30800 From: Sarah Date: Mon Mar 1, 2004 1:02am Subject: "To sleep, perchance to dream." Hi Howard & All, I agreed with all Ken O’s comments on this thread on dreaming. Visible object is only experienced in the eye-door process(except in the immediately subsequent mind door process only). This morning, my alarm went off early. Sound impinging on the ear-sense interrupted a rather unpleasant dream -- I’d lost my purse and was panicking around;-(. When my eyes opened and I started ‘coming to’, the dream stopped instantly, but then for a few moments, led by attachment, I closed my eyes again and even continued the dream a little, almost curious to see if I found my purse;-). A couple of seconds later, wide awake, sounds, visible objects, experiences through the body-sense and normal mind door activity. I liked Sukin’s suggestion about the mind-door activity uninterrupted by sense-door activity as being responsible for the ‘unreal’ dreams. I totally accept and agree that the sights and sounds seem real and seem like regular rupas. This is the nature of ‘phantoms, dreams’. We read in the texts that panna cannot develop while sleeping. Truly, there is no opportunity to guard the sense doors at these times. However, as soon as the alarm goes off, as soon as there is hearing or experiencing throught the body-sense, no matter how ‘fuzzy’ the experience, sati can arise and perform it’s guarding duty. As Nina said, also in the arupa plane, there’s no chance to become enlightened because rupas cannot be known without any experience of them through the sense doors. ..... Jon quoted from the Vism1: “He enters upon the way of its restraint’: [the meaning is] he enters upon the way of *closing that eye faculty by the door-panel of mindfulness*. It is the same one of whom it is said ‘he guards the eye faculty, undertakes the restraint of the eye faculty’.” A little later he also quoted Vism1, 57: “Herein..when a visible datum as object comes into the eye focus,....there is non-restraint if unvirtuousness or forgetfulness or unknowing or impatience or idleness arises at the moment of impulsion. When this happens, it is called non-restraint of the eye faculty.” ..... I really love the sutta Victor quoted about Subha the nun, an arahant, who plucked out her eye for the one who desired it: “For in the midst of praise & blame, pleasure and pain, my mindfulness stands firm’. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/khuddaka/therigatha/thig14.html For Subha, there were no more dreams or any kind of distorted perceptions (vipallasas). As it says in Vibh-a 2055 “But only trainers and ordinary men see these four kinds of dreams owing to non-abandonment of the perversions. Non-trainers do not see them owing to the abandonment of the perversions.” Meanwhile, in ignorance, our perception is distorted whenever there isn’t awareness during the javana process, including in our dreams. Subha reminded her admirer: “in what will the mind there make its home? This body of mine, which is just like that, when devoid of dhammas doesn't function. When, devoid of dhammas, it doesn't function, in what will the mind there make its home? Like a mural you've seen, painted on a wall, smeared with yellow orpiment, there your vision has been distorted, meaningless your human perception. Like an evaporated mirage, like a tree of gold in a dream, like a magic show in the midst of a crowd --” Howard, I’m also reminded of a documentary I saw recently about John Nash, the famous mathematician. There were a few brief inerviews with him. At the end, he was asked why he thought his schizophrenic voices and madness had suddenly seemed to disappear. He answered simply: ‘I stopped paying attention to them’. Before, he had given them great importance, thinking they might give him some essential messages. Wrong views can be very dangerous if followed to extremes. I’m not saying I think that simple misapprehension of dreams or simple curiosity about lucid dreaming is in this category. However, any understanding of namas and rupas and distinguishing them from concepts can help a lot in this mad world our delusions and illusions create. Metta, Sarah ====== 30801 From: christine_forsyth Date: Mon Mar 1, 2004 1:24am Subject: SN 6 Brahmasamyutta 1 (1) Brahmaa's Request - 3 Dear Group, Following on from Azita's post, where the Brahmaa Sahampati begged the Blessed One to teach the Dhamma for the sake of 'beings with little dust in their eyes who are falling away because they do not hear the Dhamma.' "Then the Blessed One, having understood Brahmaa's request, out of compassion for beings surveyed the world with the eye of a Buddha. [n. 370] As he did so, the Blessed One saw beings with little dust in their eyes and with much dust in their eyes, with keen faculties and with dull faculties, with good qualities and with bad qualities, easy to teach and difficult to teach, and a few who dwelt seeing blame and fear in the other world. [n.371] Just as in a pond of blue or red or white lotuses, some lotuses might be born in the water, grow up in the water, and thrive while submerged in the water, without rising up from the water; some lotuses might be born in the water, grow up in the water, and stand at an even level with the water; some lotuses might be born in the water and grow up in the water, but would rise up from the water and stand without being soiled by the water - so too, surveying the world with the eye of a Buddha, the Blessed One saw beings with little dust in their eyes and with much dust in their eyes, with keen faculties and with dull faculties, with good qualities and with bad qualities, easy to teach and hard to teach,and a few who dwelt seeing blame and fear in the other world. Having seen this, he answered Brahmaa Sahampati in verse: "Open to them are the doors to the Deathless: Let those who have ears release faith. Foreseeing trouble, O Brahmaa, I did not speak The refined, sublime Dhamma among human beings." Then Brahmaa Sahampati, thinking, "The Blessed One has given his consent [to my request] regarding the teaching of the Dhamma," paid homage to the Blessed One and disappeared right there." note 370 (part): Spk: The eye of a Buddha (buddhacakkhu) is a name for the knowledge of the degrees of maturity in the faculties of beings (indriyaparopariyatta~n~na) and the knowledge of the dispositions and underlying tendencies of beings (aasayaanusaya~n~na). note 371 (part): Paralokavajjabhayadassaavino. At MLDB, p. 261, the ambiguous compound is rendered "seeing fear in blame and in the other world." metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- 30802 From: christine_forsyth Date: Mon Mar 1, 2004 1:48am Subject: Re: CONGRATULATIONS !!! RECORD ACHIEVED :-) :-) Update *** Dear Group, Just to be absolutely accurate - the different time zones must have meant a few late posts were added to the total for February 04 - previously stated to be 1214. In actual fact the Home Page is showing: :-) :-):-) :-)ONE THOUSAND TWO HUNDRED AND FIFTY POSTS :-):-):-):-) metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- 30803 From: Sarah Date: Mon Mar 1, 2004 2:13am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: the self... how?/Jack Hi Jack & Howard, You’ve both raised this verse 372 from the Dhammapada. I really have no answers, just a few more comments: > sarahdhhk@y... writes: > > ‘There is no concentration in one who lacks wisdom, > (Natthi jhaanaâm apa~n~nassa) > Nor is there wisdom in him who lacks concentration. > (pa~n~naa natthi ajhaayato) > In whom are both concentratio and wisdom, > (Yamhi jhaana~n ca pa~n`naa ca) > He, indeed, is in the presence of Nibbana. > (sa ve nibbaanasantike) .... 1. In the Dhp commenery, verses 368- 376 are given together and I think should be read as ‘a whole’. 2. Just before reciting the verses, we read that the Buddha ‘scrutinized those monks [formerly thieves], chose a form of instruction suited to their dispositions...’ 3. In the previous verse, ‘meditate’(jhaya) refers to the development of samatha and vipassana. Earlier (verses 368-370) the references are to eradicating the fetters and realizing nibbana. The commentary notes to verse 371 given before by Robk indicates in this case the reference is to the 8 attainments (jhanas) and to ‘insight, wisdom, path and fruit’ with nibbana as object. 4. In the development of vipassana, the faculties are balanced, concentration and wisdom are balanced. When the path factors arise, the concentration (even for a sukkhavipassika) is equivalent to access or jhana level concentration. 5. In verse 372,’in the presence (santika) of Nibbana’, i.e reference is being made to the path and fruit consciousness as I understand. I think the reference above is either a) to indicate for these monks that having attained the highest jhanas and developed wisdom, nibbana is realized by them ‘in tandem’ or with jhana as basis or b) in general concentration and wisdom have to be balanced for the development of vipassana bhavana without implying jhana has to be developed first. If RobK or anyone with the Carter edition (I only have the Burlingame) with more detailed notes to verse 372, that would be helpful. Nina may also have more comments. This was the post I quoted before with details to the previous verse: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/11524 ... http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/modern/thanissaro/concmind.html which > is Tharissaro Bhikkhu commented on the same > thing.You may be interested in "A Critical Analysis of the Jhanas in > Theravada > Buddhist Meditation" by Henepola Gunaratana. It can be found at > http://www.buddhanet.net/ftp12.htm. .... I confess I’ve read Gunaratana’s work thoroughly and have it somewhere not to hand. It contains a lot of useful detail, though I think there were some conclusions that I found a bit misleading. I’ll look at the TB one later, I hope or you can post a shortish extract from either. I really know almost nothing about jhana. I agree with Howard that the Buddha 'never advised against meditating' if we are referring to samatha and vipassana bhavana here. What I questioned in my treadmill post to Victor (or thought I was questioning) was the link, the understanding involved for those of us today who specially sit and focus on a particular object. This is because, as I read the texts, wisdom (panna) is essential for both kinds of bhavana from the very outset. Without the right understanding of the particular object, there cannot be any development. Is there any room for agreement on the last paragraph? If not, that's fine too;-) Metta, Sarah ====== p.s > Sorry about the underlining but I can't get rid of it. .... I didn’t get the underlining....I just get all Howard’s squiggles (don’t worry about it, H);-) Also, Howard, eat congee and avoid orange juice, too much vitC and acidic forming foods for kidney stones!! ..... 30804 From: christine_forsyth Date: Mon Mar 1, 2004 2:18am Subject: Re: Recognizing_the_Dhamma_'Being Unfettered' § 2.3 Dear Group, Being Unfettered § 2.3. "And what are the effluents that are to be abandoned by seeing? There is the case where an uninstructed, run-of-the-mill person... does not discern what ideas are fit for attention, or what ideas are unfit for attention. This being so, he does not attend to ideas fit for attention, and attends [instead] to ideas unfit for attention. And what are the ideas unfit for attention that he attends to? Whatever ideas such that, when he attends to them, the unarisen effluent of sensuality arises, and the arisen effluent of sensuality increases; the unarisen effluent of becoming... the unarisen effluent of ignorance arises, and the arisen effluent of ignorance increases... This is how he attends inappropriately: 'Was I in the past? Was I not in the past? What was I in the past? How was I in the past? Having been what, what was I in the past? Shall I be in the future? Shall I not be in the future? What shall I be in the future? How shall I be in the future? Having been what, what shall I be in the future?' Or else he is inwardly perplexed about the immediate present: 'Am I? Am I not? What am I? How am I? Where has this being come from? Where is it bound?' "As he attends inappropriately in this way, one of six kinds of view arises in him: The view I have a self arises in him as true & established, or the view I have no self... or the view It is precisely by means of self that I perceive self... or the view It is precisely by means of self that I perceive not-self... or the view It is precisely by means of not-self that I perceive self arises in him as true & established, or else he has a view like this: This very self of mine -- the knower that is sensitive here & there to the ripening of good & bad actions -- is the self of mine that is constant, everlasting, eternal, not subject to change, and will endure as long as eternity. This is called a thicket of views, a wilderness of views, a contortion of views, a writhing of views, a fetter of views. Bound by a fetter of views, the uninstructed run-of- the-mill person is not freed from birth, aging, & death, from sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair. He is not freed, I tell you, from stress. "The well-instructed noble disciple... discerns what ideas are fit for attention, and what ideas are unfit for attention. This being so, he does not attend to ideas unfit for attention, and attends [instead] to ideas fit for attention... And what are the ideas fit for attention that he attends to? Whatever ideas such that, when he attends to them, the unarisen effluent of sensuality does not arise, and the arisen effluent of sensuality is abandoned; the unarisen effluent of becoming... the unarisen effluent of ignorance does not arise, and the arisen effluent of ignorance is abandoned... He attends appropriately, This is stress... This is the origination of stress... This is the cessation of stress... This is the way leading to the cessation of stress. As he attends appropriately in this way, three fetters are abandoned in him: identity-view, doubt, and grasping at precepts & practices. These are called the effluents that are to be abandoned by seeing. [MN 2] metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/study/recognizing.html#unfettered 30805 From: buddhatrue Date: Mon Mar 1, 2004 3:21am Subject: Re: [dsg] The powerful tendecy Hi Sarah, Sarah: (James, she'd tell you to call her whatever you liked;-)) James: Hehehe…I would probably call her whatever everyone else calls her. The reason I made that statement about not calling her `Ajahn' because, from my experience with Thai temples, only the highest and most learned of monks are called `Ajahn'. If I called any of the regular monks at my temple `Ajahn', other than the Abbot or the meditation teacher or a visiting monk of high stature, they would quickly correct me and tell me to give them the title of `Phra'. After a few mistakes of this sort I quickly learned who was an `Ajahn' and who was a `Phra'. Therefore, from my experience, it would be simply unthinkable to call a layperson `Ajahn'!!! Since Sujin is a part of the Thai culture and must surely know this distinction, I am surprised that she allows anyone to give her the title of `Ajahn'. But, hey, I'm not from that culture! I don't really care. I will call her `Ajahn' all day and all night if that is what is expected. ;-)) Metta, James Ps. BTW, why doesn't K. Sujin participate in this group? Honestly, I don't like to talk about people too much behind their back. She could actually answer my questions and concerns herself rather than having her `posse' field my comments! ;-)) 30806 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Mar 1, 2004 3:40am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: clearing up misunderstandings Hi James, op 28-02-2004 16:23 schreef buddhatrue op buddhatrue@y...: >> op 26-02-2004 22:01 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: > > James: I am sorry Nina if I have been causing you or anyone else > distress Nina: not so, you only harm yourself. J: So, what did the Buddha say about this subject? What is the Buddha's > dhamma? Did he say that householders cannot practice jhana? Did he > say that householders shouldnot practice jhana? No. Here is what he > said: N: Leaving out the sutta for the moment, this is only partly related to the main issue: is A. Sujin pandering? Pander: help and encourage a person in evil passions or designs. J: So, Nina, it seems to me that K. Sujin is mistaken when she teaches > householders that they cannot and shouldnot practice jhana. She is > pandering to what they want to hear, removing them from personal > responsibility, and setting up an atmosphere and belief leading to > failure. N: A. Sujin does not tell others: do not practise jhana or do practise jhana. She does not tell others: do this, don't do that. She speaks very little, except in the Thai sessions, when she explains about satipatthana in daily life. She mostly replies with a counter question to let people find out for themselves whether they have any understanding. She wants people to find out for themselves: do they know their own citta? This is the scenario you can expect when you visit her: James Mitchel: Can laypeople today practise jhana? A. Sujin: Is there any understanding at this moment? If the Buddha had not become enlightened we would not know realities, and these occur right now. He taught us about seeing, hearing, smelling, thinking. Is there no seeing at this moment, and is there any understanding of seeing? If there are no eyesense and no visible object there cannot be seeing, it is conditioned. The moment of seeing is very short, but afterwards akusala cittas or kusala cittas arise and these last longer. When these are akusala cittas they know visible object with attachment, aversion and ignorance. (N: see the many suttas about seeing and the defilements on account of visible object.) Do we realize at this moment whether there is kusala citta or akusala citta? We are in the darkness of ignorance, only panna can bring light. We may think, I am pradtising, so that I have panna. But what does panna know?> End of scenario. N: Jhana is developed so that one becomes free from attachment to sensepleasures, and therefore it is necessary to realize the very moment of attachment to sensepleasures. A. Sujin does not gain or lose anything by James' opinion. I also feel the same about James' opinion about my writing on Abhidhamma or any writing I do. He is free to think that I act contrary to the Dhamma. A. Sujin does not care what others think or whether people agree with her or not. She does quite the contrary from what you say. Your accusation is unwarranted. She is helping people to take personal responsibility, to realize their own cittas. The main thing she stresses: is there any understanding at this moment. Jhana can only be developed with understanding and mindfulness of the present moment: of citta now. Otherwise people will do this with attachment and delusion, and then there will not be any result, people will harm themselves. Read in Survey of Paramattha Dhammas (Rob K's web or Zolag) what she writes about Samatha. Above all understanding is stressed. When people accuse someone else who has great sila, then the wrong committed is more grave than in the case of someone with weak sila. I have known A. Sujin for thirtyeight years, and I never noticed a lie, a white lie or a half truth. This tells us something about her sila. Be careful, you may not know the person you accuse, you may not realize what you are doing, but you may harm yourself greatly. This is the main issue. As to suttas, here on this list you hear different interpretations, and that is fine. You quote a sutta. I can add that also Visakha in the Buddha's time, a housewife with many children and grandchildren, could attain jhana, and other householders. But now my opinion: read carefully. In your quote Sariputta said: > How well spoken > was that statement of the Blessed One. Whenever, Lord, a noble > disciple enters and dwells in the rapture of seclusion, on that > occasion these five things come to him: ...... N: The noble or ariyan disciple. Who is he? He is a person who has attained enlightenment. His understanding and mindfulness have become powers (balas). They can arise at any time in daily life, under any circumstances. They perfectly understand their own cittas, they know the difference between kusala citta and akusala citta at the present moment, no mistake. Thus, they could also develop jhana, and jhana is a high degree of kusala. Now at this time, how many enlightened people do we meet? Note, when I write about jhana, I will always add, . I realize that in past lives people may have accumulated those skills, but, right understanding is indispensable. Note what Bhante Samahita wrote: N:I think this is all I have to say. When you maintain your unwarranted accusation of A. Sujin pandering, and also as you often imply, her followers (this is a wrong term) pandering, I do not see anything constructive in continuing exchange of views with you. You will add, that personally you have nothing against them, or against me, but this does not change the matter. Nina. 30807 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Mar 1, 2004 3:40am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: clearing up misunderstandings, Mike. Hi Sukin and Christine, I join you in welcoming Mike back!!! op 01-03-2004 05:54 schreef Sukinderpal Singh Narula op sukinder@k...:> > Yes, yes! It was pleasant to see your name in the message index, > like a cool breeze on a hot day. Please do post more frequently, > though I know that you may not have much spare time. ;-) N: I was just thinking, I miss Mike, and there he was. In Thailand I had a great time, exchanging views with my friends about citta in daily life, under different circumstances. I felt very free and much at ease in doing this, also laughing and joking. I miss that now. But Mike is like one of those friends, I cannot quite explain why. Maybe former lives? I always feel that way when I have even a short correspondance with him. I miss his short Emails, Nina. 30808 From: Sarah Date: Mon Mar 1, 2004 3:56am Subject: Re: [dsg] The powerful tendecy Hi James, Just a brief note here- --- buddhatrue wrote: >The reason I made that statement about not calling her `Ajahn' > because, from my experience with Thai temples, only the highest and > most learned of monks are called `Ajahn'. .... I believe in Thailand that ‘Ajahn’ means ‘teacher’. When Jon taught in a uni, he and all his colleagues were called ‘Ajahn’ by each other and the students. One of his former colleagues comes to the dhamma discussions and still calls him ‘Ajahn Jonothan’;-). It’s very common. In Chinese we also have a word that is used for ‘teacher’. There’s one Chinese restaurant where we used to go and the staff would always welcome me with this title. When I have my Tai chi class, I use another term for the teacher translated as ‘master’. From the old days, most foreigners have addressed K. Sujin simply with ‘Khun’, which is used for almost everyone. However, the Thais have generally always used ‘Ajahn’ or ‘Tan Ajahn’ (even more respectful) and if I’m with them, I usually use this, not because K.Sujin minds at all, but some Thais would find ‘Khun’ too casual (a bit like you referring to me as Mrs A in front of the starkids;-)). ... > Ps. BTW, why doesn't K. Sujin participate in this group? .... It would be nice, but she never writes. In 30 years, I think I’ve received 2 or 3 cards, that’s all. That’s why we have to join her if we wish to hear her;-) Any books of hers are transcribed from talks. You could ask Sukin to ask her any question, but it’s not the same, I know. Also they’re experimenting with recording discussions on the internet. As you remind us well, there’s only any refuge in the Triple Gem. Still, I feel I can never repay her kindness and guidance to me over all these years. I hope you can join us one day (how about during Azita’s visit?). Everyone would be very glad to meet you, James. You’d fit in well. Metta, Sarah ====== 30809 From: rjkjp1 Date: Mon Mar 1, 2004 5:04am Subject: Re: Htoo's comments on ''Common Misconceptions of Jhana'' by Jeff Brooks --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Philip" wrote: > As one who has been spending a lot of time in the Useful Posts > these days, I can vouch for a high percentage of the posts being > Rob's. As a result, after Nina, Rob has become my principle teacher > these days. So I'll add a voice in the selfish-loss column and hope > he sticks around. -------------- Dear Philip, Sorry I'm leaving just at a time when you are getting keen. Isn't it the way life seems to work sometimes:) If you wonder what my thinking is about any aspect of Dhamma just ask Nina, we have the same mind about the Teaching. ----------- > I was wondering about the history of this group. I guess in the pre- > internet days, you corresponded through newsletters, and while there > were therefore fewer exchanges, there was also less discord. And more > time to reflect on what one read. ============== I am a newbie compared to sarah and Jon, I met them at Khun sujins house in 1991 and they had already known her for 15 years or so. I used to get to bangkok as often as possible to meet with Khun Sujin and would travel around with her and her sister and Khun Duang Duen. I would ask questions and let the Dhamma seep in. I could write a book about it. And when I was not in Thailand I would send long letters to Nina asking questions about Dhamma. I had all the Tipitaka in English and would ask about various suttas. Two weeks later I would get her reply in the mail and it was always the highlight of the week for me. So precise and considered. I still have all the letters, over 100. The longest one was 16 pages all handwritten. Neither of us have attractive lettering -(sorry Nina:)) but the content was like nectar to me. I would drive to the forest and walk and sit and contemplate what Nina had said. Or close to my house was a large cemetery , 300 acres, and I would find a nice spot there and try to understand the deep meaning of what Nina said about the 'present moment'. What was seeing and color. Many times we discussed the Samyutta Nikaya, salayatanasutta, 'Bhikkhus without directly knowing and fully understanding the eye....one is incapable of destroying suffering' .. Halcyon times Philip. ============= > P.S I wish I could hear one of your talks, Rob. But if I recall you > live in Kyushu - too far. But hopefully one day... > > ========= I come to Tokyo on business a couple of times a year so let's meet. I have a Japanese friend there who came to Thailand with me 6 years ago, he knows Nina and Khun Sujin and loves to hear about Dhamma. We can have a little discussion. Robertk 30810 From: nidive Date: Mon Mar 1, 2004 5:19am Subject: Re: 4)Sukkhavipassaka-Michael Hi RobertK, > (4) A Padaparama : is an individual who cannot attain the Paths and > the Fruits within this lifetime can attain release from worldly ills > in his next existence if he dies while practising samatha or > vipassana and attains rebirth either as a human being or a deva > within the present Buddha Sasana. ""endquote Ledi sayadaw. What happens if he/she didn't die while practising samatha or vipassana, or did not attain rebirth as a human or deva? Wait for the next Buddha? What are