24200 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Aug 15, 2003 10:15am Subject: all that is real, to Icaro Dear Icaro, Kusala dhamma, akusala dhamma, avyakata dhamma. I thought of you when working at meanings of dhamma, no 9. By that time you may be struggling, sweating and sighing at Bootkamp. You would then not be able to read this, (but you are back before Christmas?), and thus I post this part now. Do not answer me, you have no time. The Saddaniti explains dhamma as knowable (neyya): <"Kusalaa dhammaa"ti-aadiisu ~neyye. In a passage as ³wholesome dhammas etc.² the word dhamma means what is knowable, what is to be known.> N: The Saddaniti, as we have seen above, defines dhamma as sabhaava in the same way: N: Thus, all that is real, inside or outside, is classified as these three dhammas: kusalaa dhammaa, akusalaa dhammaa, abyaakataa dhammaa. They are sabhaava, they each have their own specific nature (or characteristic), and these characteristics are unalterable. Kusala is always kusala, akusala is always akusala. They are not abstractions, when their characteristics appear, they are are to be understood, neyya. Their true nature can be known. The Commentary to the ³Muulapariyaayasutta² explains dhamma as neyya: The word dhamma is associated with dhaareti: to bear. Thus, Abhidhamma is not theory, but we have to discover the truth of dhammas gradually. Seeing is avyakata dhamma, it has its own characteristic, it experiences visible object. Its characteristic is unalterable, seeing is always seeing. There is seeing now, it is to be known, neyya. Aversion is akusala dhamma, it has its own unalterable characteristic. When it appears it can be known. Nina. 24201 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Aug 15, 2003 10:15am Subject: Re: [dsg] Co Parinibbana sutta. Dear Sarah, Thank you very much for the useful passages. Yes, I would like b and c, only, your arms!! You should not type too much, no hurry. B: some people have doubts about it. C: seems interesting. Nina. op 14-08-2003 10:53 schreef Sarah op sarahdhhk@y...: B: no other true ascetics > or way to nibbana outside the Buddha’s teachings and C:Dhamma’ referring > to correctness in welcome. If there’s anything anyone would like me to > check, pls ask....) 24202 From: icaro franca Date: Fri Aug 15, 2003 11:00am Subject: Re: [dsg] all that is real, to Icaro Dear Nina: Nina: Kusala dhamma, akusala dhamma, avyakata dhamma. > I thought of you when working at meanings of dhamma, > no 9. By that time you > may be struggling, sweating and sighing at Bootkamp. > You would then not be > able to read this, (but you are back before > Christmas?), and thus I post > this part now. Do not answer me, you have no time. ----------------------------------------------------- Don't worry Nina. My Boot Camp will begin at september and I will come back to Rio only at Next year's january. Untill this time I have got some free time. That's interesting. The First Chapter of The Dhammasangani - Mattika - only speaks about the Abhyakta Dhamma at the first 22 chapters. After that, we got only Hetu and Ahetu Dhammas, that can be Kusala or Akusala also. I usually make comparisions with the Vipassana techniques and this unique signature of the Dhammasangani. The following chapters I call "The Supermarket of Good Thoughts"- long sequences of stanzas beginning with "Katame Kusala Dhamma" that are sometimes easy to read on! My time never was so well applied! ---------------------------------------------------- > N: Thus, all that is real, inside or outside, is > classified as these three > dhammas: kusalaa dhammaa, akusalaa dhammaa, > abyaakataa dhammaa. They are > sabhaava, they each have their own specific nature > (or characteristic), and > these characteristics are unalterable. Kusala is > always kusala, akusala is > always akusala. -------------------------------------------------- And you can find some permutations of these two with the Hetu and Ahetu Categories very intriguing. As I have said before, the very first impression I had reading the Dhammasangani, many years ago, was "wow! That is the way the Japanese Haikai are made!!!" ---------------------------------------------------- Nina_ " The Commentary to the ³Muulapariyaayasutta² explains > dhamma as neyya: in the passage: ³All dhammas in all their modes > enter the threshold of the > Exalted One¹s portal of knowledge,² it is the > knowable. Here the word occurs > in the sense of things endowed with a specific > nature (sabhaava). This is > the word-meaning: ³They bear their own > characteristics, thus they are > dhammas² (attano lakkha.na.m dhaarentii ti > dhammaa).> > The word dhamma is associated with dhaareti: to > bear" -------------------------------------------------- Very good. Dhamma can be expressed as the own phenomenon perceived by senses - form - rupa (1) eye - cakkhu (8) sound - sadda (2) ear - sota (9) odor - gandha (3) nose - ghana (10) taste - rasa (4) tongue - jivha (11) (tangibility - iphothavva) body - kaya (12) temperature - tezo (5) resistance - pathavi (6) motion - vayo (7) (cohesion - apo) Or as Dhatus of these, namely 12 senses and objects are gross - olarikarupam... and the other is subtle - sukhumarupam. ------------------------------------------------- Nina: "Thus, Abhidhamma is not theory, but we have to > discover the truth of dhammas > gradually. Seeing is avyakata dhamma, it has its own > characteristic, it > experiences visible object. Its characteristic is > unalterable, seeing is > always seeing" --------------------------------------------------- Hmmm... interesting! So the Dhatus of vision are Avyakata Dhamma... perhaps because the passive role assigned to the eye!!! ---------------------------------------------------- There is seeing now, it is to be > known, neyya. Aversion is > akusala dhamma, it has its own unalterable > characteristic. When it appears > it can be known. ---------------------------------------------------- God thanks is Friday !!!! I am almost ending the download of the complete www.tipitaka.org and finally...heheheheheheheh!!!!... All the Pali Canon will rain down down down !!!! (Good material! Myanmar Post Council version!) Metta, Icaro ===== Seize the time, there´s only minutes left to zero Just got a little taste, I gotta get some more, Just me and you 24203 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Aug 15, 2003 11:01am Subject: Re: [dsg] FW: meanings of dhamma, no 5. Hi Kenneth Ong, op 15-08-2003 18:23 schreef Kenneth Ong op ashkenn2k@y...:> > Please explain why it is indetermine. > > abyaakataa, or avyaakataa. Avyaakata means not declared, > not determined. They are not determined as kusala nor as akusala, > they are indeterminate. All dhammas which are neither kusala nor akusala have been classified as indeterminate. Citta and cetasika which are vipaka, those which are kiriya, rupa and nibbana. There is not much to explain, it is just named like that. Nina. 24204 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Aug 15, 2003 11:01am Subject: Re: [dsg] no juice To all New Yorkers, and Jim in Canada, op 15-08-2003 02:44 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > Howard, > > Are you in the dark? Did you have to walk 20 miles to get home? N: Yes, I thought of you all. Mike is also in New York? I was there at the first blackout, long ago. Lodewijk helped with the traffic. I bumped my head while walking in our flat upstairs. Those were days. Nina. 24205 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Aug 15, 2003 11:01am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism. XIV 3, subco. no conclusion Hi Larry, op 15-08-2003 01:54 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: The > endeavour that leads to manifestation of the path doesn't begin until > the insight knowledge of rise and fall. This is the "understanding" > level. Correct? N: But understanding begins before that. The first stage of tender insight: knowing what is nama what is rupa. As to the text, I would rather wait for Jim. Sarah, I look again with your suggestions. But dassita is shown, dassana: the seeing, I tend to mess around with these. Nina. 24206 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Aug 15, 2003 11:01am Subject: Re: [dsg] hot Hi Larry, op 15-08-2003 02:46 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > I read that 3000 people died in France due to the heat wave. How is it > where you are? Be careful. N: You made me laugh. Yes, very hot, especially in front of a computer or while blowing the recorder for my father. And we have to be careful with electricity. Tomorrow we go for a long walk, to see heather in bloom. Nina. 24207 From: Date: Fri Aug 15, 2003 7:26am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Control Hi, Ken - In a message dated 8/15/03 12:16:24 PM Eastern Daylight Time, ashkenn2k@y... writes: > Hi Howard > > If there is a self involved in control, then it is non existent at > all as in the first place where is self to be found. Control needs a > self to direct If there is no self, where is there control. So > there is no control as there is no self in the first place. All are > just paramatthas dhammas and conditions. > > > > rgds > Ken O ============================ Just to clarify my beliefs and my use of language: 1) I do not believe there is self/own-being to be found anywhere, 2) I see no requirement for there to be a "self" in order for there to be control - the sankharas, cetana in particular, all quite impersonal, exercise a forming or directing or "controlling" influence, and 3) I prefer to speak of influence rather than control, for if 'control' is intended to signify absolute control then I agree that such does not exist. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 24208 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Fri Aug 15, 2003 11:31am Subject: [dsg] Re: Is solitude not dukkha? As well as absence of love and friendship? Hi Sarah, This is how I see it: Living alone in solitude does not mean that one lives without friendship and association with the good and virtuous(kalyamittata). Living with husband, or wife, or girlfriend, or boyfriend, or in a house crowded with children and possession is not living alone. It is attachment. To realize the cessation of dukkha, living alone in solitude is better than living with husband, or wife, or girlfriend, or boyfriend, or in a house crowded with children and possession. Let me give a simile. If one smokes cigarette for sometime, he or she will eventually get addicted to smoking. With this addiction, one might keep smoking without knowing that smoking is harmful to health. Or one knows that smoking is harmful to health but keep smoking and does not want to stop. Or one realizes that smoking is harmful to health and wants to stop. If so, he or she has to go through a period of addiction withdrawal, which is not always pleasant. Living with husband, or wife, or girlfriend, or boyfriend, or in a house crowded with children and possession is like having the habit of smoking cigarette. Living along in solitude is like not having the habit of smoking cigarette. Living alone in solitude but with by reoccurring sensual thoughts, thoughts of ill will, and thoughts of doing harm is like going through addiction withdrawal, with reoccurring craving for nicoltine. Living with husband, or wife, or girlfriend, or boyfriend, or in a house crowded with children and possession and saying it is possible to live like that without attachment is like having the habit of smoking cigarette and saying it is possible to smoke like that without addiction. Your comments are appreciated. Peace, Victor * Udana IV.1 Meghiya Sutta About Meghiya http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/khuddaka/udana/ud4-01.html 24209 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Fri Aug 15, 2003 0:15pm Subject: Re: [dsg] duty of soldiers Hi Nina and all, Nina, it is not that I misunderstood you. It is more that I am not quite sure what you are trying to say. My questions to you and all: Can one refrain oneself from killing? Can one choose a profession that does not require one to kill? Peace, Victor PS. Nina, while you addressed the message directly to me as indicated in the salutation, you addressed me in third person in the body of the message. It is like talking to someone and addressing him or her in third person. 24210 From: m. nease Date: Fri Aug 15, 2003 0:19pm Subject: Re: [dsg] For Nina and Jaran -Qus on sammasana-~nana (3rd stage of insight) Understood, Ken--thanks. mike ----- Original Message ----- From: Kenneth Ong To: Sent: Friday, August 15, 2003 9:04 AM Subject: Re: [dsg] For Nina and Jaran -Qus on sammasana-~nana (3rd stage of insight) > Hi Mike > > What I intend to mean is that whatever is not paramttha dhamma is > concept or whatever we define. Even Buddha is a concept. > > rgds > Ken O 24211 From: norakat147 Date: Fri Aug 15, 2003 0:46pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Ethical justification for passivity in social action & politics ---snip ---- > > > > Farmers work hard all day to produce food. People (however few) work > > to try and make things work in politics and government; People work > > hard and stress to create and sustain civil structures and services. > > While bhikkus and bhikkunis collect this food during alms rounds free > > of charge, free of work, which people have worked so hard, and have > > stressed to produce; they eat it and sit, absorbed in Jhana, free > > from stress, aloof from worldly affairs. > ------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > The bhikkhus and bhikkhunis, in addition to what I have said before > about them, are the primary preservers of the Dhamma, and for this I think we > should be enormously grateful. > ------------------------------------------------- > > > > > What if the entire world did this? Who will make the food? Who will > > work? Who will stress? > > > ----------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Do you think there is much likelihood of this? ;-) Also, what would > happen if everybody adopted exactly the career, *whatever* that career might be? > Suppose we all become insurance salesmen? ;-)) > ----------------------------------------------- lol ...thats very funny. I though of this too; it just would not happen (at least in the current world we live in). Obviously the buddhist path (in the extremest sense) is not for everybody, and could not be. It would not create a sustainable society. It is as though that those who do choose to take the path, "get off the hook"; They lay down the burden. I wonder though if it is possible for all people to lay down the burden. nori 24212 From: Date: Fri Aug 15, 2003 0:46pm Subject: Re: [dsg] no juice Hi Howard, I'm glad you're ok, but I'm very sorry to read about your mother in law. The Tibetans have a meditation practice called "sending and taking" (tonglen) in which one breaths in all the suffering of others sends by the out breath your own goodness to others. After a while it becomes a matter of sending and taking energy and riding the breath isn't necessary. I know at times like this there can be a feeling of helplessness. So this is something you could do. It is a form of subtle communication and probably has its roots in the Brahma Vihara. Larry 24213 From: Date: Fri Aug 15, 2003 9:11am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Control In a message dated 8/15/2003 11:26:47 AM Pacific Daylight Time, upasaka@a... writes: > Hi, Ken - > > In a message dated 8/15/03 12:16:24 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > ashkenn2k@y... writes: > > >Hi Howard > > > >If there is a self involved in control, then it is non existent at > >all as in the first place where is self to be found. Control needs a > >self to direct If there is no self, where is there control. So > >there is no control as there is no self in the first place. All are > >just paramatthas dhammas and conditions. > > > > > > > >rgds > >Ken O > ============================ > Just to clarify my beliefs and my use of language: 1) I do not believe > there is self/own-being to be found anywhere, 2) I see no requirement for > there to be a "self" in order for there to be control - the sankharas, > cetana in > particular, all quite impersonal, exercise a forming or directing or > "controlling" influence, and 3) I prefer to speak of influence rather than > control, for > if 'control' is intended to signify absolute control then I agree that such > does not exist. > > With metta, > Howard > Hi Howard and Ken O Regarding the above, only point 1 is correct IMO. Point 2 is incorrect because volitions are merely reactions to other conditions. How can "reactions" be "in control"? Point 3... Do "reactions" influence other things? Yes they do. If dominos are set up so that they will form a chain reaction of toppling into each other; a domino in the middle of that chain is reacting to the domino that hits it and influencing the one that it hits. But it is not in any kind of control. The words "control" and "influence" are not interchangeable. The notion of control is not supportable by an argument about influence. To think in terms that there is "control" but not "absolute control" as akin to those who think there is a temporary self but not an absolute self. Both ideas have not purged the idea of self. (Although the "control" idea is more subtly affected by self-view.) I agree with Ken O. Any notion of control has to include the notion of self. Therefore, in actuality, neither exist...i.e., self or control. rgds TG 24214 From: icaro franca Date: Fri Aug 15, 2003 1:23pm Subject: Re: [dsg] duty of soldiers Dear Victor: Victor: "My questions to you and all: > Can one refrain oneself from killing? Can one > choose a profession > that does not require one to kill?" ----------------------------------------------------- Victor, it´s difficult make a statement on these questions that not sounds as a pious preachery or a vacuous instruction of how to hammer on our heads with a mantra to keep them quiet and peaceful ("Meditation and Hammering Heads for Dummies" or something alike ). Perhaps if you take note of your own Citta´s processes, how do they play with their cetasikas, the way of the Nama and Rupa´s interplay... you will find that to Kill or require one person to kill is not a Kusala Dhamma: it´s a impulse that follows a definite mind process from Bhavanga to the last end - a Registering form of conscience that´s not good at all. Corrections are welcome... Metta, Ícaro > > Peace, > Victor > > PS. Nina, while you addressed the message directly > to me as > indicated in the salutation, you addressed me in > third person in the > body of the message. It is like talking to someone > and addressing > him or her in third person. ===== Seize the time, there´s only minutes left to zero Just got a little taste, I gotta get some more, Just me and you 24215 From: Date: Fri Aug 15, 2003 11:00am Subject: Re: [dsg] no juice Hi, Larry - In a message dated 8/15/03 3:46:56 PM Eastern Daylight Time, LBIDD@w... writes: > Hi Howard, > > I'm glad you're ok, but I'm very sorry to read about your mother in law. > ---------------------------------------------- Howard: Thank you! ---------------------------------------------- > The Tibetans have a meditation practice called "sending and taking" > (tonglen) in which one breaths in all the suffering of others sends by > the out breath your own goodness to others. After a while it becomes a > matter of sending and taking energy and riding the breath isn't > necessary. > ---------------------------------------------- Howard: The description of the practice has the sound (to me) of legitimacy and reality. --------------------------------------------- I know at times like this there can be a feeling of> > helplessness. So this is something you could do. It is a form of subtle > communication and probably has its roots in the Brahma Vihara. -------------------------------------------- Howard: I have heard tonglen referred to as Tibetan metta practice! Larry, thank you very much for your kind thoughts and for your good suggestion. I will add this to my meditations. We visit with her several times a day, talk to her and encourage her all the time, and I do think that is helpful. In any case, it turns out that today is a much better day for her. The breathing tube and another tube have been removed, her fever is gone, heart rate slowed, and she is unsedated now. Some depression/sadness has set in, which I explained to her is par for the course post-surgically, and as the result of medications, including sedation, and it doesn't last, but aside from that today is a *much* better day. ------------------------------------------ > > Larry > ====================== With metta and much gratefulness, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 24216 From: Date: Fri Aug 15, 2003 11:09am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Control Hi, TG - In a message dated 8/15/03 4:12:36 PM Eastern Daylight Time, TGrand458@a... writes: > > Hi Howard and Ken O > > Regarding the above, only point 1 is correct IMO. > > Point 2 is incorrect because volitions are merely reactions to other > conditions. How can "reactions" be "in control"? > > Point 3... Do "reactions" influence other things? Yes they do. If dominos > > are set up so that they will form a chain reaction of toppling into each > other; a domino in the middle of that chain is reacting to the domino that > hits it > and influencing the one that it hits. But it is not in any kind of control. > > The words "control" and "influence" are not interchangeable. The notion of > control is not supportable by an argument about influence. > > To think in terms that there is "control" but not "absolute control" as akin > > to those who think there is a temporary self but not an absolute self. Both > > ideas have not purged the idea of self. (Although the "control" idea is > more > subtly affected by self-view.) I agree with Ken O. Any notion of control > has > to include the notion of self. Therefore, in actuality, neither > exist...i.e., > self or control. > > rgds > TG > ======================== If whatever you mean by 'control' requires a self, then I do not believe in such control - my position would be that of "no-control". I do believe, however, that sankharas, particularly cetana, all impersonal and arisen due to causes and conditions and lacking independence, are formative functions and exercise influence on events. If a position of no-control denies this, then I disagree with *such* a version of no-control. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 24217 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Fri Aug 15, 2003 3:15pm Subject: Re: [dsg] duty of soldiers Hi Ícaro, These questions do not require a reply that sounds like a pious sermon or a vacuous instruction of how to hammer on our heads with a mantra to keep them quiet and peaceful. A "yes" or "no" answer would suffice. Peace, Victor 24218 From: christine_forsyth Date: Fri Aug 15, 2003 3:53pm Subject: Re: [dsg] duty of soldiers Hello Victor, and all, Perhaps I am missing something again ... I remember someone confusing me(or me confusing myself over their post?) when I understood them to say a few months back (something like) "working in an abattoir as a slaughterer could be Right Livelihood". I vehemently disagree and I've never figured out how it could be so ... but assume I missed something abhidhammically deep and meaningfull as no-one else seemed perturbed. My objection starts with the choice of occupation. I assume even with 'no-control' there is the possibility of a thoughtful choice for most people. Of course, when there are certain conditions like conscription, or starvation, there is little choice. I am sure soldiers are mentioned by the Buddha in the suttas ... perhaps his opinion is worth considering? metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "yu_zhonghao" wrote: > Hi Ícaro, > > These questions do not require a reply that sounds like a pious > sermon or a vacuous instruction of how to hammer on our heads with a > mantra to keep them quiet and peaceful. A "yes" or "no" answer > would suffice. > > Peace, > Victor 24219 From: Date: Fri Aug 15, 2003 4:41pm Subject: Re: [dsg] useful posts Jon: "OK, I've taken the hint. There's now a file in the 'Files' section that contains links to all the messages with English and Pali." Hi Jon, What I find most useful is just an index to your original Eng/Pali post without any comment. The replies may not copy the text. Also, the email number needs to be identified with the chapter and paragraph number. So, if I want to copy a certain paragraph in an email I can just look it up in the index. Hopefully, this index will eventually be too big for Useful Posts and will have to have its own file. For now there should only be six entries: Vism. XIV, 1 (23711), 2 (23805), 3 (24104), 4 (24106), 5 (24107), 6 (24108) Larry ps: Sarah, sorry for not replying to your reply. I didn't get it. It seems like one or two emails a week don't make it through my ISP. L. 24220 From: Jim Anderson Date: Fri Aug 15, 2003 5:03pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Heat and Dark in samsara Hi Sarah, Yes, I was among the 50 million affected by the blackout. The power was back on when I got up this morning and has remained on since then. My biggest concern during the blackout was the contents of my frig! I could be subject to 2hr rotating blackouts over the next few days. I think it'll be awhile before they find out the exact cause. It seems that it has something to do with a heavy power demand on a hot day and antiquated transmission lines. I think the energy problems will only continue to get worse in the months and years ahead. They say this kind of blackout could just as easily happen during an extremely cold spell in the winter. Best wishes, Jim in Ontario, Canada 24221 From: icaro franca Date: Fri Aug 15, 2003 5:25pm Subject: Re: [dsg] duty of soldiers Dear Victor: Victor:" A "yes" or > "no" answer > would suffice." ---------------------------------------------------- Yes! It´s perfectly possible avoid wrong livelihood. Since to Kill and require another person to kill are included at these, so it´s possible avoid them. But this first step begins in our minds. Metta, Ícaro ===== Seize the time, there´s only minutes left to zero Just got a little taste, I gotta get some more, Just me and you 24222 From: Date: Fri Aug 15, 2003 5:27pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Control Hi Ken (good to see you), Howard, & TG, The way I read the books, there are several inexorable (unchangable) results of a strong intentional action. These results mostly arise in future lives. The only reason they would not arise is because of nibbana. In that sense intention (or kamma) almost absolutely controls several results. On the other hand, the cause of a good deal of our suffering or anger is frustrated intentions. So in that sense intentions are very feeble instruments of desire. Desire is never really fulfilled but goodness or badness can be cultivated. Larry 24223 From: icaro franca Date: Fri Aug 15, 2003 5:37pm Subject: Re: [dsg] duty of soldiers Hi Christine Christine:" Perhaps I am missing something again ... I remember > someone > confusing me(or me confusing myself over their > post?) when I > understood them to say a few months back (something > like) "working in > an abattoir as a slaughterer could be Right > Livelihood". I > vehemently disagree and I've never figured out how > it could be > so ..." ------------------------------------------------------- Chris, as a matter of fact, the Vinaya rules prescribe all possible occupations a good buddhist can perform - I never read all the Pattimokha (and Nina sometimes grills me about it...) but I can remember some stanzas about don´t deal with Pharmacology, making of remedies, poisons and so on. --------------------------------------------------- Christine: " but assume I missed something > abhidhammically deep and > meaningfull as no-one else seemed perturbed. > My objection starts with the choice of occupation. > I assume even with > 'no-control' there is the possibility of a > thoughtful choice for most > people. Of course, when there are certain conditions > like > conscription, or starvation, there is little > choice. I am sure > soldiers are mentioned by the Buddha in the suttas > ... perhaps his > opinion is worth considering?" --------------------------------------------------- About these questions, take a good plunge on Vinaya and free your mind ! Metta, Ícaro ===== Seize the time, there´s only minutes left to zero Just got a little taste, I gotta get some more, Just me and you 24224 From: christine_forsyth Date: Fri Aug 15, 2003 5:50pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Heat and Dark in samsara Hello Jim, Howard, and anyone else in the twilight zone, Ah! these soft North Americans! It'll be a good reminder to you all of how much of the world lives all the time. I'm sure the Queensland Government has our best interests at heart over here because they put us through a 'training run' three or four times a year. (I must remember to thank them.) You probably know all this and more. Once you know the black-out will last for a while, open the freezer once only, and take out bread and meat (if eaten) for a day or so. They'll be fine in a cool dark place, on a covered plate over a bowl filled with ice cubes if you had any to start with. Have OHT milk on hand. Lots of tinned and fresh fruit, nuts and veges will help. Don't lose your can opener (the dog will be angry) or matches! Have oil lamps, torches and candles always on hand. I can do without cooking - my main irritation when the power goes off is losing the water pump for the drinking water, toilets and showers, and having to cart buckets of water for these purposes from a tank. And no computer. metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Jim Anderson" wrote: > Hi Sarah, > > Yes, I was among the 50 million affected by the blackout. The power > was back on when I got up this morning and has remained on since then. > My biggest concern during the blackout was the contents of my frig! I > could be subject to 2hr rotating blackouts over the next few days. I > think it'll be awhile before they find out the exact cause. It seems > that it has something to do with a heavy power demand on a hot day and > antiquated transmission lines. I think the energy problems will only > continue to get worse in the months and years ahead. They say this > kind of blackout could just as easily happen during an extremely cold > spell in the winter. > > Best wishes, > Jim in Ontario, Canada 24225 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Fri Aug 15, 2003 6:12pm Subject: Re: [dsg] useful posts Larry --- LBIDD@w... wrote: > Hi Jon, > > What I find most useful is just an index to your original Eng/Pali > post > without any comment. The replies may not copy the text. Also, the > email > number needs to be identified with the chapter and paragraph > number. So, > if I want to copy a certain paragraph in an email I can just look > it up > in the index. Hopefully, this index will eventually be too big for > Useful Posts and will have to have its own file. For now there > should > only be six entries: > > Vism. XIV, 1 (23711), 2 (23805), 3 (24104), 4 (24106), 5 (24107), 6 > (24108) Sorry if I’m being a bit slow on the uptake, but I believe that what I’ve put in the Files section is exactly what you have asked for, in functional terms. Here is what you see when you open it: Vism XIV, 1 (Msg No. 23711) Vism XIV, 2 (Msg No. 23805) Vism XIV, 3 (Msg No. 24104) Vism XIV, 4 (Msg No. 24106) Vism XIV, 5 (Msg No. 24107) Vism XIV, 6 (Msg No. 24108) Are you sure the file you checked was the right one? Please come back with further elaboration if I have missed something. Jon PS It's just occurred to me that perhaps what you saw was my 'practice run' (before I put out the message) to see if I could work out how it should be done. It was only up there for a few minutes! 24226 From: rjkjp1 Date: Fri Aug 15, 2003 6:41pm Subject: Re: [dsg] duty of soldiers --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, icaro franca wrote: > > Perhaps if you take note of your own Citta´s > processes, how do they play with their cetasikas, the > way of the Nama and Rupa´s interplay... you will find > that to Kill or require one person to kill is not a > Kusala Dhamma: it´s a impulse that follows a definite > mind process from Bhavanga to the last end - a > Registering form of conscience that´s not good at all. > _____ Dear Icaro, I think what you said is the key. I think of police, for example, as protectors of society, but sometimes they do akusala kamma such as when locking people up. As a teacher I like to think I have right livelihood (ha) but of course much of my time is spent in selfish career goals, and even in the classroom we sometimes talk about things (part of my duty) that are frivolous. Beautiful to study it all ('take note' as you put it) and see how conditions are happening without any self (even the conceit about 'having right livelihood' can be known as a conditioned element). In Thailand the King is the Supreme Commander of the Armed forces and he is looked upon with great love by almost all Thai's (and many of us farang too!). In the Dhammapada (47) Atthakatta there is the story of prince Vitutabbha who had a grudge against the Buddha's relatives the Sakyans. He raised an army and went to wipe them out. Now the Sakyans were great warriors and wise. They were almost all sotapanna (first stage of enlightenment) according to the commentary. When Vitutabbha's army attacked the Sakyans went forward with great vigor showing their military prowess and the army of Vitutabbha retreated in panic. But the minister of the prince knew that the Sakyans couldn't kill so he told the prince and army that the sakyans were deliberately missing. It was true , the arrows were hitting close to the men , even passing through their hair but not inflicting death. Once this was realised the prince's army returned and slaughtered the noble Sakyan, and Vitutabbha washed the Sakyan's hall with their own blood. It is how the Sakyan clan was almost eradicated from North India. Robertk 24227 From: Date: Fri Aug 15, 2003 7:24pm Subject: Re: [dsg] useful posts Hi Jon, Sorry, I didn't see it. What I was looking at was the entry in Useful Posts. Larry ----------------------- Jon: Sorry if I'm being a bit slow on the uptake, but I believe that what I've put in the Files section is exactly what you have asked for, in functional terms. 24228 From: Kenneth Ong Date: Fri Aug 15, 2003 7:39pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Control Hi Howard You right that conditions influence our volition and volition then conditions our next volition and so on.... Such an influence is always deceptively seen as a control which in fact is only a condition rgds Ken O --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, TG - > > In a message dated 8/15/03 4:12:36 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > TGrand458@a... writes: > > > > > Hi Howard and Ken O > > > > Regarding the above, only point 1 is correct IMO. > > > > Point 2 is incorrect because volitions are merely reactions to > other > > conditions. How can "reactions" be "in control"? > > > > Point 3... Do "reactions" influence other things? Yes they do. > If dominos > > > > are set up so that they will form a chain reaction of toppling > into each > > other; a domino in the middle of that chain is reacting to the > domino that > > hits it > > and influencing the one that it hits. But it is not in any kind > of control. > > > > The words "control" and "influence" are not interchangeable. The > notion of > > control is not supportable by an argument about influence. > > > > To think in terms that there is "control" but not "absolute > control" as akin > > > > to those who think there is a temporary self but not an absolute > self. Both > > > > ideas have not purged the idea of self. (Although the "control" > idea is > > more > > subtly affected by self-view.) I agree with Ken O. Any notion > of control > > has > > to include the notion of self. Therefore, in actuality, neither > > exist...i.e., > > self or control. > > > > rgds > > TG > > > ======================== > If whatever you mean by 'control' requires a self, then I do > not > believe in such control - my position would be that of > "no-control". I do believe, > however, that sankharas, particularly cetana, all impersonal and > arisen due to > causes and conditions and lacking independence, are formative > functions and > exercise influence on events. If a position of no-control denies > this, then I > disagree with *such* a version of no-control. > > With metta, > Howard > 24229 From: Date: Fri Aug 15, 2003 5:16pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Control Hi, Ken (and TG) - In a message dated 8/15/03 10:40:00 PM Eastern Daylight Time, ashkenn2k@y... writes: > Hi Howard > > You right that conditions influence our volition and volition then > conditions our next volition and so on.... > > Such an influence is always deceptively seen as a control which in > fact is only a condition > > > > rgds > Ken O > ========================= No disagreement here, Ken. It's all conditions - of various sorts, of course - but just impersonal conditions/functions playing their parts. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 24230 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Fri Aug 15, 2003 9:26pm Subject: RE: [dsg] duty of soldiers Dear Christine, Abhidhammically, the active process for us is either kusala or akusala. Whenever there is kusala at the strength that it violates the 5 precepts connected to how you make a living, then there is already a wrong livelihood. This could happen to anyone, not just soldiers or slaughterers. Don't you think there would be a soldier who would never once kill (another human being) in his life? Many soldiers turn out to be diplomats: one who tries to cajole together peace rather than war. I think that is a noble intention. It is harder to see how somebody who slaughters regularly can be said to have a right livelihood, but on the other hand, even for a slaughterer, there might be kusala states alternating at different moments too. kom > -----Original Message----- > From: christine_forsyth [mailto:cforsyth@v...] > Sent: Friday, August 15, 2003 3:54 PM > To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com > Subject: Re: [dsg] duty of soldiers > > > Hello Victor, and all, > > Perhaps I am missing something again ... I remember someone > confusing me(or me confusing myself over their post?) when I > understood them to say a few months back (something like) "working in > an abattoir as a slaughterer could be Right Livelihood". I > vehemently disagree and I've never figured out how it could be > so ... but assume I missed something abhidhammically deep and > meaningfull as no-one else seemed perturbed. > My objection starts with the choice of occupation. I assume even with > 'no-control' there is the possibility of a thoughtful choice for most > people. Of course, when there are certain conditions like > conscription, or starvation, there is little choice. I am sure > soldiers are mentioned by the Buddha in the suttas ... perhaps his > opinion is worth considering? > > metta and peace, > Christine 24231 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Fri Aug 15, 2003 9:44pm Subject: RE: [dsg] HI Sanaya, Welcome to the group. I think you will find a friendly bunch here who come from all walk of life in search of the same thing. I hope you find many useful info here. kom > -----Original Message----- > From: susan macqueen [mailto:sues.greenbank@v...] > Sent: Friday, August 15, 2003 7:21 AM > To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [dsg] > > > Hello, I have just joined the group it looks very interesting. I > am very new to Buddhism and at the moment I am reading literature > on this and felt it would be beneficial to me to discuss, or read > ongoing discussions. I'm very much looking forward to getting to > know people in this group and of course learning what I can about > Buddhist practises and making this a part of my everyday. > > Sanaya > 24232 From: rjkjp1 Date: Fri Aug 15, 2003 9:46pm Subject: Re: [dsg] duty of soldiers --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Kom Tukovinit" wrote: > > > It is harder to see how somebody who slaughters regularly can be said to > have a right livelihood, but on the other hand, even for a slaughterer, > there might be kusala states alternating at different moments too. > > kom > _________ Dear Kom, As you say, different moments. The Burmese Abhidhamma teacher Ledi sayadaw explains: ""Loss of Opportunity to Attain the Seed of Vijja(wisdom) Through Ignorance of the Value of the Present Times Some teachers, who are aware only of the existence of direct and unequivocal statements in the Pali Texts regarding the order of practice of the seven visuddhi (purifications), but who take no account of the value of the present times, say that in the practices of samatha and vipassana (calm and insight) no results can be achieved unless sila-visuddhi (purification of virtue) is first fulfilled, whatever be the intensity of the effort. Some of the uninformed ordinary folk are beguiled by such statements. Thus has dhammantaraya (danger to the Dhamma) occurred. Even in the case of hunters and fishermen, it should not be said that they should not practise samatha vipassana (calm and insight) manasikara (advertence of mind towards calm and insight) unless they discard their avocations. One who says so causes dhammantaraya (danger to the Dhamma). Hunters and fishermen should, on the other hand, be encouraged to contemplate the noble qualities of the Buddha, the Dhamma, and the Sangha. They should be induced to contemplate, as is in their power, the characteristic of loathsomeness in one's body. They should be urged to contemplate the liability of oneself and all creatures to death. I have come across the case of a leading fisherman who, as a result of such encouragement, could repeat fluently from memory the Pali Text and'nissaya' (word for word translation) of the Abhidhammatha Sangaha, and the Paccaya Niddesa of the Patthana (Book of Relations), while still following the profession of a fisherman. These accomplishments constitute very good foundations for the acquisition of vijja (knowledge). At the present time, whenever I meet my dayaka upasakas (lay disciples who contribute to a bhikkhu's upkeep), I tell them, in the true tradition of a bhikkhu, that even though they are hunters and fishermen by profession, they should be ever mindful of the noble qualities of the Three Jewels and three characteristics of existence. To be mindful of the noble qualities of the ti-ratana (Triple Gem) constitutes the seed of carana. To be mindful of the three characteristics of existence constitutes the seed of vijja. They should be helped towards better understanding, should they be in difficulties. """ RobertK 24233 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Fri Aug 15, 2003 10:03pm Subject: RE: [dsg] duty of soldiers Dear Robert, > -----Original Message----- > From: rjkjp1 [mailto:rjkjp1@y...] > Sent: Friday, August 15, 2003 9:47 PM > To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com > Subject: Re: [dsg] duty of soldiers > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Kom Tukovinit" > wrote: ... > Even in the case of hunters and fishermen, it should not be said > that they should not practise samatha vipassana (calm and insight) > manasikara (advertence of mind towards calm and insight) unless they > discard their avocations. One who says so causes dhammantaraya > (danger to the Dhamma). Hunters and fishermen should, on the other > hand, be encouraged to contemplate the noble qualities of the > Buddha, the Dhamma, and the Sangha. They should be induced to > contemplate, as is in their power, the characteristic of > loathsomeness in one's body. They should be urged to contemplate the > liability of oneself and all creatures to death. I have come across > the case of a leading fisherman who, as a result of such > encouragement, could repeat fluently from memory the Pali Text > and'nissaya' (word for word translation) of the Abhidhammatha > Sangaha, and the Paccaya Niddesa of the Patthana (Book of > Relations), while still following the profession of a fisherman. > These accomplishments constitute very good foundations for the > acquisition of vijja (knowledge). > At the present time, whenever I meet my dayaka upasakas (lay > disciples who contribute to a bhikkhu's upkeep), I tell them, in the > true tradition of a bhikkhu, that even though they are hunters and > fishermen by profession, they should be ever mindful of the noble > qualities of the Three Jewels and three characteristics of > existence. To be mindful of the noble qualities of the ti-ratana > (Triple Gem) constitutes the seed of carana. To be mindful of the > three characteristics of existence constitutes the seed of vijja. > They should be helped towards better understanding, should they be > in difficulties. """ > RobertK > Great stuffs! kom 24234 From: kenhowardau Date: Sat Aug 16, 2003 0:51am Subject: [dsg] Re: Meditation practice as taught by Sidharttha Gotama himself Hi, Howard (and Sarah), -------------- > Did you have a poor experience at a Goenka > retreat, Ken? I'd be interested in reading what that > was. -------------- I did the 10-day course in 1991 and it was memorable in many ways; there were intense highs and intense lows. It was the sort of experience that most people need in order to know something different from their humdrum existences. But this sort of therapy is not necessarily what the Buddha taught. I might recount one incident that I'd like your comments on: At the beginning, I was overawed by Goenka -- he was brilliant, witty and charismatic -- but later, I began to hate him. Just as this undeserved, seething hatred was at its highest, I heard his recorded message saying; "Well, this is the morning of day five and a lot of you will be having some intensely negative thoughts -- mostly directed at me." There was nervous laughter in the room as he explained how these feelings came about and I assumed everyone, like me, was identifying with what he said. But on day ten, when we were allowed to talk, none of the others I spoke to seemed to remember the incident; nor did they particularly remember any intense hatred. Does this ring any bells with you? ------------- > Most of the favorable changes in me (there have > been some! ;-) I can fairly attribute to my attending a > 10-day Goenka retreat, > > > > I would > be *quite* opposed to describing it in the negative > terms that you employ. ---------------- Thinking about this has brought back a lot of memories. I've just written, and then deleted, a long paragraph which was mostly negative and unnecessary. I will just say that the Vipassana Centre that I attended, and briefly dropped in on several years later, was not a friendly place. To be fair, they must deal with a lot of disturbed people who make trouble and have to be asked to leave, but the place lacked the open, trusting friendliness that I associate with Dhamma groups. K: >> After this was brought to my attention, I decided >> that the totally misleading idea of control was >> inseparable from all of [then] my meditation >> practices. D'oh! That should have read, . . "all of my [then] meditation practices." (By the way; Sarah, now that you have found the square brackets on your keyboard, I look forward to seeing how they are properly used :-) ) Kind regards, Ken H 24235 From: kenhowardau Date: Sat Aug 16, 2003 0:56am Subject: [dsg] Re: Control Ken O, I agree that control and self are inseparable. Furthermore, I am tempted to think that they are embodied in concepts. The objects (concepts), I conceive as I look around my room are abiding entities. They were here yesterday and will be here tomorrow. They are self and they exercise control over time. While we are thinking in concepts, it is impossible to understand realities. But of course, even Arahants think in concepts, so there goes my theory :-) Kind regards, Ken H --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Kenneth Ong wrote: > Hi Howard > > If there is a self involved in control, then it is non existent at > all as in the first place where is self to be found. Control needs a > self to direct If there is no self, where is there control. So > there is no control as there is no self in the first place. All are > just paramatthas dhammas and conditions. > > > 24236 From: kenhowardau Date: Sat Aug 16, 2003 1:03am Subject: Re: [dsg] duty of soldiers Hi Christine, When I first joined our local Dhamma group, I was theoretically engaged in wrong livelihood. I was breeding and selling beef cattle. (!!!) The group's founding members (and our good friends), Klaas, Reg and Andrew, are, as you know, fierce defenders of all creatures great and small. I sensed their disapproval and secretly felt misunderstood. While they were sitting in their city office towers, I was molly- coddling a herd of very contented cows and steers. This involved scratching behind their ears, feeding them treats, protecting them from predators and parasites, maintaining the best pastures in the district -- day in, day out. Admittedly, there was one day in every year when some had to go to the abattoir. I accompanied them in the carrier's truck to make sure they were unloaded humanely but from there, they were on their own. I suffered terribly but not as much as they did. My point is, while I was engaged in so-called "wrong livelihood" there were many moments of kindness. They might not have been moments of right livelihood, but they weren't wrong livelihood either :-) Kind regards, Ken H --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Hello Victor, and all, > > Perhaps I am missing something again ... I remember someone > confusing me(or me confusing myself over their post?) when I > understood them to say a few months back (something like) "working in > an abattoir as a slaughterer could be Right Livelihood". I > vehemently disagree and I've never figured out how it could be > so ... but assume I missed something abhidhammically deep and > meaningfull as no-one else seemed perturbed. > My objection starts with the choice of occupation. 