24000 From: m. nease Date: Fri Aug 8, 2003 7:34am Subject: Re: [dsg]To Kio, clinging to self. Hi Icaro, Thanks for your friendly and patient part in this wonderful exchange. We (on the list) have occasionally talked about humor in the Dhamma (mostly absent from the Pariyatti, I think). This morning (with your message) it struck me that humor, though most likely akusala in itself, can either condition detachment or result from detachment--so not all bad, eh? Keep up the good work! mike p.s. You're really whetting my appetite for dry bones--I'll have to give Dhammasangani a try (looking forward to the new Harry too). ----- Original Message ----- From: icaro franca To: Sent: Thursday, August 07, 2003 3:27 PM Subject: Re: [dsg]To Kio, clinging to self. > Au contraire, ma chèrie ami! > > i am not fawning and slobbering about the > Dhammasangani... I am chortling with glee!!! > This first book of Abhidhamma, in my humble opinion, > is the best exposition of Dhamma I´ve ever read. At > the Mahayana branch, the Hrdaya Sutra and the Suddhama > Pundarika Sutta ( Lotus Sutra) can make a stand also > on bearing the true Dhamma flag... but the > Dhammasangani is really a landmark!!! > Harry Potter could not handle a candle of it, > anyway... 24001 From: buddhatrue Date: Fri Aug 8, 2003 9:01am Subject: Re: [dsg]To Kio, clinging to self. Hi Icaro, I must agree with Mike, you are very funny, which is refreshing; it almost makes me want to reconsider my position, but not quite. Most men who speak French to me could have just about anything they want, but not this time…;-). Metta, James --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "m. nease" wrote: > Hi Icaro, > > Thanks for your friendly and patient part in this wonderful exchange. We > (on the list) have occasionally talked about humor in the Dhamma (mostly > absent from the Pariyatti, I think). This morning (with your message) it > struck me that humor, though most likely akusala in itself, can either > condition detachment or result from detachment--so not all bad, eh? > > Keep up the good work! > > mike > > p.s. You're really whetting my appetite for dry bones--I'll have to give > Dhammasangani a try (looking forward to the new Harry too). > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: icaro franca > To: > Sent: Thursday, August 07, 2003 3:27 PM > Subject: Re: [dsg]To Kio, clinging to self. > > > Au contraire, ma chèrie ami! > > > > i am not fawning and slobbering about the > > Dhammasangani... I am chortling with glee!!! > > This first book of Abhidhamma, in my humble opinion, > > is the best exposition of Dhamma I´ve ever read. At > > the Mahayana branch, the Hrdaya Sutra and the Suddhama > > Pundarika Sutta ( Lotus Sutra) can make a stand also > > on bearing the true Dhamma flag... but the > > Dhammasangani is really a landmark!!! > > Harry Potter could not handle a candle of it, > > anyway... 24002 From: icaro franca Date: Fri Aug 8, 2003 9:11am Subject: Re: [dsg]To Kio, clinging to self. Hi Mike: Mike: "Thanks for your friendly and patient part in this > wonderful exchange." ------------------------------------------------- Pas du tout, Mike! ------------------------------------------------- Mike: "We > (on the list) have occasionally talked about humor > in the Dhamma (mostly > absent from the Pariyatti, I think)." ------------------------------------------- Despite all the solemnity of the usual Pariyatti, I can remember Burmese and Cingalese statues of Buddha and Boddhisattas smiling on freely - Pativedda! I haven´t got any intention to preach Dhamma - it´s a serious duty, that don´t give room for much humour anyway... my feelings and thoughts here are of a light sort, you see. -------------------------------------------------- Mike: " This morning > (with your message) it > struck me that humor, though most likely akusala in > itself, can either > condition detachment or result from detachment--so > not all bad, eh?" -------------------------------------------------- Curiosly, that´s the way it is. Akusala Dhammas are Dhammas by definition, but Akusala Cittani has got a strong conotation of "immoral". So, it´s a task for an applicant like me, keep ordered my train of thoughts on a line of "One consciousness, prompted (or unprompted), accompanied with pleasure, and disconnected with wrong view." (Somanassa-sahagatam, ditthigatavippayutam, asankharikam'(sankharikam´) ekam). And, at the last line,detachment! -------------------------------------------------- Mike: "Keep up the good work! > > mike > > p.s. You're really whetting my appetite for dry > bones--I'll have to give > Dhammasangani a try (looking forward to the new > Harry too)." -------------------------------------------------- Presently, I am trying to follow the Visuddhimagga´s quotes and comys, but...gosh! It´s a hard work indeed! Buddhaghosa´s Pali is very, very strong!!!! The Dhammasangani is much more simpler ! Metta, Ícaro ===== Seize the time, there´s only minutes left to zero Just got a little taste, I gotta get some more, Just me and you 24003 From: icaro franca Date: Fri Aug 8, 2003 9:30am Subject: Re: [dsg]To Kio, clinging to self. Hi James, James:"I must agree with Mike, you are very funny, which is > refreshing; it > almost makes me want to reconsider my position, but > not quite. Most > men who speak French to me could have just about > anything they want, > but not this time…;-)." ----------------------------------------------------- Relax, James! We are here to exchange views and opinions. Preaching Dhamma is a serious and hard work that keeps humour out of order. This´ not my intention, or Mike´s, or Sarah´s or Van Gorkon´s. And I can guarantee you that just here I find a real food for my pretended unique soul...and a lot of things to apply my brain (at the present moment, I find the Visuddhimagga very hard to munch)!!!! Are you travelling to Egypt ? If so, bon voyage! Metta, Ícaro ===== Seize the time, there´s only minutes left to zero Just got a little taste, I gotta get some more, Just me and you 24004 From: buddhatrue Date: Fri Aug 8, 2003 9:37am Subject: Re: To Icaro & James with metta --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > Hi Icaro (& James), Hi Sarah, Well, if I had to pick out one sutta that is my favorite I would have to say The Fire Sermon. I like it because of its colorful language (which I also use, as you have noticed ;-) and its sense of urgency and preaching quality (which I also use). I also find that it covers all of the important bases. I find all of the suttas inspiring, actually; but sometimes it is a negative inspiration…a realization of how far I have to go and where I am not...negative reinforcement to try harder. Sure, I may post some things about my experiences in Egypt but I think they might be very out of place in this group. This is a dhamma study group of a very high and esoteric level, tales of common, everyday dhamma experiences will be very odd…but I guess that has never stopped me before! ;-). Metta, James 24005 From: buddhatrue Date: Fri Aug 8, 2003 10:23am Subject: Re: [dsg]To Kio, clinging to self. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, icaro franca wrote: > Hi James, > James:"I must agree with Mike, you are very funny, > which is > > refreshing; it > > almost makes me want to reconsider my position, but > > not quite. Most > > men who speak French to me could have just about > > anything they want, > > but not this time…;-)." > > ----------------------------------------------------- > > Relax, James! > We are here to exchange views and opinions. > Preaching Dhamma is a serious and hard work that keeps > humour out of order. This´ not my intention, or > Mike´s, or Sarah´s or Van Gorkon´s. Hi Icaro, No, they are all bent on destroying me!!! Hehehe… Icaro, I am perfectly relaxed. You have to be careful with my posts, sometimes what you see is not what you see. Maybe you should read some of my past posts, it is pretty safe to say that I am as much a character as you are. Though I see you as more the raucous, dhamma pirate while I am more the cantankerous, wandering ascetic…;-). Thank you for the well wishes for my travels. Metta, James 24006 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Aug 8, 2003 10:37am Subject: Re: [dsg] accumulations. Dear Mike, op 05-08-2003 14:23 schreef m. nease op mlnease@z...: >> Inclinations that are kusala or akusala are also accumulated and >> condition the arising of kusala citta or akusala citta today: this is >> another type of condition, natural strong dependence condition >> (pakatupanissaya paccaya) > > Is this condition synonymous with 'anusaya*'? Is this the sense in which > Khun Sujin uses 'accumulations'? Sorry if we've been over this before. N: Some defilements are alssified as latent tendencies, anusaya: sensuous greed, anger, wrong view, doubt, conceit, clinging to existence, ignorance. They lie dormant in each citta, and are accumulated and carried on from moment to moment. They can condition the arising of akusala citta. We can also use the word accumulation in a wider sense; all good and bad inclinations, all experiences, preferences for certain objects, talents, skills, are accumulated from moment to moment and thus are conditions for the cittas at the present time. For example, the reading of a phrase of the Abhidhamma conditions happiness for some people, whereas other people may yell :-) It just triggers off such different reactions, and it is really beyond control. All skills like drawing and painting you have learnt before are accumulated, and now you can draw and paint today. Also sanna plays its part in remembering what we have learnt before. All such facts we can verify in our own life. That is Abhidhamma. Kamma is accumulated and produces result later on, this is kamma-condition. I should add, it also falls under natural strong dependence condition. There should be the right time for kamma to produce its result. Learning about conditions and accumulations helps us to see that dhammas are without a being, without a living soul. Nina. 24007 From: icaro franca Date: Fri Aug 8, 2003 11:48am Subject: Re: [dsg] accumulations. Dear Nina: Nina: "Kamma is accumulated and produces result later on, > this is kamma-condition. > I should add, it also falls under natural strong > dependence condition. There > should be the right time for kamma to produce its > result. > Learning about conditions and accumulations helps us > to see that dhammas are > without a being, without a living soul." ------------------------------------------------------ So Kamma is only a attribute or mode of expression of the main Accumulation - that have a wider scope of definition as a concept. I could usually take the two terms as convertible one each other...but your words and arguments are sound, Nina. Thank you very much to share them with us !! Metta, Ícaro ===== Seize the time, there´s only minutes left to zero Just got a little taste, I gotta get some more, Just me and you 24008 From: Aalap Mahadevia Date: Fri Aug 8, 2003 6:31am Subject: Wisdom Publications Dear Members of the Dhamma Study Group, Hello! My name is Aalap Mahadevia, and I'm a student at Harvard College in the States. Betty Yugala suggested that I send an email out over this list about a book project I am working on which may be of interest to some of the Group's members. I am under contract from Wisdom Publications to edit a book of life stories from Western-born, expatriate Buddhist monastics and practicioners in Asia. We are seeking tales from expats with all types of backgrounds (age, monastic or practicioner, gender, time in Asia, time since ordination, etc.). This will be an entirely non-profit project with the goal of helping to spread the dhamma in the West. As you are probably well aware, there are many serious Western Buddhists who are actively considering whether they need to come to Asia to further develop their practice or if they can find what they are seeking in the West. This is an obviously charged issue which operates on many levels, and we feel that a book of real-life tales from expat Buddhists could indirectly and naturally offer a fresh perspective on this oft-debated topic. After all, who better to tell a Westerner about how Buddhism is experienced in Asia than a fellow Westerner who has "been there and done that?" Furthermore, as I have learned first-hand through my travels in Nepal, Sri Lanka, and Thailand this summer collecting tales, many of you simply have fascinating stories that deserve to be shared! If you have any questions or are interested in learning more about this project and potentially contributing your story to the book, please send me an email at Aalap_Mahadevia@H... or at mahadev@p.... Many thanks for your time - I look foward to hearing from you soon! I am Sincerely Yours, Aalap A. Mahadevia 24009 From: Date: Fri Aug 8, 2003 7:22pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Vism. XIV, 2 (Kom) Hi Kom, I guess we will find out soon enough what is insight knowledge. Could you say a little more on what is profitable consciousness (kusala citta)? Perhaps summarize the "Sila" section of the Visuddhimagga in a sentence or two? Larry Vism XIV, 2: What is understanding? Understanding (panna) is of many sorts and has various aspects. An answer that attempted to explain it all would accomplish neither its intention nor its purpose, and would, besides lead to distraction; so we shall confine ourselves to the kind intended here, which is understanding consisting in insight knowledge associated with profitable consciousness. 24010 From: Date: Fri Aug 8, 2003 7:53pm Subject: Re: [dsg] concentration Sarah: "So if the aim is just to concentrate and concentrate and be less distracted, it may be better for memorizing the text, but it won't lead to more insight. Only the development of sati and panna will do that, regardless of whether one is a jack-in-a-box or a student that sits still and listens intently." Hi Sarah, So I take it you don't think concentration plays a particularly important role in understanding. Is that correct? If so, I think I would have to disagree, but can't see clearly exactly what concentration does. This is no doubt due to my own poor concentration. I notice in the simile at Vism. XIV 4 the money changer experiences the coins with all 5 physical senses (except hearing). Maybe this is an example of one-pointedness in the sense of one object for several consciousness processes. Another example would be considering impermanence over and over again from different perspectives. Some people eventually "get it" but most never do. Maybe we could improve the prompt. You also wrote that you thought ADS related to desire and interest. Could you expand on this a little? I could see how poor concentration could be due to lack of focused (concentrated) desire or due to desire to experience something other than what is happening. Do you think desire could be used to prompt sammasamadhi as a foundation for insight? Larry 24011 From: Sarah Date: Sat Aug 9, 2003 2:39am Subject: For Nina and Jaran -Qus on sammasana-~nana (3rd stage of insight) Dear Nina & Jaran, Sorry for the delay. I’m adding some tapescript below which I hope may be helpful. Any mistakes are mine of course;-). I’ve added brackets for some translations and extra words to clarify as I understand. I think most people will find this discussion very abstruse and may wish to skip it. ***** Jaran wrote: “Now question (from Jaran): In the case of paccayaparigaha~na~na, pa~n~na understands the conditions of dhamma, what about the sammasana-~nana, what is the things to be understood by pa~na~na? Anyone, please?” ****** Sarah: This was similar to a post of Nina’s (to Jon) which I read out to K.Sujin in Bangkok, relating to the understanding of groups and khandhas. Note: Just to summarise briefly, the first three stages of insight are: 1. naama-ruupa paricchedcheda-~naa.na Panna clearly understands the distinction between nama and rupa 2. paccaya-pariggaha-~naana As Jaran writes above, panna clearly understands the conditioned nature of dhammas. The anatta nature of dhammas is seen more clearly 3. sammasana ~naa.na Panna understands ‘groups’ by understanding the succession of namas and rupas arising and falling away.“Sammasana is derived from sammasati, to grasp, to know thoroughly.” ('Survey', by A.Sujin) ***** Sarah reads out Nina’s question about sammasana ~naa.na and understanding of groups. ....... Sujin: When there is the touching of hardness, panna knows (the reality). There is no need to think of groups...... It seems like we are only talking about one object and one doorway and one series of javana (cittas). Actually there are many series of javanas. That’s why groups can appear. ..... Sarah: Because there are many processes and many javanas, so one appears at a time.... ..... Sujin We shouldn’t say one at a time, because it’s so fast. That’s it. We cannot count, we cannot know by ourselves how many there are of each. Just when it appears, the kalapa (group) appears. ..... Sarah So, like at the first stage, the way nama and rupa can be distinguished is because the processes are so quick..... ..... Sujin We don’t need to think of ‘process’ at all, because the manodvara (mind-door) appears. Now the manodvara does not appear. So this is the difference between satipatthana and vipassana nana. Because even if there is a moment of being aware, the reality does not appear as it is. If it appears as it is, the manodvara will appear. So all the vipassana nanas appear through the mind-door process. We do not count at all. (There is) no word, no thinking about process or name, but reality appears through the mind-door - rupa and nama. But, panna at that level (1st stage) is not keen enough to understand more, because it’s just the first experience of manodvara and nama and rupa. So that is the first vipassana nana, which is not enough, because there is also thinking ....(which) thinks, "not I anymore", but the thinking and ideas are conditioned. When panna develops more, the satipatthana arises and is aware of more objects - not just only when it’s vipassana nana - to develop and support the growth of panna. So the more panna can develop and see the different realities, (the more) it sees the paccaya (conditions), things cannot be different (from how they are). But it’s not just the word. For example, right now, there is seeing. It sees the visible object. There is no need to say "the visible object is the paccaya for seeing consciousness" because you see that when the Buddha became enlightened, (there was) no word at all, but his panna was so great that he could explain and tell the details of everything with his panna. So that is the second one (stage). The third one experiences different kalapas. That’s all. No need to talk about when, how many and through what..... ...... Sarah: So there’s still only one reality being experienced. Because of the nature of different javanas.... ...... Sujin: Yes, but still no arising and falling away like in higher nana. It must be through the mind-door. ...... Sarah I say OK, but it’s never OK.... ...... Sujin Because you see, people usually think more than experience, so it brings more doubt because it cannot be known by thinking. ******* Sarah: Another extract. Note : The first 3 stages of insight are referred to as ‘tender insight’ or taru.na vipassanaa. Panna is referred to as ‘cintaa ~naa.na’ or thinking insight. The higher levels are ‘balava vipassanaa’ or ‘insight as power’. Sarah asks about cinta nana. ..... Sujin: At higher levels, there is still thinking in between (other realities), but panna knows thinking and there is less and less clinging to the idea of self. With full understanding, there is no ‘falling down’, less doubt, less idea of self. <....> Sarah How can space be known as it is asabhava (without it’s own nature)? ..... Sujin: There can be understanding of space between groups of rupas, space between kalapas. it can be proved when panna is developed and can experience many groups of rupas, not just one at sammasananana (3rd stage). One group is smaller than dust. Panna develops more and more, seeing closer and closer. Hardness is just one characteristic. Usually one reads further than one knows. There is no question about how many (are experienced) because at the moment of vipassana nana, there is no counting - just seeing closer and closer. The best thing is to develop what one can know, so that one knows what can be proven first. Then there is no question about how many. At vipassana nana, there’s no counting or thinking. Still (at the 3rd stage), only one reality like hardness - smaller than dust. That hardness has now gone. There is the arising and falling away. Khandha refers to anything which arises and falls away so fast. Whenever it (the khandha) arises, it is conditioned to be different from past and future ones. It is never the same. This is the meaning of khandha. The one that is coarse or fine, good or bad, in the past, future or now. (At this stage), there is no doubt about what and why is khandha - it is anything which arises and falls away. The Mahabhuta rupas (4 primary rupas) arise together and with other rupas, (just as) cittas arise with cetasikas. Khandha, dhatu and ayatana are the bhumi (?sphere?) of satipatthana, but there must be understanding of realities first. In order to understand khandha, first there must be the understanding that visible object is the rupa experienced through the eyes, in order to understand groups (later). There has to be the understanding of many javanas and vithi cittas (process cittas) - (an) uncountable (number). *********** I hope this helps. Comments welcome. Metta, Sarah ======= 24012 From: Sarah Date: Sat Aug 9, 2003 3:01am Subject: Re: [dsg] A Pleasant Abiding Hi Mike, I had also meant to include this extract from these notes of Nina's from the Foundation series. Note the references to phala samapatti (fruition attainment), jhana samapatti (jhana attainment), cetovimutti (deliverence of mind), and vimutti sukha (bliss of liberation). I think for these terms we need to see the Pali and then, often, to read them in context. Metta, Sarah ===== Dhamma Issues, Fruition Attainment 2 2: The Visuddhimagga, Ch XXIII, Description of the Benefits in Developing Understanding (explaining who can enter fruition attainment and who cannot)states: ?All ariyans can enter fruition-attainment. This is a conclusion which refutes an argument of some teachers who had wrong view. They stated that the sotåpanna (streamwinner) and the sakadågåmí (once-returner) are not able to enter fruition-attainment, and that only the anågåmí (non-returner) and the arahat could enter fruition-attainment. They argued that only the anågåmí and the arahat could reach accomplishment in samådhi (concentration). However, even the ordinary person (who is not an ariyan) may reach accomplishment in samådhi, so that he may enter mundane jhåna-attainment, jhåna-samåpatti (5. Thus, all ariyans, namely, the sotåpanna, the sakadågåmí, the anågåmí and the arahat can enter fruition-attainment, provided they are able to attain jhåna. The Paramatthadípaní, Commentary to the Udåna, Khuddaka Nikåya, in the Commentary to Ch 1, Enlightenment explains the term vimutti sukha, the enjoyment of the happiness of freedom of the Buddha after his enlightenment.(6 We read in the ?Middle Length Sayings (I, 44), ?The Lesser Discourse of the Miscellany (Cúlavadallasutta) that the nun Dhammadinnå spoke with the layfollower Visåkha about the abiding in fruition-attainment, explaining cetovimutti, deliverance of mind (7. Thus, only the ariyan with jhåna-attainment can enter fruition-attainment. Footnotes: 5. Evenso, all ariyans who have accumulated the inclination to and the skill in the development of samatha, can attain jhåna. 6. See the Translation by P. Masefield, p. 58-62, ?But in the present case it is the Lord?s liberation in terms of fruition that has nibbåna as its object that is implied, for which reason ?Experiencing the bliss of liberation (vimuttisukhapaìisaÿvedí) means: (he) was seated experiencing the bliss of liberation, the bliss associated with fruition-attainment... The Buddha had attained all stages of rúpa-jhåna and arúpa-jhåna. 7. Ceto-vimutti refers to a person who has developed insight and samatha to the degree of jhåna. Dhammadinnå explains about the attainment of cessation of perception and feeling, which can be reached only by a person with jhåna attainment. 24013 From: Sarah Date: Sat Aug 9, 2003 3:29am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: To Icaro & James with metta Hi James, --- buddhatrue wrote: > Well, if I had to pick out one sutta that is my favorite I would have > to say The Fire Sermon. I like it because of its colorful language > (which I also use, as you have noticed ;-) and its sense of urgency > and preaching quality (which I also use). I also find that it covers > all of the important bases. .... Great choice;-) http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn35-028.html Bodhi transl: “.......Burning with what? burning with the fire of lust, with the fire of hatred, with the fire of delusion.......” I agree with all your reasons too - the urgency, the colourful language and covering all the ‘bases’ too....I also agree that if we could really appreciate and thoroughly comprehend just this one sutta, that there’d be no need to read all the elaborations in the Dhammasangani and elsewhere. They are just maps and signposts to help those of us who are ‘slow-witted’ to understand the ‘all that is burning’ and the kilesa which is the fuel. ...... >I find all of the suttas inspiring, > actually; but sometimes it is a negative inspiration…a realization of > how far I have to go and where I am not...negative reinforcement to > try harder. ..... Yes, just now, reflecting on the ‘Fire Sermon’, was a reminder of just how forgetful of the present burning we (or rather ignorance) is. ..... > Sure, I may post some things about my experiences in Egypt but I > think they might be very out of place in this group. This is a > dhamma study group of a very high and esoteric level, .... Not at all - we mostly need reminders and help in different and varied forms. I like the spice of variety and some colourful and burning sermons too and I’m sure everyone else does as well. I’d be glad to hear about others you find particularly helpful with reasons. Anyone else too. ..... > tales of > common, everyday dhamma experiences will be very odd…but I guess that > has never stopped me before! ;-). .... I think it would be great. Maybe you could write a weekly or daily series on these ‘everyday dhamma experiences’ with a relevant part of a sutta as well. ‘Reminders from the Fire Sermon whilst walking amongst the Pyramids or communicating with my Egyptian students’ kind-of-thing. You could do it very well and it would be a refreshing break for everyone from all the esoteric detail;-). Metta, Sarah ====== 24014 From: Sarah Date: Sat Aug 9, 2003 5:28am Subject: Teaching the Dhamma for material reward Hi John, Welcome to DSG --- john196920022001 wrote: > > > > I wanted to share the following Theravada Sutta that I came accross > some time ago. It's in the Anguttara Nikaya V.159 of the Pali Canon. > It's called the Udayi Sutta. This sutta discusses the qualities of a > teacher of the dhamma. .... This is an interesting sutta and you raise a question I’ve often wondered about as well: .... > "[1] The Dhamma should be taught with the thought, 'I will speak step- > by-step.' > > "[2] The Dhamma should be taught with the thought, 'I will speak > explaining the sequence [of cause & effect].' > > "[3] The Dhamma should be taught with the thought, 'I will speak out > of compassion.' > > "[4] The Dhamma should be taught with the thought, 'I will speak not > for the purpose of material reward.' > > "[5] The Dhamma should be taught with the thought, 'I will speak > without disparaging myself or others.' > > "It's not easy to teach the Dhamma to others, Ananda. The Dhamma > should be taught to others only when these five qualities are > established within the person teaching."> ..... All the points are worth discussing, but you are particularly discussing point no 4. In the PTS transl., the note to ‘not as a means for gain’, says the Pali is ‘dubbinodaya and duppa.tivinodaya’ for what it’s worth. ...... > One thing that this sutta has taught me is, why do I teach the > dhamma? It it for material reward? Money? There are Buddhist > organizations that charge a fee for dhamma teachings. The dhamma is > free. There are always extenuating circumstances. I am one who used > to charge other for meditation teaching. > This sutta has helped me distinguish those who make profit from > teaching dhamma and meditation, and those who are dhamma teachers. > Believe me I know. I used to make a business of teaching dhamma. I > just wanted to share this with everyone. ..... Your comments are interesting too and I admire your courage in facing up to this issue and questioning your lifestyle. I don’t know the answer and I understand what you are saying. My first question is whether this condition applies to lay people. Assuming it does, does it mean any centre offering Buddhist teachings cannot charge a fee? Should the fee only cover board and lodging costs? I’m not sure that I’d agree with this. I think as your comments suggest, we all have to consider our intentions (usually a mixed bag) when even sharing the Dhamma. Even without accepting any monetary reward, there can be many other ways that Dhamma is taught ‘for the purpose of material reward’. For example,in the Comy to the Sammohavinodanii (PTS transl, Class, of Minor Bases)gives the example of a monk who refuses robes, almsfood, lodging and medicine because ‘he wants more’. He wears a coarse robe, makes use of coarse almsfood and so on, so that the lay people think he is one of few wishes and a true ascetic. Then they invite him more and more and encourages them to make greater merit of greater food and so on which he accepts out of supposed compassion. “Such grimacing, grimacery, scheming, schemedness, is called the example of scheming called refusal of requisites.” Many other examples are given here and elsewhere. I think my point is that I’m not so sure it is the material gifts or ‘appearance’ so much as our intentions at any instant of speech that counts. I’m interested to hear other views about this. John, hope we hear more from you. Where do you live and do you still teach Dhamma and meditation? Metta, Sarah ========= 24015 From: m. nease Date: Sat Aug 9, 2003 8:20am Subject: Re: [dsg] accumulations. Thanks, Nina, So could I paraphrase this as saying that, when Khun Sujin uses the word 'accumulations', she sometimes means: 'natural strong dependence condition (pakatupanissaya paccaya)'; sometimes 'defilements...classified as latent tendencies, anusaya: sensuous greed, anger, wrong view, doubt, conceit, clinging to existence, ignorance'; sometimes 'sa~n~naa'; sometimes 'kamma-condition'; sometimes 'natural strong dependence condition'; and sometimes some combination of (or even all of) the above? Sorry to be redundant. On my original readings I took 'accumulations' to have one consistent meaning (aside from simply, 'something that has accumulated or has been accumulated'). Obviously I was mistaken(!) and this clarifies things. I was trying to pin down this meaning and I think your message has done so as well as possible--many thanks! mike 24016 From: m. nease Date: Sat Aug 9, 2003 8:38am Subject: Re: [dsg] For Nina and Jaran -Qus on sammasana-~nana (3rd stage of insight) Hi Sarah, Are 'groups' concepts? mike 24017 From: m. nease Date: Sat Aug 9, 2003 8:49am Subject: Re: [dsg] A Pleasant Abiding Hi Sarah, This seems to be my day to paraphrase--could I sum this up by saying that, 'sukha vihaara', pleasant abiding, means 'bliss associated with fruition-attainment' in reference to an arahanta; and something else in reference to a non-arahanta (rather than saying that 'sukha vihaara', pleasant abiding, only means 'bliss associated with fruition-attainment' for an arahanta)? mike ----- Original Message ----- From: Sarah To: Sent: Saturday, August 09, 2003 3:01 AM Subject: Re: [dsg] A Pleasant Abiding > Hi Mike, > > I had also meant to include this extract from these notes of Nina's from > the Foundation series. Note the references to phala samapatti (fruition > attainment), jhana samapatti (jhana attainment), cetovimutti (deliverence > of mind), and vimutti sukha (bliss of liberation). > > I think for these terms we need to see the Pali and then, often, to read > them in context. > > Metta, > > Sarah > ===== > > > Dhamma Issues, Fruition Attainment 2 > > 2: The Visuddhimagga, Ch XXIII, Description of the Benefits in Developing > Understanding (explaining who can enter fruition attainment and who > cannot)states: ?All ariyans can enter fruition-attainment. This is a > conclusion which refutes an argument of some teachers who had wrong view. > They stated that the sotåpanna (streamwinner) and the sakadågåmí > (once-returner) are not able to enter fruition-attainment, and that only > the anågåmí (non-returner) and the arahat could enter fruition-attainment. > They argued that only the anågåmí and the arahat could reach > accomplishment in samådhi (concentration). However, even the ordinary > person (who is not an ariyan) may reach accomplishment in samådhi, so that > he may enter mundane jhåna-attainment, jhåna-samåpatti (5. Thus, all > ariyans, namely, the sotåpanna, the sakadågåmí, the anågåmí and the arahat > can enter fruition-attainment, provided they are able to attain jhåna. > > The Paramatthadípaní, Commentary to the Udåna, Khuddaka Nikåya, in the > Commentary to Ch 1, Enlightenment explains the term vimutti sukha, the > enjoyment of the happiness of freedom of the Buddha after his > enlightenment.(6 > > We read in the ?Middle Length Sayings (I, 44), ?The Lesser Discourse > of the Miscellany (Cúlavadallasutta) that the nun Dhammadinnå spoke > with the > layfollower Visåkha about the abiding in fruition-attainment, explaining > cetovimutti, deliverance of mind (7. Thus, only the ariyan with > jhåna-attainment can enter fruition-attainment. > > Footnotes: > 5. Evenso, all ariyans who have accumulated the inclination to and the > skill in the development of samatha, can attain jhåna. > 6. See the Translation by P. Masefield, p. 58-62, ?But in the present case > it is the Lord?s liberation in terms of fruition that has nibbåna as its > object that is implied, for which reason ?Experiencing the bliss of > liberation (vimuttisukhapaìisaÿvedí) means: (he) was seated experiencing > the bliss of liberation, the bliss associated with > fruition-attainment... > The Buddha had attained all stages of rúpa-jhåna and arúpa-jhåna. > 7. Ceto-vimutti refers to a person who has developed insight and samatha > to the degree of jhåna. Dhammadinnå explains about the attainment of > cessation of perception and feeling, which can be reached only by a person > with jhåna attainment. 24018 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sat Aug 9, 2003 10:12am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: diary in Egypt Hi James, op 08-08-2003 18:37 schreef buddhatrue op buddhatrue@y...: > Sure, I may post some things about my experiences in Egypt but I > think they might be very out of place in this group. This is a > dhamma study group of a very high and esoteric level, tales of > common, everyday dhamma experiences will be very odd…but I guess that > has never stopped me before! ;-). N: You make me laugh. Tales of common, everyday dhamma experiences are just the thing we like. Egypt diary 1,2, etc. A nice break after having being entranced with the Pali texts. I am missing your letters to the starkids. Bon voyage, Nina. 24019 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sat Aug 9, 2003 0:33pm Subject: Re: [dsg] accumulations. Dear Mike, op 09-08-2003 17:20 schreef m. nease op mlnease@z...: There is much more to it. I am still at transl Dhamma Issues, and after that there is a second Bulletin which is entirely about anusayas. I am looking forward myself to learn more. It will take a while! Nina. 24020 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sat Aug 9, 2003 0:33pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Qus on sammasana-~nana (3rd stage of insight) Dear Sarah, Mike and Kom, First of all, many thanks, Sarah for the transcr of the tape, I printed it out, many things to think about. Hi Mike, just butting in. op 09-08-2003 17:38 schreef m. nease op mlnease@z...: > Hi Sarah, > > Are 'groups' concepts? >N:Khandha is a group and A.Sujin speaks about direct experience of groups, thus, realities. > I read: is no need to think of groups...... It seems like we are only talking > about one object and one doorway and one series of javana (cittas). > Actually there are many series of javanas. That’s why groups can appear.> end quote. Thus, they appear. As I see it: hardness appears, and we may think that it is just one rupa unit, but in reality it is in a group: of the great Elements and other four rupas, thus eight. And then each moment of experience: in fact there are many javanas. But, we better not think too much or count. We just know how coarse awareness is. Later more can be known, but we are not as far yet. Maybe the speculating about what will be known later on does not help us. What do you think? For now there is just this or that characteristic that appears, but a lot of thinking about it too. Another way she used to explain the third stage of tender insight: the arising and falling away is known but coarsely, not precisely, not the arising of one nama or rupa at a time. I could clarify this a little: When she says the mind-door, she means the mind-door process. Nama can be known through the mind-door, and the vipassana nanas arise in mind-door processes. When satipatthana is being developed, we do not know nama as it really is. When a stage of insight arises, nama is directly known. Then it can be directly known that seeing as nama, an element that experiences. Any additions by Kom are most welcome!!! Kom may discuss this in Jack's Bay Area group. Nina. 24021 From: icaro franca Date: Sat Aug 9, 2003 6:27pm Subject: Re: [dsg] For Nina and Jaran -Qus on sammasana-~nana (3rd stage of insight) Dear Mike: Mike: "Are 'groups' concepts?" ------------------------------------------------- Respectfully butting in: Concepts does not arise in lobha consciousness or together with misbelief - as Ditthi, for example, that is connected with wrong view. Since "groups" (Samasanna)are perceived by Panna as a continuing flowing of nama and rupa, and since no consciousness exists apart from its concomitants, both consciousness and its respective co-adjuncts arise and perish simultaneously. However, if one gets kalayanajatika (the 25 "morals"), one gets also alobha with concepts free of misbelief, and Samasanna. Corrections are welcome! Metta, Ícaro ===== Seize the time, there´s only minutes left to zero Just got a little taste, I gotta get some more, Just me and you 24022 From: icaro franca Date: Sat Aug 9, 2003 6:54pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Qus on sammasana-~nana (3rd stage of insight) Dear Nina: Nina: "When she says the mind-door, she means the mind-door > process." ---------------------------------------------------- Namely, Bhavanga. ---------------------------------------------------- Nina: "Nama can be > known through the mind-door, and the vipassana nanas > arise in mind-door > processes." ---------------------------------------------------- In the mind-door sixty-seven types of consciousness arise such as mind-door apprehending, fifty-five javanas, and retention. But there are nineteen types of consciousness such as relinking, bhavanga also, and decease that are without doors. Perhaps at this point Vipassana nana begins to "pass away", making appear the Satipatthana. I can be wrong at this level of reasoning - corrections are welcome! ------------------------------------------------------- Nina: "When satipatthana is being developed, we > do not know nama as it > really is. When a stage of insight arises, nama is > directly > known." ---------------------------------------------------- That´s because we are already at the no-door level: investigation, accompanied by indifference, and the Great Resultants arise either throught the six doors or without a door. The sublime Resultants do arise without a door. ---------------------------------------------------- Nina: "Then it can be directly known that seeing as > nama, an element that > experiences. > Any additions by Kom are most welcome!!! Kom may > discuss this in Jack's Bay > Area group." -------------------------------------------------- That´s my opinion. Corrections are welcome!!!! Metta, Ícaro ===== Seize the time, there´s only minutes left to zero Just got a little taste, I gotta get some more, Just me and you 24023 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sat Aug 9, 2003 10:53pm Subject: Domanassa Dear Group, I wonder if anyone can explain a little about Domanassa, and perhaps point me to some readings? metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time 24024 From: Sarah Date: Sun Aug 10, 2003 1:18am Subject: Re: [dsg] Domanassa Hi Christine, --- christine_forsyth wrote: > Dear Group, > > I wonder if anyone can explain a little about Domanassa, and perhaps > point me to some readings? ..... Domanassa is unpleasant mental feeling arising with cittas (consciousness) rooted in dosa (aversion). As we read in the Noble Truths, craving is the cause of all suffering. “From the complete fading away and cessation of this craving becoming will end. Through the end of becoming, birth will end. Through the end of birth, old age and death, grief, lamentation, suffering, depression and despair will cease.