26600 From: Date: Mon Nov 3, 2003 4:16pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Vism. XIV 32, 33 Hi Nina, I'm not clear on this issue. In a previous discussion you and Rob explained that consciousness is just pure consciousness. I took this to mean that there is no difference between consciousness of light or consciousness of sound or consciousness with ignorance or consciousness with wisdom as far as the consciousness itself is concerned. Could you explain again what you mean by pure consciousness or pure awareness? If you don't think the sameness of consciousness accounts for the impression that the consciousness khandha gives that "a person comes and goes with the same mind", then how does consciousness give this impression? Larry ----------------------- Nina: Hi Larry, op 02-11-2003 20:11 schreef Larry op LBIDD@w...: Perhaps we could say consciousness gives the impression that a person comes and goes with the same mind because of the unchanging nature of consciousness itself, while what changes is the object of consciousness and the mental body (feeling, perception, volitional formations). N: Also citta changes each moment, seeing is not the same as the following citta, another vipakacitta, receiving-consciousness which receives the visible object. Nina. 26601 From: norakat147 Date: Mon Nov 3, 2003 4:32pm Subject: Reflections on Wife family, children and cats - To have or not to have hi all, I was wondering what peoples thoughts were on having a wife and family? (uh-oh, shouldn't ask this on a Buddhist discussion group, right?) --- There is an old saying in America: "It is better to have loved, then to never have loved at all." ...but the Buddhist saying goes more like: "Beware of love, for love will bring you grief. It will bring fear of losing your love. It will bring one day separation from what is dear." --- cats- I remember in my parents home when our last cat died, we were very sad. We were really sad for a few days; kinda sad for weeks, but then we all eventually got over it. For we all knew that all things will one day die, even us. I think even most non-Buddhists (like my parents) are smart enough to figure that one out. However even though we were sad for a few weeks or more, it made our lives more full, fun, less lonely, entertaining and just happier overall. We (my family) had a total of three cats come and go (die, that is) lasting a span of 35 years and I think we made each others lives very fulfilling. While overall their deaths might have caused a few months of suffering in total, they brought a sort of fulfillment and happiness lasting a span of close to 35 years. When my parents last cat died my father was so sad he said "no more cats, this is the last cat." They had no cat for about a month or so and looked very sad the whole time, the house was quiet and seemed to be missing something. One day on my own accord, brought home a baby from a stray cat my friend had give birth in his home. It started jumping around all over the place and brought some light back into my parents faces. It still lives with my parents now (although now its big and fat) and continues to bring some sort of fulfillment and happiness into their lives. family- My friend has a grandmother living in his home with his family, she is 92. I asked my friend if she was happy and lived a happy life. He said that she seems very happy and likes playing with her grand kids. Her husband is long dead and I think some of her kids had died, but overall she seems happy. When I think about things like this, I wonder as a currently single person which is better? On one hand, having wife and family: it is sad when people die, or when good things go sour (but we eventually get over it). It is also suffering not to be completely free, and yes, a hullabaloo is not conducive to realizing the subtle aspects of life and reality. ...But on the other hand, I could really imagine myself, as I do today, trying to get over my suffering from recurring loneliness and emptiness. When people die, you may suffer for a duration: weeks, months, a few years. ... however suffering from lonliness and emptiness may last many, many years, far outweighing the suffering from loss and death. May all beings be happy, nori --------------- addendum below -------------------- Stories of transmigration and the deathless state are only stories to me, not truth. Until I see/witness such evidence they will remain stories and not truth. What if we all just die and thats it? - and we go nowhere ? Am I to sacrifice living the happiest life I could (which I suspect is with wife and family), and instead live without one, in order to try to attain something that I don't even know exists? --- also: Question / comment regarding: Samyutta Nikaya XV.3 Assu Sutta Tears (posted below) I wonder, if moments of happiness can produce tangible matter such as tears, or if moments of neither happy or neither sad can produce tears, or if moments of slightly sad or slightly happy can produce tears, how many oceans can we make ? Not all of life is full of tears. In fact for some or most people, moments of tearful sorrow is only a small fraction of their lives compared to the other states I mention above. --- "As we understand the Dhamma taught to us by the Blessed One, this is the greater: the tears we have shed while transmigrating & wandering this long, long time -- crying & weeping from being joined with what is displeasing, being separated from what is pleasing -- not the water in the four great oceans." "Excellent, monks. Excellent. It is excellent that you thus understand the Dhamma taught by me. "This is the greater: the tears you have shed while transmigrating & wandering this long, long time -- crying & weeping from being joined with what is displeasing, being separated from what is pleasing -- not the water in the four great oceans." 26602 From: norakat147 Date: Mon Nov 3, 2003 4:42pm Subject: Re: The paradox of Annatta (not-self) and transmigration Hi Victor, Anatta has been realised, it has been seen, it has been witnessed and so is not speculation. Transmigration has been seen, it has been witnessed and so is not speculation. ... at least for those who have realized it. How is then the question "If there is no-self then, who transmigrates?" a speculative question? ... However I must say, it is probably speculative for (I suspect) all of us, since I doubt anybody among us has truly realised this for himself through observation (not reading it or intelluctualization). I think only an arhant or somebody close to one can realize this? I was just wondering what kind of replies the question would recieve. metta, nori --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "yu_zhonghao" wrote: > Hi Nori, > > Where did you get the idea that there is no soul? The Buddha did > not teach whether there is soul or not. Thinking along the line > of "there is soul" or "there is no soul" is speculative, not > connected with the Dhamma. > > Similar question such as "if there is no self, who gets reborn?" > also starts with the assumption not connected with the Buddha's > teaching. > > Peace, > Victor > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "norakat147" > wrote: > > hi all, > > > > I know there is probably no chance of intelectualizing this in > words > > but I'll throw it out there anyway. > > > > If there is no-self (soul), then what transmigrates? > > > > (I have a feeling I asked this before, if so, sorry.) > > > > > > one, > > nori 26603 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Mon Nov 3, 2003 4:43pm Subject: Re: guarding the senses Hi Robert and all, Robert, where did you get the idea that I said "you can notice how the feeling arising at the time of taking son object change."? I think it would be a good practice to quote what someone did say, with reference if helpful, in order to avoid putting words in other's mouth, intentionally or unintentionally. Peace, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > Dear Sue, [snip] > attachment. As Victor said over time you can notice how the feelings > arising at the time of taking son as object change. In the first [snip] 26604 From: gazita2002 Date: Mon Nov 3, 2003 4:45pm Subject: Chiangmai / Pai Hello everyone, Probably the most important thing that I learnt from these trips to Asia this time is how 'yark mark' -thai for 'very difficult', the development of right understanding really is. As r.u. can only develop when it arises & 'one' cannot make it arise [not even monumental trying will do it, thats just clinging again], no more than we can control the object which seeing sees. The clinging to wanting more r.u. is really a hindrance, therefore 'allow' whatever appears thro. whatever doorway to be object of awareness. Even the word 'allow' is not so suitable - to me, it still has connotation of 'someone allowing something to happen'. R.U. can only arise when conditions are right. Phenomena are arising and falling away all the time, and it is just this phenomena that we take for self. We cannot control hearing [nama], cannot control what is heard [rupa], cannot control clinging to the hearing or to the sound heard, cannot control the arising of r.u., cannot change the characteristic of avija, of not knowing reality as it really is. The arising of r.u. must be as natural as the arising of seeing, hearing, liking, disliking. It cannot be any other way. Listen to the teachings, consider what is heard and study the present reality with r.u. - naturally. Yark mark, jing jing. The clinging to wanting r.u. is very, very subtle - I like Tan Achan's 'whispering lobha'. I think the desire for r.u. can also be very gross. Patience, courage and good cheer, Azita. 26605 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Mon Nov 3, 2003 5:08pm Subject: Re: The paradox of Annatta (not-self) and transmigration Hi Nori, The view "there is no self" is not what the Buddha taught. The Buddha did not teach the view "there is a self", nor did he teach the view "there is no self." Both views are not connected with the Buddha's teaching. Please do investigate further what the Buddha taught as recorded in the discourses and see if the Buddha taught either of these two views. Peace, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "norakat147" wrote: > Hi Victor, 26606 From: nordwest Date: Mon Nov 3, 2003 4:18pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The paradox of Annatta (not-self) and transmigration I wonder, what is the definition of "soul", I didn't come upon it in the buddhist glossary. IF I would use it, it would maybe be for the term "the self" ... or .. " the buddha-nature"? I'm not sure, actually I have never come upon it in any teaching. Looks like for some reason pepole are avoiding it, and I would like to know the reason, if you can tell me, thanks. Thomas yu_zhonghao wrote: Hi Nori, Where did you get the idea that there is no soul? The Buddha did not teach whether there is soul or not. Thinking along the line of "there is soul" or "there is no soul" is speculative, not connected with the Dhamma. Similar question such as "if there is no self, who gets reborn?" also starts with the assumption not connected with the Buddha's teaching. Peace, Victor 26607 From: nordwest Date: Mon Nov 3, 2003 4:59pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Chiangmai / Pai Thank you, yes, patience is the greatest teacher. Buddha alos said, "The greatest prayer is patience." Yours in the Dharma, Thomas gazita2002 wrote: Hello everyone, Probably the most important thing that I learnt from these trips to Asia this time is how 'yark mark' -thai for 'very difficult', the development of right understanding really is. ... Yark mark, jing jing. The clinging to wanting r.u. is very, very subtle - I like Tan Achan's 'whispering lobha'. I think the desire for r.u. can also be very gross. Patience, courage and good cheer, Azita. 26608 From: rjkjp1 Date: Mon Nov 3, 2003 5:35pm Subject: Re: guarding the senses In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "yu_zhonghao" wrote: > Hi Robert and all, > > Robert, where did you get the idea that I said "you can notice how > the feeling arising at the time of taking son object change."? > > I think it would be a good practice to quote what someone did say, > with reference if helpful, in order to avoid putting words in > other's mouth, intentionally or unintentionally. > > Peace, > Victor > >Dear Victor, I got the idea from what you said earlier on this thread. Because it was a paraphrase I didnt put it in quotes. What you said was: --- "I would say that because the issue is not completely resolved, when the memory comes back, it comes with painful feeling. If the issue is resolved, it is just the memory that comes back without the painful feeling." Robertk 26609 From: norakat147 Date: Mon Nov 3, 2003 6:06pm Subject: [dsg] Re: The paradox of Annatta (not-self) and transmigration Hi Thomas, They refer to the word "Atman" every now & then in some of the suttas. It is a vedic/hindu term which I believe is close to the definition of the english word "soul". metta, nori --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nordwest wrote: > I wonder, what is the definition of "soul", I didn't come upon it in the buddhist glossary. IF I would use it, it would maybe be for the term "the self" ... or .. " the buddha-nature"? I'm not sure, actually I have never come upon it in any teaching. Looks like for some reason pepole are avoiding it, and I would like to know the reason, if you can tell me, thanks. > > Thomas 26610 From: robmoult Date: Mon Nov 3, 2003 6:11pm Subject: Re: Reflections on Wife family, children and cats - To have or not to have Hi Nori, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "norakat147" wrote: > I was wondering what peoples thoughts were on having a wife and > family? (uh-oh, shouldn't ask this on a Buddhist discussion group, > right?) It all depends on our accumulations and other conditions. For some people, conditions and accumulations support them becoming a monk. For other people, conditions and accumulations support them being a lay person. Yet for other people, conditions and accumulations support them being a Christian / Muslim / Hindu / etc. Recently, I wanted to help reprint a book written by a local monk. I was told that we would have to get permission from the monk and there would be a delay because the monk had disrobed a year or so ago and was now getting married. I was reminded that there is no stigma associated with a monk disrobing. In fact, there was a man at the time of the Buddha who became a monk and disrobed seven times, always to return to his wife. After the seventh time, the man awoke early in the morning, saw his wife without make-up and that was the condition for him to return to monkhood for good :-) Modern society focuses on the external, whereas the Dhamma focuses on the internal. If I were to renounce, I would be worried about the welfare of my wife and kids. This would be unwholesome. As a layperson, I can support my family and I can also study and teach the Dhamma at the local temple. This is wholesome. Better a good layperson than a bad monk. One can certainly progress "on the fast track" as a monk, without the distractions of family and other attachments. Perhaps my spiritual development as a layperson at this time will create suitable accumulations for me to become a monk in some future life (I've got countless yet to go). Friend Nori, my advice to you is to commit yourself to studying the Dhamma and, more importantly, practicing the Dhamma in your daily life. In the Bhumija Sutta (Mn 126), the Buddha made it clear that good results come from proper practice, not from good intentions. Study and practice the Dhamma; that is what you need to do, either as a layperson or as a monk. If your conditions and accumultions support your renouncing, then I encourage it out of compassion; it will support the lessening of your suffering. If your conditions and accumulations do not support your renouncing (mine do not), then that is okay as well. ===== > I remember in my parents home when our last cat died, we were very > sad. We were really sad for a few days; kinda sad for weeks, but then > we all eventually got over it. For we all knew that all things will > one day die, even us. I think even most non-Buddhists (like my > parents) are smart enough to figure that one out. > > However even though we were sad for a few weeks or more, it made our > lives more full, fun, less lonely, entertaining and just happier > overall. We (my family) had a total of three cats come and go (die, > that is) lasting a span of 35 years and I think we made each others > lives very fulfilling. While overall their deaths might have caused a > few months of suffering in total, they brought a sort of fulfillment > and happiness lasting a span of close to 35 years. > > When my parents last cat died my father was so sad he said "no more > cats, this is the last cat." They had no cat for about a month or so > and looked very sad the whole time, the house was quiet and seemed to > be missing something. One day on my own accord, brought home a baby > from a stray cat my friend had give birth in his home. It started > jumping around all over the place and brought some light back into my > parents faces. It still lives with my parents now (although now its > big and fat) and continues to bring some sort of fulfillment and > happiness into their lives. ===== The Buddha had one set of rules for monks and another set for laypeople. The rules for monks (the Vinaya) go into lots of detail about daily activities. For example, according to the Vinaya, monks are not allowed to cook for themselves. If a monk cooks for himself, then the monk would naturally prepare food that he likes and this could easily be a condition for attachment and craving. Many of the Vinaya rules are like this; "best practices to avoid conditions supporting attachment and craving". I'm not sure, but I suspect that there is a Vinaya rule against keeping pets, because of the attachment that this fosters. On the other hand, the rules for laypeople are simple and clear: - avoid killing - avoid stealing - avoid sexual misconduct - avoid lying - avoid intoxicants These five precepts are ethical laws, not spiritual practices. If, as a layperson, you want to move from eithical laws to spiritual practices (i.e. during new moon, full moon, or special occasions) then you can take the eight precepts: - avoid killing - avoid stealing - avoid incelibacy - avoid lying - avoid intoxicants - avoid eating after mid-day - avoid garlands, going to dances or shows - avoid sleeping on a high bed As you can see, even as a layperson undertaking the eight precepts for spiritual development, there is no problem with taking delight in cats or other pets. In fact, seeing a cat live and die in your own house can be a condition for an appreciation of anicca and dukkha (even if you are not Buddhist). ===== > family- > My friend has a grandmother living in his home with his family, she > is 92. I asked my friend if she was happy and lived a happy life. He > said that she seems very happy and likes playing with her grand kids. > Her husband is long dead and I think some of her kids had died, but > overall she seems happy. > > When I think about things like this, I wonder as a currently single > person which is better? ===== It depends on accumulations and conditions. Perhaps you will meet the right life partner and this will be a condition for you to marry. Perhaps you will not meet a life partner and should remain single. Single, married, monk or layperson, what is important is that you study and apply the Dhamma. Metta, Rob M :-) 26611 From: norakat147 Date: Mon Nov 3, 2003 6:47pm Subject: Oops! Correction - Reflections on Wife family, children and cats - to have or no Reflections on Wife family, children and cats - To have or not to have: Oops!, made a boo boo on my last post. correction: --- There is an old saying in America: "It is better to have loved and lost, then to never have loved at all." --- I think thats how it goes. metta, nori --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "norakat147" wrote: > hi all, > > I was wondering what peoples thoughts were on having a wife and > family? (uh-oh, shouldn't ask this on a Buddhist discussion group, > right?) > > --- > > There is an old saying in America: > "It is better to have loved, then to never have loved at all." > > ...but the Buddhist saying goes more like: > "Beware of love, for love will bring you grief. It will bring fear of > losing your love. It will bring one day separation from what is dear." > > --- > > cats- > I remember in my parents home when our last cat died, we were very > sad. We were really sad for a few days; kinda sad for weeks, but then > we all eventually got over it. For we all knew that all things will > one day die, even us. I think even most non-Buddhists (like my > parents) are smart enough to figure that one out. > > However ... snip! 26612 From: connie Date: Mon Nov 3, 2003 6:59pm Subject: Re: kamma and vipaka Hi, Ken O I like to think that all kusala leads to more kusala, but as Nina's Conditions states: If we do not develop satipatthana with the purpose of eradicating akusala, the kusala we perform can, without our noticing it, be a natural decisive support-condition for akusala citta. ... ...Akusala can also be a natural decisive support-condition for kusala. Because of aversion towards akusala vipaka or attachment to kusala vipaka one may perform good deeds. More reminders that most of our lives involve more akusala than kusala and that things aren't as simple as they seem. peace, connie Ken O: All are just condition "conditioning" our next condition. Sounds mechanic and also sounds like we have no control - scary idea isn't it. It isn't. In fact this is very helpful bc kusala conditions will condition more kusala ones. Isn't it nice :) 26613 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Mon Nov 3, 2003 7:28pm Subject: Re: guarding the senses Hi Robert, Thank you for providing the quote. I would say that your paraphrase misrepresented what I said in "I would say that because the issue is not completely resolved, when the memory comes back, it comes with painful feeling. If the issue is resolved, it is just the memory that comes back without the painful feeling." Peace, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: [snip] > I got the idea from what you said earlier on this thread. Because it > was a paraphrase I didnt put it in quotes. What you said was: --- "I > would say that because the issue is not completely resolved, when > the memory comes back, it comes with painful feeling. If the issue > is resolved, it is just > the memory that comes back without the painful feeling." > Robertk 26614 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Mon Nov 3, 2003 7:46pm Subject: [dsg] Re: The paradox of Annatta (not-self) and transmigration Hi Nori, Let's me ask this question: How do you know that the Buddha used the word "atta"/"self" in his teaching as a vedic/hindu term? Please do investigate further how the word "atta"/"self" is used in the Buddha's teaching as recorded in the discourses. A possible starting point: Dhammapada XII Self http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/khuddaka/dhp/12.html Peace, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "norakat147" wrote: > Hi Thomas, [snip] 26615 From: christine_forsyth Date: Mon Nov 3, 2003 8:11pm Subject: Re: The paradox of Annatta (not-self) and transmigration Hello Nori, Great question! I often ask questions two or three times, and have been known to completely forget something members have patiently and painstakingly explained to me previously - don't worry about it. :-) Look on it as a public service to the lurkers - and the rest of us who need to hear things explained over and over again. Bhikkhu Bodhi has succinctly stated the Buddhist teachings on dukkha (unsatisfactoriness/suffering), anicca (impermanence) and anatta (not- self) at: http://www.beyondthenet.net/dhamma/trilogy.htm It is also worth reading the definition of Anatta under "A" in Ven. Nyanatiloka's "Manual of Buddhist Terms and Doctrines" http://www.budsas.org/ebud/bud-dict/dic_idx.htm You may find benefit in reading the Useful Posts (4th from the top in the Files Section). Look under the headings of: Anatta (not self); and, Anatta - no control?; http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/ metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "norakat147" wrote: > hi all, > > I know there is probably no chance of intelectualizing this in words > but I'll throw it out there anyway. > > If there is no-self (soul), then what transmigrates? > > (I have a feeling I asked this before, if so, sorry.) > > > one, > nori 26616 From: christine_forsyth Date: Mon Nov 3, 2003 8:16pm Subject: Re: What did Buddha accomplish? Hello Antony, You may find these links of assistance: Qualities of Ariya Persons http://web.ukonline.co.uk/buddhism/ariyas4.htm From Puthujjana to Buddha http://web.ukonline.co.uk/buddhism/ariyacht.htm Ariyas (Noble Persons) http://web.ukonline.co.uk/buddhism/mtinmon4.htm metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Antony Woods" wrote: > What did Buddha accomplish? > What does an arahant accomplish? > What is the goal of Buddhism? > > Thanks / Antony. > 26617 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Mon Nov 3, 2003 8:40pm Subject: Re: What did Buddha accomplish? Hi Antony, I will answer the first question as I understand it: 1. What did Buddha accomplish? The Buddha is fully accomplished with ten Tathagata's powers and four kinds of intrepidity.* Peace, Victor * Majjhima Nikaya 12 Maha-sihanada Sutta The Great Discourse on the Lion's Roar http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/majjhima/mn012.html --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Antony Woods" wrote: > What did Buddha accomplish? > What does an arahant accomplish? > What is the goal of Buddhism? > > Thanks / Antony. 26618 From: nordwest Date: Mon Nov 3, 2003 6:22pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: the monk's wife - To have or not to have I knew, there must be a deeper meaning behind becoming a monk!! ;0) LOL , there was a man at the time of the Buddha who became a monk and disrobed seven times, always to return to his wife. After the seventh time, the man awoke early in the morning, saw his wife without make-up and that was the condition for him to return to monkhood for good :-) 26619 From: nordwest Date: Mon Nov 3, 2003 6:13pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Reflections on Wife family, children and cats - To have or not to have I like to think, that all beings have been our parents before. Like this, noone is single. In my eyes, "single" is more a term related to sex. - If we can give love not only for a few ones, but radiate our love unconditional, then we will swim in waves of love through life. Family is nice, and friends, and lovers ... but we come alone, and depart alone. In general, if love is not about attachment, its a blessing. If its arrachment, its suffering. Many suffer when seeing beings depart to the next life and rejoice, when someone is born. What is the difference? Attachment and attitude. Yours in the Dharma, Thomas norakat147 wrote:hi all, I was wondering what peoples thoughts were on having a wife and family? (uh-oh, shouldn't ask this on a Buddhist discussion group, right?) --- 26620 From: christine_forsyth Date: Mon Nov 3, 2003 9:36pm Subject: Re: kamma and vipaka Hello RobM, and all, Thank you for your post - (I still haven't read back to your karuna post, but I see you have had lots of discussion and suggestions already). I'm so glad that you and others take the time and have the patience to assist those of us with a little more dust in our eyes.:) I found this post to be clear and understandable, the simile of the ball rolling down the pile of gravel is helpful - and it's interesting what you say about radiating metta nad accumulations, and the experimental data otained at the UofW. (not radiating metta to self, of course :-)). Just one question at the moment - Wouldn't emotion be covered under Pleasant or Unpleasant mental feeling? metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" 26621 From: Sarah Date: Tue Nov 4, 2003 1:05am Subject: Re: [dsg] Karuna (compassion) for comment Hi RobM, Thanks for your further comments. --- robmoult wrote: > I thought about the phrase, "not bearing" and I felt it was the best > alternative; suggests "trembling heart" and is not too suggestive of > aversion. Do you have an alternative phrase? ..... I think you can use it, but preferably within the quote from the texts which is obviously a literal translation. (??maybe dhara - bearing, holding - perhaps Steve or Derek or someone else could check). My inclination would be to quote more from the texts than other writings. See a few below. Trembling heart...... I’ve done a bit of reverse checking and have found a reference in CMA. B.Bodhi in his Guide to #9, ch9 writes; “Compassion (karu.naa) is that which makes the heart quiver when others are subject to suffering. It is the wish to remove the suffering of others, and it is opposed to cruelty.” I’m curious to know where the ‘tembling heart’ or ‘heart quiver’ comes from in the texts. In the commentary to the Abhidammatthasangaha (PTS) which the Guide is based on, it doesn’t mention it, but merely says “Compassion has the characteristic of desiring the removal of the suffering of others.” As we know, when there is compassion, there is calm and absence of agitation and so on, so I’d need to see another reference to be convinced;-) ..... > I see "wishing for a person's suffering to be reduced" as the > definition of compassion. "It would be better for me if they got > better..." is definitely lobha-mula, but if the thought is clearly > with the other person as object, "I want their suffering to be > reduced...", then it is compassion. .... I have no problem with the definition. Practically, though, I think attachment slips in all the time. Isn’t the wish so often because it’s my child, my wife, my friend, wishing them less suffering? Not ‘bearing’ or ‘wishing’ to see the suffering of dear ones and so on. Only sati and panna can know at any moment. ..... > I am suggesting using feelings to determine compassion or not so > that one can avoid being fooled by the near enemy, aversion. From my > experience, aversion tends to push compassion aside a lot more > easily than lobha-mula cittas do. When I recognize lobha-mula cittas > at times that I feel it is appropriate to have compassion, I feel > like a hypocrite - "Here they are suffering, and all I can think > about is myself!" .... It may easily be thinking of the others with attachment too, I think, as I just said. I’m not at all sure that the characteristic of compassion or other states can ever be known, merely by ‘using feelings’, though I do agree about unpleasant feelings, aversion and the near enemy here. ..... >On the other hand, when I should be feeling > compassion, righteous indignation about "how unfair it is" often > creeps in and stays around for a while (mentally proliferates). .... And there can be attachment with these states as well..Clinging to the indignation and view, being fooled again, I think as you suggest. .... > Mahasi Sayadaw uses "trebling of the heart" as part of the > definition of compassion. Mahasi Sayadaw uses "delaying of hapiness" > (kam sukham rundhatiti = karuna) as a definition of compassion. > > ===== I’ve skipped your comments about ‘balancing’ brahma viharas and Nyanaponika’s comments for now;-) OK, I’ve found the reference for you for ‘trembling heart;-) Vism 1X, 92: “paradukkhe sati saadhuuna.m hadaya-kampana.m karoti” Nanamoli’s transl: “When there is suffering in others it causes (karoti) good people’s hearts to be moved (kampana), thus it is karu.naa.” Looking at the Stede, Rhys Davids dictionary, with reference to the Sutta Nipata commentary on ‘The Rhinoceros Horn: “SnA 128 (on SN73) explains karuna as “ahita-dukkh-aapanaya-kaamataa”, the desire of removing bane and sorrow (from one’s fellow-men), whilst metta is explained as “hita-sukh-uupanaya-kaamataa,” the diesire of bringing (to one’s fellow-men) that which is welfare and good. Many more definitions given with references. .... > My view on radiating is that the benefit goes to the being doing the > radiating, not the being that is radiated to. The benefit is the > developing an accumulation through nuturing a habit. .... I understand. I think this may come from the exalted state of compassion for all beings (“karuna sahagaena cetasaa”, i.e extending in all directions). Like we discussed on the metta sutta and its commentary, this refers to highly developed (jhana level) brahma viharas as samatha objects, I think. Vism continuing from the reference I gave above; “or alternatively, it combats (ki.naati) others’ suffering, attacks and demolishes it, thus it is compassion. Or alternatively, it is scattered (kiriyati) upon those who suffer, it is extended to them by pervasion, thus it is compassion (karu.naa). <..> 94 “Compassion is characterised as promoting the aspect of allaying suffering. (paradukkhaasahana-rasaa). Its function resides in not bearing others’ suffering ....” Plenty more to consider.... Metta, Sarah p.s Newbies: I forget to mention that thanks to RobM’s painstaking work, we have the entire archives for DSG in easy to scroll through word documents (all yahoo blurb and ads removed). This is particularly useful for those who travel, have limited internet access, wish to use these for searches or for reading through the archives like a novel. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/ ===================================== 26622 From: Sarah Date: Tue Nov 4, 2003 2:05am Subject: Myanmar5: Equalizing/Balancing/Coupling of Faculties Dear RobM, Nina & All, This is a difficult topic for me. RobM gave a good summary of what we find in the texts in his post on saddha (confidence). As usual, he encouraged me to investigate further;-): http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/m19577.html RobM: >Saddha is one of the "controlling faculties" that exercise leadership over the accompanied mental states. Other controlling faculties include wisdom, energy, concentration and mindfulness. There must be a balance of the controlling faculties: - Too much saddha and too little wisdom leads to blind faith - Too little saddha and too much wisdom leads to cunning - Too much saddha and too little energy leads to no exertion - Too little saddha and too much energy leads to no resolve - Too much saddha and too little concentration makes one easily distracted - Too little saddha and too much concentration inhibits absorption (jhana) - Too much saddha and too little mindfulness does not provide a foundation - Too little saddha and too much mindfulness does not allow comprehension< =============== Support from texts is easy to find. For example, in the commentary and sub-commentary to the Satipatthana Sutta (SS), which we went through on DSG, we read (p.139 Soma transl): “He who is very strong in faith and feeble in wisdom becomes a person who believes in foolish people who have no virtue, persons who are not trustworthy. He who has very strong wisdom and feeble faith gets crafty-minded, and is like a drug-produced disease that cannot be cured. Such a person thinks that wholesome karma arises with just the intention to do good. Going along the wrong way, by a species of thought beyond the limits of reason, and doing neither almsgiving nor other similar good deeds, he is born in a state of woe. By the equipollence of faith and wisdom one believes only in those like the Buddha who are worthy of trust because there is a reason for trusting them........” Many other examples are given in the text for the other states. ***** My question, which I raised in Bangkok, was how there can be too much confidence or too much wisdom, for example. Also, surely saddha cannot develop without wisdom and so often if there are thoughts about ‘balancing faculties’, it is with an idea of self or selection again. There were further questions too. We had several discussions and many examples were given. Just like in this example above from the Tika to the SS, people may think they know more than they really do,’beyond the limits of reason’, having studied a lot from the Abhidhamma or other texts or being able to recite in Pali, for example, but with little saddha or sati. It may be panna, but at an intellectual level only, so that there are bound to still be lots of doubts and wavering an no real insight. Conversely, someone may prostrate before a Buddha image many times a day and have a lot of saddha, but very little understanding of the teachings. The saddha is genuine, but there can be lots of wrong understanding in between, leading to the following of foolish people etc as mentioned in the Tika. A.Sujin mentioned that at moments of satipatthana, the faculties are balanced already, not just at noble path moments as I’d understood. Presumably this is why we read about the examples in the Tika to the SS. When there is no satipatthana, they are unbalanced. Samatha/samadhi and vipassana are a ‘coupling’. This doesn’t refer to jhana level samadhi and vipassana. There are many levels of samadhi and sati. At vipassana nana, samatha and vipassana appear together and show the characteristics of namas and rupas at that moment. ..... In SN, Mahaavagga,45 Maggasa.myutta,4 (The Brahmin)Bodhi transl we read about the ‘divine vehicle in this Dhamma and Discipline’, ie the Noble Eightfold Path, ‘the unsurpassed victory in battle’: “Its qualities of faith and wisdom Are always yoked evenly together. Shame is its pole, mind its yoke-tie, mindfulness the watchful charioteer. The chariot’s ornament is virtue, Its axle jhana*, energy its wheels; Equanmimity keeps the burden balanced, Desirelessness serves as upholstery. Good will, harmlessness, and seclusion: These are the chariot’s weaponry, Forbearance its armour and shield, As it rolls towards security from bondage. This divine vehicle unsurpassed Originates from within oneself. The wise depart from the world in it, Inevitably winning the victory.” ***** * “BB:jhaanakkho. Spk: ‘The axle made of jhaana by way of the five jhana factors accompanying insight’. The five jhana factors are thought, examination, rapture, happiness, and one pointedness of mind. Though when fully mature they bring the mind to the first jhana, these factors are also present, though less prominently, in the concentration that accompanies insight meditation.” ***** I also intented to quote from a post Nina wrote before on coupling/balancing from the Patisambhidamagga passages which had partly prompted my qus. As this post is already long , I’ll give the link and a textual quote after signing off without saying more. It’s not an easy topic and I’ll be glad to hear any further comments. As usual it helps to remember these are conditioned states and anatta - no self to direct or balance;-) Metta, Sarah http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/m9254.html Nina: >Now going to the Patisambidhamagga, English p. 291, using Larry's quote: -------------- At the time of developing the eight mundane attainments the serenity power is in excess, while at the time of developing the contemplations of impermanence, etc., the insight power is in excess. But at the noble path moment they occur coupled together in the sense that neither one exceeds the other. So there is coupling of the powers in the case of each one of these four kinds of knowledge, according as it is said 'When he emerges from the defilements associated with agitation, and from the aggregates, his mental unification, non-distraction, concentration, has cessation as its domain. When he emerges from the defilements associated with ignorance and from the aggregates, his insight in the sense of contemplation has cessation as its domain. So serenity and insight have a single nature in the sense of emergence, they are coupled together, and neither exceeds the other. Hence it was said: He develops serenity and insight coupled together in the sense of emergence' ========== 26623 From: Sarah Date: Tue Nov 4, 2003 2:13am Subject: Re: [dsg] FW: [Pali] Pali - Every few days - [B094] Dear Nina, Thank you for f/w this passage again with the Pali. I know RobM has posted it before and some people find it difficult to accept that wrong deeds performed 'unknowingly' carry a stiffer penalty, so to speak. I gave a few speculative reasons of my own and tried without success to find more detail and explanation in other texts. I wonder if you or anyone else has more detail or explanation on this as it tends to recur. Metta, Sarah ===== --- nina van gorkom wrote: > Raajaa aaha: ?Bhante Naagasena, yo jaananto > paapakamma.m karoti, yo ajaananto paapakamma.m karoti, > kassa bahutara.m apu~n~nan?ti? > The king said: "Venerable Nagasena, for whom is the > greater demerit, one who knowingly does evil, or one > who does evil unknowingly?? > > Thero aaha ?yo kho, mahaaraaja, ajaananto paapakamma.m > karoti, tassa bahutara.m apu~n~nan?ti. > The elder replied: "Indeed, great king, for him who > does evil not knowing is the greater demerit?. 26624 From: buddhatrue Date: Tue Nov 4, 2003 3:58am Subject: Re: Reflections on Wife family, children and cats - To have or not to have --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" wrote: > I'm not sure, but I suspect that > there is a Vinaya rule against keeping pets, because of the > attachment that this fosters. Hi Rob M, Just a small point of clarification, there aren't any Vinaya rules against keeping pets. Monks and nuns can feed and care for animals. I know for example that in Thailand several stray and abandoned dogs stay on temple grounds because the monks will feed them. At my temple in Arizona there are several dogs and cats which the monks feed and care for. Some dogs have been there so long they even have their own doghouses! ;-) There is a cute story concerning dogs and monks. The famous meditation monk Ajahn Chah decided one day that he didn't like having stray dogs running all over the temple grounds so he ordered that all the dogs be put outside of the gates and the gates closed. Sometime after locking the dogs out, he noticed that the squirrels around the temple became lazy and over-confident. He then ordered that the gates be re-opened and the dogs allowed back inside: he wanted to keep everyone and everything at his temple on their toes! ;-) I think the point is that having a pet doesn't necessarily lead to attachment. It will be up to each person as to how they treat and view that pet. Metta, James 26625 From: Date: Mon Nov 3, 2003 11:11pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Act of consciousness Hi, Larry - I insert one comment in the middle of your post. In a message dated 11/3/03 5:53:36 PM Eastern Standard Time, LBIDD@w... writes: > > Hi Jon and Howard, > > Howard, I think Jon and I are having a similar conversation about the > nature of consciousness/experience. In other, non-Theravada > traditions consciousness is likened to a crystal that takes on the > characteristics of whatever it touches. A crystal on a piece of red > cloth is colored red. In the same way, consciousness OF red is red > consciousness and consciousness WITH anger is angry consciousness. > This way of understanding consciousness makes sense to me and it > seems to make sense out of the 121 kinds of consciousness, which > otherwise are not different kinds of consciousness but different > combinations of cetasikas and rupas. > ----------------------------------------------------------- Howard: I find this model to be enticing, because it is aesthetically pleasing, but probably more so because it plays into my very-much-remaining *sense* of self and thingness. However, I don't believe in this model. This model suggests to me a "consciousness substance" a bit like a liquid, like a vanilla ice cream, into which various add-ons such as cookies, fudge sauce, marshmallow sauce, and so on, are mixed. This is not the way I think about matters. I think, instead, of a series of impersonal cognitive *events*. Each occurrence consists of the knowing of an object in the context of a sense-door activation. The knowing aspect of the event is what we call vi~n~nana, the known aspect is aramanna, the doorway is dvara, and the cooccurrence is phassa. Whether one such event "flows" into the next or whether the process is better described discretely is something I don't know, but is, I think, less important than the event-nature of what is happening as opposed to a substance-nature or thing-nature. At the same time as there is a contact event, other related functions are operative, the so called cetasikas. But it is all a matter of events / functions / operations. ---------------------------------------------------------- > > Using this model of the crystal I would call this consciousness > subjectivity. The question remains, how to account for objectivity? > Perhaps we could say the two cetasikas "view" (ditthi) > and "mindfulness" each somehow engineer a point of view. We could > call this experiential point of view objectivity. Obviously there are > differences between the objectivity of view and the objectivity of > mindfulness. Most notably, the "point of view" of view seems like > self while the "point of view" of mindfulness doesn't. This way of > understanding objectivity would also give a real, experiential > manifestation to view instead of being merely opinion and belief > (concept). > > I don't know if it is significant but this model would also mean that > objectivity is a kind of subjectivity. Consciousness WITH mindfulness > is mindful consciousness and the same for view. Comments? I'm > particularly interested in how to account for the experience of > objectivity, both wholesome and unwholesome, and whether you think > this simile of the crystal will fly in Theravada. > > Larry > > ============================= With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 26626 From: Date: Mon Nov 3, 2003 11:24pm Subject: Re: [dsg] The paradox of Annatta (not-self) and transmigration Hi, Nori - In a message dated 11/3/03 6:09:46 PM Eastern Standard Time, nori_public@a... writes: > hi all, > > I know there is probably no chance of intelectualizing this in words > but I'll throw it out there anyway. > > If there is no-self (soul), then what transmigrates? > > (I have a feeling I asked this before, if so, sorry.) > > > one, > nori > ============================== When there is a line of billiard balls, and you quickly strike the first of these with the cue ball, the cue ball stops and the last ball in the line moves. Was the motion of the last ball the very "same" motion that the cue ball had? Did "that" motion transmigrate? Or ... is it the case that the movement of the cue ball was condition for the subsequent movement of the last ball in the line? Was the moving a "thing" that was "passed on"? Or is it simply a matter of the occurrence and cessation of one event serving as condition for the occurrence of a subsequent of a subsequent event. The Buddhist choice in each case is, I believe, the second. It is the same for rebirth. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 26627 From: robmoult Date: Tue Nov 4, 2003 5:24am Subject: Re: Reflections on Wife family, children and cats - To have or not to have Hi James, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" > wrote: > > > I'm not sure, but I suspect that > > there is a Vinaya rule against keeping pets, because of the > > attachment that this fosters. > > Just a small point of clarification, there aren't any Vinaya rules > against keeping pets. Monks and nuns can feed and care for animals. > I know for example that in Thailand several stray and abandoned dogs > stay on temple grounds because the monks will feed them. At my > temple in Arizona there are several dogs and cats which the monks > feed and care for. Some dogs have been there so long they even have > their own doghouses! ;-) > > I think the point is that having a pet doesn't necessarily lead to > attachment. It will be up to each person as to how they treat and > view that pet. Thanks James, come to think of it, most of the temples that I have visited have animals around. Metta, Rob M :-) 26628 From: Kenneth Ong Date: Tue Nov 4, 2003 5:30am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: kamma and vipaka Hi Nori It is true that anything from kusala can be akusala in just nanoseconds and we know that dhamma is very deep but that I think should not discourage us. With sati, we with keep akusala in check and with exhortion and resolve we keep producing good kusalas. Choose if you have to and I wonder which side you like to be in (kusala or akusala), just remember to put on your safety belts (satipatthana) :). Never and never be discourage just bc there are more akusala, Buddha himself also begin just like us aeons and aeons ago. Kind rgds Ken O --- connie wrote: > Hi, Ken O > > I like to think that all kusala leads to more kusala, but as Nina's > Conditions states: > > If we do not develop satipatthana with the purpose of eradicating > akusala, the kusala we perform can, without our noticing it, be a > natural decisive support-condition for akusala citta. ... > ...Akusala can also be a natural decisive support-condition for > kusala. > Because of aversion towards akusala vipaka or attachment to kusala > vipaka one may perform good deeds. > > More reminders that most of our lives involve more akusala than > kusala > and that things aren't as simple as they seem. > > peace, > connie 26629 From: robmoult Date: Tue Nov 4, 2003 5:32am Subject: Help required from Bkk contingent of DSG Hi All, Next Thursday (Nov 13th), I will have an afternoon free in Bangkok and I would like to visit Khun Sujin (I haven't met her yet). Can one of the Bangkok DSG members let me know if Khun Sujin is available at that time. I can take a cab to meet Khun Sujin, but I will need a handphone number of a DSG member who can explain in Thai how to get to where Khun Sujin is. Please respond to my email address. Metta, Rob M :-) 26630 From: Molly Date: Tue Nov 4, 2003 6:24am Subject: dhamma urgency to do good the dhamma has an urgency because of the knowledge it contains. it knows everything and it urges us to act according to the laws of cause and effect above all else. Logic is the master of the universe, nothing else. kamma is no unacceptable concept to be feared. it is our only friend. it shines like a beacon in the night of ignorance and folly!!! dhamma friends dhamma friends. the delusion of I is the string which holds together the khanda, the experiences of rupa and nama (sense door consciousness, feeling, evaluating, reacting... again rupa-nama... again rupa-nama... and on and on until we break the chain of personality belief, wallowing in self pity is our last aversion strong hold which we must abandon for the light of anatta. blessed be the dhamma and the saints who keep the dhamma wheel turning for our benefit. the real saints and sages always urge us to do good for the benefit of all beings as the dhamma is clear and leaves no doubts. http://www.webcom.com/imcuk/ledi/MANUAL10.html 26631 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Nov 4, 2003 10:18am Subject: FW: Co to the Raahulovaadasutta 21 B Co to the Raahulovaadasutta 21 B Relevant Sutta passage: ``pathaviisama.m, raahula, bhaavana.m bhaavehi. pathaviisama~nhi te, raahula, bhaavana.m bhaavayato uppannaa manaapaamanaapaa phassaa citta.m na pariyaadaaya .thassanti. Apply yourself to the mental development that is like the earth, Rahula, For, Rahula, agreeable and disagreeable impressions that have arisen when you apply yourself to the mental development that is like the earth, will not persistently overwhelm the mind. Commentary: 119. idaanissa taadibhaavalakkha.na.m aacikkhanto pathaviisamantiaadimaaha. Now he said to him, when explaining the characteristic of such nature (of the highest qualification), ³like the earth² and so on. i.t.thaani.t.thesu hi arajjanto adussanto taadii naama hoti. Someone who is not attached nor has aversion with regard to the desirable and the undesirable is called ³of such nature². manaapaamanaapaati ettha a.t.tha lobhasahagatacittasampayuttaa manaapaa naama, With regard to the words agreeable and disagreeable, here the eight types of consciousness accompanied by attachment are called agreeable, dve domanassacittasampayuttaa amanaapaa naama. and two types of consciousness accompanied by unpleasant feeling are called disagreeable *. citta.m na pariyaadaaya .thassantiiti ete phassaa uppajjitvaa With reference to the expression, they do not persistently obsess the mind, this means, when these impressions have arisen, tava citta.m antomu.t.thigata.m karonto viya pariyaadaaya gahetvaa .thaatu.m na sakkhissanti. they cannot persistently overwhelm your mind when you have mastered them by putting them as it were inside a clenched fist. ``aha.m sobhaami,mayha.m va.n.naayatana.m pasanna''nti With regard to thoughts such as, ³I am beautiful, my appearance is splendid², puna attabhaava.m nissaaya chandaraago nuppajjissati. attachment that is dependent on the body does not arise again. guuthagatantiaadiisu guuthameva guuthagata.m. eva.m sabbattha. As to the expression, ordure and so on, it is truly excrement, filthy in all respects. English text: Now he said, when explaining the characteristic of such nature (of the highest qualification), ³like the earth² and so on. not being attached nor having aversion with regard to the desirable and the undesirable is ³suchness². With regard to the words agreeable and disagreeable, here the eight types of consciousness accompanied by attachment are agreeable, and two types of consciousness accompanied by unpleasant feeling are disagreeable *. With reference to the expression, they do not persistently obsess the mind, this means, when these impressions have arisen, they cannot persistently overwhelm your mind when you have mastered them, by putting them as it were inside a clenched fist. With regard to thoughts such as, ³I am beautiful, my appearance is splendid², attachment that is dependent on the body does not arise again. As to the expression, ordure and so on, it is truly excrement, filthy in all respects. __________ * note: There are eight (a.t.tha) akusala cittas rooted in lobha: four with pleasant feeling, four with indifferent feeling, four with wrong view (di.t.thi), four without wrong view, four not induced or spontaneous(asa²nkhaarika) and four induced (sasa²nkhaarika) There are two akusala cittas rooted in dosa: domanassacittasampayuttaa: consciousness accompanied by unpleasant feeling (that is: citta rooted in aversion or hate). One of them is not induced (asa²nkhaarika) and one is induced (sasa²nkhaarika). ***** Nina 26632 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Nov 4, 2003 10:18am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: loss Dear Sue, Sue: I have a difficulty > with one particular memory. My son committed suicide at the age of > 28. I do think of him every day even though it is painful. In > addition, I light candles and say prayers for him on each anniversary > of the day he died. >> >> I will do the same this year on 9th November. I realise that this > is a form of attachment on my part and one should try to free oneself > from attachments, but this seems impossible for me in this case. James: I think that everyone has given you some good advice. I don't think > that I can really add much. Nina: I agree with James. I was touched very much by all the compassionate words of advice of those who had similar experiences. I also think of the sutta quoted by Victor: Such a loss happened not only in this life, but in countless former lives. So long as we are in the cycle of birth and death it will happen again and again. The person who is departed is gone but there are conditions for a new life, rebirth again. It is not the same person, but there is a connection: the life that is gone conditions the new life. There are still five khandhas arising and falling away. I find this a consoling thought: we can do something for departed ones. Dana, generosity is not only the giving away of material things, but there can be a mental gift: when you appreciate someone else's kusala and express your appreciation, it is a kind of dana, anumodana dana. When you give other people, be they alive or departed, the opportunity to appreciate your kusala, there is again another kind of dana. it is sometimes called extension of merit, but this term is misleading. You cannot actually transfer your kusala, but you can help others to have kusala citta as well. In the "Minor Readings" of the Khuddaka Nikaya, and its Commentary, the Illuistrator of ultimate Meaning, Ch VII, "Without the Walls Discourse", we read that King Bimbisara offered a meal to the Buddha but neglected to offer his kusala for the benefit of departed relatives who were in the ghost plane. Afterwards he remembered. We read in the sutta that the Buddha said: In Thailand we express our intention to help also departed ones by offering up our kusala after a Dhamma session. We all say aloud a beautiful text. We did the same at the holy places in India. One can say to oneself the names of dear departed ones. This could be a helpful thought for you when you light candles. At the moment of kusala citta there is no room for sorrow. Sorrow will arise again, but it can be alternated with kusala citta. Nina. 26633 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Nov 4, 2003 10:18am Subject: Re: [dsg] Chiangmai / Pai Dear Azita and Thomas, I liked Azita's report and reminder about patience. op 04-11-2003 01:59 schreef nordwest op tnordwest@y...: > Thank you, yes, patience is the greatest teacher. Buddha also said, "The > greatest prayer is patience." N: We cannot pray for it, it is much more difficult, Thomas. Dhammapada: vs 184: Forbearing patience is the hishest ascetism. It can and should be trained. It is one of the perfections the Bodhisatta accumulated. But when something in a day is the last drop I fail miserably, I fail the test. Nina. 26634 From: robmoult Date: Tue Nov 4, 2003 1:23pm Subject: Re: Myanmar5: Equalizing/Balancing/Coupling of Faculties Hi Sarah, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > ***** > My question, which I raised in Bangkok, was how there can be too much > confidence or too much wisdom, for example. Also, surely saddha cannot > develop without wisdom and so often if there are thoughts about `balancing > faculties', it is with an idea of self or selection again. ===== Perhaps the answer links back to the Myanmar4 post, accumulations. Every time we do something, it strengthens an accumulation and this accumulation (together with other accumulations) automatically directs and controls the mental flow. For example, if one tends to have many, many moments that are strong in saddha, then this will create a very strong accumulation towards faith. If there are very few other moments that are strong in panna, then the accumulation towards panna will be weak. When such a person (strong saddha accumulation, weak panna accumulation) faces a situation, the strong saddha accumulation may "highjack" the mental process and lead it toward an approach described at a macro-level as "blind faith". Of course, every kusala citta includes the cetasika saddha. However, this does not imply that every kusala action has an equal impact on the accumulation of saddha. Moments that are "strong in saddha" (deepen the accumulation of saddha) are separate from the moments that are "strong in panna" (deepen the accumulation of panna). My interpretation of the texts on Equalizing/Balancing/Coupling of Faculties is that one must have a balanced approach to developing accumulations so that the response to all situations is balanced. At the micro (citta) level, we have the cetasika tatramajjhattata (literally "remaining here and there in the middle"), which arises in every kusala citta. This is the balance of citta and cetasikas. Tatramajjhattata allows an object to be viewed with impartiality. It affects the balance of the citta and the cetasikas it arises together with, so that there is neither deficiency nor excess of any one among them. At the macro (accumulations) level, we have the need to balance accumulations; I gave the example of the need to balance the spiritual faculties, but as explained by Nyanaponika, accumulations of the brahmaviharas also need to be balanced. Sarah, I tend to see accumulations as central to many aspects of the Dhamma and I continue to be nervous that this subject does not appear to be given prominence in the texts. Comments? Metta, Rob M :-) 26635 From: robmoult Date: Tue Nov 4, 2003 1:36pm Subject: Re: dhamma urgency to do good Hi Molly, Welcome to DSG :-) Your post below is excellent. Normally, netiquette obliges that we trim posts in our replies, but I have left yours intact with the hope that more people might read it. Look forward to more posts from you (its great when somebody "delurks"). Metta, Rob M :-) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Molly" wrote: > the dhamma has an urgency because of the knowledge it contains. it > knows everything and it urges us to act according to the laws of > cause and effect above all else. Logic is the master of the universe, > nothing else. kamma is no unacceptable concept to be feared. it is > our only friend. it shines like a beacon in the night of ignorance > and folly!!! dhamma friends dhamma friends. the delusion of I is the > string which holds together the khanda, the experiences of rupa and > nama (sense door consciousness, feeling, evaluating, reacting... > again rupa-nama... again rupa-nama... and on and on until we break > the chain of personality belief, wallowing in self pity is our last > aversion strong hold which we must abandon for the light of anatta. > blessed be the dhamma and the saints who keep the dhamma wheel > turning for our benefit. > the real saints and sages always urge us to do good for the benefit > of all beings as the dhamma is clear and leaves no doubts. > > http://www.webcom.com/imcuk/ledi/MANUAL10.html 26636 From: connie Date: Tue Nov 4, 2003 1:50pm Subject: Re: Myanmar4 - decisive support, accumulations, desirable object, kamma Hi Sarah and All, S: 'pakatuupanissaya'. So accumulations includes everything 'including concepts and rupas' conditioning at this moment. Who knows the accumulations of each person and how anyone will respond at any moment? By pakatuupanissaya, accumulations can be traced back over aeons and aeons. Anything can be a condition as a result. C: Anything but kiriya can be vipaka? I think I'm trying to fit pieces into the wrong holes... trying to relate 'pakatuupanissaya' to both "effortless quiet", whatever that means, and Jon's "(ben puu) mii-pokati charoen (satipatthaan)" [(one who) develops (satipatthana) naturally/habitually] because I like the sound of them and haven't come up with a good definition for "effortless quiet". Ben puu mii-pokati charoen papa~nca could be my new mantra as I go about tying more loose ends into my tangled skein. Vsm XVII, 89: (14) A resultant state that, by effortless quiet, assists effortless quiet [in other states] is a kamma-result condition. In the course of an existence it is a condition for states originated by it, and at rebirth-linking for the kinds of materiality due to kamma performed, and in both cases for the associated states, according as it is said 'One resultant indeterminate aggregate is a condition, as kamma-result condition, for three aggregates and for the kinds of materialtiy originated by consciousness...At the moment of rebirth linking one resultant indeterminate aggregate [is a condition...] for three aggregates...Three aggregates [are a condition...] for one aggregate...Two aggregates are a condition, as kamma-result condition, for two aggregates and for the kinds of materiality due to kamma performed. Aggregates are a condition as kamma-result condition, for the physical basis' (P.tn 1.173). Nina's Conditions: As to vipaka-condition, citta and its accompanying cetasikas which are vipaka condition one another by being vipaka. The realities involved in vipaka-condition are phenomena which are conascent, arising at the same time. We read in the Visuddhimagga (XVII,89) that they assist one another "by effortless quiet". They are merely vipaka, they have no other activity. The nature of vipakacitta is altogether different from the nature of kusala citta and akusala citta which are active in the wholesome way or in the unwholesome way. Vipakacitta and its accompanying cetasikas also condition one another by way of conascence-condition and by way of mutuality-condition (see Ch 5). Throughout life kamma produces vipakacittas arising in processes of cittas which experience pleasant or unpleasant objects. Seeing, for example, is vipakacitta which experiences a pleasant or unpleasant visible object through the eyesense. It merely sees, it does not know whether the object is pleasant or unpleasant. Citta and the accompanying cetasikas condition one another by way of vipaka-condition, they assist one another in "effortless quiet". The succeeding receiving-consciousness, sampaticchana-citta , is also vipakacitta, and this is succeeded by another vipakacitta, the investigating-consciousness, santirana-citta. This is succeeded by the determining-consciousness, the votthapana-citta, which is a kiriyacitta. After that the javana-cittas arise which are, in the case of non-arahats, kusala cittas or akusala cittas. When the object is pleasant, lobha-mula-cittas are likely to arise and when the object is unpleasant, dosa-mula-cittas are likely to arise. There are seven javana-cittas arising, succeeding one another. C: Do you think all three kinds of upanissaya (decisive support or strong dependence)-paccaya are/function 'by way of accumulations'? (The 3 being decisive support of: object - arammanupanissaya, proximity - anantarupanissaya and natural condition - pakutapanissaya). I've always thought of accumulations as mental, but can't we also say it's the case that with something like aging (mii-pokati charoen!), we're talking about accumulated (effects of the) fire element... Khanda (nama and rupa) = aggregate = accumulations. I hope, btw, that the fires in your limbs are subsiding and you're experiencing more of the air element, with wise attention, of course. peace, connie 26637 From: robmoult Date: Tue Nov 4, 2003 2:19pm Subject: Re: Myanmar4 - decisive support, accumulations, desirable object, kamma Hi Connie, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "connie" wrote: > S: > 'pakatuupanissaya'. So accumulations includes everything 'including > concepts and rupas' conditioning at this moment. Who knows the > accumulations of each person and how anyone will respond at any moment? > By pakatuupanissaya, accumulations can be traced back over aeons and > aeons. Anything can be a condition as a result. > > C: > Anything but kiriya can be vipaka? ===== R: Sorry, Connie, I don't think that this is a correct interpretation. Natural decisive support condition (pakatuupanissaya) aka accumulations, works as a condition for every citta: - At time of rebirth (patisandhikala), accumulations are one of the conditions that allow the bhavanga citta to arise - During the course of existence (pavattikala), accumulations are one of the conditions that allow the arising of all other cittas; accumulations impact which objects enter the sense door (vipaka), accumulations impact the determining citta (kiriya) that "chooses" between kusala and akusala javana, accumulations also condition the type of javana citta that arises. The conditioned state for accumulations is only citta, the conditioning states can be concepts, past 89 cittas with their associated 52 cetasikas or even the 28 types of rupa. It seems that anything can be a condioning state for accumulations; the only requirement is that it is "strong" and "past". ===== > C: > Do you think all three kinds of upanissaya (decisive support or strong > dependence)-paccaya are/function 'by way of accumulations'? (The 3 being > decisive support of: object - arammanupanissaya, proximity - > anantarupanissaya and natural condition - pakutapanissaya). ===== R: My understanding is that only the third (natural decisive support) functions by way of accumulations. Object decisive support condition is the same as object predominance condition and proximity decisive support is the same as proximity condition. ===== > I've always > thought of accumulations as mental, but can't we also say it's the case > that with something like aging (mii-pokati charoen!), we're talking > about accumulated (effects of the) fire element... > Khanda (nama and rupa) = aggregate = accumulations. ===== R: The conditioned states of natural decisive support condition are always mental, however the conditioning states include strong past concepts, cittas, cetasikas and rupas. Metta, Rob M :-) 26638 From: Date: Tue Nov 4, 2003 4:02pm Subject: Vism. XIV 34, 35, 36 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) Ch. XIV [THE MATERIALITY AGGREGATE] 34. Herein, all kinds of states whatsoever that have the characteristic of 'being molested' (ruppana) by cold, etc., taken all together should be understood as the materiality (ruupa) aggregate. 1. That is of one kind with the characteristic of 'being molested'. 2. It is also of two kinds when classed as (a) primary entity (bhuuta) and (b) derived [by clinging] (upaadaaya). 35. Herein (a) "primary materiality" is of four kinds as the earth element, water element, fire element, and air element. Their characteristic, function, and manifestation have been given under the definition of the four elements (Ch. XI, 87, 93); but as to the proximate cause, each has the other three as its proximate cause. [444] 36. (b) "Derived materiality" is of twenty-four kinds as eye, ear, nose, tongue, body, visible datum, sound, odour, flavour (13), feminity faculty, masculinity faculty, life faculty, heart-basis; bodily intimation,verbal intimation; space element; lightness of matter, malleability of matter, wieldiness of matter, growth of matter, continuity of matter, ageing of matter, impermanence of matter, and physical nutriment. ------------------------- (13) 'Tangible data are omitted from this list because, not being derived matter, they are included in the primaries' (Pm.442). They are described as consisting of three of the four primaries, excluding the water (cohesion) element. 'What is the materiality of the great primaries? It is the tangible-data base and the water-element' (Dhs.663). For the whole list see Dhs. 596, in which (N.B) the heart-base does not appear. See also note 32 Ch. XV, n.15. 26639 From: norakat147 Date: Tue Nov 4, 2003 5:33pm Subject: [dsg] Re: The paradox of Annatta (not-self) and transmigration hi victor, Not "Atta", but "Atman". They are completely different words. Atman is a vedic/B. Gita/ hindu term. metta, nori --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "yu_zhonghao" wrote: > Hi Nori, > > Let's me ask this question: > > How do you know that the Buddha used the word "atta"/"self" in his > teaching as a vedic/hindu term? > > Please do investigate further how the word "atta"/"self" is used in > the Buddha's teaching as recorded in the discourses. > > A possible starting point: > > Dhammapada XII > Self > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/khuddaka/dhp/12.html > > Peace, > Victor > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "norakat147" > wrote: > > Hi Thomas, > [snip] 26640 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Tue Nov 4, 2003 6:18pm Subject: [dsg] Re: The paradox of Annatta (not-self) and transmigration Hi Nori, Then I would ask this question: How do you know the Buddha used the word "atman", a vedic/B.Gita/hindu term, if the Buddha used it in his teaching at all? Peace, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "norakat147" wrote: > hi victor, > > Not "Atta", but "Atman". They are completely different words. > > Atman is a vedic/B. Gita/ hindu term. > > metta, > nori 26641 From: Date: Tue Nov 4, 2003 6:23pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Act of consciousness Hi Howard, I don't exactly follow your reasoning here but I suspect you are edging into madhyamaka. If so, as you know, there is no response to that. What can I say? Larry ------------------------ Howard: "I find this model to be enticing, because it is aesthetically pleasing, but probably more so because it plays into my very-much-remaining *sense* of self and thingness. However, I don't believe in this model. This model suggests to me a "consciousness substance" a bit like a liquid, like a vanilla ice cream, into which various add-ons such as cookies, fudge sauce, marshmallow sauce, and so on, are mixed. This is not the way I think about matters. I think, instead, of a series of impersonal cognitive *events*. Each occurrence consists of the knowing of an object in the context of a sense-door activation. The knowing aspect of the event is what we call vi~n~nana, the known aspect is aramanna, the doorway is dvara, and the cooccurrence is phassa. Whether one such event "flows" into the next or whether the process is better described discretely is something I don't know, but is, I think, less important than the event-nature of what is happening as opposed to a substance-nature or thing-nature. At the same time as there is a contact event, other related functions are operative, the so called cetasikas. But it is all a matter of events / functions / operations." 26642 From: christine_forsyth Date: Tue Nov 4, 2003 6:39pm Subject: [dsg] Re: The paradox of Annatta (not-self) and transmigration Hiya Victor and Nori, Victor - I didn't know you were interested in the etymology and meaning of words This could open up a whole new rich field of quote and counter-quote {But would there be room in the archives, one wonders?} But I feel nothing comes close to the Pali Text Societys' Pali- English Dictionary - if you are really interested and can decipher it, you can search and locate where in the Pali Canon the terms were used.(from the fourth line down). http://dsal.uchicago.edu/dictionaries/pali/index.html Attan (p. 22) (m.) & atta (the latter is the form used in compn.) [Vedic atman, not to Gr. a)\nemos = Lat. animus, but to Gr. a)tmo/s steam, Ohg. atum breath, Ags. aepm]. -- I. Inflection. (1) of attan-- (n. stem); the foll. cases are the most freq.: acc. attanan D I.13, 185; S I.24; Sn 132, 451. -- gen. dat. attano Sn 334, 592 etc., also as abl. A III.337 (attano ca parato ca as regards himself and others). -- instr. abl. attana S I.24; Sn 132, 451; DhA II.75; PvA 15, 214 etc. On use of attana see below III.1 C. -- loc. attani S V.177; A I.149 (attani metri causa); II.52 (anattani); III.181; M I.138; Sn 666, 756, 784; Vbh 376 (an°). -- (2) of atta-- (a--stem) we find the foll. cases: acc. attan Dh 379. -- instr. attena S IV.54. -- abl. attato S I.188; Ps I.143; II.48; Vbh 336. nnMeanings. 1. The soul as postulated in the animistic theories held in N India in the 6th and 7th cent. B. C. It is described in the Upanishads as a small creature, in shape like a man, dwelling in ordinary times in the heart. It escapes from the body in sleep or trance; when it returns to the body life and motion reappear. It escapes from the body at death, then continues to carry on an everlasting life of its own. For numerous other details see Rh. D. Theory of Soul in the Upanishads J R A S 1899. Bt. India 251--255. Buddhism repudiated all such theories, thus differing from other religions. Sixteen such theories about the soul D I.31. Seven other theories D I.34. Three others D I.186/7. A "soul" according to general belief was some thing permanent, unchangeable, not affected by sorrow S IV.54 = Kvu 67; Vin I.14; M I.138. See also M I.233; III.265, 271; S II.17, 109; III.135; A I.284; II.164, 171; V.188; S IV.400. Cp. atuman, tuma, puggala, jiva, satta, pana and nama--rupa. nn2. Oneself, himself, yourself. Nom. atta, very rare. S I.71, 169; III.120; A I.57, 149 (you yourself know whether that is true or false. Cp. Manu VIII.84. Here atta comes very near to the European idea of conscience. But conscience as a unity or entity is not accepted by Buddhism) Sn 284; Dh 166, 380; Miln 54 (the image, outward appearance, of oneself). Acc. attanan S I.44 (would not give for himself, as a slave) A I.89; Sn 709. Acc. attan Dh 379. Abl. attato as oneself S I.188; Ps I.143; II.48; Vbh 336. Loc. attani A I.149; III.181; Sn 666, 784. Instr. attana S I.57 = Dh 66; S I.75; II.68; A I.53; III.211; IV.405; Dh 165. On one's own account, spontaneously S IV.307; V.354; A I.297; II.99, 218; III.81; J I.156; PvA 15, 20. In composition with numerals attadutiya himself and one other D II.147; °catuttha with himself as fourth M I.393; A III.36; ° pancama Dpvs VIII.2; °sattama J I.233; °atthama VvA 149 (as atta-- natthama Vv 3413), & °atthamaka Miln 291. nnanatta (n. and predicative adj.) not a soul, without a soul. Most freq. in combn. with dukkha & anicca -- (1) as noun: S III.141 (° anupassin); IV.49; V.345 (°sannin); A II.52 = Ps II.80 (anattani anatta; opp. to anattani atta, the opinion of the micchaditthigata satta); Dh 279; Ps II.37, 45 sq. (°anupassana), 106 (yan aniccan ca dukkhan ca tan anatta); DhA III. 406 (°lakkhana). -- (2) as adj. (pred.): S IV.152 sq.; S IV.166; S IV.130 sq., 148 sq.; Vin I.13 = S III.66 = Nd2 680 Q 1; S III.20 sq.; 178 sq., 196 sq.; sabbe dhamma anatta Vin V.86; S III.133; IV.28, 401. nn--attha one's own profit or interest Sn 75; Nd2 23; J IV.56, 96; otherwise as atta--d--attha, e. g. Sn 284. --atthiya looking after one's own needs Th 1, 1097. --adhipaka master of oneself, self-- mastered A I.150. --adhipateyya selfdependence, self--reliance, independence A I.147. --adhina independent D I.72. --anuditthi speculation about souls S III.185; IV.148; A III.447; Sn 1119; Ps I.143; Vbh 368; MilnQ 146. --anuyogin one who concentrates his attention on himself Dh 209; DhA III.275. --anuvada blaming oneself A II.121; Vbh 376. --unna self--humiliation Vbh 353 (+ att--avanna). -- uddesa relation to oneself Vin III.149 (= attano atthaya), also °ika ibid. 144. --kata self--made S I.134 (opp. para°). --kama love of self A II.21; adj. a lover of "soul", one who cares for his own soul S I.75. --kara individual self, fixed individuality, oneself (cp. ahankara) D I.53 (opp. para°); A III 337 (id.) DA I.160; as nt. at J V.401 in the sense of service (self--doing", slavery) (attakarani karonti bhattusu). --kilamatha self--mortification D III.113; S IV.330; V.421; M III.230. --garahin self--censuring Sn 778. --gutta selfguarded Dh 379. --gutti watchfulness as regards one's self, self-- care A II.72. --ghanna self--destruction Dh 164. --ja proceeding from oneself Dh 161 (papa). --nu knowing oneself A IV.113, cp. D III.252. - -(n)tapa self--mortifying, self--vexing D III.232 = A II.205 (opp. paran°); M I.341, 411; II.159; Pug 55, 56. --danda see atta1. --danta selfrestrained, self--controlled Dh 104, 322. --ditthi speculation concerning the nature of the soul Nd1 107; SnA 523, 527. --dipa relying on oneself, independent, founded on oneself (+ attasarana, opp. anna°) D II.100 = III.42; S V.154; Sn 501 (= attano gune eva attano dipan katva SnA 416). --paccakkha only in instr. °ena by or with his own presence, i. e. himself J V.119. --paccakkhika eye-- witness J V.119. --paccatthika hostile to oneself Vin II.94, 96. -- patilabha acquisition of a personality D I.195 (tayo: olarika, manomaya, arupa). --paritapana self--chastisement, mortification D III.232 = A II.205; M I.341; PvA 18, 30. --paritta charm (protection) for oneself Vin II.110. --paribhava disrespect for one's own person Vbh 353. --bhava one's own nature (1) person, personality, individuality, living creature; form, appearance [cp. Dhs trsl. LXXI and BSk. atmabhava body Divy 70, 73 (°pratilambha), 230; Sp. Av. Ś I.162 (pratilambha), 167, 171] Vin II.238 (living beings, forms); S V.442 (bodily appearance); A I.279 (olarika a substantial creature); II.17 (creature); DhA II.64, 69 (appearance); SnA 132 (personality). -- (2) life, rebirth A I.134 sq.; III.412; [p. 23] DhA II.68; PvA 8, 15, 166 (atita °a former lives). °n pavatteti to lead a life, to live PvA 29, 181. Thus in cpd. patilabha assumption of an existence, becoming reborn as an individual Vin II.185; III.105; D III.231; M III.46; S II.255, 272, 283; III.144; A II.159, 188; III.122 sq. -- (3) character, quality of heart Sn 388 (= citta SnA 374); J I.61. --rupa "of the form of self", self--like only in instr. °ena as adv. by oneself, on one's own account, for the sake of oneself S IV.97; A II.120. --vadha self--destruction S II.241; A II.73. --vada theory of (a persistent) soul D III.230; M I.66; D II.58; S II.3, 245 sq.; III.103, 165, 203; IV.1 sq., 43 sq., 153 sq.; Ps I.156 sq.; Vbh 136, 375. For var. points of an "attavadic" doctrine see Index to Sanyutta Nikaya. --vyabadha personal harm or distress self--suffering, one's own disaster (opp. para°) M I 369; S IV.339 = A I.157; A II.179. --vetana supporting oneself, earning one's own living Sn 24. --sancetana self--perception, self-- consciousness (opp. para°) D III.231; A II.159. --sambhava originating from one's self S I.70; A IV.312; Dh 161 (papa); Th 1, 260. --sambhuta arisen from oneself Sn 272. --sammapanidhi thorough pursuit or development of one's personality A II.32; Sn 260, cp. KhA 132. --sarana see °dipa. --sukha happiness of oneself, self--success Dpvs I.66, cp. II.11. --hita personal welfare one's own good (opp. para°) D III.233; A II.95 sq. --hetu for one's own sake, out of self-- consideration Sn 122; Dh 328. metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "yu_zhonghao" wrote: > Hi Nori, > > Then I would ask this question: > > How do you know the Buddha used the word "atman", a > vedic/B.Gita/hindu term, if the Buddha used it in his teaching at > all? > > Peace, > Victor > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "norakat147" > wrote: > > hi victor, > > > > Not "Atta", but "Atman". They are completely different words. > > > > Atman is a vedic/B. Gita/ hindu term. > > > > metta, > > nori 26643 From: Sukinderpal Singh Narula Date: Tue Nov 4, 2003 8:24pm Subject: Re: Pigs eating dung Hi Christine and All, I was hoping someone else would respond to this. ;-) I am not sure that I retain the understanding I had then. Btw, when K. Sujin gave the reply to my enquiry, only Jon was smart enough to detect the fact that I had heard only what I wanted to hear. A lesson which reminded me of the fact that often the Teachings will be interpreted in a way best suited to our preconceptions. Jon questioned and reminded me of Howard's oft used concept of `reification'. What I now understand about this matter is the following: 1. Rupa does have intrinsic qualities of agreeable / disagreeable. 2. Rupa arises and falls in an instant, lasting only as much as 17 citta moments. 3. Vipaka citta being either kusala or akusala is impossible to know. 4. Even if it were determined precisely on seeing `pig's dung' that it is akusala vipaka, and touching it is kusala vipaka, this says nothing about "pig's dung" in and of itself. As `pig's dung' is concept only, whereas the rupas of `softness' and `visible object' are real, but they last only 17 citta moments. Nothing about the experience should give rise to a general idea about `pig's dung' as being agreeable or not, through any particular doorway. As I understand it now, the commentaries mention these examples only to give a general idea with regard to and compare with our normal day- to- day perception of mistaking kusala and akusala reactions for vipaka and for using these to judge the intrinsic worth or not of `things'. In conclusion, there is never a reason to judge the value of anything beyond a particular moment of rise and fall. And considering that moments of vipaka fall away long before we know it, it is useless to even think too much about it, except in terms of general understanding of the way things are, theoretically. To talk about things as though they exist objectively out there not only in the past and in the future, but also in the present, is to reify, and this goes against the true spirit of studying Abhidhamma, I think. Hope I have not been totally off-track, if Sarah or anyone would like to correct me, please do. At least, I am certain that others can add and make this matter more clear. Do you Christine, have anything to add? Metta, Sukin. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Hello Sukin, Sarah, Jon, Azita, Shakti, Sandra, and All, > > Sukin :-) - I was thinking over when we went to the Kuthodaw Temple > where the Tipitaka is carved on 729 marble slabs, each in its > separate Jedi, arranged in rows according 'Baskets'. I remember 26644 From: christine_forsyth Date: Wed Nov 5, 2003 1:13am Subject: Re: Pigs eating dung Hello Sukin and All, Sukin - thank you for replying, you could have pretended not to notice. :-) I don't know if you are off-track or not, what you write is helpful for me to mull over - and someone else may help us (if they aren't all pretending not to notice us, that is ;-)). With regard to your 4 points: 1) I disagree. The taste and smell of pig dung would most likely be unpleasant to a human (depending on how 'fresh' it was, I rather like the smell of composted cow manure :-)) - but it may not be unpleasant to the pig, most dung beetles would find it appetising, that goes for earth-worms too, and my dog Rusty would find it a extremely attractive body lotion and afternoon tea snack. Not inherently/intrinsically unpleasant - depends on species and perception. If objects are inherently pleasant or unpleasant, this should be able to be known. Is 'inherent' different to 'intrinsic'? Couldn't we make ANY statement, and add the rider that even though it is true (the bible told me so?) it is impossible to know, ascertain or prove one way or the other? Just take it on blind faith. 2) I don't really know, but it is a refinement of what I understand, and I'm prepared to accept it. 3) I don't understand. Why is it so? Who/what decides? 4) I don't understand - in which case, how can anything be inherently/intrinsically pleasant or unpleasant. Am I winning or losing yet? metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Sukinderpal Singh Narula" wrote: > Hi Christine and All, > > I was hoping someone else would respond to this. ;-) > I am not sure that I retain the understanding I had then. Btw, when > K. Sujin gave the reply to my enquiry, only Jon was smart enough to > detect the fact that I had heard only what I wanted to hear. A > lesson which reminded me of the fact that often the Teachings will > be interpreted in a way best suited to our preconceptions. > Jon questioned and reminded me of Howard's oft used concept > of `reification'. > What I now understand about this matter is the following: > > 1. Rupa does have intrinsic qualities of agreeable / disagreeable. > 2. Rupa arises and falls in an instant, lasting only as much as > 17 citta moments. > 3. Vipaka citta being either kusala or akusala is impossible to > know. > 4. Even if it were determined precisely on seeing `pig's dung' that > it is akusala vipaka, and touching it is kusala vipaka, this says > nothing about "pig's dung" in and of itself. As `pig's dung' is > concept only, whereas the rupas of `softness' and `visible object' > are real, but they last only 17 citta moments. Nothing about the > experience should give rise to a general idea about `pig's dung' as > being agreeable or not, through any particular doorway. > As I understand it now, the commentaries mention these examples only > to give a general idea with regard to and compare with our normal > day- to- day perception of mistaking kusala and akusala reactions > for vipaka and for using these to judge the intrinsic worth or not > of `things'. > > In conclusion, there is never a reason to judge the value of > anything beyond a particular moment of rise and fall. And > considering that moments of vipaka fall away long before we know it, > it is useless to even think too much about it, except in terms of > general understanding of the way things are, theoretically. To talk > about things as though they exist objectively out there not only in > the past and in the future, but also in the present, is to reify, > and this goes against the true spirit of studying Abhidhamma, I > think. > > Hope I have not been totally off-track, if Sarah or anyone would > like to correct me, please do. At least, I am certain that others > can add and make this matter more clear. Do you Christine, have > anything to add? > > Metta, > > Sukin. 26645 From: Sarah Date: Wed Nov 5, 2003 2:17am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Pigs eating dung Hi Sukin (& Chrisine), --- Sukinderpal Singh Narula wrote: Sukin:> I was hoping someone else would respond to this. ;-) .... I admit that pigs and dung is not a favourite topic of mine. As I said to Victor, why not lilies instead;-) Btw, I wasn’t following your discussion with Chris on the trip about it, but I don’t think it matters at all who’s right --it’s only mana (conceit) that cares after all-- and how many times we change our tune;-) .... Sukin:>A > lesson which reminded me of the fact that often the Teachings will > be interpreted in a way best suited to our preconceptions. .... This is true and I remember how we discussed another time how we all hear different things, interpret differently and give different summaries of discussions accordingly;-) Accumulations! ..... I think all your comments are very good and clear. In summary, only an omniscient Buddha would know whether the object experienced now through the senses is inherently desirable or not. All we can say is that kusala vipaka experiences desirable/pleasant objects and akusala vipaka experiences undesirable/unpleasant objects. Examples of pig and dung and so on are given as general examples only. Thinking and speculating or trying to further calculate whether the rupa experienced now is desirable or not is won’t help understanding develop. (Chris, I also touched on this topic in one of my earlier Myanmar summaries). I’ll leave you both to continue this discussion now and look for some lilies or more desirable objects;-) Metta, Sarah p.s It reminds me a little of a qu I raised about prompted and unprompted vipaka cittas. It’s true that results of prompted (sasa’nkhaarika) kammas are prompted vipaka cittas and results of unprompted (asa’nkhaarika) kammas are unprompted vipaka cittas, but as it can never be known which kind of vipaka cittas they are, there’s no use speculating about it. ==================== Sukin:> 1. Rupa does have intrinsic qualities of agreeable / disagreeable. > 2. Rupa arises and falls in an instant, lasting only as much as > 17 citta moments. > 3. Vipaka citta being either kusala or akusala is impossible to > know. > 4. Even if it were determined precisely on seeing `pig's dung' that > it is akusala vipaka, and touching it is kusala vipaka, this says > nothing about "pig's dung" in and of itself. As `pig's dung' is > concept only, whereas the rupas of `softness' and `visible object' > are real, but they last only 17 citta moments. Nothing about the > experience should give rise to a general idea about `pig's dung' as > being agreeable or not, through any particular doorway. > As I understand it now, the commentaries mention these examples only > to give a general idea with regard to and compare with our normal > day- to- day perception of mistaking kusala and akusala reactions > for vipaka and for using these to judge the intrinsic worth or not > of `things'. 26646 From: robmoult Date: Wed Nov 5, 2003 2:41am Subject: Re: Pigs eating dung Hi Sukin, Christine, Sarah, Howard and All, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Sukinderpal Singh Narula" wrote: > I was hoping someone else would respond to this. ;-) > I am not sure that I retain the understanding I had then. Btw, when > K. Sujin gave the reply to my enquiry, only Jon was smart enough to > detect the fact that I had heard only what I wanted to hear. A > lesson which reminded me of the fact that often the Teachings will > be interpreted in a way best suited to our preconceptions. > Jon questioned and reminded me of Howard's oft used concept > of `reification'. > What I now understand about this matter is the following: > > 1. Rupa does have intrinsic qualities of agreeable / disagreeable. > 2. Rupa arises and falls in an instant, lasting only as much as > 17 citta moments. > 3. Vipaka citta being either kusala or akusala is impossible to > know. > 4. Even if it were determined precisely on seeing `pig's dung' that > it is akusala vipaka, and touching it is kusala vipaka, this says > nothing about "pig's dung" in and of itself. As `pig's dung' is > concept only, whereas the rupas of `softness' and `visible object' > are real, but they last only 17 citta moments. Nothing about the > experience should give rise to a general idea about `pig's dung' as > being agreeable or not, through any particular doorway. > As I understand it now, the commentaries mention these examples only > to give a general idea with regard to and compare with our normal > day- to- day perception of mistaking kusala and akusala reactions > for vipaka and for using these to judge the intrinsic worth or not > of `things'. > > In conclusion, there is never a reason to judge the value of > anything beyond a particular moment of rise and fall. And > considering that moments of vipaka fall away long before we know it, > it is useless to even think too much about it, except in terms of > general understanding of the way things are, theoretically. To talk > about things as though they exist objectively out there not only in > the past and in the future, but also in the present, is to reify, > and this goes against the true spirit of studying Abhidhamma, I > think. > > Hope I have not been totally off-track, if Sarah or anyone would > like to correct me, please do. At least, I am certain that others > can add and make this matter more clear. Do you Christine, have > anything to add? I guess I have to take responsibility for the way this thread has gone. On October 9th (message 25947), I first raised the question of inherent characteristics of rupa. The following day, I followed up with a lengthy quote from Sammohavinodani (The Dispeller of Delusion) on the subject that included the example of dung-eating pigs (message 25968). There ensued a lively discussion between Howard, Sarah and I on this issue. Sukin, your four points listed above perfectly match my understanding. My understanding is also that if you are attracted to an object that is inherently undesireable, then this is defined as a "perversion of perception" (it words the opposite way as well). Metta, Rob M :-) 26647 From: Sarah Date: Wed Nov 5, 2003 3:24am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: kamma and vipaka Hi RobM, It’s great to read your posts which show your interest in accumulations and conditions - all heping us to understand anatta further;-) Your post to Christine contained so much excellent detail, but as you usual there are a few points I’d like to discuss further;-) --- robmoult wrote: <...> >After so many existences, there are an > uncountable number of past seeds ready to mature at any instant. > Which one matures at this particular instant? There are many other > factors which act as conditions. The 24 conditions of the Patthana > cover mind as a condition for mind, mind as a condition for > mind/matter, mind as a condition for matter, matter as a condition > for mind, concepts/mind/matter as a condition for mind and > mind/matter as a condition for mind/matter. .... Nicely summarised. .... >Please note that the 24 > conditions do not cover matter as a condition for matter; ... I was somewhat puzzled by this before and was sure I must be being dense about something. As I understand, the 24 conditions cover all the ways that realities are conditioned. As we know, rupas are produced by kamma, citta, nutrition and temperature and rupas in a kalapa are a condition for each other. I think Nissaya Paccaya (dependence condition) is significant here. It is by this condition that the 4 great elements (solidity, cohesion, heat and motion) condition each other and condition the derived rupas. eg U Narada p32 under Nissaya Paccaya: “The great primary, hardness, as base, is related to the remaining three great primaries. This is conascence-dependence condition which has the nature of base....” VismX1, 109 discusses how the 4 great elements condition one another etc too. (Also see Nina’s books on Rupas and Conditions). Also by Ahara Paccaya (nutriment condition), nutritive essence (ojaa) sustains the rupas of the body. It’s present in food and is necessary for new rupas to be produced. In fact it’s present in all groups of rupas as one of the 8 ‘inseperable rupas’, both in the body and outside. The external ojaa is an essential support for the ojaa in the rupas in the body to produce new rupas. Also by presence condition (atthi paccaya) physical life faculty is related to kamma produced rupas, always present in these groups.. I’m sure we could find other examples. I’m curious about whether I’ve missed something or where your comment comes from. <...> >The Buddha also made it clear that > the detailed workings of kamma were an "unknowable". ... Good point! <...> > In brief, vipaka is not all of the moments; vipaka is one of the > many conditions which cause what happens to us to arise. Our > reactions and our emotions are not vipaka, they are javana. .... Yes, I think this needs stressing. Usually what we refer to as ‘emotions’ are many, many moments of thinking accompanied by various kilesa (defilements) I think. .... <...