24237 From: Sarah Date: Sat Aug 16, 2003 2:54am Subject: Welcome Sanaya Hi Sanaya (& Kom), Like Kom, let me welcome you here to DSG. Thanks for your nice intro note. Anyone new to Buddhism is most welcome and no questions or answers are too simple for us here;-) I’d be glad to hear what literature you are reading and finding useful and any other particular interests. We’d also like to get to know you. Perhaps you could let us know where you live and anything else about what you feel is beneficial about Buddhism. The rest of us are scattered all over the world. I’m in Hong Kong (but originally from England) and Kom’s in California (originally from Thailand). You may find it useful to look at Useful Posts and go down to “new to the list and new to dhamma’ and also ‘Abhidhamma for beginners’. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/Useful_Posts Also, there’s a simple Pali glossary here: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/Glossary_of_pali_terms The list is pretty active at the moment, so you may well wish to skip all complicated/technical posts for the time being. Also, if any newcomers find they are getting too much mail, you may wish to change your mail setting to ‘no mail’ (and look at the homepage) or get it in ‘digest’ form, which means one long mail a day only. Details can be found under ‘mail delivery’ here: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/ Metta, Sarah p.s Let us know if you prefer to be addressed as Sanaya or Susan. ======= --- Kom Tukovinit wrote: > Welcome to the group. I think you will find a friendly bunch here who > come > from all walk of life in search of the same thing. I hope you find many > useful info here. Sanaya: > > Hello, I have just joined the group it looks very interesting. I > > am very new to Buddhism and at the moment I am reading literature > > on this and felt it would be beneficial to me to discuss, or read > > ongoing discussions. I'm very much looking forward to getting to > > know people in this group and of course learning what I can about > > Buddhist practises and making this a part of my everyday. 24238 From: Sarah Date: Sat Aug 16, 2003 2:59am Subject: Weclcome (was: duty of soldiers) Hi Elias, Welcome here too! --- elias broman wrote: > i'm not here to have fun, (or to seek suffering) > i'm here to find truth. > > thinking this way, > one reflects on the truth, > living for it, and seeking for it. .... I hope you’ll continue to reflect on ‘the truth’ with us and to share your understanding of it from the Dhamma. Please also share a little more about yourself - where you live and your particular interest in the Buddha’s truth for example. Best wishes, Sarah ====== 24239 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sat Aug 16, 2003 3:36am Subject: Re: [dsg] duty of soldiers Dear KenH, RobK, Icaro, Kom and all, Ken, I understand what you are saying - did you continue to breed and fatten cows for market and do you raise cattle for slaughter now? I'm know that you don't. Similarly, before I had heard the Dhamma, I too sent some bull calves for slaughter, raised fowls for the table, and it all seemed quite normal - not now though. I try unsuccessfully not to hear in memory the sounds of the cow and calf calling frantically to each other as the truck drove off - or the shrieks of the chickens being caught and carried to the chopping block. I too treated them all with kindness until it came time to treat them otherwise. But it is a false kindness, as the intention all along was to kill them or have them killed. How would we feel about the 'kindness' of someone we grew to trust, who, all along intended our families deaths even while laughing and chatting with us? I take the term Livelihood to be used by the Buddha in the everyday sense ... an actual occupation. I don't see that he meant it as a millisecond. I understand Ledi Sayadaw to be urging the use of skillful means when teaching dhamma to people already in the hunting and fishing professions (and probably so for generations). A direct criticism could turn people away from the Dhamma when they have little other choice of Livelihood. But Ledi Sayadaw does not say that hunting and fishing are acceptable professions to plan to enter in some future time - he is speaking of those already engaged in such activities when a Bhikkhu comes across them. "Samma ajiva -- Right livelihood miccha ajivam pahaya -- giving up wrong livelihood, samma ajivena jivitam kappeti -- one earns one's living by a right form of livelihood." From Bhikkhu Bodhi's Noble Eightfold Path: "Right Livelihood (samma ajiva). Right livelihood is concerned with ensuring that one earns one's living in a righteous way. For a lay disciple the Buddha teaches that wealth should be gained in accordance with certain standards. One should acquire it only by legal means, not illegally; one should acquire it peacefully, without coercion or violence; one should acquire it honestly, not by trickery or deceit; and one should acquire it in ways which do not entail harm and suffering for others. The Buddha mentions five specific kinds of livelihood which bring harm to others and are therefore to be avoided: dealing in weapons, in living beings (including raising animals for slaughter as well as slave trade and prostitution), in meat production and butchery, in poisons, and in intoxicants (AN 5:177). He further names several dishonest means of gaining wealth which fall under wrong livelihood: practising deceit, treachery, soothsaying, trickery, and usury (MN 117). Obviously any occupation that requires violation of right speech and right action is a wrong form of livelihood, but other occupations, such as selling weapons or intoxicants, may not violate those factors and yet be wrong because of their consequences for others." http://www.vipassana.com/resources/8fp0.php metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > Hi Christine, > > When I first joined our local Dhamma group, I was > theoretically engaged in wrong livelihood. I was > breeding and selling beef cattle. (!!!) > > The group's founding members (and our good friends), > Klaas, Reg and Andrew, are, as you know, fierce defenders > of all creatures great and small. I sensed their > disapproval and secretly felt misunderstood. While they > were sitting in their city office towers, I was molly- > coddling a herd of very contented cows and steers. This > involved scratching behind their ears, feeding them > treats, protecting them from predators and parasites, > maintaining the best pastures in the district -- day in, > day out. Admittedly, there was one day in every year > when some had to go to the abattoir. I accompanied them > in the carrier's truck to make sure they were unloaded > humanely but from there, they were on their own. I > suffered terribly but not as much as they did. > > My point is, while I was engaged in so-called "wrong > livelihood" there were many moments of kindness. They > might not have been moments of right livelihood, but they > weren't wrong livelihood either :-) > > Kind regards, > Ken H 24240 From: Date: Sat Aug 16, 2003 0:27am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Meditation practice as taught by Sidharttha Gotama himself Hi, Ken - In a message dated 8/16/03 3:52:02 AM Eastern Daylight Time, kenhowardau@y... writes: > Hi, Howard (and Sarah), > > -------------- > > Did you have a poor experience at a Goenka > >retreat, Ken? I'd be interested in reading what that > >was. > -------------- > > I did the 10-day course in 1991 and it was memorable in > many ways; there were intense highs and intense lows. It > was the sort of experience that most people need in order > to know something different from their humdrum > existences. But this sort of therapy is not necessarily > what the Buddha taught. > ------------------------------------------------- Howard: I guess that's rather hard to say. I would say that the intention is to follow the Buddha's Dhamma, but of course the best of intentions still do allow for error. -------------------------------------------------- > > I might recount one incident that I'd like your comments > on: At the beginning, I was overawed by Goenka -- he was > brilliant, witty and charismatic -- but later, I began to > hate him. Just as this undeserved, seething hatred was > at its highest, I heard his recorded message saying; > "Well, this is the morning of day five and a lot of you > will be having some intensely negative thoughts -- mostly > directed at me." > > There was nervous laughter in the room as he explained > how these feelings came about and I assumed everyone, > like me, was identifying with what he said. But on day > ten, when we were allowed to talk, none of the others I > spoke to seemed to remember the incident; nor did they > particularly remember any intense hatred. Does this ring > any bells with you? > ------------------------------------------------ Howard: I don't recall comments about negative feelings towards Goenka. In my case, while I found him to be pleasant, knowledgeable,and articulate (on the videotape) I never fell in love with the man nor, on the other hand, did I develop the slightest aversion towards him. He was just someone teaching an approach which I gave myself over to for the purpose of a fair trial. It happens that the husband-wife team of "Assistant Instructors" running the course was excellent, kind, and helpful. It also happens that internal conditions were apparently in place for me to benefit optimally from this training at that time. How such a retreat would have served me on another occasion I cannot say. ----------------------------------------------------- > > ------------- > > Most of the favorable changes in me (there have > >been some! ;-) I can fairly attribute to my attending a > >10-day Goenka retreat, > > > > > > > > I would > >be *quite* opposed to describing it in the negative > >terms that you employ. > ---------------- > > Thinking about this has brought back a lot of memories. > I've just written, and then deleted, a long paragraph > which was mostly negative and unnecessary. I will just > say that the Vipassana Centre that I attended, and > briefly dropped in on several years later, was not a > friendly place. To be fair, they must deal with a lot of > disturbed people who make trouble and have to be asked to > leave, but the place lacked the open, trusting > friendliness that I associate with Dhamma groups. > ---------------------------------------------------------- Howard: A lesson, I suppose, in the importance of differences in supporting conditions. I attended the retreat at the Massachusetts "Dhamma Dhara" center in the United States. Everybody was lovely, cooperative, supportive, and serious but in a yielding an understanding way. I did find that there was a point during the retreat in which *enormous* anxiety arose in me, but following suggestions given by the Assistant Teachers I was able to achieve significant increased calm, through a brief modification of the basic technique, and once past that hump, things settled down, and progress was made. I think that a number of fortuitous conditions had come together in my case to make my experience very worthhile. I'm really sorry that such was not the case for you. But I would suppose that none of us is in a position to consistently figure out what events are ultimately really good or really not so good for ourselves in the long run. It may be that this was what was "right" for me at that time, but something else was needed for you. Your contact with Khun Sujin and her students may be just what you "needed", and perhaps had your Goenka experience seemed more positive, the direction of your Dhammic life might have been different and possibly worse for you. We just can't know - the web of kamma and of causes and conditions in general is far too complex for us to discern clearly enough. ---------------------------------------------- > > K: > >> After this was brought to my attention, I decided > >>that the totally misleading idea of control was > >>inseparable from all of [then] my meditation > >>practices. > > D'oh! That should have read, . . "all of my [then] > meditation practices." (By the way; Sarah, now that you > have found the square brackets on your keyboard, I look > forward to seeing how they are properly used :-) ) > > Kind regards, > Ken H > ========================= With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 24241 From: Date: Sat Aug 16, 2003 0:56am Subject: Re: [dsg] duty of soldiers Hi, Christine (and Icaro, and all) - In a message dated 8/16/03 6:37:29 AM Eastern Daylight Time, cforsyth@v... writes: > I take the term Livelihood to be used by the Buddha in the everyday > sense ... an actual occupation. I don't see that he meant it as a > millisecond. I understand Ledi Sayadaw to be urging the use of > skillful means when teaching dhamma to people already in the hunting > and fishing professions (and probably so for generations). A direct > criticism could turn people away from the Dhamma when they have > little other choice of Livelihood. But Ledi Sayadaw does not say > that hunting and fishing are acceptable professions to plan to enter > in some future time - he is speaking of those already engaged in such > activities when a Bhikkhu comes across them. > ======================== I very much agree with you, Christine. To use an extreme, perhaps a quite silly example, I'm sure that even Adolph Hitler had many kusala moments! To me, the "Livelihood" of "Right Livelihood" refers to one's occupation, a conventional phenomenon, and not to mind-moments or features of them. What I would also say, however, is that human beings are complex and are engaged in a huge web of activities, their livelihood being an important one, but just one. We are all off the mark in many respects, and there is much for which each of us needs to "foregive" ourself. I, myself, would resist the military life as a career, and I would be reluctant to ever use more force than is needed for protection of innocents and for self-defense, but I am not a pacifist, and I do *not* rule out the use of defensive force in my own life or in society. With regard to soldiering, how many of us would happily support unilaterally disbanding our nation's standing army, and then hoping for the best? Frankly, when it really comes down to it, I suspect that close to none of us would, and considering what the consequences of such a disbanding would be, quite possibly none of us *should*. So, to the extent that we support a defensive military, or even to the extent that we do not oppose it's existence, if the military life is wrong livelihood, then we support wrong livelihood. So, the matter is not a simple, cut and dried one, and we need to keep Right Intention in mind along with Right Livelihood, I think. We need to take our best shot at "doing the right thing," but we are not, any of us, going attain perfection of action at this stage. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 24242 From: Sarah Date: Sat Aug 16, 2003 5:58am Subject: RE: [dsg] duty of soldiers Hi Eagle, Let me also belatedly welcome you here. I’m glad to read your contributions. --- eaglenarius wrote: > Eaglenarius Timotius is my real name, though I cannot fly and I don't > have > wings. .... No problem - Icaro/Icarus can’t either;-) Thank you also for initially telling us a little about yourself. I noticed that you live near Jakarta and sincerely hope there are no more terrorist attacks there. We have a few other fairly quiet members from Indonesia. I hope you can encourage them with your contributions;-) Please don’t think you need to share anything brilliant (as you mentioned before) - we all lack knowledge and just try to support and encourage each other as friends. Sometimes too, the simplest questions and comments are the best. Actually, I can tell from your comments that you are quite familiar with the Dhamma and just being modest, I think. .... > I know that we cannot be perfect in this world. There is always two > opposite > points of view in every action. However in term of Buddhism, I'm very > sure > that killing is not a kusala kamma, though in the name of country duty > or > nationality. In every killing, there will be always bad consequences, > whether he is a soldier or a civilians. I just feel guilty not to stop a > friend from doing akusala kamma, it will be more fruitful to advise than > support the future akusala kamma. Please, don't misunderstand. ..... I’m appreciating all the comments including yours. No need to feel guilty (more akusala) as we often cannot prevent even our own akusala kamma, let alone another’s. We can try to help and advise if asked and if it’s not appreciated, sometimes it’s just the time for equanimity, don’t you think? Look forward to hearing more from you. In the other notes, I forgot to mention that the posts can also be read, searched or a thread followed here: http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/ Metta, Sarah ======================================================= 24243 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Aug 16, 2003 8:01am Subject: Re: [dsg] concentration Larry My apologies for not getting back to you sooner. I did not have a chance to write anything until this evening. Your post covers a lot of ground -- I hope I can say something on most of it! --- LBIDD@w... wrote: > Hi Jon, ... L: The way I see it, vitakka and vicara is a crude form of concentration. My reasoning is that "jhana factor" = "jhana characteristic" and, as jhana factor, vitakka and vicara get the ball rolling, so to speak. Experientially, whenever I had something that seemed like an insight it was preceded by vitakka and vicara. J: Jhana is the culmination of tranquillity development (samatha bhavana). As I understand it, jhana factors have no particular relevance to tranquillity development until one approaches jhana, in other words, at levels of a high degree of absorption. We should not overestimate our present level of development. Some are tempted to look for confirmation of their experiences in the Visuddhi-Magga. We should realise that we are not yet on page 1 as far as that text is concerned ;-). See the concentration section beginning at Vism III, esp. at par. 27, 28 and 29. The text assumes that the practitioner has already severed the 10 impediments, namely, a home, relatives, possessions, students/subordinate, responsibilities, travel, colleagues and family, illness, formal study of the teachings, and attainments; and that is just for starters. Some people think that what were necessary conditions in those days do not apply now, that what could only be achieved with extreme difficulty then is within anyone's grasp today. The ancient texts tell us the opposite is the case. As regards the jhana factors and insight development (vipassana bhavana), and I do not recall seeing any connection being made between the two in the materials I have studied. Have you read anything on this yourself? L: Also there are many subtle benefits to the practice of concentration not aimed at jhana. This necessitates the wilful revisting of one object, the breath for example. I think it might actually be a way of cultivating the basic matrix of kusala citta and cetasika. J: By 'practice of concentration' here I think you refer to tranquillity development (samatha bhavana). You characterise it as 'the wilful revisiting of one object'. I wonder if that is an accurate description of tranquillity development. For example, included among the 40 objects of samatha bhavana is the recollection of the qualities of the Buddha and the recollection of the Dhamma. How do you see samatha bhavana with these objects as fitting into the 'wilful revisiting of one object' model? L: There seems to be a general complaint about the usefulness of this procedure [concentration on the breath]. My only response is that it seems to provide a subtle salutary influence and a certain amount of clarity. And "usefulness", i.e., "insight", is little more than conceptual, most of the time, in the ordinary sense of cultivating right view. J: There is not (and I don't think there ever has been) any complaint from me about the usefulness of tranquillity development/samatha bhavana per se. I think our differences are as to what it is or how it is developed (same question), and its relevance to insight (but that's another subject, not under discussion here ;-)). Regarding what tranquillity development is and how it's developed, then. It's of course true that one form of tranquillity development given in the texts is mindfulness of breathing. However, it's quite another thing to say that concentration on the breath constitutes samatha bhavana. I think you can see there's quite a difference between these 2 statements. For one thing, the fact of there being concentration on an object does not, in and of itself, connote anything in the nature of kusala, and this is so even if the purpose is a 'right' one (to have more kusala) and the object is a 'right' one (one of the 40 mentioned in the texts). I think some would say that focussing on the breath suppresses akusala. Well, it may *appear* to do so, but perhaps we are only too eager to infer this, given that this is the whole point of the exercise, and that there is a level of relative calm and seemingly an absence of akusala. Are we in fact familiar with the respective characteristics of kusala and akusala moments and therefore able to distinguish between the subtle forms of both when they arise? Again, we mostly tend to *infer* kusala from the nature of the act being done, or from the absence of obvious akusala, or from the special nature of the experience (enlightening moments), rather than by having direct knowledge of the characteristic of a moment of kusala as distinct from the characteristic of a moment of akusala. Let me ask you, for example, what exactly you see as being the kusala involved in focussing on the breath. L: What is your understanding of concentration as the proximate cause of panna? Is this concentration no different than ekagatta cetasika that arises with every consciousness? Why not say attention (manasikara) is the proximate cause of panna? J: To my understanding, the concentration that is the proximate cause of panna is the concentration that has been already developed at previous moments of consciousness accompanied by panna and that will arise again together with the next such moment. These moments of consciousness are mundane path moments, and the factors arising with the consciousness (e.g., concentration, energy, panna) are in a class of their own, when compared to their 'ordinary moment' counterparts. These are some of my thoughts. Any comments? Jon 24244 From: suzakico Date: Sat Aug 16, 2003 11:11am Subject: Re: [dsg] Thank you, Nina!!! -2 -a Thai and Pali are very close, and in this way I could learn all these terms. But becoming used to these terms does not mean experiencing all the different cittas. A. Sujin explained that intellectual understanding is a foundation for awareness that can arise later on. She stressed foundation knowledge, knowledge of the details of cittas, of their different characteristics, of cetasikas (mental factors), such as feeling, akusala cetasikas, beautiful cetasikas and rupas. Indeed, as we read in the suttas, listening, considering are most important conditions for the arising of satipatthana, sati and panna that directly realize characteristics of nama and rupa. ((First, having the intellectual training like this, and later realizing the point upon actual experience may enrich, and anchor the point of learning to enhance the condition for detached observation. So, I take this is one method to get to that state of detachment – which is the main objective as mentioned before. However, as anything else, this approach may have weakness, possibly playing the game of naming and cross referencing their experiences to sutta, etc. Still, this practice may make people to grow as they can exchange the views and experiential learning/wisdom along the way as may be taking place in this dhamma study group.)) ((Another point that I see positive in naming citta, etc., is that it gives the practitioner the sense of detachment so that he can name what is going on in the moment. So, this may put him to be in the seat of observer as opposed to have the false sense of self. He then is not as occupied in the problem at hand, having developed this skill to be "objective' like a scientist. Still, once skill is developed, it may be ok to throw away the raft/theory instead of carrying it. I imagine, the master of this skill may be the owner of the skill in his body/unconsciousness. So, it becomes autonomous – like an art.)) 24245 From: icaro franca Date: Sat Aug 16, 2003 11:24am Subject: Re: [dsg] duty of soldiers Dear Chris: Christine: "Ken, I understand what you are saying - did you > continue to breed and > fatten cows for market and do you raise cattle for > slaughter now? > I'm know that you don't. Similarly, before I had > heard the Dhamma, I > too sent some bull calves for slaughter, raised > fowls for the table, > and it all seemed quite normal - not now though." ---------------------------------------------------- This matter about slaughtering of Bulls, Cows, fowls, &c, for food and pleasure has some historical and doctrinal interest on Buddhism. At the Jatakas we read that fabulous, wonderful stories about the past of Buddha: he was a bird at the forest that sacrifies himself to feed a lost and hunger prince, and so on. At the Vinaya we find that the Bhikku ought to feed himself with the alms that are freely given to him, not consuming food that are especially made for this. So, there´s not a direct prohibition to consume bulls, cows, calves, &c, for food: he must accept what is given to him whatever it can be... But... as a good Abhidhamma reader, you know that all these deals with reality are Kusala or Akusala (or, more focused at this question, Hetu and Ahetu - "conditioned" and "no-conditioned"). If there are abattoirs that kill poor animals for food, it´s because there is a manifold of causes and conditions that arises this kind of places. Only after some time, with the growth of conscience at human beings, we reach the Asoka´s decree that forbids the consume of animal´s flesh for food... ---------------------------------------------------- Chris: " I > try > unsuccessfully not to hear in memory the sounds of > the cow and calf > calling frantically to each other as the truck drove > off - or the > shrieks of the chickens being caught and carried to > the chopping > block. I too treated them all with kindness until it > came time to > treat them otherwise. But it is a false kindness, as > the intention > all along was to kill them or have them killed. How > would we feel > about the 'kindness' of someone we grew to trust, > who, all along > intended our families deaths even while laughing and > chatting with us?" ------------------------------------------------------ A very serious question. The conscience of suffering at other beings is not a good feeling... but at the practical side can arise good thoughts! Since Buddhism don´t support the Hindu´s social systems of cases, it doesn´t stress others about social duties - only Bhikkus are obliged to follow rules. As a layperson, a sincere desire to follow the five precepts and the purification of mind can free your brain of many of these stumbling-blocks of conscience! ----------------------------------------------------- Chris: " I take the term Livelihood to be used by the Buddha > in the everyday > sense ... an actual occupation. I don't see that he > meant it as a > millisecond. I understand Ledi Sayadaw to be > urging the use of > skillful means when teaching dhamma to people > already in the hunting > and fishing professions (and probably so for > generations). A direct > criticism could turn people away from the Dhamma > when they have > little other choice of Livelihood. But Ledi Sayadaw > does not say > that hunting and fishing are acceptable professions > to plan to enter > in some future time - he is speaking of those > already engaged in such > activities when a Bhikkhu comes across them." ----------------------------------------------------- The Zen has a saying ( the tenth plate of the "Taming of Bull"): "...making fishmongers and butchers Buddhas!". This reveals the low estimation of these activities... but it´s not impossible even to these people to reach Buddhahood! Metta, Ícaro > > "Samma ajiva -- Right livelihood > miccha ajivam pahaya -- giving up wrong livelihood, > samma ajivena jivitam kappeti -- one earns one's > living by a right > form of livelihood." > From Bhikkhu Bodhi's Noble Eightfold Path: "Right > Livelihood (samma > ajiva). Right livelihood is concerned with > ensuring that one earns > one's living in a righteous way. For a lay disciple > the Buddha > teaches that wealth should be gained in accordance > with certain > standards. One should acquire it only by legal > means, not illegally; > one should acquire it peacefully, without coercion > or violence; one > should acquire it honestly, not by trickery or > deceit; and one should > acquire it in ways which do not entail harm and > suffering for others. > The Buddha mentions five specific kinds of > livelihood which bring > harm to others and are therefore to be avoided: > dealing in weapons, > in living beings (including raising animals for > slaughter as well as > slave trade and prostitution), in meat production > and butchery, in > poisons, and in intoxicants (AN 5:177). He further > names several > dishonest means of gaining wealth which fall under > wrong livelihood: > practising deceit, treachery, soothsaying, trickery, > and usury (MN > 117). Obviously any occupation that requires > violation of right > speech and right action is a wrong form of > livelihood, but other > occupations, such as selling weapons or intoxicants, > may not violate > those factors and yet be wrong because of their > consequences for > others." > http://www.vipassana.com/resources/8fp0.php > > metta and peace, > Christine > ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, > "kenhowardau" > wrote: > > Hi Christine, > > > > When I first joined our local Dhamma group, I was > > theoretically engaged in wrong livelihood. I was > > breeding and selling beef cattle. (!!!) > > > > The group's founding members (and our good > friends), > > Klaas, Reg and Andrew, are, as you know, fierce > defenders > > of all creatures great and small. I sensed their > > disapproval and secretly felt misunderstood. > While they > > were sitting in their city office towers, I was > molly- > > coddling a herd of very contented cows and steers. > This > > involved scratching behind their ears, feeding > them > > treats, protecting them from predators and > parasites, > > maintaining the best pastures in the district -- > day in, > > day out. Admittedly, there was one day in every > year > > when some had to go to the abattoir. I > accompanied them > > in the carrier's truck to make sure they were > unloaded > > humanely but from there, they were on their own. > I > > suffered terribly but not as much as they did. > > > > My point is, while I was engaged in so-called > "wrong > > livelihood" there were many moments of kindness. > They > > might not have been moments of right livelihood, > but they > > weren't wrong livelihood either :-) > > > > Kind regards, > > Ken H > ===== Seize the time, there´s only minutes left to zero Just got a little taste, I gotta get some more, Just me and you 24246 From: Date: Sat Aug 16, 2003 11:46am Subject: Vism. XIV, 7 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) ch. XIV 7. What are its characteristic, function, manifestation and proximate cause? Understanding has the characteristic of penetrating the individual essenses of states. (3) Its function is to abolish the darkness of delusion, which conceals the individual essenses of states. It is manifested as non-delusion. Because of the words 'One who is concentrated knows and sees correctly' (A.v.3) its proximate cause is concentration. (3) 'A phenomenon's own essence (sako bhavo) or existing essence (samano va bhavo) is its individual essence (sabhava)' (Pm. 433). Cf. Ch. VIII, Note 68, where Pm. gives the definition from saha-bhava with essence). Vism. VIII, 245. One who wants to develop recollection of peace mentioned next to mindfulness of breathing (Ch.III,105) should go into solitary retreat and recollect the special qualities of nibbana, in other words, the stilling of all suffering, as follows: 'Bhikkhus, in so far as there are dhammas, whether formed or unformed, fading away is pronounced the best of them, that is to say, the disillusionment of vanity, the elimination of thirst, the abolition of reliance, the termination of the round, the destruction of craving, fading away, cessation, nibbana' (A.ii,34). 246. Herein "in so far" means as many as. "Dhammas" [means] individual essences. (68) .... Note 68. 'In such passages as "Dhammas that are concepts" (Dhs., p. 1;1308) even a non-entity (abhava) is thus called a "dhamma" since it is borne (dhariyati) and affirmed (avadhariyati) by knowledge. That kind of dhamma is excluded by his saying "Dhammas [means] individual essences". The act of becoming (bhavana), which constitutes existingness (vijjamanata) in the ultimate sense, is essence (bhava); it is with essence (saha bhavena), thus it is an individual essence (sabhava); the meaning is that it is possible (labbhamanarupa) in the true sense, in the ultimate sense. For these are called "dhammas (bearers)" because they bear (dharana) their own individual essences (sabhava), and they are called "individual essences" in the sense already explained' (Pm. 282; cf Ch. VII, n. 1 [Larry: this note explains the meaning of "dhamma", see Nina's recent posts]). In the Pitakas the word "sabhava" seems to appear only once (Ps.ii,178). It next appears in the Netti (p.79), the Milindapanha (pp.90,164,22,360). It is extensively used for exegetical purposes in the Visuddhimagga and main commentaries and likewise in the sub-commentaries. As has just been shown, it is narrower than dhamma (see also Ch. XXIII,n.18). It often roughly corresponds to "dhatu" (element--see e.g.DhsA.263) and to "lakkhana" (characteristic--see below), but less nearly to the vaguer and (in Pali) untechnical pakati (nature), or to "rasa" (function--see Ch.I,21). The Attasalini observes: 'It is the individual essence, or the generality, of such and such dhammas that is called their characteristic' (DhsA.63); on which the Mula Tika comments: 'The "individual essence" consisting in, say, hardness as that of earth, or touching as that of contact, is not common to all dhammas. The "generality" is the individual essence common to all consisting in impermanence, etc.; also in this context (i.e.Dhs.1) the characteristic of being profitable may be regarded as general because it is the individual essence common to all that is profitable; or alternatively it is their individual essence because it is not common to the unprofitable and indeterminate [kinds of consciousness]' (DhsAA.63). The individual essence of any formed dhamma is manifested in the three instants of its existence (atthita, vijjamanata), namely, ariing, presence (=ageing) and dissolution. It comes from nowhere and goes nowhere (Ch.XV,15) and is borne by the mind. Dhammas without individual essence (asabhava-dhamma) include the Attainment of Cessation (see Ch. XXIII,n.18) and some concepts. Space and time belong to the last mentioned. Of space (akasa) the Tika in the Majjima Nikaya says: 'Though time is determined by the kind of consciosness [e.g. as specified in the first paragraph of the Dhammasangani] and is non-existent (avijjamana) as to indivdual essence, yet as the non-entity (abhava) before and after the moment in which those [conascent and co-present] dhammas occur, it is called the "container 'adhikarana'"; it is perceived (symbolized) only as the state of a receptacle (adhara-bhava)' (DhsAA.62). Of nibbana (for which see Ch. XVI,64ff.), which has its own individual essence, the Mula Tika says: Nibbana is not like other dhammas; because of its extreme profundity it cannot be made an object of consciousness (alambitum) by one who has not realized it. That is why it has to be realized by Change-of lineage. It has profundity surpassing any individual essence belonging to the three periods of time' (Vbh.AA.38). 'Sabhava' has not the extreme vagueness of its parent 'bhava', which can mean anything between 'essence' (see e.g.DhsA.61) and '-ness' (e.g. 'natthi-bhava' = non-existingness -- Ch.X,35). This may be remembered when 'sabhava' is defined as above thus 'It is with essence (saha bhavena) thus it is individual essence (sabhava)' (Pm.282), and when it is again defined thus 'A dhamma's own essence or its existing essence (sako va bhavo samano va bhavo) is its individual essence (sabhava)' (Pm.433). "Sabhava' can also be the basis of a wrong view, if regarded as the sole efficient cause or condition of any formed thing (Ch.XVI,n.23). The Sanskrit equivalent, 'svabhava', had a great vogue and chequered history in philosohical discussions on the Indian mainland. This (unlike the word 'dhamma', which has many 'referents') is an instance in which it is of first importance to stick to one rendering. The word is purely an exegetical one; consequently vagueness is undesirable. 'Individual essence' has been chosen principally on etymological grounds, and the word 'essence' (an admittedly slippery customer) must be understood from the contexts in which it is used and not prejudged. Strictly it refers here to the triple moment of arising etc., of formed dhammas that can have such 'existence' in their own right and be experienced as such; and it refers to the realizability of nibbana. We are here in the somewhat magical territory of Ontology, a subject which is at present undergoing one of its periodical upheavals in Europe, this time in the hands of the Existentialists. Consequently it is important to approach the subject with an open mind. 24247 From: Date: Sat Aug 16, 2003 0:40pm Subject: Re: [dsg] concentration Jon: "These are some of my thoughts. Any comments?" Hi Jon, I can't think of anything constructive to say. It would just be quibbling. Thanks for your reply. Larry 24248 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Sat Aug 16, 2003 3:17pm Subject: Re: duty of soldiers Hi Christine and all, I think the following discourse is relevant: Samyutta Nikaya XLII.3 Yodhajiva Sutta To Yodhajiva (The Warrior) http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn42-003.html This is how I see it: There are always choices: choice that is wholesome, leading to good consequence and choice that is unwholesome, leading to bad consequence. Given particular situation, sometimes it is not easy to make a wholesome choice. Sometimes it is very easy to make unwholesome choice. A convenient choice is not necessarily wholesome, and a wholesome choice is not necessarily convenient. Peace, Victor 24249 From: Date: Sat Aug 16, 2003 5:43pm Subject: killing Hi Christine, As a matter of morbid academic curiosity I was wondering if there is a reason given in sutta or vinaya for not killing? Why is it evil and unwholesome according to the Buddha? One thing that troubles me about buddhism is that it doesn't seem (doctrinally) to hold life as inherently good. Larry 24250 From: Jim Anderson Date: Sat Aug 16, 2003 6:16pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism. XIV 3, subco. no conclusion Dear Sarah, --- nina van gorkom wrote: > > By way of the path seen by wisdom. > N: But here we have to think of Jim's remark: not seen, but shown. And > the > whole sentence has to be turned around. No conclusion yet about this > sentence. ..... > Greatly appreciating your extra translations and notes from the Tika. > I'm probably just confusing further (in which case pls ignore), but > let me add: > 1. ~Naa.namoli's glossary at back of Vism: > > dassana 1) seeing (the eye's function), 2) vision, 3) term for the > first path I think that would have made sense if 'dassita' were taken as 'seen' but the normal Pali word in this sense would have been 'di.t.tha-'. According to PED under 'dassati' (see end of article) and 'dassita' (shown, made visible), the latter is a causative past participle and is related to the causative verb 'dasseti'. The verbal root is 'dis' out of which many different forms are derived: pass- (vipassanaaa), dakkh-, dass-, da.t.th-. dit.t.h-, diss- which can be rather confusing. With 'shown' I wonder if the middle way is what 'magga' means here. Perhaps 'pa~n~naa' is the light showing the way through darkness of ignorance, like the guide showing the way through the forest, suggesting that vi~n~naa.na (the 4 kusalacittas dissociated from knowledge) is just following behind in the footsteps of the kusala cittas associated with pa~n~naa. I found one occurence of a translation of 'dassitamaggena' by Masefield in Peta Stories, p. 160: (Going) along the route described (by him . . .). Best wishes, Jim 24251 From: Date: Sat Aug 16, 2003 2:24pm Subject: Re: [dsg] killing Hi, Larry - In a message dated 8/16/03 8:44:46 PM Eastern Daylight Time, LBIDD@w... writes: > Hi Christine, > > As a matter of morbid academic curiosity I was wondering if there is a > reason given in sutta or vinaya for not killing? Why is it evil and > unwholesome according to the Buddha? One thing that troubles me about > buddhism is that it doesn't seem (doctrinally) to hold life as > inherently good. > > Larry > > ===================== Independent of suttas: Killing inflicts pain and suffering, both on the victim and on those who love or depend on the victim, and if the victim is a human being, he/she has been deprived of a precious human life, a rare opportunity. Also, as far as the mind of the killer is concerned, killing is an extreme aversive action, which automatically creates severe vipaka. This is how I see it. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 24252 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sat Aug 16, 2003 7:33pm Subject: Re: killing Hello Larry, Good question Larry. Apart from instructions in the Precepts and in the Dhammapada I think the reasons for not killing are mostly given in suttas explaining Kamma. e.g. MN135 Cula-kammavibhanga Sutta "a woman or man is a killer of living beings, brutal, bloody-handed, given to killing & slaying, showing no mercy to living beings. Through having adopted & carried out such actions, on the break-up of the body, after death, he/she reappears in the plane of deprivation, the bad destination, the lower realms, hell. If, on the break-up of the body, after death -- instead of reappearing in the plane of deprivation, the bad destination, the lower realms, hell -- he/she comes to the human state, then he/she is short-lived wherever reborn. This is the way leading to a short life: to be a killer of living beings, brutal, bloody-handed, given to killing & slaying, showing no mercy to living beings." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/majjhima/mn135.html The Sutta that Victor quoted in his last post from the Connected Discourses to Headmen had the Buddha telling a sobbing Yodhajiva the professional soldier "When, headman, a mercenary is one who strives and exerts himself in battle, his mind is already low, depraved, misdirected by the thought: 'Let these beings be slain, slaughtered, annihilated, destroyed, or exterminated.' If others then slay him and finish him off while he is striving and exerting himself in battle, then with the breakup of the body, after death, he is reborn in the 'Battle-Slain Hell'. But should he hold such a view as this: "When a mercenary strives and exerts himself etc... he is reborn in the company of the battle-slain devas - that is wrong view on his part. For a person with wrong view, I say, there is one of two destinations: either hell or the animal realm." I know we have had the discussion previously on disg [can't remember the thread name] about the relative demerits of killing various types of beings - larger ones and humans allegedly scoring greater kammic consequences because of the effort involved, (maybe in those days!) but I have read extracts from the Mahavamsa about the millions of Tamil deaths ordered by King Dutthagamani. He is said to have defeated King Elara, a Tamil King from South India, massacring millions of people, most of whom were Tamils. When plagued with a guilty conscience, he is calmed by "arhants, fully enlightened beings" who tell him not to worry as he only killed one and a half beings: "The one had come unto the (three) refuges, the other had taken unto himself the five precepts. Unbelievers and men of evil life were the rest, not to be esteemed more than beasts." So - it seems that, according to these 'arahants', killing is killing is killing ... (i.e. it's o.k. as long as they aren't buddhists.) Can arahants be wrong? Can scriptures be altered to insert the "Arahant Seal of Approval" when they weren't really arahants? And these sayings by Arahants have had dire consequences even in our own day in Lanka. I haven't killed another human being in this life - though I have killed many other sentient beings in my pre-Dhamma days - literally hundreds of mosquitos, flies, cockroaches, wasps, termites, fish, sea stingers, and spiders ... as well, there have been a few land snakes and cane toads, one sea snake, and many fish. Additionally, I have planned the deaths of some chickens and cows. I'd like to believe the "less of a kammic penalty for little things" (but what about the cow? It all makes one fearful for the future or prone to despair or doubt and disbelief - I'd like to offer the defense of not knowing any better - but, according to Buddhism, the 'penalties' seem to be worse for ignorance of the law than for deliberate wrongdoing. I don't think Buddhism holds life as good at all - I think it sees it as suffering (because of craving and impermanence) and dangerous ... (because of ignorance and delusion likely to lead to unending rebirths in various forms, creating evermore unhappy rebirths.) The idea is to get out of here. metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@w... wrote: > Hi Christine, > > As a matter of morbid academic curiosity I was wondering if there is a > reason given in sutta or vinaya for not killing? Why is it evil and > unwholesome according to the Buddha? One thing that troubles me about > buddhism is that it doesn't seem (doctrinally) to hold life as > inherently good. > > Larry 24253 From: Date: Sat Aug 16, 2003 7:37pm Subject: Re: [dsg] killing Hi Howard, I agree there are many good reasons for not killing. I was just wondering what reason, if any, the Buddha gave. A "precious human life" as a rare opportunity to progress along the path is a very basic value in Tibetan buddhism. I haven't run across that sentiment in theravada scriptures, but it could easily be there. Another curiosity: is love akusala (unwholesome)? Also: does kusala (wholesome) mean life-nourishing? Larry -------------------- Howard: Independent of suttas: Killing inflicts pain and suffering, both on the victim and on those who love or depend on the victim, and if the victim is a human being, he/she has been deprived of a precious human life, a rare opportunity. Also, as far as the mind of the killer is concerned, killing is an extreme aversive action, which automatically creates severe vipaka. This is how I see it. 24254 From: Date: Sat Aug 16, 2003 7:57pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: killing Hi Christine, Thanks for your thoughts and research. I agree with your findings ["I don't think Buddhism holds life as good at all"] but wish it weren't so. The threat of future bad rebirths just isn't very scary. Something interesting that just occurred to me: one could contrast the buddhist stance on soldiers with the "Bhagavadgita" which is the classic "soldier's duty" philosophy plus Vedanta spirituality. Also the Jains are very big on not taking life, but I don't know their reasoning. I don't recall any discussions between Mahavira or his disciples and the Buddha on this subject. Latty 24255 From: rjkjp1 Date: Sat Aug 16, 2003 8:41pm Subject: Rare human birth1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@w... wrote: > Hi Howard, > A "precious human life" > as a rare opportunity to progress along the path is a very basic value > in Tibetan buddhism. I haven't run across that sentiment in theravada > scriptures, but it could easily be there. ___________________---- > Dear Larry, http://www.vipassana.info/nina-abhi-10.htm Nina Van gorkom: "We read in the 'Discourse on Fools and the Wise' (Middle Length Sayings Ill, 129) that the Buddha, when he was staying in the Jeta Grove, in Anathapindika's monastery, spoke to the monks about the sufferings in hell and about the anguishes of animal birth. The Buddha said: Monks, it is like a man who might throw a yoke with one hole into the sea. An easterly wind might take it westwards, a westerly wind might take it eastwards, a northerly wind might take it southwards, a southerly wind might take it northwards. There might be a blind turtle there who came to the surface once in a hundred years. What do you think about this, monks? Could that blind turtle push his neck through that one hole in the yoke?' 