the chances? Regards, Swee Boon 30811 From: Michael Beisert Date: Mon Mar 1, 2004 5:38am Subject: Re: [dsg] SN 6 Brahmasamyutta 1 (1) Brahmaa's Request Hello KenO, I gather you agree that pleasure is a necessary condition for the continuation of a human life, devoid of pleasure a human being would wither away. And I don't see anyone else in disagreement with that. Now, as you say, sensual pleasure is a big no-no. If that is the case, and the pleasure derived from jhanas is OK, then why not pursue what is OK and abandon what is no-no? What are you waiting for, and for that matter, what is everybody else on this list waiting for? Metta Michael ----- Original Message ----- From: Ken O To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, February 29, 2004 9:16 PM Subject: Re: [dsg] SN 6 Brahmasamyutta 1 (1) Brahmaa's Request Hi Michael Depends on what kind of pleasure. Sensual pleasure is a big no-no. Equamnity or pleasure attined during different stags of Buddhism jhanas ;-) is ok but still have to be careful not to cling to it if one is still not an Arahant. Ken O 30812 From: Ken O Date: Mon Mar 1, 2004 5:52am Subject: Re: [dsg] SN 6 Brahmasamyutta 1 (1) Brahmaa's Request Hi Michael That is no need to mention my stand of sensual pleasure You are asking what am I waiting for, below is my reason Buddhist jhanas is something not obtain by just sitting on one corner and concentration on one object. If it is that easy, many Brahims at that time will have been enlighted. Its first condition is withdrawn from sensual pleasure. In order to withdraw from sensual pleasure one must have insight. Concentration will not bring insight because insight is only attain by seeing every senses with the three characteristics. furthermore, there is no such thing as making a purposed effort, we cannot attain a not-self with a perception that a self could perceive it - it is an unwise view. It is only through insight then meditations (certain conditions mentioned in Visud) to reach jhanas is beneficial. I dont discourage meditation but I encourage pple to know that is required for starting meditation before embarking this journey. Or else mediation is just relaxing the mind that all due to its calming effect. Ken O 30813 From: rjkjp1 Date: Mon Mar 1, 2004 6:12am Subject: Re: 4)Sukkhavipassaka-Michael --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "nidive" wrote: > Hi RobertK, > > > (4) A Padaparama : is an individual who cannot attain the Paths and > > the Fruits within this lifetime can attain release from worldly ills > > in his next existence if he dies while practising samatha or > > vipassana and attains rebirth either as a human being or a deva > > within the present Buddha Sasana. ""endquote Ledi sayadaw. > > > What happens if he/she didn't die while practising samatha or > vipassana, or did not attain rebirth as a human or deva? > > Wait for the next Buddha? What are the chances? ========== Dear Swee Boon, I think we should understand the sayadaws intent. He wants to encourage the listener to develop what is most helpful: samatha bhavana and vipassana bhavana. They can become habitual. We can learn to contemplate death (maranasati) in various ways and so we are always ready to die. And learning how to investigate what appears at the six doors, if it becomes a habit, a very powerful kamma and that will bring its result even in this life. The sallekha sutta I quoted earlier. I use the translation Larry likes: "But herein, Cunda, effacement should be practiced by you:[16] others will be harmful; we shall not be harmful here -- thus effacement can be done. (\ Others will kill living beings; we shall abstain from killing living beings here -- thus effacement can be done. Others win speak maliciously; we shall abstain from malicious speech here -- thus effacement can be done. \ Others will speak harshly; we shall abstain from harsh speech here -- thus effacement can be done. (\ Others will gossip; we shall abstain from gossip here -- thus effacement can be done. \ Others will have wrong views; we shall have right view here -- thus effacement can be done. (\ Others will have wrong concentration; we shall have right concentration here -- thus effacement can be done. (\ Others will have wrong knowledge; we shall have right knowledge here -- thus effacement can be done. \ Others will have wrong deliverance; we shall have right deliverance here -- thus effacement can be done. . Others will be doubting; we shall be free from doubt here -- thus effacement can be done. Others will be angry; we shall not be angry here -- thus effacement can be done. Others will be hostile; we shall not be hostile here -- thus effacement can be done. Others will have bad friends; we shall have noble friends here -- thus effacement can be done. Others will be faithless; we shall be faithful here -- thus effacement can be done. Others will misapprehend according to their individual views, hold on to them tenaciously and not easily discard them;[18] we shall not misapprehend according to individual views nor hold on to them tenaciously, but shall discard them with ease -- thus effacement can be done. """ These effacements (I listed only a few of them) can be done right where we are when the time arises. Now the Dhamma is declining as the Buddha said it must: but these are still glorious years. There is seeing, smelling, tasting, touching, thinking, feeling, changing all the time and they appear like a gift to the one who knows that they are anatta. Life is wide open for all types of kusala and so we strive happily, not wishing for a result, but living in the moment. We can't cross the river of defilements by directly opposing them, but we swim with energy and insight, gently angling across. Still halcyon days. RobertK 30814 From: Michael Beisert Date: Mon Mar 1, 2004 6:20am Subject: Re: [dsg] SN 6 Brahmasamyutta 1 (1) Brahmaa's Request Hello KenO, Yeah. I can see how difficult it is. Better not bother about it and stick with the pleasure of the senses. Metta Michael ----- Original Message ----- From: Ken O To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, March 01, 2004 8:52 AM Subject: Re: [dsg] SN 6 Brahmasamyutta 1 (1) Brahmaa's Request Hi Michael That is no need to mention my stand of sensual pleasure You are asking what am I waiting for, below is my reason Buddhist jhanas is something not obtain by just sitting on one corner and concentration on one object. If it is that easy, many Brahims at that time will have been enlighted. Its first condition is withdrawn from sensual pleasure. In order to withdraw from sensual pleasure one must have insight. Concentration will not bring insight because insight is only attain by seeing every senses with the three characteristics. furthermore, there is no such thing as making a purposed effort, we cannot attain a not-self with a perception that a self could perceive it - it is an unwise view. It is only through insight then meditations (certain conditions mentioned in Visud) to reach jhanas is beneficial. I dont discourage meditation but I encourage pple to know that is required for starting meditation before embarking this journey. Or else mediation is just relaxing the mind that all due to its calming effect. Ken O 30815 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Mar 1, 2004 6:36am Subject: Re: [dsg] The Benefits of Jhanas Swee Boon This is a good area to look into. As might be expected, the Visuddhi-Magga has something to say on the matter. Here is a list of the 5 benefits given at Ch XI, 120. They are described briefly there and then discussed and explained over the next 60 or so pages. They are-- [1] a blissful abiding here and now (for the Arahants with cankers destroyed) [2] proximate cause for insight [3] proximate cause for direct-knowledge [4] condition for birth in Brahma world [5] cessation (for noble ones) Thus, 2 benefits for the arahant, 3 for the trainer or ordinary person. If you don't have access to a copy of the Visuddhi-Magga I'd be happy to post some more detail from it. Jon --- nidive wrote: > Hi Group, > > Below I list some of the benefits of jhanas that I know of. > If there is anything to add, please do so. > > 1. As a means of acquiring Right Concentration. > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn45-008.html > > 2. To obtain a pleasant abiding in the here and now. > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an04-041.html > > 3. As the foundation for the acquiring of the 5 mundane abhinnas. > > 4. As the basis for the contemplation of insight leading to the > destruction of the effluents, the only supramundane abhinna. > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an09-036.html > > 5. To attain to the highest meditative state of the cessation of > perception & feeling, achievable only by arahats and anagamis > who are proficient in all the eight rupa and arupa jhanas. > This is also known as the eighth > emancipation/deliverance/release, > which was demonstrated by the Buddha just before his > parinibbana. > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/digha/dn16.html > > Regards, > Swee Boon > 30816 From: Philip Date: Mon Mar 1, 2004 7:06am Subject: Re: Htoo's comments on ''Common Misconceptions of Jhana'' by Jeff Brooks Hello Rob. Thank you for all your helpful posts. You are a very good and lucid teacher. I'll continue to learn from you in your absence, which I trust will be temporary. And please let me know if you're coming to Kanto. We live in Chigasaki - not so far from Kamakura. I'm sure you have accomodations available in Tokyo, but we have a fairly spacious place here, so please feel free to stay with us if not. A sincere gassho to you. With Metta, Philip P.S I thought I posted another message similar to this, but I must have slipped up. If it shows up, sorry for the duplication. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Philip" wrote: > > As one who has been spending a lot of time in the Useful Posts > > these days, I can vouch for a high percentage of the posts being > > Rob's. As a result, after Nina, Rob has become my principle > teacher > > these days. So I'll add a voice in the selfish-loss column and > hope > > he sticks around. > -------------- > Dear Philip, > Sorry I'm leaving just at a time when you are getting keen. Isn't it > the way life seems to work sometimes:) > If you wonder what my thinking is about any aspect of Dhamma just > ask Nina, we have the same mind about the Teaching. > ----------- > > I was wondering about the history of this group. I guess in the > pre- > > internet days, you corresponded through newsletters, and while > there > > were therefore fewer exchanges, there was also less discord. And > more > > time to reflect on what one read. > ============== > I am a newbie compared to sarah and Jon, I met them at Khun sujins > house in 1991 and they had already known her for 15 years or so. > I used to get to bangkok as often as possible to meet with Khun > Sujin and would travel around with her and her sister and Khun Duang > Duen. I would ask questions and let the Dhamma seep in. I could > write a book about it. > And when I was not in Thailand I would send long letters to Nina > asking questions about Dhamma. I had all the Tipitaka in English > and would ask about various suttas. Two weeks later I would get her > reply in the mail and it was always the highlight of the week for > me. So precise and considered. I still have all the letters, over > 100. The longest one was 16 pages all handwritten. Neither of us > have attractive lettering -(sorry Nina:)) but the content was like > nectar to me. I would drive to the forest and walk and sit and > contemplate what Nina had said. Or close to my house was a large > cemetery , 300 acres, and I would find a nice spot there and try to > understand the deep meaning of what Nina said about the 'present > moment'. What was seeing and color. Many times we discussed the > Samyutta Nikaya, salayatanasutta, 'Bhikkhus without directly > knowing and fully understanding the eye....one is incapable of > destroying suffering' .. > Halcyon times Philip. > > ============= > > > P.S I wish I could hear one of your talks, Rob. But if I recall > you > > live in Kyushu - too far. But hopefully one day... > > > > ========= > I come to Tokyo on business a couple of times a year so let's meet. > I have a Japanese friend there who came to Thailand with me 6 years > ago, he knows Nina and Khun Sujin and loves to hear about Dhamma. We > can have a little discussion. > Robertk 30817 From: buddhatrue Date: Mon Mar 1, 2004 7:39am Subject: Re: clearing up misunderstandings Hi Nina, The definition you have of ‘pandering’ is not a very good definition. It leaves out a lot of the nuances of the word. A better definition is: “To cater to the lower tastes and desires of others.” It doesn’t really mean “help and encourage a person in evil passions or designs.” There is a pretty big gap between those two definitions. I meant pandering as in ‘telling people what they want to hear’ not ‘encouraging people to do evil things.’ I hope that this will clear up the issue for you. You know, I really shouldn’t continue to talk about A. Sujin when she isn’t here to speak for herself. It is becoming a case of ‘he said, she said’. I only bring her up because you bring her up so often, but let us stop. I think it bothers you. Let us deal solely with this issue of jhana. Let’s stick to the dhamma. That is why I am in this group. Is jhana as difficult as you claim it is? Is it impossible for only but certain householders? Well, according to the sutta I gave you it is not. Here we have the Buddha addressing 500 householders of various backgrounds and accumulations. He tells them all, not singling out any group of them, that they all shouldn’t be happy with just giving alms, they should also try to attain the beginning states of jhana from time to time. Sariputta responds to this teaching that it is a great idea and describes the wonderful benefits it gives the monks who do it. The Buddha hears this description from Sariputta and repeats it again for all of the householders so that they will know why it is a good thing to be doing. It seems pretty cut and dry to me. No special accumulations, prior knowledge, or anything really is needed other than the time to do it, knowing why it is important to do it, and to do it. And, in this case, noble disciple cannot mean one who is an arahant. It simply wouldn’t make any sense for the Buddha to be encouraging 500 different householders to do something that only arahants are capable of doing? Would it? You write that ‘ariyan disciples’ are also enlightened. It seems to me that ‘ariyan’ is close to ‘arahant’ and therefore means enlightened monks, while ‘noble’ doesn’t necessarily mean that. Unfortunately, we are getting to a level of Buddhist scholarship here that I am really not interested in; I just use my common sense. Again, it wouldn’t make sense for the Buddha to tell householders to do something that only the enlightened could do. I know that you are not going to agree with me, no matter what, so let’s just drop it. I have nothing further to say about this issue. Take care. Metta, James 30818 From: nidive Date: Mon Mar 1, 2004 7:39am Subject: Kalaka Sutta Hi Group, I would like commentaries on this sutta. Can someone provide it, please? http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an04-024.html "When cognizing what is to be cognized, he doesn't construe an [object as] cognized. He doesn't construe an uncognized. He doesn't construe an [object] to-be-cognized. He doesn't construe a cognizer. Thus, monks, the Tathagata -- being the same with regard to all phenomena that can be seen, heard, sensed, & cognized -- is 'Such.' And I tell you: There's no other 'Such' higher or more sublime. "Whatever is seen or heard or sensed and fastened onto as true by others, One who is Such -- among the self-fettered -- wouldn't further claim to be true or even false. "Having seen well in advance that arrow where generations are fastened & hung -- 'I know, I see, that's just how it is!' -- there's nothing of the Tathagata fastened." Regards, Swee Boon 30819 From: Date: Mon Mar 1, 2004 2:45am Subject: Re: [dsg] 2)Sukkhavipassaka-Michael Hi, Robert (and Michael) - In a message dated 3/1/04 2:25:28 AM Eastern Standard Time, rjkjp1@y... writes: > > >>RobertK: > >> > >>Now the only path > >> > >>available is that of 'insight alone' - the sukkhvipassaka (see > >> > >>nettipakarana). The samma-samdhi that comes with this path is > not > >at > >> > >>all the same as the samma-samdhi associated with the mundane > >jhanas. > >> > >>Michael: > >> > >>I gather that jhanas has been discussed at length in the list in > >the past, but for newcomers like me, would you care to explain > what > >you mean with the samma samadhi of a dry insight practitioner and > >the samma samadhi of mundane jhanas. . Could you also expand on > what > >the netti says? It is the first time I hear this. > > > ==================================================================== > Dear Michael, > This is a repeat of an old post I made about the way of vipassana > and the way of samatha. > =============================== Thank you for repeating this worthwhile old post. It occurs to me that there is a matter that might relate to the content of it, somewhat obliquely, of course. There may well be two sorts of (truly absorptive) jhanas, one being the sort predating the Buddha, in which most investigative faculties are dulled to the point of nonexistence, and a second in which investigation of dhammas is yet possible. In the Anupada Sutta, detailing Sariputta's use of jhanas (all of them) in attaining final release, it is said that in every one of the basic eight jhanas except the last, in addition to the conditions that characterize the jhana, there are also available all of the following: > ... contact, feelings, perceptions, intentions, interest, resolution, > effort, equanimity and attention Tangentially related to this is the claim made by Ven Sheng-Yen, the Ch'an master, that the "absorptive states of Mahayana", in contradistinction from those of "hinayana", are such that "normal" abilities are available to the practitioner while in them. Now, despite the pro-Mahayana propaganda involved in this, there may be something significant that is genuinely being pointed to here. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 30820 From: Date: Mon Mar 1, 2004 2:52am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: the self... how?/Jack Hi, Sarah - In a message dated 3/1/04 5:15:00 AM Eastern Standard Time, sarahdhhk@y... writes: > Also, Howard, eat congee and avoid orange juice, too > much vitC and acidic forming foods for kidney stones!! > ======================= Thanks for the tip. My stones, however, are calcium oxylate stones, not uric acid stones. Also, no orange juice for me - I'm staying away from carbs! ;-)) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 30821 From: icarofranca Date: Mon Mar 1, 2004 8:15am Subject: [dsg] Re: the self... how?/Jack Dear Howard I'm staying away from > carbs! ;-)) --------------------------------------------------------------------- Me too :-))))))))))))))))) (But it's for a good and noble cause!) Mettaya, Ícaro 30822 From: icarofranca Date: Mon Mar 1, 2004 8:39am Subject: Re: "To sleep, perchance to dream." Dear Sarah: It is an interesting and unique experience - the sudden awakening due to sati: something like the constricted Prajna-Paramita state of Mindfullness, as seen at Mahayana Prajna-Paramita Hrdaya Sutra ( sorry,but I don't know enough theravada suttas to quote something more near to our actual context...) "as soon as there is hearing or experiencing throught > the body-sense, no matter how `fuzzy' the experience, sati can arise and > perform it's guarding duty. As Nina said, also in the arupa plane, there's > no chance to become enlightened because rupas cannot be known without any > experience of them through the sense doors." ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Jon quoted from the Vism1: > > "He enters upon the way of its restraint': [the meaning is] he enters upon > the way of *closing that eye faculty by the door-panel of mindfulness*. > It is the same one of whom it is said `he guards the eye faculty, > undertakes the restraint of the eye faculty'." --------------------------------------------------------------------- This is the more obscure quote out of Vism I ever read. I oughted to lay down over the text, reading and reading it attentively 'till it begins to make sense for me... it's something like Citta were a concrete and continuous being or mind-flux states, in which there is no possible holes and vacuum: the raise of unvirtuousness, forgetfullness, etc, at the very moment of impulsion takes aside the eye-faculty restraint and simultaneously, like the old photo- revelation by chemical means, makes surge the non-restraint of eye- faculty as the silver nitrate compound on paper! Very interesting! --------------------------------------------------------------------- > "Herein..when a visible datum as object comes into the eye focus,....there > is non-restraint if unvirtuousness or forgetfulness or unknowing or > impatience or idleness arises at the moment of impulsion. When this > happens, it is called non-restraint of the eye faculty." > ..... -------------------------------------------------------------------- Sweet dreams are made of this... Mettaya, Ícaro 30823 From: Date: Mon Mar 1, 2004 10:17am Subject: New file uploaded to dhammastudygroup Hello, This email message is a notification to let you know that a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the dhammastudygroup group. File : /zPATTHANA2.doc Uploaded by : htootintnaing Description : Paramattha Dhamma for Patthana by Htoo You can access this file at the URL http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/zPATTHANA2.doc To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit http://help.yahoo.com/help/us/groups/files Regards, htootintnaing 30824 From: Date: Mon Mar 1, 2004 10:19am Subject: New file uploaded to dhammastudygroup Hello, This email message is a notification to let you know that a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the dhammastudygroup group. File : /zPATTHANA3.doc Uploaded by : htootintnaing Description : Citta to understand Patthana by Htoo You can access this file at the URL http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/zPATTHANA3.doc To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit http://help.yahoo.com/help/us/groups/files Regards, htootintnaing 30825 From: Date: Mon Mar 1, 2004 10:20am Subject: New file uploaded to dhammastudygroup Hello, This email message is a notification to let you know that a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the dhammastudygroup group. File : /zPATTHANA4.doc Uploaded by : htootintnaing Description : More on Citta to understand Patthana You can access this file at the URL http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/zPATTHANA4.doc To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit http://help.yahoo.com/help/us/groups/files Regards, htootintnaing 30826 From: icarofranca Date: Mon Mar 1, 2004 10:35am Subject: Re: New file uploaded to dhammastudygroup dear Htoo: A very clever text! You produced a very good definition of Rupa and Nama, Citta and Cetasika. Thinking about Quantum Mechanics, we get for an eletron his wave function, that describes all affairs of this particle...and we take it as the eletron itself. So, before any experience, any measurement, The eletron IS his wave function,that is his Rupa... But when we take measures, observations, etc, we interfere down with this wave function. This eletron's "Rupa" colapses and this particle assumes his corpuscular appearence... as a matter fo fact, a certain probability density is assigned to this measured event and Presto! a definite Nama arises for a definite Rupa, Citta and cetasika begin their interplay. Mettaya, Ícaro 30827 From: htootintnaing Date: Mon Mar 1, 2004 10:45am Subject: Re: New file uploaded to dhammastudygroup Dear M.Icaro, Thanks for your kind comment.I am doing my best. If there is anything wrong or confusing or not very clear, we can discuss on this forum so that the matter becomes clear. Thanks again for your kind support. With Metta, Htoo Naing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "icarofranca" wrote: > dear Htoo: > > A very clever text! > You produced a very good definition of Rupa and Nama, Citta and > Cetasika. Thinking about Quantum Mechanics, 30828 From: htootintnaing Date: Mon Mar 1, 2004 10:54am Subject: Re: Htoo's comments on ''Common Misconceptions of Jhana'' by Jeff Brooks Dear Christine, Thanks for your kind message on the matter. I have to allot time so I do not have time to debate. Thanks for everything that you share me as always. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Dear Htoo, > > I understand your dismay at seeing widely dispersed messages (Dhamma > Spam?) Any discussion merely keeps them in the > public eye for longer. So, perhaps, post your reply but do not > continue to debate? > > Enjoying, as always, any posts you care to make. > > metta and peace, > Christine > ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- 30829 From: htootintnaing Date: Mon Mar 1, 2004 11:26am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sensing own mind whenever it moves ( 02 ) >Htoo: Paramattha is through pannatta. Anatta is through Atta. .... S: ??? Please explain. .... ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: When you start to understand paramattha dhamma that understanding run on words of pannatta. We are using pannatta. First we use 'Sadda Pannatta' or its equivalent but this again is understood through 'Attha Pannatta '. So paramattha is through pannatta. So does Anatta even though it is origionally Anatta when we are born we were introduced with Atta. ' Hey smile, this is your Mom, this is your Dad. ' Then Atta encroached and firmly ramified since then. With wisdom the origional Anatta has been back. So I said Anatta is through Atta. But actually there is no Atta. All are Anatta. I hope you got it. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- S: Fully agreed (but as others would say, you need to know where you live when you book your ticket to Bkk;-)) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: I have said above. Atta is released only at the first gate Sotapatti Magga Citta. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- S: The understanding of anatta has to begin with theoretical right understanding of anatta and the tools and map have to be laid out accordingly. If they ar laid out with an idea of atta, along the route more understanding of atta rather than anatta will be developed. No point in taking the journey in this case as I see it. .... ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: So you want theoretical knowledge of Anatta and you want to throw away Atta. OK, I agree as there is no Atta, then it is not a problem. Let's bring Anatta view before we begin the journey. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: Are you showing up that you have arrived at the milestone called Bhanga Nana. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- S: LOL, as you remind us, no Htoo or Sarah to arrive anywhere;-) Again,we'd better be sure we start with the right tools and the right map. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Are you ready with all equipment? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- S: ???? I've read every message on DSG and to my knowledge you're the first to suggest this;-) Perhaps you mixed me up with someone else??? Recently, the only threads with any mention of Mahayana teachings have been ones that were comparing the use of terms such as sabhava and paramattha which can be difficult for those familiar with Nagarjuna or Mahayana to appreciate. It would be unkind of me to ask you to look for a post where I switched sides because I know you won't find one (but you're welcome to try;-)). We're relaxed about occasional lines and references to other schools but not with big slabs of quoted material from them. You can contact us off-list anytime you think we've gone too soft;-). ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: It is not a problem if it is not. But when I have time and find the message, I will reply that post to you. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > There is no country and there is no continent but just vanna, sadda, gandha, rasa, pathavi, tejo, vayo, apo etc etc. > .... S: Excellent! > .... > When is your next DSG > > meeting? How long will it be? How many will be attending? What are > > the activities at the meeting? How much is a day stay at hotels there > > where the meeting will be? I will be looking forward to hearing from > > you, Sarah. .... S: I could also answer with paramattha dhammas as you do to my personal ones;-) Every Saturday there is an English discussion with A.Sujin, Sukin and other friends (small group). Azita will be there in the middle of April just after Easter (dates?). I don't know if she will persuade others to join. We weren't planning to go away, but we could be persuaded to go (if you or others wished to join)for the first of her two weekends as I noticed I have an Easter holiday then. It's just informal discussion like here, but face to face. Everyone makes their own accomodation arrangements according to budget and so on. Best to be close to the Foundation. Please contact Sukin, Betty or me off- list for any other details. Everyone would be delighted to have you join and you'd be taken good care of. Ken O lives quite close, so I know he'd consider joining again. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: May be at some time. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > May you really see Anatta. .... S:Thanks. Remember, no 'Sarah' or 'Htoo' to see;-) Metta, Sarah ===== With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing > > 30830 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Mar 1, 2004 11:37am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Rob K leaving? Dear Robert k, What, are you leaving dsg? I thought you would stay on, I am really sad about that. But I know you will have a busy time just now! I hope you come back soon. I did not know I had written about 100 letters? Nice story you went to the cemetery or woods, I did not know. Can you not find some way to stay on, maybe skipping some mails so that the amount of reading is reduced? Nina. op 01-03-2004 14:04 schreef rjkjp1 op rjkjp1@y...: > Sorry I'm leaving just at a time when you are getting keen. Isn't it > the way life seems to work sometimes:) 30831 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Mar 1, 2004 11:37am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: clearing up misunderstandings Hi James, This definition is better, but still not a very good thing. You as English teacher would know the correct meaning. Visit her yourself and you can see whether she caters to the lower tastes of others, that is all. This subject did not annoy *me*, I was only thinking of the danger of wrong speech. I do not feel bad, James. I am not annoyed with you at all. We just disagree. One more thing, It *seemed* to me you implied time and again that the Abhidhamma is against the Buddha's teaching, and that the work I do in writing about the abhidhamma is acting against the Buddha's teaching. It seems that whever you have a chance you say something along these lines. Again, I don't mind this, but like to know. What exactly in my ADL book put you off? What exactly in the Abhidhamma you find contrary to the Buddha's teachings? What exactly in Buddhaghosa you find contrary to the Buddha's teachings? I do not mind, of course there are different opinions on this list. But instead of general statements I like concrete examples. I cannot promise to answer soon points related to the above you may bring up, I have to work hard these days on other things. See below. op 01-03-2004 16:39 schreef buddhatrue op buddhatrue@y...: > > The definition you have of ?pandering? is not a very good > definition. It leaves out a lot of the nuances of the word. A > better definition is: ?To cater to the lower tastes and desires of > others.? It doesn?t really mean ?help and encourage a person in evil > passions or designs.? There is a pretty big gap between those two > definitions. I meant pandering as in ?telling people what they want > to hear? not ?encouraging people to do evil things.? I hope that > this will clear up the issue for you. > J: Is jhana as difficult as you claim it is? (snip)The Buddha hears this description from Sariputta > and repeats it again for all of the householders so that they will > know why it is a good thing to be doing. It seems pretty cut and dry > to me. No special accumulations, prior knowledge, or anything really > is needed other than the time to do it, knowing why it is important > to do it, and to do it. > And, in this case, noble disciple cannot mean one who is an arahant. > It simply wouldn?t make any sense for the Buddha to be encouraging > 500 different householders to do something that only arahants are > capable of doing? N: Noble disciple: it can be a sotapanna, and there were very many in the Buddha's time, also householders. Arahat is only the fourth stage of enlightenment. Ariyan disciple: who has listened a lot, and also applied what he heard. It begins with drawing near and listening. I do not agree that you say: just do it. right understanding is necessary, as I tried to explain. The Buddha's time was different, people could hear the dhamma directly from the Buddha. They had no misunderstandings. But, OK I leave it. Nina. 30832 From: Philip Date: Mon Mar 1, 2004 5:43am Subject: Re: Htoo's comments on ''Common Misconceptions of Jhana'' by Jeff Brooks --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: Hello Rob > Sorry I'm leaving just at a time when you are getting keen. Isn't it > the way life seems to work sometimes:) > If you wonder what my thinking is about any aspect of Dhamma just ask Nina, we have the same mind about the Teaching. I will indeed be turning to Nina, and everyone else in the group. But with the wealth in the Useful Posts, I'll continue learning from you for months and more likely years to come. I enjoyed reading about those "Halycon days." >> I come to Tokyo on business a couple of times a year so let's meet. I am quite confident that you don't make the kind of empty offers many people do, as in "asobi ni kite kudasai" when they don't really mean it. So I am already looking forward to meeting you. I'm sure you've been to Kamakura, but if not, and if they interest you, let's do the temples and go for karaoke. OK, forget the karaoke. And the temples. That park in front of my station is a nice place to sit and chat. Please contact me offline if you're heading this way. I hope things will work out in a way that you stay with us. Metta, Philip 30833 From: icarofranca Date: Mon Mar 1, 2004 1:01pm Subject: Re: New file uploaded to dhammastudygroup Dear Htoo: I never read entirely Nina`s books on Abhidhamma reflexions on daily life, but your remarks about the many Citta planes, and their examples on everyday affairs are direct and understandable: Such Pathanna classifications was one of my first readings on Abhidhamma, at scattered notes I've picked up on many FTP personal files on NET. Your interpretation of such abstract ideas in all the crude reality - from Lokuttara Cittas to the low realms of crime and social atriction, is really paramount and I believe very near to the original purpose of such imbricated classifications! Keep Boostin' ! Mettaya, Ícaro --------------------------------------------------------------------- > File : /zPATTHANA3.doc > Uploaded by : htootintnaing > Description : Citta to understand Patthana by Htoo > > You can access this file at the URL > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/zPATTHANA3.doc > > To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit > > http://help.yahoo.com/help/us/groups/files > > Regards, > > htootintnaing 30834 From: christine_forsyth Date: Mon Mar 1, 2004 1:30pm Subject: Re: Recognizing_the_Dhamma_'Being Unfettered' § 2.3 Dear Group, Regarding Being Unfettered, this excerpt may also be of interest: "Stages of eradication of the Ten Fetters: "The Four Stages of Sotapanna, Sakadagami, Anagami and Arahat Before entering the path a person is referred to as a worldling. The pilgrim on the path is referred to as an ariya or noble one. There are four stages on the path followed by an ariya becoming an arahat and realizing Nibbana. In these stages the Ten Fetters or Characteristics are eradicated. The first stage is the sotapanna (stream winner). The stream represents the Noble Eightfold Path, and now the ariya is firmly established on the path. At this stage he overcomes three fetters, namely, 1) a view of a permanent self, 2) doubts about the Buddha, Dhamma and the Sangha, and 3) adherence to rites and ceremonies. Now he will be reborn seven times at the most. The second stage is that of the sakadagami (once returner) to the human world. He develops 4) detachment from sense desires and 5) freedom from ill will. Should he not attain arahatship in this birth he will be born only once more in the human world. The third stage is that of anagami (never returner). Now he completely irradicates the first five fetters and progresses to overcome the next five fetters. These are: 6) attachment to form realms, 7) attachment to formless realms, 8) pride, 9) restlessness and 10) ignorance. It is understood that the anagami, on passing away, is reborn in the heavenly (pure) abodes (suddhavasa). At the fourth stage, of arahat, all these fetters or characteristics are completely transcended and eliminated. In the first three stages the ariya is referred to as a sekha because he has to undergo more training. An arahat is called an a asekha, as he does not have to undergo further training. The arahat has now attained Enlightenment and Nibbana. He is not wholly free from dissatisfaction or suffering because the kammic forces, which produced his birth, are not fully spent. He will not, however, accumulate any new kamma and will not be reborn. Until he passes away he lives in a peaceful and happy state, teaching others by example and Dhamma talks." http://www.thebuddhistsociety.org.uk/Arahats.htm metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/study/recognizing.html#unfettered 30835 From: Michael Beisert Date: Mon Mar 1, 2004 2:17pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Recognizing_the_Dhamma_'Being Unfettered' § 2.3 Hello Christine and all, Christine: The first stage is the sotapanna (stream winner). The stream represents the Noble Eightfold Path, and now the ariya is firmly established on the path. At this stage he overcomes three fetters, namely, 1) a view of a permanent self, 2) doubts about the Buddha, Dhamma and the Sangha, and 3) adherence to rites and ceremonies. Now he will be reborn seven times at the most. Michael Always good to remember the stages of enlightenment. In my mind anyone who takes the Buddhist path seriously should aim at least to the level of sotapanna in this very life. That is the only guarantee of continuing following the path in future lives and not falling back into lower planes of rebirth. Looking at the three fetters that have to be eradicated to reach sotapanna I was always puzzled by the adherence to rites and rituals. I suspect very few people would think that they have any kind of belief in the efficacy of rites and rituals, this sounds like some sort of ancient custom which does not apply today, and therefore the eradication of this fetter could be taken as a done deal. But is that really so? Can anyone see in our modern beliefs some sort of adherence that would fall into this category as intended by the Buddha? I have some ideas about that but let's see if others have something to say. Metta Michael ----- Original Message ----- From: christine_forsyth To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, March 01, 2004 4:30 PM Subject: [dsg] Re: Recognizing_the_Dhamma_'Being Unfettered' § 2.3 Dear Group, Regarding Being Unfettered, this excerpt may also be of interest: "Stages of eradication of the Ten Fetters: "The Four Stages of Sotapanna, Sakadagami, Anagami and Arahat Before entering the path a person is referred to as a worldling. The pilgrim on the path is referred to as an ariya or noble one. There are four stages on the path followed by an ariya becoming an arahat and realizing Nibbana. In these stages the Ten Fetters or Characteristics are eradicated. The first stage is the sotapanna (stream winner). The stream represents the Noble Eightfold Path, and now the ariya is firmly established on the path. At this stage he overcomes three fetters, namely, 1) a view of a permanent self, 2) doubts about the Buddha, Dhamma and the Sangha, and 3) adherence to rites and ceremonies. Now he will be reborn seven times at the most. The second stage is that of the sakadagami (once returner) to the human world. He develops 4) detachment from sense desires and 5) freedom from ill will. Should he not attain arahatship in this birth he will be born only once more in the human world. The third stage is that of anagami (never returner). Now he completely irradicates the first five fetters and progresses to overcome the next five fetters. These are: 6) attachment to form realms, 7) attachment to formless realms, 8) pride, 9) restlessness and 10) ignorance. It is understood that the anagami, on passing away, is reborn in the heavenly (pure) abodes (suddhavasa). At the fourth stage, of arahat, all these fetters or characteristics are completely transcended and eliminated. In the first three stages the ariya is referred to as a sekha because he has to undergo more training. An arahat is called an a asekha, as he does not have to undergo further training. The arahat has now attained Enlightenment and Nibbana. He is not wholly free from dissatisfaction or suffering because the kammic forces, which produced his birth, are not fully spent. He will not, however, accumulate any new kamma and will not be reborn. Until he passes away he lives in a peaceful and happy state, teaching others by example and Dhamma talks." http://www.thebuddhistsociety.org.uk/Arahats.htm metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/study/recognizing.html#unfettered 30836 From: Philip Date: Mon Mar 1, 2004 2:50pm Subject: Re: Htoo's comments on ''Common Misconceptions of Jhana'' by Jeff Brooks Hello all. As I suspected, the greeting I had sent to Rob did finally show up. Sorry for the redunndacy. I resisted commenting on the "Common Misconceptions" post when I first saw it, and should resist now. Can I. No, I guess not. Oh, I guess I am learning something. I wrote some comments, and then erased them. I would just say that I wish people would not send spam about things that they believe are deeply important. But we know that making wishes about others' behaviour is absurd. Metta, Philip --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Philip" wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > > Hello Rob > > > Sorry I'm leaving just at a time when you are getting keen. Isn't > it > > the way life seems to work sometimes:) > > If you wonder what my thinking is about any aspect of Dhamma just > ask Nina, we have the same mind about the Teaching. > > I will indeed be turning to Nina, and everyone else in the group. > But with the wealth in the Useful Posts, I'll continue learning from > you for months and more likely years to come. > > I enjoyed reading about those "Halycon days." > > >> I come to Tokyo on business a couple of times a year so let's > meet. > > I am quite confident that you don't make the kind of empty offers > many people do, as in "asobi ni kite kudasai" when they don't really > mean it. So I am already looking forward to meeting you. I'm sure > you've been to Kamakura, but if not, and if they interest you, let's > do the temples and go for karaoke. OK, forget the karaoke. And the > temples. > That park in front of my station is a nice place to sit and chat. > Please contact me offline if you're heading this way. > > I hope things will work out in a way that you stay with us. > > Metta, > Philip 30837 From: icarofranca Date: Mon Mar 1, 2004 3:33pm Subject: Re: New file uploaded to dhammastudygroup Typo from Lokuttara Cittas to the low realms of crime and social > atriction, --------------------------------------------------------------------- "...of crime and social friction" (well... wrong deeds don´t pay bills) Mettaya, Ícaro 30838 From: Date: Mon Mar 1, 2004 3:53pm Subject: Re: [dsg] The Benefits of Jhanas Hi, Jon (and Swee Boon) - In a message dated 3/1/2004 9:36:21 AM Eastern Standard Time, jonoabb@y... writes: > As might be expected, the > Visuddhi-Magga has something to say on the matter. Here is a list of > the 5 benefits given at Ch XI, 120. They are described briefly there > and then discussed and explained over the next 60 or so pages. They > are-- > > [1] a blissful abiding here and now (for the Arahants with > cankers > destroyed) > [2] proximate cause for insight > [3] proximate cause for direct-knowledge > [4] condition for birth in Brahma world > [5] cessation (for noble ones) ============================ I find (1) and (2) of particualr interest. I find (1) interesting for two reasons: Buddhaghosa points it out as a blissful abiding here and now" particularly for arahants. On the one hand, that makes a lot of sense: they've done what is needed to be done, so for them it is just a "vacation spot"! On the other hand, being free of all aversion and clinging, why do they have need for such an abiding? I find (2) interesting, because it shows why jhanas are sometimes defined as right concentration, and why right concentration is an important aspect of the path (however one interprets 'path' ;-). With metta, Howard 30839 From: Date: Mon Mar 1, 2004 4:11pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Kalaka Sutta Hi, Swee Boon - In a message dated 3/1/2004 10:39:10 AM Eastern Standard Time, nidive@y... writes: > Hi Group, > > I would like commentaries on this sutta. Can someone provide it, > please? > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an04-024.html > > "When cognizing what is to be cognized, he doesn't construe an [object > as] cognized. He doesn't construe an uncognized. He doesn't construe > an [object] to-be-cognized. He doesn't construe a cognizer. > > Thus, monks, the Tathagata -- being the same with regard to all > phenomena that can be seen, heard, sensed, & cognized -- is 'Such.' > And I tell you: There's no other 'Such' higher or more > sublime. > > "Whatever is seen or heard or sensed > and fastened onto as true by others, > One who is Such -- among the self-fettered -- > wouldn't further claim to be true or even false. > > "Having seen well in advance that arrow > where generations are fastened & hung > -- 'I know, I see, that's just how it is!' -- > there's nothing of the Tathagata fastened." > > > Regards, > Swee Boon ==================================== You might look at the following site: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/9552401356/inktomi-bkasin-20/ref%3Dnosim/002-5213187-3898460 It is for the book Magic of the Mind: An Exposition of the Kalakarama Sutta (by Bhikkhu ~Nanananda). I've owned it for a good while, and I think it's great! With metta, Howard 30840 From: connie Date: Mon Mar 1, 2004 5:29pm Subject: Re: Are Arahants noticeably different Hi again, James ~ J: I don't think I mentioned anything about Paceekabuddha's in my last e-mail but I don't really know the difference between those and Sammasambuddha's. C: I said something about only a Buddha eradicating vaasanaa (and thought I might have speld it wrong) and I wasn't sure if that applied to both types of Buddha, but don't think it does. I'm not sure whether my points ever relate well to anything anyone else says, but I was saying we're not in any position to judge an arahant's behaviour, mental or otherwise, however shocking it might seem; that it was one thing for Buddha to call us fools and another for me to even consider it. J: But, honestly, I am not sure if the Lord Buddha was 100% perfect in all ways. It seems to me that he still had a weak spot when it came to women. I was just reading AN123 "Don't Judge Others" where he is to be reported as saying: "Who, indeed is this female lay disciple Migasala, this foolish, inexperienced woman with a woman's wit? And who (in comparison) are those who have the knowledge of other persons' different qualities?' Woman's wit? As opposed to a man's wit? It doesn't seem that the Buddha was real big on gender equality. C: Honestly??? He was as perfect as it gets, as we all know. And when you say, later, that "he doesn't have to be god-like to me for me to find refuge in him" it sounds like god-like might be somehow better to you. Good grief, man! Be vewwy, vewwy kehwfuwl. Somehow, I don't imagine the woman who repeated the AN to a full court of other women took offense at Buddha's words. Or if she did, she considered that vewwy kewhfuwwy and still chose to repeat them with the utmost reverance. These women drilled holes in the walls just to watch this man walk down the street. They must have treasured every word he said and worshipped every little move he made. Most - actually I think all of them - are said to have paid him the highest honour by attaining some level of enlightenment. I don't know how it goes in Pali, but maybe you'd be happier with Sister Uppalawanna's translations. In the sutta with 6 kinds of people she has Buddha saying that "They that measure people do it lopsidedly. Either I should measure people or one like me should do it. Ananda, who is this foolish lay female disciple with low wisdom? What does she know about the human character and everything that comes into the range of the mental faculties?" In the one about 10 kinds, it's "Ananda, who is this foolish silly female lay disciple Migasala? With unripe wisdom what does she know about the range of the mental faculites of Great beings? .. [such as she] measure for their unpleasantness for a long time ... Therefore Ananda do not measure people, that measurement is lopsided. Either I should measure people or one like me should do it." My brackets. I'd say that whatever our gender, each of us has our own kamma and are, by virtue of that, less than equal. I wouldn't say gender equality is either an issue or a fact, but Buddha was pretty egalitarian in letting it be known that all wordlings are mad. I guess there might be 'better' or 'lesser' degrees or kinds of madness, depending on where they take us. But all things being equal, even the sotapanna is not on the same level as the other ariyans and so on up the line to the different types of Buddha. At least Migasala wasn't totally witless, but she wasn't declared to be the equal to Sariputta in wisdom, either - Sister Khema was. But am I, in my madness, taking advantage of whatever wit I might possess or simply outwitting myself as I plant my next orchard full of monkey treats? The real clever nit-wit is the one who pulls them out. A sexy little (pCharter font) quote from Nina's Survey: < The difference in sex as man and woman which generally occurs in humans and other living beings is due to two different kinds of rúpa, bhåva rúpas (bhåva meaning nature), which are the following: Itthibhåva rúpa, femininity, a rúpa which permeates the whole body, so that it is manifested in the outward appearance, manners, behaviour and deportment which are feminine. Purisabhåva rúpa, masculinity, a rúpa which permeates the whole body, so that it is manifested in the outward appearance, manners, behaviour and deportment which are masculine. Each individual with bhåva rúpa, the rúpa that is sex, has either the rúpa that is femininity or the rúpa that is masculinity. In some cases the bhåva rúpa is lacking. Moreover, those who live in the "Brahma world" (higher planes of existence where one is born as result of jhåna, absorption concentration) do not have conditions for bhåva rúpa. >end quote. Nina just talks about the outer manifestations here, but these rupas might mean there really is a basic difference in how we experience the All. If so, I wonder if a transgendered person would know and whether that rupa really changes in them. Just idle curiousity and conjecture but I, the conjuror, say probably not. But sure, why not a woman's wit (to slightly misquote you) "as contrasted with a man's"? Where opposition comes in to play is when there's any development of the three wisdoms that get us out of our witless situation. In context, the wisdom he's comparing hers to is his (or one like him) and I don't think either of their genders is relevant. She could just as easily have been a male and in any case, even Ananda wasn't qualified to measure or judge others. Here's a neat little thing I read the other day in the foreword of Radhika Abeysekera's "Practising the Dhamma with a View to Nibbana": < ...at the time of the Lord Buddha Puraana (Ancient) Dipankara (not to be confused with the Buddha Dipankara who gave the definite proclamation) the Bodhisatta Gotama was a female, and offered mustard oil lamps and made the aspiration to become a Buddha. And as a result of all the meritorious deeds performed 'she' became a Buddha. < Are there female Buddhas? Maybe not in this lifetime or this Buddha's era, but it's all depends on conditions and anything is possible. There's not another male one on the near horizon, either, but some level of attainment is still possible for either gender. Personally, I don't care whether the next one's a guy or a gal. If it was a universal law that there are only male Buddhas and you knew it for a fact, would that knowledge make you sexist, whether you shared it or not? If it was some kind of dhamma, I don't think any amount of popular opinion would change it. Being politically correct ain't necessarily and actually right or even important. Is it any different for Buddha to point out the extent of a woman's wisdom than a man's? I don't know if this implies any kind of inequality or not, but did the World Honoured One always (?) list our All sensors in that particular order: eye, ear, nose, tongue, body-sense? Here's an inequality I do think is important -- and whoever I lifted it from, thank you very much: < The commentary to the "Path of Discrimination", the "Saddhammappakasini", explains that the perversions of sanna, citta and ditthi have different strengths: "... The perversion of sanna is the weakest in strength of all three. The perversion of citta has more strength than the perversion of sanna. The perversion of ditthi has the greatest strength of all three." < peace, connie 30841 From: Bhikkhu Samahita Date: Mon Mar 1, 2004 3:25am Subject: Sudden Certainty! Friends: The Arising of Sudden Certainty: When a calm & collected mind is firmly fixed on Transience, there gradually accumulates understanding of the real nature of the clusters of clinging. This complex of only mind-&-form, - mere mental & physical phenomena - ever arising & ceasing in a passing flux, is suddenly penetrated as both insubstantial and essentially impersonal ... This all new sensation of 'alien remoteness - foreign & artificial' of both internal & external elements, naturally induces a certain disgust & repulsiveness about this whole fleeting scenario ... Right there & then is noted: "Oohh really what emerges also ceases! How futile to search happiness in what can only be disappointing!!!" This flashing arising of Right View is irreversible & for the first time in this infinite cycle of existence, is attachment to the clusters of clinging momentarily eradicated ... The belief in a constant person, soul or self cannot be maintained... Egoism is thus cut at the very root & severely detrimental behaviour rooted in this egotism, can never again be done. Here the ways which lead to future bad states of misery & woe are forever left all behind! Knowledge associated with the path of Stream-Entry has been gained! When the last trace of sceptical doubt about the reality of the unique event of Buddha's Enlightenment is substituted by firm conviction & attachment to the opinion that mere rules & rituals can fulfil mental purification is relinquished, then the door to the deathless opens up ... Safe & assured is one of a maximum of 7 rounds before Awakening! Like coming home from a far, far sea journey by approaching the safe harbor at the other shore! Never again to return or die !!! Silent & serene bliss is the stilled peace ahead ... All yours in the Dhamma. Constructions Decay & Vanish. Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Buddha-Direct/ Click to subscribe to Buddha-Direct 30842 From: Date: Mon Mar 1, 2004 10:04am Subject: Re: [dsg] Htoo's comments on ''Common Misconceptions of Jhana'' by Jeff Brooks Hello Sarah this sounds like a noble venture, however I am rather busy reading the suttas, reflecting upon what I read, meditating, and answering the needs of students. Perhaps since Htoo has not once left a reference for any of his claims, and you seem to have avoided requesting such support from him, and this subject seems to be your interest not mine, then either of you can certainly do the homework, because I have done 30 years of homework already. It seems you two have some catching up to do. Kindest regards, Jeff Brooks In a message dated 2/29/04 9:56:05 PM, dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com writes: << Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2004 12:35:25 +0800 (CST) From: Sarah Subject: Re: Re: Htoo's comments on ''Common Misconceptions of Jhana'' by Jeff Brooks Hi Jeff, --- macdocaz1@a... wrote: > I agree with you Larry the translations by Thanissaro Bhikkhu and > Bhikkhu > Bodhi agree with respect to not revealing any disparagement of jhana, > and since > there is no other place in the Sutta Pitaka where the jhanas are > disparaged, we > then are forced to question Sister Upalavanna's translation. ..... I agree with you that the Buddha never disparaged the jhanas or indicated that they are anything but very highly developed wholesome states. Would you indicate the lines in the latter translation that disparage them , so we can look at them in the various translations more carefully. If you also give the same lines in the TB and BB translations (without any alterations please;-)), that would be even better. If necessary, we can look at the Pali too with some assistance. Metta, Sarah >> 30843 From: rjkjp1 Date: Mon Mar 1, 2004 8:05pm Subject: From Triplegem Dear group, I forward some letters I wrote on triplegem. In Triplegem@yahoogroups.com, han tun wrote: > Dear U Oo Maung, Swan, Robert, and Khanti-Khema, > > Thank you very much for your kind explanations. > I have noted many important points. > > (1) A person with sakkaya-ditthi may attain sugati > bhumi by doing dana, sila and bhavana, but he could > never realize magga and phala. (Mogok Sayadaw of > Burma used to say that yogis were making wrong > priorities by trying to eliminate tanha before > ditthi. He emphasized that yogis must eradicate > ditthi first.) ========= Dear Han Tun, This is important! Ditthi is the dangerous dhamma that needs to be worked on more than anything. It is what Sujin Boriharnwanaket always says too. All defilements are in some way related to the aggregates if for nothing else than that they are sankhara khandha, but lobha and dosa can arise without ditthi. So the sotapanna does not have wrong view about the aggregates that they are controllable or lasting. Robert 30844 From: rjkjp1 Date: Mon Mar 1, 2004 8:08pm Subject: from triplegem2 Triplegem@yahoogroups.com, " wrote: > Dear RobertK, 1. Your mind seems to dwell in the world of ultimate realities and, > at the same time, the real world of million concepts where you have > family and teach classes. Are there any conflicts? How long can you > go on like this? _________ Dear Tep, These are great questions. I think when there is a (belief in) 'self' then conflicts are inevitable. Then there is always 'me' trying to do or get something. A teacher once told me when she did 'vipassana' that she couldn't recognise her own husband - because that was a concept. This is not the way I see the practice. I used to have the idea: first get the mind nice and still and then ponder at leisure the changing patterns. However, this is caught up in a subtle idea that `mind' somehow exists. There is no Mind but there are only rapidly changing phenomena. It is changing so very, very fast. It is so natural that mental states are involved in concepts but in between there can be, sometimes, little flashes of insight that know the characteristic of paramattha dhamma (any of the khandhas such as seeing or sound or feeling, or hardness, or greed). Ronald Graham, a well-known mathematician said "You can do mathematics anywhere. I once had a flash of insight into a problem in the middle of a back somersault with a triple twist on my trampoline ( in the "The man who loved only numbers"). Of course panna (wisdom ) of vipassana is much faster than that as it is seeing dhammas not directly (not conceptualizing about them). Too, the thinking process has to be known, and it can't be known if one always turns away from it to tries to manufacture something else that one thinks is better or purer. If there are conflicts then this shows that one is trying to force, and not accepting the present moment as it is. The only way out is to insight such moments and see what is really present - Which one will see is some dhamma conditioned by tanha (desire) for a result. That tanha is part of dependent origination and no matter how much it feels like wholesome effort will actually hinder insight - unless it is seen as it is. Also I must confess that I err on the lazy side and take things pretty easy. ---------- > > 2. You mentioned, "I went back to Thailand in 1989 and stayed for > almost 4 months at a vipassana temple where the teacher was > knowledgeable on Abhidhamma and emphasized anatta." > > Have you found any major difference between the samatha-vipassana > methods as taught by monks in Thai temples and the insight- knowledge > development, using the paramattha-dhamma (ultimate realities) > concepts as taught by Sujin Boriharnwanaket? > > -------------------------------------- It depends very much on the temple I think. Most temples like to give some method that seems straighforward and then away people go and practice. However, as I said, the one I stayed at had a teacher who was good on Abhidhamma and really stressed anatta. (BTW I went to visit a few months ago, he is about 97 now and retired from teaching)so the differences between what he and Sujin said were subtle. . When I hear people ask A. Sujin "How do I practice?" her reply is very careful. In some ways it can't really be answered because such a question shows there is already a hidden idea of self who can do something. There are dhammas arising even while such questions are been asked and if there is enough understanding then sati can arise to be aware of the moment. It is always about this moment - according to A. Sujin. But that sort of answer doesn't satisfy tanha (desire) which always wants results now. Let's take a loook at what the Buddha said Majjhima nikaya 26, the Ariyapariyesana- sutta "This Dhamma which I have realised is indeed profound, difficult to perceive, difficult to comprehend..." Perhaps when we think we know, or think it is not so hard that is the time to be concerned. It may be mana or subtle attasanna (self) that is thinking like that. Robertk 30845 From: rjkjp1 Date: Mon Mar 1, 2004 8:10pm Subject: from triplegem3 In Triplegem@yahoogroups.com, > Dear RobertK, > > What practical method, step by step, do you need to follow in order > to catch those 'little flashes of insight' and to lengthen their > duration enough in order for 'wisdom and sati' to take control, such > that Tanha would not have a chance to arise? > > I have read a lot about 'bare attention', 'direct seeing without > thinking', 'experiencing ultimate realities without thinking and/or > conceptualizing'. But there is a big gap between the > concepts/lectures and the actual application. ___________ Dear Tep, When you are reading this reply now what is present? What realities? there is seeing and colour- can there be some direct study of these dhammas right now? There is also feeling - is it MY feeling or is there a little understanding that begins to understand it is just a conditioned phenomena with no owner. Or is there a little confusion about what was said? If so what is the actual nature of confusion? As well as explaining anatta and pointing to the present moment A. Sujin stresses on parami (perfections). She says they are the supports that assist wisdom do its job. For example if we are still stingy with regard to material things then how could we come to the stage of letting go of the idea of self completely. Oo Maung and Htoo were talking about the deva realm and how this human realm is a great place for developing dhamma and parami. In the Maha-samaya sutta of the Digha nikaya it says "Those who have gone to the Buddha for refuge Will not go to the plane of woe. On discarding the human body,They will fill the hosts of the devas."" Thus for many buddhist, like it or not, the next life may be in the deva world where some of the parami cannot be perfected (because no obstacles). And we should take this seriously. Whatever trials and tribulations come in life they should be warmly regarded as a great chance to develop patience (khanti) parami or whatever other parami is suitable. ------------------------------------------- > > BTW Have you known of any real person who's achieved Arahat-magga > this way? Is Ajaan Sujin 'close' to this ultimate goal, at least > from your perspective? ___________________ Actually I stopped wondering like this years ago, Tep, because I think it is always motivated by tanha. What we can know about a teacher - beyond speculation- is whether they point to the present moment in a way that helps us to begin to insight such moments. The rest is wishful thinking. The Anguttara nikaya commentary tells the story of one teacher, after the Buddhas time, who had many pupils all of whom attained arahatship. But he himself was still a wordling - not even a sotapanna. However, he understood the tipitaka very, very well; knew the letter and the meaning and so was a great teacher (Angutara nikaya Ekakanipata pali (the book of the ones) Nivaranapphahana-vagga (abandoning of hindrances) 6th sutta; about the Thera Gamantapabbharavasi mahasivatthera ). RobertK 30846 From: rjkjp1 Date: Mon Mar 1, 2004 8:13pm Subject: from triplegem4 In Triplegem@yahoogroups.com, "nidive " wrote: > Hi RobertK, > > > > > "And how bhikkhus does the attainment of profound > > knowledge come by means of a gradual training...? > >.... he hears Dhamma; having heard Dhamma he remembers it; ... > As you said, Theory and Practice should go together to achieve > the Path. > ________ Dear Swee boon, Yes. The theory is the basis for correct practice and as practice deepens it reveals the depth of the theory. When we first study a sutta we may think we understand - a few years later we may see that our first reading misunderstood or only saw it in a limited way. Those that truly understood were highly respectful of the teachings; it is why the arahants were so careful to record the teachings and preserve them at the first and subsequent councils. My teachers have always emphasised that study and practice should go together. If we see them as different things we might see the Abhidhamma as something to think about, like chemistry, rather than descriptions of what is happening now, dhammas to be directly insighted. While we are reading a Dhamma book there is seeing and visible object, there is feeling, there is sanna, sankhara and many other realities as explained in the satipatthana sutta. They can be known there and then. Likewise when there are activities like urinating, talking, laughing, crying there are the same realities that we read about in the Dhamma. There to be 'studied'. Of course no rules that we have to do this or that, or see it this way or that way. Nina van Gorkom wrote recently: robertK 30847 From: rjkjp1 Date: Mon Mar 1, 2004 8:16pm Subject: from triplegem 5 Dear Christine, """2. "there can be awareness of the characteristics" > What exactly are characteristic - I'm sure I've asked about this > before, but haven't retained the answer"""" ----------- I am sure everyone can add to this so I just give some introduction. Characteristic is the English translation of lakkhana. Ti lakkahana is the three general characteristics ie. anicca, dukkha and anatta of all realities except nibbana. But all realities also have visesa lakkhana - specific characteristics - and before the general charcateristics can be penetrated there must be the insight into the specific. So the first stage of insight is called namarupaparicheddanan - the delimiatation of mind and matter - and this insight clearly knows that mind and matter have very different characteristics. In the mulapariyaya sutta (see bodhi "root of existence") the Buddha explains that 'the uninstructed worldling perceives earth as earth......and he perceives the seen as the seen ..the heard as he heard...the sensed as the sensed..the cognised as the cognised..Having perceieved the cognised as the cognised he conceives himself as the cognised..in the cognised...apart from the cognised..the cognised is mine..What is the reason? Because it has not being fully understood." Just some quotes from the commentary and tika to this sutta: p39 "they bear their own characteristics, thus they are dhammas: This is said for the purpose of showing that these are mere dhammas endowed with the specific natures deviod of such attributions as that of 'being' etc... These dhammas are discovered as ultimately real actualities. And although there is no disctinction between these dhammas and their characteristics the exposition makes a distinction as a mere metaphorical device. Also they are borne, or they are discerned, known, according to their specific nature, thus they are dhammas."endquote ____________ > 1. "knows how to develop wisdom" - How? Is it > initially by the study of texts, and then what? ____________ The uninstructed worldling knows something of the characteristics of dhammas, he knows when he craves or feels angry. He can experience all types of subtle vibrations and hardness and coldness etc. If he trains himself by yoga etc. he can know that these are changing and many other things. But he conceives them wrongly as being me or mine etc..This misconceving can be subtle "I see anatta" . But The enlightened one experiences all these same dhammas but with the eye of wisdom. The "uninstructed worldling" p40 of mulapariyaya "needs to be taught, because he possesses neither learning(agama) nor achievement. For he who possesses neither the learning running counter to the activity of conceiving because he has neglected to study, question, and discriminate the aggregates(khandhas), elements, sense bases (ayatanas) truths, law of conditionality and foundations of mindfulness etc , nor spiritual achievement because he has failed to achieve what should be achived by practice is said to be 'uninstructed'. end qoute. Between the enlightened ones and the 'uninstructed worldling' there is the "good worldling' who is learning and developing correctly: p41 "The Buddha, the kinsman of the sun, speaks of the worldling in a twofold way. One is the worldling blinded by darkness and the other is the worldling noble and good"endquote Bhikkhu Bodhi notes in his introduction to mulapariyaya p14 That "in the stage of full understanding of the known, the gross object is analysed into its constituent dhammas and each dhamma is delimited in its distinct characteristic, function, manifestation, and proximate cause. This procedure rectifies the common sense assumption of simple substantial unites, disclosing in its place a world of composite wholes brought temporarily together through a concatenation of conditions" enquote. THe Dhammapada pradipaya (see p457 of carter) speaks about the development of insight into characteristics: "to consider the coming into being of rupa on account of ignorance, craving, kamma and nutrition, and also to see the mere characteristics of its instantaneous coming into being, without looking for causative aspect; thus one should consider the rise of rupa in five ways. Likewise to consider the rise of the other 4 khandas in the same way...Thus the rise of the pancakkhanda (five aggregates )is seen in 25 ways. To see that the rise of the khandas is stopped by abolishing the causes:ignorance, craving, kamma and nutrition..in this way the cessation of the agregates should be seen" end quote It can't be stressed enough that this procedure is not limited to thinking about these matters but that it is by the direct insight into these dhammas as they arise in the present moment that is true insight. If this is properly done then gradually, over a very long time, wisdom will develop and result in enlightenment. As a hint when you are walking along the street is there any discernment that what appears at the eyedoor is only visible object - different colours. Is there some understanding of the difference between the moment of seeing and the forming up of concpets such as people, cars, trees that happens so quickly. For the wise one who is skilled in this matter an earthquake could happen or a bomb explode and they would see that there is only aversion(dosa) when there is the taking of concepts in the wrong way . But well before this stage there has to be countless repetitions of knowing the characteristics of the different realities that appear - and so the difference between reality and concept becomes clearer. Robert 30848 From: Sarah Date: Mon Mar 1, 2004 9:23pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Htoo's comments on ''Common Misconceptions of Jhana'' by Jeff Brooks Hi Larry & All, --- LBIDD@w... wrote: >I was just reacting to this interminable discussion > on jhana which has been going on for years. I was getting tired of both > sides of the debate. .... I know how you feel -- this is probably my least favourite topic too;-) Really, when there is so little understanding of realities or the meaning of calm or of guarding the sense doors, I tend to wonder at the value of discussing nibbana or jhana, but everyone has their own topics of special interest;-). Funny too, how I can say this one moment and the next moment be reading the debates on apects of the jhanas with enthusiam in the Kathavatthu the next. I often find this with the teachings -- what is of no interest at one time can be fascinating at another;-) Topics discussed in the Kathavatthu. (If anyone would like a very brief summary, pls let me know): 1.Controverted Point: ‘That there is articulate utterance on the part of one who has entered into Jhana.’ 2. C.P.: ‘That in one who has attained Jhana through the earth-artifice, etc (kasinas), knowledge [of what is seen] is perverted.’ 3. C.P.:’That the attainment of cessation is unconditioned’ 4. C.P.’that in the Rupa-sphere (16 grades of devas, Brahma heavens being the lowest)the individual has all the six senses.’ 5.C.P. ‘That we pass from one Jhana to another (immediately.’ 6. C.P. ‘That there is an intermediate stage between the First and Second Stages (in 4fold classification).’ 7.C.P. ‘That one who has attained Jhana hears sound.’ ***** Yesterday when I was writing to Ken O, I quoted some brief commentary notes to MN2,Sabbasava Sutta. I’ve been especially considering the following one and on this thread the reference to attending to gratification in the jhanas: .... “MA illustrates the growth of the taints through unwise attention as follows: When he attends to gratification in the five cords of sensual pleasure, the taint of sensual desire arises and increases; *when he attends to gratification in the exalted states (the jhanas), the taint of being arises and increases*; and when he attends to any mundane things through the four “perversions” (of permanence, pleasure, self and beautiful etc), the taint of ignorance arises and increases.” **** Again it’s the wise or unwise attention, the understanding of present realities as you stress, whatever the subject matter that counts. Larry, looking forward to reading the next installments from Vism in your and Nina’s good time. Metta, Sarah ======= 30849 From: Sarah Date: Mon Mar 1, 2004 9:40pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Htoo's comments on ''Common Misconceptions of Jhana'' by Jeff Brooks Hi Jeff, --- macdocaz1@a... wrote: > Hello Sarah this sounds like a noble venture, however I am rather busy > reading the suttas, reflecting upon what I read, meditating, and > answering the needs > of students. ... S: No problem, I just asked as I found your comments suggesting a ‘disparagement of jhana’ in the translation surprising. I hadn’t noticed it in any extract posted, but am happy to have it pointed out. .... >Perhaps since Htoo has not once left a reference for any > of his > claims, and you seem to have avoided requesting such support from him, > and > this subject seems to be your interest not mine, then either of you can > certainly do the homework, because I have done 30 years of homework > already. .... S:I think Htoo and I have been pretty busy with our homework too, though it may be different from yours;-) I seldom need to ask Htoo for any reference and vice versa, because we’ve read the same texts, including Abhidhamma (extensively in his case, but not in mine), and we soon clear up any misunderstandings. I’m sure if you ask him kindly and respectfully to give a reference to any parts you disagree with or don’t understand, he’ll be happy to try and help. I appreciate his generosity in sharing his knowledge in this regard. Metta, Sarah ====== 30850 From: Sarah Date: Mon Mar 1, 2004 10:15pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Four paths of Knowledge or one? Hi Jeff, Christine & All, --- macdocaz1@a... wrote: > While the historic Buddha > chose > not to embrace many of the concepts of Hinduism, still his philosophy > and > practice were well within the constraints of that liturgy. One need > only read > these three bodies of literature to find evidence for that fact. .... S: However, I think that when one reads the Tipitaka, it’s immediately apparent that ‘his philosophy and practice’ were quite outside any constraints, especially with regard to the teaching on anatta. .... > In the yoga sutras the basic theme is one practices meditation to give > rise > to absorption states (samadhis), which are numbered in 8 intervals, and > culminate in nirvikalpa samadhi, which is otherwise known as nirvana. > This concept > of course is both philosophically and linguistically tied to the > Buddhist > concept of nirvana/nibbana and the jhanas. .... S: The question is whether there is any understanding of the ‘Buddhist concept of nibbana’ of any kind for those who have not begun to develop satipatthana. Even then, it can only be be known and understood at the stage of stream-entry. Recently Christine and Victor posted the well-known ‘Fire Sermon’. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/study/recognizing.html#dispassion Christine wrote: ..... >Bhikkhu Bodhi calls it 'Burning' and has a note about its origination, which is below: BB: "This sutta, often called "The Fire Sermon", is the third discourse of the Buddha as recorded in the narrative of his ministry at Vin I 34-35. According to this source, the thousand bhikkus were former jatila (matted-hair) ascetics under the leadership of the three Kassapa brothers. The Buddha had converted them by a series of miracles, after which he preached the present sermon. The sermon gains special meaning from the fact that before their conversion these ascetics had been devoted to the fire sacrifice. The full account is at Vin I 24-34; see Naanamoli, 'Life of the Buddha', pp. 54-60, 64-69. .... I followed the reference, Chris. The leader and guide of the brothers was Kassapa of Uruvela, highly regarded for his special powers and enlightened status no doubt. He watched the miracles performed by the Buddha including one in a fire chamber. After each one, Kassapa was very impressed but still considered the Buddha was not an arahant like himself. Eventually, we read: “Then the Blessed One thought: ‘This misguided man will go on forever thinking ‘But he is not an Arahant like me.’ Suppose I give him a shock?’ He told Uruvela Kassapa: ‘Kassapa, you are neither an Arahant nor are you on the way to becoming one. There is nothing that you do by which you might become an Arahant or enter into the way to becoming one.’ Kassapa and all the other matted-hair ascetics then took refuge in the Triple Gem and were ordained. .... Chris wrote: Spk: Having led the thousand bhikkhus to Gayaa's Head, the Blessed One reflected, "What kind of Dhamma talk would be suitable for them?" He then realized, "In the past they worshipped the fire morning and evening. I will teach them that the twelve sense bases are burning and blazing. In this way they will be able to attain arahantship." In this sutta the characteristic of suffering is discussed." ... And as we read at the end of the sutta, they all became arahants after fully penetrating the meaning there and then. Metta, Sarah ====== 30851 From: m. nease Date: Mon Mar 1, 2004 10:51pm Subject: Re: [dsg] 2)Sukkhavipassaka-Michael Hi Robert, Agreed, except I would say 'the Buddha's sense' rather than 'the Buddhist sense' since so much (all most all) Buddhism has little to do with the Buddhadhamma. mike ----- Original Message ----- From: "rjkjp1" To: Sent: Sunday, February 29, 2004 11:23 PM Subject: [dsg] 2)Sukkhavipassaka-Michael Without understanding what is paramattha and what is concept I think very difficult to have wise attention to the lakkhana, to understand what meditation means in the Buddhist sense. 