26800 From: Date: Sun Nov 9, 2003 2:42pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Concentration and samatha Hi, Larry & Jon - In a message dated 11/9/03 10:00:04 PM Eastern Standard Time, LBIDD@w... writes: > Jon (1): "You ask what is known/experienced when a citta (i.e., the > immediately fallen away citta, 'citta A') becomes the object of the > succeeding citta ('citta B'). > I think the answer would depend on the level of panna that accompanies > citta B but, as I understand it, there can be no question of citta B > experiencing both citta A and the object of citta A at the same moment." > > Jon (2): "When you say 'consciousness itself is never in need of > tranquilizing', I think you refer to consciousness (citta) per se as > opposed to [consciousness and] its accompanying mental factors > (cetasikas). But since there is never any consciousness without mental > factors, this distinction doesn't really have any bearing here, I > think." > > Hi Jon, > > When consciousness is the object of consciousness is the object > consciousness with or without accompanying cetasikas? It apparently is > without an object. Also, I know in the Satipatthana Sutta consciousness > of consciousness is _with cetasikas_ but could there be mindfulness of > consciousness in consciousness the same way there is mindfulness of > feeling in feeling? Feeling is, in some way, an "exclusive" object of > mindfulness even though it always arises with other cetasikas. Why not > the same for consciousness? > > As to tranquility-of-consciousness cetasika, I was trying to > differentiate it from tranquility-of-the-mental-body cetasika. I think > this line of thought has become hopelessly confused, so let's let it go > for now. > > Larry > ============================ What in the world could one be aware of when one is aware of a consciousness but not of the object of that consciousness? If that occurred, then being aware of one consciousness would be no different from being aware of another. Being aware of a preceding consciousness could be nothing other than remembering it. And what is remembered probably occurs in bits and pieces over a period of time, and then is mentally summed up by a single mindstate. We may be aware *that* we were just aware of something, and then be aware of what that something was, and then recall how we felt during that moment of consciousness, for example. And then this is all put together as a unitary "memory", a mental construct somewhat similar to a concept. Any awareness of a consciousness must proceed in this fashion, and must be a matter of remembering. The previous consciousness, its object, and all its features and associated functions no longer exist, and, so, can only be remembered, and a memory is almost never a perfect replica - in fact, it can't be inasmuch as we always know the difference between a memory and the original. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 26801 From: ashkenn2k Date: Sun Nov 9, 2003 8:38pm Subject: Re: Introduction to the Abhidhamma - Slides 41-43 for comment Hi RobM How does this feeling --> perception --> thinks about, reconcile with dependent origination? Kind rgds Ken O --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" wrote: > Ethically Variable Cetasikas in Daily Life > > Slide Contents > ============== > > Citta + Eye + Form -> Contact > > Contact -> Feeling > > Feeling -> Perception (Naming) > > Perception (Naming) -> Thinks About (Memory) > > Thanks About (Memory) -> Mental Proliferation > > > > > Small circle (nucleus) = Ultimate Reality > > Big Circle (surrounding small circle) = What we think is real > > Area between small circle and big circle = Mental Proliferation > > > > > Quotation from Honeyball Sutta (Mn18) > > Naturally arising phenomena > --------------------------- > Dependent on the eye and forms, eye consciousness arises. The > meeting of the three is contact. With contact as a condition there > is feeling. > > One's reaction to naturally arising phenomena > --------------------------------------------- > What one feels, that one perceives. What one perceives, that one > thinks about. What one thinks about, that one mentally proliferates. > > Impact of one's reaction > ------------------------ > With what one has mentally proliferated as the source, perceptions > and notions tinged by mental proliferation beset a man with respect > to past, future and present forms cognizable though the eye. > > > 26802 From: ashkenn2k Date: Sun Nov 9, 2003 9:02pm Subject: Re: Concentration and samatha Hi Victor, I was wondering how you define Right Concentration? I would like to invite you to read this sutta about concentration - SN xxxV.89 Samadhi Sutta. I would also like to introduce to this sutta which also mentio about concentration. http://www.metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/1Digha-Nikaya/Digha1/06- mahali-e.htm. My feel is that your definition of concentration is not right concentration as mentioned in the Eightfold path . If you look at Ripleys, you find concentration can do wondering acts but not enlightement. Just like in Buddha times, there are pple who practise concentration but they do not become enlighted like Buddha. My personal opinion is that concentration is a insight mediation as mention in Samadhi Sutta and not otherwise. Kind regards Ken O --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Victor > > Thanks for pointing me to the place we left off, and apologies for > the delay in replying. > > You suggest starting again. I think that's a good idea ;-)). I too > have a suggestion. I think we should keep the discussion to > manageable-sized chunks. So please don't think I'm avoiding any of > your points or sutta quotes if I don't cover everything in a single > post ;-)) > > You start by asking the question, 'Why did the Buddha teach right > concentration/samma samadhi?' I think the short answer is that the > Buddha taught everything that needs to be known about the path > leading to enlightenment. One of the most important of these is the > 8 factors of which the Noble Eightfold Path is comprised. Samma > samadhi is 1 of these. > > To my understanding, these path factors are the factors that > accompany a moment of path consciousness. They are not factors to be > developed separately and individually and that somehow coalesce when > they have reached a certain degree. > > I wont cite from the commentaries here, since I understand that you > don't accept the commentarial material. Instead I'll ask whether in > your view what I have just said is inconsistent with anything found > in the suttas. > > Jon > 26803 From: robmoult Date: Sun Nov 9, 2003 9:06pm Subject: Re: Introduction to the Abhidhamma - Slides 41-43 for comment Hi Ken O, Excellent question! "Feeling --> Perception --> Thinks About" is how the mind operates and dependent origination is how we are bound to samsara. As a quick reminder, the relevant portion of dependent origination is: Feeling --> Craving --> Clinging --> Becoming Let us consider the difference between an Arahant and a non-Arahant. Both will have feeling (feeling arises with every citta). Both will have perception (Arahants are able to name things). The way in which "thinks about" works is diffent in an Arahant and a non- Arahant. A non-Arahant will have "thinking about" driven by clinging (lobha) and this is what binds him/her to samsara. An Arahant does their "thinking about" using functional (kiriya) cittas that do not create kamma. Hope that this helps. Metta, Rob M :-) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "ashkenn2k" wrote: > How does this feeling --> perception --> thinks about, reconcile > with dependent origination? > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" > wrote: > > Ethically Variable Cetasikas in Daily Life > > > > Slide Contents > > ============== > > > > Citta + Eye + Form -> Contact > > > > Contact -> Feeling > > > > Feeling -> Perception (Naming) > > > > Perception (Naming) -> Thinks About (Memory) > > > > Thanks About (Memory) -> Mental Proliferation > > > > > > > > > > Small circle (nucleus) = Ultimate Reality > > > > Big Circle (surrounding small circle) = What we think is real > > > > Area between small circle and big circle = Mental Proliferation > > > > > > > > > > Quotation from Honeyball Sutta (Mn18) > > > > Naturally arising phenomena > > --------------------------- > > Dependent on the eye and forms, eye consciousness arises. The > > meeting of the three is contact. With contact as a condition there > > is feeling. > > > > One's reaction to naturally arising phenomena > > --------------------------------------------- > > What one feels, that one perceives. What one perceives, that one > > thinks about. What one thinks about, that one mentally > proliferates. > > > > Impact of one's reaction > > ------------------------ > > With what one has mentally proliferated as the source, perceptions > > and notions tinged by mental proliferation beset a man with respect > > to past, future and present forms cognizable though the eye. > > > > > > 26804 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Nov 9, 2003 9:12pm Subject: FW: greeting from Icaro! Dear all, I wrote to Icaro, being worried about the dangers he has to face. ---------- Van: icaro franca Datum: Sun, 9 Nov 2003 04:14:25 -0800 (PST) Aan: nina van gorkom Onderwerp: Re: greeting Dear Nina: I am really very busy at the Air Base, but my mind labors weren't in vain: my grades and scores are still O.K....but the main part of the Boot Camp (The so called Boot Camp itself!) will begin next week!!!! My next Dhamma Diary Chapter will verse about Conventional Truths and Ultimate Truths!!!!! Thanks for your kind and warm regards, Nina! (... and missing so much all people at the Dhamma Study Group, mainly you, Mike, Sarah, Jon and Connie!!!!!!) These > trainings are so dangerous. Or are you just busy > with theory? Fortunately not so much, Nina... but I haven't got any time for so much replies!!!! mettaya and kisses for all dsg!!! Icaro 26805 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Nov 9, 2003 9:12pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Sarah / Reflections on Wife family, children and cats - Hi Sarah and Thomas, op 09-11-2003 01:37 schreef Sarah op sarahdhhk@y...: Th: We are together, and then we have to part again, this is not sad at all. >> It's just natural like the seasons. > .... S: I'm reflecting on your useful words again. It's true that all the sadness > is due to ignorance and clinging only. When a friend lost her husband in > difficult circumstances, she was reminded by K.Sujin to think of him as > being like a wind or breeze passing by. So many winds and seasons pass by > naturally. She found it very helpful at the time, I remember. It's not > easy for me to even think about wisely. N: I had the same reaction when reading the reminder above. Not easy at all. I remember about the wind, and how I discussed it with Sarah. Th: What is sad is a human lifetime not >> used to do good, and to make spiritual progress. > ... S: Another good reminder to make good use of this short life that may end at > any time. In the ultimate sense, it's just as short as this moment. N: Here is the solution. Because thinking is only thinking, it will not help. Developing understanding of this moment will gradually help. Nina. 26806 From: Sarah Date: Sun Nov 9, 2003 9:13pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Sarah / Reflections on Wife family, children and cats - Hi Nori, --- norakat147 wrote: > > We are together, and then we have to part again, this is not sad at > all. It's just natural like the seasons. What is sad is a human > lifetime not used to do good, and to make spiritual progress. > > > > Gassho, > > Thomas > > > --- > > I couldn't agree more, and I have had this attitude even before > encountering Dhamma. > > I just wish the girlfriends I meet feel likewise. They are not really > bad people but they could get possesive, attached/clingy and > dependent. ..... ;-) In the end, we can only know our own mental states and begin to understand the attachment we have at this moment. What about the attachment when we encourage others to like us and be with us and then the attachment to the parting seasons when the others are attaching?? Is there any metta and karuna for the poor 'clingy' girlfriends, or just wishing for what we would like and clinging to ourselves at these times? Metta, Sarah ====== 26807 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Sun Nov 9, 2003 9:14pm Subject: Re: Concentration and samatha Hi Ken, Do you mean Samyutta Nikaya XXXV.99 Samadhi Sutta Concentration http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn35-099.html ? What is right concentration? "And what is right concentration? There is the case where a monk -- quite withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful (mental) qualities -- enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. With the stilling of directed thought & evaluation, he enters & remains in the second jhana: rapture & pleasure born of composure, unification of awareness free from directed thought & evaluation -- internal assurance. With the fading of rapture he remains in equanimity, mindful, & fully alert, and physically sensitive of pleasure. He enters & remains in the third jhana, and of him the Noble Ones declare, 'Equanimous & mindful, he has a pleasurable abiding.' With the abandoning of pleasure & pain -- as with the earlier disappearance of elation & distress -- he enters & remains in the fourth jhana: purity of equanimity & mindfulness, neither pleasure nor pain. This is called right concentration." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn45-008.html Peace, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "ashkenn2k" wrote: > Hi Victor, > > I was wondering how you define Right Concentration? I would like to > invite you to read this sutta about concentration - SN xxxV.89 > Samadhi Sutta. I would also like to introduce to this sutta which > also mentio about concentration. > http://www.metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/1Digha-Nikaya/Digha1/06- > mahali-e.htm. > > My feel is that your definition of concentration is not right > concentration as mentioned in the Eightfold path . If you look at > Ripleys, you find concentration can do wondering acts but not > enlightement. Just like in Buddha times, there are pple who > practise concentration but they do not become enlighted like Buddha. > > My personal opinion is that concentration is a insight mediation as > mention in Samadhi Sutta and not otherwise. > > > > Kind regards > Ken O 26808 From: Sarah Date: Sun Nov 9, 2003 9:17pm Subject: Re: [dsg] English discussions Hi Sukin (& Christine), --- Sukin wrote: > > So after considering the matter, K. Sujin decided that it would be > better to > limit > the service to Thai discussions only. So now the regular English > discussions > is also > back to the afternoon. .... Makes good sense -better to get this well- established. Thx for keeping us informed. Metta, Sarah ====== 26809 From: Sarah Date: Sun Nov 9, 2003 9:27pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Sarah / Reflections on Wife family, children and cats - Hi Nina, --- nina van gorkom wrote: > S: Another good reminder to make good use of this short life that may > end at > > any time. In the ultimate sense, it's just as short as this moment. > N: Here is the solution. Because thinking is only thinking, it will not > help. Developing understanding of this moment will gradually help. > Nina. .... Another good reminder. Also when the Abhidhamma or other teachings don't make sense, it'll depend on conditions whether topics are put aside (there may be intentions to do this, but that doesn't mean it'll happen - no control;-)). Most useful is developing awareness and understanding of the realities at the time of thinking, doubt, confusion and so on. Who wants to know or get the solution or have it all worked out nicely? Only 'Self' again and more whispering lobha. Thank you also for all the helpful comments on ignorance relating to the Milinda qu. I know at least a couple of people have asked about this passage before and found it difficult to accept that misdeeds performed with more ignorance are more serious than with knowledge of the misdeed being performed. I hope this has helped clarify for them as well. Perhaps they can comment if not. Metta and appreciation, Sarah ====== 26810 From: ashkenn2k Date: Sun Nov 9, 2003 9:53pm Subject: Re: Concentration and samatha Hi Victor > > "And what is right concentration? There is the case where a monk -- > quite withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful (mental) > qualities -- enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure> born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation> With the stilling of directed thought & evaluation, he enters & > remains in the second jhana: rapture & pleasure born of composure, > unification of awareness free from directed thought & evaluation -- > internal assurance. With the fading of rapture he remains in > equanimity, mindful, & fully alert, and physically sensitive of > pleasure. He enters & remains in the third jhana, and of him the > Noble Ones declare, 'Equanimous & mindful, he has a pleasurable > abiding.' With the abandoning of pleasure & pain -- as with the > earlier disappearance of elation & distress -- he enters & remains > in the fourth jhana: purity of equanimity & mindfulness, neither > pleasure nor pain. This is called right concentration." Thanks for the quote. If you look at the basis for 1st jhana, withdraw from unskilful qualities - does this implies stillness of thoughts or calm as the main crux for entering it. In my personal opinion, one without the knowledge of stress/suffering or insight will not be able to withdraw from unskillful qualities. The statement is even more impt bc subsequently before entering the second jhana -- there is still a need to be withdraw from such qualities. And together with stilling of thoughts then second jhana can be achievable where the basis of calmness is imply. Subsquently, even more impt are the good mental qualities like mindfullness etc, hence to me this implies that without insight, there is no third jhana or fourth jhana. Kind regards Ken O 26811 From: Sarah Date: Sun Nov 9, 2003 9:53pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: More Myanmar stories;-) Hi Suan, --- abhidhammika wrote: > > > Dear Sarah > > Thank you for your kind sharing of experiences in Myanmar during a > brief visit there. > > I studied Pali at the Mandalay University briefly before transfer to > a university in Yangon. The student hall I stayed was not very far > from the eastern wall of the Mandalay Palace. So it is called Nan > Shaet Hall (Nan = Palace, Shaet = East). And it is also within a > walking distance of about one hour or so away from Manadalay Hill. So > in the evenings, I usually organized walks with other students to > visit Mandalay Hill, Kuthodaw (Kusala Royal), Historical Monasteries > in the suburbs between Nan Shaet Hall and Mandalay Hill. As those > places are historical places and buildings, I had a feeling of being > relocated in a different time and place. .... Having just been to these places, it's easy to understand. We would have liked more time to just wander around like this. What a wonderful place to study and with such a rich tradition. It's now an easy flight to Pagan (about 30 mins only). Not like the old days when friends would tell me about their long jeep trips. <...> > Yes, study of Abhidhamma, commentaries, and subcommentaries, study of > Pali saddaa texts the old way, writing of new works and new Nissaya > texts on Pali Tipi.taka will remain intact through the thriving > learning centres in each region of Myanmar such as Mandalay > Monasteries, Sagai Monasteries, Pakhukkuu Monasteries, Pyi > Monasteries, Yangon Monasteries, Pegu Monasteries, Myaungmya > Monasteries, Mawlamyaing Monasteries and the like. .... Again, a few of the names are now familiar, like Pegu where we spent most of one day. In U Narada's preface to 'Guide to conditional Relations' he gives some interesting comments about 'Why Abhidhamma thrives in Burma'. this relates to the 'Akauks' or analytical states which he says are only known in burma and are compilations based on the states given in the Comy and Subcomy texts. It's so helpful that more of these texts and charts (like those used in Abhidamattha Sangaha) are being made available slowly. I hope we have access to the Yamaka and commentaries to this and other texts soon. <....> By the way, U Pe Maung Tin used Pyi Sayadaw's Nissaya texts on > A.t.thasaalinii and Visuddhimaggo (Pyi in Middle Myanmar) when he > translated them as "The Expositor" and "The Path Of Purity". I have > Pyi Sayadaw's Nissaya texts On A.t.thasaalinii in addition to > Mahagandhayon Sayadaw's modern Nissaya texts. Pyi Sayadaw's Nissaya > texts are called "Old Nissaya Texts". I would like to know what it > feels like having Pyi Sayadaw's Nissaya texts on Visuddhimaggo. > > Nissaya texts are study aids for students of Pali and convenient > reference works for Pali scholars. .... For a long time, U Pe Maung Tin's transl of the A.t.thasaalinii was about the most useful book I possessed. It contains a wealth of helpful detail. In his preface, I see he says he based the translation on two Burmese texts and "I derived much help from the two Burmese translations of the A.t.thasaalinii - namely the Old Nissaya by Ariyaala'nkaara of the early part of the eighteenth century, and the New Nissaya by Pyii Sadaw of the middle of the nineteenth century". This is just as you said. Thanks for your interesting comments, Suan. I look forward to any more! With metta, Sarah ====== 26812 From: Sarah Date: Sun Nov 9, 2003 10:51pm Subject: Re: [dsg] earth, water, fire, air Hi Larry & All, Well, I'll just comment on the first few lines;-) --- Larry wrote: > Hi all, > > I wonder if we can say earth, water, fire, and air are three energies > and one mass. .... We can say anything, but I don't think this is useful;-) 4 elements or rupas - not 'energies'. An 'energy' represents many rupas. ..... >The phenomenon we think of as air is actually a complex > manifestation of the 4 element group. .... Yes, what we think of as 'air' is a concept, representing a complex set of rupas. ..... >The same goes for the other > three. Since the appearance of movement is actually the regeneration > of a 4 element continuum in a slightly different location, perhaps we > could say air energy is regeneration energy with a tie to location, > which must have something to do with extension (earth?). ..... Movement occurs as a result of a complex number of namas and rupas. In the Satipatthana Sutta tika we read; "On account of the condition of processes making action of body and so forth and by reason of the condition of originating action of adverting, impulsion of either course of cognition, or lust of every process of the six doors gets known as a process which makes or is made of action." Many sense-door and mind-door processes are involved. We also read about the complex interaction of rupas, eg p74 (Soma's transl); "In raising up the foot A (paaduddhara.ne) two processes (dhaatuyo): extensions (pathavii) and cohesion (aapo), are low, weak (omattaa honti dubbalaa), and the other two processes: caloricity (tejo) and oscillation (vaayo) are high, (adhimitta honti balavatiyo);" etc. Many more details given. Then: "Who is the one that goes forward? Just no one. Could it be said: Whose going forward is there? No. Why? In the highest sense, what takes place is the going, the standing, the sitting down, and the lying down of the processes. The passage just mentioned is for dispelling the false idea of a self that goes forward which a confused blinded worldling is apt to possess ...." .... As Nina mentioned in another post, we need to know that rupas arise in a kalapa (group), but only one rupa can ever be the object of citta and awareness at any time. .... >When I touch > this table with my finger there is hardness (earth) .... Yes. ... >but there is also > a force behind that hardness, pushing, and a resistance by the table. .... This is thinking about a concept of a force etc, different from the hardness directly experienced through the body-sense. .... As James pointed out, wrong views and delusions only ever occur in the mind, but it is on account of the 5 khandhas, including rupas, that illusions of a self, permanence and satisfactoriness arise. As he also suggested, cutting off the senses does not eradicate wrong views. This is why experience of jhanas and even rebirth in arupa realms does not lead to the realisation of anatta. The only way to follow the eightfold path is to understand presently arising namas and rupas for what they are - conditioned elements with different characteristics. Nina’s presently posting the details of just the same set of primary and derived rupas which Rahula was instructed to understand in order to develop vipassana (insight) and lessen clinging to the idea of ‘body’ and ‘self’ and the perversions of perception with regard to perceiving the foul as beautiful, the unsatisfactory as satisfactory and so on. Nina wrote (18B): “Rahula had to develop understanding not only of materiality, ruupa, but also of mental phenomena, naama, of all five khandhas. When we take them all as a whole, there is the idea of a person. Hearing is naama, a citta that experiences sound, it is not the ruupa that is sound, it is no the ruupa that is earsense. Understanding this, not only by reflection, but by direct understanding of the characteristics of the elements as they appear one at a time must lead to detachment. Clinging to the idea of "I, mine" can decrease. As we read in the Mahaarahulovaadasutta: Date: Sun Nov 9, 2003 11:57pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Causes of Kamma Hi RobM (& Howard), --- robmoult wrote: > My mistake; the cause of kamma is javana cittas; boring, because you > already knew that :-). <..> > It is clear that Buddhist Logic only looks at direct conditions. > Indirect conditions (conditions of conditions) are not listed; > otherwise it would get too complicated. This is why eating meat is > not breaking the first precept. .... Think of the three rounds (va.t.ta)- kamma, kilesa, vipaka va.t.tas and the round of rebirth (sa’msaara). I think we read about direct and indirect conditions all the time. For example, we’ve been talking a lot about natural decisive support condition. For kamma to bring a result, it needs this condition to ‘assist’. Hence, akusala can be a condition for kusala and vice versa. An inherently desirable rupa experienced (result of kusala kamma) can be a condition for akusala and so on, whilst the tendency to such ‘responses’ has not been eradicated. Rob, we were discussing the value of understanding details about the desirable and undesirable rupas. Rahula was reminded not to be attached or have aversion to these different rupas, but understanding their characteristics as elements: Nina wrote: >Subco to Mahaaraahulovaadasutta, 22B Text Subcommentary: Someone who has completed the task is called ‘of such nature’, and he practises insight [vipassana]; and then, for what purpose was the nature of suchness spoken of? The explanation of the characteristic of (development) like the earth [pathavi] and so on has as purpose a happy course of insight [vipassana]. ``i.t.thaani.t.thesuu''tiaadi. Therefore he says, ‘with regard to the desirable and the undesirable’[i.t.tha ani.t.tha] and so on. as to the expression, after he has mastered them, this means, after he has thoroughly comprehended them, because of the opportunity that was given for a skilful course of action. ***** The desirable and undesirable characteristics of the rupas don’t change, but the insight and detachment from them are developed. As you said, it helps to understand this for the appreciation of anatta. I think the details about pakatupanissaya paccaya and other conditions show how anything can be a condition directly or indirectly. You had kind intentions to buy some CDs for DSG friends, but indirectly this was a condition for bumping into another car and some akusala vipaka. The other driver also experienced some unfortunate results, but these led to her receiving a disc. So many complex conditions at work. When we discussed the Sivaka sutta (SN), we read about indirect causes and results of kamma and how it’s wrong to attribute everything to this cause. We’ve also had discussions about what is ‘pakati’ or ‘bokati’(Thai) or ‘natural’ as in pakatupanissaya. We can see that what is ‘natural’ is different for all and changing all the time. Who can say what their ‘carita’ or character is when there’s so little awareness of present realities? Aren’t there all the ‘carita’ appearing in rapid succession? Rob, I hope you have a pleasant and useful meeting with K.Sujin. We’ll all look forward to your impressions and comments from the discussion. I’ve particularly appreciated some of your detailed posts recently, such as those to Howard & Connie(eg 26741, 26733, and 26731). I notice, however, that elsewhere you’re still ignoring my comments on the vipallasa -i.e perversion of sanna and citta at each unwholesome moment, inc. attachment to the desirable etc-;-)). Many thanks for all your great contributions, kind examples and encouragement to everyone here, Rob. I'm sure we all learn a lot from you. Metta, Sarah ====== 26814 From: robmoult Date: Mon Nov 10, 2003 0:40am Subject: [dsg] Re: The Causes of Kamma Hi Sarah, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > > It is clear that Buddhist Logic only looks at direct conditions. > > Indirect conditions (conditions of conditions) are not listed; > > otherwise it would get too complicated. This is why eating meat is > > not breaking the first precept. > .... > Think of the three rounds (va.t.ta)- kamma, kilesa, vipaka va.t.tas and > the round of rebirth (sa'msaara). I think we read about direct and > indirect conditions all the time. ===== I'm not clear here. Where do we read about indirect conditions? How are the three rounds examples of indirect conditions? ===== > For example, we've been talking a lot > about natural decisive support condition. For kamma to bring a result, it > needs this condition to `assist'. ===== Natural decisive support condition has all cittas and their cetasikas as a possible conditioned state; including cetana (I touched on this in my recent essay on accumulations). I see this as a direct condition, not as an indirect condition. ===== > Hence, akusala can be a condition for > kusala and vice versa. An inherently desirable rupa experienced (result of > kusala kamma) can be a condition for akusala and so on, whilst the > tendency to such `responses' has not been eradicated. ===== Agreed, but this is still not indirect :-) ===== > > I think the details about pakatupanissaya paccaya and other conditions > show how anything can be a condition directly or indirectly. You had kind > intentions to buy some CDs for DSG friends, but indirectly this was a > condition for bumping into another car and some akusala vipaka. The other > driver also experienced some unfortunate results, but these led to her > receiving a disc. So many complex conditions at work. When we discussed > the Sivaka sutta (SN), we read about indirect causes and results of kamma > and how it's wrong to attribute everything to this cause. ===== I see an interplay between conditions and accumulations all the time; conditions are "momentary" whereas accumulations are "sustained". ===== > We've also had > discussions about what is `pakati' or `bokati'(Thai) or `natural' as in > pakatupanissaya. We can see that what is `natural' is different for all > and changing all the time. Who can say what their `carita' or character is > when there's so little awareness of present realities? Aren't there all > the `carita' appearing in rapid succession? ===== I see carita as an accumulation; if they were not sustained, how could the Buddha recommend a meditation object for Sariputta's student? Individual realities at each moment are very difficult to percieve, but at least a general picture of one's own tendencies and habits is pretty easy to know. ===== > Rob, I hope you have a pleasant and useful meeting with K.Sujin. We'll all > look forward to your impressions and comments from the discussion. > I notice, however, that elsewhere you're still ignoring my comments on the > vipallasa -i.e perversion of sanna and citta at each unwholesome moment, > inc. attachment to the desirable etc-;-)). ===== Perversions are on my "to do list" :-) I am going to use this opportunity of meeting K. Sujin to ask her about them. Metta, Rob M :-) 26815 From: Sarah Date: Mon Nov 10, 2003 0:54am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Myanmar4 - decisive support, accumulations, desirable object, kamma Hi Connie, I’m enjoying this 3-way discussion, even though I'm in danger of getting out of my depth;-). Just a few more comments to add to yours and RobM’s: --- connie wrote: > > I see we're encroaching on another thread here when we start getting > into the desireability of rupa objects. [S: For example, in decisive > support of object, a desirable object is a strong condition for cittas > and cetasikas which are inclined towards it. So, for example, inherently > desirable rupas, such as particular tastes, may be a 'decisive support > object' for attachment, but only if attachment is accumulated to want > such tastes]. The inherent 'desire' of desirability has to be in the > accumulations I think, but then what about 'the beautiful'? .... I think as Rob, Jon and others have pointed out, we need to clearly distinguish between the characteristics of rupas and attachment which is accumulated as you say. As the extract from the Maharahulavada sutta comy clearly points out, the problem is not in the rupas;-) We take the desirable for being beautiful, permanent and so on, but in fact even the most desirable objects(i.e rupas) are still foul and impermanent and so on, even though they are experienced by kusala kamma. .... > Fire > element is fire element and it's in every kalapa, so what, other than > (perverse) accumulations, makes it more desireable in a fresh flower > than a crumbled leaf when all conditioned things are dukkha? .... I’m not sure if I’m answering your qu (or exactly following it), but remember that though rupas arise together in a kalapa, only one characteristic appears, depending on kamma and accumulations: As Nina just wrote: >N: Visible object and sound do not arise alone, they need the four primary rupas to accompany them as a foundation. However, only one characteristic is experienced at a time. When sound is experienced the accompanying primaries are not experienced at the same time. Sound can be soft or loud, and sometimes we say, it hurts our ears. Then it is not sound that is experienced, but the accompanying eart element (solidity)which hits bodysense in the ear. Sound can break a building, then it is the accompanying earth element that does so.< Does this answer the qu? If not, please explain a little more. .... >Left on my > own, I'd think only the three sobhana hetu/cetasika could be inherently > desireable... not of course, to the point of clinging. The fire on our > heads is only desireable insofar as it conditions wise/proper attention. > Someone at last night's meditation group said she didn't like being > motivated by fear/hell. .... Again, I’m not sure if I’m following you. Remember that attachment or desire can cling to any nama, rupa or concept except the (reality of) nibbana and lokuttara states. .... > I've been reading Conditions and have skipped straight to ch. XVII in > The Path of Purification (and a lot of skipping around in that), but > it's all pretty much parrot or question to me at this point. Not just > the Pali... I don't normally use words like 'cogent reason', but as > Buddhaghosa says at the end of the chapter... Let a wise man with > mindfulness / So practice that he may begin / To find a footing in the > deeps / Of the Dependent Origin. And they're set out as 24 conditions, > but sometimes, to paraphrase, they're different in letter, but the same > in meaning or only in stressing a particular aspect... as with the > cogency/decisive force (mental gravity, Rob?) .... Cogent force - strong or compelling condition, powerful inducement. Now, Connie, don’t encourage Rob with ‘gravity’ here or we’ll get even more confused;-) Reading and considering the Dhamma now can be a cogent force or condition for awareness to arise, depending on many other factors of course. This moment of consciousness has to be a ‘cogent’ condition for the next to arise. No other kind of consciousness could follow. ..... > of the three decisive > supports/upanissaya. Thus, proximate decisive support approximates > proximity, which is the same as contiguity. But only multiple fruits > from multiple causes, no singularities except as teaching devices, so I > think whatever is pakatupanissaya has to be aahaara as well and I don't > know what all else, but "it is unmixed with object and proximity" (XVII > 84). .... One day we may get to this part of Vism, ch XV11, which will be helpful. Pakatupanissaya is much wider than aahara as I understand. The dhammas included in aahara are included in pakatupanissaya but the conditions act in different ways. As the quote I gave from U Narada’s intro to the Patthana showed, the conditioning ‘force’ is ‘inherent’ in the conditioning dhamma and many such forces can be present as characteristics of those dhammas. In the case of aahaara paccaya (nutriment condition), the conditioning dhamma maintains the conditioned dhamma. To give Howard’s cetasika of the month, phassa (contact), as an example: Phassa is both a decisive support for citta to experience its object at each moment and also a mental nutriment for this contact. It must also act as a condition in many other ways too, such as by conascent condition for other cetasikas and the citta, etc, etc. We don’t have to know and work out or understand all these conditions, but considering a little helps break down any idea of self or free-will or choice. .... > I'm more likely to be behind the camera than in front of it, Sarah, and > that rarely, but we'll see. .... That sounds like a half-promise, Connie;-) Perhaps we could ask Mike to do a quick sketch;-) Metta, Sarah p.s Please let me know where I’ve misinterpreted your comments. I’ll also be glad of any corrections by you or anyone. ====== 26816 From: Sarah Date: Mon Nov 10, 2003 2:02am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Causes of Kamma Hi RobM, This’ll be a quick one because my limb injuries need some exercise (Gentle ‘bopping’ to the Rolling Stones was a positive condition, however;-)) .... --- robmoult wrote: > > .... > I'm not clear here. Where do we read about indirect conditions? How > are the three rounds examples of indirect conditions? .... You and Howard were discussing about how accumulations lead to kamma in the javana process. I’m suggesting that in addition we can say that vipaka cittas and rupas experienced through the sense doors are indirect conditions for that kamma, because it is on account of these experiences that the accumulated tendencies lead to kamma patha, results and so the rounds go on. So while it’s perfectly correct to say as H. quoted from the dictionary: “Never, for example, is any karmically wholesome or unwholesome volitional action the result of former action, being in reality itself karma”, I’m suggesting that there are other conditions at work. If I’ve butted in and not followed your discussion properly, just ignore;-) ..... > Natural decisive support condition has all cittas and their > cetasikas as a possible conditioned state; including cetana (I > touched on this in my recent essay on accumulations). I see this as > a direct condition, not as an indirect condition. .... OK. Perhaps I mistook ‘indirect’ to refer to ‘not the main’ condition here. My mistake. ... > I see an interplay between conditions and accumulations all the > time; conditions are "momentary" whereas accumulations > are "sustained". > > ===== I agree about the interplay. I’m not sure about the ‘sustained’ or what it means. When I referred to the Sivaka sutta as an example of the use of ‘indirect’ conditions in the texts, I was thinking of this: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/13094 ***** Thus seated, he said: "There are, revered Gotama, some ascetics and brahmans who have this doctrine and view: 'Whatever a person experiences, be it pleasure, pain or neither-pain-nor-pleasure, all that is caused by previous action.' Now, what does the revered Gotama say about this?" "Produced by (disorders of the) bile, there arise, Sivaka, certain kinds of feelings. That this happens, can be known by oneself; also in the world it is accepted as true. "Now when these ascetics and brahmans have such a doctrine and view that 'whatever a person experiences, be it pleasure, pain or neither-pain-nor-pleasure, all that is caused by previous action,' then they go beyond what they know by themselves and what is accepted as true by the world. Therefore, I say that this is wrong on the part of these ascetics and brahmans." Produced by (disorders of the) phlegm... of wind... of (the three) combined... by change of climate... by adverse behaviour... by injuries... by the results of Kamma -- (through all that), Sivaka, there arise certain kinds of feelings. That this happens can be known by oneself; also in the world it is accepted as true. ****** Bile, climate and so on are concepts representing realities which condition feelings. In this sense, I think of them as ‘indirect’. Let me drop the word ‘indirect’ which can lead to misunderstandings and give this as an example in the suttas of pakatupanissaya paccaya, kamma and other conditions working together in complex ways to condition feelings and other conditioned/accumulated states at this moment. Eating meat is not breaking any precept. However,as a result of eating meat, attachment to the taste could be a condition to kill, just as the rupas experienced by the change of climate may be a condition to get sick or anything. I don’t think we have any disagreement, Rob, but I’m sure the Buddha’s wisdom could trace conditions back for aeons and conditions of conditions of conditions......direct or indirect. No need to speculate. ..... > I see carita as an accumulation; if they were not sustained, how > could the Buddha recommend a meditation object for Sariputta's > student? .... Back to the Buddha’s omniscience which knew everything including the changing or predominant cittas that were and would be arising in future, the results of actions and so forth. Still only momentary. ..... >Individual realities at each moment are very difficult to > percieve, but at least a general picture of one's own tendencies and > habits is pretty easy to know. .... Only the Buddha and his chief disciples could select an appropriate object and even then, sometimes the Buddha had to intervene, as in the case of Rahula. I used to think I was pretty perceptive about my own and other tendencies (after all, I was trained as a psychologist;-)). The more I study the Dhamma, the more I realise that these ‘perceptions’ are all just (unhelpful) stories and accumulated thinking which has nothing to do with awareness of realities at this moment. Now I think there’s really little if any correlation between our perceived ‘general picture’ and the direct understanding of tendencies and carita. For a start, usually the ‘general picture’ is an idea of a self and selves, not an understanding of lobha at this instant which cannot be seen from the outside. The Dhamma, esp. the Abhidhamma is so very precise. .... > Perversions are on my "to do list" :-) I am going to use this > opportunity of meeting K. Sujin to ask her about them. ..... ;-) You might like to add carita, meditation objects and accumulations..... oh and kamma and kamma patha perhaps. Discussions with K.Sujin never go according to plan, I find. You’ll have your Qs and paper, but she’ll soon interrupt (very sweetly) and start asking you her Qs;-) Look f/w to your report as I said. Sorry, if I’ve just confused on this thread - I must take a break! Metta, Sarah p.s Sukin, I’m thinking of Erik again. If you have a chance, pls try calling him again. Do you think he might like to join? Pls tell him I tried calling when we were in Bkk. ============= 26817 From: Date: Mon Nov 10, 2003 0:28am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Concentration and samatha Hi, Ken (and Victor) - In a message dated 11/10/03 1:01:56 AM Eastern Standard Time, ashkenn2k@y... writes to Victor: > Thanks for the quote. If you look at the basis for 1st jhana, > withdraw from unskilful qualities - does this implies stillness of > thoughts or calm as the main crux for entering it. In my personal > opinion, one without the knowledge of stress/suffering or insight > will not be able to withdraw from unskillful qualities. The > statement is even more impt bc subsequently before entering the > second jhana -- there is still a need to be withdraw from such > qualities. And together with stilling of thoughts then second jhana > can be achievable where the basis of calmness is imply. > > Subsquently, even more impt are the good mental qualities like > mindfullness etc, hence to me this implies that without insight, > there is no third jhana or fourth jhana. > > =========================== Sati, though not given as a jhana factor, certainly takes the lead in developing of concentration. Actually, sati and samadhi are mutually supportive. As far as wisdom is concerned, well, of course, some wisdom must be in effect at all stages of working to achieve any goal. But more than insight being a requirement of jhana, it is a development of jhana (along with the investigation of dhammas). Concentration is a condition for the development of wisdom, a sine qua non for it. But, of course, it is not a sufficient condition for it. But, again, not only is concentration a condition for insight, but insight is a condition for the further cultivation of jhanas. In this, I see your statement as correct. As wisdom develops during the course of jhana cultivation (along with energetic investigation of dhammas), it includes the realization of the inadequacy of lesser jhanas, leading one to let go and move on to more and more subtle jhanas, and eventually there arises the insight of the inadequacy of all jhanas, and, in fact, of all conditioned states. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 26818 From: abhidhammika Date: Mon Nov 10, 2003 5:44am Subject: Nissaya Text On Section 431 In Visuddhimaggo: To Nina Dear Nina, Sarah, Robert K, Mike Niece, other Pali enthusiasts and all How are you? The following is the Pali passage that Nina provided. It is from Section 431 in Visuddhimaggo. 431. aya.m pana vitthaaro, ya.m taava vutta.m ``khandhaayatanadhaatuindriyasaccapa.ticcasamuppaadaadibhedaa dhammaa bhuumii''ti, ettha khandhaati pa~nca khandhaa ruupakkhandho vedanaakkhandho sa~n~naakkhandho sa"nkhaarakkhandho vi~n~naa.nakkhandhoti. The following is the Nissaya text I wrote. This may well be the first attempt of its kind. Nissaya Text 431. Aya.m - This (is) , pana – on the other hand, vitthaaro – an elaboration. Ya.m ettha – Where, vutta.m – it is said, taava – first, ti – that, dhammaa – the principles, bhedaa – that are such varieties as, (vaa - alternatively), bhedaa - dividable as, khandhaa – aggregates, aayatanaani – venues, dhaatuyo – elements, indriyaani – controls, saccaani – truths, pa.ticcasamuppaado – dependent origination, aadi – and the like, bhuumi – the filed, (paññaaya – of wisdom), khandhaati – aggregates are, pañca khandhaa – the five aggregates, ti – namely, ruupakkhandho – matter aggregate, vedanaakkhandho – feeling aggregate, saññakkhandho – memory aggregate, sa`nkhaarakkhandho – activation aggregate, viññaa.nakkhandho – and consciousness aggregate." Nina, please pay attention to how I connected "yam" and "ettha". Also to the additions in the brackets. You will also notice that the long compound "khandhaayatanadhaatuindriyasaccapa.ticcasamuppaadaadibhedaa" had to be parsed into the nouns in their correct case suffixes in the Nissaya text. A Nissaya writer is also responsible for supplying any sense-making Pali words or phrases. In case you might want to see the differences between a Nissaya text and a translation of a Pali passage, I also translated the above Section 431 of Visuddhimaggo. Translation 431. This is an elaboration. Where it is first said that the principles dividable as aggregates, venues, elements, controls, truths, dependent origination and the like are the field of wisdom, aggregates are the five aggregates, namely, matter aggregate, feeling aggregate, memory aggregate, activation aggregate, and consciousness aggregate. I discovered that it is far easier to translate a Pali work than to write a Nissaya text on it. Myanmar Pali scholars are indeed lucky to inherit the Nissaya texts written by generations after generations of Theravada Sayadaws. With regards, Suan http://www.bodhiology.org --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: Dear Suan, Thank you, it is very kind of you to offer a nissaya text, I am realy delighted. I know how busy you are, and it depends on your time. I have an idea. It is very beneficial to reflect on the five khandhas, I never have enough of this. I shall give below the passage of Vis. we also have read with Larry. op 08-11-2003 14:03 schreef abhidhammika op suanluzaw@b...: > Of course, please feel free to forward the information to Pali list > as well as to Jim. > And, I also do not forget your request to create a sample of Nissaya > text with English for you. > > If you would like to see a particular passage of Pali turned into a > Nissaya text, please let me know. N: Visuddhimagga XIV, 33 just before ruupakkhandha (and in tetx it is the end of 443); <33. aya.m pana vitthaaro, ya.m taava vutta.m ``khandhaayatanadhaatuindriyasaccapa.ticcasamuppaadaadibhedaa dhammaa bhuumii''ti, ettha khandhaati pa~nca khandhaa ruupakkhandho vedanaakkhandho sa~n~naakkhandho sa"nkhaarakkhandho vi~n~naa.nakkhandhoti.> With great appreciation. Nina. 26819 From: Date: Mon Nov 10, 2003 0:51am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Causes of Kamma Hi, Sarah (and Rob) - The notion of indirect relation is probably ill-named. What is meant is what mathematicians call the transitive closure of a relation. The idea is that if, among events A, B, C, D, E, and F, each is a condition for the occurrence of the next, then A is an "indirect" condition for the arising of F. Now, when Nyanatiloka writes “Never, for example, is any karmically wholesome or unwholesome volitional action the result of former action, being in reality itself karma,â€? my question was whether this also rules out F being volitional and A also being volitional, for, in that case, F would be a volitional action which is an indirect result of the former volitional action, A. Rob had said that accumulations are conditions for the arising of a volitional action, F, and we agreed that accumulations in turn have prior volitional actions (various A's) as conditions for their arising, making these A's "indirect" conditions for F (in the sense explained in this post, Sarah). I pointed out that this contradicts Nyanatiloka's statement. Rob then asserted that this is not a problem, because only direct relations are meant by Nyanatiloka. I presumed that Rob somehow correctly knew this to be the case, and, I thus, relented. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 26820 From: rjkjp1 Date: Mon Nov 10, 2003 6:26am Subject: Re: Nissaya Text On Section 431 In Visuddhimaggo: To Nina ---Very Nice, Suan! Robert In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "abhidhammika" wrote: > > Nissaya Text > > 431. Aya.m - This (is) , pana – on the other hand, vitthaaro – an > elaboration. Ya.m ettha – Where, vutta.m – it is said, taava – first, > ti – that, dhammaa – the principles, bhedaa – that are such > varieties as, (vaa - alternatively), bhedaa - dividable as, > khandhaa – aggregates, aayatanaani – venues, dhaatuyo – elements, > indriyaani – controls, saccaani – truths, pa.ticcasamuppaado – > dependent origination, aadi – and the like, bhuumi – the filed, > (paññaaya – of wisdom), khandhaati – aggregates are, pañca khandhaa – > the five aggregates, ti – namely, ruupakkhandho – matter aggregate, > vedanaakkhandho – feeling aggregate, saññakkhandho – memory > aggregate, sa`nkhaarakkhandho – activation aggregate, > viññaa.nakkhandho – and consciousness aggregate." > > 26821 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Mon Nov 10, 2003 9:44am Subject: Re: Accumulations - for comment/Anapanasati Hi Steve and all, I don't see how the ideas 1. "Anapanasati is difficult,difficult to develop, a field in which only the minds of Buddhas,paccekabuddhas and Buddhas sons are at home", 2. "Anapanasati is the most difficult of the 40 meditation subjects" 3. Anapanasati is for those with "great accumulations of panna and other parami" can be inferred from what the Buddha taught on mindfulness of breathing. I also have not come across in the discourses that the Buddha recommended anapanasati just for "Moha carita person". In fact, in the Anapanasati Sutta, the Buddha said: "Mindfulness of in-&-out breathing, when developed & pursued, is of great fruit, of great benefit. Mindfulness of in-&-out breathing, when developed & pursued, brings the four frames of reference to their culmination. The four frames of reference, when developed & pursued, bring the seven factors for Awakening to their culmination. The seven factors for Awakening, when developed & pursued, bring clear knowing & release to their culmination. Mindfulness of in-&-out breathing is of great fruit and benefit for anyone who develops and pursues it, not just for "Moha carita person". As I see it, when ideas regarding mindfulness of breathing, or meditation practice in general, are not consistent with what the Buddha taught, it is possible they are also at odd with one another. To me, your question 'Why then is anapanasati recommended for a "Moha carita person"?' pointed out that inconsistency. Peace, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "bodhi2500" wrote: > Hi All > [snip] 26822 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Mon Nov 10, 2003 9:59am Subject: Re: Dhamma-vinaya Hi Sukin, I have not studied the Abhidhamma Pitaka. Maybe you can tell me how the qualities of Abhidhamma Pitaka lead to dispassion, not to passion; to being unfettered, not to being fettered; to shedding, not to accumulating; to modesty, not to self-aggrandizement; to contentment, not to discontent; to seclusion, not to entanglement; to aroused persistence, not to laziness; to being unburdensome, not to being burdensome. Peace, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Sukinderpal Singh Narula" wrote: > Hi Victor, Rob M. and All, [snip] 26823 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Nov 10, 2003 10:39am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sutta: Dhamma in brief. Hi Victor, op 09-11-2003 03:16 schreef yu_zhonghao op yu_zhonghao@y...: > I would recommend the discourse > Anguttara Nikaya VIII.53 > Gotami Sutta > To Gotami N: Thanks very much. Lodewijk usually is not inclined to read suttas, but now he did read and liked it. I looked up the co: These things lead to passion, not to release, etc. the piling up of rebirth not to the dispersion thereof... Piling up, Pali aacaaya: this is another word for accumulation. The Co says that the Buddha explained the continuation of the cycle, and also the end of the cycle. This is all in the sutta, but as often is the case, the Co gives us an extra reminder. The Gotamid attained arahatship by this exhortation. We are reminded that what we learn is not theoretical, it should be verified right now. Actually here is taught in short the Dependent Origination and the reverse. So long as there are ignorance and clinging the cycle continue. Gotamid could eradicate all ignorance by right understanding. Nina. 26824 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Nov 10, 2003 10:39am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism. XIV 37 Hi Larry and all, I found the Pali, it is the second part of Tiika 37. Difficult text. I shall read it again aloud and then summarize what I think. Do Sarah and others like me to produce it line by line?? Or shall we leave it, since the translation is in this footnote? I like the end: kamma-result is exclusively the province of a Buddha's knowledge' (Pm. > 444). , kammavipaako ca sabbaso buddhaana.myeva ~naa.nassa visayoti. Good to remember when we speculate about desirable object etc. Why should we know? More important are whether kusala cittas or akusala cittas arise. More important to develop understanding of the present reality. As you will understand, I am far behind you. I have to jump! I try to translate parts of the foregoing, but only when I get the meaning more or less. I still like to try, although it is most difficult. However, in footnotes are parts done already. And after this one no commentary until Vis. 42, since it all amounts to the same for earsense, etc. But we see that also in olden times people tried to find out: which kamma produces eyesense and is it the same as the kamma that produces earsense. I asked A. Sujin once whether the same kamma kept on producing this or that, and she adviced caution in specifying. Nina. op 10-11-2003 02:45 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > > The way I read this, the gist of the commentary (note 14) is that the > eye arises because of kamma that produces all the senses or because of > kamma that produces just the eye. > "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) Ch. XIV > 37. 1. Herein, the eye's characteristic is sensitivity of primary > elements that is ready for the impact of visible data; or its > characteristic is sensitivity of primary elements originated by kamma > sourcing from desire to see.(14) Its function is to pick up [an > object](15) among visible data. It is manifested as the footing of > eye-consciousness. Its proximate cause is primary elements born of kamma > sourcing from desire to see. > ------------------ > 14. 'Here the first-mentioned characteristic of the eye is described > according to the kamma that produces a selfhood, and is common to all of > it, and this without touching on differentiation is the cause. The > second is according to the specialized kamma generated thus, 'Let my eye > be thus'. This is what they say. But it can be taken that the > first-mentioned characteristic is stated as sensitivity's interest in > lighting up its own objective fields, the five senses' state of > sensitivity being taken as a generality; and that the second is stated > as the seeing that is due to the particular division of its own cause, > the sensitivities' cause as the state of kamma being taken as a > generality or as a unity. The same method applies to the ear and so on. > 'Here it may be asked, "Is the arising of the faculties of the eye, > etc., due to kamma that is one or to kamma that is different?" Now the > ancients say, "In both ways". Herein, firstly, in the case of the > arising of an eye, etc., due to kamma that is different there is nothing > to be explained since the cause is divided up. But when their arising is > due to kamma that is one, how does there come to be differentiation > among them? It is due to dividedness in the cause too. For it is > craving, in the form of longing for this or that kind of becoming that, > itself having specific forms owing to hankering after the sense-bases > included in some kind of becoming or other, contrives, acting as > decisive-support, the specific divisions in the kamma that generates > such a kind of becoming. As soon as the kamma has acquired the > differentiation induced by that [hankering] it generates that effort > consisting in appropriate ability a multiple fruit with differentiated > essences, as though it had itself taken on a multiple form. And the > ability here need not be understood as anything other than the able > state; for it is simply the effort of producing fruit that is > differentiated by the differentiation due to the differentiation in its > cause. And the fact of this differentiating effort on the part of kamma > that is one being the cause of the multiple faculties will be dealt with > below as to logic and texts (note 21). Besides, it is told how one kind > of consciousness only is the cause of the generation of the ripe, the > unripe, the husked, and the unhusked fruit. But what is the use of > logical thinking? For the eye, etc., are the fruit of kamma; and > kamma-result is exclusively the province of a Buddha's knowledge' (Pm. > 444). > 15. Aavi~njana--'picking-up': see "aavijjhati" in P.T.S. Dict. > 26825 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Nov 10, 2003 10:39am Subject: Re: [dsg] Tiika Vis. 35 Hi Howard, op 09-11-2003 16:52 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: > ================================ > This is very clear. The secondary rupas require the > presence/foundation of the primary ones, but not vice-versa; so they are > derivative *in the > sense* of subordinatively requiring the primary rupas for their own presence. N: Yes, quite so. The four great elements condition the derived rupas they arise together with by way of conascence-condition, but there is no relation of mutuality, the derived rupas do not condition the four great elements by way of mutuality condition. H: As > far as only one at a time being experienced, I take it that the others (the > ones not being experienced) are either "subliminally" present in > consciousness, > or are not at all present in consciousness, but have all conditions in place > for their appearance, and are in "waiting mode" or are "queued up" as it were. N: I had to laugh because of queued up, there is no time for it, they are gone immediately. Thus, one of a group of rupas is experienced, and then the rupas of that group are all gone, never to come back. They are not there, then they are there, and then immediately they are gone. Moreover, rupas cannot be present in citta, citta is not a place where they could stay. Nina. 26826 From: robmoult Date: Mon Nov 10, 2003 1:19pm Subject: Re: Accumulations - for comment/Anapanasati Hi Victor and All, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "yu_zhonghao" wrote: > I also have not come across in the discourses that the Buddha > recommended anapanasati just for "Moha carita person". In fact, in > the Anapanasati Sutta, the Buddha said: > > > "Mindfulness of in-&-out breathing, when developed & pursued, is of > great fruit, of great benefit. Mindfulness of in-&-out breathing, > when developed & pursued, brings the four frames of reference to > their culmination. The four frames of reference, when developed & > pursued, bring the seven factors for Awakening to their culmination. > The seven factors for Awakening, when developed & pursued, bring > clear knowing & release to their culmination. > > > Mindfulness of in-&-out breathing is of great fruit and benefit for > anyone who develops and pursues it, not just for "Moha carita > person". > > As I see it, when ideas regarding mindfulness of breathing, or > meditation practice in general, are not consistent with what the > Buddha taught, it is possible they are also at odd with one > another. To me, your question 'Why then is anapanasati recommended > for a "Moha carita person"?' pointed out that inconsistency. Here is an interesting observation reported by John Bullit in "Beyond the Tipitaka - A Field Guide to Post-canonical Pali Literature" http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/postcanon.html "But it is noteworthy that the most significant discrepancies between the Canon and its commentaries concern meditation -- in particular, the relationship between concentration meditation and insight.[4] The question of the authority of the post-canonical texts thus remains a point of controversy within Theravada Buddhism." The footnote references p145 of "The Buddhist Religion" (fourth edition), by Richard H. Robinson and Willard L. Johnson (Belmont, California: Wadsworth, 1997) Metta, Rob M :-) 26827 From: Date: Mon Nov 10, 2003 9:46am Subject: A Request for Your Good Thoughts Hi, all - My wife's mother passed away about an hour and a quarter ago in the intensive care unit. This has been a long, difficult time ever since last December. We were with her today for hours, giving her support and love, and we were there at the time of her passing. We did our best to help her be calm and unafraid, and we said what I think was very important to say at this crucial point. It was as good a passing as could have been expected. Her name was Jeanette. If you are comfortable with doing so, I would greatly appreciate your directing thoughts of well being and welfaring to her as she continues. With much metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 26828 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Nov 10, 2003 10:39am Subject: FW: Co. Mahaaraahulovaadasutta, 23 B Co. Mahaaraahulovaadasutta, 23 B Relevant Sutta passage: seyyathaapi, raahula, aakaaso na katthaci pati.t.thito, Just as, Rahula, space does not settle anywhere, evameva kho tva.m, raahula, aakaasasama.m bhaavana.m bhaavehi. likewise, Rahula, you should cultivate the mental development that is like space. Co text: na katthaci pati.t.thitoti pathaviipabbatarukkhaadiisu ekasmimpi na pati.t.thito, As to the expression, it is nowhere established, this means, it does not settle in any place, such as on the earth, on a mountain or in a tree, yadi hi pathaviya.m pati.t.thito bhaveyya, pathaviyaa bhijjamaanaaya saheva bhijjeyya, If it would settle on the earth, and the earth would be destroyed, it would be destroyed together with it, pabbate patamaane saheva pateyya, rukkhe chijjamaane saheva chijjeyya. and evenso, when the mountain would break down it would break down together with it, and when the tree would be cut it would be destroyed together with it. English: As to the expression, it is nowhere established, this means, it does not settle in any place, such as on the earth, on a mountain or in a tree. If it would settle on the earth, and the earth would be destroyed, it would be destroyed together with it, and evenso, when the mountain would break down it would break down together with it, and when the tree would be cut it would be destroyed together with it. Subcommentary: na pati.t.thitoti na nissito na laggo. As to the expression, not established, this means, not dependent, not attached. ******* Nina. 26829 From: Sarah Date: Mon Nov 10, 2003 4:03pm Subject: Re: [dsg] A Request for Your Good Thoughts Hi Howard, Thank you for sharing this news so soon. Our best wishes go out to Jeanette (as she was known) and also to you and Rita. we're very happy to hear that you were both able to give so much support and love and that it was such a peaceful parting. She was indeed blessed to have you for a son-in-law and Rita for her daughter. With metta to you both, Sarah & Jon ============== 26830 From: Date: Mon Nov 10, 2003 4:30pm Subject: Re: [dsg] earth, water, fire, air Hi Sarah, In case you missed it, here is another quote for your collection on movement. It is a reference that came up in Vism XIV 35. I understand "successive arising" to mean sequential regeneration of a 4 element group continuum in slightly different locations. Movement is an illusion. Is that agreeable? ------------------------ Vism XI 93: The air element has the characteristic of distending. Its fuction is to cause motion. It is manifested as conveying. (37) This is how they should be given attention by characteristic, and so on. [366] (37) "Abhiniihara"--'conveying': not in this sense in P.T.S. Dict. ' "Conveying" is acting as cause for the successive arising at adjacent locations (desantaruppatti) of the conglomeration of elements (bhuuta-sa.nghaata)' (Pm.363). Elsewhere Pm. (p.359) says of the air element: ' "It blows" (par.87): it is stirred; the meaning is that the conglomeration of elements is made to move (go) by its action as cause for successive arising at adjacent locations (points)', and 'Propelling (samabbhaahana) is the act of causing the successive arising at adjacent locations of material groups (ruupa-kalaapa)' (p.362). Larry 26831 From: buddhatrue Date: Mon Nov 10, 2003 11:30am Subject: Re: Accumulations - for comment/Anapanasati --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "yu_zhonghao" wrote: > Hi Steve and all, > > I don't see how the ideas > Hi Victor, You make some very good points. I completely agree with you. Again, we are all seeing this idea that mindfulness of breathing (Anapanasati) is nearly impossible for anyone to do unless they are already a Buddha or close to being one arising in this group. Not only does this not make any sense- what would be the point of doing it if you are already enlightened? Consciousness would be continually present then- it also doesn't correspond with what the Buddha taught in the suttas. When I asked Nina this question in a previous post (26440), she replied, "In the "Path of Purity" by Buddhaghosa. It is explained that we should not take it lightly." Now I am reading this quote by Steve from an unidentified source: "Anapanasati is difficult,difficult to develop, a field in which only the minds of Buddhas,paccekabuddhas and Buddhas sons are at home". We have gone from `it shouldn't be taken lightly' to `it is nearly impossible to do'. This is how rumors get started. Personally, this isn't important to me. I am not confused about the issue. I know that mindfulness of breathing is what the Buddha recommended and taught for all unenlightened beings. Even if one should choose other meditation objects later on, a good foundation of mindfulness of breathing is essential for mindfulness in everyday life. I am thinking more for those members who can be swayed by such authoritative statements which are simply false. We have a responsibility beyond ourselves, I think. This issue needs to be cleared up once and for all if possible. Metta, James 26832 From: shakti Date: Mon Nov 10, 2003 4:50pm Subject: Re: [dsg] A Request for Your Good Thoughts Dear Howard, Thank you for sharing the parting of your mother in law. How fortunate that you were able to offer so much love and support to her in her last days. It is always such a gift to be able to be with someone when they die. My thoughts and good wishes go out to Jeanette, you and your family. May you all be well and grow in love and understanding during this difficult time. With metta, Shakti upasaka@a... wrote: Hi, all - My wife's mother passed away about an hour and a quarter ago in the intensive care unit. This has been a long, difficult time ever since last December. We were with her today for hours, giving her support and love, and we were there at the time of her passing. We did our best to help her be calm and unafraid, and we said what I think was very important to say at this crucial point. It was as good a passing as could have been expected. Her name was Jeanette. If you are comfortable with doing so, I would greatly appreciate your directing thoughts of well being and welfaring to her as she continues. With much metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 26833 From: nordwest Date: Mon Nov 10, 2003 3:29pm Subject: Re: [dsg] A Request for Your Good Thoughts The NEMBUTSU is with her. Gassho, Thomas upasaka@a... wrote: Hi, all - My wife's mother passed away about an hour and a quarter ago in the intensive care unit. This has been a long, difficult time ever since last December. We were with her today for hours, giving her support and love, and we were there at the time of her passing. We did our best to help her be calm and unafraid, and we said what I think was very important to say at this crucial point. It was as good a passing as could have been expected. Her name was Jeanette. If you are comfortable with doing so, I would greatly appreciate your directing thoughts of well being and welfaring to her as she continues. With much metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 26835 From: Julie, Steve and Kevin Date: Mon Nov 10, 2003 8:26pm Subject: RE: Buddhism v Psychology Hi Sarah and dsg, I noticed that you said you "trained as a psychologist" in one of the posts. I'm interested in this area and may (depending on many things!!!!!!) do some study along these lines with the "plan" of doing some counselling at some stage. It's all talk at the moment..... I've been wondering how well psychology and Buddhism go together. On the surface they look to compliment each other but the more I look into the Abhidhamma etc, the idea of "self" awareness (psychology) and awareness (buddhism) seem to contradict. One is interested in our past and present stories the other is interested in this utlimate present reality, nothing more, nothing less. Am I on the right track? Can they compliment each other? What do you think? See Ya Julie 26836 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Nov 10, 2003 9:18pm Subject: nissaya text Dear Suan, this is very interesting. I noticed that you took ettha and tied it to yam. I would never have thought of that! It gives us a feel of the way of Nissaya texts. And then, giving the right cases of the parts in the compound, so that we know at once what noun of what gender it is. A great help for the Pali student. Is it all right to frwd it to my friends of the Pali list? Thank you very much, Nina. op 10-11-2003 14:44 schreef abhidhammika op suanluzaw@b...: > > The following is the Pali passage that Nina provided. It is from > Section 431 in Visuddhimaggo. 26837 From: Andrew Date: Mon Nov 10, 2003 9:23pm Subject: Worry Hello all A big welcome home to all the Myanmar-ites. Great photos! At the risk of re-activating that "pigs eating dung" thread, I note that most people feel quite happy about the Dhamma being in line with commonsense ie good things being kusala and bad things being akusala etc. In my Bhikkhu Bodhi edited Abhidhammattha Sangaha, worry (kukkucca) is defined as "worry or remorse after having done wrong" (p 84). On the one hand, I can see that this type of worry is a gross form of dukkha and fittingly akusala. On the other hand, it seems to be a good support for shame and fear of wrongdoing, both beautiful cetasikas. Both shame and worry are backward-looking (ie into past events), so why is one kusala and the other akusala? What about people who do wrong and have no worry or shame at all? Do such people exist or is it merely that their worry is too fleeting to be noticed by themselves or other worldlings? Sorry to be a worrywort but any thoughts on the above would be very soothing. With metta Andrew 26838 From: robmoult Date: Mon Nov 10, 2003 11:27pm Subject: Re: A Request for Your Good Thoughts Hi Howard, Last night, I wasn't feeling too well. I still wasn't feeling all that well this morning, so I decided to stay home from work for the morning. I decided to lie in bed and feel sorry for myself; many men are like babies when they get sick :-) Early this morning, I got out of bed to read the latest on DSG. I read your message about the passing away of your mother-in-law and knew what I wanted to do. It is amazing how kusala thoughts push aside sickness. Last year, I printed 1000 copies of Nina's "Buddhism in Daily Life" book for free distribution. It was an overwhelming success; demand far outstripped supply. We recently printed another 2200 copies. The Chief Reverend at our local temple had asked for more copies to distribute and so I decided to go to the temple and offer the books as dana so that I could share the merit with your mother-in-law. Sabbadanam dhammadanam jinati: "The gift of the Dhamma excels all other gifts". I suspect that Nina has no idea how much good kamma she has created through her writings. On the way to the temple, my mind was exited with the prospect of performing this dana. I then noticed that a taxi had struck a motorcyclist and they were at the side of the road. The motorcyclist looked as though he was in pain. This image pushed aside my excitement and I reflected with calm upekkha, "all beings are heirs to their kamma". When I got to the temple, I realized that there was a novitiate programme going on. In Buddhist countries, youths spend one or two weeks living like monks so that they better appreciate the monastic lifestyle. There were about 100 youths, mainly between ten to fifteen years of age, but some in their later teens and a few adults. The Chief Reverend asked me to give an impromptu Dhamma talk on the Abhidhamma for about an hour. For about the duration of one citta process, I considered talking about the inherent characteristics of rupa :-) , but then decided to talk about accumulations. What a fantastic opportunity to create even more merit to share with your mother-in-law! I gave each of the novitiates a copy of Nina's book and left a few more for distribution. I have posted a picture of the event in the DSG photo album (Members Group); I am the one in the back row dressed in dark blue among the sea of orange (brown for the females). I also uploaded a photo of myself with two young upasakas holding Nina's book, "Buddhism in Daily Life". As I explained to the upasakas, if you want to build accumulations from wholesome deeds, you should spend time planning it, you should put your heart into it when you do it, you should transfer the merit accumulated and you should review the event again later. All of these activities are wholesome and contribute to creating wholesome accumulations. Howard, I actually used my current action as an example and I told them about the death of your mother-in-law being a condition; I even used the term pakatupanissaya :-) (natural decisive support condition). After the talk, the Chief Reverend asked the name of your mother-in- law, your name and your wife's name. We (just the two of us) did a wonderful transferrence of merit ceremony. In the Sri Lankan tradition, when one transfers merit (or does some other meritorious deed), you are given a coloured string that has been blessed by a monk. People tie this string around their wrist and it acts as a condition to cause one to recall the good deed that one has done. I received a string from Chief Reverend and I asked him to specially bless another one for you and one for your wife, Rita. Please send me your snail mail address off-list so that I can send them to you. You don't have to wear this string, but please put it in a place where you can see it from time to time (I have one tied around my rear-view mirror in my car) and reflect on the good things that you have done and transfer the merit from these good deeds to your mother-in-law. Howard, I have spent most of the day thinking about your mother-in- law and, as mentioned in the Bhumija Sutta (Mn126), trying to put into practice my good intentions. I sincerely hope that it helps. Metta and Karuna, Rob M :-) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > My wife's mother passed away about an hour and a quarter ago in the > intensive care unit. This has been a long, difficult time ever since last > December. We were with her today for hours, giving her support and love, and we were > there at the time of her passing. We did our best to help her be calm and > unafraid, and we said what I think was very important to say at this crucial > point. It was as good a passing as could have been expected. Her name was > Jeanette. If you are comfortable with doing so, I would greatly appreciate your > directing thoughts of well being and welfaring to her as she continues. 26839 From: buddhatrue Date: Mon Nov 10, 2003 11:34pm Subject: Re: Accumulations - for comment/Anapanasati --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" wrote: > > Here is an interesting observation reported by John Bullit > in "Beyond the Tipitaka - A Field Guide to Post-canonical Pali > Literature" > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/postcanon.html > > "But it is noteworthy that the most significant discrepancies > between the Canon and its commentaries concern meditation -- in > particular, the relationship between concentration meditation and > insight.[4] The question of the authority of the post-canonical > texts thus remains a point of controversy within Theravada Buddhism." > > The footnote references p145 of "The Buddhist Religion" (fourth > edition), by Richard H. Robinson and Willard L. Johnson (Belmont, > California: Wadsworth, 1997) > > Metta, > Rob M :-) Hi Rob M., Thank you for this informative link. I want to quote the section that immediately precedes the section that you quoted: "And what of their first-hand understanding of Dhamma: if the commentators were scholars first and foremost, would they have had sufficient meditative experience to write with authority on the subject of meditation? This is more problematic. Perhaps commentators like Buddhaghosa had enough time (and accumulated merit) both for mastering meditation and for their impressive scholarly pursuits; we will never know." Now, my question is: If Buddhaghosa was simply translating the original commentaries of Sri Lanka from Sinhala into Pali, why would he need to know anything about meditation? I think it becomes more apparent that Buddhaghosa didn't just translate, he also extrapolated his own discourse as he saw fit. Otherwise there wouldn't be this discrepancy between meditation as presented in the suttas and meditation as presented in the commentaries. Metta, James 26840 From: Sarah Date: Tue Nov 11, 2003 0:17am Subject: Re: [dsg] RE: Buddhism v Psychology Hi Julie, Good to hear from you;-) I remember hearing of some good programmes in Melbourne and I’d encourage you. I think any study or work one does will be assisted by some understanding of Buddhism. ..... >I've been wondering how well > psychology and Buddhism go together. <..> .... I think your comments are pretty good but I don’t think there needs to be any conflict. After I started studying the Abhidhamma, I completely lost interest in aspects of psychology which seemed to be following wrong views and though I continued to be a member of psychological societies and to attend meetings, read publications, liaise with schools and so on until recently, I ignored anything which didn’t ‘compliment’. Actually, I think the little Abhidhamma knowledge I’ve had has made it all a lot, lot simpler to weed out what’s right and wrong along the way, useful and useless and to hopefully ensure I’m not giving erroneous advice (Victor might not agree;-)). I’m very, very grateful that I came across Buddhism and Abhidhamma in particular when I did. Mainly I just see science and psychology as being limited by their own obvious parameters rather than ‘wrong’. Different goals as you mentioned. Like Nina said about science, I tend to compartmentalise completely my knowledge of psychology and Buddhism. I’ve never tried to make them say the ‘same’ or ever thought they should or ever had any problems in this regard. Most my work in Hong Kong has been in practical language/linguistic related areas, working with schools and referrals - assessments, gifted students, dyslexia, English as a 2nd/3rd/4th language and associated problems, group work etc etc. Ages ago in London, I used to do counselling work in psychiatric centres and with delinquent adolescents - in my case very strongly influenced by what I understood from the Dhamma. Now I’m almost retired (or am taking my first break in a long while) and have recently given up all my memberships, partly because of being busy with DSG;-) I’ve stopped getting psychology journals, have stopped liaising actively with schools and am happily out of date. It’s funny, but even before I’d heard anything about Buddhism, what I had most difficulty with when I was studying psychology, was the compulsory experimentation component which at that time included compulsory animal (rat and hamster) experiments which I stongly objected to. I’m sure things have changed in 30yrs in this regard;-)I don’t think I ever had any other problems and even at that time, broad philosophical appraoches and questioning approaches were welcomed. I also pursued higher studies in business psychology at a time that I was doing quite a bit of corporate work - no conflict like RobM always stresses. Anything you study and any papers you write and any counselling you provide will be greatly enhanced by your Abhidhamma studies and understanding, as I see it Julie. Others like Christine who also provide counselling services may be able to give further advice and comments, I hope. Not sure if this ramble helps. with metta, Sarah ====== 26841 From: Sarah Date: Tue Nov 11, 2003 0:22am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Accumulations - for comment/Anapanasati Hi RobM & All, --- robmoult wrote: > Here is an interesting observation reported by John Bullit > in "Beyond the Tipitaka - A Field Guide to Post-canonical Pali > Literature" > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/postcanon.html > > "But it is noteworthy that the most significant discrepancies > between the Canon and its commentaries concern meditation -- in > particular, the relationship between concentration meditation and > insight.[4] The question of the authority of the post-canonical > texts thus remains a point of controversy within Theravada Buddhism." .... "The most significant discrepancies" according to whom? Presumably, not according to the ancient commentators;-) Perhaps it depends on how 'meditation' is understood by modern commentators. Metta, Sarah ===== 26842 From: robmoult Date: Tue Nov 11, 2003 0:29am Subject: Re: Accumulations - for comment/Anapanasati Hi James, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: > Now, my question is: If Buddhaghosa was simply translating the > original commentaries of Sri Lanka from Sinhala into Pali, why would > he need to know anything about meditation? I think it becomes more > apparent that Buddhaghosa didn't just translate, he also extrapolated > his own discourse as he saw fit. Otherwise there wouldn't be this > discrepancy between meditation as presented in the suttas and > meditation as presented in the commentaries. I believe that a good compiler / tanslator needs to have subject matter expertise. They are constantly faced with questions, "what is the best word to use in this case?", "how to capture the feeling, not just the words of the text?", "which ideas to include, which to cut out?", "how to handle differences between two texts?". There is no way that Buddhaghosa could do his job without some "interpolation"; but what of extrapolation? This particular thread started because I raised the topic of carita. Here are a couple of sections of Buddhaghosa's Visuddhimagga on this subject that show how Buddhaghosa dealt with extrapolation: (III, 74) "... There are six kinds of temperament, that is, greedy temperament, hating temperament, deluded temperament, faithful temperament, intelligent temperament and speculative temperament. Some would have fourteen..." This is followed by an explanation of why Buddaghosa believes that six is more appropriate than fourteen. "Some" mentioned by Buddhaghosa is the Elder Upatissa, author of the Vimuttimagga (Path of Freedom). Interesting, Anuruddha agreed with Buddhaghosa (six kinds) in the Abhidhammatthasangaha but Sumangala, the author of the Abhidhammatthavibhavini, the commentary to the Abhidhammatthasangaha, expanded the number to 63 kinds. If Venerables such as these cannot agree, what are we to do? (III, 96) Previous to this, the text describes the ways of knowing a person's temperament by looking at the way that they walk, the way that they stand, the way that they eat, etc. "...However, these directions for recognizing the temperaments have not been handed down in their entirety in either the text or commentaries; they are only expressed according to the opinion of the teachers and cannot therefore be treated as authentic..." From these two examples, it is seen that Buddhaghosa is careful about interserting his opinions and clearly identifies his own opinions when he inserts them. These two examples do not prove that the whole of Buddhaghosa's writings are free from hidden opinions, but they do indicate that Buddhaghosa was aware of the problem. Metta, Rob M :-) 26843 From: robmoult Date: Tue Nov 11, 2003 0:34am Subject: [dsg] Re: Accumulations - for comment/Anapanasati Hi Sarah, I just sent a post to James highlighting a difference between the various commentators. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > "The most significant discrepancies" according to whom? > > Presumably, not according to the ancient commentators;-) > > Perhaps it depends on how 'meditation' is understood by modern > commentators. Metta, Rob M :-) 26844 From: Sarah Date: Tue Nov 11, 2003 0:42am Subject: Re: [dsg] Worry Hi Andrew, I hope others will add more, but I can't resist saying it's good to talk to you again;-) Briefly: --- Andrew wrote: > In my Bhikkhu Bodhi edited Abhidhammattha Sangaha, worry (kukkucca) > is defined as "worry or remorse after having done wrong" (p 84). On > the one hand, I can see that this type of worry is a gross form of > dukkha and fittingly akusala. > On the other hand, it seems to be a good support for shame and fear > of wrongdoing, both beautiful cetasikas. > Both shame and worry are backward-looking (ie into past events), so > why is one kusala and the other akusala? ..... I see shame and fear of wrongdoing (hiri and ottapa) to relate to the present moment and to the avoidance or abstention of akusala at this time. They arise with all beautiful cittas. I like the word 'scrupulous'. When there is sila, for example the abstaining from wrong speech or action as we discussed before, there are scruples and the mental states are scrupulous about being 'clean'. ..... > What about people who do wrong and have no worry or shame at all? Do > such people exist or is it merely that their worry is too fleeting to > be noticed by themselves or other worldlings? ... No people existing of course and the different wholesome and unwholesome mental states that follow change all the time. Conditions again. There may be scruples or shame and yet still further wrong deeds performed. This is why it's so difficult to know the 'carita' or type, because all types follow in succession all the time, I think. Kusala akusala kusala akusala. Often the wrong deeds or worry are known, but they're still taken for self and something lasting. .... > Sorry to be a worrywort but any thoughts on the above would be very > soothing. With metta .... Now any concern about being a worrywort is likely to be more akusala;-) Not sure if this is soothing. Let us know. Glad to hear you're studying CMA, Andrew. I know you're studying Ethics - maybe you have some input into Julie's Qu about any conflicts in the study with Buddhism and Abhidhamma in particular. I'm sure you could add some helpful comments for her. Metta, Sarah p.s Glad you liked the Myanmar pix and tales. Perhaps we could encourage you and your wife to join us in Asia one day. ======= 26845 From: Sarah Date: Tue Nov 11, 2003 0:45am Subject: Re: [dsg] earth, water, fire, air Hi Larry, --- LBIDD@w... wrote: > Hi Sarah, > > In case you missed it, here is another quote for your collection on > movement. It is a reference that came up in Vism XIV 35. I understand > "successive arising" to mean sequential regeneration of a 4 element > group continuum in slightly different locations. Movement is an > illusion. Is that agreeable? .... Very agreeable & excellent quote. Much appreciation for all your work on the Vism threads. Metta, Sarah ===== 26847 From: Sarah Date: Tue Nov 11, 2003 1:13am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism. XIV 37 Hi Nina & Howard, --- nina van gorkom wrote: > Hi Larry and all, > I found the Pali, it is the second part of Tiika 37. Difficult text. I > shall > read it again aloud and then summarize what I think. Do Sarah and others > like me to produce it line by line?? Or shall we leave it, since the > translation is in this footnote? > I like the end: kamma-result is exclusively the province of a Buddha's > knowledge' (Pm. .... Yes, good reminder at the end. I usually run a few days behind on the Vism threads as I leave them til I have enough time to read carefully. I appreciate your line by line translations, but I think it just depends on you. The summaries are very helpful too. ***** There is so much wealth in these passages such as all the conditions for seeing consciousness to arise. We can say it's the result of kamma, but without eye-base and visible object, mental factors including contact and past craving which conditioned this rebirth, there'd be no seeing at all. Many other natural decisive and other conditions too. Howard, according to mathematical theories, I understand some of these conditions, such as the past craving could be referred to as 'indirect conditions', though I haven't seen this term used in this context. Everything is included in the 24 paccaya, in pakatupanissaya paccaya and other conditions. Nyantiloka's dictionary definition about kamma was distinguishing between vipaka (result of kamma) and new kamma (cetana cetasika) as I understood. So often people have the idea of difficulties and so on as being the direct result of kamma, so he was clarifying the distinction as RobM explained. ***** From snipped Vism passage: >For it is > craving, in the form of longing for this or that kind of becoming that, > itself having specific forms owing to hankering after the sense-bases > included in some kind of becoming or other, contrives, acting as > decisive-support, the specific divisions in the kamma that generates > such a kind of becoming. ***** Nina, I asked about ‘pre-craving’ or purima tanha and was reminded that anything can be a condition, not just in the last life, but over the past aeons and even now. I also note more and more how similar our questions are to those raised in the old days. I think we find this in all the Tipitaka texts and commentaries. Same realities, same wrong views. Metta, Sarah ====== 26848 From: Sarah Date: Tue Nov 11, 2003 1:27am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: A Request for Your Good Thoughts Hi RobM (& Howard), --- robmoult wrote: <..> > Last year, I printed 1000 copies of Nina's "Buddhism in Daily Life" > book for free distribution. It was an overwhelming success; demand > far outstripped supply. We recently printed another 2200 copies. The > Chief Reverend at our local temple had asked for more copies to > distribute and so I decided to go to the temple and offer the books > as dana so that I could share the merit with your mother-in-law. > Sabbadanam dhammadanam jinati: "The gift of the Dhamma excels all > other gifts". I suspect that Nina has no idea how much good kamma > she has created through her writings. <..> I just finished typing and went to print out posts from the day to read later with Jon. As I came across this one of yours, I was moved to tears. I know your kind deeds will mean a tremendous amount to Howard and his wife too. You are a truly a good friend to us all in time of need and as an inspiration, Rob. Anumodana to you, the Chief Reverend and also your family who support you too. Metta, Sarah ====== 26849 From: buddhatrue Date: Tue Nov 11, 2003 1:34am Subject: Re: Accumulations - for comment/Anapanasati --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" wrote: > Hi James, I believe that a good compiler / tanslator needs to have subject > matter expertise. They are constantly faced with questions, "what is > the best word to use in this case?", "how to capture the feeling, > not just the words of the text?", "which ideas to include, which to > cut out?", "how to handle differences between two texts?". > > There is no way that Buddhaghosa could do his job without > some "interpolation"; but what of extrapolation? Hi Rob M., I believe that a translation should be as unbiased as possible. That wouldn't include cutting anything out or deciding how best to demonstrate the `feeling' of the text. Anyone who considers himself an `expert' with his own ideas of the subject matter shouldn't be a translator really; he should be an original author. Unfortunately we can't know how close Buddhaghosa was to the original texts because as soon as he was done translating them, they `disappeared'. Sarah claimed in a previous post (sorry, don't have the number), that they disappeared because of discontinued use. Now, how likely is that? Consider this information from the article we have been discussing: "In the early decades of the 1st c. BCE in Sri Lanka -- then the hub of Theravada Buddhist scholarship and monastic training -- several forces combined that would threaten the continuity of the ancient oral tradition by which the Pali Tipitaka had been passed down from one generation of monks to the next. A rebellion against the king and invasions from south India forced many monks to flee the island. At the same time a famine of unprecedented proportions descended on the island for a dozen years. The commentaries recount heroic stories of monks who, fearing that the treasure of the Tipitaka might forever be lost, retreated to the relative safety of the south coast, where they survived only on roots and leaves, reciting the texts amongst themselves day and night. The continuity of the Tipitaka hung by a thread: at one point only one monk was able to recite the Niddesa." The monks of Sri Lanka worked so hard to preserve the texts, a history of monks practically starving in that pursuit, and then after Buddhaghosa translates the commentaries they just `lose' the originals? I, for one, don't believe that. Metta, James 26850 From: Sukinderpal Singh Narula Date: Tue Nov 11, 2003 2:37am Subject: Re: Dhamma-vinaya Hi Victor, > I have not studied the Abhidhamma Pitaka. Maybe you can tell me how > the qualities of Abhidhamma Pitaka lead to dispassion, not to > passion; to being unfettered, not to being fettered; to shedding, > not to accumulating; to modesty, not to self-aggrandizement; to > contentment, not to discontent; to seclusion, not to entanglement; > to aroused persistence, not to laziness; to being unburdensome, not > to being burdensome. :-)I was hoping you wouldn't direct the question back to me. But I had several reasons for asking you as I did. You were the one to initiate this line of inquiry. I have the impression that you are more analytic and scholarly than I am, so I thought that you should take the lead and I follow you. I like to learn more about your background and reason for not believing in the Abhidhamma. I was hoping others would also participate so that I could learn more about the way they view the Abhidhamma in particular and the Teachings in general, and here it does not matter who it is, and whether they are pro Abhidhamma or not. Anyway, since you are not willing to discuss the Abhidhamma, because you are not versed in it, (and I don't believe I am much better than you in this regard, if at all), could you then do so with reference to the Suttas? In other words, how according to you does the Buddha's Teachings as taught in the Suttas, "lead to dispassion, not to passion; to being unfettered, not to being fettered; to shedding, not to accumulating; to modesty, not to self-aggrandizement; to contentment, not to discontent; to seclusion, not to entanglement; to aroused persistence, not to laziness; to being unburdensome, not to being burdensome"? Particularly if you could, apply the same question to the practice of formal meditation! How does formal meditation lead to dispassion etc.? Actually, I do not quite like to ask myself such questions, nor do I think it is particularly useful to ask others the same, i.e. taking into consideration my own very weak understanding. Particular reminders are already so difficult to see each time someone mentions them, how much more so would it be when considering such a `general view'. In me it would breed much theorizing and papanca, which I already have too much of. However, I would like to mention here with regard to my impression of Abhidhamma that its study deals with "present realities". And this I think, is more important that anything else. It does not matter what the labels are used, as long as they lead to `what can be observed in the moment'. And even if it is still only theory, because accumulated panna is not strong enough to condition `practice', this theory makes more sense than anything else I have ever encountered. In fact with this understanding in mind, I get the impression increasingly, that to think in terms of `doing' something for future results would be from `wrong thinking', `misdirected thoughts'. It is possible that you think that `theory' or `pariyatti', is just a lot of words, words that `hinder' direct understanding instead of leading to it. But as I have said before, my own understanding about `theory' is that it is not the `words' that matter, but the understanding of what they mean. Once there is the understanding, then `words' become an ally instead of a hindrance. Without the `understanding', yes, it would be quite useless. However the important thing to remember is not about the `pro' as against the `con', this is in fact a minor and quite obvious point anyway. What is hard to appreciate, being subtle, is that `theory' is a necessary starting point. And this theory being equivalent to a particular level of `understanding', is what `conditions' the successive levels of the same. There is *no* other way. However there is no self who decides to `apply' or `let go' of theory. Lobha is so pervasive and the `self' seeks results, and in the process it is attracted by what `seems' to work and is within `self's' reach. Of course, an Abhidhammist also has an equal tendency to lobha, which amongst other things, is the habit of `labeling', resting upon the perceived ability to identify experiences. This is something which happens to me all the time and perhaps this is one thing that strikes someone like you Victor, as being particularly inhibiting. Again this is why it is so important to discuss with wise friends. ;-) Have I lead you far enough. ;-) Look forward to your response. Metta, Sukin. 26851 From: htootintnaing Date: Tue Nov 11, 2003 3:25am Subject: Re: A Request for Your Good Thoughts Dear Howard and family, It is a hard time at such particular moment. Anyone of worldly people will suffer at such a time. To have support at this time is essential. Could you please give my compassion to all members of your family. Suffering expands because of spreading mind. This spreading mind can be hit away by concentrating mind. I understand the situation. It is a hard time. Spreading mind helps angry mind which are grief reactions. To lessen grief reactions, concentrating mind will help you and your family. What should be concentrated at this moment and at such a hard time. She did such and such good deeds and merit. She deserves such a good becoming. You and your family are doing good deeds and meritorious things at this time. May they all go to her. Good thoughts will replace negative thoughts such as great loss which again will thrown away losers' mind and their mind become spreading mind. As you requested for good thoughts, thoughts about her good things, thoughts about your actions for her and emotional support of Acariyas nearby ( (Bhantes ) will all accumulate and will become concentrating mind. This will ease away greaf reactions. May she arise in higher realm. May you and your family feel calm and do good meritorious deeds for her and may they go to her. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing -------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, all - > > My wife's mother passed away about an hour and a quarter ago in the > intensive care unit. This has been a long, difficult time ever since last > December. We were with her today for hours, giving her support and love, and we were > there at the time of her passing. We did our best to help her be calm and > unafraid, and we said what I think was very important to say at this crucial > point. It was as good a passing as could have been expected. Her name was > Jeanette. If you are comfortable with doing so, I would greatly appreciate your > directing thoughts of well being and welfaring to her as she continues. > > With much metta, > Howard 26852 From: Date: Tue Nov 11, 2003 0:28am Subject: Many Thanks To my good DSG friends whose received posts are copied below (in no intended order), to all those who have written but whose posts haven't yet been received in my in-box, and to all those others who have offered support in their hearts and minds (the most important places of all), I am keenly aware of the remarkable good will and kindness that prevails here on DSG, and my wife and I are very grateful for your metta and karuna. With metta, Howard ____________________________________________ Hello Howard, Rita and family, Howard - thank you for telling us about the passing of Jeannette. May we all be so fortunate at the time of our faring-on as to be surrounded by the love, support and compassionate understanding of good people. I am holding you and your Lady Wife in my thoughts, and think of Jeannette with good wishes in her continuing. metta and peace, Christine -------------------- _____________________________________________ Hi Howard, Thank you for sharing this news so soon. Our best wishes go out to Jeanette (as she was known) and also to you and Rita. we're very happy to hear that you were both able to give so much support and love and that it was such a peaceful parting. She was indeed blessed to have you for a son-in-law and Rita for her daughter. With metta to you both, Sarah & Jon ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ Dear Howard, Thank you for sharing the parting of your mother in law. How fortunate that you were able to offer so much love and support to her in her last days. It is always such a gift to be able to be with someone when they die. My thoughts and good wishes go out to Jeanette, you and your family. May you all be well and grow in love and understanding during this difficult time. With metta, Shakti ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 26853 From: rjkjp1 Date: Tue Nov 11, 2003 5:42am Subject: Re: Accumulations - for comment/Anapanasati --- Dear Steve, I will write some details about this in a day or 2 when I have some free time. In the meanwhile it is worth knowing that anapanasati is suitable for both mohacarita as RoBM mentioned and also the vitakkacaritassa (discursive or investigative ) type, which Rob didnt mention I think. Note that anapanasati is the meditaion which especially stills vitakka and vicara, which both types have a lot of and which must be dropped in the higher stages of jhana. RobertK In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "bodhi2500" wrote: > Hi All > > Rob Moult wrote: > > > Carita (Temperament) > > ==================== > To ensure progress, it is important > > that a meditation subject be selected to match the meditator's > > carita. It is possible for an individual to have a combination of > > caritas. > snip> > > - Moha-carita (deluded; propensity to delusion and superstition): > > Breathing > snip> > > A moha-carita person is associated with ignorance, delusion and > > forgetfulness. He is usually perplexed and confused. He cannot > > distinguish between right and wrong, good and bad. He is incapable > > of making his own judgments, so he follows the opinion of others in > > denouncing or praising someone. Since he is devoid of sati and > panna > > (wisdom) he wastes his time by being lazy, indolent and skeptical. > > He is the victim of sloth and torpor. Delusion vacillates due to > > superficiality while pondering vacillates due to conjecturing. Like > > moha-carita, the vitakka-carita person also lives in the way of > > uncertainty and skepticism. He is indolent and incapable of doing > > moral deeds. He indulges in useless babble, speculation and > > imagination, so he becomes a useless person, squandering his time. > > Metta, > > Rob M :-) > > > It is said, "Anapanasati is difficult,difficult to develop, a field > in which only the minds of Buddhas,paccekabuddhas and Buddhas sons > are at home" and "The most difficult of the 40 meditation subjects" > and that anapanasati is for those with "great accumulations of panna > and other parami". > > Why then is anapanasati recommended for a "Moha carita person"? > > What is the definition of "Buddhas sons"? > > Thankyou > Steve 26854 From: abhidhammika Date: Tue Nov 11, 2003 6:05am Subject: Re: nissaya text : To Nina Dear Nina How are you? Please feel free to forward my "Nissya Text" post to Pali List. And, of course, this present post as well if you want to. The short Nissaya text I wrote was merely a sample. If I (or someone) were to write a new Nissaya on Visuddhimaggo, I will also have to thoroughly consult the existing Nissaya texts. As I write my version of Nissaya along, I would need to discuss any discrepancies between mine and previous Nissaya texts. If there were disagreements, it is the responsiblity of a new Nissaya writer to argue why, and argue with utmost respect for the previous Nissaya writers. Sometimes, the new Nissaya writer may simply mention what previous Nissaya texts wrote - alongside his preferred version, and let the readers choose. In short, a new Nissaya writer is not merely a writer, but also needs to take on the role of a critical editor of the previous works. And these types of critical editing of the previous Nissaya texts are done, (not out of ego as among some university academics), but out of the need for advancement of exhaustic Pali scholarship. The tradition of writing new Nissaya texts on Pali Tipi.taka, commentaries, subcommentaries and any related works will remain forever in Myanmar in order to keep up with future changes in Burmese language and its future speakers or readers, if not for any thing else. Modern Myanmar Sayadaws such as Mahagandhayon Sayadaw and Mahasi Sayadaw wrote new Nissaya texts because they saw the need to update Burmese language used in Nissaya texts for the convenient understanding of modern Burmese readers. When I wrote a sample Nissaya text on the Pali passage you gave, I did so without a chance to consult the existing Nissaya texts on Vissudhumaggo. Nor have I "The Path Of Purity" done by U Pe Maung Tin. When I come to have Pyi Sayadaw's Nissaya texts on Vissudhimaggo, I will write something if there were differences between mine and Sayadaw's. Yes, I linked "yam" and "ettha". I believe that a traditional Nissaya text would treat "yam" as "yattha" by looking at "ettha", and possibly rewrote "yam" as "yattha". Even though I did not rewrite "yam" as "yattha", I also translated "yam" as "where" clause (yattha clause) by looking at "ettha". I merely placed "yam" and "ettha" side by side so that you could trace the workings of the original Pali terms. This morning (11-11-2003), I checked N(y)aa.namoli's "Path Of Purification" and noticed that he did not translate "Ayam pana vitthaaro". And he translated "yam" as "when" clause (as though "yasmim" clause), and separately translated "ettha" as "here" adverb later. If you have "The Path Of Purity", please ckeck how U Pe Maung Tin translated the Section 431 of Vissudhimaggo you gave. I find that translation of "yam taava vuttam" as "where" clase gives us neat and natural English. And fewer words because the "where" clause takes care of "ettha" ("here" adverb). With regards, Suan http://www.bodhiology.org --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: Dear Suan, this is very interesting. I noticed that you took ettha and tied it to yam. I would never have thought of that! It gives us a feel of the way of Nissaya texts. And then, giving the right cases of the parts in the compound, so that we know at once what noun of what gender it is. A great help for the Pali student. Is it all right to frwd it to my friends of the Pali list? Thank you very much, Nina. 26855 From: Date: Tue Nov 11, 2003 1:07am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: A Request for Your Good Thoughts Dear Rob - I received this post of yours after I sent a somewhat general reply of thanks DSG members, and you were not explicitly included in that post of mine. But your response is so special that I am happy for the opportunity to thank you specially. You are a wonderful friend, and a Buddhist who lives his Buddhism in an unusual and admirable manner. I include a couple additional comments below, in context. In a message dated 11/11/03 8:16:41 AM Eastern Standard Time, rob.moult@j... writes: > Hi Howard, > > Last night, I wasn't feeling too well. I still wasn't feeling all > that well this morning, so I decided to stay home from work for the > morning. I decided to lie in bed and feel sorry for myself; many men > are like babies when they get sick :-) > > Early this morning, I got out of bed to read the latest on DSG. I > read your message about the passing away of your mother-in-law and > knew what I wanted to do. It is amazing how kusala thoughts push > aside sickness. > > Last year, I printed 1000 copies of Nina's "Buddhism in Daily Life" > book for free distribution. It was an overwhelming success; demand > far outstripped supply. We recently printed another 2200 copies. The > Chief Reverend at our local temple had asked for more copies to > distribute and so I decided to go to the temple and offer the books > as dana so that I could share the merit with your mother-in-law. ----------------------------------------------------- Howard: This is so wonderful of you, Rob. This is an act of kindness to a friend, an act of support to a person going on to a new life, and support of the Dhamma, all in one. BTW, of all Nina's writings, I most appreciate her BDL, which makes your gift all the more meaningful to me. -------------------------------------------------------------- > Sabbadanam dhammadanam jinati: "The gift of the Dhamma excels all > other gifts". I suspect that Nina has no idea how much good kamma > she has created through her writings. > > On the way to the temple, my mind was exited with the prospect of > performing this dana. I then noticed that