'lf at all, revered sir, then only once in a very long while.' 'Sooner or later, monks, could the blind turtle push his neck through the one hole in the yoke; more difficult than that, do I say, monks, is human status once again for the fool who has gone to the Downfall. Monks, if some time or other once in a very long while that fool came to human status (again), he would be born into those families that are low: a family of low caste or a family of hunters or a family of bamboo-plaiters or a family of cartwrights or a family of refuse-scavengers, in such a family as is needy, without enough to drink or to eat, where a covering for the back is with difficulty obtained. Moreover, he would be illfavoured, ugly, dwarfish, sickly, blind or deformed or lame or paralysed; he would be unable to get food, drink, clothes, vehicles, garlands, scents and perfumes, bed, dwelling and lights; he would fare wrongly in body, wrongly in speech, wrongly in thought. Because he had fared wrongly in body, speech and thought, at the breaking up of the body after dying he would arise in the sorrowful ways, a bad bourn, the Downfall, Niraya Hell.... This, monks, is the fool's condition, completed in its entirety...'; """ The atthakattha to Brahmajala sutta notes that this applies especially to those with wrongview who are said to become rooted in the round of births and deaths. And we, of course, are those very beings who have been travelling this infinite samsara because of self-view and attachment to rule and ritual (sila-bata paramasa upadana), because of following wrong teaching and wrong practice. These have become habits which we may even strengthen in this life if real insight is not developed. Only by learning to see the present moment as it really is (nana dasana ) can we see through the conceptual world. The Udanaatthakatha (trans. masefield (p71,vol1, enlightenment chapter) "it is ignorance since it causes beings to dart among becomings and so on within samsara.., it is ignorance since it darts among those things which do not actually exist [i.e.men, women] and since it does not dart among those things that do exist [i.e.it cannot understand the khandas, paramattha dhammas]." This sasana (dispensation) of the Buddha is said (according to the ancient texts) to keep declining and it is already over half way. During this time right view and practice will continue to decrease and wrong views and practices will increase. RobertK Samyutta Nikaya: "Incalculable is the beginning, monks, of this faring on. The earliest point is not revealed of the running on, faring on of beings, cloaked in ignorance, tied by craving... "Long have you been caught as dacoits, or high-way men or adulterers; and through your being beheaded; verily more blood has flowed upon this long way than there is water in the four oceans." "There will come a time, when the mighty ocean will dry up, vanish, and be no more. There will come a time, when the mighty earth will be devoured by fire, perish, and be no more. But, yet there will be no end to the suffering of beings, who, obstucted by ignorance and ensnared by craving are hurrying and hastening through this round of rebirths." 24256 From: Date: Sat Aug 16, 2003 4:44pm Subject: Re: [dsg] killing Hi, Larry - In a message dated 8/16/03 10:38:23 PM Eastern Daylight Time, LBIDD@w... writes: > > Hi Howard, > > I agree there are many good reasons for not killing. I was just > wondering what reason, if any, the Buddha gave. A "precious human life" > as a rare opportunity to progress along the path is a very basic value > in Tibetan buddhism. I haven't run across that sentiment in theravada > scriptures, but it could easily be there. > > Another curiosity: is love akusala (unwholesome)? > > Also: does kusala (wholesome) mean life-nourishing? > > Larry > -------------------- ========================= There's that sutta about a sea tortoise which is bounced about in the ocean for aeons, and the likelihood of it's surfacing into the middle of floating harness or life preserver (I just can't recall exactly what the item is) is likened to the likelihood of a sentient being receiving birth in a precious human life. Viewing life as a human being as the best context for progress along the path is basic suttic Buddhism. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 24257 From: rjkjp1 Date: Sat Aug 16, 2003 8:49pm Subject: Disappearance of the Sasana Dear Group, The gradual disapperance of the Buddha sasana: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/buddhismforallmyanmar/message/61'Anagat avamsa') " The Sermon of the Chronicle to be " ""'How will it occur? After my decease there will first be five disappearances. What five? The disappearance of attainment (in the Dispensation), the disappearance of proper conduct, the disappearance of learning, the disappearance of the outward form, the disappearance of the relics. There will be these five disappearances. 'Here attainment means that for a thousand years only after the lord's complete Nirvana will monks be able to practice analytical insights. As time goes on and on these disciples of mine are nonreturners and once-returners and stream-winners. There will be no disappearance of attainment for these. But with the extinction of the last stream-winner's life, attainment will have disappeared. ..<.........> 'The disappearance of learning means that as long as there stand firm the texts with the commentaries pertaining to the word of the Buddha in the three Pitakas, for so long there will be no disappearance of learning. As time goes on and on there will be base-born kings, not Dhamma-men; (dharma) their ministers and so on will not be Dhamma-men, and consequently the inhabitants of the kingdom and so on will not be Dhamma-men. Because they are not Dhamma-men it will not rain properly. Therefore the crops will not flourish well, and in consequence the donors of requisites to the community of monks will not be able to give them the requisites. Not receiving the requisites the monks will not receive pupils. As time goes on and on learning will decay. In this decay the Great Patthana itself will decay first. In this decay also (there will be) Yamaka, Kathavatthu, Puggalapannati, Dhatukatha, Vibhanga and Dhammasangani. When the Abhidhamma Pitaka decays the Suttanta Pitaka will decay. When the Suttantas decay the Anguttara will decay first. When it decays the Samyutta Nikaya, the Majjhima Nikaya, the Digha Nikaya and the Khuddaka-Nikaya will decay. They will simply remember the jataka together with the Vinaya Pitaka. But only the conscientious (monks) will remember the Vinaya Pitaka. As time goes on and on, being unable to remember even the jataka, the Vessantara-jataka will decay first. When that decays the Apannaka-jataka will decay. When the jatakas decay they will remember only the Vinaya-Pitaka. As time goes on and on the Vinaya-Pitaka will decay. While a four-line stanza still continues to exist among men, there will not be a disappearance of learning. When a king who has faith has had a purse containing a thousand (coins) placed in a golden' casket on an elephant's back, and has had the drum (of proclamation) sounded in the city up to the second or third time, to the effect that: "Whoever knows a stanza uttered by the Buddha, let him take these thousand coins together with the royal elephant"-but yet finding no one knowing a four-line stanza, the purse containing the thousand (coins) must be taken back into the palace again-then will be the disappearance of learning. 'This, Sariputta, is the disappearance of learning. 'As time goes on and on each of the last monks, carrying his robe, bowl, and tooth-pick like Jain recluses, having taken a bottle-gourd and turned it into a bowl for alms food, will wander about with it in his forearms or hands or hanging from a piece of string. As time goes on and on, thinking: 'What's the good of this yellow robe?" and cutting off a small piece of one and sticking it on his nose or ear or ill his hair, he will wander about supporting wife and children by agriculture, trade and the like. .... As time goes on and on, thinking: "What's the good of this to us?", having thrown away the piece Of yellow robe, he will harry beasts and birds in the forest. At this time the outward form will have disappeared. 'This, Sariputta, is called the disappearance of the outward form. """ A short time indeed does the Buddha's sasana last. RobertK 24258 From: Date: Sat Aug 16, 2003 4:50pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Rare human birth1 Hi, Robert - This is a wonderful answer! Too bad I didn't wait a bit before posting my ill remembered "harness, life preserver, sea turtle" story! ;-)) With metta, Howard In a message dated 8/16/03 11:42:37 PM Eastern Daylight Time, rjkjp1@y... writes: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@w... wrote: > >Hi Howard, > > > A "precious human life" > >as a rare opportunity to progress along the path is a very basic > value > >in Tibetan buddhism. I haven't run across that sentiment in > theravada > >scriptures, but it could easily be there. > ___________________---- > > > Dear Larry, > http://www.vipassana.info/nina-abhi-10.htm > Nina Van gorkom: "We read in the 'Discourse on Fools and the Wise' > (Middle Length Sayings Ill, 129) that the Buddha, when he was > staying in the Jeta Grove, in Anathapindika's monastery, spoke to > the monks about the sufferings in hell and about the anguishes of > animal birth. The Buddha said: > > Monks, it is like a man who might throw a yoke with one hole into > the sea. An easterly wind might take it westwards, a westerly wind > might take it eastwards, a northerly wind might take it southwards, > a southerly wind might take it northwards. There might be a blind > turtle there who came to the surface once in a hundred years. What > do you think about this, monks? Could that blind turtle push his > neck through that one hole in the yoke?' > > 'lf at all, revered sir, then only once in a very long while.' > 'Sooner or later, monks, could the blind turtle push his neck > through the one hole in the yoke; more difficult than that, do I > say, monks, is human status once again for the fool who has gone to > the Downfall. > Monks, if some time or other once in a very long while that fool > came to human status (again), he would be born into those families > that are low: a family of low caste or a family of hunters or a > family of bamboo-plaiters or a family of cartwrights or a family of > refuse-scavengers, in such a family as is needy, without enough to > drink or to eat, where a covering for the back is with difficulty > obtained. Moreover, he would > be illfavoured, ugly, dwarfish, sickly, blind or deformed or lame or > paralysed; he would be unable to get food, drink, clothes, vehicles, > garlands, scents and perfumes, bed, dwelling and lights; he would > fare wrongly in body, wrongly in speech, wrongly in thought. Because > he had > fared wrongly in body, speech and thought, at the breaking up of the > body after dying he would arise in the sorrowful ways, a bad bourn, > the Downfall, Niraya Hell.... > This, monks, is the fool's condition, completed in its > entirety...'; """ > > The atthakattha to Brahmajala sutta notes that this applies > especially to those with wrongview who are said to become rooted in > the round of births and deaths. And we, of course, are those very > beings who have been travelling this infinite samsara because of > self-view and attachment to rule and ritual (sila-bata paramasa > upadana), because of following wrong teaching and wrong practice. > These have become habits which we may even strengthen in this life > if real insight is not developed. > > Only by learning to see the present moment as it really is (nana > dasana ) can we see through the conceptual world. The > Udanaatthakatha (trans. masefield (p71,vol1, enlightenment chapter) > "it is ignorance since it causes beings > to dart among becomings and so on within samsara.., it > is ignorance since it darts among those things which > do not actually exist [i.e.men, women] and > since it does not dart among those things that do > exist [i.e.it cannot understand the khandas, > paramattha dhammas]." > > This sasana (dispensation) of the Buddha is said (according to the > ancient texts) to keep declining and it is already over half way. > During this time right view and practice will continue to decrease > and wrong views and practices will increase. > > RobertK > Samyutta Nikaya: > > "Incalculable is the beginning, monks, of this faring on. The > earliest point is not revealed of the running on, faring on of > beings, cloaked in ignorance, tied by craving... > > "Long have you been caught as dacoits, or high-way men or > adulterers; and through your being beheaded; verily more blood has > flowed upon this long way than there is water in the four oceans." > > "There will come a time, when the mighty ocean will dry up, vanish, > and be no more. There will come a time, when the mighty earth will > be devoured by fire, perish, and be no more. But, yet there will be > no end to the suffering of beings, who, obstucted by ignorance and > ensnared by craving are hurrying and hastening through this round of > rebirths." /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 24259 From: Date: Sat Aug 16, 2003 5:02pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Disappearance of the Sasana Hi, Robert - Exactly what is the Anagatavamsa Desana? At the web site it says this is part of the Pali canon. But that doesn't seem to be so. I'm confused on this. I have found the following: ************************* Anagatavamsa Desana Hardback; Book 70 pages Motilal Banarsidass ISBN: 812081133X This item non-returnable. Order may not be canceled. Free prose transaltion of Anaagatavaomsa desanaa, an adaptation of the Anaagatavaomsa by Kassapathaera, fl. 1160-1230, on the story of Maitreya, Buddhist deity. ******************************** and also the following: ******************************* Editorial Reviews Book Description This Sinhala recension of the Anagatavamsa, here translated into English for the first time, is but one of the several texts forming a genre of Buddhist apocalyptic literature generated by the Cult of Maitreya in South and South-East Asia. It is a prophetic text revealing a rich religious imagination that focuses upon the advent of the future Buddha in a time when those who have long perserved in the religious quest will gain an opportunity to realise the highest spritual attainment. *************************************** From what I see here, this doesn't strike me as part of the Pali canon, and certainly not Buddha word. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 24260 From: rjkjp1 Date: Sat Aug 16, 2003 9:31pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Disappearance of the Sasana --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Robert - > > Exactly what is the Anagatavamsa Desana? At the web site it says this > is part of the Pali canon. But that doesn't seem to be so. > I'm confused on this. I have found the following: > > __ Dear Howard, Not part of the Tipitaka. It is a later Pali text(but based on ancient records) revered in Burma, Sri lanka and Thailand. Of course some scholars doubt its truth - but then a couple of hundred years ago some scholars thought the Buddha was a mythical figure. Robertk 24261 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sat Aug 16, 2003 9:41pm Subject: Re: [dsg] duty of soldiers Hi Victor, My apologies that I addressed you in the third person. Nina. op 15-08-2003 21:15 schreef yu_zhonghao op yu_zhonghao@y...: > > PS. Nina, while you addressed the message directly to me as > indicated in the salutation, you addressed me in third person in the > body of the message. It is like talking to someone and addressing > him or her in third person. 24262 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sat Aug 16, 2003 9:41pm Subject: Re: [dsg]wrong livelihood Dear Ken H, What a heartbreaking story, to part with the cattle. Of course, there are also many kusala cittas, as Rob K also explained when quoting from Ledi Sayadaw. Did you get rid of all cattle now? It is difficult to change one's profession, how did you do it? Nina. op 16-08-2003 10:03 schreef kenhowardau op kenhowardau@y...: > I was > breeding and selling beef cattle. (!!!) , I was molly- > coddling a herd of very contented cows and steers. This > involved scratching behind their ears, 24263 From: Date: Sat Aug 16, 2003 9:42pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Rare human birth1 Hi Robert and Howard, Thanks for the sea turtle story. I had forgotten all about it. Is there a "rare human birth 2"? Larry 24264 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sat Aug 16, 2003 9:42pm Subject: Re: Rare human birth1 Hi Larry, Robert, Howard and all, The Chiggala Sutta also uses a turtle to describe the preciousness and rarity of a human birth during a time when the teachings of a Buddha are available. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn56-048.html metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- 24265 From: norakat147 Date: Sat Aug 16, 2003 11:36pm Subject: Re: Ethical justification for passivity in social action & politics mike: >Those who attack the troubles of the world on a social or political >level attack the branches and leaves but never the roots--the >Buddhadhamma is unique in attacking the roots, whether by way of >ordination and jhaana or simply by way of di.t.thujukamma >(correction of one's views). For ordained or lay people, there is >no more (or even equally) honorable use of food, shelter, clothing >and/or medicine, in my opinion. > I guess there is nothing more honorable than attacking its roots. Its just that while I am spending most of my time and effort practicing dhamma to relieve my own suffering, I look around, and I see the world falling apart and going to hell. Corrupt, greedy, manipulative governments (e.g. our own) and corporations causing unnecessary suffering to the world; ecological disaster, famine, etc. ...in the meantime I spend most of my time and effort to practice dhamma to relieve my own suffering. Sometimes I feel a little guilty and selfish, like I should be out there trying to do something about the latter problems i mentioned; this would, of course, cause me a great deal of stress so i don't even attempt it. nori 24266 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sun Aug 17, 2003 0:25am Subject: Re: Ethical justification for passivity in social action & politics Hello Nori, I empathise with your feelings :-) It ie hard not to have a great deal of righteous anger about the injustices in the world. I have come to realise that all anger is unwholesome. I still do what I can in my immediate vicinity, with situations and people I have contact with, to show compassion and metta. People on this list used to (and still do) talk about anatta and tell me to have awareness of what is arising through the sense doors in this very moment. All the rest is just stories, they would say. [They may not have known it, but this only used to increase my dosa and frustration.] So I marched, and signed petitions, wrote letters and went to meetings - and no doubt will still do that. As well, my job as a hospital crisis worker shows me suffering and injustice on a daily basis. I think often of kamma and it's results, of dukkha and the way that leads to its cessation. Once I asked on this List, as you are doing, what the Buddha might have thought of human rights abuses and injustice in the world. I received a very helpful post from member Dan Dalthorp which you may like to read: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/9513 Personally, I really doubt that any permanent change can happen on this earth - greed, hate and delusion will always rule. The question is How are we to Live? metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "norakat147" wrote: > mike: > > >Those who attack the troubles of the world on a social or political > >level attack the branches and leaves but never the roots--the > >Buddhadhamma is unique in attacking the roots, whether by way of > >ordination and jhaana or simply by way of di.t.thujukamma > >(correction of one's views). For ordained or lay people, there is > >no more (or even equally) honorable use of food, shelter, clothing > >and/or medicine, in my opinion. > > > > I guess there is nothing more honorable than attacking its roots. > > Its just that while I am spending most of my time and effort > practicing dhamma to relieve my own suffering, I look around, and I > see the world falling apart and going to hell. Corrupt, greedy, > manipulative governments (e.g. our own) and corporations causing > unnecessary suffering to the world; ecological disaster, famine, etc. > > ...in the meantime I spend most of my time and effort to practice > dhamma to relieve my own suffering. > > Sometimes I feel a little guilty and selfish, like I should be out > there trying to do something about the latter problems i mentioned; > this would, of course, cause me a great deal of stress so i don't > even attempt it. > > nori 24267 From: alpha16draconis Date: Sat Aug 16, 2003 7:39pm Subject: Kasina Meditation Question Nina, I was taught kasina meditation by the late Ven. U. Vimala of Burma when he resided in Nashville, TN. in the early 1980's. He taught several methods, but the one he taught me was to practice concentration meditation first, then apply that concentration to insight meditation. I concentrate on the kasina device until I have acquired the after-image and fix it in my mind until it fades. I usually do this for 15 to 20 minutes then re-acquire the image again. I'm not sure exactly what is happening, if its my rods and cones or in my mind, but I retain after images in complementary colors whether I want to or not if I've been doing intensive concentration meditation for several consecutive days. Try driving a car with countless bright after images everytime you glance at the sun. I almost have to pull over and wait till the images fade.The phenomenon arises and passes away. I'm fairly certain this is just a stage or barrier or some natural process that results from kasina meditation. Have you ever heard anything like this? Sincerely, Stephen Maddux 24268 From: kenhowardau Date: Sun Aug 17, 2003 0:33am Subject: [dsg] Re: Meditation practice as taught by Sidharttha Gotama himself Howard, Thanks for your comments, I agree with them although there's still plenty of room for debate :-) If you didn't experience strong anger during those ten days, then that rebuts my theory that the high points were lobha, not alobha. Lobha conditions dosa: I know it doesn't have to do so in the short term but, in my experience, coming down from a 'good meditation,' to encounter unpleasant circumstances -- sore legs, annoying neighbours -- usually results in a temper tantrum :-) Kind regards, Ken H the long > run. It may be that this was what was "right" for me at that time, but something > else was needed for you. Your contact with Khun Sujin and her students may be > just what you "needed", and perhaps had your Goenka experience seemed more > positive, the direction of your Dhammic life might have been different and > possibly worse for you. We just can't know - the web of kamma and of causes and > conditions in general is far too complex for us to discern clearly enough. 24269 From: rjkjp1 Date: Sun Aug 17, 2003 0:47am Subject: Re: killing In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" wrote: > I have read extracts from the Mahavamsa about the > millions of Tamil deaths ordered by King Dutthagamani. He is said to > have defeated King Elara, a Tamil King from South India, massacring > millions of people, most of whom were Tamils. >+++++++++++++++++++++++ Dear Christine, This king, apparently, also did some good deeds: "'Ninety-nine viharas have been built by the great king, and, with (the spending of) nineteen kotis, the Maricavattivihara; the splendid Lohapasada was built for thirty kotis. But those precious things that have been made for the Great Thupa were worth twenty kotis; the rest that, was made for the Great Thüpa by the wise (king was worth) a thousand kotis, O great king.' Thus did he read. As he read further: 'In the mountain-region called Kotta, at the time of the famine alled the Akkhakhayika famine, two precious ear-rings were given (by the king), and thus a goodly dish of sour millet- gruel was gotten for five great theras who had overcome the asavas, and offered' to them with a believing heart; when, vanquished in the battle of Culaganiya, he was fleeing he proclaimed the hour (of the meal) and to the ascetic (Tissa), free from the Asavas, who came thither through the air he, without thought for himself, gave the food from his bowl' then did the king take up the tale: 'In the week of the consecration-festival of the (Maricavatti) vihära as at the consecration of the (Loha) pasada, in the week when the (Great) Thupa was begun even as when the relics were enshrined, a general, great and costly giving of alms was arranged by me to the great community of both (sexes) from the four quarters. I held twenty-four great Vesakha-festivals; three times did I bestow the three garments on the brotherhood of the island. Five times, each time for seven days, have I bestowed (glad at heart) the rank of ruler of this island upon the doctrine. I have had a thousand lamps with oil and white wicks burning perpetually in twelve places, adoring the Blessed (Buddha) with this offering. Constantly in eighteen places have I bestowed on the sick the foods for the sick and remedies, as ordered by the physicians. In forty-four places have I commanded the perpetual giving of rice- foods prepared with honey ; and in as many places lumps of rice with oil, and in even as many places great jala-cakes, baked in butter and also therewith the ordinary rice. For the uposatha-festivals I have had oil for the lamps distributed one day in every month in eight vihãras on the island of Lanka. And since I heard that a gift (by preaching) of the doctrine is more than a gift of worldly wealth I said: At the foot of the Lohapasada, in the (preacher's) chair in the midst of the brotherhood, I will preach the Mangalasutta to the brotherhood but when I was seated there I could not preach it, from reverence for the brotherhood. Since then I have commanded the preaching of the doctrine everywhere, in the viharas of Lanka, giving rewards to the preachers. To each preacher of the doctrine did I order to give a nali of butter, molasses and sugar; moreover, I bestowed on them a handful of liquorice, four inches long, and I gave them, moreover, a pair of garments. But all this giving while that I reigned, rejoices not my heart; only the two gifts that I gave, without care for my life, the while I was in adversity, those gladden my heart.' To his younger brother he said: 'All the work of the Great Thüpa which is still unfinished, do thou complete, my dear Tissa, caring duly for it. Evening and morning offer thou flowers at the Great Thupa and three times (in the day) command a solemn oblation at the Great Thupa. All the ceremonies introduced by me in honour of the doctrine of the Blessed (Buddha) do thou carry on, my dear, stinting nothing. Never grow weary, my dear, in duty toward the brotherhood (sangha).'"" http://lakdiva.org/mahavamsa/chap032.html Robertk 24270 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sun Aug 17, 2003 1:19am Subject: Re: killing Dear Robert, Thank you for giving a little more of the story of the King and his good deeds. I do not doubt that the King did many good things. I don't question whether or not the King felt there was no other course than to go to war against the Tamils, causing such a large number of deaths. He seems to have been wracked by guilt and remorse because of it. What I was shocked by, was that the Arahants told him that he had not killed millions - only one and a half human beings ... the remainder of the millions were mere unbelievers. Millions died in pain and terror, men women children, young, elderly - not worth worrying over? - they weren't beings, just unbelievers? Either the words weren't spoken by arahants and were inserted later at the King's command (as has been suggested elsewhere - and then there is a real problem with the authority of the Mahavamsa) or there is a real problem with seeing arahants as those to emulate. These are those who have attained the highest goal to which we should all aspire? My understanding (and I hope it is correct) is that the Mahavamsa is not part of the Tipitaka, that it is a later chronicle of Sri Lankan history. metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" > wrote: > > I have read extracts from the Mahavamsa about the > > millions of Tamil deaths ordered by King Dutthagamani. He is said > to > > have defeated King Elara, a Tamil King from South India, > massacring > > millions of people, most of whom were Tamils. > >+++++++++++++++++++++++ > Dear Christine, > This king, apparently, also did some good deeds: > http://lakdiva.org/mahavamsa/chap032.html > Robertk 24271 From: rjkjp1 Date: Sun Aug 17, 2003 2:35am Subject: Re: killing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Dear Robert, > > Thank you for giving a little more of the story of the King and his > good deeds. I do not doubt that the King did many good things. > I don't question whether or not the King felt there was no other > course than to go to war against the Tamils, causing such a large > number of deaths. He seems to have been wracked by guilt and remorse > because of it. What I was shocked by, was that the Arahants told him > that he had not killed millions - only one and a half human > beings ... the remainder of the millions were mere unbelievers. > Millions died in pain and terror, men women children, young, elderly - > not worth worrying over? - they weren't beings, just unbelievers? _____________ Dear Christine, The King was fighting in Sri lanka after the Tamil kings invaded from India and had almost taken over the country. These were battles between soldiers and so I think there would have been less loss of life of woman and children and elderly than we see in wars these days. The duty of a King is grave and not to be envied. In one of the Jatakas the Buddha is born as a prince but remembers that his last life was 60,000 years being roasted in hell. And that was because in his prior life he was a King, (who no doubt had to fight and inflict punishment). So he refused to be King again. Still whenever I hear of a wise person taking difficult duty I am happy as I believe it is for the betterment of the society; otherwise only buffoons and ruffians will become presidents, generals, diplomats and police. The Mahavamsa is not part of the Tipitaka but is a chronicle of Kings and the Sangha, and of immense value, I believe. The arahants knew that this king would do much for the Sangha and wanted to help him out of his depression (BTW I checked; this wasn't on his deathbed as I thought). The abbreviated paragraph in the Mahavmasa may not do full justice to all the discussion they had with the King. But when you are relating hundreds of years and a long line of kings we can perhaps forgive the author some occasional overzealous dialogue editing. In the Dhammapada atthakattha there is the following story: http://www.vipassana.info/f.htm ""Tambadathika served the king as an executioner of thieves for fifty-five years; he had just retired from that post. One day, after preparing rice gruel at his house, he went to the river for a bath; he had intended to take the specially prepared rice gruel on his return. As he was about to take the rice gruel, Thera Sariputta, who had just arisen from sustained absorption in Concentration (jhana samapatti), stood at his door for alms-food. Seeing the thera, Tambadathika thought to himself, "Throughout my life, I have been executing thieves; now I should offer this food to the thera." So, he invited Thera Sariputta to come in and respectfully offered the rice gruel. After the meal, the thera taught him the Dhamma, but Tambadathika could not pay attention, because he was so agitated as he recollected his past life as an executioner. When the thera knew this, he decided to ask Tambadathika tactfully whether he killed the thieves because he wished to kill them or because he was ordered to do so. Tambadathika answered that he was ordered to kill them by the king and that he had no wish to kill. Then the thera asked, "If that is so, would you be guilty or not ?" Tambadathika then concluded that, as he was not responsible for the evil deeds, he was not guilty. He, therefore, calmed down, and requested the thera to continue his exposition.""" Perhpas if I had to put that into a sentence or two it might sound like I'm trying to say killing is no big deal. But if we know the purpose of Sariputta - to calm the Executioner, so he could listen to Dhamma - we will understand better. It is said that giving even the washings of a teacup to some fish will bring great merit. And then giving to a normal human much more. But giving to someone who has just the beginning of faith in the Dhamma much more than that. Giving to someone who understands Dhamma and keeps the precepts much more again , giving to a sotapanna much much more and so on. Likewise it is much worse to kill a sotapanna (from the point of view of the kammic results) than to kill a normal human being. Worse to kill a person of average morality than a bad man. That is not to say that any killing is without result - simply that the texts say that there are variations in kammic result. And I think this is what the arahants were stressing to the King. They (and he) knew that the Kamma was bad but dwelling on evil done in the past can make matters worse. Best to encourage the person to do good deeds now and in the future. And the King, after that discussion, seemed almost superhuman in the energy he put into the projects for the benefit of the Ti-ratana, Triple gem. When I'm in Thailand I have had a few times someone confide in me some illdeed that is bothering them and I always say words to the effect of "Don't worry, that's all in the past, Now you are a man (or woman ) of faith and the results of that are incomparable and wonderful." And I mean it. RobertK p.s About the war the King said ""Not for the joy of sovereignty is this toil of mine[the war], my striving (has been) ever to establish the doctrine of the Sambuddha"" He listened to his mother(like a good buddhist son): ""The king Dutthagamani also took counsel with his mother and by her counsel formed thirty-two bodies of troops. In these the king placed parasol-bearers and figures of a king;' the monarch himself took his place in the innermost body of troops"" 24272 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sun Aug 17, 2003 3:07am Subject: Re: killing Dear Robert, Thank you for this post - I'll read it over a few times and think about it some more - looking at the story from another perspective could mean that it is a little less disturbing than I first thought. metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: 24273 From: Date: Sun Aug 17, 2003 0:32am Subject: Re: [dsg] Disappearance of the Sasana Hi, Robert - In a message dated 8/17/03 12:31:55 AM Eastern Daylight Time, rjkjp1@y... writes: > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > >Hi, Robert - > > > > Exactly what is the Anagatavamsa Desana? At the web site it > says this > >is part of the Pali canon. But that doesn't seem to be so. > > I'm confused on this. I have found the following: > > > >__ > Dear Howard, > Not part of the Tipitaka. It is a later Pali text(but based on > ancient records) revered in Burma, Sri lanka and Thailand. Of course > some scholars doubt its truth - but then a couple of hundred years > ago some scholars thought the Buddha was a mythical figure. > Robertk > ========================= Thank you for the additional details. I've re-read the article at the web site and find myself *quite* the unbeliever. After 2500 years, the jhanas are attainable, analytic insights, if that includes the tilakkhana, are attainable to *some* degree even in very ordinary people such as myself, and to considerably higher degree in others [I do strongly believe that there are newly attained ariyans in this world], and the tipitaka, after, no doubt, some loss *early* on, seems to be in rather secure shape now, being preserved by print and electronic media, and not only by the memory of human beings. Many Theravadins charge the Mahayanists, with considerable justification, I think, of creating new teachings which, while often quite worthwhile and in perfect harmony with the Buddha word, are not Buddha word but are put forward as such. Most of those "sutras", however, at least have the advantage of positivity, encouraging continued practice of the Dharma. But this work, apparently constructed by a Theravadin Metteya cult lacks even that. It is nice that folks have something to "reverence", but to my mind, they have made a poor choice of object of veneration in this case. Obviously, I do recognize the possibility of my evaluation being in error. Howver, I strongly believe otherwise. May it be so that this strong belief is not the result of being a hopelessly deluded puthujjana who has no chance of taking even baby steps on the path until Lord Metteya arrives. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 24274 From: Date: Sun Aug 17, 2003 0:42am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Rare human birth1 Hi, Christine, Larry, Robert, and all - In a message dated 8/17/03 12:43:46 AM Eastern Daylight Time, cforsyth@v... writes: > > Hi Larry, Robert, Howard and all, > > The Chiggala Sutta also uses a turtle to describe the preciousness > and rarity of a human birth during a time when the teachings of a > Buddha are available. > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn56-048.html > > metta and peace, > Christine > =========================== Part of this sutta has the following English rendering: "It would be a sheer coincidence, lord, that the blind sea-turtle, coming to the surface once every one hundred years, would stick his neck into the yoke with a single hole." "It's likewise a sheer coincidence that one obtains the human state. It's likewise a sheer coincidence that a Tathagata, worthy & rightly self-awakened, arises in the world. It's likewise a sheer coincidence that a doctrine & discipline expounded by a Tathagata appears in the world. ... " I am curious as to the Pali for "sheer coincidence" and how it might otherwise be translated. I suspect this terminology implies only rarity of occurrence and near impossibility of prediction rather than randomness and lack of cause and condition. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 24275 From: m. nease Date: Sun Aug 17, 2003 7:43am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Ethical justification for passivity in social action & politics Hi Nori, ----- Original Message ----- From: norakat147 To: Sent: Saturday, August 16, 2003 11:36 PM Subject: [dsg] Re: Ethical justification for passivity in social action & politics > I guess there is nothing more honorable than attacking its roots. > > Its just that while I am spending most of my time and effort > practicing dhamma to relieve my own suffering, I look around, and I > see the world falling apart and going to hell. Corrupt, greedy, > manipulative governments (e.g. our own) and corporations causing > unnecessary suffering to the world; ecological disaster, famine, etc. It's a mess, all right... > ...in the meantime I spend most of my time and effort to practice > dhamma to relieve my own suffering. Not yours, or you or yourself--just dukkha. > Sometimes I feel a little guilty and selfish, like I should be out > there trying to do something about the latter problems i mentioned; > this would, of course, cause me a great deal of stress so i don't > even attempt it. "I" is the problem, whether socially or individually. When hatred and greed are present, clinging to self is never far away. When understanding is present, ignorance, hatred and greed are not and can't contribute to the horrors you mentioned above. That's why I think that bhavana (and especially di.t.thujukamma, the correction of views) is the best way to approach the problems of the world, whether on an individual or social basis. Any other, material kindness, generosity etc. is wonderful too, of course, in my opinion--but if rooted in ignorance, aversion and desire? Not likely to produce good results, I think. So, obviously, I don't see this as 'ethical justification for passivity in social action & politics'. Cheers! mike 24276 From: m. nease Date: Sun Aug 17, 2003 7:49am Subject: Re: [dsg] Kasina Meditation Question Hi Stephen, Interesting! I've always wondered about kasina meditation since it seems to've been quite commonplace in the Buddha's day. Do you know what your teacher's sources were? I've found bits and pieces regarding colored discs representing the elements and so on (in Vism.?) but don't remember much. Nice to meet you. mike ----- Original Message ----- From: alpha16draconis To: Sent: Saturday, August 16, 2003 7:39 PM Subject: [dsg] Kasina Meditation Question > Nina, > I was taught kasina meditation by the late Ven. U. Vimala of Burma > when he resided in Nashville, TN. in the early 1980's. He taught > several methods, but the one he taught me was to practice > concentration meditation first, then apply that concentration to > insight meditation. I concentrate on the kasina device until I have > acquired the after-image and fix it in my mind until it fades. I > usually do this for 15 to 20 minutes then re-acquire the image again. > I'm not sure exactly what is happening, if its my rods and cones or > in my mind, but I retain after images in complementary colors whether > I want to or not if I've been doing intensive concentration > meditation for several consecutive days. Try driving a car with > countless bright after images everytime you glance at the sun. I > almost have to pull over and wait till the images fade.The phenomenon > arises and passes away. I'm fairly certain this is just a stage or > barrier or some natural process that results from kasina meditation. > Have you ever heard anything like this? > > Sincerely, > Stephen Maddux 24277 From: abhidhammika Date: Sun Aug 17, 2003 8:41am Subject: Re: Kasina Meditation Question Dear Stephen Maddux, Nina, and all How are you? While we are waiting for Nina's answer, I wrote this post to congratulate you, Stephen. The phenomenon you are experiencing might be that of "Learnt Image" (uggahanimitta). To make sure that what you are having is, indeed, the intended "Learnt Image", please kindly carry out the following experiment. 1. Repeat your usual kasi.na practice. 2. With your eyes being open, look at the kasi.na object. 3. With your eyes shut, check if you see the kasi.na object as you would while looking at it with your open eyes. 4. If you see the kasi.na object vividly even though your eyes are shut, then what you have is called "The Learnt Image". If you now, indeed, have "The Learnt Image" (uggahanimitta), Section 57, Chapter 4, Visuddhimaggo, instructs that you should leave the source kasi.na object, and go to a quiet secluded place, and develop and nurture the Learnt Image further. You are to keep nurturing the Learnt Image until you obtain the "Nurtured Image" (pa.tibhaaganimitta). The Nurtured Image does not have the imperfections of the Learnt Image. While the Learnt Image has the color and shape of the source kasi.na object, the Nurtured Image has neither color nor shape (Tan`ca kho neva va.n.navantam, na sa.n.thaanavantam). The Nurtured Image is also said to be made from memory (saññaajametam). Once you obtain the Nurtured Image, you are no longer a human being as we know it. You have crossed over to the status of the non- sensuous being from the common state of sensuous beings that we all are without such a level of jhaana achievement. Once you obtain the Nurtured Image initially, you are at the level of near-jhaana concentration. All you need to do from there from then onward is to make further efforts to enter the level of the First Jhaana. Please read the How- To instructions in Section 58, Chapter 4 in Visuddhimaggo. With regards, Suan Lu Zaw http://www.bodhiology.org --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "alpha16draconis" wrote: Nina, I was taught kasina meditation by the late Ven. U. Vimala of Burma when he resided in Nashville, TN. in the early 1980's. He taught several methods, but the one he taught me was to practice concentration meditation first, then apply that concentration to insight meditation. I concentrate on the kasina device until I have acquired the after-image and fix it in my mind until it fades. I usually do this for 15 to 20 minutes then re-acquire the image again. I'm not sure exactly what is happening, if its my rods and cones or in my mind, but I retain after images in complementary colors whether I want to or not if I've been doing intensive concentration meditation for several consecutive days. Try driving a car with countless bright after images everytime you glance at the sun. I almost have to pull over and wait till the images fade.The phenomenon arises and passes away. I'm fairly certain this is just a stage or barrier or some natural process that results from kasina meditation. Have you ever heard anything like this? Sincerely, Stephen Maddux 24278 From: Jim Anderson Date: Sun Aug 17, 2003 8:36am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Rare human birth1 Hi Howard, The Pali word is 'adhicca' (adj.). Cone gives its meaning as: fortuitous, occurring by mere chance; rare. It is also used as an indeclinable: fortuitously, without cause or reason; rarely. In the Kindred Sayings' translation of the same sutta, it is rendered as 'unlikely'. Best wishes, Jim > I am curious as to the Pali for "sheer coincidence" and how it might > otherwise be translated. I suspect this terminology implies only rarity > of occurrence and near impossibility of prediction rather than randomness > and lack of cause and condition. > > With metta, > Howard 24279 From: Jim Anderson Date: Sun Aug 17, 2003 9:04am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Kasina Meditation Question Dear Suan and all, I was wondering if is absolutely necessary to start with an actual physical colour kasi.na in order to acquire the learning sign (uggahanimitta). Would it be possible to just start by imagining or visualizing a coloured disc and gradually increase the vividness of it to the same high degree? Best wishes, Jim << Dear Stephen Maddux, Nina, and all How are you? While we are waiting for Nina's answer, I wrote this post to congratulate you, Stephen. The phenomenon you are experiencing might be that of "Learnt Image" (uggahanimitta). To make sure that what you are having is, indeed, the intended "Learnt Image", please kindly carry out the following experiment. 1. Repeat your usual kasi.na practice. 2. With your eyes being open, look at the kasi.na object. 3. With your eyes shut, check if you see the kasi.na object as you would while looking at it with your open eyes. 4. If you see the kasi.na object vividly even though your eyes are shut, then what you have is called "The Learnt Image". If you now, indeed, have "The Learnt Image" (uggahanimitta), Section 57, Chapter 4, Visuddhimaggo, instructs that you should leave the source kasi.na object, and go to a quiet secluded place, and develop and nurture the Learnt Image further. You are to keep nurturing the Learnt Image until you obtain the "Nurtured Image" (pa.tibhaaganimitta). The Nurtured Image does not have the imperfections of the Learnt Image. While the Learnt Image has the color and shape of the source kasi.na object, the Nurtured Image has neither color nor shape (Tan`ca kho neva va.n.navantam, na sa.n.thaanavantam). The Nurtured Image is also said to be made from memory (saññaajametam).