> > You were hungry; this is another condition at work that would not be > included in the patthana. .... I think the various rupas experienced through the body-sense (i.e heat, motion, solidity), the thinking about food and hunger, the accompanying mental states, are all included in the conditions which accumulated and brought about various results or conditioned states. ..... > > All of these conditions (vipaka - being at the dinner, natural > decisive support - attracted to red desert jelly, hungry) caused you > to put the stuff in your mouth. There was attachment to taste > followed by a craving to classify the taste. These cravings were > condition for you to ask what it was (speech intimation). > > When the reply came, you organized the sounds into words; you then > passed a judgement on the concept (i.e. yuck!) and mental > proliferation took over. > > You (or others) could easily pick apart my analysis and come up with > another equally plausable explanation; the main message remains the > same - lots of conditions interacting in a complex manner. > > The objective of this analysis is not to determine the specific set > of conditions at work (this is virtually impossible), but to > understand that everything is arising because of conditions, not > because of a "self". .... I think it’s a very helpful summary and example and an excellent conclusion. It reminds me of the description in the sub-commentary to the Satipatthana Sutta (Soma transl p.91) which starts: “Within there is no eater called a self. As stated already, by the diffusion of the process of oscillation born of mental activity, only, there is the receiving of food in the bowl; by the diffusion of the process of oscillation born of mental activity, only, there is the descent of the hand into the bowl;.......” Again it’s not the details that are important but the development of understanding of namas and rupas as not self. I also like your analogy of the ball in the gravel ...... > If habits are nurtured, accumulations and affinities are formed and > this is how we "steer our mental processes". It will happen > automatically and naturally. Assuming that we spend time radiating > metta (or doing some other forms of meditation), every morning, this > will create gullies and will cause us to be happier / more likely to > see things as they truly are. ..... .....I’m just wondering if there’s a little loop-hole or safety-net here, though;-) A whispering wish perhaps......but I think we have to let it be for now. (Also, I have my misgivings about conclusions from the meditation experiments, but that's for another day for sure;-)). Rob, there was so much I really appreciated in your post. Pls take any comments or queeries I raise as an indication of this appreciation for your contributions here and your sincere interest in Abhidhamma. Metta, Sarah ====== p.s Christine reminded me of the on-line PTS dictionary which I usually forget about as it seemed very limited when I first looked at it. More detail and references for karuna can be found here (hope the link works): http://dsal.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/ddsa/getobject_?HTML.a.0:4860./projects/artfl0/databases/dicos/philologic/pali/IMAGE/ 26648 From: Sarah Date: Wed Nov 5, 2003 3:56am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Myanmar4 - decisive support, accumulations, desirable object, kamma Hi Connie (& RobM), Good to see your post and interest in this tricky topic. I'm very grateful to Rob for replying to your post. I think there may have been some confusion: S: > > Anything can be a condition as a result. > > > > C: > > Anything but kiriya can be vipaka? > > ===== Perhaps you took 'as a result' to be referring to vipaka when it really just meant 'therefore';-) I think all Rob's comments and explanations were very clear and useful - I have a few more comments to make on 'balancing' and pakatupanissaya and accumulations, another reply to RobM and maybe on this but I'm out of time for now.... Thanks again for helping and clarifying, Rob. Connie, we'll be very glad if you chip in on these topics more often - thx for the Thai reminders too;-) Metta, Sarah p.s I hope you manage to meet A.Sujin next week - I think it'll just depend whether she's in Bkk or Kaeng Krajan on that day. Keep us posted! ========================== 26649 From: Date: Wed Nov 5, 2003 0:12am Subject: Re: [dsg] Act of consciousness Hi, Larry - In a message dated 11/4/03 9:26:07 PM Eastern Standard Time, LBIDD@w... writes: > Hi Howard, > > I don't exactly follow your reasoning here but I suspect you are edging > into madhyamaka. If so, as you know, there is no response to that. What > can I say? > > Larry > ============================ Funny, I somehow feel that my position is closer to Theravada and yours to Mahayana, or at least a sort of Vedantized Mahayana. Well, at least we each know that Mahayana (whatever that actually is) is BAAAD, right?? ;-)) With naughty, heterodox metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 26650 From: Date: Wed Nov 5, 2003 0:33am Subject: Re: [dsg] Act of consciousness Hi again, Larry - In a message dated 11/5/03 8:15:17 AM Eastern Standard Time, upasaka@a... just wrote: > Hi, Larry - > > In a message dated 11/4/03 9:26:07 PM Eastern Standard Time, LBIDD@w... > > writes: > > >Hi Howard, > > > >I don't exactly follow your reasoning here but I suspect you are edging > >into madhyamaka. If so, as you know, there is no response to that. What > >can I say? > > > >Larry > > > ============================ > Funny, I somehow feel that my position is closer to Theravada and > yours to Mahayana, or at least a sort of Vedantized Mahayana. > > =================================== I just reread your original post to see why I thought you were approving a non-Theravadin position. You, yourself, described it as non-Theravadin. What you had written was the following: > In other, non-Theravada > traditions consciousness is likened to a crystal that takes on the > characteristics of whatever it touches. A crystal on a piece of red > cloth is colored red. In the same way, consciousness OF red is red > consciousness and consciousness WITH anger is angry consciousness. > This way of understanding consciousness makes sense to me and it > seems to make sense out of the 121 kinds of consciousness, which > otherwise are not different kinds of consciousness but different > combinations of cetasikas and rupas. My point was that this non-theravadin position - and truly, the source alone neither makes it good nor bad - likens consciousness not to a stream or sequence of events, but more to an continually present liquid in which other things float through, or a persisting background movie screen on which images play. I see that as a substantialist view with conciousness as "self". As I see it, the liquid is missing, the screen is missing - in Zen terms, if you like, there is no mirror and no mirror-stand, nothing to polish. What we take for the screen is merely superimposed concept. With orthodox, approved metta ;-)), Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 26651 From: Sarah Date: Wed Nov 5, 2003 5:44am Subject: Re: [dsg] Reflections on Wife family, children and cats - To have or not to have Hi Thomas & All, I liked this reminder in one of your posts: --- nordwest wrote: >Family > is nice, and friends, and lovers ... but we come alone, and depart > alone. .... It reminded me that on our recent trip we discussed how it's always 'crowded' when there is no awareness, but when there is awareness, there's no crowd, no self, no people at all. This is the meaning of 'viveka' (detachment, seclusion) and living alone. We can go to a secluded place, but if there's no understanding of realities, there won't be any development of awareness or wisdom. We also discussed how when there's thinking about another 'place' or 'time' or 'lifestyle', it can be like an excuse to delay the understanding of the present moment and there's no awareness at these times. We were reminded to 'develop understanding and (then) you don't have to think much about place and situation'. I look forward to more of your comments. Metta, Sarah p.s Thomas & Molly, would you kindly make it clear who you are addressing in your posts - even if it's 'All'. Everyone, pls remember to trim posts too;-) ================================== 26652 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Nov 5, 2003 10:00am Subject: Re: [dsg] FW: Ignorance I. Dear Sarah, Long ago A. Sujin said to me: the akusala is worse when there is more ignorance. That made me think. We had discussions on the Pali list. I can post my conversation with a Brasilian friend, Michael. Rob K and others also took part . op 04-11-2003 11:13 schreef Sarah op sarahdhhk@y...: >> The king said: "Venerable Nagasena, for whom is the >> greater demerit, one who knowingly does evil, or one >> who does evil unknowingly?? >> The elder replied: "Indeed, great king, for him who >> does evil not knowing is the greater demerit. > I wonder if you or anyone else has > more detail or explanation on this as it tends to recur. Nina quotes: op 01-11-2003 17:45 schreef Michael Beisert op mbeisert@h...: > > On the surface this seems like a very easy question but in fact it is very > complex. ..... the answer to your question is no, someone who has not heard the > Dhamma and commits an akusala deed is in a better position than someone who > knows the Dhamma.... N: It is complex. Let us go to the roots of all akusala. There are three akusala hetus or roots which are the foundation of akusala citta. I do not know the Portuguese word for root, in French it is racine. The three are: lobha (greed) dosa (aversion or hate) and moha (ignorance or delusion). Another word for moha is avijjaa. There are akusala cittas rooted in moha and lobha, rooted in moha and dosa and rooted in moha alone. But all akusala cittas have moha as their root. Dhammapada vs 251: <...there is no net like delusion>, and in the Ch on taints, vs. 243:... We become entangled in ignorance, it is like a net. Ignorance is not knowing realities as they are, not knowing what is kusala, what is akusala, not knowing the four noble Truths. It is like blindness, like darkness. There are different intensities, degrees of the akusala hetus. When the degree of moha is stronger, there is a higher degree of akusala. The akusala hetu that arises together with the citta conditions the accompanying mental factors (cetasikas) and the citta. It motivates different degrees of unwholesome deeds. I could recommend the Wheel, no 251-253, by Ven. Nyanaponika: "the Roots of Good and Evil ". M: we should remember > that the workings of kamma can be very complex and just as a reminder look > at the Lonaphala Sutta (AN III.99). N: Yes, only a Buddha thoroughly penetrates the workings of kamma and result. This sutta is very complex, but does not contradict the fact that more ignorance conditions the akusala to be more intense. Decisive here is leading the holy life. The Buddha teaches here about being in the cycle and going out of the cycle, the commentary states. M: Now the question becomes really complex when you throw in the skilful > means’ so highly praised in the Mahayana tradition. And using a skilful > means interpretation of a certain deed, what apparently would be an akusala > deed could be regarded as kusala. And this really opens the door for any > actions to be interpreted anyway you want and to atribute any kamma > consequences you want. N: Then there is more and more ignorance, as I see it. Metta is always kusala, violence is always akusala. Nobody in the world can change akusala into kusala. Nina. (will be continued) 26653 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Nov 5, 2003 10:00am Subject: FW: Subco to Mahaaraahulovaadasutta, 22B Subco to Mahaaraahulovaadasutta, 22B Subcommentary (by Dhammapaala): Commentary passage relevant to the Subcommentary: idaanissa taadibhaavalakkha.na.m aacikkhanto pathaviisamantiaadimaaha. Now he said, when explaining the characteristic of such nature (of the highest qualification), ³like the earth² and so on. i.t.thaani.t.thesu hi arajjanto adussanto taadii naama hoti. not being attached nor having aversion with regard to the desirable and the undesirable is called ³suchness². Text Subcommentary: 119. taadibhaavo naama ni.t.thitakiccassa hoti, aya~nca vipassana.m anuyu~njati, Someone who has completed the task is called ³of such nature², and he practises insight; atha kimattha.m taadibhaavataa vuttaati? and then, for what purpose was the nature of suchness spoken of? pathaviisamataadilakkha.naacikkha.naahi vipassanaaya sukhappavattiattha.m. The explanation of the characteristic of (development) like the earth and so on has as purpose a happy course of insight. tenaaha ``i.t.thaani.t.thesuu''tiaadi. Therefore he says, ³with regard to the desirable and the undesirable² and so on. gahetvaati kusalappavattiyaa okaasadaanavasena pariggahetvaa. As to the expression, after he has mastered them, this means, after he has thoroughly comprehended them, because of the opportunity that was given for a skilful course of action. **** English: Someone who has completed the task is called ³of such nature², and he practises insight; and then, for what purpose was the nature of suchness spoken of? The explanation of the characteristic of (development) like the earth and so on has as purpose a happy course of insight. Therefore he says, ³with regard to the desirable and the undesirable² and so on. As to the words, after he has mastered them, this means, after he has thoroughly comprehended them, because of the opportunity that was given for a skilful course of action. ******* Nina. 26654 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Nov 5, 2003 10:00am Subject: Re: [dsg] Chiangmai / Pai Dear Azita, What you say here is very important. Where did you go in the North, and were there special groups of people you met? Special temples? I would like to hear more details, also about the discussions. Nina. op 04-11-2003 01:45 schreef gazita2002 op gazita2002@y...: > The arising of r.u. must be as natural as the arising of seeing, > hearing, liking, disliking. It cannot be any other way... The clinging to wanting r.u. is very, very > subtle - I like Tan Achan's 'whispering lobha'. I think the desire > for r.u. can also be very gross. 26655 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Nov 5, 2003 10:00am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Vism. XIV 32, 33 Hi Larry, op 04-11-2003 01:16 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > In a previous discussion you and Rob > explained that consciousness is just pure consciousness. I took this to > mean that there is no difference between consciousness of light or > consciousness of sound or consciousness with ignorance or consciousness > with wisdom as far as the consciousness itself is concerned. Could you > explain again what you mean by pure consciousness or pure awareness? N: This is said only in order to differentiate citta from cetasikas. But cetasikas conditon the citta. Seeing is different from hearing, they have different objects. But citta's task is cognizing an object. L If you don't think the sameness of consciousness accounts for the > impression that the consciousness khandha gives that "a person comes and > goes with the same mind", then how does consciousness give this > impression? N: I do not understand this qu. But when you believe there is the same mind, it is wrong view. And we are under this impression, aren't we? Nina 26656 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Wed Nov 5, 2003 10:53am Subject: [dsg] Re: The paradox of Annatta (not-self) and transmigration Hi Christine, Etymology and meaning of words in and of itself can be interesting; however, regarding the matter of the usage of the word "atta"/"self", my concern is primarily on what the Buddha taught and understanding it as it is. Thank you for providing the definitions of the word "self", which provides many references regarding the word in the discourses. It would be helpful to look into how the word "atta"/"self" is used in the discourses, without getting into construing or delineating what self is. Peace, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Hiya Victor and Nori, [snip] 26657 From: Date: Wed Nov 5, 2003 6:20am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Vism. XIV 32, 33 Hi, Nina & Larry - In a message dated 11/5/03 1:09:41 PM Eastern Standard Time, nilo@e... writes: > > Hi Larry, > op 04-11-2003 01:16 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > > > In a previous discussion you and Rob > >explained that consciousness is just pure consciousness. I took this to > >mean that there is no difference between consciousness of light or > >consciousness of sound or consciousness with ignorance or consciousness > >with wisdom as far as the consciousness itself is concerned. Could you > >explain again what you mean by pure consciousness or pure awareness? > N: This is said only in order to differentiate citta from cetasikas. But > cetasikas conditon the citta. > Seeing is different from hearing, they have different objects. But citta's > task is cognizing an object. > L If you don't think the sameness of consciousness accounts for the > >impression that the consciousness khandha gives that "a person comes and > >goes with the same mind", then how does consciousness give this > >impression? > N: I do not understand this qu. But when you believe there is the same mind, > it is wrong view. And we are under this impression, aren't we? > Nina > =============================== This discussion is exactly the sort of thing that motivates my understanding of a contact as primary and of vi~n~nana, aramanna, and dvara as co-occurring aspects of that event. Seeing is visual contact - it is consciousness of visual object via the eye door. There is no seeing until the co-occurence of consciousness, visual object (as object of that consciousness), and eye-door activation (as medium for that seeing). Seeing is different from hearing because visual object and eye door are different from (heard) sound and ear door. And the consciousness aspect of a seeing is different from the consciousness aspect of a hearing, but only because these conscousnesses do not occur in isolation as independent phenomena but each as an aspect of a contact-event, and thus in relation to that event and to its other two aspects. If these consciousnesses were viewed, each, as independent, primary phenomena, then given their always being nothing but the function of being aware, one could properly say,as Larry does, that they are "the same". But they, in fact, never occur on their own. They only occur as aspects of seeings, hearings, tastings, feelings, or cognizings, all of which are contacts. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 26658 From: christine_forsyth Date: Wed Nov 5, 2003 0:04pm Subject: Re: Pigs eating dung Hello RobM, Sukin, Sarah, RobK and all, RobM - thanks for pointing me to your post http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/25947 and the discussion that followed on. I hadn't read them before - tend to skip some of the more esoteric discussions. Sorry to say I still don't see that any object can be inherently/intrinsically pleasant or unpleasant. Nor that the standard measure should be what any particular species prefers. Is it possible that people are ignoring what they actually experience in daily life, and what they can deduce from it by ordinary commonsense, while trying to force experiences to fit whatever the commentaries say? Anyway - I expect there isn't anymore that can be said - maybe I should just concentrate on the suttas, ordinary language, ordinary stories? metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" wrote: > Hi Sukin, Christine, Sarah, Howard and All, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Sukinderpal Singh Narula" > wrote: > > I was hoping someone else would respond to this. ;-) > > I am not sure that I retain the understanding I had then. Btw, > when > > K. Sujin gave the reply to my enquiry, only Jon was smart enough > to > > detect the fact that I had heard only what I wanted to hear. A > > lesson which reminded me of the fact that often the Teachings will > > be interpreted in a way best suited to our preconceptions. > > Jon questioned and reminded me of Howard's oft used concept > > of `reification'. > > What I now understand about this matter is the following: > > > > 1. Rupa does have intrinsic qualities of agreeable / disagreeable. > > 2. Rupa arises and falls in an instant, lasting only as much as > > 17 citta moments. > > 3. Vipaka citta being either kusala or akusala is impossible to > > know. > > 4. Even if it were determined precisely on seeing `pig's dung' > that > > it is akusala vipaka, and touching it is kusala vipaka, this says > > nothing about "pig's dung" in and of itself. As `pig's dung' is > > concept only, whereas the rupas of `softness' and `visible object' > > are real, but they last only 17 citta moments. Nothing about the > > experience should give rise to a general idea about `pig's dung' > as > > being agreeable or not, through any particular doorway. > > As I understand it now, the commentaries mention these examples > only > > to give a general idea with regard to and compare with our normal > > day- to- day perception of mistaking kusala and akusala reactions > > for vipaka and for using these to judge the intrinsic worth or not > > of `things'. > > > > In conclusion, there is never a reason to judge the value of > > anything beyond a particular moment of rise and fall. And > > considering that moments of vipaka fall away long before we know > it, > > it is useless to even think too much about it, except in terms of > > general understanding of the way things are, theoretically. To > talk > > about things as though they exist objectively out there not only > in > > the past and in the future, but also in the present, is to reify, > > and this goes against the true spirit of studying Abhidhamma, I > > think. > > > > Hope I have not been totally off-track, if Sarah or anyone would > > like to correct me, please do. At least, I am certain that others > > can add and make this matter more clear. Do you Christine, have > > anything to add? > > I guess I have to take responsibility for the way this thread has > gone. On October 9th (message 25947), I first raised the question of > inherent characteristics of rupa. The following day, I followed up > with a lengthy quote from Sammohavinodani (The Dispeller of > Delusion) on the subject that included the example of dung-eating > pigs (message 25968). There ensued a lively discussion between > Howard, Sarah and I on this issue. > > Sukin, your four points listed above perfectly match my > understanding. My understanding is also that if you are attracted to > an object that is inherently undesireable, then this is defined as > a "perversion of perception" (it words the opposite way as well). > > Metta, > Rob M :-) 26659 From: nordwest Date: Wed Nov 5, 2003 9:10am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sarah / Reflections on Wife family, children and cats - Dear Sarah, I think a detached attitude brings also happier families and partnerships. Clinging to partners and loved ones always brings trouble and stress. If we see everyone as a "pleasant guest" in our life, we may also have constantly more respect before them and less feeling of "to possess someone". We are together, and then we have to part again, this is not sad at all. It's just natural like the seasons. What is sad is a human lifetime not used to do good, and to make spiritual progress. Gassho, Thomas Sarah wrote: Hi Thomas & All, I liked this reminder in one of your posts: --- nordwest wrote: >Family > is nice, and friends, and lovers ... but we come alone, and depart > alone. .... 26660 From: Larry Date: Wed Nov 5, 2003 1:50pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Act of consciousness Howard: "What we take for the screen is merely superimposed concept." Hi Howard, This is what I thought was madhyamaka. I wasn't accusing you of advocating a non-Buddhist position, just not leaving me with any possible reply that wasn't _merely_ conceptual. I researched "contact" a little, using Nyanatiloka and his references and CMA, and found that it is both "concurrence" and "impingement". I don't see a problem with that and the crystal simile. Although it is a little difficult for me to see how either aspect of this event can be a cetasika. I would think most or all other kinds of "event" are conceptual. Translating "sense contact" as "sense impression" it is possible to interpret phassa as a kind of image, but I haven't seen anyone interpret it that way. The question is, what happens when consciousness meets object? I haven't read anywhere in Theravada that consciousness is ever transformed. So that would be a strike against the crystal idea. Still, I believe you are on-board with the idea that consciousness is pure. "Pure" sure sounds like "crystal" to me. Do you have any thoughts on the nature of this meeting beyond saying that it is a meeting? Larry 26661 From: robmoult Date: Wed Nov 5, 2003 2:22pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Myanmar4 - decisive support, accumulations, desirable object, kamma Hi Sarah, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > p.s I hope you manage to meet A.Sujin next week - I think it'll just > depend whether she's in Bkk or Kaeng Krajan on that day. Keep us posted! > ========================== Ahh, its just accumulations (my desire to meet her) and conditions (A. Sujin's schedule) at work again! :-) Metta, Rob M :-) 26662 From: Larry Date: Wed Nov 5, 2003 2:18pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Vism. XIV 32, 33 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: >> L If you don't think the sameness of consciousness accounts for the > > impression that the consciousness khandha gives that "a person comes and > > goes with the same mind", then how does consciousness give this > > impression? > N: I do not understand this qu. But when you believe there is the same mind, > it is wrong view. And we are under this impression, aren't we? > Nina Hi Nina, Here's the commentary: Spk: Consciousness is like a magical illusion (maayaa) in the sense that it is insubstantial and cannot be grasped. Consciousness is even more transient and fleeting than a magical illusion. For it gives the impression that a person comes and goes, stands and sits, with the same mind, but the mind is different in each of these activities. Consciousness deceives the multitude like a magical illusion. Larry: How does consciousness give the impression that "a person comes and goes, stands and sits, with the same mind"? I proposed that it was because of the fundamental sameness of consciousness, but perhaps this isn't right. I agree there are problems with this. What is your idea? Larry 26663 From: robmoult Date: Wed Nov 5, 2003 2:14pm Subject: [dsg] Re: kamma and vipaka Hi Sarah, I was wrong. The Abhidhammatthasangaha groups the 24 conditions as mind as a condition for mind, mind as a condition for mind/matter, mind as a condition for matter, matter as a condition for mind, concepts/mind/matter as a condition for mind and mind/matter as a condition for mind/matter. I noted that there was no grouping for matter as a condition for matter. If I had studied the actual conditions carefully, I would have noticed that there are some cases of matter acting as a condition for matter included. > > As I understand, the 24 conditions cover all the ways that realities are > conditioned. Is the list truly exhasutive? Do the 24 conditions really cover ALL of the ways that realities are conditioned? Metta, Rob M :-) 26664 From: robmoult Date: Wed Nov 5, 2003 2:47pm Subject: Re: Pigs eating dung Hi Christine, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Sorry to say I > still don't see that any object can be inherently/intrinsically > pleasant or unpleasant. Nor that the standard measure should be what > any particular species prefers. Is it possible that people are > ignoring what they actually experience in daily life, and what they > can deduce from it by ordinary commonsense, while trying to force > experiences to fit whatever the commentaries say? > Anyway - I expect there isn't anymore that can be said - maybe I > should just concentrate on the suttas, ordinary language, ordinary > stories? I had been wrestling with this issue (intrinsic quality of rupa) in the back the back of my mind for a couple of years. For me, the breakthrough came when my engineering mind analyzed the sense door citta process. In this citta process, after the sense- door adverting citta, there will arise a set of three cittas (sense- door consciousness, receiving, investigating). These three cittas can be either "kusala vipaka" or "akusala vipaka". The question arises, "what is the condition that would cause kusala vipaka to arise rather than akusala vipaka?" I realized that it must be the inherent quality of the rupa that determines which path is taken. This was my aha! moment. I read further that there were actually three classifications of rupa; undesireable, desireable and extremely desireable. I then noticed that there were three types of investigating citta; akusala, kusala with neutral feeling and kusala with pleasant feeling. I thought to myself, "By George, I think he's got it!" and I paraded around like a puffed-up peacock. I then realized that this was a somewhat obscure point in the Abhidhamma that had virtually no impact on correct practice or right thought (that brought me back down to earth). I hope that this helps. If you still have problems with this issue, I don't think that you should have any qualms about filing it under "I will sort that out later, perhaps in my next life." I certainly don't recommending ruminating on it for a couple of years as I did. Metta, Rob M :-) 26665 From: Date: Wed Nov 5, 2003 5:00pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Act of consciousness Hi, Larry - In a message dated 11/5/2003 4:50:27 PM Eastern Standard Time, LBIDD@w... writes: > The question is, what happens when consciousness meets object? I > haven't read anywhere in Theravada that consciousness is ever > transformed. So that would be a strike against the crystal idea. ---------------------------- Howard: There is no consciousness to *be* transformed. A consciousness, a sense-door activation, and the object of that consciousness via that sense door all arise at the very same time. And that occasion is the occasion of so-called contact. They co-arise, constituting the event that is contact. --------------------------- > Still, I believe you are on-board with the idea that consciousness is > pure. "Pure" sure sounds like "crystal" to me. Do you have any > thoughts on the nature of this meeting beyond saying that > it is a > meeting? ---------------------------- Howard: I think that the terminology of "meeting" or "coming together", while perfectly good ordinary usage, and used by the Buddha, is misleading. None of the three exists prior to the moment of contact. As far as consciousness being "pure", that can have several quite different meanings. One of these is that consciousness is not intrinsically defiled. Defilements accompanying consciousness are adventitious. This is a sense of consciousness being pure that I am on-board with. Another meaning is that consciousness per se is nothing more than the awareness aspect of any experience, as opposed to the content of that experience (the object) and the sense door activated (the medium). That's fine too. Other possible meanings may suggest consciousness as not being a function or event or aspect of an event, but of being some sort of substance which, from the Dhammic perspective, is erroneous. BTW, I think we can go overboard in our attempts at precision in our definitions and categorizations. For example, where does contact fit in? Abhidhamma says it is a cetasika, which makes it just a concomitant to vi~n~nana. In the five-aggregate approach of the suttas, the only place to fit it in would be as a sankhara, which would agree with the cetasika characterization. But, it seems to fit in the 18-fold scheme of sense object, sense door, sense consciousness scheme, with each triple being a contact event. Or does it not fit into this last scheme at all? Problems, eh? But why should we care? To me, what is most important is the tilakkhana, and the means to realize them. With metta, Howard 26666 From: Date: Wed Nov 5, 2003 5:57pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism. XIV 34, 35, 36 35. Herein (a) "primary materiality" is of four kinds as the earth element, water element, fire element, and air element. Their characteristic, function, and manifestation have been given under the definition of the four elements (Ch. XI, 87, 93); but as to the proximate cause, each has the other three as its proximate cause. [444] ---------------------------- Ch. XI 87. 1. Herein, one who gives his attention to them [elements] "as to word meaning" should do so separetly and generally thus: [separately] it is earth (pathavii) because it is spread out (pattha.ta); it flows (appoti) or it glides (aapiyati) or it satisfies (appaayati), thus it is water (aapo); it heats (tejati), thus it is fire (tejo); it blows (vaayati), thus it is air vaayo). But without differentiation they are elements (dhaatu) beacuse of bearing (dhaara.na) their own characteristics, because of grasping (aadaana) suffering, and because of sorting out (aadhaana) suffering (see Ch. XV, 19). (29) This is how they should be given attention as to word meaning. (29) ' "Because of bearing their own characteristics": these are not like the Primordial Elements (pakati--Skr. prakrti) and the self (attaa) imagined by the theorists, which are non-existent as to individual essence. On the contrary these do bear their own characteristics, which is why they are elements' (pm. 359). Capitals have been used here and elsewhere though Indian alphabets do not justify it. "Appaayati" 'to satisfy' is not in P.T.S. Dict.; see VbhA.p. Ch. XI 93. 4. "As to characteristic", etc.: he should advert to the four elements in this way: 'The earth element--what are its characteristic, function, manifestation?, [defining them in this way]: The earth element has the characteristic of hardness. Its function is to act as a foundation. It is manifested as receiving. The water element has the characteristic of trickling. Its function is to intensify. It is manifested as holding together. The fire element has the characteristic of heat. Its function is to mature (maintain). It is manifested as a continued supply of softnss. The air element has the characteristic of distending. Its fuction is to cause motion. It is manifested as conveying. (37) This is how they should be given attention by characteristic, and so on. [366] (37) "Abhiniihara"--'conveying': not in this sense in P.T.S. Dict. ' "Conveying" is acting as cause for the successive arising at adjacent locations (desantaruppatti) of the conglomeration of elements (bhuuta-sa.nghaata)' (Pm.363). Elsewhere Pm. (p.359) says of the air element: ' "It blows" (par.87): it is stirred; the meaning is that the conglomeration of elements is made to move (go) by its action as cause for successive arising at adjacent locations (points)', and 'Propelling (samabbhaahana) is the act of causing the successive arising at adjacent locations of material groups (ruupa-kalaapa)' (p.362). 26667 From: Date: Wed Nov 5, 2003 2:37pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: kamma and vipaka Hi, Rob (and Sarah) - In a message dated 11/5/03 5:52:38 PM Eastern Standard Time, rob.moult@j... writes: > Hi Sarah, > > I was wrong. > > The Abhidhammatthasangaha groups the 24 conditions as mind as a > condition for mind, mind as a condition for mind/matter, mind as a > condition for matter, matter as a condition for mind, > concepts/mind/matter as a condition for mind and mind/matter as a > condition for mind/matter. > > I noted that there was no grouping for matter as a condition for > matter. If I had studied the actual conditions carefully, I would > have noticed that there are some cases of matter acting as a > condition for matter included. > > > > >As I understand, the 24 conditions cover all the ways that > realities are > >conditioned. > > Is the list truly exhasutive? Do the 24 conditions really cover ALL > of the ways that realities are conditioned? > > Metta, > Rob M :-) > > > ============================= And what if the Abhidhamma *didn't* give "matter" as a condition for "matter"? Don't you know directly for yourself that motion, a rupa, can be a condition (via friction) for heat, a rupa, and can be a condition (via evaporation) for coolness, a rupa? Which would you choose: what you know for yourself to be true, or what is said to be true in some book? (If you answer that some people know for themselves that there is a self, I would answer that they only think they know it, but do not know it. ;-) With metta, and annoying questions! ;-)), Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 26668 From: Date: Wed Nov 5, 2003 8:17pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Act of consciousness Howard: "To me, what is most important is the tilakkhana, and the means to realize them." Hi Howard, I agree. FYI, here is Nyanatiloka's definition of phassa: phassa (fr. phusati, to touch): 'sense-impression', contact. The term samphassa is used in compounds, e.g. in the following: '"T'here are 6 classes of sense-impression: visual impression (cakkhu-samphassa), impressions of hearing, smelling, tasting, bodily (tactile) impression and mental impression" (M. 9). A twofold division occurs in D. 15: patigha (q.v.) -samphassa, impression by sensorial reaction', and adhivacana-samphassa, verbal (or conceptual, i.e. mental) impression'. Phassa does not signify physical impact, but is one of the 7 constant mental concomitants of consciousness (cetasika) and belongs to the group of mental formations (sankhára-kkhandha). In lists of both these categories it is generally mentioned first (e.g. Dhs. 1: M. 9), due to its fundamental position in the cognitive process In M. 18 it is thus defined: "Dependent on the eye and the forms, eye-consciousness arises; the coming-together of the three is sense-impression" (similarly stated in the case of the other 5 senses, including mind). In the dependent origination, it is conditioned by the six sense-bases and is a conditioning factor of feeling (s. paticca-samuppáda 5, 6). Its relation to mind-and-body (náma-rúpa) is described in D. 15, and its influence on feeling and wrong views, in D. 1 (at the end). - It is one of the 4 nutriments (áhára, q.v.), and the first factor in the pentad of sense-impression (phassa-pañcamaka), together with feeling, perception, volition and consciousness (see Abh. St., p. 47ff ). Being a key function in the mind's contact with the world of objects and being a potential source of defilements, sense-impression is an important subject for reflective insight contemplation as succinctly formulated in many verses of the Sn.: 736/7, 778, 851, 870/72, 923. http://www.saigon.com/~anson/ebud/bud-dict/dic_idx.htm Larry 26669 From: Date: Wed Nov 5, 2003 8:41pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Vism. XIV 32, 33 Hi again Nina, I think I have a better idea than the one I had before re: Spk: Consciousness is like a magical illusion (maayaa) in the sense that it is insubstantial and cannot be grasped. Consciousness is even more transient and fleeting than a magical illusion. For it gives the impression that a person comes and goes, stands and sits, with the same mind, but the mind is different in each of these activities. Consciousness deceives the multitude like a magical illusion. L: Many of any kind of phenomena close together seem like one even if the phenomena are vastly different. In the case of consciousness, multitudes of moments of consciousness arise one after another and give the impression that "a person comes and goes, stands and sits with the same mind". The impression of "the same mind" is due to the extreme proximity of many moments of consciousness even though the moments are different and very "fleeting". Better? Larry 26670 From: Date: Wed Nov 5, 2003 8:55pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: kamma and vipaka Rob: "I noted that there was no grouping for matter as a condition for matter. If I had studied the actual conditions carefully, I would have noticed that there are some cases of matter acting as a condition for matter included." Hi Rob, Is the air element considered to be a condition for the arising of rupa in "movement"? Vism. XI 93, note 37: "Elsewhere Pm. (p.359) says of the air element: ' "It blows" (par.87): it is stirred; the meaning is that the conglomeration of elements is made to move (go) by its action as cause for successive arising at adjacent locations (points)', and 'Propelling (samabbhaahana) is the act of causing the successive arising at adjacent locations of material groups (ruupa-kalaapa)' (p.362)." Larry 26671 From: robmoult Date: Wed Nov 5, 2003 9:29pm Subject: [dsg] Re: kamma and vipaka Hi Howard (and Sarah); --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Rob (and Sarah) - > > In a message dated 11/5/03 5:52:38 PM Eastern Standard Time, > rob.moult@j... writes: > > > Hi Sarah, > > > > I was wrong. > > > > The Abhidhammatthasangaha groups the 24 conditions as mind as a > > condition for mind, mind as a condition for mind/matter, mind as a > > condition for matter, matter as a condition for mind, > > concepts/mind/matter as a condition for mind and mind/matter as a > > condition for mind/matter. > > > > I noted that there was no grouping for matter as a condition for > > matter. If I had studied the actual conditions carefully, I would > > have noticed that there are some cases of matter acting as a > > condition for matter included. > > > > > > > >As I understand, the 24 conditions cover all the ways that > > realities are > > >conditioned. > > > > Is the list truly exhasutive? Do the 24 conditions really cover ALL > > of the ways that realities are conditioned? > > > > Metta, > > Rob M :-) > > > > > > > ============================= > And what if the Abhidhamma *didn't* give "matter" as a condition for > "matter"? Don't you know directly for yourself that motion, a rupa, can be a > condition (via friction) for heat, a rupa, and can be a condition (via > evaporation) for coolness, a rupa? Which would you choose: what you know for yourself > to be true, or what is said to be true in some book? (If you answer that some > people know for themselves that there is a self, I would answer that they only > think they know it, but do not know it. ;-) > This is the crux of my question. I believe that there are many conditions that are not covered by the Patthana. Gravity, friction, electricity, magnetism, nuclear to name a few. I believe that these are not included in the Abhidhamma because they are "not conducive to the holy life, nor do they lead to unbinding (Nibbana)." In other words, they are outside the Buddha's stated scope of interest. These "unlisted conditions" focus on matter as a condition for matter and form the basis for science (physics, chemistry, biology, etc.). These "unlisted conditions" do impact what happens to us (not just vipaka and accumulations). For this reason, trying to analyze in detail the reasons behind what happens to us is futile. What is important is that we recognize that everything arises because of natural conditions; no unseen hand of God or "working of self" behind what happens to us. I am particularly interested in Sarah's understanding that the list of 24 conditions in the Patthana is exhaustive. If she finds a supporting quote in the texts, I will have an issue. Metta, Rob M :-) 26672 From: robmoult Date: Wed Nov 5, 2003 9:31pm Subject: [dsg] Re: kamma and vipaka Hi Larry, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@w... wrote: > Is the air element considered to be a condition for the arising of rupa > in "movement"? > > Vism. XI 93, note 37: "Elsewhere Pm. (p.359) says of the air element: ' > "It blows" (par.87): it is stirred; the meaning is that the > conglomeration of elements is made to move (go) by its action as cause > for successive arising at adjacent locations (points)', and 'Propelling > (samabbhaahana) is the act of causing the successive arising at adjacent > locations of material groups (ruupa-kalaapa)' (p.362)." It is my understanding that the air element is another name for motion or pressure; air element / motion / pressure are the same rupa. Sorry for the short reply, gotta return to a boring meeting. Metta, Rob M :-) 26673 From: Sarah Date: Wed Nov 5, 2003 10:20pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Pigs eating dung Hi Christine, Just a little more to add to RobM’s points on your common-sense comments: --- christine_forsyth wrote: Sorry to say I > still don't see that any object can be inherently/intrinsically > pleasant or unpleasant. .... Remember as Sukin pointed out, we’re talking about realities as usual;-) To give a simpler example, common-sense tells us that if we’re knocked on the head, what is experienced through the body-sense is quite different from when we’re given a gentle massage. As a generalisation, we might say that when knocked, the vipaka cittas experience ‘unpleasant objects’ and when given a gentle massage, ‘pleasant objects’. These are just examples to show that the rupas experienced are not the same at each moment and that some are inherently pleasant/desirable and others are definitely not. If it weren’t so, then the pleasant or desirable ones would not be followed by attachment and the unpleasant or ‘painful’ ones by aversion, but common-sense tells us they usually are. For a masochist, there may be attachment to the unpleasant and so on.....no fixed rule and I’ll leave aside the dogs and pigs for now - again different vipaka and other cittas experiencing different objects, no dogs or pigs in an ultimate sense;-) Many conditions are involved. Whether pleasant or unpleasant rupas are experienced at the times of the knock or massage again depends on many factors, especially the kamma which conditions the vipaka cittas. ..... >Nor that the standard measure should be what > any particular species prefers. .... In truth, there are only moments of sense-door vipaka cittas experiencing rupas, followed by other cittas experiencing the same rupas and later mind-door cittas experiencing concepts about the rupas perhaps. Preferences vary a lot as you say. The taste of ‘jelly’ or a chilli varies from moment to moment and for one set of vipaka cittas to another. We can still give examples of say, ice-cream being a pleasant taste, even though it’s not for many and we cannot pin-point particular moments. Awareness can be aware of the tasting or the sweet taste or the softness or cold, for example, but as soon as there’s an idea of ‘desirable’, it’s thinking about the experience. ..... >Is it possible that people are > ignoring what they actually experience in daily life, and what they > can deduce from it by ordinary commonsense, while trying to force > experiences to fit whatever the commentaries say? ..... The point of looking and considering the texts carefully is that so often we are misled by ignorance and wrong views. For example, we may think we tasted something bad or experienced someting distressing at work or that the food or other people were the cause of that distress. When we begin to understand that there’s no self, that the vipaka citta which sees or hears an object (pleasant or unpleasant) lasts for an instant and then is followed by a string of other cittas in the sense-door process and then many further strings in the mind-door process, we begin to see that the problem is not the seeing or hearing or tasting of an object, but the thinking about it, the importance attached to feelings and sense objects and the accumulated defilements. Without understanding a little more about sense and mind-door processes, it’s impossible, I think, to understand the meaning of guarding the senses and to appreciate the importance of being aware of seeing and visible object and so on. ..... > Anyway - I expect there isn't anymore that can be said - maybe I > should just concentrate on the suttas, ordinary language, ordinary > stories? ...... But what about the understanding when we read the suttas and ordinary stories? Aren’t we inclined to take the people and animals for really being people and animals? RobM mentioned perversion of sanna (sanna vipallasa) when there is attachment to the undesirable and aversion to the desirable. Even when there is attachment to the desirable and aversion to the undesirable (in fact at any unwholesoment moment) there is perversion of sanna and citta - taking what is unsatisfactory for satisfactory, foul for beautiful, impermanent for permanent or non-self for self. Look forward to any further comments. (I hope Sukin hasn't run away;-)) As James would say, if you don't agree, that's OK too. Metta, Sarah ===== 26674 From: Sarah Date: Wed Nov 5, 2003 11:37pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Myanmar5: Equalizing/Balancing/Coupling of Faculties Hi RobM, Thank you for your further helpful comments on this thread which links up nicely with the one on accumulations as you point out. --- robmoult wrote: > > Perhaps the answer links back to the Myanmar4 post, accumulations. > > Every time we do something, it strengthens an accumulation and this > accumulation (together with other accumulations) automatically > directs and controls the mental flow. For example, if one tends to > have many, many moments that are strong in saddha, then this will > create a very strong accumulation towards faith. If there are very > few other moments that are strong in panna, then the accumulation > towards panna will be weak. When such a person (strong saddha > accumulation, weak panna accumulation) faces a situation, the strong > saddha accumulation may "highjack" the mental process and lead it > toward an approach described at a macro-level as "blind faith". ... Well put and I agree that it all comes back to accumulations and pakatupanissaya-paccaya. I mentioned in a post yesterday that there was a discussion on place and time and situation. Of course it’s not self that changes place or job or increases faith, but it’s this condition which leads to certain thoughts and deeds. this is why understanding is so important. ..... > Of course, every kusala citta includes the cetasika saddha. However, > this does not imply that every kusala action has an equal impact on > the accumulation of saddha. Moments that are "strong in saddha" > (deepen the accumulation of saddha) are separate from the moments > that are "strong in panna" (deepen the accumulation of panna). My > interpretation of the texts on Equalizing/Balancing/Coupling of > Faculties is that one must have a balanced approach to developing > accumulations so that the response to all situations is balanced. .... Balanced by the development of satipatthana as I understand and understanding of realities - no need for any idea of ‘one must have a balanced approach’, otherwise self slips in again, I think with an idea of ‘making it balanced’. Of course when we’re talking about the beginning of the development of understanding, it’s not like when stages of insight are reached and a strong level of samatha and vipassana cannot be separated, but are ‘coupled’. .... > At the micro (citta) level, we have the cetasika tatramajjhattata > (literally "remaining here and there in the middle"), which arises > in every kusala citta. This is the balance of citta and cetasikas. > Tatramajjhattata allows an object to be viewed with impartiality. It > affects the balance of the citta and the cetasikas it arises > together with, so that there is neither deficiency nor excess of any > one among them. > > At the macro (accumulations) level, we have the need to balance > accumulations; I gave the example of the need to balance the > spiritual faculties, but as explained by Nyanaponika, accumulations > of the brahmaviharas also need to be balanced. ..... But ‘who’ has the need to balance or tries to balance? I’d rather say that as satipatthana develops, the faculties are balanced already by pakatupanissaya and other conditions. I’m not aware of any references in the texts of a need to balance the brahmaviharas, but I’m happy to be shown any. In any case, no self to balance, just the development of various wholesome states according to conditions and understanding of their characteristics and value. ..... > Sarah, I tend to see accumulations as central to many aspects of the > Dhamma and I continue to be nervous that this subject does not > appear to be given prominence in the texts. > > Comments? .... I think your reflections are very much on the right track (ie. very close to what we’ve been hearing and considering;-)). I think we could take almost any sutta and look at it from the point of view of accumulations and complex conditions. In the Mahagosinga Sutta (MN 32) discussed a few times here, we read about the very varied accumulations of some of the Buddha’s chief disciples - Sariputa, Mogallana, MahaKassapa and Anuruddha. In the Jatakas and other texts like the Buddhavamsa, we read about tendencies and deeds performed over aeons and under previous Buddhas, without which they would not be chief disciples with their particular inclinations, psychic powers and Patisambhidas as arahants at this time. We read in various texts about the conditions for wisdom to accumulate, the necessary stages for it to reach these levels and so on, again by conditions, esp. natural decisive support. As another example, I wrote before about Punna and Isidatta (AN Bk of 6s) who had reached the same level but lived vary different lifestyles - one a seemingly restrained lifestyle, but not the other. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/24387 I wrote: >When Ananda repeats the conversation to the Buddha, the Buddha explains their different characters, their different strengths and weaknesses to show that ‘herein Isidatta fares not Purana’s way but another’s.’ He also urges Ananda not to be a ‘measurer of persons; measure not the measure of persons; verily, Ananda, he digs a pit for himnself who measures the measure of persons. I alone, Ananda, can measure their measure - or one like me.’< ***** The more we understand about natural decisive support and other conditions, the more we can appreciate when we read any suttas that they are a description of facts and detailed conditioned realities from past and present causes - no selves, no beings at all. RobM, I may be missing the point of your question, in which case, please explain more and perhaps Nina, RobertK or others may have further comments. Metta, Sarah ====== 26675 From: Sukinderpal Singh Narula Date: Wed Nov 5, 2003 11:56pm Subject: Re: Pigs eating dung Hi Christine, (Rob M, Sarah and All,) I really liked Rob's reply to your other post and I think that it would have changed your perspective a little if not much. But in case you need to hear more and hopefully I don't end up confusing further, I would like to say a little. > 1) I disagree. The taste and smell of pig dung would most likely be > unpleasant to a human (depending on how 'fresh' it was, I rather like > the smell of composted cow manure :-)) - but it may not be unpleasant > to the pig, most dung beetles would find it appetising, that goes for > earth-worms too, and my dog Rusty would find it a extremely > attractive body lotion and afternoon tea snack. Not > inherently/intrinsically unpleasant - depends on species and > perception. If objects are inherently pleasant or unpleasant, this > should be able to be known. Firstly, you need to clearly distinguish concept from reality, in this case `pig dung', and `man', `pig' and `beetle' from `visible object', `smell', `taste', `tangible object' and `seeing', `tasting', `smelling' and `touch'. When you are clear about this distinction, you will not confuse `pig dung' with what is seen, smelt, tasted and touched. So when I say that Rupas have `intrinsic' quality being either pleasant or unpleasant, it is these smells, colour, taste, heat/cold, hard/soft which have them, *not* `pigs dung'. And these Rupas are that which rise and fall in an instant, and not the concept of pig's dung. When this is clear then you can apply Rob's explanation and see that one instant of experiencing smell, or touch or taste will not necessarily be the same, in terms of being either pleasant or unpleasant, as another moment of experience, even when conventionally, the same `thing' is experienced. Pig's dung may be an extreme example, but let's say, seeing a brightly colored rope against an appropriate background (never mind about whether what would actually be the case in reality in terms of mind moments, but take it just for illustration), this will be not unpleasant. But say this rope is seen in the dark from a particular angle and distance that it would look intimidating (even before one `thinks' that it may be a snake), this would be unpleasant. One is kusala vipaka and the other is akusala vipaka and this too in relation to what we conceptually view as the `same person'. In other words even if one smelt some `thing' twice, first time may be pleasant, the second may be unpleasant. And this is to a large extent dependent on which kamma bears fruit. From another point of view consider, that rebirth as a dung-beetle is a result of akusala kamma. This means that kamma is constantly conditioning akusala vipaka, do you think that the taste of the dung in this case be pleasant based on vipaka? Or would that be the result of `perversion of citta'? Yet I do believe that there can be moments of kusala vipaka even for the beetle, but this I think would be very rare compared. > Couldn't we make ANY statement, and add the rider that even though it > is true (the bible told me so?) it is impossible to know, ascertain > or prove one way or the other? Just take it on blind faith. I don't think the Buddha would ever encourage blind faith, so we should be careful. As you know Saddha is more `confidence' than faith as it is generally understood. Saddha increases in direct proportion to understanding. And this understanding starts with pariyatti and increases with every experience of patipatti and finally culminates with pativedha. If the above appeals intellectually, then there is no need to have blind faith. > 2) I don't really know, but it is a refinement of what I understand, > and I'm prepared to accept it. > 3) I don't understand. Why is it so? Who/what decides? Re: To knowing vipaka to be either kusala or akusala. Because only fully developed panna can know this. Even if one has had many moments of satipatthana, to know kusala from akusala in the javana is still close to impossible. And it is after this that one is able to differentiate nama from rupa and then to see the tilakkhana, which means that one is already enlightened. But even at this point, knowing kusala and akusala `vipaka' directly is still a long way to go. > 4) I don't understand - in which case, how can anything be > inherently/intrinsically pleasant or unpleasant. Maybe I should put it this way, visible object for example, is either pleasant or unpleasant as when and if it arises depending on the kamma which has conditioned the vipaka citta. This pleasantness/unpleasantness falls away with the rupa falling away, which is equal to 17 citta moments. That this visible object is conditioned by a rupa out there which we conventionally identify as say `lily', says nothing about that `lily' being inherently pleasant or not. Actually this is what we would do when we reify from the experience through the sense door, first positing a `thing' out there and then this thing as having an `inherent' quality of being pleasant. And then when we consider say, that some being `hates' the sight of it, we have doubt and throw the baby out with the water bath, concluding that there is *no* inherent pleasantness/unpleasantness in the rupa, but that this is purely subjective. But this is because we are still thinking in terms of things out there which lasts, and not as `Rupas' arising and falling in an instant. > Am I winning or losing yet? Can't really say, since I don't even know where I stand. ;-) I have a feeling that I may be adding to the confusion….?! Metta, Sukin Ps: I just saw that Sarah has written a long response, but I'll send this off any way. 26676 From: Sarah Date: Thu Nov 6, 2003 0:00am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: re: guarding the senses Hi James, Christine & All, --- buddhatrue wrote: > James: Could be, actually I am seriously considering moving to > Thailand to teach after a year here in Cairo. A year in Cairo is > probably enough for anyone! ;-). Taiwan is a strong possibility > also. Either way I could easily travel to Bangkok and Hong Kong. I > am finding that traveling anywhere other than the Middle East from > Cairo is problematic and expensive. Don't count on me coming to Hong > Kong this year. From what I am reading, it sounds like your get- > togethers in Bangkok are a real hoot! I may not agree with > everything you discuss, but I like a good adventure! ;-) ..... Keep us posted! As for great adventures, you or others might like to consider joining a planned trip with A.Sujin and several bus-loads around the holy places and a few sight-seeing and shopping diversions in India sometime next year - maybe Oct. The first part of the adventure is getting your name down on ‘The List’ now before any details are available;-) I’m sure Nina will be going and I know a few others are planning to. We haven’t even discussed it - if a number of DSGers were going it would add interest for me for sure;-) However, I should say that tolerance for lots of Thai and lots of Pali words in English discussions (even if none of it is understood) would be pretty essential, I think. Do you have any comments, Christine or Azita? Metta, Sarah p.s Chris - I think it’s the weekend of Jan 30th -Feb 1st that some of us hope to be meeting with Nina in Bkk. ====== 26677 From: Sarah Date: Thu Nov 6, 2003 0:09am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Reflections on Wife family, children and cats - To have or not to have Hi Nori (& RobM), I thought Rob's post was very helpful with a good conclusion: --- robmoult wrote: > It depends on accumulations and conditions. Perhaps you will meet > the right life partner and this will be a condition for you to > marry. Perhaps you will not meet a life partner and should remain > single. Single, married, monk or layperson, what is important is > that you study and apply the Dhamma. ..... We see that all threads lead in the same direction;-) Nori, many thanks indeed for putting your 'accumulations' in the member photo album too. Hope others follow this good example of yours and Derek's recently. Metta, Sarah ===== 26678 From: Sarah Date: Thu Nov 6, 2003 0:39am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Myanmar4 - decisive support, accumulations, desirable object, kamma Hi Connie, As I mentioned, I think you may have misunderstood sth I didn’t write clearly but in any case I was grateful for all your reminders and comments on vipaka condition and for RobM’s detailed and instructive reply. I was just considering your last qu: --- connie wrote: > Hi Sarah and All, > C: > Do you think all three kinds of upanissaya (decisive support or strong > dependence)-paccaya are/function 'by way of accumulations'? (The 3 being > decisive support of: object - arammanupanissaya, proximity - > anantarupanissaya and natural condition - pakutapanissaya). ..... Like RobM said, I think ‘accumulations’ only refers to the third, but in a way anything is included in it. For example, in decisive support of object, a desirable object is a strong condition for cittas and cetasikas which are inclined towards it. So, for example, inherently desirable rupas, such as particular tastes, may be a ‘decisive support object’ for attachment, but only if attachment is accumulated to want such tastes. I think this is why K.Sujin talks about everything being included in pakatupanissaya, even though different conditions act in different ways. I’m about to say more than I understand. Nina, may be able to add more on this too. If I say more, I’ll just be parrotting from her book on ‘Conditions’, ch 7. I’d be glad if you added any more reflections too - you’ve obviously considered these conditions carefully. http://www.zolag.co.uk/ ..... I've always > thought of accumulations as mental, but can't we also say it's the case > that with something like aging (mii-pokati charoen!), we're talking > about accumulated (effects of the) fire element... > Khanda (nama and rupa) = aggregate = accumulations. .... I think as RobM said, by pakatupanissaya, anything can be an accumulated condition, but it refers to the cittas and cetasikas conditioned. ..... > I hope, btw, that the fires in your limbs are subsiding and you're > experiencing more of the air element, with wise attention, of course. .... Thanks, Connie. All my troublesome limbs are doing really well - enough air element to walk pretty well now and even beginnng to tackle steps. Lots of swimming has made the difference - maybe cooling the fires;-) Metta, Sarah p.s How’s the work on Kom’s Pali glossary going? Let us know off-list if you need any help. =============================== 26679 From: Sarah Date: Thu Nov 6, 2003 1:33am Subject: More Myanmar stories;-) Hi Suan, --- abhidhammika wrote: > > So I am looking forward to hearing more news trickling down from the > visitors to Myanmar like you and others. ...... It’s a long time not to visit your home country and I hope you can visit back sometime soon, even if fairly briefly and get citizenship later. Nina and another friend asked me to add anything more as well. Perhaps others can keep adding their impressions too. Honestly, Suan, we were only in Myanmar for 4nts, 5days, but I felt we saw a lot. It reminded some of us a lot of Sri Lanka or some thought of Thailand 30 years or so ago. Like Sri Lanka, it has remained very undeveloped and poor while neighbouring countries like Thailand have developed rapidly. But a lot of the beautiful landscapes and stupas can be seen and appreciated in Myanmar as a result of the lack of development on the horizon. Nowhere was crowded, everyone was friendly and it seemed very peaceful everywhere. The first early morning, four of us went up Mandalay hill to the stupa on top and we were the only people there. Later as the group sat under the beautiful and very old tree at Kuthodaw (where the Fifth council covened and carved the Tipitaka onto the marble slabs), to have a dhamma talk, no one disturbed us at all. At Bagan (Pagan), at the Mingkala Stupa, we looked onto the quiet and beautiful Irrawaddy river. I’ve always wanted to travel down it in a slow boat, but somehow as a little understanding of dhamma develops, these other ‘accumulted’ wants become less and less significant. We were there to watch the sunset, but a few of us started a discussion with A.Sujin and after a few moments I’d forgotten entirely about the sunset, the Irrawaddy and Bagan. A.Sujin was talking about how dark citta is - as dark as the first citta of life (patisambhida citta) in the womb. We have an idea that seeing consciousness or other kinds of consciousness are light, but there is only light when visible object appears. She mentioned that there are many more moments of eye-door experiences than other sense doorway experiences and this is why it seems light all the time. In fact the cittas are dark. A very difficult topic that came up several times. We made offerings to the 1,600 monks at Mahagandayon Temple. The bhikkhus in order of seniority seemed to file past forever. They were very well discipined with eyes cast down. I was serving so many with rice, that my fingers became a little burnt and I spilt a little down a bhikkhu’s robe. I was impressed by how he continued as though nothing had happened and without a sideways glance at all. When I do tai-chi here, my teacher always reminds me to keep my glance down and ignore anything around. Dificult for me with accumulations for lots of curiosity (lobha). It was the same when we made offerings to a large number of bhikkhus at a well-known temple outside Yangon where the chief bhikkhu can apparently recite the entire Tipitaka. In Bagan we walked around Scwezigon Pagoda in very unusual heavy rain and Thatbyinyu Stupa (the very tall one). Others too, but I’m already getting them confused. I had a discussion with a friend about paying respect in temples. We have our preferences for temples, stupas and Buddhas, but K.Sujin reminded me a long time ago to reflect on the Buddha’s qualities and not on preferences, otherwise it’ll condition aversion for some images or temples and we’ll forget all about the reasons for paying respect. We had a lovely lunch at a riverside restaurant before catching the flight to Yangon. It’s hard for me to remember any details about the food, but I remember the little discussions we had. At the end of the meal Shakti’s friend began a discussion with K.Sujin about concepts and realities and this continued later in a shop. We understand for a few moments and then become lost in the stories again. I thought I’d just add a few more comments as you requested. Arriving back in Bangkok and then Hong Kong a little later reminded me of Crocodile Dundee arriving in New York from the outback. In the end, whether in the big city or the charming countryside, the truths and realities are the same. I know that bhikkhus and lay people have studied and revered the Abhidhamma and other texts in Myanmar since the very early days and helped preserve the teachings so very carefully for us to study today. It’s a very rich country in this regard. Metta, Sarah p.s Still hoping you'll add your pic one day, Suan. Connie, do you have one too?? ====== 26680 From: shakti Date: Thu Nov 6, 2003 1:38am Subject: re: guarding the senses (James) Hi James and others, I am now back in Montana and working my way back thru the many posts from all of you. Thanks for your comments and web refrences. When I have more time I hope to look some of the refrences up. James, I think you'd really enjoy Thailand after spending time in Egypt. I don't know if you've ever been to Thailand but, it is a sharp contrast to Egypt. (I spent time in Egypt in 1998). I have always been so inspired by many of the Thai's deep commitment to practice. The food is clean and fabulous and travelling around is relatively easy. If anyone is up for an interesting adventure the trip to India might be a great opportunity. I'm considering join the trip myself. With metta, Shakti - buddhatrue wrote: > James: Could be, actually I am seriously considering moving to > Thailand to teach after a year here in Cairo. A year in Cairo is > probably enough for anyone! ;-). Taiwan is a strong possibility > also. Either way I could easily travel to Bangkok and Hong Kong. I > am finding that traveling anywhere other than the Middle East from > Cairo is problematic and expensive. Don't count on me coming to Hong > Kong this year. From what I am reading, it sounds like your get- > togethers in Bangkok are a real hoot! I may not agree with > everything you discuss, but I like a good adventure! ;-) ..... Keep us posted! As for great adventures, you or others might like to consider joining a planned trip with A.Sujin and several bus-loads around the holy places and a few sight-seeing and shopping diversions in India sometime next year - maybe Oct. The first part of the adventure is getting your name down on ‘The List’ now before any details are available;-) I’m sure Nina will be going and I know a few others are planning to. We haven’t even discussed it - if a number of DSGers were going it would add interest for me for sure;-) However, I should say that tolerance for lots of Thai and lots of Pali words in English discussions (even if none of it is understood) would be pretty essential, I think. Do you have any comments, Christine or Azita? Metta, Sarah p.s Chris - I think it’s the weekend of Jan 30th -Feb 1st that some of us hope to be meeting with Nina in Bkk. ====== 26681 From: buddhatrue Date: Thu Nov 6, 2003 1:53am Subject: Re: Pigs eating dung --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" wrote: > I had been wrestling with this issue (intrinsic quality of rupa) in > the back the back of my mind for a couple of years. > > Rob M. (and Sarah), The entire concept of `rupa' is ill-defined to say the least. It is a make-believe idea to create a 'map' of the world and consciousness, and how they interact. You have simply touched on one of its many flaws. Nothing in our environment has an intrinsic quality of satisfactoriness or unsatisfactoriness save what we, with our thinking minds, give it. One man's trash is another man's treasure, and that is the way it has always been. This is not a perversion, as Sarah suggests, but a matter or perception. Why fly in the face of all common sense just because the Abhidhamma says to? Again, this is sincere proof that the Buddha did not teach the Abhidhamma. He only taught what could be proven for ourselves...'rupa' is not one of those things. Metta, James 26682 From: robmoult Date: Thu Nov 6, 2003 1:57am Subject: [dsg] Re: Myanmar5: Equalizing/Balancing/Coupling of Faculties Hi Sarah, Nina, RobK, Suan and others, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah > -- - robmoult wrote: > > > Sarah, I tend to see accumulations as central to many aspects of the > > Dhamma and I continue to be nervous that this subject does not > > appear to be given prominence in the texts. > > > > Comments? > The more we understand about natural decisive support and other > conditions, the more we can appreciate when we read any suttas that they > are a description of facts and detailed conditioned realities from past > and present causes - no selves, no beings at all. > > RobM, I may be missing the point of your question, in which case, please > explain more and perhaps Nina, RobertK or others may have further > comments. In a nutshell, if "accumulations" are such a key aspect of the Dhamma, why are they only "implicitly and indirectly" referenced in the Suttas and the Abhidhamma texts? Why is there not a series of Suttas on the theme of accumulations? Why does the Vibhanga not include an essay on accumulations? This makes me anxious that I may be overestimating the importance of accumulations. Perhaps they truly are only "Part c of one of the 24 conditions". Metta, Rob M :-) 26683 From: christine_forsyth Date: Thu Nov 6, 2003 2:14am Subject: [dsg] Re: Myanmar5: Equalizing/Balancing/Coupling of Faculties Hi RobM, and all, Thank-you for asking this. I also wonder about the same thing. It seems to be commonsense - but with so little textual support, is it possible that there is a house of cards resting on this one ace. metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" wrote: > Hi Sarah, Nina, RobK, Suan and others, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah > - - > - robmoult wrote: > > > > Sarah, I tend to see accumulations as central to many aspects of > the > > > Dhamma and I continue to be nervous that this subject does not > > > appear to be given prominence in the texts. > > > > > > Comments? > > The more we understand about natural decisive support and other > > conditions, the more we can appreciate when we read any suttas > that they > > are a description of facts and detailed conditioned realities from > past > > and present causes - no selves, no beings at all. > > > > RobM, I may be missing the point of your question, in which case, > please > > explain more and perhaps Nina, RobertK or others may have further > > comments. > > In a nutshell, if "accumulations" are such a key aspect of the > Dhamma, why are they only "implicitly and indirectly" referenced in > the Suttas and the Abhidhamma texts? Why is there not a series of > Suttas on the theme of accumulations? Why does the Vibhanga not > include an essay on accumulations? This makes me anxious that I may > be overestimating the importance of accumulations. Perhaps they > truly are only "Part c of one of the 24 conditions". > > Metta, > Rob M :-) 26684 From: Sarah Date: Thu Nov 6, 2003 2:17am Subject: I couldn't believe my eyes..... Dear Friends, Today the main English newspaper in Hong Kong, the South China Morning Post,is celebrating its centenary edition. To celebrate, it included a copy of the very first edition which of course came out on November 6th, 1903. It’s fascinating to me. The first page (like the origninal ‘Times’ in London) consists of advertisements. These make good reading in themselves - ads for steamers, typewriters, arms and ammunition, coal and shipping vessels. Page 2 consists of a full page of information about the Shanghai horse races. I’ll come back to Page 3, but can’t resist mentioning that page 4 & 5 give brief news reports from London and a few brief local ariticles. The reports include movements of the Tsar of Russia, the Kaiser, regional reports on mutineers, priates and smugglers, a message from the King of England, fears about war between Japan and Russia, President Roosevelt’s displeasure in relation to Colombia and the Panama Canal and so on;-) The best local article(about cricket of course;-)) starts off: “Nothing is so despicable in a community as snobbery. It saps the manliness out of men. It sucks the womanliness out of women. It denies to man his God-given right to look his neighbour in the face. It generates flunkeyism, toadyism, and the whole ugly brood of reptilian uncharitableness in humanity [S: perhaps we could learn from this vocabulary?]. Classism is a necessity, and discipline a good; but before God man is but Man on the Peak [S: where we used to live], or Man on the Wanchai Road [S: where we live now]. He has no higher attribute than manhood. In sport all men are equal. His Excellency the Governor shoots shoulder to shoulder with the grocer and the vendor of wine. So it is that one detests the term “second class” applied to the Cricket League...” Pages 6,7 and 8 consist of infomation about vessels loading, shipping arrivals, mail ship departures from other countries with likely arrival dates{S: mail just if and when a ship happens to arrive with a canon for the Peak to signal this welcome event], passenger arrivals and guests lists at the main hotels. The reason I’m giving all this background, however, is because I couldn’t believe my eyes when after reading all the ads on p.1, skipping the Shanghai race details on p.2, I turned to p.3 and found that almost the entire page consists of “Book of the Week” and that the book selected for such a long article is Dr TW Rhys David’s “Buddhist India”. The article makes fascinating reading and consists mostly of descriptions of life-styles at the time of the Buddha, including long details of the hot-air baths (apparently described in Vinaya texts) which were in the towns and houses of the rich, much like Turkish baths. It also reviews the chapters on the ‘Beginnings of Writing and Literature’ and then a detailed history on King Ashoka with many of the Edicts and then the crumbling of his empire. Here is one of the Edicts it gives. I think Dharam would approve: "Toleration. Honour should be paid to all, laymen and recluses alike, belonging to other sects. No one should disparage other sects to exalt his own. Self-restraint in words is the right thing." The Book Report does share the page with one other article - the minutes of the Sanitary Board meeting. it is decided that an opium den can be registered without any problem as long as an extra 3inches of cement is added to the 3inches of cement already on the floor. Apparently a cement floor is a pre-requisite condition for opium dens;-) Imagine a newspaper today where a Buddhist book and verses take priority over the wars and quibbles amongst nations!! The space given to the book report and all the world news is exactly the same as well. Metta, Sarah ===== 26685 From: buddhatrue Date: Thu Nov 6, 2003 2:20am Subject: [dsg] Re: kamma and vipaka --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" wrote: > I am particularly interested in Sarah's understanding that the list > of 24 conditions in the Patthana is exhaustive. If she finds a > supporting quote in the texts, I will have an issue. Hi Rob M. What kind of issue will you have? Will you abandon belief in the Abhidhamma? Sarah has posted to me previously that the Patthana is exhaustive: it describes the conditions for everything in the universe. Information about this book on the Internet also points to this idea: "Pa¥¥hæna forming the last book of the Abhidhamma brings together all such relationship in a co-ordinated form to show that the dhammas do not exist as isolated entities but they constitute a well ordered system in which the smallest unit conditions the rest of it and is also being conditioned in return. The arrangement of the system is so very intricate, complex, highly thorough and complete that it earns for this treatise the reputation of being deep, profound and unfathomable." http://www.buddhanet.net/patthana.htm Metta, James 26686 From: robmoult Date: Thu Nov 6, 2003 2:23am Subject: Re: Pigs eating dung Hi James (and all), --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: > The entire concept of `rupa' is ill-defined to say the least. It is > a make-believe idea to create a 'map' of the world and consciousness, > and how they interact. You have simply touched on one of its many > flaws. Nothing in our environment has an intrinsic quality of > satisfactoriness or unsatisfactoriness save what we, with our > thinking minds, give it. One man's trash is another man's treasure, > and that is the way it has always been. This is not a perversion, as > Sarah suggests, but a matter or perception. Why fly in the face of > all common sense just because the Abhidhamma says to? Again, this is > sincere proof that the Buddha did not teach the Abhidhamma. He only > taught what could be proven for ourselves...'rupa' is not one of > those things. According to the Bhumija sutta (Mn126), good results (that what we are all looking for) come from proper practice, not from aspirations (or studying the Abhidhamma). In other words, studying the Abhidhamma is not a necessary condition to enlightenment. In the simile of the raft, the Buddha said that we must be prepared to abandon the Dhamma when the time is right (i.e. after having crossed the river, no need to carry the raft along with us). As we develop ourselves, each of us will take a different path and use different tools, based on our accumulations. For me, I find the study and discussion on the Abhidhamma (and the associated Dhamma) to be a conducive path for me. The Tibetian monks focus on esoteric practices which really hold little appeal to me. Each of the five spiritual faculties (faith, energy, concentration, mindfulness and wisdom) must be developed. You have a problem with the entire concept of rupa. I understand that and I cannot say that you are wrong. I faced the same issue when discussing the 31 planes: - Some may say, "this sounds like fairy tales" - Others say, "it is in the texts, it must be true" - I say, "this helps me put some of the Buddha's comments in the Suttas into proper context to better understand the underlying message" Here is a zen-type story to illustrate my point. One monk says, "we need to live in the moment, there is no need to discuss rebirth as it is not related to this moment". A second monk says, "rebirth was a key part of the Buddha's teaching, we should study it." The two monks cannot agree and decide to consult the abbot. The first monk goes to see the abbot and presents his case. The abbot says, "That is correct!" Separately, the second monk goes to see the abbot and presents his case. The abbot says, "That is correct!" When the monks meet to compare notes, they are confused and decide to visit the abbot together. The monks say, "We can't both be correct!" The abbot replies, "That is also correct!!!" My interpretation of this story is that each monk was correct for himself and that there does not have to be one "correct approach" for all monks. James, let's celebrate and share the things we have in common. Your comments on this and othe posts have helped my understanding and I sincerely hope that the benefits are mutual. Quite frankly, as I mentioned in an earlier post, the issue of intrinsic qualities of rupa is such an insignificant detail in the Abhidhamma that I was wrong to puff up like a peacock when I finally figured out what the text meant. Metta, Rob M :-) 26687 From: robmoult Date: Thu Nov 6, 2003 2:37am Subject: [dsg] Re: kamma and vipaka Hi James, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" > wrote: > > I am particularly interested in Sarah's understanding that > the list > > of 24 conditions in the Patthana is exhaustive. If she finds a > > supporting quote in the texts, I will have an issue. > What kind of issue will you have? Will you abandon belief in the > Abhidhamma? Sarah has posted to me previously that the Patthana is > exhaustive: it describes the conditions for everything in the > universe. Information about this book on the Internet also points to > this idea: > > "Pa¥¥hæna forming the last book of the Abhidhamma brings together all > such relationship in a co-ordinated form to show that the dhammas do > not exist as isolated entities but they constitute a well ordered > system in which the smallest unit conditions the rest of it and is > also being conditioned in return. The arrangement of the system is so > very intricate, complex, highly thorough and complete that it earns > for this treatise the reputation of being deep, profound and > unfathomable." > http://www.buddhanet.net/patthana.htm Excellent question! :-) :-) If Sarah can provide me with a specific quote from the texts, then I will have to examine it carefully (perhaps even go to the original Pali version, gasp!). If the quote is clear and inescapable, then I will try to figure out how the 24 conditions could be interpreted as including all the other stuff. If that fails, I will put it aside as "one of those things I need to put on the back burner for a while and approach it with a fresh perspective later". In fact, I put "intrinsic qualities of matter" on the back burner for a while and I also put "free will or not" on the back burner for a while as well. I figured that when conditions were right, I could revisit the subject and it would make better sense then. This approach worked out well for the other conundrums; it might work for this one as well. Metta, Rob M :-) 26688 From: shakti Date: Thu Nov 6, 2003 2:54am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: kamma and vipaka Hi Larry, The characteristic of air is support, it's function is motion or movement and the manifestation is that of conveying. Therefore it would seem that it is 'air' that moves / propels the body in movement. No I or self that moves. With metta, Shakti Hi Rob, Is the air element considered to be a condition for the arising of rupa in "movement"? Vism. XI 93, note 37: "Elsewhere Pm. (p.359) says of the air element: ' "It blows" (par.87): it is stirred; the meaning is that the conglomeration of elements is made to move (go) by its action as cause for successive arising at adjacent locations (points)', and 'Propelling (samabbhaahana) is the act of causing the successive arising at adjacent locations of material groups (ruupa-kalaapa)' (p.362)." Larry Hi Larry, LBIDD@w... wrote: Rob: "I noted that there was no grouping for matter as a condition for matter. If I had studied the actual conditions carefully, I would have noticed that there are some cases of matter acting as a condition for matter included." 26689 From: buddhatrue Date: Thu Nov 6, 2003 4:19am Subject: Re: guarding the senses (James) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, shakti wrote: > Hi James and others, > > I am now back in Montana and working my way back thru the many posts from all of you. Thanks for your comments and web refrences. When I have more time I hope to look some of the refrences up. > > James, I think you'd really enjoy Thailand after spending time in Egypt. I don't know if you've ever been to Thailand but, it is a sharp contrast to Egypt. (I spent time in Egypt in 1998). I have always been so inspired by many of the Thai's deep commitment to practice. The food is clean and fabulous and travelling around is relatively easy. > > If anyone is up for an interesting adventure the trip to India might be a great opportunity. I'm considering join the trip myself. > > With metta, Shakti Hi Shakti, Thank you for writing. Yes I have been to Thailand, twice actually. I love everything about Thailand (except for forests infested with poisonous ants!...long story ;-). I have traveled to many countries and I haven't ever encountered one like Egypt. I don't know about India. You know, in Cairo they actually say, "Well, at least Egypt isn't as bad as India!" LOL! Don't know if that is true or not but I don't think I want to find out. Metta, James 26690 From: Date: Wed Nov 5, 2003 11:21pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: kamma and vipaka Hi, Rob - In a message dated 11/6/03 12:34:34 AM Eastern Standard Time, rob.moult@j... writes: > This is the crux of my question. I believe that there are many > conditions that are not covered by the Patthana. Gravity, friction, > electricity, magnetism, nuclear to name a few. I believe that these > are not included in the Abhidhamma because they are "not conducive > to the holy life, nor do they lead to unbinding (Nibbana)." In other > words, they are outside the Buddha's stated scope of interest. > > These "unlisted conditions" focus on matter as a condition for > matter and form the basis for science (physics, chemistry, biology, > etc.). These "unlisted conditions" do impact what happens to us (not > just vipaka and accumulations). For this reason, trying to analyze > in detail the reasons behind what happens to us is futile. What is > important is that we recognize that everything arises because of > natural conditions; no unseen hand of God or "working of self" > behind what happens to us. ---------------------------------------------------- Howard: But when rupa is conditioned by previous rupa, that previous rupa might be mind-conditioned rupa (and I believe ultimately *is* mind-conditioned rupa, even when not directly so, for mind is the forerunner of all dhammas). In any case, I think quite generally that "trying to analyze in detail the reasons behind what happens to us is futile. What is important is that we recognize that everything arises because of natural conditions; no unseen hand of God or 'working of self' behind what happens to us," and though the fact of this natural and impersonal origin of events can certainly be bolstered by reading some details and thinking about some details, it can be most essentially ascertained by directly seeing for oneself that this is so by means of following the Buddha's directions for investigating - for directly examining what arises with a well trained and cultivated mind. ------------------------------------------------------- > > I am particularly interested in Sarah's understanding that the list > of 24 conditions in the Patthana is exhaustive. If she finds a > supporting quote in the texts, I will have an issue. > > Metta, > Rob M :-) > ============================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 26691 From: shakti Date: Thu Nov 6, 2003 4:36am Subject: Re: [dsg] Myanmar (Nina) Dear Nina, I have enjoyed your posts and books and been very inspired by them. I look forward to meeting you very soon. I hope that it works out that I can join all of you in Bangkok the end of January. With metta, Shakti nina van gorkom wrote: Dear Shakti, Thank you very much for your report, I was delighted to read it. I think we are going to meet in Bgk next year, looking forward, Nina. op 29-10-2003 15:08 schreef shakti op deannajohnsonusa@y...: > > It has been over 25 years since I first visited Burma, 26692 From: buddhatrue Date: Thu Nov 6, 2003 4:36am Subject: Re: Pigs eating dung --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" wrote: > Hi James (and all), > James, let's celebrate and share the things we have in common. Your > comments on this and othe posts have helped my understanding and I > sincerely hope that the benefits are mutual. > > Hi Rob M, Of course. Just thought I would speak up…and I have been far too agreeable lately ;-). That it took me this long to comment on this thread about rupa demonstrates, I think, a tremendous amount of self- control on my part! ;-). Seriously, if you believe that the Abhidhamma is a `tool' for understanding the dhamma, more power to you. I am not convinced that it is. But it must work for some people or those scholar-monks wouldn't have written it. Just remember, too much theorizing is probably just an attempt to block out the suffering that is at hand. Metta, James Ps. Your zen-story was cute…you heretic! ;-) 26693 From: christine_forsyth Date: Thu Nov 6, 2003 4:39am Subject: Dark Citta was (Re: More Myanmar stories;-)) Hi Sarah, and all, Thank you for mentioning K. Sujins' words on how dark citta is. It made a great impression on me at the time. If seeing consciousness is only one moment among many, darting in and out, alternating with hearing, thinking, smelling, feeling or whatever - and if it is only when visible object appears that there is light - the fact that when our eyes are open there seems to be continuous light shows how incredibly rapidly citta arises and falls away. So quick! And it was her use of Seeing as 'only seeing' that, at the time :-), seemed so clearly to me to be without a self. metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: 26694 From: Sarah Date: Thu Nov 6, 2003 6:14am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: kamma and vipaka Hi RobM, --- robmoult wrote: > This is the crux of my question. I believe that there are many > conditions that are not covered by the Patthana. Gravity, friction, > electricity, magnetism, nuclear to name a few. I believe that these > are not included in the Abhidhamma because they are "not conducive > to the holy life, nor do they lead to unbinding (Nibbana)." In other > words, they are outside the Buddha's stated scope of interest. ..... I believe they are concepts, so they may fall under arammana paccaya (object) or pakatupanissaya paccaya (natural decisive support) only. They are concepts representing rupas. The rupas (heat, air, solidity etc) condition other rupas and also cittas as discussed. ..... > These "unlisted conditions" focus on matter as a condition for > matter and form the basis for science (physics, chemistry, biology, > etc.). These "unlisted conditions" do impact what happens to us (not > just vipaka and accumulations). For this reason, trying to analyze > in detail the reasons behind what happens to us is futile. What is > important is that we recognize that everything arises because of > natural conditions; no unseen hand of God or "working of self" > behind what happens to us. ..... Of course we can’t understand all the complexities, but that’s because of our very limited understanding of realities, not because of our limited understanding of science (more concepts;-)). ..... > I am particularly interested in Sarah's understanding that the list > of 24 conditions in the Patthana is exhaustive. If she finds a > supporting quote in the texts, I will have an issue. ..... I don’t think I’ve ever used the word ‘exhaustive’, but I do think that the conditions or the arising of all realities are intricately detailed. The best I can do at short notice is to quote from U Narada’s Intro to the Patthana he translated: “Patthana (Conditional Relations) deals with the 22 Triplets and 100 Couplets of the Dhammasangani, i.e. all the ultimate realities, both singly and in combinations, with reference to the 24 conditions to show how the causes and their effects are related. In the methods of the four Noble Truths and Dependent Origination, only the manifested causes and effects are considered. but in Patthana, the forces that bring about the relations between the causes and effects are also taken into account and its is with these forces that this subject is primarily concerned. Hence statements such as “Visible object-base is related to eye-consciousness element and its associated states by object condition” are met with in the Text. This means that visible object-base, a state as the condition, is related to eye-consciousness element and its associated states, the states as the conditioned, by the force of the object condition or the conditioning force of object.” A little later it defines force (satti), using one of our favourite words ‘inherent’;-) “Force (satti). It is that which has the power to bring about or accomplish. Just as the hotness of chilli is inherent in it and cannot exist apart from it and as the sweetness of sugar is inherent in it and cannot exist apart from it, so also, the conditioning forces inherent in the states cannot exist apart from those states. For example, in root condition, the force of root condition (conditioning force) inherent in the state of greed, which is one of the six roots, cannot exist apart from that state. Here the root conditioning state is greed and the conditioning force of greed is also greed. Therefore, the force and the state which possess that force cannot be considered apart from each other. It has to be remembered, however, that a state can possess many conditioning forces...” I’m not sure if this helps, Rob, but it may be a helpful introduction to Conditions for others. Metta, Sarah p.s I’ll be very tied up for the next couple of days or so (in between teaching tomorrow, we’ll also be celebrating our anniversary, inc. going to the long-awaited Stones concert- at least it’s outdoors and round the corner. Neil Young coming through the window as I write;-)) - if you can persuade RobertK to discuss gravity, science and conditions with you, he’s more likely to appreciate your view-point having had similar discussions I think. Christine & Thomas, thank you both for your helpful additional details. ================ 26695 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Thu Nov 6, 2003 6:17am Subject: Vism.EngPali.XIV, 20 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga), Ch. XIV [How many kinds of understanding are there] 20. 11. As regards the tetrads, in the first tetrad, knowledge that occurs contingent upon the truth of suffering is "knowledge of suffering"; knowledge that occurs contingent upon the origin of suffering is "knowledge of the origin of suffering"; knowledge that occurs contingent upon the cessation of suffering is "knowledge of the cessation of suffering"; and knowledge that occurs contingent upon the way leading to the cessation of suffering is "knowledge of the way leading to the cessation of suffering". So it is of four kinds as knowledge of the four truths. 20. catukkesu pa.thamacatukke dukkhasacca.m aarabbha pavatta.m ~naa.na.m dukkhe ~naa.na.m. dukkhasamudaya.m aarabbha pavatta.m ~naa.na.m dukkhasamudaye~naa.na.m. dukkhanirodha.m aarabbha pavatta.m ~naa.na.m dukkhanirodhe~naa.na.m. dukkhanirodhagaamini.m pa.tipada.m aarabbha pavatta.m ~naa.na.m dukkhanirodhagaaminiyaa pa.tipadaaya ~naa.nanti eva.m catuusu saccesu~naa.navasena catubbidhaa. 