23400 From: christine_forsyth Date: Fri Jul 11, 2003 9:51pm Subject: Anicca (Impermanence) Dear Group, The Buddha taught anicca (impermanence) dukkha (suffering) and anatta (no self). My experience has been that anatta is the hardest to understand. With the other two - Suffering is quite easy to see, in a mild form like feeling bored, and in its grosser forms like pain, hate and fear; and Impermanence - change, is also easily seen e.g. always needing another hair cut, or to mow the lawn, things break, rules change, people die, thoughts and feelings come and go. But lately, I notice change never stops. Anicca seems, at first, to be the lesser condition to be concerned about - but of the three anicca, dukkha and anatta, over the last months, it is anicca that has become the greatest burden. Knowing that everything changes, one almost wonders 'why care about anything or anyone'? Things are just going to break, get lost, or be taken away. Hopes and expectations are not going to be met, or will be met for a while only. People are going to come and go (if you are fond of them) and come and stay (if you aren't). If something works just right (a group, a plan, a thing) don't relax - it'll all fall apart! How can anything be enjoyed, how can there be any happiness even for a little while, when there is the consciousness that, even it there are good times and contentment - nothing lasts, nothing can be relied on, that it'll all constantly change. Change is so unrelenting. One wonders, why bother making plans, buying things, creating things, even caring about dear ones - nothing lasts. Doesn't it seem that anicca and dukkha are one'? and doesn't it seem that if everything is painful, either in itself or because it can't be trusted to last and is always changing. And therefore, doesn't it seem that because there is no oasis or haven or centre of no-change anywhere, inside or outside of a person, that there is anatta and dukkha only because of anicca? metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- 23401 From: kenhowardau Date: Sat Jul 12, 2003 0:37am Subject: [dsg] Re: Putting into practice/KenH Hello Howard, ---------------- > Actually, I'm very poor at visualizing. (I won't be a Tibetan Buddhist in this lifetime! ;-). > --------------- I forget that most people don't experience a lot of visualisation. It's an ability I've had since as far back as I can remember. I can't see pure blackness; when I shut my eyes, I can always see coloured pictures. It is a sign of thinking activity and there is very little sense of control over it. For example, instead of trying to visualise an elephant, I try to see an elephant in the shapes and pattens that emerge. Then suddenly, an elephant will appear but it won't be like the elephant I had anticipated. I can be anticipating a cartoon-like image but what appears might be the spitting image of the wild African variety. There is no eye contact involved and yet, the effect is remarkably like normal seeing. The lesson I take from this is that, what we normally call seeing, is mainly thinking. ---------------------- > I do much better with sounds. > ---------------------- I experimented with sounds this morning, and unexpectedly 'heard' the Simpson's theme -- most noticeably, Lisa's saxophone solo. Again, it's all [uncontrolled] thinking -- no actual sound and no actual hearing. ---------------------------- > But with practice, I could improve my visualizing skills. > ---------------------------- Yes, but where's it going to get you? ----------------- > There is no control in the sense of volition ruling. Volition is one of many conditions that play a role. It by itself is never enough. But it is needed, and, with supporting conditions in place, it is rousable. Also, one's volition may be weak, or even lacking due to disineterst or other factors. There is no doubt that, as with all other conditions, volition arises only when the conditions for its arising are in place > --------------- The only parts of your arguments that I tend to disagree with, are where there is a hint of something more than conditionality. In most aspects of daily life, there can be a very, very strong sense of control, but in reality, there is no control. Even in the most concentrated exercise of volition, whether it involves standing-and- sitting, or the tap of a finger or the blink of an eye, there is, in reality, nothing more than conditioned, impersonal, dhammas. ----------------- > > > As your "surfing" has improved, hasn't there, in fact, been changes in skills, in reaction time, etc, all reducing to changes in paramattha dhammas? > ------------------ Yes, the dhammas of each and every moment, [kusala and akusala alike], condition other dhammas -- both present and future. This is the way of samsara. In the development of the way out of samsara -- satipatthana -- right understanding comes first. In the development of other ways (ways which don't lead out of samsara), other dhammas come first -- eg., lobha, dosa, moha, alobha, adosa. The more we practise those other ways, -- ie., the more moments without panna arise -- the more they are developed. But they are not the way out. It's tough, but when I think of the alternatives, I wouldn't want it any other way. Kind regards, Ken 23402 From: kenhowardau Date: Sat Jul 12, 2003 6:16am Subject: Re: Anicca (Impermanence) Hi Christine, Sorry to change the subject momentarily, but this post reminds me of an earlier post of yours: The one about your wanting to say something that would inspire your mother to take an interest in the Dhamma. I had one of those rare opportunities last weekend, when it seemed certain non-Dhamma friends of mine were ready to listen. They have an on-going, long-term family tragedy that is really getting them down. We were having a pleasant picnic by the river when one of them expressed sentiments just like the ones in this paragraph of yours: > Knowing that everything changes, one almost wonders 'why care about anything or anyone'? Things are just going to break, get lost, or be taken away. Hopes and expectations are not going to be met, or will be met for a while only. People are going to come and go (if you are fond of them) and come and stay (if you aren't). If something works just right (a group, a plan, a thing) don't relax - it'll all fall apart! How can anything be enjoyed, how can there be any happiness even for a little while, when there is the consciousness that, even it there are good times and contentment - nothing lasts, nothing can be relied on, that it'll all constantly change. Change is so unrelenting. One wonders, why bother making plans, buying things, creating things, even caring about dear ones - nothing lasts. > Seizing the moment, I launched into an explanation of absolute reality -- something I rarely do in non-Buddhist company. I told them about realities that were ultimately good or bad, ultimately pleasant or unpleasant, ultimately superior or inferior . . . I kept going for three or four sentences before they lost interest and changed the subject, but that's a near record for me. :-) Is there any point in dwelling on the impermanence, unsatisfactoriness and soullessness of concepts -- things that aren't even real? I think it can only be depressing. On the other hand, dwelling on the anicca, dukkha and anatta of paramattha dhammas is uplifting, inspiring, liberating! The past no longer exists, the future has never existed, so what is there to worry about? What can go wrong; what harm can be done, if the entire world consists of the empty, mental and physical phenomena of the present moment? Of course, being uninstructed worldlings, we will cling to concepts and there will be worry and depression but, we are also Dhamma students: We have some understanding of absolute reality and we know that, ultimately, there are no 'worldlings' no 'Dhamma students' that suffer; there is only the empty, impersonal dukkha itself. Kind regards, Ken 23403 From: gazita2002 Date: Sat Jul 12, 2003 6:52am Subject: Re: Anicca (Impermanence) --- dear Chris., I have been sitting here reading and re-reading what you have written, and I think it's very insightful. In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Dear Group, > > The Buddha taught anicca (impermanence) dukkha (suffering) and anatta > (no self). My experience has been that anatta is the hardest to > understand. With the other two - Suffering is quite easy to see, > in a mild form like feeling bored, and in its grosser forms like > pain, hate and fear; What about the good times, the joy, laughter and comfortable feelings? are they not 'suffering' too. For me, I translate Dukkha as 'unsatisfactory' bec. I think everything is Dukkha, except of course Nibbana. Driving to work the other night - have been on the Zombie shift - it suddenly occured to me that everything I know and have ever experienced, is totally out of my control, myself included. It was like there were only these two things, the conditioned, which is all I know and think about and cling to, and the unconditioned, which I know nothing about. It, strangely enuff, created a good mood, almost like relief. and Impermanence - change, is also easily seen > e.g. always needing another hair cut, or to mow the lawn, things > break, rules change, people die, thoughts and feelings come and go. > But lately, I notice change never stops. > change never stops - how right you are. I think this is one of those 'ah ha' moments, when you realise that anicca is real, not just something we read about in books. > Anicca seems, at first, to be the lesser condition to be concerned > about - but of the three anicca, dukkha and anatta, over the last > months, it is anicca that has become the greatest burden. Knowing > that everything changes, one almost wonders 'why care about anything > or anyone'? but then there's compassion and loving kindness, which is also anicca, which may arise and you will care for someone, even if its against your will!!!!! Things are just going to break, get lost, or be taken > away. Hopes and expectations are not going to be met, or will be met > for a while only. People are going to come and go (if you are fond > of them) and come and stay (if you aren't). If something works just > right (a group, a plan, a thing) don't relax - it'll all fall apart! > How can anything be enjoyed, how can there be any happiness even for > a little while, when there is the consciousness that, even it there > are good times and contentment - nothing lasts, nothing can be > relied on, that it'll all constantly change. Change is so > unrelenting. One wonders, why bother making plans, buying things, > creating things, even caring about dear ones - nothing lasts. > Is this bec you want it to last? Stupid question I suppose, of course we all want the good times to last. But maybe you're beginning to see the futility in the clinging. You know, Chris even the despondent moments don't last, in your own words 'change never stops'. > Doesn't it seem that anicca and dukkha are one'? and doesn't it seem > that if everything is painful, either in itself or because it can't > be trusted to last and is always changing. And therefore, doesn't it > seem that because there is no oasis or haven or centre of no-change > anywhere, inside or outside of a person, that there is anatta and > dukkha only because of anicca? > Yes, I think this is so. It is unsatisfactory bec it doesn't last, not even for a nanosecond, and it is anatta bec it doesn't last. I think it's ignorance that makes it atta. We don't know the truth, therefore we mix all the realities up and create a mirage. My middle name is Imogen, which means imagine/imagination - I think we should all be called Imogen bec unless we are very wise, we imagine all sorts of unreal things. > metta and peace, > Christine > ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- Patience, courage and good cheer, Azita Imogen!! 23404 From: Date: Sat Jul 12, 2003 3:20am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Anicca (Impermanence) Hi, Ken (and Christine) - In a message dated 7/12/03 9:17:17 AM Eastern Daylight Time, kenhowardau@y... writes: > Hi Christine, > > Sorry to change the subject momentarily, but this post > reminds me of an earlier post of yours: The one about > your wanting to say something that would inspire your > mother to take an interest in the Dhamma. I had one of > those rare opportunities last weekend, when it seemed > certain non-Dhamma friends of mine were ready to listen. > > They have an on-going, long-term family tragedy that is > really getting them down. We were having a pleasant > picnic by the river when one of them expressed sentiments > just like the ones in this paragraph of yours: > > >Knowing that everything changes, one almost wonders > 'why care about anything or anyone'? Things are just > going to break, get lost, or be taken away. Hopes and > expectations are not going to be met, or will be met > for a while only. People are going to come and go (if > you are fond of them) and come and stay (if you aren't). > If something works just right (a group, a plan, a thing) > don't relax - it'll all fall apart! > How can anything be enjoyed, how can there be any > happiness even for a little while, when there is the > consciousness that, even it there are good times and > contentment - nothing lasts, nothing can be relied on, > that it'll all constantly change. Change is so > unrelenting. One wonders, why bother making plans, buying > things, creating things, even caring about dear ones - > nothing lasts. > > > Seizing the moment, I launched into an explanation of > absolute reality -- something I rarely do in non-Buddhist > company. I told them about realities that were > ultimately good or bad, ultimately pleasant or > unpleasant, ultimately superior or inferior . . . I kept > going for three or four sentences before they lost > interest and changed the subject, but that's a near > record for me. :-) > > Is there any point in dwelling on the impermanence, > unsatisfactoriness and soullessness of concepts -- things > that aren't even real? I think it can only be > depressing. On the other hand, dwelling on the anicca, > dukkha and anatta of paramattha dhammas is uplifting, > inspiring, liberating! > ------------------------------------------------------ Howard: I agree with the foregoing sentence. The idea that all there actually appear are interrelated, interdependent, and empty phenomena that do not last and, thus, cannot satisfy, is fascinating. The direct realization of this, provided that the mind is calm and nonreactive, can be delightful and liberating. What is essential, I think, is being calm and nonreactive, and letting go. ------------------------------------------------------- > > The past no longer exists, the future has never existed, > so what is there to worry about? What can go wrong; what > harm can be done, if the entire world consists of the > empty, mental and physical phenomena of the present > moment? > ------------------------------------------------------ Howard: Absolutely true. As I like to put it: "Ultimately we are safe." But this can only be realized once grasping has ended. ------------------------------------------------------- > > Of course, being uninstructed worldlings, we will cling > to concepts and there will be worry and depression but, > we are also Dhamma students: We have some understanding > of absolute reality and we know that, ultimately, there > are no 'worldlings' no 'Dhamma students' that suffer; > there is only the empty, impersonal dukkha itself. > ------------------------------------------------------- Howard: You mention clinging, Ken. I think this is key. Christine, you have pointed to impermanance as primary in causing suffering and even considered identifying suffering with impermanence. I think the former is correct, but the latter is not quite correct. Impermanence and conditionality are just that. In and of themselves, there is nothing wrong with them. But together with the ignorance that (unconsciously) takes the impermanent to be permanent and conditioned to be self-existent, and the craving for and attachment to what does not remain and is not self-sufficient, there arises suffering. When ignorance, craving, and aversion have been uprooted, still all worldly dhammas will be impermanent and conditioned, but no suffering will arise from that. From ATI, there is the following: ***************************************** The definition > "And this, monks is the noble truth of the origination of dukkha: the > craving that makes for further becoming -- accompanied by passion & delight, > relishing now here & now there -- i.e., craving for sensual pleasure, craving for > becoming, craving for non-becoming." > >> -- SN LVI.11 > ********************************************** > > Kind regards, > Ken > ============================= With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 23405 From: gazita2002 Date: Sat Jul 12, 2003 3:26pm Subject: Re: Perfections, Ch 11, Equanimity, no 6. --- Dear Nina, Could you explain this passage a little more please: In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > Perfections, Ch 11, Equanimity, no 6. > > --He thought of abandoning his possessions and becoming a monk, but then he considered that, as a monk, his good qualities would not be apparent so as to become praiseworthy. That was why the Great Being who was averse from gain and honour did not enter the state of monkhood.---- It seems like he did not become a monk because his good qualities would not be apparent and therefore he would not be praiseworthy. I can't imagine he wanted to be worthy of praise, but I'm not really understanding this passage. It would make more sense to me if it read ---his good qualities would be apparent so as to become praiseworthy --- Would really appreciate some help here, please Nina. Thank you for these 'Perfections'. They are so beneficial for dealing with daily life events. Learning more about Metta has made life a little less stressful for me personally. I don't need to 'battle' with the world out there, I can be friendly instead. Beautiful. Patience, courage and good cheer, Azita Imogen [bec I imagine things to be what they are not!] 23406 From: Antony Woods Date: Sat Jul 12, 2003 5:06pm Subject: Re: Anicca (Impermanence) Dear Christine, Bhikkhu Nanamoli once wrote: "Such faith decides in advance that nothing arisen can reveal any permanence at all, however brief, and since all subsequent evidence supports the decision, if that evidence is not forgotten, craving is progressively stultified in the impossibility of finding any arisen thing worth craving for and is progressively displaced by the joy of liberation." (from p27 "Does Saddha mean Faith?" in "Pathways of Buddhist Thought" Wheel 52/53, Buddhist Publication Society, bps@m... ) metta / Antony. 23407 From: kenhowardau Date: Sat Jul 12, 2003 11:31pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Anicca (Impermanence) Howard, You wrote: ------------ > I agree with the foregoing sentence. The idea that all there actually appear are interrelated, interdependent, and empty phenomena that do not last and, thus, cannot satisfy, is fascinating. The direct realization of this, provided that the mind is calm and nonreactive, can be delightful and liberating. What is essential, I think, is being calm and nonreactive, and letting go. > ------------- I'm not letting you have the last word on this :-) What is essential is an appreciation of the benefits of calm, equanimity, detachment and other kusala states. This is different from wanting those states to arise. When there is wanting, there is no calm, equanimity or detachment -- quite the reverse. Sometimes when I'm driving in traffic and another driver inadvertently pulls out in front of me, I immediately react with kindness and curtesy. ('sometimes, not always, unfortunately.) This is not due to any conscious effort, as if I had been chanting a mantra; "I must react with kindness if some unexpected incident occurs. I must react with kindness . . . etc., etc." When kusala reactions occur, it is because there is an appreciation of the benefits of kusala and of the dangers of akusala. Other, more ritualistic displays of curtesy, where there is time to wonder, "How should I react in this situation," are more likely to be motivated by desire. In the moments following a spontaneous moment of genuine kindness, there will probably be thoughts of, "Wasn't that a kind reaction, what a charming, likeable fellow I am." Then there will be ritualistic displays of bonhomie, and pleasant feelings but mostly, they will be accompanied by lobha. But even then, amongst all the conceit and sense delight, kusala cittas can arise [if the conditions are right]. There is simply no control :-) Kind regards, Ken 23408 From: buddhatrue Date: Sun Jul 13, 2003 1:39am Subject: Re: Anicca (Impermanence) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > Howard, > > You wrote: > ------------ > > I agree with the foregoing sentence. The idea that all > there actually appear are interrelated, interdependent, > and empty phenomena that do not last and, thus, cannot > satisfy, is fascinating. The direct realization of this, > provided that the mind is calm and nonreactive, can be > delightful and liberating. What is essential, I think, is > being calm and nonreactive, and letting go. > > ------------- > > > I'm not letting you have the last word on this :-) > > What is essential is an appreciation of the benefits of > calm, equanimity, detachment and other kusala states. > > This is different from wanting those states to arise. > When there is wanting, there is no calm, equanimity or > detachment -- quite the reverse. > But even then, amongst all the conceit and sense delight, > kusala cittas can arise [if the conditions are right]. > There is simply no control :-) > > Kind regards, > Ken Hi Ken, I am afraid I would have to disagree. Many suttas from the Buddha state that we should seek that which is calm and harmonious and avoid that which is disharmonious; and we should actively, every moment actually, do this. According to you, this would only create disharmony. I think I understand where you are coming from: you see the seeking of harmony/happiness as being like a neurotic behavior… like Woody Allen in most of his movies where he spins and sputters in a feeble attempt to find happiness in a neurotic world. Granted, that is a sad picture, but it is no reason to become jaded to the true pursuit of true happiness. The problem with Woody Allen in his movies, and the flower children of the 60s, and the New Agers of today, is that they seek happiness and yet they don't want to give up those things which are making them unhappy. It is reasonable to seek happiness, much more reasonable that just 'waiting for it' (as you suggest), as long as the person is willing to surrender most 'everything' (in their minds) to get there. Wanna be rich? Wanna be famous? Wanna be pleasured? Wanna be loved? Wanna be you? If so, you won't be able to find happiness. Every attempt, when holding onto those things, will fail… and provide the fodder for so much satirical humor. Those things have to be abandoned to find happiness. How do you do that? If you don't have someone in your life, who you deeply respect, making you abandon them…you have to sit in deep contemplation/concentration until you don't care about them anymore...then push a bit further. Metta, James 23409 From: Date: Sun Jul 13, 2003 3:23am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Anicca (Impermanence) Hi, Ken - In a message dated 7/13/03 2:31:55 AM Eastern Daylight Time, kenhowardau@y... writes: > Howard, > > You wrote: > ------------ > >I agree with the foregoing sentence. The idea that all > there actually appear are interrelated, interdependent, > and empty phenomena that do not last and, thus, cannot > satisfy, is fascinating. The direct realization of this, > provided that the mind is calm and nonreactive, can be > delightful and liberating. What is essential, I think, is > being calm and nonreactive, and letting go. > > ------------- > > > I'm not letting you have the last word on this :-) > > What is essential is an appreciation of the benefits of > calm, equanimity, detachment and other kusala states. > > This is different from wanting those states to arise. > When there is wanting, there is no calm, equanimity or > detachment -- quite the reverse. > > Sometimes when I'm driving in traffic and another driver > inadvertently pulls out in front of me, I immediately > react with kindness and curtesy. ('sometimes, not > always, unfortunately.) This is not due to any conscious > effort, as if I had been chanting a mantra; "I must react > with kindness if some unexpected incident occurs. I must > react with kindness . . . etc., etc." > > When kusala reactions occur, it is because there is an > appreciation of the benefits of kusala and of the dangers > of akusala. Other, more ritualistic displays of curtesy, > where there is time to wonder, "How should I react in > this situation," are more likely to be motivated by desire. > > In the moments following a spontaneous moment of genuine > kindness, there will probably be thoughts of, "Wasn't > that a kind reaction, what a charming, likeable fellow I > am." Then there will be ritualistic displays of bonhomie, and > pleasant feelings but mostly, they will be accompanied by lobha. > > But even then, amongst all the conceit and sense delight, > kusala cittas can arise [if the conditions are right]. > There is simply no control :-) > > Kind regards, > Ken > ================================ We're not *too* far. I agree that "an appreciation of the benefits of calm, equanimity, detachment and other kusala states" is essential. I believe that to a large extent, their very experiencing leads to such appreciation, and hearing about how good they are is helpful too, but to a lesser extent. The direct experincing of these states, with clear attention, as well as the direct experiecing of contrary states (for comparison) also with clear attention, is primary as I see it. The kusala states can be cultivated, so that they will arise more strongly and more frequently, certainly not by wishing for these states, but by specific actions including guarding of the senses, samatha meditation, and a practice of ongoing mindfulness, all repeatedly recommended by the Buddda to his followers. BTW, I partly agree with you in the following. I will insert a couple comments: ------------------------------------------------------------ K: When kusala reactions occur, it is because there is an appreciation of the benefits of kusala and of the dangers of akusala. ------------------------------------------------- Howard: They occur because that "appreciation" has been imbibed, deep within, and transformed into a conditioned, automatic response (of genuine friendship, lovingkindness, sympathy, etc). ------------------------------------------------- K: Other, more ritualistic displays of curtesy, where there is time to wonder, "How should I react in this situation," are more likely to be motivated by desire. -------------------------------------------------- Howard: Yes. Sometimes this can be well motivated ("I know this is the right thing to do"), but more often that is not so, or, at least, there are impure motivations (and ego) involved as well. ----------------------------------------------------- K: In the moments following a spontaneous moment of genuine kindness, there will probably be thoughts of, "Wasn't that a kind reaction, what a charming, likeable fellow I am." ------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Yes, that can happen, which is "offsetting". However, when the inclination to "goodness" is deep set and firm, there is more often a reaction of simple joy at the event and a pure happiness that one is so inclined - a "gratefulness" as opposed to a conceit). -------------------------------------------------------- K: Then there will be ritualistic displays of bonhomie, and pleasant feelings but mostly, they will be accompanied by lobha. ------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Such "good will" is certainly defective. ============================= With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 23410 From: Date: Sun Jul 13, 2003 9:43am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Anicca (Impermanence) Hi guys, Here's a thought. Tracing the chain of proximate causes, the proximate cause of insight is concentration, the proximate cause of concentration is "joyful interest" (piti). In jhana, I think the object of joyful interest is tranquility itself; that is to say the ever more tranquil aspect of the nimitta, object of jhana. That is why it is sometimes said that tranquility and concentration are the same. However, for insight practice I don't think tranquility is necessarily the object of joyful interest even though tranquility and insight seem to be inseparable whenever there is insight. So what is the object of joyful interest in insight practice? I think it has to be one of the three general characteristics (gone, not-desirable, not me/mine) but I'm not sure. If this were the case then the insight and what originally initiated the insight would be the same. Perhaps as Ken suggested the object of joyful interest is wholesomeness via sati. Whatever the object is it has to inspire joyful interest somehow. Any thoughts? Larry 23411 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sun Jul 13, 2003 11:14am Subject: Re: Anicca (Impermanence)/Azita Dear Azita Imogen :-) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "gazita2002" Azita said: "What about the good times, the joy, laughter and comfortable feelings? are they not 'suffering' too. For me, I translate Dukkha as 'unsatisfactory' bec. I think everything is Dukkha, except of course Nibbana. Driving to work the other night - have been on the Zombie shift - it suddenly occured to me that everything I know and have ever experienced, is totally out of my control, myself included. It was like there were only these two things, the conditioned, which is all I know and think about and cling to, and the unconditioned, which I know nothing about. It, strangely enuff, created a good mood, almost like relief." Chris: I agree - the good times are also suffering because they don't last and because they strengthen attachment and craving which causes rebirth to continue on and on. ============================ Azita: "change never stops - how right you are. I think this is one of those 'ah ha' moments, when you realise that anicca is real, not just something we read about in books." Chris: One of the problems for me is that I don't seem to retain understanding like this. The power of habitual thoughts (?and poor memory) seems to reinstate past thought patterns. Almost like when you save a draft in your email folder, then make some important alterations (new insights) and forget to press the 'save' button - so you lose the alterations and the new 'improved' understanding. ============================= <> Azita: "Is this bec you want it to last? Stupid question I suppose, of course we all want the good times to last. But maybe you're beginning to see the futility in the clinging. You know, Chris even the despondent moments don't last, in your own words 'change never stops'." Chris: It's good to be reminded that the despondent moments don't last - that's the good side of anicca, hey? ============================ Azita: "It is unsatisfactory bec it doesn't last, not even for a nanosecond, and it is anatta bec it doesn't last. I think it's ignorance that makes it atta. We don't know the truth, therefore we mix all the realities up and create a mirage. My middle name is Imogen, which means imagine/imagination - I think we should all be called Imogen bec unless we are very wise, we imagine all sorts of unreal things." Chris: Thanks for this - we do construct and fabricate all sorts of stories and meanings that don't really exist - just how to be aware of it as it is happening is the skill I don't have. I'm quite an expert with hindsight though. :-) =============================== Patience, courage and good cheer, Azita Imogen!! metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- 23412 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sun Jul 13, 2003 11:16am Subject: Re: Anicca (Impermanence) Dear Antony and all, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Antony Woods" Antony, you wrote, quoting Bhikkhu Nanamoli:- ""Such faith decides in advance that nothing arisen can reveal any permanence at all, however brief, and since all subsequent evidence supports the decision, if that evidence is not forgotten, craving is progressively stultified in the impossibility of finding any arisen thing worth craving for and is progressively displaced by the joy of liberation." Chris: This is very helpful to me - especially the phrase 'if that evidence is not forgotten'. I remember a year or so ago also suddenly being conscious of the overwhelmingness of anicca, but it seems I forgot and settled back into old patterns and dulled awareness almost straight away. It is comforting to read Bhikkhu Nanamoli describing this sort of lapse as likely to happen to many people. metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- 23413 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sun Jul 13, 2003 11:28am Subject: Re: Anicca (Impermanence)/KenH Hi Christine, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" KenH: "Sorry to change the subject momentarily, but this post reminds me of an earlier post of yours: The one about your wanting to say something that would inspire your mother to take an interest in the Dhamma. I had one of those rare opportunities last weekend, when it seemed certain non-Dhamma friends of mine were ready to listen. They have an on-going, long-term family tragedy that is really getting them down. We were having a pleasant picnic by the river when one of them expressed sentiments just like the ones in this paragraph of yours: Seizing the moment, I launched into an explanation of absolute reality -- something I rarely do in non-Buddhist company. I told them about realities that were ultimately good or bad, ultimately pleasant or unpleasant, ultimately superior or inferior . . . I kept going for three or four sentences before they lost interest and changed the subject, but that's a near record for me. :-)" ------------------------- Chris: I wonder if people with different world views can ever really understand each other? Maybe next time just say: "Yeah things are crook mate - doesn't seem very much point in anything somedays - maybe it's all sent to teach us lessons - I dunno - here, chuck these snags on the barbie will ya?" :-) ============================================================ KenH: "Is there any point in dwelling on the impermanence, unsatisfactoriness and soullessness of concepts -- things that aren't even real? I think it can only be depressing. On the other hand, dwelling on the anicca, dukkha and anatta of paramattha dhammas is uplifting, inspiring, liberating! ------------------------ Chris: What about 'no control'? Don't thoughts arise unbidden? Are you now saying I CAN direct my mind? :-) ============================================================ The past no longer exists, the future has never existed, so what is there to worry about? What can go wrong; what harm can be done, if the entire world consists of the empty, mental and physical phenomena of the present moment? Of course, being uninstructed worldlings, we will cling to concepts and there will be worry and depression but, we are also Dhamma students: We have some understanding of absolute reality and we know that, ultimately, there are no 'worldlings' no 'Dhamma students' that suffer; there is only the empty, impersonal dukkha itself." ------------------------------ Chris: May I say that when I read the bit above, I found myself saying "Aauggh! KenH - You're SUCH a boy!" i.e. this is a gender related way of dealing with life. The idea that a complex problem can be solved by giving the bare facts presupposes that because something is fact, commonsense or reality - that anyone would be grateful to be told this, and that causes their problem to evaporate. :-) KenH - If someone regularly whacked you on the knee cap with a ballpeen hammer and then told you not to mention it as no harm can come to you, there is no ballpeen hammer, there is no 'knee' there is no 'you', there is no pain, that the past is gone and the future has not yet come - and all the time you are writhing on the floor in agony because of the results of the past conditions, would it seem to you that there was a slight gap between the theory and your own experience? ================================================================== Kind regards, Ken metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- 23414 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Jul 13, 2003 11:39am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Anicca (Impermanence) Dear Howard, op 12-07-2003 16:20 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: > The idea that all there actually > appear are interrelated, interdependent, and empty phenomena that do not last > and, thus, cannot satisfy, is fascinating. The direct realization of this, > provided that the mind is calm and nonreactive, can be delightful and > liberating. > What is essential, I think, is being calm and nonreactive, and letting go. > ------------------------------------------------------- Nina: It is liberating, but, as I see it, Panna should be stressed as foremost. When panna understands people and things we like so much as only nama and rupa, they become less attractive, and in that way detachment can grow. True calm is absence of defilements and as panna grows calm also grows, but panna is the leader, the forerunner. The development of panna leading to detachment is an endlessly long process. We should consider the four stages of enlightenment. The sotapanna has no more wrong view of self, but still clings to nama and rupa. The ariyan of the second stage, the once-returner, still clings, but his clinging has decreased. The ariyan of the third stage does not cling to sense objects anymore, but has other, more subtle forms of clinging. The arahat has eradicated all clinging. This is not only in the Abhidhamma Pitaka, it is also in the Suttanta. Another example that the three parts of the Tipitaka are one. When I, for example, read the "Kindred Sayings"(IV) , Kindred Sayings on Sense, it is stressed that the objects appearing one at a time through the six doors should be understood. In IV, 133, § 151, to what purpose? We read that the Buddha said, "It is for the full understanding of dukkha, friend, that the righteous life is lived under Gotama the recluse." When it is asked what this dukkha is, the answer is: the eye... objects.. eye-contact, etc. We should know the elements, the khandhas, the ayatanas. We should also know akusala as it is. Knowing, understanding, clear comprehension, that is what is emphasized, paga after page. Nina. 23415 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Jul 13, 2003 11:39am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Perfections, Equanimity, Qu. Dear Azita, I always appreciate it if people mention what is not clear. I can add a footnote. This passage could be read in two ways: op 13-07-2003 00:26 schreef gazita2002 op gazita2002@y...: >> Perfections, Ch 11, Equanimity, no 6. >> --He thought of abandoning his possessions and becoming a monk, > but then he considered that, as a monk, his good qualities would > not be apparent so as to become praiseworthy. That was why the > Great Being who was averse from gain and honour did not enter the > state of monkhood.---- > > It seems like he did not become a monk because his good qualities > would not be apparent and therefore he would not be praiseworthy. > I can't imagine he wanted to be worthy of praise, but I'm not > really understanding this passage. It would make more sense to me if > it read ---his good qualities would be apparent so as to become > praiseworthy --- N: In the following par. A. Sujin explains: He practised the highest degree of upekkha in that life, even foregoing all the gains and honours that come with monkhood. Then that quality, of the highest upekkha would become manifest, shine for others. He would be praised because of upekkha, not because he was a monk. If he had become a monk it would not be so clear that he had the highest upekkha, because people could still think that he received gains that accrue to monkhood. Later on we read that he was a recluse at heart. Living as a recluse, but foregoing all honours of monkhood. Do you find this clearer or not yet? A: > Learning more about Metta has made life a little less stressful > for me personally. I don't need to 'battle' with the world out > there, I can be friendly instead. N: We still have problems, we need also upekkha. What if people we are kind to do not respond as we would like? It happens so often. If there is also upekkha at times, we can be evenminded about people's reactions. This is most difficult, I find. Panna is necessary too. We need to see ourselves and others as condiitoned realities. Nina. 23416 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Jul 13, 2003 11:39am Subject: Perfections, Ch 11, Equanimity, no 7 Perfections, Ch 11, Equanimity, no 7 We read further on in the Commentary: He thought, ³I shall accumulate the practice of supreme patience, enduring derisive speech from others. I shall develop the perfection of equanimity to the highest degree.² He left his home, dressed only in the clothing he was wearing; he practised the elimination of defilements to the utmost. When he was without strength, he behaved as if he had strength. Though not dumb, he behaved as if he was dumb, while he was ridiculed by others because of his appearance that seemed to be of a fool. He wandered in villages, cities and the capital,and he stayed in each place for only one night. Wherever he was much ridiculed, he stayed for a longer time. When his clothing became worn out and unsightly, he did not accept another piece of clothing from someone else; he wandered about with clothing that served only to cover the private parts.² While he wandered about in that way he came to a house in the village. This is the perfection of equanimity to the highest degree, which is most difficult to develop. He had many possessions, but he did not cling to them. He wanted to accumulate the perfection of equanimity: he endured derisive speech from others, and he went outside covered only by a piece of cloth. When he was without strength, he behaved as if he had strength, he was not downhearted and he had patience. Though not dumb, he behaved as someone who is dumb, he was not disturbed by anything. No matter what someone else said, no matter others ridiculed him because of his outward appearance which seemed to be of a fool, he was unaffected. We all have different accumulated inclinations. We are attached to our appearance, to our clothing, to words of approval and praise from others. We like to be dressed beautifully, but the Bodhisatta had in that life great endurance, he was unaffected when others jeered at the way he was dressed. Where he was much derided he stayed longer. Wandering about in that way he came to a house in a village. We read: There the children of that family were of a mischievous character, they were prone to violence and liked to beat other people. Some children were relatives or slaves of the royal household. They had a cruel, fierce character, they uttered sarcastic, coarse, insulting speech and they went about mocking all the time. When these children would see old, destitude people, they would take fine dust and scatter it all over their backs. They behaved in an improper, reproachable way, and they jeered at the people who were watching the scene. When the great Being saw those mischievous children going about in the village, he thought, ³Now I shall use a trick as a means of accumulating the perfection of equanimity, and therefore I shall stay in that place.² When those mischievous children saw the Great Being, they began to behave in an improper way. The Great Being stood up and pretended that he could not stand this any longer and that he was afraid of those children. When the children followed the Bodhisatta, he went to a cemetery, thinking, ³Here nobody will interfere with the conduct of those children.² He took a skeleton as a pillow to support him and he lay down [2]. Thereupon the children behaved in an improper way such as spitting upon him and then returned. Every day they behaved in this way. When wise people saw the children¹s behaviour, they forbid them to behave in that way, saying, ³This person has great powers, he is an ascetic, a great yoga practitioner.² Those wise people greatly praised and honoured the Bodhisatta. All Bodhisattas are evenminded and impartial, in every respect. The Buddha said, ³I slept in a cemetery, taking as a pillow the skeleton of a corpse. I had evenmindedness with regard to what is clean and what is dirty.² The village children behaved in many rude, improper ways, by spitting, jeering, defecating and urinating. They poked blades of grass into the Bodhisatta¹s ears and they were teasing and mocking as much as they liked. The Bodhisatta reflected: ³The village children caused me to suffer pain, whereas those wise people gave me enjoyable things, such as flowers, unguents and food. I have evenmindedness, I am the same to all, because I have equanimity. I am impartial, without excess, in all circumstances. I have no specific affection towards those who support me, nor do I speak angry words or have feelings of vengeance towards those who do not support me. Thus, I am impartial towards all people.² Footnote: 2. This story is referred to in M I, 79 (sutta 12). 23417 From: Andrew Date: Sun Jul 13, 2003 5:16pm Subject: Re: Anicca (Impermanence)/KenH --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" wrote: > > KenH: The past no longer exists, the future has never existed, > so what is there to worry about? What can go wrong; what > harm can be done, if the entire world consists of the > empty, mental and physical phenomena of the present > moment? > > Of course, being uninstructed worldlings, we will cling > to concepts and there will be worry and depression but, > we are also Dhamma students: We have some understanding > of absolute reality and we know that, ultimately, there > are no 'worldlings' no 'Dhamma students' that suffer; > there is only the empty, impersonal dukkha itself." > ------------------------------ > Chris: > May I say that when I read the bit above, I found myself > saying "Aauggh! KenH - You're SUCH a boy!" i.e. this is a gender > related way of dealing with life. The idea that a complex problem > can be solved by giving the bare facts presupposes that > because something is fact, commonsense or reality - that anyone would > be grateful to be told this, and that causes their problem to > evaporate. :-) KenH - If someone regularly whacked you on the knee > cap with a ballpeen hammer and then told you not to mention it as no > harm can come to you, there is no ballpeen hammer, there is no 'knee' > there is no 'you', there is no pain, that the past is gone and the > future has not yet come - and all the time you are writhing on the > floor in agony because of the results of the past conditions, would > it seem to you that there was a slight gap between the theory and > your own experience? > ================================================================== Hi Chris and KenH Thanks for your amusing little exchange. Yes, KenH never tires of going back to the basics - maybe something to do with his rugby training? [when a team isn't playing well, the coach always tells the players to "concentrate on the basics"]. Maybe that's good advice, though. About the gap between theory and experience, I think a better metaphor is a person who goes to see a professional magician's show. When given the opportunity to understand how the tricks are performed, he replies "no, don't tell me. It will spoil the illusion." Isn't that the whole point? Buddha tells us that our thinking is clouded with illusion. If we want to see what is absolutely real and conventionally real, we have to be prepared to lay bare the illusion. When we do that - first of all by looking at it closely on an intellectual basis, it makes the illusion seem empty. Like a debunked magician's trick, it loses its mystery and its fun. Dhamma is a way of finding out what makes the illusion seem so real. Many people don't want to know. Lots like myself go through periods of time when we don't want to know. Metta, Andrew 23418 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Jul 13, 2003 9:10pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Anicca (Impermanence) Hi Larry, Kusala citta with panna developing insight can be accompanied by pleasant feeling or by indifferent feeling. Nina. op 13-07-2003 18:43 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: As to insight: So what is the object of joyful interest in insight practice? .... > Whatever the object is it has to > inspire joyful interest somehow. Any thoughts? 