>> 24280 From: icaro franca Date: Sun Aug 17, 2003 9:16am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Ethical justification for passivity in social action & politics Dear Mike: Mike: " It's a mess, all right..." > Nori:" ...in the meantime I spend most of my time and > effort to practice > > dhamma to relieve my own suffering." > Mike: "Not yours, or you or yourself--just dukkha." ------------------------------------------------------ Butting in, Number one! PatyekkaBuddha (PaccekaBuddha) are mentioned in many sources, Buddhistic and Hunduistic ones.At the Mahayana´s view, the PaccekaBuddha is a selfish creature, that only reachs Nibbana for his own concerns, without spend any thought with other beings, their affairs, their sufferings... At Theravada´s, the PaccekaBuddha is only a Buddha that reached the other shore due his own merits and deeds. You are entirely right, Mike, when says that "Not yours, or you or yourself--just dukkha.". At the Dhammasangani (Atthakathakandam, 4 or 5), it´s written that Nibbana is a ahetu dhamma - a non-conditioned dhamma. So, my suffering and its extinction are not "mine", as the suffering of others are not linked with an idea of "I"... and the Nibbana is not conditioned of concepts of "mine" and "yours". This has got some intriguing consequences: personal efforts are somewhat linked with others´: my happiness build others´, my path towards Nibbana push others to the same goal. ------------------------------------------------------ Mike:" "I" is the problem, whether socially or > individually. When hatred and greed > are present, clinging to self is never far away. > When understanding is > present, ignorance, hatred and greed are not and > can't contribute to the > horrors you mentioned above. That's why I think > that bhavana (and > especially di.t.thujukamma, the correction of views) > is the best way to > approach the problems of the world, whether on an > individual or social > basis. Any other, material kindness, generosity > etc. is wonderful too, of > course, in my opinion--but if rooted in ignorance, > aversion and desire? Not > likely to produce good results, I think. > > So, obviously, I don't see this as 'ethical > justification for passivity in > social action & politics'." ------------------------------------------------- Well posed, number one! Mettaya, Ícaro ===== Seize the time, there´s only minutes left to zero Just got a little taste, I gotta get some more, Just me and you 24281 From: Date: Sun Aug 17, 2003 9:59am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Kasina Meditation Question Suan: "The Nurtured Image does not have the imperfections of the Learnt Image. While the Learnt Image has the color and shape of the source kasi.na object, the Nurtured Image has neither color nor shape (Tan`ca kho neva va.n.navantam, na sa.n.thaanavantam). The Nurtured Image is also said to be made from memory (saññaajametam)." Hi Suan, You might try taking this idea of an image into something more conceptual like "beautiful". I would recommend also the close reading of the section on Earth Kasina. The same principles apply to the color kasinas. Larry 24282 From: Date: Sun Aug 17, 2003 7:10am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Rare human birth1 Hi, Jim - In a message dated 8/17/03 11:43:06 AM Eastern Daylight Time, jimanderson_on@y... writes: > Hi Howard, > > The Pali word is 'adhicca' (adj.). Cone gives its meaning as: > fortuitous, occurring by mere chance; rare. It is also used as an > indeclinable: fortuitously, without cause or reason; rarely. In the > Kindred Sayings' translation of the same sutta, it is rendered as > 'unlikely'. > > Best wishes, > Jim > =========================== Thank you for this. I'm pleased that the senses of "rare" and "unlikely" are included, for the "random" senses are contrary to the Dhamma. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 24283 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Aug 17, 2003 11:40am Subject: Re: [dsg] seven meanings of bhaava. Dear Larry, Thank you for the long note in Vis. VIII, note 68. op 16-08-2003 20:46 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: Note 68. 'In such passages as "Dhammas that are concepts" (Dhs., p. > 1;1308) even a non-entity (abhava) is thus called a "dhamma" since it is > borne (dhariyati) and affirmed (avadhariyati) by knowledge. N: this is interesting, it gives the reason why even concept is dhamma. I shall use this for my meanings of dhamma. L quotes: It often roughly corresponds to "dhatu" (element--see e.g.DhsA.263) and to "lakkhana" (characteristic--see below), but less nearly to the vaguer and (in Pali) untechnical pakati (nature) N: pakati is not vague, it is one of the meanings of dhamma: being suceptible to birth, (jaati dhamma), to old age (jaaradhamma), to death (maraha dhamma). We have to be careful with aa and a: there are two words: bhava and bhaava. It should be sabhaava. Bhava is translated as state of existence. Bhaava: Jim gave us seven meanings: padattha, word meaning. satta: existence. adippaya: intention. kriyaa: function, activity. sabhaava: with its own nature or characteristic. liila: grace, charm. purisitthindriya: faculty of masculinity. I am inclined to be more and more careful with so many meanings of one word. Ve. Nyanamoli also states that essence is loaded by modern philosophy. I am not inclined to use it. Nina. 24284 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Aug 17, 2003 11:40am Subject: FW: meanings of dhamma, no 7. ---------- Van: nina van gorkom Datum: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 09:38:46 +0200 Aan: Pali yahoo Onderwerp: meanings of dhamma, no 7. meanings of dhamma, no 7. The Saddaniti explains dhamma as pariyatti, the scriptures and dhamma as nissatta-nijjiivataa, without a being, without a living soul, in the same way as the Atthasaalinii (38). We read with regard to dhamma as pariyatti: We read with regard to dhamma as nissattanijjiivata: The Saddaniti explains dhamma as vikaara, alteration, subject to change: The Saddaniti explains dhamma as gu.na, merit, virtue: The PED mentions under buddhadhamma, that they are classified as six or as eighteen. The Saddaniti explains dhamma as condition, paccaya, in the same way as hetu, cause, when it refers to the analytical knowledge of cause, dhammapa.tisambhidaa: Words: .thita: firm, fixed. vaasa: condition, control. niyaama: natural order. Ven. Nyanatiloka explains niyaama: Fixedness of Law regarding all things. There is a fivefold natural order, that governs: 1. temperature, season. 2. plant life. 3. kamma. 4. functions of citta in the processes. 5. certain events occurring in the lives of the Buddhas. N: As regards kamma: akusala kamma produces an undesirable result and kusala kamma produces a desirable result, and this is niyaama, a fixed order of dhammas. It cannot be altered. As regards functions of citta: cittas which experience objects through the senses and the mind-door arise in series or processes of citta. Each of the cittas arising in a process performs its own function. For example, when cittas in the eye-door process experience visible object, seeing-consciousness performs the function of seeing, and shortly afterwards kusala cittas or akusala cittas arise in that process, which perform their own function. There is a certain fixed order of cittas within a process and this order cannot be altered. The ³Gradual Sayings² (I, 285) Ch XIV, §134, Appearance states: The same is said with regard to the nature of dukkha and anattaa. Nina. 24285 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Aug 17, 2003 11:40am Subject: Re: [dsg] observing Dear Kio, op 16-08-2003 20:11 schreef suzakico op suzaki@p...: > Another point that I see positive in naming citta, etc., is that > it gives the practitioner the sense of detachment so that he can > name what is going on in the moment. So, this may put him to be in > the seat of observer as opposed to have the false sense of self. N: As I see it, it is more complicated then that. When there is any idea of observer there may be a very subtle, hidden self feeling, an idea of I observe. It is so human and so common; of course, because we have not eradicated the wrong view of self. Therefore, it is our task to detect it when it appears. Very difficult, but it needs panna to be able to detect this. As to a sense of detachment: the first aim is understanding, even attachment. Nina. 24286 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Aug 17, 2003 11:40am Subject: Re: [dsg] impediments to jhana Dear Jon, Lately I have been reflecting more on the 10 impediments, palibodha, you mention. I was listening to a tape. I would like to add a few words. op 16-08-2003 17:01 schreef Jonothan Abbott op jonoabb@y...: > See the concentration section > beginning at Vism III, esp. at par. 27, 28 and 29. The text assumes > that the practitioner has already severed the 10 impediments, namely, > a home, relatives, possessions, students/subordinate, > responsibilities, travel, colleagues and family, illness, formal > study of the teachings, and attainments; and that is just for > starters. N: dwelling, relatives, traveling, all this are characteristics of a busy life, where one is involved with people, it prevents one from leading a solitary life which is so necssary to concentrate on the meditation subject of samatha. The last one refers to supernormal powers. We read: 9III, 56): Studying the impediments helps us to understand the difference between the way of development of insight and of samatha. Why are the first nine impediments not impediments for insight? One's house, social contacts and work are no impediments for insight, because the development of insight is the development of understanding of whatever dhamma appears through one of the six doors. They are sabhaava dhammas, they each have their own characteristic that appear. For samatha a certain method is to be applied, but the method for vipassana is no method. The Buddha said to the monks: here are the roots of the trees, but we should remember to whom he was speaking. The monk is supposed not to indulge in social contacts. Several of them had the skill to develop both jhana and vipassana, thus, that is a different matter. Dhammas appear already because of their own conditions in their own time. If awareness does not arise often (and this is common), the reason is that we still have not quite understood what the object of awareness is: any nama or rupa appearing now. We believe we have understood this, but in reality we have not. We have to listen again, reflect again. Moreover: the perfections have not been accumulated sufficiently, they are still defective, or some perfections have been neglected. Nina. 24287 From: Date: Sun Aug 17, 2003 8:35am Subject: Re: [dsg] observing Hi, Nina (and Kio) - In a message dated 8/17/03 2:40:52 PM Eastern Daylight Time, nilo@e... writes: > Dear Kio, > op 16-08-2003 20:11 schreef suzakico op suzaki@p...: > > >Another point that I see positive in naming citta, etc., is that > >it gives the practitioner the sense of detachment so that he can > >name what is going on in the moment. So, this may put him to be in > >the seat of observer as opposed to have the false sense of self. > N: As I see it, it is more complicated then that. When there is any idea of > observer there may be a very subtle, hidden self feeling, an idea of I > observe. It is so human and so common; of course, because we have not > eradicated the wrong view of self. Therefore, it is our task to detect it > when it appears. Very difficult, but it needs panna to be able to detect > this. > As to a sense of detachment: the first aim is understanding, even > attachment. > Nina. > > ============================= Somehow I missed the post/posts preceding this one in this thread, but I presume this pertains to the practice of labelling recommended by some meditation instructors such as Mahasi Sayadaw. If that is what you are discussing, then I'd like to mention my agreement with your assessment. I think that labelling cittas in any terms not only emphasizes the subjective pole of the mindstate, possibly reinforcing the sense of "observing self", but also activates the conceptual faculty with regard to the objective pole, frequently reinforcing our tendency to reify the object and also compromising the directness of the experiencing and forcing a sense of "hard separation" between subject and object. I think it best, to the extent possible, to *wordlessly* attend to what arises with as much relaxed clarity as conditions permit. When conditions such as sati, ekagatta, passaddhi, and viriya are sufficient to allow pa~n~na to arise, then there will be an exact knowing of what is what without any forced attempts at conceptual characterization. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 24288 From: icaro franca Date: Sun Aug 17, 2003 1:41pm Subject: Re: [dsg] seven meanings of bhaava. Dear Nina: Nina:" We have to be careful with aa and a: there are two > words: bhava and bhaava. > It should be sabhaava. > Bhava is translated as state of existence. > Bhaava: Jim gave us seven meanings: > padattha, word meaning. > satta: existence. > adippaya: intention. > kriyaa: function, activity. > sabhaava: with its own nature or characteristic. > liila: grace, charm. > purisitthindriya: faculty of masculinity." -------------------------------------------------- Exact. As "manaasika", "bhaava" can assume such meanings - I usually use the "adippaya" translation, but the others make sense too! ------------------------------------------------- > Nina: "I am inclined to be more and more careful with so > many meanings of one word. > Ve. Nyanamoli also states that essence is loaded by > modern philosophy. I am > not inclined to use it." ------------------------------------------------------ Essence for Bhaava ? Hmmm... it doesn´t seem coherent with the preceeding meanings. Intention or even "feeling" could do it better. Metta, Ícaro ===== Seize the time, there´s only minutes left to zero Just got a little taste, I gotta get some more, Just me and you 24289 From: icaro franca Date: Sun Aug 17, 2003 2:02pm Subject: Re: [dsg] observing dear Howard: Howard:" I think that > labelling cittas in any terms not only emphasizes > the subjective pole of the > mindstate, possibly reinforcing the sense of > "observing self", but also activates > the conceptual faculty with regard to the objective > pole, frequently > reinforcing our tendency to reify the object and > also compromising the directness of the > experiencing and forcing a sense of "hard > separation" between subject and > object. I think it best, to the extent possible, to > *wordlessly* attend to what > arises with as much relaxed clarity as conditions > permit." ----------------------------------------------------- Respectfully butting in, uprighted upaasaka! Are you supposing a Phenomenological perspective ? Without lying down besides an exaggerated viewpoint of a direct link between Science with Buddhism ( no, I am not a Fritioj Capra´s fan!), wouldn´t you fall at the other side, equally exaggerated ? Negation of Science ? a "Wordless" contemplation of what arises ? You see,despite the firm stand of some scientists, at present times Science has a almost full detachment of the "Phenomenologie" and its reification of events. In my opinion the middle path is the rule in this question. ------------------------------------------------------ Howard:" When conditions such > as sati, ekagatta, passaddhi, and viriya are > sufficient to allow pa~n~na to > arise, then there will be an exact knowing of what > is what without any forced > attempts at conceptual characterization." ---------------------------------------------------- Could you abrogate the labour of mind ( only one of the six senses) on understanding reality ? Is insight only non-conceptual characterization ? Without the help of mind there could´t be even the notion of insight ! Metta, Ícaro > > With metta, > Howard ===== Seize the time, there´s only minutes left to zero Just got a little taste, I gotta get some more, Just me and you 24290 From: alpha16draconis Date: Sun Aug 17, 2003 0:34pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Kasina Meditation Question --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "m. nease" wrote: Mike, I studied under the late Ven. U Vimala of Burma between 1982-1985 when he the abbot of the Buddhist Temple on Treutland Ave. in Nashville, TN. He instructed me in the Vipassana method of the late great Ven. Mahasi Sayadaw. Ven. U. Vimala studied mediation under the Most Ven. U. Pandita of the Mahasi Meditation Center in Burma, but I believe he had studied under dozens of teachers in the course of his life. He was proficient in all 41 kinds of meditation and spoke of doing the rare corpse meditations where one contemplates impermanence upon worm-ridden corpses. He also practiced forest meditation at some point. He was about 48 in 1985 and was initiated as a novice around 11 or 12. I was told he was the equivalent of a professor in his own country and was very knowledgeable about Burmese medicinal plants. I was told by Mr. Maung Tin Wa that he returned to Burma(Myanmar) and passed away from health complications. Stephen Maddux > Hi Stephen, > > Interesting! I've always wondered about kasina meditation since it seems > to've been quite commonplace in the Buddha's day. Do you know what your > teacher's sources were? I've found bits and pieces regarding colored discs > representing the elements and so on (in Vism.?) but don't remember much. > > Nice to meet you. > > mike > 24291 From: Jim Anderson Date: Sun Aug 17, 2003 1:49pm Subject: Re: [dsg] seven meanings of bhaava. Dear Nina and all, Nina: > Bhava is translated as state of existence. > Bhaava: Jim gave us seven meanings: > padattha, word meaning. > satta: existence. > adippaya: intention. > kriyaa: function, activity. > sabhaava: with its own nature or characteristic. > liila: grace, charm. > purisitthindriya: faculty of masculinity. The last item includes the faculty of femininity also (purisa-ITTHI-indriya). The source of these seven meanings is a 12th cent. Pali dictionary/thesaurus called the Abhidhaanappadiipikaa (verse 807). Adippaya should be adhippaaya. Jim 24292 From: Date: Sun Aug 17, 2003 10:51am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Ethical justification for passivity in social action & politics In a message dated 8/16/2003 11:37:12 PM Pacific Daylight Time, nori_public@a... writes: > Its just that while I am spending most of my time and effort > practicing dhamma to relieve my own suffering, I look around, and I > see the world falling apart and going to hell. Corrupt, greedy, > manipulative governments (e.g. our own) and corporations causing > unnecessary suffering to the world; ecological disaster, famine, etc. > > ...in the meantime I spend most of my time and effort to practice > dhamma to relieve my own suffering. > > Sometimes I feel a little guilty and selfish, like I should be out > there trying to do something about the latter problems i mentioned; > this would, of course, cause me a great deal of stress so i don't > even attempt it. > > nori > Hi nori Assuming you are talking about the USA, its nice that you are free to practice dhamma in a country that is so corrupt, greedy, and manipulative. A lot of those other "nice" countries would be forcing you what to think or throwing you in jail or killing you for such views. Or you'd simply be poor and spending all your time worried about survival, no time to practice dhamma. How nice that you are able to express your ideas by means of corporations that are causing unnecessary suffering to the world; ecological disaster, famine, etc. Corporations like the power companies, Internet service providers, telephone companies; corporations providing computers, the clothes you wear, the bed you sleep on, the TV and stereo you use, the CDs or DVDs you use, the car you drive, appliances, home buiding, the planes you may flies to take a trip, the hotels you might stay in, the restaurants you might eat at, the grocery stores you buy food at and all the greedy corporations supplying the grocery stores which their food products, the greedy drug companies that may save your life someday. If corporations keep up their "harmful ways" we may end up finding ourselves in a utopia. In case you didn't notice, the countries that have famine are the same countries with virtually no corporations. How can that be? Yea, you guessed it, its this, greedy country/government that gives away by far the most food and money to poor countries. Damn, another contradiction. Good luck on your Dhamma studies. I think you'll need it. If you cant figure out that the USA is the most charitable country in history, and the reason is due to good hearted people, government, and corporations; I think the complexity of the Dhamma is well beyond your capabilities. Well, perhaps when you say "our government" you are from an Islamic country or France? In that case strike the above, you may have a point. TG 24293 From: kenhowardau Date: Sun Aug 17, 2003 3:00pm Subject: Re: [dsg]wrong livelihood Hello Nina, > What a heartbreaking story, to part with the cattle. > Of course, there are also many kusala cittas, as Rob K > also explained when quoting from Ledi Sayadaw. Did you > get rid of all cattle now? ----------- I have many happy memories of lovely animals that I've owned but heartbreaking stories go with every one of them -- as they say in the country, "where there's livestock, there's deadstock." There is tremendous scope for improvement in Australian meat industries: animals can be given a reasonably long and happy life. There is no benefit in treating them cruelly but cruel, inefficient practices are entrenched. Generally speaking, cattlemen are afraid to show regard for animals -- in case they look weak. ----------- > It is difficult to change one's profession, how did you > do it? ----------- Actually, the profession I was trained in was law. As a young man, I threw in a secure job and persuaded my wife we should move to the country -- to live the good life. After thirteen years, in 1993, we were happy to move back to the coast. I set up a retail plant nursery but it didn't last. I haven't been able to earn much but my wife has always had a good job. Thanks for your interest, I hope you're right about those kusala cittas :-) Kind regards, Ken H 24294 From: Date: Sun Aug 17, 2003 11:08am Subject: Re: [dsg] observing Hi, Icaro - In a message dated 8/17/03 5:03:58 PM Eastern Daylight Time, icarofranca@y... writes: > > dear Howard: > Howard:" I think that > >labelling cittas in any terms not only emphasizes > >the subjective pole of the > >mindstate, possibly reinforcing the sense of > >"observing self", but also activates > >the conceptual faculty with regard to the objective > >pole, frequently > >reinforcing our tendency to reify the object and > >also compromising the directness of the > >experiencing and forcing a sense of "hard > >separation" between subject and > >object. I think it best, to the extent possible, to > >*wordlessly* attend to what > >arises with as much relaxed clarity as conditions > >permit." > > ----------------------------------------------------- > > Respectfully butting in, uprighted upaasaka! > > Are you supposing a Phenomenological perspective ? > Without lying down besides an exaggerated viewpoint > of a direct link between Science with Buddhism ( no, I > am not a Fritioj Capra´s fan!), wouldn´t you fall at > the other side, equally exaggerated ? Negation of > Science ? a "Wordless" contemplation of what arises ? > You see,despite the firm stand of some scientists, > at present times Science has a almost full detachment > of the "Phenomenologie" and its reification of > events. > In my opinion the middle path is the rule in this > question. > > ------------------------------------------------------ > > > Howard:" When conditions such > >as sati, ekagatta, passaddhi, and viriya are > >sufficient to allow pa~n~na to > >arise, then there will be an exact knowing of what > >is what without any forced > >attempts at conceptual characterization." > > ---------------------------------------------------- > > Could you abrogate the labour of mind ( only one > of the six senses) on understanding reality ? Is > insight only non-conceptual characterization ? Without > the help of mind there could´t be even the notion of > insight ! > > Metta, Ícaro > > > >With metta, > >Howard > > > >/Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A > >star at dawn, a bubble > >in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, > >a flickering lamp, a > >phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond > >Sutra) > > ================================== You are correct that my perspective is phenomenological. But that does not mean that I do not make a subject-object distinction or a nama-rupa distinction. I simply think that an extreme of reification at either pole misses the middle way. The content of the Bahiya Sutta is relevant to what I'm saying here. I do certainly agree that intellectual/conceptual understanding of the Dhamma is very important in a supportive role, and can be usefully engaged in during "contemplations". This level of investigation and the resulting conceptual understanding obtained provide a foundation that is very important to the practice, perhaps essential. I engage in discursive, conceptual contemplation and study of the Dhamma much of the time, in fact. But during vipassana bhavana, whether in formal "meditation mode" or engaged in moment-to-moment mindfulness and investigation of dhammas, I think that thinking gets in the way and hinders the arising of enlightenment factors. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 24295 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Sun Aug 17, 2003 4:12pm Subject: Re: [dsg] duty of soldiers Dear Christine, Not trying to convince you, but here are some additional points that I can add to this discussion. 1) Buddha teachings sometimes means more than one things. For example, when he talked about the 8-fold path, I think he was talking about from both samatha and vipassana standpoint, from both conventional speech, and from ultimate realities. I don't think that if we take from the "right livelihood" that one shouldn't become a fisherman if one could avoid, that there is anything wrong with it. 2) On the other hand, if you consider that there is nothing but the realities in this world. What is right livelihood? Whenver there is the abstentation from doing crooked thing in regard to making a living, whenever there is mindfulness being aware of the realities, and whenver the 8-fold path arises. Realities (and truths) are moment by moment only --- there is nothing beyond this. When we consider a person, I think it is more precise to consider the moments rather the person as a whole (which doesn't really exist anyway ;-) ). A butcher may be kind to his calves when he are raising them, then he kills them, and then he sells the meat that he kills. When he is kind and treats his calves well, that's kusala kamma, and that surely will give good result. When he kills them (which is when there is no right livelihood), that's is akusala kamma that would result in being born in hell. When he sells the meat honestly, refusing to cheat (with the weight and such) even when urged otherwise, he is having a right livelihood. Personally, when I break things down moment by moment, my life is way easier. I don't take myself as a good person or a bad person, and I do the same in regard to others. I have wrong livelihood whenever I commit akusala kamma in connection to my job, and not when I refrain. Other people are the same. No people - only realities flow on uninterrupted. kom 24296 From: m. nease Date: Sun Aug 17, 2003 4:20pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Ethical justification for passivity in social action & politics Hi Icaro and Nori, Realized a mistake below, overgeneralizing: ----- Original Message ----- From: icaro franca To: Sent: Sunday, August 17, 2003 9:16 AM Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Ethical justification for passivity in social action & politics I wrote, >> When hatred and greed > > are present, clinging to self is never far away. For the sotapanna on, as I understand it, dosa and lobha may still arise but not self-view. That said, I take all your points Ic--thanks! mike 24297 From: m. nease Date: Sun Aug 17, 2003 4:48pm Subject: Re: [dsg] duty of soldiers Hi Kom, ----- Original Message ----- From: Kom Tukovinit To: Sent: Sunday, August 17, 2003 4:12 PM Subject: Re: [dsg] duty of soldiers Well--said! Especially: > Personally, when I break things down moment by moment, my life is > way easier. I don't take myself as a good person or a bad person, and I > do the same in regard to others. > I have wrong livelihood whenever I > commit akusala kamma in connection to my job, and not when I > refrain. Other people are the same. No people - only realities flow on > uninterrupted. > kom 24298 From: icaro franca Date: Sun Aug 17, 2003 5:26pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Ethical justification for passivity in social action & politics Dear Mike: Mike: "For the sotapanna on, as I understand it, dosa and > lobha may still arise but > not self-view. That said, I take all your points > Ic--thanks!" ---------------------------------------------------- Enjoy it, Number One! About the Sotapana role and Akusala Cittas, I must add that Sotapanna eradicated the 1st, 2nd, 5th, 6th and 11th types of Akusala consciousness: 1. Somanassa-sahagatam, ditthigatasampayuttam, asankharikam ekam, 2. Somanassa-sahagatam, ditthigatasampayuttam, sasankharikam' ekam, 5. Upekkhasahagatam, ditthigatasampayuttam, asankharikam ekam, 6. Upekkhasahagatam, ditthigatasampayuttam, sasankharikam ekam. 11. Upekkhasahagatam vicikicchasampayuttam ekam. Translating (as better as I can...): 1. One consciousness, unprompted, accompanied with pleasure, and connected with wrong view, 2. One consciousness, prompted, accompanied with pleasure, and connected with wrong view, 5. One consciousness, unprompted, accompanied with indifference, and connected with wrong view, 6. One consciousness, prompted, accompanied with indifference, and connected with wrong view, 11. One consciousness, accompanied with indifference, and connected with doubts He has destroyed too the two Fetters (samyojana) - Sakkayaditthi (self-illusion) and Vicikiccha (doubts). Take all my points, Mike!!! I only hope to clear up my grammatical errors before reaching Nibanna! Metta, Ícaro ===== Seize the time, there´s only minutes left to zero Just got a little taste, I gotta get some more, Just me and you 24299 From: Date: Sun Aug 17, 2003 1:36pm Subject: Re: [dsg] duty of soldiers Hi, Kom (and Christine) - In a message dated 8/17/03 7:13:02 PM Eastern Daylight Time, kom@a... writes: > > Dear Christine, > > Not trying to convince you, but here are some additional points that I > can add to this discussion. > > 1) Buddha teachings sometimes means more than one things. For > example, when he talked about the 8-fold path, I think he was talking > about from both samatha and vipassana standpoint, from both > conventional speech, and from ultimate realities. > --------------------------------------------------- Howard: Kom, what is the 8-fold path from the samatha standpoint? I don't understand that. ------------------------------------------------- I don't think that if we > > take from the "right livelihood" that one shouldn't become a fisherman if > one could avoid, that there is anything wrong with it. -------------------------------------------------- Howard: I don't get which way you are going here. Are you saying that being a fisherman is or is not right livelihood? I don't personally think that being a fisherman or being a soldier or a seller of alcoholic beverages or even a seller of munitions necessarily makes one a "monster", I also don't think that any of these occupations makes it to a right livelihood list. -------------------------------------------------- > > 2) On the other hand, if you consider that there is nothing but the > realities in this world. What is right livelihood? Whenver there is the > abstentation from doing crooked thing in regard to making a living, > whenever there is mindfulness being aware of the realities, and > whenver the 8-fold path arises. Realities (and truths) are moment by > moment only --- there is nothing beyond this. > ------------------------------------------------- Howard: True. What we call having a particular livelihood is a mentally assembled complex of a multitude of interrelated events over a long period of time. ------------------------------------------------- > > When we consider a person, I think it is more precise to consider the > moments rather the person as a whole (which doesn't really exist > anyway ;-) ). A butcher may be kind to his calves when he are raising > them, then he kills them, and then he sells the meat that he kills. > --------------------------------------------------- Howard: However, the intention involved in his raising of them and tending to them, his purpose, is ongoing and akusala. ---------------------------------------------------- > > When he is kind and treats his calves well, that's kusala kamma, and > that surely will give good result. When he kills them (which is when > there is no right livelihood), that's is akusala kamma that would result in > being born in hell. When he sells the meat honestly, refusing to cheat > (with the weight and such) even when urged otherwise, he is having a > right livelihood. > ------------------------------------------------------ Howard: But the basis of the entire matter is the intention to slaughter for profit. ------------------------------------------------------ > > Personally, when I break things down moment by moment, my life is > way easier. I don't take myself as a good person or a bad person, and I > do the same in regard to others. > ------------------------------------------------------- Howard: I think that one needs to be *very careful* with such an approach. When one sees only the trees, but not the forest, one does not see all there is, and when things become broken down and depersonalized in the wrong way, evil actions could result. There was a group of ascetics at the time of the Buddha that excused killing by sword as simply a matter of solidity passing through solidity! -------------------------------------------------------- I have wrong livelihood whenever I > > commit akusala kamma in connection to my job, and not when I > refrain. Other people are the same. ------------------------------------------------------- Howard: But an initial and repeated choice in favor of an occupation that will consistently or ultimately lead to akusala acts is, itself, akusala. -------------------------------------------------------- No people - only realities flow on > > uninterrupted. ---------------------------------------------------- Howard: But a world of "realities" which, at the conventional level of und erstanding, is a world of slaughter is not as good as one which is a world of love and peace. There is danger in extreme views, Kom. --------------------------------------------------- > > kom > ========================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 24300 From: icaro franca Date: Sun Aug 17, 2003 6:07pm Subject: Re: [dsg] duty of soldiers Dear Howard: > Howard:"Kom, what is the 8-fold path from the samatha > standpoint? I don't > understand that." > ------------------------------------------------- Perhaps an approach on the Majjhima-patipada may clarify the question: 1) Mindfulness: samma-sati 2) Wisdom: samma-ditthi 3) Concentration: samma-samadhi 4) Right Thinking: samma-samkappa 5) Right Effort: samma-vayama These factors are needed to walk the Middle Way with awareness...but not to categorize into likes or dislikes. This is not neutral(Abhyakata) either. Can one call this free-awareness Samatha ? ------------------------------------------------------ > Howard: "I don't get which way you are going here. Are you saying that being a > fisherman is or is not right livelihood? I don't > personally think that being a > fisherman or being a soldier or a seller of > alcoholic beverages or even a > seller of munitions necessarily makes one a > "monster", I also don't think that > any of these occupations makes it to a right > livelihood list." > -------------------------------------------------- I can recall an example of Vinaya: Bhikkhus cannot deal with remedies, making it, selling it or make Pharmacology source of profits. But laypersons are free to take these and other business and be happy anyway. As a matter of fact - at least at Theravada! - only real Bhikkhus are real good buddhists! Metta, Ícaro ===== Seize the time, there´s only minutes left to zero Just got a little taste, I gotta get some more, Just me and you 24301 From: kenhowardau Date: Sun Aug 17, 2003 6:14pm Subject: Re: Rare human birth1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > --- > > Nina Van gorkom: "We read in the 'Discourse on Fools and the Wise' > (Middle Length Sayings Ill, 129) that the Buddha, when he was > staying in the Jeta Grove, in Anathapindika's monastery, spoke to > the monks about the sufferings in hell and about the anguishes of > animal birth. The Buddha said: > > Monks, it is like a man who might throw a yoke with one hole into > the sea. An easterly wind might > Hi Robert, I gather the operative word here is "fool." Some wise people are said to have been reborn in animal worlds without being stuck there for near eternity. One sutta I vaguely recall, has a wise woman with a weakness for sense pleasure, going from the human realm to the deva realm to the animal realm then back to the human realm where she promptly attains Stream-Entry. It begins with a nice little verse: "In Brahma-world she shines bright, In pig-pen too she finds delight." :-) Kind regards, Ken H 24302 From: alpha16draconis Date: Sun Aug 17, 2003 2:20pm Subject: Re: Kasina Meditation Question --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "abhidhammika" wrote: Suan Lu Zaw, I have dozens of little books that were indended for English speaking bhikkhus that were printed in Burma and given to me by Ven. U. Vimala to assist me in Right Understanding. From: Purpose of Practicing Kammatthana Meditation by Venerable Mahasi Sayadaw translated into english by U Min Swe( Min Kyaw Thu) limited to 1000 copies printed in 1980. This short tratise gives concise information about Kammathana meditation. Q. Why should kammathana meditation be practiced? A. Kammathana meditation should be practiced so as to reach nibbana, therby escaping from all kinds of misery, such as old age, death, ect.(pg. 1) Only if vipassana insight meditation is practiced, will one be able to realize nibbana and be completely free from all kinds of misery and sufferings. There are two modes of practicing vipassana meditation. They are: (1) practicing samatha using it as a vehicle for the attainment of vipassana nana. (2) practicing kammathana vipassana pure and directly without the basic exercise of samatha. A person who practices kamatthanna vipassana meditation without using samatha as a ground work, is known as suddha-vipassanayanika. A person who practices meditation for realization of nibbana making use of samatha as a frame-work is known as samathayanika, which means a person who 'makes his way' to nibbana using samatha as a vehicle. (pg 6) FORTY KAMMMATHANAS This samatha-kammatthana comprises (40) sorts. They are: 1. Kasina (10) 2. Asuba (10) 3. Anussati (10) 4. Brahmavihara (4) 5. Aruppa (4) 6. Ahara Patikkulasanna(1) 7. Catudhatuvavattaamna(1) (pg.7) TEN SORTS OF KASINA 1.Earth 2.Water 3.Fire 4.Wind 5.Brownish-deep purple kassina 6.Yellow kasina 7.Red kasina 8.White kasina 9.Light kasina 10.Open air-sky kasina (pg. 7) THE MEDITATION METHOD OF SAMATHA_KAMMATTHANA IN BRIEF: Using as example the pathavi-kasina(earth kasina) as the subject of contemplation, the person should fix his eyes upon a spot of earth on the ground or a circle of earth-device and contemplate mentally noting pathavi, pathavi, or earth, earth, earth. After repeated contemplation for a considerable time, the vivid image or nimitta of the earth device will appear in the mind when the eyes are closed as clearly as when they are open. The appearance of the mental image is called Uggaha-nimitta(acquired image). If this nimitta becomes fixed and steady in the mind, he can go to any place and take up a posture of either sitting, walking, standing or lying. He should continue to contemplate on the Uggatha-nimitta by mentally saying, earth, earth, earth. While contemplating, it may happen that the mind does not remain fixed on its object and is likely to wander to other objects in the following manner. 1. The mind may think of desirable or agreeable objects according to its own inclination. This is called kamacchanda-nivarana (sensual lust) 2. The mind may dwell on thoughts of despair and anger. This is called Vyapada-nivarana (ill-will) 3. Slackness in contemplation may take place and the mind becomes dull and foggy. This is called Thina-middha-nivarana(sloth and torpor) 4. The mind may become unstable and fleeting or restles, and then recollecting the past misdeeds in speech and bodily actions and is likely to become worried. These are known as Uddhacca-kukkucca- nivarana(restlessness and worry) 5. Thoughts may arise 'whether the contemplation which is being undertaken is a right method, or whether it is capable of bringing beneficial results , or whether there is any chance to achieve any good results. This is Vicikiccha-nivarana(skeptical doubt) (pg. 14) When these five hindrances appear, they should be discarded and rejected as they occur, and the mind should be immediately brought back to the original object of Uggaha-nimitta (acquired-image) letting it dwell constantly on it, mentally noting... earth, earth, earth. If the Uggaha-nimitta(acquired-image) disappears from the mind, one should go back to the kasina device and contemplate it again by fixing the eyes on the device until the Uggaha-nimitta is formed again in the mind's eye. Thereafter, one should return to the desired place and proceed with contemplation as before whether standing, walking, sitting or lying. Carrying on thus the contemplation of the acquired-image repeatedly for a long time, the object assumes a very brilliant and crystalline appearance quite unlike that of the original. This is called Patibhaga-nimitta( counterpart-image). At this time the mind is free from all Nivaranas(hindrances). This state of mind is known as Upacara-samathi (proximate concentration. Now, by continually fixing the mind with this acquired-image on counterpart image, the mind reaches a state as if it were sinking into the object and remains fixed in it. This state of fixedness and stability of mind is known as Appana-samathi(ecstatic concentration). (pg 15) Appana-samathi is of four kinds. 1. First Jhana 2. Second Jhana 3. Third Jhana 4. Forth Jhana (pg. 16) I'll end here for a while. Stephen Maddux 24303 From: m. nease Date: Sun Aug 17, 2003 6:22pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Ethical justification for passivity in social action & politics Icaro, Thanks for the added details--always appreciated! mike p.s. Never mind your grammatical errors--how on earth did you know enough of the language to attack the Dhammasangali(sp?) and Vism. in Paali?! ----- Original Message ----- From: icaro franca To: Sent: Sunday, August 17, 2003 5:26 PM Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Ethical justification for passivity in social action & politics > Dear Mike: > Mike: "For the sotapanna on, as I understand it, dosa > and > > lobha may still arise but > > not self-view. That said, I take all your points > > Ic--thanks!" > > ---------------------------------------------------- > > Enjoy it, Number One! > About the Sotapana role and Akusala Cittas, I must > add that Sotapanna eradicated the 1st, 2nd, 5th, 6th > and 11th types of Akusala consciousness: > > 1. Somanassa-sahagatam, ditthigatasampayuttam, > asankharikam ekam, > 2. Somanassa-sahagatam, ditthigatasampayuttam, > sasankharikam' ekam, > 5. Upekkhasahagatam, ditthigatasampayuttam, > asankharikam ekam, > 6. Upekkhasahagatam, ditthigatasampayuttam, > sasankharikam ekam. > 11. Upekkhasahagatam vicikicchasampayuttam ekam. > > Translating (as better as I can...): > > 1. One consciousness, unprompted, accompanied with > pleasure, and connected with wrong view, > 2. One consciousness, prompted, accompanied with > pleasure, and connected with wrong view, > 5. One consciousness, unprompted, accompanied with > indifference, and connected with wrong view, > 6. One consciousness, prompted, accompanied with > indifference, and connected with wrong view, > 11. One consciousness, accompanied with indifference, > and connected with doubts > > He has destroyed too the two Fetters (samyojana) - > Sakkayaditthi (self-illusion) and Vicikiccha (doubts). > > Take all my points, Mike!!! > I only hope to clear up my grammatical errors before > reaching Nibanna! 