30400 From: gazita2002 Date: Sat Feb 21, 2004 6:24pm Subject: Puzzlement over SN. Hello all and esp. SN corner dwellers, In the general intro. to Samyutta Nikaya, p48 B.Bodhi states: "It should be noted that in the Nikayas, namarupa does not include consciousness (vinnana). Consciousness is its condition, and the two are mutually dependent, like two sheaves of reeds leaning one against the other (II 114,17-19)" Firstly, I cannot figure out these numbers, what they refer to 'cos they don't seem to correspond to the numbering in the copy I have. Any suggestions anyone? Secondly, and I know he specifies with "....in the Nikayas..." but imvho, this whole paragraph could be misleading, by giving the impression that consciousness (vinnana) is out side namarupa. I understand that these two 'sheaves of reeds' are nama/rupa supporting each other and nama includes vinnana, be BB seems to be saying that nama/rupa and vinnana are the two reeds. Can anyone shed any light on this please?? It's a long, long way to Nibbana. Azita. 30401 From: nidive Date: Sat Feb 21, 2004 7:13pm Subject: Re: distinction between nama and rupa. Hi Howard, > This issue of distinguishing nama from rupa strikes me as being much > ado about nothing (or, if not "nothing", then at least "not much"!). Might it not occur to you that there are people who have difficulty distinguishing rupa from nama? Regards, Swee Boon 30402 From: Andrew Date: Sat Feb 21, 2004 7:36pm Subject: Re: Puzzlement over SN. Hi Azita You wrote: > It's a long, long way to Nibbana. A: That's true, but I cannot say categorically of you (or any other person) that "Nibbana will not be attained in the next moment". The conditions (of which I am totally ignorant) may all come together for you! Nibbana could be a moment away! The same goes for everyone on and off DSG. This thought makes the world look a different place, doesn't it? Best Wishes Andrew 30403 From: Date: Sat Feb 21, 2004 8:01pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Puzzlement over SN. Hi Azita, A: "(II 114,17-19)" Firstly, I cannot figure out these numbers" L: Look on page 608. "II" is the book, "114" is the bracketed PTS page number, and "17-19" is the lines on that PTS page. Highly cryptic!!! It took forever to figure it out :-))) A: "Secondly, and I know he specifies with "....in the Nikayas..." but imvho, this whole paragraph could be misleading, by giving the impression that consciousness (vinnana) is out side namarupa. I understand that these two 'sheaves of reeds' are nama/rupa supporting each other and nama includes vinnana, be BB seems to be saying that nama/rupa and vinnana are the two reeds." L: The two sheaves are consciousness and namarupa. Consciousness is included in "nama" only in abhidhamma classifications. In the dependent arising formula consciousness is not included in nama. You could think of namarupa as body and personality, or body and identity (something like that), the basic DNA package. Because namarupa and consciousness are codependent, we might say sankhara conditions the arising of both, and both condition the arising of the 6 sense bases. But Nina might not like that:-) Larry 30404 From: Date: Sat Feb 21, 2004 3:19pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Puzzlement over SN. Hi, Azita - In a message dated 2/21/04 9:25:31 PM Eastern Standard Time, gazita2002@y... writes: > Secondly, and I know he specifies with "....in the Nikayas..." > but imvho, this whole paragraph could be misleading, by giving the > impression that consciousness (vinnana) is out side namarupa. I > understand that these two 'sheaves of reeds' are nama/rupa supporting > each other and nama includes vinnana, be BB seems to be saying that > nama/rupa and vinnana are the two reeds. > > Can anyone shed any light on this please?? > > ====================== I believe that attention is included in namarupa in place of consciousness. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 30405 From: Date: Sat Feb 21, 2004 3:22pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: distinction between nama and rupa. Hi, Swee Boon - In a message dated 2/21/04 10:23:41 PM Eastern Standard Time, nidive@y... writes: > Hi Howard, > > >This issue of distinguishing nama from rupa strikes me as being much > >ado about nothing (or, if not "nothing", then at least "not much"!). > > Might it not occur to you that there are people who have difficulty > distinguishing rupa from nama? --------------------------------------------------------- Howard: I would suspect precious few, and I would also suspect a cognitive disorder in such cases (greater, that is, than all worldlings have ;-). ------------------------------------------------------ > > Regards, > Swee Boon > =========================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 30406 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Sat Feb 21, 2004 8:22pm Subject: Re: the self... how?/Jack Hello Jack, Here is a verse from Dhammapada for consideration: 372: There's no jhana for one with no discernment, no discernment for one with no jhana. But one with both jhana & discernment: he's on the verge of Unbinding. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/khuddaka/dhp/25.html#372 Metta, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jackhat1@a... wrote: [snip] In my and most senior > Buddhist teacher's view, jhanas are not necessary but helpful for insight/wisdom. > In any case, I have never said that jhanas are necessary for enlightenment. [snip] > > jack 30407 From: Date: Sat Feb 21, 2004 3:52pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Points of Controversy Hi again, michael - You had written: >M> aybe it wasn't clear from my message but the interpretation that real and > > >ultimate means self dependent comes from the commentary to the Kathavatthu, > > >therefore I assume this is the 'official' interpretation for the meaning of > > >real and ultimate. In respect of your second interpretation, that would be > a > >nice way of accommodating conditionality with real and ultimate but that > is not > >what the commentary says. > > and I had replied: > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > No, you were clear. That slipped my mind. ===================================== Actually, I was wrong in this reply. Your message actually had not made that clear, at least not to me. What you had written was the following: _____________________________ The note at the bottom of the page reads: This is an inquiry into the nature of 'a real and ultimate [or self dependent] fact.' Comy. 'Conditioned (sankhata) is, in Buddhist tradition, what has been prepared, brought about by something else, made, has come together by conditions. -------------------------------------------------- I took this to mean that "Conditioned (sankhata) is, in Buddhist tradition, what has been prepared, brought about by something else, made, has come together by conditions" is what was commentary, and not the preceding sentence that said: This is an inquiry into the nature of 'a real and ultimate [or self dependent] fact.' It didn't just "slip my mind" that the commentary accepted that definition of 'real and ultimate' - I actually *missed * that important fact. Thank you for clarifying this. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 30408 From: Kenneth Ong Date: Sat Feb 21, 2004 9:23pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Points of Controversy Hi Michael Please read the whole passage and the end of the passage on <> pg 68 So where is there self that is self dependent thing to be found Then again condition thing is not the opposite of a self independent thing (which here I used it to describe as eternalism). Nothing exist is the opposite of a self independent thing. Condition is meant just to show dhammas depend on each other to exist. And there is no self involved. That is why some scholars made the mistake of equate Anatta as opposite of atta which is not correct. It is nihilism is the opposite of atta whereas anatta has no opposite, it is just anatta, a term to explain not self. Ken O 30409 From: nidive Date: Sat Feb 21, 2004 9:37pm Subject: [dsg] Re: distinction between nama and rupa. Hi Howard, > I would suspect precious few, and I would also suspect a cognitive > disorder in such cases (greater, that is, than all worldlings have As much as I disagree with you, yet in no way do I see the Teacher incapable of expounding his Dhamma in full clarity to these precious few. I do not see any defects in the Teacher's dispensation. http://www.u.arizona.edu/~chalmers/misc/nytimes2.html http://www.u.arizona.edu/~chalmers/papers/tls.html Among the several positions held about consciousness and the self, Dennett and many others believe consciousness is simply what the brain does, a process, like life or growth, not a great philosophical problem. Gazzaniga believes that it is indeed something the brain does, but he offers a location for the self, an "interpreter module" in the left cerebral cortex. Some philosophers say the whole notion that activity in the brain can account for subjective experience is naive and unacceptable. http://deseretnews.com/dn/view/0,1249,525036215,00.html Burgess and a colleague are currently doing experiments to see if "external qi" — directed deliberately by a person toward someone or something else — can cause chicken nerve cells to grow differently in a petri dish. "The work is in progress, but it's promising," Burgess reports. If successful, the experiments might show that consciousness is something real and separate from the brain, acting not only on nerve cells in the brain but on other cells as well. "We don't know what consciousness is," he says. "If we knew what its properties were, then we might say, 'Of course it might survive death because given its properties we can predict it will not be dependent for its integrity on being interfaced with the brain.' But we don't know now. We're very, very early in this as a scientific endeavor." Regards, Swee Boon 30410 From: Kenneth Ong Date: Sat Feb 21, 2004 9:43pm Subject: Gradual Training Hi Jeff Are you still around, is a long while since I heard from you. I remember you said it is possibe to be enlightened this lifetime with jhanas. It may be possible for those who have the right conditions, I think for the average man, below is a sutta on gradual training. MN Sutta 70, Kitagiri Sutta <> Ken O 30411 From: Kenneth Ong Date: Sat Feb 21, 2004 9:52pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Gradual Training Hi all For who doubt the so call "non-action" group in DSG ;-) So where is the need to deliberate action because faith, reflection will condition actions to arise. So where is the doer doing the doing ;-) Cheers. Continuing with the earlier sutta on MN 70 <> Ken O 30412 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sat Feb 21, 2004 10:44pm Subject: Re: [dsg] The Commentaries in Memoriam... Venerable Bhante, I appreciate your quote from Ms. Horner very much. As I learnt from an old grammarian (I am not sure it is from the Kaccayaana): (akkharavipattiya.m hi atthassa dunnayataa hoti, tasmaa akkharakosalla.m bahuupakaara.m suttantesu). This is another proof that the ancient teachers were most accurate. If people today think that there were mistakes it is worth while studying such points. Then one can examine whether he himself has perhaps not understood the subtle points. Respectfully, Nina. op 21-02-2004 10:20 schreef Bhikkhu Samahita op bhikkhu_samahita@y...: > It is true that the Pali words can be translated, yet what they might > mean in this or that context, can best be elucidated by utilizing the > ancient commentaries and their accurate, exhaustive & thorough > method of explanation... > The Pali Canon & the Commentaries are thus an interdependent Pair! > The latter is the essential & only prevailing tool for understanding > -as exact as possibly can be- of the former... > Together they form an ordered whole, to guide Humanity in its quest > for Independence and the Perfection of Freedom..." 30413 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sat Feb 21, 2004 10:44pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Points of Controversy Hi Michael, I appreciate your interest in the Kathavatthu. See my note below. op 21-02-2004 18:37 schreef Michael Beisert op mbeisert@h...: > > I have just received the book "Points of Controversy - Kathavatthu" and > started to read Book I on the Existence of a Personal Entity. I came across a > note on page 54 which has caught my attention, and maybe someone would care to > confirm whether my reading is correct. The question placed by the Theravadin > and the note reads as follows: > > [225] The person [you say] is known in the sense of a real and ultimate fact - > is the person conditioned? > > The note at the bottom of the page reads: This is an inquiry into the nature > of 'a real and ultimate [or self dependent] fact.' Comy. 'Conditioned > (sankhata) is, in Buddhist tradition, what has been prepared, brought about by > something else, made, has come together by conditions. > My understanding is that a conditioned thing is the opposite of a self > dependent thing, i.e. a conditioned thing exists by virtue of internal and > external conditions, and apart from those conditions it is impossible for that > thing to exist, while a self dependent thing is something that does not depend > on conditions but depends on something intrinsic to it for its existence. > My reading of the note is that a real and ultimate fact is a self dependent > fact, i.e. not subject to conditions. Any comments? N: Did you see the square brackets? It must be the translator and here we see again how important Pali is. Could you, perhaps, download the Pali so that we can compare? I do not have this edition of PTS, I have the Thai with Pali in Thai but I have the PTS Co: <..here 'real' means that which is not to be apprehended as not fact, like magic, a mirage and the like; actual. 'Ultimate' means that which is not to be accepted as hearsay; highest sense...> How does this sound to you? Nina. 30414 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Feb 21, 2004 11:47pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Starting out on Abhidhamma Phil Good to have you back again. --- Philip wrote: > Hello everyone. > This morning, I read the following passage posted by Jon. > "I believe that a knowledge of the Abhidhamma and commentaries is > necessary for a proper understanding of the discourses...". ... > Anyways, thanks for the nudge about Abhidhamma, Jon. You're welcome, Phil. You are fortunate in being able to see so readily the relevance of the Abhidhamma. For most (including me) it takes not months but years. > Metta > Phil > P.S And the first chapter of Nina's book has already enabled me to > better understand what the heck you folks are talking about all the time! :) That's great. Immediate result! I know how frustrating it is without a familiarity with the terms. Nina's book is very informative, and unique in the way suttas and Abhidhamma are used to illustrate and explain each other. Happy reading! Jon PS For others who may be inspired by Phil's example, here are links to ADL again: http://www.abhidhamma.org/abhid.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ 30415 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Feb 21, 2004 11:57pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Andy, Love lost / the self... how? Andy Hello and welcome from me. I very much liked you quote from the Abhidhammattha-Sangaha, --- Andy Wilson wrote: ... > "path consciousness of stream entry cannot occur in the immaterial > realms because it is contingent on hearing the Dhamma, which > presupposes the ear faculty" (III, #21c) So obvious yet so profound. And the importance of hearing the dhamma applies not just initially in a given lifetime, I believe, but again and again throughout that life and subsequent lifetimes until enlightenment has been achieved (although if I'm not mistaken, the Buddha urged even those who had attained enlightenment to continue listening and reflecting). Thanks for the reminder. Hope you're having a good weekend. Jon 30416 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Feb 22, 2004 0:29am Subject: Panna and the Fourth Noble Truth (was, The Dhamma ...) Jack Thanks for the correction about clinging being the Second Noble Truth, not the first. I find mistakes are liable to happen at 6 in the morning, especially when you're trying to be out of the door by 6:30. (And this in fact wasn't the only mistake in the post -- see below.) Thanks also for commenting on the other points: Jack: The Fourth Noble Truth/ 8-Fold Path has 8 paths not one. Looking at it another way, Right Knowledge is only 1/8 of the 8-Fold Path. Jon: I was referring to the Noble Eightfold Path as explained in the Pali canon (especially in the commentaries etc). To my reading, the Noble Eightfold Path means one or other of the following: (a) A moment of supramundane path consciousness (magga citta), that is to say, the moment of 1 of the 4 stages of enlightenment. At such moments (and only at such moments) the consciousness is accompanied by all 8 path factors, these being different mental factors (cetasikas) arising with the path consciousness. (b) A moment of mundane path consciousness (consciousness accompanied by panna of the level of satipatthana; vipassana bhavana), that is to say, a moment at which a presently arising dhamma is seen by panna as it truly is. At such moments some, but not all 8, of the path factors are present (these again being mental factors (cetasikas) arising with the consciousness (citta)). Thus according to these texts the path is a *single but multi-factored* occurrence; it cannot be constituted by the presence of just 1 or 2 of the 8 factors -- all or most must be present. That means that if one particular factor is present, the others must be there too. As regards the particular role of panna (right view), this is said to 'come first', i.e., to be the leader. So for these reasons I think it's quite OK to characterise the fourth Noble Truth, in a mundane sense, as the development of panna of the level of satipatthana/vipassana. Jack: If one looks at the Cycle of Dependent Origination, ignorance is the cause of suffering. But, one could also say vedana (feelings) are the cause of suffering. Or, one could pick any of the links in the Cycle and say they are a cause of suffering. The Cycle is a cycle, i.e., the last link is connected to the first. Change any link and suffering is eliminated. The usual way to look at it is that the two easiest to change are the links of ignorance and feelings. Jon: My grasp of dependent origination, even at the theoretical level, is weak, I'm afraid, but if I'm not mistaken the texts of the Pali canon indicate that the cycle is broken by the absence/destruction of ignorance (i.e., the presence of panna). I'm not aware that feelings are mentioned in this context, but I'd be happy to be corrected. Perhaps someone has a reference on the point. Talking of mistakes, as we were earlier, in my last post to you I said: As the Satipatthana Sutta makes clear, there can be awareness of presently occurring akusala mind-states. This would be an instance of the fourth foundation of mindfulness. In fact the foundation I had in mind was the third (mind/citta), which in the 'Way of Mindfulness' translation of the Satipatthana Sutta is referred to as the Contemplation of Consciousness (see excerpt pasted below). While on the subject of awareness of akusala mind-states, note also that the hindrances are specifically mentioned as objects of awareness too, under the fourth foundation (dhammas), referred to as the Contemplation of Mental Objects (see excerpt). They are given the same 'status' as any other dhammas in the range of potential objects of satipatthana. In some texts dealing with the hindrances there is a 6th, ignorance, which is given as the one hindrance to enlightenment, the usual 5 being regarded as hindrances to jhaana only. We seem to be covering quite a number of points :) Jon Soma Thera, 'The Way of Mindfulness' (Satipatthana Sutta) ************************ The Contemplation of Consciousness "And how, O bhikkhus, does a bhikkhu live contemplating consciousness in consciousness? "Here, O bhikkhus, a bhikkhu understands the consciousness with lust, as with lust; the consciousness without lust, as without lust; the consciousness with hate, as with hate; the consciousness without hate, as without hate; the consciousness with ignorance, as with ignorance; the consciousness without ignorance, as without ignorance; ... The Contemplation on Mental Objects 1. The Five Hindrances "Here, O bhikkhus, a bhikkhu lives contemplating the mental objects in the mental objects of the five hindrances. ... when sensuality is present, a bhikkhu knows with understanding: 'I have sensuality,' or when sensuality is not present, he knows with understanding: 'I have no sensuality.' ... etc [and the same for the rest of the 5 hindrances] ... ******************* 30417 From: Sarah Date: Sun Feb 22, 2004 0:29am Subject: Re: [dsg] Points of Controversy Hi All, For those who don’t have copes of the texts, let me fish out a few quotes I’ve given before in earlier posts: Kathaavatthu transl as 'Points of Controversy' by Shwe Zan Aung & Mrs Rhys Davids (PTS) Kathaavatthuppakara.na-A.t.thakathaa as 'The Debates Commentary' by Bimala Churn Law (PTS) ================ 1. From Kathavatthu above - summary of commentary: ..... “1. Of the Existence of a Personal Entity. Controverted Point. That the ‘person’ is known in the sense of a real and ultimate fact. (S:paramattha dhamma). From the commentary- The Theravadin questions a Puggalavadin (one who believes in the existence of a personal entity, soul, or perduring immortal essence in man) concerning his position. Who among the eighteen schools of thought were Puggalavadins? In the Saasana the Vajjiputtakas and Sammitiyas, and many other teachers besides, not belonging to the Saasana. ‘Person’(puggala) means soul, being, vital principle. ‘Is known’: is approached and got at by the understanding, is cognized. ‘Real’: not taken as an effect of magic or mirage, actual. ‘Ultimate’(paramattho): highest sense, not taken from tradition, or hearsay. ‘Known’ as one of the fifty-seven ultimates of our conscious experience (i.e 5 aggregates, 12 sense organs and objects, 18 elements, 22 controlling powers). ***** 2.From Kathaavatthu above, Book 1, 1 The Eight Refutations. The First Refutation, 1) The fivefold Affirmative Presentation. “Theravadin - Is ‘the person’ known in the sense of a real and ultimate fact? Puggalavadin - Yes Th - Is the person known ‘in the same way’ as a real and ultimate fact is known? P - Nay, that cannot truly be said. Th - Acknowledge your refutation: i) If the person be known in the sense of a real and ultimate fact, then indeed, good sir, you should also say, the person is known in the same way as [any other] real and ultimate fact[is known]. ii) that which you say here is wrong, namely, 1) that we ought to say,‘the person is known in the sense of a real and ultimate fact,’ but 2) we ought not to say, the person is known in the same way as [any other] real and ultimate fact [is known]. iii) If the latter statement 2) cannot be admitted, then indeed the former statement 1) should not be admitted. iv) In affirming the former statement 1), while v) denying the latter 2), you are wrong. ***** 3.From the Kathavatthu above,Bk1, 111, Derivatives: “Theravadin - Is the concept of soul (puggala) derived from the corporeal qualities (rupas)? Puggalavadin - Yes. T: But has a soul also any or all of these qualities? P: Nay, that cannot truly be said.... T: Or is the concept of soul derived from feeling, from perception, from mental coefficients, from consciousness? P: Yes (to each aggregate in succession). T: Is any mental aggregate impermanent, conditioned? Does it happen through a cause? Is it liable to perish, to pass away, to become passionless, to cease, to change? P: Yes. T: But has soul also any of these qualities? P: Nay, that cannot truly be said.....” ..... [S:The same argument applies to table, chair, tree and so on....] To link this to the SN1, Devatasamyutta thread, we read in SN1:76 (6) Does Not Decay: “What decays, what does not decay? .................. “The physical form (rupa) of mortals decays (jaarati), Their name and clan does not decay.” ***** Metta, Sarah I’d like to stress again the points I made in the following post when reading the Tipitaka (including Abhidhamma) and ancient Pali commentaries, especially if you are familiar with Nagarjuna and his writings: http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/m23762.html ======== 30418 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Feb 22, 2004 0:34am Subject: Re: [dsg] The Dhamma Theory -- Paramattha Michael --- Michael Beisert wrote: > Hello Jon, > > And I say vow, this statement does away with the whole noble > eightfold path. > > > what breaks that cycle is the development of panna of the kind > associated with > satipatthana/vipassana (this is the gist of the fourth noble truth) Well that depends on how you see the Noble Eightfold Path ;-)) You haven't explained, but if your point is similar to Jack's, please see my reply just sent to him. Happy to discuss further. Jon 30419 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Feb 22, 2004 0:37am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Catching Anger Victor Thanks for setting this little assignment for me ;-)). I hope you don't mind if I just repeat the offer I made in my last post, namely, that if there's any particular point from my post that you'd like to question or discuss I'll do my best to elaborate. Jon --- yu_zhonghao wrote: > Hi Jon, > > Whatever point in the message > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/30249 > that you want to support with discourses are fine. I think what > you > can do is to go through the statements you made in the message and > list all or some of the points in that message and provide some > reference to each of them so the discussion is based on how the > discourses support or not support your points. > > Metta, > Victor 30420 From: Sarah Date: Sun Feb 22, 2004 0:44am Subject: Re: [dsg] Gradual Training Hi Ken O & All, --- Kenneth Ong wrote: > For who doubt the so call "non-action" group in DSG ;-) So where is > the need to deliberate action because faith, reflection will > condition actions to arise. So where is the doer doing the doing ;-) > Cheers. .... I was also reminded of the following from the Satipathana Sutta commentary. (Remember the ‘Way’ corner?) http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/m18237.html Commentary on the Satipatthana Sutta, "The Way of Mindfulness" trans. &ed. Soma Thera, Commentary, Buddhaghosa Thera, Subcommentary (tika),Dhammapala Thera. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/misc/wayof.html “There are these six things which help to throw out doubt: The state of being learned in the Buddha's teaching; of inquiring about the Buddha, the Dhamma, and the Sangha; of understanding thoroughly the nature of the Discipline; of being decided about the truth of the Buddha, the Dhamma, and the Sangha; sympathetic and helpful companionship; and stimulating talk that helps to dispel doubt. "The first has been explained earlier. It is the knowledge of the Suttas generally both in the letter and the spirit. The second is obvious. The third indicates a state of mastery of the Discipline through practical application and great conversance with it at first hand. The fourth is the strong inclination towards or reliance on the Triple Gem called the faith that is capable of settling in the object of the virtues of the Buddha, the Dhamma and the Sangha. The fifth is association with good companions like the Elder Vakkali, bent, inclined, sliding towards faith, mentally. The sixth is stimulating talk on the Triple Gem at all times possible in every state of behavior. One can cast away doubt by means of these six things, but the doubt cast out by these six things does not ever arise in the future only when it is destroyed by the attainment of the first stage of the Arahant." Metta, Sarah ====== 30421 From: Sarah Date: Sun Feb 22, 2004 3:20am Subject: Re: [dsg]_Re:_A___HAPPY___VALENTINE´S___DAY_!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Hi Icaro, --- icarofranca wrote: > This could be a sort of attachment of my part... anyway, the other > Abhidhamma's other books and Tiikas are very good too. However, the > fact is I really like Dhammasangani style! .... S: Well, when we’re reading texts, there are bound to be the usual mixed pot pourri of wholesome and not so wholesome states. It’s good to recognise the attachment at these times too;-) I’m very excited (read lots of attachment in the pot pourri) that Michael and others are reading the Kathavatthu as I love its style. I was always rather put off the Dhammasangani because the English transl is not the best - that’s why I’m glad you’re introducing me to bits of the Pali - pls keep quoting them for me. .... > Oh! Don't be so amused ;-)). > At Pali Language I am threading a path a quite similar for my > former learnings(Hah!Hah!). I am taking the Duroseille's, the > Elementary Pali Course of Maha Narada Thera and a direct approach of > the Abhidhamma itself. It's being very fruitful! .... S: Actually, if one has studied the Abhidhamma a little, the Abhidhamma-Pali is the easiest to follow I find - no descriptive passages with extra vocabulary. .... > The Visuddhimagga I will buy the complete and unabridged book out > of Pariyatti and BPS. The first chapter Coonie had provided me arose > my appetite! .... S: For general reference, the BPS version is hardback and sturdy. The Pariyatti version is paperback and more flimsy, but lighter and probably cheaper, I’m not sure. For Ch X1V (see study corner), the entire chapter in Pali can be found in files - go to the bottom where Jim has posted it. The numbering corresponds with the numbering for the sections Larry is posting in English.http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/ ..... > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Freud had already pointed out the links between the our sub- > conscience and the human being hearing apparatus. a good and nice > word makes real good! > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- S: Yes, of course it’s not just the hearing or the opening of the book,nor is it the amount of reading or number of teachers one visits that leads to any insight, but the wise considering, reflecting and so on. If we haven’t heard or read the Dhamma or understood it correctly, there cannot be any wise reflection or refuge in the Dhamma. One word reflected on wisely out in the jungle can be far more precious than the entire Tipitaka read or heard in a temple without any understanding.....Oh it always comes back to the present reality in bootcamp, Thailand or whilst swimming in the cold sea this morning....brrr. .... > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Indeed. I can say unto you, Sarah, that reading the portuguese > translation of the Chapter of Eights gave me really this impression - > something like "Let us try this venerable Holy Man and check out if > he has really got a knack on these ascetic matters!". > Only reading the Pali originals I can build up a better concept > about it! > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- S: If you fish out the Pali we can compare it with the English translations I have (Saddhatissa’s which I quoted and Norman’s). I think the confidence in what we know from other studies helps - for example we know there is not a remnant of sarcasm or wrong speech for arahants, so if the translation seems to suggest this, we can be sure it’s a problem in the translation....Maybe Michael can help look at it too....His linguistic skills are amazing! .... > I will try to ellaborate this view: Buddha is really above such > low tracts of murdering, slandering and so on. As a matter of fact, a > mundane person stucked on these lower realms ought to spend many and > many lives to purify his/hers lives and begin to thread up the Path > towards Nibbana. No one can expect a state of Satipatthana fully > developed on Angulimala, for example, without the direct act of > Buddha. .... S:I get you so far.... .... >But since he is a "Thunderhead" himself, the arahat more > akin of his temper could be Sariputta. So, at Zen viewpoint, > Sariputta the Arahat is the mindfullness being Angulimala could > emulate on to stand at same feet! .... S:I get what you’re saying (maybe I haven't studied enough Zen to get the quick version).....still very different accumulations, I think. No one could emulate Sariputta (not sure the ‘thunderhead’ applies and I don’t think there is any suggestion of Sariputta being anything other than even-tempered:-/) Thanks for helping me with the riddle - look f/w to the next;-) Metta, Sarah ====== 30422 From: Sarah Date: Sun Feb 22, 2004 4:03am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: What is Vipassana? & Keeping track of daughters (was 'Unknown') Hi Christine, I had meant to come back to our discussion: --- christine_forsyth wrote: > Hello Sarah, and All, > > Regarding vipassana - I feel comfortable with that definition, .... That definition was: “The term may correctly be applied to any Buddhist meditation technique that aims for a complete understanding of the Three Characteristics -...” If we sat down and concentrated on breath or the abdomen or any other object(s) with this aim, would that be ‘vipassana’ as you understand it? If not, what makes a ‘Buddhist meditation technique’ and if so, what is it about the concentration or practice here that makes it ‘vipassana’? ..... > and > also with Nyanatiloka where he says "Insight is not the result of a > mere intellectual understanding, but is won through direct meditative > observation of one's own bodily and mental processes", and then goes > on to list the stages of insight. .... OK, what do you understand by the ‘direct meditative observation’ here that you agree with? (I think it’s rather ambiguous). ..... >Good, also, to have the > opportunity to ask why choosing to sit and meditate is 'self-view' > and possibly even silabbata-paraamaasa, but choosing to regularly > study, discuss and listen to the Dhamma isn't? ..... Excellent Qu. Again it comes back to present realities. If one chooses to sit and meditate or to open a book believing that the concentration or study will in itself bring any vipassana, then it’s likely to be silabbata-paraamaasa - it can creep in anytime. Or it may be self-view, thinking that it’s MY understanding or that in truth one really CAN choose any action. If we have any idea of it being the action in itself that brings about the insight, it’s wrong. As it mentioned in the commentary to the sutta on Scholars and Meditators I referred to, it said under the first category: “But here it should be panna which penetrates by considering, and also panna on the level of asking questions and learning.” In other words, it’s the panna conditioned by hearing the right words rather than the activity itself that is vipassana. Again, it’ll be by conditions whether we sit and meditate, swim in cold water or open texts, considering wisely or unwisely. I wrote in that post (7421), >The dhammayoga bhikkhus (the ones dedicated to Dhamma or the Scholars) ‘penetrate the deep meaning of the khandhas (aggregates), the dhatus (elements), the ayatanas (sense-fields).’ < However, when there is an idea of ‘penetrating the deep meaning’ or concentrating on the khandhas or listening to Dhamma in order to have more sati (for self), then wrong view and clinging to wrong practice are bound to creep in again. That’s why we can talk about the value of listening, considering and so on, but it always comes back to present sati and panna to really be aware and know the namas and rupas appearing now. I’d be glad to continue this discussion, Chris, and hear any more about what’s on your mind - frank is fine! These are good and subtle points. Metta, Sarah ====== 30423 From: buddhatrue Date: Sun Feb 22, 2004 5:05am Subject: I'm Back! Hi All, I'm back! ;-)) My computer is fixed now and I am simply overwhelmed by the number of posts I missed! I know that it will be impossible for me to try to backtrack. I will just enter here. If there is a post that was directed to me which anyone would like me to address, please let me know and I will get to it. I hope Sarah hasn't gone through too much withdrawal from me giving her a hard time! I will try to catch up in that regard. ;-)) If anyone else would like me to give them a hard time also, don't hesitate to ask! ;-) Metta, James 30424 From: buddhatrue Date: Sun Feb 22, 2004 5:33am Subject: Re: What is Vipassana? & Keeping track of daughters (was 'Unknown') Hi Sarah, Sarah: If we have any idea of it being the action in itself that brings about the insight, it's wrong. James: How do you know this? Are you using `we' as in the `Royal We' meaning `You'? Or `we' as in `everyone'? If it is the latter, I don't think you know what will or will not bring about insight for anyone else. You are making a broad generalization and a huge assumption. Sarah: "But here it should be panna which penetrates by considering, and also panna on the level of asking questions and learning." In other words, it's the panna conditioned by hearing the right words rather than the activity itself that is vipassana. James: I find your `In other words' paraphrase of this quote to be incorrect. This quote states that `asking questions' is also a level of panna and yet you don't acknowledge this activity in your paraphrase. I don't believe that panna is as passive as you are suggesting. Sarah: That's why we can talk about the value of listening, considering and so on, but it always comes back to present sati and panna to really be aware and know the namas and rupas appearing now. James: Knowing the namas and rupas appearing now is impossible without the activities of mindfulness and concentration (meditation). The level of panna you are describing is only intellectual, it isn't penetrative. It isn't a direct knowledge and therefore isn't going to do us much good. Sure, you can discuss it till the cows come home ;-), but suffering won't be decreased any and enlightenment won't be realized (according to what the Buddha taught). Metta, James 30425 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Feb 22, 2004 5:38am Subject: Re: [dsg] Gradual Training Sarah, Ken O and All --- Sarah wrote: > Hi Ken O & All, ... > “There are these six things which help to throw out doubt: ... > [5] sympathetic and helpful companionship; and > [6] stimulating talk that helps to dispel doubt. > > "... The fifth is association with good companions > like the Elder Vakkali, bent, inclined, sliding towards faith, > mentally. > The sixth is stimulating talk on the Triple Gem at all times > possible in every state of behavior. And I think it's worth adding that the same 2 factors of association with good companions and stimulating talk are given as helping to throw out each of the 5 hindrances (and I read 'throw out' here as meaning 'eradicate'). Powerful conditions, in my view. Jon 30426 From: Sarah Date: Sun Feb 22, 2004 6:02am Subject: Re: [dsg] The Commentaries in Memoriam... Dear Ven. Samahita (& Nina), I also appreciated the comments and quote. Miss Horner also wrote in her preface to the the same text, ‘Clarifier of Sweet Meaning: “The prime object of every Commentary is to make the meanings of the words and phrases in the canonical passages it is elucidating abudantly clear, definite, definitive even, ‘heuristic’ in E.Hardy’s words, and virtually beyond all doubt and argument. This is to preserve the Teaching of the Buddha as nearly as possible in the sense intended, and as conveyed by the succession of teachers, aacariyaparamparaa. Always there were detractors, always there were and still are ‘improvers’ ready with their own notions. Through enemies and friends alike deleterious change and deterioration in the word of the Buddha might intervene for an indefinite length of time. The ctys are the armour and protection against such an eventuality. As they hold a unique position as preservers and interpreters of true dhamma, it is essential not only to understand them but to follow them carefully and adopt the meaning they ascribe to a word or phrase each time they comment on it. They are as “closed” now as is the Pali canon. No additions to their corpus or subtractions from it are to be contemplated, and no cty written in later days could be included in it.” ***** Besides her wonderful and valuable translation work and writing, I.B. Horner was Honorary Secretary of the Pali Text Society, 1942-59, and President and Honorary Treasurer, 1959-81. As I’ve mentioned once before, I once turned up at her London flat in 1976, thinking I was visiting the PTS. bookshop to buy my first PTS texts, a copy of the Atthasalini translation and one of the Nikaya collections, I believe, at what was a great expense for me then. I’d walked a long way and was most embarassed when a neat, small, elderly lady opened the door and told me it was her home address I’d followed from the PTS catalogue. Miss Horner invited me in for afternoon tea -- it was rather unheard of in London to invite strangers in to one’s house -- and she was very sweet and modest, reminding me of a favourite great aunt. I had no idea then that many of the texts in her library which was along one wall of the small, very English living room were her own translations. I had studied very little then, but she showed a lot of interest and encouragement for my intended purchases of texts and recent travels in India and Sri Lanka, without a word about her own extensive studies and scholarship or travels or interrupted work which I could see laid out on a desk. In appreciation, Metta, Sarah ====== --- Bhikkhu Samahita wrote: > Friends: > > "I believe there to be a increasingly aware understanding of that > the Buddha-Dhamma of the Pali Canon is so deep, subtle, precise, > comprehensive & systematic, that it is not as easy to grasp, as often > initially imagined... > It is true that the Pali words can be translated, yet what they might > mean in this or that context, can best be elucidated by utilizing the > ancient commentaries and their accurate, exhaustive & thorough > method of explanation... > The Pali Canon & the Commentaries are thus an interdependent Pair! > The latter is the essential & only prevailing tool for understanding > -as exact as possibly can be- of the former... > Together they form an ordered whole, to guide Humanity in its quest > for Independence and the Perfection of Freedom..." > --oo0oo-- > > Miss Isabel Blew Horner (1896-1981), > President of the Pali Text Society 1959-81. > Author of over 200 works on Buddhism. > A western pioneer & promoter of Buddhist study. > In the 'Clarifier of Sweet Meaning' > The Buddha-Vamsa commentary. 30427 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Sun Feb 22, 2004 6:32am Subject: Re: Recognizing the Dhamma - 1. Dispassion (§ 1.1.) Hi Chrisitne, I have some questions on this passage: In the Buddha's sermon, for what qualities one may definitely hold: "This is the Dhamma, this is the Vinaya, this is the Teacher's instruction."? In other words, what is the Teacher's instruction in the sermon? Be cool. Metta, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Hello Victor and all, > > This sutta also fits in with the Samyutta study corner, and also with > the Vinaya. :-) Bhikkhu Bodhi calls it 'Burning' and has a note > about its origination, which is below: [snip] > Are you chaps any cooler up round Cooran? (KenH, Andrew, Steve) > > metta and peace, > Christine > ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "yu_zhonghao" > wrote: > > 1. Dispassion > > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/study/recognizing.html#dispassion 30428 From: Htoo Naing Date: Sun Feb 22, 2004 6:37am Subject: Sensing Dhamma as they really are ( 02 ) Dear Dhamma Friends, Contemplation on Dhamma has to arise when dhamma in different situations have been well recognized. At first, the meditator practised breathing meditation on his breath. In doing so, there develops some achievement. He notices that when the incoming air touches his nostril, a new consciousness arises knowing the touch sensation. That conscious mind is nama dhamma. The nostril where the touch sense is sensed is rupa dhamma. The air is rupa dhamma as well. But that air is sensed as touch sense and that touch sense is also rupa dhamma. Touch-consciousness or kayavinnana citta is nama dhamma. There are nama dhamma and rupa dhamma and nothing more than that. So this arises clearly in his wisdom while he is practising mindfulness on body, feeling, and mind and mind phenomena. This knowledge 'as real' happens at a time and this may be followed by other different mind states. Depending on maturity, the frequency of arising of concentrated mind is different in different sattas or beings. Sometimes, thougts drift away from the meditational object and meditational contemplation. But at certain time, a new mind state arises recognizing 'mind has been in the thought process' involving in sensual pleasure and sensual thoughts. When this arises, the meditator notes that it arising. And when it persists, the meditator notes that these thoughts persists. And again, when these sensual thoughts vanishes then he cognizes that they have passed away. He contemplates on those mind states as a hindrance to attainment of higher panna or wisdom. The hindrances are called nivarana dhamma and they hinder arising of jhana cittas, magga cittas, phala cittas. These sensual pleasure and sensual thoughts hinder jhana cittas and also hinder arising of upacara samadhi or proximate concentration. As thoughts on different things apart from the primary meditational object arise then there will not be any more concentrated mind. So called are these as hindrances or nivarana dhamma. These sensual thoughts are known as kamacchandha nivarana. May all meditators be free from kamacchandha nivarana or sensual thoughts while in meditation. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing htootintnaing@y... JourneyToNibbana@yahoogroups.com 30429 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Sun Feb 22, 2004 6:37am Subject: [dsg] Re: Catching Anger Hi Jon, It is ok, I will pass your offer. Thanks. Metta, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Victor > > Thanks for setting this little assignment for me ;-)). I hope you > don't mind if I just repeat the offer I made in my last post, namely, > that if there's any particular point from my post that you'd like to > question or discuss I'll do my best to elaborate. > > Jon > > --- yu_zhonghao wrote: > Hi Jon, > > > > Whatever point in the message > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/30249 > > that you want to support with discourses are fine. I think what > > you > > can do is to go through the statements you made in the message and > > list all or some of the points in that message and provide some > > reference to each of them so the discussion is based on how the > > discourses support or not support your points. > > > > Metta, > > Victor > > 30430 From: Michael Beisert Date: Sun Feb 22, 2004 6:43am Subject: Re: [dsg] Points of Controversy Hello Howard, Howard: By something that is imagined, I do NOT mean a thought or mental object. Now you, Michael, are starting to talk like some of the others here!! ;-)) A thought or mental object is NOT imagined, at least not as far as I'm concerned. It is an actual experience arising at the mind door. Thoughts and ideas are just as real or unreal as any other elements of experience. Michael: I think we are on the same page here. Howard: What a thought or mental object intendedly *points to*, on the other hand, may well be imagined. In fact, I believe that what it points to is *always* imagined in a way, because the intended object of a thought or idea, even when something such as hardness or heat, is never the same as the directly experienced object - the actual experience referenced just isn't there, only the idea or thought of it is there, and that is always different. The thought of heat may arise in the mind, but that which is thought *of*, namely heat, just isn't there; the thought of heat is not heat. Having a thought of something, however, and actually experiencing such a thing, may have some consequences in common. For example, experincing pain, and recalling pain or imagining it, are both likely to elicit an aversive reaction. Michael: I don't agree that the intended object of and idea is always imagined. In my view there is an external object which is captured by perception but perception is not capable of capturing an entire object in all its complexity. Perception only captures some signs and based on those it identifies the object. In addition to the signs perception is also influenced by contact and feelings which in turn are conditioned by kamma. There is also the influence of individual proclivities in this whole process. So, I would not completely discount the external object but how that external object will impinge on each individual mind process can vary significantly because of all the factors involved. Howard: As far as the "imputed" terminology is concerned, I borrowed that from the Gelugpa centrist school of Tibetan Buddhism. They use it in discussing concepts, saying, for example, that a chariot is not a "reality", because it is merely imputed on the basis of its parts. I thought that you might be aware of that terminology, and so I purposely used it as a possibly useful means of communication with you. You can ignore it. It isn't important. Michael: I see what you mean. If instead of 'things' you would have said 'parts' I might have got it. In the example of the chariot are you implying that the chariot is not real but the parts are? Because this is the what the paramatha/paññatti believers argue, i.e., the being is not real and not existent but the parts, the khandhas and dhammas are real and existent. Metta Michael 30431 From: Kenneth Ong Date: Sun Feb 22, 2004 6:54am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: What is Vipassana? & Keeping track of daughters (was 'Unknown') Hi James > James: Knowing the namas and rupas appearing now is impossible > without the activities of mindfulness and concentration > (meditation). The level of panna you are describing is only > intellectual, it isn't penetrative. It isn't a direct knowledge > and therefore isn't going to do us much good. Sure, you can discuss it till the cows come home ;-), but suffering won't be decreased any and enlightenment won't be realized (according to what the Buddha taught). k: Are you saying that sati and panna only applies when we meditate. ;-) And suffering only reduce during such meditation. I recall sati and panna is applicable to sitting, eating, drinking etc in the satipathana suttas. It will interesting to hear from your standpoint that I think differ from the sutta. Ken O 30432 From: Michael Beisert Date: Sun Feb 22, 2004 6:57am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: the self... how?/sacca Hello Howard and Ken, H: When Nagarjuna used the word 'exists' he seems to mean "is a true, separate, self-supporting entity," K: Does he mean, "not subject to conditions?" Is that what he accused the ancient commentators of saying? If so, how could he ever support such a ludicrous accusation? Without having studied a word of Nagarjuna, I wonder if he was trying to teach something altogether different from, "dhammas are real." I suspect he believed that dhammas are not real and that only the conditions-for-dhammas are real. That is, that dhammas are created in the mind as logical explanations of the prevailing conditions. This would explain why Michael has trouble differentiating between concepts and dhammas: by his definition, both are equally unreal – they are both mere, conventional designations. H: I'll let Michael speak for himself on this. ------------------------------------------------ Michael: What I am saying is that the commentators do not openly reject the idea of conditionality but that there are influences of substantialism in the explanations and words used. It is by and large the same process that happens in this list were people use the arguments that dhammas are truly real and ultimate existents while at the same time defend the idea that they are conditioned without realizing that both qualifications are mutually exclusive and incoherent. For your information, Ken, since you are not familiar with the writings of Nagarjuna, he did not argue that conditions are real. ‘Real’ has the sense of self dependent and in that sense it is a word that does not correctly reflect his thinking and does not reflect the thinking in the suttas either. Phenomena that are co-dependently arisen cannot be classified as real. They occur, can be experienced, can perform functions but are not actually real. They are not unreal either, they just are. Metta Michael 30433 From: Michael Beisert Date: Sun Feb 22, 2004 7:11am Subject: Re: [dsg] Points of Controversy Hello KenO, K: Then again condition thing is not the opposite of a self independent thing Michael: A conditioned thing only exists because of conditions which can be internal and external. A self dependent thing exists because of something intrinsic to it, it does not depend on conditions. A conditioned thing cannot be a self dependent thing and a self dependent thing cannot be a conditioned thing. The note I posted from the commentary to the Kathavattu specifies that ultimate realities are self dependent things. Metta Michael ----- Original Message ----- From: Kenneth Ong To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, February 22, 2004 12:23 AM Subject: Re: [dsg] Points of Controversy Hi Michael Please read the whole passage and the end of the passage on <> pg 68 So where is there self that is self dependent thing to be found Then again condition thing is not the opposite of a self independent thing (which here I used it to describe as eternalism). Nothing exist is the opposite of a self independent thing. Condition is meant just to show dhammas depend on each other to exist. And there is no self involved. That is why some scholars made the mistake of equate Anatta as opposite of atta which is not correct. It is nihilism is the opposite of atta whereas anatta has no opposite, it is just anatta, a term to explain not self. Ken O 30434 From: Date: Sun Feb 22, 2004 3:01am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: the self... how?/Jack In a message dated 2/21/04 8:07:13 PM Central Standard Time, ashkenn2k@y... writes: k: Let me ask you this question, can one control thoughts and tell thoughts to slow down. Do one need to go to a protect environment to realise that dhammas are anatta, anicca and dukkha? Do you think satipatthana only works in a protected environment or in every moment when we are talking, walking or eating? So what do you do when you come out of the protected environment, are you still able to see dhammas as anatta, anicca and dukkha. Ken O I get the sense you are just asking questions to be asking questions. I don't think either one of us is getting much out of this. So, this is the last questions I will be answering from you for a time. 1. By having the breath as primary meditation object, the arising of thoughts slow down. I think 99% of all people who have tried meditating can attest to this. 2. As I said in my previous post, I have never met anyone or read about anyone who has realized the 3 Marks without meditating in a protected environment. Theoretically, it could happen but I don't think it is very likely. 3. Satipatthana can "work" in any environment. But, as I said in (3) above, I think practice has to start in a protected environment. 4. Once one sees phenomena as the 3 Marks in a protected environment, one is changed and sees it everywhe re at any time. Practicing in a protected environment builds positive kamma. We start in a quiet environment watching our breath. With much practice, we have built up our "satipatthana muscles" and are able to apply it anywhere and anytime. I will let someone else if they are so inclined, address your comments on compassion below. Be well. Jack J> If I see clearly, I show compassion and loving kindness toward > others. This reduces their suffering. k: By just being compassion, do you think this will reduce other pain Let me quote you MN 82 Ratthapala Sutta <<"And what do you think, great king: Can you say to your friends & advisors, relatives & blood-kinsmen, 'My friends & advisors, relatives & blood-kinsmen are commanded: all of you who are present, share out this pain so that I may feel less pain'? Or do you have to feel that pain all alone?" "Oh, no, Master Ratthapala, I can't say to my friends & advisors, relatives & blood-kinsmen, 'All of you who are present, share out this pain so that I may feel less pain.' I have to feel that pain all alone." >> then again what is compassion. To me, what I call compassion, is someone who follow the teachings, attain the path even in the stream entrant level and teach others how to attain the path. 30435 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Sun Feb 22, 2004 8:15am Subject: [dsg] Re: What is Vipassana? & Keeping track of daughters (was 'Unknown') Hello Sarah, This is how I see it: Have you ever worked out by running on a threadmill? To some this aerobic exercise might look silly: running and going nowhere, monotonous, and boring. They might doubt the efficacy of this exercise. They might even hold contempt for those who worked out by running on a threadmill or for the exercise itself. But for those who actually exercised by running on a threadmill, they knew better. They knew its benefit and they benefited from actually doing the exercise. To do aerobic exercise, one exercise one's body. To meditate, one develops and cultivates one's mind. Running on the threadmill might look silly or simply wrong to some, but there is a purpose for doing so. Just like there is a purpose for meditation: to develop and cultivate one's mind. And the cessation of dukkha is impossible without developing and cultivating one's mind in terms of right effort (samma vayamo), right awareness (samma sati), and right concentration (samma samadhi). Now, it is one's choice to meditate or not. If one chose not to meditate, no one else could force him or her to do otherwise. Nevertheless, whether one chose meditate or not, one could still appreciate others who actually did. That appreciation, as I see it, is mudita. Please drop by the new Dhamma study corner - Recognizing the Dhamma sometime. I look forward to your participation. Metta, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > Hi Christine, [snip] > Metta, > > Sarah 30436 From: Date: Sun Feb 22, 2004 3:28am Subject: Re: [dsg] Gradual Training Hi, Ken - In a message dated 2/22/04 1:07:26 AM Eastern Standard Time, ashkenn2k@y... writes: > Hi all > > For who doubt the so call "non-action" group in DSG ;-) So where is > the need to deliberate action because faith, reflection will > condition actions to arise. So where is the doer doing the doing ;-) > --------------------------------------------------- Howard: Did someone suggest there is a doer doing the doing? ------------------------------------------------- > Cheers. > > Continuing with the earlier sutta on MN 70 > < practise, gradual progress? Here one who has faith [in a teacher] > visits him; when he visits him, he pays respect to him; when he pays > respect to im, he gives ear; one who gives ear hears the Dhamma; > having heard the Dhamma, he memorises it; he examines the meaning of > the teachings he has memorised; when he examines their meaning, he > gains a reflective acceptance of the teachings; when he has gained a > reflective acceptance of those teachings, zeal springs up in him; > -------------------------------------------------- Howard: Indeed! -------------------------------------------------- > when zeal has sprung up; he applies his will; > -------------------------------------------------- Howard: Aha! He does, does he? Well, keen interest, enthousiasm, and, yes, even hope and desire - those causes of suffering - can lead to useful volition. After all, we start where we are. ------------------------------------------------- having applied his> > will, -------------------------------------------------- Howard: Hmm, he applies it. Whoops, there's volition! (Maybe 'kamma' would sound better to some ears.) ------------------------------------------------ he scrutinises; having scrutinised; he strives; resolutely> > striving, > ------------------------------------------------ Howard: Hmm, he scrutinizes. That must take some will and effort. (Oh, yes, of course - it *says* that he strives. Oh my, it actually says that he strives *resolutely*!) ----------------------------------------------- he realises with the body the supreme truth and sess it by > > penetrating it with wisdom>> ----------------------------------------------- Howard: Wow! Sure is a good thing he strove. ----------------------------------------------- > > Ken O > > ====================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 30437 From: Larry Date: Sun Feb 22, 2004 8:31am Subject: [dsg] Re: distinction between nama and rupa. Hi Howard and Swee Boon, I think you both are under a misapprehension of what insight into nama and rupa entails. The idea is to identify as many realities as possible in one's experience, not make a simple conceptual distinction between nama and rupa. Interestingly, one whose vehicle is insight is obliged to go into considerably more detail than one whose vehicle is serenity. See Vism. ch. XVIII. However, I agree with Howard that it is not that big a deal. We can do it! So let's go ahead. Maybe the two Kens can lead the way.---> Ken-do! Larry 30438 From: Larry Date: Sun Feb 22, 2004 8:40am Subject: heartbase and insight knowledge Hi Nina, I notice in Vism. XVIII that insight knowledge into rupa begins with the heart-base for one whose vehicle is serenity. How should we take this? Should we visualize the heart or brain, notice the tangible data in the heart area or brain area, or what? Larry 30439 From: Date: Sun Feb 22, 2004 4:20am Subject: Re: [dsg] Points of Controversy Hi, Michael - In a message dated 2/22/04 10:17:00 AM Eastern Standard Time, mbeisert@h... writes: > Michael: > > I don't agree that the intended object of and idea is always imagined. In my > view there is an external object which is captured by perception but > perception is not capable of capturing an entire object in all its complexity. > Perception only captures some signs and based on those it identifies the object. > In addition to the signs perception is also influenced by contact and feelings > which in turn are conditioned by kamma. There is also the influence of > individual proclivities in this whole process. So, I would not completely discount > the external object but how that external object will impinge on each > individual mind process can vary significantly because of all the factors involved. > > ----------------------------------------------------- Howard: That's fine. Most people, including most Buddhists, are more like you in this respect than me. My position is one of thoroughgoing phenomenalism (or radical empiricism, as William James calls it). ----------------------------------------------------- > > > > Howard: > > As far as the "imputed" terminology is concerned, I borrowed that from > the Gelugpa centrist school of Tibetan Buddhism. They use it in discussing > concepts, saying, for example, that a chariot is not a "reality", because it > is > merely imputed on the basis of its parts. I thought that you might be aware > of > that terminology, and so I purposely used it as a possibly useful means of > communication with you. You can ignore it. It isn't important. > > > > Michael: > > I see what you mean. If instead of 'things' you would have said 'parts' I > might have got it. In the example of the chariot are you implying that the > chariot is not real but the parts are? Because this is the what the > paramatha/paññatti believers argue, i.e., the being is not real and not existent but the > parts, the khandhas and dhammas are real and existent. > -------------------------------------------------- Howard: I believe the Gelugpas would treat the parts similarly, further dividing them into parts upon which they are imputed. Despite their claim to the contrary, I think the Gelugpa approach to Madhyamaka is very close to the concept-only approach of the Vijnaptimatrata school. ====================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 30440 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Sun Feb 22, 2004 9:21am Subject: Recognizing the Dhamma - 1. Dispassion (§ 1.2.) Dispassion § 1.2. "And how does a monk guard the doors of his senses? On seeing a form with the eye, he does not grasp at any theme or details by which -- if he were to dwell without restraint over the faculty of the eye -- evil, unskillful qualities such as greed or distress might assail him. On hearing a sound with the ear... On smelling an odor with the nose... One tasting a flavor with the tongue... On touching a tactile sensation with the body... On cognizing an idea with the intellect, he does not grasp at any theme or details by which -- if he were to dwell without restraint over the faculty of the intellect -- evil, unskillful qualities such as greed or distress might assail him. Endowed with this noble restraint over the sense faculties, he is inwardly sensitive to the pleasure of being blameless. This is how a monk guards the doors of his senses." [DN 2] http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/study/recognizing.html#dispassion http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/digha/dn02.html 30441 From: Date: Sun Feb 22, 2004 4:26am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: distinction between nama and rupa. Hi, Larry - In a message dated 2/22/04 11:35:09 AM Eastern Standard Time, LBIDD@w... writes: > Hi Howard and Swee Boon, > > I think you both are under a misapprehension of what insight into > nama and rupa entails. The idea is to identify as many realities as > possible in one's experience, not make a simple conceptual > distinction between nama and rupa. Interestingly, one whose vehicle > is insight is obliged to go into considerably more detail than one > whose vehicle is serenity. See Vism. ch. XVIII. However, I agree with > Howard that it is not that big a deal. We can do it! So let's go > ahead. Maybe the two Kens can lead the way.---> Ken-do! > > Larry > =========================== You make it sound likea numbers game! ;-)) Now seriously, Larry, how often do you mistake mental for physical or physical for mental? With metta (that's mental, BTW ;-), Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 30442 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Sun Feb 22, 2004 9:35am Subject: Re: Recognizing the Dhamma - 1. Dispassion (§ 1.2.) Hi all, I just posted the second passage under Dispassion. Comparing to the first passage, I feel that although in both passage what the Buddha taught leads to dispassion, not to passion, the instruction in passage § 1.2. emphasizes the Vinaya, whereas the instruction in § 1.1. emphasizes the Dhamma. Again, the question I have in mind is: What specific qualities in passage § 1.2. of which one may know and may definitely hold as the Teacher's instruction? I wrote to Christine that I understand 'Vinaya' as '(Ethical) Conduct.' After some reflection, I think I would rather characterize/qualify 'Conduct' as 'skillful'/'wholesome'/'kusala' than 'ethical.' Comments are welcome. Metta, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "yu_zhonghao" wrote: > Dispassion > > § 1.2. > > "And how does a monk guard the doors of his senses? On seeing a form > with the eye, he does not grasp at any theme or details by which -- > if he were to dwell without restraint over the faculty of the eye - - > evil, unskillful qualities such as greed or distress might assail > him. On hearing a sound with the ear... On smelling an odor with the > nose... One tasting a flavor with the tongue... On touching a > tactile sensation with the body... On cognizing an idea with the > intellect, he does not grasp at any theme or details by which -- if > he were to dwell without restraint over the faculty of the > intellect -- evil, unskillful qualities such as greed or distress > might assail him. Endowed with this noble restraint over the sense > faculties, he is inwardly sensitive to the pleasure of being > blameless. This is how a monk guards the doors of his senses." > > [DN 2] > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/study/recognizing.html#dispassion > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/digha/dn02.html 30443 From: Carl Date: Sun Feb 22, 2004 11:13am Subject: Re: distinction between nama and rupa. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "nidive" wrote: > Hi Howard, > >Howard: > This issue of distinguishing nama from rupa strikes me as being much > > ado about nothing (or, if not "nothing", then at least "not much"!). > > Swee Boon: Might it not occur to you that there are people who have difficulty > distinguishing rupa from nama? > > Regards, > Swee Boon --------------------------------------------- ---------------------------------------------- Dear Howard and Swee Boon: Respectfully, I must confess to being one of those that has had difficulty distinguishing rupa from nama. It has taken me much effort and time to realize that "the name is not the form", "the map is not the ground". To begin to sense that "things" can be pulled apart to the point of annata was a rather startling (and fun) concept for me. The catagories of nama/rupa were as if a tar pit in my mind. I could not distinguish between form and feelings. Heck, i couldn't even distinguish between feelings! i really did not understand what a feeling was, or that my perception of a "thing" was seperate from that "thing". I could not distinguish between a tree and "my idea" of that very same tree. If i touched the tree, that was it, i was touching the tree. My consciousness seemed as one blended reality, a tar pit of everything stuck together. No distinction between what was heard, seen, felt, tasted of smelled. It was all me. I absolutly existed. No doubt about it. I WAS nama/rupa. I think my ignorance is not uncommon. I was definatally a dweller in downtown samsara. The Abhidahmma is really good for me, as now i have a place to hang and seperate each sticky item as i am able to pull it from the tar pit. Over there on the cetasika rack i have hung feelings, and next to that is perception and close by is mental formations. And look! Hanging on the citta rack is consciousness. Ah! the nama closet! Now on to the rupa closet. :) Anyway, the more i understand nama/rupa the less it becomes the trap of the tar pit. Then i can move on. Thanks Carl 30444 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sun Feb 22, 2004 11:41am Subject: Re: distinction between nama and rupa. Hello Carl, Swee Boon, Howard, Larry and all, Carl - thank you for this post - I was beginning to feel a little anxious that I was the only one with this 'cognitive disability'. I, too, could understand intellectually some facts - like Rupa is physical phenomena that does not experience anything; and Nama is mental phenomena that experiences something - but still confuse sound and flavour etc. as mental phenomena. Maybe we could form a support group for the Phenomenonally Challenged and ask for tutoring from the Cognitively Abled - that is, if we are not so far beneath their August notice that it prevents them realising we exist? (a little mana, perhaps, Howard :-) - that's mental BTW :-)) metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Carl" wrote: 30445 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Feb 22, 2004 11:57am Subject: Tiika Vis, note 27, no 2 Note 27, no 2: "The Path of Purification" Ch. XIV, 61 [concerning bodily intimation] , Note 27 no 2': Text: 'If just the apprehension of the alteration is the reason for the apprehension of the intention, why is there no apprehension of intention in unapprehended communication (sa.nketa)? It is not only just the apprehension of the alteration that is the reason for the apprehension of the intention; but rather it should be taken that the apprehension of the previously-established connexion is the decisive support for this. N: The seventh javama-citta originates the intimation expressing a meaning, but, the previous six javana-cittas causing the strengthening and supporting of the body are the decisive support for the seventh one that originates intimation. Text: The stiffening, upholding, and movement are due to the air element associated with the alteration belonging to the intimation, is what is said. N: The alteration: the unique change (vikaara) in the great Elements is bodily intimation. Text: What, is it all the air-element that does all those things? It is not like that. For it is the air-element given rise to by the seventh impulsion that, by acquiring as its reinforcing conditions the air elements given rise to by the preceding impulsions, moves consciousness-originated matter by acting as cause for its successive arisings in adjacent locations (desantaruppatti--cf. Ch. VIII, n.54), not the others. N: ³given rise to² translates sahita. I prefer belonging to, united with, connected with. The air element connected with, originated from the seventh impulsion (javana). Its successive arisings in adjacent locations. Desantaruppatti: desa: location, antare: in between, uppatti: arising. Refers to Vis. VIII, n. 54: here it is explained that what is stated as a long breath actually consists of many rupas that are arising in adjacent locations. Each rupa (in this case the rupa that is breath produced by citta) falls saway immediately, it could not stay and move on to another location. It only seems so. Text: The others, however, help it by doing the stiffening and upholding, the successive arising in adjacent locations being itself the movement. Text: So the instrumentality should be taken as attributed when there is the sign [of movement]; otherwise there would not be uninterestedness and momentariness of dhammas. N: the Pali does not have instrumentality, this translation is not clear. Kattubhaavo: the state of being an agent. It should be understood that the state of being an agent is effectd (sammaropito) by an image of motion, when there is arising in adjacent locations. Otherwise there would not be uninterestedness and momentariness of dhammas. N: There are only dhammas rolling on because of conditions, they are uninterested, they do not know anything. They are very momentary (kha.nika), they fall away immediately. It just seems that a coloured surface, that hands are moving, but in reality there are different dhammas arising in adjacent locations from moment to moment. Text: And here the cart to be drawn by seven yokes is given as simile in the commentary. N: Expositor I, p. 110: Just before this passage the Expositor stated It indicates that there are countless processes of cittas occurring when there is motion and intimation. Text: But when consciousness-born matter moves, the kinds of matter born of temperature, kamma, and nutriment move too because they are bound up with it, like a piece of dry cow-dung thrown into a river's current. N: The four factors that originate rupa all work together to cause motion. Just like a piece of cowdung that moves along with the river. ******* Nina. 30446 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Feb 22, 2004 11:57am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism.XIV 61 ,Larry's Q. no 1 Hi Larry, op 19-02-2004 05:19 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > > I see my mistake in interpreting "asabhava rupa". The rupas classified > as without an individual characteristic are so classified because they > are not produced by any of the 4 means of production: kamma, nutriment, > consciousness, temperature. Rather, they are attributes, qualities, > modes of such produced rupa. The Expositor, p. 111: <...because of the commucicableness of qualities set up by consciousness [the rupas originated from the first six javana cittas] intimation may also be said to be produced by consciousness.> L: "Asabhava rupa" has nothing to do with > concepts even though concept plays a role in the 2 intimations. Asabhava > rupas are: space, bodily intimation, vocal intimation, lightness, > malleability, weildiness, production, continuity, decay, impermanence. N: Agreed. L: Therefore, the following has to be interpreted in a different way: > > 27: "'If just the apprehension of the alteration is the reason for the > apprehension of the intention, why is there no apprehension of intention > in unapprehended communication (sa.nketa)? It is not only just the > apprehension of the alteration that is the reason for the apprehension > of the intention; but rather it should be taken that the apprehension of > the previously-established connexion is the decisive support for this." > > L: Maybe "previously-established connexion" refers to "There is a > certain kind of alteration that is separate from the appearance of > motion. And the apprehension of the former is next to the apprehension > of the latter. How is that to be known? By the apprehension of > intention."..... > In other words, one apprehends not only the motion of the air element > etc., but also one apprehends a subtle physical indication of intention > that is separate from the motion. You can tell when someone is trying to > communicate something by a gesture, even if you don't understand what > that something is. You can tell an intimating gesture from a > non-intimating gesture by this physical sign of intentionality. This > physical indication of intention, a subtle phenomenon, is "a certain > kind of alteration that is separate from the appearance of motion". N: See my notes to the text, it may be clearer now. When considering this rupa, we may think of the rupa conditioned by the citta of the intimator, or also of the citta of the receiver of intimation. As to the last one: he may understand or not understand. But, the rupa originated from the seventh javanacitta of the intimator occurred, even if the other person or animal did not understand what the meaning was. Nina. 30447 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Feb 22, 2004 11:57am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism.XIV 61 Larry's Q. 2 Hi Larry, op 19-02-2004 00:53 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > 27: "'If just the apprehension of the alteration is the reason for the > apprehension of the intention, why is there no apprehension of intention > in unapprehended communication (sa.nketa)? It is not only just the > apprehension of the alteration that is the reason for the apprehension > of the intention; but rather it should be taken that the apprehension of > the previously-established connexion is the decisive support for this." > > L: "Previously established connexion" I take to be the convention "this > movement signifies this meaning", e.g. holding up my hand in a certain > way signifies "stop". If we disallow all convention and conceptuality in > bodily intimation then what is intimated and why is bodily intimation an > asabhava rupa? N: You made a correction already. As to decisive support: see my analysis of the text. L : "What, is it all the air-element that does all those things? It is > not like that. For it is the air-element given rise to by the seventh > impulsion that, by acquiring as its reinforcing conditions the air > elements given rise to by the preceding impulsions, moves > consciousness-originated matter by acting as cause for its successive > arisings in adjacent locations (desantaruppatti--cf. Ch. VIII, n.54), > not the others. The others, however, help it by doing the stiffening and > upholding, the successive arising in adjacent locations being itself the > movement." > > L: "Others" N: the preceding six javana-cittas. L:and "preceding impulsions" I take to mean the first 6 of the > 7-impulsion series (javana cittas). All 7 of these accomplish the work > of intention, each in slightly different ways. Would you like to explain > a little more? N: Only the seventh expresses intention, but countless pprocesses of cittas accomplish this.Not the preceding six. See my text analysis. L: 27: "So the instrumentality should be taken as attributed when there is > the sign [of movement]; otherwise there would not be uninterestedness > and momentariness of dhammas." > : I don't quite get this but it could be something like: the appearance > of movement should be attributed to the instrumentality of the javana > cittas; otherwise there would be the belief in self as doer and a false > sense of continuousness. N: Right. I discarded instrumentality, because the Pali had: kattu: agent, which is much clearer. Nina. 30448 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Feb 22, 2004 11:57am Subject: Re: [dsg] Recognizing the Dhamma - 1. Dispassion ( § 1.1.) Hi Victor, op 22-02-2004 00:41 schreef yu_zhonghao op yu_zhonghao@y...: > > "The ear is aflame. Sounds are aflame... > > "The nose is aflame. Aromas are aflame... > > "The tongue is aflame. Flavors are aflame... > > "The body is aflame. Tactile sensations are aflame... N: I like this sutta. We learn about nama as well as rupa. They both have to be realized as they are so that we can see their danger. Again: all dhammas appearing through the six doors are referred to here. Nina. 30449 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Feb 22, 2004 11:57am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Recognizing the Dhamma - The Eight Principles Hi Victor, op 21-02-2004 22:39 schreef yu_zhonghao op yu_zhonghao@y...: > I tend to understand `Dhamma' as `Principle' and `Vinaya' > as `(Ethical) Conduct.' N: I tend to think: Dhamma and Vinaya: the entire teachings. Dhamma: Sutta, Geyya,Veyyaakara.na etc, including also the Abhidhamma: the Tipitaka classified as nine parts (angas) we find explained in the suttanta as quoted by Sarah. Indeed it gives a special ring to me. Nina. 30450 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Feb 22, 2004 11:57am Subject: Re: [dsg] Puzzlement over SN. Dear Azita, Here the method of the Dependent Origination is used. Vi~n~naa.na is vipaka at rebirth or during life. This conditions cetasikas and rupa (nama and rupa). Nina. op 22-02-2004 03:24 schreef gazita2002 op gazita2002@y...: > In the general intro. to Samyutta Nikaya, p48 B.Bodhi states: > > "It should be noted that in the Nikayas, namarupa does not > include consciousness (vinnana). Consciousness is its condition, and > the two are mutually dependent, like two sheaves of reeds leaning one > against the other (II 114,17-19)" 30451 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sun Feb 22, 2004 11:59am Subject: Re: Recognizing the Dhamma - 1. Dispassion (§ 1.1.) Hi Victor and all, As far as I can see, the actual qualities aren't named (so far?) - only how to recognise if 'any' quality *is* the Dhamma, the Vinaya, and the Teacher's instruction. "'As for the qualities of which you may know, 'These qualities lead: to dispassion, not to passion; to being unfettered, not to being fettered; to shedding, not to accumulating; to modesty, not to self-aggrandizement; to contentment, not to discontent; to seclusion, not to entanglement; to aroused persistence, not to laziness; to being unburdensome, not to being burdensome': You may definitely hold, 'This is the Dhamma, this is the Vinaya, this is the Teacher's instruction.'" metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "yu_zhonghao" wrote: > Hi Chrisitne, > > I have some questions on this passage: > > In the Buddha's sermon, for what qualities one may definitely > hold: "This is the Dhamma, this is the Vinaya, this is the > Teacher's instruction."? In other words, what is the Teacher's > instruction in the sermon? > > Be cool. > > Metta, > Victor > 30452 From: buddhatrue Date: Sun Feb 22, 2004 1:15pm Subject: Re: What is Vipassana? & Keeping track of daughters (was 'Unknown') Hi Ken O, Ken: Are you saying that sati and panna only applies when we meditate. ;-) And suffering only reduce during such meditation. I recall sati and panna is applicable to sitting, eating, drinking etc in the satipathana suttas. It will interesting to hear from your standpoint that I think differ from the sutta. James: I don't believe my viewpoint differs from the Satipatthana Sutta. I believe that you are taking what is described in the Satipattha sutta out of context. The Buddha was describing how to made mindfulness and contemplation an all-day activity for the monk. To state the obvious, you are not a monk. You are a householder with little children running around, a wife, aggravations, explosions of anger, etc. If you think that what the Buddha said in that sutta applies directly to your life, you are kidding yourself. You have chosen to lead a dusty life, not a holy life, so you need to be realistic about where you are. That isn't to say that you can't practice the Buddha's teachings, you can, but you shouldn't think that what the Buddha told his monks in that sutta applies directly to you. That isn't logical or realistic. With that said, the Satipattha Sutta describes sitting meditation that is reinforced and followed through during everyday activities. If there isn't any sitting meditation there won't be the full conditions to follow the practice of mindfulness in everyday activities. This is just common sense. If you can't even focus and calm your mind during sitting meditation, it will be impossible to do so during everyday activities. Additionally, these everyday activities need to have a lot of mindfulness and attention directed toward them to have any development of panna to a significant degree. The Buddha did describe how to have mindfulness during sitting, eating, drinking, etc., but this is pretty much all a monk does all day. A monk doesn't have a job, a car, money, clothes, children, a wife, in-laws, etc., etc., etc., all he has to do all day is be mindful of all of his very few activities. You really think your life can be comparable? I have even less attachments than you do (I think): no kids, no car, no family, no cell phone, no romantic relationships, no sexual relationships, no ties to my surrounding culture, etc., and I still find it difficult to practice the level of mindfulness that the Buddha described in the Satipatthana Sutta. One last word, sati and panna don't come in just one form or variety. There are several different levels of sati and panna. If you don't want to practice sitting meditation, okay, but don't believe that you will have the same level of mindfulness during everyday activities as those who do. Also, don't believe that you will achieve the same levels of sati and panna that meditators do. To think otherwise is just wishful thinking. Of course you can think what you want and do what you want; I am just giving you my opinion since you asked. Metta, James 30453 From: Sarah Date: Sun Feb 22, 2004 3:31pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:_Recognizing_the_Dhamma_-_1._Dispassion_(§_1.1.) Hi Christine (Victor, James), --- christine_forsyth wrote: > Hello Victor and all, > > This sutta also fits in with the Samyutta study corner, and also with > the Vinaya. :-) Bhikkhu Bodhi calls it 'Burning' and has a note > about its origination, which is below: > > BB: "This sutta, often called "The Fire Sermon", is the third > discourse of the Buddha as recorded in the narrative of his ministry > at Vin I 34-35. ..... Thanks for giving both translations and for adding all the notes. It's a good plan, Victor. KenO and I were looking at the last part, but it’s always better to have the whole sutta for context. Of course, only the Buddha knew exactly what they needed to hear to drop their wrong views and practices...... >"In the past they worshipped the fire morning and > evening. I will teach them that the twelve sense bases are burning > and blazing. In this way they will be able to attain arahantship." ..... > This sutta fits in very well with the heat wave we are having in S.E. > Queensland. 42 Celsius yesterday - and my aircon isn't working :-) > Dog and I hopped in the airconditioned car and went to visit my Mum > in her airconditioned home. Today has the same prediction. .... I just heard more about the harsh conditions around Brisbane on the news.....Let’s hope your lines haven’t been cut and some cool winds arrive for you all soon. I remember living in S.Australia in heat-waves without any cool relief and it wasn’t much fun. At least the hospital will be air-conditioned..... James, good to see you back in good humour;-) Christine has already set the lead with bhikkhunisamyutta and a very good choice of suttas too. Does anyone have any comments on these or others in this shorter section? Metta, Sarah ===== 30454 From: icarofranca Date: Sun Feb 22, 2004 3:52pm Subject: Re: distinction between nama and rupa. Dear Carl: > Dear Howard and Swee Boon: > Respectfully, I must confess to being one of those that has had > difficulty distinguishing rupa from nama. It has taken me much > effort and time to realize that "the name is not the form", "the > map is not the ground". To begin to sense that "things" can be > pulled apart to the point of annata was a rather startling (and fun) > concept for me. -------------------------------------------------------------------- As a matter of fact, Carl, every perception we get for external world is Nama conjoined with Rupa: an easy reference could be rupa as the body and nama as the soul... but at Dhamma we haven´t got such nonsense. Cf The Dhammapada , 380 : The Dhamma has not got an Ego, a self, as a Merchant or his horse, or his refuge or his master. So, Dhamma is Anatta, or, is devoid of Self, as the human law, applied to all citizens without any distinction of this Self or that Self. And at our mind´s realms, Rupa and Nama exist together. I take Nama as the medieval nominalist could take such term: nama is not a metaphisycal "Form" of Matter, is more or less akin of a label we put on our experience of world... and, at the last stand, Rupa and not Nama is a Aramana Dhamma (Cf. Dhammasangani, last chapter). --------------------------------------------------------------------- > The catagories of nama/rupa were as if a tar pit in my mind. I could > not distinguish between form and feelings. Heck, i couldn't even > distinguish between feelings! i really did not understand what a > feeling was, or that my perception of a "thing" was seperate from > that "thing". I could not distinguish between a tree and "my idea" > of that very same tree. -------------------------------------------------------------------- Spinoza could try a classification of human feelings at his "Ethica More Geometrico Demonstrata". Nietzsche could try the same at his "Ecce Homo". Buddha prefers a viewpoint at with such affairs are seen as impermanent aggregates of causes and conditions. At the Abhidhamma´s Puggala book we get also a classification of human types. --------------------------------------------------------------------- I was definatally a dweller in downtown > samsara. --------------------------------------------------------------------- It could be better than to be a definitively dweller on Downtown Barra, Rio de Janeiro...HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAH!!!! But, speaking serious now, it will of no use try to transform Samsara in Nibbana only by means of positive thinking. It doesn´t works at this way, mister! You must get a firm decision to boldly thread up the Path to Nibbana an throw off aside Samsaric tracts. Again The Dhammapada, 75 (Last stanza of Dhammapada V, Baalavagga): there are two distinct ways, the way towards illusory material pleasures - Samsara - and the way towards Nibbana. That´s the question. ------------------------------------------------------------------- > > The Abhidahmma is really good for me, as now i have a place to hang > and seperate each sticky item as i am able to pull it from the tar > pit. Over there on the cetasika rack i have hung feelings, and next > to that is perception and close by is mental formations. And look! > Hanging on the citta rack is consciousness. Ah! the nama closet! > Now on to the rupa closet. :) ------------------------------------------------------------------- Thanks to Internet, The Abhidhamma field is now more cheaper than seems - it won´t cost to you the proverbial thirty silver coins! Don´t hang yourself in anything you think to be unsecure ...and I hope this words may do you good! Mettaya, Ícaro 30455 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Sun Feb 22, 2004 4:14pm Subject: Re: Recognizing the Dhamma - 1. Dispassion (§ 1.1.) Hi Christine, Right, I also think it is not about naming the qualities but seeing that what the Buddha taught in the fire sermon leads to dispassion, not to passion. I think my question was not skillfully formulated. What struck me as I read what the Buddha said is: first, "Monks, the All is aflame," and secondly, "Aflame with what? Aflame with the fire of passion, the fire of aversion, the fire of delusion. Aflame, I tell you, with birth, aging & death, with sorrows, lamentations, pains, distresses, & despairs." The sermon as a whole is a very powerful teaching to me. It certainly is the Dhamma that leads to dispassion, not to passion. Metta, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Hi Victor and all, > > As far as I can see, the actual qualities aren't named (so far?) - > only how to recognise if 'any' quality *is* the Dhamma, the Vinaya, > and the Teacher's instruction. > "'As for the qualities of which you may know, 'These qualities lead: > to dispassion, not to passion; > to being unfettered, not to being fettered; > to shedding, not to accumulating; > to modesty, not to self-aggrandizement; > to contentment, not to discontent; > to seclusion, not to entanglement; > to aroused persistence, not to laziness; > to being unburdensome, not to being burdensome': > You may definitely hold, 'This is the Dhamma, this is the Vinaya, > this is the Teacher's instruction.'" > > metta and peace, > Christine 30456 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Sun Feb 22, 2004 4:24pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Recognizing the Dhamma - 1. Dispassion ( § 1.1.) Hi Nina, It is a very powerful teaching: vivid and powerful imagery. Metta, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > Hi Victor, > op 22-02-2004 00:41 schreef yu_zhonghao op yu_zhonghao@y...: > > > > > "The ear is aflame. Sounds are aflame... > > > > "The nose is aflame. Aromas are aflame... > > > > "The tongue is aflame. Flavors are aflame... > > > > "The body is aflame. Tactile sensations are aflame... > N: I like this sutta. We learn about nama as well as rupa. They both have to > be realized as they are so that we can see their danger. Again: all dhammas > appearing through the six doors are referred to here. > Nina. 30457 From: Kenneth Ong Date: Sun Feb 22, 2004 5:17pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Points of Controversy Hi Michael Read the text again please. The person [you say] is known in the sense of a real and ultimate fact - is the person conditioned? Then again the note - 'real and ultimate [or self dependent] fact' Please note that "real and ultimate" here is used to illustrate that whether self exist on its own right that is why it used self dependent. Real and ultimate used in paramatthas is conditional existence and they both carry different meanings. Ken O 30458 From: Kenneth Ong Date: Sun Feb 22, 2004 5:45pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: the self... how?/Jack Hi Jack and James Jack> 1. By having the breath as primary meditation object, the arising of thoughts slow down. I think 99% of all people who have tried meditating can attest to this. k: I dont care the other 99%, my concern is about you. When you first wrote to me When you said you used breath as a meditation subject - that is implying you are focusing and that is controlling. Thoughts can never be slow down, if you can slow down thoughts this mean you can control it. In the suttas, I dont think you can find suttas that said meditations are for slowing of thought. Hence IMHO your meditation is not a correct practise. Jack - 2. As I said in my previous post, I have never met anyone or > read about anyone who has realized the 3 Marks without meditating in a protected environment. Theoretically, it could happen but I don't think it is very likely. James - With that said, the Satipattha Sutta describes sitting meditation that is reinforced and followed through during everyday activities. If there isn't any sitting meditation there won't be the full conditions to follow the practice of mindfulness in everyday activities. This is just common sense. k: This is because both of you do not understand the meaning of satipatthana. When you walk down the street, you meet a beautiful object, if you have to wait later then meditate, the objects will have already condition your future behaviour. If you at the instant known the object as the three characteristic - it would have instantly eradicate lobha and panna. k: Look at the many suttas especially on the six senses, it is describing everyday life. When you meditate, you dont experience sight, what you see as sight in your meditation is only a memory. Do you prefer to meditate on the sense input immediately or prefer to do it in the memory. All our fetters are inflame in passion in the six senses and that is only applicable if you are in daily life momemts and not in meditation bc mediation does not see or taste (i.e. breath meditation). Ken O 30459 From: Kenneth Ong Date: Sun Feb 22, 2004 5:56pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Gradual Training Hi Howard > > -------------------------------------------------- Howard: Aha! He does, does he? Well, keen interest, enthousiasm, and, yes, even hope and desire - those causes of suffering - can lead to useful volition. After all, we start where we are. Howard Hmm, he applies it. Whoops, there's volition! (Maybe 'kamma' > would sound better to some ears.) > ------------------------------------------------- k: Hmm, I think I have said there is very thin line in distinguishing being conditioned by considering dhamma and one that is being condition by a deliberate action. When he applies his will, it is conditioned by his zeal which is condition by all the way to hearing of dhamma. It is clear that he does not purposedly will, he applied it because of considering of dhamma (conditions condition) > ------------------------------------------------ > Howard: > Hmm, he scrutinizes. That must take some will and effort. > (Oh, yes, of course - it *says* that he strives. Oh my, it actually says that he strives *resolutely*!) > ----------------------------------------------- k: When one scrutinizes do one need to purposedly go and scrutinizes. Have you ever suddenly recall an idea and scrutinize it at the moment. After scrutinzes and known it is beneficial, confidence of the dhamma will built up, and that confidence will condition striving and *resolutely* ;-). Ken O 30460 From: kenhowardau Date: Sun Feb 22, 2004 6:46pm Subject: [dsg] Re: the self... how?/sacca Hi Michael, ------------------ M: > What I am saying is that the commentators do not openly reject the idea of conditionality -------------------- That's not much of a commendation is it? :-) -------------------- M: > but that there are influences of substantialism in the explanations and words used. ------------------------ So they do (secretly) reject the idea of conditionality! Otherwise, why are you telling us this? What other significance could there be in the purported fact; "there are influences of substantialism in the explanations and words used?" What have been the consequences of the commentators' rejection of conditionality – the most central tenet of the Buddha's explanation of existence? Where have they said anything that teaches non- conditionality? I think Jon has already asked you this, sorry if I've missed the answer. -------------------------- M: > It is by and large the same process that happens in this list were people use the arguments that dhammas are truly real and ultimate existents while at the same time defend the idea that they are conditioned without realizing that both qualifications are mutually exclusive and incoherent. --------------- You keep telling us the definition of an ultimate reality is; `Something that is not subject to conditions.' Has anyone here accepted that definition? From what source did you acquire it? What explanations were given at the time? Why have you never passed those explanations on to us? --------------- M: > For your information, Ken, since you are not familiar with the writings of Nagarjuna, he did not argue that conditions are real. "Real" has the sense of self dependent and in that sense it is a word that does not correctly reflect his thinking and does not reflect the thinking in the suttas either. Phenomena that are co- dependently arisen cannot be classified as real. They occur, can be experienced, can perform functions but are not actually real. They are not unreal either, they just are. > ----------------- Here at dsg, the definition of a reality, is; `something that occurs, can be experienced and performs functions.' So what are we arguing about? Michael, if you don't like our saying "Dhammas are real," then please delete the words, `are real' and insert, `occur, can be experienced, and perform functions' and we will all get along famously. :-) Kind regards, Ken H 30461 From: Date: Sun Feb 22, 2004 2:24pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: distinction between nama and rupa. Hi, Carl - Thank you for this post of yours. Clearly I spoke too soon and made some unwarranted assumptions, particularly that what is obvious to me need not at all be so to others. I very much regret my use of the expression "cognitive disorder". I thank you for not having taken umbrage at my use of that phrase. With metta, Howard In a message dated 2/22/04 2:27:13 PM Eastern Standard Time, c7carl@y... writes: > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "nidive" > wrote: > >Hi Howard, > > > >Howard: >This issue of distinguishing nama from rupa strikes me as > being much > >>ado about nothing (or, if not "nothing", then at least "not > much"!). > > > >Swee Boon: Might it not occur to you that there are people who > have difficulty > >distinguishing rupa from nama? > > > >Regards, > >Swee Boon > --------------------------------------------- > ---------------------------------------------- > Dear Howard and Swee Boon: > Respectfully, I must confess to being one of those that has had > difficulty distinguishing rupa from nama. It has taken me much > effort and time to realize that "the name is not the form", "the > map is not the ground". To begin to sense that "things" can be > pulled apart to the point of annata was a rather startling (and fun) > concept for me. > > The catagories of nama/rupa were as if a tar pit in my mind. I could > not distinguish between form and feelings. Heck, i couldn't even > distinguish between feelings! i really did not understand what a > feeling was, or that my perception of a "thing" was seperate from > that "thing". I could not distinguish between a tree and "my idea" > of that very same tree. If i touched the tree, that was it, i was > touching the tree. My consciousness seemed as one blended reality, > a tar pit of everything stuck together. No distinction between > what was heard, seen, felt, tasted of smelled. It was all me. I > absolutly existed. No doubt about it. I WAS nama/rupa. I think my > ignorance is not uncommon. I was definatally a dweller in downtown > samsara. > > The Abhidahmma is really good for me, as now i have a place to hang > and seperate each sticky item as i am able to pull it from the tar > pit. Over there on the cetasika rack i have hung feelings, and next > to that is perception and close by is mental formations. And look! > Hanging on the citta rack is consciousness. Ah! the nama closet! > Now on to the rupa closet. :) > > Anyway, the more i understand nama/rupa the less it becomes the trap > of the tar pit. Then i can move on. > > Thanks Carl > > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 30462 From: Date: Sun Feb 22, 2004 2:32pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: distinction between nama and rupa. Hi, Christine - In a message dated 2/22/04 2:42:35 PM Eastern Standard Time, cforsyth@v... writes: > Hello Carl, Swee Boon, Howard, Larry and all, > > Carl - thank you for this post - I was beginning to feel a little > anxious that I was the only one with this 'cognitive disability'. I, > too, could understand intellectually some facts - like Rupa is > physical phenomena that does not experience anything; and Nama is > mental phenomena that experiences something - but still confuse sound > and flavour etc. as mental phenomena. Maybe we could form a support > group for the Phenomenonally Challenged and ask for tutoring from the > Cognitively Abled - that is, if we are not so far beneath their > August notice that it prevents them realising we exist? > (a little mana, perhaps, Howard :-) - that's mental BTW :-)) > > metta and peace, > Christine > ============================ Actually (truly) - it wasn't mana. It was seriously a matter of not thinking at all that people might significantly confuse nama and rupa. The fact that some do, and it obviously is the case that some do, is still truly surprising to me. Had I realized this to be the case, I would certainly not have used the phrase "cognitive disorder", and, as I wrote to Carl, I regret having done so. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 30463 From: Eznir Date: Sun Feb 22, 2004 7:51pm Subject: Why is Dhamma subjective? Dear Friends, Why is Dhamma Subjective? To be subjective is to be conscious of the fact. Consciousness (viññána) depends on name & matter(námarúpa) and vice-versa (paticcasamuppáda). Therefore námarúpa together with the consciousness constitute the experience, ie., the phenomena as it is. That is to say that consciousness cannot be with náma alone nor with rúpa alone. Náma together with its associated rúpa is the dependent condition for the relevant type of consciousness to arise. The Dhamma is most explicit in the 8 attainments. But this is not the only way one could realize the Dhamma. Dhamma is being subjective only when what is stated in the Tripitaka which is Náma only(a description of what the Dhamma is), is seen with its associated rúpa for the corresponding consciousness to arise (experiential knowledge) leading to Right Understanding and Right Deliverance. Metta eznir 30464 From: Sarah Date: Sun Feb 22, 2004 8:54pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: the self... how?/Jack Hi Jack, --- Jackhat1@a... wrote: > Ken O > > I get the sense you are just asking questions to be asking questions. I > don't > think either one of us is getting much out of this. So, this is the last > > questions I will be answering from you for a time. .... Jack, don’t mind our friendly terrier.....most of us have been through his interrogations. I remember in one post to me, soon after he joined DSG, being asked 20 tough questions at one ‘hit’ (or was it 50?). Slowly we all got used to him and we --well, I should say ‘I’ before I get accused again of using a “royal ‘we’”;-)-- missed him a lot when he wasn’t around. [I did think that in a face-to-face meet-up, I might get a ‘so nice to meet you, hope you’re well’ kind of greeting, but instead it was another 20 (or 5O?) rapid-fire questions on intricate details in the Abhidhamma;-)] Actually, it reminds me of a friendly dog that followed me everywhere on the beach in Thailand. I’d be the first out in the mornings and as I’d try to do some stretches, my new friend would insist on getting in the way, digging up the sand and barking if he didn’t approve of the exercise. Then Jon and I’d go for a walk along by the sea shore with Friend-O insisting on keeping us company and attracting all the barks of other mean dogs at the same time. I thought at first that a dive into the surf would do the trick, but then (as Jeff will find out when he resurfaces), Friend-O would be waiting patiently for me to come out, ready to cause more trouble;-). The next day would be the same, but gradually I got used to him and now I’m smiling and wondering if he’ll still be there when I return;-). Truly, Jack, we all sympathise and appreciate your comments and your patience and sincerity in sharing your understanding of ‘practice’ with us. There will be many lurkers on the side-lines in full agreement with what you say, quietly urging you to continue anytime. .... On compassion : > J> If I see clearly, I show compassion and loving kindness toward > > others. This reduces their suffering. .... I appreciate your concern for others and the value you see in developing wisdom and wholesome states in this regard.Please don’t think Ken O is just asking qus for the sake of asking qus. I know this isn’t so, though I might have wondered when I was in the hot-seat;-). .... > k: <...> > then again what is compassion. To me, what I call compassion, is > someone who follow the teachings, attain the path even in the stream > entrant level and teach others how to attain the path. .... Yes, this is the greatest compassion. In this regard, Ken O, I appreciate your compassionate efforts to help us all, however misunderstood they may be;-) Please don’t mind my joking and 'friendly terrier' comments. I have nothing but the greatest respect for your determination to have us all really question our deep-seated views and ideas of practice as you know. Metta, Sarah ===== 30465 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Feb 22, 2004 9:22pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Andy, Love lost / the self... how? Dear Jon, Andy and Howard, op 22-02-2004 08:57 schreef Jonothan Abbott op jonoabb@y...: > Andy Wilson wrote: > ... >> "path consciousness of stream entry cannot occur in the immaterial >> realms because it is contingent on hearing the Dhamma, which >> presupposes the ear faculty" (III, #21c) N: And there is another reason. When born in planes where there is no rupa he cannot learn to distinguish nama from rupa, and continue on with the subsequent stages of insight. Nina. 30466 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Feb 22, 2004 9:22pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Sensing own mind whenever it moves ( 02 ) Hi James, Now your computer is fixed, I resend my post to you. op 19-02-2004 13:29 schreef buddhatrue op buddhatrue@y...: > Let me ask you this Q: >> >> If you talk about/think about trying or striving to do some > chores/be >> aware of the body or breath/or striving to know feelings or mental > factors >> in meditation practice, who or what is `trying', `striving' or > making this >> `effort'? > I am, James Mitchell. That personality of 'James' won't be gone > until enlightenment. Till then, "I" keep on trucking on!! ;-)) N: I must admit that you are right. Even if there can be a moment of sati without thinking, there is still an underlying idea of *me*. A. Sujin was reminding us of this all the time. but the most important, I believe, is to realize that we are in this way. It is better to know than not to know! I also learnt another interesting point. It is the latent tendency of wrong view that is only eradicated at enlightenment, but, by the development of insight, stage by stage, this latent tendency is already in the process of being worn away. Now this sutta gets more meaning: it is a sutta Sarah quoted once to you that you liked. I could not get in Thailand B.B. edition. S III, Khandhavagga, Middle Fifty, ch 5, § 101: This is said of the fetters, but it can also be said of latent tendencies. Please can you help me with B.B.'s notes? That is, if time allows this; since you have to catch up many mails. Nina. 30467 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Feb 22, 2004 9:22pm Subject: Re: [dsg] heartbase and insight knowledge Hi Larry, Yes, I understand. He has mastered jhana. He considers the base of those jhanacittas, and this is the heartbase. Not the sensebases. He cultivated jhana to be away from the sense objects. For us, seeing naturally arises and its base is the eyebase. Thus the jhanalabhi also has to know the difference between nama and rupa, he cannot forgo this step. The rupa he considers would be the heartbase. And after that he contemplates other rupas, the four great elements, etc. op 22-02-2004 17:40 schreef Larry op LBIDD@w...: > I notice in Vism. XVIII that insight knowledge into rupa begins with > the heart-base for one whose vehicle is serenity. How should we take > this? Should we visualize the heart or brain, notice the tangible > data in the heart area or brain area, or what? N: It has nothing to do with brain. Nina. 30468 From: buddhatrue Date: Sun Feb 22, 2004 9:28pm Subject: Re: the self... how?/Jack Hi Ken O, Ken: This is because both of you do not understand the meaning of satipatthana. James: Just because we disagree with you that doesn't mean that we don't understand. Have you ever entertained the possibility that you might be wrong? It seems to me that you are trying to reach a `comfort zone' by cross examining those members here who meditate. What exactly are you trying to prove? I think you need to apply some mindfulness to your hidden motivations in this regard. Ken: When you walk down the street, you meet a beautiful object, if you have to wait later then meditate, the objects will have already condition your future behaviour. James: Hehehe…you have a pretty weird idea of what meditators are like. Meditators don't compartmentalize the dhamma like the followers of K. Sujin do (i.e. effort to clean your house is okay but effort to meditate is not...silly ;-). Meditation is a way to strengthen and center the mind to more naturally see reality whenever and wherever it may be. One is not exclusive of the other. Ken: Look at the many suttas especially on the six senses, it is describing everyday life. James: Look at the many suttas describing meditation. I am not being selective in my understanding of the dhamma, it is pretty apparent that you are. Ken: All our fetters are inflame in passion in the six senses and that is only applicable if you are in daily life momemts and not in meditation bc mediation does not see or taste (i.e. breath meditation). James: Ken, if you can truly see the three characteristics of just one thing, only one thing, that will open the doors to seeing the three characteristics of everything. If you try to see the three characteristics of everything, at the beginning, you will see nothing but yourself. Metta, James 30469 From: Sarah Date: Sun Feb 22, 2004 10:03pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Points of Controversy Hi Michael & All, --- Michael Beisert wrote: M: > I have just received the book "Points of Controversy - Kathavatthu" and > started to read Book I on the Existence of a Personal Entity. I came > across a note on page 54 which has caught my attention, and maybe > someone would care to confirm whether my reading is correct. The > question placed by the Theravadin and the note reads as follows: > > > > [225] The person [you say] is known in the sense of a real and ultimate > fact - is the person conditioned? > > The note at the bottom of the page reads: This is an inquiry into the > nature of 'a real and ultimate [or self dependent] fact.' Comy. > 'Conditioned (sankhata) is, in Buddhist tradition, what has been > prepared, brought about by something else, made, has come together by > conditions. > > .... S: Frankly, I think you’re grasping at straws if a translator comment in a footnote is all you can find to suggest the commentaries conclude that ‘real and ultimate’ or paramattha suggest a self. As others have said, just ignore the misleading translator’s paraphrase in the square brackets. In the more recent commentary translation itself, it only refers to ‘real and ultimate fact’ as defined many times, including here from the dict entry given by Christine: “<-> saccik' attha truth, reality, the highest truth Kvu 1 sq.; DhsA 4 (nearly=paramattha); KhA 102." There is no ‘self’ involved as is made clear in context. A little later in the commentary, we read: “Without self” (upapatti) means deprived of self, of soul, of person. the sense is: even in one and the same quality, there is no ‘person’. Thus the meaning should be understood as said in all the Suttas and Commentaries.” It continues with the examples of ‘butter-jar’ and so on, to show ‘the meaning is not always according to the form of what is said’. I’ve quoted these examples many times. Then it continues: “Even in such expressions as ‘there is the person who works for his own good’ (Diii,232) and so on, there is no such person as bodily and mental aggregates, known in their specific and general senses. Given bodily and mental aggregates, it is customary to say such and such a name, a family. thus, by this popular turn of speech, convention, expression, is meant: “there is the person.” This is the sense here. Hereon it was also said by the Exalted One: “These, Citta, are merely names, expressions, terms of speech, designations in common use in the world.” (Di,263). .... M: > My understanding is that a conditioned thing is the opposite of a self > dependent thing, i.e. a conditioned thing exists by virtue of internal > and external conditions, and apart from those conditions it is > impossible for that thing to exist, while a self dependent thing is > something that does not depend on conditions but depends on something > intrinsic to it for its existence. .... S: Paramattha dhammas (real and ultimate dhammas) depend on conditions to arise, to exist temporarily and to fall. Concepts, illusions (including ideas of self) are not conditioned as they don’t exist except as mere 'convention or expression'. .... M: > My reading of the note is that a real and ultimate fact is a self > dependent fact, i.e. not subject to conditions. Any comments? ... S:See comments above. In another post you wrote (to Howard): >In the example of the chariot are you implying that the chariot is not real but the parts are? Because this is the what the paramatha/paññatti believers argue, i.e., the being is not real and not existent but the parts, the khandhas and dhammas are real and existent.< .... The being is not real and there are no parts of that being. What are taken to be the being, i.e the khandhas, are real and existent. From the Samyutta Nikaya study corner as quoted by Christine: SN I Sagaathaavagga 5 Bhikhunisamyutta 10 Vajiraa <...> "Why now do you assume 'a being'? Maara, is that your speculative view? This is a heap of sheer formations: Here no being is found. [S: no being, no self, no entity, merely 5 khandhas] "Just as, with an assemblage of parts, The word 'chariot' is used, So, when the aggregates exist, [S; EXIST - aggregates which are formations, conditioned, arising and falling away] There is the convention 'a being.' [S; conventional truth only - an illusion because of the combination of aggregates]. "It's only suffering that comes to be, Suffering that stands and falls away. Nothing but suffering comes to be, Nothing but suffering ceases." [S: only aggregates are conditioned, impermanent and unsatisfactory - no being at all]. The suttas, Abhidhamma and commentaries are all pointing to exactly the same truths. Metta, Sarah ===== 30470 From: Date: Sun Feb 22, 2004 5:39pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Why is Dhamma subjective? Hi, Eznir - In a message dated 2/22/04 10:54:23 PM Eastern Standard Time, eznir2003@y... writes: > Dear Friends, > > Why is Dhamma Subjective? > > To be subjective is to be conscious of the fact. Consciousness > (viññána) depends on name &matter(námarúpa) and vice-versa > (paticcasamuppáda). Therefore námarúpa together with the > consciousness constitute the experience, ie., the phenomena as it is. > > That is to say that consciousness cannot be with náma alone nor with > rúpa alone. Náma together with its associated rúpa is the dependent > condition for the relevant type of consciousness to arise. > > The Dhamma is most explicit in the 8 attainments. But this is not the > only way one could realize the Dhamma. > > Dhamma is being subjective only when what is stated in the Tripitaka > which is Náma only(a description of what the Dhamma is), is seen with > its associated rúpa for the corresponding consciousness to arise > (experiential knowledge) leading to Right Understanding and Right > Deliverance. > > Metta > > eznir > ============================ I believe that subjectivity - the sense of a knowing subject - is illusory, and, correspondingly, objectivity as well. Now, there is in the worldling the seeming of a subject confronted by objects. That seeming subjective knowing is vi~n~nana, and the seeming corresponding "knowns" are namarupa, and they are mutually dependent, like two sheaves of reeds supporting each other. The potential for such apparent subjectivity and objectivity is the heart of ignorance, the fatal flaw all worldlings have. What is actual is experience, with physical experiences such as sights, sounds, tastes, smells, hardness, and warmth being rupas, and mental experiences such as feelings, thoughts, attention, volitions, emotions, and distractedness being namas. And in experience as it truly is, there is neither subject nor object, but there is, for us worldlings, the *seeming* of both. Ignorance is a necessary condition for sankharic constructing. Sankharic constructing is necessary condition for subjectivity. Subjectivity and objectivity are conditions for each other. The two of these, the knowing and the known together, arise only with sensory activation, and the co-occurrence of the three is contact. With contact as a condition, there arises subject-oriented feeling ("It's pleasant to me" or "It's unpleasant to me" or "It's neutral to me"). With feeling (contaminated by sense of self) as condition there arises craving, which hardens to clinging. Then clinging leads to becoming - a movement in the direction of renewed ignorance (and, at life's end, to a new realm of experience). That rebirth of ignorance is mainly the birth of a new/modified personal identity, and that newborn, beloved and clung-to identity, being impermanent as are all conditioned dhammas, meets with eventual death, a loss of that particular sense of me and mine as conditions change, and there results the entire mass of suffering. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 30471 From: Kenneth Ong Date: Sun Feb 22, 2004 11:03pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: the self... how?/Jack Hi James > James: Just because we disagree with you that doesn't mean that we > don't understand. Have you ever entertained the possibility that > you might be wrong? It seems to me that you are trying to reach > a `comfort zone' by cross examining those members here who > meditate. What exactly are you trying to prove? I think you need to apply some mindfulness to your hidden motivations in this regard. k: James, if you can answer my cross examination with the correct answer, I will not bother you with questions of dhamma. It is what I think that you still do not get the gist of what is satipatthana and you are just wondering in circles and that its why I bother you. I may seem arrogant to you, that I cannot help, but I wish to express that you consider what I say. Think deeply what I say and laid down what you have known for years. Just like I laid down my Mahayana that i have learn for seven years and listen to what other have said in this list. I already said I dont disparage others - that will not get anyone anywhere. If you are confident in your own interpretation of the dhammas, you will have answer with ease and with fluency and justifying your position and not say we belong to the *A Sujin* group. If you want, you can cross examine me, test my understanding of the sutta. Even if I dont see the commentary, I have confidence in answering your examinations. That is how much confidence I have. Its ok if you think I am arrogant ;-). > > James: Hehehe…you have a pretty weird idea of what meditators are > like. Meditators don't compartmentalize the dhamma like the > followers of K. Sujin do (i.e. effort to clean your house is okay > but effort to meditate is not...silly ;-). Meditation is a way to > strengthen and center the mind to more naturally see reality > whenever and wherever it may be. One is not exclusive of the other. k: That why I said you do not understand the meaning of satipatthana. You only think the three characteristics can only be study when one in meditation. If you look at MN 10 Satipatthana sutta, this part may support your perspective <<"Here, O bhikkhus, a bhikkhu, gone to the forest, to the foot of a tree, or to an empty place, sits down, bends in his legs crosswise on his lap, keeps his body erect, and arouses mindfulness in the object of meditation, namely, the breath which is in front of him.>> Then how about this part "And further, O bhikkhus, when he is going, a bhikkhu understands: 'I am going'; when he is standing, he understands: 'I am standing'; when he is sitting, he understands: 'I am sitting'; when he is lying down, he understands: 'I am lying down'; or just as his body is disposed so he understands it. The again this part "And further, O bhikkhus, a bhikkhu, in going forwards (and) in going backwards, is a person practicing clear comprehension; in looking straight on (and) in looking away from the front, is a person practicing clear comprehension; in bending and in stretching, is a person practicing clear comprehension; in wearing the shoulder-cloak, the (other two) robes (and) the bowl, is a person practicing clear comprehension; in regard to what is eaten, drunk, chewed and savored, is a person practicing clear comprehension; in defecating and in urinating, is a person practicing clear comprehension; in walking, in standing (in a place), in sitting (in some position), in sleeping, in waking, in speaking and in keeping silence, is a person practicing clear comprehension. Then again "Thus, indeed, O bhikkhus, a bhikkhu lives contemplating consciousness in consciousness." - note the word lives (so includes everything not just sitting down) So now you tell me, does satipatthana only apply in sitting down. I do not need the commentary to convince you that satipatthana is not sitting down only. I just using the sati text only. We can go into it word by word if you wish to, to examine whether what I say about satipatthana is correct or not. Ken O 30472 From: Sarah Date: Sun Feb 22, 2004 11:25pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: distinction between nama and rupa. Hi Howard, Victor and All, A little more on namas and rupas in the suttas.... .... H: I agree with you, Victor, that making the distinction between > mental > and physical, which, BTW, I think pretty much all human beings do quite > easily > for the most part, is not a suttic teaching of the Buddha's. ..... S: When there is an idea that distinguishing namas from rupas is obvious and common to most people, I think it suggests the deep meaning has not been fully appreciated. At this moment, is there any clear understanding of seeing or visible object? Is the distinction apparent? Are they clearly understood as dhammas, not self? As Swee Boon said, the teaching of and distinction between namas and rupas runs throughout the suttas. SB: “If one can’t even get the distinction between rupa and nama right, how could one even get the distinction between the five aggregates right?” S: Without this clear understanding (not just smart thinking), I don't think there cannot be the deeper understanding of the tilakhana, paticca, the 4 Noble Truths which are more advanced understandings of the nature of namas and rupas.** .... H: > Now, if it were said that clearly distinguishing between what is > actual experience and what is illusion is a sign of right understanding, > I would > agree. <....> .... S: Without any direct understanding of namas and rupas, illusions will always be taken for realities as I see it. While the details about the stages of insight are not given in detail in the suttas, often the meaning is implied. For example, in SN, 35:26 (Full Understanding), we read: “Bhikkhus, without directly knowing and fully understanding the all, without developing dispassion towards it and abandoning it, one is incapable of destroying suffering.”* .... S:It would seem there is nothing about stages or knowledge or distinguishing of namas and rupas. However, as the commentary note indicates, “in this sutta the three kinds of full understanding are discussed: full understanding of the known, full understanding by scrutinization, and full understanding as abandonment.” B.Bodhi gives cross-references to other suttas and notes which are similar. The three pari~n~naas (kinds of full understanding) are the three kinds of knowledge which refer to the detailed stages of insight given in the commentaries. The first one is ~naata-pari~n~naa and refers to full understanding of the known. In the commentary to the Mulapariyaya sutta, we read about how ‘the defining of mentality-materiality (nama-rupa-vavatthaana) is the full understanding of the known’,in other words the first stage of insight. “Therein, what is the full understanding of the known? He fully understands the earth element [S: pathavi dhatu] thus: “This is the internal earth element, this the external. This is its characteristic, this its function, manifestation, and proximate cause.” ..... S: And so it continues for the other elements, showing how different this understanding is for the ariyan than for the worldling who conceives all sorts of wrong ideas about the elements, taking them for self. As we’ve seen in the Samyutta corner, often a few words in a sutta carry a lot of meaning. I’ve discussed these verses before from SN1:20 (Samiddhi): “Beings who perceive what can be expressed Become established in what can be expressed. Not fully understanding what can be expressed, They come under the yoke of Death. “But having fully understood what can be expressed, One does not conceive ‘one who expresses.’ For that does not exist for him By which one could describe him." ..... S: Again, How many of us can appreciate these verses without clarification from the commentaries.? B.Bodhi adds quite a lot of commentary detail here. In brief:”Spk: ‘what can be expressed’ (akkheyya) are the 5 aggregates.... ‘Beings who perceive what can be expressed’ (akkheyyasa~n`nino sattaa): When ordinary beings perceive the five aggregates, their perceptions are affected by the ideas of permanence,pleasure, and self, elsewhere called ‘distortions’(vipallaasa, AN 11 52). These distorted perceptions then provoke defilements, on account of which beings ‘become established in what can be expressed’(akkeyyasmi.m pati.t.thitaa).’.....” The commentary explains the second verse in a similar way to the first sutta in terms of the 3 pari~n~nas. “Spk: One ‘fully understands what can be expressed’ by way of the three kinds of full understanding: i) by full understanding of the known (~Naatapari~n~naa) one understnds the five aggregates in terms of their individual characteristics etc...” ..... S:In other words, again this is pointing to the stages of insight, starting with the defining of understanding of nama and rupa as explained above. I had other suttas I had also planned to look at, but there is so much detail in each one. It just depends how we read them. In the first sutta quoted, the ‘all’ are the eye, visible object, seeing, eye-contact and just the same realities as described in the sutta Swee Boon quoted (post 30337), the Satipatthana sutta or any other. Hence we see that the development of satipatthana, the knowing of the ‘all’, aka namas and rupas, can be found in any sutta with clear comprehension of the meaning.As Miss Horner stated, the commentary assistance is often essential in this regard. Metta, Sarah *All translations given are Bhikkhu bodhi’s. ** Highly recommended post by Kom on vipassana nana or insight knowledge levels starting with nama-rupa paricheda nana. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/23868 ======= 30473 From: Sarah Date: Sun Feb 22, 2004 11:37pm Subject: Larry's nama rupa (was Catching Anger) Hi Larry, --- LBIDD@w... wrote: > Hi Howard, > > I agree. The sutta doesn't explain the stages it mentions. One point: > the knowledge of nama and rupa isn't so much about distinguishing nama > from rupa as it is about the composite nature of nama and the composite > nature of rupa. What initially appears as one is seen to be (experienced > as) many. .... Sorry, Larry, but this makes no sense to me. Maybe you could elaborate. Only ever one reality is known at a time.For example, when there is awareness of seeing or thinking, its characteristic as a nama can be known. There is no doubt at that moment that it is visible object or self that sees. The doubt, the taking for self and so on can follow immediately after whilst the panna is still weak. .. >This is a glimpse of anatta. Of course distinguishing nama > from rupa is a preliminary stage of this process. ... OK. Thanks also for your other reference to M24 and the 7 stages of insight. I’m sorry, but I didn’t find Matara Sri ~Nanarama’s version a simplified one, rather as a very confused one. Metta, Sarah p.s Good work by you and Nina in the Vism corner. ======= 30474 From: Sarah Date: Sun Feb 22, 2004 11:44pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Sensing own mind whenever it moves ( 02 ) Hi Htoo, --- htootintnaing wrote: > Dear James and Sarah, > > When we meet a person, we do not have a particular thought related to > that person.But soon after we are inroduced to that person there the > idea of 'self' has already been introduced along with conventional > introduction. Just thinking. .... I think that as soon as we see 'a person' or hear 'a person', there is thinking and an idea of 'someone' long before any words are formed or any introductions take place. The conceptualising through the mind door follows the sense door experiences very quickly indeed. Metta, Sarah ====== 30475 From: Sarah Date: Mon Feb 23, 2004 0:08am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sensing own mind whenever it moves ( 02 ) Hi Htoo, S: I was looking for this post when I came across the other one. Apologies for the delay. I’m glad to get back to our packing, map and journey after a busy weekend. --- htootintnaing wrote: > > Htoo: Breaking the circle up. > > Citta, Cetasika, Rupa at the site of Sankhata Dhatu and Nibbana at > the site of Asankhata Dhatu. > > If you lose yourself and you have been merged with Paramattha, yes > there are only 3 things in the circle. And the breaking of the circle > again has to do with these 3 things again. .... S: Whether we talk or don’t talk about cittas, cetasikas and rupas, whether they are known or unknown, still there are only these realities existing, wouldn’t you agree? .... > But if you have not lost yourself and you are talking cittas, > cetasikas and rupas, you are learning theories of cittas, cetasikas, > and rupas. But not other certain way. > -------------------------------------------------------------- S: I understand you’re saying that theory and practice are differnt. I agree. Still, the truths remain the same. Ultimately there is no self existing at all - no self to be lost or anything else. It never existed in the first place except in our imaginations. .... > Htoo: While you are living in Pannatta domain your talk on Paramattha > would be different. Someone once wrote, ' A citta and a group of > cetasikas enter a room '. > --------------------------------------------------------------... S:;-) Even an arahant ‘lives in pannatta domain’ in the sense of having to use pannatti - just no misconceptions. It’s not a case of the language, but the understanding behind it. -------- > Htoo: Learn on the way. Arising is conditions related. No one can > choice. As you said, there was no Sumedho but citta and a group of > cetasikas and pannindriya cetasika arose. Cittas and Cetasikas arose > and fell away continuously and Cittas and Cetasikas failed to arise > over 2600 years back. > -------------------------------------------------------------- S: I agree with the first part, but don’t understand the last sentence. .... -------- > Htoo: Got it. But you seem eradicated Atta but still with traces. > Even though you have thrown away it will creep in back into your bag. > -------------------------------------------------------------- S: yes, there can be a moment of understanding now of seeing or feeling or visible object and this can be immediately followed by the idea of a thing or ‘my understanding’. It can sneak in anytime. -------- > Htoo: So you have right materials? > -------------------------------------------------------------- S: What are the right materials? I’m not sure ‘we’ ever have them or that they can be collected at the outset. If there are the right conditions, don’t fear, they’ll arise accordingly. In your new series (sensing dhamma 02), you mention ‘contemplation on dhamma has to arise when dhamma in different situations have been well recognized.’ However, then you go on to discuss how ‘at first, the meditator practised breathing meditation on his breath. In doing so, there develops some achievement.’ As you continue to explain, all the realities are in fact namas and rupas and you’ve said in this post ‘Arising is conditions related. No one can choice’. So my question is, what is the purpose of practising breathing meditation and what is the special achievement? I hope this doesn’t sound impolite or disrespectful. I’m still trying to understand your tools and map and the reasons for the ‘choices’;-) .... -------- > Htoo: I really appreciate your kind communication. > > May you be free of wrong view. > > With Unlimited Metta, .... S:Thank you Htoo. These are very kind wishes,especially the wishing that we may be free of wrong view. Metta, Sarah p.s I like your comments about the five niyamas in another thread. ===================== 30476 From: Sarah Date: Mon Feb 23, 2004 0:48am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Andy, Love lost / the self... how? Hi Andy, --- Andy Wilson wrote: > Andy: When I read this I laughed out loud at my expression > 'transplanting the core of buddhism into western soil' because it sounds > so pompous :) ..... S: :) It’s a good sign that you’re laughing at your own words I think. ... A:>I think that by 'western soil' I really only meant 'my > mind', which, of course, is full of views and asssumptions i took from > the culture i was born into. i'm embarrased to have used such a cliche > ;) .... S: Sometimes when I read over my posts I feel embarrassed too. Usually it’s just an indication of mana (conceit or pride - waving a banner and finding ourselves important);-) .... > Andy: I really hope I haven't given any other impression. Painful and > angry feelings have very much been mixed in with the feelings of love > and care I have for my (ex-)partner. The problem has been to control all > those feelings so that they aren't overwhelming, which is like taming a > bag of fleas. .... S:Control is a BIG topic here. Anything I say will be a minority view and fully supported by the texts whatever Victor and others tell you to the contrary;-) ;-) Conventionally we can talk about controlling our feelings, but in truth, they arise and fall as a result of a complexity of conditions. Being distressed that they aren’t better ‘controlled’ just adds more aversion (dosa) to the heap. Understanding with detachment is the key, I think. .... >In reality so-called 'opposite' feelings mingle and give > rise to one another. Sometimes the feeling of anger is there *because* > of feelings of love: ie. I'm angry because my love is no longer > reciprocated, and my partner's love is now for someone else. .... S: Attachment is the 2nd Noble Truth - the cause of suffering. Clinging love with expectations always brings distress. Of course, we all experience this kind of love and attachment countless times a day. .... > In a > perfect world I'd feel love without risking rejection, sadness, etc. The > problem is that the feelings of love I do have aren't based in > equanimity but are bound up instead with my clinging to self, where i > *identify* with the feeling, so that if it isn't reciprocated my > existence itself seems threatened. ..... S: Exactly. Try looking in UP under ‘Love’ and ‘Metta’ to see the distinction. The following is from one of my favourite suttas: >After King Pasenadi and Queen Mallika concluded that indeed there was no one dearer than themselves, the Buddha spoke these lines in Udana, 5-1, ‘Dear’ (Masefield trans): ‘Having explored all quarters with the mind, one would simply not attain that dearer than the self in any place; thus is the self dear separately to others- therefore one desiring self should not harm another.’< .... >If I identify with my self then any > threat to it is a threat to my existence. This is frightening to the > extent that I cling to my 'self' as being my existence (what i 'really > am'). I can accept the idea of anatta conceptually but still be > overwhelmed with panic when i feel my 'identity' threatened. .... S: That’s because it seems there is something to be lost. All that will ever be lost with any growth of wisdom is the wrong view and attachment to an illusion. With or without the Buddha’s teachings it can be tested and seen that there are only the sense door experiences and the mind door experiences. .... > Andy: This practical, piecemeal attitude sounds attractive. I'm > constantly amazed at my ability to leap into new ideas, draw conclusions > and pass judgement, sorting them into 'good' and 'bad' ideas, long > before i've any real grasp of what they mean. i do the same with people > too :) .... S: We all do. There’s almost complete ignorance of the realities we’re experiencing now (I’m using we conventionally) and yet we have the conceit to think we can understand others;-) No problem, there can be understanding developed even when we’re ‘leaping into new ideas’ or ‘passing judgement’. Just kinds of thinking (namas). .... > That reminds me of something that occured to me of late: the way > we construct our sense of others based on our own prejudice and > obsessions, and how we impose this sense on them, forcing them to fit > our projected sense of our own self. I mean, we not only construct our > own identity mistakenly but do the same for others too. ..... S: Attachment and expectations again.... very, very common;-) .... >No matter how > close we are to them or for how long we've known them this needs > constant attention because we are always being pulled that way, like a > planet pulled in toward its star. ..... S: This is why the Dhamma and the understanding of realities is the only true refuge. Don’t be too hard on yourself - the same problems are common to all of us. .... > As well as trying to control hurtful feelings about the end of > the relationship (or rather, to stop them controlling me) I think I need > to address this question, which has less to do with how I feel about > myself than how I see others. I'd like to learn how to let others be > without forcing them into my idea of what and who they are (and I tend > to be just this sort of controlling person). ..... S: This is why it’s important to understand anatta means nothing can be controlled in an ultimate sense. Can you stop hurtful feelings arising? Impossible, otherwise, we’d all do it. .... > My regret is that I've lived with someone I love for seven years > now and didn't know how to let them be happy on their own terms, so that > I could support them in this rather than moulding them to my own > understanding. .... S: So regret is more dosa.Living in the past instead of letting it go. Join our Samyutta Nikaya corner: SN1:10 (Forest) “They do not sorrow over the past, Nor do they hanker for the future. They maintain themselves with what is present: Hence their complexion is so serene. “Through hankering for the future, Through sorrowing over the past, Fools dry up and wither away Like a green reed cut down.” .... >I feel that despite my love for that person I let them > down due to ignorance, inexperience and clinging. I find myself wishing > hard that I could have made them happier: not to stop them from leaving > now but really so that I could have given them more happiness in the > time we did have together. It strikes me that to love someone and yet > treat them this way is the definition of 'unskilled'. .... S: It’s all gone like a puff of smoke. No need to be a ‘dried up fool’. Just let it go. Only the present moment and realities ever exist and if there’s a lot of thinking and regretting now, it’s quite useless. Crying over spilt milk as Nina says;-) ..... > Andy: This seems to me to be an excellent point - without tradition > there'd be nothing to transmute. I am learning to love this 'artful', > practical streak in Buddhism. I read something in the AS this morning > that made me laugh out loud for similar reasons; > > "path consciousness of stream entry cannot occur in the immaterial > realms because it is contingent on hearing the Dhamma, which presupposes > the ear faculty" (III, #21c) ..... S: or the eye faculty for internet reading;-) Good quote. Pls keep adding your selected quotes. .... > > of course! you need ears in order to hear the dhamma! i don't know why > that seems funny, but it's like someone saying something very profane > and down-to-earth in church. > > on that slightly brighter note than my usual... .... S: That’s great. It’s another real cliche, but sometimes very good things do come out of very difficult things and your keen interest in the Dhamma seems like a very good thing for you and us;-) Metta, Sarah p.s Keep writing - it can be very therapeutic in itself. ============ 30477 From: christine_forsyth Date: Mon Feb 23, 2004 1:13am Subject: Seeking sutta reference + Rob K message Dear Robert K and Everyone, This is an excerpt from a discussion on Dhamma List. We can't find the actual sutta that this quote comes from and the person that originally made the quote Stephen Hilliard has suggested I ask here. Any help would be appreciated. ------------------------------------ "--- In dhamma-list@yahoogroups.com, oreznoone@a... wrote: > CF:> >It's a pity that the sutta ref. can't be found > Stephen: > If you wish perhaps you can ask on DSG; Robert K, among others, is quite good > at this sort of thing. I hope he's well, and remember him with pleasure. > Please say Hello for me." ---------------------------------------- QUOTE: "On one occasion, while Venerable Sariputta was sitting, listening respectfully at his feet as the Buddha expounded the Dhamma, the Buddha turned to him and asked, "Sariputta, do you believe this teaching?" Venerable Sariputta replied, "No, I don't yet believe it." Now this is a good illustration. Venerable Sariputta listened, and he took note. When he said he didn't yet believe he wasn't being careless, he was speaking the truth. He simply took note of that teaching, because he had not yet developed his own understanding of it, so he told the Buddha that he didn't yet believe -- because he really didn't believe. These words almost sound as if Venerable Sariputta was being rude, but actually he wasn't. He spoke the truth, and the Buddha praised him for it. "Good, good, Sariputta. A wise person doesn't readily believe, he should consider first before believing." http://www.dhamma.com/eng/lpch/food6.html metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- 30478 From: rjkjp1 Date: Mon Feb 23, 2004 1:28am Subject: Re: Seeking sutta reference + Rob K message Dear Christine, Give my regards to Stephen; may his faith in the Triple gem continue to grow. This is probably the sutta he is looking for: http://www.tipitaka.net/tipitaka/dhp/verseload.php?verse=097 Dhammapada Verse 97 Thirty bhikkhus from a village had arrived at the Jetavana monastery to pay homage to the Buddha. The Buddha knew that the time was ripe for those bhikkhus to attain arahatship. So, he sent for Sariputta, and in the presence of those bhikkhus, he asked, "My son Sariputta, do you accept the fact that by meditating on the senses one could realize Nibbana ?" Sariputta answered, "Venerable Sir, in the matter of the realization of Nibbana by meditating on the senses, it is not that I accept it because I have faith in you; it is only those who have not personally realized it, that accept the fact from others." Sariputta's answer was not properly understood by the bhikkhus; they thought, "Sariputta has not given up wrong views yet; even now, he has no faith in the Buddha." Then the Buddha explained to them the true meaning of Sariputta's answer. "Bhikkhus, Sariputta's answer is simply this; he accepts the fact that Nibbana is realized by means of meditation on the senses, but his acceptance is due to his own personal realization and not merely because I have said it or somebody else has said it. Sariputta has faith in me; he also has faith in the consequences of good and bad deeds." Then the Buddha spoke in verse as follows: Sariputtatthera Vatthu Assaddho akatannu ca sandhicchedo ca yo naro hatavakaso vantaso1 sa ve uttamaporiso. Verse 97. He who is not credulous, who has realized the Unconditioned (Nibbana), who has cut off the links of the round of rebirths, who has destroyed all consequences of good and bad deeds, who has discarded all craving, is indeed the noblest of all men (i.e., an arahat). At the end of the discourse, all those bhikkhus attained arahatship. RobertK In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Dear Robert K and Everyone, > > This is an excerpt from a discussion on Dhamma List. We can't find > the actual sutta > ------------------------------------ > "--- In dhamma-list@yahoogroups.com, oreznoone@a... wrote: > > > CF:> >It's a pity that the sutta ref. can't be found > > > Stephen: > If you wish perhaps you can ask on DSG; Robert K, among > others, is quite good > > at this sort of thing. I hope he's well, and remember him with > pleasure. > > Please say Hello for me." > ---------------------------------------- > QUOTE: > "On one occasion, while Venerable Sariputta was sitting, listening > respectfully at his feet as the Buddha expounded the Dhamma, the > Buddha turned to him and asked, "Sariputta, do you believe this > teaching?" > Venerable Sariputta replied, "No, I don't yet believe it." Now this > is a good illustration. Venerable Sariputta listened, and he took > note. When he said he didn't yet believe he wasn't being careless, he > was speaking the truth. He simply took note of that teaching, because > he had not yet developed his own understanding of it, so he told the > Buddha that he didn't yet believe -- because he really didn't > believe. These words almost sound as if Venerable Sariputta was being > rude, but actually he wasn't. He spoke the truth, and the Buddha > praised him for it. > "Good, good, Sariputta. A wise person doesn't readily believe, he > should consider first before believing." > http://www.dhamma.com/eng/lpch/food6.html > > metta and peace, > Christine > ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- 30479 From: Sarah Date: Mon Feb 23, 2004 1:45am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Catching Anger Dear Eznir (& Philip), S:You’ve picked up on the thread of ‘directing’ attachment in ‘as wholesome a direction as possible’. Yours is a very interesting post. Let me know if I misunderstand as I feel I may be. --- Eznir wrote: > Dear Sarah & Philip. > > "Monks, for anyone who says, 'In whatever way a person makes kamma, > that is how it is experienced,' there is no living of the holy life, > there is no opportunity for the right ending of stress. When a person > makes kamma to be felt in such & such a way, that is how its result > is experienced,' there is the living of the holy life, there is the > opportunity for the right ending of stress." > [Lonaphala Sutta AN-III.99 ] .... S:I just read the full sutta. (PTS ‘A grain of salt’ and it’s a really excellent one - relevant to the Anugulimala and others along the ‘justice of kamma’ lines. The grain of salt relates to the examples given of throwing a grain of salt into a cup of water and into the Ganges. the effect is quite different as is the performing of a small misdeed in one who is careless in body, habits and thoughs and who has not developed insight as opposed to one who develops insight and becomes fully enlightened. Do you have a link for others to read in full? ..... E:> One of the differences between a Puthujjana(ordinary person) and a > Sekha(one in training) is the Kamma, ones actions. The actions of a > Puthujjana is misdirected with respect to Nibbana. While that of a > Sekha is directed towards Nibbana, the goal. Therefore whenever one > performs an action it should be directed. .... S: Certainly for the sekha there is no more wrong view and I suppose we can say as you do that the actions are ‘directed towards Nibbana’ in the sense that it’s just a matter of time before all defilements are finally eradicated and samsara comes to an end. Still, I don’t think we can talk about unwholesome actions being directed in a wholesome direction. Who does this directing? How can anything unwholesome be changed or directed once it’s arisen and fallen away? .... E: > "And what is new kamma? Whatever kamma one does now with the body, > with speech, or with the intellect: This is called new kamma". > [Kamma Sutta SN-XXXV.145 ] > > And what is the path of practice leading to the cessation of kamma? > Just this noble eightfold path: right view, right resolve, right > speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right > mindfulness, right concentration. This is called the path of practice > leading to the cessation of kamma. " > [Kamma Sutta SN-XXXV.145 ] > > And how does one direct kamma? Through ones intentions. Intention is > action. First having intended one acts. The direction of this > Intention should be towards practicing the noble 8-fold path. Why? > Because it leads to the cessation of Kamma, ie., Nibbana. ..... S: Howard will like these comments a lot;-) My difficulty with them is that while I agree that ‘intention is action’, intention (cetana cetasika) is also conditioned. Who or what directs this intention? In another thread on nama and rupa, I think you suggested that the difference between these ‘is not in the things in itself....It is our mental fabrications that construct various stories about the things we cognize’. I think I partly agree and partly disagree, if I understan correctly. Namas and rupas are always distinct, but as you say various stories are constructed around these. I’ll leave it there as I may be misrepresenting you. Look f/w to any comments. Apologies in advance for delayed responses. Metta, Sarah ===== 30480 From: rjkjp1 Date: Mon Feb 23, 2004 1:46am Subject: Re: Seeking sutta reference + Rob K message Dear Christine, Here are two more suttas where the Buddha and Sariputta discuss the faculty of saddha (faith) From Nina van Gorkom's book 'Conditions' """The faculty of panna overcomes ignorance of the four noble Truths. The five spiritual faculties have to be developed together so that the four noble Truths can be realized. These faculties will not develop merely by having faith in one's teacher, one has to develop them oneself. We read in the "Kindred Sayings" (V, Book IV, Kindred Sayings on the Faculties, Ch V, §4, Eastern Gatehouse) that the Buddha, while he was staying at Savatthi, in Eastern Gatehouse, asked Sariputta: "Do you believe, Sariputta, that the controlling faculty of faith... of energy... of mindfulness... of concentration... that the controlling faculty of insight, if cultivated and made much of, plunges into the Deathless, has the Deathless for its goal, the Deathless for its ending?" The "Deathless" is nibbana. We read that Sariputta answered: "In this matter, lord, I walk not by faith in the Exalted One, to wit: that the controlling faculty of faith... of energy... of mindfulness... of concentration... that the controlling faculty of insight, if cultivated and made much of, plunges into the Deathless, has the Deathless for its goal, the Deathless for its ending. They, lord, who have not realized, not seen, not understood, not made sure of, not attained this fact by insight,-- such may well walk by faith in others (in believing) that the controlling faculty of faith... that of insight, if cultivated and made much of, may so end. But, lord, they who have realized, seen, understood, made sure of, they who have attained this fact by insight,-- such are free from doubt, free from wavering, (in believing) that the controlling faculty of faith, of energy, of mindfulness, of concentration, of insight, if cultivated and made much of... will so end. But I, lord, have realized it, I have seen, understood and made sure of it, I have attained it by insight, I am free from doubt about it, that the controlling faculty of faith, of energy, of mindfulness, of concentration, of insight, does plunge into the Deathless, has the Deathless for its goal, the Deathless for its ending." We then read that the Buddha approved of Sariputta's words. We read in the same section of the "Kindred Sayings" (§10, Faith) that the Buddha, while staying among the Angas at Market, asked Sariputta: "Tell me, Sariputta, could an ariyan disciple who is utterly devoted to, who has perfect faith in the Tathagata,-- could an ariyan disciple have any doubt or wavering as to the Tathagata or the Tathagata's teaching?" Sariputta said that the ariyan disciple who has perfect faith in the Tathagata could have no doubt as to the Tathagata or his teaching and that he develops the controlling faculties of faith, energy, mindfulness, concentration and insight. We read that he said about the controlling faculty of insight: "Again, lord, of a faithful ariyan disciple who is established in mindfulness, whose thought is tranquillized, this may be expected: he will fully understand `A world without end is the round of rebirth. No beginning can be seen of beings hindered by ignorance, bound by craving, who run on, who fare on through the round of rebirth. The utter passionless ceasing of ignorance, of this body of darkness, is this blissful state, this excellent state, to wit:- the calming down of all the activities, the giving up of all bases (for rebirth), the destruction of craving, dispassion, cessation, nibbana.' His insight, lord, is the controlling faculty of insight. Lord, that faithful ariyan disciple, thus striving and striving again, thus recollecting again and again, thus again and again composing his mind, thus clearly discerning again and again, gains utter confidence, when he considers: `As to those things which formerly I had only heard tell of, now I dwell having experienced them in my own person: now by insight have I pierced them through and see them plain.' Herein, lord, his confidence is the controlling faculty of confidence." We then read that the Buddha approved of Sariputta's words."""" Robertk > ---------------------------------------- > QUOTE: > "On one occasion, while Venerable Sariputta was sitting, listening > respectfully at his feet as the Buddha expounded the Dhamma, the > Buddha turned to him and asked, "Sariputta, do you believe this > teaching?" > Venerable Sariputta replied, "No, I don't yet believe it." Now this > is a good illustration. Venerable Sariputta listened, and he took > note. When he said he didn't yet believe he wasn't being careless, he > was speaking the truth. He simply took note of that teaching, because > he had not yet developed his own understanding of it, so he told the > Buddha that he didn't yet believe -- because he really didn't > believe. These words almost sound as if Venerable Sariputta was being > rude, but actually he wasn't. He spoke the truth, and the Buddha > praised him for it. > "Good, good, Sariputta. A wise person doesn't readily believe, he > should consider first before believing." > http://www.dhamma.com/eng/lpch/food6.html > > metta and peace, > Christine > ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- 30481 From: Sarah Date: Mon Feb 23, 2004 2:01am Subject: Re: [dsg] compound and concept Hi Toby, This post is just an excuse for me to say I'm really glad to see you posting after a long break and delighted that you've joined in the Vism corner. Pls keep up your comments and qus. --- torloff87048 wrote: > The same is true of the even more difficult to grasp heart-base: It > is directly known as heat in the cavity of the heart while citta and > cetasika are present. This is the reason the heart-base is said to > be the blood in the cavity of the heart. There is a reference for > this in the Canon but unfortunately I can't locate it- I think I came > across it somewhere in Conditional Relations (which does not have an > index in my edition!). ..... I find the same thing rather frustrating about Conditional Relations (Patthana). I assume it's this and not the 'Guide to Conditional Rels' you're referring to? I'd be interested to hear which you are looking at. Actually, at the end of the 2nd vol of the former, there's a short index of first occurrence of a Pali term, but it's rather unsatisfactory and at a quick look now, it doesn't list 'haddaya'. In the Guide (also no index), there is quite a lot of detail under 'base object prenascence dependent condition' of which heart-base is the only conditioning state. P32. I think the reference you refer to was in the Vism, ch X1V which we read about not so long ago. You may also like to look at the posts under 'heart' in UP and add any comments and let us know of reasons for your interest in this area: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/Useful_Posts Look forward to hearing more from you. Metta, Sarah ====== 30482 From: christine_forsyth Date: Mon Feb 23, 2004 2:10am Subject: Re: Seeking sutta reference + Rob K message Hello Rob, Many thanks :-) - I've put the links to your two posts on DL for Stephen and others to read. metta, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: 30483 From: rjkjp1 Date: Mon Feb 23, 2004 2:58am Subject: Re: Seeking sutta reference + Rob K message Dear Christine, There is also the Sampasadaniya Sutta, number 28 of the Digha Nikaya but which isn't on the web yet. best robert In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Hello Rob, > > Many thanks :-) - I've put the links to your two posts on DL for > Stephen and others to read. > > metta, > Christine > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: 30484 From: buddhatrue Date: Mon Feb 23, 2004 3:18am Subject: Re: the self... how?/Jack Hi Ken, Ken: James, if you can answer my cross examination with the correct answer, I will not bother you with questions of dhamma. James: Okay Johnnie Cochran, you might as well give up because I'm not budging! ;-)) Ken: It is what I think that you still do not get the gist of what is satipatthana and you are just wondering in circles and that its why I bother you. James: Ken, I already wrote you a very long post explaining the Satipatthana Sutta and you did not directly respond to the main part of it. My discourse to you has been very direct and to the point. Deal with each issue I raise and don't gloss over the ones you don't agree with and then it will be apparent that I am not wandering in circles about anything. Ken: I may seem arrogant to you, that I cannot help, but I wish to express that you consider what I say. James: I haven't written that you seem arrogant to me. I haven't even thought that. Actually, if anything I agree with Sarah's recent post where she characterized you as a barking terrier: you are cute and endearing at certain times and a complete nuisance at other times (I bet Sarah is regretting that post now! ;-)). Ken: Think deeply what I say and laid down what you have known for years. Just like I laid down my Mahayana that i have learn for seven years and listen to what other have said in this list. James: No thank you. Ken: I already said I dont disparage others - that will not get anyone anywhere. If you are confident in your own interpretation of the dhammas, you will have answer with ease and with fluency and justifying your position and not say we belong to the *A Sujin* group. James: I am not disparaging anyone; I am just calling it as I see it. Show me one person who values meditation and also admires the teaching of K. Sujin (and I don't give her the `Ajahn' title; she isn't a nun) and I will retract what I say about her `group'. Obviously, to me, she is teaching something that is very odd and contrary to the dhamma. She may be as nice as pie, I don't know, but I am not evaluating her as a person. I evaluate what she teaches based on what I see in her followers. Ken: If you want, you can cross examine me, test my understanding of the sutta. Even if I dont see the commentary, I have confidence in answering your examinations. That is how much confidence I have. Its ok if you think I am arrogant ;-). James: Well, I didn't think you were arrogant but this statement is starting to give me different thoughts. I don't feel the need to cross examine you about anything. That would be silly. Next you will be challenging me to a bake off! ;-)) How about a Pali spelling bee?? ;-)) Ken: So now you tell me, does satipatthana only apply in sitting down. I do not need the commentary to convince you that satipatthana is not sitting down only. James: No, it doesn't apply to only sitting meditation. It applies to all daily activities. I explained this all in my past post. Please re-read it and get back to me. Metta, James 30485 From: Kenneth Ong Date: Mon Feb 23, 2004 4:26am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: What is Vipassana? & Keeping track of daughters (was 'Unknown') Hi James K: Since you said that I did not response to your long mail, here I go James: If you think that what the Buddha said in that sutta applies directly to your life, you are kidding yourself. You have chosen to lead a dusty life, not a holy life, so you need to be realistic about where you are. That isn't to say that you can't practice the Buddha's teachings, you can, but you shouldn't think that what the Buddha told his monks in that sutta applies directly to you. That isn't logical or realistic. K: Do monks eat, drink and sleep like you or you are different from them. Do monks see, hear, smell, taste, touch, like you or you are different from them ;-). If there is such difference, then you are right, satipatthana is for the monks and not everyone. If not, it is for everyone. J: With that said, the Satipattha Sutta describes sitting meditation that is reinforced and followed through during everyday activities. If there isn't any sitting meditation there won't be the full conditions to follow the practice of mindfulness in everyday activities. This is just common sense. If you can't even focus and calm your mind during sitting meditation, it will be impossible to do so during everyday activities. K: That is why you miss the gist of satipatthana. We may have more duties than the monks, that does not mean we cannot practise mindfullness. I never heard mindfullnes is only exclusive for those doing meditation or for monks. Have you seen the earlier mail which I quote the from the sati sutta the word “live”. J: Additionally, these everyday activities need to have a lot of mindfulness and attention directed toward them to have any development of panna to a significant degree. The Buddha did describe how to have mindfulness during sitting, eating, drinking, etc., but this is pretty much all a monk does all day. A monk doesn't have a job, a car, money, clothes, children, a wife, in-laws, etc., etc., etc., all he has to do all day is be mindful of all of his very few activities. You really think your life can be comparable? I have even less attachments than you do (I think): no kids, no car, no family, no cell phone, no romantic relationships, no sexual relationships, no ties to my surrounding culture, etc., and I still find it difficult to practice the level of mindfulness that the Buddha described in the Satipatthana Sutta. K: There again you miss the point, monk is as human as you. Then again are you saying that being mindful of the six sense need a specialised training. Because you think it must start with meditation that is why you have problem practising it in living moments. There is different level of sati and panna but it does not mean one purposedly have to do something or do activities that reach that level(assuming that level is those you have experience in you meditation). All levels come naturally when right conditions arise. Don't have a misconception that we must practise a level of mindfullness. I said again, satipatthana is living it and not to wait to live in it. Ken O 30486 From: Kenneth Ong Date: Mon Feb 23, 2004 5:04am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:_Recognizing_the_Dhamma_-_1._Dispassion_(§_1.2.) Hi Victor > Again, the question I have in mind is: > What specific qualities in passage § 1.2. of which one may know and > > may definitely hold as the Teacher's instruction? k: The qualities are having know the three characteristic in all the six senses. What do you expect more ;-)? Ken O 30487 From: Kenneth Ong Date: Mon Feb 23, 2004 5:17am Subject: sexual misconduct Hi all I have read the useful post. I got this question from a friend which I felt loss of words. In ancient a householder can have a few wives and now only one wife, so if a householder have another "mistress" in modern time, is it sexual misconduct. Then again he asked about lesbain and homosexual. Comments please Ken O 30488 From: abhidhammika Date: Mon Feb 23, 2004 6:25am Subject: Re: [dsg] Points of Controversy: To Nina and Sarah Dear Sarah, Nina, Mike B and all How are you? Michael B wrote: "I have just received the book "Points of Controversy - Kathavatthu"" Suan: Glad to hear the good news. Michale B also quoted: " The note at the bottom of the page reads: This is an inquiry into the nature of 'a real and ultimate [or self dependent] fact.' Comy. 'Conditioned (sankhata) is, in Buddhist tradition, what has been prepared, brought about by something else, made, has come together by conditions." Suan: Sorry to hear the bad news. I have never read something like "self dependent (attam pa.ticca)" as the position of the standard Pali commentaries. Interpreting of the terms "real" and "ultimate" as "self dependent" reads like Vedic and Vedantic statement, and thus must have come from Mrs Rhys-Davids. Sarah replied to Mike B: S: Frankly, I think you're grasping at straws if a translator comment in a footnote is all you can find to suggest the commentaries conclude that `real and ultimate' or paramattha suggest a self. As others have said, just ignore the misleading translator's paraphrase in the square brackets. Suan: I agree with Sarah. Mike B, please do not count on a translator's comment in a footnote who did not provide the actual Pali equivalent terms for "self dependent". Something like "attam pa.ticca" is not part of the teaching on the Dependent Origination (Pa.ticcasammuppaada). One of the translators of Kathaavatthu, Mrs Rhys-Davids, was a very well-known supporter of self view. She was a very popular ally of what has now come to be known as Vedantist Buddhism. The followers of Vedantist Buddhism love her mistranslations of the term "attam" from Pali Suttams. There are also modern Pali scholars such as Dr Peter Masefield and Professor Peter Harvey who have been influenced by Mrs Rhys-Davids. Professor David Kalupahana also did not escape from her influences because he, too, got his doctorate from the University of London. The common characteristics of Neo-Rhys-Davidsites such as those scholars are their backward leaning towards Vedas and Vedanta and their dislike and disrespect for Aacariya Buddhaghosa because the standard Pali commentaries always prevent them from interpreting Pali Suttams as they please and as though Pali texts supported their theist views. You may need to exercise extreme caution when you read the works of those neo-Rhys-Davidsites, be they their translations or their originals. This, of course, is only if you yourself (personal reflexive pronoun) have not been already infected by their self view or person view or theist view. Mind you, neo-Rhysdavidsites are persuasive writers as Mrs Rhys-Davids was. Gotama the Buddha's teachings on selflessness (anatta) provoke very strong reaction from Vedic and Vedantic theists such as Mrs Rhys- Davids and neo-Rhys-Davidsites. Due to this strong emotional reaction (domanassa), they formed something like a group that advocates dislike and disrespect for the standard Pali commentaries because these commentaries preserve the teachings of selflessness (anatta), beinglessness (nissatta), personlessness (nippuggala), and soulessness (nijjiiva) with no room for distortion and theist interpretations. With regards, Suan Lu Zaw http://www.bodhiology.org --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: Hi Michael & All, S: Frankly, I think you're grasping at straws if a translator comment in a footnote is all you can find to suggest the commentaries conclude that `real and ultimate' or paramattha suggest a self. As others have said, just ignore the misleading translator's paraphrase in the square brackets. > The suttas, Abhidhamma and commentaries are all pointing to exactly the > same truths. > > Metta, > > Sarah > ===== 30489 From: buddhatrue Date: Mon Feb 23, 2004 6:36am Subject: Re: Sensing own mind whenever it moves ( 02 ) Hi Nina --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > Hi James, > Now your computer is fixed, I resend my post to you. > op 19-02-2004 13:29 schreef buddhatrue op buddhatrue@y...: > > > Let me ask you this Q: > >> > >> If you talk about/think about trying or striving to do some > > chores/be > >> aware of the body or breath/or striving to know feelings or mental > > factors > >> in meditation practice, who or what is `trying', `striving' or > > making this > >> `effort'? > > I am, James Mitchell. That personality of 'James' won't be gone > > until enlightenment. Till then, "I" keep on trucking on!! ;-)) > N: I must admit that you are right. Even if there can be a moment of sati > without thinking, there is still an underlying idea of *me*. A. Sujin was > reminding us of this all the time. but the most important, I believe, is to > realize that we are in this way. It is better to know than not to know! > I also learnt another interesting point. It is the latent tendency of wrong > view that is only eradicated at enlightenment, but, by the development of > insight, stage by stage, this latent tendency is already in the process of > being worn away. > Now this sutta gets more meaning: it is a sutta Sarah quoted once to you > that you liked. I could not get in Thailand B.B. edition. S III, > Khandhavagga, Middle Fifty, ch 5, § 101: > on the bank for six months owing to the failure of water in the dry season, > its rigging is spoiled by wind and sun: then, overstrung by a shower in the > rainy season, it is easily weakened and rots away. > Even so, monks, in a monk who dwells attentive to self-training the fetters > ar easily weakened and rot away.> > This is said of the fetters, but it can also be said of latent tendencies. > Please can you help me with B.B.'s notes? That is, if time allows this; > since you have to catch up many mails. > Nina. On an intellectual level I know that my body isn't myself; I know that the five aggregates aren't a part of myself or that I am composed of the five aggregates. In other words, I know that the lights are on but no one is home! ;-)) But this knowledge is really only intellectual at this point. Through my years of study and meditation practice, `James' has decreased more and more; I do see that. `James' is just a shadow of who he used to be, but he is still a shadow. I don't meditate to find `James' or to reinforce `James', actually, quite the opposite. I meditate to directly know the truth of life because I know that it can't be known at simply an intellectual level. I don't have any goals about what I hope to achieve because I don't even know what it is possible to achieve. If anything, I guess I have the goal to become more fully human, in whatever way that means. Nina, I am sorry but I can't quite follow this reference you give. Where is this sutta found? I can't follow "B.B. edition. S III, Khandhavagga, Middle Fifty, ch 5, § 101". I seem to always have a problem with this because different methods are used to cite sources from Buddhist texts. If you, or anyone else could give me a helpful pointer, that would be great. I am not sure what kind of help you would like with B.B.'s notes but I can't even begin unless I can find them. ;-) Metta, James 30490 From: buddhatrue Date: Mon Feb 23, 2004 6:55am Subject: Re: What is Vipassana? & Keeping track of daughters (was 'Unknown') Hi Ken, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Kenneth Ong wrote: > Hi James > > K: Since you said that I did not response to your long mail, here I > go I am finding it difficult to continue this discussion with you because I find your responses to be irrational, over-emotional, and borderline discourteous. I am afraid that if I respond again it will only get worse. Therefore, I am going to practice Noble Silence with you. I wish you the best and to only find happiness in all that you do. Metta, James 30491 From: Date: Mon Feb 23, 2004 2:51am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: distinction between nama and rupa. Hi, Sarah (and Victor) - In a message dated 2/23/04 2:39:53 AM Eastern Standard Time, sarahdhhk@y... writes: > Hi Howard, Victor and All, > > A little more on namas and rupas in the suttas.... > .... > H: I agree with you, Victor, that making the distinction between > >mental > >and physical, which, BTW, I think pretty much all human beings do quite > >easily > >for the most part, is not a suttic teaching of the Buddha's. > ..... > S: When there is an idea that distinguishing namas from rupas is obvious > and common to most people, I think it suggests the deep meaning has not > been fully appreciated. > > At this moment, is there any clear understanding of seeing or visible > object? Is the distinction apparent? Are they clearly understood as > dhammas, not self? > ---------------------------------------------------- Howard: Yes, there is a an understanding of and noting visual object, and there also is a noting of the knowing of it (though I think that separation of subject and object is illusory - a mental breaking up of nondual experience into knowing subject and known object). And, yes, these are *understood* as not self, but the sense of self remains - and that will be so until subjectivity (and objectivity) dissolves upon becoming an arahant. The mind of the worldling (in fact, of the non-arahant) produces an "internal subject" and "external objects" that are not actually existent. These perceptual constructs are mental, not physical. I don't take them for realities. But this issue is largely different from knowing mental as mental and material as material. This is largely the issue of distinguishing reality from illusion. ------------------------------------------------- > > As Swee Boon said, the teaching of and distinction between namas and rupas > runs throughout the suttas. > --------------------------------------------------- Howard: They are not *confused* in the suttas, any more than sight, sounds, tastes,and smells are confused with each other. But it is not in the suttas that the emphasis on distinguishing nama from rupa as an enlightenment stage is made. ---------------------------------------------------- > > SB: “If one can’t even get the distinction between rupa and nama right, > how could one even get the distinction between the five aggregates right?â€? > > S: Without this clear understanding (not just smart thinking), I don't > think there cannot be the deeper understanding of the tilakhana, paticca, > the 4 Noble Truths which are more advanced understandings of the nature of > namas and rupas.** -------------------------------------------------------- Howard: I certainly agree that if one cannot distinguish well, and under most circumstances, between mental and physical, one will likely have difficulty making other important distinctions. And, as you say, the distinguishing should be a matter of direct experioence, and not just an intellectual belief based on thinking. BTW, there is one circumstance in which the distinguishing of nama and rupa *may* be faulty, and that is during the dream state - or, perhaps not faulty. Even in a lucid dream, when one knows with certainty "This is a dream", the apparent sights, sounds, tastes, smells, and touchings appear *no different* from those during the waking state - they are all apparently physical experiences. And at the same time, there arise in the mind thoughts, feelings, desires, volitions, emotions etc that are mental. However, I cannot say with certainty that the apparently physical dream experiences do not constitute physical experience. They certainly do not seem to fall into the same category as the clearlymental dream-state experiences. I think they may constitute physical experience, and that the main thing about them that is different from waking physical experience is that they are (normally) completely private, with no intersubjecivity in effect. (As you know, whether waking or dreaming, I don't hypothesize an "external world" independent of experience. But that isn't very relevant to this matter anyway, for even if it did exist, what is experienced is just experience, and an alleged "external reality" is only hypothesized, not known.) --------------------------------------------------------- > .... > H: > Now, if it were said that clearly distinguishing between what > is > >actual experience and what is illusion is a sign of right understanding, > >I would > >agree. <....> > .... > S: Without any direct understanding of namas and rupas, illusions will > always be taken for realities as I see it. > ----------------------------------------------------- Howard: Without direct distinguishing of namas from rupas, there is already a serious illusion - I certianly agree. Attention, feeling, love, and anger are all in a category quite separate from hardness, sights, sounds, and touch sensations, and confusing the categories is certainly cognitive error, I believe, though, it seems, it is an error that is more common than I had realized. ----------------------------------------------------- > > While the details about the stages of insight are not given in detail in > the suttas, often the meaning is implied. > ---------------------------------------------------- Howard: When an implication is not clear, it may be more a matter of inferring than implying. We humans have an uncanny ability to find what we are looking for. --------------------------------------------------- > > For example, in SN, 35:26 (Full Understanding), we read: > > “Bhikkhus, without directly knowing and fully understanding the all, > without developing dispassion towards it and abandoning it, one is > incapable of destroying suffering.â€?* > .... > S:It would seem there is nothing about stages or knowledge or > distinguishing of namas and rupas. > > However, as the commentary note indicates, “in this sutta the three kinds > of full understanding are discussed: full understanding of the known, full > understanding by scrutinization, and full understanding as abandonment.â€? > B.Bodhi gives cross-references to other suttas and notes which are > similar. > > The three pari~n~naas (kinds of full understanding) are the three kinds of > knowledge which refer to the detailed stages of insight given in the > commentaries. The first one is ~naata-pari~n~naa and refers to full > understanding of the known. In the commentary to the Mulapariyaya sutta, > we read about how ‘the defining of mentality-materiality > (nama-rupa-vavatthaana) is the full understanding of the known’,in other > words the first stage of insight. > > “Therein, what is the full understanding of the known? He fully > understands the earth element [S: pathavi dhatu] thus: “This is the > internal earth element, this the external. This is its characteristic, > this its function, manifestation, and proximate cause.â€? > ..... > S: And so it continues for the other elements, showing how different this > understanding is for the ariyan than for the worldling who conceives all > sorts of wrong ideas about the elements, taking them for self. > > As we’ve seen in the Samyutta corner, often a few words in a sutta carry a > lot of meaning. I’ve discussed these verses before from SN1:20 (Samiddhi): > > “Beings who perceive what can be expressed > Become established in what can be expressed. > Not fully understanding what can be expressed, > They come under the yoke of Death. > > “But having fully understood what can be expressed, > One does not conceive ‘one who expresses.’ > For that does not exist for him > By which one could describe him." > ..... > S: Again, How many of us can appreciate these verses without clarification > from the commentaries.? > ----------------------------------------------- Howard: Mmm. ----------------------------------------------- > > B.Bodhi adds quite a lot of commentary detail here. > > In brief:â€?Spk: ‘what can be expressed’ (akkheyya) are the 5 aggregates.... > ‘Beings who perceive what can be expressed’ (akkheyyasa~n`nino sattaa): > When ordinary beings perceive the five aggregates, their perceptions are > affected by the ideas of permanence,pleasure, and self, elsewhere called > ‘distortions’(vipallaasa, AN 11 52). These distorted perceptions then > provoke defilements, on account of which beings ‘become established in > what can be expressed’(akkeyyasmi.m pati.t.thitaa).’.....â€? > > The commentary explains the second verse in a similar way to the first > sutta in terms of the 3 pari~n~nas. > > “Spk: One ‘fully understands what can be expressed’ by way of the three > kinds of full understanding: i) by full understanding of the known > (~Naatapari~n~naa) one understnds the five aggregates in terms of their > individual characteristics etc...â€? > ..... > S:In other words, again this is pointing to the stages of insight, > starting with the defining of understanding of nama and rupa as explained > above. > > I had other suttas I had also planned to look at, but there is so much > detail in each one. It just depends how we read them. In the first sutta > quoted, the ‘all’ are the eye, visible object, seeing, eye-contact and > just the same realities as described in the sutta Swee Boon quoted (post > 30337), the Satipatthana sutta or any other. Hence we see that the > development of satipatthana, the knowing of the ‘all’, aka namas and > rupas, can be found in any sutta with clear comprehension of the > meaning.As Miss Horner stated, the commentary assistance is often > essential in this regard. > > Metta, > > Sarah > *All translations given are Bhikkhu bodhi’s. > > ** Highly recommended post by Kom on vipassana nana or insight knowledge > levels starting with nama-rupa paricheda nana. > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup ============================= With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 30492 From: htootintnaing Date: Mon Feb 23, 2004 8:55am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sensing own mind whenever it moves ( 02 ) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > Hi Htoo, > > --- htootintnaing wrote: > Dear James and > Sarah, > > > > When we meet a person, we do not have a particular thought related to > > that person.But soon after we are inroduced to that person there the > > idea of 'self' has already been introduced along with conventional > > introduction. Just thinking. > .... > I think that as soon as we see 'a person' or hear 'a person', there is > thinking and an idea of 'someone' long before any words are formed or any > introductions take place. The conceptualising through the mind door > follows the sense door experiences very quickly indeed. > > Metta, > > Sarah ====== Dear Sarah, Exactly. Here is another boundry. Please drop the idea that arises as a man or so on. If not introduce for ever there is nothing to arise. Just thinking differently. Htoo Naing 30493 From: Date: Mon Feb 23, 2004 4:04am Subject: Re: [dsg] sexual misconduct Hi, Ken - In a message dated 2/23/04 8:19:06 AM Eastern Standard Time, ashkenn2k@y... writes: > Hi all > > I have read the useful post. I got this question from a friend which > I felt loss of words. In ancient a householder can have a few wives > and now only one wife, so if a householder have another "mistress" in > modern time, is it sexual misconduct. > > Then again he asked about lesbain and homosexual. > > Comments please > > Ken O > ======================== My reply is my own, without sutta to quote. Having a mistress (and the correponding situation for a woman) is a breach of trust and an abrogation of a pledge, and this (plus resulting agitation of the mind) is what makes it wrong. And because it pertains to sexual activity, it is sexual misconduct. As far as lesbian and homosexual activities are concerned I cannot see any basis for seeing any more moral fault in these than in heterosexual activities. (The pragmatics of sangha life are a separate matter, and I would just as soon skip that issue!) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 30494 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Mon Feb 23, 2004 9:19am Subject: Re: What is Vipassana? & Keeping track of daughters (was 'Unknown') Hi James, I want to say that I find your post (#30452) to Ken reasonable. I think it is wise to keep silent if the communication becomes draining. Metta, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: > Hi Ken, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Kenneth Ong > wrote: > > Hi James > > > > K: Since you said that I did not response to your long mail, here I > > go > > > I am finding it difficult to continue this discussion with you > because I find your responses to be irrational, over-emotional, and > borderline discourteous. I am afraid that if I respond again it will > only get worse. Therefore, I am going to practice Noble Silence with > you. I wish you the best and to only find happiness in all that you > do. > > Metta, James 30495 From: htootintnaing Date: Mon Feb 23, 2004 9:19am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sensing own mind whenever it moves ( 02 ) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: again. .... S: Whether we talk or don't talk about cittas, cetasikas and rupas, whether they are known or unknown, still there are only these realities existing, wouldn't you agree? .... ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Yes. utterly true. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- S: I understand you're saying that theory and practice are differnt. I agree. Still, the truths remain the same. Ultimately there is no self existing at all - no self to be lost or anything else. It never existed in the first place except in our imaginations. .... ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: You got more score :-)). Yes. That's what dhamma are. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- S:;-) Even an arahant `lives in pannatta domain' in the sense of having to use pannatti - just no misconceptions. It's not a case of the language, but the understanding behind it. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Further scores again :-)). ---------------------------------------------------------------------- S: I agree with the first part, but don't understand the last sentence. .... ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Sorry. I just deleted it. See in the next post. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Htoo: Got it. But you seem eradicated Atta but still with traces. > > Even though you have thrown away it will creep in back into your bag. -------------------------------------------------------------- S: yes, there can be a moment of understanding now of seeing or feeling or visible object and this can be immediately followed by the idea of a thing or `my understanding'. It can sneak in anytime. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Good. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >Htoo: So you have right materials? -------------------------------------------------------------- S: What are the right materials? I'm not sure `we' ever have them or that they can be collected at the outset. If there are the right conditions,don't fear, they'll arise accordingly. In your new series (sensing dhamma 02), you mention `contemplation on dhamma has to arise when dhamma in different situations have been well recognized.' However, then you go on to discuss how `at first, the meditator practised breathing meditation on his breath. In doing so, there develops some achievement.' As you continue to explain, all the realities are in fact namas and rupas and you've said in this post `Arising is conditions related. No one can choice'. So my question is, what is the purpose of practising breathing meditation and what is the special achievement? I hope this doesn't sound impolite or disrespectful. I'm still trying to understand your tools and map and the reasons for the `choices';-) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I can sense you and your questions. It doesn't sound impolite or disrespectful. Q1. The purpose of practising breathing meditation Q2. The special achievement Q3. Tools and Map Q4. Choices A1. Ultimate aim is practising mahasatipatthana to attain Arahatta Magga Nana. At the earlier part the aim is to focus. This can be breathing meditation at nostril or at abdomen. Just for initial focus. A2. As initiated and maintained, no more focus is needed. Just to see real phenomena with wisdom. So the meditator achieves relaxed and flexible method in meditation. A3. Necessary knowledge. I think necessary. But not in actual sense if can practise properly. That knowledge is tool. You have been constantly poking through my messages. I am not disturbed. But what I want to say here is that you have a good knowledge that there is no Atta. That is tool. So you have tool. More tools are method of practice. Map is what shows landmarks. A4. You can choooe what you like. This is in conventional term. If there is no you, 'you' cannot choose. Some chose to become a Sammasambuddha. Some to become Paccekabuddhas. Some Agga Savaka. Some Mahasavaka. Some Etadagga. And so on. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Htoo: I really appreciate your kind communication. > > > > May you be free of wrong view. > > > > With Unlimited Metta, .... S:Thank you Htoo. These are very kind wishes,especially the wishing that we may be free of wrong view. Metta, Sarah p.s I like your comments about the five niyamas in another thread. ===================== ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: There are 62 kinds of Micchaditthi. Wrong view is the worst. If someone kills another but he does not have wrong view, then he may not suffer long as those with wrong view. May you feel ease and peace and practise mahasatipatthana and achieve something right now. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 30496 From: htootintnaing Date: Mon Feb 23, 2004 9:29am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sensing own mind whenever it moves ( 02 ) -------- >Htoo: Learn on the way. Arising is conditions related. No one can choice. As you said, there was no Sumedho but citta and a group of cetasikas and pannindriya cetasika arose. Cittas and Cetasikas arose and fell away continuously and Cittas and Cetasikas failed to arise over 2600 years back. -------------------------------------------------------------- S: I agree with the first part, but don't understand the last sentence. .... ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I am talking paramattha dhamma like you to become non-sense. As I thought you now do not understand the last part. The Buddha Gotama had done Mahaparinibbana over 2600 years ago. He did not choose to become a Sammasambuddha when he was Sumedho but:-) Cittas and Cetasikas arose, deciding mind that is Adhimokkho arose and for 4 Asenkheya and 100,000 Kappa, different cittas and cetasikas arose including dosa, lobha, moha and no more arose over 2600 years ago. Can you see any Atta here? I do hope, now you well penetrate the last sentence. If not I have to say it is just ' The Buddha Gotama had done Mahaparinibbana. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing P.S: By the way BTW, are you Mahayana? 30497 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Feb 23, 2004 10:16am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:nama and rupa Hi Howard, Cognitive disorder: excellent reminder, no need to apologize. Let's say we all suffer from this, so long as we are ordinary people. As you said: we believe we notice this or that but in reality it is different, the mind is like a magician (in my own words rendered). We are like sick people. To distinguish the mental from the material in theory: anybody can do this. Seeing is not visible object, hardness is not thinking. But as to the development of direct understanding, this is altogether different. Carl explained this very well. We are in a tangle. We are bound to take thinking for direct awareness. This gives us the impression that we can see and hear at the same time, feel hardness of the table and see a table at the same time. We are in an ocean of concepts. The greatest danger is not knowing that one is in a tangle. In order to enganle this tangle we should first of all know that each citta experiences only one object at a time. Seeing experiences only colour, hearing experiences only sound. Hearing does not experience words nor does it know the meaning of words, those are cittas different from hearing. Howard:< This issue of distinguishing nama from rupa strikes me as being much ado about nothing (or, if not "nothing", then at least "not much"!). The point of detailing all the khandhas is, as I see it, to emphasize their impersonality so that one is pointed in the direction of seeing that nothing that is actually observed is me or mine. > N: How to come to that goal? We have to know first what object *exactly* we take for permanent or self. We find the explanation of this in countless suttas. The suttas about all the objects experienced one at a time through the six doors. Six different worlds that are not mixed. As I tried to explain before, the three characteristics are characteristics of nama and of rupa, they are not abstract entities. Before someone can realize the arising and falling away of realities, thus, impermanence, he has to be sure which nama or which rupa has arisen and appears and then falls away. We have to remember that the citta with sati and panna only experiences one object at a time. Seeing, visible object, hearing, sound, feeling, thinking! They arise all the time. Even people who have skills for jhana (and they need the masteries, entering and emerging from jhana whenever they wish, etc) still have to distinguish nama from rupa. It is the beginning of insight. It is an important step from theoretical understanding towards a beginning of direct understanding. It is important though that the theoretical understanding of nama and rupa should be clear first. Howard: N: True, there are four Great Elements, and the other rupas, derived rupas are dependent on these. This means: the four great Elements arise always together with the derived rupas. According to the Theravada tradition: seven rupas only are experienced through the senses: three (of the Great Elements) are tangible object, and then there are colour, sound, odour and flavour experienced through their relevant sense-doors. You do not have to accept the Theravada tradiiton, but, we can verify in our own life whether it is true that these seven rupas appear all the time in daily life. Then all the other rupas can only be experienced through the mind-door. This is to be verified by each person for himself. Nina. 30498 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Mon Feb 23, 2004 10:35am Subject: [dsg] Re:_Recognizing_the_Dhamma_-_1._Dispassion_(§_1.2.) Hi Ken and all, Perhaps I did not phrase my question clearly: When you read passage § 1.2., what do you see the Buddha taught such that you may definitely hold: "This is the Dhamma. This is the Vinaya. This is the Teacher's instruction."? As I see it, what the Buddha taught in this particular passage is guarding the doors of one's senses. And guarding the doors of one's senses leads to dispassion, not to passion. In that regard, one may definitely hold that this is the Teacher's instruction. In the passage § 1.1., I see that the Buddha taught the Dhamma that the All is aflame. And as the Buddha taught: "Aflame with what? Aflame with the fire of passion, the fire of aversion, the fire of delusion. Aflame, I tell you, with birth, aging & death, with sorrows, lamentations, pains, distresses, & despairs. This is the Dhamma that leads to dispassion, not to passion. In passage § 1.2., I see that the Buddha taught skillful/wholesome/kusala conduct of guarding the doors of one's sense and that too leads to dispassion, not to passion. May you be happy and well. Metta, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Kenneth Ong wrote: > Hi Victor > > > > Again, the question I have in mind is: > > What specific qualities in passage § 1.2. of which one may know and > > > may definitely hold as the Teacher's instruction? > > k: The qualities are having know the three characteristic in all the > six senses. What do you expect more ;-)? > > > Ken O 30499 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Mon Feb 23, 2004 0:04pm Subject: Recognizing the Dhamma - 1. Dispassion (§ 1.3.) § 1.3. Sister Nanda: "Sick, putrid, unclean: look, Nanda, at this physical heap. Through contemplation of the foul, develop your mind, make it one, well-centered. As this [your body], so that. As that, so this. It gives off a foul stench, the delight of fools." Considering it thus, untiring, both day & night, I, with my own discernment dissecting it, saw. And as I, heedful, examined it aptly, this body -- as it actually is -- was seen inside & out. Then was I disenchanted with the body & dispassionate within: Heedful, detached, calmed was I. Unbound. [Thig V.4] http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/study/recognizing.html#dispassion http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/khuddaka/therigatha/thig05 .html#4 30500 From: christine_forsyth Date: Mon Feb 23, 2004 0:32pm Subject: [dsg] Re:_Recognizing_the_Dhamma_-_1._Dispassion_(§_1.2.) Hello Victor and All, How exactly does one 'guard the sense doors'? Where DN2 says "he does not grasp at any theme or details by which -- if he were to dwell without restraint over the faculty of the [insert faculty] -- evil, unskillful qualities such as greed or distress might assail him." Does it mean one averts ones eyes, stop ones ears, block ones nose, tries to think of something else etc when anything unpleasant or pleasant appears at one of the sense doors? How would this work? ... because one has already seen, heard, smelled etc. in order to decide? Isn't this more of the "I will not think of Mel Gibson in the shower, I will not think of Mel Gibson in the shower" ... it merely makes it a certainty that one WILL think of Mel Gibson (insert alternate choice) in the shower. "Distress" is such an inexact word - and I wonder why distress is called 'evil'? Is distress different to suffering? Victor - we might want to be able to trace the thread in escribe. At the moment, however the title is being recorded, the whole thread doesn't come up when clicking on "View This Thread". Any solution? metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- 30501 From: christine_forsyth Date: Mon Feb 23, 2004 0:36pm Subject: Re: sexual misconduct Hello KenO, and all, I think it is generally considered, by buddhists and non-buddhists, that having sex with someone while either is married/committed to another is unskillful and brings its own consequences. I feel sexual acts between consenting adults, whether heterosexual or homosexual, when free to do so and not in a committed relationship with another, would not be regarded as unskillful and would not be breaking the third Precept. A sexual act ought to be an expression of love, respect, loyalty and warmth. A power imbalance, deceit, or any form of exploitation would be unskillful. In buddhism it could be said that it is not just the person who is the object of one's sexual desire which determines whether a sexual act is unskillful or not, but rather the quality of the emotions and intentions involved. metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Kenneth Ong wrote: > Hi all > > I have read the useful post. I got this question from a friend which > I felt loss of words. In ancient a householder can have a few wives > and now only one wife, so if a householder have another "mistress" in > modern time, is it sexual misconduct. > > Then again he asked about lesbain and homosexual. > > Comments please > > Ken O 30502 From: christine_forsyth Date: Mon Feb 23, 2004 0:39pm Subject: Re: Sensing own mind whenever it moves ( 02 ) Hello James, "B.B. edition. S III, Khandhavagga, Middle Fifty, ch 5, § 101" ....can be found on page 959 Bhikkhu Bodhi's trans. of Samyutta Nikaya 101 (9) 'The Adze Handle (or The Ship)' - see the last verse. metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" > Nina, I am sorry but I can't quite follow this reference you give. > Where is this sutta found? I can't follow "B.B. edition. S III, > Khandhavagga, Middle Fifty, ch 5, § 101". I seem to always have a > problem with this because different methods are used to cite sources > from Buddhist texts. If you, or anyone else could give me a helpful > pointer, that would be great. I am not sure what kind of help you > would like with B.B.'s notes but I can't even begin unless I can find > them. ;-) > > Metta, James 30503 From: Date: Mon Feb 23, 2004 7:36am Subject: ~Nana Versus Vi~n~nana Hi, all - The words '~nana' and 'vi~n~nana' appear to be liguistically related, with 'vi~n~nana' like 'vipassana' both seeming to be special sorts of experience,as indicated by the prefix. In the PTS dictionary, the second part of the entry for ~nana gives the sense of insight/wisdom. But the first part goes as follows: _________________________________ Ñana (p. 287) (nt.) [from janati. See also janana. *gene, as in Gr. gnw_--sis (cp. gnostic), gnw/mh; Lat. (co)gnitio; Goth. kunpi; Ogh. kunst; E. knowledge] knowledge, intelligence, insight, conviction, recognition, opp. anana & avijja, lack of k. or ignorance. -- 1. Ñana in the theory of cognition: it occurs in intensive couple--compounds with terms of sight as cakkhu (eye) & dassana (sight, view), e. g. in cakkhu--karana nana--karana "opening our eyes & thus producing knowledge" i. e. giving us the eye of knowledge (a mental eye) (see cakkhu, janati passati, & cpd. °karana): Bhagava janan janati passan passati cakkhu--bhuto nana--bhuto (=he is one perfected in knowledge) M I.111=Nd2 2353h; natthi hetu natthi paccayo nanaya dassanaya ahetu apaccayo nanan dassanan hoti "through seeing & knowing," i. e. on grounds of definite knowledge arises the sure conviction that where there is no cause there is no consequence S V.126. Cp. also the relation of ditthi to nana. This implies that all things visible are knowable as well as that all our knowledge is based on empirical grounds; yavatakan neyyan tavatakan nanan Nd2 2353m; yan nanan tan dassanan, yan dassanan tan nanan Vin III.91; nana+dassana (i. e. full vision) as one of the characteristics of Arahantship: see arahant II.D. Cp. BSk. jnanadarsana, e. g. Av& Sacute; I.210. -- ------------------------------------------------------ I take that sense to mainly be knowledge in the sense of general experience. (Opening our eyes and thus producing experience). It doesn't seem to imply an element of a knowing subject. On the other hand, the entry for vi~n~nana begins as follows: ________________________________ Vinnana (p. 618) (nt.) [fr. vi+jna; cp. Vedic vijnana cognition] (as special term in Buddhist metaphysics) a mental quality as a constituent of individuality, the bearer of (individual) life, life--force (as extending also over rebirths), principle of conscious life, general consciousness (as function of mind and matter), regenerative force, animation, mind as transmigrant, as transforming (according to individual kamma) one individual life (after death) into the next. (See also below, c & d). ---------------------------------------------- I see this as associating vi~n~nana with a sense of an individual as knower. (I tend to think of vi~n~nana as subjectivity.) The distinction between ~nana and vi~n~nana is quite analogous, it seems to me, to the distinction between chanda and tanha, with the main difference in both cases being that of sense of self/individuality. If my take on ~nana is incorrect, then I wonder what other general Pali word might serve to express experience that is not necessarily afflicted by sense of self - that is, experience as mere presence of experiential content. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 30504 From: buddhatrue Date: Mon Feb 23, 2004 1:20pm Subject: Re: Sensing own mind whenever it moves ( 02 ) Hi Christine, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Hello James, > > "B.B. edition. S III, > Khandhavagga, Middle Fifty, ch 5, § 101" > ....can be found on page 959 Bhikkhu Bodhi's trans. of Samyutta > Nikaya 101 (9) 'The Adze Handle (or The Ship)' - see the last verse. > > metta and peace, > Christine > ---The trouble is that you think you have time -- Thank you for this information! I got as far as the "Khandhasamyutta" and then got hung up on Nina's spelling "Khandhavagga"; and then I couldn't figure out what `Middle Fifty' or `Chapter Five' referred to. I thought I might read through the whole chapter and find the appropriate sutta but then I found myself reading suttas without the purpose of finding that one! ;-)) After about an hour of jumping through the SN reading various suttas (i.e. Sarah's `Grasshopper' ;-), losing all track of my initial purpose, I realized it was time to ask for help. Bookstores and libraries are very dangerous places for me because of this tendency of mine! ;-) Metta, James 30505 From: torloff87048 Date: Mon Feb 23, 2004 1:21pm Subject: Re: [dsg] compound and concept Hi Howard, > Howard: > >Did you pick the red kasina for a particular reason, or do you just >like red? Basically, I just like red. But I experimented with other kasinas, including water, blue and yellow. In the end I found that painting my own kasina with pleasing shades of red and some visual detail, but not too much detail, seemed to work best. With metta, Toby 30506 From: torloff87048 Date: Mon Feb 23, 2004 1:27pm Subject: Re: [dsg] compound and concept Hi Sarah, Thanks for your welcoming words. > ..... > I find the same thing rather frustrating about Conditional Relations > (Patthana). I assume it's this and not the 'Guide to Conditional Rels' > you're referring to? I'd be interested to hear which you are looking at. > Actually, at the end of the 2nd vol of the former, there's a short index > of first occurrence of a Pali term, but it's rather unsatisfactory and at > a quick look now, it doesn't list 'haddaya'. > > In the Guide (also no index), there is quite a lot of detail under 'base > object prenascence dependent condition' of which heart-base is the only > conditioning state. P32. I think the reference you refer to was in the > Vism, ch X1V which we read about not so long ago. You may also like to > look at the posts under 'heart' in UP and add any comments and let us know > of reasons for your interest in this area: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/Useful_Posts > > Look forward to hearing more from you. > > I'm not sure if it was the Guide to Conditional Relations or Conditional Relations itself, or as you suggest, Vism. I looked for it in Vism but didn't find it again so assumed it must be CR. I'll check again- thanks for the heads up. With Metta, Toby 30507 From: buddhatrue Date: Mon Feb 23, 2004 2:10pm Subject: Re: Sensing own mind whenever it moves ( 02 ) Hi Nina, Oh yes, now I remember this sutta and the discussion I had with Sarah about it. (You have a very good memory to have remembered that!). As I recall, we were discussing how the commentaries are useful in bringing out the hidden (less apparent) meanings of a sutta. I recall that I didn't particularly care for the commentary to the first metaphor in this sutta (about a hen hatching eggs) because of the last part: "And as the chicks go about adorning the village field, so the great arahant enters into fruition attainment which takes Nibbana as its object, and thus adorns his monastery." First, comparing arahants to decorations for a monastery struck me as rather odd. Second, as Buddhists I don't think it is proper to consider sense objects as `decorations' or to even dwell on such a thing. Wouldn't that increase attachment and desire? Anyway, let's drop that and move on ;-). I do remember that I really, really liked the commentary to the second metaphor because it is so excellent! Nina, my SN has a slightly different version of the related section you quote: I have: "Suppose, bhikkhus, there was a seafaring ship bound with rigging that had been worn away in the water for six months. It would be hauled up on dry land during the cold season and its rigging would be further attacked by wind and sun. Inundated by rain from a rain cloud, the rigging would easily collapse and rot away. So too, bhikkhus, when a bhikkhu dwells devoted to development, his fetters easily collapse and rot away." Note 214: The simile is also at 45:158. I read it as in Se and Ee. Spk develops this simile even more minutely than the simile of the chicks. In brief: Like the wearing away of the bhikkhu's fetters by his going forth (into homelessness), study, and questioning. Like the time the ship is hauled onto dry land is the time the bhikkhu takes up a meditation subject and dwells in the forest. Like the drying up of the rigging by wind and sun during the day is the drying up of craving by insight knowledge. Like the wetting by snow at night is the wetting of the mind by gladness and joy arisen from meditation. Like the rain cloud pouring down is the knowledge of the path of arahantship. Like the decay of the rigging is the attainment of the fruit of arahantship. Like the persistence of the rigging in a decrepit state is the persistence of the arahant as he lives on benefiting the multitude. Like the collapse of the decrepit rigging is the arahant's attainment of the Nibbana element without residue. James' Note: I like this commentary and extended metaphor for two main reasons: the description of a ship becoming decrepit and falling apart is very literary (more literary than most of the metaphors in the Pali Canon) and since I am an English teacher I especially like literary metaphors! ;-) But the second, and most important, reason I like it is because it is describing something falling apart, rather than something being born (as in the chick metaphor). I think this more accurately and wonderfully describes the process of becoming an arahant. After all, becoming an arahant is removing the supports for ignorance until the false sense of self falls away on its own. This process can't be speeded up; it has to occur naturally and slowly. Additionally, this metaphor demonstrates how the Buddhist practitioner doesn't follow the mores and standards of the society at large. Society would value the ship and try to keep it in good working order (i.e. building and rebuilding the ego continually) but the Buddhist takes delight in letting the ship fall apart. It is a beautiful metaphor! Nina, I hope this post has been of some assistance. I'm sorry but I can't speak directly to `latent tendencies' because I am not an expert in that regard. I hope that your book is coming along nicely. Let me know if you have any other questions or comments. Metta, James 30508 From: Date: Mon Feb 23, 2004 9:33am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:_Recognizing_the_Dhamma_-_1._Dispassion_(§_1.2.) In a message dated 2/23/04 2:47:28 PM Central Standard Time, cforsyth@v... writes: How exactly does one 'guard the sense doors'? Where DN2 says "he does not grasp at any theme or details by which -- if he were to dwell without restraint over the faculty of the [insert faculty] -- evil, unskillful qualities such as greed or distress might assail him." Christine, If I may jump in here. My understanding is that phenomena as they enter each sense door is contact (phasa) in the Cycles of Dependent Origination (DO). Guarding the sense doors is applying mindfulness to conteract our conditioned reaction to each contact. This reaction without mindfulness leads up the ladder of the Cycles of DO to suffering. jack 30509 From: Andy Wilson Date: Mon Feb 23, 2004 2:47pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Andy, Love lost / the self... how? sarah > S: This is why it's important to understand anatta means nothing > can be controlled in an ultimate sense. Can you stop hurtful > feelings arising? Impossible, otherwise, we'd all do it. ..... > S: That's great. It's another real cliche, but sometimes very > good things do come out of very difficult things and your > keen interest in the Dhamma seems like a very good thing for > you and us;-) thank you for your kind thoughts, and also for reminding me of this; "in order that I may not slumber all night like a buffalo, God in His grace has given me pain... Pain is a treasure , for there are mercies in it: the kernel becomes fresh when you scrrape off the rind. O brother, to dwell in a dark and cold place, to endure patiently sorrow and weakness and pain, is the fountain of life and the cup of spiritual intoxiction, for those heights are all in lowliness... Be a fellow traveller with grief, agree with desolation, seek lasting life in thy death." Rumi, Mathnawi III 130 not the 'middle way' precisely, but it has it's truth ;-) Metta andy 30510 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Mon Feb 23, 2004 3:24pm Subject: [dsg] Re:_Recognizing_the_Dhamma_-_1._Dispassion_(§_1.2.) Hi Christine, I think that is a pertinent question: How exactly does one 'guard the sense doors'? Like what is being said in the passage in DN2, one guards one's sense doors by not grasping at any theme or details by which -- if he were to dwell without restraint over the faculty of the [insert faculty] -- evil, unskillful qualities such as greed or distress might assail him. When one sees an image of Mel Gibson, or himself in person, he or she might pick up/grasp a theme of handsomeness or sexiness that leads to thoughts in sensuality and passion. So to guard the doors of one's senses, he or she would not grasp at any theme or details (sexy smiles, eyes, physiques, voice, etc.) and dwell on them such that they lead to unskillful qualities such as sensual desires and passion. I think that to get rid of the thoughts about Mel Gibson in shower, passage § 1.3. is relevant. I think 'evil' in this sense means 'unskillful,' 'unwholesome,' not strictly 'immoral' or 'unethical.' Although being immoral or unethical is definitely being unskillful/unwholesome, being unskillful/unwholesome does not necessarily mean being immoral or unethical. In that sense, distress is an unskillful/unwholesome quality, thus 'evil.' That is how I see it... I've been to escribe couple times following the links provided in the messages, but I am not familiar with its operation. What is the link? I will check it out. Metta, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Hello Victor and All, > > How exactly does one 'guard the sense doors'? Where DN2 says "he > does not grasp at any theme or details by which -- if he were to > dwell without restraint over the faculty of the [insert faculty] -- > evil, unskillful qualities such as greed or distress might assail > him." > Does it mean one averts ones eyes, stop ones ears, block ones nose, > tries to think of something else etc when anything unpleasant or > pleasant appears at one of the sense doors? How would this work? ... > because one has already seen, heard, smelled etc. in order to decide? > Isn't this more of the "I will not think of Mel Gibson in the > shower, I will not think of Mel Gibson in the shower" ... it merely > makes it a certainty that one WILL think of Mel Gibson (insert > alternate choice) in the shower. > > "Distress" is such an inexact word - and I wonder why distress is > called 'evil'? Is distress different to suffering? > > Victor - we might want to be able to trace the thread in escribe. At > the moment, however the title is being recorded, the whole thread > doesn't come up when clicking on "View This Thread". Any solution? > > metta and peace, > Christine > ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- 30511 From: Date: Mon Feb 23, 2004 4:23pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Larry's nama rupa (was Catching Anger) Hi Sarah, L: "Hi Howard, I agree. The sutta doesn't explain the stages it mentions. One point: the knowledge of nama and rupa isn't so much about distinguishing nama from rupa as it is about the composite nature of nama and the composite nature of rupa. What initially appears as one is seen to be (experienced as) many. .... S: "Sorry, Larry, but this makes no sense to me. Maybe you could elaborate." Larry: If you were to examine one moment of anger you would find a profusion of realities. This accords both with Matara Sri ~Nanarama and Ch. XVIII in Vism. We may be conscious of only one object at a time but zillions of realities arise at once, depending on how big our "at once" is, and we can detect these depending on how sharp our discriminating awareness is. Larry 30512 From: Date: Mon Feb 23, 2004 4:48pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:nama and rupa Hi Nina and Sarah, I agree that we don't really discern namas and rupas, but I consider this to be good news. I think the idea is not so much to catch a cetasika as it is to really realize that they are truely uncatchable. We don't even come close. They are long gone. Larry 30513 From: Date: Mon Feb 23, 2004 4:56pm Subject: Vism.XIV 61 (4 of 4) "The Path of Purification" Ch. XIV, 61 Note 27 cont'. 'Since it has been said that the apprehension of intimation is next to the apprehension of the appearance of motion, how then, is the air element itself as the maker of the movement accompanied by the alteration consisting in the intimation? It is not like that. It is the air elements given rise to by the first impulsion, etc., and which are unable to cause movement in that way and perform only the stiffening and upholding, that should be taken as only accompanied by the alteration belonging to intimation. For it is the alteration coexistent with the intention that is the intimation, because of giving rise to alteration in whatever direction it wishes to cause the occurrence of moving forward and so on. Taking it in this way, it is perfectly logical to say that the origination of intimation belongs to mind-door adverting. Since the intention possessed of the aforesaid alteration is intimated through the apprehension of that alteration, it is said that "Its function is to display intention". The air element being the cause of the motion of the body intimation, is figuratively said, as a state of alteration, to be "manifested as the cause of bodily motion". "Its proximate cause is the consciousness-originated air-element" is said since the air element's excessive function is the cause of intimating intention by movement of the body' (Pm. 450-52). Cf. DhsA. 83f. 30514 From: Ajahn Jose Date: Mon Feb 23, 2004 6:11pm Subject: Re: [dsg] RAjahns Jose in hospital christine_forsyth wrote:Hello Victor, and All, 'This is the Dhamma, this is the Vinaya, this is the Teacher's instruction' ... doesn't that have a stirring ring to it - almost like a Sadhu! Sadhu! Sadhu! The Dhamma, in this instance, means the Doctrine, doesn't it? That would include everything in the Tipitaka? And the Vinaya means the Discipline. Does this just mean the official rules for the Bhikkhus and Bhikkhunis? I wonder, then, about lay people. metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "yu_zhonghao" wrote: > The Eight Principles > > I have heard that at on one occasion the Blessed One was staying at > Vesali, in the Peaked Roof Hall in the Great Forest. > > Then Mahapajapati Gotami went to the Blessed One and, on arrival, > having bowed down to him, stood to one side. As she was standing > there she said to him: "It would be good, lord, if the Blessed One > would teach me the Dhamma in brief such that, having heard the > Dhamma from the Blessed One, I might dwell alone, secluded, heedful, > ardent, & resolute." > > "Gotami, the qualities of which you may know, 'These qualities lead: > to dispassion, not to passion; > to being unfettered, not to being fettered; > to shedding, not to accumulating; > to modesty, not to self-aggrandizement; > to contentment, not to discontent; > to seclusion, not to entanglement; > to aroused persistence, not to laziness; > to being unburdensome, not to being burdensome': > You may definitely hold, 'This is the Dhamma, this is the Vinaya, > this is the Teacher's instruction.'" > > That is what the Blessed One said. Gratified, Mahapajapati Gotami > delighted at his words. > > > [AN VIII.53] > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/study/recognizing.html#8principles ends, Today I was released from intensive care after 15 days in hospital. While I was in Bangkok I went on Pindabar in front of the Marble Temple where I was staying and ate the food that was given by the people. I caught the Ecolid Bug and had a almost fatal gastrointeritis infection and got three stones in my kidneys and got a kidney infection. Next week I am having and operation for the removal of the stones.Metta. Ajhan Jose 30515 From: Kenneth Ong Date: Mon Feb 23, 2004 7:32pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: What is Vipassana? & Keeping track of daughters (was 'Unknown') Hi James and Victor >James I am finding it difficult to continue this discussion with you because I find your responses to be irrational, over-emotional, and borderline discourteous. I am afraid that if I respond again it > will only get worse. Victor: I want to say that I find your post (#30452) to Ken reasonable. I think it is wise to keep silent if the communication becomes draining. k: My frank opinion on why both of you felt this way because you still not able to withstand my cross examination on your assumption of Buddhism. If you have faith on your assumptions or believe you have, you will have stand up and counter argue your points. Think hard what I ask you because you may not meet another like me who will ask these questions, who will challenge the most inner held believe one has. When one try to answer another questions, then confidence will grow in one believe, just like when I answer Michael questions, my confidence grows and not diminishes. I am not like many people who will tell you indirectly or diplomatically. I am not like many people who will tell you hey your are doing fine, keep going. I prefer straight foward hard talk and cutting the crap out of pleasantaries, especially when I see your assumptions are weak. Stand up and be counted!!! Ken O 30516 From: Date: Mon Feb 23, 2004 2:34pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:nama and rupa Hi, Larry - In a message dated 2/23/04 10:14:43 PM Eastern Standard Time, LBIDD@w... writes: > > Hi Nina and Sarah, > > I agree that we don't really discern namas and rupas, but I consider > this to be good news. I think the idea is not so much to catch a > cetasika as it is to really realize that they are truely uncatchable. We > don't even come close. They are long gone. > > Larry > ========================= When you are happy, are you typically unaware of that? When you are angry? When you hear a sound? Now I'm not talking about *capturing* the experience; it won't wait around to be "captured". But so long as one is not lost in thought or badly inattentive, experiences are *experiences*. Now when there is an experience of strong or sharp hardness, for example, it is quite different from an experience of displeasure. But I do agree that if attention is weak, the hardness and the immediately resulting displeasure (bodily pain) appear as one event, a physical one. However, heightened attention will rectify that confusion. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 30517 From: Kenneth Ong Date: Mon Feb 23, 2004 7:42pm Subject: Re: [dsg]_Re:_Recognizing_the_Dhamma_-_1._Dispassion_(§_1.2.) Hi Victor > As I see it, what the Buddha taught in this particular passage is > guarding the doors of one's senses. And guarding the doors of > one's senses leads to dispassion, not to passion. In that regard, > one may definitely hold that this is the Teacher's instruction. k: If one will to see dhammas as anatta, anicca and dukkha, it will lead to dispassion. Since all the six sense objects (dhammas) are inflame with passion, the qualities that lead to dispassion is to see these dhammas with the three characteristics in our living moment. Furthermore when one see these three qualities, it is wholesome. That is how one guard the door. Does this explain? Ken O P.S> I am trying hard not to question you ;-). I am thinking I should provide you answers rather then questions. Cheers. 30518 From: Sukinderpal Singh Narula Date: Mon Feb 23, 2004 7:42pm Subject: Re: [dsg] RAjahns Jose in hospital Dear Christine and Ajahn Jose, > ends, Today I was released from intensive care after 15 days in hospital. While I was in Bangkok I went on Pindabar in front of the Marble Temple where I was staying and ate the food that was given by the people. I caught the Ecolid Bug and had a almost fatal gastrointeritis infection and got three stones in my kidneys and got a kidney infection. Next week I am having and operation for the removal of the stones.Metta. Ajhan Jose > Thanks for letting us know about this Christine. A. Jose, I hope you will not have to experience too much suffering and the operation next week goes well and may you soon recover and get back to normal. Metta and best wishes, Sukin 30519 From: Date: Mon Feb 23, 2004 8:25pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:nama and rupa Howard: "When you are happy, are you typically unaware of that? When you are angry? When you hear a sound?" Hi Howard, Let's take angry. That's the easiest for me. When I am angry, what is happening? There is internal, consciousness produced tangible data. This tangible data is felt as unpleasant feeling but the tangible data itself is rupa. What is the feeling? I know it is there but I can't really "see" it. Wraped around that is the angry cetasika or consciousness. This I can't really "see" either, but I know it is there. In addition to this, conceit arises as complex little bubbles that I know are there but can't really "see". There are probably at least two sets of unpleasant feeling consciousness produced tangible data: one has to do with being angry, the other is a reaction to being angry. In addition to this is a story strung together with vitakka and vicara out of the "cookie jar" of perception (sanna). Precipitating this whole thing is a desire. I can't really identify any of this stuff precisely, but I know it is there. The only phenomena that could be pointed to is the internal tangible data. Because I can point to it, I suspect I am not looking at it very carefully. Larry 30520 From: Sarah Date: Mon Feb 23, 2004 8:59pm Subject: Re: [dsg] RAjahns Jose in hospital Dear Bhante, --- Ajahn Jose wrote: > >....Today I was released from intensive care after 15 days in > hospital. While I was in Bangkok I went on Pindabar in front of the > Marble Temple where I was staying and ate the food that was given by the > people. I caught the Ecolid Bug and had a almost fatal gastrointeritis > infection and got three stones in my kidneys and got a kidney > infection. Next week I am having and operation for the removal of the > stones.Metta. Ajhan Jose > .... I'm also very sorry to hear about your sickness and thank you for letting us know. I presume you're back in Australia and being well taken care of. I'm sure I speak for everyone here on this "funny little list" when I wish you a speedy recovery and hope you're able to resume your usual activities as soon as possible. Please keep us updated. Best wishes & Metta, Sarah ====== 30521 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Feb 23, 2004 9:15pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sensing own mind whenever it moves ( 02 ) Hi James, Thanks for the trouble. This sutta comes after the one about the chicks that are hedged, which Sarah also quoted and gave the B.B. notes belonging to it. Maybe she could help? Nina. op 23-02-2004 15:36 schreef buddhatrue op buddhatrue@y...: > Nina, I am sorry but I can't quite follow this reference you give. > Where is this sutta found? I can't follow "B.B. edition. S III, > Khandhavagga, Middle Fifty, ch 5, § 101". I seem to always have a > problem with this because different methods are used to cite sources > from Buddhist texts. If you, or anyone else could give me a helpful > pointer, that would be great. I am not sure what kind of help you > would like with B.B.'s notes but I can't even begin unless I can find > them. ;-) 30522 From: rjkjp1 Date: Mon Feb 23, 2004 9:14pm Subject: Re: [dsg] RAjahns Jose in hospital --- Yes, I also thank you for informing us Venerable. I hope your recovery is going well. Robert In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > Dear Bhante, > > --- Ajahn Jose wrote: > > > >....Today I was released from intensive care after 15 days in > > hospital. While I was in Bangkok I went on Pindabar in front of the > > Marble Temple where I was staying and ate the food that was given by the > > people. I caught the Ecolid Bug and had a almost fatal gastrointeritis > > infection and got three stones in my kidneys and got a kidney > > infection. Next week I am having and operation for the removal of the > > stones.Metta. Ajhan Jose > > > .... > I'm also very sorry to hear about your sickness and thank you for letting > us know. I presume you're back in Australia and being well taken care of. > I'm sure I speak for everyone here on this "funny little list" when > I wish you a speedy recovery and hope you're able to resume your usual > activities as soon as possible. > > Please keep us updated. > > Best wishes & Metta, > > Sarah > ====== > > 30523 From: Sarah Date: Mon Feb 23, 2004 9:18pm Subject: Re: [dsg]_Re:_Recognizing_the_Dhamma_-_1._Dispassion_(§_1.2.) Hi Victor, Christine & All, --- yu_zhonghao wrote: > Hi Christine, > I've been to escribe couple times following the links provided in > the messages, but I am not familiar with its operation. What is the > link? I will check it out. ..... For Newbies, they're talking about the escribe back-up of posts at: http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/ If you check on the post of any thread (my discussion with Htoo is a good example of how it can work), then click on 'view this thread' at the top, it's easy to trace all the messages in the thread. I just tried for a couple in your new series, Victor, and they mostly seem to be working OK. Sometimes if someone changes just a character in the subject heading or something, it may not appear in the thread. I'm not sure. I'll leave it to Chris to try again. For Newbies, there is also a useful search function in escribe - using a key word in the subject heading - and also a 'view other messages by this author' or something like that. Metta, Sarah ===== 30524 From: Date: Mon Feb 23, 2004 6:28pm Subject: Re: [dsg] RAjahns Jose in hospital Dear Bhante - In a message dated 2/24/04 12:48:07 AM Eastern Standard Time, ajahnjose@y... writes: > Today I was released from intensive care after 15 days in hospital. While I > was in Bangkok I went on Pindabar in front of the Marble Temple where I was > staying and ate the food that was given by the people. I caught the Ecolid > Bug and had a almost fatal gastrointeritis infection and got three stones in > my kidneys and got a kidney infection. Next week I am having and operation for > the removal of the stones.Metta. Ajhan Jose > =========================== I'm very sorry to hear of your illness and hospital stay. A serious gastroenteritis is certainly a matter for concern and is also quite an ordeal! I'm pleased that that ordeal is now over. Kidney stones, so long as they are up in the kidney are at least not painful (though the infection might be). Over the years I've passed many, many kidney stones, an extremely painful affair. I've also undergone many procedures to remove stones, including ureter scopings, lithotripsy, and even surgery (about 35 years ago). I'm hoping that what you are having next week is just lithotripsy, because that is relatively noninvasive. In any case, I do hope that whatever is the exact nature of the procedure, it goes smoothly, easily, and effectively. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 30525 From: Sarah Date: Mon Feb 23, 2004 11:30pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Recognizing the Dhamma - The Eight Principles Hi Victor & Christine, A good study corner;-) --- yu_zhonghao wrote: > Hi Christine, > > I think I get your point regarding 'This is the Dhamma, this is the > Vinaya, this is the Teacher's instruction' having a stirring ring to > it. ..... ‘eso dhammo eso vinayo eta’n satthusàsananti’. ‘this is the Dhamma; this is the Vinaya; this is the Master’s Teaching.’ I take this to refer to Dhamma-Vinaya, the entire Tipitaka and Buddha-vacana. 84,000 units of Dhamma-Vinaya text was rehearsed at the first council, including Abhidhamma. See these posts which elaborate and give the other AN sutta Nina referred to with details of the ‘Nine factors of the Norm’: http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/m25396.html http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/m25397.html >Recognizing the Dhamma, the Vinaya, the Teacher's instruction > is an affirming experience, if not without a sense of conviction and > joy. I agree with this but not with your definitions below! Vinaya refers to the Vinaya Pitaka rehearsed first at the council and Dhamma refers to the Sutta and Abhidhamma Pitakas or the rest of the nine divisions. Please let me know if you have further comments for discussion on this favourite topic of mine;-) Metta, Sarah ======= > I tend to understand `Dhamma' as `Principle' >and `Vinaya' > as `(Ethical) Conduct.' The Principle is the principle on dukkha > and the cessation of dukkha. The meaning of `conduct' is not > limited to the rules of conduct for bhikkhus and bhikkhunis as > codified in the vinaya pitaka as the Buddha taught ethical conduct > not only to bhikkhus and bhikkhunis but also to lay people. 30526 From: Sarah Date: Mon Feb 23, 2004 11:46pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Recognizing the Dhamma - The Eight Principles Hi Victor & Christine, It may be useful here to also requote the following from the Baahiranidaana (Buddhaghosa's intro to the Commentary to the Vinaya). It is from the section on The First Council, (Jayawickrama's transl). ========================================= Extracts from section 16 (p.14) onwards: ‘ The word of the Buddha which should be known as uniform in sentiment,twofold as the Dhamma and the Vinaya, threefold according to the first,intermediate, and last words, and similarly as Pitakas (Baskets), fivefold according to the Nikayas (Collections), ninefold according to the Angas(Factors), and forming 84,000 divisions according to the Units of the Dhamma.’ ...... ‘How is it twofold as the dhamma and the vinaya? All this, in its entirety, is reckoned as the Dhamma and the Vinaya. Herein the Basket of the Discipline is the Vinaya, the rest of the word of the Buddha is the Dhamma. Hence was it stated: “Let us, friends, rehearse the Dhamma and the Vinaya,” and :I shall question Upali on the Vinaya and Ananda on the dhamma.” Thus it is twofold as the Dhamma and the Vinaya.’ . ..... A little later we read
..... With regard to the term, Abhidhamma, it says: ‘Since here are found conditions which possess growth and their own characteristics, are revered and differentiated and said to be excellent-on account of these it is called Abhidhamma.’ . ..... A little later, there is a description of the 3 Pitakas, Vinaya, suttanta and Abhidhamma: ‘Here follows the explanation and elucidation. These three Pitakas,indeed, according to formal analyses are said to be the authoritative injunctions, the popular teachings, and the ultimate truth respectively; or they are the discourses necesitated by transgressions, those adapted to circumstances, and those set out in acordance with reality respectively; or again, discourses on the various categories of restraint, on the refutation of heresies, and on the distinction between Name and Form , respectively. Herein, the Vinayapitaka is called the exposition of injunctions as it has been preached with a preponderance of authority by the Exalted One in whom all authority is vested; the suttapitaka, the exposition of popular teachings as it has beem preached with great emphasis on popular ethics by the Exalted One who was proficient in popular ethics; and the Abhidhammapitaka, the exposition of *ultimate truth* as it has been preached with great leanings on absolute truth by the Exalted One who is adept in the absolute truths. ‘Likewise, the first is called the teaching necessitated by transgressions wherin those beings who are given to many misdeeds are admonished in accordance with the nature of their offences; the second, that adapted to circumstances wherein beings who are given to divers dispositions, latent tendencies, and traits of character are admonished in accordance with their adaptability; and the third, that set out in accordance with reality wherein bengs who conceive of an ego and what pertains to it, only in the presence of a pile of conditions, are instructed in terms of the absolute truth.......’ ******************** Metta, Sarah ====== 30527 From: buddhatrue Date: Tue Feb 24, 2004 0:07am Subject: [dsg] Re: Sensing own mind whenever it moves ( 02 ) Hi Nina, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > Hi James, > Thanks for the trouble. This sutta comes after the one about the chicks that > are hedged, which Sarah also quoted and gave the B.B. notes belonging to > it. Maybe she could help? > Nina. Christine was so kind (and intelligent!) to direct me to the proper location in the SN. I wrote a post in response, #30507. Let me know if this is the type of input you were looking for or if you had something else in mind. Metta, James 30528 From: Sarah Date: Tue Feb 24, 2004 0:11am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: the self... how?/Jack Hi Victor & Jack, --- yu_zhonghao wrote: > Hello Jack, > > Here is a verse from Dhammapada for consideration: > > > 372: > > There's no jhana > for one with no discernment, > no discernment > for one with no jhana. > But one with both jhana > & discernment: > he's on the verge > of Unbinding. > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/khuddaka/dhp/25.html#372 ..... It’s an interesting verse and follows 371 which has been discussed in detail. Here’s another translation (Narada’s) of 372: “There is no concentration in one who lacks wisdom, (Natthi jhaana’m apa~n~nassa) Nor is there wisdom in him who lacks concentration. (pa~n~naa natthi ajhaayato*) In whom are both concentratio and wisdom, (Yamhi jhaana~n ca pa~n`naa ca) He, indeed, is in the presence of Nibbana. (sa ve nibbaanasantike) *see earlier discussions on jhaaya and jhaayatha, often translated as meditate, meditation and jhana. Here are some comments RobK and Jim gave before: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/11524 Metta, Sarah ====== 30529 From: kenhowardau Date: Tue Feb 24, 2004 0:12am Subject: [dsg] Re: the self... how?/sacca Hi Robert, ------------------- R: > I used to think if anyone would study and consider carefully that eventually they would 'get it'. In fact it is only if there is true investigation of the present moment that understanding grows: and that in turn makes the theory clearer. ------------------- I'm sorry, Robert, I'm not sure I follow. Are you telling me something new here? I think I know what study, consideration and investigation mean; is there something that can be done to make the third flow on from the first two? Kind regards, Ken H 30530 From: kenhowardau Date: Tue Feb 24, 2004 0:23am Subject: [dsg] Re: the self... how?/sacca Hi Howard, I was suggesting that study is incompatible with formal practice and vice versa. You wrote: ------------------ > I think you are incorrect on both counts. Extolling the virtues of listening, considering and discussing is not, in itself, disputing the efficacy of any other aspects of practice, and extolling other aspects of practice, including, "formal" meditation, is not in itself a denigration of study. There is no reason one cannot do both, and there is every reason to believe that each is supportive of the other. > ------------------ I would agree with you, were it not for the word `formal.' As I understand it, a jhana practitioner -- sitting alone, in a remote forest, back straight, concentration fixed – is not practising formal meditation. In his past, for many lifetimes, he has been living correctly – keeping the precepts, forsaking luxuries, practising moderation in eating and sleeping, and so forth. (He would be quite a remarkable personality, I think, probably unlike anyone I have ever met.) In whatever way he develops jhana absorption, there would be nothing formal about his practice – it would be perfectly natural for him. Admittedly, for some of us, it might be equally natural to sit for an hour or two every day and practise some form of mental therapy. So, perhaps in those cases too, the word `formal' does not apply. However, it is not jhana, and so it is not a method of mental development taught in the Pali Canon. As a natural part of daily life, such a practice is no more (and no less) conducive of morality and insight than is walking the dog. On the other hand, `formal' meditation connotes an idea (a subtle wrong view) of being able to control conditions (for mental development). In other words, walking the dog would be better. ------------------ H: > I think this is complete nonsense. For the worldling anatta is rarely more than mere belief! You can believe all you want that there is no self, but you still can stand up if you wish, and you can sit down if you wish, and, for that matter, so could the Buddha, who (I believe) *knew* there was no self. -------------------- It would be wrong to separate daily life from Dhamma practice. If we believe that standing up and sitting down are controlled by self, then we must believe the Eightfold Path is controlled by self. There can be standing and sitting with or without the idea of a controlling self, but progress on the path requires right understanding all the way. --------------------------- H: > When you are an arahant, Ken, and may that be soon, then you will come at things from the perspective of nibbana. Until then, to have the opinion that there is no self and that, thus, nothing can be done because there is no "one" to do it, --------------------------- That is your conclusion, not mine. My understanding of conditionality has never caused me to despair, to feel helpless or to feel justified in being lazy. ----------------------- H: > is to pretend enlightenment when there is none, it is to delude oneself as to what one's possibilities are, and it is to guarantee stagnation on the path. The Buddha taught his followers to DO a variety of things, including act morally, guard the senses, cultivate the divine abidings, master the jhanas, meditate mindfully on the four foundations, and so on and so forth. ---------------------- `Trying' to follow the Buddha's teaching with a perception of self (because anatta is too hard to deal with), might feel like progress but it takes us further away from right understanding. ----------------------- H: > Of course there are paramattha dhammas - that is, phenomena the clear and direct knowing of which leads to the ultimate goal (parama attha) - and it is the direct knowing of their tripartite nature of anicca, dukkha, andanatta that enables the attaining of that ultimate goal. --------------------------------- I would agree, but I suspect your point is; ultimate reality is the end, not the beginning. Beginning or end, path or no path, there are only paramattha dhammas. Kind regards, Ken H 30531 From: christine_forsyth Date: Tue Feb 24, 2004 0:52am Subject: Re: [dsg] RAjahns Jose in hospital Dear Bhante, I was shocked to hear of your illness, and how serious it was. I hope you are safely back home in Canberra, where, even though it sounds like there is yet more to endure, I know you will be getting the very best of care. How unexpected this illness was - it is a reminder to us all that we can never know what will happen from one moment to the next. How strange it must be for you to be the patient, relying on the advice and treatment of your medical colleagues - quite a role reversal. :-) I will be thinking of you with metta, and send my best wishes for a speedy and complete recovery. Please keep us informed of your progess. metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ajahn Jose > ends, Today I was released from intensive care after 15 days in hospital. While I was in Bangkok I went on Pindabar in front of the Marble Temple where I was staying and ate the food that was given by the people. I caught the Ecolid Bug and had a almost fatal gastrointeritis infection and got three stones in my kidneys and got a kidney infection. Next week I am having and operation for the removal of the stones.Metta. Ajhan Jose > 30532 From: Sarah Date: Tue Feb 24, 2004 0:59am Subject: Re: [dsg] definately faithless Hi John, Thanks for your reply last week to me. Sorry for the delay - I get busy at the end of the week. --- John Hoban wrote: <...> >I > don't think she's in it just for $$$ , talking about contact with > dead I mean, but of course, that doesn't mean she isn't imagining > what she thinks she sees either. Even experience can be imagined, > can't it? ... S: Yes......* .... > That's part of the problem I think. Anybodies testimony can be > attributed to self-delusion, including one's own. At this point I > have to laugh. I think that very realization is my only sanity. ..... S: Yes, sometimes laughing at our self-delusion and ignorance is not a bad thing;-).Having said that, I think any teaching can be tested out right now, to see whether what is taught is correct or not. .... > Your words make sense. I have these periodic outbursts of > sanctimonious B.S. > I must point out that your advantage is that you do believe, as you > stated, that if one does good deeds, etc, they will have good > reward/karma/feedback/whatever. That's an act of faith and you know > me. ..... S: More important is to understand the value of ‘good’ and the harm in ‘bad’ at this moment. When we’re angry, to give a simple example, we can test out whether it’s skilful, whether there’s any wisdom, whether it leads to calm and peace or to more anger. .... >Also, if death is the end of a personal entity, then how can > that entity feel good and get the positive feedback ..... S: What we take for a person are mental and physical phenomena. The positive feedback or results are in the way of pleasant experiences through the senses. Usually we feel good when we have pleasant experiences and feel bad when they’re unpleasant. The path of wisdom is a path of equanimity or detachment, learning to accept whatever comes our way. ... > Also this make me think that good deeds should not be done for the > goal of reward. That's kinda selfish, no? .... S:I agree. If we do good in the hope of a good result or reward, it shows selfishness or self-clinging. That doesn’t mean don’t do the good deeds, but better be honest about it and know the different mental states involved. ..... >Hey! Maybe that's why > we're not 'permited' to know about what happens when we die. So that > we do good stuff out of unselfish altruism! Saw right through the .... S: ;-)When we die, life will continue just like now...another moment, more mental states and so on. Better to look at present states and present ignorance and delusion, rather than being too concerned about future states, I think. .... >"But my cynic soon returns and the lifeboat burns, my spirit > just never learns" - from The Lamb Lies Down on Broadway CD, Genesis .... S: Oh, you’ll have to start singing with Icaro - maybe you can help him when he forgets his words;-) A cynic...hmmm......it’s good to question as you’re doing here, John. I’d also encourage you to take a look at the following books of Nina’s and see if either appeal: ‘Buddhism in Daily Life’ ‘Abhidhamma in Daily Life’ http://www.zolag.co.uk/ or http://www.abhidhamma.org/ .... > P.S. I always have trouble finding the right word for 'dead', > deceased, passed on, etc. They all imply something and I know nothing. ..... S:What about this moment? Is there also death or passing on of consciousness and mental states? .... > What's Metta mean? .... S:It means I wish you well and friendly greetings. In your universe post you asked more about kamma. No one to judge and no self to be a maker either. Causes and results. Also it’s not dependent on anyone’s view. You said you don’t know your own heart. Regadless the law of kamma works on. by understanding more about your ‘heart’, it’ll be easier to understand kamma, but not easy. You may also like to look at posts under kamma and vipaka (result of kamma) at this link, passing over any which are too technical for now. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/Useful_Posts Hope to hear from you. Metta, Sarah ====== *“..For that reason the Blessed One has said, ‘bhikkhus, that masterpiece of art is designed by the mind. Indeed, Bhikkhus, the mind is even more artistic than that masterpiece.” (SN22:100 as given in Atth. transl) 30533 From: rjkjp1 Date: Tue Feb 24, 2004 1:16am Subject: [dsg] Re: the self... how?/sacca Dear KenH Remember the brief description KenO gave of his meeting with K. Sujin """"What strikes me during our discussion is when A Sujin say it just about nama and rupa and right understanding on them. It was not even kusala and akusala nama, it is about just the basic - nama and rupa. When I think about it, what she is trying to put across is to have less thinking but more direct understanding of reality. I think whenever we try to understand the characteristic of kusala and akusala, there is a likelihood that we are thinking and not understanding reality. I thought I was very basic in my practise just noticing the reality of the six rooted cittas, she was even more basic than me. I feel this point of looking at just namas and rupas is good to share with the rest here. To me, effective - it cuts away thinking - it is just about reality."""" KenO, just before he left for Bangkok, asked me some profound Abhidhamma question offlist. I said he would be able to ask in bangkok and mentioned that we have to know where we are. How much is the teaching we have already learnt understood. It is not having so many details that is crucial (although these can be very useful too) but whether it relates to what is happening now. I have met a person or two who spend a great deal of time studying Dhamma, even writing about it, but who seem to miss the application of it. Partly this is because of accumulations and partly because it is relatively easy to remember/write/speak/think/ about Dhamma - one can mimic what is heard and read in the Tipitaka. But the actual application is so profound that no one can say 'do this, and then that, and now you have sati'. It can only be understood each for himself. BTW, the reason I brought this up is not because I think you don't understand this, far from it; but along the same lines as Andrews letter, a pedagogical matter. Robertk In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > Hi Robert, > > ------------------- > R: > I used to think if anyone would study and consider carefully > that eventually they would 'get it'. In fact it is only if there is > true investigation of the present moment that understanding grows: > and that in turn makes the theory clearer. > ------------------- > > I'm sorry, Robert, I'm not sure I follow. Are you telling me > something new here? I think I know what study, consideration and > investigation mean; is there something that can be done to make the > third flow on from the first two? > > Kind regards, > Ken H 30534 From: Sarah Date: Tue Feb 24, 2004 1:53am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Link to book on Paramis? Hi Philip, I don’t think anyone got back on the ‘metta ripples’ questions: --- Philip wrote: > Hello all. > > An afterthought and a question. Thanks to Sarah's reminding me > that I had stated an intention to read more about Paramis- an > intention I had forgotten about- I have started reading it and I > sense it's going to add a lot of focus and energy to my beginner's > practice. .... S:That’s good. .... >And it's not a stretch for me to imagine that by having a > more focussed and energetic practice, I will bring a lot more > wholesome energy out into the world and into the classroom where I > teach. So a single gesture by Sarah (and link from Robert) will end > up having something of what I call a Metta ripple effect here in > Japan, no > matter how piddly it turns out to be due to my lack of diligence. ..... S: Hmmm....maybe better not to have any expectations...conditions are so complicated, I think. Still, I appreciate your good intentions for your teaching. ..... > There are countless examples of this sort of thing in all our lives, > of course. The Buddha taught that a single flame can light a thousand > candles, or words to that effect. .... I’d be curious to follow this up if anyone has the reference. .... > My question for you is if there is a Dhamma term for the way > wholesome citta(?) proliferate in the world as a result of our kind > gestures? ..... We often use the word ‘accumulate’ here to refer to the way that wholesome cittas condition more wholesome cittas. As to the effect on others and the world, that’s another question. Often no one knows about wholesome cittas and acts or they may not like them or ignore them. In other words, I think that as wisdom grows, so do the wholesome cittas, regardless of any effects. Still, it’s wholesome when you’d like to help your students or others around and see the value in metta. Those that appreciate good deeds and thoughts will appreciate these sometimes, but even if they don’t, it’s OK too. No expectations. ..... >I seem to be very interested in this kind of thing but > don't have enough knowledge of the Dhamma to know if I am just > cooking up my own pretty notions or not. .... It’s a good topic. I’d like to hear more from others. Metta ripples sound pretty good as long as there isn’t any idea of metta radiation or transferring of metta to others. Metta, Sarah p.s pls quote any parts from the Paramis or ADL which you find especially useful or wish to discuss too. ====== 30535 From: Philip Date: Tue Feb 24, 2004 3:17am Subject: [dsg] Re: Link to book on Paramis? --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: Hello Sarah, and all. I'm eagerly reading ADL and the Paramis book these days. I find that reading them concurrently is interesting, because the profusion of new terms in ADL finds a context in the Paramis book that reinforces their meaning for me. I find myself waking up in the middle of the night and reading them. It's very thrilling. I'd been going along for close to a year with only a vague understanding of what the Khandas are about, and now they are so much more clear. Questions are arising, of course. I'm just relaxing and getting into it without fretting too much about it. > ..... > We often use the word `accumulate?Ehere to refer to the way that wholesome > cittas condition more wholesome cittas. As to the effect on others and the > world, that's another question. Often no one knows about wholesome cittas > and acts or they may not like them or ignore them. In other words, I think > that as wisdom grows, so do the wholesome cittas, regardless of any > effects. P: I'm very interested in the 4 Efforts, if that's the way they are usually translated. Discouraging the arising of unwholesome thoughts, removing those that have arisen, encouraging the arising of wholesome ones, and nurturing those that have arisen. If I've understood the reading I've done, wholesome citta are conditioned and arise due to past wholesome deeds. So it is not a matter or resolving to give rise to them. (This runs counter to the kind of Metta meditation I've been doing, in a way. I do a lot of conceptual work that doesn't fall in with the practice laid out in ADL. But it's all good, for this beginner, at least. I'll be more rigorous in the future, I imagine.) Nevertheless, I'm curious about how we can contribute to the 4 Efforts of others, either consciously or unconsciously. For example, I have a co- worker who is an outright dog, always boasting about his sexual conquests. Now he's engaged, and everyone's dubious, and tells him he'll never mend his philandering ways. I made a point to agree with him when he said he could settle down and purify his sexuality. (LOrd knows he didn't use that term!) So I was helping him to maintain a wholesome intention. That's a very crude example, but I'm curious to know how we can purify not only our own citta stream, if you will, but contribute to the purifying of others, in whatever small way. But as you say, no expecations. Could anyone tell me how these 4 Efforts are termed in Pali, so I can refer to them again? Thanks. >The Buddha taught that a single flame can light a thousand > > candles, or words to that effect. > .... > I'd be curious to follow this up if anyone has the reference. P: I'd also like to know if anyone has a reference. I found this in "THe Teaching of the Buddha" which many of you are probably familiar with. It's the Buddha's Gideon, a bilingual collection left in Japanese hotel rooms. The references are very shady, however - when I've cross-checked them at Access to Insight, the translations (as well as the Japanese) bore little resemblance to Thanissaro Bhikkhu's translations. I hope it is an authentic teaching of the Buddha, because it has inspired me for years. >pls quote any parts from the Paramis or ADL which you find >especially > useful or wish to discuss too. P: I surely will be doing so! Thank you again for your encouragement. I can't tell you how grateful I am to have come across this group. As we know, the BUddha teaches that the opportunity to study the Dhamma is a rare one indeed. I will no longer dawdle about doing so with diligence. Metta Philip --- Philip wrote: > Hello all. > > > > An afterthought and a question. Thanks to Sarah's reminding me > > that I had stated an intention to read more about Paramis- an > > intention I had forgotten about- I have started reading it and I > > sense it's going to add a lot of focus and energy to my beginner's > > practice. > .... > S:That's good. > .... > >And it's not a stretch for me to imagine that by having a > > more focussed and energetic practice, I will bring a lot more > > wholesome energy out into the world and into the classroom where I > > teach. So a single gesture by Sarah (and link from Robert) will end > > up having something of what I call a Metta ripple effect here in > > Japan, no > > matter how piddly it turns out to be due to my lack of diligence. > ..... >> ..... > > There are countless examples of this sort of thing in all our lives, > > of course. > .... > > ..... > >I seem to be very interested in this kind of thing but > > don't have enough knowledge of the Dhamma to know if I am just > > cooking up my own pretty notions or not. > .... > It's a good topic. I'd like to hear more from others. Metta ripples sound > pretty good as long as there isn't any idea of metta radiation or > transferring of metta to others. > > Metta, > > Sarah > p.s > ====== > > > 30536 From: abhidhammika Date: Tue Feb 24, 2004 4:24am Subject: Re: [dsg] RAjahns Jose in hospital Dear Ajahn Jose Sorry to hear your hospital stay. Which hospital in Canberra are you staying for operation? Only yesterday (23 February 2004), I visited Canberra Hospital between 2 p.m and 5 p.m. The niece of my (psychiatric) patient is also undergoing surgery on her 3 broken backbones from the skijet accident. When you let me know more details about suitable time to visit you, I would certainly come and see you. I wish you speedy recovery. With fivefold-touch bow, Suan --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ajahn Jose wrote: Today I was released from intensive care after 15 days in hospital. While I was in Bangkok I went on Pindabar in front of the Marble Temple where I was staying and ate the food that was given by the people. I caught the Ecolid Bug and had a almost fatal gastrointeritis infection and got three stones in my kidneys and got a kidney infection. Next week I am having and operation for the removal of the stones.Metta. Ajhan Jose 30537 From: gazita2002 Date: Tue Feb 24, 2004 5:06am Subject: Re: [dsg] Puzzlement over SN. dear Larry, Andrew, Nina and Howard, Thanks for your help. -- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@w... wrote: > Hi Azita, > > A: "(II 114,17-19)" > Firstly, I cannot figure out these numbers" > > L: Look on page 608. "II" is the book, "114" is the bracketed PTS page > number, and "17-19" is the lines on that PTS page. Highly cryptic!!! It > took forever to figure it out :-))) Maybe he explained his numbering system, but I probably skimmed over that bit. I agree with you, Larry, it is highly cryptic! > A: "Secondly, and I know he specifies with "....in the Nikayas..." but > imvho, this whole paragraph could be misleading, by giving the > impression that consciousness (vinnana) is out side namarupa. I > understand that these two 'sheaves of reeds' are nama/rupa supporting > each other and nama includes vinnana, be BB seems to be saying that > nama/rupa and vinnana are the two reeds." > > L: The two sheaves are consciousness and namarupa. Consciousness is > included in "nama" only in abhidhamma classifications. In the dependent > arising formula consciousness is not included in nama. You could think > of namarupa as body and personality, or body and identity (something > like that), the basic DNA package. Because namarupa and consciousness > are codependent, we might say sankhara conditions the arising of both, > and both condition the arising of the 6 sense bases. But Nina might not > like that:-) > Actually, Nina has said, and you've probably read it already, that 'here the method of the Dependent Origination is used. Vinnana is vipaka at rebirth or during life. This conditions cetasikas and rupa'. Is this so different to what you are saying? BTW, I do enjoy the dialogue bet. you and Nina on various topics. I have learnt quite a lot. Thanx. > Larry Still think its a long, long way to Nibbana, Andrew. Azita. 30538 From: rjkjp1 Date: Tue Feb 24, 2004 5:08am Subject: [dsg] Re: Link to book on Paramis? In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Philip" wrote:I'm eagerly reading ADL and the Paramis book these days. I find > that reading them concurrently is interesting, because the profusion > of new terms in ADL finds a context in the Paramis book that > reinforces their meaning for me. I find myself waking up in the > middle of the night and reading them. It's very thrilling. I'd been > going along for close to a year with only a vague understanding of > what the Khandas are about, and now they are so much more clear. > > > P: I'm very interested in the 4 Efforts, if that's the way they > are usually translated. Discouraging the arising of unwholesome > thoughts, removing those that have arisen, encouraging the arising of > wholesome ones, and nurturing those that have arisen. If I've > understood the reading I've done, wholesome citta are conditioned and > arise due to past wholesome deeds. So it is not a matter or resolving > to give rise to them. (This runs counter to the kind of Metta > meditation I've been doing, in a way. I do a lot of conceptual work > that doesn't fall in with the practice laid out in ADL. But it's all > good, for this beginner, at least. I'll be more rigorous in the > future, I imagine.) Nevertheless, I'm curious about how we can > contribute to the 4 Efforts of > others, either consciously or unconsciously. ===== Hi Philip, I first picked up my copy of Abhidhamma in Daily Life in Sri lanka in 1989. I was like you, thrilled. So clear and productive of energy. Do you see how wholesome energy arises even without wishing it would arise. It can't be stopped when conditions are such. On the other hand some people read the same book and feel discouraged- the path seems long, or they wish there could be a way to control dhammas. Different conditions. Now you feel energized and would like to change the world, very natural. This comes with pleasant feeling, but pleasant feeling arises also with lobha (tanha) and so wanting that feeling to last the wholesome may soon change to a subtle tanha (craving), and it is very natural that this happens too. Vital to acknowledge these disguised akusala, so that self-deception, the enemy of spiritual practice doesn't grow. The way of practice is not so much to preference one over the other but to see the conditionality of it all. Then the idea of self is being gradually erased. As that happens it is easier for other parami to develop, and as they develop they support wisdom, a virtuous circle. But very gradual. Patience, khanti, is the supreme austerity in Buddhism. RobertK 30539 From: Philip Date: Tue Feb 24, 2004 5:10am Subject: [dsg] Re: Link to book on Paramis? --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Philip" wrote: Hello Sarah, and all. >The Buddha taught that a single flame can light a thousand candles, or words to that effect. >> S: I'd be curious to follow this up if anyone has the reference. P: I can't find it again in the "Teaching of the Buddha" , which I see now seems to be a Pure Land Buddhism publication, thousgh it's not clearly identified as such. I did a Google search and found the quotation at all sorts of "Inspirational Quotations" sites, but they never provide references. The exact quotation is "A thousands candles can be lighted from a single candle, and the life of the candle will not be shortened. Happiness never decreases by being shared." I can see now that it is a Mahayana concept - it almost sounds like it's talking about an Atman, actually - and doesn't really get at the "Metta ripple effect" I was wondering about. That's only considered in the first part - "A thousand candles can be lighted from a single candle." It's a nice idea, at least. Metta, Philip 30540 From: Sarah Date: Tue Feb 24, 2004 5:19am Subject: Re: [dsg] Points of Controversy: To Nina and Sarah Dear Suan, Thanks for all your interesting comments. Actually, I find for the most part that this translation and new edition of the Kathavatthu is very good. Perhaps, thanks to the influence of Shwe Zan Aung the co-translator. I see it was first published in 1915 and really I’m most grateful for all the work (in spite of any misguided views) by these early English translators, though I used to be more put off by some comments in other texts. I particularly like Bimala Churn Law’s translation of the commentary, first published in 1940 and I note, reprinted as a result of generosity by ‘patrons in Thailand’. I just saw your note to Bhante and intention to visit him in hospital. That’s very kind, Suan. Anumodana. I’m sure he’ll appreciate your company and support and perhaps he’ll give you his bound-to-be hilarious account of his day with some of us and K.Sujin at the Foundation in Bangkok. Metta, Sarah ======= 30541 From: Philip Date: Tue Feb 24, 2004 6:01am Subject: [dsg] Re: Link to book on Paramis? --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > > I first picked up my copy of Abhidhamma in Daily Life in Sri lanka > in 1989. I was like you, thrilled. So clear and productive of > energy. > Do you see how wholesome energy arises even without wishing it would > arise. It can't be stopped when conditions are such. On the other > hand some people read the same book and feel discouraged- the path > seems long, or they wish there could be a way to control dhammas. > Different conditions. P: Hello Robert, and all. It's all very interesting. I've been keen, for some reason, on thinking in terms of defilements and hindrances for about 15 years now, though not in a Buddhist context until the last couple of years, and have been told by various friends over the years that I try too hard. And evidence supports them on this, because the amount of progress I've made in uprooting bad habit energies compared to the amount of talking I do about doing so is pretty meagre! But the intention has remained, and now I feel very happy to have found a way to get at the defilements in a clear-cut way. The book came my way like so many other things, but it grabbed my attention when I started reading it because the conditions were there for that to happen, as you said. Very interesting. And how nice to have a forum to discuss defilements without considered a joyless puritan for using the term. That seems to be the reaction I got at general Buddhist forums when I tried to talk about deliements and hindrances. > Now you feel energized and would like to change the world, very > natural. This comes with pleasant feeling, but pleasant feeling > arises also with lobha (tanha) and so wanting that feeling to last > the wholesome may soon change to a subtle tanha (craving), and it is > very natural that this happens too. Vital to acknowledge these > disguised akusala, so that self-deception, the enemy of spiritual > practice doesn't grow. P:The craving is already here. I have all my sutta and dhamma talks printed out and sorted into different coloured binders, and I sit there picking up one after another and flipping throught them, thinking with great satisfaction how wise I'll be when I've read them all and absorbed them and about how I'll be able to help people and sometimes, I have to admit, how people will love and admire me for it. I do, I'm afraid. Fortunately I'm aware of it and am able to laugh at it now. I will press ahead towards an understanding of absolutely reality which will eventually free me from that kind of craving and attachment, but for the time being they are there, for sure. > The way of practice is not so much to preference one over the other > but to see the conditionality of it all. Then the idea of self is > being gradually erased. I think Nina Van Gorkom's books invite us to stop whatever it is we're doing thorughout the day and check our awareness of rupa and nama in the moment. I've found myself doing that the last couple of days. When tired and a bit blue on the way home after a long day, just checking the things that are arising in the light of what I've read in her books. Sensing the conditionality. Being aware, in a flash, of Khandas, to the extent that I am able to now. And while it doesn't make me perk up, it allows me to let go of the struggle to try to feel better. A kind of liberation, of course. Already. >As that happens it is easier for other > parami to develop, and as they develop they support wisdom, a > virtuous circle. But very gradual. Patience, khanti, is the supreme > austerity in Buddhism. "In Patience shall ye possess your soul." That's from Matthew. Not hat I was ever a Christian, but that line has always stuck with me. I think it's true. Khanti will be an important practice for me. (My job teaching English to painfully shy and socially awkward adults certainly gives me a lot of opportunities to practice!) Thank you for your encouragement, Robert. I trust that you and all members will not hesitate to point out my misunderstanding when it arises, which it will. Metta, Philip 30542 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Tue Feb 24, 2004 6:53am Subject: [dsg] Re: Recognizing the Dhamma - The Eight Principles Hi Sarah, Thank you for participating this study corner. I think at the moment the topic is on recognizing whether something is the Dhamma, the Vinaya, the Teacher's instruction. The Buddha taught Mahapajapati Gotami that: "Gotami, the qualities of which you may know, 'These qualities lead: to passion, not to dispassion; to being fettered, not to being unfettered; to accumulating, not to shedding; to self-aggrandizement, not to modesty; to discontent, not to contentment; to entanglement, not to seclusion; to laziness, not to aroused persistence; to being burdensome, not to being unburdensome': You may definitely hold, 'This is not the Dhamma, this is not the Vinaya, this is not the Teacher's instruction.' "As for the qualities of which you may know, 'These qualities lead: to dispassion, not to passion; to being unfettered, not to being fettered; to shedding, not to accumulating; to modesty, not to self-aggrandizement; to contentment, not to discontent; to seclusion, not to entanglement; to aroused persistence, not to laziness; to being unburdensome, not to being burdensome': You may definitely hold, 'This is the Dhamma, this is the Vinaya, this is the Teacher's instruction.'" So it is based on these eight pairs of principles or criteria, one can examine for him or herself whether something is the Dhamma, the Vinaya, the Teacher's instruction. As I see it, 'these qualities' in the passage has much broader meaning than 'what is being said.' They include one's actions and conduct, skillful or unskillful. They also include the principle in accordance or not in accordance to the principle of dukkha and the cessation of dukkha. The objective for this study is twofold: First, to know these eight principles. Secondly, to apply these eight principles. The study guide provides guidance and structure in this study with passages from the discourses. We can discuss and verify these principles in relation to the discourse passages. We can also come up with our own examples (such as thoughts about Mel Gibson in shower) such that we can apply these eight principles. If you like, we can also examine some doctrines in the Abhidhamma Pitaka with respect to the eight principles. Metta, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > Hi Victor & Christine, > > A good study corner;-) > > --- yu_zhonghao wrote: > Hi Christine, > > > > I think I get your point regarding 'This is the Dhamma, this is the > > Vinaya, this is the Teacher's instruction' having a stirring ring to > > it. > ..... > `eso dhammo eso vinayo eta'n satthusàsananti'. > `this is the Dhamma; this is the Vinaya; this is the Master's Teaching.' > > I take this to refer to Dhamma-Vinaya, the entire Tipitaka and > Buddha-vacana. 84,000 units of Dhamma-Vinaya text was rehearsed at the > first council, including Abhidhamma. > > See these posts which elaborate and give the other AN sutta Nina referred > to with details of the `Nine factors of the Norm': > > http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/m25396.html > http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/m25397.html > > >Recognizing the Dhamma, the Vinaya, the Teacher's instruction > > is an affirming experience, if not without a sense of conviction and > > joy. > > I agree with this but not with your definitions below! Vinaya refers to > the Vinaya Pitaka rehearsed first at the council and Dhamma refers to the > Sutta and Abhidhamma Pitakas or the rest of the nine divisions. Please let > me know if you have further comments for discussion on this favourite > topic of mine;-) > > Metta, > > Sarah 30543 From: Date: Tue Feb 24, 2004 2:39am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:nama and rupa Hi, Larry - In a message dated 2/24/04 2:33:25 AM Eastern Standard Time, LBIDD@w... writes: > > > Howard: "When you are happy, are you typically unaware of that? When you > are angry? When you hear a sound?" > > Hi Howard, > > Let's take angry. That's the easiest for me. When I am angry, what is > happening? There is internal, consciousness produced tangible data. This > tangible data is felt as unpleasant feeling but the tangible data itself > is rupa. What is the feeling? I know it is there but I can't really > "see" it. Wraped around that is the angry cetasika or consciousness. > This I can't really "see" either, but I know it is there. In addition to > this, conceit arises as complex little bubbles that I know are there but > can't really "see". There are probably at least two sets of unpleasant > feeling consciousness produced tangible data: one has to do with being > angry, the other is a reaction to being angry. In addition to this is a > story strung together with vitakka and vicara out of the "cookie jar" of > perception (sanna). Precipitating this whole thing is a desire. > > I can't really identify any of this stuff precisely, but I know it is > there. The only phenomena that could be pointed to is the internal > tangible data. Because I can point to it, I suspect I am not looking at > it very carefully. > > Larry > > ============================== You're correct with regard to precision. There is so much stuff going on that it is near impossible to separate it all out as far as identification is concerned. But it is all experienced, though not all identified or remembered. With powerful analytic meditation, the sifting out improves. Mindfulness and clear comprehension can be cultivated. But aside from difficulty in sifting one phenomenon from another, about which I think you are quite correct, when an element of experience *is* discerned, generally nama seems like nama, and rupa seems like rupa. It is no easier to separate, sift out, and distinguish nama from nama and rupa from rupa than it is to sift out nama from rupa. In fact, it is typically somewhat easier, it seems, to distinguish nama from rupa than nama from nama or rupa from rupa. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 30544 From: Htoo Naing Date: Tue Feb 24, 2004 8:20am Subject: Sensing Dhamma as they really are ( 03 ) Dear Dhamma Friends, The meditator is peacefully meditating and he is experiencing each by each, bit by bit, and all these are building up. What are these? These are all he sees with his own mind eye. Here 'his own mind eye' is just an expression not to confuse with Atta. At a time, he has been well concentrated and he is being peaceful. But as all dhamma in Sankhata Dhatu domain ( that is in worldly place ) are conditioned, his concentrated mind stays for a while and it passes away. Another mind state arises and this again passes away and there are many many endless mind states which arise successively. This is viewing from outside and not by that meditator. What he sees is that after a while when his concentrated mind has gone away, next arising mind states once hit something. That something is annoyance. He at first did not know that he went into hatred mind states. But later on, he realizes that there has arisen a mind state with hatred. He notes that a mind state with hatred arises. When these mind states persist, he notes that they persist. And when they pass away, he notes they pass away. These mind states are called hindrances. They are Byapada Nivarana. This dhamma hindrance is not him, not his and there is no person in the whole process that are happening on. He notices that there is no Atta. May all beings be free from Atta belief. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing htootintnaing@y... JourneyToNibbana@yahoogroups.com 30545 From: Date: Tue Feb 24, 2004 5:16am Subject: A Bit More on Vi~n~nana as Subjectivity Hi, all - It occurs to me that understanding vi~n~nana as subjectivity (i.e., the sense of a knowing subject) and namarupa as objectivity (i.e., the sense of objects known by a knowing subject) helps explain certain things not easily understood otherwise. One of these is the following segment of the 12-fold linkage of dependent arising: vi~n~nana --> namarupa --> salayatana If one wishes to interpret dependent origination not just in the 3-lifetime mode, but also in the "right-now" mode, this segment seems problematical. If vi~n~nana is merely awareness and namarupa is merely namic and rupic phenomena (in the context of dependent origination), why is salayatana given as consequence? It would seem clear that sense-door activation should only be a necessary condition *for* awareness, not a consequence of it! But now think of this in the following terms: Vi~n~nana is subjectivity, namarupa is objectivity, and salayatana constitutes the sense doors that provide the connection/conduit between the two. A doorway or conduit between two things is dependent on those things. Without subjectivity and objectivity, there can't be a conduit between them. And, in fact, this goes a long way towards helping one understand the "unraveling" aspect of dependent origination: From the cessation of ignorance (the propensity to I-making), comes the cessation of sankharic construction, from which comes the cessation of subjectivity, from which comes the cessation of objectivity, from which comes the cessation of conduits between subjectivity and objectivity, from which comes the cessation of contact, from which comes the cessation of self-oriented feeling, from which comes the cessation of craving, from which comes the cessation of clinging, from which comes the cessation of becoming, from which comes the cessation of birth, and death, and the whole mass of suffering. Every arahant, and most especially, the Buddha, went through this entire eradication process. But the Buddha still experienced, and he still felt. Is that a contradiction? I think it is not. In the Buddha there was no ignorance, hence no sankharic construction (in particular no self-oriented volition), hence no subjectivity and objectivity, hence no conduit between such, hence no contact, no craving, no clinging, no becoming, no birth, no death, and no suffering. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 30546 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Feb 24, 2004 10:38am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: the Ship Hi James, Thank you very much for the B.B. version with notes and your comments. I save it all in a special file. I also like your notes. Rotting away appeals to me. op 23-02-2004 23:10 schreef buddhatrue op buddhatrue@y...: > I have: > "Suppose, bhikkhus, there was a seafaring ship bound with rigging > that had been worn away in the water for six months. (snip) > > James' Note: (snip) I think this > more accurately and wonderfully describes the process of becoming an > arahant. After all, becoming an arahant is removing the supports for > ignorance until the false sense of self falls away on its own. This > process can't be speeded up; it has to occur naturally and slowly. > Additionally, this metaphor demonstrates how the Buddhist > practitioner doesn't follow the mores and standards of the society at > large. Society would value the ship and try to keep it in good > working order (i.e. building and rebuilding the ego continually) but > the Buddhist takes delight in letting the ship fall apart. It is a > beautiful metaphor! N: And it shows how long it takes! I just heard on tape that when people say: it takes so long, so long, they are actually praising the Buddha who had to develop the perfections for so long, so long before he could become the Fully Enlightened One. > J: Nina, I hope this post has been of some assistance. I'm sorry but I > can't speak directly to `latent tendencies' because I am not an > expert in that regard. I hope that your book is coming along > nicely. N: The latent tendencies are deeply rooted accumulated defilements (senseuous desire, anger, ignorance, wrong view, conceit etc) which do not come to the surface, arising with the akusala citta, but they are the very conditions for the arising of akusala citta. They can only be eradicated at the different stages of enlightenment by supramundane cittas. My translation from the Thai may have to wait a long time! Thank you again, Nina. 30547 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Feb 24, 2004 10:38am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:_Recognizing_the_Dhamma_-_1._Dispassion_( §_1.2.) Hi Victor, op 24-02-2004 00:24 schreef yu_zhonghao op yu_zhonghao@y...: > When one sees an image of Mel Gibson, or himself in person, he or > she might pick up/grasp a theme of handsomeness or sexiness that > leads to thoughts in sensuality and passion. So to guard the doors > of one's senses, he or she would not grasp at any theme or details > (sexy smiles, eyes, physiques, voice, etc.) and dwell on them such > that they lead to unskillful qualities such as sensual desires and > passion. N: We all see, cannot avoid it. But what is seen? only visible object or colour. Only after the seeing unskillful thoughts can arise. When we come to know seeing as an impersonal element arisen because of conditions, and visible object as only visible object, not Mell, there is no dwelling on details or images. And when there are conditions to dwell on Mel, well even that, the attchament, is an impersonal element. We shall attach less importance to that attachment and to the person of Mell (I never heard of him before, no idea!). Thus there will not be such forcing: O let me not think of Mel, and than that very thought is bound to arise. It can all be very natural. Nina. 30548 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Feb 24, 2004 10:38am Subject: Re: [dsg] AJAHN JOSE in hospital Bhante, I am concerned about your health. I very much appreciated your presence at the session with A. Sujin. I shall never forget that you showed your book with texts of rituals to Jon and recited: These words deeply stirred me. Our whole life is contained in them. When we are sick, all kinds of rupas and vipakacittas arising and falling away are contained in avyakata dhamma. Then our reactions to what we experience are contained in kusala dhamma, akusala dhamma. These words remind me that there are only these dhammas, not I who experiences. It can comfort us in time of sickness and misery. As A. Sujin often says: My you have a speedy recovery, all my best wishes to you, Nina. op 24-02-2004 03:11 schreef Ajahn Jose op ajahnjose@y...: Today I was released from intensive care after 15 days in hospital. 30549 From: Date: Tue Feb 24, 2004 5:40am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: the self... how?/Jack In a message dated 2/24/04 4:49:53 AM Central Standard Time, sarahdhhk@y... writes: “There is no concentration in one who lacks wisdom, (Natthi jhaana’m apa~n~nassa) Nor is there wisdom in him who lacks concentration. (pa~n~naa natthi ajhaayato*) In whom are both concentratio and wisdom, (Yamhi jhaana~n ca pa~n`naa ca) He, indeed, is in the presence of Nibbana. (sa ve nibbaanasantike) *see earlier discussions on jhaaya and jhaayatha, often translated as meditate, meditation and jhana. Here are some comments RobK and Jim gave before: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/11524 Sarah, Thanks for the excellent link. I posted before that I thought the split into jhana and vipassana was not in the suttas but began with the Visudhi. RopK and Jim's analysis seems to bear out this misunderstanding of the word "jhana." In that previous post, I quoted http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/modern/thanissaro/concmind.html which is Tharissaro Bhikkhu commented on the same thing.You may be interested in "A Critical Analysis of the Jhanas in Theravada Buddhist Meditation" by Henepola Gunaratana. It can be found at http://www.buddhanet.net/ftp12.htm. Sorry about the underlining but I can't get rid of it. jack 30550 From: Date: Tue Feb 24, 2004 5:57am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: the self... how?/Jack In a message dated 2/24/04 4:49:53 AM Central Standard Time, sarahdhhk@y... writes: “There is no concentration in one who lacks wisdom, (Natthi jhaana’m apa~n~nassa) Nor is there wisdom in him who lacks concentration. (pa~n~naa natthi ajhaayato*) In whom are both concentratio and wisdom, (Yamhi jhaana~n ca pa~n`naa ca) He, indeed, is in the presence of Nibbana. (sa ve nibbaanasantike) *see earlier discussions on jhaaya and jhaayatha, often translated as meditate, meditation and jhana. Here are some comments RobK and Jim gave before: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/11524 Sarah, Thanks for the excellent link. I posted before that I thought the split into jhana and vipassana was not in the suttas but began with the Visudhi. RopK and Jim's analysis seems to bear out this misunderstanding of the word "jhana." In that previous post, I quoted http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/modern/thanissaro/concmind.html which is Tharissaro Bhikkhu commented on the same thing.You may be interested in "A Critical Analysis of the Jhanas in Theravada Buddhist Meditation" by Henepola Gunaratana. It can be found at http://www.buddhanet.net/ftp12.htm. Sorry about the underlining but I can't get rid of it. jack 30551 From: buddhatrue Date: Tue Feb 24, 2004 11:06am Subject: Re: What is Vipassana? & Keeping track of daughters (was 'Unknown') Hi Victor, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "yu_zhonghao" wrote: > Hi James, > > I want to say that I find your post (#30452) to Ken reasonable. I > think it is wise to keep silent if the communication becomes > draining. > > Metta, > Victor Thank you for the encouraging words. I came across this sutta quote which I think is applicable: "Whereas some priests and contemplatives, living off food given in faith, are addicted to debates such as these -- 'You understand this doctrine and discipline? I'm the one who understands this doctrine and discipline. How could you understand this doctrine and discipline? You're practicing wrongly. I'm practicing rightly. I'm being consistent. You're not. What should be said first you said last. What should be said last you said first. What you took so long to think out has been refuted. Your doctrine has been overthrown. You're defeated. Go and try to salvage your doctrine; extricate yourself if you can!' -- he abstains from debates such as these. This, too, is part of his virtue." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/digha/dn11.html Metta, James 30552 From: buddhatrue Date: Tue Feb 24, 2004 11:53am Subject: [dsg] Re: the self... how?/Jack Hi Jack, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jackhat1@a... wrote: Thanks for the excellent link. I posted before that I thought the split into > jhana and vipassana was not in the suttas but began with the Visudhi. RopK and > Jim's analysis seems to bear out this misunderstanding of the word "jhana." > In that previous post, I quoted > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/modern/thanissaro/concmind.html which is Tharissaro Bhikkhu commented on the same > thing.You may be interested in "A Critical Analysis of the Jhanas in Theravada > Buddhist Meditation" by Henepola Gunaratana. It can be found at > http://www.buddhanet.net/ftp12.htm. > > Sorry about the underlining but I can't get rid of it. > > jack Hi Jack, The `split' into vipassana meditation and jhana meditation is in the suttas. See the Samadhi Sutta, which starts with: "Monks, these are the four developments of concentration. Which four? There is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to a pleasant abiding in the here & now. There is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to the attainment of knowledge & vision. There is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to mindfulness & alertness. There is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to the ending of the effluents." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an04-041.html That isn't to say that Jhana doesn't contain mindfulness, of course it does or it would just be going into a trance, but I think there are definite differences in the emphasis and role of both concentration and mindfulness in the two different approaches to meditation. Metta, James 30553 From: icarofranca Date: Tue Feb 24, 2004 0:13pm Subject: [dsg] Re: the self... how?/Jack Dear James: Buddhaghosa gives us a good definition of Jhana at some Chapter of Visuddhimagga mentioned here before: twofold as usual. The first is the common Buddhistic Doctrinal definition, as one can read on Suttas, The second is the wonderful and unique Buddhaghosa's method of debunking criticism - "Jhana" is a Pali word that came of twofold roots, "Thinking" and "Burn". At one side we get a familiar approach with the famous Tibetan tantric methods, that requires up years of constant practising... At the other side we must give the golden prize to Nina: Jhana is really beyond the scope of the common man at this daily life, and a more feasible door to insight stands on a careful pratice of Vipassana! ------------------------------------------------------------------- > That isn't to say that Jhana doesn't contain mindfulness, of course > it does or it would just be going into a trance, but I think there > are definite differences in the emphasis and role of both > concentration and mindfulness in the two different approaches to > meditation. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- My personal retailer had reserved me a hardcover BPS copy of Visuddhimagga...hooray!!!!! Mettaya, Ícaro 30554 From: icarofranca Date: Tue Feb 24, 2004 0:24pm Subject: [dsg] Re: the self... how?/Jack Only to add, I picked up a Jim Anderson's entry at the Pali group: --------------------------------------------------------------------- I: " Buddhaghosa gives us a good definition of Jhana at some Chapter of > Visuddhimagga mentioned here before: twofold as usual. > The first is the common Buddhistic Doctrinal definition, as one can > read on Suttas, > The second is the wonderful and unique Buddhaghosa's method of > debunking criticism " ------------------------------------------------------------------- Jim Anderson: "Jhaana is derived from either "jhe cintaaya.m" or "jhe dittiya.m" (to burn)". --------------------------------------------------------------------- This quote is out of the Sadanitti also. Mettaya, Ícaro 30555 From: buddhatrue Date: Tue Feb 24, 2004 0:45pm Subject: Re: the self... how?/Jack Hi Icaro, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "icarofranca" wrote: > Dear James: > > Buddhaghosa gives us a good definition of Jhana at some Chapter of > Visuddhimagga mentioned here before: twofold as usual. > The first is the common Buddhistic Doctrinal definition, as one can > read on Suttas, > The second is the wonderful and unique Buddhaghosa's method of > debunking criticism - "Jhana" is a Pali word that came of twofold > roots, "Thinking" and "Burn". At one side we get a familiar approach > with the famous Tibetan tantric methods, that requires up years of > constant practising... > At the other side we must give the golden prize to Nina: Jhana is > really beyond the scope of the common man at this daily life, and a > more feasible door to insight stands on a careful pratice of Vipassana! > > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > > That isn't to say that Jhana doesn't contain mindfulness, of course > > it does or it would just be going into a trance, but I think there > > are definite differences in the emphasis and role of both > > concentration and mindfulness in the two different approaches to > > meditation. > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- --- > > My personal retailer had reserved me a hardcover BPS copy of > Visuddhimagga...hooray!!!!! > > Mettaya, Ícaro Huh?? I can't follow the main gist what you are talking about. You seem to write a lot in slogans. ;-)) The only thing I can understand is the last part about what Nina said about Jhana being impossible for householders. Personally, I agree and disagree with that. Obviously, a householder who wishes to practice Jhana would have to make certain changes in lifestyle. To quote a reference about Jhana: "After establishing a foundation of purified morality, the aspirant to meditation is advised to cut off any outer impediments (palibodha) that may hinder his efforts to lead a contemplative life. These impediments are numbered as ten: a dwelling, which becomes an impediment for those who allow their minds to become preoccupied with its upkeep or with its appurtenances; a family of relatives or supporters with whom the aspirant may become emotionally involved in ways that hinder his progress; gains, which may bind the monk by obligations to those who offer them; a class of students who must be instructed; building work, which demands time and attention; travel; kin, meaning parents, teachers, pupils or close friends; illness; the study of scriptures; and supernormal powers, which are an impediment to insight (Vism.90-97; PP.91-98)." http://www.palikanon.com/english/the_jhanas/jhanas02.htm In order for me to get most of these conditions in my life I had to move out of the United States! Of course I still have a class of students but I don't see them all day, everyday, and I am not emotionally involved in their lives. But I also see that `the study of scriptures' can be a hindrance. Hmm…that one will be hard for me to give up! ;-)) (Actually, I am trying to study suttas less and less and practice mindfulness and concentration more and more…you should see a dramatic decrease in my posts to DSG). Metta, James 30556 From: christine_forsyth Date: Tue Feb 24, 2004 0:58pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Link to book on Paramis? Hello Phillip, and all Joyless Puritans :-), Uprooting the defilements is something many of us on this List are very interested in - so talk about them all you want. You may find this chapter by Ven. Payutto worth reading: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Academy/9280/coarise6.htm with joyful metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Philip" wrote: > It's all very interesting. I've been keen, for some reason, on > thinking in terms of defilements and hindrances for about 15 years > now, though not in a Buddhist context until the last couple of years, > and have been told by various friends over the years that I try too > hard. And evidence supports them on this, because the amount of > progress I've made in uprooting bad habit energies compared to the > amount of talking I do about doing so is pretty meagre! But the > intention has remained, and now I feel very happy to have found a way > to get at the defilements in a clear-cut way. > Metta, > > Philip 30557 From: icarofranca Date: Tue Feb 24, 2004 1:10pm Subject: Re: the self... how?/Jack Dear James: > > Huh?? I can't follow the main gist what you are talking about. -------------------------------------------------------------------- Heheheh... An "I beg your pardon ?" would be sufficient! You must check it out Jim Anderson's entry at Pali Group. The main idea of "Thinking" and "burn" you'll find at some Tibetan ascetic techniques to stand in Padmassana, naked and at mindfulness on the own cold and ice...brrrr!!! You'll find also many remarks on ocidental classic tradition (check it out next Christine Forsyth entry here at dsg!)... "Enflame Thyself", etc, at the old Westminister Primer or the Fantastic Four Human Torch Battlecry: "Flame on!!!!" Mettaya, Ícaro 30558 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Tue Feb 24, 2004 2:25pm Subject: Re: [dsg]_Re:_Recognizing_the_Dhamma_-_1._Dispassion_(§_1.2.) Victor, Christine and Jack (and Howard and Ken O in an earlier thread) --- yu_zhonghao wrote: > Hi Christine, > > I think that is a pertinent question: How exactly does one 'guard > the sense doors'? I understand 'guarding the sense doors' to be a reference to mindfulness, in that it is a function of mindfulness that the sense doors are guarded. If no mindfulness, the sense doors are not guarded. Vism I, 18 18. Virtue as restraint should be understood here as restraint in five ways: restraint by the Rules of the Community (Patimokkha), *restraint by mindfulness*, restraint by knowledge, restraint by patience, and restraint by energy. Herein, ... ‘restraint by mindfulness’ is this: ‘He guards the eye ‘faculty, enters upon restraint of the eye faculty’ (D.I,70). Jon > Like what is being said in the passage in DN2, > one guards one's sense doors by not grasping at any theme or > details > by which -- if he were to dwell without restraint over the faculty > of the [insert faculty] -- evil, unskillful qualities such as greed > or distress might assail him. 30559 From: Philip Date: Tue Feb 24, 2004 2:53pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Link to book on Paramis? Hello Christine, and all. Thank you for the link. I know I'm going to learn a lot from it. Oops! That was a somanassa-sahagatam ditthigata-sampayuttam asankharikam ekam! ;) > all Joyless Puritans :-) > Uprooting the defilements is something many of us on this List are > very interested in - so talk about them all you want. The folks at the other forum I belonged to seemed to think of a concern about defilements as a kind of self-loathing. They misunderstood the term. In The book on the Paramis, Nina writes "when we develop the perfections we should not expect any gain for ourselves, our goal should be eradication of defilements. If this is not our goal dana, sila and the other wholesome qualities are not perfections leading to enlightenment." I find this this echoes what Ajaan Chah said, that trying to reach purity of mind without working on the defilements is like trying to dye a grimy rag, or words to that effect. I am curious to know what answers my reading and discussion at this group will bring to this question : How and in what ways does loosening the roots of the hindrances and defilements (I assume I will not be able to remove them completely in this lifetime) allow wholesome qualities to shine through me in my daily life in the world? Of course the most important answers will come through my practice. And I'll be aware of my tendency to be hungry for answers which suggests that I still have an interest in gains for myself. >The trouble is that you think you have time --- I like this line. May I ask the source? Yesterday two ambulances at the same time in oposite directions went by and their sirens brought me back from mental babbling. I will use sirens in that way from now on, in the same way as I see frail and elderly people as helpful messengers to remind me of the true nature of rupa. Metta, Philip 30560 From: Ajahn Jose Date: Tue Feb 24, 2004 2:14pm Subject: Re: [dsg] RAjahns Jose in hospital abhidhammika wrote: Dear Ajahn Jose Sorry to hear your hospital stay. Which hospital in Canberra are you staying for operation? Only yesterday (23 February 2004), I visited Canberra Hospital between 2 p.m and 5 p.m. The niece of my (psychiatric) patient is also undergoing surgery on her 3 broken backbones from the skijet accident. When you let me know more details about suitable time to visit you, I would certainly come and see you. I wish you speedy recovery. With fivefold-touch bow, Suan ======== Dear Suan, I was at the National Capital Private Hospital. Tonight at 6.30 I am going to see my surgeon to fix the next operation to remove the kidney stones. Metta Ajhan Jose 30561 From: Michael Beisert Date: Tue Feb 24, 2004 2:56pm Subject: Re: [dsg]_Re:_Recognizing_the_Dhamma_-_1._Dispassion_(§_1.2.) Hello All. Restraint by mindfulness and patience seem quite obvious but what about restraint by knowledge and by energy? Any ideas how that works? Metta Michael ----- Original Message ----- From: Jonothan Abbott To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, February 24, 2004 5:25 PM Subject: Re: [dsg]_Re:_Recognizing_the_Dhamma_-_1._Dispassion_(§_1.2.) Victor, Christine and Jack (and Howard and Ken O in an earlier thread) --- yu_zhonghao > wrote: > Hi Christine, > > I think that is a pertinent question: How exactly does one 'guard > the sense doors'? I understand 'guarding the sense doors' to be a reference to mindfulness, in that it is a function of mindfulness that the sense doors are guarded. If no mindfulness, the sense doors are not guarded. Vism I, 18 18. Virtue as restraint should be understood here as restraint in five ways: restraint by the Rules of the Community (Patimokkha), *restraint by mindfulness*, restraint by knowledge, restraint by patience, and restraint by energy. Herein, ... 'restraint by mindfulness' is this: 'He guards the eye 'faculty, enters upon restraint of the eye faculty' (D.I,70). Jon > Like what is being said in the passage in DN2, > one guards one's sense doors by not grasping at any theme or > details > by which -- if he were to dwell without restraint over the faculty > of the [insert faculty] -- evil, unskillful qualities such as greed > or distress might assail him. 30562 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Tue Feb 24, 2004 3:09pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Link to book on Paramis? Phil --- Philip wrote: > ... > P: I'm very interested in the 4 Efforts, if that's the way they > are usually translated. ... > Could anyone tell me how these 4 Efforts are termed in Pali, so > I > can refer to them again? Thanks. This is an interesting area. Here are some links and references to have a look at. Jon http://www.palikanon.com/english/wtb/n_r/padhaana.htm: padhána 'effort.' The 4 right efforts (samma-padhána), forming the 6th stage of the 8-fold Path (i.e. sammá-váyáma, s. magga) are: (1) the effort to avoid (samvara-padhána), (2) to overcome (pahána-padhána), (3) to develop (bhávaná-padhána), (4) to maintain (anurakkhana-padhána), i.e. (1) the effort to avoid unwholesome (akusala) states, such as evil thoughts, etc. (2) to overcome unwholesome states, (3) to develop wholesome (kusala) states, such as the 7 elements of enlightenment (bojjhanga, q.v.), (4) to maintain the wholesome states. "The monk rouses his will to avoid the arising of evil, unwholesome things not yet arisen ... to overcome them ... to develop wholesome things not yet arisen ... to maintain them, and not to let them disappear, but to bring them to growth, to maturity and to the full perfection of development. And he makes effort, stirs up his energy, exerts his mind and strives" (A. IV, 13). (1) "What now, o monks, is the effort to avoid? Perceiving a form, or a sound, or an odour, or a taste, or a bodily or mental impression, the monk neither adheres to the whole nor to its parts. And he strives to ward off that through which evil and unwholesome things might arise, such as greed and sorrow, if he remained with unguarded senses; and he watches over his senses, restrains his senses. This is called the effort to avoid. (2) "What now is the effort to overcome? The monk does not retain any thought of sensual lust, or any other evil, unwholesome states that may have arisen; he abandons them, dispels them, destroys them, causes them to disappear. This is called the effort to overcome. (3) "What now is the effort to develop? The monk develops the factors of enlightenment, bent on solitude, on detachment, on extinction, and ending in deliverance, namely: mindfulness (sati), investigation of the law (dhamma-vicaya), energy (viriya), rapture (píti), tranquillity (passaddhi), concentraton (samádhi), equanimity (upekkhá). This is called the effort to develop. (4) "What now is the effort to maintain? The monk keeps firmly in his mind a favourable object of concentration, such as the mental image of a skeleton, a corpse infested by worms, a corpse blueblack in colour, a festering corpse, a corpse riddled with holes, a corpse swollen up. This is called the effort to maintain" (A. IV, 14). See under 'Effort' in the Useful Posts at: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/ 30563 From: Philip Date: Tue Feb 24, 2004 3:19pm Subject: Greeting to Nina van Gorkom Hello Nina I am reading two of your books with great interest, and would like to thank you for having made them available on the internet. I would like to make a donation to some charity in lieu of payment. Are there any sanghas or Buddhist charity groups that you are concerned are lacking dana support these days? I have no idea about where or how to offer material dana. As we say here in Japan "yoroshiku onegai shimasu." I don't know how to translate that, but I know you've lived in Japan and will understand. Metta, Philip 30564 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Tue Feb 24, 2004 4:53pm Subject: Re: Recognizing the Dhamma - 1. Dispassion (§ 1.3.) Hi all, I think when sensual desire and passion arises, the following passage would be an excellent reminder. This, as I see it, is the Dhamma that leads to dispassion, not to passion: "Sick, putrid, unclean: look, Nanda, at this physical heap. Through contemplation of the foul, develop your mind, make it one, well-centered. As this [your body], so that. As that, so this. It gives off a foul stench, the delight of fools." --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "yu_zhonghao" wrote: > § 1.3. > Sister Nanda: > > "Sick, putrid, unclean: > look, Nanda, at this physical heap. > Through contemplation of the foul, > develop your mind, > make it one, well-centered. > As this [your body], so that. > As that, so this. > It gives off a foul stench, > the delight of fools." > > Considering it thus, > untiring, both day & night, > I, with my own discernment > dissecting it, > saw. > > And as I, heedful, > examined it aptly, > this body -- as it actually is -- > was seen inside & out. > > Then was I disenchanted with the body > & dispassionate within: > Heedful, detached, > calmed was I. > > Unbound. > > > [Thig V.4] > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/study/recognizing.html#dispassion > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/khuddaka/therigatha/thig05 > .html#4 30565 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Tue Feb 24, 2004 5:23pm Subject: Recognizing the Dhamma - 1. Dispassion (§ 1.4, § 1.5.) Hi all, I have read through the passages § 1.4 and § 1.5, and I find them share a similarity: both passage are about the encounter between one who is dispassionate and one who is not. In passage § 1.4, the contrast between what the libertine said, which definitely leads to passion, and what Subha the nun said is strong. Eventually, Subha the nun plucked out her eyes, an ultimate act of dispassion, and the libertine came to his senses. In § 1.5, the interaction between Ven. Anuruddha and the woman also show the distinction between dispassion and passion. I feel that Ven. Anuruddha was in a situation that is very dangerous for one who does not guard and keep control of his sense faculties. Metta, Victor 30566 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Tue Feb 24, 2004 5:27pm Subject: Re: Recognizing the Dhamma - 1. Dispassion (§ 1.4, § 1.5.) Hi all, Here is the link to the page where passages § 1.4 and § 1.5. can be found: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/study/recognizing.html#dispassion Metta, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "yu_zhonghao" wrote: > Hi all, > > I have read through the passages § 1.4 and § 1.5, and I find them > share a similarity: both passage are about the encounter between one > who is dispassionate and one who is not. > > In passage § 1.4, the contrast between what the libertine said, > which definitely leads to passion, and what Subha the nun said is > strong. Eventually, Subha the nun plucked out her eyes, an ultimate > act of dispassion, and the libertine came to his senses. > > In § 1.5, the interaction between Ven. Anuruddha and the woman also > show the distinction between dispassion and passion. I feel that > Ven. Anuruddha was in a situation that is very dangerous for one who > does not guard and keep control of his sense faculties. > > > Metta, > Victor 30567 From: Kenneth Ong Date: Tue Feb 24, 2004 5:32pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Link to book on Paramis? Hi Philip K: Just like to add my two cents of thoughts. When there is self loathing as you mentioned of folks at the other forum, it only increase aversion which is adding defilements to defilements. This is a vicious cycle. P: How and in what ways does loosening the roots of the hindrances and defilements (I assume I will not be able to remove them completely in this lifetime) allow wholesome qualities to shine through me in my daily life in the world? k: My opinion is always seeing the nature objects of the six senses and seeing them as anatta, anicca and dukkha. Since we cannot run away from these, they make excellent learning/practise dhamma a living moment. By seeing dhammas in such a way, it is already wholesome. J: Of course the most important answers will come through my practice. And I'll be aware of my tendency to be hungry for answers which suggests that I still have an interest in gains for myself. k: I think desire or wish is very different from greed or attachment. I think because at times when we read books, some authors used desire interchangeable with greed, this cause a lot of confusion. You may like to read Nina book on cetasikas where it describe the word Chandha (zeal or desire or wish to do) and lobha (attachment). When we desire to listen to dhammas or consider dhammas by reading books, it is not greed, it is chandha. Ken O 30568 From: Date: Tue Feb 24, 2004 0:50pm Subject: Re: [dsg] A Bit More on Vi~n~nana as Subjectivity Hi, all - And yet one more thing: In what way does sankhara serve as condition for vi~n~nana? If vi~n~nana were just awareness/experience, it is unclear why volition or other formational processes would be required conditions. But if vi~n~nana is subjectivity (i.e., the sense of a knowing self), it is clear, I think, that this arises due to ignorance-conditioned sankharic construction. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 30569 From: Philip Date: Tue Feb 24, 2004 6:21pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Link to book on Paramis? --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Kenneth Ong wrote: > K: Just like to add my two cents of thoughts. When there is self > loathing as you mentioned of folks at the other forum, it only > increase aversion which is adding defilements to defilements. This > is a vicious cycle. P: Hi Ken, and all. I should clarify that the people at that other forum weren't engaged in self-loathing - it seemed that they though *I* was because of my interest in working on the defilements. It seems that because of an aversion to some aspects of other relgions that stress corrupt and fallen human nature etc some Buddhists (my Zen friends in particular) seem to think that talk of defilements amounts to self-flagellation and self-loathing, which of course it doesn't. > P: How and in what ways does loosening the roots of the hindrances > and defilements (I assume I will not be able to remove them > completely in this lifetime) allow wholesome qualities to shine > through me in my daily life in the world? > > k: My opinion is always seeing the nature objects of the six senses > and seeing them as anatta, anicca and dukkha. Since we cannot run > away from these, they make excellent learning/practise dhamma a > living moment. By seeing dhammas in such a way, it is already > wholesome. P: Yes, it's wonderful. My limited reading in Nina's books is already helping me to check on paramattha dhamma realities in the moment. I feel like a big wide window has been opened. I had been doing so to some extent in my practice already, but in a very inconsistent way. It seems that the concepts taught through the Abhidhamma will help me to practice in a much more consistent way. > J: Of course the most important answers will come through my > practice. And I'll be aware of my tendency to be hungry for answers > which suggests that I still have an interest in gains for myself. > > k: I think desire or wish is very different from greed or > attachment. I think because at times when we read books, some > authors used desire interchangeable with greed, this cause a lot of > confusion. You may like to read Nina book on cetasikas where it > describe the word Chandha (zeal or desire or wish to do) and lobha > (attachment). When we desire to listen to dhammas or consider > dhammas by reading books, it is not greed, it is chandha. P: Thank you for teaching me about Chandha. I will add that book to my reading list. And yet I'm still aware that an aspect of my interest in dhamma is an unhealthy attachment. I have to be honest and acknowledge that there is a part of me that aims to become a wise man that people will look up to. I will keep an eye on that fellow and try not to feed him. :) Metta, Philip 30570 From: Kenneth Ong Date: Tue Feb 24, 2004 7:08pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:_Recognizing_the_Dhamma_-_1._Dispassion_(§_1.4,_§_1.5.) Hi Victor and (James) First let me apologise for being too hard on both of you. Victor: Maybe I give you too brief of an answer to your question of dispassion, this time I provide a more detail one. Lets deal with the first two qualites, dispassion and unfettered. Passion and desire are dependent on the meeting of eye and forms. Hence in another way there is fetter. If you see your quote on 1.5 where Ven. Anuruddha in dispassion when his eyes and form met, it will not be possible for this Ven if he does not understand the four Noble Truth because desire and passion will have arise in him. In many suttas, acquiring of direct knowledge is about understanding the four Noble truth (if you wish I could provide you the suttas quote). Thus learning the 8NP leads one to dipassion and unfettered (right understanding and right view) When one is unfettered, one sheds, to me it is shedding of the three unwholesome roots. When one shed the three unwholesome roots, the attachment to self (atta) will also be shed, that means one is naturally modest. Again when one shed attachment to self, one will shed that one will gain this or that and that is what I call one is contented. Then again how does one is contented, one follow the Pattimoka (usually as the perfection for a virture/morality of venerables), that is vinaya (Right speech, action and livelihood)(also righ view because one is contented one dont covet). When one shed attachment to self, one is no longer in entangalement. One does not entangle with dhammas that this is I, this mine, this is myself. One will see dhammas as anatta. When one consider suffering and impermanence, one understanding there is nothing to gain in sensual pleasure which only lead to more suffering, one arose zeal (Right Effort) naturally to endeavour to release ourselves from this suffering. Hence resulting on is persistence in practising satipatthana (right mindfulness) in eradicating the three unwholesome roots. When one is in persistence, one is unburdersome by the defilements or material needs, then one is withdraw of sensual pleasure, one attains jhanas etc.... (right concentration) Hence the whole eight qualities are found in the 8NP and that is why I said right understanding of the six senses (which is inflame with tanha) of the three characteristics as my brief answer. Then you asked Sarah how does Abhdidhamma applies here? For myself, I take this opportunity to explain why is a need to know namas and rupas. When we discern rupas as rupas and namas as namas, it helps to break down the conceptual world especiall when we are surrounded by five of the six senses which are rupas. If we see the example of the venerable, the lady is just the beauitful form is just visible rupa, sweet sound is just sound rupa and perfume is just aroma rupas, the concept of lady vanishes. We also note the rupas with the three characteristics. When this concept vanish, the tendecy of lobha to arise due to conditioned by a concept will also decrease. Alternatively, when lobha arise due to conditioning by a concept, we understand lobha with three characteristics. We dont worry whether it is conditioned by a lady concept, we must note lobha as lobha and lobha with the three characteristics. Without understanding reality, we will be moving around in circles in this conceptual samasara world. Ken O 30571 From: Kenneth Ong Date: Tue Feb 24, 2004 7:19pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Link to book on Paramis? Hi Philip Reading you post spur me with zeal to consider dhamma more and more. I encourage you to work to undertsand defilements as what you have done, because only when we know the disease then we are able to cure it and not the other way around. Ken O 30572 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Tue Feb 24, 2004 8:34pm Subject: [dsg] Re:_Recognizing_the_Dhamma_-_1._Dispassion_(§_1.4,_§_1.5.) Hi Ken O, Thank you for your detail answer. From passage § 1.5., what the woman did in front of Ven. Anuruddha obviously leads to passion, not dispassion. One thing I see as the Vinaya that leads to dispassion, as Ven. Anuruddha demonstrated, is 'keeping control of his faculties, didn't as much as glance at her or say even a word.' Metta, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Kenneth Ong wrote: > Hi Victor and (James) [snip] > Victor: > Maybe I give you too brief of an answer to your question of > dispassion, this time I provide a more detail one. > > Lets deal with the first two qualites, dispassion and unfettered. > Passion and desire are dependent on the meeting of eye and forms. > Hence in another way there is fetter. If you see your quote on 1.5 > where Ven. Anuruddha in dispassion when his eyes and form met, it > will not be possible for this Ven if he does not understand the four > Noble Truth because desire and passion will have arise in him. In > many suttas, acquiring of direct knowledge is about understanding the > four Noble truth (if you wish I could provide you the suttas quote). > Thus learning the 8NP leads one to dipassion and unfettered (right > understanding and right view) > > When one is unfettered, one sheds, to me it is shedding of the three > unwholesome roots. When one shed the three unwholesome roots, the > attachment to self (atta) will also be shed, that means one is > naturally modest. > > Again when one shed attachment to self, one will shed that one will > gain this or that and that is what I call one is contented. Then > again how does one is contented, one follow the Pattimoka (usually as > the perfection for a virture/morality of venerables), that is vinaya > (Right speech, action and livelihood)(also righ view because one is > contented one dont covet). > > When one shed attachment to self, one is no longer in entangalement. > One does not entangle with dhammas that this is I, this mine, this is > myself. One will see dhammas as anatta. > > When one consider suffering and impermanence, one understanding there > is nothing to gain in sensual pleasure which only lead to more > suffering, one arose zeal (Right Effort) naturally to endeavour to > release ourselves from this suffering. Hence resulting on is > persistence in practising satipatthana (right mindfulness) in > eradicating the three unwholesome roots. > > When one is in persistence, one is unburdersome by the defilements or > material needs, then one is withdraw of sensual pleasure, one attains > jhanas etc.... (right concentration) > > Hence the whole eight qualities are found in the 8NP and that is why > I said right understanding of the six senses (which is inflame with > tanha) of the three characteristics as my brief answer. > > Then you asked Sarah how does Abhdidhamma applies here? > > For myself, I take this opportunity to explain why is a need to know > namas and rupas. When we discern rupas as rupas and namas as namas, > it helps to break down the conceptual world especiall when we are > surrounded by five of the six senses which are rupas. If we see the > example of the venerable, the lady is just the beauitful form is just > visible rupa, sweet sound is just sound rupa and perfume is just > aroma rupas, the concept of lady vanishes. We also note the rupas > with the three characteristics. When this concept vanish, the tendecy > of lobha to arise due to conditioned by a concept will also decrease. > > Alternatively, when lobha arise due to conditioning by a concept, we > understand lobha with three characteristics. We dont worry whether > it is conditioned by a lady concept, we must note lobha as lobha and > lobha with the three characteristics. Without understanding > reality, we will be moving around in circles in this conceptual > samasara world. > > > > Ken O 30573 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Feb 24, 2004 9:32pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Link to book on Paramis? Hi Philip, op 24-02-2004 15:01 schreef Philip op plnao@j...: > I think Nina Van Gorkom's books invite us to stop whatever it is > we're doing thorughout the day and check our awareness of rupa > and nama in the moment. N: I appreciate your interest, but this is not my idea at all! In that case there can easily be a self who wants to do something, even something constructive. It depends on the citta whether it reflects on realities or not, and this is conditioned by listening. There is no need to stop what one is doing. We should not expect direct awareness to arise at different moments of the day, it will arise when there are conditions for it. It is best not even to think of sati. The most important is right understanding and that has to begin at the level of intellectual understanding. That is a foundation that can condition later on direct understanding. Not us who can stop and check *our awareness*. Ph: I have to admit, how people will love and admire me for it. I do, I'm afraid. Fortunately I'm aware of it and am able to laugh at it now. N: I like this part, very sincere. We have to develop the perfection of truthfulness, being honest as to oneself also. Knowing that what we take for awareness is still thinking. I laugh too at such things. I told my husband Lodewijk, that I was praised on dsg and that I had immediately conceit. He beat his breast and cried out loudly: conceit, conceit! We are really joking about it, it helps in a way to take distance. Next day there is blame for sure. These are merely very short moments conditioned by kamma. But instead of pinpointing all such things we can learn characteristics of realities when they appear, very gradually, as A. Sujin says time and again. Ph: Being aware, in a flash, of Khandas, to the extent that I am able to now. N: I used to take thinking (even in a flash) for awareness, but I was cured of that after discussions in the train in India with A. Sujin, the late Ven. Dhammadharo, Jon and others. A. Sujin said, I do not find this discouraging. It is true, and truthfulness can only bring us good. What is the use of deluding ourselves. And also now, it is difficult to know when there is thinking of realities and when awareness. But I tend to think less of sati. Understanding is the goal and this leads to detachment. First detachment from the idea of self. Nice talking to you, Nina. 30574 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Feb 24, 2004 9:32pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Recognizing the Dhamma - The Eight Principles Hi Victor, op 24-02-2004 15:53 schreef yu_zhonghao op yu_zhonghao@y...: I think at the > moment the topic is on recognizing whether something is the Dhamma, > the Vinaya, the Teacher's instruction. The Buddha taught > Mahapajapati Gotami that: > > > "Gotami, the qualities of which you may know, 'These qualities lead: > > > to passion, not to dispassion;(snipped) You may definitely hold, 'This is not the Dhamma, this is not the > Vinaya, this is not the Teacher's instruction.' > > "As for the qualities of which you may know, 'These qualities lead: etc. N: Yes, quite right. Let us combine Sarah's quotes from the Intro to the Vinaya and what you quote here. I see it this way: the Buddha taught the Three Baskets and stressed that we should compare text with text, examine the truth. And the practice should be in agreement with the truth. like in the Kesaputta sutta (called Kalama) we should verify the practice with all he taught in the Three Baskets. We can verify:what leads to more attachment, what leads to detachment. Whatever we practise should lead to detachment. This is the goal. We can come to the conclusion: understanding realities appearing at this moment is in accordance with what we read before in the texts. I just heard on tape A. Sujin saying: This seems simple and very general, but it means: performing kusala not for one's own sake, not with an idea of my kusala. As Sarah quoted: the Abhidhamma helps us to see that there is no self. We learn to see citta, cetasika and rupa as very impersonal, impersonal elements arising because of conditions. We learn to see the momentariness of dhammas when we study processes of cittas. Details help. I appreciate the way you lead this discussion, Victor. It helps me to consider more. Nina. 30575 From: Kenneth Ong Date: Tue Feb 24, 2004 9:45pm Subject: Re: [dsg]_Re:_Recognizing_the_Dhamma_-_1._Dispassion_(§_1.4,_§_1.5.) Hi Victor There is no doubt that there are benefits of Vinaya. Vinaya is only the start of the practise take, a look at Ganakamoggallana Sutta, Vinaya is equates to morality, then after there are other gradual training like sense control etc....(which are all part and parcel of 8NP) Hence to me vinaya is a leading tool but not a total tool by itself I think we must not forget that mental portion because Buddha describe mental more powerful than physical actions. See Upali Sutta MN 56 Let me quote you this sutta portion < The sutta carries on ... When it is said keeping control of the faculties, it is not just Vinaya. I think Vinaya only covers the way Monks look at people, I do not know whether it includes hearing and smelling faculties. Neverthesless, let take a look at this sutta MN 451, Kandaraka Sutta "On seeing a form with the eye, he does not grasp at its sign and features. Since if he left the eye faculty unguarded, evil unwholesome states of covetousness and grief might invade him, he practise the way of its restraint, he guards the eye faculty, he undertakes the restraint of the eye faculty.....hearing, smelling, flavouring and congnizing of a mind object." So we can see these are all mostly mental portion and not physical. Ken O P.S> I think it will be good if you get the MN and SN suttas translated by Bodhi. There are more sutta for you to look and investigate than those in accesstoinsight suttas. 30576 From: Philip Date: Tue Feb 24, 2004 10:41pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Link to book on Paramis? --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > Hi Philip, > op 24-02-2004 15:01 schreef Philip op plnao@j...: > > > I think Nina Van Gorkom's books invite us to stop whatever it is > > we're doing thorughout the day and check our awareness of rupa > > and nama in the moment. > N: I appreciate your interest, but this is not my idea at all! In that case > there can easily be a self who wants to do something, even something > constructive. It depends on the citta whether it reflects on realities or > not, and this is conditioned by listening. There is no need to stop what one > is doing. We should not expect direct awareness to arise at different > moments of the day, it will arise when there are conditions for it. P: Hello Nina. That was a careless wording on my part. I should have said "this beginner" instead of "us", and perhaps "this group" instead of "Nina's books." The realites in the Abhidhamma, and those discussed at this group, are new to me, so there will be an awkward stage while, still firmly bundled in self, I begin to learn how to see beyond all my conceptual baggage to absolute realities. In my case, it will mean consciously using certain times of the day - for example when I'm sitting on the train or walking home or walking down the corridor toward the classroom where I teach English - to do so. This will represent nothing more than a beginner's first steps. Sorry for misrepresenting your books! I wonder how I should take this sentence from the preface to ABL: "While we are studying the different names and rupas and while we are pondering over them, we can be reminded to be aware of rupa and nama appearng at that moment." I took that as a kind of exericise, to be consciously aware of rupa and nama when I find myselfe pondering things, which I invariably do during my train ride to and from work. > It is best not even to think of sati. The most important is right understanding > and that has to begin at the level of intellectual understanding. That is a > foundation that can condition later on direct understanding. Not us who can > stop and check *our awareness*. P: I can see what you mean. That's what I love about this group, the way it gently urges me towards right understanding. In one of my first posts the other day, I said that I feared angry outburts as the greatest danger on the path and someone - I think it was Sarah- hinted that I should consider a lack of right understanding that would allow those angry outbursts to arise as the greatest danger. That was very helpful. Radically helpful. > N: I like this part, very sincere. We have to develop the perfection of > truthfulness, being honest as to oneself also. Knowing that what we take for > awareness is still thinking. I laugh too at such things. Nina van Gorkom liked what I said! I *am* a wise man! :) > Ph: Being aware, in a flash, of Khandas, to the extent that I am able to > now. > N: I used to take thinking (even in a flash) for awareness, but I was cured > of that after discussions in the train in India with A. Sujin, the late Ven. > Dhammadharo, Jon and others. I'm afraid I won't be able to let go of my tendency to think in conceptual terms any day soon, but at least I now understand the need to do so. In the meantime, I will try to use my tendency to think in stories in as skillful a way as possible, and being able to think of myself and understand myself as a bundle of aggregates has got to be better than thinking of myself and admiring myself as a vessel of love and light like I used to. Of course I didn't mean to suggest that this "flash" I referred to was anything like a moment of deep insight. Just taking a quick moment to think about Khandas. Alas, I am still a thinking animal. Nice talking to you. Sorry again for misrepresenting your book. It really is very energizing getting into the practice discussed at this group. The last time I can remember being so absorbed in something is when I started studying Japanese Kanji characters about 15 years ago. Metta, Philip 30577 From: buddhatrue Date: Tue Feb 24, 2004 11:27pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Link to book on Paramis? Hi Philip, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Philip" wrote: > P: Hello Nina. > That was a careless wording on my part. I should have said "this > beginner" instead of "us", and perhaps "this group" instead > of "Nina's books." The realites in the Abhidhamma, and those > discussed at this group, are new to me, so there will be an awkward > stage while, still firmly bundled in self, I begin to learn how to > see beyond all my conceptual baggage to absolute realities. In my > case, it will mean consciously using certain times of the day - for > example when I'm sitting on the train or walking home or walking down > the corridor toward the classroom where I teach English - to do so. > This will represent nothing more than a beginner's first steps. Sorry > for misrepresenting your books! I think what you describe here is quite reasonable. Actually though, I would not separate you from others because really we are all beginners. We begin again each minute/second/nano-second. Just as one cannot really see the passing landscape from a speeding vehicle, one cannot really see namas and rupas until there is a stopping, looking, and considering. However, I believe you are going to find that Nina does not agree with this outlook, even for the `beginner'. She emphases that ANY effort to recognize namas and rupas, any `stopping' of superfluous activities to do this, is a reinforcement of the false belief in `self'. Think what you will about this but I believe that such a view makes Buddhism absolutely pointless. If nothing is done is purposefully done, nothing will happen. I am glad that you are enamored with the works of Nina because I believe there is very valuable information to be found there. However, I would also like to suggest that you read the works of other writers whose perspectives on the Abhidhamma don't contain the same `non-action' outlook as Nina posits. Here are some links for you to consider: http://www.abhidhamma.org/dhamma_theory_philosophical_corn.htm http://www.lankalibrary.com/Bud/time.htm Metta, James Ps. I don't see a photo of you in the Members folder. Would you mind uploading one? I am curious to see your visage since I am also a fellow English teacher in a foreign land (Cairo, Egypt) ;-). 30578 From: Sarah Date: Tue Feb 24, 2004 11:35pm Subject: Repost for Nina & Ven Yanatharo -- Yet more discussion (and food) Dear Bhante & Nina, Nina wrote and asked me to repost some comments I made after returning from Thailand (and not just a link)which she missed and it occurs to me that you, Ven.Yanatharo (Ajahn Jose), may have missed them too, so I'll do so on list. I’m editing my earlier post a little as I go. Others will probably wish to ignore it. (Nina or Bhante, pls ask Christine to repost hers if you didn’t see it either). Metta, Sarah ****** Sarah >For me personally, it was wonderful to see quite a number of very old dhamma friends (around 10 that we’ve known from the 70s), medium old dhamma friends and more recent ones who we’ve got to know from here. Friends were from all over the world and many we’d have liked to have spent more time with and several said the same, but that’s always the way of attachment.(‘Just get to the Dhamma’,KenO will be telling me!!) When Christine mentioned Ven Yanatharo was to be in town at the same time for Robert Eddington’s ordination, we encouraged her to invite them to the discussions too. Only Ven Y. arrived, but there we all were armed with dhamma discussion ‘ammunition’. VenY arrived with his direct questions that others consider asking, but only he would ask A.Sujin, directly, in his loud and clear voice and with a big twinkle in his eye - Qs relating to comments he’d heard about her and the Foundation, about her views on the Sangha, her levels of attainment and so on;-) She’s an expert in answering questions with questions, but it was all in the best of humour. Jon has already mentioned his concern about there not being a Buddha image at the Foundation anywhere. A lot was also heard and considered about the Vinaya and the difficulties of the monk’s life these days by Ven Y. It was pointed out that any life has difficulties;-) I appreciated most Ven Y’s questions about rebirth and self, spirit, soul. We gave answers about why we might have confidence in rebirth and these mostly related to the present moment. I mentioned that while there was no understanding of conditions now, there was bound to be uncertainty about the next moment, next life and an idea of self and so on. I could tell Ven Y found most the answers unconvincing, but when we checked DSG that evening, a friend had given the perfect answer with a quote from the Paccaya Sutta* also indicating that without an understanding of conditions there will always be a wondering about ‘what was I in the past....’, ‘what will I be in the future.....’ and so on. I printed it out to give Ven Y the next day, but we didn’t see him again. Instead, I showed it to Nina's husband, Lodewijk, and he appreciated it. Perhaps Ven Y add his own impressions on this ‘funny little list’ as he chose to call DSG;-) KenO came armed with a copy of the commentary to the Abhidammattha Sangaha and a very fast tongue and mind - too fast for the rest of us to keep up with at times. His first question related to the arising of the group of primary rupas - I’m not sure he got the answer he was looking for or whether anyone really understood the question (KenO - ‘You know, Howard’s qu’). A.Sujin began testing him throughout the day on his Abhidhamma knowledge. He was pretty wise and well-prepared for this and gave all the right answers;-). His good humour (just like on list), asides and keen interest were key reasons as to why the discussions were so meaty and yet enjoyable and fun too;-). I’m still not sure why he thinks it’s so dangerous to travel in the same car as any of us and would rather hike down Charoen Nakorn Road (long, busy and polluted) or why he’s convinced it’s a waste of time for me to offer any pleasantries such as ‘how’s your tea?’ or welcomes to new members, (KenO: “if it’s not dhamma it’s akusala”), but then as I say, we were all a bit slow for him and I’m sure he would have liked to fast forward us all or to zap as he can do on list.‘That’s a waste of time’ - zap!. Christine arrived with a bag of texts as well, including B.Bodhi’s AN anthology and of course she managed to bring Angulimala, Vessantara and a few of her favourites (!) into various discussions too. She’s becoming quite one of the ‘oldies’ and was even heard giving and finding translations for Pali terms during discussions ;-) We met at the airport yesterday and had a final few words on victims at work and in the suttas - no conclusions but I think we all learnt more about our accumulations. Certainly (thanks KenO again), I learnt more about my frivolous ones;-) ...and Jon was armed with the Visuddhimagga, Betty with the Nyantiloka dictionary (most useful at these discussions), Nina and I with plenty of Abhidhamma qus from DSG, ready for any lulls or pauses. We thanked Larry, Howard, RobM and others for many of these further points and considerations. I know Nina will be writing more, so I can unpack now;-). Indeed, Nina was waiting for us on our arrival to refine and check my book of qus, Azita;-) As Jon said, our old friend Vince arrived with all the meditation and samatha questions and honestly, at times, K.Sujin couldn’t get a word in either. It was never boring and the lunches and brunch together were most enjoyable too..... dhamma and catch-up (Ok, KenO - dhamma and lobha). Many thanks to all who joined us in Bkk and especially to Betty and Sukin for coordinating us all so well while we were there. Even greater thanks to all those who have been contributing here in our absence in such good form and humour and thereby enabling us to really take a good break knowing we were leaving the list in your good finger-tips. With metta, Sarah ====== *Paccaya Sutta http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn12-020.html ""When a disciple of the noble ones has seen well with right discernment this dependent co-arising & these dependently co-arisen phenomena as they are actually present, it is not possible that he would run after the past, thinking, 'Was I in the past? Was I not in the past? What was I in the past? How was I in the past? Having been what, what was I in the past?' or that he would run after the future, thinking, 'Shall I be in the future? Shall I not be in the future? What shall I be in the future? How shall I be in the future? Having been what, what shall I be in the future?' or that he would be inwardly perplexed about the immediate present, thinking, 'Am I? Am I not? What am I? How am I? Where has this being come from? Where is it bound?' Such a thing is not possible. Why is that? Because the disciple of the noble ones has seen well with right discernment this dependent co-arising & these dependently co-arisen phenomena as they are actually present." ============================ 30579 From: Sarah Date: Tue Feb 24, 2004 11:57pm Subject: The mind of a person in a coma F/W message from a new friend, Hasituppada. ============================================ Dear Dhamma friends, When a person is in deep sleep,his sense faculties are temporarily in abeyance. The mind goes into the first thought moment of present life - bhavanga, which is the jeevitindriya-the life maintaining consciousness. Dreams in such a state may be the activation of sanna cetasika (?) Besides deep sleep, there are two states in which similar situations may exist (i) a person who has fainted and (ii) a person in a coma. In these states how does the mind function, maintaining the life continuum. Is there relevant reference in the Abhidhamma or Suttas ? A person who comes out of a coma remembers their "experiences" in that state. Some faculties at least may still function, like hearing, smelling, feelings, and the thoughts, though the mind is unable to stimulate the body to react. The biological processes continue to function as the consciousness is present. So it may be a constant falling into and coming out of the bhavanga during the period of the coma, with citta-cetasika arising and falling away from time to time as the minds fluctuate between one state (bhavanga) and the other(citta) Could you please explain with reference to relevant passages in Dhamma, if any. I also invite other Dhamma friends to give their points view. With metta Hasituppada 30580 From: Sarah Date: Wed Feb 25, 2004 0:01am Subject: Names of suttas > F/W 2nd message from a new friend, Hasituppada. > ============================================ Dear Friend, I have noticed that in the posts of this group when there is a reference to a Sutta, the name of the Sutta is not given. Is it because the name is a concept ! It is a pity because it is very easy to get at the sutta in any Buddhis website if the name od the Sutta is given. Every Sutta has a name. with metta, Hasituppada 30581 From: christine_forsyth Date: Wed Feb 25, 2004 0:28am Subject: [dsg]_Re:_Recognizing_the_Dhamma_-_1._Dispassion_(§_1.2.) Hello Michael, Jon and all, Vis. 18 goes on to say: "'Restraint by knowledge' is this: "The currents in the world that flow, Ajita," said the Blessed One, '"Are stemmed by means of mindfulness; '"Restraint of currents I proclaim, '"By understanding they are damned"' (Sn. 1035) and use of requisites is here combined with this. But what is called 'restraint by patience' is that given in the way beginning 'He is one who bears cold and heat' (M.i,10). And what is called 'restraint by energy' is that given in the way beginning 'He does not endure a thought of sense-desires 'when it arises' (M.i,11); purification of livelihood is here combined with this. So this five-fold restraint, and the abstinence, in clansmen who dread evil, from any chance of transgression met with, should all be understood to be 'virtue as restraint'". metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Michael Beisert" wrote: > Hello All. > > Restraint by mindfulness and patience seem quite obvious but what about restraint by knowledge and by energy? Any ideas how that works? > > Metta > Michael > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Jonothan Abbott > To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Tuesday, February 24, 2004 5:25 PM > Subject: Re: [dsg]_Re:_Recognizing_the_Dhamma_-_1._Dispassion_ (§_1.2.) > > > Victor, Christine and Jack (and Howard and Ken O in an earlier > thread) > > --- yu_zhonghao > wrote: > Hi Christine, > > > > I think that is a pertinent question: How exactly does one 'guard > > the sense doors'? > > I understand 'guarding the sense doors' to be a reference to > mindfulness, in that it is a function of mindfulness that the sense > doors are guarded. If no mindfulness, the sense doors are not > guarded. > > Vism I, 18 > 18. Virtue as restraint should be understood here as restraint in > five ways: restraint by the Rules of the Community (Patimokkha), > *restraint by mindfulness*, restraint by knowledge, restraint by > patience, and restraint by energy. > Herein, ... 'restraint by mindfulness' is this: 'He guards the eye > 'faculty, enters upon restraint of the eye faculty' (D.I,70). > > Jon > > > Like what is being said in the passage in DN2, > > one guards one's sense doors by not grasping at any theme or > > details > > by which -- if he were to dwell without restraint over the faculty > > of the [insert faculty] -- evil, unskillful qualities such as greed > > or distress might assail him. > > > 30582 From: christine_forsyth Date: Wed Feb 25, 2004 0:31am Subject: [dsg]_Re:_Recognizing_the_Dhamma_-_1._Dispassion_(§_1.2.) M, J, and all, That should be '"By understanding they are dammed"' not 'damned'. :-) metta, C --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" 30583 From: Eznir Date: Wed Feb 25, 2004 0:47am Subject: [dsg] Re: Catching Anger- Directing Dear Sarah & Friends, S:I just read the full sutta. (PTS `A grain of salt' and it's a really excellent one. Do you have a link for others to read in full? http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an03-099.html S: In another thread on nama and rupa, I think you suggested that the difference between these `is not in the things in itself....It is our mental fabrications that construct various stories about the things we cognize'. I think I partly agree and partly disagree, if I understand correctly. S: I agree that `intention is action', intention (cetana cetasika) is also conditioned. Who or what directs this intention? E: How is it that intentions could be directed is the question. Lord Buddha in the Khajjaniya Sutta(Chewed Up) in SN-XXII.79 says: And what, monks, do you say are determinations(sankhára)? 'They determine the determined': that, monks, is why they are called 'determinations'. And what is the determined that they determine? Matter as matter is the determined that they determine, Feeling as feeling is the determined that they determine, Perception as perception is the determined that they determine, Determinations as determinations are the determined that they determine, Consciousness as consciousness is the determined that they determine. 'They determine the determined': that indeed, monks, is why they are called 'determinations'. (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn22-079.html) Expounded here are the function of Sankhára, how the 5-holding- aggregates, of which we are burdened with, are determined. This is to say a thing is what it is determined for. A polluted mind(citta/consciousness) is a polluted mind, that's it and think no further. And what makes a mind polluted? The contents (cetasikas/sankharas) of the mind, that's it and think no further. These are observable when one performs the cittánupassaná and dhammánupassaná. How does one purify the mind? Fill it up with Wholesome/skillful(kusala) states. How? By intending bodily, verbally and mentally. What does one intend? That which is wholesome(37- enlightenment factors) and conducive to Nibbana. Selection process? Wise attention. So, given here, in brief, is the process by which this `directing the mind' towards Nibbana is achieved. It's easier said than done though!! Read Dvedavitakka Sutta MN-19 to see how Lord Buddha directed his mind to sort two types of thoughts, the kusala and akusala. http://www.metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/2Majjhima- Nikaya/Majjhima1/019-dvedhavitakka-sutta-e1.htm metta eznir 30584 From: Eznir Date: Wed Feb 25, 2004 0:53am Subject: Re: [dsg] Why is Dhamma subjective? Dear Howard & Friends, I certainly agree with the brief account of the Dhamma you have written, the reality of the experience of the 5-holding-agregates in particular. For there are those who think that these aggregates too are an illusion. The subject/object duality nature of things is certainly an illusion. Sometimes one finds profound teachings of the Dhamma being discussed and debated over to the very detail in abstraction. Even the writings of learned Teachers and commentaries are subjected to doubt and controversy. Then there are those who read Dhamma books of all sorts and find difficulty in comprehending all what is written there. And finally their discussion taper off to a tangent leaving the Dhamma aside. When what really matters is the Dhukka that is being created in oneself! The Dhamma is closer home in these 5-holding-aggregates. This is where Dhamma is subjective, `I am suffering'. And when one comprehends this, this statement turns to `This is suffering'. But still the aroma of `I am' have not left the one who suffers. Only an Arahat does not suffer. Note the imperative ".. he does not conceive …….." in case of the Arahat. The Arahant "A monk who is a Worthy One, ---- directly knows earth as earth. Directly knowing earth as earth, he does not conceive things about earth,--------" [MN-01] The Trainee "A monk who is a trainee -- yearning for the unexcelled relief from bondage, his aspirations as yet unfulfilled -- directly knows earth as earth. Directly knowing earth as earth, let him not conceive things about earth, ------- " [MN-01] But those in training, `…… let him not conceive….", which implies he still does conceive. But what does he conceive? The Dhamma that is wholesome. These Dhammas too are sankharic constructions. But what do they construct? The noble 8-fold path, the path to all cessation of constructions. And how does one construct this path? Through intentions. Because intending is what one normally does every moment of the day. How does he intend? Through body, speech and mind; the very same 5-holding- aggregates that he is burdened with. Now that he knows "this"(5- holding-aggregates) is suffering, he uses the very same aggregates to get out of. "Bhikkus, I shall show you how the Dhamma is similar to a raft, being for the purpose of crossing over, not for the purpose of grasping". [MN-22] The one who has crossed over is the Arahat. The one who is on the raft crossing over are the Trainees. The one who is beside the bank thinking of crossing over are the wordlings(uninstructed commoners). The river being crossed is the flood of defilements. The raft is the Dhamma, principally the 37 enlightenment factors (bhojjanga dhamma). Metta eznir 30585 From: christine_forsyth Date: Wed Feb 25, 2004 0:53am Subject: Re: Names of suttas Hello Hasituppada :-) , and all, Thank you for your posts, as usual they are stimuli for much reflection. Welcome to DhammaStudyGroup! :-) I have really enjoyed and learned from your discussions elsewhere and look forward, hopefully, to your continuing contributions to dsg. My understanding is that suttas don't have any fixed names, and that different translators give them different titles. e.g. Thanissaro Bhikkhu calls Samyutta Nikaya XXXV.28 the Aditta-pariyaya Sutta 'The Fire Sermon' - while Bhikkhu Bodhi calls the same sutta 'Burning' in his wonderful 'The Connected Discourses of the Buddha' A New Translation of the Samyutta Nikaaya. metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > > > F/W 2nd message from a new friend, Hasituppada. > > ============================================ > > Dear Friend, > > I have noticed that in the posts of this group when there is a > reference to a Sutta, the name of the Sutta is not given. Is it > because the name is a concept ! > > It is a pity because it is very easy to get at the sutta in any > Buddhis website if the name od the Sutta is given. Every Sutta has a > name. > > with metta, > Hasituppada 30586 From: christine_forsyth Date: Wed Feb 25, 2004 1:46am Subject: [dsg] Re: Link to book on Paramis? Hello Philip, and all, I can well understand your friend's reactions. One of my first comments on this list was about the use of words like 'defilements' - I thought the language was too harsh, almost impolite. Like your friends, I thought it seemed to show self-loathing - or low self esteem. :-) Notice all the selves? Slowly, I learn about anatta, and, much more slowly, understanding incrementally grows. I was also asked about my signature quote on another list, and this is the reply I gave there. I think one can never over emphasise the fragility of life, and there is a need to point out that the Buddha taught the dangers of rebirth. That very very few are reborn in human form, or in the dispensation of a buddha when the teachings are available. The work needs to be done Now. The quote I add after my signature "The trouble is that you think you have time" is part of my daily reminder to myself about my ever approaching death. Especially, to try to have a sense that it could be at any moment. People assume that they'll live to the extreme of old age for their nationality - usually they think it will be in their 80's, 90's or older. We all know intellectually that we will die one day - but we always push it into the future. When I have contact with patients who have been told they have a terminal illness, whether they are 20 years old or 92 years old they always say things like - "I know I have to die one day, but I didn't think it would be for ( insert number of years). Or they say, "I know I have to die one day, but I need to do (insert task) first." My signature quote is a short paraphrase of the message in suttas below - I think I read it in a book by Jack Kornfield once. From 'The Archer' SN XX.6 "Faster than the speed of that man, faster than the speed of the sun & moon, faster than the speed of the devas who rush ahead of the sun & moon, the force of one's life span comes to an end. Thus you should train yourselves: 'We will live heedfully.' That's how you should train yourselves." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn20-006.html From 'The Simile of the Mountains' SN III.25 "Like massive boulders, mountains pressing against the sky, moving in from all sides, crushing the four directions, so aging and death come rolling over living beings: noble warriors, priests, merchants, workers, outcastes, & scavengers. They spare nothing. They trample everything. >>snip<< So a wise person, seeing his own good, steadfast, secures confidence in the Buddha, Dhamma, & Sangha. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn03-025.html metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Philip" wrote: > > > Hello Christine, and all. <<>> > The folks at the other forum I belonged to seemed to think of a > concern about defilements as a kind of self-loathing. They > misunderstood the term. In The book on the Paramis, Nina writes "when > we develop the perfections we should not expect any gain for > ourselves, our goal should be eradication of defilements. If this is > not our goal dana, sila and the other wholesome qualities are not > perfections leading to enlightenment." I find this this echoes what > Ajaan Chah said, that trying to reach purity of mind without working > on the defilements is like trying to dye a grimy rag, or words to > that effect. > I am curious to know what answers my reading and discussion at this > group will bring to this question : How and in what ways does > loosening the roots of the hindrances and defilements (I assume I > will not be able to remove them completely in this lifetime) allow > wholesome qualities to shine through me in my daily life in the > world? Of course the most important answers will come through my > practice. And I'll be aware of my tendency to be hungry for answers > which suggests that I still have an interest in gains for myself. > > >The trouble is that you think you have time --- > > I like this line. May I ask the source? > Metta, > Philip 30587 From: Manu Wadhwani Date: Wed Feb 25, 2004 2:00am Subject: Re: Ajhan Jose in Hospital Dear Ajhan: I am sorry to hear about your infection. I hope the operation goes well. May you recover and get back to your practice soon. Metta Manu Wadhwani ----- Original Message ----- > Dear Suan, I was at the National > Capital Private Hospital. Tonight at 6.30 I am going to see my surgeon to fix the next operation to remove the kidney stones. Metta Ajhan Jose 30588 From: christine_forsyth Date: Wed Feb 25, 2004 2:25am Subject: Re: Ajhan Jose in Hospital Hello Manu :-) Lovely to see you 'in print'! I hope you have had a look at the DSG meetings photo album pictures of us all in Bangkok last month - you are in photo 23 between Ven Yanatharo (Ajahn Jose) and Ivan - all looking very serious and listening intently ... :-) http://tinyurl.com/4wyq metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Manu Wadhwani" wrote: > Dear Ajhan: > > I am sorry to hear about your infection. I hope the operation goes well. > May you recover and get back to your practice soon. > > Metta > Manu Wadhwani 30589 From: christine_forsyth Date: Wed Feb 25, 2004 2:28am Subject: Re: Ajhan Jose in Hospital/Typo Ooops! make that photo 20 of 23. metta, Chris --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Hello Manu :-) > > Lovely to see you 'in print'! > I hope you have had a look at the DSG meetings photo album pictures > of us all in Bangkok last month - you are in photo 23 between Ven > Yanatharo (Ajahn Jose) and Ivan - all looking very serious and > listening intently ... :-) > http://tinyurl.com/4wyq > > metta and peace, > Christine > ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- 30590 From: Sarah Date: Wed Feb 25, 2004 3:16am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Ajhan Jose in Hospital Hi Manu (& Christine), --- christine_forsyth wrote: > Hello Manu :-) > > Lovely to see you 'in print'! > I hope you have had a look at the DSG meetings photo album pictures > of us all in Bangkok last month ..... Yes, I'm glad to see you in print too! Why not share a few of your impressions from that same day of discussion and lunch in Bangkok??? We'd all be glad to hear. I should have mentioned in my other letter (I was just in the door and not even unpacked when I wrote it by way of excuses;-)), that Manu came down from Laos with exellent listening skills and the occasional question too. At lunch, Manu, you were asking about the kinds of dukkha and I forget what else. You may like to read more detailed posts on dukkha under that heading in U.P. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/Useful_Posts You mentioned that every week you translate Abhidhamma talks from Lao to English at a temple in Vientiane, Laos. Can you tell us more about these and the topics being discussed? What's the name of the bhikkhu who gives the talks? Finally, you're now off the hook photo-wise, but like James, I'd like to encourage any newcomers and other shy oldcomers to add a photo to the member album as an act of dana for us all here: http://photos.groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/lst Metta, Sarah ======= 30591 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Wed Feb 25, 2004 5:27am Subject: [dsg]_Re:_Recognizing_the_Dhamma_-_1._Dispassion_(§_1.4,_§_1.5.) Hi Ken O and all, Ken, thank you for your reply and providing sutta passages. We can further investigate these passages with the eight principles/criteria of recognizing the Dhamma, the Vinaya, the Teacher's instruction. So some questions for that endeavor are that: With respect to the eight principles/criteria, what do you think are the qualities present in these sutta passages such that one may definitely hold, 'This is the Dhamma, this is the Vinaya, this is the Teacher's instruction'? In particular, for that one may know in these sutta passages , by which criteria may one definitely hold thus? Metta, Victor PS. Thank you for your suggestion. I do have these books. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Kenneth Ong wrote: > Hi Victor > > There is no doubt that there are benefits of Vinaya. Vinaya is only > the start of the practise take, a look at Ganakamoggallana Sutta, > Vinaya is equates to morality, then after there are other gradual > training like sense control etc....(which are all part and parcel of > 8NP) Hence to me vinaya is a leading tool but not a total tool by > itself > > I think we must not forget that mental portion because Buddha > describe mental more powerful than physical actions. See Upali Sutta > MN 56 Let me quote you this sutta portion > > < bodily rod is the most reprehensible for the performance of evil > action, for the perpetration of evil action, and not so much of the > verbal rod and mental rod. > > What do you household? Is this town of Nalanda sucessful and > prosperous, is it populus and crowded with people? > > Yes Venerable sir, it is. > > What do you think, householder? Suppose a man came here brandishing > a sword and spoke thus:"In one moment, in one instant, I will make > all the living things in this town of Nalanda into one mass of flesh, > into one heap of flesh. What do you think householder would that man > be able to do that? > > Venerable Sir, ten, twenty, thirty, forty or even fifty men would not > be able to make all the living beings in this town into one mass of > flesh, into one heap of flesh in one moment or instant, so what does > a single trivial man count for? > > What do you think, householder? Suppose some recluse or brahim came > here possessed of supernormal power and attained to mastery of the > mind and he spoke thus: "I will reduce this town of Nalanda to ashes > with one mental act of hate." What do you think householder, would > such a recluse or brahim be able to do that? > > Venerable sir, such a recluse or brahim posessed of supernormal power > and attained to mastery of mind would able to reduce ten, twenty, > thirty, forty or even fifty Nalandas to ashes with one mental act of > hate, so what does a single trivial Nalanda count for."> The sutta > carries on ... > > When it is said keeping control of the faculties, it is not just > Vinaya. I think Vinaya only covers the way Monks look at people, I > do not know whether it includes hearing and smelling faculties. > Neverthesless, let take a look at this sutta MN 451, Kandaraka Sutta > > "On seeing a form with the eye, he does not grasp at its sign and > features. Since if he left the eye faculty unguarded, evil > unwholesome states of covetousness and grief might invade him, he > practise the way of its restraint, he guards the eye faculty, he > undertakes the restraint of the eye faculty.....hearing, smelling, > flavouring and congnizing of a mind object." > > So we can see these are all mostly mental portion and not physical. > > > Ken O > > P.S> I think it will be good if you get the MN and SN suttas > translated by Bodhi. There are more sutta for you to look and > investigate than those in accesstoinsight suttas. 30592 From: Sarah Date: Wed Feb 25, 2004 5:51am Subject: Re: [dsg] The mind of a person in a coma Dear Friend, Your questions are very interesting. Do you have a special reason for this interest? S:Just a few comments for a start from my very limited understanding in these areas. ...... H: > When a person is in deep sleep,his sense faculties are temporarily > in abeyance. .... S: Agreed. ..... H: >The mind goes into the first thought moment of present > life - bhavanga, which is the jeevitindriya-the life maintaining > consciousness. ..... S:I’d put it a little differently. There are continuous bhavanga cittas (life continuum consciousness) at these times. Jivitindriya cetasika (life faculty mental factor) accompanies these and all other cittas. ..... H:>Dreams in such a state may be the activation of > sanna cetasika (?) ...... S:Dreams occur during lighter sleep when there are series of mind-door cittas (consciousness) interrupting the bhavanga cittas. Sanna (perception/marking) is another universal cetasika like jivitindriya which arises with every citta, including the bhavangas and all sense door and mind door cittas. During dreaming, it ‘marks’ the concepts experienced through the mind. ..... H:> Besides deep sleep, there are two states in which similar > situations may exist (i) a person who has fainted and (ii) a person > in a coma. In these states how does the mind function, > maintaining the life continuum. ..... S:Life faculty (jivitindriya) continues to maintain the life of the flow of cittas and cetasikas it accompanies, whether they be bhavangas (life continuum) or mind door consciousness cittas. “It watches over these states (the accompanying dhammas) only in the moment of (their and its) existence, as water over lotuses etc. (Atthasalini, part 1V, ch 1). Jivita.m = life, indriya = controlling faculty. In a coma, as you suggest, it’s like a deep sleep with (I imagine) long periods of succeeding bhavangas. However, we know that there is also mind door and sense door activity in many cases, whether or not it can be percieved at all by other people. This is why there can be memories afterwards. Fainting, too, I think. When I was young, I used to faint a lot, but often there were waves of some kind of consciousness, even though those around would have no idea. So, it’s not the same as deep sleep (no sense door or mind door activity) or dreaming (only mind door activity). In these cases, there may be some sense door as well as mind door activity interspersing the deep sleep like condition. ..... H: Is there relevant reference in the > Abhidhamma or Suttas ? ..... S:I’d recommend Nina’s books, ‘Abhidhamma in Daily Life’ and ‘Cetasikas’ for a start to understand more about bhavanga cittas and these cetasikas. Also see ‘dreams’, ‘bhavanga’ in UP. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/Useful_Posts ..... H: > A person who comes out of a coma remembers their "experiences" in > that state. Some faculties at least may still function, like > hearing, smelling, feelings, and the thoughts, though the mind is > unable to stimulate the body to react. The biological processes > continue to function as the consciousness is present. ..... S:Exactly so. Lots of variation in this regard, I think. ..... H: >So it may be > a constant falling into and coming out of the bhavanga during the > period of the coma, with citta-cetasika arising and falling away > from time to time as the minds fluctuate between one state > (bhavanga) and the other(citta) .... S: Almost right, I think. Remember that bhavangas are cittas too and it’s not that anything falls into or out of. Just a series of cittas accompanied by cetasikas, but in this case, I expect there may usually be long periods of bhavanga cittas without interruption, depending on the case. ..... H:> Could you please explain with reference to relevant passages in > Dhamma, if any. I also invite other Dhamma friends to give their > points view. > > With metta > Hasituppada .... S: I can’t think of any references to comas, but in a way, it’s just like now with succeeding cittas accompanied by mental factors like jivitindriya and sanna which perform their tasks very briefly and then fall away. These again are conditioned dhammas, not under anyone’s will, arising and falling away all the time and quite unpredictable. In another thread, we're looking at the Visuddhimagga on bodily intimation. We can see in the case of someone coming out of a coma or faint, there may be the intention to make a gesture, but no supporting conditions for the intimation to take place. Conditions are very complicated. I’ll also be glad to hear other views or references. This is just a 'first stab' at your questions. Meanwhile, please enjoy the posts on DSG and may I encourage you to post directly in future - we’re a friendly crowd and I don't usually offer a forwarding service;-) Please introduce yourself a little too. Metta, Sarah ===== 30593 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Wed Feb 25, 2004 5:54am Subject: Re: [dsg]_Re:_Recognizing_the_Dhamma_-_1._Dispassion_(§_1.4,_§_1.5.) Victor & Ken O --- yu_zhonghao wrote: > Hi Ken O, > > Thank you for your detail answer. From passage § 1.5., what the > woman did in front of Ven. Anuruddha obviously leads to passion, > not dispassion. One thing I see as the Vinaya that leads to > dispassion, > as Ven. Anuruddha demonstrated, is 'keeping control of his > faculties, didn't as much as glance at her or say even a word.' I'm wondering if this the same Ven Anuruddha as the famous arahant (and cousin of the Buddha). If so, the control over the faculties would be explained by the fact that all tendency to akusala had been eradicated. Jon 30594 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Wed Feb 25, 2004 6:23am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: the self... how?/Jack James & Jack Another sutta reference to add to James' useful one below is this one from AN IV, 170 (trans NDB 83, Bh Bodhi). The speaker is Ven Ananda. Jon 'Ways to Arahantship' "Friends, whatever monks or nuns declare before me that they have attained the final knowledge of arahantship, all these do so in one of four ways. What four? "Here friends, a monk develops insight preceded by tranquillity.[65] While he thus develops insight preceded by tranquillity, the path arises in him. He now pursues, develops and cultivates that path, and while he is doing so the fetters are abandoned and the underlying tendencies eliminated.[66] "Or again, friends, a monk develops tranquillity preceded by insight.[67] While he thus develops … "Or again, friends, a monk develops tranquillity and insight joined in pairs. While he thus develops … "Or again, friends, a monk's mind is seized by agitation caused by higher states of mind. But there comes a time when his mind becomes internally steadied, composed, unified and concentrated; then the path arises in him. . He now pursues, develops and cultivates that path, and while he is doing so the fetters are abandoned and the underlying tendencies eliminated. Footnotes: 66. "The path" (magga) is the first supramundane path, that of stream-entry. … 67. AA [Commentary to AN]: "This refers to one who by his natural bent first attains to insight and then, based on insight produces concentration (samaadhi)." AT: "This is one who makes insight the vehicle (vipassanaa-yaanika)." --- buddhatrue wrote: > Hi Jack, ... > The `split' into vipassana meditation and jhana meditation is in > the suttas. See the Samadhi Sutta, which starts with: > > "Monks, these are the four developments of concentration. Which > four? > There is the development of concentration that, when developed & > pursued, leads to a pleasant abiding in the here & now. There is > the > development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads > to > the attainment of knowledge & vision. There is the development of > concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to mindfulness > & > alertness. There is the development of concentration that, when > developed & pursued, leads to the ending of the effluents." > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an04-041.html > > That isn't to say that Jhana doesn't contain mindfulness, of course > > it does or it would just be going into a trance, but I think there > are definite differences in the emphasis and role of both > concentration and mindfulness in the two different approaches to > meditation. > > Metta, James 30595 From: Kenneth Ong Date: Wed Feb 25, 2004 6:24am Subject: Re: [dsg]_Re:_Recognizing_the_Dhamma_-_1._Dispassion_(§_1.4,_§_1.5.) Hi Victor > > With respect to the eight principles/criteria, what do you think > are the qualities present in these sutta passages such that one may > definitely hold, 'This is the Dhamma, this is the Vinaya, this is > the Teacher's instruction'? In particular, for that one may know > in these sutta passages , by which criteria may one definitely hold > thus? k: It is not easy at times to say this is vinaya or this is Teacher instructions because Vinaya is also Teacher instruction. Nevertheless let deal specifically with 1.4 and 1.5. <<'What do you assume of any essence, here in this cemetery grower, filled with corpses, this body destined to break up? What do you see when you look at me, you who are out of your mind?'>> <> IMHO - These two part indicate the teacher instruction in dispassion with the body. The body is destined to die and decay. We can comtemplating cemetary, consider and reflecting that body is make up of the four elements or comtemplate as body parts. All these are found in satipatthana sutta. As for 1.5 - the significant instructions will be <> There are quite a number of sutta on keep control of faculties. Basically I think in order to keep control, one must be mindful of our mental objects and mind. Ken O 30596 From: Date: Wed Feb 25, 2004 1:43am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: the self... how?/Jack In a message dated 2/24/04 10:11:15 PM Central Standard Time, buddhatrue@y... writes: That isn't to say that Jhana doesn't contain mindfulness, of course it does or it would just be going into a trance, but I think there are definite differences in the emphasis and role of both concentration and mindfulness in the two different approaches to meditation. James, You might be right. Have you read the Thanissaro article to which I referred? I think there is a question about the translation of different words in the suttas that are translated as jhanas. Robert K. seems to agree that, at least in the instance he examined, the translation should be meditation not jhana. Try substituting the word "meditation" for "concentration" in your quote below, I think the Ananapanasati Sutta pulls together a lot of different meditational techniques (such as 4 Foundations of Mindfulness, concentration and vipassana) found in other suttas into one unified meditational teaching. Certain steps in that sutta emphase different aspects. Some gravitate toward jhana work. The last four are pure vipassana. But, they are all part of one mental development teaching. I'm not sure we are not saying the same thing but using slightly different words. jack "Monks, these are the four developments of concentration. Which four? There is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to a pleasant abiding in the here & now. There is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to the attainment of knowledge & vision. There is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to mindfulness & alertness. There is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to the ending of the effluents." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an04-041.html 30597 From: Philip Date: Wed Feb 25, 2004 6:58am Subject: [dsg] Re: Link to book on Paramis? --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: James: > I think what you describe here is quite reasonable. Actually though, > I would not separate you from others because really we are all > beginners. We begin again each minute/second/nano-second. Just as > one cannot really see the passing landscape from a speeding vehicle, > one cannot really see namas and rupas until there is a stopping, > looking, and considering. However, I believe you are going to find > that Nina does not agree with this outlook, even for the `beginner'. > She emphases that ANY effort to recognize namas and rupas, > any `stopping' of superfluous activities to do this, is a > reinforcement of the false belief in `self'. Think what you will > about this but I believe that such a view makes Buddhism absolutely > pointless. If nothing is done is purposefully done, nothing will > happen. Hello James, and all. P: It's interesting. At this point I cannot fathom how the realites laid out in the Abhidhamma that I am now barely managing to wrap my head around will come to be experienced directly, but I will study and practice in that direction. I will, however, be continuing my Brahma-Viharas work, which I think is important and interesting, and certianly very purposeful. We'll see what happens. Something tells me that there will be a gradual awakening from conceptual (samutti) truth to paramattha but I will be playing on both courts for a good while, I'm sure. > I am glad that you are enamored with the works of Nina because I > believe there is very valuable information to be found there. > However, I would also like to suggest that you read the works of > other writers whose perspectives on the Abhidhamma don't contain the > same `non-action' outlook as Nina posits. Here are some links for > you to consider: > > http://www.abhidhamma.org/dhamma_theory_philosophical_corn.htm > http://www.lankalibrary.com/Bud/time.htm P:Thank you. I will check them out. Sorry, I don't know how to upload photos as requested, but will figure it out one of these years! :) Everybody in the album looks so kind. Metta, Philip 30598 From: Date: Wed Feb 25, 2004 2:01am Subject: Testing In-Box Delivery Time (No Content) /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 30599 From: Philip Date: Wed Feb 25, 2004 7:15am Subject: [dsg] Re: Link to book on Paramis? Hello Christine, and all. Thank you for your explaining your signature line. Sloth and Torpor is one of my dominant Hindrances- well, heck, they're all dominant come to think of it - so it appeals to me. I like these lines from the Dhammapada (235): "You are now like a yellowed leaf. Already Yama's minions stand near: You stand at the door to departure But have yet to provide for the journey." In our case, I guess we want to unpack *before* departing in order to provide for the journey :) Oh, thanks again for the link on the defilements. It made things clearer for me. Metta, Philip --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Hello Philip, and all, > > I can well understand your friend's reactions. One of my first > comments on this list was about the use of words like 'defilements' - > I thought the language was too harsh, almost impolite. > Like your friends, I thought it seemed to show self-loathing - or low > self esteem. :-) Notice all the selves? > Slowly, I learn about anatta, and, much more slowly, understanding > incrementally grows. > > I was also asked about my signature quote on another list, and this > is the reply I gave there. > > I think one can never over emphasise the fragility of life, and there > is a need to point out that the Buddha taught the dangers of rebirth. > That very very few are reborn in human form, or in the dispensation > of a buddha when the teachings are available. The work needs to be > done Now. > > The quote I add after my signature "The trouble is that you think you > have time" is part of my daily reminder to myself about my ever > approaching death. Especially, to try to have a sense that it could > be at any moment. People assume that they'll live to the extreme of > old age for their nationality - usually they think it will be in > their 80's, 90's or older. We all know intellectually that we will > die one day - but we always push it into the future. When I have > contact with patients who have been told they have a terminal > illness, whether they are 20 years old or 92 years old they always > say things like - "I know I have to die one day, but I didn't think > it would be for ( insert number of years). Or they say, "I know I > have to die one day, but I need to do (insert task) first." My > signature quote is a short paraphrase of the message in suttas below - > I think I read it in a book by Jack Kornfield once. > > From 'The Archer' SN XX.6 > "Faster than the speed of that man, faster than the speed of the sun > & moon, faster than the speed of the devas who rush ahead of the sun > & moon, the force of one's life span comes to an end. Thus you should > train yourselves: 'We will live heedfully.' That's how you should > train yourselves." > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn20-006.html > > From 'The Simile of the Mountains' SN III.25 > "Like massive boulders, > mountains pressing against the sky, > moving in from all sides, > crushing the four directions, > so aging and death > come rolling over living beings: > noble warriors, priests, merchants, > workers, outcastes, & scavengers. > They spare nothing. > They trample everything. > >>snip<< > So a wise person, > seeing his own good, > steadfast, secures confidence > in the Buddha, Dhamma, & Sangha. > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn03-025.html > > > metta and peace, > Christine > ---The trouble is that you think you have time ---