduct of body, speech & mind, who reviled the Noble Ones, held wrong views and undertook actions under the influence of wrong views -- with the break-up of the body, after death, have re-appeared in the plane of deprivation, the bad destination, the lower realms, in hell. But these beings -- who were endowed with good conduct of body, speech, & mind, who did not revile the Noble Ones, who held right views and undertook actions under the influence of right views -- with the break-up of the body, after death, have re-appeared in the good destinations, in the heavenly world.' Thus -- by means of the divine eye, purified & surpassing the human -- I saw beings passing away & re-appearing, and I discerned how they are inferior & superior, beautiful & ugly, fortunate & unfortunate in accordance with their kamma. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/study/kamma.html -- MN 19 > You do realise that khanika samadhi(momentary concentration) arises > with both kusala and akusala states? What makes you think that insight and calm can arise during akusala states? Regards, NEO Swee Boon 19938 From: nidive Date: Fri Feb 28, 2003 10:16am Subject: [dsg] Re: Comfort Hi Mike, > I think some direct textual support for this specific statement would be very > useful. "And how is right view the forerunner? One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view. And what is wrong view? 'There is nothing given, nothing offered, nothing sacrificed. There is no fruit or result of good or bad actions. There is no this world, no next world, no mother, no father, no spontaneously reborn beings; no priests or contemplatives who, faring rightly & practicing rightly, proclaim this world & the next after having directly known & realized it for themselves.' This is wrong view. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/study/kamma.html -- MN 117 "When the mind was thus concentrated... & attained to imperturbability, I directed it to the knowledge of the passing away & reappearance of beings. I saw -- by means of the divine eye, purified & surpassing the human -- beings passing away & re- appearing, and I discerned how they are inferior & superior, beautiful & ugly, fortunate & unfortunate in accordance with their kamma: 'These beings -- who were endowed with bad conduct of body, speech & mind, who reviled the Noble Ones, held wrong views and undertook actions under the influence of wrong views -- with the break-up of the body, after death, have re-appeared in the plane of deprivation, the bad destination, the lower realms, in hell. But these beings -- who were endowed with good conduct of body, speech, & mind, who did not revile the Noble Ones, who held right views and undertook actions under the influence of right views -- with the break-up of the body, after death, have re-appeared in the good destinations, in the heavenly world.' Thus -- by means of the divine eye, purified & surpassing the human -- I saw beings passing away & re-appearing, and I discerned how they are inferior & superior, beautiful & ugly, fortunate & unfortunate in accordance with their kamma. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/study/kamma.html -- MN 19 > This sounds to me like a false dilemma; more properly one could say: > To say that there is a self that controls or directs the mind states > is one extreme. > To say that there is a no self that controls or directs the mind states > is another extreme. > or that > To say that there is control or directing of mind states is > one extreme. > To say that there is no control or directing of mind states is > another extreme. This is not a false dilemma. It is incorrect to say that there is a self that controls or directs the mind states. It is correct to say that there is no self that controls or directs the mind states. Is it correct to say that there is control or directing of mind states. Is it incorrect to say that there is no control or directing of mind states. > Could you please offer a citation from the texts in which anatta is explained > as 'in the middle' (afraid I'm very rusty!)--thanks. By 'in the middle', I mean that this control and this direction of mind states is not-self. It is not that there is no control and no direction, but rather this control and this direction is not-self. When one sees correctly this control and this direction as not-self, the view "there is a self that controls or directs" is dispelled. When one sees correctly this control and this direction as not-self, the view "there is no control or directing" is dispelled. When one sees correctly thus, non-selfness is understood as 'in the middle'. Is this control and this direction permanent? Does it exist forever? Is it eternal? That this is what I am? Nay. Then does this control and this direction not exist? Nay. "By & large, Kaccayana, this world is supported by (takes as its object) a polarity, that of existence & non-existence. But when one sees the origination of the world as it actually is with right discernment, 'non-existence' with reference to the world does not occur to one. When one sees the cessation of the world as it actually is with right discernment, 'existence' with reference to the world does not occur to one. "By & large, Kaccayana, this world is in bondage to attachments, clingings (sustenances), & biases. But one such as this does not get involved with or cling to these attachments, clingings, fixations of awareness, biases, or obsessions; nor is he resolved on 'my self.' He has no uncertainty or doubt that, when there is arising, only stress is arising; and that when there is passing away, only stress is passing away. In this, one's knowledge is independent of others. It is to this extent, Kaccayana, that there is right view. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn12-015.html Regards, NEO Swee Boon 19939 From: nidive Date: Fri Feb 28, 2003 10:25am Subject: [dsg] Re: Comfort Hi Howard, > Almost every living human being holds one of these extreme views, > usually the first. Surely they held their view in their precious > life as well. So .. how did they ever get here???? Sheer coincidence with supporting kusala vipaka. I have wondered about how many ants are there living on this Earth. Then I can calculate the figure for this "sheer coincidence" to derive some probability statistics. human status == sheer coincidence buddha == sheer coincidence buddha's teachings == sheer coincidence sheer coincidence * sheer coincidence * sheer coincidence = ??? Regards, NEO Swee Boon 19940 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Feb 28, 2003 10:38am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:the blind Turtle, comfort. Dear Kom, what you write, also about kalyana puthujana, is very helpful, I appreciate your post so much, Nina. op 27-02-2003 09:22 schreef Kom Tukovinit op kom@a...: >> Kom's feelings about this? What impact did you feel, Kom? > > Whenever I hear such teachings, I sometimes feel anxious, > although not for a long time. I also feel immense > appreciation that there is such a person who would urge us > on to be diligent, to have patience, to have spiritual > urgency, to be true to developing wisdom and all other > kusala states, in order to reach the far side. Before we > read the sutta, we may be forgetful, but after reading the > sutta, there may be conditions for mindfulness, at different > levels to arise. Having good friends who remind us, who > teach us, who urges us on is most precious. > > 19941 From: rjkjp1 Date: Fri Feb 28, 2003 11:06am Subject: Re: Comfort In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "nidive " wrote: > > __________________ > Control and directing of mind states is not a belief. > The fact that you are responding to my post in a coherent manner > shows that there is control and directing of mind states. > One overshoots what is accepted by the world when one says there is > no control and directing of mind states. > There is control and directing of mind states, yet this control and > this directing is not-self. This control and this directing must be > realized as not-self. > If there is no control and directing of mind states, then everything > that one experiences must be conditioned by the past. What about the > present moment? > > > A person who says there is no control and no directing of mind > states certainly holds wrong views. If this is not corrected, the > bad destinations await him. > _______________________ Dear Ndive, By mind states I assume you mean citta and the other mental factors. Is citta able to be controlled? Can we direct it to do this or that? ________________________________ >> > >Robert: You do realise that khanika samadhi(momentary concentration) > arises > > with both kusala and akusala states? > ____________ > What makes you think that insight and calm can arise during akusala > states? > __________________ I didn't say that it could. But khanika samadhi is arising all the time, whether with kusala or akusala cittas. RobertK 19942 From: Date: Fri Feb 28, 2003 8:13am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Comfort Hi, Swee Boon - In a message dated 2/28/03 1:26:03 PM Eastern Standard Time, nidive@y... writes: > Hi Howard, > > >Almost every living human being holds one of these extreme views, > >usually the first. Surely they held their view in their precious > >life as well. So .. how did they ever get here???? > > Sheer coincidence with supporting kusala vipaka. > > I have wondered about how many ants are there living on this Earth. > Then I can calculate the figure for this "sheer coincidence" to > derive some probability statistics. > > human status == sheer coincidence > buddha == sheer coincidence > buddha's teachings == sheer coincidence > > sheer coincidence * sheer coincidence * sheer coincidence = ??? > > Regards, > NEO Swee Boon > > ============================= I'm sorry, I don't understand you. Firstly, what do you mean by "sheer coincidence"? Surely one's realm of birth is kamma vipaka. Also, my point was that you had maintained that those beings with atta view (and no-control-at-all view) go to woeful realms, but that contradicts all the human beings on this planet who should not have gotten here! It seems to me to be an outright contradiction. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 19943 From: connie Date: Fri Feb 28, 2003 2:27pm Subject: a quantum view of free will Friends of the rat who might be interested in another theory of consciousness ~ Our amazing lab rat, whilst meditating on the absurdities of being in any way related to the foolish three blind mice, nonetheless found itself warping through one of the inevitable worm holes and landed with such force on theoretical physicist Matti Pitakanen's http://blues.helsinki.fi/~matpitka that the half chewed pellet fell out of it's mouth. There, the rat found a theory of Topological Geometrodynamics, "an attempt to unify fundamental interactions by assuming that physical spacetimes can be regarded as submanifolds of certain 8-dimensional space". Holy kalapa, sniffed our whiskered friend, that might help explain why the estimated order of magnitude of the number of moments of consciousness per unit time given by the Buddhists agrees with that obtained from Penrose-Hameroff theory, not that the rat has a clue what P-H theory, density matrix eigenstates or future light cones entail, but there are always quantum leaps of imagination. At which thought, the rat's eyes lit upon an explanation that "Each quantum jump in the endless sequence of quantum jumps corresponds to different "I" with its own memories and plans of future. "Me" is just God at this moment, or "Now". "You" is just "Me" at different moment. Since the continuous personal existence is an illusion there is no Death. Personal 'Me' dies and is reborn, when this God decides to look somewhere else. Or 'I' destroys the old world and creates a new one like in a dance of Shiva. Brahman=Atman identity means the realization of this arbitrariness and the next step is to realize that there is no Atman nor any Brahman!" The rat stifled a snicker as Matti led a student into the room explaining that "standard quantum measurement theory is a prediction of TGD and relates very closely with consciousness. In a similar manner, the generalization of quantum hologram principle is equally crucial for quantum TGD as it is for TGD inspired theory of consciousness. Furthermore, the states of supercanonical representations are genuine quantum gravitational states (state functionals in the 'world of worlds'). Hence they correspond to higher level of abstraction than ordinary quantum states and are natural correlates of brain consciousness. So called massless extremals (MEs) carrying these supercanonical representations seem to be for consciousness what hydrogen atom is for atomic physics." At that, the rat grabbed up the rest of the pellet and the edge of a drifting mindlike spacetime sheet and disappeared back into the maze. By the way, Sarah, it is said that "living organisms become in TGD Universe essentially objects of astrophysical size", so it seems reasonable that Buddha did possess more than just Towering Wisdom. peace, connie 19944 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Fri Feb 28, 2003 4:13pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Comfort Swee Boon In a post to Christine you said: > Nevertheless, the Mundane Eightfold Path still needs to precede the > Noble Eightfold Path. Personally I think the eight factors are > developed in tandem and not separately. I don't think it is > designed such that the factors are to be developed separately. I agree with this obsevation (except that, to my reading, the mundane path comprises only 5 of the 8 factors; the whole 8 factors arise together only at supramundane 8-fold path moment). To my understading, this means that the various factors of the 8-fold path are developed by the very fact of the arising of the mundane path, and this would include concentration as well. So when you said (earlier in the same post)... > I also think that a certain level of momentary concentration is > necessary for there to be deeper insights than those produced by > shallow mindfulness. If one does not develop momentary > concentration > well, one will be stuck in these shallow insights without further > progress. ... I would like to suggest that the momentary concentration arises and is developed at each mundane path moment. Jon 19945 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Fri Feb 28, 2003 4:20pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Kamma and Conventional Events: A Brief Comment Rob M Thanks very much for this. I am not at all sure of the answer here, and am hoping someone will come in with a definitive reference. What I am clear in my own mind about is that kamma is not being 'committed' all the time, in the sense of the normal everyday lobha (and dosa) being a condition for vipaka cittas. Jon --- "robmoult " wrote: > Hi Jon, > > I'm in Florida, so I don't have my books with me either. The only > use of the term "patha" in Nyanatiloka is: > > ====== > > kamma-patha: 'course of action', is a name for the group of 10 > kinds > of either unwholesome or wholesome actions, viz. > > I. The tenfold unwholesome courses of action (akusala-kamma-patha): > > 3 bodily actions: killing, stealing, unlawful sexual intercourse; > > 4 verbal actions: lying, slandering, rude speech, foolish babble; > > 3 mental actions: covetousness, ill-will, evil views. > > Unwholesome mental courses of action comprise only extreme forms of > > defiled thought: the greedy wish to appropriate others' property, > the hateful thought of harming others, and pernicious views. Milder > > forms of mental defilement are also unwholesome, but do not > constitute 'courses of action'. > > II. The tenfold wholesome course of action (kusala-kamma-patha): > > 3 bodily actions: avoidance of killing, stealing, unlawful sexual > intercourse; > > 4 verbal actions: avoidance of lying, slandering, rude speech, > foolish babble; i.e. true, conciliatory, mild, and wise speech; > > 3 mental actions: unselfishness, good-will, right views. > > Both lists occur repeatedly, e.g. in A. X, 28, 176; M. 9; they are > explained in detail in M. 114, and in Com. to M. 9 (R. Und., p. > 14), > Atthasálini Tr. I, 126ff. > > ===== > > It is my understanding that these are actions which, when complete > (kamma-patha) can cause rebirth either in a woeful state (in the > case of akusala kamma patha) or in a human/deva/brahma realm (in > the > case of kusala kamma patha). In other words, kamma-patha is only > relevant at the time of rebirth-linking. > > I did not think that kamma-patha had anything to do with the vipaka > cittas that arise during a lifetime, such as the ones which > condition a visible object to arise at the eye door. > > Anybody have any opinions? > > Metta, > Rob M :-) 19946 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Fri Feb 28, 2003 4:36pm Subject: Re: [dsg] (4) Pannatta As A Vehicle Howard (and Htoo) --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Htoo - > > In the following you ask "Could you explain more clearly how > Pannatti > does arise and how it passess away?" No, I don't think I can. I > don't quite > understand what you are asking for. When I think of a tree, that is > the > arising of the concept 'tree', and when I cease to think of it, > that is the > ceasing of hat concept. It is just the same as when I experience > hardness, > that is the arising of the rupa of hardness, and when I cease to > experience > it, that is the cessation of it. When I become a better > vipassanika, perhaps > I will be better able to answer you. > > With metta, > Howard Not that I am claiming to be any kind of vipassanika, but I think there is clearly a difference between the 2 instances you cite here. When we think of anything (whether a tree or hardness), the object of consciousness at that moment is purely mind-created. It may refer to a dhamma or to another concept, but this does not mean that the thought itself shares any of the characteristics of what is being conceptualised about. When hardness is experienced (as it is at the present moment), the object of consciousness is a dhamma. That dhamma must have arisen in order for it to become the object of consciousness at that moment. This is my understanding of the explanation given in the texts (I am not claiming verification by direct experience ;-).) Jon 19947 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Fri Feb 28, 2003 4:39pm Subject: Re: [dsg] concept and insight Nina Sorry, I don't really have anything to add on this, but would be happy to bring it up on the next Bangkok visit. Jon --- nina van gorkom wrote: > Dear Jon, > In Bgk we learnt that at the second stage of insight even the space > in > between tiny groups of rupa can be discerned. I understand, because > how > otherwise could groups be distinguished. Still,I cannot help > thinking : In > that case, when touching hardness one could experience through the > bodysense > different groups of rupa. I have a kind of wrong imagination, > because it is > panna that knows characteristics after touching. I know the answer: > when > time comes... And as A. Sujin said, we do not have to think of > groups. > Still, I would like your opinion, and could you bring it up again > in Bgk? I > found it a difficult subject. > Thank you, > Nina. > > > > > > 19948 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Fri Feb 28, 2003 4:42pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:the blind Turtle, comfort. Kom My thanks also for this detail. I think Rob K may have mentioned this point before, in answer to a post of mine, but it's not something one comes across readily in the English translations, for some reason. Jon --- nina van gorkom wrote: > Dear Kom, what you write, also about kalyana puthujana, is very > helpful, I > appreciate your post so much, > Nina. > > op 27-02-2003 09:22 schreef Kom Tukovinit op kom@a...: > >> Kom's feelings about this? What impact did you feel, Kom? > > > > Whenever I hear such teachings, I sometimes feel anxious, > > although not for a long time. I also feel immense > > appreciation that there is such a person who would urge us > > on to be diligent, to have patience, to have spiritual > > urgency, to be true to developing wisdom and all other > > kusala states, in order to reach the far side. Before we > > read the sutta, we may be forgetful, but after reading the > > sutta, there may be conditions for mindfulness, at different > > levels to arise. Having good friends who remind us, who > > teach us, who urges us on is most precious. > > > > > > > > > > 19949 From: Date: Fri Feb 28, 2003 0:19pm Subject: What a Difference One Letter Makes (Re: [dsg] Re: Comfort) Hi, Swee Boon - In a message dated 2/27/03 2:42:51 PM Eastern Standard Time, upasaka@a... writes: > > > >A person who holds either extreme view goes to the woeful realms. > > > ---------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Almost every living human being holds one of these extreme views, > usually the first. Surely they held their view in their precious life as > well. So .. how did they ever get here???? > > =============================== The word 'precious', which indeed well describes human life, was intended to be 'previous'! ;-)) Sorry about that. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 19950 From: Date: Fri Feb 28, 2003 0:37pm Subject: Re: [dsg] (4) Pannatta As A Vehicle Hi, Jon - In a message dated 2/28/03 7:37:07 PM Eastern Standard Time, jonoabb@y... writes: > Howard (and Htoo) > > --- upasaka@a... wrote: >Hi, Htoo - > > > > In the following you ask "Could you explain more clearly how > >Pannatti > >does arise and how it passess away?" No, I don't think I can. I > >don't quite > >understand what you are asking for. When I think of a tree, that is > >the > >arising of the concept 'tree', and when I cease to think of it, > >that is the > >ceasing of hat concept. It is just the same as when I experience > >hardness, > >that is the arising of the rupa of hardness, and when I cease to > >experience > >it, that is the cessation of it. When I become a better > >vipassanika, perhaps > >I will be better able to answer you. > > > >With metta, > >Howard > > > Not that I am claiming to be any kind of vipassanika, but I think > there is clearly a difference between the 2 instances you cite here. > > When we think of anything (whether a tree or hardness), the object of > consciousness at that moment is purely mind-created. It may refer to > a dhamma or to another concept, but this does not mean that the > thought itself shares any of the characteristics of what is being > conceptualised about. > > When hardness is experienced (as it is at the present moment), the > object of consciousness is a dhamma. That dhamma must have arisen in > order for it to become the object of consciousness at that moment. > ----------------------------------------------------- Howard: I basically agree with you, Jon. What you are raising here, however, isn't the issue at hand. The issue was that concepts, like all conditioned things, arise and pass away. That was all I was discussing. --------------------------------------------------- > > This is my understanding of the explanation given in the texts (I am > not claiming verification by direct experience ;-).) > > Jon > ============================= With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 19951 From: nidive Date: Fri Feb 28, 2003 5:38pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Comfort Hi Howard, > I'm sorry, I don't understand you. Firstly, what do you mean by "sheer > coincidence"? Surely one's realm of birth is kamma vipaka. > Also, my point was that you had maintained that those beings with atta > view (and no-control-at-all view) go to woeful realms, but that contradicts > all the human beings on this planet who should not have gotten here! It seems > to me to be an outright contradiction. Why should it be? Don't you produce kusala kamma in this life as well? I think we produce much more akusala kamma than we produce kusala kamma. Regards, NEO Swee Boon 19952 From: rjkjp1 Date: Fri Feb 28, 2003 5:39pm Subject: Re:(3) Anattta and Kamma and Conventional Events(? at end) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Deanna Shakti Johnson wrote: > > After reading the above I was reminded of what I thought I heard Ajahn Sujin say while I was in Bangkok. This is how I remember it - The experience of the five senses at contact with an object are always a neutral experience, when an object is perceived at the mind door it can be either pleasant, unpleasant or neutral and finally physical feeling is always only pleasant or unpleasant. Is this correct? I can understand the initial neutral experience as being neutral and then the mind door process that follows being pleasant, unpleasant or neutral but I am not clear about the physical being only pleasant or unpleasant. Why no neutral here??? Can you or anyone give some examples about this. > > Thank you to everyone for their interesting posts. As I travel alot I don't seem to have much time to post but read when I find sometime. I appreciate your comments as they give me much to reflect on. Thanks, Shakti >____________________________ Dear Shakti, Good to hear from you. Those photos I took of us in bangkok came out good but seem to have been wiped off my camera . RobM gave a comprehensive answer. I just follow with some quotes from Nina's book; http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas4.html "The Paramattha Manjusa, a commentary to the Visuddhimagga (XIV, note 56) explains why kaya-vinnana is accompanied by either pleasant feeling or unpleasant feeling. This is because of the 'violence of the impact's blow '; there is the direct impact of tangible object on the bodysense. Tangible objects which are experienced through the rupa which is the bodysense are the following rupas: soIidity, appearing as hardness or softness, temperature, appearing as heat or cold, and motion, appearing as oscillation or pressure. By way of a simile the difference is explained between the impact of tangible object on the bodysense and the impact of the other sense objects on the relevant senses. When a man places cottonwool on an anvil and strikes it with an iron hammer, the hammer goes right through the cottonwool because of the violence of the impact. In the case, however, of the other panca-vinnanas, the impact is gentle, like the contact between two pieces of cottonwool. Thus, they are accompanied by indifferent feeling. The 'impact' of visible object on the eye- sense is gentle when compared with the direct physical contact of tangible object with the bodysense. We may believe that bodily feeling can be indifferent, but this is not so. The moment of body- consciousness (kaya-vinnana) is extremely short; it is only one moment of vipaka and after it has fallen away akusala cittas or kusala cittas arise. Body-consciousness Is accompanied either by pleasant bodily feeling or by painful bodily feeling. The akusala cittas or kusala cittas which arise shortly afterwards are accompanied by feelings which are different from bodily feeling. They can be accompanied by happy feeling, unhappy feeling or indifferent feeling. " RobertK 19953 From: nidive Date: Fri Feb 28, 2003 6:23pm Subject: Re: Comfort Hi RobertK, > By mind states I assume you mean citta and the other mental factors. > Is citta able to be controlled? Can we direct it to do this or that? It is not "we" that direct it to do this or that. Cittas and cetasikas direct themselves. You are not different from these cittas and cetasikas. You are these cittas and cetasikas. If "you" are these cittas and cetasikas, is there a self that directs? If "you" are these cittas and cetasikas, is there then no direction? If there is no self that directs and there is no direction, then nobody can compose a coherent message, by virtue of the assumption that cittas and cetasikas cannot direct themselves. > I didn't say that it could. But khanika samadhi is arising all the > time, whether with kusala or akusala cittas. I don't think momentary concentration that arises with akusala cittas is Right Concentration. It cannot lead to insight and calm. "Before my self-awakening, when I was still just an unawakened Bodhisatta, the thought occurred to me: 'Why don't I keep dividing my thinking into two classes?' So I made thinking imbued with sensuality, thinking imbued with malevolence, & thinking imbued with harmfulness one class, and thinking imbued with renunciation, thinking imbued with non-malevolence, & thinking imbued with harmlessness another class. "And as I remained thus heedful, ardent, & resolute, thinking imbued with sensuality arose. I discerned that 'Thinking imbued with sensuality has arisen in me; and that leads to my own affliction or to the affliction of others or to the affliction of both. It obstructs discernment, promotes vexation, & does not lead to Unbinding.' "As I noticed that it leads to my own affliction, it subsided. As I noticed that it leads to the affliction of others... to the affliction of both... it obstructs discernment, promotes vexation, & does not lead to Unbinding, it subsided. Whenever thinking imbued with sensuality had arisen, I simply abandoned it, destroyed it, dispelled it, wiped it out of existence. (Similarly with thinking imbued with malevolence & harmfulness.) -- MN 19 Regards, NEO Swee Boon 19954 From: nidive Date: Fri Feb 28, 2003 6:36pm Subject: What a Difference One Letter Makes (Re: [dsg] Re: Comfort) Hi Howard, > The word 'precious', which indeed well describes human life, was > intended to be 'previous'! ;-)) Sorry about that. I knew that it was meant to be "previous". "There are four kinds of person to be found in the world. Which four? There is the case where a certain person takes life, takes what is not given (steals), engages in illicit sex, lies, speaks divisively, speaks abusively, engages in idle chatter; is covetous, malevolent, & holds wrong views. On the break-up of the body, after death, he reappears in the plane of deprivation, the bad destination, the lower realms, in hell. "But there is also the case where a certain person takes life... holds wrong views [yet], on the break-up of the body, after death, he reappears in the good destinations, in the heavenly world. "And there is the case where a certain person abstains from taking life, abstains from taking what is not given... is not covetous, not malevolent, & holds right views. On the break-up of the body, after death, he reappears in the good destinations, in the heavenly world. "But there is also the case where a certain person abstains from taking life, abstains from taking what is not given... is not covetous, not malevolent, & holds right views [yet], on the break-up of the body, after death, he reappears in the plane of deprivation, the bad destination, the lower realms, in hell... "In the case of the person who takes life...[yet] on the break-up of the body, after death, reappears in the good destinations, in the heavenly world: either earlier he performed fine kamma that is to be felt as pleasant, or later he performed fine kamma that is to be felt as pleasant, or at the time of death he adopted & carried out right views. Because of that, on the break-up of the body, after death, he reappears in the good destinations, in the heavenly world. But as for the results of taking life... holding wrong views, he will feel them either right here & now, or later [in this lifetime], or following that... "In the case of the person who abstains from taking life... but on the break-up of the body, after death, reappears in the plane of deprivation, the bad destination, the lower realms, in hell: either earlier he performed evil kamma that is to be felt as painful, or later he performed evil kamma that is to be felt as painful, or at the time of death he adopted & carried out wrong views. Because of that, on the break-up of the body, after death, he reappears in the plane of deprivation, the bad destination, the lower realms, in hell. But as for the results of abstaining from taking life... holding right views, he will feel them either right here & now, or later [in this lifetime], or following that... http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/study/kamma.html [MN 136] Regards, NEO Swee Boon 19955 From: Date: Fri Feb 28, 2003 1:58pm Subject: Re: What a Difference One Letter Makes (Re: [dsg] Re: Comfort) Hi, Swee Boon - Ahh, okay then. I thought you were taking an absolute view that wrong view always sends one to woeful realms. Now I get your point. Thank you for the clarification. No disagreement then, it seems. With metta, Howard In a message dated 2/28/03 9:38:17 PM Eastern Standard Time, nidive@y... writes: > Hi Howard, > > >The word 'precious', which indeed well describes human life, was > >intended to be 'previous'! ;-)) Sorry about that. > > I knew that it was meant to be "previous". > > "There are four kinds of person to be found in the world. Which > four? There is the case where a certain person takes life, takes > what is not given (steals), engages in illicit sex, lies, speaks > divisively, speaks abusively, engages in idle chatter; is covetous, > malevolent, &holds wrong views. On the break-up of the body, after > death, he reappears in the plane of deprivation, the bad > destination, the lower realms, in hell. > > "But there is also the case where a certain person takes life... > holds wrong views [yet], on the break-up of the body, after death, > he reappears in the good destinations, in the heavenly world. > > "And there is the case where a certain person abstains from taking > life, abstains from taking what is not given... is not covetous, not > malevolent, &holds right views. On the break-up of the body, after > death, he reappears in the good destinations, in the heavenly world. > > "But there is also the case where a certain person abstains from > taking life, abstains from taking what is not given... is not > covetous, not malevolent, &holds right views [yet], on the break-up > of the body, after death, he reappears in the plane of deprivation, > the bad destination, the lower realms, in hell... > > "In the case of the person who takes life...[yet] on the break-up of > the body, after death, reappears in the good destinations, in the > heavenly world: either earlier he performed fine kamma that is to be > felt as pleasant, or later he performed fine kamma that is to be > felt as pleasant, or at the time of death he adopted &carried out > right views. Because of that, on the break-up of the body, after > death, he reappears in the good destinations, in the heavenly world. > But as for the results of taking life... holding wrong views, he > will feel them either right here &now, or later [in this lifetime], > or following that... > > "In the case of the person who abstains from taking life... but on > the break-up of the body, after death, reappears in the plane of > deprivation, the bad destination, the lower realms, in hell: either > earlier he performed evil kamma that is to be felt as painful, or > later he performed evil kamma that is to be felt as painful, or at > the time of death he adopted &carried out wrong views. Because of > that, on the break-up of the body, after death, he reappears in the > plane of deprivation, the bad destination, the lower realms, in > hell. But as for the results of abstaining from taking life... > holding right views, he will feel them either right here &now, or > later [in this lifetime], or following that... > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/study/kamma.html > [MN 136] > > Regards, > NEO Swee Boon > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 19956 From: rjkjp1 Date: Fri Feb 28, 2003 7:06pm Subject: Re: Comfort --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "nidive " wrote: > Hi RobertK, > > > By mind states I assume you mean citta and the other mental > factors. > > Is citta able to be controlled? Can we direct it to do this or > that? > ------------------------------------------- > It is not "we" that direct it to do this or that. > > Cittas and cetasikas direct themselves. > ______________________ Dear Swee boon, I wasn't clear on your response to this question: Is citta able to be controlled? You say that cittas and cetasikas direct themselves. I believe cittas and cetasikas arise and fall away rapidly. The cittas that were there a split second ago are completely gone now. But because this isn't seen, and because the various factors making up each moment arise at the same time and then similar - but entirely different ones - arise, one imagines that it is all under control. Usually there is an idea of a whole - a being (even though we all say this being is not-self) that is doing such and such. But the reality is that there is an extraordinary number of momentary factors that come together for an instant and then fall away. There is an illusion of control due to not seeing the actual nature of these many factors. These factors simply perform their different functions - no self directing anything- and then fall away. No one, no power,no god can make them stay even for an instant - they are gone before they can even be thought about. --------------- > > If there is no self that directs and there is no direction, then > nobody can compose a coherent message, by virtue of the assumption > that cittas and cetasikas cannot direct themselves. > ______________ Sometimes I read messages that are fairly incoherent (not on dsg of course). Does that mean that the there is no self and no direction in those cases? I think cittas and cetasikas arise by conditions and perform their functions, that is all. > ------------- Robert: khanika samadhi is arising all the > > time, whether with kusala or akusala cittas. > __________________ > I don't think momentary concentration that arises with akusala > cittas is Right Concentration. It cannot lead to insight and calm. > > ++++++++++++++++++= Yes, that is right. RobertK 19957 From: Star Kid Date: Fri Feb 28, 2003 7:46pm Subject: Another good book, "The Dhammapada" Dear everybody, Hi! I am Kiana. I'd like to introduce a book again. It is about the sayings of Budda. It is called "The Dhammapada". It is realling easy to understand. I tried to ask and think for a time to understand them. They are short but they're useful. E.g. Be quick to do good. If you're slow. The mind, delighting in mischief will catch you. This means you need to do everything quick and good. Its seems like what we need to learn in H.K. society. It is realy useful I hope all of you enjoy this book. Kiana. 19958 From: nidive Date: Fri Feb 28, 2003 8:05pm Subject: Re: Comfort Hi RobertK, > I wasn't clear on your response to this question: Is citta able to > be controlled? To answer either yes or no, I would be drawn into either extreme views. > You say that cittas and cetasikas direct themselves. > I believe cittas and cetasikas arise and fall away rapidly. The > cittas that were there a split second ago are completely gone now. > But because this isn't seen, and because the various factors making > up each moment arise at the same time and then similar - but entirely > different ones - arise, one imagines that it is all under control. > Usually there is an idea of a whole - a being (even though we all say > this being is not-self) that is doing such and such. But the reality > is that there is an extraordinary number of momentary factors that > come together for an instant and then fall away. There is an illusion > of control due to not seeing the actual nature of these many factors. > These factors simply perform their different functions - no self > directing anything- and then fall away. No one, no power,no god can > make them stay even for an instant - they are gone before they can > even be thought about. Is the present moment entirely different from the next moment? Is the present moment entirely the same as the next moment? I don't think the Buddha taught any one of these extreme views. > Sometimes I read messages that are fairly incoherent (not on dsg of > course). Does that mean that the there is no self and no direction in > those cases? I think cittas and cetasikas arise by conditions and > perform their functions, that is all. Even if a message appears incoherent, does that mean there is no direction of mind states to produce that incoherent message? Even a mad person has direction of mind states. Except that this direction appears incoherent to us. Regards, NEO Swee Boon 19959 From: connie Date: Fri Feb 28, 2003 8:32pm Subject: Re: preliminary practice Hi Sukin and All ~ > Hi, Sukin. > > In an off-line message to me you used the phrase "inclined toward > 'deliberate preliminary practice' as a means to vipassana" and I'm > curious as to what that means. Would that be trying to practice samatha > meditation as a foundation for vipassana or trying to create some other > kind of conditions that would make one 'ready to advance' to vipassana? > Would just holding onto the idea of a self and wanting to reach any goal > fit that? I thought that you would put it in different words, as my above statement was made with regard to a certain Abhidhamma teacher who felt that the practice of jhana, would assist in vipassana. The same person also has the idea that until and unless one kept strict sila, there was no way that satipatthana could be developed properly. However since you addressed the question directly to me and since I feel that my statement could be applied to other situations as well, I will express some personal views. ======= Thank you. I didn't come up with a way to take the original phrase I wondered about out of context and still say where it came from. I also thought it would apply to other situations. When I first read the phrase 'deliberate preliminary practice', I thought it might even refer to reading and thinking about Dhamma. ======= You asked, "Would that be trying to practice samatha meditation as a foundation for vipassana?" I don't think that samatha leads to vipassana. There is no direct relationship. Samatha is kusala and is to be encouraged, ie. when the conditions are right for it to arise, one knows it. I believe that the more kusala one experiences the better it is in that it accumulates as sankhara. But can we make up our minds to develop it? If for example one does not have the accumulations for dana, can the act of giving be considered development? The kusala may only be a short moment, followed by many moments of akusala. So is the trying fruitful? Is kusala being developed? In the same way one may be mislead by practices such as `metta bhavana' as it is generally known, to be thinking that one is developing kusala. In reality I think one is developing ignorance. Ignorance as per `ignoring what is really going on'. ======= I like that "developing ignorance" idea. Hadn't ever thought of it that way. ======= Instead many believe that such practices are a foundation for vipassana. Even if metta arises easily for one, if one knows about Satipatthana and understands it's true significance, wouldn't knowing metta for what it is be more important than trying to have more metta? Wherefore the need to do anything for the citta that knows and understands. One may resolve to develop metta toward all beings, but that would be only a moment of citta accompanied by other kusala cetasikas. Does this entail a kind of formal practice? But only panna can see this. In fact I believe that those people who are the most eager to develop metta, are those who react towards their own aversion with aversion . The person who naturally has metta, does not dwell on the need to develop it. ======= I agree & having said that, also admit that my new year's resolution was to be more respectful and appreciative... which I suppose could be considered trying to cultivate an offshoot of metta. I wasn't really thinking about that at the time. Just thought I might enjoy myself more. If nothing else, I seem to pay more attention to the thoughts I have about people I see on the street, or even noticing such things as "I don't like that shade of green"... of course, it's a lot of thinking and more concepts... even when I tell myself "dosa" or "mana" with or without claiming it as mine. I suppose I could even be developing more of a sense of self now that I think about it. ======= But we are taught that samattha leads to vipassana, so it is also the question of ditthi. I think one sees a logical relation between the two, as the one leading to the other, because one does not understand about the complexity of conditions and anatta. It is with the same kind of reasoning that many think that suppressing the hindrances is a must if satipatthana is expected to arise at all. I think many do not understand the value of pariyatti, that even this is a level of panna and that higher levels are built upon this initial level. Our greatest enemy is avijja, not a non-concentrated mind. The reason Buddha realized anatta is not because his mind became more concentrated, but because this veil of delusion was finally lifted. Concentration is not a rarity, everyone has it. But our objects of concentration is the concepts built upon ignorance accumulated over eons. This is why according to my understanding, any development along the path of buddhadhamma, hinges upon the distinction between concept and reality. And that distinction can only start with the intellectual knowledge of the Teachings. ======== Not to disagree, but I wonder if there isn't a level of emotional understanding as well. One reads the word "joy" a lot... even equanimity would seem to be an emotional balance. ======== Patipatti develops upon this, not because there is a `self' which then decides to apply what has been heard, but when enough of intellectual understanding has taken place, the conditions would be right for the practice to take place. But this too, is just a moment of understanding which arises and falls, and only with regard to the particular aspect being understood. Not a course taken as one does in school, at the end of which it is all application, but many level of this too need to be developed and accumulated before the next stage of pativedha is reached. Even a Sekha continues learning theory, someone who no more has any doubts about reality, how much more so do we? Also I believe many people forget that ignorance is being developed if one takes what is concept to be reality. And I find it particularly dangerous, if one mistakes wrong practice to be the right one. As in the case where one formerly sits and believes that one is observing rise and fall, when in reality one is only perceiving concepts of rise and fall. And so far I have not even mentioned the automatic attachment to concept of time, place and posture!;-). ======== Again, thank you for pointing out about developing ignorance. ======== This is why, pariyatti is important, and this is why wise friends are important, and why wise consideration is important. You then asked, "Would just holding onto the idea of a self and wanting to reach any goal fit that?" Holding to the idea of self, is one problem, it can be done with tanha, mana or ditthi. This creates multiple problems on its own, each reinforcing the other. `Wanting to reach the goal' I believe, can be with wrong or right view. For us unenlightened worldlings, does aiming for Nibbana make any sense if we do not even know the characteristic of lobha, dosa and moha? Parinibbana I believe makes sense only to very high level of panna. So I think only a Sotapanna and up, could talk about wanting to reach it with any basis. I sometimes think about aiming to become a Sotapanna (not in this lifetime though) or at least reach the level of sacchayana (in this lifetime), but what is the basis of my having these aspirations. Are the accumulations right and ripe? No!! But does this discourage me? No! In fact with these false aspirations and hence subtle wish and expectations out of my mind, I am less distracted. Besides what is a `lifetime', what is 5 years, or 10 or 20? What is tomorrow? Aren't all these just concepts? Is there any reality other than this moment now? If the fire burning on our heads happening yesterday or tomorrow? Or is there only this moment?! I had other things in mind, but this is already too long. So I will end here and wait for feedback. :-) ======= I don't know what sacchayana is. Or why my friends call me patient. ======= Best wishes, Sukin. Thanks for everything. connie 19960 From: rjkjp1 Date: Fri Feb 28, 2003 9:49pm Subject: Re: Comfort > Robert: I wasn't clear on your response to this question: Is citta able to > > be controlled? __________ > >Sweeboon To answer either yes or no, I would be drawn into either extreme > views. _____________ Dear Swee Boon, Ok. You don't seem as certain as the post earlier this morning where you wrote "Control and directing of mind states is not a belief.........,snip> A person who says there is no control and no directing of mind states certainly holds wrong views. If this is not corrected, the bad destinations await him."" Anatta-lakkhana Sutta I have heard that on one occasion the Blessed One was staying at Varanasi in the Game Refuge at Isipatana. There he addressed the group of five monks: "Consciousness is not self. If consciousness were the self, this consciousness would not lend itself to dis-ease. It would be possible [to say] with regard to consciousness, 'Let my consciousness be thus. Let my consciousness not be thus.' But precisely because consciousness is not self, consciousness lends itself to dis-ease. And it is not possible [to say] with regard to consciousness, 'Let my consciousness be thus. Let my consciousness not be thus.'" endquote http://www.abhidhamma.org/samyutta_nikaya_59xxii.htm Samyutta Nikaya XXII.59 This is the second discourse the Buddha gave after his enlightenment. It was upon completion of this discourse that the five ascetics became arahants. According to your letter control of mindstates is not a belief (it is a fact). Why do you think the Buddha said , about vinnana (citta, mano ) translated as 'consciousness' in the sutta above: "it is not possible [to say] with regard to consciousness, 'Let my consciousness be thus. Let my consciousness not be thus." By the way he repeated this for every one of the five khandhas, which included also all mental factors, any mindstates at all. _______________________ earlier post, SweeBoon:: The fact that you are responding to my post in a coherent manner shows that there is control and directing of mind states."" _____________ >Robert: > Sometimes I read messages that are fairly incoherent . Does that mean that the there is no self and no direction > in > > those cases? I think cittas and cetasikas arise by conditions and > > perform their functions, that is all. _______________________ > > Swee Boon: Even if a message appears incoherent, does that mean there is no > direction of mind states to produce that incoherent message? > > Even a mad person has direction of mind states. Except that this > direction appears incoherent to us. ___________ I was responding to your earlier message where you said that "The fact that you are responding to my post in a coherent manner shows that there is control and directing of mind states."" Are you saying that the fact that someone responds in an incoherent manner also shows that there is control and direction of mind states? I believe that according to conditions certain mindstates arise and according to other conditions other mindstates arise. The idea of control seems an illusion to me. I'll leave your other points for now. Robertk > NEO Swee Boon 19961 From: christine_forsyth Date: Fri Feb 28, 2003 9:51pm Subject: Re:(3) Anattta and Kamma and Conventional Events(? at end) Dear RobM, Shakti, RobertK and All, RobM, you wrote a very interesting paragraph to Shakti: "The study of feelings is very important. Feeling is the weakest link in the chain of dependent origination; the bifurcation point at which we can break the chain. The transition from Feeling (a natural, objective occurrence) to Craving (our subjective reaction to feeling) is the transition from present effect (what happens to us) to present cause (creation of kamma)." I haven't considered Paticcasamuppada for a while, and always found it difficult. My understanding is that basically the Abhidhamma is just about Anatta and Dependent Origination (conditionality of all nama and rupa). A self-regenerating circle of incessant and unstoppable rebirths has occurred because of ignorance and delusion all through beginningless time. Why can we break the chain at Vedana - are there any Sutta references? I understand the benefit of separating bare 'feeling' from the emotional reaction that usually follows. Wouldn't it be that the ending of rebirth and suffering would occur by the extinction of ignorance and delusion because wisdom arises? I know it is said that vedana conditions craving. But aren't there many additional conditions for each of the links? Not just one thing causing one thing ... And do the links always follow in a procession one at a time? No loop backs or overlaps? I think I read an example somewhere about a chicken and an egg - no chicken without an egg, no egg without a chicken. And how does anatta fit in with 'someone deciding' to act to break the chain? Hope I'm not completely off the track here. metta, Christine Weight Age Gender Female Male 19962 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Fri Feb 28, 2003 9:56pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Another good book, "The Dhammapada" Dear Kiana, I am Kom. I very much like your suggestions. Maybe you could send the one you like every once in a while (and explain, if you could). I am sure every one will enjoy them. Thanks! kom > -----Original Message----- > From: Star Kid [mailto:starkidsclub@y...] > > > ... > > E.g. Be quick to do good. > If you're slow. > The mind, delighting in mischief will catch you. > > This means you need to do everything quick and good. > > Its seems like what we need to learn in H.K. society. > > It is realy useful I hope all of you enjoy this book. > > Kiana. 19963 From: robmoult Date: Fri Feb 28, 2003 10:59pm Subject: Re: a quantum view of free will Hi Connie, Sounds like we have some interests in common. At university, I took courses in quantum mechanics and elementary particle physics. I followed the link below and downloaded parts of the 1000+ page book. Interesting reading. A few months back, we had a discussion on DSG regarding Ethical vs. Scientific views. My perspective is that Buddhism is primarily ethical / soteriological and therefore takes a pure phenomological approach. I don't think it makes sense to try and treat Buddhism like science, where the primary objective is to create a model of reality. What is your view on this? Have you read, "Buddhist Theory of Causation and Einstein's Theory of Relativity" by Filita P. Bharucha? What are your comments on this book? I was recently sent a paper, "On the Stages of Perception: Towards a Synthesis of Cognitive Neuroscience and the Buddhist Abhidhamma Tradition" by Brian (Les) Lancaster. Please drop me an email if you are interested in getting a copy. Sorry, gotta go. They are boarding my flight from LA to KL. Metta, Rob M :-) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "connie" wrote: > Friends of the rat who might be interested in another theory of > consciousness ~ > > Our amazing lab rat, whilst meditating on the absurdities of being in > any way related to the foolish three blind mice, nonetheless found > itself warping through one of the inevitable worm holes and landed with > such force on theoretical physicist Matti Pitakanen's > http://blues.helsinki.fi/~matpitka that the half chewed pellet fell out > of it's mouth. There, the rat found a theory of Topological > Geometrodynamics, "an attempt to unify fundamental interactions by > assuming that physical spacetimes can be regarded as submanifolds of > certain 8-dimensional space". Holy kalapa, sniffed our whiskered > friend, that might help explain why the estimated order of magnitude of > the number of moments of consciousness per unit time given by the > Buddhists agrees with that obtained from Penrose-Hameroff theory, not > that the rat has a clue what P-H theory, density matrix eigenstates or > future light cones entail, but there are always quantum leaps of > imagination. At which thought, the rat's eyes lit upon an explanation > that "Each quantum jump in the endless sequence of quantum jumps > corresponds to different "I" with its own memories and plans of future. > "Me" is just God at this moment, or "Now". "You" is just "Me" at > different moment. Since the continuous personal existence is an illusion > there is no Death. Personal 'Me' dies and is reborn, when this God > decides to look somewhere else. Or 'I' destroys the old world and > creates a new one like in a dance of Shiva. Brahman=Atman identity means > the realization of this arbitrariness and the next step is to realize > that there is no Atman nor any Brahman!" The rat stifled a snicker as > Matti led a student into the room explaining that "standard quantum > measurement theory is a prediction of TGD and relates very closely with > consciousness. In a similar manner, the generalization of quantum > hologram principle is equally crucial for quantum TGD as it is for TGD > inspired theory of consciousness. Furthermore, the states of > supercanonical representations are genuine quantum gravitational states > (state functionals in the 'world of worlds'). Hence they correspond to > higher level of abstraction than ordinary quantum states and are natural > correlates of brain consciousness. So called massless extremals (MEs) > carrying these supercanonical representations seem to be for > consciousness what hydrogen atom is for atomic physics." At that, the > rat grabbed up the rest of the pellet and the edge of a drifting > mindlike spacetime sheet and disappeared back into the maze. > > By the way, Sarah, it is said that "living organisms become in TGD > Universe essentially objects of astrophysical size", so it seems > reasonable that Buddha did possess more than just Towering Wisdom. > > peace, > connie 19964 From: kenhowardau Date: Sat Mar 1, 2003 0:17am Subject: Re:(3) Anattta and Kamma and Conventional Events(? at end) Hi Shakti, ---------- > . . . but I am not clear about the physical being only pleasant or unpleasant. Why no neutral here??? > ----------- As I understand it, experiences at the five sense doors are always either pleasant or unpleasant. Moreover, the object experienced is always either a pleasant or an unpleasant object. At first glance, this is counter- intuitive; we think that pleasantness and unpleasantness must be subjective judgements made at the mind door. But after a little reflection, it all becomes clear and reasonable. I find it helpful to look at it in terms of kamma and vipaka: Whether an action is kusala or akusala must be a matter of absolute reality. (Even though, to our thinking minds, it is not always clear which is which.) Furthermore, the results of kamma must always match the cause; pleasant results must come from kusala kamma and unpleasant results must come from akusala kamma. Also, it is proper and natural that pleasant feelings should accompany pleasant vipaka and unpleasant feelings should accompany unpleasant vipaka. And this is how it is -- at the body door. So, the question ceases to be, 'why is feeling at the body door always either pleasant or unpleasant?' I think we might well ask, 'why are feelings at the other sense doors, neutral?' I gather it is simply because those other four bases lack the sensitivity to detect the differences in physical feelings. Hoping this is right, Ken H PS After writing this, I notice your question has already been comprehensively answered. I'll post it anyway, as a way of keeping in touch. kh 19965 From: Date: Sat Mar 1, 2003 2:01am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Comfort Hi, Robert (and Swee Boon) - Robert, your post is reproduced at the end. This "speed business" is a bit confusing, I think. Suppose the entire namarupic flow were slowed to 1% of its speed. Would there be any detectable difference? I'd say, no, none whatsoever, because it would have *all* slowed down. Speed is relative. Now, when one says that the cittas move very fast, what is meant is that mind changes more quickly than so-called matter. The Buddha put it that way in the suttas, and the Abhidhamma reformulated that in terms of a flow of individual cittas. In abhidhammic terms, if we look at cittas, cetasikas, and arammanas (whether current rupas or fresh memories of previous mindstates), the cittas change most quickly, the cetasikas less quickly, and the arammanas least quickly, with some cetasika ceasing and/or another arising with each citta replacement, and with up to 17 cittas coming and going during a process in which one arammana continues (or, perhaps, is replicated). The arammana in the next process, or at least in a very soon to begin process, may be a repetition or a slight modification of the current arammana. This is my understanding. Now in the foregoing, it is possible to speak of speed only relatively: cittas the fastest compared to slower cetasikas, and these compared to the yet slower, longest lasting processes. But as you and others have said, features are passed on from mindstate to mindstate (as cetasikas, I would suppose), and cetana, itself, can accumulate, can increase in strength, and can have subsequent effects. When cetana grows sufficiently strong, cittas can take it as object, entire processes can take it as object, and it will seem that "one" is willing, exerting "ones" volition. But even when cetana is weak, if mindfulness is well developed, cetana (more probably fresh memories of just passed cetana) can be noted, and, with developing wisdom, cetana can be seen as the impersonal phenomenon that it is. With that insightful observation, there is the realization that cetana is impersonal but has the "power to effect", to bring about, to control by setting up conditions. This is control without a controller, as I see it. Cetana is *very* important. For one thing, it is kamma. But more importantly, it is a prime cause of I-making. This is why, in fact, so many vipassana teachers (Mahasi Sayadaw and his students, for example) put considerable emphasis on the mindful noting of cetana. Seeing the moment-to-moment impermanence of cetana and seeing its impersonality goes a long way towards compromising the sense of self. With metta, Howard In a message dated 2/28/03 10:08:10 PM Eastern Standard Time, rjkjp1@y... writes: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "nidive " > wrote: > >Hi RobertK, > > > >>By mind states I assume you mean citta and the other mental > >factors. > >>Is citta able to be controlled? Can we direct it to do this or > >that? > >------------------------------------------- > >It is not "we" that direct it to do this or that. > > > >Cittas and cetasikas direct themselves. > >______________________ > Dear Swee boon, > I wasn't clear on your response to this question: Is citta able to be > controlled? > > You say that cittas and cetasikas direct themselves. > I believe cittas and cetasikas arise and fall away rapidly. The > cittas that were there a split second ago are completely gone now. > But because this isn't seen, and because the various factors making > up each moment arise at the same time and then similar - but entirely > different ones - arise, one imagines that it is all under control. > > Usually there is an idea of a whole - a being (even though we all say > this being is not-self) that is doing such and such. But the reality > is that there is an extraordinary number of momentary factors that > come together for an instant and then fall away. There is an illusion > of control due to not seeing the actual nature of these many factors. > These factors simply perform their different functions - no self > directing anything- and then fall away. No one, no power,no god can > make them stay even for an instant - they are gone before they can > even be thought about. > > > > --------------- > > > >If there is no self that directs and there is no direction, then > >nobody can compose a coherent message, by virtue of the assumption > >that cittas and cetasikas cannot direct themselves. > >______________ > > > Sometimes I read messages that are fairly incoherent (not on dsg of > course). Does that mean that the there is no self and no direction in > those cases? I think cittas and cetasikas arise by conditions and > perform their functions, that is all. > > >------------- > Robert: khanika samadhi is arising all the > >>time, whether with kusala or akusala cittas. > >__________________ > >I don't think momentary concentration that arises with akusala > >cittas is Right Concentration. It cannot lead to insight and calm. > > > >++++++++++++++++++= > Yes, that is right. > RobertK > > > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 19966 From: nidive Date: Sat Mar 1, 2003 7:07am Subject: Re: Comfort Hi RobertK, > According to your letter control of mindstates is not a belief (it > is a fact). Why do you think the Buddha said , about vinnana > (citta, mano ) translated as 'consciousness' in the sutta > above: "it is not possible [to say] with regard to > consciousness, 'Let my consciousness be thus. Let my consciousness > not be thus." > By the way he repeated this for every one of the five khandhas, > which included also all mental factors, any mindstates at all. The gist of the sutta you quoted is revealed later on in the sutta: "Thus, monks, any body whatsoever that is past, future, or present; internal or external; blatant or subtle; common or sublime; far or near: every body is to be seen as it actually is with right discernment as: 'This is not mine. This is not my self. This is not what I am.' It is impossible to direct form to be permanent. It is impossible to direct form not to disintegrate. It is impossible to direct form to be without dis-ease. In reference to this was it said: "And it is not possible [to say] with regard to form, 'Let this form be thus (permanent). Let this form not be thus (not to disintegrate).'". All that is impermanent and disintegrates is not self. In reference to this was it said: "If form were the self, this form would not lend itself to dis-ease.". Similarly with the rest of the aggregates. A rather similar but shorter discourse to Ananda is: 58. "Yet, Ananda, have I not taught from the very beginning that with all that is dear and beloved there must be change, separation, and severance? Of that which is born, come into being, is compounded and subject to decay, how can one say: 'May it not come to dissolution!' There can be no such state of things. And of that, Ananda, which the Tathagata has finished with, that which he has relinquished, given up, abandoned, and rejected -- his will to live on -- the Tathagata's word has been spoken once for all: 'Before long the Parinibbana of the Tathagata will come about. Three months hence the Tathagata will utterly pass away.' And that the Tathagata should withdraw his words for the sake of living on -- this is an impossibility. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/digha/dn16.html If form cannot be directed to change (to another form), then the Buddha must be lying when he said: "And what is the miracle of psychic power? There is the case where a monk wields manifold psychic powers. Having been one he becomes many; having been many he becomes one. He appears. He vanishes. He goes unimpeded through walls, ramparts, and mountains as if through space. He dives in and out of the earth as if it were water. He walks on water without sinking as if it were dry land. Sitting cross- legged he flies through the air like a winged bird. With his hand he touches and strokes even the sun and moon, so mighty and powerful. He exercises influence with his body even as far as the Brahma worlds. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/digha/dn11.html Form can be directed to change (to another form), but all forms are impermanent and thus not-self. Similarly with the rest of the aggregates. In Cetasikas Chapter 4, Nina wrote: The Atthasåliní (I, Part IV, Chapter I, 111) states about cetanå that its characteristic is coordinating the associated dhammas (citta and the other cetasikas) on the object and that its function is `willing'. We read: …There is no such thing as volition in the four planes of existence without the characteristic of coordinating; all volition has it. But the function of `willing' is only in moral (kusala) and immoral (akusala) states… It has directing as manifestation. It arises directing associated states, like the chief disciple, the chief carpenter, etc. who fulfil their own and others' duties. The Visuddhimagga (XIV, 135) gives a similar definition1. The characteristic of cetanå is coordinating. It coordinates the citta and the other cetasikas it accompanies on the object. Citta cognizes the object, it is the leader in knowing the object. The cetasikas which accompany citta share the same object, but they each have to fulfil their own task. For example, phassa contacts the object, vedanå feels, experiences the "taste" of the object, and saññå "marks" and remembers the object. Cetanå sees to it that the other dhammas it arises together with fulfil their tasks with regard to the object they all share. Every cetanå which arises, no matter whether it accompanies kusala citta, akusasa citta, vipåkacitta or kiriyacitta, has to coordinate the tasks of the other dhammas it accompanies. The cetanå which accompanies kusala citta and akusala citta has, in addition to coordinating, another task to perform: `willing' or `activity of kamma'1. According to the Atthasåliní, as to activity in moral and immoral acts, cetanå is exceedingly energetic whereas the accompanying cetasikas play only a restricted part. Cetanå which accompanies kusala citta and akusala citta coordinates the work of the other cetasikas it arises together with and it `wills' kusala or akusala, thus, it makes a "double effort". The Atthasåliní compares the double task of cetanå to the task of a landowner who directs the work of his labourers, looks after them and also takes himself an equal share of the work. He doubles his strength and doubles his effort. Even so volition doubles its strength and its effort in moral and immoral acts. As regards the manifestation of cetanå which is directing, the Atthasåliní compares cetanå with the chief disciple who recites his own lessons and makes the other pupils recite their lessons as well, with the chief carpenter who does his own work and makes the other carpenters do their work, or with the general who fights himself and makes the other soldiers take part in the battle, "…for when he begins, the others follow his example. Even so, when volition starts work on its object, it sets associated states to do each its own." May you have a clear view of non-selfness and direction. May you achieve Sotapanna Enlightenment in this precious lifetime. With Metta, NEO Swee Boon 19967 From: nidive Date: Sat Mar 1, 2003 7:14am Subject: [dsg] Re: Comfort Hi Howard, > ... and, with developing wisdom, cetana can be seen as the > impersonal phenomenon that it is. With that insightful observation, > there is the realization that cetana is impersonal but has > the "power to effect", to bring about, to control by setting up > conditions. This is control without a controller, as I see it. Excellent! > Cetana is *very* important. For one thing, it is kamma. But more > importantly, it is a prime cause of I-making. This is why, in > fact, so many vipassana teachers (Mahasi Sayadaw and his students, > for example) put considerable emphasis on the mindful noting of > cetana. Seeing the moment-to-moment impermanence of cetana and > seeing its impersonality goes a long way towards compromising the > sense of self. Yes, cetana is *very* important. Regards, NEO Swee Boon 19968 From: Date: Sat Mar 1, 2003 2:44am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Comfort Hi, Robert (and Swee Boon) - In a message dated 3/1/03 12:49:46 AM Eastern Standard Time, rjkjp1@y... writes: > > According to your letter control of mindstates is not a belief (it is > a fact). Why do you think the Buddha said , about vinnana (citta, > mano ) translated as 'consciousness' in the sutta above: "it is not > possible [to say] with regard to consciousness, 'Let my consciousness > be thus. Let my consciousness not be thus." > By the way he repeated this for every one of the five khandhas, which > included also all mental factors, any mindstates at all. > ============================ Saying these things is analogous to saying "Let me get a lot of money." Wishing that things be a certain way won't cut it. But, with regard to the conventional money example, while mere wanting of riches won't bring them about, the setting up of certain conditions will lead to riches. Likewise - just as an example - saying "Let me be calm" will do little, but engaging in samatha bhavana will, if done properly and preceded and accompanied by serious observance of sila, will do more. More generally, to get from A to Z, one may have to traverse B through Y. Things can be accomplished, but only if done properly. One could meditate as the Buddha's teachers meditated for multiple lifetimes, and that alone would not lead to liberation. The Buddha discovered that. He discovered that there was more required. But he never said that nothing can be done except to study teachings and wait for conditions to somehow arise. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 19969 From: Deanna Shakti Johnson Date: Sat Mar 1, 2003 8:06am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:(3) Anattta and Kamma and Conventional Events(? at end) Christine and others, You bring up a lot of interesting questions. Isn't the question about the beginning of the chicken and egg the ultimate existential question? I don't think that this can ever be answered. I haven't studied Paticcasampddada much at all but wonder can the cycle of arising be broken in a number of places? Vedana would be a first place, but what about clinging (upadana)? Or is it the fact that clinging has arisen therefore the next process would in fact be becoming again? With metta, Shakti "christine_forsyth " wrote: Dear RobM, Shakti, RobertK and All, RobM, you wrote a very interesting paragraph to Shakti: "The study of feelings is very important. Feeling is the weakest link in the chain of dependent origination; the bifurcation point at which we can break the chain. The transition from Feeling (a natural, objective occurrence) to Craving (our subjective reaction to feeling) is the transition from present effect (what happens to us) to present cause (creation of kamma)." I haven't considered Paticcasamuppada for a while, and always found it difficult. My understanding is that basically the Abhidhamma is just about Anatta and Dependent Origination (conditionality of all nama and rupa). A self-regenerating circle of incessant and unstoppable rebirths has occurred because of ignorance and delusion all through beginningless time. Why can we break the chain at Vedana - are there any Sutta references? I understand the benefit of separating bare 'feeling' from the emotional reaction that usually follows. Wouldn't it be that the ending of rebirth and suffering would occur by the extinction of ignorance and delusion because wisdom arises? I know it is said that vedana conditions craving. But aren't there many additional conditions for each of the links? Not just one thing causing one thing ... And do the links always follow in a procession one at a time? No loop backs or overlaps? I think I read an example somewhere about a chicken and an egg - no chicken without an egg, no egg without a chicken. And how does anatta fit in with 'someone deciding' to act to break the chain? Hope I'm not completely off the track here. metta, Christine 19970 From: Deanna Shakti Johnson Date: Sat Mar 1, 2003 8:11am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:(3) Anattta and Kamma and Conventional Events(? at end) Dear Robert and Rob M, Thanks so much for the info on feeling and special thanks for Nina's link. I hadn't read thru it before and found it very helpful. I will continue to consider what was said. With metta, Shakti "rjkjp1 " wrote:--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Deanna Shakti Johnson wrote: > > After reading the above I was reminded of what I thought I heard Ajahn Sujin say while I was in Bangkok. This is how I remember it - The experience of the five senses at contact with an object are always a neutral experience, when an object is perceived at the mind door it can be either pleasant, unpleasant or neutral and finally physical feeling is always only pleasant or unpleasant. Is this correct? I can understand the initial neutral experience as being neutral and then the mind door process that follows being pleasant, unpleasant or neutral but I am not clear about the physical being only pleasant or unpleasant. Why no neutral here??? Can you or anyone give some examples about this. > > Thank you to everyone for their interesting posts. As I travel alot I don't seem to have much time to post but read when I find sometime. I appreciate your comments as they give me much to reflect on. Thanks, Shakti >____________________________ Dear Shakti, Good to hear from you. Those photos I took of us in bangkok came out good but seem to have been wiped off my camera . RobM gave a comprehensive answer. I just follow with some quotes from Nina's book; http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas4.html "The Paramattha Manjusa, a commentary to the Visuddhimagga (XIV, note 56) explains why kaya-vinnana is accompanied by either pleasant feeling or unpleasant feeling. This is because of the 'violence of the impact's blow '; there is the direct impact of tangible object on the bodysense. Tangible objects which are experienced through the rupa which is the bodysense are the following rupas: soIidity, appearing as hardness or softness, temperature, appearing as heat or cold, and motion, appearing as oscillation or pressure. By way of a simile the difference is explained between the impact of tangible object on the bodysense and the impact of the other sense objects on the relevant senses. When a man places cottonwool on an anvil and strikes it with an iron hammer, the hammer goes right through the cottonwool because of the violence of the impact. In the case, however, of the other panca-vinnanas, the impact is gentle, like the contact between two pieces of cottonwool. Thus, they are accompanied by indifferent feeling. The 'impact' of visible object on the eye- sense is gentle when compared with the direct physical contact of tangible object with the bodysense. We may believe that bodily feeling can be indifferent, but this is not so. The moment of body- consciousness (kaya-vinnana) is extremely short; it is only one moment of vipaka and after it has fallen away akusala cittas or kusala cittas arise. Body-consciousness Is accompanied either by pleasant bodily feeling or by painful bodily feeling. The akusala cittas or kusala cittas which arise shortly afterwards are accompanied by feelings which are different from bodily feeling. They can be accompanied by happy feeling, unhappy feeling or indifferent feeling. " RobertK 19971 From: nidive Date: Sat Mar 1, 2003 9:26am Subject: Re: Comfort Hi All, It occurred to me that the Buddha's memory-retentive power could be very strong. RobertK said: --------------------------------------------------------- Anatta-lakkhana Sutta I have heard that on one occasion the Blessed One was staying at Varanasi in the Game Refuge at Isipatana. There he addressed the group of five monks: "Consciousness is not self. If consciousness were the self, this consciousness would not lend itself to dis-ease. It would be possible [to say] with regard to consciousness, 'Let my consciousness be thus. Let my consciousness not be thus.' But precisely because consciousness is not self, consciousness lends itself to dis-ease. And it is not possible [to say] with regard to consciousness, 'Let my consciousness be thus. Let my consciousness not be thus.'" endquote http://www.abhidhamma.org/samyutta_nikaya_59xxii.htm Samyutta Nikaya XXII.59 This is the SECOND DISCOURSE the Buddha gave after his enlightenment. It was upon completion of this discourse that the five ascetics became arahants. --------------------------------------------------------- And in DN 16, 58. "Yet, Ananda, have I not TAUGHT FROM THE VERY BEGINNING that with all that is dear and beloved there must be change, separation, and severance? Of that which is born, come into being, is compounded and subject to decay, how can one say: 'May it not come to dissolution!' There can be no such state of things. And of that, Ananda, which the Tathagata has finished with, that which he has relinquished, given up, abandoned, and rejected -- his will to live on -- the Tathagata's word has been spoken once for all: 'Before long the Parinibbana of the Tathagata will come about. Three months hence the Tathagata will utterly pass away.' And that the Tathagata should withdraw his words for the sake of living on -- this is an impossibility. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/digha/dn16.html It "shudders" to think that the Dhamma that the Buddha taught is the same in the beginning and in the end spanning forty something years. It "shudders" to think that the Buddha's memory-retentive power could be so strong. It "shudders" to think that the Samyutta Nikaya and the Digha Nikaya could complement each other so well. Regards, NEO Swee Boon 19972 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sat Mar 1, 2003 10:15am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Kamma and Conventional Events: A Brief Comment Dear Rob M, op 28-02-2003 04:56 schreef robmoult op rob.moult@j...: > It is my understanding that these are actions which, when complete > (kamma-patha) can cause rebirth either in a woeful state (in the > case of akusala kamma patha) or in a human/deva/brahma realm (in the > case of kusala kamma patha). In other words, kamma-patha is only > relevant at the time of rebirth-linking. > > I did not think that kamma-patha had anything to do with the vipaka > cittas that arise during a lifetime, such as the ones which > condition a visible object to arise at the eye door. > > Anybody have any opinions? Nina: Yes I do believe those kammas also give results during life, by way of the experience of desirable and undesirable objects through six doorways. We can find many examples in the Jatakas and in the Theritheragatha. Nina 19973 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sat Mar 1, 2003 10:15am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Calm and Insight.special practice? Dear Swee Boon, see below. op 25-02-2003 16:27 schreef nidive op nidive@y...: Anguttara Nikaya, Catukka-nipata, No. 167. It relates that once the Venerable Maha Moggallana went to see the Elder and said to him: "There are four ways of progress, brother Sariputta: difficult progress, with sluggish direct-knowledge; difficult progress, with swift direct-knowledge; easy progress, with sluggish direct-knowledge; easy progress, with direct-knowledge. The explanation of this passage is that if the suppression of the defilements preparatory to absorption or insight takes place without great difficulty, progress is called "easy" (sukha-patipada); in the reverse case it is "difficult" or "painful" (dukkha-patipada). If, after the suppression of the defilements, the manifestation of the Path, the goal of insight, is quickly effected, the direct-knowledge (connected with the Path) is called "swift" (khippabhiñña); in the reverse case it is "sluggish" (dandabhiñña). In this discourse the Venerable Sariputta's statement refers to his attainment of Arahantship. His attainment of the first three Paths, however, was, according to the commentary to the above text, connected with "easy progress and sluggish direct-knowledge." Nina: I looked up the Co, and indeed, for Sariputta it was as above, and for the attainment of arahatship: easy and swift. For Moggalana, the three maggas easy and sluggish and for arahatship: painful and fast realization. But why should this apply to us now? These texts pertain to Sariputta and Moggalana, and to the attainments of the four Paths. I do not think with regard to myself of painful suppression of defilements right now. We are slow, slow slow anyway. Swee Boon: > I quote from Venerable Henepola in "A Critical Analysis of the > Jhanas" Page 172-173: ------------------------------------------------------- > Commenting on Buddhaghosa's remarks that sometimes the path to > purification is > taught by insight alone, the Maha Tika points out that this remark > is meant to > exclude, not all concentration, but only "that concentration with > distinction," > i.e. access and absorption. It then says: "Taking this stanza [Dhp. > v. 277] as > the teaching for one whose vehicle is insight does not imply that > there is no > concentration; for no insight comes about without momentary > concentration." A > short while later the Maha Tika again identifies momentary > concentration with > the type of concentration appropriate to one whose vehicle is > insight: > > ... supramundane... concentration and insight are impossible without > mundane > concentration and insight to precede them; for without the access > and absorption > concentration in one whose vehicle is serenity, or without the > momentary > concentration in one whose vehicle is insight, and without the > Gateways to > Liberation...., the supramundane can never in either case be reached. > > The commentary to the Majjhima Nikaya, in a passage quoted fully > above, states Nina: Since I do not have his book, only the Wheel, a shorter publication, could you give me this title of M, so that I look up the co? Momentary concentration may have different meanings in different contexts. The clue is what you quote last: simultaneously with > his post-jhanic attainment of insight, but for the vipassanayanika > it develops > naturally and spontaneously in the course of his insight practice > without his > having to fix the mind upon a single exclusive object.> Nina: Here we are. Panna is the leader, but all enlightenment factors develop together, including samadhi, this is no problem. No you who applies it, but samadhi itself performs its function. I do not see any indication in the texts that we have to suppress akusala first, they can be object of sati sampajanna. As panna develops, there will be awareness naturally, of more dhammas, because all of them have to be known. There will also be, naturally, a greater sense of urgency, less neglectfulness and forgetfulness of dhammas. It all grows naturally, so long as we do not try, wish, have attachment to many moments of sati, all that is counteractive. In the Theritheragatha we find examples of attainment of enlightenment in daily life, such as a Theri who fell down, and realized the Truth, another woman in the kitchen who had her curry burnt in the oven, it reminded her of impermanence, then and there. Khemaka was preaching Dhamma and attained. They did not go apart to concentrate on the three characteristics. S.B.: Questions: > (1) Is the Maha Tika part of the Theravadic commentary? How highly > regarded is it? > (2) How highly regarded is the subcommentary to the commentary to > the Majjhima Nikaya? Nina: both 1 and 2 belong to the tradition of the Theravada, are based upon the Tipitaka. By reading them you will see how helpful they are to understand the Tipitaka. I have found out now so many times that I overlooked points of the sutta, did not get the full meaning, without the commentary. This happens time and again to me. No 2 elaborates more on no 1, and it is helpful, but sometimes the language is difficult, like we have in the case of the Satipatthana sutta. As you can see, the Tika is quoted quite often in the context of Ven. Soma's translation. Nina. 19975 From: connie Date: Sat Mar 1, 2003 2:44pm Subject: Re: a quantum view of free will Hi Rob M ~ I'm curious about any number of things, but don't have a deep understanding of most of them... and sometimes not a lot of retention. Most of what I've tried to read from the TGD site is WAY over my head, but the less technical stuff is interesting. Glad you found something interesting there, too. I'm still looking thru what I downloaded but it's going to be taking a back seat and probably end up lost in my 'to read' heap. I'm still back in Nov. '91 on the dsg archives. To me, Buddhism is a science in its own right and I like reading things from other points of view that seem to confirm what Buddha taught. Buddha did describe a model of reality. Without reading the Ethical vs. Scientific thread, I'd say I agree with you that it's primarily ethical and phenomological. I don't know about 'soteriological', though... every time I see that word it's a toss up as to whether I'm going to look it up yet again or just ignore it. I haven't read Bharucha's book but I'd probably check it out of the library if I saw it. peace, connie Hi Connie, Sounds like we have some interests in common. At university, I took courses in quantum mechanics and elementary particle physics. I followed the link below and downloaded parts of the 1000+ page book. Interesting reading. A few months back, we had a discussion on DSG regarding Ethical vs. Scientific views. My perspective is that Buddhism is primarily ethical / soteriological and therefore takes a pure phenomological approach. I don't think it makes sense to try and treat Buddhism like science, where the primary objective is to create a model of reality. What is your view on this? Have you read, "Buddhist Theory of Causation and Einstein's Theory of Relativity" by Filita P. Bharucha? What are your comments on this book? I was recently sent a paper, "On the Stages of Perception: Towards a Synthesis of Cognitive Neuroscience and the Buddhist Abhidhamma Tradition" by Brian (Les) Lancaster. Please drop me an email if you are interested in getting a copy. Sorry, gotta go. They are boarding my flight from LA to KL. Metta, Rob M :-) 19976 From: rjkjp1 Date: Sat Mar 1, 2003 3:59pm Subject: Re:(3) Anattta and Kamma and Conventional Events(? at end) --- Dear Christine, You have a good eye for important points. I liked what you said: "Why can we break the chain at > Vedana - are there any Sutta references? I understand the benefit of > separating bare 'feeling' from the emotional reaction that usually > follows. Wouldn't it be that the ending of rebirth and suffering > would occur by the extinction of ignorance and delusion because > wisdom arises? I know it is said that vedana conditions craving. > But aren't there many additional conditions for each of the links? > Not just one thing causing one thing ... And do the links always > follow in a procession one at a time? No loop backs or overlaps? " i Trying to break the chain.... - it can be with the idea that sati is a dhamma that can be controlled. But sati is as conditioned as any other dhamma. In fact in the satipatthana sutta feeling is one of the objects. So is citta, so is rupa. So are all the five khandhas. Feeling arises now - it can be known with right view or wrong view. Craving arises so often- it can be known with right view or wrong view. Do we really want to see that there is no one anywhere. Or do we want 'signs of progress' some method that proves "I" am geeting somewhere. The real way doesn't mind what dhammas are there. If craving is present then that can be known. If there is no sati then that can be understood too. If this is properly understood then no object will be neglected and none will be preferred. I think every moment is perfect- perfectly conditioned to be as it is. RobertK 19977 From: Date: Sat Mar 1, 2003 11:55am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:(3) Anattta and Kamma and Conventional Events(? at end) Hi, Robert - In a message dated 3/1/03 7:01:27 PM Eastern Standard Time, rjkjp1@y... writes: > Trying to break the chain.... - it can be with the idea that sati is > a dhamma that can be controlled. But sati is as conditioned as any > other dhamma. > In fact in the satipatthana sutta feeling is one of the objects. So > is citta, so is rupa. So are all the five khandhas. > Feeling arises now - it can be known with right view or wrong view. > Craving arises so often- it can be known with right view or wrong > view. > Do we really want to see that there is no one anywhere. Or do we > want 'signs of progress' some method that proves "I" am geeting > somewhere. > ---------------------------------------------- Howard: Seeing that there is nobody anywhere (and no self in anythging anywhere, I would add) is exactly the progress required. ---------------------------------------------- > The real way doesn't mind what dhammas are there. If craving is > present then that can be known. If there is no sati then that can be > understood too. If this is properly understood then no object will be > neglected and none will be preferred. > I think every moment is perfect- perfectly conditioned to be as it > is. > RobertK > =========================== Robert, I like what you wrote here. (I would only add that much real effort and much cultivation is required to reach the stage of seeing that there is actually nothing to do, and no one to do it!) BTW, had I read what you wrote above, particularly the last paragraph, in a book on Zen, it would have appeared *just right*! There is something "very Zen" about what you wrote here. (Have you ever studied Zen?) [BTW, there are Zen Buddhists, Charlotte Joko Beck is one such, who don't do formal sitting or walking meditation, but only engage in ongoing mindfulness as regularly as possible.] With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 19978 From: rjkjp1 Date: Sat Mar 1, 2003 5:17pm Subject: [dsg] Re:(3) Anattta and Kamma and Conventional Events(? at end) --- Dear Howard, I have to say I feel flattered by your comments. Of course I do agree that much effort is required to see this. Actually the first book I read in buddhism was on zen. That was 20 years ago. I 'switched' to theravada after a few months once I found that theravada contained the original teachings. And yes I have heard of Joko beck. I read a book recently by another american woman teacher called Toni packer that I thought was very clear on many aspects(but not as clear as Abhidhamma of course:)). Sarah will remember I bought this up with Acharn Sujin in Kaeng Krachan. I even invited Beck to join dsg but her secretary wrote a letter explaining she doesn't have time - but appreciative of some quotes about the present moment from A. Sujin, that I sent in the letter. RobertK In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Robert - > > In a message dated 3/1/03 7:01:27 PM Eastern Standard Time, rjkjp1@y... > writes: > > > Trying to break the chain.... - it can be with the idea that sati is > > a dhamma that can be controlled. But sati is as conditioned as any > > other dhamma. > > In fact in the satipatthana sutta feeling is one of the objects. So > > is citta, so is rupa. So are all the five khandhas. > > Feeling arises now - it can be known with right view or wrong view. > > Craving arises so often- it can be known with right view or wrong > > view. > > Do we really want to see that there is no one anywhere. Or do we > > want 'signs of progress' some method that proves "I" am geeting > > somewhere. > > > ---------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Seeing that there is nobody anywhere (and no self in anythging > anywhere, I would add) is exactly the progress required. > ---------------------------------------------- > > > The real way doesn't mind what dhammas are there. If craving is > > present then that can be known. If there is no sati then that can be > > understood too. If this is properly understood then no object will be > > neglected and none will be preferred. > > I think every moment is perfect- perfectly conditioned to be as it > > is. > > RobertK > > > =========================== > Robert, I like what you wrote here. (I would only add that much real > effort and much cultivation is required to reach the stage of seeing that > there is actually nothing to do, and no one to do it!) BTW, had I read what > you wrote above, particularly the last paragraph, in a book on Zen, it would > have appeared *just right*! There is something "very Zen" about what you > wrote here. (Have you ever studied Zen?) > [BTW, there are Zen Buddhists, Charlotte Joko Beck is one such, who > don't do formal sitting or walking meditation, but only engage in ongoing > mindfulness as regularly as possible.] > > With metta, > Howard 19979 From: rjkjp1 Date: Sat Mar 1, 2003 7:02pm Subject: [dsg] Re:(3) Anattta and Kamma and Conventional Events(? at end) ---Oops, That should have been " I even invited Toni PACKER to join dsg" : not BECK. In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1 " wrote: > --- > Dear Howard, > I have to say I feel flattered by your comments. > Of course I do agree that much effort is required to see this. > Actually the first book I read in buddhism was on zen. That was 20 > years ago. I 'switched' to theravada after a few months once I found > that theravada contained the original teachings. > And yes I have heard of Joko beck. I read a book recently by another > american woman teacher called Toni packer that I thought was very > clear on many aspects(but not as clear as Abhidhamma of course:)). > 19980 From: robmoult Date: Sat Mar 1, 2003 9:36pm Subject: Re:(3) Anattta and Kamma and Conventional Events(? at end) Hi Christine, Sorry for the delay in responding, I just got off a very, very long flight. The following article about "Feeling" has lots and lots of Sutta references and gives excellent practical advice about breaking the link in the chain of dependent origination. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/wheels/wheel303.html Let me know what you think... I think that you will really like this one! Metta, Rob M :-) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth " wrote: > Dear RobM, Shakti, RobertK and All, > > RobM, you wrote a very interesting paragraph to Shakti: > "The study of feelings is very important. Feeling is the weakest link > in the chain of dependent origination; the bifurcation point at > which we can break the chain. The transition from Feeling (a > natural, objective occurrence) to Craving (our subjective reaction > to feeling) is the transition from present effect (what happens to > us) to present cause (creation of kamma)." > > I haven't considered Paticcasamuppada for a while, and always found > it difficult. My understanding is that basically the Abhidhamma is > just about Anatta and Dependent Origination (conditionality of all > nama and rupa). A self-regenerating circle of incessant and > unstoppable rebirths has occurred because of ignorance and delusion > all through beginningless time. Why can we break the chain at > Vedana - are there any Sutta references? I understand the benefit of > separating bare 'feeling' from the emotional reaction that usually > follows. Wouldn't it be that the ending of rebirth and suffering > would occur by the extinction of ignorance and delusion because > wisdom arises? I know it is said that vedana conditions craving. > But aren't there many additional conditions for each of the links? > Not just one thing causing one thing ... And do the links always > follow in a procession one at a time? No loop backs or overlaps? I > think I read an example somewhere about a chicken and an egg - no > chicken without an egg, no egg without a chicken. > And how does anatta fit in with 'someone deciding' to act to break > the chain? > Hope I'm not completely off the track here. > > metta, > Christine 19981 From: robmoult Date: Sat Mar 1, 2003 9:44pm Subject: Re:(3) Anattta and Kamma and Conventional Events(? at end) Hi Ken, I think that eye-door consciousness, ear-door consciousness, nose- door consciousness and tongue-door consciousness is always accompanied by neutral feeling. It doesn't matter if it is akusala eye-door consciousness (the result of past akusala javana) or kusala eye-door consciousness (the result of past kusala javana). Body-door consciousness can be either painful (when it is the result of past akusala javana) or pleasureable (when it is the result of past kusala javana). My recent post has lots more details (please let me know if you find any mistakes). Metta, Rob M :-) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau " wrote: > > Hi Shakti, > > ---------- > > . . . but I am not clear about the physical being only > pleasant or unpleasant. Why no neutral here??? > > ----------- > > As I understand it, experiences at the five sense doors > are always either pleasant or unpleasant. Moreover, the > object experienced is always either a pleasant or an > unpleasant object. At first glance, this is counter- > intuitive; we think that pleasantness and unpleasantness > must be subjective judgements made at the mind door. > But after a little reflection, it all becomes clear and > reasonable. > > I find it helpful to look at it in terms of kamma and > vipaka: Whether an action is kusala or akusala must be a > matter of absolute reality. (Even though, to our thinking > minds, it is not always clear which is which.) > Furthermore, the results of kamma must always match the > cause; pleasant results must come from kusala kamma and > unpleasant results must come from akusala kamma. > > Also, it is proper and natural that pleasant feelings > should accompany pleasant vipaka and unpleasant feelings > should accompany unpleasant vipaka. And this is how it > is -- at the body door. > > So, the question ceases to be, 'why is feeling at the > body door always either pleasant or unpleasant?' I think > we might well ask, 'why are feelings at the other sense > doors, neutral?' I gather it is simply because those > other four bases lack the sensitivity to detect the > differences in physical feelings. > > Hoping this is right, > Ken H > > PS After writing this, I notice your question has already > been comprehensively answered. I'll post it anyway, as a > way of keeping in touch. > kh 19982 From: robmoult Date: Sat Mar 1, 2003 9:49pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Kamma and Conventional Events: A Brief Comment Hi Nina, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > Dear Rob M, > op 28-02-2003 04:56 schreef robmoult op > rob.moult@j...: > > > It is my understanding that these are actions which, when complete > > (kamma-patha) can cause rebirth either in a woeful state (in the > > case of akusala kamma patha) or in a human/deva/brahma realm (in the > > case of kusala kamma patha). In other words, kamma-patha is only > > relevant at the time of rebirth-linking. > > > > I did not think that kamma-patha had anything to do with the vipaka > > cittas that arise during a lifetime, such as the ones which > > condition a visible object to arise at the eye door. > > > > Anybody have any opinions? > Nina: Yes I do believe those kammas also give results during life, by way of > the experience of desirable and undesirable objects through six doorways. We > can find many examples in the Jatakas and in the Theritheragatha. > Nina This is something that I am not clear about. What makes a kamma, "kamma-patha"? I thought that every javana citta created the potential for future vipaka (when conditions allowed). If I understand Jon correctly, he disagrees and feels that only certain javana cittas create the potential for future vipaka. Please help me understand better. Thanks a lot! Metta, Rob M :-) 19983 From: robmoult Date: Sat Mar 1, 2003 9:55pm Subject: Sanna - Looking for feedback! Hi All, Over the past week, I have been reading a lot about sanna (lots of airplane time). Following is my current understanding pieced together from a number of sources. Please let me know if you disagree with anything that I have said. ======= The cittas in an eye-door citta process have "visible object" (rupa) as their object. A "visible object" is not a flower (flower is a concept). A visible object is a dot, a dot of colour. As an analogy, consider how television works. What appears on the screen is not a "flower", but rather many coloured dots that our mind constructs into an image of a "flower". The TV set simply presents dots to us and our mind does the rest. The eye-door citta process is followed by some bhavanga cittas and then a mind-door citta process arises, which takes a concept as object. The object of this first mind-door citta process after the eye-door citta process is the "mental image" of the visible object. The characteristic of the visible object (red, blue, etc.) was "marked" by the cetasika sanna in the cittas of the eye-door citta process.. This characteristic is noted by the cetasika sanna in the cittas of the first mind-door citta process to mark the mental image (concept) of a coloured dot. The eye-door citta process now takes in another visible object (another dot) and a mental image (concept) of the second coloured dot is marked by the cetasika sanna. This is followed by more eye- door citta process, each with a mind-door citta process. When sufficient "dots" have been processed, a mind-door citta process with a concept of blocks of colour and shading is perceived. Blocks of colour and shading are marked by the cetasika sanna in the cittas of the mind-door citta process. It is the cetasika sanna which "recognizes" these marked blocks and the concept of shape or form becomes the object of more mind-door citta processes. This is followed by the critical step of naming or "designation". The shape or form, is marked as an object of a mind-door citta process. Subsequent mind-door citta processes note this marking and "remember" the name of "flower". It would appear that dots, blocks of colour / shading and shapes are "short-term" memories, available to provide continuity, but not used for "long-term memory. It would appear that long-term memories are tied to naming and this is why we cannot remember our early childhood (before we learned names for things). The Suttas explain that sanna creates concepts. We have seen that the sense-door citta process a small, elemental bit of information and the subsequent mind-door citta processes process this into increasingly complex concepts: - Dots --> Blocks of colour --> Shapes --> Names It is the role of the cetasika sanna to provide the "glue" that provides continuity by marking objects from one citta process and recognizing the marked objects in the subsequent mind-door citta process. The cetasika sanna also provides the "glue" that allows mental objects to become increasingly complex by recognizing mental objects and associating them with other concepts in first short-term and then in long-term memory. It is important to note that this "recognition" is superficial. The commentary gives the analogy of a blind man touching the head on an elephant and saying "an elephant is like a big kettle" while another blind man touches the ear and says "an elephant is like a big fan". The association used by sanna is superficial, without wisdom (panna). The association used by sanna is brief, like lightning. Unlike panna, sanna does not penetrate the true nature of the object. The building of the concept does not stop with "naming". Long term memory stores names with their associated feeling (pleasant, unpleasant, neutral). Along with the name, sanna also "remembers" the associated feeling. This stage of judgment is what completes the link between feeling and craving in dependent origination. Craving is conditioned by pleasant feeling associated with concepts. Visible objects condition neutral feeling and therefore do not condition craving directly. Pleasant feeling is associated with current concepts when sanna "remembers" past concepts and the associated pleasant feeling. This progression is described in the Honeyball Sutta (Mn18): ----- Dependent on the eye and forms, eye consciousness arises. The meeting of the three is contact. With contact as a condition there is feeling. What one feels, that one perceives. What one perceives, that one thinks about. What one thinks about, that one obsesses. What obsesses one is the cause perceptions and notions tinged by obsession that beset a man with respect to past, future and present forms cognizable though the eye. ----- The first paragraph explains how feeling arises naturally and objectively from contact. The key to understanding the second paragraph comes from the commentary, which explains that "perceives" should be interpreted as meaning "naming" (the Sanskrit equivalent of sanna, samjna, means "name"). The wording of the second paragraph makes it clear that the process of naming, "thinking about" and obsession (papancasanna) is a subjective process. Visible objects with neutral feeling give rise to names (concepts) and it is these concepts which inherit pleasant feeling from the past memory (courtesy of sanna). The pleasant feeling conditions craving and, as explained in the third paragraph of the Honeyball Sutta, this conditions dukkha (and by extension, ties us to samsara). The Vibhanga (second book of the Abhidhamma Pitaka) classifies sanna as unwholesome (akusala), wholesome (kusala) and neutral. Whenever something is sensed, it is also recognized. Sanna always accompanies and follows vedana, but depending on the orientation of sanna, one may generate craving or start generating wisdom (by remembering the characteristics of existence; anicca, dukkha and anatta). According to the Suttas, unwholesome sanna conditions the arising of views (such as the personality view, sakaya-ditthi, based on ignorance), sorrow and obsession. Sanna can also be wholesome (kusala) when it is geared towards the recognition of elements essential for liberation. When înanda reported that a monk was sick, the Buddha told înanda to recite the "ten sanna" in front of the monk to condition kusala thoughts in the monk. The ten sanna are: - The recognition of impermanence (aniccasanna) - The recognition of selflessness (anattasanna) - The recognition of unpleasantness (asubhasanna) - The recognition of danger (Adinavasanna) - The recognition of abandoning (pahanasanna) - The recognition of dispassion (viragasanna) - The recognition of cessation (nirodhasanna) - The recognition of disenchantment with the entire world (sabbaloke anabhiratasanna) - The recognition of impermanence in reference to all compounded things (sabbe sankharesu aniccasanna) - The mindfulness of breathing (Anapanasati) Just as sanna is between feeling (vedana) and craving (taöha) in the chain of dependent origination, whenever the five aggregates are listed, sanna is always listed between feeling and sankhara (sankhara includes craving). ================ Looking forward to your feedback! Metta, Rob M :-) 19984 From: robmoult Date: Sat Mar 1, 2003 10:35pm Subject: Re: a quantum view of free will Hi Connie, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "connie" wrote: > I don't know about 'soteriological', though... > every time I see that word it's a toss up as to whether I'm going to > look it up yet again or just ignore it. A while back, I bought a book, "The Five Aggregates - Understanding Theravada Psychology and Soteriology". Like you, I had no idea what "Soteriology" meant. Even after reading some of the book, I still had no idea. Eventually, curiosity got the better of me and I looked it up in the dictionary. It wasn't there. So I hauled out my BIG dictionary (2000 pages, the dictionary I use when I play Scrabble) and found it. It is a theological term meaning the doctrine of salvation. In a Buddhist context, I take it as meaning dependent origination. Since then, I have tried to work the word into conversations whenever I could (not too many opportunities... my reply to your message was my first). Now we both know the word and can use it freely in our exchanges to sound erudite to "the uninitiated"! :-) Metta, Rob M :-) 19985 From: robmoult Date: Sat Mar 1, 2003 10:57pm Subject: Re: a quantum view of free will Hi Connie, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "connie" wrote: > To me, Buddhism is a science in its own right and I like reading things > from other points of view that seem to confirm what Buddha taught. > Buddha did describe a model of reality. Without reading the Ethical vs. > Scientific thread, I'd say I agree with you that it's primarily ethical > and phenomological. I had an interesting exchange with Howard on this subject a few months ago and I would be keen to have another with you; I am certain that it would evolve into a new direction. I do not see Buddhism as a "science". The Buddha was very clear what topics he wanted to talk about and what topic he refused to talk about. Please check out the Cula-Malunkyovada Sutta (Mn63): http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/majjhima/mn063.html In this Sutta, the Buddha made it clear that the scope of his teachings were (and what they were not): "So, Malunkyaputta, remember what is undisclosed by me as undisclosed, and what is disclosed by me as disclosed. And what is undisclosed by me? 'The cosmos is eternal,' is undisclosed by me. 'The cosmos is not eternal,' is undisclosed by me. 'The cosmos is finite'... 'The cosmos is infinite'... 'The soul & the body are the same'... 'The soul is one thing and the body another'... 'After death a Tathagata exists'... 'After death a Tathagata does not exist'... 'After death a Tathagata both exists & does not exist'... 'After death a Tathagata neither exists nor does not exist,' is undisclosed by me. "And why are they undisclosed by me? Because they are not connected with the goal, are not fundamental to the holy life. They do not lead to disenchantment, dispassion, cessation, calming, direct knowledge, self-awakening, Unbinding. That's why they are undisclosed by me. "And what is disclosed by me? 'This is stress,' is disclosed by me. 'This is the origination of stress,' is disclosed by me. 'This is the cessation of stress,' is disclosed by me. 'This is the path of practice leading to the cessation of stress,' is disclosed by me. And why are they disclosed by me? Because they are connected with the goal, are fundamental to the holy life. They lead to disenchantment, dispassion, cessation, calming, direct knowledge, self-awakening, Unbinding. That's why they are disclosed by me. "So, Malunkyaputta, remember what is undisclosed by me as undisclosed, and what is disclosed by me as disclosed." So Connie, we can see that the Buddha's focus was purely ethics and soteriology (see my last post to you :-) ). In my mind, the purpose of science is to create a model for some aspect of reality. In my opinion, the Buddha did not offer any models for reality (some of the later commentators may have added some in, but that doesn't count). The Buddha was focused on the mind. The mind is the realm of ethics and soteriology (wow, that twice in one posting!). When the Buddha discussed rupa, he only did it in reference to rupa impacting the mind. I see Buddhism as being purely phenomenological. For example, according to the Abhidhammatthasangahadipanipali, the proximate cause of rupa is consciousness (vinnana). In other words, without consciousness you don't get rupa (if a tree falls in the forest with none to hear, then there is no sound). Connie, I am interested in your feedback! Metta, Rob M :-) 19986 From: robmoult Date: Sat Mar 1, 2003 11:14pm Subject: Re:(3) Anattta and Kamma and Conventional Events(? at end) Hi Ken, You might find my recent post on Sanna interesting as it does touch on feelings arising at the mind door rather than at the sense door. Metta, Rob M :-) PS: Oops, I notice that I have a long unbroken string of several messages on DSG. Somebody please stop me before I post again :-) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult " wrote: > Hi Ken, > > I think that eye-door consciousness, ear-door consciousness, nose- > door consciousness and tongue-door consciousness is always > accompanied by neutral feeling. It doesn't matter if it is akusala > eye-door consciousness (the result of past akusala javana) or kusala > eye-door consciousness (the result of past kusala javana). > > Body-door consciousness can be either painful (when it is the result > of past akusala javana) or pleasureable (when it is the result of > past kusala javana). > > My recent post has lots more details (please let me know if you find > any mistakes). > > Metta, > Rob M :-) > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau > " wrote: > > > > Hi Shakti, > > > > ---------- > > > . . . but I am not clear about the physical being only > > pleasant or unpleasant. Why no neutral here??? > > > ----------- > > > > As I understand it, experiences at the five sense doors > > are always either pleasant or unpleasant. Moreover, the > > object experienced is always either a pleasant or an > > unpleasant object. At first glance, this is counter- > > intuitive; we think that pleasantness and unpleasantness > > must be subjective judgements made at the mind door. > > But after a little reflection, it all becomes clear and > > reasonable. > > > > I find it helpful to look at it in terms of kamma and > > vipaka: Whether an action is kusala or akusala must be a > > matter of absolute reality. (Even though, to our thinking > > minds, it is not always clear which is which.) > > Furthermore, the results of kamma must always match the > > cause; pleasant results must come from kusala kamma and > > unpleasant results must come from akusala kamma. > > > > Also, it is proper and natural that pleasant feelings > > should accompany pleasant vipaka and unpleasant feelings > > should accompany unpleasant vipaka. And this is how it > > is -- at the body door. > > > > So, the question ceases to be, 'why is feeling at the > > body door always either pleasant or unpleasant?' I think > > we might well ask, 'why are feelings at the other sense > > doors, neutral?' I gather it is simply because those > > other four bases lack the sensitivity to detect the > > differences in physical feelings. > > > > Hoping this is right, > > Ken H > > > > PS After writing this, I notice your question has already > > been comprehensively answered. I'll post it anyway, as a > > way of keeping in touch. > > kh 19987 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sat Mar 1, 2003 11:58pm Subject: Re:(3) Anattta and Kamma and Conventional Events(? at end) Hi RobM, and All, Thanks for reminding me of Nyanaponika Thera's Contemplation of Feeling. I have it printed off from past forays into trying to understand the curse of emotional reactivity. ( :-) And, I've just realised that something seems to have changed slightly over the last year or so - though feeling (and thoughts and emotions proliferating from feeling) still Rules, it is no longer inevitable that feeling progresses to strong emotions). Often (not often enough) I see feeling and know it as it is, and somehow that diminishes it's power. (I can relate to the sutta explaining the Hundred and Eight Feelings!). I have read the Vedanasamyutta again. As far as I can make out (asking for guidance here please) it is the Arahant who breaks the chain of Paticcasamuppada at Vedana. To get to that point is a long journey yet for we worldlings, and the power of Vedana is attenuated by differing levels of enlightenment, before finally being broken. (Not something that one is likely to do at an annual ten day retreat, or in the hour before breakfast). http://web.ukonline.co.uk/buddhism/ariyas4.htm Is it a *real* possibility for anyone who has not gone forth? What do you reckon? metta, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult " wrote: > Hi Christine, > > Sorry for the delay in responding, I just got off a very, very long > flight. > > The following article about "Feeling" has lots and lots of Sutta > references and gives excellent practical advice about breaking the > link in the chain of dependent origination. > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/wheels/wheel303.html > > Let me know what you think... I think that you will really like this > one! > > Metta, > Rob M :-) > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth > " wrote: > > Dear RobM, Shakti, RobertK and All, > > > > RobM, you wrote a very interesting paragraph to Shakti: > > "The study of feelings is very important. Feeling is the weakest > link > > in the chain of dependent origination; the bifurcation point at > > which we can break the chain. The transition from Feeling (a > > natural, objective occurrence) to Craving (our subjective reaction > > to feeling) is the transition from present effect (what happens to > > us) to present cause (creation of kamma)." > > > > I haven't considered Paticcasamuppada for a while, and always > found > > it difficult. My understanding is that basically the Abhidhamma > is > > just about Anatta and Dependent Origination (conditionality of all > > nama and rupa). A self-regenerating circle of incessant and > > unstoppable rebirths has occurred because of ignorance and > delusion > > all through beginningless time. Why can we break the chain at > > Vedana - are there any Sutta references? I understand the benefit > of > > separating bare 'feeling' from the emotional reaction that usually > > follows. Wouldn't it be that the ending of rebirth and suffering > > would occur by the extinction of ignorance and delusion because > > wisdom arises? I know it is said that vedana conditions craving. > > But aren't there many additional conditions for each of the > links? > > Not just one thing causing one thing ... And do the links always > > follow in a procession one at a time? No loop backs or overlaps? > I > > think I read an example somewhere about a chicken and an egg - no > > chicken without an egg, no egg without a chicken. > > And how does anatta fit in with 'someone deciding' to act to break > > the chain? > > Hope I'm not completely off the track here. > > > > metta, > > Christine 19988 From: robmoult Date: Sun Mar 2, 2003 0:43am Subject: Re:(3) Anattta and Kamma and Conventional Events(? at end) Hi Christine, In my opinion, only an Arahant is totally successful in breaking the link of dependent origination, but what is important is that we are moving in the direction of the Arahant. Each time we perform akusala (see things as they truly are), we are creating the potential for future good kamma and also (more importantly, in my opinion) developing a good habit that will serve us for the rest of our existences. Knowing that it is the feeling - craving link that we must focus on allows us to put our efforts in the right direction. To me, this is the most important thing to understand about dependent origination because we can apply this theory and put it into practice to develop wisdom. Christine, you say that you have made progress in this area in the past year. Congratulations! One year as a percentage of your total existences is an incredibly short time and to be seeing progress must be very exciting. Keep developing those good habits! Metta, Rob M :-) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth " wrote: > Hi RobM, and All, > > Thanks for reminding me of Nyanaponika Thera's Contemplation of > Feeling. I have it printed off from past forays into trying to > understand the curse of emotional reactivity. ( :-) And, I've just > realised that something seems to have changed slightly over the last > year or so - though feeling (and thoughts and emotions proliferating > from feeling) still Rules, it is no longer inevitable that feeling > progresses to strong emotions). Often (not often enough) I see > feeling and know it as it is, and somehow that diminishes it's power. > (I can relate to the sutta explaining the Hundred and Eight > Feelings!). > > I have read the Vedanasamyutta again. As far as I can make out > (asking for guidance here please) it is the Arahant who breaks the > chain of Paticcasamuppada at Vedana. To get to that point is a long > journey yet for we worldlings, and the power of Vedana is attenuated > by differing levels of enlightenment, before finally being broken. > (Not something that one is likely to do at an annual ten day retreat, > or in the hour before breakfast). > http://web.ukonline.co.uk/buddhism/ariyas4.htm > Is it a *real* possibility for anyone who has not gone forth? > > What do you reckon? > > metta, > Christine 19989 From: Sarah Date: Sun Mar 2, 2003 1:40am Subject: RE: [dsg] Height of the Buddha (was: Janice's letter (long posts with Jataka tale) Hi Kom & All, One more piece of info to add to the puzzle. Sarah ==================================================== Jim:>>I have read over two of your posts on the hattha question. I found a Pali passage in the tika on the Vinayapitaka commentary which I have pasted at the bottom. It's about the measurement of a Sugata's span (sugatavidatthi). It is equivalent to three spans of a medium-sized person (a span = 12 fingers or approx. 9"). A carpenter's hand = 2 spans or 18" and a Sugata's span = one and a half carpenter's hands or 27". If the height of the Buddha of 18 hands is measured in carpenter's hands we come up with 27'. So he must have been quite the giant! Have you ever seen or do you know how big his tooth is at the Tooth Temple in Kandy? I can well imagine a person of that size must've had very large teeth. I calculate the width of a finger to be 2.25". ================= Tathaa hi "sugatavidatthi naama idaani majjhimassa purisassa tisso vidatthiyo, va.d.dhakiihatthena diya.d.dho hattho hotii"ti ku.tikaarasikkhaapada.t.thakathaaya.m (paaraa. a.t.tha. 2.348-349) vutta.m, tasmaa sugata"ngulena dvaadasa"ngula.m va.d.dhakiihatthena diya.d.dho hatthoti siddha.m. Evañca katvaa sugata"ngulena a.t.tha"ngula.m va.d.dhakiihatthappamaa.nanti ida.m aagatamevaati. -- Sp-.t 2.386 (CSCD)<< 19990 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sun Mar 2, 2003 2:26am Subject: Soteriology Hi RobM, You may have some confusing conversations if you don't define the meaning up front. Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary (1913): 1. Soteriology - A discourse on health, or the science of promoting and preserving health. 2. (Theol.) The doctrine of salvation by Jesus Christ. metta, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult " wrote: > Hi Connie, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "connie" > wrote: > > I don't know about 'soteriological', though... > > every time I see that word it's a toss up as to whether I'm going > to > > look it up yet again or just ignore it. > > A while back, I bought a book, "The Five Aggregates - Understanding > Theravada Psychology and Soteriology". Like you, I had no idea > what "Soteriology" meant. Even after reading some of the book, I > still had no idea. Eventually, curiosity got the better of me and I > looked it up in the dictionary. It wasn't there. So I hauled out my > BIG dictionary (2000 pages, the dictionary I use when I play > Scrabble) and found it. It is a theological term meaning the > doctrine of salvation. In a Buddhist context, I take it as meaning > dependent origination. > > Since then, I have tried to work the word into conversations > whenever I could (not too many opportunities... my reply to your > message was my first). Now we both know the word and can use it > freely in our exchanges to sound erudite to "the uninitiated"! :-) > > Metta, > Rob M :-) 19991 From: robmoult Date: Sun Mar 2, 2003 3:37am Subject: Re: Soteriology Hi Christine, I used Oxford, 1995. Perhaps the difference is US (Webster) vs. English (Oxford) or perhaps the difference is 1913 vs. 1995. Metta, Rob M :-) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth " wrote: > Hi RobM, > > You may have some confusing conversations if you don't define the > meaning up front. > > Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary (1913): > 1. Soteriology - A discourse on health, or the science of promoting > and preserving health. > 2. (Theol.) The doctrine of salvation by Jesus Christ. > > metta, > Christine > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult " > wrote: > > Hi Connie, > > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "connie" > > wrote: > > > I don't know about 'soteriological', though... > > > every time I see that word it's a toss up as to whether I'm going > > to > > > look it up yet again or just ignore it. > > > > A while back, I bought a book, "The Five Aggregates - Understanding > > Theravada Psychology and Soteriology". Like you, I had no idea > > what "Soteriology" meant. Even after reading some of the book, I > > still had no idea. Eventually, curiosity got the better of me and I > > looked it up in the dictionary. It wasn't there. So I hauled out my > > BIG dictionary (2000 pages, the dictionary I use when I play > > Scrabble) and found it. It is a theological term meaning the > > doctrine of salvation. In a Buddhist context, I take it as meaning > > dependent origination. > > > > Since then, I have tried to work the word into conversations > > whenever I could (not too many opportunities... my reply to your > > message was my first). Now we both know the word and can use it > > freely in our exchanges to sound erudite to "the uninitiated"! :- ) > > > > Metta, > > Rob M :-) 19992 From: Star Kid Date: Sun Mar 2, 2003 4:57am Subject: Re:Kom's letter Dear Kom. Thanks for your letter about rebirth. It's interesting and I would like to ask how can we know which existence we will belong to in our next life? Why does somebody say that they have ever seen a ghost? Do they really have a pair of eyes which are specially different from ours? In the last two weeks, I read a book called "Ten Lives of the Buddha", the story in the book were written two thousand years ago! The pictures enclosed inside were some old temple paintings from Thailand. Although this book is meaningful, I can't find a way to solve my problem which happened yesterday. When I went home yesterday, I started a seriuos quarrel with my mother, she didn't allow me to go to school today (Saturday) to do my artwork, but I really needed to do it, if not i would be scolded by my art teacher. At first, I was using a very good attutide to talk to my mother, however, when my mother said I was wrong, I started to use a bad attitude. So I would like to ask how can the Buddhist stories help these kind of problem. From Kimmy 19993 From: Star Kid Date: Sun Mar 2, 2003 5:02am Subject: I understand Dear James, It would be amazing to know that you are going to teach in Cairo, Eygpt. I went to Cairo a few years ago and it was very hot there. I am also quite sad about your brother's death. Are you the only one left in your family? Now I understand more about the temple! What can you do there besides from mediating? Do you stay for a couple of weeks? Was it peaceful there? What else do you do to become a Buddhist besides from what you have explained to everyone? As always please send a poem!( You do not need to send me so much or else you will run out of them soon! Metta, Janice 19994 From: nidive Date: Sun Mar 2, 2003 6:31am Subject: Re: Comfort Hi RobertK, > Let me try again. If you are not tired with me... > "Because the functions of the elements give rise to the concepts of > continuity, collection and form, the ideas arise: > 1)the initial effort that has to be exerted when a > deed is about to be performed and > 2) the care that has to be taken while the deed is being performed to > its completion and this leads to the subsequent ideas > 3)"I can perform" and 4) "I can feel". Thus these four imaginary > characteristic functions of being have bought about a deep-rooted belief > in their existence. I do not understand how "conceit" and "personality belief" can be called ideas. I know that "conceit" is a cetasika and not an idea. I know that "personality belief" is a cetasika and not an idea. How are "effort" and "care" imaginary characteristics? I don't think my effort and care to write you this letter is an imaginery characteristic. It is as real as the khandas as it can be. I don't think the effort and care expended by the Buddha to teach his Disciples is an imaginary characteristic. > But the elements have not the time or span of duration to carry out > such functions" .endquote In that case, the "conceit" cetasika and "personality belief" cetasika cannot effect the phenomena called "conceit" and "personality belief" respectively then. > Cetana simply performs its function of coordinating without any self > doing anything. It is present for an infinitely short time and then > falls away and another arises which performs its function. It cannot > do anything other than perform its function. Is coordinating the only function of cetana? I hope I did not misread you. > But because of continuity there is a belief, a vipallasa, perversion > of perception, that believes there is somewhere , somehow a controller > of the whole complex. I do not understand how this continuity can result in "personality belief". It it because of this continuity that magga and then phala arises. It is because of this continuity that the Noble Eightfold Path can be perfected. If it is because of this continuity that there arises "personality belief", then there can be no escape from samsara. The Buddha could not rightly proclaim his Lion's Roar. What is the actual root cause of "personality belief"? > there are only elements arising and ceasing and performing their many > different functions which - like a brilliant puppet show - delude one > into thinking there is some special element behind it all. Is it the case that the arising and ceasing of the elements performing their different functions the actual root cause of this delusion? > He writes that in fact all elements, including cetana disapear so > fast: "The elements..arise and cease within a very short > time. In the wink of an eye or a flash of lightning the mental > elements arise and cease a trillion times.`This is just an > estimate . the subcommentary takes an even higher figure....." If the elements have not the time or span of duration to carry out the "I can perform" or "I can feel", then I do not see how these can survive in the first place. For without the elements, there cannot be the . > This is conventional language. In the Atthasalini it notes that the monks who > are reciters of the suttanta (the second basket which includes the 5nikayas) > may come to wrong view because in the suttas they often talk about beings > and things. In reality there are simply dhammas arising and passing, > utterly conditioned. It seems that the Buddha liked to perform linguistic acrobatics... really? Isn't the Buddha speaking in "conventional language" when he said in Samyutta Nikaya XXII.59: And it is not possible [to say] with regard to consciousness, 'Let MY consciousness be thus. Let MY consciousness not be thus.' The Buddha is basically performing linguistic acrobatics all over the Suttas. What gives? > You seem to believe that the sutta (Anatta lakkhana)... supports your idea that: > Control and directing of mind states is not a belief.........,snip> I have already explained the context in which the statement 'Let my consciousness be thus. Let my consciousness not be thus.' was said. It means 'Let my consciousness remain forever. Let my consciousness not come to dissolution.'. I have also explained the context in which the statement 'If consciousness were the self, this consciousness would not lend itself to dis-ease.'. It means that 'This consciousness which is inconstant, stressful, subject to change is not-self.'. This is elucidated later on in the sutta. "What do you think, monks -- Is consciousness constant or inconstant?" "Inconstant, lord." "And is that which is inconstant easeful or stressful?" "Stressful, lord." "And is it fitting to regard what is inconstant, stressful, subject to change as: 'This is mine. This is my self. This is what I am'?" http://www.abhidhamma.org/samyutta_nikaya_59xxii.htm I also provided another sutta quote to support the meaning of the statement 'Let my consciousness be thus. Let my consciousness not be thus.': 58. "Yet, Ananda, have I not taught from the very beginning that with all that is dear and beloved there must be change, separation, and severance? Of that which is born, come into being, is compounded and subject to decay, how can one say: 'May it not come to dissolution!' There can be no such state of things. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/digha/dn16.html The five aggregates can never be willed not to dissolute. This is an impossiblity. Yet, to suit your own agenda of "no control", you have perversed the very meaning of this statement. > The literal translation of the Anatta lakkhana sutta is "the characteristic > of not-self" and that characteristic is no control. > ""The mode of insusceptibility to having power exercised over > them is the characteristic of no-self.""Sammohavinodani Sammohavinodani (whatever that is, I have not come across this funny name) did not say "characteristic of no control". That is your own extrapolation. The statement "the mode of insusceptibility to having power exercised over them" must be understood in the context of what was said. And what did Sarah say? For the fully Englightened One, when teaching the characteristic of no-self, teaches it by means of the impermanent, or by means of suffering, or by means of (both) the impermanent and suffering." This means that there can be no power that can be exercised over the impermanent and dukkha elements such that they become permanent and non-dukkha. This is an impossibility. In reference to this was this statement uttered. This impossibility manifests the characterisitc of no-self. It dawns on me that our understanding of the Abhidhamma could be so different. It feels so sad, but what can I expect? Regards, NEO Swee Boon 19995 From: abhidhammika Date: Sun Mar 2, 2003 6:33am Subject: Re: Sanna - Looking for feedback! Dear Robert M How are you? Your post on the participation of sa~n~naa (memory) in the processes of perceptual consciousness (pa~ncadvaaraviithi, five-door cognitive road) and in the processes of conceptual consciousness (manodvaaraviithi, mind-door cognitive road) is fantastic. Please kindly note that I use the term "concept" as meaning any object or stimulus of mind-door cognitive road. That is to say, whenever I use the term "concept", concept refers to both realities (paramattha dhammaa) and conventions or designations (pa~n~natti dhammaa). Thus, we can simplify types of viithi by grouping them into the perceptual consciousnesses (for five-door cognitive road) and the conceptual consciousnesses (for mind-door cognitive road). Perceptual consciousness would process percepts while conceptual consciousness would process concepts. Your presentation of dot matrix or digital processing of visual data is very much in line with how ancient Theravada Buddhist commentators understood and explained the issue. As you might have already learnt the subject from the works of authors like Shwe Zan Aung, digital processing of perceptual data involves vitthi types beyond initial five-door cognitive roads. I call these viithi types the follow-up mind-door cognitive roads (Tadanuvattika manodvaaravitthi) or follow-up conceptual consciousnesses. As you already know, since memory (sa~n~naa) participates in every consciousness, every step of the perceptual consciousness processing and the follow-up conceptual consciousnesses would utilize memory. Thus, the whole process of coming to know a percept as we know it (a face, for example) exploits both perceptual consciousnesses and conceptual consciousnesses as many as necessary and utilizes instances of memory chains in all of them. The implication of this abhidhamma psychology is, as you might guess it, that the world of percepts (sights, sounds, smells, tastes, and touches) are the end results of mental constructions. With kind regards, Suan Lu Zaw --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult " wrote: > Hi All, > > Over the past week, I have been reading a lot about sanna (lots of > airplane time). Following is my current understanding pieced > together from a number of sources. Please let me know if you > disagree with anything that I have said. > ================ > > Looking forward to your feedback! > > Metta, > Rob M :-) 19996 From: Date: Sun Mar 2, 2003 3:04am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sanna - Looking for feedback! Hi, Rob - The overall thrust of what you write here sounds most plausible to me. The only essential question I have about it is the idea that a single visual arammana is a dot of color. That, in fact, was exactly how I first thought about this, with the idea that the mind then "connects the dots". However, when I asked about it once, someone thenon the list told me that, no, a visual object is the entire "snapshot" that appears at one moment, for example when one opens the eyes - so that sa~n~na then subsequently carves out and identifies parts of what is already entirely present). I have no axe to grind in his matter. As far as I'm concerned, the mattter is simply as it is. But there does seem to be a difference in perspective here. With metta, Howard In a message dated 3/2/03 12:58:34 AM Eastern Standard Time, rob.moult@j... writes: > Hi All, > > Over the past week, I have been reading a lot about sanna (lots of > airplane time). Following is my current understanding pieced > together from a number of sources. Please let me know if you > disagree with anything that I have said. > > ======= > > The cittas in an eye-door citta process have "visible object" (rupa) > as their object. A "visible object" is not a flower (flower is a > concept). A visible object is a dot, a dot of colour. As an analogy, > consider how television works. What appears on the screen is not > a "flower", but rather many coloured dots that our mind constructs > into an image of a "flower". The TV set simply presents dots to us > and our mind does the rest. > > The eye-door citta process is followed by some bhavanga cittas and > then a mind-door citta process arises, which takes a concept as > object. The object of this first mind-door citta process after the > eye-door citta process is the "mental image" of the visible object. > The characteristic of the visible object (red, blue, etc.) > was "marked" by the cetasika sanna in the cittas of the eye-door > citta process.. This characteristic is noted by the cetasika sanna > in the cittas of the first mind-door citta process to mark the > mental image (concept) of a coloured dot. > > The eye-door citta process now takes in another visible object > (another dot) and a mental image (concept) of the second coloured > dot is marked by the cetasika sanna. This is followed by more eye- > door citta process, each with a mind-door citta process. > > When sufficient "dots" have been processed, a mind-door citta > process with a concept of blocks of colour and shading is perceived. > Blocks of colour and shading are marked by the cetasika sanna in the > cittas of the mind-door citta process. > > It is the cetasika sanna which "recognizes" these marked blocks and > the concept of shape or form becomes the object of more mind-door > citta processes. This is followed by the critical step of naming > or "designation". The shape or form, is marked as an object of a > mind-door citta process. Subsequent mind-door citta processes note > this marking and "remember" the name of "flower". > > It would appear that dots, blocks of colour / shading and shapes > are "short-term" memories, available to provide continuity, but not > used for "long-term memory. It would appear that long-term memories > are tied to naming and this is why we cannot remember our early > childhood (before we learned names for things). > > The Suttas explain that sanna creates concepts. We have seen that > the sense-door citta process a small, elemental bit of information > and the subsequent mind-door citta processes process this into > increasingly complex concepts: > - Dots --> Blocks of colour --> Shapes --> Names > > It is the role of the cetasika sanna to provide the "glue" that > provides continuity by marking objects from one citta process and > recognizing the marked objects in the subsequent mind-door citta > process. The cetasika sanna also provides the "glue" that allows > mental objects to become increasingly complex by recognizing mental > objects and associating them with other concepts in first short-term > and then in long-term memory. > > It is important to note that this "recognition" is superficial. The > commentary gives the analogy of a blind man touching the head on an > elephant and saying "an elephant is like a big kettle" while another > blind man touches the ear and says "an elephant is like a big fan". > The association used by sanna is superficial, without wisdom > (panna). The association used by sanna is brief, like lightning. > Unlike panna, sanna does not penetrate the true nature of the object. > > The building of the concept does not stop with "naming". Long term > memory stores names with their associated feeling (pleasant, > unpleasant, neutral). Along with the name, sanna also "remembers" > the associated feeling. This stage of judgment is what completes the > link between feeling and craving in dependent origination. > > Craving is conditioned by pleasant feeling associated with concepts. > Visible objects condition neutral feeling and therefore do not > condition craving directly. Pleasant feeling is associated with > current concepts when sanna "remembers" past concepts and the > associated pleasant feeling. > > This progression is described in the Honeyball Sutta (Mn18): > > ----- > > Dependent on the eye and forms, eye consciousness arises. The > meeting of the three is contact. With contact as a condition there > is feeling. > > What one feels, that one perceives. What one perceives, that one > thinks about. What one thinks about, that one obsesses. > > What obsesses one is the cause perceptions and notions tinged by > obsession that beset a man with respect to past, future and present > forms cognizable though the eye. > > ----- > > The first paragraph explains how feeling arises naturally and > objectively from contact. The key to understanding the second > paragraph comes from the commentary, which explains that "perceives" > should be interpreted as meaning "naming" (the Sanskrit equivalent > of sanna, samjna, means "name"). The wording of the second paragraph > makes it clear that the process of naming, "thinking about" and > obsession (papancasanna) is a subjective process. > > Visible objects with neutral feeling give rise to names (concepts) > and it is these concepts which inherit pleasant feeling from the > past memory (courtesy of sanna). The pleasant feeling conditions > craving and, as explained in the third paragraph of the Honeyball > Sutta, this conditions dukkha (and by extension, ties us to samsara). > > The Vibhanga (second book of the Abhidhamma Pitaka) classifies sanna > as unwholesome (akusala), wholesome (kusala) and neutral. Whenever > something is sensed, it is also recognized. Sanna always accompanies > and follows vedana, but depending on the orientation of sanna, one > may generate craving or start generating wisdom (by remembering the > characteristics of existence; anicca, dukkha and anatta). > > According to the Suttas, unwholesome sanna conditions the arising of > views (such as the personality view, sakaya-ditthi, based on > ignorance), sorrow and obsession. > > Sanna can also be wholesome (kusala) when it is geared towards the > recognition of elements essential for liberation. When înanda > reported that a monk was sick, the Buddha told înanda to recite > the "ten sanna" in front of the monk to condition kusala thoughts in > the monk. The ten sanna are: > - The recognition of impermanence (aniccasanna) > - The recognition of selflessness (anattasanna) > - The recognition of unpleasantness (asubhasanna) > - The recognition of danger (Adinavasanna) > - The recognition of abandoning (pahanasanna) > - The recognition of dispassion (viragasanna) > - The recognition of cessation (nirodhasanna) > - The recognition of disenchantment with the entire world > (sabbaloke anabhiratasanna) > - The recognition of impermanence in reference to all compounded > things (sabbe sankharesu aniccasanna) > - The mindfulness of breathing (Anapanasati) > > Just as sanna is between feeling (vedana) and craving (taöha) in the > chain of dependent origination, whenever the five aggregates are > listed, sanna is always listed between feeling and sankhara > (sankhara includes craving). > > ================ > > Looking forward to your feedback! > > Metta, > Rob M :-) > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 19997 From: Date: Sun Mar 2, 2003 3:24am Subject: Re: [dsg] Height of the Buddha (was: Janice's letter (long posts with Jataka ... Hi, Sarah (and Kom and Jim) - Not to be offensive, but merely to be a bit skeptical of matters such as this: I wonder whether Siddhattha was this way only after becoming the Buddha or whether he was this gigantic size prior to the conception of Rahula! To me, this claim of three times normal size is an absurdity. I don't believe it to be literally true. However, there could be a *germ* of truth in the claim. He might well have been quite large even at birth. Didn't his mother die during or shortly after the birth if Siddhattha? Could this have been due to his being an unusually large newborn? With metta, Howard In a message dated 3/2/03 4:41:35 AM Eastern Standard Time, sarahdhhk@y... writes: > > Hi Kom &All, > > One more piece of info to add to the puzzle. Sarah > ==================================================== > > Jim:>>I have read over two of your posts on the hattha question. I found a > Pali passage in the tika on the Vinayapitaka commentary which I have > pasted at the bottom. It's about the measurement of a Sugata's span > (sugatavidatthi). It is equivalent to three spans of a medium-sized person > (a span = 12 fingers or approx. 9"). A carpenter's hand = 2 spans or 18" > and a Sugata's span = one and a half carpenter's hands or 27". If the > height of the Buddha of 18 hands is measured in carpenter's hands we come > up with 27'. So he must have been quite the giant! Have you ever seen or > do you know how big his tooth is at the Tooth Temple in Kandy? I can well > imagine a person of that size must've had very large teeth. I calculate > the width of a finger to be 2.25". > > ================= > Tathaa hi "sugatavidatthi naama idaani majjhimassa purisassa tisso > vidatthiyo, va.d.dhakiihatthena diya.d.dho hattho hotii"ti > ku.tikaarasikkhaapada.t.thakathaaya.m (paaraa. a.t.tha. 2.348-349) > vutta.m, tasmaa sugata"ngulena dvaadasa"ngula.m va.d.dhakiihatthena > diya.d.dho hatthoti siddha.m. Evañca katvaa sugata"ngulena > a.t.tha"ngula.m va.d.dhakiihatthappamaa.nanti ida.m aagatamevaati. -- > Sp-.t > 2.386 (CSCD)<< > > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 19998 From: buddhatrue Date: Sun Mar 2, 2003 8:03am Subject: Re: A reply --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Star Kid wrote: > > Dear James: > > How are you, I didn't mind if your letter is late but > just please reply to me. Have you been ill? I've been > ill for a few days.Hope you are fine. > Why do people want the Buddhist temple to be near? > Why do they need help from it? Please write to me. > > From Janet Hi Star Kid Janet! I have been a little sick but nothing too serious; dealing with a head cold from all of the rainy, cold weather. It still isn't completely gone, but it has gotten better. I am sorry that you have been sick also. I hope you are better. Okay, let's move on to your questions. You ask, "Why do people want the Buddhist temple to be near? Why do they need help from it?" This is again one of these deceptively simple questions that isn't so simple at all. I will try to explain the best way that I can, but it is going to take another long letter… sorry ;-). Janet, everyone in the world is at a different level in their `karma learning'; just as there are different levels in school, people have different levels of lifetimes they have lived and learned from. Just like in school, sometimes they `fail' in a particular life and so they have to repeat it, sometimes hundreds of time, sometimes they are right on track and sometimes they are so advanced that they are placed several grades ahead of the others in a short time, like a `child genius' of dharma. The Buddhist temple is like a school and everyone who is there is there for different reasons that involve learning about life. Some are there to teach and to learn by teaching (the monks), some have just started, some are just average and some know a lot and so they help the others and the teachers. Human nature is such that we often want to compete, just like in school. In school, students try to get the best grades and most everyone wants to be at the top of the class (even if they admit it or not). But Buddhism isn't like that because if you compete against others to be more `advanced' or `wise' than them or if you brag about how `special' you are because of your wisdom (panna) that will actually make your fail a grade! You have to want to advance in wisdom because that is just what you naturally need to do; and you don't want to be better, the same, or worse than anyone else. You want everyone to succeed according to their abilities. And the Lord Buddha, who was the supreme teacher, taught to each person according to their abilities and didn't expect for everyone to be the same. Therefore, he taught about generosity (dana), loving-kindness (metta), and wisdom (panna). So, keeping this in mind let me explain a little bit about why various people go to a Buddhist temple. Those who are beginners in the school of dharma go to the temple to learn and practice generosity (dana). They give donations and food to the monks and the temple in order to gain what is called `merit'. This will allow them to be reborn into a more pleasant and happy life. They have no desire to become a monk or a Buddha and even the idea is way beyond them. They often look at the monks and the Lord Buddha as `god- like', just as little children look at adults as being `god-like'. There is nothing wrong with this and it is part of the natural process. Some look down on those who worship the Buddha and the monks and judge them as being `wrong' in their practice, but these worshippers are not doing anything wrong. They are doing what is natural for them to do. Everyone starts at this level so there is no need to judge. Those who are in the middle go to the temple to learn and practice loving-kindness (metta). They keep the original generosity that they learned (dana) but they add on the desire to learn to live a better and more loving life. They don't look to the monks or the Lord Buddha as god-like, but they don't really aim to become like them either…that is still beyond them. They want to learn how best to have a happy home and family in this lifetime and often go to the monks to ask advice and read dharma to feel more peaceful. They don't think so much about gaining merit to be reborn into a happier life, and start to realize what it means to be `selfless'. This is where most Buddhists are and it is the most confusing place to be…like adolescence! ;-) The Buddhist practice and temple attendance of these people go through many ups and downs as they figure out life and their place in it. Those who are in the final stage go to the temple to learn and practice wisdom (panna). They keep the original generosity and metta that they already learned, but they add on to that the desire to learn all that there is to know (panna). They don't look to the monks or the Buddha as being god-like or even an unattainable goal; they want to be just like the Lord Buddha and know that they could be if they practice correctly. These people want to learn how to have a `truly' happy life, and they start to lose interest in having a home or a family. They see that life is more than those things and that those things can interfere with discovering the full truth. They are the monks of the temple (most of the monks) or those who are very similar to the monks. This is also a difficult place to be because it is very painful. It is painful to give up everything that was once held dear and to face the strong isolation that comes from being so separated from society. But this pain is overcome as the poverty and solitude are embraced and relished. The rewards of wisdom (panna) bring a type of happiness that goes beyond what others experience. Most everyone wants to get to the stage (even if they admit it or not) but it is just as natural as the first stage and it can't be rushed. The Lord Buddha taught about all these different stages of people. He wasn't in any of the stages…he was enlightened. He was one who had `gone beyond'. Well, I hope this long letter explains well enough for you. Janet, don't worry about what stage you are in or wish that you were in a higher stage. Just be happy where you are and work with what you have right now. Buddhism is good in the beginning, the middle, and the end. No stage is better than the others. Take care and keep doing well in school! :-) Love, James 19999 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Sun Mar 2, 2003 9:23am Subject: RE: [dsg] Height of the Buddha (was: Janice's letter (long posts with Jataka ... Dear Howard, > -----Original Message----- > From: upasaka@a... [mailto:upasaka@a...] > > Hi, Sarah (and Kom and Jim) - > > Not to be offensive, but merely to be a > bit skeptical of matters such > as this: I wonder whether Siddhattha was this way > only after becoming the > Buddha or whether he was this gigantic size prior > to the conception of > Rahula! Do you know that other Buddha's characteristics (according to the texts) include: 1) Having strengths measured in thousands of elephants 2) Being able to flex a bow even a thousand men combined cannot flex 3) Seeing a fine spot 7 (or 16?) Kilometers away in darkness 4) Having a tongue so large it can cover his face > To me, this claim of three times normal > size is an absurdity. I don't > believe it to be literally true. However, there All I can say in this matter is, as best as we can understand the measurements in the text, the text may imply that he is this size. We obviously cannot prove any of this. Your skepticism is not at all surprising. Many people would be. > could be a *germ* of truth in > the claim. He might well have been quite large > even at birth. Didn't his > mother die during or shortly after the birth if > Siddhattha? Could this have > been due to his being an unusually large newborn? > > Ah, but you have you seen the story of his birth also? He was born, with his feet out first, without any of the impurity (blood, etc.) on him, while his mother was standing, and then walked 7 steps on top of spontaneously blooming lotuses and made proclamation of his greatness and this being his last rebirth. I get the impression from the description that giving birth was rather effortless. Her death is attributed to be traditional of all Buddha's mothers. I personally wouldn't even press for these issues (hadn't it come up in a question!). Some people, will believe this, some won't, and some will do neither. kom