[jaatinirodhaa jaraamara.na.m sokaparidevadukkhaDOMANASSupaayaasaa nirujjhanti]” (SN1V 86 Johansson transl) SN, Sa.laayatanasa.myutta, 105(2) Clinging (Bodhi transl): “.....When there is eye, bhikkhus, by clinging to the eye, pleasure and pain arise internally.....ear....mind <....> “What do you think, bhikkhus, is the eye prmanent or impermanent?” “Impermanent, venerable sir.” “Is what i imprmanent suffering or happiness?” “Suffering, venerable sir.” “But without clinging to what is impermanent, suffering, and subject to change, could pleasure and pain arise internally?” “No, venerable sir.” <.....> “Seeing thus, bhikkhus, the instructed noble disciple experiences revulsion towards the eye...the mind. Experencing revulsion, he becomes dispassionate. Through dispassion (his mind) is liberated. When it is liberated there comes the knowledge: “It’s liberated’. He understands: ‘Destroyed is birth, the holy life has been lived, what had to be done has been done, there is no more for this state of being.” ***** Chris, as I’m trying (not too successfully) to limit my typing, I’d like to repeat extracts from some earlier posts I wrote which gave a little more detail. Apologies for the repetition. In an earlier post I wrote: “Just to summarise the five kinds of feeling; a) pleasant bodily feeling (sukha) b) painful bodily feeling (dukkha) c) happy feeling (somanassa) d) unhappy feeling (domanassa) e) indifferent feeling (upekkha) When there is kaya-vinnana (body-consciousness), this is kusala or akusala vipaka (wholesome or unwholesome result of kamma) and it is accompanied by either sukha or dukkha respectively. There is no lobha or dosa at these moments of pleasant or painful bodily feeling. The kaya-vinnana is very short - just a moment of vipaka only. This citta may, however, be followed by kusala or akusala cittas (wholesome or unwholesome consciousness) and these will be accompanied by somanassa, domanassa or upekkha. When I read the messages about the weather I was reminded of a quote from the Atthasalini which Nina uses in 'Cetasikas'. She's writing about how dosa (and therefore domanassa too) arises 'on account of any object experienced through one of the six doors.' she continues: 'One may even be cross with the rain, the sun or the wind. We read in the Atthasalini (11, Book 11, Part 11, summary, Ch 11, 367): ..."Or when vexation (springs up) groundlessly" means anger without reason; for example, someone gets angry saying "it rains too much", "it does not rain", "the sun shines too much", "it does not shine"; gets angry when the wind blows, when it does not blow, gets angry at being unable to sweep away the Bodhi leaves, at being unable to put on his robe; he gets angry with the wind, in slipping he gets angry with a tree-stump..." “ ***** Extract from earlier discussion with Frank: Sarah: The anagami and arahat still have unpleasant bodily feeling, but no dosa and domanassa. While there is no guarding of the sense doors, they’re bound to follow and so we can see where the root of the problems lie - not in the vipaka, but in the ‘response’. If there is awareness of dosa or unpleasant feeling now, I think it's apparent that it is not the same as the unpleasant (bodily) feeling when the cold water is experienced. Rob K gave the example of vomitting. There are the moments of unpleasant bodily experience, but then so many, many moments of aversion and unpleasant feeling about these short moments of vipaka. It can be tested out. ..... F: > 3) It seems like the abidhamma is trying to break > things down into a completely logical and atomic > moment by moment analysis, and it doesn't seem right > to me. In other words, I think you get yourself into > trouble by trying to find a unified theory that > explains reality through concepts, whereas the sutta > usages of things like kusala, akusala, are somewhat > fuzzier things that can't be broken down into > perfectly clean and dilineated atomic units. ..... S: Actually, in the suttas, such as in SN, there are many elaborations on the diversity of feelings and on the arahat’s experience of feelings. I think the Sutta usages only seem ‘fuzzier’ because they are not fully comprehended without an understanding of some Abhidhamma and commentary assistance. For example, just understanding a little about the distinction just discussed between bodily and mental feelings will make a difference when reading about feelings in the suttas. It doesn’t mean that there can be or should be a ‘logical and atomic moment by moment anlysis’ every time there is a feeling. This would be impossible and wrong view if one had this idea. It would be thinking and not understanding. ..... F:> It's hard to put into words what I mean, but what it > comes down to is it's more important that I decrease > the (unnecessary) mental unpleasant feeling that > follows unpleasant physical experiences (through lots > of daily meditation practice :) , and not worry too > much whether there is a perfect theory that explains > blow by blow what's happening each mind moment. ..... S: So the purpose is very important.If one’s purpose is to reduce mental unpleasant feeling, the path will not be the same as if one’s purpose is to develop understanding and detachment. Of course, by its nature, dosa and domanassa are unpleasant, but....what about pleasant mental feeling and lobha when the temperature is just right and the worldly conditions are just as we’d like them? Isn’t it the attachment and ignorance of to these that leads to the aversion when we receive the flip side? ****** Hope something here is helpful. Perhaps, Chris, you could kindly share some further reflections or references you’ve been considering or a little more detail about what prompted your good question. Perhaps others can add more too. Metta, Sarah ======= 24025 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Aug 10, 2003 1:42am Subject: Re: [dsg] concentration Larry --- lbidd1 wrote: > Hi Jon and Icaro, ... > However, I think the tendency to carry an object > over to another process is also a function of one-pointed cetasika. In 'Cetasikas' (p. 81), Nina cites a passage from Vism that seems to attribute this function to vitakka: <<< Vitakka which is developed in samatha “thinks” of the meditation subject and it inhibits the hindrances which are sloth and torpor (thína and middha). The Visuddhimagga states in the definition of vitakka (IV, 88): “… for the meditator is said, in virtue of it, to have the object struck at by applied thought, threshed by applied thought…” Thus, in samatha vitakka “touches” the meditation subject again and again until calm has developed to the degree that jhåna can be attained. >>> ... > The concentration that is the proximate cause of panna is also > called > tranquility in the expression "tranquility and insight". I can't > really put my finger on the reason for this. Maybe it's the > presence of the Beautiful cetasikas. Could it be that 'tranquility' necessarily implies kusala, whereas concentration doesn’t? Just a thought. By the way, it may be that 'tranquility' here refers to mundane samatha/jhana and not the concentration that is the proximate cause of insight. Context would be important (do you have a particular passage/reference in mind?). Jon 24026 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sun Aug 10, 2003 2:02am Subject: Re: [dsg] Domanassa Hello Sarah, and All, Most of life for me, whether I like it or not, revolves around feelings. When reflecting on anatta, many people have most difficulty unhitching from the idea that consciousness or mind is not "them" - I have most difficulty with unhitching from emotions, feelings. I noticed elsewhere that even those who have been Buddhists for decades, still write unpleasant things when their "buttons are pushed." I see the commonness of this emotional reaction that overwhelms us when we feel threatened or offended as a bit like being caught by a dumper when bodysurfing - one moment you're standing in waist deep water mindlessly chatting to those around, and the next you're knocked by 2 metres of powerfully, raging white water, swirling head over heels in a dumper with no way to breath, surface, or have control of what's happening. And then, it has gone, subsided. While the wave of emotion is present it is not resistable, and a lot of damage can be done while it holds sway. I've never clearly understood the place of these overwhelming emotions in the Teachings. I've been most familiar with the three factor description of vedana, which didn't seem to 'fit' my experience ... pleasant feeling, unpleasant feeling and neutral feeling. I had been reading Contemplation of Feeling by Nyanaponika Thera. The very first sentence is: "It should be first made clear that, in Buddhist psychology, "feeling" (Pali: vedana) is the bare sensation noted as pleasant, unpleasant (painful) and neutral (indifferent). Hence, it should not be confused with emotion which, though arising from the basic feeling, adds to it likes or dislikes of varying intensity, as well as other thought processes." Thank you for explaining the five types of feeling. I empathise with Frank in his attempts to do something to reduce the impact of feelings. I also wonder where Dukkha fits in here - unpleasant feeling is suffering don't you think? Most discussions in Buddhism centre on bodily feeling. One could get a sense that emotions aren't considered very important. I feel they mostly rule the world. And wonder what can be done to lessen their power? metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: 24027 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Aug 10, 2003 2:51am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Trying to understand my last meditation "Vimala"/Robert Thanks for this quote from Ven. Gunaratana (is it from a published work?). I would agree that there is no aspect of 'trance' in vipassana bhavana, and I actually find the term 'meditation' a less-than-helpful translation of 'bhavana' for a number of reasons, but that's another story ;-)). I don't think Nori sees his experience as a trance of any kind, but I think your point is the 'clarity and precision' mentioned in the passage, which suggests an absence of doubt, although I don't think it necessarily precludes doubt arising afterwards. I had a quick look at your website. It is nicely laid out and easy to get around, with some useful resources. Thanks also for mentioning this list there. Jon --- vimala wrote: > norakat147 writes: > Bhante Gunaratana writes the following about some of the many ideas > we have about what meditation is - and what it isn't. > > "Misconception #2 > Meditation means going into a trance > > Here again the statement could be applied accurately to certain > systems of > meditation, but not to Vipassana. Insight meditation is not a form > of > hypnosis. You are not trying to black out your mind so as to become > unconscious. You are not trying to turn yourself into an > emotionless > vegetable. If anything, the reverse is true. You will become more > and more > attuned to your own emotional changes. You will learn to know > yourself with > ever- greater clarity and precision. In learning this technique, > certain > states do occur which may appear trance-like to the observer. But > they are > really quite the opposite. In hypnotic trance, the subject is > susceptible to > control by another party, whereas in deep concentration the > meditator > remains very much under his own control. The similarity is > superficial, and > in any case the occurrence of these phenomena is not the point of > Vipassana. > As we have said, the deep concentration of Jhana is a tool or > stepping stone > on the route of heightened awareness. Vipassana by definition is > the > cultivation of mindfulness or awareness. If you find that you are > becoming > unconscious in meditation, then you aren't meditating, according to > the > definition of the word as used in the Vipassana system. It is that > simple. " > > w/ Metta, > "Vimala" Robert > njmc@s... > http://satipatthana.org 24028 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Aug 10, 2003 3:10am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Trying to understand my last meditation & Dhamma Molly Welcome to the list. I am very pleased to hear of your interest in the ancient Theravadin texts including the suttas, the Abhidhamma and the Visuddhi-Magga. I hope you find the discussion here interesting, and that you'll join in. I am also pleased to hear about all the positive experiences you have had as a follower of SN Goenka's style of practice. I hope you don't mind me asking a question. In the Buddha's time there were not as far as we know meditation retreats, nor the particular style of practice taught by Mr Goenka. Have you ever wondered why these aspects are not mentioned in the teachings themselves? Jon --- mollyo wrote: > Hi everyone. > My name is Molly. > I practice Vipassana meitation as tought by S.N. Goenka > I live in the United States, in Hawaii since 1992 and in upstate > N.Y. before that. > All that I have experienced through my interest in the Dhamma has > had a profound effect on my life. > Sitting the Vipassana course in this tradition opened me up to > knowing what > the Buddha tought by experiencing it directly first. Only then, > after a few > years, did I take up the study of the ancient Theravedan texts > (starting > with the suttas, then discovering, to my great satisfaction, the > Abidhamma and the Visuddhimagga). > Eleven years after my first course, I still sit regularly, I study > little, but only by circumstance rather than by choice. ... 24029 From: icaro franca Date: Sun Aug 10, 2003 3:21am Subject: Re: [dsg] concentration Dear Jon: Jon: "Could it be that 'tranquility' necessarily implies > kusala, whereas > concentration doesn’t? Just a thought. By the way, > it may be that > 'tranquility' here refers to mundane samatha/jhana > and not the > concentration that is the proximate cause of > insight." -------------------------------------------------- Jon, a entire discussion group about Jhana wouldn´t to be sufficient to clarify some aspects... if you keep your concentration - or adjust your mind aggregates to a Kusala mode ( it´s only a opinion...whatever gets it first), you´ll reach an eventually 'ecstatic concentration' that is acheived and becomes enwrapt in Jhana - Appana Samadhi - enjoying calm and serenity of one-pointedness ( samatha - tranquility). The mental thought process of Appana Samadhi runs as follows ( I am only checkin´ out my own lists): First Bhavanga,then Manodvaravajjana, Parikamma, Upaccara, Anuloma, Gotrabha, Appana. That´s the part of my own Mss. that is more muddled and out of a proper order. Only to resume, after all the process from Bhavanga to Gothabha and Appana one finally manages to reach the end the First Rupa Jhana. In the case of an Arahant it is a Kriya citta, otherwise it is a Kusala. ------------------------------------------------------ Context would > be important (do you have a particular > passage/reference in mind?). ----------------------------------------------------- I will post the complete process from Bhavanga to Appana ( First Rupa Jhana), after a complete and clarifying work on it !!!! Metta, Ícaro ===== Seize the time, there´s only minutes left to zero Just got a little taste, I gotta get some more, Just me and you 24030 From: Sarah Date: Sun Aug 10, 2003 4:58am Subject: Re: [dsg] Domanassa Hi Christine & All, Nice to chat to you again;-) --- christine_forsyth wrote: > Hello Sarah, and All, > > Most of life for me, whether I like it or not, revolves around > feelings. .... I think this is just how it is for most if not all of us. This is why feelings are given such prominence in the Dhamma and why they have their own khandha. In Samyutta Nikaya, they have their own Vedanaasamyutta too, as you know. “But, bhikkhus, those ascetics and brahmins who understand feeling, its origin, its cessation, and the way leading to its cessation: these I consider to be ascetics among ascetics....and they enter and dwell in the goal of asceticism and the goal of brahminhood.” (Vedanasamyutta, 29(9)) ..... C: >When reflecting on anatta, many people have most > difficulty unhitching from the idea that consciousness or mind is > not "them" - I have most difficulty with unhitching from emotions, > feelings. > I noticed elsewhere that even those who have been Buddhists for > decades, still write unpleasant things when their "buttons are > pushed." ..... Yes, I think we never know when the button is going to be pushed or when there will be conditions for strong lobha or dosa. I think it comes back to those anusaya (latent tendencies) that have been gathering and forming up for so long. Just like the waves -- quite beyond control. It’s better not to have expectations of ourselves or of others. So often, I find, as soon as there is any idea of others, then our old friend (or rather foe) of mana (conceit) is sneaking in again. As Mike would also say, what does it mean to be a ‘Buddhist for decades’? We think we’ve understood a little about anatta, but unless there is repeated awareness of realities being experienced through the 6 doorways, leading to guarding of the senses, there is bound to be craving, aversion and their accompanying feelings that we mind so much about on account of what is seen, heard and so on. Usually, I find, that the strong emotional reactions arise on account of the papanca, the useless proliferations following these experiences through the sense doorways. When there are any wrong views involved -- such as when there is any idea that the concepts at these times are of any intrinsic value -- the reactions are likely to be stronger still. Whilst the sotapanna still experiences the same kinds of feelings and reactions that we do, the kilesa (defilements) are bound to be attenuated without the clinging to any idea of self, I think. ..... >I see the commonness of this emotional reaction that > overwhelms us when we feel threatened or offended as a bit like being > caught by a dumper when bodysurfing - one moment you're standing in > waist deep water mindlessly chatting to those around, and the next > you're knocked by 2 metres of powerfully, raging white water, > swirling head over heels in a dumper with no way to breath, surface, > or have control of what's happening. And then, it has gone, > subsided. While the wave of emotion is present it is not resistable, > and a lot of damage can be done while it holds sway. ..... A very apt simile and a good example of anatta. And having been dumped, what do we do? Go back for more and complain, as Jon and I did today, when there are no waves;-) ..... >I've never > clearly understood the place of these overwhelming emotions in the > Teachings. I've been most familiar with the three factor description > of vedana, which didn't seem to 'fit' my experience ... pleasant > feeling, unpleasant feeling and neutral feeling. > I had been reading Contemplation of Feeling by Nyanaponika Thera. > The very first sentence is: "It should be first made clear that, in > Buddhist psychology, "feeling" (Pali: vedana) is the bare sensation > noted as pleasant, unpleasant (painful) and neutral (indifferent). > Hence, it should not be confused with emotion which, though arising > from the basic feeling, adds to it likes or dislikes of varying > intensity, as well as other thought processes." ..... There are many different classifications for vedana (feelings). When they are classified as three kinds, pleasant feeling includes pleasant bodily and mental feelings and the same for unpleasant feeling. They arise at every moment, with every citta as you know. I think people mean different things by ‘emotion’. Nyanaponika is using it to refer to various cetasikas such as lobha and dosa as well as thinking. We don’t need to try and distinguish between, say, dosa and domanassa. ..... > Thank you for explaining the five types of feeling. I empathise with > Frank in his attempts to do something to reduce the impact of > feelings. I also wonder where Dukkha fits in here - unpleasant > feeling is suffering don't you think? .... I think we all empathise with Frank and I always found my discussions with him very helpful. This is the truth of Dukkha - we cannot have what we want and what we want doesn’t last. As you say, unpleasant feeling is dukkha. It’s ‘dukkha dukkha’ which is what most people understand by ‘suffering’. Dukkha, as the 1st Noble Truth, of course, has a deeper meaning and refers to all conditioned realities which are impermanent (excepting the lokuttara cittas as being discussed which are not the object of clinging). So it may be apparent that the unpleasant feelings and emotions are dukkha, but equally so are the pleasant ones. ..... >Most discussions in Buddhism > centre on bodily feeling. One could get a sense that emotions aren't > considered very important. I feel they mostly rule the world. And > wonder what can be done to lessen their power? .... I agree with you. The real danger are the emotions and various kilesa on account of the sense door experiences. Bodily feeling is vipaka, conditioned already by past kamma. The mental feelings and emotions accompanying the following akusala (unwholesome) cittas are what ‘accumulate’ and condition further akusala kamma, likely to bring further unfortunate vipaka in future. And so the 3 rounds of vipaka, kilesa and kamma-vatta continue. What can be done? In a sense, nothing - anatta and no control again. In another sense, a lot! By developing understanding of all realities - not just of unpleasant feelings and emotions - we begin to see just how short life really is. If there weren’t the present seeing and visible object, hearing, sound, smell, taste, touch and so on, there would be no emotions. Experiences just last for this moment, as we know in theory, and there really is an urgency as James showed in the ‘Fire Sermon’ to understand the ‘all’ and to see it is burning on account of tanha (craving). Hope to hear more comments, feedback and any extracts from Nyanaponika’s wheel on ‘Feelings’ or anything else you’re finding useful or questionable. Metta and best wishes for gentle waves;-) Sarah ====== 24031 From: Sese Novelia Date: Sun Aug 10, 2003 2:52am Subject: Hello Dear Dhamma friends, I'm a new member in this dhamma study group. I'm a Buddhist. I'm very interested in any subject related in Buddhism especially the Theravada. I found this group when I read a message in Pali Group. I hope we may get benefits from our discussions in this group. with metta, Sese 24032 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Aug 10, 2003 6:31am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism XIV, 4, 5, 6 Larry Thanks for this summary of the next 3 sections. Somehow a summary isn't quite the same as the original text (no reflection on your summary ;-)). It makes it difficult to comment, since the full context is not there. Would it be any problem to go back to using the exact text? If it's a question of the preparation time, perhaps others would be happy to sharer the work. Also, the individual instalments could be kept shorter, to make it easier. Just a suggestion. Jon --- LBIDD@w... wrote: > Hi all, > > The next three paragraphs illustrate the three modes of knowing > (sanna, > consciousness, panna) by means of the simile of a child, a > villager, and > a money changer all looking at a heap of coins. Like the child, > sanna > knows only the outward appearance. Like the villager, consciousness > is > able to penetrate the characteristics of the coins. Like the money > changer who knows every aspect of the coins, panna extends further > to the manifestation of the path. ... 24033 From: Date: Sun Aug 10, 2003 3:05am Subject: Control Hi, all - What cetana can and cannot accomplish: While sitting at your desk, continually draw a circle clockwise in the air with your right foot. ("You" willed it, and it happened, right?) Then, while that is happening, use your right hand to draw a large figure "6" in the the air. (Interesting, isn't it? ;-)) Causes and conditions!! With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 24034 From: Date: Sun Aug 10, 2003 7:48am Subject: Re: [dsg] concentration Hi Jon, I wrote: "However, I think the tendency to carry an object over to another process is also a function of one-pointed cetasika." And you replied: "In 'Cetasikas' (p. 81), Nina cites a passage from Vism that seems to attribute this function to vitakka: <<< Vitakka which is developed in samatha "thinks" of the meditation subject and it inhibits the hindrances which are sloth and torpor (thína and middha). The Visuddhimagga states in the definition of vitakka (IV, 88): "… for the meditator is said, in virtue of it, to have the object struck at by applied thought, threshed by applied thought…" Thus, in samatha vitakka "touches" the meditation subject again and again until calm has developed to the degree that jhåna can be attained.: Larry: I think what you are referring to is vicara (sustained thought). As a guess, I would say vicara is a crude form of one-pointedness and I would still maintain that one-pointed cetasika manifests, grows, and subsides as repitition of countless consciousness processes concerned with one generic object. I was concentrating on this issue this morning with vitakka and vicara and I think it might be like the points of light on a computer or television screen. The more points you have concentrated together, the clearer the picture. This might be why sammasana nana comprehends "by groups", i.e., because there isn't enough concentration to experience individual realities. Because of this, ironically, ultimate reality will never be anything more than a concept for us. However, I don't think it is necessary to discriminate ultimate realities in order to realize the end of suffering. In the suttas that point of realization just happens. There is nothing like "aHA, I just experienced a single rupa!" As to the issue of whether the proximate cause of insight is tranquil, I don't have a sutta reference, but would welcome one. I think we are in agreement that tranquility itself is a manifestation of the matrix of kusala cittas and cetasikas, specifially the absence of the hindrances. By abhidhamma logic, panna will not arise unless the beaitiful universal cetasikas arise. So I would say there is the tranquility. However, one thing that is not in the abhidhamma (that I know of) is that panna will not arise unless there is a high degree of concentration. I'm speculating that this could happen almost instantaneously. I think there is more to concentration than meets the eye. So I'm looking forward to greater enlightenment on this issue. Any ideas? Larry 24035 From: Date: Sun Aug 10, 2003 7:56am Subject: Re: [dsg] concentration Icaro: "I will post the complete process from Bhavanga to Appana ( First Rupa Jhana), after a complete and clarifying work on it !!!!" Hi Icaro, I am interested in this. When you post it could you translate and explain, briefly, the terms? Thanks. Larry 24036 From: Date: Sun Aug 10, 2003 8:16am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism XIV, 4, 5, 6 Hi Jon, Regarding the superiority of copies over summaries there are several issues: 1. Some topics stretch over several paragraphs and any given paragraph doesn't contain a particularly discussion-worthy point. So the solution is either a short summary or long email. I'm not a good typist, so this can pose some difficulties. 2. Copywrite issues. I don't know if we could get away with typing out all 838 pages. 3. I think people who have the book have to lead the way in discussions. If there is some point that needs a direct quote, they could make it. 4. Everyone who is interested in this study program should buy the book. 5. No one is discussing either way. Any ideas on how to increase participation? Larry ---------------------- Jon: Larry Thanks for this summary of the next 3 sections. Somehow a summary isn't quite the same as the original text (no reflection on your summary ;-)). It makes it difficult to comment, since the full context is not there. Would it be any problem to go back to using the exact text? If it's a question of the preparation time, perhaps others would be happy to sharer the work. Also, the individual instalments could be kept shorter, to make it easier. Just a suggestion. Jon 24037 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Sun Aug 10, 2003 8:19am Subject: Re: Control Hi Howard, Hmmmm, would it be a manisfestation of the characteristics of "no- control"? Peace, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, all - > > What cetana can and cannot accomplish: While sitting at your desk, > continually draw a circle clockwise in the air with your right foot. ("You" > willed it, and it happened, right?) Then, while that is happening, use your right > hand to draw a large figure "6" in the the air. (Interesting, isn't it? ;-)) > Causes and conditions!! > > With metta, > Howard 24038 From: Kenneth Ong Date: Sun Aug 10, 2003 8:31am Subject: Re: [dsg] For Nina and Jaran -Qus on sammasana-~nana (3rd stage of insight) Hi mike I think if we ask ourselves whether is group a paramattha dhamma, then the answer lies there. rgds KC --- "m. nease" wrote: > Hi Sarah, > > Are 'groups' concepts? > > mike 24039 From: buddhatrue Date: Sun Aug 10, 2003 8:34am Subject: Re: Control --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "yu_zhonghao" wrote: > Hi Howard, > > Hmmmm, would it be a manisfestation of the characteristics of "no- > control"? > > Peace, > Victor Hi Victor (Howard), Since it can't be done (but it is sure fun trying!), I think it is an illustration that there is control but within certain conditioned boundaries. Or stated another way, the middle path. Metta, James 24040 From: Date: Sun Aug 10, 2003 8:38am Subject: Re: [dsg] Control Hi Howard, Good one :-))) I laughed out loud. I guess the idea is that intention controls the kamma but not the world, or something like that??? Larry ----------------------- Howard: Hi, all - What cetana can and cannot accomplish: While sitting at your desk, continually draw a circle clockwise in the air with your right foot. ("You" willed it, and it happened, right?) Then, while that is happening, use your right hand to draw a large figure "6" in the the air. (Interesting, isn't it? ;-)) Causes and conditions!! With metta, Howard 24041 From: m. nease Date: Sun Aug 10, 2003 9:01am Subject: Re: [dsg] accumulations. Thanks, Nina, looking forward to it! mike ----- Original Message ----- From: nina van gorkom To: Sent: Saturday, August 09, 2003 12:33 PM Subject: Re: [dsg] accumulations. > Dear Mike, > op 09-08-2003 17:20 schreef m. nease op mlnease@z...: > There is much more to it. I am still at transl Dhamma Issues, and after that > there is a second Bulletin which is entirely about anusayas. I am looking > forward myself to learn more. > It will take a while! > Nina 24042 From: m. nease Date: Sun Aug 10, 2003 9:46am Subject: Re: [dsg] For Nina and Jaran -Qus on sammasana-~nana (3rd stage of insight) Agreed, Kenneth--same question, I think? I'm definitely out of my depth here--must read up on samasanna. mike ----- Original Message ----- From: Kenneth Ong To: Sent: Sunday, August 10, 2003 8:31 AM Subject: Re: [dsg] For Nina and Jaran -Qus on sammasana-~nana (3rd stage of insight) > Hi mike > > I think if we ask ourselves whether is group a paramattha dhamma, > then the answer lies there. > > rgds > KC > > --- "m. nease" wrote: > Hi Sarah, > > > > Are 'groups' concepts? > > > > mike 24043 From: m. nease Date: Sun Aug 10, 2003 10:57am Subject: Re: [dsg] For Nina and Jaran -Qus on sammasana-~nana (3rd stage of insight) Hi Nina, What is the paali for 'groups'? More on sammasana, from CMA IX 32, p. 350: "When he as thus discerned the formations of the three planes together with their conditions, the meditator collects them into groups by way of such categories as the aggregates etc., divided in the past (present and future). "He next comprehends, with the knowledge of comprehension [sammasana~naa.nena], those formations in terms of the three characteristics--impermanence in the sense of destruction, suffering in the sense of fearfulness, and non-self in the sense of corelessness--by way of duration, continuity and moment. Then he contemplates with the knowledge of rise and fall the rising and falling (of those formations) by way of condition and by way of moment." From the 'Guide to 32': "Collects them into groups: This shows the preparation for knowledge of comprehension (sammasana~naa.na) the phase in the development of insight wherein the mental and material phenomena are explored in terms of the three characteristics. The meditator first considers all materiality--whether past, future or present, internal or external, gross or subtle, inferior or superior, far or near, as comprised of the materiality aggregate. Similarly, he considers all feelings, perceptions, mental formations and acts of consciousness to be comprised by their respective aggregates--the feeling aggregate, the perception aggregate, the formations aggregate, and the consciousness aggregate." ... "The knowledge of rise and fall (udayabbaya~naa.na)is the knowledge in contemplating the arising and cessation of formations. By "rise" is meant the generation, production or arising of states; by "fall" is meant their change, destruction, dissolution. The knowledge of rise and fall is exercised "by way of condition" (paccayavasena) when one sees how formations arise through the arising of their conditions and cease through the cessation of their conditions. It is exercised "by way of the moment" (kha.navasena) when one contemplates the actual generation and dissolution of the momentary phenomena in the present moment as they arise and pass away. (See Vism. XX, 93-99). From Vism. XX, 96: "He understands thus: 'There is no heap or store of unarisen mentality-materiality [existing] prior to its arising. When it arises, it does not come from any heap or store; and when it ceases, it does not go in any direction. There is nowhere any depository in the way of a heap or store or hoard of what has ceased. But just as there is no store, prior to its arising, of the sound that arises when a lute is played, nor does it come from any store when it arises, nor does it go in any direction when it ceases, nor does it persist as a store when it has ceased (cf. S.iv,197)*, but on the contrary, not having been, it is brought into being owing to the lute, the lute's neck and the man's appropriate effort, and having been, it vanishes--so too all material and immaterial states, not having been, are brought into being, having been they vanish.'" *Samyutta Nikaya XXXV.205 Vina Sutta The Lute "...Suppose there were a king or king's minister who had never heard the sound of a lute before. He might hear the sound of a lute and say, 'What, my good men, is that sound -- so delightful, so tantalizing, so intoxicating, so ravishing, so enthralling?' They would say, 'That, sire, is called a lute, whose sound is so delightful, so tantalizing, so intoxicating, so ravishing, so enthralling.' Then he would say, 'Go & fetch me that lute.' They would fetch the lute and say, 'Here, sire, is the lute whose sound is so delightful, so tantalizing, so intoxicating, so ravishing, so enthralling.' He would say, 'Enough of your lute. Fetch me just the sound.' Then they would say, 'This lute, sire, is made of numerous components, a great many components. It's through the activity of numerous components that it sounds: that is, in dependence on the body, the skin, the neck, the frame, the strings, the bridge, and the appropriate human effort. Thus it is that this lute -- made of numerous components, a great many components -- sounds through the activity of numerous components.' "Then the king would split the lute into ten pieces, a hundred pieces. Having split the lute into ten pieces, a hundred pieces, he would shave it to splinters. Having shaved it to splinters, he would burn it in a fire. Having burned it in a fire, he would reduce it to ashes. Having reduced it to ashes, he would winnow it before a high wind or let it be washed away by a swift-flowing stream. He would then say, 'A sorry thing, this lute -- whatever a lute may be -- by which people have been so thoroughly tricked & deceived.' "In the same way, a monk investigates form, however far form may go. He investigates feeling... perception... fabrications... consciousness, however far consciousness may go. As he is investigating form... feeling... perception... fabrications... consciousness, however far consciousness may go, any thoughts of 'me' or 'mine' or 'I am' do not occur to him." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn35-205.html ----- Original Message ----- From: m. nease To: Sent: Sunday, August 10, 2003 9:46 AM Subject: Re: [dsg] For Nina and Jaran -Qus on sammasana-~nana (3rd stage of insight) > Agreed, Kenneth--same question, I think? I'm definitely out of my depth > here--must read up on samasanna. > > mike > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Kenneth Ong > To: > Sent: Sunday, August 10, 2003 8:31 AM > Subject: Re: [dsg] For Nina and Jaran -Qus on sammasana-~nana (3rd stage of > insight) > > > > Hi mike > > > > I think if we ask ourselves whether is group a paramattha dhamma, > > then the answer lies there. > > > > rgds > > KC > > > > --- "m. nease" wrote: > Hi Sarah, > > > > > > Are 'groups' concepts? > > > > > > mike 24044 From: icaro franca Date: Sun Aug 10, 2003 11:32am Subject: Re: [dsg] For Nina and Jaran -Qus on sammasana-~nana (3rd stage of insight) Dear Kenneth: Kenneth:"I think if we ask ourselves whether is group a > paramattha dhamma, > then the answer lies there." ----------------------------------------------------- As stated at Sujin Boriharnwanaket´s "A Survey of Paramattha Dhammas":"Citta is the paramattha dhamma that arises and cognises different objects, such as colour, sound, odour, flavour, tangible object or other things, depending on what type of citta arises.". reviewing the definition of Paramattha Dhammas: Real Truths: (Paramattha-sacca) 1. Lokiya - Mundane a. Consciousness - viññana b. Mental Properties - cetasika c. Matter - Rupa 2. Nibbana - Supramundane We see that Citta & Cetasika, Rupa and Nibbana forms the Paramattha Dhammas, immersed at more wide class of Real truths (Paramattha-Sacca). Groups and Concepts do lie at the realm of Citta´s mind objects, but can be pertinent at the class of Sammuit-Sacca - Conventional Truths: 1. Santhana pannatti - concepts of form, like land, mountains, etc. 2. Samuha pannatti - collective concepts, corresponding to a collection or group of things, like chariot, table, etc. 3. Disa pannatti - concepts of locality. 4. Kala pannatti - concepts of time. 5. Akasa pannatti - concepts of space, like caves, wells, etc. 6. Nimitta pannatti - conceptualized images, visualized images. So, we can perceive that Groups, despite to be Citta´s object, have got the definition of the Sammuit-Sacca - Conventional Truths. They aren´t Paramattha Dhammas! Metta, Ícaro > > --- "m. nease" wrote: > Hi > Sarah, > > > > Are 'groups' concepts? > > > > mike ===== Seize the time, there´s only minutes left to zero Just got a little taste, I gotta get some more, Just me and you 24045 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Aug 10, 2003 11:47am Subject: Re: [dsg] Qus on sammasana-~nana (3rd stage of insight) op 10-08-2003 03:54 schreef icaro franca op icarofranca@y...: > Nina: "When she says the mind-door, she means the > mind-door >> process." Icaro: > Namely, Bhavanga. N: I should add: mind-door and mind-door process. As you said, In the mind-door sixty-seven types of consciousness arise such as mind-door apprehending, fifty-five javanas, and retention. The mind-door is the last bhavanga-citta arising before the mind-door adverting-consciousness (you say, apprehending) arises. As A. Sujin explained before: insight can also realize bhavanga-citta. She said: there is nothing (nothing appears) and then a reality appears. But there is no time for thinking or counting, too fast. Panna which has become keen is extremely fast. I: But there are nineteen types of consciousness such > as relinking, bhavanga also, and decease that are > without doors. Perhaps at this point Vipassana nana > begins to "pass away", making appear the Satipatthana. N: After the moments of vipassana nana have fallen away panna has to go on developing. What was realized at the moments of vipassana nana is not forgotten, but it has to be applied. Certainly bhavangacittas always arise in between different processes, but I do not see this as a passing away. > > Nina: "When satipatthana is being developed, we >> do not know nama as it >> really is. When a stage of insight arises, nama is >> directly >> known." > I: That?s because we are already at the no-door level: > investigation, accompanied by indifference, and the > Great Resultants arise either throught the six doors > or without a door. > The sublime Resultants do arise without a door. N: I do not see this connection here. You mean by no-door level bhavangacitta. The development of satipatthana is not bhavangacitta. But perhaps you mean something else? What I liked at the end: N: bhumi: they are the objects of satipatthana (thus no bhavanga). An uncountable number realities has to be known. This can arouse endeavour, but, as you also stressed: without an idea of self. Nina. > > 24046 From: Date: Sun Aug 10, 2003 8:05am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Control Hi, Victor - In a message dated 8/10/03 11:19:38 AM Eastern Daylight Time, yu_zhonghao@y... writes: > Hi Howard, > > Hmmmm, would it be a manisfestation of the characteristics of "no- > control"? > > Peace, > Victor ======================== I think this just puts cetana into proper perspective. It is a condition among many, and is neither powerless nor all powerful. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 24047 From: Date: Sun Aug 10, 2003 8:13am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Control Hi, James - In a message dated 8/10/03 11:34:43 AM Eastern Daylight Time, buddhatrue@y... writes: > Hi Victor (Howard), > > Since it can't be done (but it is sure fun trying!), I think it is an > illustration that there is control but within certain conditioned > boundaries. Or stated another way, the middle path. > > Metta, James > > ======================== Exactly as I see it. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 24048 From: icaro franca Date: Sun Aug 10, 2003 0:16pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Qus on sammasana-~nana (3rd stage of insight) Dear Nina: Corrections are really welcome, Nina!!!!! N: "I do not see this connection here. You mean by > no-door level > bhavangacitta. The development of satipatthana is > not bhavangacitta. But > perhaps you mean something else?" ---------------------------------------------------- Let´s see... Satipatthana can be the cetasika sati or the object of mindfulness. Sublime Resultant Jhanas arise with no door, and Bhavangacitta does not arise within a process but in between processes. So, keeping the train of reasonings, Satipatthana arises within a process, being distinct by definition of the Bhavangacitta. You are right !!! ----------------------------------------------------- > N: bhumi: they are the objects of satipatthana (thus > no bhavanga). An > uncountable number realities has to be known. This > can arouse endeavour, > but, as you also stressed: without an idea of self. > Nina. ------------------------------------------------------- Right on ! Metta, Ícaro ===== Seize the time, there´s only minutes left to zero Just got a little taste, I gotta get some more, Just me and you 24049 From: Date: Sun Aug 10, 2003 8:16am Subject: Re: [dsg] Control Hi, Larry - In a message dated 8/10/03 11:39:06 AM Eastern Daylight Time, LBIDD@w... writes: > Hi Howard, > > Good one :-))) I laughed out loud. I guess the idea is that intention > controls the kamma but not the world, or something like that??? > > Larry > ========================= Yes. Intention *is* kamma. And it is the major condition, though not the sole one, influencing kamma vipaka. In general, it is one condition out of many - not to be ignored, nor to be given too much credit. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 24050 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sun Aug 10, 2003 0:33pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Control Hi Howard, and All, It is the fitting together of kamma and conditionality that seems to be all there is ... no-one to do the controlling - quite depressing really. But that's another thread. :-) metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Larry - > > In a message dated 8/10/03 11:39:06 AM Eastern Daylight Time, LBIDD@w... > writes: > > > Hi Howard, > > > > Good one :-))) I laughed out loud. I guess the idea is that intention > > controls the kamma but not the world, or something like that??? > > > > Larry > > > ========================= > Yes. Intention *is* kamma. And it is the major condition, though not > the sole one, influencing kamma vipaka. In general, it is one condition out of > many - not to be ignored, nor to be given too much credit. > > With metta, > Howard 24051 From: Date: Sun Aug 10, 2003 8:45am Subject: Re: [dsg] Control Hi, Christine - In a message dated 8/10/03 3:34:29 PM Eastern Daylight Time, cforsyth@v... writes: > Hi Howard, and All, > > It is the fitting together of kamma and conditionality that seems to > be all there is ... no-one to do the controlling - quite depressing > really. But that's another thread. :-) > > metta and peace, > Christine ======================== I sincerely suspect that what might appear depressing (or even fearful) at one point will eventually come to be seen as delightful and liberating. :-) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 24052 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sun Aug 10, 2003 1:59pm Subject: Computer symbol silliness Dear Group, (Can I blame this on Howard's incitement in his cetana post? :-)) Just wanted to tell of the "discoveries" that learning Pali can lead to. I probably should just have asked a question here first, but then wouldn't have found the unusual 'poem' below: I was looking for just what effect the wiggly line found over some letters - called a "tilde" - has on pronunciation. Not being computer literate I don't know how to make this diacritical mark, and my Pali homework to my tutor consists of typed sentences with a little note after some words in translated sentences saying e.g." wise ones = pannavanto (with little wiggly lines over each 'n')" { I have a very tolerant tutor. :-)] Anyway, when looking at websites about diacritical marks, I came across the following doggerel about computer symbols: ==================================================== "The following poem is excerpted with permission from Lee Leitner's "Viewpoint" column which is featured in a bimonthly periodical for Prime INFORMATION users called INFOCUS magazine. The original authors were Fred Bremmer and Steve Kroese of Calvin College & Seminary of Grand Rapids, MI. FYI - a "wahka" is the decidedly "proper" (by popular vote) name for the characters ">" and "<". This is in spite of INFOCUS readers of Denver who still refer to them as "Norkies". The Michigan crowd apparently has corrupted the spelling to "waka". To wit, it is - ------------------------------------------------------------ "...a poem we think is about the lowly wahka. Maybe. Well, perhaps---we're really not sure what the poem actually is about. Here it goes:" <>!*''# ^@`$$- !*'$_ %*<>#4 &)../ |{~~SYSTEM HALTED Transliterated: Waka waka bang splat tick tick hash, Caret at back-tick dollar dollar dash, Bang splat tick dollar under-score, Percent splat waka waka number four, Ampersand right-paren dot dot slash, Vertical-bar curly-bracket tilde tilde CRASH. |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||| |||||||||| Well, "waka waka" is fun to say, but I can't believe that truly geeky nerds could have allowed the confusion of two Boolean operator characters. I think you'd really have to say greater waka and lesser waka, each of which scans the same as waka waka and leaves us with: >!*''# ^@`$$- !*'$_ %*<#4 &)../ |{~~SYSTEM HALTED Greater waka bang splat tick tick hash, Caret at back-tick dollar dollar dash, Bang splat tick dollar under-score, Percent splat lesser waka number four, Ampersand right-paren dot dot slash, Vertical-bar curly-bracket tilde tilde CRASH. So, now it's an original work by me through the magic of universal solvent." ========================================================= I still don't know what effect a tilde has on pronunciation or how to make one. :-) metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time 24053 From: m. nease Date: Sun Aug 10, 2003 2:45pm Subject: Re: [dsg] For Nina and Jaran -Qus on sammasana-~nana (3rd stage of insight) Hi Icaro, Thanks--I actually know all this (incredibly)--what I can't figure out is what is the Paali for 'groups'--what does 'groups' refer to other than khandhas (which are paramattha, right?) mike ----- Original Message ----- From: icaro franca To: Sent: Sunday, August 10, 2003 11:32 AM Subject: Re: [dsg] For Nina and Jaran -Qus on sammasana-~nana (3rd stage of insight) > > Dear Kenneth: > > Kenneth:"I think if we ask ourselves whether is group > a > > paramattha dhamma, > > then the answer lies there." > > ----------------------------------------------------- > > As stated at Sujin Boriharnwanaket´s "A Survey of > Paramattha Dhammas":"Citta is the paramattha dhamma > that arises and > cognises different objects, such as colour, sound, > odour, > flavour, tangible object or other things, depending on > what > type of citta arises.". reviewing the definition of > Paramattha Dhammas: > > > Real Truths: (Paramattha-sacca) > 1. Lokiya - Mundane > a. Consciousness - viññana > b. Mental Properties - cetasika > c. Matter - Rupa > 2. Nibbana - Supramundane > > > We see that Citta & Cetasika, Rupa and Nibbana forms > the Paramattha Dhammas, immersed at more wide class of > Real truths (Paramattha-Sacca). Groups and Concepts do > lie at the realm of Citta´s mind objects, but can be > pertinent at the class of Sammuit-Sacca - Conventional > Truths: > 1. Santhana pannatti - concepts of form, like > land, mountains, etc. > 2. Samuha pannatti - collective concepts, > corresponding to a collection or group of things, like > chariot, table, etc. > 3. Disa pannatti - concepts of locality. > 4. Kala pannatti - concepts of time. > 5. Akasa pannatti - concepts of space, like caves, > wells, etc. > 6. Nimitta pannatti - conceptualized images, > visualized images. > > So, we can perceive that Groups, despite to be > Citta´s object, have got the definition of the > Sammuit-Sacca - Conventional Truths. They aren´t > Paramattha Dhammas! > > Metta, Ícaro > > --- "m. nease" wrote: > Hi > > Sarah, > > > > > > Are 'groups' concepts? > > > > > > mike 24054 From: m. nease Date: Sun Aug 10, 2003 2:48pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Control Hi Howard, Well-said--that is, that's just the way I see it...! mike ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Sunday, August 10, 2003 12:16 PM Subject: Re: [dsg] Control > ...Intention *is* kamma. And it is the major condition, though not > the sole one, influencing kamma vipaka. In general, it is one condition out of > many - not to be ignored, nor to be given too much credit. 24055 From: m. nease Date: Sun Aug 10, 2003 2:53pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Control Hi Chris, ----- Original Message ----- From: christine_forsyth To: Sent: Sunday, August 10, 2003 12:33 PM Subject: Re: [dsg] Control > It is the fitting together of kamma and conditionality that seems to > be all there is ... Of course kamma is just one of the conditions--never mind 'all there is'--aren't we concerned with dukkha and the end of dukkha? > no-one to do the controlling - quite depressing > really. Not liberating?! I can't tell you how what a relief it is to know that sankhaarakhanda (e.g.) is not self... Cheers Mate, mike 24056 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Sun Aug 10, 2003 3:31pm Subject: Re: Control Hi James, Yeah, I tried and couldn't do it. I thought it might be an instance of "incontrollability". :-) Peace, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "yu_zhonghao" > wrote: > > Hi Howard, > > > > Hmmmm, would it be a manisfestation of the characteristics of "no- > > control"? > > > > Peace, > > Victor > > Hi Victor (Howard), > > Since it can't be done (but it is sure fun trying!), I think it is an > illustration that there is control but within certain conditioned > boundaries. Or stated another way, the middle path. > > Metta, James 24057 From: Date: Sun Aug 10, 2003 3:31pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Computer symbol silliness Christine: "I still don't know what effect a tilde has on pronunciation or how to make one. :-)" Hi Christine, Sometimes ~n is transliterated as ny. That's why some people (Dan for instance) spell pa~n~naa as panya. It is also a very common sound in español (spanish). Not all computers can read or make ñ so for universal readability it is done as ~n. I make it by pressing Alt and n at the same time then n by itself. Larry 24058 From: Date: Sun Aug 10, 2003 3:55pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Computer symbol silliness Hi Christine, Further clarification: when transliterating ~n as ny in panya, for example, the y is a y sound as in yes, not an i sound as in pania. Larry 24059 From: Sarah Date: Sun Aug 10, 2003 4:25pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Computer symbol silliness Hi Chris & Larry, --- LBIDD@w... wrote: > Hi Christine, > > Further clarification: when transliterating ~n as ny in panya, for > example, the y is a y sound as in yes, not an i sound as in pania. ..... I think the closest Aussie equivalent is ‘onya’ as in ‘Onya Mate’ said with a headcold preferably to make it more nasal. My problem is fonts (or lack of) for Mac computers. I go to the site that Icaro recommended for DhammasanganiPali and am confronted with all the usual weird and wonderful symbols with an occasional letter. The fonts don’t work, so I’m left reading the symbols trying to make some sense. Same for the suttas - trying to make out ‘sukkhavihara’ for Mike in the jigsaw puzzle of symbols.... Likewise, the CDRom everyone talks about from the Vipassana Institute doesn't work for Macs and I've never been able to access the Foundation website yet. (If anyone has any solutions, appreciated, but they have to be very simple for me to follow). Oh well, just another challenge in samsara. Seeya, Sarah ===== 24060 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sun Aug 10, 2003 5:33pm Subject: Re: Hello Hello Sese, Welcome to dsg. I think that you will feel quite at home here, and I look forward to reading your posts. I hope you will say a little about where you live and any other details you may care to give. (I live in Brisbane Australia, have a grown up family, and a great dane dog - the rest of this group are spread all over the world.) metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sese Novelia wrote: > Dear Dhamma friends, > > I'm a new member in this dhamma study group. I'm a Buddhist. I'm very interested in any subject related in Buddhism especially the Theravada. > I found this group when I read a message in Pali Group. I hope we may get benefits from our discussions in this group. > > with metta, > > Sese 24061 From: Jim Anderson Date: Sun Aug 10, 2003 5:46pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Computer symbol silliness Hi Sarah and all, > Hi Chris & Larry, > > --- LBIDD@w... wrote: > Hi Christine, > > > > Further clarification: when transliterating ~n as ny in panya, for > > example, the y is a y sound as in yes, not an i sound as in pania. > ..... > > I think the closest Aussie equivalent is 'onya' as in 'Onya Mate' said > with a headcold preferably to make it more nasal. Also, the 'ni' in 'onion' is identical to the '~n' or 'ñ' (alt + 0241 on the numeric keypad of a PC). > My problem is fonts (or lack of) for Mac computers. I go to the site that > Icaro recommended for DhammasanganiPali and am confronted with all the > usual weird and wonderful symbols with an occasional letter. The fonts > don't work, so I'm left reading the symbols trying to make some sense. > Same for the suttas - trying to make out 'sukkhavihara' for Mike in the > jigsaw puzzle of symbols.... Likewise, the CDRom everyone talks about from > the Vipassana Institute doesn't work for Macs and I've never been able to > access the Foundation website yet. > > (If anyone has any solutions, appreciated, but they have to be very simple > for me to follow). One solution might be to copy and paste the book or a portion of it from the browser page to a writing program and then do a simple search and replace-all command for each of the gibberish characters once you've figured out which Pali letter is represented. Ten search and replace-all commands will convert all of the lowercase letters, although the few gibberish capital letters remaining will also need replacing. This can be rather tedious work if you need to do it often. Some writing programs allow you to write a macro with a macro editor. This would make it possible for you to write a little search and replace utility to do all those search and replace-all commands with a couple of keystrokes and save you some time. Best wishes, Jim 24062 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sun Aug 10, 2003 6:13pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Computer symbol silliness Hello Sarah, Larry, Jim and all, Jim, it works!!! --> ñ <-- :-) :-) Do you have any hints for the line over long vowels? metta, Chris 24063 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Aug 10, 2003 9:25pm Subject: FW: meanings of dhamma, no 5. I add message for Icaro at the end. ---------- Van: nina van gorkom Datum: Fri, 08 Aug 2003 10:03:33 +0200 Aan: Pali yahoo Onderwerp: meanings of dhamma, no 5. Meanings of dhamma, no 5. Now we have come to a text of the Saddaniti, a grammar written by the Thera Aggava.msa of Pagan, in 1154. The Saddaniti gives the same meanings of dhamma as stated in the Atthasaalinii, but in addition it gives several more meanings of dhamma. First: The Saddaniti refers for the meaning of hetu, cause, to the analytical knowledge of cause, dhammapa.tisambhidaa. The Saddaniti then gives another list which has in addition several more meanings of dhamma: The Saddaniti explains the different meanings: N: In the Books of the Abhidhamma all realities are classified as threefold: kusala, akusala and abyaakataa, or avyaakataa. Avyaakata means not declared, not determined. They are not determined as kusala nor as akusala, they are indeterminate. Kusala dhammas are the kusala cittas with their accompanying cetasikas (mental factors). Akusala dhammas are the akusala cittas with their accompanying cetasikas. Indeterminate dhammas are: vipaakacittas (cittas which are results of kamma) and their accompanying cetasikas. Kiriyacittas, inoperative cittas, cittas which are neither cause (kusala or akusala) nor result, with their accompanying cetasikas. Ruupa, physical phenomena and nibbaana. For example, in the First Book of the Abhidhamma, the Dhammasangani, Book III, Part I, Ch 1, we read about this triple classificastion of all realities. They are all dhammas each with their own specific characteristic, sabhaava. ***** P.S. to Icaro: You could look at Abhidhammatta Sangaha pali, Ch III, pakinnaka sanghaho, under hetu sangaho: lobho doso ca moho hetuu akusala tayo lobha, dosa and moha are three akusala roots alobhaadosaamoho ca kusalaabyaakataa tathaa. alobha, adosa and amoha are thus kusala and abyakata. Nina. 24064 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Aug 10, 2003 9:25pm Subject: Re: [dsg] group or collection.. Hi Mike, op 10-08-2003 19:57 schreef m. nease op mlnease@z...:> > What is the paali for 'groups'? N: Not sure, but sa"ngaaha means: collection. And, as Icaro says, samuuha: multitude or mass. But in your quote of Vis, I do not have the Pali. Thank you for the texts. As it is explained by a.Sujin in the tape: it appears and is object of satipatthana, thus, in this context it is not a pannatti. Take the four Great Elements and four other rupas in a unit, such a unit is real, not a pannatti. It is under rupa paramattha. A. Sujin also said before; when we speak about groups, we mostly refer to rupa. There are units of rupas surrounded by infinitesimally tiny space Sarah also quoted: Here is the key, I think. Nina. 24065 From: Jim Anderson Date: Sun Aug 10, 2003 10:42pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Computer symbol silliness Hi Christine, The line over the long vowel is called a macron. Unfortunately, there is no such for Pali vowel characters in the standard encoding range: 128-255 where we find the 'ñ' (0241). You could use the acute symbol to mark the long vowels: á (alt+0225), í (alt+0237), ú (alt+0250). Although these characters may show up correctly on your computer, it may show up as gibberish on somebody else's computer if they're using a different character set. In email messages it's best to use the characters within the range 32-127 which the Velthuis scheme adopts: ~n instead of ñ, double vowels for long ones: aa ii uu, dot before (.t .d .n .l .m) for the dot under. Best wishes, Jim < ñ <-- :-) :-) Do you have any hints for the line over long vowels? metta, Chris >> 24066 From: Sarah Date: Mon Aug 11, 2003 0:55am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Is solitude not dukkha? As well as absence of love and friendship? Hi Victor, (Kom & Nori), --- yu_zhonghao wrote: > Hi Nori, > However, solitude/living alone is extolled and/or encouraged in > several places in the discourses.* So there seems to be a conflict: > if solitude is dukkha, then why is it extolled and/or encouraged? > > Because as a way of practice, it is conducive to the cessation of > dukkha. >..... I was interested to follow up on a couple of your references below: V: > * > > Train in solitude > & the contemplative's task, > Solitude > is called > sagacity. > Alone, you truly delight > & shine in the ten directions. > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/khuddaka/suttanipata/snp3- > 11.html S: To quote a little bit more from the same source: In one who has no attachment -- the monk who has cut the stream, abandoning what is & isn't a duty -- no fever is found. I'll explain to you sagacity: be like a razor's edge. Pressing tongue against palate, restrain your stomach. Neither be lazy in mind, nor have many thoughts. Be committed to taintlessness, independent, having the holy life as your aim. Train in solitude & the contemplative's task, Solitude is called sagacity. Alone, you truly delight ***** Does it mean here that he should physically live alone or refer to the giving up of attachment? Earlier we read about his hving abandoned desire and lust and how he should behave when he visits a village on his alms round. “he should not rejoice at an invitation or a present from the village”....”he should not utter a word with an ulterior motive”. Whether he receives anything or not, it’s fine and he returns to the same tree. Finally, after the verse you quote, at the end we read (I’m using Norman’s PTS transl): “Know this by the streams [which flow] in clefts and crevices. [Rivers in] small channels move noisily; the great oceans move in silence. What is not full makes a noise. What is full is indeed silent. A fool is like a half-filled pot; a wise man is like a full pool.” I read this sutta as urging the abandoning of ‘desire and lust’. “He should cross over hell". Isn’t this the sense of solitude or the full pool that is being referred to? I followed up on the following verse because I found the translation so delightful and this is what interested me in your post;-) > > One alone is like Brahma, > two, like devas, > three, like a village, > more than that: > a hullabaloo. > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/khuddaka/theragatha/thag03.html# Mrs R-D’s transl for the same verse is not as colourful: “Alone a man is even as Brahma. And as angels if he have one mate. Like to a village is a group of three. Like to a noisy crowd if more there be.” In this case, definitely Yasoja is praising solitude, living alone in the forest. Should we follow his example? When he uttered this verse, he had acquired the six abhinna (supernormal knowledges including arahantship. If we went to live in the forest alone, thinking that we would then also develop the same wisdom, it would be wrong I think. I think we have to read and consider these passages carefully and in context and according to what we’ve read elsewhere as well. Look forward to more comments and quotes;-) Metta, Sarh ===== 24067 From: Sarah Date: Mon Aug 11, 2003 1:11am Subject: Re: [dsg] Four Bases of Power Hi Victor, On our other thread, I’ve left aside your quotes and comments which I have no problem with;-) --- yu_zhonghao wrote: > >Regarding your question: > > what kind of desire or understanding is arising at this moment? > > I would not want to speak for others. And I would think that it is > more important for me to apply the "fabrications of exertion"/four > right exertions with regard to whatever skillful/wholesome and > unskillful/unwholesome qualities that has or hasn't arisen. > > Your comments are appreciated. ..... S: I think we can pretty well close this thread in full agreement, by just adding the following quotes of yours from the ‘Control’ thread to your comments above on the four right exertions: ***** V: “Hmmmm, would it be a manisfestation of the characteristics of "no-control"?” V: “Yeah, I tried and couldn't do it. I thought it might be an instance of "incontrollability". :-)” ***** I think, in summary, this whole thread has been about our understandings of anatta, effort and control. Perhaps we can move onto ‘solitude’ and ‘forest life’ unless you have further comments here;-) I appreciate these discussions, Victor - they’re getting more and more interesting, I think. Apologies as usual for delays in response - I always have to check and consider before replying to you;-) Metta, Sarah ===== 24068 From: Sarah Date: Mon Aug 11, 2003 1:46am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Trying to understand my last meditation & Dhamma Hi Molly (& Nori), I’m also really glad to welcome you here and to thank you for your long and interesting introduction without extra prompts;-). It always helps to have an idea of where someone ‘comes from’ in their study and interest in the Dhamma. You also give Nori an example of another friendly New Yorker, though I note you live in Hawaii now. Perhaps you’ll bump into Frank there (see ‘convict on the run’ in the photo album;-)) I’d just like to pick up on one part of your post for now, which as you say is a difficult area for most of us to comprehend. I was reminded of it by a note a friend sent off-list: ..... --- mollyo wrote: >We need not contemplate further, wondering > about > other people's kamma and how does it coincide with our kamma, etc.. we > are > best to simply accept that dhamma is dhamma is dhamma and it is a > manifestation of our own making and no more. it may appear to be far > more > complicated than that. it may appear as if someone has harmed us, > someone > has lied to us or stole from us or hit us, but indeed, they do not exist > > outside of Dhamma, our own mind made them and this action. We completely > > created this experience. we are not victims. we are creators, always. ..... Perhaps we can even say there are no victims or creators, just the various mental and physical phenomena, inter-relating by conditions. People find this very objectionable and even threatening. They think it means we’re implying that one should never take any action. This of course would be wrong understanding of kamma-vipaka, as I see it. ..... > this > concept is so radical for a western mind! In the USA we hire lawyers to > prove that we are innocent victims of this crime or of that injustice... > > much ado about nothing, we harm ourselves further by searching for blame > > rather than accepting responsibility. This lesson is so difficult to > grasp, > it is undesireable. it requires deep acceptance and understanding. > Our attention should always be on ourselves. This is why Vipassana is so > > useful and profound, leading us to deeper and deeper understanding of > the > true nature of reality, taking us into the experience of our own > changing > nature, taking the attention off of others and into our own body, > feelings, > mind and mental contents. .... I agree with your comments. We are always looking for blame or misunderstanding how ‘useful and profound’ Vipassana is. On the other hand, I don’t think that understanding more about these truths, as you describe them, necessarily means that we shouldn’t play any part in bringing perpetrators of crime to justice, do you? I was half-following the trial of one of the key Bali terrorists. Conventionally speaking, we’d say that the victims, many Australian and badly injured, were very brave to return and give evidence leading to the conviction. When the death penalty by firing squad was announced, some questioned the penalty and their part in the process. Of course, their main concern had been for ‘justice’. Whatever we do, or don’t do, we act from so many different motives, good and bad and usually with complete ignorance of anatta, kamma and the other realities you refer to. What do you think? ..... > may we all be liberated. > may we all come out of suffering. > may we all develop goodwill. > may we all develop the Paramis. .... It’s unusual to hear from someone with such a keen interest in the various aspects of the Dhamma. Nina just finished translating a long series on the Paramis with a lot of textual reference. You may find it interesting to read: http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Her own briefer series on the Perfections, which I think is very clearly written and perhaps easier to follow in the first place, can be found on the same website or here: http://www.abhidhamma.org/ ...... Many thanks for sharing all your other reflections, Molly, and look forward to many more. With metta, Sarah ======= 24069 From: Sarah Date: Mon Aug 11, 2003 3:23am Subject: Re: [dsg] A Pleasant Abiding Hi Mike (& Jeff), --- "m. nease" wrote: > Hi Sarah, > > This seems to be my day to paraphrase--could I sum this up by saying > that, > 'sukha vihaara', pleasant abiding, means 'bliss associated with > fruition-attainment' in reference to an arahanta; and something else in > reference to a non-arahanta (rather than saying that 'sukha vihaara', > pleasant abiding, only means 'bliss associated with fruition-attainment' > for > an arahanta)? ..... Yes, certainly not the latter. Perhaps we can say that ‘sukha vihaara’ refers to pleasant abiding for those accomplished in jhanas (jhana-samapatti). Additionally, for ariyan disciples, with mastery in jhanas, it refers to fruition-attainment (phala samapatti) according to the level of enlightenment attained. “All ariyans attain their own respective fruition” Ud Comy, Enlightenmnet Ch. From an earlier post: ..... Howard: > > Why the need for a "vacation"? > Mike: > I've always found this interesting, too--it's clear from the suttas that > the > Buddha often took such 'breaks'. ..... Further from Udana Comy: “All ariyans attain their own respective fruition. But why do these attain (same)? With the aim of abiding in that bliss belonging to these seen conditions. For just as a king experienes royal bliss, the devataa heavenly bliss, so do ariyans attain fruition-attainment at the moment of their choice(icchitakkha.ne) after (first) setting the limit for the period (proposed) thinking “I will experience supermundane bliss”. Earlier in the same chapter comy; “...in the present case it is the Lord’s liberation in terms of fruition that has nibbana as its object that is implied, for which reason “Experiencing the bliss of liberation (vimmuttisukhapa.tisa.mvedii) means was seated experiencing the bliss of liberation, the bliss associated with fruition-attainment” was said. And “liberation” (vimutti) is the state in which consciousness (cittassa) is liberated from the corruptions by way of tranquillization, or alternatively it is consciousness (citta.m) itself that is to be understood as liberated in that way, the bliss (sukha.m) born as a result of, or else associated with, that liberation (vimutti) being the “bliss of liveration” (vimuttisukha.m). ..... > It seems evident from Jon's and Larry's excerpts that "blissful abiding > here > and now" is only for arahants. .... I think that is clarified - nirodha samapatti only for anagami and arahant and phala samapatti or sukha vihara, we need to read in context. .... I've often used it to refer to mundane > jhaana. Are there no references to this for ordinary people? .... As you gave before. Udana Comy: “But some say that sotapannas and once-returners do not attain fruition-attainment, that only the two higher (types of ariyapuggala) attain it, on account of the fact that it is they (alone) who have brought things to fulfilment where concentration is concerned. This is unreasonable - since even the putthujana attains the mundane concentration he has himself acquired.” ..... >As for > 'rebirth in the brahma-world' could this ever refer to momentary > (kha.nika) > rebirth? The descriptions in the suttas of the cultivation of the > brahma-vihaaras has always sounded a lot like a "blissful abiding here > and > now" to me. .... I’m not sure that it can. I agree that the fully developed brahma-viharas sounds very like a ‘blissful abiding’, abiding in loving-kindness jhana for example: From the Metta Discourse; “brahmam eta’m vihaara’m’m idha-m-aahu” ‘This is divine Abiding here, they say’, Comy transl by ~Naanamoli in Khuddakapaa.tha (Minor Readings): “The meaning is this. There is this abiding in lovingkindness that is set forth in the way beginning with the words ‘joyful and safe’ and down as far as (the words) ‘He would pursue this mindfulness’. Now it is this (eta’m) - since among the heavenly abidings, divine abidings, noble abidings, and abidings in the postures, it is immaculate and is beneficial both to oneself and others - that is, they say (aahu) here (idha) in the Noble Ones’ True Idea and Discipline, a Divine Abiding (brahma’m vihaara’m). It is a foremost abiding, they say, and consequently he would such mindfulness pursue (decide on) constantly, continuously and uninterruptedly, whether standing or walking, seated too, or lying down the while undrowsing.” However, the bhikkhus still had to emerge from ‘the abiding in loving kindness jhana’ and develop all the insights. They used metta jhana as basis and attained arahatship. Hope there’s something of use, here Mike. I'll be glad for any corrections. I also gave more detail on the last comments from the Khuddakapaa.tha, Metta Discourse in this post: http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/m12474.html Metta, Sarah P.S. Jeff, no need to send us any more (off-list)invitations to your group, just because I’ve mentioned ‘jhana’ a few times;-), but you’re most welcome to join in this or any other thread here with your 'insights'. ====== 24070 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Aug 11, 2003 4:16am Subject: Re: [dsg] Path consciousness included in the first Noble Truth? Jim Thanks very much for these references and suggestions for further reading. I'm just getting around to following them up, and will get back to you later if I find anything interesting. Jon --- Jim Anderson wrote: > Jon, > I think the Analysis of Truth in the Book of Analysis (Vibhanga) > could > shed some more light on the four noble truths as there is a section > that relates it to the Abhidhamma triplets and couplets. It seems > that > from my reading so far, strictly speaking, the lokuttaradhammas are > excluded from the five upadanakkhandhas. > > The Path of Discrimination (see Treatise of Knowledge) provides > some > interesting details about the status of the paths and the fruits > expecially with regards to the last 3 of the 22 faculties > (indriyas). > See for example §7 which includes: the final-knower faculty (the > a~n~naataavindriya of the arahant) is to be directly known, the > origin > of the final-knower faculty is to be directly known, the cessation > of > the final-knower faculty is to be directly known, the path leading > to > the cessation of the final-knower faculty is to be directly known. > Also at §92: When he sees the final-knower faculty he abandons > [it]. . > . When he sees nibbaana which merges in the deathless he abandons > [it]. So nothing is spared in this ruthless and systematic > abandoning, > not even nibbaana! The final-knower faculty is also included in the > following formulas: sabbe sa"nkhaaraa aniccaa/dukkhaa according to > §221. 24071 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Aug 11, 2003 4:27am Subject: Re: [dsg] concentration Icaro Thanks for this. I agree that jhana is a very complex subject. However, I think the thrust of Larry's thread has been concentration as a proximate cause of insight, rather than the development of mundane jhana, which is why I was happy not to venture into that area ;-)) I admire your enthusiasm for the lesser-read parts of the Tipitaka. Keep it up! Jon --- icaro franca wrote: > Dear Jon: > Jon, a entire discussion group about Jhana wouldn´t > to be sufficient to clarify some aspects... if you > keep your concentration - or adjust your mind > aggregates to a Kusala mode ( it´s only a > opinion...whatever gets it first), you´ll reach an > eventually 'ecstatic concentration' that is acheived > and becomes enwrapt in Jhana - Appana Samadhi - > enjoying calm and serenity of one-pointedness ( > samatha - tranquility). The mental thought process of > Appana Samadhi runs as follows ( I am only checkin´ > out my own lists): > > First Bhavanga,then Manodvaravajjana, Parikamma, > Upaccara, Anuloma, Gotrabha, Appana. 