26696 From: abhidhammika Date: Thu Nov 6, 2003 6:29am Subject: Re: More Myanmar stories;-) Dear Sarah Thank you for your kind sharing of experiences in Myanmar during a brief visit there. I studied Pali at the Mandalay University briefly before transfer to a university in Yangon. The student hall I stayed was not very far from the eastern wall of the Mandalay Palace. So it is called Nan Shaet Hall (Nan = Palace, Shaet = East). And it is also within a walking distance of about one hour or so away from Manadalay Hill. So in the evenings, I usually organized walks with other students to visit Mandalay Hill, Kuthodaw (Kusala Royal), Historical Monasteries in the suburbs between Nan Shaet Hall and Mandalay Hill. As those places are historical places and buildings, I had a feeling of being relocated in a different time and place. I did not have a chance to visit Mahagandhayon (Mahaa gandha aaramma.na). But, I regard the late Mahagandhayon Sayadaw, Ashin Janakaabhivamsa, as my textual guru because he wrote modern Nissaya texts on all the commentaries and subcommentaries on Abhidhamma Pi.taka, which I study and consult all the time (I have them in Canberra). I also use his Nissaya text of Kaccaayana Pali Saddaa (Pali grammar). I haven't been to Pagan either. I will surely visit Pagan when I visit Myanmar. I have no doubt about going to have a feeling of relocation in even more distant time and place. I also hope that the natural environments in Myanmar remain as long as possible. No need to destroy them in the name of development. Yes, study of Abhidhamma, commentaries, and subcommentaries, study of Pali saddaa texts the old way, writing of new works and new Nissaya texts on Pali Tipi.taka will remain intact through the thriving learning centres in each region of Myanmar such as Mandalay Monasteries, Sagai Monasteries, Pakhukkuu Monasteries, Pyi Monasteries, Yangon Monasteries, Pegu Monasteries, Myaungmya Monasteries, Mawlamyaing Monasteries and the like. The above are large cities with established famous unique monastic learning traditions of their own. Needless to say, new works keep being produced from those regional monasteries generations after generations. And it is customary for Myanmar Sayadaws to seek out and learn from monateries from other regions even after they have passed all the prescribed monastic examinations. The late Mahagandhayon Sayadaw Asin Janakaabhivamsa had studied at Monastries in Mandalay (Upper Myanmar), Pakhukku (Middle Myanmar) and Myaungmya (Lower Myanmar) to gain richer learning, teaching and interpretative techniques. He was a very prolific writer, too. By the way, U Pe Maung Tin used Pyi Sayadaw's Nissaya texts on A.t.thasaalinii and Visuddhimaggo (Pyi in Middle Myanmar) when he translated them as "The Expositor" and "The Path Of Purity". I have Pyi Sayadaw's Nissaya texts On A.t.thasaalinii in addition to Mahagandhayon Sayadaw's modern Nissaya texts. Pyi Sayadaw's Nissaya texts are called "Old Nissaya Texts". I would like to know what it feels like having Pyi Sayadaw's Nissaya texts on Visuddhimaggo. Nissaya texts are study aids for students of Pali and convenient reference works for Pali scholars. With regards, Suan --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: Hi Suan, --- abhidhammika wrote: > > So I am looking forward to hearing more news trickling down from the > visitors to Myanmar like you and others. ...... It's a long time not to visit your home country and I hope you can visit back sometime soon, even if fairly briefly and get citizenship later. Nina and another friend asked me to add anything more as well. Perhaps others can keep adding their impressions too. Honestly, Suan, we were only in Myanmar for 4nts, 5days, but I felt we saw a lot. It reminded some of us a lot of Sri Lanka or some thought of Thailand 30 years or so ago. Like Sri Lanka, it has remained very undeveloped and poor while neighbouring countries like Thailand have developed rapidly. But a lot of the beautiful landscapes and stupas can be seen and appreciated in Myanmar as a result of the lack of development on the horizon. Nowhere was crowded, everyone was friendly and it seemed very peaceful everywhere. In the end, whether in the big city or the charming countryside, the truths and realities are the same. I know that bhikkhus and lay people have studied and revered the Abhidhamma and other texts in Myanmar since the very early days and helped preserve the teachings so very carefully for us to study today. It's a very rich country in this regard. Metta, Sarah p.s Still hoping you'll add your pic one day, Suan. Connie, do you have one too?? ====== 26697 From: buddhatrue Date: Thu Nov 6, 2003 6:49am Subject: Consciousness and Self-View Hi All, Came across this interesting bibliographic entry I thought I might share: Anscombe, G.E.M. 1981. "The first person." In Metaphysics and Philosophy of Mind: Collected Philosophical Papers Volume II , 21-36. Oxford: Blackwell. Objects to the claim that bodily information is the source of the sense of self; holds that we can imagine ourselves completely disembodied while retaining self-consciousness: And now imagine that I get into a state of "sensory deprivation." Sight is cut off, and I am locally anaesthetized everywhere, perhaps floated in a tank of tepid water; I am unable to speak, or touch any part of my body with any other. Now I tell myself, "I won't let this happen again!" If the object meant by "I" is this body, this human being, then in these circumstances it won't be present to my senses; and how else can it be "present to" me? But have I lost what I mean by "I"? Is that not present to me? Am I reduced to, as it were, "referring in absence?" I have not lost my "self- consciousness;" nor can what I mean by "I" be an object no longer present to me. This both seems right in itself, and will be required by the "guaranteed reference" we are considering. (Anscombe 1981: 31) Anscombe is arguing against the view, later defended by Evans (see 1982), that self-reference is dependent upon information from one's body. http://home.earthlink.net/~dravita/ This is a philosophical argument that self-view comes from the mind alone and not the senses. To my knowledge, it hasn't been reported that those in sensory deprivation experiments lose their sense of self; they retain their sense of self even without sensory input. Just as the Buddha taught, it all stems from the mind. Metta, James 26698 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Thu Nov 6, 2003 10:01am Subject: Re: Pigs eating dung Hi Rob, One may think that the study and discussion on the Abhidhamma to be a conducive path. However, the question is, a conducive path to what? I would think it is important to distinguish the Buddha's teaching from what it is not, and not to confuse the bark with the core. Peace, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" wrote: > Hi James (and all), [snip] 26699 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Nov 6, 2003 10:04am Subject: Re: [dsg] FW: Ignorance II Dear Sarah and all, I continue. >op 03-11-2003 20:08 schreef Michael Beisert op mbeisert@h...: > “The point was not whether there is stronger vipaka for an ignorant person. > > Sorry then, it seems I misunderstood your question … What was the question > again? I am lost now. >N: The quote from the Milinda questions did not deal with vipaka. It dealt with akusala citta. When ignorance is strong you burn yourself more:< ,"Indeed, great king, in the same way the greater demerit is for him who does evil not knowing.> Ignorance arises with each akusala citta, but it can be of different degrees. When you have no notion of what is akusala the evil you commit is of a higher degree. M: I am not sure about akusala is stronger when there is more ignorance’ > either ignorance is present as a mental factor or it is not present. I don’t > see this relative strength of ignorance’ in the texts. Where do you find > this? N: There are different degrees of akusala which is always accompanied by ignorance: ignorance of what is kusala, what is akusala, ignorance of the danger of akusala and of the benefit of kusala. Ignorance is gradually worn away by those who develop understanding and attain stages of enlightenment, a long process, taking aeons. Only the arahat has completely eradicated ignorance. In your own life you can notice that dosa sometimes is a slight uneasiness, and sometimes a stronger aversion such as anger. Ignorance is very coarse when one does not see that akusala is harmful, for instance if one at all costs is after one's own pleasure and sees this as one's goal. A person might even kill other beings, lie and steal all for his own sake. Ignorance conditions wrong view which may be very dangerous, such as the views of Makkhali Gosaala, Puura.na Kassapa and Ajita Kesakambali. If one propagates that akusala kamma does not bring any result it is most harmful for society. See the Brahmajaalasutta for different kinds of wrong view conditioned by coarse ignorance. We do not advocate such theories, but there are other forms of ignorance, less coarse, but I would not call them subtle. In the Kindred Sayings IV, Second Fifty, Ch I, §53 we read that a monk said: <'By how knowing, lord, by how seeing does ignorance vanish and knowledge arise?' 'In him that knows and sees the eye as impermanent... that knows and sees objects... as impermanent, ignorance vanishes and knowledge arises.' The same is said with regard to the other doorways. Ignorance is not seeing the presently arisen dhamma as impermanent, dukkha and anattaa. The sotaapanna has realized the four noble Truths, but there are many degrees of realizing this. He still has akusala, but no longer to the degree of conditioning akusala kamma that can produce an unhappy rebirth. Gradually the three roots are worn away until one reaches arahatship. M: I understand your considerations about how vipaka can be produced. But I > thought we should take a sort of scientific approach and simplify the > variables otherwise it is impossible to get any answer. N: Science has another approach and another goal, it is quite different from the Buddha's teachings which have as the aim to develop understanding so that defilements are gradually eradicated. Kamma and vipaka belong to the "unthinkables", people would become mad when they try to find out which kamma produces which vipaka. We cannot simplify what is the domain of the Buddhas. For us it is more fruitful to begin to understand whether the citta at this moment is kusala or akusala. There is enough ignorance that has to be worn away. Nina. 26700 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Nov 6, 2003 10:04am Subject: Vis. 34 and Tiika Vis. 34. Herein, all kinds of states whatsoever that have the characteristic of 'being molested' (ruppana) by cold, etc., taken all together should be understood as the materiality (ruupa) aggregate. 1. That is of one kind with the characteristic of 'being molested'. 2. It is also of two kinds when classed as (a) primary entity (bhuuta) and (b) derived [by clinging] (upaadaaya). Pali Vis. 34: tattha ya.m ki~nci siitaadiihi ruppanalakkha.na.m dhammajaata.m, sabba.m ta.m ekato katvaa ruupakkhandhoti veditabba.m. tadeta.m ruppanalakkha.nena ekavidhampi bhuutopaadaayabhedato duvidha.m. Tiika: 34. Tatthaati tesu pa~ncasu khandhesu. Ya.m ki~nciiti anavasesapariyaadaana.m. As to the word, herein, this means, in the five aggregates. As to the expression, whatsoever, this means an all-inclusive treatment. ..... (grammatical explanation of the expression ya.m ki~nci, what so ever.) Siitaadiihiiti siitu.nhajighacchaapipaasaadiihi. Hetu-atthe ceta.m kara.navacana.m. (Molested) by cold etc. , this means by cold, heat, hunger, thirst, etc. This is the instrumental case with the meaning of cause. .... Bhuutopaadaayabhedatoti ettha tadadhiinavuttitaaya bhavati ettha upaadaayaruupanti bhuuta.m. As to the expression, with regard to the classification as principal elements and derived elements, here, the latter proceed by the condition of dependence on them (principle elements), and thus they have become derived (by clinging). ....... English: As to the word, herein, this means, in the five aggregates. As to the expression, whatsoever, this means an all-inclusive treatment. ..... (grammatical explanation of the expression ya.m ki~nci, what so ever.) (Molested) by cold etc. , this means by cold, heat, hunger, thirst, etc. This is the instrumental case with the meaning of cause. .... As to the expression, with regard to the classification as principal elements and derived elements, here, the latter proceed by the condition of dependence on them (principle elements), and thus they have become derived (by clinging). ....... 26701 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Nov 6, 2003 10:04am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism. XIV 34, 35, 36 Hi Larry, thank you very much. Very uuseful. Some remarks below. op 06-11-2003 02:57 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > Ch. XI 93. 4. "As to characteristic", etc.: he should advert to the > four elements in this way: 'The earth element--what are its > characteristic, function, manifestation?, [defining them in this way]: > The earth element has the characteristic of hardness. Its function is to act as a foundation. N: There could not be walking, standing, sitting or lying down without the four great elements, they are there all the time performing their functions. This reminds us to what extent our postures are conditioned. Also small movements like moving fingers, blinking one's eyes, they are all operations of the great elements. The elements are sabhaavadhammas, dhammas with their own distinct nature, they manifest their own characteristics. Only one characteristic appears at a time, since citta experiences only one object at a time: hardness, softness, heat, cold, motion or pressure. When we feel hot the rupa of heat appears, but there is also the nama which experiences heat, otherwise heat could not appear. < The air element has the characteristic of > distending. Its fuction is to cause motion. It is manifested as > conveying. (37) This is how they should be given attention by > characteristic, and so on. [366] N: when we think of motion we usually have the idea of, I am moving forward. We think of a whole situation. But the elements arise and fall away extremely fast. While we are thinking of moving forward countless elements have arisen and fallen away already. We cannot slow them down at all. I find this a good explanation: > "Conveying" is acting as cause for the successive arising at adjacent > locations (desantaruppatti) of the conglomeration of elements > (bhuuta-sa.nghaata)' (Pm.363). Elsewhere Pm. (p.359) says of the air > element: ' "It blows" (par.87): it is stirred; the meaning is that the > conglomeration of elements is made to move (go) by its action as cause > for successive arising at adjacent locations (points)', and 'Propelling > (samabbhaahana) is the act of causing the successive arising at adjacent > locations of material groups (ruupa-kalaapa)' (p.362). N: While moving forward we do not need to think of the way the elements work, but they perform their functions already, and they do so very fast, no matter whether we walk slowly or rapidly. Nina. 26702 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Nov 6, 2003 10:04am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:contact Hi Howard, op 05-11-2003 20:20 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: >> In a previous discussion you and Rob >>> explained that consciousness is just pure consciousness. .. > =============================== > This discussion is exactly the sort of thing that motivates my > understanding of a contact as primary and of vi~n~nana, aramanna, and dvara as > co-occurring aspects of that event. Seeing is visual contact - it is > consciousness > of visual object via the eye door. There is no seeing until the co-occurence > of > consciousness, visual object (as object of that consciousness), and eye-door > activation (as medium for that seeing). Seeing is different from hearing... N: Contact is a cetasika, arising with each citta and it assists the citta in contacting the object. Also in the suttas contact is mentioned, not only in the Abhidhamma. I agree with your description of the co-occurring of seeing, visible object and eye-door. Only I would not say contact is primary, because there is also one-pointedness which conditions the citta to cognize only that one object, and there are other cetasikas performing their functions. Cittas are variegated in many ways. But they all have in common that they clearly cognize an object. No matter what type of citta arises, it has to cognize an object. In that sense they are luminous or pure. Nina. 26703 From: robmoult Date: Thu Nov 6, 2003 2:34pm Subject: Re: Pigs eating dung Hi Victor, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "yu_zhonghao" wrote: > One may think that the study and discussion on the Abhidhamma to be > a conducive path. However, the question is, a conducive path to > what? > > I would think it is important to distinguish the Buddha's teaching > from what it is not, and not to confuse the bark with the core. In the Cula-Malunkyovada Sutta (Mn63) and the Simsapa Sutta (Sn LVI.31), the Buddha clearly defined the goal of the teaching; supporting the holy life and attainment of Nibbana. Conditions (wife, kids, etc.) do not support me becoming a monk in this life. However, as a layperson, I am able to practice the ten bases of meritorious actions (punna-kiriya vatthu): - Charity (dana) - Morality (sila) - Meditation (bhavana) - Respect for elders (appacayana) - Service (veyavacca) - Transfer of merit (pattidana) - Rejoicing in other's merits (pattanumodana) - Listening to the Dhamma (Dhamma-savana) - Teaching the Dhamma (Dhamma-desana) - Straightening out of view (ditthijjukamma) As I practice these ten bases of meritorious actions, I develop accumulations and create good kamma for myself. These accumulations and good kamma will be a base for further development in this and in future lives. The journey is unimaginably long, but what is important is that I am moving in the right direction, putting one foot in front of the other, making progress. Victor, from reading your other posts, it is clear that you have studied the Dhamma in some depth. I am sure that none of the material in this post is new to you. I want to thank you for your question; it is important to "go back to the basics" now and then to recalibrate. Your question, plus some other conditions in my life at the moment have given me an interesting idea. These past few days, I have been working with a team of managers from across the region. I have been coaching them on strategic planning. I have been focusing on what makes a good "action item"; an action item must be recorded, visible, time bound (i.e. completion date) and measurable (was it done, Y/N). My idea is to use this approach of strategic planning to my personal life with my ten supporting strategies being the ten bases of meritorious actions. I will then establish a set of specific action items, to be completed within the next three months, against each supporting strategy. This approach will increase the discipline of execution and accountability in my personal life. Anumodana Victor and a sincere "thank-you" for asking this question. Metta, Rob M :-) 26704 From: Date: Thu Nov 6, 2003 11:07am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:contact Hi, Nina - In a message dated 11/6/03 4:27:15 PM Eastern Standard Time, nilo@e... writes: > > Hi Howard, > op 05-11-2003 20:20 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: > > >>In a previous discussion you and Rob > >>>explained that consciousness is just pure consciousness. .. > >=============================== > >This discussion is exactly the sort of thing that motivates my > >understanding of a contact as primary and of vi~n~nana, aramanna, and dvara > as > >co-occurring aspects of that event. Seeing is visual contact - it is > >consciousness > >of visual object via the eye door. There is no seeing until the > co-occurence > >of > >consciousness, visual object (as object of that consciousness), and > eye-door > >activation (as medium for that seeing). Seeing is different from hearing... > N: Contact is a cetasika, arising with each citta and it assists the citta > in contacting the object. Also in the suttas contact is mentioned, not only > in the Abhidhamma. I agree with your description of the co-occurring of > seeing, visible object and eye-door. Only I would not say contact is > primary, because there is also one-pointedness which conditions the citta to > cognize only that one object, and there are other cetasikas performing their > functions. > Cittas are variegated in many ways. But they all have in common that they > clearly cognize an object. No matter what type of citta arises, it has to > cognize an object. In that sense they are luminous or pure. > Nina. > ============================== In my opinion, the nature of contact is one point at which the Abhidhamma and the suttas differ. In Abhidhamma contact is a concomitant to consciousness, something associated with and subordinate to consciousness. In the suttas, contact is an event which is the coming together or co-arising of a consciousness, a sense door, and a sense object, making consciousness an aspect of, and hence subordinate to, contact. Also, I think it is wrong to say that seeing is a type of consciousness. Seeing is exactly awareness of a visual object via the eye door, which makes it visual contact. The visual consciousness, per se, is only the subjective pole of seeing, something which never occurs except as an aspect of a visual contact. Correspondingly for hearing, tasting, feeling,smelling, and cognizing. As I see it, the Abhidhammikas developed a clever conceptual scheme of sequences of mindstates, each of which is an occurrence of consciousness accompanied by a selection from everything else that can occur in some combination, these cetasikas being subordinate functions or features. This is a brilliant and fascinating framework, one which, as a mathematician, I greatly respect, but it does not seem to perfectly accomodate all of reality easily. Moreover, it appears to me to be a BIG stretch to see it as "uncreatively" reflecting the content of the suttas. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 26705 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Thu Nov 6, 2003 4:18pm Subject: Re: Pigs eating dung Hi Rob, The Buddha had a wife and a new-born child before he left the household life. Do you think that his wife and child were supporting condition for him to go forth? You stay as a householder because you want to, not because of your wife and kids. You consider that the study and discussion on the Abhidhamm to be a conducive path. My question is, a conducive path to what? I was not asking what the goal of the Buddha's teaching is? Regarding listening to the Dhamma, how do you know what you listen to is the Dhamma? I think it is great idea to have a strategic planning to your personal life with the ten supporting strategies being the ten bases of meritorious actions. I think it is great because it is about taking initiative of one's own action and life in a positive direction. Best wishes with that! Peace, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" wrote: > Hi Victor, [snip] 26706 From: Date: Thu Nov 6, 2003 4:25pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: kamma and vipaka Hi Shakti, The way I read this footnote, there is no movement, probably because movement implies a continuing body which "anatta" denies. Apparently the air element causes "the successive arising at adjacent locations of material groups". Sort of like the individual frames of a movie arising in quick succession give the impression of movement. Larry Vism. XI 93, note 37: "Elsewhere Pm. (p.359) says of the air element: ' "It blows" (par.87): it is stirred; the meaning is that the conglomeration of elements is made to move (go) by its action as cause for successive arising at adjacent locations (points)', and 'Propelling (samabbhaahana) is the act of causing the successive arising at adjacent locations of material groups (ruupa-kalaapa)' (p.362)." ------------------------- Shakti: Hi Larry, The characteristic of air is support, it's function is motion or movement and the manifestation is that of conveying. Therefore it would seem that it is 'air' that moves / propels the body in movement. No I or self that moves. With metta, Shakti 26707 From: Date: Thu Nov 6, 2003 4:39pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vis. 34 and Tiika "(Molested) by cold etc. , this means by cold, heat, hunger, thirst, etc. This is the instrumental case with the meaning of cause." Hi Nina, This seems to refer to the body (a concept) as rupa. Correct? Also what does "derived [by clinging]" mean? I assume "derived" means made up of the primary elements, but how is this done by clinging? "1. That is of one kind with the characteristic of 'being molested'. 2. It is also of two kinds when classed as (a) primary entity (bhuuta) and (b) derived [by clinging] (upaadaaya)." Larry 26708 From: connie Date: Thu Nov 6, 2003 4:41pm Subject: Re: Myanmar4 - decisive support, accumulations, desirable object, kamma Hi RobM, Sarah, Yes, I did think I'd misread Sarah's "Anything can be a condition as a result" and thank you for confirming that and wading through my confusion with me. I see we're encroaching on another thread here when we start getting into the desireability of rupa objects. [S: For example, in decisive support of object, a desirable object is a strong condition for cittas and cetasikas which are inclined towards it. So, for example, inherently desirable rupas, such as particular tastes, may be a 'decisive support object' for attachment, but only if attachment is accumulated to want such tastes]. The inherent 'desire' of desirability has to be in the accumulations I think, but then what about 'the beautiful'? Fire element is fire element and it's in every kalapa, so what, other than (perverse) accumulations, makes it more desireable in a fresh flower than a crumbled leaf when all conditioned things are dukkha? Left on my own, I'd think only the three sobhana hetu/cetasika could be inherently desireable... not of course, to the point of clinging. The fire on our heads is only desireable insofar as it conditions wise/proper attention. Someone at last night's meditation group said she didn't like being motivated by fear/hell. I've been reading Conditions and have skipped straight to ch. XVII in The Path of Purification (and a lot of skipping around in that), but it's all pretty much parrot or question to me at this point. Not just the Pali... I don't normally use words like 'cogent reason', but as Buddhaghosa says at the end of the chapter... Let a wise man with mindfulness / So practice that he may begin / To find a footing in the deeps / Of the Dependent Origin. And they're set out as 24 conditions, but sometimes, to paraphrase, they're different in letter, but the same in meaning or only in stressing a particular aspect... as with the cogency/decisive force (mental gravity, Rob?) of the three decisive supports/upanissaya. Thus, proximate decisive support approximates proximity, which is the same as contiguity. But only multiple fruits from multiple causes, no singularities except as teaching devices, so I think whatever is pakatupanissaya has to be aahaara as well and I don't know what all else, but "it is unmixed with object and proximity" (XVII 84). I'm more likely to be behind the camera than in front of it, Sarah, and that rarely, but we'll see. peace, connie 26709 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Nov 6, 2003 9:14pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: kamma and vipaka Dear Rob, op 05-11-2003 23:14 schreef robmoult op rob.moult@j...: > I noted that there was no grouping for matter as a condition for > matter. If I had studied the actual conditions carefully, I would > have noticed that there are some cases of matter acting as a > condition for matter included. N: we just read with Larry about the four principal rupas and the derived rupas; the derived ones are dependent on the four principal ones, conditioned by them. Eigh inseparable rupas always arise together and condition one another by conascent condition. Nina. 26710 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Nov 6, 2003 9:14pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Vism. XIV 32, 33 Hi Larry, op 05-11-2003 23:18 schreef Larry op LBIDD@w...: > Larry: How does consciousness give the impression that "a person > comes and goes, stands and sits, with the same mind"? > > I proposed that it was because of the fundamental sameness of > consciousness, but perhaps this isn't right. I agree there are > problems with this. What is your idea? N: We do not see the impermanence, the arising and falling away of the many cittas that succeed one another. The river seems something that stays, but in fact there is new water streaming on all the time. Nina. 26711 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Nov 6, 2003 9:14pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Vism. XIV 32, 33 Hi Larry, I answered already your formerpost and it appears we are two persons with one thought, as we say in Dutch Nina. . op 06-11-2003 05:41 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > L: Many of any kind of phenomena close together seem like one even if > the phenomena are vastly different. In the case of consciousness, > multitudes of moments of consciousness arise one after another and give > the impression that "a person comes and goes, stands and sits with the > same mind". The impression of "the same mind" is due to the extreme > proximity of many moments of consciousness even though the moments are > different and very "fleeting". Better? 26712 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Nov 6, 2003 9:14pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Pigs eating dung Hi Rob, op 05-11-2003 23:47 schreef robmoult op rob.moult@j...: > The question > arises, "what is the condition that would cause kusala vipaka to > arise rather than akusala vipaka?" N: Only kusala kamma. And it must be the right time for it, thus, other conditions cooperate as well. Nina. 26713 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Nov 6, 2003 9:14pm Subject: Re: [dsg] More Myanmar stories;-) Dear Sarah, what a lovely story, interwoven with Dhamma reminders. It gives the atmosphere of Myanmar. Years ago I was there on a private tour with Lodewijk. We had several days in Pagan and also went to Phrom, very far out. The hotel there was like camping out, but quite an experience. I remember all the slabs with the Tipitaka. There is also an association which does the same on copper, with the intention to make the Tipitaka last longer. We visited U Nyun, we knew from Bgk ECAFE, and his family. They asked me when I would start the real meditation. I tried to explain. Nina. op 06-11-2003 10:33 schreef Sarah op sarahdhhk@y...: > Hi Suan, > The first early morning, four of us went up Mandalay hill to the stupa on > top and we were the only people there. 26714 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Nov 6, 2003 9:14pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Myanmar5: Equalizing/Balancing/Coupling of Faculties Hi Rob, Yes. Also contiguity condition is important. And other conditions. Nina. op 06-11-2003 10:57 schreef robmoult op rob.moult@j...: > This makes me anxious that I may > be overestimating the importance of accumulations. Perhaps they > truly are only "Part c of one of the 24 conditions". 26715 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Nov 6, 2003 9:14pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: More Myanmar stories;-) Dear Suan, I am very impressed by the centers of learning and what you tell us about the Sayadaws. We know so little about it. See below. op 06-11-2003 15:29 schreef abhidhammika op suanluzaw@b...: > I would like to know what it > feels like having Pyi Sayadaw's Nissaya texts on Visuddhimaggo. N: It would feel marvellous. The more the better. But it is all in Burmese? S: Nissaya texts are study aids for students of Pali and convenient > reference works for Pali scholars. N: If you have time it would be wonderful to hear some quotes, also on Pali list. Nina. 26716 From: christine_forsyth Date: Fri Nov 7, 2003 0:29am Subject: Glimpses of Glorious Bagan Dear Group, (and Sukin) I have added a number of photos to Sukins' Myanmar Album - of the Jedi at Pagan (photos 37 and 38) - which were sprinkled like wild flowers across the landscape and stretched to the horizon. Thanks to Jon for taking the photos from a higher level than I had the courage to climb to. Sandra's photo is only level 1 of a Jedi, I got that far:) The difficulty was that there were no handrails and it was steep and a bit crumbly. http://photos.groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/lst I quote below an excerpt from a booklet "Glimpses of Glorious Bagan" Universities Historical Research Centre, The Universities Press. Yangon. Myanmar. 1996. (from pages 1 and 2 of the introduction of about 76 pages in total.) "Bagan ... The monuments seem to overwhelm the landscape. There are about 2,000 of them covering an area of 16 square miles on the eastern bank of the Ayeyarwady River in central Myanmar. They are in different sizes and in a bewildering variety of shapes. They are also in varying stages of preservation and disrepair. Some of them throb with life, visited by devotees, a few have become little more than piles of bricks. Whence do they come, these monuments? Who built them? Why? To find the answer to questions such as these one has to travel back in time, to a time when Bagan flourished as a royal city, the heart of a great kingdom. Tradition has it that Bagan was founded by Thamoddarit in the early 2nd century. But perhaps it would be better to date the Bagan of the monuments from its establishment as a walled city with twelve gates and a moat, by King Pyinbya in 849. The chronicles give a list of kings who reigned at Bagan from Thamoddarit onwards, with Pyinbya as the 34th King. But legend is inextricably mingled with history, and sometimes overshadows it, in the accounts of the kings in the chronicles, and it is only with the 42nd king in the list, Anawrahta, that Bagan emerges into the clear light of history. The two and a half centuries from Anawrahta's (1044-1077) accession to the throne in 1044 to the flight of Narathihapate (1256-1287) from the capital in 1283 in the face of the Mongol invasion were the years of Bagan's greatness. The kingdom stretched from Bhamo in the north and far down to the south, from the Thanlwin river in the east to the Western Yoma in the west. Bagan was know as Tattadesa, the Parched Land, to the Mons, and not much rice was grown in the environs of the capital itself. But the royal city could draw upon the rich rice granaries of Kyaukse, 90 miles to the northeast, and Minbu, 70 miles to the south. The Ayeyarwady river linked it to the sea and to the commerce of the Indian Ocean. There was much intercourse with neighbouring countries. Support was given to King Vijaya Bahu I (1059-1114) of Sri Lanka to sustain him in his struggle against the Chola of southern India to help him re-establish a purified Buddhism. Missions were sent to the northern Song capital of Kaifeng. Repairs were made to the Mahabodhi temple at Bodh Gaya in norhtern India. Perhaps more salient than all these indications of economic well- being and political power was the fact that Buddhism flourished exceedingly in Bagan. Tradition, basing itself upon the Sinhalese chronicle, the Mahavamsa, attributes the origins of Buddhism in Myanmar tothe Mission of Sona and Uttara who, in the 3rd Century B.C. came to Suvannabhumi, usually identified with Thaton, on the Gulf of Mottama. Some modern scholars dispute this point. But even if tradition is to be ignored, there can be no denying that Buddhism was already flourishing in Myanmar in the 1st century A.D. , as attested by the archaeological evidence at Peikthanomyo (Vishnu City), 90 miles southeast of Bagan. Buddhism was also an invigorating influence at Thayekhittaya, near modern Pyaymyo 160 miles south of Bagan, where a developed civilization flourished from the 5th to the 9th century. Notwithstanding the fact that Buddhism had enjoyed a long history in Myanmar before the 11th century, the reign of Anawrahta provided a landmark in the development of Buddhism in Myanmar. Anawrahta was the king of strong religious zeal as well as one of the great power. His clay votive tablets, made to acquire merit, are found widely in Myanmar from Katha in the north to Twante in the south. These votive tablets ususally have, on the obverse, a seated image of the Buddha in the earth-touching attitude, with two lines underneath which express the essence of the Buddhist creed: "The Buddha hath the causes told Of all things springing from causes And also how things cease to be, 'Tis this the Mighty Monk proclaims." On the reverse would be the prayer: "Desiring that he may be freed from samsara the Great Properous King Aniruddha himself made this image of the Lord." metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- 26717 From: norakat147 Date: Fri Nov 7, 2003 1:07am Subject: [dsg] Re: Reflections on Wife family, children and cats - To have or not to have Hi RobM (& Sarah), Yes, RobM's comments were very helpful; thanks Rob ;) mucho metta, nori --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > Hi Nori (& RobM), > > I thought Rob's post was very helpful with a good conclusion: > > --- robmoult wrote: > > > It depends on accumulations and conditions. Perhaps you will meet > > the right life partner and this will be a condition for you to > > marry. Perhaps you will not meet a life partner and should remain > > single. Single, married, monk or layperson, what is important is > > that you study and apply the Dhamma. > ..... > We see that all threads lead in the same direction;-) > -snip 26718 From: robmoult Date: Fri Nov 7, 2003 1:08am Subject: Re: Pigs eating dung Hi Victor, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "yu_zhonghao" wrote: > The Buddha had a wife and a new-born child before he left the > household life. Do you think that his wife and child were > supporting condition for him to go forth? ===== Probably. ===== > > You stay as a householder because you want to, not because of your > wife and kids. ===== You are correct :-) ===== > > You consider that the study and discussion on the Abhidhamm to be a > conducive path. My question is, a conducive path to what? I was > not asking what the goal of the Buddha's teaching is? ===== To me, it is the same thing. A conducive path to the goal of the Buddha's teaching. ===== > > Regarding listening to the Dhamma, how do you know what you listen > to is the Dhamma? ===== Excellent question :-) I need to explain a bit of my background to frame the answer to this question. I was raised Christian (not devout, but I did go to church every Sunday). As I teenager, I started to question some of the ideas behind Christianity (teenagers are like that). I stopped going to church and for about five years, I spend a lot of time developing "my own personal philosophy" (teenagers also tend to be self-centred like this). I was about 20 years old and was out camping with my girlfriend and her father (her father happened to be a Christian minister). Around the campfire one evening, her father (the father) asked me about my religious beliefs. For three hours solid, I explained "my own personal philosophy". At the end of my presentation, her father said, "That sounds a lot like Buddhism." I replied, "I have never read anything about Buddhism. I find it hard to believe that I would independently come up with one of the world's major religions!" The father said, "You should read some books on Buddhism (he was an open-minded minister). Promped by this event, I started to read about Buddhism and found that it was exactly paralleled "my own personal philosophy". Now I understand that this affinity to the Dhamma in this life is caused because I must have studied the Dhamma quite seriously in a previous life. Now to answer your question, "how do I know what I listen to is the Dhamma"? To me, the Dhamma is "my own personal philosophy"; it is close to my heart. There are portions of the texts, such as the 31 planes, for which I have no strong affinity; these points are not really important to my heart, though they do provide an intellectual treat (how they all fit together). The things that are close to my heart are (using Buddhist terminology) kamma, rebirth, roots and the importance of an "internal perspective" rather than an "external perspective". If I am asked, "Are the 31 planes the Dhamma?", my answer is "Could be - no strong feeling." On the other hand, if I am asked, "Is the law of kamma the Dhamma?", my answer would be an emphatic, "Yes!". Victor, each of us have our relationship to Buddhism. Some were born into it, some turned to it at a time of crisis and some (like myself) discovered that it was their "own personal philosophy". Each of these people may have a different answer to your question, "how do I know what I listen to is the Dhamma?" All answers are correct (for that individual), because the path is a personal thing. Metta, Rob M :-) 26719 From: norakat147 Date: Fri Nov 7, 2003 1:15am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sarah / Reflections on Wife family, children and cats - Hi Thomas (& Sarah), --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nordwest wrote: > Dear Sarah, I think a detached attitude brings also happier families and partnerships. Clinging to partners and loved ones always brings trouble and stress. If we see everyone as a "pleasant guest" in our life, we may also have constantly more respect before them and less feeling of "to possess someone". > > We are together, and then we have to part again, this is not sad at all. It's just natural like the seasons. What is sad is a human lifetime not used to do good, and to make spiritual progress. > > Gassho, > Thomas > --- I couldn't agree more, and I have had this attitude even before encountering Dhamma. I just wish the girlfriends I meet feel likewise. They are not really bad people but they could get possesive, attached/clingy and dependent. How do we cope with or teach people like this that letting go, not clinging is the best way to be? nori 26720 From: robmoult Date: Fri Nov 7, 2003 1:39am Subject: Re: Myanmar4 - decisive support, accumulations, desirable object, kamma Hi Connie (and Sarah), --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "connie" wrote: > The inherent 'desire' of desirability has to be in the > accumulations I think, but then what about 'the beautiful'? ===== R: Sorry, Connie, the desireability is inherent in the rupa. Our feelings toward the rupa are a function of our accumulations. When there is a non-alignment between the two, there is perversion of perception. For example, a knock on the head is inherently undesireable. If a masochist experiences pleasant feeling when being knocked on the head, then this is perversion of perception. ===== > Fire > element is fire element and it's in every kalapa, so what, other than > (perverse) accumulations, makes it more desireable in a fresh flower > than a crumbled leaf when all conditioned things are dukkha? ===== R: Fire element is manifested as temperature (whatever "conceptual object" such as flower, leaf, dung, etc. that it may be associated with). If I sense a temperature that is quite close to my body temperature, then it is inherently pleasant. If I sense a temperature that is far from my body temperature ("very hot" or "very cold") then this temperature is inherently undesireable. If I experience pleasant feeling when contacting something that is "very hot" or "very cold", then this is perversion of perception. Note: I put "very hot" and "very cold" in quotes, because they should be referenced to "body temperature". ===== > Left on my > own, I'd think only the three sobhana hetu/cetasika could be inherently > desireable... not of course, to the point of clinging. ===== R: It is only rupas acting as objects of cittas that qualify as "undesireable", "desireable" and "extremely desireable". Cetasikas are not objects of cittas and they are not rupas, so they don't qualify. ===== > The fire on our > heads is only desireable insofar as it conditions wise/proper attention. ===== R: Sorry, I disagree; see my comments above - conditioning wise attention is not related to the inherent quality of the rupa. Wise attention (yoniso manisikara) is conditioned by accumulations. ===== > Someone at last night's meditation group said she didn't like being > motivated by fear/hell. ===== R: I could not agree more. Metta, Rob M :-) 26721 From: abhidhammika Date: Fri Nov 7, 2003 6:04am Subject: [dsg] Re: More Myanmar stories;-) To Nina Dear Nina How are you? You wrote: "It would feel marvellous. The more the better." in response to my statement "I would like to know what it feels like having Pyi Sayadaw's Nissaya texts on Visuddhimaggo." Yes, Nina, I agree with you as I always feel relocated to a different time and place whenever I read Pyi Sayadaw's Nissaya texts on A.t.thasaalinii. I am sure I would feel the feeling of spatial and temporal relocation when I have a chance to read Pyi Sayadaw's old Nissaya texts on Visuddhimaggo. You also asked: "But it is all in Burmese?" No, Nina, the Nissaya texts are in Pali and Burmese, usually more Pali as the Nissaya writer assumed that the reader knew Pali and began to omit Burmese terms that appeared previously (to save his time). This practice is called "peyyaala" usually indicated by the letter "pa". Before one can read a serious Nissaya text such as those on commentaries, one must have studied Pali grammar beforehand. Without the ability to parse the Pali words (the results of Sandhi, compound words and the like) and follow the syntax (at least one must be able to identify a Pali verb as a Pali verb, and a Pali noun as a Pali noun and the like), a reader would soon feel lost and lose patience and give up. As the common feature of the Nissaya texts, the Nissaya Sayadaws also digress and discuss the issues of Pali grammar either between the text or as footnotes at the bottom of the pages. These make very delicious and informative academic readings. With regards, Suan --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > I would like to know what it > feels like having Pyi Sayadaw's Nissaya texts on Visuddhimaggo. N: It would feel marvellous. The more the better. But it is all in Burmese? S: Nissaya texts are study aids for students of Pali and convenient > reference works for Pali scholars. N: If you have time it would be wonderful to hear some quotes, also on Pali list. Nina. 26722 From: Bongkojpriya Yugala Date: Fri Nov 7, 2003 6:20am Subject: Re: [dsg] Myanmar4: rupa, etc. Hello, Rob, Look forward to your visit. But first, you spoke about desirability being inherent in rupa and then gave the example of a knock on the head being inherently undesirable. It may seem to be so on the "conventional" level, but since rupa does not cognize, how can it recognize the pain (as hardness) associated with the knock on the head in the vipaka stage (akusala vipaka) of a sense door process? Only cittas and cetasikas can do that. Nor can one know what is desirable or undesirable rupa; one can only surmise that, I would think. And the accumulations are the greatest "condition" for kusala or akusala javana cittas arising in the next part of the process, as you noted. metta, Betty ________________________________________________________ > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "connie" > wrote: > > The inherent 'desire' of desirability has to be in the > > accumulations I think, but then what about 'the beautiful'? > > ===== > R: > Sorry, Connie, the desireability is inherent in the rupa. Our > feelings toward the rupa are a function of our accumulations. When > there is a non-alignment between the two, there is perversion of > perception. > > For example, a knock on the head is inherently undesireable. If a > masochist experiences pleasant feeling when being knocked on the > head, then this is perversion of perception. > > 26723 From: Date: Fri Nov 7, 2003 2:11am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Vism. XIV 32, 33 Hi, Nina (and Larry) - In a message dated 11/7/03 3:34:11 AM Eastern Standard Time, nilo@e... writes: > Hi Larry, > op 05-11-2003 23:18 schreef Larry op LBIDD@w...: > > >Larry: How does consciousness give the impression that "a person > >comes and goes, stands and sits, with the same mind"? > > > >I proposed that it was because of the fundamental sameness of > >consciousness, but perhaps this isn't right. I agree there are > >problems with this. What is your idea? > N: We do not see the impermanence, the arising and falling away of the many > cittas that succeed one another. The river seems something that stays, but > in fact there is new water streaming on all the time. > Nina. > ======================== If I may, particularly because of my "disputing" your position on contact and more generally on Abhidhamma, Nina, I would like to add my concurring comments here. Using the river analogy, even if the river consisted of nothing but water, with no mud, leaves, branches and other plant life, fish, and so on, what would be the case is the following: The wetness of the river would be a constant - one could not distinguish one river state from another on the basis of its wetness, and if one were to think of the river's wetness (analogically) as its "consciousness", one might, abstracting, say that the consciousness is a single continuing thing. But, in fact, at different times there is different water at different places, and how could the wetness of two *different* portions of water be identical (when the water is not the same)? When it is different water that is wet, the wetnesses are aspects of different things, and hence different; though indistinguishable when isolated *in thought* from the water, they, in fact, are not actually isolable from the water of which they are the wetness. So, as I see it, the knowing aspect (vi~n~nana) of any mindstate is different from the knowing aspect of another mindstate in the same way as the wetnesses of two different bits of water, while of the same *sort*, are not literally identical. Another analogy: Imagine two identical twins with indistinguishable blond(e) hair. Informally we would say they have "the same" hair color. But in saying this we do not literally mean that the hair color of one twin is, identically, the very same hair color of the other. How could it be? These are two different people, with different hair on different heads! We only say that the hair color is "the same" in the sense of mentally abstracting the hair color from the hair and treating it as a self-existing thing, when it is actually an aspect/feature of the hair, and inseparable from it. Viewing it as a thing in itself, while useful for purposes of mental analysis, if done literally is an instance of reifying. (There! I used that word again! ;-) With a river of metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 26724 From: Date: Fri Nov 7, 2003 3:30am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Myanmar4 - decisive support, accumulations, desirable object, k... Hi, Rob (and Connie) - In a message dated 11/7/03 4:49:54 AM Eastern Standard Time, rob.moult@j... writes: > R: > Sorry, Connie, the desireability is inherent in the rupa. Our > feelings toward the rupa are a function of our accumulations. When > there is a non-alignment between the two, there is perversion of > perception. > > For example, a knock on the head is inherently undesireable. If a > masochist experiences pleasant feeling when being knocked on the > head, then this is perversion of perception. > > ========================= What can it mean for desirability to be inherent in a rupa? If a knock on the head is *inherently* undesirable, then it can never be desired. That's what 'inherent' means. You somehow distinguish between being desirable and being pleasant. How do you make that distinction? Whatever is experienced as desirable is experienced as pleasant, and whatever is experienced as pleasant is, in a worldling, experienced as desirable. What can it mean to be desirable other that being experienced as pleasant? And what can it mean to be *inherently* desirable, other than the desirability of a rupa being determined by the rupa itself, being intrinsic to the rupa? It seems to me that (the sting of) a smack across the face felt by a masochist is a rupa that is pleasant and desired, whereas a smack across the face felt by a "normal" person is a rupa that is unpleasant and not desired. I don't think they should be thought of as "the same" rupa. Likewise for mental states such as humiliation - the humiliation experienced by a masochist is a pleasant state and is not the same as the humiliation felt by a non-masochist. This perspective makes vedanic taste inherent in the rupa, and it distinguishes pleasant/desirable rupas from unpleasant/undesirable rupas, even when the rupas are what are informally thought of as "the same". BTW, in the Anguttara Nikaya, in IV, 52 (Distortions of Perception), the Buddha says there are four distortions of perception, thought, and views: Holding that in the impermanent there is permanence, that in suffering there is happiness, that in what is non-self there is self, and that in the foul there is beauty. This, as I see it, pertains to sa~n~na. It deals with perceptional/recognitional errors. And note that it is not sa~n~na that conditions vedana, but vedana that conditions sa~n~na. A distortion of view is a differing from the norm due to the perversity of the sorts of objects cognized. Masochists encounter pleasant stinging sensations, which are then, of course, perceived as "good" and are craved - the greater the stinging the greater the craving, but non-masochists only encounter unpleasant stinging sensations which are then perceived as "bad" and are disliked. The kinds of rupas encountered are conditioned by our accumulations. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 26725 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Nov 7, 2003 10:50am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vis. 34 and Tiika, rupa in the suttas. Hi Larry, I am glad you ask this. op 07-11-2003 01:39 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: Vis text: > "1. That is of one kind with the characteristic of 'being molested'. > 2. It is also of two kinds when classed as (a) primary entity (bhuuta) > and (b) derived [by clinging] (upaadaaya)." Tiika: "(Molested) by cold etc. , this means by cold, heat, hunger, thirst, > etc. This is the instrumental case with the meaning of cause." > This seems to refer to the body (a concept) as rupa. Correct? N: It refers to the rupas of the body, because here it is more obvious. If we had no body we would not suffer from all those things. But I think implied are all rupas. There is a word association between ruupa and rupana, being molested. The Kindred Sayings (S. III, 86) speaks about the body being affected by cold etc. The Co explains: ruppati: troubled, struck, oppressed, broken up. Dispeller of Delusion (Co to the Book of Analysis)Ch I (p. 3): <"It is molested" therefore it is called materiality. "It is molested":[it is disturbed;] it is well-beaten; it is oppressed; it is broken is the meaning...> L: Also what does "derived [by clinging]" mean? I assume "derived" means > made up of the primary elements, but how is this done by clinging? N: Upaadaaya means: clinging, grasping, taking hold of, not letting go. Expositor II, Book II, Ch II (p 395): < 'The derivative matter of the four great essentials'- here the possessive case is in the sense of the ablative. The meaning is, matter which has proceeded in dependence on, is derived from, has not let go the four great essentials...> And Ch III 9p. 402): Thus, we should not take it in the sense of clinging, rupa cannot cling. But in the sense of dependence. Rupas arise in groups and the four great elements have to be present in each group. When there is sound, there have to be the four great elements, sound does not arise alone. Thus, solidity arises together with sound, and also cohesion, heat, motion, each performing their own function. Sound is dependent upon them, it could not arise without them. The same with visible object, and all other derived rupas, 24 in all. Rupa in the Suttas: I looked up ruupa and did some research of its use in the Suttas. Rupa is mostly used as body and as visible object, that is why we see translations as material form. However, not always. In Dialogues of the Buddha II, no.22 (D. II, 308) in the compound craving for material things (ruupata.nhaa) other material phenomena are included, namely what is seen, heard, etc. Intentions concerned with things visible, etc.: ruupasa~ncetana, preoccupation with things seen, etc: ruupavitakka. Here, ruupa is used for the material phenomena which are experienced through the senses and the mind. The rupas which are the four great elements are taught by Sariputta in the Discourse on the Elephant's Footprint, and the Buddha taught the four great elements and also the derived element of space to Rahula so that he would realize hardness etc. in the body, realize the three characteristics, and eventually know them as Nina. 26726 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Nov 7, 2003 10:50am Subject: Sayadaws of Myanmar Dear Suan, reflecting more on your impressive letter, I shall keep this for Jim and frwd to him when he is back. Do you allow me to frwd it to Pali list, the part dealing with the Sayadaws? This info should be more widely known. Nina. 26727 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Nov 7, 2003 10:50am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Myanmar4 - decisive support op 06-11-2003 09:39 schreef Sarah op sarahdhhk@y...: > connie wrote: >> C: >> Do you think all three kinds of upanissaya (decisive support or strong >> dependence)-paccaya are/function 'by way of accumulations'? (The 3 being >> decisive support of: object - arammanupanissaya, proximity - >> anantarupanissaya and natural condition - pakutapanissaya). > ..... > Like RobM said, I think accumulations’ only refers to the third, but in a > way anything is included in it. For example, in decisive support of > object, a desirable object is a strong condition for cittas and cetasikas > which are inclined towards it. So, for example, inherently desirable > rupas, such as particular tastes, may be a decisive support object’ for > attachment, but only if attachment is accumulated to want such tastes. > > I think this is why K.Sujin talks about everything being included in > pakatupanissaya, even though different conditions act in different ways. > I’m about to say more than I understand. > > Nina, may be able to add more on this too. N: I read in "Guide to Conditional Relations", p. 41: two meanings of pakata:1 done properly. 2. naturally. end quote. Then examples are given: strong confidence does not need the other two kinds of object and proximity conditions to motivate good deeds. But as to lokuttara cittas it is different: Path-consciousness has nibbana as object, here there is also object-strong dependence. And: path is related to fruition, here also proximity-strong dependence is present. Thus, the answer is not fixed, it depends on the nature of the realities involved. Nina. 26728 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Nov 7, 2003 10:50am Subject: Tiika Vis. 35 Vis. 35. Herein (a) "primary materiality" is of four kinds as the earth element, water element, fire element, and air element. Their characteristic, function, and manifestation have been given under the definition of the four elements (Ch. XI, 87, 93); but as to the proximate cause, each has the other three as its proximate cause. [444] Vis. 35. tattha bhuutaruupa.m catubbidha.m pathaviidhaatu aapodhaatu tejodhaatu vaayodhaatuuti. taasa.m lakkha.narasapaccupa.t.thaanaani catudhaatuvavatthaane vuttaani. pada.t.thaanato pana taa sabbaapi avasesadhaatuttayapada.t.thaanaa. **** words: kaama (f): sense desire, object of sense-desire. pakaara: mode, way. antara: between paaleti: to preserve vitthambeti: to extend, expand sa²ngathita: held together. avasesa, sesa: remaining Tiika 35: 35. Kaama.m catudhaatuvavatthaane vacanatthaaditopi bhuutaani vibhaavitaaneva, After he has explained the principal elements as to word meaning and so on in the definition of the four elements as objects of sense desire *, sabhaavadhammaana.m pana lakkha.naadivibhaavanaati katvaa and he has given the explanation of the characteristics and so on of these dhammas which each have their own distinct nature, vutta.m ³lakkha.narasapaccupa.t.thaanaani catudhaatuvavatthaane vuttaanii²ti. he said, ³Their characteristic, function, and manifestation have been given under the definition of the four elements². Tattha pada.t.thaanassa avuttattaa aaha ³pada.t.thaanato panaa²ti-aadi. Since he had not given the proximate cause, he said, ³as to their proximate cause and so on². (Avacana~nca tassa tassatthassa paccayatoti ettha pakaarantarena vibhaavitattaati da.t.thabba.m.) ......... Sabbaapiiti catassopi dhaatuyo. As to the expression, also all of them, this means, also the four elements. Aaposa"ngahitaaya tejonupaalitaaya vaayovitthambhitaaya eva pathaviidhaatuyaa pavatti, The element of earth proceeds because it is held together by water, maintained by fire, and distended by wind. na a~n~nathaati saa sesabhuutattayapada.t.thaanaa, evamitaraapiiti aaha ³avasesadhaatuttayapada.t.thaanaa²ti. Thus, it is not otherwise that the other great elements are its proximate cause, and therefore he said also with regard to the other elements: ²each has the other three as its proximate cause². **** English: After he has explained the principal elements as to word meaning and so on in the definition of the four elements as objects of sense desire *, and he has given the explanation of the characteristics and so on of these dhammas which each have their own distinct nature, he said, ³Their characteristic, function, and manifestation have been given under the definition of the four elements². Since he had not given the proximate cause, he said, ³as to their proximate cause and so on². .......... As to the expression, also all of them, this means, also the four elements. The element of earth proceeds because it is held together by water, maintained by fire, and distended by wind. Thus, it is not otherwise that the other (three) great elements are its proximate cause, and therefore he said also with regard to the other elements: ²each has the other three as its proximate cause². _______ * In Ch XI, they are treated under the aspect of the foulness of the body since they are objects of desire. 26729 From: shakti Date: Fri Nov 7, 2003 10:51am Subject: Re: [dsg] Glimpses of Glorious Bagan Dear Christine, Sukin and others, Finally I have had the chance to view all the photos of the Myanmar trip. I marvel at the technology of all of this. Thanks so much for posting them. I was especially happy to see the photos of Bagan, as my camera battery died there. With metta, Shakti christine_forsyth wrote: Dear Group, (and Sukin) I have added a number of photos to Sukins' Myanmar Album - of the Jedi at Pagan (photos 37 and 38) - which were sprinkled like wild flowers across the landscape and stretched to the horizon. Thanks to Jon for taking the photos from a higher level than I had the courage to climb to. Sandra's photo is only level 1 of a Jedi, I got that far:) The difficulty was that there were no handrails and it was steep and a bit crumbly. http://photos.groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/lst I quote below an excerpt from a booklet "Glimpses of Glorious Bagan" Universities Historical Research Centre, The Universities Press. Yangon. Myanmar. 1996. (from pages 1 and 2 of the introduction of about 76 pages in total.) "Bagan ... The monuments seem to overwhelm the landscape. There are about 2,000 ---snip --- metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- 26730 From: Date: Fri Nov 7, 2003 6:00am Subject: The Causes of Kamma Hi, all - I obtained the following from Nyanatiloka's dictionary: > vipáka: 'karma-result', is any karmically (morally) neutral mental > phenomenon (e.g. bodily agreeable or painful feeling, sense-consciousness, etc. ), > which is the result of wholesome or unwholesome volitional action (karma, q.v.) > through body, speech or mind, done either in this or some previous life. > Totally wrong is the belief that, according to Buddhism, everything is the > result of previous action. Never, for example, is any karmically wholesome or > unwholesome volitional action the result of former action, being in reality > itself karma. On this subject s. tittháyatana, karma, Tab. I; Fund II. Cf. A. III, > 101; Kath. 162 (Guide, p. 80). With regard to the statement "Never, for example, is any karmically wholesome or unwholesome volitional action the result of former action, being in reality itself karma," some questions come to mind. Here, when he speaks of "result," is only direct result meant, or is indirect result incuded (so that if A conditions B and B conditions C, then C is not a result only of B, but also of A)? If indirect result is included, then one has to ask: Exactly what are the conditions (all non-kammic) for the arising of a volitional action? With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 26731 From: robmoult Date: Fri Nov 7, 2003 3:00pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Myanmar4 - decisive support, accumulations, desirable object, k... Hi Howard and Connie, I had this nagging feeling that I owed you a response on this subject. If I did, I hope that this response covers the earlier questions as well. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > What can it mean for desirability to be inherent in a rupa? If a knock > on the head is *inherently* undesirable, then it can never be desired. That's > what 'inherent' means. You somehow distinguish between being desirable > and being pleasant. How do you make that distinction? Whatever is experienced > as desirable is experienced as pleasant, and whatever is experienced as > pleasant is, in a worldling, experienced as desirable. What can it mean to be > desirable other that being experienced as pleasant? And what can it mean to be > *inherently* desirable, other than the desirability of a rupa being determined by > the rupa itself, being intrinsic to the rupa? ===== R: I suspect that some of the confusion is arising because very similar English words are being used to describe different things. I am going to insert the Pali words to (hopefully) make things clearer (then again, it could add one more layer of huh???) :-) All sense objects (i.e. rupas) have an inherent characteristic that can take one of three states (see CMA p172): - anittha: undesireable - ittha: moderately desireable or desireable neutral - ati-ittha: extremely desireable This inherent characteristic arises together with the sense object. Note that when the sense object arises, the citta process is busy with a past bhavanaga citta. In other words, this inherent characteristic exists before the citta process is aware of the sense object. All cittas have an accompanying cetasika called feeling (vedana) which can take one of three states: - sukha: pleasant feeling - dukkha: unpleasant feeling - adukkhamasukha: indifferent (neutral) feeling Except in the Arahant, javana cittas have roots which determine the ethical quality of the kamma-created. There are six roots: - Lobha: desire or attachment - Dosa: aversion or hatred - Moha: hatred - Alobha: non-desire or non-attachment - Adosa: non-aversion or non-hatred - Panna: wisdom In other words, we are dealing with three distinct entities: - Inherent characterisitic of all sense objects - Feeling that arises with all cittas - Roots that arise with all javana cittas The knock on the head mentioned earlier is anittha (undesireable). It was anittha even before the citta process was aware of it (i.e. had not yet become an object of a citta). This rupa existed for at least the duration of three cittas before the sense-door adverting citta (which takes "knock on a head" as an object). During this time, the citta process involved bhavanaga cittas which take another object. The sense door adverting citta (a kiriya citta) is the first citta of the citta process to take the "knock on the head" as object. It is the inherent nature of this object (anittha / ittha / ati-ittha) which control the flow of the citta process. If the rupa is anittha, then the following sense door consciousness is "akusala vipaka". If the rupa is ittha or ati-ittha, then the following sense door consciousness is "kusala vipaka". If the object is ittha, the investigating citta that arises in the citta process will be with indifferent (neutral) feeling. If the object is ati-ittha, the investigating citta that arises in the citta process will be with pleasant feeling. After the investigating citta falls away, the determining citta (also a kiriya citta) takes the object. The type of javana citta that arises next (akusala, kusala or even kiriya for an Arahant) depends on accumulations. If the object is "knock on the head", and because of accumulations, the type of citta that arises is lobha- mula (i.e. desirous / attachment), then this "mis-alignment" is called peverversion of perception (sannavipallasa). ===== > It seems to me that (the sting of) a smack across the face felt by a > masochist is a rupa that is pleasant and desired, whereas a smack across the > face felt by a "normal" person is a rupa that is unpleasant and not desired. I > don't think they should be thought of as "the same" rupa. ===== See my notes above; did the "smack across the face" rupa not exist before it was taken as an object of a citta? Yes, it did! This is what is meant by "object pre-nascence condition". For those instants, the "smack across the face" was inherently anittha. ===== > Likewise for mental > states such as humiliation - the humiliation experienced by a masochist is a > pleasant state and is not the same as the humiliation felt by a non-masochist. > This perspective makes vedanic taste inherent in the rupa, and it distinguishes > pleasant/desirable rupas from unpleasant/undesirable rupas, even when the > rupas are what are informally thought of as "the same". > BTW, in the Anguttara Nikaya, in IV, 52 (Distortions of Perception), > the Buddha says there are four distortions of perception, thought, and views: > Holding that in the impermanent there is permanence, that in suffering there is > happiness, that in what is non-self there is self, and that in the foul there > is beauty. This, as I see it, pertains to sa~n~na. It deals with > perceptional/recognitional errors. And note that it is not sa~n~na that conditions vedana, > but vedana that conditions sa~n~na. > A distortion of view is a differing from the norm due to the > perversity of the sorts of objects cognized. Masochists encounter pleasant stinging > sensations, which are then, of course, perceived as "good" and are craved - the > greater the stinging the greater the craving, but non-masochists only encounter > unpleasant stinging sensations which are then perceived as "bad" and are > disliked. The kinds of rupas encountered are conditioned by our accumulations. Sorry, I am running out of time; I will come back to the different types of perversions (vipallasa) later. Metta, Rob M :-) 26732 From: Date: Fri Nov 7, 2003 11:09am Subject: Re: [dsg] Tiika Vis. 35 Hi, Nina (and all) - In a message dated 11/7/03 6:30:51 PM Eastern Standard Time, nilo@e... writes: > Vis. 35. Herein (a) "primary materiality" is of four kinds as the earth > element, water element, fire element, and air element. Their > characteristic, function, and manifestation have been given under the > definition of the four elements (Ch. XI, 87, 93); but as to the > proximate cause, each has the other three as its proximate cause. [444] > ============================ Supposedly all rupa is either primary or derived from primary rupa. I do not understand this. How, for example, is visual object or sound derived from earth, air, fire,and water? What does it mean for these to be derived from them, and what is the means/mechanism of such derivation? With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 26733 From: robmoult Date: Fri Nov 7, 2003 5:38pm Subject: Re: The Causes of Kamma Hi Howard, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > I obtained the following from Nyanatiloka's dictionary: > > vipáka: 'karma-result', is any karmically (morally) neutral mental > > phenomenon (e.g. bodily agreeable or painful feeling, sense- consciousness, etc. ), > > which is the result of wholesome or unwholesome volitional action (karma, q.v.) > > through body, speech or mind, done either in this or some previous life. > > Totally wrong is the belief that, according to Buddhism, everything is the > > result of previous action. Never, for example, is any karmically wholesome or > > unwholesome volitional action the result of former action, being in reality > > itself karma. On this subject s. tittháyatana, karma, Tab. I; Fund II. Cf. A. III, > > 101; Kath. 162 (Guide, p. 80). > > With regard to the statement "Never, for example, is any karmically > wholesome or unwholesome volitional action the result of former action, being in > reality itself karma," some questions come to mind. Here, when he speaks of > "result," is only direct result meant, or is indirect result incuded (so that > if A conditions B and B conditions C, then C is not a result only of B, but > also of A)? If indirect result is included, then one has to ask: Exactly what are > the conditions (all non-kammic) for the arising of a volitional action? The word of the day is.... ACCUMULATIONS!!! Here is my understanding of how it works. We can divide the sense door citta process into the following: Citta 1 - 3: Bhavanga (vipaka; result of last thought from previous existence) Citta 4: Sense door adverting (kiriya) - starts to take the rupa as object and based on the inherent desireability of the rupa, selects either "Path A" or "Path B" for the next three cittas (I chose this designation to avoid re-using words that may bring other meanings to mind). Citta 5 - 7 (Path A): If the rupa was inherently undesireable, then "Path A" is selected and the next three cittas (sense-door consciousness, receiving, investingating) will be of the type "akusala vipaka". Even though the term "akusala" is used here, these cittas have no ethical qualities because they have no roots. The term "akusala" simply designates the original type of javana that caused this citta to arise. If, in the past, there was an akusala javana citta (did something bad), then the result will have the label "akusala" attached to it, even though it has no roots (i.e. the cittas are not good or bad). Citta 5 - 7 (Path B): If the rupa was inherently desireable, then "Path B" is selected and the next three cittas are of the type "kusala vipaka". If the rupa was inherently very desireable, then "Path B" is selected but the investigating citta is accompanied by pleasant feeling rather than by indifferent feeling. Note that the sense-door consciousness that is part of "Path A" and the sense- door consciousness that is part of "Path B" have the same function and the same set of cetasikas. Citta 8: Determining (kiriya), here the two paths converge again the function of this citta is to control which direction the citta process flows after this (the kamma-creating javana cittas). The last kiriya citta we ran across (adverting) also controlled the flow of the citta process. That time, it was either "Path A" or "Path B". This time there are a lot more options. For a non-Arahant, there are 12 possible akusala paths and 8 possible kusala paths. Which of these 20 paths are selected depends on our accumulations. If we have a habit of getting angry, then there is a good chance that the object may trigger a dosa-mula path. It is important to note that the determining citta is kiriya; it does not arise because of kamma, it is functional. Note that the mind-door adverting citta in the mind-door citta process is the same as the determining citta in the sense-door citta process. If the determining of the type of javana were based on a vipaka citta, then there would be no chance for change. I believe that this is the point that Nyanatiloka is making; past kamma does not pre-destine our reaction; there is a choice (but no chooser - that's another story :-) ). Citta 9 - 15: Javana, the cittas that create future kamma. Citta 16 - 17: Registration: Vipaka, also have a "Path A" and "Path B" depending on the inherent nature of the rupa. In summary, one could say that kamma plays a big role in what happens to us but it is accumulations that control the choice of our reaction (and thereby indirectly create new kamma by acting as a condition for the arising of the javana cittas). Howard, does this make sense? Metta, Rob M :-) 26734 From: robmoult Date: Fri Nov 7, 2003 6:05pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Myanmar4: rupa, etc. Hi Betty (Howard and Connie), --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Bongkojpriya Yugala" wrote: > You spoke about desirability being > inherent in rupa and then gave the example of a knock on the head being > inherently undesirable. It may seem to be so on the "conventional" level, > but since rupa does not cognize, how can it recognize the pain (as hardness) > associated with the knock on the head in the vipaka stage (akusala vipaka) > of a sense door process? Only cittas and cetasikas can do that. Nor can one > know what is desirable or undesirable rupa; one can only surmise that, I > would think. And the accumulations are the greatest "condition" for kusala > or akusala javana cittas arising in the next part of the process, as you > noted. It would seem that Connie, Howard and yourself are having similar questions. I have recently written somewhat lenghty messages to Connie and Howard on this subject, but let me summarize here: 1. The inherent quality of anittha / ittha / ati-attha (undesireable / moderately desireable / very desireable) arises with the rupa; before a citta has even experienced the object, it is already there. As an analogy, the blue ball is inherently blue, even before an eye sees it and detects the "blueness". 2. Whereas anittha / ittha / ati-attha is a quality of the rupa, vedana (unpleasant / pleasant / indifferent) is a quality of every citta. 3. Desire (attachment) or "undesire" (aversion) are roots of kamma- creating cittas; they provide an ethical quality It is important to keep the three points above as distinct ideas. My most recent post to Howard (on kamma) goes through the details of the citta process and explains the role of the inherent anittha / ittha / ati-attha of rupa. Hope this helps and I look forward to meeing you again. I had more of Nina's BDL books printed; do you need more? Metta, Rob M :-) 26735 From: christine_forsyth Date: Fri Nov 7, 2003 8:58pm Subject: English discussions Dear Kom, Num, Betty, Sukin, and all, If the English Discussions were broadcast today - I missed it, and am a little disappointed. If it is on Saturdays at 9.00 a.m. Bangkok time, that should mean 11.00 a.m. Brisbane time, right? What a shame I didn't remember until 2.45 p.m. Bris. time. :-) How did it go? Was it broadcast, or are there still gremlins? http://www.dhammastudyandsupport.com/ metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- 26736 From: Star Kid Date: Fri Nov 7, 2003 9:25pm Subject: buddhism Q's Hi James, so living in Eygpt does seem quite different. Are there rules in Buddhism like the Islamic ones such as not being allowed to believe in other religion? I know Islam and Christianity sprang out of Judaism. Does Buddhism have any relationship with other religions? What are the gods in Buddhism (if they have any)? Does the ying yang have to do with Buddhism? Well,enough questions for now. Hilary 26737 From: Star Kid Date: Fri Nov 7, 2003 9:28pm Subject: Reply to Jimmy James: Thank you for the letter you sent me last week. I learnt something new from your last letter, including how to deal with teachers and friends, and how to not annoy the teachers. Anyway, can you teach me how to handle the homework and the projects? The teachers in my school SUCKS and they are VERY ANNOYING! Especially, my math teacher sucks the most. He dares to give us homework when there is a social studies presention, a Chinese journal and a math test next week. Is he an idiot, seriously? Anyway, can any of your Buddhist ideas help solve this problem? Looking forward to your reply. Philip Chui 26738 From: Date: Fri Nov 7, 2003 4:44pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Myanmar4 - decisive support, accumulations, desirable object, k... Hi, Rob (and Connie) - In a message dated 11/7/03 11:16:11 PM Eastern Standard Time, rob.moult@j... writes: > > Hi Howard and Connie, > > I had this nagging feeling that I owed you a response on this > subject. If I did, I hope that this response covers the earlier > questions as well. > ============================ Thank you for the detailed reply. (I won't copy it here due to its length.) It seems to me that from what you wrote that rupas come in three varieties: desirable, undesirable, and neutral, and that they lead, lockstep, to feelings that are respectively pleasant, unpleasant, and neutral. I also don't see what else there is to so-called desirability etc except their leading to these respective feelings, and thus I consider the distinction between being desirable and being pleasant, etc, as about as close to empty as anything can get. What is undesirable is what will be felt as unpleasant, etc. It also seems to me that you are saying that the Abhidhamma allows for the possibility of one craving what is felt as unpleasant, and hating what is felt as pleasant. I think that is contrary both to what the Buddha taught in the suttas, and contrary to experience. If we seem to crave an unpleasant feeling, it is not really that feeling we crave, but, another pleasant feeling such as for example the feeling of satisfaction that arises due to punishing ourself, because we feel unworthy. (Sometimes it feels good to feel bad!) I believe that if we watch closely enough, we will see that craving is *always* for the pleasant, and aversion *always* for the unpleasant, and when it seem otherwise, we are mistaking what is actually being felt as pleasant or unpleasant. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 26739 From: Date: Fri Nov 7, 2003 5:19pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Causes of Kamma Hi, Rob - In a message dated 11/8/03 12:52:40 AM Eastern Standard Time, rob.moult@j... writes: > > Hi Howard, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > > I obtained the following from Nyanatiloka's dictionary: > >>vipáka: 'karma-result', is any karmically (morally) neutral > mental > >>phenomenon (e.g. bodily agreeable or painful feeling, sense- > consciousness, etc. ), > >>which is the result of wholesome or unwholesome volitional > action (karma, q.v.) > >>through body, speech or mind, done either in this or some > previous life. > >>Totally wrong is the belief that, according to Buddhism, > everything is the > >>result of previous action. Never, for example, is any karmically > wholesome or > >>unwholesome volitional action the result of former action, being > in reality > >>itself karma. On this subject s. tittháyatana, karma, Tab. I; > Fund II. Cf. A. III, > >>101; Kath. 162 (Guide, p. 80). > > > > With regard to the statement "Never, for example, is any > karmically > >wholesome or unwholesome volitional action the result of former > action, being in > >reality itself karma," some questions come to mind. Here, when he > speaks of > >"result," is only direct result meant, or is indirect result > incuded (so that > >if A conditions B and B conditions C, then C is not a result only > of B, but > >also of A)? If indirect result is included, then one has to ask: > Exactly what are > >the conditions (all non-kammic) for the arising of a volitional > action? > > The word of the day is.... ACCUMULATIONS!!! > > ========================= Rob, what exactly are the habits and tendencies that we call "accumulations"? What is it that lead to these habits? It seems to me that much, if not all, of what ultimately leads to our habits are prior volitional actions. And thus, current volitional actions conditioned by accumulations are, in fact, ultimately conditioned by previous, oft repeated, volitional actions. This is contrary to what Nyanatiloka says, and, to the position expressed in Abhidhamma. But it appears to me to be exactly the way things are. Has the Buddha said otherwise in the suttas? With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 26740 From: Sarah Date: Fri Nov 7, 2003 10:30pm Subject: Re: [dsg] English discussions Hi All (& Kom), Christine’s message has prompted me to say a little more: --- christine_forsyth wrote: > If the English Discussions were broadcast today - I missed it, and am > a little disappointed. > If it is on Saturdays at 9.00 a.m. Bangkok time, ... .... The group from California including Jack and Kom, have provided the equipment and made it possible for both the Thai and English talks and discussions led by A.Sujin in Bangkok to be broadcast by internet It was being tested out (as I think Jon mentioned) when we were there. (Chris, I still have an ‘image’ of the look of horror on your face as Betty casually informed us we were about to be broadcast round the world after I’d been encouraging you not to feel hesitant about asking your Qs;-)) It’s all in infant stage experimentation. Kom, Jack and others have also set up the new website for the Foundation which Chris just gave the link for: http://www.dhammastudyandsupport.com/ .... I know Kom’s been very busy with these projects and travels. The website’s very accessible (even for Mac users) and with C’s reminder, I just took another look and see a lot has been added now, including ‘Conditions’: List of Books http://www.dhammastudyandsupport.com/Framesetbooks.htm Conditions http://www.dhammastudyandsupport.com/book/Conditions/Framesetbooks.html I think the instructions for listening to the English and Thai talks are on the website and latest information about this should be there as well. Later, people will be able to participate too. Kom, if you’re reading this post, anumodana and please add any other details and if anyone listens to the discussions, I hope they’ll share any feedback or comments with us. Metta, Sarah ====== 26741 From: robmoult Date: Fri Nov 7, 2003 11:40pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Myanmar4 - decisive support, accumulations, desirable object, k... Hi Howard (and Connie); --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > It seems to me that from what you wrote that rupas come in three > varieties: desirable, undesirable, and neutral, and that they lead, lockstep, to > feelings that are respectively pleasant, unpleasant, and neutral. ===== R: Sorry Howard, the three types of rupas are undesireable, moderately desireable and very desireable. Sorry again Howard, there is (almost) no relationship between type of rupa and feeling. Irrespective of the type of rupa, sense-door adverting citta, sense consciousness (except body sense), receiving citta and determining citta are accompanied by indifferent feeling. However (this the "almost" above), there is a type of investigating citta that is accompanied by pleasant feeling and type of citta arises because the object is "very desireable" (ati-ittha). When we look at the chart of cittas, we will see that there are two types of sense-door cittas, two types of receiving cittas, and three types of investigating cittas. They are grouped under the heading of "akusala vipaka" (i.e. the resultant of past bad actions) and "kusala vipaka" (i.e. the result of past good actions). In a given citta process, the type of vipaka citta (akusala / kusala) which arises is determined by the intrinsic nature of the rupa. ===== > I also don't > see what else there is to so-called desirability etc except their leading to > these respective feelings, and thus I consider the distinction between being > desirable and being pleasant, etc, as about as close to empty as anything can > get. What is undesirable is what will be felt as unpleasant, etc. ===== R: Consider a smell that enters through the nose door. As a rupa, this smell will have an inherent characteristic of undesireable, moderately desireable or very desireable. Imagine that this smell is undesireable. The functional adverting citta which takes this object will be accompanied by indifferent feeling. Because it is undesireable, the next citta will be an akusala vipaka nose door consciousness, also accompanied by an indiffent feeling. Next will be an akusala vipaka receiving and then an akusala vipaka investigating citta. Both of these cittas will be accompanied by indifferent feeling. The functional determining citta will be accompanied by indifferent feeling. Based on your ACCUMULATIONS (there's that word again! :-) ), there are a number of possible outcomes: - Lobha-mula citta (may be accompanied by pleasant or indifferent feeling): this would be a perversion of perception - Dosa-mula citta (always accompanied by unpleasant mental feeling) - Moha-mula citta (always accompanied by indifferent feeling) - Kusala citta (may be accompanied by pleasant or indifferent feeling) - Kiriya citta (may be accompanied by pleasant or indifferent feeling): option only available if your are an Arahant ===== > It also seems to me that you are saying that the Abhidhamma allows for > the possibility of one craving what is felt as unpleasant, and hating what is > felt as pleasant. I think that is contrary both to what the Buddha taught in > the suttas, and contrary to experience. If we seem to crave an unpleasant > feeling, it is not really that feeling we crave, but, another pleasant feeling > such as for example the feeling of satisfaction that arises due to punishing > ourself, because we feel unworthy. (Sometimes it feels good to feel bad!) I > believe that if we watch closely enough, we will see that craving is *always* for > the pleasant, and aversion *always* for the unpleasant, and when it seem > otherwise, we are mistaking what is actually being felt as pleasant or unpleasant. One who has perversion of perception can crave for something that is intrinsically undesireable (pleasant is associated with a citta, not a rupa). Sorry, my kids are chasing me off the Internet so that they can do their homework. Metta, Rob M :-) 26742 From: robmoult Date: Fri Nov 7, 2003 11:46pm Subject: [dsg] Re: The Causes of Kamma Hi Howard, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Rob, what exactly are the habits and tendencies that we call > "accumulations"? What is it that lead to these habits? It seems to me that much, if not > all, of what ultimately leads to our habits are prior volitional actions. And > thus, current volitional actions conditioned by accumulations are, in fact, > ultimately conditioned by previous, oft repeated, volitional actions. This is > contrary to what Nyanatiloka says, and, to the position expressed in > Abhidhamma. But it appears to me to be exactly the way things are. Has the Buddha said > otherwise in the suttas? ===== R: I am in the process of writing a mini-essay on the subject of accumulations and I intend to get it reviewed by K. Sujin next week (if I have the chance to meet her). I can guarantee you that I will post it on DSG when compelete. In a nutshell, my understanding is that accumulations are the product of oft-repeated volitional actions. Where does Nyanatiloka say something different? Metta, Rob M :-) 26743 From: kenhowardau Date: Sat Nov 8, 2003 0:11am Subject: Re: Pigs eating dung Hi Christine and Rob M, The intrinsic pleasantness and unpleasantness of sense objects is a sticking point with a lot of people when they first think about it. But is it any different from all the other intrinsic qualities of paramattha dhammas? For example, what makes kusala kamma kusala and akusala kamma, akusala? In conventional daily life there is always disagreement over who was in the right, who was in the wrong and whether a person 'really meant any harm' etc. -- even more so than over the pleasantness or unpleasantness of pig poo and lilies, I would think. Other intrinsic qualities include the rightness of right understanding and the wrongness of wrong understanding. Imagine the mess we'd be in if these things were a matter of personal opinion. :-) Kind regards, Ken H > > Sorry to say I > > still don't see that any object can be inherently/intrinsically > > pleasant or unpleasant. Nor that the standard measure should be > what > > any particular species prefers. Is it possible that people are > > ignoring what they actually experience in daily life, and what > they > > can deduce from it by ordinary commonsense, while trying to force > > experiences to fit whatever the commentaries say? > > Anyway - I expect there isn't anymore that can be said - maybe I > > should just concentrate on the suttas, ordinary language, ordinary > > stories? > > I had been wrestling with this issue (intrinsic quality of rupa) in > the back the back of my mind for a couple of years. > > For me, the breakthrough came when my engineering mind analyzed the > sense door citta process. In this citta process, after the sense- 26744 From: mmlwin Date: Sat Nov 8, 2003 1:08am Subject: Special News Item - Dr Mehn Tin Mon visiting London Special News Item - Dr Mehn Tin Mon in London Dear Dhamma Friends, The distinguished teacher, Sayagyi Dr. U Mehn Tin Mon of Myanmar (Burma) is visiting London shortly (8th to 16th November) at the invitation of Tisarana Vihara. Sayagyi is the author of "The Essence of Buddha Abhidhamma" and many publications on Buddhism. Currently he teaches at the International Buddhist Missionary University, Kaba- aye, Yangon as visiting professor in Samatha Patipatti. (Brief Biography below) Should you have any specific queries on Abhidhamma and Samatha meditation, I will try to get the answers from him though he has very tight schedule which includes talks and short meditation course. Please post your questions to Triplegem Group ASAP http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Triplegem General Guidelines on 'Questions asked' - Do not ask on issues for which you can find answers easily elsewhere. - The question should be short and precise. Do not expect replies immediately, but these will be posted back to this forum in due course when available. There is no guarantee that all the questions will be answered. Best Wishes, Dr. Maung M Lwin, Organiser/Moderator at Triplegem Group http://www.nibbana.com -------------------------------------- *** Brief Biography of Dr Mehn Tin Mon *** He was born in kamawet village, Mudon township, Mon State. Union of Myanmar, on January 13, 1934. His parents were U Yaw In and Daw Sein Tan who were devout Buddhists. They belonged to the Mon race and made their living by farming. Mehm Tin Mon attended Kamawet Primary School and Mudon State High School where he topped his class every year. In the Bachelor of Science Examination held in 1955, he stood first with distinctions in Physics, Chemistry and Pure Mathematics. Again he was awarded a University gold medal called Esoof Bimiah Gold Medal. In 1957 he went to the United States of America to study at the University of Illinois on a State Scholarship sponsored by the Government of the Union of Myanmar. Here also he was awarded the University Fellowship for two consecutive years for his outstanding scholastic record. He gained the Master of Science Degree in1958 and the Doctorate Degree in 1960. He served his country for more than 36 years from 1956 to 1992 working as Lecturer and Head of Department of Chemistry in several Institutes and finally as Professor of Chemistry in the University of Mawlamyine (Moulmein). He retired from Professorship on December 1, 1992. During his service to the State, he headed the Buddhist Association of the Institute of Medicine (I), the Buddhist Association of the Institute of Education and the Buddhist Association of Mawlamyine (Moulmein) University. He also served as Secretary and later as President of the Central Buddhist Association of Universities and Institutes in Yangon from 1983 to 1986. He succeeded in raising funds and building the beautiful two-storeyed Dhammayone (Community Hall for religious purposes) and the sacred Shrine (Pagoda) in the University of Mawlamyine. Dr. Tin Mon also excelled in religious examinations. He stood first in the Abhidhamma Examination (Ordinary Level) in 1981. He also stood first in the Abhidhamma Examination (Honours Level) in 1983. Again in 1984 he stood first in the Visuddhi Magga Examination. These examinations are held annually in Myanmar by the Department of Religious Affairs. Dr. Tin Mon has written over thirty books on education as well as on Buddhism. He travelled throughout Myanmar deliverng lectures on Buddhism and conducting short intensive classes of Abhidhamma. He was awarded the title of Saddhamma Jotakadhaja by the Government of the Union of Myanfliat in 1994 for his outstanding contribution to the propagation of Buddhism. Dr. Tin Mon was appointed as an Adviser to the Ministry of Religious Affairs on August 1, 1993, and he has been serving the State in this capacity ever since. He teaches at the International Buddhist Missionary University, Kaba-aye, Yangon as visiting professor in Samatha Patipatti. The students attending the diploma and degree courses come from abroad. ( http://www.nibbana.com/univsity.htm ) - end - 26745 From: Sukin Date: Sat Nov 8, 2003 2:05am Subject: Re: [dsg] English discussions Hi Christine and Sarah, We were having difficulties getting the thing started. There was some confusion and finally we decided against the idea of broadcasting the English discussions. Ivan came up with the information that unless the user had special 'fast' lines, there will be many problems and would turn people away from using the service after a while. He thought that it was O.K. for the Thais living abroad who liked to get together for discussions any way, that they could pool in to get these special lines. So after considering the matter, K. Sujin decided that it would be better to limit the service to Thai discussions only. So now the regular English discussions is also back to the afternoon. Metta, Sukin. ----- Original Message ----- From: "christine_forsyth" To: Sent: Saturday, November 08, 2003 11:58 AM Subject: [dsg] English discussions > Dear Kom, Num, Betty, Sukin, and all, > > If the English Discussions were broadcast today - I missed it, and am > a little disappointed. > If it is on Saturdays at 9.00 a.m. Bangkok time, that should mean > 11.00 a.m. Brisbane time, right? What a shame I didn't remember > until 2.45 p.m. Bris. time. :-) How did it go? Was it broadcast, or > are there still gremlins? > http://www.dhammastudyandsupport.com/ > > metta and peace, > Christine > ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- 26746 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sat Nov 8, 2003 2:47am Subject: Re: Pigs eating dung Hi KenH, Silly as it seems, the whole thing is getting to me. Isn't one of the catch cries of Abhidhamma "See for yourself whether something is so or not". Now it seems that we are being told "Believe what is written, I know it doesn't match what you have seen for yourself, but just accept it." Unless Kusala and Akusala have lost their meaning