a taxi had struck a > motorcyclist and they were at the side of the road. The motorcyclist > looked as though he was in pain. This image pushed aside my > excitement and I reflected with calm upekkha, "all beings are heirs > to their kamma". > ------------------------------------------------------- Howard: You are a person in whom the Dhamma is strong, Rob. And the Dhamma has helped both my wife and me through this time. ------------------------------------------------------- > > When I got to the temple, I realized that there was a novitiate > programme going on. In Buddhist countries, youths spend one or two > weeks living like monks so that they better appreciate the monastic > lifestyle. There were about 100 youths, mainly between ten to > fifteen years of age, but some in their later teens and a few > adults. The Chief Reverend asked me to give an impromptu Dhamma talk > on the Abhidhamma for about an hour. For about the duration of one > citta process, I considered talking about the inherent > characteristics of rupa :-) , but then decided to talk about > accumulations. > > What a fantastic opportunity to create even more merit to share with > your mother-in-law! I gave each of the novitiates a copy of Nina's > book and left a few more for distribution. I have posted a picture > of the event in the DSG photo album (Members Group); I am the one in > the back row dressed in dark blue among the sea of orange (brown for > the females). I also uploaded a photo of myself with two young > upasakas holding Nina's book, "Buddhism in Daily Life". > > As I explained to the upasakas, if you want to build accumulations > from wholesome deeds, you should spend time planning it, you should > put your heart into it when you do it, you should transfer the merit > accumulated and you should review the event again later. All of > these activities are wholesome and contribute to creating wholesome > accumulations. Howard, I actually used my current action as an > example and I told them about the death of your mother-in-law being > a condition; I even used the term pakatupanissaya :-) (natural > decisive support condition). > > After the talk, the Chief Reverend asked the name of your mother-in- > law, your name and your wife's name. We (just the two of us) did a > wonderful transferrence of merit ceremony. > ------------------------------------------------------ Howard: Oh my, Rob! You have no idea at how moved I am by this. Thank you very, very much. ------------------------------------------------------ In the Sri Lankan > > tradition, when one transfers merit (or does some other meritorious > deed), you are given a coloured string that has been blessed by a > monk. People tie this string around their wrist and it acts as a > condition to cause one to recall the good deed that one has done. I > received a string from Chief Reverend and I asked him to specially > bless another one for you and one for your wife, Rita. Please send > me your snail mail address off-list so that I can send them to you. > ------------------------------------------------------ Howard: I will, indeed, Rob. I can assure you that my wife will be deeply touched by this Rob, and by the extent of your kindness and generosity. (She has not seen your post yet.) -------------------------------------------------------- > You don't have to wear this string, but please put it in a place > where you can see it from time to time (I have one tied around my > rear-view mirror in my car) and reflect on the good things that you > have done and transfer the merit from these good deeds to your > mother-in-law. > ------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Rob, we did do much for my mother-in-law (as she did for us) - out of love, and such a reminder will be a wonderful support and source of strength for both of us. ----------------------------------------------------- > > Howard, I have spent most of the day thinking about your mother-in- > law and, as mentioned in the Bhumija Sutta (Mn126), trying to put > into practice my good intentions. I sincerely hope that it helps. > ------------------------------------------------------ Howard: Thank you, Rob. You are a remarkable person, and I am enormously grateful. ----------------------------------------------------- > > Metta and Karuna, > Rob M :-) > ======================= With very much metta and appreciation, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 26856 From: Date: Tue Nov 11, 2003 1:30am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: A Request for Your Good Thoughts Dear Htoo - Thank you for your warm wishes and kind advice. With much metta, Howard In a message dated 11/11/03 9:21:41 AM Eastern Standard Time, htootintnaing@y... writes: > Dear Howard and family, > > It is a hard time at such particular moment. Anyone of worldly people > will suffer at such a time. To have support at this time is > essential. Could you please give my compassion to all members of your > family. Suffering expands because of spreading mind. > > This spreading mind can be hit away by concentrating mind. I > understand the situation. It is a hard time. Spreading mind helps > angry mind which are grief reactions. To lessen grief reactions, > concentrating mind will help you and your family. > > What should be concentrated at this moment and at such a hard time. > She did such and such good deeds and merit. She deserves such a good > becoming. You and your family are doing good deeds and meritorious > things at this time. May they all go to her. > > Good thoughts will replace negative thoughts such as great loss which > again will thrown away losers' mind and their mind become spreading > mind. As you requested for good thoughts, thoughts about her good > things, thoughts about your actions for her and emotional support of > Acariyas nearby ( (Bhantes ) will all accumulate and will become > concentrating mind. This will ease away greaf reactions. > > May she arise in higher realm. May you and your family feel calm and > do good meritorious deeds for her and may they go to her. > > With Unlimited Metta, > > Htoo Naing > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 26857 From: sue Date: Tue Nov 11, 2003 6:57am Subject: Re: [dsg] A Request for Your Good Thoughts Dear Howard, Thank you for sharing with us the passing of your mother-in-law. My thoughts are with Jeanette, yourself and your family. Metta Sue 26858 From: robmoult Date: Tue Nov 11, 2003 7:19am Subject: Re: Worry Hi Andrew, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Andrew" wrote: > In my Bhikkhu Bodhi edited Abhidhammattha Sangaha, worry (kukkucca) > is defined as "worry or remorse after having done wrong" (p 84). On > the one hand, I can see that this type of worry is a gross form of > dukkha and fittingly akusala. > On the other hand, it seems to be a good support for shame and fear > of wrongdoing, both beautiful cetasikas. ===== You are correct that worry can be good support for shame and fear of wrongdoing, but they don't arise in the same citta. We have to keep each mind-moment separate. There is one moment with worry with an uncomfortable mental feeling (this is an akusala citta). Following this akusala citta *could* be another mind moment which is wholesome (a kusala citta). All kusala cittas contain shame and fear of wrongdoing. There are two ways in which worry can condition the arising of a kusala citta: - Object condition: When one comprehends by means of insight that worry leads to unhappy states - Natural Decisive Support Condition: When worry motivates one to do good deeds Unfortunately, more often than not, worry is a condition for more dosa-mula cittas; dissatisfaction with the current situation, anger with the person making us worry, etc. A process called mental proliferation (papanca) takes over and akusala "multiplies"; delusion feeds on itself. ===== > Both shame and worry are backward-looking (ie into past events), so > why is one kusala and the other akusala? ===== One of the challenges in dealing with a translated work is that there is rarely a "perfect" translation. For clarity, the commentaries describe each cetasika in terms of its: - characterisitic (main quality, essential property, specific or generic attribute) - Function (performance of a task, achievement of goal) - Manifestation (how it presents itself in an experience, the effect it has) - Proximate Cause (conditions upon which it depends) You are asking the difference between hiri (moral shame / conscience / scruples / modesty) and Kukkucca (remorse / worry / regret / brooding). Here is how hiri is defined: - Characteristic: Disgust at bodily and verbal misconduct - Function: Not doing evil because of modesty - Manifestation: Shrinking from evil because of modesty - Proximate Cause: Self-respect Here is how kukkucca is defined: - Characteristic: Subsequent regret; repentance - Function: Sorrow over what has and what has not been done; sorrow at deeds of commission and omission - Manifestation: Remorse; regret - Proximate Cause: Wrongs of commission and omission; akusala kamma that has been committed and kusala kamma that has been omitted Hopefully, this additional information answers your question. ===== > What about people who do wrong and have no worry or shame at all? Do > such people exist or is it merely that their worry is too fleeting to > be noticed by themselves or other worldlings? ===== All unwholesome states of mind will include Ahirika (shamelessness / lack of moral shame / impudence / no conscience) and kukkucca. I gave the details on kukkucca above; here are the details for ahirika: - Characteristic: Absence of disgust at bodily and verbal misconduct; immodesty - Function: Doing evil things without shame - Manifestation: Not shrinking away from evil - Proximate Cause: Lack of respect for self (Consider that the opposite, moral shame, is internally focused) Hope that the above helps. Metta, Rob M :-) 26859 From: Htoo Naing Date: Tue Nov 11, 2003 9:33am Subject: The Second Buddha Discourse Dear Dhamma Friends, The Buddha was in deer park called Isipatana, in Varanasiya, at His first discourse which was delivered to the first five disciples namely Kondanna, Vappa, Bhaddiya, Mahanama, and Assaji. At the end of the discourse Kondanna became a Sotapam. On the next following four days each became a Sotapam on each day. On the 5th waning day of the 4th month of Buddha calendar, The Buddha preached His 2nd discourse called Anattalekkhana Sutta. '' Bhikkhave. '' ( Monks) ' Bhaddante. ' ( Yes, Your Reverence ) Then Bhagava ( The Buddha ) continued His speech: '' Bhikkhave, Rupa are Anatta. If Rupa are Atta, they should not have been sufferings which are unbearable, painful, disturbing, uncontrollable and corruptible by nature. If Rupa are Atta, they should be under control so that it is possible to say ' Let Rupa in such a way and do not let them in that way. As they all are Anatta, they cannot be let so in that way. Rupa are anatta. '' Bhagava continued on next Khandha( aggregates ) of vedana( feelings ), then Sanna ( perceptions ), Sankhara ( mental factors ) and finally on Vinnana ( consciousness ) in the same way. All five disciples were actively listening the second discourse as Atta ( self ) origionally was their traditional view even though they did not have any more Ditthi ( wrong view ) on the 5th day as they were all Sotapams( stream-entrants ). In the mid, Bhagava asked : '' Are Rupa Nicca or Anicca? '' ( Are Rupa permanent or impermanent ? ) ' Anicca, Bhante. ' '' Right. Are such Anicca things Dukkha or Sukha ?'' ' Dukkha, Bhante. ' ( Sufferings , Your reverence ) '' Right. Is it suitable or appropriate to say, ' This is mine. This am I. This is the self for me.' in such impermanent and suffering things ? '' ' Not suitable, Bhante. ' Then The Buddha went on other Khandha of Vedana, Sanna, Sankhara, and Vinnana in the same way by interactive questioning and answering. After 5 disciples answered the questions on Vinnana, The Buddha continued : '' Any Rupa which may be in the past, at the present, in the future, any Rupa which may be inside or outside, gross or delicate, low or lofty, far or near_ all Rupa are not mine, not am I, they are not the self for me. You all have to view on Rupa in such a way with objective, righteous and penetrative wisdom. '' Then, Bhagava continued on Vedana, Sanna, Sankhara, and Vinnana in the same way. All five disciples were joyfully listening to the discourse as they never heard of these matter before. Bhagava went on His preaching : '' So seen, Bhikkhave, the well-learned Noble Disciple disgusts with Rupa, Vedana, Sanna, Sankhara, and Vinnana. So being disgusted he is dispassionate to all those five aggregates.'' '' Through dispassion, he is liberated. He knows that he is liberated and there is no more rebirth. He reaches Holy life. Thus what has to be done has been done. There is nothing further to be done for this Noble Path.'' ( As he becomes an Arahat. ) These are what The Bhagava said and Noble Disciples were delighted and rejoiced at what had been preached by The Buddha. Their minds were freed from the Asava and they became without clinging. At the end of the 2nd discourse, all first five noble disciples became Arahats. The Buddha called '' Ehi Bhikkhu '' and all became the first five members of Arahatta Sangha. Anatta is totally opposite of Atta which was firmly held as a view in those years. The Buddha totally changed the view as He directly discovered without any assistance. May all beings realize Anatta and meditate on Anatta and be able to discard Atta view. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 26860 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Nov 11, 2003 10:06am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Accumulations - for comment/Anapanasati Dear James, As so often you make a very good and challenging point here. It should be cleared up, but different opinions are unavoidable. I made a study of this subject, but it is a long study. I am interested in the anapanasati sutta and commentary. The sutta is divided in groups of four, tetrads, as you will see. I will post it again, since not everybody will read what is in the archives. I post here part 2. Part one is an intro to whom the anapanasati sutta was addressed. If Sarah likes me to repeat this one I will. And, Sarah, do you want me to post the following ones as well? It may be too long. Nina. op 10-11-2003 20:30 schreef buddhatrue op buddhatrue@y...: > Even if one > should choose other meditation objects later on, a good foundation of > mindfulness of breathing is essential for mindfulness in everyday > life. I am thinking more for those members who can be swayed by such > authoritative statements which are simply false. We have a > responsibility beyond ourselves, I think. This issue needs to be > cleared up once and for all if possible. N: We should go back to the first tetrad: (I) Breathing in long, he knows ³I breathe in long²; or breathing out long, he knows ³I breathe out long². (II) Breathing in short, he knows ³I breathe in short²; or breathing out short, he knows ³I breathe out short². (III) He trains thus ³I shall breathe in experiencing the whole body²; he trains thus ³I shall breathe out experiencing the whole body². (IV) He trains thus ³I shall breathe in tranquillizing the bodily activity²; he trains thus ³I shall breathe out tranquillizing the bodily activity², at that time, monks, the monk is faring along contemplating the body in the body, ardent, clearly conscious (of it), mindful (of it) having put away the covetousness and dejection in the world. I say, monks, that of bodies, this is (a certain) one, that is to say breathing-in and breathing-out. That is why, on that occasion, monks, the monk is faring along contemplating the body in the body, ardent, clearly conscious (of it), mindful (of it) having put away the covetousness and dejection in the world. In the word commentary to the above quoted sutta the Visuddhimagga (VIII, 223-226) mentions with regard to the first tetrad (group of four clauses, marked I-IV) of the sutta the different stages of insight-knowledge which are developed after emerging from jhåna. We read Vis. 223 < On emerging from the attainment he sees that the in-breaths and out-breaths have the physical body and the mind as their origin; and that just as, when a blacksmith¹s bellows are being blown, the wind moves owing to the bag and to the man¹s appropriate effort, so too, in-breaths and out-breaths are due to the body and the mind. Next he defines the in-breaths and out-breaths and the body as materiality, and the consciousness and the states associated with the consciousness as the immaterial... Having defined nama-rupa in this way, he seeks its condition...> The Visuddhimagga then mentions all the different stages of insight (Visuddhimagga VIII, 223 -225). We then read: In the Papancasudani, the Co to the Anapanasati sutta, there is more explanation on rupas which should be objects of awareness after the meditator has emerged from jhana. As we read at the end of the first tetrad, The Commentary explains, this is a certain body, kåya~n~natara: N: Breath is rupa, and it can be understood as such when it appears through the bodysense, at the nosetip or upperlip. It can appear as solidity or motion or temperature. It can be known as only rupa, not my breath, as non-self. Contemplating the Body in the Body: now we go to the Co to Satipatthana Sutta (Middle length Sayings, I, 10, translated by Ven. Soma): As to the words: , this Co explains that the world is the five khandhas. Covetousness stands for sense desire and grief stands for ill will, which are, as the Co states, the principal hindrances. We read: Nina: I heard in a tape that A. Sujin explained that all the different sections in the contemplation of the body are a means to remind us to be aware of rupa we take for my body. We think that we walk, sit or are breathing, but in reality there are nama and rupa. ***** Nina. 26861 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Nov 11, 2003 10:06am Subject: Vis. Tiika 36, part I. Vis. 36. (b) "Derived materiality" is of twenty-four kinds as eye, ear, nose, tongue, body, visible datum, sound, odour, flavour, feminity faculty, masculinity faculty, life faculty, heart-basis; bodily intimation,verbal intimation; space element; lightness of matter, malleability of matter, wieldiness of matter, growth of matter, continuity of matter, ageing of matter, impermanence of matter, and physical nutriment. Vis. 36. upaadaaruupa.m catuviisatividha.m cakkhu, sota.m, ghaana.m, jivhaa, kaayo, ruupa.m, saddo, gandho, raso, itthindriya.m, purisindriya.m, jiivitindriya.m, hadayavatthu, kaayavi~n~natti, vaciivi~n~natti, aakaasadhaatu, ruupassa lahutaa, ruupassa mudutaa , ruupassa kamma~n~nataa, ruupassa upacayo, ruupassa santati, ruupassa jarataa, ruupassa aniccataa, kaba.liikaaro aahaaroti. Tiika 36, part I: words: catuviisati: twentyfour ga.nana: number paricchedo: division, chapter. bala: strong. pa.tisedhaprohibition, exclusion vattabba=vaditabba: fit to be told aavi: clear, evident. parato: later on adhi.t.thaati: stand on, be fixed on, concentrate on. aaraama (m): delight assadeti: enjoy madhu: honey bya~njana (n):sign, curry. aavi~nchana: picking up. Tiika text 36: (b)Catuviisatividhanti ga.nanaparicchedo balaruupaadiina.m pa.tisedhanattho. As to the expression, of twentyfour kinds, the division in numbers has the meaning of exclusion from the strong material phenomena and so on. Tattha ya.m vattabba.m, ta.m parato aavi bhavissati. Here what is fit to be told will become evident later on. Cakkhatiiti cakkhu, vi~n~naa.naadhi.t.thita.m ruupa.m assaadenta.m viya hotiiti attho. It relishes, thus it is an eye *, the meaning is: it is as it were enjoying the visible object that consciousness is fixed on. Cakkhatiiti hi aya.m cakkhati-saddo ³madhu.m cakkhati, bya~njana.m cakkhatii²ti-aadiisu viya assaadanattho. As to the word relishes, this means enjoyment, just like he enjoys honey, curry and so on. Vutta~nheta.m ³cakkhu.m kho, maaga.n.diya, ruupaaraama.m ruuparata.m ruupasamuditan²ti (ma. ni. 2.209). This was said (M I, 503): ²The eye, Magandiya, delights in visible obejct, is delighted by it, rejoices in it.² A.t.thakathaayampi vuccati ³ruupesu aavi~nchanarasan²ti (visuddhi. 2.433; dha. sa. a.t.tha. 600). It is also said in the Commentary that its function is picking up (an object) among material phenomena. ****** English: As to the expression, of twentyfour kinds, the division in numbers has the meaning of exclusion from the strong material phenomena and so on. Here what is fit to be told will become evident later on. It relishes, thus it is an eye *, the meaning is: it is as it were enjoying the visible object that consciousness is fixed on. As to the word relishes, this means enjoyment, just like he enjoys honey, curry and so on. This was said (M I, 503): ²The eye, Magandiya, delights in visible obejct, is delighted by it, rejoices in it.² It is also said in the Commentary that its function is picking up (an object) among material phenomena. _____ * See Vis. XV, 19. The eye cannot be attached, but this is a figurative way of speaking. 26862 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Nov 11, 2003 10:06am Subject: Re: [dsg] A Request for Your Good Thoughts Dear Howard, I was touched by your message about the passing away of your mother in law, and also by your confidence in kusala. It is very good to ask us for this special kind of mental dana which is sharing our kusala with those who can appreciate it, including departed ones. I shall think of Jeanette when I pay respect to the Triple Gem. All our sympathy to you and your family, also from Lodewijk. How fortunate you could support her so that she was calm. Nina. op 10-11-2003 23:46 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: > My wife's mother passed away .... If you are comfortable with doing so, I would greatly appreciate > your > directing thoughts of well being and welfaring to her as she continues. 26863 From: Date: Tue Nov 11, 2003 6:22am Subject: Re: [dsg] A Request for Your Good Thoughts Dear Sue - Thank you very much! With warmest metta, Howard In a message dated 11/11/03 11:20:17 AM Eastern Standard Time, sueandwhippets@y... writes: > Dear Howard, > > Thank you for sharing with us the passing of your mother-in-law. > > My thoughts are with Jeanette, yourself and your family. > > Metta > > Sue > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 26864 From: Date: Tue Nov 11, 2003 6:32am Subject: Re: [dsg] A Request for Your Good Thoughts Dear Nina - In a message dated 11/11/03 1:11:05 PM Eastern Standard Time, nilo@e... writes: > Dear Howard, > I was touched by your message about the passing away of your mother in law, > and also by your confidence in kusala. It is very good to ask us for this > special kind of mental dana which is sharing our kusala with those who can > appreciate it, including departed ones. I shall think of Jeanette when I pay > respect to the Triple Gem. > All our sympathy to you and your family, also from Lodewijk. How fortunate > you could support her so that she was calm. > Nina. ========================== Thank you so much! You and Lodewijk are very sweet people whom I care a great deal about. With much metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 26865 From: Michael Beisert Date: Tue Nov 11, 2003 10:39am Subject: Re: [dsg] Worry Hello Andrew, I have joined this discussion list and would like to give my contribution. I think the mix up starts by considering hiri/ottappa as backward looking. If you look at the Abhidhammattha Sangaha on pg 86, it says that hiri/ottappa 'has the function of not doing evil and are manifested as the shrinking away from evil.' Therefore they are very much active prior to commiting any action and not as a reflection on what has already happened. Metta Michael >From: "Andrew" >Reply-To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com >To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com >Subject: [dsg] Worry >Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 05:23:50 -0000 > >Hello all >A big welcome home to all the Myanmar-ites. Great photos! >At the risk of re-activating that "pigs eating dung" thread, I note >that most people feel quite happy about the Dhamma being in line with >commonsense ie good things being kusala and bad things being akusala >etc. >In my Bhikkhu Bodhi edited Abhidhammattha Sangaha, worry (kukkucca) >is defined as "worry or remorse after having done wrong" (p 84). On >the one hand, I can see that this type of worry is a gross form of >dukkha and fittingly akusala. >On the other hand, it seems to be a good support for shame and fear >of wrongdoing, both beautiful cetasikas. >Both shame and worry are backward-looking (ie into past events), so >why is one kusala and the other akusala? >What about people who do wrong and have no worry or shame at all? Do >such people exist or is it merely that their worry is too fleeting to >be noticed by themselves or other worldlings? >Sorry to be a worrywort but any thoughts on the above would be very >soothing. With metta >Andrew > 26866 From: Sarah Date: Tue Nov 11, 2003 1:14pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Accumulations - for comment/Anapanasati Hi Nina, A quick early morning comment to your qu here: --- nina van gorkom wrote: > Dear James, > I will post it again, since not everybody will read what is in the > archives. I post here part 2. Part one is an intro to whom the > anapanasati > sutta was addressed. If Sarah likes me to repeat this one I will. .... I think this is helpful as it discusses the context. This sutta comes up so often and the points are so difficult I find. ... >And, > Sarah, do you want me to post the following ones as well? It may be too > long. .... I think it would be useful. I'd like to consider them again for one. Perhaps if you re-post them every few days so that friends like James and Victor have plenty of time to add any comments/queeries or have any discussion in between, that would be best. I hope as many people as possible join in the thread. They and a few other posts on the topic can be found in UP under 'anapanasati': http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/Useful_Posts Thanks Nina, Metta, Sarah ======= 26867 From: robmoult Date: Tue Nov 11, 2003 1:58pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Worry Hi Michael, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Michael Beisert" wrote: > I have joined this discussion list and would like to give my contribution. I > think the mix up starts by considering hiri/ottappa as backward looking. If > you look at the Abhidhammattha Sangaha on pg 86, it says that hiri/ottappa > 'has the function of not doing evil and are manifested as the shrinking away > from evil.' Therefore they are very much active prior to commiting any > action and not as a reflection on what has already happened. Welcome to DSG. Excellent point, Michael. I have not seen any relationship between wholesome vs. unwholesome and "looking backward" vs. "looking forward". In fact, many cetasikas can be applied to the past, present and the future. For example, when dosa is applied to the past, it might be called "guilt". When dosa is applied to the present, it might be called "aversion". When dosa is applied to the future, it might be called "fear". Looking forward to more posts from both Andrew and yourself. Metta, Rob M :-) 26868 From: robmoult Date: Tue Nov 11, 2003 3:09pm Subject: Accumulations, Conditions and Anatta - Interesting observation Hi All, A few months ago, Jon's mother passed away. As I recall, at that time, I sent a brief note of condolence. Yesterday, Howard's mother-in-law passed away. I was motivated to do dana, give a talk to a group of notitiates and share the merit. Why the significant difference is the level of activity? The events were similar in nature. My "level of closeness" to the person who passed away was similar in nature. My "level of closeness" to those remaining behind is similar in nature. My carita or "habits" have not changed dramatically in the past few months. After some time of struggling, I accepted that there was no "free will"; the concept of anatta did not allow for a supervisory self making decisions. Now I see reactions arising from accumulations. However, they are MY accumulations and some sense of self remains. I now appreciate that I cannot discount "external conditions" (i.e. nothing to do with ME) as a major factor in determining my actions and by extention, my kamma. I cannot spot any obvious difference in the external conditions but it seems clear that even small differences in external conditions can have a major impact. The Buddha was correct when He said that the detailed workings of kamma were unknowable. Metta, Rob M :-) 26869 From: Andrew Date: Tue Nov 11, 2003 3:23pm Subject: Re Worry Dear Sarah, RobM and Michael Thanks for your excellent posts. I'm now clear on the difference between these cetasikas and how they can interact. I'll keep reading ... Thanks again. Sarah, we would love to visit Asia but have too many commitments at the moment. Sandra was born in Sri Lanka (of Scottish/Aussie parents) and would dearly love to return some day. Metta Andrew 26870 From: Andrew Date: Tue Nov 11, 2003 3:46pm Subject: Re: Buddhism v Psychology --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Julie, Steve and Kevin" wrote: I've been wondering how well > psychology and Buddhism go together. On the surface they look to compliment > each other but the more I look into the Abhidhamma etc, the idea of "self" > awareness (psychology) and awareness (buddhism) seem to contradict. One is > interested in our past and present stories the other is interested in this > utlimate present reality, nothing more, nothing less. Am I on the right > track? Can they compliment each other? What do you think? > > See Ya > Julie Hi Julie Sarah has prompted me to put in my two bob's worth on this one, although I studied ethics/moral philosophy rather than psychology. I think that being a good student means you have to be active in questioning everything. Quite frankly, I found a lot of philosophy to be nonsense simply because it wasn't underpinned by a valid psychological theory. Much of it was written before the advent of modern psychology and just didn't fit with my understanding of how humans work. I resolved my difficulties by placing western ethics into the "conventional world" box - even though many western philosophers considered themselves to be talking about the absolute. By all means, go ahead and study psychology and do some counselling. Keep in mind though that Buddha claimed to have seen things as they really are whereas psychology sees itself as an unfolding of knowledge along the scientific method (so that each new PhD student wants to make his or her mark by modifying existing theory - in contrast to the Dhamma student who sees the Dhamma as complete and in need of understanding, not modification). If you start to muddle the two, this can lead to worry (among other things). Hope that helps. Metta Andrew 26871 From: buddhatrue Date: Tue Nov 11, 2003 3:57pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Accumulations - for comment/Anapanasati --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > Dear James, > As so often you make a very good and challenging point here. It should be > cleared up, but different opinions are unavoidable. I made a study of this > subject, but it is a long study. Hello Nina, I thank you for your pains to address my point. However, I think that you are bringing in much more information than is necessary to answer this question. My question is very simple: According to the commentaries, is mindfulness of breathing appropriate for most people or only a select few? Since you have obviously studied this sutta and cross referenced its contents with different secondary sources, you should be able to pinpoint the appropriate material or applicable section with ease. Though your scholarship of this subject is exemplarily, I think that presenting all of your compiled information to answer one simple question is going to drown the issue…and again we will back where we started. However, since you do bring it up, I don't agree with a couple of the interpretations found in these commentaries. First, as you probably guessed ;-), I take issue with the concept of `rupa' being associated with this sutta. If the Buddha had wanted the meditator to realize "nama-rupa" he would have said so, there is no reason to put words in his mouth. Not only that, different sections of the commentaries are contracting each other with usage of this term. First the Visuddhimagga explains the sutta section, "Breathing in long, he knows ³I breathe in long²; or breathing out long, he knows ³I breathe out long²," as "Next he defines the in-breaths and out- breaths and the body as materiality, and the consciousness and the states associated with the consciousness as the immaterial...Having defined nama-rupa in this way, he seeks its condition.." But then later it is stated in the Visuddhimagga, to explain the recurrent term "Body within the Body", as "Why is the word body used twice in the phrase: Contemplating the body in the body? For determining the object and isolating it, and for sifting out thoroughly of the apparent compact nature of things like continuity (santati). Because there is no contemplation of feeling, citta or dhammas in the body, but just the contemplating of the body only..." So, first we have the body as rupa and then the body isn't rupa, then we have citta in the process and then citta isn't in the process. What exactly is the Visuddhimagga trying to say? My interpretation of this sutta is different. Knowing when the breaths are long or short is just being mindful of the breaths. Staying in the present moment by paying attention to the breaths. Knowing the `body within the body' is being mindful of just the body, as the commentary states, but it is also connecting with the source of Nibbana. The Buddha explained the body within the body clealy in the Rohitassa Sutta: [When this was said, the Blessed One responded:] "I tell you, friend, that it is not possible by traveling to know or see or reach a far end of the cosmos where one does not take birth, age, die, pass away, or reappear. But at the same time, I tell you that there is no making an end of suffering & stress without reaching the end of the cosmos. Yet it is just within this fathom-long body, with its perception & intellect, that I declare that there is the cosmos, the origination of the cosmos, the cessation of the cosmos, and the path of practice leading to the cessation of the cosmos." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an04-045.html This is what I believe the Buddha meant by `knowing the body in the body.' Within this finite bag of skin and bones body that we all occupy there is a fathom long body, an infinite body. That is what we should know. If you don't agree with my interpretation, okay. Metta, James 26872 From: Michael Beisert Date: Tue Nov 11, 2003 1:52pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Accumulations - for comment/Anapanasati Hello, I am new in this list and joining here in the middle of the discussion. Sorry if I am off target but David Kalupahana in his book ‘A History of Buddhist Philosophy’ has a chapter dedicated to Buddhaghosa. I will not reproduce here the whole chapter but the following extract reinforces the idea that Buddhaghosa was not a mere ‘complier and translator’ of existing texts in Sinhalese: “If the claim of the faithful followers of the Theriya tradition is that Buddhaghosa did not interpret or add anything to the Theravada, or that he simply summarized the ideas expressed in the original Sinhalese commentaries and translated them into Pali, then these followers cannot claim to be the custodians of the original teachings of the Buddha as embodied in the discourses and in the Abhidhamma, which they themselves have preserved. The reason is that neither the Visuddhimagga (Path of Purification), Buddhaghosa's most significant work, nor the commentaries he compiled on most of the canonical texts preserves the philosophical standpoint we have attributed to the Buddha, to the compilers of the Abhidhamma literature, and even to Moggaloiputta-tissa. This is so because it is not impossible to trace some metaphysical speculations, such as those of the Sarvastivadins, the Sautrantikas, and even the Yogacarins, in the works attributed to Buddhaghosa. What is most significant is that these ideas are introduced in an extremely subtle manner, and that it took a few centuries for them to blossom into full-fledged, openly stated metaphysical positions.” Metta Michael >From: "buddhatrue" >Reply-To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com >To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com >Subject: [dsg] Re: Accumulations - for comment/Anapanasati >Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 09:34:03 -0000 > >--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" >wrote: > > Hi James, > I believe that a good compiler / tanslator needs to have >subject > > matter expertise. They are constantly faced with questions, "what >is > > the best word to use in this case?", "how to capture the feeling, > > not just the words of the text?", "which ideas to include, which to > > cut out?", "how to handle differences between two texts?". > > > > There is no way that Buddhaghosa could do his job without > > some "interpolation"; but what of extrapolation? > >Hi Rob M., > >I believe that a translation should be as unbiased as possible. That >wouldn't include cutting anything out or deciding how best to >demonstrate the `feeling' of the text. Anyone who considers himself >an `expert' with his own ideas of the subject matter shouldn't be a >translator really; he should be an original author. Unfortunately we >can't know how close Buddhaghosa was to the original texts because as >soon as he was done translating them, they `disappeared'. Sarah >claimed in a previous post (sorry, don't have the number), that they >disappeared because of discontinued use. Now, how likely is that? >Consider this information from the article we have been discussing: > >"In the early decades of the 1st c. BCE in Sri Lanka -- then the hub >of Theravada Buddhist scholarship and monastic training -- several >forces combined that would threaten the continuity of the ancient >oral tradition by which the Pali Tipitaka had been passed down from >one generation of monks to the next. A rebellion against the king and >invasions from south India forced many monks to flee the island. At >the same time a famine of unprecedented proportions descended on the >island for a dozen years. The commentaries recount heroic stories of >monks who, fearing that the treasure of the Tipitaka might forever be >lost, retreated to the relative safety of the south coast, where they >survived only on roots and leaves, reciting the texts amongst >themselves day and night. The continuity of the Tipitaka hung by a >thread: at one point only one monk was able to recite the Niddesa." > >The monks of Sri Lanka worked so hard to preserve the texts, a >history of monks practically starving in that pursuit, and then after >Buddhaghosa translates the commentaries they just `lose' the >originals? I, for one, don't believe that. > >Metta, James > > 26873 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Tue Nov 11, 2003 4:16pm Subject: Re: Accumulations, Conditions and Anatta - Interesting observation Hi Rob, Where did you get the idea that the concept of anatta did not allow for a supervisory self making decisions? Note that I am not asking whether the concept of anatta allowed for a supervisory self making decisions or not. I don't see how the idea whether there is free will or not relates to the Buddha's teaching. To me it is a philosophical issue. I did a google search on the term "free will" and came across to the following website: THE DETERMINISM AND FREEDOM PHILOSOPHY WEBSITE edited by Ted Honderich http://www.ucl.ac.uk/~uctytho/dfwIntroIndex.htm For those who are interested in this philosophical issue of free will, this website might be of some interest. Peace, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" wrote: > Hi All, [snip] 26874 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Tue Nov 11, 2003 4:30pm Subject: Re: Accumulations, Conditions and Anatta - Interesting observation Hi all, For those who are interested in the philosophy on free will and determinism, the website listings can be found in the Yahoo directory: Philosophy > Free Will and Determinism http://dir.yahoo.com/Arts/Humanities/Philosophy/Free_Will_and_Determi nism/ Peace, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "yu_zhonghao" wrote: > Hi Rob, [snip] 26875 From: Date: Tue Nov 11, 2003 3:06pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Accumulations, Conditions and Anatta - Interesting observation Hi, Rob - In a message dated 11/11/03 6:13:51 PM Eastern Standard Time, rob.moult@jci. com writes: > > Hi All, > > A few months ago, Jon's mother passed away. As I recall, at that > time, I sent a brief note of condolence. > > Yesterday, Howard's mother-in-law passed away. I was motivated to do > dana, give a talk to a group of notitiates and share the merit. > > Why the significant difference is the level of activity? The events > were similar in nature. My "level of closeness" to the person who > passed away was similar in nature. My "level of closeness" to those > remaining behind is similar in nature. My carita or "habits" have > not changed dramatically in the past few months. > > After some time of struggling, I accepted that there was no "free > will"; the concept of anatta did not allow for a supervisory self > making decisions. Now I see reactions arising from accumulations. > However, they are MY accumulations and some sense of self remains. > > I now appreciate that I cannot discount "external conditions" (i.e. > nothing to do with ME) as a major factor in determining my actions > and by extention, my kamma. I cannot spot any obvious difference in > the external conditions but it seems clear that even small > differences in external conditions can have a major impact. > > The Buddha was correct when He said that the detailed workings of > kamma were unknowable. > > Metta, > Rob M :-) > > ============================ If anything, one might have expected matters to be just the opposite, it being Jon's *mother*, but "only" my mother-in-law. The difference in response was, as always, multiply conditioned. One clear difference, I think, was the fact that I had specifically *requested* a response (though not so thoroughgoing as your wonderful response), and that request served as a trigger. My request made you think of metta and merit, and when you add to that the recent request by the Reverend for more books, the outcome was close to being assured. No doubt there were other significant inputs to this as well. The mental landscape changes all the time, and the coming together even of conditions which seem to be the relevant ones will not necessarily condition the same event one time as another - seemingly tangential conditions may be determinative. Yes, you are right - small differences, subtle differences, may make all the difference in the world. The net of conditions is so complex that it is often impossible to unravel it, and there are surprises, with small conditions often leveraging large results. And so long as we don't feel the need to compusively know all the answers, this very difficulty in analysis and predictability can make life "interesting"! ;-) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 26876 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Nov 11, 2003 9:10pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: A Request for Your Good Thoughts Dear Rob M anumodana for all your kusala. I like this story very much and how you extended kusala for Howard's mother in law, and the special threads as a token of it. Nina. op 11-11-2003 08:27 schreef robmoult op rob.moult@j...: > > Last year, I printed 1000 copies of Nina's "Buddhism in Daily Life" > book for free distribution. It was an overwhelming success; demand > far outstripped supply. We recently printed another 2200 copies. The > Chief Reverend at our local temple had asked for more copies to > distribute and so I decided to go to the temple and offer the books > as dana so that I could share the merit with your mother-in-law. > 26877 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Nov 11, 2003 9:10pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:Buddhaghosa Dear Rob M The more I read of Buddhaghosa, the more I see how careful he is, often mentioning that this teacher says this, and others say that. He would not gain anything by handling texts in a careless way! Nina. op 11-11-2003 09:29 schreef robmoult op rob.moult@j...: > ...However, these > directions for recognizing the temperaments have not been handed > down in their entirety in either the text or commentaries; they are > only expressed according to the opinion of the teachers and cannot > therefore be treated as authentic..." > >> From these two examples, it is seen that Buddhaghosa is careful > about interserting his opinions and clearly identifies his own > opinions when he inserts them. These two examples do not prove that > the whole of Buddhaghosa's writings are free from hidden opinions, > but they do indicate that Buddhaghosa was aware of the problem. 26878 From: buddhatrue Date: Tue Nov 11, 2003 9:17pm Subject: [dsg] Re:Buddhaghosa --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > Dear Rob M > The more I read of Buddhaghosa, the more I see how careful he is, often > mentioning that this teacher says this, and others say that. He would not > gain anything by handling texts in a careless way! > Nina. > op 11-11-2003 09:29 schreef robmoult op rob.moult@j...: Hi Nina, This isn't entirely true. If he was unenlightened, he would gain power and ego gratification by manipulating texts as he saw fit. Metta, James 26879 From: Sarah Date: Tue Nov 11, 2003 10:35pm Subject: Back to Buddhaghosa.....;-) Hi James & All, --- buddhatrue wrote: > I believe that a translation should be as unbiased as possible. That > wouldn't include cutting anything out or deciding how best to > demonstrate the `feeling' of the text. Anyone who considers himself > an `expert' with his own ideas of the subject matter shouldn't be a > translator really; he should be an original author. .... At the same time as we see with various modern translations of Pali into English, the translation will be affected by the understanding of the translator, especially when words or phrases can be translated in more than one way. Evidence suggests that Buddhaghosa had very good understanding of the material. Such understanding can only be developed by the eightfold path. ..... > Unfortunately we > can't know how close Buddhaghosa was to the original texts because as > soon as he was done translating them, they `disappeared'. Sarah > claimed in a previous post (sorry, don't have the number), that they > disappeared because of discontinued use. Now, how likely is that? .... Taking my name in vain, eh? ;-) No problem. I don’t think there is any evidence at all about when they ‘disappeared’ and certainly none to suggest this was as soon as he had translated or compiled them into the Pali commentaries. I have no idea, but probably what I said was that there are suggestions (by people who know a LOT more than me) that as Pali became widely used amongst the bhikkhus in particular and as Buddhaghosa’s Visuddhimagga and other commentaries were so enthusiastically accepted by the Sangha (who had memorised and were used to reciting all the Tipitaka and older Sinhalese commentaries), that they became used and recited. Thank you for your inspiring quote here: ..... > "In the early decades of the 1st c. BCE in Sri Lanka -- then the hub > of Theravada Buddhist scholarship and monastic training -- several > forces combined that would threaten the continuity of the ancient > oral tradition by which the Pali Tipitaka had been passed down from > one generation of monks to the next. A rebellion against the king and > invasions from south India forced many monks to flee the island. At > the same time a famine of unprecedented proportions descended on the > island for a dozen years. The commentaries recount heroic stories of > monks who, fearing that the treasure of the Tipitaka might forever be > lost, retreated to the relative safety of the south coast, where they > survived only on roots and leaves, reciting the texts amongst > themselves day and night. The continuity of the Tipitaka hung by a > thread: at one point only one monk was able to recite the Niddesa." .... You wrote: ..... > The monks of Sri Lanka worked so hard to preserve the texts, a > history of monks practically starving in that pursuit, and then after > Buddhaghosa translates the commentaries they just `lose' the > originals? I, for one, don't believe that. .... On the other hand, do you believe that after preserving the texts so carefully that they would allow anything erroneous or anything not exactly according to the commentaries they were so used to reciting to take their place? Similarly, when Buddhaghosa’s commentaries were taken to Burma and other countries to be recited by the wise Theras, I don’t believe there is any evidence of any dispute about them. Instead, they were fully incorporated and recited and recorded at the following Councils. Metta, Sarah ====== 26880 From: Sarah Date: Tue Nov 11, 2003 10:57pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Accumulations - for comment/Anapanasati Hi Michael, Welcome to DSG! In your case, your words preceded you - I appreciated your helpful comments and questions in the thread on the King Milinda passage on ignorance which Nina f/w here. --- Michael Beisert wrote: > Hello, > > I am new in this list and joining here in the middle of the discussion. > Sorry if I am off target but David Kalupahana in his book ‘A History of > Buddhist Philosophy’ has a chapter dedicated to Buddhaghosa. .... You’re very on target and I’m sure everyone is glad to see your contributions. I’d be glad to see any examples of what D.K. is discussing in the quote you gave. I know next to nothing about the “Sarvastivadins, the Sautrantikas, and even the Yogacarins”, but don’t personally find any conflict or disparity in what is found in Buddhaghosa’s commentaries and the Tipitaka. How about you, do you find any disparity or have any difficulty in accepting the commentaries or Qus of K.Milinda for example? Michael, please share anything else you care to about your interest in the Dhamma, where you live and so on. Obviously you’ve studied and considered carefully. You may also find it useful to use search functions here: http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/ Also, all the archives have been put into a word document for easy scrolling and searching: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/ Let us know if there’s anything else and please join in any threads (new or old) anytime. What is ‘on target’ to one person, may be ‘off target’ to another;-) Metta, Sarah p.s We ask everyone on DSG to ‘trim’ posts being replied to, though we all forget at times;-) ========================= 26881 From: Julie Date: Wed Nov 12, 2003 1:12am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Buddhism v Psychology - Andrew Hi Andrew, Thanks for your response. Much appreciated! Bye Julie 26882 From: Julie Date: Wed Nov 12, 2003 1:12am Subject: RE: [dsg] RE: Buddhism v Psychology - Sarah Hiya Sarah, >Not sure if this ramble helps. No such thing! It was wonderful.... Thanks for sharing your thoughts. It's given me something to think about, again :). I don't think I can take much more... DSG is really straining my brain!!!! See Ya Julie 26883 From: Sarah Date: Wed Nov 12, 2003 2:49am Subject: Karuna - not bearing others' suffering Hi RobM, (I've lost the other thread) We were discussing the function of compassion as ‘not bearing others’ suffering’ (Vism 1X,94). I suggested this was >a literal translation. (??maybe dhara - bearing, holding - ***** Soon after, I noticed that the same word I was thinking of came up in a Vism thread on the primary rupas: “But without differentiation they are elements (dhaatu) beacuse of bearing (dhaara.na) their own characteristics, because of grasping (aadaana) suffering, and because of sorting out (aadhaana) suffering (see Ch. XV, 19). (29) This is how they should be given attention as to word meaning.” Dhaara.na - bearing, holding, supporting. So compassion doesn’t ‘bear, hold or support’ others suffering in the sense of wishing to remove it. Any comments welcome! (I'm just assuming it's the same word used). Metta, Sarah ===== 26884 From: Sarah Date: Wed Nov 12, 2003 3:20am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Dhamma-vinaya Hi Sukin, Christine, Shakti & All, Your good comments, Sukin, reminded me of a discussion we had in Myanmar which I think also relates to Christine’s qu about K.Sujin’s comments on death to the visiting Myanmar friend: --- Sukinderpal Singh Narula wrote: > However, I would like to mention here with regard to my impression > of Abhidhamma that its study deals with "present realities". And > this I think, is more important that anything else. It does not > matter what the labels are used, as long as they lead to `what can > be observed in the moment'. <..> .... I agree of course;-) As we sat in the Palace grounds in Mandalay, we were reminded that Dhamma, Abhidhamma, paramattha dhammas, are just this moment of seeing or thinking or other present realities which can be known. When Sariputta heard the lines about conditioned realities, there were conditions then and there for the wisdom to arise to really appreciate the meaning with sufficient detachment. It really is the path of the wearing away and eradication of attachment. (If you remember, this was the occasion we also talked about helping children and loved ones). ..... >I get the impression increasingly, that to think in terms > of `doing' something for future results would be from `wrong > thinking', `misdirected thoughts'. .... In the same discussion, we were reminded that when we think about ‘what shall I do....’ there is thinking and no awareness. It indicates the clinging to self again. ‘The idea of self is so very deeply rooted’. We asked questions about death which again indicated the ‘wanting’ and ‘clinging’ instead of present awareness. K.Sujin reminded us that the moment of death is just like a moment of bhavanga citta now or in deep sleep. The object can’t be known and there’s nothing to be afraid of when one understands this. We experience pain countless times in a day, but usually it’s followed by seeing or hearing. Pain can condition death, however, at anytime. Awareness now can condition awareness in future, but without having any expectations about it. Otherwise it’s bound to be more attachment. <..> > There is *no* other way. However > there is no self who decides to `apply' or `let go' of theory. > Lobha is so pervasive and the `self' seeks results, and in the > process it is attracted by what `seems' to work and is > within `self's' reach. <..> Lots of wise comments, Sukin (mostly snipped). Chris, please don’t think anyone is ever telling you what you should know or understand or accept. Only panna (rt understanding) can ever do that. All we can do here (or in person) is to share reminders about what we find helpful and open these up for further consideration or reflection. There’s never any need to agree with what any of us say. What do you think? Metta, Sarah ======= 26885 From: Sarah Date: Wed Nov 12, 2003 5:16am Subject: Sariputta's mother Dear Friends, In my last post, I wrote: > Sariputta heard the lines about conditioned realities, there were > conditions then and there for the wisdom to arise to really appreciate > the meaning with sufficient detachment. It really is the path of the >wearing away and eradication of attachment. (If you remember, this >was the occasion we also talked about helping children and loved ones). ..... As I was writing these lines, Jon was walking after work and listening to a friend (K. Unop, Thai series) talking about Sariputta’s mother and her total lack of interest in the Buddha’s teaching, in spite of being the mother of seven sons who had all become arahants. Instead she worshipped Brahma and followed wrong practices, having no interest in listening to her sons at all and no respect for the Sangha. Details can be found at these links: http://www.palikanon.com/english/pali_names/sa/saariputta.htm http://www.palikanon.com/english/pali_names/r/rupasari.htm Here are a few snippets which match the account Jon just told me: “Once when Sáriputta visited her with five hundred monks, among whom was Ráhula, she invited them in and gave them food, but did not fail to abuse her son, calling him "eater of leavings" (ucchitthakhádaka) (DhA.iv.164f).” Only when Sariputta knew he would soon realize Parinibbana, he realized there would be an opportunity for he, himself, to help her, so after paying his final respects to the Buddha and giving a sermon, a “Lion’s Roar’, he went back to his home village with a large following and to the house where he had been born. “He sent word to warn his mother of his arrival with a large number of people. She, thinking that he had once more returned to the lay life, made all preparations to welcome him and his companions. Sáriputta took up his abode in the room in which he was born (játovaraka). There he was afflicted with dysentery. His mother, unaware of this and sulking because she found he was still a monk, remained in her room. The Four Regent Gods and Sakka and Mahá Brahmá waited upon him. ” <......> “Learning their identity from Mahá Cunda, she was amazed and went to see Sáriputta to have Mahá Cunda's words confirmed. Sáriputta told her how Mahá Brahmá was a follower of the Buddha and talked to her about the marvellous virtues of his teacher. At the end of his talk, she became a sotápanna. Sáriputta died the next day at dawn, and she made elaborate arrangements for his cremation (SA.iii.172ff.; for details see Sáriputta).” The links give further reference details. She must have been a very old lady and if it were not for Sariputta’s powers to know exactly the right conditions for her at that time to be able to listen, including her amazement that Sakka, Brahma and other Gods listened too, she would have remained a wordling clinging to wrong views and practices. As we sat on the wooden deck in the palace grounds we were reminded to develop awareness of the present thinking and mental states when we had ideas and stories about helping loved ones. They have their accumulations which we can’t change. It depends on so many factors whether there is any wise attention or understanding at this moment as we read and reflect and so it is for others too. Metta, Sarah ====== 26886 From: Sarah Date: Wed Nov 12, 2003 5:33am Subject: RE: [dsg] RE: Buddhism v Psychology - Sarah H Julie, --- Julie wrote: > > >Not sure if this ramble helps. > > No such thing! It was wonderful.... Thanks for sharing your thoughts. > It's > given me something to think about, again :) .... thx for the feedback. .... I don't think I can take > much > more... DSG is really straining my brain!!!! .... ;-) Just ignore anything too technical or brain-straining for now. Hope you, Lyn and others in your group let us know how your meetings and Abhidhamma study is going from time to time. Metta, Sarah ======= 26887 From: buddhatrue Date: Wed Nov 12, 2003 5:35am Subject: Re: Back to Buddhaghosa.....;-) Hi Sarah, --- buddhatrue wrote: > I believe that a translation should be as unbiased as possible. That > wouldn't include cutting anything out or deciding how best to > demonstrate the `feeling' of the text. Anyone who considers himself > an `expert' with his own ideas of the subject matter shouldn't be a > translator really; he should be an original author. .... At the same time as we see with various modern translations of Pali into English, the translation will be affected by the understanding of the translator, especially when words or phrases can be translated in more than one way. Evidence suggests that Buddhaghosa had very good understanding of the material. Such understanding can only be developed by the eightfold path. James: Well, we are starting to get into a side issue here. As Michael's quote pointed out, excellent quote BTW, Buddhaghosa wasn't just a translator and compiler, he was an author. Personally, I believe that knowledge of the subject matter is necessary, of course, but more important than that is knowledge of language. Too much knowledge of the subject can be a hindrance because then personal opinion can be inserted into the translation. Some scholarly research points to this, as Michael's quote states. It seems that you are not going to believe this until there is some sort of huge expose on Buddhaghosa. Frankly, that isn't going to happen. His commentaries are really not that important to mainstream Buddhists, only fringe groups. Few want to spend a lot of time researching and exposing the inconsistencies of his writings because few really care. I just discuss Buddhaghosa as a passing fancy; I don't have an axe to grind. But I don't mind going "Back to Buddhaghosa...;-)" as the situation arises. > Unfortunately we > can't know how close Buddhaghosa was to the original texts because as > soon as he was done translating them, they `disappeared'. Sarah > claimed in a previous post (sorry, don't have the number), that they > disappeared because of discontinued use. Now, how likely is that? .... Taking my name in vain, eh? ;-) No problem. James: No, I am not taking you name in vain! ;-) I do remember that conversation and I believe that is what you said. Did I paraphrase you incorrectly? Do you not appreciate me referring to you in posts to other people? If so I won't do it again. I don't think there is any evidence at all about when they `disappeared' and certainly none to suggest this was as soon as he had translated or compiled them into the Pali commentaries. I have no idea, but probably what I said was that there are suggestions (by people who know a LOT more than me) that as Pali became widely used amongst the bhikkhus in particular and as Buddhaghosa's Visuddhimagga and other commentaries were so enthusiastically accepted by the Sangha (who had memorised and were used to reciting all the Tipitaka and older Sinhalese commentaries), that they became used and recited. James: I didn't really mean to imply that as soon as he got done translating he threw the originals away. I don't think that happened; it would have been far too obvious. However, I do believe that there was pressure at some later date to discard the originals. Important, historical documents like that don't just get lost on their own. (See my last comment). Thank you for your inspiring quote here: ..... > "In the early decades of the 1st c. BCE in Sri Lanka -- then the hub > of Theravada Buddhist scholarship and monastic training -- several > forces combined that would threaten the continuity of the ancient > oral tradition by which the Pali Tipitaka had been passed down from > one generation of monks to the next. A rebellion against the king and > invasions from south India forced many monks to flee the island. At > the same time a famine of unprecedented proportions descended on the > island for a dozen years. The commentaries recount heroic stories of > monks who, fearing that the treasure of the Tipitaka might forever be > lost, retreated to the relative safety of the south coast, where they > survived only on roots and leaves, reciting the texts amongst > themselves day and night. The continuity of the Tipitaka hung by a > thread: at one point only one monk was able to recite the Niddesa." .... You wrote: ..... > The monks of Sri Lanka worked so hard to preserve the texts, a > history of monks practically starving in that pursuit, and then after > Buddhaghosa translates the commentaries they just `lose' the > originals? I, for one, don't believe that. .... On the other hand, do you believe that after preserving the texts so carefully that they would allow anything erroneous or anything not exactly according to the commentaries they were so used to reciting to take their place? James: Yes, most definitely. Sarah, you seem to have an idealized notion of what monk sanghas are like. I have worked very closely with my temple- preparing tax paperwork, securing scholarships for monks, helping with residency visas and legal issues- and so I know that sanghas are just as political as any government or business institution. There is no reason to believe it was any different in Buddhaghosa's time. If someone with a lot of prestige and power, like Buddhaghosa, shows up and says that things are going to change and that this is the way they are going to change, there aren't going to be any disputes about that. Ask Jon, didn't he used to be a monk? He will tell you how it is. Similarly, when Buddhaghosa's commentaries were taken to Burma and other countries to be recited by the wise Theras, I don't believe there is any evidence of any dispute about them. Instead, they were fully incorporated and recited and recorded at the following Councils. Metta, Sarah ====== Metta, James 26888 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Nov 12, 2003 10:07am Subject: Re: [dsg] Accumulations, Conditions Dear Rob M., there were also many moments of vipaka, seeing, hearing. Your feeling unwell, and then reading Howard's post. The Reverend asked you to give a talk on Abhidhamma, and you spoke about accumulations. There were wholesome reactions to different vipakas. Conditions are most intricate. It is most helpful that you spoke about the events that happened as an illustration. Then people can appreciate that the Abhidhamma is not theory at all. I hope you will continue bringing in such examples! Sarah mentioned your car clash with another car and that you handed to the driver one of the Dhamma disks that you had made. Another illustration. You wrote before that you intended to develop all ten akusala kamma pathas for the next three months. I was wondering, how can Rob plan it that way? And see, in one day you had the opportunity for all ten!! You had made the good intention. Also telling others is a way of dana, giving us the opportunity to rejoice. Howard and his family must feel happy now, inspite of their loss. Could you perhaps invite A. Sujin to Singapore? I wish I could join. With appreciation, Nina. op 12-11-2003 00:09 schreef robmoult op rob.moult@j...: > I now appreciate that I cannot discount "external conditions" (i.e. > nothing to do with ME) as a major factor in determining my actions > and by extention, my kamma..... > The Buddha was correct when He said that the detailed workings of > kamma were unknowable. 26889 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Nov 12, 2003 10:07am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Buddhaghosa Dear Michael, does Kalupahana give examples of Buddhaghosa where we can see that other ideas were introduced? Nina. op 11-11-2003 22:52 schreef Michael Beisert op mbeisert@h...: > This is so because it is not impossible to > trace some metaphysical speculations, such as those of the Sarvastivadins, > the Sautrantikas, and even the Yogacarins, in the works attributed to > Buddhaghosa. What is most significant is that these ideas are introduced in > an extremely subtle manner, and that it took a few centuries for them to > blossom into full-fledged, openly stated metaphysical positions. 26890 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Nov 12, 2003 10:07am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: nissaya text : To Nina Dear Suan, op 11-11-2003 15:05 schreef abhidhammika op suanluzaw@b...: > > When I wrote a sample Nissaya text on the Pali passage you gave, I > did so without a chance to consult the existing Nissaya texts on > Vissudhumaggo. > This morning (11-11-2003), I checked N(y)aa.namoli's "Path Of > Purification" and noticed that he did not translate "Ayam pana > vitthaaro". And he translated "yam" as "when" clause (as > though "yasmim" clause), and separately translated "ettha" as "here" > adverb later. > I find that translation of "yam taava vuttam" as "where" clause gives > us neat and natural English. And fewer words because the "where" > clause takes care of "ettha" ("here" adverb). N: Yes I also noticed that Nyanamoli did not translate ayam pana vitthaaro. I want to reflect more on this text. In the Nyanamoli text bhumi is translated as soil: in the preceding para: he should Soil: a foundation. The bhuumi that is enumerated are many things in a specific order, beginning with the khandhas. It ends with the pa.ticcasamuppaadaa. Because this is the essence, release from the cycle? Bhuumi could be both soil, foundation and field of understanding, that is, the objects of which understanding should be developed. Nina. 26891 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Nov 12, 2003 10:07am Subject: Re: [dsg] Worry Hi Michael, Welcome to this group. I hope you will find it useful. I think also after committing evil, you can regret and then have the wholesome shame. You realize what you have done. You make the intention not to do this evil again, with shame and fear in the wholesome way.Cittas change all the time, then kusala, then akusala, etc. Thus, it all depends on the citta that arises. Nina. op 11-11-2003 19:39 schreef Michael Beisert op mbeisert@h...: > Hello Andrew, > > I have joined this discussion list and would like to give my contribution. I > think the mix up starts by considering hiri/ottappa as backward looking. If > you look at the Abhidhammattha Sangaha on pg 86, it says that hiri/ottappa > 'has the function of not doing evil and are manifested as the shrinking away > from evil.' Therefore they are very much active prior to commiting any > action and not as a reflection on what has already happened. 26892 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Nov 12, 2003 10:07am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Anapanasati Dear James, Early morning I read your post with the beautiful sutta. Good reflection during breakfast and in the swimming pool. For a long time we were looking at far horizons to the beyond, always wanting something else and forgetting what is right at hand! Let us first go into the sutta. op 12-11-2003 00:57 schreef buddhatrue op buddhatrue@y...: The Buddha explained the body within the body clearly in > the Rohitassa Sutta: > > [When this was said, the Blessed One responded:] "I tell you, friend, > that it is not possible by traveling to know or see or reach a far > end of the cosmos where one does not take birth, age, die, pass away, > or reappear. But at the same time, I tell you that there is no making > an end of suffering & stress without reaching the end of the cosmos. > Yet it is just within this fathom-long body, with its perception & > intellect, that I declare that there is the cosmos, the origination > of the cosmos, the cessation of the cosmos, and the path of practice > leading to the cessation of the cosmos." > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an04-045.html > > This is what I believe the Buddha meant by `knowing the body in the > body.' Within this finite bag of skin and bones body that we all > occupy there is a fathom long body, an infinite body. That is what > we should know. N: I do not see it as an infinite body. The Buddha says, with its perceptions and thoughts, and here are all five aggregates included. The aggregates arise because of conditions. So long as there is ignorance there is rebirth, the arising of the aggregates. The world: another word for the five aggregates. See Kindred Sayings (IV, Second Fifty, Ch IV, § 82)The world: the Buddha was asked what the world is; We should develop understanding of the five aggregates so that ignorance is eradicated and we reach the end of the world, no more rebirth. Now I look at the Co I have in Thai. It stresses a few points of the sutta. The Ill is the Ill of being in the cycle. The origination of the world etc. here the Buddha explained the four noble Truths. The world is the Truth of suffering (dukkha). The end is the cessation (nibbana) and the practice is the Path. In the verse it is said, <...Knowing the world's end by becoming calmed, He longs not for this world or another.> Co states for calmed: calmed, freed from what is evil. Thus, this refers to the arahat who has eradicated all that is evil. The highest calm. J: My question is very simple: According to the > commentaries, is mindfulness of breathing appropriate for most people > or only a select few? .... I take issue with the concept of `rupa' being associated > with this sutta. If the Buddha had wanted the meditator to > realize "nama-rupa" he would have said so, there is no reason to put > words in his mouth. N:We need patience to study this sutta carefully. If we only look at the beginning we may miss the point. Before the Buddha's enlightenment people pratised mindfulness of Breath. The Buddha added a new dimension. People should realize the three characteristics of all conditioned phenomena, including breath. They should reach the end of the world! The body consists of different material elements which do not last at all. Evenso what we call mind are many different mental moments. These do not last. When we see them as a whole we will not know their true characteristics. J: First the Visuddhimagga explains the sutta section, "Breathing in > long, he knows ³I breathe in long²; or breathing out long, he knows > ³I breathe out long²," as "Next he defines the in-breaths and out- > breaths and the body as materiality, and the consciousness and the > states associated with the consciousness as the immaterial...Having > defined nama-rupa in this way, he seeks its condition.." But then > later it is stated in the Visuddhimagga, to explain the recurrent > term "Body within the Body", as "Why is the word body used twice in > the phrase: Contemplating the body in the body? For determining the > object and isolating it, and for sifting out thoroughly of the > apparent compact nature of things like continuity (santati). Because there is no contemplation of feeling, citta or dhammas in the > body, but just the contemplating of the body only..." N: He contemplates bodily phenomena, and not at the same time mental phenomena. He learns that what he takes for "My important body" are only fleeting material phenomena. J:So, first we > have the body as rupa and then the body isn't rupa, then we have > citta in the process and then citta isn't in the process. What > exactly is the Visuddhimagga trying to say? N: See above. The aggregate of materiality includes all material phenomena, and thus also all phenomena that constitutes the body. I do not see any contradiction. J: My interpretation of this sutta is different. Knowing when the > breaths are long or short is just being mindful of the breaths. > Staying in the present moment by paying attention to the breaths. > Knowing the `body within the body' is being mindful of just the body, > as the commentary states, but it is also connecting with the source > of Nibbana. N: Understanding of both mental phenomena and material phenomena has to be developed gradually. Not just bodily phenomena. That is the way to attain nibbana. Thus, when we are mindful of breath we have to scrutinize ourselves: what is our mind like at such a moment? Do we take breath for my breath? Do we cling to breath? Then we do not follow what the Buddha taught: see conditioned phenomena as impermanent, dukkha and non-self. Mind is different all the time and we have to study it with great patience. Nina. 26893 From: Michael Beisert Date: Wed Nov 12, 2003 11:06am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Accumulations - for comment/Anapanasati James, I will jump into this discussion if you don’t mind. I can recall Bhante Gunaratana mentioning that ‘the body within the body’ is simply referring to the breath. The breath is a body, the breath-body, which takes place within another body. I don’t fully agree with your reading of the Rohitassa Sutta. The sutta mentions that the cosmos is within the body but also perception & intelect which is an indication of nama-rupa, and that would make more sense, i.e. the world or cosmos, within the context of the teachings, is nama-rupa. Metta Michael >From: "buddhatrue" >Reply-To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com >To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com >Subject: [dsg] Re: Accumulations - for comment/Anapanasati >Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 23:57:45 -0000 > >--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom >wrote: > > Dear James, > > As so often you make a very good and challenging point here. It >should be > > cleared up, but different opinions are unavoidable. I made a study >of this > > subject, but it is a long study. > >Hello Nina, > >I thank you for your pains to address my point. However, I think >that you are bringing in much more information than is necessary to >answer this question. My question is very simple: According to the >commentaries, is mindfulness of breathing appropriate for most people >or only a select few? Since you have obviously studied this sutta >and cross referenced its contents with different secondary sources, >you should be able to pinpoint the appropriate material or applicable >section with ease. Though your scholarship of this subject is >exemplarily, I think that presenting all of your compiled information >to answer one simple question is going to drown the issue…and again >we will back where we started. > >However, since you do bring it up, I don't agree with a couple of the >interpretations found in these commentaries. First, as you probably >guessed ;-), I take issue with the concept of `rupa' being associated >with this sutta. If the Buddha had wanted the meditator to >realize "nama-rupa" he would have said so, there is no reason to put >words in his mouth. Not only that, different sections of the >commentaries are contracting each other with usage of this term. >First the Visuddhimagga explains the sutta section, "Breathing in >long, he knows ³I breathe in long²; or breathing out long, he knows >³I breathe out long²," as "Next he defines the in-breaths and out- >breaths and the body as materiality, and the consciousness and the >states associated with the consciousness as the immaterial...Having >defined nama-rupa in this way, he seeks its condition.." But then >later it is stated in the Visuddhimagga, to explain the recurrent >term "Body within the Body", as "Why is the word body used twice in >the phrase: Contemplating the body in the body? For determining the >object and isolating it, and for sifting out thoroughly of the >apparent compact nature of things like continuity (santati). >Because there is no contemplation of feeling, citta or dhammas in the >body, but just the contemplating of the body only..." So, first we >have the body as rupa and then the body isn't rupa, then we have >citta in the process and then citta isn't in the process. What >exactly is the Visuddhimagga trying to say? > >My interpretation of this sutta is different. Knowing when the >breaths are long or short is just being mindful of the breaths. >Staying in the present moment by paying attention to the breaths. >Knowing the `body within the body' is being mindful of just the body, >as the commentary states, but it is also connecting with the source >of Nibbana. The Buddha explained the body within the body clealy in >the Rohitassa Sutta: > >[When this was said, the Blessed One responded:] "I tell you, friend, >that it is not possible by traveling to know or see or reach a far >end of the cosmos where one does not take birth, age, die, pass away, >or reappear. But at the same time, I tell you that there is no making >an end of suffering & stress without reaching the end of the cosmos. >Yet it is just within this fathom-long body, with its perception & >intellect, that I declare that there is the cosmos, the origination >of the cosmos, the cessation of the cosmos, and the path of practice >leading to the cessation of the cosmos." >http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an04-045.html > >This is what I believe the Buddha meant by `knowing the body in the >body.' Within this finite bag of skin and bones body that we all >occupy there is a fathom long body, an infinite body. That is what >we should know. If you don't agree with my interpretation, okay. > >Metta, James 26894 From: Michael Beisert Date: Wed Nov 12, 2003 11:35am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Accumulations - for comment/Anapanasati Sarah, Thank you for your kind words of welcome. Just so that people know who they are talking to I will give a brief introduction about myself. For the last 3 years I have been living in Atlanta, GA/USA. I was born in Germany but grew up and spent most of my life in Brazil. To be more precise in São Paulo. In the last 15 years though I have lived most of the time out of Brazil due to work. Currently I am retired and fully dedicated to the Dhamma. My interest in Buddhism started about 10 years ago and gradually has increased over the years. About 3 years ago I started a web site with sutta and essays translation to Portuguese. My source of inspiration was the Access to Insight web site. I started translating the texts available at that web site. I like to believe that my translations have improved over time with my level of understanding. Anyway the feedback I get from readers is very encouraging. I am slowly starting to think about learning Pali for real and just a few days ago received the Bhavana News and next year Bhante Gunaratana will conduct a 10 day seminar to teach Pali. That could well be the kick start I need. I would love to live in a Theravada country to enjoy Buddhism from the inside but currently am bound to the place I live by my son who is still a freshman in high school. But after he gets to college I hope that wish will materialize. Going back to our conversation, I have to say that I am not that familiar with the writings of Buddhaghosa. It’s funny because the Visuddhimagga was one of the very first books I bought on Theravada Buddhism but never came around to really read and study. I have only occasionally browsed through it. But one of the critics raised by DK in his book is the use by Buddhaghosa of essencialist perspectives which cannot be traced back to the original scriptures of the Canon. Metta Michael >From: Sarah >Reply-To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com >To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com >Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Accumulations - for comment/Anapanasati >Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2003 14:57:11 +0800 (CST) > >Hi Michael, > >Welcome to DSG! In your case, your words preceded you - I appreciated your >helpful comments and questions in the thread on the King Milinda passage >on ignorance which Nina f/w here. > > --- Michael Beisert wrote: > Hello, > > > > I am new in this list and joining here in the middle of the discussion. > > Sorry if I am off target but David Kalupahana in his book ‘A History of > > Buddhist Philosophy’ has a chapter dedicated to Buddhaghosa. >.... >You’re very on target and I’m sure everyone is glad to see your >contributions. I’d be glad to see any examples of what D.K. is discussing >in the quote you gave. I know next to nothing about the “Sarvastivadins, >the Sautrantikas, and even the Yogacarins”, but don’t personally find any >conflict or disparity in what is found in Buddhaghosa’s commentaries and >the Tipitaka. How about you, do you find any disparity or have any >difficulty in accepting the commentaries or Qus of K.Milinda for example? > >Michael, please share anything else you care to about your interest in the >Dhamma, where you live and so on. Obviously you’ve studied and considered >carefully. > >You may also find it useful to use search functions here: >http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/ >Also, all the archives have been put into a word document for easy >scrolling and searching: >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/ > >Let us know if there’s anything else and please join in any threads (new >or old) anytime. What is ‘on target’ to one person, may be ‘off target’ to >another;-) > >Metta, > >Sarah > >p.s We ask everyone on DSG to ‘trim’ posts being replied to, though we all >forget at times;-) >========================= 26895 From: buddhatrue Date: Wed Nov 12, 2003 0:11pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Accumulations - for comment/Anapanasati Hi Michael, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Michael Beisert" wrote: > James, > > I will jump into this discussion if you don't mind. I can recall Bhante > Gunaratana mentioning that `the body within the body' is simply referring to > the breath. The breath is a body, the breath-body, which takes place within > another body. James: I would agree with that interpretation also. I don't think that his interpretation and mine contradict each other. It can be the body-body, breath-body, and cosmos-body. They are all included. > > I don't fully agree with your reading of the Rohitassa Sutta. The sutta > mentions that the cosmos is within the body but also perception & intelect > which is an indication of nama-rupa, and that would make more sense, i.e. > the world or cosmos, within the context of the teachings, is nama- rupa. James: First of all, nama-rupa isn't part of the Buddha's teachings. If you will get that idea out of your head right from the start, you will understand where I am coming from. When the Buddha said cosmos he meant just that: the cosmos (space, planets, and stars, etc.). He didn't mean a code word for nama-rupa. Why do you assume that. You know, reading the commentaries, one would think that the Buddha never really meant what he said, there was always some hidden meaning to what he said. He said that within this fathom-long body is intellect, of course, but there is also the cosmos. How is the entire cosmos within your body? Meditate and you will get a glimpse. Become enlightened and you will know first hand. > > Metta > Michael > > Metta, James 26896 From: buddhatrue Date: Wed Nov 12, 2003 0:30pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Anapanasati Hi Nina, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > Dear James, > Early morning I read your post with the beautiful sutta. Good reflection > during breakfast and in the swimming pool. For a long time we were looking > at far horizons to the beyond, always wanting something else and forgetting > what is right at hand! Let us first go into the sutta. > op 12-11-2003 00:57 schreef buddhatrue op buddhatrue@y...: > The Buddha explained the body within the body clearly in > > the Rohitassa Sutta: > > > > [When this was said, the Blessed One responded:] "I tell you, friend, > > that it is not possible by traveling to know or see or reach a far > > end of the cosmos where one does not take birth, age, die, pass away, > > or reappear. But at the same time, I tell you that there is no making > > an end of suffering & stress without reaching the end of the cosmos. > > Yet it is just within this fathom-long body, with its perception & > > intellect, that I declare that there is the cosmos, the origination > > of the cosmos, the cessation of the cosmos, and the path of practice > > leading to the cessation of the cosmos." > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an04-045.html > > > > This is what I believe the Buddha meant by `knowing the body in the > > body.' Within this finite bag of skin and bones body that we all > > occupy there is a fathom long body, an infinite body. That is what > > we should know. > N: I do not see it as an infinite body. The Buddha says, with its > perceptions and thoughts, and here are all five aggregates included. James: Nina, the words "fathom" and "cosmos" are both variations of infinity. If you can't see what is plainly obvious in this sutta, I am not going to be able to show you over the Internet. This is a matter we would have to discuss face to face. The > aggregates arise because of conditions. So long as there is ignorance there > is rebirth, the arising of the aggregates. The world: another word for the > five aggregates. See Kindred Sayings (IV, Second Fifty, Ch IV, § 82) The > world: the Buddha was asked what the world is; Therefore it is called "the world". What crumbles away? The > eye...objects...eye-consciousness...> > We should develop understanding of the five aggregates so that ignorance is > eradicated and we reach the end of the world, no more rebirth. > Now I look at the Co I have in Thai. It stresses a few points of the sutta. > The Ill is the Ill of being in the cycle. The origination of the world etc. > here the Buddha explained the four noble Truths. The world is the Truth of > suffering (dukkha). The end is the cessation (nibbana) and the practice is > the Path. In the verse it is said, <...Knowing the world's end by becoming > calmed, He longs not for this world or another.> > Co states for calmed: calmed, freed from what is evil. Thus, this refers to > the arahat who has eradicated all that is evil. The highest calm. > J: My question is very simple: According to the > > commentaries, is mindfulness of breathing appropriate for most people > > or only a select few? .... > I take issue with the concept of `rupa' being associated > > with this sutta. If the Buddha had wanted the meditator to > > realize "nama-rupa" he would have said so, there is no reason to put > > words in his mouth. > N:We need patience to study this sutta carefully. If we only look at the > beginning we may miss the point. Before the Buddha's enlightenment people > pratised mindfulness of Breath. The Buddha added a new dimension. People > should realize the three characteristics of all conditioned phenomena, > including breath. They should reach the end of the world! > The body consists of different material elements which do not last at all. > Evenso what we call mind are many different mental moments. These do not > last. When we see them as a whole we will not know their true > characteristics. James: You say a lot here without answering the question. Did the Buddha expound on extraneous matters when he was asked a question and then tell the questioner to be 'patient'? No, he answered whatever question presented to him simply and directly...so much so that his answers were celebrated. Please give me a direct answer, so that I may celebrate. > J: First the Visuddhimagga explains the sutta section, "Breathing in > > long, he knows ³I breathe in long²; or breathing out long, he knows > > ³I breathe out long²," as "Next he defines the in-breaths and out- > > breaths and the body as materiality, and the consciousness and the > > states associated with the consciousness as the immaterial...Having > > defined nama-rupa in this way, he seeks its condition.." But then > > later it is stated in the Visuddhimagga, to explain the recurrent > > term "Body within the Body", as "Why is the word body used twice in > > the phrase: Contemplating the body in the body? For determining the > > object and isolating it, and for sifting out thoroughly of the > > apparent compact nature of things like continuity (santati). > Because there is no contemplation of feeling, citta or dhammas in the > > body, but just the contemplating of the body only..." > > N: He contemplates bodily phenomena, and not at the same time mental > phenomena. He learns that what he takes for "My important body" are only > fleeting material phenomena. > > J:So, first we > > have the body as rupa and then the body isn't rupa, then we have > > citta in the process and then citta isn't in the process. What > > exactly is the Visuddhimagga trying to say? > N: See above. The aggregate of materiality includes all material phenomena, > and thus also all phenomena that constitutes the body. I do not see any > contradiction. James: My point is that you cannont contemplate bodily phenomena without also contemplating mental phenomena. They go hand in hand and are codependent. The commentary doesn't make this obvious, it presents the subject as if one is supposed to 'be able to have his cake and eat it too', in other words to keep them seperate and then together somehow. That is the contradiction I am pointing to. > J: My interpretation of this sutta is different. Knowing when the > > breaths are long or short is just being mindful of the breaths. > > Staying in the present moment by paying attention to the breaths. > > Knowing the `body within the body' is being mindful of just the body, > > as the commentary states, but it is also connecting with the source > > of Nibbana. > N: Understanding of both mental phenomena and material phenomena has to be > developed gradually. Not just bodily phenomena. That is the way to attain > nibbana. Thus, when we are mindful of breath we have to scrutinize > ourselves: what is our mind like at such a moment? Do we take breath for my > breath? Do we cling to breath? Then we do not follow what the Buddha taught: > see conditioned phenomena as impermanent, dukkha and non-self. Mind is > different all the time and we have to study it with great patience. > Nina. Metta, James 26897 From: Date: Wed Nov 12, 2003 5:05am Subject: New member, Jeff Brooks "The bird has its nest, and the dog has its den, but the soul of man has no place to rest." Hello my name is Jeff Brooks and I am relatively new to your list. Quite a few people have asked me to explain who I am and how I have arrived at my understanding of meditation, the absorption states they produce, and the various charisms that accompany those states. I have posted this rather lengthy history and description of my contemplative experience for the members of this list to examine in the hope that it will shed some light on your own experiences, as well as to answer some basic questions about my personal journey. You will see that I have had many influences. Please excuse my rather long story. I should really begin with the proto-contemplative part of my life. That is my dream world. As a child I had a very rich and lucid dream world that I enjoyed pretty much everyday. And, therefore it should not be surprising that my earliest memory is of a lucid dream I had in my crib at about 18 months of age . One of the common themes in my lucid dream-space was annihilation in a flash of white light. At the time I associated those dreams with the Cold War and the nuclear threat. When I was an adolescent I began to have what appeared to be a shift in those lucid dreams, in which I would not notice the passage into sleep. At that time I began to have either paralysis dreams, engulfment by a terrifying blackness, or I would find myself falling or whirling madly across the landscape. At the time these dreams were very frequent and they worried me. I now realize that they were proto-out-of-body experiences, but there was no conversation in my world about out-of-body experiences, so at the time I had no idea out-of-body experiences were even possible. At about the age of 20 I began journaling my dream-world which I still do today. I am certain that this journaling practice contributed to an increasing awareness of my dream state, and thus being at least a partial cause to my out-of-body experiences. That same year I happened to visit an old woman who had at one time been a boarder in my mother's house. Since that year she spent with us, in 1959, she became my surrogate grandmother. She happened to be health conscious and an amateur homeopath as well. It was her rather unique lifestyle and subsequent health, dedication to a spiritual life, and positive outlook that inspired me to follow in her footsteps. In conversation with her that year I happened to tell her I thought I was going crazy because of the frequent "weird" dreams I was having. After I described some of them to her, she said, "Oh dear. You are just having out-of-body experiences." She then explained to me the process of the out-of-body experience, and, as far fetched as it may sound, she revealed to me that she was a crypto-Coptic Christian who had been initiated into out-of-body travel in the 30s by an Egyptian immigrant. She then initiated me also into the same tradition. Over the next few months she instructed me in out-of-body practices, and in about 3 months I had mastered the experience to the point I could leave my body at will, and I did so several times a day. I found I could fly any where and any when I wanted to. That included different planets and solar systems as well. That same year I attended a Silva Mind Control workshop and a year later I attended the advanced Silva Mind Control course taught by Jose Silva himself. For me, Silva Mind Control filled in some of the gaps in the Cotpic out-of-body work I was doing with Francis. In 1973 I also began a twice a day meditation practice, that I am sure empowered me to accomplish the mastery I achieved in out-of-body travel so quickly. Now that 30 years have past, my daily meditation practice has become Three one to two hour sessions a day. And, as a product of that practice I have been experiencing a series of subjective experiences that I have not been able to find anyone to explain with satisfaction. I have however found a reasonable correlation in the literature of the Pali canon and various Hindu scriptures. These subjective experiences have produced regular ecstatic experiences, that conform to some of the descriptions in these various Yoga and Buddhist treatises. In addition to studying Coptic out-of-body techniques, as well as the mind penetration techniques of Silva Mind Control, in 1973 I also began a study of dharma, and I began a daily meditation practice. For the first few years my practice was primarily in the tradition of Advaita Vedanta. A year and a half later I was introduced to the practice of Vipassana in a ten day retreat lead by Robert Hover, who was a student of the Burmese teacher Sayagi U Ba Khin, and a peer of SN Goenka. I have attended about 15 ten day meditation retreats, and about 45 three to five day retreats from a number of excellent teachers in various traditions. Recently I have also attended two 28 day retreats, and I spent 90 days in a Kundalini yoga ashram in 1974. I have had a twice daily meditation practice for almost the whole of the intervening 30 years. The contemplative traditions that I have practiced have been primarily Advaita Vedanta and Theravadan Buddhist, in spite of my early initiation into Egyptian mysticism. I have recently found an excellent complement to these traditions in Mahamudra and Dzogchen for which I have received the various transmissions and empowerments at several 10 and 28 day retreats. The decades of daily meditation practice have produced a series of symptoms, or charisms, as they are called in Christian mysticism. The symptoms that I am experiencing in meditation are: within a few minutes of engaging myself in the observation of the breath, my mind begins to settle to stillness. I understand this state is called shamata in Buddhism. This stillness is stable and unmoved by sensory or mental state variations. I have found this state consistent with the equanimity discussed in the Pali canon. During my meditation practice, my awareness expands, and my concentration becomes more focused. A kind of energy builds gently along my spine, as my meditation deepens. This "energy" seems to correspond to the descriptions I have read about kundalini. Soon after the calm is established I bring my awareness to the tactile field. A series of sensations follow soon after. Typically the sensations I have - other than full body awareness of the surface of my body and the internal organ functions, muscles, circulatory system and connective tissue - are primarily a general full-body vibrator sensation, which is often concentrated in my hands, chest, throat, forehead and top of the head. With the noteworthy exception of the phenomena in the hands, I have found these sensations are coincident with the four upper chakras in the chakra system of the Yogas. And, I have found the generalized full-body vibratory sensation is consistent with the concept of an aura, or a "magnetic" field around the body. These vibratory sensations become the most dominant tactile sensations and soon overwhelm my physical awareness domain. Once the tactile field is resonant with "energy" or sensation, I bring my awareness domain to the sense of hearing. I typically have a light omnidirectional ringing in my ears at all times as an apparent consequence of my daily practice, but when I am in meditation, and I bring my awareness to the ringing, it becomes very loud. This ringing is often sufficiently intense as to be nearly deafening. The sound often goes through a series of frequency changes from a cicada-like chirping, to ringing, to a roaring, like rain, or a water fall, or perhaps the ocean at a distance. I have found that there is often a very gentle bobbing of my head and a gentle swaying of my torso to accompany the above sensations. The bobbing and swaying seems purely autonomic, and appears to be an elastic response in the frame of the body caused by blood pulsing in my legs, torso and neck without the counter balancing effect of muscles, which have become relaxed due to meditation, and therefore don't hold the neck and torso in check. Often shock waves like a deep shiver also run up my spine at intermittent intervals, at which time my fingers and lips may twitch and my torso becomes very erect This sudden increase in energy often causes the period of the oscillations of my torso and neck to become more rapid in the same way a guitar string oscillates more rapidly if drawn taught. In company with the shock waves is usually a sensation of intense ecstasy, which culminates in a sense of luminosity. I have found this has been described as the classic kundalini phenomena in the yoga literature. Since I practiced Vipassana meditation in the tradition of Sayagi U Ba Khin, I was introduced to contemplative practice in various forms of body scanning in the tactile field. Over the years I have modified my meditation practice as a consequence of experience, deepening concentration and broadening awareness. I've found that scanning is no longer necessary for me. I now follow the full practice set that is described in the Satipatthana Sutta, which supersedes the classic Vipassana practice regimen. I have found body scanning, like any other concentration technique, seems to serve the primary purpose of occupying the mind until it comes to rest. Since I can settle my mind fairly quickly in calm abiding (shamata), I have found I can simply observe the tactile field as a totality. Once I'm observing the whole of the tactile field, then this whole-body vibratory sensation soon emerges. Once I'm established in calm abiding through observing the tactile field, I begin to observe the other sense fields simultaneously. I usually add the sense field of sound next which eventually becomes, as I have said, a ringing. The ringing is really much more a combination of sounds such as ringing, whirring, buzzing, chirping, and a rushing sound all at the same time. I believe the ringing in the ears is to the auditory gate, as the vibrations are to the tactile gate. I have found through the international dialog that is taking place on the Jhana Support Group that both of these manifestations are classic charisms (nimitta) in their respective sense fields. During these deep absorption states I have found the other senses have their own manifestations of unique expression, or charisms, as well. Therefore the charisms appear to manifest in their own unique ways in each sense gate. In the progression of my daily sit I eventually observe all of the senses at once. Simultaneously observing the manifestations of charisms in all of the sense fields becomes something like witnessing a symphony of pleasant sensations in all 7 senses. I recently examined a translation of the Samadhanga Sutta, a chapter of the Pali cannon that describes the absorption states (jhanas). I found it too poetic to receive adequate direction from, but it describes how the aspirant becomes progressively more soaked, or saturated in ecstasy in each of 8 successive absorption states (jhanas/samadhis/dhyanas). In interpreting this sutta, it seems that ecstasy (jhana) is the manifestation of charisms, or the Pali term 'nimitta', in its various unique forms in the sense fields. My conclusion is, I have experienced all of the absorption states (jhanas/samadhis/dhyanas). And, since equanimity is the underlying and dominant condition of my 'mind,' and equanimity is the telltale factor for determining the fourth and highest material absorption (jhana), it appears that I have arrived at and sustain the fourth jhana on a daily basis. From examining various chapters of the Pali canon, it seems that the trajectory toward enlightenment is to go through these ecstatic absorption states (jhanas) on one's way to the subjective experiences the Buddha described as "unification of consciousness." These states are typified by the lucid subjective experience of merging with infinite time, space, consciousness and non-dualism (neither this nor that), which are called the arupa jhanas, or non-material absorptions. The descriptions of spiritual ecstasy and enlightenment in the Pali canon seem to indicate the absorption states are altered states of consciousness through which we must pass to arrive at nibbana. Nibbana (nirvana in Sanskrit) is an annihilation, or cessation, of the self in the infinite. I have found when I just go with the surges of energy (kundalini) and other manifestations (nimitta), then I pass through the various unification and cessation stages, which occur to me at random intervals, but many times each year. To go deeper into equanimity I have found relinquishing grasping is essential. I have found that grasping clearly hinders the progression of the absorption states, so relinquishing grasping is central to my practice at this time. In fact I have found that a grasping "event" immediately precedes a mind event, or ripple of disturbance on the otherwise quiet flow of my awareness (equanimity). Consequently, my mindfulness practice for many years now has been primarily focused on observing the rising and falling of grasping and aversion in response to the senses. In this way I have endeavored to relinquish any hold or obstruction on the senses. During the deepening of my meditation I notice a progression of increasing concentration and corresponding expanding awareness, which often causes a bit of a shift in my focus and my breathing at discrete moments. I have found if I flow spontaneously with these shifts, then the various absorption states arise. These shifts in focus and breathing seem to precede the surges up my spine, which can be of sufficient force as to give me the sensation as though I'm going to be lifted off the zaffu. It does seem at times, that if the energy rising up my spine got anymore intense, my brain would pop out of the top of my head. It can be a bit disconcerting at times, but that is when I have found it is best to practice non-grasping to even the body. As this energy surges up my spine I undergo this series of shifts in focus, which eventually concludes in a wall of light that impinges on my psyche to the point of overwhelming my identity. At that moment it seems even identity must be relinquished as well (anatta). It seems that the trajectory is to get to a place where one doesn't cling to anything, not even to identity. It is this experience that seems to be what the historic Buddha called cessation (nibbana). I have been meditating 3 to 4 hours a day for several years now. Every time I sit I enjoy some part or all of the above described sensations. I have found that when I begin and end each day with these pleasant sensations my days and nights are filled with charisms (nimitta), as well as pleasant thoughts and feelings. Everyday I fill each moment with mindful observation of these sensations, and I attentively avoid grasping and aversion. Consequently equanimity pervades or permeates my waking and sleep state. In fact from the moment I first become aware of this body, until the moment that sleep overcomes this body, I am filled with more happiness and contentment than I can recall ever having. And I am always filled with the sweetest sensation of love, as though I have a new romance, but there is no object to my love. This practice and these sensations have even pervaded my sleep state, because I no longer seem to go unconscious when I rest at night, As I rest the body at night I observe mindfuly the progression of my repose, which is a succession of deepening relaxation, and lengthening or slowing breath, until there is a flash of blackness and a timelessness in which I lose awareness of the body. Eventually dreams arise and move one from the next throughout the night. These dreams by the way are as lucid as the waking reality. Eventually around 4 AM each morning I become aware of the body again. I sit to meditate for an hour or two before my son awakes and I begin my day. The pervasion of my awareness into my sleep domain has also produced a kind of shattering of my sense of reality, as well as producing a lack of dependence on a linear time/space domain. My dreams are often so lucid as to be indistinguishable from what we call "waking reality." Consequently, even though I "awake" every morning to this "reality, I frequently "awaken" to other seamlessly real and equally engaging realities. But these "realities" are not in this space/time domain. The consequence is that I cannot with conviction state that this reality is any more real than the other realities that I encounter. I believe this is the realization of much of the material within Advaita Vedanta and Mahamudra, in which the very nature of the subject-object reality is called into question. It is a bit disconcerting not knowing to which reality I can "rely" on, or to which I will find myself in the next moment. This lack of reliance on a time/space domain has produced a lack of dependence on external references. Thus a great ambivalence toward the objects of the senses has arisen in me. As a consequence I seem to have no ambition for anything in life. I have no interest in a career. I do not care for a relationship, or to acquiring progeny. I have no interest in acquiring anything, such as land or a home. I have no thought toward acquiring wealth, or a retirement. I do not even care if I get sick, or how long I live. Death could come in the next moment, and it would mean nothing to me. And, interestingly enough, I have no fear of the dark. Another interesting property of my life, is I can't seem to gain my balance. I often feel ever so slightly off balance. I believe this "vertigo" is related to the heightened awareness I have developed for my senses. One of the most over looked senses is our sense of balance, which comes from sensors in the inner ear. It is this sense of balance though that is critical to our species method of bipedal locomotion. I believe the sense of euphoria one experiences during the ecstasies is a charism characteristic of a heightened awareness the sense of balance. It is this, perhaps overly acute, awareness of the sense of balance that keeps me feeling slightly off balance, almost as though I am drunk. I am 50 years old and a single parent of two children. My spiritual practice has been something that I have arranged in the quiet times after the children and spouse have gone off to sleep. The spouse left long ago. My oldest has already graduated from college, and my youngest is 6 months from leaving home for college. Once he has left home I plan to dedicate the whole of my energies to my spiritual practice, the furthering of the dharma, and the teaching of students. I am now wanting to spend all of my time in meditation, so I seek retreat opportunities wherever I can find them. I spend all of my vacation time at meditation retreats, which amounts to about 60 days of retreat time each year. My only interest in life is maintaining these subjective experiences, and directing others in their practice. I originally sent this description of my subjective experiences out as a letter to every dharma teacher, Bhikkhu and lama I could find an address for. I received only a few replies. From Shinzen Young of the Vipassana Support Institute I found out the Pali name for these experiences is 'Jhana'. From Leigh Brasington I found out Satipatthana is the practice tradition within Theravadan Buddhism that supports these experiences. From Bhante Gunaratana of the Bhavana Society I acquired an excellent list of suttas that support the experience. And, from Joseph Goldstein of Insight Meditation Society (IMS) I learned that it is common for their students attending the IMS three month intensive retreat to have vertigo problems. But, since I have found almost no one who can speak on these subjects authoritatively I have started a Yahoo group to support people who have these experiences. It is a peer-level group, because I have found quite a few people, like myself, have had some or all of these same experiences. And, among the personal records on the Jhana Support Group I have found there is an authentic commonality in our subjective experiences to warrant some generalizations. The Jhana Support Group forum has attracted over 180 people in a peer level community of contemplatives who support each other in their meditation practices. Therefore if you are having any of the above symptoms (charisms) in your practice and you would like to have validation and direction, then do subscribe today. Jhana Support Group A support group for ecstatic contemplatives website http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Jhanas/ Subscribe: Jhanas-subscribe@yahoogroups.com Please excuse my rather long story. I can only hope that I have been of even a small help to a few of you. My only wish is to benefit all beings with every thought, word, action and resource. May you begin each day and end each day with bliss, and may your days and nights be filled with joy. Jeff Brooks November, 2003 26898 From: Michael Beisert Date: Wed Nov 12, 2003 2:57pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Worry Nina, Thank you for your welcome. Fully agree. Well thought. Metta Michael >From: nina van gorkom >Reply-To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com >To: >Subject: Re: [dsg] Worry >Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2003 19:07:08 +0100 > >Hi Michael, >Welcome to this group. I hope you will find it useful. >I think also after committing evil, you can regret and then have the >wholesome shame. You realize what you have done. You make the intention not >to do this evil again, with shame and fear in the wholesome way.Cittas >change all the time, then kusala, then akusala, etc. Thus, it all depends >on >the citta that arises. > >Nina. >op 11-11-2003 19:39 schreef Michael Beisert op mbeisert@h...: > > > Hello Andrew, > > > > I have joined this discussion list and would like to give my >contribution. I > > think the mix up starts by considering hiri/ottappa as backward looking. >If > > you look at the Abhidhammattha Sangaha on pg 86, it says that >hiri/ottappa > > 'has the function of not doing evil and are manifested as the shrinking >away > > from evil.' Therefore they are very much active prior to commiting any > > action and not as a reflection on what has already happened. > 26899 From: robmoult Date: Wed Nov 12, 2003 3:58pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Accumulations, Conditions Hi Nina, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > You wrote before that you intended to develop all ten akusala kamma pathas > for the next three months. I was wondering, how can Rob plan it that way? ===== Did I write that I wanted to develop the "ten akusala kamma pathas"??? I meant that I wanted to develop the "ten punna-kiriya vatthu" :-) :-) :-) The string on my wrist is a condition to remind me of my recent kusala kamma. Putting the ten bases of meritorius actions on a "to do list" as part of daily planning is another way of creating more conditons to support more kusala. Planning for kusala is itself wholesome. Performing kusala with all one's heart is wholesome. Sharing the merits accrued is wholesome. Remembering past kusala is wholesome. I am using "modern business concepts" (to do list, daily planning, etc.) to support timeless wisdom. I will be meeting K. Sujin, Betty, Sukin and others in a few hours. I am really looking forward to it! Metta, Rob M :-) 26900 From: Date: Wed Nov 12, 2003 4:42pm Subject: Vis. XIV 38, 39, 40, 41 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) Ch. XIV 38. 