30852 From: Sarah Date: Mon Mar 1, 2004 10:55pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: clearing up misunderstandings Hi Nina,James & All, S:Yes,always better to clear up any misunderstandings, especially amongst good dhamma friends like yourselves. --- nina van gorkom wrote: > Hi James, > This definition is better, but still not a very good thing. .... S: Nina, ‘Pandering’ is not so strong as James said. We might say a parent is always pandering to a child’s requests - something like that. Still, not very good as you say. ... > Visit her yourself and you can see whether she caters to the lower > tastes of > others, > that is all. .... S:I can’t help smiling at the thought of James visiting and expecting to be ‘pandered’ in anyway. Whilst I’m happy to be considered as having low tastes (or to be a ‘foolish woman’ which is very true), I can truly say that in 50 years I have never met *anyone* who pandered less to my low tastes and ignorance than K.Sujin;-) Shakti referred to some of her responses to questions as being like a ‘Manjushri sword’ cutting through the proliferations. She meant this as a real compliment, but it doesn’t appeal to our lower tastes, just as what we read in the texts doesn’t either. Just one brief example: Our very dear friend, Alan Driver (ex Phra Dhammadharo),who Nina and Azita sometimes quote, was killed in a nasty car accident in Thailand, 15 or 20 years ago, I forget. Jon had gone ahead for the ceremonies. I was teaching and could only go over for the actual funeral and cremation. I arrived tired and teary and feeling rather overwhelmed. Others helped ‘pander’ to my emotional state by offering me drinks, food, sympathy and the usual kindnesses. K.Sujin just smiled and talked about the distress as indicating the deep attachment to self and my own feelings. She’d then continue to talk about the usuals (seeing, visible object,thinking and so on). It was incredible. Within 5 -10 minutes I was smiling, eating and plucking flowers with the others as well, shocked out of my self-indulgent grief. Later, after the cremation, some of Alan’s bones were laid out. K.Sujin told me to touch them. “You see, just hardness, that’s all.” (Nina, sorry to repeat this example). Pandering reminds me more of what other teachers used to say to me before I heard K.Sujin or read Nina’s books. I’d meditate intensively and happily, be ticking off the stages of insight from the Visuddhimagga or Mahasi Sayadaw book. I’d visit Munindra or later the chief Venerable at my temple in Sri Lanka who’d tell me (I’m sure in good faith) this was all great and to carry on in this way to become enlightened any day soon. Deep down I knew there was something phoney about it all, but it was only when I listened to a tape of K.Sujin talking about the stories in the mind and the present moment and also read the first couple of pages of Nina’s ADL about nama and rupa, no self, that the penny really dropped that there wasn’t even a basic understanding of realities and all my intensive meditation had been followed with the wonderfull illusory idea that awareness could be controlled, no matter how much I’d read about anatta. Everyone has different experiences and we never know when we’ll read or hear something that is worthwhile for us. Everyone has different experiences. One thing for sure, hearing and reflecting on the truth is not easy and does not pander to our lower tastes, wherever we hear or read it in the Buddha’s teachings. Only the 'Triple Gem' can be our refuge as you reminded us, James. I appreciated that a lot. Metta, Sarah ====== 30853 From: Eznir Date: Mon Mar 1, 2004 11:57pm Subject: [dsg] Re: clearing up misunderstandings Dear Sarah, I posted a message to the effect that the Dhamma is subjective. Your sentiments here confirms this further. Metta eznir --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > Hi Nina,James & All, > > > Deep down I knew there was something phoney about it all, but it was only > when I listened to a tape of K.Sujin talking about the stories in the mind > and the present moment and also read the first couple of pages of Nina's > ADL about nama and rupa, no self, that the penny really dropped that there > wasn't even a basic understanding of realities and all my intensive > meditation had been followed with the wonderfull illusory idea that > awareness could be controlled, no matter how much I'd read about anatta. > > Everyone has different experiences and we never know when we'll read or > hear something that is worthwhile for us. Everyone has different > experiences. One thing for sure, hearing and reflecting on the truth is > not easy and does not pander to our lower tastes, wherever we hear or read > it in the Buddha's teachings. Only the 'Triple Gem' can be our refuge as > you reminded us, James. I appreciated that a lot. > > Metta, > > Sarah > ====== > > > 30854 From: Sarah Date: Tue Mar 2, 2004 0:46am Subject: Re: [dsg] The powerful tendecy Hi Ken O (& Chris), [Chris, thanks for posting the relevant part from the Sabbaasava Sutta, M2. I checked the pali for ideas or things in BB’s and it’s ‘dhamme’] --- Ken O wrote:> > k: Why a need to discuss the washing of dishes in the first place? > Anyway I did not say that simple things like walking or washing > dishes are not dhamma, they are dhamma and they are explain in > sattipatthana. ..... S:Discussing household chores in part of daily life. There can be sati, panna and wholesome states whilst washing dishes or talking about this topic. It just depends on the cittas at this or any other time. Wise attention and guarding the sense doors can arise anytime at all with right understanding. ..... > k: Is there a need to give a smile just because most people prefer > to see one in the first place? I dont think just because we did not > utter pleasantaries for other first, we are not polite. That is > called conditioned by self view or societal view. ..... S:Again it depends on the citta. We may smile with kusala or akusala cittas (as you know), or not smile with the same. If we consider others and smile or offer pleasantries, it can be with metta. At moments of metta, there is no ‘self or societal view’. However, I think we can also conform with ‘societal view’ with kusala cittas too. There doesn’t need to be any conflict. Likewise, we can not conform with kusala as well;-) ..... > K: Definitely when we teach others who do not know much about dhammas > with societal moral values and ethics that should be followed. Just > like I teach my son to be courteous .... S:Even if your son learns about the dhamma, it will be helpful for him to learn about societal values as well I think and then he can combine them;-) Like in Singapore, he can learn not to leave his chewing gum lying around out of consideration for others and as a societal value;-) .... > k: Did you see Buddha doing that when he visit a house and start > this type of conversation ;-). She is lay person that is alright. .... S:And we are lay people too;-)No limit to when sati can arise. Even bhikkhus can show courtesy and friendliness. When B.Bodhi visited HK last year, I was particularly impressed again by his concern and metta for others’ welfare and his friendly enquiries about us and others. .... > k: Yes, but why create more when we can be more mindful of our > motivations. I say to you once in Bkk that if we are not doing > anything kusala then it is aksuala :). .... S:No self to create and what is ‘doing’? If the citta (in the javana) is not kusala, it’s akusala. However, cittas are conditioned whether we speak or keep quiet, offer dana or perform misdeeds. Wise and unwise attention are so brief and momentary. Thinking about our motivations before and after acting can be useful. Even more useful is the sati and wise attention at that very moment of thinking or seeing or hearing. ..... >That is why zealous is > conditioned to arise as one knows the danger of not guarding the > senses because any moment Mara will attack. It is a natural > condition that is not need to purposely to mindful but understanding > of this will conditioned zeal to be mindful. .... S:Isn’t this thinking about being zealous or wishing to be zealous? Just checking. As I said, chanda or zeal can be kusala or akusala. .... > k: If you dont think intellectually in the first place and ponder its > meaning, it will not conditioned direct understanding. We must first > start with right understaning at the pannati level. If we dont even > consider dhamma in the pannati level for eg reading dhamma books, > there is no way we can conditioned right direct knowledge. .... S:OK, we agree, though even when we consider and reflect wisely, lobha can creep in anytime, wishing for a result, clinging to understanding and so on. Understanding that sati can arise whilst having dish washing conversations is also intellectual right understanding;-) .... > k: Sarah I think you and Jon has misunderstood about purposely > avoiding or self impose. If right understand arose that know the > danger of useless talk, one will know why one will naturally stop > talking unnecessary. .... S:Let’s say rt understanding knows the danger of kilesa and unwise attention at that moment and there will be avoiding of wrong speech (motivated by akusala)or wrong anything else. A moment later, it may be akusala speech (or silence) again. On our visit before in Bangkok, I remember Azita asking if a certain conversation was wrong speech. I had to consider. The truth, I think, is that usually kusala and akusala follow each other other very closely. We may start to give an example for a dhamma discussion as I was, but attachment and ‘idle chatter’ with unwise attention can creep in very easily.Even as I write now, there are moments wishing to have right speech, ignorance and a myriad of other realities being experienced. .... > k: As what Ven U Dhamminda said in "Right Speech", Buddha only > talks about kings etc only with the intention to teach the dhamma. > Other than that he dont mentioned it. >How could Buddha who said that > such talk is low talk and then encourage others to follow it. It > will not be possible. Hence one only talk about this if one wish to > seed some dhamma on others or not one will not talk about it > (strictly speaking that is for monks/nuns). So do you think when you > start a conversation about dish washing is the intention to seed > dhamma. So it is, good for you, if it is not then we have to think > what is the motivation behind it. ..... S:If it’s kusala or there’s metta at that moment it’s always good, regardless of whether there is any ‘intention to seed dhamma’. There can also be moments of right understanding at any time during the conversation and then there is wise attention as explained in the sutta and commentary. Understanding namas and rupas when they arise and appreciating the value of all kinds of kusala is more precious than thinking about our own and others’ motivations (which we can only blindly guess at). ..... >When you quote Sabhassa sutta, > idle chatter is definitely unwise attention. ... S:Idle chatter always refers to akusala or wrong speech, not the topic as such. With my students, I might discuss drugs, sex or rock n’roll. There are likely to be kusala and akusala cittas as I speak. Only sati and panna will know. As the commentary made clear ‘there is no fixed determination in things (dhammas) themselves as to whether they are fit or unfit for attention. The distinction consists, rather, in the mode of attention.’ Also, ‘when he attends to any mundane things through the four ‘perversions’, the taint of ignorance arises and increases. Of course the converse is true. From the sutta, we read: “What are the things fit for attention that he attends to? These are things (dhammas) such that when he attends them, the unarisen taint of sensual desire does not arise in him.....ignorance is abandoned.” Even whilst taking about dish-washing, one could become enlightened with sufficient insight developed. As the commentary said “...up to the attainment of the path of stream-entry, wise attention denotes insight (vipassana), but at the moment of the path it denotes path-knowledge. Insight directly apprehends the first two truths, since its objective range is the mental and material phenomena comprised under dukkha and its origin.” Thanks Ken O. You always help me to consider more deeply. I also appreciated your posts in Victor’s corner and that’s not a ‘societal view’. (Is he waiting for us or are we waiting for him?) Metta, Sarah ===== 30855 From: christine_forsyth Date: Tue Mar 2, 2004 1:24am Subject: Victor Re: The powerful tendecy Hello Sarah and all, Victor is away from 2 March until 16 March, and will be without computer or internet access during that time. I shall do my best not to let the side down :-) ... Once more into the breach dear friends etc. etc. :-) metta, Chris --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > > Thanks Ken O. You always help me to consider more deeply. I also > appreciated your posts in Victor's corner and that's not a `societal > view'. (Is he waiting for us or are we waiting for him?) > > Metta, > > Sarah > ===== 30856 From: rjkjp1 Date: Tue Mar 2, 2004 1:32am Subject: [dsg] Re: Rob K leaving? --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > Dear Robert k, > What, are you leaving dsg? I thought you would stay on, I am really sad > about that. But I know you will have a busy time just now! I hope you come > back soon. > I did not know I had written about 100 letters? Nice story you went to the > cemetery or woods, I did not know. > ======= Dear Nina, I think about that many. I have two ring binders with photocopies I made (sarah and Jon have a copy of volume 1) plus a box of ones that came later. Here is an url to the cemetery. Turns out it is only 228 acres - but still New Zealand's largest. http://www.waitakere.govt.nz/cnlser/cm/history.asp It has gentle hills; places with little glades; eerie valleys where the very old graves are all overgrown. Nice memories. RobertK P.s. I was thinking of selling the old house near there we used to live in (now rented out). Hmm maybe the Adams family ...http://www.hammerposters.com/pics/us10191.jpg 30857 From: Sarah Date: Tue Mar 2, 2004 1:33am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: clearing up misunderstandings Hi Eznir & Howard, --- Eznir wrote: > Dear Sarah, > I posted a message to the effect that the Dhamma is subjective. Your > sentiments here confirms this further. .... S:I think I understand you as I’ve followed your discussions with Howard with interest. In your well-written post (30584) to Howard, I agreed with most your comments and liked your quotes. One question. You wrote: .... E:>And how does one construct this path? Through intentions.< ..... S:This reminded me of our discussion which I’ve been meaning to get back to. ..... E: >How is it that intentions could be directed is the question. Lord Buddha in the Khajjaniya Sutta(Chewed Up) in SN-XXII.79 says: And what, monks, do you say are determinations(sankhára)? 'They determine the determined': that, monks, is why they are called 'determinations'. <...> (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn22-079.html) Expounded here are the function of Sankhára, how the 5-holding- aggregates, of which we are burdened with, are determined. This is to say a thing is what it is determined for. .... S: The point I think is that they (the khandhas) are conditioned. No self to direct them. .... E:<...> How does one purify the mind? Fill it up with Wholesome/skillful(kusala) states. How? By intending bodily, verbally and mentally. What does one intend? That which is wholesome(37- enlightenment factors) and conducive to Nibbana. Selection process? Wise attention. .... S:This is good. Ken O and I are discussing wise attention too. I think the key is understanding again rather than intention. .... E:So, given here, in brief, is the process by which this `directing the mind' towards Nibbana is achieved. It's easier said than done though!! ... S:Why so? Anatta;-) .... E:Read Dvedavitakka Sutta MN-19 to see how Lord Buddha directed his mind to sort two types of thoughts, the kusala and akusala. http://www.metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/2Majjhima- Nikaya/Majjhima1/019-dvedhavitakka-sutta-e1.htm .... S:Good suttas, all to be read in the light of satipatthana I think. I'll be glad to hear any further comments you have to share, Eznir. Howard, on the meaning of vinnana in D.O. I think it refers to the seeing, hearing and so on - results of kamma, thus conditioned by sankhara (in this case referring to kammic formations. Don’t confuse it with ~nana or wisdom or sati (awareness). From ‘The Discourse on Right View’ (The Sammaditthi Sutta and its Commentary),Translated from the Pali by Bhikkhu Ñanamoli, Edited and Revised by Bhikkhu Bodhi: "And what is consciousness, what is the origin of consciousness, what is the cessation of consciousness, what is the way leading to the cessation of consciousness? There are these six classes of consciousness: eye-consciousness, ear-consciousness, nose-consciousness, tongue-consciousness, body-consciousness, mind-consciousness. With the arising of formations there is the arising of consciousness.” ***** The commentary adds: “In the section on consciousness, eye-consciousness (cakkhuvi~n~naa.na) is consciousness in the eye or consciousness born from the eye. so also with ear-, nose-. tongue-, and body consciousness. but with the other one, i.e mind-consciousness (manovi~n~naa.na), mind itself is consciousness. This is a designation for the resultant consciousness of the three (munane) planes of existence except for the two groups of fiefold consciousness. With the arising of formations (sa’nkhaarasamudayaa): but here the arising of consciousness should be understood to occur with the arising of formations according to the method stated in the Visuddhimagga, as to which formation is a condition for which consciousness (XV11, 175-185).” ***** Would you agree with this? Metta, Sarah ===== 30858 From: Date: Mon Mar 1, 2004 3:20pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Four paths of Knowledge or one? Hello James, and thank-you for the encouragement to keep reading the pitaka. However, I regret to have to direct your attention to the Maha-satipatthana Sutta DN 22, where the result of the practice of Satipatthana is defined as sama-samadhi, and sama-samadhi is defined in terms of jhana. N 22.21 "And what is sama-samadhi? There is the case where an aspirant -- quite withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful (mental) qualities -- enters & remains in the first jhana... Kindest regards, Jeff Brooks In a message dated 3/1/04 6:24:15 AM, dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com writes: << I believe you are quite mistaken in this belief. Satipatthana doesn't result in any of the Jhana states. To summarize, the Buddha described Satipatthana as the `only direct path' and jhana as a `peaceful abiding in the here and now'. Perhaps you should go back and re-read the appropriate suttas and stop changing the words to suit your taste. Metta, James >> 30859 From: Sarah Date: Tue Mar 2, 2004 1:57am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Rob K leaving? Hi Rob, --- rjkjp1 wrote: > I think about that many. I have two ring binders with photocopies I > made (sarah and Jon have a copy of volume 1) plus a box of ones that > came later. .... Yes, I remember we read some, but also had a little difficulty with the writing over the entire sheets;-) Most Nina's old letters were all typed and duplicated, but your correspondence was special - all hand-written;-) Perhaps you'd consider selecting suitable Q & A from it and posting for everyone to see. Just slowly when you have time and if you keep us all happy by sticking around;-) Metta, Sarah ======== 30860 From: christine_forsyth Date: Tue Mar 2, 2004 2:07am Subject: [dsg] Re: Recognizing_the_Dhamma_'Being Unfettered' § 2.3 Hello Michael, and all, I think there are a number of things nowadays that could, in certain circumstances, be called silabbata-paraamaasa 'attachment to mere rules and ritual'. From the Oxford Dictionary: ---Rite: The act of performing divine or solemn service, as established by law, precept, or custom; a formal act of religion or other solemn duty; a solemn observance; a ceremony; ---Ritual:1. any customary observance or practice 2. the prescribed procedure for conductiong religious ceremonies 3. stereotyped behaviour. I have had it pointed out to me in the past that zealous keeping of the Precepts for the sake of keeping precepts could be an example of silabbata-paraamaasa. As well, it has been said that feeling one had to be in a certain place, at a certain time, and in a certain posture for mental development 'bhavana' to occur could also be an example. I'd be interested to hear your ideas. metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Michael Beisert" wrote: > Hello Christine and all, > > > > Christine: > > The first stage is the sotapanna (stream winner). The stream > represents the Noble Eightfold Path, and now the ariya is firmly > established on the path. At this stage he overcomes three fetters, > namely, 1) a view of a permanent self, 2) doubts about the Buddha, > Dhamma and the Sangha, and 3) adherence to rites and ceremonies. Now > he will be reborn seven times at the most. > > > > Michael > > Always good to remember the stages of enlightenment. In my mind anyone who takes the Buddhist path seriously should aim at least to the level of sotapanna in this very life. That is the only guarantee of continuing following the path in future lives and not falling back into lower planes of rebirth. Looking at the three fetters that have to be eradicated to reach sotapanna I was always puzzled by the adherence to rites and rituals. I suspect very few people would think that they have any kind of belief in the efficacy of rites and rituals, this sounds like some sort of ancient custom which does not apply today, and therefore the eradication of this fetter could be taken as a done deal. But is that really so? Can anyone see in our modern beliefs some sort of adherence that would fall into this category as intended by the Buddha? I have some ideas about that but let's see if others have something to say. > > > > Metta > > Michael > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/study/recognizing.html#unfettered > > 30861 From: Eznir Date: Tue Mar 2, 2004 2:36am Subject: Re: [dsg] A Bit More on Vi~n~nana as Subjectivity Dear Howard, ----------------------------------------------------- Howard: I don't interpret the eradication of the entire process as ending experience. What has ceased are the following: ignorance, ignorance- based sankharic construction (not the neutral volitions of an arahant), subjectivity and objectivity (not experience unpolarized into apparent subject and apparent object), the sense-door conduits, contact, self-oriented feeling (not impersonal pleasant, unpleasant, and neutral feelings), craving, clinging, becoming, birth and death and suffering. Don't forget that as I interpret it, contact is the coming together of subjectivity and objectivity via a conduit of a particular sort (visual, auditory, etc). When subjectivity and objectivity are gone, so are the conduits and the contact. But the six-sensory realm of experience continues. Experience as it actually is is direct and nondual, with there being no subject to be connected to objects - and without subjective knowing, there is no objective knowns. Are there still sights and sounds etc? Sure, but they are not objects of a knowing subject. They are, so-to-speak, self- experiencing. When the experience of no-self occurs, there is no sense of self and no objects either - but experience continues. When the items in the 12-link chain are understood as I have presented them, I believe that both the concocting direction of paticcasamupada and the unraveling direction make sense. --------------------------------------------------- eznir: If we can speak of a "living Arahant" I suppose the persistence of his 5-aggregates(because of life-principle and nutrition), until his body breaks up, would be structured this way: 1) Because of wisdom – there is no new constructions(Sankharas). 2) Because of residual constructs – Consciousness persists. 3) Because of consciousness – namarupa persists. 4) Because of namarupa – sensory fields(salayatana) persists. 5) Because of sensory fields – contact. 6) Because of contact – feelings persists. Since there is no craving, his structure collapses from this point. All the above will persist till life-principle is there. 1) As you said, since ignorance has ceased, wisdom prevails. Therefore whatever actions performed by an Arahant does not constitute kamma(no craving, conceit or views). Therefore no new constructs. 2) As life-principle remains residual constructs(5-aggregates) persists. Therefore the 4-fold requisites necessary. Hence consciousness, namarupa … till feeling is experienced with Wisdom as he has to interact with the outside world for the requisites and Teaching the Dhamma. But in private they are not necessary as they may abide in `voidness'or other states they are skilled in(It is said that Lord Buddha abides in voidness often). ----------------------------------------------- Howard: Oh, sure! Subjectivity (meaning "the sense of a knowing self") really does arise in the mind, and it does so practically all the time. But the "knowing self" that is sensed does not exist. So, the subjectivity (i.e., the seeming of knowing self) is a mirage/illusion in the sense that it actually points to nothing, just as the seeming of a pool of water in an utterly dry desert is a mirage/illusion because there is no pool - but, in each case, the mirage/illusion does arise in the mind of the weary wanderer. Language use is funny, of course. Sometimes 'mirage' means the illusory experience (which exists), and sometimes it means the non-existent "thing" that seems to be experienced. ----------------------------------------------------------- eznir: A finer point regards Illusion & Mirage: The word `Illusion' brings up the image of a magician performing on a stage a conjuring trick in front of an audience. The audience is not going to believe that there is a rabbit in the top hat when he pulls one out of it. But is only curious as to how he does it. There is no belief involved. With `Mirage' it is different. It is associated with a weary traveler on a desert, having lost his way, traveling under the hot noon sun, with the vultures circling up in the sky for company. Then he sees an oasis in the distance. He sums up his remaining energy and rushes towards it, to find it's a mirage! In this image, he believes what he seems to see and this is certain for him under the circumstances. The Mahayanist school of thought would like to believe that the Self is an illusion. That nothing is real, not even the 5-aggregates. That everything is in a state of flux. The Theravada school of thought would believe that the Self is a mirage. It seems real but the reality is only in the persistence of the 5-aggregates which he does not know. The self-identity(individuality) of the 5-aggregates and the identity of self in the 5- aggregates are two different things. The former is the distinctive difference between two sets of 5-aggregates, while the latter is personality view, the super ego, , of this 5- aggregates, so to speak. In both there is subjectivity, except in the latter there is personality view on top of it(RESTING LIKE A PARASITE). metta eznir 30862 From: Ken O Date: Tue Mar 2, 2004 2:45am Subject: Re: [dsg] The powerful tendecy Hi Sarah k: I thought we have stop > S:Discussing household chores in part of daily life. There can be > sati, panna and wholesome states whilst washing dishes or talking about this topic. It just depends on the cittas at this or any other time. Wise attention and guarding the sense doors can arise anytime at all with right understanding. k: I know what you gearing at, I told you earlier there is satipatthana in every moment. What I saying is, are you sure it is metta that you first started about dish washing. One can be concern of other welfare but that does not mean metta because we want to know how the person doing or going. It can be plain akusala citta that condition the conversation. > .... > S:And we are lay people too;-)No limit to when sati can arise. Even > bhikkhus can show courtesy and friendliness. When B.Bodhi visited > HK last year, I was particularly impressed again by his concern and metta for others’ welfare and his friendly enquiries about us and others. > .... k: Have you seen Buddha disciples (monks and nuns) offer pleasantaries to lay people. It is always the other way round. I have not seen in the Sutta that monks offer pleasantaries to laypple. If nowadays monks/nun do that then its up to them. As the Buddha say, if it is not the dhamma then remain Noble silent. Why because of tendecies, when we talk of how are you, are you ok, all these are householder talk, it could bring attachment to the household life, it brings memories. That is why this precept is enforced for monks/nuns. > S:No self to create and what is ‘doing’? If the citta (in the > javana) is not kusala, it’s akusala. However, cittas are conditioned whether we speak or keep quiet, offer dana or perform misdeeds. Wise and unwise attention are so brief and momentary. Thinking about our motivations before and after acting can be useful. Even more useful is the sati and wise attention at that very moment of thinking or seeing or hearing. > ..... K: We know what we are talking so do pick on words ;-). Thinking is not the right word. I should have used wise attention. I say earlier, not just after or before but also the present. .... > S:Isn’t this thinking about being zealous or wishing to be zealous? > Just checking. As I said, chanda or zeal can be kusala or akusala. > .... k: Zealous is a natural condition. Only considering of dhamma then zealous will be arise because one knows the danger of aksuala cittas. > > Thanks Ken O. You always help me to consider more deeply. I also > appreciated your posts in Victor’s corner and that’s not a > ‘societal view’. (Is he waiting for us or are we waiting for him?) k: I am waiting for him. Ken O 30863 From: Ken O Date: Tue Mar 2, 2004 3:02am Subject: Re: [dsg] SN 6 Brahmasamyutta 1 (1) Brahmaa's Request Hi Micheal I am surprise. I believe you should know better than saying such words. This gave me an impression either you are genuinely do not understand the danger of sensual pleasure or you are just trying to test my understanding. Be very mindful of akusala cittas because even seeing a neutral object , it would have conditioned akusala cittas. If you think it is easy to say lets enjoy it with detachment as some people will like to tell themselves, then I would say good luck because that is an unwise view. All sensual pleasure are burning with passion. One moment of citta of akusala could bring a big avalanche of aksuala tendecies that dated since countless lives ago. Buddha is not just concern about akusala cittas, IMHO he is more concern about the kilesa of akusala cittas that could conditioned akusala citta to arise again and again which is hard to detect but powerful when it manifested. I have seen stories about disciples who lost their powers because IMHO latency has arise and subdue them. Ken O --- Michael Beisert wrote: > Hello KenO, > > Yeah. I can see how difficult it is. Better not bother about it and > stick with the pleasure of the senses. > > Metta > Michael 30864 From: Philip Date: Tue Mar 2, 2004 3:18am Subject: Re: Back to the cushion Hello Ken, and James, and all. I've been intending to get back to a question that Ken was kind enought to ask the other day. This is probably not the best time to add to the "to sit or not" debate, but I guess that is ongoing, so no harm done. And no one will be likely to take the opinion of a beginner with too much seriousness that could add to the intensity of the debate in an unpleasant way. Ken: > May I ask; is your sitting meditation aimed at jhana or > at satipatthana? There is a lot of confusion over the meaning of > those terms. P: I do basic, beginner's vipassana as taught in "Mindfulness in Plain English" with the breath as meditation object. Or should I say "had been doing." I had no ambition to ever become a jhana practicioner, believing right off the bat, perhaps incorrectly, that it was out of the question living in a modest-sized apartment with noisy neighbours on all sides and a time-demanding, non- contemplative wife awaiting my reappearance in the kitchen to cook or wash the dishes. :) I always felt that the meditation was just an exercise getting em ready for the day ahead, because it seemed to me that mindfulness during the day was more important, somehow. I guess that's one reason I've responded so favourably to the kind of examination of realities taught in Nina's books, though I've only begun to grasp what it is. The book I read recommended Metta contemplation as a warm-up exercise for vipassana, but I was doing it the other way around, as the Brahma-VIharas are so very important for me. I saw the sense of calm I sometimes (when I didn't fall asleep) accessed in meditation as a manifestation of Upekkha, which is central in my Brahma-Vihara practice. I know this is not Right Understanding, but I take great liberties with Brahma-VIharas, applying their "boundless" nature to freedom from rules, as well. When I sat in the morning, I was really warming up my immersion in Upekkha for the day ahead. Indeed, I discovered that during the day, as I walked my 30 minutes to the station, I was unconciously coming back to the breath, to that calmness. (In my Brahma-Viharas practice, the way I have coneptualized and to some point embodied it, Metta and Karuna arise from Upekkha, with Upekkha as a kind of base camp to retreat to, though this group is helping me to be free from that kind of "safe haven of the soul" kind of thinking.) Anyways, the Vipassana practice is not as firlmly established as the Brahma-VIharas, which I have been playing with (having fun is important) for a couple of years now. Coming to this group and finding a tradition that denies the need for seated meditation was quite surprising, as I'm sure it is for most people. And I resisted the idea at first. But when I think of it, now, it seems quite common sense to at least ask if it isn't indeed self that must by definition make the decision to sit and steer the attention to a focus point. This evening, I was reading this excellent article about spiritual materialism that James (thank you James) was kind enough to link me to in response to my concerns about my motivations of practice the other day: http://www.sacred-texts.com/bud/tib/cutting.htm Here is a passage from it: "The Lords' defenses are created out of the material of our minds. This material of mind is used by the Lords in such a way as to maintain the basic myth of solidity. In order to ?ee ?or ourselves how this process works we must examine our own experience. "But how," we might ask, "are we to conduct the examination? What method or tool are we to use?" The method that the Buddha discovered is meditation. He discovered that struggling to find answers did not work. It was only when there were gaps in his struggle that insights came to him. He began to realize that there was a sane, awake quality within him which manifested itself only in the absence of struggle. So the practice of meditation involves "letting be." " (end of quote) "The Lords" refers to "The Three Lords" which the article says is a a Tibetan metaphor for the functioning of Ego. The Lord of Form refers to "the neurotic pursuit of physical comfort." The Lord of Speech refers to "the use of intellect in relating to the our world." The Lord of Mind refers to "the effort of consciousness to maintain awareness of itself." Now, when I read the above passage, I asked myself who decides to set the "gaps" in the "struggle?" In my case, when I did my beginner's vipassana, a big part of it was getting comfort out of whatever calm I accessed, having that breath as a reliable friend to return to. Surely that was The Lord of Form seeking comfort. For the time being, I will be examining the very new-to-me notion of going through the day without this kind of the breath as a reliable friend to return to for comfort. For the time being. I know for the people here who are serious practicioners of sitting meditation, this problem has been overcome, but for me it hasn't, and while I will still be sitting, as a warm-up for Brahma-Viharas contemplation (which is shamelessly conceptual) for the time being it won't be much more than that, I'm sure. But I make it a point to stay open to new turns in the road, and I'm sure there are many ahead. One of them could very well find me devoted to sitting meditation. There are many ways to learn about, practice and eventuall be Dhamma, and more than one of them can be Right, of course. Sorry for rambling. If anyone is still reading this, I would like to give you a Toblerone chocolate bar as a reward for your patience. :) Metta, Philip 30865 From: Sarah Date: Tue Mar 2, 2004 3:30am Subject: Re: [dsg] The powerful tendecy Hi Ken O, --- Ken O wrote: > k: I know what you gearing at, I told you earlier there is > satipatthana in every moment. What I saying is, are you sure it is > metta that you first started about dish washing. One can be concern > of other welfare but that does not mean metta because we want to know > how the person doing or going. It can be plain akusala citta that > condition the conversation. ... It can be. You can ask Lodewijk next time;-) Only sati will know, not the other person. In truth, I have no doubt there were kusala and akusala cittas arising for us both during the conversation;-)No need to pinpoint exactly what citta started the conversation. Impossible to know;-) ..... > k: Have you seen Buddha disciples (monks and nuns) offer > pleasantaries to lay people. It is always the other way round. I > have not seen in the Sutta that monks offer pleasantaries to laypple. .... S:You may be right, but I just opened MN at the first sutta with a lay person: "Then the brahmin Jaa.nusso.ni went to the Blessed One and *exchanged greetings* with him. When this courteous and amiable talk was finished, he sat down at one side and said......" We'd have to look at the pali to know what exactly 'exchanged greetings' means. .... > If nowadays monks/nun do that then its up to them. As the > Buddha say, if it is not the dhamma then remain Noble silent. Why > because of tendecies, when we talk of how are you, are you ok, all > these are householder talk, it could bring attachment to the > household life, it brings memories. That is why this precept is > enforced for monks/nuns. .... Yes, for monks/nuns as you say. Metta, Sarah p.s no threads ever dead;-) ======= 30866 From: Philip Date: Tue Mar 2, 2004 3:44am Subject: Re: Scholars and Meditators Hello James, and all. I enjoyed the comic relief in this. It's always pleasant to read about people of different traditions learning to respect each other. This is the sutta's description of "Dhamma Experts" >`Look at those monks! They think, "We >are Dhamma-experts, we are Dhamma-experts!" And therefore they are > conceited, puffed up and vain; they are talkative and voluble. They > are devoid of mindfulness and clear comprehension, and they lack > concentration; their thoughts wander and their senses are > uncontrolled. When I first came across DSG, just before the end of the year, I had the impression that the above could be the case here. All that Pali! I couldn't make heads or tails of it, and while I could tell something very impressive was going on, I thought there might be intellectual ego at work. Now I am learning otherwise. THe Pali terms refer to realities that we can come to experience directly. The practice taught by Nina and others promises to lead me, I sense, to the polar opposite of being "devoid of mindfulness and clear comprehension." It's about experience ultimate realities here and now. I'm sure we're all familiar with the kind of puffed-up Dhamma experts the sutta refers to. But I haven't come across any in my time at DSG yet. (Well, to be honest I find one of the spammers a bit dosa- arousing) Still feeling very, very grateful for having come across this group. With Metta, Philip --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: > Hi All, > > I have been studying the AN lately (wanted to take a break from the > SN), and I came across this sutta that just really made me laugh—a nd > reminded me of DSG ;-)): > AN 125 "Scholars and Meditators" > > Thus have I heard. On one occasion the Venerable Mahacunda was > dwelling at Sahajati among the Ceti people. There he addressed the > monks thus: > > "Friends, there are monks who are keen on Dhamma (20) and they > disparage those monks who are meditators, saying: `Look at those > monks! They think, "We are meditating, we are meditating!" And so > they meditate to and fro, meditate up and down! (21) What, then, do > they meditate about and why do they meditate?' Thereby neither these > monks keen on Dhamma nor the meditators will be pleased, and they > will not be practicing for the welfare and happiness of the > multitude, for the good of the multitude, for the welfare and > happiness of devas and humans. (22) > > "Then, friends, there are meditating monks who disparage the monks > who are keen on Dhamma, saying `Look at those monks! They think, "We > are Dhamma-experts, we are Dhamma-experts!" And therefore they are > conceited, puffed up and vain; they are talkative and voluble. They > are devoid of mindfulness and clear comprehension, and they lack > concentration; their thoughts wander and their senses are > uncontrolled. What then makes them Dhamma-experts, why and how are > they Dhamma-experts?' Thereby neither these meditating monks nor > those keen on Dhamma will be pleased, and they will not be practicing > for the welfare and happiness of the multitude, for the good of the > multitude, for the welfare and happiness of devas and humans. > > "There are Dhamma-experts who praise only monks who are also Dhamma- > experts but not those who are meditators. And there are meditators > who praise only those monks who are also meditators but not those who > are Dhamma-experts. Thereby neither of them will be pleased, and > they will be practicing for the welfare and happiness of the > multitude, for the good of the multitude, for the welfare and > happiness of devas and humans. > > "Therefore, friends, you should train yourselves thus: `Though we > ourselves are Dhamma-experts, we will praise those monks who are > meditators.' And why? Such outstanding men are rare in the world who > have personal experience of the deathless element (Nibbana). > > "And the other monks, too, should train themselves thus: `Though we > ourselves are meditators, we will praise those monks who are Dhamma- > experts.' And why? Such outstanding persons are rare in the world > who can by their wisdom clearly understand a difficult subject." > > Note 20: Dhammayoga. AA says that the term refers to preachers > (dhamma-kathika), but it probably refers to all those who are keen on > studies and cultivate principally the intellectual approach. The > term seems to be unique to the present text and the distincition > posited between meditators and "those keen on Dhamma" is suggestive > of a late origin. > > Note 21: Jhayanti pajjhayanti nijjhayanbti avajjhayanti. These > synonyms, formed by prefixes to the verb "to meditate", cannot be > rendered adequately into English. They are meant to indicate > belittlement and ridicule. > > Note: If people refuse to give respect or recognition to those with > talents, temperaments or pursuits different from those of their own, > only mutual displeasure will result. An exclusive emphasis on one- > sided development will not lead to progress and true happiness, which > can be found only in an ever-renewed attempt at harmonizing what > should be complementary, and not antagonistic, in the human mind and > in society. > > James Note': I just had a sobering thought: What if we all have been > arguing this subject for coutless lifetimes? ;-)) 30867 From: buddhatrue Date: Tue Mar 2, 2004 3:31am Subject: [dsg] Re: clearing up misunderstandings Hi Nina, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > One more thing, It *seemed* to me you implied time and again that the > Abhidhamma is against the Buddha's teaching, and that the work I do in > writing about the abhidhamma is acting against the Buddha's teaching. It > seems that whever you have a chance you say something along these lines. > Again, I don't mind this, but like to know. > What exactly in my ADL book put you off? What exactly in the Abhidhamma you > find contrary to the Buddha's teachings? What exactly in Buddhaghosa you > find contrary to the Buddha's teachings? Hi Nina, I am not going to answer these questions in detail. They are too vast and complicated to try to tackle. Why drudge up the past? Why do you want me to justify how I was in a certain time in the past? I am not the same person now as I was then; I will not be the same person in the future as I am now. I have let all of my past views and comments go. They are not me. You should let them go also. Perhaps I still hold some of the same views as the past and perhaps I have altered some, but that isn't important. Let me quote from Ven. K. Piyatissa Thera for something to contemplate: "All things are momentary. Both his mind and body are momentary too. The thoughts and the body with which the wrong was done to me are not now existing. What I call the same man now are the thoughts and physical parts which are different from the earlier ones that harmed me although belonging to the same psycho-physical process. Thus, one thought together with one mass of physical parts did me some wrong, and vanished there and then, giving place to succeeding thoughts and material parts to appear. So with which am I getting angry? WIth the vanished and disappeared thoughts and physical parts or with the thoughts and material parts which do not do any wrong now? Should I get angry with one thing which is innocent whereas another thing has done me wrong and vanished?" I will comment to this issue of your writing however. (Perhaps the fact that I like Y. Karundasa's writing on the Abhidhamma more than yours has inspired this line of questioning?) Honestly, your writing style doesn't greatly appeal to me because I like more `vibrancy' in writing and also philosophical explanations. Your writing is very plain and packed with details (I thought I had covered this before??). However, your writing does appeal to many others. Writing is a matter of taste and there is no one style that is superior to others. You write in a style that helps to encourage detachment from the words and the style. That is commendable. I like fancy words and flowery language; what can I say? ;-)) The Buddha also used colorful language when the situation warranted it, and he sometimes used very simple speech. You write in a language that is not your mother tongue so it is by necessity simplistic. I am a published writer but that doesn't mean I am an expert about all writing. As far as content, I have some disagreements about how you present dhammas, rupa especially. In summary, I pretty much agree with all that Michael says in this regard. I believe you present dhammas as real entities which persist over time rather than as temporary phenomena with no essence. Metta, James 30869 From: gazita2002 Date: Tue Mar 2, 2004 4:10am Subject: [dsg] Re: Rob K leaving? --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > Hi Rob, > > --- rjkjp1 wrote: > > > I think about that many. I have two ring binders with photocopies I > > made (sarah and Jon have a copy of volume 1) plus a box of ones that > > came later. > .... > Yes, I remember we read some, but also had a little difficulty with the > writing over the entire sheets;-) Most Nina's old letters were all typed > and duplicated, but your correspondence was special - all hand- written;-) > > Perhaps you'd consider selecting suitable Q & A from it and posting for > everyone to see. Just slowly when you have time and if you keep us all > happy by sticking around;-) > > Metta, > > Sarah > ======== Dear Sarah, Rob and others, It's strange [well, conditioned I suppose], but just today as I was cleaning out some old papers etc. I came across some 'roneo-d' sheets with the heading "Discussions in Sri Lanka 1979" the very year I was there with my then, small daughter Zoe. Here are some of the 'one-liners': If one does not realise yet that one has wrong understanding, it is impossible to develop right understanding. One takes subtle attachment for calmness bec of lack of understanding of calmness. When there is awareness, there is no thinking of far or near objects. Who knows the other's cittas? The aim of thinking about concepts in the right way is to know more about realities. Life is make belief. We make it something it isn't. If you think you are so clever and others don't think so, you feel sorry. Attachment to self brings sorrow. Can you tell what is beyond this moment? It is kindness to others if we don't cling to them or encourage them to be attached to us. When there is dosa, there is strong lobha somewhere that has conditioned it. The Buddha taught us to listen to Dhamma, not to people............... Enuff for now, my eyes aren't workin' properly. More later. ....but I like this one: we don't understand the game of tanha, so we follow it wherever it goes!!!! Metta, Azita. 30870 From: Michael Beisert Date: Tue Mar 2, 2004 4:30am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Recognizing_the_Dhamma_'Being Unfettered' § 2.3 Hello Christine, I have not elaborated on this idea a lot but I tend to see a parallel between the attachment to rites and rituals prevalent at the time of the Buddha and our modern attachment to science. That all problems in life and all answers can be solved by science. I think science is our modern rites and rituals. But as I said I would have to work on that to substantiate my arguments. At this point it is just a thought. What do you think of that? Metta Michael ----- Original Message ----- From: christine_forsyth To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, March 02, 2004 5:07 AM Subject: [dsg] Re: Recognizing_the_Dhamma_'Being Unfettered' § 2.3 Hello Michael, and all, I think there are a number of things nowadays that could, in certain circumstances, be called silabbata-paraamaasa 'attachment to mere rules and ritual'. From the Oxford Dictionary: ---Rite: The act of performing divine or solemn service, as established by law, precept, or custom; a formal act of religion or other solemn duty; a solemn observance; a ceremony; ---Ritual:1. any customary observance or practice 2. the prescribed procedure for conductiong religious ceremonies 3. stereotyped behaviour. I have had it pointed out to me in the past that zealous keeping of the Precepts for the sake of keeping precepts could be an example of silabbata-paraamaasa. As well, it has been said that feeling one had to be in a certain place, at a certain time, and in a certain posture for mental development 'bhavana' to occur could also be an example. I'd be interested to hear your ideas. metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Michael Beisert" ...> wrote: > Hello Christine and all, > > > > Christine: > > The first stage is the sotapanna (stream winner). The stream > represents the Noble Eightfold Path, and now the ariya is firmly > established on the path. At this stage he overcomes three fetters, > namely, 1) a view of a permanent self, 2) doubts about the Buddha, > Dhamma and the Sangha, and 3) adherence to rites and ceremonies. Now > he will be reborn seven times at the most. > > > > Michael > > Always good to remember the stages of enlightenment. In my mind anyone who takes the Buddhist path seriously should aim at least to the level of sotapanna in this very life. That is the only guarantee of continuing following the path in future lives and not falling back into lower planes of rebirth. Looking at the three fetters that have to be eradicated to reach sotapanna I was always puzzled by the adherence to rites and rituals. I suspect very few people would think that they have any kind of belief in the efficacy of rites and rituals, this sounds like some sort of ancient custom which does not apply today, and therefore the eradication of this fetter could be taken as a done deal. But is that really so? Can anyone see in our modern beliefs some sort of adherence that would fall into this category as intended by the Buddha? I have some ideas about that but let's see if others have something to say. > > > > Metta > > Michael > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/study/recognizing.html#unfettered ttp://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/study/recognizing.html#unfettered> > > 30871 From: Michael Beisert Date: Tue Mar 2, 2004 5:08am Subject: Re: [dsg] SN 6 Brahmasamyutta 1 (1) Brahmaa's Request Hello KenO, There is no human life without pleasure, right? There are only two kinds of pleasure, not a third one. Pleasure of the senses and jhanas. If one does not enjoy the pleasure of jhanas what does he/she enjoy? Pretty obvious isn't it? Metta Michael ----- Original Message ----- From: Ken O To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, March 02, 2004 6:02 AM Subject: Re: [dsg] SN 6 Brahmasamyutta 1 (1) Brahmaa's Request Hi Micheal I am surprise. I believe you should know better than saying such words. This gave me an impression either you are genuinely do not understand the danger of sensual pleasure or you are just trying to test my understanding. Be very mindful of akusala cittas because even seeing a neutral object , it would have conditioned akusala cittas. If you think it is easy to say lets enjoy it with detachment as some people will like to tell themselves, then I would say good luck because that is an unwise view. All sensual pleasure are burning with passion. One moment of citta of akusala could bring a big avalanche of aksuala tendecies that dated since countless lives ago. Buddha is not just concern about akusala cittas, IMHO he is more concern about the kilesa of akusala cittas that could conditioned akusala citta to arise again and again which is hard to detect but powerful when it manifested. I have seen stories about disciples who lost their powers because IMHO latency has arise and subdue them. Ken O --- Michael Beisert > wrote: > Hello KenO, > > Yeah. I can see how difficult it is. Better not bother about it and > stick with the pleasure of the senses. > > Metta > Michael 30872 From: Sarah Date: Tue Mar 2, 2004 5:24am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Rob K leaving? Hi Azita, --- gazita2002 wrote: > It's strange [well, conditioned I suppose], but just today as I > was cleaning out some old papers etc. I came across some 'roneo-d' > sheets with the heading "Discussions in Sri Lanka 1979" the very year > I was there with my then, small daughter Zoe. ..... ...and those were the notes I jotted down during those discussions;-) Metta, Sarah ====== 30873 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Tue Mar 2, 2004 5:59am Subject: Re: [dsg] The Benefits of Jhanas Howard I have copied below the brief description for benefits (1) and (2) of the develoopment of concentration. As I read it, (1) applies to the Arahant only (not at all to the non-arahant). Of course, the arahant does not do anything because he 'needs' to, but because either of past accumulations or of seeing the benefit involved. As regards (2), it can only be proximate cause for one who has developed insight. It is not given as a means to the development of insight, as I see it. Jon 120 - Herein, the benefits of the development of concentration are fivefold, as a blissful abiding here and now, and so on. [1] For the development of absorption concentration provides the benefit of a blissful abiding here and now for the Arahants with cankers destroyed who develop concentration, thinking 'We shall attain and dwell with unified mind for a whole day'. Hence the Blessed One said: 'But, Cunda, it is not these that are called effacement in the noble ones' discipline; these are called blissful abidings in the noble ones' discipline' (M.i,40). [2] When ordinary people and trainers develop it, thinking, 'After emerging we shall exercise insight with concentrated consciousness', the development of absorption concentration provides them with the benefit of insight by serving as the proximate cause of insight, and so too does access concentration as a method of arriving at wide open [conditions] in crowded [circumstances].[45] Hence the Blessed One said: 'Bhikkhus, develop concentration; a bhikkhu who is concentrated understands correctly' (S.iii,13). --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Jon (and Swee Boon) - ... > [1] a blissful abiding here and now (for the Arahants with > cankers destroyed) > [2] proximate cause for insight > [3] proximate cause for direct-knowledge > [4] condition for birth in Brahma world > [5] cessation (for noble ones) ============================ I find (1) and (2) of particualr interest. I find (1) interesting for two reasons: Buddhaghosa points it out as a blissful abiding here and now" particularly for arahants. On the one hand, that makes a lot of sense: they've done what is needed to be done, so for them it is just a "vacation spot"! On the other hand, being free of all aversion and clinging, why do they have need for such an abiding? I find (2) interesting, because it shows why jhanas are sometimes defined as right concentration, and why right concentration is an important aspect of the path (however one interprets 'path' ;-). 30874 From: Ken O Date: Tue Mar 2, 2004 6:29am Subject: Re: [dsg] SN 6 Brahmasamyutta 1 (1) Brahmaa's Request Hi Michael M> There is no human life without pleasure, right? k: That is why Buddha say his teaching is against the stream because wordlings like me always thought if there is no pleasure what is the meaning of being human. It is difficult to tell people that human pleasure is dukkha. M: There are only two kinds of pleasure, not a third one. Pleasure of the senses and jhanas. If one does not enjoy the pleasure of jhanas what does he/she enjoy? Pretty obvious isn't it? K: When I said jhanas bliss it is in terms of stream entrant level bliss till Arahant (Nibbana bliss) and not those experience by worldings in rupas or arupas jhanas. Anyway even clinging to bliss before one reach Arahant, is still not condone by Buddha. So where is there enjoyment (in terms of human enjoyment) of so call jhanas pleasure. It must be an Arahant jhanas bliss which I think what Buddha describe as bliss abiding here and now. Ken 30875 From: buddhatrue Date: Tue Mar 2, 2004 7:27am Subject: Re: Four paths of Knowledge or one? Hi Jeff and All, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, macdocaz1@a... wrote: > Hello James, and thank-you for the encouragement to keep reading the pitaka. > However, I regret to have to direct your attention to the Maha- satipatthana > Sutta DN 22, where the result of the practice of Satipatthana is defined as > sama-samadhi, and sama-samadhi is defined in terms of jhana. > > N 22.21 > "And what is sama-samadhi? There is the case where an aspirant -- quite > withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful (mental) qualities -- enters & > remains in the first jhana... > > Kindest regards, > > Jeff Brooks What you write here is misleading. The Maha-Satipatthana Sutta, The Greater Discourse on the Foundations of Mindfulness, contains the additional section on contemplation of the Four Noble Truths that the Satipatthana Sutta doesn't contain. You write "where the result of the practice of Satipatthana is defined as sama-samadhi, and sama-samadhi is defined in terms of jhana" but this is not true. The Four Noble Truths are to be contemplated as mind objects but not really practiced. These are thoughts, not actual actions or results. This section also lists the first Noble Truth that life is suffering, so, in essence, you are also saying that Satipatthana results in suffering!! ;-)) Jeff, only the first jhana allows for directed thought and evaluation, the rest of the jhanas don't have directed thought or evaluation. Satipatthana has directed thought and evaluation every step of the way. Do you now understand the difference? The Buddha does give one sutta, to a particular monk, where he is to use the meditation objects of: Good Will, Compassion, Body, Feelings, Mind, and Mental Qualities in such a way as to reach each of the jhanas (thought the term `jhana' is never used, just the appropriate description). However, this monk is to use each of these objects in successive steps, one after the other, as the Buddha specifically instructs: first: Good Will, second: Compassion, etc. It is a very odd sutta and I don't think it applies to everyone, just this particular monk in question: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an08-063.html (My edition of the AN doesn't contain this sutta. I would like to read the commentary notes about it. Does anyone else have the commentary notes?) However, even in this case the description for the practice is very different than how the Four Frames of Reference are presented in the Satipatthana Sutta. Metta, James 30876 From: icarofranca Date: Tue Mar 2, 2004 7:49am Subject: [dsg] Re: Recognizing_the_Dhamma_'Being Unfettered' § 2.3 Dear Michael Respecfully butting in... ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > I have not elaborated on this idea a lot but I tend to see a parallel between the attachment to rites and rituals prevalent at the time of the Buddha and our modern attachment to science. That all problems in life and all answers can be solved by science. I think science is our modern rites and rituals. But as I said I would have to work on that to substantiate my arguments. At this point it is just a thought. What do you think of that? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- More or less, Michael! Science has the right prize on all this kind of arguments... when Galileo raised up his controversy about the true movement of Sun , Moon, the planets and etc, he was not only fighting up against mere superstitious remarks: Aristotle was the true ruler of all Middle Ages Ideas, and go against him was not only heresy, but a real punch on all philosophical, political, cultural, religious, etc, concepts, feelings and ideas. And it was a dare act of this man of science, so faithful to Rome and the Catholic Church! Science nowadays is the divine architect of our world in all senses. It has its own rites ? Unfortunately yes! When I was carrying on the Doctorate Grade on National Observatory of Rio de Janeiro ( Before decoming the 2 Lieutennant-Engineer Ícaro, of FAB!!!)I try to demonstrate an intrincate equation on eletromagnetic waves propagating on vacuum to my teacher, and he answered: "all right! All right, boy! But the formula we use here at Observatory IS THAT ONE!" Magister Dixit, Causa finita! Buddha has not so many hindrances and misconceptions as Aristotle (uff!!!!), but reading the quotes Good Larry has posting here on Vism, about movement of air and feelings on our vocal strings and etc, I see and confess that the great Buddhaghosa is a genius, but at Physical Sciences he has a long, long way to Tipperary to thread up! Mettaya, Ícaro 30877 From: icarofranca Date: Tue Mar 2, 2004 7:58am Subject: [dsg] Re: Rob K leaving? Dear RobK I got my Duroseille's and the Dhammasangani ( metta.lk version) on ring binders, and that's a good idea! Only the Visuddhimagga I asked to my retailer will be harcover (BPS version... they hadn't the Paryatti paperback edition!) --------------------------------------------------------------------- > I think about that many. I have two ring binders with photocopies I > made (sarah and Jon have a copy of volume 1) plus a box of ones that > came later. > Here is an url to the cemetery. Turns out it is only 228 acres - but > still New Zealand's largest. > http://www.waitakere.govt.nz/cnlser/cm/history.asp > It has gentle hills; places with little glades; eerie valleys where > the very old graves are all overgrown. Nice memories. > RobertK > P.s. I was thinking of selling the old house near there we used to > live in (now rented out). Hmm maybe the Adams > family ... --------------------------------------------------------------------- "Please don't go... Don't gooooooooooooooo......" Mettaya, ícaro 30878 From: Date: Tue Mar 2, 2004 3:34am Subject: Re: [dsg] the self... how?/Jack In a message dated 2/27/04 6:01:09 PM Central Standard Time, macdocaz1@a... writes: Hello James and Jack, I would very much like to read Thanissaro Bhikkhu's article, because I believe it supports my premise as well. Is the article online? I would like to read it. Jeff, Here is the article's location: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/modern/thanissaro/concmind.html Jack 30879 From: Date: Tue Mar 2, 2004 3:44am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: clearing up misunderstandings Hi, Sarah - In a message dated 3/2/04 4:34:55 AM Eastern Standard Time, sarahdhhk@y... writes: > Howard, on the meaning of vinnana in D.O. I think it refers to the seeing, > hearing and so on - results of kamma, thus conditioned by sankhara (in > this case referring to kammic formations. Don’t confuse it with ~nana or > wisdom or sati (awareness). > --------------------------------------------------------- Howard: I don't confuse it with ~nana, wisdom, or sati - rather the opposite. I was distinguishing vi~n~nana from ~nana. I understand vi~n~nana as subjectivity - as a seeming of subjective knowing, a knowing by a "self" or subject of experience. The content of experience is, of course, all conditioned, and it is conditioned by many factors, among which are formational processes (sankhara). But vi~n~nana/subjectivity is an especially ignorance-fueled sankharic fabrication, and the ignorance that spurs the arising of such subjectivity is the basis for dukkha. The vedantists took subjectivity and raised it to majestic levels, identifying ultimate reality with pure subjectivity, leaving all else as illusion. The materialists, especially the behavioral materialists, take the opposite approach, coming close to denying experience in its entirety. ---------------------------------------------------------- > > From ‘The Discourse on Right View’ (The Sammaditthi Sutta and its > Commentary),Translated from the Pali by Bhikkhu Ñanamoli, Edited and > Revised by Bhikkhu Bodhi: > > "And what is consciousness, what is the origin of consciousness, what is > the cessation of consciousness, what is the way leading to the cessation > of consciousness? There are these six classes of consciousness: > eye-consciousness, ear-consciousness, nose-consciousness, > tongue-consciousness, body-consciousness, mind-consciousness. With the > arising of formations there is the arising of consciousness.â€? > ---------------------------------------------------------- Howard: And why would it be any more advantageous for consciousness IN THE SENSE of experience to cease than for it not to cease? I say it would not. I say there best exist neither craving for experience nor for absence of experience. However, subjectivity via eye, ear, nose, tongue, body, or mind is all advantageously abandoned, for it is all ignorance based. That is what I take to mean the cessation of vi~n~nana - the cessation of subjectivity. And it comes about with the cessation of ignorance. When the Buddha achieved his final liberation under the Bodhi tree, the unraveling aspect of paticcasamupada occurred. That included the cessation of vi~n~nana. But the Buddha did not thereby become insentient. No longer, however, did there remain even a wisp of sense of self, and without that, no ignorance-based fabricating, no arising of a sense of subjective knowing and known objects and doorways opening to connect them, whence no contact (of subject with object), no self-oriented feeling, no craving, no clinging, no becoming, no birth, no death, no suffering. ------------------------------------------------------ > ***** > The commentary adds: > “In the section on consciousness, eye-consciousness (cakkhuvi~n~naa.na) is > consciousness in the eye or consciousness born from the eye. so also with > ear-, nose-. tongue-, and body consciousness. but with the other one, i.e > mind-consciousness (manovi~n~naa.na), mind itself is consciousness. This > is a designation for the resultant consciousness of the three (munane) > planes of existence except for the two groups of fiefold consciousness. > > With the arising of formations (sa’nkhaarasamudayaa): but here the arising > of consciousness should be understood to occur with the arising of > formations according to the method stated in the Visuddhimagga, as to > which formation is a condition for which consciousness (XV11, 175-185).â€? > ***** > Would you agree with this? > ---------------------------------------------------- Howard: I don't get much out of it to agree or disagree with. My understanding on this issue is as I indicated above and in previous posts on the topic. =========================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 30880 From: Michael Beisert Date: Tue Mar 2, 2004 9:32am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Recognizing_the_Dhamma_'Being Unfettered' § 2.3 Hello Icaro, My contention is not about the contents of science, whether the affirmations made by scientists of different ages are valid or not. My contention is that the relationship people have today with science has a parallel with the relationship people in ancient times had with rites and rituals. In the sense that in the past rites and rituals is where people would go in search of answers and solutions for all problems and today people deposit their faith in science to provide all the answers and solutions. There is almost a sort of blind faith in the power of science. It is in relation to those aspects that I see the attachment people have today to science as being similar to past attachments to rites and rituals. Metta Michael 30881 From: icarofranca Date: Tue Mar 2, 2004 10:01am Subject: [dsg] Re: Recognizing_the_Dhamma_'Being Unfettered' § 2.3 Dear Michael Right. I think that was the old August Comte's Positivism that stipulated Science as standing on a higher foot than religion or mysticism: Shamanism and Magic rituals always promised control of Nature to work FOR you and not AGAINST you, with results more or less consistent with its so called premises...but Science was not only promised such feats but effectively did it at large, reshaping the world, raising up not only the Titanic or the but all stands of common life at levels barely dreamed on few centuries ago. Of course you get yet famine, poverty, pestilence, ill-posed science concepts... but could you ever imagine Paris at Molière's time compared with the present day Paris ? Unthinkable! What I was intending to say is that even the modern "Man of Science" get such fetishism on science and attachment at formulae, methods, kinds of experiments and so on. If there is such "Blind Faith on Science" is not fault of Science itself, but of ...hmmm...bad scientists and researches that could prefer build up a charlatanism "in nomine scientarum" than make down real work. I get some personal experiences on this field, mainly at Quantum Mechanics teaching Métier: some paragon and strange physical ideas are easily manipulated to obscure things so prosaic like personal vanities! I am quite optmist about science. Sir James G. Frazer, at the final chapter of his masterpiece "The Golden Bough" said that someday magic could take out the Interpretation of Nature laurels of science's hands. I could call this sabotage!!!! Mettaya, Ícaro 30882 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Mar 2, 2004 10:14am Subject: Re: [dsg] The Benefits of Jhanas Hi Howard, May I butt in? no 1 just reminded me of a sutta text, Maha Parinibbanasutta: 32, where the Buddha says to Ananda: I am old, etc. It is only when he . no 1: think of it, no bodily painful feeling either. This was also mentioned when the Buddha suffered from pain, and this was the only time without pain. 2 (but Jon may have mentioned this before): only possible for those who have the masteries of jhaana, entering and emerging whenever they wish, so that jhanacitta arises perfectly natural for them. in that case it can be proximate cause for insight, that also has to be developed. If there are no masteries, jhana will not be proximate cause for insight. op 02-03-2004 00:53 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: > [1] a blissful abiding here and now (for the Arahants with >> cankers >> destroyed) >> [2] proximate cause for insight >> [3] proximate cause for direct-knowledge >> [4] condition for birth in Brahma world >> [5] cessation (for noble ones) > ============================ > I find (1) and (2) of particualr inte?est. > I find (1) interesting for two reasons: Buddhaghosa points it out as a > blissful abiding here and now" particularly for arahants. On the one hand, > that makes a lot of sense: they've done what is needed to be done, so for them > it is just a "vacation spot"! On the other hand, being free of all aversion > and clinging, why do they have need for such an abiding? > I find (2) interesting, because it shows why jhanas are sometimes defined as > right concentration, and why right concentration is an important aspect of the > path (however one interprets 'path' ;-). 30883 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Mar 2, 2004 10:14am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Are Arahants noticeably different Dear Connie and James, Connie, thank you for your post. This is one of the necessary qualifications for becoming a Buddha, as is stated in the sutta (A.I. 15.2.2.), and explained in the co to the Caryapitaka B.B. Net of Views, p. 262. He has to be a male. I can add to a female's wit: in another sutta (Kindred Sayings) the Buddha said, that as to the development of right understanding even up to the stage of arahat, men and women are equal. James, the Buddha was the perfected one, the fully enlightened one. He had accumulated the perfections for aeons. The arahat has eradicated all defilements, latent tendencies included. No trace left. He sometimes spoke to the monks about women in a way that seems rather harsh to us, but, he thought of the monks who might be attracted to them. The other day we talked about ariyan and arahat: you can find this in Buddhist Dictionary, Nyanatiloka. If you do not have this already, it is very helpful to understand suttas, do not mind the Pali, you will surely enjoy this, it makes pleasant reading. It explains many terms that you meet when reading suttas. He gives many sutta references for the terms used. It is also on line. Nina. op 02-03-2004 02:29 schreef connie op nichicon@h...: > Are there female Buddhas? 30884 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Mar 2, 2004 10:14am Subject: verbal intimation, Tiika and note 29 verbal intimation, Tiika and note 29 Tiika: Atthaavabodhanasamattho vaciiviseso vaciibhedo. Speech utterance is the difference in voice so that one is capable to understand a meaning. Tena vaayuvanappatinadiighosaadi.m nivatteti. Therefore, this excludes the sound of the wind in the forest that is unobstructed, and so on. Tassa pavattaka.m citta.m samu.t.thaana.m yassaa saa vaciibhedappavattakacittasamu.t.thaanaa, pathaviidhaatu. That which is originated by citta in the case of the occurrence of speech intimation originated by citta, is the earth element. Tassaa ya.m upaadinnasa"nkhaatassa akkharuppatti.t.thaanassa gha.t.tanasa~n~nita.m kicca.m, The so-called knocking together of what is reckoned as grasped materiality and the place where the syllables arise is its function, tassa sahakaariikaara.nabhuuto aakaaraviseso vaciivi~n~natti naamaati dassento aaha ³vaciibheda..pe..pe.. vaciivi~n~nattii²ti. and while he explained that the mode of change that has become a cooperating cause for this is called verbal intimation, he said: ³The utterance of speech...etc. is verbal intimation.² ****** English: Speech utterance is the difference in voice so that one is capable to understand a meaning. Therefore, this excludes the sound of the wind in the forest that is unobstructed, and so on. That which is originated by citta in the case of the occurrence of speech intimation originated by citta, is the earth element. The so-called knocking together of what is reckoned as grasped materiality and the place where the syllables arise is its function, and while he explained that the mode of change that has become a cooperating cause for this is called verbal intimation, he said: ³The utterance of speech...etc. is verbal intimation.² **** note 29.Text: 'The question, "It is the mode and the alteration of what?", should be handled in the same way as for bodily intimation, with this difference: for "next to the apprehension of the appearance of movement" substitute "next to the hearing of an audible sound". And here, because of the absence of stiffening, etc., the argument beginning "For it is the air element given rise to by the seventh impulsion" does not apply; for the sound arises together with the knocking together, and the knocking together only applies in the case of the first impulsion, and so on. N: Quoting from the Co to Abhidhamma Sangaha (p. 226): Thus this is different from bodily intimation where only the seventh javanacitta originates bodily communication. Text: The knocking together is the arising of groups of primaries (bhuuta-kalaapa) in proximity to each other due to conditions. The movement is the progression of the successive arising in adjacent locations. This is the difference. N: The movement: this refers to bodily intimation, as we have seen. Verbal intimation is knocking together. I quote from the Co to Abhidhamma Sangaha (p. 226): In conventional language we can speak of the vocal cords. Text: The earth element's knocking together is parallel to the air element's moving as regards function' (Pm. 452). ***** Nina P.S. After this note, still another part of Tiika about mind-door, I shall translate. 30885 From: Date: Tue Mar 2, 2004 5:55am Subject: Re: [dsg] The Benefits of Jhanas Hi, Nina - In a message dated 3/2/04 1:18:06 PM Eastern Standard Time, nilo@e... writes: > > Hi Howard, > May I butt in? no 1 just reminded me of a sutta text, Maha Parinibbanasutta: > 32, where the Buddha says to Ananda: I am old, etc. It is only when he > comfortable.