23419 From: rjkjp1 Date: Sun Jul 13, 2003 10:03pm Subject: Re: Anicca (Impermanence)/KenH --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" wrote: > >KEN: Of course, being uninstructed worldlings, we will cling > to concepts and there will be worry and depression but, > we are also Dhamma students: We have some understanding > of absolute reality and we know that, ultimately, there > are no 'worldlings' no 'Dhamma students' that suffer; > there is only the empty, impersonal dukkha itself." > ------------------------------ > Chris: > May I say that when I read the bit above, I found myself > saying "Aauggh! KenH - You're SUCH a boy!" i.e. this is a gender > related way of dealing with life. The idea that a complex problem > can be solved by giving the bare facts presupposes that > because something is fact, commonsense or reality - that anyone would > be grateful to be told this, and that causes their problem to > evaporate. :-) KenH - If someone regularly whacked you on the knee > cap with a ballpeen hammer and then told you not to mention it as no > harm can come to you, there is no ballpeen hammer, there is no 'knee' > there is no 'you', there is no pain, that the past is gone and the > future has not yet come - and all the time you are writhing on the > floor in agony because of the results of the past conditions, would > it seem to you that there was a slight gap between the theory and > your own experience? > ================================================================== Dear Christine, I listened to Khun Sujin reply to someone who had being talking about murder. She said: "There was no person, no gun, and no bullet" then she said words to the effect that we take murder as being worse than accidental death but both are the result of conditions. She said even when being shot and killed that panna can understand deeply in this way. Recently Dave said that ""It's one thing to be sitting in my room and going "hearing hearing" when the dog barks. It's another to be in my truck going "seeing seeing" when oncoming traffic approaches."" I am not sure what it means 'going "hearing hearing" or 'seeing seeing'', but for sure insight can arise when traffic approaches. Actually I find that it is often in hard circumstances when the elements of the Dhamma come together. It can happen almost instantly. I mentioned a while back how Ronald Graham, a well-known mathematician said "You can do mathematics anywhere. I once had a flash of insight into a problem in the middle of a back somersault with a triple twist on my trampoline ( in the "The man who Loved only Numbers"). And insight can come in faster than that because it doesn't need conceptualising to occur. Venerable Upasena, Sariputta's younger brother, was bitten by a snake. He asked the other monks to put him outside before he died. The monks commented that they saw no change in Upasena- in mind or body. This is because he didn't take citta for self, or body for self, or sankhara for self, or vedana or sanna. And there and then he died. RobertK Samyutta nikaya , Salayatana Vagga, Kindred Saying on Sense, Second Fifty, Ch 2, 69, Upasena): "Once the venerable Sariputta and the venerable Upasena were staying near Rajagaha in Cool Grove, at Snakeshood Grotto . Now at that time a snake had fallen on the venerable Upasena's body. Then the venerable Upasena called to the monks, saying: "Come here, friends, lift this body of mine on to a couch and take it outside before it be scattered here and now, just like a handful of chaff." At these words the venerable Sariputta said to the venerable Upasena: "But we see no change in the venerable Upasena body, no change for the worse in his faculties." Then the venerable Upasena repeated what he had said, adding: "Friend Sariputta, he who should think, I am the eye, the eye is mine, or I am the tongue, the tongue is mine, or I am the mind, the mind is mine,- in him there would be a change in his body, there would be a change for the worse in his faculties. But I, friend, have no such ideas. How then could there be any change in my body, any change for the worse in my faculties ?" Now the venerable Upasena had long since quelled the lurking tendencies that make for "I" and "mine". Therefore the venerable Upasena had no such ideas as, "I am the eye, the eye is mine," or "I am the tongue, the tongue is mine," or "I am the mind, the mind is mine." So those monks put the venerable Upasena body on a couch and bore it outside. And the venerable Upasena body there and then was scattered just like a handful of chaff. "" 23420 From: kenhowardau Date: Mon Jul 14, 2003 0:10am Subject: Re: Anicca (Impermanence) -Hello James, You wrote: -------------- > I am afraid I would have to disagree. Many suttas from the Buddha state that we should seek that which is calm and harmonious and avoid that which is disharmonious; and we should actively, every moment actually, do this. > --------------- If a person is employed in a noisy, busy factory, he can still seek calm in the manner taught by the Buddha. At every moment of generosity, moral restraint or mental development, there is the mental factor, samatha -- which is true calm. ----------------- > According to you, this would only create disharmony. > ------------------- The Buddha's teaching (satipatthana), certainly doesn't create disharmony. The question is; what is the Buddha's teaching? -------------- > I think I understand where you are coming from: you see the seeking of harmony/happiness as being like a neurotic behavior > ------------ Yes, but only with reference to the kinds of seeking that were not taught by the Buddha. Everyone, even animals (to a degree), can find calm, in the sense that they are able to attain moments of detachment and harmlessness. How do they do it? All teachers, other than a Buddha, claim that they do it by exercising control. But there is no entity -- animal, human or god -- who has control. Mental states are not self; they arise and cease according to conditions. The Buddha taught those conditions. ----------------- > > The problem with Woody Allen in his movies, and the flower children of the 60s, and the New Agers of today, is that they seek happiness and yet they don't want to give up those things which are making them unhappy. > ---------------- But a lot of them try; a degree of asceticism is found in most cultures and sub-cultures. Whenever it is forced and unnatural, it is motivated by greed, anger and/or ignorance. --------------- > It is reasonable to seek happiness, much more reasonable that just 'waiting for it' (as you suggest), > -------------- I suggest that the Buddha taught patience. The wholesome mental factor known as patience, is different from unwholesome laziness and apathy. -------------- > as long as the person is willing to surrender most 'everything' (in their minds) to get there. > ------------- Again, the wholesome mental factor known as surrender (renunciation), is different from unwholesome aversion (wanting to be rid of something). --------------- > > Those things have to be abandoned to find happiness. How do you do that? If you don't have someone in your life, who you deeply respect, making you abandon them…you have to sit in deep contemplation/concentration until you don't care about them anymore...then push a bit further. > --------------- I think any action designed to bring about non-arisen states or eliminate existing states, involves attachment or aversion. The objective is to understand arisen states, not to control them. Kind regards, Ken 23421 From: Sarah Date: Mon Jul 14, 2003 0:56am Subject: catching -up Dear Friends, Just a brief note to say we’re back in Hong Kong and look forward to catching up on messages here, in between other less enjoyable catching up - unpacking, laundry and household chores, office work (Jon off the plane and into legal drafts already), piles of mail and so on.....I just tried taking a nap after the very early departure from Bangkok, but the heat is quite overwhelming, not to mention the drilling outside the window..... In great appreciation of all your wonderful posts we’ve read to date in our absence. I left my reading glasses on the plane to Zurich and as a result am appreciating being able to read without severe strain for the first time since departure. Jon patiently read posts out to me when he had a chance to get to a computer, but after being unable to read myself, I’m enjoying the chance to pick up papers, look at posts and open a book again. In between chores, brief naps and taking a peek at posts, I also find myself thinking about the cool and snow-capped peaks in Switzerland and my mother’s smiling face, even as she stumbled and injured her knee on the last day of hiking (her first ever hiking holiday at 75!). I’m reminded of Khun Sujin’s question to another friend on Saturday: “What is the present reality?”, whilst the friend also reflected on past experiences. And the answer usually at these times is attachment, as the clinging to past objects continues. Probably the reminders, yet again, of life existing at the present moment were of greatest immediate impact at the weekend. I’ll be a few days with all this catching up.... look f/w to speaking later when hopefully I’ll make a little more sense. Metta, Sarah ====== 23422 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Jul 14, 2003 1:19am Subject: Re: [dsg] What next/Back again Jim and Nina (and All), Jim, thanks for this offer. That would make the exercise even more useful. Nina (and All), yesterday (Sunday) was Asalaha Puja day in Thailand which, as you know celebrates the giving of the first sermon by the Buddha, thereby setting in motion the wheel of the dhamma. It is 1 of the 3 highly revered days in the Buddhist calendar. At the Foundation in Bangkok, and many people came to spend the day, listen to talks and join in the discussion. Special arrangements were made to provide lunch for all. It was quite a spectacle with lots of people in splendid Thai silk and generally a happy atmosphere (many familiar faces from previous India trips etc). You would have enjoyed it. Before that, on Friday and Saturday afternoons, we had discussion at the foundation with A. Sujin and a number of the regular Bangkok crew including Sukin, Betty and Num, as well as Ivan and Ell, Saengchan and others. All, Sarah and I arrived back in Hong Kong this morning. The discussion on the list during our absence was lively and stimulating, and Sarah and I very much enjoyed our daily reading of the posts. Many thanks to all for the excellent contributions. I am writing this from my office on Monday afternoon, finding it no easy matter to switch my focus back to work matters again! Jon --- Jim Anderson wrote: > Dear Nina, > > I can easily supply the Pali text from the CSCD and make it > accessible > (temporarily) by uploading the section you've decided on studying > to > the files folder or send offlist. I can even include the relevant > section of the Maha Tika too if desired. > > Best wishes, > Jim 23423 From: christine_forsyth Date: Mon Jul 14, 2003 3:10am Subject: Re: catching -up Hello Sarah and Jon, Lovely to read you again, I hope the holiday has refreshed and revived you both. Sarah - what is it with you and your reading glasses? I seem to remember you having to get a pair made once in Thailand ... sativekalla? :-) Welcome back! metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > In great appreciation of all your wonderful posts we've read to date in > our absence. I left my reading glasses on the plane to Zurich and as a > result am appreciating being able to read without severe strain for the > first time since departure. Jon patiently read posts out to me when he had > a chance to get to a computer, but after being unable to read myself, I'm > enjoying the chance to pick up papers, look at posts and open a book > again. 23424 From: Date: Mon Jul 14, 2003 1:23am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Anicca (Impermanence)/KenH Hi, Robert - In a message dated 7/14/03 1:05:36 AM Eastern Daylight Time, rjkjp1@y... writes: > I listened to Khun Sujin reply to someone who had being talking > about murder. She said: "There was no person, no gun, and no > bullet" then she said words to the effect that we take murder as > being worse than accidental death but both are the result > of conditions. ============================== Robert, was there more that she said along these lines? As it stands, it sounds much like the "wrong view" of a school contemporary to the Buddha and roundly criticized by him. (Something had been said by a representative of that school to the effect that a sword killing a person was nothing more than solidity etc going through solidity.) What about intention? What about kamma? What about lovingkindness? What about morality? If an "ultimate" view involving paramattha dhammas pushes these others out, I would question such a view. If an "ultimate" view presents these others as "wrong" (which I don't believe right view does, because those freed by wisdom are the most loving and moral of all), I would abandon such an "ultimate" view. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 23425 From: Date: Mon Jul 14, 2003 1:34am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Anicca (Impermanence) Hi, Ken (and James) - In a message dated 7/14/03 3:11:32 AM Eastern Daylight Time, kenhowardau@y... writes: > I suggest that the Buddha taught patience. The wholesome > mental factor known as patience, is different from > unwholesome laziness and apathy. > > =============================== Yes, of course he taught patience. He also taught urgency. There is, for example, the following taken from ATI: ************************* § 37. {Iti II.10; Iti 29} This was said by the Blessed One, said by the Arahant, so I have heard: "Endowed with two things, a monk lives in ease in the present life and is appropriately aroused for the ending of the fermentations. Which two? A sense of urgency & awe toward things that should inspire urgency & awe[1] and, feeling urgency & awe, appropriate exertion. Endowed with two things, a monk lives in ease in the present life and is appropriately aroused for the ending of the fermentations." > Feeling urgency, awe, > toward what should inspire it, > the wise, > masterful, > ardent monk > should investigate > with discernment. > One who lives thus ardently, > not restlessly, at peace, > committed to awareness-tranquillity > would attain the ending > of suffering & stress. Note: > 1. Urgency & awe = samvega. Other meanings for this term include shock, > dismay, & alienation. In the Pali Canon, this emotion is often accompanied by > fear and a sensed need to escape from overwhelming danger. The things that > should inspire urgency & awe are the first four of the five reflections listed in > AN V.57: "I am subject to aging, have not gone beyond aging. I am subject to > illness, have not gone beyond illness. I am subject to death, have not gone > beyond death. I will grow different, separate from all that is dear & > appealing to me." Appropriate exertion is indicated by the fifth reflection: "I am > the owner of my actions, heir to my actions, born of my actions, related > through my actions, and have by actions as my arbitrator. Whatever I do, for good > or for evil, to that will I fall heir." [Go back] ****************************** With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 23426 From: m. nease Date: Mon Jul 14, 2003 6:11am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Anicca (Impermanence)--Giving To vs. Giving Up Hi Ken, ----- Original Message ----- From: kenhowardau To: Sent: Monday, July 14, 2003 12:10 AM Subject: [dsg] Re: Anicca (Impermanence) > Again, the wholesome mental factor known as surrender (renunciation), is different > from unwholesome aversion (wanting to be rid of something). This is also different from renunciation in order to gain something, usually tranquility accompanied by pleasant or neutral feeling I think, motivated by desire for or attachment to pleasant or neutral feeling (as opposed to aversion to unpleasant feeling e.g.). "And even neutral feeling which as peaceful the Lord of Wisdom has proclaimed, if, in attachment, he should cling to it, he will not be free from the round of ill." Samyutta Nikaya XXXVI.3 Pahana Sutta http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn36-003.html "It is the happiness and gladness arising dependent on feelings that is the gratification in feelings. Feelings are impermanent, (liable to bring) pain, and are subject to change; this is the danger in feelings. The removal and the giving up of the desire and lust for feelings is the escape from feelings. Samyutta Nikaya XXXVI.15 Santaka Sutta http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn36-015.html As I understand it, the renunciation (caaga?) that is the wholesome factor you refer to above always implies giving TO--not just giving up--especially not just 'giving up' something in order to get something else. For bhikkhus, the Buddha often spoke of the virtue of 'giving up' sense pleasures--not sure what the Paali is. This is different and refers to siila I think rather than daana as above. So it seems to me that this is a common point of confusion--'giving to' vs. 'giving up'. What do you think? mike p.s. Welcome back, Jon and Sarah! 23427 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Jul 14, 2003 10:02am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Anicca (Impermanence)/KenH Hi Andrew, op 14-07-2003 02:16 schreef Andrew op athel60@t...: > Dhamma is a way > of finding out what makes the illusion seem so real. Many people > don't want to know. Lots like myself go through periods of time when > we don't want to know. N: Very good, Andrew. All the people, things, stories we find so important are only, only, nama and rupa. Life is like an empty fist, when we open our hand there is nothing there. A whole story is only one moment of thinking and then gone. But true, we do not like to see that there are only nama and rupa. We do not have to force ourselves not to enjoy life, but the moments of enjoyment are nama and can be realized as such. A lot is gained when in between enjoyment there are some moments of understanding the truth. Nina. 23428 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Jul 14, 2003 10:02am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: My Time with A. Sujin. 5 Dear Kio, op 29-06-2003 20:42 schreef suzakico op suzaki@p...: > are you saying > conditioned thinking is `always' bad, or at times bad? Any comment? N: My time with A. Sujin. 5. A. Sujin helped me to see what is akusala and what is kusala in the situation of daily life. She often said, the teachings are ³not in the book², they are directed to the practice of everyday life. Also the Abhidhamma is not technical, it helps us to have a more refined and detailed knowledge of different cittas as they occur at this moment. When I said that I had enjoyed reading a beautiful sutta, she answered, ²It is so sad when we only think of what is in the book, when we do not apply it.² I realized that we may cling to what we read instead of seeing it as a reminder to develop understanding. A. Sujin introduced me to her friends at her house, where they consulted books of the Tipitaka and discussed points of the Dhamma. She explained to me, ³All we study and discuss is not just for ourselves, it is to be shared with others.² This impressed me very much because I knew very little about sharing kusala with others. It had not occurred to me that even studying the teachings is not just for oneself. She would always help me to have more kusala cittas. When we were in a temple and we had things to offer to the monks she would hand the gifts and books to me, asking me to present them. I was glad to have the opportunity to pay respect to the Triple Gem and show my reverence to the monks. In fact she was helping others all the time to have kusala cittas. We visited Khun Kesinee who wanted to print my book ³Buddhism in Daily Life². Khun Kesinee said, ³Khun Sujin has given me life². This was so true, because she taught us all a new outlook on life, she taught us how right understanding can be developed in our ordinary daily life. She taught us to develop understanding of all phenomena of life in a natural way. Her daughter Khun Amara wrote ³The Lives and Psalms of the Buddha¹s Disciples², inspired by the Thera-therigatha². These are the stories of men and women in the Buddha¹s time who proved in their daily lives that the Path can be developed and enlightenment be attained. A. Sujin and I were very busy to correct the printing proofs of my book, sometimes at night. When we had not heard anything from the printer and I wondered about this, she just answered, ³No news.² This was a good lesson to leave things to conditions and not to expect anything. Later on I thought many times of these words. It is clinging when we expect things to be the way we like them to be. I was glad to meet many of her friends and take part in their life of giving and sharing. We went to temples together with A. Sujin, presenting dana, or attending cremation ceremonies. On Sunday I drove A. Sujin to the temple where she gave lectures on satipatthana and afterwards we sat outside the temple where people asked her more questions about awareness in daily life. Her lectures were put on tape for a radio program. In the course of years the radio stations which sent out her program expanded all over Thailand and to neighbouring countries. I accompanied A. Sujin to different places where people had invited her for a lecture. People were wondering whether there can be awareness of nama and rupa while driving a car. The answer was that it is just the same as being at home, it is normal life. Seeing, thinking or hardness appear time and again. When walking on the street we discussed seeing and thinking of concepts. There were holes in the pavement and if one would only be aware of colour and seeing but not think, one would fall into the holes. We learn that in the ultimate sense there are only nama and rupa, that there are no people, no things. This does not mean that we should not think of people and things. Also thinking of concepts is part of our daily life, we could not function without thinking of concepts. Thinking is a conditioned reality, it is nama, not self. We can think with different types of citta, some are kusala and many are akusala. In the development of satipatthana, we come to know our daily life just as it is. Nina. 23429 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Jul 14, 2003 10:02am Subject: FW: Commentary mahaaraahulovaada sutta, A series Dear friends, Sarah asked me to frwd to dsg my Commentary posts. People who are also on Pali yahoo list will have to bear with me, to have doubles. I have put the English text at the end. ---------- Van: nina van gorkom Datum: Mon, 14 Jul 2003 06:47:03 +0200 Aan: Pali yahoo Onderwerp: Commentary mahaaraahulovaada sutta, A series This A series will be reposted later on, in the B series, (where I start from the beginning) so that all sections are in the right order. I post this now as it explains and elaborates the sutta passages we are doing now. Commentary no 11 (A series): Relevant Sutta passage: ``pathaviisama.m, raahula, bhaavana.m bhaavehi. pathaviisama~nhi te, raahula, bhaavana.m bhaavayato uppannaa manaapaamanaapaa phassaa citta.m na pariyaadaaya .thassanti. Apply yourself to the mental development that is like the earth, Rahula, For, Rahula, agreeable and disagreeable impressions that have arisen when you apply yourself to the mental development that is like the earth, will not persistently overwhelm the mind. Commentary: words: idaanissa: idaani assa taadibhaava: the nature of suchness, highest qualification of the arahat (PED). taadibhaavalakkha.na: the characteristic of such. arajjati: he is not attached adussati: he has no aversion. lobhasahagatacittasampayuttaa: consciousness accompanied by attachment. sahagata: together with. sampayutta: accompanied by antomu.t.thi: clenched fist (anto: inside. mu.t.thi: fist) gahetva: from ga.nhati: seize, take hold of. pasanna: clear, bright (pasiidati). va.n.na: colour, appearance. punna: again Co: 119. idaanissa taadibhaavalakkha.na.m aacikkhanto pathaviisamantiaadimaaha. Now he said, when explaining the characteristic of such nature (of the highest qualification), ³like the earth² and so on. i.t.thaani.t.thesu hi arajjanto adussanto taadii naama hoti. not being attached nor having aversion with regard to the desirable and the undesirable is ³suchness². manaapaamanaapaati ettha a.t.tha lobhasahagatacittasampayuttaa manaapaa naama, with regard to the words agreeable and disagreeable, here the eight types of consciousness accompanied by attachment are agreeable, dve domanassacittasampayuttaa amanaapaa naama. and two types of consciousness accompanied by unpleasant feeling are disagreeable *. citta.m na pariyaadaaya .thassantiiti ete phassaa uppajjitvaa With reference to the words, when these impressions have arisen, they do not persistently obsess the mind, tava citta.m antomu.t.thigata.m karonto viya and your mind makes just as it were a clenched fist, pariyaadaaya gahetvaa .thaatu.m na sakkhissanti, (these impressions that) overwhelm, when you have mastered them, they cannot stay. ``aha.m sobhaami,mayha.m va.n.naayatana.m pasanna''nti As regards the words, ³I am beautiful, my appearance is splendid², puna attabhaava.m nissaaya chandaraago nuppajjissati. again, attachment that is dependent on the body does not arise. guuthagatantiaadiisu guuthameva guuthagata.m. eva.m sabbattha. As to the expression, ordure and so on, it is truly excrement, filthy in all respects. English text: Now he said, when explaining the characteristic of such nature (of the highest qualification), ³like the earth² and so on. not being attached nor having aversion with regard to the desirable and the undesirable is ³suchness². with regard to the words agreeable and disagreeable, here the eight types of consciousness accompanied by attachment are agreeable, and two types of consciousness accompanied by unpleasant feeling are disagreeable *. With reference to the words, when these impressions have arisen, they do not persistently obsess the mind, and your mind makes just as it were a clenched fist, (these impressions that) overwhelm, when you have mastered them, they cannot stay. As regards the words, ³I am beautiful, my appearance is splendid², again, attachment that is dependent on the body does not arise. As to the expression, ordure and so on, it is truly excrement, filthy in all respects. * note: There are eight (a.t.tha) akusala cittas rooted in lobha: four with pleasant feeling, four with indifferent feeling, four with wrong view (di.t.thi), four without wrong view, four not induced or spontaneous(asa²nkhaarika) and four induced (sasa²nkhaarika) There are two akusala cittas rooted in dosa: domanassacittasampayuttaa: consciousness accompanied by unpleasant feeling (that is: citta rooted in aversion or hate). One of them is not induced(asa²nkhaarika) and one is induced (sasa²nkhaarika). Nina. 23430 From: rjkjp1 Date: Mon Jul 14, 2003 11:10am Subject: [dsg] Re: Anicca (Impermanence)/KenH --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Robert - > > In a message dated 7/14/03 1:05:36 AM Eastern Daylight Time, rjkjp1@y... > writes: > > > I listened to Khun Sujin reply to someone who had being talking > > about murder. She said: "There was no person, no gun, and no > > bullet" then she said words to the effect that we take murder as > > being worse than accidental death but both are the result > > of conditions. > ============================== > Robert, was there more that she said along these lines? As it stands, > it sounds much like the "wrong view" of a school contemporary to the Buddha > and roundly criticized by him. (Something had been said by a representative of > that school to the effect that a sword killing a person was nothing more than > solidity etc going through solidity.) What about intention? What about kamma? > What about lovingkindness? What about morality? If an "ultimate" view involving > paramattha dhammas pushes these others out, I would question such a view. If > an "ultimate" view presents these others as "wrong" (which I don't believe > right view does, because those freed by wisdom are the most loving and moral of > all), I would abandon such an "ultimate" view. > ___________ Dear Howard, Thanks for asking this question. In Mahapunnama Sutta (majjhima Nikaya 109)the Buddha was explaining in various ways about anatta and how all phenomena are not self. Then a monk wondered about where kamma came into the picture. The Buddha knew his thoughts: "It is possible, bhikkhus, that some misguided man here, obtuse and ignorant, with his mind dominated by craving, might think that he can outstrip the Teacher's Dispensation thus: `So, it seems, material form is not self, feeling is not self, perception is not self, formations are not self consciousness is not self. What self, then, will actions done by the not-self affect?" The Buddha then said: "Now, bhikkhus, you have been trained by me in dependent (conditionality) in various instances." And the sutta continues to reinforce that all the khandhas are anatta. "seeing thus, a well taught noble disciple becomes disenchanted with material form..feeling..perception..formations..consciousness... ..now while this discourse was being spoken ..the minds of sixty bhikkhus were liberated from the taints" If there is really energy to investigate the present moment then one will be interested in any dhammas that arise - even while dying or being killed. If there is not this direct study there is likely to be hatred or anger towards the person who is killing. This can only happen if one is caught up in attachment to concept. By right view, understanding paramattha dhammas, one will know that the sutta where the Buddha told the monks that even if robbers should cut them up with a two-handed saw that if they had anger at this then at that time they were not follwing the teaching, is not only an ideal but is actually possible. Nina quoted the commentary to the Maharahula sutta where it says the Buddha had the same unlimited metta to Devadatta - who tried to kill him - as he did to his own son Rahula. Perhaps we hear this and resolve that we should be like that. But how? Not by trying with the idea of "me" who should be good or wise but by an entirely different effort, a profound letting go of the idea of self. Robertk 23431 From: Date: Mon Jul 14, 2003 3:21pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Anicca (Impermanence) Hi Nina, The proximate cause of concentration is piti (joyful interest). Joyful interest comes first, then concentration, then insight. Piti isn't categorized under feeling. Maybe the idea of kusala could inspire piti. What do you think? Larry ------------------ Nina: Hi Larry, Kusala citta with panna developing insight can be accompanied by pleasant feeling or by indifferent feeling. Nina. op 13-07-2003 18:43 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: As to insight: So what is the object of joyful interest in insight practice? .... Whatever the object is it has to inspire joyful interest somehow. Any thoughts? 23432 From: Date: Mon Jul 14, 2003 3:59pm Subject: what next Hi Jon and Jim, I don't know how this file on Visuddhimagga and commentary would work but we need to make sure Nina knows how to use it. It's going to be about 10 more days before I'm ready to go. Harry is having a hell of a time. It's really distressing. ~:-0 Larry 23433 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Jul 14, 2003 9:13pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Anicca (Impermanence)/KenH Dear Howard, I perfectly understand what you mean. We can read such lines the wrong way. No, she meant something else. From the point of view of the receiver of such pain, it is the same whether there is a bullet or another cause of his death. Here she did not speak of the person who kills, thus, of the other side. Who kills commits kamma and he will receive the result of his deed. Nina. op 14-07-2003 14:23 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: > Robert, was there more that she said along these lines? As it stands, > it sounds much like the "wrong view" of a school contemporary to the Buddha > and roundly criticized by him. (Something had been said by a representative of > that school to the effect that a sword killing a person was nothing more than > solidity etc going through solidity.) What about intention? What about kamma? > What about lovingkindness? What about morality? 23434 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Jul 14, 2003 9:13pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Anicca (Impermanence) Dear Howard, I love that text, it was once posted in Pali by one of our teachers. op 14-07-2003 14:34 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: > : "I am subject to aging, have not gone beyond aging. I am subject to >> illness, have not gone beyond illness. I am subject to death, have not gone >> beyond death. I will grow different, separate from all that is dear & >> appealing to me." Appropriate exertion is indicated by the fifth reflection: >> "I am >> the owner of my actions, heir to my actions, born of my actions, related >> through my actions, and have by actions as my arbitrator. Whatever I do, for >> good >> or for evil, to that will I fall heir." 23435 From: Sarah Date: Mon Jul 14, 2003 11:55pm Subject: Blame it on Jackie Chan;-) Hi Christine, (Larry, Kom & James at the end), --- christine_forsyth wrote: > Hello Sarah and Jon, > > Lovely to read you again, I hope the holiday has refreshed and > revived you both. .... Thanks for your kind words and let me also join the welcomes to any new members who’ve joined or posted while we’ve been away (or old members returning to post after taking a break;-)) .... >arah - what is it with you and your reading > glasses? I seem to remember you having to get a pair made once in > Thailand ... sativekalla? :-) Welcome back! .... hmmm....Chris, you weren’t meant to point that out:-) I must confess that this was the pair made up in record time for just a few dollars on the beach at Koh Samui-- which I'd become quite attached to -- when I left the other pair at home. Unfortunately, Swiss mountain villages don’t share the same business acumen of Thai beaches and told me I’d have to take a 90 minute train ride back down to the nearest large town to get prescribed glasses at great expense. Actually, I blame it all on Jackie Chan. There I was quietly reading an installment of Perfections in the middle of a long night flight, having got a little behind with my reading before the trip, when Jackie distracted me with an amazing umbrella kung fu sequence on the big screen. Having decided at the beginning of the flight -- as usual -- that I’d just be sleeping and reading dhamma, I started rummaging around -- as usual -- for Jon’s headphones so that I could continue reading, watching the movie and taking the odd refreshment all at the same time. I accept that with the combination of such distractable accumulations, middle-age and night-time flights, that it’s time for a chain on my reading glasses at the very least. Now if only it were so simple as a few good intentions to just quietly read.... On return to Zurich airport at the end of the trip, looking through the full drawer of other lost glasses for the week, I drew some consolation from the others suffering from the same affliction. But that didn’t seem very kind or compassionate on my part.... Actually it was a great break from my usual habits in all regards and my eyes were given a great rest too. I thought about your qu about helping mothers with the dhamma while I mostly avoided any controversial issues with my own for the holiday, (but must admit I was more than a tad impatient at times;-( ). My mother’s also very religious (Anglican) in her own way, was the daughter of a clergyman, reads the early lesson at Church which she attends very regularly, arranges the flowers at the nearby Cathedral, works voluntarily in the local cancer hospice and so on, but avoids any discussion. We showed her you 'gratitude post' and the answer was simple: a prayer of gratitude to God. End of discussion. However, she’s had 30 years to get used to having a ‘Buddhist daughter’ and tells me that unlike the early days, her friends now think it’s wonderful and she tells them it has very good effects. When I was young our relationship was never easy, but we have great mutual respect now for each other’s way of life and when she told us that this was possibly the best holiday she’d ever had in her life, it was a truly great gift. I’d mention small points or gentle encouragement of generosity or tolerance for example, but I’ve learnt not to ‘push’ any agenda. Over 20 years ago, my mother had K.Sujin (and her late father) to stay in her house and appreciated K.Sujin’s presence, but she’d prepare beautiful English teas whilst avoiding the sessions arranged for discussing the Dhamma. K.Sujin would then wander round the garden with her learning about the flowers or help with the wasing-up, taking an interest in Sussex life, appreciating my mother’s hospitality, but not pursuing dhamma. I mentioned your qu in Bangkok as well at the weekend and K.Sujin’s reply was like Ven Yanatharo’s helpful comments. She simply said “Right person at the right place and the right time”. In other words, it’s not kind or useful to talk dhamma to those who don’t wish or are ready to hear. Betty and others pointed out that the same is true with spouses, other family members and friends too. Again, I think the only difficulty is the present attachment. Metta and glad to be back. Sarah p.s So glad to hear your Pali studies are going so well. Is sativekalla a new kind of Russian soup?:-) Larry, whilst reading Perfections, watching Jackie and losing glasses, I also managed to do some informal research on a neighbour reading the latest Harry. She just finished the book by the time we landed - so that’s what it takes -- just one flight from Bangkok to Zurich to speed up your installments of Vism:-) Kom & James, enjoyed your discussion. We saw many goats playfully locking horns in Switzerland - I think we can all appreciate how much we share here in terms of appreciation and reflection/practice of the Buddha's teachings and seeing the value in discussion at all. Hopefully you'll find a way to 'unlock' and carry on for all our sakes;-) ====================================== 23436 From: kenhowardau Date: Tue Jul 15, 2003 0:26am Subject: Re: Anicca (Impermanence)/KenH Christine, You wrote: ------------ > I wonder if people with different world views can ever really understand each other? Maybe next time just say: "Yeah things are crook mate - doesn't seem very much point in anything somedays - maybe it's all sent to teach us lessons - I dunno - here, chuck these snags on the barbie will ya?" :-) ------------- You're right, -- stick with tradition. :-) Even so, I wonder if the few seconds of 'quality time' I had with my friends, may have sown a few seeds. Their wanting to change the subject almost immediately was not necessarily a bad sign. Perhaps there was enough kusala listening, for them to momentarily glimpse the emptiness of existence. Aversion could reasonably be expected to follow soon after(self perception doesn't approve of right understanding). --------------- >> KenH: "Is there any point in dwelling on the impermanence, unsatisfactoriness and soullessness of concepts -- things that aren't even real? I think it can only be depressing. On the other hand, dwelling on the anicca, dukkha and anatta of paramattha dhammas is uplifting, inspiring, liberating! >> > Chris: What about 'no control'? Don't thoughts arise unbidden? Are you now saying I CAN direct my mind? :-) > ---------------- I get caught out with this all the time. Thanks for the reminder -- just as I was getting into the evangelistic swing of things. Would it have been more accurate to have said that Dhamma study can act as a conditioning factor for pleasant feelings and right understanding? -------------- > The idea that a complex problem can be solved by giving the bare facts presupposes that because something is fact, commonsense or reality - that anyone would be grateful to be told this, and that causes their problem to evaporate. :-) > ------------------- It's easy to get 'back to basics' when solving other people's problems. I prefer the 'tea and sympathy' approach for my own. ----------------- > If someone regularly whacked you on the kneecap with a ballpeen hammer and then told you not to mention it as no harm can come to you, there is no ballpeen hammer, there is no 'knee' there is no 'you', would it seem to you that there was a slight gap between the theory and your own experience? > ---------------- I'd be too busy screaming to give it a second thought. But we won't need to perform that experiment; the theory has already been proved by Venerable Upasena (as seen in Robert's reply). Kind regards, Ken H 23437 From: Sarah Date: Tue Jul 15, 2003 2:42am Subject: Re: [dsg] FW: Commentary mahaaraahulovaada sutta, A series Dear Nina, I’ve been appreciating all your posts to everyone. --- nina van gorkom wrote: > Commentary no 11 (A series): > > Relevant Sutta passage: > > ``pathaviisama.m, raahula, bhaavana.m bhaavehi. pathaviisama~nhi te, > raahula, bhaavana.m bhaavayato uppannaa manaapaamanaapaa phassaa citta.m > na > pariyaadaaya .thassanti. > Apply yourself to the mental development that is like the earth, Rahula, > For, Rahula, agreeable and disagreeable impressions that have arisen > when > you apply yourself to the mental development that is like the earth, > will > not persistently overwhelm the mind. ...... Such good reminders always. Of course, no self to ‘do’ anything, but appreciating how panna can only develop with detachment to whatever arises now is the only way that it can grow. Like the earth accepts the dust, dirt and excrement without being affected or overwhelmed. .... > Co: 119. > English text: > As regards the words, 3I am beautiful, my appearance is splendid2, > again, attachment that is dependent on the body does not arise. > As to the expression, ordure and so on, it is truly excrement, filthy in > all > respects. .... I note ordure is another word for dung (I wasn’t familiar with it). Rahula could really appreciate these words - how the body is like excrement, ‘filthy in all respects’. For me, it’s difficult to even reflect on these lines with equanimity and no aversion. Any understanding is so very superficial, even though I appreciate the lines and reminders. K. Sujin was stressing that if there isn’t enough detachment to understand and be aware of present namas and rupas appearing, there cannot possibly be the developed detachment which makes possible the deeper wisdom which knows the arising and passing away of realities and understanding of khandhas. (I’ll try to add more later when I’ve considered more - I raised one of your qus which you'd asked Jon to raise some time back on 'groups'). With metta, Sarah ====== 23438 From: Date: Mon Jul 14, 2003 11:35pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Anicca (Impermanence)/KenH Hi, Nina - In a message dated 7/15/03 12:13:55 AM Eastern Daylight Time, nilo@e... writes: > > Dear Howard, > I perfectly understand what you mean. We can read such lines the wrong way. > No, she meant something else. From the point of view of the receiver of such > pain, it is the same whether there is a bullet or another cause of his > death. Here she did not speak of the person who kills, thus, of the other > side. Who kills commits kamma and he will receive the result of his deed. > Nina. > > op 14-07-2003 14:23 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: > > >Robert, was there more that she said along these lines? As it stands, > >it sounds much like the "wrong view" of a school contemporary to the Buddha > >and roundly criticized by him. (Something had been said by a representative > of > >that school to the effect that a sword killing a person was nothing more > than > >solidity etc going through solidity.) What about intention? What about > kamma? > >What about lovingkindness? What about morality? > > ============================= Thank you, Nina. That fully clarifies the matter and answers my question with complete satisfaction. I'm so pleased that this is what was meant. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 23439 From: phamdluan2000 Date: Tue Jul 15, 2003 6:34am Subject: Re: Blame it on Jackie Chan;-) Dear Sarah, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: < snip > My mother's also very religious (Anglican) in her own way, was the daughter of a clergyman, reads the early lesson at Church which she attends very regularly, arranges the flowers at the nearby Cathedral, works voluntarily in the local cancer hospice and so on, but avoids any discussion. We showed her you 'gratitude post' and the answer was simple: a prayer of gratitude to God. End of discussion. However, she's had 30 years to get used to having a `Buddhist daughter' and tells me that unlike the early days, her friends now think it's wonderful and she tells them it has very good effects. KKT: Reading this reminds me of something I've just read some days ago: My son, the Missionary http://www.davidgodman.org/interviews/missionary.shtml The difference is that David Godman practises Hinduism :-)) Peace, KKT 23440 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Jul 15, 2003 10:11am Subject: Perfections, Ch 11, Equanimity, no 8 Perfections, Ch 11, Equanimity, no 8 The Bodhisatta was unshakable and impartial, having no attachment to people who gave him pleasant things, such as flowers, unguents and food, and having no anger towards those who disturbed him and made him suffer. We read: At that time the Buddha taught impartiality, not exceeding what is normal, not clinging to the vicissitudes of life. He was equipped with the requisite of enlightenment that is wisdom and hence he was impartial towards all beings, to those who supported him as well as those who did not. He finally said: ²I am evenminded towards happiness and misery, towards honour and dishonour, I am impartial towards everything, and this is my perfection of equanimity.² The perfection of equanimity is evenmindedness, being without happiness and anguish, like a scale that is well-balanced. The Buddha showed that he was impartial to all beings and to all vicissitudes of life, and this degree of equanimity is not common to other people. We read in the Commentary to the ³Basket of Conduct²: The Bodhisatta developed all ten perfections. Beginning with generosity, he gave away all his possesions and his own body, without concern over whatever others wanted to do with it. That is the perfection of generosity. He abstained from whatever was improper and wrong, and that is the perfection of morality. He developed the perception of the foulness of his body, he abandoned attachment to sense pleasures, he left his home for the homeless life, and that is the perfection of renunciation. He was skilled in the discerning of the dhammas which are a support for the requisites of enlighhtenment and skilled in the abandoning of the dhammas opposed to those requisites. He was skilled in considering the specific nature of the beneficial dhammas, discriminating them from the wrong dhammas, and this is the perfection of paññå. The disenchantment with sense pleasures and the endeavour to endure suffering is the perfection of energy. Endurance and forbearance are the perfection of patience. Truthfulness in speech and in the practice of abstention from what is wrong is the perfection of truthfulness. The firm, unshakable practice of what is right is the perfection of determination. Loving-kindness and affection for all beings without being selective is the perfection of loving-kindness. As regards the perfection of equanimity of the Bodhisatta, this has just been explained above. In the ³Conduct of Equanimity² of the ³Basket of Conduct², the perfection of equanimity to the highest degree has been dealt with in order to proclaim the benefit and the power of the excellent qualities of the Bodhisatta. He gave up his his wealth, his circle of relatives, and he left his home, in the same way as someone who enters the state of monkhood, although he did not become a monk. He lived in the same way as a monk. The Bodhisatta did not cling to the state of monkhood, he was averse to favours and praise that accrue to the monk. The monk has to take into consideration the reverence that people show him, and he wishes for all the excellent things that come with monkhood. The Bodhisatta was just a monk at heart, he had the mentality of a monk, and in this way he lived in utmost happiness. 23441 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Jul 15, 2003 10:11am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Anicca (Impermanence) Dear Larry, op 15-07-2003 00:21 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > The proximate cause of concentration is piti (joyful interest). Joyful > interest comes first, then concentration, then insight. Piti isn't > categorized under feeling. Maybe the idea of kusala could inspire piti. > What do you think? N: I think that attachment plays us tricks all the time. When there is piti (in the case of cittas of the sense sphere) there is also pleasant feeling. When there is pleasant feeling and piti: beware, because most of the time there is lobha, with or without wrong view. We may cling to our interest and joy. You write: I do not see a specific order in the texts. Intellectual understanding, pondering over the Dhamma are conditions for the gradual building up of direct understanding. Awareness of one reality at a time that appears now is not a matter of concentration. When we read about proximate cause, it does not mean that this has to be before the reality it is proximate cause of, it can well be at the same time. We should not mind what kind of feeling arises, understanding reality and detachment is the goal. Nina. P.S. Are you going on a tour? Have a nice time. 23442 From: Date: Tue Jul 15, 2003 3:51pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Anicca (Impermanence) Hi Nina, Dangerous or not, I think there has to be piti in order for there to be insight, just as there has to be sati. The question is, what is the object of piti. Presumably, the arising of dukkha for a path wise bhikkhu would cue the arising of joyful interest. Why? Larry 23443 From: Mom Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala Date: Tue Jul 15, 2003 8:52pm Subject: Burma itinerary, finally Dear Friends, For those of you who might be interested in joining Than Achaan Sujin and members of the Dhamma Study and Support Foundation for what we hope will be a worthwhile and memorable trip to Burma, including lots of time for Dhamma discussions and a presentation of food to monks, the following information is given. The trip will go from October 20 (meet at Don Muang Airport 6am) - Oct 24 (arrival at Don Muang 18:40-6:40pm) and will cost Baht 27,500 per person, for double room occupancy or Baht 31,900 for single room occupancy. You will need to make your own arrangements to and from Bangkok, as well as hotel accomodations before and after the dates of the trip. If you would like a copy of the itinerary, please send me an e-mail at my private email address below and I will send it to you as an attachment to your private email address, which you will need to provide as well. metta, Betty _______________________ Mom Bongkojpriya Yugala 38 Soi 41 Phaholyothin Road Bangkok 10900, Thailand tel: 662-579-1050; 661-826-7160 e-mail: beyugala@k... 23444 From: kenhowardau Date: Tue Jul 15, 2003 11:58pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Anicca (Impermanence)--Giving To vs. Giving Up Hi Mike, > > > As I understand it, the renunciation (caaga?) that is the wholesome factor > you refer to above always implies giving TO--not just giving up-- especially > not just 'giving up' something in order to get something else. > > For bhikkhus, the Buddha often spoke of the virtue of 'giving up' sense > pleasures--not sure what the Paali is. This is different and refers to > siila I think rather than daana as above. So it seems to me that this is a > common point of confusion--'giving to' vs. 'giving up'. What do you think? > I'm not sure what to think. Could renunciation (nekkhamma), simply be wholesome consciousness and could the difference between dana, sila and renunciation depend purely on the surrounding circumstances? From THE PERFECTIONS LEADING TO ENLIGHTENMENT (by Nina): "Renunciation has the characteristic of departing from sense pleasures and existence; its function is to verify the unsatisfactoriness they involve; its manifestation is the withdrawal from them; a sense of spiritual urgency is its proximate cause." It seems to me that the above definition could apply to any consciousness that has kusala [or right] thought. So, could it be that kusala consciousness with root cause, is called dana whenever there is a valued object and a living-being it can be given to; sila, where there is a living being who can be helped [or left unharmed]; and renunciation, where there is a possession (material or mental), that can be either put aside or forgone? That's all I can suggest so far; I need to do a lot more reading. Kind regards, Ken 23445 From: Sarah Date: Wed Jul 16, 2003 0:04am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Blame it on Jackie Chan;-) Hi KKT, --- phamdluan2000 wrote: > KKT: Reading this reminds me > of something I've just read > some days ago: > > My son, the Missionary > > http://www.davidgodman.org/interviews/missionary.shtml > > The difference is that > David Godman practises Hinduism :-)) ..... Thank for this -- I enjoyed the article very much, even if he practises Hinduism :-)) Sometime I must ask my mother what gloss she put on her only daughter’s trip to India all those years ago, when I was last seen heading East on the back of a motor-bike in hippie garb, just occasionally sending aerogrammes from a tea-stall in Afghanistan, a Tibetan tent in Bodh Gaya, a forest temple in Sri Lanka or a mountain room full of hepatitis sufferers in Nepal. I think I became an ‘Explorer’. Like the Missionary son, I doubt the Buddhist parts got much of a mention and were always ignored in the replies;-) Only now do I really appreciate the great encouragement and lack of concern or worry she’s always expressed for anything I’ve ever undertaken in life. Quite unusual, I think for a mother. So, KKT, I see you’re reading widely as usual. What are your latest reflections on current topics such as this one of helping parents? Always appreciate your comments. Metta, Sarah ======= 23446 From: Sarah Date: Wed Jul 16, 2003 0:30am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Anicca (Impermanence)/KenH Hi Ken H, Appreciating all your gems. This was a good one: --- kenhowardau wrote: > > It's easy to get 'back to basics' when solving other > people's problems. I prefer the 'tea and sympathy' > approach for my own. .... ;-) Even for those of us who’ve read and considered the Dhamma quite a bit, there are ‘right place’ and ‘right time’ factors to be considered..... ..... > I'd be too busy screaming to give it a second thought. > But we won't need to perform that experiment; the theory > has already been proved by Venerable Upasena (as seen in > Robert's reply). ..... ;-) I think Christine’s point is the one Erik used to make so eloquently which doesn’t mean we cannot be inspired by Ven Upasena. I particularly appreciated this summary you wrote in a post to James: Ken H:“I think any action designed to bring about non-arisen states or eliminate existing states, involves attachment or aversion. The objective is to understand arisen states, not to control them”. Thanks to James as well for encouraging everyone to reflect and respond further. Keep it up! Metta, Sarah p.s another good one, maybe to Howard: Ken H: “The fact of no-self makes a mockery of everything we say, do and aspire to, in conventional, worldly life. Whether we think we are surfers or meditators, we are quite mad” ;-) even good Buddhists as Mike would point out. ====== 23447 From: Sarah Date: Wed Jul 16, 2003 0:45am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Anicca (Impermanence)/KenH Hi RobK, --- rjkjp1 wrote: > ..... but for sure insight can arise when traffic approaches. > Actually I find that it is often in hard circumstances when the > elements of the Dhamma come together. It can happen almost > instantly. > I mentioned a while back how Ronald Graham, a > well-known mathematician said "You can do mathematics anywhere. I > once had a flash of insight into a problem in the middle of a back > somersault with a triple twist on my trampoline ( in the "The man > who Loved only Numbers"). And insight can come in faster than that > because it doesn't need conceptualising to occur. ..... I like this example very much (I meant to comment when you mentioned it before, so I’m glad you repeated it). The ideas of single, focussed attention and slow movement are very ingrained, but don’t take account of our various accumulations and tendencies for wrong views and desires for particular results. Even if one were performing the triple twisted somersault and be distracted and fall as a result, it would not preclude any opportunity for sati and insight (panna) to arise. If one were to suggest otherwise, I think it would again be an example of the attachment or aversion Ken H referred to for bringing about non-arisen states or eliminating existing ones, rather than, like Ven Upasena, developing detachment from presently arising elements. Thanks for the sutta and helpful comments. Metta, Sarah ====== 23448 From: Sarah Date: Wed Jul 16, 2003 0:50am Subject: Re: [dsg] Hello from a new (old!) member Hi, Clyde and Howard, Welcome Clyde from me as well. We have older members, rest assured! H:> Thanks for writing, Clyde. I look forward to many interesting > conversations with you. As for suggestions, please feel welcome to > contact me on list > or off about whatever you wish. ..... Please keep sharing your suggestions and conversations with us all here;-) As always, appreciating your comments and sutta references, Howard. Metta, Sarah ====== 23449 From: buddhatrue Date: Wed Jul 16, 2003 3:09am Subject: Re: Anicca (Impermanence)/KenH --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > Hi Ken H, > I particularly appreciated this summary you wrote in a post to James: > > Ken H:"I think any action designed to bring about non-arisen states or > eliminate existing states, involves attachment or aversion. The objective > is to understand arisen states, not to control them". > > Thanks to James as well for encouraging everyone to reflect and respond > further. Keep it up! Hi Sarah, LOL! Do you really see that? I don't see that at all. If being a target is considered encouraging reflection and response, I guess I do fit that role well. I understand that you are trying to be encouraging, which is very sweet, but I am getting more than a little fed up with the members of this group who believe they know everything about everything. People should consider how close they are to enlightenment as a testament to what they know, not how pithy they are in responding to posts. Metta, James 23450 From: Sarah Date: Wed Jul 16, 2003 3:35am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Anicca (Impermanence)/KenH Hi James, --- buddhatrue wrote: > LOL! Do you really see that? I don't see that at all. If being a > target is considered encouraging reflection and response, I guess I > do fit that role well. ..... LOL here too! I can’t speak for others, but I know for myself that when someone persuasively presents another point of view from a reading of the same suttas -- as you often do -- and one tries to respond according to what one understands (and using a minimum of Pali;-)), that these are often the times one learns most and sees the weaknesses in this understanding. ..... >I understand that you are trying to be > encouraging, which is very sweet, .... and sincerely meant... .... >but I am getting more than a little > fed up with the members of this group who believe they know > everything about everything. People should consider how close they > are to enlightenment as a testament to what they know, not how pithy > they are in responding to posts. .... Hey James, you’d get a lot more fed up if they weren’t ‘pithy’ in responses and if they started every line with “I may be wrong and I’m not close to enlightenment so don’t think I know everything or anything much about anything, but if you would kindly listen in and let me reflect out loud.....and so on ad nauseum". We all know this is a discussion group and we’re just giving comments according to our present understanding which can be questioned and challenged at any time. Without contrary and controversial views, it would be the end of discussion. Hope you’re having a good summer and good to see you around. Metta, Sarah ====== 23451 From: buddhatrue Date: Wed Jul 16, 2003 3:54am Subject: Re: Anicca (Impermanence)/KenH --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > Hi James, > > --- buddhatrue wrote: > > LOL! Do you really see that? I don't see that at all. If being a > > target is considered encouraging reflection and response, I guess I > > do fit that role well. > ..... > LOL here too! I can't speak for others, but I know for myself that when > someone persuasively presents another point of view from a reading of the > same suttas -- as you often do -- and one tries to respond according to > what one understands (and using a minimum of Pali;-)), that these are > often the times one learns most and sees the weaknesses in this > understanding. > Hi Sarah, Yea, I guess you are right. And I wasn't referring to you. I guess you were gone a little too long and it seemed to me that things started to get a little ugly around here ;-). Metta, James 23452 From: Sarah Date: Wed Jul 16, 2003 5:06am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Anicca (Impermanence)/KenH Hi James. --- buddhatrue wrote: > Hi Sarah, > > Yea, I guess you are right. And I wasn't referring to you. I guess > you were gone a little too long and it seemed to me that things > started to get a little ugly around here ;-). ..... Things looked particularly pretty here to me and I was thinking I might go away for longer next time ;-) thanks James for the welcome back -- much appreciated. Metta, Sarah ======= 23453 From: m. nease Date: Wed Jul 16, 2003 5:50am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Anicca (Impermanence)--Giving To vs. Giving Up Hi Ken, ----- Original Message ----- From: kenhowardau To: Sent: Tuesday, July 15, 2003 11:58 PM Subject: [dsg] Re: Anicca (Impermanence)--Giving To vs. Giving Up > I'm not sure what to think. Could renunciation (nekkhamma), > simply be wholesome consciousness and could the difference > between dana, sila and renunciation depend purely on the > surrounding circumstances? Interesting idea-- > From THE PERFECTIONS LEADING TO ENLIGHTENMENT (by Nina): > > "Renunciation has the characteristic of departing from > sense pleasures and existence; its function is to verify > the unsatisfactoriness they involve; its manifestation is > the withdrawal from them; a sense of spiritual urgency is > its proximate cause." This has the ring of 'pabbajjaa' to me which, as you know, means 'going forth' (to be a bhikkhu) but also has the meaning of 'renunciation'. Going forth seems to me to partake of siila for sure (taking precepts) and maybe bhaavanaa (as a part of the monastic routine?) but not necessarily of daana? > It seems to me that the above definition could apply to > any consciousness that has kusala [or right] thought. It does seem to me that it (nekkhamma) might be conditioned by right thought. A right thought might be one of the three but not the other two, I think (of daana, siila and bhaavanaa). > So, could it be that kusala consciousness with root > cause, is called dana whenever there is a valued object > and a living-being it can be given to; sila, where there > is a living being who can be helped [or left unharmed]; > and renunciation, where there is a possession (material > or mental), that can be either put aside or forgone? This does seem to sum up the differences, though again I think the third is iffy. What started this train of thought is the idea in some schools of Zen etc. that if 'one lets go' of ignorance, aversion and desire that wisdom, compassion and purity are already present as characteristics of 'Buddha-nature', 'original mind' and so on. So this kind of 'letting go' takes on a unique virtue, i.e. leading directly to 'enlightenment'. Interesting (and attractive!) as I find this proposition, I think it's contrary to the Buddhadhamma as expressed in the Paali texts. So it's the idea of 'letting go' in this sense that I'm wary of. > That's all I can suggest so far; I need to do a lot more > reading. So do I--I'm sure the answer's there somewhere in the commentaries--maybe one of our scholars can unearth it. Thanks for the interesting discussion. mike 23454 From: Charles Thompson Date: Wed Jul 16, 2003 9:53am Subject: Re: [dsg] Burma itinerary, finally Hello, May I add this, your e-mail, to a MSN Theravadan forum I moderate? Please advise. Thank you. metta (maitri), Chuck Thompson ----- Original Message ----- From: Mom Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala To: dhamma study group Sent: Tuesday, July 15, 2003 11:52 PM Subject: [dsg] Burma itinerary, finally Dear Friends, For those of you who might be interested in joining Than Achaan Sujin and members of the Dhamma Study and Support Foundation for what we hope will be a worthwhile and memorable trip to Burma, including lots of time for Dhamma discussions and a presentation of food to monks, the following information is given. The trip will go from October 20 (meet at Don Muang Airport 6am) - Oct 24 (arrival at Don Muang 18:40-6:40pm) and will cost Baht 27,500 per person, for double room occupancy or Baht 31,900 for single room occupancy. You will need to make your own arrangements to and from Bangkok, as well as hotel accomodations before and after the dates of the trip. If you would like a copy of the itinerary, please send me an e-mail at my private email address below and I will send it to you as an attachment to your private email address, which you will need to provide as well. metta, Betty _______________________ Mom Bongkojpriya Yugala 38 Soi 41 Phaholyothin Road Bangkok 10900, Thailand tel: 662-579-1050; 661-826-7160 e-mail: beyugala@k... 23455 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Jul 16, 2003 10:33am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Anicca (Impermanence) Dear Larry, op 16-07-2003 00:51 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > > Dangerous or not, I think there has to be piti in order for there to be > insight, just as there has to be sati. N: Of the eight types of kusala citta four are accompanied by panna, four by pleasant feeling, four by indifferent feeling. Thus, two kusala cittas accompanied by panna have pleasant feeling, two have indifferent feeling. Only those with pleasant feeling are accompanied by piti. Very strange if one can only develop insight with pleasant feeling and piti. Do you have a textual reference for this? Nobody can cause the arising of somanassa and piti at will. Nina. 23456 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Wed Jul 16, 2003 0:50pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Anicca (Impermanence) Hi Howard and all, Worldly dhamma is impermanent, dukkha/unsatisfactory, not self, whether one is uprooted of greed, aversion, and delusion or not. When one is uprooted of effluents, he or she is freed from the round of rebirth. He or she knows that 'Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There is nothing further for this world.' However, the conditioned, the worldly dhamma is still impermanent. It is still unsatisfactory/dukkha. It is still not self. Your comments are appreciated. Peace, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Ken (and Christine) - [snip] > Howard: > You mention clinging, Ken. I think this is key. Christine, you have > pointed to impermanance as primary in causing suffering and even considered > identifying suffering with impermanence. I think the former is correct, but the > latter is not quite correct. Impermanence and conditionality are just that. In > and of themselves, there is nothing wrong with them. But together with the > ignorance that (unconsciously) takes the impermanent to be permanent and > conditioned to be self-existent, and the craving for and attachment to what does not > remain and is not self-sufficient, there arises suffering. When ignorance, > craving, and aversion have been uprooted, still all worldly dhammas will be > impermanent and conditioned, but no suffering will arise from that. From ATI, there > is the following: > ***************************************** > The definition > > > > "And this, monks is the noble truth of the origination of dukkha: the > > craving that makes for further becoming -- accompanied by passion & delight, > > relishing now here & now there -- i.e., craving for sensual pleasure, craving for > > becoming, craving for non-becoming." > > >> -- SN LVI.11 [snip] > With metta, > Howard 23457 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Wed Jul 16, 2003 1:37pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Anicca (Impermanence) Hi Ken, When you said that there is no control, do you mean that one can not make the conditioned permanent, satisfactory, self? Do you mean that one can refrain and control self from unwholesome action in body, speech, and mind? Your comments are appreciated. Peace, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > Howard, [snip] > There is simply no control :-) > > Kind regards, > Ken 23458 From: Date: Wed Jul 16, 2003 11:25am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Anicca (Impermanence)/KenH Hi, Sarah (and Ken, and James) = In a message dated 7/16/03 3:31:42 AM Eastern Daylight Time, sarahdhhk@y... writes: > I particularly appreciated this summary you wrote in a post to James: > > Ken H:“I think any action designed to bring about non-arisen states or > eliminate existing states, involves attachment or aversion. The objective > is to understand arisen states, not to control themâ€?. > > ============================ Yes, this is well put. However, I have a couple comments that go somewhat in the opposite direction: 1) We start where we are, not where we would hope to be. If there were no desire to eliminate suffering, it would never be eliminated. If we had to be free of craving, aversion, and attachment to begin to divest ourselves of these, no one, ever, would attain enlightenment. 2) The understanding of arisen states, particularly seeing the tilakkhana in them, is the primary means to achieve liberation. 3) The Buddha recommended guarding the senses, which is a process of control over reactions, and it requires volitional effort. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 23459 From: Date: Wed Jul 16, 2003 3:51pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Anicca (Impermanence) Hi Nina, My only textual reference is that piti is listed as the proximate cause of concentration and concentration is listed as the proximate cause of panna (understanding). How could it be otherwise? Larry -------------------- Nina: Dear Larry, op 16-07-2003 00:51 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: Dangerous or not, I think there has to be piti in order for there to be insight, just as there has to be sati. N: Of the eight types of kusala citta four are accompanied by panna, four by pleasant feeling, four by indifferent feeling. Thus, two kusala cittas accompanied by panna have pleasant feeling, two have indifferent feeling. Only those with pleasant feeling are accompanied by piti. Very strange if one can only develop insight with pleasant feeling and piti. Do you have a textual reference for this? Nobody can cause the arising of somanassa and piti at will. Nina. L: Who is"nobody"? 23460 From: Date: Wed Jul 16, 2003 4:04pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Anicca (Impermanence) Hi Nina, One more point. Piti (joyful interest) is one of the 7 enlightenment factors (bojjhanga). The others are: sati (mindfulness), invesigation of dhamma, energy, tranquility, concentration, equanimity. "Because they lead to enlightenment, therefore they are called enlightenment factors" (S XLVI, 5). Larry 23461 From: Sarah Date: Wed Jul 16, 2003 11:29pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Anicca (Impermanence)/KenH Hi Howard, Glad to chat with you again -- --- upasaka@a... wrote: H: > ..... However, I have a couple comments that go > somewhat in the opposite direction: > 1) We start where we are, not where we would hope to be. If there > were > no desire to eliminate suffering, it would never be eliminated. If we > had to > be free of craving, aversion, and attachment to begin to divest > ourselves of > these, no one, ever, would attain enlightenment. ..... S: I’m not sure I can add anything helpful to Ken H’s comments, but I’ll try -- a) I agree with the ‘we start where we are.....’. Of course in paramattha terms, this means simply that namas and rupas are as conditioned at this moment. b) I don’t agree that the elimination of suffering depends on desire but that it is eliminated in spite of the deep-rooted desire which has to be thoroughly known and thereby eradicated. (purima tanha or pre-craving which conditions bhava is another point). Remember the sutta about the chicks hatching and so on, with right conditions and regardless of wishing.... c) I’m sure there’s no suggestion by anyone here that we have to be ‘free of craving, aversion, and attachment to begin....’. As you say, if this were so, there’d be no enlightenment. There wouldn’t even be a start on the path. Of course, as you know well, even at the outset there truly is no self to divest of anything. Only an illusion that this is so. ..... H: > 2) The understanding of arisen states, particularly seeing the > tilakkhana in them, is the primary means to achieve liberation. ..... S: a) Agreed with the proviso that understanding has to gradually develop, penetrating the ‘nature’ and characteristics of arisen states deeper and more and more precisely with detachment. b) As discussed, the tilakkhana are only penetrated when the earlier vipassana insights have been realised. ..... H: > 3) The Buddha recommended guarding the senses, which is a process > of > control over reactions, and it requires volitional effort. ..... S: Let me try from another angle;-) It may be apparent to us when there is obvious attachment and even a kind of desperation for a particular result, whether it be in meditation practice, dhamma text reading, or discussion with a teacher (even with K.Sujin;-)), that such kinds of attachment hinder rather than assist the achieving of the desired result of wholesome states and presently arising bhavana (mental development). Furthermore, it may be apparent to us at such times that in spite of the intentions to the contrary, the idea that control, wishing and volitional effort can bring a wholesome result is erroneous and contrary to the development of detachment. Now this doesn’t mean that most of our day shouldn’t be filled with attachments and other defilements as it so obviously is:-). Obviously when we go surfing, mountain hiking or any of these other supposedly wholesome activities, there’s bound to be attachment and a lack of any guarding of the sense-doors much of the time. However, I believe there’s a difference between slowly understanding these presently arrising phenomena on the one hand and having the idea that they are a necessary part of the path to be pursued on the other. To give a simple example: there’s a difference between enjoying a sunset, with hopefully moments of awareness in between the enjoyment, and believing that it is a wholesome activity that will take one along the path. Furthermore, there’s a difference between understanding the conditioned attachment and other objects at this moment which will inevitably and eventually lead to a guarding of the senses and the pursuit of such guarding with an idea that it can be done by a ‘willing’ or ‘controlling’ or a deap-seated belief in self. Our wrong views have to be known and eliminated before more subtle kinds of attachment can be truly understood and eliminated. Just as those more obvious kinds of attachment can perhaps be seen as contrary to the development of insight (but worthy objects of course), so can more subtle kinds, even whilst reading dhamma or following any special practice, be seen too. I think our desire for results and development is so deeply ingrained that the lobha and ditthi (wrong views) trick us all the time. Does this make any more sense? Look f/w to hearing your feedback. Metta, Sarah p.s I appreciated your references and quotes on samvega (sense of urgency)which I understand to refer to wholesome states in these contexts and not to desire or anxiety. The same applies to 'lives ardently', also discussed in the Satipatthana Sutta. You may like to look at a past post of mine on samvega: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/17922 ======= 23462 From: christine_forsyth Date: Thu Jul 17, 2003 0:54am Subject: [dsg] Re: Anicca (Impermanence)/KenH Dear Sarah, Howard, and All, Sarah said: "Furthermore, it may be apparent to us at such times that in spite of the intentions to the contrary, the idea that control, wishing and volitional effort can bring a wholesome result is erroneous and contrary to the development of detachment." CJF: I hope this isn't a silly question... If there is no control, if there is no self who can will or wish the arising of any mindstate - how is it that the Buddha, Ananda, Sariputta, and MahaMoggallana could make aspirations aeons ago to be in the roles in which we know them? Isn't an aspiration a Big Wish? metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: 23463 From: Sarah Date: Thu Jul 17, 2003 1:31am Subject: Re: [dsg] Chanting and transference of merits to petas Hi PC, Nina & All, I had planned to add a tale from the Comy to the Peta Stories (Paramatthadiipanii naama Petavatthu-a.t.takathaa) before going on holiday (with Nina and PC's encouragement) and the sutta about Upali, Sariputta’s brother reminded me. This is my brief summary of the ‘Exposition of the Elder Saripitta’s Mother Peta Story’ A peta who had been Sariputta’s mother in a fairly recent life, was born in miserable circumstances, ‘naked and hideous’ as a result of ‘misconduct in speech’ and abuse to passing recluses and beggars. She managed, as a peta, to approach Sariputta, told him she had been his mother and that now as a peta, she lived in hunger and thirst, feeding on ‘The thrown out, the expectorated, sputum, nose-mucus, phlegm, the fat of those being burnt and the blood of delivered women’, not to mention the ‘pus and blood of cattle’. She begged Sariputa to offer a gift and transfer the merit (make it over - anvaadiaahi) to her so she may be ‘freed from eating pus and blood’. Comy detail note: “Make it over to me (anvaadisaahi me): please give an assigned gift dedicating it in such a way that the donation that has been given will be of benefit to me. Surely then I will be freed from eating pus and blood (app’eva naama mu~nceyya.m pubbalohiabhojanaa): surely I will be freed from this life as a petii eating pus and blood by means of your dedication”. Sariputta consulted other elders and approached King Bimbisara who then prepared a great offering for the Buddha and monks. He handed it over to Sariputta who gave it all on behalf of the peta. The peta showed her appreciation and ‘arose in the devaloka, richly endowed with all she desired’. When asked by Mahamogallana what her beauty and accomplishments and happy rebirth are due to when she was human, she answered “I was the mother of Sariputta”. ***** I think we just have a glimmer of how complex conditions and kamma are. Only the Buddha could understand all the complexities which lead to the present conditions and results. Sariputta was able to see, hear and appreciate her predicament and give the necessary assistance by letting her rejoice and appreciate his great gift. Even so, without the necessary kamma in the past human life, the rebirth in the deva realm and the beauty and accomplishments would not have been possible. In response to PC’s questions below, I find these points difficult to understand even intellectually. However, just as we cannot always appreciate others’ good deeds and such appreciation varies from individual to individual (or citta to citta), so it must be so much harder when desperately hungry and thirsty in the peta realm. If we reflect wisely it may be another condition for samvega (sense of urgency) to see the value in wholesome deeds now while we have the chance. You also ask about chanting and warding off evil forces. As we know, in truth the greatest protection is in the arising of wholesome states regardless of what vipaka comes our way. Whilst chanting, I understand it is the wise reflection and understanding of the Triple Gem as contained in the Paritta (protections) that leads to the guarding of the doorways from unwholesome elements and influences. As I mentioned before, I believe these other posts may be useful and relevant: Kom: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/5313 Num: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/10722 Nina: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/22402 PC, please let us know what you think and how your classes are going. I'll be glad to hear any other comments as I've never found these stories easy to appreciate. Metta, Sarah ======= --- bodhi dhamma wrote: > Hi Bros. and Sis. in the dhamma, > > I understand that when we chant and do transference of merits to petas, > not all petas can receive our merits. Is it because different groups of > them have different mental faculties and different cittas/cetasikas ? > Next, it is said that when one chants attentively, and fully understand > the content of the Bojjhanga Sutras, Ratana sutra etc.one will be > 'protected' against the evil forces. calamities....etc. How chanting,in > these cases can generate powerful wholesome cittas to counter-act the > unwholesome thoughts prevailing in the mind of the evil beings > ?Alternatively,is it because these evil beings receive(or thought > arising from ) the wholesome merits and thus nulilfy their akusala > cittas ? > > I hope to gather some Abhidhammic aspects of the above,for my > forthcoming class discussion. 23464 From: Sarah Date: Thu Jul 17, 2003 2:26am Subject: Not such a silly question...... Hi Christine, Your questions are never silly and this is a very good one;-) --- christine_forsyth wrote: > > CJF: I hope this isn't a silly question... If there is no control, > if there is no self who can will or wish the arising of any > mindstate - how is it that the Buddha, Ananda, Sariputta, and > MahaMoggallana could make aspirations aeons ago to be in the roles in > which we know them? Isn't an aspiration a Big Wish? ..... Usually our wishes are motivated by desire, but of course in these cases they are very highly refined wholesome aspirations dependent on great wisdom;-) We also know that such an aspiration (or Big Wish) cannot on its own bring about the desired result, but must be supported by the development of other very highly refined wholesome states and all the right supporting conditions, none of which is any idea of self being able to control the result;-)A Big Wish brought about by unimaginable detachment rather than attachment...not easy to comprehend, I think. Reading about the Bodhisatta’s life as Sumedha when he made his undertaking before Dipankara Buddha, we read read about the great understanding and detachment already developed, how he had realised all the various attainments and how the Wish or Act of Merit only succeeds for one such as Sumedha. Even then, only after a hundred thousand eons and four incalculables would he become a Buddha. So we see that they are still conditioned mind-states which bring particular results -- still no self, no control and no unwholesome wishing and effort that bring any wholesome results (except indirectly). Not sure if this helps - others may also have ideas. I’d be happy to come back with anything further on Sumedha. I think it also came up in ‘Perfections’ and you might like to give us the link or references if it helps. I'm rushing a bit here. Hope to hear your further reflections. Metta, Sarah ======== 23465 From: rjkjp1 Date: Thu Jul 17, 2003 2:28am Subject: [dsg] Re: Anicca (Impermanence)/KenH --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" < > > Sarah said: "Furthermore, it may be apparent to us at such times that > in spite of the > intentions to the contrary, the idea that control, wishing and > volitional > effort can bring a wholesome result is erroneous and contrary to the > development of detachment." _____ > CJF: I hope this isn't a silly question... If there is no control, > if there is no self who can will or wish the arising of any > mindstate - how is it that the Buddha, Ananda, Sariputta, and > MahaMoggallana could make aspirations aeons ago to be in the roles in > which we know them? Isn't an aspiration a Big Wish? > ____________ Dear Christine, This is a good question. I used to think that desire for such lofty goals as nibbana was something benign or even to be encouraged. However we need to be scrutinize very carefully the moments when such thoughts arise to learn whether there is genuine aspiration (aditthana parami). I quote from Nina's book about the parami: http://www.abhidhamma.org/perfections%20of% 20enlightenment.htm#Chapter%201 ""The Bodhisatta developed the perfection of determination, aditthãna parami. He was unshakable in his resolution to develop all the perfections until he would attain Buddhahood. We too have to be determined to develop the perfections life after life.<..> Are we determined to continue to develop right understanding until we have reached the goal?"enquote I know when I first learned about nibbana I had great desire for it. But it was without any understanding of the degree of giving up that it involved. I thought 10 years would be a good time-frame! So much conceit. But the true disciples of the Buddha heaped up merit over aeons. They didn't become discouraged by obstacles and indeed must have seen them as opportunities for patience or giving or adhitthana or... ""For when the Great Man, straining and striving for the fulfilment of the requisites of enlightenment, encounters troubles difficult to endure, depriving him of happiness and his means of support, or when he encounters injuries imposed by beings and formations- difficult to overcome, violent, sapping the vitality— then, since he has surrendered himself to the Buddhas, he reflects: I have relinquished my very self to the Buddhas. Whatever comes, let it come. For this reason he does not waver, does not quake, does not undergo the least vacillation, but remains absolutely unshaken in his determination to undertake the good."" Nina writes: "Whatever comes, let it come. No matter what will happen in our life, let us be determined to continue to develop right understanding of the present object.""endquote Yes, it is fine to aspire for exalted states but we have to be sincere so that we know what it takes. We then begin to relish the moment - no matter if against our worldly wishes - because only by understanding and letting go of self view is progress possible: ""The commentary to the Cariyapitaka 1) states that the Bodhisatta considers the following: 'Mere dhammas alone exist, devoid of self or of anything pertaining to a self. They arise and pass away in accordance with their conditions. They do not come from anywhere, they do not go anywhere, they are not established anywhere. There is no agency in anything whatsoever. In this way a Bodhisatta becomes fixed in his destiny, bound for enlightenment, irreversible.'""endquote robertk 23466 From: bodhi2500 Date: Thu Jul 17, 2003 2:41am Subject: [dsg] Re: Anicca (Impermanence)/KenH Hi Sarah --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > S: I'm not sure I can add anything helpful to Ken H's comments, but I'll > try -- > > a) I agree with the `we start where we are.....'. Of course in paramattha > terms, this means simply that namas and rupas are as conditioned at this > moment. > > b) I don't agree that the elimination of suffering depends on desire but > that it is eliminated in spite of the deep-rooted desire which has to be > thoroughly known and thereby eradicated. (purima tanha or pre- craving > which conditions bhava is another point). > > Remember the sutta about the chicks hatching and so on, with right > conditions and regardless of wishing.... > Metta, > > Sarah Hi Sarah In paramattha terms chanda cetasika in Right effort,is often translated as desire/wish to do. With this understanding, can it not be said that desire/chanda is a factor of the path that leads to the cessation of dukkha? And I would think without desire/chanda of right effort there can be no development of the path? But this desire must arise with the right conditions, which would be different to wishing/desire rooted in lobha. Kindred saying(V,Mahavagga,XLV,kindred sayings on the way,ChapterIV,II,restrain of passion) just as, monks the dawn is the forerunner,the harbringer of the arising sun,so possession of desire(chanda) is the forerunner, the harbinger of the arising of the 8 Fold Noble path. Of a monk who is possessed of desire, it may be expected that he will cultivate the Noble 8 Fold Path. Steve. 23467 From: buddhatrue Date: Thu Jul 17, 2003 2:58am Subject: Re: Not such a silly question...... --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > Hi Christine, > > Your questions are never silly and this is a very good one;-) > > --- christine_forsyth wrote: > > > CJF: I hope this isn't a silly question... If there is no control, > > if there is no self who can will or wish the arising of any > > mindstate - how is it that the Buddha, Ananda, Sariputta, and > > MahaMoggallana could make aspirations aeons ago to be in the roles in > > which we know them? Isn't an aspiration a Big Wish? > ..... > Usually our wishes are motivated by desire, but of course in these cases > they are very highly refined wholesome aspirations dependent on great > wisdom;-) Hi Sarah, I don't find this explanation adequate. An aspiration is a desire, regardless of the number of adjectives you attach to it. From dictionary.com: aspiration n 1: a will to succeed 2: a cherished desire; Could you please explain what the Buddha had prior to enlightenment, that drove him to achieve enlightenment, and do so without using any words that relate to desire or control? Metta, James 23468 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Thu Jul 17, 2003 6:21am Subject: Re: Anicca (Impermanence)/KenH Hi Robert K, Sarah and all, The following discourse might be of some interest to you. Anguttara Nikaya III.81 (ii) Gadrabha Sutta The Donkey Translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu. For free distribution only. --------------------------------------------------------------------- ----------- "Monks, it is just as if a donkey were following right after a herd of cattle, saying, "I too am a cow! I too am a cow!" Its color is not that of a cow, its voice is not that of a cow, its hoof is not that of a cow, and yet it still keeps following right after the herd of cattle, saying, "I too am a cow! I too am a cow!" In the same way, there is the case where a certain monk follows right after the community of monks, saying, "I too am a monk! I too am a monk!" He doesn't have the other monks' desire for undertaking the training in heightened virtue, doesn't have their desire for undertaking the training in heightened mind (concentration), doesn't have their desire for undertaking the training in heightened discernment, and yet he still keeps following right after the community of monks, saying, "I too am a monk! I too am a monk!" "So you should train yourselves: 'Strong will be our desire for undertaking the training in heightened virtue; strong will be our desire for undertaking the training in heightened mind (concentration); strong will be our desire for undertaking the training in heightened discernment.' That is how you should train yourselves." Your comments are appreciated. Peace, Victor 23469 From: m. nease Date: Thu Jul 17, 2003 6:22am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Anicca (Impermanence)/KenH Hi Steve (and Sarah), Hope you'll excuse my butting in-- ----- Original Message ----- From: bodhi2500 To: Sent: Thursday, July 17, 2003 2:41 AM Subject: [dsg] Re: Anicca (Impermanence)/KenH > Hi Sarah > In paramattha terms chanda cetasika in Right effort,is often > translated as desire/wish to do. With this understanding, can it not > be said that desire/chanda is a factor of the path that leads to the > cessation of dukkha? And I would think without desire/chanda of right > effort there can be no development of the path? But this desire must > arise with the right conditions, which would be different to > wishing/desire rooted in lobha. > > Kindred saying(V,Mahavagga,XLV,kindred sayings on the > way,ChapterIV,II,restrain of passion) > > just as, monks the dawn is the forerunner,the harbringer of the > arising sun,so possession of desire(chanda) is the forerunner, the > harbinger of the arising of the 8 Fold Noble path. Of a monk who is > possessed of desire, it may be expected that he will cultivate the > Noble 8 Fold Path. Thanks for the great quote. I've always found chanda interesting and your message led me to look into it a little more. I found this in CMA, Bhikkhu Bodhi's Guide to the Occasionals [Occasional Mental Factors]: "Desire (Chanda): Chanda here means desire to act (kattu-kaamataa) that is, to perform an action or achieve a result. This kind of desire must be distinguished from desire in the reprehensible sense, that is from lobha, greeed and raaga, lust. Whereas the latter terms are invariably wholesome, chanda is an ethically variable factor which, when conjoined with wholesome concomitants, can function as the virtuous desire to achieve a worthy goal. The characteristic of chanda is to act, its function is searching for an object, its manifestation is need for an object, and that same object is its proximate cause. It should be regarded as the stretching forth of the mind' s hand towards the object." Assuming BB to be correct, since chanda is 'ethically variable' (can be wholesome or unwholesome), it seems to me that it must be unwholesome when its object is, for example, pleasant feeling or relief from unpleasant feeling (as each of these would be attachment to vedanaa which is unsatisfactory, impermanent and not-self), or when attended by self-view. It also seems to me that chanda not associated with desire for certain feelings or self-view is very rare (certainly for me). If so, it's important, I think, to carefully distinguish between wholesome chanda, unwholesome chanda and and attachment (especially with self-view)--difficult too, I think. mike 23470 From: Date: Thu Jul 17, 2003 2:24am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Anicca (Impermanence)/KenH Hi, Sarah - In a message dated 7/17/03 2:30:53 AM Eastern Daylight Time, sarahdhhk@y... writes: > > Hi Howard, > > Glad to chat with you again -- > > --- upasaka@a... wrote: > > H: > ..... However, I have a couple comments that go > >somewhat in the opposite direction: > > 1) We start where we are, not where we would hope to be. If there > >were > >no desire to eliminate suffering, it would never be eliminated. If we > >had to > >be free of craving, aversion, and attachment to begin to divest > >ourselves of > >these, no one, ever, would attain enlightenment. > ..... > S: I’m not sure I can add anything helpful to Ken H’s comments, but I’ll > try -- > > a) I agree with the ‘we start where we are.....’. Of course in paramattha > terms, this means simply that namas and rupas are as conditioned at this > moment. > ------------------------------------------------------ Howard: My point was that we begin to "search for the exit" because we are dissatisfied with our dissatisfaction. The prisoner who thinks the accomodations, food,and company are just fine, won't look for the exit. In fact,he won't even walk through an open cell door. The path is a bootstrap operation. To add yet one more metaphor, we must use what is available in the pit to pull ourselves out of the pit. ------------------------------------------------------ > > b) I don’t agree that the elimination of suffering depends on desire but > that it is eliminated in spite of the deep-rooted desire which has to be > thoroughly known and thereby eradicated. (purima tanha or pre-craving > which conditions bhava is another point). > > Remember the sutta about the chicks hatching and so on, with right > conditions and regardless of wishing.... > ------------------------------------------------ Howard: But the chicks must peck at that shell. The Buddha began his quest when he realized that the of a worldling is unsatisfactory. In particular, *he* was dissatisfied and went on his quest to *escape* dukkha. He was motivated by desire. ------------------------------------------------ > > c) I’m sure there’s no suggestion by anyone here that we have to be ‘free > of craving, aversion, and attachment to begin....’. As you say, if this > were so, there’d be no enlightenment. There wouldn’t even be a start on > the path. Of course, as you know well, even at the outset there truly is > no self to divest of anything. Only an illusion that this is so. > ..... > H: > 2) The understanding of arisen states, particularly seeing the > > >tilakkhana in them, is the primary means to achieve liberation. > ..... > S: a) Agreed with the proviso that understanding has to gradually > develop, penetrating the ‘nature’ and characteristics of arisen states > deeper and more and more precisely with detachment. > > b) As discussed, the tilakkhana are only penetrated when the earlier > vipassana insights have been realised. > ..... > H: > 3) The Buddha recommended guarding the senses, which is a > process > >of > >control over reactions, and it requires volitional effort. > ..... > S: Let me try from another angle;-) > > It may be apparent to us when there is obvious attachment and even a kind > of desperation for a particular result, whether it be in meditation > practice, dhamma text reading, or discussion with a teacher (even with > K.Sujin;-)), that such kinds of attachment hinder rather than assist the > achieving of the desired result of wholesome states and presently arising > bhavana (mental development). > > Furthermore, it may be apparent to us at such times that in spite of the > intentions to the contrary, the idea that control, wishing and volitional > effort can bring a wholesome result is erroneous and contrary to the > development of detachment. > --------------------------------------------------- Howard: Well, I think that the Buddha's teachings on guarding the senses and on right effort do advocate the use of volitional action and the exercise of control (or, better, influence). ----------------------------------------------------- > > Now this doesn’t mean that most of our day shouldn’t be filled with > attachments and other defilements as it so obviously is:-). Obviously when > we go surfing, mountain hiking or any of these other supposedly wholesome > activities, there’s bound to be attachment and a lack of any guarding of > the sense-doors much of the time. > > However, I believe there’s a difference between slowly understanding these > presently arrising phenomena on the one hand and having the idea that they > are a necessary part of the path to be pursued on the other. To give a > simple example: there’s a difference between enjoying a sunset, with > hopefully moments of awareness in between the enjoyment, and believing > that it is a wholesome activity that will take one along the path. > > Furthermore, there’s a difference between understanding the conditioned > attachment and other objects at this moment which will inevitably and > eventually lead to a guarding of the senses and the pursuit of such > guarding with an idea that it can be done by a ‘willing’ or ‘controlling’ > or a deap-seated belief in self. > > Our wrong views have to be known and eliminated before more subtle kinds > of attachment can be truly understood and eliminated. Just as those more > obvious kinds of attachment can perhaps be seen as contrary to the > development of insight (but worthy objects of course), so can more subtle > kinds, even whilst reading dhamma or following any special practice, be > seen too. > > I think our desire for results and development is so deeply ingrained that > the lobha and ditthi (wrong views) trick us all the time. > ------------------------------------------------------ Howard: If our desire for results fixates us on the goal rather than directing us to the conditions needed to achieve that goal, such goal-orientation is, of course, harmful. But there is a goal, and there needs to be. If there were no goal, there would be no walking of the path to the goal. ------------------------------------------------------ > > Does this make any more sense? Look f/w to hearing your feedback. > > Metta, > > Sarah > > p.s I appreciated your references and quotes on samvega (sense of > urgency)which I understand to refer to wholesome states in these contexts > and not to desire or anxiety. The same applies to 'lives ardently', also > discussed in the Satipatthana Sutta. > ------------------------------------------------------ Howard: Yeah, yeah, Sarah. It's all "states". ;-)) But intention plays a role in the arising these states. ----------------------------------------------------- > > You may like to look at a past post of mine on samvega: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/17922 > ======= > ============================== Thank you for your reply, Sarah. It's always a pleasure chatting with you. (Sorry to disagree so often! ;-) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 23471 From: Date: Thu Jul 17, 2003 3:00am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Anicca (Impermanence)/KenH Hi, Christine - In a message dated 7/17/03 3:55:32 AM Eastern Daylight Time, cforsyth@v... writes: > Dear Sarah, Howard, and All, > > Sarah said: "Furthermore, it may be apparent to us at such times that > in spite of the > intentions to the contrary, the idea that control, wishing and > volitional > effort can bring a wholesome result is erroneous and contrary to the > development of detachment." > > CJF: I hope this isn't a silly question... If there is no control, > if there is no self who can will or wish the arising of any > mindstate - how is it that the Buddha, Ananda, Sariputta, and > MahaMoggallana could make aspirations aeons ago to be in the roles in > which we know them? Isn't an aspiration a Big Wish? > > metta and peace, > Christine > ========================== Since you have included me among the addressees, I will reply. I think your question is a good one. And, yes, I think that an aspiration is a Big Wish. The Bodhisatta and the others certainly expressed strong intentions in making their vows. And those intentions, along with other critical conditions, eventually led to their fruition. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 23472 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Thu Jul 17, 2003 7:12am Subject: [dsg] Re: Anicca (Impermanence)/KenH Hi Howard and all, I think we share the same sentiment that without desire, motivation, aspiration to achieve/attain a goal, one would never get there. Here is a discourse that I posted some time ago to Azita. Samyutta Nikaya LI.15 Brahmana Sutta To Unnabha the Brahman http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn51-015.html Peace, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Christine - > [snip] > Since you have included me among the addressees, I will reply. I think > your question is a good one. And, yes, I think that an aspiration is a Big > Wish. The Bodhisatta and the others certainly expressed strong intentions in > making their vows. And those intentions, along with other critical conditions, > eventually led to their fruition. > > With metta, > Howard 23473 From: Date: Thu Jul 17, 2003 3:13am Subject: Typo Correction Re: [dsg] Re: Anicca (Impermanence)/KenH In a message dated 7/17/03 9:25:54 AM Eastern Daylight Time, upasaka@a... writes: > But the chicks must peck at that shell. The Buddha began his quest > when he realized that the of a worldling is unsatisfactory. In particular, > *he* > was dissatisfied and went on his quest to *escape* dukkha. He was motivated > by > desire. > ============================ Sorry. "when he realized that the of a worldling ..." should have been "when he realized that the life of a worldling ..." With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 23474 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Thu Jul 17, 2003 7:21am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Anicca (Impermanence)--Giving To vs. Giving Up Mike Thanks, it's nice to be back. And thanks for the very apt quotes you have provided here (as usual). I agree that renunciation/the giving up of desire/nekkhama is not synonymous with dana/giving/caaga, but I seem to remember there may be circumstances in which renunciation is also an aspect of giving. I think the fact of the difference is clearly evident in the following passage from the gradual instruction given by the Buddha (from the entry 'ánupubbí-kathá' in Nyanatiloka's 'Buddhist Dictionary'): "Then the Blessed One gave him a gradual instruction - that is to say, he spoke on liberality ('giving', dána), on moral conduct (síla) and on the heaven (sagga); he explained the peril, the vanity and the depravity of sensual pleasures, and the advantage of renunciation. When the Blessed One perceived that the listener's mind was prepared, pliant, free from obstacles, elevated and lucid; then he explained to him that exalted teaching particular to the Buddhas (buddhánam sámukkamsiká desaná), that is: suffering, its cause, its ceasing, and the path." Jon --- "m. nease" wrote: > Hi Ken, ... > This is also different from renunciation in order to gain > something, usually > tranquility accompanied by pleasant or neutral feeling I think, > motivated by > desire for or attachment to pleasant or neutral feeling (as opposed > to > aversion to unpleasant feeling e.g.). > > "And even neutral feeling which as peaceful > the Lord of Wisdom has proclaimed, > if, in attachment, he should cling to it, > he will not be free from the round of ill." > > Samyutta Nikaya XXXVI.3 > Pahana Sutta > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn36-003.html > > "It is the happiness and gladness arising dependent on feelings > that is the > gratification in feelings. Feelings are impermanent, (liable to > bring) pain, > and are subject to change; this is the danger in feelings. The > removal and > the giving up of the desire and lust for feelings is the escape > from > feelings. > > Samyutta Nikaya XXXVI.15 > Santaka Sutta > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn36-015.html > > As I understand it, the renunciation (caaga?) that is the wholesome > factor > you refer to above always implies giving TO--not just giving > up--especially > not just 'giving up' something in order to get something else. ... > mike > > p.s. Welcome back, Jon and Sarah! 23475 From: Date: Thu Jul 17, 2003 3:23am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Anicca (Impermanence)/KenH Hi, Victor - In a message dated 7/17/03 10:14:05 AM Eastern Daylight Time, yu_zhonghao@y... writes: > > Hi Howard and all, > > I think we share the same sentiment that without desire, motivation, > aspiration to achieve/attain a goal, one would never get there. ------------------------------------------------ Howard: Indeed! We actually agree on quite a lot, Victor. I find it a happy turn of events that our agreements seem to be making it possible for us to find no unpleasantness in the fact that we disagree on some matters also. Good friends in the Dhamma are of enormous value! ------------------------------------------------ > > Here is a discourse that I posted some time ago to Azita. > > Samyutta Nikaya LI.15 > Brahmana Sutta > To Unnabha the Brahman > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn51-015.html > ---------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Yes, this is a perfect sutta to make the point. Thank you. ---------------------------------------------------------- > > Peace, > Victor > ============================ With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 23476 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Thu Jul 17, 2003 7:27am Subject: Re: Concepts and Characteristics Re: [dsg] Vism XIV, 3 Steve Thanks very much for this, and my apologies for not being able to reply while I was away. I agree with the statement you give below. The difficulty I have in reading the passage, however, is that in saying: "In addition to the rupa-dhamma which originates, subsists (decay) and perishes, there are no rupa-dhammas answering to the names: rupassa jati, rupassa jarata and rupassa aniccata." it seems to be suggesting that the characteristics are themselves 'dhammas', whereas in saying: "And it is in order to avoid this problem of infinite regress that the characteristics are not recognized as entities distinct from, and as real as, the dhammas which they characterize." it seems to be suggesting they are not. I'm sure Nina's book 'Cetasikas' will have something on this general area, and I shall check it out when I have time. Jon --- bodhi2500 wrote: > Hi Jon ... > My understanding of the below passage is; that because the > characteristics of arising,decay and aniccata are not paramattha > Dhammas, then those characteristics have no characteristics of > arising,decay and aniccata. > > Steve 23477 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Thu Jul 17, 2003 7:28am Subject: [dsg] Re: Anicca (Impermanence)/KenH Hi Mike and Steve, I appreciate your messages. To add a comment: Desire for the five aggregates/sensual desire is different from the desire, motivation, aspiration for the wholesome, for realizing the cessation of dukkha. Without the desire, motivation, and aspiration to develop wholesome qualities, these qualities would not be developed. Without the desire, motivation, and aspiration to realize the cessation of dukkha, the noble eightfold path would not be taken. Peace, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "m. nease" wrote: > Hi Steve (and Sarah), > > Hope you'll excuse my butting in-- > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: bodhi2500 > To: > Sent: Thursday, July 17, 2003 2:41 AM > Subject: [dsg] Re: Anicca (Impermanence)/KenH > > > Hi Sarah > > In paramattha terms chanda cetasika in Right effort,is often > > translated as desire/wish to do. With this understanding, can it not > > be said that desire/chanda is a factor of the path that leads to the > > cessation of dukkha? And I would think without desire/chanda of right > > effort there can be no development of the path? But this desire must > > arise with the right conditions, which would be different to > > wishing/desire rooted in lobha. > > > > Kindred saying(V,Mahavagga,XLV,kindred sayings on the > > way,ChapterIV,II,restrain of passion) > > > > just as, monks the dawn is the forerunner,the harbringer of the > > arising sun,so possession of desire(chanda) is the forerunner, the > > harbinger of the arising of the 8 Fold Noble path. Of a monk who is > > possessed of desire, it may be expected that he will cultivate the > > Noble 8 Fold Path. > > Thanks for the great quote. I've always found chanda interesting and your > message led me to look into it a little more. I found this in CMA, Bhikkhu > Bodhi's Guide to the Occasionals [Occasional Mental Factors]: > > "Desire (Chanda): Chanda here means desire to act (kattu- kaamataa) that is, > to perform an action or achieve a result. This kind of desire must be > distinguished from desire in the reprehensible sense, that is from lobha, > greeed and raaga, lust. Whereas the latter terms are invariably wholesome, > chanda is an ethically variable factor which, when conjoined with wholesome > concomitants, can function as the virtuous desire to achieve a worthy goal. > The characteristic of chanda is to act, its function is searching for an > object, its manifestation is need for an object, and that same object is its > proximate cause. It should be regarded as the stretching forth of the mind' > s hand towards the object." > > Assuming BB to be correct, since chanda is 'ethically variable' (can be > wholesome or unwholesome), it seems to me that it must be unwholesome when > its object is, for example, pleasant feeling or relief from unpleasant > feeling (as each of these would be attachment to vedanaa which is > unsatisfactory, impermanent and not-self), or when attended by self-view. > It also seems to me that chanda not associated with desire for certain > feelings or self-view is very rare (certainly for me). If so, it's > important, I think, to carefully distinguish between wholesome chanda, > unwholesome chanda and and attachment (especially with self-view)-- difficult > too, I think. > > mike 23478 From: phamdluan2000 Date: Thu Jul 17, 2003 8:13am Subject: [dsg] Re: Anicca (Impermanence)/KenH Dear Christine, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" wrote: CJF: I hope this isn't a silly question... If there is no control, if there is no self who can will or wish the arising of any mindstate - how is it that the Buddha, Ananda, Sariputta, and MahaMoggallana could make aspirations aeons ago to be in the roles in which we know them? Isn't an aspiration a Big Wish? KKT: I think the problem is very simple. As long as ego persists (ie. the feeling of I, me, mine, myself or the sense of separate individuality) there will be will, desire, aspiration. Because ego, will, desire are synonymous. No-will, no-desire are << effective >> only when there is no more ego. But there is no harm with ego. Think of this: << using a thorn to remove a thorn >> I think there are two levels in the Buddha's teachings: in the first level, ego is considered a reality. Therefore will, desire, aspiration, effort are all << real >> Only in the second level that one begins to see the illusory characteristic of the ego. Peace, KKT 23479 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Jul 17, 2003 11:08am Subject: Perfections, Ch 11, Equanimity, no 9 Perfections, Ch 11, Equanimity, no 9 Since the Bodhisatta was averse from favours and praise that come with monkhood, he did not go forth. However, he was a monk at heart and developed kusala so that others would in truth respect him, even though he had not gone forth. We read further on: He had the highest degree of contentment with little, he delighted in tranquillity, he had no concern for his body and his life, because his aim was equanimity. He practised the abandonment of defilements to the highest degree, he endured the ugly deeds from others. He had the firm determination to diminish the defilements which were opposed to the requisites of enlightenment by evenmindedness in all respects. This caused him to be without excess, to be impartial towards others who supported him and to those who did not. He was like an arahat and hence he did not cling to the vicissitudes of life. He reached the peak of the perfection of equanimity, and as such it is pre-eminently a perfection leading to the awakening of a Buddha (Buddha påramí). By the perfection of equanimity one can have impartiality towards all beings and this is most difficult to practise. The ten perfections are: generosity, dåna, morality, síla, renunciation, nekkhamma, wisdom, paññå, energy, viriya patience, khanti truthfulness, sacca, determination, aditthåna, loving-kindness, mettå, equanimity, upekkhå. We should not neglect anyone of these ten perfections, we need them all. We need sincerity in the abandonment of defilements and that is the perfection of truthfulness. We should remember to think of other people¹s wrongs with loving-kindness. We also need the perfection of determination, the firm, unshakable determination to practise all kinds of kusala in order to reach the goal. We may have sincerity in our wish to abandon defilements, but at times we lack determination, we are not firm enough in our determination to abandon defilements. We need the perfection of determination for being sincere in our practice to eradicate defilements. We need the perfection of patience, that is, endurance. We need to develop all the perfections and this is the only way to have wise attention, to develop paññå. (end of Ch 11) 23480 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Jul 17, 2003 11:08am Subject: FW: Subcommentary Mahaaraahulovaadasutta ---------- Van: nina van gorkom Datum: Tue, 15 Jul 2003 15:35:16 +0200 Aan: Pali yahoo Onderwerp: Subcommentary Mahaaraahulovaadasutta Subcommentary Mahaaraahulovaadasutta Subcommentary (of Dhammapaala): Commentary passage relevant to the Subcommentary: idaanissa taadibhaavalakkha.na.m aacikkhanto pathaviisamantiaadimaaha. Now he said, when explaining the characteristic of such nature (of the highest qualification), ³like the earth² and so on. i.t.thaani.t.thesu hi arajjanto adussanto taadii naama hoti. not being attached nor having aversion with regard to the desirable and the undesirable is ³suchness². words in subcommentary: ni.t.thita: completed anuyu~njati: engage in, apply aacikkhati: to explain aacikkhana: anouncing, explanation pavatti (f): procedure, existence gahetva: from ga.nhati: seize, take hold of. parigga.nhati: take possession of, comprehend, examine. causative: pariggaheti. okaasa (m): , open space, appearance, opportunity Text Subcommentary: 119. taadibhaavo naama ni.t.thitakiccassa hoti, aya~nca vipassana.m anuyu~njati, The nature of ³suchness² refers to the task that has been completed, and he applies himself to insight, atha kimattha.m taadibhaavataa vuttaati? and then, in which sense was the nature of suchness spoken of? pathaviisamataadilakkha.naacikkha.naahi vipassanaaya sukhappavattiattha.m. The explanation of the characteristic of (development) like the earth and so on has the meaning of a happy course of insight. tenaaha ``i.t.thaani.t.thesuu''tiaadi. Therefore he says, ³with regard to the desirable and the undesirable² and so on. gahetvaati kusalappavattiyaa okaasadaanavasena pariggahetvaa. As to the words, after he has mastered them, this means, after he has thoroughly comprehended them, because of the opportunity that was given for a skilful course of action. English: The nature of ³suchness² refers to the task that has been completed, and he applies himself to insight; and then, in which sense was the nature of suchness spoken of? The explanation of the characteristic of (development) like the earth and so on has the meaning of a happy course of insight. Therefore he says, ³with regard to the desirable and the undesirable² and so on. As to the words, after he has mastered them, this means, after he has thoroughly comprehended them, because of the opportunity that was given for a skilful course of action. Nina. 23481 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Jul 17, 2003 11:08am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: renunciation Dear Mike and Ken, op 16-07-2003 14:50 schreef m. nease op mlnease@z...: > This has the ring of 'pabbajjaa' to me which, as you know, means 'going > forth' (to be a bhikkhu) but also has the meaning of 'renunciation'. Going > forth seems to me to partake of siila for sure (taking precepts) and maybe > bhaavanaa (as a part of the monastic routine?) but not necessarily of daana? > >> It seems to me that the above definition could apply to >> any consciousness that has kusala [or right] thought. > > It does seem to me that it (nekkhamma) might be conditioned by right > thought. A right thought might be one of the three but not the other two, I > think (of daana, siila and bhaavanaa). N: Here is a passage from Perfections by A. Sujin: And further on: Nina. 23482 From: kenhowardau Date: Thu Jul 17, 2003 2:41pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Anicca (Impermanence)/KenH Hi Sarah, Welcome back and thanks for the encouraging words. I'm having one of those mental blocks that I've told you about before, so don't expect any 'pithy' closing lines. :-) The surf at Noosa is particularly good at the moment; maybe that's why I don't have energy for anything else -- maybe age is catching up with me?! You wrote to James: > We all know this is a discussion group and we're just > giving comments according to our present understanding > which can be questioned and challenged at any time. > The efficacy of Dhamma discussion, is a topic we don't seem to discuss much. (Perhaps we're a little self- conscious.) There are some lines in the suttas that give friendship pride of place. They say it is the whole of the holy life (or was it 'the whole of the Dhamma?'). It will be good if you (or anyone), can comment on that some time. (No pressure. :-) ) Kind regards, Ken H 23483 From: christine_forsyth Date: Thu Jul 17, 2003 7:10pm Subject: Kalyana-mitta - Admirable Friends was( Anicca (Impermanence)/KenH) Hello KenH, Sarah and All, I felt I wanted to write a little on this topic as I know from experience the absolute necessity of having supportive Dhamma friends to encourage one to stick with Buddhism for the long haul. (I am taking it that you mean Kalyana-mitta, Admirable Friends). Mostly, ordinary friendship means associating with those to whom one is attracted, whose personality one likes and finds pleasant, who share the same interests and activities, with whom one can laugh. Just this much, I think, could merely be an expression of lobha or raga. But a Noble Friend, a Kalyana-mitta, is one who one knows because of the Dhamma; one who will be able to offer guidance and instruction and also be able to offer criticism where appropriate - as well as friendship and encouragement. A Noble Friend is someone in whom you can place trust, that they care about your spiritual well-being. Initially, one of the most difficult obstacles in developing a spiritual life is isolation. I can well remember how disheartened I felt a few years back when I didn't have face-to-face, voice-to-voice contact with anyone interested in the Buddha's Teachings as found in the Tipitaka. It was first through finding Dhamma-List, and then with RobK's encouragement, posting on DhammaStudyGroup, that I found the support of true kalyana- mittas. I am almost sure that without the friendship of those whom I have met in Australia, Hong Kong, Thailand and Sri Lanka through this group, I would have fallen away from The Teachings. It hasn't always been smooth sailing, I can remember the occasional misunderstanding and disagreements, but always the influence of the Dhamma prevailed and things were respectfully sorted out. This beautiful Sutta is a translation by John D. Ireland before, 'On Friendship' SN II.3 Hiri Sutta: "One who, overstepping and despising a sense of shame, says, 'I am your friend,' but does not take upon himself any tasks he is capable of doing, is to be recognized as no friend. One who speaks amiably to his companions, but whose actions do not conform to it, him the wise know for certain as a talker not a doer. He is no friend who, anticipating conflict, is always alert in looking out for weaknesses But he on whom one can rely, like a child sleeping on its mother's breast, is truly a friend who cannot be parted from one by others. One who bears the human burden of responsibility, with it fruits and blessings in mind, he cultivates a cause of joy and happiness worthy of praise. Having tasted the flavor of solitude and peace one is free from fear and wrong-doings imbibing the rapture of Dhamma." -- vv. 253-257 Some quotes: Bhikkhu Bodhi 'Association with the wise' "The Mahamangala Sutta, the Great Discourse on Blessings, is one of the most popular Buddhist suttas, included in all the standard repertories of Pali devotional chants. The sutta begins when a deity of stunning beauty, having descended to earth in the stillness of the night, approaches the Blessed One in the Jeta Grove and asks about the way to the highest blessings. In the very first stanza of his reply the Buddha states that the highest blessing comes from avoiding fools and associating with the wise (asevana ca balanam, panditanan ca sevana). Since the rest of the sutta goes on to sketch all the different aspects of human felicity, both mundane and spiritual, the assignment of association with the wise to the opening stanza serves to emphasize a key point: that progress along the path of the Dhamma hinges on making the right choices in our friendships." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/news/essay26.html Admirable Friendship (sutta quotes): the definition a cause for development of admirable qualities choose your companions with care as a prerequisite for awakening the whole of the holy life the benefits of admirable friendship qualities of a dhamma teacher keeping company with the wise never with an evil companion http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/kalyanamittata.html Upaddha Sutta 'Half'(of the Holy Life) As he was seated to one side, Ven. Ananda said to the Blessed One, "This is half of the holy life, Lord: being a friend with admirable people, a companion with admirable people, a colleague with admirable people." "Don't say that, Ananda. Don't say that. Being a friend with admirable people, a companion with admirable people, a colleague with admirable people is actually the whole of the holy life. When a monk is a friend with admirable people, a companion with admirable people, a colleague with admirable people, it is to be expected of him that he will develop the noble eightfold path, and make much of it. . . . And through this line of reasoning one may know how being a friend with such people is actually the whole of the holy life: It is in dependence on me as an admirable friend that beings subject to birth have gained release from birth, that beings subject to aging have gained release from aging, that beings subject to death have gained release from death, that beings subject to sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress & despair have gained release from sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress & despair." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn45-002.html And a few more quotes from the Scriptures: Keeping company with the wise: It's good to see Noble Ones. Happy their company always. Through not seeing fools constantly, constantly one would be happy. For, living with a fool, one grieves a long time. Painful is communion with fools, as with an enemy always. Happy is communion with the enlightened, as with a gathering of kin. So: the enlightened man - discerning, learned, enduring, dutiful, noble, intelligent, a man of integrity: You should follow him - follow one of this sort; -- as the moon, the path of the zodiac stars. Dhp 206 Never with an evil companion: I'm blind, my eyes are destroyed. I've stumbled on a wilderness track. Even if I must crawl, I'll go on, but not with an evil companion. Thag 95 "With regard to external factors, I don't envision any other single factor like friendship with admirable people in being so helpful for a monk who is a learner, who has not attained the goal but remains intent on the unsurpassed rest from the yoke. A monk who is a friend with admirable people abandons what is unskillful and develops what is skillful." Iti 17 metta and peace, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > Hi Sarah, > > Welcome back and thanks for the encouraging words. > > I'm having one of those mental blocks that I've told you > about before, so don't expect any 'pithy' closing lines. > :-) The surf at Noosa is particularly good at the > moment; maybe that's why I don't have energy for anything > else -- maybe age is catching up with me?! > > You wrote to James: > > We all know this is a discussion group and we're just > > giving comments according to our present understanding > > which can be questioned and challenged at any time. > > > The efficacy of Dhamma discussion, is a topic we don't > seem to discuss much. (Perhaps we're a little self- > conscious.) There are some lines in the suttas that give > friendship pride of place. They say it is the whole of > the holy life (or was it 'the whole of the Dhamma?'). It > will be good if you (or anyone), can comment on that some > time. (No pressure. :-) ) > > Kind regards, > Ken H 23484 From: m. nease Date: Thu Jul 17, 2003 7:25pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Anicca (Impermanence)/KenH Dear Luan (and Chris), I think Luan's right: ----- Original Message ----- From: phamdluan2000 To: Sent: Thursday, July 17, 2003 8:13 AM Subject: [dsg] Re: Anicca (Impermanence)/KenH > I think there are two levels > in the Buddha's teachings: > in the first level, ego is considered > a reality. Therefore will, desire, > aspiration, effort are all << real >> > Only in the second level that > one begins to see the illusory > characteristic of the ego. From Nyanatiloka's 'Buddhist Dictionary' Paramattha (-sacca, -vacana, -desanå) 'truth (or term, exposition) that is true in the highest (or ultimate) sense', as contrasted with the 'conventional truth' (vohåra-sacca), which is also called 'commonly accepted truth' (sammuti-sacca; in Skr: samvrti-satya). The Buddha, in explaining his doctrine, sometimes used conventional language and sometimes the philosophical mode of expression which is in accordance whith undeluded insight into reality. In that ultimate sense, existence is a mere process of physical and mental phenomena within which, or beyond which, no real ego-entity nor any abiding substance can ever be found. Thus, whenever the suttas speak of man, woman or person, or of the rebirth of a being, this must not be taken as being valid in the ultimate sense, but as a mere conventional mode of speech (vohåra-vacana). mike 23485 From: kenhowardau Date: Thu Jul 17, 2003 9:47pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Anicca (Impermanence) "yu_zhonghao" wrote: > Hi Ken, > > When you said that there is no control, do you mean > that one can not make the conditioned permanent, > satisfactory, self? Hello Victor, Yes, I think that is exactly what we are being taught. If consciousness were self, then it would be possible to decree, "Let consciousness be permanent and not subject to suffering," and so on for each of the other four khandhas." (I'm sure you know the sutta I'm trying to remember here.) But in reality, no-one, not even a Buddha has control. > Do you mean that one can refrain and control self from > unwholesome action in body, speech, and mind? I'm not sure I follow that question. Wouldn't it be misleading to talk about control of the self, when we are trying to understand that self is an illusion? "Mere suffering exists, no sufferer is found; The deeds are, but no doer of the deeds is there; Nibbana is, but not the man that enters it; The Path is but no traveller on it is seen." (Vis. XVI) If I have missed the point of your question, please give me another try. :-) Kind regards, Ken H 23486 From: christine_forsyth Date: Thu Jul 17, 2003 10:47pm Subject: Not such a silly question .... was(Re: Anicca (Impermanence)/KenH) Dear Sarah, Robert, and All, Thank you for your posts, I guess I'm still not understanding this. Sarah, you say: 'the Wish or Act of Merit only succeeds for one such as Sumedha'. I read many posts on various lists about thousands of people making Bodhisattva vows/aspirations - is not this a similar type of Aspiration that the Buddha, Ananda and the others made? And RobK, I wonder why having nibbana as the goal isn't a good thing to be encouraged? When I first heard of it, and new how difficult and long the way was - it seemed a comfort, it made rebirth seem almost like 'travelling eternity'. I even thought it might be a good thing to do 'just enough', to make enough merit (if one could find out how much was 'enough') to keep being reborn in happy conditions. But, in reality, we are trapped on a Ferris Wheel - going round and round - but going nowhere. When I read of the development by the Buddha of the Perfections, over aeons, the stories always seem to imply that he remembered the past lives and knew what his goal was. We, however, don't remember our past lives, and seem to trip over the Dhamma by accident. The terms The Noble Eightfold Path and The Way seem to indicate a direction to travel in, leading to a destination. This journey will take such a long time anyway - but surely much longer if one doesn't head for a goal. I guess the idea of beginningless time is becoming a little discouraging to me nowadays. metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: 23487 From: christine_forsyth Date: Thu Jul 17, 2003 11:14pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Anicca (Impermanence)/KenH Hello KKT, Due to some domestic distractions, I have only just now read your Post. Thank you for the reminder of the two levels of teaching. You say ego, will, desire are synonymous and give the example of using a thorn to remove a thorn .. that this is the same as using a self to remove the idea of self. As Howard says (I think) we need to start where we are. Therefore, while we still have self-view then it is natural to think of control, and to act as if there is a self who can plan and do things. But 'acting as if' something illusory is real, is different to actually 'making mindstates happen', I think? metta and peace, christine --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "phamdluan2000" wrote: > Dear Christine, > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" > wrote: > > > > CJF: I hope this isn't a silly question... If there is no control, > if there is no self who can will or wish the arising of any > mindstate - how is it that the Buddha, Ananda, Sariputta, and > MahaMoggallana could make aspirations aeons ago to be in the roles in > which we know them? Isn't an aspiration a Big Wish? > > > > > KKT: I think the problem is very simple. > > As long as ego persists > (ie. the feeling of I, me, mine, myself > or the sense of separate individuality) > there will be will, desire, aspiration. > > Because ego, will, desire are synonymous. > > No-will, no-desire are << effective >> > only when there is no more ego. > > But there is no harm with ego. > > Think of this: > > << using a thorn to remove a thorn >> > > I think there are two levels > in the Buddha's teachings: > in the first level, ego is considered > a reality. Therefore will, desire, > aspiration, effort are all << real >> > Only in the second level that > one begins to see the illusory > characteristic of the ego. > > > Peace, > > > KKT 23488 From: Sarah Date: Thu Jul 17, 2003 11:37pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Anicca (Impermanence)/KenH Hi Steve (& Mike), --- bodhi2500 wrote: Steve: > Hi Sarah > In paramattha terms chanda cetasika in Right effort,is often > translated as desire/wish to do. With this understanding, can it not > be said that desire/chanda is a factor of the path that leads to the > cessation of dukkha? And I would think without desire/chanda of right > effort there can be no development of the path? But this desire must > arise with the right conditions, which would be different to > wishing/desire rooted in lobha. .... Sarah: As Mike said, your comments and quotes are all good ones. Indeed there cannot be any wholesome consciousness without chanda searching out its object. However, I took the desire being discussed by Howard to be lobha, accompanied by unwholesome chanda. As we know, it arises with all kinds of lobha and we cannot say that because the object is nibbana or wisdom, for example, that therefore the citta and accompanying chanda must be wholesome. Nina writes in ‘Cetasikas”: http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas14.html ***** Quote >The lokuttara cittas are accompanied by chanda which "searches for' nibbana. This kind of chanda is lokuttara, it is different from longing for nibbana. It assists the Iokuttara citta to carry out its function. The lokuttara citta and thus also the accompanying chanda directly experience nibbana (1 For details about the cittas which are accompanied by chanda, see Appendix 6.). How do we know when chanda is kusala and when it is akusala? For instance, when we have desire for sati, is this kusala chanda or attachment? We have accumulated a great deal of attachment and thus there is likely to be more often attachment than kusala chanda. We are attached to a concept of sati and we believe that we can cause its arising. Wanting to have sati is different from the moment sati arises. There are many moments of forgetfuless but sometimes there may be a moment of mindfulness of only one object at a time appearing through one of the six doors. When sati arises it is accompanied by kusala chanda which performs its function. Kindred saying(V,Mahavagga,XLV,kindred sayings on the > way,ChapterIV,II,restrain of passion) > > just as, monks the dawn is the forerunner,the harbringer of the > arising sun,so possession of desire(chanda) is the forerunner, the > harbinger of the arising of the 8 Fold Noble path. Of a monk who is > possessed of desire, it may be expected that he will cultivate the > Noble 8 Fold Path. ..... Sarah: Yes, without(sobhana) chanda, there is no eightfold path and we also read that it’s one of the four predominant factors, one of the bodhipakkhiya dhammas and so on. I liked the definition Mike quoted of “the stretching forth of the mind's hand towards the object” with the object as proximate cause. Like he said, I think the wholesome moments of ‘stretching forth’ for the object are rare amongst those rooted in attachment. Thanks for your helpful input. I’ll be glad for any more. Thanks, Mike for precious help as well. Metta, Sarah ===== 23489 From: gazita2002 Date: Fri Jul 18, 2003 0:12am Subject: Re: Kalyana-mitta - Admirable Friends was( Anicca (Impermanence)/KenH) --- dear Christine, the following passages have made for wonderful reading for me. Thanks. A happy birthday too, I've just had mine, and I know you and I have close-together birthdays. Hope it's a good, full of kusala and Kalana-Mittas type of day. May the Ferris Wheel be joyful, Azita Imogen [bec I imagine things are as they aren't] In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Hello KenH, Sarah and All, > > I felt I wanted to write a little on this topic as I know from > experience the absolute necessity of having supportive > Dhamma friends to encourage one to stick with Buddhism for the long > haul. (I am taking it that you mean Kalyana-mitta, Admirable > Friends). Mostly, ordinary friendship means associating with those > to whom one is attracted, whose personality one likes and finds > pleasant, who share the same interests and activities, with whom one > can laugh> > [snip] 23490 From: rjkjp1 Date: Fri Jul 18, 2003 0:35am Subject: Not such a silly question .... was(Re: Anicca (Impermanence)/KenH) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" < RobK, I wonder why having nibbana as the goal isn't a > good thing to be encouraged? When I first heard of it, and new how > difficult and long the way was - it seemed a comfort, it made > rebirth seem almost like 'travelling eternity'. I even thought it > might be a good thing to do 'just enough', to make enough merit (if > one could find out how much was 'enough') to keep being reborn in > happy conditions. But, in reality, we are trapped on a Ferris > Wheel - going round and round - but going nowhere. When I read of > the development by the Buddha of the Perfections, over aeons, the > stories always seem to imply that he remembered the past lives and > knew what his goal was. We, however, don't remember our past lives, > and seem to trip over the Dhamma by accident. The terms The Noble > Eightfold Path and The Way seem to indicate a direction to travel in, > leading to a destination. This journey will take such a long time > anyway - but surely much longer if one doesn't head for a goal. I > guess the idea of beginningless time is becoming a little > discouraging to me nowadays. > > __________ Dear Christine, Thanks for asking me this so I have the chance to clarify. I think this is an important topic. I wrote: ""I used to think that desire for such lofty goals as nibbana was something benign or even to be encouraged. However we need to be scrutinize very carefully the moments when such thoughts arise to learn whether there is genuine aspiration (aditthana parami). I quote from Nina's book about the parami: <..snip> ...Yes, it is fine to aspire for exalted states but we have to be sincere so that we know what it takes."" ____ What I was trying to say is that chanda arises with lobha and dosa as well as with all kusala states. The chanda which comes with wholesome aspiration to reach the goal is a different order from that which I used to have much of not so many years ago. They look similar in that both have nibbana as conceptual object but one is with lobha and clinging to self. If there is this type then discouragement is bound to come, sooner or later, because lobha and dosa are two sides of the same coin. The wholesome aspiration looks at obstacles along the way with relish so that the harder it gets the more piti ( cf Larry ) and addhitana (determination) and patience and so on grow. Nothing really hinders this type. This is conditioned by wisdom too: ""The commentary to the Cariyapitaka 1) states that the Bodhisatta considers the following: 'Mere dhammas alone exist, devoid of self or of anything pertaining to a self. They arise and pass away in accordance with their conditions. They do not come from anywhere, they do not go anywhere, they are not established anywhere. There is no agency in anything whatsoever. In this way a Bodhisatta becomes fixed in his destiny, bound for enlightenment, irreversible.'""endquote This is the reason to stress much on anatta. It is the key to the door out of samsara. And along the way it is the refuge that increases understanding of the moment. Whenever there is any discouragement there is the taking of concepts associated with I and my and mine. So such feelings show us where clinging , wrong view and conceit lie. Fine to have those feelings and great if they can help us- by being an object- develop the addhitana(determination) to carry on no matter what comes. robertk 23491 From: Sarah Date: Fri Jul 18, 2003 0:48am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Not such a silly question...... Hi James (& Christine & All), --- buddhatrue wrote: > > Could you please explain what the Buddha had prior to enlightenment, > that drove him to achieve enlightenment, and do so without using any > words that relate to desire or control? .... Not sure it’ll be adequate, but I’ll try to summarise the account of key factors in his life as Sumedha. Leaving out desire and control is the easy part. Before I start, Nina recently quoted from the Comy to the Cariyapitaka with regard to one of his last lives as a Bodhisatta which I hope you won’t mind my re-quoting here: “He had the highest degree of contentment with little, he delighted in tranquillity, he had no concern for his body and his life, because his aim was equanimity. He practised the abandonment of defilements to the highest degree, he endured the ugly deeds from others. He had the firm determination to diminish the defilements which were opposed to the requisites of enlightenment by evenmindedness in all respects. This caused him to be without excess, to be impartial towards others who supported him and to those who did not. He was like an arahat and hence he did not cling to the vicissitudes of life. He reached the peak of the perfection of equanimity, and as such it is pre-eminently a perfection leading to the awakening of a Buddha (Buddha påramí).” ***** In his life as Sumedha, when he made his great aspiration or Wish before Dipankara Buddha (a hundred thousand aeons and four incalculables previously) he was already ripe for enlightenment. Sariputta asked the Buddha what his resolve had been at this time. We read (Chronicle of Buddhas and Comy) about his appreciation of the noble truths. He appreciated ‘this putrid body’ as being a ‘conglomeration of various ordures’ which reminds me of the Comy to the Maharahulavada sutta, Nina is translating. Earlier her Comy translation discussed how what is taken for the body are the various elements and so we see that this (direct) understanding is essential for overcoming desires on account of the sense doors, I think. Sumedha the Wise (as he was known) gave away all his possessions and the household life, “from content and detachment”. He attained all jhanas and attainments. Later after Dipankara Buddha’s enlightenment, Sumedha lay down in his path and knew it was possible to be enlightened himself, by made his resolve to become a future Buddha by his act of merit, i.e sacrificing his life to Dipankara Buddha. Chris, we read about all the special conditions - human, male, ripe for enlightenment, in the presence of a living Buddha, gone forth, obtained the 8 attainments and 5 super-knowledges, special sacrifice and great resolve that are essential for becoming a Bodhisatta. For more details, you may like to review these posts, mostly by Nina: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/18577 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/22341 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/22428 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/22462 ***** Dipankara Buddha knew his aspiration and resolve would succeed when he saw him and could foresee his future life as Gotama Buddha. Sumedha then determined on the Perfections, starting with dana (generosity)as we read about in the Cariyapitaka and Jatakas. Without the development of all of these qualities through all those aeons, we would not be able to hear the Teachings today, as I understand. Hope to hear your comments and any other explanations as well. With metta, Sarah ===== 23492 From: christine_forsyth Date: Fri Jul 18, 2003 1:27am Subject: Re: Kalyana-mitta - Admirable Friends Hello Azita, and all, I'm glad you had a happy day - my birthday was a few weeks ago, in late June. Do you have hibernating snakes up your way? - I've spent this afternoon in my study typing on the computer while sitting cross- legged on the chair (and keeping a broom handy) after seeing a nearly two metre greeny-brown snake slither across the carpet around the fax machine and behind a pile of articles on the floor. I'm assuming he came in because of the winter weather to hibernate (or am I getting confused with bears?), and I'm assuming it was a tree snake not a rough scale snake because it didn't strike at me. I put the dog out and put a towel under the door so the snake could'nt get into the rest of the house. I opened the floor to ceiling casement window, and hoped for the best. I went out for a while, and when I came back, he slithered across the floor behind me. So I went out again. Next time I came back, I couldn't find the snake at all (looking behind cabinets etc. with a torch). Not finding him, I went to close the window and came face to face with him between the two panes of glass. Such a delicate small head and large dark eyes, his tongue poking out and tasting the air. I had palpitations trying to wrestle a jammed window closed and encourage him to go down and out, not up and in. But being a tree snake (I think) he only wanted to go up. We came to an arrangement - I put both hoppers up with a small gap at the top of the outside one, and he graciously accepted the escape route. So, things worked out in the end and he is now outside in the trees or the gutter or in the roof. The interesting thing to me is the different way I viewed him compared to how I used to view snakes in my pre-buddhist days. Not much fear, and no revulsion. It even crossed my mind that I, too, may have been or may yet be a snake one day. Metta might be a wonderful thing, but it was not possible to engender the feeling towards the snake when fear, however slight, was holding centre stage. I could only try to act kindly. O.K. - got that off my mind - thanks for the debrief - now I can settle back to dhamma study again. :-) metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "gazita2002" wrote: > --- dear Christine, > > the following passages have made for wonderful reading for me. > Thanks. > A happy birthday too, I've just had mine, and I know you and I > have close-together birthdays. Hope it's a good, full of kusala and > Kalana-Mittas type of day. > May the Ferris Wheel be joyful, > Azita Imogen [bec I imagine things are as they aren't] > 23493 From: Sarah Date: Fri Jul 18, 2003 1:31am Subject: Re: [dsg] Kalyana-mitta - Admirable Friends was( Anicca (Impermanence)/KenH) Hi Christine & Azita, Happy birthdays and many kalyana-mitta returns;-) May we all learn to appreciate and develop the qualities of kalyana-mittas. I’m prompted to add a little to your fine collection, Chris; 1.A couple of comy notes B.Bodhi gives to the sutta you quote on ‘Half the Holy Life”, SN p.1890-1: “Kalyaa.namittataa kalyaa.nasahaayataa kalyaa.nasampa’nkataa . The three are synonymous. Spk: When he was in seclusion Ananda thought, “This practice of an ascetic succeeds for one who relies on good friends and on his own manly effort, so half of it depends on good friends and half on one’s own manly effort.” “Spk: with children, it isn’t possible to say, “So much comes from the mother, so much from the father’; the same is true in this case too. One cannot say, “So much of right view, etc, comes from good friends, so much from one’s own manly effort.” The Blessed One says in effect: “The four paths, the four truths, etc, are all rooted in the good friend.” ***** 2.From Comy to the Metta Discourse, Khuddakapaatha (Minor Readings - PTS p289): “Herein he fattens (mejjati) and tends (taayati), thus he is a friend (mitta); the meaning is that by his inclination to welfare he acts as a lubricant (siniyhati) and protects from harm’s coming. The state of a friend (mittassa bhaavo) is love (mettaa = lovingkindness). ***** 3.From the Netti-ppakara.na’m (The Guide - PTS p.216): “ ‘Bhikkhus, when a good friend possesses seven factors he should never be rejected by one as long as life lasts, even if one is sent away and dismissed, even if one is driven away (panujjamaanena). What seven? He is endearing, venerable and emulatable (bhaavaniiya), he is willing to talk to one and willing for one to talk with him, and he never exhorts groundlessly (in a manner not in conformity with the True Idea and Outguiding Discipline). When a good friend possesses these seven factors.....even if driven away.’ That is what the Blessed One said. When the Sublime One had said this, he, the Master, said further: ‘Dear, venerale, to be emulated, Who talks to one, and can be talked with, too, Is willing to explain what is profound, And never gives a groundless exhortation: A friend like that may well be served for life By one who is desirous of a friend’.” ***** With metta, Sarah ===== --- christine_forsyth wrote: > > Upaddha Sutta 'Half'(of the Holy Life) > > As he was seated to one side, Ven. Ananda said to the Blessed > One, "This is half of the holy life, Lord: being a friend with > admirable people, a companion with admirable people, a colleague with > admirable people." > "Don't say that, Ananda. Don't say that. Being a friend with > admirable people, a companion with admirable people, a colleague with > admirable people is actually the whole of the holy life. 23494 From: buddhatrue Date: Fri Jul 18, 2003 2:36am Subject: [dsg] Re: Not such a silly question...... Hi James (& Christine & All), --- buddhatrue wrote: > > Could you please explain what the Buddha had prior to enlightenment, > that drove him to achieve enlightenment, and do so without using any > words that relate to desire or control? .... Not sure it'll be adequate, but I'll try to summarise the account of key factors in his life as Sumedha. Leaving out desire and control is the easy part. Dipankara Buddha knew his aspiration and resolve would succeed when he saw him and could foresee his future life as Gotama Buddha. Sumedha then determined on the Perfections, starting with dana (generosity)as we read about in the Cariyapitaka and Jatakas. Hi Sarah, I'm not going to let myself be pulled into discussing all of this pre- historical conjecture for the Buddha, which I don't believe for a second, because it is entirely beside the point. I want to focus on your phrase "Sumedha then determined on the Perfections". This phrase is ungrammatical, and it is ungrammatical for a specific purpose. I believe that you are purposefully trying to downplay the role of conscious will, desire, and control. This phrase is missing a necessary verb, the verb `to be'. Sumedha had to determine' something' with the Perfections; he had to determine to embody them, reject them, or ignore them. He had some sort of choice which came about because of his desire/will. Not only that, he had control over what his choice was to be. By leaving out a necessary verb, and making the statement ungrammatical (yet oddly esoteric), you make it appear as if everything has happened without a vortex of control. This is not the first time I have noticed this semantic trickery in yours and others posts in this group; all devout followers of A. Sujin. Metta, James 23495 From: Sarah Date: Fri Jul 18, 2003 2:57am Subject: Donkeys and Desire (was Re: Anicca (Impermanence)/KenH) Hi Victor (& Steve), I may well be a donkey but I can’t add more on the donkey sutta (without any Pali or Comy);-) However, I am quite sure the desire referred to there refers to wholesome chanda and other qualities. Looking at this one, I’m more sure that it is chanda (desire)being referred to: --- yu_zhonghao wrote: > Samyutta Nikaya LI.15 > Brahmana Sutta > To Unnabha the Brahman > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn51-015.html ..... Note that this sutta is in the Iddhipaadasa.myutta section of the Mahaavagga (Great Book). It may be helpful to consider more about chanda as an iddhipada which I don’t believe has anything to do with ‘desire’ as we generally know it, but it does relate to the qualities and powers of the Bodhisatta which I just mentioned:-) Following on from the other quote I gave from ‘Cetasikas’ on chanda, we read: “When we develop kusala, chanda may be predominant; it may have predominance over the accompanying dhammas, there are four factors which can be predominant, but only one at a time can be predominant. The four predominant factors (adhipatis) are: chanda, viriya, citta (particular types of citta) and "investigation" or "reflection" (vimamsa, which is panna cetasika) (1 See Dhammasangani 269, and Atthasalini I, Part VII, 212, 213. .......... When these factors have been developed they become the four " Roads to success" (iddhipadas) leading to the attainment of the "supernormal powers" (abhinnas). There are five "supernormal powers" which are developed through jhana (Vis. chapter XIII. The sixth power, which is the extinction of all defilements, is developed through vipassana. Chanda or one of the three other "Roads to success" can be predominant in the development of vipassana (2 The four "Roads to Success" are among the thirty seven factors pertaining to enlightenment, bodhipakkhiya dhammas, Visuddhimagga xxii, 33.).” ***** B.Bodhi also gives this note to the following lines in the first sutta in Iddhipaadasa.myutta, SN: “.....a bhikkhu develops the basis for spiritual power that possesses concentration due to desire and volitional formations of striving....” Note: BB: “....Spk (the Comy) resolves iddhipaada into both iddhiyaa paada.m, “base for spiritual power,” and iddhibhuuta.m paada.m, “base which is piritual power.” Iddhi, from the verb ijjhati - to prosper, to succeed, to flourish - originally meant success, but by the time of the Buddha it had already acquired the special nuance of spiritual success or, even more to the point, spiritual power. This can be of two kinds; success in the exercise of the iddhividha, the supernormal powers, and success in the endeavour to win liberation. The two converge in arahantship, which is both the sixth abhi~n~na (in continuity with the supernormal powers) and the final fruit of the Noble Eightfold Path. A full treatise on the various kinds of idhi mentioned in the canon is at Pa.tis 205-14. The analysis at 51-13 (sutta: Concentration Due to Desire) makes it clear that an iddhipaada contains three main components: concentration (samaadhi), the four volitional formations of striving (padhaanasa’nkhaaraa), and the particular factor responsible for generating concentration - desire (chanda), energy (viriya), mind (citta), and investigation (vima.msaa). While concentration and striving are common to all four idhipaada, it is the last-named factors that differentiate them as fourfold.” ***** Victor, this is all very difficult for me to understand in any thing but the most superficial way. However, it may just show why I think the desire referred to in the development is wholesome chanda. We can also read more about it under adhipati paccaya (predominance condition). Again these are examples of abhidhamma detail in the suttas and why, I think, the understanding of the suttas is not so simple at all. Perhaps Steve can help further with any of the Pali for these terms in the suttas you’ve referred us to. I'd appreciate his or any other input. Look forward to more of your comments too, Victor. Metta, Sarah ====== 23496 From: Sarah Date: Fri Jul 18, 2003 3:09am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Not such a silly question...... Hi James, --- buddhatrue wrote: > your phrase "Sumedha then determined on the Perfections". This > phrase is ungrammatical, and it is ungrammatical for a specific > purpose. .... This phrase should read 'Sumedha then determined on developing (or 'perfecting' the Perfections (Parami)'. No trickery of any kind intended nor any self or being:-) Metta, Sarah ====== 23497 From: buddhatrue Date: Fri Jul 18, 2003 3:58am Subject: [dsg] Re: Not such a silly question...... --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > Hi James, > > --- buddhatrue wrote: > > your phrase "Sumedha then determined on the Perfections". This > > phrase is ungrammatical, and it is ungrammatical for a specific > > purpose. > > .... > This phrase should read 'Sumedha then determined on developing (or > 'perfecting' the Perfections (Parami)'. > > No trickery of any kind intended nor any self or being:-) > > Metta, > > Sarah > ====== Hi Sarah, Then there you have the locus of control/choice/desire. Metta, James 23498 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Fri Jul 18, 2003 5:48am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Anicca (Impermanence) Victor Here's something we agree on! I agree with your observations below about dukkha/suffering. As I understand it, dukkha is a *characteristic of all conditioned phenomena* (sankhara dhammas). Conditioned phenomena are by nature anicca/dukkha/anatta, and nothing can ever change that. Conditioned phenomena are no less 'dukkha' in nature to the enlightened being than they are to the worldling. In fact, almost the opposite, since the enlightened being has clearly seen (and continues to see) conditioned phenomena as anicca/dukkha/anatta, while the worldling has not clearly seen the true nature of conditioned phenomena. Dukkha is also an aspect of the Four Noble Truths. These truths are immutable truths of existence in this realm of conditioned phenomena, and are as true for the enlightened being as they are for the worldling. Again, the enlightened being has experienced the truth of these assertions, while the worldling has not. As you have made clear, conditioned phenomena are not any the less dukkha, nor is the first Noble Truth any the less apparent, because of the attainment of enlightenment. Jon --- yu_zhonghao wrote: > Hi Howard and all, > > Worldly dhamma is impermanent, dukkha/unsatisfactory, not self, > whether one is uprooted of greed, aversion, and delusion or not. > > When one is uprooted of effluents, he or she is freed from the > round > of rebirth. He or she knows that 'Birth is ended, the holy life > fulfilled, the task done. There is nothing further for this world.' > > However, the conditioned, the worldly dhamma is still impermanent. > It is still unsatisfactory/dukkha. It is still not self. > > Your comments are appreciated. > > Peace, > Victor 23499 From: Date: Fri Jul 18, 2003 2:16am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Not such a silly question...... Hi, James - In a message dated 7/18/03 5:36:40 AM Eastern Daylight Time, buddhatrue@y... writes: > Hi Sarah, > > I'm not going to let myself be pulled into discussing all of this pre- > historical conjecture for the Buddha, which I don't believe for a > second, because it is entirely beside the point. I want to focus on > your phrase "Sumedha then determined on the Perfections". This > phrase is ungrammatical, and it is ungrammatical for a specific > purpose. I believe that you are purposefully trying to downplay the > role of conscious will, desire, and control. This phrase is missing > a necessary verb, the verb `to be'. Sumedha had to determine' > something' with the Perfections; he had to determine to embody them, > reject them, or ignore them. He had some sort of choice which came > about because of his desire/will. Not only that, he had control over > what his choice was to be. By leaving out a necessary verb, and > making the statement ungrammatical (yet oddly esoteric), you make it > appear as if everything has happened without a vortex of control. > This is not the first time I have noticed this semantic trickery in > yours and others posts in this group; all devout followers of A. > Sujin. > > Metta, James > > ============================= Your psychological insight in analyzing the sentence form here may be excellent, but your presupposition of willful intention to mislead is, in my opinion, unfounded. Most of the time, the overwhelming majority of people are quite unaware of what subliminal processes condition the mode of their speech, and while we can form hypotheses about that, we cannot know for certain, unless our telepathic abilities are flawless, nor can we easily distinguish subliminal influence from conscious decision. For friendship's sake, at the very least, it seems to me that benefit of doubt should be given and suspicions put aside. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 23500 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Fri Jul 18, 2003 6:16am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Anicca (Impermanence)/KenH KKT --- phamdluan2000 wrote: > Dear Christine, ... > I think there are two levels > in the Buddha's teachings: > in the first level, ego is considered > a reality. Therefore will, desire, > aspiration, effort are all << real >> > Only in the second level that > one begins to see the illusory > characteristic of the ego. Hmm... This sounds a bit dubious to me ;-)). Can you point to any part of the teachings where 'self' is considered a reality? To my understanding, all moments of kusala are free of the idea of self (although a moment of kusala may of course be preceded by or succeeded by the idea of self). I'd be interested to hear your further commments on this. Jon 23501 From: Date: Fri Jul 18, 2003 2:24am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Not such a silly question...... Hi, James and Sarah - I wrote and posted the following too quickly. I would better have waited for your reply Sarah, and your follow-up, James. I do stick by the content of my post, but I apologize for butting in. With metta to you both, Howard In a message dated 7/18/03 9:17:58 AM Eastern Daylight Time, upasaka@a... writes: > > Hi, James - > > In a message dated 7/18/03 5:36:40 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > buddhatrue@y... writes: > > >Hi Sarah, > > > >I'm not going to let myself be pulled into discussing all of this pre- > >historical conjecture for the Buddha, which I don't believe for a > >second, because it is entirely beside the point. I want to focus on > >your phrase "Sumedha then determined on the Perfections". This > >phrase is ungrammatical, and it is ungrammatical for a specific > >purpose. I believe that you are purposefully trying to downplay the > >role of conscious will, desire, and control. This phrase is missing > >a necessary verb, the verb `to be'. Sumedha had to determine' > >something' with the Perfections; he had to determine to embody them, > >reject them, or ignore them. He had some sort of choice which came > >about because of his desire/will. Not only that, he had control over > >what his choice was to be. By leaving out a necessary verb, and > >making the statement ungrammatical (yet oddly esoteric), you make it > >appear as if everything has happened without a vortex of control. > >This is not the first time I have noticed this semantic trickery in > >yours and others posts in this group; all devout followers of A. > >Sujin. > > > >Metta, James > > > > > ============================= > Your psychological insight in analyzing the sentence form here may be > excellent, but your presupposition of willful intention to mislead is, in my > > opinion, unfounded. > Most of the time, the overwhelming majority of people are quite > unaware of what subliminal processes condition the mode of their speech, and > while > we can form hypotheses about that, we cannot know for certain, unless our > telepathic abilities are flawless, nor can we easily distinguish subliminal > influence from conscious decision. For friendship's sake, at the very least, > it seems > to me that benefit of doubt should be given and suspicions put aside. > > With metta, > Howard > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 23502 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Jul 18, 2003 10:08am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Anicca (Impermanence) Hi Larry, I completely agree. This does not mean that there is a specific order of their arising. This does not mean that the citta that develops insight stage by stage cannot be with upekkha and without piti. When we study texts about concentration as proximate cause for panna, we have to look at the context. Nina. op 17-07-2003 01:04 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > Hi Nina, > > One more point. Piti (joyful interest) is one of the 7 enlightenment > factors (bojjhanga). The others are: sati (mindfulness), invesigation of > dhamma, energy, tranquility, concentration, equanimity. > > "Because they lead to enlightenment, therefore they are called > enlightenment factors" (S XLVI, 5). > > Larry 23503 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Fri Jul 18, 2003 11:04am Subject: [dsg] Re: Anicca (Impermanence) Hi Ken, I don't think it is misleading to talk about control of self, or self-control. In fact, the Buddha taught about self-control. If you do a search on "self-control" in www.accesstoinsight.org with www.google.com, you can find many references to self-control in the discourses. For examples, Sutta Nipata I.10 Alavaka Sutta To the Alavaka Yakkha http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/khuddaka/suttanipata/snp1- 10.html Dhammapada 12 The Self http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/khuddaka/dhp1/12.html Dhammapada I Pairs http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/khuddaka/dhp/01.html Sutta Nipata II.14 Dhammika Sutta Dhammika http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/khuddaka/suttanipata/snp2- 14.html Anguttara Nikaya VII.60 Kodhana Sutta An Angry Person http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an07-060.html Dhammapada XIX The Judge http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/khuddaka/dhp/19.html Sutta Nipata II.4 Maha-mangala Sutta Blessings http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/khuddaka/suttanipata/snp2- 04b.html While one can not make the conditioned permanent, satisfactory, one's self, one can refrain/control one's self from the unwholesome actions in body, speech, and mind, one can control one's self to cultivate what is wholesome. Your comments are appreciated. Peace, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: [snip] > Hello Victor, > > Yes, I think that is exactly what we are being taught. > If consciousness were self, then it would be possible to > decree, "Let consciousness be permanent and not subject > to suffering," and so on for each of the other four > khandhas." (I'm sure you know the sutta I'm trying to > remember here.) But in reality, no-one, not even a Buddha > has control. > > > > Do you mean that one can refrain and control self from > > unwholesome action in body, speech, and mind? > > > I'm not sure I follow that question. Wouldn't it be > misleading to talk about control of the self, when we are > trying to understand that self is an illusion? > > "Mere suffering exists, no sufferer is found; > The deeds are, but no doer of the deeds is there; > Nibbana is, but not the man that enters it; > The Path is but no traveller on it is seen." > (Vis. XVI) > > If I have missed the point of your question, please give > me another try. :-) > > Kind regards, > Ken H 23504 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Fri Jul 18, 2003 0:13pm Subject: Donkeys and Desire (was Re: Anicca (Impermanence)/KenH) Hi Sarah, Thank you for your reply and references. I appreciate it. Desire itself can be quite neutral in terms of being skillful/wholesome or unskillful/unwholesome. It is what/whom one desires for makes the difference. Thus the word "desire" needs to be understood in its proper context. Pali words "chanda" and "iccha" can be translated as "desire". However, each Pali original has it's own connotation. Thank you again for your reply. Your comments are appreciated. Peace, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > Hi Victor (& Steve), > [snip] > > Look forward to more of your comments too, Victor. > > Metta, > > Sarah 23505 From: phamdluan2000 Date: Fri Jul 18, 2003 4:31pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Anicca (Impermanence)/KenH Dear Jon, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: KKT --- phamdluan2000 wrote: > Dear Christine, ... > I think there are two levels > in the Buddha's teachings: > in the first level, ego is considered > a reality. Therefore will, desire, > aspiration, effort are all << real >> > Only in the second level that > one begins to see the illusory > characteristic of the ego. Hmm... This sounds a bit dubious to me ;-)). Can you point to any part of the teachings where 'self' is considered a reality? To my understanding, all moments of kusala are free of the idea of self (although a moment of kusala may of course be preceded by or succeeded by the idea of self). I'd be interested to hear your further commments on this. Jon KKT: The reason is very simple. All the monks and laymen the Buddha taught were not yet Arahat. Therefore they were supposed still possessing an ego. Thus the teachings the Buddha addressed them should be in accord with their reality of 'self'. BTW, do you notice that the second sermon of the Buddha that is the Anattalakkhana Sutta (The Discourse of Not Self) was delivered to the group of five ascetics Kondanna who were already SOTAPANNA ! This shows that such a teaching in this Sutta is not for simple worldlings! All the five became Arahat after hearing this sermon. Peace, KKT 23506 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Jul 18, 2003 9:22pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Kalyana-mitta - Admirable Friends Dear Christine, Thank you for your post and good quotes. I like this stanza too very much. I enjoyed your story about the snake. Friendship for the snake. I had a similar experience in Bgk, breakfast with a snake sleeping on a chair beside me, while I was listening to A. Sujin's radio program. The cook was upset, he was not so harmless, but I did not mind. Sometimes good friends help without knowing it, by giving the right text, during discussion in this forum, just what one needed in times of trouble. Nina. op 18-07-2003 04:10 schreef christine_forsyth op cforsyth@v...: > "The Mahamangala Sutta, the Great Discourse on Blessings, is one of > the most popular Buddhist suttas, .... In the very first stanza of his > reply the Buddha states that the highest blessing comes from avoiding > fools and associating with the wise (asevana ca balanam, panditanan > ca sevana). 23507 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Jul 19, 2003 3:08am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Kalyana-mitta - Admirable Friends Chris Thanks for the account of this interesting indicent and your thoughts on it. --- christine_forsyth wrote: > Hello Azita, and all, ... > Do you have hibernating snakes up your way? - I've spent this > afternoon in my study typing on the computer while sitting cross- > legged on the chair (and keeping a broom handy) after seeing a > nearly > two metre greeny-brown snake slither across the carpet around the > fax machine and behind a pile of articles on the floor. I'm ... > The interesting thing to me > is the different way I viewed him compared to how I used to view > snakes in my pre-buddhist days. Not much fear, and no revulsion. > It even crossed my mind that I, too, may have been or may yet be a > snake > one day. Metta might be a wonderful thing, but it was not possible > to engender the feeling towards the snake when fear, however slight, > was holding centre stage. I could only try to act kindly. > O.K. - got that off my mind - thanks for the debrief - now I can > settle back to dhamma study again. :-) Well done! I think few would have managed to remain as calm in the circumstances as you did. Yes, it's interesting what a difference it makes just knowing that the 'usual' reaction is strong akusala and so not to be encouraged/developed. This can already be a great help in our daily lives. By the way, even though there was no appreciable metta at that time, there might still have been moments of metta conditioned by the useful reflection that obviously went on at the time. Perhaps on some future occasion those moments will be more apparent. Or then again, perhaps not (the good thing is, it doesn't really matter ;-)). Jon 23508 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Jul 19, 2003 3:17am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sumedha's vow (was, Re: Not such a silly question....) James --- buddhatrue wrote: ... > Then there you have the locus of control/choice/desire. I thought you might be interested to see the relevant passage about the vow made by Sumedha in the presence of the Buddha Dipankara. This is taken from the introduction to the Jataka, and is said to have been related by the Buddha to his disciples. Note that Sumedha was already on the verge of enlightenment at the time of making the vow (a fact of which he was fully aware -- 'To-day, if such were my desire, I my corruptions might consume....'), this being one of the 8 conditions necessary for successful fulfilment of such a vow (see footnote 2 below). I think this puts Sumedha's vow in a different category to most people's wish/determinatioin to have more kusala or greater understanding. Jon ********************** http://www.sacred-texts.com/bud/bits/bits001.htm § 1. THE STORY OF SUMEDHA. 62. Then loosened I my matted hair, And, spreading out upon the mud My dress of bark and cloak of skin, I laid me down upon my face. 63. "Let now on me The Buddha tread, With the disciples of his train; Can I but keep him from the mire, To me great merit shall accrue." 64. While thus I lay upon the ground,[1] Arose within me many thoughts: "To-day, if such were my desire, I my corruptions might consume. 65. "But why thus in an unknown guise Should I the Doctrine's fruit secure? Omniscience first will I achieve, And be a Buddha in the world. 66. "Or why should I, a valorous man, The ocean seek to cross alone? Omniscience first will I achieve, And men and gods convey across. 67. "Since now I make this earnest wish, In presence of this Best of Men, Omniscience sometime I'll achieve, And multitudes convey across. 68. "I'll rebirth's circling stream arrest, Destroy existence's three modes; I'll climb the sides of Doctrine's ship, And men and gods convey across. 69. "A human being,[2] male of sex, Who saintship gains, a Teacher meets, As hermit lives, and virtue loves, Nor lacks resolve, nor fiery zeal, Can by these eight conditions joined, Make his most earnest wish succeed." 70. Dîpamkara, Who Knew All Worlds, Recipient of Offerings, Came to a halt my pillow near, And thus addressed the multitudes: 71. "Behold ye now this monk austere, His matted locks, his penance fierce! Lo! he, unnumbered cycles hence, A Buddha in the world shall be. [1] As he lay in the mud, he opened his eyes again, and gazing upon the Buddha-glory of Dîpamkara, The Possessor of the Ten Forces, he reflected as follows: "If I so wished, I might burn up all my corruptions, and as novice follow with the congregation when they enter the city of Ramma; but I do not want to burn up my corruptions and enter Nirvana unknown to any one. What now if I, like Dîpamkara, were to acquire the supreme wisdom, were to cause multitudes to go on board the ship of Doctrine and cross the ocean of the round of rebirth, and were afterwards to pass into Nirvana! That would be something worthy of me!" [2] For it is only a human being that can successfully wish to be a Buddha; ... Of men it is he, and only he, who is in a fit condition by the attainment of saintship in that same existence, that can successfully make the wish.... ********************** 23509 From: peterdac4298 Date: Sat Jul 19, 2003 3:54am Subject: Off to Thailand Hi All Just to say that I'm off to Thailand. Right now I'm waiting on the last leg of my flight at Brunei Int. with about fifteen minutes to go before assembling at the depature gate, having already completed sixteen hours from Heathrow. I doubt if I'll get onto the 'net for a long time. I'm hoping to be taken on by a forest monatery for training. To be taken seriously, a commitement of five years is the minimum anyone will consider. However, if an opportunity arrises before then, I'll certainly try to take advantage of it. In the meantime, I have Nina's book to work through and will try to cover other titles from Zolag. Sorry I did'nt get the chance to meet up with Alan... Tannoy is announcing my flight, so must go. Please excuse spelling, no time for spell check. Mettacittena Peter Da Costa 23510 From: Sarah Date: Sat Jul 19, 2003 4:54am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Not such a silly question...... Hi Howard (& James), I’ve been tongue-tied today, literally, after cutting my tongue on a piece of glass in restaurant meal. Thankfully, it’s much better now and I’m able to write without opening my mouth;-) --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, James and Sarah - > > I wrote and posted the following too quickly. I would better have > > waited for your reply Sarah, and your follow-up, James. I do stick by > the content > of my post, but I apologize for butting in. ..... As far as I was concerned, I appreciated your comments and am always glad when you butt in. I had intended to drop the subject and as James implied, my original words here sounded a little unnatural: “Sumedha then determined on the Perfections, starting with dana (generosity)as we read about in the Cariyapitaka and Jatakas.” As I’m writing anyway, let me give the full passage from the Comy to the Chronicle of Buddhas, The Clarifier of Sweet Meaning, which I was skimming through as I wrote my summary. Sumedha is reflecting to himself here: “Wise Sumedha, you, from now onward should fulfill the first perfection, that of Giving. For as a jar of water that has ben overturned discharges all the water and takes none of it back, even so, recking of neither wealth nor fame nor wife and children nor any of the limbs, but giving completely of everything wished for for the prosperity of all supplicants, while seated at the root of the Tree of Awakening and thinking, ‘you will be a buddha,’” he firmly and resolutely DETERMINED ON THE FIRST PERFECTION, that of Giving.” (PTS, p150) ***** I read ‘determined on’ as meaning ‘resolved on’ as in “he determined on a new colour scheme for his house”. As RobK has been writing, anything we read in the texts, regardless of conventional or ‘ultimate’ language should be understood in the light of anatta and conditioned phenomena as in the quote he added (below). Thanks again Howard and also James for keeping me on my toes. With metta, Sarah ======= ""The commentary to the Cariyapitaka 1) states that the Bodhisatta considers the following: 'Mere dhammas alone exist, devoid of self or of anything pertaining to a self. They arise and pass away in accordance with their conditions. They do not come from anywhere, they do not go anywhere, they are not established anywhere. There is no agency in anything whatsoever. In this way a Bodhisatta becomes fixed in his destiny, bound for enlightenment, irreversible.'""endquote ======================================================= 23511 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Jul 19, 2003 6:23am Subject: Re: [dsg] Off to Thailand Peter Congratulations on making the effort to get to Thailand for Dhamma study. I wish you success in finding those with good understanding. Any time you have the opportunity, we would be happy to hear how things are going. Please feel free to ask if you would like any names or addresses. Between the members of this list there is a lot of Thailand experience, covering all 'schools' of dhamma contacts. Jon --- peterdac4298 wrote: > Hi All > > Just to say that I'm off to Thailand. Right now I'm waiting on the > last leg of my flight at Brunei Int. with about fifteen minutes to > go before assembling at the depature gate, having already completed > sixteen hours from Heathrow. > > I doubt if I'll get onto the 'net for a long time. I'm hoping to > be > taken on by a forest monatery for training. To be taken seriously, > a commitement of five years is the minimum anyone will consider. > However, if an opportunity arrises before then, I'll certainly try > to take advantage of it. > > In the meantime, I have Nina's book to work through and will try to > cover other titles from Zolag. Sorry I did'nt get the chance to > meet up with Alan... > > Tannoy is announcing my flight, so must go. > > Please excuse spelling, no time for spell check. > > Mettacittena > > Peter Da Costa 23512 From: Date: Sat Jul 19, 2003 3:51pm Subject: more on piti Hi Nina, Here is some more on piti. Note that ~Nanamoli translates it as happiness, ~Nanatiloka as joyful interest, and Bodhi as zest and the application is to right concentration, jhana. Vism. IV, 101: Accordingly, (a) this happiness and this bliss are of this jhana, or in this jhana; so in this way this jhana is qualified by the words "with happiness and bliss, [and also born of seclusion]. Or alternatively: (b) the words "happiness and bliss" (piitisukha.m) can be taken as 'the happiness and the bliss' independently, like 'the Law and the Discipline (dhammavinaya)', and so then it can be taken as seclusion-born happiness-and-bliss of this jhana, or in this jhana; so in this way it is the happiness and bliss [rather than the jhana] that are born of seclusion. For just the words 'born of seclusion' can [as at (a)] be taken as qualifying the word 'jhana', so too they can be taken here [as at (b)] as qualifying the expression 'happiness and bliss', and then that [total expression] is predicated of this [jhana]. So it is also correct to call 'happiness-and-bliss born-of-seclusion' a single expression. In the Vibhanga it is stated in the way beginning 'This bliss accompanied by this happiness' (Vibh. 257). The meaning should be regarded in the same way here too. L: So it seems to me the logic of the chain of proximate causes as presented in this book (regardless of the validity of the 'proximate cause' designation) is: joyful interest (piti), born of seclusion from sensual desires, is the proximate cause of concentration, and concentration is the proximate cause of understanding (panna). Would you agree with this? My original question seems to have been what is the proximate cause of piti vis-a-vis the arising of panna and, it seems to me a reasonable answer is 'seclusion from sensual desires'. Do you have any other thoughts on this? Larry 23513 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sat Jul 19, 2003 6:44pm Subject: Update on Bhikkhuni Sangha Dear Group, Just an update of some news stories after the Ordination of Theravada Bhikkhunis on the 28 February 2003 in Sri Lanka in a properly constituted ceremony by Ten Bhikkhunis and a Twelve Bhikkhus. At that time, four Bhikkhunis were given Higher Ordination. They are: Dhammananda Bhikkhuni, a former Thai Professor of Buddhism; Sudhamma Bhikkhuni, a former US lawyer; Gunasari Bhikkhuni, a doctor and Burmese-born US citizen, and Saccavadi Bhikkhuni, a Burmese philosophy graduate. Letter previously forwarded to Dhamma-List by J. Short, written by Bhikkhuni Sudhamma shortly after her Higher Ordination http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhamma-list/message/36585 Bhikkhuni Sudhamma photo and story in American news http://greenvilleonline.com/news/2003/07/14/2003071410087.htm Bhikkuni Dhamananda photo and story about temple in Bangkok http://www.peacecouncil.org/csmonitor.html http://www.nationalcatholicreporter.org/globalpers/gp051403.htm http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Southeast_Asia/DI19Ae02.html http://search.bangkokpost.co.th/bkkpost/2003/mar2003/bp20030308/news/0 8Mar2003_news12.html (You will need to cut and paste this URL) http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/1814195.stm http://www.dailymirror.lk/archives/dmr120202/News/divor.html http://www.geocities.com/suan_nok/khaothai/2546-04/THAS-Bhikkhuni.html metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time 23514 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sat Jul 19, 2003 7:59pm Subject: Re: Bhikkhuni Sangha/Photos of Ordination Dear Group, For anyone interested photos of the actual ordination ceremony can be found under 'update news' at the Thai Bhikkhunis website http://www.thaibhikkhunis.org/englishindex.html metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" 23515 From: buddhatrue Date: Sun Jul 20, 2003 2:43am Subject: Re: Not such a silly question...... --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: ============================= > Your psychological insight in analyzing the sentence form here may be > excellent, but your presupposition of willful intention to mislead is, in my > opinion, unfounded. > Most of the time, the overwhelming majority of people are quite > unaware of what subliminal processes condition the mode of their speech, and while > we can form hypotheses about that, we cannot know for certain, unless our > telepathic abilities are flawless, nor can we easily distinguish subliminal > influence from conscious decision. For friendship's sake, at the very least, it seems > to me that benefit of doubt should be given and suspicions put aside. > > With metta, > Howard Hi Howard, I don't think that I was stating that anyone was trying to be malicious, only misleading…I believe there is a difference between the two. You are quite correct when you state that most people are unaware of the subliminal processes that condition their speech, in this case I was calling attention to those processes. I have noticed that there is a group of people in this group, a sub group if you will, which all use English in a very misleading way; one way is to leave out the verb `to be' so that it appears if actions or decisions aren't done by anyone…that they just appear as if by magic. There are some other uses of the English language and its combination with Pali terms, especially panna and accumulations, which make it appear as if any given person comes about an understanding of the dhamma by magic (or otherworldly impetus) and not by any individual choice or action. I believe that this pattern of speech has developed in this subgroup in order to explain/justify certain beliefs within the group and this speech is also used to argue this point of view with others. When language is manipulated in such a way, either consciously or subconsciously, it is semantic trickery and should be avoided at all costs. I don't believe that my calling attention to this in any way reflects on my feelings of friendship or loyalty/goodwill with any of the members of this group. If they feel that way, they are mistaken. I don`t have any doubt or suspensions to put aside, I have only stated what I have observed. Metta, James ps. I don't consider your observation butting in and I am glad that you have made it. Others might have also been thinking the same thing. 23516 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Jul 20, 2003 6:12am Subject: Re: [dsg] Putting into practice Dave These are good questions and worth considering well. I agree with the helpful answers given already (from memory, by Kom, KenH and Azita, and perhaps others), but would like to add a further thought or two. Dave: "While I can, at an academic/conceptual level "understand" what the theory is, my question is, how are they [cittas] experienced? " Jon: Yes, understanding comes at different levels. Correct understanding at the intellectual/theoretical level is a necessary precondition to understanding at the experiential level. Understanding at the experiential level is described in the texts as seeing dhammas as they actually are. This again comes at different levels. Namas must first be seen as namas and rupas as rupas. For example, seeing-consciousness is the nama that experiences visible object, different from the rupa that is the visible object that is experienced by that consciousness and different from the nama/consciousness that thinks about the visible object that is seen. Dave: "With practice, do you actually discern the different elements? " Jon: According to the teachings, different elements/dhammas can be seen as they really are. This is what is meant by the development of insight. It is important to remember, however, that the development of insight is a gradual, step-by-step process, and that it happens by the development of the right conditions, not by willing it to happen or by following a certain form of 'practice'. The arising and falling away of dhammas (which you mention in your question) is a relatively advanced level of understanding. Before that stage can be reached, there must be the understanding of namas as namas, rupas as rupas. Dave: "Is it possible to separate "sound" from "barking dog"?" Jon: Only insight/panna can experience the element that is sound as sound (audible object), different from the concept of 'barking dog' (a mental object). Again, any understanding that is developed accrues gradually and by its appropriate conditions. This means that any outcome in the form of 'separation' of elements/dhammas, when it occurs, will do so only gradually and spasmodically, i.e., naturally by conditions. When there is the intention of experiencing sound as something different from barking dog, this is not likely to be insight, in my view. Dave: "It's been my impression that many here are not big on meditation. Is there another way to train the mind to break each moment apart into these elementary cittas?" Jon: I would simply say that there is no way other than what is explained in the texts. It is by properly understanding the suttas and applying that understanding that insight is developed. Personally, I don't read the texts as being 'big on meditation' ;-)), but this is something that each person has to resolve for him- or herself by a careful study of the texts. I hope this helps. Jon --- dwlemen wrote: > Everyone, > > I have a question about the Abhidhamma, as discussed here. From > what > I've read here, there are cittas that arise and fall away. While I > can, at an academic/conceptual level "understand" what the theory > is, my question is, how are they experienced? > > With practice, do you actually discern the different elements? Is > it possible to seperate "sound" from "barking dog"? > > It's been my impression that many here are not big on meditation. > Is > there another way to train the mind to break each moment apart into > these elementary cittas? > > As always, I look forward to any and all insight you good people > can throw my way! :-) > > Peace, > > > Dave 23517 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Jul 20, 2003 6:17am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Anicca (Impermanence)/KenH KKT --- phamdluan2000 wrote: > Dear Jon, ... > KKT: The reason is very simple. > > All the monks and laymen > the Buddha taught were not > yet Arahat. Therefore they were > supposed still possessing an ego. > Thus the teachings the Buddha > addressed them should be in > accord with their reality of 'self'. But didn't the Buddha spent his life explaining to people why the perceptions they held were erroneous, especially perceptions about dhammas as being 'self'? If so, then it would not be correct to say that he assumed or accepted any 'reality of self' for the purpose of instruction ;-)). > BTW, do you notice that the > second sermon of the Buddha > that is the Anattalakkhana Sutta > (The Discourse of Not Self) > was delivered to the group > of five ascetics Kondanna > who were already SOTAPANNA ! > > This shows that such a teaching in > this Sutta is not for simple worldlings! > > All the five became Arahat > after hearing this sermon. Thanks for this interesting point. It confirms that the teachings on anatta are deep and difficult to grasp. Jon 23518 From: Date: Sun Jul 20, 2003 3:20am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Not such a silly question...... Hi, James - In a message dated 7/20/03 5:44:26 AM Eastern Daylight Time, buddhatrue@y... writes: > I don't think that I was stating that anyone was trying to be > malicious, only misleading…I believe there is a difference between > the two. You are quite correct when you state that most people are > unaware of the subliminal processes that condition their speech, in > this case I was calling attention to those processes. I have noticed > that there is a group of people in this group, a sub group if you > will, which all use English in a very misleading way; one way is to > leave out the verb `to be' so that it appears if actions or decisions > aren't done by anyone…that they just appear as if by magic. There > are some other uses of the English language and its combination with > Pali terms, especially panna and accumulations, which make it appear > as if any given person comes about an understanding of the dhamma by > magic (or otherworldly impetus) and not by any individual choice or > action. I believe that this pattern of speech has developed in this > subgroup in order to explain/justify certain beliefs within the group > and this speech is also used to argue this point of view with > others. When language is manipulated in such a way, either > consciously or subconsciously, it is semantic trickery and should be > avoided at all costs. I don't believe that my calling attention to > this in any way reflects on my feelings of friendship or > loyalty/goodwill with any of the members of this group. If they feel > that way, they are mistaken. I don`t have any doubt or suspensions > to put aside, I have only stated what I have observed. > > Metta, James > ps. I don't consider your observation butting in and I am glad that > you have made it. Others might have also been thinking the same > thing. > > ============================= A few comments: First of all, I thank you very much for your postscript. I appreciate your taking my comments as remarks made by a friend to a friend. Secondly, I did think that your psychological analysis showed good insight, and I agreed that the language Sarah had used suggested an (unconscious) avoidance. [It turns out, however, that the further clarification she made shows that the language (of "determined on") didn't actually originate with Sarah, but with a commentary.] My third comment pertains to your writing "I don't think that I was stating that anyone was trying to be malicious, only misleading…I believe there is a difference between the two." Yes, there is. Actually, I didn't use the word 'malicious' and didn't mean to suggest that you implied maliciousness but only a conscious intention to mislead, and I pointed out that, without clear evidence to the contrary, it is best to assume that if there is deceptive language adopted, the basis of it is most likely not conscious. [It turns out, in this case, as I already noted, that there wasn't even any self-deception involved, but merely an innocent continuation of awkward terminology used in the translation of a commentary.] With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 23519 From: m. nease Date: Sun Jul 20, 2003 9:11am Subject: Re: [dsg] Kalyana-mitta - Admirable Friends Hi Nina, I'm all for adosa, of course, but remember that the Buddha told his bhikkhus to avoid poisonous snakes (among other things)--sound advice for laypeople, too, I think. Do be careful... mike ----- Original Message ----- From: nina van gorkom To: Sent: Friday, July 18, 2003 9:22 PM Subject: Re: [dsg] Kalyana-mitta - Admirable Friends > I had a > similar experience in Bgk, breakfast with a snake sleeping on a chair beside > me, while I was listening to A. Sujin's radio program. The cook was upset, > he was not so harmless, but I did not mind. 23520 From: m. nease Date: Sun Jul 20, 2003 9:14am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Not such a silly question...... Hi Sarah, ----- Original Message ----- From: Sarah To: Sent: Saturday, July 19, 2003 4:54 AM Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Not such a silly question...... > I've been tongue-tied today, literally, after cutting my tongue on a piece > of glass in restaurant meal. And your husband a lawyer--they must be scared to death...! > "Wise Sumedha, you, from now onward should fulfill the first perfection, > that of Giving. For as a jar of water that has ben overturned discharges > all the water and takes none of it back, even so, recking of neither > wealth nor fame nor wife and children nor any of the limbs, but giving > completely of everything wished for for the prosperity of all supplicants, > while seated at the root of the Tree of Awakening and thinking, 'you will > be a buddha,'" he firmly and resolutely DETERMINED ON THE FIRST > PERFECTION, that of Giving." (PTS, p150) Webster's dictionary gives the synonym for 'resolve' for 'determine'--sounds to me like this is the sense in which it's translated here. mike 23521 From: Date: Sun Jul 20, 2003 10:04am Subject: study question Hi all, I'm ready to go with a study of the third section of Visuddhimagga ("Understanding") but I don't know how to proceed. Ideally I would just type out sections of the text but there is some concern about copyright infringement. Alternatively, I could summarize sections mostly in my own words but that would come out rather clipped and controversial. This doesn't seem satisfactory to me. Any of you teachers have better ideas? Would someone like to contact BPS to seek permission to quote extensively in an internet study group? Larry 23522 From: Jim Anderson Date: Sun Jul 20, 2003 11:14am Subject: Re: [dsg] study question Dear Larry, I don't think copyright should be a problem here as you're only quoting for the sake of study and discussion. Early this year I had the same concern about infringing on PTS copyright in using a research article by K.R. Norman on the word 'apilapati'. I wrote to PTS about this and on Apr. 4th, I received the following response from the General Secretary, Dr. Rupert Gethin: << Sorry for taking so long to respond to this query. In my view quoting from the article in the context of an on-line discussion forum -- even to the extent of quoting the whole chunk on apilapati -- does not infringe PTS copyright and does not require formal permission. The section on apilapati is only about 15% of the whole; the quotation is for legitimate scholarly discussion. If the whole article was in effect published on a website, then that would require formal permission. Hope this helps. >> So, as long as you quote only small portions at a time and you don't publish whole chapters on a website, you should be fine. If you'd like to include the corresponding Pali text beneath the section you type out, you could send me offlist what you have typed and I'll add in the Pali and send back to you before you post to the list. Although we're not doing a translation of the Maha Tika, I could try identifying the words and phrases that are commented on in Vism. and bring to light some comments that are easy to understand and might be of interest. It is just too difficult and time-consuming to translate Dhammapala's formidable work. One suggestion on the presentation might be to go slow, just one small section or paragraph at a time and post the next one when no further discussion has taken place for several days or longer, meaning that the discussion on the current passage seems to have ended and it's time to move on to the next one. Another suggestion might be to first go through XIV.1-32, then the last chapter (XXIII) on the benefits in developing understanding, and then, if there is still interest, continue on from XIV.33 for a detailed study of the aggregates. Best wishes, Jim > Hi all, > > I'm ready to go with a study of the third section of Visuddhimagga > ("Understanding") but I don't know how to proceed. Ideally I would just > type out sections of the text but there is some concern about copyright > infringement. Alternatively, I could summarize sections mostly in my own > words but that would come out rather clipped and controversial. This > doesn't seem satisfactory to me. Any of you teachers have better ideas? > Would someone like to contact BPS to seek permission to quote > extensively in an internet study group? > > Larry 23523 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Jul 20, 2003 11:57am Subject: Re: [dsg] more on piti Dear Larry, You quote about piti and samadhi is in the context of jhana. Secluded from sense desires: we see how many conditions have to be fulfilled to develop jhana. Your quoted passage is not about the development of insight. In another passage it is said concentration is the proximate cause of panna. We have to study: what type of concentration and for whom. Nina. op 20-07-2003 00:51 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > So it seems to me the logic of the chain of proximate causes as > presented in this book (regardless of the validity of the 'proximate > cause' designation) is: joyful interest (piti), born of seclusion from > sensual desires, is the proximate cause of concentration, and > concentration is the proximate cause of understanding (panna). Would you > agree with this? 23524 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Jul 20, 2003 11:57am Subject: Perfections. Epilogue 1. Perfections. Epilogue 1. Epilogue The Defilements of the Perfections. There are defilements of the ten perfections when attachment arises, when there is enjoyment and clinging. When taken separately, the following is explained: ³Taken separately, discriminating thoughts (vikappa) over gifts and recipients are the defilement of the perfection of giving.² Sometimes when we perform deeds of generosity we select the receiver or we have discriminating thoughts about the gifts, by attachment, aversion, fear or delusion. Then the perfection of generosity is defiled, it is not pure. The perfection of generosity should be developed towards all beings, without discrimination. However, if we have discriminating thoughts over gifts and recipients, we should investigate the characteristic of the perfection of generosity. At such moments it is defiled, it is not as pure as it should be. We should have a refined knowledge of the perfections in daily life. They have to be developed life after life in the cycle of birth and death so that they reach fulfilment. We read with regard to the perfection of morality: ³Discriminating thoughts over beings and times are the defilement of the perfection of virtue.² Sometimes we can observe morality towards particular persons, such as people we respect, our parents and so on. We may observe morality by showing respect to them in our gestures and speech, but we cannot do the same to other people. Or we may have discriminating thoughts as to the time of observing morality, we observe it only on Uposatha day [1] or a particular day we select to observe the precepts, and then we may believe that we are perfect in morality, although at other days we do not observe morality. That is the defilement of the perfection of virtue or morality. Footnote: 1. Uposatha day is a day of vigilance, which is the fool-moon day, the new-moon day, and the days of the first and the last moon-quarter. Laypeople usually visit on these days the monasteries and observe five or eight precepts. 23525 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Jul 20, 2003 11:57am Subject: My time with A. Sujin. 6. Dear Kio, you wrote: How skillfully did she bring the technical matter/Abidhamma–if I may say so- into the living/daily practice? Any specific event the you can highlight? My time with A. Sujin. 6. I left Thailand after almost five years, but there were opportunities to return many times and take part in pilgrimages to India and Sri Lanka together with A. Sujin. She taught at the Thai language school to foreigners and several of them took an interest in the teachings. Among them were the late Bhikkhu Dhammadharo and Jonothan Abbot. Later on I also met Sarah who visited me from England. I found discussions on the Dhamma very useful since these helped me to clear up misunderstandings about nama and rupa. I had correspondance with people all over the world and this also helped me to clarify for myself the meaning of satipatthana in daily life. People are always wondering how to act in order to have more understanding. A. Sujin would stress that we should not think of ourselves, and that we become less selfish by paying more attention to the needs of others. This is a simple advice, but it is very basic. We cling to ourselves all the time, but the aim is detachment from the idea of self. If we are always selfish, how can we become detached? On all the India trips she would speak about the perfections which should be developed together with satipatthana. Generosity, metta, patience are essential qualities that should be developed, they are conditions for thinking less of ourselves. I learnt a great deal from my Thai friends on these trips. I noticed how alert they were to help others, even with small gestures. When we are sitting with others at the table for a meal, we can notice whether we take hold of dishes or reach for food only with the idea of wanting things for ourselves, or whether we are also attentive to the needs of others. I began to understand that there are countless moments of thinking of ourselves. I learnt in the situation of daily life that when kusala citta arises, there is a short moment of detachment. However, very shortly after kusala citta we are likely to cling to an idea of ³my kusala². Generosity is only a perfection if we do not expect anything for ourselves, if it leads to less clinging. The aim of the development of perfections is detachment, eradication of defilements. A. Sujin would often remind us of the application of the Dhamma in the situation, reminding us that at each moment there is a new situation. Each moment is conditioned. Whatever we experience through the senses, be it pleasant or unpleasant is conditioned by kamma. Once during a pilgrimage we stayed in a Thai Temple where different rooms were assigned to our group. I received the worst room, without bathroom and full of moquitos. I could hardly sleep and the next day I complained about this. I was used to having Vip treatment in the diplomatic service but A. Sujin helped me to see that unpleasant experiences are conditioned. Nama is nama and rupa is rupa, and it is not important what status of life people have. She asked me whether I was not glad afterwards to have those experiences. I agreed because now I found such experiences a good lesson. She helped us to understand kamma and vipaka in the situation. When people believed that they should try to be in another situation, different from the present one, in order to have more conditions for sati, A. Sujin explained that seeing here is the same as seeing in another place, hearing here is the same as hearing in another place. Seeing is always seeing and hearing is always hearing, they are ultimate realities with their unalterable characteristics. We learnt that the Abhidhamma is not theory, that it can be directly applied, and this is satipatthana. She would often remind us, ³And how about this moment now?² Whatever questions people asked, she would always guide them to the present moment. Phra Dhammadharo said that he was sometimes lost for a long time, without sati. A. Sujin asnwered that this shows that one has to develop right understanding in daily life, that one has to understand one¹s natural life. Then one can see the conditions for different namas and rupas, conditions one has accumulated. One can check for oneself whether there is clinging to nama and rupa. We need the Vinaya, the Suttanta and the Abhidhamma to support the development of right understanding. We should listen, study and consider the Dhamma. Panna cannot suddenly arise. When we have intellectual understanding we can compare this with a plant that has to grow. We see at first buds, and we do not know yet when it will bloom. This will happen when the conditions are right. Nina. 23526 From: connie Date: Sun Jul 20, 2003 0:47pm Subject: re: Not such a silly question...... Hi, James ~ I'm one of those people who doesn't say anything sometimes just because words can be so arbitrary. If we're going to use language at all, how are we going to get away from manipulating it, and thereby, each other? Seems to me that that's the point of communicating, not that manipulation is bad/undesirable in and of itself. Even non-verbal communications, say holding up a flower to transmit some mind-meld or sending a blank e-mail, involve manipulations and it might be a kind of magic that we can think we understand each other at all. Given my nickname 'con' if you or anyone else and I see eye-to-eye, we could be said to be, in some sense, 'confused'. I think rather than saying certain kinds of group-speak are misleading, you're telling me you don't necessarily agree with where they lead. Of course, if we're led to believe in magic, it might be that we didn't follow very well, but that could be my bias against magic. If it turned out that the magic or 'semantic trickery' worked to show me what I'd been meant to see, then it would seem that I'd ended up at the right place after all, whether I accepted with what I'd been shown or not. Is there really 'any given person' to come to an understanding except in a conventionally manipulated sense? Does anything happen by means of 'any individual choice or action' or is anything a combination of events? Not that the phrase can't be a little ambiguous. Is it about a single/individual choice or action by itself or the choice/action of a single living being? Words aren't meant to be the reality itself, just representations of it and while they are relatively set/stable, for the most part, we're not speaking dead languages or jabberwocky. I think to really see what other people are saying sometimes, especially Buddha, who seems to have redefined quite a few words, we have to be willing to let words speak for themselves in ways we're not accustomed to hearing rather than letting our definitions be too confining. I also wonder about doing things subconsciously, but maybe I'm just being picky about 'subconscious' now. Any action involves/is intent, whether awareness is involved or not. Well, not 'any action'. The Ven. Nanavira Thera pointed out that unconscious actions like what takes place with a tree in the wind or a rock rolling down a hill and derailing a train, isn't action but just pure and simple movement. Then said, parenthetically, that in the "latter case it is quaintly called, in legal circles, 'an Act of God' but if there is no God there is no Act, only movement of the rock." peace, connie 23527 From: buddhatrue Date: Sun Jul 20, 2003 2:39pm Subject: Re: Not such a silly question...... --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "connie" wrote: > Hi, James ~ > I'm one of those people who doesn't say anything sometimes just because > words can be so arbitrary. Hi Connie, Yes, I agree that that is often the case. I am becoming more and more like you and I suspect you will be reading less and less from me. Metta, James 23528 From: buddhatrue Date: Sun Jul 20, 2003 2:56pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Not such a silly question...... A few comments: > First of all, I thank you very much for your postscript. I appreciate > your taking my comments as remarks made by a friend to a friend. > Secondly, I did think that your psychological analysis showed good > insight, and I agreed that the language Sarah had used suggested an (unconscious) > avoidance. [It turns out, however, that the further clarification she made > shows that the language (of "determined on") didn't actually originate with > Sarah, but with a commentary.] > My third comment pertains to your writing "I don't think that I was > stating that anyone was trying to be malicious, only misleading…I believe there > is a difference between the two." Yes, there is. Actually, I didn't use the > word 'malicious' and didn't mean to suggest that you implied maliciousness but > only a conscious intention to mislead, and I pointed out that, without clear > evidence to the contrary, it is best to assume that if there is deceptive > language adopted, the basis of it is most likely not conscious. [It turns out, in > this case, as I already noted, that there wasn't even any self- deception > involved, but merely an innocent continuation of awkward terminology used in the > translation of a commentary.] > > With metta, > Howard Hi Howard, The use of language is very important. As we witness nowadays, its use can lead to war, and consequent multiple investigations, and even consequent suicide. You have an interesting point about the influence of the commentaries, (which Sarah wasn't translating or quoting…they simply influenced her word choice), because the stilted language I have witnessed have all been in those who study the commentaries extensively. Actually, A. Sujin, from my understanding, also bases most of her teachings on the commentaries. It could actually be that what I few as an odd interpretation of the dhamma arises from the odd syntax found in the commentaries. Language does greatly influence, if not actually form, thought. It would be interesting to investigate/study this apparent link. But again, I have no idea what you are meaning from this giving someone the benefit of the doubt business; I have already explained why I bring this subject up. It has nothing to do with doubting intentions. Metta, James 23529 From: Date: Sun Jul 20, 2003 3:15pm Subject: Re: [dsg] more on piti Hi Nina, It makes sense to me that the concentration that is the proximate cause of insight is the same concentration that has piti as proximate cause, in other words the concentration of jhana. We can wait and see if Buddhaghosa has a clarifying remark but I'm not aware of two different concentrations. Do you have something else in mind as a proximate cause to the concentration that is the proximate cause of insight? I have a few more thoughts on this. It seems that a proximate cause is a citta or cetasika that immediately precedes another citta or cetaska in a process and a proximate cause is not necessarily a sufficient cause. In other words, concentration may not necessarily be followed by insight but if there is insight, it was preceded by concentration. This, of course, could simply be a matter of mind moments or it could be a more extensive process. Also "cause" is a little misleading if it makes one think that concentration manufactures insight. That isn't what is meant. In some cases what is considered to be proximate varies from commentator to commentator and sometimes more than one proximate cause is given. I made a mistake concerning the meaning of 'born of seclusion' as attributed to piti. I said it was seclusion from sensuous desires but it is actually seclusion from all the hindrances: sensuous desire, ill-will, sloth and torpor, restlessness and remorse, and sceptical doubt. It occurred to me that simply the arising of an objective identification would accomplish this. In other words 'mindfulness'. I see the process as follows: Extreme aversion, for example, arises. Mindfulness recognizes it. That objectivity becomes evident as being secluded from hindrances simply because it is objective and joyful interest (piti) is born. It isn't clear whether that interest is interest in the seclusion or in the principle object, extreme aversion. Probably they are mixed together so that interest leads to a non-wandering one-pointed grasping of the principle object, extreme aversion. This leads, as if by magic, to the insight that this aversion is impermanent, dukkha, or not self. Coincidentally this is very close to being a full circle returning to the the objectivity that initiated the process. Larry 23530 From: Date: Sun Jul 20, 2003 3:39pm Subject: Re: [dsg] study question Hi Jim, Thanks for your suggestions. They all seem reasonable to me but I will wait a couple of days to see if there is more input before proceeding. I'm a little sceptical about handling pali transmissions from you. It seems like there is a great potential for things getting lost and confused since I don't know hardly any pali. Maybe you, Sarah, Nina, and Kom could put your heads together and come up with the best way to do this. Larry 23531 From: Andrew Date: Sun Jul 20, 2003 4:13pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Not such a silly question...... --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > > > Most of the time, the overwhelming majority of people are quite > > unaware of what subliminal processes condition the mode of their speech, and > > while > > we can form hypotheses about that, we cannot know for certain, unless our > > telepathic abilities are flawless, nor can we easily distinguish subliminal > > influence from conscious decision. Dear Howard and all I have been following this thread and thank you for raising a very interesting angle. I don't think the full significance of your comments above have been acknowledged and so I will attempt to do so now. Last year, as part of a Masters thesis in ethics, I extensively researched the use of psychology in advertising. As a result, I came to the view that believing humans to be conscious volitional beings is inaccurate and misleading. Let me give you but one example. One advertising technique is known as "positioning something as a given". In an experiment, people were shown a video of a car accident. They were then separately asked a series of questions about what they had seen. One question was "How far did the blue car go past the stop sign?" In actual fact, there was no stop sign. But merely putting that information in the question as a "given" was enough to make most people insist that they had seen a stop sign. When this technique is used in advertisements, people can be prompted/motivated to buy something and if asked about it, they would not be able to accurately describe their volition. This makes me think. In Dhamma, we struggle with the thought of "will but no willer" and this leads to all sorts of arguments about "practice". That there is will, we all agree. But will can only be experienced. Start to describe it (by explaining and justifying decisions and so on) and immediately you head into falsehood and deception. Worldlings with dust in their eyes DON'T REALLY KNOW why action occurs. That has to be understood because any action without that understanding is chained to the samsaric illusion of "self" - an illusion we all agree Buddha refuted on an absolute level. Metta, Andrew 23532 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Jul 20, 2003 7:49pm Subject: Re: [dsg] more on piti Larry --- LBIDD@w... wrote: > Hi Nina, ... > I made a mistake concerning the meaning of 'born of seclusion' as > attributed to piti. I said it was seclusion from sensuous desires > but it > is actually seclusion from all the hindrances: sensuous desire, > ill-will, sloth and torpor, restlessness and remorse, and sceptical > doubt. It occurred to me that simply the arising of an objective > identification would accomplish this. In other words 'mindfulness'. I believe that mindfulness could be exactly what is meant by 'born of seclusion'. In a similar vein, I think that references to 'guarding the door-ways' are also references to mindfulness. Jon 23533 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Jul 20, 2003 9:10pm Subject: Perfections. Epilogue 2 Perfections. Epilogue 2 We read further on in the Commentary to the ³Basket of conduct² about the defilement of the other perfections as follows: ³Discriminating thoughts of delight in sense pleasures and existence, and of discontent with their pacification, are the defilement of the perfection of renunciation. Discriminating thoughts of "I" and "mine" are the defilement of the perfection of wisdom...