24304 From: rjkjp1 Date: Sun Aug 17, 2003 8:46pm Subject: Re: Rare human birth1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" > > > > Monks, it is like a man who might throw a yoke with one hole into > > the sea. An easterly wind might > > > > Hi Robert, > > I gather the operative word here is "fool." Some wise > people are said to have been reborn in animal worlds > without being stuck there for near eternity. One sutta I > vaguely recall, has a wise woman with a weakness for > sense pleasure, going from the human realm to the deva > realm to the animal realm then back to the human realm > where she promptly attains Stream-Entry. It begins with a > nice little verse: > > "In Brahma-world she shines bright, > In pig-pen too she finds delight." > > _____________ That's right (as I understand it) Ken. The Brahmajala sutta commentary says that the one with extreme wrongview is the one who becomes 'rooted in the round" . There are many cases of those who were beginning to develop right understanding- but who took animal or hellish rebirth, who soon came back to human life. Even the Bodhisata\ta , after gaining prediction of Buddhahood many times was born as animal and even in hell. Another example is queen Malika - died, went to hell for 7 days , then to deva world, visited Buddha and became a sotapanna. Robert 24305 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Mon Aug 18, 2003 1:10am Subject: RE: [dsg] duty of soldiers Hi Howard, > -----Original Message----- > From: upasaka@a... [mailto:upasaka@a...] > To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com > > > > --------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Kom, what is the 8-fold path from the samatha standpoint? I don't > understand that. > ------------------------------------------------- One can be said to have samma-samathi without it being a factor of the 8-fold path (in mundane or supramundane), this is the same way for the other samma-factors. I see this as being samatha, momentary suppression of defilement thru various means including recollection of the dhamma, or jhana development. > Howard: > I don't get which way you are going here. Are you saying > that being a > fisherman is or is not right livelihood? I don't personally think > that being a > fisherman or being a soldier or a seller of alcoholic beverages or even a > seller of munitions necessarily makes one a "monster", I also > don't think that > any of these occupations makes it to a right livelihood list. I am taking the momentary positions more than anything else. If a monk steals to live, is that any less wrong than a fisherman who kills? If a fisherman is developing panna, is it any less good than a monk who does? There are fisherman and soldiers who became sotapanna. I think it is then that we begin to see the true purity of right livelihood (as a factor of the path). > > > > When we consider a person, I think it is more precise to consider the > > moments rather the person as a whole (which doesn't really exist > > anyway ;-) ). A butcher may be kind to his calves when he are raising > > them, then he kills them, and then he sells the meat that he kills. > > > --------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > However, the intention involved in his raising of them and > tending to > them, his purpose, is ongoing and akusala. > ---------------------------------------------------- Some of the parents have kids being afraid that when they get older, there would be nobody who would take care of them, but I certainly wouldn't say that the entire time that they are raising the kids, it is all for selfish motives. Kindness is kindness, and selfishness is selfishness. They don't mix, even if they alternate. > ------------------------------------------------------ > Howard: > But the basis of the entire matter is the intention to > slaughter for > profit. > ------------------------------------------------------ ditto above. > ------------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > But an initial and repeated choice in favor of an > occupation that will > consistently or ultimately lead to akusala acts is, itself, akusala. Some are born into the profession. This might not be obvious to us in the free-world, but there are less fortunate people. The decision to do something is not free will (since there is no kandha that is unconditioned), but a reality conditioned by complex factors including being among good or bad friends, familial status, pre-disposition, current occurrences, etc. > -------------------------------------------------------- > No people - only realities flow on > > > uninterrupted. > ---------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > But a world of "realities" which, at the conventional level of und > erstanding, is a world of slaughter is not as good as one which > is a world of love > and peace. There is danger in extreme views, Kom. > --------------------------------------------------- > Because there is no perfect world of love and peace. Even in the world where the Buddha lives, there are still external elements of defilements. I don't think there is any danger in views that *match* the truths, views that lead toward higher knowledge, relinquishment, and nibbana, but there are dangers in views that don't. kom 24306 From: Sarah Date: Mon Aug 18, 2003 1:36am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Is solitude not dukkha? As well as absence of love and friendship? Dear Victor, --- yu_zhonghao wrote: > Hi Sarah, V:> This is how I see it: > > Living alone in solitude does not mean that one lives without > friendship and association with the good and virtuous(kalyamittata). > > Living with husband, or wife, or girlfriend, or boyfriend, or in a > house crowded with children and possession is not living alone. It > is attachment. ..... I undersatand what you're saying. You make many interesting points and I agree with you that those who have eradicated all attachment to sense pleasures (i.e anagamis and arahants) would have no inclination at all for accumulating family or living anything resembling our dusty household life. However, I’m not at all convinced that living alone without family or possessions will of itself lead to any decrease in attachment. You give the analogy of giving up smoking and the withdrawal symptoms experienced. However, even though one may get used to the monk’s life or the ‘living alone’ life in this way, nothing has been done to eradicate the anusaya (latent tendencies) or roots (as Mike puts it) of the problems, if wisdom hasn’t been developed. The particular tendencies may not appear to manifest again for a good long while -- maybe not again in this lifetime even -- but the tendencies are still there. The latent desires and inclinations will re-surface and become apparent under different circumstances such as if, for example, a monk disrobes or if the person living alone returns to family life. I’m certainly not suggesting such a course of action to test them out;-) As Robert K quoted before, wisdom is the ridge pole: “The power of faith, effort, mindfulness, concentration and wisdom. Bhikkhus, of these five the most important and the one that holds together the rest is wisdom Just as the ridge pole is the most important and it is the one which holds together the rest of a gabled roof, in the same manner, of the powers of faith, effort mindfulness concentration and wisdom, the most important, and the one that holds together the rest is wisdom.” http://www.metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/4Anguttara- Nikaya/Anguttara3/5-pancakanipata/002-balavaggo-e.htm ..... V:> To realize the cessation of dukkha, living alone in solitude is > better than living with husband, or wife, or girlfriend, or > boyfriend, or in a house crowded with children and possession. ..... This is rather like the ‘right livelihood’ argument, I think. The idea seems to be if one organises one’s lifestyle in a certain way to follow what one conceptually understands to be the way that one should live without attachment or without causing any harm, a decrease in attachment and harm and an increase in metta and wisdom will follow. Like we saw in Meghiya’ s case, I think this argument has flaws and was not the instruction given by the Buddha. Indeed, when there is the idea of another place, another time, another lifestyle, it suggests a lack of confidence in the value of the Dhamma and the power of wisdom to understand the present reality. Thinking of situations and lifestyles takes one away from this same reality and an idea that one can judge the attachment by the outer appearance is likely to lead one into trouble, I think. For example, One may be very attached to living alone or to not having possessions around one. I still recall how hard it was for me to give up life in a tiny bare cell (with no electricity) in the forest in Sri Lanka to return to England and try to help my family during a difficult time. Strong clinging to self can have many labels, justifications (including spiritual) and outer appearances, I still find. ..... V:> Living with husband, or wife, or girlfriend, or boyfriend, or in a > house crowded with children and possession and saying it is possible > to live like that without attachment is like having the habit of > smoking cigarette and saying it is possible to smoke like that > without addiction. ..... I don’t think anyone suggests for a minute that they can live in any way without attachment. Remember the example given in the commentary to the Udana about “seeing fear in sins the size of an atom”? There will be no shortage of attachment to be seen whatever our lifestyle. Let me finish off by quoting some relevant extracts about Anathapindika, always highly praised by the Buddha. I can now quote from the DPPN on-line: http://www.palikanon.com/english/pali_names/dic_idx.html Anáthapindika ============== "A banker (setthi) of Sávatthi who became famous because of his unparalleled generosity to the Buddha. His first meeting with the Buddha was during the first year after the Enlightenment, in Rájagaha (the story is given in Vin.ii.154ff; SA.i.240ff, etc.), whither Anáthapindika had come on business. The Buddha was staying in the Sítavana, and when Anáthapindika reached there spirits opened the door for him. He found the Buddha walking up and down, meditating in the cool air of the early dawn. The Buddha greeted him and talked to him on various aspects of his teaching. Anáthapindika was immediately converted and became a Sotápanna. He spent eighteen crores on the purchase of Jetavana and a like sum on the construction of the vihára; another eighteen crores were spent in the festival of dedication. He fed one hundred monks in his house daily in addition to meals provided for guests, people of the village, invalids, etc. Five hundred seats were always ready in his house for any guests who might come (AA.i.208-9. He fed 1,000 monks daily says DhA.i.128; but see J.iii.119, where a monk, who had come from far away and had missed the meal hour, had to starve.). Anáthapindika married a lady called Puññalakkhaná (J.ii.410; J.iii.435, she was the sister of the setthi of Rájagaha. SA.i.240); he had a son Kála and three daughters, Mahá-Subhaddá, Cúla-Subhaddá and Sumaná. (Besides Kála, Anáthapindika had another son, who joined the Order under Subhúti Thera; AA.ii.865). Mention is also made of a daughter-in law, Sujátá by name, daughter of Dhanañjaya and the youngest sister of Visákhá. She was very haughty and ill-treated the servants (J.ii.347). The son, in spite of his father's efforts, showed no piety until he was finally bribed to go to the vihára and listen to the Buddha's preaching (see Kála). The daughters, on the other hand, were most dutiful and helped their father in ministering to the monks. The two elder ones attained to the First Fruit of the Path, married, and went to live with the families of their husbands. Sumaná obtained the Second Fruit of the Path, but remained unmarried. Overwhelmed with disappointment because of her failure in finding a husband, she refused to eat and died; she was reborn in Tusita (DhA.i.128f). ..... [Victor: take note about Sumana!!!!] ...... The Bhadraghata Játaka (J.ii.431) tells us of a nephew of Anáthapindika who squandered his inheritance of forty crores. His uncle gave him first one thousand and then another five hundred with which to trade. This also he squandered. Anáthapindika then gave him two garments. On applying for further help the man was taken by the neck and pushed out of doors. A little later he was found dead by a side wall. All his servants, however, were not so intelligent. A slave woman of his, seeing that a fly had settled on her mother, hit her with a pestle in order to drive it away, and killed her (J.i.248f). ..... [!!!] ..... All the banker's friends were not virtuous; one of them kept a tavern (J.i.251). As a result of Anáthapindika's selfless generosity he was gradually reduced to poverty. But he continued his gifts even when he had only bird-seed and sour gruel. .........Buddha of his own accord preached to him on various occasions; several such sermons are mentioned in the Anguttara Nikáya: * on the importance of having a well-guarded mind like a well-protected gable in a house (A.i.261f); * on the benefits the recipient of food obtains (life, beauty, happiness, strength); * on the four obligations that make up the pious householder's path of duty (gihisámikiccáni - waiting on the Order with robes, food, lodgings, medical requirements. Referred to also in S.v.387, where Anáthapindika expresses his satisfaction that he had never failed in these obligations); * on the four conditions of success that are hard to win (wealth gotten by lawful means, good report, longevity, happy rebirth); * on the four kinds of happiness which a householder should seek (ownership, wealth, debtless ness, blamelessness) (these various tetrads are given in A.ii.64ff). * on the five kinds of enjoyment which result from wealth rightfully obtained (enjoyment - experienced by oneself and by one's friends and relations, security in times of need, ability to pay taxes and to spend on one's religion, the giving of alms to bring about a happy rebirth, A.iii.45-6); * the five things which are very desirable but difficult to obtain (long life, beauty, happiness, glory, good condition of rebirths, A.iii.47-8); * the five sinful acts that justify a man's being called wicked (hurting of life, etc. A.iii.204); * the inadvisability of being satisfied with providing requisites for monks without asking oneself if one also experiences the joy that is born of ease of mind (evidently a gentle warning to Anáthapindika, A.iii.206-7). ....... and we also find him consulting the Buddha regarding the marriage of his daughter, Cola Subhaddá (DhA.iii.466). Anáthapindika died before the Buddha............ ......Later he fed the Elders with food from his own cooking-pot, but quite soon afterwards he died and was born in the Tusita heaven. That same night he visited the Buddha at Jetavana and uttered a song of praise of Jetavana and of Sáriputta who lived there, admonishing others to follow the Buddha's teaching. In heaven he will live as long as Visákhá and Sakka (DA.iii.740). Anáthapindika was not only a shrewd business man but also a keen debater. The Anguttara Nikáya (A.v.185-9) records a visit he paid to the Paribbájakas when he could think of nothing better to do. A lively debate ensues regarding their views and the views of the Buddha as expounded by Anáthapindika. The latter silences his opponents. When the incident is reported to the Buddha, he speaks in high praise of Anáthapindika and expresses his admiration of the way in which he handled the discussion. During the time of Padumattara Buddha Anáthapindika had been a householder of Hamsavatí. One day he heard the Buddha speak of a lay-disciple of his as being the chief of alms-givers. The householder resolved to be so designated himself in some future life and did many good deeds to that end. His wish was fulfilled in this present life. Anáthapindika is sometimes referred to as Mahá Anáthapindika to distinguish him from Cúla Anáthapindika." ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Oops - it all seemed relevant to the thread and got a little long. Look forward to your comments, Victor. Metta, Sarah ===== 24307 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Mon Aug 18, 2003 1:57am Subject: FW: [dsg] duty of soldiers Oh Howard (and others), I forgot to mention one more thing. Do you know that the Bodhisatta, one who is developing all the 30 perfections to become a samma-sambuddha, cannot keep any of the precepts perfectly except for that related to lying? How do you think we would do, comparing to the Bodhisatta? Even if we are not in the wrong profession in this life, we might be in the next. Are you sure you can get out of it? I think we can only do the best we can. kom 24308 From: Sarah Date: Mon Aug 18, 2003 2:48am Subject: Absence Makes the Heart Grow Fonder (was Vism. XIV 3, subco. no conclusion) Hi Jim (& Victor), --- Jim Anderson wrote: > > I think that would have made sense if 'dassita' were taken as 'seen' > but the normal Pali word in this sense would have been 'di.t.tha-'. ..... I see I’m getting my roots tangled up again and appreciate your ‘weeding’ and the ‘visibility’. Like you, I first read the Visuddhimagga almost 3O years ago. In those days, it seemed pretty straight-forward -- something like a detailed manual to fit into my meditation experiences;-) These days, just a sentence or phrase is very profound and difficult to even comprehend intellectually. Thank you, Nina, Larry and all for all your comments to really help us appreciate this profundity. ..... >I found one occurence of a > translation of 'dassitamaggena' by Masefield in Peta Stories, p. 160: > (Going) along the route described (by him . . .). .... Thank your for the reference. In this context, clearly ‘magga’ refers to a regular route or track. Jim, I hope life has returned to normal in Ontario. At least if you have a blackout in mid-winter, you won’t have to worry about the fridge;-) I understand the blackout on the Canadian side was caused by US negligence and vice versa;-) ***** Victor, Jim’s reference reminded me of the unusual Kannamunda Peta story. I won’t go into any details, but just to say we read about the 500 women reborn as vimaanapeti(?transl: ?heavenly ghosts) who enjoyed ‘heavenly excellence in the absence of any men’. After 550 years, however, they became dissatisfied and started plotting how to attract men to visit them by sending heavenly fruits along the Ganges. When eventually a forester followed the trail, they ran up to him saying, “’this man belongs to me! This man belongs to me!”. The poor forester took fright, but the king followed in his footsteps..... Metta, Sarah p.s Jim, the story about the 'Contempt for the Relics', p221, which I've quoted from before, really helped me appreciate the importance of respect in this regard. There is also a lot of detail about the relics in the Comy to the Parinibbana Sutta, but much of it is in other commentaries as well. ===== 24309 From: rjkjp1 Date: Mon Aug 18, 2003 3:06am Subject: Re: [dsg] Disappearance of the Sasana Dear Howard , I just wanted to let you know I appreciate your post and I'm thinking about the points you bring up. I'll try to answer in a few days Robert In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Robert - > > In> Thank you for the additional details. I've re-read the article at the > web site and find myself *quite* the unbeliever. > After 2500 years, the jhanas are attainable, analytic insights, if > that includes the tilakkhana, are attainable to *some* degree even in very > ordinary people such as myself, and to considerably higher degree in others [ this message have been removed] 24310 From: Sarah Date: Mon Aug 18, 2003 3:17am Subject: RE: [dsg] concentration Hi Larry, S:Sorry for the usual delay and many thanks for typing in all of note 68. It’s great to have it to refer back without needing to retype;-) L: >I agree. There has to be right view in order to develop right concentration. And, seemingly, there has to be right concentration in order for understanding to arise. What I am trying to understand is why understanding (panna) doesn't arise. Maybe because the 8 path factors haven't arisen. ..... S:I think that in the beginning, moments of awareness (satipatthana) are so brief and occasional, followed by attachment, doubt, thinking and so on, that it seems like panna will never develop. However, this is just thinking and more clinging to results. By understanding more and more precisely about different namas and rupas (of course this is mostly intellectual at the start), then sati and panna do develop and take care of themselves. Concentrating, labelling, fixing a particular object in mind or trying to be aware in any shape or form (including arranging a ‘special’ time or place for it) are all likely to have the opposite effect, i.e the effect of stronger clinging to self, imho. On the contrary, reading, considering and questioning as you’re doing here is very beneficial, I think. ..... L: >I have exhausted all my thoughts on concentration on Jon but I would be interested in whatever you have to say in regard to the questions I asked him. .... S: I think all your questions are good ones, Larry and they’ve elicited some very helpful answers from Jon, imho.I would especially recommend re-reading these posts of his: http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/m19762.html http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/m20104.html L: >Also I think a better understanding of concentration could improve learning in general. ..... S: I think the most valuable thing from these discussions about concentration is perhaps seeing how usually we take unwholesome concentration for wholesome concentration and how the clinging to it may improve some kinds of learning but is definitely not helpful for the development of satipatthana and may partly answer why panna doesn’t arise. I think we have to be very clear about the purpose of studying and hearing the Dhamma and be very sincere and honest about the nature of attachment at this moment. As Chris, pointed out, it’s not always what we want to hear and may condition dosa, but we have to remember the courage and good cheer that Azita often reminds us of. Metta and anumodaana with all your help with the Vism thread. Let me know if there's anything else I can add here and how this sounds. Sarah ===== 24311 From: icaro franca Date: Mon Aug 18, 2003 3:43am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Ethical justification for passivity in social action & politics Dear Mike: Mike:" Thanks for the added details--always appreciated!" -------------------------------------------------- Pas du tout, Number One! You must consider also that Sakadagami weakens the potentiality of the 9th and 10th types of Akusala consciousness by attenuating the two Fetters - Kamaraga (sense-desire) and Patigha (Hatred).The Anagami eradicates the above two types of consciousness as he has destroyed the aforesaid two Fetters. And the Arahat, as a friend of mine could say... is an other story!!! -------------------------------------------------- Mike: "p.s. Never mind your grammatical errors--how on > earth did you know enough > of the language to attack the Dhammasangali(sp?) and > Vism. in Paali?!" --------------------------------------------------- That´s not easy, Mike! First, even the best Pali-English Dicionary on net ( the Pali Text Society´s) has many lacks and deficienties. Other Pali Glossaries are so much poised on Doctrine to be straightly useful for everyone. In all these years surfing on net I´ve gathered a good bunch of sanskrit and Pali material: Winkner´s sanskrit grammar and dictionary (his lectures on Sandhi are precious!!!), many pali primers of many sources and procedences and some pali texts (ASCII files...terrible to read!)in personal ftp pages. With time and pacience - avec de la patiente on arrive a tout! - I could read the Dhammasangani. Because its simplicity and profundity of sound doctrine, I´ve ellected it my favourite work on Abhidhamma. Only now the www.tipitaka.org posted the complete Abhidhamma in good and clear reading fonts: I´ve downloaded already all of it and my pleasure on read it at a much more easily way is beyond any description I can do! Dhammasangani now rains down down down!!! Well, that it is, Number One. The Visuddhimagga I downloaded too from www.tipitaka.org, but it is much more hard to translate!!! Metta, Ícaro ===== Seize the time, there´s only minutes left to zero Just got a little taste, I gotta get some more, Just me and you 24312 From: Date: Mon Aug 18, 2003 1:13am Subject: Re: FW: [dsg] duty of soldiers Hi, Kom - In a message dated 8/18/03 4:58:25 AM Eastern Daylight Time, kom@a... writes: > Oh Howard (and others), > > I forgot to mention one more thing. Do you know that the Bodhisatta, one > who is developing all the 30 perfections to become a samma-sambuddha, cannot > keep any of the precepts perfectly except for that related to lying? > > How do you think we would do, comparing to the Bodhisatta? Even if we are > not in the wrong profession in this life, we might be in the next. Are you > sure you can get out of it? I think we can only do the best we can. > > kom =========================== Kom, let me clarify. I expect NO ONE who is not an arahant to be "perfect" in fundamental matters, and in matters involving the paramitas, even an arahant will fall short compared to a Buddha. I see goodness of some degree, arising at various times, in *all* sentient beings, and I do not, in my own mind, condemn anyone as fully evil - in fact, I very much agree that what a person "is" is what he/she is at the moment. One disclaimer with respect to that latter point, though, is that aeons of volitional decisions have created character patterns and accumulations which give a predominant "set" to a sentient being. There are kusala and akusala mind-moments arising in all sentient beings, regardless of occupational choice. This even goes as far as primary character patterns are concerned, so that there can be loving butchers and hateful medical doctors. But the Buddha zeroed in on various conventional activities of a person's life that loom large in their effect on the person him/herself and on society. These are key activities involving intention, and include speech, action, > "And what is right action? Abstaining from taking life, abstaining from > stealing, abstaining from unchastity. This is called right action." > >> -- SN XLV 8 > , and finally right livelihood. The last of these impacts all aspects of one's life, as we all know from first hand experience. The Buddha didn't set it off as one of a very few listed areas by accident. And the fact that truly vicious Ugandan dictator Idi Amin was, no doubt, kindly to some on some occasions and experienced some kusala cittas was quite insufficient to overcome the monstrous career choice that he made, that he fought to maintain, and that he executed with such terrible glee. It is not sufficient for an adequate evaluation for us to sit back in our armchairs and calmly note that there was no person there, but just a flow of cittas, some kusala and some not. That fails to reveal the full and urgent realiity, as I see it. With metta, Howard With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 24313 From: Date: Mon Aug 18, 2003 1:17am Subject: Re: [dsg] Disappearance of the Sasana Hi, Robert - In a message dated 8/18/03 6:07:13 AM Eastern Daylight Time, rjkjp1@y... writes: > Dear Howard , > I just wanted to let you know I appreciate your post and I'm thinking > about the points you bring up. I'll try to answer in a few days > Robert > ========================== Thank you for this! You continue to bolster my immense respect for you. Whether we are in agreement or not on various issues, you always take the time and make the effort to listen and consider carefully and to accept good intentions as good intentions. I appreciate this enormously. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 24314 From: m. nease Date: Mon Aug 18, 2003 6:13am Subject: Re: [dsg] duty of soldiers Hi Kom and Howard, Seems to me that the references on this thread referring to conventional, 'ongoing' samma-ajivo, right livelihood, are correct in terms of 'conventional truth' (vohaara-sacca), that is with regard to the conventional expressions in the pariyatti. This is all pa.n.natti (as lives, occupations, rebirths etc. are concepts, at least for practical purposes). References to pa.tipatti (practice) and pa.tivedha (attainment), though, are correct both in terms of vohaara-sacca and paramattha-sacca because they refer both to true concepts regarding ('ongoing') concepts and true concepts regarding (momentary) realities. So there is right livelihood that is conceptual (referring both to conventional occupation and to realities), right livelihood that is practical (pa.tipatti, a moment of abstinence from wrong livelihood) and right livelihood that is attainment (pa.tivedha, a moment of abstinence from wrong livelihood arising simultaneously with the other path-factors). Corrections welcome! mike ----- Original Message ----- From: Kom Tukovinit To: Sent: Monday, August 18, 2003 1:10 AM Subject: RE: [dsg] duty of soldiers > I don't think there is any danger in views that *match* the truths, views > that lead toward higher knowledge, relinquishment, and nibbana, but there > are dangers in views that don't. 24315 From: Date: Mon Aug 18, 2003 3:00am Subject: Re: [dsg] duty of soldiers Hi, Mike (and Kom) - Any disagreement I may have with you on the following is picayune, and so will left undiscussed. :-) With metta, Howard In a message dated 8/18/03 9:25:19 AM Eastern Daylight Time, mlnease@z... writes: > Hi Kom and Howard, > > Seems to me that the references on this thread referring to conventional, > 'ongoing' samma-ajivo, right livelihood, are correct in terms of > 'conventional truth' (vohaara-sacca), that is with regard to the > conventional expressions in the pariyatti. This is all pa.n.natti (as > lives, occupations, rebirths etc. are concepts, at least for practical > purposes). References to pa.tipatti (practice) and pa.tivedha (attainment), > though, are correct both in terms of vohaara-sacca and paramattha-sacca > because they refer both to true concepts regarding ('ongoing') concepts and > true concepts regarding (momentary) realities. So there is right livelihood > that is conceptual (referring both to conventional occupation and to > realities), right livelihood that is practical (pa.tipatti, a moment of > abstinence from wrong livelihood) and right livelihood that is attainment > (pa.tivedha, a moment of abstinence from wrong livelihood arising > simultaneously with the other path-factors). > > Corrections welcome! > > mike > > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 24316 From: icaro franca Date: Mon Aug 18, 2003 7:09am Subject: Re: [dsg] duty of soldiers Dear Mike: Mike: "Seems to me that the references on this thread > referring to conventional, > 'ongoing' samma-ajivo, right livelihood, are correct > in terms of > 'conventional truth' (vohaara-sacca), that is with > regard to the > conventional expressions in the pariyatti. This is > all pa.n.natti (as > lives, occupations, rebirths etc. are concepts, at > least for practical > purposes). References to pa.tipatti (practice) and > pa.tivedha (attainment), > though, are correct both in terms of vohaara-sacca > and paramattha-sacca > because they refer both to true concepts regarding > ('ongoing') concepts and > true concepts regarding (momentary) realities." ---------------------------------------------------- Respectfully butting in, Number One! Conventional truths - Sammuit-sacca - are defined as concepts of forms, groups of things, places, time, conceptualized images and so on. The main level of Samma-ajivo is above this, at Paramattha-sacca. Concepts of panatti, patipatti and pativeddha may be considered as Lokiya ( vijjnana, cetasika and rupa). While Sammuit-Sacca is a conventional truth as concept,it´s something that either makes known or is known. The Paramattha-Sacca IS ultimate truth as "really" exist in reality. There are ultimates in mind and matter: this includes the Octuple Noble Path and, of course, samma-ajivo. Corrections are welcome too !!! Metta, Ícaro ===== Seize the time, there´s only minutes left to zero Just got a little taste, I gotta get some more, Just me and you 24317 From: m. nease Date: Mon Aug 18, 2003 7:51am Subject: Re: [dsg] duty of soldiers Thanks, Howard, As you can see, now Icaro has me wondering--there may be LESS to the paali term 'ajivo' than I've ascribed to it. I look forward to reading more especially from suttas using specifically the terms samma- and miccha-ajivo. mike ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Monday, August 18, 2003 7:00 AM Subject: Re: [dsg] duty of soldiers > Hi, Mike (and Kom) - > > Any disagreement I may have with you on the following is picayune, and > so will left undiscussed. :-) 24318 From: m. nease Date: Mon Aug 18, 2003 7:47am Subject: Re: [dsg] duty of soldiers Hi Icaro, ----- Original Message ----- From: icaro franca To: Sent: Monday, August 18, 2003 7:09 AM Subject: Re: [dsg] duty of soldiers > Respectfully butting in, Number One! > > Conventional truths - Sammuit-sacca - are defined as > concepts of forms, groups of things, places, time, > conceptualized images and so on. Right-- > The main level of > Samma-ajivo is above this, at Paramattha-sacca. I may have been wrong about this--the sutta I was thinking of doesn't actually refer to ajivo, livelihood, but rather vaa.nijjo, trade or business. 'Trade' is clearly a concept--maybe ajivo (especially in the sense of a path factor) never is. In other words, these two are often used synonymously and that might be a big mistake in translation. So you're convinced that samma- and miccha-ajivo refer always, exclusively to paramattha dhammas and never to concepts (such as occupations)? > Concepts of panatti, patipatti and pativeddha may be > considered as Lokiya ( vijjnana, cetasika and rupa). > > While Sammuti-Sacca is a conventional truth as > concept,it´s something that either makes known or is > known. Right-- > The Paramattha-Sacca IS ultimate truth as > "really" exist in reality. There are ultimates in mind > and matter: this includes the Octuple Noble Path and, > of course, samma-ajivo. Understood. Thanks again! mike 24319 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Mon Aug 18, 2003 8:05am Subject: RE: FW: [dsg] duty of soldiers Dear Howard, > -----Original Message----- > From: upasaka@a... [mailto:upasaka@a...] > "is" is what he/she is at the moment. One disclaimer with respect to that > latter point, though, is that aeons of volitional decisions have created > character patterns and accumulations which give a predominant > "set" to a sentient > being. I think what is proximate has enormous influence regarding to how one turns out in this life. In the jataka story of the bodhisatta Jotipala, the Buddha was born into a family of wrong view. The commentaries said that, even if the perfection of the Buddha was like a big bon-fire, radiant into all the worlds, but in that life, it is like the fire being put out, only left with hardly-glowing coal, just being born into a family with the wrong views. Even when there was a sammasambuddha in that life, Jotipala didn't want to go to listen to the Buddha (and in fact said things that had results in his very last life) until his anagami friend made him realize how important it was to go. I certainly wouldn't equate somebody like Saddam Hussein to Mother Theresa, but what I am saying is that akusala is equivalent, and so is kusala. > right livelihood. The last of these impacts all aspects of one's > life, as we > all know from first hand experience. The Buddha didn't set it off > as one of a > very few listed areas by accident. And the fact that truly > vicious Ugandan > dictator Idi Amin was, no doubt, kindly to some on some occasions > and experienced > some kusala cittas was quite insufficient to overcome the > monstrous career > choice that he made, that he fought to maintain, and that he > executed with such > terrible glee. It is not sufficient for an adequate evaluation > for us to sit > back in our armchairs and calmly note that there was no person > there, but just > a flow of cittas, some kusala and some not. That fails to reveal > the full and > urgent realiity, as I see it. I see it as being true (regarding to the flow of cittas). What else is there but the realities now? Killing doesn't prevent one from developing panna, and even the killers should be given kindness and compassion. Take the example of the Buddha, without his great compassion, Angulimalla, the killers of 999 people, wouldn't have been able to achieve arahatship in his last life. We can realize that with the arising of kusala cittas, at that moment, there is ignorance that masks all realities --- the person cannot see that this is something not so nice. When we think about the defilements of others, we should see what is arising within ourselves. Is it kusala or akusala? Is it with panna or without? If we understand that this is mostly aversion (or even mana and self righteousness), then we are prone to worry less about other people's defilements. kom 24320 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Mon Aug 18, 2003 8:09am Subject: RE: FW: [dsg] duty of soldiers Hello all, > -----Original Message----- > From: Kom Tukovinit [mailto:kom@a...] > Sent: Monday, August 18, 2003 8:06 AM > We can realize that with the arising of kusala cittas, at that > moment, there is ignorance that masks all realities --- the > person cannot see that this is something not so nice. When we Ignorance strikes again!. This should say "the arising of akusala cittas." kom 24321 From: m. nease Date: Mon Aug 18, 2003 8:42am Subject: Asubha at Kaeng Kajan On one of the Kaeng Kajan tapes, in a discussion of 'asubha', Khun Sujin says that when ruupa is known as ruupa it is asubha because it is too short to be the object of pleasure. I do understand the point (I think), but doesn't sukkha-vedanaa arise and subside just as quickly as ruupa (actually, even more quickly)? So, while it lasts, isn't ruupa the object of sukkha-vedanaa? To everyone involved in getting these tapes to me, thanks again--I'm thoroughly enjoying listening to them over and over in the mornings while I paint. mike 24322 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Aug 18, 2003 10:07am Subject: FW: Co. Mahaaraahulovaadasutta, A series, no 12. ---------- Van: nina van gorkom Datum: Sun, 17 Aug 2003 16:15:33 +0200 Aan: Pali yahoo Onderwerp: Co. Mahaaraahulovaadasutta, A series, no 12. Commentary Mahaaraahulovaadasutta, no 12. (A series) A Mind like Space: Relevant Sutta passage: Commentary: na katthaci pati.t.thitoti pathaviipabbatarukkhaadiisu ekasmimpi na pati.t.thito, As to the expression, it is nowhere established, this means, it does not settle in one place, such as on the earth, on a mountain or in a tree, yadi hi pathaviya.m pati.t.thito bhaveyya, pathaviyaa bhijjamaanaaya saheva bhijjeyya, If it would settle on the earth, and the earth would be destroyed, it would be destroyed together with it, pabbate patamaane saheva pateyya, rukkhe chijjamaane saheva chijjeyya. and evenso, when the mountain would break down it would break down together with it, and when the tree would be cut it would be destroyed together with it. English: As to the expression, it is nowhere established, this means, it does not settle in one place, such as on the earth, on a mountain or in a tree. If it would settle on the earth, and the earth would be destroyed, it would be destroyed together with it, and evenso, when the mountain would break down it would break down together with it, and when the tree would be cut it would be destroyed together with it. Subcommentary: words: pati.t.thito: established nissito: dependent laggo: attached na pati.t.thitoti na nissito na laggo. As to the expression, not established, this means, not dependent, not attached. **** Nina 24323 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Aug 18, 2003 10:07am Subject: Re: [dsg] Kasina Meditation Question Dear Stephen M, Welcome here. We have another Stephen, so I add M. op 17-08-2003 04:39 schreef alpha16draconis op alpha16draconis@a...: I'm fairly certain this is just a stage or barrier or some natural process that results from kasina meditation. Have you ever heard anything like this? N:A difficult question to answer, Stephen. It is as difficult to tell whether someone else's citta is kusala or akusala. Moreover, I have not developed jhana myself. Suan advised you to study the Visuddhimagga, and, if you intend to base your samatha meditation on the old Theravada tradition this is the thing to do. Knowing that your teacher is a pupil of Ledi Sayadaw, I would think you intend to do this. I have a Book of Ledi Sayadaw: the Manuals of Buddhism, and he is very good at Abhidhamma. I just studied his summary of the five Nyamas: a certain fixed order of dhammas. This is one of the meanings of dhamma. Whatever arises needs the appropriate conditions for its arising. Very important, it helps us to understand more that there is no self who can control phenomena. This brings me to your observations: you have some experience of after images. This has conditions. It can be the result of former practice of concentration, even in a former life. When you study the Visuddhimagga you will learn about the right conditions for jhana. Jhana means great purity of citta, being temporarily freed from sense impressions and the akusala which is bound up with them. You have to lead a life compatible with the development of jhana, you have to live practically like a monk no sense pleasures like good food, distractions, sports, T.V. , listening to music, soccer matches, etc. As Jon pointed out, you have to sever the impediments to begin with: a home, relatives, possessions, students/subordinate, responsibilities, travel, colleagues and family, illness, formal study of the teachings. You have to live completely away from sense pleasures. Panna which knows precisely when kusala citta arises and when akusala citta is indispensable. We can so easily be lured by lobha and take for kusala what is subtle clinging. But certainly your teacher has explained that to you. When we open our eyes and are looking at something, there are already countless cittas with lobha arising and falling away. We are clinging to seeing, we like to be alive and to see. We are clinging to visible object and to images we think about after seeing. All this has to be known and realized. S: I was taught kasina meditation by the late Ven. U. Vimala of Burma > when he resided in Nashville, TN. in the early 1980's. He taught > several methods, but the one he taught me was to practice > concentration meditation first, then apply that concentration to > insight meditation. N: When you study the Visuddhimagga you will see that jhana can only be a base for insight when it is fully developed, when you have masteries (vasis) of jhana: entering and emerging at any time, entering different stages of jhana one after the other, in upward and in downward order. The Visuddhimagga does not teach that after the development of just some amount of concentration it can be a base for insight. At the same time the Visuddhimagga states how difficult access concentration and jhana are: only one in the hundred or thousand can attain it. Panna has to know a great deal: the difference between applied thinking and sustained thinking, and the other cetasikas which are jhanafactors. One cannot use any meditation subject or change it. For example: breath: it is a very subtle rupa conditioned by citta, (it is not just blowing) and it appears at the nosetip or upperlip. One cannot change this subject thinking that the movement of the abdomen is just as suitable. That is to say, if one wants to base one's practice on the old Theravada tradition. If one has subtle desire for jhana or progress in the development, it is so easy to become deluded and to take for kusala what is akusala. But maybe your teacher has pointed out this fact? The effects of concentration with lobha, and that is wrong concentration, may look similar to the effects of right concentration. Thus one may take for jhana what is not the real jhana: temporary freedom from desire and all akusala. Again great panna is needed to detect it all. It means also that we have to be very careful. If we take the wrong concentration for the right one it can have harmful effects, it can even be dangerous. Thus one has to weigh things up: if one cannot attain fully developed jhana and attain higher stages, acquire masteries of jhana, is it then worth while to go all the way and try to concentrate? One has to know the purpose of one's development and nobody else can tell you whether what you are doing is right or wrong. Nina. 24324 From: Date: Mon Aug 18, 2003 7:58am Subject: Re: [dsg] duty of soldiers Hi, Icaro (and Mike) - In a message dated 8/18/03 10:10:17 AM Eastern Daylight Time, icarofranca@y... writes: > Respectfully butting in, Number One! > > Conventional truths - Sammuit-sacca - are defined as > concepts of forms, groups of things, places, time, > conceptualized images and so on. The main level of > Samma-ajivo is above this, at Paramattha-sacca. > Concepts of panatti, patipatti and pativeddha may be > considered as Lokiya ( vijjnana, cetasika and rupa). > > While Sammuit-Sacca is a conventional truth as > concept,it´s something that either makes known or is > known. > The Paramattha-Sacca IS ultimate truth as > "really" exist in reality. There are ultimates in mind > and matter: this includes the Octuple Noble Path and, > of course, samma-ajivo. > Corrections are welcome too !!! > > Metta, Ícaro > > =========================== Yes, conventional discourse via concepts is for communication, within one's own mind, and mind-to-mind, but I do not think that paramattha dhammas constitute the whole of what is actual. I may be mistaken, but the relations among paramattha dhamma are also actual, and there are two ways of cognizing them: by pa~n~na, which doesn't hold strongly and consistently for too many of us, and via concepts which mentally bundle together interrelated paramattha dhammas. Thus it seems to me that so long as pa~n~na is not our primary means of knowing, we very much need to depend on concepts in order to apprehend truth. This, of course, makes us vulnerable to all the ignorance and reification that our conceptualization is subject to, but such is the life of the ordinary person. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 24325 From: Date: Mon Aug 18, 2003 8:09am Subject: Re: FW: [dsg] duty of soldiers Hi, Kom - I don't want to push this too far. I recognize that your position is probably way less extreme that it is striking me, and I KNOW that you are filled with good will. So please do not get the impression that I am "disapproving". I do, however, believe that there is danger involved in a position such as you are (moderately) expressing. It strikes me as kind of a Buddhist antinomianism. But perhaps it is best if we just agree to disagree on this one. (Your post follows below without further comment from me.) With metta, Howard In a message dated 8/18/03 11:06:28 AM Eastern Daylight Time, kom@a... writes: > > Dear Howard, > > >-----Original Message----- > >From: upasaka@a... [mailto:upasaka@a...] > > >"is" is what he/she is at the moment. One disclaimer with respect to that > >latter point, though, is that aeons of volitional decisions have created > >character patterns and accumulations which give a predominant > >"set" to a sentient > >being. > > I think what is proximate has enormous influence regarding to how one turns > out in this life. In the jataka story of the bodhisatta Jotipala, the > Buddha was born into a family of wrong view. The commentaries said that, > even if the perfection of the Buddha was like a big bon-fire, radiant into > all the worlds, but in that life, it is like the fire being put out, only > left with hardly-glowing coal, just being born into a family with the wrong > views. Even when there was a sammasambuddha in that life, Jotipala didn't > want to go to listen to the Buddha (and in fact said things that had results > in his very last life) until his anagami friend made him realize how > important it was to go. > > I certainly wouldn't equate somebody like Saddam Hussein to Mother Theresa, > but what I am saying is that akusala is equivalent, and so is kusala. > > > >right livelihood. The last of these impacts all aspects of one's > >life, as we > >all know from first hand experience. The Buddha didn't set it off > >as one of a > >very few listed areas by accident. And the fact that truly > >vicious Ugandan > >dictator Idi Amin was, no doubt, kindly to some on some occasions > >and experienced > >some kusala cittas was quite insufficient to overcome the > >monstrous career > >choice that he made, that he fought to maintain, and that he > >executed with such > >terrible glee. It is not sufficient for an adequate evaluation > >for us to sit > >back in our armchairs and calmly note that there was no person > >there, but just > >a flow of cittas, some kusala and some not. That fails to reveal > >the full and > >urgent realiity, as I see it. > > I see it as being true (regarding to the flow of cittas). What else is > there but the realities now? Killing doesn't prevent one from developing > panna, and even the killers should be given kindness and compassion. Take > the example of the Buddha, without his great compassion, Angulimalla, the > killers of 999 people, wouldn't have been able to achieve arahatship in his > last life. We can realize that with the arising of kusala cittas, at that > moment, there is ignorance that masks all realities --- the person cannot > see that this is something not so nice. When we think about the defilements > of others, we should see what is arising within ourselves. Is it kusala or > akusala? Is it with panna or without? If we understand that this is mostly > aversion (or even mana and self righteousness), then we are prone to worry > less about other people's defilements. > > kom > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 24326 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Mon Aug 18, 2003 1:09pm Subject: RE: FW: [dsg] duty of soldiers Hi Howard, > -----Original Message----- > From: upasaka@a... [mailto:upasaka@a...] > Sent: Monday, August 18, 2003 12:10 PM > To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com > Subject: Re: FW: [dsg] duty of soldiers > > > Hi, Kom - > > I don't want to push this too far. I recognize that your > position is > probably way less extreme that it is striking me, and I KNOW that you are > filled with good will. So please do not get the impression that I am > "disapproving". I do, however, believe that there is danger > involved in a position such as > you are (moderately) expressing. It strikes me as kind of a Buddhist > antinomianism. But perhaps it is best if we just agree to > disagree on this one. (Your > post follows below without further comment from me.) > > With metta, > Howard > Thanks for letting me know! kom 24327 From: icaro franca Date: Mon Aug 18, 2003 1:14pm Subject: Re: [dsg] duty of soldiers Dear Howard: Howard:" Yes, conventional discourse via concepts is > for communication, within > one's own mind, and mind-to-mind, but I do not think > that paramattha dhammas > constitute the whole of what is actual. I may be > mistaken, but the relations > among paramattha dhamma are also actual, and there > are two ways of cognizing > them: by pa~n~na, which doesn't hold strongly and > consistently for too many of > us, and via concepts which mentally bundle together > interrelated paramattha > dhammas." ----------------------------------------------------- That´s I´ve said in a recent post to you, uplifted Upasaka! The main dificulty with the Paramattha Dhammas - and other concepts directly linked to insight, is the own word "concept". One ought to take hand on Conventional Truths - Sammuit-sacca - to elaborate his own experience about insight. But there´s a difference between trying to express insight with conventional words and concepts and derive them exclusively by such concepts. When good Mike try to understand samma-ajivo - right livelihood - as a matter only of Conventional truth, he perhaps forgets that a place doesn´t make a occupation, or a concept doesn´t arise a real thing by itself. At a practical side, when the Vinaya states that making and selling remedies has a veto for the Sangha it isn´t only declaring a real fact, but also a conventional concept AND a bridge towards Nibbana - a Ultimate Truth. That´s my opinion and corrections are really welcome. ------------------------------------------------------ Howard: "Thus it seems to me that so long as pa~n~na > is not our primary means of > knowing, we very much need to depend on concepts in > order to apprehend truth. > This, of course, makes us vulnerable to all the > ignorance and reification that > our conceptualization is subject to, but such is the > life of the ordinary > person." ------------------------------------------------- Giving no shelter to superstitions, I dare to affirme that all truths in The Tipitaka are bridges towards Nibbana - for all persons! Metta, Ícaro ===== Seize the time, there´s only minutes left to zero Just got a little taste, I gotta get some more, Just me and you 24328 From: icaro franca Date: Mon Aug 18, 2003 1:20pm Subject: Re: [dsg] duty of soldiers Dear Mike: Mike: " Understood. > > Thanks again!" -------------------------------------------------- Don´t be sad, Number One! We all are on a conditioned world, and mistakes are inevitable! Mettaya, Ícaro :-) ===== Seize the time, there´s only minutes left to zero Just got a little taste, I gotta get some more, Just me and you 24329 From: christine_forsyth Date: Mon Aug 18, 2003 2:31pm Subject: 'to have no fear of the other world' Dear Group, Just a question about this sutta - why are 'ample food and drink' one of the four things that would cause one 'to have no fear of the other world'? metta and peace Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- Samyutta Nikaya (Sagathavagga) 1. Devatasamyutta 75 (5) Afraid <96> 232 "Why are so many people here afraid When the path has been taught with many bases? I ask you, O Gotama, broad of wisdom: On what would one take a stand To have no fear of the other world?" 233 "Having directed speech and mind rightly, Doing no evil deeds with the body, Dwelling at home with ample food and drink, Faithful, gentle, generous, amiable: When one stands on these four things, Standing firmly on the Dhamma One need not fear the other world." 24330 From: Date: Mon Aug 18, 2003 0:16pm Subject: Re: FW: [dsg] duty of soldiers Hi, Kom - In a message dated 8/18/03 4:11:20 PM Eastern Daylight Time, kom@a... writes: > I do, however, believe that there is danger > >involved in a position such as > >you are (moderately) expressing. It strikes me as kind of a Buddhist > >antinomianism. But perhaps it is best if we just agree to > >disagree on this one. (Your > >post follows below without further comment from me.) > > > >With metta, > >Howard > > > > Thanks for letting me know! > > kom > ======================= I'm writing in part to check that your closing line is a happily written one. I want you to know that I mean *absolutely* no offense, and that I have great respect for you. I just think we *may* be a bit too far apart on this issue to usefully pursue it much more. Perhaps I'm wrong in that. I certainly will continue with the thread if you think it useful to do so. I definitely DO understand what you are saying, and I think there is validity to it, but that it is incomplete. I see conventional truth, knowable via concept, as truth, but limited, and ultimate truth, knowable via pa~n~na, as truth that is perfect and direct. Reality involves both phenomena and interrelationships among them. Wisdom penetrates both of these directly, whereas concepts do it indirectly, by the creation of mental packages such as people, trees, etc. Wisdom, free of belief in beings, still, paradoxically, provides for love and compassion for beings, and ordinary conventional mentality does so by *believing* in truly existing beings. But a conceptual view that accepts nothing but paramattha dhammas, ignoring complexes of interrelated dhammas, and considers that people are totally non-existent fictions, not existing in any sense at all, is one which can, for some people, allow a view that no harm is ever done to any person regardless of what actions are taken - merely phenomena interacting with phenomena. Let me clarify what I mean here by an analogy: At one time in the United States, Africans were held in slavery and very badly treated. In order for people to tolerate this, there was propagated the view that these people were, in fact, subhuman, and thus didn't need to be treated as human beings. Do you see the analogy I am making? There is an important sense in which the statement that there is nothing but "phenomena interacting with phenomena" is true, but there is a sense in which it is misleading, and if that latter sense is not admitted as well, this can be morally dangerous. That is how I see the matter. In friendship, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 24331 From: Date: Mon Aug 18, 2003 0:20pm Subject: Re: [dsg] duty of soldiers Hi, Icaro - I like very much what you say in the following. With metta, Howard In a message dated 8/18/03 4:16:37 PM Eastern Daylight Time, icarofranca@y... writes: > > Dear Howard: > > Howard:" Yes, conventional discourse via concepts is > >for communication, within > >one's own mind, and mind-to-mind, but I do not think > >that paramattha dhammas > >constitute the whole of what is actual. I may be > >mistaken, but the relations > >among paramattha dhamma are also actual, and there > >are two ways of cognizing > >them: by pa~n~na, which doesn't hold strongly and > >consistently for too many of > >us, and via concepts which mentally bundle together > >interrelated paramattha > >dhammas." > > ----------------------------------------------------- > > That´s I´ve said in a recent post to you, uplifted > Upasaka! > The main dificulty with the Paramattha Dhammas - > and other concepts directly linked to insight, is the > own word "concept". One ought to take hand on > Conventional Truths - Sammuit-sacca - to elaborate his > own experience about insight. > But there´s a difference between trying to > express insight with conventional words and concepts > and derive them exclusively by such concepts. When > good Mike try to understand samma-ajivo - right > livelihood - as a matter only of Conventional truth, > he perhaps forgets that a place doesn´t make a > occupation, or a concept doesn´t arise a real thing by > itself. > At a practical side, when the Vinaya states that > making and selling remedies has a veto for the Sangha > it isn´t only declaring a real fact, but also a > conventional concept AND a bridge towards Nibbana - a > Ultimate Truth. That´s my opinion and corrections are > really welcome. > > ------------------------------------------------------ > > > Howard: "Thus it seems to me that so long as pa~n~na > >is not our primary means of > >knowing, we very much need to depend on concepts in > >order to apprehend truth. > >This, of course, makes us vulnerable to all the > >ignorance and reification that > >our conceptualization is subject to, but such is the > >life of the ordinary > >person." > > ------------------------------------------------- > > Giving no shelter to superstitions, I dare to > affirme that all truths in The Tipitaka are bridges > towards Nibbana - for all persons! > > Metta, > > Ícaro > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 24332 From: norakat147 Date: Mon Aug 18, 2003 4:41pm Subject: Re: Ethical justification for passivity in social action & politics Thanks Christine. The link to your post (how did you dig it up?) led me to discussions which cleared up alot of issued I had. This same inquiry has obviously been played out (at lenght) before (in 2001). Sarah made a great point responding to Robert Epstein; here are some comments from the posts for people to read: Rob: > We can't say that our purpose in life is to end suffering, and then > ignore people > in pain, because their brand of suffering is 'not the real kind'. If > Buddhists > don't work to insure human rights and end the *experience* of suffering in > all its > forms, we will wind up going very far down a very wrong path. This is the > kind of > thing that gives spiritual people a very bad reputation. Sarah: We don't have to ignore anyone in pain, but we know our limits and what we're able to do easily and contentedly. Like it said in the extract I quoted from the Vinaya recently, about monks helping the sick, one can help if it's within one's ability, if one knows the medicine and can do so with metta. ...For example, if we're sitting comfortably at home now, looking at messages and sipping tea, what's the use of thinking we should be helping refugees in Afghanistan? rob: > But I also certainly don't think that worrying about > something that we're in no position to fix is a proper use of one's > energy. That would also be nothing but an intellectual exercise. There can also be a lot of attachment, I find, to fixing problems and wrongs, usually with no understanding of realities or conditions. > Finally, the real suffering is caused by delusion and ignorance, > and on that I certainly agree. We're indeed fortunate to have a glimmer of the truth, even if it's forgotten most the time;-) ------------------------------ ... I would only add that I don't see any reason why we can't try to maintain this perspective while being available for the opportunities to end suffering, and to be committed to end suffering in all its forms, due to all the forms of ignorance that manifest in the world. ------------------------------ Thanks christine, sarah and everyone for your posts. metta, nori --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Hello Nori, > > I empathise with your feelings :-) It ie hard not to have a great > deal of righteous anger about the injustices in the world. I have > come to realise that all anger is unwholesome. I still do what I can > in my immediate vicinity, with situations and people I have contact > with, to show compassion and metta. People on this list used to > (and still do) talk about anatta and tell me to have awareness of > what is arising through the sense doors in this very moment. All the > rest is just stories, they would say. [They may not have known it, > but this only used to increase my dosa and frustration.] So I > marched, and signed petitions, wrote letters and went to meetings - > and no doubt will still do that. As well, my job as a hospital > crisis worker shows me suffering and injustice on a daily basis. I > think often of kamma and it's results, of dukkha and the way that > leads to its cessation. > Once I asked on this List, as you are doing, what the Buddha might > have thought of human rights abuses and injustice in the world. I > received a very helpful post from member Dan Dalthorp which you may > like to read: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/9513 > > Personally, I really doubt that any permanent change can happen on > this earth - greed, hate and delusion will always rule. The question > is How are we to Live? > > metta and peace, > Christine > ---The trouble is that you think you have time > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "norakat147" > wrote: > > mike: > > > > >Those who attack the troubles of the world on a social or > political > > >level attack the branches and leaves but never the roots--the > > >Buddhadhamma is unique in attacking the roots, whether by way of > > >ordination and jhaana or simply by way of di.t.thujukamma > > >(correction of one's views). For ordained or lay people, there is > > >no more (or even equally) honorable use of food, shelter, clothing > > >and/or medicine, in my opinion. > > > > > > > I guess there is nothing more honorable than attacking its roots. > > > > Its just that while I am spending most of my time and effort > > practicing dhamma to relieve my own suffering, I look around, and I > > see the world falling apart and going to hell. Corrupt, greedy, > > manipulative governments (e.g. our own) and corporations causing > > unnecessary suffering to the world; ecological disaster, famine, > etc. > > > > ...in the meantime I spend most of my time and effort to practice > > dhamma to relieve my own suffering. > > > > Sometimes I feel a little guilty and selfish, like I should be out > > there trying to do something about the latter problems i mentioned; > > this would, of course, cause me a great deal of stress so i don't > > even attempt it. > > > > nori 24333 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Mon Aug 18, 2003 5:35pm Subject: RE: FW: [dsg] duty of soldiers Dear Howard, > -----Original Message----- > From: upasaka@a... [mailto:upasaka@a...] > Sent: Monday, August 18, 2003 4:17 PM > I'm writing in part to check that your closing line is a happily > written one. I want you to know that I mean *absolutely* no > offense, and that I > have great respect for you. I just think we *may* be a bit too > far apart on this > issue to usefully pursue it much more. Perhaps I'm wrong in that. > I certainly > will continue with the thread if you think it useful to do so. I don't think you ever write anything to me that indicates disrespect, and I am not upset about this thread in anyway (not that I am not irritated by this little thing or that little thing, like this muscle pain that I have when I write, or the fact that we never seem to agree [haha, attachment in action]). In fact, I think the discussions may be helpful to both ourselves and others (either by saying or listening). > I definitely DO understand what you are saying, and I > think there is > validity to it, but that it is incomplete. I see conventional > truth, knowable > via concept, as truth, but limited, and ultimate truth, knowable > via pa~n~na, > as truth that is perfect and direct. Reality involves both phenomena and > interrelationships among them. Wisdom penetrates both of these > directly, whereas > concepts do it indirectly, by the creation of mental packages > such as people, > trees, etc. I think if we understand the differences between concepts and realities, then there is no problem. If we understand what we call a person is just an aggregate of realities, then there is no problem. However, I don't think we normally do, as the sakaya ditthi to take people as people have been accumulated for aeons, and hence, when we see ourselves being upset at something, it is almost always about concepts and not realities. You cannot be upset about a reality very long, as it doesn't last, but anger related to concepts stay as long as there are the mind that thinks about the concepts. Worse of all, the concepts more often than not are misguided (seeing dukha as sukha, seeing ugly as beatiful, see impermancence as permanence, see anatta as atta). > Wisdom, free of belief in beings, still, > paradoxically, provides for > love and compassion for beings, and ordinary conventional > mentality does so by > *believing* in truly existing beings. I wholeheartedly agree with the above statement. One with the most excellent wisdom of all, the Buddha, has the greatest compassion for all beings. Yet, he is not troubled by unwholesome realities of others: he taught that it only brings troubles and more sufferings, but he is not troubled by it, because (I think) it is ultimately, realities brought about by conditions. > But a conceptual view that accepts > nothing but paramattha dhammas, ignoring complexes of > interrelated dhammas, and > considers that people are totally non-existent fictions, not > existing in any > sense at all, is one which can, for some people, allow a view > that no harm is > ever done to any person regardless of what actions are taken - > merely phenomena > interacting with phenomena. It certainly can, but a person with such views doesn't understand causes and consequences. When there is dhatu hitting dhatu, there is not only rupa that is affected, but mentality, both bodily and mental pain, results from such action. Furthermore, such action, conditioned by voilition, will give results. A person who doesn't undertstand this would be compassionless regarding to other people. > Let me clarify what I mean here by an > analogy: At > one time in the United States, Africans were held in slavery and > very badly > treated. In order for people to tolerate this, there was > propagated the view that > these people were, in fact, subhuman, and thus didn't need to be > treated as > human beings. Do you see the analogy I am making? There is an > important sense > in which the statement that there is nothing but "phenomena > interacting with > phenomena" is true, but there is a sense in which it is > misleading, and if that > latter sense is not admitted as well, this can be morally > dangerous. That is > how I see the matter. > I can agree that such seeming "truths" can be objects of the consciousness resulting in unwise consideration and provokes defilements. However, I don't see that everyone who sees thus are people compassionless, but some are in fact the people most compassionate to others because they truly see why others are suffering, both in the more conventional, and most ultimate way (that all the kandhas are suffering). Compassion, aided by wisdom knowing things as they are, is the strongest compassion of all. kom 24334 From: Date: Mon Aug 18, 2003 2:26pm Subject: Re: FW: [dsg] duty of soldiers Hi, Kom - I'm *very* glad that I pursued this a bit further. I agree with what you write here, differing only in emphasis, I think. We are much closer in view that I originally thought. This makes me pleased, but much moreso does our being friends make me pleased! (Even though it's just phenomena interacting with phenomena! ;-) With metta, Howard In a message dated 8/18/03 8:37:19 PM Eastern Daylight Time, kom@a... writes: > Dear Howard, > > >-----Original Message----- > >From: upasaka@a... [mailto:upasaka@a...] > >Sent: Monday, August 18, 2003 4:17 PM > > > I'm writing in part to check that your closing line is a happily > >written one. I want you to know that I mean *absolutely* no > >offense, and that I > >have great respect for you. I just think we *may* be a bit too > >far apart on this > >issue to usefully pursue it much more. Perhaps I'm wrong in that. > >I certainly > >will continue with the thread if you think it useful to do so. > > I don't think you ever write anything to me that indicates disrespect, and I > am not upset about this thread in anyway (not that I am not irritated by > this little thing or that little thing, like this muscle pain that I have > when I write, or the fact that we never seem to agree [haha, attachment in > action]). In fact, I think the discussions may be helpful to both ourselves > and others (either by saying or listening). > > > > I definitely DO understand what you are saying, and I > >think there is > >validity to it, but that it is incomplete. I see conventional > >truth, knowable > >via concept, as truth, but limited, and ultimate truth, knowable > >via pa~n~na, > >as truth that is perfect and direct. Reality involves both phenomena and > >interrelationships among them. Wisdom penetrates both of these > >directly, whereas > >concepts do it indirectly, by the creation of mental packages > >such as people, > >trees, etc. > > I think if we understand the differences between concepts and realities, > then there is no problem. If we understand what we call a person is just an > aggregate of realities, then there is no problem. However, I don't think we > normally do, as the sakaya ditthi to take people as people have been > accumulated for aeons, and hence, when we see ourselves being upset at > something, it is almost always about concepts and not realities. You cannot > be upset about a reality very long, as it doesn't last, but anger related to > concepts stay as long as there are the mind that thinks about the concepts. > Worse of all, the concepts more often than not are misguided (seeing dukha > as sukha, seeing ugly as beatiful, see impermancence as permanence, see > anatta as atta). > > >Wisdom, free of belief in beings, still, > >paradoxically, provides for > >love and compassion for beings, and ordinary conventional > >mentality does so by > >*believing* in truly existing beings. > > I wholeheartedly agree with the above statement. One with the most > excellent wisdom of all, the Buddha, has the greatest compassion for all > beings. Yet, he is not troubled by unwholesome realities of others: he > taught that it only brings troubles and more sufferings, but he is not > troubled by it, because (I think) it is ultimately, realities brought about > by conditions. > > >But a conceptual view that accepts > >nothing but paramattha dhammas, ignoring complexes of > >interrelated dhammas, and > >considers that people are totally non-existent fictions, not > >existing in any > >sense at all, is one which can, for some people, allow a view > >that no harm is > >ever done to any person regardless of what actions are taken - > >merely phenomena > >interacting with phenomena. > > It certainly can, but a person with such views doesn't understand causes and > consequences. When there is dhatu hitting dhatu, there is not only rupa > that is affected, but mentality, both bodily and mental pain, results from > such action. Furthermore, such action, conditioned by voilition, will give > results. A person who doesn't undertstand this would be compassionless > regarding to other people. > > >Let me clarify what I mean here by an > >analogy: At > >one time in the United States, Africans were held in slavery and > >very badly > >treated. In order for people to tolerate this, there was > >propagated the view that > >these people were, in fact, subhuman, and thus didn't need to be > >treated as > >human beings. Do you see the analogy I am making? There is an > >important sense > >in which the statement that there is nothing but "phenomena > >interacting with > >phenomena" is true, but there is a sense in which it is > >misleading, and if that > >latter sense is not admitted as well, this can be morally > >dangerous. That is > >how I see the matter. > > > > I can agree that such seeming "truths" can be objects of the consciousness > resulting in unwise consideration and provokes defilements. However, I > don't see that everyone who sees thus are people compassionless, but some > are in fact the people most compassionate to others because they truly see > why others are suffering, both in the more conventional, and most ultimate > way (that all the kandhas are suffering). Compassion, aided by wisdom > knowing things as they are, is the strongest compassion of all. > > kom > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 24335 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Mon Aug 18, 2003 7:21pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Is solitude not dukkha? As well as absence of love and friendship? Hi Sarah, This is how I see it: Living with husband, or wife, or girlfriend, or boyfriend, or in a house crowded with children and possession is attachment. To live alone in solitude is to give up that attachment. And to give up that attachment, one is to live alone in solitude. Let me use the analogy of smoking. Addiction to nicoltine propels one keep smoking as a habit. Unless one sees that smoking is unhealthy to self and desires to live healthy, one would just keep smoking. Without actually refraining from smoking, addiction to nicoltine would never be eradicated. Now, refraining from smoking does not necessarily mean that one's addiction to nicoltine is completely eradicated. However, refraining from smoking is necessary to eradicate the addiction to nicoltine. One might think that "I will stop smoking when addiction to nicoltine is eradicated". How is addiction to nicoltine to be eradicated? One has to stop smoking. Ignorance, taints, and craving are like addiction to nicoltine. Smoking is like living with husband, or wife, or girlfriend, or boyfriend, or in a house crowded with children and possession, enjoying various sensual pleasure, or commiting various unwholesome actions in body, speech, and mind. They are impure, inconducive to the eradication of ignorance, taints, and craving. Refraining from smoking is like living alone in solitude, secluding from various sensual pleasure, and refraining from unwholesome actions in body, speech, and mind. Comments are appreciated. Peace, Victor 24336 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Aug 18, 2003 9:16pm Subject: Re: [dsg] right and wrong livelihood Dear Mike and Kom, op 18-08-2003 01:48 schreef m. nease op mlnease@z...: > Hi Kom, > Well--said! Especially: > >> Personally, when I break things down moment by moment, my life is >> way easier. I don't take myself as a good person or a bad person, and I >> do the same in regard to others. >> I have wrong livelihood whenever I >> commit akusala kamma in connection to my job, and not when I >> refrain. Other people are the same. No people - only realities flow on >> uninterrupted.> N: Yes, very good, it helps. It helps not to be upset when others (governments!) are doing things wrong, not to judge them. No people - only realities flow on > uninterrupted.> Nina. 24337 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Aug 18, 2003 9:16pm Subject: Re: [dsg] duty of soldiers Hi Icaro, op 18-08-2003 03:07 schreef icaro franca op icarofranca@y...: > As a matter of fact - at least at Theravada! - > only real Bhikkhus are real good buddhists! N: And real good buddhists are bhikkhus in a sense, as I mentioned before. All those who practise the eightfold Path, live the "brahman life". Nina. 24338 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Aug 18, 2003 9:16pm Subject: Re: [dsg] duty of soldiers Dear Kom and Howard, op 18-08-2003 10:57 schreef Kom Tukovinit op kom@a...: > Oh Howard (and others), > > I forgot to mention one more thing. Do you know that the Bodhisatta, one > who is developing all the 30 perfections to become a samma-sambuddha, cannot > keep any of the precepts perfectly except for that related to lying? N: Remember the Harita Jataka, he fell in love with the queen and did not engage in lying about it. Nina. 24339 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Aug 18, 2003 9:16pm Subject: Pali puzzles Dear Jim, Vis Subco, 4: the child without discrimination: asa~njaatabyavahaarabuddhi: haara is string, but: byava? tambaka.msaadimayo: tambaka: copper coloured. Thank you, Nina. 24340 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Aug 18, 2003 9:16pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Asubha at Kaeng Kajan Dear Mike, op 18-08-2003 17:42 schreef m. nease op mlnease@z...: > On one of the Kaeng Kajan tapes, in a discussion of 'asubha', Khun Sujin > says that when ruupa is known as ruupa it is asubha because it is too short > to be the object of pleasure. N: The point was: what arises and falls away is not attractive, how can it be? She said this also at other times. We see as pleasant what is not pleasant (asubha), one of the vipallaasas. Sarah discussed this with Frank who had a hard time with this one. M:I do understand the point (I think), but > doesn't sukkha-vedanaa arise and subside just as quickly as ruupa (actually, > even more quickly)? So, while it lasts, isn't ruupa the object of > sukkha-vedanaa? N: Yes. But this was not the point, see above. M: To everyone involved in getting these tapes to me, thanks again--I'm > thoroughly enjoying listening to them over and over in the mornings while I > paint. N: Happy painting! Nina. 24341 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Mon Aug 18, 2003 11:26pm Subject: RE: [dsg] 'to have no fear of the other world' Dear Christine, The note given by B. Bodhi is: Spks interprets "rightly directed speech and mind" and "doing no evil deeds with the body" as the primary factors of purification, and takes the four qualities mentioned in pada d to be the "four things" on which one should stand. But it also suggests another interpretation: right bodily, verbal, and mental conduct are the first three things, and the four qualities in pada d taken together are the fourth. The first alternative sounds more plausible. kom > -----Original Message----- > From: christine_forsyth [mailto:cforsyth@v...] > Sent: Monday, August 18, 2003 2:31 PM > To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [dsg] 'to have no fear of the other world' > > > Dear Group, > > Just a question about this sutta - why are 'ample food and drink' one > of the four things that would cause one 'to have no fear of the other > world'? > > metta and peace > Christine > ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- > > Samyutta Nikaya (Sagathavagga) 1. Devatasamyutta 75 (5) Afraid <96> > > 232 > "Why are so many people here afraid > When the path has been taught with many bases? > I ask you, O Gotama, broad of wisdom: > On what would one take a stand > To have no fear of the other world?" > > 233 > "Having directed speech and mind rightly, > Doing no evil deeds with the body, > Dwelling at home with ample food and drink, > Faithful, gentle, generous, amiable: > When one stands on these four things, > Standing firmly on the Dhamma > One need not fear the other world." > 24342 From: Sarah Date: Tue Aug 19, 2003 1:04am Subject: Another meaning of Dhamma?- 'correctness in welcome' Dear Nina, You encouraged me to post from another section from Buddhaghosa's Commentary (Comy) to the Parinibbana Sutta. The following comes from Ch V, 'On the Wonderful Qualities of Ananda’. I found this passage very interesting and wasn't familiar myself with this meaning of Dhamma as referring to 'correctness in welcome'. In Walshe’s translation of the Digha Nikaya, the part of the sutta it relates to is on p.265. In Sister Vajira and Francis Story’s transl (wheel) of the sutta, it is on p.75. We read about the joy bhukkhus, bhikkhunis, laymen and laywomen alike experienced when they saw and heard Ananda. For the Pali, see Sv11, 585, 15-17 Comy: 15. “....’then the Blessed One addressed the monks’, broaching the topic of the Venerable Ananda’s qualities as if he were spreading out the great earth, expanding the sky....... .......’Wise’: skilful. ‘Learned’: expert in the aggregates (khandha), elements (dhaatu), and spheres (aayatana). 16. ‘The assembly of monks...for the purpose of seeing Ananda’....... ........’Delighted’ (attamanaa): with their own minds, with satisfied mind, thinking, “What we see [dasana.m] fits what we have heard.” ‘The DHAMMA’ [S:my caps, as in text: ‘Ananda talks Dhamma to them’] means correctness in welcome, saying things like; “Friend, I hope that you are well [lit. “Friend, I hope that is is bearable (of a disease)”]; I hope that you are all right; I hope that you are doing your work [kamma] with proper attention [yoniso manisikaare]; I hope you are fulfilling your duties towards your teachers and preceptors.” In this context he also makes the following distinction in the case of nuns, saying, “Do the sisters conduct themselves according to the eight important rules (a.t.tha garu-dhammaa)?” With male followers. He does not receive them by saying, “Welcome, disciple. Isn’t your head or body hurting at all? Are your sons and brothers well?” But he does thus: “Friends, how are you observing the three refuges and the five precepts? Are you observing the eight Uposathas a month? Do you fulfil the duty of supporting your mother and father? Do you take care of righteous ascetics and brahmins?” He said the same thing to female followers.” ..... S: The Buddha then makes 'a comparison of Ananda Thera with a universal monarch' and in the commentary we read examples about how such a monarch speaks and welcomes various people appropriately, such as kings, brahmins, householders and ascetics. Householders are welcomed by "My dears, are you not oppressed by the use of force or taxation from the court? Does the [rain] god rightfully supply showers? Is the harvest a good one?" Brahmins are welcomed with a queery about whether they are "receiving sacrificial fees or clothes or a brown cow?"! I hope this is helpful. I have many other passages marked and will try to introduce some of them when I have a chance. Metta, Sarah ====== 24343 From: Sarah Date: Tue Aug 19, 2003 1:31am Subject: Re: [dsg] duty of soldiers Hi Mike (Suan, Icaro & All), --- "m. nease" wrote: > So there is right > livelihood > that is conceptual (referring both to conventional occupation and to > realities), right livelihood that is practical (pa.tipatti, a moment of > abstinence from wrong livelihood) and right livelihood that is > attainment > (pa.tivedha, a moment of abstinence from wrong livelihood arising > simultaneously with the other path-factors). ..... As I see it, whilst the Buddha used conventional language in the suttas and Vinaya, this is always pointing to paramattha dhammas as Kom and Icaro have indicated. There are no other ‘realities’. Concepts by nature don’t ‘exist’. So even if kamma, accumulations or right livelihood are used in a general or conventional manner, irrespective of our understanding, they always point to absolute realities. I think we sometimes use them as a kind of ‘shorthand’, but so easily misunderstand because of our accumulated wrong views. As the others indicated, right livelihood as a path factor only refers to a moment of abstaining from wrong livelihood when the citta (consciousness)is also accompanied by other mundane or supramundane path factors. You asked for some textual references and I’d be glad if you would look at these posts I wrote (mostly to Ken H and Andrew from memory, containing Abhidhamma references: from U.P. - Right Livelihood 17634, 17642, 17679, 18114 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/17634 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/17642 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/17679 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/18114 I’ll be glad to hear any corrections or comments as usual from you or anyone. Maybe Suan or Icaro have other references I haven’t given. Suan, I’m glad to see you around again with your comments. I think I never directly thanked you for your very helpful and detailed translation on the Sabba sutta (The All) and commentary which is saved in UP under ‘Sabba Sutta’.Let us know if you do any others. I’d like to see the one James mentioned recently that follows soon after the Sabba Sutta: ‘On Fire’ or ‘Burning’. Sorry, that wasn’t meant to be a hint;-) Metta, Sarah ===== 24344 From: christine_forsyth Date: Tue Aug 19, 2003 2:01am Subject: Re: Ethical justification for passivity in social action & politics Hello Nori, and all, I'm glad you found my post helpful. I hope you had a happy time exploring the other posts that it led to. One thing I learned to do a couple of years ago, was to save any posts I considered extremely helpful in my favourites folder. Dan's was one of these. Many of the posts seen by the Moderators as helpful are saved under the relevant headings in Useful Posts. Click on http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/ and then click on the fourth link down "Useful Posts". I think you will also find Dan's post 9513 under the heading of Human Rights. metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "norakat147" wrote: > Thanks Christine. > > The link to your post (how did you dig it up?) led me to discussions > which cleared up alot of issued I had. This same inquiry has > obviously been played out (at lenght) before (in 2001). > > Sarah made a great point responding to Robert Epstein; here are some > comments from the posts for people to read: 24345 From: Sarah Date: Tue Aug 19, 2003 2:14am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Ethical justification for passivity in social action & politics Hi Nori, --- norakat147 wrote: > Thanks Christine. > > The link to your post (how did you dig it up?) led me to discussions > which cleared up alot of issued I had. This same inquiry has > obviously been played out (at lenght) before (in 2001). .... I’ll leave Chris to respond or not to her system for ‘digging up’ (I know she’s very organised for a start;-)) Just a couple more suggestions for you and any newcomers in this regard: 1. Most the archives are backed up on escribe (not the first X months - forget when it started. Also there have been some glitches when escribe broke down). It’s quite easy to do a search there if one thinks of the right word, such as ‘ethical’ or ‘livelihood’. Once a message is opened, you can follow the thread given at the end of it. http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/ 2. RobM has the entire yahoo archives backed up for us and Jon will send anyone a disc (up to about 3mths ago)which can be searched. Personally, I find this too complicated and slower for searches, but I think RobM and Jon use it. 3. Some key posts (a biased selection) can be found at this link: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/Useful_Posts If you go down to ‘compassion’, for example, or ‘human rights’, you can read the messages and follow the threads to other posts at the end of them. ..... Nori, you’ve read some of my old posts (thank you!) and I think it will be obvious that like Chris, I empathise with your questions which have a very familiar ring to them. As you’ll have possibly come across, a very typical early conversation I had with Khun Sujin would be along the lines of: ***** Sarah: When I’m sitting here relaxing and listening to the Dhamma, it’s difficult for me not to feel guilty that I’m not helping the Cambodian refugees [in the 70s]....... Sujin: Khun Sarah, you think too much. Now there is seeing and visible object and thinking to be known.... Sarah: But, but.... Sujin: Panna (right understanding) at the present moment is the greatest kusala (wholesomeness). ***** Sometime, I’ll try to find that particular tape and give an exact tapescript;-) ..... Nori:> ... I would only add that I don't see any reason why we can't try to > maintain this perspective while being available for the opportunities > to end suffering, and to be committed to end suffering in all its > forms, due to all the forms of ignorance that manifest in the world. > > ------------------------------ Sarah: Again, I understand. Again, I think it comes down to the present reality, otherwise it’s just thinking about noble causes and ideals. If someone is suffering around us, there can be momentary compassion and assistance. I realise now that so much of what I used to take for being good intentions and so on had very mixed mind-states. Only panna can know. One moment at a time, I think. It’s so easy to delude ourselves that if the ‘cause’ is good (and that includes reading/writing/listening to dhamma) that the mind-states must be good;-) I’d be glad if you looked at some of those other posts under compassion and if you have any further comments. No need to agree at all. Metta, Sarah ====== 24346 From: Sarah Date: Tue Aug 19, 2003 2:19am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Ethical justification for passivity in social action & politics Hi Chris, --- christine_forsyth wrote: > Hello Nori, and all, > > I'm glad you found my post helpful. I hope you had a happy time > exploring the other posts that it led to. One thing I learned to do > a couple of years ago, was to save any posts I considered extremely > helpful in my favourites folder. .... Just seen your post - efficient as I was saying. Pls keep sharing your favourites folder too. Metta, Sarah ===== 24347 From: icaro franca Date: Tue Aug 19, 2003 3:20am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Ethical justification for passivity in social action & politics Hi Christine: Chris:"One thing > I learned to do > a couple of years ago, was to save any posts I > considered extremely > helpful in my favourites folder. Dan's was one of > these." ---------------------------------------------------- Good Idea!!!!!!!!!!!!! This will be very useful: stocking some lessons of the Pali group and dsg posts (mainly about the Visuddhimagga)will do it!!! Metta, Ícaro ===== Seize the time, there´s only minutes left to zero Just got a little taste, I gotta get some more, Just me and you 24348 From: christine_forsyth Date: Tue Aug 19, 2003 3:33am Subject: *** FOR SUKIN **** Dear Sukin (and Azita), Sorry to use dsg for this - Just to say I AM replying to your emails - I don't understand why you are not receiving them. If all else fails, please try me at the hospital: christine_forsyth@h... Best, Chris 24349 From: icaro franca Date: Tue Aug 19, 2003 3:36am Subject: Re: [dsg] duty of soldiers Hi Nina: > N: And real good buddhists are bhikkhus in a sense, > as I mentioned before. > All those who practise the eightfold Path, live the > "brahman life". --------------------------------------------------- Nina, could you mind me a question ? About laypersons: are there a "sangha" for them (brotherhoods, orders, guilds, lodges, etc)? I am thinking on an analogy with the Roman Catholic Church: there are monasteries, parishes, etc,for priests, monks and nuns, and orders like Santiago de Compostella´s, Carmel´s, the old Chivalry orders...that are formed by christian laypersons as members. Is the Theravada buddhism alike ? I´ve saw some photos of laypersons at Thailand, Sri Lanka, Myanmar, wearing a white robe or somewhat... is my analogy reasonable ? Metta, Ícaro > Nina. ===== Seize the time, there´s only minutes left to zero Just got a little taste, I gotta get some more, Just me and you 24350 From: eaglenarius Date: Tue Aug 19, 2003 3:37am Subject: Killing responsibility Hi All, When I was small (may be 5 years old), my hobby is killing insects. I didnot feel any guilty in that bad act. After I know Buddha dhamma, I don't do it anymore, but I feel afraid of the consequences. Do we have to bear the consequences of bad act that we had done when we were a small child which did not understand this karmic law ? I appreciate very much, your advise. Thanks, Eaglenarius 24351 From: Sarah Date: Tue Aug 19, 2003 3:40am Subject: Re: [dsg] *** FOR SUKIN **** Hi Sukin (& Azita), --- christine_forsyth wrote: > Dear Sukin (and Azita), > > Sorry to use dsg for this - > Just to say I AM replying to your emails - .... Hope DSG is going to receive some mail from you too;-)That way, we all share your pearls of wisdom;-) Sukin, what are your latest reflections on the use of labels, terms, Pali and other aspects you raised when we were in Bkk. Would be great if you could introduce the topic in a simple way. Metta, Sarah ====== 24352 From: icaro franca Date: Tue Aug 19, 2003 4:09am Subject: Re: [dsg] Killing responsibility Fala Belo !!!! -------------------------------------------------- eaglenarius: "When I was small (may be 5 years old), my hobby is > killing insects. I didnot > feel any guilty in that bad act. After I know Buddha > dhamma, I don't do it > anymore, but I feel afraid of the consequences. Do > we have to bear the > consequences of bad act that we had done when we > were a small child which > did not understand this karmic law ?" ----------------------------------------------------- One of the many mistakes about Kammic law is that it deals only with cause and effect: for example, you go to a camping at the Himalayas and, while sitting inside your tent, with the cold wind blowing outside, you ruthlessly kill a hundred louses at your clothes... and with this unmerciful act you manage to invoke the Kammic law! When you are back to civilization, at a sunny day, when you are peacefully walking on the streets, suddenly you are ran over by a hundred giant louses! Kamma law fulfilled !!! Not at all. Human acts can be Kusala or Akusala. If you think that human deals with reality are a matter of Citta and cetasika, nama and rupa, with no self at the guidance of the process, you will perceive that the so called "Kamma Law" is not cause-and-effect at direct way: it´s not a matter of Crime-and-Punishment, but better a question about what are the real components of our acts, our thoughts and how these state of affairs will develop ahead in our lives. That´s my humble opinion. Corrections are welcome. Metta, ícaro ===== Seize the time, there´s only minutes left to zero Just got a little taste, I gotta get some more, Just me and you 24353 From: Sarah Date: Tue Aug 19, 2003 4:09am Subject: Re: [dsg] Asubha at Kaeng Kajan Hi Mike, --- "m. nease" wrote: > On one of the Kaeng Kajan tapes, in a discussion of 'asubha', Khun Sujin > says that when ruupa is known as ruupa it is asubha because it is too > short > to be the object of pleasure. I do understand the point (I think), but > doesn't sukkha-vedanaa arise and subside just as quickly as ruupa > (actually, > even more quickly)? So, while it lasts, isn't ruupa the object of > sukkha-vedanaa? .... I understand your (good) point, I think. I forget the part of the discussion, but as I understand, just because rupa is the object of sukkha-vedanaa, doesn’t mean it has to be taken for pleasurable or ‘subha’ (with or without wrong view) by following akusala javana cittas in the sense door and mind door processes. The anagami or arahant still experiences rupa with sukkha-vedanaa, but no more sanna and citta vipallasa (perversions) marking it as being pleasurable or beautiful, because panna has been developed to such a degree to fully comprehend its true nature as being anicca, dukkha, anatta AND asubha. Of course the ditthi vipallasa with regard to taking asubha for subha was eradicated by the sotapanna. Does that answer it? I wrote before to Frank and others (note Victor, in this kind of context of writing to more than one person, I often use the third person too;-)): “As I understand, sometimes when we read about asubha and asubha sanna, it is referring to the parts of the body as in the cemetery contemplations, when the foulness of the body is used as object of samatha (asubha-kammatthana) as Frank discussed. However, when we are discussing the vipallasas, the meaning is not confined to parts of the body at all. If we look at the computer and think it’s a nice colour or preferable to the colour of the wall, there is clinging (with or without wrong view) to beauty in the foul. Hence, sanna and citta vipallasa with regard to taking what is asubha (foul) for subha (beautiful) is only eradicated by the anagami along with the attachment to sense pleasures .” ***** > To everyone involved in getting these tapes to me, thanks again--I'm > thoroughly enjoying listening to them over and over in the mornings > while I > paint. ..... Very glad you’re enjoying them and painting while you listen to Dhamma sounds like very right livelihood to me;-) I think they’re quite a good set because Jon was semi-editing as he recorded (the quality may not be the best though as it was just his little hand tape-recorder). If anyone else would like a copy of these tapes (many topics relating to DSG discussions, but probably more comprehensible to those who have been around for sometime or are familiar with some of the Abhidhamma terms)- pls let me know off-list. These and other tapes going back for decades (mostly unedited) are now available either in cassette form or MP3. If anyone wishes to help with any editing, I can also pass that on too. Mike, some of the discussions Nina was referring to are in these posts: Vipallasa (Perversions, Distortions) 10928, 11471, 11514, 14861 Metta, Sarah ===== 24354 From: Date: Tue Aug 19, 2003 0:41am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Is solitude not dukkha? As well as absence of love and friendsh... Hi, Victor - In a message dated 8/18/03 10:22:47 PM Eastern Daylight Time, yu_zhonghao@y... writes: > > Hi Sarah, > > This is how I see it: > Living with husband, or wife, or girlfriend, or boyfriend, or in a > house crowded with children and possession is attachment. > > To live alone in solitude is to give up that attachment. And to > give up that attachment, one is to live alone in solitude. > > Let me use the analogy of smoking. > > Addiction to nicoltine propels one keep smoking as a habit. > > Unless one sees that smoking is unhealthy to self and desires to > live healthy, one would just keep smoking. > > Without actually refraining from smoking, addiction to nicoltine > would never be eradicated. > > Now, refraining from smoking does not necessarily mean that one's > addiction to nicoltine is completely eradicated. > > However, refraining from smoking is necessary to eradicate the > addiction to nicoltine. One might think that "I will stop smoking > when addiction to nicoltine is eradicated". How is addiction to > nicoltine to be eradicated? One has to stop smoking. > > Ignorance, taints, and craving are like addiction to nicoltine. > > Smoking is like living with husband, or wife, or girlfriend, or > boyfriend, or in a house crowded with children and possession, > enjoying various sensual pleasure, or commiting various unwholesome > actions in body, speech, and mind. They are impure, inconducive to > the eradication of ignorance, taints, and craving. > > Refraining from smoking is like living alone in solitude, secluding > from various sensual pleasure, and refraining from unwholesome > actions in body, speech, and mind. > > Comments are appreciated. > > Peace, > Victor > ============================== It is true that removal of what one may crave or be attached to may frequently make detachment easier, but, for some people, it may actually worsen the craving. Ultimately, it is what happens in one's mind that is critical. Also, another perspective is that the roots of craving may lie dormant and unnoticed in the complete absence of what one craves, and what one doesn't see one doesn't deal with. There is one more point that might be made that also could give a balancing perspective, I think. The Buddha established *communities* of monks and nuns (not primarily recommending continual seclusion in the life of a hermit) with people living together to share in the holy life and to assist each other. The opportunities for attachments of various sorts certainly present themselves in such a set-up, but the countervailing gains are obviously sufficient for him to have established this lifestyle. Thus, my point is that social solitude, while often very useful, is not a sine qua non for successful practice. In fact, even married laypersons with children, at the Buddha's time and now, have been known to move beyond spiritual ground zero. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 24355 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Tue Aug 19, 2003 6:06am Subject: Vism.EngPali.XIV, 7 Vism.EngPali.XIV, 7 7. What are its characteristic, function, manifestation and proximate cause? Understanding has the characteristic of penetrating the individual essences of states.(3) Its function is to abolish the darkness of delusion, which conceals the individual essences of states. It is manifested as non-delusion. Because of the words 'One who is concentrated knows and sees correctly' (A.v.3) its proximate cause is concentration. 7. kaanassaa lakkha.narasapaccupa.t.thaanapada.t.thaanaaniiti ettha pana dhammasabhaavapa.tivedhalakkha.naa pa~n~naa, dhammaana.m sabhaavapa.ticchaadakamohandhakaaraviddha.msanarasaa, asammohapaccupa.t.thaanaa. ``samaahito yathaabhuuta.m jaanaati passatii''ti (a0 ni0 3.10.2) vacanato pana samaadhi tassaa pada.t.thaana.m. [pa~n~naapabhedakathaa] 24356 From: m. nease Date: Tue Aug 19, 2003 6:18am Subject: Re: [dsg] Asubha at Kaeng Kajan Hi Sarah, I've been looking forward to replies to this and thinking about it a lot. I had a bout of insomnia early this morning and came to a somewhat different conclusion (I think?)