too, I do know pretty much that anything based on greed, hate and delusion is akusala kamma, and that anything based on non-greed, non-hate, and non-delusion is kusala kamma. Pig Dung - like its human excremental counterpart - is simply the end result of what goes in one end of the digestive system (hopefully the top end), is processed, has nutrients extracted, and passes out the other end. I don't think we are debating personal opinions of the pleasantness or otherwise of pig dung. I'd be quite happy to accept that opinions differ (even between pigs). I personally don't find the odour of pig dung attractive. But I don't demand that everyone (or every pig) feel the same way. I have no knowledge of the 'feel' of pig dung, or the 'taste' of pig dung, and I've never 'heard' it make a sound, but I don't 'think' it looks too bad compared to, say, elephant dung. (Apologies to any elephants I've offended). But what I find unbelievable is that pig dung has 'intrinsic' (belonging to the basic nature of the thing) unpleasantness. Anymore than coal or hen feathers have. Does this mean that the dung beetle, the earth worm, any passing flies, myself, and any pig dung afficionados, all have wrong view? :-) metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > Hi Christine and Rob M, > > The intrinsic pleasantness and unpleasantness of sense > objects is a sticking point with a lot of people when > they first think about it. But is it any different from > all the other intrinsic qualities of paramattha dhammas? > For example, what makes kusala kamma kusala and akusala > kamma, akusala? In conventional daily life there is > always disagreement over who was in the right, who was in > the wrong and whether a person 'really meant any harm' > etc. -- even more so than over the pleasantness or > unpleasantness of pig poo and lilies, I would think. > > Other intrinsic qualities include the rightness of right > understanding and the wrongness of wrong understanding. > Imagine the mess we'd be in if these things were a matter > of personal opinion. :-) > > Kind regards, > Ken H 26747 From: robmoult Date: Sat Nov 8, 2003 2:58am Subject: Re: Pigs eating dung Hi Ken H, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > The intrinsic pleasantness and unpleasantness of sense > objects is a sticking point with a lot of people when > they first think about it. But is it any different from > all the other intrinsic qualities of paramattha dhammas? > For example, what makes kusala kamma kusala and akusala > kamma, akusala? In conventional daily life there is > always disagreement over who was in the right, who was in > the wrong and whether a person 'really meant any harm' > etc. -- even more so than over the pleasantness or > unpleasantness of pig poo and lilies, I would think. > > Other intrinsic qualities include the rightness of right > understanding and the wrongness of wrong understanding. > Imagine the mess we'd be in if these things were a matter > of personal opinion. :-) This was a sticking point with me for a long time (as was "free will"). As I look back, I think (at least in my case) that I really had a hard time accepting the quality of a rupa is not up to ME; just as I had a hard time accepting that decisions were not made by a ME (free will). Intrinsic qualities of rupa are opposed to self- view. Metta, Rob M :-) 26748 From: robmoult Date: Sat Nov 8, 2003 3:17am Subject: Inherent characteristics of rupa Hi Christine, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Silly as it seems, the whole thing is getting to me. Isn't one of > the catch cries of Abhidhamma "See for yourself whether something is > so or not". > Now it seems that we are being told "Believe what is written, I know > it doesn't match what you have seen for yourself, but just accept it." > Unless Kusala and Akusala have lost their meaning too, I do know > pretty much that anything based on greed, hate and delusion is > akusala kamma, and that anything based on non-greed, non-hate, and > non-delusion is kusala kamma. ====== I am truly sorry that this is disturbing you. It matches perfectly with my daily experience; the text has helped me put my experience into a new context. Perhaps my explanations have been too technical (I am an engineer) and confused rather than clarified. Feel free to put this topic aside for now and come back to it later. I have changed the title (no more talk about pig dung). Pig dung is an example given in the commentary, it is not a rupa. Let me go through the explanation without referring to the citta process and using temperature and smell as examples of rupas. Rupa #1 is a temperature, very close to body temperature; this rupa has an intrinsic quality of "moderately desireable"; only somebody with a perversion of perception would not agree Rupa #2 is a temperature, far away from body temperature (i.e. very hot or very cold); this rupa has an intrinsic quality of "undesireable"; only somebody with a perversion of perception would not agree Rupa #3 is a smell of rotten eggs (hydrogen sulfide to be precise); this rupa has an intrinsic quality of "undesireable"; only somebody with a perversion of perception would not agree Rupa #4 is a smell of freshly baked bread; this rupa has an intrinsic quality of "moderately desireable" (perhaps even "very desireable"); only somebody with a perversion of perception would not agree In the Dispeller of Delusion, they use the example of Nibbana as an object; this object has an intrinsic quality of "very desireable"; only somebody with a perversion of perception would not agree ===== > Does this mean that the dung beetle, the earth worm, > any passing flies, myself, and any pig dung afficionados, all have > wrong view? ===== The dung beetle, the earth worm, any passing flies, and any pig dung afficionados all have perversion of perception (perversion of view is another thing). Considering that it is delusion that gets one born into the animal realm, does this sound implausible? Metta, Rob M :-) 26749 From: Sarah Date: Sat Nov 8, 2003 3:19am Subject: Re: [dsg] dhamma urgency to do good Hi Molly, Thank you for your quote and link which I’ve only just looked at: --- Molly wrote: > http://www.webcom.com/imcuk/ledi/MANUAL10.html RobM was just mentioning about planes of existence. I think, as with any other aspect of dhamma, it depends how these are considered as to whether there is any value on reflecting on the details. From your link at the beginning of the page, I just read: “All beings who drift and circulate in the long and beginningless round of rebirths called samsara rarely encounter a Buddha Sasana. They do not encounter a Buddha Sasana during the space of even a hundred thousand world-cycles. They do not get the opportunity of meeting a Buddha Sasana even once though an infinite number of world-cycles elapse. The number of existences and the number of world-cycles in which they have been afflicted by evils and errors predominate. Hence, in the mental make-up of a being, there are at all times an infinite number of kammas that can result in that being being cast in the Avici hell. In the same way, there are at all times an infinite number of kamma that can result in that being being cast in the Sanjiva and the rest of the other hells,[2] or in that being being reborn in the various kinds of peta, asurakaya, and animal existences.” **** Reading these words can be a condition for fear or other kinds of aversion, for disbelief, for wise reflection about the rarity of human life or for moments of awareness of realities. It just depends on conditions;-) Molly, I meant to welcome you before to DSG, but was waiting to look at the link. Can I persuade you to share a little about yourself, such as where you live and a little more about your interest in Buddhism? Thanks again for joining us. With metta, Sarah ======= 26750 From: Sarah Date: Sat Nov 8, 2003 4:16am Subject: Re: [dsg] Special News Item - Dr Mehn Tin Mon visiting London Dear Dr.Lwin, Welcome also to DSG. I believe this is your first message, though I remember RobertK forwarding a very helpful one on Abhidhamma a long time ago. Thank you also for informing us of the following and giving further details: --- mmlwin wrote: > Special News Item - Dr Mehn Tin Mon in London ..... I’m interested to know where the Tisarana Vihara in London is as I just can’t place it for now. It’s well over 20 years since I lived in London now. I used to have a lot of contact at the Chiswick Vihara when Ven Sadhatissa was there and less contact at the Thai temple at Wimbledon and a couple of others. I didn’t have any Burmese contact, I’m afraid. I’d also be interested to know where you live in London and how long you’ve been there and whether there is a large community from Myanmar. As you’ve probably read, some of us have just returned from a trip to this special country. .... > Should you have any specific queries on Abhidhamma and Samatha > meditation, I will try to get the answers from him though he has > very tight schedule which includes talks and short meditation > course. <...> > Do not expect replies immediately, but these will be posted back to > this forum in due course when available. There is no guarantee that > all the questions will be answered. .... As you’re a member of this group, I think it would be more helpful for us to post any questions here for you to convey to Dr Mehn Tin Mon. Thank you for kindly offering to share the replies with us here as well. This way we can all benefit from his knowledge and discuss any responses further. In appreciation of all your hard work for spreading the Dhamma and for your helpful website www.nibbana.com. Anumodana. With metta, Sarah ======== 26751 From: Star Kid Date: Sat Nov 8, 2003 4:28am Subject: Thankyou for teaching me about the teachings of Buddhism! Dear James, Thankyou for the reply. From all of your replies, I've learnt alot of things. I've learnt that the Buddha does not believe in luck, or in any objects, the 5 teachings of kamma, Don't lie;Don't steal;Don't kill; Don't drink alcohol or take drugs; don't commit adultery, and more. Thankyou once again! For teaching me things about Buddhism. Metta, Sandy 26752 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Nov 8, 2003 4:48am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Concentration and samatha Victor --- yu_zhonghao wrote: > Hi Jon, ... > It is good that we have come to an accord in understanding that > something in the phrase "or to something more peaceful than that" > pertains to higher jhanas or higher level of samatha, but not > insight/vipassana. We were in agreement for a short time ;-)). When I made my comment agreeing with you on this I had seen Nina's post with the PTS translation of the commentary ('jhaana') but not her later post (No. 26359) with her own translation ('jhaana or path'). Bhikkhu Bodhi's note mentions no source for the view he expresses (jhaana). As you will recall, my initial 'guess' was enlightenment, so the commentary as translated by Nina makes sense to me. Can I persuade you to change your position on this, so that we can still be in agreement? Jon http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/26359: Com. A~n~na.m vaa tato santataranti tato jhaanadvayato santatara.m a~n~na.m uparijhaanadvaya~nceva maggadvaya~nca. As to the expression something else more peaceful than that, this means: more peaceful than the two (stages of) jhaana are the two higher jhanas and the two Paths. A little later in the sutta the "or to something more peaceful than that" passage occurs again, the com. to that is: A~n~na.m vaa tato santataranti idha upari jhaanadvaya.m ceva cattaaro ca maggaa adhippetaa. As to the expression something more peaceful than that, this means: here are meant the two higher jhanas and the four Paths. Nina 26753 From: abhidhammika Date: Sat Nov 8, 2003 5:03am Subject: Re: Sayadaws of Myanmar: To Nina Dear Nina Of course, please feel free to forward the information to Pali list as well as to Jim. And, I also do not forget your request to create a sample of Nissaya text with English for you. If you would like to see a particular passage of Pali turned into a Nissaya text, please let me know, either by giving me the reference preferrably with a Section number rather than a page number, or an original Pali passage. With regards, Suan http://www.bodhiology.org --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: Dear Suan, reflecting more on your impressive letter, I shall keep this for Jim and frwd to him when he is back. Do you allow me to frwd it to Pali list, the part dealing with the Sayadaws? This info should be more widely known. Nina. 26754 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Nov 8, 2003 5:17am Subject: Re: [dsg] Act of consciousness Larry --- LBIDD@w... wrote: > Jon: '"Sorry, I'm not with you. What do you mean by 'the > consciousness of consciousness'?" > > Hi Jon, > > Consciousness as object of consciousness, distinguished from its > object > and accompanying cetasikas. I believe consciousness is the same > regardless of object, cetasikas, sphere, plane and possibly (?) > function. Am I understanding this correctly? ... All moments of consciousness (citta) have both unique, individual characteristics as well as characteristics in common with other dhammas, including characteristics that are common to other moments of consciousness, characteristics that are common to other namas, and characteristics that are common to all other conditioned dhammas (nama or rupa). > ... When consciousness (A) is the > object of consciousness (B) is the object of A included with A as > object of B? Or would that make two objects? You ask what is known/experienced when a citta (i.e., the immediately fallen away citta, 'citta A') becomes the object of the succeeding citta ('citta B'). I think the answer would depend on the level of panna that accompanies citta B but, as I understand it, there can be no question of citta B experiencing both citta A and the object of citta A at the same moment. > ... If the object of A is not included, > then can you describe this consciousness of consciousness? > Doesn't this mean the object consciousness is arising without an > object itself? > If consciousness can't be distinguished from its object how do > we know they are two, not one? Let me know if you want more of this > spaghetti. Citta B accompanied by awareness and panna could see the characteristic of citta A as a dhamma that experiences an object (i.e., is a naama). I don't know if this helps untangle the spaghetti.;-)) Jon 26755 From: Date: Sat Nov 8, 2003 2:35am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Myanmar4 - decisive support, accumulations, desirable object, k... Hi, Rob - In a message dated 11/8/03 4:52:14 AM Eastern Standard Time, rob.moult@j... writes: > R: > Consider a smell that enters through the nose door. As a rupa, this > smell will have an inherent characteristic of undesireable, > moderately desireable or very desireable. > ------------------------------------------------------ Howard: Okay, Rob. Exactly what does it *mean* to be desirable? Desirable by what standard? So far, 'desirable' seems to be only a word. ----------------------------------------------------- Imagine that this smell is > > undesireable. The functional adverting citta which takes this object > will be accompanied by indifferent feeling. Because it is > undesireable, the next citta will be an akusala vipaka nose door > consciousness, also accompanied by an indiffent feeling. Next will > be an akusala vipaka receiving and then an akusala vipaka > investigating citta. Both of these cittas will be accompanied by > indifferent feeling. The functional determining citta will be > accompanied by indifferent feeling. Based on your ACCUMULATIONS > (there's that word again! :-) ), there are a number of possible > outcomes: > ============================ In this case, the only effect of so-called undesirability seems to be some indifferent mindstates along the way. Can "desirable" rupas also lead to indifferent mindstates, and then, finally, accumulations set in to determine the ultimate affective response. If yes, then that would make desirability a straw man, both in well defined nature and in significant effect. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 26756 From: Date: Sat Nov 8, 2003 2:41am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Causes of Kamma Hi, Rob - In a message dated 11/8/03 5:14:28 AM Eastern Standard Time, rob.moult@j... writes: > ===== > R: > I am in the process of writing a mini-essay on the subject of > accumulations and I intend to get it reviewed by K. Sujin next week > (if I have the chance to meet her). I can guarantee you that I will > post it on DSG when compelete. > > In a nutshell, my understanding is that accumulations are the > product of oft-repeated volitional actions. Where does Nyanatiloka > say something different? > > ============================= Why that is exactly MY understanding as well! Here's the problem: You gave acumulations as condition for kamma, and here you agree that accumulations are the product of oft-repeated volitional actions. This then makes kamma, derivatively, conditioned by prior kamma! But Nyanatiloka writes "Never, for example, is any karmically wholesome or unwholesome volitional action the result of former action, being in reality itself karma." This is an explicit contradiction. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 26757 From: Date: Sat Nov 8, 2003 3:19am Subject: Re: [dsg] Inherent characteristics of rupa Hi, Rob (and Christine) - In a message dated 11/8/03 6:24:05 AM Eastern Standard Time, rob.moult@j... writes: > In the Dispeller of Delusion, they use the example of Nibbana as an > object; this object has an intrinsic quality of "very desireable"; > only somebody with a perversion of perception would not agree > -------------------------------------------------- Howard: For one who has not "experienced" nibbana, only the *idea* of nibbana might seem appealing. For one who experiences nibbana, desire, and hence desirability, does not apply. --------------------------------------------------- > > ===== > > >Does this mean that the dung beetle, the earth worm, > >any passing flies, myself, and any pig dung afficionados, all have > >wrong view? > > ===== > > The dung beetle, the earth worm, any passing flies, and any pig dung > afficionados all have perversion of perception (perversion of view > is another thing). > --------------------------------------------------- Howard: Certainly not. Using a pragmatic analysis, pig dung - actually the experiences associated with pig dung - is quite desirable, properly so, for the dung beetle. The rupas experienced by the dung beetle are not the same rupas experienced by us. Why in the world should we assume they are? ---------------------------------------------------- Considering that it is delusion that gets one > > born into the animal realm, does this sound implausible? > > ============================= With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 26758 From: rjkjp1 Date: Sat Nov 8, 2003 9:21am Subject: Re: Pigs eating dung --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" wrote: > Hi Ken H, > > ---would think. > > > > Other intrinsic qualities include the rightness of right > > understanding and the wrongness of wrong understanding. > > Imagine the mess we'd be in if these things were a matter > > of personal opinion. :-) > > This was a sticking point with me for a long time (as was "free > will"). As I look back, I think (at least in my case) that I really > had a hard time accepting the quality of a rupa is not up to ME; > just as I had a hard time accepting that decisions were not made by > a ME (free will). Intrinsic qualities of rupa are opposed to self- > view. > > Metta, __________ Dear RobM, I was hoping you would see this. Earlier you wrote that you thought this point unrelated to practice. However true practice is the giving up of the idea of self and this point is very tied up with the nature of paramatha dhammas as Ken explains so well. There are only momentary realities with their own intrinsic qualities – and then because of ignorance papanca grows into all sorts of theories and non-theories. The truth is just in the moment where surely this aspect of the Dhamma becomes clearer. In the Salayatanasamyutta 35:135 (p1207 Bodhi translation) "I have seen, bhikkhus, the hell named 'Contact's sixfold base'. There whatever form one sees with the eye is undesirable, never desirable; unlovely, disagreaable. Whatever sound..whatever taste..whatever odour.. "endquote And then the Buddha says that he has seen heavenly realms where the converse is true: whatever is seen, heard etc is agreeable etc. We live in the human realm where both agreeable and disagreeable objects experienced due to the nature of this plane. RobertK 26759 From: rjkjp1 Date: Sat Nov 8, 2003 9:58am Subject: Re: Pigs eating dung --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Isn't one of > the catch cries of Abhidhamma "See for yourself whether something is > so or not". > > > Now it seems that we are being told "Believe what is written, I know > it doesn't match what you have seen for yourself, but just accept it." > > Pig Dung - like its human excremental counterpart - is simply the end > result of what goes in one end of the digestive system (hopefully the > top end), is processed, has nutrients extracted, and passes out the > other end. But what I find > unbelievable is that pig dung has 'intrinsic' (belonging to the > basic nature of the thing) unpleasantness. =========== Dear Christine, I think I don't have much concern over whether anyone believes anything in the Abhidhamma or commentaries or the suttas. If I think there are people who might benefit I sometimes quote from them but if anyone doesn't agree it is fine with me. Dhamma is not to be forced on anyone, it is a gift of extraordinary value and should be only be given with great reverence. The ancient monks wanted to help with simple examples so that the nature of rupa and nama can be better understood. Most people can see that excrement has an unpleasant odour. However in another section of the scritures it is noted that if one feeds on perfumed food then the odour could be pleasant. Likewise in the case of the touch sensation while the excrement is still soft and warm it is easy to see that the experience is kusala vipaka through the bodysense. However if it dries out and becomes hard then the experience through the bodysense is likely to be akusala vipaka . Because in so many places the Abhdidhamma details that in the ultimate sense there are only nama and rupa , ultimate realities, when the commentaries used the example of pig excrement these aspects were well understood by the listeners. However to explain Dhamma concepts such as pig excrement are very helpful to the one who can understand. The Abhidhammattha Vibhavani (Book 8) distinguishes between six kinds of concepts that are names, nama-pannatti (see Visuddhimagga VIII, note 11). 1. Vijjamana pannattis, concepts which make known what is real, for example the words rupa, nama, vedana (feeling), or sanna (perception) 10. 2. Avijjamana pannattis, concepts which make known what is not real, such as the words Thai or foreigner. These concepts do not represent absolute realities, citta and cetasika which are nama, and rupa. Thai or foreigner are not real in the absolute sense, they are conventional realities, sammutti dhammas. Could akusala citta11 (unwholesome consciousness) be Thai or foreign? Akusala citta is a paramattha dhamma (a reality), it is a dhamma which has its own characteristic, it is not Thai or foreign. 3. Vijjamanena avijjamana pannattis, concepts of the non- existent based on the existent. There is the expression "the person with the six abhinnas."12 The six abhinnas are real but person is not real. Thus this concept stands for what is real and for what is not real. 4. Avijjamanena vijjamana pannattis, concepts of the existent based on the non-existent. There is the expression "woman's voice". The sound is real, but the woman is not real. 5. Vijjamanena vijjamana pannattis, concepts of what is real based on what is real. There is the term cakkhu-vinnana (eye- consciousness). Cakkhu (eye) is a reality, namely the cakkhu-pasada- rupa (eyesense, a reality sensitive to colour or visible object), and vinnana (consciousness) is also a reality, namely the reality which experiences. 6. Avija amanena avijjamana pannattis, concepts of what is not real based on what is not real. There is the expression "the kings son". Both king and son are not real, they are sammutti dhammas, conventional realities. (From Realities and Concepts – Sujin Boriharnwanaket.) Nina Van Gorkom points to this with her usual clarity.: "Once I was having lunch with "Khun Sujin," my good friend in the Dhamma, in a Chinese restaurant in Bangkok. I was served a duck's foot and when I looked at it I had aversion. Khun Sujin said, "Just taste it, try it, without paying attention to the shape and form." I tasted it without paying attention to the shape and form. The taste was good. At that time I did not understand yet the full meaning of Khun Sujin's lesson, but she wanted to show me that the experience through the eyes is one thing, ant eh experience through the tongue the eyes is one thing, and the experience through the tongue quite another thing and thus another reality. We join all the different experiences together into a "whole" and we think" "I am eating a duck's foot." Duck's foot is not a reality. What are the realities? There is the experience of visible object, there is visible object, there is attention to shape and form, and this is different from seeing, there is aversion, there is tasting, the experience of flavour, there is flavour, there is thinking of the flavour. Thus we see that there are different mental phenomena, namas, and physical phenomena, rupas, and these can be known one at a time. We can begin to develop right understanding of the realities of our life. If we do not come to know namas and rupas which appear one at a time, we believe that a duck's foot, a person, a house or a car realities which exist. However, these things are ideas, not ultimate realities (paramattha dhammas). Namas and rupas which can be experienced one at a time are realities"endquote http://www.abhidhamma.org/understanding%20reality.html RobertK 26760 From: buddhatrue Date: Sat Nov 8, 2003 11:13am Subject: Re: Reply to Jimmy --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Star Kid wrote: > James: > > Thank you for the letter you sent me last week. I > learnt something new from your last letter, including > how to deal with teachers and friends, and how to not > annoy the teachers. > > Anyway, can you teach me how to handle the homework > and the projects? The teachers in my school SUCKS and > they are VERY ANNOYING! Especially, my math teacher > sucks the most. He dares to give us homework when > there is a social studies presention, a Chinese > journal and a math test next week. Is he an idiot, > seriously? Anyway, can any of your Buddhist ideas > help solve this problem? > > Looking forward to your reply. > > Philip Chui > Hi Star Kid Philip, You are welcome for my last letter. I hope that it will be of some benefit to you. However, from this letter I see that some of the things I wrote to you in that letter didn't stick. That is okay, I expected as much. It is not easy to change bad habits and it can't be done overnight. It isn't useful to think of your teachers as idiots. Your math teacher gives you homework because he wants you to learn math and to be smart. He isn't doing it because he is stupid or because he doesn't like his students (or you). Remember what I wrote in my last letter about having compassion for your teachers? Saying that your teachers suck and are idiots isn't very compassionate! ;-) Even thinking those kinds of things is just going to consume you and everyone around you in anger. As the Buddha taught, anger only causes more anger. Philip, I am not going to lie to you and tell you that all of your teachers are great. Teachers are human beings too and they have weaknesses. Sometimes they will give you too much homework and then blame you for not finishing it; and sometimes they will not explain an assignment properly and then blame you for not understanding. When this happens you might feel angry, frustrated, and irritated. But you need to ask yourself a question: What good do those feelings do? Do they help you? No. Do they help the teacher? No. What do they do? Answer: they just cause you to have more pain and suffering than the original problem. For example, if you allow your feelings to control you, three hours of homework actually becomes five hours of homework (three hours of actual work and two hours of getting carried away with thoughts of hate, anguish, and self-pity). If you just do the work without being upset about it, you will find that it gets done much faster than you thought possible. As the Buddha taught, you can control what your mind thinks about any given situation. Don't let your mind have control, choose to think good things rather than bad things. I know this may not be what you want to hear. You might even think that I am `not on your side'. But that isn't true; I am on your side. I wish you well in school and in your life. I have faith in you. Metta, James 26761 From: buddhatrue Date: Sat Nov 8, 2003 11:32am Subject: Re: buddhism Q's --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Star Kid wrote: > > Hi James, > > so living in Eygpt does seem quite different. Are > there rules in Buddhism like the Islamic ones such as > not being allowed to believe in other religion? > I know Islam and Christianity sprang out of Judaism. > Does Buddhism have any relationship with other > religions? What are the gods in Buddhism (if they have > any)? Does the ying yang have to do with Buddhism? > Well,enough questions for now. > > Hilary Hi Star Kid Hilary! Thanks for writing. I hope you are doing well. You ask some good questions so let me get right to the answers: Question: Are there rules in Buddhism like the Islamic ones such as not being allowed to believe in other religion? Answer: No. The Buddha taught that his followers were to have tolerance for people of other religions and that no one should be forced to believe anything. He told people to test for themselves what he taught. If they chose to believe some of what he taught but not everything, that would be okay. The Buddha realized that people come from different backgrounds and that not everyone is at the same place. Question: I know Islam and Christianity sprang out of Judaism. Does Buddhism have any relationship with other religions? Answer: This is a very intelligent question! Yes, Buddhism did spring from another religion: Vedic/Brahmanism. This religion eventually became Hinduism, but Buddhism was different. It contains some of the same ideas of Vedic/Brahmanism, like karma and rebirth, but it also contained some new ideas, like dependent origination and non-self. Question: What are the gods in Buddhism (if they have any)? Answer: This depends on the type of Buddhism you mean. Tibetan Buddhism has several different gods and deities, of which I know very little about because I'm not that type of Buddhist. My type of Buddhism, predominately Theravada, doesn't have any gods. Question: Does the ying yang have to do with Buddhism? Answer: No, that symbol comes from Taoism. It is meant to represent the polar opposites in the universe, ying and yang, and how they combine to create the whole. I could tell you more but this is a Buddhist group and the moderators might not like that. ;-) Thanks for your questions. Take care and study hard in school. Metta, James 26762 From: buddhatrue Date: Sat Nov 8, 2003 11:34am Subject: Re: Thankyou for teaching me about the teachings of Buddhism! --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Star Kid wrote: > > Dear James, > > Thankyou for the reply. > > From all of your replies, I've learnt alot of things. > I've learnt that the Buddha does not believe in luck, > or in any objects, the 5 teachings of kamma, Don't > lie;Don't steal;Don't kill; Don't drink alcohol or > take drugs; don't commit adultery, and more. > > Thankyou once again! For teaching me things about > Buddhism. > > Metta, Sandy Hi Star Kid Sandy! You are most welcome. If you have any other questions don't hesitate to ask. Metta, James 26763 From: robmoult Date: Sat Nov 8, 2003 1:30pm Subject: Re: Myanmar4 - decisive support, accumulations, desirable object, k... Hi Howard, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Okay, Rob. Exactly what does it *mean* to be desirable? Desirable by > what standard? So far, 'desirable' seems to be only a word. > ----------------------------------------------------- ===== To answer this question, the text introduces the concept of "average man" (majjhima-satta) and says, "It is distinguishable according to what is found desireable at one time and undesireable at another time by average men such as accountants, government officials, burgesses, land owners and merchants." Obviously, this list of professions is not to be taken too literally (after all, engineers and math teachers are not included :-) ). I interpret this as meaning, "normal people", i.e. not including masochists, perverts and wierdos; there is probably no Pali word for "wierdos" :-). ===== > Imagine that this smell is > > > undesireable. The functional adverting citta which takes this object > > will be accompanied by indifferent feeling. Because it is > > undesireable, the next citta will be an akusala vipaka nose door > > consciousness, also accompanied by an indiffent feeling. Next will > > be an akusala vipaka receiving and then an akusala vipaka > > investigating citta. Both of these cittas will be accompanied by > > indifferent feeling. The functional determining citta will be > > accompanied by indifferent feeling. Based on your ACCUMULATIONS > > (there's that word again! :-) ), there are a number of possible > > outcomes: > > > ============================ > In this case, the only effect of so-called undesirability seems to be > some indifferent mindstates along the way. Can "desirable" rupas also lead to > indifferent mindstates, and then, finally, accumulations set in to determine > the ultimate affective response. If yes, then that would make desirability a > straw man, both in well defined nature and in significant effect. ===== One could consider it a minor technical detail, but for me, coming to terms with it chopped off one more of the tentacles of self-view; no longer was the quality of a rupa up to ME. Extreme temperatures are undesireable, not because of ME not liking them, but because extreme temperatures are inherently undesireable. Metta, Rob M :-) 26764 From: robmoult Date: Sat Nov 8, 2003 1:47pm Subject: [dsg] Re: The Causes of Kamma Hi Howard, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Why that is exactly MY understanding as well! Here's the problem: You > gave acumulations as condition for kamma, and here you agree that > accumulations are the product of oft-repeated volitional actions. This then makes kamma, > derivatively, conditioned by prior kamma! But Nyanatiloka writes "Never, for > example, is any karmically wholesome or unwholesome volitional action the result > of former action, being in reality itself karma." This is an explicit > contradiction. My mistake; the cause of kamma is javana cittas; boring, because you already knew that :-). Which javana cittas arise depend on the determining citta which is itself conditioned by accumulations (according to the Patthana, accumulations are a condition for all cittas) So we get two diagrams: Accumulations -> Determining citta -> Javana citta -> Kamma Accumulations -> Javana citta -> Kamma It is clear that Buddhist Logic only looks at direct conditions. Indirect conditions (conditions of conditions) are not listed; otherwise it would get too complicated. This is why eating meat is not breaking the first precept. Metta, Rob M :-) 26765 From: kenhowardau Date: Sat Nov 8, 2003 2:57pm Subject: Re: Pigs eating dung Hi Christine, ------------- C: > Silly as it seems, the whole thing is getting to me. Isn't one of the catch cries of Abhidhamma "See for yourself whether something is so or not". Now it seems that we are being told "Believe what is written, I know it doesn't match what you have seen for yourself, but just accept it." --------------- Yes but, in this case, 'what is written' is pretty easy to believe: good deeds bring good fruit; bad deeds bring bad fruit. Would we want it any other way? --------------- C: > Unless Kusala and Akusala have lost their meaning too, I do know pretty much that anything based on greed, hate and delusion is akusala kamma, and that anything based on non-greed, non-hate, and non-delusion is kusala kamma. --------------- Well yes, that does destroy my point about what makes kusala kamma kusala. Thank you very much. Cetana simply intends, doesn't it? It is the presence of kusala or akusala roots that makes cetana kusala or akusala. But I'm not beaten yet :-) ---------------- . . . C: > I don't think we are debating personal opinions of the pleasantness or otherwise of pig dung <. . . .> But what I find unbelievable is that pig dung has 'intrinsic' (belonging to the basic nature of the thing) unpleasantness. Anymore than coal or hen feathers have. Does this mean that the dung beetle, the earth worm, any passing flies, myself, and any pig dung afficionados, all have wrong view? :-) ---------- This introduces a new aspect to the debate -- to which I am happy to be distracted. I think the poor dung beetle does have perversion of perception. Even when starving and gleefully diving into a heap of lovely fresh pig dung, (with the thought, 'I must have done something good to deserve this'), he is, in fact, receiving the intrinsically unpleasant results of akusala kamma in former lifetimes. But this is just figurative story telling to describe absolute reality -- neither dung-beetle nor dung is ultimately real. So don't let it get to you, just repeat after me; "Good kamma, good fruit; bad kamma, bad fruit. Good kamma, good fruit . . . . " :-) Kind regards, Ken H PS: Just as I am about to post this, I see that Roberts M and K have commented much more authoratively. But, as Sarah tells me, I shouldn't compare, I should just post. :-) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Hi KenH, > > Silly as it seems, the whole thing is getting to me. Isn't one of > the catch cries of Abhidhamma "See for yourself whether something is > so or not". > Now it seems that we are being told "Believe what is written, I know > it doesn't match what you have seen for yourself, but just accept it." 26766 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Sat Nov 8, 2003 3:21pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Concentration and samatha Hi Jon, I am a bit at loss now about what your position is... Peace, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Victor [snip] 26767 From: Sarah Date: Sat Nov 8, 2003 4:28pm Subject: Sue - May you have a peaceful day..... Dear Sue, May you have a peaceful day on the anniversary of your son’s passing away, with many wise reflections and awareness. In addition to all the kind and helpful letters sent to you recently, you may like to look at these ones from the archives saved under Useful Posts: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/Useful_Posts If the links don’t work here, either go to U.P. or key in the numbers in search on the homepage: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup Please put aside anything which is distressing for now. Death 381, 669 1903, 2235, 3921, 3930, 3990, 6819, 7986, 10575, 11456, 11462, 11513, 11587, 11612, 11628, 12530, 12993, 13743, 13767, 14253, 14642, 15787, 15942, 19875, 22630 Suicide 21715 I hope you feel able to share a little more of your reflections and any comments on what you’ve read to be of value in due course. With metta, Sarah p.s Yasa, I noticed that the last link was to a post of yours. If you’re still reading the messages here, we’d love to hear from you again. ====== 26768 From: Sarah Date: Sat Nov 8, 2003 4:37pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Sarah / Reflections on Wife family, children and cats - Dear Thomas. --- nordwest wrote: > We are together, and then we have to part again, this is not sad at all. > It's just natural like the seasons. .... I'm reflecting on your useful words again. It's true that all the sadness is due to ignorance and clinging only. When a friend lost her husband in difficult circumstances, she was reminded by K.Sujin to think of him as being like a wind or breeze passing by. So many winds and seasons pass by naturally. She found it very helpful at the time, I remember. It's not easy for me to even think about wisely. ..... >What is sad is a human lifetime not > used to do good, and to make spiritual progress. ... Another good reminder to make good use of this short life that may end at any time. In the ultimate sense, it's just as short as this moment. Look forward to more of your reminders. Metta, Sarah p.s thanks for taking note of the greeting and trim reminder;-) ;-) ================================== 26769 From: Date: Sat Nov 8, 2003 0:09pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Causes of Kamma Hi, Rob - In a message dated 11/8/03 5:10:14 PM Eastern Standard Time, rob.moult@j... writes: > It is clear that Buddhist Logic only looks at direct conditions. > Indirect conditions (conditions of conditions) are not listed; > otherwise it would get too complicated. This is why eating meat is > not breaking the first precept. > ======================== Ahh! Very good. This clarifies the issue and explains away the problem to my satisfaction. Thanks. [The question of direct vs both direct and indirect was something I raised in my original post on this topic. You've answered it here, removing any problem.] With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 26770 From: Date: Sat Nov 8, 2003 0:12pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Myanmar4 - decisive support, accumulations, desirable object, k... Hi, Rob - In a message dated 11/8/03 5:16:20 PM Eastern Standard Time, rob.moult@j... writes: > > In this case, the only effect of so-called undesirability > seems to be > >some indifferent mindstates along the way. Can "desirable" rupas > also lead to > >indifferent mindstates, and then, finally, accumulations set in to > determine > >the ultimate affective response. If yes, then that would make > desirability a > >straw man, both in well defined nature and in significant effect. > > ===== > > One could consider it a minor technical detail, but for me, coming > to terms with it chopped off one more of the tentacles of self-view; > no longer was the quality of a rupa up to ME. Extreme temperatures > are undesireable, not because of ME not liking them, but because > extreme temperatures are inherently undesireable. > > ========================= Okay, I see. I understand why this has been and is an important issue to you. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 26771 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Sat Nov 8, 2003 6:16pm Subject: Re: Pigs eating dung Hi Rob, Thank you for sharing your background. What speaks to you does not necessarily means that it is Dhamma. In other words, you recognized what reflects in your personal philosophy; however, what you found parallel to your personal philosophy does not necessarily mean that it is the Dhamma. I would recommend the discourse Anguttara Nikaya VIII.53 Gotami Sutta To Gotami http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an08-053.html Peace, Victor 26772 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Nov 8, 2003 10:23pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Inherent characteristics of rupa Howard You make a good point when you say: "The rupas experienced by the dung beetle are not the same rupas experienced by us. Why in the world should we assume they are?" I think this is important to appreciate. And by the same token, the rupas experienced by different people are not the same either, even by 2 people who are experiencing the same object at the same time. This is because 'the rupa being experienced' (a moment of sense-door consciousness) cannot be equated with 'the object being experienced' (a shorthand reference to a complex set of underlying phenomena and factors). (This is the significance of the comment already made by someone in this discussion that any example given in the texts in terms of a conventional object is general and illustrative, and to be understood as such.) I also agree with your comment that: "... pig dung - actually the experiences associated with pig dung - is quite desirable, properly so, for the dung beetle." What you are saying, I think, is that any object that conditions pleasant feeling in, or is perceived as being of benefit to, a person is a desirable object for that person. Here, the 'desirableness' of the object lies in the inherent tendencies of, or the perception of, the person towards the object. Let's call this, for convenience, 'subjective desirableness/undesirableness'. However, the question under discussion is whether, apart from that aspect -- i.e., excluding for the moment the (subjective) experiences/attitudes/inherent tendencies of the person experiencing the object -- there is any sense in which an object or, more correctly, a rupa that is taken for an object, has an inherent quality that distinguishes rupa-experienced-as-result-of-*kusala*-kamma from rupa-experienced-as-result-of-*akusala*-kamma. Let's call this, for want of a better word than 'desirable' in this context, 'objective desirableness/undesirableness'. (Note that the question as posed does not assume a desirableness/undesirableness that is necessarily apparent to or ascertainable by the 'person experiencing' the rupa.) I know that you already appreciate the distinction between the subjective and objective senses of 'desirable/undesirable', and that your position is that there is no such thing as the latter as regards rupas. However, I would be interested to know the basis for your position, other than your personal experience of the world (on which here, as on most other topics that come up for discussion, I'm sure our differences are few and minor ;-)). To my reading, the teachings do make a distinction between (a) the experiencing of that which is desired by/desirable to a person, or not, in the conventional sense and (b) the experiencing that is kusala or akusala vipaka. The former is referred to in the teachings in various ways including the 8 'worldly conditions' (loka-dhamma) of gain and loss, honour an dishonour, happiness and misery, and praise and blame. The latter is referred to in other terms unrelated to conventional values or individual preferences, such as for example in terms of the heavenly or hell realms where all objects experienced are either of 1 kind or the other. References in the texts to 'association with the liked and separation from the disliked' would, I imagine, encompass both (but I am just guessing here). Jon --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Rob (and Christine) - ... > > The dung beetle, the earth worm, any passing flies, and any pig > dung > > afficionados all have perversion of perception (perversion of > view > > is another thing). > > > --------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Certainly not. Using a pragmatic analysis, pig dung - > actually the > experiences associated with pig dung - is quite desirable, properly > so, for the > dung beetle. The rupas experienced by the dung beetle are not the > same rupas > experienced by us. Why in the world should we assume they are? > ---------------------------------------------------- 26773 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Nov 8, 2003 11:01pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Concentration and samatha Victor --- yu_zhonghao wrote: > Hi Jon, > > I am a bit at loss now about what your position is... Sorry about that ;-)). My 'position' on the passage "or to something more peaceful than that" is that, as quoted by Nina in her post to Steve, the commentary gives the meaning of higher levels of samatha/jhaana, or the paths (and I take 'paths' as a reference to enlightenment), and I that am happy to accept that for the purpose of further discussion. But I think you suggested in a post to Nina that this was something that could be put aside for the purpose of the discussion on the main issue, and I would agree with that (although you are of course welcome to share your position if you would like to ;-)) My position on the main issue, which began as a discussion on the importance of concentration in the development of samatha/the jhaanas, but has developed into a discussion on the importance of concentration/samatha/the jhaanas in the development of insight/enlightenment, is reflected in my most recent post to you (in which I reply to your last post to me before the Myanmar trip, which you kindly drew my attention to on my return). This post is at message No. 26541, in case you missed it. I hope that has clarified things and brought us up to date ;-)) Jon http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/26541 26774 From: nordwest Date: Sat Nov 8, 2003 11:09pm Subject: Science: Jesus may studied Buddhism before teaching Christianity Puri, India -- Did Jesus Christ ever visit the pilgrim city of Puri during his "unexplained twelve years" of life? We would know soon if German scholar H J Trebst's research to unearth the missing twelve years of Christ's life bears fruit. Dr Trebst, who had invited the scholars of this ancient city, yesterday said according to some scholars of the Orient and the West, Jesus had visited Puri where he had studied Veda and Yoga before returning home to preach Christianity. Jesus Christ had also studied Buddhism in the Indian sub-continent, the scholar, who had done extensive research in Ladhakh and Nepal to trace evidence of Christ's itinerary in the Indian sub-continent, said. A seminar was also organised under the aegis of Jagannath Gabeshana Parishad where eminent scholars like Dr Harekrushna Satapathy, Dr Siddheswer Mohapatra, Jagabandhu Padhi, Dr Debendra Dash and others deliberated over the Hindu religious texts which mentioned the activities of Jesus. Dr Trebst said 2,000 years ago Puri was a famous seat of learning and history has revealed that over the centuries religious leaders of various sects and cults had visited this holy shrine. It was most likely that Jesus had also visited this holy seat of learning, he said, though adding that it was a very difficult task to trace the history of his visit to Puri. The German scholar was, however, optimistic that the scholars of the pilgrim city would be of immense help in analysing the ancient manuscripts and scriptures on the visit of Jesus. Meanwhile, the local research scholars have suggested Dr Trebst to go through the library of the Jagatguru Sankeracharya, the oldest in the state, which had a large collection of palm leaf manuscripts since the time of Aadi Sanker (about 4th century BC) to find out the missing links in the life of Christ. From Buddhist News Network http://www.buddhistnews.tv/current/jesus-india-071103.php 26775 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sun Nov 9, 2003 0:07am Subject: Buddhism for Beginners Dear Group, For those looking for a basic course in Buddhism: http://www.nibbana.com/ Scroll down to Section B, Theravada II "Buddhism Course for Beginners" It will run from January to June 2004 and consists of weeky lectures by email. The Lecturers are mainly Theravadin Monks from the UK and USA and some lay persons. metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- 26776 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Nov 9, 2003 0:52am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Concentration and samatha Larry --- LBIDD@w... wrote: > Hi Jon, > > It occured to me that the tranquility of consciousness cetasika may > relate to the objects of consciousness, establishing a bias in > favor of > objects more condusive to tranquility. Hence the 40 meditation > objects. > If I am undersanding consciousess correctly, consciousness itself > is never in need of tranquilizing. As we have discussed before, 'tranquillity' is a mental factor that accompanies every kusala citta. Thus it accompanies kusala cittas that are kusala of the level of dana and sila as well as kusala cittas of the level of samatha. As I understand it, the relationship between the 40 meditation subjects and tranquillity of the level of samatha is as follows: 1/ There can be useful (i.e., wholesome) mind-states whatever the present subject that consciousness has as object. Useful (wholesome) mind-states are not confined to the 40 subjects given in the Visuddhi-Magga. 2/ However, only certain subjects of wholesome mind-states (i.e., the 40) are capable of supporting the development of *high levels of kusala concentration/absorption* in the subject. 3/ Then again, however, there is nothing in those subjects per se that means that the mind-state is more likely to be kusala than akusala. Those subjects can also be the object of akusala mind-states. It all depends on the person's understanding and other accumulated tendencies. Merely having the intention to develop samatha, for example, does not make the mind-state a kusala one or more likely to be so. Jon A couple of points of clarification: a/ When you say 'consciousness itself is never in need of tranquilizing', I think you refer to consciousness (citta) per se as opposed to [consciousness and] its accompanying mental factors (cetasikas). But since there is never any consciousness without mental factors, this distinction doesn't really have any bearing here, I think. b/ Every citta is 1 of 4 kinds, kusala, akusala, vipaka or kiriya; we are concerned here only with kusala and akusala cittas (i.e., those cittas arising in the javana process). 26777 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sun Nov 9, 2003 1:18am Subject: Re: Pigs eating dung Dear RobertK, RobM, and KenH, Thanks for for the time and effort you have expended attempting to explain the intrinsic pleasantness/unpleasantness of rupa topic. I guess I am a lost cause where anything beyond the basic terms in Abhidhamma is concerned. metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- 26778 From: robmoult Date: Sun Nov 9, 2003 1:41am Subject: Re: Pigs eating dung Hi Victor, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "yu_zhonghao" wrote: > > I would recommend the discourse > Anguttara Nikaya VIII.53 > Gotami Sutta > To Gotami > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an08-053.html Thanks for the link (nice short Sutta with a clear message). Metta, Rob M :-) 26779 From: robmoult Date: Sun Nov 9, 2003 1:55am Subject: Re: Pigs eating dung Hi Christine, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Thanks for for the time and effort you have expended attempting to > explain the intrinsic pleasantness/unpleasantness of rupa topic. I > guess I am a lost cause where anything beyond the basic terms in > Abhidhamma is concerned. In the past, I have "laid aside" topics after chewing on them for a while without result. Later, when conditions were right, I revisited the topics and things fell into place. I "laid aside" this very topic for a number of months. At this point in your life, I suspect that it might be a better use of your (considerable) mental energy to apply yourself to another topic that helps deepen your own practice and/or helps others (through you participation in DSG). Karuna, Rob M :-) 26780 From: Mahavir Date: Sun Nov 9, 2003 4:27am Subject: Advanced discussions in Jainism Hi! If you are interested in discussing about the Soul, God, Universe, Time etc. according to Jain philosophy, please join: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/kundkund This group is joined by many Jain scholars woedover and you can get answers to your any questions about Jain philosophy from them. Mahavir Sanglikar 26781 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Nov 9, 2003 6:18am Subject: Vism.EngPali.XIV, 21 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga), Ch. XIV [How many kinds of understanding are there?] 21. 12. In the second tetrad, the four kinds of knowledge classed as that concerned with meaning, etc., are called the "four discriminations". For this is said: 'Knowledge about meaning is the discrimination of meaning (attha-pa.tisambhidaa). Knowledge about law is the discrimination of law (dhamma-pa.tisambhidaa). Knowledge about enunciation of language dealing with meaning and law is the discrimination of language (nirutti-pa.tisambhidaa). Knowledge about kinds of knowledge is discrimination of perspicuity (pa.tibhaana-pa.tisambhidaa)' (Vbh. 293). 21. dutiyacatukke catasso pa.tisambhidaa naama atthaadiisu pabhedagataani cattaari~naa.naani. vutta~nheta.m -- ``atthe ~naa.na.m atthapa.tisambhidaa. dhamme~naa.na.m dhammapa.tisambhidaa. tatradhammaniruttaabhilaape ~naa.na.m niruttipa.tisambhidaa. ~naa.nesu ~naa.na.m pa.tibhaanapa.tisambhidaa''ti (vibha0 718). 26782 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Nov 9, 2003 7:04am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Myanmar4 - decisive support, accumulations, desirable object, k... Daer Howard, It is a difficult subject, but according to the texts, all four distortions can be object of perception, citta and wrong view. Another remark: there is perversity with each akusala citta. Nina. op 07-11-2003 17:30 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: > BTW, in the Anguttara Nikaya, in IV, 52 (Distortions of Perception), > the Buddha says there are four distortions of perception, thought, and views: > Holding that in the impermanent there is permanence, that in suffering there > is > happiness, that in what is non-self there is self, and that in the foul there > is beauty. This, as I see it, pertains to sa~n~na. 26783 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Nov 9, 2003 7:04am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sayadaws of Myanmar: To Nina Dear Suan, Thank you, it is very kind of you to offer a nissaya text, I am realy delighted. I know how busy you are, and it depends on your time. I have an idea. It is very beneficial to reflect on the five khandhas, I never have enough of this. I shall give below the passage of Vis. we also have read with Larry. op 08-11-2003 14:03 schreef abhidhammika op suanluzaw@b...: > Of course, please feel free to forward the information to Pali list > as well as to Jim. > And, I also do not forget your request to create a sample of Nissaya > text with English for you. > > If you would like to see a particular passage of Pali turned into a > Nissaya text, please let me know. N: Visuddhimagga XIV, 33 just before ruupakkhandha (and in tetx it is the end of 443); <33. aya.m pana vitthaaro, ya.m taava vutta.m ``khandhaayatanadhaatuindriyasaccapa.ticcasamuppaadaadibhedaa dhammaa bhuumii''ti, ettha khandhaati pa~nca khandhaa ruupakkhandho vedanaakkhandho sa~n~naakkhandho sa"nkhaarakkhandho vi~n~naa.nakkhandhoti.> With great appreciation. Nina. 26784 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Nov 9, 2003 7:04am Subject: Re: [dsg] Tiika Vis. 35 Hi Howard, I am glad you ask. op 08-11-2003 01:09 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: > > In a message dated 11/7/03 6:30:51 PM Eastern Standard Time, nilo@e... > writes: > >> Vis. 35. Herein (a) "primary materiality" is of four kinds as the earth >> element, water element, fire element, and air element. Their >> characteristic, function, and manifestation have been given under the >> definition of the four elements (Ch. XI, 87, 93); but as to the >> proximate cause, each has the other three as its proximate cause. [444] >> > ============================ H: Supposedly all rupa is either primary or derived from primary rupa. I > do not understand this. How, for example, is visual object or sound derived > from earth, air, fire,and water? What does it mean for these to be derived > from > them, and what is the means/mechanism of such derivation? N: Visible object and sound do not arise alone, they need the four primary rupas to accompany them as a foundation. However, only one characteristic is experienced at a time. When sound is experienced the accompanying primaries are not experienced at the same time. Sound can be soft or loud, and sometimes we say, it hurts our ears. Then it is not sound that is experienced, but the accompanying eart element (solidity)which hits bodysense in the ear. Sound can break a building, then it is the accompanying earth element that does so. Now, we should not mix in physics, because the goal of science is different form the goal of the teachings, which is the elimination of the idea of person that can control events and eventually of all defilements. The more we learn about conditions the more it will help us to eliminate clinging to self. That is why it is useful to learn that rupa does not arise alone, but in groups of other rupas that condition it. In each group there have to be the primaries, these are the foundation of the other rupas. Derived rupas: upaadaa: PED: taking up, subsisting on something else, secondary. They are dependent on the four primaries, cannot arise without them. They hold on to them. Grasping may give a notion of clinging, but rupas do not cling. Holding on renders more the idea of being dependent. There are different intensities of the hardness of the earth element, the heat of the fire element, etc. and this causes a great variety of visible object or sound which are dependent on them. I may not have time for your post on contact today, since I spent my day yesterday with pleasant eyecontacts, intrinsically desirable visible object, looking at the golden coloured trees. When getting tired the hardness was not desirable, a different contact, conditioning painful feeling. The wind element was not strong enough to do the moving about swiftly to adjacent locations! Nina. 26785 From: Date: Sun Nov 9, 2003 2:33am Subject: Re: [dsg] Inherent characteristics of rupa Hi, Jon - In a message dated 11/9/03 1:35:39 AM Eastern Standard Time, jonoabb@y... writes: > > Howard > > You make a good point when you say: > "The rupas experienced by the dung beetle are not the same rupas > experienced by us. Why in the world should we assume they are?" > > I think this is important to appreciate. And by the same token, the > rupas experienced by different people are not the same either, even > by 2 people who are experiencing the same object at the same time. > ----------------------------------------------- Howard: We agree completely here. ----------------------------------------------- > > This is because 'the rupa being experienced' (a moment of sense-door > consciousness) cannot be equated with 'the object being experienced' > (a shorthand reference to a complex set of underlying phenomena and > factors). (This is the significance of the comment already made by > someone in this discussion that any example given in the texts in > terms of a conventional object is general and illustrative, and to be > understood as such.) ---------------------------------------------------- Howard: Still in agreement. ---------------------------------------------------- > > I also agree with your comment that: > "... pig dung - actually the experiences associated with pig dung - > is quite desirable, properly so, for the dung beetle." > > What you are saying, I think, is that any object that conditions > pleasant feeling in, or is perceived as being of benefit to, a person > is a desirable object for that person. Here, the 'desirableness' of > the object lies in the inherent tendencies of, or the perception of, > the person towards the object. Let's call this, for convenience, > 'subjective desirableness/undesirableness'. > -------------------------------------------------------- Howard: We may be starting to diverge here. As I see it, the *particular rupa that arises* in a given mind stream, with its desirableness or undesirableness (which I take to be its pleasant or unpleasant "taste"), is conditioned by the accumulations of that mind stream along with other conditions. -------------------------------------------------------- > > However, the question under discussion is whether, apart from that > aspect -- i.e., excluding for the moment the (subjective) > experiences/attitudes/inherent tendencies of the person experiencing > the object -- there is any sense in which an object or, more > correctly, a rupa that is taken for an object, has an inherent > quality that distinguishes > rupa-experienced-as-result-of-*kusala*-kamma from > rupa-experienced-as-result-of-*akusala*-kamma. > -------------------------------------------------------- Howard: I think what I just wrote prior to this explains my understanding. The only rupas that are relevant here are those that actually arise in the namarupic stream involved, and, as I understand it, a rupa that arises in a given mind stream already carries with it the vedanic flavor that makes it desired or the disliked by the given "being". If at one time a given rupa is unpleasant and at another time "the same" rupa is felt as pleasant, these are, in fact, *not* the same rupas, because they differ not only in time and context of occurrence, but also in that one is undesirable and the the is undesirable. Of course, if 'desirable' and 'undesirable' mean something other than inducing desire or aversion, then this all goes out the window. But, in that case, it is obligatory on the user of these terms to spell out exactly what s/he means by 'desirable' and 'undesirable' - desirable for what? in what sense? by what criteria? ---------------------------------------------------------------- Let's call this, for> > want of a better word than 'desirable' in this context, 'objective > desirableness/undesirableness'. > > (Note that the question as posed does not assume a > desirableness/undesirableness that is necessarily apparent to or > ascertainable by the 'person experiencing' the rupa.) > > I know that you already appreciate the distinction between the > subjective and objective senses of 'desirable/undesirable', and that > your position is that there is no such thing as the latter as regards > rupas. > ----------------------------------------------------- Howard: I don't quite claim that. I only say that no objective criterion has been given. I offer "tending to induce desire" or "bearing pleasant taste" as criterion. ----------------------------------------------------- However, I would be interested to know the basis for your> > position, other than your personal experience of the world (on which > here, as on most other topics that come up for discussion, I'm sure > our differences are few and minor ;-)). > > To my reading, the teachings do make a distinction between (a) the > experiencing of that which is desired by/desirable to a person, or > not, in the conventional sense and (b) the experiencing that is > kusala or akusala vipaka. The former is referred to in the teachings > in various ways including the 8 'worldly conditions' (loka-dhamma) of > gain and loss, honour an dishonour, happiness and misery, and praise > and blame. The latter is referred to in other terms unrelated to > conventional values or individual preferences, such as for example in > terms of the heavenly or hell realms where all objects experienced > are either of 1 kind or the other. References in the texts to > 'association with the liked and separation from the disliked' would, > I imagine, encompass both (but I am just guessing here). > > Jon > ============================= Jon, I hope that my several interspersed remarks make clear my take on this matter. In any case, I don't see us as having any strong differences on this issue. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 26786 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Sun Nov 9, 2003 7:47am Subject: [dsg] Re: Concentration and samatha Hi Jon, I am not quite sure what you are trying to argue or why. Please refer to the exchange in messages 26355 and 26363. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/26355 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/26363 Peace, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Victor [snip] 26787 From: Date: Sun Nov 9, 2003 2:52am Subject: Re: [dsg] Tiika Vis. 35 Hi, Nina - In a message dated 11/9/03 10:10:08 AM Eastern Standard Time, nilo@e... writes: > Hi Howard, > I am glad you ask. > op 08-11-2003 01:09 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: > > > >In a message dated 11/7/03 6:30:51 PM Eastern Standard Time, nilo@e... > > >writes: > > > >>Vis. 35. Herein (a) "primary materiality" is of four kinds as the earth > >>element, water element, fire element, and air element. Their > >>characteristic, function, and manifestation have been given under the > >>definition of the four elements (Ch. XI, 87, 93); but as to the > >>proximate cause, each has the other three as its proximate cause. [444] > >> > >============================ > H: Supposedly all rupa is either primary or derived from primary rupa. I > >do not understand this. How, for example, is visual object or sound derived > >from earth, air, fire,and water? What does it mean for these to be derived > >from > >them, and what is the means/mechanism of such derivation? > N: Visible object and sound do not arise alone, they need the four primary > rupas to accompany them as a foundation. However, only one characteristic is > experienced at a time. When sound is experienced the accompanying primaries > are not experienced at the same time. Sound can be soft or loud, and > sometimes we say, it hurts our ears. Then it is not sound that is > experienced, but the accompanying eart element (solidity)which hits > bodysense in the ear. Sound can break a building, then it is the > accompanying earth element that does so. > ================================ This is very clear. The secondary rupas require the presence/foundation of the primary ones, but not vice-versa; so they are derivative *in the sense* of subordinatively requiring the primary rupas for their own presence. As far as only one at a time being experienced, I take it that the others (the ones not being experienced) are either "subliminally" present in consciousness, or are not at all present in consciousness, but have all conditions in place for their appearance, and are in "waiting mode" or are "queued up" as it were. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 26788 From: Date: Sun Nov 9, 2003 2:58am Subject: Re: [dsg] Inherent characteristics of rupa Hi, Jon - In a message dated 11/9/03 10:41:47 AM Eastern Standard Time, upasaka@a... writes the following error-filled paragraph: > Howard: > I think what I just wrote prior to this explains my understanding. The > only rupas that are relevant here are those that actually arise in the > namarupic stream involved, and, as I understand it, a rupa that arises in a > given > mind stream already carries with it the vedanic flavor that makes it desired > or > the disliked by the given "being". If at one time a given rupa is unpleasant > > and at another time "the same" rupa is felt as pleasant, these are, in fact, > > *not* the same rupas, because they differ not only in time and context of > occurrence, but also in that one is undesirable and the the is undesirable. > ========================= The preceding, properly repaired, becomes the following: "I think what I just wrote prior to this explains my understanding. The only rupas that are relevant here are those that actually arise in the namarupic stream involved, and, as I understand it, a rupa that arises in a given mind stream already carries with it the vedanic flavor that makes it desired or disliked by the given "being". If at one time a given rupa is unpleasant and at another time "the same" rupa is felt as pleasant, these are, in fact, *not* the same rupas, because they differ not only in time and context of occurrence, but also in that one is undesirable and the other is undesirable." With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 26789 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Sun Nov 9, 2003 8:28am Subject: Dhamma-vinaya Hi Rob, No problem. The criteria for distinguishing the Buddha's teaching from what is not are clearly stated in the Gotami Sutta. These criteria can be used to examine one's personal philosophy, as well as the content in the Abhidhamma Pitaka. Peace, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" wrote: > Hi Victor, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "yu_zhonghao" > wrote: > > > > I would recommend the discourse > > Anguttara Nikaya VIII.53 > > Gotami Sutta > > To Gotami > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an08- 053.html > > Thanks for the link (nice short Sutta with a clear message). > > Metta, > Rob M :-) 26790 From: Larry Date: Sun Nov 9, 2003 8:48am Subject: earth, water, fire, air Hi all, I wonder if we can say earth, water, fire, and air are three energies and one mass. The phenomenon we think of as air is actually a complex manifestation of the 4 element group. The same goes for the other three. Since the appearance of movement is actually the regeneration of a 4 element continuum in a slightly different location, perhaps we could say air energy is regeneration energy with a tie to location, which must have something to do with extension (earth?). When I touch this table with my finger there is hardness (earth) but there is also a force behind that hardness, pushing, and a resistance by the table. Are both the pushing and the resistance a manifestation of air energy as regeneration in a particular location? Could we say that fire is process energy that accounts for the "aging" of the 4 element group through successive regenerations? Does "aging" manifest as both physical changes and heat? Water holds the 4 element group together and also (?) holds discrete manifestations (molecules) of the 4 element group together. Is water gravitational or electrical energy? If there is a continuum of the 4 element group is there ever a cessation of this continuum? Does the continuation or end of the universe rely on the water element the same way as the continuation of the namarupa continuum relies on desire? Is desire responsible for holding namarupa together, forming it into groups and ultimately individuals? Regarding light, sound, object of taste, odor, object of touch: perhaps we can say when a tree falls in the forest there is no sound unless there is an ear with consciousness that hears it. There are sound waves but no sound. The same goes for light, object of taste, and odor. These are unique manifestations of the mind-body interface. Sound waves etc. are just particular kinds of 4 element manifestation. Object of touch is not unique to the mind-body interface but is directly manifested as the 4 element group. Something to think about. Larry 26791 From: buddhatrue Date: Sun Nov 9, 2003 11:56am Subject: Egypt Update: A Joke I met a young gay man here in Cairo, a university student. We met each other through the Internet. We were walking from one part of the city to another and telling each other our coming out stories. Mine was much more pleasant than his, as his contained a suicide attempt less than a year ago. As part of my story I told him how I had attended gay youth groups before and during college; and stated matter of factly that Cairo probably doesn't have any such groups. He replied, "No, the only gay groups we have are in the prisons." I laughed and he laughed. It is funny how the human spirit will shine through even in the face of such adversity. 26792 From: Date: Sun Nov 9, 2003 11:05am Subject: Re: [dsg] Egypt Update: A Joke Hi, James - In a message dated 11/9/03 3:58:36 PM Eastern Standard Time, buddhatrue@y... writes: > I met a young gay man here in Cairo, a university student. We met > each other through the Internet. We were walking from one part of > the city to another and telling each other our coming out stories. > Mine was much more pleasant than his, as his contained a suicide > attempt less than a year ago. As part of my story I told him how I > had attended gay youth groups before and during college; and stated > matter of factly that Cairo probably doesn't have any such groups. > He replied, "No, the only gay groups we have are in the prisons." I > laughed and he laughed. It is funny how the human spirit will shine > through even in the face of such adversity. > ======================== Yep! And so long as we can keep our sense of humor, though often it must be a wry, ironic humor, we remain victorious. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 26793 From: Sukinderpal Singh Narula Date: Sun Nov 9, 2003 5:04pm Subject: Re: Dhamma-vinaya Hi Victor, Rob M. and All, > The criteria for distinguishing the Buddha's teaching from what is > not are clearly stated in the Gotami Sutta. These criteria can be > used to examine one's personal philosophy, as well as the content in > the Abhidhamma Pitaka. Victor, long time no speak. As I still got the impression that you do not have any high regard for the Abhidhamma, would you mind giving your own analysis of it based on the criterion as put forward by the Buddha in the Gotami Sutta? I think this is going to evolve into an interesting thread. ;-) Metta, Sukin. 26794 From: Date: Sun Nov 9, 2003 5:30pm Subject: Vism. XIV 37 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) Ch. XIV 37. 1. Herein, the eye's characteristic is sensitivity of primary elements that is ready for the impact of visible data; or its characteristic is sensitivity of primary elements originated by kamma sourcing from desire to see.(14) Its function is to pick up [an object](15) among visible data. It is manifested as the footing of eye-consciousness. Its proximate cause is primary elements born of kamma sourcing from desire to see. ------------------ 14. 'Here the first-mentioned characteristic of the eye is described according to the kamma that produces a selfhood, and is common to all of it, and this without touching on differentiation is the cause. The second is according to the specialized kamma generated thus, 'Let my eye be thus'. This is what they say. But it can be taken that the first-mentioned characteristic is stated as sensitivity's interest in lighting up its own objective fields, the five senses' state of sensitivity being taken as a generality; and that the second is stated as the seeing that is due to the particular division of its own cause, the sensitivities' cause as the state of kamma being taken as a generality or as a unity. The same method applies to the ear and so on. 'Here it may be asked, "Is the arising of the faculties of the eye, etc., due to kamma that is one or to kamma that is different?" Now the ancients say, "In both ways". Herein, firstly, in the case of the arising of an eye, etc., due to kamma that is different there is nothing to be explained since the cause is divided up. But when their arising is due to kamma that is one, how does there come to be differentiation among them? It is due to dividedness in the cause too. For it is craving, in the form of longing for this or that kind of becoming that, itself having specific forms owing to hankering after the sense-bases included in some kind of becoming or other, contrives, acting as decisive-support, the specific divisions in the kamma that generates such a kind of becoming. As soon as the kamma has acquired the differentiation induced by that [hankering] it generates that effort consisting in appropriate ability a multiple fruit with differentiated essences, as though it had itself taken on a multiple form. And the ability here need not be understood as anything other than the able state; for it is simply the effort of producing fruit that is differentiated by the differentiation due to the differentiation in its cause. And the fact of this differentiating effort on the part of kamma that is one being the cause of the multiple faculties will be dealt with below as to logic and texts (note 21). Besides, it is told how one kind of consciousness only is the cause of the generation of the ripe, the unripe, the husked, and the unhusked fruit. But what is the use of logical thinking? For the eye, etc., are the fruit of kamma; and kamma-result is exclusively the province of a Buddha's knowledge' (Pm. 444). 15. Aavi~njana--'picking-up': see "aavijjhati" in P.T.S. Dict. 26795 From: robmoult Date: Sun Nov 9, 2003 5:39pm Subject: Accumulations - for comment Vasana (Tendency that Continues) ================================ A fundamental principle of Buddhism is that everything arises because of conditions; there is no God and no self to "decide" things. The Patthana, the seventh book of the Abhidhamma, explains conditional relations; ways in which one thing can be a condition for another. One of these modes of conditioning is "natural decisive support" (pakatupanissaya). Natural decisive support works as a condition when one of the following factors is present: - Some strong past concepts - Strong past citta / cetasika - Strong past rupa "Strong" means that the past object made a powerful impression at the time or that the object was frequently encountered in the past. "Past" does not only include experiences in the current lifetime, but also experiences from previous lifetimes. In other words, habits, accumulations, strong past impressions and past solemn vows condition the present through natural decisive support. Accumulations are the conditioning factors, natural decisive support is the mode of conditioning, but what is conditioned? The texts explain that all 89 cittas and their associated cetasikas are conditioned. In other words, accumulations play a part in the arising of every mental state. Though every single citta is influenced by accumulations, we can see that there are certain cittas where conditioning by accumulations plays a critical role: - Sense-door adverting: this citta controls the flow of the citta process and "decides" that a certain rupa will become the object of a citta process. Each of the senses is constantly bombarded with information; it is accumulations that "decide" which data will be processed. - Determining / mind door adverting: this citta controls the flow of the citta process and "decides" which type of javana (kamma producing) cittas will follow. Accumulations "decide" if our thoughts will be kusala or akusala. - Javana: these cittas create kamma. The weightiness of the kamma produced depends on the strength of the volition (cetana). It is accumulations that "decide" how strong the cetana will be and therefore the weightiness of the resulting kamma. - Jhana: The arising of the jhana citta depend on accumulations. Accumulations "decide" when we should enter jhana. - Path: The arising of the supramundane cittas depend on accumulations. Accumulations "decide" when we are ready to become a Sotapanna (or higher). The popular saying that "people are creatures of habit" is absolutely true. If we feel drawn to the Dhamma, it is probably because we studied the Dhamma in a past life and have accumulations to study the Dhamma in this life as well. If we are attracted to a person, it is probably because we have been associated with them in a past life (Yasodhara was the wife of the Buddha in a previous existence). If we have a "talent" in music or art, it is probably because of experience in past lives. If we have an affinity towards a type of food or practice, it is probably linked to past lives. There are hundreds of examples in the Suttas and commentaries where the character or circumstances of a person is linked to accumulations from a previous life. The ability to perceive a person's accumulations is one of the unique abilities of a Buddha (Arahants and others do not have this ability). At the time of the Dipankara Buddha, Sumedha the Hermit made a solemn vow that he would become a future Buddha. This solemn vow influenced the Bodhisatta for countless lifetimes. Sariputta and Moggallana were chief disciples of the Buddha and Ananda was the attendant of the Buddha because they had made solemn vows in previous lives that this was the role that they wanted to play. Carita (Temperament) ==================== The term "carita" is found in the Abhidhamma, Visuddhimagga and the Vimutthimagga (a precursor to the Visuddhimagga that focuses on meditation); it is often translated as "temperament", "personal nature", "propensity" or "character". The Abhidhammatthasangaha lists forty meditation subjects. To ensure progress, it is important that a meditation subject be selected to match the meditator's carita. It is possible for an individual to have a combination of caritas. - Raga-carita (lustful, greedy or passionate; propensity to desire and longing): 10 kinds of foulness, 32 parts of the body - Dosa-carita (hateful, angry; propensity to irritation and anger): 4 illimitables, 4 coloured kasinas - Moha-carita (deluded; propensity to delusion and superstition): Breathing - Saddha-carita (faithful; propensity to gullibility and snap judgments): 6 recollections of the Buddha - Buddhi-carita (intellectual, intelligent; propensity to curiosity and reasoning things through): 4 elements, loathsomeness of food, death, peace - Vitakka-carita (discursive, speculative, ruminating or pondering; propensity to excessive thought and worry): Breathing Other meditation subjects are suitable for all types of carita. People with raga-carita and saddha-carita are usually gentle, polite, clean, neat and tidy. They prefer sweet, aromatic and tender food. Greed does not give up on what is harmful while faith does not give up on what is beneficial. The one with raga-carita, the lustful one, has attachment to five sensual pleasures. He is wily, cunning, proud and greedy. The one with saddha-carita is truthful and honest. He is generous in nature and is liberal in charity. He is pious, reveres the Three Jewels and enjoys listening to Dhamma talks. People with dosa-carita and buddhi-carita are usually slipshod and untidy. They love sour, salty, bitter or pungent food. Hate is disaffected and does not hold onto its object in an unprofitable way, whereas intelligence is also disaffected and does not hold onto its object, albeit in a profitable way. A dosa dominant person is crude, untidy and undisciplined. He reacts violently to ugly things and unpleasant sounds. A buddhi dominant person is free from the evils of the dosa carita. He is ready to learn from the wise and is generally mindful. He is farsighted and fond of virtuous deeds. A moha-carita person is associated with ignorance, delusion and forgetfulness. He is usually perplexed and confused. He cannot distinguish between right and wrong, good and bad. He is incapable of making his own judgments, so he follows the opinion of others in denouncing or praising someone. Since he is devoid of sati and panna (wisdom) he wastes his time by being lazy, indolent and skeptical. He is the victim of sloth and torpor. Delusion vacillates due to superficiality while pondering vacillates due to conjecturing. Like moha-carita, the vitakka-carita person also lives in the way of uncertainty and skepticism. He is indolent and incapable of doing moral deeds. He indulges in useless babble, speculation and imagination, so he becomes a useless person, squandering his time. Application in Daily Life ========================= Though it is impossible for anyone but a Buddha to understand the details of Vasana and Carita, an appreciation of how they operate can help us in our daily life. We should look for opportunities to perform wholesome deeds. This searching for and planning a wholesome deed is, in itself, a wholesome deed. We should ensure that all wholesome deeds are done with strong volition, mindfulness and clear intention. We should review and rejoice in wholesome deeds performed and share the merits of our actions. Each of these activities creates good kamma and good accumulations; a condition to support the performing of more good deeds in the future. When there is an unwholesome state of mind, we should note it with mindfulness. Seeing an unwholesome state of mind for what it is constitutes a wholesome action. Mindfulness arrests the process of mental proliferation (papanca); the multiplication of unwholesome states of mind. Practicing mindfulness on an unwholesome state of mind weakens the power of the accumulation that conditioned the unwholesome state. We should understand the potential power of a solemn vow. To increase the potency of the vow, it should be made when the mind is clear and not troubled by restlessness. Finally, by understanding our own carita, we can select appropriate meditation objects. A person with an incorrect meditation object will find spiritual progress difficult. There are cases where Sariputta approach the Buddha for advice when one of Sariputta's students was not progressing; in these cases the Buddha would recommend a different meditation object for the student. Metta, Rob M :-) 26796 From: Date: Sun Nov 9, 2003 5:45pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism. XIV 37 Hi Nina, The way I read this, the gist of the commentary (note 14) is that the eye arises because of kamma that produces all the senses or because of kamma that produces just the eye. The kamma that produces the eye is the desire to see and the kamma that produces all the senses _incorporates_ the desire to see. Is that your interpretation of this note? Also, does this mean we get whatever we desire? Larry --------------------- "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) Ch. XIV 37. 1. Herein, the eye's characteristic is sensitivity of primary elements that is ready for the impact of visible data; or its characteristic is sensitivity of primary elements originated by kamma sourcing from desire to see.(14) Its function is to pick up [an object](15) among visible data. It is manifested as the footing of eye-consciousness. Its proximate cause is primary elements born of kamma sourcing from desire to see. ------------------ 14. 'Here the first-mentioned characteristic of the eye is described according to the kamma that produces a selfhood, and is common to all of it, and this without touching on differentiation is the cause. The second is according to the specialized kamma generated thus, 'Let my eye be thus'. This is what they say. But it can be taken that the first-mentioned characteristic is stated as sensitivity's interest in lighting up its own objective fields, the five senses' state of sensitivity being taken as a generality; and that the second is stated as the seeing that is due to the particular division of its own cause, the sensitivities' cause as the state of kamma being taken as a generality or as a unity. The same method applies to the ear and so on. 'Here it may be asked, "Is the arising of the faculties of the eye, etc., due to kamma that is one or to kamma that is different?" Now the ancients say, "In both ways". Herein, firstly, in the case of the arising of an eye, etc., due to kamma that is different there is nothing to be explained since the cause is divided up. But when their arising is due to kamma that is one, how does there come to be differentiation among them? It is due to dividedness in the cause too. For it is craving, in the form of longing for this or that kind of becoming that, itself having specific forms owing to hankering after the sense-bases included in some kind of becoming or other, contrives, acting as decisive-support, the specific divisions in the kamma that generates such a kind of becoming. As soon as the kamma has acquired the differentiation induced by that [hankering] it generates that effort consisting in appropriate ability a multiple fruit with differentiated essences, as though it had itself taken on a multiple form. And the ability here need not be understood as anything other than the able state; for it is simply the effort of producing fruit that is differentiated by the differentiation due to the differentiation in its cause. And the fact of this differentiating effort on the part of kamma that is one being the cause of the multiple faculties will be dealt with below as to logic and texts (note 21). Besides, it is told how one kind of consciousness only is the cause of the generation of the ripe, the unripe, the husked, and the unhusked fruit. But what is the use of logical thinking? For the eye, etc., are the fruit of kamma; and kamma-result is exclusively the province of a Buddha's knowledge' (Pm. 444). 15. Aavi~njana--'picking-up': see "aavijjhati" in P.T.S. Dict. 26797 From: robmoult Date: Sun Nov 9, 2003 6:17pm Subject: Introduction to the Abhidhamma - Slides 44-48 for comment Unwholesome Cetasikas Slide Contents ============== In all bad cittas * Delusion / Ignorance / Dullness - Shamelessness / No Conscience - Recklessness / Lack of Moral Dread - Restlessness / Distraction / Wavering In some bad cittas * Greed / Attachment / Sensuous Desire - Wrong View / Evil Opinion - Conceit / Pride * Aversion / Hatred / Anger - Envy / Jealousy - Selfishness / Avarice / Stinginess - Remorse / Worry / Regret / Brooding - Sloth - Torpor - Doubt * 3 Evil Roots Speaker Notes ============= This is the list of the fourteen unwholesome mental factors. The first four arise in all unwholesome states and the remaining ten only arise in some unwholesome states. Unwholesome Cetasikas in Daily Life Slide Contents ============== What happens to us (Result of Past Kamma) -> Like --> Lobha (Bad Kamma) -> Indifference --> Moha (Bad Kamma) -> Dislike --> Dosa (Bad Kamma) -> Seeing things as they truly are (wise attention) Kusala (Good Kamma) In reality, "choice" is conditioned by accumulations (habits). "Free Will" is one kind of bridge to one level of understanding. On the Path, when you reach each such level, you leave each bridge behind. But you can't leave your bridge behind until you are beyond it. Speaker Notes ============= There is a natural reaction to what happens to us. If we like it, mind states rooted in attachment (lobha-mula) arise. If we dislike it, mind states rooted in aversion (dosa-mula) arise. If we ignore it, mind states rooted in delusion (moha-mula) arise. Liking, disliking and ignoring all give rise to bad kamma. To get good kamma, we must see things as they truly are. This is called wise attention – Yoniso Maniskara in Pali. For example, when we practice dana, there is no lobha, no dosa, no moha – this creates good kamma. It is clear that there are four options instantly arising from what happens to us: (Like / Dislike / Indifference / Wise Attention). There is no "self" pushing for any of these options. The arising of one of these options will arise naturally from our habits. This is a very important point. If every morning we get up and practice a short sitting doing metta meditation, then after a while, metta will develop into a habit. With this as a foundation, our mind will naturally react with metta. This brings up the issue of "free will" in Buddhism. Since the reaction to what happens to us is conditioned by our habits, there is no "free will" in play. This is a difficult concept for some people to accept. However we must consider the following: - If there is no "self", what is it that exercises this "free will"? - Is there "free will" involved in the arising of confusion or restlessness? - Knowing how damaging anger can be, why would anybody freely choose for anger to arise? "Free Will" is a concept that can be useful as we begin on the path. However, at some point along the path, we must give it up. In the Simile of the Snake Sutta (Mn 22), the Buddha said, "… my Teaching is comparable to a raft for the purpose of crossing over and not for getting hold of." 26798 From: Date: Sun Nov 9, 2003 6:27pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Concentration and samatha Jon (1): "You ask what is known/experienced when a citta (i.e., the immediately fallen away citta, 'citta A') becomes the object of the succeeding citta ('citta B'). I think the answer would depend on the level of panna that accompanies citta B but, as I understand it, there can be no question of citta B experiencing both citta A and the object of citta A at the same moment." Jon (2): "When you say 'consciousness itself is never in need of tranquilizing', I think you refer to consciousness (citta) per se as opposed to [consciousness and] its accompanying mental factors (cetasikas). But since there is never any consciousness without mental factors, this distinction doesn't really have any bearing here, I think." Hi Jon, When consciousness is the object of consciousness is the object consciousness with or without accompanying cetasikas? It apparently is without an object. Also, I know in the Satipatthana Sutta consciousness of consciousness is _with cetasikas_ but could there be mindfulness of consciousness in consciousness the same way there is mindfulness of feeling in feeling? Feeling is, in some way, an "exclusive" object of mindfulness even though it always arises with other cetasikas. Why not the same for consciousness? As to tranquility-of-consciousness cetasika, I was trying to differentiate it from tranquility-of-the-mental-body cetasika. I think this line of thought has become hopelessly confused, so let's let it go for now. Larry 26799 From: bodhi2500 Date: Sun Nov 9, 2003 6:37pm Subject: Re: Accumulations - for comment/Anapanasati Hi All Rob Moult wrote: > Carita (Temperament) > ==================== To ensure progress, it is important > that a meditation subject be selected to match the meditator's > carita. It is possible for an individual to have a combination of > caritas. snip> > - Moha-carita (deluded; propensity to delusion and superstition): > Breathing snip> > A moha-carita person is associated with ignorance, delusion and > forgetfulness. He is usually perplexed and confused. He cannot > distinguish between right and wrong, good and bad. He is incapable > of making his own judgments, so he follows the opinion of others in > denouncing or praising someone. Since he is devoid of sati and panna > (wisdom) he wastes his time by being lazy, indolent and skeptical. > He is the victim of sloth and torpor. Delusion vacillates due to > superficiality while pondering vacillates due to conjecturing. Like > moha-carita, the vitakka-carita person also lives in the way of > uncertainty and skepticism. He is indolent and incapable of doing > moral deeds. He indulges in useless babble, speculation and > imagination, so he becomes a useless person, squandering his time. > Metta, > Rob M :-) It is said, "Anapanasati is difficult,difficult to develop, a field in which only the minds of Buddhas,paccekabuddhas and Buddhas sons are at home" and "The most difficult of the 40 meditation subjects" and that anapanasati is for those with "great accumulations of panna and other parami". Why then is anapanasati recommended for a "Moha carita person"? What is the definition of "Buddhas sons"? Thankyou Steve