24072 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Aug 11, 2003 4:31am Subject: Re: [dsg] concentration Larry --- LBIDD@w... wrote: > Hi Jon, > > I wrote: "However, I think the tendency to carry an object over to > another process is also a function of one-pointed cetasika." > > And you replied: "In 'Cetasikas' (p. 81), Nina cites a passage from > Vism > that seems to attribute this function to vitakka: > <<< > Vitakka which is developed in samatha "thinks" of the meditation > subject > and it inhibits the hindrances which are sloth and torpor (thína > and > middha). The Visuddhimagga states in the definition of vitakka (IV, > 88): > "… for the meditator is said, in virtue of it, to have the object > struck > at by applied thought, threshed by applied thought…" Thus, in > samatha > vitakka "touches" the meditation subject again and again until calm > has > developed to the degree that jhåna can be attained.: > > Larry: I think what you are referring to is vicara (sustained > thought). It depends whether you go by the name or by the detailed description ;-)). I think you feel that the term 'sustained thought' seems to fit the kind of continuity you are interested in finding out about. But according to the actual description, it is vitakka that has the greater role in citta taking the same object repeatedly. Jon 24073 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Aug 11, 2003 4:34am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism XIV, 4, 5, 6 Larry On your point 5, I think that without the actual text there is unlikely to be any discussion. How about posting just the text of passages that you think are worth discussing? That might be better than summaries of the passages that are too long. We have sorted out the copyright aspect, so that is not an issue. Appreciating your efforts very much. Jon --- LBIDD@w... wrote: > Hi Jon, > > Regarding the superiority of copies over summaries there are > several > issues: > > 1. Some topics stretch over several paragraphs and any given > paragraph > doesn't contain a particularly discussion-worthy point. So the > solution > is either a short summary or long email. I'm not a good typist, so > this can pose some difficulties. > > 2. Copywrite issues. I don't know if we could get away with typing > out all 838 pages. > > 3. I think people who have the book have to lead the way in > discussions. > If there is some point that needs a direct quote, they could make > it. > > 4. Everyone who is interested in this study program should buy the > book. > > 5. No one is discussing either way. Any ideas on how to increase > participation? > > Larry 24074 From: icaro franca Date: Mon Aug 11, 2003 5:33am Subject: Re: [dsg] concentration Dear Jon: ------------------------------------------------------- > Thanks for this. I agree that jhana is a very > complex subject. > However, I think the thrust of Larry's thread has > been concentration > as a proximate cause of insight, rather than the > development of > mundane jhana, which is why I was happy not to > venture into that area > ;-)) -------------------------------------------------- Glad to hear about you! I have got as matter of fact that before the attainment of Jhana, one must manage to get a good catch on Vipassana and Samatha, with the conscience of the Path and The Fruits or, as Nina says, folllowing your Parami´s Accumulations. Since she is taking on the Accumulations side, I am getting the issues of Jhana not as a practitioner, but as a reader of texts, you see. I am very busy for now... In September I will go to the Air Force´s Academy at Minas Gerais to get - finally! - my military rank ( Lieutennant ) and there´s a lot to get fitted on before my depart. If I don´t reply you, Larry, Mike, Sarah, Jon and others at good time, I do sincerelly apologize!!!!! > > I admire your enthusiasm for the lesser-read parts > of the Tipitaka. > Keep it up! As I´ve said, standing at the accumulations` shore, my interests on ultimate Jhanas is a matter to take on what the texts said about it.... Metta, Ícaro > Jon > > --- icaro franca wrote: > > Dear Jon: > > > Jon, a entire discussion group about Jhana > wouldn´t > > to be sufficient to clarify some aspects... if you > > keep your concentration - or adjust your mind > > aggregates to a Kusala mode ( it´s only a > > opinion...whatever gets it first), you´ll reach an > > eventually 'ecstatic concentration' that is > acheived > > and becomes enwrapt in Jhana - Appana Samadhi - > > enjoying calm and serenity of one-pointedness ( > > samatha - tranquility). The mental thought > process of > > Appana Samadhi runs as follows ( I am only > checkin´ > > out my own lists): > > > > First Bhavanga,then Manodvaravajjana, > Parikamma, > > Upaccara, Anuloma, Gotrabha, Appana. ===== Seize the time, there´s only minutes left to zero Just got a little taste, I gotta get some more, Just me and you 24075 From: icaro franca Date: Mon Aug 11, 2003 5:57am Subject: Re: [dsg] FW: meanings of dhamma, no 5. Dear Nina: Nina: "P.S. to Icaro: > You could look at Abhidhammatta Sangaha pali, Ch > III, pakinnaka sanghaho, > under hetu sangaho:" ---------------------------------------------- (Where is it...ah! Here!) The Tika-co-Pali (Abhidhammatta Sangaha pali), pakinakaparicchedo,Hetusangaho... --------------------------------------------------- Nina: "lobho doso ca moho hetuu akusala tayo > lobha, dosa and moha are three akusala roots" ------------------------------------------------ At my version (Myanmar´s) I am reading ( 16th stanza, beginning with "16. Lobho doso ca moho ca,..." Hetu akusala tayo. Alobhadosamoho ca, Kusalabyakata tatha. Nina, my very first impression when I begun to read the Dhammasangani and the Abhidhamma was " well, that´s the way the Japanese haikais are made!" Dear Nina, in September I am departing to the Air Force´s Academy at Minas Gerais, to get finally my military rank! Before that , there´s a lot of things to be put on orderly. So, if I don´t reply your posts at good time, please forgive me!!!!!! Very thanks for your EXCELENT works! Metta, Ícaro ===== Seize the time, there´s only minutes left to zero Just got a little taste, I gotta get some more, Just me and you 24076 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Aug 11, 2003 10:15am Subject: FW: Comy Mahaaraahulovaadsutta. no 7 B ---------- Van: nina van gorkom Datum: Fri, 08 Aug 2003 16:26:11 +0200 Aan: Pali yahoo Onderwerp: Comy Mahaaraahulovaadsutta. no 7 B Comy Mahaaraahulovaadsutta. no 7 B disvaava -- ``aya.m raahulo mayha.m atrajo hutvaa mama pacchato aagacchanto After the Buddha had seen this, he considered: ³Rahula who is my son, walks behind me, `aha.m sobhaami,mayha.m va.n.naayatana.m pasanna'nti thinking, ŒI am handsome, my complexion is fair¹, attabhaava.m nissaaya gehassitachandaraaga.m uppaadeti, and worldly desire because of his bodily appearance has arisen in him. atitthe pakkhando uppatha.m pa.tipanno agocare carati, He rejoices in what is unsuitable, he is following the wrong way and is erring. disaamuu.lhaaddhiko viya agantabba.m disa.m gacchati. Just like someone who is exceedingly led astray, he goes into the wrong direction where he should not go. aya.m kho panassa kileso abbhantare va.d.dhanto Since his defilements are increasing within him, attatthampi yathaabhuuta.m passitu.m na dassati, paratthampi, ubhayatthampi. he does not see as it truly is his own benefit, the benefit of someone else nor the benefit of both himself and someone else. tato nirayepi pa.tisandhi.m ga.nhaapessati, tiracchaanayoniyampi, Therefore, this will take him to rebirth in a hell plane, in the animal world, pettivisayepi, asurakaayepi, sambaadhepi maatukucchisminti in the ghost plane, or in the confined condition of the mother¹s womb. anamatagge sa.msaarava.t.te paripaatessati. It will make him fall down in the cycle of birth and death, without beginning or end. English: After the Buddha had seen this, he considered: ³Rahula who is my son, walks behind me, thinking, ŒI am handsome, my complexion is fair¹, and worldly desire because of his bodily appearance has arisen in him. He rejoices in what is unsuitable, he is following the wrong way and is erring. Just like someone who is exceedingly led astray, he goes into the wrong direction where he should not go. Since his defilements are increasing within him, he does not see as it truly is his own benefit, the benefit of someone else nor the benefit of both himself and someone else. Therefore, this will take him to rebirth in a hell plane, in the animal world, in the ghost plane, or in the confined condition of the mother¹s womb. It will make him fall down in the cycle of birth and death, without beginning or end. ******* Nina. 24077 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Aug 11, 2003 10:15am Subject: Re: [dsg] bhavanga. Dear Icaro, op 10-08-2003 21:16 schreef icaro franca op icarofranca@y...: > Sublime Resultant > Jhanas arise with no door, and Bhavangacitta does not > arise within a process but in between processes. N: May I add something? The cittas which perform the function of rebirth, bhavanga (throughout life) and cuti, dying, do not experience an object through a doorway, they are door- freed. They are the same type of citta throughout life and all of them experience the object experienced during the last javana-cittas of the previous life. There are nineteen types of vipaka citta which are door-freed, and you have learnt them by the Abhidhammattasangaha. (See also, for some details, my Abhidhamma in Daily Life, Ch 11). Among them are indeed jhana vipakacittas as you say. They arise in rupa-brahmaplanes and arupa brahma planes, and in those planes they perform the function of rebirth, bhavanga throughout life in that plane, in between processes, and cuti. Thus, when we speak of bhavangacitta, it denotes a function, and we have to keep in mind that bhavangacitta can be of nineteen different types. The function of bhavanga is keeping the continuity in the life of an individual. Nina. 24078 From: Ray Hendrickson Date: Mon Aug 11, 2003 10:23am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Is solitude not dukkha? As well as absence of love and friendship? Here is an interesting Sutta with a different slant on living alone.. Here is the URL, http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn21-010.html And here is the poem that summarizes the Sutta....hope this aspect is not a repeat of what has been posted before....Ray That is what the Blessed One said. Having said it, the One Well-gone further said this: "All-conquering, all-knowing, intelligent; with regard to all things, unadhering; all-abandoning, released in the ending of craving: him I call a man who lives alone." ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sarah" To: Sent: Monday, August 11, 2003 12:55 AM Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Is solitude not dukkha? As well as absence of love and friendship? > Hi Victor, (Kom & Nori), > > --- yu_zhonghao wrote: > Hi Nori, > > > > However, solitude/living alone is extolled and/or encouraged in > > several places in the discourses.* So there seems to be a conflict: > > if solitude is dukkha, then why is it extolled and/or encouraged? > > > > Because as a way of practice, it is conducive to the cessation of > > dukkha. > >..... > > I was interested to follow up on a couple of your references below: > > V: > * > > > > Train in solitude > > & the contemplative's task, > > Solitude > > is called > > sagacity. > > Alone, you truly delight > > & shine in the ten directions. > > > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/khuddaka/suttanipata/snp3- > > 11.html > > S: To quote a little bit more from the same source: > > In one who has no attachment -- > the monk who has cut the stream, > abandoning what is > & isn't a duty -- > no fever is found. > > I'll explain to you > sagacity: be like a razor's edge. > Pressing tongue against palate, > restrain your stomach. > Neither be lazy in mind, > nor have many thoughts. > Be committed to taintlessness, > independent, > having the holy life as your aim. > Train in solitude > & the contemplative's task, > Solitude > is called > sagacity. > Alone, you truly delight > ***** > Does it mean here that he should physically live alone or refer to the > giving up of attachment? Earlier we read about his hving abandoned desire > and lust and how he should behave when he visits a village on his alms > round. "he should not rejoice at an invitation or a present from the > village"...."he should not utter a word with an ulterior motive". Whether > he receives anything or not, it's fine and he returns to the same tree. > > Finally, after the verse you quote, at the end we read (I'm using Norman's > PTS transl): > > "Know this by the streams [which flow] in clefts and crevices. [Rivers in] > small channels move noisily; the great oceans move in silence. > What is not full makes a noise. What is full is indeed silent. A fool > is like a half-filled pot; a wise man is like a full pool." > > I read this sutta as urging the abandoning of 'desire and lust'. "He > should cross over hell". Isn't this the sense of solitude or the full pool > that is being referred to? > > > > > I followed up on the following verse because I found the translation so > delightful and this is what interested me in your post;-) > > > > > One alone is like Brahma, > > two, like devas, > > three, like a village, > > more than that: > > a hullabaloo. > > > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/khuddaka/theragatha/thag03.html# > > Mrs R-D's transl for the same verse is not as colourful: > > "Alone a man is even as Brahma. > And as angels if he have one mate. > Like to a village is a group of three. > Like to a noisy crowd if more there be." > > In this case, definitely Yasoja is praising solitude, living alone in the > forest. Should we follow his example? When he uttered this verse, he had > acquired the six abhinna (supernormal knowledges including arahantship. > > If we went to live in the forest alone, thinking that we would then also > develop the same wisdom, it would be wrong I think. > > I think we have to read and consider these passages carefully and in > context and according to what we've read elsewhere as well. > > Look forward to more comments and quotes;-) > > Metta, > > Sarh > ===== 24079 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Mon Aug 11, 2003 1:32pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Is solitude not dukkha? As well as absence of love and friendship? Hi Ray, > -----Original Message----- > From: Ray Hendrickson [mailto:rhendrickson1@e...] > > Here is an interesting Sutta with a different slant on living alone.. > > > That is what the Blessed One said. Having said it, the One > Well-gone further > said this: > > "All-conquering, > all-knowing, intelligent; > with regard to all things, > unadhering; > all-abandoning, > released in the ending of craving: > him I call > a man who lives > alone." > This is an excellent point on the meaning of solitude (viveka). Vivekha ultimately means solitude from kilesa, not just living by oneself, or living in tranquil meditation all the time. Monks (as well as the laypersons) can be said to be living alone (appropriate to their level of panna) even without living by themselves. kom 24080 From: Date: Mon Aug 11, 2003 3:49pm Subject: Vism. XIV, 4 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) XIV 4. Suppose there were three people, a child without discretion, a villager, and a money-changer, who saw a heap of coins lying on a money changer,s counter. The child without discretion knows merely that the coins are figured and ornamented, long, square, or round; he does not know that they are reckoned as valuable for human use and enjoyment. And the villager knows that they are figured and ornamented, etc., and that they are reckoned as valuable for human use and enjoyment; but he does not know such distinctions as 'This one is genuine, this one is false, this is half-value'. The money-changer knows all those kinds, and he does so by looking at the coins, and by listening to the sound of it when struck, and by smelling its smell, tasting its taste, and weighing it in his hand, and he knows that it was made in a certain village or town or city or on a certain mountain or by the banks of a certain river,and that it was made by a certain master. And this may be understood as an illustration. 24081 From: Date: Mon Aug 11, 2003 3:57pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism. XIV, 4 "And this may be understood as an illustration." L: An illustration of the three modes of knowing: perception (sanna), consciousness (vinnana), and understanding (panna). 24082 From: Date: Mon Aug 11, 2003 4:13pm Subject: Vism. XIV, 5 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) XIV 5. Perception is like the child without discretion seeing the coin, because it apprehends the mere mode of appearance of the object as blue and so on. Consciousness is like the villager seeing the coin, because it apprehends the mode of the object as blue, etc., and because it extends further, reaching the penetration of its characteristics. Understanding is like the money-changer seeing the coin, because, after apprehending mode of the object as blue, etc., and extending to the penetration of the characteristics, it extends still further, reaching the manifestation of the path. 24083 From: Date: Mon Aug 11, 2003 4:33pm Subject: Vism. XIV, 6 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) XIV 6. However, it [understanding] is not always to be found where perception and consciousess are. (2) But when it is, it is not disconnected from those states. And because it cannot be taken as disconnected thus 'This is perception, this is consciousness, this is understanding', its difference is consequently subtle and hard to see. Hence the venerable Nagasena said 'A difficult thing, O King, has been done by the Blessed One. --What, venerable Nagasena, is the difficult thing that has been done by the Blessed One? --The difficult thing, O King, done by the Blessed One was the defining of the immterial states of consciousness and its concomitants, which occur with a single object, and which he declared thus: This is contact, this is feeling, this is perception, this is volition, this is consciousness' (Miln. 87). (2) 'In arisings of consciousness with two root-causes [i.e. with non-greed and non-hate but without non-delusion], or without root-cause, understanding does not occur' (Pm. 432). 'Just as pleasure is not invariably inseparable from happiness so perception and consciousness are not invariable inseparably from understanding. But just as happiness is invariably inseparable from pleasure so understanding is inseparable invariably from perception and consciousness' (Pm. 432). 24084 From: rjkjp1 Date: Mon Aug 11, 2003 4:35pm Subject: Re: [dsg] FW: meanings of dhamma, no 5. Dear Icaro, Congratulations on your new posting. Looking forward to a few years from now when you tell us you have been made general:) Robert --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, icaro franca < > > Dear Nina, in September I am departing to the Air > Force´s Academy at Minas Gerais, to get finally my > military rank! Before that , there´s a lot of things > to be put on orderly. So, if I don´t reply your posts > at good time, please forgive me!!!!!! > > Very thanks for your EXCELENT works! > > Metta, Ícaro > 24085 From: Date: Mon Aug 11, 2003 4:39pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism. XIV, 6 'Just as pleasure is not invariably inseparable from happiness so perception and consciousness are not invariable inseparably from understanding. But just as happiness is invariably inseparable from pleasure so understanding is inseparable invariably from perception and consciousness' (Pm. 432). Larry: I think there is a typo in the text. Read "perception and consciousness are not invariably inseparable from understanding". 24086 From: Dan D. Date: Mon Aug 11, 2003 4:55pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Computer symbol silliness --- a solution! Dear Sarah, Dump your Mac and get a machine with Windows :) Wishing you the best (as always), Dan > My problem is fonts (or lack of) for Mac computers. I go to the site that > Icaro recommended for DhammasanganiPali and am confronted with all the > usual weird and wonderful symbols with an occasional letter. The fonts > don't work, so I'm left reading the symbols trying to make some sense. > Same for the suttas - trying to make out `sukkhavihara' for Mike in the > jigsaw puzzle of symbols.... Likewise, the CDRom everyone talks about from > the Vipassana Institute doesn't work for Macs and I've never been able to > access the Foundation website yet. > > (If anyone has any solutions, appreciated, but they have to be very simple > for me to follow). 24087 From: norakat147 Date: Mon Aug 11, 2003 8:03pm Subject: Vipassana retreat in Shelburne, Mass. (has anyone gone?) hi, I am considering going to the vipassana retreat in Shelburne, Massachusetts to learn techniques taught by S. N. Goenka. I am wondering if anyone has gone to that specific retreat and has any opinions on it? Also, if anyone knows which is the best retreat to go to (east coast) or knows of any websites that teaches it written? Is this the best form of meditation ? Thank you all for your valuable comments on past posts. They have helped me greatly. with metta, nori 24088 From: Date: Mon Aug 11, 2003 4:46pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vipassana retreat in Shelburne, Mass. (has anyone gone?) Hi, Nori - In a message dated 8/11/03 11:04:15 PM Eastern Daylight Time, nori_public@a... writes: > hi, > > I am considering going to the vipassana retreat in Shelburne, > Massachusetts to learn techniques taught by S. N. Goenka. > > I am wondering if anyone has gone to that specific retreat and has > any opinions on it? > > Also, if anyone knows which is the best retreat to go to (east coast) > or knows of any websites that teaches it written? > > Is this the best form of meditation ? > > Thank you all for your valuable comments on past posts. They have > helped me greatly. > > > with metta, > nori > > ============================ A number of years back I went to a 10-day Goenka retreat at Shelburne Falls. It was wonderful, and it made a major favorable impact on my life. I recommend it highly and without reservation. I don't know whether it is "the best form of meditation," but it is excellent. In my opinion, you would not be making a mistake in attending. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 24089 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Aug 11, 2003 9:15pm Subject: Re: [dsg] concentration Dear Icaro, Do not answer, I understand. Just curious, what will be your work when you are a Lieutenant? Shall we not hear from you anymore or is this only temporary? Maybe you can write a Dhamma diary. Now I just want to add something about jhana. op 11-08-2003 14:33 schreef icaro franca op icarofranca@y...: > I have got as matter of fact that before the > attainment of Jhana, one must manage to get a good > catch on Vipassana and Samatha, with the conscience of > the Path and The Fruits or, as Nina says, folllowing > your Parami?s Accumulations. N: When one lives in the right conditions and has accumulated skill one can attain mundane jhana, no need for vipassana in order to attain jhana. It is different in the case of lokuttara jhana. Some people could develop jhana and vipassana and attain enlightenment with lokuttara cittas accompanied by jhanafactors of the different stages of jhana. That is why, as you know from Abh Sangaha, cittas are also counted as 121. Here lokuttara jhanacittas are included. Nina. 24090 From: rjkjp1 Date: Mon Aug 11, 2003 9:28pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Computer symbol silliness --- a solution! --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Dan D." wrote: > Dear Sarah, > Dump your Mac and get a machine with Windows :) > > Wishing you the best (as always), > > Dan Well said, Dan. ;) Robert 24091 From: Sarah Date: Mon Aug 11, 2003 10:32pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Computer symbol silliness --- a solution! Hi Dan & RobertK, Good to see you both around, even if you’re failing my ‘computer silliness’ test.... --- "Dan D." wrote: > Dear Sarah, > Dump your Mac and get a machine with Windows :) .... I agree this sounds logical, but remember: S: > > (If anyone has any solutions, appreciated, but they have to be very > simple > > for me to follow). .... It fails the ‘very simple for me to follow’ stipulation, because: a) cost considerations - I mean we might be talking about a trip to Burma, India or both;-( b) major complications for my business - I have all my client, student and other data for the last 20yrs kept on ‘appleworks’, the original Apple data system. Also I have a large amount of Apple educational hardware and software programs and so on which the kids use. c) kitchen table syndrome - ask Mike, he understands the difficulties people like Nina and I have when it comes to modern technology and making any changes. He asked me to show him something on the computer at the Foundation and I just froze, unable to work out even how to turn it on;-( d) attachment - need I say more?? Never simple;-( e) the inevitable hassles for Jon, trying to take me in baby steps through the process. To give you an idea of just how delinquent I am in this area, I found out yesterday for the first time (thx to Christine's prompt) where the square brackets are[ ! ] - somehow I’d never found them before, in spite of writing dissertations and so on on a similar computer nearly 20yrs ago - expect them to pop up in every post from now on! f) is there any guarantee that the moment I made the switch, just to access these sites, that they (the sites) wouldn’t come to their senses and produce Mac-friendly fonts ;-( ***** Thanks anyway for your kind wishes and also to Jim for your suggestions. I may try Jim’s one rainy day.I understand it (in theory). If I thought I’d just diligently stick to studying the Dhammasangani like you or Icaro, I would jump a little quicker, but I like to dip here, there and everywhere.... Meanwhile I’ll just stick to what I’m used to, until someone comes up with a really simple solution: 1. (Ka) het? dhamm±. (Kha) na het? dhamm±. 2. (Ka) sahetuk± dhamm±. (Kha) ahetuk± dhamm±. 3. (Ka) hetusampayutt± dhamm±. (Kha) hetuvippayutt± dhamm±. Metta, Sarah p.s Chris, I loved your poem....[%&*] ============================= 24092 From: buddhatrue Date: Tue Aug 12, 2003 0:35am Subject: Egypt Diary: Attachment Dear Friends: As I am about to embark on my trans-continental adventure, I have had to say good bye to all of those people who are close to me. It has not been easy to do so, really not as easy as I thought it might be. I have had to deal with a range of emotions from sadness to guilt… mainly guilt. I feel bad leaving the people behind who have come to count on me being around. This phase of my journey has made me reflect on attachment. In Buddhism attachment is the thing that we all should try to avoid. In the Brahmajala Sutta: The Supreme Net, there is a description of holy men who will go to great lengths, even practically lying, in order to avoid attachment, "What is the second way? Here an ascetic or Brahmin does not in truth know whether a thing is good or bad. He thinks: "I might declare: `That is good', or `That is bad', and I might feel desire or lust or hatred or aversion. If I felt desire, lust, hatred, or aversion, that would be attachment on my part. If I felt attachment, that would distress me, and if I were distressed, that would be a hindrance to me' Thus, fearing attachment, abhorring attachment, he resorts to evasive statements….This is the second case." Of course this is not the way to avoid attachment because the attachment is still there…lying doesn`t solve anything. Even so, attachment is bad and yet it is one of the most difficult things to break. I am reminded of the time when the Buddha had to leave his family to go out and become a monk, before he was enlightened. Of course I am not comparing myself to the Buddha and I am not becoming a monk (at least not this time ;-), but the Buddha had to encounter the same type of difficulties I am faced with presently. There are actually two stories about his leaving his home and one states that he sneaks away in the middle of the night and one states that he calmly says goodbye to his parents even though they have tears on their faces. I am not sure which story is true, I lean toward the tears one, but they both illustrate that breaking those ties of attachment is not an easy thing to do, but it is a necessary thing. It is the first and essential step on the road of self-discovery. I hope that my journey will make the tears I leave behind worth it. Take care, James 24093 From: Sarah Date: Tue Aug 12, 2003 1:22am Subject: Re: [dsg] FW: Comy Mahaaraahulovaadsutta. no 7 B Dear Nina, --- nina van gorkom wrote: > > After the Buddha had seen this, he considered: 3Rahula who is my son, > walks > behind me, thinking, ŒI am handsome, my complexion is fair1, > and worldly desire because of his bodily appearance has arisen in him. > He rejoices in what is unsuitable, he is following the wrong way and is > erring. > Just like someone who is exceedingly led astray, he goes into the wrong > direction where he should not go. “disaamuu.lhaaddhiko viya agantabba.m disa.m gacchati.” > Since his defilements are increasing within him, he does not see as it > truly > is his own benefit, the benefit of someone else nor the benefit of both > himself and someone else. > Therefore, this will take him to rebirth in a hell plane, in the animal > world, > in the ghost plane, or in the confined condition of the mother1s womb. > It will make him fall down in the cycle of birth and death, without > beginning or end. ..... This is such a sobering reminder - even Rahula at this point, ordained, following in the Buddha's footsteps, having heard other sermons, is still so very close to being 'led astray' or 'following the wrong way'. A sobering reminder of where our defilements can take us at any time until panna is developed enough to have eradicated all wrong views and idea of self. *** I also enjoyed the descriptions of all the pageantry and colour. We have a kind of coral tree here in Hong Kong. I wonder if it's the same? I used to have an idea of the Bodhisatta leaving the palace in the dark and all alone. In fact he left during the full-moon, 'throwing aside' the 'empire' 'with indifference as though it were a blob of spittle'. Reading now from the Comy to the Buddhavamsa (Clarifier of Sweet Meaning), because it reminded me of the earlier passage from the comy to the sutta, we read: "And making Kanthaka [the horse] face towards the way to be travelled, he set forth in great pomp and magnificent splendour. then as the Bodhisatta was going along devataas in front of him, sixty hundred thousand torches, likewise behind him, sixty hundred thousand on his right side, likewise on his left side. More devataas, surrounding him, went along reverencing him with fragrant blossoms, roots, wreaths, sandalwood and scented powders and beautiful flags and banners. And countless were the deva-like songs and the musical instruments they played." Hardly a 'solitary' figure as we usually understand the word! Metta and thanks for the good reminders in the sutta and comy. Sarah ===== 24094 From: Sarah Date: Tue Aug 12, 2003 1:29am Subject: Re: [dsg] Egypt Diary: Attachment Hi James (& Dan), --- buddhatrue wrote: > Dear Friends: > > As I am about to embark on my trans-continental adventure, I have had > to say good bye to all of those people who are close to me. It has > not been easy to do so, really not as easy as I thought it might be. Very nice and I look forward to reading many more .... very sincere and useful reflection, I think. Thanks also to Nina for also encouraging the diary format. Metta and bon voyage too. Also to Dan and family about to make a move as well, I think. [Dan, how about some diary entries from you too?? - no one would ever fall asleep on DSG with the two of you sending in your reflections and observations;-)] Sarah ====== 24095 From: Sarah Date: Tue Aug 12, 2003 1:35am Subject: Icaro's diary and lists Hi L.Icaro (& Nina), --- nina van gorkom wrote: > Dear Icaro, > Do not answer, I understand. .... Well, actually I'd understand better if you DO answer;-) Just brief answers (or long ones), when you can find a little time (like every day;-)) ... > Just curious, what will be your work when you are a Lieutenant? Shall we > not > hear from you anymore or is this only temporary? Maybe you can write a > Dhamma diary. .... Yes, that would be another colourful one. You've proved yourself to be a great asset here and I hope that both your work goes well and also your postings to DSG;-) Salute Sarah ===== 24096 From: Sarah Date: Tue Aug 12, 2003 2:58am Subject: Re: [dsg] For Nina and Jaran -Qus on sammasana-~nana (3rd stage of insight) Hi KenO;-), (Mike & All), Sooo nice to hear from you hear again;-) ;-) I hope you and your family are well. Are you still in Brunei? --- Kenneth Ong wrote: > Hi mike > > I think if we ask ourselves whether is group a paramattha dhamma, > then the answer lies there. .... I think this is exactly right. When people hear that we talk about cittas, cetasikas and rupas here, they think it is just an intellectual exercise. However, gradually, when there are brief moments of awareness and a flicker of understanding, it becomes clear that it’s not just an intellectual exercise and whilst we use concepts to discuss here, these concepts are representing realities which can be directly experienced. When we reflect on stages of insight or higher knowledges, it is bound to be conceptual and largely incomprehensible for us as a result. I relly hesitate to even post on this topic. But just as namas and rupas can be directly known and distinguished, even though this may seem like an impossible riddle when we hear about it initially, so too can the conditioned nature of these realities and the truth that these phenomena arise in groups such as rupas arising in kalapas or cetasikas arising together and with cittas. As panna develops, it becomes deeper. As Nina stressed the key lies in the fact there is not just one doorway and one series of javana cittas, but many. As a result, groups can be known directly, but still only one reality is appearing at a time, as its group is arising and falling away. Perhaps we can consider groups as ‘aspects’ of realities or about realities to be known?? It’s difficult for me to comprehend and perhaps the main value is in helping us to see how little direct understanding has been developed so far. Do we mind? Lobha again. In CMA, we read about “matter to be comprehended by insight (sammasanaruupa) because they are to be made the objects of insight contemplation by way of the three characteristics [i.e anicca, dukkha, anatta]” Icaro’s keen interest and qus on Abhidhamma with his humourous touch and kindness reminded me initially of your old posts, Ken O. (easier to catch his photo though;-)) Glad to know you’re around. Metta, Sarah ====== 24097 From: icaro franca Date: Tue Aug 12, 2003 3:10am Subject: Re: [dsg] concentration Dear Nina: Nina: "Just curious, what will be your work when you are a > Lieutenant? Shall we not > hear from you anymore or is this only temporary?" ------------------------------------------------ I will be at Air Force´s Academy for 13 weeks, after that I am coming back to Rio to fulfil my assignment as military officer. As Lieutennant-Engineer (with Msc on Control Systems and Automation) perhaps I will get duties at avionics maintenance and so on. ---------------------------------------------------- > Maybe you can write a > Dhamma diary. --------------------------------------------------- At the first forty days - Quarantine! - it will be very difficult. I hope to survive the Boot Camp !!!!! ------------------------------------------------- N:" When one lives in the right conditions and has > accumulated skill one can > attain mundane jhana, no need for vipassana in order > to attain jhana. It is > different in the case of lokuttara jhana. Some > people could develop jhana > and vipassana and attain enlightenment with > lokuttara cittas accompanied by > jhanafactors of the different stages of jhana. That > is why, as you know from > Abh Sangaha, cittas are also counted as 121." ---------------------------------------------------- Since you´ve mentioned it... 121 Types of Consciousness, with five types of Sotapatti Path-consciousness, Sakadagami Path-consciousness, Anagami Path-consciousness and Arahatta Path-consciousness. That forms the five jhana consciousness plus the Path consciousness. The same for the Fruit-consciousness... and so on! --------------------------------------------------- Nina: "Here > lokuttara jhanacittas are > included. > Nina." ------------------------------------------------- Exact !!! Metta, Ícaro ===== Seize the time, there´s only minutes left to zero Just got a little taste, I gotta get some more, Just me and you 24098 From: icaro franca Date: Tue Aug 12, 2003 3:18am Subject: Re: [dsg] FW: meanings of dhamma, no 5. dear rjkjp1 rjkjp1: "Congratulations on your new posting. Looking forward > to a few years > from now when you tell us you have been made > general:)" ----------------------------------------------------- Oh mine... Rob, I must first (and last, and always) manage to survive the Boot Camp !!!!!!!!!!!! After that, I will try to post some photo of mine with the Air Force Uniform... Metta, Ícaro ===== Seize the time, there´s only minutes left to zero Just got a little taste, I gotta get some more, Just me and you 24099 From: icaro franca Date: Tue Aug 12, 2003 3:33am Subject: Re: [dsg] Icaro's diary and lists Dear Sarah: Sarah: "Well, actually I'd understand better if you DO > answer;-) Just brief > answers (or long ones), when you can find a little > time (like every > day;-))" ----------------------------------------------------- At my case, only after the military quarantine I will be able to exchange posts. And a Dhamma Diary of mine is a good idea !!! I can begin with 1. Kusala Dhamma Akusala Dhamma Abhyakta Dhamma or with 1. Katame dhamma kusala? Yasmim samaye kamavacara kusalam cittam uppannam hoti somanassasahagatam... etc... Sarah, The Dhammasangani is a Supermarket of good thoughts and feelings that I dare to recommend for everyone! ------------------------------------------------ Sarah: "Yes, that would be another colourful one. You've > proved yourself to be a > great asset here and I hope that both your work goes > well and also your > postings to DSG;-)" I will try to post a photo of mine with the blue uniform!!! Metta, Ícaro ===== Seize the time, there´s only minutes left to zero Just got a little taste, I gotta get some more, Just me and you 24100 From: Sarah Date: Tue Aug 12, 2003 3:59am Subject: Re: [dsg] concentration Hi Larry, Thx for all your work with the Vism extracts and summary. I’m sure many people like myself read carefully and consider. I like to also take a look when Jon adds the Pali and when Nina and Jim add comments from the Tika. Slowly and patiently. No response doesn’t mean we’ve all gone to sleep. I know that for Nina and Jim there is a lot of work involved for a start, even when the paragraph may not seem to have a lot of meat. As Jon said, B.Bodhi clarified that the copyright is not an issue in these discussions. If you lose the posts on key points such as ‘penetration’ or ‘endeavouring’, some of these are being put under a new heading of ‘Vism....’ in U.P. There’s always some delay however. Back to your comments here to me: --- LBIDD@w... wrote: > So I take it you don't think concentration plays a particularly > important role in understanding. Is that correct? If so, I think I would > have to disagree, but can't see clearly exactly what concentration > does. This is no doubt due to my own poor concentration. .... I think it plays an important role. It focuses or is one-pointed with regard to its object. In the case of understanding (as in satipatthana), the object is a nama or rupa. Without concentration, panna couldn’t know the object, sati couldn’t be aware of it and so on. However, as concentration arises with every citta, including all akusala cittas, emphasising or trying to develop concentration without any understanding is useless in this regard and merely encourages clinging to the self and to particular results so often, as I see it. ..... >I notice in the > simile at Vism. XIV 4 the money changer experiences the coins with all 5 > physical senses (except hearing). Maybe this is an example of > one-pointedness in the sense of one object for several consciousness > processes. Another example would be considering impermanence over and > over again from different perspectives. Some people eventually "get it" > but most never do. Maybe we could improve the prompt. ..... Whereas sanna (perception) merely marks the object at each moment and ekaggata (concentration) is one-pointed on the object, it is panna (understanding), that like the money-changer, really discerns the object just as it is experienced by the citta (consciousness). As I said, I don’t see it to be of any intrinsic value for the development of insight whether one is conventionally speaking ‘concentrated’ or not or whether the same object appears to be perceived frequently or continuously or not. If we have this idea, it seems to me that we limit or restrict the field of satipatthana with an idea of self again. .... > > You also wrote that you thought ADS related to desire and interest. > Could you expand on this a little? I could see how poor concentration > could be due to lack of focused (concentrated) desire or due to desire > to experience something other than what is happening. Do you think > desire could be used to prompt sammasamadhi as a foundation for insight? ..... To your last question, usually ‘no’, taking desire as being lobha, though indirectly by natural decisive support condition, lobha may be a prompt for wholesome states to arise. After the lobha has arisen, it may even be the object of sati or wise reflection. This is why accumulations are so complicated. I think I’d rather stick to concentration in general here than particular usually-complex disorders. I was merely stressing that we may have a label such as ADS in one situation and show quite different labels in other situations. After all, the hats change continuously, but ekaggata arises arise with each regardless. Again, perhaps it’s back to our purpose: whether it’s to increase our conventional concentration, perform better in our studies or at work or whether it’s to develop insight (vipassana) into the nature of realities. Thx again for all your encouragement to everyone. Keep prodding Kom and all.....now Ken H must be catching some good waves - hope he hasn’t been dumped;-) Metta, Sarah ===== 24101 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Tue Aug 12, 2003 4:11am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism. XIV, 5 Larry Thanks very much for continuing with the text. I find this set of similes very helpful. The 3 kinds of dhamma experience/perceive the object at increasingly deeper levels. Thus although sanna's experience/perception of the object is not incorrect, it is not complete either. I will resume posting the Pali together with each extract for those who like to have both together on the same page. Thanks again. Jon PS I add below the passage you have quoted a further short passage of text that comes after it (a separate paragraph, so easily overlooked). --- LBIDD@w... wrote: > "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) XIV > > 5. Perception is like the child without discretion seeing the coin, > because it apprehends the mere mode of appearance of the object as > blue and so on. Consciousness is like the villager seeing the coin, > because > it apprehends the mode of the object as blue, etc., and because it > extends further, reaching the penetration of its characteristics. > Understanding is like the money-changer seeing the coin, because, > after > apprehending mode of the object as blue, etc., and extending to the > penetration of the characteristics, it extends still further, > reaching the manifestation of the path. That is why this act of understanding should be understood as 'knowing in a particular mode separate from the modes of perceiving and cognizing'. For that is what the words 'it is understanding in the sense of act of understanding' refer to. 24102 From: m. nease Date: Tue Aug 12, 2003 5:09am Subject: Kaeng Kajan Tapes Friends, I've received the three tapes from Kaeng Kajan and have been listening to them while I work. Nice to hear familiar voices, reminds me of Sundays at the foundation. Anumodanaa to all involved (and thanks!). mike 24103 From: m. nease Date: Tue Aug 12, 2003 5:20am Subject: Re: [dsg] A Pleasant Abiding Hi Sarah, ----- Original Message ----- From: Sarah To: Sent: Monday, August 11, 2003 3:23 AM Subject: Re: [dsg] A Pleasant Abiding > Perhaps we can say that 'sukha vihaara' refers to pleasant abiding for > those accomplished in jhanas (jhana-samapatti). Additionally, for ariyan > disciples, with mastery in jhanas, it refers to fruition-attainment (phala > samapatti) according to the level of enlightenment attained. Thanks, this is about the way I had it figured. Thanks especially for all the extra research and all that typing with your creaky elbows--hope the new chair-arms are helping. mike 24104 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Tue Aug 12, 2003 5:58am Subject: Vism.EngPali.XIV, 3 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) XIV 3. In what sense is it understanding? It is understanding (pa~n~naa) in the sense of act of understanding (pajaanana). What is this act of understanding? It is knowing (jaanana) in a particular mode separate from the modes of perceiving (sa~njaanana) and cognizing (vijaanana). For though the state of knowing (jaanana-bhaava) is equally present in perception (sa~n~naa), in consciousness (vi~n~naa.na), and in understanding (pa~n~naa), nevertheless perception is only the mere perceiving of an object as, say, 'blue' or 'yellow'; it cannot bring about the penetration of its characteristics as impermanent, painful, and not-self. Consciousness knows the objects as blue or yellow, and it brings about the penetration of its characteristics, but it cannot bring about, by endeavouring, the manifestation of the [supramundane] path. Understanding knows the object in the way already stated, it brings about the penetration of the characteristics and it brings about, by endeavouring, the manifestation of the path. 3. kena.t.thena pa~n~naati pajaanana.t.thena pa~n~naa. kimida.m pajaanana.m naama? sa~njaananavijaananaakaaravisi.t.tha.m naanappakaarato jaanana.m. sa~n~naavi~n~naa.napa~n~naana.m hi samaanepi jaananabhaave, sa~n~naa ``niila.m piitaka''nti aaramma.nasa~njaananamattameva hoti. ``anicca.m dukkhamanattaa''ti lakkha.napa.tivedha.m paapetu.m na sakkoti. vi~n~naa.na.m ``niila.m piitaka''nti aaramma.na~nca jaanaati, lakkha.napa.tivedha~nca paapeti. ussakkitvaa pana maggapaatubhaava.m paapetu.m na sakkoti. pa~n~naa vuttanayavasena aaramma.na~nca jaanaati, lakkha.napa.tivedha~nca paapeti, ussakkitvaa maggapaatubhaava~nca paapeti. 