2. The ear's characteristic is sensitivity of primary elements that is ready for the impact of sounds; or its characteristic is sensitivity of primary elements originated by kamma sourcing from desire to hear. Its function is to pick up [an object] among sounds. It is manifested as the footing of ear-consciousness. Its proximate cause is primary elements born of kamma sourcing from desire to hear. 39. 3. The nose's characteristic is sensitivity of primary elements that is ready for the impact of odours; or its characteristic is sensitivity of primary elements originated by kamma sourcing from desire to smell. Its function is to pick up [an object] among odours. It is manifested as the footing of nose-consciousness. Its proximate cause is primary elements sourcing from desire to smell. 40. 4. The tongue's characteristic is sensitivity of primary elements that is ready for the impact of flavours; or its characteristic is sensitivity of primary elements originated by kamma sourcing from desire to taste. Its function is to pick up [an object] among flavours. It is manifested as the footing of tongue-consciousness. Its proximate cause is primary elements born of kamma sourcing from desire to taste. 41. 5. The body's characteristic is sensitivity of primary elements that is ready for the impact of tangible data; or its characteristic is sensitivity of primary elements originated by kamma sourcing from desire to touch. Its function is to pick up [an object] among tangible data. It is manifested as the footing of body-consciousness. Its proximate cause is primary elements born of kamma sourcing from desire to touch. 26901 From: Date: Wed Nov 12, 2003 7:23pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vis. XIV 38, 39, 40, 41 "The ear's characteristic is sensitivity of primary elements that is ready for the impact of sounds;..." Hi all, I think "primary elements" here refers to the sensitive matter of the sense organs. We could say the 4 element group repeatedly arises in a certain continuum that is _ready_ for the impact of sound etc. This means the ear doesn't cease to exist when we see. (This may have some philosophical significance.) I'm not sure if the "impact" of sound with sensitive matter is the same as "contact" (phassa). There will be further discussion on the nature of sensitive matter in the next few paragraphs. Larry 26902 From: shakti Date: Wed Nov 12, 2003 8:22pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Accumulations, Conditions Hi Rob, You wrote: The string on my wrist is a condition to remind me of my recent kusala kamma. Putting the ten bases of meritorius actions on a "to do list" as part of daily planning is another way of creating more conditons to support more kusala. Planning for kusala is itself wholesome. Performing kusala with all one's heart is wholesome. Sharing the merits accrued is wholesome. Remembering past kusala is wholesome. I am using "modern business concepts" (to do list, daily planning, etc.) to support timeless wisdom.that you want to share the merit _________________________ Shakti: I was wondering how do you share the merits that you accrued?? Hope that you had a wonderful visit with Khun Sujin, Sukin, Betty and others. Let us know how it went. With metta, Shakti robmoult wrote: Hi Nina, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > You wrote before that you intended to develop all ten akusala kamma pathas > for the next three months. I was wondering, how can Rob plan it that way? ===== Did I write that I wanted to develop the "ten akusala kamma pathas"??? I meant that I wanted to develop the "ten punna-kiriya vatthu" :-) :-) :-) I will be meeting K. Sujin, Betty, Sukin and others in a few hours. I am really looking forward to it! Metta, Rob M :-) 26903 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Nov 12, 2003 9:21pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Accumulations, Conditions Dear Rob M, What a mistake. Of course, kusala, only kusala!! Spelling mistake, carelessness. Sorry. Nina. op 13-11-2003 00:58 schreef robmoult op rob.moult@j...: > > Did I write that I wanted to develop the "ten akusala kamma > pathas"??? I meant that I wanted to develop the "ten punna-kiriya > vatthu" :-) :-) :-) 26904 From: Sarah Date: Wed Nov 12, 2003 10:07pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Accumulations - for comment/Anapanasati Hi Michael, (Icaro & any Newbies) I greatly appreciated your introduction. We have at least a couple of other Brazilian members: - Leonardo who is a full-time lurker and Icaro who you’ll ‘meet’ very soon;-) Icaro likes to study the Visuddhimagga in German or check out Indonesian websites, when he needs a break from Portuguese, English, Pali and I forget what else. You’ll get on well. --- Michael Beisert wrote: > Sarah, <..> > Currently I am retired and fully dedicated to the Dhamma. My > interest > in Buddhism started about 10 years ago and gradually has increased over > the > years. About 3 years ago I started a web site with sutta and essays > translation to Portuguese. ..... This is great to hear. Hopefully, we’ll hear plenty from you. Perhaps you can give us a link to your website, so we can take a peek. There are bound to be other members here who speak/understand Portuguese. ..... <..> I would love to live in a Theravada country to > enjoy > Buddhism from the inside but currently am bound to the place I live by > my > son who is still a freshman in high school. But after he gets to college > I > hope that wish will materialize. .... I think the main factor in ‘enjoying Buddhism from the inside’ has to do with right understanding and the development of awareness rather than living in a particular place. Now you have time and access to the Teachings and obviously are making the best use of resources. Nonetheless, hope you can travel and maybe meet us in Asia one day;-) ..... M:> Going back to our conversation, I have to say that I am not that > familiar > with the writings of Buddhaghosa. It’s funny because the Visuddhimagga > was > one of the very first books I bought on Theravada Buddhism but never > came > around to really read and study. ..... Let me see if we can help, especially given your interest in Pali as well;-) First, let me explain to you and any other Newbies that at present, we’re working through the last part (part 111) of the Visuddhimagga, transl by ~Naa.namoli, as a group text. This is the large section of the text, starting at ch X1V and called Understanding (Pa~n~naa). It helps to have a copy of the text, but in any case the installments posted so far can be found, together with the Pali, in Files, almost at the bottom where it says: z VismX1Vlinks.htm, posted by Jon. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/ It would be easy to print these out. Each installment on list (given by Larry) is discussed and often Nina gives extra details and sub-commentary translations. The latter and some of the more detailed notes can be found in U.P. under ‘Visuddhimagga’, almost at the end: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/Useful_Posts We’d be delighted if you or anyone else join in the threads anytime. You’re also most welcome to pick up any of the previous installments for further discussion. No questions or comments are too basic or too late. .... Before this difficult text, we went through Nina’s ‘Abhidhamma in Daily Life’ and Soma’s translation of the Satipatthana Sutta commentary and sub-commentary in the same way. If anyone wants help locating any of the threads or discussions, pls ask. ..... M:>I have only occasionally browsed > through > it. But one of the critics raised by DK in his book is the use by > Buddhaghosa of essencialist perspectives which cannot be traced back to > the > original scriptures of the Canon. ..... I think we’d need to look at specific references to discuss this any further. I’m not saying it is so in this case (I have no idea at all), but often we’ve found here that the most vehement critics of Buddhaghosa, the commentaries or the Abhidhamma are people who have studied these texts very little if at all. Many of the criticisms (if not all;-)) do not stand up to careful scrutiny of the texts. One thing for sure, all the teachings revolve around the understanding of presently arising ultimate realities (paramatha dhammas) or khandhas and the knowledge that these are anatta. It just depends whether there are the right conditions for there to be enough detachment and wisdom to appreciate the reminders from any of these texts when we read and consider them, as I see it. With metta, Sarah p.s Icaro: thx for thinking of us at busy bootcamp - metta and kisses from all at DSG too;-) We’re counting the days til you and Dhammasangani return. ===== 26905 From: Sarah Date: Wed Nov 12, 2003 10:59pm Subject: Re: [dsg] New member, Jeff Brooks Hi Jeff, --- macdocaz1@a... wrote: > J:<..> > Hello my name is Jeff Brooks and I am relatively new to your list. > Quite a > few people have asked me to explain who I am .... I wouldn’t say ‘relatively new’. In case you’ve forgotten, you started posting on DSG last April and introduced yourself and your experiences at that time;-) http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/index.html?by=Author&a=macdocaz1 Whilst I think that it’s always interesting to read and hear about people’s past experiences -- and there’s no doubt that yours are particularly colourful -- the past has gone completely. I think we all tend to cling to past special experiences and sometimes try to fit the texts to match any unusual phenomena, but surely this is just indicative of the clinging at this moment and lack of any understanding of what is presently arising? ... J:<...> > Since I practiced Vipassana meditation in the tradition of Sayagi U Ba > Khin, > I was introduced to contemplative practice in various forms of body > scanning > in the tactile field. Over the years I have modified my meditation > practice as > a consequence of experience, deepening concentration and broadening > awareness. > I've found that scanning is no longer necessary for me. I now follow > the > full practice set that is described in the Satipatthana Sutta, which > supersedes > the classic Vipassana practice regimen. .... So how do you understand the ‘full practice’ described in the SS as it applies to this moment? Is there any self that can practice? .... J: <..> > I have found body scanning, like any other concentration technique, > seems to > serve the primary purpose of occupying the mind until it comes to rest. > Since > I can settle my mind fairly quickly in calm abiding (shamata), I have > found I > can simply observe the tactile field as a totality. Once I'm observing > the > whole of the tactile field, then this whole-body vibratory sensation > soon emerges. ..... Is this what is described in the SS as you read it? Would you explain what you mean by “I” that can ‘simply observe’? Perhaps you’d like to share a short extract for further discussion. .... J: <...> > Once I'm established in calm abiding through observing the tactile > field, I > begin to observe the other sense fields simultaneously. I usually add > the sense > field of sound next which eventually becomes, as I have said, a ringing. > The > ringing is really much more a combination of sounds such as ringing, > whirring, > buzzing, chirping, and a rushing sound all at the same time. .... Jeff, who is observing? Is it a self that observes and selects objects? Is there any suggestion in any of the Tipitaka that sense fields can be experienced or observed ‘simultaneously’? Whether we are discussing the development of satipatthana leading to the development of the eightfold path and realization of nibbana, or the development of samatha leading to jhanas, I understand that the practice has to be now and has to be with clear comprehension. There has to be clear comprehension right from the beginning about the distinction between moments of kusala (wholesome consciousness and associated states) and akusala (unwholesome) . If there isn’t this distinction or any precise knowledge of the object of bhavana (mental development), ignorance and wrong view and wrong concentration will lead us further and further down the wrong track. As I’m sure you know, jhana and path factors such as understanding, effort and concentration can be wholesome or unwholesome, right or wrong. As you appreciate reading the suttas, I’m sure you will appreciate that the essential message of the Buddha’s teaching was with regard to anatta. The practice has to develop with an understanding of namas and rupas as anatta from the very beginning. Clinging to a self and particular experiences doesn’t need to be developed. It is already the cause of dukkha. The following is a quote from B.Bodhi’s introduction to the Brahmajala sutta: “The clinging to being issues in a ‘personality view’ (sakkaayadi.t.thi)affirming the presence of an abiding self in the pyschophysical organism in one of twenty ways: as identical with, possessing, contained within or containing one or another of the five aggregates that constitute the individual personality - material form, feeling, perception, mental formations and consciousness. Arisen already at the pre-reflective level,this view in turn becomes the basis for latter reflective interpretations of existence, crystallizing into the sixty-two views of the sutta. As it is explained: “Now, householder, as to those divers views that arise in the world, ...and as to these sixty-two views set forth in the Brahmajala, it is owing to the personality view that they arise, and if the personality view exists not, they do not exist” (S 1V 7.3). “Since the notion of selfhood is accepted uncritically at the level of ordinary experience, higher attainments in meditation, as the Brahmajala shows, will not suffice to eliminate the notion but will only reinforce it by providing apparent verification of the self originally presupposed at the outset of practice. It is as if one were to lead a man wearing red-tinted glasses from a small room to an open field. The change of scene will not alter the colour of his vision, for as long as he is wearing red glasses everything he sees will be coloured red.” ***** Nyantiloka’s dictionary also has a useful section under ‘Di.t.thi’ http://www.palikanon.com/english/wtb/b_f/ditthi.htm Wishing you well, Jeff. I know you probably won’t appreciate these direct comments, but you’re welcome to disagree or discuss them further. With metta, Sarah ====== 26906 From: rjkjp1 Date: Wed Nov 12, 2003 11:27pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Accumulations - for comment/Anapanasati In dhammastdygroup@yahoogroups.com, "bodhi2500" wrote: >> It is said, "Anapanasati is difficult,difficult to develop, a field > in which only the minds of Buddhas,paccekabuddhas and Buddhas sons > are at home" and "The most difficult of the 40 meditation subjects" > > > Why then is anapanasati recommended for a "Moha carita person"? > > What is the definition of "Buddhas sons"? ============ Dear Steve, I think the texts indicate that the Buddha's sons means Mahapurisa, those with great accumulations. When you look at the other 37 objects of samatha in the Visuddhimagga we see that only anapanasati is singled out for this special attention. Anapanasati is the samatha object that all the Buddha's use on the eve of their attainment, it is such a wonderful object for those who can develop it. But that doesn't mean it is easy. From visuddimagga 211 viii the pali: Ki~ncaapi hi ya.mki~nci kamma.t.thaana.m satassa sampajaanasseva sampajjati. Ito a~n~na.m pana manasikarontassa paaka.ta.m hoti. Ida.m pana aanaapaanassatikamma.t.thaana.m garuka.m garukabhaavana.m buddhapaccekabuddhabuddhaputtaana.m mahaapurisaa na.myeva manasikaarabhuumibhuuta.m, na ceva ittara.m, na ca ittarasattasamaasevita.m. Yathaa yathaa manasi kariiyati, tathaa tathaa santa ~nceva hoti sukhuma~nca. Tasmaa ettha balavatii sati ca pa~n~naa ca icchitabbaa. =============== It is a stock phrase in the commentaries with regard to anapanasati. E.g: Patisambhidhimagga -atthakatha anapanassatikatha and in the Commentary to vinaya Parajika khanda attakatha . There are other places too. ============= You wonder why in the Visuddhimagga Buddhaghosa in one section says it is the hardest of all samatha objects and in another says that it is suitable for the mohacarita, one with a temperament on the ignorant side? As I mentioned in an earlier letter anapanasati is suitable for both mohacarita as RoBM mentioned and also the vitakkacaritassa (discursive ) type. The six temperaments come in pairs: so the one of hating temperament is parallel to the one of intelligent temperament in that both are disaffected and do not cling; hating in an unprofitable way and intelligence in a profitable way. The discursive type has many applied thoughts due to thinking over various aspects. Anapanasati is the meditation which especially stills vitakka and vicara, which both vittakka and mohacarissa types have a lot of. The Visuddhimagga III 122 "Mindfulness of breathing should be developed for the purpose of cutting off of applied thought.." Interesting to see that the one of greedy temperament - who when doing any task "acts skillfully, gently evenly and carefully" should ideally not have much time in a sitting posture when trying to devlop samatha:"the right kind of posture for him is standing or walking"III 98. Back to the question: why give the most difficult of all subjects to the one of deluded temperament? Because it is the outstanding one for cutting off thinking, and the deluded temperament conjectures unskillfully about all manner of things. Does this then mean that it is easy to develop? No, as the Visuddhimagga says it is the most difficult. Can the one of deluded temperament develop it then? Yes, if they have the parami etc. No, if not. Remember that one can have enormous skillful parami and still be one of the `not so good` in temperament. This is because the temperament is to a large degree decided by the the type of rebirth producing kamma in this life. There are also other classifications of recommended objects. Death, maranasati, for example, is recommended for the one of intelligent temperament when considering the carita. But it is recommended for all when considering by way of its great helpfulness (vis. iii 59) Again metta is recommended for the one with hate temperament when considering carita but is said to be good for all when considered by way of its "general usefulness" and "great helpfulness" iii59. Note that even though metta is said to be especially suitable for the hating type it doesn`t necessarily follow that the one of hating temperament will succeed in developing jhana by using it. The same for breath and the mohacaritassa. RobertK 26907 From: Sarah Date: Wed Nov 12, 2003 11:49pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vis. XIV 38, 39, 40, 41 Hi Larry, It always helps when you start the ball rolling.... --- LBIDD@w... wrote: > "The ear's characteristic is sensitivity of primary elements that is > ready for the impact of sounds;..." > > Hi all, > > I think "primary elements" here refers to the sensitive matter of the > sense organs. ... Yes, the primary elements as found in the sensitive matter of the ear where hearing takes places. Keep in mind the following definition of the ‘primary elements’: >”35. Herein (a) "primary materiality" is of four kinds as the earth element, water element, fire element, and air element. Their characteristic, function, and manifestation have been given under the definition of the four elements (Ch. XI, 87, 93); but as to the proximate cause, each has the other three as its proximate cause. [444]” .... >We could say the 4 element group repeatedly arises in a > certain continuum that is _ready_ for the impact of sound etc. This > means the ear doesn't cease to exist when we see. (This may have some > philosophical significance.) > I'm not sure if the "impact" of sound with > sensitive matter is the same as "contact" (phassa). ... Certainly if phassa didn’t arise with the hearing citta, there’d be no ‘impact’, so it’s a necessary condition, along with the sound, the eye-base, kamma to bring about vipaka result and so on. .... >There will be > further discussion on the nature of sensitive matter in the next few > paragraphs. .... Good. Again it’s easier to follow if one leaves aside one’s knowledge from science I think. Metta, Sarah ====== 26908 From: nordwest Date: Wed Nov 12, 2003 11:30pm Subject: What is Self-power? The term "Self-power" would mean, that there is a "Self" that has power. But - I suppose, we all agree - that there is no Self, the term "Self" is totally empty, or in other words, an illusion. So then, what is it that has power, if there is no Self? The answer is, the Mind has power. OK, so let us see... what is the mind? Original it is a Pure Mind, the mind of the Buddha you may say, the enlightened mind. But our mind is defiled, it is not pure. Where does the mind get it's knowledge from? Don't answer with 'the brain, the eyes, the ears, the senses..." because this is not correct. If it were correct, than all the buddhas would be blind, deaf, and senseless beings.. I don't think they are such handicapped. We rely on the eyes and ears, because we are too stupid to understand that we are not this body at all, we are merely "imprisoned" by our limited senses. The Pure Mind has knowledge about everything, it is the enlightened mind that is beyond time and space, it travels the universe and there is nothing it doesn't understand or know, it is our original mind. How come the mind of the Buddha, the Pure Mind, can grasp the entire universe, all that is? The answer is: because it is One with everything that is. There are no two things such as universe-here and universe-there. There is no space and time for the buddha. So, we see things with this very mind.. only that our mind is defiled. But it is still one with everything... we just have no clear view to the universal wisdom. In other words, our Self-power is in reality the power of all that is, the power of the One. There is no difference, no dualism. No mind is seperated from anything. What is the Buddha? He is one with the universe too. - The buddha is One with the universe, and your mind is One with universe. So the Other-power is Self-power anyway, if you want it or not. ;) You use this Other-power a billion times a day without being aware of it. So when we recite the Nembutsu, the buddha-name, or visualize the Buddha, or contemplate the buddha, then we have Pure Thoughts. The Pure Thought cleans the defiled mind and when this Pure Thought becomes a samadhi, a constant thought, than the mind is constantly pure. Than you are enlightened. So the "Other power" is in reality totally "Self-power". The Buddha wis never seperated from us, or from our mind... only WE think that we are seperated beings... well, this is why we are in samsara, isn't it? NAMU AMIDA BUTSU! Yours in the Dharma, Thomas 26909 From: buddhatrue Date: Thu Nov 13, 2003 1:07am Subject: [dsg] Re: Accumulations - for comment/Anapanasati --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > Hi Michael, (Icaro & any Newbies) I think we'd need to look at specific references to discuss this any > further. I'm not saying it is so in this case (I have no idea at all), but > often we've found here that the most vehement critics of Buddhaghosa, the > commentaries or the Abhidhamma are people who have studied these texts > very little if at all. Many of the criticisms (if not all;-)) do not stand > up to careful scrutiny of the texts. Hi Sarah, Could you give some specific examples of criticisms that did not stand up after careful scrutiny of the texts? If you want specifics for certain claims I think you should also provide specifics for your claims. Metta, James 26910 From: Sarah Date: Thu Nov 13, 2003 1:27am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Accumulations - for comment/Anapanasati Hi James, --- buddhatrue wrote: > S: > Many of the criticisms (if not all;-)) do > not stand > > up to careful scrutiny of the texts. > > > Hi Sarah, > > Could you give some specific examples of criticisms that did not > stand up after careful scrutiny of the texts? If you want specifics > for certain claims I think you should also provide specifics for your > claims. ... Ok, I’ll start;-) Some specifics were used in these detailed posts (mostly by RobertK) with regard to Buddhadasa Bhikkhu’s criticisms about Buddhaghosa, particularly on: paticcasamuppada and rebirth 20495, 20512, 20530, 25185 (If the links don’t work, pls key in the numbers on the home-page) http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup We can look at any other specifics anyone else wishes us to look at - preferably with references to the Vism or other commentaries, rather than just general comments. Metta, Sarah ====== 26911 From: Sukinderpal Singh Narula Date: Thu Nov 13, 2003 1:39am Subject: New Photos Hi all, Just added two new pics of this afternoon's meeting with Rob M. and others. It is in the 'Members' section. Sukin 26912 From: robmoult Date: Thu Nov 13, 2003 3:54am Subject: Meeting with K. Sujin Hi All, A few hours ago, I met with K. Sujin, her sister, Ivan, El, Betty and Sukin for lunch in Bangkok. After lunch, I explained my understanding of Natural Decisive Support condition and concluded by noting that it seemed like an extremely important condition. Khun Sujin agreed that it was an important condition but noted that there were other important conditions as well. She then asked in a direct manner, "but how does it link to the present moment?" Her question took me aback. She went on to say, "There are moments of vipaka, moments of kiriya, moments of kusala and moments of akusala. It is important to be aware of each moment." Ivan took over and expanded on her points at length. One particularly vivid analogy given by Ivan was of a movie film. When we watch a film at the theatre, what we are seeing is a very large number of single picture frames images projected in succession. Each picture frame image does not contain a story. Our mind merges the images together to create a story; a story that is intended by the director of the film (moha), but is not inherent in any of the images (sorry Ivan, I have extended your metaphor a bit by adding in moha the director - not seen directly, but a central influencer of the movie). Ivan then posited that the value of the Abhidhamma was the description it gave of the present moment; Ivan suggested that the link to the present moment was his litmus test of the value of various portions of the Abhidhamma. I realized that it was important to have the proper outlook on the Abhidhamma ("right view"). I had not considered this perspective on the Abhidhamma. My mind kept "proliferating"; trying to consider the implications of this viewpoint. At the same time, Ivan kept talking, giving more analogies and more explanations that kept coming back to the topic of anatta. After almost three hours, my mind was close to overload. I need time to ruminate and adjust my paradigms. I must admit that I had heard almost all of the concepts before (from Sarah, Jon and Nina's writings), but the same words in a different situation can condition different reactions. In summary, conditions were conducive for the accumulation of passaddhi (tranquility), lahuta (agility / lightness / buoyancy), muduta (pliancy / elasticity), kammannata (wieldiness / adaptability / workableness), pagunnata (proficiency) and ujjukata (uprightness / rectitude). Metta, Rob M :-) PS: The food (Indian / Chinese) was good, too :-) 26913 From: buddhatrue Date: Thu Nov 13, 2003 3:55am Subject: [dsg] Re: Accumulations - for comment/Anapanasati --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > Hi James, > > --- buddhatrue wrote: > > S: > Many of the criticisms (if not all;-)) do > > not stand > > > up to careful scrutiny of the texts. > > > > > > Hi Sarah, > > > > Could you give some specific examples of criticisms that did not > > stand up after careful scrutiny of the texts? If you want specifics > > for certain claims I think you should also provide specifics for your > > claims. > ... > Ok, I'll start;-) Some specifics were used in these detailed posts (mostly > by RobertK) with regard to Buddhadasa Bhikkhu's criticisms about > Buddhaghosa, particularly on: > > paticcasamuppada and rebirth > > 20495, 20512, 20530, 25185 > > (If the links don't work, pls key in the numbers on the home-page) > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup > > We can look at any other specifics anyone else wishes us to look at - > preferably with references to the Vism or other commentaries, rather than > just general comments. > > Metta, > > Sarah > ====== Hi Sarah, Yes, I remember this thread, as I did participate in it. It did not, as you claim, disprove anything or prove anything. I raised an important point in regards to Robert K's posts: "Also, Robert K's post was not the unilateral disqualification of all of the views of Buddhadasa that you both seem to purport it as being. He simply questioned some of Buddhadasa's interpretations using his own analysis. Personally, I didn't find it conclusive in any regard because he didn't quote the actual words and analysis of Buddhadasa, but he did quote the actual words of Buddhaghosa. That is not a fair or comprehensive comparison. To paraphrase one and then direly [sic. directly] quote the other may be a misrepresentation of both and more strongly of the views of Buddhadasa; which I am not saying with all certainty that that is what occurred." To which Robert K replied (post 20527): "Well I tried to summarize his arguments fairly. It ran to many pages so I couldn't quote them all. Unfortunately the book is up in Japan but I have a few more notes so might add these later. I think I could write even more on points where I agree with Buddhadasa, but my aim in this case was to respond only to his criticisms of Buddhaghosa and the Visuddhimagga." That was the last we heard about it. Now, in my mind this issue hasn't been resolved or proven. Buddhadasa has several pages of arguments to prove his position against Buddhaghosa and absolutely none of them are quoted, just summarized (which the summary may or may not be accurate). Most importantly, we are missing his EVIDENCE! If he has several pages of argumentation and proof, I would like to read them. Until then, nothing is resolved. I find this example moot. Could you please provide another? Metta, James 26914 From: bodhi2500 Date: Thu Nov 13, 2003 4:19am Subject: [dsg] Re: Accumulations - for comment/Anapanasati Hi Robert Thankyou for your reply. Steve "rjkjp1" wrote: > > Back to the question: why give the most difficult of all subjects to > the one of deluded temperament? Because it is the outstanding one > for cutting off thinking, and the deluded temperament conjectures > unskillfully about all manner of things. Does this then mean that it > is easy to develop? No, as the Visuddhimagga says it is the most > difficult. > Can the one of deluded temperament develop it then? Yes, if they > have the parami etc. No, if not. Remember that one can have enormous > skillful parami and still be one of the `not so good` in > temperament. This is because the temperament is to a large degree > decided by the the type of rebirth producing kamma in this life. > RobertK 26915 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Thu Nov 13, 2003 4:55am Subject: Vism.EngPali.XIV, 22, 23 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) Ch. XIV [Regarding the four patisambhida.] 22. Herein, "meaning" (attha) is briefly a term for the fruit of a cause (hetu). For in accordance with the cause it is served, (7) arrived at, reached, therefore it is called 'meaning' (or 'purpose'). But in particular the five things, namely, (i) anything conditionally produced, [441] (ii) nibbana, (iii) the meaning of what is spoken, (iv) (kamma-) result, and (v) functional (consciousness), should be understood as "meaning". When anyone reviews that meaning, any knowledge of his, falling within the category (pabheda) concerned with meaning, is the "discrimination of meaning". 22. tattha atthoti sa"nkhepato hetuphalasseta.m adhivacana.m. hetuphala.m hi yasmaa hetuanusaarena ariyati adhigamiyati sampaapu.niyati, tasmaa atthoti vuccati. pabhedato pana ya.m ki~nci paccayasambhuuta.m, nibbaana.m, bhaasitattho, vipaako, kiriyaati ime pa~nca dhammaa atthoti veditabbaa. ta.m attha.m paccavekkhantassa tasmi.m atthe pabhedagata.m ~naa.na.m atthapa.tisambhidaa. 23. "Law" (dhamma) is briefly a term for a condition (paccaya). For since a condition necessitates (dahati) whatever it may be, makes it occur or allows it to happen, it is therefore called 'law' (dhamma). But in particular the five things, namely,(i) any cause that produces fruit, (ii) the noble path, (iii) what is spoken, (iv) what is profitable, and (v) what is unprofitable, should be understood as "law". When anyone reviews that law, any knowledge of his, falling within the category concerned with the law, is the "discrimination of law". 23. dhammotipi sa"nkhepato paccayasseta.m adhivacana.m. paccayo hi yasmaa ta.m ta.m dahati pavatteti vaa sampaapu.nitu.m vaa deti, tasmaa dhammoti vuccati. pabhedato pana yo koci phalanibbattako hetu, ariyamaggo, bhaasita.m, kusala.m, akusalanti ime pa~nca dhammaa dhammoti veditabbaa. ta.m dhamma.m paccavekkhantassa tasmi.m dhamme pabhedagata.m~naa.na.m dhammapa.tisambhidaa. --------------- (7) "Ariiyati--'to honor, to serve'. Not in P.T.S. Dict. Cf. ger. ara.niiya (MA.i,21,173), also not in P.T.S. Dict. explained by Majjhima .Tikaa as 'to be honored. (payiruupasitabbaa). 26916 From: Sarah Date: Thu Nov 13, 2003 5:14am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Accumulations - for comment/Anapanasati Hi James, --- buddhatrue wrote: > > --- buddhatrue wrote: > > > S: > Many of the criticisms (if not all;-)) do > > > not stand > > > > up to careful scrutiny of the texts. > > > ... > I find this example moot. Could you please provide another? .... I think that some of the comments you are providing on the threads on anapanasati with Nina and Michael could qualify;-) I’m not going to buy into the threads for now, however, as you’e already in good company and I’m going to be busy for a couple of days. I would just encourage you or anyone else to consider carefully and patiently as these texts are not easy and contain a wealth of meaning. Hopefully, there won’t be any ‘conflicts’ in the texts by the end. Metta, Sarah ======= 26917 From: Michael Beisert Date: Thu Nov 13, 2003 5:41am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Buddhaghosa Hello Nina, Yes, as I mentioned there is a chapter in the book dedicated to Buddhaghosa. I bought this book to get a better understanding about the differences between Theravada and the other Buddhist schools. I was extremely pleased with his writings, it is not for beginners and the first time I read the book I really struggled, but now I highly recommend it. Metta Michael >From: nina van gorkom >Reply-To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com >To: >Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Buddhaghosa >Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2003 19:07:08 +0100 > >Dear Michael, >does Kalupahana give examples of Buddhaghosa where we can see that other >ideas were introduced? >Nina. >op 11-11-2003 22:52 schreef Michael Beisert op mbeisert@h...: > > > This is so because it is not impossible to > > trace some metaphysical speculations, such as those of the >Sarvastivadins, > > the Sautrantikas, and even the Yogacarins, in the works attributed to > > Buddhaghosa. What is most significant is that these ideas are introduced >in > > an extremely subtle manner, and that it took a few centuries for them to > > blossom into full-fledged, openly stated metaphysical positions. > 26918 From: buddhatrue Date: Thu Nov 13, 2003 5:57am Subject: Re: Accumulations - for comment/Anapanasati Hi Sarah, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > Hi James, > > --- buddhatrue wrote: > > > --- buddhatrue wrote: > > > > S: > Many of the criticisms (if not all;-)) do > > > > not stand > > > > > up to careful scrutiny of the texts. > > > > > ... > > I find this example moot. Could you please provide another? > .... > I think that some of the comments you are providing on the threads on > anapanasati with Nina and Michael could qualify;-) I'm not going to buy > into the threads for now, however, as you'e already in good company and > I'm going to be busy for a couple of days. James: "You always end with a jade's trick; I know you of old." --Beatrice, Much Ado About Nothing > I would just encourage you or anyone else to consider carefully and > patiently as these texts are not easy and contain a wealth of meaning. James: I would encourage you to do the same. > Hopefully, there won't be any `conflicts' in the texts by the end. James: Hoping doesn't always make it so. > > Metta, > > Sarah > ======= > Metta, James 26919 From: rjkjp1 Date: Thu Nov 13, 2003 6:25am Subject: [dsg] Re: Buddhaghosa(Suan) Dear Michael, Suan Lu Zwa, a member of this group, wrote an article about Kalupahana's book, I think. He might have some comments too. Robert In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Michael Beisert" wrote: > Hello Nina, > > Yes, as I mentioned there is a chapter in the book dedicated to Buddhaghosa. > I bought this book to get a better understanding about the differences > between Theravada and the other Buddhist schools. I was extremely pleased > with his writings, it is not for beginners and the first time I read the > book I really struggled, but now I highly recommend it. > > Metta > Michael > > > >From: nina van gorkom > >Reply-To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com > >To: > >Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Buddhaghosa > >Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2003 19:07:08 +0100 > > > >Dear Michael, > >does Kalupahana give examples of Buddhaghosa where we can see that other > >ideas were introduced? > >Nina. > >op 11-11-2003 22:52 schreef Michael Beisert op mbeisert@h...: > > > > > This is so because it is not impossible to > > > trace some metaphysical speculations, such as those of the > >Sarvastivadins, > > > the Sautrantikas, and even the Yogacarins, in the works attributed to > > > Buddhaghosa. What is most significant is that these ideas are introduced > >in > > > an extremely subtle manner, and that it took a few centuries for them to > > > blossom into full-fledged, openly stated metaphysical positions. > > 26920 From: Michael Beisert Date: Thu Nov 13, 2003 7:34am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Accumulations - for comment/Anapanasati Hello Sarah, Here is the link to the web site I maintain. As everyone will notice it has the same layout/organization as the Access to Insight web site. This was done in agreement with John Bullit. I did that because of my lack of expertise in web design, because I liked Johns' work very much, and to make it easier for people who were familiar with the site in english. http://www.acessoaoinsight.net Metta Michael >From: Sarah >Reply-To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com >To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com >Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Accumulations - for comment/Anapanasati >Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2003 06:07:21 +0000 (GMT) > >Hi Michael, (Icaro & any Newbies) > >I greatly appreciated your introduction. We have at least a couple of >other Brazilian members: - Leonardo who is a full-time lurker and Icaro >who you’ll ‘meet’ very soon;-) Icaro likes to study the Visuddhimagga in >German or check out Indonesian websites, when he needs a break from >Portuguese, English, Pali and I forget what else. You’ll get on well. > > --- Michael Beisert wrote: > Sarah, ><..> > > Currently I am retired and fully dedicated to the Dhamma. My > > interest > > in Buddhism started about 10 years ago and gradually has increased over > > the > > years. About 3 years ago I started a web site with sutta and essays > > translation to Portuguese. >..... >This is great to hear. Hopefully, we’ll hear plenty from you. Perhaps you >can give us a link to your website, so we can take a peek. There are bound >to be other members here who speak/understand Portuguese. >..... ><..> >I would love to live in a Theravada country to > > enjoy > > Buddhism from the inside but currently am bound to the place I live by > > my > > son who is still a freshman in high school. But after he gets to college > > I > > hope that wish will materialize. >.... >I think the main factor in ‘enjoying Buddhism from the inside’ has to do >with right understanding and the development of awareness rather than >living in a particular place. Now you have time and access to the >Teachings and obviously are making the best use of resources. Nonetheless, >hope you can travel and maybe meet us in Asia one day;-) >..... >M:> Going back to our conversation, I have to say that I am not that > > familiar > > with the writings of Buddhaghosa. It’s funny because the Visuddhimagga > > was > > one of the very first books I bought on Theravada Buddhism but never > > came > > around to really read and study. >..... >Let me see if we can help, especially given your interest in Pali as >well;-) > >First, let me explain to you and any other Newbies that at present, we’re >working through the last part (part 111) of the Visuddhimagga, transl by >~Naa.namoli, as a group text. This is the large section of the text, >starting at ch X1V and called Understanding (Pa~n~naa). It helps to have a >copy of the text, but in any case the installments posted so far can be >found, together with the Pali, in Files, almost at the bottom where it >says: z VismX1Vlinks.htm, posted by Jon. >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/ >It would be easy to print these out. > >Each installment on list (given by Larry) is discussed and often Nina >gives extra details and sub-commentary translations. The latter and some >of the more detailed notes can be found in U.P. under ‘Visuddhimagga’, >almost at the end: >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/Useful_Posts > >We’d be delighted if you or anyone else join in the threads anytime. >You’re also most welcome to pick up any of the previous installments for >further discussion. No questions or comments are too basic or too late. >.... >Before this difficult text, we went through Nina’s ‘Abhidhamma in Daily >Life’ and Soma’s translation of the Satipatthana Sutta commentary and >sub-commentary in the same way. If anyone wants help locating any of the >threads or discussions, pls ask. >..... >M:>I have only occasionally browsed > > through > > it. But one of the critics raised by DK in his book is the use by > > Buddhaghosa of essencialist perspectives which cannot be traced back to > > the > > original scriptures of the Canon. >..... >I think we’d need to look at specific references to discuss this any >further. I’m not saying it is so in this case (I have no idea at all), but >often we’ve found here that the most vehement critics of Buddhaghosa, the >commentaries or the Abhidhamma are people who have studied these texts >very little if at all. Many of the criticisms (if not all;-)) do not stand >up to careful scrutiny of the texts. > >One thing for sure, all the teachings revolve around the understanding of >presently arising ultimate realities (paramatha dhammas) or khandhas and >the knowledge that these are anatta. It just depends whether there are the >right conditions for there to be enough detachment and wisdom to >appreciate the reminders from any of these texts when we read and consider >them, as I see it. > >With metta, > >Sarah > >p.s Icaro: thx for thinking of us at busy bootcamp - metta and kisses from >all at DSG too;-) We’re counting the days til you and Dhammasangani >return. >===== 26921 From: robmoult Date: Thu Nov 13, 2003 7:59am Subject: Re: Accumulations, Conditions and Anatta - Interesting observation Hi Victor, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "yu_zhonghao" wrote: > Where did you get the idea that the concept of anatta did not allow > for a supervisory self making decisions? Note that I am not asking > whether the concept of anatta allowed for a supervisory self making > decisions or not. > > I don't see how the idea whether there is free will or not relates > to the Buddha's teaching. To me it is a philosophical issue. I am a little confused here. To me, a supervisory self making decisions is the antithesis of anatta. I might even go so far as to say that "no supervisory self making decisions" is a way of defining anatta. Victor, if you feel that this is wrong view, please help me to understand (please do not reply with another question). Metta, Rob M :-) 26922 From: robmoult Date: Thu Nov 13, 2003 8:01am Subject: Re: Karuna - not bearing others' suffering Hi Sarah, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > (I've lost the other thread) > > We were discussing the function of compassion as `not bearing others' > suffering' (Vism 1X,94). > > I suggested this was > > >a literal translation. (??maybe dhara - bearing, holding - > ***** > Soon after, I noticed that the same word I was thinking of came up in a > Vism thread on the primary rupas: > > "But without differentiation they are > elements (dhaatu) beacuse of bearing (dhaara.na) their own > characteristics, because of grasping (aadaana) suffering, and because of > sorting out (aadhaana) suffering (see Ch. XV, 19). (29) This is how they > should be given attention as to word meaning." > > Dhaara.na - bearing, holding, supporting. So compassion doesn't `bear, > hold or support' others suffering in the sense of wishing to remove it. > > Any comments welcome! (I'm just assuming it's the same word used). The Visuddhimagga and Atthasalini describe the function of karuna (compassion) as not bearing others' suffering. I find this to be a simple technical definition and so I am confused why you might have an issue with the term "bearing". Please help me to understand your concern. Metta, Rob M :-) 26923 From: robmoult Date: Thu Nov 13, 2003 8:03am Subject: Re: [dsg] Accumulations, Conditions Hi Shakti, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, shakti wrote: > You wrote: The string on my wrist is a condition to remind me of my recent > kusala kamma. Putting the ten bases of meritorius actions on a "to > do list" as part of daily planning is another way of creating more > conditons to support more kusala. > > Planning for kusala is itself wholesome. Performing kusala with all > one's heart is wholesome. Sharing the merits accrued is wholesome. > Remembering past kusala is wholesome. I am using "modern business > concepts" (to do list, daily planning, etc.) to support timeless > wisdom.that you want to share the merit > _________________________ > > Shakti: I was wondering how do you share the merits that you accrued?? > > Hope that you had a wonderful visit with Khun Sujin, Sukin, Betty and others. Let us know how it went. > With metta, Shakti There are a number of ways in which one can share merits. There is a wonderful ceremony in the Sri Lankan tradition. You request a monk to perform a transference of merit ceremony and tell the monk of the person to whom the merits should be dedicated (they have to be dead; one cannot transfer merit to a living person). If there are with your spouse / family, all people hold onto a cord, one end of which is held by the monk (this creates a metaphorical link between the parties). The monk will chant in Pali for five to fifteen minutes (at some point, they insert the name of the departed person) and then ask you to pour water from a small vase into a small cup in a larger bowl (the water will overflow the cup and spill into the bowl). While you are pouring, the monk continues to chant. During the entire ceremony, you are asked to concentrate your attention on the departed one to whom the merit is being transferred. When the ceremony is over, you use the water from the cup and bowl to water a plant. Sorry, I am not familiar with the details of the other traditions, but I am certain that they have corresponding ceremonies (perhaps others can describe similar ceremonies in other traditions). At the end of each of my Abhidhamma lessons, somebody from the class reads the following passage aloud, "Let us recall to our minds this morning, that we came to the temple with the sole purpose to study the Dhamma. With good faith (saddha) and wise attention (sati), we learn and understand some of the Lord Buddha's teaching. Whenever there is any doubt or wrong understanding of the teaching, we seek to clear our doubts and straighten our views. With proper understanding of the Dhamma, we can now put it into practice. The right understanding of the Dhamma will produce right thoughts that, in turn, give rise to right action, right speech and right livelihood. With such a right frame of mind, we can face the realities of life. May the merits (punna) that we gained through listening to the Dhamma, discussing the Dhamma and straightening our views, help us in overcoming any difficulties that we may face. May all beings inhabiting space and earth, Devas and Nagas of mighty powers, share these merits that we have acquired and may they long protect the Buddha Sasana. Let these merits accrue to our departed relatives and may they be happy. May all beings share these merits we have acquired, may it contribute greatly to their happiness. By the grace of the merits that we have acquired, may we never follow the foolish, but only the wise until we reach the final goal - Nibbana." After this is read aloud, the class recite in unison, "Saddhu, saddhu, saddhu" ("saddhu" means, "well said"). I am not sure of the source of these words, they were used in the class before I started teaching, so I kept up the tradition. A third way to transfer merits is to simply think of the departed person and think to yourself "may the merits that I have accrued be transferred to " or something similar. If a Pali phrase makes the occasion more solemn for you, you can repeat three times, "Idam me natinam hotu, sukhita hontu natayo" which means "Let this (merit) accrue to our relatives, and may they be happy!". From one perspective, the actual words used are not that critical because what matters is the internal volition rather than the external language. On the other hand, I like to use Pali for this ritual. I have a strong affinity to the Dhamma. Because of this strong attraction to the Dhamma, I am convinced that in a previous life, I must have studied the Dhamma. I have no idea of what my past nationality or mother tongue was when I studied the Dhamma in my past life, but I irrespective of that, I suspect that I chanted in Pali. When I chant in Pali in this life, this acts as a condition to evoke the feeling of reverence from past similar experiences. Anyway, that is my personal logic, feel free to chant in English, if that is what you feel comfortable with. I have given three different ways of transferring merit (ceremony, reciting a long passage, reciting a short passage). Pick the one that suits you and suits the situation. Metta, Rob M :-) 26924 From: robmoult Date: Thu Nov 13, 2003 8:05am Subject: Traffic Lights Hi All, As part of my job, I am constantly travelling across Asia. You might think that traffic lights are one of the common features in different countries, but it is not so... I was recently in Taipei, Taiwan. Beside the traffic light, they have a little green man that indicates when it is safe to walk – this is common in most countries. However, in Taipei, they have gone high-tech. The little green man is animated. You can see him walking. In fact, as the time for the green light comes close to expiring, the pace of the green man's walking increases. Just before the light turns red, the little green man is virtually running. What is the subconscious message that this image passes to an observer? Now let's consider New Delhi, India. Normally, the red light of the traffic light is large, round and red. In New Delhi, they have taken some black paint and coloured in part of the red light so that when the red light is on, it shines in large red letters, "RELAX". What a simple, low-tech yet valuable message! Normally, our society tells us, "Don't just sit there, do something!" The traffic light in Delhi is asking us "Don't do anything, just sit there!" Relax, be aware of the moment, what a great message to give! So the next time that you are stopped at a red light, seize the opportunity to RELAX and be aware of the moment. You don't have to be on a meditation cushion to practice Satipatthana. Metta, Rob M :-) 26925 From: Michael Beisert Date: Thu Nov 13, 2003 8:07am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Accumulations - for comment/Anapanasati James, >>When the Buddha said cosmos he meant just that: the cosmos (space, >>planets, and stars, etc.). He didn't mean a code word for nama-rupa. Why >>do you assume that? Here are some sources: Sabba Sutta (SN XXXV.23) "Monks, I will teach you the All. Listen & pay close attention. I will speak." "As you say, lord," the monks responded. The Blessed One said, "What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas. This, monks, is called the All. Anyone who would say, 'Repudiating this All, I will describe another,' if questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for his statement, would be unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put to grief. Why? Because it lies beyond range." Suñña Sutta (SN XXXV.85) Then Ven. Ananda went to the Blessed One and on arrival, having bowed down to him, sat to one side. As he was sitting there he said to the Blessed One, "It is said that the world is empty, the world is empty, lord. In what respect is it said that the world is void?" "Insofar as it is empty of a self or of anything pertaining to a self: Thus it is said, Ananda, that the world is empty. And what is empty of a self or of anything pertaining to a self? The eye is empty of a self or of anything pertaining to a self. Forms... Eye-consciousness... Eye-contact is empty of a self or of anything pertaining to a self. "The ear is empty... "The nose is empty... "The tongue is empty... "The body is empty... "The intellect is empty of a self or of anything pertaining to a self. Ideas... Intellect-consciousness... Intellect-contact is empty of a self or of anything pertaining to a self. Thus it is said that the world is empty." Metta Michael >From: "buddhatrue" >Reply-To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com >To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com >Subject: [dsg] Re: Accumulations - for comment/Anapanasati >Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2003 20:11:52 -0000 > >Hi Michael, > >--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Michael Beisert" > wrote: > > James, > > > > I will jump into this discussion if you don't mind. I can recall >Bhante > > Gunaratana mentioning that `the body within the body' is simply >referring to > > the breath. The breath is a body, the breath-body, which takes >place within > > another body. > >James: I would agree with that interpretation also. I don't think >that his interpretation and mine contradict each other. It can be >the body-body, breath-body, and cosmos-body. They are all included. > > > > > I don't fully agree with your reading of the Rohitassa Sutta. The >sutta > > mentions that the cosmos is within the body but also perception & >intelect > > which is an indication of nama-rupa, and that would make more >sense, i.e. > > the world or cosmos, within the context of the teachings, is nama- >rupa. > >James: First of all, nama-rupa isn't part of the Buddha's teachings. >If you will get that idea out of your head right from the start, you >will understand where I am coming from. When the Buddha said cosmos >he meant just that: the cosmos (space, planets, and stars, etc.). He >didn't mean a code word for nama-rupa. Why do you assume that. You >know, reading the commentaries, one would think that the Buddha never >really meant what he said, there was always some hidden meaning to >what he said. He said that within this fathom-long body is >intellect, of course, but there is also the cosmos. How is the >entire cosmos within your body? Meditate and you will get a >glimpse. Become enlightened and you will know first hand. > > > > Metta > > Michael > > > > Metta, James 26926 From: Michael Beisert Date: Thu Nov 13, 2003 8:09am Subject: Re: [dsg] What is Self-power? Hello Thomas, How can something which is pure be defiled? If it is pure, it cannot be defiled at the same time. Where in the Canon does it say that the mind is pure? Metta Michael >From: nordwest >Reply-To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com >To: sangha >Subject: [dsg] What is Self-power? >Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2003 23:30:51 -0800 (PST) > >The term "Self-power" would mean, that there is a "Self" that has power. >But - I suppose, we all agree - that there is no Self, the term "Self" is >totally empty, or in other words, an illusion. So then, what is it that has >power, if there is no Self? The answer is, the Mind has power. > >OK, so let us see... what is the mind? Original it is a Pure Mind, the mind >of the Buddha you may say, the enlightened mind. But our mind is defiled, >it is not pure. Where does the mind get it's knowledge from? Don't answer >with 'the brain, the eyes, the ears, the senses..." because this is not >correct. If it were correct, than all the buddhas would be blind, deaf, and >senseless beings.. I don't think they are such handicapped. We rely on the >eyes and ears, because we are too stupid to understand that we are not this >body at all, we are merely "imprisoned" by our limited senses. > >The Pure Mind has knowledge about everything, it is the enlightened mind >that is beyond time and space, it travels the universe and there is nothing >it doesn't understand or know, it is our original mind. > >How come the mind of the Buddha, the Pure Mind, can grasp the entire >universe, all that is? The answer is: because it is One with everything >that is. There are no two things such as universe-here and universe-there. >There is no space and time for the buddha. > >So, we see things with this very mind.. only that our mind is defiled. But >it is still one with everything... we just have no clear view to the >universal wisdom. In other words, our Self-power is in reality the power of >all that is, the power of the One. There is no difference, no dualism. No >mind is seperated from anything. > >What is the Buddha? He is one with the universe too. - The buddha is One >with the universe, and your mind is One with universe. So the Other-power >is Self-power anyway, if you want it or not. ;) You use this Other-power a >billion times a day without being aware of it. > >So when we recite the Nembutsu, the buddha-name, or visualize the Buddha, >or contemplate the buddha, then we have Pure Thoughts. The Pure Thought >cleans the defiled mind and when this Pure Thought becomes a samadhi, a >constant thought, than the mind is constantly pure. Than you are >enlightened. > >So the "Other power" is in reality totally "Self-power". The Buddha wis >never seperated from us, or from our mind... only WE think that we are >seperated beings... well, this is why we are in samsara, isn't it? > >NAMU AMIDA BUTSU! Yours in the Dharma, >Thomas 26927 From: Kenneth Ong Date: Thu Nov 13, 2003 8:16am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Accumulations - for comment/Anapanasati Hi James and others I think there some points need to be cleared before proceeding in the further discussion of this issue. One qn - is mindfulness of breath is = to breathing meditation. How do we define meditation - one-pointed concentration or insight investigation. Are we looking at Sati sutta as a whole or just the front part - a piecemeal investigation on just the breath. On my personal experience, mediation is good for calming of mind but is such calming of mind could lead to attachment to so called "calm". The question is, is there a danger that we might not known or aware that we will be attached to calm? Whether such mindfulness of the breath is for the Ariya disciples and your dispute which I say is premature to conclude that Buddhaghosa is wrong. I personnally do not believe in one-pointed concentration meditation, I prefer investigation meditation bc it put the chances of attachment to calm lesser. If my memory does not fail me, Buddha does not talk about one-pointed concentratoin meditation as a unique subject in all mindfullness suttas, it usually emcompasses more important elements like movement, compostion of the body etc. To me, it is impt to note this difference because it shows that one-pointed meditation of mindfullness is not what he has in mind for us, it could be just a perlude to investigation or to insight. As to another question I think by Victor why this mindfullness of breathing is for the Moha-citta person, is just a simple explanation, a Moha-citta person "forgets" or is not constantly aware the danger of moha lurking in the shadows. That is also why neutral feeling is so easy to forget bc the caused is moha wheras the arising of pleasant and unpleasant is easily being reminded. Just like an earlier qn why a person does not know the mistake is punished more bc he does not know the mistake at all and this meant the capacity to change and to prevent the mistake from happening again is very unlikely. Whereas a person who make a mistake knowing is punish less bc the person has the capacity to change for the better. These are just my personal thoughts. Kind regards Ken O 26928 From: Kenneth Ong Date: Thu Nov 13, 2003 8:19am Subject: Re: [dsg] Accumulations, Conditions Hi RobM Just a thought as I do not know the traditional practise but are these three ways endorse in the ancient texts Kind rgds Ken O 26929 From: robmoult Date: Thu Nov 13, 2003 8:32am Subject: Re: [dsg] Accumulations, Conditions Hi Ken ), --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Kenneth Ong wrote: > Just a thought as I do not know the traditional practise but are > these three ways endorse in the ancient texts Absolutely not. As I remember (can't find the Sutta at the moment), the Buddha encouraged sharing of merits with departed ones, but there was no formula handed down. Frankly, it is what is inside (volition) that counts, not what is outside (rites and rituals). If you have different words or a different practice, I would say that they are equally valid - in fact, if they are special to you, I would say that they are even better than the three that I listed because words or a practice that is special to you will invoke a stronger volition. Metta, Rob M :-) 26930 From: buddhatrue Date: Thu Nov 13, 2003 10:20am Subject: Re: Accumulations - for comment/Anapanasati --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Michael Beisert" wrote: > James, > > >>When the Buddha said cosmos he meant just that: the cosmos (space, > >>planets, and stars, etc.). He didn't mean a code word for nama- rupa. Why > >>do you assume that? > > Here are some sources: > > Sabba Sutta (SN XXXV.23) Hi Michael, These are beautiful sutta quotes but you didn't provide any analysis linking them to a position. To me these quotes are describing the five aggregates, which are the All, and the Cosmos…and can be known through this fathom-long body. But these quotes are not describing nama-rupa. Nama-Rupa as a theory detailed in the Abhidhamma is quite different than this. According to the Abhidhamma, nama and rupa can exist separate from each other-nama can have its own agenda independent of rupa, and rupa can have qualities not dependent on nama. That isn't what the Buddha taught. As these suttas state, they are always pared together. Please explain further so that I can know how you see these suttas in relation to the theory of nama- rupa. Metta, James 26931 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Nov 13, 2003 10:32am Subject: anapanasatisutta, part I a We read in the Anapanasati sutta (MN no. 118): (Introductory Section) 1] Thus have I heard. On one occasion the Blessed One was living at Savatthi in the Eastern Park, in the Palace of Migara's Mother, together with many very well-known elder disciples -- the Venerable Sariputta, the Venerable Maha-Moggallana, the Venerable Maha Kassapa, the Venerable Maha Kaccana, the Venerable Maha Kotthita, the Venerable Maha Kappina, the Venerable Cunda, the Venerable Anuruddha, the Venerable Revata, the Venerable Ananda, and other very well known elder disciples. 2] Now on that occasion elder Bhikkhus had been teaching and instructing new Bhikkhus; some elder Bhikkhus had been teaching and instructing ten new Bhikkhus, some elder Bhikkhus had been teaching and instructing twenty. . . thirty. . . forty new Bhikkhus. And the new Bhikkhus, taught and instructed by the elder Bhikkhus, had achieved successive stages of high distinction. 3] On that occasion -- the Uposatha day of the fifteenth, on the full-moon night of the Pavarana ceremony,[9] The Blessed One was seated in the open surrounded by the Sangha of Bhikkhus. Then, surveying the silent Sangha of Bhikkhus, he addressed them thus: 4] "Bhikkhus, I am content with this progress. My mind is content with this progress. So arouse still more energy to attain the unattained, to achieve the unachieved, to realize the unrealized. I shall wait here at Savatthi for the Komudi full moon of the fourth month." ******* Mindfulness of Breathing has been translated by Ven. Nanamoli, with extracts from the Co. to this sutta and the Path of Discrimination. He has helpful notes, but he gives only abridged translations of the Co. Invitation, pavaara.naa: After the rainy season, each monk invites the Sangha to point out his faults during the preceding period. (N: How this induces humbleness of mind and respect the monks should have for each other!) N: As we read in the Intro, the sutta was spoken near Savatthi in the Eastern Monastery. The great disciples were present. There were arahats, non-returners, once-returners, sotapannas. Moreover those who were developing the four satipatthanas, and the factors leading to enlightenment, who were developing metta and other meditation subjects and also mindfulness on breathing. The Invitation ceremony was put off for one month until the Komudi festival, so that the monks could more fully develop excellent qualities. The Co. explains why the Buddha wanted to wait for the Komudi festival in Savatthi, to have the Invitation ceremony, the pavarana. He waited because otherwise the bhikkhus would go away and travel all over Savatthi. The Buddha showed his great compassion because he thought of the bhikkhus who were still weak in samatha and vipassana and who would not be able to have excellent attainments. He considered the difficulty of finding lodgings if the monks would go traveling. The elders (of sixty rainy seasons) were allowed to take lodgings first and in that case other monks would have trouble finding them. Since the Buddha wanted to stay near Savatthi, there would not be such worry and the monks could further develop samatha and vipassana and reach distinctions. N: In the Sutta we read that the Buddha said: Note of Ven. Nanamoli: this refers to arahatship. 26932 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Nov 13, 2003 10:32am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Anapanasati Hi James, op 12-11-2003 21:30 schreef buddhatrue op buddhatrue@y...: >>> Yet it is just within this fathom-long body, with its perception & >>> intellect, that I declare that there is the cosmos, the > origination >>> of the cosmos, the cessation of the cosmos, and the path of > practice >>> leading to the cessation of the cosmos." >>> http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an04-045.html >>> >>> This is what I believe the Buddha meant by `knowing the body in > the >>> body.' Within this finite bag of skin and bones body that we all >>> occupy there is a fathom long body, an infinite body. That is > what >>> we should know. > > James: Nina, the words "fathom" and "cosmos" are both variations of > infinity. If you can't see what is plainly obvious in this sutta, I > am not going to be able to show you over the Internet. This is a > matter we would have to discuss face to face. N: Yes, good, good, do come to Thailand end January!! We can all be together. ATI translates the Pali loko as cosmos. But loko is world. A question of translation. Fathomlong, Pali has: ka.lebara: the body. No word about fathom, as far as I can see. Now, this is also used for a carcass! Here we have your transl of bag of skin and bones. Spot on! But I still think of the world as the five aggregates. That is the world that has to be known. Remember the sutta I quoted: the world, the world, it crumbles away. What is the world: physical phenomena and mental phenomena, five aggregates. Many suttas, especially in the Kindred Sayings IV, confirm this. Another quote, but this is Abhidhamma (Do not read, close your eyes, this is for Larry and others): Book of Analysis, Ch 2: the eye-base: this is a world... the ear-base: this is a world, etc. Actually, this is the same as the sutta about the world. The Co to the Rohitassa sutta speaks of the world of conditioned realities (sankhara loka). Infinite: what does it mean? It makes me think of jhana: infinite consciousnes, a subject of arupa jhana. A person may, because of meditation experiences, even in former lives, really experience the body as infinite, go outside his body, have extraordinary experiences. I do not deny this. But he should know this for what it is: conditioned phenomena, accumulations, accumulations, James! One should not attach too much importance to it or take it for my experience. These experiences do not last, are non-self. This was not the meaning of body in the Rohitassa sutta. Another cross reference to the "Net of Views", Brahmajalasutta, transl by B.B.: We read about many different views. p. 73, about the Finitude and Infinitude of the World: about the extensionists. Second View: We then read: All these views in the Brahmajalasutta were *not* the Buddha's teaching. And we also read: I think of the five aggregates here and now. They fall away, and that is what has to be known. >> J: My question is very simple: According to the >>> commentaries, is mindfulness of breathing appropriate for most > people >>> or only a select few? .... N: In this sutta the Buddha speaks to very talented monks who had great accumulations for samatha to the degree of jhana and could use jhana as a base for insight. For this, we have to go back to the beginning of the sutta. I will post it in smaller parts, this part I posted was too long. There is much material here for reflection and the sutta is not easy. I still did not answer you directly. Why? I do not want to make statements just now. I would like people to study carefully the sutta and commentary, and not only the beginning of the sutta, but until the end, about the factors of enlightenment. I would like people to draw conclusions themselves. > James: You say a lot here without answering the question. Did the > Buddha expound on extraneous matters when he was asked a question and > then tell the questioner to be 'patient'? No, he answered whatever > question presented to him simply and directly...so much so that his > answers were celebrated. Please give me a direct answer, so that I > may celebrate. N: I do not expect you to celebrate anything I write ;-)). The Buddha also said that the Dhamma is subtle, deep, difficult to understand. We cannot expect to understand immediately all the subtle points contained in a sutta. >> J: First the Visuddhimagga explains the sutta section, "Breathing > in >>> long, he knows ³I breathe in long²; or breathing out long, he > knows >>> ³I breathe out long²," as "Next he defines the in-breaths and out- >>> breaths and the body as materiality, and the consciousness and the >>> states associated with the consciousness as the > immaterial...Having >>> defined nama-rupa in this way, he seeks its condition.." But then >>> later it is stated in the Visuddhimagga, to explain the recurrent >>> term "Body within the Body", as "Why is the word body used twice > in >>> the phrase: Contemplating the body in the body? For determining > the >>> object and isolating it, and for sifting out thoroughly of the >>> apparent compact nature of things like continuity (santati). >> Because there is no contemplation of feeling, citta or dhammas in > the >>> body, but just the contemplating of the body only..." >> >> N: He contemplates bodily phenomena, and not at the same time mental >> phenomena. He learns that what he takes for "My important body" are > only >> fleeting material phenomena. > > James: My point is that you cannont contemplate bodily phenomena > without also contemplating mental phenomena. They go hand in hand > and are codependent. N: Right. When one says, I will just apply myself to the first satipatthana, mindfulness of body, it means he has to be aware of mental phenomena as well. The person who emerges from jhana attained by Mindfulness of Breathing, has to be aware of both mental and physical phenomena. But only one object appears at a time, not two. The difference between mental phenomena and physical phenomena has to be clearly known, as distinct from each other. Otherwise their arising and falling away one at a time, their impermanence, cannot be realized. In this first tetrad, group of four, breath as a body is stressed. It is tangible object. But being aware of it should not exclude mind, as you say above. In the next tetrad feeling is stressed as you will see. In the next one consciousness, in the last one dhammas. This is paralel with the four satipatthanas. Here is the sketch of the whole sutta we should keep in mind when following the long commentary. Thus again, in the four satipatthanas of body, feeling, consciousness and dhamma, there should be awareness all the time of bodily phenomena and mental phenomena. They are grouped as four subjects to help the listener. One section may appeal more to this person, another section to that person. The Buddha had many diverse ways to explain realities. Nina. 26933 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Nov 13, 2003 10:32am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vis. XIV 38, 39, 40, 41 Hi Larry, op 13-11-2003 04:23 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > "The ear's characteristic is sensitivity of primary elements that is > ready for the impact of sounds;..." > I think "primary elements" here refers to the sensitive matter of the > sense organs. We could say the 4 element group repeatedly arises in a > certain continuum that is _ready_ for the impact of sound etc. N: Earsense is a derived rupa but it has as foundation the four primary rupas. The Tiika repeats that it is derived matter. The four great elements are the proximate cause. L: This > means the ear doesn't cease to exist when we see. N: Kamma keeps on producing earsense. Never stops. It arises and falls away. It is ready for impact: it is fit, apt (araha). It is a rupa that is capable to receive sound, so that sound can be heard. It shows us that there are many conditions for hearing. L: I'm not sure if the "impact" of sound with > sensitive matter is the same as "contact" (phassa). N: Contact is mental, a cetasika arising with each citta. Impact, or impingement is also designated by the word reacting. Here, this refers to rupas. It helps me to consult the Dhammasangani and also the footnotes. As to the Tika, 37 is very long, still many paras before I am at the point where it is rendered in the footnote about kamma you quoted. 37 is almost three pages, I have to make choices, but get stuck with unlisted words. I have no access to a Pali Pali dictionary. But I just discovered unlisted words in the Dispeller of Delusion, co to the Book of Analysis. And also: Ch XV, Bases and Elements. I enjoy it more to go slowly. It means only that I get more and more behind. Nina. 26934 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Thu Nov 13, 2003 10:32am Subject: Re: Accumulations, Conditions and Anatta - Interesting observation Hi Rob, So you didn't indicate where you get the idea that the concept of anatta did not allow for a supervisory self making decisions. Let's go back to what the Buddha taught regarding the conditioned: Feeling is not self. Feeling is to be seen as it actually is with right discernment thus: "This is not mine. This I am not. This is not my self." Likewise, form is not self. Form is to be seen as it actually is with right discernment thus: "This is not mine. This I am not. This is not my self." Likewise for perception, mental fabrications, and consciousness. I have indicated to you what the Buddha taught regarding the conditioned. The idea that the concept of anatta did not allow for a supervisory self making decisions is like a clutter. And as long as you hold on to that idea, it will block you in clearly understanding what the Buddha taught as it is. Only you can clear out the clutter and abandon for yourself the idea that the concept of anatta did not allow for a supervisory self making decisions. And it can be hard for one to do so. Sometime one has attachment to things and throwing them away can be a very uncomfortable thing to do. Peace, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" wrote: > Hi Victor, 26935 From: buddhatrue Date: Thu Nov 13, 2003 11:05am Subject: [dsg] Re: Accumulations - for comment/Anapanasati --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Kenneth Ong wrote: > Hi James and others > > I think there some points need to be cleared before proceeding in the > further discussion of this issue. Hi Ken O and All, Thanks for the post. I don't think I necessarily disagree with anything you have to say about meditation. There can be an attachment to calm, such as in Jhana development, that every practitioner will have to face and overcome. If you want to side- step this issue by practicing Vipassana meditation I don't disagree. From my understanding they can both lead to nibbana. The only difference is that Jhana development creates stronger concentration which can then be applied to insight investigation more effectively. It is a trade-off. Do whichever works best for you. As far as Buddhaghosa and the appropriateness of Anapanasati for different individuals, the jury is still out. I haven't said that Buddhaghosa is wrong because I still haven't been told what Buddhaghosa wrote. I don't have a copy of all the commentaries and that I why I have asked Nina…or anyone…to provide a specific quote. Nina has chosen instead to give me a section by section analysis with commentary of the entire Anapanasati sutta; which is nice I suppose but doesn't answer the question. It threatens to drown the issue (which in Congress they call 'filibustering'). Do I feel that I am unqualified to make judgments of Buddhaghosa (or the commentaries, or the Abhidhamma) because I don't have personl copies of them and haven't studied them from end to end? No. Does a person need to drink the whole ocean to know that it tastes salty? Metta, James 26936 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Thu Nov 13, 2003 0:16pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Accumulations - for comment/Anapanasati Hi Ken, Speaking from my own experience and understanding, in the meditative practice of mindfulness of breathing, both mindfulness and concentration, both insight and tranquillity are to be developed. Regarding your concern about attachment to calm, I have not come across in the discourses in which the Buddha addressed that problem, if there is such problem at all. In fact, the Buddha said the following in the discourse: "Now, there is the case where a monk -- quite withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful mental qualities -- enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. With the stilling of directed thought & evaluation, he enters & remains in the second jhana: rapture & pleasure born of concentration, unification of awareness free from directed thought & evaluation -- internal assurance. With the fading of rapture, he remains in equanimity, mindful & fully aware, and physically sensitive of pleasure. He enters & remains in the third jhana, of which the Noble Ones declare, 'Equanimous & mindful, he has a pleasurable abiding.' With the abandoning of pleasure & pain -- as with the earlier disappearance of elation & distress -- he enters & remains in the fourth jhana: purity of equanimity & mindfulness, neither pleasure nor pain. This is called renunciation-pleasure, seclusion-pleasure, calm-pleasure, self-awakening-pleasure. And of this pleasure I say that it is to be cultivated, to be developed, to be pursued, that it is not to be feared. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/majjhima/mn066.html Please also read the paragragh preceding to the paragraph above in the discourse. The Buddha clearly stated 1. what is to be cultivated, to be developed, to be pursued, what is not to be feared, and 2. what is not to be cultivated, not to be developed, not to be pursued, what is to be feared. Peace, Victor PS. I did not asked the question "why is the mindfulness of breathing for the Moha-citta person?" I suggest quoting what others actually said in the message in order to avoid putting words in others' mouth, intentionally or unintentionally. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Kenneth Ong wrote: > Hi James and others [snip] 26937 From: Michael Beisert Date: Thu Nov 13, 2003 0:25pm Subject: Re: [dsg] anapanasatisutta, part I a Nina, Quick question. You know the name in Pali for this category? "The elders (of sixty rainy seasons)" I only know thera & mahathera. Metta Michael >From: nina van gorkom >Reply-To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com >To: >Subject: [dsg] anapanasatisutta, part I a >Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2003 19:32:17 +0100 > >We read in the Anapanasati sutta (MN no. 118): > >(Introductory Section) > > 1] Thus have I heard. On one occasion the Blessed One was living at >Savatthi in the Eastern > Park, in the Palace of Migara's Mother, together with many very >well-known >elder disciples -- > the Venerable Sariputta, the Venerable Maha-Moggallana, the >Venerable >Maha >Kassapa, the > Venerable Maha Kaccana, the Venerable Maha Kotthita, the Venerable >Maha >Kappina, the > Venerable Cunda, the Venerable Anuruddha, the Venerable Revata, the >Venerable Ananda, and > other very well known elder disciples. > > 2] Now on that occasion elder Bhikkhus had been teaching and >instructing >new Bhikkhus; some > elder Bhikkhus had been teaching and instructing ten new Bhikkhus, >some >elder Bhikkhus had > been teaching and instructing twenty. . . thirty. . . forty new >Bhikkhus. >And the new Bhikkhus, > taught and instructed by the elder Bhikkhus, had achieved >successive >stages >of high distinction. > > 3] On that occasion -- the Uposatha day of the fifteenth, on the >full-moon >night of the Pavarana > ceremony,[9] The Blessed One was seated in the open surrounded by >the >Sangha of Bhikkhus. > Then, surveying the silent Sangha of Bhikkhus, he addressed them >thus: > > 4] "Bhikkhus, I am content with this progress. My mind is content >with this >progress. So arouse > still more energy to attain the unattained, to achieve the >unachieved, to >realize the unrealized. I > shall wait here at Savatthi for the Komudi full moon of the fourth >month." > >******* >Mindfulness of Breathing has been translated by Ven. Nanamoli, with >extracts >from the Co. to this sutta and the Path of Discrimination. He has helpful >notes, but he gives only abridged translations of the Co. >Invitation, pavaara.naa: After the rainy season, each monk invites the >Sangha to point out his faults during the preceding period. (N: How this >induces humbleness of mind and respect the monks should have for each >other!) >N: As we read in the Intro, the sutta was spoken near Savatthi in the >Eastern Monastery. The great disciples were present. There were arahats, >non-returners, once-returners, sotapannas. Moreover those who were >developing the four satipatthanas, and the factors leading to >enlightenment, >who were developing metta and other meditation subjects and also >mindfulness >on breathing. >The Invitation ceremony was put off for one month until the Komudi >festival, >so that the monks could more fully develop excellent qualities. > >The Co. explains why the Buddha wanted to wait for the Komudi festival in >Savatthi, to have the Invitation ceremony, the pavarana. He waited because >otherwise the bhikkhus would go away and travel all over Savatthi. The >Buddha showed his great compassion because he thought of the bhikkhus who >were still weak in samatha and vipassana and who would not be able to have >excellent attainments. He considered the difficulty of finding lodgings if >the monks would go traveling. The elders (of sixty rainy seasons) were >allowed to take lodgings first and in that case other monks would have >trouble finding them. Since the Buddha wanted to stay near Savatthi, there >would not be such worry and the monks could further develop samatha and >vipassana and reach distinctions. >N: In the Sutta we read that the Buddha said: > still more energy to attain the unattained, to achieve the >unachieved, to >realize the unrealized. I > shall wait here at Sivatthi for the Komudi full moon of the fourth >month.> >Note of Ven. Nanamoli: this refers to arahatship. > 26938 From: Michael Beisert Date: Thu Nov 13, 2003 0:32pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Accumulations - for comment/Anapanasati James, I am not familiar with what you are quoting from the Abhidhamma, that nama and rupa can exist separate from each other. It only rings a bell in relation to immaterial planes of existence where there is no rupa, only nama. Is that what you mean? Apart from that the existence of nama and rupa with separate agendas would in my view contradict what is in the suttas. Metta Michael >From: "buddhatrue" >Reply-To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com >To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com >Subject: [dsg] Re: Accumulations - for comment/Anapanasati >Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2003 18:20:09 -0000 > >--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Michael Beisert" > wrote: > > James, > > > > >>When the Buddha said cosmos he meant just that: the cosmos >(space, > > >>planets, and stars, etc.). He didn't mean a code word for nama- >rupa. Why > > >>do you assume that? > > > > Here are some sources: > > > > Sabba Sutta (SN XXXV.23) > > >Hi Michael, > >These are beautiful sutta quotes but you didn't provide any analysis >linking them to a position. To me these quotes are describing the >five aggregates, which are the All, and the Cosmos…and can be known >through this fathom-long body. But these quotes are not describing >nama-rupa. Nama-Rupa as a theory detailed in the Abhidhamma is quite >different than this. According to the Abhidhamma, nama and rupa can >exist separate from each other-nama can have its own agenda >independent of rupa, and rupa can have qualities not dependent on >nama. That isn't what the Buddha taught. As these suttas state, >they are always pared together. Please explain further so that I can >know how you see these suttas in relation to the theory of nama- >rupa. > >Metta, James 26939 From: nordwest Date: Thu Nov 13, 2003 11:04am Subject: Re: [dsg] Michael / What is Self-power? Dear Michael, we are all buddhas, but our mind has many so-called "imprints" of habits accumulated in samsara and of faulty deeds and misconceptions. The best way to imagine the Mind is to understand it as a mirror. It reflects the world in the same way as its defilements are, for example: you may know a person who is always in a hurry, always under stress. This is because of a mind-habit. If such a restless person sits on a park bank next to a buddhist master, we will see this picture: One restless world, one still world. Two worlds, but one reality. If the restless person starts talking with the master, and the master is able to calm down the person, makes him think about his way of life, the person could work out the pattern of mind that created this bad habit. Like this, the mirror will be cleaner on this very habit mainly, not in general of course. So if the person manages to be less restless, all of a sudden his world we be no more a restless one. - You see, we create our own worlds of illusion, totally. Forget the Canon for a day, and be still, look inside! You always had the Pure Mind, polish the mirror and regain it. Gassho, Thomas Michael Beisert wrote:Hello Thomas, How can something which is pure be defiled? If it is pure, it cannot be defiled at the same time. Where in the Canon does it say that the mind is pure? 26940 From: connie Date: Thu Nov 13, 2003 0:26pm Subject: Re: Myanmar4 - decisive support, accumulations, desirable object, kamma Hi, Sarah, Rob and Lurkers, Have to laugh about being out of my depth as an excuse to keep my mouth shut. Sputter, choke, cough. At least here, someone's likely to come along and offer to try pulling us out. I was having trouble understanding how a rupa could be inherently desirable. It is lobha, not the rupa, that shouts DESIRABLE. I was thinking that 'desirable rupa' meant there was, (sputter), somehow something about the rupa itself that should make me recognize it as being a good thing. But the characteristics of whichever rupa we talk about stay the same, neutral, now one and now another being experienced. When a bunch of realities are all lumped together and called a slap upside the head and we say I'm perverse if I like that (unless the majority of the normal folk agree with me), it isn't really saying anything about the characteristics of rupa... just about what the normal lobha consensus is... and I expect that will be more and more perverse as time goes on... as well as being experienced by less and less kusala kamma. When Rob was talking about only a bodily-comfort temperature range being desirable, I thought maybe the desirability of rupas depended on the degree it was working to support life. I wondered what was undesirable about the heat needed to cook rice... not that I want to experience that heat directly. And I really don't know anything about fire-walkers, either, but it seems that the heat there is a desirable support for faith. The same way, although it's not a rupa, fear of hell can be an inducement for kusala... but would it be a cogent one? I agree, Sarah, that "pakatupanissaya is much wider than aahaara". I think my point/question in saying I thought "pakatupannisaya has to be aaharaa as well" was just that something can work in more than one way... like you said about phassa being "both a decisive support for citta to experience its object at each moment and also a mental nutriment for this contact. It must also act as a condition in many other ways too, such as by conascent condition for other cetasikas and the citta, etc, etc." dog paddling, connie 26941 From: robmoult Date: Thu Nov 13, 2003 4:38pm Subject: Re: Myanmar4 - decisive support, accumulations, desirable object, kamma Hi Connie, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "connie" wrote: > I was having trouble understanding how a rupa could be inherently > desirable. It is lobha, not the rupa, that shouts DESIRABLE. I was > thinking that 'desirable rupa' meant there was, (sputter), somehow > something about the rupa itself that should make me recognize it as > being a good thing. But the characteristics of whichever rupa we talk > about stay the same, neutral, now one and now another being experienced. > When a bunch of realities are all lumped together and called a slap > upside the head and we say I'm perverse if I like that (unless the > majority of the normal folk agree with me), it isn't really saying > anything about the characteristics of rupa... just about what the normal > lobha consensus is... and I expect that will be more and more perverse > as time goes on... as well as being experienced by less and less kusala > kamma. > > When Rob was talking about only a bodily-comfort temperature range being > desirable, I thought maybe the desirability of rupas depended on the > degree it was working to support life. I wondered what was undesirable > about the heat needed to cook rice... not that I want to experience that > heat directly. And I really don't know anything about fire- walkers, > either, but it seems that the heat there is a desirable support for > faith. The same way, although it's not a rupa, fear of hell can be an > inducement for kusala... but would it be a cogent one? Let's see if I can help. A citta process occurs so quickly that it is easy to merge all the functions into one. Here is a slightly simplified view of the order of events in a citta process: 1. A rupa arises (at this point, it is not the object of a citta) 2. The rupa becomes the object of vipaka cittas (vipaka cittas are the result of past kamma); at this point the functions of "seeing", "hearing", etc. take place 3. There is a reaction to the object (these are the javana cittas, the ones that create kamma); at this point there is lobha, dosa, moha, etc. A rupa gets it's characterisitic at stage 1, when it arises. At this point, the rupa is anittha (undesireable), ittha (moderately desireable) or ati-ittha (extremely desireable). Based on this inherent characteristic, the rupa is handled slightly differently at stage 2 of the process (i.e. "seeing" is done with an akusala vipaka citta or "seeing" is done with a kusala vipaka citta). I believe this to be a relatively minor technical issue. At stage 3 of the process, we react to the object and create new kamma. If the object is anittha and we react with lobha, this is "perversion of perception" (in less technical terms, "you are a wierdo" - masochists fall into this category). Many people have a strong sense of self; they are attached to the idea that THEY decide the nature of an object. For people such as this, contemplating on this issue of inherent characterisitics of rupa may have some value in appreciating anatta. Hope that this helps! Metta, Rob M :-) PS: Your swimming metaphor is cute :-) 26942 From: shakti Date: Thu Nov 13, 2003 4:54pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Accumulations, Conditions Hi Rob, Thanks for telling me about the different ways that someone can share merit. Are there teachings somewhere that support this practice? If you know of any references please forward them as I'd like to investigate more. I wonder how we can really share merit with someone who is dead? If anatta is a reality than who or what would we be sharing with??? Thanks, Shakti robmoult wrote: Hi Shakti, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, shakti wrote: > You wrote: The string on my wrist is a condition to remind me of my recent > kusala kamma. Putting the ten bases of meritorius actions on a "to > do list" as part of daily planning is another way of creating more > conditons to support more kusala. > > Planning for kusala is itself wholesome. Performing kusala with all > one's heart is wholesome. Sharing the merits accrued is wholesome. > Remembering past kusala is wholesome. I am using "modern business > concepts" (to do list, daily planning, etc.) to support timeless > wisdom.that you want to share the merit > _________________________ > > Shakti: I was wondering how do you share the merits that you accrued?? > > Hope that you had a wonderful visit with Khun Sujin, Sukin, Betty and others. Let us know how it went. > With metta, Shakti There are a number of ways in which one can share merits. There is a wonderful ceremony in the Sri Lankan tradition. You request a monk to perform a transference of merit ceremony and tell the monk of the person to whom the merits should be dedicated (they have to be dead; one cannot transfer merit to a living person). If there are with your spouse / family, all people hold onto a cord, one end of which is held by the monk (this creates a metaphorical link between the parties). The monk will chant in Pali for five to fifteen minutes (at some point, they insert the name of the departed person) and then ask you to pour water from a small vase into a small cup in a larger bowl (the water will overflow the cup and spill into the bowl). While you are pouring, the monk continues to chant. During the entire ceremony, you are asked to concentrate your attention on the departed one to whom the merit is being transferred. When the ceremony is over, you use the water from the cup and bowl to water a plant. Sorry, I am not familiar with the details of the other traditions, but I am certain that they have corresponding ceremonies (perhaps others can describe similar ceremonies in other traditions). At the end of each of my Abhidhamma lessons, somebody from the class reads the following passage aloud, "Let us recall to our minds this morning, that we came to the temple with the sole purpose to study the Dhamma. With good faith (saddha) and wise attention (sati), we learn and understand some of the Lord Buddha's teaching. Whenever there is any doubt or wrong understanding of the teaching, we seek to clear our doubts and straighten our views. With proper understanding of the Dhamma, we can now put it into practice. The right understanding of the Dhamma will produce right thoughts that, in turn, give rise to right action, right speech and right livelihood. With such a right frame of mind, we can face the realities of life. May the merits (punna) that we gained through listening to the Dhamma, discussing the Dhamma and straightening our views, help us in overcoming any difficulties that we may face. May all beings inhabiting space and earth, Devas and Nagas of mighty powers, share these merits that we have acquired and may they long protect the Buddha Sasana. Let these merits accrue to our departed relatives and may they be happy. May all beings share these merits we have acquired, may it contribute greatly to their happiness. By the grace of the merits that we have acquired, may we never follow the foolish, but only the wise until we reach the final goal - Nibbana." After this is read aloud, the class recite in unison, "Saddhu, saddhu, saddhu" ("saddhu" means, "well said"). I am not sure of the source of these words, they were used in the class before I started teaching, so I kept up the tradition. A third way to transfer merits is to simply think of the departed person and think to yourself "may the merits that I have accrued be transferred to " or something similar. If a Pali phrase makes the occasion more solemn for you, you can repeat three times, "Idam me natinam hotu, sukhita hontu natayo" which means "Let this (merit) accrue to our relatives, and may they be happy!". From one perspective, the actual words used are not that critical because what matters is the internal volition rather than the external language. On the other hand, I like to use Pali for this ritual. I have a strong affinity to the Dhamma. Because of this strong attraction to the Dhamma, I am convinced that in a previous life, I must have studied the Dhamma. I have no idea of what my past nationality or mother tongue was when I studied the Dhamma in my past life, but I irrespective of that, I suspect that I chanted in Pali. When I chant in Pali in this life, this acts as a condition to evoke the feeling of reverence from past similar experiences. Anyway, that is my personal logic, feel free to chant in English, if that is what you feel comfortable with. I have given three different ways of transferring merit (ceremony, reciting a long passage, reciting a short passage). Pick the one that suits you and suits the situation. Metta, Rob M :-) 26943 From: robmoult Date: Thu Nov 13, 2003 6:23pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Accumulations, Conditions Hi Shakti, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, shakti wrote: > Thanks for telling me about the different ways that someone can share merit. Are there teachings somewhere that support this practice? If you know of any references please forward them as I'd like to investigate more. ===== Here is an extract from "EXISTENCE - REBIRTH AND PLANES OF EXISTENCE BY SUNTHORN NA-RANGSI": ----- The Paradattupajivika-peta, is an unhappy ghost who lives on the dakkhina or sacrificial gifts of others. It is because of this type of Peta that Buddhism encourages its followers to perform a dakkhina or merit-making by offering food, clothing, shelter, etc., to virtuous persons, such as a bhikkhu or a group of bhikkhus, and then to dedicate the merit acquired there from to deceased relatives. This is done on the basis of the belief that if the deceased relatives have attained the life of the Paradattupajivika-peta, their suffering, on the appreciation of the sacrifice done and dedicated to them, will be abolished and they will thereby attain to the plane of happiness. This belief is affirmed by many stories of the Peta which appear in the Petavatthu of the Pali Canon. In one story, for instance, it is said that the Venerable Sariputta came across a female Peta appearing as an ugly, bony-thin and naked woman. The Elder questioned her and she replied that she was a Peta born in the Peta-world of suffering. She reported that when she was a human being neither her father, mother nor relatives persuaded her to perform any good kamma like giving alms, observing precepts, etc. Because of lacking such meritorious deeds she was, after her human existence, consequently born as an unhappy Peta tortured by hunger and thirst for five hundred years. She at last begged for help from the Venerable Sariputta. The Elder accepted her request and later offered a certain amount of food, a small piece of cloth, and water to one bhikkhu. He particularly dedicated that dakkhina to that Peta. On appreciating the dakkhina specially consecrated to her, she immediately acquired food, clothes and other properties and became released from suffering. Having attained the state of a celestial being, she came and appeared before the Venerable Sariputta. Being unable to recognize her, the Elder asked her who she was. The devadhita (goddess) informed him and said that she had come to pay her homage to him. The Peta in the above story was obviously a Paradattupajlvika-peta. It should be noted here that according to Buddhism only the Peta of this sort are able to enjoy the outcome of dakkhina dedicated by their relatives. The Peta of other sorts are not affected by such a dedication. The dakkhina will become fruitful to the Peta, however, only when three conditions are met. The three conditions are: i. The.dakkhina or sacrifice is given to a virtuous person, ii. The performer of the dakkhina dedicates it particularly to his deceased relative, and iii. His deceased relative has been born as a Paradattupajivika-peta and that Peta knows and appreciates that dakkhina particularly consecrated to him. If any of these three conditions is lacking, the deceased relative will not be able to enjoy the outcome of the dakkhina. But whatever the case may be, the performer of the dakkhina will never be without the result of his meritorious action. ----- Sharing of merit (patidanna) is one of the ten bases of meritorious actions (punna-kiriya-vatthu): 1. Dana – giving charity or generosity 2. Sila – morality; observing precepts 3. Bhavana – meditation, both tranquility and insight 4. Appacayana – reverence to elders and holy persons 5. Veyavacca – service in wholesome deeds 6. Pattidana – transference of merit 7. Pattanumodana – rejoicing in others' merit 8. Dhamma-savana – listening to the Doctrine 9. Dhamma-desana – expounding the Doctrine 10. Ditthijjukamma – straightening one's right view ===== > I wonder how we can really share merit with someone who is dead? If anatta is a reality than who or what would we be sharing with??? > Someone who "is dead" now exists in another form; could be a hell- being, could be human, could be as an animal, could be as a Deva or could be as a "hungry ghost" (peta). Some devas and a certain type of peta (mentioned above) can sense our thoughts. If I do something good and think of dedicating the accrued merit to a departed person, then if (and only if) that person has been reborn as the certain type of peta, then the peta will be aware of my intention and rejoice in my merit (pattanumodana). This is a wholesome state that can act as a condition for the peta to be reborn in a happier state. Note that you still get the good kammic result from the good deed, even if you do not share the merit. Note also that you still get the good kammic result from sharing of merit, even if the departed relative is unable to receive it. Metta, Rob M :-) 26944 From: robmoult Date: Thu Nov 13, 2003 8:00pm Subject: First Steps Hi All, Here are a few suggestions on how to approach the study of Dhamma taken from the site "www.buddhadhamma.com": Understand why we study Dhamma ============================== We should know the purpose for learning Dhamma. It is not for obtaining something for our self, it is not for improving our good fortune, it is not for honour or fame and it is not so we can be admired as a clever person who has wisdom. For these are desires for the false concept of self. The purpose is for knowing the true nature of reality, which brings wisdom of the Four Noble Truths Study to understand what is Real ================================ At every moment there is Dhamma (realities), so at this very moment the truth of Dhamma can be verified. We do not have to look for Dhamma anywhere else because reality arises and falls away every instant through the eyes, ears, nose, tongue, body and mind. In order to be able to understand and to become familiar with Dhamma we should listen to the teachings and learn more about the things which are real and which appear now. Listen, Read and Contemplate ============================ The Dhamma is something people cannot conceive by themselves. The Buddha accumulated the perfections that enabled him to realize the true Dhamma, which he then taught to others. In order for there to be growth in the understanding of Dhamma we must listen, read, contemplate and investigate the teachings of the Buddha who explained that everything is Dhamma. Question and Doubt ================== When there is no understanding or awareness of the realities that are arising and falling away at this moment, and which create the concept of a self and the world we live in, then there will be doubts and questioning about the teaching. Doubt is normal in the learning process that leads to the understanding of Dhamma. We should doubt everything we hear and read (even on this site), and only embrace that which we know is real through direct experience. ===== Beautifully spoken. Sadhu, sadhu, sadhu. Metta, Rob M :-) 26945 From: robmoult Date: Thu Nov 13, 2003 8:09pm Subject: Introduction to the Abhidhamma - Slides 49-58 for comment Wholesome Cetasikas Slide Contents ============== In all good cittas: - Faith / Confidence / Conviction / Trust - Mindfulness / Attentiveness - Moral Shame / Conscience / Scruples / Modesty - Fear of Blame / Moral Dread - Non-attachment / Unselfishness / No Greed / Generosity - Non-Hate / Goodwill / Non-aversion - Equanimity / Mental Balance - Tranquility, Agility / Lightness / Buoyancy, Pliancy / Elasticity, Wieldiness / Adaptability / Workableness, Proficiency, Uprightness / Rectitude In some good cittas: - Abstinence from Wrong Speech / Action / Livelihood - Compassion - Sympathetic Joy / Appreciative Joy - Wisdom / Understanding Speaker Notes ============= This is the list of all wholesome mental states. We will examine the first factor on the list, faith, in more detail. Faith, Saddha in Pali, is a different from what other religions call faith. Imagine you are standing next to a stream, wondering how to get across. You see a person come up beside you, takes a running leap and jumps over the stream. Having witnessed this, you have faith, confidence, conviction and trust that it is possible to get across the stream. Faith in Buddhism is not blind faith, it is faith rooted in experience. Once you yourself have jumped over the stream, following the example of the other person, you can look back with an even stronger "pure faith" that it is possible to get across; you have faith that it is possible to get across the stream because you have done it yourself. Wholesome Cetasikas in Daily Life Slide Contents ============== The next series of drawings show some misunderstandings about faith in Buddhism. Manussa is unhappy. (Manussa is a Pali word for mankind. Dukkha means unsatisfactoriness, suffering or stress.) - Manussa: "Dukkha." He is unhappy because he is in jail. His crime? Craving. His sentence? Life imprisonment. The prison? Samsara. (Samsara is the continuous cycle of endless rebirths.) He had just finished a life term for the crime of craving and as soon as he was released, he was thrown back into the prison of Samsara for the same crime. (Craving binds us to samsara.) One day, the Buddha appeared. - Buddha: "Like you, I used to be a prisoner in Samsara. I escaped and I showed my friends, the Ariyas, how to escape as well." The Buddha gave Manussa a key. (The Buddha left behind the Dhamma.) - Buddha: "This key opens the door to the prison of Samsara. To use it, you must walk to the door, put the key in the keyhole, turn the key and open the door." The Buddha disappeared leaving the key behind. Unfortunately, Manussa lacked wisdom (pañña) and wasn't sure what to do with the key. - Manussa: "?" Manussa decided to put the key on the wall. He worshiped the key, hoping that it would release him from Samsara. (Rites and rituals, without proper understanding, do not help.) - Manussa: "This key is from the Buddha!" Manussa needed faith to believe that there was a door and that the key could work. However, to get out of Samsara, effort is needed. Without right effort, the key is useless! (We study the Dhamma to get faith; we "see how the Buddha jumped over the stream". However, nothing will happen without we ourselves making the right effort.) Slide Contents ============== Faith must be balanced with the other wholesome cetasikas - Faith without wisdom -> blind faith - Wisdom without faith -> cunning - Faith without energy -> no exertion - Energy without faith -> no resolve - Faith without concentration -> easily distracted - Concentration without faith -> no absorption - Faith without mindfulness -> no foundation - Mindfulness without faith -> no comprehension Speaker Notes ============= Faith is one of the five spiritual faculties or powers. The other four spiritual faculties or powers are wisdom, energy, concentration and mindfulness. Faith must be balanced with the other four spiritual faculties or powers. For example, too much faith with not enough wisdom leads to blind faith which is bad. On the other hand, too much wisdom with not enough faith leads to cunning, which is also bad. 26946 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Nov 13, 2003 9:14pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Meeting with K. Sujin Dear Rob M, delighted to hear about your meeting. Yes, the present moment. We may plan to do this and that pu~n~na kiriya vatthu, business- like planning, list to do, but when different conditions are at work it moves the citta to act in such or such way. No matter you planned or not. Thus, in Howard's case, you rolled from one good thing into another. Unexpectantly. I tried to find the photo, but only saw you in Hong Kong with a cup in front! Where to look? Nina. op 13-11-2003 12:54 schreef robmoult op rob.moult@j...: > I explained my > understanding of Natural Decisive Support condition and concluded by > noting that it seemed like an extremely important condition. Khun > Sujin agreed that it was an important condition but noted that there > were other important conditions as well. She then asked in a direct > manner, "but how does it link to the present moment?" 26947 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Nov 13, 2003 9:14pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Buddhaghosa Hi Michael, Thank you. I am so short of time and would rather hear about extracts, Nina. op 13-11-2003 14:41 schreef Michael Beisert op mbeisert@h...: > Yes, as I mentioned there is a chapter in the book dedicated to Buddhaghosa. 26948 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Nov 13, 2003 9:14pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Accumulations, Conditions Hi Rob, the Without the Walls Sutta, kuddhaka patha. There are verses about as the water is flowing, may there be long life etc., we can recite while pouring water in a vessel, after having offered a meal to the monks. What you suggested is familiar to me, in the Thai temple, and after a Dhamma discussion with A. Sujin. Nina. op 13-11-2003 17:32 schreef robmoult op rob.moult@j...: > As I remember (can't find the Sutta at the moment), > the Buddha encouraged sharing of merits with departed ones, but > there was no formula handed down. 26949 From: robmoult Date: Thu Nov 13, 2003 9:26pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Meeting with K. Sujin Hi Nina, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > I tried to find the photo, but only saw you in Hong Kong with a cup in > front! Where to look? At the very end of the "memebers" group there are now four photos with me in them (two from the "Howard" adventure, two taken by Sukin in Bangkok). Metta, Rob M :-) 26950 From: kenhowardau Date: Thu Nov 13, 2003 9:28pm Subject: Re: Traffic Lights Hi RobM, I'm appreciating your posts, including this one on traffic lights: -------------- RM: > So the next time that you are stopped at a red light, seize the opportunity to RELAX and be aware of the moment. You don't have to be on a meditation cushion to practice Satipatthana. -------------- Are you prescribing a course of action for pleasant abiding and for escaping samsara? Or are you describing the circumstances in which either samatha or right mindfulness might be conditioned to arise? In the latter case, you should add 'driving through a green light' and 'preparing to stop at an amber light.' Come to think of it, even in the heat of road rage, a dhamma, [dosa, for example], can be directly known as a fleeting, conditioned mental phenomenon. Changing the subject slightly, is there ever a situation in which sila, dana and bhavana need to be put off until a more suitable time? Kind regards, Ken H 26951 From: robmoult Date: Thu Nov 13, 2003 9:52pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Accumulations, Conditions Hi again Shakti, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, shakti wrote: > Thanks for telling me about the different ways that someone can share merit. Are there teachings somewhere that support this practice? If you know of any references please forward them as I'd like to investigate more. Nina pointed me to this Sutta in Khuddakapatha (Khp 7); note that "ghosts" are referred to as "shades" in the Suttas: Tirokudda Kanda -- Hungry Shades Outside the Walls ================================================== Outside the walls they stand, & at crossroads. At door posts they stand, returning to their old homes. But when a meal with plentiful food & drink is served, no one remembers them: Such is the kamma of living beings. Thus those who feel sympathy for their dead relatives give timely donations of proper food & drink -- exquisite, clean -- [thinking:] "May this be for our relatives. May our relatives be happy!" And those who have gathered there, the assembled shades of the relatives, with appreciation give their blessing for the plentiful food & drink: "May our relatives live long because of whom we have gained [this gift]. We have been honored, and the donors are not without reward!" For there [in their realm] there's no farming, no herding of cattle, no commerce, no trading with money. They live on what is given here, hungry shades whose time here is done. As water raining on a hill flows down to the valley, even so does what is given here benefit the dead. As rivers full of water fill the ocean full, even so does what is given here benefit the dead. "He gave to me, she acted on my behalf, they were my relatives, companions, friends": Offerings should be given for the dead when one reflects thus on things done in the past. For no weeping, no sorrowing no other lamentation benefits the dead whose relatives persist in that way. But when this offering is given, well-placed in the Sangha, it works for their long-term benefit and they profit immediately. In this way the proper duty to relatives has been shown, great honor has been done to the dead, and monks have been given strength: The merit you've acquired isn't small. ===== Metta, Rob M :-) 26952 From: robmoult Date: Thu Nov 13, 2003 10:18pm Subject: Re: Traffic Lights Hi Ken H, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > -------------- > RM: > So the next time that you are stopped at a red > light, seize the opportunity to RELAX and be aware of the > moment. You don't have to be on a meditation cushion to > practice Satipatthana. > -------------- > > Are you prescribing a course of action for pleasant > abiding and for escaping samsara? Or are you describing > the circumstances in which either samatha or right > mindfulness might be conditioned to arise? > > In the latter case, you should add 'driving through a > green light' and 'preparing to stop at an amber light.' > Come to think of it, even in the heat of road rage, a > dhamma, [dosa, for example], can be directly known as a > fleeting, conditioned mental phenomenon. ===== I agree that "in theory" and "for people with the right accumulations", awareness of the present moment can arise even in the heat of road rage. For an Arahant, this yoniso manisakara arises at every instant. I think that I know where you are going with this. Yesterday in Bangkok, Ivan and I discussed the role of meditation as part of practice. The way I see it, everything arises because of supporting conditions. For some people, because of their accumulations, sitting in the lotus position is a supporting condition for Satipatthana. For some people, because of their accumulations, waiting at a red light is a supporting condition for Satipatthana. For some people, because of their accumulations, being in the middle of road rage is a supporting condition for Satipatthana. I see papanca (mental proliferation) as the enemy of mindfulness. Situations which condition a lot of papanca are unlikely to support the arising of mindfulness. I tend to "lose it" during moments of madness such as road rage and papanca takes over. I tend to "be with it" during moments of sitting (though I admit that I am an infrequent meditator). I know what you are going to say... you are going to say that you detect a sense of self wanting to control the situation, when in fact trying to control the situation is like trying to control gravity. Yesterday, I mentioned to Ivan that I needed some time to assimilate the Dhamma that he was passing to me. Your post and framing my reply is part of the assimilation process. ===== > Changing the subject slightly, is there ever a situation > in which sila, dana and bhavana need to be put off until > a more suitable time? ===== Dana, sila and bhavana will arise when conditions are conducive. How can they be "put off"? Does it make sense to talk of "putting off gravity"? Your question has a whiff of "self in control" about it! Touche! :-) :-) :-) I hope that my reply is not a condition for dosa in you :-) Metta, Rob M :-) 26953 From: Sarah Date: Thu Nov 13, 2003 10:26pm Subject: Transfer of Merit: (was: Accumulations, Conditions) Hi Rob M & Shakti & All, I think Shakti asked good qus and Rob's answer was helpful. I have similar qus to Shakti's. While pirit (paritta in Pali) meaning protection by reciting or listening to suttas can be traced back to the Vinaya and suttas such as the Metta sutta (and I think the symbols of protective power in the Pirit ceremonies such as the water and thread date back to very early times), there are very few references I know of to ‘transfer of merit’. It just depends on the understanding at the time of such ceremonies whether there is any benefit when we recite or listen or perform such deeds. ..... --- robmoult wrote: From the paper Rob quoted: > This is done on the basis of the belief that if the deceased > relatives have attained the life of the Paradattupajivika-peta, > their suffering, on the appreciation of the sacrifice done and > dedicated to them, will be abolished and they will thereby attain to > the plane of happiness. This belief is affirmed by many stories of > the Peta which appear in the Petavatthu of the Pali Canon. .... I also understand that this only applies to a particular peta realm and not to life in heavenly or other realms. Furthermore, there are many accounts of petas in the Petavatthu, but mostly these are accounts of the deeds performed in previous lives which led to their present wretched lives depicted in detail. .... > In one story, for instance, it is said that the Venerable Sariputta > came across a female Peta appearing as an ugly, bony-thin and naked > woman. The Elder questioned her and she replied that she was a Peta > born in the Peta-world of suffering. ..... I wrote about this story in a previous post with some commentary quotes and also references in it to some other posts on the topic of ‘Transfer of Merit’: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/23463 This is the only story I can think of from the Peta stories, regarding specific references to transfer of merit. I’d be very glad to hear of any others in any other parts of the Pali texts. As RobM said (or the quote says), the conditions are very specific. In addition, in this account, they are most unusual. For a start, Sariputta was able to converse with the peta and knew exactly what needed to be done and what the response would be because of her request at the time. We can’t know if the deeds are appreciated by petas and often wishful thinking and attachment creeps in I think, just as when we wish living family or friends might appreciate our deeds or benefit from them. .... > The dakkhina will become fruitful to the Peta, however, only when > three conditions are met. The three conditions are: > i. The.dakkhina or sacrifice is given to a virtuous person, > ii. The performer of the dakkhina dedicates it particularly to his > deceased relative, and > iii. His deceased relative has been born as a Paradattupajivika-peta > and that Peta knows and appreciates that dakkhina particularly > consecrated to him. > > If any of these three conditions is lacking, the deceased relative > will not be able to enjoy the outcome of the dakkhina. But whatever > the case may be, the performer of the dakkhina will never be without > the result of his meritorious action. .... As you, RobM, further pointed out: ..... > Note that you still get the good kammic result from the good deed, > even if you do not share the merit. Note also that you still get the > good kammic result from sharing of merit, even if the departed > relative is unable to receive it. .... I greatly appreciate your saddha and good deeds. As you say, it all comes back to intentions and understanding. Gifts to the Sangha exceed gifts to individuals as I understand. I appreciate your examples in this and many regards. Metta, Sarah ======= 26954 From: Sarah Date: Thu Nov 13, 2003 11:08pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Accumulations, Conditions Hi again RobM & All, Thanks for quoting the verses Nina gave the reference to. There is a wonderful long and detailed commentary to them in ~Naa.namoli's translation of the Paramatthajotikaa, The Illustrator of Ultimate Meaning. It stresses how only those in the Peta realm can benefit from almsgiving too. I'm in a rush now, but would like to just give a couple of extracts which I'd obviously marked before (and quite forgotten;-)): 1. "....for it is with three factors, namely, with their own thanksgiving, with the giver's dedication, and with the excellence of the recipients, [namely, the Community headed by the Buddha,] that the offering succeeds and generates its fruit at that very moment, and of these [three] the giver was the special cause, which is why they said 'Owing to whom we have this gain'. 2. It stresses how only those in the Peta realm can benefit from almsgiving (food and drink) and reasons why. " They make use of that almsgiving. - But, master Gotama, if that deceased relative has not reappeared in that place, and if other relatives and kin of his have not reappeared in that place, who makes use of that almsgiving? - It is impossible, Divine, it cannot happen, that that place should be empty of relatives of his in this long extent [of the round of rebirths]; and furthermore, no giver ever lacked the fruit (A.v.269-71)" **** I'll read the commentary through at the weekend and see if there is anything else to add. Metta, Sarah ======= 26955 From: Sarah Date: Thu Nov 13, 2003 11:28pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Meeting with K. Sujin Hi RobM, Thanks a lot for your report and Sukin for the good pix;-) --- robmoult wrote: >She then asked in a direct > manner, "but how does it link to the present moment?" .... This would have been the response to anything you had raised;-) I had tried to hint as much. It's the same for all of us. All stories get cut down with the 'Manjushri sword' as Shakti described it;-) ***** Compassion: "its function resides in not bearing others' suffering" Atth and Vism. I merely was suggesting (and making a mountain out of a mole-hill in the process) that direct quotes of particular terms might be better staying in quotes. I think 'bearing' in English often carries the connotation of aversion, the near enemy of compassion, as in 'not being able to stand' something. Eg 'I can't stand it/bear it when people complain....' No big deal. Apologies for confusion. Metta, Sarah ====== 26956 From: robmoult Date: Fri Nov 14, 2003 0:02am Subject: Natural Decisive Support Condition (was: Accumulations) - for comment Hi All, A fundamental principle of Buddhism is that everything arises because of conditions; there is no God and no self to "decide" things. The PaÂÂhana, the seventh book of the Abhidhamma, explains conditional relations; ways in which one thing can be a condition for another. One of these modes of conditioning is "natural decisive support" (pakatupanissaya). Natural decisive support works as a condition when one of the following factors is present: - Strong past concepts - Strong past citta / cetasika - Strong past rupa "Past" does not only include experiences in the current lifetime, but also experiences from previous lifetimes. A concept, citta / cetasika or rupa can be "strong" when: - It was encountered frequently in the past (a past habit) - It was experienced very recently (bad news in one moment influences your reaction to something else in the next moment) - It was associated with very strong volition in the past (strong past impression or a solemn vow) "Strong past concepts, citta / cetasikas or rupa" are the conditioning factors, natural decisive support is the mode of conditioning, but what is conditioned? The texts explain that all 89 cittas and their associated cetasikas are conditioned. In other words, natural decisive support plays a part in the arising of every mental state. Though every single citta is influenced by natural decisive support, we can see that there are certain cittas where this conditioning by natural decisive support plays an important role: - Sense-door adverting: this citta controls the flow of the citta process and "decides" that a certain rupa will become the object of a citta process. Each of the senses is constantly bombarded with information; it is natural decisive support condition that "decides" which data will be processed. - Determining / mind door adverting: this citta controls the flow of the citta process and "decides" which type of javana (kamma producing) cittas will follow. Natural decisive support condition "decides" if our thoughts will be kusala or akusala. - Javana: these cittas create kamma. The weightiness of the kamma produced depends on the strength of the volition (cetana). It is natural decisive support that "decides" how strong the cetana will be and therefore the weightiness of the resulting kamma. - Jhana: The arising of the jhana citta depend on natural decisive support condition. It is this condition that "decides" when we should enter jhana. - Path: The arising of the supramundane cittas depend on natural decisive support condition. It is this condition that "decides" when we are ready to become a Sotapanna (or higher). The popular saying that "people are creatures of habit" is true. If we do metta meditation each morning, our mind naturally reacts with metta throughout the day. If we feel drawn to the Dhamma, it is probably because we studied the Dhamma in a past life and have accumulations to study the Dhamma in this life as well. If we are attracted to a person, it is probably because we have been associated with them in a past life (Yasodhara was the wife of the Buddha in a previous existence). If we have a "talent" in music or art, it is probably because of experience in past lives. There are hundreds of examples in the Suttas and commentaries where the character or circumstances of a person is linked to accumulations from a previous life. The ability to perceive a person's accumulations is one of the unique abilities of a Buddha (Arahants and others do not have this ability). At the time of the Dipankara Buddha, Sumedha the Hermit made a solemn vow that he would become a future Buddha. This solemn vow influenced the Bodhisatta for countless lifetimes. Sariputta and Moggallana were chief disciples of the Buddha and Ananda was the attendant of the Buddha because they had made solemn vows in previous lives that this was the role that they wanted to play. An understanding of how this law of nature called natural decisive support works can be a condition for the creation of kusala kamma: - We should look for opportunities to perform wholesome deeds. This searching for and planning a wholesome deed is, in itself, a wholesome deed. We should ensure that all wholesome deeds are done with strong volition, mindfulness and clear intention. We should review and rejoice in wholesome deeds performed and share the merits of our actions. Each of these activities creates good kamma and good accumulations; a condition to support the performing of more good deeds in the future. - When there is an unwholesome state of mind, we should note it with mindfulness. Seeing an unwholesome state of mind for what it is constitutes a wholesome action. Mindfulness arrests the process of mental proliferation (papa¾ca); the multiplication of unwholesome states of mind. Practicing mindfulness on an unwholesome state of mind weakens the power of the accumulation that conditioned the unwholesome state. - We should understand the potential power of a solemn vow. To increase the potency of the vow, it should be made when the mind is clear and not troubled by restlessness. The creation of kusala kamma will bring pleasant results in the future, but it does not help us to escape from samsara. To escape from samsara, one must develop the accumulation of seeing things as they truly are (nama and rupa) and recognize the three characteristics of realities (anicca, dukkha and anatta). We are often deluded into believing in a "self that has control". Reflecting upon natural decisive support condition supports an understanding of anatta. To draw an analogy, gravity does not "decide" to cause something to fall; gravity is a law of nature. Natural decisive support is also a law of nature. Imagine a pile of rough gravel with a ball placed at the top. Gravity will cause the ball to fall and the laws of physics will determine the path that the ball takes as it rolls down. The path that the ball takes will be determined by many factors including the most recent bounce and any gullies that there may be in the gravel (i.e. accumulations). From this analogy, we can see: - It is almost impossible to predict, with accuracy how the mind will react (i.e. don't know for sure the path the ball may take) - There is no self in control (i.e. the natural laws of physics / natural decisive support condition is "in control") 26957 From: robmoult Date: Fri Nov 14, 2003 0:15am Subject: Re: Accumulations, Conditions and Anatta - Interesting observation Hi Victor, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "yu_zhonghao" wrote: > So you didn't indicate where you get the idea that the concept of > anatta did not allow for a supervisory self making decisions. > > Let's go back to what the Buddha taught regarding the conditioned: > > Feeling is not self. Feeling is to be seen as it actually is with > right discernment thus: "This is not mine. This I am not. This is > not my self." > > Likewise, form is not self. Form is to be seen as it actually is > with right discernment thus: "This is not mine. This I am not. > This is not my self." > > Likewise for perception, mental fabrications, and consciousness. > > I have indicated to you what the Buddha taught regarding the > conditioned. > > The idea that the concept of anatta did not allow for a supervisory > self making decisions is like a clutter. And as long as you hold on > to that idea, it will block you in clearly understanding what the > Buddha taught as it is. > > Only you can clear out the clutter and abandon for yourself the idea > that the concept of anatta did not allow for a supervisory self > making decisions. > > And it can be hard for one to do so. Sometime one has attachment to > things and throwing them away can be a very uncomfortable thing to > do. You may have noticed that I occasionally post mini-essays on DSG. I write these mini-essays to be handed out as "Class Notes" during my Abhidhamma class and post them on DSG for comment in advance. This week, I will talk about Natural Decisive Support Condition and Carita. Last week, I talked about Karuna. Prior to that, I talked about the 31 Planes, etc. I was wondering what to prepare for next week's class when I read this post. This wonderful post of yours has been one of the conditions for me to choose to write about anatta. Comments from K. Sujin and Ivan during my lunch yesterday in Bangkok were other supporting conditions. I am now starting to read a detailed (180 pages) commentary on the Anattalakkhana Sutta written by Ven. Mahasi Sayadaw. I look forward to your comments on my next "mini-essay". Metta, Rob M :-) 26958 From: buddhatrue Date: Fri Nov 14, 2003 0:45am Subject: Re: Accumulations - for comment/Anapanasati --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Michael Beisert" wrote: > James, > > I am not familiar with what you are quoting from the Abhidhamma, that nama > and rupa can exist separate from each other. It only rings a bell in > relation to immaterial planes of existence where there is no rupa, only > nama. Is that what you mean? Apart from that the existence of nama and rupa > with separate agendas would in my view contradict what is in the suttas. > > Metta > Michael > Hi Michael, I didn't quote the Abhidhamma (when I quote I use citations and quotation marks), I paraphrased with a subjective analysis. It seems that you want me to explain what I said in relation to the suttas, I can't do that. Of course it contradicts the suttas, but it doesn't contradict the Abhidhamma. According to the Abhidhamma there are mind states that arise separate from rupa and are not dependent on rupa: they are termed `cetasikas'. They are supposed to be mental factors dependent on predominately consciousness, not exclusively rupa (I don't believe in them). Rupa is also materiality that exists separate from nama and has three inherent characteristics independent of nama: dukkha, impermanence, and non-self (I don't believe in them either). As a scientific theory, this is very primitive; recent advances in psychology and quantum physics disprove these theories. As Buddhism, it is worthless and harmful. Memorizing these terms and categories doesn't connect a person with the present moment or non-self, two reported goals of the Abhidhamma. It reinforces the ego as a `thing' observing other `things' that exist somewhere `out there'. I hope I have clarified my position for you. If you have other questions don't hesitate to ask. Metta, James Ps. I like your website. It is a very good thing that you have done. 26959 From: gazita2002 Date: Fri Nov 14, 2003 3:12am Subject: Re: Dhamma-vinaya Hello Sukin and Victor, I found this discussion very benefical. Sometimes I read dsg letters and find a lot are far too 'wordy' for me, and I guess bec. of this, I miss valuable info. However, I do find some that somehow 'hit the spot'. -- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Sukinderpal Singh Narula" wrote: > Hi Victor, > > > I have not studied the Abhidhamma Pitaka. Maybe you can tell me > how > > the qualities of Abhidhamma Pitaka lead to dispassion, not to > > passion; to being unfettered, not to being fettered; to shedding, > > not to accumulating; to modesty, not to self-aggrandizement; to > > contentment, not to discontent; to seclusion, not to entanglement; > > to aroused persistence, not to laziness; to being unburdensome, > not > > to being burdensome. > > :-)I was hoping you wouldn't direct the question back to me. > But I had several reasons for asking you as I did. > [snip] > > However, I would like to mention here with regard to my impression > of Abhidhamma that its study deals with "present realities". And > this I think, is more important that anything else. It does not > matter what the labels are used, as long as they lead to `what can > be observed in the moment'. And even if it is still only theory, > because accumulated panna is not strong enough to > condition `practice', this theory makes more sense than anything > else I have ever encountered. I understand by this comment Sukin, that practice is only a momentary event, at the moment when Panna arises. Is that what you are suggesting here? In fact with this understanding in > mind, I get the impression increasingly, that to think in terms > of `doing' something for future results would be from `wrong > thinking', `misdirected thoughts'. > Another good reminder for me, that there is no 'me' to do anything anyway. Any attempt to have more understanding, is just 'me' wanting, lobha again. > It is possible that you think that `theory' or `pariyatti', is just > a lot of words, words that `hinder' direct understanding instead of > leading to it. But as I have said before, my own understanding > about `theory' is that it is not the `words' that matter, but the > understanding of what they mean. Once there is the understanding, > then `words' become an ally instead of a hindrance. Without > the `understanding', yes, it would be quite useless. However the > important thing to remember is not about the `pro' as against > the `con', this is in fact a minor and quite obvious point anyway. > What is hard to appreciate, being subtle, is that `theory' is a > necessary starting point. Beautifully 'worded' Sukin, a really good point, in my view. And this theory being equivalent to a > particular level of `understanding', is what `conditions' the > successive levels of the same. There is *no* other way. However > there is no self who decides to `apply' or `let go' of theory. > Lobha is so pervasive and the `self' seeks results, and in the > process it is attracted by what `seems' to work and is > within `self's' reach. Of course, an Abhidhammist also has an equal > tendency to lobha, which amongst other things, is the habit > of `labeling', resting upon the perceived ability to identify > experiences. This is something which happens to me all the time and > perhaps this is one thing that strikes someone like you Victor, as > being particularly inhibiting. Again this is why it is so important > to discuss with wise friends. ;-) > > Have I lead you far enough. ;-) > Look forward to your response. > > Metta, > Sukin. I think that weak understanding is very natural, unless there are accumulations for strong understanding, of course. I think of small children who are just learning to walk, they stand up, they fall down; wobble,wobble - fall down again. Begin again, how can we know how much wisdom we have, how far we have come, how far there is to go? May we all have lots of patience, courage and good cheer, Azita. 26960 From: monomuni Date: Thu Nov 13, 2003 11:59pm Subject: Cool Pool & Sure Cure Friends; Once upon a time, in the prosperous city of Amara, the successful Brahmin Sumedha, who 4 incalculable periods & 100.000 world cycles later would become our most recent Sakyamuni Buddha said to himself: When a man, though covered all over with dirt & filth, does neither search nor wash himself in the clean pool, that is not a defect of the pool! Even & exactly so with the pool of the Undying State, that exists for the purification of mental contaminations. If the mentally imperfect do not seek that pool, that is not a defect of this eternal pool! When a man afflicted by severe & deadly disease, does not seek the Doctor, though a sure cure exist, that is not a defect of the Doctor nor of the Cure! Even & exactly so, when one troubled by Misery caused by mental defilements, does not seek Guidance, that is not a defect of the Teacher nor of the Teaching. Even & exactly as humans leave their excrement being indifferent & unconcerned, so will I leave this filthy frame and go on elated as one who have eased himself leaves the toilet ... Then he gave up & left behind all riches & went on foot to the Himalayas as an ascetic clothed in bark ... There he developed the attainments and met Dipankara; the 24th in the endless Noble lineage of prior Buddhas. --oo0oo-- Source: BuddhaVamsa: The Chronicle of the Buddhas: http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=13072X Quite well translated by Miss I.B. Horner. Prior President of the Pali Text Society: http://www.palitext.demon.co.uk/ Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. : - ] Friendship is truly GREATEST; http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Buddha-Direct Easy subscription by sending an email to: Buddha-Direct-subscribe@yahoogroups.com -- A saying of the Buddha from http://metta.lk/ Ah, happily do we live, we who have no impediments. Feeders of joy shall we be even as the gods of the Radiant Realm. Random Dhammapada Verse 200 26961 From: shakti Date: Fri Nov 14, 2003 6:11am Subject: Re: [dsg] Transfer of Merit: (was: Accumulations, Conditions) Dear Rob M, Sarah and Others, Thanks for the additional information. I still feel doubtful about our being able to share merit with those departed. The whole experience of this seems so 'out there.' If we are to verify everything by our own experience and not just 'believe', how then is one to verifty this for oneself? With metta, Shakti Sarah wrote: Hi Rob M & Shakti & All, I think Shakti asked good qus and Rob's answer was helpful. I have similar qus to Shakti's. While pirit (paritta in Pali) meaning protection by reciting or listening to suttas can be traced back to the Vinaya and suttas such as the Metta sutta (and I think the symbols of protective power in the Pirit ceremonies such as the water and thread date back to very early times), there are very few references I know of to ‘transfer of merit’. It just depends on the understanding at the time of such ceremonies whether there is any benefit when we recite or listen or perform such deeds. ..... --- robmoult wrote: From the paper Rob quoted: > This is done on the basis of the belief that if the deceased > relatives have attained the life of the Paradattupajivika-peta, > their suffering, on the appreciation of the sacrifice done and > dedicated to them, will be abolished and they will thereby attain to > the plane of happiness. This belief is affirmed by many stories of > the Peta which appear in the Petavatthu of the Pali Canon. .... I also understand that this only applies to a particular peta realm and not to life in heavenly or other realms. Furthermore, there are many accounts of petas in the Petavatthu, but mostly these are accounts of the deeds performed in previous lives which led to their present wretched lives depicted in detail. .... > In one story, for instance, it is said that the Venerable Sariputta > came across a female Peta appearing as an ugly, bony-thin and naked > woman. The Elder questioned her and she replied that she was a Peta > born in the Peta-world of suffering. ..... I wrote about this story in a previous post with some commentary quotes and also references in it to some other posts on the topic of ‘Transfer of Merit’: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/23463 This is the only story I can think of from the Peta stories, regarding specific references to transfer of merit. I’d be very glad to hear of any others in any other parts of the Pali texts. As RobM said (or the quote says), the conditions are very specific. In addition, in this account, they are most unusual. For a start, Sariputta was able to converse with the peta and knew exactly what needed to be done and what the response would be because of her request at the time. We can’t know if the deeds are appreciated by petas and often wishful thinking and attachment creeps in I think, just as when we wish living family or friends might appreciate our deeds or benefit from them. .... > The dakkhina will become fruitful to the Peta, however, only when > three conditions are met. The three conditions are: > i. The.dakkhina or sacrifice is given to a virtuous person, > ii. The performer of the dakkhina dedicates it particularly to his > deceased relative, and > iii. His deceased relative has been born as a Paradattupajivika-peta > and that Peta knows and appreciates that dakkhina particularly > consecrated to him. > > If any of these three conditions is lacking, the deceased relative > will not be able to enjoy the outcome of the dakkhina. But whatever > the case may be, the performer of the dakkhina will never be without > the result of his meritorious action. .... As you, RobM, further pointed out: ..... > Note that you still get the good kammic result from the good deed, > even if you do not share the merit. Note also that you still get the > good kammic result from sharing of merit, even if the departed > relative is unable to receive it. .... I greatly appreciate your saddha and good deeds. As you say, it all comes back to intentions and understanding. Gifts to the Sangha exceed gifts to individuals as I understand. I appreciate your examples in this and many regards. Metta, Sarah ======= 26962 From: shakti Date: Fri Nov 14, 2003 6:12am Subject: Re: [dsg] Transfer of Merit: (was: Accumulations, Conditions) Dear Rob M, Sarah and Others, Thanks for the additional information. I still feel doubtful about our being able to share merit with those departed. The whole experience of this seems so 'out there.' If we are to verify everything by our own experience and not just 'believe', how then is one to verifty this for oneself? With metta, Shakti Sarah wrote: Hi Rob M & Shakti & All, I think Shakti asked good qus and Rob's answer was helpful. I have similar qus to Shakti's. While pirit (paritta in Pali) meaning protection by reciting or listening to suttas can be traced back to the Vinaya and suttas such as the Metta sutta (and I think the symbols of protective power in the Pirit ceremonies such as the water and thread date back to very early times), there are very few references I know of to ‘transfer of merit’. It just depends on the understanding at the time of such ceremonies whether there is any benefit when we recite or listen or perform such deeds. ..... --- robmoult wrote: From the paper Rob quoted: > This is done on the basis of the belief that if the deceased > relatives have attained the life of the Paradattupajivika-peta, > their suffering, on the appreciation of the sacrifice done and > dedicated to them, will be abolished and they will thereby attain to > the plane of happiness. This belief is affirmed by many stories of > the Peta which appear in the Petavatthu of the Pali Canon. .... I also understand that this only applies to a particular peta realm and not to life in heavenly or other realms. Furthermore, there are many accounts of petas in the Petavatthu, but mostly these are accounts of the deeds performed in previous lives which led to their present wretched lives depicted in detail. .... > In one story, for instance, it is said that the Venerable Sariputta > came across a female Peta appearing as an ugly, bony-thin and naked > woman. The Elder questioned her and she replied that she was a Peta > born in the Peta-world of suffering. ..... I wrote about this story in a previous post with some commentary quotes and also references in it to some other posts on the topic of ‘Transfer of Merit’: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/23463 This is the only story I can think of from the Peta stories, regarding specific references to transfer of merit. I’d be very glad to hear of any others in any other parts of the Pali texts. As RobM said (or the quote says), the conditions are very specific. In addition, in this account, they are most unusual. For a start, Sariputta was able to converse with the peta and knew exactly what needed to be done and what the response would be because of her request at the time. We can’t know if the deeds are appreciated by petas and often wishful thinking and attachment creeps in I think, just as when we wish living family or friends might appreciate our deeds or benefit from them. .... > The dakkhina will become fruitful to the Peta, however, only when > three conditions are met. The three conditions are: > i. The.dakkhina or sacrifice is given to a virtuous person, > ii. The performer of the dakkhina dedicates it particularly to his > deceased relative, and > iii. His deceased relative has been born as a Paradattupajivika-peta > and that Peta knows and appreciates that dakkhina particularly > consecrated to him. > > If any of these three conditions is lacking, the deceased relative > will not be able to enjoy the outcome of the dakkhina. But whatever > the case may be, the performer of the dakkhina will never be without > the result of his meritorious action. .... As you, RobM, further pointed out: ..... > Note that you still get the good kammic result from the good deed, > even if you do not share the merit. Note also that you still get the > good kammic result from sharing of merit, even if the departed > relative is unable to receive it. .... I greatly appreciate your saddha and good deeds. As you say, it all comes back to intentions and understanding. Gifts to the Sangha exceed gifts to individuals as I understand. I appreciate your examples in this and many regards. Metta, Sarah ======= 26963 From: Kenneth Ong Date: Fri Nov 14, 2003 6:31am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Accumulations - for comment/Anapanasati Hi Victor, Let me apologise if accidentally putting words in your mouth. Your sutta quote is very clear that both of calm and insight are practise together and not one exclusively another. It also very clear that without each other, there will be no jhanas. The word mindfullness in breathing is a combination of both calm and insight, where breathing meditation is only calm. Buddha does not each one exclusively of another, it teaches both as engine to enlightment. I hope you can see the difference and importance of both and not one. Kind regards Ken O > breathing for the Moha-citta person?" I suggest quoting what > others > actually said in the message in order to avoid putting words in > others' mouth, intentionally or unintentionally. > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Kenneth Ong > wrote: > > Hi James and others > [snip] 26964 From: abhidhammika Date: Fri Nov 14, 2003 6:47am Subject: [dsg] Re: Buddhaghosa(Suan): To Robert and Michael Dear Robert K, Nina, Michael and all How are you? As Robert said, I did write about some mistakes in Kalupahana's works including the one Michael mentioned. The topics I took issue with Kalupahana were about his misunderstanding of the terms "cittam", "mano", and "viññaa.nam". He also misunderstood the consciousness aggregate. I refuted Kalupahana thoroughly in the article pages which are available in the journal issue 2000 and 2001 on the bodhiology website. If Robert had downloaded them previously, please feel free to forward them here. Even though Kalupahana wrote about Buddhaghosa, he appeared to not have read commentaries seriously, even A.t.thasaalinii at least. In fact, in the Notes Section of one of his works, he even critcized a writer for relying on commentaries in his work on some Abhidhamma topics. Had Kalupahana read and understood Buddhagosa's works properly, he would not have made the serious mistakes he did on such easy topics as the consciousness aggregate, the terms "cittam", "mano", and "viññaa.nam". Like Nina, I also welcome anyone - who found any inaccuracies or any inconsistencies with the Buddha's teachings in Buddhaghosa's standard commentaries - to present them here. I will undertake thorough investigations into them and write academic replies. All I ask is Be Specific, Give References either in Section numbers or the original Pali Passages. Without being able to provide such specific details, any criticism of Buddhaghosa would be the wrong speech (Micchaavaacaa), thereby deviating from the Noble Eightfold Path. With regards, Suan http://www.bodhiology.org --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: Dear Michael, Suan Lu Zwa, a member of this group, wrote an article about Kalupahana's book, I think. He might have some comments too. Robert 26965 From: Kenneth Ong Date: Fri Nov 14, 2003 6:56am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Accumulations - for comment/Anapanasati Hi James > It threatens to drown the issue (which in Congress they call 'filibustering'). k: James this word 'filibustering' makes me laugh bc I was just reading an article about a democrat senator who purposely talk about an issue for eight hours. Does> a > person need to drink the whole ocean to know that it tastes salty? k: Yes it is true one does not need to drink the whole ocean to know it is salty. However, I think this is not a good comparision. Just like when we want to understand the sutta, we do not rely on one, and hence we will also tend to look at many others. In my opinion he is not disputing we cannot practise mindfullnes of the breath, he is pointing out that this is for those with a certain level. It may be hard to shallow, why for them only. Even I also do not know the answer. I think one sutta is particuarly interesting, MH 107, Ganakamoggallana Sutta, Buddha talks about gradual training. He trains his monk first in Morality, then in Sense control, Moderation in Eating, Vigilance, Mindfullness and clear consciousness, Overcoming the five hindrance and lastly Jhanas. Mindfulnes is at number 5. Hence only through practise of actions and thought, then practise of mindfullness is being practised. This maybe support the theory why Buddhaghosa said that it is for certain level of disciple. To me, practice of mindfullness should not be confine purely on breath, it is only an opening to other things in Satipatthana practises. Satipatthana practise should be seen as whole and not piecemeal. Kind regards Ken O 26966 From: buddhatrue Date: Fri Nov 14, 2003 9:42am Subject: [dsg] Re: Accumulations - for comment/Anapanasati Hi Ken O, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Kenneth Ong wrote: > Hi James > > > It threatens to drown the issue (which in Congress they call > 'filibustering'). > > k: James this word 'filibustering' makes me laugh bc I was just > reading an article about a democrat senator who purposely talk about > an issue for eight hours. James: Yea, you gotta love politics! ;-) > > Does> a > person need to drink the whole ocean to know that it > tastes salty? > > k: Yes it is true one does not need to drink the whole ocean to know > it is salty. However, I think this is not a good comparision. Just > like when we want to understand the sutta, we do not rely on one, and > hence we will also tend to look at many others. James: Well, this is a metaphor, it isn't to be taken literally. Did you have to read every single sutta to know that Buddhism was true? I know I didn't. I knew it pretty quickly; after one book actually "Entering the Stream". Some people it may take more books and more reading, but my point is that you don't have to read absolutely everything. There were some posts in this group suggesting that it is necessary to read and study everyting in great depth before drawing conclusions, and I doubt that they have even read and studied absolutely everything! It is a double standard...and a silly defense against criticisms. > not disputing we cannot practise mindfullnes of the breath, he is > pointing out that this is for those with a certain level. It may be > hard to shallow, why for them only. Even I also do not know the > answer. James: I don't think that you should 'swallow' anything when you don't, for yourself, know the answer. The Buddha also taught this. Until I know for sure what he wrote and why he wrote it, I am not going to believe that mindfulness of breathing is just for Buddhas and those close to being Buddhas. My understanding from the sutta is that it is for everyone. Nina stated that that particular sutta was directed to a certain group of people. I want some proof of that...it isn't in the sutta and that doesn't correspond with the sutta contents. Frankly, I think this is all a smoke screen to justify a choice to not practice meditation, to just study dhamma instead. Because the Buddha gave oral lessons and didn't require all of the monks to memorize them all verbatim, I don't see how one could assume he taught 'study' as a path to enlightenment. Practice is the path he taught. > > I think one sutta is particuarly interesting, MH 107, > Ganakamoggallana Sutta, Buddha talks about gradual training. He > trains his monk first in Morality, then in Sense control, Moderation > in Eating, Vigilance, Mindfullness and clear consciousness, > Overcoming the five hindrance and lastly Jhanas. Mindfulnes is at > number 5. Hence only through practise of actions and thought, then > practise of mindfullness is being practised. This maybe support the > theory why Buddhaghosa said that it is for certain level of disciple. > > To me, practice of mindfullness should not be confine purely on > breath, it is only an opening to other things in Satipatthana > practises. Satipatthana practise should be seen as whole and not > piecemeal. James: I agree. > > > Kind regards > Ken O Metta, James 26967 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Nov 14, 2003 10:55am Subject: Re: [dsg] anapanasatisutta, rainy seasons. Hi Michael, They would be mahaathera of sa.t.thi vassika, vassa being rainy season. But I do not have the Pali text, I used the Thai Co and also Ven. Nanamoli's co.It is not a category, just the years they were bhikkhu is mentioned. Nina. op 13-11-2003 21:25 schreef Michael Beisert op mbeisert@h...: > Nina, > > Quick question. You know the name in Pali for this category? > > "The elders (of sixty rainy seasons)" 26968 From: Michael Beisert Date: Fri Nov 14, 2003 11:49am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Buddhaghosa(Suan): To Robert and Michael Suan, Nina and all, >Like Nina, I also welcome anyone - who found any inaccuracies or any >inconsistencies with the Buddha's teachings in Buddhaghosa's standard >commentaries - to present them here. I will undertake thorough >investigations into them and write academic replies. Since many of you asked for specifics, there you have it. Below is a reproduction of a part of the chapter on Buddhaghosa which contains some of the critics on the Visudhimagga. You will see that your comments about Kalupahana’s ‘mistakes’ do not apply here. Take your time and enjoy the reading. There is more about the Visudhimagga which can be posted here in the future. Buddhaghosa, the Harmonizer A History of Buddhist Philosophy David Kalupahana The Visuddhimagga treats its subject matter under three headings: morality or virtue (sila), concentration (samadhi), and insight (panna). In fact, Buddhaghosa begins the treatise with a verse in which the Buddha himself explains how to disentangle this tangle or puzzle of life: A wise man, a monk [who] is ardent and sagacious, having established [himself] in morality, and developing his thought and insight, will disentangle this entangle. The entire treatise is supposed to be a commentary on this verse. However, Buddhaghosa begins by analyzing the title of his work, "path of purification," into two elements, namely, the purification and the path leading to it. He equates purification with nirvana. Being free from all defiling tendencies, it is utterly pure; it is the one goal. However, there can be many paths (magga) leading to that one goal (ekayana). Quoting statements from the discourses, he lists at least six different ways of attaining the goal: 1. Insight (panna) 2. Contemplation and insight ljhana and panna) 3. Action (kamma) 4. Morality or virtue (sua) 5. Mindfulness (sati) 6. Right effort (samma vayama), etc.12 However, Buddhaghosa is interested in presenting the path as a gradual one, so he opts for the explanation in terms of the threefold division of morality, concentration, and insight. Morality or virtue (sila) is examined in a variety of ways. Questions such as What is morality? In what sense is it morality? What are its characteristics, etc.? What are the benefits of morality? How many kinds of morality are there? and finally, How is it defiled? and How is it cleansed? are raised. Most of the answers are extremely authoritative, for they are substantiated by a profusion of quotations from the early discourses of the Buddha. However, one question for which Buddhaghosa fails to provide substantiation from the early discourses is that relating to characteristics and the like. Yet for Buddhaghosa this is an extremely important question. Not finding appropriate quotations from the early discourses of the Buddha, he attributes the answer to the wise ones (vinnu), and he continues to apply this definition in clarifying almost every concept he has to deal with. The definition is made in terms of four conditions: characteristic (lakkhana), quality (rasa), manifestation (paccupatthana), and foundation (padatthana). The explanation of morality in terms of these four conditions is as follows: 1. Morality, in spite of its diverse elements, has the characteristic of composing (silana), like visibility in the case of different forms of visible data (rupa). 2. Its quality is twofold: functional and consummative. Its functional quality or act-character is the destruction of bad moral habits (dussilya) and its consummative quality is the attainment of blamelessness (anavajja). 3. It manifests in the form of pt:rity (soceyya). 4. Its foundation consists of sensitivity (ottappa) and modesty (hirt), for without these there would be no moral life. In the first place, Buddhaghosa's inability to quote any authoritative text from the early discourses in support of this definition weakens its authority, especially in the context of the hermeneutical principles laid down by the Buddha under the mahapadesas (see Chapter v). Second, Buddhaghosa does not even refer to the definition or interpretation of concepts in the more authoritative non-canonical hermeneutical treatise, preserved at the Mahavihara, called the Netti (Guide), which contained a sophisticated method of conveying (hara) the meanings of concepts. Even though that treatise was pre-Buddhaghosan, he seems to have ignored it. Dhammapala, who followed Buddhaghosa, is said to have compiled the existing commentary on it. One reason Buddhaghosa may have disregarded this work is that its sixteen modes of conveying or determining the meanings of concepts were too cumbersome compared to the fourfold definition. But more important is the fact that the fourfold definition enabled Buddhaghosa to introduce, rather surreptitiously, the substantialist as well as essentialist standpoints of the Sarvastivadins and Sautrantikas. Dhammapala did so more openly, and in the end the Mahavihara tradition seems to have been overwhelmed by such interpretations. The fourfold definition demonstrates Buddhaghosa's capacity to harmonize several strands of thought that had by then emerged in the Buddhist tradition. The categories that created much controversy among Buddhists-namely, the particular or the unique (sabhava = svabhava) and the universal or the abstract (samañña = samanya)-are here introduced under the guise of characteristics (lakkhana = laksana), and came to be identified as such in later manuals. The recognition of such categories would not have been problematic if not for the fact that they were thus distinguished by later Theravadin philosophers, thereby allowing for the emergence of metaphysical theories of identity and difference comparable to those criticized by Nagarjuna. Thus the particular (sabhava, salakkhana) came to be looked upon as the absolutely unique character not shared by anything else (anaññasadharana), the universal (samañña) being identified with the common or the shared (sadharana). This was more or less the standpoint of the essentialist. With the pursuit of such an essentialist conceptual enterprise, the explanation of events or entities in terms of their dependence (paticcasamuppada) was relegated to the background. The above definition may appear to be harmless so long as Buddhaghosa's endeavor was to explain the empirical constituents and conditions of morality (sua). These, according to the Buddha, are non-substantial (anatta); hence neither the category of characteristics (lakkhana, involving the particular/universal dichotomy) nor the category of foundation (padatthana) should be understood in a rather strict sense as defining the ultimate meaning of the nature and constituents of morality. Yet for Buddhaghosa, the fourfold definition is intended to determine the precise meaning of morality, that is, to answer the question, In what sense is morality? (Ken' atthena silam). It is therefore not a simple empirical description but one intended to bring out the essential and real meaning. Thus the fourfold definition is not a hermeneutical device but a language of precision intended to replace the empirical description (sammuti, vohara) with more precise and technical vocabulary (paramatthavacana). A philosophically correct language is not in itself an unreasonable ideal for a philosopher, but it need not be pursued at the expense of veridical knowledge. Unfortunately, Buddhaghosa's philosophical language eliminated not only metaphysical conceptions, such as permanent and eternal subjects and objects, but also empirical distinctions like: woman (itthi) and man (purisa), retaining only the aggregates (khandha). The fact that this is an essentialist enterprise is made clear by his analysis of human life into discrete momentary events, which he justifies by quoting a passage that is supposed to be from the Buddha but that has not yet been traced in any of the early discourses. It seems that, because of the manner in which Buddhaghosa introduced this essentialist definition, which he used extensively in the Visuddhimagga and the entire set of commentaries he compiled on the three collections (tipitaka), the Mahavihara monks did not realize its far-reaching implications. Even if they were aware of them, they were probably fearful of being as aggressive as they had been on previous occasions. The consequences of this essentialist definition became apparent only in the writings of Theravada teachers like Anuruddha and Sariputta a few centuries later. Metta Michael 26969 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Fri Nov 14, 2003 0:50pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Act of consciousness Howard --- upasaka_howard wrote: > Hi, Jon - Howard: As I mentioned in a previous post, by an 'act of consciousness' I mean "contact," and nothing more or less. In the suttas, the Buddha defines contact to be exactly the coming together of sense object, sense door, and sense consciousness. This is what the Buddha meant by 'phassa'. If phassa is concept-only, then phassa is just a useful fiction, not a truly occuring event, or at least not a fundamental one. However, I don't consider it to be concept-only. I understand such an event to be fundamental. Moreover, none of its three aspects occur without the others, which is exactly what I mean by their being "inseparable." Jon: If I may paraphrase you (correctly, I hope), you say that there is a fundamental event called an 'act of consciousness' comprising 3 aspects -- sense object, sense door, and sense consciousness -- that are inseparable in the sense that each does not occur without the other 2 at that moment. To my reading of the texts, the focus of the teachings is on the fundamental phenomena (dhammas) such as the 3 'aspects' you mention here, rather than the 'events' that are their co occurrence. These fundamental phenomena are, if you like, more 'fundamental' than those events. The point about dhammas is that they each have their own characteristic, and this characteristic pertains regardless of the circumstances or combination in which they arise. It is the function of panna to experience directly dhammas, not events. What you refer to as inseparability could otherwise be called mutual dependence or mutual conditionality, I believe. Mutual conditionality can take many forms, and there are in fact many different conditions applying to a given dhamma at a given moment. However, the fact of mutual dependence does not mean that the individual dhammas are thereby less capable of being directly known individually. Thus at any moment of the presently occurring 'event' of seeing, the consciousness that is experiencing the visible-object, and the visible-object that is the object of the seeing consciousness, each have their own separate characteristic that is not in any way blurred or compromised by the fact of their mutual dependence of this moment. At least, that is my understanding of the teachings. Howard: The Buddha *did* define 'contact' in the suttas to be the coming together of sense object, sense door, and sense consciousness. If the Abhidhamma sees it differently, then the Abhidhamma takes exception to the Buddha's position. I'll go with the Buddha. Here is an example of what you refer to, I think (SN XXXV, 60 -- trans CDB p.1149): "Bhikkhus, I will teach you the Dhamma for the full understanding of all clinging. Listen to that... "And what, bhikkhus, is the Dhamma for the full understanding of all clinging? In dependence on the eye and forms, eye-consciousness arises. The meeting of the three is contact. With contact as condition, feeling comes to be." Here we have a reference to your 3 aspects of sense object, sense base and sense consciousness, with the coming-together of the 3 as being contact (and then feeling). However, if we read on, in the immediately following passage the Buddha says: "Seeing thus the instructed noble disciple experiences revulsion towards the eye, towards forms, towards, eye-consciousness, towards eye-contact, towards feeling. Experiencing revulsion, he becomes dispassionate. ..." There is no suggestion here of the significance of any 'event' or the inseparability of its aspects. It seems to me that the emphasis is the other way, on the need for each of the individual aspects, of which phassa is but one, to be known or seen each as they are. Howard: I have never experienced objectless consciousness. Have you, Jon? I've never known an unexperienced object of consciousness. Have you? In fact, is there such a thing as a sense-door activation, a sense object, or a sense consciousness ever occurring except as an aspect of an act of consciousness (phassa/contact)? I don't believe so. Again, you choose to emphasise an aspect (inseparability/mutual dependence) that is not the primary focus of the suttas. It seems you see the fact of mutual dependence as making it not possible for the component aspects to have their own characteristic or, if they do, for that characteristic to be known. Is this a fair comment, Howard? Jon 26970 From: buddhatrue Date: Fri Nov 14, 2003 2:10pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Buddhaghosa(Suan): To Robert and Michael --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Michael Beisert" wrote: > Suan, Nina and all, There is more about the Visudhimagga which can be posted here in > the future. > Hi Michael, Thank you very much for posting this information. I find most interesting that Buddhaghosa actually fabricated a quote from the Buddha to prove one of his theories (but not surprised). Please post more of this chapter as you can. Your efforts are most appreciated. Metta, James 26971 From: suzakico Date: Fri Nov 14, 2003 5:12pm Subject: My fourth vipassana retreat FYI, here is the report from my recent 10-day vipassana retreat. http://www.geocities.com/suzakico/vipassanareport4.html Take care! Good day, good life! Kio 26972 From: Date: Fri Nov 14, 2003 7:24pm Subject: Vis. XIV 42 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) Ch. XIV 42. Some,(16) however, say that the eye is sensitivity of primary elements that have fire in excess, and that the ear, nose, and tongue are sensitivity of primary elements that have [respectively] air, earth, and water in excess, and that the body is that of all [four equally]. Others say that the eye is sensitivity of those that have fire in excess, and that the ear, nose, tongue, and body are [sensitivity] of those that have [respectively] aperture, air, water, and earth in excess. They should be asked to quote a sutta. They will certainly not find one. (16) ' "Some" are certain Mahasanghikas; for among these Vasudhamma says this: "In the eye fire is in excess; in the ear, air; in the nose, earth; in the tongue, water; in the body all are equal" ' (Pm.444). 26973 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Nov 14, 2003 9:17pm Subject: anapanasatisutta, I b We then read in the sutta what the Buddha said one month later, at the Komudi festival. This we should carefully consider so that we can understand to whom the explanation of anapanasati was addressed: 8] "Bhikkhus, this assembly is free from prattle, this assembly is free from chatter.[10] It consists purely of heartwood. Such is this Sangha of Bhikkhus, such is this assembly. Such an assembly as is worthy of gifts, worthy of hospitality, worthy of offerings, worthy of reverential salutation, an incomparable field of merit for the world -- Such is this assembly. Such an assembly that a small gift given to it becomes great and a great gift becomes greater -- such is this Sangha of Bhikkhus, such is this assembly. Such an assembly as is rare for the world to see -- such is this Sangha of Bhikkhus, such is this assembly. Such an assembly as would be worthy journeying many leagues with a travel-bag to see -- such is this Sangha of Bhikkhus, such is this assembly. 9] "In this Sangha of Bhikkhus, there are Bhikkhus who are arahats with taints destroyed, who have lived the holy life, done what had to be done, laid down the burden, reached the true goal, destroyed the fetters of being, and are completely liberated through final knowledge -- such Bhikkhus are there in this Sangha of Bhikkhus. 10] "In this Sangha of Bhikkhus there are Bhikkhus who, with the destruction of the five lower fetters, are due to reappear spontaneously (in the pure abodes) and there attain final Nibbana, without ever returning from that world -- such Bhikkhus are there in this Sangha of Bhikkhus. 11] "In this Sangha of Bhikkhus there are Bhikkhus who, with the destruction of three fetters and with the attenuation of lust, hate and delusion, are once-returners, returning once to this world to make an end of suffering -- such Bhikkhus are there in this Sangha of Bhikkhus. 12] "In this Sangha of Bhikkhus there are Bhikkhus who, with the destruction of the three fetters, are stream-enterers, no longer subject to perdition, bound [for deliverance], headed for enlightenment -- such Bhikkhus are there in this sangha of Bhikkhus. 13] "In this Sangha of Bhikkhus there are Bhikkhus who abide devoted to the development of the four foundations of mindfulness[11] -- such Bhikkhus are there in this Sangha of Bhikkhus. In this Sangha of Bhikkhus there are Bhikkhus who abide devoted to the four right kinds of strivings (efforts). . . of the four bases for spiritual power. . . of the five faculties. . . of the five powers. . . of the seven enlightenment factors. . . of the Noble Eightfold Path -- such Bhikkhus are there in this Sangha of Bhikkhus 14] "In this Sangha of Bhikkhus there are Bhikkhus who abide devoted to the development of loving-kindness. . . of compassion. . . of appreciative joy. . . of equanimity. . . of the meditation of foulness. . . of the perception of impermanence - - such Bhikkhus are there in this Sangha of Bhikkhus. In this Sangha of Bhikkhus there are Bhikkhus who abide devoted to the development of mindfulness of breathing. ******* The Co explains that all these were meditation subjects the monks were very interested in. In the sutta where it is stated: they dwell devoted to the four foundations of mindfulness... the noble eightfold Path, there is reference to the thirtyseven factors of enlightenment. The Co explains about the factors of enlightenment, bodhipakkhiya dhammas, that these are lokiya (not lokuttara, that is, those arising when enlightenment is attained) and lokuttara. It states that they are lokiya for the monks who develop vipassana, insight. In the sutta we read about the perception of impermanence. The Co explains that here insight, vipassana, is meant by sa~n~naa, perception. N: we can compare here the use of the word sanna: we find in the texts at times atta-sanna, perception of self, and anatta-sanna, perception of non-self. We read in the Co. that the monks were very interested in anapana sati. That is why the Buddha dealt with the other meditation subjects in short, but with mindfulness of breathing in detail. The Co now refers to the Visuddhimagga for details about this subject. ****** 26974 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Nov 14, 2003 9:17pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Buddhaghosa(Suan): To Robert and Michael Dear Suan, It is very kind to offer this opportunity to all who have questions and doubts about Buddhaghosa's works. Nina. op 14-11-2003 15:47 schreef abhidhammika op suanluzaw@b...: > Like Nina, I also welcome anyone - who found any inaccuracies or any > inconsistencies with the Buddha's teachings in Buddhaghosa's standard > commentaries - to present them here. I will undertake thorough > investigations into them and write academic replies. > > All I ask is Be Specific, Give References either in Section numbers > or the original Pali Passages. > > Without being able to provide such specific details, any criticism of > Buddhaghosa would be the wrong speech (Micchaavaacaa), thereby > deviating from the Noble Eightfold Path. 26975 From: Date: Fri Nov 14, 2003 6:13pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Act of consciousness Hi, Jon - In a message dated 11/14/03 3:56:03 PM Eastern Standard Time, jonoabb@y... writes: > Again, you choose to emphasise an aspect (inseparability/mutual > dependence) that is not the primary focus of the suttas. It seems > you see the fact of mutual dependence as making it not possible for > the component aspects to have their own characteristic or, if they > do, for that characteristic to be known. Is this a fair comment, > Howard? > ========================= I don't think so.They are definitely distinguishable,and they are distinguishable on the basis of their characteristics. I don't deny this at all. I simple say that they never occur on their own, and that is what I mean by their being inseparable. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 26976 From: Date: Fri Nov 14, 2003 7:01pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Act of consciousness In a message dated 11/14/2003 11:15:00 PM Pacific Standard Time, upasaka@a... writes: > Hi, Jon - > > In a message dated 11/14/03 3:56:03 PM Eastern Standard Time, > jonoabb@y... writes: > > >Again, you choose to emphasise an aspect (inseparability/mutual > >dependence) that is not the primary focus of the suttas. It seems > >you see the fact of mutual dependence as making it not possible for > >the component aspects to have their own characteristic or, if they > >do, for that characteristic to be known. Is this a fair comment, > >Howard? > > > ========================= > I don't think so.They are definitely distinguishable,and they are > distinguishable on the basis of their characteristics. I don't deny this at > all. I > simple say that they never occur on their own, and that is what I mean by > their being inseparable. > > With metta, > Howard > Hi Jon and Howard 'Mutual Dependence' is the primary focus of the suttas IMO; in-so-much as it is used to bring about freedom from suffering. Sariputta said... "He who sees the Dhamma sees Dependent Origination, he who sees Dependent Origination sees the Dhamma." That statement clearly shows the primacy of mutual dependence. In order to understand the Dhamma we need to use a deluded mind that is in the habit of seeing things as having their own characteristics. Things actually do not have their own characteristics... Hence they are empty and selfless. The mind 'turns away' and is liberated from objects/conditioned-phenomena as part of the enlightenment process. As long as the mind is indulging in objects/conditioned-phenomena, mentality is on the deluded side of 'the coin.' Such indulgence is a necessary evil during insight-development ... that needs to be gradually overcome. Seeing things as having their own intrinsic natures locks one into a deluded viewpoint until it is overcome. TG 26977 From: gazita2002 Date: Sat Nov 15, 2003 1:29am Subject: Re: [dsg] Act of consciousness Dear TG. I'm wondering what you are saying here about the 'mind', --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, TGrand458@a... wrote: > In a message dated 11/14/2003 11:15:00 PM Pacific Standard Time, > upasaka@a... writes: > > > Hi, Jon - > > > > In a message dated 11/14/03 3:56:03 PM Eastern Standard Time, > > jonoabb@y... writes: > > > > >Again, you choose to emphasise an aspect (inseparability/mutual > > >dependence) that is not the primary focus of the suttas. It seems > > >you see the fact of mutual dependence as making it not possible for > > >the component aspects to have their own characteristic or, if they > > >do, for that characteristic to be known. Is this a fair comment, > > >Howard? > > > > > Snip..snip > > > > The mind 'turns away' and is liberated from objects/conditioned- phenomena as > part of the enlightenment process. As long as the mind is indulging in > objects/conditioned-phenomena, mentality is on the deluded side of 'the coin.' Such > indulgence is a necessary evil during insight-development ... that needs to > be gradually overcome. Seeing things as having their own intrinsic natures > locks one into a deluded viewpoint until it is overcome. > > TG Azita; You say the mind 'turns away' and is liberated, and I'm wondering what you mean by 'mind'. As I understand, the mind is included in these conditioned phenomena. Maybe you could explain how you see 'mind'? Patience, courage and good cheer, Azita. 26978 From: Star Kid Date: Sat Nov 15, 2003 3:06am Subject: Reply to James James: Hi! Thank you for your letters to me. They were interesting and I learnt a lot! Anyway, just to tell ya, I have received my grade report, and for this quarter I have got As for my science and honors algebra, B pluses more L.A., Chinese, and P.E., and an A minus for my Social Studies. The teachers also said that I improved! Anyway, looking forward to your next letter. Anyway, can you give me some kind of advice about how I should keep up the good work and feel good about my teachers? Is compassion seeing someone in a good way? Philip 26979 From: Star Kid Date: Sat Nov 15, 2003 3:07am Subject: Buddhist questions Dear James, Thank you for answering my questions! well, I have a a few new ones. 1.How is the mind of the Buddha like? ( I mean like how he taught the Buddhist) 2.Did the Buddha tell his people not to communicate with bad spirits? 3.What language does the Buddha communicate in? That's all Metta, Janice 26980 From: Sukinderpal Singh Narula Date: Sat Nov 15, 2003 3:34am Subject: Re: Dhamma-vinaya Hi Azita, I am guessing that my qs were not proper for Victor. But I am glad that my post otherwise, has conditioned some useful reflection on your part. > > of Abhidhamma that its study deals with "present realities". And > > this I think, is more important that anything else. It does not > > matter what the labels are used, as long as they lead to `what can > > be observed in the moment'. And even if it is still only theory, > > because accumulated panna is not strong enough to > > condition `practice', this theory makes more sense than anything > > else I have ever encountered. > > > I understand by this comment Sukin, that practice is only a > momentary event, at the moment when Panna arises. Is that what you > are suggesting here? Yes. And isn't the world just this momentary rise and fall? And yet we often behave as though it lasts and lies there waiting for us to go and experience it, which is the basis of my comment below on `misdirected thoughts'. When we talk about `formal practices' and at the same time talk about the tilakkhana and conditioned nature of realities, I think we could be contradicting ourselves. Besides, isn't `enlightenment' for each of the stages of the ariyans, just one citta moment, and that too, never to ever happening again!? > > In fact with this understanding in > > mind, I get the impression increasingly, that to think in terms > > of `doing' something for future results would be from `wrong > > thinking', `misdirected thoughts'. > > > > Another good reminder for me, that there is no 'me' to do anything > anyway. Any attempt to have more understanding, is just 'me' > wanting, lobha again. And this is just one face of lobha; however I think it is quite important to know this particular one, as it concerns with and hinges upon right/wrong view. I feel that my own understanding being so fragile, and that even if moments of satipatthana never occur, `pariyatti' should be my sole concern. Imagine if one hadn't heard about silabattaparamasa, about whispering lobha, about nama/rupa being objects of satipatthana, wouldn't we all have been so happy with watered down versions of Buddhism? And then in basic outlook how different would this have been when compared to other religions? I think very little. But of course this is happening all over, and soon the real dhamma would be lost anyway. :-/ > I think that weak understanding is very natural, unless there are > accumulations for strong understanding, of course. I think of small > children who are just learning to walk, they stand up, they fall > down; wobble,wobble - fall down again. > Begin again, how can we know how much wisdom we have, how far we > have come, how far there is to go? Excellent reminder Azita, incidentally I have these past few weeks been reflecting on this aspect of experience too. I was thinking about how we tend to `get it wrong' much of the time, and at others, we are caught in other reactions to the stimulus through the six senses. There would be moments of discouragement, and then I would be reminded of the fact that it is all `conditioned', that this is just how it is supposed to be. Are we expecting to have more sati and panna than our accumulations allow? Yes, like children learning to walk we are! We are so fortunate to be amongst those who have gone further than us. :-) Estimating `how far we have come', even such thinking is conditioned, but is it particularly useful? With sati, such thoughts can condition calm if at the same time it conditions Saddha. However, it is mostly done with `attachment' to self and progress. In any case if we are honest, I think we will see that akusala conditions far out weighs the kusala. But there is never any reason not to prefer having patience, courage and good cheer. ;-)). Thanks Azita. Metta, Sukin. 26981 From: abhidhammika Date: Sat Nov 15, 2003 5:16am Subject: [dsg] Re: Buddhaghosa(Suan): To Nina, Robert and Michael Dear Michael, Nina, Robert K, Sarah and all How are you? I haven't examined the whole post, but I found the following mistake as soon as I read the post. "However, there can be many paths (magga) leading to that one goal (ekayana)." Michael, are you sure it was written by Profossor David Kalupahana? If so, he did not understand even a very simple Pali like "ekaayaano". As such, it is already very doubtful, even now, if Prefessor Kalupahana would be able to understand standard commentaries written in advanced Pali, often very convoluted. Ekaayaano does not mean "one goal". Ekaayaano means "one path". Therefore, the very statement "there can be many paths (magga) leading to that one goal (ekayana)" was already wrong. It must be Professor Kalupahana who now seems to be distorting the Buddha's teachings. I will write more as I read your post along on later occasions. Frankly speaking, though, I do not want to waste my time on such unacademic, careless and poorly written piece of work. With regards, Suan http://www.bodhiology.org --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Michael Beisert" wrote: > Suan, Nina and all, > > >Like Nina, I also welcome anyone - who found any inaccuracies or any > >inconsistencies with the Buddha's teachings in Buddhaghosa's standard > >commentaries - to present them here. I will undertake thorough > >investigations into them and write academic replies. > > Since many of you asked for specifics, there you have it. Below is a > reproduction of a part of the chapter on Buddhaghosa which contains some of > the critics on the Visudhimagga. > > Metta > Michael > 26982 From: Kenneth Ong Date: Sat Nov 15, 2003 7:39am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Accumulations - for comment/Anapanasati Hi James > James: I don't think that you should 'swallow' anything when you > don't, for yourself, know the answer. The Buddha also taught this. > Until I know for sure what he wrote and why he wrote it, I am not > going to believe that mindfulness of breathing is just for Buddhas > and those close to being Buddhas. My understanding from the sutta > is > that it is for everyone. Nina stated that that particular sutta> was > directed to a certain group of people. I want some proof of > that...it isn't in the sutta and that doesn't correspond with the > sutta contents. Frankly, I think this is all a smoke screen to > justify a choice to not practice meditation, to just study dhamma > instead. Because the Buddha gave oral lessons and didn't require> all > of the monks to memorize them all verbatim, I don't see how one could > assume he taught 'study' as a path to enlightenment. Practice is the path he taught. k: I think it is very difficult to disprove that mindfullness of the breath is for certain group of pple bc most of the sati suttas did not start on describing the group of pple (except maybe for mindfullness of breathing sutta). Notwithstanding, I am always open for different opinions and views on the sutta,. As I say again, this sutta does not emphasis on meditation, bc meditation is not the way, it needs insight. Its like both legs. Pse look at this kimsuka sutta, esp the last two para where it says about samatha and insight as a swift pair of messenger. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn35-204.html k: Maybe at this point of time, I like to clarify that Abhidamma is not just a scholaristic view of the dhammas which I have in the first instance when I first met it last two years ago. Abhidhamma has it strength in looking at dhamma with the anatta and anicca perspective which cannot be seen or match in any else in any Buddhist book that I have read. Its practicality is only known when we start using it. It is useless without practise bc it was meant for practise. Let me emphasis it again and again, Abhidamma is meant to help us to practise and not otherwise. I am one living example of the fruits of Abhidamma study that provide insight into many of my studies of Buddhist even though I have to admit that I study less than others. In fact I not an avid Abhidhamm studist (in fact I am quite lazy, I rely mostly on pple here to tell me). k: I think the fact that many Abhidammaist here wrote long stories and making so many references it gives us an impression that they are scholars rather than practioners. I think this is not a very fair impression on them. In fact I think they practise more than me. I got more aksuala cittas than all of them combined together, I am not joking bc I got too many worries, too many duties. I hope one day I see the urgency to practise more vigorously, for now I am just having a sun tan. I believe these Abdhidammaist here are farmers who harvest for their own food while I am just the consumer. k: Another impression of Abdhammaist study, is that its interpretations are sometimes very different from the mindset that we derived from our understanding through the study of sutta. I think it is natural, bc we always have our so called comfort arena. If those I find those not acceptable, I will just leave it while those acceptable, I learn it. Everyone of us here got our own liking of practise, the Abdhammist here is just pointing out their position which is they think is the correct practise so that one does not go round and round doing the incorrect ones. It is up to us to accept it or not. They are here to share their knowlegde of correct practise in their own perspective. In my personal opinion, to be a true Abdhammaist, one also have to be very conversant with the suttas. kind rgds Ken O 26983 From: Michael Beisert Date: Sat Nov 15, 2003 7:40am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Buddhaghosa(Suan): To Nina, Robert and Michael Hello Suan, See comments below... >From: "abhidhammika" >Reply-To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com >To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com >Subject: [dsg] Re: Buddhaghosa(Suan): To Nina, Robert and Michael >Date: Sat, 15 Nov 2003 13:16:15 -0000 > > > >Dear Michael, Nina, Robert K, Sarah and all > >How are you? I am doing well, thank you. Hope you are also doing well and not too much upset by my message. > >I haven't examined the whole post, but I found the following mistake >as soon as I read the post. Read the whole post to get to the kernel of his argument. Don't get lost in one word which I am not sure either if you are right or not. > >"However, there can be many paths (magga) leading to that one goal >(ekayana)." > >Michael, are you sure it was written by Profossor David Kalupahana? > Yes I am sure. And you should be more carefull with your language. Bad karma you know :) >If so, he did not understand even a very simple Pali like "ekaayaano". I don't know about this. But maybe you don't know it either (don't take offense but I don't know you). Anyway this is not a key issue. But if you are just trying to find a reason to reject what he is saying, then go ahead and be happy. > >As such, it is already very doubtful, even now, if Prefessor >Kalupahana would be able to understand standard commentaries written >in advanced Pali, often very convoluted. > >Ekaayaano does not mean "one goal". > >Ekaayaano means "one path". > >Therefore, the very statement "there can be many paths (magga) >leading to that one goal (ekayana)" was already wrong. So, you don't find in the Visuddhimagga "at least six different ways of attaining the goal: 1. Insight (panna) 2. Contemplation and insight ljhana and panna) 3. Action (kamma) 4. Morality or virtue (sua) 5. Mindfulness (sati) 6. Right effort (samma vayama), etc.12" > >It must be Professor Kalupahana who now seems to be distorting the >Buddha's teachings. Keep in mind that we are not talking about the Buddha's teachings, we are talking about commentaries, not suttas. > >I will write more as I read your post along on later occasions. > >Frankly speaking, though, I do not want to waste my time on such >unacademic, careless and poorly written piece of work. Then just let it be, but franklly the key issue in Kalupahana's argument is the inclusion in Buddhaghosa's writings of essencialist concepts which cannot be found in the suttas. If you pay carefull attention you will notice those essencialist ideas creeping up in this very same list. > >With regards, Metta > >Suan Michael > >http://www.bodhiology.org > > > >--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Michael Beisert" > wrote: > > Suan, Nina and all, > > > > >Like Nina, I also welcome anyone - who found any inaccuracies or >any > > >inconsistencies with the Buddha's teachings in Buddhaghosa's >standard > > >commentaries - to present them here. I will undertake thorough > > >investigations into them and write academic replies. > > > > Since many of you asked for specifics, there you have it. Below is >a > > reproduction of a part of the chapter on Buddhaghosa which contains >some of > > the critics on the Visudhimagga. > > > > > > > > Metta > > Michael > >> > 26984 From: buddhatrue Date: Sat Nov 15, 2003 7:46am Subject: Re: Buddhaghosa(Suan): To Nina, Robert and Michael --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "abhidhammika" wrote: > > > Dear Michael, Nina, Robert K, Sarah and all > > How are you? > > I haven't examined the whole post, but I found the following mistake > as soon as I read the post. Hi Suan, Wow! I think you are jumping to premature conclusions. Manuscripts for books go through many hands before they actually become books. There can be changes to the manuscript that the author didn't write, especially if they are foreign words that copy editors, print editors, and typeset people aren't familiar with. One example of the incorrect Pali word used for a translation doesn't really prove anything about the scholarly ability of Kalupahana. What about the actual ideas that he presents? I hope that you don't drop this because you made a promise. Michael went to all the trouble to type it all out and you dismiss the whole thing because of one minor word…that doesn't seem fair or compassionate to me. Metta, James Ps. I noticed that you spelled professor "Prefessor" at one point in this post. Everyone can make mistakes, even you. 26985 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sat Nov 15, 2003 10:21am Subject: Re: [dsg]transference of merit. Dear Sarah, Yes, I remembered that especially. That is why I add, saying, "and for all who can appreciate it." We do not know who can notice and appreciate what we are doing and dedicating. But devas are also referred to in words of dedication, so they may know as well. I take it this way: dana is also letting others, no matter in our surroundings here, or passed to another plane, know about our kusala so that they can also have kusala cittas. As Rob M enumerated: 6. Pattidana – transference of merit 7. Pattanumodana – rejoicing in others' merit The transference of merit we should take in the right sense. Patti can mean: merit and also share. We can "share" in a way the kusala we perform. We read in the Gradual Sayings IV, 62, about Nanda's mother. She sang, "The Way to the Beyond"and the deva Vessavana heard her. She said, let this hymn be my gift of greeting. The Deva asked her to declare her offering of the meal on the next morning to the Order of monks to be his. We read that she said after the meal:"...let all the merit (pu~n~na) in this giving be to the happiness of the royal deva Vessavana!" In the co. the word pattidana is used. It is also explained that there are three moments of giving: the kusala before, during and after the gift, when you recollect your kusala. Thus here we see that there can be dedication of one's kusala to a deva. You express your intention and in this way the deva can have kusala citta with appreciation. Shall we say, kusala is contaminating? See also Expositor I, p. 210. When we share merit, there is no decrease for us, there is increase. It explains that one can say, "Let this share be for such an one!" or, "Let it be for all beings!" We can specify or we can share with all beings who can appreciate it. Nina. op 14-11-2003 08:08 schreef Sarah op sarahdhhk@y...: > But, master Gotama, if that deceased > relative has not reappeared in that place, and if other relatives and kin > of his have not reappeared in that place, who makes use of that > almsgiving? - It is impossible, Divine, it cannot happen, that that place > should be empty of relatives of his in this long extent [of the round of > rebirths]; and furthermore, no giver ever lacked the fruit (A.v.269-71)" 26986 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sat Nov 15, 2003 10:21am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: citta, cetasika, rupa. Hi James, op 14-11-2003 09:45 schreef buddhatrue op buddhatrue@y...: > According to the Abhidhamma there are mind states that arise separate > from rupa and are not dependent on rupa: they are > termed `cetasikas'. They are supposed to be mental factors dependent > on predominately consciousness, not exclusively rupa (I don't believe > in them). N: Feeling is a mental factor, cetasika, arising with citta. It is one khandha, aggregate. Volition is another cetasika arising with citta, and it is included in the khandha of formations. Five khandhas arising and falling away, one is rupa, materiality, four are mental: one is consciousness, and three are mental factors, certasikas. In this human plane citta and cetasikas are dependent on rupa. When we speak of citta we also mean cetasikas that accompany citta, these are closely associated. Thus, when you are seeing, it means seeing-consciousness +the coarising cetasikas depend on the eyebase which is rupa. They are dependent on eyesense. The same in the case of hearing. There are many ways mentality conditions materiality and vice versa. When you dislike something there is unpleasant feeling together with consciousness that dislikes. Citta+cetasikas condition the facial expression, materiality. Nina. 26987 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sat Nov 15, 2003 10:21am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Buddhaghosa(Suan): To Robert and Michael Dear Michael, Thank you for the trouble. When you post more, could you post smaller sections, otherwise we get lost. It also makes it easier to discuss matters. Thank you, Nina. op 14-11-2003 20:49 schreef Michael Beisert op mbeisert@h...: > Since many of you asked for specifics, there you have it. Below is a > reproduction of a part of the chapter on Buddhaghosa which contains some of > the critics on the Visudhimagga. 26988 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sat Nov 15, 2003 10:21am Subject: Vis. Tiika 36, part II Tiika 36 Part II (omission of preceding section) Some points from the omitted part are partly the same as Dispeller of Delusion Ch II, Suttanta Division: jiivaa, tongue, it evokes life, thus it is tongue. (N: word association between jivita, life and jivaa, tongue. We must eat in order to live). Body: ³It is the origin of vile states, subject to cankers; origin being the place of arising. (Kucchitaana.m saasavadhammaana.m aayo uppatti.t.thaananti kaayo). Beings who enjoy pleasant tangible object are also after sexual intercourse (Tena hi pho.t.thabbasukha.m assaadentaa sattaa methunampi sevanti.) Relevant text of Vis. 36: visible datum, sound, odour, flavour, feminity faculty, masculinity faculty, life faculty, heart-basis; Vis. 36. ruupa.m, saddo, gandho, raso, itthindriya.m, purisindriya.m, jiivitindriya.m, hadayavatthu... Tiika 36 text: words: ruupayati: it makes visible vikaara: change va.nna: colour, appearance aapajjati: get into, produce, exhibit aneka: diverse. pakaaseti: to make known apaaka.ta: unknown pa.ticchanna: concealed pesu~n~na (n): slander Text: Va.n.navikaara.m aapajjamaana.m hadaya"ngatabhaava.m ruupayatiiti ruupa.m, iva dassetiiti attho. It makes visible a change of appearance that manifests the state of mind, and thus it is visible object, * as it is shown, is the meaning. Anekatthattaa vaa dhaatuuna.m pakaasanattho eva ruupasaddo da.t.thabbo. Or the term visible object should be seen as having the purpose of clarifying the diversity of the elements. Sappatiiti saddo, udaahariiyati, sakehi vaa paccayehi sappiiyati sotavi~n~neyyabhaava.m upaniiyatiiti attho. It is emitted and thus it is sound, it is uttered, or by its own conditions it is emitted, it brings along its nature of audibility, is the meaning. Gandhayatiiti gandho, attano vatthu.m suucayati .m ³ida.m sugandha.m, duggandhan²ti pakaaseti It is smelt, thus it is odour; it betrays its own basis that is not known, it makes manifest ³this is a good smell, this is a bad smell², pa.ticchanna.m vaa pupphaphalaadi.m ³idamettha atthii²ti pesu~n~na.m karonta.m viya hotiiti attho. or it makes known what is concealed with regard to flowers and fruits, and so on, saying, ³It is this here,² just like the action of slander, is the meaning. Rasanti ta.m sattaati raso, asaadentiiti attho. Beings taste it, thus, it is taste; they enjoy it, is the meaning. Itthiyaava indriya.m itthindriya.m, tathaa purisindriya.m. The faculty of a woman is feminity faculty, and likewise there is masculinity faculty. Jiivanti tena sahajaatadhammaati jiivita.m, tadeva indriya.m jiivitindriya.m. By this the conascent realities live, thus it is life, and moreover, it is a faculty, life faculty **. Hadaya~nca ta.m vatthu ca, hadayassa vaa manovi~n~naa.nassa vatthu hadayavatthu. Heart and that base, or the base of the heart for mind-consciousness is the heartbase ***. **** English: Or the term visible object should be seen as having the purpose of clarifying the diversity of the elements. It is emitted and thus it is sound, it is uttered, or by its own conditions it is emitted, it brings along its nature of audibility, is the meaning. It is smelt, thus it is odour; it betrays its own basis that is not known, it makes manifest ³this is a good smell, this is a bad smell², or it makes known what is concealed with regard to flowers and fruits, and so on, saying, ³It is this here,² just like the action of slander, is the meaning. Beings taste it, thus, it is taste; they enjoy it, is the meaning. The faculty of a woman is feminity faculty, and likewise there is masculinity faculty. By this the conascent realities live, thus it is life, and moreover, it is a faculty, life faculty **. Heart and that base, or the base of the heart for mind-consciousness is the heartbase ***. _______ * A word association of ruupa, visible object and ruupayati: to make visible. When someone has a change in the colour of his face, it shows what is in his mind. **This ruupa is only in a living body. It is produced by kamma. ** This is not in the enumeration of rúpas of the Dhammasangani, but it is mentioned in the Pa.t.thana Book of the Abhidhamma as²that ruupa², being the base for cittas other than the five sense-cognitions. ***** Nina. 26989 From: buddhatrue Date: Sat Nov 15, 2003 11:02am Subject: Re: citta, cetasika, rupa. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > Hi James, > op 14-11-2003 09:45 schreef buddhatrue op buddhatrue@y...: > > > According to the Abhidhamma there are mind states that arise separate > > from rupa and are not dependent on rupa: they are > > termed `cetasikas'. They are supposed to be mental factors dependent > > on predominately consciousness, not exclusively rupa (I don't believe > > in them). > N: Feeling is a mental factor, cetasika, arising with citta. It is one > khandha, aggregate. Volition is another cetasika arising with citta, and it > is included in the khandha of formations. Five khandhas arising and falling > away, one is rupa, materiality, four are mental: one is consciousness, and > three are mental factors, certasikas. In this human plane citta and > cetasikas are dependent on rupa. When we speak of citta we also mean > cetasikas that accompany citta, these are closely associated. Thus, when you > are seeing, it means seeing-consciousness +the coarising cetasikas depend on > the eyebase which is rupa. They are dependent on eyesense. The same in the > case of hearing. > There are many ways mentality conditions materiality and vice versa. > When you dislike something there is unpleasant feeling together with > consciousness that dislikes. Citta+cetasikas condition the facial > expression, materiality. > Nina. Hi Nina, First, you state all of this as if it is fact; it isn't fact, it is theory. I don't agree with this theory. Here is a summary of my thoughts on the subject: I do not believe that feeling is a single mental factor that arises with thoughts. This is an out of date and old fashioned idea. Feeling is a physical response in the body, triggered by neurotransmitters in the brain, leading to physiological reactions in the body, which stem from thoughts. There can be subsequent thoughts about the feeling, but the feeling itself doesn't originate in the brain…it comes from the reactions of the body. The function of the brain is a tool to guarantee survival of the body. Through evolution, the brain has evolved that certain thoughts must trigger certain feelings that trigger certain actions. All of these thoughts and feelings are focused on survival. Consciousness, however, isn't focused on survival and isn't limited to the functions of the brain. Consciousness is fully aware. It is because of this that the watcher can become the watched and that Nibbana is possible. Metta, James 26990 From: Larry Date: Sat Nov 15, 2003 11:10am Subject: Re: Vis. XIV 42 "They should be asked to quote a sutta. They will certainly not find one." Hi all, The implicit question here is how is derived matter (senses and sense objects) derived from primary elements. Sutta doesn't say. Buddhaghosa ultimately decides on "kamma" as an answer. This essentially means the question is unanswerable with any authority because only the Buddha understands the mysteries of kamma result. One slight hiccup, however, is that sutta also doesn't say anything about the inseparability of the 4 primary elements. In fact we are advised to identify each primary individually as in the Satipatthana Sutta. This raises the further question, if the object of sense consciousness is a derivation of a _group_ of 4 primaries, is that derived matter also a group with essentially all 4 primaries incorporated into it? If so, when we hear, for example, do we "hear" all 4 primaries (earth, water, fire & air)? Also, with a group as an object of consciousness, doesn't that open the door to a group of groups being an object of consciousness? Larry --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@w... wrote: > "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) Ch. XIV > > 42. Some,(16) however, say that the eye is sensitivity of primary > elements that have fire in excess, and that the ear, nose, and tongue > are sensitivity of primary elements that have [respectively] air, earth, > and water in excess, and that the body is that of all [four equally]. > Others say that the eye is sensitivity of those that have fire in > excess, and that the ear, nose, tongue, and body are [sensitivity] of > those that have [respectively] aperture, air, water, and earth in > excess. They should be asked to quote a sutta. They will certainly not > find one. > > (16) ' "Some" are certain Mahasanghikas; for among these Vasudhamma says > this: "In the eye fire is in excess; in the ear, air; in the nose, > earth; in the tongue, water; in the body all are equal" ' (Pm.444). 26991 From: Larry Date: Sat Nov 15, 2003 11:36am Subject: Re: [dsg] Act of consciousness --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, TGrand458@a... wrote: Things actually do not have their own characteristics... Hence they are empty and selfless. Hi TG, It seems to me, if there is emptiness there has to be something that is non-empty, a container. If all there is is a big zero the Buddha wouldn't experience anything at all, not even emptiness. Sense consciousness is empty of hatred and desire. That is a path _and_ a fruition, IMO. Larry 26992 From: Date: Sat Nov 15, 2003 7:58am Subject: Re: [dsg] Act of consciousness In a message dated 11/15/2003 11:36:49 AM Pacific Standard Time, LBIDD@w... writes: > It seems to me, if there is emptiness there has to be something that > is non-empty, a container. If all there is is a big zero the Buddha > wouldn't experience anything at all, not even emptiness. Sense > consciousness is empty of hatred and desire. That is a path _and_ a > fruition, IMO. > > Larry > Hi Larry Emptiness is defined in the Suttas as -- "no-self." It does not mean a "big zero." TG 26993 From: Date: Sat Nov 15, 2003 8:08am Subject: Re: [dsg] Act of consciousness In a message dated 11/15/2003 1:30:08 AM Pacific Standard Time, gazita2002@y... writes: > Azita; You say the mind 'turns away' and is liberated, and I'm > wondering what you mean by 'mind'. As I understand, the mind is > included in these conditioned phenomena. Maybe you could explain > how you see 'mind'? > > Patience, courage and good cheer, > Azita. > Hi Azita The mind is a "conditioned instrument" that has the capability, as I understand it, to "uncondition 'itself'." Hence Nibbana is described as the end of perception and feeling, ie, mental processing. TG 26994 From: nordwest Date: Sat Nov 15, 2003 10:50am Subject: Re: [dsg] Nina / transference of merit. Dear Nina, try not to become attached to orders in rituals etc. Anyorder you make is the right one. There will be a point on the path, when we all have to burn all buddhist texts, stop reading, and stop being a buddhist, to become finally a buddha. Any dualism, "right order-worng order" would become an obstruction to realizing complete emptiness. Gassho, Thomas nina van gorkom wrote: Dear Sarah, Yes, I remembered that especially. That is why I add, saying, "and for all who can appreciate it." We do not know who can notice and appreciate what we are doing and dedicating. But devas are also referred to in words of dedication, so they may know as well. I take it this way: dana is also letting others, no matter in our surroundings here, or passed to another plane, know about our kusala so that they can also have kusala cittas. As Rob M enumerated: 6. Pattidana – transference of merit 7. Pattanumodana – rejoicing in others' merit The transference of merit we should take in the right sense. Patti can mean: merit and also share. We can "share" in a way the kusala we perform. We read in the Gradual Sayings IV, 62, about Nanda's mother. She sang, "The Way to the Beyond"and the deva Vessavana heard her. She said, let this hymn be my gift of greeting. The Deva asked her to declare her offering of the meal on the next morning to the Order of monks to be his. We read that she said after the meal:"...let all the merit (pu~n~na) in this giving be to the happiness of the royal deva Vessavana!" In the co. the word pattidana is used. It is also explained that there are three moments of giving: the kusala before, during and after the gift, when you recollect your kusala. Thus here we see that there can be dedication of one's kusala to a deva. You express your intention and in this way the deva can have kusala citta with appreciation. Shall we say, kusala is contaminating? See also Expositor I, p. 210. When we share merit, there is no decrease for us, there is increase. It explains that one can say, "Let this share be for such an one!" or, "Let it be for all beings!" We can specify or we can share with all beings who can appreciate it. Nina. op 14-11-2003 08:08 schreef Sarah op sarahdhhk@y...: > But, master Gotama, if that deceased > relative has not reappeared in that place, and if other relatives and kin > of his have not reappeared in that place, who makes use of that > almsgiving? - It is impossible, Divine, it cannot happen, that that place > should be empty of relatives of his in this long extent [of the round of > rebirths]; and furthermore, no giver ever lacked the fruit (A.v.269-71)" 26995 From: nordwest Date: Sat Nov 15, 2003 11:30am Subject: 16th November, Holy day reminder Lord Buddhas descent from Tushita is on Sunday 16th November. This is one of the most holy days in the buddhist calendar. it is a good day to take precepts. Also any positive action performed for other peoples benefit will be more meritorious. If you have the opportunity - join other buddhists in pujas or special practices. If on your own - dedicate the day to your practice if at all possible. An old tradition tells us that shortly before his final rebirth the Bodhisattva spent his life as a god in Tusita (the Heaven of the Contented). Surveying the world from Tusita, the Bodhisattva saw the time had come for him to take a human birth and at last become a buddha; he saw that the "Middle Country" of the great continent of Jambudvipa (India) was the place in which to take birth, for its inhabitants would be receptive to his message. The Bodhisattva was conceived on the full moon night in July; that night his mother, Maya, dreamt that a white elephant carrying a white lotus in its trunk came and entered her womb through her right flank. 26996 From: buddhatrue Date: Sat Nov 15, 2003 1:55pm Subject: Re: Reply to James --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Star Kid wrote: > > James: > > Hi! Thank you for your letters to me. They were > interesting and I learnt a lot! Anyway, just to tell > ya, I have received my grade report, and for this > quarter I have got As for my science and honors > algebra, B pluses more L.A., Chinese, and P.E., and an > A minus for my Social Studies. The teachers also said > that I improved! Anyway, looking forward to your next > letter. > > Anyway, can you give me some kind of advice about how > I should keep up the good work and feel good about my > teachers? Is compassion seeing someone in a good way? > > Philip Hi Star Kid Philip! That is AMESOME!! I am really happy for you. See, I told you that you were bright. If you will just focus on what you can do, rather than worry about other people's evaluations of you, you will be able to keep up the good work. This time for you, when everything seems to be going great, you have good grades and the teacher's approval, is when you have to be really careful about your work habits and mental habits. You can start to believe that everything should stay this way, start to relax a bit, and may become terribly disappointed if things start to slide again. Things change, that is the rule of life-be mentally prepared for work to get harder and teacher's approval to not always be there. Don't re-live the past and don't worry about the future, stay focused on right now. Is all of your work completed right now? Are you doing what you should be doing right now? Always focus on right now—don't daydream about the past or the future. Yes, compassion is seeing someone in a good way. Have you ever played a video game? I bet you have. You know how most video games are about overcoming challenges, shooting at enemies, and trying not to get destroyed as you gather points in order to win the game? Well, most everyone looks at life this way also. They don't see other people as people; they see them as challenges, as potential enemies, who may do something to destroy them at any minute. Or they see them as fellow players, who are competing to win the game, and are therefore another type of threat. But the truth of the matter is that no one is playing a game, the game is playing us. The game of life is stopping us from seeing the truth. When you stop viewing people as potential threats, you develop compassion for them. Even if they don't like you, or say bad things about you, you don't care- you know that they are just stuck in the game. Philip, you worry that if anyone doesn't approve of your or criticizes you, you feel like you have lost points. You get upset because you don't want to lose the game. But the TRUTH isn't a game. Remember that and you will have compassion for everyone. Metta, James 26997 From: buddhatrue Date: Sat Nov 15, 2003 2:44pm Subject: Re: slow-witted Hi All, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nordwest > wrote: > > I would like to mention, that for me Victor posting was a very > important reminder, that even "social humbleness" can be an evil > deed, if it is not based on reality, but a mere lie. At least, this > was how I understood it. > > > > Gassho, > > Thomas > > > > buddhatrue wrote: > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "yu_zhonghao" > > wrote: > > > Hi all, > > > > > > I've seen some people characterize themselves and others as slow- > > > witted in their posts. I would suggest not to do that because: > > > > > > Hi Victor, > > > > I think that when it comes to recognizing/understanding dhamma, the > > characterization of `slow-witted' doesn't equal `stupid', as you > > suggest. A person can have a very high IQ and still not understand > > the dhamma…we were discussing a completely different matter from > > comparative intelligence. Therefore, your reasoning doesn't apply. > > > > Metta, James > > Hi Thomas, > > I believe that you and Victor are really making too much of this. > Take for example this information about the Taiwanese from the > Internet: > > It is considered very impolite to boast in Taiwan. Always make sure > to compliment people on anything that is worth noting. Conversely, > when receiving a compliment, you are expected to play down your > attributes and prowess. When someone compliments your language > ability, for example, have a standard response ready ("I really > should study more," or "It could be a lot better."). > http://www.jobmonkey.com/teaching/asia/html/customs_of_tawain.html > > Now, are you suggesting that all of the Taiwanese are committing > an `evil deed' when they do this? Isn't that a bit of hyperbole? I > see this a social custom and I don't believe it falls under the > category of lying. > > Metta, James Even though this thread is old, I came across a sutta during my sutta reading that applies. From the Anguttara Nikaya, 70. A Superior Person: "Further: even unasked, a superior person reveals his own faults, how much more so when asked. When asked, however, and obligated to reply to questions, he speaks of his own faults without omitting anything, without holding back, fully and in detail. He should be considered a superior person. Further: even when asked, a superior person does not reveal his own praiseworthy qualities, still less so when not asked. When asked, however, and obliged to reply to questions, he speaks of his own praiseworthy qualities with omissions and hesitatingly, incompletely and not in detail. He should be considered a superior person." Metta, James 26998 From: Date: Sat Nov 15, 2003 4:25pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Act of consciousness TG: "Emptiness is defined in the Suttas as -- "no-self." It does not mean a "big zero." " Hi TG, In the suttas emptiness is always defined as a nama or rupa with distinguishable characteristics (usually the characteristic of arising and falling away) is empty of some other dhamma, usually, but not always a concept such as permanence. If you say, in reality there are no characteristics, then what is empty of self? The only answer is that you are asserting that all experience is conceptual. This is an arguable point but I don't think it is in the suttas. Larry 26999 From: Date: Sat Nov 15, 2003 5:07pm Subject: Vis. XIV. 43 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) Ch. XIV 43. But some give as their reason that it is because these [several sensitivities] are [respectively] aided by visible data, etc., as qualities of fire, and so on.(17) They should be asked, 'But who has said that visible data, etc., are qualities of fire and so on? [445] For it is not possible to say of primary elements, which remain always inseparable,(18) that "This is a quality of this one, that is a quality of that one" '. ------------------ (17) ' "As qualities of fire, and so on": [aided] by visible data as the illuminating [quality] of heat, which is called lighting up; by sound [as a quality] of air, by odour [as a quality] of earth, by flavour [as a quality] of water called spittle--so according to the first theory [that of "others"] because they need to be assisted by such and such qualities of primaries: what is meant is that they have to be helped in apprehending visible data and so on. This theory holds that the quality is the ability of the eye, etc., to light up [respectively] visible data, etc., only when associated with the reasons that are their accessories consisting of light, etc., and aperture's state of decisive support for ear consciousness. Aperture is taken in due order, as are fire, etc., since it is absence of primaries. Or alternatively, when others intend that aperture is a quality of primaries, as visible data, etc., are, then the qualities of primaries are construable in their order thus: [aided] by visible data and light [as a quality] of fire, by sound [as a quality] of aperture called space, by odour [as a quality] of air, by flavour [as a quality] of water, by tangible data [as a quality] of earth' (Pm.445). (18) The four primaries are held to be inseparable and not to exist separate from each other; cf. quotation from the 'Ancients' in par.45. Pm. says: 'Excess is in capability, not in quantity, otherwise their inseparability would be illogical' (Pm.451).