² Even when we think in that way of paññå, it is already defiled, we have attachment to the thought of ³my paññå². We read further on about the defilement of the perfections: ³Discriminating thoughts leaning to listlessness and restlessness, of the perfection of energy; discriminating thoughts of oneself and others, of the perfection of patience; discriminating thoughts of avowing to have seen what was not seen, etc., of the perfection of truthfulness; discriminating thoughts perceiving flaws in the requisites of enlightenment and virtues in their opposites, of the perfection of determination; discriminating thoughts confusing what is harmful with what is beneficial, of the perfection of loving-kindness; and discriminating thoughts over the desirable and undesirable, of the perfection of equanimity. Thus the defilements should be understood.² At times we can have equanimity with regard to the undesirable but not with regard to the desirable. The more we understand the Dhamma in detail, the more will we be inclined to practise the Dhamma. Formerly we may have thought that we could not practise the perfections, that they were beyond our reach. However, if we only see the benefit of each of the perfections, and if we gradually develop them, they will eventually become accomplished. We can verify for ourselves that listening to the Dhamma and studying it is of the utmost benefit. It will enable us to apply the Dhamma in our daily lives, to develop satipatthåna together with all the perfections. ***** (End of the series. The perfections will be put on Zolag) 23534 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Jul 20, 2003 9:10pm Subject: FW: Co. to Mahaaraahulovaadasutta, B series, no. 1. Dear Sarah and all, English only is at the end for those who do not follow Pali. I eliminated the word list, perhaps too technical. I wrote a short intro: This commentary gives us an idea of village life in olden times. People gave expression to their devotion with their decorations, the golden statues and festoonwork moved along by machinery (yanta). We learn about colours, the natural coloring, like coloring from red lead. About putting milk in a conch. About trees I did not know of before, like the coral tree. We should think of the kusala cittas of the people of old who made such elaborate decorations. The Commentary gives very impressive similes about the Buddha and Rahula walking behind as you will see soon. Against the background of all this gold glittering, gold dusting, festoonwork, the similes come to life. You will also see that the Buddha is compared to an elephant, to a lion, a tiger, a swan, and Rahula is compared to the young animal, going behind. The animals used in these similes were considered as majestic, awe-inspiring, and very beautiful. The young animal was also very elegant but only at the beginning of its growth and development. Co. to Mahaaraahulovaadasutta, B series, no. 1. Relevant sutta passage: atha kho bhagavaa pubba.nhasamaya.m nivaasetvaa pattaciivaramaadaaya saavatthi.m pi.n.daaya paavisi. aayasmaapi kho raahulo pubba.nhasamaya.m nivaasetvaa pattaciivaramaadaaya bhagavanta.m pi.t.thito pi.t.thito anubandhi. Then, when it was morning, the Blessed One dressed and, taking his bowl and outer robe, entered Savatthi for alms. The venerable Rahula, too, dressed and, taking his bowl and outer robe, followed close behind the Blessed One. Commentary: eva.m me sutanti mahaaraahulovaadasutta.m. As to the words, thus have I heard, this is the Great Discourse to the venerable Rahula. tattha pi.t.thito pi.t.thito anubandhiiti dassana.m avijahitvaa gamana.m abbocchinna.m katvaa As to the words, there he followed closely behind, this means, without leaving him out of sight, and leaving no distance in between, pacchato pacchato iriyaapathaanubandhanena anubandhi. he followed behind in each manner of deportment. tadaa hi bhagavaa pade pada.m nikkhipanto vilaasitagamanena * purato purato gacchati, Then, the Exalted One, placing his feet, step by step, in a splendid manner, walked in front, raahulatthero dasabalassa padaanupadiko hutvaa pacchato pacchato. whereas the venerable Rahulo followed close behind the ³Person with the Ten Powers². English: As to the words, thus have I heard, this is the Great Discourse to the venerable Rahula. As to the words, there he followed closely behind, this means, without leaving him out of sight, and leaving no distance in between, he followed behind in each manner of deportment. Then, the Exalted One putting his feet down, step by step, in a splendid manner, walked in front, whereas the venerable Rahulo followed close behind the ³Person with the Ten Powers². * The subcommentary explains: Nina. 23535 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Jul 20, 2003 9:10pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Putting into practice Dear Jon, Kom and all, See below op 20-07-2003 15:12 schreef Jonothan Abbott op jonoabb@y...: > Jon: Only insight/panna can experience the element that is sound as > sound (audible object), different from the concept of 'barking dog' > (a mental object). > > Again, any understanding that is developed accrues gradually and by > its appropriate conditions. This means that any outcome in the form > of 'separation' of elements/dhammas, when it occurs, will do so only > gradually and spasmodically, i.e., naturally by conditions. > > When there is the intention of experiencing sound as something > different from barking dog, this is not likely to be insight, in my > view. N: This is an important point, and I appreciate the reminder. It is a small borderline between effort without the idea of self, right effort, effort to study realities, and effort with an idea of "I do it". Nobody else can tell us when there is clinging and when there is not. Both kinds arise, and as you would say, it does not matter. How could it be otherwise, we have not eradicated the idea of self. So long as we realize the different kinds of efforts and intentions. I also would like very much to know what Kom thinks about this. P.S. Just going off for a few days of hiking. Nina. 23536 From: buddhatrue Date: Sun Jul 20, 2003 11:07pm Subject: Re: Not such a silly question...... --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Andrew" wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > > > > > Most of the time, the overwhelming majority of people are quite > > > unaware of what subliminal processes condition the mode of their > speech, and > > > while > > > we can form hypotheses about that, we cannot know for certain, > unless our > > > telepathic abilities are flawless, nor can we easily distinguish > subliminal > > > influence from conscious decision. > > Dear Howard and all > I have been following this thread and thank you for raising a very > interesting angle. I don't think the full significance of your > comments above have been acknowledged and so I will attempt to do so > now. Last year, as part of a Masters thesis in ethics, I extensively > researched the use of psychology in advertising. As a result, I came > to the view that believing humans to be conscious volitional beings is > inaccurate and misleading. Hi Andrew, I don't see how the example you cite is clear proof that people don't have any kind of volition; it only proves that people are subject to the power of suggestion, which isn`t an absolute (I`m sure that not everyone claimed there was a stop sign…what were the statistics?). The Buddha didn't teach that people don't have volition, he only taught that they don't have a permanent, lasting essence (anatta). You, and others, have come to the conclusion that that means there is no volition…there is only nama and rupa. But you see, that is a fallacy in thinking. If you, or anyone, believes that there is no volition, then there is nothing else also. Everything must be weighed by the same standards. This is expressed in the Heart Sutra, a Mahayana Sutta but related nonetheless: "…Form is emptiness; emptiness also is form. Emptiness is no other than form; form is no other than emptiness. In the same way, feeling, perception, formation, and consciousness are emptiness. Thus, Shariputra, all dharmas are emptiness. There are no characteristics. There is no birth and no cessation. There is no impurity and no purity. There is no decrease and no increase. Therefore, Shariputra, in emptiness, there is no form, no feeling, no perception, no formation, no consciousness; no eye, no ear, no nose, no tongue, no body, no mind; no appearance, no sound, no smell, no taste, no touch, no dharmas, no eye dhatu up to no mind dhatu, no dhatu of dharmas, no mind consciousness dhatu; no ignorance, no end of ignorance up to no old age and death, no end of old age and death; no suffering, no origin of suffering, no cessation of suffering, no path, no wisdom, no attainment, and no non-attainment…" http://members.ozemail.com.au/~mooncharts/heartsutra/english.html You can't have it both ways; if there are namas and rupas, there is volition; if there is no volition, then there are no namas and rupas… there is nothing. Metta, James 23537 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Sun Jul 20, 2003 11:26pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Putting into practice Hi Nina & Jon, > -----Original Message----- > From: nina van gorkom [mailto:nilo@e...] > Sent: Sunday, July 20, 2003 9:10 PM > To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com > Subject: Re: [dsg] Putting into practice > > > > > When there is the intention of experiencing > sound as something > > different from barking dog, this is not likely > to be insight, in my > > view. > N: This is an important point, and I appreciate > the reminder. It is a small > borderline between effort without the idea of > self, right effort, effort to > study realities, and effort with an idea of "I do > it". Nobody else can tell > us when there is clinging and when there is not. > Both kinds arise, and as > you would say, it does not matter. How could it > be otherwise, we have not > eradicated the idea of self. So long as we > realize the different kinds of > efforts and intentions. I also would like very > much to know what Kom thinks > about this. > P.S. Just going off for a few days of hiking. > Nina. > I don't think I can put it any better than Jon already did. I think when there is an intention, strong enough to be noticeable, to "notice" or "catch" something, it is most likely the attachment to knowing the dhammas, to making progress, to having sati, to being someone who has sati, and all the other various shades of attachment more than insights. I think it is normal to have such attachments, (because we are still full of self) which is why is so important to carefully learn the differences between sati and the samudhaya, and to realize that attachment will lead one yet to more rebirths rather than getting one out of it. Does something one does/thinks of leads to more attachment? That is not the teaching of the Buddha. kom 23538 From: Sarah Date: Sun Jul 20, 2003 11:46pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Anicca (Impermanence)/KenH Hi KKT (& Jon), Good to read your comments, KKT. You may mean that ‘they were still possessing an illusion of an ego’. > > KKT: The reason is very simple. > > > > All the monks and laymen > > the Buddha taught were not > > yet Arahat. Therefore they were > > supposed still possessing an ego. > > Thus the teachings the Buddha > > addressed them should be in > > accord with their reality of 'self'. > Jon:> But didn't the Buddha spent his life explaining to people why the > perceptions they held were erroneous, especially perceptions about > dhammas as being 'self'? If so, then it would not be correct to say > that he assumed or accepted any 'reality of self' for the purpose of > instruction ;-)). ..... THE THREE CHARACTERISTICS. Translated from the Anguttara-Nikâya (iii.1341). Whether Buddhas arise, O priests, or whether Buddhas do not arise, it remains a fact and the fixed and necessary constitution of being, that all its constituents are transitory. This fact a Buddha discovers and masters, and when he has discovered and mastered it, he announces, teaches, publishes, proclaims, discloses, minutely explains, and makes it clear, that all the constituents of being are transitory. Whether Buddhas arise, O priests, or whether Buddhas do not arise, it remains a fact and the fixed and necessary constitution of being, that all its constituents are misery. This fact a Buddha discovers and masters, and when he has discovered and mastered it, he announces, teaches, publishes, proclaims, discloses, minutely explains, and makes it clear, that all the constituents of being are misery. Whether Buddhas arise, O priests, or whether Buddhas do not arise, it remains a fact and the fixed and necessary constitution of being, that all its elements are lacking in an Ego. This fact a Buddha discovers and masters, and when he has discovered and mastered it, he announces, teaches, publishes, proclaims, discloses, minutely explains, and makes it clear, that all the elements of being are lacking in an Ego. ***** Metta, Sarah ====== 23539 From: Sarah Date: Mon Jul 21, 2003 0:04am Subject: Searching for exits (was Re: Anicca (Impermanence)/KenH) Hi Howard, Just a little more on your other post to me: --- upasaka@a... wrote: > ------------------------------------------------------ > Howard: > My point was that we begin to "search for the exit" because we > are > dissatisfied with our dissatisfaction. The prisoner who thinks the > accomodations, > food,and company are just fine, won't look for the exit. In fact,he > won't > even walk through an open cell door. > The path is a bootstrap operation. To add yet one more metaphor, > we > must use what is available in the pit to pull ourselves out of the pit. ..... S: I understand the points and I agree that this is how it seems. However, I think that dissatisfaction with one’s lot leads to more dissatisfaction and acceptance and understanding leads to more acceptance and understanding. Now it may well be that the dissatisfaction is the necessary condition to get out of the prison cell, but I think the equanimity and clarity of comprehension (along with the other noble factors)are what will lead to the realisation of the 4 Noble Truths. There is no ‘right dissatisfaction’ after all;-) ..... > ------------------------------------------------ > Howard: > But the chicks must peck at that shell. The Buddha began his > quest > when he realized that the of a worldling is unsatisfactory. In > particular, *he* > was dissatisfied and went on his quest to *escape* dukkha. He was > motivated by > desire. > ------------------------------------------------ S: No ‘right desire’ either;-) Seriously,I think we just have to be honestly mindful of the present cittas to know whether they are skilful or not. ..... > --------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Well, I think that the Buddha's teachings on guarding the senses > and > on right effort do advocate the use of volitional action and the > exercise of > control (or, better, influence). > ----------------------------------------------------- S: I think we all agree that there must be right effort at these times and there is intention or volition at every moment. When we have the idea of making an effort to guard the senses, I think there are many factors and moments of consciousness involved and only sati can be aware of whether these are wholesome or not. When I cut my tongue on Saturday, I was trying to keep quiet and calm so as not to cause unnecessary distress to others. On the other hand, I was concerned about how I’d be seen by other people and was not enjoying the ‘fussing’ (though I appreciated all the concern). Someone might say I was ‘self-controlled’, but in truth there were just the differnent experiences through the sense-doors, the aversion and thinking as a result of the experiences and so on with ever-changing cittas accompanied by intention and effort performing their tasks. What we’d consider as self-control would mostly be moments of thinking (good and bad) conditioning the speech and bodily actions. All of these were conditioned by my tendencies, the vipaka experienced and many other conditions and factors, such as the situation and people around me. ..... > ------------------------------------------------------ > Howard: > If our desire for results fixates us on the goal rather than > directing > us to the conditions needed to achieve that goal, such goal-orientation > is, > of course, harmful. But there is a goal, and there needs to be. If there > were > no goal, there would be no walking of the path to the goal. > ------------------------------------------------------ S: Again, I think we need to just be honest and sincere about the present desires rather than to try and justify them -- as I find it easy to do -- as being very fine because they relate to nibbana or the end of suffering or wisdom or awareness. ..... > ============================== H:> Thank you for your reply, Sarah. It's always a pleasure chatting > with > you. (Sorry to disagree so often! ;-) ..... S: The disagreeing is fine and healthy. We only discuss what we disagree on after all and not the main aspects we both agree on;-) Metta, Sarah ====== 23540 From: Sarah Date: Mon Jul 21, 2003 0:34am Subject: Re: [dsg] study question Hi Larry, (Jim & All), --- LBIDD@w... wrote: > Hi Jim, > > Thanks for your suggestions. They all seem reasonable to me but I will > wait a couple of days to see if there is more input before proceeding. .... I agree with all Jim’s points. I also think it’s good to go slow (so as not to lose his assistance for a start). Checking a Pali phrase carefully or even just a word in context can be time-consuming. Perhaps we can ask him or Nina to wave a flag or shout anytime you’re going too fast;-) I think the simplest thing for you, Jim and everyone would be if you proceed as normal with your installments in English only and Jim can ‘reply’ to them to add the Pali below, adding any key phrases and translations from the Tika when required. It won’t matter if there’s a gap or a day or two or few before your installment and his ‘reply’ - it’ll be good for us all to consider and even discuss without the extra assistance;-) ..... > I'm a little sceptical about handling pali transmissions from you. It > seems like there is a great potential for things getting lost and > confused since I don't know hardly any pali. Maybe you, Sarah, Nina, and > Kom could put your heads together and come up with the best way to do > this. .... My suggestion would let you off the hook, but anyway is OK for me. I think it’s helpful to have the full extract, but if you’d like to give your own suggested summary and understanding after each one, that makes a good start for any discussion...... James will be watching for any stilted language;-) On the copyright issue (and talking to my in-house intellectual property expert;-)), as Jim said, short extracts from the published text in a discussion forum should be no problem at all. Before, B.Bodhi gave us permission to use the entire CMA on DSG in this way, but as a courtesy, I will write him a note anyway in the next couple of weeks (he has remained president of BPS). In the meantime, I think you may as well proceed. Many thanks for your work and regular input. I greatly appreciated and supported Christine’s kind comments in this regard. Metta, Sarah ====== 23541 From: Andrew Date: Mon Jul 21, 2003 2:56am Subject: Re: Not such a silly question...... --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: > Hi Andrew, > > I don't see how the example you cite is clear proof that people don't > have any kind of volition; it only proves that people are subject to > the power of suggestion, which isn`t an absolute (I`m sure that not > everyone claimed there was a stop sign?what were the statistics?). > > The Buddha didn't teach that people don't have volition, he only > taught that they don't have a permanent, lasting essence (anatta). > You, and others, have come to the conclusion that that means there is > no volition?there is only nama and rupa. But you see, that is a > fallacy in thinking. If you, or anyone, believes that there is no > volition, then there is nothing else also. Everything must be > weighed by the same standards. This is expressed in the Heart Sutra, > a Mahayana Sutta but related nonetheless: > > "?Form is emptiness; emptiness also is form. Emptiness is no other > than form; form is no other than emptiness. In the same way, feeling, > perception, formation, and consciousness are emptiness. Thus, > Shariputra, all dharmas are emptiness. There are no characteristics. > There is no birth and no cessation. There is no impurity and no > purity. There is no decrease and no increase. Therefore, Shariputra, > in emptiness, there is no form, no feeling, no perception, no > formation, no consciousness; no eye, no ear, no nose, no tongue, no > body, no mind; no appearance, no sound, no smell, no taste, no touch, > no dharmas, no eye dhatu up to no mind dhatu, no dhatu of dharmas, no > mind consciousness dhatu; no ignorance, no end of ignorance up to no > old age and death, no end of old age and death; no suffering, no > origin of suffering, no cessation of suffering, no path, no wisdom, > no attainment, and no non-attainment?" > http://members.ozemail.com.au/~mooncharts/heartsutra/english.html > > You can't have it both ways; if there are namas and rupas, there is > volition; if there is no volition, then there are no namas and rupas? > there is nothing. > > Metta, James Hello James Thanks for your comments and the Heart Sutra reference. I was interested to see its reference to "dharmas" as I had been under the impression that this type of analysis might have been limited to Abhidhamma - clearly not the case. Unfortunately, I think our posts were like two ships passing in the night. I don't think they really connected. As a result, I haven't found your comments as useful as some in your other posts (yet, that is). Let me clarify a few things. First of all, I don't deny the existence of will or volition. By this, I mean the universal mental factor of "cetana". As I said at the end of my post, I think we all agree that volition exists. Those into Abhidhamma classify cetana as nama. So any disagreement isn't about whether volition exists or not. I might be wrong about this but I think the real issue is about how volition sits with "no self". You give me the impression you are saying that we sit in the driver's seat and direct our course. I have very serious doubts about the correctness of this. There are so many factors, many outside the conscious realm, affecting us that I think it isn't possible for a worldling like myself to really know why actions take place. Whenever I think about such things, I am immediately conceptualising about the past or future and relying entirely upon those conscious things I was able to identify. This is "educated guessing" at most, "kidding myself" at worst. And it's something I've done since I first became interested in Buddhism in the 1980s. I never did manage to control my thoughts or prune them into shape. This has led me to my present "re-look" at the no-self teaching (which the religious scholars tell me is the main teaching differentiating Dhamma from its contemporary rivals). James, I would be very interested in hearing you on this. Instead of focussing on "if there is no volition, there is nothing", how am I to deal with "there IS volition but no permanent lasting essence to will"? How is the course being set if there is change at every moment? metta, Andrew 23542 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Mon Jul 21, 2003 6:07am Subject: Re: [dsg] Putting into practice Hi Nina, Could you explain what an idea of self would be? Peace, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > Dear Jon, Kom and all, > See below > op 20-07-2003 15:12 schreef Jonothan Abbott op jonoabb@y...: > > > Jon: Only insight/panna can experience the element that is sound as > > sound (audible object), different from the concept of 'barking dog' > > (a mental object). > > > > Again, any understanding that is developed accrues gradually and by > > its appropriate conditions. This means that any outcome in the form > > of 'separation' of elements/dhammas, when it occurs, will do so only > > gradually and spasmodically, i.e., naturally by conditions. > > > > When there is the intention of experiencing sound as something > > different from barking dog, this is not likely to be insight, in my > > view. > N: This is an important point, and I appreciate the reminder. It is a small > borderline between effort without the idea of self, right effort, effort to > study realities, and effort with an idea of "I do it". Nobody else can tell > us when there is clinging and when there is not. Both kinds arise, and as > you would say, it does not matter. How could it be otherwise, we have not > eradicated the idea of self. So long as we realize the different kinds of > efforts and intentions. I also would like very much to know what Kom thinks > about this. > P.S. Just going off for a few days of hiking. > Nina. 23543 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Mon Jul 21, 2003 7:07am Subject: Re: Not such a silly question...... Hi Andrew and James, The Buddha neither taught that people don't have a permanent, lasting essence, nor did he teach that people do have a permanent, lasting essence. The Buddha neither taught that there is no self, nor did he teach that there is a self. The Buddha taught that each and every aggregate is not self. In other words, each and every aggregate is to be seen as it actually is with right discernment thus: "This is not mine. This I am not. This is not my self." The question "Why do actions take place?" can be rephrased as "What are the causes for the origination of actions?" To that questions, the Buddha provides the answers in Anguttara Nikaya III.33 Nidana Sutta Causes http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an03-033.html Your comments are appreciated. Peace, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Andrew" wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" > wrote: > > > Hi Andrew, [snip] > > The Buddha didn't teach that people don't have volition, he only > > taught that they don't have a permanent, lasting essence (anatta). [snip] > > > > Metta, James > > Hello James [snip] > I might be wrong about this but I think the real issue is about how > volition sits with "no self". You give me the impression you are > saying that we sit in the driver's seat and direct our course. I have > very serious doubts about the correctness of this. There are so many > factors, many outside the conscious realm, affecting us that I think > it isn't possible for a worldling like myself to really know why > actions take place. Whenever I think about such things, I am > immediately conceptualising about the past or future and relying > entirely upon those conscious things I was able to identify. This is > "educated guessing" at most, "kidding myself" at worst. And it's > something I've done since I first became interested in Buddhism in the > 1980s. I never did manage to control my thoughts or prune them into > shape. This has led me to my present "re-look" at the no-self > teaching (which the religious scholars tell me is the main teaching > differentiating Dhamma from its contemporary rivals). > James, I would be very interested in hearing you on this. Instead of > focussing on "if there is no volition, there is nothing", how am I to > deal with "there IS volition but no permanent lasting essence to > will"? How is the course being set if there is change at every moment? > metta, Andrew 23544 From: Jim Anderson Date: Mon Jul 21, 2003 7:07am Subject: Re: [dsg] study question Dear Sarah (and Larry), Welcome back from your holidays! > I think the simplest thing for you, Jim and everyone would be if you > proceed as normal with your installments in English only and Jim can > 'reply' to them to add the Pali below, adding any key phrases and > translations from the Tika when required. It won't matter if there's a gap > or a day or two or few before your installment and his 'reply' - it'll be > good for us all to consider and even discuss without the extra > assistance;-) Thanks, I agree that this would certainly be a much better and simpler way. I can respond to Larry's English installments by adding the corresponding Pali along with some of the comments from the Maha Tika and also add some comments of my own. It sounds like an interesting study project and I'm looking forward to it. I was interested in helping out with the Way of Mindfulness study project in the beginning but it quickly got a way ahead of me and I just couldn't keep up with it as I was more interested in studying it in Pali and this really slows things down. On another subject, I was wondering if you or anyone else has ever come across an English translation of the following two passages from these commentaries: Suttanipaata-a.t.thakathaa, pp. 46-52 on the Khaggavisaa.nasutta. Theragaathaa-a.t.thakathaa, pp. 1-19 on the introductory verses. The passages contain a lot of valuable information about mahaabodhisattas, paccekabodhisattas, and saavakabodhisattas. And there is a conversation between the Buddha and Ananda in the SnA passage about the time it takes for the first two types to become a buddha. Best wishes. Jim 23545 From: buddhatrue Date: Mon Jul 21, 2003 7:38am Subject: Re: Not such a silly question...... --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Andrew" wrote: > Hello James > Thanks for your comments and the Heart Sutra reference. I was > interested to see its reference to "dharmas" as I had been under the > impression that this type of analysis might have been limited to > Abhidhamma - clearly not the case. > Unfortunately, I think our posts were like two ships passing in the > night. I don't think they really connected. As a result, I haven't > found your comments as useful as some in your other posts (yet, that > is). Let me clarify a few things. First of all, I don't deny the > existence of will or volition. By this, I mean the universal mental > factor of "cetana". As I said at the end of my post, I think we all > agree that volition exists. Those into Abhidhamma classify cetana as > nama. So any disagreement isn't about whether volition exists or not. > I might be wrong about this but I think the real issue is about how > volition sits with "no self". You give me the impression you are > saying that we sit in the driver's seat and direct our course. I have > very serious doubts about the correctness of this. There are so many > factors, many outside the conscious realm, affecting us that I think > it isn't possible for a worldling like myself to really know why > actions take place. Whenever I think about such things, I am > immediately conceptualising about the past or future and relying > entirely upon those conscious things I was able to identify. This is > "educated guessing" at most, "kidding myself" at worst. And it's > something I've done since I first became interested in Buddhism in the > 1980s. I never did manage to control my thoughts or prune them into > shape. This has led me to my present "re-look" at the no-self > teaching (which the religious scholars tell me is the main teaching > differentiating Dhamma from its contemporary rivals). > James, I would be very interested in hearing you on this. Instead of > focussing on "if there is no volition, there is nothing", how am I to > deal with "there IS volition but no permanent lasting essence to > will"? How is the course being set if there is change at every moment? > metta, Andrew Hi Andrew, I suppose the Heart Sutra was written after the Abhidhamma (or concurrently since the Abhidhamma is so long), so it does contain references to dhammas. It also contains references to dhatus which are kinda like the equivalent of dhammas but come from the suttas. I guess the composer wanted to cover all the bases! ;-) Hmmm…I am sorry that my post failed to have contact with your post, in your estimation. I guess I am a little fuzzy on exactly what your position is. At first you state that there is no will (in relation to the advertising research) and then you state that we all agree that there is will (and I have read posts contrary to that from some); then you summarize by stating that `the all' is so vast and complicated that a `worldling' couldn't possibly understand it all and that it is difficult to determine how `free will' works. Hmmmm… frankly, I am still not sure what your position is. I went with what seemed the clearer and first stated position and ran with it! ;-). I think that perhaps that post was meant more for others rather than you, that is why it missed its mark. So, you want to know what I believe as to how free will works with anatta. Here is my answer: I find it erroneous to think that free will requires a permanent essence. Who came up with that rule? That thinking is egocentric itself because it supposes that only a self can make choices or do actions. Not true. First, when looking at anatta we have to define what is the self? The idea of self is that we are distinct individuals who are defined by physical appearance, personal history, mental traits, habits, tastes, etc., the Buddha taught that this is illusion. This gross sense of self needs to be refined into a more wholesome sense of self, then this wholesome sense of self is abandoned for a completely virtuous self (Buddhahood), then this virtuous self is completely abandoned for no- self at all at death (Parinibbana). Free will exists because there is karma, it has nothing to do with self or non-self. Free will, broken down, is the conglomeration of certain energies directly affecting other energies; this affectation can be as simple as deciding to eat a cookie to making oneself levitate and fly, it depends on the conglomeration of energy. Energies affect other energies all the time (rain, fire, gravity, etc.) but certain energies come together, form sentient life forms who can choose when and how to affect other energies, and therefore build the false sense of self. It isn't until this 'renegade' energy sees itself for what it is that it will cease to manifest in suffering forms. This is my estimation; if you don't agree, okay. Metta, James 23546 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Jul 21, 2003 7:39am Subject: RE: [dsg] Putting into practice Nina and Kom I agree with what Kom says here, and would only add that even if there were a *wholesome* intention for there to be awareness of dhammas, it still doesn't mean that awareness of dhammas would follow. For one who truly appreciates the value in developing awareness (or any other kind of kusala), this understanding gives all the motivation that is needed (called samvega/sense of urgency), without the need for any specific intention. As I see it, when there is the specific intention to 'be more patient/tolerant', 'show more generosity', 'have more awareness', 'study realties' or the like, it is not the same as an opportunity that occurs unbidden. Jon PS Nina, wishing you and L. happy days' walking. --- Kom Tukovinit wrote: > Hi Nina & Jon, ... > I think when there is an intention, strong enough to be > noticeable, to "notice" or "catch" something, it is most > likely the attachment to knowing the dhammas, to making > progress, to having sati, to being someone who has sati, and > all the other various shades of attachment more than > insights. I think it is normal to have such attachments, > (because we are still full of self) which is why is so > important to carefully learn the differences between sati > and the samudhaya, and to realize that attachment will lead > one yet to more rebirths rather than getting one out of it. > Does something one does/thinks of leads to more attachment? > That is not the teaching of the Buddha. > > kom 23547 From: robmoult Date: Mon Jul 21, 2003 8:23am Subject: Apologies (and Godel) Hi All, Sorry for being silent for so long. If anybody has been waiting weeks (or months) for a reply from me, please let me know. I am currently in the Howard Hotel in Taipei and the name of the hotel reminded me of my friend in the Dhamma and prompted me to re- link with the DSG. Yesterday, as I got my luggage out of the overhead compartment on the plane, I noticed an old Thai monk out of the corner of my eye. The monk was smiling (in my opinion, the best monks smile a lot). The instant of seeing that monk started a sequence of thoughts (gotta get back to the practice, not just the theory...). As I progressed to the immigration checkpoint, I found myself recalling the Patimokkha and trying to walk like a monk (keeping my gaze not more than one plow-length ahead of me). I was aware of the regret that I did not have a chance to talk to the monk. I am not so egotistical to believe that the world revolves around me and that my past has kamma arranged all these things to arise for me to experience. There are other forces at work (niyama) as well. Would you agree that the following is correct: 1. The world unfolds according to natural laws (niyama) 2. My reaction to the world that I experience is determined by my mental environment 3. My mental environment is a mixture of recent experiences (short term) and accumulations (long term). 4. My reaction to the world that I experience contributes to my mental environment (both short term and long term). 5. My speech and action that follows my mental reaction will change the world; in this way I am part of this world that unfolds according to natural laws (point 1 above). This line of thinking reminds me of Godel's incompleteness theorem; we are part of this natural system (not an objective observer) and as such, there are things about this natural system which cannot be proven (or disproven). In order to prove (or disprove) these things, we need to step outside this system. Can I therefore conclude that seeing things as they truly are perfectly (i.e. fully within the axiomatic system) is not enough to transcend the system itself (i.e. experience Nibbana). One also needs to step outside the system (i.e. faith beyond what has been directly experienced). I suspect that I am tying myself into knots but I can't see the fallacy of my argument. Howard, you are a mathematician, aren't you? Can you help me? Metta, Rob M :-) 23548 From: jaranoh Date: Mon Jul 21, 2003 8:44am Subject: Week 5 (Jul 7, 02) No 4 Dear All: After a few months of disappearing, I am now continuing the "Sunday dhamma disscusion at the Foundation". Sorry for being so quiet. Feed back is welcome. I am behind. My last post (Week 5 (Jul 7, 02) No 3) was posted on April 29, 2003. Please refer to it if you are lost. Thanks.--Jaran Week 5, No 4: 19:15 min It is said that the first three vippassana ~na~na are 'tarunavipassana' because the moments of their arising (to penetrate the nature of dhamma) are brief, and they are weak. Dhamma arises, and the vippassana ~na~na, how breif it is, prenetrates the dhamma and then falls away. This happens in the middle of stream of thinking (technically, among other conciousness), which is a natural tendency before the first moment of satipa.t.thana as well as vippassana ~na~na. These three: naamarupapricchedanana, paccayaparigahanana and sammasananana are 'tarunavipassana' and are ~naata-pari~n~na because the understanding at the vipassana ~na~na moments is more profound than those prior to them. [~naata = part participle of ~naa(V) = to know, ~naata = has known] (added by Jaran) The understanding has known (directly and clearly experience, as supposed to contemplation) the characteristic of dhamma (nama and ruupa), in naamaruupapariccheda~na~na, for example. ---- Now question (from Jaran): In the case of paccayaparigaha~na~na, pa~n~na understands the conditions of dhamma, what about the sammasana-~nana, what is the things to be understood by pa~na~na? Anyone, please? ---- 23549 From: cetasika Date: Mon Jul 21, 2003 9:18am Subject: Right Effort Is it desirable to accept the circumstances and continue the effort to improve meditation or is it recommended to change the surroundings like the place, job etc to make the life easier for improving meditation 23550 From: m. nease Date: Mon Jul 21, 2003 1:18pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Perfections. Epilogue 2 Hi Nina, ----- Original Message ----- From: nina van gorkom To: Sent: Sunday, July 20, 2003 9:10 PM Subject: [dsg] Perfections. Epilogue 2 > Formerly we may have thought that we could not practise the perfections, that they > were beyond our reach. However, if we only see the benefit of each of the > perfections, and if we gradually develop them, they will eventually become > accomplished. We can verify for ourselves that listening to the Dhamma and > studying it is of the utmost benefit. It will enable us to apply the Dhamma in our > daily lives, to develop satipatthåna together with all the perfections. This is all quite true I think, as vohaara-sacca. But there seems to me to be a lot of 'we', 'us', 'our' and 'ourselves' in this summation that might be misleading--'we can see, we can develop, we can verify', 'it will enable us' etc. I'm afraid this might instantly condition the arising of the thought, 'I can see, develop, verify etc.', instead of the thought that hearing of and understanding of the perfections may lead to the their development by understanding itself. I know it's often a fine line to tread between vohaara- and paramattha-vacana. But I THINK that the idea that 'I can develop satipatthaana' is a dangerous obstacle to the the arising of satipatthaana--or maybe not? Hope this doesn't seem presumptuous or impertinent. mike 23551 From: m. nease Date: Mon Jul 21, 2003 1:55pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Right Effort Dear (?), ----- Original Message ----- From: cetasika To: Sent: Monday, July 21, 2003 9:18 AM Subject: [dsg] Right Effort > Is it desirable to accept the circumstances and continue the effort > to improve meditation or is it recommended to change the surroundings > like the place, job etc to make the life easier for improving > meditation Insight doesn't require any special circumstances or surroundings to arise--only having heard the Dhamma well-explained. Jhaana-cultivation (is this what you meant by 'meditation'?) requires a much more rarified environment, in my opinion (I think this is well born out by the suttas). So which is more important--jhaana, which was ancient before the bodhisatta was born, or insight, which leads out of sa.msaara? mike 23552 From: robmoult Date: Mon Jul 21, 2003 2:51pm Subject: Re: Right Effort Hi Cetasika, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "cetasika" wrote: > Is it desirable to accept the circumstances and continue the effort > to improve meditation or is it recommended to change the surroundings > like the place, job etc to make the life easier for improving > meditation You raise an excellent question. Buddhist ethics are very simple, yet very complex at the same time. Simple in that anything motivated by attachment (lobha), aversion (dosa) or delusion (moha) is unwholesome / unskillful / bad (akusala) and anything motivated by their opposites is wholesome / skillful / good (kusala). Complex in that thoughts rise and fall away again at an incredibly fast speed so that there can be many, many motivations behind a single thought / word / action. Let me give you an example to illustrate. A year and a half ago, I volunteered to teach a Sunday morning Abhidhamma class. That act of volunteering had multiple motivations behind it. There was conceit (mana), attachment to the idea that I could do a good job - that is bad. There was also a strong feeling that I wanted to learn more about Abhidhamma and I knew that teaching something was a good way of learning more - this is good. Here is another example. Each week, I work hard to prepare my class presentation. I get up very early to prepare my notes, check my references and make sure that I am ready. What is my motivation here? Part of the motivation is a fear (aversion) of making a fool out of myself in front of the class if I am not prepared - that is bad. However, I am also strongly motivated by a sincere love of the Dhamma - this is good. As you can see, a single action often has both unwholesome motivation (this makes the action bad) and wholesome motivation (this makes the action good). The quality (good or bad) of the kamma created depends on the type of motivation. In other words, an action can create both good and bad kamma because it can be motivated by both good and bad mental states. Right effort as one of the steps in the Noble Eightfold Path has four dimensions: 1. The effort to restrain defilements (sensual desire, ill will, dullness and drowsiness, restlessness and worry and doubt) through mindfulness of the present moment (wise attention) 2. The effort to abandon defilements by picking the suitable meditation subject (sensual desire -> impermanence, ill will -> metta, dullness and drowsiness -> light / walking / death, restlessness and worry -> breathing, doubt -> investigation not meditation) 3. The effort to develop wholesome states through the seven factors of enlightenment (mindfulness, investigation of phenomena, energy, rapture, tranquillity, concentration and equanimity) 4. The effort to maintain wholesome states using the same seven factors of enlightenment Cetasika, you asked about changing surroundings or changing one's job to support meditation practice. We can see that these things do not tie directly to "right effort". You must consider yourself the primary motivation of wanting to make these changes; is it wholesome or unwholesome? One of my friends gave up her well-paid job with a liquor company after learning the Dhamma (right livelihood). Having said this, I suspect that the Dhamma was not the only motivating factor involved and that some of the other motivating factors were unwholesome. Even when people renounce and become a monk, I suspect that there are subtle unwholesome motivations at play as well. Kammic weight is tied to the intensity of volition involved. Since we have so many unwholesome accumulations, it takes a major effort to perform kusala. Because it takes such a major effort to perform kusala (moving against the current as it were), kusala acts tend to create strong positive kamma. If, in your heart, you can say that the main motivation behind the changes contemplated is wholesome, then the changes should be encouraged; the wholesome kamma created will be much, much stronger than whatever unwholesome kamma you pick up along the way. As Mike has said, insight does not depend on surroundings. Attachement to the idea of "right surroundings" can be an impediment to progress. On the other hand, that does not mean that one should not change when needed. For example, if your meditation practice is to focus on the breath (to counter restlessness) and you detect the arising of dullness and drowsiness, it is appropriate to switch your meditation object (until the sleepiness goes away) to the sensation of the legs and buttocks touching the floor. If you have pain while meditating, it is advised to observe the nature of the pain; however if the pain is chronic, you may choose to change your sitting position. Sorry if my answer appears to be "sitting on the fence". Metta, Rob M :-) 23553 From: Date: Mon Jul 21, 2003 11:33am Subject: Re: [dsg] Apologies (and Godel) Hi, Rob - Good to hear from you! In a message dated 7/21/03 11:25:49 AM Eastern Daylight Time, rob.moult@j... writes: > Hi All, > > Sorry for being silent for so long. If anybody has been waiting > weeks (or months) for a reply from me, please let me know. > > I am currently in the Howard Hotel in Taipei and the name of the > hotel reminded me of my friend in the Dhamma and prompted me to re- > link with the DSG. > > Yesterday, as I got my luggage out of the overhead compartment on > the plane, I noticed an old Thai monk out of the corner of my eye. > The monk was smiling (in my opinion, the best monks smile a lot). > The instant of seeing that monk started a sequence of thoughts > (gotta get back to the practice, not just the theory...). As I > progressed to the immigration checkpoint, I found myself recalling > the Patimokkha and trying to walk like a monk (keeping my gaze not > more than one plow-length ahead of me). I was aware of the regret > that I did not have a chance to talk to the monk. > > I am not so egotistical to believe that the world revolves around me > and that my past has kamma arranged all these things to arise for me > to experience. There are other forces at work (niyama) as well. > ---------------------------------------------- Howard: Well. perhaps "There are more things in heaven and earth ..."! ;-) In any case, it was certainly your kamma vipaka to respond to the presence of the monk in the auspicious way that you did. ----------------------------------------------- > > Would you agree that the following is correct: > 1. The world unfolds according to natural laws (niyama) > 2. My reaction to the world that I experience is determined by my > mental environment > 3. My mental environment is a mixture of recent experiences (short > term) and accumulations (long term). > 4. My reaction to the world that I experience contributes to my > mental environment (both short term and long term). > 5. My speech and action that follows my mental reaction will change > the world; in this way I am part of this world that unfolds > according to natural laws (point 1 above). > ----------------------------------------------- Howard: Yes, sort of a complex feedback mechanism. ----------------------------------------------- > > This line of thinking reminds me of Godel's incompleteness theorem; > we are part of this natural system (not an objective observer) and > as such, there are things about this natural system which cannot be > proven (or disproven). In order to prove (or disprove) these things, > we need to step outside this system. > ------------------------------------------- Howard: Mmm. Analogy only goes so far, I think. ------------------------------------------- > > Can I therefore conclude that seeing things as they truly are > perfectly (i.e. fully within the axiomatic system) is not enough to > transcend the system itself (i.e. experience Nibbana). One also > needs to step outside the system (i.e. faith beyond what has been > directly experienced). > ------------------------------------------------- Howard: The nibbanic experience IS the stepping outside the system, isn't it? As I see it, one "steps outside the system" by means of a radical letting go. All that is done "within" the system is a preparation for that. But ultimately, there must just be a total, unconditional, letting go ... of everything. ------------------------------------------------ > > I suspect that I am tying myself into knots but I can't see the > fallacy of my argument. > > Howard, you are a mathematician, aren't you? -------------------------------------------------- Howard: Yep. -------------------------------------------------- Can you help me?> > ------------------------------------------------ Howard: Nope. ;-)) ------------------------------------------------ Metta,> > Rob M :-) > > ========================= With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 23554 From: Date: Mon Jul 21, 2003 3:00pm Subject: Re: [dsg] study question Hi Sarah, Jim, & all, This looks like a good way to go, so if there are no objections I'll start on wednesday, US time. Nina should be back by then. Also, I would like to encourage everyone to get a copy of this book, "The Path of Purification" by Bhadantacariya Buddhaghosa, trans. by Bhikkhu Nyanamoli, Buddhist Publication Society. It is indispensable for any study of abhidhamma and it will be helpful in filling in the gaps between what I post in email. Larry -------------------- Sarah wrote: I think the simplest thing for you, Jim and everyone would be if you proceed as normal with your installments in English only and Jim can 'reply' to them to add the Pali below, adding any key phrases and translations from the Tika when required. 23555 From: Date: Mon Jul 21, 2003 4:11pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Apologies (and Godel) Hi Rob, Good to see you again. I've been thinking about you. I have a question about one of U Silananda's tables in CMA. When you get back to your books maybe we can discuss it. Larry 23556 From: Andrew Date: Mon Jul 21, 2003 5:03pm Subject: Re: Not such a silly question...... Hello James and Victor Thank you both for your comments and insight. Confusion about my position is largely due to the fact that I don't really have one! Or if I do have one, it never lasts! [yet another illustration of impermanence]. I need to reflect more deeply on what you have both said, but insert a little aside below: --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: > Free will exists because there > is karma, it has nothing to do with self or non-self. Free will, > broken down, is the conglomeration of certain energies directly > affecting other energies; this affectation can be as simple as > deciding to eat a cookie to making oneself levitate and fly, it > depends on the conglomeration of energy. Energies affect other > energies all the time (rain, fire, gravity, etc.) but certain > energies come together, form sentient life forms who can choose when > and how to affect other energies, and therefore build the false sense > of self. It isn't until this 'renegade' energy sees itself for what > it is that it will cease to manifest in suffering forms. Back to advertising research for a moment, "subliminal advertising" as a mass technique has been debunked and replaced with "shallow processing". These are prompts/conditions/energies that don't quite make it into our conscious awareness but are sufficient to trigger primary drives like lust and hunger. If I watch an advertisement that aims to trigger my hunger via shallow processing, then I get up from my chair and go for the cookie jar, is this an exercise of volition or is it just the playing out of conditions? Where is the "free" in "free will" during the huge amount of time when I'm not consciously deliberating about "what to do"? I'll end with a quote from Henry van Zeyst: "just as there is no entity like the world to be either eternal or not, for the world is only a passing process of unsubstantial phenomena to which such attributes are not applicable, so there is no entity like a will to be either determined or free, for the will is only a process of willing which arises and passes in dependence on arising and passing conditions, and which therefore can be neither determined nor free". Metta, Andrew 23557 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Mon Jul 21, 2003 5:18pm Subject: Re: Right Effort I think it is a personal decision, and it might be a hard decision to make. It is like asking if it is recommended to go forth and live a monastic life. Again it is a personal decision. The Buddha gave the Bodhisatta's reason for choosing the going forth: I will describe the Going Forth, how he, the One-with-Vision, went forth, how he reasoned and chose the Going Forth. "Household life is crowded, a realm of dust, while going forth is the open air." Seeing this, he went forth. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/khuddaka/suttanipata/snp3- 01.html Peace, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "cetasika" wrote: > Is it desirable to accept the circumstances and continue the effort > to improve meditation or is it recommended to change the surroundings > like the place, job etc to make the life easier for improving > meditation 23558 From: rjkjp1 Date: Mon Jul 21, 2003 6:37pm Subject: Re: Update on Bhikkhuni Sangha --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Dear Group, > > Just an update of some news stories after the Ordination of Theravada > Bhikkhunis on the 28 February 2003 in Sri Lanka in a properly > constituted ceremony by Ten Bhikkhunis and a Twelve Bhikkhus. ____________ Dear Christine, I know you won't welcome what I have to say about this so I was hoping someone else would comment. Since no one has I add my opinion. I do not believe this ordination was 'properly constituted'. The 'bhikkhunis' were ordained in a sect outside Theravada. If it is decided that they can be considered as Theravda bhikkhuni then surely the male monks in Taiwan can also be considered Theravada bhikkhu and I don't think that is right. In the time of king Asoka(about 300 years after the buddha) he was worried about a split between different sects. The ancient monks of the orthodox Theravada refused to perform any sangha acts with the other groups (whose differences in some cases seem considerably more minor than the differences between theravda and other sects). He thought this was bad so he sent his minister to force the orthodox to agree. The energetic minister had no success so he started at one end of where the senior bhikkus were seated and chopped off heads one by one. They still refused. He kept going until he came to a member of the royal family who he recognized at which he stopped his killing.(I might have some details slighly wrong as I go on memory) The point of this story is that the ancient monks took such matters seriously. I know someone might argue that it is now a long time after this and since there are already declines in the behaviour of some Bhikkhus that such matters are no longer important. Again my opinion is that ordination procedures have always been taken seriously in theravada. So I think it is more helpful for the Sasana to encourage respect for the Vinaya (of which ordination procedures are a part) than to make efforts to bypass it. RobertK 23559 From: robmoult Date: Mon Jul 21, 2003 10:33pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Apologies (and Godel) Hi Larry, I am back home with my books now. I have CMA and U Silananda's lecture notes with his corrections to his CMA tables. I am flying off again in 24 hours, so I look forward to your question. Metta, Rob M :-) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@w... wrote: > Hi Rob, > > Good to see you again. I've been thinking about you. I have a question > about one of U Silananda's tables in CMA. When you get back to your > books maybe we can discuss it. > > Larry 23560 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Tue Jul 22, 2003 1:11am Subject: Re: [dsg] Apologies (and Godel) Rob Nice to hear from you again. I'd like to offer a quick comment on your model. My comment is that there is no connection between the 'unfolding world' of item 1 (as I understand that term) and the other items. The unfolding world and the world of an individual's experiences are 2 quite different things. Similarly, an individual's speech and actions do not 'become part of' the unfolding world. I don't know if this makes sense to you (if not, perhaps you could elaborate on what you mean by the 'unfolding world'). Jon PS Is Hong Kong on your travel schedule for the near future? --- robmoult wrote: > Hi All, ... > 1. The world unfolds according to natural laws (niyama) > 2. My reaction to the world that I experience is determined by my > mental environment > 3. My mental environment is a mixture of recent experiences (short > term) and accumulations (long term). > 4. My reaction to the world that I experience contributes to my > mental environment (both short term and long term). > 5. My speech and action that follows my mental reaction will change > the world; in this way I am part of this world that unfolds > according to natural laws (point 1 above). 23561 From: Sarah Date: Tue Jul 22, 2003 1:13am Subject: Re: [dsg] study question Hi Jim, --- Jim Anderson wrote: > Dear Sarah (and Larry), > > Welcome back from your holidays! ..... Thanks, Jim. We always love the cool air, spring flowers, snow-capped mountains and quiet - such a contrast to the hustle bustle here. ..... > Thanks, I agree that this would certainly be a much better and simpler > way. I can respond to Larry's English installments by adding the > corresponding Pali along with some of the comments from the Maha Tika > and also add some comments of my own. It sounds like an interesting > study project and I'm looking forward to it. ..... Good.... please let us know anytime you’d like a slower pace. Your input is very valuable. Larry could always start a second project (? a sutta w/comy, another book of Nina’s) to run concurrently if it becomes too slow for him or others, perhaps. ..... > On another subject, I was wondering if you or anyone else has ever > come across an English translation of the following two passages from > these commentaries: > > Suttanipaata-a.t.thakathaa, pp. 46-52 on the Khaggavisaa.nasutta. > Theragaathaa-a.t.thakathaa, pp. 1-19 on the introductory verses. ..... I haven’t. I can’t help finding it disappointing that K.R.Norman didn’t include detailed comy notes to his transl of Thera-Theriigaathaa and especially to his recent transl of Suttanipaata. Mrs Rhys-Davids includes quite a lot of comy detail to her older transl of the first, but not on the intro verses that I can see. ..... > The passages contain a lot of valuable information about > mahaabodhisattas, paccekabodhisattas, and saavakabodhisattas. And > there is a conversation between the Buddha and Ananda in the SnA > passage about the time it takes for the first two types to become a > buddha. ..... Sounds very interesting. Btw on an old discussion we had on the height of the Buddha, I came across a detail that Kanthaka, the horse the future Buddha left the palace on, was also 18 cubits long and 18 cubits high, the same as the Buddha’s height given before. This is from the Introduction to the Jatakas. It also says that Kanthaka was “able to travel round the world from end to end, as it were round the rim of a wheel lying on its hub, and yet get back before breakfast and eat the food prepared for him.” I’d be glad to hear if you find the English translations you mention. Perhaps we can suggest it to the PTS when we write. With metta, Sarah ====== 23562 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Tue Jul 22, 2003 1:22am Subject: Re: [dsg] Week 5 (Jul 7, 02) No 4 JJ Good to see you back! Thanks for the translation and particularly for the reminder about beginning insight being both brief and weak. I think this is sometimes overlooked in our wish to see 'evidence' of developing insight. It may sometimes be the case that insight is there but is so weak and so brief that it is not noticed or recognised for what it is. If so, that is a pity, because it means that the benefit of the moments of insight is largely lost. Jon --- jaranoh wrote: ... > It is said that the first three vippassana ~na~na are > 'tarunavipassana' because the moments of their arising (to > penetrate > the nature of dhamma) are brief, and they are weak. Dhamma arises, > and > the vippassana ~na~na, how breif it is, prenetrates the dhamma and > then falls away. This happens in the middle of stream of thinking > (technically, among other conciousness), which is a natural > tendency > before the first moment of satipa.t.thana as well as vippassana > ~na~na. 23563 From: Sarah Date: Tue Jul 22, 2003 1:26am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Anicca (Impermanence)/KenH Dear Friends, I was asked (off-list) where I found the following translation and it is at the front of Warren’s book on ‘Buddhism In Translations’, first published in 1896. I wasn’t quite sure whether it was his translation (which is why I didn’t mention his name), though I assume it is. http://www.sacred-texts.com/bud/bits/index.htm Nyanaponika/B.Bodhi's translation of the sutta in brief can be found on p.77 of 'Numerical Discourses of the Buddha'. Metta, Sarah ===== > THE THREE CHARACTERISTICS. > > Translated from the Anguttara-Nikâya (iii.1341). 23564 From: m. nease Date: Tue Jul 22, 2003 5:50am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Anicca (Impermanence)/KenH Thanks, Sarah, Here's an alternate translation by Ven. Thanissaro: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an03-137.html --I like Warren's a lot better, personally, but am not competent to say which is better. mike ----- Original Message ----- From: Sarah To: Sent: Tuesday, July 22, 2003 1:26 AM Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Anicca (Impermanence)/KenH > Dear Friends, > > I was asked (off-list) where I found the following translation and it is > at the front of Warren's book on 'Buddhism In Translations', first > published in 1896. I wasn't quite sure whether it was his translation > (which is why I didn't mention his name), though I assume it is. > http://www.sacred-texts.com/bud/bits/index.htm > > Nyanaponika/B.Bodhi's translation of the sutta in brief can be found on > p.77 of 'Numerical Discourses of the Buddha'. > > Metta, > > Sarah > ===== > > > THE THREE CHARACTERISTICS. > > > > Translated from the Anguttara-Nikâya (iii.1341). 23565 From: peterdac4298 Date: Tue Jul 22, 2003 6:45am Subject: Re: [dsg] Off to Thailand Hi Jon et al Thanks for the offer. Right now I'm in Udon, holed up for a couple of weeks, so have a chance to access DSG from a local Internet Cafe. With more time to hand, can be a little more coherent. I do apreciate your offers for assistance, very heartening to know. My first aim is to visit Ajahn Maha Boowa at Wat Pa Baan Taad, hence the Udon stop. After that I have not made any plans, as I am rather hoping to be accepted (ie ordained) into his group. Since this is largely a collection of forest monasteries where the focus is on simplicity and training through the implementation of the Vinaya, I rather doubt if I'll have many opportunities to get online during the next few years. However, when ever I do I'll make sure I put in an appearance at DSG. I do hope Yahoo Groups keep my membership valid inspite of prolong periods of inactivity. The convenience of connecting through my personalized Yahoo page will no doubt go, but do hope that group memberships don't time out too: I've a feeling they should be OK. Aplogies for spelling. Not too supprisingly, Thai internet cafe's don't seem to have any applications for English language users, at least not up in this neck of the woods. Cheers Peter --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Peter > > Congratulations on making the effort to get to Thailand for Dhamma > study. I wish you success in finding those with good understanding. > > Any time you have the opportunity, we would be happy to hear how > things are going. > > Please feel free to ask if you would like any names or addresses. > Between the members of this list there is a lot of Thailand > experience, covering all 'schools' of dhamma contacts. > > Jon > > --- peterdac4298 wrote: > Hi All > > > > Just to say that I'm off to Thailand. Right now I'm waiting on the > > last leg of my flight at Brunei Int. with about fifteen minutes to > > go before assembling at the depature gate, having already completed > > > sixteen hours from Heathrow. > > > > I doubt if I'll get onto the 'net for a long time. I'm hoping to > > be > > taken on by a forest monatery for training. To be taken seriously, > > a commitement of five years is the minimum anyone will consider. > > However, if an opportunity arrises before then, I'll certainly try > > to take advantage of it. > > > > In the meantime, I have Nina's book to work through and will try to > > cover other titles from Zolag. Sorry I did'nt get the chance to > > meet up with Alan... > > > > Tannoy is announcing my flight, so must go. > > > > Please excuse spelling, no time for spell check. > > > > Mettacittena > > > > Peter Da Costa 23566 From: rjkjp1 Date: Tue Jul 22, 2003 8:04am Subject: Re: Off to Thailand --- Best wishes in thailand, Peter. I plan to spend a week their late september, but unfortunately nowhere near Udon Robert In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "peterdac4298" wrote: > Hi Jon et al > > Thanks for the offer. Right now I'm in Udon, holed up for a couple > of > weeks, so have a chance to access DSG from a local Internet Cafe. > With more time to hand, can be a little more coherent. I do > apreciate > your offers for assistance, very heartening to know. My first aim is > to > visit Ajahn Maha Boowa at Wat Pa Baan Taad, hence the Udon stop. > After that I have not made any plans, as I am rather hoping to be > accepted (ie ordained) into his group. Since this 23567 From: Date: Tue Jul 22, 2003 0:04pm Subject: object condition Hi Rob, Glad to catch you. Here's my question: on page 308 of CMA (Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma), Table 8.3 "Conditioning and Conditioned States of the 24 Conditions", how is one to understand "2. Object Condition". It says the conditioning states (in other words the objects) are 89 cittas, 52 cetasikas, 28 rupas, Nibbana, and concepts. The conditioned states (in other words the subjects of those objects) are 89 cittas and 52 cetasikas. This seems to imply that Nibbana could be the object of any of the 89 cittas or 52 cetasikas. This surely isn't the case or am I misreading it? What I am looking for is clarification on which cittas and cetasikas can have Nibbana and concepts as object and what Nibbana and concepts do as conditioners. Larry 23568 From: christine_forsyth Date: Tue Jul 22, 2003 1:19pm Subject: Re: Update on Bhikkhuni Sangha Hello Robert, Your post made me sad, using such an extreme example which can't be verified, and which doesn't actually seem to relate to the Bhikkhuni Sangha instituted by the Buddha. (In any case, my understanding is that there were fake monks freeloading on the system - not monks of other traditions). The Mahayana Bhikkunis lineage was transplanted from Theravada, and is recognised as having been continuously kept and true to the Bhikkhuni Vinaya. Why else do you think the senior Bhikkhus in Sri Lanka agreed to be part of the ceremony? Were they not "encouraging respect for the Vinaya (of which ordination procedures are a part)" or were they "making efforts to bypass it."? metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" > wrote: > > Dear Group, > > > > Just an update of some news stories after the Ordination of > Theravada > > Bhikkhunis on the 28 February 2003 in Sri Lanka in a properly > > constituted ceremony by Ten Bhikkhunis and a Twelve Bhikkhus. > ____________ > Dear Christine, > I know you won't welcome what I have to say about this so I was > hoping someone else would comment. Since no one has I add my opinion. > I do not believe this ordination was 'properly constituted'. > The 'bhikkhunis' were ordained in a sect outside Theravada. If it is > decided that they can be considered as Theravda bhikkhuni then > surely the male monks in Taiwan can also be considered Theravada > bhikkhu and I don't think that is right. > In the time of king Asoka(about 300 years after the buddha) he was > worried about a split between different sects. The ancient monks of > the orthodox Theravada refused to perform any sangha acts with the > other groups (whose differences in some cases seem considerably more > minor than the differences between theravda and other sects). He > thought this was bad so he sent his minister to force the orthodox > to agree. The energetic minister had no success so he started at one > end of where the senior bhikkus were seated and chopped off heads > one by one. They still refused. He kept going until he came to a > member of the royal family who he recognized at which he stopped his > killing.(I might have some details slighly wrong as I go on memory) > The point of this story is that the ancient monks took such matters > seriously. > I know someone might argue that it is now a long time after this and > since there are already declines in the behaviour of some Bhikkhus > that such matters are no longer important. Again my opinion is that > ordination procedures have always been taken seriously in theravada. > So I think it is more helpful for the Sasana to encourage respect > for the Vinaya (of which ordination procedures are a part) than to > make efforts to bypass it. > RobertK 23569 From: robmoult Date: Tue Jul 22, 2003 3:35pm Subject: Re: object condition Hi Larry, The purpose of Table 8.3 in CMA is to clarify the operation of the 24 conditions by listing all possible conditioning states and all possible conditioned states. It is incorrect to say that every member of the list of conditioned states (i.e. Nibbana) conditions all of the conditioned states (i.e. 89 cittas, 52 cetasikas). The only cittas that can have Nibbana as object are the supramundane cittas (8 or 40, depending on how you count them). The Path cittas arise once (performing the function of uprooting defilements) but the Fruit cittas can arise many times. These cittas are described on P66-68 of CMA. The cetasikas arising with these cittas depends on the associated jhanic state. Table 2.3 on P101 (Sampayoga method) and Table 2.4 on P112-113 (Sangaha method) list the cetasikas arising with these cittas. When considering which cittas can take concepts as object, it is probably easier to do this by process of elimination. The only cittas that cannot have concepts as an object would be the five pairs of sense consciousness plus the supramundane cittas. In other words, there are 89 - 10 - 8 = 71 cittas that can take concepts as objects. As an aside, the 12 immaterial sphere cittas have specific concepts as object whereas the remaining 59 cittas are not limited to a specific concept as object. Table 2.3 and 2.4 list the specific cetasikas arising with each citta, but among the 71 cittas having concepts as objects, each of the 52 cetasikas are represented. You have also asked about what Nibbana and concepts do as conditioners. Each citta experiences an object and all cetasikas arising with the citta experience the same object. Therefore an object conditions the citta and its associated cetasikas. The way in which the object conditions the citta and associated cetasikas is "object-condition" (arammana-paccaya). As an analogy, an invalid may pull themselves up using a rope and may stand with the support of a walking stick. Just as the rope and the walking stick give support to an invalid, so also the objects give support to cittas and cetasikas to enable them to arise. For example, visible object is related to eye-consciousness with its associated cetasikas (and the other cittas / cetasikas in the citta- process) by object-condition (arammana-paccaya). Larry, did I answer your question? Metta, Rob M :-) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@w... wrote: > Hi Rob, > > Glad to catch you. Here's my question: on page 308 of CMA (Comprehensive > Manual of Abhidhamma), Table 8.3 "Conditioning and Conditioned States of > the 24 Conditions", how is one to understand "2. Object Condition". It > says the conditioning states (in other words the objects) are 89 cittas, > 52 cetasikas, 28 rupas, Nibbana, and concepts. The conditioned states > (in other words the subjects of those objects) are 89 cittas and 52 > cetasikas. This seems to imply that Nibbana could be the object of any > of the 89 cittas or 52 cetasikas. This surely isn't the case or am I > misreading it? > > What I am looking for is clarification on which cittas and cetasikas can > have Nibbana and concepts as object and what Nibbana and concepts do as > conditioners. > > Larry 23570 From: robmoult Date: Tue Jul 22, 2003 4:23pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Apologies (and Godel) Hi Jon, Let me try to express this concept another way. "The world" operates as a natural system according to a set of rules (niyama). There is no "self" with "objective observer" status. The stream of nama-rupa called "Rob" is not separate from "the world", rather it is part of "the world"; subject to the same set of rules. This stream of nama-rupa has the capacity to impact "the world". As an analogy, imagine you are watching a billiard game. If you are sitting in the stands or watching on TV, it is clear what is happening (you have "objective observer" status). Now imagine that you are a very, very small bug resting on the cue-ball. The perspective of the small bug living on the cue ball limits the level of understanding it can achieve (this is my understanding of Godel's incompleteness theorem). To "see things as they truly are", the small bug must be able to get off of the cue ball to be able to take an objective observer status. Comments? Metta, Rob M :-) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > My comment is that there is no connection between the 'unfolding > world' of item 1 (as I understand that term) and the other items. > The unfolding world and the world of an individual's experiences are > 2 quite different things. > > Similarly, an individual's speech and actions do not 'become part of' > the unfolding world. > > I don't know if this makes sense to you (if not, perhaps you could > elaborate on what you mean by the 'unfolding world'). > > Jon > > PS Is Hong Kong on your travel schedule for the near future? > > --- robmoult wrote: > Hi All, > ... > > 1. The world unfolds according to natural laws (niyama) > > 2. My reaction to the world that I experience is determined by my > > mental environment > > 3. My mental environment is a mixture of recent experiences (short > > term) and accumulations (long term). > > 4. My reaction to the world that I experience contributes to my > > mental environment (both short term and long term). > > 5. My speech and action that follows my mental reaction will change > > the world; in this way I am part of this world that unfolds > > according to natural laws (point 1 above). 23571 From: Date: Tue Jul 22, 2003 1:53pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Apologies (and Godel) Hi, Rob and Jon - In a message dated 7/22/03 7:25:19 PM Eastern Daylight Time, rob.moult@j... writes: > > Hi Jon, > > Let me try to express this concept another way. > > "The world" operates as a natural system according to a set of rules > (niyama). There is no "self" with "objective observer" status. The > stream of nama-rupa called "Rob" is not separate from "the world", > rather it is part of "the world"; subject to the same set of rules. > This stream of nama-rupa has the capacity to impact "the world". > > As an analogy, imagine you are watching a billiard game. If you are > sitting in the stands or watching on TV, it is clear what is > happening (you have "objective observer" status). Now imagine that > you are a very, very small bug resting on the cue-ball. The > perspective of the small bug living on the cue ball limits the level > of understanding it can achieve (this is my understanding of Godel's > incompleteness theorem). To "see things as they truly are", the > small bug must be able to get off of the cue ball to be able to take > an objective observer status. > > Comments? > > Metta, > Rob M :-) > ========================== Rob, you write "There is no 'self' with 'objective observer' status. The stream of nama-rupa called 'Rob' is not separate from 'the world', rather it is part of 'the world'; subject to the same set of rules." I agree with you on this, Rob. Moreover, from my phenomenalist perspective, matters are even more complex. As much as "I" am part of "the world", and impact it, "the world" is part of "me". There is "my world", and there is "another world" for every other sentient being (namarupic stream), and these all interact and interpenetrate like mirrors placed at the interstices of Indra's net, each reflecting all the others - reflections within reflections within reflections ... ad infinitum. Where is there a stand for an "objective observer"? Where is there a place to stand? There is none, neither within the whole nor without. When the "I" slips away, it is like the world slipping away from under one's feet. No anchor. No foothold. No place to stand. The full realization of "no place to stand" and letting go of the "need" for such a place is, perhaps, what liberation is about. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 23572 From: kenhowardau Date: Tue Jul 22, 2003 5:54pm Subject: Re: My time with A. Sujin. 6. Dear Nina, I hope you enjoy/ed your holidays. Meanwhile I am enjoying your series, "My time with A. Sujin." As uninstructed worldlings aspiring to greatness, we perversely believe that the way to venerate the Buddha is by turning our attention to thoughts of learning and progressing. If we think of present realities at all, it is with disdain -- it is as if they were inferior to certain past or future realities and therefore, unworthy of attention. So it is refreshing to read, for example: > A. Sujin explained that seeing here is the same as seeing in another place, hearing here is the same as hearing in another place. Seeing is always seeing and hearing is always hearing, they are ultimate realities with their unalterable characteristics. We learnt that the Abhidhamma is not theory, that it can be directly applied, and this is satipatthana. She would often remind us, ¦And how about this moment now?‚ Whatever questions people asked, she would always guide them to the present moment. > Kind regards, Ken 23573 From: Jim Anderson Date: Tue Jul 22, 2003 6:22pm Subject: Re: [dsg] study question Hi Sarah, > Thanks, Jim. We always love the cool air, spring flowers, snow-capped > mountains and quiet - such a contrast to the hustle bustle here. Sounds like you had a refreshing holiday! > > Thanks, I agree that this would certainly be a much better and simpler > > way. I can respond to Larry's English installments by adding the > > corresponding Pali along with some of the comments from the Maha Tika > > and also add some comments of my own. It sounds like an interesting > > study project and I'm looking forward to it. > ..... > Good.... please let us know anytime you'd like a slower pace. Your input > is very valuable. Larry could always start a second project (? a sutta > w/comy, another book of Nina's) to run concurrently if it becomes too > slow for him or others, perhaps. I don't want the pace to slow down just on my account. I have prepared the Pali text and it's ready to be added to the English translation anytime and I can keep up with the pace but without adding much in the way of my own comments. I could just supply the Pali text while at the same time do the detailed study at my own pace and post the results when done and that could take some time. I have started on XIV.1 and already I've run into some syntactical problems with the first sentence. I'm not even sure if ~Na.namoli or P.M. Tin have translated it correctly and so I'll have to spend some time trying to understand and confirm whether or not their translations agree with the Pali. I also need to study the Maha Tika which contains much of great value. Should I supply just the Pali (Vism) text for each of Larry's installments and follow up later with my comments, or defer the Pali additions until I post my comments? Either way is fine with me. [...] > Btw on an old discussion we had on the height of the Buddha, I came across > a detail that Kanthaka, the horse the future Buddha left the palace on, > was also 18 cubits long and 18 cubits high, the same as the Buddha's > height given before. This is from the Introduction to the Jatakas. It also > says that Kanthaka was "able to travel round the world from end to end, as > it were round the rim of a wheel lying on its hub, and yet get back before > breakfast and eat the food prepared for him." That must have been some horse! It reminds me of the horse treasure of a wheel-turning monarch. > I'd be glad to hear if you find the English translations you mention. > Perhaps we can suggest it to the PTS when we write. Thanks for your response. I don't think PTS would publish a translation unless it was the entire commentary. I thought that maybe BPS might have something in the way of translated extracts. It seems to me that these passages are hardly known in the English-speaking world. I have yet to study them in detail but from what I've read so far it's like a bodhisatta doctrine being laid out in quite an impressive way and a good response to some of those Mahayana critics. I think you will be familiar with some of the material eg. the 8 conditions needed to become a Mahaabodhisatta as in the Buddhava.msa, but there is also the 5 conditions for a paccekabodhisatta and 2 (adhikaara and chandataa) for the saavakabodhisatta. It would make for a worthwhile translation project sometime. Best wishes, Jim 23574 From: Date: Tue Jul 22, 2003 6:56pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: object condition Thanks Rob, You answered my question very well and inspired me to look into it in greater detail. When you said: "As an aside, the 12 immaterial sphere cittas have specific concepts as object whereas the remaining 59 cittas are not limited to a specific concept as object." do you mean the 40 meditation subjects: 10 kasinas, 10 kinds of foulness, 10 recollections, 4 devine abidings, 4 immaterial states, 1 perception of repulsiveness in nutriment, and the one defining of the 4 elements? If you have time could you give us a word of explanation on Path Condition? Larry 23575 From: Dr Jose M Sanz-Tonnelier Date: Tue Jul 22, 2003 4:51pm Subject: Re: Update on Bhikkhuni Sangha Deare Christine, it may be very sad, but last week I attended a funeral of a theravatan monk and during one of the dhamma talks a very senior theravatan monk ( the most senior Laotian monk in Australia, from Brisbane) mention that women do not reach nirvana, that they have two ways to go to nirvana, one is if they are reborn as MAN or if one of their children becomes a monk. So with this way of thinking, what change do women have to become monks. Metta. Ajahn Jose > Hello Robert, > > Your post made me sad, using such an extreme example which can't be > verified, and which doesn't actually seem to relate to the Bhikkhuni > Sangha instituted by the Buddha. (In any case, my understanding is > that there were fake monks freeloading on the system - not monks of > other traditions). The Mahayana Bhikkunis lineage was transplanted > from Theravada, and is recognised as having been continuously kept > and true to the Bhikkhuni Vinaya. Why else do you think the senior > Bhikkhus in Sri Lanka agreed to be part of the ceremony? Were they > not "encouraging respect for the Vinaya (of which ordination > procedures are a part)" or were they "making efforts to bypass it."? > > > metta and peace, > Christine 23576 From: Sarah Date: Wed Jul 23, 2003 1:09am Subject: RobM's 24hr deadline (was Re: Right Effort) Hi RobM, I know I’ve probably missed the 24hr deadline, but hopefully you’ll still be reading. It’s always good to see your around and read your input. When you disappear for more than a few weeks, members start asking me where you are;-) I appreciated your posts and explanations to Cetasika and Larry very much. --- robmoult wrote: > > Buddhist ethics are very simple, yet very complex at the same time. > > Simple in that anything motivated by attachment (lobha), aversion > (dosa) or delusion (moha) is unwholesome / unskillful / bad > (akusala) and anything motivated by their opposites is wholesome / > skillful / good (kusala). > > Complex in that thoughts rise and fall away again at an incredibly > fast speed so that there can be many, many motivations behind a > single thought / word / action. ..... Good point and examples and I should learn from your use of non-stilted language;-) ..... > Kammic weight is tied to the intensity of volition involved. Since > we have so many unwholesome accumulations, it takes a major effort > to perform kusala. Because it takes such a major effort to perform > kusala (moving against the current as it were), kusala acts tend to > create strong positive kamma. If, in your heart, you can say that > the main motivation behind the changes contemplated is wholesome, > then the changes should be encouraged; the wholesome kamma created > will be much, much stronger than whatever unwholesome kamma you pick > up along the way. ..... Without questioning what you write here, I want to share with you a few comments from one of our recent discussions with A.Sujin on kamma, kamma patha and vipaka while it’s still fresh in my memory. This follows on from previous discussions about kamma bringing results . In brief, A.Sujin stressed: - only the 10 kamma-patha bring rebirth consciousnes and all vipaka after rebirth. - other kusala and akusala cittas in the javana process don’t bring results. For example now, putting sugar in the tea or gardening - of course there are kilesa, but no results. She asked what is the use of the 3 rounds (va.t.ta), i.e kilesa vatta (round of defilements), kamma vatta (kamma round) and vipaka round (round of results), if kilesa and kamma are the same in effect. In fact, kilesa conditions kamma, kamma conditions vipaka. We read about the details and distinctions of these in paticca samuppada (dependent origination). She also asked what’s the use of knowing the details of kamma-patha if all akusala and kusala cetana/kamma bring results. As you are explaining to Larry, conditions are very complication. A.Sujin was also discussing upanissaya paccaya (decisive support condition) and kamma condition. She menitioned that if all kilesa bring results, there’d be no need for kamma condition (implying it’s functions would already be carried out by upanissaya condition). I hope I haven’t misrepresented any of the points as I understand them- Sukin or Jon, please let me know if I have. Rob, let us know if you have any further comments and I hope Larry and others find more questions for you too;-) With metta, Sarah ====== 23577 From: Sarah Date: Wed Jul 23, 2003 1:19am Subject: Re: [dsg] Week 5 (Jul 7, 02) No 4 Hi Jaran, Good to see you around - we missed you in Bkk on our brief visit. Will you be joining the trip to Burma (which a few of us from DSG will be joining)? --- jaranoh wrote: > ---- > Now question (from Jaran): In the case of paccayaparigaha~na~na, > pa~n~na understands the conditions of dhamma, what about the > sammasana-~nana, what is the things to be understood by pa~na~na? > Anyone, please? > ---- There was a little more discussion on this question and one of Nina's in Bkk - I'd like to listen to the tape first and get back on it in a day or two, so this note is just to ask you not to run away too quickly, but to keep reading and posting in the meantime;-) Always good to read your translations and especially now with the added Pali detail too. Hope all's well in Singapore now. Our good friend, Erik, is now working there. Metta, Sarah p.s If anyone else from overseas is joining the Burma trip in Bkk and wants to meet up with us during the weekend before the trip, pls let me know off-list ================= 23578 From: Sarah Date: Wed Jul 23, 2003 1:39am Subject: Re: [dsg] study question Hi Jim, --- Jim Anderson wrote: > I don't want the pace to slow down just on my account. I have prepared > the Pali text and it's ready to be added to the English translation > anytime and I can keep up with the pace but without adding much in the > way of my own comments. I could just supply the Pali text while at the > same time do the detailed study at my own pace and post the results > when done and that could take some time. I have started on XIV.1 and > already I've run into some syntactical problems with the first > sentence. I'm not even sure if ~Na.namoli or P.M. Tin have translated > it correctly and so I'll have to spend some time trying to understand > and confirm whether or not their translations agree with the Pali. I > also need to study the Maha Tika which contains much of great value. ..... It sounds like you’re already doing some useful homework and research, Jim. .... > Should I supply just the Pali (Vism) text for each of Larry's > installments and follow up later with my comments, or defer the > Pali additions until I post my comments? Either way is fine with me. ...... I think either way is very fine and it just depends on how you prefer to proceed. Maybe you don't need to fix a 'rule' at this stage and can just see how it works out. If you're busy you may wish to post the Pali first, while at other times, you may be ready to add some of your comments with it. ...... > Thanks for your response. I don't think PTS would publish a > translation unless it was the entire commentary. I thought that maybe > BPS might have something in the way of translated extracts. It seems > to me that these passages are hardly known in the English-speaking > world. I have yet to study them in detail but from what I've read so > far it's like a bodhisatta doctrine being laid out in quite an > impressive way and a good response to some of those Mahayana critics. > I think you will be familiar with some of the material eg. the 8 > conditions needed to become a Mahaabodhisatta as in the Buddhava.msa, > but there is also the 5 conditions for a paccekabodhisatta and 2 > (adhikaara and chandataa) for the saavakabodhisatta. It would make for > a worthwhile translation project sometime. ..... I’ll ask B.Bodhi (if there are any BPS translated extracts) when I write on the other point as well. The translation to the Sutta Nipata Comy has been high on my ‘wish’ list for a long time. Out of interest, is it a long text, like the Udana Comy, or a short one? I don’t know anything about it except that it would be useful to refer to when friends quote passages from the text with different interpretations from my own;-) Metta, Sarah ====== 23579 From: gazita2002 Date: Wed Jul 23, 2003 1:40am Subject: [dsg] Re: Perfections, Equanimity, Qu. --- dear Nina, Apologies for taking so long to answer. My life seems to have done a bit of a loopy loop these last couple of weeks. Sometimes, I think this dhamma is just too hard and then there is the reminder that even those moments of despair are real and can be known. I appreciate your comment: 'We still have problems. We need also Upekkha. ----- if there is also Upekkha at times, we can be evenminded about people's reactions.' I find that in my thinking, I feel quite secure that I'm cool, calm and collected, but when confronted with hurtful matters, the citta so conditions rupa that my voice changes and my body hurts. We can blame the other for hurting us, but we know that if we didn't have defilements then nothing would hurt. Long way to go!!! Thank you for you reply about the Bodhisattva, and it is clearer for me. I think he was giving the others the opportunity to rejoice in his equanimity; as a monk, that would be expected of him, but as a lay person it would be more obvious, perhaps. Patience, patience and more patience Azita In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > Dear Azita, > I always appreciate it if people mention what is not clear. I can add a > footnote. This passage could be read in two ways: > op 13-07-2003 00:26 schreef gazita2002 op gazita2002@y...: > >> Perfections, Ch 11, Equanimity, no 6. > [snip] > Panna is necessary too. We need to see ourselves and > others as condiitoned realities. > Nina. 23580 From: Sarah Date: Wed Jul 23, 2003 2:13am Subject: Re: [dsg] Donkeys and Desire (was Re: Anicca (Impermanence)/KenH) Hi Victor, Sorry, for this delay. You’ve been making some helpful comments. --- yu_zhonghao wrote: > Hi Sarah, > > Thank you for your reply and references. I appreciate it. > > Desire itself can be quite neutral in terms of being > skillful/wholesome or unskillful/unwholesome. It is what/whom one > desires for makes the difference. ..... I’m not sure I quite follow you here. Are you saying that if the object of consciousness is say, the Buddha, that the ‘desire’ must be wholesome? Does it mean there cannot be any attachment when one thinks about the Buddha or pays respect in a temple, for example? ..... >Thus the word "desire" needs to > be understood in its proper context. Pali words "chanda" > and "iccha" can be translated as "desire". However, each Pali > original has it's own connotation. ..... I complete agree with you here. The context has to be understood, especially if we’re just relying on a translation using the word ‘desire’. Perhaps this was your point above. Often, the distinction is clear-cut. In our daily life, I don’t think it’s so simple as to say that the ‘desire, motivation, and aspiration to develop wholesome qualities’ must be wholesome. I liked (yet another) pithy paragraph of Ken H’s (to Howard): ***** “What is essential is an appreciation of the benefits of calm, equanimity, detachment and other kusala states. This is different from wanting those states to arise. When there is wanting, there is no calm, equanimity or detachment -- quite the reverse.” ***** > Thank you again for your reply. Your comments are appreciated. ..... Likewise, Victor. Metta, Sarah ====== 23581 From: Sarah Date: Wed Jul 23, 2003 2:47am Subject: Re: [dsg] Perfections. Epilogue 1. Dear Nina & All, I know the translation of this long series on the Perfections has been difficult and time-consuming for you, but very helpful to those of us who’ve been reading. Many thanks also to Kom for his assistance. There were a couple of paragraphs below which I found very relevant. ***** QUOTE “Perfections. Epilogue 1. Epilogue The Defilements of the Perfections. There are defilements of the ten perfections when attachment arises, when there is enjoyment and clinging. When taken separately, the following is explained: ‘Taken separately, discriminating thoughts (vikappa) over gifts and recipients are the defilement of the perfection of giving.’ Sometimes when we perform deeds of generosity we select the receiver or we have discriminating thoughts about the gifts, by attachment, aversion, fear or delusion. Then the perfection of generosity is defiled, it is not pure.” ..... S: The defilements of the perfections are very helpful to consider, I think. In my case, there are almost always discriminating thoughts over gifts and recipients. Don't we also encourage others to have discriminating thoughts as well? ..... QUOTE “‘Discriminating thoughts over beings and times are the defilement of the perfection of virtue.’ Sometimes we can observe morality towards particular persons, such as people we respect, our parents and so on. We may observe morality by showing respect to them in our gestures and speech, but we cannot do the same to other people. Or we may have discriminating thoughts as to the time of observing morality, we observe it only on Uposatha day [1] or a particular day we select to observe the precepts, and then we may believe that we are perfect in morality, although at other days we do not observe morality.” ..... S: I thought about just this point on holiday. The consideration and effort to help and please my mother would not have been made to other friends or strangers. I thought about the metta sutta and example of the mother’s love to her baby. Can we treat everyone with the care and attention we might give our baby or mother? And then, I thought, this is just for a limited time and special holiday. Another one - when I’m tired and jet-lagged, I think it’s excusable to be grumpy or not so considerate. A special time...;-( .... All the other discriminating thoughts were interesting too, such as: QUOTE “We read further on in the Commentary to the ‘Basket of conduct’ about the defilement of the other perfections as follows: ‘Discriminating thoughts of delight in sense pleasures and existence, and of discontent with their pacification, are the defilement of the perfection of renunciation. Discriminating thoughts of "I" and "mine" are the defilement of the perfection of wisdom...’ Even when we think in that way of paññå, it is already defiled, we have attachment to the thought of ‘my paññå’. We read further on about the defilement of the perfections: ‘Discriminating thoughts leaning to listlessness and restlessness, of the perfection of energy; discriminating thoughts of oneself and others, of the perfection of patience; discriminating thoughts of avowing to have seen what was not seen, etc., of the perfection of truthfulness; discriminating thoughts perceiving flaws in the requisites of enlightenment and virtues in their opposites, of the perfection of determination; discriminating thoughts confusing what is harmful with what is beneficial, of the perfection of loving-kindness; and discriminating thoughts over the desirable and undesirable, of the perfection of equanimity. Thus the defilements should be understood.’ “ ***** I think these discriminations (vikappa) are well worth reflecting on.I’d be glad to hear any other comments. Metta, Sarah ====== 23582 From: Date: Wed Jul 23, 2003 2:20am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Update on Bhikkhuni Sangha Hi, Bhante (and Christine) - In a message dated 7/22/03 11:51:20 PM Eastern Daylight Time, sanz@n... writes: > Deare Christine, it may be very sad, but last week I attended a funeral of > a > theravatan monk and during one of the dhamma talks a very senior theravatan > monk ( the most senior Laotian monk in Australia, from Brisbane) mention > that women do not reach nirvana, that they have two ways to go to nirvana, > one is if they are reborn as MAN or if one of their children becomes a monk. > > So with this way of thinking, what change do women have to become monks. > Metta. Ajahn Jose > > >Hello Robert, > > > >Your post made me sad, using such an extreme example which can't be > >verified, and which doesn't actually seem to relate to the Bhikkhuni > >Sangha instituted by the Buddha. (In any case, my understanding is > >that there were fake monks freeloading on the system - not monks of > >other traditions). The Mahayana Bhikkunis lineage was transplanted > >from Theravada, and is recognised as having been continuously kept > >and true to the Bhikkhuni Vinaya. Why else do you think the senior > >Bhikkhus in Sri Lanka agreed to be part of the ceremony? Were they > >not "encouraging respect for the Vinaya (of which ordination > >procedures are a part)" or were they "making efforts to bypass it."? > > > > > >metta and peace, > >Christine > ================================== I found the following at http://www.uq.net.au/slsoc/bsq/bsqtr07.htm ****************************** The accomplishment of these Theris of old is that they gave living proof of the Buddha's utterance (Sam.Nik, 1, 5, 6): yassa etâdisa.m yâna.m ittiyâ purisassa va sa ve etena yânena nibbanasseva santike ti This is the only vehicle Be it a woman or be it a man The one who takes this vehicle Can reach the peace of Nibbâna where the chariot referred to is the Buddha-Dhamma. ********************************** My understanding is that there is completely accepted within Theravada the existence of women arahants. What I *have* heard is that Theravada expresses the belief that with regard to the lifetime that one becomes a Buddha, not a circumstance with which many of us need personally concern ourselves, the being will be born as a male. Assuming this belief as fact, what does it matter if a woman has to pay the price of accepting rebirth in an inferior physical vehicle in her final lifetime in order to become a Buddha? ;-) [More seriously, this restriction on the sex of a Buddha may or may not be a reality, and it may or may not reflect a male chauvinism. But it strikes me as a relatively unimportant issue, in any case. We all have been males at times and females at times over many, many lives. And I'm not anticipating becoming an arahant any time soon, let alone a Buddha.] With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 23583 From: shakti Date: Wed Jul 23, 2003 7:05am Subject: Re: [dsg] Burma itinerary, finally Hi Betty, I have a few other questions about the trip. Do you know how long it takes to get a visa to Burma if we apply in Bangkok? Is it possible to stay in Burma and return a little later for the same price? Please advise. Thanks Deanna Johnson "Mom Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala" wrote: Dear Friends, For those of you who might be interested in joining Than Achaan Sujin and members of the Dhamma Study and Support Foundation for what we hope will be a worthwhile and memorable trip to Burma, including lots of time for Dhamma discussions and a presentation of food to monks, the following information is given. The trip will go from October 20 (meet at Don Muang Airport 6am) - Oct 24 (arrival at Don Muang 18:40-6:40pm) and will cost Baht 27,500 per person, for double room occupancy or Baht 31,900 for single room occupancy. You will need to make your own arrangements to and from Bangkok, as well as hotel accomodations before and after the dates of the trip. If you would like a copy of the itinerary, please send me an e-mail at my private email address below and I will send it to you as an attachment to your private email address, which you will need to provide as well. metta, Betty _______________________ Mom Bongkojpriya Yugala 38 Soi 41 Phaholyothin Road Bangkok 10900, Thailand tel: 662-579-1050; 661-826-7160 e-mail: beyugala@k... 23584 From: Jim Anderson Date: Wed Jul 23, 2003 7:09am Subject: Re: [dsg] study question Hi Sarah, > I think either way is very fine and it just depends on how you prefer to > proceed. Maybe you don't need to fix a 'rule' at this stage and can just > see how it works out. If you're busy you may wish to post the Pali first, > while at other times, you may be ready to add some of your comments with > it. Okay, thanks. I think I'll hold off posting the Pali unless there is some need or request for it. eg. someone wants to know the Pali for a certain word or phrase. > I'll ask B.Bodhi (if there are any BPS translated extracts) when I write > on the other point as well. Thanks! > The translation to the Sutta Nipata Comy has been high on my 'wish' list > for a long time. Out of interest, is it a long text, like the Udana Comy, > or a short one? I don't know anything about it except that it would be > useful to refer to when friends quote passages from the text with > different interpretations from my own;-) The PTS text of the commentary to the Sutta Nipata is 608 pp (not counting the indices) and is ascribed to Buddhaghosa. The Udana comy is smaller with 436 pp. The two volume translation is very large because of the footnotes and the print size. There is still a lot of commentaries yet to be translated and I suppose most of them will remain untranslated into English in our lifetime. It's fortunate that some of the Abhidhamma commentaries have been translated along with some for a number of texts in the Khuddakanikaaya. Best wishes, Jim 23585 From: robmoult Date: Wed Jul 23, 2003 7:47am Subject: Re: object condition Hi Larry, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@w... wrote: > You answered my question very well and inspired me to look into it in > greater detail. When you said: > > "As an aside, the 12 immaterial sphere cittas have specific concepts as > object whereas the remaining 59 cittas are not limited to a specific > concept as object." > > do you mean the 40 meditation subjects: 10 kasinas, 10 kinds of > foulness, 10 recollections, 4 devine abidings, 4 immaterial states, 1 > perception of repulsiveness in nutriment, and the one defining of the 4 > elements? The 12 immaterial sphere (arupavacara) cittas are: - 4 Arupavacara kusala cittas (moral consciousness) - 4 Arupavacara vipaka cittas (resultant consciousness) - 4 Arupavacara kiriya cittas (functional consciousness) The four arupavacara kusala cittas may be acquired by persons who are not yet arahats whereas the four arupavacara kiriya cittas can arise only in arahats. These two types of arupavacara cittas are experienced in the sense sphere as well as in the immaterial sphere (planes 28-31 in the 31 planes of existence). The four arupavacara vipaka cittas are experienced in the immaterial-sphere (planes 28-31) only. They are the kamma-resultants of arupavacara kusala cittas. A person who acquires arupa-jhana and maintains it till his death will be reborn in the immaterial sphere (planes 28-31). The object of the rupavacara cittas depend on the kasina chosen and that is where the 40 subjects of meditation come in. Once you hit the fifth jhana, the object is fixed. The object of the first level of arupavacara jhana is "infinite space" (plane 28). The object of the second level of arupavacara is "infinte consciousness" (plane 29). The object of the third level of arupavacara is "nothingness" (plane 30) and the object of the fourth level of arupavacara is "neither perception nor non-perception" (plane 31). > > If you have time could you give us a word of explanation on Path > Condition? > Path-condition (magga-paccaya) refers to the 12 path-factors: - knowledge (panna = samma-ditthi, right understanding) - (right or wrong) thought-conception (vitakka) - right speech (samma-vaca) - right bodily action (samma-kammanta) - right livelihood (samma-ajiva) - (right or wrong) energy (viriya) - (right or wrong) mindfulness (sati) - (right or wrong) concentration (samadhi) - wrong views (miccha-ditthi) - wrong speech (miccha-vaca) - wrong bodily action (miccha-kammanta) - wrong livelihood (miccha-ajiva) These factors contain the eightfold noble path (wholesome) and their opposites (unwholesome). The wholesome path constituents form a path conditioning their co-nascent citta, cetasikas and produced rupas to bear results in a blissful state whereas the unwholesome path constituents condition results in a woeful state. Here is what Nina said in her "24-conditions": The cetasikas which are called path-factors are the conditioning dhammas (paccayas) and these are related to the dhammas arising together with them, the conditioned dhammas (paccayupanna dhammas), by way of path-condition, maggapaccaya. The path-factors which are path-condition are not merely the factors of the noble eightfold Path which leads to enlightenment, but the term path-factor should be taken in a wider sense. Path-factors can be akusala cetasikas which constitute the wrong path, or they can be sobhana cetasikas which constitute the right path. The path- factors of the wrong path lead downwards, to an unhappy rebirth, and the pathfactors of the right path lead to a happy rebirth, or, when they are constituents of the noble eightfold Path, they lead to deliverance from the cycle of birth and death. I am on the road, so I don't have all my books with me. If you want more details, you may have to wait until the weekend. Metta, Rob M :-) 23586 From: robmoult Date: Wed Jul 23, 2003 7:58am Subject: Re: [dsg] Apologies (and Godel) Hi Howard, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Rob, you write "There is no 'self' with 'objective observer' status. > The stream of nama-rupa called 'Rob' is not separate from 'the world', rather > it is part of 'the world'; subject to the same set of rules." I agree with you > on this, Rob. Moreover, from my phenomenalist perspective, matters are even > more complex. As much as "I" am part of "the world", and impact it, "the world" > is part of "me". There is "my world", and there is "another world" for every > other sentient being (namarupic stream), and these all interact and > interpenetrate like mirrors placed at the interstices of Indra's net, each reflecting all > the others - reflections within reflections within reflections ... ad > infinitum. Where is there a stand for an "objective observer"? Where is there a place > to stand? There is none, neither within the whole nor without. When the "I" > slips away, it is like the world slipping away from under one's feet. No > anchor. No foothold. No place to stand. The full realization of "no place to stand" > and letting go of the "need" for such a place is, perhaps, what liberation is > about. > The akusala cetasika mana is attachment to the idea that there is a division between "self" and "world" (and where there is division, there is implicit comparison between the two). Perhaps this is where I have a problem with your "...there is 'my world', and there is 'another world' for every other sentient being (namarupic stream)...". My gut tells me that there is only one world and all sentient beings (namarupic streams) are part of it. I suspect that the notion that there are 'multiple worlds' is mana at work. But looking on the bright side, even the Sotapanna, Sakadagmi and Anagami have not managed to eliminate mana; only the Arahant can eliminate mana :-) Comments, Metta, Rob M :-) 23587 From: cetasika Date: Wed Jul 23, 2003 7:49am Subject: Re: Right Effort Dear Robmoult Sir, Thanks a lot for devoting so much time and effort for me. (1) How is one to differentiate kusala kamma from pleasant sense pleasures,ie, mental pleasures. (2)Should one look for surroundings perceived as more compatible to his personality or try to get rid of the unpleasant sensations with equanimity, which his present circumstances are generating. (3)Is a chess lover,deeply absorbed in a chess puzzle, doing kusala kamma and, is his love for chess different from your love for teaching dhamma? Metta 23588 From: robmoult Date: Wed Jul 23, 2003 8:38am Subject: RobM's 24hr deadline (was Re: Right Effort) Hi Sarah, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > Without questioning what you write here, I want to share with you a few > comments from one of our recent discussions with A.Sujin on kamma, kamma > patha and vipaka while it's still fresh in my memory. This follows on from > previous discussions about kamma bringing results . > > In brief, A.Sujin stressed: > - only the 10 kamma-patha bring rebirth consciousnes and all vipaka after > rebirth. > - other kusala and akusala cittas in the javana process don't bring > results. For example now, putting sugar in the tea or gardening - of > course there are kilesa, but no results. This is significantly different from my understanding. Nyanatiloka defines kamma-patha as follows: kamma-patha: 'course of action', is a name for the group of 10 kinds of either unwholesome or wholesome actions, viz. I. The tenfold unwholesome courses of action (akusala-kamma-patha): - 3 bodily actions: killing, stealing, unlawful sexual intercourse; - 4 verbal actions: lying, slandering, rude speech, foolish babble; - 3 mental actions: covetousness, ill-will, evil views. Unwholesome mental courses of action comprise only extreme forms of defiled thought: the greedy wish to appropriate others' property, the hateful thought of harming others, and pernicious views. Milder forms of mental defilement are also unwholesome, but do not constitute 'courses of action'. II. The tenfold wholesome course of action (kusala-kamma-patha): - 3 bodily actions: avoidance of killing, stealing, unlawful sexual intercourse; - 4 verbal actions: avoidance of lying, slandering, rude speech, foolish babble; i.e. true, conciliatory, mild, and wise speech; - 3 mental actions: unselfishness, good-will, right views. Both lists occur repeatedly, e.g. in A. X, 28, 176; M. 9; they are explained in detail in M. 114, and in Com. to M. 9 (R. Und., p. 14), Atthasalini Tr. I, 126ff. My understanding of what Nyanatiloka means by "Milder forms of mental defilement are also unwholesome, but do not constitute 'courses of action'" is that 'courses of action' are strong enough to condition rebirth linking consciousness whereas milder forms of mental defilement can only condition future vipaka during a course of existence (current existence or future existence). Nyanatiloka gives a number of textual reference at the end of his defintion. I suspect that one of these might shed some light on this issue. Sarah, I am away from my books right now. Could you check one or more of these references and let me know what they say? I can check more on Sunday. Does the CMA have anything to say about this (I don't have my copy with me)? Metta, Rob M :-) 23589 From: robmoult Date: Wed Jul 23, 2003 9:17am Subject: Re: Right Effort Hi Cetasika, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "cetasika" wrote: > (1) How is one to differentiate kusala kamma from pleasant sense > pleasures,ie, mental pleasures. Good question! Each mental state (citta) is associated with unpleasant feeling, pleasant feeling or neutral feeling. Any citta associated with unpleasant feeling is always bad (akusala). Those are the easy ones to pick out. Unfortunately, pleasant feeling and neutral feeling can arise with both good and bad cittas. The way to differentiate between good and bad cittas when accompanied by pleasant or neutral feeling is to observe the associated mental factors (cetasikas). Good cittas have a completely different set of associated mental factors when compared to bad cittas. Here is an extended example to illustrate six differences. Mr. A and Mr. B went to a Dhamma talk. After the Dhamma talk, Mr. A said, "I enjoyed listening to the Dhamma talk". Mr. B said, "I listened to the Dhamma talk with joy." Let us consider the difference in the mental states between Mr. A (bad, with attachment) and Mr. B (good). Tranquility =========== Mr. A remembers the amusing stories from the Dhamma talk. His pleasant feeling is mixed with excitement and agitation (uddhacca). Mr. B has a tranquil happiness. He is suffused with a warm feeling from being in the presence of something truly beautiful. Mr. B is patient to listen to the Dhamma so that he will have more understanding of his life. He has no anxieties, "Do I have enough progress in the Dhamma" because he knows it all depends on conditions. He does not forget the goal of the teachings. Agility / Lightness / Buoyancy ============================== For Mr. A, the Dhamma talk is finished; "the show is over". There are conditions for apathy, sloth and torpor. Mr. B leaves the Dhamma talk inspired to take positive action. His mind is ready to quickly seize an opportunity for kusala actions. Elasticity / Pliancy ==================== Mr. A focuses on his enjoyment of the experience. His focus in not on himself, not on the Dhamma. There is a strong sense of mana (conceit). Mr. B focuses on the application of the Dhamma. His mind is naturally spreading the Dhamma learned to aspects of his life. Adaptability / Wieldiness / Workableness ======================================== Though Mr. A enjoyed the Dhamma talk overall, his "review" would say that there were more "fun parts" (lobha) than "boring parts" (dosa). His mind classifies portions of the talk as either good or bad. He rigidly classifies portions of the talk into one of two categories thereby making his mind less workable. Mr. B leaves the talk with an even balance of muduta (pliancy); not too little so as to resist changing his mind, not too much so as to have the impressions of the Dhamma overwritten by the next sensation. Proficiency =========== Mr. A is now feeling dukkha (unsatisfactoriness). He misses the fun experience of the Dhamma talk. His mental state is "sickly". Mr. B has performed a kusala action by listening to the Dhamma talk and he is aware of this fact. This awareness gives his mental state confidence and strength. Rectitude / Uprightness ======================= Mr. A remembers who saw him attend the Dhamma talk and is pleased that he will be considered by others to be religiously minded. There is a superficial hypocrisy in his mental state. Mr. B is feeling a spontaneous love of the Dhamma. His intention / volition (cetana) is pure. As it is cetana that determines the moral quality of any action, the kammic effect of attending the Dhamma talk for Mr. B will be significantly greater than the kammic effect for Mr. A. Summary ======= In reality, we all alternate between being "Mr. A" and "Mr. B". We should strive to always be aware of our current state of mind. > (2)Should one look for surroundings perceived as more compatible to > his personality or try to get rid of the unpleasant sensations with > equanimity, which his present circumstances are generating. This is similar to the question in your previous post. Let me share with you a story. A couple of years ago, I went to the temple where I had been married more than ten years previously. While sitting quietly, I was approached by an old Thai monk who I had not met before. After exchanging pleasantries, the monk looked me in the eye and asked, "How is your meditation going?" I squirmed. The monk said, "The purpose of sitting is to sit. That is your duty. If you chase after results, you will not find them. Results come from proper practice. Just sit. Do not be concerned with progress. If the practice is right, results will come." Cetasika, I suggest that you read the Bhumija Sutta (Mn126): http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/majjhima/mn126.html Again, I have not answered your question. Getting a little Zen, you have to "unask" this question. > (3)Is a chess lover,deeply absorbed in a chess puzzle, doing kusala > kamma and, is his love for chess different from your love for > teaching dhamma? I cannot see how the chess-lover absorbed in the chess puzzle could be doing kusala. Concentration (ekagatta) is an ethically variable mental factor that can accompany both kusala and akusala. When I teach Dhamma, there is an element of compassion that I cannot see arising in the chess-lover. Cetasika, you ask very good questions. Metta, Rob M :-) 23590 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Wed Jul 23, 2003 11:13am Subject: Re: Right Effort Hi Rob and all, Pardon me for jumping in. Skillful action, action that leads to what is profitable, with happy consequences and happy results, is not necessarily pleasant to do. Unskillful action, action that leads to what is unprofitable, with painful consequences and painful results, is not necessarily unpleasant to do. In other words, skillful action can be either pleasant or unpleasant to do. Likewise for unskillful action. Any action that is unpleasant to do is not necessarily unskillful. Perhaps what is important is not so much to differentiate skillful actions from pleasant feelings but to discern skillful actions from unskillful one, to know the wholesome as wholesome, the unwholesome as unwholesome. Peace, Victor Reference: Anguttara Nikaya IV.115 Thana Sutta Courses of Action http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an04-115.html --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" wrote: > Hi Cetasika, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "cetasika" > wrote: > > (1) How is one to differentiate kusala kamma from pleasant sense > > pleasures,ie, mental pleasures. > > Good question! > > Each mental state (citta) is associated with unpleasant feeling, > pleasant feeling or neutral feeling. Any citta associated with > unpleasant feeling is always bad (akusala). Those are the easy ones > to pick out. Unfortunately, pleasant feeling and neutral feeling can > arise with both good and bad cittas. > > The way to differentiate between good and bad cittas when > accompanied by pleasant or neutral feeling is to observe the > associated mental factors (cetasikas). Good cittas have a completely > different set of associated mental factors when compared to bad > cittas. [snip] > > Metta, > Rob M :-) 23591 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Jul 23, 2003 0:11pm Subject: Re: [dsg] more on piti Dear Larry, op 21-07-2003 00:15 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > > It makes sense to me that the concentration that is the proximate cause > of insight is the same concentration that has piti as proximate cause, > in other words the concentration of jhana. We can wait and see if > Buddhaghosa has a clarifying remark but I'm not aware of two different > concentrations. Do you have something else in mind as a proximate cause > to the concentration that is the proximate cause of insight? N: I see two different concentrations of jhåna and of insight. The objects and the aims are different. >L:I have a few more thoughts on this. It seems that a proximate cause is a > citta or cetasika that immediately precedes another citta or cetaska in > a process and a proximate cause is not necessarily a sufficient cause. > In other words, concentration may not necessarily be followed by insight > but if there is insight, it was preceded by concentration. N: I see proximate cause as occurring also simultaneously with the dhamma it is proximate cause of. We can see this when looking at different definitions of dhammas. I think at the moment of right understanding of a nama or rupa there is also right concentration, right effort, etc. each performing their functions. For someone who also practises jhana and makes it the base for insight, concentration is the proximate cause for insight. We can see this concentration as calm, a high degree of calm. He must develop insight in order to understand jhana as non-self. For someone who does not practise jhana, there is also right concentration which is the proximate cause for insight. But this does not mean that he has to try and concentrate on nama and rupa. Satipatthana is not concentration. Nina. 23592 From: christine_forsyth Date: Wed Jul 23, 2003 0:33pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Update on Bhikkhuni Sangha Hello Bhante, Howard, and all, Howard: "Assuming this belief as fact, what does it matter if a woman has to pay the price of accepting rebirth in an inferior physical vehicle in her final lifetime in order to become a Buddha? ;-)" Christine: [You make me smile Howard, reframing certainly lifts the spirit and gives new perspectives :-) ]. You may be interested in this review of the book 'Innovative Buddhist Women - Swimming against the Stream', (2000), Karma Lekshe Tsomo (Ed), Curzon Press, Richmond, UK. Paperback. Reviewed by Y.K. Yau http://home.iprimus.com.au/zordon/Publication_Articles/Book% 20review.htm "In her paper ` Inaccuracies in Buddhist Women's History', Bhikkuni Kusuma turns an age-old misreading of the dual ordination of women in the Buddhist canon on its head. Bhikkuni Kusuma, a Pali scholar who received a Ph.D for her research on Bhikkuni Vinaya (Buddhist Nun monastic discipline) could find no canonical evidence to suggest that a nun's ordination is only valid if it is witnessed by both orders, the order of monks and the order of nuns. The truth is that it will suffice for the order of monks to ordain a nun. Neither could Bhikkuni Kusuma find any evidence to suggest that the lifespan of the Buddha's dispensation will be shortened on account of women's admission to the order. In fact, she found evidence to the contrary in the Commentary of Buddhaghosa, a 5th century Buddhist monk. She also argues that the eight special rules (garudhammas) that Mahapajapati Gotami had accepted on her own behalf to gain admission to the order did not apply to other nuns. This is because the Buddha had ordained his own aunt and stepmother when she was just a laywoman. It was a quirk of history that caused controversy to rage for 10 centuries. If the eight special rules were to apply to other nuns, it would have meant nuns' subservience (not deference), to monks. And that would be very contrary to the Buddha's egalitarianism." metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Bhante (and Christine) - > > In a message dated 7/22/03 11:51:20 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > sanz@n... writes: > > > Deare Christine, it may be very sad, but last week I attended a funeral of > > a > > theravatan monk and during one of the dhamma talks a very senior theravatan > > monk ( the most senior Laotian monk in Australia, from Brisbane) mention > > that women do not reach nirvana, that they have two ways to go to nirvana, > > one is if they are reborn as MAN or if one of their children becomes a monk. > > > > So with this way of thinking, what change do women have to become monks. > > Metta. Ajahn Jose > > > > >Hello Robert, > > > > > >Your post made me sad, using such an extreme example which can't be > > >verified, and which doesn't actually seem to relate to the Bhikkhuni > > >Sangha instituted by the Buddha. (In any case, my understanding is > > >that there were fake monks freeloading on the system - not monks of > > >other traditions). The Mahayana Bhikkunis lineage was transplanted > > >from Theravada, and is recognised as having been continuously kept > > >and true to the Bhikkhuni Vinaya. Why else do you think the senior > > >Bhikkhus in Sri Lanka agreed to be part of the ceremony? Were they > > >not "encouraging respect for the Vinaya (of which ordination > > >procedures are a part)" or were they "making efforts to bypass it."? > > > > > > > > >metta and peace, > > >Christine > > > ================================== > I found the following at http://www.uq.net.au /slsoc/bsq/bsqtr07.htm > > ****************************** > The accomplishment of these Theris of old is that they gave living proof of > the Buddha's utterance (Sam.Nik, 1, 5, 6): > > yassa etâdisa.m yâna.m > ittiyâ purisassa va > sa ve etena yânena > nibbanasseva santike ti This is the only vehicle > Be it a woman or be it a man > The one who takes this vehicle > Can reach the peace of Nibbâna > > where the chariot referred to is the Buddha-Dhamma. > ********************************** > > My understanding is that there is completely accepted within Theravada > the existence of women arahants. > What I *have* heard is that Theravada expresses the belief that with > regard to the lifetime that one becomes a Buddha, not a circumstance with which > many of us need personally concern ourselves, the being will be born as a > male. Assuming this belief as fact, what does it matter if a woman has to pay the > price of accepting rebirth in an inferior physical vehicle in her final > lifetime in order to become a Buddha? ;-) [More seriously, this restriction on the > sex of a Buddha may or may not be a reality, and it may or may not reflect a > male chauvinism. But it strikes me as a relatively unimportant issue, in any > case. We all have been males at times and females at times over many, many > lives. And I'm not anticipating becoming an arahant any time soon, let alone a > Buddha.] > > With metta, > Howard > 23593 From: connie Date: Wed Jul 23, 2003 0:52pm Subject: Re: Perfections. Epilogue 1. Nina, Kom, Sarah and All ~ Yes, thank you for the series on the Perfections. On the Defilements of the Perfections, for those who have more discriminating tastes and would prefer not to read an excerpt from the Lotus Sutra, please skip the rest of this post. To the rest, I apologize for the length but I really like this and and had a hard time deciding where to draw the line. Maybe the hikers will appreciate it next time they find themselves standing in a dharma rain. peace, connie This beneficent cloud is laden with moisture, the lightening gleams and flashes, and the sound of thunder reverberates afar, causing the multitude to rejoice. The sun's rays are veiled and hidden, a clear coolness comes over the land; masses of darkness descend and spread- you can almost touch them. The rain falls everywhere, coming down on all four sides, its flow and saturation are measureless, reaching to every area of the earth, to the ravines and valleys of the mountains and streams, to the remote and secluded places where grow plants, bushes, medicinal herbs, trees large and small, a hundred grains, rice seedlings, sugar cane, grape vines. The rain moistens them all, none fails to receive its full share, the parched ground is everywhere watered, herbs and trees alike grow lush. What falls from the cloud is water of a single flavor, but the plants and trees, thickets and groves, each accept the moisture that is appropriate to its portion. All the various trees, whether superior, middling or inferior, take what is fitting for large or small and each is enabled to sprout and grow. Root, stem, limb, leaf, the glow and hue of flower and fruit- one rain extends to them and all are able to become fresh and glossy, whether their allotment of substance, form and nature is large or small, the moistening they receive is one, but each grows and flourishes in its own way. The Buddha is like this when he appears in the world, comparable to a great cloud that covers all things everywhere, Having appeared in the world, for the sake of living beings he makes distinctions in expounding the truth regarding phenomena. The great sage, the World-Honored One, to heavenly and human beings, in the midst of all beings, pronounces these words: I am the Thus Come One, most honored of two-legged beings. I appear in the world like a great cloud that showers moisture upon all the dry and withered living beings, so that all are able to escape suffering, gain the joy of peace and security, the joys of this world and the joy of nirvana. All you heavenly and human beings of this assembly, listen carefully and with one mind! All of you should gather around and observe the one of unexcelled honor. I am the World-Honored One, none can rival me. In order to bring peace and security to living beings I have appeared it the world and for the sake of this great assembly I preach the sweet dew of the pure Law. This Law is of a single flavor, that of emancipation, nirvana. With a single wonderful sound I expound and unfold its meaning; constantly for the sake of the Great Vehicle I create causes and conditions. I look upon all things as being universally equal, I have no mind to favor this or that, to love one or hate another. I am without greed or attachment and without limitation or hindrance. At all times, for all things I preach the Law equally; as I would for a single person, that same way I do for numerous persons, constantly I expound and preach the Law, never have I done anything else, coming, going, sitting, standing, never to the end growing weary or disheartened. I bring fullness and satisfaction to the world, like rain that spreads its moisture everywhere, Eminent and lowly, superior and inferior, observers of precepts, violators of precepts, those fully endowed with proper demeanor, those not fully endowed, those of correct views, of erroneous views, of keen capacity, of dull capacity- I cause the Dharma rain on all equally, never lax or neglectful. When all the various living beings hear my Law, they receive it according to their power, dwelling in their different environments. 23594 From: robmoult Date: Wed Jul 23, 2003 2:30pm Subject: Re: Right Effort Hi Victor, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "yu_zhonghao" wrote: > Pardon me for jumping in. > > Skillful action, action that leads to what is profitable, with happy > consequences and happy results, is not necessarily pleasant to do. > Unskillful action, action that leads to what is unprofitable, with > painful consequences and painful results, is not necessarily > unpleasant to do. > > In other words, skillful action can be either pleasant or unpleasant > to do. Likewise for unskillful action. > > Any action that is unpleasant to do is not necessarily unskillful. > > Perhaps what is important is not so much to differentiate skillful > actions from pleasant feelings but to discern skillful actions from > unskillful one, to know the wholesome as wholesome, the unwholesome > as unwholesome. > > Reference: > > Anguttara Nikaya IV.115 > Thana Sutta > Courses of Action > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an04-115.html Victor, thank you so much. I owe you big time for this. As I started to read your message, the following thoughts occured in my mind, "How can Victor say that? Victor must know that the only cittas associated with unpleasant feeling are akusala (rooted in aversion)." In my mind, I started to craft a polite but firm reply saying, "No, you're wrong!" Victor, that is when I noticed that you had included a link to a Sutta (one that I had not read before). I read the Sutta slowly (I always read Suttas slowly). I then understood that you were talking about "unpleasant courses of action" whereas I was talking about "mental states associated with unpleasant feeling". One might say that I was looking at the "micro" view while you were looking at the "macro" view. I then asked myself, "Given the question asked by Cetasika, would it be more appropriate to focus on macro issues or micro issues?" I realized that I should present a balance of both to avoid confusion. Victor, I learned the following from this: 1. I am sometimes too quick to judge 2. I am sometimes unbalanced in my answers (micro vs. macro) Victor, thank you for teaching me two very valuable lessons. I suspect that I will fall into similar traps in the future as accumulations run deep. At least now, I can "post a sentinel" to try and recognize these types of unskillful actions as they arise. Cetasika, if this exchange with my friend Victor has confused you, please let me know and I will explain how we are both correct. Metta, Rob M :-) 23595 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Wed Jul 23, 2003 3:18pm Subject: [dsg] Donkeys and Desire (was Re: Anicca (Impermanence)/KenH) Hi Sarah, Thank you for your comments. I would like to correct myself that instead of saying "It is what/whom one desires for makes the difference" I should say "It is what one desires for makes the difference." Desire in and of itself, like intent, is neutral in terms of wholesome/skillful and unwholesome/unskillful. Any desire and passion with regard to the senses, the aggregates, and the properties/dhatu is a defilement of mind.* That kind of desire is certainly different from the desire connected with right effort mentioned in the following: "There is the case where a monk generates desire, endeavors, activates persistence, upholds & exerts his intent for the sake of the non-arising of evil, unskillful qualities that have not yet arisen. [ii] "He generates desire, endeavors, activates persistence, upholds & exerts his intent for the sake of the abandonment of evil, unskillful qualities that have arisen. [iii] "He generates desire, endeavors, activates persistence, upholds & exerts his intent for the sake of the arising of skillful qualities that have not yet arisen. [iv] "He generates desire, endeavors, activates persistence, upholds & exerts his intent for the maintenance, non-confusion, increase, plenitude, development, & culmination of skillful qualities that have arisen: This, monks, is called right effort." ** Both kinds of desire are to be abandoned. Desire and passion with regard to the senses, the aggregates, and the properties/dhatu is to be abandoned with right effort. Desire, persistence, and intent connected with right effort, the noble eightfold path, for the cessation of dukkha, the attainment of arahantship is abandoned once effluents are ended, defilements are eradicated, the cessation of dukkha is realized.*** Your comments are appreciated. Peace, Victor References: *. Samyutta Nikaya XXVII, Upakkilesa Samyutta http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn27.html **. Samyutta Nikaya XLV.8, Magga-vibhanga Sutta, An Analysis of the Path http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn45-008.html ***. Samyutta Nikaya LI.15, Brahmana Sutta, To Unnabha the Brahman http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn51-015.html --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > Hi Victor, > > Sorry, for this delay. You've been making some helpful comments. > > --- yu_zhonghao wrote: > Hi Sarah, > > > > Thank you for your reply and references. I appreciate it. > > > > Desire itself can be quite neutral in terms of being > > skillful/wholesome or unskillful/unwholesome. It is what/whom one > > desires for makes the difference. > ..... > I'm not sure I quite follow you here. Are you saying that if the object of > consciousness is say, the Buddha, that the `desire' must be wholesome? > Does it mean there cannot be any attachment when one thinks about the > Buddha or pays respect in a temple, for example? > ..... > >Thus the word "desire" needs to > > be understood in its proper context. Pali words "chanda" > > and "iccha" can be translated as "desire". However, each Pali > > original has it's own connotation. > ..... > I complete agree with you here. The context has to be understood, > especially if we're just relying on a translation using the word `desire'. > Perhaps this was your point above. > > Often, the distinction is clear-cut. In our daily life, I don't think it's > so simple as to say that the `desire, motivation, and aspiration to > develop wholesome qualities' must be wholesome. I liked (yet another) > pithy paragraph of Ken H's (to Howard): > ***** > "What is essential is an appreciation of the benefits of calm, equanimity, > detachment and other kusala states. > > This is different from wanting those states to arise. > When there is wanting, there is no calm, equanimity or detachment - - quite > the reverse." > ***** > > Thank you again for your reply. Your comments are appreciated. > ..... > Likewise, Victor. > > Metta, > > Sarah 23596 From: rjkjp1 Date: Wed Jul 23, 2003 3:47pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Update on Bhikkhuni Sangha --Venerable: last week I attended a funeral of a >>theravatan monk and during one of the dhamma talks a very senior theravatan monk ( the most senior Laotian monk in Australia, from Brisbane) >mention that women do not reach nirvana, that they have two ways to go to nirvana, >>one is if they are reborn as MAN or if one of their children becomes a monk. >>So with this way of thinking, what change do women have to become monks. Metta. Ajahn Jose -______________ Dear Venerable Ajahn Jose, With all due respect to the venerable bhikkhu I believe this is not correct. A whole book of the Tipitaka (as howard mentions) is the therigatha which is about arahant woman. The commentaries also talk about kotis (thousands) of woman attaining all stages of enlightenment. __________________________________________________ CHristine: You may be interested in this review of the >book 'Innovative Buddhist Women - Swimming against the Stream', (2000), Karma Lekshe Tsomo (Ed), Curzon Press, Richmond, UK. Paperback. >>Reviewed by Y.K. Yau >>http://home.iprimus.com.au/zordon/Publication_Articles/Book% 20review.htm >>"In her paper ` Inaccuracies in Buddhist Women's History', Bhikkuni >>Kusuma turns an age-old misreading of the dual ordination of women in the Buddhist canon on its head. Bhikkuni >>Kusuma, a Pali scholar who received a Ph.D for her research on Bhikkuni Vinaya (Buddhist Nun monastic discipline) could find no >>canonical evidence to suggest that a nun's ordination is only valid if it is witnessed by both orders, the order of monks and >>the order of nuns. The truth is that it will suffice for the order of monks to ordain a nun. >>Neither could Bhikkuni Kusuma find any evidence to suggest that the lifespan of the Buddha's dispensation will be shortened >>on account of women's admission to the order. In fact, she found evidence to the contrary in the Commentary of Buddhaghosa, a 5th >>century Buddhist monk. She also argues that the eight special rules (garudhammas) that Mahapajapati Gotami had accepted on her own behalf >>to gain admission to the order did not apply to other nuns. This is because the Buddha had ordained his own aunt and stepmother when she was just a laywoman. >>It was a quirk of history that caused controversy to >>rage for 10 centuries. If the eight special rules were to apply to other nuns, it would have meant nuns' subservience (not deference), to monks. And that would be very contrary to the Buddha's >>egalitarianism." metta and peace, Christine __________________ This sutta is in the Anguttara Nikàya. Note that Mahapajapati was given higher ordination directly by the Buddha there and then, and that the sutta also mentions those (other woman) who will be preparing for higher ordination: "A trainee bhikkhuni should spend two rains observing the six precepts and be accomplished for the higher ordination, in the presence of both Communities, bhikkhus and bhikkhunis." Gotamãvaggo- Gotamisuttaü- To Gotàmi. """Ananda, if Mahapajapati Gotami accepts these eight strong rules, that will be her higher ordination: ßA bhikkhuni with one hundred rains should worship, attend willingly, revere with clasped hands and exchange friendly greetings with a bhikkhu who has just attained higher ordination. This rule should be honoured, revered, esteemed and should not be thrown out until life lasts. A bhikkhuni should not observe the rains in a monastery where there are no bhikkhus. This rule should be honoured, revered, esteemed and should not be thrown out until life lasts. Every fortnight the bhikkhuni should approach the Community of bhikkhus to beg for two things. To know the day of recital of the full moon observances for confession and for advice. This rule should be honoured, revered, esteemed and should not be thrown out until life lasts. A bhikkhuni should emerge from the rains observances, by seeing or hearing or clearing suspicions in the presence of both Communities, bhikkhus and bhikkhunis. This rule should be honoured, revered, esteemed and should not be thrown out until life lasts. A bhikkhuni guilty of transgressing the strong rules should atone it, in the presence of both Communities, bhikkhus and bhikkhunis. This rule should be honoured, revered, esteemed and should not be thrown out until life lasts. A trainee bhikkhuni should spend two rains observing the six precepts and be accomplished for the higher ordination, in the presence of both Communities, bhikkhus and bhikkhunis. This rule should be honoured, revered, esteemed and should not be thrown out until life lasts. A bhikkhuni should not abuse a bhikkhu for any reason. This rule should be honoured, revered, esteemed and should not be thrown out until life lasts. From today the words of the bhikkhunis are obstructed to the bhikkhus. The words of the bhikkhus are not obstructed to the bhikkhunis This rule should be honoured, revered, esteemed and should not be thrown out until life lasts. Ananda, if Mahapajapati Gotami accepts these eight strong rules, that will be her higher ordination:" Venerable Ananda, learning these eight strong rules in the presence of The Blessed One approached Mahapajapati Gotami and said: ßGotami, if you accept these eight strong rules, that will be your higher ordination: ßA bhikkhuni with one hundred rains should worship, attend willingly, revere with clasped hands and exchange friendly greetings with a bhikkhu who has just attained higher ordination. This rule should be honoured, revered, esteemed and should not be thrown out until life lasts. A bhikkhuni should not observe the rains in a monastery where there are no bhikkhus. This rule should be honoured, revered, esteemed and should not be thrown out until life lasts. Every fortnight the bhikkhuni should approach the Community of bhikkhus to beg for two things. To know the day of recital of the full moon observances for confession and for advice. This rule should be honoured, revered, esteemed and should not be thrown out until life lasts. A bhikkhuni should emerge from the rains observances, by seeing or hearing or clearing suspicions in the presence of both Communities, bhikkhus and bhikkhunis. This rule should be honoured, revered, esteemed and should not be thrown out until life lasts. A bhikkhuni guilty of transgressing the strong rules should atone it, in the presence of both Communities, bhikkhus and bhikkhunis. This rule should be honoured, revered, esteemed and should not be thrown out until life lasts. A trainee bhikkhuni should spend two rains observing the six precepts and be accomplished for the higher ordination, in the presence of both Communities, bhikkhus and bhikkhunis. This rule should be honoured, revered, esteemed and should not be thrown out until life lasts. A bhikkhuni should not abuse a bhikkhu for any reason. This rule should be honoured, revered, esteemed and should not be thrown out until life lasts. From today the words of the bhikkhunis are obstructed to the bhikkhus. The words of the bhikkhus are not obstructed to the bhikkhunis This rule should be honoured, revered, esteemed and should not be thrown out until life lasts. Gotami if you accept these eight strong rules, that same will be your higher ordination:" ß Venerable sir, Ananda, just as a young man, woman, or child who has washed his head was to receive a garland of flowers of blue lotuses, jasmines or a very attractive garland of flowers would accept it, with both hands and would place it on his head. In that same manner I accept the eight strong rules, not to throw out until life lasts. Then venerable Ananda approached The Blessed One, worshipped, sat on a side and said: Venerable sir, Mahapajapati Gotami has accepted the eight strong rules, not to throw out until life lasts." ßAnanda, if women did not obtain the going forth from the household as homeless, in the dispensation of the Thus Gone One, the dispensation would have lasted longer a thousand years Ananda, as women have obtined the going forth from the household to become homeless, it will not last long, the good Teaching will last only five hundred years Ananda, just as families which have more women and few men are attacked by robbers and cheaters in the same manner in a dispensation in which there is the going forth for women, the holy life does not last long Ananda, just as in an accomplished rice field, there falls an illness named white seeds and it does not last long. In the same manner in a dispensation in which there is the going forth for women, the holy life does not last long. Ananda, just as in an accomplished cane field, there comes an illness named turning red and it does not last long. In the same manner in a dispensation in which there is the going forth for women, the holy life does not last long. Ananda, just as a man was to build an embankment as a future protection for a huge reservoir, so that water would not reach over the boundary these eight strong rules are declared to the bhikkhunis not to be thrown out until life lasts, as future protection."" ___http://www.metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/4Anguttara- Nikaya/Anguttara5/8-atthakanipata/006-gotamivaggo-e.htm robertK_______ 23597 From: Date: Wed Jul 23, 2003 3:53pm Subject: Vism. XIV, 1 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) XIV 1. Now concentration was described under the heading of "Consciousness" in the stanza. 'When a wise man, established well in Virtue, develops Consciousness and understanding'. And that has been developed in all its aspects by the bhikkhu who is thus possessed of the more advanced development of concentration that has acquired with direct-knowledge the benefits. But "Understanding" comes next. And that has yet to be developed. Now that is not easy, firstly even to know about, let alone to develop, when it is taught very briefly. In order, therefore, to deal with the detailed method of its development there is the following set of questions: (i) What is understanding? (ii) In what sense is it understanding? (iii) What are its characteristic, function, manifestation, and proximate cause? (iv) How many kinds of understanding are there? (v) How is it developed? (vi) What are the benefits of developing understanding? 23598 From: Date: Wed Jul 23, 2003 0:10pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Apologies (and Godel) Hi, Rob - In a message dated 7/23/03 10:59:51 AM Eastern Daylight Time, rob.moult@j... writes: > Hi Howard, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > > Rob, you write "There is no 'self' with 'objective > observer' status. > >The stream of nama-rupa called 'Rob' is not separate from 'the > world', rather > >it is part of 'the world'; subject to the same set of rules." I > agree with you > >on this, Rob. Moreover, from my phenomenalist perspective, matters > are even > >more complex. As much as "I" am part of "the world", and impact > it, "the world" > >is part of "me". There is "my world", and there is "another world" > for every > >other sentient being (namarupic stream), and these all interact > and > >interpenetrate like mirrors placed at the interstices of Indra's > net, each reflecting all > >the others - reflections within reflections within reflections ... > ad > >infinitum. Where is there a stand for an "objective observer"? > Where is there a place > >to stand? There is none, neither within the whole nor without. > When the "I" > >slips away, it is like the world slipping away from under one's > feet. No > >anchor. No foothold. No place to stand. The full realization > of "no place to stand" > >and letting go of the "need" for such a place is, perhaps, what > liberation is > >about. > > > > The akusala cetasika mana is attachment to the idea that there is a > division between "self" and "world" (and where there is division, > there is implicit comparison between the two). Perhaps this is where > I have a problem with your "...there is 'my world', and there > is 'another world' for every other sentient being (namarupic > stream)...". My gut tells me that there is only one world and all > sentient beings (namarupic streams) are part of it. I suspect that > the notion that there are 'multiple worlds' is mana at work. > > But looking on the bright side, even the Sotapanna, Sakadagmi and > Anagami have not managed to eliminate mana; only the Arahant can > eliminate mana :-) > > Comments, > > Metta, > Rob M :-) > ============================ When you write "The akusala cetasika mana is attachment to the idea that there is a division between 'self' and 'world' (and where there is division, there is implicit comparison between the two)," I agree with you ... sort of. First of all, I don't accept the existence of selves. But it is clear that there are different namarupic streams, to the extent that there are any at all. What "you" and "I" experience is not identical. These namarupic streams are not identical, but they are interdependent. I do agree that there is one "reality", but within that is the network of all these interrelated namarupic streams. Also, while I do accept that there is no "division" between knowing and the known, if by "division" one means separateness and independence, I do not accept that knowing and known are identical. Subject and object are interdependent, thus not separable, but they are distinguishable. Likewise, namarupic streams ("worlds") are interdependent, thus not separable, but still distinguishable. To clarify this point further, what did the Buddha say is "the world"? The Buddha said "I tell you, friend, that it is not possible by traveling to know or see or reach a far end of the cosmos [BTW, in other formulations I've seen 'world' used here instead of 'cosmos'] where one does not take birth, age, die, pass away, or reappear. But at the same time, I tell you that there is no making an end of suffering & stress without reaching the end of the cosmos. Yet it is just within this fathom-long body, with its perception & intellect, that I declare that there is the cosmos, the origination of the cosmos, the cessation of the cosmos, and the path of practice leading to the cessation of the cosmos." I take this to mean that the world is not other than this mind and body (namarupa). Elsewhere he said "What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas. This, monks, is called the All. [1] Anyone who would say, 'Repudiating this All, I will describe another,' if questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for his statement, would be unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put to grief. Why? Because it lies beyond range." I take this to be saying pretty much the same thing as the previous quotation. In each case, "the world" comes down to being the five khandhas. But "my" five khandhas are not "your" five khandhas, and there is a different set of five khandhas for every sentient being. They interact, but are not identical. To me, from my phenomenalist perspective, taking "the world" to be a unique, objective thing "out there " which different "persons" observe differently is closer to mana than a position that considers "a world" to be a particular experiential flow. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 23599 From: Date: Wed Jul 23, 2003 4:26pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism. XIV, 1 Hi all, Would someone like to say a few words on this sentence: "And that [consciousness] has been developed in all its aspects by the bhikkhu who is thus possessed of the more advanced development of concentration that has acquired with direct-knowledge the benefits." Larry