24105 From: m. nease Date: Tue Aug 12, 2003 5:58am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vipassana retreat in Shelburne, Mass. (has anyone gone?) Hi Nori, ----- Original Message ----- From: norakat147 To: Sent: Monday, August 11, 2003 8:03 PM Subject: [dsg] Vipassana retreat in Shelburne, Mass. (has anyone gone?) > I am considering going to the vipassana retreat in Shelburne, > Massachusetts to learn techniques taught by S. N. Goenka. I haven't done a Goenka retreat and can't advise you one way or the other. I have done quite a bit of meditation, though, (Zen and "Vipassana") and hope that, whatever you do, you'll bear a couple of things in mind: (1) It's fairly easy for some people to cultivate pleasant states that are not kusala and mistake them for kusala because they relieve unpleasant feeling (and arise with pleasant or neutral feeling) for a while. (2) The best way, in my opinion, to prevent this is to study and reflect on the pariyatti very, very closely and compare the details with your own experience. My own tendency is to continually replace unpleasant akusala with pleasant akusala, mistaking this for the replacing of akusala with kusala in jhaana cultivation as in the simile of the peg in Majjhima Nikaya 20 Vitakkasanthana Sutta The Relaxation of Thoughts http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/majjhima/mn20.html It's an easy habit to cultivate and a hard one to break. The conditions for real, liberating insight are rare and complex, while those for pleasant akusala and self-delusion are all to common and simple. Be careful! Just my two cents' worth, mike 24106 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Tue Aug 12, 2003 6:04am Subject: Vism.EngPali.XIV, 4 4. Suppose there were three people, a child without discretion, a villager, and a money-changer, who saw a heap of coins lying on a money-changer's counter. The child without discretion knows merely that the coins are figured and ornamented, long, square, or round; he does not know that they are reckoned as valuable for human use and enjoyment. And the villager knows that they are figured and ornamented, etc., and that they are reckoned as valuable for human use and enjoyment; but he does not know such distinctions as 'This one is genuine, this is false, this is half-value'. The money-changer knows all those kinds, and he does so by looking at the coin, and by listening to the sound of it when struck, and by smelling its smell, tasting its taste, and weighing it in his hand, and he knows that it was made in a certain village or town or city or on a certain mountain or by a certain master. And this may be understood as an illustration. 4. yathaa hi hera~n~nikaphalake .thapita.m kahaapa.naraasi.m eko ajaatabuddhidaarako, eko gaamikapuriso, eko hera~n~nikoti tiisu janesu passamaanesu ajaatabuddhidaarako kahaapa.naana.m cittavicittadiighacaturassaparima.n.dalabhaavamattameva jaanaati, ``ida.m manussaana.m upabhogaparibhoga.m ratanasammata''nti na jaanaati. gaamikapuriso cittavicittaadibhaava.m jaanaati, ``ida.m manussaana.m upabhogaparibhoga.m ratanasammata''nti ca. ``aya.m cheko, aya.m kuu.to, aya.m addhasaaro''ti ima.m pana vibhaaga.m na jaanaati. hera~n~niko sabbepi te pakaare jaanaati, jaananto ca kahaapa.na.m oloketvaapi jaanaati, aako.titassa sadda.m sutvaapi, gandha.m ghaayitvaapi, rasa.m saayitvaapi, hatthena dhaarayitvaapi, asukasmi.m naama gaame vaa nigame vaa nagare vaa pabbate vaa nadiitiire vaa katotipi, asukaacariyena katotipi jaanaati, eva.msampadamida.m veditabba.m. 24107 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Tue Aug 12, 2003 6:07am Subject: Vism.EngPali.XIV, 5 5. Perception is like the child without discretion seeing the coin, because it apprehends the mere mode of appearance of the object as blue and so on. Consciousness is like the villager seeing the coin, because it apprehends the mode of the object as blue, etc., and because it extends further, reaching the penetration of its characteristics. Understanding is like the money-changer seeing the coin, because, after apprehending mode of the object as blue, etc., and extending to the penetration of the characteristics, it extends still further, reaching the manifestation of the path. That is why this act of understanding should be understood as 'knowing in a particular mode separate from the modes of perceiving and cognizing'. For that is what the words 'it is understanding in the sense of act of understanding' refer to. 5. sa~n~naa hi ajaatabuddhino daarakassa kahaapa.nadassana.m viya hoti, niilaadivasena aaramma.nassa upa.t.thaanaakaaramattagaha.nato. vi~n~naa.na.m gaamikassa purisassa kahaapa.nadassanamiva hoti, niilaadivasena aaramma.naakaaragaha.nato, uddha.mpi ca lakkha.napa.tivedhasampaapanato. pa~n~naa hera~n~nikassa kahaapa.nadassanamiva hoti, niilaadivasena aaramma.naakaara.m gahetvaa, lakkha.napa.tivedha~nca paapetvaa, tato uddhampi maggapaatubhaavapaapanato. tasmaa yadeta.m sa~njaananavijaananaakaaravisi.t.tha.m naanappakaarato jaanana.m. ida.m pajaanananti veditabba.m. ida.m sandhaaya hi eta.m vutta.m ``pajaanana.t.thena pa~n~naa''ti. 24108 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Tue Aug 12, 2003 6:13am Subject: Vism.EngPali.XIV, 6 6. However, it [understanding] is not always to be found where perception and consciousness are.(2) But when it is, it is not disconnected from those states. And because it cannot be taken as disconnected thus, 'This is perception, this is consciousness, this is understanding', its difference is consequently subtle and hard to see. Hence the venerable Nagasena said 'A difficult thing, O King, has been done by the Blessed One. --What, venerable Nagasena, is the difficult thing that has been done by the Blessed One? --The difficult thing, O King, done by the Blessed One was the defining of the immaterial states of consciousness and its concomitants, which occur with a single object, and which he declared thus: "This is contact, this is feeling, this is perception, this is volition, this is consciousness"' (Miln. 87). (2) 'In arisings of consciousness with two root-causes [i.e. with non-greed and non-hate but without non-delusion], or without root-cause, understanding does not occur' (Pm. 432). 'Just as pleasure is not invariably inseparable from happiness, so perception and consciousness are not invariably inseparable from understanding. But just as happiness is invariably inseparable from pleasure so understanding is invariably inseparable from perception and consciousness' (Pm. 432). 6. saa panesaa yattha sa~n~naavi~n~naa.naani, na tattha eka.msena hoti. yadaa pana hoti, tadaa avinibbhuttaa tehi dhammehi ``aya.m sa~n~naa, ida.m vi~n~naa.na.m, aya.m pa~n~naa''ti vinibbhujjitvaa alabbhaneyyanaanattaa sukhumaa duddasaa. tenaaha aayasmaa naagaseno ``dukkara.m mahaaraaja bhagavataa kata''nti. ki.m bhante naagasena bhagavataa dukkara.m katanti. ``dukkara.m mahaaraaja bhagavataa kata.m ya.m aruupiina.m cittacetasikaana.m dhammaana.m ekaaramma.ne pavattamaanaana.m vavatthaana.m akkhaata.m aya.m phasso, aya.m vedanaa, aya.m sa~n~naa, aya.m cetanaa, ida.m citta''nti (mi0 pa0 2.7.16). 24109 From: suzakico Date: Tue Aug 12, 2003 0:14pm Subject: Thank you, Nina!!! -2 Here is the second batch. * Note: If there is any comment, please do so freely. But as for my comment to the comments, I feel I should withhold it from here. The idea has been to clarify things, but I do not think I should provide my views in this group unless I am asked. Hope there is anything that can be gained or clarified for all. May all beings be happy! Kio == The glimpse of dhamma #23321 Dear Kio and all, Kio asked: In the last post, you said: "I became used to the different types of citta, consciousness." What was the few specific incidents in your early days that you found the glimpse of dhamma? Nina: My time with A. Sujin 3. At breakfast I listened to A. Sujin's radio program and heard time and again the terms denoting the different cittas arising in sense- door processes and mind-door processes. ((I take this is intended to help honing the awareness to detect what is happening by being mindful. Certainly a way of practicing detached observation. However, this is not the naming game.)) Thai and Pali are very close, and in this way I could learn all these terms. But becoming used to these terms does not mean experiencing all the different cittas. A. Sujin explained that intellectual understanding is a foundation for awareness that can arise later on. She stressed foundation knowledge, knowledge of the details of cittas, of their different characteristics, of cetasikas (mental factors), such as feeling, akusala cetasikas, beautiful cetasikas and rupas. Indeed, as we read in the suttas, listening, considering are most important conditions for the arising of satipatthana, sati and panna that directly realize characteristics of nama and rupa. ((First, having the intellectual training like this, and later realizing the point upon actual experience may enrich, and anchor the point of learning to enhance the condition for detached observation. So, I take this is one method to get to that state of detachment – which is the main objective as mentioned before. However, as anything else, this approach may have weakness, possibly playing the game of naming and cross referencing their experiences to sutta, etc. Still, this practice may make people to grow as they can exchange the views and experiential learning/wisdom along the way as may be taking place in this dhamma study group.)) ((Another point that I see positive in naming citta, etc., is that it gives the practitioner the sense of detachment so that he can name what is going on in the moment. So, this may put him to be in the seat of observer as opposed to have the false sense of self. He then is not as occupied in the problem at hand, having developed this skill to be "objective' like a scientist. Still, once skill is developed, it may be ok to throw away the raft/theory instead of carrying it. I imagine, the master of this skill may be the owner of the skill in his body/unconsciousness. So, it becomes autonomous – like an art.)) We begin to recognize attachment, lobha, and aversion, dosa, in our lives, and this is useful, but we should not take this for awareness. For many years I thought that thinking was awareness. ((I see the point. Learning the state of detachment should bring the wisdom to see the difference. A catch-22 situation. When you experience it, you know it.)) We may think without words, recognize realities very quickly, but, when we are very sincere, there is still an idea of self who does so. It is not panna of satipatthana. I began to know that laughing is conditioned by lobha and this made me feel somewhat uneasy when laughing. ((Uneasy: because her mind was interfering the state of letting go, still. The name of the game is not to do this or do that. Rather, be natural…let go.)) I had an idea of wanting to suppress laughing. Lobha again. A. Sujin explained that we should behave very naturally, and not force ourselves not to laugh. ((Of course)) Just do everything that you are used to doing, but in between right understanding can be developed. ((Yes, the name of the game is effortless effort – nature's work to take place – to bring out the wisdom/compassion.)) We have to know our good moments and our worst moments in a day, she said. I read a sutta where the Buddha spoke to the monks about women and compared a woman to a snake. I did not like that.* A. Sujin answered that this sutta can remind us of our accumulated defilements. If right understanding is not developed, accumulated defilements can cause the arising of many kinds of aksuala, and then we are like a snake. In other words, we should profit from the message contained in a sutta, learning how dangerous akusala is. Moreover, by this sutta the Buddha warned the monks of the danger of getting involved with women. A. Sujin helped me to see the danger of what is accumulated in past lives. We never know how these accumulations can condition cittas at the present. We may do things we did not believe ourselves capable of. When I listened to her lectures in the temple I became sometimes depressed* when I realized how difficult the development of right understanding is. ((*conditioned responses)) Would I ever be able to reach the goal?* But I had no inclinations to look for another way that could hasten the development of right understanding. A. Sujin explained that clinging to progress will not help us at all. When we have more understanding of aeons we will be less inclined to think of progress. Before this life there were aeons of ignorance, and in this life we are fortunate to be able to listen to the teachings and begin to understand the way of development of the eightfold Path. But it has to be a long way before we reach the goal. ((It appears that this is also a conditioned way of seeing….! I would throw such thinking away.)) We can learn to accept that this will take more than one life.* Time and again A. Sujin repeated what the Buddha said in the Exhortation to the Patimokkha: Patience is the greatest ascetism. ((Patience in the sense of not expecting…)) Nina (to be continued). About the Principle way #23352 My Time with A. Sujin 4. Dear Kiyo, I am only taking out one remark from your letter. op 29-06-2003 20:42 schreef suzakico op suzaki@p...: > practicing the `process' (may I also say, sila- > samadhi-panna?) will lead to elimination of suffering. My time with A. Sujin. 4 A. Sujin taught me what is kusala and what is akusala by her example. The observing of precepts is not a matter of rules one has to follow. She explained that there is no self who can direct the arising of kusala, that it is sati which conditions refraining from akusala and performing kusala. ((Great force is functioning; rules are to follow: (Jp.) Daiyu Genzen Kisoku o sonzezu)) Since I was in the diplomatic service I went to cocktail parties and took drinks. A. Sujin would never say, don't drink. She would explain that it is sati that makes one refrain from akusala. Gradually I had less inclinations to drinking, and this happened because of conditions. I did not know that killing snakes or insects was akusala. When I was in A. Sujin¹s house, we were having some sweets, and when flies were eating some crumbs on the floor, A. Sujin said, we let them enjoy these too. I had never considered before to give flies something they would enjoy, it was a new idea to me. I learnt more in detail what was kusala, what akusala. I began to refrain from killing insects and snakes. ((kusala: wholesome act driven by compassion and wisdom!!)) She also taught me that it is kusala sila to pay respect to monks, because the monks observe so many rules. She taught me to kneel down and pay respect in the proper way, touching the floor with forehead and hands three times. She taught me the importance of the Vinaya, and she explained that we laypeople should help the monks by our conduct to observe the Vinaya. We should not give money to them, but hand it to the layperson in charge. When we are in conversation with the monks we should not chat on matters not related to Dhamma. Together with her elderly father we visited temples and offered food. We often had lunch with her father in his favoured restaurant where they served finely sliced pork (mu han in Thai). We did not talk on Dhamma very much at such occasions, but I noticed A. Sujin¹s feeling of urgency, never being forgetful of the Dhamma, whatever she was doing. ((Behavior shows…as if from the body.)) I was clinging very much to Dhamma talks, but throughout the years I learnt that we do not need to talk on Dhamma all the time, but that we should reflect on Dhamma and apply Dhamma in our life. A. Sujin is always such an inspiring example of the application of Dhamma. When we read the Visuddhimagga we see the three divisions of sila, concentration and panna. We may think of a specific order. However, A. Sujin explained that this is the order of teaching, that there is not a specific order according to which we should practise. ((I see this more as a cycle as in wheel turning. But what she says sounds pragmatics.)) When we carefully read about sila, we see that all degrees of sila are dealt with, from the lower degrees up to the highest degrees: the eradication of all defilements. Having kindness for flies and abstaining from killing is sila. Being respectful to monks is sila. Being patient in all situations is sila. Satipatthana is sila ((Yes, this is the process oriented view.)): we should remember the text about restraint of the six doors by mindfulness. It is satipatthana which is the condition for abstaining from akusala. As to concentration or calm, this has many degrees. There is calm with each kusala citta. Calm is not a feeling of calm, it means the absence of akusala. When we cling to silence and to being calm, there is lobha, not calm. Panna has to be very keen to know exactly which moment is akusala and which moment of kusala, otherwise we shall not know the characteristic of calm. When there is awareness of nama or rupa there is also true calm at that moment. As panna grows, calm grows as well. The eradication of defilements is the highest degree of calm. A. Sujin often stressed: when there is right awareness of a nama or rupa there is at that moment higher sila, higher calm and higher panna. Nina. (to be continued) == About conditioning Dear Kio, op 29-06-2003 20:42 schreef suzakico op suzaki@p...: > are you saying > conditioned thinking is `always' bad, or at times bad? Any comment? N: My time with A. Sujin. 5. A. Sujin helped me to see what is akusala and what is kusala in the situation of daily life. She often said, the teachings are not in the book, they are directed to the practice of everyday life. Also the Abhidhamma is not technical, it helps us to have a more refined and detailed knowledge of different cittas as they occur at this moment. When I said that I had enjoyed reading a beautiful sutta, she answered, It is so sad when we only think of what is in the book, when we do not apply it. I realized that we may cling to what we read instead of seeing it as a reminder to develop understanding. ((Should be used as guideline…To me, Abhidhamma may be compared to a map. We need to walk!)) A. Sujin introduced me to her friends at her house, where they consulted books of the Tipitaka and discussed points of the Dhamma. She explained to me, All we study and discuss is not just for ourselves, it is to be shared with others. This impressed me very much because I knew very little about sharing kusala with others. It had not occurred to me that even studying the teachings is not just for oneself. She would always help me to have more kusala cittas. When we were in a temple and we had things to offer to the monks she would hand the gifts and books to me, asking me to present them. I was glad to have the opportunity to pay respect to the Triple Gem and show my reverence to the monks. In fact she was helping others all the time to have kusala cittas. We visited Khun Kesinee who wanted to print my book Buddhism in Daily Life. Khun Kesinee said, Khun Sujin has given me life. This was so true, because she taught us all a new outlook on life, she taught us how right understanding can be developed in our ordinary daily life. She taught us to develop understanding of all phenomena of life in a natural way. Her daughter Khun Amara wrote The Lives and Psalms of the Buddha's Disciples, inspired by the Thera-therigatha. These are the stories of men and women in the Buddha's time who proved in their daily lives that the Path can be developed and enlightenment be attained. A. Sujin and I were very busy to correct the printing proofs of my book, sometimes at night. When we had not heard anything from the printer and I wondered about this, she just answered, No news. This was a good lesson to leave things to conditions and not to expect anything. Later on I thought many times of these words. It is clinging when we expect things to be the way we like them to be. I was glad to meet many of her friends and take part in their life of giving and sharing. We went to temples together with A. Sujin, presenting dana, or attending cremation ceremonies. On Sunday I drove A. Sujin to the temple where she gave lectures on satipatthana and afterwards we sat outside the temple where people asked her more questions about awareness in daily life. Her lectures were put on tape for a radio program. In the course of years the radio stations which sent out her program expanded all over Thailand and to neighbouring countries. I accompanied A. Sujin to different places where people had invited her for a lecture. People were wondering whether there can be awareness of nama and rupa while driving a car. The answer was that it is just the same as being at home, it is normal life. Seeing, thinking or hardness appear time and again. When walking on the street we discussed seeing and thinking of concepts. There were holes in the pavement and if one would only be aware of colour and seeing but not think, one would fall into the holes. We learn that in the ultimate sense there are only nama and rupa, that there are no people, no things. ((May tie to the notion of nothingness.)) This does not mean that we should not think of people and things. Also thinking of concepts is part of our daily life, we could not function without thinking of concepts. Thinking is a conditioned reality, it is nama, not self. We can think with different types of citta, some are kusala and many are akusala. In the development of satipatthana, we come to know our daily life just as it is. Nina. == 24110 From: Date: Tue Aug 12, 2003 1:50pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism. XIV, 5 Hi Jon, Thanks for this correction. Sorry for the oversight. I will address the other points in another thread. Larry Jon: PS I add below the passage you have quoted a further short passage of text that comes after it (a separate paragraph, so easily overlooked). 24111 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Tue Aug 12, 2003 2:32pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Qus on sammasana-~nana (3rd stage of insight) Dear Nina, > -----Original Message----- > From: nina van gorkom [mailto:nilo@e...] > Sent: Saturday, August 09, 2003 12:33 PM > To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com > Subject: Re: [dsg] Qus on sammasana-~nana (3rd stage of insight) > When a stage of insight arises, nama is directly > known. Then it can be directly known that seeing as nama, an element that > experiences. > Any additions by Kom are most welcome!!! Kom may discuss this in > Jack's Bay We have never gone this far ;-) kom 24112 From: Date: Tue Aug 12, 2003 2:42pm Subject: Vism. XIV 3-6 Hi Jon, You wrote, "The 3 kinds of dhamma experience/perceive the object at increasingly deeper levels. Thus although sanna's experience/perception of the object is not incorrect, it is not complete either." Could you expand on this a little. There are many kinds of consciousness. Eye consciousness, for example, would seem to be more basic than sanna. How can consciousness penetrate the general characteristics without understanding? Isn't understanding both a cetasika (panna) and a consciousness (amoha)? How does understanding lead to the manifestation of the path while consciousness doesn't? Is there a difference between the penetration of the characteristics by consciousness and the penetration by panna? You said that sanna's experience of the object is not incorrect but because both consciousness and understanding penetrate the general characteristics I would say they see the object "as it is" while sanna does not. In a previous email I called sanna's knowledge erroneous. Perhaps the error would be in taking sanna's knowledge as complete. We can discuss sanna's relationship to concept when we get to the exposition of sanna in the text, if you like. The illustration given there strongly suggests error, as I remember it. Any other points of controversy in this thread? Larry 24113 From: Date: Tue Aug 12, 2003 3:47pm Subject: Re: [dsg] concentration Hi Jon, Larry: "I think what you are referring to is vicara (sustained thought)." Jon: "It depends whether you go by the name or by the detailed description ;-)). I think you feel that the term 'sustained thought' seems to fit the kind of continuity you are interested in finding out about. But according to the actual description, it is vitakka that has the greater role in citta taking the same object repeatedly." L: Okay. What about the other points? Specifically, what is your understanding of concentration? The way I see it, vitakka and vicara is a crude form of concentration. My reasoning is that "jhana factor" = "jhana characteristic" and, as jhana factor, vitakka and vicara get the ball rolling, so to speak. Experientially, whenever I had something that seemed like an insight it was preceeded by vitakka and vicara. But occaisionally there was a bolt of lightening, "out of the blue". I can't explain that but I wouldn't rule out a role for concentration in a more subtle form. For example, I can carry around a "problem" for several days without thinking directly about it and then a solution arises. Also there are many subtle benefits to the practice of concentration not aimed at jhana. This necessitates the willful revisting of one object, the breath for example. I think it might actually be a way of cultivating the basic matrix of kusala citta and cetasika. There seems to be a general complaint about the usefulness of this proceedure. My only response is that it seems to provide a subtle salutary influence and a certain amount of clarity. And "usefulness", i.e., "insight", is little more than conceptual, most of the time, in the ordinary sense of cultivating right view. What is your understanding of concentration as the proximate cause of panna? Is this concentration no different than ekagatta cetasika that arises with every consciousness? Why not say attention (manasikara) is the proximate cause of panna? Larry 24114 From: Date: Tue Aug 12, 2003 4:12pm Subject: Re: [dsg] concentration Hi Sarah, Sarah: "However, as concentration arises with every citta, including all akusala cittas, emphasising or trying to develop concentration without any understanding is useless in this regard and merely encourages clinging to the self and to particular results so often, as I see it." L: I agree. There has to be right view in order to develop right concentration. And, seemingly, there has to be right concentration in order for understanding to arise. What I am trying to understand is why understanding (panna) doesn't arise. Maybe because the 8 path factors haven't arisen. I have exhausted all my thoughts on concentration on Jon but I would be interested in whatever you have to say in regard to the questions I asked him. Also I think a better understanding of concentration could improve learning in general. Larry 24115 From: Jim Anderson Date: Tue Aug 12, 2003 6:00pm Subject: Re: [dsg] concentration Dear Sarah and Larry, Just to re-assure you that I'm quite interested in the Vism thread. As I'm carefully studying the text in the Pali along with the Maha Tika and comparing ~Naa.namoli's and Tin's translations with the text, it will take some time for me to go over the material and try to make sense of it all. I hope to have some worthwhile comments to post later on but I have to warn you that I'm moving along quite slowly, so please be patient. There are some words and phrases in ~Naa.namoli's translation that I have been questioning. I realize that many of the (mostly minor) points may only be of interest to me and a few others looking at it in Pali terms. At least, it's a good opportunity for me and others to study the Vism in some depth and get to know it better. It's been 20 years since I first read through the whole panna section and I don't remember much of it. Best wishes, Jim > Hi Larry, > > Thx for all your work with the Vism extracts and summary. I'm sure many > people like myself read carefully and consider. I like to also take a look > when Jon adds the Pali and when Nina and Jim add comments from the Tika. > Slowly and patiently. No response doesn't mean we've all gone to sleep. I > know that for Nina and Jim there is a lot of work involved for a start, > even when the paragraph may not seem to have a lot of meat. As Jon said, > B.Bodhi clarified that the copyright is not an issue in these discussions. > > If you lose the posts on key points such as 'penetration' or > 'endeavouring', some of these are being put under a new heading of > 'Vism....' in U.P. There's always some delay however. 24116 From: norakat147 Date: Tue Aug 12, 2003 9:11pm Subject: Meditation practice as taught by Sidharttha Gotama himself hi, While I am aware of certain methods of meditation, I was still wondering what everyone out there felt was closest to what Gotama's arahat disciples practiced. I would appreciate any links or text posts describing methods. Thank you all again for your valuable comments on past posts. They have helped me greatly. with metta, nori 24117 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Aug 12, 2003 9:16pm Subject: Re: [dsg] wishes to Icaro Dear Icaro, op 12-08-2003 12:10 schreef icaro franca op icarofranca@y...: > > At the first forty days - Quarantine! - it will be > very difficult. I hope to survive the Boot Camp !!!!! N: Boot Camp must be terribly severe. But wherever you are, you take the Abhidhamma with you, and I do not mean just the book. My you develop more and more understanding in the midst of your harsh life, and become more and more convinced that nama and rupa are appearing all the time, ready to be objects of understanding. With all my best wishes, Nina. 24118 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Aug 12, 2003 9:16pm Subject: Re: [dsg] FW: Comy Mahaaraahulovaadsutta. no 7 B Dear Sarah, op 12-08-2003 10:22 schreef Sarah op sarahdhhk@y...: > I also enjoyed the descriptions of all the pageantry and colour. We have a > kind of coral tree here in Hong Kong. I wonder if it's the same? N: I found the descriptions at first long, and then I started to like them more and more, I grew into them. I was looking in the books what a coral tree is like, exciting you have it. I found interesting info about pageantry in the Cullavamsa, you gave me decads ago. There is a good index about statues, plants, etc. I am glad you appreciate the good reminders. Nina. 24119 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Tue Aug 12, 2003 10:35pm Subject: RE: [dsg] concentration Hi Sarah & Larry, -----Original Message----- From: Sarah [mailto:sarahdhhk@y...] Sent: Tuesday, August 12, 2003 4:00 AM To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [dsg] concentration ..... Thx again for all your encouragement to everyone. Keep prodding Kom and all.....now Ken H must be catching some good waves - hope he hasn’t been dumped;-) Metta, ======================= Yes, I feel quite prodded. That's what a good friend does! Thanks Larry (and Sarah). kom 24120 From: kenhowardau Date: Tue Aug 12, 2003 11:48pm Subject: two versions Hi Sarah, > now Ken H must be catching some good waves - hope he > hasn't been dumped;-) Thanks for your concern: I'm keeping my head above water and enjoying dsg as always. You wrote to Nina; > I used to have an idea of the Bodhisatta leaving the > palace in the dark and all alone. In fact he left > during the full-moon, 'throwing aside' the 'empire' > 'with indifference as though it were a blob of > spittle'. Are the stories about him leaving quietly in the dark folklore or are they in the Tipitaka? It seems that there are always two contrasting versions of the life of the Buddha. In one, Prince Gotama starts out as an ordinary man left to his own devices in a world where there is no knowledge of the Middle Way. In the other, he is a bodhisatta who has been instructed by many Buddhas over countless aeons and who is amassing a scrupulously detailed knowledge of the Middle Way -- all under the watchful eyes of gods and devas. In absolute terms, there are only the namas and rupas of the present moment -- there are no Buddhas, Bodhisattas, or devas in the sense of 'living beings.' Stories of the Buddha are conventional truths which can be said to fit consistently with absolute reality. Since each of the above conflicting, contradictory versions is consistent with reality, are they both true? Could it be that one story is true in human eyes and another is true in the eyes of devas? That might explain how the Buddha is said to have been ten feet tall with the head of a lion, legs of an antelope etc., -- deva talk. (?) Kind regards, Ken H 24121 From: christine_forsyth Date: Wed Aug 13, 2003 0:51am Subject: Wishing our lives away Dear Group, I was listening to a late night talk show and the discussion was about how most people live life from Friday night to Sunday night - the rest is not Life - it's just Work. From Monday morning, most workers are looking forward to Friday night. Wednesday is known as 'hump' day - climbing up the slope from Monday to Wednesday lunch time, getting over the hump, and then sliding down the other side from Wednesday to Friday. I think this is true of many people, they ignore the present moment and spend the time wishing their lives away. I know I often do. One speaker said that life is so short - 20 years is the equivalent of about 1000 weeks. Can most of expect to live another 1000 weeks? How best to spend the time left? metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time 24122 From: icaro franca Date: Wed Aug 13, 2003 1:32am Subject: Re: [dsg] wishes to Icaro Dear Nina: > N: Boot Camp must be terribly severe. But wherever > you are, you take the > Abhidhamma with you, and I do not mean just the > book. ---------------------------------------------------- YEAH !!!!! At the Theravadin Buddhism, one gets in one hand the Abhidhamma´s treatises, and at the other the discipline (Vinaya). The Abhidhamma will be always with me (As the Zen says, "With it, Fishmongers and butchers would become Buddhas" - No Michael, I am not refering to you in this quote!), either as a book, or as the own Vipassana or Parami´s Accumulation... and the military discipline will do good to me, since the Vinaya concerns only to monks - and I have not the calling to be one! ----------------------------------- Nina: "My you develop more and more understanding in the > midst of your harsh life, > and become more and more convinced that nama and > rupa are appearing all the > time, ready to be objects of understanding. > With all my best wishes," ------------------------------------------- Thanxs Nina! As quoted at the last stanza of Dhammasangani " What are the fully complete Dhammas ? The Four Kusalas, The Four Vipakkas, the three ( I couldn´t get a good translation of these!) ´Good Characteristícs´, Rupa, Nibbana - these are the Fully Complete Dhammas" Your regards are very precious for me! Metta, Ícaro ===== Seize the time, there´s only minutes left to zero Just got a little taste, I gotta get some more, Just me and you 24123 From: icaro franca Date: Wed Aug 13, 2003 1:57am Subject: Re: [dsg] two versions Hi Ken, Ken: "Are the stories about him leaving quietly in the > dark > folklore or are they in the Tipitaka? It seems that > there > are always two contrasting versions of the life of > the > Buddha. In one, Prince Gotama starts out as an > ordinary man > left to his own devices in a world where there is no > knowledge > of the Middle Way. In the other, he is a bodhisatta > who has > been instructed by many Buddhas over countless aeons > and > who is amassing a scrupulously detailed knowledge of > the > Middle Way -- all under the watchful eyes of gods > and > devas." --------------------------------------------------- Ken, at the Sutta Nipatta, Mahavagga, Nalaka Sutta, we find the Sage Asita inquiring the gods about all the excitement at Lumbini Village: "4.´In a village called Lumbini, in the Sakyan country´, answered the gods,´a boddhisatta has been born! A being set for buddhahood has been born, a superlative without comparison, a precious pearl of the health and goodness of the human world. That´s what they´re so glad, so excited, so pleased." At the rest of the sutta, the life and mission of the Buddha is resumed and stated for Asita at Siddartha´s father and family. At the Jatakas we get many stories of the depart of Gautama from this home to the wilderness and his previous encarnations: as Dipankara, with Mecha the student at his feet and many others. All these are usually canonical in form and substance. ------------------------------------------------ Ken: " Stories of > the > Buddha are conventional truths which can be said to > fit > consistently with absolute reality. Since each of > the > above conflicting, contradictory versions is > consistent > with reality, are they both true?" -------------------------------------------------- As a Reader of Lotus Sutra could say, there are two modes of this question: the Historical Buddha, that is mentioned at the chapters 1 to 13 of Lotus Sutra, and the "Eternal Buddha", at the rest of the book - you can call him the own Dhamma, the Law, Nibbana or even god! Both viewpoints are right. ------------------------------------------------ Ken: "Could it be that one story is true in human eyes and > another is true in the eyes of devas? That might > explain > how the Buddha is said to have been ten feet tall > with > the head of a lion, legs of an antelope etc., -- > deva > talk. (?)" --------------------------------------------------- Tantra realms, Tantra speaking. Metta, Ícaro ===== Seize the time, there´s only minutes left to zero Just got a little taste, I gotta get some more, Just me and you 24124 From: Sarah Date: Wed Aug 13, 2003 2:39am Subject: Re: [dsg] two versions Hi Ken H & Icaro, --- kenhowardau wrote: > Hi Sarah, > Thanks for your concern: I'm keeping my head above water > and enjoying dsg as always. ..... Just checking;-) .... > Are the stories about him leaving quietly in the dark > folklore or are they in the Tipitaka? It seems that there > are always two contrasting versions of the life of the > Buddha. In one, Prince Gotama starts out as an ordinary man > left to his own devices in a world where there is no knowledge > of the Middle Way. In the other, he is a bodhisatta who has > been instructed by many Buddhas over countless aeons and > who is amassing a scrupulously detailed knowledge of the > Middle Way -- all under the watchful eyes of gods and > devas. ..... I think that in the Pali canon there is remarkably little discrepancy and the different versions are often different aspects only - with more knowledge and reflection, more parts of the jigsaw puzzle fit into place. ..... > In absolute terms, there are only the namas and rupas of > the present moment -- there are no Buddhas, Bodhisattas, > or devas in the sense of 'living beings.' Stories of the > Buddha are conventional truths which can be said to fit > consistently with absolute reality. Since each of the > above conflicting, contradictory versions is consistent > with reality, are they both true? > > Could it be that one story is true in human eyes and > another is true in the eyes of devas? That might explain > how the Buddha is said to have been ten feet tall with > the head of a lion, legs of an antelope etc., -- deva > talk. (?) ..... I think both reports are correct and not just deva talk;-). Here are two extracts from the same source, the first confirming the ‘leaving quietly in the dark’ and the second confirming the pageantry and crowds of devas accompanying him, almost identical to the one I was reading from yesterday: ***** From Introduction to the Jatakas, here in Henry Clarke Warren’s ‘Buddhism in Translations’ http://www.sacred-texts.com/bud/bits/index.htm ***** 1. Now Kanthaka was eighteen cubits long from his neck to his tail, and of corresponding height; he was strong and swift, and white all over like a polished conch-shell. If he neighed or stamped, the sound was so loud as to spread through the whole city; therefore the gods exerted their power, and muffled the sound of his neighing, so that no one heard it; and at every step he took they placed the palms of their hands under his feet. The Future Buddha rode on the mighty back of the mighty steed, made Channa hold on by the tail, and so arrived at midnight at the great gate of the city. Now the king, in order that the Future Buddha should not at any time go out of the city without his knowledge, had caused each of the two leaves of the gate to be made so heavy as to need a thousand men to move it. But the Future Buddha had a vigor and a strength that was equal, when reckoned in elephant-power, to the strength of ten thousand million elephants, and, reckoned in man-power, to the strength of a hundred thousand million men. ***** 2. Thus the Future Buddha, casting away with indifference a universal sovereignty already in his grasp,--spewing it out as if it were but phlegm,--departed from the city in great splendor on the full-moon day of the month Âsâlhi, when the moon was in Libra. And when he had gone out from the city, he became desirous of looking back at it; but no sooner had the thought arisen in his mind, than the broad earth, seeming to fear lest the Great Being might neglect to perform the act of looking back, split and turned round like a potter's wheel. When the Future Buddha had stood a while facing the city and gazing upon it, and had indicated in that place the spot for the "Shrine of the Turning Back of Kanthaka," he turned Kanthaka in the direction in which he meant to go, and proceeded on his way in great honor and exceeding glory. For they say the deities bore sixty thousand torches in front of him, and sixty thousand behind him, and sixty thousand on the right hand, and sixty thousand on the left hand. Other deities, standing on the rim of the world, bore torches past all numbering; and still other deities, as well as serpents and birds, accompanied him, and did him homage with heavenly perfumes, garlands, sandal-wood powder, and incense. And the sky was as full of coral flowers as it is of pouring water at the height of the rainy season. Celestial choruses were heard; and on every side bands of music played, some of eight instruments, and some of sixty,--sixty-eight hundred thousand instruments in all. It was as when the storm-clouds thunder on the sea, or when the ocean roars against the Yugandhara rocks. Advancing in this glory, the Future Buddha in one night passed through three kingdoms, and at the end of thirty leagues he came to the river named Anomâ. ***** Now you've surfaced, we look forward to more feedback;-) Metta, Sarah p.s Icaro, look f/w to seeing you in uniform. Best wishes for Boot Camp. You'll be missed here. 24125 From: icaro franca Date: Wed Aug 13, 2003 3:01am Subject: Re: [dsg] two versions Dear Sarah: Sarah: "p.s Icaro, look f/w to seeing you in uniform. Best > wishes for Boot Camp. > You'll be missed here." ------------------------------------------------------- Don´t worry, Sarah. The Boot Camp will be only at September. As I´ve said to Nina, The Abhidhamma will come with me, either as a book or as the vipassana or my own Accumulation! And, after the military quarantine... Tally Ho! Corn beef hash !!! Metta, Ícaro ===== Seize the time, there´s only minutes left to zero Just got a little taste, I gotta get some more, Just me and you 24126 From: Dan D. Date: Wed Aug 13, 2003 3:10am Subject: Re: Vipassana retreat in Shelburne, Mass. (has anyone gone?) Dear Nori, Goenka is a remarkable man, and it would be worth the trip to Shelburne Falls just to see him in action (at least on video tape). At the retreat, you will get great practice in developing concentration -- some "right concentration" (samma samadhi), and some "wrong concentration" (miccha samadhi). The difficult part is to discern the difference between the miccha and the samma. Goenka is a masterful teacher, but this discernment he does not address adequately for many students. As a consequence, it is very easy to fall into the trap of associating "pleasant sensation" as good, "unpleasant sensation" as bad. When that happens, progress on the path comes to a standstill, while the idea of "I am making great progress" becomes prominent. To avoid this pitfall, it may be helpful to read the section on "Corruptions of insight" in Vissudhimagga (Sorry I don't have the chapter and section numbers handy...I'm moving in two days and have already packed my Dhamma books). Here you will read about a number of very pleasant and unusual mental phenomena that may occur when concentration is sharp, e.g. sensation of illumination, waves of warm & fuzzy lightness passing through the body, sensation that the body is a little Buddha statue while the mind is observing the statue from behind the eyes. These are referred to by Buddhagosa as "corruptions of insight." They are termed "corruptions" not because there is anything wrong or corrupt about them, but because they are so easily taken as fruits of insight and clung to as real progress in insight: "I experienced such amazing things on the meditation retreat! I am really close to enlightenment. If I could just experience these things a little more, I'd be fully liberated." However, there is nothing particularly beneficial about these phenomena and their arising does not mean that insight is being developed. On the other hand, when these phenomena (or any mental phenomena, for that matter, including the mundane phenomena of everyday living) are truly understood as anicca, anatta, dukkha, insight is developed. Some of the phenomena listed as "corruptions of insight" are bound to arise. They should not be clung to as (or even viewed as) development of insight, but they must not be viewed as fearful or corrupt in and of themselves. They arise, they tend to be pleasant, and they have no real meaning. When a meditator attributes meaning to them that they do not have, wrong view and wrong concentration are developed, despite how adamant the meditator may be that right view and right concentration are what are being cultivated. After all, how could something that feels so good and so right and takes so much effort and is so readily described using Pali Buddhist terminology be wrong? Very, very easily. Disarminginly easily. Strikingly easily, even naturally. This caveat aside, there may not be a better meditation retreat readily available in the U.S. I wish you the best, Nori. My advice? If you go the retreat, work very diligently, but don't assume that because you worked hard your work was always right. In fact, you may very well have only a few moments of "right effort" in the whole ten days. Will you be able to tell which efforts are samma and which are miccha? If you are like the rest of us, you won't be able to. After many years and many retreats, you might get an inkling that some of the efforts that you had been convinced were right were really wrong. After many more years of contemplation, you might start to recognize the characteristics that distinguish the samma's from the miccha's (samma and miccha as referring to effort, concentration, view, etc.) Re texts that support Goenka's method: He claims his method closely parallels the Satipatthana sutta (in MN and DN). He even teaches a seven day course/meditation retreat in which he discusses in great detail the connection between his method and the Satipatthana sutta. Despite going through the course and working hard to see the connection, I'm still not convinced that the connection is strong or direct. (In fact, the more I look at it, the more I am convinced that there isn't much connection). Still, Goenka does not have a social or political agenda aside from teaching Dhamma. This is of enormous value and makes his courses relatively safe. Dan 24127 From: Sarah Date: Wed Aug 13, 2003 3:28am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Is solitude not dukkha? As well as absence of love and friendship? Hi Ray, Kom, Mike, Victor & All, Ray: > That is what the Blessed One said. Having said it, the One > Well-gone further > said this: > > "All-conquering, > all-knowing, intelligent; > with regard to all things, > unadhering; > all-abandoning, > released in the ending of craving: > him I call > a man who lives > alone." > Kom: >This is an excellent point on the meaning of solitude (viveka). Vivekha ultimately means solitude from kilesa, not just living by oneself, or living in tranquil meditation all the time. Monks (as well as the laypersons) can be said to be living alone (appropriate to their level of panna) even >without living by themselves. ***** S: Thank you both for your helpful contributions to the thread and this good summary. I’ll add further detail on viveka (which I posted before) at the end of this post as I think it’s useful. I’m also reminded of a fine verse Mike posted a week or so ago (to Icaro): Mike: > Blissful is passionlessness in the world, > The overcoming of sensual desires; > But the abolition of the conceit I am -- > That is truly the supreme bliss. > > Udana II, 1 Here is Masefield’s less lyrical but more detailed translation: “Separation is bliss for the one who is satisfied, whose Dhamma has been heard, who beholds. Harmlessness is bliss, that control with respect to living beings in this world. Freedom from lust where this world is concerned is bliss, that transcendence of sense-desires. The driving out of the ‘I am’ conceit - this is indeed the highest bliss.” This was uttered by the Buddha soon after his seven day experiencing of the ‘bliss of liberation’ (vimuttisukhapa.tisa.mvedi) to the brahmin youth. Notes from the Comy: ***** “Separation is bliss (sukho viveko)”; substrate spearation, reckoned as nibbana, is bliss. “For the one who is satisfied (tu.t.thassa)”: for the one who is satisfied by way of contentedness associated with the knowledge associated with the four paths....... “The driving out of the ‘I am’ conceit (asmimaanassa yo vinaya)”: by this means, moreover, it is arahantship that is talked about. For arahantship is spoken of as ‘the driving out, by way of tranquillization, of the ‘I am’ conceit”; and there is known no bliss beyond this, for which reason he said “This is indeed the highest bliss”. So did he bring that teaching to a climax by way of arahantship. ***** Metta, Sarah ===== Detail on Viveka (seclusion, separation, detachment) 1.From Nyantiloka dictionary: http://www.palikanon.com/english/wtb/dic3_v.htm * viveka 'detachment', seclusion, is according to Niddesa, of 3 kinds: * (1) bodily detachment (káya-viveka), i.e. abiding in solitude free from alluring sensuous objects; * (2) mental detachment (citta-viveka), i.e. the inner detachment from sensuous things; * (3) detachment from the substrata of existence (upadhi-viveka). In the description of the 1st absorption, * the words "detached from sensuous things" (vivicc' eva kámehi) refer, according to Vis.M. IV, to 'bodily detachment'; * the words "detached from karmically unwholesome things" (vivicca akusalehidhammehi) refer to 'mental detachment'; * the words "born of detachment" (vivekaja), to the absence of the 5 hindrances. -------------------------------------------------------- * viveka-sukha 'happiness of detachment', or aloofness (s. prec). "Whoso is addicted to society and worldly bustle, he will not partake of the happiness of renunciation, detachment, peace and enlightenment" (A.VII.86). ======================================================== 2. From Sammohavinodani, Comy to Dhammasangani, PTS, (1544): on seclusion as in “he develops the mindfulness awakening factor which is dependent on seclusion”: “Vivekanissita.m (“dependent on seclusion”) = viveke nissita.m. Seclusion is secludedness; it is fivefold, namely seclusion through substitution of opposites (tada”ngaviveka), through suppression (vikkhambhana), cutting off (samuccheda), tranquillisation (pa.tipasaddhi) and renunciation (nissara.na). “Herein, seclusion through substitution of opposites is insight; seclusion through suppression is the eight attainments; seclusion through cutting off is the path; seclusion through tranquillisation is fruition; seclusion through renunciation is nibbana, which has renounced all signs. Thus “dependent on seclusion” is dependent on this fivefold seclusion......” -------------------------------------------------------- 24128 From: buddhatrue Date: Wed Aug 13, 2003 3:50am Subject: Re: [dsg] two versions --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, icaro franca wrote: > Dear Sarah: > Sarah: "p.s Icaro, look f/w to seeing you in uniform. > Best > > wishes for Boot Camp. > > You'll be missed here." > > ------------------------------------------------------- > > Don´t worry, Sarah. The Boot Camp will be only at > September. As I´ve said to Nina, The Abhidhamma will > come with me, either as a book or as the vipassana or > my own Accumulation! > > And, after the military quarantine... Tally Ho! Corn > beef hash !!! > > Metta, Ícaro Hi Icaro, I am very puzzled. How do you reconcile being a sincere Buddhist and entering a career where you kill people (or threaten to kill them)? Many on this list seem to be very happy for you but, honestly, I am very shocked. Can you help me understand? Metta, James 24129 From: m. nease Date: Wed Aug 13, 2003 5:51am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Is solitude not dukkha? As well as absence of love and friendship? Hi Sarah, Thanks for the great quotes on viveka, and especially for the Masefield translation of the Udaana quote. What was the source of the latter? mike 24130 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Wed Aug 13, 2003 8:47am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Is solitude not dukkha? As well as absence of love and friendship? Hi Sarah, -----Original Message----- From: Sarah [mailto:sarahdhhk@y...] Sent: Monday, August 11, 2003 12:55 AM To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Is solitude not dukkha? As well as absence of love and friendship? The new OS I have (Windows 2000) doesn't treat my Thai CDs too well. Until I figure out if there's a way around this, this probably will be a while.... kom 24131 From: icaro franca Date: Wed Aug 13, 2003 9:20am Subject: Re: [dsg] two versions Dear James: James: "I am very puzzled. How do you reconcile being a > sincere Buddhist > and entering a career where you kill people (or > threaten to kill > them)? Many on this list seem to be very happy for > you but, > honestly, I am very shocked. Can you help me > understand?" ---------------------------------------------------- I barely consider myself as a layperson on Buddhism! You see, to take the five vows - Not Murder, Not Steal, Not adulterate, Not Lie and Not Take Drugs and inebriant beverages - is the duty fo a monk, that take also the yellow robe and the Bhikku way of life. As a layperson I bear in mind the aspiration to get the stamina and moral courage to follow all them entirely. And I must to put in rememberance that the buddhism doesn´t preach at a direct way the non-violence and the vegganism. Jainists do it. I only follow the precepts as an ideal to be nurtured, not as a "Noblesse Obligé" pious vow. Japanese Samurais were great warriors and good buddhists also. There´s no contradiction between these terms. Metta, Ícaro ===== Seize the time, there´s only minutes left to zero Just got a little taste, I gotta get some more, Just me and you 24132 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Aug 13, 2003 10:55am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism. XIV, 6 Dear Larry, Thank you very much for making the texts available here. op 12-08-2003 01:39 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > 'Just as pleasure is not invariably inseparable from happiness so > perception and consciousness are not invariable inseparably from > understanding. But just as happiness is invariably inseparable from > pleasure so understanding is inseparable invariably from perception and > consciousness' (Pm. 432). > > Larry: I think there is a typo in the text. Read "perception and > consciousness are not invariably inseparable from understanding". N: It is said in a complicated way. With cittas of the sensesphere, pleasure (pleasant feeling) and happiness (rapture, piti) arise always together, but it is not so in the higher jhanas. When panna arises, it must accompany citta, and it must be accompanied by sanna (one of the seven universals). How could panna arise alone, without citta? However, not all cittas are accompanied by panna. You are right about the typo. Nina. 24133 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Aug 13, 2003 10:55am Subject: FW: meanings of dhamma, no 6. ---------- Van: nina van gorkom Datum: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 09:37:40 +0200 Aan: Pali yahoo Onderwerp: meanings of dhamma, no 6. meanings of dhamma, no 6 The Saddaniti states with regard to the meaning of dhamma as pa~n~naa: The Saddaniti explains dhamma as pu~n~na, merit, by the same passage as used by the Atthasaalinii to explain dhamma as guna, merit: The Saddaniti explains the meaning of dhamma as concept: N: Words: pa~n~natti : designation, name, idea, notion. adhivacana (n): term attribute nirutti (f): interpretation, expression. The word pa~n~natti, concept, stands for name and for the idea expressed by a name or term. Names can designate what is reality in the absolute sense (paramattha dhammas, such as kusala, akusala, sound, etc.) and also what is not real in the absolute sense, such as person, house. The Saddaniti explains the meaning of dhamma as aapatti as follows: N: In the Vinaya, Suttavibha¹nga, four kinds of defeat are dealt with: sexual misbehaviour, stealing, killing and lying. When a monk transgresses in these ways he is no longer a monk. The offenses which are classified as sa'nghaadisesa are of a lesser degree but still require a formal meeting of the Sangha so that the disciplinary measures to be taken can be decided upon. Nina 24134 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Aug 13, 2003 10:55am Subject: adieu hurts Dear Sarah, You were mentioning, with regard to James' diary that it is so natural that we feel sadness when taking leave. His diary is very honest. This reminded me of decads ago, when we were in Sri Lanka and you took me to the airport after our stay, with the late Captain Perrera. I cried, because I was so sad to leave A. Sujin and all the dear people in Sri Lanka. I quote what I wrote in my "Pilgrimage to Sri Lanka": Date: Wed Aug 13, 2003 10:55am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism. XIV 3, subco.questions!! Dear Larry, Jim and all, using Jim's useful corrections I came back to the text of the subco on Vis 3 we analysed, and now I repea first. But how does consciousness (vi~n~naa.na) bring about the penetration of the characteristics? > pa~n~naaya dassitamaggena. By way of the path seen by wisdom. lakkha.naaramma.nikavipassanaaya hi anekavaara.m lakkha.naani pa.tivijjhitva pa.tivijjhitvaa pavattamaanaaya pagu.nabhaavato paricayavasena > ~naa.navippayuttacittena pi vipassanaa sambhavati, When the consciousness is unaccompanied by understanding, insight (still) increases, because the practice (paricaya) has become skilled (pagu.nabhaavato, by skilled development) by insight that has as object the characteristics (lakkha.naaramma.nikavipassanaaya), and is evolving (pavattamaanaaya) after it has penetrated again and again the characteristics at various moments (presenting themselves); yathaa ta.m pagu.nassa ganthassa sajjhaayane ~naayaagataa pi vaaraa na > vi~n~naayanti. even as in the case of someone who is skilled at methodical study from books, the actual moments are not discerned by him. lakkha.napa.tivedhan ti ca lakkha.naana.m aarammanakara.namatta.m sandhaaya vutta.m, na pa.tivijjhana.m. And the "penetration of characteristics", is stated with reference to merely making the characteristics the object, not to penetrating (the characteristics). Now I continue the subco text: ussakkitvaati udayabbaya~naa.napa.tipaa.tiyaa aayuuhitvaa. As to the word having developed (with endeavour), this means, having cultivated by the practice of the insight realizing the arising and falling away (first stage of principal insight). maggapaatubhaava.m paapetu.m na sakkoti asambodhasabhaavattaa. The stage of being not awakened cannot bring about the manifestation of the Path. vuttanayavasenaati vi~n~naa.ne vuttanayavasena aaramma.na~nca jaanaati, lakkha.napa.tivedha~nca paapeti. As to the words, by the way already stated, this means, by the way already stated as to consciousness, and this cognizes the object and penetrates the characteristics. attano pana ana~n~nasaadhaara.nena aanubhaavena ussakkitvaa maggapaatubhaava~nca paapeti. But after having developed with extraordinary endeavour, all by oneself, the manifestation of the Path can be attained. Questions: it seems that pa~n`naa refers here to lokuttara pa~n~naa, and here even to the Buddha¹s panna, in contrast to the state of asombodha. It also seems that citta with developing insight (of rise and fall) is reckoned as consciousness, although this is also accompanied by panna, but mundane panna. Is this so all the time we read about consciousness in these passages? Nina. 24136 From: Jim Anderson Date: Wed Aug 13, 2003 11:40am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism. XIV 3, subco.questions!! Dear Nina, Thank-you for your revised translation along with your questions. I will study what you have written and respond in more detail at a later time. For now, I'd like to respond to just the following: << But how does consciousness (vi~n~naa.na) bring about the penetration of the characteristics? > pa~n~naaya dassitamaggena. By way of the path seen by wisdom.>> In "By way of the path seen by wisdom", I had also come up with a similar translation initially. But now looking at the 'seen' for 'dassita' I think this is likely a mistake. The usual translation for 'dassita' (a causative p.p.) is 'shown'. So 'by way of the path shown by wisdom' is better, I think. But still it is difficult to grasp the full meaning of such a short but very important answer. What is this 'path'? Could 'pa~n~naaya' be in some other case besides the instrumental? Could the syntactical relation of the three terms be something quite different? I think it's very easy to misinterpret what Dhammapaala is actually saying. I found his interpretation of 'iti' in §4 and §5 as 'aadi' (etc., and so on) quite interesting and new to me. Best wishes, Jim 24137 From: norakat147 Date: Wed Aug 13, 2003 2:47pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Is solitude not dukkha? As well as absence of love and friendship? Hi all, Thank you Ray and all for this view on solitude (from kilesa). I was unaware of this perspective. metta, nori --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > Hi Ray, Kom, Mike, Victor & All, > > Ray: > > That is what the Blessed One said. Having said it, the One > > Well-gone further > > said this: > > > > "All-conquering, > > all-knowing, intelligent; > > with regard to all things, > > unadhering; > > all-abandoning, > > released in the ending of craving: > > him I call > > a man who lives > > alone." > > > > Kom: > >This is an excellent point on the meaning of solitude (viveka). Vivekha > ultimately means solitude from kilesa, not just living by oneself, or > living in tranquil meditation all the time. Monks (as well as the > laypersons) can be said to be living alone (appropriate to their level of > panna) even > >without living by themselves. > ***** > S: Thank you both for your helpful contributions to the thread and this > good summary. I'll add further detail on viveka (which I posted before) at > the end of this post as I think it's useful. > > I'm also reminded of a fine verse Mike posted a week or so ago (to Icaro): > > Mike: > > Blissful is passionlessness in the world, > > The overcoming of sensual desires; > > But the abolition of the conceit I am -- > > That is truly the supreme bliss. > > > > Udana II, 1 > > Here is Masefield's less lyrical but more detailed translation: > > "Separation is bliss for the one who is satisfied, whose Dhamma has been > heard, who beholds. Harmlessness is bliss, that control with respect to > living beings in this world. Freedom from lust where this world is > concerned is bliss, that transcendence of sense-desires. The driving out > of the `I am' conceit - this is indeed the highest bliss." > > This was uttered by the Buddha soon after his seven day experiencing of > the `bliss of liberation' (vimuttisukhapa.tisa.mvedi) to the brahmin > youth. > > Notes from the Comy: > ***** > "Separation is bliss (sukho viveko)"; substrate spearation, reckoned as > nibbana, is bliss. "For the one who is satisfied (tu.t.thassa)": for the > one who is satisfied by way of contentedness associated with the knowledge > associated with the four paths....... > > "The driving out of the `I am' conceit (asmimaanassa yo vinaya)": by this > means, moreover, it is arahantship that is talked about. For arahantship > is spoken of as `the driving out, by way of tranquillization, of the `I > am' conceit"; and there is known no bliss beyond this, for which reason > he said "This is indeed the highest bliss". So did he bring that teaching > to a climax by way of arahantship. > ***** > Metta, > > Sarah > ===== > > Detail on Viveka (seclusion, separation, detachment) > > 1.From Nyantiloka dictionary: > http://www.palikanon.com/english/wtb/dic3_v.htm > > * > viveka > > 'detachment', seclusion, is according to Niddesa, of 3 kinds: > > * > (1) bodily detachment (káya-viveka), i.e. abiding in solitude free from > alluring sensuous objects; > > * > (2) mental detachment (citta-viveka), i.e. the inner detachment from > sensuous things; > > * > (3) detachment from the substrata of existence (upadhi-viveka). > > In the description of the 1st absorption, > > * > the words "detached from sensuous things" (vivicc' eva kámehi) refer, > according to Vis.M. IV, to 'bodily detachment'; > > * > the words "detached from karmically unwholesome things" (vivicca > akusalehidhammehi) refer to 'mental detachment'; > > * > the words "born of detachment" (vivekaja), to the absence of the 5 > hindrances. > > -------------------------------------------------------- > * > viveka-sukha > > 'happiness of detachment', or aloofness (s. prec). > > "Whoso is addicted to society and worldly bustle, he will not partake of > the happiness of renunciation, detachment, peace and enlightenment" > (A.VII.86). > ======================================================== > 2. From Sammohavinodani, Comy to Dhammasangani, PTS, (1544): > on seclusion as in "he develops the mindfulness awakening factor which is > dependent on seclusion": > > "Vivekanissita.m ("dependent on seclusion") = viveke nissita.m. Seclusion > is secludedness; it is fivefold, namely seclusion through substitution of > opposites (tada"ngaviveka), through suppression (vikkhambhana), cutting > off (samuccheda), tranquillisation (pa.tipasaddhi) and renunciation > (nissara.na). > > "Herein, seclusion through substitution of opposites is insight; seclusion > through suppression is the eight attainments; seclusion through cutting > off is the path; seclusion through tranquillisation is fruition; > seclusion through renunciation is nibbana, which has renounced all signs. > Thus "dependent on seclusion" is dependent on this fivefold > seclusion......" > > -------------------------------------------------------- 24138 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Wed Aug 13, 2003 4:26pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Is solitude not dukkha? As well as absence of love and friendship? Hi Sarah, Thanks for the reply. As I see it, the verses quoted neither says nor means that one should physically live alone or refer to the giving up of attachment. The verses do convey to me that solitude is a better way to live. In other words, living alone is better than living with husband, wife, boyfriend, or girlfriend. Given or giving up attachment to marriage and relationship and all the entanglement that comes along with it, one lives alone. I would not ask whether we should live alone in the forest or not. I would think that whether to live alone in the forest or not is a personal decision on how one would live his or her life. And to live in the forest, I don't think one needs to have supernormal knowledge and to be an arahant. Peace, Victor 24139 From: vimala Date: Wed Aug 13, 2003 5:57pm Subject: Re: Meditation practice as taught by Sidharttha Gotama himself norakat147 writes: << While I am aware of certain methods of meditation, I was still wondering what everyone out there felt was closest to what Gotama's arahat disciples practiced. I would appreciate any links or text posts describing methods. >> Hi -- You might start at the source by reading two important Suttas: Majjhima Nikaya 10: The Satipatthana Sutta http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/majjhima/mn010b.html Majjhima Nikaya 118: The Anapanasati Sutta http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/majjhima/mn118.html Vimala Robert [not the teacher associated with this group] vimala@m... njmc@s... http://satipatthana.org -- A saying of the Buddha from http://metta.lk/ One should guard against misdeeds (caused by) speech, and one should be restrained in speech. Giving up the evil conduct in speech, one should be one good conduct in speech. Random Dhammapada Verse 232 24140 From: Date: Wed Aug 13, 2003 5:27pm Subject: useful posts Hi Sarah and Kom, Would it be possible to maintain an index in "Useful Posts" of the English Pali posts of the Visuddhimagga, something like this: Vism. XIV, 1 (23711), 2 (23805), 3 (24104), 4 (24106), 5 (24107), 6 (24108)? Larry 24141 From: RA Harris Date: Wed Aug 13, 2003 5:34pm Subject: Re: Meditation practice as taught by Sidharttha Gotama himself --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "vimala" wrote: > Vimala Robert [not the teacher associated with this group] Oops, wrong list! I'm not a teacher at all, but share a Dhamma name with a teacher on another group -- vimala@m... 24142 From: norakat147 Date: Wed Aug 13, 2003 5:50pm Subject: Ethical justification for passivity in social action & politics There exist people, however few, who take on the burden of trying to improve world social and political conditions. They create for themselves a desire for improvement; they live with an attachment to this improvement, and so take stress and suffering upon themselves. They choose to live with concern and responsibility for the welfare of the world, and so naturally they suffer as a result; this they choose to take upon themselves because they feel this is what is right and good. It is also the case that there are bhikkus and bhikkunis, and lay practitioners, whether living in monasteries or in the forests and cities. In the morning, they do their alms rounds, and they eat it, they do their chores, read suttas, and for a good part of the day, they sit, absorbed in Jhana - in the tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands, in the millions (?); they live aloof from worldly affairs, unconcerned, detached. They do not stress about them. They do not take part in them. Where is the moral justification for this? Are we not to work as a community? Concerned and taking upon attachment (thus stress) for its condition?; to make things work; Pitching in as a society? Farmers work hard all day to produce food. People (however few) work to try and make things work in politics and government; People work hard and stress to create and sustain civil structures and services. While bhikkus and bhikkunis collect this food during alms rounds free of charge, free of work, which people have worked so hard, and have stressed to produce; they eat it and sit, absorbed in Jhana, free from stress, aloof from worldly affairs. What if the entire world did this? Who will make the food? Who will work? Who will stress? I am wondering what every ones thoughts are concerning this. With metta, nori 24143 From: Date: Wed Aug 13, 2003 2:37pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Ethical justification for passivity in social action & politics Hi, Nori - In a message dated 8/13/03 9:13:48 PM Eastern Daylight Time, nori_public@a... writes: > There exist people, however few, who take on the burden of trying to > improve world social and political conditions. They create for > themselves a desire for improvement; they live with an attachment to > this improvement, and so take stress and suffering upon themselves. > They choose to live with concern and responsibility for the welfare > of the world, and so naturally they suffer as a result; this they > choose to take upon themselves because they feel this is what is > right and good. > > It is also the case that there are bhikkus and bhikkunis, and lay > practitioners, whether living in monasteries or in the forests and > cities. In the morning, they do their alms rounds, and they eat it, > they do their chores, read suttas, and for a good part of the day, > they sit, absorbed in Jhana - in the tens of thousands, hundreds of > thousands, in the millions (?); they live aloof from worldly affairs, > unconcerned, detached. They do not stress about them. They do not > take part in them. > > Where is the moral justification for this? Are we not to work as a > community? Concerned and taking upon attachment (thus stress) for its > condition?; to make things work; Pitching in as a society? ------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Bhikkhus and bhikkhunis traditionally teach. There are many who teach, leading others beautifully onto the path. There are many who write scholarly works and meditation manuals. In addition, there are many in all branches of Buddhism who support the physical welfare of human beings and animals, who work for the rights of both, and who support peace. In addition, bhikkhus and bhikkhunis, Theravadins as well as Mahayanists, work towards enlightenment not only for themselves, but to be in an optimal position to assist others in their quest for freedom. I think this all stacks up quite favorably to the life of service found among laypersons. ------------------------------------------------------ > > Farmers work hard all day to produce food. People (however few) work > to try and make things work in politics and government; People work > hard and stress to create and sustain civil structures and services. > While bhikkus and bhikkunis collect this food during alms rounds free > of charge, free of work, which people have worked so hard, and have > stressed to produce; they eat it and sit, absorbed in Jhana, free > from stress, aloof from worldly affairs. ------------------------------------------------- Howard: The bhikkhus and bhikkhunis, in addition to what I have said before about them, are the primary preservers of the Dhamma, and for this I think we should be enormously grateful. ------------------------------------------------- > > What if the entire world did this? Who will make the food? Who will > work? Who will stress? > ----------------------------------------------- Howard: Do you think there is much likelihood of this? ;-) Also, what would happen if everybody adopted exactly the career, *whatever* that career might be? Suppose we all become insurance salesmen? ;-)) ----------------------------------------------- > > I am wondering what every ones thoughts are concerning this. > > > With metta, > nori > > =========================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 24144 From: Date: Wed Aug 13, 2003 6:57pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism. XIV 3, subco.questions!! Nina: "Questions: it seems that pa~n`naa refers here to lokuttara pa~n~naa, and here even to the Buddha¹s panna, in contrast to the state of asombodha. It also seems that citta with developing insight (of rise and fall) is reckoned as consciousness, although this is also accompanied by panna, but mundane panna. Is this so all the time we read about consciousness in these passages?" Hi Nina, Good job on translating this commentary. I wonder if the distinction A. Sujin pointed out between satipatthana and vipassana would account for the difference between "consciousness" and "understanding" in penetrating the characteristics? Would you say that "consciousness" here has the character of mundane satipatthana? Can we say "by endeavor" means by stages of insight knowledge beginning with knowledge of rise and fall? Is that "tender phase" or "mature phase"? Below I list the 7 stages of the Path of Purification and their corresponding practices, including the 11 insight knowledges, followed by a comment from the "Guide" in CMA, p. 345 ["stages" in roman numerals, "insight knowledges" in arabic numerals]: I. Purification of virtue // Practice of four kinds of purified virtue II Purification of mind // Practice of access and absorption concentration III. Purification of View // Practice of understanding characteristics,etc., of mental and material phenomena IV. Purification by overcoming doubt // Practice of discernment of conditions for mental and material phenomena V. Purification by knowledge and vision of path and not path // Practice of 1. Knowledge of comprehension, 2. Knowledge of rise and fall (tender phase). Additionally, distinguishing wrong path from right path of contemplation. VI. Purification by knowledge and vision of the way // Practice of 2. Knowledge of rise and fall (mature phase), 3. Knowledge of dssolution, 4. Knowledge of fearlessness, 5. Knowledge of danger, 6. Knowledge of disenchantment, 7. Knowledge of desire for deliverance, 8. Knowledge of reflection, 9. Knowledge of equanimity towards formations, 10. Knowledge of conformity. Purification between VI and VII // Practice of 11. Change of lineage VII. Purification by knowledge and vision // Practice of knowledge of 4 supramundane paths Guide: These seven stages of purification are to be attained in sequence, each being the support of the one that follows. The first purification corresponds to the morality aspect of the path, the second to the concentration aspect, the last five to the wisdom aspect. The first six stages are mundane, the last is the supramundane paths. Larry: Would you elaborate on what A. Sujin said regarding the difference between satipatthana and vipassana? Larry 24145 From: Date: Wed Aug 13, 2003 7:30pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Ethical justification for passivity in social action & politics Hi Nora, I have had the same questions and haven't come up with a really "whole" answer, but I would say there is a good deal of romanticizing about the reclusive life. A life in samsara is stress and taking on stress and always "for the good", no matter the circumstances. A life free from attachment is free from stress, no matter the circumstances. In the very limited experience I have had with bhikkhus and bhikkhunis, they seem to be a very hard working and earnest bunch who experience as much or more stress than ordinary people, but they deal with it in a dhammic way, ideally. Highly realized elders are usually deeply involved in maintaining their flock and have dealings of all sorts with the world. If you want to see for yourself, jump in! Larry 24146 From: Date: Wed Aug 13, 2003 9:16pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism. XIV 3, subco.questions!! Hi all, For those averse to pali here is Vism. XIV, 3 and the commentary from Dhammapala's "Paramattha-manjusa" (Pm.) as translated by Nina, without the pali: "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) XIV 3. In what sense is it understanding? It is understanding (pa~n~naa) in the sense of act of understanding (pajaanana). What is this act of understanding? It is knowing (jaanana) in a particular mode separate from the modes of perceiving (sa~njaanana) and cognizing (vijaanana). For though the state of knowing (jaanana-bhaava) is equally present in perception (sa~n~naa), in consciousness (vi~n~naa.na), and in understanding (pa~n~naa), nevertheless perception is only the mere perceiving of an object as, say, 'blue' or 'yellow'; it cannot bring about the penetration of its characteristics as impermanent, painful, and not-self. Consciousness knows the objects as blue or yellow, and it brings about the penetration of its characteristics, but it cannot bring about, by endeavouring, the manifestation of the [supramundane] path. Understanding knows the object in the way already stated, it brings about the penetration of the characteristics and it brings about, by endeavouring, the manifestation of the path. ------------------ "Paramattha manjusa" But how does consciousness (vi~n~naa.na) bring about the penetration of the characteristics? By way of the path seen by wisdom. When the consciousness is unaccompanied by understanding, insight (still) increases, because the practice has become skilled (by skilled development) by insight that has as object the characteristics, and is evolving after it has penetrated again and again the characteristics at various moments (presenting themselves); even as in the case of someone who is skilled at methodical study from books, the actual moments are not discerned by him. And the "penetration of characteristics", is stated with reference to merely making the characteristics the object, not to penetrating (the characteristics). As to the word having developed (with endeavour), this means, having cultivated by the practice of the insight realizing the arising and falling away (first stage of principal insight). The stage of being not awakened cannot bring about the manifestation of the Path. As to the words, by the way already stated, this means, by the way already stated as to consciousness, and this cognizes the object and penetrates the characteristics. But after having developed with extraordinary endeavour, all by oneself, the manifestation of the Path can be attained. 24147 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Aug 13, 2003 9:26pm Subject: Re: [dsg] duty of soldiers Dear James and Icaro, op 13-08-2003 18:20 schreef icaro franca op icarofranca@y...: > James: "I am very puzzled. How do you reconcile being > a >> sincere Buddhist >> and entering a career where you kill people (or >> threaten to kill >> them)? I: . I only follow the > precepts as an ideal to be nurtured, not as a > "Noblesse Oblig?" pious vow. Nina: Siha the general was a great laydisciple of the Buddha. A. Sujin said, so long as there are kings there also have to be armies. We are living in this world. As a soldier you have to do your duty and being a coward is akusala. Only the sotapanna has no more conditions to kill. We try to observe the precepts and do the best we can, but we cannot be perfect. For the monk killing is one of the five parajikas, that is a different matter. In Sri Lanka we discussed the matter and the question arose: do you kill because you like to kill? Or you had to do your duty? There is a difference here. It also depends on kamma in what circumstances we come. Some soldiers may never have to kill and that is fortunate. Lodewijk cannot handle a rifle, he was in military hospital for months because of a severe appendicitis. His fellow soldiers had to go to Indonesia and shoot (just before Indonesia's independence). Later he was Ambassador in Indonesia and we visited war graves, where he saw names of people he had known. In whatever situation we are, we should develop right understanding. As to Vinaya, this is valuable also for laypeople. We should not underestimate it, Icaro. It is one of the Tipitaka. It teaches many details of akusala, different degrees. Through satipatthana we learn also, like the monk, as is said in the Vinaya. All those who practise satipatthana are in a sense monks. Nina. 24148 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Aug 13, 2003 9:26pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Thank you, Nina!!! -2 Dear Kio. op 12-08-2003 21:14 schreef suzakico op suzaki@p...: > I do not think I should provide > my views in this group unless I am asked. N: Yes, do so. It is done here to make any remark, critizism, view, whatever you like. Most welcome. We welcome opposing views. No need to be asked!! Only, many people here are working and check the mail after work and this means that long mails are really hard to read or react to. It is helpful if you would divide your mails into small sections. And since people have read my "Time with A. Sujin" it is enough to just refer shortly to them. What do you think about this? You wrote: There was not such thought, just beginning to learn the theroy. Anyway, if we would think we have to do certain things in order to have more awareness, it enhances clinging to self who is doing it all. Nina. 24149 From: Sarah Date: Wed Aug 13, 2003 10:49pm Subject: Re: [dsg] useful posts Hi Larry & All, Larry: Would it be possible to maintain an index in "Useful Posts" of the English Pali posts of the Visuddhimagga, something like this: Vism. XIV, 1 (23711), 2 (23805), 3 (24104), 4 (24106), 5 (24107), 6 (24108)? ***** Sarah: Yes, we can do it like this, but as there are always long delays by Kom and myself here (we only update once every 6wks on average), I’m thinking that as we’re using these extracts and need quick reference, it might be best if a volunteer could start and update a new file every time Jon checks the English (;-)) and adds the Pali under a new file with this name and simple links like this: z-Vism X1V-Eng/Pali text 1 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/23711 2 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/23711 etc If you think this would be OK, Larry, we’ll just wait for a volunteer who keeps reasonably up-to-date to do this for us. (I tried and failed - but someone else involved would be better anyway). (We'll still put key posts by Nina, Jim or others in the U.P. section but take out these text only ones in the new file). Metta, Sarah ===== 24150 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Wed Aug 13, 2003 11:39pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Qus on sammasana-~nana (3rd stage of insight) Hi Nina, Mike, and Sarah, > -----Original Message----- > From: nina van gorkom [mailto:nilo@e...] > Sent: Saturday, August 09, 2003 12:33 PM > processes. When satipatthana is being developed, we do not know nama as it > really is. When a stage of insight arises, nama is directly > known. Then it can be directly known that seeing as nama, an element that > experiences. There has always been nama and rupa rising and falling uninterrupted, but yet there is no knowledge about them as they are. It takes being pointed out, wise consideration, that now it becomes known to us, little by little. But yet panna needs to be developed: one doesn't jump from knowing nothing about nama and rupa, to the clear distinction between the two. Even when realities appear to us now, there is no clear distinction between the two: panna is not yet quick or keen enough for this realization to happen. This is the same with all the stages of panna. Even when dhamma is rising and falling away right now, panna is not keen enough to realize this. Learning about Vipassana nana is like learning the sign post, and learning to recognize that without the first stages of tender wisdom, trying to learn/to know directly the finer characteristics of realities would be at best thinking, and at worst attachment towards results that could lead to micha-magga (wrong path), and micha-vimutti (wrong release). What nama is being learned, its characteristic is the same as what we learn from the book: that which cognizes, but the wisdom is not refined, is not keen, is not quick, is not penetrative enough to distinguish between the two. Same story as other vipassana nana, I think. If we are ever so concerned about vipassana nana, what about the characteristic of reality that can be known now? kom 24151 From: Sarah Date: Wed Aug 13, 2003 11:57pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Is solitude not dukkha? As well as absence of love and friendship? Hi Mike, --- "m. nease" wrote: > Hi Sarah, > > Thanks for the great quotes on viveka, and especially for the Masefield > translation of the Udaana quote. What was the source of the latter? ...... Thx for you appreciation too;-) (..and the arm is somewhat better this week with lots of 'hanging' exercises). 1.The Udaana, PTS, Peter Masefield, Ch 2-i "Mucalinda" 2. The Udaana Commentary, PTS (2 vols), Masefield, vol ch2-i "Mucalinda". (Highly recommended;-)) And just for you, Mike, one more (older) translation - maybe lyrical and detailed: 3. The Udaana: Verses of Uplift, PTS, F.L. Woodward, ch 2-i "Mucalinda": ***** Happy his solitude who glad at heart Hath dhamma learnt and doth the vision see! Happy is that benignity towards The world which on no creature worketh harm. Happy the freedom from all lust, th'ascent Past and beyond the needs of sense-desires. He who doth crush the great 'I am' conceit - this, even this, is happiness supreme. ***** Mike, I was about to suggest you try a better translation still. In the meantime, I just found myself jotting this down for any comments: Sarah’s rough notes: Nibbana is bliss for one content and free, When the Dhamma is apparent and known. Harmlessness and care for beings is bliss. Dispassion concerning the world is bliss, The overcoming of all sense-desires. The eradication of all conceit- This is the greatest bliss. ***** These are the key terms I looked at with the Comy notes (i don’t have the full Pali) - rather long to type the Comy in full, but glad to elaborate: sukho viveko tu.t.thassa sutadhammassa passato abyaapajja.m paa.nabhuutesu sa.mamo sukhaa viraagataa loke kaamaana.m samatikkamo asmimaanassa yo vinayo ***** Metta, Sarah ===== Thanissaro’s (?) > Blissful is passionlessness in the world, > The overcoming of sensual desires; > But the abolition of the conceit I am -- > That is truly the supreme bliss. > > Udana II, 1 Masefield’s “Separation is bliss for the one who is satisfied, whose Dhamma has been heard, who beholds. Harmlessness is bliss, that control with respect to living beings in this world. Freedom from lust where this world is concerned is bliss, that transcendence of sense-desires. The driving out of the ‘I am’ conceit - this is indeed the highest bliss.” ===================================================== 24152 From: kenhowardau Date: Thu Aug 14, 2003 0:41am Subject: Re: [dsg] two versions Hi Icaro and Sarah, > Ken, at the Sutta Nipatta, Mahavagga, Nalaka Sutta, > we find the Sage Asita inquiring the gods about all > the excitement at Lumbini Village: > > "4.´In a village called Lumbini, in the Sakyan > country´, answered the gods,´a boddhisatta has been > born! A being set for buddhahood has been born, a > superlative without comparison, a precious pearl of Thanks Icaro, so it seems people knew quite a lot about buddhas and enlightenment before Buddha Gautama discovered the Middle Way. I had the idea that, "self enlightenment" could only occur, after all knowledge of such things had died out in the world. Perhaps it could be said that all *direct* knowledge has to have died out. (I'm sure this has been explained several times on dsg: I'm being a bit slow.) Sarah wrote: > with more knowledge and reflection, more parts of the > jigsaw puzzle fit into place. > That's good enough for me. If the stories become more important than the message then we're slipping into religiosity. If we can't see how some parts of the text relate to the realities of the present moment, then those parts mightn't be what we need to hear at this stage. Kind regards, Ken H 24153 From: eaglenarius Date: Wed Aug 13, 2003 11:39pm Subject: RE: [dsg] duty of soldiers Hallo Nina, -----Original Message----- From: nina van gorkom [mailto:nilo@e...] Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2003 11:26 AM To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [dsg] duty of soldiers Nina: Siha the general was a great laydisciple of the Buddha. A. Sujin said, so long as there are kings there also have to be armies. We are living in this world. As a soldier you have to do your duty and being a coward is akusala. Only the sotapanna has no more conditions to kill. We try to observe the precepts and do the best we can, but we cannot be perfect. For the monk killing is one of the five parajikas, that is a different matter. In Sri Lanka we discussed the matter and the question arose: do you kill because you like to kill? Or you had to do your duty? There is a difference here. EAGLE : Do you think the difference is so far? Before killing, a soldier has a 'cetana' to kill, and he knows his target is alive, otherwise there will be no killing. Could the consequences of this kamma much reduced, due to the duty ? It seems analogous to a butcher which has to kill animals to obey the order of customer. Just thinking. thanks, Eaglenarius 24154 From: Sarah Date: Thu Aug 14, 2003 1:53am Subject: Re: [dsg] duty of soldiers Dear Nina, James (Icaro, Christine, Mike, Christhedis & All), --- nina van gorkom wrote: > Nina: Siha the general was a great laydisciple of the Buddha. A. Sujin > said, > so long as there are kings there also have to be armies. We are living > in > this world. ..... (I’ve been reading parts from the Comy (by Buddhaghosa) to the Parinibbana sutta - I think it was our recent free book from PTS, transl by Yang-Gyu An and really wonderful - full of useful detail. There are several other parts of relevance to discussions - such as a) the Buddha’s dwelling in phala-samapatti (fruition attainment) when sick, b) no other true ascetics or way to nibbana outside the Buddha’s teachings and c)‘Dhamma’ referring to correctness in welcome. If there’s anything anyone would like me to check, pls ask....) Now, I was reminded of James’ discussion before with Christine and others regarding the passage at the beginning of the sutta, when the brahmin Vassakara is sent by King Ajatasattu to visit the Buddha and sound him out about their plan to wage war against the Vajjis. The Buddha makes it clear that as the Vajjis are following all the conditions set out for a nation’s welfare, they cannot be beaten by attack, but only ‘through treachery or discord’. He tells Vassakara to ‘do as now seems fit’ and Vassakara returns to the King, delighted with what he has heard. There is a long and detailed section in the commentary and I’m sure everyone’s understanding was at least partly right when we discussed it before;-) I’ll just give a few notes from the comy: 1.Why did the King ask the Buddha’s advice at all? The King says: “Making war on a clan is a serious matter; one cannot strike even a single blow without consequences. But if one acts after consulting a single wise man, one is free from fault.”(nippavaado). 2. From the sutta, the Buddha asks Ananda at one point if “the Vajjis duly protect and guard the Arahats, so that those who have not come to the realm might do so, and those already come might live there in peace?” Comy: “the rightful protection, guarding and defense (dhammika.m rakkhaavara.na-gutti.m): Here protection (rakkhaa) as guarding against the arrival of the undesired is called guarding (aavara.na), as defending against the destruction of the desirable is called defense (gutti). In that context, the guarding of renouncers by surrounding them with a body of troops is called “rightful protection, guarding and defense.” The same words apply to seeing to it that people do not cut down trees in the grove of a monastery, or do not divert water from its reservoir, or do not catch fish in its lotus ponds.” 3. (The Vajjis) “are not to be overcome (akara.niiya) means “they are not to be conquered” (akattabba) or “they are not to be captured”. The meaning is that they cannot be captured by frontal attack.” “Without destroying their solidarity (a~n~natra mithu-bhedaaya) means except for destroying their solidarity. He shows by this that they can also be caught by creating internal dissension. This the brahmin minister said after drawing an inference from the words of the Blessed One.” 4. ...continuing with regard to the Buddha’s motive, discussed before.... “But does the Blessed One know the brahmin is going to draw the inference from his words? Yes, he knows. If he knows, why did he say them? Out of compassion. He presumably thought thus: “Even if I do not speak, he will go and capture them all within a few days. But if I speak, it will take three years for him to break up their harmony and capture them. Even such a short span of life is important; for while living they will each do merit as a basis for their own salvation” 5. Vassakara reported back to the King and suggested a devious plan by which he was deported, gained a position amongst the Vajjis and overtime created dissent amongst them by spreading false rumours. As a result they stopped assembling together, their defences were lowered and Vassakara was able to send a message to the King that it was time to attack. “So he entered with the gates still wide open, and only left after annihilating them all.” All the detail about the conditions for harmony and prosperity are very interesting to reflect on as well. Enough for now. Thanks for the prompt, Metta, Sarah ===== 24155 From: Sarah Date: Thu Aug 14, 2003 2:18am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Meditation practice as taught by Sidharttha Gotama himself Hi Vimala Robert, --- RA Harris wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "vimala" wrote: > > Vimala Robert [not the teacher associated with this group] > > Oops, wrong list! I'm not a teacher at all, but share a Dhamma name > with a teacher on another group -- .... Some of us get lists and names mixed up, others get groups mixed up;-) In any case, I'm glad to welcome another Robert here as well.... you'll find you're in company with this part of your name here as well... ..And we're all teachers, students, friends and so on here.... Look forward to hearing any more of your quotes, reflections or detail about where you live or your background and interest in the Dhamma. Metta, Sarah ====== 24156 From: Sarah Date: Thu Aug 14, 2003 2:37am Subject: Re: [dsg] Wishing our lives away Hi Chris, --- christine_forsyth wrote: Qu> .... Can most of expect to > live another 1000 weeks? A> ---The trouble is that you think you have time Qu> How best to spend the time left? I'd really be interested to hear what you think first;-) Meanwhile I’ll leave you with some lyrics to sing to yourself - just this once;-) Metta, Sarah ====== http://www.genesis-music.com/word2.htm YESTERDAY, TODAY, TOMORROW I met a man back in the future He was high then he was low. You know his one consideration Should he come or should he go I met a girl she wants to give me The gift of living just for today Ignore the past ignore the future You're only going to wish your life away - say Why can't today be tomorrow Why must there be yesterday Why can't today be tomorrow Oh tell me why please tell me why Are you wishing your life away? You know that life is no rehearsal You're never going to get it right It's inconsistent and it's imperfect It's going to give you sleepless nights And then you find you wake up nervous For every reason under the sun Life is full of indecision It's the same for everyone say Why can't today be tomorrow Why must there be yesterday - so tell me Why can't today be tomorrow Tell me why please tell me why Are you wishing your life away? Why can't today be tomorrow Why must there be yesterday so tell me Why can't today be tomorrow oh tell me Why can't today be tomorrow Are you wishing your life away Why can't today be tomorrow? (M. Rutherford/B.A. Robertson) © 1990 Michael Rutherford Ltd/R & B A Music Ltd/Hit & Run Music (Publishing) Ltd 24157 From: Sarah Date: Thu Aug 14, 2003 2:57am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Meditation practice as taught by Sidharttha Gotama himself Hi Vimala Robert, Ooops --- Sarah wrote: > Look forward to hearing any more of your quotes, reflections or detail > about where you live or your background and interest in the Dhamma. .... I just remembered to look at your website which I hadn’t seen before: http://satipatthana.org/njmc.html Thanks - this answers where you live and much more. In the early days of DSG we had another NY or NJ member with a satippatthana.org group and website. I think the name was Sotujanna. I wonder if you’re connected or know ‘her’ (I think!). Robert K would remember more. Metta, Sarah ==== 24158 From: icaro franca Date: Thu Aug 14, 2003 4:35am Subject: Re: [dsg] duty of soldiers Dear Nina: Nina: "We try to > observe the precepts and do the best we can, but we > cannot be perfect." -------------------------------------------------- That´s my opinion too, Nina. The buddhist Monk´s life - mainly at the Theravada - is a very serious attainment: not to be take out easily as a game or for fun...despite the fact that, at the Cunda Sutta ( Sutta Nipata, Uraggavagga, V, Buddha says to Cunda the Smith that "7.One who disguises himself by wearing the robes of the well-conducted ones, travels for gain, disgraces families, is impudent, deceitful, unrestrained, a gossip and waffler (don´t grab my hand,Michael !!!)pretending to be a real monk - he is one who defiles the path". Curiously, Buddha consider this kind of wrongdoer Monk as a real Bhikku - the fourth type (Cunda Sutta, 2). ---------------------------------------------------- Nina: "As to Vinaya, this is valuable also for laypeople. > We should not > underestimate it, Icaro. It is one of the Tipitaka. > It teaches many details > of akusala, different degrees. Through satipatthana > we learn also, like the > monk, as is > said in the Vinaya. All > those who practise satipatthana are in a sense > monks." --------------------------------------------------- Agreed. I´ve read only a few chapters of the Vinaya - I am still downloading all the Tipitaka files at the www.tipitaka.org. It´s the Myanmar post-Council version and I do repute it as the best one! Satipatthana isn´t only a matter of Buddhist Mental Culture... and at a certain level of discourse, only bhikkus and bhikkunis can performe it at a right way. You handle we!! > Nina. ===== Seize the time, there´s only minutes left to zero Just got a little taste, I gotta get some more, Just me and you 24159 From: icaro franca Date: Thu Aug 14, 2003 4:40am Subject: Re: [dsg] duty of soldiers Dear Nina: The last line of the last paragraph of the preceeding reply: ---------------------------------------------------- Icaro: "Satipatthana isn´t only a matter of Buddhist > Mental Culture... and at a certain level of > discourse, > only bhikkus and bhikkunis can performe it at a > right > way. You handle well the rifle, Nina! Bullseye! ------------------------------------------------- And the final salutation: Metta, Ícaro ===== Seize the time, there´s only minutes left to zero Just got a little taste, I gotta get some more, Just me and you 24160 From: m. nease Date: Thu Aug 14, 2003 5:26am Subject: Re: [dsg] duty of soldiers Friends, I take your point, E. (is 'Eaglenarius really your name?)--more to the point, I think: Is it more useful to distinguish kusala from akusala in the conduct of another being (a concept) or in this moment (a reality)? A valuable distinction, I think. mike ----- Original Message ----- From: eaglenarius To: Sent: Wednesday, August 13, 2003 11:39 PM Subject: RE: [dsg] duty of soldiers > Hallo Nina, > > -----Original Message----- > From: nina van gorkom [mailto:nilo@e...] > Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2003 11:26 AM > To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com > Subject: Re: [dsg] duty of soldiers > > > Nina: Siha the general was a great laydisciple of the Buddha. A. Sujin said, > so long as there are kings there also have to be armies. We are living in > this world. As a soldier you have to do your duty and being a coward is > akusala. Only the sotapanna has no more conditions to kill. We try to > observe the precepts and do the best we can, but we cannot be perfect. > For the monk killing is one of the five parajikas, that is a different > matter. > In Sri Lanka we discussed the matter and the question arose: do you kill > because you like to kill? Or you had to do your duty? There is a difference > here. > > EAGLE : Do you think the difference is so far? > Before killing, a soldier has a 'cetana' to kill, and he knows his target is > alive, otherwise there will be no killing. Could the consequences of this > kamma much reduced, due to the duty ? It seems analogous to a butcher which > has to kill animals to obey the order of customer. > Just thinking. > > > thanks, > Eaglenarius 24161 From: m. nease Date: Thu Aug 14, 2003 5:32am Subject: Re: [dsg] duty of soldiers Hi Icaro, ----- Original Message ----- From: icaro franca To: Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2003 4:35 AM Subject: Re: [dsg] duty of soldiers > The buddhist Monk´s life - mainly at the Theravada - > is a very serious attainment: not to be take out > easily as a game or for fun... Easy or difficult doesn't matter much, I think. Depends on your idea of fun, though: If by renouncing a lesser happiness one may realize a greater happiness, let the wise one renounce the lesser, having regard for the greater. Dhammapada 290 mike 24162 From: m. nease Date: Thu Aug 14, 2003 5:39am Subject: Re: [dsg] duty of soldiers Hello Again, ----- Original Message ----- From: icaro franca To: Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2003 4:40 AM Subject: Re: [dsg] duty of soldiers > Dear Nina: > The last line of the last paragraph of the preceeding > reply: > ---------------------------------------------------- > Icaro: "Satipatthana isn´t only a matter of > Buddhist > > Mental Culture... and at a certain level of > > discourse, > > only bhikkus and bhikkunis can performe it at a > > right > > way. You handle well the rifle, Nina! > Bullseye! The conclusion (tentative) that I've come to is that liberation by way of jhaana requires the extraordinary purity of ordained life (polished like a conch-shell and so on)--and that with good company (of preceptor especially). To find these conditions today? Good luck. mike 24163 From: m. nease Date: Thu Aug 14, 2003 5:44am Subject: Re: [dsg] Qus on sammasana-~nana (3rd stage of insight) Hi Kom, ----- Original Message ----- From: Kom Tukovinit To: Sent: Wednesday, August 13, 2003 11:39 PM Subject: RE: [dsg] Qus on sammasana-~nana (3rd stage of insight) > If we are ever so concerned about vipassana nana, what about the > characteristic of reality that can be known now? That's the point, isn't it. Hence the importance of sati-sampaja~n~na, hence the importance of hearing and recollecting the Dhamma in great detail. mike 24164 From: m. nease Date: Thu Aug 14, 2003 5:55am Subject: Re: [dsg] Ethical justification for passivity in social action & politics Hi Nori, ----- Original Message ----- From: norakat147 To: Sent: Wednesday, August 13, 2003 5:50 PM Subject: [dsg] Ethical justification for passivity in social action & politics > Farmers work hard all day to produce food. People (however few) work > to try and make things work in politics and government; People work > hard and stress to create and sustain civil structures and services. > While bhikkus and bhikkunis collect this food during alms rounds free > of charge, free of work, which people have worked so hard, and have > stressed to produce; they eat it and sit, absorbed in Jhana, free > from stress, aloof from worldly affairs. > > What if the entire world did this? Who will make the food? Who will > work? Who will stress? Not to worry, the entire world will never do this. This has never been a problem--ignorance, aversion and desire make the world go around. Those who attack the troubles of the world on a social or political level attack the branches and leaves but never the roots--the Buddhadhamma is unique in attacking the roots, whether by way of ordination and jhaana or simply by way of di.t.thujukamma (correction of one's views). For ordained or lay people, there is no more (or even equally) honorable use of food, shelter, clothing and/or medicine, in my opinion. mike p.s. Monastic life is not so easy as you may think, for most monastics. 24165 From: Date: Thu Aug 14, 2003 2:01am Subject: Re: [dsg] two versions Hi, Icaro (and Ken, and Sarah, and all) - In a message dated 8/13/03 4:58:47 AM Eastern Daylight Time, icarofranca@y... writes: > Ken, at the Sutta Nipatta, Mahavagga, Nalaka Sutta, > we find the Sage Asita inquiring the gods about all > the excitement at Lumbini Village: > > "4.´In a village called Lumbini, in the Sakyan > country´, answered the gods,´a boddhisatta has been > born! A being set for buddhahood has been born, a > superlative without comparison, a precious pearl of > the health and goodness of the human world. That´s > what they´re so glad, so excited, so pleased." > ======================== Something struck me as familiar about this. A larger part of the Nalaka Sutta includes the following: ******************************** "Why is the deva community so wildly elated? Why are they holding up banners & waving them around? Even after the war with the Asuras -- when victory was the devas', the Asuras defeated -- even then there was no excitement like this. Seeing what marvel are the devas so joyful? They shout, they sing, play music, clap their hands, dance. So I ask you, who live on Mount Meru's summit. Please dispel my doubt quickly, dear sirs." [Then comes the gods' reply] "The Bodhisatta, the foremost jewel, unequaled, has been born for welfare & ease in the human world, in a town in the Sakyan countryside, Lumbini. ********************************* The final part of this has also been elsewhere translated as: ********************************* > The Bodhisatta, the foremost jewel, > unequaled, > has been born for welfare & ease > in the human world, > in a town in the Sakyan countryside, > Lumbini. > *********************************** This seemed so familiar to me. I then searched for and found the following, which made me wonder whether there was a borrowing, or whether we are dealing with archetypal mythos here: ************************************** Isaiah 9:6 (KJV) - For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. > " And there were shepherds living out in the fields nearby, keeping watch > over their flocks at night. An angel of the Lord appeared to them, and the > glory of the Lord shone around them, and they were terrified. But the angel said > to them, "Do not be afraid. I bring you good news of great joy that will be > for all the people. Today in the town of David a Savior has been born to you; > he is Christ the Lord. This will be a sign to you: You will find a baby > wrapped in cloths and lying in a manger." Suddenly a great company of the > heavenly host appeared with the angel, praising God and saying, "Glory to God in the > highest, and on earth peace to men on whom his favor rests." ************************************ BTW, I'm not and have never been a Christian. My question is merely one of whether this is a matter of borrowing, of similar myth, or of mere coincidence. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 24166 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Thu Aug 14, 2003 6:20am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism. XIV 3-6 Larry --- LBIDD@w... wrote: > Hi Jon, > > You wrote, "The 3 kinds of dhamma experience/perceive the object at > increasingly deeper levels. Thus although sanna's > experience/perception > of the object is not incorrect, it is not complete either." > > Could you expand on this a little. There are many kinds of > consciousness. Eye consciousness, for example, would seem to be > more > basic than sanna. How can consciousness penetrate the general > characteristics without understanding? Isn't understanding both a > cetasika (panna) and a consciousness (amoha)? How does > understanding > lead to the manifestation of the path while consciousness doesn't? > Is > there a difference between the penetration of the characteristics > by consciousness and the penetration by panna? I'm happy to try (to expand a little). The comment about consciousness penetrating the characteristics of an object has to be understood in the light of the commentary that Nina and Jim are discussing. There it explains that, in effect, this is a reference to *the consciousness that is accompanied by panna*. So without panna, there is no penetrating of characteristics by citta. This would exclude eye-consciousness, since a five-sense door moment of consciousness cannot be accompanied by panna. In general terms, citta/consciousness is said to be the chief in experiencing the object, that is to say, *merely* experiencing the object. But there is a lot more to be said or known about a citta than that, since there are 4 basic classes of citta, performing different 14 functions, as classified in the Abhidhamma, and number and effect of the accompanying cetasikas varies greatly. A couple of points about sanna and panna. They are both cetasikas (mental factors), that is to say, they accompany a citta and they experience the same object as the citta they accompany. So whether we talk about panna or amoha or vipassana, in absolute terms what is being referred to is the mental factor that is panna. > You said that sanna's experience of the object is not incorrect but > because both consciousness and understanding penetrate the general > characteristics I would say they see the object "as it is" while > sanna > does not. In a previous email I called sanna's knowledge erroneous. > Perhaps the error would be in taking sanna's knowledge as complete. > We can discuss sanna's relationship to concept when we get to the > exposition of sanna in the text, if you like. The illustration > given > there strongly suggests error, as I remember it. Sanna marks the object of the citta that it accompanies; just that (the simile given is, like the chalk mark put by a lumberjack on a log of felled timber). Conventional remembrance/recollection/identification is actually a whole series of mind-moments that 'think about' the object that has been marked by sanna. This thinking can result in mistaken recollection, but sanna itself cannot 'make an error', as I understand it. I don't know if this helps. Jon 24167 From: icaro franca Date: Thu Aug 14, 2003 7:17am Subject: Re: [dsg] duty of soldiers Dear Mike: Mike: "Easy or difficult doesn't matter much, I think. > Depends on your idea of > fun, though: > > If by renouncing a lesser happiness one may realize > a greater happiness, > let the wise one renounce the lesser, having regard > for the greater. > > Dhammapada 290". --------------------------------------------------- However is a very definite decision to be take, Mike. Just consider that wear the yellow robe is a hard task to be performed, despite your moral courage and decision. You see, typing at a keyboard my fingers can slip and... there is a typo. At a more serious scene, your mind as a bhikku must to be kept very well tighted,or some errors may propagate dramatically. Sorry Mike, but I don´t see it as a matter of fun, or renunciation of fun. Anyway, if you decide to do it...good luck !!! Metta, Ícaro ===== Seize the time, there´s only minutes left to zero Just got a little taste, I gotta get some more, Just me and you 24168 From: icaro franca Date: Thu Aug 14, 2003 7:37am Subject: Re: [dsg] duty of soldiers Dear Mike: ------------------------------------------------- > Hello Again, --------------------------------------------------- Hello... Hellooow... Helloooowwww... Hello !!! ----------------------------------------------- Mike: " The conclusion (tentative) that I've come to is that > liberation by way of > jhaana requires the extraordinary purity of ordained > life (polished like a > conch-shell and so on)--and that with good company > (of preceptor > especially). To find these conditions today? Good > luck. ------------------------------------------------ Did you see ? Carry on decisions can be very hard sometimes. If you keep yourself thinking that one must have got this or that requisites: good company, preceptors, good conditions and so on, no definite step will be assumed by you at any path. Siddartha Gautama left his Great House towards an unbelievable mystery: the outer world, to find something totally strange and dubious for himself: the the Existence of all beings´final answer. Personally, I take on this matters at other hand: sometimes I try to keep my thoughts focuses on the end line, take a deep breath...and CHARGE !!! The End or Bust !!!... sometimes I stop myself , sit down with legs folded , take again a deep breath and I keep trying to cultivate my mind. Keep Boostin´!!! Metta, Ícaro ===== Seize the time, there´s only minutes left to zero Just got a little taste, I gotta get some more, Just me and you 24169 From: icaro franca Date: Thu Aug 14, 2003 7:59am Subject: Re: [dsg] two versions Dear Howard: Howard: "BTW, I'm not and have never been a Christian. > My question is merely > one of whether this is a matter of borrowing, of > similar myth, or of mere > coincidence." ----------------------------------------------------- Good question, Howard! Contacts between hebrews and hindustanis have been around from the Upanishads´age: Solomon The King was mentioned at these scriptures as Yama, and so on. Many jainist texts as Samaysaar, Niyamasaar and others by Kundkund and Bhadrabahu , for example, have got many ressemblances with some Theravada texts. Here in Brazil people usually says " Who don´t communicate will be at fate" ( a loose traduction of "Quem não se comunica se trumbica")... and as a matter of fact, Solomon, Isaiah and other biblical profets came after the buddhistic texts. Mutual borrowing! Metta, Ícaro ===== Seize the time, there´s only minutes left to zero Just got a little taste, I gotta get some more, Just me and you 24170 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Aug 14, 2003 11:17am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism. XIV 3, subco.questions!! Dear Jim, op 13-08-2003 20:40 schreef Jim Anderson op jimanderson_on@y...: > << But how does consciousness (vi~n~naa.na) bring about the > penetration of the characteristics? >> pa~n~naaya dassitamaggena. > By way of the path seen by wisdom.>> . The usual translation for > 'dassita' (a causative p.p.) is 'shown'. N: right, di.t.tha would be: seen. J:So 'by way of the path shown > by wisdom' is better, I think. N: pa~n~naaya: with regard to p~n~naa? Another option: By the way that is shown with reference to pa~n~naa. Magga: we do not always have to think of lokuttara magga. Nina. 24171 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Aug 14, 2003 11:17am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism. XIV 3, satipat. and vip. Dear Larry, op 14-08-2003 03:57 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > Would you elaborate on what A. Sujin said regarding the > difference between satipatthana and vipassana? N: The are the same, but insight knowledge goes up to the stages which are lokuttara. They both amount to the development of right understanding of nama and rupa. Satipatthana is mundane as we have seen in the Co. We can also say, the development of the Path amounts also to the development of satipatthana and vipassana. It is also the development of right understanding of nama and rupa. But when we speak of the eightfold Path we think of the different factors. Nina. 24172 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Aug 14, 2003 11:17am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism. XIV 3, subco. no conclusion Dear Larry, op 14-08-2003 06:16 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > By way of the path seen by wisdom. N: But here we have to think of Jim's remark: not seen, but shown. And the whole sentence has to be turned around. No conclusion yet about this sentence. Nina. 24173 From: icaro franca Date: Thu Aug 14, 2003 11:33am Subject: Re: [dsg] two versions correction!!!! ----------------------------------------------- > Here in Brazil people usually says " Who don´t > communicate will be at fate" ( a loose traduction of > "Quem não se comunica se trumbica")... and as a > matter > of fact, Solomon, Isaiah and other biblical profets > came before the buddhistic texts. Mutual borrowing! ------------------------------------------------- Gosh...there must be the cold I got !!! Metta, Ícaro ===== Seize the time, there´s only minutes left to zero Just got a little taste, I gotta get some more, Just me and you 24174 From: elias broman Date: Thu Aug 14, 2003 8:42am Subject: Re: [dsg] duty of soldiers if it wasn't fun, happiniess, peace, freedom, love, sharing, compassion, joyful, why would anyone want to choose to be a monk? Elias >From: icaro franca >Reply-To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com >To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com >Subject: Re: [dsg] duty of soldiers >Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 07:17:37 -0700 (PDT) > >Dear Mike: >Mike: "Easy or difficult doesn't matter much, I think. > > > Depends on your idea of > > fun, though: > > > > If by renouncing a lesser happiness one may realize > > a greater happiness, > > let the wise one renounce the lesser, having regard > > for the greater. > > > > Dhammapada 290". > >--------------------------------------------------- > > However is a very definite decision to be take, >Mike. Just consider that wear the yellow robe is a >hard task to be performed, despite your moral courage >and decision. You see, typing at a keyboard my fingers >can slip and... there is a typo. At a more serious >scene, your mind as a bhikku must to be kept very well >tighted,or some errors may propagate dramatically. >Sorry Mike, but I don´t see it as a matter of fun, or >renunciation of fun. > > Anyway, if you decide to do it...good luck !!! > > Metta, Ícaro > 24175 From: Date: Thu Aug 14, 2003 4:54pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism. XIV 3, subco. no conclusion Hi Nina, In the light of other remarks in the Pm. commentary I think the one doing the seeing or showing is the Buddha. Following the path with a faith that is somewhat blind we practice satipatthana and insight is developed, a little, even though we don't see realities directly. This is at the level of "consciousness" (as a figure of speech). The endeavour that leads to manifestation of the path doesn't begin until the insight knowledge of rise and fall. This is the "understanding" level. Correct? Larry ------------------- Nina: Dear Larry, op 14-08-2003 06:16 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: By way of the path seen by wisdom. N: But here we have to think of Jim's remark: not seen, but shown. And the whole sentence has to be turned around. No conclusion yet about this sentence. Nina. 24176 From: Date: Thu Aug 14, 2003 5:23pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism. XIV 3-6 Hi Jon, Thanks for your reply. Could you explain why panna can't arise in a 5-door process? Or did you mean panna can't arise with a 5-door consciousness? If so, why? In the discussion of sammasana nana A. Sujin said something about panna arising through the mind-door, but I didn't quite understand what she was saying. I think perception, consciousness, and understanding as "modes of knowing" is mostly a figure of speech used to illustrate different levels of knowing that manifest in complex structures characterized, loosely, by these three khandhas. Unless the reference is specifically to citta process, I think a complex structure characterized by a khandha is what is indicated in the Visuddhimagga and certainly in sutta when a khandha is mentioned. Agreed? Larry ------------------- Jon: "...So without panna, there is no penetrating of characteristics by citta. This would exclude eye-consciousness, since a five-sense door moment of consciousness cannot be accompanied by panna..." 24177 From: Date: Thu Aug 14, 2003 5:44pm Subject: no juice Howard, Are you in the dark? Did you have to walk 20 miles to get home? Larry 24178 From: Date: Thu Aug 14, 2003 5:46pm Subject: hot Nina, I read that 3000 people died in France due to the heat wave. How is it where you are? Be careful. Larry 24179 From: kenhowardau Date: Thu Aug 14, 2003 5:47pm Subject: Re: Meditation practice as taught by Sidharttha Gotama himself Hi Nori (and Vimala Robert), There is a form of meditation that is popular in modern society, simply as a kind of therapy. People recommend you 'try meditation,' in the same way you might try listening to music, going for walks or taking up a hobby. This type of meditation is widely assumed to be a part of Buddhist practice even though there is no mention of it in the texts. In the texts, some (some!) people are said to be suited to jhana meditation: this is a full-time occupation and it bears no resemblance to any kind of relaxation therapy. There are a certain lines in the Satipatthana Sutta which are seized upon by exponents of popular meditation. But these lines must be read in the context of the rest of the Tipitaka. They do not have the conventional meaning, "when you are walking, know that you are walking; when you are washing the dishes, know that you are washing the dishes." They have the profound meaning that nama and rupa can be known with Right Understanding (that is, satipatthana can occur), at any time in daily life. Courses in popular meditation, as conducted by S N Goenka, will not prevent satipatthana from ocurring but they can give rise to wrong understanding. They can give the impression that satipathana can only arise at times of ritualistic practice: they can foster the idea of a self who can control the rise and fall of dhammas: they can foster the idea of a self who can direct mindfulness towards a chosen object. After this was brought to my attention, I decided that the totally misleading idea of control was inseparable from all of [then] my meditation practices. Kind regards, Ken H --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "vimala" wrote: > norakat147 writes: > << While I am aware of certain methods of meditation, I was still > wondering what everyone out there felt was closest to what Gotama's > arahat disciples practiced. > I would appreciate any links or text posts describing methods. >> > > Hi -- > > You might start at the source by reading two important Suttas: > > Majjhima Nikaya 10: The Satipatthana Sutta > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/majjhima/mn010b.html > > Majjhima Nikaya 118: The Anapanasati Sutta > 24180 From: eaglenarius Date: Thu Aug 14, 2003 6:58pm Subject: RE: [dsg] duty of soldiers Hi (Mike, Nina, Ikaro and All), Eaglenarius Timotius is my real name, though I cannot fly and I don't have wings. I know that we cannot be perfect in this world. There is always two opposite points of view in every action. However in term of Buddhism, I'm very sure that killing is not a kusala kamma, though in the name of country duty or nationality. In every killing, there will be always bad consequences, whether he is a soldier or a civilians. I just feel guilty not to stop a friend from doing akusala kamma, it will be more fruitful to advise than support the future akusala kamma. Please, don't misunderstand. Sincere bow, Eaglenarius -----Original Message----- From: m. nease [mailto:mlnease@z...] Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2003 7:27 PM To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [dsg] duty of soldiers Friends, I take your point, E. (is 'Eaglenarius really your name?)--more to the point, I think: Is it more useful to distinguish kusala from akusala in the conduct of another being (a concept) or in this moment (a reality)? A valuable distinction, I think. mike ----- Original Message ----- From: eaglenarius To: Sent: Wednesday, August 13, 2003 11:39 PM Subject: RE: [dsg] duty of soldiers > Hallo Nina, > > -----Original Message----- > From: nina van gorkom [mailto:nilo@e...] > Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2003 11:26 AM > To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com > Subject: Re: [dsg] duty of soldiers > > > Nina: Siha the general was a great laydisciple of the Buddha. A. Sujin said, > so long as there are kings there also have to be armies. We are living in > this world. As a soldier you have to do your duty and being a coward is > akusala. Only the sotapanna has no more conditions to kill. We try to > observe the precepts and do the best we can, but we cannot be perfect. > For the monk killing is one of the five parajikas, that is a different > matter. > In Sri Lanka we discussed the matter and the question arose: do you kill > because you like to kill? Or you had to do your duty? There is a difference > here. > > EAGLE : Do you think the difference is so far? > Before killing, a soldier has a 'cetana' to kill, and he knows his target is > alive, otherwise there will be no killing. Could the consequences of this > kamma much reduced, due to the duty ? It seems analogous to a butcher which > has to kill animals to obey the order of customer. > Just thinking. > > > thanks, > Eaglenarius 24181 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Thu Aug 14, 2003 7:40pm Subject: Re: [dsg] duty of soldiers Hi Nina, James, Ícaro, and all, First of all, killing is unwholesome action (akusala kamma). It is unwholesome whether it is committed out of duty or not. Nina, are you saying that it is ok for one to kill because he or she is not perfect, or not a stream-enterer (sotapanna), or kills out of duty? Or are you saying that killing is unwholesome and refraining from killing is wholesome? Peace, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > Dear James and Icaro, > op 13-08-2003 18:20 schreef icaro franca op icarofranca@y...: [snip] > Nina: Siha the general was a great laydisciple of the Buddha. A. Sujin said, > so long as there are kings there also have to be armies. We are living in > this world. As a soldier you have to do your duty and being a coward is > akusala. Only the sotapanna has no more conditions to kill. We try to > observe the precepts and do the best we can, but we cannot be perfect. > For the monk killing is one of the five parajikas, that is a different > matter. > In Sri Lanka we discussed the matter and the question arose: do you kill > because you like to kill? Or you had to do your duty? There is a difference > here. [snip] > As to Vinaya, this is valuable also for laypeople. We should not > underestimate it, Icaro. It is one of the Tipitaka. It teaches many details > of akusala, different degrees. Through satipatthana we learn also, like the > monk, as is said in the Vinaya. All > those who practise satipatthana are in a sense monks. > Nina. 24182 From: mollyo Date: Thu Aug 14, 2003 9:42pm Subject: Vipassana Research Institute Hi all, Here is a link to a helpful, intelligent web site that has tons of interesting info for people interested in Vipassana Meditation, Tipitika, Pali... it's well done, solid, thorough and established. http://www.vri.dhamma.org/ Metta, Molly -- A saying of the Buddha from http://metta.lk/ The mind is hard to check. It is swift and wanders at will. To control it is good. A controlled mind is conducive to happiness. Random Dhammapada Verse 35 24183 From: Sarah Date: Thu Aug 14, 2003 9:30pm Subject: Yahoo update - no change for DSG;-) Dear Friends, Yahoo asked us to show this note to all members. I don’t think there is anything that will affect anyone on DSG because we haven’t allowed attachments for a very long time, and you already need to be a member to access photos and files, so there’s no change for us. (Some members have difficulty accessing these if they haven’t become a yahoo groups member. Try one of the links below or contact Jon or Kom OFF-LIST if you need help with this.) Metta, Sarah ***** From yahoo: *** PLEASE DO NOT REPLY TO THIS EMAIL *** Dear Yahoo! Groups Moderator, Important update: The new date for service changes is August 21, 2003. You are receiving this notice because you are a moderator of one or more groups. Previously, we emailed you about upcoming service changes to Yahoo! Groups. To give you more time to manage your files, we have pushed back the date of these changes to August 21, 2003. To continue offering you a high quality, free service, Yahoo! Groups is making the following changes: Message Attachments: Email attachments will no longer be archived in the Messages area, although Yahoo! Groups will continue to deliver attachments sent by email. On August 21st, all attachments in the Messages area will be removed, and Yahoo! will be unable to retrieve the data. Please note: All of your group messages will remain. Only the attachments will be deleted. Before August 21st, if you want to preserve them, you must move your old message attachments. To do so, go to the Messages area and click on "Expand Messages." This lets you view many attachments on one page so you can download them easily. Then you can upload them to the Files and Photos areas in your groups. The Files and Photos features will allow you to better organize your email attachments. Files and Photos: You will now need a web membership to access a group's Files and Photos areas. To make sure you have web memberships to all of your groups, please visit this page: http://groups.yahoo.com/memwiz Add Members: Although there is no membership limit for your group, we are changing the Add Members feature so you can add only 10 new members each day. You can continue to use the Invite Members feature to invite as many people to your group as you wish. For more details on the service changes described above, please visit our help section http://help.yahoo.com/groups/groups-56.html. We hope you will pass this notice along to your group's members so they are aware of the changes. Thank you for your support as we continue to improve Yahoo! Groups. Sincerely, The Yahoo! Groups Team This is a service email related to your use of Yahoo! Groups. Please do not reply to this email. For Help or to read the FAQ, please visit http://help.yahoo.com/groups/groups-56.html. To learn more about Yahoo!'s use of personal information please read our Privacy Policy: http://privacy.yahoo.com/privacy/us/groups/index.html. 24184 From: elias broman Date: Thu Aug 14, 2003 9:53pm Subject: RE: [dsg] duty of soldiers as said, one should train oneself, and not allow anyone to hurt themself or others. as you mentioned, of perfectness. there's no such thing. If you see perfectness and unperfectness, you have choosen opinions, percetions. there's anicca, the mind itself, creates the untrue with opinions and thoughs. therefore thinking, this is that, this is so, one falls in the untrue. - i'm not here to have fun, (or to seek suffering) i'm here to find truth. thinking this way, one reflects on the truth, living for it, and seeking for it. Elias >From: "eaglenarius" >Reply-To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com >To: >Subject: RE: [dsg] duty of soldiers >Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 08:58:01 +0700 > >Hi (Mike, Nina, Ikaro and All), > >Eaglenarius Timotius is my real name, though I cannot fly and I don't have >wings. > 24185 From: elias broman Date: Thu Aug 14, 2003 10:02pm Subject: Re: [dsg] duty of soldiers i might to try to answer, thought my name isn't nina. is that ok? One can ask a a doctor, who commit suicides for those who wishes it. do you understand? hopefully. One can ask the doctor, "do you have desire to kill a being". ofcurse he does, or else he wouldn't kill the being. this way, one sees that mental danger* had arised in the mind of his. * why is it called mental danger, because such mental thoughts leads to danger. as for killing without desire, is not possible, or else one wouldn't want to kill. so if you see a mosquito, and notice desire to kill it, there you go, danger danger. Elias >From: "yu_zhonghao" >Reply-To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com >To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com >Subject: Re: [dsg] duty of soldiers >Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 02:40:37 -0000 > >Hi Nina, James, Ícaro, and all, > >First of all, killing is unwholesome action (akusala kamma). It is >unwholesome whether it is committed out of duty or not. > >Nina, are you saying that it is ok for one to kill because he or she >is not perfect, or not a stream-enterer (sotapanna), or kills out of >duty? Or are you saying that killing is unwholesome and refraining >from killing is wholesome? > >Peace, >Victor > >--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom >wrote: > > Dear James and Icaro, > > op 13-08-2003 18:20 schreef icaro franca op icarofranca@y...: >[snip] > > Nina: Siha the general was a great laydisciple of the Buddha. A. >Sujin said, > > so long as there are kings there also have to be armies. We are >living in > > this world. As a soldier you have to do your duty and being a >coward is > > akusala. Only the sotapanna has no more conditions to kill. We try >to > > observe the precepts and do the best we can, but we cannot be >perfect. > > For the monk killing is one of the five parajikas, that is a >different > > matter. > > In Sri Lanka we discussed the matter and the question arose: do >you kill > > because you like to kill? Or you had to do your duty? There is a >difference > > here. >[snip] > > As to Vinaya, this is valuable also for laypeople. We should not > > underestimate it, Icaro. It is one of the Tipitaka. It teaches >many details > > of akusala, different degrees. Through satipatthana we learn also, >like the > > monk, as is said in the >Vinaya. All > > those who practise satipatthana are in a sense monks. > > Nina. 24186 From: Sarah Date: Fri Aug 15, 2003 1:01am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism. XIV 3, subco. no conclusion Dear Nina, Jim & Larry (& Jon), --- nina van gorkom wrote: > > By way of the path seen by wisdom. > N: But here we have to think of Jim's remark: not seen, but shown. And > the > whole sentence has to be turned around. No conclusion yet about this > sentence. ..... Greatly appreciating your extra translations and notes from the Tika. I’m probably just confusing further (in which case pls ignore), but let me add: 1. ~Naa.namoli’s glossary at back of Vism: dassana 1) seeing (the eye’s function), 2) vision, 3) term for the first path 2. From ~Naa.namoli’s transl of Sammohavinodanii: 439 “Also the path is of one kind as what should be developed; it is of two kinds as divided into tranquillity and insight*, or as divided into seeing [dassana] and developing [bhaavanaa].....” 3. 642 “That is to say, knowledge [~naa.na] is understanding. It (i.e understanding) makes known and plain the four truths with each meaning and each cause. But this ignorance when it arises does not allow that (understanding) to make that (dhamma) known and plain; thus, because of its opposition to knowledge, it is unknowing (a~n~naa.na). Also seeing (dassana) is understanding. It achieves that quality. But ignorance when it arises does not allow it to achieve, thus it is non-achievement (anabhismaya). Wakening, awakening and penetration are understanding. It wakens to that quality, awakens to it, penetetrates it. But ignorance when it arises, does not allow it to waken to, to awaken to, to penetrate it, thus it is non-wakening, non-awakening, non-penetration (ananubodha, asambodha, appat.tivedha). ***** Nina, I was wondering if the sentence after pannaaya dassitamaggena could be turned round to make more sense to me - sth like- ‘As the practice has become skilled by insight...... characteristics at various moments,... insight increases to (other) consciousness unaccompanied by understanding.??? (I realize now I may have just misunderstood your transl as ithe first line about consc. unaccomp. by und. can be read in two ways, I think). ***** * footnote for Jim (& Jon): Mt (Mulatika to Vibhanga, Burmese script 1960) “They say that ‘insight’ is Right View and Right Thinking and ‘tranquillity (samatha)’ is the remainder; for them the meaning is that virtue is included by including tranquillity since virtue is helpful to tranquillity. Alternatively it should be understood that the path obtained by the two vehicles (yaana) is spoken of as ‘tranquillity and insight’ with reference to the way of arrival. Anu.t (Anutika to Vibhanga, Burmese script 1960): By the two vehicles of tranquillity and insight. Although at the path moment tranquillity and insight can only be coupled together (yuganaddha), just as in the case of such designations [of the path] as void, so also the path can have the designations of tranquillity and insight due to the way of arrival - hence ‘with reference to the way of arrival’. Or the meaning here should be understood as that the path is insight for one in whom the wisdom faculty is in excess, tranquillity for others.” [notes added by Lance Cousins] Metta, Sarah ====== 24187 From: Sarah Date: Fri Aug 15, 2003 1:59am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Is solitude not dukkha? As well as absence of love and friendship? Hi Victor, --- yu_zhonghao wrote: > Hi Sarah, >...... In other words, living alone is better > than living with husband, wife, boyfriend, or girlfriend. Given or > giving up attachment to marriage and relationship and all the > entanglement that comes along with it, one lives alone. I would not > ask whether we should live alone in the forest or not. I would > think that whether to live alone in the forest or not is a personal > decision on how one would live his or her life. And to live in the > forest, I don't think one needs to have supernormal knowledge and to > be an arahant. ..... I’d like to quote something Larry wrote to Nori: L: “A life in samsara is stress ...... A life free from attachment is free from stress, no matter the circumstances.” In other words, rather than thinking about what is ‘a better way to live’, can we say that the best way is to see and give up the ‘entanglement’ of attachment -- regardless of the object -- at this very moment? As I understand (and certainly experience!!)those pesky kilesa (defilements) are pretty good at following us around regardless of any changes in lifestyle. One can give away all one’s possessions (as I’m sure many of us here on DSG have done before), live alone in solitude and isolation (as again, I’m sure many of us have tried), and find that these conditions do not of themselves lead to any reduction in attachment, accumulated over countless lifetimes. There really is only one way: the development of satipatthana. As Ken H put it in his usual pithy way: “If the stories become more important than the message then we're slipping into religiosity. If we can't see how some parts of the text relate to the realities of the present moment, then those parts mightn't be what we need to hear at this stage.” None of this is to suggest that for some people, living the life of a recluse or even in the forest may come very naturally. For most people, I don’t think this is so and I don’t recall the Buddha ever recommending any lay people to physically live alone as a better way to reduce attachment, but rather to develop understanding regardless of one’s lifestyle. I also believe that very few followers of the Buddha - monks or laypeople - lived entirely alone. Even the Buddha’s attendant, the Thera Meghiya found that he wasn’t suited to dwelling alone in the Mango grove, in spite of his strong wish to do so. Let me repeat part of the post about Meghiya (from Udana4, Meghiya, 1) which I wrote (to Frank again) before: ***** In brief, Meghiya is the Buddha’s attendant at the time. He sees a mango grove which inspires ‘serenity’ and which he considers suitable for making an effort on the Path. The Buddha gives some brief comments which Meghiya doesn’t appreciate and after asking permission to go to the grove for the third time ‘for the purposes of effort’, the Buddha just suggests he should do what it seems to be the time to do. To Meghiya’s great surprise, even though he has become a bhikkhu in good faith and gone to the secluded grove to make an effort, he is ovrwhelmed by thoughts concerned with sense-desires, ill-will and cruelty. He returns to the Buddha who says: “When liberation of heart is not fully mature , Meghiya, five things conduce to full maturity.” He then proceeds to elaborate on these five conditions conducive to the development of wisdom. ***** These five in brief are: 1. The good friend 2. Morality. “..............seeing fear in sins even the size of an atom.....’ 3. Talk concerned with the Dhamma and development of wholesome states 4. the 4 Right Efforts 5. Insight leading to the destruction of dukkha. ***** With regard to the first point, the good friend, the commentary adds a lot of detail.“This is the first thing that conduces to full maturity (aya.m pa.thamo dhammo paripaakaaya sa.mvattati): this blameless thing, reckoned as possession of a lovely friend, which is first on acount of its having been spoken of at the beginning of these five things due to its being primary for living the Brahmacariya and due to its being pre-eminent on account of its being of great service to all skilled states, conduces to liberation of heart’s full maturity by way of causing there to be purified(the faculties of) faith and so that are as yet unpurified....” It then quotes various suttas about the value of the ‘lovely friend’: “For this, Ananda, forms the entire Brahmacariya, that is to say, possession of a lovely friend..”. Earlier the commentary says: “Since he proceeds, by way of both mind and body, in a state that slopes, tends, inclines towards lovely individuals alone, he is “one with a lovely intimate”. By means of this triad of words, he gives rise to regard with respect to association with a lovely friend.”.end quote> ***** I’m sure we’re all talking together (rather than in solitude in the mango grove at this moment;-)) because we appreciate and respect the value of ‘lovely individuals’ and the sloping towards those who encourage us in kusala, especially panna (wisdom). Let me just share a comment from the commentary on the note above about “seeing fear in sins even the size of an atom”....: “...For whatever monk there be who beholds a sin, even the size of the smallest of atoms, taking this to be similar to Sineru, king of mountains, that is a hundred thousand yojanas, plus sixty-eight thousand more besides, in height, who also beholds mere bad speech, which is totally petty, taking this to be similar to (an offence involving ) Defeat, such a one is also known as “one seeing fear in sins even the size of an atom”. I think this gives an indication of how far there is to go;-) One last note I find interesting relates to the fact that the Buddha knew Meghiya's work would 'fail to be accomplished' but knew it was useless to try to sop him. From the sutta the Buddha says: "How can we speak, Meghiya, when you speak of effort? You should do that for which you deem it now to be the time". We also read in the commentary about all the conditions from previous lives for Meghiya to choose that spot in the grove. Let me sign off by reposting the verse which James posted, prompting these reflections on the story leading up to it: ********************************************************* > Then, on realizing the significance of that, the Blessed One on that > occasion exclaimed: > Little thoughts, subtle thoughts, > when followed, stir up the heart. > Not comprehending the thoughts of the heart, > one runs here & there, > the mind out of control. > But comprehending the thoughts of the heart, > one who is ardent, mindful, > restrains them. > When, followed, they stir up the heart, > one who is awakened > lets them go without trace. > Udana IV.1; Meghiya Sutta > ******************************************************** I think this is an important topic, Victor and I’d be glad to continue this discussion further. I’m sure many others here will share your views. With metta, Sarah ======= 24188 From: Sarah Date: Fri Aug 15, 2003 2:25am Subject: Heat and Dark in samsara Hi New Yorkers & Yasa, --- LBIDD@w... wrote: > Nina, > > I read that 3000 people died in France due to the heat wave. How is it > where you are? Be careful. ... Yes, New Yorkers, hope you get connected soon, also Jim in Ontario (?) and I'm thinking of Dan and his move..?? It would also be good to hear from Yasa in Paris....it doesn't sound like a good place to be this summer at all. We're used to the temperatures here in Asia, but equipped for them. Nowhere is equipped for heat like this in European cities. (Also hope all the poor up-to-date Windows folk haven't been hit by the latest virus... another consideration for my delay of the inevitable....) Metta, Sarah ======= 24189 From: Date: Fri Aug 15, 2003 1:53am Subject: Re: [dsg] no juice Hi, Larry - In a message dated 8/14/03 8:45:17 PM Eastern Daylight Time, LBIDD@w... writes: > Howard, > > Are you in the dark? Did you have to walk 20 miles to get home? > > Larry > > ========================= Larry, I wrote a long "thank you" reply last night, around 1:30 a.m., but right before I could send it, we lost the power again! It came back in my immediate area around 4:00 a.m. I very much appreciate your asking about me. In my same attempted reply, I also expressed my best wishes for all others, particularly list members, affected by the blackout and also for any list members from France and other European countries affected by the terrible heat wave. BTW, the power outage complicated what has been a very trying time for my wife and me. We were at the hospital all day yesterday for my wife's mother, 81, who had open-heart surgery a week or so ago to replace the aortic and mitral valves of the heart. (She would surely have died soon had that not been done.) She has been through "hell", and yesterday she took a turn for the worse. She's in very bad congestive heart failure. Powerful medications and removing nearly 3 liters of fluid from her lungs by long needles haven't saved the day. Yesterday they inserted two chest tubes for steady drainage of fluid (one more liter can out immediately), they intubated her with a breathing tube to enable her body to throw off the excess CO2 from her blood, and they gave her heavy sedation to create a temporary "induced coma" to provide deep rest. The situation could go either way now. Strong antibiotics given yesterday have managed to bring down a high fever and reduce her rapid heart rate, and that gives some good prospects. Also, in a phone call I *just* made, I learned that there has been further improvement in the heart rate and other measures, and it is possible that the breathing tube may be removed later today. This creates some hope It's painful to hope, and yet ... . For our personal lives, the power outage was the nasty-tasting icing on a spoiled cake. ;-) But perhaps they can salvage that cake yet. With much metta, and warm regards to all, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 24190 From: Date: Fri Aug 15, 2003 2:09am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Meditation practice as taught by Sidharttha Gotama himself Hi, Ken - In a message dated 8/14/03 8:48:00 PM Eastern Daylight Time, kenhowardau@y... writes: > Courses in popular meditation, as conducted by S N > Goenka, will not prevent satipatthana from ocurring but > they can give rise to wrong understanding. > -------------------------------------------- Howard: Did you have a poor experience at a Goenka retreat, Ken? I'd be interested in reading what that was. ------------------------------------------- They can give> > the impression that satipathana can only arise at times > of ritualistic practice: they can foster the idea of a > self who can control the rise and fall of dhammas: they > can foster the idea of a self who can direct mindfulness > towards a chosen object. ----------------------------------------------------- Howard: Certainly not my experience. Most of the favorable changes in me (there have been some! ;-) I can fairly attribute to my attending a 10-day Goenka retreat, a most demanding process, "popular" only in that word gets around of its excellence ad seriousness. For me it was an opportunity to develop deep concentration, powerful mindfulness and investigation of dhammas, and to undergo a life-changing and life-improving no-self experience, followed by subsequent "emptiness insights" within the years following the retreat. There has been less and less sense of self, a dropping away of a *belief* in self, and a loosening up of the personality, with a noticeable reduction in craving and aversion, in clinging, and in proliferating of concepts and "stories". There has been a general easing of the mind. So, from my perspective, while the Goenka approach is not the be-all and end-all, and is certainly not a sine qua non, I would be *quite* opposed to describing it in the negative terms that you employ. ------------------------------------------------------- > > After this was brought to my> > attention, I decided that the totally misleading idea of > control was inseparable from all of [then] my meditation > practices. > =========================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 24191 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Fri Aug 15, 2003 6:19am Subject: Re: [dsg] useful posts Larry and All --- Sarah wrote: > Hi Larry & All, > > Larry: Would it be possible to maintain an index in "Useful Posts" > of the > English Pali posts of the Visuddhimagga, something like this: > Vism. XIV, 1 (23711), 2 (23805), 3 (24104), 4 (24106), 5 (24107), 6 > (24108)? > ***** > Sarah: ... If you think this would be OK, Larry, we’ll just wait for a > volunteer who > keeps reasonably up-to-date to do this for us. (I tried and failed > - but someone else involved would be better anyway). OK, I've taken the hint. There's now a file in the 'Files' section that contains links to all the messages with English and Pali. File name: z-VismXIVlinks.htm The 'Files' section is at: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/ Jon 24192 From: m. nease Date: Fri Aug 15, 2003 6:06am Subject: Re: [dsg] duty of soldiers Hi Eaglenarius, What a fine name--thanks! I take your point and your kind consideration well and to heart--hope I didn't suggest otherwise. Best Wishes, mike ----- Original Message ----- From: eaglenarius To: Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2003 6:58 PM Subject: RE: [dsg] duty of soldiers > Hi (Mike, Nina, Ikaro and All), > > Eaglenarius Timotius is my real name, though I cannot fly and I don't have > wings. > > I know that we cannot be perfect in this world. There is always two opposite > points of view in every action. However in term of Buddhism, I'm very sure > that killing is not a kusala kamma, though in the name of country duty or > nationality. In every killing, there will be always bad consequences, > whether he is a soldier or a civilians. I just feel guilty not to stop a > friend from doing akusala kamma, it will be more fruitful to advise than > support the future akusala kamma. Please, don't misunderstand. > > Sincere bow, > > Eaglenarius > > -----Original Message----- > From: m. nease [mailto:mlnease@z...] > Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2003 7:27 PM > To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com > Subject: Re: [dsg] duty of soldiers > > > Friends, > > I take your point, E. (is 'Eaglenarius really your name?)--more to the > point, I think: Is it more useful to distinguish kusala from akusala in the > conduct of another being (a concept) or in this moment (a reality)? > > A valuable distinction, I think. > > mike > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: eaglenarius > To: > Sent: Wednesday, August 13, 2003 11:39 PM > Subject: RE: [dsg] duty of soldiers > > > > Hallo Nina, > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: nina van gorkom [mailto:nilo@e...] > > Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2003 11:26 AM > > To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com > > Subject: Re: [dsg] duty of soldiers > > > > > > Nina: Siha the general was a great laydisciple of the Buddha. A. Sujin > said, > > so long as there are kings there also have to be armies. We are living in > > this world. As a soldier you have to do your duty and being a coward is > > akusala. Only the sotapanna has no more conditions to kill. We try to > > observe the precepts and do the best we can, but we cannot be perfect. > > For the monk killing is one of the five parajikas, that is a different > > matter. > > In Sri Lanka we discussed the matter and the question arose: do you kill > > because you like to kill? Or you had to do your duty? There is a > difference > > here. > > > > EAGLE : Do you think the difference is so far? > > Before killing, a soldier has a 'cetana' to kill, and he knows his target > is > > alive, otherwise there will be no killing. Could the consequences of this > > kamma much reduced, due to the duty ? It seems analogous to a butcher > which > > has to kill animals to obey the order of customer. > > Just thinking. > > > > > > thanks, > > Eaglenarius 24193 From: m. nease Date: Fri Aug 15, 2003 6:31am Subject: Re: [dsg] duty of soldiers Right you are, Ic--it's all in the moment, no? mike ----- Original Message ----- From: icaro franca To: Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2003 7:37 AM Subject: Re: [dsg] duty of soldiers > Dear Mike: > ------------------------------------------------- > > Hello Again, > > --------------------------------------------------- > > Hello... Hellooow... Helloooowwww... > Hello !!! > > ----------------------------------------------- > Mike: " The conclusion (tentative) that I've come to > is that > > liberation by way of > > jhaana requires the extraordinary purity of ordained > > life (polished like a > > conch-shell and so on)--and that with good company > > (of preceptor > > especially). To find these conditions today? Good > > luck. > > ------------------------------------------------ > > Did you see ? > Carry on decisions can be very hard sometimes. If > you keep yourself thinking that one must have got this > or that requisites: good company, preceptors, good > conditions and so on, no definite step will be assumed > by you at any path. Siddartha Gautama left his Great > House towards an unbelievable mystery: the outer > world, to find something totally strange and dubious > for himself: the the Existence of all beings´final > answer. > Personally, I take on this matters at other hand: > sometimes I try to keep my thoughts focuses on the end > line, take a deep breath...and CHARGE !!! The End or > Bust !!!... sometimes I stop myself , sit down with > legs folded , take again a deep breath and I keep > trying to cultivate my mind. > > Keep Boostin´!!! > > Metta, Ícaro 24194 From: susan macqueen Date: Fri Aug 15, 2003 7:21am Subject: Hello, I have just joined the group it looks very interesting. I am very new to Buddhism and at the moment I am reading literature on this and felt it would be beneficial to me to discuss, or read ongoing discussions. I'm very much looking forward to getting to know people in this group and of course learning what I can about Buddhist practises and making this a part of my everyday. Sanaya 24195 From: icaro franca Date: Fri Aug 15, 2003 8:38am Subject: Re: [dsg] duty of soldiers Dear Mike: Mike: "Right you are, Ic--it's all in the moment, no?" ----------------------------------------------------- YEAH !!!!! But the conservation of Angular Momenta is an other story! ( And my cold disappeared at last... anyone here from NY ?) Metta, Ícaro ===== Seize the time, there´s only minutes left to zero Just got a little taste, I gotta get some more, Just me and you 24196 From: Kenneth Ong Date: Fri Aug 15, 2003 9:04am Subject: Re: [dsg] For Nina and Jaran -Qus on sammasana-~nana (3rd stage of insight) Hi Mike What I intend to mean is that whatever is not paramttha dhamma is concept or whatever we define. Even Buddha is a concept. rgds Ken O --- "m. nease" wrote: > Agreed, Kenneth--same question, I think? I'm definitely out of my > depth > here--must read up on samasanna. > > mike > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Kenneth Ong > To: > Sent: Sunday, August 10, 2003 8:31 AM > Subject: Re: [dsg] For Nina and Jaran -Qus on sammasana-~nana (3rd > stage of > insight) > > > > Hi mike > > > > I think if we ask ourselves whether is group a paramattha dhamma, > > then the answer lies there. > > > > rgds > > KC > > > > --- "m. nease" wrote: > Hi Sarah, > > > > > > Are 'groups' concepts? > > > > > > mike 24197 From: Kenneth Ong Date: Fri Aug 15, 2003 9:15am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Control Hi Howard If there is a self involved in control, then it is non existent at all as in the first place where is self to be found. Control needs a self to direct If there is no self, where is there control. So there is no control as there is no self in the first place. All are just paramatthas dhammas and conditions. rgds Ken O --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, James - > > In a message dated 8/10/03 11:34:43 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > buddhatrue@y... writes: > > > Hi Victor (Howard), > > > > Since it can't be done (but it is sure fun trying!), I think it > is an > > illustration that there is control but within certain conditioned > > > boundaries. Or stated another way, the middle path. > > > > Metta, James > > > > > ======================== > Exactly as I see it. > > With metta, > Howard 24198 From: Kenneth Ong Date: Fri Aug 15, 2003 9:23am Subject: Re: [dsg] FW: meanings of dhamma, no 5. Hi Nina Please explain why it is indetermine. abyaakataa, or avyaakataa. Avyaakata means not declared, not determined. They are not determined as kusala nor as akusala, they are indeterminate. rgds Ken O 24199 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Aug 15, 2003 10:15am Subject: Re: [dsg] duty of soldiers Dear Eagle, Victor and all, op 14-08-2003 08:39 schreef eaglenarius op eaglenarius@c...: >N: In Sri Lanka we discussed the matter and the question arose: do you kill > because you like to kill? Or you had to do your duty? There is a difference > here. > EAGLE : Do you think the difference is so far? > Before killing, a soldier has a 'cetana' to kill, and he knows his target is > alive, otherwise there will be no killing. N: We all agree what killing is and that killing is akusala kamma. Victor misunderstands me when he thinks that I say killing is OK so long as we are not sotapanna. The monk leads a life of non-violence, because of conditions and his life style should be greatly praised. Laypeople cannot live a monk's life in the world. We have to face our life in the world, and at the same time we really try to observe the precepts. We also know that only the sotapanna has no more conditions to kill. We have to remember the Co to the Mahaparinibbana sutta, as quoted by Sarah: Thus, we have to face life in the world, what if there would be no armies, no police, no veterinarians? Suppose one is a soldier, it all depends on conditions whether he will be in the situation that he has to kill. Having to kill or liking to kill: these are different degrees of akusala kamma. There are many degrees of each akusala. The fact that we have already such or such profession is also conditioned. Conditions work in a very complicated way in our lives. We cannot know the citta of someone else in a given situation, we can only know our own citta. That is why Mike asked: We may reason and think of situations in the future, but there will be no end to thinking. Better know this moment. It is the best way to go the right way in our life. Eagle, my Buddhism in Daily life, Ch on Factors of the eightfold Path, right livelihood, may be of interest. The book has (partly) been translated into Bahasa by the Bogor group. Nina.