--I'll compare it with yours below. ----- Original Message ----- From: Sarah To: Sent: Tuesday, August 19, 2003 4:09 AM Subject: Re: [dsg] Asubha at Kaeng Kajan > --- "m. nease" wrote: > On one of the Kaeng Kajan > tapes, in a discussion of 'asubha', Khun Sujin > > says that when ruupa is known as ruupa it is asubha because it is too > > short > > to be the object of pleasure. I do understand the point (I think), but > > doesn't sukkha-vedanaa arise and subside just as quickly as ruupa > > (actually, > > even more quickly)? So, while it lasts, isn't ruupa the object of > > sukkha-vedanaa? > .... > ...as I understand, just because rupa is the object of > sukkha-vedanaa, doesn't mean it has to be taken for pleasurable or 'subha' > (with or without wrong view) by following akusala javana cittas in the > sense door and mind door processes. Do you mean that the (immediately) following javanas won't necessarily be attended by sukha-vedanaa? The (tentative) conclusion I came to this morning was this: I think Khun Sujin was not using 'object of pleasure' in the sense of aaramma.na, but in the sense of the concept that's formed by sa~n~naa after many, many processess (still an infinitessimally brief time) through however many doors. That is, the concept of visible form that I take as an 'object of pleasure'--a pretty girl, say--is not ruupaaramma.na.m--many countless of which have already arisen and fallen away before the 'girl' appears. So insight is not into 'the girl' but into the actual ruupaaramma.na.m. which is asubha because it is simply not pleasant (rather than 'unpleasant', 'ugly' or 'foul' in this context, I think)--it not only is too brief, it also doesn't make up enough of the visual field even to make up a significant part of the 'pretty girl' that thinking later takes as the 'object of pleasure'. It's just one (or one process of) citta and whatever vedanaa arose with it isn't necessarily relevant to the feeling that arises later with regard to the 'girl'. Is this more or less what you were saying above? > The anagami or arahant still > experiences rupa with sukkha-vedanaa, but no more sanna and citta > vipallasa (perversions) marking it as being pleasurable or beautiful, > because panna has been developed to such a degree to fully comprehend its > true nature as being anicca, dukkha, anatta AND asubha. Of course the > ditthi vipallasa with regard to taking asubha for subha was eradicated by > the sotapanna. Right--vipallaasa may arise with the ruupaaramma.na.m and with the concept, later (for us puthujjanas)--but these are different vipallaasas, I think. > Does that answer it? The jury's still out... > However, when we are discussing the vipallasas, the meaning is not > confined to parts of the body at all. If we look at the computer and think > it's a nice colour or preferable to the colour of the wall, there is > clinging (with or without wrong view) to beauty in the foul. Hence, sanna > and citta vipallasa with regard to taking what is asubha (foul) for subha > (beautiful) is only eradicated by the anagami along with the attachment to > sense pleasures ." Right--again, though, the clinging to the plain visible object (color) is different from the later clinging to the concept. By the way, since one definition of 'subha' is 'beauty', I wonder if 'not beautiful' would be a better translation of 'asubha' in this context? > > To everyone involved in getting these tapes to me, thanks again--I'm > > thoroughly enjoying listening to them over and over in the mornings > > while I paint. > ..... > Very glad you're enjoying them and painting while you listen to Dhamma > sounds like very right livelihood to me;-) Maybe so--useful, at least, to be reminded of 'asubha' while painting a beautiful naked girl...! > I think they're quite a good > set because Jon was semi-editing as he recorded (the quality may not be > the best though as it was just his little hand tape-recorder). The varying sound quality throughout and the changing backgrounds gives them a nice kind of 'cinema verite' quality. They could be much clearer but I like them this way. > Mike, some of the discussions Nina was referring to are in these posts: > > Vipallasa (Perversions, Distortions) > > 10928, 11471, 11514, 14861 Thanks Sarah, hope this didn't tax your creaky elbows too much. mike 24357 From: icaro franca Date: Tue Aug 19, 2003 6:54am Subject: Re: [dsg] Asubha at Kaeng Kajan Dear Mike: Perhaps Sarah could do it better at replying your post, but - respectfully butting in as usual! - I could add that Sukha-Vedanaa - or better, Kaylka-Sukha-Vedanaa - has two remarkable aspects: one, to be arisen mainly by visual contact (Cakkhu Samphassaja Vedanaa) and two,to be associated with all consciousness, mainly with nama. So, regarding a ´Pretty Gírl´ (Subha or Asubha, Mrs. Kujin indirectly said that it could be irrelevant) has two imbricaded modes of expression: a more general Rupa mode and a more especified Nama mode: the two modes conjoined form the ´concept´of ´Pretty Girl´ at mind. The Asubha predicative forms only one more constitutive note (a logical note ?). Well, this remarks don´t impede you, Mike, to regard your ´Pretty Grrrrrl´...heheheh! Mettaya, Ícaro ===== Seize the time, there´s only minutes left to zero Just got a little taste, I gotta get some more, Just me and you 24358 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Tue Aug 19, 2003 6:55am Subject: [dsg] Re: Is solitude not dukkha? As well as absence of love and friendsh... Hi Howard, This is how I see it: Living with husband, or wife, or girlfriend, or boyfriend, or in a house crowded with children and possession is attachment. Unless one sees the disadvantage in living with husband, or wife, or girlfriend, or boyfriend, or in a house crowded with children and possession, unless one sees the advantage of giving up that attachment, one would not give up living with husband, or wife, or girlfriend, or boyfriend, or in a house crowded with children and possession. If one's goal is to realize the cessation of dukkha, then living with husband, or wife, or girlfriend, or boyfriend, or in a house crowded with children and possession is to be given up to realize that goal. Why? Because living with husband, or wife, or girlfriend, or boyfriend, or in a house crowded with children and possession in and of itself is attachment, dukkha, not conducive to the cessation of dukkha. It is impossible to realize the cessation of dukkha living with husband, or wife, or girlfriend, or boyfriend, or in a house crowded with children and possession. Now, I am not saying that everyone who follows the Buddha's teaching HAS to give up living with husband, or wife, or girlfriend, or boyfriend, or in a house crowded with children and possession. It is a personal decision. Just like giving up smoking is a personal decision. To give up smoking, one has to want to give up smoking. Comments are appreciated. Peace, Victor 24359 From: m. nease Date: Tue Aug 19, 2003 6:51am Subject: Re: [dsg] duty of soldiers Hi Icaro, ----- Original Message ----- From: icaro franca To: Sent: Monday, August 18, 2003 1:20 PM Subject: Re: [dsg] duty of soldiers > Dear Mike: > > Mike: " Understood. > > > > Thanks again!" > -------------------------------------------------- > > Don´t be sad, Number One! Not at all, sir--I'm thoroughly enjoying all these threads! > We all are on a conditioned world, and mistakes > are inevitable! But of course! mike 24360 From: icaro franca Date: Tue Aug 19, 2003 7:29am Subject: Re: [dsg] duty of soldiers Hi Mike: Mike:" Not at all, sir--I'm thoroughly enjoying all these > threads!" ---------------------------------------------------- Glad to hear about you feeling better! I got insomnia sometimes! ------------------------------------------------- Mike: " But of course!" ------------------------------------------------- Épatant !!!! Mettaya, Ícaro ===== Seize the time, there´s only minutes left to zero Just got a little taste, I gotta get some more, Just me and you 24361 From: Date: Tue Aug 19, 2003 3:33am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Is solitude not dukkha? As well as absence of love and friendsh... Hi, Victor - Similar to my recent conversations with Kom on another matter, I do see your point, I find it well made, but I disagree in extent/degree. Just a comment or two to follow below. In a message dated 8/19/03 9:57:42 AM Eastern Daylight Time, yu_zhonghao@y... writes: > Because living with husband, or wife, or girlfriend, or boyfriend, > or in a house crowded with children and possession in and of itself > is attachment, dukkha, not conducive to the cessation of dukkha. > ----------------------------------------------- Howard: Well, as you often point out, *all* conditioned dhammas are dukkha. ----------------------------------------------- It > > is impossible to realize the cessation of dukkha living with > husband, or wife, or girlfriend, or boyfriend, or in a house crowded > with children and possession. > ---------------------------------------------- Howard: With respect, I consider this to be an overstatement. ======================= With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 24362 From: abhidhammika Date: Tue Aug 19, 2003 7:46am Subject: [dsg] Re: Kasina Meditation Question: To Jim Anderson Dear Jim, and all How are you? You wondered: "I was wondering if is absolutely necessary to start with an actual physical colour kasi.na in order to acquire the learning sign (uggahanimitta)." We read the following at Section 57, Chapter 4 in Visuddhimaggo: "Athaanena sace taru.no samaadhi kenacideva asappaayakaara.nena nassati, upaahanaa aaruyha kattarada.n.dam gahetvaa tam .thaanam gantvaa nimittam aadaaya aagantvaa sukhanisinnena bhaavetabbam." "Afterwards, in case the immature concentration slipped due to a certain untoward cause, the ascetic, putting on the sandals, taking the staff, going to that place of kasi.na source object, repossessing the Learnt Image, and returning to the secluded place, should develop concentration by sitting comfortably." As you see, the kasi.na source object is very handy when the ascetic lost the Learnt Image. Visuddhimaggo instructed the ascetic to start with the source kasi.na object to obtain the Learnt Image, and to go back to the former when he dropped the latter by accident. Therefore, I conclude that the source kasi.na object has an indispensable role to play in acquiring the Learnt Image. Jim also asked: "Would it be possible to just start by imagining or visualizing a coloured disc and gradually increase the vividness of it to the same high degree?" When we imagine or visulize a coloured disc, it implies that we have previously seen an actual coloured disc at a distant past. When we attempt to acquire such a difficult thing as the Learnt Image, we need to have the best resources available at our disposal - resources internal and external. As such, the coloured disc from a distant past memory would become a poorer choice while the actual present coloured disc would serve as a fresh source kasi.na object. Therefore, unless the ascetic wanted to do things the hard way, he would rather kick a brick and look at the real coloured disc for a kasi.na source object. I hope that my answers meet your expectations. With regards, Suan http://www.bodhiology.org --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Jim Anderson" wrote: Dear Suan and all, I was wondering if is absolutely necessary to start with an actual physical colour kasi.na in order to acquire the learning sign (uggahanimitta). Would it be possible to just start by imagining or visualizing a coloured disc and gradually increase the vividness of it to the same high degree? Best wishes, Jim 24363 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Tue Aug 19, 2003 7:58am Subject: [dsg] Re: Is solitude not dukkha? As well as absence of love and friendsh... Hi Howard, This is how I see it: It is impossible to realize the cessation of dukkha living with husband, or wife, or girlfriend, or boyfriend, or in a house crowded with children and possession. With the smoking analogy, it is impossible to eradicate the addiction to nicotine if one does not refrain from smoking. However, it is not impossible to follow the Buddha's teaching living with husband, or wife, or girlfriend, or boyfriend, or in a house crowded with children and possession. It is not impossible for layfollowers to observe the five precepts and refrain from unwholesome actions in body, speech, and mind. Comments are appreciated. Peace, Victor 24364 From: Date: Tue Aug 19, 2003 4:07am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Is solitude not dukkha? As well as absence of love and friendsh... Hi, Victor - In a message dated 8/19/03 11:00:23 AM Eastern Daylight Time, yu_zhonghao@y... writes: > Hi Howard, > > This is how I see it: > It is impossible to realize the cessation of dukkha living with > husband, or wife, or girlfriend, or boyfriend, or in a house crowded > with children and possession. With the smoking analogy, it is > impossible to eradicate the addiction to nicotine if one does not > refrain from smoking. > > However, it is not impossible to follow the Buddha's teaching living > with husband, or wife, or girlfriend, or boyfriend, or in a house > crowded with children and possession. It is not impossible for > layfollowers to observe the five precepts and refrain from > unwholesome actions in body, speech, and mind. > > Comments are appreciated. > > Peace, > Victor > =========================== So, the difference lies, I think, in our views of how much is possible to accomplish in a householder's life. There's probably little point in arguing that difference further than we already have, I suspect. I think we do both agree that greater and faster progress is to be expected in the renunciate's life than the householder's life, and perhaps we can leave this topic at that point of agreement. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 24365 From: Jim Anderson Date: Tue Aug 19, 2003 8:52am Subject: Re: [dsg] Pali puzzles Dear Nina, > Dear Jim, > Vis Subco, 4: the child without discrimination: asa~njaatabyavahaarabuddhi: > haara is string, but: byava? 'byava' represents the prefixes 'vi' and 'ava' before 'haara', hence 'byavahaara' (or vyavahaara) and is equivalent to the more usual Pali 'vohaara' (business, trade, etc.). I don't know how best to translate the whole compound but on first impressions it seems to mean: 'a child whose intuitive sense (or understanding) of business matters is not yet born'. This reflects the child not yet knowing the value of money in the market place. 'byavahaara' has other meanings that could also apply, I think (see 'vohaara' in PED). > tambaka.msaadimayo: tambaka: copper coloured. I think 'tambaka.msaadi-' is just referring to the metals of copper (tamba), bronze (ka.msa), and so on. '-mayo' = consisting of. Jim 24366 From: norakat147 Date: Tue Aug 19, 2003 9:35am Subject: [dsg] Re: Ethical justification for passivity in social action & politics Hi TG, I think I owe you, as well as other "patriotic" citizens here elaboration as my statement/accusation was lacking much description. I was simply "pulling something out of the hat" to use as example. Since this is not a discussion group on politics I will not go into it any deeper. Lets me just say that my complaint is not against corportions in- themselves, but against specific ones/industries (ultimately they consist of only people); and regarding our country (USA): Lets just say that things are not what they seem to be (as painted by mass media); granted while things can be alot worse (here), things can (believe me) also be phenomenally better (for us and the world). If one knew the facts they would be horrified. regards, nori --------------------------- > > Hi nori > > Assuming you are talking about the USA, its nice that you are free to > practice dhamma in a country that is so corrupt, greedy, and manipulative. A lot of > those other "nice" countries would be forcing you what to think or throwing > you in jail or killing you for such views. Or you'd simply be poor and spending > all your time worried about survival, no time to practice dhamma. How nice > that you are able to express your ideas by means of corporations that are ... snip TG 24367 From: icaro franca Date: Tue Aug 19, 2003 9:41am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Is solitude not dukkha? As well as absence of love and friendsh... Dear Howard and Victor: Howard: "So, the difference lies, I think, in our > views of how much is possible > to accomplish in a householder's life. There's > probably little point in > arguing that difference further than we already > have, I suspect." ---------------------------------------------------- At Buddha´s times, this controversy about the householder´s role and liberation of Dukkha involved also Mahavir teachings and his jainas. Jainism states that a man or a woman can follow all the teachings and practices till a certain point or degree, at which one ought to choice between the householder´s life and Monk´s: it you chose to be a householder, your progress on the path stops at once. If you choice to be a monk, you can continue on the path towards Kaivalya (Nibbana). The Buddhism has an entirelly different approach, perhaps due contacts with Mahavir´s jainas - both are preaching at Magadha at the same time. Even with the standpoint that only bhikkhus and bhikkhunis are good real buddhists, the householder´s role is much more flexible than at other schools - Anathapindhika is the best example. I must agree with Victor when he says that, if the liberation of Dukkha is quite impossible to a householder - or for anyone that´s not a member of Sangha! - following the precepts, practicing the vipassana and jhanas, etc, is not only possible but very rewarding for all people: not only for mental culture, but as a seal of the good intentions to walk at the Nibbana´s path! That´s my humble humble opinion. Corrections are really welcome! Metta, Ícaro I think we do both > agree that greater and faster progress is to be > expected in the renunciate's > life than the householder's life, and perhaps we can > leave this topic at that > point of agreement. > > With metta, > Howard ===== Seize the time, there´s only minutes left to zero Just got a little taste, I gotta get some more, Just me and you 24368 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Aug 19, 2003 10:23am Subject: FW: Co. Mahaaraahulovaadasutta, A Series no 13. ---------- Van: nina van gorkom Datum: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 09:09:01 +0200 Aan: Pali yahoo Onderwerp: Co. Mahaaraahulovaadasutta, A Series no 13. Co. Mahaaraahulovaadasutta, A Series no 13. 120. metta.m raahulaati kasmaa aarabhi? taadibhaavassa kaara.nadassanattha.m. As to the phrase, mettaa raahulaa, (develop loving kindness, Rahula) why did he begin (with these words)? In order to explain the condition for ³such nature² (of the arahat). he.t.thaa hi taadibhaavalakkha.na.m dassita.m, Before, the characteristic of ³such nature² was explained, na ca sakkaa aha.m taadii homiiti akaara.naa bhavitu.m, and it is not possible to develop ³I am of such nature² when there is no condition for it; napi ``aha.m uccaakulappasuto bahussuto laabhii, nor when one thinks, ³I am belonging to a noble family, I have heard much and I am wealthy, ma.m raajaraajamahaamattaadayo bhajanti, aha.m taadii homii''ti the king , his ministers and so on associate with me², imehi kaara.nehi koci taadii naama hoti, someone cannot call himself ³of such nature² because of these reasons . mettaadibhaavanaaya pana hotiiti However, one can be ³of such nature² by the development of loving-kindness and so on. taadibhaavassa kaara.nadassanattha.m ima.m desana.m aarabhi. Therefore, the Buddha began this teaching (of mettå) in order to explain the reason for being of ³such nature². English: As to the phrase, mettaa raahulaa, (develop loving kindness, Rahula) why did he begin (with these words)? In order to explain the condition for ³I am of such nature² (of the arahat). Before, the characteristic of ³such nature² was explained, and is not possible to develop ³I am of such nature² when there is no condition for it; nor when one thinks, ³I am belonging to a noble family, I have heard much and I am wealthy, the king, his ministers and so on associate with me², someone cannot call himself ³of such nature² because of these reasons. However, one can be ³of such nature² by the development of loving-kindness and so on. Therefore, the Buddha began this teaching (of mettå) in order to explain the reason for being of ³such nature². **** Nina. 24369 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Aug 19, 2003 10:23am Subject: Re: [dsg] duty of soldiers Dear Howard, I followed with interest your exchange with Kom. I learn from it, because what you say is also what Lodewijk often says: just nama and rupa, just visible object, that causes irritation. But it did not irritate you, I know. He added that I use this too easily and that one should explain it in a whole context. At breakfast we were listening to the parts of the body. The Buddha explained gradually so that people would cling less to the whole body. When you cut a nail and the nail lies about you do not think, this is mine. When the nail is on, and when there is something wrong with it: my nail, my pain. We go one step further: the body consists of rupas. Explaining about conditions for nama and rupa helps us to see that they are empty phenomena rolling on. Lodewijk remarked that it is difficult to understand when one still has doubts. Only the sotapanna has eradicated doubt. But we have strange examples in our life that remind us of conditions: how things work out unexpectantly, wihtout us doing anything about it. Also: it depends on the moment that someone else hears or reads about nama and rupa. Email is difficult, we do not know someone else's disposition. How do we know whether he is ready for it? As Sarah quoted from the Dispeller, Co to the Book of Analysis: impermanence is more obvious, but anatta is not obvious, hard to see. The Dhamma is subtle, difficult to understand. Thank you and also Kom for your instructive posts. I hope others (Mike, Sarah) can help me how to explain better about: "just nama and rupa, just visible object!". I mean, how do explain it to Lodewijk. Nina. op 18-08-2003 20:58 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: > I do not think that paramattha dhammas > constitute the whole of what is actual. 24370 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Aug 19, 2003 10:23am Subject: Re: [dsg]wrong livelihood Dear Ken, Thank you for sharing your life story. It is not easy to change professions, but I am happy you are well settled now. Nina. op 18-08-2003 00:00 schreef kenhowardau op kenhowardau@y...: > > Actually, the profession I was trained in was law. As a > young man, I threw in a secure job and persuaded my wife > we should move to the country -- to live the good life. > After thirteen years, in 1993, we were happy to move back > to the coast. 24371 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Tue Aug 19, 2003 10:37am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Is solitude not dukkha? As well as absence of love and friendsh... Hello, > -----Original Message----- > From: upasaka@a... [mailto:upasaka@a...] > ----------------------------------------------- > It > > > is impossible to realize the cessation of dukkha living with > > husband, or wife, or girlfriend, or boyfriend, or in a house crowded > > with children and possession. > > If you count the number of people with attainment after they have heard the Buddha's teachings, and by default they *must* realize the the cessation of dukkha (to a certain extent), there are actually more householders, devas, and such more than those who are not (like bikkhus, or householder with no family). The list of the lay disciples of the Buddha goes on and on, Anathapintika, Visakha, Sakka - chief of deva, the Buddha's father, the Buddha's mother, etc... I think a life of a bikkhus helps in achieving purity in multiple different ways, but not being a bikkhus (or those who live isolated) doesn't prevent one from the realization of the noble truths. kom 24372 From: suzakico Date: Tue Aug 19, 2003 11:19am Subject: Re: [dsg] observing - Nina 2-a As I do not read all posts here, it took some time to see if there was any response to the original post: Thank you Nina 2-a. In any case, I added few brief comments toward the end in relation to the Nina's response. Thanks Howard and Icaro for comments. - Kio > > Howard:" When conditions such > > >as sati, ekagatta, passaddhi, and viriya are > > >sufficient to allow pa~n~na to > > >arise, then there will be an exact knowing of what > > >is what without any forced > > >attempts at conceptual characterization." > > > > ---------------------------------------------------- > > > > Could you abrogate the labour of mind ( only one > > of the six senses) on understanding reality ? Is > > insight only non-conceptual characterization ? Without > > the help of mind there could´t be even the notion of > > insight ! > ================================== > You are correct that my perspective is phenomenological. But that does > not mean that I do not make a subject-object distinction or a nama- rupa > distinction. I simply think that an extreme of reification at either pole misses > the middle way. The content of the Bahiya Sutta is relevant to what I'm saying > here. > I do certainly agree that intellectual/conceptual understanding of the > Dhamma is very important in a supportive role, and can be usefully engaged in > during "contemplations". This level of investigation and the resulting > conceptual understanding obtained provide a foundation that is very important to the > practice, perhaps essential. I engage in discursive, conceptual contemplation > and study of the Dhamma much of the time, in fact. But during vipassana > bhavana, whether in formal "meditation mode" or engaged in moment- to-moment > mindfulness and investigation of dhammas, I think that thinking gets in the way and > hinders the arising of enlightenment factors. > * Related to the points above, here are the previous notes from Nina to which I added my comments in between: Nina: As I see it, it is more complicated then that. When there is any idea of observer there may be a very subtle, hidden self feeling, an idea of I observe. Kio: The idea of observer implies the existence of the self. Nina: It is so human and so common; of course, because we have not eradicated the wrong view of self. Kio: Why do you have this discursive thought? More of these thoughts means more of binding. As Howard pointed above, thinking (like this) gets in the way and hinders the arising of enlightenment factors. Nina: Therefore, it is our task to detect it when it appears. Very difficult, but it needs panna to be able to detect this. Kio: Why do you convince yourself that this is 'very difficult'? Again, you carry more burden everytime you convince yourself that this is very difficult. I do not see any use of doing that at all. Nina: As to a sense of detachment: the first aim is understanding, even attachment. Kio: Hope you are not studying to understand this. Again, this is the point of practice. As found in the case of Bahiya, there is no magic to it (for those who 'understand.'). It is just that discursive thoughts may get into the way. Adding more thoughts to this discursive thought is not what was explained by the Buddha to Bahir. * Nina, I am hopeful that you do not mind me commenting like this. As much as we are here for investigation and practice of dhamma for our path, as you mentioned, we should all chip in ideas, and that is what I am trying here. If things get clarified, I believe that would be everyone's benefit. Good day, Kio 24373 From: Date: Tue Aug 19, 2003 7:38am Subject: Re: [dsg] duty of soldiers Hi, Nina - Thank you for writing, Nina. In a message dated 8/19/03 1:27:37 PM Eastern Daylight Time, nilo@e... writes: > Dear Howard, > I followed with interest your exchange with Kom. > -------------------------------------------- Howard: I'm glad, as I know Kom is. ------------------------------------------- > I learn from it, because what you say is also what Lodewijk often says: > just > nama and rupa, just visible object, that causes irritation. But it did not > irritate you, I know. > --------------------------------------------- Howard: That's correct. It does not irritate me. I agree that there is just nama and rupa, though I would more likely describe it as "just patterned streams of complexly interrelated namarupic events," but, of course, I do tend to get too wordy! ;-)) --------------------------------------------- He added that I use this too easily and that one> > should explain it in a whole context. > --------------------------------------------- Howard: I think you do a wonderful job of explaining, particularly in your books. I do agree with Lodewijk, to whom I send a greeting BTW :-), that there is a danger in misunderstanding the consequences of the ultimate view - in particular I think there is the danger of the error of antinomianism - and so, great care does need to be taken in explanation. BTW, I'm in the process of reading your book Buddhism in Daily Life, and really enjoying it. I have particularly enjoyed Chapter 10 (Life) which brings a very positive and encouraging message to my ears. ================================ With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 24374 From: Eddie Lou Date: Tue Aug 19, 2003 11:59am Subject: Re: Nibbana_–_Total_Unbinding I am surprised no one takes up on this very interesting insight to our real "Final" Buddhist destination-NIBBANA. Reproduced in all here for all's benefits. All I know is the "cause & effect" that permeates all 31 levels of existences, ceases altogether in NIBBANA, in other words it shows Buddha's teaching encompasses everything and is in tune with realities so far for me. So Great it is! Theravad or Mahayana does not matter, they all come from the same great source - Buddhism. Now - why such game as - Dhamma ? I still have not got the answer. I also agree with Kio that we can get too involved with certain issues as quoted from hers: >Lastly, if not handled skillfully and used >appropriately as a guide, >the knowledge of various cittas, rupas, etc. may become >a burden. Humbly, Metta, Eddie Lou To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com From: "suzakico" | This is spam | Add to Address Book Date: Fri, 08 Aug 2003 02:29:18 -0000 Subject: [dsg] Nibbana_–_Total_Unbinding This post may point not just what sutta I like but how I interpret the words with my background. I wrote this in response to one practitioner's request about my dhamma experience and found as a part of my file: http://www.geocities.com/suzakico/nibbana.html Nibbana – Total Unbinding Patrick, Let me give you another try (By the way I sent another post prior to this, but it was rejected by the gatekeeper. So, this time, I use the sutta from Udana, called Nibbana Sutta: Total Unbinding. Hopefully, he does not reject this one.) In this attempt, I jump straight into the characterization of nibbana and see if we get what it points. To me, this is the game why we are here. It could be that my experience has `something' to do with that unbinding state. (Well…. Just be careful not to believe what I say but use your judgment!) Anyway, here we go. My comments are in the parenthesis ((…)) and toward the end: "… the Blessed One…exclaimed: There is that dimension where there is neither earth, nor water, nor fire, nor wind; neither dimension of the infinitude of space, nor dimension of the infinitude of consciousness, nor dimension of nothingness, nor dimension of neither perception nor non-perception; neither this world, nor the next world, nor sun, nor moon. And there, I say, there is neither coming, nor going, nor staying; neither passing away nor arising: unestablished, unevolving, without support (mental object).This, just this, is the end of stress. " (Udana VIII.1) ((This dimension as referred to above indicates the state of total unbinding. The characterization is neither this nor that, etc. etc. Also, not coming, going, staying, passing away, etc. Some may call it extinction, but I would like to call this as, it-is-as-it-is state without judgment. What this points is that you need to have this state of release, which is unbinding, i.e., nibbana. So, don' t even think about cittas, rupas, etc. when we are to attain this dimension/state. In fact, it is not attaining, as attaining refers some effort. It has to be effortless effort. That is that dimension!)) "Then, on realizing the significance of that, the Blessed One on that occasion exclaimed: It's hard to see the unaffected, for the truth isn't easily seen. Craving is pierced in one who knows; For one who sees, there is nothing. " (Udana VIII.2) ((First; "It's hard to see the unaffected, for the truth isn't easily seen." In other words, everything is changing. In such a situation, the truth is not easy to see – if we were to see it. It is like chasing to see something while the object and subject is moving. Next; "Craving is pierced in one who knows;" The act of knowing include the craving as in karma/sankhara. It is like, whatever in the past we have experienced has a way of putting the color to the scene we look at – so to speak. So, pierce through this with wisdom that arises at that dimension/state mentioned before. Then; " For one who sees, there is nothing." But the one who sees, pierced through defilements, there is nothing. It is as it is. Nothing hinders. How do we see it? It is the practice of mindfulness or vipassana – seeing the reality as it is.)) "There is, monks, an unborn -- unbecome -- uunmade -- unfabricated. If there were not that unborn -- unbecome -- unmade -- unfabricatted, there would not be the case that emancipation from the born -- become -- made -- fabricated would be discerned. But precisely because there is an unborn -- unbecome -- unmade -- unfabricated, emancipation from the born -- become -- made -- fabricated is discerned." (Udana VIII.3) ((Unborn, unbecome, unmade….are the basis to see the born, become, made as it were, ….without that state realized, you cannot truly see what is going on with the eye of dhamma. So, again, here is catch-22, a paradoxical position that requires for each of us to work on.)) "One who is dependent has wavering. One who is independent has no wavering. There being no wavering, there is calm. There being calm, there is no desire. There being no desire, there is no coming or going. There being no coming or going, there is no passing away or arising. There being no passing away or arising, there is neither a here nor a there nor a between-the-two. This, just this, is the end of stress." (Udana VIII.4) ((This phrase refers to that "nothing" in VIII.2. Everything is depending on everything else. Impermanence is to be seen as it is. The one who sees is the one who is independent as the Buddha calls it here. Mindfulness may be seen as a state of independence. Then, what is described above indicates the detachment, which needs strong determination, you call it Viriya here, to realize what is. At least that was the case for me. This may be compared to a mind similar to a mirror reflecting things on it without the mirror changing itself, or surface waves not affecting water in the deep ocean, or line drawn on water. Any of these analogies (and there are hundreds more) indicates the unaffected/independent state. In such a state, there is no desire, no coming or going, which means letting go totally to the point of finally sensing the vibration of the universe as pointed in my poem. How? Let go, let go, let go – totally, totally, totally. The practice of vipassana helped me to have this discipline – with the practice of Viriya. In practicing vipassana meditation, you sit a long time. Then, some kind of desire pops up. You cannot sit a long time unless you find a way to deal with it. This may be not so easy. But can be done with Viriya. There is more to it. But in essence, if you can totally let go of your emotion and pretty much everything else of being a human (so this is similar to dying, thus extinction!), you may have arrived there! Then, there is no coming, going, passing away, arising.. no here or there kind of consciousness, etc. any more…, and then there is nobody to suffer– annata. "This, just this, is the end of stress." Bingo!)) Just a few more cautionary remarks: The most important: If you seek for it, you will not find it. This is the golden rule. So, we need to seek without seeking. Have you try that? If you have not, 1) you need to become familiar with paradox if you were to learn this stuff, and 2) practice it! Actually it may be said as `unlearning' as if to don off unneeded and rediscover what you originally had – the unborn, unbecome, etc. (which is never lost from the beginningless beginning). Tied to this, the other point is that if you think you have it, you may not have it, or you have already lost it. This is because such thought can create another binding condition. So, you need to keep letting go. This is a slippery stuff especially at the beginning (which could be many, many years for some). Another point: do not believe what anyone says at the face value, especially from the one who thinks he is knowledgeable. (Remember the story of Ananda?) One has to be able to walk the talk. So, be critical. Again, do not believe what I say. By the way, one thing I wonder is that if there has been any discussion like this in this group. It appears that there are authorities of Theravada here, but sometimes, as you took an initiative, you need to stick your neck out and ask (- hopefully having done the homework). But, this is my humble opinion. Lastly, if not handled skillfully and used appropriately as a guide, the knowledge of various cittas, rupas, etc. may become a burden. This is my intuitive sense and the point I made about Ananda. Perhaps any `knowledgeable' person can comment on this for our benefit. * FYI, the above Nibbana Sutta is taken from: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/khuddaka/udana/ud8-01.html Good day, good life, and good luck on your journey! Kio 24375 From: icaro franca Date: Tue Aug 19, 2003 0:18pm Subject: Re: [dsg] duty of soldiers Dear Howard: Howard: " I > agree that there is just > nama and rupa, though I would more likely describe > it as "just patterned streams > of complexly interrelated namarupic events," but, of > course, I do tend to get > too wordy! ;-))" ------------------------------------------------ Dear Uplifted Upasaka! That streams of namarupic events include the Kammic ones: can be raised at a start point and extincted by a definite way or path. You can add constitutive or logical notes at will in such processes, but they are what they are: a manifold, a set of Nama and Rupa. Make yourself at will with your "wordy" speech, uprighted Upasaka! ----------------------------------------------------- Howard:" I think you do a wonderful job of explaining, > particularly in your > books. I do agree with Lodewijk, to whom I send a > greeting BTW :-), that there is > a danger in misunderstanding the consequences of the > ultimate view - in > particular I think there is the danger of the error > of antinomianism - and so, > great care does need to be taken in explanation." ----------------------------------------------------- The Ultimate View - one can call it the Paramattha Dhammas - share with the Conventional truths (sammuit-sacca) its mundane aspects, mainly rupa. It has the advantage to raise understanding about abstract issues like insight, but at the other side reveals that the Ultimate of ultimates - Nibbana - are really an ahetu Dhamma (Dhammasangani). So, you can find a opposite framework even at the Paramathas: Lokiya versus Nibbana. Mundane aspects versus non-mundane one. That makes explanations about truth very hard at the ultimate side, even at the symbolical range. "Cavendo Tutus" - in latin, "with care one doesn´t get problems". ----------------------------------------------------- Howard: " I have > particularly enjoyed Chapter 10 (Life) which brings > a very positive and encouraging > message to my ears." ------------------------------------------------------ Upholdered Upasaka, that´s no intention of mine to make a halcyon and holly-poppied testimony, but at Nina´s post and other´s at this group (Jon, Sarah,Chris, you uphilled upasaka, etc) the buddhist enthusiast (like me !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!)will find the best of Theravada Exegesis!!!! Mettaya, Ícaro ===== Seize the time, there´s only minutes left to zero Just got a little taste, I gotta get some more, Just me and you 24376 From: icaro franca Date: Tue Aug 19, 2003 0:33pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Nibbana_–_Total_Unbinding Dear Eddie: Eddie: " Now - why such game as - Dhamma ? I still have not > got the answer. > I also agree with Kio that we can get too involved > with certain issues as quoted from hers: > >Lastly, if not handled skillfully and used > >appropriately as a guide, > >the knowledge of various cittas, rupas, etc. may > become >a burden." ------------------------------------------------- Dear Eddie, I can postulate a personal opinion at these question about Dhamma. First, you must get a clear definition about "Dhamma" (law, concept, rule or even religion!) Then, take a good plunge at some buddhistic books: my favourite ones are the Lotus Sutra and the Dhammasangani. These two famous works explain the main concept of Dhamma at a complete way! Don´t be afraid to stuff your precious head with all the buddhistic "technical" terms: Cittas, Rupas, cetasikas and so on: they all fall in their fitted sockets without fail or mistake... the Abhidhamma really works!!! Then - at last! - take a seat at this group! Nina´s exegesis on Dharma and Pali, added by the excelent commentaries of all members will really make growth your understanding on these matters. A burden ? Not at all !!!! Metta, Ícaro > Humbly, Metta, > Eddie Lou > > > To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com > From: "suzakico" | This is spam > | > Add to Address Book > Date: Fri, 08 Aug 2003 02:29:18 -0000 > Subject: [dsg] Nibbana_–_Total_Unbinding > > This post may point not just what sutta I like but > how > I interpret > the words with my background. I wrote this in > response to one > practitioner's request about my dhamma experience > and > found as a > part of my file: > http://www.geocities.com/suzakico/nibbana.html > > Nibbana – Total Unbinding > Patrick, > > Let me give you another try (By the way I sent > another > post prior to > this, but it was rejected by the gatekeeper. So, > this > time, I use > the sutta from Udana, called Nibbana Sutta: Total > Unbinding. > Hopefully, he does not reject this one.) In this > attempt, I jump > straight into the characterization of nibbana and > see > if we get what > it points. To me, this is the game why we are here. > > It could be > that my experience has `something' to do with that > unbinding > state. (Well…. Just be careful not to believe what > I > say but use > your judgment!) Anyway, here we go. My comments > are > in the > parenthesis ((…)) and toward the end: > "… the Blessed One…exclaimed: > There is that dimension where there is neither > earth, > nor water, nor > fire, nor wind; neither dimension of the infinitude > of > space, nor > dimension of the infinitude of consciousness, nor > dimension of > nothingness, nor dimension of neither perception nor > non-perception; > neither this world, nor the next world, nor sun, nor > moon. And > there, I say, there is neither coming, nor going, > nor > staying; > neither passing away nor arising: unestablished, > unevolving, without > support (mental object).This, just this, is the end > of > stress. " > (Udana VIII.1) > > ((This dimension as referred to above indicates the > state of total > unbinding. The characterization is neither this nor > that, etc. > etc. Also, not coming, going, staying, passing > away, > etc. Some may > call it extinction, but I would like to call this > as, > it-is-as-it-is > state without judgment. What this points is that > you > need to have > this state of release, which is unbinding, i.e., > nibbana. So, don' > t even think about cittas, rupas, etc. when we are > to > attain this > dimension/state. In fact, it is not attaining, as > attaining refers > some effort. It has to be effortless effort. That > is > that > dimension!)) > "Then, on realizing the significance of that, the > Blessed One on > that occasion exclaimed: It's hard to see the > unaffected, > for the truth isn't easily seen. > Craving is pierced > in one who knows; > For one who sees, > there is nothing. " > (Udana VIII.2) > > ((First; "It's hard to see the unaffected, for the > truth isn't > easily seen." In other words, everything is > changing. > In such a > situation, the truth is not easy to see – if we were > to see it. It > is like chasing to see something while the object > and > subject is > moving. Next; "Craving is pierced in one who > knows;" > The act of > knowing include the craving as in karma/sankhara. > It > is like, > whatever in the past we have experienced has a way > of > putting the > color to the scene we look at – so to speak. So, > pierce through > this with wisdom that arises at that dimension/state > mentioned > before. Then; " For one who sees, there is > nothing." > But the one > who sees, pierced through defilements, there is > nothing. It is as > it is. Nothing hinders. How do we see it? It is > the > practice of > mindfulness or vipassana – seeing the reality as it > is.)) > > > "There is, monks, an unborn -- unbecome -- uunmade > -- > unfabricated. > If there were not that unborn -- unbecome -- unmade > -- > > unfabricatted, there would not be the case that > emancipation from > the born -- become -- made -- fabricated would be > discerned. But > precisely because there is an unborn -- unbecome -- > unmade -- > unfabricated, emancipation from the born -- become > -- > made -- > fabricated is discerned." > > (Udana VIII.3) > > ((Unborn, unbecome, unmade….are the basis to see the > born, become, > made as it were, ….without that state realized, you > cannot truly > see what is going on with the eye of dhamma. So, > again, here is > catch-22, a paradoxical position that requires for > each of us to > work on.)) > > "One who is dependent has wavering. One who is > independent has no > wavering. There being no wavering, there is calm. > There being calm, > there is no desire. There being no desire, there is > no > === message truncated === ===== Seize the time, there´s only minutes left to zero Just got a little taste, I gotta get some more, Just me and you 24377 From: christine_forsyth Date: Tue Aug 19, 2003 0:36pm Subject: Re: [dsg] duty of soldiers Hello Icaro, Some of your posts (like those of others) may be technically a little above my head - but who cares!! I just wanted to say that on a cold dark Brisbane morning at 5.30 a.m. - your posts make me smile. Your friendliness, energy and warm enthusiasm are contagious. Thanks!! (and good morning also to Uplifted and Upholdered Upasaka and All ) metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- 24378 From: Date: Tue Aug 19, 2003 8:45am Subject: Re: [dsg] duty of soldiers Hi, Christine - In a message dated 8/19/03 3:38:06 PM Eastern Daylight Time, cforsyth@v... writes: > Hello Icaro, > > Some of your posts (like those of others) may be technically a little > above my head - but who cares!! > I just wanted to say that on a cold dark Brisbane morning at 5.30 > a.m. - your posts make me smile. Your friendliness, energy and warm > enthusiasm are contagious. Thanks!! (and good morning also to > Uplifted and Upholdered Upasaka and All ) > > metta and peace, > Christine > ======================= I quite agree!! With uplifted metta ;-), Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 24379 From: icaro franca Date: Tue Aug 19, 2003 0:54pm Subject: Re: [dsg] duty of soldiers Dear Chris: Chris: " Hello Icaro, > > Some of your posts (like those of others) may be > technically a little > above my head - but who cares!! > I just wanted to say that on a cold dark Brisbane > morning at 5.30 > a.m. - your posts make me smile. Your friendliness, > energy and warm > enthusiasm are contagious. Thanks!! (and good > morning also to > Uplifted and Upholdered Upasaka and All ) > > metta and peace, > Christine" ----------------------------------------------------- Heheheh... Thanks ! < smile too!> Metta, Ícaro ===== Seize the time, there´s only minutes left to zero Just got a little taste, I gotta get some more, Just me and you 24380 From: christine_forsyth Date: Tue Aug 19, 2003 1:33pm Subject: Re: Killing responsibility Hello Eaglenarius, Please don't worry and feel bad about things you did when you were a tiny child. Every single one of us, in hundreds and thousands of lives, has done cruel things to insects, animals, birds, fishes and people, that we would be ashamed of today if somehow we could remember them. Try not to think too much about them. You don't do those thoughtless and hurtful things now, and you can teach any child or adult you know to have metta and karuna towards all beings. The past is gone and cannot be altered. But you can do lots of kind, generous and gentle things right now, today. One of the people who has had the most effect of me is a person who doesn't argue or try to convince, they just live their life in as non-harming, gentle and ethical a way as possible. Your whole life can become a Silent Witness to the teachings of the Buddha. Though none of us can do anything about the past - the future is in our hands from this point on. The Buddha said about whether one is one bound to reap all that one has sown in just proportion: "If anyone says that a man must reap according to his deeds, in that case there is no religious life, nor is an opportunity afforded for the entire extinction of sorrow. But is anyone says that what a man reaps accords with his deeds, in that case there is a religious life, and opportunity is afforded for the entire extinction of sorrow." Although it is stated in the Dhammapada that "not in the sky, nor in mid-ocean, nor entering a mountain cave is found that place on earth, where abiding one may escape from (the consequences of) an evil deed: yet one is not bound to pay all the past arrears of one's Kamma. If such were the case, emancipation would be an impossibility. Eternal recurrence would be the unfortunate result." from Narada Maha Thera "The Buddhist Doctrine of Kamma and Rebirth" http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Runway/5787/kammaandrebirth1.ht ml Kamma is very complicated, there is not a one on one consequence for bad actions of thought word and deed. Not all bad actions result in a bad thing happening to you or a bad rebirth - sometimes they just add on to accumulations and make it more likely that certain characater traits and tendencies will be strengthened. (Which is a bit of a worry for me, as I am a great chatterer, I love talking to people and people seem to like talking to me - which just about always leads to frivolous speech that easily could move over into plain gossip. And more harm can be done with the tongue than with any other weapons. There are so many cautions about wrong speech, and categories of wrong speech, in the scriptures - just as many as for physically harming other beings.) May you have a friendly, kind, peaceful and gentle day metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "eaglenarius" wrote: > Hi All, > > When I was small (may be 5 years old), my hobby is killing insects. I didnot > feel any guilty in that bad act. After I know Buddha dhamma, I don't do it > anymore, but I feel afraid of the consequences. Do we have to bear the > consequences of bad act that we had done when we were a small child which > did not understand this karmic law ? > > I appreciate very much, your advise. > > Thanks, > Eaglenarius 24381 From: icaro franca Date: Tue Aug 19, 2003 1:58pm Subject: Re: [dsg] duty of soldiers Dear Howard: ;-) Metta, Ícaro ----------------------------------------------------- > > Hello Icaro, > > > > Some of your posts (like those of others) may be > technically a little > > above my head - but who cares!! > > I just wanted to say that on a cold dark Brisbane > morning at 5.30 > > a.m. - your posts make me smile. Your > friendliness, energy and warm > > enthusiasm are contagious. Thanks!! (and good > morning also to > > Uplifted and Upholdered Upasaka and All ) > > > > metta and peace, > > Christine > > > ======================= > I quite agree!! > > With uplifted metta ;-), > Howard ===== Seize the time, there´s only minutes left to zero Just got a little taste, I gotta get some more, Just me and you 24382 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Aug 19, 2003 9:16pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Another meaning of Dhamma?- 'correctness in welcome' Dear Sarah, This is so much about daily life, I like it. In fact I shall order the book, I got a card from PTS. I got the taste. I have the co in Pali but since I work on many texts, it saves time and is easier to have the English next to it. Thank you, Nina. op 19-08-2003 10:04 schreef Sarah op sarahdhhk@y...: > ..... > S: The Buddha then makes 'a comparison of Ananda Thera with a universal > monarch' and in the commentary we read examples about how such a monarch > speaks and welcomes various people appropriately, such as kings, brahmins, > householders and ascetics. Householders are welcomed by "My dears, are you > not oppressed by the use of force or taxation from the court? Does the > [rain] god rightfully supply showers? Is the harvest a good one?" > Brahmins are welcomed with a queery about whether they are "receiving > sacrificial fees or clothes or a brown cow?"! > 24383 From: Manu Wadhwani Date: Tue Aug 19, 2003 9:40pm Subject: Re: Systematic Study of Dhamma Dear Dhamma friends: I joined this group some time back and have been following the discussions with considerable interest and awe. Although many of the things being said go over my head, it strengthens my resolve to carry on the study of Dhamma further. Opportunity to hear (and learn) Dhamma is one of the most precious things and I am sincerely grateful to all the members of this group for being given this opportunity. My name is Manu Wadhwani. I have been living in Laos for a long time. I started meditation and reading about Dhamma about 6 years ago. My study of Dhamma, like all new comers I would guess, is reading all that I can lay my hands on. I am not sure if that is the best approach. Is there any prescribed way of studying Dhamma? It would be very interesting to hear from the members of this group about how they have structured their study because all seem so well organized, quoting and pointing to the references on any given topic immediately. Since many of the members are familiar with Thailand, can anyone suggest where I can buy English translations of the Canon in Bangkok or Chiang Mai? Respectfully, Manu Wadhwani 24384 From: eaglenarius Date: Tue Aug 19, 2003 10:51pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Killing responsibility Hi Christine, Thanks for your opinion. I'll browse your recommended website. -----Original Message----- From: christine_forsyth [mailto:cforsyth@v...] Sent: Wednesday, August 20, 2003 3:33 AM To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Subject: [dsg] Re: Killing responsibility Hello Eaglenarius, Please don't worry and feel bad about things you did when you were a tiny child. Every single one of us, in hundreds and thousands of lives, has done cruel things to insects, animals, birds, fishes and people, that we would be ashamed of today if somehow we could remember them. Try not to think too much about them. You don't do those thoughtless and hurtful things now, and you can teach any child or adult you know to have metta and karuna towards all beings. The past is gone and cannot be altered. But you can do lots of kind, generous and gentle things right now, today. One of the people who has had the most effect of me is a person who doesn't argue or try to convince, they just live their life in as non-harming, gentle and ethical a way as possible. Your whole life can become a Silent Witness to the teachings of the Buddha. Though none of us can do anything about the past - the future is in our hands from this point on. The Buddha said about whether one is one bound to reap all that one has sown in just proportion: "If anyone says that a man must reap according to his deeds, in that case there is no religious life, nor is an opportunity afforded for the entire extinction of sorrow. But is anyone says that what a man reaps accords with his deeds, in that case there is a religious life, and opportunity is afforded for the entire extinction of sorrow." Although it is stated in the Dhammapada that "not in the sky, nor in mid-ocean, nor entering a mountain cave is found that place on earth, where abiding one may escape from (the consequences of) an evil deed: yet one is not bound to pay all the past arrears of one's Kamma. If such were the case, emancipation would be an impossibility. Eternal recurrence would be the unfortunate result." from Narada Maha Thera "The Buddhist Doctrine of Kamma and Rebirth" http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Runway/5787/kammaandrebirth1.ht ml -------------------- EAGLE : Thanks for all. I'll read your recommended website. ------------------- Kamma is very complicated, there is not a one on one consequence for bad actions of thought word and deed. Not all bad actions result in a bad thing happening to you or a bad rebirth - sometimes they just add on to accumulations and make it more likely that certain characater traits and tendencies will be strengthened. (Which is a bit of a worry for me, as I am a great chatterer, I love talking to people and people seem to like talking to me - which just about always leads to frivolous speech that easily could move over into plain gossip. And more harm can be done with the tongue than with any other weapons. There are so many cautions about wrong speech, and categories of wrong speech, in the scriptures - just as many as for physically harming other beings.) ---------------------- EAGLE : don't worrry Christine. My wife speaking type is just like your selfdescription, but I like it very much that I can save the speaking energy. I usually depend on her in explaining something to somebody (especially long explanation), and she makes an active conversation, rather than I do it myself. (mutual symbiosis) ----------------------- Thanks, Eagle 24385 From: eaglenarius Date: Tue Aug 19, 2003 10:51pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Killing responsibility Hi Icaro, -----Original Message----- From: icaro franca [mailto:icarofranca@y...] Sent: Tuesday, August 19, 2003 6:09 PM To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [dsg] Killing responsibility Fala Belo !!!! -------------------- EAGLE : By the way, what does the above phrase mean ? I cannot find it in Engl. Dictionary. -------------------- One of the many mistakes about Kammic law is that it deals only with cause and effect: for example, you go to a camping at the Himalayas and, while sitting inside your tent, with the cold wind blowing outside, you ruthlessly kill a hundred louses at your clothes... and with this unmerciful act you manage to invoke the Kammic law! When you are back to civilization, at a sunny day, when you are peacefully walking on the streets, suddenly you are ran over by a hundred giant louses! Kamma law fulfilled !!! Not at all. --------------------------- EAGLE : It sounds like a cartoon movie, thanks anyway. The real story is I did enjoying killing the insects and other small animals. with fully attention, I pulled their legs and opened their body to see what was inside. At that time I didn't think that it was a bad deed. -------------------------- Human acts can be Kusala or Akusala. If you think that human deals with reality are a matter of Citta and cetasika, nama and rupa, with no self at the guidance of the process, you will perceive that the so called "Kamma Law" is not cause-and-effect at direct way: it´s not a matter of Crime-and-Punishment, but better a question about what are the real components of our acts, our thoughts and how these state of affairs will develop ahead in our lives. ------------------------------ EAGLE : This no self is a very Buddhist doctrine, but I cannot digest it due to the question who is the next self which have to endure the consequences of bad deed. I think I have to close this no self question till my Right Understanding arise. ===== Seize the time, there´s only minutes left to zero Just got a little taste, I gotta get some more, Just me and you 24386 From: rjkjp1 Date: Wed Aug 20, 2003 1:09am Subject: Re: Disappearance of the Sasana --- Howard: Thank you for the additional details. I've re-read the article at the >web site and find myself *quite* the unbeliever. >It is nice that >folks have something to "reverence", but to my mind, they have made >a poor choice of object of veneration in this case. O>bviously, I do recognize the possibility of my evaluation being in error. Howver, I strongly believe otherwise. May it be so that this strong >belief is not the result of being a hopelessly deluded puthujjana who has no >chance >of taking even baby steps on the path until Lord Metteya arrives. ____ Dear Howard. The Theravada have been concerned with preserving the teaching as well as practising it. Correct practice depends on correct theory so the two are related. Still if we are overly concerned with the preservation of the theory – without a proper insight into the application then that concern is likely to be weighed down by upadana (attachment) and not be beneficial to anyone. On the other hand if we accept the theory and endeavour to practice correctly, but then have disdain for the efforts of the sangha over centuries who preserved it then that seems ungrateful. The desana is actually both a warning and a prediction. As a warning it conditions samvega for us to work towards keeping the Dhammavinaya without altering it. As a prediction it lets us be balanced and know that these matters will occur, and also let us make efforts now to insight the teachings, as they will soon be past. ____________________________ Anagatavamsa commentary:"""'How will it occur? After my decease there will first be five disappearances. What five? The disappearance of attainment (in the Dispensation), the disappearance of proper conduct, the disappearance of learning, the disappearance of the outward form, the disappearance of the relics. There will be these five disappearances. 'Here attainment means that for a thousand years only after the lord's complete Nirvana will monks be able to practice analytical insights. As time goes on and on these disciples of mine are nonreturners and once-returners and stream-winners. There will be no disappearance of attainment for these. But with the extinction of the last stream-winner's life, attainment will have disappeared. "As time goes on and on learning will decay. In this decay the Great Patthana itself will decay first. In this decay also (there will be) Yamaka, Kathavatthu, Puggalapannati, Dhatukatha, Vibhanga and Dhammasangani. When the Abhidhamma Pitaka decays the Suttanta Pitaka will decay. When the Suttantas decay the Anguttara will decay first. When it decays the Samyutta Nikaya, the Majjhima Nikaya, the Digha Nikaya and the Khuddaka-Nikaya will decay. They will simply remember the jataka together with the Vinaya Pitaka. But only the conscientious (monks) will remember the Vinaya Pitaka. As time goes on and on, being unable to remember even the jataka, the Vessantara-jataka will decay first.""""""" _________________ Howard: After 2500 years, the jhanas are attainable, analytic >>insights, if that includes the tilakkhana, are attainable to *some* degree even in very >>>ordinary people such as myself, and to considerably higher degree in others [I do >>>strongly believe that there are newly attained ariyans in this world], and the tipitaka, after, no doubt, some loss *early* on, seems to be in rather secure >>shape now, being preserved by print and electronic media, and not only by the >>memory of human beings. _______________ The `analytical insights' is a translation of patisambhida and means the special wisdom of the greatest type of arahants. After these type become extinct there are still sukkhavipassaka arahants, who have no special powers. I think you are right that the new forms of media will slow the loss of the Pariyatti. We see how the arahants at the 4th council decided to commit it to writing with this aim in mind – as they could see how suuceeding generations would find it hard to preserve based on oral tradition alone. However, even though the complete Patthana is available now – very few people now study it in depth. And the Jataka commentaries such as Vessantara are already often scoffed at. ________________ Howard:>Many Theravadins charge the Mahayanists, with considerable justification, I think, of creating new teachings which, while often >quite worthwhile and in perfect harmony with the Buddha word, are not Buddha word but are >put forward as such. Most of those "sutras", however, at least have the advantage >of positivity, encouraging continued practice of the Dharma. But this >work, >apparently constructed by a Theravadin Metteya cult lacks even that. __________ Yes there is obviously much in the Mahayana that is true and valuable. Cakkavatti-sutta (Digha-nikaya) p403(walshe) "and in that time of the people with an eighty-thousand year life span there will arise in the world an arahant fully-enlightened Buddha named Metteya…..he will be attended by a company of thousands of monks"" Even in the Buddha's time there were some who thought they had attainments but who were deluded. Wrong view is very subtle sometimes. :Anguttara Nikaya Book of the tens XI (iii) 103 Wrongness: "From wrong view proceeds wrong thinking; ….From wrong effort proceeds wrong mindfulness; from that wrong concentration. From wrong concentration proceeds wrong knowledge. From wrong knowledge proceeds wrong release." As time goes on there will be more misunderstandings about what is the path and what is not. Imitation concentration and insight will increase and what is micchavimutti will be taken for true nibbana As the centuries pass apparently monks behaviour will slowly deteriorate- Although there will continue to be outstanding ones, these will be a declining percentage and so it becomes harder to preserve the DhammaVinaya. . Kindred Sayings xvi, 12 "Thus have I heard: The Exalted One was once staying at Savatthi, at Jeta Grove, in the Anathapindika Park. Now the venerable Maha-Kassapa went into his presence, saluted him and sat down beside him. So seated, the venerable Maha-Kassapa said this to the Exalted One: 'What now, Lord, are the conditions, what is the cause that formerly there were both fewer precepts and more brethren were established as Arahants ? What, lord, are the conditions, what is the cause that now-a-days there are more precepts and fewer brethren are established as Arahants?' 'It happens thus, Kassapa. When members decrease, and the true doctrine disappears, there are then more precepts, and few brethren are established as Arahants. There is no disappearing of the true doctrine, Kassapa, till a counterfeit doctrine arises in the world; but when a counterfeit doctrine does arise, then there is a disappearance of the true doctrine. Just as there is no disappearing of gold so long as there is no counterfeit gold arisen in the world. So it is with the true doctrine. ' The earth-element, Kassapa, does not make the true doctrine disappear, nor does the water-element, nor the heat-element, nor the air-element. But here in the Order itself futile men arise, and it is they who make the true doctrine disappear. 'Take the sinking of a ship, Kassapa, by overlading: it is not thus that the true doctrine disappears. There are five lowering things that conduce to the obscuration and disappearance of the true doctrine. Which five? 'It is when brethren and sisters, laymen and laywomen live in irreverence and are unruly toward the Teacher, live in irreverence and are unruly toward the training, live in irreverence and are unruly toward concentrative study. 'But when they live in reverence and docility toward these Five, then do these five things conduce to the maintenance, the clarity, the presence of the true doctrine."" RobertK : 24387 From: Sarah Date: Wed Aug 20, 2003 1:13am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Is solitude not dukkha? As well as absence of love and friendsh... Hi Victor (Howard & Nori), I think Howard’s gentle comments summarised my thoughts on this topic very well. Anyway, I’ve been reflecting further, so I’ll add a little more. --- yu_zhonghao wrote: > To live alone in solitude is to give up that attachment. And to > give up that attachment, one is to live alone in solitude. .... I think I’m the one supplying the textual support on this thread, Victor;-) Why don’t you think in all those suttas when the Buddha addressed Anathapinidika, that he and his large family and servants were never told to live in solitude (i.e physically alone without family or possessions as you understand the word)? .... V:> Let me use the analogy of smoking. > Addiction to nicoltine propels one keep smoking as a habit. > Unless one sees that smoking is unhealthy to self and desires to > live healthy, one would just keep smoking. > Without actually refraining from smoking, addiction to nicoltine > would never be eradicated. ..... OK, to follow your analogy a little further, the Buddha also teaches us that we are addicted to and intoxicated by what is appearing through the 6 senses. How should the addiction be eradicated? Starting with visible objects appearing, would it not follow that for a start, we should wander around blindfold. Then we could have our ears blocked, our sense of smell and taste removed, our hands tied and so on. Of course, as you describe, there might be some withdrawal symptoms..... Does a blind or deaf person really have less attachment to visible objects and sounds? Not that I’m aware of. ..... V:> Now, refraining from smoking does not necessarily mean that one's > addiction to nicoltine is completely eradicated. > However, refraining from smoking is necessary to eradicate the > addiction to nicoltine. .... Is refraining from seeing necessary to eradicate this kind of addiction?? Victor, I apologise if these comments sound flippant. I take this thread seriously and am glad you are still discussing it. I agree with you that there is a lot of attachment for most of us in our family lives and I’ve never encouraged anyone to follow in my footsteps in this regard;-) On the otherhand, I think we have to really be honest to face up to our inclinations and to know how we can live easily whilst developing our understanding of the Dhamma. Some of our friends on DSG can live very well in a hermitage or with very limited contact with others and without any possessions. Whilst I admire this, for myself, I know that when I try to live this way, it is very ‘forced’ and unnatural and is symptomatic of a desire for certain speeded up results for ME, rather than evidence of greater understanding and detachment. I think we have to really know our own inclinations in these regards. As it says in the commentary to the Samannaphala Sutta, the one lacks the four requisites of moral discipline, restraint over the sense faculties, mindfulness and clear comprehension, and contentment, "does not succeed in his forest life. He would fall under the same category as animals or forest wanderers." As the suttas we’ve quoted recently, such as the Thera sutta or Migajala sutta show, the true meaning of ‘living alone’ as described by the Buddha, refers to the living without attachment: ‘Migajala, even though a bhikkhu who dwells thus lives in the vicinity of a village, associating with bhikkhus and bhikkhunis, with male and felmale lay follower, with kings and royal ministers, with sectarian teachers and their disciples, he is still called a lone dweller. For what reason? Because craving is his partner and he has abandoned it; therefore his is called a lone dweller." (SN, Bk of 6 Sense Bases.63, B.Bodhi trans) You may feel that I keep quoting the same suttas (and it’s true;-)). However, I came across a short article I wrote a long time ago. This is an extract which includes a quote from the Migasala Sutta --not to be confused with Migajala--, AN, Bk of 6s,v.44 (PTS, Hare transl). I see that B.Bodhi gives the title ‘Don’t Judge Others!’(p.159. Numerical Discourses). ***** Migasala comes to see Ananda. She explains that the Buddha said that both her father, Purana, and her uncle, Isidatta reached the same level of enlightenment. She cannot understand it because she says her father lived ‘the godly life, dwelling apart, abstaining from common, carnal things’. Isidatta, on the other hand ‘did not live the godly life but rejoiced with a wife’. When Ananda repeats the conversation to the Buddha, the Buddha explains their different characters, their different strengths and weaknesses to show that ‘herein Isidatta fares not Purana’s way but another’s.’ He also urges Ananda not to be a ‘measurer of persons; measure not the measure of persons; verily, Ananda, he digs a pit for himnself who measures the measure of persons. I alone, Ananda, can measure their measure - or one like me.’ In this sutta the Buddha also gives examples of two people who might be of similar nature and judged equally by the ‘measurer of persons’. In fact there may be conditions for one of those judged to hear and understand the Teachings and who after death ‘fares to excellence’. He explains again that the harm is to the ‘measurer’... .....we can begin to know more and more about the subtle as well as gross degrees of comparison, when we have an idea for even an instant that we are better, equal or worse than others in some way, such as in our lifestyle. Sometimes we may feel let down by inconsistencies in others’ behaviour or we may have a wonderful image of someone which is crushed. If we understand more about the different conditioned realities we will realise that while we are not enlightened, our deep-rooted tendencies make us capable of almost any deed through body, speech or mind. Realising this, we can be more understanding and sympathetic, without trying to change our nature to how we think it should be. ***** I just tried to find an on-line link for you. Hope this works: http://www.metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/4Anguttara-Nikaya/Anguttara6/10-dasakanipata/008-akankhavaggo-e.htm Victor, in summary, I appreciate and agree with your comments about the danger of attachment to a partner, children and so on. Indeed we read many suttas about the bondage involved. Sumana’s example (Anathapindaka’s daughter that died of a broken heart after not finding a husband in spite of being enlightened) is indeed a good reminder of this danger. Where we differ, however, is in our perception of the medicine for this intoxication and the way to eradicate it, I think. Look forward to your further comments. Metta, Sarah p.s Nori, thanks for the thread!! ====== 24388 From: Sukinderpal Singh Narula Date: Wed Aug 20, 2003 2:00am Subject: Re: [dsg] *** FOR SUKIN **** Hi Sarah and Christine, Sarah, the content of our correspondence was concerning the Burma trip, nothing profound. As of late the cittas arising here have been not just darting amongst unrealities, but lots and lots of kilesas have been conditioned to arise. Obviously the circumstances are not to be blamed, but shortage of accumulated panna. :-( However I have been very much enjoying the discussions on dsg and am very grateful to all those who have posted. I am especially happy for the arrival of Icaro here in this group, he is a real inspiration. Hello Icaro, welcome to dsg from me! :-) With regard to the value of my input, I find that others always say things much more clearer and in greater depth than I can. But you will be happy to note that eventhough I do not write, partly because I am usually about a day late in my reading, I discover later that many of the reponses match mine. The latest being Kom's response in the Rt. Livelihood thread. But as I said, he understands things much more deeply and is more experienced with the particular outlook. Even some of your own responses, have almost exactly matched mine ;-). Sarah, I am not thinking about "labels, terms, Pali" right now, but if something comes up, I may write something, but not now... Chris, I do not think the problem is your mail system, but I do have problems with mine, actually not all the posts from dsg come to my mailbox even. Will end here. Metta, Sukin. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > Hi Sukin (& Azita), > > --- christine_forsyth wrote: > Dear Sukin (and > Azita), > > > > Sorry to use dsg for this - > > Just to say I AM replying to your emails - > > .... > Hope DSG is going to receive some mail from you too;-)That way, we all > share your pearls of wisdom;-) > > Sukin, what are your latest reflections on the use of labels, terms, Pali > and other aspects you raised when we were in Bkk. Would be great if you > could introduce the topic in a simple way. > > Metta, > > Sarah > ====== 24389 From: Sarah Date: Wed Aug 20, 2003 2:23am Subject: Re: [dsg] duty of soldiers Dear Nina (Lodewijk, Mike & Dan), --- nina van gorkom wrote: > I hope others (Mike, Sarah) can help me how to explain better about: > "just > nama and rupa, just visible object!". I mean, how do explain it to > Lodewijk. .... I don’t think the words or explanation are really the problem. I think the Dhamma is so profound and when we begin to realise this and to understand its value, it can be very frustrating when there doesn’t seem to be any panna (direct understanding)and when we can’t quite ‘grasp’ what is being said. We see this expressed over and over again on DSG. Lodwijk should realise that most people experience the same frustration and annoyance at times when hearing these simple truths about ‘just nama and rupa’. I forget if you had joined when Dan started writing his series about how discouraging some of the posts were (mostly Jon’s and mine, I think). He started with 1.1 ‘Discouraging..’ and we thought there was going to be a long series, but somewhere along the track it underwent a U-turn;-)(Dan, I think that deep down we’re still half expecting and dreading 1.2;-)) Of course no one speaks or writes or asks questions about the Dhamma in order for people to feel discouraged or despondent, but given the nature of attachment to views and self, I think it’s inevitable that this will follow - especially when we find out what beginners we are on the path, or rather how much ignorance has been accumulated. If we didn’t see the value at all in the teachings, then I don’t think there would be these often strong reactions. (It reminds me of the warning that Ken H says Mr Goenka gives during the middle of his course ;-)) None of this is to suggest that we shouldn’t try to find other ways to express the little we understand of the Dhamma or even to keep quiet at times. I like all Mike’s suggestions. Rather like the example of Ananda’s welcome, different explanations are sometimes more appropriate, but we’re not Ananda and you always do your best. I know Lodewijk is very, very grateful for all your writings too,‘The Perfections’ in particular. For myself, I’d greatly appreciate hearing any comments Lodewijk has on topics such as the ‘Right Livelihood’ one. He has had such great experience of working with people from all walks of life. Also when I wrote about ‘correctness of welcome’, I thought about his courteous and appropriate greetings to everyone, everytime - just like the King’s. Perhaps if he shares a few comments or reflections (I know you have to do the typing), it will give him a rest from thinking about your father and his problems or about his own frustrations. Like we’ve said before, it’s very therapeutic to talk about Dhamma to others and consider their difficulties too. When we see how common these kilesa are, we can smile and laugh - like about the cry babies. I’m one as well whenever Jon goes on a trip;-) Mike will know what I’m talking about in the example above about ‘Discouraging’ and I’m sure he will have some very good suggestions too. Dan as well if he’s settled in on the west coast.(Just not 1.2 please!!) Metta, Sarah p.s I also remember Christine's frustration with the 'anatta and no control' thread and as she's said with 'puppets' and 'stories'. Perhaps she can also add some suggestions to help. ===== 24390 From: Sukinderpal Singh Narula Date: Wed Aug 20, 2003 2:26am Subject: Re: Systematic Study of Dhamma Hi Manu, You may remember me, we met in my shop in Panthip Plaza!? Welcome to the group. I can't help you with ideas about systematic study, I am the most unsystematic person I know! ;-) Since I am from Bangkok, I can however give you an idea with regard to availability of good Dhamma books. The best ones, the Tipitaka and commentaries are never available in its entirety nor even enough to satisfy one's chandha for a collection of good books. Sometimes however, The Mahamakata (sp?) Bookshop, opposte Wat Bavorn near Banglumphoo, has selected tiltles from BPS and PTS. There is no other place in Bangkok or Chiang Mai! I like to order for myself from Pariyatti Books, and I would recommend this to you too. This is their address: http://www.pariyatti.com I trust them with my credit card information. Some very good books are however for free, and you can get them from me when you visit Bkk next. ;-) These are books distributed by the Foundation of which K. Sujin is the head. Some of the books are by her and some by Nina. Hope to see your own contributions to the list. Metta, Sukin. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Manu Wadhwani" wrote: > Dear Dhamma friends: > > I joined this group some time back and have been following the discussions > with considerable interest and awe. Although many of the things being said > go over my head, it strengthens my resolve to carry on the study of Dhamma > further. Opportunity to hear (and learn) Dhamma is one of the most > precious things and I am sincerely grateful to all the members of this group > for being given this opportunity. > > My name is Manu Wadhwani. I have been living in Laos for a long time. I > started meditation and reading about Dhamma about 6 years ago. > > My study of Dhamma, like all new comers I would guess, is reading all that I > can lay my hands on. I am not sure if that is the best approach. Is there > any prescribed way of studying Dhamma? It would be very interesting to hear > from the members of this group about how they have structured their study > because all seem so well organized, quoting and pointing to the references > on any given topic immediately. > > Since many of the members are familiar with Thailand, can anyone suggest > where I can buy English translations of the Canon in Bangkok or Chiang Mai? > > Respectfully, > Manu Wadhwani 24391 From: Sarah Date: Wed Aug 20, 2003 2:43am Subject: Re: [dsg] *** FOR SUKIN **** Hi Sukin (& Eddie), Good to hear from you both;-) --- Sukinderpal Singh Narula wrote: >As of late the cittas arising here have been not > > just darting amongst unrealities, but lots and lots of kilesas have been > > conditioned to arise. Obviously the circumstances are not to be blamed, > but shortage of accumulated panna. :-( .... Sukin, I’m sorry to read between the lines that things may not have been too good for you recently. Like Anathapindika, I know that even if your wealth is reduced to ‘bird-seed and sour gruel’ you’ll continue to show your generosity which will bring its own reward. ..... > However I have been very much enjoying the discussions on dsg and > am very grateful to all those who have posted. I am especially happy for > > the arrival of Icaro here in this group, he is a real inspiration. Hello > > Icaro, welcome to dsg from me! :-) .... I know. I think DSG will seem like boot-camp when he leaves us for his military one. Perhaps he’ll be able to sneak out the occasional postcard to us all to ‘upright’ our withdrawal symptoms. (Hope I’m not encouraging anything naughty and against the rules, Icaro.) .... > With regard to the value of my input, I find that others always say > things > much more clearer and in greater depth than I can. .... Would that be a tad of maana (conceit) sneaking in there, Sukin?? ..... >But you will be > happy to note that eventhough I do not write, partly because I am > usually about a day late in my reading, .... ...No excuse.... .... >I discover later that many of > the > reponses match mine. The latest being Kom's response in the Rt. > Livelihood thread. But as I said, he understands things much more > deeply and is more experienced with the particular outlook. Even some > of your own responses, have almost exactly matched mine ;-). .... I must be doing something right in that case, Sukin! Kom, too!! .... > Chris, I do not think the problem is your mail system, but I do have > problems with mine, actually not all the posts from dsg come to my > mailbox even. ... I agree with Sukin. I seldom send him any note off-list as I know his mail system rejects most;-( At least here, others read it. Just add a Dhammapada verse to your Burma notes....;-)Thx for encouraging him. Also, Eddie, great to see you around again. Look forward to more of your contributions. Metta, Sarah ====== 24392 From: Sarah Date: Wed Aug 20, 2003 3:05am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Kasina Meditation Question Hi Stephen M, Thank you for joining us here and for sharing from the books given to you by Ven U.Vimala. Your question (to Nina) was very interesting. I look forward to reading any further comments you have on the responses. ..... --- alpha16draconis wrote: > > I have dozens of little books that were indended for English speaking > bhikkhus that were printed in Burma and given to me by Ven. U. Vimala > to assist me in Right Understanding. ..... I presume you are referring to Right Understanding of the eightfold path, i.e vipassana? ..... > Only if vipassana insight meditation is practiced, will one be able > to realize nibbana and be completely free from all kinds of misery > and sufferings. There are two modes of practicing vipassana > meditation. They are: (1) practicing samatha using it as a vehicle for > the attainment of vipassana nana. > (2) practicing kammathana vipassana pure and > directly without the basic exercise of > samatha. > A person who practices kamatthanna vipassana meditation without using > samatha as a ground work, is known as suddha-vipassanayanika. > > A person who practices meditation for realization of nibbana making > use of samatha as a frame-work is known as samathayanika, which means > a person who 'makes his way' to nibbana using samatha as a vehicle. ..... There is a lot that can be discussed in just this section that you quote from Mahasi Sayadaw. I think the two ‘modes’ referred to relate to the way nibbana is realised. For me, the main point to remember is that in truth there is no self or person to ‘practice’ or ‘do’ anything. Vipassana has to be the path of detachment from any idea of self regardless of the objects experienced, I think. Stephen, I look forward to any further contributions you make and notes from those little books. You’ll soon find that there are a whole range of understandings here about aspects of the Dhamma, including jhanas and their role. What we all share is a great respect for these teachings and a sincere interest to share and question the various viewpoints. I think it is the (friendly and respectful) diversity of reflections on the same texts that keeps this such a busy spot;-) Metta, Sarah ====== 24393 From: icaro franca Date: Wed Aug 20, 2003 3:05am Subject: Re: [dsg] *** FOR SUKIN **** Hi Sarah: Sukin: " the arrival of Icaro here in this group, he is a > real inspiration. Hello > > > > Icaro, welcome to dsg from me! :-) > .... Sarah: "I know. I think DSG will seem like boot-camp when he > leaves us for his > military one. Perhaps he’ll be able to sneak out the > occasional postcard > to us all to ‘upright’ our withdrawal symptoms. > (Hope I’m not encouraging > anything naughty and against the rules, Icaro.)" ------------------------------------------------------- Oh... Oh... it´s flattening!!! My other colleagues will meet with me at September 10 to stand the final details of travel! Undoubtfully I will keep contact with you all at Boot Camp if there is a Computer linked to net available! Don´t worry, Sarah! Don´t you tempt me! Don´t you tempt me...hahahahah!!!! Mettaya, Ícaro ===== Seize the time, there´s only minutes left to zero Just got a little taste, I gotta get some more, Just me and you 24394 From: eaglenarius Date: Wed Aug 20, 2003 3:41am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Rare human birth1 Hello Robert, Below explanation makes me panic. This is very horrible. I cannot imagine to compare our understanding to Bodhisatva, then it is surely come to a conclusion that most of us will rebirt to sometimes to animal realm, mostly to hell realm. In Buddhist text how does it feel living in hell realm ? is it the same as in Christianity or Mohammedisme? Before, I thought if we try to live according to Buddhisme even in the first (or half, maybe) step, we will rebirth in a realm which supports the first step to the next step until we attain nibbana. But now I'm quite panic to know that we will 'forget' with high probability our mission/step in the next rebirth. Please correct me, if I misunderstood. Thanks, Eagle -----Original Message----- From: rjkjp1 [mailto:rjkjp1@y...] Sent: Monday, August 18, 2003 10:46 AM To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Subject: [dsg] Re: Rare human birth1 The Brahmajala sutta commentary says that the one with extreme wrongview is the one who becomes 'rooted in the round" . There are many cases of those who were beginning to develop right understanding- but who took animal or hellish rebirth, who soon came back to human life. Even the Bodhisata\ta , after gaining prediction of Buddhahood many times was born as animal and even in hell. Another example is queen Malika - died, went to hell for 7 days , then to deva world, visited Buddha and became a sotapanna. Robert -------------------------- 24395 From: eaglenarius Date: Wed Aug 20, 2003 3:41am Subject: RE: [dsg] duty of soldiers Hello Sarah, Sorry for the late reply. -----Original Message----- From: Sarah [mailto:sarahdhhk@y...] Sent: Saturday, August 16, 2003 7:58 PM To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [dsg] duty of soldiers Hi Eagle, No problem - Icaro/Icarus can’t either;-) Thank you also for initially telling us a little about yourself. I noticed that you live near Jakarta and sincerely hope there are no more terrorist attacks there. --------------------------- EAGLE : I appreciate your hope. If I were Wishmaster, I would say "as you wish". It was a terrible blast caused by ignorance or wrong view, wasn't it ? ------------------------------------ We have a few other fairly quiet members from Indonesia. I hope you can encourage them with your contributions;-) Please don’t think you need to share anything brilliant (as you mentioned before) - we all lack knowledge and just try to support and encourage each other as friends. Sometimes too, the simplest questions and comments are the best. Actually, I can tell from your comments that you are quite familiar with the Dhamma and just being modest, I think. -------------------------------------- EAGLE : Actually, I'm a real idiot. I've know Buddhism for quite a long time, but I remember very little of it. The more I read, the more it flies away from my memory. I wonder how could all of members here know/remember so much about Pali Canon, even could show the text / sutta. Amazing !!! I'm really admiring that. ---------------------------- Thanks, Eagle 24396 From: Date: Wed Aug 20, 2003 1:16am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Disappearance of the Sasana Hi, Robert - Thank you so much for this well worked out and helpful reply. (I include only enough of your writing below to identify the post to other readers.) In a message dated 8/20/03 4:13:15 AM Eastern Daylight Time, rjkjp1@y... writes: > Dear Howard. > The Theravada have been concerned with preserving the teaching as > well as practising it. Correct practice depends on correct theory so > the two are related. Still if we are overly concerned with the > preservation of the theory – without a proper insight into the > application then that concern is likely to be weighed down by > upadana (attachment) and not be beneficial to anyone. On the other > hand if we accept the theory and endeavour to practice correctly, > but then have disdain for the efforts of the sangha over centuries > who preserved it then that seems ungrateful. > The desana is actually both a warning and a prediction. As a warning > it conditions samvega for us to work towards keeping the > Dhammavinaya without altering it. As a prediction it lets us be > balanced and know that these matters will occur, and also let us > make efforts now to insight the teachings, as they will soon be past. > ____________________________ > =============================== I particularly appreciate the following in your reply: The mention of the purpose of instilling a realization of urgency and the need to preserve - very worthy, and the clarification you give of the so called analytic insights as "the special wisdom of the greatest type of arahants." This latter clarification, in particular, makes the predictive aspects of the work more plausible to me. I also appreciate your inclusion of the suttic reference of Kindred Sayings xvi, 12. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 24397 From: Sarah and Jonothan Abbott Date: Wed Aug 20, 2003 6:31am Subject: Reminders; Info about email commands Hi All, A couple of reminders, and some useful information. First the reminders. Trimming When replying to another member’s post, please remember to delete as much of the other post as possible, keeping only the part that is necessary for your reply. (This applies to any part of the other post that appears *before* your own message, as well as to the part appearing after your message.) Salutation etc Please use a salutation at the beginning of each post, to make it clear who you are addressing/replying to, and sign off the end (preferably with a real name). Thanks for your co-operation. Now for the information. The email commands given below can be used for the functions indicated (and will save you a visit to the website). To use any of the commands, just send a blank email to the address shown. 1. To change your subscription to receive a daily digest of the messages posted: dhammastudygroup-digest@yahoogroups.com 2. To change your subscription to receive individual copies of each message posted: dhammastudygroup-normal@yahoogroups.com 3. To change your subscription so as not to receive any messages for the time being: dhammastudygroup-nomail@yahoogroups.com 4. To receive general help information: dhammastudygroup-help@yahoogroups.com Jon and Sarah PS As usual, any comments or questions should be sent to us off-list only. Thanks. 24398 From: rjkjp1 Date: Wed Aug 20, 2003 7:56am Subject: [dsg] Re: Rare human birth1 ---> Subject: [dsg] Re: Rare human birth1 > > > The Brahmajala sutta commentary says that the one with extreme > wrongview is the one who becomes 'rooted in the round" . > There are many cases of those who were beginning to develop right > understanding- but who took animal or hellish rebirth, who soon came > back to human life. Even the Bodhisata\ta , after gaining prediction > of Buddhahood many times was born as animal and even in hell. > Another example is queen Malika - died, went to hell for 7 days , > then to deva world, visited Buddha and became a sotapanna. > Robert In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "eaglenarius" wrote: > Hello Robert, > > THIS explanation makes me panic. This is very horrible. I cannot imagine to > compare our understanding to Bodhisatva, then it is surely come to a > conclusion that most of us will rebirt to sometimes to animal realm, mostly > to hell realm. In Buddhist text how does it feel living in hell realm ? is > it the same as in Christianity or Mohammedisme? > Before, I thought if we try to live according to Buddhisme even in the first > (or half, maybe) step, we will rebirth in a realm which supports the first > step to the next step until we attain nibbana. But now I'm quite panic to > know that we will 'forget' with high probability our mission/step in the > next rebirth. > Please correct me, if I misunderstood. > > Thanks, > Eagle >__________ Dear Eagle, Things aren't so bad. We have been born countless times in the lower realms but we have also accumulated much merit so that now we can hear Dhamma and be human. The bodhisatta has to go through much difficulties as these are the grindstone against which the parami are sharpened. As disciples we have it easier. Majjhima Nikaya Sutta 22: Last paragraph: Bhikkhus the Dhamma well proclaimed by me is clear open, evident, and free of patchwork. In the Dhamma proclaimed by me thus .. bhikkhus who have sufficient faith in me, sufficient love for me, are all headed for heaven". And for those born in heaven who have Dhamma insight: Anguttara Nikaya CHAPTER XX Mahavaggo THE GREAT CHAPTER(1) Blessings ""BRETHREN, four blessings should be expected from listening to with the ear, constant recitation with the voice, careful consideration with the mind and penetration of the Norm through insight (1). What four ? Herein, brethren, a brother masters the Norm consisting of the Suttas..... Vedalla (2). He thus listens to, constantly recites, carefully ponders over and penetrates the Norm. When he dies bewildered (3) in mind and is reborn in a certain assembly of devas, there the blissful ones recite to him the stanzas of the Norm. Brethren, the arising of mindfulness is slow, but such a being quickly achieves distinction therein.(4) Brethren, this is the first blessing that should be expected from listening to, constant recitation, careful consideration and penetration of the Norm through insight.""" Robert 24399 From: Date: Wed Aug 20, 2003 4:38am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Rare human birth1 Hi, Robert - Your eye for picking suttas never fails to amaze me, Robert. What you present here is so encouraging and positive, so offsetting of fear, and, at the same time, presenting the choice of the more fear-filled and demanding career of Bodhisatta vs the less fearful path of the hearer. I think this is a real contribution to the understanding of many of us. With metta, Howard In a message dated 8/20/03 11:01:57 AM Eastern Daylight Time, rjkjp1@y... writes: Dear Eagle, Things aren't so bad. We have been born countless times in the lower realms but we have also accumulated much merit so that now we can hear Dhamma and be human. The bodhisatta has to go through much difficulties as these are the grindstone against which the parami are sharpened. As disciples we have it easier. Majjhima Nikaya Sutta 22: Last paragraph: Bhikkhus the Dhamma well proclaimed by me is clear open, evident, and free of patchwork. In the Dhamma proclaimed by me thus .. bhikkhus who have sufficient faith in me, sufficient love for me, are all headed for heaven". And for those born in heaven who have Dhamma insight: Anguttara Nikaya CHAPTER XX Mahavaggo THE GREAT CHAPTER(1) Blessings ""BRETHREN, four blessings should be expected from listening to with the ear, constant recitation with the voice, careful consideration with the mind and penetration of the Norm through insight (1). What four ? Herein, brethren, a brother masters the Norm consisting of the Suttas..... Vedalla (2). He thus listens to, constantly recites, carefully ponders over and penetrates the Norm. When he dies bewildered (3) in mind and is reborn in a certain assembly of devas, there the blissful ones recite to him the stanzas of the Norm. Brethren, the arising of mindfulness is slow, but such a being quickly achieves distinction therein.(4) Brethren, this is the first blessing that should be expected from listening to, constant recitation, careful consideration and penetration of the Norm through insight.""" Robert /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra)