25000 From: icaro franca Date: Fri Sep 5, 2003 0:59pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: peace, Icaro Dear Connie: connie:" ... but I didn't do any > artificial > respiration or anything." ----------------------------------------------------- (Woe to me if I break the high mind and spirit of this noble company of Pali and Dhamma students! God Forbids!!! But...I can´t resist...) HEHEHEHEHEHEHEHEHEHEHEHEHEHEHEHEHEH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Doing artificial respiration on flies...HAH ! ---------------------------------------------------- > Connie:" For the most part, no Beach Boys, heavy metal or > rap. For the rest, ok. > Something might be a favorite one time and then I > don't like it next > time I hear it." ------------------------------------------------------ So let it be. I am a bit eccletical on appreciating musical genres. Sometimes I need a shot of cafeine or something alike... and a good Heavy Metal beat do it very well. I don´t like rap and... as a tradition of Family, I like Tango!!! Classical and synphonic hits glad me too! ---------------------------------------------------- > Connie:" Yes, Nichiren is very different and I'm afraid I'm a > bit like a fly > myself to friends who put their faith there. Still, > the chanting > doesn't go away and I do like the LS." --------------------------------------------------- There are two types of Nichiren: the traditional one at clerical style and the layperson´s organizations: there is a lot of striffing between them!!! Anyway, the "Nam Myoho Rengue Kio" chanted with bhava and metta is really, really inspiring! And many animes like "Sakura Card Captors" ( sorry... I simply don´t know if you do like or not animated cartoons!) mention entire chapters of the LS!!! The LS is very interesting and a good reading at any time!!! You are at a good path, Connie!!! That´s the right mind to follow up!!!! With plenty of metta and peace, Ícaro ===== Seize the time, there´s only minutes left to zero Just got a little taste, I gotta get some more, Just me and you 25001 From: icaro franca Date: Fri Sep 5, 2003 1:07pm Subject: Re: [dsg] dsgn, rupa and Pali accents Dear Nina: N:" arana should be spelled: ara.na (this is > Velthuis, a dot under the n, > which makes a lot of difference). It means: far > from, away from." ---------------------------------------------------- PERFECT !!!!!!!!!!!!!! That is it, Nina!!! Don´t need to worry about Velthuis replacements: I use Norman Pali fonts that replaces the dotted n by ñ...which is supported by my portuguese ABNT keyboard. Is not Arana, is Araña... far from!!! Nina... thanks thanks thanks thanks.... The Dhammasangani now is becoming more and more akin of my understanding! With full Metta, Ícaro ===== Seize the time, there´s only minutes left to zero Just got a little taste, I gotta get some more, Just me and you 25002 From: torloff87048 Date: Fri Sep 5, 2003 1:39pm Subject: [dsg] Re:Vism XIV, 7 (4) Dear Howard, Larry and Sarah, I'd like to add my understanding of concepts to what's already been said. Nothing new here, just a different emphasis and way of expressing it. Comments welcome. Concepts do not exist in any form. They are a conventional reality. To see why this is so, consider a related topic: Words. Words do not exist, either. Why not? Let's apprehend what is happening here and now and see that words as independent realities having their own nature are nowhere to be found. There are conditions giving rise to verbal intimation on my part. This is rupa born of citta. No words there, just rupa. Through many processes of the four elements, this rupa eventually gives rise to rupa that is manifested as color before your eyes. Your eye-contact with that color gives rise to various cittas and cetasikas. The objects of those cittas are always one of citta, cetasika, rupa or Nibbana. Some of these objects are previous cetasikas of perception, conditioned by previous experiences such as with verbal intimation, citta and cetasika. Speaking conventionally, we say that these objects are "marked by perception" and we might imagine that a word is such a mark. But this is a deceptive model. What we are really doing is perceiving a previous perception. The previous perception is the mark we are perceiving. No words there, either. Now the perception of such an object, along with feelings, volition, etc., may ultimately give rise to a speech volition and verbal intimation (rupa) on your part. The form of this rupa as speech or writing that others can interpret is conditioned from past experience as well. And so it goes on and on. There are no words anywhere in this process. There is only rupa, citta, cetasika and (if we are fortunate) Nibbana. The purpose of the verbal intimation that gave rise to the Abhidhamma and other such books (i.e. rupa) is to assist people in the development of insight and liberation. When conditions are right, this rupa can become an object of citta and lead towards purification. Towards this end, it might not be helpful for such a book to discuss the unreality of words and concepts. It's puzzling, to say the last, to read a sentence, conventionally regarded as being made up of words, that declares words do not exist. It's more helpful to speak of the conventional reality of words and concepts and to classify them in such a way that confusion does not arise. This is why the Abhidhamma speaks of concepts as objects of citta. But this is only verbal intimation giving rise to a particular manifestation of rupa in the form of the Abhidhamma. There are no words or concepts anywhere to be found. Just my 2 cents... Toby 25003 From: Ray Hendrickson Date: Fri Sep 5, 2003 2:51pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Bahiya5 - *Howard&Christine* - ordinary people? Hi everyone, in a message from Sarah to Howard: > > >H: I believe, by the example I gave recently of a retarded man who > achieved stream entry by following the Buddha's cloth-rubbing > instructions. He was surely not versed in Abhidhamma. But to write off the > Abhidhamma and the commentaries completely, and especially to do so > without an extensive, fair hearing, might well also be considered as going > "too far".< > .... > S: You did mention this before and I'd be interested in a reference if you or > someone else comes across it. It also half rings a bell to me. I'm also > thinking again of Christine's question about intelligence and insight. > I had an occasion to try to find this when asked about it on another message group. Unfortunately I could not find the exact Sutta, but did find reference to the Sutta. In the book "Buddhist Parables" by Eugene Watson Burlingame, the story is mentioned and is referenced to Buddhaghosa's Anguttara Commentary, Colombo, 1904, 130-135. From this perhaps someone can locate the Sutta....Ray 25004 From: Sarah Date: Fri Sep 5, 2003 2:54pm Subject: Welcomes for Susan Susan asked me to forward her note to the list -sent off-list by mistake. ============================================== Hi Sarah, Sarah: So glad to see you back - pls don't run away this time;-) Just keep asking simple qus and saying when you don't understand if anyone replies to you. --------------------- Susab: I won't run away Sara lol! I think last time I just wasn't ready so felt a bit overwhelmed with my own lack of understanding which made me feel a bit ignorant. However, the fact is I am ignorant and with that realisation I now feel ready to study the Dharma as opposed to reading it like a book which I hadn't actually realised I was doing. Thanks for the welcome.......... thank you to everyone for the warm welcome, and thank you Rob for giving me a place to start. I did have a look at the Abhidhamma and felt it was a bit complex for me at this time, so went to your suggested link Nina's "Buddhism in Daily Life", and found the Beginners section which I just what I need. Thanks Rob!! Susan 25005 From: icarofranca Date: Fri Sep 5, 2003 2:57pm Subject: Finally !!! Noble Fellows of this Distinct Company of Pali and Dhamma Students! After unspeakable efforts of searching and mining datum of any sorts, I finally discovered a gold mine of dhamma texts!!! http://www.palikanon.com At last,at this website I will download a full copy of the Visuddhimagga and of the Abhidhamma Sangaha in German!!!! I will shake my Deutsche Spreche maker and, wipping off the sweat of my brows, I will be able to follow the discussions of the Vism XIV !!!!!! To be or not to be, that´s the questiom!!!! Mettaya, Ícaro 25006 From: robmoult Date: Fri Sep 5, 2003 3:42pm Subject: The workings of sanna Hi Larry, Howard and others, I have been watching your "thinking" thread and wanted to contribute my understanding regarding the workings of sanna. The cittas in an eye-door citta process have "visible object" (rupa) as their object. A "visible object" is not a flower (flower is a concept). A visible object is a dot, a dot of colour. As an analogy, consider how television works. What appears on the screen is not a "flower", but rather many coloured dots that our mind constructs into an image of a "flower". The TV set simply presents dots to us and our mind does the rest. The eye-door citta process is followed by some bhavanga cittas and then a mind-door citta process arises, which takes a concept as object. The object of this first mind-door citta process after the eye-door citta process is the "mental image" of the visible object. The characteristic of the visible object (red, blue, etc.) was "marked" by the cetasika sanna in the cittas of the eye-door citta process. This characteristic is noted by the cetasika sanna in the cittas of the first mind-door citta process to mark the mental image (concept) of a coloured dot. The eye-door citta process now takes in another visible object (another dot) and a mental image (concept) of the second coloured dot is marked by the cetasika sanna. This is followed by more eye- door citta process, each with a mind-door citta process. When sufficient "dots" have been processed, a mind-door citta process with a concept of blocks of colour and shading is perceived. Blocks of colour and shading are marked by the cetasika sanna in the cittas of the mind-door citta process. It is the cetasika sanna which "recognizes" these marked blocks and the concept of shape or form becomes the object of more mind-door citta processes. This is followed by the critical step of naming or "designation". The shape or form, is marked as an object of a mind-door citta process. Subsequent mind-door citta processes note this marking and "remember" the name of "flower". It would appear that dots, blocks of colour / shading and shapes are "short term" memories, available to provide continuity, but not used for "long term memory". It would appear that long-term memories are tied to naming and this is why we cannot remember our early childhood (before we learned names for things). The Suttas explain that sanna creates concepts. We have seen that the sense-door citta process a small, elemental bit of information and the subsequent mind-door citta processes process this into increasingly complex concepts (Dots -> Blocks of colour -> Shapes -> Names). It is the role of the cetasika sanna to provide the "glue" that provides continuity by marking objects from one citta process and recognizing the marked objects in the subsequent mind-door citta process. The cetasika sanna also provides the "glue" that allows mental objects to become increasingly complex by recognizing mental objects and associating them with other concepts in first short-term and then in long-term memory. It is important to note that this "recognition" is superficial. The commentary gives the analogy of a blind man touching the head on an elephant and saying "an elephant is like a big kettle" while another blind man touches the ear and says "an elephant is like a big fan". The association used by sanna is superficial, without wisdom (panna). The association used by sanna is brief, like lightning. Unlike panna, sanna does not penetrate the true nature of the object. The building of the concept does not stop with "naming". Long term memory stores names with their associated feeling (pleasant, unpleasant, neutral). Along with the name, sanna also "remembers" the associated feeling. This stage of judgment is what completes the link between feeling and craving in dependent origination. Craving is conditioned by pleasant feeling associated with concepts. Visible objects condition neutral feeling and therefore do not condition craving directly. Pleasant feeling is associated with current concepts when sanna "remembers" past concepts and the associated pleasant feeling. This progression is described in the Honeyball Sutta (Mn18): Dependent on the eye and forms, eye consciousness arises. The meeting of the three is contact. With contact as a condition there is feeling. What one feels, that one perceives. What one perceives, that one thinks about. What one thinks about, that one obsesses. What obsesses one is the cause perceptions and notions tinged by obsession that beset a man with respect to past, future and present forms cognizable though the eye. The first paragraph explains how feeling arises naturally and objectively from contact. The key to understanding the second paragraph comes from the commentary, which explains that "perceives" should be interpreted as meaning "naming" (the Sanskrit equivalent of sanna, samja, means "name"). The wording of the second paragraph makes it clear that the process of naming, "thinking about" and obsession (papancasanna) is a subjective process. Visible objects with neutral feeling give rise to names (concepts) and it is these concepts which inherit pleasant feeling from the past memory (courtesy of sanna). The pleasant feeling conditions craving and, as explained in the third paragraph of the Honeyball Sutta, this conditions dukkha (and by extension, ties us to samsara). The Vibhanga (second book of the Abhidhamma Pitaka) classifies sanna as unwholesome (akusala), wholesome (kusala) and neutral. Whenever something is sensed, it is also recognized. Sanna always accompanies and follows vedana, but depending on the orientation of sanna, one may generate craving or start generating wisdom (by remembering the characteristics of existence; anicca, dukkha and anatta). According to the Suttas, unwholesome sanna conditions the arising of views (such as the personality view, sakaya-ditthi, based on ignorance), sorrow and obsession. Sanna can also be wholesome (kusala) when it is geared towards the recognition of elements essential for liberation. When Ananda reported that a monk was sick, the Buddha told Ananda to recite the "ten sanna" in front of the monk to condition kusala thoughts in the monk. The ten sanna are: - The recognition of impermanence (aniccasanna) - The recognition of selflessness (anattasanna) - The recognition of unpleasantness (asubhasanna) - The recognition of danger (adinavasanna) - The recognition of abandoning (pahanasanna) - The recognition of dispassion (viragasanna) - The recognition of cessation (nirodhasanna) - The recognition of disenchantment with the entire world (sabbaloke anabhiratasanna) - The recognition of impermanence in reference to all compounded things (sabbe sankharesu aniccasanna) - The mindfulness of breathing (anapanasati) Just as sanna is between feeling (vedana) and craving (tanha) in the chain of dependent origination, whenever the five aggregates are listed, sanna is always listed between feeling and sankhara (sankhara includes craving). Comments? Metta, Rob M :-) 25007 From: Eddie Lou Date: Fri Sep 5, 2003 3:54pm Subject: Pali language. Icaro, Thx for the website. Just curious, it seems like you are quite versed with Pali vocabulary. Did you grow up with or learn later? I may have missed the first part when you intro yourself. Anyone is welcome to join in to tell how (s)he pick up Pali. I myself been born in Myanmar, know some because Burmese language has adopted a lot of Pali since ancient time. Thx. Metta, Eddie. 25008 From: rjkjp1 Date: Fri Sep 5, 2003 3:57pm Subject: Re: The workings of sanna --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" wrote: > > The cittas in an eye-door citta process have "visible object" (rupa) > as their object. A "visible object" is not a flower (flower is a > concept). A visible object is a dot, a dot of colour. +++++++ Dear Robm, Do you have a reference for this. It is different from my understanding of rupayatanna. RobertK 25009 From: m. nease Date: Fri Sep 5, 2003 3:52pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Introduction to the Abhidhamma - Slide 1 for comment Hi Andrew and Howard, ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Friday, September 05, 2003 6:40 AM Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Introduction to the Abhidhamma - Slide 1 for comment > Hi, Andrew - > > VERY nice. Thank you! Agreed, both--much appreciated. mike 25010 From: robmoult Date: Fri Sep 5, 2003 4:32pm Subject: Introduction to the Abhidhamma - Slides 2-5 for comment Abhidhamma in the Buddhist Canon Slide Contents ============== Tipitaka (Three Baskets) Vinaya - Authorative teaching - Lists of rules and regulations for monks and nuns - "Avoid evil" Suttas - Conventional teaching - Has the form of recorded speeches - Uses common, imprecise language - "Do good" Abhidhamma - Ultimate teaching - Has the form of an advanced textbook - Uses precise, technical language - "Purify the mind" Speaker Notes ============= A "Canon" is a set of sacred books. In Theravada Buddhism, the sacred books are called "Tipitaka", which in Pali means "Three Baskets". All together, the Tipitaka is about eleven times the size of the Christian Bible. The first basket in the Tipitaka is the Vinaya. In the Vinaya, the Buddha used his authority to lay down rules of behaviour for monks and nuns. The Vinaya tells us to avoid evil through awareness. In society, "evil" usually implies hurting somebody else; in Buddhism, "evil" means contaminating our own minds. A contaminated mind is the forerunner of all evil speech or deeds. The second basket in the Tipitaka is the Suttas. These are the recorded speeches of the Buddha. They often start with the phrase, "Thus have I heard …" The Buddha used everyday, conversational language in the Suttas, depending on the audience to whom He was speaking. Many of the Suttas tell us to be good through effort and determination. In society, "being good" usually implies helping somebody else; in Buddhism, "good" means purifying our own minds. A pure mind is the forerunner of all good speech or deeds. The third basket in the Tipitaka is the Abhidhamma. The Abhidhamma has the form of an advanced textbook; like a textbook, it is difficult to sit down and start reading the Abhidhamma. The Abhidhamma uses precise technical terms. As an analogy, the common, imprecise language used by the Suttas are like an image on TV screen, whereas the technical, precise language used by the Abhidhamma are like the coloured dots which form image. The focus of the Abhidhamma is to purify the mind by seeing things as they truly are and thereby uprooting defilements. The Suttas and the Abhidhamma are two different ways of saying the same thing. 25011 From: m. nease Date: Fri Sep 5, 2003 4:44pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The workings of sanna Dear RobK, Do you take ruupaayattana to be the entire visual field? Does it arise (and subside) at once? mike ----- Original Message ----- From: rjkjp1 To: Sent: Friday, September 05, 2003 3:57 PM Subject: [dsg] Re: The workings of sanna > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" > wrote: > > > > The cittas in an eye-door citta process have "visible object" > (rupa) > > as their object. A "visible object" is not a flower (flower is a > > concept). A visible object is a dot, a dot of colour. > +++++++ > Dear Robm, > Do you have a reference for this. It is different from my > understanding of rupayatanna. > RobertK 25012 From: m. nease Date: Fri Sep 5, 2003 4:54pm Subject: Dhammadaana DSG, I felt the way Harry Potter must feel when Hedwig arrives--a big white 'Royal Mail' bag was propped against my door when I got home, containing the 'Dispeller of Delusion' and 'Summary and Exposition of the Topics of Abhidhamma', courtesy of our Mods (airmail, no less!)--hearty helpings of anumodanaa all around. Sarah and Jon, thanks so much--how should I use the latter? I'm unfamiliar with this title--wait, got it--it's the Abhihdammatthasangaha (the Summary) and the Abhidhammatthavibhaavinii (the Commentary). Do you compare the Exposition with BB's CMA? There's more here than I can hope to digest in what's left of this lifetime--thanks a million. mike 25013 From: m. nease Date: Fri Sep 5, 2003 4:26pm Subject: Re: [dsg] The workings of sanna Hi RobM, ----- Original Message ----- From: robmoult To: Sent: Friday, September 05, 2003 3:42 PM Subject: [dsg] The workings of sanna > The eye-door citta process is followed by some bhavanga cittas and > then a mind-door citta process arises, which takes a concept as > object. The object of this first mind-door citta process after the > eye-door citta process is the "mental image" of the visible object. > The characteristic of the visible object (red, blue, etc.) > was "marked" by the cetasika sanna in the cittas of the eye-door > citta process. This characteristic is noted by the cetasika sanna in > the cittas of the first mind-door citta process to mark the mental > image (concept) of a coloured dot. > > The eye-door citta process now takes in another visible object > (another dot) and a mental image (concept) of the second coloured > dot is marked by the cetasika sanna. This is followed by more eye- > door citta process, each with a mind-door citta process. This is pretty much as I see it too (no pun intended). Seems to me, though, that those processes are continually intersperesed with other sense- and mind-door processes so that, seemingly, as the (concept of) visual field is formed other sense-fields are formed (again, seemingly) simultaneously--we seem to hear the gull as we see it fly--actually countless cittakha.nas, visual and auditory, (as well as many others, of course) arising and subsiding WITHIN each field and interspersed, I think, to make up the picture and the sound (in retrospect). What do you think? mike 25014 From: Date: Fri Sep 5, 2003 5:11pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Finally !!! Hi Icaro, I don't speak German but would be interested in any differences between the German Vism. and the English one. Is the translator Nyanatiloka? Larry Icaro: "Noble Fellows of this Distinct Company of Pali and Dhamma Students! After unspeakable efforts of searching and mining datum of any sorts, I finally discovered a gold mine of dhamma texts!!! http://www.palikanon.com At last,at this website I will download a full copy of the Visuddhimagga and of the Abhidhamma Sangaha in German!!!! I will shake my Deutsche Spreche maker and, wipping off the sweat of my brows, I will be able to follow the discussions of the Vism XIV !!!!!! To be or not to be, that´s the questiom!!!!" 25015 From: Date: Fri Sep 5, 2003 1:22pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:Vism XIV, 7 (4) Hi, Toby - Very good! I like what you have to say here. One question: What about thoughts? Where do they fit in? With metta, Howard In a message dated 9/5/03 4:42:44 PM Eastern Daylight Time, torloff87048@y... writes: > > Dear Howard, Larry and Sarah, > > I'd like to add my understanding of concepts to what's already been said. > Nothing new here, just a different emphasis and way of expressing it. > Comments welcome. > > Concepts do not exist in any form. They are a conventional reality. To see > why this is so, consider a related topic: Words. Words do not exist, > either. Why not? Let's apprehend what is happening here and now and see that > words as independent realities having their own nature are nowhere to be found. > There are conditions giving rise to verbal intimation on my part. This is > rupa born of citta. No words there, just rupa. Through many processes of the > four elements, this rupa eventually gives rise to rupa that is manifested as > color before your eyes. Your eye-contact with that color gives rise to > various cittas and cetasikas. The objects of those cittas are always one of > citta, cetasika, rupa or Nibbana. Some of these objects are previous cetasikas of > perception, conditioned by previous experiences such as with verbal > intimation, citta and cetasika. Speaking conventionally, we say that these objects > are "marked by perception" and we might imagine that a word is such a mark. > But this is a deceptive model. What we are really doing is perceiving a > previous perception. The previous perception is the mark we are perceiving. No > words there, either. Now the perception of such an object, along with > feelings, volition, etc., may ultimately give rise to a speech volition and verbal > intimation (rupa) on your part. The form of this rupa as speech or writing > that others can interpret is conditioned from past experience as well. And so > it goes on and on. There are no words anywhere in this process. There is > only rupa, citta, cetasika and (if we are fortunate) Nibbana. > > The purpose of the verbal intimation that gave rise to the Abhidhamma and > other such books (i.e. rupa) is to assist people in the development of insight > and liberation. When conditions are right, this rupa can become an object of > citta and lead towards purification. Towards this end, it might not be > helpful for such a book to discuss the unreality of words and concepts. It's > puzzling, to say the last, to read a sentence, conventionally regarded as being > made up of words, that declares words do not exist. It's more helpful to > speak of the conventional reality of words and concepts and to classify them in > such a way that confusion does not arise. This is why the Abhidhamma speaks > of concepts as objects of citta. But this is only verbal intimation giving > rise to a particular manifestation of rupa in the form of the Abhidhamma. > There are no words or concepts anywhere to be found. > > Just my 2 cents... > > Toby > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] 25016 From: Date: Fri Sep 5, 2003 5:33pm Subject: Re: [dsg] The workings of sanna Rob: "Comments?" Hi Rob, I see you have been reading Mathieu Boisvert. I'm understanding the "10 sa~n~naa" as 10 signs. In Vism. it says sa~n~naa cannot penetrate the three general characteristics so I think this means imagining impermanence and understanding impermanence are different. A possible controversy may arise: concentration is the proximate cause of understanding, "strong imagination" (thirasa~n~naa) is the proximate case of sati. So the proximate cause of pa~n~naa is a concept (mental image). Explain that! Larry 25017 From: Date: Fri Sep 5, 2003 5:54pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:Vism XIV, 7 (4) Howard: "Hi, Toby - Very good! I like what you have to say here. One question: What about thoughts? Where do they fit in?" Hi Toby, Ditto for me. The thoughts running through your head as you read this email are certainly ungraspable but they have a realty as vitakka-vicaara. So the question is what is the difference between a "thought-conception" (vitakka) and a concept? How can there be a nonexistent object of consciousness? Perhaps a better question is in what sense is a concept nonexistent? Larry 25018 From: Date: Fri Sep 5, 2003 6:01pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism. XIV, 11 the Khandhas Hi Nina, Wonderful! Looking forward to it. You are right. I don't have these books. Larry Nina: "P.s. Larry, I notice that in The Vis there is, in the next paras, reference to the Vibhanga too, and you may not have the Vibhanga, Book of Analysis? Then I shall help, adding a note." 25019 From: Date: Fri Sep 5, 2003 2:11pm Subject: Re: [dsg] The workings of sanna Hi, Rob - In a message dated 9/5/03 6:45:25 PM Eastern Daylight Time, rob.moult@j... writes: > > Hi Larry, Howard and others, > > I have been watching your "thinking" thread and wanted to contribute > my understanding regarding the workings of sanna. > > ================================= Wow! No comments yet - too much to digest! ;-) Thank you for this. I will examine it carefully. Just on 1st glance, though, the question occurred to me as what exactly the nature is of the image-block concepts that are mind created. They are what sort of cetasikas? (If my question just makes no sense, it is because I still need to properly go over what you wrote. So far I've just scanned it.) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] 25020 From: icarofranca Date: Fri Sep 5, 2003 6:35pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Finally !!! Dear Larry: Larry:" I don't speak German" -------------------------------------------------------------- Not me, Larry...but this is a good opportunity to begin to!!!!!!!!!! Run, Larry! Run !!! ------------------------------------------------------------- Larry:"but would be interested in any differences between > the German Vism. and the English one. Is the translator Nyanatiloka?" ------------------------------------------------------------ Yep! Shri Nyanatiloka. The first advantage of the german´s Vism is the proper order of paragraphs and chapters. The Tipitaka.org´s version,despite to be complete in Pali, at first glance is not so easy to follow up! It´s somewhat a little laziness of mine, but Buddhaghosa´s pali is very intrincate...the German version seems to me more easy to handle with!!!! Mettaya, Ícaro > 25021 From: icarofranca Date: Fri Sep 5, 2003 6:48pm Subject: Re: Pali language. Dear Eddie Lou Eddie Lou:" Just curious, it seems like you are quite versed with > Pali vocabulary." ------------------------------------------------------------------- My resources on pali are very limited, but I´ve got now all pali fonts, Pali Dictionaries and the grammars loke Duroseille´s I need to deal with aptly. ------------------------------------------------------------------- Eddie Lou:" Did you grow up with or learn later?" ----------------------------------------------------------------- I´ve learned pali at pieces, sometimes by chance, without a definite method. There´s a lot of work to be done at this field yet! ------------------------------------------------------------------ Eddie Lou: "I may have missed the first part when you intro > yourself. > Anyone is welcome to join in to tell how (s)he pick > up Pali. > I myself been born in Myanmar, know some because > Burmese language has adopted a lot of Pali since > ancient time. Thx." ------------------------------------------------------------------ You may check in my past messages at this vibrant dsg of ours about my first introduction here! Myanmar is doing an excellent work on divulgate the complete pali Tipitaka to all people interested on it. The issues posted online are of a very good quality and with good natural fonts to all pali reader! Keep boostin´ fella! Your country is at the vanguard of dhamma divulgation! mettaya, Ícaro 25022 From: Date: Fri Sep 5, 2003 6:52pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Finally !!! Icaro: "Dear Larry: Larry:" I don't speak German" ---------------------------------------------- Not me, Larry...but this is a good opportunity to begin to!!!!!!!!!! Run, Larry! Run !!!" Hi Icaro, Too old Icaro, too old. My brains get stuck. If you explain the German words occasionally I think that would add another dimension. Plus I have a lot of respect for Ven. Nyanatiloka. Larry 25023 From: Robert Epstein Date: Fri Sep 5, 2003 9:29pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism. XIV, 11 Thank you for posting this, Larry. Nyanatiloka's discussion of the kandhas makes clear [assuming he speaks correctly for the Buddha] that the human realm in all its levels of experience are meant to be seen as unreal. To speak of the five kandhas as "empty, unreal and unsubstantial" seems to present a challenging view to those who might argue that the reality of the moment at least is "real," eg, that there is at least a real 'something' that exists in the moment, although we usually obscure it through conceptualization. This definition of the kandhas seems to present a vision in which there is no substantive reality, and it leaves the realm of reality, it seems, to a kind of self-enclosed moment in which consciousness creates a moment of experience within itself, rather than makes true contact with an outside object. It is a totally fleeting world of illusion that is presented here. I wonder if you would agree that there really is no place of substantiality of any kind left in this vision, and one wonders how the act of consciousness even manages to take place. I wonder if anyone can read this and think that there is still an objective world of objects presumed to exist beyond the senses and consciousness in this vision of Buddhism? Best, Robert Ep. ================================ --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@w... wrote: > Hi all, > > Here is part of Nyanatiloka's definition of "khandha": [snip] > Further in S. XXII, 95: "Suppose that a man who is not blind were to > behold the many bubbles on the Ganges as they are driving along; and he > should watch them and carefully examine them. After carefully examining > them, however, they will appear to him empty, unreal and unsubstantial. > In exactly the same way does the monk behold all the corporeal phenomena > ... feelings ... perceptions ... mental formations ... states of > consciousness, whether they be of the past, present or future ... far or > near. And he watches them and examines them carefully; and after > carefully examining them, they appear to him empty, unreal and > unsubstantial." > > The 5 groups are compared, respectively, to a lump of froth, a bubble, a > mirage, a coreless plantain stem, and a conjuring trick (S. XXII, 95). > > http://www.saigon.com/~anson/ebud/bud-dict/dic_idx.htm 25024 From: Date: Fri Sep 5, 2003 10:32pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism. XIV, 11 Robert Epstein: "It is a totally fleeting world of illusion that is presented here. I wonder if you would agree that there really is no place of substantiality of any kind left in this vision, and one wonders how the act of consciousness even manages to take place." Hi Robert, I agree; well said. The defining of mentality and materiality is a tricky business. On the one hand we are not talking about "things" but on the other hand we are not talking about nothing at all. Experience is ungraspable and ultimately unsatisfying, but first of all it is not one but two: mentality and materiality. Before that we have to acknowledge the difference between thinking about experience and direct experience. Direct experience is actually quite common but because it is so impermanent we try to capture it with thoughts. It is the very elusiveness of experience that we need to see first hand. We really need to see just how real reality really is. Larry 25025 From: Date: Fri Sep 5, 2003 10:46pm Subject: Vism. XIV, 12 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) ch. XIV [How many kinds of understanding are there?] 12. 5. In the fourth dyad, understanding belonging to two of the kinds of sense-sphere profitable consciousness, and belonging to sixteen (5) of the kinds of path consciousness with four of the jhanas in the fivefold method, is "accompanied by joy". Understanding belonging to two of the kinds of sense-sphere profitable consciousness, and belonging to (the remaining) four kinds of path consciousness with the fifth jhana is "accompanied by equanimity". So it is of two kinds as accompanied by joy or by equanimity. (5.) 'I.e. the four paths with the first jhana and those with the second, third, and fourth, out of the five' (Pm. 434). 25026 From: Eddie Lou Date: Fri Sep 5, 2003 10:47pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Pali language. Dear Icaro, Thanks Icaro. On your mention of Myanmar, I just went there on websites for some nostalgic experience. I really miss Myanmar, Buddhism, the people, the land, the culture, etc, etc. Thx, again. Metta, Eddie. 25027 From: Eddie Lou Date: Fri Sep 5, 2003 10:56pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Search for 'Cause of Rebirth Samsara'- A triviality. Dear Robert, rjkjp1 wrote: > --- Dear Eddie, > The credit all goes to you. It shows that clinging > to view is weak. I think this understanding is part of sacca-nana the first round of development of wisdom. > Robertk Thx for the motivation, I will have to strive more and harder. Metta, Eddie Lou. 25028 From: Date: Fri Sep 5, 2003 11:04pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism. XIV, 12 Hi all, This looks like a difficult paragraph to expain, so maybe several people could have a go at it. The goal is to be lucid, thorough, and brief. Use your own words but don't worry about repeating what someone else said. Repeating is good. How about Robert K., Mike, Rob, Suan and anyone else who wants to jump in. Larry --------------------- 12. 5. In the fourth dyad, understanding belonging to two of the kinds of sense-sphere profitable consciousness, and belonging to sixteen (5) of the kinds of path consciousness with four of the jhanas in the fivefold method, is "accompanied by joy". Understanding belonging to two of the kinds of sense-sphere profitable consciousness, and belonging to (the remaining) four kinds of path consciousness with the fifth jhana is "accompanied by equanimity". So it is of two kinds as accompanied by joy or by equanimity. (5.) 'I.e. the four paths with the first jhana and those with the second, third, and fourth, out of the five' (Pm. 434). 25029 From: torloff87048 Date: Fri Sep 5, 2003 11:38pm Subject: [dsg] Re:Vism XIV, 7 (4) Hi Howard and Larry, H:> Very good! I like what you have to say here. One question: What about > thoughts? Where do they fit in? > Here's my understanding of thoughts on the fundamental level that we are discussing. They key, as many are pointing out, is the activity of the cetasika perception (sanna). When thought is taking place what is happening is that sanna of one citta is conditioning the next arising citta and cetasikas and then perceiving them as objects of the citta after that. Other cetasikas, like feeling, wrong view, etc., are also conditioning the next citta and cetasikas, but sanna has the following unique property: When a citta or cetasika conditioned by a previous sanna becomes the object of a new citta, sanna is able to recognize its own conditioning of the citta or cetasika. It is as if sanna can say about its conditioning effects: "I know that! I did it!" This is what provides continuity of thought processes. But the objects of cittas during thought are always cittas or cetasikas (or Nibbana on a really good day). The presence of vitakka and/or vicarra simply gets the sanna ball rolling and keeps it rolling. The reason you cannot pin it down any further than this is because you can't say which cetasikas conditioned by sanna will become the objects of subsequent cittas. That's why we speak of sanna "marking objects." The objects are only citta or cetasikas and the mark is only the fact of having been conditioned by a previous sanna. On a fundamental level, there are no objects besides cittas and cetasikas involved in such processes. The sense in which concepts don't exist is that they are not found anywhere. Only citta and cetasika conditioned by sanna. For example, suppose a citta arises with a cetasika of wrong view of identity present. Suppose one vaguely senses the presence of the view and endeavors to articulate it. This could go in a wholesome direction, if for example one seeks to investigate the view with the knowledge that it is false. Or it could go in an unwholesome direction, if for example one simply subscribes to the view and asserts it as truth. In either case, what brings the view from being vaguely sensed to being articulated is the activity of sanna conditioning the cetasika of wrong view in one citta and perceiving it as an object in the next. (I'm oversimplifying here to express my point. No doubt there are other cetasikas also being conditioned and perceived. For example, sometimes the act of bringing a vague sense of a view to the point of being articulated involves perception of feelings associated with that view. That's a sequence of many cittas with sanna conditioning vedana in one citta and perceiving it as object in another. And of course, there's a massive amount of sanna-conditioning from birth onward that goes into the arising of verbal intimation in adulthood.) The reason we don't speak of feeling or other cetasikas as marking objects in the same way as sanna, even though they do condition them, is because such conditioning is not normally observed the way it is with sanna. Observing the way feelings, for example, condition citta and cetasika is a key part of mindfulness. But sanna operates the way it does regardless of one's level of insight. Sanna's perception of itself is not insight into dependent arising or any of the three characteristics. It's a purely sanna-constructed reality. If it's accompanied by wisdom (panna) then good things happen, if by delusion (moha), then they don't. Toby 25030 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sat Sep 6, 2003 2:45am Subject: [dsg] Re: Bahiya5 - *Howard&Christine* - ordinary people? Hello Howard and all, Thanks for this Howard. Apart from being affected by an emotional reaction to a horrific situation, I was confused by thinking that whatever happens to a person is to be viewed as entirely the consequence of their own previous actions, single or accumulated. Believing that people only reap what they sow seemed to be a type of judgmentalism, to lead to indifference towards the plight of others, to be a type of conceit, and even to induce a slightly malicious feeling of 'you'll get yours one day, mate' towards others doing wrong. Your explanation of what happens to us as being only partly attributable to any past actions seems sensible. It leaves responsibility with the perpetrator, rather than just blaming the victims. metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > I suspect that kamma and its effects form an *extraordinarily* complex > causal web, and that most popular understandings of it are wildly primitive > compared to the reality. One thing I think may be good to keep in mind is that > kamma (one's "own" kamma) is but one if several niyama, or cosmic principles > active in human affairs. While all sense experience that comes to us is kamma > vipaka in the sense that at least *some* previous intention/intentional action > constituted conditions for its arising, sometimes that may be the smallest > part. When A attacks B, the primary condition for what B experiences is most > typically the akusula kamma of A far more than the akusala vipaka of B. If B's > experience were entirely or largely due to B's own vipaka, then A would be the > innocent vehicle for the working out of B's kamma, a rather perverse notion, as > I see it. So called innocent victims, are, I really do believe, innocent for > the most part. There is no way for us to sift out how much of what ill comes to > us is "kammic compensation" and how much is being the innocent recipient of > evil actions of others, but I think that in this area it is reasonably safe to > *primarily* rely on common sense. > > With metta, > Howard > 25031 From: Date: Sat Sep 6, 2003 1:39am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism. XIV, 11 Hi, Rob - In a message dated 9/6/03 12:31:14 AM Eastern Daylight Time, epsteinrob@Y... writes: > Thank you for posting this, Larry. > > Nyanatiloka's discussion of the kandhas makes clear [assuming he > speaks correctly for the Buddha] that the human realm in all its > levels of experience are meant to be seen as unreal. To speak of the > five kandhas as "empty, unreal and unsubstantial" seems to present a > challenging view to those who might argue that the reality of the > moment at least is "real," eg, that there is at least a real > 'something' that exists in the moment, although we usually obscure it > through conceptualization. > > This definition of the kandhas seems to present a vision in which > there is no substantive reality, and it leaves the realm of reality, > it seems, to a kind of self-enclosed moment in which consciousness > creates a moment of experience within itself, rather than makes true > contact with an outside object. > > It is a totally fleeting world of illusion that is presented here. I > wonder if you would agree that there really is no place of > substantiality of any kind left in this vision, and one wonders how > the act of consciousness even manages to take place. > > I wonder if anyone can read this and think that there is still an > objective world of objects presumed to exist beyond the senses and > consciousness in this vision of Buddhism? > > Best, > Robert Ep. > > ================================ > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@w... wrote: > >Hi all, > > > >Here is part of Nyanatiloka's definition of "khandha": > > [snip] > > >Further in S. XXII, 95: "Suppose that a man who is not blind were to > >behold the many bubbles on the Ganges as they are driving along; and he > >should watch them and carefully examine them. After carefully examining > >them, however, they will appear to him empty, unreal and unsubstantial. > >In exactly the same way does the monk behold all the corporeal phenomena > >... feelings ... perceptions ... mental formations ... states of > >consciousness, whether they be of the past, present or future ... far or > >near. And he watches them and examines them carefully; and after > >carefully examining them, they appear to him empty, unreal and > >unsubstantial." > > > >The 5 groups are compared, respectively, to a lump of froth, a bubble, a > >mirage, a coreless plantain stem, and a conjuring trick (S. XXII, 95). > > > >http://www.saigon.com/~anson/ebud/bud-dict/dic_idx.htm > ================================== I basically agree with you on this, Rob, but with a slight hedge/disclaimer. Much depends on what one means by "real". I see the Buddha as having, indeed, taught that conventional objects such as trees and chariots have only conventional existence, and that these ultimately are fictions. [I don't think that *thoughts* of such are fictions - they are mental constructs that are experienced, but that is another story, and another debate.] I also see him as having taught that the immediate elements of experience, the (paramattha) dhammas which are direct objects of experience, unmediated by mental construction, are fleeting, insubstantial, impersonal, coreless, conditioned and dependent experiential events/phenomena, and hence not separate and not self-existent entities. But, and here is the hedge/disclaimer, this last does not make these phenomena fully nonexistent. While they may not be "outside objects" - and I, as a radical phenomenalist, in fact believe, from the pragmatic, Occam's razor, perspective, that they are purely experiential phenomena without "external" status - that does not make them "unreal" in the sense of imagined and unobserved. [An aside: Whether or not there actually exist in some sense "external" somethings-or-other underlying experiential phenomena is a moot point, inasmuch as such "somethings" are never directly encountered, and are, in principle, unknowable.] The extremes of existence and nonexistence don't apply. The extremes don't apply to conventionally existent entities, because conventional existence is a shorthand for a complex of observable relationships holding among the actual elements of experience. Even less so do these extremes apply to the direct elements of experience, the various evanescent and insubstantial rupas, cittas,and cetasikas. As in the Kaccayanagotta Sutta, and as followed up upon by Nagarjuna, these phenomena-events are neither (self-)existent nor nonexistent. The two views of existence and of nonexistence (and of reality and unreality) are extremes, both defective according to the Buddha as well as Nagarjuna who, later on, worked to safeguard the Buddha's Dhamma from incursions from these extremes. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 25032 From: m. nease Date: Sat Sep 6, 2003 5:39am Subject: Hymns, etc. DSG, There was some discussion of hymn-singing and Dhamma recently and I was trying to remember this--just found it while looking for something else: Bhikkhus, there are these five dangers when Dhamma is chanted with a long, singing sound: He is pleased with himself regarding that sound, (= pride) Others are pleased regarding that sound (they have regard for it but not for Dhamma) Householders look down upon him (as music is for those who enjoy sense-pleasures) While trying for accuracy of sound his concentration is broken, (he neglects the meaning of what he is chanting) People coming after fall into views (by emulation) ("saying: Our teachers and preceptors sang it thus" [Commentary] -- a source of both pride and quarreling among later generations of Buddhists). -- Vinaya Pitaka, ii. 108 25033 From: m. nease Date: Sat Sep 6, 2003 5:50am Subject: Hymns p.s. Sorry, I neglected to credit that last quote. It was from ATI: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/wheels/wheel206/chanting.html 25034 From: Date: Sat Sep 6, 2003 2:00am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:Vism XIV, 7 (4) Hi, Toby - In a message dated 9/6/03 2:39:49 AM Eastern Daylight Time, torloff87048@y... writes: > Hi Howard and Larry, > > H:> Very good! I like what you have to say here. One question: What > about > >thoughts? Where do they fit in? > > > > Here's my understanding of thoughts on the fundamental level that we are > discussing. > > ============================ Very good, Toby! (And Rob M, as well, color-dots notwithstanding! ;-) Thoughts as sa~n~na-marked cittas and cetasikas taken as objects [along, of course, with mind-produced pictures, sounds (especially meaningful sound-sequences), feelings, and emotions] certainly do seem to be pretty much "fill the bill". With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 25035 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sat Sep 6, 2003 10:30am Subject: Re: [dsg] Egypt Diary: Pali. Hi James, op 05-09-2003 07:59 schreef buddhatrue op buddhatrue@y...: > James: Oops...I did it again! ;-) Nina: :-) ;-) 25036 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sat Sep 6, 2003 10:30am Subject: Re: [dsg] Bahiya4 - *Nina&Larry* - asavas Dear Sarah, op 05-09-2003 08:20 schreef Sarah op sarahdhhk@y...: > For it is whilst he [Bahira] still was hearing Dhamma > from the Teacher that he cleansed the precepts, established vipassana > based upon the concentration of mind thereby acquired, immediately brought > all the asavas to destruction on account of his rapid superknowledge, and > reached arahantship together with the discriminations. N: Here we read about the analytical knowledges or patisambhidas, Larry spoke about the other day. It will come up in Vis. We see that Bahira reached arahatship with the highest distinction: vipassana based on samatha and then the wisdom of the arahat accompanied by the four patisambhidas. Vipassana based on samatha and then the wisdom of the arahat accompanied by the four patisambhidas is not for everybody. And not in this day and age. Nina. 25037 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sat Sep 6, 2003 10:30am Subject: Re: [dsg] kamma and defilement. Dear Sarah and Rob M, I was happy to hear about your discussions, but since it was three hours, there surely was more?? I can elaborate somewhat on what you mentioned, but i may repeat what I wrote before. op 05-09-2003 10:49 schreef Sarah op sarahdhhk@y...: > Nina, I’m not sure if you can help further. I think Rob finds it very > limited or like a sudden cut-off to say only kamma-patha brings results > and other moments of kamma (cetana) do not even act in this way even in a > very mild form. N: I understand Rob's point. I believe we cannot pinpoint everything, but there are some indications in the Commentaries. Like in the Expositor, about the specific factors which make kamma a completed course so that it can poroduce result in the form of an unhappy rebirth. Recently I translated the Issue of Dhamma on Slandering, and quote again: We read about slandering (Atthasåliní, Book I, Part III, Ch 5 99, 100): ŒSlander¹ means calumnious speech which, by being said to another, reduces to nothing the love which that person, or the speaker bears at his own heart to a third person... The volition of one with a corrupt mind, producing the bodily and vocal effort to sow the seed of discord among others, or to endear oneself to others is termed the volition of calumnious speech. It is a smaller or greater offence, according as the virtue of the person whom he separates is smaller or greater. There are four constituent factors of this crime: (1) Other persons to be divided; (2) the purpose: Œthey will be separated,¹ or the desire to endear oneself to another: ŒI shall become dear and intimate¹; (3) the corresponding effort; (4) the communication. But when there is no rupture among others, the offence does not amount to a complete course; it does so only when there is rupture. It is then explained that the sotapanna cannot commit slandering with all factors complete so that it could produce an unhappy rebirth. S: I mentioned in another post than when I raised the topic > with K.Sujin she mentioned that this is why there are different conditions > such as upanissaya and kamma. N: I remember. There must be strong dependence condition so that kamma can produce result. It means not every kamma is strong enough to produce result. S: Also the 3 rounds. N: Yes, she said, what is the use of the three rounds of kamma, of vipaka, of kilesa, if kilesa is the same as kamma. (I just brought it up in the Pali list). I wrote: People react differently to the result they receive. Some people react with kusala citta, others with aversion, with akusala citta. The reason is that people have accumulated different inclinations, different defilements, kilesas. In the commentary it is explained that there are three cycles: the cycle of kamma, the cycle of vipaka and the cycle of kilesa. Kilesa motivates again kamma and this produces again vipaka and this conditions again kilesa, and so we go on and on. Thus the three cycles keep turning around in our lives. If each moment of akusala, and there are countless moments, would be akusala kamma, our outlook on life would be very pessimistic, we would be plagued by guilt and fear. Could we ever laugh again? How stressful our life would be. To use a Howardian expression, I do not buy this. Also Rob K has explained very clearly about the three cycles. Now about kusala: A. Sujin explained that usually kusala citta is kusala kamma, but, when the kusala intention is very weak it is not kamma which can produce a result. For example, one thinks of giving but one does not come to the deed of generosity, because the kusala is too weak. I read Christine's post about the father killing his family. Christine, I understand that you must be shocked because of this drama that happened rather nearby. We should not think in terms of those children got what they deserved. Rather: the cycle of life is dukkha, and nobody can escape dukkha. Even the Buddha could not change kamma and vipaka and the cycle of birth and death. We are all in it. Recently I requoted about the fixedness of natural law, maybe you read it on Pali list: I wrote (in Meanings of dhamma, no 7) about the Fixedness of Law (Dhamma) regarding all things, also quoting from Buddhist Dict by Ven. Nyanatiloka. Conditions take their course, no matter whether there is an appearance or non-appearance of a Tathaagata.> The Buddha taught the way out of dukkha. But he cannot make anybody accept his teachings or have confidence in it. When thinking of the cycle and of dukkha it helps me to accept kamma and vipaka. Nina. Nina. 25038 From: Date: Sat Sep 6, 2003 8:37am Subject: Re: [dsg] kamma and defilement. Hi, Nina - In a message dated 9/6/03 1:32:56 PM Eastern Daylight Time, nilo@e... writes: > In the commentary it is explained that there are three cycles: the > cycle of kamma, the cycle of vipaka and the cycle of kilesa. Kilesa > motivates again kamma and this produces again vipaka and this conditions > again kilesa, and so we go on and on. Thus the three cycles keep turning > around in our lives. > If each moment of akusala, and there are countless moments, would be akusala > kamma, our outlook on life would be very pessimistic, we would be plagued by > guilt and fear. Could we ever laugh again? How stressful our life would be. > To use a Howardian expression, I do not buy this. > Also Rob K has explained very clearly about the three cycles. > ========================= I find this matter of a repeating triple of cycle-of-kamma -> cycle-of-vipaka -> cycle-of-kilesa extremely interesting. It seems to be a neat way of describing samsara, and a way that I haven't seen before. I would like to read a bit more about this. Could you give me any references, including pointers to Rob K's exposition and to places it might be found in the Vism or the CMA? With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 25039 From: robmoult Date: Sat Sep 6, 2003 1:49pm Subject: Re: The workings of sanna Hi Rob K, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" > wrote: > > > > The cittas in an eye-door citta process have "visible object" > (rupa) > > as their object. A "visible object" is not a flower (flower is a > > concept). A visible object is a dot, a dot of colour. > +++++++ > Do you have a reference for this. It is different from my > understanding of rupayatanna. I acknowledge that there is another school of thought that uses the analogy of a photograph (an entire scene) coming into focus. I picked the "dot" analogy for two reasons: - It makes more sense to me - Shwe Zan Aung's Introductory Essay to the PTS Abhidhammattha- sangaha (1910) which, I believe is supported by Ledi Sayadaw. Here is the relevant portion of the essay: SZA: Each process is followed, with a brief moment or two of the subconscious continuum intervening, by the process called 'grasping the past' (atitaggahana process), in which there is necessarily a depicting to the imagination of the past object has just perceived, the images alone of the different parts of the rose being present in the mind. These two processes may alternate with each other several hundred thousand times before the synthetic process takes place. The alternation of these two processes may be compared to that of makes and breaks in the connection of an electric dynamo (Ledi Sayadaw cites the ancient and well-known simile of the circle of fire caused by a moving point, to show the persistency of an image). SZA then proceeds to describe the synthesis process (samudaynggahana or samuhaggahana) which is described as grasping of what 'rises up together' or of a 'collective whole'. Metta, Rob M :-) 25040 From: robmoult Date: Sat Sep 6, 2003 2:15pm Subject: Re: [dsg] The workings of sanna Hi Mike, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "m. nease" wrote: > This is pretty much as I see it too (no pun intended). Seems to me, though, > that those processes are continually intersperesed with other sense- and > mind-door processes so that, seemingly, as the (concept of) visual field is > formed other sense-fields are formed (again, seemingly) simultaneously--we > seem to hear the gull as we see it fly--actually countless cittakha.nas, > visual and auditory, (as well as many others, of course) arising and > subsiding WITHIN each field and interspersed, I think, to make up the > picture and the sound (in retrospect). What do you think? Interesting question. As there are billions of these processes in a microsecond, it does *seem* that everything happens simultaneously. What feels right to me is that a stream at a particular door proceeds to a certain level before information from another dooorway is accepted. I suspect that this is linked to the presence of a registration citta. If a citta process does not end with a registration citta, then there is nothing "internal" for the next mind-door citta process to connect to and so a new piece of sense data is processed. If a citta process does end with a registration citta, then the subsequent citta process will automatically take the same object as the previous citta process. This is my speculation. Comments? Metta, Rob M :-) 25041 From: robmoult Date: Sat Sep 6, 2003 3:02pm Subject: Re: [dsg] The workings of sanna Hi Larry, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@w... wrote: > I see you have been reading Mathieu Boisvert. I'm understanding the "10 > sa~n~naa" as 10 signs. === Of course, Mathieu Boisvert is a fellow Canadian! I picked up his book in Colombo a couple of years ago, but took some time to get around to reading it. === > In Vism. it says sa~n~naa cannot penetrate the > three general characteristics so I think this means imagining > impermanence and understanding impermanence are different. === Sanna is superficial, it takes panna to penetrate the three general characteristics. You are quite correct that imagining impermanence and understanding impermanence are quite different. Imagining is based on the mind (intellectual) whereas understanding is based on experience. === > > A possible controversy may arise: concentration is the proximate cause > of understanding, "strong imagination" (thirasa~n~naa) is the proximate > case of sati. So the proximate cause of pa~n~naa is a concept (mental > image). Explain that! === I am confused, Larry. The proximate cause of panna is wise attention (yoniso manisakara). Please rephrase the question. Metta, Rob M :-) 25042 From: robmoult Date: Sat Sep 6, 2003 3:18pm Subject: Re: [dsg] The workings of sanna Hi Howard, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Just on 1st glance, though, the question occurred to > me as what exactly the nature is of the image-block concepts that are mind > created. They are what sort of cetasikas? The objects of sense-door citta processes are visible object, audible object, etc. The first mind-door citta process after a sense- door citta process takes the same object as the previous sense-door citta process. After that, it is concepts all the way. Concepts can range in complexity from very simple (image-blocks) to very complex. The problem is that, outside of deep meditation, we are not aware of concepts until they reach the naming stage, at which point they are already quite complex. Hope this helps and look forward to your comments. Metta, Rob M :-) 25043 From: connie Date: Sat Sep 6, 2003 4:13pm Subject: Re: dsgn, rupa and Pali accents Dear Nina, Would you consider putting your funny sign list in the files section of the group? I, for one, would really appreciate a copy and imagine that Sarah and a few others couldn't resist peeking at it. Thank you, connie 25044 From: Date: Sat Sep 6, 2003 5:48pm Subject: Re: [dsg] The workings of sanna Rob: "I am confused, Larry. The proximate cause of panna is wise attention (yoniso manisakara). Please rephrase the question." Larry: aHa! I see you have not been keeping up with the Visuddhimagga thread. See Vism. XIV, 7: "its [pa~n~naa) proximate cause is concentration." See CMA for proximate cause of sati is thirasa~n~na; translated there as "strong perception". I see them pointing to the same thing, i.e., sa~n~naa's role in identifying by means of a sign. I translated thirasa~n~naa as "strong imagination" but it might be better to say distinct identity. In some ways this fits in well with the intention behind the concept and reality distinction insofar as the idea is to attend to experience rather than discursive thinking. But in other ways it could be construed as problematic because identity is concept; so concept is the proximate cause of understanding (pa~n~naa). Where does that leave the distinction between concept and reality? I see that CMA says the proximate cause of pa~n~naa is wise attention. What does "wise" mean, "sati"? Larry 25045 From: norakat147 Date: Sat Sep 6, 2003 7:52pm Subject: Demystifying/understanding nama and rupa Hi Nina (and anyone interested to comment), Nina: Very important: indispensable for insight. You have to know > what nama is and > what rupa, and be able to distinguish their different characteristics. A > conditio sine qua non for the further development of insight. It is the > first stage of tender insight. ... > We need courage and patience to "define" nama and rupa. We cannot > expect a quick result. (would appreciate any response/comments to questions posed in the following): According to the PTS dictionary: nama in its most primitive form is 'name'; likewise rupa is defined as 'form'; thus name and form. However in other interpretations/definitions and commentary, I see different meanings to define nama and rupa such as: (from access to insight): -nama: Mental phenomena. This term refers to the mental components of the five khandhas... -rupa: Body; physical phenomenon; sense datum. How is it that 'name' has become - mental phenomena ? How is it that 'form' has become - physical phenomena ? How is it that these definitions were implied? Am I understandly/defining correctly that (?): rupa is: objectively existing unconscious physical matter as it truly exists (with or without our conciousness/perception of it). (?) nama is: our mental representation/memory/interpretation/symbol/idea of the percieved rupa through the senses. (???) (my latter definitions, of course, is based on my current assupmtion of how things exist) Corrections / comments will be greatly appreciated. peace and metta, nori 25046 From: norakat147 Date: Sat Sep 6, 2003 9:05pm Subject: Re: Bahiya7 - *Nori* - simple living (reply for Sarah) Hi Sarah, Thanks again for your thoughtful replies. Sarah wrote: ..."but I don't find your qus easy to answer simply." Sorry for the non-specific, vague, open questions. I was just seeking whatever (and any) insights you had to offer - you, having been in Sri Lanka first hand as a Buddhist practitioner. ... again thank you. Sarah wrote: "Pls let us know more about why you consider such a lifestyle as more `conducive to ending of dukkha'." I forgot where I read it; I think it was confucious or Lao-tzu; There was a passage I read which the gist of was something like: you have to be a fool to live somewhere (in a country) where 'the way' does not prevail. (really bad paraphrase, I know.) Of course, to live somewhere means also to be engulfed in the collective conciousness of that region. The dominant beliefs and views of a nation/country/area creates its culture (i.e. its behavior, its way of life), its laws, its feelings/emotions (toward things), its conversations, its media, etc. Thoughts beget like thoughts. It is difficult and painful (not to mention lonely) to maintain individuality somewhere, especially if you are against the grain. It is also inevitable that maintaining constant contact/interaction with a culture will result in some sort of influence. Just as association with the unbeloved is dukkha, so it is with an unbeloved culture and nation (no offense to anyone). I imagined that a Theravada Buddhist dominated country would also form/influence its culture (i.e. its behavior, its way of life) and laws based on its (Theravada Buddhist) views to a great degree, which is more akin to me. I thought that being in the presence of such an influenced culture/peoples would be more conducive to ending dukkha, since the dhamma is contained within it - the prevalent culture (i.e. its behavior, its way of life). If this were the case, you would not have to constantly swim against the current. If this were the case maybe you can learn dhamma just by observing the behavior of others and how they live; simply by being in their presence. The greatest prize being that association with them (in- itself) would not be dukkha. Sincerely, nori > --- Sarah wrote: > Hi Nori, > > > What do you think life would be like dwelling in a forest in Sri > > > Lanka (or any other thera-buddhist dominated country), living off ...snip 25047 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Sep 6, 2003 9:45pm Subject: Re: Elusive Mind-Door Objects & Samatha Howard Thanks for coming in here with your usual well-developed comments. I'm pleased to see that we have more in common than not ;-)). For instance, I think we are in agreement that-- - the development of the path is the development of insight/wisdom into the true nature of dhammas, the moment-to-moment phenomena that are the fundamental building blocks of the present moment - this insight/wisdom disperses the ignorance and wrong view that perceives a self existing in a world of people and things. - if the appropriate conditions are in place, this insight/wisdom can arise on ordinary occasions in the course of ordinary life - those conditions include a correct intellectual understanding of dhammas and insight, as set out in the teachings. - for a given individual, the development of insight/wisdom is strongly dependent on the extent to which insight/wisdom has been developed in the past (this is the 'we must start from where we are' factor that you have mentioned on occasion). No argument between us so far, I think ;-)) We may however have some differences as to what exactly is happening at moments of the development of insight. You say-- "... to attempt see, under ordinary circumstances, what *actually* happens moment after moment in one's mindstream is like trying to see the exact appearance of the bumps and pebbles in the roadway as one hurtles down the highway on a moonless, sky-clouded, fog-filled night." I do not see insight as being able to see on a moment-to-moment basis the happenings in one's mindstream, even for one who has attained the final goal let alone at relatively less advanced levels. I believe that such a degree of understanding is the province of a Buddha or the great disciples alone. [In fact, according to the texts, even the the fact of the momentary nature of dhammas does not become apparent *to direct awareness* until an advanced stage -- I would suggest that our perception of the momentary nature of dhammas is in truth an inference drawn from an observation of the fact of changes occurring over a span of mind moments, not because of developed awareness at a moment-to-moment level. But I digress.] What I am saying is that although fundamental phenomena are to be known individually, this does not mean they have to be or can be known in units of a single moment. For example, the dhamma that is visible-object can be known as the object that is being experienced through the eye-door, and as different from the consciousness by which the object is being perceived, without there being the perception of a *mere single moment* of visible-object. The perception occurs over a span of moments. At such moments there is a glimmer of light through the 'cloudiness and murkiness' you mention. Every such glimmer, no matter how weak or rare in occurrence, is so valuable, since it accumulates and becomes a condition (by natural decisive support condition) for another such occurrence in the future. Just as importantly, when visible-object is seen as visible-object and different in nature from the seeing consciousness by which it is being experienced, there is right then and there a breaking down of the 'reification' of a personal self and external objects, without there being any 'attempt' to do so. The necessary effort is inherent in the mind-moment. And also, at those very moments no hindrances arise to cloud the view. The hindrances are not only being suppressed, they are actually being (ever so slightly) eroded. This is what distinguishes the force and effect of a moment of satipatthana/vipassana, no matter how weak or brief, from the force and effect of a moment of samatha even of the level of jhana. Jon --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Jon (and Nina & Icaro) - ... In fact, I would say, though you may well disagree, that without a long history of cultivation and without setting up specific helpful conditions, the task is near impossible. This is so, because to attempt see, under ordinary circumstances, what *actually* happens moment after moment in one's mindstream is like trying to see the exact appearance of the bumps and pebbles in the roadway as one hurtles down the highway on a moonless, sky-clouded, fog-filled night. Our minds are mired in reification of personal self and of "external objects", and in the grasping after and pushing away of these fictions - so much so that we don't even know what we are looking at. This, I think, is where the jhanas can play a beneficial role with regard to the arising of mindfulness, clear comprehension, and wisdom. ... With metta, Howard 25048 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Sep 6, 2003 9:54pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:Vism XIV, 7 (4) - correction... Rob Ep Delighted to see you back, if only for a brief spell. Please excuse my delay in coming in on this post of yours (nothing has changed during your absence!). --- Robert Epstein wrote: > Hi Sarah! ... Rob: I appreciate your admonition to check in to the current reality and see what is really experienced. While we can't reference the keyboard to each other, or maybe even to ourselves, without using the mental construct "keyboard," we can look at that which we call keyboard and see the endless aspects and configurations which really do not have any name or any substantial existence outside of the consciousness with which they arise. And then perhaps when we say "keyboard" the next time we will maintain the understanding that this is just a convention, as you say, and not a reality. Jon: One needs to consider what would be 'checking in to the current reality' in terms of the teachings on satipatthana/vipassana. To my reading, looking at something (e.g., that which we call keyboard) and seeing the endless aspects and configurations which really do not have any name or any substantial existence etc, would be a form of thinking about a concept (the concept being that which we call keyboard). Indeed, any mental activity that takes as its starting point a conventional object can only be a kind of thinking with concept as object, and not the direct experience of a current reality. (This is not to suggest that such thinking is necessarily 'wrong' in any sense, just to point out the difference that we need to keep in mind here.) In any event, while one is deconstructing the keyboard there are countless other objects being conceptualised about through the various doorways. One cannot consciously reflect on these other objects at the same time. Do you think that conclusions reached regarding the keyboard would have any carry-over to them? [Looks like we are still going to find lots to talk about. Like I said, no changes ;-))]. Jon 25049 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Sep 6, 2003 10:00pm Subject: Re: [dsg] accumulations. Mike Just as a matter of interest, by coincidence, I came across an answer to my own question below last night when listening to the talks/discussion held at the Thai Parliament. According to K. Suphee, just as 'anusaya' is used to denote latent unwholesome tendencies that have been accumulated, the term 'aasaya' is used to denote wholesome tendencies that have been accumulated (with 'upanissaya' and 'accaasaya' also used in the texts). PED says for aasaya: "inclination, intention, will, hope; often combined and compared with 'anusaya'". Although both come from the same root 'si' meaning to lie (I think), there is a crucial difference in the manner of lying it seems. The Thai translation for 'anusaya' is 'norn nueng', but I'm not sure of the meaning carried by 'nueng' (hidden, perhaps?). Kom or Nina? Jon --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Mike ... > These are simply the latent tendencies that make a person act and > react, think or feel etc. as he/she does, and account for an > individual's personality and nature, likes and dislikes etc. I do > not know of any single Pali term carrying this meaning, but there > probably is one (any Pali experts reading this?). ... 25050 From: rjkjp1 Date: Sat Sep 6, 2003 10:19pm Subject: visible object "robmoult" wrote::I acknowledge that there is another school of thought that uses the > analogy of a photograph (an entire scene) coming into focus. > _________ Dear RobM, This is just thinking about vanayatana. Each moment of seing is either kusala vipaka or akusala vipaka (good result or bad result). It may seem that when there is seeing that we are seeing everything within range of the eyes. However if we are looking at for instance seeing a truly lovely Buddha image but near the image is a piece of dirty rubbish(or mangy dog): again the seeing consciousness has different objects rapidly alternating but it is happening so fast that it might seem as though we are seeing the whole. > ___________ > robmoult" wrote:-A visible object is a dot, a dot of colour. > > +++++++ +++++++++++++ This is another idea. But where is the evidence in the texts. Do you mean that each time there is seeing only dots are seens? How big are th dots, are they one kalapa- but that is impossible because a kalapa is invisible. ore a large group of kalapas? Is there a set size? At times the visible object is very small, maybe seeing the mole on someone face , at times it can take in a scene , looking at a mountain. This can occur so fast that one might not evn no that seeing had taken place. But no set size that it can only be dots. That is why when there is vipassana nana what is seen is exactly like now except that there is no whole, there is the understanding of the difference between nama and rupa. It seems that we can focus on this or that but actually it is just different processes of cittas arising to do their invariable function. In the Abhidhammasangaha (see Compendium of Philosophy" by PTS, p. 33)and commentary to it. Here it is explained that when distinct recognition of the object occurs; such recognition does not occur in a bare five-door process itself. Take the perception of a rose : this is actually an extremely complex series of events the eye-door process, is followed first by a mind-door process (tadanuvattika manodvaravithi), which reproduces in the mind door the object just perceived in the sense-door process. Then comes a process of taking the object as whole (samudayagahika); then a process recognizing the colour (vannasallakkhana); then a process grasping the entity (vatthugahika); then a process recognizing the entity (vatthusallakkhana); then a process grasping the name (namagahika); then a process recognizing the name (namasallakkhana). Nina van Gorkom wrote about this that "The only thing is, we should not think that immediately in the next process comes grasping the object as a whole and the next one recognizing the colour, etc. We cannot count the different processes, too fast. This commentary speaks about processes alternating several hundred thousand times before the synthetic process takes place."" ++++++++++ > +++++++++++++ "robmoult" wrote:I picked the "dot" analogy for two reasons: > - It makes more sense to me > - Shwe Zan Aung's Introductory Essay to the PTS Abhidhammattha- > sangaha (1910) which, I believe is supported by Ledi Sayadaw. > SZA: > Here is the relevant portion of the essay: Each process is followed, with a brief moment or two of the > subconscious continuum intervening, by the process called 'grasping > the past' (atitaggahana process), in which there is necessarily a > depicting to the imagination of the past object has just perceived, > the images alone of the different parts of the rose being present in > the mind. These two processes may alternate with each other several > hundred thousand times before the synthetic process takes place. The > alternation of these two processes may be compared to that of makes > and breaks in the connection of an electric dynamo (Ledi Sayadaw > cites the ancient and well-known simile of the circle of fire caused > by a moving point, to show the persistency of an image). > > SZA then proceeds to describe the synthesis process (samudaynggahana > or samuhaggahana) which is described as grasping of what 'rises up > together' or of a 'collective whole'. ++++++++++++ I read what Shwe Zan Aung said and still couldn't find where he said visible object is a single dot? Can you also show me where Ledi sayadaw said this. RobertK 25051 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sat Sep 6, 2003 10:23pm Subject: Re: [dsg] sense-door process and mind-door process Dear Rob M, Thank you for your post. See below. op 06-09-2003 00:42 schreef robmoult op rob.moult@j...: > The eye-door citta process is followed by some bhavanga cittas and > then a mind-door citta process arises, which takes a concept as > object. The object of this first mind-door citta process after the > eye-door citta process is the "mental image" of the visible object. > The characteristic of the visible object (red, blue, etc.) > was "marked" by the cetasika sanna in the cittas of the eye-door > citta process. This characteristic is noted by the cetasika sanna in > the cittas of the first mind-door citta process to mark the mental > image (concept) of a coloured dot. N: Just one remark: the first mind-door process cittas after the sense-door process , here eye-door process, do not have a concept as object, they have the same visible object which has just fallen away as object. Nina. 25052 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sat Sep 6, 2003 10:23pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism. XIV, 12 according to feelings. Hi Larry, op 06-09-2003 08:04 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > > 12. 5. In the fourth dyad, understanding belonging to two of the > kinds of sense-sphere profitable consciousness,> (5) of the kinds of path consciousness with four of the jhanas in the fivefold method, is "accompanied by joy". Understanding belonging to two > of the kinds of sense-sphere profitable consciousness, and belonging to > (the remaining) four kinds of path consciousness with the fifth jhana is > "accompanied by equanimity". N: Lokiya(mundane) panna and lokuttara panna can be accompanied by happy feeling or by indifferent feeling. As to mundane panna:There are two kusala cittas of the sense-sphere, accompanied by panna associated with somanassa, happy feeling, one is prompted, one is unprompted. There are two kusala cittas of the sense-sphere, accompanied by panna associated with upekkha, indifferent feeling , one is prompted, one is unprompted. As to lokuttara panna: For those who have developed jhana and vipassana there can be lokuttara cittas accompanied by the jhanafactors of the fifferent stages of jhana (there are five stages according to the fivefold method). Each of the four path-consciousnesses (of the four stages of enlightenment) can be accompanied by the factors of the first... up to fourth jhana, and these are associated with happy feeling. Reason: these four jhanas are associated with happy feeling. As to the four Path consciousnesses with the factors of the fifth jhana these are accompanied by equanimity, since the fifth jhana has equanimity, not happy feeling. For those who did not develop jhana, the path-consciousness is accompanied by happy feeling. Nina. 25053 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sat Sep 6, 2003 10:23pm Subject: Re: [dsg] sanna and vipassana Dear Larry and Rob, Commentary to the Mahaaraahulovaadasutta can help us here. op 06-09-2003 02:33 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > I see you have been reading Mathieu Boisvert. I'm understanding the "10 > sa~n~naa" as 10 signs. In Vism. it says sa~n~naa cannot penetrate the > three general characteristics so I think this means imagining > impermanence and understanding impermanence are different. > > A possible controversy may arise: concentration is the proximate cause > of understanding, "strong imagination" (thirasa~n~naa) is the proximate > case of sati. So the proximate cause of pa~n~naa is a concept (mental > image). Explain that! N; I quote:< aniccasa~n~nanti aniccaanupassanaaya sahajaatasa~n~na.m. As to the words, perception(sanna) of impermanence, this refers to perception that arises together with contemplation of impermanence. vipassanaa eva vaa esaa asa~n~naapi sa~n~naasiisena sa~n~naati vuttaa. Just insight: although not perception, it is called perception because it is under the heading of perception. > Also in the Co to the Vibhanga I remember that vipassana is meant, though the word sanna is used. It depends on the context. Nina. 25054 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sat Sep 6, 2003 10:23pm Subject: Re: [dsg] dsgn, rupa and Pali accents Dear Icaro op 05-09-2003 22:07 schreef icaro franca op icarofranca@y...: > Don´t need to worry about Velthuis replacements: I > use Norman Pali fonts that replaces the dotted n by > ñ...which is supported by my portuguese ABNT keyboard. > Is not Arana, is Araña... far from!!! N: For Email, letters come over differently, that is why we use Velthuis. replacing the dotted n by > ñ ? I do not understand. the .n, that is, n with a dot underneath, is different from ~n, the Spanish n (on my computer ñ, but not everybody gets this the same). ara.na: removed from. ara~n~na (nt) is: remotedness (same stem), of forest. but it has two: ~n~n. Nina. 25055 From: rjkjp1 Date: Sat Sep 6, 2003 10:23pm Subject: [dsg] Re: The workings of sanna --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "m. nease" wrote: > Dear RobK, > > Do you take ruupaayattana to be the entire visual field? Does it arise (and > subside) at once? > > mike Dear Mike, I wrote a reply about this. Visible object is what appears to the eyeconsciousness. If over the years of writing on dsg I have given the idea that any Dhamma lasts then I apologize. RobertK 25056 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sat Sep 6, 2003 10:23pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Finally !!! Lieber Freund Icaro, Sehr gut, ich bin jetzt auch dorthin gegangen. Es ist alles auf Deutsch. Aber Meditation?? Ich weisz nicht. Welche Art Meditation? Do you prefer German for the Dhamma, or rather French? Do you find Visuddhimagga in English difficult to follow? But Pali is best of all. op 05-09-2003 23:57 schreef icarofranca op icarofranca@y...: > At last,at this website I will download a full copy of the > Visuddhimagga and of the Abhidhamma Sangaha in German!!!! 25057 From: Jim Anderson Date: Sat Sep 6, 2003 10:33pm Subject: Re: [dsg] The workings of sanna Hi Larry, Rob M., & All, Something is not right here when Vism XIV.7 states that concentration (samaadhi) is the proximate cause of pa~n~naa while B.Bodhi's Guide to §8 (p. 90) of CMA states that wise attention is the proximate cause. I checked the Abhidhammatthavibhaavinii and could find nothing in it pertaining to the proximate cause of panna. So I'd like to know where B.Bodhi got the 'yoniso manasikaaro' from. Possibly relevant: in AN X.61, the Buddha states that 'wise attention' is the nutriment of sati-sampaja~n~na. Best wishes, Jim > Rob: "I am confused, Larry. The proximate cause of panna is wise > attention (yoniso manisakara). Please rephrase the question." > > Larry: aHa! I see you have not been keeping up with the Visuddhimagga > thread. See Vism. XIV, 7: "its [pa~n~naa) proximate cause is > concentration." See CMA for proximate cause of sati is thirasa~n~na; > translated there as "strong perception". I see them pointing to the same > thing, i.e., sa~n~naa's role in identifying by means of a sign. I > translated thirasa~n~naa as "strong imagination" but it might be better > to say distinct identity. In some ways this fits in well with the > intention behind the concept and reality distinction insofar as the idea > is to attend to experience rather than discursive thinking. But in other > ways it could be construed as problematic because identity is concept; > so concept is the proximate cause of understanding (pa~n~naa). Where > does that leave the distinction between concept and reality? > > I see that CMA says the proximate cause of pa~n~naa is wise attention. > What does "wise" mean, "sati"? > > Larry 25058 From: Sarah Date: Sat Sep 6, 2003 10:40pm Subject: Re: [dsg] kamma and defilement. Hi Howard, --- upasaka@a... wrote: Nina: > > To use a Howardian expression, I do not buy this. ..... S: ;-) ..... > > Also Rob K has explained very clearly about the three cycles. > > > ========================= H: > I find this matter of a repeating triple of cycle-of-kamma -> > cycle-of-vipaka -> cycle-of-kilesa extremely interesting. It seems to be > a neat way of > describing samsara, and a way that I haven't seen before. I would like > to > read a bit more about this. Could you give me any references, including > pointers > to Rob K's exposition and to places it might be found in the Vism or the > CMA? .... S: Please check these posts from UP. I’m in a rush, but I think you’ll find they are mostly RobK’s as mentioned: Rounds (3)- kamma-vatta, vipaka-vatta, kilesa-vatta 1811,2260, 5336, 7444, 8506 CMA: from index - round of existence (va.t.ta) chV111 3,8,10 Vism: from index -round of defilement (lilesa va.t.ta) XV11 298 etc Pls let us hear your further thoughts and reflections after following these leads. Metta, Sarah ===== 25059 From: Sarah Date: Sat Sep 6, 2003 10:50pm Subject: New to the Visuddhimagga thread??? Hi Larry, Robs M ‘n Ep and anyone new to the Vism thread, --- LBIDD@w... wrote: > Larry: aHa! I see you have not been keeping up with the Visuddhimagga > thread. ..... Fair Go Larry! You’re meant to be encouraging them;-) For the extracts posted and discussed so far from the Visuddhimagga, Understanding section, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/ Almost at the bottom under z-Vism...., you’ll find the links to the extracts themselves followed by the Pali. For Nina’s sub-commentary translations, details given by Jim or other clarifications on difficult points, go to Useful Posts, also in the files section and scroll down to the bottom to Visuddhimagga -Understanding. Remember, it’s never too late to join in, add contributions or ask for clarifications from earlier extracts. We’re all going to be on this thread for a very good long while, so the sooner you join in the better. Metta, Sarah ======== 25060 From: rjkjp1 Date: Sat Sep 6, 2003 10:56pm Subject: Re: [dsg] The workings of sanna --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Jim Anderson" wrote: > Hi Larry, Rob M., & All, > > Something is not right here when Vism XIV.7 states that concentration > (samaadhi) is the proximate cause of pa~n~naa while B.Bodhi's Guide to > §8 (p. 90) of CMA states that wise attention is the proximate cause. I > checked the Abhidhammatthavibhaavinii and could find nothing in it > pertaining to the proximate cause of panna. So I'd like to know where > B.Bodhi got the 'yoniso manasikaaro' from. ++++++++++++ Dear Jim, I don't know if this is relevant. In the 'Majjhima nikaya' I (no. 43, Mahavedalla Kotthita asked Sariputta: "'But what is intuitive wisdom for, your reverence?' 'Your reverence, intuitive wisdom is for super-knowledge, for apprehending, for getting rid of.' 'But how many conditions are there, your reverence, for bringing right understanding into existence?' 'There are two conditions, your reverence, for bringing right understanding into existence: the utterance of another (person) and wise attention. Your reverence, there are the two conditions for bringing right understanding into existence.'" RobertK 25061 From: Date: Sat Sep 6, 2003 10:57pm Subject: Re: [dsg] sanna and vipassana Hi Nina, Would you say contemplation/mindfulness (anupassana) is applied thought and sustained thought (vitakka vicaara)? Larry --------------------- N; I quote:< aniccasa~n~nanti aniccaanupassanaaya sahajaatasa~n~na.m. As to the words, perception(sanna) of impermanence, this refers to perception that arises together with contemplation of impermanence. vipassanaa eva vaa esaa asa~n~naapi sa~n~naasiisena sa~n~naati vuttaa. Just insight: although not perception, it is called perception because it is under the heading of perception. > Also in the Co to the Vibhanga I remember that vipassana is meant, though the word sanna is used. It depends on the context. Nina. 25062 From: rjkjp1 Date: Sat Sep 6, 2003 11:02pm Subject: Re: [dsg] The workings of sanna --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" wrote: > The problem is that, outside of deep meditation, we > are not aware of concepts until they reach the naming stage, at > which point they are already quite complex. > ++++++++++++ Dear Robm, Could you define 'deep meditation'? Robertk 25063 From: Sarah Date: Sat Sep 6, 2003 11:12pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: dsgn, rupa and Pali accents Dear Nina, Connie, Icaro & A.Paul, --- nina van gorkom wrote: I: > > Dhammasangani, fourth book - Atthakathakhandam, > > last stanca: > > > > "1616. Katame dhamma arana? Cattusu bhumisu kusalam, > > cattusu bhumisu vipako, tisu bhumisu kiriyabyakatam, > > RUPA?CA, nibbana?ca? ime dhamma arana." >N: arana should be spelled: ara.na (this is Velthuis, a dot under the > n, > which makes a lot of difference). It means: far from, away from. > The signs coming over on computer as ? also need replacement by > Velthuis. It > is essential to have thos correct, we may confuse cases. . uu for the > long > u, aa for the long a. Shall I give you the whole list? I have now > completed > my funny sign list with the Velthuis equivalents. > You know this one: 3/4 is : aa. 1/2 is : .m . .... Perhaps you would kindly post your complete list Nina with a couple of lines of explanation at the top. Then as Connie suggests, we can add it in the UP under Pali where there are a couple of other useful signpost posts by Christine & others. I was so lazy after Jim’s kind suggestions. I did nothing. Now I’m glad, because you’ve done all the work for me;-) Icaro, I promise that when I get Nina’s code-breaker, the first thing I’ll do is to download the entire Dhammasangani-Pali and convert the symbols into velthius characters. Then I’ll be ready for our line by line study of this first Abhidhamma text (Pali-English) when you get back from boot-camp. Hopefully, Howard will be interested to join in then as well. Connie, I’m glad to see your interest in the code-breaker too. Is it because you have a mac computer as well? I thought it was only a problem for mac people. A.Paul & Icaro, talking of funny symbols and studying texts in many languages, we have a copy of CMA in Chinese characters (thanks to RobM again) to pass on to A.Paul. It’s a beautiful looking book and they seem to be published in Penang. Icaro, let me know if you’d like the address to ask for a copy ;-) Paul, pls contact Jon or me off-list to arrange meeting/pick-up. Metta, Sarah ====== 25064 From: Date: Sat Sep 6, 2003 11:18pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism. XIV, 12 Hi Nina, Could you explain or give an example that illustrates how or why understanding is accompanied by joy or equanimity (pleasant mental feeling and neutral mental feeling)? Why isn't understanding accompanied by unpleasant mental feeling? Larry ------------- "So it is of two kinds as accompanied by joy or by equanimity." 25065 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sat Sep 6, 2003 11:29pm Subject: A couple of questions Dear Group, I'm working through some old Retreat tapes from my first teacher of meditation... In a Dhamma Talk on the six sense fields he mentions that though all the fields are radically different, they all have one thing in common. He doesn't give the answer - I think we were all supposed to discern during the Practice just what that was. At the moment, he is out of contact, so I am unable to ask. Is the answer something so simple that I am overlooking it? Is it the idea that it is a 'self' who experiences all incoming sense data? Is Upekkha (equanimity) also the ability to see any visible object (pleasant or unpleasant)with no emotional reaction at all? Or would there be a different term. metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time 25066 From: Date: Sat Sep 6, 2003 7:52pm Subject: Re: [dsg] A couple of questions Hi Christine I suspect that your teacher is referring to the mind as the thing that all six sense fields have in common. "They all meet there." As far as Upekka is concerned... overcoming emotions makes sense to me... at least overcoming any negative emotions. Perhaps overcoming impurities is some pure, blissful form of emotion associated with Upekka, but I would think that what we normally take as emotions are suppressed. TG In a message dated 9/6/2003 11:32:10 PM Pacific Daylight Time, cforsyth@v... writes: > Dear Group, > > I'm working through some old Retreat tapes from my first teacher of > meditation... In a Dhamma Talk on the six sense fields he mentions > that though all the fields are radically different, they all have one > thing in common. He doesn't give the answer - I think we were all > supposed to discern during the Practice just what that was. At the > moment, he is out of contact, so I am unable to ask. > Is the answer something so simple that I am overlooking it? Is it > the idea that it is a 'self' who experiences all incoming sense > data? > Is Upekkha (equanimity) also the ability to see any visible object > (pleasant or unpleasant)with no emotional reaction at all? Or would > there be a different term. > > metta and peace, > Christine > 25067 From: Date: Sat Sep 6, 2003 11:57pm Subject: Re: [dsg] The workings of sanna Jim, Thanks for this info. I was hoping someone would look it up. I think someone (Sarah?) discussed wise attention sometime back but I have forgotten what was said. Larry ----------------- Jim: "I checked the Abhidhammatthavibhaavinii and could find nothing in it pertaining to the proximate cause of panna." 25068 From: Antony Woods Date: Sun Sep 7, 2003 0:00am Subject: Kamma (Was re: Bahiya5) Hello Christine and all, The following article by Thanissaro Bhikkhu is relevant here: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/modern/thanissaro/karma.html Karma, by Thanissaro Bhikkhu (1996; 8k/2pp.) This short introductory essay explains the nature of karma (Pali: kamma), or willful action. The process of karma is a complex interplay between the fruits of our past actions (over which we have no control in the present) and the choices we make in the present moment; it is not a convenient justification for the misfortune of others ("Oh, it's just their karma!"). "In the eyes of most Americans, karma functions like fate -- bad fate, at that: an inexplicable, unchangeable force coming out of our past, for which we are somehow vaguely responsible and powerless to fight. "I guess it's just my karma," I've heard people sigh when bad fortune strikes with such force that they see no alternative to resigned acceptance. The fatalism implicit in this statement is one reason why so many of us are repelled by the concept of karma, for it sounds like the kind of callous myth-making that can justify almost any kind of suffering or injustice in the status quo: "If he's poor, it's because of his karma." "If she's been raped, it's because of her karma." From this it seems a short step to saying that he or she deserves to suffer, and so doesn't deserve our help." He goes on to explain that "the early Buddhist concept (of kamma) was not fatalistic at all.... So, instead of promoting resigned powerlessness, the early Buddhist notion of karma focused on the liberating potential of what the mind is doing with every moment." Dr Thynn Thynn from Burma gave an Abhidhamma workshop in 1999 in Sydney and I asked some questions about kamma. She said that when someone was suffering and could be helped, compassion was emphasised rather than the law of kamma. She agreed with my point that the teaching of kamma is a "skillful means" taught to encourage the cultivation of virtue in the present moment. We do not exist as separate selves that can step out of the living process in order to comment on it (such as commenting/speculating on someone's past kamma - such thoughts themselves are making new mental kamma). And the Buddha called kamma an "imponderable" that thinking too much about could drive you crazy. The Buddha was not a computer who would always satisfy curiosity about kamma by providing facts. He was only concerned with ending suffering. Antony. 25069 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Sun Sep 7, 2003 0:22am Subject: RE: [dsg] accumulations. Hi Jon, > -----Original Message----- > From: Jonothan Abbott [mailto:jonoabb@y...] > Sent: Saturday, September 06, 2003 10:00 PM > the meaning carried by 'nueng' (hidden, perhaps?). Kom or Nina? > According to the dictionary, neung means: - in continuation - related - things that are related / closed to one another Non neung, by the words only, mean lying latent, sleeping still, but in continuation.... kom 25070 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sun Sep 7, 2003 0:43am Subject: Re: [dsg] A couple of questions Hello TG, I also wondered if it could be mind, even though mind is one of the fields (or doors) itself. I also wondered if the thing they have in common is that input of data can't be prevented for long, while we are alive. I can close my eyes and block my ears for a long time, refuse to eat or drink for days, not breath for a minute or two, stop thoughts for even less and do nothing at all to numb my body. Interesting about upekkha - one who has entered the third jhana is described as experiencing in his person that feeling of which the Noble Ones say, 'Happy lives the man of equanimity and attentive mind'. metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, TGrand458@a... wrote: > Hi Christine > > I suspect that your teacher is referring to the mind as the thing that all > six sense fields have in common. "They all meet there." > > As far as Upekka is concerned... overcoming emotions makes sense to me... at > least overcoming any negative emotions. Perhaps overcoming impurities is some > pure, blissful form of emotion associated with Upekka, but I would think that > what we normally take as emotions are suppressed. > > TG 25071 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sun Sep 7, 2003 0:51am Subject: Re: Kamma (Was re: Bahiya5) Hello Antony, Thank you for your thoughts and the link. Interesting that Thanissaro sees it including free-will ... I am really wrestling with this matter, I seem to be able to intellectually accept most of the Teachings, even see all beings, including well babies, as 'functionally unified combinations of the 5 aggregates'. But murdered babies are another matter. Suddenly the Teachings revert to being words on paper. I really appreciate your post Antony, lovely to hear from you again. I like Dr. Thynn Thynn's encouragement to feel compassion, which I do feel for the mother. The babes aroused intense anger. But, then again, the compassion and the anger came by themselves and are nothing to do with being buddhist, or christian or kalathumpian. metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Antony Woods" 25072 From: Sarah Date: Sun Sep 7, 2003 5:56am Subject: the proximate cause of wisdom Hi Larry, Jim, Robs M&K & All, --- LBIDD@w... wrote: > Jim, > Thanks for this info. I was hoping someone would look it up. I think someone (Sarah?) discussed wise attention sometime back but I have forgotten what was said.< ..... S: I’m not sure if you’re referring to general discussions on wise attention in order to understand the teachings or specifically on pada.t.thaana (proximate cause) discussions. I’ll refer back to a few on both. RobM will be able to give you other specific examples of wise attention as proximate cause. There have been many suttas cited referring to the importance of wise attention. Some can be found under ‘Considering, listening....’ in UP. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/Useful_Posts Jon quoted from the Kitagiri Sutta, MN70 a long time back: >MLDB translation (p. 582) 22. "Bhikkhus, I do not say that final knowledge is achieved all at once. On the contrary, final knowledge is achieved by gradual training, by gradual practice, by gradual progress. 23. "And how does there come to be gradual training, gradual practice, gradual progress? Here one who has faith [in a teacher] visits him; when he visits him, he pays respect to him; when he pays respect to him, he gives ear; one who gives ear hears the Dhamma; having heard the Dhamma he memorises it; he examines the meaning of the teachings he has memorised; when he examines their meaning, he gains a reflective acceptance of those teachings; when he has gained a reflective acceptance of those teachings, zeal springs up in him; when zeal has sprung up, he applies his will; having applied his will, he scrutinises; having scrutinised, he strives; resolutely striving, he realises with the [mental] body the ultimate truth and sees it by penetrating it with wisdom."< end quote> ..... RobK quoted ‘The Peg’ which is also relevant to the decline of the sasana thread: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/6569 The last part reads: >"Thus you should train yourselves: 'We will listen when discourses that are words of the Tathagata -- deep, deep in their meaning, transcendent, connected with emptiness -- are being recited. We will lend ear, will set our hearts on knowing them, will regard these teachings as worth grasping & mastering.' That's how you should train yourselves." The commentary notes that this means deep teachings such as those dealing with emptiness(sunnatapatisamyutta), explaining mere phenomena devoid of a being (sattasunnata-dhammamattam eva pakasaka) ***** > ----------------- > Jim: "I checked the Abhidhammatthavibhaavinii and could find nothing in > it pertaining to the proximate cause of panna." ..... Jon looked and said he couldn’t find it either. As a reminder, we’re talking about these lines from Vism (which I found easily in the file;-)): Vism.EngPali.XIV, 7 7 “'One who is concentrated knows and sees correctly' (A.v.3) its proximate cause is concentration.” 7.”``samaahito yathaabhuuta.m jaanaati passatii''ti (a0 ni0 3.10.2) vacanato pana samaadhi tassaa pada.t.thaana.m.” ***** We discussed pada.t.thaana.m (proximate cause/immediate occasion/footing) before in other contexts however. I’ll give some links and relevant(I hope) quotes I gave before from The Netti-ppakara.na’m (The Guide, PTS) http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/m12994.html I concluded that: “Actually, reviewing these references I gave before and then checking a few more afterwards, I’m not sure how rigidly we should view poximate causes and there may be variants in different contexts perhaps.” .... "Immediate occasion (pada.t.thaana.m) means proximate cause. Thus wherever we speak of characteristics, etc, their mutual difference should be understood in this wise." Atthasalini transl PTS p84 ***** In this post, the Netti reference (167)p.49 also mentions concentration as the footing (pada.t.thaana) for wisdom but ends by saying all kinds of condition are a ‘footing’. http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/m13072.html " Concentration is the footing for knowing and seeing how(things) are. Knowing and seeing how (things) are is the footing for dispassion. Dispassion is the footing for fading of lust. Fading of lust is the footing for deliverance. Deliverance is the footing for knowing and seeing of deliverance. In this way all kinds of general-support, all kinds of conditions, are a footing." ***** http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/m12376.html I mentioned that pada.t.thaana literally means 'footprint' from pada-foot. " 'Investigate yourselves, launch out' are the footing for energy. (The words) 'Devote yourselves in the Enlightened One's Dispensation' are the footing for concentration. (The words) 'Scatter the armies of Mortality as does an elephant a hut of reeds' are the footing for understanding...."(Netti, 40 p65 in transl) ..... Also under the "Mode of conveying Footings"(Netti, 104 p140 in transl): 'Giving right view first place': this is the footing for insight. 'Through knowing rise and fall: this is the footing for the plane of seeing (as the path of Stream Entry). 'Transcending drowsing and lethargy a bhikkhu may': this is the footing for energy. 'Abandon all bad destinations': this is the footing for keeping in being(as the attainment of the three higher paths)." ***** Apologies for length. I had planned to just give a few links;-) Nina and RobM have also given a lot of consideration to proximate causes and may have other comments. Metta, Sarah ====== 25073 From: Sarah Date: Sun Sep 7, 2003 6:11am Subject: RE: [dsg] accumulations. Hi Kom (Mike & Icaro), Good to see you around. I hope others find qus for you too;-) --- Kom Tukovinit wrote: > > According to the dictionary, neung means: > - in continuation > - related > - things that are related / closed to one another > > Non neung, by the words only, mean lying latent, sleeping still, but in > continuation.... ..... While you're giving Thai lessons (Icaro, hope you're taking notes;-)), what is the Thai word K.Sujin uses for accumulations in general, as when she says 'it's his/her accumulations' in English? Is the Thai word used in ordinary conversation and does it have any Pali equivalent? I thought this might bear on Mike's qu. Metta, Sarah ===== 25074 From: Sarah Date: Sun Sep 7, 2003 6:31am Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhammadaana Hi Mike, --- "m. nease" wrote: > DSG, > > I felt the way Harry Potter must feel when Hedwig arrives--a big white > 'Royal Mail' bag was propped against my door when I >got home, [...] .... Many thx for your kind note of appreciation. I had to explain to Jon who Hedwig is (Harry Potter’s owl which delivers mail and other goodies for the HP ignorant members);-) .... [...] > Do you compare the Exposition with BB's CMA? .... The Exposition is pretty new for us too. I don’t think I have any rules for use;-) When you want to see what BB’s guide notes are based on or read the direct translation of the commentary, it’s very useful - like just now for checking about proximate cause. You could use the Pali with it perhaps?? .... > There's more here than I can hope to digest in what's left of this > lifetime--thanks a million. .... ;-) It’s true - there’s a lot to digest, but we can all continue to give each other reminders and discuss difficult points. When I read any of these texts, I like to remember that the value is only in assisting the understanding [of the realities] at this very moment. with metta, Sarah (& Jon) ============= 25075 From: Jim Anderson Date: Sun Sep 7, 2003 6:32am Subject: Re: [dsg] The workings of sanna Dear Robert K., (and Larry) Thanks for your reference which reminded me of the four factors conducive to the growth of wisdom. I've been searching the CSCD texts for a reference to back up what B. Bodhi had in his note but haven't come up with anything so far. The commentary (p. 14) to Pa.tisambhidhaamagga has samaadhi as the proximate cause of panna and it is the same in the Abhidhammaavataara (verse 1180). Interestingly, Atthasaalinii (p. 63) has 'wise attention' as the proximate cause of 'kusala' (see Expositor, p. 84 'rational attention'). Will keep looking and if I or no one else can find a reference, perhaps Sarah can ask B. Bodhi himself for it. Jim << Dear Jim, I don't know if this is relevant. In the 'Majjhima nikaya' I (no. 43, Mahavedalla Kotthita asked Sariputta: "'But what is intuitive wisdom for, your reverence?' 'Your reverence, intuitive wisdom is for super-knowledge, for apprehending, for getting rid of.' 'But how many conditions are there, your reverence, for bringing right understanding into existence?' 'There are two conditions, your reverence, for bringing right understanding into existence: the utterance of another (person) and wise attention. Your reverence, there are the two conditions for bringing right understanding into existence.'" RobertK >> 25076 From: Dan D. Date: Sun Sep 7, 2003 7:35am Subject: Re: Bahiya7 - *Nori* - simple living [just a quick question] Hi Nori, You are right that associating with the wise conduces to development of wisdom and associating with fools conduces to development of foolishness. But I have a question... You write: "It is difficult and painful (not to mention lonely) to maintain individuality somewhere, especially if you are against the grain." --> Dan: I'm wondering what you mean when you say 'individuality'. And why would this be something that one would want to maintain? 25077 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Sun Sep 7, 2003 8:24am Subject: RE: [dsg] accumulations. Hi Sarah, > -----Original Message----- > From: Sarah [mailto:sarahdhhk@y...] > Sent: Sunday, September 07, 2003 6:11 AM > To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com > Subject: RE: [dsg] accumulations. > While you're giving Thai lessons (Icaro, hope you're taking notes;-)), > what is the Thai word K.Sujin uses for accumulations in general, as when > she says 'it's his/her accumulations' in English? Is the Thai word used in > ordinary conversation and does it have any Pali equivalent? > Sasom - accumulate Karn Sasom - accumulation The noun is a commonly used word among some buddhists, where as the verb is a very common word among all population. I don't think this is rooted in pali, but I could be wrong... The other word which is used, but not in exactly the same way, nisay, means habit, and this is commonly used among all population. The word upa-nisay is also used, more in writing. This one you can guess: they come from nisaya, and upa-nisaya. Pakatupa-nisaya is not used, but pakati is a common word meaning normally. kom 25078 From: m. nease Date: Sun Sep 7, 2003 8:36am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The workings of sanna Hi Rob, ----- Original Message ----- From: rjkjp1 To: Sent: Saturday, September 06, 2003 10:23 PM Subject: [dsg] Re: The workings of sanna > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "m. nease" > wrote: > > Dear RobK, > > > > Do you take ruupaayattana to be the entire visual field? Does it > arise (and > > subside) at once? > > > > mike > Dear Mike, > I wrote a reply about this. Visible object is what appears to the > eyeconsciousness. Got it, thanks-- > If over the years of writing on dsg I have given > the idea that any Dhamma lasts then I apologize. Certainly not that I recall! mike 25079 From: m. nease Date: Sun Sep 7, 2003 8:19am Subject: Re: [dsg] The workings of sanna Hi Rob, ----- Original Message ----- From: robmoult To: Sent: Saturday, September 06, 2003 2:15 PM Subject: Re: [dsg] The workings of sanna > Hi Mike, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "m. nease" > wrote: > > This is pretty much as I see it too (no pun intended). Seems to > me, though, > > that those processes are continually intersperesed with other > sense- and > > mind-door processes so that, seemingly, as the (concept of) visual > field is > > formed other sense-fields are formed (again, seemingly) > simultaneously--we > > seem to hear the gull as we see it fly--actually countless > cittakha.nas, > > visual and auditory, (as well as many others, of course) arising > and > > subsiding WITHIN each field and interspersed, I think, to make up > the > > picture and the sound (in retrospect). What do you think? > > Interesting question. As there are billions of these processes in a > microsecond, it does *seem* that everything happens simultaneously. > > What feels right to me is that a stream at a particular door > proceeds to a certain level before information from another dooorway > is accepted. I suspect that this is linked to the presence of a > registration citta. If a citta process does not end with a > registration citta, then there is nothing "internal" for the next > mind-door citta process to connect to and so a new piece of sense > data is processed. If a citta process does end with a registration > citta, then the subsequent citta process will automatically take the > same object as the previous citta process. > > This is my speculation. Comments? This makes good sense to me, on first reading at least. Would my question make more sense if I'd written 'cittaviithis' rather than 'cittakha.nas'? Thanks for the able assistance. mike 25080 From: m. nease Date: Sun Sep 7, 2003 8:52am Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhammadaana Hi Sarah, ----- Original Message ----- From: Sarah To: Sent: Sunday, September 07, 2003 6:31 AM Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhammadaana > "...When I read any of > these texts, I like to remember that the value is only in assisting the > understanding [of the realities] at this very moment. Of course--thanks as always for the reminder. mike 25081 From: m. nease Date: Sun Sep 7, 2003 8:32am Subject: Re: [dsg] accumulations. Hi Jon, ----- Original Message ----- From: Jonothan Abbott To: Sent: Saturday, September 06, 2003 10:00 PM Subject: Re: [dsg] accumulations. > ...According to K. Suphee, just as 'anusaya' is used to denote latent > unwholesome tendencies that have been accumulated, the term 'aasaya' > is used to denote wholesome tendencies that have been accumulated > (with 'upanissaya' and 'accaasaya' also used in the texts). > > PED says for aasaya: "inclination, intention, will, hope; often > combined and compared with 'anusaya'...". Interesting, I've run across 'upanissaya' before but not 'accaasaya' or 'aasaya'--interesting and useful new terms, I think, for putting together the 'accumulations' puzzle. Thanks, mike 25082 From: Date: Sun Sep 7, 2003 5:06am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Elusive Mind-Door Objects & Samatha Hi, Jon - We are *very* close. In a message dated 9/7/03 12:47:05 AM Eastern Daylight Time, jonoabb@y... writes: > Howard > > Thanks for coming in here with your usual well-developed comments. > I'm pleased to see that we have more in common than not ;-)). For > instance, I think we are in agreement that-- > > - the development of the path is the development of insight/wisdom > into the true nature of dhammas, the moment-to-moment phenomena that > are the fundamental building blocks of the present moment > - this insight/wisdom disperses the ignorance and wrong view that > perceives a self existing in a world of people and things. > - if the appropriate conditions are in place, this insight/wisdom > can arise on ordinary occasions in the course of ordinary life > - those conditions include a correct intellectual understanding of > dhammas and insight, as set out in the teachings. > - for a given individual, the development of insight/wisdom is > strongly dependent on the extent to which insight/wisdom has been > developed in the past (this is the 'we must start from where we are' > factor that you have mentioned on occasion). > > No argument between us so far, I think ;-)) > --------------------------------------------- Howard: None. ---------------------------------------------- > > We may however have some differences as to what exactly is happening > at moments of the development of insight. You say-- > "... to attempt see, under ordinary circumstances, what *actually* > happens moment after moment in one's mindstream is like trying to see > the exact appearance of the bumps and pebbles in the roadway as one > hurtles down the highway on a moonless, sky-clouded, fog-filled > night." > > I do not see insight as being able to see on a moment-to-moment basis > the happenings in one's mindstream, even for one who has attained the > final goal let alone at relatively less advanced levels. I believe > that such a degree of understanding is the province of a Buddha or > the great disciples alone. > ------------------------------------------------ Howard: Well, of course I don't know. What I believe, however, is that there is no difference between the enlightenment of a Buddha and any other arahant. Now, whether an "ordinary" arahant can only discern *groups* of dhammas (which, in fact would only be concepts), and the discerning of individual dhammas and their features is the province solely of Buddhas, with their perfection of wisdom, I certainly don't know .. but I would doubt it. ------------------------------------------------- > > [In fact, according to the texts, even the the fact of the momentary > nature of dhammas does not become apparent *to direct awareness* > until an advanced stage -- I would suggest that our perception of the > momentary nature of dhammas is in truth an inference drawn from an > observation of the fact of changes occurring over a span of mind > moments, not because of developed awareness at a moment-to-moment > level. But I digress.] > > What I am saying is that although fundamental phenomena are to be > known individually, this does not mean they have to be or can be > known in units of a single moment. For example, the dhamma that is > visible-object can be known as the object that is being experienced > through the eye-door, and as different from the consciousness by > which the object is being perceived, without there being the > perception of a *mere single moment* of visible-object. The > perception occurs over a span of moments. At such moments there is a > glimmer of light through the 'cloudiness and murkiness' you mention. > Every such glimmer, no matter how weak or rare in occurrence, is so > valuable, since it accumulates and becomes a condition (by natural > decisive support condition) for another such occurrence in the > future. > ------------------------------------------------ Howard: I suspect this is quite so .. at all stages less than arahant. [BTW, if you are correct, then the Mahayanists know what they are talking about when they say that the goal of the "hinayanists" is a lesser one.] ------------------------------------------------- > > Just as importantly, when visible-object is seen as visible-object > and different in nature from the seeing consciousness by which it is > being experienced, there is right then and there a breaking down of > the 'reification' of a personal self and external objects, without > there being any 'attempt' to do so. The necessary effort is inherent > in the mind-moment. > ------------------------------------------------- Howard: Oh, for sure! There is no successful "attempting" to see these things so far as I can tell. The only successful attempting is the ongoing effort to engage in study, contemplation, guarding the senses, calming the mind through samatha technique, and ongoing mindfulness as possible - that is, continued cultivation, preparing the field so that seeds can sprout when conditions are right. ----------------------------------------------------- > > And also, at those very moments no hindrances arise to cloud the > view. The hindrances are not only being suppressed, they are > actually being (ever so slightly) eroded. This is what distinguishes > the force and effect of a moment of satipatthana/vipassana, no matter > how weak or brief, from the force and effect of a moment of samatha > even of the level of jhana. > -------------------------------------------------- Howard: No doubt, Jon. A moment of insight is like turning on the light in a da rkened convention meeting room. It does help, however, if when the light is turned on, the air filtration system has already temporarily cleared out all the cigar smoke. -------------------------------------------------- > > Jon > > ========================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 25083 From: Date: Sun Sep 7, 2003 5:26am Subject: Re: [dsg] kamma and defilement. Hi, Sarah - In a message dated 9/7/03 1:40:45 AM Eastern Daylight Time, sarahdhhk@y... writes: > S: Please check these posts from UP. I’m in a rush, but I think you’ll > find they are mostly RobK’s as mentioned: > > =========================== Thanks very much, Sarah. I will look over all the references you give. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 25084 From: Date: Sun Sep 7, 2003 7:46am Subject: Re: [dsg] A couple of questions Hi Christine I think we could find many things that the six senses share but my recollection is that there is a specific sutta the talks to this issue and it points to mind. Its possible I'm remembering wrong but I think that's right. The Sutta is probably either in Majjhima or Samyutta. I believe its the one that talks about 6 different animals being tied to the same stake and they all have to come to rest there. (The stake being the mind obviously.) I was also reading Path of Discrimination this morning about came across an interesting passage that talk about 8 faculties that arise as "conascent equipment" at the time the mind experiences the 4 Path and 4 Fruition moments. Joy was one of those faculties. I've got to think that Upekka is at its max during fruition moments and apparantly joy is present. Whether we want to consider this type of "spiritual" joy as an emotion or not depends on how we want to define emotion I suppose. It seems to me, though, that the vast majority of emotions and what society would normally think of as emotions are overcome during Upekka. Path of Discrimination, Pg. 117 -- 120 TG 25085 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Sep 7, 2003 11:50am Subject: subco Vis 8, continuation Hi Larry, The Tiika is silent on Vis. 11, 12 and 13. But in no 8, it elaborates on several points. Also on the plane of seeing and of development, as you find in Vis. XIV, 13. Therefore I just continue with Tiika, no 8. These two planes refer to lokuttara panna. And see further explanations after my translation. I wait for you with reference to Vis Ch XXII, § 127 (more on development), because I do not have this online. Subco 8, continuation: naamaruupavavatthaanavasenaati naamavavatthaanavasena, ³Because of the defining of mental phenomena and physical phenomena², this means, because of the defining of mental phenomena, ruupavavatthaanavasena ca. and because of the defining of physical phenomena. pa.thama.m nibbaanadassanato dassana~nca, nissayabhaavato sampayuttaa dhammaa bhavanti ettha, And ³seeing², because of seeing nibbana for the first time; the associated realities * exist here, because of the nature of dependance, sayampi vaa bhavati uppajjati na nibbaana.m viya apaatubhaavanti bhuumi caati dassanabhuumi, pa.thamamaggo. or it exists and arises also by itself, unlike nibbana which does not come into manifestation; and thus it is soil (or plane), the plane of seeing, namely, the first Path. sesamaggattaya.m pana yasmaa pa.thamamaggena di.t.thasmi.myeva dhamme bhaavanaavasena uppajjati, However, understanding belonging to the remaining Paths, arises because of developing with regard to what was only seen by the first Path. na adi.t.thapubba.m ki~nci passati, tasmaa bhaavanaa ca yathaavuttenatthena bhuumi caati bhaavanaabhuumi. It does not see anything that was not seen before, and thus, it is development and soil in the aforesaid meaning, namely, the plane of development. tattha pa~n~naa dassanabhuumibhaavanaabhuumivasena duvidhaati vuttaa. Here understanding is called twofold because it is the plane of seeing and the plane of development. **** English: ³Because of the defining of mental phenomena and physical phenomena², this means, because of the defining of mental phenomena, and because of the defining of physical phenomena. And ³seeing², because of seeing nibbana for the first time; the associated realities * exist here, because of the nature of dependance, or it exists and arises also by itself, unlike nibbana which does not come into manifestation; and thus it is soil (or plane), the plane of seeing, namely, the first Path. However, understanding belonging to the remaining Paths, arises because of developing with regard to what was only seen by the first Path. It does not see anything that was not seen before, and thus, it is development and soil in the aforesaid meaning, namely, the plane of development. Here understanding is called twofold because it is the plane of seeing and the plane of development. ****** * The cetasikas which accompany supermundane understanding. This understanding is bhuumi or soil: see explanation below. N: Bhuumi can mean plane of existence (hell, heaven, etc.), or plane of citta. When it is plane of citta, there are four bhuumis: cittas of the sense-sphere, of material jhaan, of immaterial jhaana and lokuttara, supermundane. The Expositor (II, 2i4, p. 291) explains the word bhuumi, translated as soil: <... in such phrases as Œin the pleasurable bhuumi in the realm of sense-desire¹ a state of consciousness [citta] is called bhuumi. But here the fruition of the religious life is intended; it is called bhuumi because it is the ground (or soil) for associated states, which are dependent on it. Or it is so called, because, although it transcends the world, it itself arises, unlike nibbaana, the unmanifested. ...> It is lokuttara dhamma but it is conditioned, it arises, unlike nibbaana which is unconditioned and does not arise. We read in the ³Guide², Netti, p. 17, footnote: We see here a different translation of bhaavanaa: keeping in being instead of development. Nina. ***** 25086 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Sep 7, 2003 11:50am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: dsgn, rupa and Pali accents Dear Connie, I thought of that, but my computer will only transmit in with ?? Computers behave like that. It will not work in a file, because of the coding. Do you have a list of Velthuis spelling, that is, computer spelling? It is only a small list. I suggest: go to Tipitka org http://www.tipitaka.org/tipitaka/booklistframe2.html. Download just a few paras of Mahaaraahulovaadasutta. In the middle is Suttanta, scroll down Majjhimapannaasa, II, Bhikkuvagga, second sutta. If you remember that: 3/4 = Aa. Then: + and _ underneath is aa, 1/2 is: .m, 1/4 is: .l, it is not difficult to find the place. You could download into your document until the red: k'o nu ajja. I give you the Velthuis equivalent so that you can go to work. It is easy. 2. mahaaraahulovaadasutta.m 113. eva.m me suta.m -- eka.m samaya.m bhagavaa saavatthiya.m viharati jetavane anaathapi.n.dikassa aaraame. atha kho bhagavaa pubba.nhasamaya.m nivaasetvaa pattaciivaramaadaaya saavatthi.m pi.n.daaya paavisi. aayasmaapi kho raahulo pubba.nhasamaya.m nivaasetvaa pattaciivaramaadaaya bhagavanta.m pi.t.thito pi.t.thito anubandhi. atha kho bhagavaa apaloketvaa aayasmanta.m raahula.m aamantesi -- ``ya.m ki~nci, raahula, ruupa.m -- Now here you have got them all. I can indicate which word and which line if you like. You make your own list on your doc. and keep it handy. Each new text you want to download you can begin to use your command: search and replace all, pasting and copying, but there are not many signs. Easy to do. Yes, as Icaro said, they have Visuddhimagga, under anna (to the right side). I am always disinclined to go to a Web, but Icaro, in his enthusiasm, pushed me up to go. We shall surely miss him. By the way,I cannot get enough of the Mahaaraahulovaadasutta. So let me know how things went and what we can do further. Nina. op 07-09-2003 01:13 schreef connie op nichicon@h...: > Dear Nina, > Would you consider putting your funny sign list in the files section of > the group? I, for one, would really appreciate a copy and imagine that > Sarah and a few others couldn't resist peeking at it. 25087 From: icaro franca Date: Sun Sep 7, 2003 11:51am Subject: Re: [dsg] Finally !!! Lieber Freundin Nina: ----------------------------------------------------- Nina:Sehr gut, ich bin jetzt auch dorthin gegangen. > Es ist alles auf Deutsch. Aber Meditation?? Ich > weisz nicht. Welche Art > Meditation? > Do you prefer German for the Dhamma, or rather > French? Do you find > Visuddhimagga in English difficult to follow? But > Pali is best of all. ----------------------------------------------------- Sehr gut! Ich spreche nur ein Wenig Deutsch... das ist immer dasselbe theater: darf ich mich vorstellen ? Mein name ist Ícaro, Ich bin Brazillien, usw. As a matter of fact, I do prefer English or French when available. I am just beginning with the Duroseille´s Pali grammar: The Dhammasangani is now much more easy to read - it´s just opening itself like a flower for me... but as I´ve said before, Buddhaghosa´s Baroque Pali is still a little beyond my forces! But I will reach the other shore of this question! I am taking my own german resources, refreshing my memories with a little grammar, etc But, since you mention French... are there versions of the Visuddhimagga in this language online ? Mettaya, Ícaro > op 05-09-2003 23:57 schreef icarofranca op > icarofranca@y...: > > > At last,at this website I will download a full > copy of the > > Visuddhimagga and of the Abhidhamma Sangaha in > German!!!! ===== Seize the time, there´s only minutes left to zero Just got a little taste, I gotta get some more, Just me and you 25088 From: icaro franca Date: Sun Sep 7, 2003 0:03pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: dsgn, rupa and Pali accents Dear Sarah: --------------------------------------------------- Sarah:" A.Paul & Icaro, talking of funny symbols and > studying texts in many > languages, we have a copy of CMA in Chinese > characters (thanks to RobM > again) to pass on to A.Paul. It’s a beautiful > looking book and they seem > to be published in Penang. Icaro, let me know if > you’d like the address to > ask for a copy ;-) Paul, pls contact Jon or me > off-list to arrange > meeting/pick-up." ---------------------------------------------------- I am interested, Sarah!!! Please do it as soon as possible, even if I can´t be able to reply from October to next January!!! Mettaya, Ícaro ===== Seize the time, there´s only minutes left to zero Just got a little taste, I gotta get some more, Just me and you 25089 From: Date: Sun Sep 7, 2003 0:41pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism. XIV, 12 Hi all, Here is some background info which may help in understanding this paragraph. It may not be 100% correct. It is pieced together from bits and pieces in CMA and my own thoughts. First, there is profitable (kusala), unprofitable, resultant, and functional consciousness. Profitable and unprofitable consciousnesses are willful, cause kamma, and result in resultant consciousness. Functional consciousness is nether willful nor resultant but it does function, cause things to happen. The profit of profitable consciousness is pleasant or desirable states. There are 4 kinds of sense-sphere profitable consciousness: 2 with joy, 2 with equanimity. The 2 with joy are prompted and unprompted; the 2 with equanimity are also prompted and unprompted. "Prompted" means cued by an "other". This paragraph is dealing with three broad categories of consciousness: spheres, jhanas, and paths. In all three consciousness is categorized according to its object and mental factors (cetasika). Each category has different levels. There are 4 spheres, 5 levels of jhana (in this way of organizing them), and 4 levels of path consciousness. The 4 spheres are: sense sphere, fine material sphere, immaterial sphere, and supramundane sphere. The sense sphere is ordinary consciousness with nama/rupa objects. The fine material sphere is the 5 levels of jhana consciousness. The immaterial sphere is the fifth level of jhana divided into 4 more levels with a different kind of object. The supramundane (lokuttara) sphere is the 4 path consciousnesses with nibbana as object. I think the reason fine material sphere is so called is because there is no consciousness of body. The object of jhana is the imagination of a rupa, usually visual, in a very general, non-specific sense, often enhanced by general evocative concepts such as "great", "beautiful", or "foul". Jhana itself is characterized by factors. These factors determine the level of jhana and I think it could be said that jhana is nothing more than consciousness with these factors and this kind of object. In the fine material sphere the levels according to factors are: 1. initial application & sustained application (thinking about), delight, joy, and one-pointedness. 2. sustained application, delight, joy, and one-pointedness. 3. delight, joy, and one-pointedness. 4. joy and one-pointedness. 5. equanimity and one pointedness. Notice that when combined with the 4 path consciousnesses you get 4 X4 with joy = 16 with joy and 4 X 1 with equanimity = 4 with equanimity. In the immaterial sphere the object changes from the imagination of a general visual rupa to 4 successive stages of the base or background of, first, the imagination, then the background of each succeeding background: infinite space, infinite consciousness, nothingness, nether perception nor non perception. I don't know why these are not included in the tabulations of this paragraph. Nina??? The 4 path consciousnesses are divided into 4 path consciousnesses and 4 fruition consciousnesses. All these have nibbana as object. I don't know if nibbana can be an object of jhana but the 8 path consciousnesses may or may not be associated with jhana. They are all associated with understanding (pa~n~naa). The 4 path conciousnesses themselves are 4 one time events that mark the permanent cessation of various forms of grasping. The fruition consciousnesses can occur many or a few times throughout the subsequent life. What ceases determines the level of path: stream enterer, once returner, non-returner, arahant. The progression is from gross to subtle. If you have made it this far, here is the paragraph, good luck: "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) ch. XIV [How many kinds of understanding are there?] 12. 5. In the fourth dyad, understanding belonging to two of the kinds of sense-sphere profitable consciousness, and belonging to sixteen (5) of the kinds of path consciousness with four of the jhanas in the fivefold method, is "accompanied by joy". Understanding belonging to two of the kinds of sense-sphere profitable consciousness, and belonging to (the remaining) four kinds of path consciousness with the fifth jhana is "accompanied by equanimity". So it is of two kinds as accompanied by joy or by equanimity. (5.) 'I.e. the four paths with the first jhana and those with the second, third, and fourth, out of the five' (Pm. 434). Larry 25090 From: Jim Anderson Date: Sun Sep 7, 2003 0:57pm Subject: Re: [dsg] the proximate cause of wisdom Hi Sarah, I just like to add that 'the four truths' is considered an alternative proximate cause of wisdom (catusaccapada.t.thaana) to the more usual samaadhipada.t.thaana according to some texts. References: Sv-p.t I 92, Cp-a 281. From what I've seen so far I think B. Bodhi's 'wise attention' is probably not supported by the texts. However, there is no problem in seeing it as a necessary condition for wisdom. I agree with the Atthasalini (p.63) that 'wise attention' is the (general) proximate cause of any wholesome state including those accompanied by knowledge or wisdom. Thanks for the quote from The Guide (Netti) which I had overlooked. Jim p.s. Yesterday, I got swarmed by some very nasty bees or wasps just outside of my cottage and got stung twice. I also got stung two weeks ago and I had up until then only been stung once in my life. I think there may be a nest nearby or under the cottage (worst case scenario) and I just hate the thought of having to deal with this problem, any suggestions? Never had a bee problem here before. Last year it was the problem with a large tree falling on my neighbour's house and the well going dry -- almost both at the same time. Just can't seem to get through a year without something bad happening in my forest paradise . > Hi Larry, Jim, Robs M&K & All, > > --- LBIDD@w... wrote: > Jim, > > > Thanks for this info. I was hoping someone would look it up. I think > someone (Sarah?) discussed wise attention sometime back but I have > forgotten what was said.< > ..... 25091 From: connie Date: Sun Sep 7, 2003 0:42pm Subject: Re: dsgn, rupa and Pali accents You're probably right, Sarah. Since I don't have a Mac, changing the odd-ball symbols I see in different things I've downloaded is probably a matter of getting the right fonts and/or playing with Pali-Trans awhile. More important right now might be a library trip and figuring out things like case and all those other grammar terms. peace, connie 25092 From: Ray Hendrickson Date: Sun Sep 7, 2003 1:36pm Subject: Re: [dsg] A couple of questions TG writes: > Hi Christine > > I think we could find many things that the six senses share but my > recollection is that there is a specific sutta the talks to this issue and it points to > mind. Its possible I'm remembering wrong but I think that's right. The Sutta > is probably either in Majjhima or Samyutta. I believe its the one that talks > about 6 different animals being tied to the same stake and they all have to > come to rest there. (The stake being the mind obviously.) > >> TG > > Ray: Here is the Sutta: Samyutta Nikaya XXXV.206 Chappana Sutta The Six Animals Translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu. For free distribution only. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- "Suppose that a man, wounded and festering, were to go into a swampy jungle. Its sharp-bladed grasses would pierce his feet; its thorns would scratch his festering sores. And so, from that cause, he would experience an even greater measure of pain and unhappiness. In the same way, there is the case where a certain monk, having gone to a village or to the wilderness, meets up with someone who upbraids him: 'This venerable one, acting in this way, undertaking practices in this way, is a thorn of impurity in this village.' Knowing this person to be a thorn, one should understand restraint and lack of restraint. "And what is lack of restraint? There is the case where a monk, seeing a form with the eye, is obsessed with pleasing forms, is repelled by unpleasing forms, and remains with body-mindfulness unestablished, with limited awareness. He does not discern, as it actually is present, the awareness-release, the discernment-release where any evil, unskillful mental qualities that have arisen utterly cease without remainder. "Hearing a sound with the ear... "Smelling an aroma with the nose... "Tasting a flavor with the tongue... "Touching a tactile sensation with the body... "Cognizing an idea with the intellect, he is obsessed with pleasing ideas, is repelled by unpleasing ideas, and remains with body-mindfulness unestablished, with limited awareness. He does not discern, as it actually is present, the awareness-release, the discernment-release where any evil, unskillful mental qualities that have arisen utterly cease without remainder. "Just as if a person, catching six animals of different ranges, of different habitats, were to bind them with a strong rope. Catching a snake, he would bind it with a strong rope. Catching a crocodile... a bird... a dog... a hyena... a monkey, he would bind it with a strong rope. Binding them all with a strong rope, and tying a knot in the middle, he would set chase to them. "Then those six animals, of different ranges, of different habitats, would each pull toward its own range & habitat. The snake would pull, thinking, 'I'll go into the anthill.' The crocodile would pull, thinking, 'I'll go into the water.' The bird would pull, thinking, 'I'll fly up into the air.' The dog would pull, thinking, 'I'll go into the village.' The hyena would pull, thinking, 'I'll go into the charnel ground.' The monkey would pull, thinking, 'I'll go into the forest.' And when these six animals became internally exhausted, they would submit, they would surrender, they would come under the sway of whichever among them was the strongest. In the same way, when a monk whose mindfulness immersed in the body is undeveloped & unpursued, the eye pulls toward pleasing forms, while unpleasing forms are repellent. The ear pulls toward pleasing sounds... The nose pulls toward pleasing aromas... The tongue pulls toward pleasing flavors... The body pulls toward pleasing tactile sensations... The intellect pulls toward pleasing ideas, while unpleasing ideas are repellent. This, monks, is lack of restraint. "And what is restraint? There is the case where a monk, seeing a form with the eye, is not obsessed with pleasing forms, is not repelled by unpleasing forms, and remains with body-mindfulness established, with immeasurable awareness. He discerns, as it actually is present, the awareness-release, the discernment-release where all evil, unskillful mental qualities that have arisen utterly cease without remainder. "Hearing a sound with the ear... "Smelling an aroma with the nose... "Tasting a flavor with the tongue... "Touching a tactile sensation with the body... "Cognizing an idea with the intellect, he is not obsessed with pleasing ideas, is not repelled by unpleasing ideas, and remains with body-mindfulness established, with immeasurable awareness. He discerns, as it actually is present, the awareness-release, the discernment-release where all evil, unskillful mental qualities that have arisen utterly cease without remainder. "Just as if a person, catching six animals of different ranges, of different habitats, were to bind them with a strong rope. Catching a snake, he would bind it with a strong rope. Catching a crocodile... a bird... a dog... a hyena... a monkey, he would bind it with a strong rope. Binding them all with a strong rope, he would tether them to a strong post or stake. "Then those six animals, of different ranges, of different habitats, would each pull toward its own range & habitat. The snake would pull, thinking, 'I'll go into the anthill.' The crocodile would pull, thinking, 'I'll go into the water.' The bird would pull, thinking, 'I'll fly up into the air.' The dog would pull, thinking, 'I'll go into the village.' The hyena would pull, thinking, 'I'll go into the charnel ground.' The monkey would pull, thinking, 'I'll go into the forest.' And when these six animals became internally exhausted, they would stand, sit, or lie down right there next to the post or stake. In the same way, when a monk whose mindfulness immersed in the body is developed & pursued, the eye does not pull toward pleasing forms, and unpleasing forms are not repellent. The ear does not pull toward pleasing sounds... The nose does not pull toward pleasing aromas... The tongue does not pull toward pleasing flavors... The body does not pull toward pleasing tactile sensations... The intellect does not pull toward pleasing ideas, and unpleasing ideas are not repellent. This, monks, is restraint. "The 'strong post or stake' is a term for mindfulness immersed in the body. "Thus you should train yourselves: 'We will develop mindfulness immersed in the body. We will pursue it, hand it the reins and take it as a basis, give it a grounding. We will steady it, consolidate it, and set about it properly.' That's how you should train yourselves." ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- Revised: Sun 8 December 2002 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn35-206.html 25093 From: torloff87048 Date: Sun Sep 7, 2003 1:43pm Subject: Personality view vs. Delusion Hi Sarah and others, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > > I agree with your comment, Kio, that there is no magic. However, I also > agree with Nina's comment that it is very difficult for panna to see the > more subtle shades of clinging to an idea of self as Bahiya eventually > realised. > T: In terms of eradicating the defilement of personality view, it might be helpful to consider the difference between the wrong view of self and the delusion of self. Personality view belongs to the cetasika wrong view (ditthi) while the bare belief "I exist" belongs to the cetasika delusion (moha). Speaking conventionally, one might term the delusion "I exist" a wrong view about self, but this is not the meaning of identity view as an aspect of ditthi. The delusion "I exist" may or may not be accompanied by a wrong view about self. When it is, that view always takes one of the 20 forms described in the Suttas, 4 for each of the 5 aggregates, e.g: One regards body as self, or self as possessing body, or body as in self, or self as in body. . Personality view is a doctrine held about the self. It can't arise without the delusion that self exists, but the delusion of self can be present without such a doctrine. Speaking loosely, one might say that personality view is a concretized form of the delusion that self exists. But in reality, personality view has a very different "flavor" than the bare delusion "I exist." That's why they belong to different cetasikas. For doctrinal support for this, consider the fact that personality view is eradicated upon the first path attainment of stream entry, while the delusion of a self can persist all the way to the final path attainment of the Arahant. See for example Samyutta Nikaya 22.89, where the Non-returner Khemaka explains how the lurking tendency to think "I am" still persists at this stage. . Using bare insight meditation, one way to tease out a personality view and distinguish it from delusion is the following: The delusion "I exist" is present almost all the time for most of us. It can be accessed in meditation by just asking, "Do I have a sensation of self here and now?" Assuming the answer is yes, and the sensation that is seen as evidence of self is being experienced, then one can ask, "Where do I believe this self is located?" That question may help bring forth a personality view if it is present. If there is a positive sense that the self is located somewhere, then continued pressure on this sensation to define and reveal itself will eventually bring forth one of the personality views. You'll know you've got it when the view arises from within and has a lot of "energy of conviction" associated with it. This is not an intellectual event, but the direct awareness of the presence of ditthi within oneself. It is as if one is taking a vague view of self and forcing it to reveal its true nature by patient cross-examination, the way one might pin down a vague person by more and more specific questions. There are many examples of Buddha doing this for people in the Suttas. Without Buddha, we have to do it for ourselves. The trick is to let the sensation answer for itself, not to turn to intellectual discourse for answers to these questions. The sensations have the answers already written in them. If they remain just vague sensations associated with words like, "Yes, I believe I have a self and it's located somewhere," then prompting the sensations with questions, like, "Is self associated with body? Feeling? Consciousness? Perception? Volition?" can help bring it forth. Paying attention to the sensations that arise with each question will lead one to locate which view is present at that moment. Under pressure, the view may temporarily disappear, which is an aspect of impermanence. Often a different personality view will arise in its place. But it's possible to stay with each one until it either leaves (for now) or reveals itself to be one of the 20 personality views. . I hope this is relevent and helpful. Once personality view is located through bare insight meditation like this, there are ways to foster the conditions which will lead to its complete abandonment. In terms of the original post, there's no "magic" in it. It's not necessarily easy, but it's not as hard as one might imagine if one believes that abandoning personality view is the same as abandoning all delusion of the existence of a self. . Metta, Toby 25094 From: Date: Sun Sep 7, 2003 2:17pm Subject: vis 8, continuation Nina: "I wait for you with reference to Vis Ch XXII, § 127 (more on development), because I do not have this online." Hi Nina, It took me a while to figure out what you were talking about. This reference comes up in the next paragraph, Vism. XIV, 13. Ch. XXII, 127, 128, 129 is the end of the chapter on Purification by Knowledge and Vision. I believe it is page 697 in the PTS translation. I can type it out in a day or two but I have one more question about mental feeling and feeling in general and I'm thinking there will be some corrections to what I have written on Vism. XIV 12. In the mean time maybe Icaro could copy and paste the German. It is the end of the Chapter on Purification by Knowledge and Vision beginning with "The seeing of nibbana at the first path is "realizing as seeing." in Ven.~Nanamoli"s trans. Larry 25095 From: torloff87048 Date: Sun Sep 7, 2003 5:02pm Subject: Re: [dsg] the proximate cause of wisdom > > p.s. Yesterday, I got swarmed by some very nasty bees or wasps just > outside of my cottage and got stung twice. I also got stung two weeks > ago and I had up until then only been stung once in my life. I think > there may be a nest nearby or under the cottage (worst case scenario) > and I just hate the thought of having to deal with this problem, any > suggestions? Hi Jim, If you can locate the hive, one thing you can do is wait till the night when the bees/wasps are inactive, then place the hive in a plastic bag and transport it somewhere else. The hive can be moved this way because it's something they build and live inside. At my cabin they often build them under eaves. I don't know if moving the hive this way is "fair game" from a kammic perspective, but that's the best solution I've been able to come up with. Metta, Toby 25096 From: norakat147 Date: Sun Sep 7, 2003 5:58pm Subject: Re: Bahiya7 - *Nori* - simple living [just a quick question] Hi Dan, > --> Dan: I'm wondering what you mean when you say 'individuality'. > And why would this be something that one would want to maintain? For example (just one aspect): If you are surrounded by people, thoughts, and the media of those whose lives are centered around aquiring sensual pleasures then this mode of behavior can be influential. I would like to maintain my individuality from this mode of behavior, but it makes it more difficult if that is the behavior of the people, thoughts and the media that surround you. metta, nori --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Dan D." wrote: > Hi Nori, > You are right that associating with the wise conduces to development > of wisdom and associating with fools conduces to development of > foolishness. > > But I have a question... > > You write: "It is difficult and painful (not to mention lonely) to > maintain individuality somewhere, especially if you are against the > grain." > > --> Dan: I'm wondering what you mean when you say 'individuality'. > And why would this be something that one would want to maintain? 25097 From: Date: Sun Sep 7, 2003 2:31pm Subject: Re: [dsg] A couple of questions Hi Ray That sutta actually does not make the point I was making. There may yet be another similar sutta that does or there may not. LOL But its possible. LOL TG In a message dated 9/7/2003 1:38:22 PM Pacific Daylight Time, rhendrickson1@e... writes: > TG writes: > > > >Hi Christine > > > >I think we could find many things that the six senses share but my > >recollection is that there is a specific sutta the talks to this issue and > it points to > >mind. Its possible I'm remembering wrong but I think that's right. The > Sutta > >is probably either in Majjhima or Samyutta. I believe its the one that > talks > >about 6 different animals being tied to the same stake and they all have > to > >come to rest there. (The stake being the mind obviously.) > > > >>TG > > > > > Ray: > > Here is the Sutta: > > Samyutta Nikaya XXXV.206 > Chappana Sutta > The Six Animals > Translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu. > For free distribution only. > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ---- > "Suppose that a man, wounded and festering, were to go into a swampy jungle. > Its sharp-bladed grasses would pierce his feet; its thorns would scratch his > festering sores. And so, from that cause, he would experience an even > greater measure of pain and unhappiness. In the same way, there is the case > where a certain monk, having gone to a village or to the wilderness, meets > up with someone who upbraids him: 'This venerable one, acting in this way, > undertaking practices in this way, is a thorn of impurity in this village.' > Knowing this person to be a thorn, one should understand restraint and lack > of restraint. > "And what is lack of restraint? There is the case where a monk, seeing a > form with the eye, is obsessed with pleasing forms, is repelled by > unpleasing forms, and remains with body-mindfulness unestablished, with > limited awareness. He does not discern, as it actually is present, the > awareness-release, the discernment-release where any evil, unskillful mental > qualities that have arisen utterly cease without remainder. > > "Hearing a sound with the ear... > > "Smelling an aroma with the nose... > > "Tasting a flavor with the tongue... > > "Touching a tactile sensation with the body... > > "Cognizing an idea with the intellect, he is obsessed with pleasing ideas, > is repelled by unpleasing ideas, and remains with body-mindfulness > unestablished, with limited awareness. He does not discern, as it actually > is present, the awareness-release, the discernment-release where any evil, > unskillful mental qualities that have arisen utterly cease without > remainder. > > "Just as if a person, catching six animals of different ranges, of different > habitats, were to bind them with a strong rope. Catching a snake, he would > bind it with a strong rope. Catching a crocodile... a bird... a dog... a > hyena... a monkey, he would bind it with a strong rope. Binding them all > with a strong rope, and tying a knot in the middle, he would set chase to > them. > > "Then those six animals, of different ranges, of different habitats, would > each pull toward its own range &habitat. The snake would pull, thinking, > 'I'll go into the anthill.' The crocodile would pull, thinking, 'I'll go > into the water.' The bird would pull, thinking, 'I'll fly up into the air.' > The dog would pull, thinking, 'I'll go into the village.' The hyena would > pull, thinking, 'I'll go into the charnel ground.' The monkey would pull, > thinking, 'I'll go into the forest.' And when these six animals became > internally exhausted, they would submit, they would surrender, they would > come under the sway of whichever among them was the strongest. In the same > way, when a monk whose mindfulness immersed in the body is undeveloped & > unpursued, the eye pulls toward pleasing forms, while unpleasing forms are > repellent. The ear pulls toward pleasing sounds... The nose pulls toward > pleasing aromas... The tongue pulls toward pleasing flavors... The body > pulls toward pleasing tactile sensations... The intellect pulls toward > pleasing ideas, while unpleasing ideas are repellent. This, monks, is lack > of restraint. > > "And what is restraint? There is the case where a monk, seeing a form with > the eye, is not obsessed with pleasing forms, is not repelled by unpleasing > forms, and remains with body-mindfulness established, with immeasurable > awareness. He discerns, as it actually is present, the awareness-release, > the discernment-release where all evil, unskillful mental qualities that > have arisen utterly cease without remainder. > > "Hearing a sound with the ear... > > "Smelling an aroma with the nose... > > "Tasting a flavor with the tongue... > > "Touching a tactile sensation with the body... > > "Cognizing an idea with the intellect, he is not obsessed with pleasing > ideas, is not repelled by unpleasing ideas, and remains with > body-mindfulness established, with immeasurable awareness. He discerns, as > it actually is present, the awareness-release, the discernment-release where > all evil, unskillful mental qualities that have arisen utterly cease without > remainder. > > "Just as if a person, catching six animals of different ranges, of different > habitats, were to bind them with a strong rope. Catching a snake, he would > bind it with a strong rope. Catching a crocodile... a bird... a dog... a > hyena... a monkey, he would bind it with a strong rope. Binding them all > with a strong rope, he would tether them to a strong post or stake. > > "Then those six animals, of different ranges, of different habitats, would > each pull toward its own range &habitat. The snake would pull, thinking, > 'I'll go into the anthill.' The crocodile would pull, thinking, 'I'll go > into the water.' The bird would pull, thinking, 'I'll fly up into the air.' > The dog would pull, thinking, 'I'll go into the village.' The hyena would > pull, thinking, 'I'll go into the charnel ground.' The monkey would pull, > thinking, 'I'll go into the forest.' And when these six animals became > internally exhausted, they would stand, sit, or lie down right there next to > the post or stake. In the same way, when a monk whose mindfulness immersed > in the body is developed &pursued, the eye does not pull toward pleasing > forms, and unpleasing forms are not repellent. The ear does not pull toward > pleasing sounds... The nose does not pull toward pleasing aromas... The > tongue does not pull toward pleasing flavors... The body does not pull > toward pleasing tactile sensations... The intellect does not pull toward > pleasing ideas, and unpleasing ideas are not repellent. This, monks, is > restraint. > > "The 'strong post or stake' is a term for mindfulness immersed in the body. > > "Thus you should train yourselves: 'We will develop mindfulness immersed in > the body. We will pursue it, hand it the reins and take it as a basis, give > it a grounding. We will steady it, consolidate it, and set about it > properly.' That's how you should train yourselves." > 25098 From: Sarah Date: Mon Sep 8, 2003 0:50am Subject: address for Chinese CMA (Abhidammattha sangaha) Hi Icaro, --- icaro franca wrote: > I am interested, Sarah!!! .... Thx Icaro. I had a wager with Jon who thought that surely you wouldn’t be interested in the Chinese text of CMA. I suggested he just wait and see and on cue you write: ..... > Please do it as soon as possible, even if I can´t > be able to reply from October to next January!!! ..... ;-) Actually it’s very clearly produced and still has the Pali text. Good luck! ***** for free distribution: The Penang Buddhist Association 168, Anson road, 10400 Penang, Malaysia fax 04-2289987 ***** You wrote in another post (to me): > Great! > The Great Patthana and its Combinatory Analysis of > Paccayoti, Kusala and akusala dhammas and so on is > mesmerizing me .... someday I will get full dominion > of all its stanzas!!! > I will take a very clear path at boot camp: since > all reality comes from out us by sense-doors, so I > will take the firm decision to view all thse interplay > of nama and rupa, Citta and cetasika as a direct > linking of thoughts - like the Paticca-samuppada, > without the twisting an curling of personal opinions > and viewpoints: hetu-paccaya combining with akusala > sampayutta and rupadhamma and so on. ..... ;-) It’s good to appreciate that the namas and rupas at boot camp are no more or less real and to be known than those now, whilst listening to music or studying the texts. No self to view, just panna to understand and know them when there are conditions and without expectation. Just don’t start reciting Dhammasangani-pali in your sleep or you may get taken off to the boot camp hospital;-) Thanks so much for all your up-beat contributions here, Icaro. It’s a real treat to have you around, even when much of what you say goes over our heads as Christine said before;-) Metta, Sarah ====== 25099 From: Sarah Date: Mon Sep 8, 2003 1:33am Subject: Re: [dsg] the proximate cause of wisdom Hi Jim, (Robs M&K, Larry, Icaro & all), --- Jim Anderson wrote: > Hi Sarah, > > I just like to add that 'the four truths' is considered an alternative > proximate cause of wisdom (catusaccapada.t.thaana) to the more usual > samaadhipada.t.thaana according to some texts. References: Sv-p.t I > 92, Cp-a 281. From what I've seen so far I think B. Bodhi's 'wise > attention' is probably not supported by the texts. However, there is > no problem in seeing it as a necessary condition for wisdom. I agree > with the Atthasalini (p.63) that 'wise attention' is the (general) > proximate cause of any wholesome state including those accompanied by > knowledge or wisdom. Thanks for the quote from The Guide (Netti) which > I had overlooked. ..... Perhaps it’s a question of the precision of words here.There are quite a few passages in BB’s Guide sections that give a broader interpretation than is given in the commentary as discussed before. There is some discussion of this in the intro. This is why it’s useful to refer to the commentary itself as discussed before with Mike who also hadn’t realised that the Guide sections are only loosely based on it. Perhaps as I wrote too with the Netti refs, proximate cause (pada.t.thaana) can refer to ‘necessary condition’? In this case, the sutta ref RobK gave may be relevant. Also, AN111,68 “If they ask: ’And what, friends, is the cause and reason for the onon-arising of unarisen delusion, and for the abandoning of arisen delusion?’you should reply” Proper attention (yoniso manasikaara): for one who attends properly to things, unarisen delusion will not arise and arisen delusion will be abandoned.’” In ANX,61, we also read about yoniso manasikaara as the ‘nutriment of mindfulness and clear comprehension’. Perhaps BB’s note on p90 is based on such references.He also refers to the importance of it on p26 guide2. I understand your comments however. ***** > p.s. Yesterday, I got swarmed by some very nasty bees or wasps just > outside of my cottage and got stung twice. [..] > something bad happening in my forest paradise > . .... There are always challenges in any forest paradise;-)I’m glad Toby’s come to the rescue as I wouldn’t be much help. (Toby, hope you can join in our seclusion/solitary/forest cabin threads too;-)) Meanwhile city paradise here is facing potential problems with a planned 4 week music festival carnival on our doorstep, i.e right in front of our high-rise on a piece of vacant harbour-view land which was used for the 1997 hand-over ceremonies. So in addition to the Stones and Santana, there are another dozen bands coming for rehearsals and concerts (most of which I’ve never heard of) to show all you solitary dwellers what a great place Hong Kong is post-SARS. I’m only too aware of the fears and worries on my part on account of nothing that’s even happened yet;-( Fortunately we’ll be in Burma & Thailand for two weekends. I know this wouldn’t be your idea of a suitable house swap, Jim, but I thought maybe it would be a perfect swap for Icaro....he has 24hour live music and a Dhamma library and I have a couple of weeks of Brazilian boot camp and outdoor living;-) Metta, Sarah p.s Icaro, you’d have to entertain my students too, but that would be no problem for you;-) ====== 25100 From: Sarah Date: Mon Sep 8, 2003 2:54am Subject: Re: Supportive spiritual community of lay buddhists [Re: [dsg] Pali puzzles] Hi Jim, I hadn’t forgotten your earlier post, but have been considering some of the issues. Sometimes I get distracted on other threads and sometimes I just like to leave certain threads on the back-burner for a while..... ..... --- Jim Anderson wrote: > I have since found some more interesting details on this in the > subcty. to Buddhappiya's Mahaaruupasiddhi (a Pali grammatical > treatise). The threefold saasana is ultimately grounded on skilfulness > in the 41 Pali letters (including grammar) for when this exist there > is the understanding of pariyatti (the tipi.taka with the > a.t.thakathaa-s). .... This touches an area that is very difficult for me to appreciate. Perhaps it should also be read in the light of yoniso manasikaara (wise attention)? We know there can be Pali and Abhidhamma scholars who still miss the essence of the teachings and that wisdom cannot be equated with degree of these kinds of knowledge. So even pariyatti is more than just book knowledge. I think the point, however, is that as the scriptural knowledge and availability declines, so does the threefold sasana. I’m, just thinking about the vinaya rule about the importance of the correct pronunciation of Pali in order for the ordinations to be valid and the reasons for this rule. I’ve also been reflecting on the third Patisambhida (discrimination)- niruttipa.tisambhidaa (discrimination of language) since Larry (?) raised it. Sv15,387 (Pali), 1946 (Eng) “Thus this Discrimination of Language comes to have sound as its object, not a concept as its object.” We read that all Buddhas use the same language, the only one which doesn’t change: “Also the Enlightened One, in announcing the Buddha word of the Tipitaka, did so only in the Magadha tongue. Why? Because in this way it is easy to deduce the meaning; since the only delay for the buddha word announced in the text in the magadha tongue is that occurring when coming to the ears of those who have attained the Discriminations; but when the ear is merely impinged upon, the meaning appears in a hundred ways, in a thousand ways. But a text announced in another tongue has to be learnt by repeated application. But there is no reaching the discrimination for an ordinary man, even if he has learnt much; and there is no noble disciple who has not reached the Discriminations” [see also VismX1V,25] The last line puzzles me. As Nina always reminds us, only some arahants had these discriminations. Not now. There are degrees and the chief disciples had them to a greater degree than other disciples which is why Sariputta could listen to the Abhidhamma in brief and immediately comprehend it in detail. Sv 387(Pali- last para),1949 (English) is difficult and has been raised before- the children speaking the Magadha language. Are these Bodhisattas? Nina, Mike, Jim - any comments? ..... >This is great as it really underscores the > worthwhileness of studying and gaining expertise in Pali. Pa.tipatti > (practice) is the threefold training and pa.tivedha (penetration) is > the attainment of the nine lokuttara dhammas. Pa.tivedha seems to be > interchangeable with adhigama. .... Yes, but I think we have to be careful about how we use the word ‘studying’. I’m not sure that it is just ‘skill’ and ‘study’ as we use these conventionally that is referred to. I think we always have to read these phrases in the light of the entire teaching on satipatthana. What do you think, Jim? .... > Perhaps the dhutadhammas should be better regarded as ascetic > qualities or principles instead of practices as in the 13 dhutangas. > http://www.palikanon.com/english/wtb/b_f/dhutaanga.htm .... Again, I think the mental states involved are the key as we saw in Bahiya’s case of deluded simple living combined with strong conceit. From your helpful link, I think this is a fair summary: “Since the moral quality of any action depends entirely upon the accompanying intention and volition, this is also the case with these ascetic practices, as is expressly stated in Vis.M. Thus the mere external performance is not the real exercise, as it is said (Pug. 275-84): "Some one might be going for alms; etc. out of stupidity and foolishness - or with evil intention and filled with desires - or out of insanity and mental derangement - or because such practice had been praised by the Noble Ones...." These exercises are, however properly observed "if they are taken up only for the sake of frugality, of contentedness, of purity, etc."(App.)” [big snip only because we can’t discuss everything in every post;-)] ..... > I'm glad to have seen that there has been at least some interest shown > by you and a few others. I suspect that solitary living in a forest > hermitage will remain only of interest to a very small number of us, > whether or not we are involved in Buddhism. ..... Regardless of any personal inclinations, I think we can all learn a lot from really considering the meanings of these terms related to solitary dwelling and references to roots of tree and so on. We can also learn a lot from reflecting on the rules for the monks regarding ‘fewness of wishes’ and so on and their relevance to our present mental states. I greatly appreciate your raising all of these, Jim. (Did you see that the phrase ‘pa.tisalliinassa’ was used for ‘who was in seclusion, who was solitary’ referring to Bahiya living physically alone.)Of course, it wasn’t the living alone as such but his erroneous views and mana that were the problem. ..... I think that this kind of > living has many advantages and offers a practical long-term solution > for some, especially in a Western society. One great advantage is that > it gives one a lot of free time to pursue such things as studying Pali > or developing samatha as these do require a lot of time, effort, and > patience. And as I said earlier simple solitary living is suitable for > one who has the temperament for it. .... I suspect Toby will have much to contribute on this subject too. We know already he’s a wasp expert and lives in a cabin;-) We certainly envy all your free time over the years. It is hard to open texts when, like Jon, you’re in meetings and drafting legislation all day every day, year after year, decade after decade;-). On the other hand, I don’t think either of us agree that this kind of complicated non-solitary daily lifestyle is any obstacle for developing satipatthana or other kinds of wholesome states, including samatha in the beginning - especially as all these depend primarily on right understanding (panna) of one kind or other. I think if we consider daily life objects of samatha such as reflection on the Dhamma, the Buddha’s qualities, metta, death and so on, we can appreciate why panna rather than time and effort are the keys to the arising of wholesome states. I’d be glad to hear any further reflections you have, Jim and I think it works well to just pick and choose parts for response (if any!)without any obligations. I think we’re also both trying to avoid pulling out too many texts;-) Metta, Sarah p.s I have BB’s transl of M1(Mulapariyaya) w/comy, but still not sure which part you were referring to. I’m sure I’m being dense. ====== 25101 From: Sarah Date: Mon Sep 8, 2003 3:15am Subject: Re: [dsg] Welcomes for Susan Hi Susan, you wrote: ---------------- > > I won't run away Sara lol! I think last time I just wasn't ready > so felt a bit overwhelmed with my own lack of understanding which made > me > feel a bit ignorant. However, the fact is I am ignorant and with that > realisation I now feel ready to study the Dharma as opposed to reading > it > like a book which I hadn't actually realised I was doing. ..... I thought of you when I just mentioned 'studying' in another post. I think it's the considering and reflecting of the Dhamma read that is most helpful. I agree with your comments that there's a lot of ignorance to learn about - more and more to discover;-) Remember, they are just mental states, not 'me' or 'you'. ..... > Thanks for the welcome.......... thank you to everyone for the warm > welcome, and thank you Rob for giving me a place to start. I did have a > look at the Abhidhamma and felt it was a bit complex for me at this > time, > so went to your suggested link Nina's "Buddhism in Daily Life", and > found > the Beginners section which I just what I need. Thanks Rob!! .... I hope you can follow his slide series too. These can be found in the files if you wish to review them: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/ I'm glad you're finding Nina's BDL helpful and presumably this is the Beginners section at Zolag? If there are any paragraphs you find particularly helpful or puzzling, maybe you can share them here for discussion. We'd all be glad. In the files too, under 'Useful Posts', you may like to look at the sections: Abhidhamma for beginners and New to the list and new to Dhamma. Click on the highlighted numbers to read the past posts in these sections. I may have mentioned this before. Also, there's a very simple Pali glossary you may wish to print out and have next to your computer: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/Glossary_of_pali_terms You also mentioned the Four Noble Truths. A very difficult subject. Please raise anything -perhaps the truth of dukkha first. Do you live in England? I knew A.Sumedho (who you mentioned) when he first came to live in England in the 70s and settled in a house converted into a vihara near where I lived in Hampstead, London. I appreciated the contact and his friendly open manner very much. Look forward to hearing any of your comments and qus (none too simple;-)) Metta, Sarah ===== 25102 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Sep 8, 2003 3:49am Subject: Pali and Sanskrit Dear Kom, Sarah, Rob K On Pali list we had the issue whether it is an offence for a monk to use language other than Pali when explaining the Dhamma. There was a Vinaya text, Vinaya II.139 = Culavagga V.33.1. > "na, > bhikkhave, buddhavacana.m chandaso aaropetabba.m. Yo aaropeyya, > aapatti dukka.tassa. Anujaanaami, bhikkhave, sakaaya niruttiyaa > buddhavacana.m pariyaapu.nitun"ti. Chandaso is vedic. The Vinaya relates an incident where two monks complained to the Buddha that other monks of various origins were distorting the Buddha's Teaching in using their own dialect (sakya niruttiy) and proposed that the Teaching be transmitted in Vedic verse (chandaso). The Buddha refused and declared: 'I allow you, monks, to learn the Buddha Word in your own dialect (sakaaya niruttiyaa).' > N: thus, not Vedic. What is Vedic? It is Hindu. But allowed is: own dialect. Waht is it? Many different languages. One of the teachers gave the following text: The Ara.na,vibhanga Sutta says: M 139.12 'You should not cling to a regional language; you should not reject common usage.' So it is said. In what connection is this said? How, monks, is there clinging to a regional language and reject-ion of common usage? Here, monks, in different regions, they call a "bowl" paati, patta, vittha, seraava, dhaaropa, po.na or pisiila. So whatever they call it in such and such a region, they speak accordingly, firmly adhering (to the words) and insisting, 'Only this is right; anything else is wrong.' This is how, monks, there is clinging to a regional language and reject-ion of common usage. And how, monks, is there no clinging to a regional language and no reject-ion of common usage?[1] Here, monks, in different regions, they call a "bowl" paati, [235] patta, vittha, seraava, dhaaropa, po.na or pisiila. So whatever they call it in such and such a region, without adhering (to the words), one speaks accordingly. This is how, monks, there is no clinging to a regional language and no reject-ion of common usage. So it is with reference to this that it is said, 'You should not cling to a regional language; you should not reject common usage.'> Nina: Now, I have heard in Thailand that it is an offense for a monk to use non pali terms for dhamma. I do not know whether the Vinaya has other texts about this. I mentioned that Ven. Nyanatiloka uses: karma, nirvana and was wondering about this. Is it perhaps in the Peg sutta, I could not find this one. Rob K and Sarah quoted this, it is about the decline of the teachings, preferring poetical language to the scriptures. What is even more: we read in a Siam Society Journal (did not keep it, is it on line now?) that twice in history a group of Thai monks went to Sri Lanka to be reordained, because the pronunciation of the Pali of the rituals was not correct in Thailand. I would not know how to find out the correct pronunciation, is it possible to know? I corresponded with Rob K about this long ago. The late Phra Dhammadharo was also reordained in Sri Lanka for this reason. It may seem too puritan, but I think there must be reasons behind it. He must have considered this very seriously, having known him as very conscientious. Maybe Jonothan knows more. It is quite a step to be reordained. I think it all stems from true concern to keep the teachings intact after they were rehearsed at the three Councils. Perhaps there is more in the Co to the Vinaya. I hope one of you can help me with more info. Could perhaps Kom find out about Thai sources, or Jaran? Nina. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 25103 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Sep 8, 2003 3:49am Subject: Re: [dsg] sanna and vipassana Hi Larry, op 07-09-2003 07:57 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > Would you say contemplation/mindfulness (anupassana) is applied thought > and sustained thought (vitakka vicaara)? N: they are different cetasikas performing different functions. Vitakka helps panna in hitting upon the object so that panna can understand it. Sati is non-forgetful of the object. Nina. 25104 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Sep 8, 2003 3:49am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism. XIV, 12 Hi Larry, op 07-09-2003 21:41 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > infinite space, infinite consciousness, nothingness, nether > perception nor non perception. I don't know why these are not included > in the tabulations of this paragraph. Nina??? N: Because they are the same type of citta accompanied by the same cetasikas as the fifth and highest stage of rupa-jhana, material jhana. Nina. 25105 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Sep 8, 2003 3:49am Subject: Re: [dsg] Finally !!! Dear Icaro, op 07-09-2003 20:51 schreef icaro franca op icarofranca@y...: > But, since you mention French... are there > versions of the Visuddhimagga in this language online N: I have not heard about this, I do not know much about online. Nina. 25106 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Sep 8, 2003 3:49am Subject: Re: [dsg] vis 8, continuation Hi Larry, Yes. The Subco dealls with this now, and does not return to it later on. Nina. op 07-09-2003 23:17 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > It is the end of the Chapter on > Purification by Knowledge and Vision beginning with "The seeing of > nibbana at the first path is "realizing as seeing." in Ven.~Nanamoli"s > trans. 25107 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Sep 8, 2003 3:49am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism. XIV, 12 Hi Larry, op 07-09-2003 08:18 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > Could you explain or give an example that illustrates how or why > understanding is accompanied by joy or equanimity (pleasant mental > feeling and neutral mental feeling)? Why isn't understanding accompanied > by unpleasant mental feeling? N: Never by unpleasant feeling, because this accompanies only the akusala cittas rooted in dosa. Pleasant mental feeling can accompany akusala citta rooted in lobha, neutral mental feeling can accompany akusala citta rooted in lobha and in moha. pleasant mental feeling and neutral Mental feeling can accompany sobhana citta (including kusala citta, vipakacitta, kiriyacitta), and these can be accompanied by panna or unaccompanied by panna. Example: you may study now the Dhamma and see its usefulness, but you do not each moment have happy feeling about it. We cannot be enthusiastic (piti, with happy feeling) from early morning to late at evening. It depends on conditions. Nina 25108 From: rjkjp1 Date: Mon Sep 8, 2003 3:54am Subject: Re: Pali and Sanskrit Dear Nina, This is really interesting and explains a very tricky passage . Thanks you with respect Robertk--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > Dear Kom, Sarah, Rob K > On Pali list we had the issue whether it is an offence for a monk to use > language other than Pali when explaining the Dhamma. There was a Vinaya > text, Vinaya II.139 = Culavagga V.33.1. > > "na, > > bhikkhave, buddhavacana.m chandaso aaropetabba.m. Yo aaropeyya, > > aapatti dukka.tassa. Anujaanaami, bhikkhave, sakaaya niruttiyaa > > buddhavacana.m pariyaapu.nitun"ti. > Chandaso is vedic. > The Vinaya relates an incident where two monks complained to the Buddha > that other monks of various origins were distorting the Buddha's Teaching in > using their own dialect (sakya niruttiy) and proposed that the Teaching be > transmitted in Vedic verse (chandaso). The Buddha refused and declared: 'I > allow you, monks, to learn the Buddha Word in your own dialect (sakaaya > niruttiyaa).' > > N: thus, not Vedic. What is Vedic? It is Hindu. But allowed is: own dialect. > Waht is it? Many different languages. > One of the teachers gave the following text: > The Ara.na,vibhanga Sutta says: > > M 139.12 > > 'You should not cling to a regional language; you should not reject > common usage.' So it is said. In what connection is this said? > > How, monks, is there clinging to a regional language and reject-ion of > common usage? > > Here, monks, in different regions, they call a "bowl" paati, patta, > vittha, seraava, dhaaropa, po.na or pisiila. So whatever they call it in > such and such a region, they speak accordingly, firmly adhering (to the > words) and insisting, 'Only this is right; anything else is wrong.' > > This is how, monks, there is clinging to a regional language and > reject-ion of common usage. > > And how, monks, is there no clinging to a regional language and no > reject-ion of common usage?[1] > > Here, monks, in different regions, they call a "bowl" paati, [235] > patta, vittha, seraava, dhaaropa, po.na or pisiila. So whatever they call it > in such and such a region, without adhering (to the words), one speaks > accordingly. > > This is how, monks, there is no clinging to a regional language and > no reject-ion of common usage. > > So it is with reference to this that it is said, 'You should not cling > to a regional language; you should not reject common usage.'> > > Nina: Now, I have heard in Thailand that it is an offense for a monk to use > non pali terms for dhamma. I do not know whether the Vinaya has other texts > about this. I mentioned that Ven. Nyanatiloka uses: karma, nirvana and was > wondering about this. > Is it perhaps in the Peg sutta, I could not find this one. Rob K and Sarah > quoted this, it is about the decline of the teachings, preferring poetical > language to the scriptures. > What is even more: we read in a Siam Society Journal (did not keep it, is it > on line now?) that twice in history a group of Thai monks went to Sri Lanka > to be reordained, because the pronunciation of the Pali of the rituals was > not correct in Thailand. I would not know how to find out the correct > pronunciation, is it possible to know? I corresponded with Rob K about this > long ago. The late Phra Dhammadharo was also reordained in Sri Lanka for > this reason. It may seem too puritan, but I think there must be reasons > behind it. He must have considered this very seriously, having known him as > very conscientious. Maybe Jonothan knows more. It is quite a step to be > reordained. > I think it all stems from true concern to keep the teachings intact after > they were rehearsed at the three Councils. Perhaps there is more in the Co > to the Vinaya. > I hope one of you can help me with more info. Could perhaps Kom find out > about Thai sources, or Jaran? > Nina. > 25109 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Sep 8, 2003 3:49am Subject: Re: [dsg] Demystifying/understanding nama and rupa Dear Nori, op 07-09-2003 04:52 schreef norakat147 op nori_public@a...: > > According to the PTS dictionary: nama in its most primitive form > is 'name'; likewise rupa is defined as 'form'; thus name and form.....> > How is it that 'name' has become - mental phenomena ? > How is it that 'form' has become - physical phenomena ? > How is it that these definitions were implied? Nina: Right, nama has different meanings depending on the context. It can mean name, it is also used to emphhasize words: indeed, truly. When used together with rupa: it is as you also found: mental phenomena. The four nama khandhas. Rupa is often transl as form, but is is actually materiality, physical phenomena. But sometimes it stands for visible object, that is why form is used. The transl. nama and form for nama and rupa may be confusing. Nama: as said, it can be name. The Expositor gives an explanation for the meaning of mental phenomenon: namati: it bends, it bends towards an object, it experiences an object (Expositor II, P. 501), or the four nama khandhas cause one another to bend on to the object. preceding to this there is a para about name giving which is difficult to understand for me. Anyway, here in the Vis mental phenomena and physical phenomena are meant. The first stage of insight is: naama-ruupa-paricheda-~naa.na : distinguishing nama from rupa. Nori: rupa is: objectively existing unconscious physical matter as it truly > exists (with or without our conciousness/perception of it). (?) Nina: yes, but it exists only for a moment and then falls away. Its existing does not have to depend on our experiencing, in fact, it has to arise shortly before the nama that experiences it. Rupa is weak at its arising moment and can then not be object of experience. Nori: nama is: our mental representation/memory/interpretation/symbol/idea > of the percieved rupa through the senses. (???) Nina: the four khandhas are nama. Citta experiences an object. The other three khandhas are the cetasikas accompanying citta. You say, The idea itself is a concept, citta can think of. A concept is not nama nor is it rupa. We can think of realities , nama and rupa, and we can also think of what is not real in the ultimate sense: concept. Citta can think of anything, no matter true or not true. Nina. 25110 From: susan macqueen Date: Mon Sep 8, 2003 5:27am Subject: Re: [dsg] Welcomes for Susan Hi Sarah, "I think it's the considering and reflecting of the Dhamma read that is most helpful. " ---------- Yes I agree........my problem is I have always tried to run before I could walk, however I'm working on that one. I do feel at present I am being a little more mindful of my thoughts and where they take me, and if they are not such good thoughts I do try and notice, but it's very difficult to grasp sometimes as my big ego has led me most of my life. I was wondering if you could tell me the meaning of Om Mani Padme Hum Hrih........I have seen other Mantra's but I don't know what any of them mean, I also don't know if meditating on a Mantra is a good way for a beginner! I did read somewhere that the idea of a Mantra was to recite this as and when, or whatever your doing and the longer you recite the Mantra a meaning will come to you. Is this right? I would be grateful if anyone has any advices. Thanks Susan ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sarah" To: Sent: Monday, September 08, 2003 11:15 AM Subject: Re: [dsg] Welcomes for Susan > Hi Susan, > > you wrote: > ---------------- > > > > I won't run away Sara lol! I think last time I just wasn't ready > > so felt a bit overwhelmed with my own lack of understanding which made > > me > > feel a bit ignorant. However, the fact is I am ignorant and with that > > realisation I now feel ready to study the Dharma as opposed to reading > > it > > like a book which I hadn't actually realised I was doing. > ..... > I thought of you when I just mentioned 'studying' in another post. I think > it's the considering and reflecting of the Dhamma read that is most > helpful. I agree with your comments that there's a lot of ignorance to > learn about - more and more to discover;-) Remember, they are just mental > states, not 'me' or 'you'. > ..... > > Thanks for the welcome.......... thank you to everyone for the warm > > welcome, and thank you Rob for giving me a place to start. I did have a > > look at the Abhidhamma and felt it was a bit complex for me at this > > time, > > so went to your suggested link Nina's "Buddhism in Daily Life", and > > found > > the Beginners section which I just what I need. Thanks Rob!! > .... > I hope you can follow his slide series too. These can be found in the > files if you wish to review them: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/ > > I'm glad you're finding Nina's BDL helpful and presumably this is the > Beginners section at Zolag? If there are any paragraphs you find > particularly helpful or puzzling, maybe you can share them here for > discussion. We'd all be glad. > > In the files too, under 'Useful Posts', you may like to look at the > sections: Abhidhamma for beginners and New to the list and new to Dhamma. > Click on the highlighted numbers to read the past posts in these sections. > I may have mentioned this before. Also, there's a very simple Pali > glossary you may wish to print out and have next to your computer: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/Glossary_of_pali_terms > > You also mentioned the Four Noble Truths. A very difficult subject. Please > raise anything -perhaps the truth of dukkha first. > > Do you live in England? I knew A.Sumedho (who you mentioned) when he first > came to live in England in the 70s and settled in a house converted into a > vihara near where I lived in Hampstead, London. I appreciated the contact > and his friendly open manner very much. > > Look forward to hearing any of your comments and qus (none too simple;-)) > > Metta, > > Sarah > ===== 25111 From: icaro franca Date: Mon Sep 8, 2003 5:43am Subject: Re: [dsg] address for Chinese CMA (Abhidammattha sangaha) Dear Sarah: ---------------------------------------------------- Sarah:" ;-) > Actually it’s very clearly produced and still has > the Pali text. Good > luck! > ***** > for free distribution: > > The Penang Buddhist Association > 168, Anson road, > 10400 Penang, > Malaysia > > fax 04-2289987 > *****" ----------------------------------------------------- Gooda!!!!!!! ---------------------------------------------------- Sarah:" You wrote in another post (to me):(...) ;-) It’s good to appreciate that the namas and rupas > at boot camp are no > more or less real and to be known than those now, > whilst listening to > music or studying the texts. No self to view, just > panna to understand and > know them when there are conditions and without > expectation. > > Just don’t start reciting Dhammasangani-pali in your > sleep or you may get > taken off to the boot camp hospital;-)" ----------------------------------------------------- Hahah!!! Kamma plays on tricky pieces!!! I was yesterday trying to print the Dhammasanganipali copy I have got at one Cybercafé´s printer (mine is out of order!)...when this came also out of order! I could only put in ink and paper the first 22 stanzas of Dhammasangani´s Mattika. At least I will get something interesting to read before sleep, besides H.H. Dalai Lama Audiobooks! ------------------------------------------------------- Sarah:" Thanks so much for all your up-beat contributions > here, Icaro. It’s a real > treat to have you around, even when much of what you > say goes over our > heads as Christine said before;-)" ------------------------------------------------------- So you and Chris have got less than five feet of height...hahahahahahahahahahahahah!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Mettaya, Ícaro > Sarah > ====== ===== Seize the time, there´s only minutes left to zero Just got a little taste, I gotta get some more, Just me and you 25112 From: Sarah Date: Mon Sep 8, 2003 5:56am Subject: Re: [dsg] Welcomes for Susan Hi Susan, --- susan macqueen wrote: > Yes I agree........my problem is I have always tried to run before I > could > walk, however I'm working on that one. I do feel at present I am being > a > little more mindful of my thoughts and where they take me, and if they > are > not such good thoughts I do try and notice, but it's very difficult to > grasp > sometimes as my big ego has led me most of my life. .... A common problem;-) ..... > > I was wondering if you could tell me the meaning of Om Mani Padme Hum > Hrih........I have seen other Mantra's but I don't know what any of them > mean, ..... Sorry, I've no idea. Mike might be able to help... ..... I also don't know if meditating on a Mantra is a good way for a > beginner! I did read somewhere that the idea of a Mantra was to recite > this > as and when, or whatever your doing and the longer you recite the Mantra > a > meaning will come to you. Is this right? ..... You could be reciting for a long while I'd think, but let us know if it does.... Sorry not to help here, metta, Sarah ====== 25113 From: icaro franca Date: Mon Sep 8, 2003 6:06am Subject: Re: [dsg] the proximate cause of wisdom Dear Sarah: Sarah: " but I thought maybe > it would be a perfect swap for Icaro....he has > 24hour live music and a > Dhamma library and I have a couple of weeks of > Brazilian boot camp and > outdoor living;-) > > Metta, > > Sarah > p.s Icaro, you’d have to entertain my students too, > but that would be no > problem for you;-)" ---------------------------------------------------- My only concern now is what I will carry on with me to boot camp: again the Buddhist monk´s only nine objects - three robes, toothbrush, bowl, staff, fan, shaving blade and Tiger Balm...hahahahahahahahahah!!!! Anyway I will really miss the discussions and dhamma talking here the dsg. Sorry Sarah, but I find Connie´s talkies and commentaries DELICIOUS !!!! And I will try to keep a Dhamma Diary, that I will post here to all you members: - Will Cetasika play a tricky role at Citta realms ? - Shall I keep my strong purpose don´t reciting the Dhammasangani while sleeping ? - Shall I manage to keep vipassana while jogging, jumping, marching and firing ? - Shall I survive the boot camp ? Questions, questions, questioms... Stay Tuned for more Dhamma Days!!!!! Mettaya, Ícaro ===== Seize the time, there´s only minutes left to zero Just got a little taste, I gotta get some more, Just me and you 25114 From: Sarah Date: Mon Sep 8, 2003 6:07am Subject: Re: [dsg] address for Chinese CMA (Abhidammattha sangaha) Hi Icaro, --- icaro franca wrote: > Hahah!!! Kamma plays on tricky pieces!!! > I was yesterday trying to print the > Dhammasanganipali copy I have got at one Cybercafé´s > printer (mine is out of order!)...when this came also > out of order! I could only put in ink and paper the > first 22 stanzas of Dhammasangani´s Mattika. > At least I will get something interesting to read > before sleep, besides H.H. Dalai Lama Audiobooks! > > ------------------------------------------------------- Maybe, just maybe Dhammasanganipali is too much for the printers to handle;-) Perhaps you'll be able to learn the first 22 stanzas to recite in between the Audiobooks.... If you find another printer that is still working in Rio, you might also download the first couple of chapters of Nina's 'Abhidhamma in Daily Life' to take. I think you'd find it very useful if you've not read it. I'd send you a hard copy if there was time, but there isn't. ..... > So you and Chris have got less than five feet of > height...hahahahahahahahahahahahah!!!!!!!!!!!!!! .... In my case it's almost right - I'm very height challenged;-) Metta, Sarah ====== 25115 From: Antony Woods Date: Mon Sep 8, 2003 6:51am Subject: Free-will (Was Kamma) Hello Christine, Rob K and all, I transcribed the following quote from Thanissaro Bhikkhu: "The Buddha's teachings on karma are interesting because it's a combination of causality and free-will. If things were totally caused there would be no way you could develop a skill - your actions would be totally predetermined. If there was no causality at all skills would be useless because things would be constantly changing without any kind of rhyme or reason to them. But it's because there is an element of causality and because there is this element of free-will you can develop skills in life. You ask yourself what is involved in developing a skill? - it means being sensitive to three things basically: one is being sensitive to causes coming from the past one is being sensitive to what you're doing in the present moment and the third is being sensitive to the results of what you're doing in the present moment - how these three things come together." (from his talk "Questions/Not-self" at http://www.audiodharma.org This quote from the Buddha seems to suggest free-will: "Having approached the priests & contemplatives who hold that... whatever a person experiences... is all caused by what was done in the past,' I said to them: 'Is it true that you hold that... whatever a person experiences... is all caused by what was done in the past?' Thus asked by me, they admitted, 'Yes.' Then I said to them, 'Then in that case, a person is a killer of living beings because of what was done in the past. A person is a thief... unchaste... a liar... a divisive speaker... a harsh speaker... an idle chatterer... greedy... malicious... a holder of wrong views because of what was done in the past.' When one falls back on what was done in the past as being essential, monks, there is no desire, no effort [at the thought], 'This should be done. This shouldn't be done.' http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an03-061.html I read some of the "Useful Posts" on free-will. I believe that the Patthana would explain things if I could access and understand it. What does it mean that new kamma is conditioned if not by the past? Thanks / Antony. 25116 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Mon Sep 8, 2003 9:20am Subject: Re: Kamma (Was re: Bahiya5) Hi Christine and all, Have you ever considered that the Buddha's teaching is not about seeing all beings, including yourself, as 'functionally unified combinations of the five aggregates'?? The Buddha's teaching is not about what a being is. It is not about seeing yourself thus: "I am a functionally unified combinations of the five aggregates." Seeing self as a functionally unified combinations of the five aggregates is seeing with self-view. Regarding the topic on kamma, this is how I understand it: The principle of kamma is simple: wholesome actions lead to good results, unwholesome actions lead to bad results. Seeing thus one would aspire to wholesome actions and avoid unwholesome action. What is complex is the phenomenon of kamma. A game can have a simple set of rules; however, the ramification of the rules can be complex. Simple patterns can give rise to complex phenomena. Peace, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Hello Antony, > 25117 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Sep 8, 2003 10:35am Subject: Pali and sanskrit Dear Sarah and friends, Dimitri interprated the etxts differently. He explained that the sutta text : This passage refers to rendering of wordly terms in communication with lay followers. The fact that it is emphasized may indicate that the monks were overly zealous in speaking only Pali in all circumstances and on all occasion, whereas wordly terms should told to lay followers in their own language. He quoted an article by Geiger about the Vinaya passage: Well, this reference is false. In the PLL (Pali Literature and Language), on pages 6-7, Wilhelm Geiger voices exactly the opposite: "If Pali is the form of Magadhi used by the Buddha, then the Pali canon would have to be regarded as the most authentic form of the Buddhavacanam, even though the teachings of the master might have been preached and learnt from the very beginning in the various provinces of India in the respective local dialects. The conclusion has been drawn -- wrongly, in my opinion, -- from Culavagga V.33.1 = Vin II.139. Here it is related, how two Bhikkhus complained to the master that the members of the order were of various origins, and that they distorted the words of Buddha by their own dialect (sakaaya niruttiyaa). They therefore proposed that the words of Buddha should be translated into Sanskrit verses (chandaso). Buddha however refused to grant the request and added: anujaanaami bhikkhave sakaaya niruttiyaa buddhavacanam pariyaapu.nitum. Rhys Davids and Oldenberg translate this passage by 'I allow you, oh brethren, to learn the words of the Buddha each in his own dialect.' This interpretation however is not in harmony with that of Buddhaghosa, according to whom it has to be translated by "I ordain the words of Buddha to be learnt in _his_ own language (i.e.Magadhi, the language used by Buddha himself)." After repeated examination of this passage I have come to the conclusion that we have to stick to the explanation given by Buddhaghosa. Neither the two monks or the Buddha himself could have thought of preaching in different cases in different dialects. Here the question is merely whether the words of Buddha migth be translated into Sanskrit or not. This is however clearly forbidden by the Master, at first negatively and then positively by the injunction beginning with 'anujaanaami'. The real meaning of this injunction is, as is also best in consonance with Indian spirit, that there can be no other form of the words of Buddha than in which the Master himself had preched. Thus even in the life-time of Buddha people were concerned about the way in which the teaching might be handed down as accurately as possible, both in form and in content. How much more must have been the anxiety of the disciples after his death! The external form was however Magadhi, thought according to tradition it is Pali."> I mentioned pronunciation of Pali: I remember the Buddha telling the monks about chanting not to chant in a certain way: drawing out voices long, etc. I cannot remember where. This may give a clue to pronunciation. Nina. 25118 From: connie Date: Mon Sep 8, 2003 10:56am Subject: Re: dsgn, rupa and Pali accents Dear Nina, Most excellent! Thank you so much for the section from Mahaaraahulovaadasutta and the funny symbols. I'll have to go back and look for your Pali posts on that sutta later on. Now, I'm reading Piya's trilinear DN 22 and putting off my trip to the library (all of 4 blocks!) for a Bonehead Grammar book. Vocabulary eventually sinks in, but those rules just keep floating off. I don't know if I have the whole Velthuis list, but the symbols I have now are: 1/4 = .l 1.2 = .m 3/4 = Aa superscripted: 0 = .n 1 = .d 2 = ii 3 = uu combined +_ = aa u w/long tail in front = .t Plus the Spanish ~n of course, but it looks as expected on my screen. peace, connie 25119 From: connie Date: Mon Sep 8, 2003 11:52am Subject: Re: the proximate cause of wisdom Dear Jim, May I add to wear white or other light colored cotton clothes and to avoid dark colors and wool when you deal with the bees. You might want to stuff your pant legs into your socks or tie off the bottom of them down around your boots. Maybe gloves with rubber bands around your sleeves. Something to tie onto your head and have hanging down. Not sure what to suggest for a veil. If you are stung, it is better to brush the stinger out/off than to pull it out, which squeezes the poison sack. Also, something about the smell of one sting attracts others, so bravery is not a good course. They say beekeepers acquire an immunity to the stings and don't think anything more of them than a slight scratch. Wasps, I think, bite rather than sting. You might put a piece of wood or something in front of their door if you relocate them. They won't recognize it and should mark it when they come out to be able to know where they are supposed to return to, but expect a few of the bad boys to come back looking for their old house. Also, early morning while they're still sleeping is ok for moving them and maybe not as scary as night time. best wishes, connie 25120 From: Jim Anderson Date: Mon Sep 8, 2003 11:59am Subject: Re: [dsg] the proximate cause of wisdom Hi Toby, Thank-you for your helpful suggestion. There's no hive to be found under the eaves and I'm afraid it's not going to be easy to find. The swarming incident occurred while I was cutting a small shrub in a thicket area and I may have accidentally disturbed the nest/hive in the process. I will be looking around in this area first but it is hard to see through all the foliage with my poor eyesight and if I start poking around in there I could get the bees/wasps all fired up again! With your suggestion I thought it might be better to look for the nest at night with a light while they are asleep. Winter is also approaching and that means they will soon be going into hibernation which should help. With appreciation, Jim > > p.s. Yesterday, I got swarmed by some very nasty bees or wasps just > > outside of my cottage and got stung twice. I also got stung two weeks > > ago and I had up until then only been stung once in my life. I think > > there may be a nest nearby or under the cottage (worst case scenario) > > and I just hate the thought of having to deal with this problem, any > > suggestions? > > Hi Jim, > > If you can locate the hive, one thing you can do is wait till the night when the bees/wasps are inactive, then place the hive in a plastic bag and transport it somewhere else. The hive can be moved this way because it's something they build and live inside. At my cabin they often build them under eaves. I don't know if moving the hive this way is "fair game" from a kammic perspective, but that's the best solution I've been able to come up with. > > Metta, > > Toby 25121 From: Gayan Karunaratne Date: Mon Sep 8, 2003 0:04pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Pali and sanskrit Dear Nina, Thanks for the excerpt, I never knew about this 'sanskrit-suggestion' before. "I mentioned pronunciation of Pali: I remember the Buddha telling the monks about chanting not to chant in a certain way: drawing out voices long, etc. I cannot remember where." This is in vinaya - a related document is here -> http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/wheels/wheel206/chanting.html "Thus even in the life-time of Buddha people were concerned about the way in which the teaching might be handed down as accurately as possible, both in form and in content. How much more must have been the anxiety of the disciples after his death! " well , we all agree that they were an intelligent bunch , :-) Regards, ----- Original Message ----- From: nina van gorkom To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, September 08, 2003 1:35 PM Subject: [dsg] Pali and sanskrit Dear Sarah and friends, Dimitri interprated the etxts differently. He explained that the sutta text : This passage refers to rendering of wordly terms in communication with lay followers. The fact that it is emphasized may indicate that the monks were overly zealous in speaking only Pali in all circumstances and on all occasion, whereas wordly terms should told to lay followers in their own language. He quoted an article by Geiger about the Vinaya passage: Well, this reference is false. In the PLL (Pali Literature and Language), on pages 6-7, Wilhelm Geiger voices exactly the opposite: "If Pali is the form of Magadhi used by the Buddha, then the Pali canon would have to be regarded as the most authentic form of the Buddhavacanam, even though the teachings of the master might have been preached and learnt from the very beginning in the various provinces of India in the respective local dialects. The conclusion has been drawn -- wrongly, in my opinion, -- from Culavagga V.33.1 = Vin II.139. Here it is related, how two Bhikkhus complained to the master that the members of the order were of various origins, and that they distorted the words of Buddha by their own dialect (sakaaya niruttiyaa). They therefore proposed that the words of Buddha should be translated into Sanskrit verses (chandaso). Buddha however refused to grant the request and added: anujaanaami bhikkhave sakaaya niruttiyaa buddhavacanam pariyaapu.nitum. Rhys Davids and Oldenberg translate this passage by 'I allow you, oh brethren, to learn the words of the Buddha each in his own dialect.' This interpretation however is not in harmony with that of Buddhaghosa, according to whom it has to be translated by "I ordain the words of Buddha to be learnt in _his_ own language (i.e.Magadhi, the language used by Buddha himself)." After repeated examination of this passage I have come to the conclusion that we have to stick to the explanation given by Buddhaghosa. Neither the two monks or the Buddha himself could have thought of preaching in different cases in different dialects. Here the question is merely whether the words of Buddha migth be translated into Sanskrit or not. This is however clearly forbidden by the Master, at first negatively and then positively by the injunction beginning with 'anujaanaami'. The real meaning of this injunction is, as is also best in consonance with Indian spirit, that there can be no other form of the words of Buddha than in which the Master himself had preched. Thus even in the life-time of Buddha people were concerned about the way in which the teaching might be handed down as accurately as possible, both in form and in content. How much more must have been the anxiety of the disciples after his death! The external form was however Magadhi, thought according to tradition it is Pali."> I mentioned pronunciation of Pali: I remember the Buddha telling the monks about chanting not to chant in a certain way: drawing out voices long, etc. I cannot remember where. This may give a clue to pronunciation. Nina. 25122 From: connie Date: Mon Sep 8, 2003 0:47pm Subject: ps Jim I forgot all about mindfullness... if they are bees, they have to grab ahold of you with their front legs before they can sting you, so if you're paying attention, you can brush them off before the damage is done. I don't know a lot about wasps, but there were some living in the wall of my hide-out room for awhile. Our agreement was that I would leave when they were very busy and they put up with me. peace, connie 25123 From: christine_forsyth Date: Mon Sep 8, 2003 2:20pm Subject: Re: Kamma (Was re: Bahiya5) Hello Victor, and all, Victor, you have been telling me for a couple of years now what the Buddha's teaching is 'not about'. I have followed you through (among many other topics), the free-will vs no-control discussions, the 'what is a being' sutta exchange, and even the great personal pronoun debate. I think it would be very helpful for us if you would choose to say just what, IYHO, the Buddha IS teaching with regard to Anatta and no-self and beings. I recall that you never answered the question about whether you thought there was 'something' that stood separate and behind the five aggregates. But I don't recall that you have ever posted a clear summary (in everyday understandable words instead of only sutta links) of your own understanding of this matter. Nice to hear from you, by the way - sort of comforting to know some things don't perceptibly change, don't you think? metta and peace Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "yu_zhonghao" wrote: > Hi Christine and all, > > Have you ever considered that the Buddha's teaching is not about > seeing all beings, including yourself, as 'functionally unified > combinations of the five aggregates'?? > > The Buddha's teaching is not about what a being is. It is not about > seeing yourself thus: "I am a functionally unified combinations of > the five aggregates." Seeing self as a functionally unified > combinations of the five aggregates is seeing with self-view. > > Regarding the topic on kamma, this is how I understand it: > The principle of kamma is simple: wholesome actions lead to good > results, unwholesome actions lead to bad results. Seeing thus one > would aspire to wholesome actions and avoid unwholesome action. > What is complex is the phenomenon of kamma. A game can have a > simple set of rules; however, the ramification of the rules can be > complex. Simple patterns can give rise to complex phenomena. > > Peace, > Victor 25124 From: christine_forsyth Date: Mon Sep 8, 2003 2:27pm Subject: Re: Free-will (Was Kamma) Hello Antony, Thanks for your post. Off to work just now, so I'll have a think about it today - and listen to Thanissaro's talk, maybe even take a look at the UP on 'free-will'. Perhaps I'll have something to contribute this evening. Conditionality and no-control are always so interesting, aren't they? metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Antony Woods" 25125 From: norakat147 Date: Mon Sep 8, 2003 3:31pm Subject: Re: Demystifying/understanding nama and rupa Hi Nina, Thank you so much for attending to my question. I hear and read so much about it yet I still feel like I don't know it. you said, regarding rupa: "yes, but it exists only for a moment and then falls away. Its existing does not have to depend on our experiencing, in fact, it has to arise shortly before the nama that experiences it. Rupa is weak at its arising moment and can then not be object of experience." So do you mean to say the chair I sit in does not exist all the time? What is the evidence which led Buddha or anyone else to believe rupa arises and falls away? Also: While rupa can exist independent of (without) nama; does nama depend on rupa to exist? i.e. our body including our brain, nervous system, etc. is made up of rupa (unconscious elemental matter/atoms/molecules) from the earth ... Is it the structure/configuration/system of these unconcious atoms/molecules/elemental matter (rupa elements) which creates (brings into existence) the experiencing/noetic/nama- having/thinking/concious subject? (same question extended ...) Is it the structure/configuration/system of these unconcious atoms/molecules/elemental matter (rupa elements) which creates the subject having the 4 Khandas (feeling, perception/rememberance, conciousness, cetasikas) which goes away with the dissolution of my body (consisting of rupa)? This (the latter; nama dependence on rupa) is evident by experiments of the body. Adding/taking away hormones and other brain chemicals can create/conjure/effect (artificial) feelings. lobotomies, old age, brain experiments, etc. have shown to effect ones perception, thinking and state of conciousness. what do you think? metta, nori 25126 From: Jim Anderson Date: Mon Sep 8, 2003 3:27pm Subject: Re: [dsg] the proximate cause of wisdom Hi Sarah, > Perhaps as I wrote too with the Netti refs, proximate cause > (pada.t.thaana) can refer to 'necessary condition'? In this case, the > sutta ref RobK gave may be relevant. I suppose you could say that a proximate cause can refer to 'necessary condition' (don't know what that would be in Pali though) but I don't think it would be safe to say that *any* necessary condition is a proximate cause. I prefer to leave it to the traditional commentaries to define it. Since I haven't yet found any text that supports B.Bodhi's 'wise attention' as a proximate cause of pa~n~naa, I cannot accept it as Theravada doctrine. When one reads B.Bodhi's guide (p. 90) one can be easily led into thinking that the proximate cause as he defines it is the norm. However, his definitions of the characteristic, function, and manifestation of wisdom are quite okay. This is all part of my interest in determining the source of a statement -- whether it belongs to the Tipitaka, the Atthakathas, the Tikas, or is something said in a modern treatise. Best wishes, Jim 25127 From: Jim Anderson Date: Mon Sep 8, 2003 4:04pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Pali and sanskrit Dear Nina, > I mentioned pronunciation of Pali: I remember the Buddha telling the monks > about chanting not to chant in a certain way: drawing out voices long, etc. > I cannot remember where. > This may give a clue to pronunciation. > Nina. I think the passage you're thinking of is the one Mike posted two days ago (Hymns, etc) on the five dangers when chanting Dhamma. There is a good two page passage near the end of the Samantapaasaadikaa (pp. 1399-1400) that gets into phonetics (the terms are also defined in the Saddaniiti) and the correctness of pronunciation in legalistic matters and there is quite a lot of detail on the various ways in which Pali is mispronounced -- like the mistakes I see in the Thai spelling of Pali words. I'm afraid that I don't have the time to participate in this interesting discussion but thought the passage reference might be of interest to you. I'm on the side of Geiger and Buddhaghosa in these matters despite the criticism by most modern scholars (according to Edgerton). Best wishes, Jim 25128 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Mon Sep 8, 2003 4:56pm Subject: Re: Kamma (Was re: Bahiya5) Hi Christine and all, This is how I understand it: The Buddha's teaching with regard to "anatta" is that the aggregate is to be seen as it actually is with right discernment thus: "This is not mine. This I am not. This is not my self." Seeing oneself as a functionally unified combinations of the five aggregates is precisely the self-view that is to be abandoned. I could ask you in turn what this "something" that you are talking about. However I see this line of inquiry only leads more speculative thinking. Peace, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Hello Victor, and all, > [snip] > metta and peace > Christine 25129 From: kenhowardau Date: Mon Sep 8, 2003 5:40pm Subject: Re: Dhamma Issues , no 8. Slandering Dear Nina, > The Commentary to the ³Gradual Sayings², Book of the > Threes, Ch 2, §15, ³The wheelright², deals with the > eradication of unwholesome courses of action > (kamma-patha) by the path-consciousness of the > subsequent stages of enlightenment. I understand from what you have written in this post, that Path Consciousness eradicates certain past akusala kamma-patha and also destroys tendencies for future akusala kamma-patha. I assume that the paramattha dhammas involved are the 'kilesas' and the conventional ways in which they manifest are the 'kamma-pathas.' (?) At Cooran, we read an article that referred briefly to this subject. It said that, according to the suttas, the function of destroying certain kilesas belongs to supramundane Right Speech and Right Action (no references were given). Apparently, there are no sutta references to the function of Right Livelihood in this regard.(?) My theory is that supramundane Right Lifestyle reduces and destroys the three mental kamma-pathas; covertness, ill- will and wrong views. > ... six kinds of unwholesome courses of action which > are killing, stealing, sexual misconduct, lying, > slandering and wrong view, are eradicated by the path- > consciousness of the ariyan who is sotåpanna. This accounts for the Sotapanna's inability to break the first four precepts but isn't he also incapable of breaking the fifth (intoxicants)? It seems to me that the fifth precept is basically about livelihood. A worldling is capable of wrong view; in other words, of refusing to heed the Buddha's teaching. By taking intoxicants, he can live in a way that ensures heedlessness. On the other hand, a Sotapanna is incapable of wilful heedlessness. This manifests in his lifestyle as an inability to consume intoxicants. (?) But other kilesas continue to cause heedlessness and so he can live as a householder in much the same way as a worldling can. As for the next two stages of enlightenment, I don't know how the destruction of kilesas manifest in lifestyle. However, I remember your saying some months ago, that after the fourth stage, the Arahant Ariyan is incapable of living as a lay-person. Before I devote too much time to this train of thought, please tell me if it is on the right track. Kind regards, Ken H 25130 From: Date: Mon Sep 8, 2003 5:50pm Subject: Vism. XIV, 13 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) ch. XIV [How many kinds of understanding are there?] 13. 6. In the fifth dyad, understanding belonging to the first path is the "plane of seeing". Understanding belonging to the remaining three paths is the "plane of development" (see Ch. XXII, 127). So it is of two kinds as the planes of seeing and of development. ---------------- Vism. XXII, 127. (ii) The seeing of nibbana at the moment of the first path is "realizing as seeing". At the other path moments it is "realizing as developing". And it is intended as twofold here. So realizing of nibbana as seeing and as developing should be understood as a function of this knowledge. 25131 From: Date: Mon Sep 8, 2003 5:58pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism. XIV, 13 Hi all, I wonder if an alternate understanding of "the plane of seeing" and "the plane of development" could be the sense sphere and the three other spheres. My main reason for that interpretation is that all the other "kinds of understanding" are very broad, each including the others. Larry ---------------------- "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) ch. XIV [How many kinds of understanding are there?] 13. 6. In the fifth dyad, understanding belonging to the first path is the "plane of seeing". Understanding belonging to the remaining three paths is the "plane of development" (see Ch. XXII, 127). So it is of two kinds as the planes of seeing and of development. ---------------- Vism. XXII, 127. (ii) The seeing of nibbana at the moment of the first path is "realizing as seeing". At the other path moments it is "realizing as developing". And it is intended as twofold here. So realizing of nibbana as seeing and as developing should be understood as a function of this knowledge. 25132 From: Date: Mon Sep 8, 2003 2:14pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Demystifying/understanding nama and rupa In a message dated 9/8/2003 3:32:40 PM Pacific Daylight Time, nori_public@a... writes: > Nina: [re: rupa...] it exists only for a moment and > then falls away. Its existing does not have to depend on our > experiencing, in fact, it has to arise shortly before the nama that > experiences it. Rupa is weak at its arising moment and can then not > be object of experience." > > Nori: So do you mean to say the chair I sit in does not exist all the time? > What is the evidence which led Buddha or anyone else to believe rupa > arises and falls away? > Hi Nori The Buddha, to my knowledge, never explained impermanence in the fashion that abhidhamma thinking explains it. The Buddha said that:-- states arise, persist while changing, then cease. This explanation fits common sense observation about the way things rise and fall apart. For example, we are born, grow old, and die. The clock on my wall is not arising and immediately falling away. Its just hanging there slowly wearing out due to conditions. Is it possible that there is some subatomic brewing stew that arises and ceases immediately afterward and yet, states such as clocks, persist in a continuity of slow change? Perhaps but I'm not sure what the point is or how it helps in insight development. The world is not perceived that way. I don't think insight is about "imagining theories." I have also never heard a reasonable explanation for what the cause of this type of impermanence is. (But would love to.) I like your idea about Nama being based on Rupa. After all, originally there was no life on this planet, there was just Rupa. And Nama "grew out of that." TG 25133 From: norakat147 Date: Mon Sep 8, 2003 6:21pm Subject: discerning desire and aversion (need help) hi all, I am trying to clear up the terms 'desire' and 'aversion' as used in the tipitaka. I cannot see how desire and aversion in the conventional sense can be (or should be) eliminated. For example: If we found ourselves in a burning building, we would have 'aversion' to remaining in the burning building and so, we would leave; and thus our lives would be saved. If we had no 'aversion' and found comfort in the burning building, we would remain and burn to death. If we found ourselves in a desert and we were about to die from having no water then we would 'desire' water. Our 'desire' for wanting the water would get us to seek to possibly find water to survive. To a lesser degree, one can have 'aversion' to say, a dangerous, physically demanding job mining ore. Of course this person can suppress his 'aversion' to it, but then this person might end up suffering in these unfavorable conditions for the rest of his life. Through his 'aversion' to the job, he might go out and get a technical degree to get a easier job with less unfavorable conditions. ...and so 'desire' and 'aversion' are unavoidable and favorable at times, while they might cause periods of suffering. It is certainly the case that through these momentary periods of suffering, people gain the will to avoid a greater suffering. Is this the aversion and desire which is to be avoided (as referenced in the tipitaka)? Are we not to desire life and favorable conditions ? Are we not to have aversion to death and unfavorable conditions ? If not then what is the desire and aversion to which the tipitaka refers (to avoid and eliminate)? I would appreciate any help in clarification. peace and metta, nori 25134 From: Andrew Date: Mon Sep 8, 2003 6:54pm Subject: Things worth adhering to Hi folks Reading through my Majjhima Nikaya, I came across some perplexing language in the Shorter Discourse on the Destruction of Craving (Culatanhasankhaya Sutta). Sakka, ruler of gods, has asked Buddha how a bhikkhu gets liberated from the destruction of craving. Buddha answers: "... a bhikkhu has heard that nothing is worth adhering to. [Having heard this] he directly knows everything. Having directly known everything, he fully understands everything. Having fully understood everything, whatever feeling he feels ... he abides contemplating impermanence in those feelings ... Contemplating thus, he does not cling to anything in the world. When he does not cling, he is not agitated. When he is not agitated, he personally attains Nibbana." Bhikkhu Bodhi notes about the "adhering to" bit, that it means the 5 aggregates, 12 bases and 18 elements are not worth adhering to because they are impermanent. In fact, you CAN'T cling to them because they have changed even before you try. I was a bit confused by the use of "adhering" instead of "clinging". Why not say "nothing is worth clinging to"? Have I missed some distinction here? Have I missed the point? BTW Sakka sounds like your classic renovator god. Maha Moggallana went to visit him in his heavenly realm to discuss Dhamma, but Sakka was more interested in showing him around his lovely palace which has a hundred towers. That's alot of trips to the hardware store!! Metta Andrew 25135 From: norakat147 Date: Mon Sep 8, 2003 7:21pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Demystifying/understanding nama and rupa Hi TG, TG:"> I like your idea about Nama being based on Rupa. After all, originally there > was no life on this planet, there was just Rupa. And Nama "grew out of > that." Yes, common sense and observation seems to show us that nama is dependent on rupa and goes away once the structured rupa (i.e. our bodies, brain, nervous system) go into dissolution. However, it seems that the core of Theravada Buddhist doctrine is not in accord with this. I think what is claimed within the doctrine is that conciousness continues after dissolution of the body (and so not dependent on rupa). I think Sarah once told me that conciousness does indeed continue after dissolution of the body. Also the notion of many lives lived in succession, and rebirth are contrary to this (nama dependence on rupa). It would be really great if some great mind can clarify this for us. ------------------------- > Is it possible that there is some subatomic brewing stew that arises and > ceases immediately afterward and yet, states such as clocks, persist in a > continuity of slow change? Perhaps but I'm not sure what the point is or how it helps > in insight development. The world is not perceived that way. Yes, I have also heard many things regarding this especially in the field of quantum theory; Matter going into a hazy state of "uncertainty" when not being observed, etc. e.g. "I believe that the existence of the classical "path" can be pregnantly formulated as follows: The "path" comes into existence only when we observe it. --Heisenberg, in uncertainty principle paper, 1927" But like you said I do not perceive it that way and "I'm not sure what the point is or how it helps in insight development." If there was some point to this that should be noted that beneficial and helps insight development, it would be cool if someone could demonstrate that for us. peace and metta, nori 25136 From: Date: Mon Sep 8, 2003 8:05pm Subject: kinds of understanding Hi all, Below is a list of "kinds of understanding" from the Vimuttimagga. This is one of Bh. Buddhaghosa's main commentarial sources and the only one to survive. You can see what he used, what he dropped and what he added. Also listed is what I think is possible canonical sources provided by the editor/translators of this edition. These are all given in pali. If someone would like more detail I could type some snips. 1. mundane and supramundane. 2. with/without cankers, Cp. Dhs. 125 para. 584 3. from thought, from study, from culture (bhaavana-maya pa~n~naa), D.III, 219 4. skill in profit, in loss, in means, D. III, 220 5. wisdom that accumulates, does not accumulate, neither accumulates nor does not accumulate, Cp. Vbh. 326 6. produced by one's own kamma, conforms to the truth, connected to the 4 paths, connected to the 4 fruits, Cp. Vbh. 328 7. wisdom of the sensuous element, of the form element, of the formless element, of the unfettered, Vbh. 329 8. of dhamma, of succession, of discrimination, general knowledge, D. III, 226 9. due to combination and not due to non-combination, due to non-combination and not to combination, due to combination and also non-combination, due to neither combination nor non-combination, Vbh. 330 10. due to aversion and not to penetration, due to penetration and not to aversion, due to aversion and also penetration, due to neither penetration nor aversion, Vbh. 330 11. analysis of meaning, of dhamma, of interpretation, of argument, Vbh. 293, 331 12. consequence of cause, cause, analysis of dhamma, knowledge in regard to knowledge (same as 11), Vbh. 293 13. of ill and cessation, of origin of ill and the path, etymological interpretation of the dhamma, analysis of argument (same as 11),Vbh. 293 14. knowledge of the dhamma (namely discourses, mixed verse and prose, expositions etc.), meaning (one knows the meaning of what is spoken), the meaning of what has been preached (analysis of interpretation), knowledge in regard to knowledge (analysis of argument) (same as 11), Vbh. 294 15. "of the dhamma" is in respect of the eye, eye-knowledge in respect of views is called analysis of views, interpreting what has been preached is analysis of interpretation, knowledge in regard to knowledge is analysis of argument (same as 11), Vbh. 296 16. of ill, of the origin of ill, of the ceasing of ill, of the path, D. III, 227 25137 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Sep 8, 2003 9:09pm Subject: Re: [dsg] address for Chinese CMA (Abhidammattha sangaha) Dear Sarah, op 08-09-2003 09:50 schreef Sarah op sarahdhhk@y...: > It’s good to appreciate that the namas and rupas at boot camp are no > more or less real and to be known than those now, whilst listening to > music or studying the texts. No self to view, just panna to understand and > know them when there are conditions and without expectation. Your reminder to Icaro also goes for us now. I especially like your last words: know them when there are conditions and without expectation. Expectations always creep in, don't they? We study about defining nama and rupa, and voila, there they are. When and how shall we be able to at least realize directly the difference between nama and rupa? And then what you wrote to Jim, and this is good for all of us; < On the other hand, I don’t think either of us agree that this kind of complicated non-solitary daily lifestyle is any obstacle for developing satipatthana or other kinds of wholesome states, including samatha in the beginning - especially as all these depend primarily on right understanding (panna) of one kind or other. I think if we consider daily life objects of samatha such as reflection on the Dhamma, the Buddha’s qualities, metta, death and so on, we can appreciate why panna rather than time and effort are the keys to the arising of wholesome states.> may I forward your quote on Magadha to Pali list whe it comes up? But from where is the quote: Sv15,387 (Pali), 1946 (Eng) ?? Nina. 25138 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Sep 8, 2003 9:09pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Welcomes for Susan Hi Susan, I had to laugh: see below. op 08-09-2003 14:27 schreef susan macqueen op sues.greenbank@v...: > and if they are > not such good thoughts I do try and notice, but it's very difficult to grasp > sometimes as my big ego has led me most of my life. Nina: and me!!! I was just considering my dosa (aversion) on account of an unkind remark I had to hear. Clinging to the self. And also: we care what others think of us, again clinging to the self. We begin to notice this, and that is a good beginning. Maybe we had never considered all this before. We learnt thanks to the Buddha's teachings. We can think with gratefulness of the Buddha's qualities, that is a meditation for daily life. Also as Sarah said, Understanding is what helps most. Just reciting mantras, I do not see this as having much benefit. Unless you think of the Buddha while reciting. I did in Nepal. When I heard the sherpa's reciting Omani (mani: jewel) Padme (this means lotus: paduma) hum. Nina. 25139 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Sep 8, 2003 9:09pm Subject: FW: Co Mahaaraahulovaadasutta, no 11 B Co Mahaaraahulovaadasutta, no 11 B 11B: Sutta passage: Then the venerable Rahula thought, "Who indeed , after being personally exhorted by the Blessed One himself today, would go into the village for alms?" Turning back, he sat down at the foot of a certain tree, crossed his legs and, keeping his body upright, established mindfulness before him. ***** Commentary: athassa bhagavaa yasmaa na kevala.m ruupameva, vedanaadayopi eva.m da.t.thabbaa, Then, because Rahula should not only know matter, but also feelings, etc. in that way, tasmaa ruupampi raahulaatiaadimaaha. the Blessed One said because of this to him, "also matter, Rahula, ...² and so on. ko najjaati ko nu ajja. The words ³ko n'ajja², mean: ko nu ajja, "who would today." therassa kira etadahosi ``sammaasambuddho mayha.m attabhaavanissita.m chandaraaga.m ~natvaa This occurred to the Thera (Rahula): "The Buddha, the Exalted One, who knows my attachment with regard to the body `sama.nena naama evaruupo vitakko na vitakkitabbo'ti neva pariyaayena katha.m kathesi, did not give a round-about talk, saying, 'A monk should not have such a thought.' gaccha bhikkhu raahula.m vadehi `maa puna evaruupa.m vitakka.m vitakkesii'ti na duuta.m pesesi. He did not send a messenger with the words, ŒGo bhikkhu and say to Rahula, do not think again such a thought.¹ ma.m sammukkhe .thatvaayeva pana But he put me in front of him, sabha.n.daka.m cora.m cuu.laaya ga.nhanto viya just as one would grab a thief with his (stolen) wares by his topknot, sammukhaa sugatovaada.m adaasi. and he personally gave me a Blessed One's exhortation. sugatovaado ca naama asa"nkheyyehipi kappehi dullabho. It is truly difficult to receive a Blessed One's exhortation even in the course of countless aeons. evaruupassa buddhassa sammukhaa ovaada.m labhitvaa ko nu vi~n~nuu pa.n.ditajaatiko ajja gaama.m pi.n.daaya pavisissatii''ti. Whoever is intelligent, of a wise disposition, would, after being personally exhorted by such a Blessed One, go today into the village for alms?" athesa aayasmaa aahaarakicca.m pahaaya Then this venerable person, after he had abandoned the task of (receiving) almsfood, yasmi.m nisinna.t.thaane .thitena ovaado laddho, tatova pa.tinivattetvaa and after he had turned back again from the sitting place where he had remained to receive the exhortation, a~n~natarasmi.m rukkhamuule nisiidi. sat down at the foot of a certain tree. bhagavaapi ta.m aayasmanta.m nivattamaana.m disvaa na evamaaha -- When the Blessed One saw that the venerable Rahula had turned back, he did not say to him: ``maa nivatta taava, raahula, bhikkhaacaarakaalo te''ti. ³Do not turn back, Rahula, because it is the time for you to receive almsfood.² kasmaa? eva.m kirassa ahosi -- ``ajja taava kaayagataasatiamatabhojana.m bhu~njatuu''ti. Why? It may have occurred to the Buddha: " May he today eat the food of Deathlessness, namely, Mindfulness of the Body.² ***** English: Then, because Rahula should not only know matter, but also feelings, etc. in that way, the Blessed One said because of this to him, "also matter, Rahula, ...² and so on. The words ³ko n'ajja², mean: ko nu ajja, "who would today." This occurred to the Thera (Rahula): "The Buddha, the Exalted One, who knows my attachment with regard to the body did not give a round-about talk, saying, 'A monk should not have such a thought.' He did not send a messenger with the words, ŒGo bhikkhu and say to Rahula, do not think again such a thought.¹ But he put me in front of him, just as one would grab a thief with his (stolen) wares by his topknot, and he personally gave me a Blessed One's exhortation. It is truly difficult to receive a Blessed One's exhortation even in the course of countless aeons. Whoever is intelligent, of a wise disposition, would, after being personally exhorted by such a Blessed One, go today into the village for alms?" Then this venerable person, after he had abandoned the task of (receiving) almsfood, and after he had turned back again from the sitting place where he had remained to receive the exhortation, sat down at the foot of a certain tree. When the Blessed One saw that the venerable Rahula had turned back, he did not say to him: ³Do not turn back, Rahula, because it is the time for you to receive almsfood.² Why? It may have occurred to the Buddha: " May he today eat the food of Deathlessness, namely, Mindfulness of the Body.² ****** Nina. 25140 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Sep 8, 2003 9:09pm Subject: Re: [dsg] the proximate cause of wisdom Dear Sarah, Jim and friends, I have been reflecting on samadhi. It can also refer to lokuttara panna. When magga-citta arises and experiences nibbana, the accompanying samadhi can be compared to the strength of jhana, nibbana is experienced with absorption. Proximate cause I would see here as arising at the same time. As discussed before, not always is proximate cause arising before the reality it is the proximate cause of. In the case of mundane panna: it certainly performs a function, focussing on the object so that panna can know it. It is right concentration accompanying right understanding, they arise together. For those who also develop jhana and insight, the jhana can be proximate cause in the sense of being the base for insight. Jhana is then the object of insight. Nina. op 08-09-2003 10:33 schreef Sarah op sarahdhhk@y...: quote from Jim: > I just like to add that 'the four truths' is considered an alternative >> proximate cause of wisdom (catusaccapada.t.thaana) to the more usual >> samaadhipada.t.thaana according to some texts. 25141 From: Date: Mon Sep 8, 2003 5:16pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Demystifying/understanding nama and rupa In a message dated 9/8/2003 7:23:29 PM Pacific Daylight Time, nori_public@a... writes: > Yes, common sense and observation seems to show us that nama is > dependent on rupa and goes away once the structured rupa (i.e. our > bodies, brain, nervous system) go into dissolution. > > However, it seems that the core of Theravada Buddhist doctrine is not > in accord with this. I think what is claimed within the doctrine is > that conciousness continues after dissolution of the body (and so not > dependent on rupa). I think Sarah once told me that conciousness does > indeed continue after dissolution of the body. Also the notion of > many lives lived in succession, and rebirth are contrary to this > (nama dependence on rupa). > Hi Nori If consciousness is thought of as an energy, then it can continue "on its own" for a temporary period of time as something "propelled by" Rupa. Something like spinning a top. The top needs a string to be pulled in order for it to spin. But the top continues to spin after the string no longer contacts it based on the momentum provided by the string. When it runs out of momentum it needs to be pulled by the string again. The mind does not run out of momentum as long as craving keeps "spinning it." TG 25142 From: Date: Mon Sep 8, 2003 5:35pm Subject: Re: [dsg] discerning desire and aversion (need help) In a message dated 9/8/2003 6:24:40 PM Pacific Daylight Time, nori_public@a... writes: > ...and so 'desire' and 'aversion' are unavoidable and favorable at > times, while they might cause periods of suffering. It is certainly > the case that through these momentary periods of suffering, people > gain the will to avoid a greater suffering. > > Is this the aversion and desire which is to be avoided (as referenced > in the tipitaka)? > > Are we not to desire life and favorable conditions ? > > Are we not to have aversion to death and unfavorable conditions ? > Hi Nori The Buddha said... "What most people see as happiness, I see as sadness. What most people see as sadness, I see as a happiness. Behold a teaching that is hard to understand." The Buddha does not see "selves." The Buddha sees conditions. If there were actually "selves," than your analysis would be correct. But Buddha taught that "self-view" is a delusion, and there are actually only conditions. The continuation of conditions that lead to suffering, death, disease, grief, disappointment, etc. is seen as unsatifactory and best to be avoided. Avoiding these states through insight ends the cycle of delusion and results in peace. TG 25143 From: rjkjp1 Date: Mon Sep 8, 2003 11:47pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Demystifying/understanding nama and rupa --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, TGrand458@a... wrote: >> > Hi Nori > > The Buddha, to my knowledge, never explained impermanence in the fashion that > abhidhamma thinking explains it. > I like your idea about Nama being based on Rupa. After all, originally there > was no life on this planet, there was just Rupa. And Nama "grew out of > that." > > TG > >++++++++++ Dear TG, Just a couple of points. The Abhidhamma is the teaching of the Buddha so I think he must have explained it that way. Where did you read that nama(mentality) grew out of rupa(matter)? In the Digha Nikaya (On Knowledge of Beginnings, trans. Walshe, 1987) the Buddha very tersely gives an account of the origins of this universe, the planet, and of the human race: ""There comes a time when, sooner or later, after a very long period, this universe contracts [and is destroyed]. At a time of contraction beings are mostly born in the Brahma world. And there they dwell, mind-made, feeding on delight, self-luminous, moving through the air, glorious - and they stay like that for a very long period. But sooner or later, after a very long period, the universe begins to expand again…. At that period [when a new universe is beginning] there was just one mass of fluidity and all was darkness, blinding darkness. Neither moon nor sun appeared (or; were manifest) no constellations or stars appeared, night and day were not distinguished, nor months and fortnights, no years or seasons, and no male or female, beings being reckoned just as beings. And sooner or later, after a very long period, savoury earth spread itself over the water where those beings were. It looked just like the skin that spreads itself over hot milk as it cools...." (1987, pp.409-410). Later the beings taste the nutritive foam. They then take on coarse material bodies. These 'mind-made' beings, in the brahma world have no rupa. The earth is already formed when they take rebirth there. RobertK 25144 From: rjkjp1 Date: Mon Sep 8, 2003 11:57pm Subject: Re: kinds of understanding --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@w... wrote: > Hi all, > > Below is a list of "kinds of understanding" from the Vimuttimagga. This > is one of Bh. Buddhaghosa's main commentarial sources and the only one > to survive. ____ Dear Larry, Could you cite where Buddhaghosa says he used the Vimuttimagga as one of his main references. Robertk 25145 From: kenhowardau Date: Tue Sep 9, 2003 0:16am Subject: [dsg] Re: Demystifying/understanding nama and rupa Hi TG, You wrote to Nori: -------------- > The Buddha, to my knowledge, never explained > impermanence in the fashion that > abhidhamma thinking explains it. -------------- This is a surprising thing to read. -------------- > The Buddha said that:-- states arise, > persist while changing, then cease. -------------- Sounds like Abhidhamma to me. -------------- > This explanation fits common sense observation > about the way things rise and fall apart. For example, > we are born, grow old, and die. -------------- Are you suggesting that the 'states' that rise, persist, then cease, include living beings? You must be aware that the Buddha referred to living beings only by way of conventional designation -- that in reality, only the five khandhas exist. (?) In the reality taught by the Buddha, living beings do not rise, persist and fall away. According to the Buddha (in the suttas and the Abhidhamma), living beings are mere conventional designations -- figures of speech. --------------- > The clock on my wall is not arising and immediately > falling away. --------------- No, because 'clock' is a conventional designation for the visible object (or audible object etc.) that arises in the rupa khandha. What is 'arising and immediately falling away' is the rupa that is conventionally designated 'clock,' . ------------ > Its just hanging there slowly wearing out due to > conditions. ------------- This is not Dhamma, this is mere, conventional reality. ------------- > Is it possible that there is some subatomic brewing > stew that arises and ceases immediately afterward -------------- Yes, modern science says that matter rises, persists and falls away in a nano-second. (Reminiscent of rupa, isn't it?) ------------ > and yet, states such as clocks, persist in a > continuity of slow change? ------------- You seem to be rejecting modern science in favour of Newtonian science. (Neither is Dhamma, of course.) --------------- > Perhaps but I'm not sure what the point is or how it > helps in insight development. -------------- There can be no insight into nama and rupa while you are thinking (in mere figures of speech). -------------- > The world is not perceived that way. --------------- It is by a Buddha. --------------- > I don't think insight is about "imagining theories." --------------- The only imagined theories here are "living being" and "clock." --------------- > I have also never heard a reasonable explanation for > what the cause of this type of impermanence is. (But > would love to.) ----------------- Why do you want to know the cause of impermanence? --------------- > I like your idea about Nama being based on Rupa. After > all, originally there was no life on this planet, there > was just Rupa. And Nama "grew out of that." ------------- To borrow your words; 'The Buddha, to my knowledge, never explained impermanence in the fashion that [your] thinking explains it.' Kind regards, Ken H 25146 From: Sarah Date: Tue Sep 9, 2003 2:06am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Bahiya7 - *Nori* - simple living (reply for Sarah) Hi Nori, (Dan, Kom, Ray & All), --- norakat147 wrote: > Sorry for the non-specific, vague, open questions. .... Your questions are all very good ones, Nori;-) It’s a kind of therapy for me to try and respond. .... > Of course, to live somewhere means also to be engulfed in the > collective conciousness of that region. The dominant beliefs and > views of a nation/country/area creates its culture (i.e. its > behavior, its way of life), its laws, its feelings/emotions (toward > things), its conversations, its media, etc. > > Thoughts beget like thoughts. > > It is difficult and painful (not to mention lonely) to maintain > individuality somewhere, especially if you are against the grain. It > is also inevitable that maintaining constant contact/interaction with > a culture will result in some sort of influence. > > Just as association with the unbeloved is dukkha, so it is with an > unbeloved culture and nation (no offense to anyone). ..... Dan raised one good counter-question (Dan, hope you all had a good move and hope to hear more from you on this or other threads;-)) It’s true that we read amongst the greatest blessings (Maha Mangala sutta)about the value of associating with the wise, not the foolish and residing in a suitable place and so on. In a sutta I quoted from briefly yesterday (AN,X.61,62 p254 in ‘Numerical Discourses of the Buddha’, we read about the importance of ‘listening to the true Dhamma’., ‘association with superior people’ and so on. I also think we have to understand the real problems and cause of dukkha at this very moment rather than thinking about another time or place. So often when we feel lonely or misunderstood, it shows the deep clinging to oneself. No metta or understanding at these times. I really like the sutta Ray quoted a lot: Samyutta Nikaya XXXV.206 Chappana Sutta The Six Animals (I also compared BBodhi’s translation on p1255, vol1SN) With non-restraint like the six animals, aren’t we intent upon the pleasant forms, sounds....mental phenomena and so on and repelled by the displeasing ones? Without mindfulness and detachment, don’t we wander round like the ‘foul village thorn’*? *Spk (commentary): he is a ‘foul village-thorn’: ‘foul’ in the sense of imure, a ‘village thorn’ in the sense of wounding the villagers[Spk-p.t: that is, oppressing them by accepting their services while being unworthy of them]. ..... > I imagined that a Theravada Buddhist dominated country would also > form/influence its culture (i.e. its behavior, its way of life) and > laws based on its (Theravada Buddhist) views to a great degree, which > is more akin to me. I thought that being in the presence of such an > influenced culture/peoples would be more conducive to ending dukkha, > since the dhamma is contained within it - the prevalent culture (i.e. > its behavior, its way of life). > > If this were the case, you would not have to constantly swim against > the current. ..... Nori, I understand just what you’re saying and certainly I’ve learnt a lot from time I’ve spent in Theravada Buddhist countries and friends. On the other hand, I think the real meaning of swimming against the current relates to our own ignorance and wrong views rather than to those around us. Like in the sutta, the swimming against the current is the swimming against the unrestraint as shown by the example of the six animals. .... > If this were the case maybe you can learn dhamma just by observing > the behavior of others and how they live; simply by being in their > presence. The greatest prize being that association with them (in- > itself) would not be dukkha. ..... I’d love Kom or Dan to add more comments. I do agree that we can learn a lot from the examples of wise companions. I feel I’ve been very, very fortunate in this regard (the wise companionship), but I’m also aware that so often our kilesa (defilements) make it difficult to appreciate wise words and actions often when they’re right in front of us. I can read a sutta like the Chappana sutta, theoretically appreciate the wise words and good companionship that brought it to my attention and then lobha will chase after visible objects, sounds and tastes immediately afterwards again as usual. Nori, in your follow-up comment to Dan you mentioned more about the influence of those around you and I think you were referring to the difficulty of withstanding these influences. I’m sure we can all relate to this. However, even at these times of ‘acquiring sensual pleasures’ as you referred to, there can be awareness. Lobha is just a mental state that can be known. It’s not an ‘individual’ or ‘Nori’. I mentioned before that until the last couple of years I had a very busy workload. Khun Sujin visited and stayed with us several times in Hong Kong during some particularly hectic years. I remember on one of her visits I was rather stressed out and exhausted and Jon also asked questions about sati (mindfulness) at work. Never once did she suggest we might ‘take it easy’, ‘have a holiday’, ‘cut down work’, ‘read more Abhidhamma’, ‘learn Pali’, or ‘consider an altenative lifestyle’. Instead she’d just smile, seemingly unconcerned and give reminders about present realities such as seeing, lobha (attachment), dosa(aversion), thinking and anatta. She’d encourage metta, kindness and understanding for those we came into contact with. The emphasis was always on the present moment and detachment from those phenomena -- the namas and rupas -- conditioned already. Nina translated these lines from the Maharahulavada commentary “anatthajanano lobho, lobho cittappakopano. Desire leads to harm, it agitates the mind, bhayamantarato jaata.m, ta.m jano naavabujjhati. peril occurs within, but people do not understand this. luddho attha.m na jaanaati, luddho dhamma.m na passati. The person with desire does not know cause and effect. * andhatama.m tadaa hoti, ya.m lobho sahate nara.m.. (itivu 88) -- There is dense darkness when desire overwhelms people.” Nina adds:* the person with attachment does not understand the cause (dhamma as cause,hetu) of dukkha, which is craving, nor the effect (attha) which is dukkha. He does not understand the noble Truths and thus there will not be the cessation of dukkha. ****** Also as Mike wrote to you before on another thread: "I" is the problem, whether socially or individually. When hatred and greed are present, clinging to self is never far away. When understanding is present, ignorance, hatred and greed are not and can't contribute to the horrors you mentioned above. That's why I think that bhavana (and especially di.t.thujukamma, the correction of views) is the best way to approach the problems of the world, whether on an individual or social basis.” Hope we can visit some of us in Asia one day, Nori. Please keep up your important (and challenging;-)) questions for which I sincerely thank you. Metta, Sarah ===== 25147 From: Sarah Date: Tue Sep 9, 2003 3:09am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:Vism XIV, 7 (4) [For any newcomers, CMA often quoted on DSG, refers to B.Bodhi’s translation of the Abhidammattha Sangaha, titled ‘Compendium Manual of Abhidhamma’ with guide notes. The original text is an important 12th century treatise or compilation of Abhidhamma by Acariya Anuruddha, and has always been highly esteemed by Theravada Buddhists] ***** Hi Howard (& Larry), Sorry for the delay. --- upasaka@a... wrote: S:> > 2. In the case of concepts experienced as arammana (object),they are not cittas, cetasikas or rupas which have just fallen away like the other > > objects. They never existed, were never experienced through the sense > > doors and never themselves experienced other namas or rupas. > > > > > ========================= H: > I'm afraid this makes *no* sense to me. Besides nibbana, all > there are > are cittas, cetasikas,and rupas. Concepts, it is repeatedly asserted, do > not > exist. What does not exist can NOT and is NOT taken as an object. ..... I appreciate the apparent paradox. However, I think it’s very clear that when we think, concepts are the objects. Just so that you know I’m not making anything up, let me direct you to some relevant pages in CMA which I know you have open these days;-) Ch111, 16 (p135) Analysis of Objects: “In the compendium of objects, there are six kinds of objects, namely visible form object, sound object, smell object, taste object, tangible object, and mental object. ......But mental object is sixfold: sensitive matter, subtle matter, consciousness, mental factors, Nibbana, and concepts (pa~n~natti).” B.Bodhi writes in the Guide to these lines: “Concepts - the class of conventional realities, things which do not exist in the ultimate sense - also fall into the category of mental object.” In the next paragraph: 17 Classification by way of Doors “For all types of eye-door consciousness, visible form alone is the object, and that pertains only to the present. Likewise sounds, etc.... But the object of mind-door consciousness is of six kinds, and that object may be present, past, future, or independent of time, according to circumstances.” ..... > Anything > asserted, positive or negative,about a non-existent, is literally either > false or > meaningless (or is a shorthand for an assertion quite different from the > face > value of the given assertion). ..... We can talk about different kinds of concepts and we think and talk about them all day - but they are only concepts, at best conventional truths. .... >If there are no concepts, then there are > no > concepts .. period. What we actually experience is what we actually > experience. .... There are concepts experienced, but as they are only conceived and are not actualities with sabhava and characteristics and are not conditioned, they cannot be ‘known’ as such. ..... > If we *think* that we are experiencing something that does not exist, > then we > are simply deluded in that respect, and we should not speak of cognizing > what > does not exist. ..... I agree that if these are taken to ‘exist’ then we are deluded. However, this doesn’t mean they are not experienced (cognized?). ..... To say "I am thinking of a tree" is merely to describe > the > nature of the flow of one's thoughts in a metaphorical fashion. Taken > literally, > it is simply false. ..... Thinking (i.e the cittas and cetasikas involved) are real. The concepts thought about are really thought about or experienced. .... > The thing is, however, it seems to me that when you say "concept" > you > refer to the alleged referent of what I mean when I say "concept". To > me, a > concept is an internal mental phenomenon collection of such. [...] >When one says that concepts don't exist, I > take > that to mean that, with the exception of concepts of paramattha dhammas, > it is > the alleged *referents* of concepts that do not exist. The concepts, > themselves, per se, are thoughts - internal sankharic creations, most > likely > sa~n~na-created mental tags. ..... Mostly I agree with what you say, Howard (esp. the snipped part;-)) and the importance of sanna, vitakka, vicara (and other mental factors) accompanying the cittas at the times when concepts are experienced. When one says concepts don’t exist, it means ALL concepts (not just referents) do not have any existence at all other than conventionally speaking. At the moments of thinking ‘there is a tree’, what can actually be directly known? Only thinking, but not the thought or concepts. I’m not trying to complicate matters, Howard and I’m aware of how frustrating these comments probably are to many people. (Actually, I hesitated to reply further at all;-)). You might find one of these posts from UP (Nina, RobK and Jon) explains more clearly and with more detail: ***** Thinking & Thought 15685, 22253, 22403, 22571 ***** Metta, Sarah ======= 25148 From: Sarah Date: Tue Sep 9, 2003 5:12am Subject: Re: [dsg] Bahiya5 - *Howard&Christine* - ordinary people? Hi Howard (Christine, Ray, RobK & All), --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Of course, I do not at *all* dismiss the role of accumulations in > the > case of the mentally deficient person or in other cases. Conditions, all > the > necessary conditions, must be in place for any event to occur, including > stream > entry. But what they are in a specific case is usually indiscernible for > us, > and to assume that for stream entry they must include having had more or > less > direct contact with Abhidhamma teachings during some lifetime or other > strikes > me as a BIG presumption. ...... I appreciate your point and perhaps it depends what we call ‘Abhidhamma teachings’ too. As TG and others have pointed out, the entire depth of the teachings is contained in the suttas and these, understood properly, contain all that we need to know, i.e the truth about anatta and conditioned dhammas. However, as RobK pointed out, for those of us who are slow in understanding today, we need to hear many details for any hope of attainment in this life or future lives. You gave the example (identified thx to Rob & Ray) of Culapantaka (Little Wayman) (Dhp-a, verse 25, also Jataka 4).You suggested he was not well-versed in the Abhidhamma and you may be right. However, there are always so many factors and details we don’t know and as I tried to show in Bahiya’s case, the conditions and right factors have been developing over aeons and sasanas. In this case, we do read: - his older brother used to accompany his grandfather (with whom both brothers lived) to listen to the Buddha (and would then return home to Culapantaka). - as a result of the visits and what he heard, the older brother became a monk under the Buddha with his grandfather’s blessing. The grandfather also had great confidence in the teachings. - the older brother learnt by heart a large part of the teachings and attained arahantship. - encouraged by his older brother, Culapantaka ordained. His brother ‘established’ him in the ‘moral precepts’. - Culapantaka had also ordained under Buddha Kassapa and even then ‘possessed great wisdom’, but had ridiculed another monk for being a dullard and as a result was unable to learn a simple verse in this life. - even though his brother was an arahant, he was unable to know what he needed to hear (cf Sariputta and the golden lotus Jataka). In this case, his brother even expelled him from the Sangha. - the Buddha understood his ‘accumulations’ from past lives including his knowledge of impermanence, gave him the cloth to rub, uttered the verses on the impurity of lust, hatred and delusion and Culapantaka attained arahantship with the 4 patisambhidas (knowledges) and also ‘a knowledge of the THREE PITAKAS’ which immediately are apparent to those with the patisambhidas. - a little later Culapantaka ‘like a young lion roaring a lion’s roar, pronounced the words of thanksgiving, ranging through the whole of the Three Pitakas.’ With metta, Sarah ===== > > Accumulations or habitual tendencies are so very complicated and so > often > > the picture we get is a very limited one. Taking the case of Bahiya, > we > > read about the seemingly simple life of a man dressed in lower > garments > > made from bark and hiding in the forest. We read that he was > > well-respected and provided for, but convinced erroneously that he was > an > > arahant until the visit of the Brahma. > > > > > > > > As I also mentioned in the last post, Bahiya had listened to > > 'Dhamma-teaching' from previous Buddhas and also to anagamis > > (non-returners) in deva realms. So while it might seem from the sutta > that > > he was also not well-versed in the Abhidhamma, from all his previously > > accumulated knowledge,jhanic abilities and other kusala kamma, he was > able > > to fully penetrate the succinct summary of the Abhidhamma in the brief > > words as I understand. > > > > Look forward to any comments, > > > > Metta, > > > > Sarah 25149 From: Date: Tue Sep 9, 2003 1:48am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Kamma (Was re: Bahiya5) Hi, Victor (and Christine) - In a message dated 9/8/03 7:59:01 PM Eastern Daylight Time, yu_zhonghao@y... writes: > Hi Christine and all, > > This is how I understand it: > The Buddha's teaching with regard to "anatta" is that the aggregate > is to be seen as it actually is with right discernment thus: "This > is not mine. This I am not. This is not my self." Seeing oneself > as a functionally unified combinations of the five aggregates is > precisely the self-view that is to be abandoned. > > I could ask you in turn what this "something" that you are talking > about. However I see this line of inquiry only leads more > speculative thinking. > > Peace, > Victor > > ========================= As I understand your perspective on the teaching, Victor, you are saying that whatever we turn to, anything whatsoever, should be seen as not me and not mine. You are saying that it is wrong to say anything along the lines of "I am merely such & such," because that already presumes an "I" that is something or other, and it is wrong as well to say anything along the lines of "I am not such and such," because that also presumes an "I" that fails to be something or other. It is *right* simply to assert that nothing whatsoever is me or mine, to stop thinking and talking along the lines of what an alleged self might or might not be, to pragmatically stop speculation and let go of that whole matter. Is that basically correct? With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 25150 From: Date: Tue Sep 9, 2003 1:59am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Demystifying/understanding nama and rupa Hi, TG (and Nori) - In a message dated 9/8/03 9:21:30 PM Eastern Daylight Time, TGrand458@a... writes: > Hi Nori > > The Buddha, to my knowledge, never explained impermanence in the fashion > that > abhidhamma thinking explains it. The Buddha said that:-- states arise, > persist while changing, then cease. This explanation fits common sense > observation > about the way things rise and fall apart. For example, we are born, grow > old, and die. The clock on my wall is not arising and immediately falling > away. > Its just hanging there slowly wearing out due to conditions. > > Is it possible that there is some subatomic brewing stew that arises and > ceases immediately afterward and yet, states such as clocks, persist in a > continuity of slow change? Perhaps but I'm not sure what the point is or > how it helps > in insight development. The world is not perceived that way. > ------------------------------------------------------ Howard: Not ususally, but I believe that it can be so perceived. It has been my experience that with deep concentration and heightened mindfulness, it is possible to observe the flow of dhammas at a more "microscopic" level, closer to, if not at, the level of "paramattha dhammas" than the usual macroscopic-conceptual level of observation. The Goenka/U Ba Khin bodily-sensation meditation approach gives one an entree to this. ------------------------------------------------------- I don't think > > insight is about "imagining theories." I have also never heard a reasonable > > explanation for what the cause of this type of impermanence is. (But would > love to.) > > I like your idea about Nama being based on Rupa. After all, originally > there > was no life on this planet, there was just Rupa. And Nama "grew out of > that." > > TG =================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 25151 From: Sarah Date: Tue Sep 9, 2003 6:26am Subject: Re: [dsg] Pali and Sanskrit Dear Nina, I’m rather behind on replies and I have no time now, so I’ll look at this thread later. --- nina van gorkom wrote: > Is it perhaps in the Peg sutta, I could not find this one. Rob K and > Sarah > quoted this, it is about the decline of the teachings, preferring > poetical > language to the scriptures. Please see RobK’s post at this link which contains the sutta: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/6569 The sutta is a wonderful reminder. It should be quoted often, I think. Metta, Sarah p.s the other quotes I gave which you asked about were from the Sammohavinodani, Nanamoli transl, ch11 ‘Class of the Path’, p.39,40. (Sv320 etc - I try to copy Jim’s example when I write to him- I know he uses the Pali;-)) ====== 25152 From: abhidhammika Date: Tue Sep 9, 2003 7:45am Subject: Evam Me Vuttam, Thus Was Spoken By Me: ...Joyce Short Suttam Dear Dhamma friends How are you? Evam me vuttam. Thus was spoken by me once upon a time on the Internet - in response to Joyce Short's request for Mahayana sects I might have invented. Joyce Short wrote: "How intriguing, but I'm not sure what we have. Perhaps you could give specific examples of what Mahayana sects you invented, what statements in what Suttas you interpreted in absolute terms and your personal opinions and what names you then gave them?" Verily, I spoke the following in reply to Joyce. It was merely a very, very bizarre idea. And it was not worth going all the way inventing them because they would have proved to merely be systems of personal opinions and half-truths. In addition, the bizarre project would have died out like most breakaway personal sects did. For example, the Sanskrit texts of Sarvaasthivaada sect are now available only in fragments. You would find it very hard to name someone who follows it today. And who are Puggalavaadins, these days? And most bizarrely, those so-called Hinayana sects were kept alive only by some Mahayana sects to demonstrate that the latter were better than the former. And it was done before telling which later Mahayana sects were better than which previous ones, according to Yamakami's "Systems of Buddhistic Thoughts". Interestingly, Yamakami did not dare to include (or was not equipped to include) the original mainstream Buddhism popularly known as Theravada among his sysytems of Buddhistic thoughts in his book. If he did, it would have amounted to saying that the teachings of a Mahayana sect leader who was alledgely a bodhisattva were better than Pali Tipi.taka taught by Gotama The Historical Buddha. Yes, to say that the teachings of alledged bodhisattvas, namely Mahayana Buddhism, were better than the teachings of Gotama the Real Buddha would indeed be the most ridiculous thing to say. Therefore, I will have to disappoint you regarding your request for Mahayana sects I might have invented. The one thing I can offer you, though, is bodhiology that is a scientific experimental system solidly based on Pali Tipi.taka. It is specially developed for those who are totally impervious to any religion, but who might need the insights and methods of Gotama the Real Buddha in a non-religious format or a scientific format. Unlike the Mahayana sects, bodhiology isn't offered as something to transcend the teachings of the Buddha. Far from it, bodhiology uses science to preserve and promote the teachings of Gotama the Real Buddha. Cheers, Suan http://www.bodhiology.org "abhidhammika" wrote: > > Dear Dhamma friends How are you? Evam me vuttam. Thus was spoken by me - in response to TG once upon a time on the Internet. There you have it! With regards, Suan Lu Zaw --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "abhidhammika" wrote: > > > Dear TG, Elias, and all > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, TGrand458@a... wrote: > > Hi Elias > > First of all, "mental stillness" is the end result of wisdom/insight > in > Theravadin. It is not something to try to "artificially establish" as > it would > appear to be in some practices like Zen for example. First develop > wisdom, > 25153 From: Jim Anderson Date: Tue Sep 9, 2003 9:21am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: the proximate cause of wisdom Dear Connie, Thank-you for your suggestions. I was just talking to my neighbour about the bee problem and apparently he's been having the same problem and getting stung too. He says they are yellowjackets (wasps). I went to an internet information page on them at: http://ohioline.osu.edu/hyg-fact/2000/2075.htmland and found the following: "Although yellowjackets are considered quite beneficial to agriculture since they feed abundantly on harmful flies and caterpillars, it is their boldness (sometimes aggressiveness) and painful stinging ability that cause most concern. Nevertheless, unless the threat of stings and nest location present a hazard, it is often best to wait for Mother Nature, with freezing temperatures in late November and December, to kill off these annual colonies. Stinging workers do not survive the winter and the same nest is not reused." I think this is probably the best advice as the freezing temperatures will start here early next month. During the meantime when I work outside I can wear protective clothing. I also happen to have a beekeeper's netted hat. Best wishes, Jim > Dear Jim, > > May I add to wear white or other light colored cotton clothes and to > avoid dark colors and wool when you deal with the bees. You might want > to stuff your pant legs into your socks or tie off the bottom of them > down around your boots. Maybe gloves with rubber bands around your > sleeves. Something to tie onto your head and have hanging down. Not > sure what to suggest for a veil. 25154 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Sep 9, 2003 10:07am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism. XIV, 13, seeing and developing. Dear Larry, op 09-09-2003 02:58 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > I wonder if an alternate understanding of "the plane of seeing" and "the > plane of development" could be the sense sphere and the three other > spheres. My main reason for that interpretation is that all the other > "kinds of understanding" are very broad, each including the others. N: In this context they both refer to lokuttara panna. See also the relevant subco. But when reading on Vis. XXII, 128: after your quote: <(d) And two developings are reckoned: but developing is also reckoned as twofild, namely as (i) mundane developing and (ii) as supramundane developing. (1) Herein, the arousing of mundane virtue, concentration and understanding, and the influencing of the continuity by their means, is mundane developing. And (ii) the arousing of supramundane virtue, concentration and understanding, and the influencing of the continuity by them is supramundane developing.> The Vis. then states that in this context (the end of Ch XXII) the supramundane developing is intended here. Nina. 25155 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Sep 9, 2003 10:07am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Dhamma Issues , no 8. Slandering Dear Ken, op 09-09-2003 02:40 schreef kenhowardau op kenhowardau@y...: > > I understand from what you have written in this post, > that Path Consciousness eradicates certain past akusala > kamma-patha and also destroys tendencies for future > akusala kamma-patha. I assume that the paramattha > dhammas involved are the 'kilesas' and the conventional > ways in which they manifest are the 'kamma-pathas.' (?) N: Latent tendencies (not past kammas) are eradicated at the different stages of enlightenment. It means that there are no more conditions for the committing of akusala kamma, depending on the stage which is reached. You say,< the conventional > ways in which they manifest are the 'kamma-pathas.' > Kamma-patha is mental it is the cetasika which is cetana, intention. I do not see it as conventional truth. But perhaps you think of the whole situation? K: At Cooran, we read an article that referred briefly to > this subject. It said that, according to the suttas, > the function of destroying certain kilesas belongs to > supramundane Right Speech and Right Action (no references > were given). N: Not just these two: panna takes the lead, and the other Path factors asist performing their functions. The text of the Dhamma Issue: K:Apparently, there are no sutta references > to the function of Right Livelihood in this regard.(?) N: Right Livelihood is wrong action and wrong speech committed for the sake of earning one's living, and for the monks: for the sake of obtaining the requisites. K:My > theory is that supramundane Right Lifestyle reduces and > destroys the three mental kamma-pathas; covertness, ill- > will and wrong views. N: I do not think we should take right livelihood separately for this function. We have to take into account all Path factors. K: ... six kinds of unwholesome courses of action which >> are killing, stealing, sexual misconduct, lying, >> slandering and wrong view, are eradicated by the path- >> consciousness of the ariyan who is sotåpanna. N: Slandering is completely eradicated by the anagami, but it is attenuated by the sotapanna, as was shown. It does not have the intensity of a complete action anymore. No intention to divide people. K: This accounts for the Sotapanna's inability to break the > first four precepts but isn't he also incapable of > breaking the fifth (intoxicants)? N: Right. K: It seems to me that the fifth precept is basically about > livelihood. N: We read in the Co to the "Minor Sayings", the "Illustrator of ultimate Meaning", that the transgression of one of the precepts conditions the transgression of each of the others. As you say: heedlessness. When drunk, you may also easily kill, steal, etc. Not just wrong livelihood. > K: On the other hand, a Sotapanna is incapable of wilful > heedlessness. This manifests in his lifestyle as an > inability to consume intoxicants. (?) But other kilesas > continue to cause heedlessness. N: It depends to what degree. Lodewijk drinks wine with his meals and once a friend suggested that even a sip is akusala kamma. I asked A. Sujin and she said: does he take wine in order to get drunk? There is a difference here. K: As for the next two stages of enlightenment, I don't know > how the destruction of kilesas manifest in lifestyle. > However, I remember your saying some months ago, that > after the fourth stage, the Arahant Ariyan is incapable > of living as a lay-person. K: Also the anagami who has eradicated attachment to sensepleasures has no inclination to live in a house, I understood. Maybe a cabin :-) The arahat: See Dhamma Issues Ch 6, about Milinda's questions: <³Milinda¹s Questions², Seventh Division, no 2, explains clearly that a layman who attains arahatship but who does not become a monk must attain parinibbåna on that very day. > The arahat has no longer conditions to be a layman. I liked the Cooran reports, but was the place Andrew's farm? I would have liked more details. Nina. 25156 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Sep 9, 2003 10:07am Subject: Re: [dsg]Vimuttimagga Dear Larry and Sarah. Larry, thank you for the list. It contains much also from Vibh, but for now I keep to subco no 8, which is very compact, includes a lot and takes me back and forth to Vis further on, to Vibh, to Netti. As to Vimuttimagga, this is not canonical. I know very little about it, and do not know whether Buddhaghosa used it. It may be interesting to compare Vimuttimagga with Visuddhimagga, but we are so busy now with canonical texts, that I rather keep to these. Buddhaghosa: He just edited the very ancient commentaries he found in the Great Monastery of Anuradhapura. He edited and translated Co to all parts of the Tipitaka and these survive!!!. He did not drop or add anything. Once or twice he had his own opinion and then he mentioned it. Question to Sarah: you wrote before that also the ancient commentaries were rehearsed at the Great Councils. Where could I find a reference to this? It would be helpful. Nina. op 09-09-2003 05:05 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > Below is a list of "kinds of understanding" from the Vimuttimagga. This > is one of Bh. Buddhaghosa's main commentarial sources and the only one > to survive. You can see what he used, what he dropped and what he added. 25157 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Sep 9, 2003 10:07am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: dsgn, rupa and Pali accents Dear Connie, op 08-09-2003 19:56 schreef connie op nichicon@h...: > I don't know if I have the whole Velthuis list, but the symbols I have > now are: > > 1/4 = .l 1.2 = .m 3/4 = Aa > superscripted: 0 = .n 1 = .d 2 = ii 3 = uu > combined +_ = aa > u w/long tail in front = .t > Plus the Spanish ~n of course, but it looks as expected on my screen. N: there is one lacking: n with a dot on top: "n , and the word that has it: sorry, it comes later, it is in the para that has ko n'ajja (in red), <``ko najja {ko nujja (syaa0 ka.m0)} bhagavataa sammukhaa ovaadena ovadito gaama.m pi.n.daaya pavisissatii''ti tato pa.tinivattitvaa a~n~natarasmi.m rukkhamuule nisiidi palla"nka.m aabhujitvaa uju.m kaaya.m pa.nidhaaya parimukha.m sati.m upa.t.thapetvaa. addasaa kho aayasmaa saariputto aayasmanta.m raahula.m a~n~natarasmi.m rukkhamuule nisinna.m palla"nka.m aabhujitvaa uju.m kaaya.m pa.nidhaaya parimukha.m sati.m upa.t.thapetvaa .> Do you see the word palla"nka.m, in the forelast sentence? That is the sign. I see that the symbols come over differently on your computer. Therefore, it is still safer to write the spanish ñ as: ~n I hope this helps. Yes the grammar: I also have to keep coming back to it. It comes while reading, then it makes more sense. Nina. P.S. How is it with you, Sarah? 25158 From: christine_forsyth Date: Tue Sep 9, 2003 1:45pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Dhamma Issues , no 8. Slandering Hello Nina (Ken) and all, I was interested to read these sentences below: "Lodewijk drinks wine with his meals and once a friend suggested that even a sip is akusala kamma. I asked A. Sujin and she said: does he take wine in order to get drunk? There is a difference here." This is very thought provoking. At what point (according to Abhidhamma teachings) that intoxicants have been taken at a sufficient level to impinge on awareness of the present moment. Isn't the word "abstain" used in the original suttas? If so, according to the dictionary, this means "to forbear or refrain voluntariy, and especially from an indulgence of the passions or appetites." So, it is up to the subjective judgment of the person involved - whether they maintain that there is no intention to get drunk? Would this mean no intention to drink sufficient to give what the Courts consider an illegal blood alcohol level reading - that's quite a few drinks! Does this mean that social drinking (with no *intention* to to get drunk), is O.K.? At home, I used to as a matter of routine, have one or two glasses of wine to relax with the evening meal. I thought the fifth precept meant abstaining from all substances *with the possibility* to cause lack of mindfulness. Is 'with the possibility' the same as 'having an intention'? I also stopped having an occasional lunch-time drink (single) with the work mob at the pub over the road from the hospital. At parties, instead of one glass of beer, I've been having have soft-drink. Have I been unnecessarily strict with myself? What about one marijuanna cone ... so widespread ... one or two doesn't cause problems and is very pleasantly beneficial for relaxation? Could one use one or two cones at night with no intention of using sufficient to affect the mind? metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time 25159 From: Date: Tue Sep 9, 2003 11:14am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Dhamma Issues , no 8. Slandering Hi, Nina (and Ken) - In a message dated 9/9/03 1:12:00 PM Eastern Daylight Time, nilo@e... writes: > K: On the other hand, a Sotapanna is incapable of wilful > >heedlessness. This manifests in his lifestyle as an > >inability to consume intoxicants. (?) But other kilesas > >continue to cause heedlessness. > N: It depends to what degree. > Lodewijk drinks wine with his meals and once a friend suggested that even a > sip is akusala kamma. I asked A. Sujin and she said: does he take wine in > order to get drunk? There is a difference here. > ============================ Hmm, good thing I don't have your fastidious friend looking over my shoulder - I'm afraid I'd be rather uncomfortable! Yes, intention is of major importance as regards kamma .. in fact, intention *is* kamma! ;-) As far as refraining from intoxicants, well, that is, as I see it, a training rule, not less but also not more. Major consumption of intoxicants is, of course, quite harmful to oneself and others, and should be avoided. As far as consuming no alcohol at all is concerned, I view that as useful practice. I adopted that practice about 15 years ago, I've found it useful, and I abide by it to this day despite my great enjoyment of wines, of beer, and even of a "deadly" multi-liquor concoction called Long Island Ice Tea! ;-)). As far as the other four sila practices for laypersons, well, I pretty much observe them, but certainly not perfectly. I am truthful, but I am not pristine in that regard. I don't kill .. I remove insects etc from the house instead of killing them, but if my family were endangered, I would certainly slip, even as regards life forms higher than insects. Frankly, "morality" is much more involved with the matters of killing, lying, stealing, and sexual impropiety than with a minor violation of the training precept about intoxicants. If Lodewijk doesn't "need" the wine, but merely enjoys it, then I am happy for him that he has that small pleasure and also has the good health that (especially red) wine provides. A toast to him!! With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 25160 From: Date: Tue Sep 9, 2003 4:11pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: kinds of understanding Robert K.: "Dear Larry, Could you cite where Buddhaghosa says he used the Vimuttimagga as one of his main references." Hi Robert, I don't know that Buddhadhosa says anything about his commentarial sources. This is the view of modern scholars. Do you disagree? Larry 25161 From: Date: Tue Sep 9, 2003 4:53pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism. XIV, 13, seeing and developing. Hi Nina, What you show below is what I thought at first also, but there is a problem with this. "Development" refers to different "functions" in these two paragraphs. What is being discussed is the four functions of path consciousness: 1. full understanding, 2. abandoning, 3. realizing, 4. two developments. These correspond to the 4 truths. Realizing is divided into realizing as seeing and realizing as development and is concerned with realizing nibbana. The two developments are basically mundane and supramundane 8-fold path. I notice that at Vism. XXII, 127 the two kinds of realizing are not called planes (bhumi), but in the Vimuttimagga there is a short paragraph at the end of the book that talks about the plane of seeing and the plane of development in the same way as at Vism. XXII, 127. In the Vimuttimagga these planes are not listed as "kinds of understanding". I think we just have to consider this an anomaly in being the only "kind of understanding" that doesn't have a mundane dimension. Larry ps: The editors of Vimuttimagga give several pali quotations that apparently refer to the plane of seeing and the plane of development: Petaka. 130, Netti 8, 14, 50. --------------------- Nina: Dear Larry, op 09-09-2003 02:58 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: I wonder if an alternate understanding of "the plane of seeing" and "the plane of development" could be the sense sphere and the three other spheres. My main reason for that interpretation is that all the other "kinds of understanding" are very broad, each including the others. N: In this context they both refer to lokuttara panna. See also the relevant subco. But when reading on Vis. XXII, 128: after your quote: <(d) And two developings are reckoned: but developing is also reckoned as twofild, namely as (i) mundane developing and (ii) as supramundane developing. (1) Herein, the arousing of mundane virtue, concentration and understanding, and the influencing of the continuity by their means, is mundane developing. And (ii) the arousing of supramundane virtue, concentration and understanding, and the influencing of the continuity by them is supramundane developing.> The Vis. then states that in this context (the end of Ch XXII) the supramundane developing is intended here. Nina. 25162 From: Date: Tue Sep 9, 2003 2:27pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Demystifying/understanding nama and rupa:Howard In a message dated 9/9/2003 12:21:20 AM Pacific Daylight Time, kenhowardau@y... writes: > Hi TG, > > You wrote to Nori: > -------------- > >The Buddha, to my knowledge, never explained > >impermanence in the fashion that > >abhidhamma thinking explains it. > -------------- > > Howard: This is a surprising thing to read. > My point here Howard was in reference to Nina's comment that "states arise and then immediately cease." I do not know whether any of the 7 Abhidhamma texts incorporate this view, but contemporary abhidhamma scholars seem to. It is this notion of things "arising then immediately passing away" that I do not agree with nor do I find any indication that the Buddha speaks in that regard. The notion of 'impermanence of states' as:-- arising and immediately passing away is something I have never seen in the suttas. If you have a reference for that I would love to see it. My view, which I believe is the way the suttas represent it, is that states are continually altering in form, some slowly, some fast depending on conditions. I believe things alter and wear out due to "conditional impacts." > -------------- > TG: >The Buddha said that:-- states arise, > >persist while changing, then cease. > -------------- > > Howard: Sounds like Abhidhamma to me. > I was not making any arguement regarding the above comment. If that sounds like abhidhamma that's great because it definitely is the sutta approach. > -------------- > TG: >This explanation fits common sense observation > >about the way things rise and fall apart. For example, > >we are born, grow old, and die. > -------------- > > Howard: Are you suggesting that the 'states' that rise, persist, > then cease, include living beings? > > You must be aware that the Buddha referred to living > beings only by way of conventional designation -- that in > reality, only the five khandhas exist. (?) > > In the reality taught by the Buddha, living beings do not > rise, persist and fall away. According to the Buddha (in > the suttas and the Abhidhamma), living beings are mere > conventional designations -- figures of speech. > Are you suggesting there are no living beings? To say there is no self or soul is one thing. To suggest there are no living beings is another. Living beings are "systems" that are composed of elements and aggregates and they indeed do get born, grow old, and die. Regarding peoples birth, growing old, and dying, the Buddha teaches this so often there's no point in looking for a single source. The Visuddhimagga speaks of developing insight into impermanence by contemplating "the first stage of life, the middle stage of life, the last stage of life." And the Visuddhimaga teaches many other insight devices that take into account the life span of a human. > --------------- > TG: >The clock on my wall is not arising and immediately > >falling away. > --------------- > > Howard: No, because 'clock' is a conventional designation for the > visible object (or audible object etc.) that arises in > the rupa khandha. > > What is 'arising and immediately falling away' is the > rupa that is conventionally designated 'clock,' . (No comment) > > ------------ > TG >Its just hanging there slowly wearing out due to > >conditions. > ------------- > > Howard: This is not Dhamma, this is mere, conventional reality. > As long as its reality I'll take it. > ------------- > TG: >Is it possible that there is some subatomic brewing > >stew that arises and ceases immediately afterward > -------------- Note, I did not deny that this was not possible, just that it is not necessarily meaningful for the Path. > > Howard: Yes, modern science says that matter rises, persists and > falls away in a nano-second. (Reminiscent of rupa, isn't > it?) > Do you think modern science has a complete understanding of matter in this regard? As far as I last read, modern science doesn't know for sure what an atom looks like, or whether photons are waves or particals or both or neither. They have lots of theories though and many of them are contradictory. > ------------ > TG: >and yet, states such as clocks, persist in a > >continuity of slow change? > ------------- > > Howard: You seem to be rejecting modern science in favour of > Newtonian science. (Neither is Dhamma, of course.) > "My Theory" of the rise and fall of states is:-- "This being, that is. With the arising of this, that arises. This not being, that is not. With the ceasing of this, that ceases." Actually its the Buddha's Teaching, not my theory, and its the primary model by which I view the world...conditionality, impermanence, no-self, etc. > --------------- > TG: >Perhaps but I'm not sure what the point is or how it > >helps in insight development. > -------------- > > Howard: There can be no insight into nama and rupa while you are > thinking (in mere figures of speech). > Based on this line of reasoning, 95% or perhaps more of the Four Great Nikayas are "insight junk" because they rely on "mere figures of speech." Or perhaps another possibility is that insight can grow based on analogies of conventional things. :) > -------------- > TG: >The world is not perceived that way. > --------------- > > Howard: It is by a Buddha. > Glad you could clarify that part of a Buddha's experience. ;) > --------------- > TG: >I don't think insight is about "imagining theories." > --------------- > > Howard: The only imagined theories here are "living being" and > "clock." > Ouch! > --------------- > TG: >I have also never heard a reasonable explanation for > >what the cause of this type of impermanence is. (But > >would love to.) > ----------------- > > Howard: Why do you want to know the cause of impermanence? Knowing the cause of impermanence can clarify the entire canon. Impermanence is one of the most important teachings of the Buddha. It amazing how many "Buddhists" disregard investigating its cause. > > --------------- > TG: >I like your idea about Nama being based on Rupa. After > >all, originally there was no life on this planet, there > >was just Rupa. And Nama "grew out of that." > ------------- > > Howard: To borrow your words; 'The Buddha, to my knowledge, never > explained impermanence in the fashion that [your] > thinking explains it.' > Now that just didn't seem kind at all. LOL But here's a few quotes to think about that support my above comment... "eye… ear… nose… tongue… body… mind; are derived from the Four Great Elements..." (Patisambhidamagga) treatise 1, paragraphs 371-377 "…any object whatsoever - that is of the Four Great Elements or derived from them." (The Buddha…GradualSayings Vol. 5, Pg 224) "This body of mine, made of material form, consisting of the four great elements, procreated by a mother and father, and built up out of boiled rice and porridge, is subject to impermanence, to being worn and rubbed away, to dissolution and disintegration, and this consciousness of mine is supported by it and bound up with it." (The Buddha. . . Middle Length Discourses of the Buddha, pg. 642, Mahasakuludayi Sutta, The Greater Discourse to Sakuludayin.) > Kind regards, > Ken H > TG 25163 From: Date: Tue Sep 9, 2003 4:24pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Demystifying/understanding nama and rupa In a message dated 9/8/2003 11:49:01 PM Pacific Daylight Time, rjkjp1@y... writes: > Dear TG, > Just a couple of points. The Abhidhamma is the teaching of the > Buddha so I think he must have explained it that way. > Hi Robert I don't consider that a fact that is known with any certainty, and due to the extremely disparate styles between the Suttas and Vinaya Pitaka vs Abhidhamma Pitaka, I doubt it. > Where did you read that nama(mentality) grew out of rupa(matter)? > > In the Digha Nikaya > (On Knowledge of Beginnings, trans. Walshe, 1987) the Buddha very > tersely gives an account of the origins of this universe, the > planet, and of the human race: > ""There comes a time when, sooner or later, after a very long > period, this universe contracts [and is destroyed]. At a time of > contraction beings are mostly born in the Brahma world. And there > they dwell, mind-made, feeding on delight, self-luminous, moving > through the air, glorious - and they stay like that for a very long > period. But sooner or later, after a very long period, the universe > begins to expand again…. At that period [when a new universe is > beginning] there was just one mass of fluidity and all was darkness, > blinding darkness. Neither moon nor sun appeared (or; were manifest) > no constellations or stars appeared, night and day were not > distinguished, nor months and fortnights, no years or seasons, and > no male or female, beings being reckoned just as beings. And sooner > or later, after a very long period, savoury earth spread itself over > the water where those beings were. It looked just like the skin that > spreads itself over hot milk as it cools...." (1987, pp.409-410). > Later the beings taste the nutritive foam. They then take on coarse > material bodies. > These 'mind-made' beings, in the brahma world have no rupa. The > earth is already formed when they take rebirth there. > RobertK > Interesting sutta. It requires 100% faith and 0% direct knowledge to accept it as fact. I think I'll pass in trying to unravel it here. But to answer your question re: nama based on rupa, I'll leave the same three quotes here that I left for Howard so that they will have more likelihood of being seen. I don't think they'll be seen as absolute proof but they will be something to think about. "eye… ear… nose… tongue… body… mind; are derived from the Four Great Elements..." (Patisambhidamagga) treatise 1, paragraphs 371-377 "…any object whatsoever - that is of the Four Great Elements or derived from them." (The Buddha…GradualSayings Vol. 5, Pg 224) "This body of mine, made of material form, consisting of the four great elements, procreated by a mother and father, and built up out of boiled rice and porridge, is subject to impermanence, to being worn and rubbed away, to dissolution and disintegration, and this consciousness of mine is supported by it and bound up with it." (The Buddha. . . Middle Length Discourses of the Buddha, pg. 642, Mahasakuludayi Sutta, The Greater Discourse to Sakuludayin.) TG 25164 From: Andrew Date: Tue Sep 9, 2003 8:40pm Subject: Re: Demystifying/understanding nama and rupa:Howard Hi TG Thanks for your nice clarification to KenH. I only have one comment to make below. You wrote: > > > -------------- > > TG: >The world is not perceived that way. > > --------------- > > > > > Howard: It is by a Buddha. > > > > TG: Glad you could clarify that part of a Buddha's experience. ;) > I can't clarify a Buddha's experience by direct knowing but I came across a nice simile in the Maha-Assapura Sutta, which I will paraphrase (hopefully accurately). Whereas a worldling might stand on the shore of a great lake and see water, an Arahant would see water, pebbles, seashells, shoals of fish resting and moving about. The ability to see in terms of paramattha dhammas is so alien to we deeply habituated in conventional thought. Just imagine an angry person shouting at you. What if you could comprehend those realities in terms of paramattha dhammas. Wouldn't it make such an enormous difference? That's why the Buddha could give a radical teaching in the suttas like the simile of the saw (which caused a bit of a stir on this list not so long ago). Enough rambling. Metta to you all. Andrew 25165 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Sep 9, 2003 9:14pm Subject: Issues of Dhamma, no 10. Three meanings of Satipatthana Issues of Dhamma, no 10 Chapter 10 Three Meanings of Satipatthåna. Issue of Analysis: Does satipatthåna classified as: ²the teacher¹s threefold surpassing of delight and aversion with regard to his disciples who practise² mean the path by which the Buddha and his disciples went? Conclusion regarding the analysis of this issue: ²The teacher¹s threefold surpassing of delight and aversion with regard to his disciples who practise² means indeed the path by which the Buddha and his disciples went. The sources which support this conclusion: 1.³Middle length Sayings² III, no 137 : Discourse on the Analysis of the Sixfold Sense-field. 2.The Papañcasúdaní, Commentary to the Satipatthånasutta, Middle Length Sayings. 3. The Commentary to the Book of Analysis, the Dispeller of Delusion (I, Ch 7, A. Suttanta Division). The explanation of the reason for this conclusion: These three sources explain the meaning of the three satipatthånas in the same way. We read in the ³Discourse on the Analysis of the Sixfold Sense-field² (Middle length Sayings² III, no 137): When it is said, ³There are three arousings of mindfulness each of which an ariyan disciple practises and, practising which, is an ariyan who is a teacher fit to instruct a group,² in reference to what is it said? As to this, monks, a teacher teaches dhamma to his disciples, compassionate, seeking their welfare, out of compassion, saying: ³This is for your welfare, this is for your happiness.² But his disciples do not listen, do not lend ear, do not prepare their minds for profound knowledge and, turning aside, move away from the teacher¹s instruction. Herein, monks, the Tathågata is neither delighted, he does not experience delight, nor is he annoyed, but he dwells mindful and clearly conscious (with sati-sampajañña). This, monks, is the first arousing of mindfulness that the ariyan practises and, practising it, is an ariyan who is a teacher fit to instruct a group. And again, monks, a teacher teaches dhamma to his disciples... saying: ²This is for your welfare, this is for your happiness.² Some of his disciples do not listen, do not lend ear, do not prepare their minds for profound knowledge and, turning aside, move away from the teacher¹s instruction. But some disciples listen, lend ear, prepare their minds for profound knowledge and, not turning aside, do not move away from the teacher¹s instruction. Herein, monks, the Tathågata is neither delighted, he does not experience delight, and neither is he depressed nor does he experience depression. Having ousted both delight and depression, he dwells with equanimity, mindful and clearly conscious. This, monks, is the second arousing of mindfulness that the ariyan practises and, practising it, is an ariyan who is a teacher fit to instruct a group. And again, monks, a teacher teaches dhamma to his disciples... saying: ²This is for your welfare, this is for your happiness.² His disciples listen, lend ear, prepare their minds for profound knowledge and, not turning aside, do not move from the teacher¹s instruction. Herein, monks, the Tathågata is delighted and he experiences delight but he dwells untroubled, mindful and clearly conscious. This, monks, is the third arousing of mindfulness that the ariyan practises and, practising it, is an ariyan who is a teacher fit to instruct a group. When it is said: ³There are three arousings of mindfulness each of which an ariyan disciple practises and, practising which, is an ariyan who is a teacher fit to instruct a group,² it is said in reference to this. In the ³Papañcasúdaní², Commentary to the Satipatthånasutta, and in the Commentary to the Book of Analysis, the Dispeller of Delusion (I, Ch 7, A. Suttanta Division) it is said: ³...There are three kinds of foundation of mindfulness: 1. the domain of mindfulness (sati gocaro) 2. the Master¹s threefold surpassing of resentment and gratification (delight) as regards the entry of his disciples [on the way of practice] . 3. mindfulness (sati). As to the domain of mindfulness, sati gocara, this refers to the object of sati, that is: the body, feelings, cittas, dhammas. As to mindfulness, sati, this refers to sati cetasika that is aware of the characteristics of realities. As regards the third kind, the Master¹s threefold surpassing of resentment and gratification (delight) as regards the entry of his disciples [on the way of practice], we read further on: ³As regards the passage: ŒThere are three foundations of mindfulness which the Noble One (ariyan) cultivates, and cultivating which the Noble One is a master who is worthy to instruct his flock, here it is the threefold surpassing by the Master of attachment and aversion as regards the entry of his disciples [on the way]¹ that is called the Œfoundation of mindfulness¹. The meaning of that is: Œfoundation¹ (patthåna) is because of what should be founded (patthapetabba); Œbecause of what should be made to occur.¹ ² Summarizing, satipatthåna which is the kind of ³the Master¹s threefold surpassing of resentment and gratification (delight) as regards the entry of his disciples [on the way of practice]², has the following meaning: it is the way along which the Buddha and his disciples went. ****** (translated from Thai0 Nina. 25166 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Sep 9, 2003 9:14pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Pali and Sanskrit Dear Sarah, I meant the quote about the commentaries being rehearsed together with the Tipitaka at the Councils. When you have time, perhaps you could retrieve it? Nina. op 09-09-2003 15:26 schreef Sarah op sarahdhhk@y...: > p.s the other quotes I gave which you asked about were from the > Sammohavinodani, Nanamoli transl, ch11 ‘Class of the Path’, p.39,40. > > (Sv320 etc - 25167 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Sep 9, 2003 9:14pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Demystifying/understanding nama and rupa Dear Nori, op 09-09-2003 00:31 schreef norakat147 op nori_public@a...: > you said, regarding rupa: "yes, but it exists only for a moment and > then falls away. Its existing does not have to depend on our > experiencing, in fact, it has to arise shortly before the nama that > experiences it. Rupa is weak at its arising moment and can then not > be object of experience." > > So do you mean to say the chair I sit in does not exist all the time? > What is the evidence which led Buddha or anyone else to believe rupa > arises and falls away? N: all conditioned dhammas are impermanent and dukkha, all dhammas (nibbana included) are non-self: Dhammapada vs 277-280. Rupa arises because of conditions. Four factors produce it: kamma, or citta, or temperature or food. What arises because of conditions has to fall away. The teachings of the Buddha are contained in the Tipitaka, that means, also the Abhidhamma is included. The more you read, the more you will discover that the Buddha's teachings are the same in the three parts of the scriptures. The chair you sit in is composed of infinitesimally tiny rupas which arise and fall. You do not notice it, because so long as there are conditions, the rupa that has fallen away is replaced by a new one.When you have died, the rupas of the corpse conditioned by temperature still go on arising and falling away. No soul transmigrates. The last citta, the dying consciousness, falls away and is succeeded by a next one in a next life. No longer the same person, but all that was accumulated in the last life is carried on to the next life. So there is a connection with the past lives in this way. Nori: Also: While rupa can exist independent of (without) nama; does nama > depend on rupa to exist? i.e. our body including our brain, nervous > system, etc. is made up of rupa (unconscious elemental > matter/atoms/molecules) from the earth ... Nina: in the plane where there are nama and rupa, like this plane, nama can condition rupa and rupa can condition nama. Nori: This (the latter; nama dependence on rupa) is evident by experiments > of the body. Adding/taking away hormones and other brain chemicals > can create/conjure/effect (artificial) feelings. lobotomies, old age, > brain experiments, etc. have shown to effect ones perception, > thinking and state of conciousness. Nina: Right, see above. Nina. 25168 From: Date: Tue Sep 9, 2003 5:41pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Demystifying/understanding nama and rupa:Howard In a message dated 9/9/2003 8:42:58 PM Pacific Daylight Time, athel60@t... writes: > The ability to see in terms of paramattha dhammas is so alien to we > deeply habituated in conventional thought. Just imagine an angry > person shouting at you. What if you could comprehend those realities > in terms of paramattha dhammas. Wouldn't it make such an enormous > difference? > That's why the Buddha could give a radical teaching in the suttas > like the simile of the saw (which caused a bit of a stir on this list > not so long ago). > Enough rambling. Metta to you all. > Andrew > Hi Andrew Agreed. I'll even go further and say that "seeing things as paramattha dhammas" is only a stepping stone ... and even this vision needs to be overcome in order to free the mind from attachments. TG 25169 From: Sarah Date: Tue Sep 9, 2003 10:37pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Pali and Sanskrit Dear Nina, --- nina van gorkom wrote: > Dear Sarah, > I meant the quote about the commentaries being rehearsed together with > the > Tipitaka at the Councils. When you have time, perhaps you could retrieve > it? > Nina. ..... I think the quote you refer to is in the first of these posts. If it was another or if the highlighted links don't work, pls let me know and I'll check again. ***** Commentaries (ancient) 17904, 19897 ***** Metta, Sarah p.s You're welcome to requote from any of my posts;-) ====== ****** 25170 From: Sarah Date: Tue Sep 9, 2003 11:47pm Subject: Re: [dsg] thinking Hi Larry, Sorry for the delay but at least you’ve kept busy talking to others;-) --- LBIDD@w... wrote: > Hi Sarah, > > I would say discursive thinking (vicara) is an object of insight > knowledge because it rises and falls. .... It’s true that -- at least theoretically-- any paramattha dhamma (i.e dhamma that rises and falls apart from nibbana)can be the object of insight, including any cetasikas (mental factors) such as vicara. .... >If you agree to that then possibly > we could say "tree" doesn't rise and fall as a concept but does rise and > fall as thought-conception (vitakka) and discursive thinking (vicara). > How's that? .... Not bad.... ;-) I’d say ‘tree’ doesn’t rise and fall as anything. Whilst vitakka and vicara arise and fall with the citta they accompany, they merely perform their functions of touching and sustaining the citta on the object (such as the concepts in this case). They are not the concept in anyway and I think ‘thought-conception’ may be confusing as translation. It is referring to the touching on or thinking about concepts, but vitakka and vicara actually accompany all cittas apart from the dvi-panca vinnana cittas of seeing, hearing etc from memory [i.e not just concepts touched upon]. In the quote I gave to Howard yesterday from CMA, it mentioned that mental objects are sixfold: sensitive matter, subtle matter, consciousness, mental factors, nibbana and concepts. Vitakka and vicara are mental factors. Tree is always a concept. Hence, vitakka and vicara have characteristics which can be known. Tree never does. thanks for providing the Nyantiloka refs. I know you’ll let me know if you disagree with what I’ve written here;-) Let me just add a paragraph from a post of Jon’s (to Nina and Icaro): Jon: “Thus the perception of the experience of things such as trees and people is a creation of the mind, in the sense that that is not how the world is actually being experienced at that moment. Saying that it's a creation of the mind, however, is not meant to imply that it is 'purely imagined', since even the enlightened being similarly creates objects out of sense-door experiences. It simply means it's a perception that relies on inferences drawn from the way things are actually experienced. There is nothing 'wrong' with this, except that for the worldling there are conditions for such perception to be accompanied by wrong view.” Metta, Sarah ======= 25171 From: norakat147 Date: Wed Sep 10, 2003 0:31am Subject: Are the Visuddhimagga & Abhidhamma bad interpretations ? hi all, Since I have heard much talk and references about the Abhidhamma and Visuddhimagga here, I did some further investigation. There seem to be many opponents to the Visuddhimagga & Abhidhamma. I will cut & paste part of an article from one source which is an article on Buddhadasa (I think the topic and articles would interest some people; Also it would be interesting to hear opinions on this as I have heard similiar accusations) : ----------- Traditional Scriptures From the doctrinal point of view the brunt of Buddhadasa's attack is directed toward Buddhaghosa, one of the greatest Buddhist commentators in the 5th century A.D., who is most acclaimed for providing a commentary and interpretative structure for the Theravada tradition, and the scholastism of the Abhidhamma. Buddsadasa observes that in Thailand various scriptural commentaries which were later completed replaced the original Pali Text as a source of religious authority, especially Visuddhimagga (the Path of Purity), a classical scriptural commentary of Buddhaghosa which is one of the most important texts of Buddhist study in Thailand. He declares that Visudhimagga is one of the oldest historical evidence showing gradual use of Hindu concepts in interpreting Buddhist teachings. Buddhadasa illustrates this argument through historical evidence, such as Buddha's Own Word, the Suttas in the Tipitaka. In his book he wrote the title "What is Paticcasamuppada" (1971) showing the distinction between what he considers the interpretation of Buddhist teaching using Hindu concepts and in the Buddhist sense. He is convinced that uncritical adherence to the Buddhaghosa orthodoxy has obscured a real encounter with the Buddha's dhamma. The criticism of Visuddhimagga implies that Buddhadasa goes against the belief and understanding of not only most Thai Buddhists but also Buddhists in general. Consequently, he is condemned by some groups of monks and laymen as an ungreatful and heretical person who destroys Buddhism.27 On the other hand, his book has became an important reference which most of Buddhist students have to take into consideration. Buddhadasa does not stop there, he does what nobody has dared to do, that is, he criticizes the Abhidhamma Pitaka, one of the cardinal tripartie scriptures in the Tipitaka: Abhidhamma, Sutta, and Vinaya Pitaka. It is a fact that most of Thai Buddhist students believe that Abhidhamma is the Buddha's Own Word. They prefer to study this more carefully than the other two scriptures (Sutta and Vinaya), especially since World War II, when the Burmese tradition of studying and practicing Buddhism was introduced into Thailand. Buddhadasa insists that Abhidhamma was completed about 1300 years after the death of Buddha. He further criticizes that a large part of Abhidhamma is not only in line with Buddha's dhamma but it is also antithetical to the profound Buddhist teaching.28 "What is Abhidhamma" (1971), is one of Buddhadasa's important research works which refers to many sources of evidence taken from the Tipitaka, including the existing opinion of both eastern and western Buddhist scholars like Phra Nanatilaka (a German monk), Professor T.W Rhys Davids, who established the Pali-Text Society in London, and Hary Singh Gour, a well-known Indian scholar. His book is regarded as the most important operation on the Thai Theravada Buddhism. As a result of this criticism, Buddhadasa is opposed by some conservative monks and laymen. He is accused of being a great sinner, as daring to criticize the Abhidhamma Pitaka as wrong. However, the Abhidhamma Pitaka has been discredited in the view of many monks and laymen. The prestige of the Abhidhamma has been affected immensely ever since. Buddhadasa also criticizes the Buddhologists including most eastern and western scholars who write about Buddhism because he feels that their writings contain many non-Buddhist concepts. They generally use Hindu concepts to explain Buddhism, especially the concepts of kamma, birth and rebirth.29 He acknowledges that it is very difficult to clearly distinguish between Buddhist and Hindu concept through only literal study of doctrine or historical evidences. This is because one of the most difficult points centres on the application of the same word which carries completely different meanings and goals: one meaning (the meaning in Hindu sense) maintaining the "self" or attachment to "self"; whereas another meaning (the meaning in Buddhism) maintains "non-self" and demolishing the idea of "self". This point, for Buddhadasa, is a border line between Buddhist and Hindu conception. ------------------------ 27) Suan Usom Foundation, ed., Fifty Years of Suan Mokkh. Bangkok: Suan Usom Foundation, 1982, p. 113. 28) Buddhadasa Bhikkhu, Aphetham Kau Arai [What is Abhidhamma], (Bangkok: Dhammabucha 1974), pp. 73-74. ------------------------ According to T.W. Rhys Davids "... the Vinaya and the four Nikayas (with the possible exception of the supplements) was complete within about a century of the Buddha's death" I understand the Visuddhimagga & Abhidhamma came much, much, later. In fact, I also read from many sources that opponents to the Abhidhamma existed from its inception. Is not the totality of the Buddhas teachings contained within the four Nikayas ??? Why read and reference later re-interpretations and commentary ? Comments are appreciated. metta, nori 25172 From: Sarah Date: Wed Sep 10, 2003 0:33am Subject: Re: [dsg] Things worth adhering to Hi Andrew, Good to see your sutta quotes and reflections. I'm not sure how you've found anything worth adhering to in this one to justify your subject heading however;-) --- Andrew wrote: > Hi folks > Reading through my Majjhima Nikaya, I came across some perplexing > language in the Shorter Discourse on the Destruction of Craving > (Culatanhasankhaya Sutta). Sakka, ruler of gods, has asked Buddha > how a bhikkhu gets liberated from the destruction of craving. Buddha > answers: > "... a bhikkhu has heard that nothing is worth adhering to. [Having > heard this] he directly knows everything. ..... adhered to - refers to clinging - it is the sutta on the destruction of craving after all;-) B.Bodhi's note 396 quoting from MA, refers to the commentary to MN. It helps to distinguish between comy notes and a translator’s comments imho. “MA explains this passage as follows: “Everything” (sabbe dhammaa) is the five aggregates, the twelve bases, the eighteen elements [S: i.e all conditioned paramatha dhammas that can be ‘directly known’]. These are ‘not worth adhering to’ by way of craving and views because they turn out in actuality to be different from the way they are grasped: grasped as permanent, pleasurable, and self, they turn out to be impermanent, suffering, and not self. He ‘directly knows’ them as impermanent, suffering, and not self, and ‘fully understands’ them by scrutinising them in the same way. ‘Contemplating impermanenence,’ etc is accomplished by the insight knowledges of rise and fall and of destruction and disappearance. ‘He does not cling’ to any formation by way of craving and views, does not become agitated because of craving, and personlly attains Nibbana by the extinguishing of all defilements’.” [S: ie arahantship. Also note: everything to be known only refers to paramattha dhammas (actualities), not to concepts.] .... > In fact, you CAN'T cling to them > because they have changed even before you try. .... Clinging and wrong views are far craftier than we might realise; they dart in and out immediately, taking the same realities or concepts about them as objects. To take visible object as example: After seeing consciousness has fallen away, the javana cittas in the same sense door process and accompanied by clinging can still ‘cling to’ visible object (rupa lasting for 17 cittas). Immediately afterwards,the same visible object can be experienced in the mind door process also by cittas rooted in lobha (attachment). Then of course there can be further mind door processes with clinging to the concepts experienced on account of the visible objects which have long since fallen away as you say. .... > I was a bit confused by the use of "adhering" instead of "clinging". > Why not say "nothing is worth clinging to"? Have I missed some > distinction here? ... I don’t think so. The Pali (I think) is; “Idha devànaminda bhikkhuno sutaü hoti: sabbe dhammà nàlaü abhinivesàyàti” ‘abhinivesaayaati’ from abhinivisati: to cling to; to adhere (Buddhadatta dict) - nothing should be clung to (?) ..... Have I missed the point? .... Not in terms of the clinging, but maybe in terms of the tenacity of clinging and views regardless of the speed in which realities arise and fall away;-) Good sutta and qus. Thanks. Look f/w to more. Hope you saw what I wrote about the raft simile as I know you also been known to take a DSG break;-) Let me know anytime you disagree or have a different understanding. Metta, Sarah p.s like Nina, I enjoy ALL the details about your Cooran weekend discussions. I mean we didn’t even have a progress report on Smokey Joe’s diet...;-) And where’s Azita and the famous article I’m wondering....Steve??? ========== 25173 From: rjkjp1 Date: Wed Sep 10, 2003 0:34am Subject: [dsg] Re: Demystifying/understanding nama and rupa --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, TGrand458@a... wrote: >> > Dear TG, > > Just a couple of points. The Abhidhamma is the teaching of the > > Buddha so I think he must have explained it that way. > > -------------------- > > Hi Robert > > I don't consider that a fact that is known with any certainty, and due to the > extremely disparate styles between the Suttas and Vinaya Pitaka vs Abhidhamma > Pitaka, I doubt it. > _______________________ > >> > In the Digha Nikaya > > (On Knowledge of Beginnings, trans. Walshe, 1987) the Buddha very At a time of > > contraction beings are mostly born in the Brahma world. And there > > they dwell, mind-made, feeding on delight, self-luminous, moving > > through the air, glorious - and they stay like that for a very long > > period. > > ++++++++++++++++++++ TG: Interesting sutta. It requires 100% faith and 0% direct knowledge to accept > it as fact. ______________________ Dear TG, I quoted this because I thought you accepted the four nikayas as being authoritative: TG to Nori: "If Buddhism has you interested to this point; it would be a good idea to study the SuttaPitaka (Primarily the Four Great Nikayas) as these are almost universally accredited to the historical Buddha." _______________ TG: But to answer > your question re: nama based on rupa, I'll leave the same three quotes here that > I left for Howard so that they will have more likelihood of being seen. I > don't think they'll be seen as absolute proof but they will be something to > think about. "This body of mine, made of material form, consisting of the four great > elements, procreated by a mother and father, and built up out of boiled rice > and > porridge, is subject to impermanence, to being worn and rubbed away, to > dissolution and disintegration, and this consciousness of mine is supported > by it and > bound up with it." > (The Buddha. . . Middle Length Discourses of the Buddha, pg. 642, > Mahasakuludayi Sutta, The Greater Discourse to Sakuludayin.) > > TG ____________________ The commentaries and Abhidhamma certainly recognize a strong relationship between mind and matter. In fact in realms where there are five aggregates, such as the animal and human realm nama (mentality) cannot exist without materiality: ""The mental and material are twins and each supports the other; When one breaks up they both break up through interconditionality. And just as when sound occurs having as its support a drum that is beaten by the stick, then the drum is one and the sound is another, the drum and the sound are not mixed up together, the drum is void of the sound and the sound is void of the drum, so too, when mentality occurs having as its support the materiality called the physical base, the door and the object, then the materiality is one and the mentality is another, the mentality and the materiality are not mixed up together, the mentality is void of the materiality and the materiality is void of the mentality; yet the mentality occurs due to the materiality as the sound occurs due to the drum. "Visuddhimagga (trans.Nanamoli, 1975, XVIII 32). However the causes for matter are 4 and some matter (cittasamutthana) has as its condition nama. RobertK > > > > Digha Nikaya 11 Kevatta (Kevaddha) Sutta [The Mind-made Body) "With his mind thus concentrated, purified, and bright, unblemished, free from defects, pliant, malleable, steady, and attained to imperturbability, he directs and inclines it to creating a mind-made body. From this body he creates another body, endowed with form, made of the mind, complete in all its parts, not inferior in its faculties. Just as if a man were to draw a reed from its sheath. The thought would occur to him: 'This is the sheath, this is the reed. The sheath is one thing, the reed another, but the reed has been drawn out from the sheath.' Or as if a man were to draw a sword from its scabbard. The thought would occur to him: 'This is the sword, this is the scabbard. The sword is one thing, the scabbard another, but the sword has been drawn out from the scabbard.' Or as if a man were to pull a snake out from its slough. The thought would occur to him: 'This is the snake, this is the slough. The snake is one thing, the slough another, but the snake has been pulled out from the slough.' In the same way -- with his mind thus concentrated, purified, and bright, unblemished, free from defects, pliant, malleable, steady, and attained to imperturbability, the monk directs and inclines it to creating a mind-made body. From this body he creates another body, endowed with form, made of the mind, complete in all its parts, not inferior in its faculties. 25174 From: Sarah Date: Wed Sep 10, 2003 1:07am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:Vism XIV, 7 (4) Hi Toby, I was most impressed by the detail and accuracy (imho) in your post on concepts. Again, apologies for being slow to get back to you on this and the other very detailed post to me on self-view and ignorance which I also look f/w to discussing further with you. I agreed with most your points in the one on concepts. I’m just extracting a few details for further clarification or discussion as I see it. --- torloff87048 wrote: > > Concepts do not exist in any form. They are a conventional reality. To > see why this is so, consider a related topic: Words. Words do not > exist, either. Why not? Let's apprehend what is happening here and now > and see that words as independent realities having their own nature are > nowhere to be found. There are conditions giving rise to verbal > intimation on my part. This is rupa born of citta. No words there, > just rupa. .... Good. .... >Through many processes of the four elements, this rupa > eventually gives rise to rupa that is manifested as color before your > eyes. Your eye-contact with that color gives rise to various cittas and > cetasikas. The objects of those cittas are always one of citta, > cetasika, rupa or Nibbana. ..... Visible object is also an element, always arising in a kalapa with the four principle rupas and also odour, flavour and nutritive essence. Visible object and these three depend on the four principle ones, but arise together as I understand. Perhaps I misunderstood you. Also, while it is true that eye-contact and visible object/colour are essential conditions for the arising of cittas and cetasikas, other conditions are also essential. Seeing consciousness and accompanying cetasikas are the result of (conditioned by) kamma, for example. I’ve just been writing to Howard and Larry about objects of citta which can and do include concepts. Perhaps you were referring to seeing consciousness here which only ever experiences visible object. .... >Some of these objects are previous cetasikas > of perception, conditioned by previous experiences such as with verbal > intimation, citta and cetasika. Speaking conventionally, we say that > these objects are "marked by perception" and we might imagine that a > word is such a mark. But this is a deceptive model. What we are really > doing is perceiving a previous perception. The previous perception is > the mark we are perceiving. .... Not sure here. Sanna (perception) is a universal cetasika, so it performs its task of marking with every citta. Therefore it ‘marks’ namas, rupas, concepts and even nibbana when it arises with the lokuttara cittas. When we talk about thinking, I believe sanna is marking concepts at these moments. I agreed with most of the rest of your post, but as there is already so much detail, I’ll leave it here for now in case you have further comments so far or in case I’ve misunderstood anything or have made any mistakes. Before we discussed in detail on DSG about ayatanas(sense fields -objects to be known) and arammanas (objects of consciousness including concepts). See UP under ayatanas. Very complex. ... >There > are no words or concepts anywhere to be found. > > Just my 2 cents... ..... An excellent 2 cents worth;-) Look forward to many more such bargains and discussions. Many thanks indeed for the feedback. Metta, Sarah p.s If you’ve really only been studying the texts for 6mths you may prove to be the exception to the ‘slow learner’ rule today;-) ======= 25175 From: Sarah Date: Wed Sep 10, 2003 1:51am Subject: Re: [dsg] Free-will (Was Kamma) Hi Anthony, It’s good to hear from you and I hope you don’t mind a reply from me too. --- Antony Woods wrote: > At the end of your post you wrote: > I read some of the "Useful Posts" on free-will. > I believe that the Patthana would explain things if I could access and > understand it. > What does it mean that new kamma is conditioned if not by the past? .... Yes, I’m sure that if we could really appreciate the Patthana we wouldn’t need these discussions. On a very simple level, the Patthana discusses the complex interactions between the various conditioning states and those conditioned. With more and more understanding of conditions and the interplay of these, there is less and less tendency to look for or cling to any idea of self or ‘free-will’ imho. All realities arising now, including ‘new kamma’ such as attachment or anger and their accompanying intention are conditioned by past and present factors. However, whereas some realities such as seeing or hearing consciousness and some physical phenomena are conditioned or caused by past kamma, what you refer to as ‘new kamma’ is not considered ‘result’ in this sense. This does not mean that it is not conditioned by other complex factors, however. ..... > > I transcribed the following quote from Thanissaro Bhikkhu: > > "The Buddha's teachings on karma are interesting because > it's a combination of causality and free-will. .... Even what he refers to as ‘free-will’ is conditioned. No self to have an will, free or otherwise. The mental state of cetana (intention) responsible for kamma is not ‘free’. ..... > This quote from the Buddha seems to suggest free-will: > > "Having approached the priests & contemplatives who hold that... > whatever a > person experiences... is all caused by what was done in the past,' [...] > When > one falls back on what was done in the past as being essential, monks, > there > is > no desire, no effort [at the thought], 'This should be done. This > shouldn't > be > done.' > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an03-061.html .... This first view given was that of the Jains referring to all experience being the result of past kamma. As the Buddha explains after refuting the various views, the Dhamma refers to the various elements(dhatu)to show there are no phenomena to be known other than namas and rupas (mental and physical phenomena). He then teaches dependent origination and the 4 Noble Truths, showing the intricate nature of causes and conditions. You’ve touched on a very important and difficult topic, Anthony. I hope you’ll continue to discuss this area as we can all benefit. If you find these explanations unsatisfactory or wish to question or ask for clarification on what you’re reading in the suttas or UP, I’d be very glad. Perhaps RobK or Chris will add more too. Metta, Sarah p.s thinking of Sydney - usu. we get there at least once a year, but not for now ===== 25176 From: rjkjp1 Date: Wed Sep 10, 2003 1:58am Subject: Vimuttimagga --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@w... wrote: > Robert K.: "Dear Larry, > Could you cite where Buddhaghosa says he used the Vimuttimagga as one of > his main references." > > Hi Robert, > > I don't know that Buddhadhosa says anything about his commentarial > sources. This is the view of modern scholars. Do you disagree? > __________ Dear Larry, Throughout Buddhaghosa's commentaries he mentions his sources from time to time: In the vinaya attakatha for example he says: "I learned three Sinhalese commentaries - the Mahaatthakattha , Maha- paccari kurundi from the famed elder known as Buddhamitta....." Or for the Digh Nikaya: he used "the commetary that was in the beginning chanted [at the first council], and was brought to the sihal island by the arahnat mahinda the great and rendered into the sihala tongue for the benefit of the islanders" So often he refers to the Porana(ancients) and pubbacariya (former teachers). In fact in the whole of the Visuddhimagga there is only one occasion (see xxxii) where he gives his own opinion. And he also says that 'one's own opinion' is the least trustworthy(DA 567-8). He was so careful to follow what the ancients handed down. _ As for the Vimuttimagga I gave it only a cursory study over a decade ago so probably cannot give a fair account. Still I felt at that time that, while it had many truths , on several occasions it was in disagreement with subtle points of Dhamma. From Skilling 171-210, Journal Pali Text Society volXX "The position of the Vimuttimagga is closer to that of the Vaibhasikas who include all 4 elements in sprastavyayayatana. A comparison of the Dhammasangani list with that of the Vimuttimagga shows ..the important difference that the later adds 3 items : rupassa jati vathu rupa and middha. Although the visuddhmagga attributes the heresy of middh-rupa to .."some" (ekaccanam matena) the tika tells us that this refers to the Abhayagirivasins. Thus the inclusion of both middh-rupa in both the Chinese version and the tibetan extracts of the Vimuttimagga is evidence that the Vimutinmagga contains classifications that were rejected by the Mahavihara but accepted by the Abhayagiri Skilling concudes that the Vimuttimagga probably came from the Abhayagiri sect. He notes p200 "these are not minor points." ___ On the Abhayagiri sect: The mahavamsa notes (p267 -268)p264 that a King helped to purify the sasana by suppression of a heresy. He seized bhikkhus dwelling in the Abhayagiri.."who had turned to the Vetulya doctrine and were like a thorn in the doctrine of the Buddha and he excommunciated them." It then notes that the thera sanghamitta (from south India was embittered against the good bhikkus of the Mahavihara and bidded his time until the good king died and the next one jetthatissa died. Then his time was ripe when the younger brother of Jetthatissa (mahasena ) came to power That the Thera sanghamitta , who dwelt at the Abhayagiri told the king that the Mahavihara teach a wrong doctrine and so the King made a proclamation telling the popolulation that they could not feed any monk from the Mahavihara. The good monks thus abandoned it. Sanghamitta then had the King destroy the mahavihara and "carried away the materials of the buildings hence to the Abhagiri and by means of the many buidings that were borne away from the mahavihara the Abhayagiri became rich in buildings, Holding fast to his evil friend the thera sanghmitta and to his servant Sona the King wrought many a deed of wrong>...then by the ruthless Thera sanghamitta the Abhayagiri-vihara was made stately to see" Robertk 25177 From: Sarah Date: Wed Sep 10, 2003 2:01am Subject: Re: [dsg] Pali and Sanskrit Dear Nina, --- Sarah wrote: > Dear Nina, > > --- nina van gorkom wrote: > Dear Sarah, > > I meant the quote about the commentaries being rehearsed together with > > the > > Tipitaka at the Councils. When you have time, perhaps you could > retrieve > > it? > > Nina. > ..... I noticed the short links (numbers of past posts)I gave didn't come back highlighted to my inbox and I know you don't go to the website to key them in, so I'll try again with full links: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/17904 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/19897 Let me know if you can't access them. Metta, Sarah p.s Nori, if you go to UP and scroll down to the following subjects, I think you'd find many answers;-) http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/Useful_Posts Abhhidhamma - origins Commentaries Buddhaghosa 25178 From: christine_forsyth Date: Wed Sep 10, 2003 2:46am Subject: Re: Free-will (Was Kamma) Hello Antony, and all, Thanks for this site - I enjoyed listening to Thanissaro Bhikkhu. I've read lots of his writings and translations, but I have never heard his voice before. I also briefly listened to Leigh Brassington and Stephen Batchelor. I think one of the things I continually forget about when considering vipaka is that it is a consequence only - not a teaching tool, or retributive justice in action.. I think this is where my reaction comes from - I see it as unfair and pointless, particularly when babies or other vulnerable beings are deliberately harmed or killed. My mind runs the same old loop from shock -> grief -> outrage -> puzzlement and eventually, after a few days, to remembering that this is what I do everytime - forget about anatta, and get taken in by stories and forms. metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Antony Woods" 25179 From: christine_forsyth Date: Wed Sep 10, 2003 2:54am Subject: Cats and Dogs was [Re: [dsg] Things worth adhering to] Hello Sarah, Just on the topic of Smokey Joe ... I saw him as soon as I arrived at Cooran (even before the cuppa). He was asleep on top of a cupboard in his unit, but soon jumped down to inspect and approve of the arriving humans. You'll have to ask Andrew about the legendary weight loss and exercise program. I honestly saw no evidence whatsoever - quite the contrary. It's probably 'comfort eating' though - as the poor boy is kept away from the ladies and, unthinkably, Andrew had invited ANOTHER MALE to stay in the boarding house with SJ's Girls. Perhaps next time I should take Rusty up to 'see the intruder off'. He and SJ have a bond ever since SJ offered to come and eat R's excess food when he was at the Veterinary Hospital. (Rusty is not the sharpest tool in the shed and considers SJ was trying to do him a favour. :-)) metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- ------ In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > Hi Andrew, > p.s like Nina, I enjoy ALL the details about your Cooran weekend > discussions. I mean we didn't even have a progress report on Smokey Joe's > diet...;-) And where's Azita and the famous article I'm > wondering....Steve??? > ========== 25180 From: Date: Wed Sep 10, 2003 2:23am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Demystifying/understanding nama and rupa:Howard Hi, TG, Ken, and all - Just as a clarification for any newbees who might not know us, kenhowardau@y... = Ken, and upasaka@a... = Howard. With metta, Howard In a message dated 9/9/03 9:33:39 PM Eastern Daylight Time, TGrand458@a... writes: > > In a message dated 9/9/2003 12:21:20 AM Pacific Daylight Time, > kenhowardau@y... writes: > > >Hi TG, > > > >You wrote to Nori: > >-------------- > >>The Buddha, to my knowledge, never explained > >>impermanence in the fashion that > >>abhidhamma thinking explains it. > >-------------- > > > >Howard: This is a surprising thing to read. > > > > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 25181 From: Sarah Date: Wed Sep 10, 2003 6:34am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Demystifying/understanding nama and rupa:Howard Hi Howard, Ken H, TG & All who like to be confused further, --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, TG, Ken, and all - > > Just as a clarification for any newbees who might not know us, > kenhowardau@y... = Ken, and upasaka@a... = Howard. .... ..and a clarification for oldies who might not know this little secret, in real life Ken is known as Howard;-) So when we met last year in Noosa, most folks were calling him Howard while a few like me were trying to persist with Ken. I reckon TG must have known.....;-) Anyway, he’s Ken H on DSG;-) So KenH from Noosa and Howard from NY Metta, Sarah ======= 25182 From: Date: Wed Sep 10, 2003 3:01am Subject: Re: [dsg] thinking Hi, Sarah (and Larry) - In a message dated 9/10/03 2:48:58 AM Eastern Daylight Time, sarahdhhk@y... writes: > I’d say ‘tree’ doesn’t rise and fall as anything. Whilst > vitakka and vicara arise and fall with the citta they accompany, they > merely perform their functions of touching and sustaining the citta on the > object (such as the concepts in this case). They are not the concept in > anyway and I think ‘thought-conception’ may be confusing as translation. > It is referring to the touching on or thinking about concepts, but vitakka > and vicara actually accompany all cittas apart from the dvi-panca vinnana > cittas of seeing, hearing etc from memory [i.e not just concepts touched > upon]. > > In the quote I gave to Howard yesterday from CMA, it mentioned that mental > objects are sixfold: sensitive matter, subtle matter, consciousness, > mental factors, nibbana and concepts. > > Vitakka and vicara are mental factors. Tree is always a concept. Hence, > vitakka and vicara have characteristics which can be known. Tree never > does. > > thanks for providing the Nyantiloka refs. I know you’ll let me know if you > disagree with what I’ve written here;-) > > Let me just add a paragraph from a post of Jon’s (to Nina and Icaro): > > Jon: “Thus the perception of the experience of things such as trees and > people is a creation of the mind, in the sense that that is not how the > world is actually being experienced at that moment. > > Saying that it's a creation of the mind, however, is not meant to imply > that it is 'purely imagined', since even the enlightened being similarly > creates objects out of sense-door experiences. It simply means it's a > perception that relies on inferences drawn from the way things are > actually experienced. There is nothing 'wrong' with this, except that for > the worldling there are conditions for such perception to be accompanied > by wrong view.â€? > > Metta, > > Sarah > =========================== Sarah, Abhidhamma or CMA or Vism notwithstanding, when we say that the object of consciousness is a concept, we are either speaking metaphorically, not literally, or we mean that the concept-object is a rupa, or a citta, or a cetasika. It is not possible to *literally* take something that does not occur as an object or as anything else! If, when we say that a pa~n~natti is the object of a citta, we mean a mind-created phenomenon such as a sa~n~na-marked citta memory, or rupa memory, or cetasika memory, and that that marked nama *seems* to be something other than what it is (seems even to be some external object), I have no problem. However, when we say that a pa~n~natti (BTW, is 'pa~n~natti' both singular and plural?) is the imagined external object, and we say that the imagined external object is the object of a citta, to be speaking at all coherently the speech must be figurative, conventional, and metaphorical. In fact, the *imagined* object (what *seems* to be the object) is the actually nonexistent external object (tree or whatever), but the true object [and there *must* be a true object unless you are countenancing objectless awareness!] is something else entirely. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 25183 From: Date: Wed Sep 10, 2003 3:18am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Demystifying/understanding nama and rupa:Howard Hi, Sarah (and Ken .. ,er Howard, uh ...) - In a message dated 9/10/03 9:36:36 AM Eastern Daylight Time, sarahdhhk@y... writes: > Hi Howard, Ken H, TG &All who like to be confused further, > > --- upasaka@a... wrote: >Hi, TG, Ken, and all - > > > > Just as a clarification for any newbees who might not know us, > >kenhowardau@y... = Ken, and upasaka@a... = Howard. > .... > ..and a clarification for oldies who might not know this little secret, in > real life Ken is known as Howard;-) > So when we met last year in Noosa, most folks were calling him Howard > while a few like me were trying to persist with Ken. I reckon TG must have > known.....;-) > > Anyway, he’s Ken H on DSG;-) So KenH from Noosa and Howard from NY > > Metta, > > Sarah ============================== I guess that some disambiguation should be carried out in any context in which there might be confusion, such as on a thread that both Ken H and I are both participating. If anyone wishes, instead of calling me "Howard" in such a context, you can use my intials "HCW" instead. (Ken, should we call you "Howard" on DSG?) With metta, Howard/HCW /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 25184 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Sep 10, 2003 10:01am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: the precepts Dear Christine and Howard, thanks Howard for you friendly toast to Lodewijk. He shall think of you when drinking wine and he shall toast back! He congratulates you with your abstinence. But he does not miss it at all when in India, or when there is no wine. op 10-09-2003 00:14 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: > Yes, intention is of major importance as regards kamma .. in fact, > intention *is* kamma! ;-) As far as refraining from intoxicants, well, that > is, > as I see it, a training rule, not less but also not more. Major consumption of > intoxicants is, of course, quite harmful to oneself and others, and should be > avoided. Nina: This point touches on the essence of the teachings. They are training rules, and they are quite different from the Vinaya rules for the monks. Once you are a monk you have to stick to them. I see the precepts not so much as rules of authority imposed on people, coming from outside, but more in this way: the motivation can come from within. Quite a difference. I have the impression that some monks see the precepts for laypeople as authoritive rules, forbidding certain things. I had years ago a correspondance with Ven. Bodhi about this. The marvel of the teachings is : learning about the different cittas, about cetasikas which perform their own functions and are not self. They all arise because of the appropriate conditions. The Dhammasangani seems to consist of a summing up of cittas, but the purpose is: knowing them in your own life. The Dhammasangani is very complete, nothing is left out. We learn when the citta is akusala when kusala, what the function of sati is. We learn that it is sati which prevents us from akusala. You learn what is beneficial for yourself and what is not. Everybody should find out for himself. He should find out where the boundary is of taking alcohol, or even drugs. In this way observing the precepts will come from within, and very naturally. No forcing. In this context I cannot see why we should first obsrve sila, then develop samatha, then vipassana. It all comes with more understanding of nama and rupa, with insight. The development is not a matter of: do this first, then that. Howard, I know you do not see it that way, I remember you made appropriately a comparison with a spiral. I found that even a little sherry affected me, that it was not good for me. I also know that men are different from women. Men may not notice anything when they take one or two glasses of liquor, women become tipsy with the same amount. Again, nobody else can tell you what to do, only you yourself. The teachings help us to develop kusala and understanding ourselves. We also know that only the sotapanna will be able to perfectly observe the precepts, and this quite naturally! When you really see that what we take for people and things are in the ultimate sense only conditioned realities arising and falling away, life is quite different. He clearly sees kamma and vipaka in life. Why should one be jealous? No need. Pleasant experiences through the senses are just conditioned by kamma. Why steal? In the ultimate sense there are only conditioned realities, no people, no things. There is no purpose in stealing. Why be stingy? We do not lose anything by giving things away: it depends on kamma whether there is gain or loss. Nina. 25185 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Sep 10, 2003 10:01am Subject: Re: [dsg] Are the Visuddhimagga & Abhidhamma bad interpretations ? Dear Nori, Rob K wrote an excellent post on this subject. The book is known to him. I just quote parts. op 10-09-2003 09:31 schreef norakat147 op nori_public@a...: > There seem to be many opponents to the Visuddhimagga & Abhidhamma. I > will cut & paste part of an article from one source which is an > article on Buddhadasa Nina: Here are some excerpts from his post: You can see, Nori how helpful this is. But of course hard to apply. I hope this helps, Nina. 25186 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Sep 10, 2003 10:01am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Demystifying/understanding nama and rupa Hi TG, op 10-09-2003 05:24 schreef TGrand458@a... op TGrand458@a...: > "eyeŠ earŠ noseŠ tongueŠ bodyŠ mind; are derived from the Four Great > Elements..." > (Patisambhidamagga) treatise 1, paragraphs 371-377 Nina: certainly. But, kamma produces them, and keeps on producing them throughout life. Kamma is mental. Nina. 25187 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Sep 10, 2003 10:01am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism. XIV, 13, seeing and developing. Dear Larry, in different contexts there are different meanings. When looking at the Vis. XIV, 8, and 13, clearly the supramundane panna is meant, not mundane here. And so in the subco: op 10-09-2003 01:53 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > Realizing is divided into realizing as seeing and realizing as > development and is concerned with realizing nibbana. The two > developments are basically mundane and supramundane 8-fold path..... 25188 From: torloff87048 Date: Wed Sep 10, 2003 0:15pm Subject: [dsg] Re:Vism XIV, 7 (4) Hi Sarah (and Howard and Larry), > S:> Visible object is also an element, always arising in a kalapa with the > four principle rupas and also odour, flavour and nutritive essence. > Visible object and these three depend on the four principle ones, but > arise together as I understand. Perhaps I misunderstood you. ... > Not sure here. Sanna (perception) is a universal cetasika, so it performs > its task of marking with every citta. Therefore it `marks' namas, rupas, > concepts and even nibbana when it arises with the lokuttara cittas. > When we talk about thinking, I believe sanna is marking concepts at these > moments. > Thanks for your clarifications here (and kind words elsewhere). What you said made sense to me. In terms of concepts, I still wonder if it is possible to describe thinking without reference to anything but citta and cetasika. No concepts needed. How useful this is I don't know. From this point of view I would apprehend the phrase "thinking about a tree" as "thinking-about-a-tree." In other words, it is a description of an experience, not a division into citta ("thinking") and object ("tree" concept). What the actual objects of the cittas which form the experience "thinking-about-a-tree" are is not part of this description. Or to put it another way, there is only citta, cetasika, rupa and Nibbana, and the experience of them, which is citta-cetasika-object as event rather than citta, cetasika and object as independently described realities. Even though the CMA refers to concepts as objects of citta, there is at least some room to consider that the notion "concepts can be objects of citta" is only a conventional way of speaking, even in the CMA and Abhidhamma: CMA VIII, 30 Concepts as that which is made known: "All such different things, though they do not exist in the ultimate sense, become objects of consciousness in the form of shadows of (ultimate) things." The wiggle room here is the meaning of "shadows of ultimate things." In my interpretation, the shadows are the conditioning of ultimate things by ultimate things, i.e. citta and cetasika that have been conditioned by ultimate things, especially by sanna, and later perceived as objects of citta. It's the conditioning that gives rise to experiences like "thinking-about-a-tree," not any concept "tree" that becomes an object of "thinking". Even an Arahant's mind remains conditioned in these ways. Otherwise, he would not even be able to speak. Metta, Toby 25189 From: christine_forsyth Date: Wed Sep 10, 2003 0:51pm Subject: H elp in how to locate a sutta requested Dear Group, Can anyone help me understand how to trace the Jivaka Sutta (AN VIII.26) 'To Jivaka (On Being a Lay Follower)' in the unfamiliar (to me) numbering system used on this site? http://www.metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/4Anguttara-Nikaya/ metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- 25190 From: icarofranca Date: Wed Sep 10, 2003 1:42pm Subject: ICARO´S DHAMMA DIARY - CHAPTER ZERO ! ÍCARO´S DHAMMA DIARY Chapter Zero: ParaMMAAAAtha Dhammas really do it ! The Abdhidhamma! The first and more fundamental question about Abhidhamma: is Rupa Matter ? At first reading, you can say that Matter is Rupa at some mode of expression... and I´ve got a bit of Rupas to deal on! Practising Niyama at a layperson´s way, I put all my personal objects I intend to carry with me at the military boot camp - at ordered single files: white socks, blue shorts, jogging tennis, white T-shirt, toothbrush, walkman...so many objects to put in my bag! I am not so fortunate as the Bhikkhu Monk that has only nine objects to deal on all his life - three robes, bowl, staff, tootbrush, fan, shaving blade and that miraculous, classical remedy of the True Sangha: TIGER BALM (praise to old Haw Par the creator!!!) Watching "Sheep at the Big City" on Cartoon Network I remember my days living on Sweden... and how to deal properly with reality! And thinking on Niyama, I recalled the Paramattha Dhammas: Objects Bases 1. form - rupa 2. sound - sadda 3. odor - gandha 4. taste - rasa 5. eye - cakkhu 6. ear - sota 7. nose - ghana 8. tongue - jivha (tangibility - iphothavva - has an uncertain rule on this list...) 9. body - kaya 10. temperature - tezo 11. resistance - pathavi 12. motion - vayo 13. cohesion - apo These twelve senses and objects are "gross" - olarikarupam. The other is subtle - that Blunt of Mohammed!!! - sukhumarupam. 14. Jivita - life principle - this Paramattha Dhamma is very important to cultural life, let us see how: rupa ----------- gandha | rasa | oja (nourishment) | |- 8 factors of matter, inseparable (avinibhoga) pathavi | tezo | vayo | apo ----------- All material phenomena is composed of these factors, that cannot be separated from the phenomena. They are know as Suddhatthaka Rupakalapa (pure octad material group - excelent to compose Hai-kais!!!). Looking at the empty space of my bag and the bunch ofthings that I intend to put in and out of it, the Cartoon at TV and the scene around me, I perceive that Material phenomena arises because of one or more of these (catuja) 1. Kamma (action) 2. Citta (mind) 3. Utu (seasonal conditions, weather) 4. Ahara (nutriment) Making some calculations, you can set all Jivita characteristics: Avinibhoga + jivita = jivita-nava-ka (1) " + " + cakkhu = cakku-dasa-ka (2) " + " + sota = sota-dasa-ka (3) " + " + gandha = gandha-dasa-ka (4) " + " + jivha = jivha-dasa-ka (5) " + " + kaya = kaya-dasa-ka (6) *(dasa is ten, ka is group, nava is nine...my Pali is far from perfect, but this all is very simple to do)* Material qualities of sex = 15. femminity (itthibhava) (7) 16. masculinity (pumbhava) (8) (Don´t forget, boys and girls: at The Buddha´s viewpoint, sex is a thing done only with a male and a female beings!!!!!) Material quality of base = 17. mind base (hadya-vatthu) (9) This group of nine arises because of Kammaja (past action) As a secret pocket in a jacket, we see that the original Paramattha Dhamma´s list conceals a sub-listing on it, made by the Kamma flow! Many surprises to goin´on!!!! Material quality of nutriment - 18. oja (food). We get so 18 material qualities. These qualities are considered as being real (nipphanannarupa), and produced by the catuja (kamma, citta, utu, ahara). Uff Da! I managed to put everything I need in my bag!!! At the next weekend I am going to travel to Air Force´s Acadeny at Minas Gerais. My life at the barracks and the hard boot camp will begin at once! Don´t dare to miss our thrilling next episode: CHAPTER ONE: After a MUTTON scéance, what is Reality ? (well, I will try don´t get so thrilled anyway...) Mettaya, Ícaro ( here we go !!!!) 25191 From: gazita2002 Date: Wed Sep 10, 2003 2:20pm Subject: Cats and Dogs was [Re: [dsg] Things worth adhering to] --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Hello Sarah, > > Just on the topic of Smokey Joe [snip] > metta and peace, > Christine > ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- > > > ------ In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah > wrote: > > Hi Andrew, > > > p.s like Nina, I enjoy ALL the details about your Cooran weekend > > discussions. I mean we didn't even have a progress report on Smokey > Joe's > > diet...;-) And where's Azita and the famous article I'm > > wondering....Steve??? Dear Sarah, Here I am. The famous article will follow. I actually wrote an article last night to send to dsg., got to the last 3 letters of my name - a whoosh! off into cyberspace it went. My poor computor skills are deteriorating, if that's possible. That's no excuse, I hear you say. The Cooran w/e was wonderful, they are true kalayanamittas. I promise to send it my story about the w/e; but now I have to go to work. Patience, courage and good cheer, Azita 25192 From: Derek Cameron Date: Wed Sep 10, 2003 2:37pm Subject: Re: H elp in how to locate a sutta requested --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Can anyone help me understand how to trace the Jivaka Sutta (AN > VIII.26) 'To Jivaka (On Being a Lay Follower)' in the unfamiliar > (to me) numbering system used on this site? > http://www.metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/4Anguttara-Nikaya/ Yes Christine: I looked it up on the Access to Insight index of A.N. translations, where it's noted that A.N. VIII.26 appears in A iv.222, i.e. Pali Text Society edition volume 4 page 222. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/index.html#8 Fortunately the PTS page numbers are given in the Pali text on the site you are interested in: http://www.metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/4Anguttara- Nikaya/Anguttara5/8-atthakanipata/003-gahapativaggo-p.htm So this gives the reference of 8.1.3.6. 8 -- the major section of the A.N. (A.t.thakanipaatapaa.li) 1 -- not sure what this is 3 -- the group (Gahapativaggo) 6 -- the sutta (Jiivakasutta.m) English text is here: http://www.metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/4Anguttara- Nikaya/Anguttara5/8-atthakanipata/003-gahapativaggo-e.htm Long links -- you may need to cut'n'paste! Derek. 25193 From: Date: Wed Sep 10, 2003 3:09pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vimuttimagga Hi Robert, Do you think the Vimuttimagga was one of Buddaghosa's sources? Larry 25194 From: Date: Wed Sep 10, 2003 3:18pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism. XIV, 13, seeing and developing. Hi Nina, Any ideas on in what sense seeing nibbana is seeing? Larry 25195 From: Date: Wed Sep 10, 2003 3:49pm Subject: Vism. XIV, 14 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga)ch. XIV [How many kinds of understanding are there?] 14. 7. As regards the triads, understanding acquired without hearing from another is that "consisting in what is reasoned" because it is produced by one's own reasoning. Understanding acquired by hearing from another is that "consisting in what is heard", because it is produced by hearing. Understanding that has reached absorption, having been somehow produced by (meditative) development, is that "consisting in development". And this is said: 'Herein, what is understanding consisting in what is reasoned? In the spheres of work invented by ingenuity, or in the spheres of craft invented by ingenuity, or in the sorts of science invented by ingenuity, any preference, view, choice, opinion, judgement, liking for pondering over things, that concerns ownership of deeds (kamma) or is in conformity with truth or is of such kind as to conform with (the axioms) "Materiality is impermanent" or "Feeling ... perception ... formations ... consciousness is impermanent" that one acquires without hearing it from another--that is called understanding consisting in what is reasoned. '(In the spheres ... ) that one acquires by hearing it from another--that is called understanding consisting in what is learnt (heard). 'And all understanding in anyone who has attained (an attainment) is consisting in development' (Vbh. 324-25). So it is of three kinds as consisting in what is thought out, in what is heard, and in development. 25196 From: Date: Wed Sep 10, 2003 3:57pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism. XIV, 14 Hi Nina, What kind of understanding is satipatthana: thought out, heard, or development? Larry "So it is of three kinds as consisting in what is thought out, in what is heard, and in development." 25197 From: Date: Wed Sep 10, 2003 4:05pm Subject: Re: [dsg] thinking Sarah: "I know you'll let me know if you disagree with what I've written here;-)" Hi Sarah, I do disagree with you but I don't see any possibility of persuading otherwise. If it makes sense to you to say this doesn't exist, that's fine with me. The main thing is to let go of attachments, especially attachments to views. So I'm letting this one go. Larry 25198 From: Date: Wed Sep 10, 2003 1:37pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Demystifying/understanding nama and rupa In a message dated 9/10/2003 10:03:55 AM Pacific Daylight Time, nilo@e... writes: > Hi TG, > op 10-09-2003 05:24 schreef TGrand458@a... op TGrand458@a...: > > >"eyeÅ earÅ noseÅ tongueÅ bodyÅ mind; are derived from the Four Great > >Elements..." > >(Patisambhidamagga) treatise 1, paragraphs 371-377 > Nina: certainly. But, kamma produces them, and keeps on producing them > throughout life. Kamma is mental. > Nina. > Hi Nina If you don't mind, let me clarify something, just to make sure I have it right. Am I right to consider inanimate objects (such as a desk) to be composed of rupa? It seems from some of your descriptions that perhaps rupa is only considered matter associated with a sentient being? When I think in terms of conditionality and impermanence I think in terms of animate and inanimate states. The Buddha uses inanimate states on a regular basis for analogies and demonstrations of impermanence and conditionality. I agree that kamma continues the causal cycle of sentient systems (humans for example). I'm interested in the causes of the initial cognitive moments that produce a "kamma driven" sentient system. Not during rebirth, but in the evolutionary sense. There is a sutta (I think in Majjhima) where the Buddha says "...some monks have liberated their minds by insight into the Four Great Elements..." In this sutta, he is describing several (about 8) different approaches that lead to liberation and this is one of them. I think there is more to the Four Great Elements as "causal principles" than they are usually given credit for. TG 25199 From: Date: Wed Sep 10, 2003 3:15pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:Vism XIV, 7 (4) Hi, Toby - This is pretty much as I see the matter! With metta, Howard In a message dated 9/10/03 3:17:25 PM Eastern Daylight Time, torloff87048@y... writes: > In terms of concepts, I still wonder if it is possible to describe thinking > without reference to anything but citta and cetasika. No concepts needed. > How useful this is I don't know. From this point of view I would apprehend > the phrase "thinking about a tree" as "thinking-about-a-tree." In other > words, it is a description of an experience, not a division into citta > ("thinking") and object ("tree" concept). What the actual objects of the cittas which > form the experience "thinking-about-a-tree" are is not part of this > description. Or to put it another way, there is only citta, cetasika, rupa and > Nibbana, and the experience of them, which is citta-cetasika-object as event rather > than citta, cetasika and object as independently described realities. > > Even though the CMA refers to concepts as objects of citta, there is at > least some room to consider that the notion "concepts can be objects of citta" is > only a conventional way of speaking, even in the CMA and Abhidhamma: > > CMA VIII, 30 Concepts as that which is made known: > > "All such different things, though they do not exist in the ultimate sense, > become objects of consciousness in the form of shadows of (ultimate) things." > > The wiggle room here is the meaning of "shadows of ultimate things." In my > interpretation, the shadows are the conditioning of ultimate things by > ultimate things, i.e. citta and cetasika that have been conditioned by ultimate > things, especially by sanna, and later perceived as objects of citta. It's the > conditioning that gives rise to experiences like "thinking-about-a-tree," not > any concept "tree" that becomes an object of "thinking". Even an Arahant's > mind remains conditioned in these ways. Otherwise, he would not even be able > to speak. > > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra)