22800 From: Sarah Date: Wed Jun 11, 2003 0:07am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: TEST QUESTION Hi RobM (Yasa and Ken H in passing), Like Kom and Larry, I thought your test reply was very neatly written and while I’m in appreciation mode, I also thought your post (225380) on ‘Cetasikas in Lobha-mula cittas’ was very clear and well-presented. When you raised the question before about conceit and wrong view, I meant to chip in. Your recent reply reminded me of this: --- robmoult wrote: > We can see why manna (conceit) and ditthi (wrong view) cannot arise > in the same citta; manna has the nature of dividing and comparing > whereas ditthi has the nature of generalizing. We can also see why a > Sotapanna has eliminated ditthi while mana is not eliminated until > one is an Arahant; the Sotapanna, Sakadagami and Anagami know that > namas and rupas are not self, but still compare "their namas and > rupas" with "others' namas and rupas". .... I think of mana (conceit) as indicative of clinging to self or finding oneself important. This morning I was admiring a friend’s outfit. So many different mental states involved at these brief moments including lobha, some muditaa (being glad for her), but also brief moments of maana as quick flashes (certainly not verbalised thoughts) of me and my outfit were compared. I’m sure what seems like subtle conceit to me now would not seem subtle at all to developed wisdom. Btw, I liked this quote Yasa gave before, but I wonder if Yasa or anyone else knows where in the scriptures the python simile is: “According to scriptures, "a prominent aspect of conceit is stiffness and rigidity. One''s mind feels stiff and bloated, like a python that has just swallowed some other creature. This aspect of mana is also reflected as tension in the body and posture. Its victims get big-headed and a thus may find it difficult to bow respectfully to others. It, destroys gratitude, making it difficult to acknowledge that one owes any kind of debt to another person…..one also actively conceals the virtues of others so that no one will hold them in esteem." (In this Very Life by Sayadaw U Pandita)” It may not seem that the conceit arising while admiring another’s outfit has the characteristic of ‘stiffness and rigidity’ like the python, but I have no doubt that to developed insight it would seem as gross as some obvious conceit might seem to us now. Of course, as we know, the comparisons made may be quite accurate conventionally - X really may be richer or taller than Y. The conceit can arise regardless. I think of ditthi (wrong view) as indicative of a twisted outlook such as when there is the idea that a self or thing really exists or when a concept is taken for a reality. Other common examples might be taking akusala for kusala (eg good attachment or anger) or when there is the idea that akusala doesn’t matter anyway or won’t be accumulated or bring results. You’ve given all the detail, but I think the distinct characteristics can be known. Btw, in the post on lobha-mula cittas which I referred to above, there were just a couple of small points I wished to question. You mentioned that ‘for most people, lobha is the most common citta’. I would have thought cittas rooted in moha (ignorance) would be most common - we know all akusala cittas are accompanied by moha, but even between all those rooted in lobha and dosa, there are many just rooted in moha and accompanied by uddhacca (restlessness). Do you have any reference for this? The other small detail related at the end to thina (sloth) and middha (torpor). You wrote that ‘cittas with thina and middha are passive whereas cittas without thina and middha are active and spontaneous’. It’s true that we read about laziness and lack of energy and so on with regard to these mental factors, but I think we need to be clear that it is only kusala viriya (energy) that is lacking or prevented. An arahant may be tired physically and sleep, but no thina and middha. Conversely, there may be thina and middha with ditthi (wrong view) or mana (conceit) or other unwholesome, ‘prompted’ cittas when we’re wide awake and active. Your comment may be referring to ‘prompted’(sasankharika) vs ‘unprompted’ (asankharika). I thought this paragraphfrom Way100 (Satipatthana Sutta Comy on viriya (energy) was interesting: “The avoiding of lazy folk is the avoiding of people without physical and mental energy who are like a rock-snake lying inert after a full feed. And the association with folk who have begun to exert themselves is mixing with those whose minds are turned towards and who are endeavoring for the attainment of Nibbana. Inclination towards the development of this enlightenment factor is the inclining, sloping and bending of the mind towards right exertion in all postures of sitting, standing and so forth. The enlightenment factor that arises in this way comes to completion by culture through the path of arahantship.” Again the ‘right exertion’ has to be the viriya accompanied by panna, regardless of action or position. As I said, pls take any comments I raise as being minor quibbles and not meant to detract from some of these excellent posts. You were also discussing with Ken H on ditthi and mana. You were discussing right view arising for an arahant and taking concepts as object. I think we have to remember there are different kinds of right view or panna, i.e right view that accompanies moments of samatha that usually take concepts as object, such as the virtues of the Buddha or death and so on and right view which accompanies moments of satipatthana only taking paramattha dhammas as object. In adition, dana (generosity) and sila (morality) may or may not accompanied by panna and also have concepts as object. As we know, if the cittas in the javana process are not concerned with dana, sila or bhavana then they are akusala. So, I assume all these cittas for the arahant must be concerned with dana, sila or bhavana and that even those concerned with dana and sila would all be accompanied by pa~n~na too, though I’m not certain about this last point and will be glad to hear any corrections. Quite a complex subject. As you responded to Ken H, conceit and wrong view both take concepts as object. Once again, thank you for your inspiring posts. I also appreciated your summary of Dr K Sri Dhammananda’s booklet and your post on the Cetana Sutta which the Cooran group raised. With metta, Sarah ===== P.S. When I read about generosity in the series on ‘Perfections’, I thought of some of your kind examples in daily life: “When we give, we should not expect anything in return, and moreover, we should not think of giving as being tedious, we should not give without cheerfulness and generosity, we should give wholeheartedly. We need to have subtle and detailed knowledge of our cittas so that defilements can be eliminated. When we see someone else’s generosity, we can rejoice in his good deed, we can feel enthusiasm about it.” ============================== 22801 From: Sarah Date: Wed Jun 11, 2003 1:17am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Lee- nibbana and sabhava --- To Mike: Solemn Utterance Hi Lee, Sorry for being slow again. I know you’ve considered the texts deeply, so don’t wish to rush back when I’m ‘everywhere at once’ which is the norm;-) I also try to understand your viewpoint. Leaving aside the aspects which we agree on: --- Lee Dillion wrote: L: > I agree that "Nibbana does not ‘partake’ of any sphere of existence" - > that, instead, it is a psychological state whereby we have resolved all > fabrications. ... I’m sorry but the last phrase doesn’t make any sense to me. Perhaps you can elaborate further in your own words. ..... L: >Thus, to speak of this experience as born, orgiginated, > created, etc. is to make a category error. ..... I think it’s important, nonetheless, to distinguish between the cittas (consciousness process) involved and the unconditioned, non-born etc reality, nibbana, which is experienced at moments of enlightenment. I wonder if you accept this distinction? ..... L: > I am familiar with the commentary on the word All, but not sure how it > allows us to speculate beyong the All. I think I am misunderstanding > your point, so any clarification would be helpful. ..... I may have misunderstood your comment before when you mentioned not speculating beyond ‘the all’. I merely was clarifying that ‘nibbana’ was included in ‘the all’ to be known as I understand. I agree, however, that speculation about it is still of limited value;-) ..... L: > I suspect we could argue this back and forth and that is not my intent - > my only purpose is to suggest that there are understandings of the > dhamma that are consistent with sutta, mainstream within Theravada, and > that minimize ontological speculation about what Nibbana is. Consistent > with this are the comments of Bhikkhu Nanananda from his sermons on > Nibbana at http://www.beyondthenet.net/calm/clm_main1.htm ..... Hmmm - to be honest I really don’t know much about what is ‘mainstream within Theravada’ today. I do think though, that the Tipitaka as a whole and the commentaries are what have been carefully preserved by the Theravada communities from the time of the Buddha and shortly after his parinibbana. What we can read now is a result of these indefatigable efforts. I appreciate, however, that for many people the commentaries and Abhidhamma do not square with the way they read the suttas and as you say, we may have to let this one rest for now. ..... L:> ---- > "The cessation of consciousness is none other than Nibbàna. > > Some seem to think that the cessation of consciousness oc-curs in an > arahant only at the moment of his parinibbàna, at the end of his life > span. But this is not the case. Very often, the deeper meanings of > important suttas have been obliterated by the tendency to interpret the > references to consciousness in such contexts as the final occur-rence of > consciousness in an arahant's life - carimaka vi??àõa.[10] > > What is called the cessation of consciousness has a deeper sense here. > It means the cessation of the specifically prepared conscious-ness, > abhisaïkhata vi??àõa. An arahant's experience of the cessa-tion of > consciousness is at the same time the experi-ence of the cessa-tion of > name-and-form." > > from part 4 of the Nibbana Sermons ..... I may be lost. Usually, I think, that when there are references to ‘cessation’, it is to parinibbana, though there can be temporary cessation of all consciousness (nirodhasamapatti) for the anagami or arahant that has attained all 8 jhanas. I agree with the first paragraph that we need to be careful about comments in context. In the Udana passage on nibbana we were discussing, however, clearly it is a description of nibbana being discussed. I think it’s also important to remember that for an arahant namas and rupas continue as usual, as do the results of previous kamma. Just no conditions for new kamma to arise. ..... L: > Whether there is something "more" to Nibbana following the death of the> Arahant, I don't know, and to argue about it given the rudimentary place > I am on the path seems beyond my current abilities. ..... I’m rather out of my depth too. Basically, try as I might, the comments of Nanananda on nibbana make little sense to me I’m sorry to say. ..... S:> > but we are here to discuss and explore rather than to just agree. > L:> Yes. That is why I like this list. It presents a viewpoint that is > often at odds with my own, yet it is a viewpoint that pushes me to think > seriously about the dhamma. ..... I don’t feel I’m taking this discussion much further this time. ..... L: > Thanks. As the opportunity arises, I will try to explain myself in more > detail. ..... Good. I’m appreciating hearing your viewpoint here and in the other threads with Jon. You may like to view these posts from the archives (mostly Swee Boon’s) which contain other sutta references on this topic: ***** Nibbana as object of consciousness 18278, 18311, 18402, 18593, 18883, 18896 ***** I forget for now, Lee, how this thread started. Perhaps you could also share your interest in this subject and the relevance of it to practice as you see it. With metta, Sarah ====== 22802 From: Sarah Date: Wed Jun 11, 2003 3:06am Subject: Re: [dsg] importance of Meditation Hi Dave (& Azita), Thanks for all your feedback. Let me start with the comments you make at the end of your post - hope that’s OK: --- dwlemen wrote: > DAVE: > 1.) It seems that the theory is that we can only experience one thing > at a time (e.g. at a moment, we may experience seeing, but then no > touching, hearing, ... occurs). Why? I can see that we do "tune > out" stimulus coming at us, but it seems to me that we are able to > process multiple senses at once. When I pick up my cup of coffee, I > see it, feel it, and smell it, as well as think about it. It seems > like the mind would be quite a bottleneck for processing these > stimuli if it was a single processing system. ..... This is difficult because, as you say, it seems contrary to experience. As you say, it seems that we see, feel, smell and think about the coffee and furthermore that the coffee exists. If we hadn’t heard the Buddha’s teachings we would have no idea that in fact there is only one experience through one sense at a time, regardless of how distracted or ‘still’ we may be. There is no self involved to either do the experiencing or to process, stop or slow down or interact with experienced objects. There is no self to even plant the right conditions like the gardener either. You ask ‘why?’ and all I can say is that what the Buddha taught is an intricate description of the way it is. Obviously there must be some little inklings that there may be some truth in it, or we wouldn’t be here discussing these teachings. When you mention about the bottleneck, I think it’s easy for our conceptual reasoning to see it like this. We can discuss a lot of detail about the speed and complexity of the processing system, but miss the point about direct awareness of the reality appearing now. > 2.) In the tapes, they often talk about "reality." I'm not sure what > they mean by that phrase. Do they mean the actual, physical world, > our merely our perception of the physical world? ..... This comes back to the concepts vs realities discussions here. By ‘reality’ the Buddha is referring to phenomena that can be directly known as opposed to objects of conceptual reasoning. There are those realities which experience objects such as seeing, hearing, experiencing through the body, thinking and so on. There are also realities which accompany these kinds of consciousness such as feelings, likes and dislikes. There are also realities which are experienced and which have particular characteristics such as visible object, sound, heat and so on. So they are the actual mental and physical worlds at this moment. The perception of these worlds, such as ‘picking up a cup of coffee’ consists of many different realities which are blurred together in the mind into a concept or ‘whole’ which we take for being real. Working back through your comments (I’m not sure why I’m working backwards;-)), you ask how I see meditation. I understand bhavana (mditation) to refer to samatha (calm) and vipassana (insight) development. For any moments of true meditation, there has to be right understanding of the object and naturally the mental states must be wholesome. I say naturally, but most the time when we sit quietly cross-legged and focus on an object or try to calm the mind, the mental states may well not be wholesome at all, especially if there isn’t any understanding. This is why the understanding and awareness of realities is important - if they are not known, or if there is no detachment from what is experienced and our practice is motivated by attachment for particular states, then I’m not sure we can call those moments true bhavana or meditation . In other words, as I think you’ll now appreciate (but don’t need to agree with;-)), for me meditation would refer to a single moment with awareness and understanding either of one of the objects of samatha (calm) or to a moment of satipatthana which clearly knows a reality. You are right that I don’t see it in terms of the position or location, but in terms of the nature of consciousness, lasting a brief moment only. I think as Larry has been pointing out in his ‘test’ series, the defilements are far more prevalent than we may have imagined and therefore, moments of true ‘meditation’ are rare and precious. It seems to me that if we wish to eliminate other stimulation ‘so the mind will have less opportunity to jump around’, that there is a lurking idea of being able to control the mind or an idea that mindfulness will be easier at these times. For me, this would indicate a kind of desire for more mindfulness and a lack of confidence that mindfulness can really arise at any time or with any reality as object - even those we’d rather not experience, such as conceit! I think it comes back to our understanding of what the right conditions are or way to prepare the soil as you discuss in gardening mode;-). We need to know what the soil is in the first place. In the Visuddhimagga (XIV,32), we read under the section on the growth of wisdom: “How is it (wisdom) developed? Now the things classed as aggregates, bases, elements, faculties, truths, dependent origination, etc, are the ‘soil’ of this understanding.....” It continues to give a great amount of detail about these ingredients in the soil. In other words, when we talk about ‘understanding the teachings of the Buddha’, I believe it is these very ingredients - aggregates etc - that are to be known. How can these be known? By considering, discussing, reflecting and developing awareness of them. For some people this may be whilst rushing around following a busy schedule. For others it might be whilst sitting quietly with a single focus. It’ll just depend on the understanding as I think Azita pointed out clearly in her feedback from her retreat. OK, I’ve rambled on. It must be your turn to answer questions now!: 1. What importance do you give to the discussion of realities? 2. Do you see this as having any bearing on your meditation practice? 3. What are your comments on Azita’s retreat and particularly the aspect of clarifying the ‘correct teaching’ as an important support condition? 4. Do my comments on the way I see meditation here make any sense to you? With metta, Sarah p.s Azita - I was very glad and interested to hear your feed back! The silent retreat must have been quite a contrast to the non-stop discussion Cooran weekend just before! Look forward to any more comments;-) ======================== 22803 From: Sarah Date: Wed Jun 11, 2003 3:10am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: importance of Meditation Hi Yasa, I was hoping to reply to your comments too, but have to rush out now and leave it for a day or two. In any case, I appreciate your kind concern and clarifications. Your input is very helpful here and I look forward to discussing your comments a little more. Thanks in advance, Sarah ====== 22804 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Wed Jun 11, 2003 4:15am Subject: [dsg] Re: Lee- nibbana and sabhava --- To Mike: Solemn Utterance Hi Sarah (and Lee) and all, Sarah, I am not sure if you have come across the discourse Samyutta Nikaya XXXV.23 Sabba Sutta The All http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn35-023.html The note by Thanissaro Bhikkhu is relevant. Your comment is appreciated. Peace, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > Hi Lee, [snip] > I may have misunderstood your comment before when you mentioned not > speculating beyond `the all'. I merely was clarifying that `nibbana' was > included in `the all' to be known as I understand. I agree, however, that > speculation about it is still of limited value;-) [snip] > > With metta, > > Sarah 22805 From: Sarah Date: Wed Jun 11, 2003 4:49am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Lee- nibbana and sabhava --- To Mike: Solemn Utterance Hi Victor, I think your point is that you don’t consider nibbana as included under ‘the All’. I have read the sutta before, but I wonder if you read all my posts ??;-) Here is an extract from a rather technical one I wrote on the ayatanas which I hope clarifies why I don’t agree with Thanissaro bhikkhu’s comment on this point about the inclusion of nibbana (as supported by the Comy). If not, or you disagree, I’d be glad to hear your further comments in a little more detail perhaps;-) Thanks for your interest, Victor, Metta, Sarah p.s It might be interesting to follow up on some of the other comments and sutta references that Thanissaro gives here. I’ll let you take the lead. ===== http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/m18111.html Ayatana (bases, sense fields) ******* a) 6 internal bases 1. eye-base/sense (cakkhu pasada rupa = cakkhayatana) 2. ear-base 3. nose-base 4. tongue-base 5. body-sense base 6. mind-base/consciousness (manaayatana) (refers to all cittas) ...... b) 6 external bases 1. visible object (rupayatana) 2. sound 3. odour 4. taste 5. tactile object - cohesion, temperature, solidity 6. mind-object (dhammayatana) ....... Note: Dhammayatana (mind-objects) 1. All cetasikas 2. subtle rupas (sukhuma rupas) 3. NIBBANA ....... Note: Ayatanas refer ONLY to ultimate realities (paramattha dhammas) and NOT to concepts. As is apparent in the heading, ‘Salayatana’, it is the ayatanas being referred to. The first section furthermore refers to the internal and external bases (ayatanas) as listed above under ayatana. ........still under Salayatanasamyutta, we have looked at translations of the SABBA SUTTA before. The Comy notes make it clear that the all (sabba) refers to everything knowable, the all of the sense bases (aayatanasabba), the 12 AYATANA. ..... Note: intellect and ideas as used by Thanissaro Bhikkhu below, refer to manayatana and dhammayatana as classified above: i.e cittas, cetasikas, subtle rupas and nibbana. I believe the notes he gives after the sutta (see link) are therefore incorrect. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn35-023.html 22806 From: christhedis Date: Wed Jun 11, 2003 5:09am Subject: meditation vs. just thinking about it Hello all, I posted a few messages to this group 2 months ago under the subject 'equanimity'. I have been thinking about the importance of meditation. It is said that to really understand and learn the teachings of Buddhism, it is necessary to practise the teachings (ie. meditate), and that mere book reading is insufficient for understanding. I do appreciate this, however what are anyone's opinoins about the extent to which I can understand the teachings through mere "everyday contemplation" (not meditation)? For example, I think I recognize my grasping, clinging tendencies much more clearly now after studying some of the teachings. So I would say that in "practise", everyday life, I see these teachings being very helpful in understanding my experiences. Thus, is it possible to deeply understand the teachings through mere "everyday contemplation", and if not, why not? Is meditation necessary because it slows the mind and allows for the clearest type of insight? Any and all comments or opinoins would be greatly appreciated. Thank you, Chris 22807 From: Sarah Date: Wed Jun 11, 2003 5:41am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Lee- nibbana and sabhava --- To Mike: Solemn Utterance Hi Victor (& Lee). Bhikkhu Bodhi gives the following summary from the Commentary to the ‘Sabba Sutta’: **** Spk : The all (sabba) is fourfold: i) the all-inclusive all (sabbasabba), i.e everything knowable, all of which comes into range of the Buddha’s knowledge of omniscience; ii) the all of the sense bases (aayatanasabba), ie, the phenomena of the four planes; iii) the all of personal identity (sakkaayasabba), i.e., the phenomena of the three planes; and iv) the partial all (padesabba), i.e, the five physical sense objects. Each of these, from i) to iv), has a successively narrower range than its predecessor. In this sutta the all of the sense bases< aayatanasabba> is intended. The four planes are the three mundane planes and the supramundane plane (the four paths, their fruits, and Nibbana). **** Metta, Sarah ===== 22808 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Wed Jun 11, 2003 6:51am Subject: [dsg] Re: Lee- nibbana and sabhava --- To Mike: Solemn Utterance Hi Sarah and all, Thank you for your reply. How is nibbana, the cessation of dukkha, the unborn -- unbecome -- unmade -- unfabricated, mind-object/idea/dhammayatana that disintegrates? Peace, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > Hi Victor, > > I think your point is that you don't consider nibbana as included under > `the All'. I have read the sutta before, but I wonder if you read all my > posts ??;-) > Here is an extract from a rather technical one I wrote on the ayatanas > which I hope clarifies why I don't agree with Thanissaro bhikkhu's comment > on this point about the inclusion of nibbana (as supported by the Comy). > If not, or you disagree, I'd be glad to hear your further comments in a > little more detail perhaps;-) > > Thanks for your interest, Victor, > > Metta, > > Sarah > p.s It might be interesting to follow up on some of the other comments and > sutta references that Thanissaro gives here. I'll let you take the lead. > ===== > > http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/m18111.html > > Ayatana (bases, sense fields) > ******* > > a) 6 internal bases > 1. eye-base/sense (cakkhu pasada rupa = cakkhayatana) > 2. ear-base > 3. nose-base > 4. tongue-base > 5. body-sense base > 6. mind-base/consciousness (manaayatana) > (refers to all cittas) > ...... > b) 6 external bases > 1. visible object (rupayatana) > 2. sound > 3. odour > 4. taste > 5. tactile object - cohesion, temperature, solidity > 6. mind-object (dhammayatana) > ....... > Note: Dhammayatana (mind-objects) > > 1. All cetasikas > 2. subtle rupas (sukhuma rupas) > 3. NIBBANA > ....... > Note: Ayatanas refer ONLY to ultimate realities (paramattha dhammas) and > NOT to concepts. > > As is apparent in the heading, `Salayatana', it is the ayatanas being > referred to. The first section furthermore refers to the internal and > external bases (ayatanas) as listed above under ayatana. > > ........still under > Salayatanasamyutta, we have looked at translations of the SABBA SUTTA > before. The Comy notes make it clear that the all (sabba) refers to > everything knowable, the all of the sense bases (aayatanasabba), the 12 > AYATANA. > ..... > Note: intellect and ideas as used by Thanissaro Bhikkhu below, refer to > manayatana and dhammayatana as classified above: i.e cittas, cetasikas, > subtle rupas and nibbana. I believe the notes he gives after the sutta > (see link) are therefore incorrect. > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn35-023.html 22809 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Jun 11, 2003 10:17am Subject: Re: [dsg] Abhidhamma in Kraeng Jacang, what is reality, what is meditation. Hi Howard, Yasa, Dave, op 10-06-2003 20:54 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: Certainly no single experience, except the final, > ultimate one, leads to full enlightenment. I *certainly* accept that there is > a > development of wisdom and stages of development. My comment was merely that > the business of knowing *all things* is an overstatement. N: Let me say it more precisely: all realities that appear to the citta that develops insight. What else is there except what appears through six doors. But people have different accumulations and enlightened ones have also different degrees of understanding, encompassing more or fewer realities. But it has to be: the reality that presents itself at the present moment. The Path of Discr classifies the whole field, all the possibilities. For Dave: the word reality: ultimate reality, different from conventional reality. That which has its own unalterable characteristic, no matter how one names it. The name can vary, but the characteristic does not. Nama and rupa appearing one at a time through one of the six doorways. We can call it dhamma or paramattha dhamma. And this is the object for insight meditation. Whatever dhamma appears through one of the six doors is its object. This meditation is different from samatha or calm. The practice and the goal in vipassana and in samatha are altogether different, but panna is needed for both kinds of meditation. Samatha was also practised before the Buddha's time. For samatha you need a secluded place and the aim is calm, to be reached by concentration on a specific meditation subject. Panna has to know precisely when the citta is wholesome and when unwholesome, it has to know this at the present moment, and this is most difficult. Vipassana is to be developed in daily life, you have to know all your accumulations, all your experiences as they occur in daily life. You have to know them is non-self, beyond control. Vipassana is meditation, mental development, but it is meditation in a sense different from what you used to think. No special place or time. No selection of the object. If you select place, time, object, watch out for lobha. Yasa: you wrote: First, we have to know what meditation is: see above. Then, we have to know what Abhidhamma is. It is the Buddha's teaching about ultimate realities and these are exactly the objects of insight. The Buddha taught Abhidhamma in all the suttas. The message of each sutta: be aware now of nama and rupa now to reach the goal, do not be neglectful of the present moment. In the suttas the Buddha often said this message in the way of a story or daily speech adapted to his hearers, but the message is always there. The question is: do we understand it, are we openminded? Did the Buddha not also teach in the suttas about: < the five aggregates, the >> twelve sense bases, the eighteen elements, the four truths, the twenty-two >> faculties, the twelve factors of dependent origination, the foundations of >> mindfulness, etc., the various classifications of phenomena such as the >> wholesome, etc., > which passage I quoted to Howard before from the Com to the "Basket of Conduct" ? Well all this is about ultimate realities, it is Abhidhamma. I remember an impressive post of Suan where he gave us a pertinent reminder: "All the Buddha ever taught was Abhidhamma." He taught the same teaching in all three parts of the Tipitaka, only in different ways adapted to the hearers. Impermanence, dukkha and anatta, these refer to the characteristics of ultimate realities. Abhidhamma again. But I am sure there are misunderstandings about the word Abhidhamma. Different people may have different ideas of what Abhidhamma is. Seeing is abhidhamma, and it has to be object of insight. Colour is abhidhamma and it has to be object of insight. We cannot avoid all those realities, we cannot avoid Abhidhamma. It is within you and around you. Nina. 22810 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Jun 11, 2003 10:17am Subject: Abhidhamma in Kraeng Kacang, Ch 4, no 2 Abhidhamma in Kraeng Kacang, Ch 4, no 2 In many Suttas Såriputta was praised by the Buddha. He is called the ³General of the Dhamma², he was very concerned to preserve the Dhamma and in his systematic way he ensured that it was transmitted intact in all details. In the ³Discourse of the Elephant's Footprint², Såriputta teaches ultimate realities, beginning with the four noble Truths, and he teaches in the same way as the Buddha. This Sutta is full of Abhidhamma, it is actually Abhidhamma that is taught here as well as its application in daily life. We read in "Abhidhamma Studies" by Ven. Nyanaponika, in his Introduction, a citation from the Atthasåliní (Introductory Discourse, 29): "He who excludes the Abhidhamma (from the Buddha-word) damages the Conquerer's Wheel of Dhamma (jina-cakkam pahåram deti). He excludes thereby the Omniscience of the Tathagata and impoverishes the grounds of the Master's Knowledge of Self-confidence (vesårajja-ñåna to which Omniscience belongs); he deceives an audience anxious to learn; he obstructs (progress to) the Noble Paths of Holiness; he makes all the eighteen causes of discord appear at once. By so doing he deserves the disciplinary punishment of temporary segregation, or the reproof of the assembly of monks." We read further on in his ³Abhidhamma Studies²: 1. ³The Buddha has to be regarded as the first Abhidhammika, because, according to the Atthasåliní, "he has already penetrated the Abhidhamma when sitting under the tree of Enlightenment." 2. "The Abhidhamma, the ultimate doctrine, is the domain of omniscient Buddhas only, not the domain of others"(Atthasåliní). These profound teachings are unmistakenbly the property of an enlightened being, a Buddha.² What matters most is understanding the content of the Abhidhamma, the Buddha¹s teaching on realities. The Abhidhamma gives us all details about citta, cetasika and rúpa, and all their various conditions which are very complex. It depends on someone¹s inclinations how much he wants to study, but whatever we study, we should consider and apply it to our life so that it becomes meaningful to us personally. Then we can see for ourselves that the Abhidhamma does not consist of dry, scientific, abstract classifications. We should not forget the second Book of the Abhidhamma, the ³Book of Analysis² which gives many examples of dhammas as they occur in daily life. In this Book we learn, for example, all the details and different shades of conceit, and also what the objects of conceit are. We also learn that what may appear to be kusala is in reality akusala. We learn about our hidden unwholesome motivations which are difficult to detect. The Abhidhamma gives us reminders which can have a direct impact on our life. We can gain great benefit from the study of the Abhidhamma, it can help us to be less deluded about ourselves. Although the Buddha also taught by way of conventional terms, depending on the ability of the audience to grasp his teaching, all three parts of the Tipitaka explain the same truths and the same path to enlightenment. We can see that Suttanta and Vinaya also contains Abhidhamma, as pointed out before. We read in the Suttas that the Buddha spoke about the five khandhas, time and again. What else are these but citta, cetasika and rúpa. Nina. 22811 From: Date: Wed Jun 11, 2003 8:34am Subject: Re: [dsg] Abhidhamma in Kraeng Jacang, what is reality, what is meditation. Hi, Nina et al - In a message dated 6/11/03 1:20:28 PM Eastern Daylight Time, nilo@e... writes: > Hi Howard, Yasa, Dave, > op 10-06-2003 20:54 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: > Certainly no single experience, except the final, > >ultimate one, leads to full enlightenment. I *certainly* accept that there > is > >a > >development of wisdom and stages of development. My comment was merely that > >the business of knowing *all things* is an overstatement. > N: Let me say it more precisely: all realities that appear to the citta that > develops insight. What else is there except what appears through six doors. > But people have different accumulations and enlightened ones have also > different degrees of understanding, encompassing more or fewer realities. > But it has to be: the reality that presents itself at the present moment. > The Path of Discr classifies the whole field, all the possibilities. ============================= I don't find anything to object to in the foregoing. If there is a single conditioned dhamma that a person were to sense as I, mine, permanent, substantial, or independent, then that person is not fully enlightened. But one needn't encounter all dhammas prior to full enlightenment dawning. What is needed is that the *tendency* to any of the above mentioned faults be completely and thoroughly uprooted. It is not a matter of *number* of dhammas which wisdom sees through (one by one, temporally), but of wisdom having uprooted all defilements, and thus uprooting the very *tendency* to ignorantly experience *any* dhamma. This is how I inderstand the matter. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 22812 From: rjkjp1 Date: Wed Jun 11, 2003 2:02pm Subject: Re: meditation vs. just thinking about it --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christhedis" wrote: > . > > Thus, is it possible to deeply understand the teachings through > mere "everyday contemplation", and if not, why not? Is meditation > necessary because it slows the mind and allows for the clearest type of > insight? > > _______ Dear Chris, I picked up a magazine yesterday that compared yoga and Buddhism and an article 'explained' that vedanta was the same as Buddhism because by meditation both showed that everything was impermanent, dukkha and not-self. Except that vedanta went further and revealed the 'underlying basis upon which the world rests' (I forget the exact phrase). This is what the writer believes. Could I suggest that the feeling/idea that meditation or anything else slows the mind is an illusion. I believe that what Buddhist 'meditation' gradually reveals is that there is really no 'mind' , there is only momentary elements. And this understanding develops whether one is in a quiet place or not. When we feel distracted and worried that is the time that insight should arise to understand 'distraction and worry', to see their characteristic. Once we see how this occurs you won't believe that you have to be in any special position or place. Could I also add that there are many levels of contemplation. One can reflect wisely about the present moment and this is a type of samatha Bhavana - meditation on Dhamma . Another level knows the moment without having to reflect. They support each other . Robertk 22813 From: christine_forsyth Date: Wed Jun 11, 2003 2:13pm Subject: Re: meditation vs. just thinking about it Hi Chris (and RobK), Thanks for your post Robert which I found helpful. Chris, as well as Robert's post, I think Jon in July last year, gave a good explanation of why the definition of the term 'meditation' is important. If two people are using the term meditation, they may assume that both are speaking about the same thing, but that is not necessarily so. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/14276 metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: 22814 From: yasalalaka Date: Wed Jun 11, 2003 1:37pm Subject: Re: meditation vs. just thinking about it --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christhedis" wrote: > Hello all, > > I posted a few messages to this group 2 months ago under the > subject 'equanimity'. > > I have been thinking about the importance of meditation. It is said that > to really understand and learn the teachings of Buddhism, it is ______________________________Yasa________________________ Chris, Meditation and thinking are two different mental activities. What we do most of the time is thinking. We can think of wholesome things and unwholesome things. In meditation one does not think but cultivates mindful awareness. Contrary to thinking, mindful awareness is of wholesome activities. In thinking we use our knowledge, which is not our own, but is based on what we have read or heard. When we think of the future we only use our knowledge of the past to interpret the future which is unknown. In thinking we are using concepts, which are conventional and worldly. In meditation, we become aware of the" here and now", and go beyond concepts to realise the ultimate realities. Bhavana ,the Pali word for meditation means , cultivation of the mind. Buddhism is not just to be a good person and do the correct things in life according to what we have learnt, but to understand why every thing is not always the same. Why things change, why happiness does not last, why there is illness and pain. What causes anger, stress, jealousy and hatred. Root causes of all ills are the attachment, aversion and delusion. These causes are the result of the belief in a "self", "me" and "I". If we can understand the reality of "self", we can overcome the un-satisfactoriness of life. To understand the reality of life, we meditate so that through meditation we can purify the mind to see for ourselves the impermanence, un-satisfactoriness and no-self. These are only words, and makes for a superficial understanding of the Buddha's teachings, but if you want " to deeply understanding the teaching" to see through the words and comprehend the true nature of self, one has to meditate. With metta, Yasa 22815 From: robmoult Date: Wed Jun 11, 2003 3:20pm Subject: The most common citta (was [dsg] Re: TEST QUESTION) Hi Sarah (and All), --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > You mentioned > that `for most people, lobha is the most common citta'. I would have > thought cittas rooted in moha (ignorance) would be most common - we know > all akusala cittas are accompanied by moha, but even between all those > rooted in lobha and dosa, there are many just rooted in moha and > accompanied by uddhacca (restlessness). Do you have any reference for > this? ===== My logic is that clinging to continued existence is not only the first citta but also the most common citta. I have the idea that this "clining to continued existence" citta is always working as an "undercurrent". Rupas of the body are constantly being created; these rupas are born of kamma. This kamma is created by cittas. My logic is that it is "clinging to continued existence" cittas which create the kamma that conditions the rupas of the body to constantly be created. I have not read this in any text, it is my own (twisted?) logic, so I am going to throw it open to the group for comment. What do you think? I we agree with this logic, then I need to delete my qualifier, "for most people". ===== > > You wrote that `cittas with thina and middha are passive whereas > cittas without thina and middha are active and spontaneous'. > > It's true that we read about laziness and lack of energy and so on with > regard to these mental factors, but I think we need to be clear that it is > only kusala viriya (energy) that is lacking or prevented. An arahant may > be tired physically and sleep, but no thina and middha. Conversely, there > may be thina and middha with ditthi (wrong view) or mana (conceit) or > other unwholesome, `prompted' cittas when we're wide awake and active. > Your comment may be referring to `prompted'(sasankharika) vs `unprompted' > (asankharika). ===== Yes, my comments were related to `prompted' (sasankharika) vs 'unprompted' (asankharika). I think that I will change the word "passive" to "lazy (having little energy)"; I can't say "no energy" becasue viriya arises in all cittas except sense door adverting, sense door consciousness, receiving and investigating cittas. Metta, Rob M :-) 22816 From: robmoult Date: Wed Jun 11, 2003 3:26pm Subject: The most common citta (was [dsg] Re: TEST QUESTION) Hi All, A quick clarification; I mean the most common *javana* citta. Metta, Rob M :-) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" wrote: > Hi Sarah (and All), > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah > wrote: > > You mentioned > > that `for most people, lobha is the most common citta'. I would > have > > thought cittas rooted in moha (ignorance) would be most common - > we know > > all akusala cittas are accompanied by moha, but even between all > those > > rooted in lobha and dosa, there are many just rooted in moha and > > accompanied by uddhacca (restlessness). Do you have any reference > for > > this? > > ===== > > My logic is that clinging to continued existence is not only the > first citta but also the most common citta. I have the idea that > this "clining to continued existence" citta is always working as > an "undercurrent". Rupas of the body are constantly being created; > these rupas are born of kamma. This kamma is created by cittas. My > logic is that it is "clinging to continued existence" cittas which > create the kamma that conditions the rupas of the body to constantly > be created. > > I have not read this in any text, it is my own (twisted?) logic, so > I am going to throw it open to the group for comment. > > What do you think? I we agree with this logic, then I need to delete > my qualifier, "for most people". > > ===== > > > > > You wrote that `cittas with thina and middha are passive whereas > > cittas without thina and middha are active and spontaneous'. > > > > It's true that we read about laziness and lack of energy and so on > with > > regard to these mental factors, but I think we need to be clear > that it is > > only kusala viriya (energy) that is lacking or prevented. An > arahant may > > be tired physically and sleep, but no thina and middha. > Conversely, there > > may be thina and middha with ditthi (wrong view) or mana (conceit) > or > > other unwholesome, `prompted' cittas when we're wide awake and > active. > > Your comment may be referring to `prompted'(sasankharika) > vs `unprompted' > > (asankharika). > > ===== > > Yes, my comments were related to `prompted' (sasankharika) > vs 'unprompted' (asankharika). I think that I will change the > word "passive" to "lazy (having little energy)"; I can't say "no > energy" becasue viriya arises in all cittas except sense door > adverting, sense door consciousness, receiving and investigating > cittas. > > Metta, > Rob M :-) 22817 From: Date: Wed Jun 11, 2003 0:26pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Abhidhamma in Kraeng Jacang, what is reality, what is meditation. Hi again, Nina - In a message dated 6/11/03 3:36:34 PM Eastern Daylight Time, upasaka@a... writes: > It is not a matter of *number* of dhammas which wisdom > sees through (one by one, temporally), but of wisdom having uprooted all > defilements, and thus uprooting the very *tendency* to ignorantly experience > *any* > dhamma. ========================= I realize that this sentence is ambiguous. By "ignorantly experience" I meant 'experience with ignorance' (or 'wrongly experience'). With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 22818 From: kenhowardau Date: Thu Jun 12, 2003 1:58am Subject: Re: meditation vs. just thinking about it Hi Chris (and Yasa PS), Rather than add anything to what Christine and Robert have said, I'd just like to stress that the vipassana meditation (bhavana) they are explaining, is very different from meditation in the ordinary sense of the word. I know only too well, that even very careful explanations of things that are ultimately true, can be misunderstood. They can be seen as confirmations of things that are conventionally true. Robert said: "When we feel distracted and worried that is the time that insight should arise to understand 'distraction and worry', to see their characteristic." I just want to stress that we shouldn't misread this as a prescription to be carried out. It is a description to be understood. Whenever we try to have insight, there is concentration on concepts. Concentration on concepts is not vipassana. Kind regards, Ken H PS. Yasa, I've just read your answer which I'm sure is literally correct but I think you are misreading the Buddha's teaching as a prescription -- as if there was a self who could carry it out. 22819 From: sundara12003 Date: Thu Jun 12, 2003 3:16am Subject: Greetings! Hello Everybody, I've just joined the group today and I'm looking forward to enriching my Dhamma knowledge and making a contribution at times. I know a few of you from times past - hello Azita, Jon, Sarah, Nina, KenH, Andrew (I haven't forgotten the book either!), and Steve. (Christine is helping me write this - actually she is doing all the typing!) I'll probably mostly be a lurker, as I only get access to a computer occasionally, but will write when I can. Best wishes, Sundara 22820 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Thu Jun 12, 2003 3:51am Subject: Re: [dsg] Greetings! Sundara Welcome to the list. Nice to see you here. Looking forward to reading your contributions. I'm sure you'll find something of interest (and some familiar themes) among the many threads running. Thanks to Christine for the encouragement and for making it possible. Jon --- sundara12003 wrote: > Hello Everybody, > > I've just joined the group today and I'm looking forward to > enriching > my Dhamma knowledge and making a contribution at times. I know a > few > of you from times past - hello Azita, Jon, Sarah, Nina, KenH, > Andrew > (I haven't forgotten the book either!), and Steve. (Christine is > helping me write this - actually she is doing all the typing!) > I'll probably mostly be a lurker, as I only get access to a > computer > occasionally, but will write when I can. > Best wishes, > Sundara 22821 From: Sarah Date: Thu Jun 12, 2003 5:52am Subject: Re: [dsg] Greetings! Hi Sundara. I’m also very glad to see you’ve made it here and I look forward to your contributions. I think Michael Newton may also remember you from Sri Lanka in the 70s - (Michael, your name was B. Alokananda wasn’t it?). Sundara, when we met up with you in Noosa last year, you were reciting some Dhammapada verses in Pali - I know you’re very familiar with them and perhaps you could mention one or two of your favourites for reflection, giving the reasons for your choice. I’d be interested to hear. I’ll also be glad to hear any of your reflections on parts of the Vinaya (or other baskets) anytime. Best wishes to other mutual friends you’re in touch with and hope you can encourage them to join us too! Btw, very conveniently your pics preceded you to DSG - members can see Sundara in ‘DSG Meetings’, pix nos 8 and 10 (Sundara is the Richard Gere look-alike) and also conveniently in a pic in ‘Others’ as a bhikkhu in Sri Lanka from those old days . With metta and hoping you're well, Sarah p.s Christine - anumodana and appreciation for your kind and patient help with bringing Sundara up to date with dhamma via modern technology;-);-) p.p.s. Michael - maybe you can also share a pic or two with us to help jog our memories. (If you want help, I know Chris, Kom or James will be glad to assist). =============== 22822 From: abhidhammika Date: Thu Jun 12, 2003 6:08am Subject: The Buddha's Teachings Preventing Suicide Dear Dhamma friends How are you? The following is my reply to someone whose friend attempted committing suicide. With regards, Suan ______________________________ Dear Doret, Carol and All How are you? Doret asked Suan: "This is my question: I know she wants to leave this earth. She is miserable and unhappy and alone -- rejecting any attempts to include her in our lives. If I have reason to suspect she has tried it again, should I just keep walking and let her find the peace she desires? Or does it call for a repeat performance, ambulance medics bringing her back, to an even hollower, lifeless shell of herself? What would Buddha say? What do you say?" Suan answered as follows. The people who commit or attempt suicide are given to confusion and anger. What triggers their anger is usually depression, which, in its turn, is caused by unfulfilled desires. As the Buddha said in his First Discourse, "yam piccham na labhati, tam pi dukkham". "The desire (i.e, what one desires) that is unavailable is misery." Section 1081, Dhammacakkapavattana Suttam, Mahavagga Pali, Samyuttanikaaya. Your friend's story was sketchy in terms of what went before the first and second attempts of suicide. For example, did your friend tell you anything to do with her depression or her dominant misery? If we could know more details about her circumstances before suicide attempts, we would be in a better position to help her. As suicide is the result of confusion (avijjaa) and anger, it is not the course of action that I, as a follower of the Buddha, would recommend. I would, by all means, prevent her from committing suicide by helping her sorting out her circumstances. During February this year (2003), my presence in Canberra and his knowledge of my name and contact number prevented a gentleman from committing suicide. When he became my client, he told me he had picked up his kitchen knife to kill himself. He suddenly remembered a pamphlet about bodhiology and decided to give me a call. Of course, I at once asked him to come and see me for treatment of his depression. He has recovered from depression and is now happily working to raise his 7-year-old daughter. With regards, Suan Lu Zaw http://www.bodhiology.org 22823 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Thu Jun 12, 2003 8:09am Subject: RE: [dsg] Sorry.... Dear Janice, Thanks for writing again! It's good that you ask me this question, since I am somewhat ignorant of the Buddhist holidays myself. I had to do some research, and here is a list of Buddhist holidays. I hope I didn't miss much: Magha-puja day - full moon of the 3rd lunar month (magha) - March. This was the day where 1250 disciples assembled, without appointment or schedule, to come see the Buddha. The monks were Arahats with the 6-fold knowledge, ordained by the Buddha himself. The Buddha gave the teaching to avoid evil, do good, and purify the mind on this day. Visakha-puja day - full moon of the 6th lunar month - May - possibly the most important Buddhist holiday. This is the day when he was born, became enlightened (in a different year!), and finally passed away. Asalaha-puja day - 2 months later after the Buddha became enlightened - July, he gave the first teaching to the first 5 disciples. This is the day where the dispensation of the Buddha was fully established for the 3 Buddhist jewels were complete: the Buddha, the Dhamma, and the Sangha. Lent ceremony - July - this is when the monks take residence at a place for 3 month during the rainy season. Tak Bat Devo festival and end of Lent - 3 month after Lent - October - this is when the Buddha descended from the Dusita heaven having given the teaching of Abhidhamma to the devas for the 3 full months. It is said that on this day, all the realms of existence were shown to many people, giving them the urgency to better themselves. Kathina ceremony - Nov - this was the traditional occasion where the monks get together to sew their own clothing using discarded pieces of clothes they found. Besides all the major holidays above, there are also people who observes the uposatha day, which is twice every month where lay people observes the 8 rules of precept. The most well-known holiday, I think, is Visakha day. Many Buddhists observe the holiday. Some don't. People observe these holidays according to their beliefs and circumstances... Thanks for writing again! kom > -----Original Message----- > From: Star Kid [mailto:starkidsclub@y...] > Sent: Friday, June 06, 2003 6:34 AM > To: dsg > Subject: [dsg] Sorry.... > > > Here are some new ones: > 1. Is there a special Buddha day? > 2. Does every Buddhist clelebrate that day or only > some of them? > Got to go!! > Metta > Janice > > 22824 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Jun 12, 2003 10:03am Subject: Re: [dsg] Path of Discrimination. Dear Howard, op 01-06-2003 21:27 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: > Also, I have some reservations with regard to the Path of > Discrimination as a primary source. As I understand it, it was incorporated > into the Khuddhaka Nikaya rather late, and might well be more of a commentarial work > than direct Buddha Word. I say this despite my looking favorably on comments made > in it with respect to the notion of 'sabhava'. N: You have to dive into it and make a study in order to be convinced. Remember Num's studies of it. The whole book is about the development of understanding. Sariputta, the "General of the Dhamma" composed it. It begins with all realities that have to be directly known, thus, no theory. It is very practical. Many aspects of sila, leading to non-remorse, gladness, happiness, tranquillity, joy, repetition, development, etc. About Dependent Origination, many references to the suttanta. About the Buddha's Great Compassion: Worldly life moves on.. is on the wrong road... has no shelter and no protector... is wounded by darts, is darkened by a shadow of ignorance... goes in ignorance, is blind, is enclosed in an egg [of ignorance].. there descends the Great Compassion for beings... I cannot quote the whole book. Remember Sarah's explanations about the sources, the Commentary by Buddhaghosa on the inception of Discipline, Bahiranidana. I have it here. Buddhaghosa was merely a translator of old sources: the Maha-Atthakata, Maha-paccariya, and the Kurundi he found at the Great Monastery in Sri Lanka. Tradition goes back to the first Council. There is an unbroken succession of teachers beginning with Upali, up to Buddhamitta, under whom Buddhaghosa studied the commentaries. This whole line is summed up. In this Commentary, the Bahiranidana, it is explained: the Dhamma Vinaya contains the three Pitakas. All the works of the Khuddakaninaka are summed up, including the Path of Discrimination (p. 15). This is under Suttantapitaka. I see here also interesting explanations about the meaning of the word Abhidhamma: Also the differences between the three Pitakas, but this will be too long for now. The description is very subtle, deep in meaning. (p. 19). There are so many theories about the dates, and I would say, read it first and study it. We study and check, and we compare with all the other parts of the teachings. Is there any contradiction, or anything that is contrary to what we can experience now? Nina. 22825 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Jun 12, 2003 10:03am Subject: Re: [dsg] Way 100, Mental Objects, seven treasures Dear Larry and all, op 11-06-2003 00:40 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > There is reflection on the greatness of the heritage when one thinks > thus: "Great, indeed, is the heritage of the Teacher, namely the Seven > Real Treasures [Sutta Ariya Dhanani]. These are not to be got by the > slothful. The indolent man is like a son disowned by his parents. He > does not get this parents' wealth when they pass away. So too it is with > the Seven Real Treasures. Only the man of energy gets these." N: I have an old post on these: Nina. 22826 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Jun 12, 2003 10:03am Subject: Abhidhamma in Kraeng Kacang, Ch 4, no 3 Abhidhamma in Kraeng Kacang, Ch 4, no 3 We do not need to study all details, but it is important to have a basic understanding of nåma and rúpa, of the different processes of cittas that experience objects through the six doors. At the same time we should remember that whatever we learn from the teachings pertains to our daily life now. We learn about kusala citta and akusala citta, but when they arise, it is difficult to have precise understanding of them. We often take for kusala what is akusala. We may believe that we have only kusala cittas when we assist someone else, but in reality there may also be clinging to our kusala, or there may be conceit. When sati-sampajañña arises we shall know the difference between kusala citta and akusala citta, we shall know the characteristic of attachment, lobha, even when it is very subtle. Sati-sampajañña knows realities without words, without thinking of definitions; at that moment there is no speculation about realities. We shall also understand more clearly the meaning and purpose of the Abhidhamma: the development of understanding which can eradicate defilements. Direct understanding is different from theoretical understanding, but it is in conformity with what we learnt from the texts. Acharn Sujin said ³The Abhidhamma is the only way to see dhamma as dhamma, to become enlightened. Its goal is development of right understanding.² Acharn Sujin said that when one reads a cookbook, one may memorize all the details, the ingredients, and the method of cooking from a book, but one may never know how the food tastes. Even so, one may read a great deal about Vinaya, Sutta, or Abhidhamma but never see the true characteristic of dhamma. Reading the Scriptures can be compared to reading or memorizing a cookbook. Sati, mindfulness, of the characteristic of the nåma or rúpa that appears right now is like the tasting of food. No words are needed to describe a particular flavour, but we know how it tastes. It is the same with direct understanding of realities. We have to know the right conditions for the arising of sati-sampajaññå. Jonothan pointed out the conditions for the arising of direct awareness and understanding of realities. He wrote: ³The conditions for developing this mere understanding are not easy to appreciate. I understand them to include: repeated listening to and reading of the actual teachings, the Tipitaka and their Commentaries, reflecting on what has been heard or studied, applying what has been understood from the listening and reflecting. To many people this sounds like a purely intellectual exercise, but properly understood it is much more than that. It is or can be a condition for a better understanding of the presently arising reality... I think part of the reason for the scepticism that many have about this is that there is no immediate and direct 'result'. The results come in their own good time. The accumulation of understanding is very gradual and subtle and it is absolutely not self.² 22827 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Jun 12, 2003 10:03am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: thina middha. Dear Sarah, one remark in your post reminded me of something I learnt from A. Somporn when at the foundation. op 11-06-2003 09:07 schreef Sarah op sarahdhhk@y...: > An arahant may > be tired physically and sleep, but no thina and middha. N: He said, there may be middha but it is not kilesa. For the arahat middha is not kilesa. This is from the Co. to the Abhidh Sangaha, we could look it up, topics of Dhamma. It was new to me. Nina. 22828 From: Date: Thu Jun 12, 2003 6:27am Subject: Re: [dsg] Path of Discrimination. Thank you, Nina. I will give the text a fairer try. With metta, Howard In a message dated 6/12/03 1:04:16 PM Eastern Daylight Time, nilo@e... writes: > Dear Howard, > op 01-06-2003 21:27 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: > > >Also, I have some reservations with regard to the Path of > >Discrimination as a primary source. As I understand it, it was incorporated > >into the Khuddhaka Nikaya rather late, and might well be more of a > commentarial work > >than direct Buddha Word. I say this despite my looking favorably on > comments > made > >in it with respect to the notion of 'sabhava'. > N: You have to dive into it and make a study in order to be convinced. > Remember Num's studies of it. The whole book is about the development of > understanding. Sariputta, the "General of the Dhamma" composed it. It begins > with all realities that have to be directly known, thus, no theory. It is > very practical. > Many aspects of sila, leading to non-remorse, gladness, happiness, > tranquillity, joy, repetition, development, etc. > About Dependent Origination, many references to the suttanta. > About the Buddha's Great Compassion: Worldly life moves on.. is on the wrong > road... has no shelter and no protector... is wounded by darts, is darkened > by a shadow of ignorance... goes in ignorance, is blind, is enclosed in an > egg [of ignorance].. there descends the Great Compassion for beings... > I cannot quote the whole book. Remember Sarah's explanations about the > sources, the Commentary by Buddhaghosa on the inception of Discipline, > Bahiranidana. I have it here. Buddhaghosa was merely a translator of old > sources: the Maha-Atthakata, Maha-paccariya, and the Kurundi he found at the > Great Monastery in Sri Lanka. Tradition goes back to the first Council. > There is an unbroken succession of teachers beginning with Upali, up to > Buddhamitta, under whom Buddhaghosa studied the commentaries. This whole > line is summed up. > In this Commentary, the Bahiranidana, it is explained: the Dhamma Vinaya > contains the three Pitakas. All the works of the Khuddakaninaka are summed > up, including the Path of Discrimination (p. 15). This is under > Suttantapitaka. > I see here also interesting explanations about the meaning of the word > Abhidhamma: own characteristics, are revered and differentiated and said to be > excellent- on account of these it is called abhidhamma.> > Also the differences between the three Pitakas, but this will be too long > for now. The description is very subtle, deep in meaning. (p. 19). > There are so many theories about the dates, and I would say, read it first > and study it. We study and check, and we compare with all the other parts of > the teachings. Is there any contradiction, or anything that is contrary to > what we can experience now? > Nina. > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 22829 From: dwlemen Date: Thu Jun 12, 2003 2:14pm Subject: Re: [dsg] importance of Meditation Sarah, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > Hi Dave (& Azita), > > Thanks for all your feedback. Let me start with the comments you make at > the end of your post - hope that's OK: > > --- dwlemen wrote: > > DAVE: > > 1.) It seems that the theory is that we can only experience one thing > > at a time (e.g. at a moment, we may experience seeing, but then no > > touching, hearing, ... occurs). Why? I can see that we do "tune > > out" stimulus coming at us, but it seems to me that we are able to > > process multiple senses at once. When I pick up my cup of coffee, I > > see it, feel it, and smell it, as well as think about it. It seems > > like the mind would be quite a bottleneck for processing these > > stimuli if it was a single processing system. > ..... > This is difficult because, as you say, it seems contrary to experience. As > you say, it seems that we see, feel, smell and think about the coffee and > furthermore that the coffee exists. If we hadn't heard the Buddha's > teachings we would have no idea that in fact there is only one experience > through one sense at a time, regardless of how distracted or 'still' we > may be. There is no self involved to either do the experiencing or to > process, stop or slow down or interact with experienced objects. There is > no self to even plant the right conditions like the gardener either. > DAVE: What then does really exist? Does the universe actually exist on its own, or only because we are in it? I guess it sounds like a different version of the "if a tree falls in a forest an no one is there to hear it, does it make a sound" riddle. If no one is there, does the tree exist? If not, How is it that each individual's basic perception matches? I know that we can lump extra stuff onto an object, but the basic existence of the object is still there E.g. the moon. It can be a god, a piece of cheese, a section of the Earth's inner core, or a rememberace of a lost love, but it's there none the less. > You ask 'why?' and all I can say is that what the Buddha taught is an > intricate description of the way it is. Obviously there must be some > little inklings that there may be some truth in it, or we wouldn't be here > discussing these teachings. When you mention about the bottleneck, I think DAVE: I am asking "why" I guess. I agree we are here discussing the teachings because we both feel there are truths. One thing I've always liked about Buddhism is that it does not ask for blind faith but asks for us to find out for ourselves and then accept/reject accordingly. I suppose that is what we are doing here. > it's easy for our conceptual reasoning to see it like this. We can discuss > a lot of detail about the speed and complexity of the processing system, > but miss the point about direct awareness of the reality appearing now. > DAVE: I'm still not sure what you mean by "reality." Awareness of "reality" would necessitate an awarer, which would imply the imposition of perception upon "reality" (how's that for a sentence! My philosophy prof would be proud!). What I'm trying to say is; are we talking about phyics are psychology, as such. I am reminded of my computer here at my office. Right now, I've got my email, a few web browsers, an MP3 player, and 2 different compilers running. My impression is that all these things run at the same time, but I know that, inside the machine, there is one CPU and each of these processes do occur, one at a time. However, in our server room is a web server that has 4 CPU's so it literally does 4 things at once. When we read about neural networks, or distributed computing, there are many many things happening at the exact same moment. I guess I've always thought of the human mind more like the neural network than the desktop PC. However, like my PC, or even my server's desktop, only one thing has "focus" at any moment. So, behind the scenes, things are happening (like my music playing, or keyboard inputs), but my email is the only one with focus. That is sort of how I see our awareness. I'm thinking about what to write, so I'm not really listening to my music, although I am hearing it. > > 2.) In the tapes, they often talk about "reality." I'm not sure what > > they mean by that phrase. Do they mean the actual, physical world, > > our merely our perception of the physical world? > ..... > This comes back to the concepts vs realities discussions here. By > 'reality' the Buddha is referring to phenomena that can be directly known > as opposed to objects of conceptual reasoning. There are those realities > which experience objects such as seeing, hearing, experiencing through the > body, thinking and so on. There are also realities which accompany these > kinds of consciousness such as feelings, likes and dislikes. There are > also realities which are experienced and which have particular > characteristics such as visible object, sound, heat and so on. So they are > the actual mental and physical worlds at this moment. The perception of > these worlds, such as 'picking up a cup of coffee' consists of many > different realities which are blurred together in the mind into a concept > or 'whole' which we take for being real. > DAVE: So, from reading this, it sounds more like "psychology" than "physics." It's not whether the moon is "real" but the means by which we assimilate that various inputs that allow us to experience it... > Working back through your comments (I'm not sure why I'm working > backwards;-)), you ask how I see meditation. I understand bhavana > (mditation) to refer to samatha (calm) and vipassana (insight) > development. For any moments of true meditation, there has to be right > understanding of the object and naturally the mental states must be > wholesome. I say naturally, but most the time when we sit quietly > cross-legged and focus on an object or try to calm the mind, the mental > states may well not be wholesome at all, especially if there isn't any > understanding. > > This is why the understanding and awareness of realities is important - if > they are not known, or if there is no detachment from what is experienced > and our practice is motivated by attachment for particular states, then > I'm not sure we can call those moments true bhavana or meditation . > > In other words, as I think you'll now appreciate (but don't need to agree > with;-)), for me meditation would refer to a single moment with awareness > and understanding either of one of the objects of samatha (calm) or to a > moment of satipatthana which clearly knows a reality. You are right that I > don't see it in terms of the position or location, but in terms of the > nature of consciousness, lasting a brief moment only. I think as Larry has > been pointing out in his 'test' series, the defilements are far more > prevalent than we may have imagined and therefore, moments of true > 'meditation' are rare and precious. > > It seems to me that if we wish to eliminate other stimulation 'so the mind > will have less opportunity to jump around', that there is a lurking idea > of being able to control the mind or an idea that mindfulness will be > easier at these times. For me, this would indicate a kind of desire for > more mindfulness and a lack of confidence that mindfulness can really > arise at any time or with any reality as object - even those we'd rather > not experience, such as conceit! I think it comes back to our > understanding of what the right conditions are or way to prepare the soil > as you discuss in gardening mode;-). > > We need to know what the soil is in the first place. In the Visuddhimagga > (XIV,32), we read under the section on the growth of wisdom: > > "How is it (wisdom) developed? Now the things classed as aggregates, > bases, elements, faculties, truths, dependent origination, etc, are the > 'soil' of this understanding....." > > It continues to give a great amount of detail about these ingredients in > the soil. In other words, when we talk about 'understanding the teachings > of the Buddha', I believe it is these very ingredients - aggregates etc - > that are to be known. How can these be known? By considering, discussing, > reflecting and developing awareness of them. For some people this may be > whilst rushing around following a busy schedule. For others it might be > whilst sitting quietly with a single focus. It'll just depend on the > understanding as I think Azita pointed out clearly in her feedback from > her retreat. > DAVE: Do you then not practice traditional meditation? I can see your points (and others who have written here and elsewhere). that meditation might not be an absolute requirement for enlightenment, but it does still seem to me that, it surely doesn't hurt. > OK, I've rambled on. It must be your turn to answer questions now!: > > 1. What importance do you give to the discussion of realities? DAVE: I suppose at this point, I'd say that I find the discussion interesting, but not necissarily vital. From what I understand from the tapes, proper understanding is needed before proper awareness can occur, but, I'd also assumed that, since, as you say, there is no gardener, if I just did my meditations and followed the Precepts, that, as a truth, the proper understanding would emerge. Does that make any sense? > 2. Do you see this as having any bearing on your meditation practice? DAVE: As I indicated above, perhaps. > 3. What are your comments on Azita's retreat and particularly the aspect > of clarifying the 'correct teaching' as an important support condition? DAVE: Do you mean the post where Azita was disappointed that the teacher at the retreat didn't teach the Dhamma the way she understands it? I don't know what I think of that. Is this perhaps marking the early phases of a split in T. Buddhism? I see some people (e.g. Ajahn Bramavamso, or our own Yasa) who are very big advocates of meditation. But, others like you and, it seems, Nina, who are not. I guess to answer your question, I don't think I'm in a position to know who's "right" so I wouldn't be able to make the same kind of statements that Azita did. > 4. Do my comments on the way I see meditation here make any sense to you? > DAVE: Yes, your comments do make sense. I can't say that I agree with them 100%, but I honestly can't really say why... a hunch/intuition? Clinging to the concept that a good Buddhist must meditate? Who knows! > With metta, > > Sarah DAVE: One quick last question for you... Can you recommend a place to view or a book to buy that would be a good, English translation fo the original Pali texts? Perhaps I'd be in a better position to understand what the Buddha said in regards to Meditation if I could read them myself (I know reading in Pali would be better but... baby steps!) Thanks, as always, for your taking all this time to go on with me about all this. I do appreciate it. Peace, Dave 22830 From: Date: Thu Jun 12, 2003 3:42pm Subject: Way 101, Mental Objects Commentary on the Satipatthana Sutta, "The Way of Mindfulness" trans. & ed. Soma Thera, Commentary, Buddhaghosa Thera, Subcommentary (tika), Dhammapala Thera. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/misc/wayof.html The Contemplation of Mental Objects The Factors of Enlightenment 4. Joy There are things which condition the enlightenment factor of joy and an abundance of right reflection on these is the reason that is conducive to the arising of the non-arisen enlightenment factor of joy and for the increase, expansion and completion by culture of the enlightenment factor when it has arisen. Eleven things lead to the arising of the enlightenment factor of joy: recollection of the Buddha, recollection of the Dhamma, recollection of the Sangha, recollection of virtue, of liberality, of the shining ones [devas], and the recollection of peace [upasama], the avoiding of bad people, association with good people, reflection on the discourses inspiring confidence, and the inclination towards joy. By recollection of the Buddha's qualities, of the qualities of the Dhamma, and of the Sangha, joy arises. Joy arises also for one who having kept the precepts of fourfold purity unbroken for a long time reflects on one's virtue; to laymen who reflect on their virtue through observing the ten and the five precepts; to one reflecting on liberality and recollecting one's gift of excellent food to one's fellows in the holy life during a time of scarcity and the like; to laymen recollecting their liberality in giving alms to virtuous folk; to one reflecting on one's possession of qualities by which beings have reached the state of shining ones (devas); to one reflecting thus by way of peace: "The passions suppressed by the higher attainments do not occur for sixty or seventy years." The avoiding of bad people is the keeping away from rough people who are like dirt on a mule's back, who show a callous nature through irreverence, owing to lack of faith-inspired affection for the Buddha and the like, in worshipping shrines or elders. Good people are those who have much faith in the Buddha and the like and are gentle of mind. Discourses which illumine the qualities of and inspire confidence in the Triple Gem are discourses inspiring confidence. The inclination towards joy refers to the mind sloping towards this enlightenment factor in all postures of sitting and the like. The completion by culture of this enlightenment factor is through the path of awakening. 22831 From: gazita2002 Date: Thu Jun 12, 2003 3:59pm Subject: Re: Greetings! --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "sundara12003" wrote: > Hello Everybody, > Dear Sundara, So glad you finally made it to dsg. Christine has also helped me a lot re the computor and this group. I'm sure you will find this very worthwhile and very beneficial. I have a question for you: why can't Nibbana be an object of clinging? I read this in Nina's book on 'Conditions', and it puzzles me. I have some stories for you, but I'll write off-line. Hope you are well and happy, Azita 22832 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Jun 12, 2003 9:11pm Subject: Re: [dsg] The Buddha's Teachings Preventing Suicide Dear Suan, a beautiful story, anumodana Nina. op 12-06-2003 15:08 schreef abhidhammika op suanluzaw@b...: > During February this year (2003), my presence in Canberra and his > knowledge of my name and contact number prevented a gentleman from > committing suicide. When he became my client, he told me he had > picked up his kitchen knife to kill himself. He suddenly remembered a > pamphlet about bodhiology and decided to give me a call. Of course, I > at once asked him to come and see me for treatment of his depression. > He has recovered from depression and is now happily working to raise > his 7-year-old daughter. 22833 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Jun 12, 2003 9:11pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Greetings! Dear Sundara, I am glad you joined, it is very nice to hear from old friends in this way. Welcome to the list, hoping to hear about your experiences, Nina. op 12-06-2003 12:51 schreef Jonothan Abbott op jonoabb@y...: > Sundara > > Welcome to the list. 22834 From: Andrew Date: Thu Jun 12, 2003 11:21pm Subject: A dose of dosa Dear DSGers It has taken me some time to come to terms with what it really MEANS when we say that, for example, anger (dosa) is absolutely real but concepts are not. The other day I was driving along in my car and my mind suddenly created an entirely fictitious set of circumstances in which a person known to me "did" something to annoy me. Then I felt dosa arise. This got me pondering and running for my copy of ADL. There, I read an extract from the Gradual Sayings that the angry person "misconducts himself in deed, in word and thought; so living, so speaking and so thinking" after death he goes to an unfavourable rebirth. Nina also writes "when we have aversion we think that other people are the cause of our aversion. However, our accumulation of dosa is the real cause." It is my common experience that anger (1) is preceded by conceptual thinking or (2) arises "mysteriously" and is explained or indulged further by conceptual thinking. This seems to fit nicely with the notion of prompted and unprompted dosa. Can anyone explain to me whether prompted dosa is always prompted by conceptual thinking? If that is the case, then this illustrates the benefit in being able to distinguish the absolute from the conventional. Hope I am making sense. Metta Andrew PS great to hear from you Sundara! No hurry with the book. 22835 From: Sarah Date: Fri Jun 13, 2003 0:08am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: importance of Meditation Dear Yasa, Y:> The basic teachings of the Buddha remain the same in all these > traditions. That is they accept the , Noble eight fold Path, the > four noble Truth, Paticchasamuppada, and dhana, seela, bhavana. > Bhavana is the meditation, which is practiced by all traditions or > branches of such traditions. The discourses found in the tripitaka > consist mostly of the Buddha's discourses and teachings given to his > disciples the Bikkhus. ..... S: I don’t think anyone has said ‘meditation is not part of the Budha’s teaching’ as you suggest later. I think, furthermore, we all agree that bhavana (meditation) lies at the heart of the Tipitaka. Several of us have written posts about the meaning of bhavana as we understand it, as referring to the development of samatha and vipassana. Meditation, as Nyantiloka says in the dictionary definition, is a rather vague term. Perhaps ‘mental development’ is more appropriate? Meditation often gives an idea of a particular set of actions rather than a particular set of mind-states. Several of us have explained how and why we see the Abhidhamma as an integral part of the Tipitaka. I think some earlier posts, including these ones, show how the core of the Abhidhamma was recited at the First Council: 12658, 19780 Without any dispute, I think, we know that the Abhidhamma and commentaries were preserved and recited in Sri Lanka (your country) and we read accounts in the Mahavamsa and Culavamsa about the incredible respect held by not only the Mahavira monks, but also by kings and lay-folk for all parts of the teaching. We read about the incredible number of arahants in the old days and how the bhikkhus would sooner die in famines than show any disrespect. Kings would set the Abhidhamma texts in gold and of course Buddhaghosa wrote most his commentaries here (including the Abhidhamma commentaries) which were immediately highly revered and expounded. If this same respect is not apparent today in some Buddhist countries, we know that it is merely indicative of the deline of the teaching. Many people believe they can just read one sutta, such as the Satipatthana Sutta, and that this is sufficient for ‘meditation’. However, even in the Buddha’s times, bhikkhus and lay-folk would approach key disciples such as Sariputta or Mahakaccana for further elaboration and detail. The commentaries are elaborations by key disciples and we can see from the one which is being posted now on the Satipatthana Sutta, that it is packed with abhidhamma detail. For most of us, to really appreciate this detail, it is essential to consider and reflect and study the Abhidhamma to some extent as we’re doing here. The Buddha’s disciples went to extraordinary lengths to recite the entire collection of his teachings and to preserve them in writing, spending months at a time in some of the caves you mention for our benefit. 30 years ago when living in a kuti (as you describe) in Sri Lanka, I thought the Maha Satipatthana Sutta was pretty simple to understand and follow. Now I see it as extraordinarily complex and I find I need to read and consider widely and develop a lot more understanding in order to really appreciate its depth and detail. If it were a simple matter of taking a few phrases from one or two suttas and going to a cave to ‘meditate’ and become enlightened, why would the disciples have gone to such extraordinary lengths to preserve the entire collections of teachings? I don’t consider -- or wish others like yourself to consider -- that any habit or practice in daily life which is held dear or considered as an essential or integral part of how one understands bhavana, should be abandoned. That again would be setting a rule or prescription that everyone should look and behave alike. I do consider that by understanding more about the nature of paramattha dhammas, one will be less inclined to attach significance to time, occasion, place, position or activity as far as ‘meditation’ is concerned. I quite appreciate that this is probably a minority view and most Buddhists today would support your suggestions to the contrary. ..... Y: > Nowhere, in the tripita, Buddha had asked his disciples to use the > Abhidhamma teachings for the purpose of meditation. To use the > Abhidhamma now to "be mindful of the moment" to attain Nibbana is > like climbing a mountain in search of water, when there is plenty > below. ..... S: I think the purpose of any part of the teachings is to help right understanding develop to see the non-self characteristic of conditioned realities. For some of us, there is no distinction or conflict between what is taught in the various sections of the Tipitaka - there are still the same ‘all’ to be known. Perhaps, sometimes, it is necessary to climb the mountain to get a clearer perspective of what would have been apparent to those with more insight -- like some of the key disciples such as Sariputta -- and to understand the distinction between the mirages and the truths. Again, I wouldn’t suggest that everyone needs to be familiar with the Abhidhamma texts (and I’m certainly not;-)), but I think the careful consideration and reflection of the truths can be very helpful as essential conditions for deeper and more direct understanding of these same truths. I’m sorry if you see any of the comments made here as being disrespectful in anyway, Yasa, or if they are a condition for any negative feelings. It’s not my intention. I think there are other members here who have also felt similar reactions and will fully sympathise if you do feel like this, however. You will be doing many members and lurkers a great favour if you continue to voice and discuss your views (however different from mine or others), and any particular suttas with us. I think we all greatly appreciate your contributions and your willingness to share your well-versed reflections. With metta, Sarah ====== 22836 From: Sarah Date: Fri Jun 13, 2003 1:10am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Lee- nibbana and sabhava --- To Mike: Solemn Utterance Hi Victor, I think I’m having to do a little mind-reading here..... --- yu_zhonghao wrote: > Hi Sarah and all, > > Thank you for your reply. > > How is nibbana, the cessation of dukkha, the unborn -- unbecome -- > unmade -- unfabricated, mind-object/idea/dhammayatana that > disintegrates? ..... S: I thought we were discussing the Sabba (“All’) Sutta which doesn’t talk about nibbana or any of the other realities disintegrating. So what you probably are now considering are other suttas in the same section of Salyatanasamyutta in SN, such as ‘Subject to Disintegration’ (Bodhi p1163). As Nina uses this one in her book, ADL, let me copy a section with the text and some of her comments: ***** ADL: “ The world in the sense of paramattha dhammas is in the teachings called 'the world in the ariyan sense'. The ariyan has developed the wisdom which sees things as they are ; he truly knows 'the world'. We read in the 'Kindred Sayings' (IV, Salayatana-vagga, Kindred Sayings on Sense, Second Fifty, Ch. IV, par. 84, Transitory) that Ananda said to the Buddha: ' "The world! The world" is the saying, lord. Pray, how far, lord, does this saying go?' ' What is transitory by nature, Ananda, is called "the world" in the ariyan sense. And what, Ananda, is transitory by nature? The eye, Ananda, is transitory by nature... objects... tongue... mind is transitory by nature, mind-states, mind-consciousness, mind-contact, whatsoever pleasant feeling, unpleasant feeling or indifferent feeling which arises owing to mind-contact, that also is transitory by nature. What is thus transitory, Ananda, is called "the world" in the ariyan sense.' Someone may think that he can truly know himself without knowing the world as it appears through the six doors. He may think that he knows his anger and attachment, but, in fact, he has not experienced them as they are: only different types of nama and not self. As long as he takes realities for self he does not really know himself and he cannot eradicate defilements. He clings to an idea, to the concept of self; he has not directly experienced any characteristic of reality. It is difficult to know when there are lobha, dosa and moha and it is difficult to be aware also of the more subtle degrees of akusala. When one starts to develop 'insight' one realizes how little one knows oneself.” ***** S: Back to our discussion and the point I think, is that we need to read the suttas very carefully in order to understand the exact context and meaning. You raise a very good point. Whereas the Sabba sutta, as I read it and as clarified by the commentary, clearly refers to the 12 ayatana including nibbana, other suttas such as this one describing the disintegrating nature of phenomena which make up the world, is referring only to conditioned realities in the three planes as in definition iii) I gave below: S: “Bhikkhu Bodhi gives the following summary from the Commentary to the ‘Sabba Sutta’: **** Spk : The all (sabba) is fourfold: i) the all-inclusive all (sabbasabba), i.e everything knowable, all of which comes into range of the Buddha’s knowledge of omniscience; ii) the all of the sense bases (aayatanasabba), ie, the phenomena of the four planes; iii) the all of personal identity (sakkaayasabba), i.e., the phenomena of the three planes; and iv) the partial all (padesabba), i.e, the five physical sense objects. Each of these, from i) to iv), has a successively narrower range than its predecessor. In this sutta the all of the sense bases< aayatanasabba> is intended. The four planes are the three mundane planes and the supramundane plane (the four paths, their fruits, and Nibbana).” S: Although B.Bodhi doesn’t give a comy note to this effect for ‘Subject to Disintegration’(i.e. that it refers to the 3 planes only), he does for an earlier one in Salyatanasamyutta, ‘The External is Impermanent’,First Fifty, ch1,4 (p1134) which describes how: “Sounds...Odours...Tastes...Tactile Objects....Mental phenomena are impermanent.” The Comy clarifies that the mental-phenomena objects of the three planes only are being referred to. I think these simple but deep passages are good examples of how clearly we need to read, consider and use the guidance of the commentary and Abhidhamma in order to really understand the meanings. We cannot just look at one sutta in isolation but need to consider what we have learnt and understood in other parts of the Tipitaka as well. For example, we know from other texts that only conditioned dhammas are impermanent and therefore know nibbana is not being referred to in this context. Look forward to any others you have in mind, Victor;-) Metta, Sarah ===== 22837 From: bodhi dhamma Date: Fri Jun 13, 2003 1:38am Subject: cessation of rebirth & kammic activities Dear Bros. & Sis. I am a new comer of the group and particularly weak in Abhidhamma. I hope you all can help to explain, from abhidhamma's standpoint, as to why arahants are not subject to rebirths though they do perform wholesome kammic activities in day-to-day life. Thank you very much --------------------------------- Yahoo! Plus - For a better Internet experience 22838 From: robmoult Date: Fri Jun 13, 2003 4:26am Subject: Dosa and Kukkucca Hi All, Help! Some quick questions: Dosa can arise with respect to things past; could this be called guilt? Dosa can arise with respect to things future; could this be called fear? It would appear that Kukkucca is the same as dosa over things past. If this is so, why does dosa over the past get it's own cetasika while dosa over the future (i.e. fear?) not get it's own cetasika? Kukkucca is sometimes translated as "worry"; is this not the same as fear? Metta, Rob M :-) 22839 From: robmoult Date: Fri Jun 13, 2003 4:35am Subject: Re: cessation of rebirth & kammic activities Hi Bodhi, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, bodhi dhamma wrote: > I am a new comer of the group and particularly weak in Abhidhamma. > I hope you all can help to explain, from abhidhamma's standpoint, as > to why arahants are not subject to rebirths though they do perform > wholesome kammic activities in day-to-day life. The actions of an Arahant are not "wholesome kammic activities". The actions of an Arahant are called kiriya (functional) because they do not create kamma (neither good kamma nor bad kamma). In the chart of cittas (first chapter of Abhidhammattha sangaha), wholesome kammic activities are cittas 31-38 whereas the kiriya cittas (for Arahants only) are cittas 47-54. These kiriya cittas that arise in the Arahant are still "beautiful" as they contain the three wholsome roots. I hope that this helps. Metta, Rob M :-) 22840 From: Date: Fri Jun 13, 2003 1:42am Subject: Re: [dsg] A dose of dosa Hi, Andrew - In a message dated 6/13/03 2:22:50 AM Eastern Daylight Time, athel60@t... writes: > Dear DSGers > It has taken me some time to come to terms with what it really MEANS > when we say that, for example, anger (dosa) is absolutely real but > concepts are not. The other day I was driving along in my car and my > mind suddenly created an entirely fictitious set of circumstances in > which a person known to me "did" something to annoy me. Then I felt > dosa arise. This got me pondering and running for my copy of ADL. > There, I read an extract from the Gradual Sayings that the angry > person "misconducts himself in deed, in word and thought; so living, > so speaking and so thinking" after death he goes to an unfavourable > rebirth. > Nina also writes "when we have aversion we think that other people are > the cause of our aversion. However, our accumulation of dosa is the > real cause." > It is my common experience that anger (1) is preceded by conceptual > thinking or (2) arises "mysteriously" and is explained or indulged > further by conceptual thinking. > This seems to fit nicely with the notion of prompted and unprompted > dosa. Can anyone explain to me whether prompted dosa is always > prompted by conceptual thinking? > If that is the case, then this illustrates the benefit in being able > to distinguish the absolute from the conventional. > Hope I am making sense. Metta > Andrew > PS great to hear from you Sundara! No hurry with the book. > > > ============================= I think your insight here is very good. As I see it, anger is reactive, and it is a reaction to the unpleasantness of unpleasant contacts. Now it seems to me that there are two categories of contact that can be experienced as unpleasant (or as pleasant), and not solely neutrally: bodily contact including sense of touch and bodily sensations, and mental contact. Sights and sounds, and possibly even tastes and smells (on their own, without further mental concocting), I believe are said to have neutral feel, and that seems right to me. If this analysis is correct, then, with the exception of anger engendered by unpleasant bodily contact (directly in response to the discomfort), all our anger is reaction to unpleasant mental phenomena. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 22841 From: m. nease Date: Fri Jun 13, 2003 5:47am Subject: Re: [dsg] Dosa and Kukkucca Hi Rob, ----- Original Message ----- From: robmoult To: Sent: Friday, June 13, 2003 4:26 AM Subject: [dsg] Dosa and Kukkucca > Hi All, > > Help! Some quick questions: > > Dosa can arise with respect to things past; could this be called > guilt? Is anything past? Any concept of the past is present, I think. > Dosa can arise with respect to things future; could this be called > fear? Could be--of course, the idea of the future occurs in the present too. > It would appear that Kukkucca is the same as dosa over things past. > If this is so, why does dosa over the past get it's own cetasika > while dosa over the future (i.e. fear?) not get it's own cetasika? As I understand it, kukkucca pertains specifically to akusala done and kusala undone. So it does seem to me (parenthetically) to take a concept (past action/inaction) as its object. > Kukkucca is sometimes translated as "worry"; Unless I'm mistaken, this refers specifically to the kind of worry above. > is this not the same as > fear? Ottaapa is fear of wrongdoing (and a universal beautiful cetasika, interestingly)--bhaya (fear) isn't its own cetasika, I don't think. (CMA lists bhaya~naa.na as an insight knowledge ("...(of dissolving things) as fearful"). I think our conventional use of the word fear refers to a lot of different cetasikas, personally. So many different forms of aversion (often alternating rapidly with various forms of desire)--hard to sort them all out but worth the trouble, I think, even conceptually. mike 22842 From: Date: Fri Jun 13, 2003 2:02am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Lee- nibbana and sabhava --- To Mike: Solemn Utterance Hi, Sarah (and Victor) - In a message dated 6/13/03 4:11:39 AM Eastern Daylight Time, sarahdhhk@y... writes: > Whereas the Sabba sutta, as I read > it and as clarified by the commentary, clearly refers to the 12 ayatana > including nibbana, other suttas such as this one describing the > disintegrating nature of phenomena which make up the world, is referring > only to conditioned realities in the three planes as in definition iii) I > gave below: > ============================= The Sabba Sutta (from ATI) reads as follows: ******************************************* "Monks, I will teach you the All. Listen & pay close attention. I will speak." "As you say, lord," the monks responded. The Blessed One said, "What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas. This, monks, is called the All. [1 ] Anyone who would say, 'Repudiating this All, I will describe another,' if questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for his statement, would be unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put to grief. Why? Because it lies beyond range." *********************************************** I fail to see how this includes nibbana. Unless nibbana simply is "the all", but with the defilements absent, I do not see how one could justify seeing a "nibbana dhatu" as included here. As it stands, this listing of "the all" does not include a dhamma called "nibbana," and, moreover, this sutta denies the existence of any dhamma beyond this"all". This seems to me to put one in the position of either denying the existence of nibbana (untenable from a Buddhist perspective), or of identifying it with samsara-freed-of-defilements (a Mahayana perspective), or as seeing it not as a thing at all, but as a mere absence - the absence of defilement (also a Mahayana perspective, and that of many Theravadins as well). With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 22843 From: bodhi dhamma Date: Fri Jun 13, 2003 8:41am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: cessation of rebirth & kammic activities robmoult wrote: Hi Bodhi, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, bodhi dhamma wrote: > I am a new comer of the group and particularly weak in Abhidhamma. > I hope you all can help to explain, from abhidhamma's standpoint, as > to why arahants are not subject to rebirths though they do perform > wholesome kammic activities in day-to-day life. The actions of an Arahant are not "wholesome kammic activities". The actions of an Arahant are called kiriya (functional) because they do not create kamma (neither good kamma nor bad kamma). In the chart of cittas (first chapter of Abhidhammattha sangaha), wholesome kammic activities are cittas 31-38 whereas the kiriya cittas (for Arahants only) are cittas 47-54. These kiriya cittas that arise in the Arahant are still "beautiful" as they contain the three wholsome roots. I hope that this helps. Metta, Rob M :-) Thank you Rob, Further to the above, what happen to the wholesome cittas Nos:31-38 in the case of arahants ? Have all these cittas been "eradicated" on attainment of arahanthood ? with metta Bodhi 22844 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Jun 13, 2003 10:15am Subject: Abhidhamma in Kraeng Kacang, Ch 4, no 4 Abhidhamma in Kraeng Kacang, Ch 4, no 4 The Abhidhamma is immediately applied in the development of Satipatthåna. The Commentary to the ³Satipatthåna Sutta² (Middle Length Sayings I, no 10) and also the ³Visuddhimagga² (VIII, 69) often use the word ³yogåvacara², which is translated as ³meditator². Yoga means skill, and avacara means frequenting, going around. Acharn Supee explained that yogåvacara is not a static notion, that it is the citta that develops paññå. The Buddha taught by way of convention, vohåra, or by way of ultimate realities. When the word yogåvacara is used, the Buddha teaches by way of convention, by way of persons (puggala desana); however, yogåvacara refers to the ultimate reality of the citta that develops paññå. If we understand that in the ultimate sense life lasts only as long as one moment of citta that experiences an object, this explanation becomes very meaningful; it is not at all theoretical. It helps us to see that meditation is only one moment of citta and that understanding can be developed in a moment. What else is there but the present moment to develop understanding? In this way the word yogåvacara can be a reminder not to be neglectful, but to consider and contemplate the dhamma appearing now. This can be a condition for the arising of sati-sampajañña when the time is ripe. We discussed the meaning of the word samatha. Samatha is actually a moment of kusala citta, citta that is free from akusala. Acharn Sujin said that there can be samatha at this moment. There is calm with each kusala citta, but since these moments are very short, it is difficult to know the characteristic of calm. We cannot know the characteristic of calm merely by thinking about it. There must be right understanding of samatha, the characteristic of samatha should be known at the present moment. Direct understanding can distinguish the moment of kusala citta and the moment of akusala citta. Thus, we need sati-sampajañña in samatha as well as in vipassanå, but they are of different levels in the case of samatha and of vipassanå. We read in the Scriptures about people who had accumulated the inclination to the development of calm and who could, by means of specific meditation subjects, attain high degrees of calm, even different stages of jhåna. The ³Visuddhimagga² (Ch II-XII) describes the way of development of calm by means of specific meditation subjects. However, also for those who are unable to develop high degrees of calm, there are four meditation subjects which can condition moments of calm in daily life. We read in the Subcommentary to the ³Satipatthåna Sutta² (Middle Length Sayings I, 10) about four meditation subjects for all occasions: The words, the meditation subjects for all occasions, mean: recollection of the Buddha, loving-kindness, mindfulness of death, and meditation of foulness. This set of four meditations which is guarded by the yogi (practitioner), he called "the meditation subjects for all occasions". 22845 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Jun 13, 2003 10:15am Subject: Perfections. Ch 10, loving-kindness, no 2 Perfections. Ch 10, loving-kindness, no 2 We should realize which of the perfections are still inadequately developed in our daily life. When we assist others, we should find out to what extent we have developed loving-kindness. When we compare the development of loving-kindness to the development of the other perfections, is mettå developed more, less or equal to the other perfections? If we have developed the other perfections but our inclination to assist others with kindness is deficient, we should find out the reason for this. Is it because we are already pleased with our own kusala or is it because of defilements, such as conceit, clinging to the importance of self? We may think that it is not necessary to help someone else. Or, when we have given assistance to someone else we may wonder what the other person will be thinking about us. We should find out whether such thoughts are kusala or akusala. We should instead give assistance to someone without paying attention to what he thinks about us, no matter whether he rejoices in our deed or whether he blames us, because in reality he cannot harm us. What he thinks about us concerns only himself, not us. We should realize that no matter how much kusala we have performed already, it is not yet enough. We may believe that it is sufficient, but even when we have developed kusala and realized the four noble Truths to the degree of the streamwinner, sotåpanna, it is not yet enough. All defilements should be eradicated and this is realized at the stage of arahatship. Therefore, if someone is an ordinary person, not yet an ariyan who has reached the stage of the sotåpanna, he should not be neglectful and believe that he has already sufficiently developed kusala. No matter how many good deeds we have done, it never is enough. When sati arises we can know what type of akusala is the reason for being disinclined to assist someone else. It may be because of selfishness, or because of conceit, or because we believe that we waste our time, that it is not useful to help others. Some people think that they have done many good deeds already and therefore, they do not want to associate with others. One should ask oneself whether such a thought is kusala or akusala. If we associate with others in order to assist them, the citta is kusala. Thus, we should associate with others so that we can support them to a greater extent. When we are able to have friendliness to all people we shall not be neglectful of the perfection of mettå, loving-kindness. There should be no limits to mettå, because if we restrict it there may not be mettå but lobha, attachment, which is akusala, not kusala. If we only consider the outward appearance of our deeds, attachment and loving-kindness may appear to be similar. When we perform a good deed for the sake of someone who is close to us, whom we respect and love, it seems that this is motivated by kusala, by mettå. However, why can we not be kind in the same way to someone else, no matter who he is? If there is true mettå it should be exactly the same whether we perform an act of kindness to someone who is close to us, with whom we are familiar, or to a person we are not familiar with. If there is true mettå, if we want to develop the perfection of mettå, we should not restrict mettå to particular persons. When we limit mettå, we should investigate the characteristic of the citta at that moment, we should know whether it is kusala citta or akusala citta. 22846 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Jun 13, 2003 10:15am Subject: Dating of texts, to Jim. advice needed. Dear Jim, It is said of some parts of the Tipitaka, such as the Patisambidhamagga, that because of its style it is of later date. I am not an expert and cannot judge about Pali forms and style which are more recent. Can there be other reasons for a difference in style: the contents, or, its being written down at a later date, although it was originally rehearsed at the first Council? Such questions come up time and again and I would appreciate your ideas about it, Nina. 22847 From: robmoult Date: Fri Jun 13, 2003 10:39am Subject: [dsg] Re: cessation of rebirth & kammic activities Hi Bodhi, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, bodhi dhamma wrote: > Further to the above, what happen to the wholesome cittas Nos:31- 38 in the case of arahants ? Have all these cittas been "eradicated" on attainment of arahanthood ? In Buddhism, everything (except Nibbana) depends on conditions to arise. In the case of an Arahant, conditions do not exist to support the arising of cittas 31-38; this also applies to cittas 1-12 (unwholesome cittas rooted in attachment, aversion and delusion). If something cannot exist because the conditions to support it are no longer present, then we could say that that thing has been "eradicated" or "uprooted", but these terms might be misunderstood in this context. Hope this helps. Metta, Rob M :-) 22848 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Fri Jun 13, 2003 0:09pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Lee- nibbana and sabhava --- To Mike: Solemn Utterance Hi Sarah, Thank you for your reply. Let me ask the following: Is mind-object/idea/dhammayatana satisfactory or unsatisfactory/dukkha? How is nibbana, the cessation of dukkha, unborn -- unbecome -- unmade -- unfabricated, mind-object/idea/dhammayatana? Thank you again for your reply. Your thought and comment are appreciated. Peace, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > Hi Victor, [snip] > Metta, > > Sarah 22849 From: christine_forsyth Date: Fri Jun 13, 2003 4:52pm Subject: To like or not to like Hello everyone, During a casual lunch-time discussion at work this week the question arose of whether loving or disliking someone was only, or mainly, to do with the other person's appearance, worthiness, behaviour, or similarities between oneself and the other. Most people seemed to feel that particular instances of speech or action were not deciding factors, and that whatever it was that caused like or dislike to arise, it was not easily recognised, and certainly not controllable. Vibes, pheronomes, lust, auras, personality or lifestyle similarities, or similar value systems, were all mentioned but not thought of 'as enough'. But 'love' was unquestionably seen by the majority of the diners as the supreme virtue - 'God is Love' had universal approval round the table from those of Hindu, Christian and Isamic faiths - only the Buddist wasn't sure about that point. This conversation dwindled down, as they do, and was probably forgotten by most. Question: At the time, I remember wondering whether the Dhamma values the state of 'feeling no increase in liking of one being over another', and if so, how we are instructed to achieve that state. Wouldn't all love be 'attachment'? I am familiar with the MN 87 Piyajatika Sutta 'From One Who is Dear' where the inevitable consequence of love is sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/majjhima/mn087.html I recognise that my feelings are uncontrollable, and that even a Sotapana ( Stream Enterer) and a Sakadagami (Once Returner) still has 'feelings' of various sorts - but does anyone have any thoughts or sutta references on how we are to train ourselves with regard to others, and whether it is preferable to love all universally or no- one particularly at all? ? Would this state of being unaffected by (i.e. not caring particularly about individual others) be called 'equanimity' or something else? metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- 22850 From: rjkjp1 Date: Fri Jun 13, 2003 6:42pm Subject: Re: A dose of dosa Hi Andrew, I agree with Howard that your reflections are sound. Usually us 'spiritual seekers' don't like dosa and think such as us shouldn't have it. This means we hide from it or supress it. Someone who doesn't care about such matters simply lives with it - and may even feel damned justified in having such reactions! The other way is to investigate and learn about dosa -such as you are doing. Can dosa arise when there is insight into paramattha? In fact it can't. However there is a type of subtle wrong practice where we try hard to know paramattha - focus on hardness, or feeling for example- trying to stop concepts arising. Dosa can occur at such moments too. Robertk In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Andrew" wrote: > Dear DSGers > It has taken me some time to come to terms with what it really MEANS > when we say that, for example, anger (dosa) is absolutely real but > concepts are not. The other day I was driving along in my car and my > mind suddenly created an entirely fictitious set of circumstances in > which a person known to me "did" something to annoy me. Then I felt > dosa arise. This got me pondering and running for my copy of ADL. > > It is my common experience that anger (1) is preceded by conceptual > thinking or (2) arises "mysteriously" and is explained or indulged > further by conceptual thinking. > This seems to fit nicely with the notion of prompted and unprompted > dosa. Can anyone explain to me whether prompted dosa is always > prompted by conceptual thinking? > If that is the case, then this illustrates the benefit in being able > to distinguish the absolute from the conventional. > Hope I am making sense. Metta > Andrew > PS great to hear from you Sundara! No hurry with the book. 22851 From: monomuni Date: Fri Jun 13, 2003 9:06pm Subject: Fruitfull & Happy Uposatha Greeting! Venerable Friends: May your fullmoon Uposatha day & night be Fruitfull & Happy! This day here on Sri Lanka is called Poson Puya. Info on Uposatha Buddhist Holy Observance Days see: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/uposatha.html There follows a minor series on the Mental Perfections. May you enjoy & be inspired. Friendship is the GREATEST !! & the whole Motivation behind the entire Noble Life ... Samanera Samahita Cypress Hut, Gangamulla Bambarella, Thawalantenna 20838. Central Province. SRI LANKA. Email: monomuni@m... WWW: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Buddha-Direct : - ] -- A saying of the Buddha from http://metta.lk/ Distinctly understanding this (difference) the wise (intent) on heedfulness rejoice in heedfulness, delighting in the realm of Ariyas. Random Dhammapada Verse 22 22852 From: monomuni Date: Fri Jun 13, 2003 9:21pm Subject: What is good Giving ? ( = Dana ~ caga) Friends: GENEROSITY: And what is the treasure of generosity? When a disciple of the Noble Ones whose mentality is all cleared of disgracing miserliness, living at home, is freely generous & open-handed, delighting in being magnanimous, responsive to every request &, enjoying the giving of alms. Such is this treasure called generosity." AN VII 6 --- Just as a filled pot, which is overturned pours out all its water, leaving nothing back, even & exactly so should one give to those in need. whether low, middle or high, like the overturned pot, holding nothing back. Jataka Nidana [128-129] --- The Generosity of Giving, The Kindness in Speech, The Benefit of Service, The Impartiality treating all Alike, These 4 threads of sympathy upholds this world like the axle do the cart. AN II 32 --- Giving food, one gives & gets strength Giving clothes, one gives & gets beauty Giving light, one gives & gets vision Giving transportation, one gives & gets ease. Giving shelter one gives all, Yet one who instructs in the True Dhamma - The supreme Teaching of the Buddhas - Such one gives the quite divine ambrosia! SN I 32 --- These are these five rewards of generosity: One is liked and charming to people at large, One is admired & respected by wise people, one's good reputation is spread wide about, One does not neglect a householder's true duties, and with the break-up of the body - at the moment of death - one reappears in a happy destination, in the plane of the divine worlds. AN V.35 --- There are these two kinds of gifts: material gifts & gifts of Dhamma. The supreme gift is that of Dhamma. There are these two kinds of sharing: material sharing & sharing of Dhamma. The supreme sharing is that of Dhamma. There are these two kinds of help: Material help & help with the Dhamma. This is the supreme of the two: help with the Dhamma … It 98 --- The gift of Dhamma exceeds all other gifts. Dhammapada 354 --- The Bodhisatta once as king Sivi gave both his eyes to a beggar who was Sakka the king deity in disguise, who desired to test him. He remembered "While I was wishing to give, while I was giving and after this giving there was neither contrariety nor opposition in mind as it was for the purpose of awakening itself! Neither were these eyes nor the rest of myself disagreeable to me. Omniscience was dear to me, therefore I gave the eyes." The Basket of Conduct Cariyapitaka I-8 Full story: Sivi Jataka no. 499. --- The Bodhisatta once as the Wise Hare gave his roasted body as alms by jumping into a fire: He remembered: "There came a beggar and asked for food. Myself I gave so that he might eat. In alms there was none equal to me. In alms I had thereby reached ultimate perfection." From then & the rest of this world-cycle the moon will display a characteristic 'hare-in-the-moon' sign. Sasa-Jataka no. 316 --- Giving of things, treasures, external possessions, job, position, wife, & child is the first perfection of giving. Giving the offer of one's organs, limbs, & senses is the second higher perfection of giving. Giving the sacrifice of one's life is the ultimate perfection of giving. The clarifier of sweet meaning 89 (Commentary on Buddhavamsa) Madhuratthavilasini [59] Buddhadatta: 5th century. --- Generosity is the first perfection (parami) Come On Now ! This One is the first one to adopt, practice, develop, refine, & perfect resolutely: Acquire Perfection in your Giving then you can attain to the absolute of Wisdom. Jataka Nidana (introduction) -oo0oo- Inspired by 'Gemstones of Good Dhamma': Wheel 342/344 1987 Ven. S. Dhammika, BPS Buddhist Publication Society, Kandy, Sri Lanka. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/wheels/wheel342.html Respectfully, for free forward : - ] -- A saying of the Buddha from http://metta.lk/ Not by a shaven head does an undisciplined man, who utters lies, become a monk. How will one who is full of desire and greed be a monk? Random Dhammapada Verse 264 22853 From: monomuni Date: Fri Jun 13, 2003 9:32pm Subject: What is good morality ? ( = Sila) Friends: MORALITY: Avoiding all Harm; Doing only Good; Refining pure the Mind; That is the Buddha-Dhamma ! Dhammapada 183 --- Morality is the foundation, the initiator & origin of all that is good & beautiful. One Must therefore purify morality. Theragatha 612 --- Clean cultivated morality brings all success! Theragatha 608 --- Morality is a mighty Power Morality is a forceful Weapon Morality is a supreme Jewel Morality is a marvelous Protection Theragatha 614 --- Harmless towards all living beings, Speaking only kind & wise truths, Taking nothing not given, Enjoying only one's own partner, Never abusing drinks or drugs. Having given up & left all behind these five harmful acts such One truly possess right moral. AN III 205-6 --- What, Venerable Sir, is the rewarding advantage of morality?" Freedom from regret, Ananda. And what is the advantage of freedom from regret? Joy, Ananda. And what is the benefit of joy? Rapture, Ananda. And what is the gain of rapture? Tranquility, Ananda. And what is the effect of tranquility? Happiness, Ananda. And what is the result of happiness? Concentration, Ananda. And what is the advance of concentration? Vision and knowledge of how things develop. What is improving when seeing & knowing how things develop? Disgust and detachment, Ananda. And what is the advantage of disgust and detachment? Direct knowledge of Certain & Complete Release, Ananda… AN X.1 --- Silam sila viya: Virtue is like Rock. A Solid foundation! --- Intention always comes first Intention is of all states the primer By intention are all things initiated By construction of mind are all phenomena formed So - if with good intention one thinks, speak or act Joy surely follows one like the never-leaving shadow However !!! - if with evil intention one thinks, speak or act: Pain certainly follows one like the wheel follows the car. Dhammapada 1+2 --- Both the moral & immoral doings; Both the good & the Bad actions; That human beings do here; That is truly their own possession. That they take along with them when they go, That is what follows them like a shadow, that never leaves. So do only what is admirable & advantageous, as an accumulating investment in the future life. Good prior doings are the only support for beings when they rearise in another world… SN III 4 --- Here and now the good-doer rejoices... Even so after passing away and re-emerging, the doer of good reaps only joy and satisfaction ... So both here and there the wise with merit well done & stored enjoys the purity of prior actions. Dhammapada 15 --- Here and now the bad-doer suffers... Even so after passing away and re-emerging, the doer of wrong reaps only pain and regret ... So both here and there the fool with wrong view & evil behavior suffers the grief from the inevitable agony resulting from bad prior actions. Dhammapada 16 --- As a yak-ox watch her tail even onto death, without breaking through when caught in thorns, guard your doings as dear as your life by avoiding overstepping the fine line limiting right from wrong. The Basket of Conduct, Cariyapitaka --- The Bodhisatta once as the Naga serpent King Sankhapala guarded his precepts of moral habit even when tortured: Though pierced with sharp bamboo stakes and hacked with hunting knives I raged no anger against these hunters as this was my perfection of Morality. Sankhapala Jataka no. 524 --- Morality is the second perfection (parami) Come On Now ! This One is the second one to adopt, practice, develop, refine, & perfect resolutely: The Moral Precepts to perfection keep then you can attain to the absolute of Wisdom. These timeless laws of only Good which all the mighty Seers of the past have fully followed & made their Way: Jataka Nidana (introduction) --- The 5 precious precepts: 1. Panatipata veramani sikkhapadam samadiyami I accept the training rule to avoid killing breathing beings. 2. Adinnadana veramani sikkhapadam samadiyami I accept the training rule to avoid taking any that is not given. 3. Kamesu micchacara veramani sikkhapadam samadiyami I accept the training rule to abstain from sexual misconduct. 4. Musavada veramani sikkhapadam samadiyami I accept the training rule to desist from incorrect speech. 5. Suramerayamajja pamadatthana veramani sikkhapadam samadiyami I accept the training rule to avoid drinks & drugs causing carelessness. -oo0oo- Sincerely yours, for free forward : - ] -- A saying of the Buddha from http://metta.lk/ Cut off the five fetters and pertaining to this shore (self-illusion, doubt, indulgence in wrongful rites and ceremonies, sense-desires and hatred), throw off the five fetters that pertain to the Further Shore (attachment to the realm of form, attachment to formless realms, conceit, restlessness and ignorance), cultivate further five faculties (confidence, energy, mindfulness, concentration and wisdom). He who has destroyed the five fetters (lust, hatred, delusion, pride and false views) is called a "Flood Crosser". Random Dhammapada Verse 370 22854 From: monomuni Date: Fri Jun 13, 2003 9:44pm Subject: What is good Withdrawal? ( = Nekkhamma) Friends: WITHDRAWAL: --- Withdrawal is Removal of Misery Withdrawal is Extraction of Disease. Withdrawal is Pulling out the splinter of Pain. Withdrawal is Retraction from Danger. Withdrawal is Renunciation of Ill. Withdrawal is Letting Go of what is Burning. Withdrawal is Turning Away from what appears Attractive. Withdrawal is Seclusion from what seems Delicious. Withdrawal is Clearing of the Captivating Illusion. Withdrawal is Waking Up from the Enchanting Trance. Withdrawal is Breaking of the Enslaving Addiction. Withdrawal is Protection of what is Entrapping. Withdrawal is Giving Up what is Detrimental. Withdrawal is Discharge of the Infested. Withdrawal is Breaking out of the Prison. Withdrawal is Release from the Suffering. --- The household life is a cramped way choked with dust. To leave it is like coming out into the free space of open air. It is not easy for one who lives at home to live the Noble life completely perfect and pure, bright as mother-of-pearl. Surely I will now shave off my hair & go forth into homelessness. --- Only Misery Arises. Only Misery Ceases. Nothing good is thus lost by leaving it all. --- If one gains an infinite ease by leaving a minor pleasure, the clever one should swap the luminous for the trifling sensual pleasure by leaving this latter boredom behind. Dhammapada 290 --- Lust, I say, is a great flood; it is a whirlpool sucking one down, a constant longing, seeking a hold, continually in operation; difficult to cross is this morass of sensual desire. A sage does not deviate from the good, steady. A recluse stands on firm ground, secluded; withdrawn from all, he is truly called calmed & silenced. Having actually experienced the Dhamma he is independent. He behaves right and does not envy anyone here nor there. He who has left behind pleasure arised from sensing, an attachment difficult to cut off, is freed of both melancholy & any longing since he has cut across the stream and is released. Sutta Nipata IV.15 --- Just as a tree, though cut down, sprouts up again if its roots remain uncut, even & exactly so, until the craving that lies latent is completely rooted out & eliminated without remnants, misery grows up again ever and again. Dhammapada 16 --- Infatuated with lust, impassioned & obsessed, they are caught in their own self-created net, like a spider, which spins it's own web! Cutting through the Wise & Noble Friend go free, Without longing, without greed, leaving all misery behind. Dhammapada 347 --- Let the past be past. Relinquish the future. Let the present be just as it is. Having so gone to the far shore of being, mind is freed from all attachments, from any substrate of existence & Never returns again to birth, aging, or death. Dhammapada 348 --- Any being who becomes stirred by attraction, who is agitated by desire & dominated by lust, directs only mind towards objects of pleasure ... Thereby craving increases & the chains of this prison grows ever stronger! Dhammapada 349 --- Any being that cools down all desires by being alert & ever aware of the inherent danger, directing attention only to the disgusting aspects of all phenomena, such one eliminates craving and thereby wears down & breaks the chains of this prison. Dhammapada 350 --- The one who has reached the end perfected, is fearless, free of craving, desireless & unclinging. Such one has broken the hooks of being and is in the final phase, wearing the last frame. Dhammapada 351 --- Blissful is solitude for one who is content, learned & know the True Dhamma. Blissful is harmlessness towards all breathing beings without exception. Blissful is freedom from any sensual urge whatsoever. Yet, the supreme bliss, is the withdrawal of the abysmal conceit “I am”!’ Udana – Inspiration: II – 1 --- Withdraw, as the man newly freed from prison does not wish himself back in prison. The Basket of Conduct, Cariyapitaka --- The Bodhisatta once as the King Culasutasoma gave up his kingdom. Knowing this withdrawal to be an advantageous victory he remembered: A mighty kingdom I possessed as if it was dropped into my hands. Yet all this tantalizing might I let fall without any even slight trace of clinging. This was my perfection of Withdrawal. Jataka no. 525 --- Withdrawal is the third perfection (parami) Come On Now ! This One is the third one to adopt, practice, develop, refine, & perfect resolutely: Renounce & retire from the entanglement & thereby in perfection grow then you can the absolute of Wisdom come to know. Jataka Nidana (introduction) -oo0oo- Sincerely, for free forward : - ] -- A saying of the Buddha from http://metta.lk/ Riches ruin the foolish, but not those in quest of the Beyond (Nibbana). Through craving for riches the ignorant man ruins himself as (if he were ruining) others. Random Dhammapada Verse 355 Weight Age Gender Female Male 22855 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Jun 13, 2003 9:24pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: nibbana Dear Azita, op 13-06-2003 00:59 schreef gazita2002 op gazita2002@y...: > I have a question for you: why can't Nibbana be an object of > clinging? I read this in Nina's book on 'Conditions', and it puzzles > me. > I have some stories for you, but I'll write off-line. N: Nibbana is the end of clinging, the end of defilements. but you can cling to some concept you have of nibbana, but this is not nibbana. Don't write stories offline, we all are interested! Nina 22856 From: monomuni Date: Fri Jun 13, 2003 10:12pm Subject: What is good Understanding ? (= Panna) Friends: WISDOM: There is the understanding that arises from learning (sutamaya-panna) There is the insight that arises from repeated reflection (cintamaya-panna) There is Wisdom that arises from cultivating meditation (bhavanamaya-panna) DN 33 --- Of minor importance is the loss of family or wealth. Miserable among losses is the loss of Understanding. Of minor consequence is the increase of family or wealth. Supreme among gains is the increase of Intelligence. Therefore, friends, you must train yourself to win that. AN i 14-5 --- When the Noble friend avoids ignorant persons, but instead cultivates, frequents and honors persons who comprehend, teach and review the effects of profound knowledge, then is the ability to understand refined in these three aspects. When the Noble friend is thus leaving ignorance all behind, there is development of the ability to understand. When the Noble friend is developing the ability to understand, this ignorance is left all behind. Because ignorance has been left, quite left, the ability to understand has been developed, quite developed. Because the ability to understand has been developed, quite developed, this ignorance has been left, quite left. Patisambhidamagga --- And how and where, friends, bhikkhus, is the ability to understand to be found ? Among the Four Noble Truths ! The ability to understand is to be found there. One who is wise has faith; one who has faith gets wiser. One who is wise exerts effort; one who exerts effort grows in insight. One who is wise establishes awareness; one who is aware comes to know. One who is wise concentrates mind; one who concentrates really understands. When one leaves behind ignorance, the ability to understand is found in one as being dominated by seeing it as it becomes. This insight ability dominated by seeing, penetrative and clear, then facilitates determination, exertion, establishing, and non-distraction. Comments: Quite logical actually & naturally. Like a ship having 4 anchors, one in each direction, lies all still, stable, not drifting an inch. Patisambhidamagga --- And of what kind, friends, is the controlling ability of Wisdom ? In this, friends, the Noble disciple is possessed of direct knowledge about the rise and fall of all phenomena, which is a Noble insight, a penetrating & ultimate understanding that gradually leads to the utter elimination of all Misery. Such Noble disciple comprehends, as it really is: ' Thus is Misery'. Such Noble disciple comprehends, as it really is: ' Thus is the causal Origin of Misery'. Such Noble disciple comprehends, as it really is: ' Thus is the End of Misery'. Such Noble disciple comprehends, as it really is: ' Thus is the Way to end all Misery'. This, friends, is the controlling ability of Wisdom ... SN V 48-10 Indriya-samyutta --- Friends, there are three characteristic features of the fool: his thinking is wrong, he speech is wrong, & his acts are wrong. by this immorality in thought, speech & deed is the fool recognized. Friends, there are three characteristic qualities of the Wise One: his thinking is right, he speech is right, & his acts are right. by this morality in thought, speech & deed is the Wise One recognized. AN i 101 --- The initiation of directing attention in order to come to see and understand more, is the origin of the ability to understand. (Determined decision to cut doubt) The emergence of enthusiasm stimulated by this initial penetration of discovery, is the causing origin of the ability to understand. The foundation of continual interest stimulated by such deeper understanding, is the root of origin of the ability to understand. The foundation & fixation in single-pointed sameness of meditative absorption stimulated by this initial clarity, is the origin of the ability to understand. The decrease of directing attention in order to see and understand, is the breakdown of the ability to understand . The decrease of enthusiasm though influenced by discovery and penetration, is the decline of the Ability to understand . The unstable attention though influenced by understanding, is the collapse of the ability to understand. The unfixed non-foundation lacking the sameness of meditative absorption though influenced by initial clarity, is the decrease of the ability to understand. The non-appearance and absence of the frustrated confusion of not knowing; The assured confidence caused by the stability of really seeing it as it is; The achievement of a peaceful calmness both of body & mind; The pleasure and joy due to direct, precise, & exact knowledge; are all lasting satisfactions caused by the Ability to Understand. Through seeing, discovering & understanding has the ability to understand escaped from ignorance, escaped from frustration connected with ignorance, escaped from the defilement associated with ignorance, escaped from mental combinations (aggregates) dependent thereon, escaped from all external signs, appearances and symbols of wisdom, escaped from the prior level of understanding by gaining a higher refined wisdom. Patisambhidamagga --- Just as red sandalwood is reckoned as the best of all scented woods, even & exactly so is the ability to understand reckoned the supreme among all the mental qualities that are wings to self-awakening, leading to awakening. And what are the mental qualities that are wings to self-awakening? The faith ability is a mental quality that is a wing to self-awakening leading to awakening. The ability of enthusiasm... of awareness... of concentration... & the ability of the understanding insight in Wisdom are mental qualities that are wings to self-awakening leading to Awakening. SN V 48-55 Indriya-samyutta --- A prince asked: Lord what is the Causing Condition of not seeing, of not knowing ?' The Lord, the Blessed One, the All-Seeing One responded: At such time, prince, when one remain with a mind possessed and overwhelmed by sensual desire, or ill will, or lethargy laziness, or restlessness & regret, or by doubt & uncertainty and do not know & cannot see any refuge, any protection, any shelter, or any ways to escape such sensual lust, ill will, lethargy & laziness, restlessness & regret, and doubt & uncertainty that has arisen - these very conditions -, prince, is the Cause of Not Seeing, is the Cause of Not Knowing. Therefore, not seeing, not knowing have indeed a cause, & originates from these causal requirements called the 5 mental hindrances. Verily are they hindrances, Exalted One! If one, oohh Happy One, overpowered by even a single of these hindrances cannot come to See the truth, cannot come to Know the very truth, what not to speak of, when being overwhelmed by all five hindrances.' But Lord, what is then the Causing Condition of Knowing ?' Regarding this, prince, a friend cultivates the links to wisdom which are Mindful Awareness, Curious Investigation, Enthusiastic Energy, Rapture-of-Joy, Calm Tranquility, One-pointed Concentration, & Balanced Equanimity that are based on seclusion, based on dispassion, based on cessation, that ends in self-surrender. With a mind thus trained, he sees phenomena as they really develop; the links to wisdom that are Mindful Awareness, Curious Investigation, Enthusiastic Energy, Rapture-of-Joy, Calm Tranquility, One-pointed Concentration, & Balanced Equanimity. This, prince, is the Condition, is the Cause of Knowing and Seeing. Thus, knowing and seeing have a cause, have an origin. These, prince, are called "The 7 links to Wisdom"...! Verily are they links to Wisdom, Exalted One! Certainly are they links to Wisdom, Oohh Happy One! If one, Lord, possessed of even a single of these links to Wisdom, can come indeed to See the subtle truth, can come indeed to Know the exact truth, what not to speak of when being possessed by all seven links to Wisdom.... SN V, 46. Bojjhanga-samyutta --- Canal makers direct the water. Arrow makers straighten their shafts. Carpenters plane their pieces of wood. The Wise & Noble tame their Mind. Dhammapada 80 --- Like solid rock is not moved by any storm, even & exactly so remain the wise unshaken whether praised or blamed. Dhammapada 81 --- A learned man who due to his great learning despises those of little learning is like a blind man walking around with a lamp in his hand. Theragatha 1026 --- Happy indeed are those owing nothing. Those who have won wisdom cling to nothing. While those attached to family, friends & property both possessed & obsessed - are as tied to torture. Udana II 6 --- What sort of person is released by Wisdom? (Panna-Vimutti) Here a person without experiencing all the 8 stages of absorption eliminates the mental fermentations completely after having perceived them through insight. Such person is said to be released by Wisdom. The concept of 'persons', Puggala Pannatti 31 What sort of person is one who has won vision ? Here a person truly understands that such is misery, that such is the origin of misery, that such is the ceasing of misery, and that this is the way leading to the cessation of misery. He understands the principles taught by the Tathagata through Wisdom as well as by Practice; and having seen them through wisdom, some of his mental fermentations are completely extinct. This sort of person is said to be one who has won vision, and who if making an end here & now is released by Wisdom. The concept of 'persons', Puggala Pannatti 33 What sort of person is 'One conforming to the Dhamma' ? The ability of wisdom in a person proceeding to realize the fruition stage of 'stream-entrance' develops to a large extent; he cultivates the Noble Path carrying with it Wisdom, preceded & loaded by Wisdom, this sort of person is said to be one conforming to the Dhamma. Such a person practicing the fruition stage of a stream-entrance is one conforming to the Dhamma, while the same person established in the fruition is one who has won vision. The concept of 'persons', Puggala Pannatti 35 --- Just as the great Ocean slopes away gradually, deepens gradually, inclines gradually, and not in an abrupt way like an abyss, even so Paharada, is this teaching and discipline: a gradual training (anupubbasikkha), a gradual practice (anupubbakiriya), a gradual progress (anupubbapatipada); there is no penetration to the highest wisdom in any abrupt way. AN ii 47 --- Asking Questions logically leads to Wisdom: As a bhikkhu walking for alms beg from low, middle and high folks, if one search and ask both low, middle and highly wise teachers, then the insight of the Buddhas shall be yours. The Basket of Conduct, Cariyapitaka --- Wisdom is the fourth perfection (parami) Come On Now ! This One is the fourth one to adopt, practice, develop, refine, & perfect resolutely: Understanding to culmination bring then the absolute of Wisdom is a possible thing. Jataka Nidana (introduction) -oo0oo- Take care, for free forward : - ] -- A saying of the Buddha from http://metta.lk/ When need arises, pleasant (is it to have) friends. Pleasant is it to be content with just this and that. Pleasant is merit when life is at an end. Pleasant is the shunning of all ill. Random Dhammapada Verse 331 22857 From: monomuni Date: Sat Jun 14, 2003 2:12am Subject: What is good Enthusiasm ? ( = Viriya) Friends: ENTHUSIASM Enthusiasm means energy Enthusiasm means effort Enthusiasm means exertion Enthusiasm means interest Enthusiasm means initiative Enthusiasm means endeavor Enthusiasm means action Enthusiasm means intensity Enthusiasm means force Enthusiasm means power Enthusiasm means eagerness Enthusiasm means keenness Enthusiasm means devotion Enthusiasm means dedication Enthusiasm means determination Enthusiasm means commitment Enthusiasm means enjoyment These pave the way for success in all projects. These are thereby instrumental for all perfection. Without these no achievement can ever be accomplished. --- Get up! Sit up! Of what use are your dreams ? How can you sleep when sick, stabbed by the arrow of craving. Sutta Nipata 331 --- Get up! Sit up! Push on your training until reaching peace. Do not let the king of death see you sloppy, and thus deceive & dominate you (like a toy). Sutta Nipata 332 --- The origin of directing attention in order to exert sustained effort, The origin of enthusiasm stimulated by this firm exertion, The origin of unwavering interest stimulated by this firm exertion, The foundation & fixation in single-pointed sameness of absorption stimulated by this initial initiative, is the origin of the ability of enthusiasm. (Determined ability to do, to act).. When the Noble friend avoids lax & lazy persons, cultivates, frequents and honors energetic persons, and reviews own practice within the four best efforts, then is the ability of enthusiasm refined in these three aspects. When the Noble friend is leaving laziness all behind, there is development of the ability of enthusiasm. When the Noble friend is developing the ability of enthusiasm, this idleness is momentarily left all behind. Patisambhidamagga --- Possessed of Energy & Endurance be always earnest in your training. The clever One is not satisfied before the goal of ending misery is reached. Theragatha 585 --- And what, friends, is the feeding for the arising of the Link to Wisdom that is Energy not yet arisen, and food for the growth and increase of already arisen Energy ? The element of initiative, The element of exertion, The element of endurance. Systematic attention to these, is this food for the arising of the Link to Wisdom that is Energy not yet arisen, and food too for the growth and increase of already arisen Energy. And what, friends, is the feeding for the arising of unarisen Lethargy and Laziness, and food for the growth and increase of already arisen Lethargy and Laziness ? It is the apathetic drowsiness, overeaten dullness &, unaware sluggishness of mind! Unsystematic & muddled attention to that, is food for the arising of yet unarisen and for the growth of already arisen Lethargy and Laziness. Samyutta Nikaya XLVI 51 Bojjhanga-samyutta --- It is too cold, it is too hot, It is too early, it is too late! Such bad excuses make one give up the training & miss one more precious opportunity. DN 31 --- And again, prince, a friend cultivates the link to wisdom that is Energy-to-Effort, that is based on seclusion, based on dispassion, based on cessation, which ends in self-surrender. With a mind thus trained he knows, he sees it as it really develops; the link to wisdom that is Energy. This, prince, is the Condition, is the Cause of Knowing and Seeing. SN V, 46. Bojjhanga-samyutta --- Having known the escape from sensual desires And the overcoming of forms, One whose energy is always enthusiastic Reaches the stilling of all construction. Such a bhikkhu who sees rightly Is thereby well released, at ease. Accomplished in knowledge, at peace. That sage has overcome all bonds. Itivuttaka 72 Escape --- And how and where, friends, bhikkhus, is the ability of enthusiasm to be found ? Among the four best efforts ! The ability of enthusiasm is to be found there. When one leaves behind laziness, the ability of enthusiasm is found in one as being dominated by exertion of effort. This ability of enthusiasm dominated by exertion of effort, then facilitates establishment, non-distraction, seeing and determination. The enthusiastic One establishes awareness, one who is aware trains. The enthusiastic One concentrates, one who concentrates exerts effort. The enthusiastic One dig up insight, one who has insight exerts effort. The enthusiastic One find confidence, one who has faith exercises the instruction. Patisambhidamagga --- This straight way has now been clearly shown: Don’t hesitate, walk forward & do not turn around. Urge yourself forward by your own enthusiasm, only thus will you attain Nibbana. Theragatha 637 --- And of what sort, friends, is the controlling ability of effort ? In this, friends, the Noble disciple remains devoted to exertion, resolute in effort, always striving to leave behind bad mental qualities, to cause the emergence of good mental qualities, vigorously restraining himself, not giving up the burden of development and maintenance of good mental qualities. Thus a Noble disciple arises desire, intention, and determination for, exerts energetic striving, lays hold on thought, and focus mind onthe Prevention of the arising of any bad, detrimental and un-clever mental states that have not yet arisen. As to any bad, detrimental, and un-clever mental states, that have already arisen, such Noble learner arise desire, intention and determination for, exerts energetic striving, lays hold on thought, and focus mind on their destruction and elimination. As to any good, advantageous & clever mental states not yet arisen, such Noble learner arise desire, intention and determination for, exerts energetic striving, lays hold on thought, and focus mind solely on causing their arising, on their coming into being. As to any good, advantageous & skilful mental states already arisen such Noble learner arise desire, intention and determination for, exerts energetic striving, lays hold on thought, and focus mind on; their continuation, support, maintenance, refinement, increase, cultivation growth and completion, culminating in their utter perfection. This, friends, is the controlling ability of effort ... SN V 48-10 Indriya-samyutta --- The effort to prevent & to eliminate bad to develop & to maintain good: These are the 4 right efforts taught by the Buddha. AN ii 17 --- At such times, friends, when the mind is Slow, Sluggish, and Heavy: Then it is the Right Occasion: for cultivating the Investigation-by-curiosity enlightenment-factor, for cultivating the Energy-of-Enthusiasm enlightenment-factor, for cultivating the Rapture-of-Joy enlightenment-factor... Why is it so ? When the mind is slow, sluggish, and heavy, it is Easily Raised Up by these mental qualities. Suppose, friends, that a man wants a fire to blaze up, and he put on dry grass, dry wood sticks and blow it with dry hot air and do not cover it with any dust, would that man then see his fire blaze up ? Certainly So, Lord. SN V, 46. Bojjhanga-samyutta --- Well then, Moggallana, whatever perception you have in mind when drowsiness demoralize you down, don't attend to that perception, don't pursue it. Remember instead the Dhamma as you have heard & memorized it, reflect on & examine it. Then raise & repeat aloud in detail the Dhamma as you have learnt it. Then pull both you earlobes and rub your limbs with both your hands. Then get up from your seat and, after washing your eyes with cold water, look around upward in all directions and identify the major stars & planets. Then attend to the perception of inner light, resolve on the perception of daytime, by night as by day, and by day as by night. By means of awareness thus open & unhampered, develop a brightened mind. It's possible that by doing this you will shake off your drowsiness. But if by doing this you don't shake off your drowsiness, then perceiving what is both in front & behind set a distance to meditate walking back & forth, your senses inwardly set, your mind not getting lost outwards. It is possible that by doing this you will shake off your drowsiness. Anguttara Nikaya VII.58 --- Thus will I do even as a master should: Let whatever is obtained be enough for me, that taming indeed I'll impose on you mind as an energetic man makes soft a cat-skin bag. Thus will I do even as a master should; Let whatever is obtained be enough for me, by energy I'll bring you mind under my control as a skilled trainer even the elephant in rut. Theragatha SIX 48-49 --- The Bodhisatta was once as the Brahmin Mahajanaka aboard a ship sinking far from shore. All the crew were in great panic. The Bodhisatta though ate his belly full of sugar & ghee, oiled his clothes and swam continuously for 7 days towards the shore until he was rescued by an ocean guarding female deva. Later he remembered: "Even far out at sea, where many men were lost, yet still unruffled by worry was my mind. This was my perfection of Enthusiasm." Mahajanaka-Jataka no. 539 --- Enthusiasm (Viriya) is the fifth perfection (parami) Come On Now ! This One is the fifth one to adopt, practice, develop, refine, & perfect resolutely: With the effort of courage, enthusiasm & energy strive perfectly then the absolute of Wisdom is an approaching thing. As a lion, whether lying, standing or walking, is always alert, awake & aware & never ever sluggish. Jataka Nidana (introduction) -oo0oo- Thank you, for free forward : - ] Friendship is the GREATEST !! & the whole Motivation behind the entire Noble Life ... -- A saying of the Buddha from http://metta.lk/ The sun shines by day; the moon is radiant by night. Armoured shines the warrior king. Meditating the Brahmana shines. But all day and night the Buddha shines in glory. Random Dhammapada Verse 387 22858 From: monomuni Date: Sat Jun 14, 2003 2:28am Subject: What is good Tolerance ? ( = Khanti) Friends: TOLERANCE Internal Tolerance of states within self is patience & endurance. External Tolerance of others is forbearance & forgiveness. --- Friends, even if bandits were to cut you up, savagely, limb by limb, with a two-handled saw, you should not get angry but do my bidding: Remain pervading others with a friendly awareness imbued with an all-embracing good will, kind, rich, expansive, &, immeasurable. Free from hostility, free from ill will. Always remembering this very Simile of the Saw is indeed how you should train yourselves. Majjhima Nikaya 21 --- Not from speaking much is one called clever. The patient one, free from anger, free from fear, only such one is called clever. Dhammapada 258 --- Bhikkhus, there are these five ways of removing annoyance, by which any irritation can be entirely removed by a bhikkhu when it arises in him. What are the five? Friendliness can be maintained towards an irritating person or state. Understanding can be maintained towards an irritating person or state. On-looking equanimity can be maintained towards an irritating person or state. The forgetting and ignoring of an irritating person or state can be practiced. Ownership of Kamma in an irritating person can be reflected upon thus: This good person is owner of his actions, inherit the result his actions, is born of his actions &, only he is responsible for his actions be they good or bad. This too is how annoyance with him can be instantly removed. These are the five ways of removing annoyance, by which irritation can be entirely removed in a friend when it arises in him. Anguttara Nikaya V 161 --- Yo attanam rakkhati, so param rakkhati: He who protects himself protects others. Param rakkhanto attanam rakkhati: When you protect others, you protect yourself. --- Rahula, develop a mind like earth, then contacts of arisen like and dislike do not obsess your mind. Rahula, on the earth is dumped both pure and impure, excreta, urine, saliva, pus, blood, but the earth does not disgust any of those. Even & exactly so refine the mind like earth. Rahula, develop a mind like water, then contacts of arisen pleasure and pain do not seize your mind. Rahula with water both the pure and the impure are cleaned. Washed away with water are excreta, urine, saliva, pus, and blood, yet the water does not despise any of that. Even so make the mind like water. Rahula, develop a mind like fire, then contacts of arisen attraction & aversion do not consume nor hang on your mind. Rahula, fire burns both the pure and the impure, burns excreta, urine, saliva, pus, and blood yet fire does not loathe any of that. In the same manner develop a mind like fire. Rahula, develop a mind similar to space, Then contacts of arisen delight and frustration do not take hold of nor remain in your mind. Rahula, space does not settle anywhere. Similarly make the mind unsettled & unestablished like open space. When you develop a mind like space, arisen contacts of delight and frustration do not dominate your mind. Majjhima Nikaya 62 --- Tolerance is the highest training. Nibbana is the supreme state. So say all Buddhas. The violent one is not a Recluse. The harmful one is not a Bhikkhu. Dhammapada 184 --- It doesn't matter whether he thinks: He's forbearing out of fear of me! One's own true good is the foremost good! For the purpose of protecting that nothing better than patience is found! Whoever, when strong, is forbearing to one who is weak: that indeed is the supreme patience. The weak must constantly endure they say. They call that strength! No strength at all as it is enforced & not by free will: whoever's such strength is the strength of a fool in danger! There's no revenge for one who is strongly guarding & guarded by Dhamma. You make things worse when you flare up at someone who is angry. Whoever doesn't flare up at someone who is angry wins a battle hard to win! You do both your own & the other's best when, seeing the other is provoked, you mindfully & firmly grow quiet & calm. When you thus cure both yourself & the other, those who think you are a fool, know nothing of the Truth of Dhamma. Difficult yet Possible. Well Spoken by Sakka! King of the gods in open debate. Samyutta Nikaya XI.5 --- Those absorbed in such accusations as: He/She/They abused, hurt, did me & us wrong! whether right or wrong, such foolish ones only prolong own pain by being obsessed by own anger. However !!! Those freed of these endless accusations: He/She/They abused, hurt, did me or us wrong! noting: whether right or wrong - so what !!! such clever ones end own pain by relinquishing all anger. Dhammapada 3+4 --- One should follow those who are determined, tolerant, enduring, intelligent, wise, diligent, clever, good-willed and Noble. One shall stick to them as the moon to it's regular orbit. Dhammapada 208 --- The innocent one, who has done nothing wrong, who patiently endures abuse, flogging & even imprisonment, such one armed with endurance, the great force of tolerance, such one I call a Holy One. Dhammapada 399 --- Listen, good sirs, to a word from me. Our Awakened One taught Tolerance of All! It is not suitable there should be any combat here. Let us unite in concord, on friendly terms, and make shares of his relics. Digha Nikaya 16 --- Even though they cut me up with sharp swords until I fell unconscious I was not angry with the king. This was my perfection of patience! Khantivada-Jataka no. 313 --- Tolerance (Khanti) is the sixth perfection (parami) Come On Now ! This One is the sixth one to adopt, practice, develop, refine & perfect resolutely: With an even mood accept both scorn & praise as the great mother earth who endures all thrown on her, both foul & pure neither approving nor rejecting any, then a Buddha's wisdom shall be yours! Jataka Nidana (introduction) -oo0oo- Dont run HOT Remain COOL! Thank you, for free forward : - ] -- A saying of the Buddha from http://metta.lk/ He whose knowledge is deep, who is wise, who is skilled in the right and wrong way, who has reached the highest goal, - him I call a Brahmana. Random Dhammapada Verse 403 22859 From: monomuni Date: Sat Jun 14, 2003 2:42am Subject: What is good Honesty ? ( = Sacca) Friends: The HONESTY of TRUTHFULNESS Honesty is the Insurance Honesty is the Assurance Honesty is the Agreement Honesty is the Promise Honesty is the Protection Honesty is the Guarantee Honesty is the Shelter Honesty is the Shield Honesty is the Security Honesty is the Consistence Honesty is the Confidence Honesty is the Conviction Honesty is the Certainty Honesty is the Trust Honesty is a Must. --- Like The Buddha demand of your mind: You have to give an honest answer, understand? I won't accept anything phony. And once you've answered, you have to stick to that very answer & not drifting around. Don't be a traitor to yourself… Ajaan Lee Be sober & straight… --- If a person has some conviction & says: 'This is my conviction, this is my opinion, this is my judgment, this is my view, this is my tradition, this is my culture!' he speaks the truth. But he does not yet come to the definite conclusion that 'Only this is true; anything else is false.' To this extent, Bharadvaja, is there safeguarding of the truth. To this extent one maintains the truth. I describe this as the protection of the truth. But it is not yet an awakening to the truth. When, on observing that the bhikkhu is purged of mental states rooted in greed anger & ignorance he places conviction in him. With the arising of conviction, he visits him & a friendship grows up. Growing close to him, he lends ear. Lending ear, he hears the Dhamma. Hearing the Dhamma, he remembers it. Remembering it, he reflects over it & penetrates thereby the deep meaning. Penetrating the meaning, he comes to an agreement & acceptance. Agreeing & accepting the Dhamma through reflection, clever motivation arises. With the arising of motivation, he becomes willing. Willingly, he evaluates. Evaluating, he makes an effort. So exerting himself, he both realizes the ultimate meaning of the truth with his body and comprehends it with genuine insight. To this extent, Bharadvaja, is there awakening to the truth. MN 95 --- If one is not true to the Buddha's teachings, the Buddha's teachings will not be true to one. That Dhamma which is only a costume, uniform or alibi does not bear fruit as the intention is not true. Honesty, however, makes you worthy of respect. --- The straight person, controlled, keeping precepts, open & honest, is both worthy & fit for the yellow robe. The hiding person, uncontrolled, immoral, keeping secrets not honest, is neither worthy nor fit for the yellow robe. Dhammapada 9+10 --- If one is honest towards oneself, one is also honest towards others. If one however deceives oneself, one automatically also deceives others. Honesty, however, makes you worthy of respect. --- Mental purity cannot be achieved by mere bathing, since most simple folk wash daily in the very same water. In whom there is imbedded the Truth of Dhamma, such one do I call Pure & Divine. Udana I–9 --- The one who destroys life; The one who speaks false; The one who takes what is not given; The one who mates with another's partner; The one who is addicted to drinking spirits; Such one - even in this world - digs up his own root !!! Dhammapada 246-47 --- Here some person abstains from killing living beings, abstains from taking what is not given, abstains from misconduct in sexual desires, abstains from false speech, from malicious speech, abstains from harsh speech, from gossip, he is not covetous, is not ill willed, and has right view. On the dissolution of the body, after death, he reappears in a happy destination, in the heavenly world. Here some person kills living beings, takes what is not given, misconducts himself in sexual desires, speaks falsehood, speaks maliciously, speaks harshly, gossips, is covetous, is ill willed, and has wrong view. On the dissolution of the body, after death, he reappears in the states of deprivation, in an unhappy destination, in perdition, in hell. Majjhima Nikaya 136 Maha-Kammavibhanga Sutta The Great Exposition of Kamma --- They who falsely declare, "That happened" about what did not happen or "I did not that" about what they actually did, earn themselves a ticket to Hell. Dhammapada 306 --- So have I heard: When the Blessed One heard about the king’s spies, who for money stole information from others, he exclaimed: One should not take just any job. One should not be another’s man. One should not live dependent upon another. One should not sell the truth for money… Udana VI - 2 --- The Bodhisatta was once caught by a man-eater, which sat him free on the condition that he returned the next day. He kept his word & did so & much later remembered: Protecting the way of truth, having given up my life & kingdom, I thereby set free 100 captured nobles as the man-eater lost his nerve. In honesty I had thereby reached ultimate perfection. Mahasutasoma-Jataka no. 537 --- I undertake the training rule of refraining from false speech. Honesty (Sacca) is the seventh perfection (parami) Come On Now ! This One is the seventh one to adopt, practice, develop, refine, & perfect resolutely: Just as the stars & planets remain fixed in their orbit, keeping the same steady course at all times & years, exactly so never swerve or waver from the path of Truth, then a Buddha's wisdom shall be yours! Jataka Nidana (introduction) -oo0oo- For free forward : - ] Sincere regards, : - ] -- A saying of the Buddha from http://metta.lk/ Well awakened the disciples of Gotama ever arise - they who by day and night always delight in harmlessness. Random Dhammapada Verse 300 22860 From: monomuni Date: Sat Jun 14, 2003 2:53am Subject: What is good Determination ? (= Adhitthana) Friends: DETERMINATION Determination is the Decision. Determination is the Resolve. Determination is the Choice. Determination is the Willpower. Determination is the Motivation. Determination is the Seriousness. Determination is the Sincerity. Determination is the fixed firmness Determination is the locking on target. Determination is the start of the end. --- The four determinations: One should not be negligent of understanding, should guard the truth, be devoted to withdrawal, and train only for tranquility. Majjhima Nikaya 140 --- And what is right Motivation? Being motivated by withdrawal, Being motivated by good-will, Being motivated by harmlessness: This is called right Motivation. Samyutta Nikaya XLV 8 --- And how is right view the forerunner of right Motivation? One understands wrong motivation as wrong motivation, and understands right motivation as right motivation. And what is wrong motivation? Being motivated by sensuality, by ill will, by harmfulness. This is wrong motivation... One tries to leave wrong motivation & to enter into right motivation: This is right effort. One is mindful to leave wrong motivation & to enter & remain in right motivation: This is one's right mindfulness. Thus these three qualities -- right view, right effort, & right mindfulness -- run & circle around right motivation. Majjhima Nikaya 117 --- My mind is firm like a rock, unattached to sensual things, no shaking in the midst of a world where all is shaking. My mind has thus been well developed, so how can suffering come to me? Theragatha 194 --- Whose mind is like a rock, unwavering, immovable, without a trace of lust, of urging towards the attractions, without a trace of aversion, of pushing away the repulsive, from what can such a refined mind ever suffer ?! Udana IV - 4 --- Then the Future Buddha turned his back to the trunk of the Bodhi tree faced East & Right there he then made this mighty decision: "Let blood & flesh of this body dry up & let skin & sinews fall from the bones. I will not leave this seat before having attained the absolute supreme Wisdom!" So determined did he seat himself in this unconquerable seat, which not even a 100 strikes of lightning could make him waver from. Jataka Nidana --- Using the tools of Faith, moral, effort, determination, meditation and true understanding of this Dhamma, one gradually perfect first knowledge then behavior. So equipped & aware one may eliminate all of this great suffering once and for all ... Dhammapada 144 --- A female lay follower (Upasika) at the time of the Buddha kept the precepts, comprehended the nature of impermanence, the consequent fragility of the body and won thereby stream-entry (Sotapanna). After passing away she re-arised as the favorite attendant of Sakka, the king of Gods. Reviewing her own merit she remembered her prior admonition to herself: ‘Let this body break up as it may, herein will not be any excuse or relaxation of the effort … ’ --- Determination (Adhitthana) is the eighth perfection (parami) Come On Now ! This One is the eighth one to adopt, practice, develop, refine, & perfect resolutely: Be determined as the mountain, which never can be moved by neither storm nor rain, then a Buddha's wisdom shall be yours! Jataka Nidana (introduction) -oo0oo- Thank you too, for free forward : - ] -- A saying of the Buddha from http://metta.lk/ The man of little learning grows old like the ox. His muscles grow; his wisdom grows not. Random Dhammapada Verse 152 22861 From: yasalalaka Date: Sat Jun 14, 2003 2:24am Subject: Re: meditation vs. just thinking about it --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christhedis" wrote: > Hello all, > > I posted a few messages to this group 2 months ago under the > subject 'equanimity'. > > I have been thinking about the importance of meditation. It is said that > to really understand and learn the teachings of Buddhism, it is necessary > to practise the teachings (ie. meditate), and that mere book reading is > insufficient for understanding. I do appreciate this, however what are > anyone's opinoins about the extent to which I can understand the > teachings through mere "everyday contemplation" (not meditation)? For > example, I think I recognize my grasping, clinging tendencies much > more clearly now after studying some of the teachings. So I would say > that in "practise", everyday life, I see these teachings being very helpful > in understanding my experiences. > > Thus, is it possible to deeply understand the teachings through > mere "everyday contemplation", and if not, why not? Is meditation > necessary because it slows the mind and allows for the clearest type of > insight? > > Any and all comments or opinoins would be greatly appreciated. > > Thank you, > > Chris ____________________________Yasa_______________________ KenH, I really replied to Chris, who had posed "Meditation vs Just thinking about it",to make her understand, that there IS a difference between" meditation" and" thinking". Apart from the literary correctness of my post, there is a more important fact about thinking and meditation, that is good to be understood . Dear KenH, I certainly prefer my "mis-understood" Buddhism.... The Buddha is called the 'Behsajja'- a doctor,who has found a cure for those beings suffering in the Samsara. That way the Buddha's teaching is a prescription. We cannot ask questions" like who is sitting" " is there a self who can meditate", "what does a yogi do sitting crossed legged", because we are not enlightened beings to speak of us as "no-selves". "We" are there whether we like it or not and we are trying to use the Buddha's "prescription" to really know whether the "self "exists or not. That cannot be undrstood through intellectual dissertations. with metta, Yasa 22862 From: yasalalaka Date: Sat Jun 14, 2003 6:23am Subject: [dsg] Re: importance of Meditation Dear Sarah, You say:: I don't think anyone has said `meditation is not part of the Budha's teaching' as you suggest later. I think, furthermore, we all agree that bhavana (meditation) lies at the heart of the Tipitaka. Several of us have written posts about the meaning of bhavana as we understand it, as referring to the development of samatha and vipassana. Meditation, as Nyantiloka says in the dictionary definition, is a rather vague term. Perhaps `mental development' is more appropriate? Meditation often gives an idea of a particular set of actions rather than a particular set of mind-states. ______________________________________________________________________ Yasa: This is not exactly what Ven Nyanatiloka says about Bhavana in his Dictionary. What is said is " Bhavana:' mental development' (lit. `calling into existence, producing) is what in ENGLISH is generally but rather vaguely called "meditation". Further down he says: "Tranquillity (samatha) is the concentrated, unshaken, peaceful and therefore undefiled state of mind, while insight(vipassana)is the intuitive insight into the impermanency, misery and impersonality (anicca; dukkha,anatta;s.tilakkhana) of all bodily and mental phenomena of existence included in the five groups of existence…….etc. I leave it without comment. ____________________________________________________________________ Sarah: Several of us have explained how and why we see the Abhidhamma as an integral part of the Tipitaka. I think some earlier posts, including these ones, show how the core of the Abhidhamma was recited at the FirstCouncil: 12658, 19780 ________________________________yasa__________________________________ Yasa: I neither deny that Abhidhamma is an integral part of Tripitaka, nor that it is the word of the Buddha (despite the controversy). But I disagree that Abhidhamma or any part of it ,as such, was read at the first council. The Sutta Pitaka contains Abhidhamma terminology, specially his Second Sermon to the five ascetics, but often simplified(22205-observations of htootintnaing) not to create confusion in the minds of the Bikkhus (modern examples of confusion:Computer as rising and falling away, computer and concepts). It was only seven years after his enlightenment the Buddha delivered the discourse on Abhidhamma to the Devas. He did not want his disciples to follow the Abhidhamma . Only disciple to be instructed in Abhidhamma was Venerable Sariputta. ______________________________________________________________________ Sarah: Without any dispute, I think, we know that the Abhidhamma and commentaries were preserved and recited in Sri Lanka (your country) and we read accounts in the Mahavamsa and Culavamsa about the incredible respect held by not only the Mahavira monks, but also by kings and lay-folk for all parts of the teaching. We read about the incredible number of arahants in the old days and how the bhikkhus would sooner die in famines than show any disrespect. Kings would set the Abhidhamma texts in gold and of course Buddhaghosa wrote most his commentaries here (including the Abhidhamma commentaries) which were immediately highly revered and expounded. If this same respect is not apparent today in some Buddhist countries, we know that it is merely indicative of the deline of the teaching. Yasa: The respect for the Abhidhamma is a different thing, from whether it was taught for his disciples to practice "depending" on it. The Venerable Buddhaghosa did not write the commentaries, he only translated the Commentaries and collected most of them dealing with Meditation into a Volume. He was exceptionally, intelligent ( may have been a disciple of Venerable Sariputta in his previous life)and naturally he had used the Abhidhamma in the composition of the Visuddhimagga. Visuddhimagga is more often utilised as a reference book in Meditation. __________________________________________________________ Sarah: Many people believe they can just read one sutta, such as the Satipatthana Sutta, and that this is sufficient for `meditation'. However, even in the Buddha's times, bhikkhus and lay-folk would approach key disciples such as Sariputta or Mahakaccana for further elaboration and detail. The commentaries are elaborations by key disciples and we can see from the one which is being posted now on the Satipatthana Sutta, that it is packed with abhidhamma detail. For most of us, to really appreciate this detail,it is essential to consider and reflect and study the Abhidhamma to some extent as we're doing here. Yasa: Budhha at the Sampasa Forest, taking a handful of leaves from all the fallen leaves in the forest said , this is about all, that I have taught you though what I know is as much as all the leaves in the forest, and this much is enough for your practice to find the path to attain Nibbana. That did not include Abhidhamma, because that was a discourse that was not made to the disciples, who was (atleast) around him in the Sampasa Forest. And not an "essential" dhamma for meditation. There is certainly no harm in reading Abhidhamma as you do here, it is GREAT to learn the sublime dhamma in what ever way possible,and use it as a form of meditation,each one has the right to use the Dhamma in whatever way he wants, but we should be able to separate the essential from the inessential, without being disrespectful to one or the other aspect of the Dhamma . ________________________________________________________________ Sarah: The Buddha's disciples went to extraordinary lengths to recite the entire collection of his teachings and to preserve them in writing, spending months at a time in some of the caves you mention for our benefit. 30 years ago when living in a kuti (as you describe) in Sri Lanka, I thought the Maha Satipatthana Sutta was pretty simple to understand and follow. Now I see it as extraordinarily complex and I find I need to read and consider widely and develop a lot more understanding in order to really appreciate its depth and detail. If it were a simple matter of taking a few phrases from one or two suttas and going to a cave to `meditate' and become enlightened, why would the disciples have gone to such extraordinary lengths to preserve the entire collections of teachings? Yasa: In the Kuti, the Bikkhus meditated: in memorising the Dhamma following the Oral traditions, the Bikkhus recited the dhamma in different groups, one group checking the other to avoid errors in recitation, that was done outside the kuti. The Buddha used the common people's language at the time he was living, to make his discourses, so that the people may easily understand what he said. But that language is now more than 2500 years old and not spoken any more. That is the difficulty we have understanding it. But to make it a living Dhamma, the commentaries were regularly made, as well as, commentaries on commentaries (tika), explaining different terms, to be understood in different periods. In the early days the commentaries were written by Arahats, after that by very learned Senior monks. The Buddha was not "verbose" some times he told a whole dhamma in a few words and then the other Bhikkus had to go to a "specialist"( Ven.M.K.) to get a clarification. It is very strange for one who has meditated to have a very restricted idea of Meditation. You do not take "a few phrases from one or two sutta and go to a cave to `meditate' to get enlightened" Sarah. That is a false interpretation of "meditation". Do you know, that in Thailand there is a tradition of Forest monks ? They were never taught the dhamma, they were merely given meditation instructions and sent off to the forests to meditate on their own or with another. They eventually become masters of this sublime teaching, the knowledge of which they acquire through meditative wisdom. Venerable Ajahn Munn is well known monk of this tradition. (to be continued) With metta, Yasa 22863 From: Date: Sat Jun 14, 2003 3:35am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: importance of Meditation Hi, Yasa - In a message dated 6/14/03 9:50:05 AM Eastern Daylight Time, charlesperera@h... writes: > Do you know, that in Thailand there is a tradition of Forest > monks ? They were never taught the dhamma, they were merely given > meditation instructions and sent off to the forests to meditate on > their own or with another. They eventually become masters of this > sublime teaching, the knowledge of which they acquire through > meditative wisdom. Venerable Ajahn Munn is well known monk of this > tradition. (to be continued) > ========================== There is much in your post that I agree with, but what I have quoted of it above I think is quite an overstatement. Certainly Ajahn Chah and Bhikkhu Buddhadasa, for example, were taught the Dhamma and studied it extensively on their own. This is obvious from their teachings. Certainly the forest monks learn more than meditation instructions. Surely they are instructed in sila, in guarding the senses, in ongoing mindfulness (while not engaged in formal sitting and walking meditation), in the patimokkha, in the hindrances, in the three poisons, in what are wrong views, etc? With metta, Howard With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 22864 From: Jim Anderson Date: Sat Jun 14, 2003 2:44pm Subject: Re: Dating of texts, to Jim. advice needed. Dear Nina, This is an interesting but perplexing question and before I try to answer I must tell you that I'm no expert in these matters either. To answer your question: yes, (I think) there can be other reasons for a difference in style. I can think of one in particular going right back to the Buddha himself when he taught a nine-fold scheme (nava"nga) for classifying the different kinds (or styles) of teachings that include the Jatakas and Veyyaakara.na (expositions such as the Abhidhamma teachings). I think the Pa.tisambhidaamagga belongs to the Veyyaakara.na type. I find questions of the sort concerning the dating of texts to be somewhat beyond my ability to give satisfactory answers to. However, I'll share a few thoughts and ideas on this matter. I think we have to make a distinction between what a tradition says about the origins of its texts and what is said about them by those who are speaking from outside the tradition as we find in the writings of academics and even some bhikkhus. I can hardly say much about the origins of the Pa.tisambhidamagga. I think one can find in the commentaries (eg. the Vinaya cty) that this work (ascribed to Sariputta) was recited at the first council, but it might be worth checking very carefully the wording in Pali as you want to be sure that this is quite clear. When an academic like Warder says to the effect that the text came centuries later, one will have to examine very closely the arguments in favour of a later dating. I think he has something to say about the dating in his introduction to the Path of Discrimination. There is a discipline in the academic world which attempts to approach, in an objective way, old texts like an archaeologist doing a dig among the ruins of an ancient city and determining the dating of the different layers of artifacts. I think the idea is that an old text can take many centuries to evolve into its final form. This is something that I haven't bothered much with as I would much rather spend my time studying a text just as it is. I have a book entitled _Studies in the Origins of Buddhism_ by G.C. Pande which takes even individual suttas and tries to show that some parts are earlier than others. I did read some of it and honestly I just couldn't buy into it and I found the principles involved rather questionable. I also read a part of one of Mrs. Rhys Davids' books which similarly examines the Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta and goes so far as to argue that the eightfold path is a later addition inserted by monks and never spoken by the Buddha. Mrs. Rhys Davids was obviously unhappy with the eightfold path :(. Anyway, trying to date a text or parts of it can be rather speculative. I'm quite happy to accept what the tradition says about its texts and get on with studying them. Best wishes, Jim --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > Dear Jim, > It is said of some parts of the Tipitaka, such as the Patisambidhamagga, > that because of its style it is of later date. I am not an expert and cannot > judge about Pali forms and style which are more recent. Can there be other > reasons for a difference in style: the contents, or, its being written down > at a later date, although it was originally rehearsed at the first Council? > Such questions come up time and again and I would appreciate your ideas > about it, > Nina. 22865 From: yasalalaka Date: Sat Jun 14, 2003 7:17am Subject: [dsg] Re: importance of Meditation Dear Sarah : This is the continuation of the previous post: _________________________________________________________________ Sarah: I don't consider -- or wish others like yourself to consider -- that any habit or practice in daily life which is held dear or considered as an essential or integral part of how one understands bhavana, should be abandoned. That again would be setting a rule or prescription that everyone should look and behave alike. I do consider that by understanding more about the nature of paramattha dhammas, one will be less inclined to attach significance to time, occasion, place, position or activity as far as `meditation' is concerned. I quite appreciate that this is probably a minority view and most Buddhists today would support your suggestions to the contrary. Yasa: Please pardon me Sarah, if I have in any way hurt your feelings. You can ask me to shut up any time you want, and I will refrain from adding further injury. I am not writing to prove my point of view and dissuade you from what you are doing. I came to this Forum to ask some questions on Abhidhamma which I was trying to understand reading Nina's book ADL. As I have a bad habit of butting in to a discussion to push my point of view, I got involved sending out posts to different on going discussions. I was in fact hesitating to reply your post, when I saw this, at the end of your post: "You will be doing many members and lurkers a great favour if you continue to voice and discuss your views (however different from mine or others), and any particular suttas with us. I think we all greatly appreciate your contributions and your willingness to share your well- versed reflections." That is the only reason, to write this and also to say that I take no offence for what ever you have said a or would say in future. Please rest assured. I am only putting up my point of view, I may be completely wrong. _______________________________________________________________ Y: Nowhere, in the tripita, Buddha had asked his disciples to use the Abhidhamma teachings for the purpose of meditation. To use the Abhidhamma now to "be mindful of the moment" to attain Nibbana is like climbing a mountain in search of water, when there is plenty Sarah: I think the purpose of any part of the teachings is to help right understanding develop to see the non-self characteristic of conditioned realities. For some of us, there is no distinction or conflict between what is taught in the various sections of the Tipitaka - there are still the same `all' to be known. Perhaps, sometimes, it is necessary to climb the mountain to get a clearer perspective of what would have been apparent to those with more insight -- like some of the key disciples such as Sariputta -- and to understand the distinction between the mirages and the truths. Again, I wouldn't suggest that everyone needs to be familiar with the Abhidhamma texts (and I'm certainly not;-)), but I think the careful consideration and reflection of the truths can be very helpful as essential conditions for deeper and more direct understanding of these same truths. Yasa: Yes of course, I agree with you. In fact having read and re-read some of Nina's ADL. I have now additional material for "dhamma vicara". When, you realise the flow of thoughts( citta), you know that each of this thought(citta) that arises and falls away, carries with it all the " data" of a life time and that of the past life times, and a new thought that arises after the falling away of the first, has in it (again) " all the data" that was in the previous citta and any more accumulated in between. And if one dies at any time the last of the continuous flow of "citta", will be the "cuti citta" that will carry with it all the "data" that was in the previous "citta". Carrying the analysis further, one understands the life is nothing but a process of thoughts "citta". So learning any thing is not a loss of time, above all learning Abhidhamma. _____________________________________________________________________ Sarah: I'm sorry if you see any of the comments made here as being disrespectful in anyway, Yasa, or if they are a condition for any negative feelings. It's not my intention. I think there are other members here who have also felt similar reactions and will fully sympathise if you do feel like this, however. You will be doing many members and lurkers a great favour if you continue to voice and discuss your views (however different from mine or others), and any particular suttas with us. I think we all greatly appreciate your contributions and your willingness to share your well- versed reflections. Yasa: No, you have not used any strong words against me. I am "Buddhist" enough to accept praise or insult. But you are not the sort of person who would willingly say things to hurt someone, Sarah. It is a pleasure to discuss dhamma with you. I do respect your point of view, despite our mutual disagreements. With metta, Yasa PS: Just for your information: Tests carried out in the United States reveal that areas of their brain associated with good mood and positive feelings are more active. The findings come as another study suggests that Buddhist meditation can help to calm people. Researchers at University of California San Francisco Medical Centre have found the practise can tame the amygdala, an area of the brain which is the hub of fear memory. They found that experienced Buddhists, who meditate regularly, were less likely to be shocked, flustered, surprised or as angry compared to other people. 22866 From: yasalalaka Date: Sat Jun 14, 2003 8:52am Subject: [dsg] Re: importance of Meditation --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > ========================== > There is much in your post that I agree with, but what I have quoted > of it above I think is quite an overstatement. Certainly Ajahn Chah and Bhikkhu > Buddhadasa, for example, were taught the Dhamma and studied it extensively on > their own. This is obvious from their teachings. Certainly the forest monks > learn more than meditation instructions. Surely they are instructed in sila, in > guarding the senses, in ongoing mindfulness (while not engaged in formal > sitting and walking meditation), in the patimokkha, in the hindrances, in the > three poisons, in what are wrong views, etc? Hello Howard, Ven Ajahn Chah was not a forest monk. Venerable Ajahn Tate,Ven. Ajahn Mun Bhuridatta, Ven. Ajahn Sao are some of the Forest monks. I don't know whether the tradition still exists. There is a book , The Auto Biography of a Forest Monk, by Venerable Ajahn Tate. He himself did not have much of an education. The dhamma is most often taught by a village monk. Those who go to forest are given perhaps an elementary knowledge of the rules. If I can get hold of more information I will post it here. with metta, Yasa > > 22867 From: yasalalaka Date: Sat Jun 14, 2003 9:36am Subject: [dsg] Re: importance of Meditation In a post I just made I had said that Ajahn Chah was not a forest monk, but infact he was. Please see the extract below: "He practiced meditation under a number of masters, among whom was Ajaan Mun, a highly respected and accomplished meditation teacher of the time. Ajaan Mun had an indelible influence on Ajaan Chah, giving his meditation the direction and clarity that it lacked. Ajaan Chah later became an accomplished meditation teacher in his own right, sharing his realization of the Dhamma with those who sought it. The essence of the teaching was rather simple: be mindful, don't hang on to anything, let go and surrender to the way things are." with metta, Yasa 22868 From: yasalalaka Date: Sat Jun 14, 2003 9:10am Subject: [dsg] Re: importance of Meditation --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > ========================== > There is much in your post that I agree with, but what I have quoted > of it above I think is quite an overstatement. Certainly Ajahn Chah and Bhikkhu > Buddhadasa, for example, were taught the Dhamma and studied it extensively on > their own. This is obvious from their teachings. Certainly the forest monks > learn more than meditation instructions. ________________________________________________________________ Howard, Here is an extract about forest monks: "Ajaan Sao was unusual in the Dhammayut order in that he had no scholarly interests but was devoted to the practice of meditation. He trained Ajaan Mun in strict discipline and canonical meditation practices, set in the context of the dangers and solitude of the wilderness. He could not guarantee that this practice would lead to the noble attainments, but he believed that it headed in the right direction. After wandering for several years with Ajaan Sao, Ajaan Mun set off on his own in search of a teacher who could show him for sure the way to the noble attainments. His search took nealy two decades and involved countless hardships as he trekked through the jungles of Laos, central Thailand, and Burma, but he never found the teacher he sought. Gradually he realized that he would have to follow the Buddha's example and take the wilderness itself as his teacher, not simply to conform to the ways of nature -- for nature is samsara itself -- but to break through to truths transcending them entirely. If he wanted to find the way beyond aging, illness, and death, he would have to learn the lessons of an environment where aging, illness, and death are thrown into sharp relief. At the same time, his encounters with other monks in the forest convinced him that learning the lessons of the wilderness involved more than just mastering the skills of physical survival. He would also have to develop the acuity not to be misled by dead-end sidetracks in his meditation. So, with a strong sense of the immensity of his task, he returned to a mountainous region in central Thailand and settled alone in a cave. " with metta, yasa 22869 From: Andrew Date: Sat Jun 14, 2003 6:07pm Subject: Re: To like or not to like --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" wrote: > does anyone have any thoughts > or sutta references on how we are to train ourselves with regard to > others, and whether it is preferable to love all universally or no- > one particularly at all? Hi Christine You certainly have interesting tea breaks at your work! I often find that sessions on "how to train myself" become "who am I?" sessions in which I try to define myself as, for example, someone who is/isn't loving. The time frame is not the present moment as I think back over many past moments in my life and try to find a commonality. This, of course, is very hazardous because it smacks of conceptualising a permanent self. I then go on to wanting to "steer" that self in an ordained direction. The end result is a rejection of anatta. Presently, I find the truly liberating aspect of the Dhamma is a realization that such things don't really matter. It doesn't matter if I am prince or pauper, hero or villain, Romeo or Juliet, loving or not loving. Whatever arises can be a condition for the arising of wisdom in the present moment. Now, I know you know all this - and so do I. It's as slippery as an eel, so no wonder we need constant reminders! Metta Andrew 22870 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sat Jun 14, 2003 7:22pm Subject: Books - was Re: [dsg] importance of Meditation Hi Dave, and all, I was in your position a couple of years ago - wanting to get as close as possible to the source of the Teachings. I found that the quality of translations varied widely. Often translators were concentrating on their areas of interest and I wondered if unconscious bias crept in. I think Connie once drew attention to the Italian quip "traduttore, traditore" - "all translators betray the text they translate". Only a comparatively few of the Buddha's suttas were available on Access to Insight and it is likely to remain that way for quite some time. As the owner of ATI John Bullitt says in answer to: "Why don't you have translations of ALL the suttas from the Pali Canon? This website aims to be selective rather than comprehensive. My goal has never been to publish translations of every single one of the Tipitaka's 10,000-plus suttas. What you see here is a selection of suttas that meet three criteria: (1) they are, in my opinion, good translations; (2) I have personally found them useful; and (3) their copyright holders have provided them for free distribution". With only a few hundreds of suttas out of ten thousand plus, available on-line in English, it caused a certain amount of frustration to arise as I searched for translations as close as possible to what the Buddha was reputed to have said. Eventually I found that I could trust the translations and expositions of the pali scholar Bhikkhu Bodhi, in that they were accurate, but also because they written in an elegant and graceful manner that did not sacrifice either exactness or style. His depth of understanding of the Dhamma makes the truths in his articles something to depend on as well. His translations of the Samyutta Nikaya and his editing of the Majjhima Nikaya (trans. by Bhikkhu Nanamoli) are available in a Wisdom edition from Amazon.com in either U.K. or U.S.A. (I often find they have different Buddhist books from their American office) http://www.amazon.com/uk http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/subst/home/home.html/103-8374539- 7167852 (long address) Bhikkhu Bodhi's translations of The Mulapariyaya Sutta and its commentaries; The Discourse on the Fruits of Recluseship - The Samannaphala Sutta and its Commentaries; The Great Discourse on Causation - The Mahanidana Sutta and its Commentaries; and The Discourse on The All-Embracing Net of Views - The Brahmajala Sutta and its Commentaries, are four translations that, IMO, are essential reading for those wanting to understand what the Buddha actually taught. You might enjoy browsing The Buddhist Publication Society Site - This is the link to the BPS Catalogue: http://www.beyondthenet.net/bps/bps_main.htm As well, some of Bhikkhu Bodhi's articles are under Dhamma (top of page). metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "dwlemen" > <<<<>>>> > DAVE: > > One quick last question for you... Can you recommend a place to view > or a book to buy that would be a good, English translation fo the > original Pali texts? Perhaps I'd be in a better position to > understand what the Buddha said in regards to Meditation if I could > read them myself (I know reading in Pali would be better but... baby > steps!) > > Thanks, as always, for your taking all this time to go on with me > about all this. I do appreciate it. > > > Peace, > > > Dave 22871 From: Date: Sat Jun 14, 2003 4:28pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: importance of Meditation Hi, Yasa - I stand corrected. I did think that Ajahn Chah and Bhikkhu Buddhadasa were forest monks. With metta, Howard In a message dated 6/14/03 6:55:15 PM Eastern Daylight Time, charlesperera@h... writes: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > > >========================== > > There is much in your post that I agree with, but what I > have quoted > >of it above I think is quite an overstatement. Certainly Ajahn Chah > and Bhikkhu > >Buddhadasa, for example, were taught the Dhamma and studied it > extensively on > >their own. This is obvious from their teachings. Certainly the > forest monks > >learn more than meditation instructions. Surely they are instructed > in sila, in > >guarding the senses, in ongoing mindfulness (while not engaged in > formal > >sitting and walking meditation), in the patimokkha, in the > hindrances, in the > >three poisons, in what are wrong views, etc? > > > Hello Howard, > > Ven Ajahn Chah was not a forest monk. Venerable Ajahn Tate,Ven. Ajahn > Mun Bhuridatta, Ven. Ajahn Sao are some of the Forest monks. I don't > know whether the tradition still exists. There is a book , The Auto > Biography of a Forest Monk, by Venerable Ajahn Tate. He himself did > not have much of an education. > > The dhamma is most often taught by a village monk. Those who go to > forest are given perhaps an elementary knowledge of the rules. If I > can get hold of more information I will post it here. > > with metta, > Yasa /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 22872 From: Date: Sat Jun 14, 2003 4:29pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: importance of Meditation Ahh. okay, then. ;-) With metta, Howard In a message dated 6/14/03 6:56:23 PM Eastern Daylight Time, charlesperera@h... writes: > > In a post I just made I had said that Ajahn Chah was not a forest > monk, but infact he was. > Please see the extract below: > "He practiced meditation under a number of masters, among whom was > Ajaan Mun, a highly respected and accomplished meditation teacher of > the time. Ajaan Mun had an indelible influence on Ajaan Chah, giving > his meditation the direction and clarity that it lacked. Ajaan Chah > later became an accomplished meditation teacher in his own right, > sharing his realization of the Dhamma with those who sought it. The > essence of the teaching was rather simple: be mindful, don't hang on > to anything, let go and surrender to the way things are." > > with metta, > Yasa > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 22873 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sat Jun 14, 2003 9:27pm Subject: Re: To like or not to like Hi Andrew, and All, Yes, we do have interesting tea-breaks! - many of the people around the table are actually practising their different religions. I was used to the term 'practice' from Buddhism, but the Muslim, Hindu and Christian colleagues also describe their co-religionists as someone who 'practices' or who does not. We often wonder, if WE can get on with each other with happy friendliness and interest in each others religion, why there has to be such hate in the world. We give support to each other as well, and we listen to each other - any celebration with food now meets a few key critieria, and an office is made available to one of our members who prays a few more times a day than the others, with no comments made. Last week our Muslim friend taught us how to tie and wear the hijab (the Islamic headscarf) - there was lots of laughter and a photo or two, and we all decided to wear the hijab later in the year on a Solidarity Day for Muslim Women (who are subjected worldwide to discrimination and abuse for wearing the scarf). I understand what you are saying about the danger of conceptualising a self - but isn't there an equal danger about attachment to a non- self idea? I'm not much good at staying in the present moment - mostly the past or the future - I wonder how one develops that skill a little more. metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Andrew" wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" > wrote: > > does anyone have any thoughts > > or sutta references on how we are to train ourselves with regard to > > others, and whether it is preferable to love all universally or no- > > one particularly at all? > > Hi Christine > You certainly have interesting tea breaks at your work! I often find > that sessions on "how to train myself" become "who am I?" sessions in > which I try to define myself as, for example, someone who is/isn't > loving. The time frame is not the present moment as I think back over > many past moments in my life and try to find a commonality. This, of > course, is very hazardous because it smacks of conceptualising a > permanent self. I then go on to wanting to "steer" that self in an > ordained direction. The end result is a rejection of anatta. > > Presently, I find the truly liberating aspect of the Dhamma is a > realization that such things don't really matter. It doesn't matter > if I am prince or pauper, hero or villain, Romeo or Juliet, loving or > not loving. Whatever arises can be a condition for the arising of > wisdom in the present moment. > > Now, I know you know all this - and so do I. It's as slippery as an > eel, so no wonder we need constant reminders! Metta > Andrew 22874 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sat Jun 14, 2003 9:47pm Subject: [dsg] Re: importance of Meditation Dear Group, I have been reading Yasas' and Sarahs' posts with interest. Even without adamantly supporting one view or the other about the place of formal meditation - where is the harm in it, even if it is not seen as essential to liberation? Does formal meditation have any detrimental effects? If there is the same individual 'stream' of cittas, and if the kammic history goes along with it, (and therefore the accumulations of being, or not being, greedy, hateful or deluded,as well) ... then isn't the individual stream (even though constantly changing, arising and falling away) always that individual stream until cessation? So ... wouldn't the practice of meditation strengthen the accumulations of serenity and other kusala factors as opposed to the usual agitated state of the mind? Surely a calm and pleasant abiding can't be a bad thing? metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- 22875 From: monomuni Date: Sat Jun 14, 2003 3:18am Subject: What is good friendship ? ( = Metta) Friends: Friendliness means Goodwill Friendliness means Kindness Friendliness means Helpfulness Friendliness means Assistance Friendliness means Support Friendliness means Benevolence Friendliness means Concern Friendliness means Care Friendliness means Compassion Friendliness means Cooperation Friendliness means Mutual Aid Friendliness means Mutual Advantage Friendliness means Symbiosis Friendliness means Sympathy Friendliness means Basic Trust --- A friend who always lends a hand, a friend both in sorrow and joy, a friend who offers good counsel, a friend who sympathizes too. These are the four kinds of true friends: one who is wise, having understood, will always cherish and serve such friends just as a mother tends her only child. D. III, 188 --- As a mother even with her life protects her only child, so let one cultivate immeasurable loving-kindness towards all living beings. --- Fuel on fire ? Not by anger is Hate ever quenched. Only by Kindness is Hate always quenched. This Ancient Law is an Eternal ... Truth ... ! Dhammapada 5 --- Follow only the Good Ones, Associate only with the Clever Ones, To learn the Truth from these Nobles gives an advantage like nothing else. Samyutta Nikaya I, 17 --- To follow the fools & thereby copy & choose the bad ways, to know no Good Friends, is causing only Misery. Sutta Nipata 94 --- True friends are rare to come by these days; a show of friendship very often hides some private ends. Man's mind is defiled by self-interest. So, becoming realistic, without illusions, one should wander alone like the rhinoceros. Sutta Nipata: Khaggavisana Sutta --- So too, bhikkhus, there are these five modes of speech that others may use when they address you. Their speech may be timely or untimely, true or untrue, gentle or harsh, beneficial or for harmful, based & born from private thoughts of loving-kindness or by bitter hate. Now this is how you should train yourselves here: "Our minds will remain unaffected, we shall utter no bad words, we shall abide friendly and understanding, with thoughts of kindness, friendliness and no inner hate. We shall abide with friendliness in our minds beaming towards that very person, and we shall dwell extending it to the entire world as our endless object, with our minds overflowing, exalted, measureless & infinite in friendliness, without hostility or ill-will." That is how you should train yourselves. Even if bandits were savagely to cut you up limb by limb with a two-handled saw, he who harbored hate on that account in his mind would not be one who carried out my teaching. Bhikkhus, you should keep this instruction on the Simile of the Saw constantly in mind. Majjhima Nikaya, Sutta 21 --- As if one strings rotten fish on a straw of grass, this grass will soon smell putrid too. Exactly so with one who follows fools. As if one wraps up perfume in a common leaf this leaf will soon smell sweet too. Exactly so with one who follows the Wise. Itivuttaka. 68 --- The 4 infinite & divine states: The BrahmaViharas 'There, Oohh friends, the Bhikkhu with a mind full of friendly loving-kindness pervading first one direction, then a second one, then a third one then the fourth one, as below so above, across & all around, everywhere identifying himself with all sentient beings, he is encompassing the whole world with a mind full of friendly loving-kindness, with a mind wide, developed, unbounded, cleared, exalted, pure & bright, free from hate and ill will ... There, Oohh friends, the Bhikkhu with a mind full of understanding compassion pervading first the front, then the right side, then the back, then the left side, as below so above, across & all around, all over, far & wide; identifying himself with all sentient beings, he is perfusing the whole universe with a mind imbued with emphatic compassion, with a spacious mind, a refined mind, infinite, cleared, pure & brilliant, free from anger and enmity ... There, Oohh friends, the Bhikkhu with a mind full of altruistic & sympathetic joy pervading the North, then the East, then the South, then the West, as below so above, across & all around, universally, infinitely; identifying himself with all sentient beings, he is suffusing all galaxies with a mind full of genuine mutual & altruistic sympathetic joy, with an open mind, vast, limitless, purified, cleared, pure & shining, free from aversion and bitterness ... There, Oohh friends, the Bhikkhu with a mind full of balanced equanimity pervading first the frontal quadrant, then the right, then the rear & then the left quadrant, as below so above, across & all around; and everywhere identifying himself with all sentient beings, he is permeating the whole world with a mind satiated of balanced equanimity, calmed, with a mountain-like mind, cultivated, endless, cleared, pure & dazzling, free from any irritation & resentment ...' Comments: IMPORTANT !!! That one makes this infinite, boundless, unbounded, limitless, is actually what makes it a divine state: A true BrahmaVihara! One can make these aspects infinite in: Numbers of beings, kinds of beings, future time, space, degree etc. --- Bhikkhus, whatever kinds of worldly merit there are, all are not worth one sixteenth part of the release of mind by universal friendliness; in shining, glowing and beaming radiance the release of mind by universal friendliness far excels & surpasses them all. Itivuttaka 27 --- The 11 Advantages of cultivating Universal Friendliness The four Brahma Viharas; The four Divine States The four Supreme States; The four Boundless States ‘Friends, eleven advantages are to be expected as effect from the release of mind into friendliness by the practice of Goodwill, by cultivating amity, by making much of it frequently, by making friendliness the vehicle, the tool, the basis, by persisting on it, by being well established in it as a sublime habit. What are the eleven advantages ? One sleeps Happy ! One wakes Happy ! One dreams No Evil dreams ! One is Liked & Loved by all human beings! One is Liked & Loved by all non-human beings too! One is Guarded & Protected by the divine Devas ! One cannot be Harmed by Fire, Poison, or Weapons ! One swiftly Attains the Concentration of Absorption ! Ones appearance becomes Serene, Calm, & Composed ! One dies without Confusion, Bewilderment, or Panic ! One reappears after death on the Brahma level if one has penetrated to no higher level in this life ! When the mind is released into friendliness by the practice of Goodwill, by manifesting Friendliness, by cultivating Amity, by frequently making much of it, by making Friendliness the vehicle, the tool, the basis, the medium, the foundation, by persisting in it, by insisting on it, by properly consolidating it, by thoroughly undertaking it, by making it a familiar supreme habit, by so being well established in it, these eleven blessings can be expected…’ Anguttara Nikaya, 11:16 [V 342] --- He who does not strike nor makes others strike, who robs not nor makes others rob, sharing love with all that live, finds enmity with none. Itivuttaka 22 --- Thus he who both day and night takes delight in harmlessness sharing love with all that live, finds enmity with none. S. I, 208 --- When one with a mind of love feels compassion for the entire world -- above, below and across, unlimited everywhere. J. 37 --- I am a friend of the footless, I am a friend of the bipeds; I am a friend of those with four feet, I am a friend of the many-footed. May not the footless harm me, may not the bipeds harm me, may not those with four feet harm me, and may not those with many feet harm me. A. II, 72 --- I am a friend and helper to all, I am sympathetic to all living beings. I develop a mind full of love and takes always delight in harmlessness. I gladden my mind, fill it with joy, and make it immovable and unshakable. I develop the divine states of mind not cultivated by simple men. Theragatha. 648-9 --- And how does a bhikkhu abide with his mind imbued with friendliness extending over one direction? Just as he would feel friendliness on seeing a dearly favorite person, so he extends loving-kindness to all beings. Abhidhamma Pitaka, Appamannavibhanga --- Among tigers, lions, leopards & bears I lived on the wood. No one was frightened of me, nor did I fear anyone. Uplifted by such universal friendliness I enjoyed the forest. Finding great solace in silent solitude. Suvanna-sama Jataka 540 --- The Bodhisatta once was born as the righteous king Ekaraja. His kingdom was taken by force and he & his son was buried in a pit to the neck without king Ekaraja resisted nor bore even slight ill will against the aggressors. Later he remembered this as his ultimate perfection of friendliness. Ekaraja Jataka 303 --- Friendliness (Metta) is the ninth perfection (parami) Come On Now friends! This One is the ninth one to adopt, practice, develop, refine & perfect resolutely: As water cleans & cools both the evil & the good, refresh both the friend & foe alike with Friendly Goodwill, then a Buddha's wisdom shall be yours! Jataka Nidana (introduction) -oo0oo- for free forward Quite Cordially, ; - ] Friendship is the GREATEST !! & the whole Motivation behind the entire Noble Life ... Samanera Samahita Cypress Hut, Gangamulla Bambarella, Thawalantenna 20838. Central Province. SRI LANKA. Email: monomuni@m... WWW: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Buddha-Direct -- A saying of the Buddha from http://metta.lk/ One who has conquered all defilements, cannot be defeated. Such a one is The Buddha, who has attained unlimited power. Random Dhammapada Verse 179 22876 From: monomuni Date: Sat Jun 14, 2003 4:13am Subject: What is good Equanimity ? ( = Upekkha) Friends: EQUANIMITY: Equanimity means Unaffectable Equanimity means Unprovokable Equanimity means Undisturbable Equanimity means Unexcitable Equanimity means Imperturbable Equanimity means Disengaged Equanimity means Disentangled Equanimity means Detached Equanimity means Immovable Equanimity means Unbeatable Equanimity means Untemptable Equanimity means Wholly Immune Equanimity means Indifferent Equanimity means Impartial Equanimity means Unbiased Equanimity means Disinterested Equanimity means Balanced Even like a smiling mountain! --- The Threefold Equanimity (Upekkha): If Indifferent towards both: Internal states & external phenomena, Living beings & lifeless things, Past, present & future events, How can one be hurt, upset, disturbed or distressed ? --- Such noble friend finally develops the link to awakening that is Equanimity during awareness of in-&-out breathing, which protect against bad mental states, tends to dispassion, to extinction, & culminate in self-surrender. If, friends, awareness of in-&-out breathing, is so cultivated and made much of, it is of great fruit, of great advantage ! One whose awareness of breathing in-&-out is perfected, well developed, and gradually brought to refined growth, thus according to teaching of the Buddha, such one illuminates the world, just like the full moon freed from clouds. SN V. LIV. Anapana-samyutta --- Equanimity is Tatra-majjhattata which designates the evenly balanced 'keeping to the middle of all things'. It has as characteristic that it effects the balance of consciousness and mental properties as a single function of single taste, which prevents both overt excessiveness and any insufficiency. Equanimity thereby puts an end to biased partiality by manifesting moderation well within range of the properly reasoned midway. Visuddhimagga XIV --- Friends, these four steps in the Dhamma are ancient, authentic, classic, original, pure, & undiluted. Then, now & forever, always will they be admired by the wise. Which four ? Absence of Wanting. Absence of Anger. Right Awareness. Right Concentration. --- And how, friends, does one cultivate the mental release by evenly balanced equanimity ? What is its' aim ? What is it's fruit ? How is it excellent ? Where does it lead to and end ? In this, friends, a noble friend train and cultivates the: Awareness enlightenment-factor joined, fused & combined with equanimity, the Investigation enlightenment-factor joined & combined with equanimity, the Energy enlightenment-factor joined, fused & combined with equanimity, the Rapture enlightenment-factor joined, fused & combined with equanimity, the Tranquility enlightenment-factor joined, & combined with equanimity, the Concentration enlightenment-factor joined, & combined with equanimity, Equanimity enlightenment-factor joined, fused & combined with itself, All based on seclusion, based on dispassion, based on cessation, ending in self-surrender. If this noble friend so wish: 'Let me avoid both the pleasant and the painful as well, and instead remain in well-balanced equanimity, evenly composed, clearly aware, unperturbed and self-possessed.' this friend does so indeed silence both pleasantness and unpleasantness, and so remain utterly imperturbable, established in balanced equanimity, evenly composed, clearly aware and self-possessed. Or if such friend by passing utterly beyond by leaving all behind the realm of infinite consciousness, so continuously fixed on the idea: 'Nothing exists, nothing is there, all is a void, empty vacuity ... ', such friend indeed attains and abides in this formless realm of nothingness. Friends, I declare that the release of mind by equanimity & equipoise has the 'void empty nothingness' for its excellence. Herein appears intuitive insight for the friend, who has not yet penetrated to a still higher release... --- Although a man is richly dressed and adorned, if he is in peace, at ease, in equanimity, calmed, composed, controlled, celibate and harmless towards all beings, then verily he is a Holy One, a recluse, a Bhikkhu ... Dhammapada 142 --- He comprehends how: Equanimity as a factor of awakening is present within me. Or, there being no equanimity as a factor of awakening present within, he recognizes that: Equanimity as a factor of awakening is not present within me. He realizes how there is the arising of unarisen Equanimity as a factor of awakening. And he comprehends how there is the culmination of the development of equanimity as a factor of awakening once it has arisen. DN 22 --- And of what kind is the controlling ability of Indifference ? That bodily or mental feeling arised from bodily or mental contact, which is neither agreeable nor disagreeable, That!, friends, is called - the controlling ability of Indifference [Upekkha, Equanimity]. Owing to the bodily or mental contact experienced as indifferent, friends, arises the controlling ability of Indifference. The one who experiences it, being indifferent, is fully aware of being indifferent. Also on the ceasing of that bodily or mental contact experienced as indifferent, that controlling ability of Indifference so ceasing, the one thus experiencing its end, is aware that it ceases, is aware that it fades. Just as, friends, when rubbing two sticks together, heat is produced; likewise when moving these sticks apart, the warmth so born ceases, exactly so, friends, owing to bodily or mental contact experienced as indifferent, arises the controlling ability of Indifference. The one who experiences it, being indifferent, is fully aware of being so. Similarly on the ceasing of that bodily or mental contact experienced & felt as indifferent, that controlling ability of Indifference so arised the one experiencing its end, is aware that it ceases, is aware of it being lost. Finally, friends, suppose a bhikkhu dwells earnest, ardent and aspiring, and there arises in him the controlling ability of Indifference. He is aware of it thus: 'There has arisen in me this controlling ability of Indifference. Now this is constructed, has its causes, it's components, and it's conditions. That the controlling ability of Indifference should arise without these causes, parts and reasons is quite impossible.' Thus he comes to know fully both the controlling ability of Indifference, it's arising, it's ceasing: and how, when arising, the controlling ability of Indifference comes to cease without remainder, that also he knows fully... Now, friends, how does the controlling ability of Indifference comes to cease without remainder ? Here, friends, a bhikkhu, by passing utterly beyond the state of neither-perception-nor-non-perception, attains and abides in the state of cessation of perception and feeling. It is here that the controlling ability of Indifference, when arisen, comes to cease without remainder. Such one, friends, is called: A Bhikkhu who have understood the ceasing of the controlling ability of Indifference, one who have collected his mind for the attaining of such a state... Samyutta Nikaya V - XLVIII. Indriya-samyutta. --- Equanimity towards one's own internal states - that is a link to wisdom. Equanimity regarding external phenomena & conditions - that is a link to wisdom too. Samyutta Nikaya V - XLVI. Bojjhanga-samyutta. --- With the fading of rapture he remains in equanimity, mindful & alert, still physically sensitive to bodily pleasure. He enters & remains in the third jhana, of which the Noble Ones declare: 'In aware Equanimity, one abides in pleasure.' With the stilling of pleasure & pain as with the earlier disappearance of elation & frustration he enters & remains in the fourth jhana: purity of aware equanimity, - neither pleasure nor pain - This is called right concentration. --- A monk intent on heightened mind should attend periodically to these three themes: he should attend periodically to the theme of concentration; (samadhi) he should attend periodically to the theme of uplifted energy; (viriya) he should attend periodically to the theme of equanimity. (Upekkha) When he attends periodically to the theme of concentration, energy, & equanimity, his mind becomes pliant, malleable, luminous, & not brittle. It is then rightly focused for the elimination of the fermentations. Anguttara Nikaya III.100 --- Gaining this precious pleasure not of the flesh, one decides to pursue this subtle equanimity: gradually wearing down the five hindrances with endurance constantly stirred; entering the jhanas with a mind unified, aware, & directly knowing how it actually becomes in the total break of all mental chains, not clinging to anything, his mind is rightly released! In One such rightly released, there comes the assurance, 'This release is irreversible.' That is the supreme knowledge. That is the sublime happiness. Sorrow, stain & dustless, Finally at rest, at ease, & in peace that is release from all debt. Anguttara Nikaya VI.45 --- Practice Universal Equanimity (Upekkha) as a Mother towards her grownup son who is busy with his own affairs who she neither is bothered by nor concerned or worried about. --- The Blessed One said: "Now how, Ananda, in the discipline of a noble one is there the unexcelled development of the senses? There is the case where, when seeing a form with the eye, there arises in a monk what is agreeable, what is disagreeable, what is agreeable & disagreeable. He discerns that: 'This agreeable thing has arisen in me, this disagreeable thing... this both agreeable & disagreeable thing has arisen in me. And that is constructed, conditioned, coarse & dependently co-arisen … But this is peaceful, this is exquisite, namely equanimity! Instantly, that arisen agreeable or disagreeable thing ceases, and equanimity takes its stance! Just as a man with good eyes, having closed them, might open them; or when open might close them, that is how quickly, how rapidly, how easily, no matter what it refers to, equanimity make whatever arisen agreeable thing... or disagreeable thing... or agreeable & disagreeable thing cease, and equanimity takes it's stance! In the discipline of The Noble Ones, this is called the unexcelled development of the senses with regard to visible forms cognizable by the eye. MN 152 --- Pleasant feeling is agreeable when it arises but disagreeable when it ceases! Painful feeling is disagreeable when it arises but agreeable when it ceases! Indifferent feeling is agreeable when one os aware of it but disagreeable when one is unaware of it! --- Now, O monks, what is worldly equanimity? There are these five cords of sensual desire: forms cognizable by the eye ... sounds cognizable by the ear ... ... tangibles cognizable by the body that are wished for and desired, agreeable and endearing, associated with sense desire and alluring. It is the equanimity that arises with regard to these five cords of sense desire, which is called 'worldly equanimity.' Now, what is unworldly equanimity? With the stilling of pleasure and pain, and with the previous disappearance of gladness and sadness, a monk enters upon and abides in the fourth meditative absorption - neither-pain-nor-pleasure - pure awareness due to equanimity. This is called 'unworldly equanimity.' And what is the still greater unworldly equanimity? When a fermentation-free monk looks upon his mind that is freed of greed, freed of hatred and freed of confusion, then there arises equanimity. This is called a 'still greater unworldly equanimity'. Samyutta Nikaya XXXVI.31 --- Calm is his mind. Calm is his speech. Calm is his action. So is the Tranquility; So is the Equanimity; of one freed by the Insight of right knowledge. Dhammapada 96 --- Turning your back on pleasure & pain, as earlier with sorrow & joy, attaining pure equanimity, tranquility, wander alone, like a rhinoceros. At the right time console with the release through friendliness, through understanding, through appreciation & equanimity, infinite & unobstructed by all in the world, in any world, wander so alone like a rhinoceros. Sutta Nipata: Khaggavisana Sutta --- The elimination of both sensual desires & of discontent, the ejection of laziness, the calming of regrets, just this pure equanimity being aware of all mental properties exactly at the moment they appear: That I call the direct knowledge of release the breakthrough from ignorance. Sutta Nipata V.13: Udaya's Questions --- There, oohh monks, the monk with a mind full of equanimity pervading first one direction, then a second one, then a third one then the fourth one, just so above so below and all around; and everywhere identifying himself with all, he is pervading the whole world with a mind full of equanimity, with a mind wide, developed, unbounded, free from hate, and ill-will ... --- “Cool Calm is the ultimate Balm” --- I would make my bed in a charnel ground with a skeleton for a pillow. And cowherd boys came up and spat on me, urinated on me, threw dirt at me, and poked sticks into my ears. Others, exultant & thrilled brought me offerings of food, perfume & garlands of flowers. Yet I do not recall that I ever showed any partiality towards any of them. I was the same to them all. Neither arousing fondness nor aversion. Such was my abiding in equanimity MN 12 Lomahamsanapariyaya The Hair-raising Presentation Cariyapitaka III 15 --- Equanimity (Upekkha) is the tenth perfection (parami) Come On Now friends! This One is the tenth one to adopt, practice, develop, refine, & perfect resolutely: The equanimity of even minded & well balanced indifference, just the earth accepts whatever fine & foul is thrown upon her without reacting with neither like nor dislike, then a Buddha's wisdom shall be yours! Jataka Nidana (introduction) -oo0oo- Inspired by 'Gemstones of Good Dhamma': Wheel 342/344 1987 Ven. S. Dhammika, BPS Buddhist Publication Society, Kandy, Sri Lanka. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/wheels/wheel342.html for the gladdening of good people & for free forward : - ] Best wishes, Friendship is the GREATEST !! & the whole Motivation behind the entire Noble Life ... Samanera Samahita Cypress Hut, Gangamulla Bambarella, Thawalantenna 20838. Central Province. SRI LANKA. Email: monomuni@m... WWW: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Buddha-Direct : - ] -- A saying of the Buddha from http://metta.lk/ He who is stained (with defilements) without self-control and truthfulness, is not worthy of wearing the yellow robes. Random Dhammapada Verse 9 22877 From: Sarah Date: Sun Jun 15, 2003 0:19am Subject: Hi from Anders Dear All, Another old friend from DSG , Anders, also sends ‘hi’ to everyone. He’s recently started 3months’ travel in Asia. We were hoping to meet up, but not sure it’s going to happen. Anders: “I am in Kohn Kaen at the moment. I'll be heading to Wat Pah Nanachat in a few days and spend some time there. From there, I imagined going to Cambodia, into Vietnam and Loas before returning to Thailand around Chiang Mai.” Metta, Sarah ====== 22878 From: Ong Teng Kee Date: Sun Jun 15, 2003 2:01am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Dating of texts, to Jim. advice needed. Dear Jim, I think that pande and davids view are like buddha is just a putthujana .there are no nibbana at all for this so-called buddhasasana. Dear Nina, I think you should get these two books,Oskar von hinuber-handbook of pali(from mushiram,India) and K.R.Norman-pali literarture (from german). Jim Anderson wrote: Dear Nina, This is an interesting but perplexing question and before I try to answer I must tell you that I'm no expert in these matters either. To answer your question: yes, (I think) there can be other reasons for a difference in style. I can think of one in particular going right back to the Buddha himself when he taught a nine-fold scheme (nava"nga) for classifying the different kinds (or styles) of teachings that include the Jatakas and Veyyaakara.na (expositions such as the Abhidhamma teachings). I think the Pa.tisambhidaamagga belongs to the Veyyaakara.na type. I find questions of the sort concerning the dating of texts to be somewhat beyond my ability to give satisfactory answers to. However, I'll share a few thoughts and ideas on this matter. I think we have to make a distinction between what a tradition says about the origins of its texts and what is said about them by those who are speaking from outside the tradition as we find in the writings of academics and even some bhikkhus. I can hardly say much about the origins of the Pa.tisambhidamagga. I think one can find in the commentaries (eg. the Vinaya cty) that this work (ascribed to Sariputta) was recited at the first council, but it might be worth checking very carefully the wording in Pali as you want to be sure that this is quite clear. When an academic like Warder says to the effect that the text came centuries later, one will have to examine very closely the arguments in favour of a later dating. I think he has something to say about the dating in his introduction to the Path of Discrimination. There is a discipline in the academic world which attempts to approach, in an objective way, old texts like an archaeologist doing a dig among the ruins of an ancient city and determining the dating of the different layers of artifacts. I think the idea is that an old text can take many centuries to evolve into its final form. This is something that I haven't bothered much with as I would much rather spend my time studying a text just as it is. I have a book entitled _Studies in the Origins of Buddhism_ by G.C. Pande which takes even individual suttas and tries to show that some parts are earlier than others. I did read some of it and honestly I just couldn't buy into it and I found the principles involved rather questionable. I also read a part of one of Mrs. Rhys Davids' books which similarly examines the Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta and goes so far as to argue that the eightfold path is a later addition inserted by monks and never spoken by the Buddha. Mrs. Rhys Davids was obviously unhappy with the eightfold path :(. Anyway, trying to date a text or parts of it can be rather speculative. I'm quite happy to accept what the tradition says about its texts and get on with studying them. Best wishes, Jim --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > Dear Jim, > It is said of some parts of the Tipitaka, such as the Patisambidhamagga, > that because of its style it is of later date. I am not an expert and cannot > judge about Pali forms and style which are more recent. Can there be other > reasons for a difference in style: the contents, or, its being written down > at a later date, although it was originally rehearsed at the first Council? > Such questions come up time and again and I would appreciate your ideas > about it, > Nina. 22879 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Jun 15, 2003 2:56am Subject: Re: [dsg] Concepts & Ultimate Realities (archery corner) Howard Thanks for these comments (some of which are ideas that I've not come across before). My comments are interspersed. I look forward to your further thoughts. --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Jon - ---------------------------------------------------- H: I agree that thoughts are mind-constructed. I think it doubtful that a thought is created by the act of awareness that is currently discerning the thought. There must a constructive mental *process* that creates the thought and presents it for conscious discernment. ... As I see it, the awareness of a thought is the last step in a process of thought creation, most of which is unconscious. We are fooled, I think, into thinking that we, for the most part, consciously create our thoughts. What I think is the case is that for the most part they are unconsciously constructed and then, finally, though not always, presented to awareness. ---------------------------------------------------- J: You doubt that a thought is created by the act of awareness that is currently discerning the thought. I am wondering what the basis of your doubt is -- is it, for example, experience-based, text-based or other (e.g., ideological)? You mention a model whereby thoughts are created by a mental process of some kind and then presented to the consciousness of which they are to be the object. This implies 2 different types of consciousness: one that creates thoughts (but does not experience them), and another that experiences thoughts (but does not create them). Is that a distinction that you have perceived, or perhaps seen referred to somewhere? Just for comparison, under the standard (Abhidhamma) model, presently experienced thoughts are the creation of present thinking, and present thinking is conditioned by a number of factors including the thinking that has preceded it, recently experienced sense-door object(s) and one's accumulated tendencies. As far as the unconscious aspect you mention is concerned, this of course is a common but, I would suggest, purely conventional perspective. What is happening 'subconsciously/unconsciously' is still consciousness (citta) with concept as object, and this consciousness is just as real, just as *arisen*, as the 'conscious' consciousness. Are you suggesting a distinction of any significance between the two? ---------------------------------------------------- H: There is also no hardness without an act of consciousness discerning it. ---------------------------------------------------- J: It depends what you mean by 'no hardness' -- no hardness arising, or no hardness experienced. As you agree later in your post, no one can say for sure that, in the absence of the experiencing of hardness, hardness does not arise. So it cannot really be said that without an act of consciousness discerning it, hardness does not *arise* (and, according to the teachings on conditionality, that is not the case anyway.) On the other hand, it is of course true by definition that without an act of consciousness discerning it, hardness is not *experienced*. ---------------------------------------------------- H: Another critical difference is that those mental objects that are percepts (the percept of 'the tree is see right now through my den window') and that are concepts (the concept of 'tree') seem to *refer*. They seem to point to something, some conventional object or class of objects, beyond themselves. ---------------------------------------------------- J: But there is not anything in the concept/percept *itself* that refers to anything, I think. The perceived referential aspect is purely in the mind of the person conceiving the thought of 'tree' (although not at the very moment of thought conception). Thus, the association between the concept and the 'object' it refers to depends on conditioning factors peculiar to the individual. ---------------------------------------------------- H: But the objects of other sense doors lack such referential aspect - they do not point beyond themselves. They are direct. In the seeing there is just the seeing, in the hearing just the hearing, etc. It is mind that projects. ---------------------------------------------------- J: I agree with both parts of this last statement. These are useful things to be reminded of. "In the seeing there is just the seeing, in the hearing just the hearing, etc." This is so, because the mind-moment of experiencing a sense-door object, such as this very moment of seeing, is a moment of resultant consciousness (vipaka citta, the result of some previously occurring kamma/cetana) and as such is totally devoid of any kusala or akusala tendencies and the 'colour' that those tendencies lend to consciousness. "It is mind that projects." Mind projects, in the shape of the kusala and akusala mind-moments that arise subsequent to the mere experience of the sense-door object. So while both the seeing and the projecting are moments of consciousness, and have in common the characteristic of experiencing an object, they are regarded as different classes of consciousness under the standard 4-fold classification of kusala, akusala, vipaka and kiriya. Such classifications can help us understand more about the different realities of the present moment. ----------------------------------------------------- H: But they [the objects of the sense-door consciousness] are kamma-created, which ultimately means they are cetana-created. But, yes, they are not mental constructs in the same way that thoughts are. ------------------------------------------------------ J: I don't think it's correct to say that the objects of sense-door consciousness are kamma-created. As discussed just above, it is the *consciousness that experiences* the sense-door object that is result of kamma (vipaka). When it comes to the conditioning factors for the objects of sense-door consciousness, there are 2 ways of looking at this. There are both the *factors that condition the [rupa that is] sense-door object to arise in this plane of existence*, and the *factors that condition the [rupa that is] sense-door object to become the object of sense-door consciousness*. According to the teachings, dhammas are conditioned in the sense that their arising in this plane of existence is dependent on conditions (this is the generally understood meaning of the term 'sankhata'). The rupas that constitute the inanimate objects in the world, for example, are said to be conditioned by temperature alone. They are not in any sense cetana-created (although certain bodily rupas, for example, are indeed kamma-conditioned). Whether or not a particular rupa becomes the object of an individual's sense-door consciousness depends on an altogether different set of conditioning factors. It is here that the individual's kamma/vipaka comes into play. Kamma is a condition for sense-door consciousness to experience a particular rupa, and this sense-door consciousness is a moment of vipaka consciousness. 'Vipaka' refers to the consciousness that experiences, not the rupa that is experienced; in no sense does the rupa thereby become kamma created (according to my understanding of the standard reading of the texts). ------------------------------------------------------ H: What exists beyond experience is, per force, unknowable. We cannot presume or deny the existence, for example, of experience-independent hardness. ------------------------------------------------------ J: That is generally correct. But if, exceptionally, someone was able by direct experience to understand the conditioning factors behind fundamental phenomena, then he or she could know the answer to this. ------------------------------------------------------ H: I doubt its existence, but I do not know one way or the other. ------------------------------------------------------ J: I suppose this would be because the idea of the independent existence of rupas doesn't square with the phenomenalist view of the world ;-)). ------------------------------------------------------ H: That's just not so, Jon. Our state of mind dramatically effects what we observe and how it appears. This is well known, and, I think, quite evident. [J had said: ...the sense-door object has its own nature and independent existence, which is in no way determined by the 'quality' of the experiencing consciousness] ------------------------------------------------------ J: Again, this is the universally common perception, but by no means the whole of the story in terms of moment-to-moment dhammas, as explained in the teachings. The moment of consciousness that we refer to as 'what we observe and how it appears' are, in terms of your earlier remarks, functions of the mind's 'projecting', following upon the moments of mere seeing, hearing, etc. These projections are of course manifestations of (otherwise latent) kusala and akusala tendencies, while the preceding moments of mere seeing, hearing etc are resultant consciousness (the result of kamma in the past) and not directly related to the moments of kusala and akusala consciousness that preceded them. I am sure it is correct to say that what we *pay attention to* is affected by our general (preceding) state of mind, but I'm not at all sure that the same goes for the *actual sense-door objects experienced*. What do you think? Jon 22880 From: Sarah Date: Sun Jun 15, 2003 3:24am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Dating of texts, to Jim. advice needed. Dear Jim, Nina,Teng Kee, Lee & All, I’m interested to hear all your comments relating to the dating of the Pa.tisambhidaamagga. I realise there are different approaches which Jim summarised well. --- Jim Anderson wrote: > > ......I think one can find in the commentaries (eg. > the Vinaya cty) that this work (ascribed to Sariputta) was recited at > the first council, but it might be worth checking very carefully the > wording in Pali as you want to be sure that this is quite clear. ..... As I already typed some relevant detail on this particular point in my series from the Baahiranidaana (Buddhaghosa's intro to Comy to Vinaya), let me repost it. It is from the section on The First Council, (Jayawickrama's transl).The part with asterisks is the relevant part to this thread and I’ve added a little of the Pali for this section at the end of the post. I’m taking the chance to requote a little more than is relevant to this point because it relates to the origins of the Abhidhamma Pitaka which is being discussed in other threads. ========================================= Extracts from section 16 (p.14) onwards: ‘ The word of the Buddha which should be known as uniform in sentiment, twofoldas the Dhamma and the Vinaya, threefold according to the first, intermediate, and last words, and similarly as Pitakas (Baskets), fivefold according to the Nikayas (Collections), ninefold according to the Angas (Factors), and forming 84,000 divisions according to the Units of the Dhamma.’ ...... ‘How is it twofold as the dhamma and the vinaya? All this, in its entirety, is reckoned as the dhamma and the Vinaya. Herein the Basket of the Discipline is the Vinaya, the rest of the word of the Buddha is the Dhamma. Hence was it stated: “Let us, friends, rehearse the Dhamma and the Vinaya,” and :I shall question Upali on the Vinaya and Ananda on the dhamma.” Thus it is twofold as the Dhamma and the Vinaya.’ ..... With regard to the term, Abhidhamma, it says: ‘Since here are found conditions which possess growth and their own characteristics, are revered and differentiated and said to be excellent- on account of these it is called Abhidhamma.’ . ..... A little later, there is a description of the 3 Pitakas, Vinaya, suttanta and Abhidhamma: ‘Here follows the explanation and elucidation. These three Pitakas, indeed, according to formal analyses are said to be the authoritative injunctions, the popular teachings, and the ultimate truth respectively; or they are the discourses necesitated by transgressions, those adapted to circumstances, and those set out in acordance with reality respectively; or again, discourses on the various categories of restraint, on the refutation of heresies, and on the distinction between Name and Form , respectively. Herein, the Vinayapitaka is called the exposition of injunctions as it has been preached with a preponderance of authority by the Exalted One in whom all authority is vested; the suttapitaka, the exposition of popular teachings as it has beem preached with great emphasis on popular ethics by the Exalted One who was proficient in popular ethics; and the Abhidhammapitaka, the exposition of ultimate truth as it has been preached with great leanings on absolute truth by the Exalted One who is adept in the absolute truths. ‘Likewise, the first is called the teaching necessitated by transgressions wherin those beings who are given to many misdeeds are admonished in accordance with the nature of their offences; the second, that adapted to circumstances wherein beings who are given to divers dispositions, latent tendencies, and traits of character are admonished in accordance with their adaptability; and the third, that set out in accordance with reality wherein bengs who conceive of an ego and what pertains to it, only in the presence of a pile of conditions, are instructed in terms of the absolute truth.......’ ******************** Pali (any typos are mine!) ***** 20 <18> Katham pi.takavasena tividha.m. Sabbam pi h’eta.m Vinayapi.taka.m Suttantapi.taka.m Abhidhammapi.takan ti tippabhedam eva hoti. Tattha pa.thamsa”ngiitiya.m sa”ngiita~n ca asa”ngiita~n ca sabbam pi samodhaanetvaa, ubhayaani Paatimokkhaani, dve Vibha”ngaani, dvaaviisati Khandhakaani, so.lassa Parivaarati ida.m Vinayapi.taka.m naama. Brahmajaaladicatutti.msasuttasa”ngaho Diighanikaayo,............... Pa.tisambhidaa.............Khuddakanikaayo ti, ida.m suttantapi.taka.m naama.” ***** Metta, Sarah ====== 22881 From: abhidhammika Date: Sun Jun 15, 2003 3:52am Subject: Re: Dating of texts, to Jim. advice needed. Dear Jim How are you? Thank you for your excellent reply to Nina's question. Your attitude to the whole matter is what I would call "Proper Mental Positioning" (yoniso manasikaaro). With regards, Suan --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Jim Anderson" wrote: Dear Nina, This is an interesting but perplexing question and before I try to answer I must tell you that I'm no expert in these matters either. To answer your question: yes, (I think) there can be other reasons for a difference in style. I can think of one in particular going right back to the Buddha himself when he taught a nine-fold scheme (nava"nga) for classifying the different kinds (or styles) of teachings that include the Jatakas and Veyyaakara.na (expositions such as the Abhidhamma teachings). I think the Pa.tisambhidaamagga belongs to the Veyyaakara.na type. I find questions of the sort concerning the dating of texts to be somewhat beyond my ability to give satisfactory answers to. However, I'll share a few thoughts and ideas on this matter. I think we have to make a distinction between what a tradition says about the origins of its texts and what is said about them by those who are speaking from outside the tradition as we find in the writings of academics and even some bhikkhus. I can hardly say much about the origins of the Pa.tisambhidamagga. I think one can find in the commentaries (eg. the Vinaya cty) that this work (ascribed to Sariputta) was recited at the first council, but it might be worth checking very carefully the wording in Pali as you want to be sure that this is quite clear. When an academic like Warder says to the effect that the text came centuries later, one will have to examine very closely the arguments in favour of a later dating. I think he has something to say about the dating in his introduction to the Path of Discrimination. There is a discipline in the academic world which attempts to approach, in an objective way, old texts like an archaeologist doing a dig among the ruins of an ancient city and determining the dating of the different layers of artifacts. I think the idea is that an old text can take many centuries to evolve into its final form. This is something that I haven't bothered much with as I would much rather spend my time studying a text just as it is. I have a book entitled _Studies in the Origins of Buddhism_ by G.C. Pande which takes even individual suttas and tries to show that some parts are earlier than others. I did read some of it and honestly I just couldn't buy into it and I found the principles involved rather questionable. I also read a part of one of Mrs. Rhys Davids' books which similarly examines the Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta and goes so far as to argue that the eightfold path is a later addition inserted by monks and never spoken by the Buddha. Mrs. Rhys Davids was obviously unhappy with the eightfold path :(. Anyway, trying to date a text or parts of it can be rather speculative. I'm quite happy to accept what the tradition says about its texts and get on with studying them. Best wishes, Jim 22882 From: kenhowardau Date: Sun Jun 15, 2003 4:26am Subject: Re: meditation vs. just thinking about it Dear Yasa, We were discussing the question; 'is the Buddha's teaching a set of instructions (a prescription), to be carried out or is it a description of reality to be understood?' You wrote: ----------- > I certainly prefer my "mis-understood" Buddhism.... > --------- I'm attached to my personal preferences too, but let's try to ascertain the teaching of the Buddha as presented in the Pali Canon, with its commentaries and sub-commentaries. --------------- > The Buddha is called the 'Behsajja'- a doctor,who has found a cure for those beings suffering in the Samsara. That way the Buddha's teaching is a prescription. > -------------- The profundity of this "prescription," is that there is no being for whom it is written. This presents a huge obstacle in the path of anyone who wants to treat it as conventional prescription. --------------- > We cannot ask questions like "who is sitting" " is there a self who can meditate", because we are not enlightened beings to speak of us as "no- selves". > --------------- If we want to understand that there is no being who can follow the Path, then those questions are the exactly what we SHOULD be asking -- whenever we find ourselves treating the Dhamma as a conventional set of instructions. ------------ > "We" are there whether we like it or not and we are trying to use the Buddha's "prescription" to really know whether the "self "exists or not > --------------- Anatta is immensely profound but we must not give up on the task of understanding it. We mustn't "practise" the Dhamma as if the Buddha had never taught there is no self who can practise. There is absolutely no merit in taking the, "if you can't beat them, join them" approach. That would diminish this unique, incomparable Dhamma to "just another, conventional, teaching." ---------------- > That cannot be understood through intellectual dissertations. > ----------------- I sincerely hope you will continue your current conversation with Sarah, until you have understood her point of view. In the Buddha's teaching of satipatthana, right understanding always comes first. Please don't dismiss this as incongruous; we do already have a degree of right understanding. We already understand what visible object is and what sound, flavour, hardness etc., are. However, if we try to direct consciousness to these realities, then the desired object is replaced by a concept. Our understanding of hardness, for example, becomes replaced by the concept of an area in space where our body contacts the floor. The same applies to mental phenomena; we already have an understanding of what feelings are and of what greed, hatred, ignorance etc., are. However, if we try to put a label on a specific period of time at which a particular reality exists, then we have replaced our right understanding with understanding of a concept. Our natural, conditioned understanding is our greatest asset. We must accept (understand), that it grows independently of any self who wants to develop it. Kind regards, Ken H 22883 From: monomuni Date: Sun Jun 15, 2003 5:09am Subject: Happy & Released Friends: When noting the transience of an object When realizing the inherent misery of an object When comprehending the impersonality of an object Equanimity takes its stance Gladness springs up in him When he is glad happiness emerges When his mind is happy his body grows calm When his body is calm he feels pleasure When feeling pleasure his mind becomes concentrated When concentrated he sees is as it really develops When realizing how it really becomes, he is disgusted When so disgusted his greed gradually & naturally fades away With the final elimination of all craving is he released. Yeah Aaahhh!!! Adapted from: Path of Discrimination I (407) Patisambhidamagga I [85] -- A saying of the Buddha from http://metta.lk/ He who delights in subduing (evil) thoughts, who meditates on "the loathsomeness" (of the body), who is ever mindful, - it is he who will make an end (of craving). He will sever Mara's bond. Random Dhammapada Verse 350 22884 From: buddhatrue Date: Sun Jun 15, 2003 5:16am Subject: Re: meditation vs. just thinking about it --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > Dear Yasa, > > We were discussing the question; 'is the Buddha's > teaching a set of instructions (a prescription), to be > carried out or is it a description of reality to be > understood?' > > You wrote: > ----------- > > I certainly prefer my "mis-understood" Buddhism.... > > > --------- > > I'm attached to my personal preferences too, but let's > try to ascertain the teaching of the Buddha as presented > in the Pali Canon, with its commentaries and sub-commentaries. > > --------------- > > The Buddha is called the 'Behsajja'- a doctor,who has > found a cure for those beings suffering in the Samsara. > That way the Buddha's teaching is a prescription. > > -------------- > > The profundity of this "prescription," is that there is > no being for whom it is written. This presents a huge > obstacle in the path of anyone who wants to treat it as > conventional prescription. > Hi Ken H, It appear to me that you are extrapolating something from the teachings that isn't there. First, I want to address what I see as a mistake in your perspective. The perspective you seem to have about the Buddha's teachings is that nothing should be taken at face value. That the teachings are so profound and deep that they can't possibly mean what they say and that the only way to get to their true meaning is to pour over the commentaries and sub-commentaries (which are not in wide circulation, only adding to their mystique) until their true meaning is revealed. This is a natural instinct of people so I don't fault you for it. It is hard to accept that the Four Noble Truths is all there is, nothing more than that, no secret way of looking at them. It isn't that they are difficult to understand, they are just difficult to follow. Now, your greatest mistake in analysis is that you believe you know what anatta means. I'm sorry, but you don't know what anatta means, you just think you know what it means. You see the translation 'no- self' and assume that there is no self to do anything so the Buddha wasn't really prescribing a course of action, he was describing reality. In other words, he wasn't teaching anyone because there wasn't anybody to teach. It seems to me that your idea of anatta has lead you to have a perspective bordering on delusional thinking. The Four Noble Truths are prescriptive and the Buddha did describe the dhamma as medicine for the sick…a prescription. No amount of talking down to people is going to change that. This is of course one of my typical posts to this group *yawn*…which don't seem to go anywhere. Neither side wants to budge from his/her position. Honestly, Ken H., if you could present compelling evidence from the suttas for your perspective, I would change my mind. But I have yet to see you or anyone do that. It has always been extrapolation based on faulty reasoning and wishful thinking…argued with vague words/phrases presented in a haughty tone. Metta, James 22885 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Sun Jun 15, 2003 6:51am Subject: Re: meditation vs. just thinking about it Hi Ken H, Regarding the conditioned understanding, what are the conditions that condition understanding? Do you mean the conditions that "lead to the acquiring of the as-yet-unacquired discernment that is basic to the holy life, and to the increase, plenitude, development, & culmination of that which has already been acquired" as taught in Anguttara Nikaya VIII.2 Pañña Sutta Discernment http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an08-002.html ? Your comment is appreciated. Peace, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > Dear Yasa, [snip] > > Our natural, conditioned understanding is our greatest > asset. We must accept (understand), that it grows > independently of any self who wants to develop it. > > Kind regards, > Ken H 22886 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Sun Jun 15, 2003 7:52am Subject: Re: To like or not to like Hi Christine, Like the word "dhamma" in Pali, the word "love" is polymorphic in the English language. It has been used with different connotations in different contexts. The Buddha taught brahmavihara, the divine abodes, the sublime states. One could say that the teaching on brahmavihara is the teaching on love, and certainly, love in terms of brahmavihara is different from love in terms of attachment and lust. Regarding brahmavihara, here is a passage from the article The Four Sublime States Contemplations on Love, Compassion, Sympathetic Joy and Equanimity by Nyanaponika Thera http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/wheels/wheel006.html Four sublime states of mind have been taught by the Buddha: Love or Loving-kindness (metta) Compassion (karuna) Sympathetic Joy (mudita) Equanimity (upekkha) In Pali, the language of the Buddhist scriptures, these four are known under the name of Brahma-vihara. This term may be rendered by: excellent, lofty or sublime states of mind; or alternatively, by: Brahma-like, god-like or divine abodes. These four attitudes are said to be excellent or sublime because they are the right or ideal way of conduct towards living beings (sattesu samma patipatti). They provide, in fact, the answer to all situations arising from social contact. They are the great removers of tension, the great peace-makers in social conflict, and the great healers of wounds suffered in the struggle of existence. They level social barriers, build harmonious communities, awaken slumbering magnanimity long forgotten, revive joy and hope long abandoned, and promote human brotherhood against the forces of egotism. Your comment is appreciated. Peace, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Hello everyone, [snip] > Question: At the time, I remember wondering whether the Dhamma > values the state of 'feeling no increase in liking of one being over > another', and if so, how we are instructed to achieve that state. > Wouldn't all love be 'attachment'? I am familiar with the MN 87 > Piyajatika Sutta 'From One Who is Dear' where the inevitable > consequence of love is sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & > despair. > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/majjhima/mn087.html > > I recognise that my feelings are uncontrollable, and that even a > Sotapana ( Stream Enterer) and a Sakadagami (Once Returner) still > has 'feelings' of various sorts - but does anyone have any thoughts > or sutta references on how we are to train ourselves with regard to > others, and whether it is preferable to love all universally or no- > one particularly at all? ? Would this state of being unaffected by > (i.e. not caring particularly about individual others) be > called 'equanimity' or something else? > > metta and peace, > Christine > ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- 22887 From: Date: Sun Jun 15, 2003 4:27am Subject: Re: [dsg] Concepts & Ultimate Realities (archery corner) Hi, Jon - In a message dated 6/15/03 5:58:01 AM Eastern Daylight Time, jonoabb@y... writes: > Howard > > Thanks for these comments (some of which are ideas that I've not come > across before). My comments are interspersed. I look forward to > your further thoughts. > > --- upasaka@a... wrote: >Hi, Jon - > > ---------------------------------------------------- > H: I agree that thoughts are mind-constructed. I think it > doubtful that a thought is created by the act of awareness that is > currently discerning the thought. There must a constructive mental > *process* that creates the thought and presents it for conscious > discernment. > ... > As I see it, the awareness of a thought is the last step in a process > of thought creation, most of which is unconscious. We are fooled, I > think, into thinking that we, for the most part, consciously create > our thoughts. What I think is the case is that for the most part they > are unconsciously constructed and then, finally, though not always, > presented to awareness. > ---------------------------------------------------- > > J: You doubt that a thought is created by the act of awareness that > is currently discerning the thought. I am wondering what the basis > of your doubt is -- is it, for example, experience-based, text-based > or other (e.g., ideological)? > > You mention a model whereby thoughts are created by a mental process > of some kind and then presented to the consciousness of which they > are to be the object. This implies 2 different types of > consciousness: one that creates thoughts (but does not experience > them), and another that experiences thoughts (but does not create > them). Is that a distinction that you have perceived, or perhaps > seen referred to somewhere? > > Just for comparison, under the standard (Abhidhamma) model, presently > experienced thoughts are the creation of present thinking, and > present thinking is conditioned by a number of factors including the > thinking that has preceded it, recently experienced sense-door > object(s) and one's accumulated tendencies. > > As far as the unconscious aspect you mention is concerned, this of > course is a common but, I would suggest, purely conventional > perspective. What is happening 'subconsciously/unconsciously' is > still consciousness (citta) with concept as object, and this > consciousness is just as real, just as *arisen*, as the 'conscious' > consciousness. Are you suggesting a distinction of any significance > between the two? > -------------------------------------------------------- Howard: So, far, actually, I don't think we are in any appreciable disagreement. I see the process of thought creation as one which is done in a "consciousness process", but one in which the level of discernment is what is called "subliminal" these days. Thoughts are mental constructs, and that constructing does involve mental discernment, if nothing else to hold onto the "proto-thought" so far constructed, rather like a sculptor holds onto his/her clay or stone . But there is no (usual) conscious awareness of any step except the last at which the thought discernment is at the level of clarity that we call "being conscious" in everyday parlance. As far as whether or not that last step is part of the constructive phase, or is purely observational, I just don't know. I suspect that it is discernment only, without sankharic construction going on, and similar to that of an initial stage of discerning a sight or sound, but I don't know this for a fact, and certainly don't insist on it. Thjat last step *might* include the hammering in the the final nail. ----------------------------------------------------- > > ---------------------------------------------------- > H: There is also no hardness without an act of consciousness > discerning it. > ---------------------------------------------------- > > J: It depends what you mean by 'no hardness' -- no hardness arising, > or no hardness experienced. > ------------------------------------------------------------ Howard: That's exactly what I mean. I am speaking only phenomenologically. I am not presuming "physical objects out there" that have properties such as hardness; if there are such things, I am not talking about them. ------------------------------------------------------------ > > As you agree later in your post, no one can say for sure that, in the > absence of the experiencing of hardness, hardness does not arise. So > it cannot really be said that without an act of consciousness > discerning it, hardness does not *arise* (and, according to the > teachings on conditionality, that is not the case anyway.) > ---------------------------------------------------- Howard: That's true. Moreover, as you see from earlier in this post, I allow for consciousness operating at a subliminal level. [In fact, one hypothesis I have, as an aside based on pure speculation, so not "believed in", is that with the arising of a multi-rupic kalapa, the phenomenological locus of arising is in the mind (in the sense that all the rupas of the kalapa are discerned), but with only one of them arising at the level of conscious awareness, that one being the "current object". Just a theory to be tested should my mindfulness, energy, and concentration ever lead to insight adequate to the task of seeing the reality of the situation. ---------------------------------------------------- > > On the other hand, it is of course true by definition that without an > act of consciousness discerning it, hardness is not *experienced*. > > ---------------------------------------------------- > H: Another critical difference is that those mental objects that are > percepts (the percept of 'the tree is see right now through my den > window') and that are concepts (the concept of 'tree') seem to > *refer*. They seem to point to something, some conventional object or > class of objects, beyond themselves. > ---------------------------------------------------- > > J: But there is not anything in the concept/percept *itself* that > refers to anything, I think. The perceived referential aspect is > purely in the mind of the person conceiving the thought of 'tree' > (although not at the very moment of thought conception). Thus, the > association between the concept and the 'object' it refers to depends > on conditioning factors peculiar to the individual. --------------------------------------------------------------- Howard: I agree completely. This is why I said "SEEM to refer". There is an inherent defect in concepts. They tend to fool by nature. (Nonetheless they are useful.) ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > ---------------------------------------------------- > H: But the objects of other sense doors lack such referential aspect > - they do not point beyond themselves. They are direct. In the seeing > there is just the seeing, in the hearing just the hearing, etc. It is > mind that projects. > ---------------------------------------------------- > > J: I agree with both parts of this last statement. These are useful > things to be reminded of. > > "In the seeing there is just the seeing, in the hearing just the > hearing, etc." This is so, because the mind-moment of experiencing a > sense-door object, such as this very moment of seeing, is a moment of > resultant consciousness (vipaka citta, the result of some previously > occurring kamma/cetana) and as such is totally devoid of any kusala > or akusala tendencies and the 'colour' that those tendencies lend to > consciousness. > > "It is mind that projects." Mind projects, in the shape of the > kusala and akusala mind-moments that arise subsequent to the mere > experience of the sense-door object. > > So while both the seeing and the projecting are moments of > consciousness, and have in common the characteristic of experiencing > an object, they are regarded as different classes of consciousness > under the standard 4-fold classification of kusala, akusala, vipaka > and kiriya. ----------------------------------------------------- Howard: Complete agreement, Jon. ----------------------------------------------------- > > Such classifications can help us understand more about the different > realities of the present moment. > > ----------------------------------------------------- > H: But they [the objects of the sense-door consciousness] are > kamma-created, which ultimately means they are cetana-created. But, > yes, they are not mental constructs in the same way that thoughts > are. > ------------------------------------------------------ > > J: I don't think it's correct to say that the objects of sense-door > consciousness are kamma-created. As discussed just above, it is the > *consciousness that experiences* the sense-door object that is result > of kamma (vipaka). > > When it comes to the conditioning factors for the objects of > sense-door consciousness, there are 2 ways of looking at this. There > are both the *factors that condition the [rupa that is] sense-door > object to arise in this plane of existence*, and the *factors that > condition the [rupa that is] sense-door object to become the object > of sense-door consciousness*. > > According to the teachings, dhammas are conditioned in the sense that > their arising in this plane of existence is dependent on conditions > (this is the generally understood meaning of the term 'sankhata'). > The rupas that constitute the inanimate objects in the world, for > example, are said to be conditioned by temperature alone. They are > not in any sense cetana-created (although certain bodily rupas, for > example, are indeed kamma-conditioned). > > Whether or not a particular rupa becomes the object of an > individual's sense-door consciousness depends on an altogether > different set of conditioning factors. > -------------------------------------------------------- Howard: I'm speaking only phenomenologically, Jon. I'm not hypothesizing about what might exist (ultimately) beyond experience. -------------------------------------------------------- It is here that the> > individual's kamma/vipaka comes into play. Kamma is a condition for > sense-door consciousness to experience a particular rupa, and this > sense-door consciousness is a moment of vipaka consciousness. > 'Vipaka' refers to the consciousness that experiences, not the rupa > that is experienced; in no sense does the rupa thereby become kamma > created (according to my understanding of the standard reading of the > texts). ------------------------------------------------------ Howard: I am only addressing momentary discernment and its internal object, not alleged external entities. ------------------------------------------------------ > > ------------------------------------------------------ > H: What exists beyond experience is, per force, unknowable. We > cannot presume or deny the existence, for example, of > experience-independent hardness. > ------------------------------------------------------ > > J: That is generally correct. But if, exceptionally, someone was > able by direct experience to understand the conditioning factors > behind fundamental phenomena, then he or she could know the answer to > this. > ------------------------------------------------------ Howard: And if I had a lot of money, I'd be rich! ;-) ------------------------------------------------------ > > ------------------------------------------------------ > H: I doubt its existence, but I do not know one way or the other. > ------------------------------------------------------ > > J: I suppose this would be because the idea of the independent > existence of rupas doesn't square with the phenomenalist view of the > world ;-)). > ----------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Aside from the fact that I find the phenomenalist view attractive and that it clarifies much in the Dhamma for me (though not necessarily for anyone else), it is more the other way around. It is obvious to me that whatever is actually experienced is "internal", and anything "external" is merely hypothesized (and quite possibly concept-only), and it is this that makes me a phenomenalist. --------------------------------------------------------- > > ------------------------------------------------------ > H: That's just not so, Jon. Our state of mind dramatically effects > what we observe and how it appears. This is well known, and, I think, > quite evident. > [J had said: ...the sense-door object has its own nature and > independent existence, which is in no way determined by the 'quality' > of the experiencing consciousness] > ------------------------------------------------------ > > J: Again, this is the universally common perception, but by no means > the whole of the story in terms of moment-to-moment dhammas, as > explained in the teachings. > --------------------------------------------------------- Howard: It seems to me that "the teachings" put enormous emphasis on how our mind, its predispositions, its accumulations, and its defilements radically effect the nature and quality of our perception. All the magic show similes, all the talk of seeing things other than how they are (such as seeing the impermanent as permanent) are examples of this. -------------------------------------------------------- > > The moment of consciousness that we refer to as 'what we observe and > how it appears' are, in terms of your earlier remarks, functions of > the mind's 'projecting', following upon the moments of mere seeing, > hearing, etc. These projections are of course manifestations of > (otherwise latent) kusala and akusala tendencies, while the preceding > moments of mere seeing, hearing etc are resultant consciousness (the > result of kamma in the past) and not directly related to the moments > of kusala and akusala consciousness that preceded them. > ------------------------------------------------------ Howard: Well, I do agree that the beginning stage of a 5-sensory perception is "pristine", but even as soon as sa~n~na comes into play, the mind is involved in a "mixing operation" of past experience with current experience. ------------------------------------------------------- > > I am sure it is correct to say that what we *pay attention to* is > affected by our general (preceding) state of mind, but I'm not at all > sure that the same goes for the *actual sense-door objects > experienced*. What do you think? ------------------------------------------------------- Howard: I agree about what we attend to. As far as more is concerned, I hope my last paragraph clarifies my perspective a bit. -------------------------------------------------------- > > Jon > > =============================== I find this is an interesting conversation, Jon. Thank you. :-) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 22888 From: yasalalaka Date: Sun Jun 15, 2003 8:21am Subject: Re: meditation vs. just thinking about it --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > Dear Yasa, > > We were discussing the question; 'is the Buddha's > teaching a set of instructions (a prescription), to be > carried out or is it a description of reality to be > understood?' > ... _______________________________YASA___________________ Hello KenH; I was about to reply your post, when I saw a post that has been addressed to you by James. This post amply explains all that I would have said and more, and with such a convincing vehemence, I leave it as it is, for you to read and, re-read until the meaning sinks in. James writes: "Now, your greatest mistake in analysis is that you believe you know what anatta means. I'm sorry, but you don't know what anatta means, you just think you know what it means. You see the translation 'no- self' and assume that there is no self to do anything so the Buddha wasn't really prescribing a course of action, he was describing reality. In other words, he wasn't teaching anyone because there wasn't anybody to teach. It seems to me that your idea of anatta has lead you to have a perspective bordering on delusional thinking. The Four Noble Truths are prescriptive and the Buddha did describe the dhamma as medicine for the sick…a prescription. No amount of talking down to people is going to change that. This is of course one of my typical posts to this group *yawn*…which don't seem to go anywhere. Neither side wants to budge from his/her position. Honestly, Ken H., if you could present compelling evidence from the suttas for your perspective, I would change my mind. But I have yet to see you or anyone do that. It has always been extrapolation based on faulty reasoning and wishful thinking…argued with vague words/phrases presented in a haughty tone. Metta, James " with metta, Yasa 22889 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Sun Jun 15, 2003 8:59am Subject: Re: meditation vs. just thinking about it Hi Ken H, If you mean that there is no being who can follow the Noble Eightfold Path, you might want to refer to Samyutta Nikaya XII.65 Nagara Sutta The City http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn12-065.html In particular, "In the same way I saw an ancient path, an ancient road, traveled by the Rightly Self-awakened Ones of former times. And what is that ancient path, that ancient road, traveled by the Rightly Self- awakened Ones of former times? Just this noble eightfold path: right view, right aspiration, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration. That is the ancient path, the ancient road, traveled by the Rightly Self-awakened Ones of former times. I followed that path. Following it, I came to direct knowledge of aging & death, direct knowledge of the origination of aging & death, direct knowledge of the cessation of aging & death, direct knowledge of the path leading to the cessation of aging & death. I followed that path. Following it, I came to direct knowledge of birth... becoming... clinging... craving... feeling... contact... the six sense media... name-&- form... consciousness, direct knowledge of the origination of consciousness, direct knowledge of the cessation of consciousness, direct knowledge of the path leading to the cessation of consciousness. I followed that path. "Following it, I came to direct knowledge of fabrications, direct knowledge of the origination of fabrications, direct knowledge of the cessation of fabrications, direct knowledge of the path leading to the cessation of fabrications. Knowing that directly, I have revealed it to monks, nuns, male lay followers & female lay followers, so that this holy life has become powerful, rich, detailed, well-populated, wide-spread, proclaimed among celestial & human beings." Your comment is appreciated. Peace, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > Dear Yasa, > > We were discussing the question; 'is the Buddha's > teaching a set of instructions (a prescription), to be > carried out or is it a description of reality to be > understood?' > > If we want to understand that there is no being who can > follow the Path, then those questions are the exactly > what we SHOULD be asking -- whenever we find ourselves > treating the Dhamma as a conventional set of > instructions. [snip] > Kind regards, > Ken H 22891 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Jun 15, 2003 0:03pm Subject: Perfections, Ch 10, loving-kindness, no 3 Perfections, Ch 10, loving-kindness, no 3 We read in the Tipiìaka 1 that performing deeds with mettå is like the conduct of a mother towards her child. If we look at the outward appearance of deeds we may wonder whether a mother has true mettå or whether she has just selfish affection for her child. She has to sacrifice everything for her child when she takes care of him. Sometimes the child is dirty and disagreeable to touch, but she still takes care of him. We should consider whether a mother has true mettå for her child, or whether she has only selfish affection. A mother should know her own cittas, she should be truthful with regard to reality: kusala is kusala and akusala is akusala. It is right that the Tipitaka explains about mettå as being the same as a mother¹s conduct towards her child. However, we should remember that mettå is not the same as the attachment a mother may have to her child. If one can have the same conduct towards other people as a mother¹s selfless loving care for her child, then we practise mettå. When we see someone else who is kind to a stranger, to someone who is not close to him, we should not wonder why he acts thus, because true mettå is not restricted to particular people. All people are equal, no matter whether they are close to us or not, no matter whether we do not even know them. Did we in our daily life assist others with generosity? We wish for their wellbeing and happiness. They may not yet have experienced sorrow, but we wish to promote their happiness and we have loving-kindness towards them. We wish others well and that is mettå. When someone experiences sorrow, when he suffers, we may have compassion and wish that he will be free from suffering. When we wish to help a person who is sick and who suffers pains, when we want to take care of him, we have compassion: we wish that person to be free from suffering. By the development of satipaììhåna we shall know the difference between the characteristics of mettå and of aversion. When we recognize the characteristic of aversion as akusala, paññå which sees the disadvantage and the ugliness of aversion and all akusala dhammas is the condition for kusala dhammas to further develop. By the development of satipaììhåna we shall see that instead of dosa, mettå can arise and be increasingly developed. We should also develop time and again the perfection of patience, endurance in all kinds of circumstances. It may happen that someone used to feel annoyed when the food was not tasty, but when he can be aware of the characteristic of the citta at such moments and realize that it is akusala citta, he will be satisfied with the food that is right in front of him, and he will not take the trouble to look for something else. Footnote: 1. For example, in the ³Minor Readings², IX, ³The Loving Kindness Discourse². 22892 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Jun 15, 2003 0:03pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Dating of texts Dear Jim, Thank you very much with your well thought out and careful answer. What you say here is very important. See below. op 14-06-2003 23:44 schreef Jim Anderson op jimanderson_on@y...: there can be other reasons for a > difference in style. I can think of one in particular going right > back to the Buddha himself when he taught a nine-fold scheme > (nava"nga) for classifying the different kinds (or styles) of > teachings that include the Jatakas and Veyyaakara.na (expositions > such as the Abhidhamma teachings). I think the Pa.tisambhidaamagga > belongs to the Veyyaakara.na type. N: This is important. I think of the sutta text (M, I, 133) about: Sutta, Geyya, Veyyaakara.na etc. As you say, expositions such as the Abhidhamma teachings. Classifications of dhammas is bound to be of a different style. Difference in style between sutta and Abhidhamma puts people off, but there are reasons. People even say, where is abhidhamma mentioned here, but the Atthasalini carefully explains. See Exp. I, Intro. Here is also explained the differences between each of the three pitakas, and this under different aspects, very impressive. I come back to that later on. Jim: I think the idea is that an old > text can take many centuries to evolve into its final form. This is > something that I haven't bothered much with as I would much rather > spend my time studying a text just as it is.... . I'm quite happy to accept what the > tradition says about its texts and get on with studying them. N: I quite agree, back to the texts themselves. Some people say that Buddhaghosa manipulated with the texts, and this idea causes people to lose confidence in the Abhidhamma and the Commentaries. I can also find only one answer: read the old texts, preferably in Pali, take the trouble to read the texts themselves. Then one cannot help being impressed by the translations of the old texts by Buddhaghosa, by the profundity of the thoughts one finds therein. Or take alone the Visuddhimagga, the more one studies the more one sees its benefit. By reading the texts, one also gets to know the person of the translator who was so careful, concerned with the texts and had such deep understanding. I try to find time as much as possible to read the texts in Pali. Reading the texts, taking the trouble to do so, will convince people that Buddhaghosa could not possibly be an impostor, someone who is careless or who too readily believed everything he heard. I am just thinking here of the words I have heard from different authors in the course of years. I pay good attention to them because it is regrettable, and also unnecessary that there is so much doubt about the original texts. I want to try the utmost to restore people's confidence in the texts. I am grateful for your careful post, with much appreciation, Nina. P.S. I would appreciate input from others, it is useful. As I quoted from Milinda some time ago, this is not a question of polemics, we can discuss , like Nagasena and Milinda. When I hear different opinions it is a condition to ponder carefully about the why and how of things. I have no time now to quote more from Expositor, I am going away for a few days. 22893 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Jun 15, 2003 0:03pm Subject: Abhidhamma in Kraeng Kacang, Ch 4, no 5. Abhidhamma in Kraeng Kacang, Ch 4, no 5 These four meditation subjects are very suitable for daily life, for all occasions. During our daily activities we can often recollect with confidence and gratefulness the Buddha who taught us the Dhamma. Because of his teachings we can understand the different cittas that motivate our actions, and the nåmas and rúpas that appear all the time. As to loving-kindness, we are in the company of others time and again. The Buddha taught us the characteristic of mettå which is altogether different from selfish affection. He taught us not to restrict mettå to particular persons we are familiar with, but to extend it to everybody we meet. There are many opportunities to have mindfulness of death, not only when we see someone who has died. Actually, there is death at each moment citta falls away, this is momentary death. The falling away of the last citta of this lifespan is not different from the falling away of the citta at the present moment. Acharn Sujin said: ³Why should we have fear of death? Death is only one moment. We do not know when it will happen, we do not know the next moment. If there is sati now we are not neglectful of the development of satipatthåna.² Thus, mindfulness of death can arise at any time. As regards meditation on the foulness of the body, asubha, in samatha this is developed by concentration on a dead body or by recollection on the ³Parts of the Body², with the aim to attain calm. However, the foulness of the body is also a subject appropriate for daily life. We are confronted with the foulness of the body all the time, we cannot avoid this. Through satipatthåna we can learn to see the body as elements, and then we shall be less inclined to find it beautiful or take it for ³mine². The element of hardness which arises and falls away is not beautiful. When characteristics of realities are realized as they are it can be understood that they are not attractive. The teaching on the meditation subjects for all occasions makes it clear that there is no specific time for the development of any kind of kusala, this depends on conditions. There is no rule that samatha should be developed before vipassanå. There is no specific time for the development of vipassanå. 22894 From: Date: Sun Jun 15, 2003 8:32am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Dating of texts, to Jim. advice needed. Hi, Jim - In a message dated 6/14/03 5:45:03 PM Eastern Daylight Time, jimanderson_on@y... writes: > To > answer your question: yes, (I think) there can be other reasons for a > difference in style. I can think of one in particular going right > back to the Buddha himself when he taught a nine-fold scheme > (nava"nga) for classifying the different kinds (or styles) of > teachings that include the Jatakas and Veyyaakara.na (expositions > such as the Abhidhamma teachings). I think the Pa.tisambhidaamagga > belongs to the Veyyaakara.na type. > ======================== Where can one find the Buddha's presentation of this 9-fold scheme? Is it in a sutta? I'd really like to read that. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 22895 From: rjkjp1 Date: Sun Jun 15, 2003 1:47pm Subject: Re: meditation vs. just thinking about it --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "yasalalaka" <> Hello KenH; > > I was about to reply your post, when I saw a post that has been > addressed to you by James. This post amply explains all that I would > have said and more, I leave it > as it is, for you to read and, re-read until the meaning sinks in. > > "Now, your greatest mistake in analysis is that you believe you know > what anatta means. I'm sorry, but you don't know what anatta means, > you just think you know what it means. You see the translation 'no- > self' and assume that there is no self to do anything so the Buddha > wasn't really prescribing a course of action, he was describing > reality. In other words, he wasn't teaching anyone because there > wasn't anybody to teach. It seems to me that your idea of anatta has > lead you to have a perspective bordering on delusional thinking. The > Four Noble Truths are prescriptive and the Buddha did describe the > dhamma as medicine for the sick…a prescription. >. Honestly, Ken H., if you could present compelling evidence > from the suttas for your perspective, I would change my mind. But I > have yet to see you or anyone do that. It has always been > extrapolation based on faulty reasoning and wishful thinking… argued > with vague words/phrases presented in a haughty tone. __________________ Dear Yasa, I hope you don't mind me adding a little to your reply to KenH. In the Majjhima nikaya the Buddha gave a discourse to Pessa: 1.1. Kandarakasutta.m """When this was said, Pessa, the elephant rider's son said Venerable sir, it is wonderful, how wisely the Blessed One has shown the four establishments of mindfulness for the purifiction of beings, for the overcoming of grief, and lament, and for dispelling unpleasantness and displeasure for attaining knowledge and realising extinction. Venerable sir, as a lay disciple wearing white clothes, from time to time I abide, in the four ways of establishing mindfulness. I abide mindful and aware, to dispel covetousness and displeasure for the world, by reflecting the body in the body. Abide mindful and aware, to dispel covetousness and displeasure for the world, reflecting feelings in feelings. Abide mindful and aware to dispel covetousness and displeasure for the world, reflecting the mental states in the mind. Abide, mindful and aware to dispel covetousness and displeasure for the world, reflecting the Teaching. ......[long talk..] sir, we have to go now, we have a lot of work to do. Pessa, do what you think is fit. Then the elephant rider's son Pessa pleased and delighted with the words of the Blessed One got up from his seat, worshipped and circunambulated the Blessed One and went away. Soon after the elephant rider's son had left. The Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus: Bhikkhus, if the elephant rider's son had waited some more time until I explained these four persons, he would have amassed, much knowledge." The commentary says Pessa would have reached the first stage of enlightenment(sotapanna) if he had listened to the full discourse. As it was he greatly benefited as he saw new ways to develop satipatthana. Now a question. Why didn't the Buddha ask him to sit and meditate. Or at least stay till the end of the talk? RobertK 22896 From: rjkjp1 Date: Sun Jun 15, 2003 1:57pm Subject: Present moment Dear Group, A letter I wrote to a friend: Panna (wisdom) is the base of the development of satipatthana. We may have the idea that we have to make the "mind" still so that we can watch nama(mentality) and rupa (materiality): Not realising that the mind is a concept and that namas and rupas are arising and passing away all the time we are trying to arrange this still 'mind', that the nama that 'knows' has disappeared before we even had time to think of it. . We can become intent on trying to do this or that because of clinging to self view and its corollary, wrong practice, silabataparamasa. Subtle wrong ideas that take us out of the present moment If we could see now that we do not have to make seeing happen, or hearing or hardness, that they are conditioned in complex ways, then we would comprehend that all dhammas are similary conditioned and arise without any self doing anything. The understanding of this - which develops as the different dhammas are investigated - is very relaxing, and comes with a detachment that is not dependent on the 'situation', on whether one is sitting or standing, alone, or with others, or whether one is healthy or ill. If it reaches sufficient level then it will be with with strong samadhi, for brief moments; but it is a samadhi that is not the same as trying to concentrate on an object. Silabataparamsa is an aspect of wrong view and cannot exist if anatta, not self, is deeply insighted. The Sammohavinodani (page227): "The ordinary man is like a madman and without considering 'Is this right or not' and aspiring by means of clinging ...he performs any of the kinds of kamma (good or bad)... Thus silabataparamasa (clinging to rules and rituals)is a condition for all three, namely the sense desire world, fine material and immaterial kinds of existence with their divisions and what they include" Thus silabataparamasa can lead to both good and bad states, it can lead even to the highest pleasant feelings experienced in jhana but it cannot lead out of samsara. All ways of kusala (wholesome) can support the development of insight, but they won't if they are clung to or mistaken as the path. I think it is all about understanding the here and now. RobertK 22897 From: rjkjp1 Date: Sun Jun 15, 2003 2:31pm Subject: [dsg] Re: importance of Meditation --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth I have been reading Yasas' and Sarahs' posts with interest. Even > without adamantly supporting one view or the other about the place of > formal meditation - where is the harm in it, even if it is not seen > as essential to liberation? Does formal meditation have any > detrimental effects? If there is the same individual 'stream' of > cittas, and if the kammic history goes along with it, (and therefore > the accumulations of being, or not being, greedy, hateful or > deluded,as well) ... then isn't the individual stream (even though > constantly changing, arising and falling away) always that individual > stream until cessation? So ... wouldn't the practice of > meditation strengthen the accumulations of serenity and other kusala > factors as opposed to the usual agitated state of the mind? _________ Dear Christine, What I think is important is to realise that bhavana (often translated as meditation) is a mental state. Thus there can be bhavana of the correct sort even now while you are reading this. Only you could know. ______________ Surely a calm and pleasant abiding can't be a bad thing? ________ Calm and pleasant abiding: what does it mean? I feel calm and pleasant when I go out jogging or walking in the forest. And probably even more so when I relax in a hot bath afterwards. Nothing wrong with such sense pleasures for laypeople. However whether there is any true bhavana depends not on activity and how relaxed I feel but whether there is detachment at the moment- and that changes very fast. Pleasant feeling arises with craving AND it arises with detachment - only wisdom can distinguish. One moment true calm, the next subtle clinging. It is true, with regard to position, that anapanasati - mindfulness of breathing is an object that needs a crosslegged seated postion with erect back. It also needs a very quiet and isolated place. But this object is said to be the hardest of all meditations so we should not feel that we must develop it. There are other types of samatha - such as Maranasati (meditation on death)- that are suitable for all times. For example the Anguttara nikaya (Book of the Elevens ii 13 p213 Mahanama) says about Buddhanusati and Dhammanusati: "` you should develop it as you sit, as you stand, as you lie, as you apply yourself to business. You should make it grow as you dwell at home in your lodging crowded with children" Sorry to write a bit off-topic Chris, but I think gradually the worry about 'formal meditation' becomes mute. When we sit - as I do for hours every day - is there awareness at those moments or is there not? Is there kusala or ignorance. Is there attasanna - perception of self; or anattasanna, perception of not-self. Mostly my meditation practice involves the investigation of the dhammas at the six doors. It also includes much reflection on Dhamma (Dhammanusati) and this is at the level of samatha. Marananusati (reflection on death) used to be a very common reflection but is more intermittant now. Sometimes there are long periods where there is none of the above- I don't feel guilty when there is no kusala because these moments should be understood too. WE can get very stressed if we have the idea that WE must do this or do that. I take a pretty relaxed approach and that has its obvious dangers but I do think we need to find our own balance, not be making rules about how an ideal buddhist should live. In the Samyutta nikaya V (Sayings on stream entry p347 The great chapter Dhammadina ) 5oo rich merchants came to see the Buddha . They asked how they should live their lives. The Buddha suggested that they train themselves thus: "as to those discourses uttered by the Tathagatha, deep, deep in meaning, transcendental and concerened with the void (about anatta) from time to time we will spend our days learning them. That is how you must spend your days." RobertK 22898 From: buddhatrue Date: Sun Jun 15, 2003 3:12pm Subject: Re: Present moment --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > Dear Group, > A letter I wrote to a friend: > Panna (wisdom) is the base of the development > of satipatthana. Hi Robert K, I disagree. Sila (morality) is the base of the development of satipatthana (meditation). This is also what the Buddha taught. Panna is a consequence of satipatthana, not a prerequisite. Metta, James 22899 From: Date: Sun Jun 15, 2003 4:21pm Subject: Way 102, Mental Objects Commentary on the Satipatthana Sutta, "The Way of Mindfulness" trans. & ed. Soma Thera, Commentary, Buddhaghosa Thera, Subcommentary (tika), Dhammapala Thera. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/misc/wayof.html The Contemplation of Mental Objects The Factors of Enlightenment 5. Calm There are things which condition the enlightenment factor of calm of the body (the aggregates of feeling, perception and the conformations) and of the mind (the aggregate of consciousness) and an abundance of right reflection on these things is conducive to the arising of the non-arisen enlightenment factor of calm and for the increase, expansion, and completion by culture of this enlightenment factor when it has arisen. Seven things lead to the arising of the enlightenment factor of calm: The resorting to fine food, comfortable weather, and comfortable postures; judgment according to the middle way; the avoiding of people who are physically restless; the association with people who are physically calm and the inclination towards the development of the enlightenment factor of calm. [Tika] The resorting to fine food is the resorting to excellent, beneficial food that is suitable to one. The resorting to comfortable weather and postures means the resorting to weather and postures suitable to one. By resorting to this threefold suitability, well-being of mind comes into existence by way of the basis of bodily well-being and there proceeds then the reason for twofold calm. Judgment according to the middle way is reflection on one's own deed as one's own property and another's deed as that of other's property. [T] This is the judgment of things based on the acknowledgment of the law of moral causation avoiding first the extreme view that the suffering and happiness experienced by living beings are causeless and then the other extreme view of ascribing these to a fictive cause like that of a Creator God, and the knowing of all suffering and happiness as one's own action. But he who has the nature of a great man is patient of all kinds of weather and postures. Not concerning such a person has the above been said. The avoiding of people who are physically restless is the keeping away from restless people who go about harassing others with clod and stick. People who are physically calm are those who are quiet because they are restrained on hand and foot. The inclination towards the development of this enlightenment factor is the inclining, sloping, and bending of the mind towards calm in all postures. By the arahant's path the completion by culture of this enlightenment factor takes place. 22900 From: Andrew Date: Sun Jun 15, 2003 4:30pm Subject: Re: meditation vs. just thinking about it --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: > Hi Ken H, > > It appear to me that you are extrapolating something from the > teachings that isn't there. First, I want to address what I see as a > mistake in your perspective. The perspective you seem to have about > the Buddha's teachings is that nothing should be taken at face > value. That the teachings are so profound and deep that they can't > possibly mean what they say A: Hi James and Yasa! James, I get the impression you think all people on DSG are entrenched in their positions. Well, allow me to introduce myself, Mr Still Sitting on the Fence. I appreciate hearing all viewpoints and honestly haven't worked it all out yet. In this thread, there are a few matters that perhaps you can help me with. Re your para above to KenH on the profundity or face value simplicity of the Dhamma, I thought that the Suttanta tells us Buddha spoke these words shortly after his Enlightenment: "This Dhamma which I have realised is indeed profound, difficult to perceive, difficult to comprehend, tranquil, exalted, not within the sphere of logic, subtle, and is to be understood by the wise." Do you take those words of the Buddha at face value? Was he exaggerating the difficulty of his doctrine or should we believe that he meant what he said? > James: Now, your greatest mistake in analysis is that you believe you know > what anatta means. I'm sorry, but you don't know what anatta means, > you just think you know what it means. You see the translation 'no- > self' and assume that there is no self to do anything so the Buddha > wasn't really prescribing a course of action, he was describing > reality. In other words, he wasn't teaching anyone because there > wasn't anybody to teach. It seems to me that your idea of anatta has > lead you to have a perspective bordering on delusional thinking. A: James, in your post, you identify the faults in KenH's perspective, particularly his treatment of the anatta doctrine. I take it you do not dispute that, in the Suttanta, the Buddha did indeed teach this doctrine through metaphors like the chariot. What I don't understand about YOUR perspective is this - what is the face value reading of the anatta teaching? At what level do you say we worldlings are to connect with this teaching? Do we set it aside until ... well, until what? Please do keep contributing to these threads even though you find them a bit of a yawn as people like me really do appreciate hearing all possible interpretations. Metta Andrew 22901 From: robmoult Date: Sun Jun 15, 2003 4:46pm Subject: The Internet "sutra" - Please comment (final? version) Hi All, I added a bit (ISP analogy) and made some minor changes. The editor has asked me to submit the final version in the next few days. I am looking for any additional feedback before I submit. Metta, Rob M :-) ===== The Internet "Sutra" The Buddha was an expert teacher, who often explained the Dhamma using analogies that were familiar to the listener. If the Buddha were alive today, He would likely use today's technology in His analogies. Here is an imaginary "sutra" using a modern technology as an analogy. Thus have I heard. On one occasion, Rob the Engineer was sitting in a cyber-cafe surfing the net and the thought arose, "I do not understand the concepts of mind (nama), matter (rupa) and non-self (anatta). I shall go and ask the Buddha to explain." Rob the Engineer went to the Blessed One, and after paying homage to Him, Rob the Engineer sat down at one side and said: "Venerable sir, please explain to me the concepts of mind (nama), matter (rupa) and non-self (anatta)." "I will explain this to you, Engineer Rob, using the Internet as an example. Before you came to me, what were you doing?" "I was typing at a computer, Venerable Sir." "Tell me, Engineer Rob, what are the things that make up a computer, and what are their functions?" "A computer has both hardware and software. The function of the hardware is to provide a base of support for the software and the function of the software is to receive and process the information that is input." "Does the software operate according to fixed rules, according to its nature, or is there a person or force controlling and directing the software?" "The software operates according to fixed rules, according to its nature." "Engineer Rob, you should understand the senses as you understand the computer. The senses have both nama and rupa. Eye sensitivity, the physical eye, is rupa. Eye consciousness is nama. The function of rupa is to provide a base of support for nama. The function of nama is to receive and process the information from the visible object. Nama operates according to its nature and there is no self controlling it. There is seeing, but there is no seer. This is the view of non-self." "So in this analogy, nama corresponds to the software while rupa corresponds to the hardware. Is this correct, Venerable Sir?" "It is so. Did the computer on which you were typing work in isolation?" "No Venerable Sir, the computer was connected to the Internet." "Engineer Rob, You should understand that the senses do not operate in isolation from the mind." "Venerable Sir, my computer accesses the Internet through an Internet Service Provider. Does this also have a corresponding function in this analogy?" "Yes, Engineer Rob. Sense objects are accessed through `doorways'. One can consider the Internet Service Provider to be analogous to the concept of a `doorway'. How would you describe the `Internet', Engineer Rob?" "The Internet is an uncountable number of computers, all running software, working in unison. Venerable Sir, does this mean that the mind is also nama and rupa?" "Yes, Engineer Rob, the mind is a combination of nama and rupa. Now, is there any force controlling and directing the Internet?" "No, Venerable Sir, the Internet is a very complex combination of hardware and software but there is no single thing in control of the Internet." "You should understand that though the mind is a very complex combination of nama and rupa, there is no self in control of the mind. Engineer Rob, is there a single thing that you can point to and say, `This is the Internet'?" "No Venerable Sir, it is an ever-changing grouping of hardware and software that we label as `Internet'. The `Internet' is a concept; the `Internet' is not a single piece of hardware or software." "This is how you should understand a person, Engineer Rob, as an ever-changing grouping of nama and rupa; a concept, not an ultimate reality. This is the view of non-self." "This analogy is most interesting to me, Venerable Sir." "Engineer Rob, what makes the Internet work?" "In addition to being governed by the laws of physics (signal degradation, etc.), the foundation of the Internet is a set of rules that define how software interacts (TCP/IP, HTTP, etc.). The Internet is almost never at rest as there are almost always inputs arriving from one of the clients." "Even so, In addition to being governed by the laws of utu-niyama (we all must age), the foundation of a person is a set of rules that define how nama interacts (citta-niyama, kamma-niyama). A person is almost never at rest as there are almost always external objects being apprehended by the five senses." "Please continue, Venerable Sir." "Engineer Rob, imagine that your student wished to have a better understanding of the Internet. Would you advise that student to focus their attention on the hardware or the software?" "Venerable Sir, Though hardware is necessary for the Internet to exist, it is best to treat hardware as a platform for software and focus on how hardware impacts the software (speed, capacity, etc.) rather than the technical details of the hardware (processors, etc.). What makes the Internet interesting and powerful is the interaction between software. One can never truly understand the internet looking at the macro-level (appearance of web pages, etc.). To truly understand the Internet, one must understand how the underlying hardware, software and rules work." "Exactly, Engineer Rob. Though rupa is necessary for a person to exist, it is best to treat rupa as a platform for nama and focus on how nama experiences rupa (solidity, cohesion, temperature, motion) rather than the technical details of rupa (protons, neutrons, electrons). What makes a person interesting and powerful is the interaction of nama. One can never truly understand a person looking at the macro-level (personality, etc.). To truly understand a person, one must understand how the underlying rupa, nama and niyama work." Engineer Rob departed and was satisfied and delighted with what he had heard from the Blessed One. 22902 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Sun Jun 15, 2003 5:12pm Subject: [dsg] Re: importance of Meditation Hi RobertK and all, RobertK, thank you for pointing out the discourse Mahanama Sutta, Anguttara Nikaya XI.13. Here is the link to the discourse http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an11-013.html In the discourse, the Buddha instructed Mahanama to develop the recollection of the Buddha, the recollection of the Dhamma, the recollection of the Sangha, the recollection of the one's own virtue, the recollection of one's own generosity, and the recollection of the devas. The Buddha also told Mahanama the benefit of developing these recollections. Regarding anapanasati, it might be the hardest of all meditation practice. It might not. Whether it is the hardest of all meditation practice or not, it is sure that the Buddha pointed out the benefit of developing mindfulness of breathing in the discourse: "Mindfulness of in-&-out breathing, when developed & pursued, is of great fruit, of great benefit. Mindfulness of in-&-out breathing, when developed & pursued, brings the four frames of reference to their culmination. The four frames of reference, when developed & pursued, bring the seven factors for Awakening to their culmination. The seven factors for Awakening, when developed & pursued, bring clear knowing & release to their culmination. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/majjhima/mn118.html Thank you again, RobertK, for pointing out Mahanama Sutta. Your feedback is appreciated. Peace, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: [snip] > Dear Christine, [snip] > It is true, with regard to position, that anapanasati - mindfulness > of breathing is an object that needs a crosslegged seated postion > with erect back. It also needs a very quiet and isolated place. But > this object is said to be the hardest of all meditations so we > should not feel that we must develop it. > > There are other types of samatha - such as Maranasati (meditation > on death)- that are suitable for all times. > For example the Anguttara nikaya (Book of the Elevens ii 13 p213 > Mahanama) says about Buddhanusati and Dhammanusati: [snip] > RobertK 22903 From: Date: Sun Jun 15, 2003 5:20pm Subject: Vism XIV, 3 Hi all, I have embarked upon a project of closely reading the "Understanding" section of the Visuddhimagga (Path of Purification) with the goal of understanding every sentence. So right away I have a question. Consider the following: Vism. XIV, 3 In what sense is it understanding? It is understanding (pa~n~naa) in the sense of act of understanding (pajaanana). What is this act of understanding? It is knowing (jaanana) in a particular mode separate from the modes of perceiving (sa~njaanana) and cognizing (vijaanana). For though the state of knowing (jaanana-bhaava) is equally present in perception (sa~n~naa), in consciousness (vi~n~naa.na), and in understanding (pa~n~naa), nevertheless perception is only the mere perceiving of an object as, say, 'blue' or 'yellow'; it cannot bring about the penetration of its characteristics as impermanent, painful, and not-self. Consciousness knows the object as blue or yellow, and it brings about the penetration of its characteristics, but it cannot bring about, by endeavouring, the manifestation of the [supramundane] path. Understanding knows the object in the way already stated, it brings about the penetration of the characteristics and it brings about, by endeavouring, the manifestation of the path. L: Looking-up "endeavour" in the index I see that it is a translation of padhaana which is usually translated as effort but I don't think this instance refers to Right Effort. Based on examples of this 'endeavour' in other paragraphs it seems to mean thorough investigation. So my question is, is the main difference between consciousness and understanding that brings about the manifestation of the path simply this extra factor of thorough investigation? Larry 22904 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Sun Jun 15, 2003 8:09pm Subject: Re: The Internet "sutra" - Please comment (final? version) Hi Rob M, My comment is that with this so-called "sutra", you are putting words in the Buddha's mouth. And what is worse, you are fabricating what the Buddha would say with your own views, not the teaching of the Buddha. Peace, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" wrote: > Hi All, > > I added a bit (ISP analogy) and made some minor changes. The editor > has asked me to submit the final version in the next few days. I am > looking for any additional feedback before I submit. > > Metta, > Rob M :-) 22905 From: Jim Anderson Date: Sun Jun 15, 2003 9:28pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Dating of texts, to Jim. advice needed. Hi Howard, > Where can one find the Buddha's presentation of this 9-fold scheme? Is > it in a sutta? I'd really like to read that. According to a quick search on the CSCD an enumeration of the nine (or in part) are presented 42 times in the Suttantapi.taka, 9 times in the Abhidhammapi.taka, and twice in the Vinayapi.taka. 1. In the Majjhimanikaaya: 4 times in the Alagguupamasutta, MN 22 (M I 133-4), once in the Mahaasu~n~natasutta, MN 122 (M III 115), note that in this sutta only the first three are given. 2. In the Anguttarnikaaya: 20 times in the Book of Fours, 6 times in the Book of Fives, twice in the Book of Sixes, and three times in the Book of Sevens. 3. In the Khuddakanikaaya: five times in the two Niddesas. 4. Once in the Vibhanga. 5. 8 times in the Puggalapa~n~natti. I can provide more specific references for any of nos. 2 to 5, if you like. Except for MN 122, I don't know how complete the enumeration of the nine are for most of the references. The nine in Pali are: sutta.m, geyya.m, veyyaakara.na.m, gaathaa, udaana.m, itivuttka.m, jaataka.m, abbhutadhamma.m, vedalla.m. Some Sanskrit texts have an additional three. I only know of the Buddha just enumerating them without going into an explanation of each (one will find the explanations in the commentaries). Best wishes, Jim 22906 From: rjkjp1 Date: Sun Jun 15, 2003 9:40pm Subject: Re: Present moment --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" < > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > > Dear Group, > > A letter I wrote to a friend: > > Panna (wisdom) is the base of the development > > of satipatthana. > -------------------------------- > Hi Robert K, > > I disagree. Sila (morality) is the base of the development of > satipatthana (meditation). This is also what the Buddha taught. > Panna is a consequence of satipatthana, not a prerequisite. _________ Dear James, I understand what you mean. I think some of my posts, which stress on anatta and uncontrollability, might seem to minimize the importance of other aspects of the Buddha's teaching, such as sila and samadhi. Nina van gorkom writes in "the commentary to the Cariyapittaka [1]: Thus, esteeming virtue as the foundation for all achievements, as the soil for the origination of all the Buddha-qualities, the beginning, footing, head and chief of all the dhammas issuing in Buddhahood" Endquote. It is that important. However, I know that in my early years of learning Dhamma I misunderstood about sila. I worked hard at it but with an idea that "I" was keeping sila. So on this list I like to point out what I believe are some refined aspects of sila and wisdom. Silabata upadana – clinging to sila and ritual - is a an obstacle on the path. When we have this aspect of wrong view it feels right because we change our life. Now we have rules to follow and special difficult practices to try and master. Our life has changed and we can see the difference it makes- we are calmer and think more clearly. We take these things as signposts that wisdom is also growing but this may not be so. _________ James: Panna is a consequence of satipatthana, not a prerequisite. ________ I think this is partially right. The path of the development of satipatthana needs wisdom from the outset but as satipatthana develops so too do panna, samadhi , saddha (confidence) and other wholesome factors become gradually more powerful. It is a virtuos circle. I think we shouldn't underestimate , though, how profound it is. Some practices may look like satipatthana but might be something else. Here is a brief except from the satipatthana sutta commentary: ""The bhikkhu when experiencing a bodily or mental pleasant feeling knows, 'I experience a pleasant feeling.' Certainly, while they experience a pleasant feeling, in sucking the breast and on similar occasions, even infants lying on their backs know that they experience pleasure. But this meditator's knowledge is different. Knowledge of pleasure possessed by infants lying on their backs and other similar kinds of knowledge of pleasure do not cast out the belief in a being, do not root out the perception of a being, do not become a subject of meditation and do not become the cultivation of the Arousing of Mindfulness. But the knowledge of this bhikkhu casts out the belief in a being, uproots the perception of a being, is a subject of meditation and is the cultivation of the Arousing of Mindfulness. Indeed, the knowledge meant here is concerned with experience that is wisely understood through inquiry. Who feels? No being or person. Whose is the feeling? Not of a being or person. Owing to what is there the feeling? Feeling can arise with (certain) things -- forms, sounds, smells and so forth -- as objects. That bhikkhu knows, therefore, that there is a mere experiencing of feeling after the objectifying of a particular pleasurable or painful physical basis or of one of indifference. (There is no ego that experiences) because there is no doer or agent [kattu] besides a bare process [dhamma]. The word "bare" indicates that the process is impersonal.ENDQUOTE"" http://www.abhidhamma.org/CommentaryFeelings.htm#* So it takes some understanding to begin satipatthana. In the visuddhimagga (I,18 ) In the section on sila it talks about sila as restraint and one of the ways is restraint by mindfulness. With regard to this factor it says "he guards the eye faculty, enters upon restraint of the eye faculty," and it repeats for the other doors. And later it says I42 "On seeing a visible object with the eye, he apprehends neither the signs nor the particulars through which , if he left the eye faculty unguarded, evil an unprofitable states of covetnousness and grief might invade him, he enters upon the way of its restraint.."..And it goes on and then repeats for the other doorways. of concept then the "eyefaculty is unguarded" What does it mean "On seeing a visible object with the eye, he apprehends neither the signs nor the particulars through which , if he left the eye faculty unguarded, evil an unprofitable states of covetnousness and grief might invade ".? This is our normal life - after seeing immediately concepts are formed up of people and things. It is avijja(ignorance) - no sila. But when there is the satipatthana, even at the very beginning level, there is some understanding of the visible object as merely visible object, colours (no being, no object). And that is sila of a high degree. It might seem when we see this division and hear that sila is the foundation that first we perfect sila, then samatha and later panna. However, as we see, right at the beginning of the se ction on sila we have satipatthana explained. And satipatthana comes with panna, with sila, and with samadhi - for those moments when there is correct insight. RobertK 22907 From: Date: Sun Jun 15, 2003 5:53pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Dating of texts, to Jim. advice needed. Hi, Jim - This is great. Thank you very much! With metta, Howard In a message dated 6/16/03 12:32:06 AM Eastern Daylight Time, jimanderson_on@y... writes: > Hi Howard, > > > Where can one find the Buddha's presentation of this 9-fold > scheme? Is > >it in a sutta? I'd really like to read that. > > According to a quick search on the CSCD an enumeration of the nine (or > in part) are presented 42 times in the Suttantapi.taka, 9 times in the > Abhidhammapi.taka, and twice in the Vinayapi.taka. > > 1. In the Majjhimanikaaya: 4 times in the Alagguupamasutta, MN 22 (M I > 133-4), once in the Mahaasu~n~natasutta, MN 122 (M III 115), note that > in this sutta only the first three are given. > 2. In the Anguttarnikaaya: 20 times in the Book of Fours, 6 times in > the Book of Fives, twice in the Book of Sixes, and three times in the > Book of Sevens. > 3. In the Khuddakanikaaya: five times in the two Niddesas. > 4. Once in the Vibhanga. > 5. 8 times in the Puggalapa~n~natti. > > I can provide more specific references for any of nos. 2 to 5, if you > like. Except for MN 122, I don't know how complete the enumeration of > the nine are for most of the references. The nine in Pali are: > sutta.m, geyya.m, veyyaakara.na.m, gaathaa, udaana.m, itivuttka.m, > jaataka.m, abbhutadhamma.m, vedalla.m. Some Sanskrit texts have an > additional three. I only know of the Buddha just enumerating them > without going into an explanation of each (one will find the > explanations in the commentaries). > > Best wishes, > Jim > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 22908 From: Date: Sun Jun 15, 2003 10:07pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: importance of Meditation Hi Christine, You wrote: "Surely a calm and pleasant abiding can't be a bad thing?" L: I agree and I don't see what the debate is really about. Almost all modern teachers of "insight meditation" reject the cultivation of jhana as either a waste of time, dangerous, or impossible. But _all_ teachers of every kind of meditation incorporate at least a measured degree of tranquility in their program. Just from reading the words it seems to me the recognition of presently arising realities as taught by Tan Acharn Sujin is the same as Mahasi Sayadaw's Insight Meditation. The difference is that Tan Acharn's method is relaxed and unambitious while the Sayadaw's method is formal and eager to catch every reality as it arises. I don't know the program but I would guess this formality, at least, affords a measure of tranquility and Tan Acharn's relaxed style does the same. To my mind tranquility is the whole point. One pointed attention is for the purpose of tranquility and insight is for the purpose of tranquility. Tranquility is peace and nibbana is peace. The only difference is that the peace of tranquility is imperfect and comes and goes, while the peace of nibbana is perfect and always the case. I personally have a lot of doubt about whether nibbana is really what I want but a little taste of tranquility now and then chips away at that doubt. Larry 22909 From: Sarah Date: Mon Jun 16, 2003 0:01am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Dating of texts, to Jim. advice needed. Hi Howard, Jim & All, I can’t resist quoting a passage from the Abhidhamma, Pubbala-Pa~n~natti(Designation of Human Types), Div. of Human Types by Four,9, which I know you’ll both appreciate, mentioning as it does the 9-fold scheme of teachings and also giving a good example of how the Abhidhamma isn’t always dry and difficult to appreciate, and sometimes much closer to the Sutta style;-). (Transl and explanations of terms are B.C.Law’s, PTS) ***** “What are the four types of persons that are comparable to mice? Four kinds of mice - those that dig their holes but do not live therein; those that live in holes but do not (themselves) dig them; those that live in the holes that they dig; those that neither dig holes for themselves nor live therein. In the same way also there are four types of persons that are found in this world who are comparable to mice. What are the four? Those that have dug holes but do not dwell. Those who dwell but do not dig. Those who dig and dwell. Those who neither dig nor dwell. What sort of person is one who digs the hole but does not dwell? Here a certain person masters the doctrine consisting of the Sutta <1.A portion of the Buddhist scriptures>, Geyya <2.Mixed prose and verse>, Vyaakara.na <3.Exposition>, Gaathaa <4.Stanzas>, Udaana <5.Enthusiastic or joyous utterance, Itivuttaka <6.Name of the 4th bk of the KN>, Jaataka <7.Buddhist birth stories>, Abbutadhamma <8.miraculous stories>, Vedalla <9.Name of one of the nine portions of the Buddhist scriptures according to matter>, but all the same he does not truly realise suffering, the origin of suffering, the cessation of suffering, the way leading to the cessation of suffering. Such is the person who is a digger but not a dweller. Just as the mouse digs a hole but does not dwell in it, so also is this person. What sort of person is one who dwells in the hole but does not dig it? Here a certain person does not master a doctrine consisting of the Suttas, etc, but he truly realises suffering etc. Such a person is a dweller but not a hole-digger. Just as a mouse which dwells in a hole it does not dig, so also is this person. What sort of person is a digger as well as a dweller? Here a certain person learns the doctrine consisting of Sutta, etc, and truly realises suffering, etc. Such a person is a digger as well as a dweller. Just as the mouse which digs its hole and dwells in it, so also is this person. What sort of person is neither a digger nor a dweller? Here a certain person neither learns the doctrine, nor does he truly realise suffering, etc. Such a person is one who is neither a digger nor a dweller. Just as the mouse which neither digs its hole nor dwells in it, so also is this person. These are the four kinds of persons that live in this world who are comparable to mice.” ***** Happy dwelling, regardless of how much digging there is;-) Metta, Sarah ====== 22910 From: Sarah Date: Mon Jun 16, 2003 1:11am Subject: Re: [dsg] cessation of rebirth & kammic activities Dear Friend (Bodhi), --- bodhi dhamma wrote: > Dear Bros. & Sis. > > I am a new comer of the group and particularly weak in Abhidhamma. .... Welcome to DSG and thank you for your interesting first question which I think Rob M gave a good answer to in response. It was not a simple or beginner Qu at all! Perhaps we can say that the root causes of all new kammic activity have been eradicated, so therefore no conditions as RobM said for kusala (and of course akusala) cittas to arise for the arahant. Perhaps you can tell us a little more about what prompted this question and perhaps share a little more about your interest in the teachings and perhaps where you live, we'd be glad to hear. Meanwhile I hope you find some of the other threads useful. With metta, Sarah If we can encourage you (and any other new members) to sign off with a name (preferably a 'real' one)that you wish us to use, that would be appreciated;-) =========== 22911 From: sarahdhhk Date: Mon Jun 16, 2003 1:36am Subject: Re: Fruitfull & Happy Uposatha Greeting! Dear Samanera Samahita, Welcome to DSG too! >>May your fullmoon Uposatha day & night be Fruitfull & Happy! >>Samanera Samahita Cypress Hut, Gangamulla Bambarella, Thawalantenna 20838. Central Province. SRI LANKA. ======================================= Thankyou for all your selections which include may excellent passages. As DSG is already a very active discussion list, it won't be possible for so many lengthy extracts to be posted again, but we have plenty to reflect on for quite a while! Perhaps you might consider just sending the brief ones with a comment or two of your own as well to point out your interest . I hope you're also able to follow some of the other threads of discussion and perhaps contribute. Thank you for the reminder for appamaada (heedfulness) below. As we may recall, the last words of the Buddha were to `strive on with diligence'(appamaadena sampaadetha) ======== >>Distinctly understanding this (difference) the wise (intent) on heedfulness rejoice in heedfulness, delighting in the realm of Ariyas. Random Dhammapada Verse 22 ========== With metta, Sarah ======= 22912 From: Sarah Date: Mon Jun 16, 2003 2:05am Subject: Sabba Sutta contd;-) Hi Howard & Victor, Glad to see you are both in some agreement at least on this thread;-) --- upasaka@a... wrote: > The Sabba Sutta (from ATI) reads as follows: > > ******************************************* > "Monks, I will teach you the All. Listen & pay close attention. I will > speak." "As you say, lord," the monks responded. The Blessed One said, > "What is the > All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & > flavors, > body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas. This, monks, is called the > All. [1 > *********************************************** > > I fail to see how this includes nibbana. Unless nibbana simply is > "the > all", but with the defilements absent, ..... Nibbana is included in dhammayatana, translated here as ‘ideas’. Dhammayatana includes all realities not included in the other 11 ayatanas, i.e cetasikas, subtle rupas and nibbana. It is part of the ‘all’ that the Buddha taught. ..... H:>I do not see how one could > justify > seeing a "nibbana dhatu" as included here. As it stands, this listing of > "the > all" does not include a dhamma called "nibbana," and, moreover, this > sutta denies > the existence of any dhamma beyond this"all". .... That’s right - no other paramattha dhamma beyone this ‘all’. I’m sorry if I’m being dense, but I have a hard time understanding the difficulty. Perhaps it relates to earlier discussions about nibbana as object of particular types of consciousness. I could see that perhaps the Nanananda psychological theory might have a problem here and elsewhere. ..... > This seems to me to put one in the position of either denying the > > existence of nibbana (untenable from a Buddhist perspective), or of > identifying it > with samsara-freed-of-defilements (a Mahayana perspective), or as seeing > it > not as a thing at all, but as a mere absence - the absence of defilement > (also > a Mahayana perspective, and that of many Theravadins as well). ..... I wouldn’t consider any of these positions to be accurate from the Theravada text point-of-view. I’d be glad for any more assistance with understanding the difficulty with what I’ve mentioned (and confirmed in other posts with comy detail). Victor, with regard to yr questions on the same text: --- yu_zhonghao wrote: > Is mind-object/idea/dhammayatana satisfactory or > unsatisfactory/dukkha? ..... The conditioned dhammas included in dhammayatana (i.e. not inc. nibbana) are mostly certainly dukkha. ..... > How is nibbana, the cessation of dukkha, unborn -- unbecome -- > unmade -- unfabricated, mind-object/idea/dhammayatana? ..... Because dhammayatana usually includes cetasikas, subtle rupas (conditioned dhammas) and nibbana. Again, perhaps I’m missing your point and again, I think we have to read each sutta carefully so as to know exactly what is being referred to. Ayatanas (sense bases) are very difficult to understand (even intellectually) for most of us and I think that this is impossible without a clear comprehension of namas and rupas in the first place. With metta, Sarah p.s I'd also be glad to look together at any of the other suttas, B.Thanissaro mentions if you wish to post them (or a link) one by one. Perhaps others will also join in with their understanding. ===== 22913 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Mon Jun 16, 2003 4:39am Subject: Re: Sabba Sutta contd;-) Hi Sarah, Thank you for your reply. Let me quote the following from Samyutta Nikaya XXXV.28 Aditta-pariyaya Sutta The Fire Sermon http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn35-028.html "The intellect is aflame. Ideas are aflame. Consciousness at the intellect is aflame. Contact at the intellect is aflame. And whatever there is that arises in dependence on contact at the intellect -- experienced as pleasure, pain or neither-pleasure-nor- pain -- that too is aflame. Aflame with what? Aflame with the fire of passion, the fire of aversion, the fire of delusion. Aflame, I say, with birth, aging & death, with sorrows, lamentations, pains, distresses, & despairs. Mind-objects/ideas/dhammayatanas are unsatisfactory/dukkha. They are aflame with the fire of passion, the fire of aversion, the fire of delusion, aflame with birth, aging & death, with sorrows, lamentations, pains, distresses, & despairs. Nibbana, the cessation of dukkha, unborn -- unbecome -- unmade -- unfabricated, is NOT a mind-object/idea/dhammayatana. If you were saying that nibbana is a mind-object/idea/dhammayatana, do you mean that the idea about nibbana is a mind- object/idea/dhammayatana? Which is more appropriate to say? "Nibbana is a mind-object/idea/dhammayatana." or "The idea about nibbana is a mind-object/idea/dhammayatana." ? Your comment is appreciated. Peace, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > Hi Howard & Victor, [snip] > > Is mind-object/idea/dhammayatana satisfactory or > > unsatisfactory/dukkha? > ..... > The conditioned dhammas included in dhammayatana (i.e. not inc. nibbana) > are mostly certainly dukkha. > ..... > > How is nibbana, the cessation of dukkha, unborn -- unbecome -- > > unmade -- unfabricated, mind-object/idea/dhammayatana? > ..... > Because dhammayatana usually includes cetasikas, subtle rupas (conditioned > dhammas) and nibbana. [snip] > > With metta, > > Sarah 22914 From: bodhi dhamma Date: Mon Jun 16, 2003 2:08am Subject: Re: [dsg] cessation of rebirth & kammic activities Sarah wrote: Perhaps you can tell us a little more about what prompted this question and perhaps share a little more about your interest in the teachings and perhaps where you live, we'd be glad to hear. Meanwhile I hope you find some of the other threads useful. =========== Hi, Sis. Sarah Thank you for kind concern. I am P C Yap from Malaysia, greeting to everyone of this group! As a parttime sunday dhamma school teacher, for adults with little or no dhamma knowledge, I use to have a lots of questions from the floor that I must confess that I am not good enough to answer.Altough I have a small personal library to refer, but the problem is that I don't know which chapter to refer to.This is especially true when questions like Abhidhamma is concerned, worse still it is my weak area. I started attending abhidhamma class conducted by Rob Moult in K Lumpur, it is so COINCIDENTAL that Rob, by answering my questions here, also become my teacher in this group! (I didn't have chance to seek his answer in K. Lumpur class.) Basically I have gone through the doctrines, History of Buddhism in India. However I find the standard of knowledge is very high in this group and 'dare not' contribute for fear of making serious errors. Right now I am going through most of the contributions from others and hope to learn something here. Thanks for everyone. with metta pc yap 22915 From: Sarah Date: Mon Jun 16, 2003 5:52am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Dating of texts, to Jim. advice needed. Dear Friends, The following is the entry for the nine-fold classification of literary styles from Nyanaponika’s dictionary (under sasana): ***** QUOTE: Navanga-Buddha (or satthu)-sásana, the nine-fold Dispensation of the Buddha (or the Master) consists of * suttas (sutta), * mixed prose (geyya), * exegesis (veyyákarana), * verses (gáthá), * solemn utterances (udána), * sayings of the Blessed One (itivuttaka), * birth stories (játaka), * extraordinary things (abbhutadhamma), and * analysis (vedalla). This classification is often found in the suttas (e.g. M.22). According to the commentaries, also the Vinaya and the Abhidhamma Pitaka are comprised in that nine-fold division (see Atthasálini Tr., I, 33). It is a classification according to literary styles, and not according to given texts or books. ***** Metta, Sarah ------------------------------------------------------------------------ p.s apologies for the following typo in my earlier post: > Pubbala-Pa~n~natti(Designation of Human Types), Should read: Puggala-Pa~n~natti ====================== 22916 From: monomuni Date: Sun Jun 15, 2003 5:18am Subject: Object Condition (Aramanna Paccaya) Friends: All states are mental! All phenomena whether internal or external are as objects received, examined & perceived by the mental consciousness and thereby mental by very nature. All even physical objects whether in world or body are thereby ultimately speaking also just a mental representation - a created neural image - & nothing more nor nothing else ... Not much is there to loose as it changes momentarily anyway to something else ... Reference Conditional Relations p2 Patthana Thank you, : - ] -- A saying of the Buddha from http://metta.lk/ Should one see a wise man, who, like a revealer of treasure, points out faults and reproves; let one associate with such a wise person; it will be better, not worse, for him who associates with such a one. Random Dhammapada Verse 76 22917 From: robmoult Date: Mon Jun 16, 2003 6:13am Subject: Re: [dsg] cessation of rebirth & kammic activities Hi PC, Welcome! I have mentioned this discussion group a few times over the past couple of years on Sunday mornings, but (to my knowledge) you are the first person to join in! Please tell others in the class! I learn a lot from being part of this group. You are correct that the standard of knowledge is very high. Please ask more questions. Like you, sometimes I get asked a question in class to which I do not know the answer. If I can't find an answer from Bro. Teo or in the texts, I bring the question to DSG. As a final resort, I go to Chief Reverend. Metta, Rob M :-) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, bodhi dhamma wrote: > Thank you for kind concern. I am P C Yap from Malaysia, greeting to everyone of this group! > > As a parttime sunday dhamma school teacher, for adults with little or no dhamma knowledge, I use to have a lots of questions from the floor that I must confess that I am not good enough to answer.Altough I have a small personal library to refer, but the problem is that I don't know which chapter to refer to.This is especially true when questions like Abhidhamma is concerned, worse still it is my weak area. > > I started attending abhidhamma class conducted by Rob Moult in K Lumpur, it is so COINCIDENTAL that Rob, by answering my questions here, also become my teacher in this group! (I didn't have chance to seek his answer in K. Lumpur class.) > > Basically I have gone through the doctrines, History of Buddhism in India. However I find the standard of knowledge is very high in this group and 'dare not' contribute for fear of making serious errors. Right now I am going through most of the contributions from others and hope to learn something here. Thanks for everyone. 22918 From: christhedis Date: Mon Jun 16, 2003 7:21am Subject: Re: meditation vs. just thinking about it --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "yasalalaka" wrote: > > > Chris, > > Meditation and thinking are two different mental activities. What we > do most of the time is thinking. We can think of wholesome things > and unwholesome things. In meditation one does not think but > cultivates mindful awareness. Contrary to thinking, mindful > awareness is of wholesome activities. In thinking we use our > knowledge, which is not our own, but is based on what we have read or > heard. When we think of the future we only use our knowledge of the > past to interpret the future which is unknown. > > In thinking we are using concepts, which are conventional and > worldly. In meditation, we become aware of the" here and now", and > go beyond concepts to realise the ultimate realities. Bhavana ,the > Pali word for meditation means , cultivation of the mind. Buddhism > is not just to be a good person and do the correct things in life > according to what we have learnt, but to understand why every thing > is not always the same. Why things change, why happiness does not > last, why there is illness and pain. What causes anger, stress, > jealousy and hatred. > > Root causes of all ills are the attachment, aversion and delusion. > These causes are the result of the belief in a "self", "me" > and "I". If we can understand the reality of "self", we can overcome > the un-satisfactoriness of life. To understand the reality of life, > we meditate so that through meditation we can purify the mind to see > for ourselves the impermanence, un-satisfactoriness and no-self. > These are only words, and makes for a superficial understanding of > the Buddha's teachings, but if you want " to deeply understanding > the teaching" to see through the words and comprehend the true nature > of self, one has to meditate. > > With metta, > Yasa Yasa ( and all others who posted to this thread ), Thank you for all your comments and help. Whether by meditation or just my everyday contemplation, I think I have begun to see the impermanence of life. I recognize many things that I do as reactions caused by craving or aversion, for example. But this leads to my next conundrum.. I have heard often that when a person starts meditating, "It will get worse before it gets better". I believe that through beginning to recognize why I react as I do, I have been getting very anxious, even scared at times, that I need to leave some familiar and "safe" behaviour patterns behind. But this anxiety has often caused me to fall back hard on these familiar patterns (eating too much or watching too much TV, for example). At times, my mind races with a million thoughts, and I feel on the verge of losing control. Can anyone relate to this? And can anyone help me with any advice on what to do? I have done some meditation: I did the 10-day Vipassana course taught by Goenka 5 months ago, and since then have been doing anapanna meditation infrequently. I am almost afraid to do more, for the reasons above. Thank you. Peace, Chris. 22919 From: monomuni Date: Mon Jun 16, 2003 5:54am Subject: Hidden Truths! Friends: How do Ignorance actually function? It hides & conceals: The Truth of misery The Truth of the cause of misery The Truth of the end of misery The Truth of the way to end misery The Truth about the past & the future The Truth about the specific causes of, The nature, characteristics & function of any past & future events thereby preventing penetration to the understanding that all these are constructed, conditioned & dependently arisen. As these absolute truths becomes hidden, the way out of samsara is obscured as nobody has a drive or reason to search for it. So we buzz around like a bee caught in a jar for some billion world cycles. Endlessly dying & reappearing. What a comic tragedy! Sincerely yours; Friendship is the GREATEST !! & the whole Motivation behind the entire Noble Life ... Samanera Samahita Cypress Hut, Gangamulla Bambarella, Tawalantenna 20838. Central Province. SRI LANKA. Email: monomuni@m... WWW: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Buddha-Direct : - ] -- A saying of the Buddha from http://metta.lk/ Just like a lotus, the disciple, by his wisdom, will shine among them that are ignorant, blind and unconverted. Random Dhammapada Verse 59 22920 From: monomuni Date: Mon Jun 16, 2003 5:47am Subject: The Confusion of Delusion !!! Friends: DELUSION There is no other single thing Which hinders humans By which they ramble on day & night as the delusion of not knowing. We rush forward and miss the essential point ... Blindly believing phenomena to be as they appear. Compulsively binding themselves again & again, they fall, burning like insects, into the flame. Some hankering public admiration, name, & fame, clinging to what are merely opinions, beliefs & views, they sink - in between - lacking firm foothold on the other shore, not yet having gained the certainty of direct experience, We humans are obsessed with the mere idea: “I am the doer” or “another is the Doer” … Thus constructing “a creator – a self” !!! we do not fully comprehend that this very construing is the agonizing dart itself ... While the one recognizing this false view - a priori – to be the dart, does not construe nor imagine any ‘agent’ neither as ‘self’ nor as ‘another’! Respectfully yours, Friendship is the GREATEST !! & the whole Motivation behind the entire Noble Life ... Samanera Samahita Cypress Hut, Gangamulla Bambarella, Tawalantenna 20838. Central Province. SRI LANKA. Email: monomuni@m... : - ] -- A saying of the Buddha from http://metta.lk/ Though much he recites the Sacred Texts, but acts not accordingly, that heedless man is like a cowherd who counts others' kine. He has no share in the fruits of the Holy life. Random Dhammapada Verse 19 22921 From: smallchap Date: Mon Jun 16, 2003 7:57am Subject: [dsg] Re: thina middha. Dear Nina and Sarah, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > Dear Sarah, > one remark in your post reminded me of something I learnt from A. Somporn > when at the foundation. > op 11-06-2003 09:07 schreef Sarah op sarahdhhk@y...: > > > An arahant may > > be tired physically and sleep, but no thina and middha. > N: He said, there may be middha but it is not kilesa. For the arahat middha > is not kilesa. > This is from the Co. to the Abhidh Sangaha, we could look it up, topics of > Dhamma. It was new to me. > Nina. Arahats do not sleep. Thina and middha are eradicated when one attains arahatship. Visuddhimagga XXII 71. smallchap 22922 From: Date: Mon Jun 16, 2003 4:22am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sabba Sutta contd;-) Hi, Sarah - In a message dated 6/16/03 5:07:27 AM Eastern Daylight Time, sarahdhhk@y... writes: > > Hi Howard &Victor, > > Glad to see you are both in some agreement at least on this thread;-) > > --- upasaka@a... wrote: > > The Sabba Sutta (from ATI) reads as follows: > > > >******************************************* > >"Monks, I will teach you the All. Listen &pay close attention. I will > >speak." "As you say, lord," the monks responded. The Blessed One said, > >"What is the > >All? Simply the eye &forms, ear &sounds, nose &aromas, tongue & > >flavors, > >body &tactile sensations, intellect &ideas. This, monks, is called the > >All. [1 > >*********************************************** > > > > I fail to see how this includes nibbana. Unless nibbana simply is > >"the > >all", but with the defilements absent, > ..... > Nibbana is included in dhammayatana, translated here as ‘ideas’. > Dhammayatana includes all realities not included in the other 11 ayatanas, > i.e cetasikas, subtle rupas and nibbana. It is part of the ‘all’ that the > Buddha taught. > ..... > H:>I do not see how one could > >justify > >seeing a "nibbana dhatu" as included here. As it stands, this listing of > >"the > >all" does not include a dhamma called "nibbana," and, moreover, this > >sutta denies > >the existence of any dhamma beyond this"all". > .... > That’s right - no other paramattha dhamma beyone this ‘all’. I’m sorry if > I’m being dense, but I have a hard time understanding the difficulty. > Perhaps it relates to earlier discussions about nibbana as object of > particular types of consciousness. I could see that perhaps the Nanananda > psychological theory might have a problem here and elsewhere. > ..... > > > This seems to me to put one in the position of either denying the > > > >existence of nibbana (untenable from a Buddhist perspective), or of > >identifying it > >with samsara-freed-of-defilements (a Mahayana perspective), or as seeing > >it > >not as a thing at all, but as a mere absence - the absence of defilement > >(also > >a Mahayana perspective, and that of many Theravadins as well). > ..... > I wouldn’t consider any of these positions to be accurate from the > Theravada text point-of-view. > > I’d be glad for any more assistance with understanding the difficulty with > what I’ve mentioned (and confirmed in other posts with comy detail). > > =================================== I'll let Thanissaro Bhikkhu reply. His note to the ATI rendering of the sutta is the following: ********* Note 1. The Commentary's treatment of this discourse is very peculiar. To begin with, it delineates three other "All's" in addition to the one defined here, one of them supposedly larger in scope than the one defined here: the Allness of the Buddha's omniscience (literally, All-knowingness). This, despite the fact that the discourse says that the description of such an all lies beyond the range of explanation. Secondly, the Commentary includes nibbana (unbinding) within the scope of the All described here -- as a dhamma, or object of the intellect -- even though there are many other discourses in the Canon specifically stating that nibbana lies beyond the range of the six senses and their objects. Sn V.6, for instance, indicates that a person who has attained nibbana has gone beyond all phenomena (sabbe dhamma), and therefore cannot be described. MN 49 discusses a "consciousness without feature" (viññanam anidassanam) that does not partake of the "Allness of the All." Furthermore, the following discourse (SN XXXV.24) says that the "All" is to be abandoned. At no point does the Canon say that nibbana is to be abandoned. Nibbana follows on cessation (nirodha), which is to be realized. Once nibbana is realized, there are no further tasks to be done. Thus it seems more this discourse's discussion of "All" is meant to limit the use of the word "all" throughout the Buddha's teachings to the six sense spheres and their objects. As the following discourse shows, this would also include the consciousness, contact, and feelings connected with the sense spheres and their objects. Nibbana would lie outside of the word, "all." This would fit in with another point made several times in the Canon: that dispassion is the highest of all dhammas (Iti 90), while the arahant has gone beyond even dispassion (Sn IV.6; Sn IV.10). This raises the question, if the word "all" does not include nibbana, does that mean that one may infer from the statement, "all phenomena are not-self" that nibbana is self? The answer is no. As AN IV.174 states, to even ask if there is anything remaining or not remaining (or both, or neither) after the cessation of the six sense spheres is to differentiate what is by nature undifferentiated (or to complicate the uncomplicated -- see the Introduction to MN 18). The range of differentiation goes only as far as the "All." Perceptions of self or not-self, which would count as differentiation, would not apply beyond the "All." When the cessation of the "All" is experienced, all differentiation is allayed. [Go back] ******************* To me, what he says here in the 2nd paragraph is most significant, particularly the part of it that reads as follows: <SN XXXV.24) says that the "All" is to be abandoned. At no point does the Canon say that nibbana is to be abandoned. Nibbana follows on cessation (nirodha), which is to be realized. Once nibbana is realized, there are no further tasks to be done.>> I personally think that to view nibbana as a mind object is to trivialize it, making it an object, separate, but set in relation with such dhammas as manovi~n~nana (sp?), and thereby simultaneously reifying it and lessening its unconditioned status. I understand nibbana as the complete absence of the three poisons. That absence, of course, when realized, radically changes everything. To me, treating nibbana as a mind-object is to both reify it and to put it on a level with mundane phenomena. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 22923 From: Jim Anderson Date: Mon Jun 16, 2003 8:26am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Dating of texts, to Jim. advice needed. Hi Sarah, I believe many of the passages found in the Puggalapa~n~natti can be traced back to the suttas. The simile of the mice can also be found at AN IV 107 (Muusikasutta -- A II 107-8). Note the resemblance of the Pali word 'muusika' (mouse) to the English 'mouse'. Four sets of the ninefold scheme also occur at Pugg IV.28 (pp. 62-3, see Human Types, pp. 86-7) found at AN IV.6 (A II 6f). For the ninefold scheme in the Vibhanga (p.294), see The Book of Analysis, p. 389, §724. Best wishes, Jim > Hi Howard, Jim & All, > > I can't resist quoting a passage from the Abhidhamma, > Pubbala-Pa~n~natti(Designation of Human Types), Div. of Human Types by > Four,9, which I know you'll both appreciate, mentioning as it does the > 9-fold scheme of teachings and also giving a good example of how the > Abhidhamma isn't always dry and difficult to appreciate, and sometimes > much closer to the Sutta style;-). > [...] 22924 From: buddhatrue Date: Mon Jun 16, 2003 8:52am Subject: Re: Present moment --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > _________ > James: Panna is a consequence of satipatthana, not a prerequisite. > ________ > I think this is partially right. The path of the development of > satipatthana needs wisdom from the outset Hi Robert K, Again, I disagree. The Buddha encouraged children and young people to become monks and begin the practice, without any prerequisites of them truly knowing what they were doing or why they were doing it. Panna is not a prerequisite to satipatthana. Metta, James 22925 From: yasalalaka Date: Mon Jun 16, 2003 9:54am Subject: Re: Present moment --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > > _________ > > James: Panna is a consequence of satipatthana, not a prerequisite. > > ________ > > I think this is partially right. The path of the development of > > satipatthana needs wisdom from the outset > > Hi Robert K, > > Again, I disagree. The Buddha encouraged children and young people > to become monks and begin the practice, without any prerequisites of > them truly knowing what they were doing or why they were doing it. > Panna is not a prerequisite to satipatthana. > > Metta, James _________________________________Yasa_______________________ RobertK Wisdom( panna) is not a prerequisite to mental development. The path begins with morality (sila) and ends in wisdom(panna). It is through panna that one understands the trilakkhana(anicca, dukkha, anatma) and breaks the fetters of samsara to attain Nibbana. The wisdom begins to grow through the gradual development of 18 vipassana nana in insight meditation. In meditating on the five aggregates separating them into nama and rupa arises the nama rupa pariccedha nana, then meditating on how nama rupa results through cause and effect arises the paccaya pariggaha nana, contemplating the nama rupa independently as khanda, ayatana or indriya, arises Sammassana nana etc. until the arising of the Nibbidanu passana nana, the development of aversion, seeing the arising and falling away, the unsatisfactoriness of , and attachment and aversion to all conceptual things, which would result in the arising of the eye of wisdom and understand the trilakkhana. You may observe that " who ever " sits cross-legged and meditate, has many things happening in his "unseen mind" With metta, Yasa 22926 From: nidive Date: Mon Jun 16, 2003 10:19am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sabba Sutta contd;-) Howard, < (SN XXXV.24) > says that the "All" is to be abandoned. At no point does > the Canon say that nibbana is to be abandoned. I would like to disagree on this point. Even nibbana is to be abandoned. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/majjhima/mn001.html The Tathagata "The Tathagata -- a worthy one, rightly self-awakened -- directly knows earth as earth. Directly knowing earth as earth, he does not conceive things about earth, does not conceive things in earth, does not conceive things coming out of earth, does not conceive earth as 'mine,' does not delight in earth. Why is that? Because the Tathagata has comprehended it to the end, I tell you. "He directly knows water as water... fire as fire... wind as wind... beings as beings... gods as gods... Pajapati as Pajapati... Brahma as Brahma... the luminous gods as luminous gods... the gods of refulgent glory as gods of refulgent glory... the gods of abundant fruit as the gods of abundant fruit... the Great Being as the Great Being... the dimension of the infinitude of space as the dimension of the infinitude of space... the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness as the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness... the dimension of nothingness as the dimension of nothingness... the dimension of neither-perception-nor-non-perception as the dimension of neither-perception-nor-non-perception... the seen as the seen... the heard as the heard... the sensed as the sensed... the cognized as the cognized... singleness as singleness... multiplicity as multiplicity.. . the All as the All... "He directly knows Unbinding as Unbinding. Directly knowing Unbinding as Unbinding, he does not conceive things about Unbinding, does not conceive things in Unbinding, does not conceive things coming out of Unbinding, does not conceive Unbinding as 'mine,' does not delight in Unbinding. Why is that? Because the Tathagata has comprehended it to the end, I tell you. "The Tathagata -- a worthy one, rightly self-awakened -- directly knows earth as earth. Directly knowing earth as earth, he does not conceive things about earth, does not conceive things in earth, does not conceive things coming out of earth, does not conceive earth as 'mine,' does not delight in earth. Why is that? Because he has known that delight is the root of suffering & stress, that from coming-into-being there is birth, and that for what has come into being there is aging & death. Therefore, with the total ending, fading away, cessation, letting go, relinquishment of craving, the Tathagata has totally awakened to the unexcelled right self-awakening, I tell you. "He directly knows water as water... the All as the All... "He directly knows Unbinding as Unbinding. Directly knowing Unbinding as Unbinding, he does not conceive things about Unbinding, does not conceive things in Unbinding, does not conceive things coming out of Unbinding, does not conceive Unbinding as 'mine,' does not delight in Unbinding. Why is that? Because he has known that delight is the root of suffering & stress, that from coming-into-being there is birth, and that for what has come into being there is aging & death. Therefore, with the total ending, fading away, cessation, letting go, relinquishment of craving, the Tathagata has totally awakened to the unexcelled right self-awakening, I tell you." That is what the Blessed One said. Displeased, the monks did not delight in the Blessed One's words. Swee Boon A person who delights in nibbana has not fully comprehended nibbana. A person who has not abandoned nibbana is still in passion with nibbana. The Tathagata had no passion even for nibbana. He had abandoned it altogether. 22927 From: Date: Mon Jun 16, 2003 7:55am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sabba Sutta contd;-) Hi, Swee Boon - In a message dated 6/16/03 1:23:51 PM Eastern Daylight Time, nidive@y... writes: > Howard, > > < >(html">SN XXXV.24) > >says that the "All" is to be abandoned. At no point does > >the Canon say that nibbana is to be abandoned. > > I would like to disagree on this point. > > Even nibbana is to be abandoned. > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/majjhima/mn001.html > > The Tathagata > > "The Tathagata -- a worthy one, rightly self-awakened -- directly > knows earth as earth. Directly knowing earth as earth, he does not > conceive things about earth, does not conceive things in earth, does > not conceive things coming out of earth, does not conceive earth as > 'mine,' does not delight in earth. Why is that? Because the Tathagata > has comprehended it to the end, I tell you. > > "He directly knows water as water... fire as fire... wind as wind... > beings as beings... gods as gods... Pajapati as Pajapati... Brahma as > Brahma... the luminous gods as luminous gods... the gods of refulgent > glory as gods of refulgent glory... the gods of abundant fruit as the > gods of abundant fruit... the Great Being as the Great Being... the > dimension of the infinitude of space as the dimension of the > infinitude of space... the dimension of the infinitude of > consciousness as the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness... > the dimension of nothingness as the dimension of nothingness... the > dimension of neither-perception-nor-non-perception as the dimension of > neither-perception-nor-non-perception... the seen as the seen... the > heard as the heard... the sensed as the sensed... the cognized as the > cognized... singleness as singleness... multiplicity as multiplicity.. > . the All as the All... > > "He directly knows Unbinding as Unbinding. Directly knowing Unbinding > as Unbinding, he does not conceive things about Unbinding, does not > conceive things in Unbinding, does not conceive things coming out of > Unbinding, does not conceive Unbinding as 'mine,' does not delight in > Unbinding. Why is that? Because the Tathagata has comprehended it to > the end, I tell you. > > "The Tathagata -- a worthy one, rightly self-awakened -- directly > knows earth as earth. Directly knowing earth as earth, he does not > conceive things about earth, does not conceive things in earth, does > not conceive things coming out of earth, does not conceive earth as > 'mine,' does not delight in earth. Why is that? Because he has known > that delight is the root of suffering &stress, that from > coming-into-being there is birth, and that for what has come into > being there is aging &death. Therefore, with the total ending, fading > away, cessation, letting go, relinquishment of craving, the Tathagata > has totally awakened to the unexcelled right self-awakening, I tell > you. > > "He directly knows water as water... the All as the All... > > "He directly knows Unbinding as Unbinding. Directly knowing Unbinding > as Unbinding, he does not conceive things about Unbinding, does not > conceive things in Unbinding, does not conceive things coming out of > Unbinding, does not conceive Unbinding as 'mine,' does not delight in > Unbinding. Why is that? Because he has known that delight is the root > of suffering &stress, that from coming-into-being there is birth, and > that for what has come into being there is aging &death. Therefore, > with the total ending, fading away, cessation, letting go, > relinquishment of craving, the Tathagata has totally awakened to the > unexcelled right self-awakening, I tell you." > > That is what the Blessed One said. Displeased, the monks did not > delight in the Blessed One's words. > > Swee Boon > > A person who delights in nibbana has not fully comprehended nibbana. > A person who has not abandoned nibbana is still in passion with > nibbana. > > The Tathagata had no passion even for nibbana. He had abandoned it > altogether. > > ============================== Depends on what one means by 'abandoning'. I have taken it to mean giving up something as not worthwhile. When nibbana is realized, of course there are no opinions or conceivings about it to be made, nor is there any craving or attachment. There is *abiding* in nibbana, abiding in that final and safe haven, and, to me, that is not an abandoning of it, nor should it be abandoned. Again - it all depends on what one means by 'abandon'. One should, of course, give up craving for nibbana - but that 'should' is a tricky word. There is no effective willing to give up craving for nibbana. We do crave it. But when it is realized, all craving, hence all suffering, will be gone. With metta, Howard With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 22928 From: phamdluan2000 Date: Mon Jun 16, 2003 1:18pm Subject: Re: Present moment Dear Yasa, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "yasalalaka" wrote: Wisdom( panna) is not a prerequisite to mental development. The path begins with morality (sila) and ends in wisdom(panna). It is through panna that one understands the trilakkhana(anicca, dukkha, anatma) and breaks the fetters of samsara to attain Nibbana. KKT: But the Noble Eightfold Path begins with Right View. To have Right View, one should have Panna as prerequisite. What do you think? Peace, KKT 22929 From: christine_forsyth Date: Mon Jun 16, 2003 1:30pm Subject: Re: Present moment Hi KKT, I wonder if it can have something to do with the two paths - the lokiya (mundane) and the lokuttara (supermundane)? Nyanatiloka's description of Magga (path) is interesting. http://www.budsas.org/ebud/bud-dict/dic3_m.htm metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "phamdluan2000" wrote: > Dear Yasa, > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "yasalalaka" > wrote: > > > Wisdom( panna) is not a prerequisite to mental development. The path > begins with morality (sila) and ends in wisdom(panna). It is > through panna that one understands the trilakkhana(anicca, dukkha, > anatma) and breaks the fetters of samsara to attain Nibbana. > > > > > KKT: But the Noble Eightfold Path > begins with Right View. > > To have Right View, one should > have Panna as prerequisite. > > What do you think? > > > Peace, > > > KKT 22930 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Mon Jun 16, 2003 2:42pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Hidden Truths! Dear Samanera Samahita, I wonder if you would expand on a statement at the end of your email: > Friendship is the GREATEST !! > & the whole Motivation behind > the entire Noble Life ... I am in agreement that Metta is great, but I don't get the point about it being the whole motivation behind th eentire noble life. kom > -----Original Message----- > From: monomuni [mailto:monomuni@m...] > Sent: Monday, June 16, 2003 5:54 AM > To: Buddha-Direct@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [dsg] Hidden Truths! > > > > Friends: > 22931 From: Date: Mon Jun 16, 2003 11:03am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Present moment Hi, KKT - In a message dated 6/16/03 4:24:06 PM Eastern Daylight Time, phamdluan@a... writes: > > Dear Yasa, > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "yasalalaka" > wrote: > > > Wisdom( panna) is not a prerequisite to mental development. The path > begins with morality (sila) and ends in wisdom(panna). It is > through panna that one understands the trilakkhana(anicca, dukkha, > anatma) and breaks the fetters of samsara to attain Nibbana. > > > > > KKT: But the Noble Eightfold Path > begins with Right View. > > To have Right View, one should > have Panna as prerequisite. > > What do you think? ----------------------------------------------------- Howard: And it ends with Right Concentration. So is Right Concentration the culmination? Obviously not. Thus it is not at all certain by such a line of reasoning that the path begins with Right View. ----------------------------------------------------- > > > Peace, > > > KKT > ============================= With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 22932 From: gazita2002 Date: Mon Jun 16, 2003 3:19pm Subject: Re: The Internet "sutra" - Please comment (final? version) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "yu_zhonghao" wrote: > Hi Rob M, > > My comment is that with this so-called "sutra", you are putting > words in the Buddha's mouth. And what is worse, you are fabricating > what the Buddha would say with your own views, not the teaching of > the Buddha. > > Peace, > Victor > Hello Rob M. Hmmmmm! I tend to agree with Victor here. Interesting and quite creative, but I'm not sure what you are attempting here. Maybe I've missed something from earlier posts, I am a bit of a lurker! There was some discussion previously about originality of some of the current texts, and I'm wondering if your re-wording will create more misunderstanding. The last comment about nama, rupa and niyama, somehow didn't feel right altho I think I understand what you are saying. But for me, it sounded that there was more than nama and rupa, a governing body. Having, in the past, been profundly influenced by Catholics, I couldn't help thinking of a something ruling over nama and rupa. I think we have to be very careful when we attempt a 'modernization' of an ancient text. I think we have to have lots of Panna to do this - anyway, I'll be interested to read what others have to say on this matter. Patience, courage and good cheer, Azita 22933 From: Date: Mon Jun 16, 2003 11:24am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Present moment Hi Howard and KKT There is at least one Sutta (and I think a few) where the Buddha does indeed point out a linear connection between each Path factor...Right View leads to Right Thought, etc. as KKT suggests. But as Howard points out, Right Concentration is not the goal. I think of the Noble 8 Fold Path as like a "genetic code." Imagine a 1000 spiral coil leading from ignorance to arahatship. Each spiral contains a full set of the 8 Fold Path and each spiral leads up to the next. My vision of this hypothetical 1000 spirals is that the 8 factors are present in each spiral and that the bottom 3rd of these 1000 spirals are morality oriented, the middle 3rd concentration oriented, and the top 3rd wisdom oriented. Yet there is overlap within each Factor, within each spiral, and within the entire 1000. Hope that was "followable." TG In a message dated 6/16/2003 3:08:07 PM Pacific Daylight Time, upasaka@a... writes: > Howard: > And it ends with Right Concentration. So is Right Concentration the > culmination? Obviously not. Thus it is not at all certain by such a line of > reasoning that the path begins with Right View. > 22934 From: Date: Mon Jun 16, 2003 11:50am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Present moment Hi, TG - In a message dated 6/16/03 6:27:28 PM Eastern Daylight Time, TGrand458@a... writes: > Hi Howard and KKT > > There is at least one Sutta (and I think a few) where the Buddha does indeed > > point out a linear connection between each Path factor...Right View leads to > > Right Thought, etc. as KKT suggests. But as Howard points out, Right > Concentration is not the goal. > > I think of the Noble 8 Fold Path as like a "genetic code." Imagine a 1000 > spiral coil leading from ignorance to arahatship. Each spiral contains a > full > set of the 8 Fold Path and each spiral leads up to the next. > > My vision of this hypothetical 1000 spirals is that the 8 factors are > present > in each spiral and that the bottom 3rd of these 1000 spirals are morality > oriented, the middle 3rd concentration oriented, and the top 3rd wisdom > oriented. > Yet there is overlap within each Factor, within each spiral, and within the > entire 1000. > > Hope that was "followable." TG > ========================== I agree with the "spiral simile". In fact, Jon and I had a discussion about that at one point which included my posting some suttas from the Anguttara Nikaya to back up that way of looking at the matter. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 22935 From: nidive Date: Mon Jun 16, 2003 5:24pm Subject: Re: Sabba Sutta contd;-) Howard, > Depends on what one means by 'abandoning'. I have taken it to mean > giving up something as not worthwhile. It is noted that the Notes in Samyutta Nikaya XXXV.24 Pahanaya Sutta For Abandoning states that: 1. To abandon the eye, etc., here means to abandon passion and desire for these things. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn35-024.html The Buddha delivers the same message in the sutta that I quoted: Majjhima Nikaya 1 Mulapariyaya Sutta The Root Sequence. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/majjhima/mn001.html Swee Boon 22936 From: Andrew Date: Mon Jun 16, 2003 6:59pm Subject: Re: The Internet "sutra" - Please comment (final? version) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "yu_zhonghao" wrote: > Hi Rob M, > > My comment is that with this so-called "sutra", you are putting > words in the Buddha's mouth. And what is worse, you are fabricating > what the Buddha would say with your own views, not the teaching of > the Buddha. > > Peace, > Victor > Hi RobM I think Victor makes 2 points that are worth considering. Firstly, are you "putting words in the Buddha's mouth"? I don't think it fair to say that you are given that, right from the start, you made it crystal clear that this was a work of fiction based on your level of understanding. Had you, for example, claimed to have had a vision from Lord Buddha giving you this "sutra", then that would be a totally different thing! As it is, you have been completely honest. Secondly, are you corrupting the Dhamma with your own views? Surely this caution applies to all worldlings who make an attempt to explain the Dhamma to others? Whether the "internet sutra" is true to the Dhamma or not is something each one of us will have to decide. And we do so in the full knowledge that it is not part of the Tipitika but was composed by a diligent and well-meaning guy in an endeavour to explain the Dhamma (as he understands it) to interested others. I wish I had your energy, RobM. Don't lose it! With metta Andrew 22937 From: Date: Mon Jun 16, 2003 3:04pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sabba Sutta contd;-) Hi, Swee Boon - In a message dated 6/16/03 8:26:50 PM Eastern Daylight Time, nidive@y... writes: > > Howard, > > >Depends on what one means by 'abandoning'. I have taken it to mean > >giving up something as not worthwhile. > > It is noted that the Notes in Samyutta Nikaya XXXV.24 Pahanaya Sutta > For Abandoning states that: > > 1. To abandon the eye, etc., here means to abandon passion and desire > for these things. > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn35-024.html > > The Buddha delivers the same message in the sutta that I quoted: > Majjhima Nikaya 1 Mulapariyaya Sutta The Root Sequence. > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/majjhima/mn001.html > > Swee Boon > ============================ Well, then, in this sense we are in agreement. Passion and desire for anything constitutes suffering, and should be abandoned. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 22938 From: Sarah Date: Tue Jun 17, 2003 1:04am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: thina middha. Hi Smallchap, --- smallchap wrote: > > N: He said, there may be middha but it is not kilesa. For the > arahat middha > > is not kilesa. > > This is from the Co. to the Abhidh Sangaha, ..... Sc:> Arahats do not sleep. Thina and middha are eradicated when one > attains arahatship. Visuddhimagga XXII 71. ..... Sarah: I was quite surprised by the comment about middha too - I believe it relates to an argument that middha is/can relate to rupa (material). In the Cmy to Ab.Sang referred to by Nina above, there is a discussion about it in Ch 2, mentalities, pp 60-61. In summary, middha as being material is certainly rejected with regard to the hindrances. It does mention, “of torpor that is material and immaterial, it is the immaterial that is meant here...”. Perhaps it can refer to rupas in other contexts, I’m not sure, but Vism XIV,71 we read: “matter as torpor is rejected as non-existent by the words; ‘Surely thou art a sage enlightened, there are no hindrances in thee’ (Sn 541) In the same section in the cmy Nina refers to, it quotes: “As it has been said that it arises in the formless, its state is not material. However, the sleep of the one who has destroyed the taints is due to fatigue of the body.” I think there are many references to arahants sleeping, but of course no kilesa and no dreams. Always good to read your input here. Metta, Sarah ===== 22939 From: Sarah Date: Tue Jun 17, 2003 1:51am Subject: Re: [dsg] cessation of rebirth & kammic activities Hi PC, Thank you so much for telling us more about yourself and about your Sunday teaching. That’s great that you know RobM. We all appreciate his energy and keen interest in the Dhamma and Abhidhamma. > As a parttime sunday dhamma school teacher, for adults with little or no > dhamma knowledge, I use to have a lots of questions from the floor that > I must confess that I am not good enough to answer.Altough I have a > small personal library to refer, but the problem is that I don't know > which chapter to refer to.This is especially true when questions like > Abhidhamma is concerned, worse still it is my weak area. .... Please don’t be afraid of making errors here or asking basic questions and sharing what you know.... It’s not an academic list and we’re just a group of friends trying to help and support each other. We all make mistakes and learn that way too. We can even learn from the conceit that minds making mistakes;-) For Abhidhamma reference, you may find some of Nina VanGorkom’s books on line useful for reference, esp. Abhidhamma in Daily Life, Cetasikas, Rupas, Conditions at: http://www.vipassana.info/ http://www.abhidhamma.org/ http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Also Sujin Boriharnwanaket’s book, Survey of Paramattha Dhammas Also, Rob M’s notes and slides are in the files section of DSG: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/ If you don’t have a copy of B.Bodhi’s transl and notes of A Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma (Abhidhammattha Sangaha), it would be useful for you. Also, a very slim, but useful guide is Nyantiloka’s ‘Guide through the Abhidhamma Pitaka’. These are available from the Buddhist Publication Society. Another book, Buddha Abhidhamma Ultimate Science by Dr Mehm Tin Mon is also very clearly presented (RobM gave us a copy). Finally, if use use the search function at the escribe back-up for DSG for any specific terms, you’ll have access to past discussions. http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/ You may also like to look at some of the past DSG posts under specific topics at: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/Useful_Posts Of the Abhidhamma texts themselves (in English), the ones I find most useful as reference are the commentaries to the first two books, i.e The Atthasalini (The Expositor) and the Sammohavinodani (Dispeller of Delusion), both pub. by the Pali Text Society and not on line. Narada’s Guide to Conditional Relations, an introduction to the Patthana, is also very helpful. After these, I refer to the Dhammasangani and Vibhanga, the first two books of the Abhidhamma, from time to time and occasionally only to the last books of the Abhidhamma which are way over my head;-) Of course other texts, such as the Visuddhimagga, are also packed full of Abhidhamma and so are the suttas and commentaries too;-) Finally, I’m sure one of the most used and best loved resources by us all here is Nyantiloka’s dictionary: http://www.palikanon.com/english/wtb/dic_idx.html We look forward to hearing plenty from you, PC. I can tell you’re very modest about your knowledge and interest. With metta, Sarah ===== 22940 From: Sarah Date: Tue Jun 17, 2003 3:20am Subject: Re: [dsg] importance of Meditation Hi Dave, S: Sorry for the delay again. You ask difficult, but important questions, so sometimes when I just have a little time, I pick up the more technical ones first;-) I also tend to give newcomers priority and you’re no longer a newcomer;-);-) --- dwlemen wrote: > Sarah, > DAVE: What then does really exist? Does the universe actually exist > on its own, or only because we are in it? I guess it sounds like a > different version of the "if a tree falls in a forest an no one is > there to hear it, does it make a sound" riddle. If no one is there, > does the tree exist? .... S: To all intents and purposes, all that exists is what can be known at this very moment, hence the discussions about ‘the all’ relating to the mental and physical phenomena arising and falling away now. So, taking ‘the universe’ as an example, we can find out through the development of awareness and understanding, that when there is an idea of ‘universe’, there is just a moment of thinking and then the universe is gone. So, while it’s true that there are many other mental and physical phenomena arising and falling away regardless, all that ‘exists’ in the sense that it can be known directly, is that which appears now to the senses or the mind consciousness. By developing awareness directly (the usual missing ingredient), these phenomena can be known as namas and rupas. ..... > If not, How is it that each individual's basic perception matches? I > know that we can lump extra stuff onto an object, but the basic > existence of the object is still there E.g. the moon. It can be a > god, a piece of cheese, a section of the Earth's inner core, or a > rememberace of a lost love, but it's there none the less. ..... S: Difficult questions as I said! Let’s take the moon. When we look at it, what’ s seen? Visible object. If we step on it, what’s felt? Hardness. It isn’t that all visible objects are uniform in nature (apart from being visible objects). If that were so, nothing would ever be identified and we couldn’t survive. So if we look at the moon and there’s awareness, there’s no idea of it being a thing or a moon, but what is seen and the particular visible appearance are just as they’ve always been and immediately there are conditions to know it as a moon, even for a baby or animal without any names or developed associations. If someone else looks at the moon at the same time, the visible object won’t be the same, but there will be enough in common in ‘what is seen’ for similar concepts and identifications to be made. ..... > DAVE: I am asking "why" I guess. I agree we are here discussing the > teachings because we both feel there are truths. One thing I've > always liked about Buddhism is that it does not ask for blind faith > but asks for us to find out for ourselves and then accept/reject > accordingly. I suppose that is what we are doing here. .... S: Like you, this has always been very important for me and initially was THE reason for my interest after a background in Christianity and then psychology. In the beginning, as a result, I tended to reject any parts of the teachings that weren’t immediately verifiable. However, what I’ve found has happened, without any intention for it to be so, is that as aspects get tested out and proved to be correct, more confidence (faith?) develops in other aspects as being correct at an intellectual level at least. It’s a wonderful relief for me now to be able to fully trust what I read in all the Pali texts and commentaries. I think that any such confidence has to develop slowly, however, and certainly not because anyone else says anything is so. Perhaps it’s like the way a child’s trust in a teacher develops. Sometimes teenagers in particular really like to test one out, but if what one says and does is consistent and honest and worthwhile, slowly they begin to take more information on ‘trust’. ..... > DAVE: I'm still not sure what you mean by "reality." Awareness > of "reality" would necessitate an awarer, which would imply the > imposition of perception upon "reality" (how's that for a sentence! > My philosophy prof would be proud!). What I'm trying to say is; are > we talking about phyics are psychology, as such. ..... S: No ‘awarer’, just sati, a mental factor which performs it’s function of being aware as it arises momentarily with a citta, and then gone. It can only be aware of a nama or rupa, not a concept and different from thinking. ..... > > I am reminded of my computer here at my office. Right now, I've got > my email, a few web browsers, an MP3 player, and 2 different > compilers running. My impression is that all these things run at the > same time, ..... ..... > sort of how I see our awareness. I'm thinking about what to write, > so I'm not really listening to my music, although I am hearing it. ..... S: I can see you’d get on well with RobM with your analogies - basically, different moments as you suggested in a snipped part. It seems it’s all happening at the same time, but hearing and listening (paying attention) and thinking don’t arise at the same moment. When there’s a moment of awareness of one reality, such as hearing or sound, it’s clear that there’s no other impingement or idea associated with it. ..... > DAVE: So, from reading this, it sounds more like "psychology" > than "physics." It's not whether the moon is "real" but the means > by which we assimilate that various inputs that allow us to > experience it... ..... S: hmmm.... I prefer to just consider the various phenomena of the 6 ‘worlds’. No self to ‘assimilate’ or ‘experience’ at all. ..... > DAVE: I suppose at this point, I'd say that I find the discussion > interesting, but not necissarily vital. From what I understand from > the tapes, proper understanding is needed before proper awareness can > occur, but, I'd also assumed that, since, as you say, there is no > gardener, if I just did my meditations and followed the Precepts, > that, as a truth, the proper understanding would emerge. Does that > make any sense? ..... S: Not really;-) It sounds like wishful thinking when I hear that ‘proper understanding’ will just emerge. I think there has to be some careful considering about realities as you’re doing here. If there is some right reflection that there is just the seeing and visible object rather than an ‘I’ who sees ‘a moon’ and clear comprehending of this, it can be a condition for awareness to be aware of the characteristic of ‘seeing’ or ‘visible object’. This is the way, I believe, that direct understanding or panna develops which really begins to know these various phenomena. Vipassana meditation refers to the developed panna. ..... > DAVE: Yes, your comments do make sense. I can't say that I agree > with them 100%, but I honestly can't really say why... a > hunch/intuition? Clinging to the concept that a good Buddhist must > meditate? Who knows! ..... S: So I’d say - go ahead, test out and check what works and what makes sense to you. Find out for yourself what makes ‘a good Buddhist’;-) I wouldn’t wish anyone else to copy my (or anyone else’s) daily routine as I think that would not be ‘right’. Honestly, Dave, I think wrong practice can creep in very easily whether it is by sitting cross-legged in order to have awareness arise or by opening an Abhidhamma textbook for that purpose. Awareness has to be aware of the various mental states and other phenomena involved at any of these times too. ..... > DAVE: > > One quick last question for you... Can you recommend a place to view > or a book to buy that would be a good, English translation fo the > original Pali texts? Perhaps I'd be in a better position to > understand what the Buddha said in regards to Meditation if I could > read them myself (I know reading in Pali would be better but... baby > steps!) ..... S: I fully agree with Christine’s recommended texts. On-line, there are many links on the home-page. Any of the translations on RobK’s websites would be the best available I’m sure (I just gave the links in my last post). If you just want to buy one small book of translations, B.Bodhi’s ‘Numerical Discourses of the Buddha’ is widely available, inexpensive and easy reading. Then I’d recommend getting his translations of Samyutta Nikaya (Kindred Sayings) which I’m discussing sections of with Victor and Howard and all the others Chris mentioned. I really think it is the careful considering rather than the quantity that counts, however. It may seem that I read a lot, but it’s not so at all. Some of the texts (or earlier versions) I’ve had for a long time. I made a note from a tape I listened to the other day. K.Sujin was stressing ‘one’s own considering’ - ‘just one word can condition more and more understanding, otherwise, it’s the other’s understanding.’ She goes on to mention that the understanding is for ‘the eradication, the elimination of ignorance’. .... > Thanks, as always, for your taking all this time to go on with me > about all this. I do appreciate it. ..... Some discussions like this one are much easier ‘live’, I think and I’m not sure how helpful my comments are, but it’s a pleasure all the same. Qu: What are the realities at this moment? How can awareness be aware of them? Would it be easier for awareness of them to arise if you were sitting somewhere else in another position? Why? Metta, Sarah ===== 22941 From: buddhatrue Date: Tue Jun 17, 2003 3:26am Subject: Re: Present moment --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "phamdluan2000" wrote: > Dear Yasa, > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "yasalalaka" > wrote: > > > Wisdom( panna) is not a prerequisite to mental development. The path > begins with morality (sila) and ends in wisdom(panna). It is > through panna that one understands the trilakkhana(anicca, dukkha, > anatma) and breaks the fetters of samsara to attain Nibbana. > > > > > KKT: But the Noble Eightfold Path > begins with Right View. > > To have Right View, one should > have Panna as prerequisite. > > What do you think? > > > Peace, > > > KKT Hi Victor, I was going to wait for Yasa to answer, but others have jumped in so I thought I would also. The Noble Eightfold Path isn't sequential, that is why it is called the Eightfold Path; otherwise it would be the Noble Eightstep Path. Not only that but I don't believe that `Right View' is the same thing as Panna. Many in this group seem to use that word for just about anything from basic understanding/knowledge to full blown enlightenment. Panna should only be used to describe the highest wisdom, when the Four Noble Truths are known intimately, cognitively, and intuitively. It doesn't require enlightenment, but it is a far sight more than just knowing the basics. Right View is basically just knowing the basics. It is just understanding the law of karma…that we are all heirs to our deeds. On a supramundane level, it would be knowing the law of karma intuitively, but that still isn't panna. If you have a different understanding, please share. Metta, James 22942 From: monomuni Date: Sun Jun 15, 2003 5:25am Subject: Seeing Freedom! Friends: Seeing all constructions are transient one ceases perception of permanence Seeing all constructions are painful one ceases perception of pleasure Seeing all constructions are impersonal one ceases perception of I-Mine-Self Disillusioned one becomes disgusted. Disgusted one's greed fades away. Not taking anything up one ceases origination & initiation. Relinquishing one ceases clinging. Letting go of mental clinging one is freed. Reference: Path of Discrimination I (296) Patisambhidamagga I [58] Sincerely yours, : - ] -- A saying of the Buddha from http://metta.lk/ Of bones is (this) city made, plastered with flesh and blood. Herein are stored decay, death, conceit, and detraction. Random Dhammapada Verse 150 22943 From: bodhi2500 Date: Tue Jun 17, 2003 4:36am Subject: Somanassindriya Hi Just a quick question on the joy faculty/somanassindriya. In the Patisambhidamagga(p.118) it has: At the moment of stream-entry path the I-shall-come-to-know-the-unknown faculty is equipped with delight by the joy faculty... At the moment of stream-entry path all Dhammas born (at that moment)...are supramundane. In the Dispeller of delusion(p.40) it has: The joy faculty, having sixth as its basis or having no basis, is of three planes. What would be the reason that the DoD has the joy faculty as only 3 planes while it seems the Patisambhidamagga has it as 4 planes? Thanks Steve 22944 From: rahula_80 Date: Tue Jun 17, 2003 5:38am Subject: Questions Here are some questions my friend asked me. I would appreciate if you could help him. 1. Can we achieve nibbana in heaven? (Can gods attain Nibbana?) >2.I have known about about 5 precepts but I find it hard to practise.Is it a bad kamma to kill for self defence ,hygienic purposes or as food to certain animals.For example,I kill rats,lizards and insects to keep my house clean as they can bring diseases.Same to killing thicks to prevent them from harming my dogs and catching worms to feed my fish.Is it a bad kamma to spray pesticides on crops or kill the pests with other methods.How to practise 5 precepts when we need to kill certain times. 3.same to telling lies.We know that we sometimes need to tell lies to help people such as to protect secret or even lives. Thanks, Rahula 22945 From: Charles Clifford Date: Tue Jun 17, 2003 6:55am Subject: RE: [dsg] Questions Rahula, Karma is accumulated through the commission of volitional acts. For an act to be a volitional act, the party must act with intention. The primary test of whether a given act will bring negative or positive karma to the person committing the act is that party's intention behind the act. In that the intention behind an act is only truly known to the party committing the act, that person alone has knowledge of the true intention behind their act. The contexts in which one can act with positive intentions and still not produce negative consequences for some other being is extremely rare. And, even acts committed with negative intentions can still produce positive consequences for some other being, e.g., by witnessing an senseless act of violence we can be motivated to liberating ourselves from such tendencies. Metta, Chuck -----Original Message----- From: rahula_80 [mailto:rahula_80@y...] Sent: Tuesday, June 17, 2003 8:39 AM To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Subject: [dsg] Questions Here are some questions my friend asked me. I would appreciate if you could help him. 1. Can we achieve nibbana in heaven? (Can gods attain Nibbana?) >2.I have known about about 5 precepts but I find it hard to practise.Is it a bad kamma to kill for self defence ,hygienic purposes or as food to certain animals.For example,I kill rats,lizards and insects to keep my house clean as they can bring diseases.Same to killing thicks to prevent them from harming my dogs and catching worms to feed my fish.Is it a bad kamma to spray pesticides on crops or kill the pests with other methods.How to practise 5 precepts when we need to kill certain times. 3.same to telling lies.We know that we sometimes need to tell lies to help people such as to protect secret or even lives. Thanks, Rahula 22946 From: buddhatrue Date: Tue Jun 17, 2003 6:56am Subject: Re: Questions --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rahula_80" wrote: > Here are some questions my friend asked me. I would appreciate if you > could help him. > > 1. Can we achieve nibbana in heaven? (Can gods attain Nibbana?) Hi Rahula, I will answer your first question.. Yes, according to the Lord Buddha, devas can attain nibbana; but being a human, or at least a human prior to rebirth in a deva realm, creates the greatest chance for enlightenment: "The bhikkhuni Nanda, Ananda, through the destruction of the five lower fetters (that bind beings to the world of the senses), has arisen spontaneously (among the Suddhavasa deities) and will come to final cessation in that very place, not liable to return from that world. … "The layman Kakudha, Ananda, through the destruction of the five lower fetters (that bind beings to the world of the senses), has arisen spontaneously (among the Suddhavasa deities), and will come to final cessation in that very place, not liable to return from that world. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/digha/dn16.html Metta, James 22947 From: m. nease Date: Tue Jun 17, 2003 8:45am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Present moment Dear Luan and Howard, ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Monday, June 16, 2003 3:03 PM Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Present moment > > KKT: But the Noble Eightfold Path > > begins with Right View. > > > > To have Right View, one should > > have Panna as prerequisite. > > > > What do you think? > ----------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > And it ends with Right Concentration. So is Right Concentration the > culmination? Obviously not. Thus it is not at all certain by such a line of > reasoning that the path begins with Right View. > ----------------------------------------------------- I'm inclined to the view that the right path factors arise simultaneously--that is that when, say, right concentration arises, so do right understanding, right thought, right effort and right mindfulness (and right speech, right action or right livelihood on occasion). (Of course the same would be true placing any of the other factors at the beginning in place of right concentration). I'm speaking of these in the sense of mental factors, not in the more conventional sense by which 'the eightfold path' is often meant. As I understand it, though, having heard (and understood) the Buddhadhamma is a prerequisite to this arising--we can't figure out paticcasamuppaada for ourselves. So I do think it's fair to say that some degree of understanding--conventional understanding, that is, not the right path factor--is a necessary prerequisite to the arising of any or all of the right path factors (of course the wrong path factors arise and subside all the time!). What do you think? mike p.s. An opposing view is that the path is lurking there beneath the surface all the time and that we only need to 'let go' (of, say, conceptual thinking, 'discrimination', evil, unskilled states etc.) to realize it. I used to think this way but not for a long time... 22948 From: yasalalaka Date: Tue Jun 17, 2003 7:46am Subject: Re: Present moment --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "phamdluan2000" > wrote: > > Dear Yasa, > > > > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "yasalalaka" > > wrote: > > > > > > Wisdom( panna) is not a prerequisite to mental development. The > path > > begins with morality (sila) and ends in wisdom(panna). It is > > through panna that one understands the trilakkhana(anicca, dukkha, > > anatma) and breaks the fetters of samsara to attain Nibbana. > > > > > > > > > > KKT: But the Noble Eightfold Path > > begins with Right View. > > > > To have Right View, one should > > have Panna as prerequisite. > > > > What do you think? > > > > > > Peace, > > > > > > KKT > > Hi Victor, > > I was going to wait for Yasa to answer, but others have jumped in so > I thought I would also. The Noble Eightfold Path isn't sequential, > that is why it is called the Eightfold Path; otherwise it would be > the Noble Eightstep Path. Not only that but I don't believe > that `Right View' is the same thing as Panna. Many in this group > seem to use that word for just about anything from basic > understanding/knowledge to full blown enlightenment. Panna should > only be used to describe the highest wisdom, when the Four Noble > Truths are known intimately, cognitively, and intuitively. It > doesn't require enlightenment, but it is a far sight more than just > knowing the basics. Right View is basically just knowing the > basics. It is just understanding the law of karma…that we are all > heirs to our deeds. On a supramundane level, it would be knowing the > law of karma intuitively, but that still isn't panna. If you have a > different understanding, please share. > > Metta, James _______________________________Yasa______________________ To: All and Larry, who has doubts about Nibbana. The Buddha has explained the path out of samsara to attain Nibbana, but due to our ignorance (avijja) we are unable to see it. We may even have a Masters Degree from a renown University, but yet we continue to suffer in Samsara , as a result of our ignorance (avijja),to understand the reality of lobha, dosa, moha. The Buddha has not discriminated in his teaching by giving discourses, with its emphasis on meditation to attain Nibbana for " the ordinary run of the mill" people, and Abhidhamma for an educated elite. Panna is not necessary to understand the eightfold path, and follow it according to its division into Sila, Samadhi, Panna. It is not symbiotic, and has to be followed in its order, without missing one or the other. This is not complicated to understand, with an ordinary man's intelligence. I agree with James, the word "panna" is made banal, and has lost its true meaning. We may perhaps put it this way, that"wisdom" has two meanings, one is just understanding correctly, and the other, the penetrative understanding, where a deep concentration is necessary. But for deep concentration, a certain discipline and a method, is of primary importance. It is certainly not by," living the moment, seeing the rising and falling away of thoughts, any time any where", even while running to catch the train ! Lord Buddha in his great compassion, has given us all the necessary instructions in his discourses -the Suttas. If we leave that to,"the beings of lesser understanding", and take to Abhidhamma to find a more intellectual practice of Dhamma, we will be up the wrong tree. From their the perspective below will be different and the path that leads to Nibbana ,will be hidden from the view. Therefore it is better to come down from that unsafe perch, and re-evaluate Bhavana. It is after all , not what others say about dhamma that counts , but how you see it yourself. In that respect, I refer you to Kalama Sutta, In which ,the people from a village came to Buddha, and said," Lord, different teachers come to our village, and each one speaks of his philosophy, telling us that his teaching is the correct teaching. We are confused and perplexed Lord, tell us which teaching to follow". And the Lord Buddha said: " Don't go by reports, by legends, by traditions, by scripture, by logical conjecture, by inference, by analogies, by agreement through pondering views, by probability, or by the thought, "This contemplative is our teacher." When you know for yourselves that, "These qualities are skilful; these qualities are blameless; these qualities are praised by the wise; these qualities, when adopted & carried out, lead to welfare & to happiness" -- then you should enter & remain in them." Thus was it said. With metta, Yasa. 22949 From: Date: Tue Jun 17, 2003 7:05am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Present moment Hi, Mike - In a message dated 6/17/03 11:48:00 AM Eastern Daylight Time, mlnease@z... writes: > I'm inclined to the view that the right path factors arise > simultaneously--that is that when, say, right concentration arises, so do > right understanding, right thought, right effort and right mindfulness (and > right speech, right action or right livelihood on occasion). > ---------------------------------------------------- Howard: Well, if one is taking Right Concentration to mean concentration supported by all the other path factors - one definition in the suttas, then, yes, but if it means the 1st four jhanas - another definition in the suttas(!), then no. Also, I think that Right Livelihood, Right Speech, and Right Action are problematical for this view. ---------------------------------------------------- (Of course> > the same would be true placing any of the other factors at the beginning in > place of right concentration). I'm speaking of these in the sense of mental > factors, not in the more conventional sense by which 'the eightfold path' is > often meant. As I understand it, though, having heard (and understood) the > Buddhadhamma is a prerequisite to this arising--we can't figure out > paticcasamuppaada for ourselves. So I do think it's fair to say that some > degree of understanding--conventional understanding, that is, not the right > path factor--is a necessary prerequisite to the arising of any or all of the > right path factors (of course the wrong path factors arise and subside all > the time!). What do you think? > > mike > > p.s. An opposing view is that the path is lurking there beneath the surface > all the time and that we only need to 'let go' (of, say, conceptual > thinking, 'discrimination', evil, unskilled states etc.) to realize it. I > used to think this way but not for a long time... > > > ========================= With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 22950 From: rjkjp1 Date: Tue Jun 17, 2003 1:19pm Subject: Sabba Sutta Howard,Yasa, Swee boon, , Suan sarah, Victor In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: >]Dear Howard, Yasa, Victor, Swee boon, sarah, Suan and all, This is an interesting discussion about nibbana. Howard you quoted Venerable Thanissaro ""1. The Commentary's treatment of this discourse is very peculiar. To begin with, it delineates three other "All's" in addition to the one defined here, one of them supposedly larger in scope than the one defined here…….. Secondly, the Commentary includes nibbana (unbinding) within the scope of the All described here -- as a dhamma, or object of the intellect -- even though there are many other discourses in the Canon specifically stating that nibbana lies beyond the range of the six senses and their objects. Sn\ V.6, for instance, indicates that a person who has attained nibbana has gone beyond all phenomena (sabbe dhamma), and therefore cannot be described. "END QUOTE I haven't looked at the Pali for the sutta he cites above but I think it may refer to khandha parinibbana which is the death of an arahant where the khandhas finally cease and cannot arise again. Yasa wrote "in Thailand there is a tradition of Forest Monks. They were never taught the dhamma, they were merely given meditation instructions and sent off to the forests to meditate on their own or with another. They eventually become masters of this sublime teaching, the knowledge of which they acquire through meditative wisdom. Venerable Ajahn Mun is well known monk of this tradition." I looked up on the web and see that venerable Thanissara has written about nibbana and also the venerable Mun: "A heart released". There is another book also about the venerable: http://www.buddhistinformation.com/venerable_phra_acharn_mun_bhurid2. htm ""On the nights following the Venerable Acharn's [Mun]full-final Attainment, there were a number of Buddhas together with their arahant disciples who paid him a visit in appreciation for his Deliverance. On one night a Buddha with tens of thousands of disciples would come, whereas on another night another Buddha would come with hundreds of thousands of his disciples. The number of disciples accompanying each Buddha was not the same, depending on the achievement of each Buddha."" Some of venerable Thanissaro writings appear to be suggesting that consciousness exists beyond the parinibbana of an arahant. This might be part of the reason why feels explanations of the ancient monks – compiled in Sri Lanka by Venerable Buddhaghosa-- are peculiar when it comes to questions of nibbana. RobertK --- 22951 From: Date: Tue Jun 17, 2003 3:14pm Subject: Way 103, Mental Objects Commentary on the Satipatthana Sutta, "The Way of Mindfulness" trans. & ed. Soma Thera, Commentary, Buddhaghosa Thera, Subcommentary (tika), Dhammapala Thera. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/misc/wayof.html The Contemplation of Mental Objects The Factors of Enlightenment 6. Concentration There is the sign of quietude, and the sign of non-confusion, and an abundance of right reflection on these is the reason conducive to the arising of the non-arisen enlightenment factor of concentration and for the increase, expansion and completion by culture of the enlightenment factor of concentration when it has arisen. [Tika] The first stage of tranquillity which arises when an object is being grasped by way of bearing it in mind, the composed manner, is the characteristic sign of quietude. There the sign of quietude is just the quietude by way of the composed manner. And in the sense of non-distraction is the sign of non-confusion to be taken. [T] Confusion is the state of mind which, because of the whirling in a multiplicity of objects, is jumping from thing to thing, diverse of aim, and not one-pointed. Distraction is the same in character. Unsteadiness is its salient feature, and deviation is its manifestation. By one-pointedness of mind confusion is thrown out. Eleven things lead to the arising of concentration. Purification of the basis; the imparting of evenness to the spiritual controlling faculties; skill in taking up the sign of the object of meditation; the inciting of the mind on occasion, the restraining of the mind on occasion, the gladdening of the mind on occasion and the regarding of the mind without interfering on occasion; the avoiding of people who are not collected in mind; association with people who are collected in mind; reflection on the absorptions and the emancipations; and the inclination towards the development of the enlightenment factor of concentration. [T] Skill in the taking up of the sign which is the cause for the arising of absorption is skill in taking up the sign. The inciting of the mind on occasion is the applying of the mind vigorously by bringing into being the enlightenment factors of the investigation of mental objects, energy and joy, when there is excessive laxity of energy and of the application of wisdom, and a deficiency of delight in the meditation. The restraining of the mind refers to the checking of the mind that is becoming excessively energetic, too strong, in the application of wisdom and elated with delight, by bringing into being the enlightenment factors of calm, concentration and equanimity. The gladdening of the mind means: The enlivening with confidence of the mind becomes dissatisfied either through weak application of wisdom or the non-attainment of the bliss of restfulness (or of the subsidence of the passions even temporarily). This enlivening is done through reflection on the eight reasons for the upsurge of spiritual feeling, namely, birth, decay, disease, death, the suffering of the four states of woe, the samsaric round of suffering in the past, and the suffering rooted in the search for nutriment in the present life, and through contemplation on the qualities of the Triple Gem. The regarding of the mind without interfering is the absence of the work of inciting, retraining and gladdening the mind which has got to right practice and which proceeds well in the object, free from sloth, free from restlessness, and free from dissatisfaction. It is comparable to the state of a charioteer who looks on uninterfering when the horses are going well. The keeping away from persons who have not reached partial or full absorption and are distracted of mind is the avoiding of people who are not collected in mind. Association with persons who have reached those states of absorption is association with people who are collected in mind. The mind inclining, sloping, and bending towards concentration-production in all postures of standing, sitting and the like constitutes the inclination for this factor. The completion by culture of the enlightenment factor of concentration is through the path of arahantship. [T] Excessive laxity... Of application of wisdom means feeble working of wisdom. As the principal thing in liberality is non-greed, and in virtue non-hate, so in meditation it is wisdom (non-ignorance) that is the principal thing. Therefore, if wisdom is not very strong in the development of concentration there will be no causing of contemplative attainment (or distinction). As unprepared food gives no pleasure to a man, so, without the application of wisdom, the object of meditation does not give satisfaction to the yogi's mind. To the yogi then there is the pointing out of the remedy for that lack of satisfaction in the stirring up of spiritual feeling and confidence. 22952 From: monomuni Date: Mon Jun 16, 2003 9:02pm Subject: Sweet Salient Silence ! Friends: Sweet, salient & silent is the Harmony of any Sangha, of any Dhamma Community living in friendly concord & unity. Thus is the Noble Life quite blissful! So come on friends! Approach the Dhamma. Approach the Sangha. Spread the real Truth! That advantagesous action will be for the longterm benefit & serene joy of all without exception ... Yeah ! Friendship is the GREATEST !! & the whole Motivation behind the entire Noble Life ... Samanera Samahita Cypress Hut, Gangamulla Bambarella, Tawalantenna 20838. Central Province. SRI LANKA. Email: monomuni@m... WWW: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Buddha-Direct : - ] -- A saying of the Buddha from http://metta.lk/ Here he suffers, hereafter he suffers. In both states the evildoer suffers. "Evil have I done" (thinking thus), he suffers. Furthermore, he suffers, having gone to a woeful state. Random Dhammapada Verse 17 22953 From: monomuni Date: Mon Jun 16, 2003 10:12pm Subject: Dwelling Peacefully without Conflict Friends: All outer conflict is based on inner conflict! If there is no internal mental conflict, then no external social or physical conflict is ever possible! If all 'nodes' or 'individuals' in a social network abides without conflict this will be a sphere beyond! Simple yet True ! What is a peacefull abiding ? The void abiding is seeing & understanding that there is only mind-&-form lacking both any inner self & any outer substantiality. This is a peacefull abiding. The signless abiding is with a mind unsettled on any sensed object, sign, symbol or thought, seeing any such occurence as terror. This is a peacefull abiding. The desireless abiding is seeing the transience, frustration & lack of Me-mine-or-Self inherent in whatever form, whatever feeling, whatever experience, whatever construction & whatever consciousness, thereby loosing interest, desire & craving for them all. This is a peacefull abiding. What is abiding without conflict ? The absorption of the 1st Jhana lacking the 5 mental hindrances is an abiding without conflict. The absorption of the 2nd Jhana where both directed & sustained thought is stilled is an abiding without conflict. The absorption of the 3rd Jhana where both happiness & depression is absent is an abiding without conflict. The absorption of the 4th Jhana where both pleasure & pain is silenced is an abiding without conflict. The infinitude of space where all experience of form, sense reaction & difference of diversity is all quieted is an abiding without conflict. The infinitude of consciousness where all experience of space & spatiality have ceased is an abiding without conflict. The absorption into empty nothingness, void of any experience of any consciousness is an abiding without conflict. The neither-perception-nor-non-perception lacking even experience of nothingness is an abiding without conflict. Knowledge is these states being directly known. Understanding is the act of understanding that. Source: The Path of Discrimination I (444-48) Patisambhidamagga I [97-8] Spoken by Sariputta. : - ] Samanera Samahita, Sri Lanka monomuni@m... http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Buddha-Direct/ -- A saying of the Buddha from http://metta.lk/ And this becomes the beginning here for a wise Bhikkhu: sense-control, contentment, restraint with regard to the Fundamental Code (patimokkha), association with beneficent and energetic friends whose livelihood is pure. Random Dhammapada Verse 375 22954 From: rjkjp1 Date: Tue Jun 17, 2003 3:55pm Subject: Re: Present moment In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "yasalalaka" > > > wrote: "wisdom" has two meanings, one is just understanding > correctly, and the other, the penetrative understanding, where a deep > concentration is necessary. But for deep concentration, a certain > discipline and a method, is of primary importance. ___________ Dear Yasa, You referred in a few posts to sitting under a tree and concentrating on the breath. I assume this is what the 'certain discipline and method' is? ________________ > > It is certainly not by," living the moment, seeing the rising and > falling away of thoughts, any time any where", even while running to > catch the train ! > __ I probably missed the post you are quoting here. Could you give the reference to make discussion easier. On the point "seeing the rising and falling of thought" : to me this sounds like thinking. Nina wrote :http://www.abhidhamma.org/India6.html A.Sujin said: "If we try to analyse different moments it is not panna, it is thinking. When there is more understanding there will be less thinking about `me' all the time. We should think of other people rather than thinking of ourselves. Any time satipatthana arises, it is so useful. It is like a drop of water falling in a big jar, even if it is a tiny drop." In other words, eventually the jar will be filled with water, even if there is a little drop at a time. Even so, a short moment of sati is useful, because it is accumulated little by little, so that right understanding can grow. We learn that all realities are anatta, but we have wrong understanding of anatta. We forget that the reality appearing at this moment is anatta."" ________________ > Lord Buddha in his great compassion, has given us all the necessary > instructions in his discourses -the Suttas. If we leave that to,"the > beings of lesser understanding", and take to Abhidhamma to find a > more intellectual practice of Dhamma, we will be up the wrong tree. > From their the perspective below will be different and the path that > leads to Nibbana ,will be hidden from the view. Therefore it is > better to come down from that unsafe perch, and > re-evaluate Bhavana. > Yasa. _______________ Perhaps if we look at Abhidhamma from the outside it appears an intellectual study. I think we have to strive to see it in the moment. Then the whole world begins to be unravel and become Abhidhamma; sort of like 'The Matrix'. The venerable Sitagu sayadaw wrote about Abhidhamma and insight - I've quoted this before- in a pithy way: http://web.ukonline.co.uk/buddhism/dhamaj2.htm "Vipassana is a method of wisdom that searches for truth and peace in diverse ways by observing, inquiring into, and penetrating the nature, the essence, the set order, the absence of being, the selflessness and the ultimately reality of mind and matter. .. In both instances, Vipassana and Abhidhamma are identical. Since Vipassana meditation takes the Abhidhamma as its sole object of contemplation, Vipassana and Abhidhamma cannot be separated. And while it may not be said that one can practice Vipassana only after one has mastered the Abhidhamma, Vipassana meditation and the study of Abhidhamma remain one and the same thing. Because mind, mental factors and matter are forever bound up with this fathom-long body, the study and learning of this subject, and the concentrated observation of the nature of mind, mental factors and matter are tasks which cannot be distinguished. Since at the very least one would have to say that there can be no Vipassana without an understanding of mind and matter, surely then it is not possible to separate Abhidhamma and Vipassana. It is explained in the Abhidhamma that the root causes giving rise to the seven elements of mind and matter are ignorance (avijja), craving (tanha) and volitional action (kamma). It is further pointed out that the supporting conditions for these same seven elements are kamma, mind, climate (utu) and nutriment (ahara). Only by grasping these abhidhammic truths will one possess the knowledge which comprehends conditional relations (paccayapariggahanana), and achieve the purification of mind necessary for overcoming doubt... Therefore, since it is the case that Vipassana and Abhidhamma are not separate but are mutually dependent, it is rightly submitted that Vipassana yogis ought not let go of that wise method of learning about the human condition called the Abhidhamma."" EndQuote. You indicated above that deep concentration is needed for insight. I think this could be taken in a right or wrong way. It is true that at moments of vipassana concentration is strong, but it is a concentration that arises to focus for those moments on whatever reality is present; it is not-self, not under mastery of anyone. I think it is a subtle point. RobertK 22955 From: rjkjp1 Date: Tue Jun 17, 2003 6:35pm Subject: Samma-ditthi wasPresent moment > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" > wrote: > > ---> > > --- , "yasalalaka" > > > wrote: James: I don't believe > > that `Right View' is the same thing as Panna. Many in this group > > seem to use that word for just about anything from basic > > understanding/knowledge to full blown enlightenment. Panna should > > only be used to describe the highest wisdom, when the Four Noble > > Truths are known intimately, cognitively, and intuitively. It > > doesn't require enlightenment, but it is a far sight more than just > > knowing the basics. Right View is basically just knowing the > > basics. > > ________ Dear James, I think it is not too critical whether samma-ditthi or panna is used provided we make it reasonably clear what is meant. Samma-ditthi (right view) is used to mean begining levels of understanding - as you say - but also advanced ones: From the Anguttara Nikaya Dasakanipata(book of tens) 11. Pañhama-asekhasuttam- on one gone beyond the training [The arahant] ßHere, bhikkhus, the bhikkhu is endowed with perfect right view, perfect right thoughts, perfect right speech, perfect right activity, perfect right livelihood, perfect right endeavour, perfect right mindfulness, perfect right concentration perfect right knowledge and perfect right release gone beyond the training. Such a one is gone beyond the training 013. Parisuddhavaggo The section on purity. 1. Pañhamasuttam- The first. 123. ""Bhikkhus, these ten things are pure and clean and are not found any where else other than in the discipline of the Well Gone One. What ten? Right view, right thoughts, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right endeavour, right mindfulness, right concentration, right knowledge and right release. Bhikkhus, these ten things are pure and clean and are not found any where else other than in the discipline of the Well Gone One. "endquote 4. Catutthasuttam- The fourth. 126. Bhikkhus, these ten things train to end greed, hatred and delusion. They are not found any where else other than in the discipline of the Well Gone One. What ten? Right view, right thoughts, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right endeavour, right mindfulness, right concentration, right knowledge and right release. Bhikkhus, these ten things train to end greed, hatred and delusion are not found any where else other than in the discipline of the Well Gone One. 9. Pubbaõgamasuttam- The first sign. 121. Bhikkhus, the first appearance, the first signs of the rising sun is dawn. In the same manner the first appearances and the first signs of all meritorious things is right view. To one with right view, there are right thoughts. To one with right thoughts, there is right speech. To one with right speech, there is right action. To one with right actions, there is right livelihood. To one with right livelihood, there is right endeavour. To one with right endeavour, there is right mindfulness. To one with right mindfulness, there is right concentration. To one with right concentration, there is right knowledge. To one with right knowledge, there is right release" 4. Bãjasuttam Seedlings. ßBhikkhus, of a person with right view, right thoughts, right speech, right activities, right livelihood, right endeavour, right mindfulness, right concentration, right knowledge and right release, whatever be the extent of his right view, to that extent will be the proficiency of his bodily. verbal and mental activities, intentions, wishes, aspirations and determinations. All those things will conduce to be agreeable, desirable and pleasant. What is the reason? Bhikkhus, it is on account of the right view. 6. Tayodhammasuttam- Three things. Bhikkhus, without dispelling three things, it is not possible to dispel the view of a self, doubts and grasping virtues as the highest aim. What three? Unwise attention, practising in the wrong path and the mind's immobility Bhikkhus, without dispelling these three things, it is not possible to dispel the view of a self, doubts and.grasping virtues as the highest aim." endquote RobertK 22956 From: m. nease Date: Tue Jun 17, 2003 2:29pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Present moment Hi Howard, ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Tuesday, June 17, 2003 11:05 AM Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Present moment > Hi, Mike - > > In a message dated 6/17/03 11:48:00 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > mlnease@z... writes: > > > I'm inclined to the view that the right path factors arise > > simultaneously--that is that when, say, right concentration arises, so do > > right understanding, right thought, right effort and right mindfulness (and > > right speech, right action or right livelihood on occasion). > > > ---------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Well, if one is taking Right Concentration to mean concentration > supported by all the other path factors - one definition in the suttas, then, yes, > but if it means the 1st four jhanas - another definition in the suttas(!), > then no. Yes, I suppose you're right--though I suppose the right path factors MIGHT arise with the jhaanas. I'd be interested in comparing these suttas if you have references. > Also, I think that Right Livelihood, Right Speech, and Right Action are > problematical for this view. They don't seem so to me--but they would only arise in a moment of deliberate abstinence from wrong livelihood, speech or action, with the other right factors present. Does this make sense? By the way, does anyone remember the source of a distinction between concentration, right concentration and right concentration of the eightfold path? If so, this might resolve the jhaana question above. mike 22957 From: buddhatrue Date: Tue Jun 17, 2003 8:13pm Subject: Re: Present moment --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > A.Sujin said: > "If we try to analyse different moments it is not panna, it is > thinking. When there is more understanding there will be less > thinking about `me' all the time. We should think of other people > rather than thinking of ourselves. Any time satipatthana arises, it > is so useful. It is like a drop of water falling in a big jar, even > if it is a tiny drop." To anyone, Why wait for little drops of sati to appear? Why not open the faucet and have the full flow of sati with meditation (to extend the metaphor)? With A. Sujin's method, we would all remain continually thirsty for truth. Metta, James 22958 From: Date: Tue Jun 17, 2003 4:24pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Present moment Hi, Mike - In a message dated 6/17/03 11:14:16 PM Eastern Daylight Time, mlnease@z... writes: > > Hi Howard, > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: > Sent: Tuesday, June 17, 2003 11:05 AM > Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Present moment > > > >Hi, Mike - > > > >In a message dated 6/17/03 11:48:00 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > >mlnease@z... writes: > > > >>I'm inclined to the view that the right path factors arise > >>simultaneously--that is that when, say, right concentration arises, so > do > >>right understanding, right thought, right effort and right mindfulness > (and > >>right speech, right action or right livelihood on occasion). > >> > >---------------------------------------------------- > >Howard: > > Well, if one is taking Right Concentration to mean concentration > >supported by all the other path factors - one definition in the suttas, > then, yes, > >but if it means the 1st four jhanas - another definition in the suttas(!), > >then no. > > Yes, I suppose you're right--though I suppose the right path factors MIGHT > arise with the jhaanas. I'd be interested in comparing these suttas if you > have references. > ----------------------------------------------- Howard: Sorry, I don't. I'm poor at that. But these references do exist. ----------------------------------------------- > > >Also, I think that Right Livelihood, Right Speech, and Right Action are > >problematical for this view. > > They don't seem so to me--but they would only arise in a moment of > deliberate abstinence from wrong livelihood, speech or action, with the > other right factors present. Does this make sense? > ------------------------------------------------------ Howard: Not to me. Livelihood, speech, and action, right or wrong, are pa~n~natti, to me - concept-only. ------------------------------------------------------ > > By the way, does anyone remember the source of a distinction between > concentration, right concentration and right concentration of the eightfold > path? If so, this might resolve the jhaana question above. > > mike > > =========================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 22959 From: bodhi dhamma Date: Tue Jun 17, 2003 9:14pm Subject: Re: [dsg] cessation of rebirth & kammic activities Sarah wrote: Hi PC, Thank you so much for telling us more about yourself and about your Sunday teaching. That’s great that you know RobM. We all appreciate his energy and keen interest in the Dhamma and Abhidhamma. > As a parttime sunday dhamma school teacher, for adults with little or no > dhamma knowledge, I use to have a lots of questions from the floor that > I must confess that I am not good enough to answer.Altough I have a > small personal library to refer, but the problem is that I don't know > which chapter to refer to.This is especially true when questions like > Abhidhamma is concerned, worse still it is my weak area. .... Please don’t be afraid of making errors here or asking basic questions and sharing what you know.... It’s not an academic list and we’re just a group of friends trying to help and support each other. We all make mistakes and learn that way too. We can even learn from the conceit that minds making mistakes;-) For Abhidhamma reference, you may find some of Nina VanGorkom’s books on line useful for reference, esp. Abhidhamma in Daily Life, Cetasikas, Rupas, Conditions at: http://www.vipassana.info/ http://www.abhidhamma.org/ http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Also Sujin Boriharnwanaket’s book, Survey of Paramattha Dhammas Also, Rob M’s notes and slides are in the files section of DSG: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/ If you don’t have a copy of B.Bodhi’s transl and notes of A Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma (Abhidhammattha Sangaha), it would be useful for you. Also, a very slim, but useful guide is Nyantiloka’s ‘Guide through the Abhidhamma Pitaka’. These are available from the Buddhist Publication Society. Another book, Buddha Abhidhamma Ultimate Science by Dr Mehm Tin Mon is also very clearly presented (RobM gave us a copy). Finally, if use use the search function at the escribe back-up for DSG for any specific terms, you’ll have access to past discussions. http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/ You may also like to look at some of the past DSG posts under specific topics at: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/Useful_Posts Of the Abhidhamma texts themselves (in English), the ones I find most useful as reference are the commentaries to the first two books, i.e The Atthasalini (The Expositor) and the Sammohavinodani (Dispeller of Delusion), both pub. by the Pali Text Society and not on line. Narada’s Guide to Conditional Relations, an introduction to the Patthana, is also very helpful. After these, I refer to the Dhammasangani and Vibhanga, the first two books of the Abhidhamma, from time to time and occasionally only to the last books of the Abhidhamma which are way over my head;-) Of course other texts, such as the Visuddhimagga, are also packed full of Abhidhamma and so are the suttas and commentaries too;-) Finally, I’m sure one of the most used and best loved resources by us all here is Nyantiloka’s dictionary: http://www.palikanon.com/english/wtb/dic_idx.html We look forward to hearing plenty from you, PC. I can tell you’re very modest about your knowledge and interest. With metta, Sarah ===== Thank you Sarah, I have most of the books listed/recommended by you, and have compiled many articles written by Nina, Sujin from the internet. Right now the class is more interested in sutras studies and I spend more time in this area. I managed to finish one book on Abhidhamma ( the basic one, by Ashin ) and half of Nina's Abhidhamma in daily life. Thank you once again, with metta P C Yap 22960 From: Sarah Date: Wed Jun 18, 2003 0:03am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism XIV, 3 Hi Larry, --- LBIDD@w... wrote: > Hi all, > > I have embarked upon a project of closely reading the "Understanding" > section of the Visuddhimagga (Path of Purification) with the goal of > understanding every sentence. So right away I have a question. Consider > the following: >..... Understanding knows the object in the way already stated, it brings > about the penetration of the characteristics and it brings about, by > endeavouring, the manifestation of the path. > > L: Looking-up "endeavour" in the index I see that it is a translation of > padhaana which is usually translated as effort but I don't think this > instance refers to Right Effort. Based on examples of this 'endeavour' > in other paragraphs it seems to mean thorough investigation. ..... Great project, great quote and interesting qu;-)I don't pretend to have the answer, but I'll share what I found. Perhaps, do you think XX11, 35 is relevant (even though in this part of the ch, the arahant’s wisdom is being referred to)? : sammappadhaana - ‘.... and it is endeavour because of bringing about improvement and giving precedence (padhaana-bhaava-kaara.na)’. ‘Four foundations of mindfulness’,by it -> 4 padhaanas -> manifestation of the path. .... >So my > question is, is the main difference between consciousness and > understanding that brings about the manifestation of the path simply > this extra factor of thorough investigation? .... I think the analogy used about the child, villager and money-changer seeing the coin works quite well. Consciousness experiences or cognizes an object just as it is (eg seeing sees visible object without any mistake or difficulty), but it doesn’t ‘know’ its nature/essence or characteristic without the penetrative insight of wisdom. Thorough investigation is OK, as long as we understand in this context that it is referring to insight knowledge and not merely intellectual understanding. X1V,2 “ What is Understanding? Understanding (pa~n~na) is of many sorts and has various aspects. ..............here, which is understanding consisting in insight knowledge asociated with profitable consciousness.” Larry, I hope you’ll continue your series, but as I’m getting ready to go on a trip next week, perhaps others will be able to continue the discussions. With metta, Sarah ======= 22961 From: Sarah Date: Wed Jun 18, 2003 0:31am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Dating of texts, to Jim. advice needed. Hi Jim, Thank you for the extra details. I’ve checked the four sets in the AN bk of 4s. As you say, they are the same. They are all very helpful analogies. I think that because the mouse one is very cryptically set out in the PTS translation, it never got my attention before. I like the one about the mangoes too - the unripe mango ‘which looks ripe’, the ripe one ‘which looks unripe’, ‘the unripe which looks unripe’ ‘and the ripe which looks ripe’. In the references to the 9 angas (ninefold styles), do you understand the Jataka category to refer just to the verses or also to ‘present’ life story and/or the past life story? If it is just to the verses, why would these not fall under the verse category in yr opinion? I ask this because I was reminded of an earlier discussion and quote of yours which Christine posted concerning the Jatakas (which I’ll add at the end if I can find it easily). In the Bahiranidana, Jataka is included in the angas recited at the Councils and later there are occasional examples of an Elder giving a Jataka, eg Mahaanaradakassapa Jataka 544, and 84,000 listeners being enlightened as a result. Surely not just from the pithy verse alone?? I notice in the Rhys Davids-Stede Pali dict that in the entry for Jataka it mentions the angas: “1. A birth story as found in the earlier books. This is always the story of a previous birth of the Buddha as a wise man of old. In this sense it occurs as the name of one of the 9 categories of varieties of literary composition 2. The story of any previous birth of the Buddha, esp. as an animal. In this sense the word is not found in the 4 Nikayas........ 3. The name of a book in the Pali canon, containing the verses of 547 such stories...... ***** Cowell has many interesting comments in his intro to the translation of the Jataka stories. Perhaps the comments you made in response to Nina’s question on Psm apply with regard to the limitations of the archeological approach for the Jatakas and other texts as well. Sorry Jim, when I started writing this, I didn’t intend to be asking any further questions, but one thing led to another as it tends to do. If you have any further comments, I’d be very interested to hear them, but there’s no hurry and I understand if you’re busy. With metta, Sarah ====== Jim: "The Jataka (jaataka.m) is part of the Tipitaka and occupies two volumes in print. It consists of verses uttered by the Buddha and would have been recited at the great rehearsals. The Jataka commentary (jaataka.t.thakathaa) which contains the stories that go with the verses take up 10 volumes in a Thai edition. It is traditionally ascribed to Buddhaghosa (as translator & editor). All the verses in the Jataka are also included in the Jataka commentary. .... some people are under the impression that the Jataka stories are part of the Tipitaka but upon closer examination one will find that the stories in fact belong to the commentary. The Jataka proper is only made up of verses like in the Dhammapada." 22962 From: Sarah Date: Wed Jun 18, 2003 0:41am Subject: RE: [dsg] Questions Hi Chuck, --- Charles Clifford wrote: > Rahula, > > Karma is accumulated through the commission of volitional acts. For an > act to be a volitional act, the party must act with intention. > > The primary test of whether a given act will bring negative or positive > karma to the person committing the act is that party's intention behind > the act. ..... I appreciated your response to Rahula and the important points you made. (James also added a good reply and quote to the first qu;-)) I’m very glad to see you posting on DSG and we certainly all need any help with our questions. I hope you’re finding some of the threads useful. Chuck, are you the same Chuck some of us met briefly in Bangkok at the Foundation? If so, in the case of Jon, Christine and myself it was very brief indeed as we sped off in the same taxi you arrived in, but you met several other friends from this list. If I’ve got all the concepts mixed up, my apologies and please forget this nonsense;-) Either way, hope you find your stay on DSG enjoyable too. With metta, Sarah ===== 22963 From: Sarah Date: Wed Jun 18, 2003 2:18am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: importance of Meditation Hi Yasa, I’m sorry for the delay in getting back to your posts addressed to me, but I see you’ve been kept busy talking to other friends here;-) Firstly, of course none of us want you to ‘shut up anytime’ and we’re all glad to see your *good* habit of ‘butting in to a discussion’. No need to ever hesitate in replying and I appreciate your straightforward comments regarding your carefully considered understanding of the Dhamma. So hopefully, now we both understand each other better, we can rest assured that no offence is taken or ever intended;-) I think in this post I’d like to just clarify what I believe we understand in common, based on our recent discussion and your last posts to me: 1. We both accept Nyantiloka’s definition of bhavana here: " Bhavana:' mental development' (lit. `calling into existence, producing) is what in ENGLISH is generally but rather vaguely called "meditation". Further down he says: "Tranquillity (samatha) is the concentrated, unshaken, peaceful and therefore undefiled state of mind, while insight(vipassana)is the intuitive insight into the impermanency, misery and impersonality(anicca; dukkha,anatta;s.tilakkhana) of all bodily and mental phenomena of existence included in the five groups of existence…….etc. 2. We cannot deny the Abhidhamma is an ‘integral part of the Tipitaka’ and ‘the word of the Buddha’. ‘The Sutta Pitaka contains Abhidhamma terminology’. ‘Seven years after his enlightenment the Buddha delivered the discourse on Abhidhamma to the Devas’. Sariputta was instructed. 3. Buddhaghosa translated and compiled rather than wrote the commentaries. He fully utilised the Abhidhamma ‘in the composition of the Visuddhimagga’. 4. We can all read and study those parts of the Tipitaka that seem most helpful or relevant to us, considering what are the essential aspects, without any disrespect to those apects or parts which seem less essential. 5. The Buddha’s disciples memorised the Dhamma, recited it in groups and thus preserved the teachings orally until they were written down. To assist our comprehension, commentaries and sub-commentaries explaining difficult terms were added by the key disciples - mostly arahants. Even in the lifetime of the Buddha, often the listeners would have to go to these key disciples, such as Maha Kaccana, for clarification and detail and were encouraged to do so. 6. Of greatest importance, there is no self but merely a continuous flow of cittas (consciousness) continuing from life to life, accumulating ‘data’ as it goes. There are also cetasikas (mental factors) accompanying the cittas and rupas which are those dhammas which do not experience anything. Being aware and understanding these phenomena is not the same as thinking about them. When we refer to a ‘meditator’ or ‘meditation’ these are conventional terms used to refer to bhavana and quite different from thinking. 7. Awareness can only arise at the present moment and eventually the highly developed wisdom can understand the characteristics of anicca, dukkha and anatta which are inherent in all conditioned dhammas. This is impossible without the development of insight or vipassana, developing step by step and is quite different from the present ‘superficial understanding’ when we just talk about these realities. ***** Please let me know if I have mis-represented any of your comments/understandings here, Yasa. As I’ll be going away next week, I may have to continue our discussions on our return (mid-July). After signing off, as others have been having some interesting discussions on the role of panna (right understanding)in bhavana, I’d like to use this post to re-quote a couple of short extracts I found interesting from our Ven friend’s Uposatha series and also the last Tika (sub-commentary) note to the Satipatthana Sutta just posted on 'The Factors of Enlightenment -concentration'. With metta, Sarah ===== “Just as the great Ocean slopes away gradually, deepens gradually, inclines gradually, and not in an abrupt way like an abyss, even so Paharada, is this teaching and discipline: a gradual training (anupubbasikkha), a gradual practice (anupubbakiriya), a gradual progress (anupubbapatipada); there is no penetration to the highest wisdom in any abrupt way.” AN ii 47 ====================================================== “Asking Questions logically leads to Wisdom: As a bhikkhu walking for alms beg from low, middle and high folks, if one search and ask both low, middle and highly wise teachers, then the insight of the Buddhas shall be yours.” The Basket of Conduct, Cariyapitaka ========================================================= "As the principal thing in liberality is non-greed, and in virtue non-hate, so in meditation it is wisdom (non-ignorance) that is the principal thing. Therefore, if wisdom is not very strong in the development of concentration there will be no causing of contemplative attainment (or distinction). As unprepared food gives no pleasure to a man, so, without the application of wisdom, the object of meditation does not give satisfaction to the yogi's mind." Tika, Satipatthana Sutta =========================================================== 22964 From: Charles Clifford Date: Wed Jun 18, 2003 3:21am Subject: RE: [dsg] Questions Sarah, I am not the same Chuck you met in Bangkok at the foundation. Metta, -----Original Message----- From: Sarah [mailto:sarahdhhk@y...] Sent: Wednesday, June 18, 2003 3:42 AM To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [dsg] Questions Hi Chuck, --- Charles Clifford wrote: > Rahula, > > Karma is accumulated through the commission of volitional acts. For an > act to be a volitional act, the party must act with intention. > > The primary test of whether a given act will bring negative or positive > karma to the person committing the act is that party's intention behind > the act. ..... I appreciated your response to Rahula and the important points you made. (James also added a good reply and quote to the first qu;-)) I'm very glad to see you posting on DSG and we certainly all need any help with our questions. I hope you're finding some of the threads useful. Chuck, are you the same Chuck some of us met briefly in Bangkok at the Foundation? If so, in the case of Jon, Christine and myself it was very brief indeed as we sped off in the same taxi you arrived in, but you met several other friends from this list. If I've got all the concepts mixed up, my apologies and please forget this nonsense;-) Either way, hope you find your stay on DSG enjoyable too. With metta, Sarah ===== 22965 From: Sarah Date: Wed Jun 18, 2003 2:57am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: meditation vs. just thinking about it Hi Chris, Thankyou for sharing your concerns and considerations. You raise good questions and I’ve appreciated the replies Yasa, James and others have given. I hope you don’t mind a few of my comments too: --- christhedis wrote: > Whether by meditation or just my everyday contemplation, I think I have > begun to see the impermanence of life. I recognize many things that I > do as reactions caused by craving or aversion, for example. But this > leads to my next conundrum.. .... I think as Yasa and others have pointed out recently, we need to distinguish between thinking and direct understanding or realization. When we think we begin ‘to see the impermanence of life’, isn’t this just reflecting about it? However, it may still be useful reflection and so with those about craving and aversion . ..... > I have heard often that when a person starts meditating, "It will get > worse before it gets better". I believe that through beginning to > recognize why I react as I do, I have been getting very anxious, even > scared at times, that I need to leave some familiar and "safe" behaviour > patterns behind. But this anxiety has often caused me to fall back hard > on these familiar patterns (eating too much or watching too much TV, > for example). At times, my mind races with a million thoughts, and I > feel on the verge of losing control. > > Can anyone relate to this? And can anyone help me with any advice on > what to do? ..... I’m sure we can all relate to these patterns to greater or lesser extents. I think that sometimes we have an idea that ‘we’ should be a certain way, eg more equanimous, or that our behaviour patterns should be different and improved from usual. However, wishing they are other than they are at this time will not help us to develop any detachment or acceptance of what is conditioned already. We think the answer is to follow a course of action or to find the right recipe to follow in steps, but these courses of action consist of many different phenomena and it is the bhavana (mental development) --and in particular the understanding of these phenomena -- which will help. While we cling to ourselves and to ways of life or results we think should be in place, the result is likely to be more rather than less anxiety and disturbance I think. As I mentioned at the start, much of the insight which seems apparent may just be thinking and it helps a lot to be honest enough to see what beginners we are. This way there won’t be the high expectations that life, with its ups and downs, will be significantly different from usual. The attachment to particular results can be a real impediment, I think. In your first question to the list, you asked about being ‘equanimous in all situations’ and transcending ‘all worldly attachments’. I think it’s impossible and useless to try and train ourselves like this. It’s bound to be an unnatural imitation of the arahants rather than an understanding and acceptance of the present reality and our tendencies and inclinations. In other words, we have to start at the beginning at the present moment. So please don’t be concerned about problems ‘practising Buddhism’. Any practice should make life easier not harder. Trying to be equanimous or to ‘extinguish desires’ is bound to make life harder and bound to be motivated by an idea that a ‘self’ can do this. I’m not sure if any of these comments are of any help. Please let us know what you think and what further questions or comments you have. Appreciating your open sharing, Metta, Sarah ===== 22966 From: Sarah Date: Wed Jun 18, 2003 3:09am Subject: RE: [dsg] Questions Hi Chuck, --- Charles Clifford wrote: > Sarah, > > I am not the same Chuck you met in Bangkok at the foundation. > > Metta, .... thanks for the quick clarification - I'm always getting names and people mixed up. I anytime you'd like to tell us where you live or how you came here, great, if not, no problem;-) Metta, Sarah ======= 22967 From: Charles Clifford Date: Wed Jun 18, 2003 4:00am Subject: RE: [dsg] Questions Sarah, I live in Charlotte, North Carolina, USA. I came across this group while searching for a particular Bhavana Society group. Metta, -----Original Message----- From: Sarah [mailto:sarahdhhk@y...] Sent: Wednesday, June 18, 2003 6:10 AM To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [dsg] Questions Hi Chuck, --- Charles Clifford wrote: > Sarah, > > I am not the same Chuck you met in Bangkok at the foundation. > > Metta, .... thanks for the quick clarification - I'm always getting names and people mixed up. I anytime you'd like to tell us where you live or how you came here, great, if not, no problem;-) Metta, Sarah ======= 22968 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Wed Jun 18, 2003 4:17am Subject: Re: Present moment Hi James and all, Right view is expounded in various ways in the discourses. In this message, I will try to explain how I understand right view, quoting mostly from Maha-cattarisaka Sutta (MN 117) -- The Great Forty. This discourse has a fairly complex structure. However, it does illustrate the relation between right view and other path factors. Hopefully this message will bring up some beneficial discussion. Right view is the forerunner in the noble eightfold path. It is forerunner in at least two contexts: one's practice/development of the path factors and one's progression of the path. In terms of the practice/development of the path factors, right view, right resolve, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, & right mindfulness are the supports and requisite conditions for the noble right concentration. Of those seven supports and requisite conditions, right view is the forerunner. How is right view the forerunner? One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. One discerns wrong resolve as wrong resolve, and right resolve as right resolve. One discerns wrong speech as wrong speech, and right speech as right speech. One discerns wrong action as wrong action, and right action as right action. One discerns wrong livelihood as wrong livelihood, and right livelihood as right livelihood. This discernment is one's right view. It is the forerunner. Without it, right view, right resolve, right speech, right action, and right livelihood are impossible. Let's examine what wrong view is and right view in more detail. And what is wrong view? 'There is nothing given, nothing offered, nothing sacrificed. There is no fruit or result of good or bad actions. There is no this world, no next world, no mother, no father, no spontaneously reborn beings; no priests or contemplatives who, faring rightly & practicing rightly, proclaim this world & the next after having directly known & realized it for themselves.' This is wrong view. And what is right view? Right view, I tell you, is of two sorts: There is right view with fermentations [asava], siding with merit, resulting in the acquisitions [of becoming]; and there is noble right view, without fermentations, transcendent, a factor of the path. "And what is the right view that has fermentations, sides with merit, & results in acquisitions? 'There is what is given, what is offered, what is sacrificed. There are fruits & results of good & bad actions. There is this world & the next world. There is mother & father. There are spontaneously reborn beings; there are priests & contemplatives who, faring rightly & practicing rightly, proclaim this world & the next after having directly known & realized it for themselves.' This is the right view that has fermentations, sides with merit, & results in acquisitions. "And what is the right view that is without fermentations, transcendent, a factor of the path? The discernment, the faculty of discernment, the strength of discernment, analysis of qualities as a factor for Awakening, the path factor of right view in one developing the noble path whose mind is noble, whose mind is free from fermentations, who is fully possessed of the noble path. This is the right view that is without fermentations, transcendent, a factor of the path. One could say that the right view that is without fermentations is panna. In that sense, the forerunning discernment is panna, however elemental and basic it may be. Right view is also forerunner in terms of one's progression on the noble eightfold path. "Of those, right view is the forerunner. And how is right view the forerunner? In one of right view, right resolve comes into being. In one of right resolve, right speech comes into being. In one of right speech, right action... In one of right action, right livelihood... In one of right livelihood, right effort... In one of right effort, right mindfulness... In one of right mindfulness, right concentration... In one of right concentration, right knowledge... In one of right knowledge, right release comes into being. Thus the learner is endowed with eight factors, and the Arahant with ten. Note that in the progression on the noble eightfold path the eight path factors have a sequential relation where as in one's practice/development of the path factors, the relation is more complex. However, right view is the forerunner in both senses. In the practice/development of the path factors, I see that relation between right view and other path factors not as a sequential one. Although it all started with right view, it is not that one has to first develop right view to its culmination then proceed to the development of other path factors. Nevertheless, development of right view does influence the development other path factors. Your comment is appreciated. Peace, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: [snip] > Hi Victor, > > I was going to wait for Yasa to answer, but others have jumped in so > I thought I would also. The Noble Eightfold Path isn't sequential, > that is why it is called the Eightfold Path; otherwise it would be > the Noble Eightstep Path. Not only that but I don't believe > that `Right View' is the same thing as Panna. Many in this group > seem to use that word for just about anything from basic > understanding/knowledge to full blown enlightenment. Panna should > only be used to describe the highest wisdom, when the Four Noble > Truths are known intimately, cognitively, and intuitively. It > doesn't require enlightenment, but it is a far sight more than just > knowing the basics. Right View is basically just knowing the > basics. It is just understanding the law of karma…that we are all > heirs to our deeds. On a supramundane level, it would be knowing the > law of karma intuitively, but that still isn't panna. If you have a > different understanding, please share. > > Metta, James 22969 From: buddhatrue Date: Wed Jun 18, 2003 6:19am Subject: Re: Present moment --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "yu_zhonghao" wrote: > Hi James and all, > > Right view is expounded in various ways in the discourses. In this > message, I will try to explain how I understand right view, quoting > mostly from Maha-cattarisaka Sutta (MN 117) -- The Great Forty. > This discourse has a fairly complex structure. However, it does > illustrate the relation between right view and other path factors. > Hopefully this message will bring up some beneficial discussion. Hi Victor, Hmmm…this is a very strange sutta indeed. Frankly, I don't believe the Lord Buddha gave this sutta. It is very choppy, illogical, and doesn't really focus on one central idea. And that part at the end of the sutta where the Buddha appears to get very defensive about the sutta and how no one should oppose it without the risk of "criticism, opposition, & reproach". That wasn't his style at all. I don't agree with this sutta. Metta, James 22970 From: girish kumar Date: Wed Jun 18, 2003 6:22am Subject: hello dhamma friends Hi and Hello dear dhamma friends . It gives me great pleasure to tell all of you all that i have returned from a pilgrimage or a spiritual journey of my life to the north indian states of Bihar and UP associated with events and life of Lord Buddha . No part of this world can compare with this land where even today after 2500 yrs one can feel the mystic presence of the Lord . So from tonight onwards i ll be posting some real pictures of the places which i visited with details and information . I wish all of you enjoy them specially who are buddhist and never been to his land . Also if any friends would like to visit these places and need any information can feel to contact me at girish30769@y... . Reverence and homage to Lord Buddha . With all my love and compassion , girish kumar 22971 From: m. nease Date: Wed Jun 18, 2003 6:26am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Present moment Hi Howard, ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Tuesday, June 17, 2003 8:24 PM Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Present moment > > >Also, I think that Right Livelihood, Right Speech, and Right Action are > > >problematical for this view. > > > > They don't seem so to me--but they would only arise in a moment of > > deliberate abstinence from wrong livelihood, speech or action, with the > > other right factors present. Does this make sense? > > > ------------------------------------------------------ > Howard: > Not to me. Livelihood, speech, and action, right or wrong, are > pa~n~natti, to me - concept-only. > ------------------------------------------------------ To me this is back to 'conventional' vs. 'ultimate' expression. Speaking conventionally, all the path factors refer to pa~n~natti, ultimately they all refer to mental factors, as I understand it. Your posts have made me look more closely at the abstinences and here is Bhikkhu Bodhi's explanation from CMA: "The abstinences: The viratis are thre beautiful mental factors which are responsible for the deliberate abstinence from wrong conduct by way of speech, action and livelihood. In mundane consciousness, the viratis are operative only on an occasion when one intentionally refrains from a wrong mode of conduct for which an opportunity has arisen..." This does sound like pa~n~natti to me--and vohaara sacca. A little further on, he writes: "The commentators distinguish three types of virati: (1) natural abstinence; (2) abstinence by undertaking the precepts; and (3) abstinence by eradication. (1) Natural abstinence (sampattavirati) is the abstinence from evil deeds when the opportunity arises to engage in them, due to the consideration of one's social position, age, level of education etc. An example is refraining from theft out of concern that one's reputation would be hurt if one is caught. (2) Abstinence by undertaking precepts (samaadaanavirati) is the abstinence from evil deeds because one has undertaken to observe precepts, for example, the Five Precepts of abstaining from killing, stealing, sexual misconduct, false speech and intoxicants. (3) Abstinence by eradication (samucchedavirati) is the abstinence associated with the supramundane path consciousness, which arises eradicating the dispositions towards evil deeds. Whereas the previous two are mundane, this one is supramundane." The first two do seem to me to refer to concepts, the third to mental factors. The third also seems consistent to me with the idea of the abstinences arising with the other right path factors. mike 22972 From: Sarah Date: Wed Jun 18, 2003 6:32am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sabba Sutta contd;-) Hi Howard, --- upasaka@a... wrote > =================================== > I'll let Thanissaro Bhikkhu reply. His note to the ATI rendering > of > the sutta is the following: > > ********* T:> Note > > 1. The Commentary's treatment of this discourse is very peculiar. To > begin > with, it delineates three other "All's" in addition to the one defined > here, one > of them supposedly larger in scope than the one defined here: the > Allness of > the Buddha's omniscience (literally, All-knowingness). This, despite the > fact > that the discourse says that the description of such an all lies beyond > the > range of explanation. ..... S:I’ve given the comy summary and explanation of nibbana as included in dhammayatana in this context. ..... T: > Secondly, the Commentary includes nibbana (unbinding) within the scope > of the > All described here -- as a dhamma, or object of the intellect -- even > though > there are many other discourses in the Canon specifically stating that > nibbana > lies beyond the range of the six senses and their objects. HREF="http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/khuddaka/suttanipata/snp5-06.html">Sn > V.6, for > instance, indicates that a person who has attained nibbana has gone > beyond all > phenomena (sabbe dhamma), and therefore cannot be described. .... S:As RobK suggested, this is clearly a reference to parinibbana, ‘not subject (to samsara)’, ‘Just as a flame.....goes out and no longer counts (as a flame) etc. .... T:>MN 49 > discusses a > "consciousness without feature" (viññanam anidassanam) that does not > partake of > the "Allness of the All." ..... S:M.Walshe’s transl: Consciousness that is signless, boundless, all-luminous. Bodhi - comy suggests “it can be cognized”. ..... T:>Furthermore, the following discourse ( HREF="http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn35-024.html">SN > XXXV.24) says > that the "All" is to be abandoned. At no point does the Canon say that > nibbana is to be abandoned. Nibbana follows on cessation (nirodha), > which is to be > realized. Once nibbana is realized, there are no further tasks to be > done. ...... S:This reminds me of a discussion I had about the simile of the raft and of it being the attachment to the raft that should be abandoned. I agree with Swee Boon’s comments. B.Bodhi gives the Pali and links to other references detailing pari~n~na, ‘full understanding in terms of the destruction of lust’ etc and pari~n~na as ‘ultimate abandonment’. See the detailed discussion Nina and I had on the details of the terms which as Swee Boon said are also discussed in the Mulapariyaya S.: http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/m14101.html ..... T:> Thus it seems more this discourse's discussion of "All" is meant to > limit the > use of the word "all" throughout the Buddha's teachings to the six sense > spheres and their objects. .... S:Thus it seems to me that we have to read and consider the words very carefully and definitely need any assistance from the Comy;-) ..... T:>As the following discourse shows, this would > also > include the consciousness, contact, and feelings connected with the > sense spheres > and their objects. Nibbana would lie outside of the word, "all." This > would fit > in with another point made several times in the Canon: that dispassion > is the > highest of all dhammas .... S:We need to check the contexts carefully I think as shown. I see no reason to doubt the Comy explanations given for the above suttas. .... T:( HREF="http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/khuddaka/iti/iti3.html#90">Iti > 90), while the arahant has gone beyond even > dispassion ( HREF="http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/khuddaka/suttanipata/snp4-06.html">Sn > IV.6; HREF="http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/khuddaka/suttanipata/snp4-10.html">Sn > IV.10). .... S:these suttas confirm the arahants have eradicated all kilesa. ..... > ******************* H:> I personally think that to view nibbana as a mind object is to > trivialize it, making it an object, separate, but set in relation with > such dhammas > as manovi~n~nana (sp?), and thereby simultaneously reifying it and > lessening > its unconditioned status. ..... S:I’d rather say it is experienced by supramundane consciousness or is the object of this consciousness. It has to be ‘in relation’ otherwise it cannot be experienced. Because it is experienced by conditioned dhammas, doesn’t make it less unconditioned or reified in anyway. Remember, we discussed it is a nama because as object it bends (namanti) the mind to it. I do appreciate that there are a lot of different opinions on this topic. I’m merely trying to present what I consider to be the ancient Theravada teaching, which I personally find consistent in the texts. ..... H:>I understand nibbana as the complete absence > of the > three poisons. That absence, of course, when realized, radically changes > everything. To me, treating nibbana as a mind-object is to both reify it > and to put > it on a level with mundane phenomena. .... S:For me, I understand the cittas of the arahant to be absent of these defilements and nibbana to be the unconditioned element or reality which has no part of any conditioned reality from any sphere as emphasised in the Udana passages. I think you find it objectionable that it is experienced by any consciousness, but in that case, what would you suggest the supramundane consciousness (magga and phala cittas at the 4 stages of enlightenment) experiences? Why does this reify it in anyway? I’m still trying to understand the point/difficulty which I think is shared by Lee and many others here. Perhaps I’m missing something and I certainly agree with both you and B.Thanissaro that many of the points are subtle and not easy to understand at first glance. As you know, I'm not a Pali scholar or reader and have limited access to Comy notes as well. With metta, Sarah ===== 22973 From: yasalalaka Date: Wed Jun 18, 2003 1:29am Subject: Re: Present moment To All, I would suggest, with all the respect due to you, all who so diligently and with devotion make a very noble effort, giving all your time , to learn this great teaching, that you should read books on Buddhsm that will make you understand the fundamental teachings of the Buddha, without which the higher teachings such as the Abhidhamma, become a field of confusion. For example:( post 22962 Between Mike and Howard) "………….though I suppose the right path factors MIGHT arise with the jhaanas.." "I'm inclined to the view that the right path factors arise simultaneously--that is that when, say, right concentration arises, so do right understanding, right thought, right effort and right mindfulness and right speech, right action or right livelihood on occasion" or "Not to me. Livelihood, speech, and action, right or wrong, are pa~n~natti, to me - concept-only." The Books I suggest you read are: 1. What the Buddha Taught, by Walpola Rahula 2. Being Nobody, Going Nowhere, by Ayya Khema 3. In this Very Life, by Sayadaw U Pandita 4. The Path of Serenity and Insight, by Henepola Gunaratana 5. Zen Mind, beginners Mind, by Suzuki. With metta, Yasa 22974 From: monomuni Date: Tue Jun 17, 2003 3:20am Subject: Aims & Means! Friends: The 5 Abilities (Indriya) Determination is the meaning, purpose & effect of the Ability of Faith. Exertion is the meaning, purpose & effect of the Ability of Enthusiasm. Establishment is the meaning, purpose & effect of the Ability of Awareness. Non-distraction is the meaning, purpose & effect of the Ability of Concentration. Seeing is the meaning, purpose & effect of the Ability of Understanding. The 5 Powers (Bala) Unshakability by skepticism is the meaning, purpose & effect of the Power of Faith. Unshakability by laziness is the meaning, purpose & effect of the Power of Enthusiasm. Unshakability by negligence is the meaning, purpose & effect of the Power of Awareness.. Unshakability by agitating distractions is the meaning, purpose & effect of the Power of Concentration. Unshakability by Ignorance, uncertainty & doubt is the meaning, purpose & effect of the Power of Understanding. The 7 Links to Awakening (Bojjhanga) Foundation is the meaning, purpose & effect of the Awareness Link to Awakening. Investigation is the meaning, purpose & effect of the Curiosity Link to Awakening. Effort is the meaning, purpose & effect of the Enthusiasm Link to Awakening. Intentness upon is the meaning, purpose & effect of the Joy Link to Awakening. Peace is the meaning, purpose & effect of the Tranquility Link to Awakening. Focus is the meaning, purpose & effect of the Concentration Link to Awakening. Reflection is the meaning, purpose & effect of the Equanimity Link to Awakening. The Noble 8-fold Way (Magga) Seeing is the meaning, purpose & effect of Right View. Directing onto is the meaning, purpose & effect of Right Motivation. Embracing is the meaning, purpose & effect of Right Speech. Originating is the meaning, purpose & effect of Right Action. Cleansing is the meaning, purpose & effect of Right Livelihood. Exertion is the meaning, purpose & effect of Right Effort. Establishment is the meaning, purpose & effect of Right Awareness. Non-Distraction is the meaning, purpose & effect of Right Concentration. Source: The Path of Discrimination I (417-30) Patisambhidamagga I [88-91] Spoken by Sariputta. : - ] Samanera Samahita, Sri Lanka monomuni@m... http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Buddha-Direct/ -- A saying of the Buddha from http://metta.lk/ Should one find a good companion to walk with and who is steadfast and upright, one should walk with him with joy so as to overcome all dangers. Random Dhammapada Verse 328 22975 From: monomuni Date: Tue Jun 17, 2003 3:41am Subject: Power of Insight ! Friends: How is Insight a Power ? Through reflection on transience the understanding becomes unshakable by false perception of permanence. Through reflection on misery the understanding becomes unshakable by false perception of pleasure. Through reflection on impersonality the understanding becomes unshakable by false notion of I-me-mine-Self. Through reflection on disgust the understanding becomes unshakable by delight and indulgence. Through reflection on desillusion the understanding becomes unshakable by greed, lust, desire & craving. Through reflection on decay & dissolution the understanding becomes unshakable by initiation & taking up new. Through reflection on relinguisment the understanding becomes unshakable by the clinging of attachment. Through reflection on these contemplations the understanding becomes unshakable by uncertainty, doubt & ignorance. Thus is Insight a transforming Power! Source: The Path of Discrimination I (455) Patisambhidamagga I [98-9] Spoken by Sariputta. : - ] Samanera Samahita, Sri Lanka monomuni@m... http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Buddha-Direct/ Friendship is the GREATEST !! & the whole Motivation behind the entire Noble Life ... -- A saying of the Buddha from http://metta.lk/ Self-conquest is, indeed, far greater than the conquest of all other folks. Random Dhammapada Verse 104 22976 From: Lee Dillion Date: Wed Jun 18, 2003 7:03am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sabba Sutta contd;-) Sarah wrote: > S:For me, I understand the cittas of the arahant to be absent of these > defilements and nibbana to be the unconditioned element or reality which > has no part of any conditioned reality from any sphere as emphasised in > the Udana passages. > > I think you find it objectionable that it is experienced by any > consciousness, but in that case, what would you suggest the supramundane > consciousness (magga and phala cittas at the 4 stages of enlightenment) > experiences? > > Why does this reify it in anyway? I’m still trying to understand the > point/difficulty which I think is shared by Lee and many others here. > Perhaps I’m missing something and I certainly agree with both you and > B.Thanissaro that many of the points are subtle and not easy to understand > at first glance. As you know, I'm not a Pali scholar or reader and have > limited access to Comy notes as well. Hi Sarah: I meant to get back to you on this and other points, but time has flown by this summer what with a full teaching load and occassional babysitting for a grandson, so I apologize for the tardiness. The point about reification is illustrated, perhaps, by the phrasing you use above to describe nibbana "to be the unconditioned element or reality which has no part of any conditioned reality." The caution or concern is that a person who is focused on discerning the true nature of reality may read your phrasing as suggesting that nibbana is a thing or place, and that the qualification that it "has no part of any conditioned reality" merely reinforces that suggestion by allowing some to go on and assert that this unconditioned element exists only in another sphere of reality, a transcendent sphere, much like the Christian heaven. I mention this not as some academic possibility but as the reality of many years of discussing this very point with a variety of people who read the Udana passage as a part of a syncretic attempt to see Buddhism as part of a larger monistic religion. Thus, my strong preference is to understand nibanna with as little reification language as possible without sacrificing the salvational value of the term. Hope this helps some. Will try to explain more if need be. 22977 From: m. nease Date: Wed Jun 18, 2003 7:26am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Present moment Thanks, Yasa, I have read several of the books you note below. I've also met and 'studied' under Sayadaw U Pandita. Mostly these days, I'm more interested in the Pali texts. mike ----- Original Message ----- From: yasalalaka To: Sent: Wednesday, June 18, 2003 1:29 AM Subject: [dsg] Re: Present moment To All, I would suggest, with all the respect due to you, all who so diligently and with devotion make a very noble effort, giving all your time , to learn this great teaching, that you should read books on Buddhsm that will make you understand the fundamental teachings of the Buddha, without which the higher teachings such as the Abhidhamma, become a field of confusion. For example:( post 22962 Between Mike and Howard) ".....though I suppose the right path factors MIGHT arise with the jhaanas.." "I'm inclined to the view that the right path factors arise simultaneously--that is that when, say, right concentration arises, so do right understanding, right thought, right effort and right mindfulness and right speech, right action or right livelihood on occasion" or "Not to me. Livelihood, speech, and action, right or wrong, are pa~n~natti, to me - concept-only." The Books I suggest you read are: 1. What the Buddha Taught, by Walpola Rahula 2. Being Nobody, Going Nowhere, by Ayya Khema 3. In this Very Life, by Sayadaw U Pandita 4. The Path of Serenity and Insight, by Henepola Gunaratana 5. Zen Mind, beginners Mind, by Suzuki. With metta, Yasa 22978 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Wed Jun 18, 2003 8:18am Subject: Re: Present moment Hi James, Thank you for your reply. How is the discourse Maha-cattarisaka Sutta choppy and illogical? Besides the part at the end of the discourse, is there any other part or point of the discourse that you don't agree with? In terms of following the noble eightfold path, I do find that Maha- cattarisaka Sutta illustrate a structural relation of the path factors. And this shows that following the noble eightfold path is an integral, structured practice, with right view as the forerunner. Another instance of description of the relation of the path factors can be found in Samyutta Nikaya XLV.1 Avijja Sutta Ignorance http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn45-001.html In the discourse, the Buddha described the progression of the rise of the path factors. Again, right view is the forerunner. Your comment is appreciated. Peace, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: [snip] > > Hi Victor, > > Hmmm…this is a very strange sutta indeed. Frankly, I don't believe > the Lord Buddha gave this sutta. It is very choppy, illogical, and > doesn't really focus on one central idea. And that part at the end > of the sutta where the Buddha appears to get very defensive about the > sutta and how no one should oppose it without the risk of "criticism, > opposition, & reproach". That wasn't his style at all. I don't > agree with this sutta. > > Metta, James 22979 From: Date: Wed Jun 18, 2003 4:20am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Present moment Hi, James (and Victor) - In a message dated 6/18/03 9:23:34 AM Eastern Daylight Time, buddhatrue@y... writes: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "yu_zhonghao" > wrote: > >Hi James and all, > > > >Right view is expounded in various ways in the discourses. In this > >message, I will try to explain how I understand right view, quoting > >mostly from Maha-cattarisaka Sutta (MN 117) -- The Great Forty. > >This discourse has a fairly complex structure. However, it does > >illustrate the relation between right view and other path factors. > >Hopefully this message will bring up some beneficial discussion. > > Hi Victor, > > Hmmm…this is a very strange sutta indeed. Frankly, I don't believe > the Lord Buddha gave this sutta. It is very choppy, illogical, and > doesn't really focus on one central idea. And that part at the end > of the sutta where the Buddha appears to get very defensive about the > sutta and how no one should oppose it without the risk of "criticism, > opposition, &reproach". That wasn't his style at all. I don't > agree with this sutta. > > Metta, James > > =============================== James, I do agree that this sutta is unusual in certain respects. In particular, I find odd the beginning portion which goes as follows: *********************************** How is right view the forerunner? One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. One discerns wrong resolve as wrong resolve, and right resolve as right resolve. One discerns wrong speech as wrong speech, and right speech as right speech. One discerns wrong action as wrong action, and right action as right action. One discerns wrong livelihood as wrong livelihood, and right livelihood as right livelihood. This discernment is one's right view. It is the forerunner. Without it, right view, right resolve, right speech, right action, and right livelihood are impossible. ************************************ What this segment does is define Right View as a particular application of sati. It defines it as mindfulness of the first 5 steps of the 8-fold noble path. Now, it is unusual to define Right View, I think, as an instance of sati and not as mundane or supramundane wisdom, especially since sammasati is a path factor of its own, distinct from Right View. Also, this makes Right View (as sati) a part of what Right View views, a form of reflexive reference. That, however, isn't so strange - after all, the fourth noble truth is the 8-fold noble path, and in some places the 1st factor of that path (which is exactly what we are discussing) is defined as knowledge of the four noble truths themselves! All this being the case, it is my impression that the M. Nikaya is one of the collections that is considered by most "experts" to be most reliable. There is,of course, a good possibility that many suttas have come down to us in slightly garbled form, including suttas from this collection. My own opinion is that a modicum of (what some call "mundane") Right View must come first, else there would be no beginning to one's practice. Also, inasmuch as liberating wisdom is the diamond whose sharpness ultimately uproots the fetters, I see Right View in its supramundane form as coming last. So, in that sense, pa~n~na is the alpha and omega of the path. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 22980 From: Date: Wed Jun 18, 2003 4:26am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Present moment Hi, Mike - I agee that inclinations/dispositions (to abstain from wrong livelihood, action, and speech) can, indeed, be paramattha dhammas, but I distinguish such from the livelihood, action, and speech, which are, indeed, "complexes". With metta, Howard In a message dated 6/18/03 9:28:32 AM Eastern Daylight Time, mlnease@z... writes: > > Hi Howard, > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: > Sent: Tuesday, June 17, 2003 8:24 PM > Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Present moment > > > >>>Also, I think that Right Livelihood, Right Speech, and Right Action are > >>>problematical for this view. > >> > >>They don't seem so to me--but they would only arise in a moment of > >>deliberate abstinence from wrong livelihood, speech or action, with the > >>other right factors present. Does this make sense? > >> > >------------------------------------------------------ > >Howard: > > Not to me. Livelihood, speech, and action, right or wrong, are > >pa~n~natti, to me - concept-only. > >------------------------------------------------------ > > To me this is back to 'conventional' vs. 'ultimate' expression. Speaking > conventionally, all the path factors refer to pa~n~natti, ultimately they > all refer to mental factors, as I understand it. Your posts have made me > look more closely at the abstinences and here is Bhikkhu Bodhi's explanation > from CMA: > > "The abstinences: The viratis are thre beautiful mental factors which are > responsible for the deliberate abstinence from wrong conduct by way of > speech, action and livelihood. In mundane consciousness, the viratis are > operative only on an occasion when one intentionally refrains from a wrong > mode of conduct for which an opportunity has arisen..." This does sound > like pa~n~natti to me--and vohaara sacca. > > A little further on, he writes: > > "The commentators distinguish three types of virati: (1) natural > abstinence; (2) abstinence by undertaking the precepts; and (3) abstinence > by eradication. > (1) Natural abstinence (sampattavirati) is the abstinence from evil deeds > when the opportunity arises to engage in them, due to the consideration of > one's social position, age, level of education etc. An example is > refraining from theft out of concern that one's reputation would be hurt if > one is caught. > (2) Abstinence by undertaking precepts (samaadaanavirati) is the abstinence > from evil deeds because one has undertaken to observe precepts, for example, > the Five Precepts of abstaining from killing, stealing, sexual misconduct, > false speech and intoxicants. > (3) Abstinence by eradication (samucchedavirati) is the abstinence > associated with the supramundane path consciousness, which arises > eradicating the dispositions towards evil deeds. Whereas the previous two > are mundane, this one is supramundane." > > The first two do seem to me to refer to concepts, the third to mental > factors. The third also seems consistent to me with the idea of the > abstinences arising with the other right path factors. > > mike > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 22981 From: Date: Wed Jun 18, 2003 4:30am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Present moment Hi, Yasa - In a message dated 6/18/03 9:39:45 AM Eastern Daylight Time, charlesperera@h... writes: > The Books I suggest you read are: > > 1. What the Buddha Taught, by Walpola Rahula > 2. Being Nobody, Going Nowhere, by Ayya Khema > 3. In this Very Life, by Sayadaw U Pandita > 4. The Path of Serenity and Insight, by Henepola Gunaratana > 5. Zen Mind, beginners Mind, by Suzuki. > > > With metta, > Yasa > ============================ Thank you for the kind suggestion. It happens that I am not an Abhidhammika, but that I do find things of value in the Abhidhamma. In fact, as some on the list may tell you, I have some not-so-crypto Mahayanist tendencies! Oh, BTW, I have read, and reread, all 5 books you list, and I own all but the 1st. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 22982 From: yasalalaka Date: Wed Jun 18, 2003 8:52am Subject: Re: meditation vs. just thinking about it Chris, This is how I see, the way out of your problem: __________________________________________________________________ You said: Whether by meditation or just my everyday contemplation, I think I have begun to see the impermanence of life. I recognize many things that I do as reactions caused by craving or aversion, for example. But this leads to my next conundrum. Yasa: Seeing the impermanence in everyday life whether by contemplation or meditation may avoid tension, build calm and serenity, develop positive relationship and make one happy. That may also be called a way of life based on mindfulness. If you are always mindful of what you do, what you say and what you think, you will not react to any attachments, anger or delusions. ____________________________________________________________ You said: I have heard often that when a person starts meditating, "It will get worse before it gets better". I believe that through beginning to recognize why I react as I do, I have been getting very anxious, even scared at times, that I need to leave some familiar and "safe" behaviour patterns behind. But this anxiety has often caused me to fall back hard on these familiar patterns (eating too much or watching too much TV, for example). At times, my mind races with a million thoughts, and I feel on the verge of losing control. Yasa: We often ask questions from people who are not quite conversant with the subject on which we pose questions. Then the answers we get are not from first hand experience but from what has been deduced from hear-say, if we do not investigate, it is natural that we allow a prejudice to dominate our judgements. The internet is a treasure- house of information. But you should know where to get the answers from. There are all types of misconceptions about meditation. If you are a Buddhist, you would know that meditation is part and parcel of the Buddha's teachings. Those who deny that, are probably talking of another teaching. However, I do not go along with the formula" you will get worse, before you will get better". It is true that when you start meditation for the first time you may see changes. They are the least to be frightened about. When you start meditating, using your breath as your object of meditation, you will have to keep the mind on the lower part of the nostrils on the upper lip where the breath touches, as it comes in and goes out, as you breath normally, without forcing. Your eyes will be closed. First difficulty will come along with your mind running away without your even knowing it !. You will have to get it back and keep it on the breath. You may even get desperate, may even try to give up meditation… what a bother with this mind wandering away all the time. Try counting the breath in groups of ten In breath –one-, out breath- two-etc up to ten and back again from one. After some time you will have no trouble, as you sit down to meditate, you will find that the mind has become obedient and remains in place for longer periods without wandering. away. There after you may notice number of other things you did not notice earlier. Such as body scratching, twitching, pains, do not worry this means that your mind is beginning to settle down. Those things had always been there but you begin to see them only now because, the mind is not preoccupied by other matters. You just note them as scratching, paining and they will disappear. Then when thoughts arise do not either react to them or try to understand them, just say to yourself "thinking `thinking," and when they have passed away bring the mind back to the breath, do the same thing when you, hear a sound. And so the feelings of the body, "cold, cold" or "warm, warm", and same to mental states, " anger, jealousy, tiredness, stressful, nervous, depressive" just notice when ever the emotions are present, same when there is fear, anxiety etc. When ever your emotions or feelings change be aware of them. Be open to them, accept them as mental states that arise and fall away. Do not try to suppress them, let them come …they are the uninvited guests…just be kind to them.. they will not stay long… ______________________________________________________________________ You ask: Can anyone relate to this? And can anyone help me with any advice on what to do? Yasa: When you start meditation you have to prepare yourself for it. First you should build confidence in the Buddha, then in the Dhamma-the teachings, and then the Sangha-who are the protectors of the Dhamma, who brought it to us. Then you should assure that you have kept the minimum of five precepts, and repeat them, consciously, and remind your self of the nine qualities of the Buddha ( Iti pi so bhagava araham samma sambuddho,vijjacarana sampanno, sugato loka vidu, anuttaro,purisa dhamma sarati satta,deva manussanam buddho, bhagavati"). These preliminary preparations will protect you in the course of your meditation. You should of course decide for how long you would meditate (perhaps keep a digital timer, which is silent) and after the meditation, extend waves of compassion, universal love (metta) to all beings in the 10 cardinal points, and transfer part of what ever merit you may have acquired to those dear to you, who have departed this life and wish yourself happiness and contentment and get up consciously and walk away mindfully. ___________________________________________________________________ You say: I have done some meditation: I did the 10-day Vipassana course taught by Goenka 5 months ago, and since then have been doing anapanna meditation infrequently. I am almost afraid to do more, for the reasons above. Yasa: Do not have any fear, because what you are going to undertake is a wholesome activity, and in that, all those wholesome elements around you will be your protective shield. With metta, Yasa 22983 From: yasalalaka Date: Wed Jun 18, 2003 9:15am Subject: Re: Present moment --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Yasa - > > In a message dated 6/18/03 9:39:45 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > charlesperera@h... writes: > > > The Books I suggest you read are: > > > > 1. What the Buddha Taught, by Walpola Rahula > > 2. Being Nobody, Going Nowhere, by Ayya Khema > > 3. In this Very Life, by Sayadaw U Pandita > > 4. The Path of Serenity and Insight, by Henepola Gunaratana > > 5. Zen Mind, beginners Mind, by Suzuki. > > > > > > With metta, > > Yasa > > > ============================ > Thank you for the kind suggestion. It happens that I am not an > Abhidhammika, but that I do find things of value in the Abhidhamma. In fact, as some > on the list may tell you, I have some not-so-crypto Mahayanist tendencies! > Oh, BTW, I have read, and reread, all 5 books you list, and I own all > but the 1st. > > With metta, > Howard > _________________________________Yasa________________________ Dear Howard "Thank you for the kind suggestion. It happens that I am not an Abhidhammika, but that I do find things of value in the Abhidhamma. " (says Howard) Yasa: I did not say any thing to the contrary. Abhidhamma is difficult to understand, but it is certainly very enriching to study it. It is so profound, manifestly interesting. What I say is that the Abhidhamma cannot be used for the purpose of meditation- which is the only way to Nibbana. It is a pity, if we hang onto the Abhidhamma teachings, hoping for the realisation of the Nibbana, we will have to hang on for a long time. The Buddha's teachings are there, simple and clear, and following it diligently, you will in this very life, become at least a stream entrant, and avoid rebirth in a lower plane of existence. As a saying in Zen goes, by following the Abhidhamma to reach Nibbana, we are taking the finger for the moon. with metta, Yasa PS: The first Book in the list: What the Buddha Taught by Walpola Rahula is by far the best book for its simplicity. It includes all that is important in Buddhist Teaching. It is a classic of its kind; The One I forgot to include is the "The Heart of the Buddhist Meditation by Nanaponika Thera"- another Classic worth reading and owning a copy. 22984 From: Date: Wed Jun 18, 2003 5:46am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Present moment Hi, Yasa - In a message dated 6/18/03 12:28:47 PM Eastern Daylight Time, charlesperera@h... writes: > The One I forgot to include is the "The Heart of the Buddhist > Meditation by Nanaponika Thera"- another Classic worth reading and > owning a copy. > > =============================== Yes, I own that as well - plus his works "Abhidhamma Studies"and "The Vision of Dhamma," this latter work being a wonderful compilation of his writings which, unfortunately, may be out of print now. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 22985 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Wed Jun 18, 2003 11:38am Subject: [dsg] Re: Present moment Hi Howard, The segment that you mentioned is not a direct quote from the discourse. However, some sentences are taken from the discourse. Let me add the quotation marks as well as appending the sentence "This is one's right view." in each quote in the segment that you mentioned: *********************************** How is right view the forerunner? One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view. One discerns wrong resolve as wrong resolve, and right resolve as right resolve. This is one's right view. One discerns wrong speech as wrong speech, and right speech as right speech. This is one's right view. One discerns wrong action as wrong action, and right action as right action. This is one's right view. One discerns wrong livelihood as wrong livelihood, and right livelihood as right livelihood. This is one's right view. This discernment is one's right view. It is the forerunner. Without it, right view, right resolve, right speech, right action, and right livelihood are impossible. *********************************** Right view is not the same as right mindfulness. In the discourse, right mindfulness is described as following: One is mindful to abandon wrong view & to enter & remain in right view: This is one's right mindfulness. One is mindful to abandon wrong resolve & to enter & remain in right resolve: This is one's right mindfulness. One is mindful to abandon wrong speech & to enter & remain in right speech: This is one's right mindfulness. One is mindful to abandon wrong action & to enter & remain in right action: This is one's right mindfulness. One is mindful to abandon wrong livelihood & to enter & remain in right livelihood: This is one's right mindfulness. Two points that you bring up that I also thought about are: 1. Right view is reflexive. 2. Although right view is not defined in terms of the four noble truths in the discourse, it is implied that with right view that is without fermentation, one knows the four noble truths. Since noble eightfold path is the noble truth of the path leading to the cessation of dukkha, one has to see the four noble truths to see noble eightfold path. In other words, while the four noble truths include the noble eightfold path, the factor of right view in the eightfold noble path include knowing the four noble truths. Your comment is appreciated. Peace, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, James (and Victor) - > [snip] > James, I do agree that this sutta is unusual in certain respects. In > particular, I find odd the beginning portion which goes as follows: > > *********************************** > How is right view the forerunner? > > One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. > One discerns wrong resolve as wrong resolve, and right resolve as > right resolve. > One discerns wrong speech as wrong speech, and right speech as right > speech. > One discerns wrong action as wrong action, and right action as right > action. > One discerns wrong livelihood as wrong livelihood, and right > livelihood as right livelihood. > > This discernment is one's right view. It is the forerunner. > Without it, right view, right resolve, right speech, right action, > and right livelihood are impossible. > ************************************ > > What this segment does is define Right View as a particular > application of sati. It defines it as mindfulness of the first 5 steps of the 8-fold > noble path. Now, it is unusual to define Right View, I think, as an instance of > sati and not as mundane or supramundane > wisdom, especially since sammasati is a path factor of its own, distinct > from Right View. Also, this makes Right View (as sati) a part of what Right View > views, a form of reflexive reference. That, however, isn't so strange - after > all, the fourth noble truth is the 8-fold noble path, and in some places the > 1st factor of that path (which is exactly what we are discussing) is defined as > knowledge of the four noble truths themselves! > All this being the case, it is my impression that the M. Nikaya is one > of the collections that is considered by most "experts" to be most reliable. > There is,of course, a good possibility that many suttas have come down to us > in slightly garbled form, including suttas from this collection. > My own opinion is that a modicum of (what some call "mundane") Right > View must come first, else there would be no beginning to one's practice. Also, > inasmuch as liberating wisdom is the diamond whose sharpness ultimately > uproots the fetters, I see Right View in its supramundane form as coming last. So, > in that sense, pa~n~na is the alpha and omega of the path. > > With metta, > Howard 22986 From: Date: Wed Jun 18, 2003 7:51am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Present moment Hi, Victor - In a message dated 6/18/03 2:44:21 PM Eastern Daylight Time, yu_zhonghao@y... writes: > > Hi Howard, > > The segment that you mentioned is not a direct quote from the > discourse. However, some sentences are taken from the discourse. > Let me add the quotation marks as well as appending the > sentence "This is one's right view." in each quote in the segment > that you mentioned: > > *********************************** > How is right view the forerunner? > > > One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. > This is one's right view. > > > > One discerns wrong resolve as wrong resolve, and right resolve as > right resolve. This is one's right view. > > > > One discerns wrong speech as wrong speech, and right speech as right > speech. This is one's right view. > > > > One discerns wrong action as wrong action, and right action as right > action. This is one's right view. > > > > One discerns wrong livelihood as wrong livelihood, and right > livelihood as right livelihood. This is one's right view. > > > This discernment is one's right view. It is the forerunner. Without > it, right view, right resolve, right speech, right action, and right > livelihood are impossible. > > *********************************** > ---------------------------------------------------- Howard: Ahh, thank you for the clarification. ---------------------------------------------------- > > Right view is not the same as right mindfulness. In the discourse, > right mindfulness is described as following: > > > One is mindful to abandon wrong view &to enter &remain in right > view: This is one's right mindfulness. > > > > One is mindful to abandon wrong resolve &to enter &remain in right > resolve: This is one's right mindfulness. > > > > One is mindful to abandon wrong speech &to enter &remain in right > speech: This is one's right mindfulness. > > > > One is mindful to abandon wrong action &to enter &remain in right > action: This is one's right mindfulness. > > > > One is mindful to abandon wrong livelihood &to enter &remain in > right livelihood: This is one's right mindfulness. > > ---------------------------------------------------- Howard: Okay. I was taking 'discernment' in the sutta as English for 'sati'. Perhaps it only means "awareness" or "consciusness". --------------------------------------------------- > > Two points that you bring up that I also thought about are: > > 1. Right view is reflexive. > > 2. Although right view is not defined in terms of the four noble > truths in the discourse, it is implied that with right view that is > without fermentation, one knows the four noble truths. Since noble > eightfold path is the noble truth of the path leading to the > cessation of dukkha, one has to see the four noble truths to see > noble eightfold path. In other words, while the four noble truths > include the noble eightfold path, the factor of right view in the > eightfold noble path include knowing the four noble truths. > > Your comment is appreciated. > > Peace, > Victor > > =========================== Thanks for the reply, Victor. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 22987 From: rjkjp1 Date: Wed Jun 18, 2003 1:44pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Sabba Sutta contd;-) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Lee Dillion wrote: > > Hi Sarah: > > I meant to get back to you on this and other points, but time has flown > by this summer what with a full teaching load and occassional > babysitting for a grandson, so I apologize for the tardiness. > > The point about reification is illustrated, perhaps, by the phrasing you > use above to describe nibbana "to be the unconditioned element or > reality which has no part of any conditioned reality." The caution or > concern is that a person who is focused on discerning the true nature of > reality may read your phrasing as suggesting that nibbana is a thing or > place, and that the qualification that it "has no part of any > conditioned reality" merely reinforces that suggestion by allowing some > to go on and assert that this unconditioned element exists only in > another sphere of reality, a transcendent sphere, much like the > Christian heaven. > > __________ Dear Lee, It is certainly true that some Buddhists do use the sutta from the udana in the way you suggest. Udana VIII.1 But the Theravada understanding - as recorded in the comentaries- is very clear that Nibbana is the absence of any conditioned phenomena. It is more empty than even empty space. Clearly it could not be a place or thing in any way. Robertk Sarah quoted the commentary: (p.1012 Udana Comy): "...The Lord, having thus indicated, face to face, the existence, in its highest sense, of the unconditioned element, next says `Wherein there is neither earth, nor water' and so on so as to indicate its own nature via an elimination of things that are the antithesis thereof. Just as nibbana is nowhere (to be found) amidst conditioned (sankhata) things, since it has as its own nature that which is antithetical to all formations (sankhara), so are all conditioned things (not to be found) therein either, for the collection of things conditioned and unconditioned is (a thing)not witnessed......there is neither the earth element whose characteristic is that of hardness, nor the water element whose characteristic is that of oozing, nor the fire element whose characteristic is that of heat, nor the wind element whose characteristic is that of distending......absence therein of the four great elements, the absence of all derived materiality....absence..of any becoming associated with (the world of) sense desires and (the world of) form.....Even though its own nature is one in which there is an absence of forms, there is next said, so as to indicate the absence within nibbana of any of the states belonging to becoming in the formless (sphere), `Nor that base consisting of endless space......nor that base consisting of neither perception nor non-perception'." 22988 From: girish kumar Date: Wed Jun 18, 2003 0:55pm Subject: pic of lumbini in nepal (birth place of lord Buddha) Hello friends , this is the pic of birth place of lord Buddha at lumbini in present day nepal 26 kms from indian border sonauli . The pillar is Emperor Ashoka's marking his arrival and proclamation . The glass case is the actual spot of birth of lord Buddha containing a stone slab with a baby's footprint in an conditioned covered platform opposite the ashokan pillar . 22989 From: Jim Anderson Date: Wed Jun 18, 2003 4:49pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Dating of texts, to Jim. advice needed. Hi Sarah, > In the references to the 9 angas (ninefold styles), do you understand the > Jataka category to refer just to the verses or also to 'present' life > story and/or the past life story? If it is just to the verses, why would > these not fall under the verse category in yr opinion? I ask this because > I was reminded of an earlier discussion and quote of yours which Christine > posted concerning the Jatakas (which I'll add at the end if I can find it > easily). It is still my understanding that the Jataka volumes found in the Tipitaka proper consist of the verses only. I think your question: if so, then why do they not fall under the verse (gaathaa) category? is best addressed by the DN subcommentary (Sv-p.t 41) and one might also want to check the .tiikaa on the relevant Vinayanidaana passage and whatever else one can find. Sorry, I don't know of any translation. There is actually a two page discussion on the nine categories in the DN subcty giving some kind of criteria which I have not studied so I really can't speak for it. In early 1999, Richard P. Hayes on Buddha-L raised the question of the canonicity of the Jatakas and I have saved some of the short reponses by John Strong, L.S. Cousins, and myself where I pointed out the subcty passage. Perhaps I should string them together into one message with some editing and post here? I don't think it would be any longer than one of your long posts. The atthakathas do preserve a great deal of what the Buddha said which are not recorded in the Tipitaka such as things said to Ananda and the stories that go with the Dhammapada & Jataka verses. I have come across instances of the term 'buddhavacana' being defined as the Tipitaka combined with the commentaries (saa.t.thakatha.m). The commentaries are like companion volumes. Thanks for quoting me from an earlier post and also the PED definitions of jaataka which were interesting to read. Aggavamsa (in the Saddaniti) gives two derivations for this word. One takes the 'ka' part to come from the root 'ke' (to sound) giving the verb 'kaayati' (= katheti or pakaaseti -- it explains what has been before (jaata.m = bhuuta.m = atiita.m) in reference to the Blessed One's previous conduct). There is a similar explanation given in Sariputta's Vinaya tika. The second derivation takes the 'ka' as a secondary affix and the word just means 'birth'. It is the first derivation that is applied to the Jataka title and anga. I was thinking that the Cariyapitaka could fit the Jataka criteria. Best wishes, Jim 22990 From: Date: Wed Jun 18, 2003 5:02pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism XIV, 3 Hi Sarah, I was hoping there might be a commentarial note on 'padhana' (effort/endeavour) as the distinguishing characteristic between consciousness and understanding (panna), but since ~Nanamoli didn't mention one maybe there isn't. Anyway, it is interesting to bear in mind that consciousness can cognize impermanence nonconceptually (?) but, as we all know, it doesn't make the *path* difference. 'Understanding' in itself doesn't add any extra content but perhaps it brings things together. If anyone else has any other bits of info on panna and how it brings about the manifestation of the path I would be interested in reading it. Larry 22991 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Wed Jun 18, 2003 5:03pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Sabba Sutta contd;-) Hi Sarah (and Howard), Mind-object/idea/dhammayatana is impermanent, dukkha/unsatisfactory. Nibbana, the cessation of dukkha, unborn, unmade, unbecome, unfabricated, is not and can not be mind-object/idea/dhammayatana. If you say that nibbana is mind-object/idea/dhammayatana, do you mean the idea about nibbana is mind-object/idea/dhammayatana? Consciousness is impermanent, dukkha/unsatisfactory. Consciousness that is signless, boundless, all-luminous is impermanent, dukkha/unsatisfactory. This consciousness is not and can not be nibbana, the cessation of dukkah, unborn, unmade, unbecome, unfabricated. Your comment is appreciated. Peace, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > Hi Howard, > [snip] > ..... > S:I've given the comy summary and explanation of nibbana as included in > dhammayatana in this context. > ..... [snip] > Consciousness that is signless, boundless, all- luminous. > Bodhi - comy suggests "it can be cognized". > ..... [snip] > S:This reminds me of a discussion I had about the simile of the raft and > of it being the attachment to the raft that should be abandoned. I agree > with Swee Boon's comments. B.Bodhi gives the Pali and links to other > references detailing pari~n~na, `full understanding in terms of the > destruction of lust' etc and pari~n~na as `ultimate abandonment'. > See the detailed discussion Nina and I had on the details of the terms > which as Swee Boon said are also discussed in the Mulapariyaya S.: > http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/m14101.html > ..... [snip] > S:Thus it seems to me that we have to read and consider the words very > carefully and definitely need any assistance from the Comy;-) > ..... [snip] > S:We need to check the contexts carefully I think as shown. I see no > reason to doubt the Comy explanations given for the above suttas. [snip] > S:I'd rather say it is experienced by supramundane consciousness or is the > object of this consciousness. It has to be `in relation' otherwise it > cannot be experienced. Because it is experienced by conditioned dhammas, > doesn't make it less unconditioned or reified in anyway. Remember, we > discussed it is a nama because as object it bends (namanti) the mind to > it. I do appreciate that there are a lot of different opinions on this > topic. I'm merely trying to present what I consider to be the ancient > Theravada teaching, which I personally find consistent in the texts. [snip] > .... > S:For me, I understand the cittas of the arahant to be absent of these > defilements and nibbana to be the unconditioned element or reality which > has no part of any conditioned reality from any sphere as emphasised in > the Udana passages. > > I think you find it objectionable that it is experienced by any > consciousness, but in that case, what would you suggest the supramundane > consciousness (magga and phala cittas at the 4 stages of enlightenment) > experiences? > > Why does this reify it in anyway? I'm still trying to understand the > point/difficulty which I think is shared by Lee and many others here. > Perhaps I'm missing something and I certainly agree with both you and > B.Thanissaro that many of the points are subtle and not easy to understand > at first glance. As you know, I'm not a Pali scholar or reader and have > limited access to Comy notes as well. > > With metta, > > Sarah 22992 From: Date: Wed Jun 18, 2003 1:30pm Subject: The Functional Efficacy of Well Grounded Pa~n~natti Hi, all - I pose what might be a dilemma for some: In a person's body, there is a brain. For each eye, there is an optic nerve. The signals sent along the two optic nerves are merged by the brain into a single image. The brain and the two optic nerves are, from the perspective of Abhidhamma, or at least Abhidhamma as interpreted by some, as pa~n~natti, concept-only. But the sight that is produced (the "image") is a paramattha dhamma. What we have then, is a paramattha dhamma arising with non-existent pa~n~natti as causes and conditions! I think that there is a solution to the apparent dilemma. The solution is that it is not the non-existent pa~n~natti that are the actual causes and conditions, but the paramattha dhamma that underly them which are. There are a couple more thoughts that occur to me in this regard. One of these is that it just as the pa~n~natti of optic nerves and human brain can serve as mental short-hands for complexes of "actualities", so can they be considered to be functionally efficacious in the same short-hand manner of speaking. Another thought that occurs to me is that the example of the two optic nerves, the brain, and resulting sights could pose a dilemma for a radical phenomenalist like me (or for a vijnanavadin) who views rupas as not existing indepe ndent of discernment (vi~n~nana). In my case, what seems to be the solution for *my* dilemma is my notion of "subjunctive conditionality" which says, not that to exist to be perceived, but, rather, to exist is to be perceivable. Comments on any of this, anyone? With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 22993 From: Date: Wed Jun 18, 2003 2:00pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Sabba Sutta contd;-) Hi, Victor (and Sarah) - In a message dated 6/18/03 8:05:17 PM Eastern Daylight Time, yu_zhonghao@y... writes: > Hi Sarah (and Howard), > > Mind-object/idea/dhammayatana is impermanent, dukkha/unsatisfactory. > > Nibbana, the cessation of dukkha, unborn, unmade, unbecome, > unfabricated, is not and can not be mind-object/idea/dhammayatana. > > If you say that nibbana is mind-object/idea/dhammayatana, do you > mean the idea about nibbana is mind-object/idea/dhammayatana? > > Consciousness is impermanent, dukkha/unsatisfactory. Consciousness > that is signless, boundless, all-luminous is impermanent, > dukkha/unsatisfactory. This consciousness is not and can not be > nibbana, the cessation of dukkah, unborn, unmade, unbecome, > unfabricated. > > Your comment is appreciated. > > Peace, > Victor > ================================ I have sympathy with what you write here, Victor, with regard to the question of nibbana being a mind-object. I agree with you! But with regard to the rest of your post, a couple questions do occur to me: If nibbana is the *cessation* of dukkha (rather than its *absence*), then it is an event which occurs in time. And then is it not odd to describe it as unborn, unmade, unbecome, and unfabricated? [In a sense that I can grasp but cannot express, I can see absence of dukkha as existing always. But I cannot grasp *cessation* of dukkha as always existing, being a temporal event.] Also, with regard to a "consciousness" that is signless, boundless, and all-luminous, what would be the object of such a consciousness? This "consciousness" that you refer to is not the same as the infinite mind of the 6th jhana, which has infinite space as its object. If this "consciousness" had an object, would it still be boundless?. And if we should imagine that such a "consciousness" is what there is beyond the death of an arahant, would it not then be nibbana, and would it not be permanent? Perhaps there should be a word different from 'consciousness' used. Perhaps just 'nama'. I'm not giving answers here, just musing. Just voicing some points to ponder. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 22994 From: monomuni Date: Wed Jun 18, 2003 10:12pm Subject: The 13 Heads! Friends: THE 13 HEADS: The Head of all Obstruction is Craving. The Head of all Mental Chains is the Conceit 'I Am' (asmi-mana). The Head of all Misapprehension is Wrong View. The Head of all Distraction is the agitation of restlessness. The Head of all Mental Defilement is the not knowing of Ignorance. The Head of all Determination is the confidence of Faith. The Head of all Exerted Effort is the energy of Enthusiasm. The Head of all Mental Foundation is Mindful Awareness. The Head of all Focus of Non-Distraction is Concentration. The Head of all Seeing right Through is Understanding. The Head of all Occurence & (re)Appearance is the life Ability. The Head of all Levels is the release into Liberation. The Head of all Construction is the stilling in Ceasing. Source: Path of Discrimination I (470) Patisambhidamagga I [102] Friendship is the Greatest ! The entire Motivation behind all of the Noble Life. Yeah! Samanera Samahita Email: monomuni@m... WWW: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Buddha-Direct : - ] -- A saying of the Buddha from http://metta.lk/ Mind is the forerunner of (all evil) states. Mind is chief; mind-made are they. If one speaks or acts with wicked mind, because of that, suffering follows one, even as the wheel follows the hoof of the draught-ox. Random Dhammapada Verse 1 22995 From: Sarah Date: Thu Jun 19, 2003 1:02am Subject: Calling Kom & Num (was: Sabba Sutta contd;-)) Hi Victor (& Howard), Sorry for the delay in replying to your earlier post on the Aditta-pariyaya Sutta (Fire Sermon). http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/m18834.html I’ll try to comment here as well. You’re making many excellent points, I think and for once I understand just what those points are;-);-) --- yu_zhonghao wrote: > Mind-object/idea/dhammayatana is impermanent, dukkha/unsatisfactory. > > Nibbana, the cessation of dukkha, unborn, unmade, unbecome, > unfabricated, is not and can not be mind-object/idea/dhammayatana. ..... I’ve given Abhidhamma references which suggest Nibbana is included in dhammayatana. Furthermore, as we saw in the Comy notes to the Sabba Sutta, at least in some contexts nibbana is definitely included. In other contexts, as expected from the context and as confirmed by the Comy, e.g 1(4) under ‘The Impermanent’ in Salyatanasamyutta, nibbana is specifically excluded. I appreciate that for anyone who does not accept the Abhidhamma texts or commentaries as authentic sources of the Buddha’s word, then these points may be rejected. In his intro to the Salayatansamyutta, B.Bodhi writes: ***** “...the Theravada exegetical tradition, beginning already from the Abhidhamma period, understands the six pairs of bases as a complete scheme of classification capable of accomodating all the factors of existence mentioned in the Nikayas. This conception of the six bases probably originated from the Sabba Sutta, in which the Buddha says tht the six pairs of bases are “the all” apart from which nothing at all exists. To make the six bases capable of literally incorporating everything, theVibhanga of the Abhidhamma Pitaka defines the mind base (manaayatana) as including all classes of consciousness, and the mental phenomena base (dhammaayatana) as including the other three mental aggregates, subtle nonsensuous types of form, and even the unconditioned element, Nibbana (see Vibh 70-73).” ***** As I’ve said, and is supported by the Comy, clearly in some suttas in the section, nibbana is not included and from the context only conditioned dhammas are being referred to. For both the sutta Howard referd to on abandoning - (25 (3) Abandonment) and for the Fire Sermon you quoted (28 (6) Burning) in BB’s transl, I don’t have access to any Cmy notes on this point about whether nibbana is included or not and it is a good point. On the one hand, these suttas are in the same section and follow closely on from the Sabba Sutta. On the otherhand, we know that nibbana (as opposed to a concept of it) cannot be the object of desire or lust, so this would suggest it isn’t included. Perhaps Kom or Num or anyone with access to the Thai or Pali Cmy can help out and take over this discussion with you on difficult points when I go away soon. I’ve found it very interesting to consider, but without the Cmy reference, I’m just idly speculating to say more. ..... > If you say that nibbana is mind-object/idea/dhammayatana, do you > mean the idea about nibbana is mind-object/idea/dhammayatana? .... No. The ayatanas refer to paramattha dhammas and remember, ideas and computers are concepts (pannatti);-) I came across an old translation of Nanamoli’s for ‘TheFire Sermon’ (wheel 17) in which he also uses ‘ideas’ and makes comments in a note that are surprising but based on the meaning of ‘dhamma’ which as we know in some contexts include concepts. He does however include nibbana in dhammayatana;-) ..... > Consciousness is impermanent, dukkha/unsatisfactory. Consciousness > that is signless, boundless, all-luminous is impermanent, > dukkha/unsatisfactory. This consciousness is not and can not be > nibbana, the cessation of dukkah, unborn, unmade, unbecome, > unfabricated. > Your comment is appreciated. .... Sorry, I’m quite sure I’ve never suggested that nibbana is impermanent or dukkha. Btw, you're making some good points and having some interesting discussions on the Mahacattarisaka Sutta, MN117 with other friends. You and others may like to also review this old post of Jon's on it: http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/m13499.html> Metta, Sarah ====== 22996 From: bodhi dhamma Date: Thu Jun 19, 2003 1:23am Subject: Chanting and transference of merits to petas Hi Bros. and Sis. in the dhamma, I understand that when we chant and do transference of merits to petas, not all petas can receive our merits. Is it because different groups of them have different mental faculties and different cittas/cetasikas ? Next, it is said that when one chants attentively, and fully understand the content of the Bojjhanga Sutras, Ratana sutra etc.one will be 'protected' against the evil forces. calamities....etc. How chanting,in these cases can generate powerful wholesome cittas to counter-act the unwholesome thoughts prevailing in the mind of the evil beings ?Alternatively,is it because these evil beings receive(or thought arising from ) the wholesome merits and thus nulilfy their akusala cittas ? I hope to gather some Abhidhammic aspects of the above,for my forthcoming class discussion.I am sure the class will like your interesting explainations. Thank you, everyone on behalf of all students in the class. with metta P C Yap 22997 From: Sarah Date: Thu Jun 19, 2003 2:17am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Dating of texts, to Jim. advice needed. Hi Jim, --- Jim Anderson wrote :> It is still my understanding that the Jataka volumes found in the > Tipitaka proper consist of the verses only. I think your question: if > so, then why do they not fall under the verse (gaathaa) category? is > best addressed by the DN subcommentary (Sv-p.t 41) and one might also > want to check the .tiikaa on the relevant Vinayanidaana passage and > whatever else one can find. Sorry, I don't know of any translation. > There is actually a two page discussion on the nine categories in the > DN subcty giving some kind of criteria which I have not studied so I > really can't speak for it. ...... Thx for this. Also note Malalasekera’s entry in DPPN (extract below) which refers to the groupings according to subject matter in DA. ..... >In early 1999, Richard P. Hayes on Buddha-L > raised the question of the canonicity of the Jatakas and I have saved > some of the short reponses by John Strong, L.S. Cousins, and myself > where I pointed out the subcty passage. Perhaps I should string them > together into one message with some editing and post here? I don't > think it would be any longer than one of your long posts. ..... I think that would be very helpful. I tend to think, like qus about the origins of Psm, Dhp and others, it's likely to be a recurring theme. .... >> The atthakathas do preserve a great deal of what the Buddha said which > are not recorded in the Tipitaka such as things said to Ananda and the > stories that go with the Dhammapada & Jataka verses. I have come > across instances of the term 'buddhavacana' being defined as the > Tipitaka combined with the commentaries (saa.t.thakatha.m). The > commentaries are like companion volumes. .... That’s how I see them. Of course some have found their way into the Nikayas and so on. Thx also for the derivations for Jataka. Whilst the Cariyapitaka verses are clearly on their own relating to ‘what has been before’ and the ‘Blessed One’s previous conduct’, I think that many of the Jataka verses on their own without the Cmy do not necessarily show this. In the Intro to the Jataka (transl by Mrs R-D) under ‘The Story of the Lineage (Nidaanakathaa)’, it gives a little detail about how the stories of the Births were collected together, added to the Scriptures and rehearsed as the Jataka. It then continues with the writing of this Cmy. Thanks again, Jim for your trouble and I look f/w to seeing the discussion you mentioned. With metta, Sarah ======= http://www.palikanon.com/english/pali_names/j/jaataka.htm * Játaka The tenth book of Khuddaka Nikáya of the Sutta Pitaka containing tales of the former births of the Buddha. The Játaka also forms one of the nine angas or divisions of the Buddha's teachings, grouped according to the subject matter (DA.i.15, 24). The canonical book of the Játakas (so far unpublished) contains only the verses, but it is almost certain that from the first there must have been handed down an oral commentary giving the stories in prose. This commentary later developed into the Játakatthakathá. http://www.palikanon.com/english/pali_names/j/jaatakatthakathaa.htm Some of the Játakas have been included in a separate compilation, called the Cariyá Pitaka. It is not possible to say when the Játakas in their present form came into existence nor how many of these were among the original number. In the time of the Culla Niddesa, there seem to have been five hundred Játakas, because reference is made to pañcajátakasatáni (p.80; five hundred was the number seen by Fa Hsien in Ceylon (p.71)). Bas-reliefs of the third century have been found illustrating a number of Játaka stories, and they presuppose the existence of a prose collection. Several Játakas exist in the canonical books which are not included in the Játaka collection. For a discussion on the Játakas in all their aspects, see Rhys Davids Buddhist India, pp.189ff. The Díghabhánakas included the Játaka in the Abhidhamma Pitaka. (DA.i.15; the Samantapásádiká (i.251) contains a reference to a Játakanikáya). The Játaka consists of twenty-two sections or nipátas. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ 22998 From: christine_forsyth Date: Thu Jun 19, 2003 3:04am Subject: Re: meditation vs. just thinking about it Dear Robert, I have been very busy this week at work - so I'm a little behind with reading some of the dsg posts. A question of yours intrigued me .. In your post about the Kandaraka sutta - regarding Pessa the Elephant Driver's son - you asked at the end why the Buddha didn't ask Pessa to stay. You mention that the commentary states that if he had stayed, he would have attained the first stage of enlightenment. I have just read the Kandaraka sutta (MN51). I wonder if it could have been something as simple as the fact that Pessa (like us) had a living to earn, a boss he was answerable to, a family to get back to, or an appointment to keep - i.e. other things on his mind? Perhaps, as Pessa was said to be ripe for enlightenment, the wish to listen to the true Dhamma taught by a Buddha needs to effortlessly override,and not be clouded by, the need to be doing things? Pessa did seem to have a good understanding - but was drawn away by affairs of the world, the things that he felt he was required to do. But .. I really don't know - why didn't the Buddha call Pessa back or encourage him to stay? metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: <<<<>>>> sir, we have to go now, we have a lot > of work to do. > Pessa, do what you think is fit. Then the elephant > rider's son Pessa pleased and delighted with the words of the > Blessed One got up from his seat, worshipped and circunambulated the > Blessed One and went away. > Soon after the elephant rider's son had left. The Blessed One > addressed the bhikkhus: Bhikkhus, if the elephant rider's son had > waited some more time until I explained these four persons, he would > have amassed, much knowledge." > > The commentary says Pessa would have reached the first stage of > enlightenment(sotapanna) if he had listened to the full discourse. > As it was he > greatly benefited as he saw new ways to develop satipatthana. > > Now a question. Why > didn't the Buddha ask him to sit and meditate. Or at least stay till > the end of the talk? > RobertK 22999 From: Sarah Date: Thu Jun 19, 2003 3:16am Subject: Re: The most common citta (was [dsg] Re: TEST QUESTION) Hi RobM, I’ve been meaning to do a little research on this point and get back to you, but I’ve not got round to it;-( --- robmoult wrote: > > My logic is that clinging to continued existence is not only the > first citta but also the most common citta. I have the idea that > this "clining to continued existence" citta is always working as > an "undercurrent". Rupas of the body are constantly being created; > these rupas are born of kamma. This kamma is created by cittas. My > logic is that it is "clinging to continued existence" cittas which > create the kamma that conditions the rupas of the body to constantly > be created. ..... I’d need to see some textual support for this, I think. I’d be hesitant to make comments about lobha being the ‘most common citta’ without reference. As I said, I would have guessed it to be moha, but I don’t know. I’d be curious to see anything you dig up. ..... R: > I have not read this in any text, it is my own (twisted?) logic, so > I am going to throw it open to the group for comment. > > What do you think? I we agree with this logic, then I need to delete > my qualifier, "for most people". ..... I prefer to be cautious about statements I’ve not seen in the texts because my own hunches and logic have a knack of being proved wrong at a later date and I wouldn’t wish to mislead anyone. Of course, in a discussion, like this, we can speculate and no one accepts anything we say as ‘truth’ without evidence anyway;-) ..... On the Internet “Sutra” qu, it’s difficult. I know you have good intentions and very imaginative ways of presentation which is great. Like Victor, I’m sure there will be many who might not appreciate it however, though the intro helps. Perhaps you need a ‘Buddhist disciple’ instead of ‘the Buddha’ so as not to cause offence?? I know any feeble attempts of mine at humour tend to fall flat, but your passage is very skilfully done, imho and we all need to hear different approaches to understand more about anatta. I’ve not got out the earlier version (under ‘Light Relief’ in U.P.) to compare, but I think I prefer the first half of the later version with its intro and the last half of the earlier version without the ISP analogy etc. The last para of this one from ‘Exactly, Engineer Rob’ doesn’t quite work for me as well as I recall the earlier simpler version. I’m not sure about the ‘foundation’ or ‘platform’ parts either. I’m also thinking about this sentence: “The function of rupa is to provide a base of support for nama. The function of nama is to receive and process the information from the visible object.” Hmmmm ***** Btw, talking of Jatakas, you prompted me to go back and read the “Mahasupina Jataka” (no 77) about the 16 dreams of King Pasenadi. As you mentioned in your post on unwholesome cetasikas (22408), the Buddha foretells what will happen when society decays. In this Jataka the ‘present’ account is the main story and the single verse is quite meaningless out of context of the stories, I think. The Buddha assures King Pasenadi that the dreams will ‘have no issue’ during their lives. As I read the details, I’m not sure the same could be said today and I think there is much that would be controversial/disturbing. I think the summaries you gave in your post are very good and accurate. Btw, just looking at what you wrote in that post about moha in light of ‘the most common citta’ discussion, you wrote ‘moha arises when there is no right understanding’. I think it would be more accurate to say that moha arises when there is no kusala of any kind. For example, there may be dana or sila without understanding - no moha. You also refer to moha as ‘mental blindness’ to various truths. I think it’s wider than that - whenever there is no kusala of any kind there’s ignorance and unwise attention. It’s the root of all unwholesome states. Your other comments on moha were good (I agreed:-)). Thx again for sharing your articles and comments with us, Rob. Like Andrew said, keep inspiring us with your energy and efforts to help. Sorry that my posts to you are always so scrambled, but I know you’ll be able to follow even if no one else can. Metta, Sarah =====