> . > no 1: think of it, no bodily painful feeling either. This was also mentioned > when the Buddha suffered from pain, and this was the only time without pain. > 2 (but Jon may have mentioned this before): only possible for those who have > the masteries of jhaana, entering and emerging whenever they wish, so that > jhanacitta arises perfectly natural for them. in that case it can be > proximate cause for insight, that also has to be developed. If there are no > masteries, jhana will not be proximate cause for insight. ======================== Thank you for this. I do understand that this would be a means of avoiding bodily pain for the Buddha. My question, however, is a more basic one: Why would a Buddha, or more generally an arahant, being entirely freed of tanha, want to *avoid* pain? Why would he want to *escape* from it into an absorptive state? Would that not be aversion? I think this is an important matter, as it pertains to exactly what if any limitations there are to "complete liberation". With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 30886 From: christine_forsyth Date: Tue Mar 2, 2004 0:56pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Recognizing_the_Dhamma_'Being Unfettered' § 2.3 Hello Michael, I agree with you. I am not a scientist and probably will use the wrong terms, but I think that scientific enquiry often focuses on ever smaller relationships between things and the affects they have on each other. Sometimes small portions of knowledge are encapsulated, and the scientists can lose sight of the bigger picture. Their fragments of knowledge can become a God in itself, rather than being seen as only one tiny specialised window onto the universe and its teeming population of beings. . People who are the experts in science are also assumed to be mature, highly ethical and operating for the good of all beings. Current certainties in science are only certainties until someone else's research throws doubts on them. But, by that time, whole new systems can have been created and the affects on populations can often be negative. This has been noticeable in the are of psychosocial research and the therapies that arose from that. Government policy and legislation can even be based on such science, only to be considered by later generations as premature reliance on incomplete knowledge which may have had damaging results in people's lives, the lives of non-human beings, and the environment. Scientists often have no control over the use their findings are put to, and, now as always, the three poisons of greed, hate and delusion control the world, metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Michael Beisert" wrote: > Hello Icaro, > > My contention is not about the contents of science, whether the affirmations made by scientists of different ages are valid or not. My contention is that the relationship people have today with science has a parallel with the relationship people in ancient times had with rites and rituals. In the sense that in the past rites and rituals is where people would go in search of answers and solutions for all problems and today people deposit their faith in science to provide all the answers and solutions. There is almost a sort of blind faith in the power of science. It is in relation to those aspects that I see the attachment people have today to science as being similar to past attachments to rites and rituals. > > Metta > Michael 30887 From: christine_forsyth Date: Tue Mar 2, 2004 1:32pm Subject: Dhamma notes[dsg] Re: Rob K leaving? Hello Sarah, RobK, Azita and all, It would be wonderful, and beneficial to us all if you could give us any further excerpts from your notes and correspondence that help to increase understanding. One of the one-liners that leaped off the page for me, was: "It is kindness to others if we don't cling to them or encourage them to be attached to us." How hard is this! Part of my instant assessment of others is whether I like them or not. Part of my remaining in contact with others is whether I like them or not. Most of my unhappiness relates to being separated from those I am attached to, and having to be with those to whom I am definitely not attached, and having others who are not attached with the same intensity to me as I am to them (or vice versa). metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "gazita2002" > > It is kindness to others if we don't cling to them or > encourage them to be attached to us. > 30888 From: christine_forsyth Date: Tue Mar 2, 2004 1:34pm Subject: Re: Scholars and Meditators Hello Philip, James and all, This sutta comes up from time to time on dsg. You may like to read an earlier 'appearance' at Post 7421: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/7421 metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- 30889 From: connie Date: Tue Mar 2, 2004 5:28pm Subject: Re: Are Arahants noticeable different/correction Sorry, Everyone ~ | | Somehow, I don't imagine the woman who repeated the AN to a full court | of other women took offense at Buddha's words. Or if she did, she | considered that vewwy kewhfuwwy and still chose to repeat them with the | utmost reverance. These women drilled holes in the walls just to watch | this man walk down the street. They must have treasured every word he | said and worshipped every little move he made. Most - actually I think | all of them - are said to have paid him the highest honour by attaining | some level of enlightenment. | I was thinking of the Itivuttaka, not the AN. peace, connie 30890 From: Philip Date: Tue Mar 2, 2004 5:37pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Rob K leaving? Hello all. I've been enjoying these same discussion notes, and for other newcomers like myself they can be found here: http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Metta, Philip --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > Hi Azita, > > --- gazita2002 wrote: > > It's strange [well, conditioned I suppose], but just today as I > > was cleaning out some old papers etc. I came across some 'roneo- d' > > sheets with the heading "Discussions in Sri Lanka 1979" the very year > > I was there with my then, small daughter Zoe. > ..... > ...and those were the notes I jotted down during those discussions;- ) > > Metta, > > Sarah > ====== > > 30891 From: rjkjp1 Date: Tue Mar 2, 2004 6:23pm Subject: Re: [dsg] 2)Sukkhavipassaka-Michael Dear Howard and Group, Glad to see you considering this in various ways. I just give a hint now. http://www.vipassana.info/l.htm#348 This is the story Of Uggasena. he was a famous acrobat and was at the top of a sixty foot pole performing a dangerous stunt. The Buddha came to where he was and all the people stopped looking at Uggasena adn turned to the Buddha. When Uggasena saw that he was being neglected and ignored, he just sat on top of the pole, feeling very discontented and depressed. The Buddha then addressed Uggasena, "Uggasena, a wise man should abandon all attachment to the khandha aggregates and strive to gain liberation from the round of rebirths." There and then at the top of the pole he became an arahant by seeing Was there samadhi - yes, there was that special samadhi that only the Buddhas can teach. Insight into the five khandhas as they arise in the present moment. RobertK In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > > Thank you for repeating this worthwhile old post. It occurs to me that > there is a matter that might relate to the content of it, somewhat obliquely, > of course. There may well be two sorts of (truly absorptive) jhanas, one > being the sort predating the Buddha, in which most investigative faculties are > dulled to the point of nonexistence, and a second in which investigation of > dhammas is yet possible. In the Anupada Sutta, detailing Sariputta's use of jhanas > (all of them) in attaining final release, it is said that in every one of the > basic eight jhanas except the last, in addition to the conditions that > characterize the jhana, there are also available all of the following: > > > ... contact, feelings, perceptions, intentions, interest, resolution, > > effort, equanimity and attention > > Tangentially related to this is the claim made by Ven Sheng- Yen, the > Ch'an master, that the "absorptive states > of Mahayana", in contradistinction from those of "hinayana", are such that > "normal" abilities are available to the practitioner while in them. Now, > despite the pro-Mahayana propaganda involved in this, there may be something > significant that is genuinely being pointed to here. > > With metta, > Howard >> > > 30892 From: rjkjp1 Date: Tue Mar 2, 2004 6:34pm Subject: Dear Group, I have been discussing off-list with Nina and others and have now decided not to leave dsg but instead take a sabbatical for the next 5 or 6 months. The sound of Dhamma is a profound melody and can be drowned out when surrounded by prattle and noise. The Dhamma can be devalued when it is not given and received in a very respectful way. http://www.vipassana.info/d.htm#Udayi Robertk 30893 From: m. nease Date: Tue Mar 2, 2004 7:00pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Htoo's comments on ''Common Misconceptions of Jhana'' by Jeff Brooks Hi Philip, This (kusala) practice is known in abhidhamma as 'di.t.thujukkama', straightening or correction of views. Very important I think. mike ----- Original Message ----- From: "Philip" To: Sent: Sunday, February 29, 2004 11:13 PM Subject: [dsg] Re: Htoo's comments on ''Common Misconceptions of Jhana'' by Jeff Brooks ...I think the flow of ideas in discussion here can become like a form of practice... 30894 From: kenhowardau Date: Tue Mar 2, 2004 7:17pm Subject: Re: Back to the cushion Hi Philip, Thanks for your reply: ----------------- P: > This is probably not the best time to add to the "to sit or not" debate, but I guess that is ongoing, so no harm done. ----------------- As I see it, the `to sit or not' debate is a side issue. The main issue is that there are only paramattha dhammas arising, here and now, at one of the six doors. This is a profound and far-reaching truth. I find it far more inspiring, challenging and life-changing than my formal meditation ever was. Unfortunately, the two approaches are incompatible and so disagreements must arise. ----------------- P: > I do basic, beginner's vipassana as taught in "Mindfulness in Plain English" with the breath as meditation object. Or should I say "had been doing." I had no ambition to ever become a jhana practicioner, believing right off the bat, perhaps incorrectly, that it was out of the question living in a modest-sized apartment with noisy neighbours on all sides and a time-demanding, non- contemplative wife awaiting my reappearance in the kitchen to cook or wash the dishes. :) ---------------- It is such a relief to be back in a world where those daily activities take priority. Previously (in my meditating days) I resented them as disruptions to my `calm Buddhist mind.' Now, they can be appreciated as opportunities for dana, sila and bhavana. ---------------- P: > I always felt that the meditation was just an exercise getting me ready for the day ahead, because it seemed to me that mindfulness during the day was more important, somehow. I guess that's one reason I've responded so favourably to the kind of examination of realities taught in Nina's books, though I've only begun to grasp what it is. ---------------- You are grasping them quickly which means you must be doing something right:-) My guess is you have understood the difference between concepts and realities. Otherwise, the significance of nama and rupa could not be appreciated. ----------------- P: > ["Mindfulness in Plain English"] recommended Metta contemplation as a warm-up exercise for vipassana, ------------------- Undoubtedly, metta is a good conditioning practice for vipassana -- this is the sort of thing we learn by studying paramattha dhammas. Does your book explain that metta, as a form of adosa, is a conditioned cetasika? That means it is not a series of steps to be carried out while seated on a cushion. ---------------- P: > This evening, I was reading this excellent article about spiritual materialism that James (thank you James) was kind enough to link me to in response to my concerns about my motivations of practice the other day: http://www.sacred- texts.com/bud/tib/cutting.htm Here is a passage from it: "The Lords' defenses are created out of the material of our minds. This material of mind is used by the Lords in such a way as to maintain the basic myth of solidity. In order to see for ourselves how this process works we must examine our own experience. "But how," we might ask, "are we to conduct the examination? What method or tool are we to use?" ------------------ Excellent question! There is no "we" who can use anything ("we" being only a figure of speech) so the answer must be the cetasika, `panna' – right understanding of realities as taught by the Buddha. ---------------- ST: > The method that the Buddha discovered is meditation. -------------- Meaning momentary meditation, of course (what other meditation is there in reality?), in which panna arises to know either a conditioned dhamma or Nibbana. --------------- ST: > He discovered that struggling to find answers did not work. It was only when there were gaps in his struggle that insights came to him. He began to realize that there was a sane, awake quality within him which manifested itself only in the absence of struggle. ---------------- For that reason, he explained (in the Ogha Sutta, for example) that the flood was crossed, `not by struggling and not by standing still.' The middle way between these two is right understanding and the momentary arising of Path Consciousness. ------------------- ST: > So the practice of meditation involves "letting be." " (end of quote) ------------------- But, does it? Depending on how you look at it, `letting be' could be described either as struggling (to let be) or as standing still. It doesn't sound like one of the functions of the Middle Way. In other words, I don't think Right Understanding, Right Thought or any other Right cetasikas carry out the function of `letting be.' (I could be wrong, of course, but I think the author has missed the point (missed the middle way).) -------------------- Ph: > In my case, when I did my beginner's vipassana, a big part of it was getting comfort out of whatever calm I accessed, ------------------ I know what you mean: My old idea was that we, would-be-disciples should be experiencing calm and wisdom just like the true (noble) disciples do. The Buddha described worldlings as habitually having lobha dosa and moha. Why, then, are we so determined to see alobha, adosa and amoha? Are we trying to prove the Buddha wrong? :-) Kind regards, Ken H --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Philip" wrote: > > > Hello Ken, and James, and all. > I've been intending to get back to a question that Ken was kind > enought to ask the other day. 30895 From: Sukinderpal Singh Narula Date: Tue Mar 2, 2004 7:31pm Subject: Hi Robert and Nina, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > Dear Group, > > I have been discussing off-list with Nina and others and have now > decided not to leave dsg but instead take a sabbatical for the next > 5 or 6 months. > The sound of Dhamma is a > profound melody and can be drowned out when surrounded > by prattle and noise. The Dhamma can be devalued > when it is not given and received in a very respectful way. > http://www.vipassana.info/d.htm#Udayi So good to hear this. And thank you Nina for talking Robert into not leaving. I agree that much precious time is wasted in talking about non- dhamma. I notice that I often treat the discussions here almost as a form of entertainment rather than serious reflection, so I tend not to be so discriminative. The objects of Lobha just keep changing. We are supposed to swim against the current, but more often than not it seems that I am flowing with it. And I am not talking about sensual pleasures, but 'dhamma discussions'!! I just realized, reading your forwarded post quoting the Mulapariyaya Sutta, that I am not even this: ""Between the enlightened ones and the 'uninstructed worldling' there is the "good worldling' who is learning and developing correctly: p41 "The Buddha, the kinsman of the sun, speaks of the worldling in a twofold way. One is the worldling blinded by darkness and the other is the worldling noble and good"endquote"" Being involved in Dhamma discussions does not automatically make us the "good worldling". How much in a day, there is any practice, be it ordinary kusala or satipatthana. And when I remind myself of this, there is mana and the urge to "do" something about it. And there the notorious "self" surfaces. Indeed I am very, very far from the goal!! But now I remember Azita ;-) , so patience and courage. And since you Robert, say that you will remain here, I have good cheer! :-) Metta, Sukin 30896 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Tue Mar 2, 2004 8:15pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: clearing up misunderstandings James Reading your post, it's almost as though you value style over content, and assume the same in others too (perhaps it goes with being a champion debater ;-)). James, everyone has their own ideas about what constitutes good writing or speaking style, but I'm sure you'd agree that it would be a shame to allow these personal idiosyncrancies to interfere with one's appreciation of the message, especially a message as vitally important as the very basic aspects of the teaching (nama and rupa, the five aggregates, etc, understanding of the present moment) that form the bulk of Nina's writings. On the question of content, there will of course always be disagreements, but I think it's reasonable for someone in Nina's position to expect specifics to be given, rather than to have to ponder vague and general statements, such as you are inclined to make (an example being your comment here that 'you present dhammas as real entities which persist over time rather than as temporary phenomena with no essence'). I doubt that she is particularly bothered by one person's subjective view, but if what you say is indeed the impression left with the reader, then she would obviously like to know more detail, if for no other reason than to consider appropriate re-wording in future. Jon --- buddhatrue wrote: > Hi Nina, > ... > Hi Nina, ... > I will comment to this issue of your writing however. (Perhaps the > fact that I like Y. Karundasa's writing on the Abhidhamma more than > yours has inspired this line of questioning?) Honestly, your > writing > style doesn't greatly appeal to me because I like more `vibrancy' > in > writing and also philosophical explanations. Your writing is very > plain and packed with details (I thought I had covered this > before??). However, your writing does appeal to many others. > Writing is a matter of taste and there is no one style that is > superior to others. You write in a style that helps to encourage > detachment from the words and the style. That is commendable. I > like fancy words and flowery language; what can I say? ;-)) The > Buddha also used colorful language when the situation warranted it, > and he sometimes used very simple speech. You write in a language > that is not your mother tongue so it is by necessity simplistic. I > am a published writer but that doesn't mean I am an expert about > all > writing. As far as content, I have some disagreements about how > you > present dhammas, rupa especially. In summary, I pretty much agree > with all that Michael says in this regard. I believe you present > dhammas as real entities which persist over time rather than as > temporary phenomena with no essence. 30897 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Mar 2, 2004 9:25pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:misunderstandings cleared up Hi James, op 02-03-2004 12:31 schreef buddhatrue op buddhatrue@y...:> > I am not going to answer these questions in detail. They are too > vast and complicated to try to tackle. Why drudge up the past? N: I understand what you mean. Actually, it seemed to me also rather a lot of work. j: Let me quote from Ven. K. Piyatissa Thera for something to > contemplate: > "All things are momentary. N: I like this quote. J:Honestly, your writing > style doesn't greatly appeal to me .... You write in a style that helps to encourage > detachment from the words and the style. That is commendable. N: You got that right. Spot on! Although we do not agree on many topics, often you sense things surprisingly right, and what you say here is exactly what I have in mind: detachment from the words. That is the essence to me. I am aiming at that, just reminding myself and learning to see right through all words and terms and to come to understand reality, dhamma. J: I like fancy words and flowery language; what can I say? ;-)) The > Buddha also used colorful language when the situation warranted it, > and he sometimes used very simple speech..... As far as content, I have some disagreements about how you present dhammas, rupa especially. N: That is fair enough. Others also have trouble with rupas, I know. However, I think it is always very nice to have exchanges, like I have with Howard. I do not see those as polemics. J: In summary, I pretty much agree > with all that Michael says in this regard. I believe you present > dhammas as real entities which persist over time rather than as > temporary phenomena with no essence. N: Here I do not agree, but I can refer to all the discussions there were on this list with Michael. I like to refer to Jon who clearly explained this matter. Of course disagreements are bound to occur. That is no problem for me. We can quietly and at ease discuss all such topics. There is one matter I hesitantly bring up: I think in the past your speech was not always so gentle. I do not mean, though, at this very moment. When we bring something forward with gentle speech it is always more convincing. If speech is harsh, people become irritated and will not listen anymore. I asked you all those questions, because honestly, it seemed to me that very often you uttered your dismay, and strongly so, about Abhidhamma and the Commentaries as going against the Buddha's teachings. I was always wondering why you spoke like that. I thought that this surely must be because of misunderstandings about what is exactly in the texts. But I am glad that you say that all this is past. It is completely gone! Thus, we can change the heading of this Email: misunderstandings cleared up! Nina. 30898 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Mar 2, 2004 9:25pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Rob K leaving? Dear Azita, Lovely, please go on! I remember I had those notes too. Was it from Susie? O, from Sarah! Nina. op 02-03-2004 13:10 schreef gazita2002 op gazita2002@y...: > > If one does not realise yet that one has wrong understanding, > it is impossible to develop right understanding. 30899 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Mar 2, 2004 9:25pm Subject: Re: [dsg] The powerful tendecy Dear Ken O, op 02-03-2004 12:30 schreef Sarah op sarahdhhk@y...: > It can be. You can ask Lodewijk next time;-) Only sati will know, not the > other person. In truth, I have no doubt there were kusala and akusala > cittas arising for us both during the conversation;-)No need to pinpoint > exactly what citta started the conversation. Impossible to know;-) N: Ken, Lodewijk was telling Sarah that he helps me with the dishes so that I have more time for Dhamma writing. He does not hide his kusala, and then others can have kusala cittas as well. It is a kind of sharing. You can perform this kind of kusala without having to think about it: let me now tell the others. It can happen spontaneously. Thus you see, this dishwashing subject was about kusala. Nina. 30900 From: Date: Tue Mar 2, 2004 10:02pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Rob K leaving? Someone wrote: "If one does not realise yet that one has wrong understanding, it is impossible to develop right understanding." L: Wrong understanding is just desire. Right understanding is just non-desire. The 'dependent arising' shows this; but you are right, most of our desire is hidden. We don't know the half of it. Larry 30901 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Tue Mar 2, 2004 10:43pm Subject: Re: [dsg] (unknown) Rob K Good news indeed! We're glad you've been persuaded to stick around. By all means take a break, but no need to set any fixed time for it! Looking forward to seeing you back on the list sooner rather than later. In the meantime Sarah and I will work on keeping the extraneous noise to background chatter level only, so as to allow the melody of the Dhamma to come through a little more distinctly. Jon --- rjkjp1 wrote: > Dear Group, > > I have been discussing off-list with Nina and others and have now > decided not to leave dsg but instead take a sabbatical for the next > 5 or 6 months. > The sound of Dhamma is a > profound melody and can be drowned out when surrounded > by prattle and noise. The Dhamma can be devalued > when it is not given and received in a very respectful way. > http://www.vipassana.info/d.htm#Udayi > Robertk 30902 From: Sarah Date: Tue Mar 2, 2004 10:43pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Rob K leaving? Hi Azita & Nina, --- nina van gorkom wrote: > Dear Azita, > Lovely, please go on! I remember I had those notes too. Was it from > Susie? > O, from Sarah! .... I remember Alan W mentioning he was putting them on Zolag, but I never checked. Azita, when I visited you all in Maleny, Qld the next year, I gave you copies, I think. Thanks for requoting them - they are just as helpful for me now as all those years back. Here's another one I find very helpful (forget which notes): "Be the understanding person" Metta, Sarah ======= 30903 From: buddhatrue Date: Tue Mar 2, 2004 11:22pm Subject: Re:misunderstandings cleared up Hi Nina and All, Nina: We can quietly and at ease discuss all such topics. There is one matter I hesitantly bring up: I think in the past your speech was not always so gentle. I do not mean, though, at this very moment. When we bring something forward with gentle speech it is always more convincing. If speech is harsh, people become irritated and will not listen anymore. James: I have been exchanging with Sarah and you off-list about this matter of my `harsh' speech. I know that you often stick up for me to others when they complain about my `harsh' speech, and I do appreciate that. So, why is my speech so harsh? Well, to me it really isn't that harsh at all; but you see, I have been conditioned from my upbringing in a very different way than you and most people. I have very rustic, mid-western parents who are not highly educated and they both use EXTREMELY harsh speech. Actually, both my mother and my father hardly speak a sentence that doesn't contain a curse/cuss word! That is, when they are speaking to family and friends. However, they don't always mean something bad by it. Let me give you an example, Here is the most recent e-mail that my father wrote to me, (with the cuss words disguised): james i hope you receave this it will be short .i have sent you 5 e mails with no ressp once.i had to sh*t. hope it did not tahe long.james i nead to move the a t v .whear is the key.if i reseave a responce. i will tell you all the sh*t that is go on. LOL! So, you see, to me my speech is really not that harsh at all compared to what I grew up listening to. If I wrote in this group like I spoke to my parents you would really have a fit! ;-)) However, you will notice that my letters to the Star Kids don't contain any `harsh' speech because I know that they are children. To me, I speak in a harsh way to adults because I have been conditioned to, but I speak a different way to children. To me, when I hear all of these complaints about my `harsh' speech I automatically think that you are being a bunch of babies! LOL! But, I will try my best to work on that and change the conditioning. It won't be easy but I will try. If I continue to upset people I will just leave this group. Nina: I asked you all those questions, because honestly, it seemed to me that very often you uttered your dismay, and strongly so, about Abhidhamma and the Commentaries as going against the Buddha's teachings. I was always wondering why you spoke like that. I thought that this surely must be because of misunderstandings about what is exactly in the texts. James: When it comes to the Abhidhamma and the commentaries to the Abhidhamma I can only go on what I read in this group; I least before I read Y. Karundasa. Honestly, Nina, I am still often dismayed at the way you present the dhamma. I still don't think it is the true teaching of the Buddha. I think it is something else. I don't write about this that much anymore because I have already made my points-- why bring it up again? I will reply to the post by Jon and your questions along these lines later. It will take a lot of work and to research some examples from your writing. I am very busy today with grading papers and, as you can read from my dad's letter, I need to write more often to my parents! ;-)) Metta, James 30904 From: Sarah Date: Wed Mar 3, 2004 1:59am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:misunderstandings cleared up Hi James & Nina, I appreciate your messages under this new subject line and all the sincerity and goodwill involved. Anumodana. James, thank you for your helpful explanation and good intentions too. When you have a moment, I'd be very glad if you'd select a sutta from Brahmanasamyutta to present with your comments. I also need to catch up with Christine and Azita in this section.... Metta and smiles:-), Sarah ===== 30905 From: christine_forsyth Date: Wed Mar 3, 2004 2:34am Subject: Recognizing_the_Dhamma_'Being Unfettered' § 2.4,§ 2.5.,§ 2.6. Dear Group, The section of this article on the fetters (samyojana) is quite large - people often speak of the pervasiveness of the fetters, and their danger. The danger is because? .... they tie one to the rounds of existence - and there is no guarantee that one will be reborn in human form, able to hear the Teachings, in a time when the Teachings of a Buddha are extant. metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- Fetters as Fabrications § 2.4. "There is the case where an uninstructed, run-of-the-mill person... assumes form (the body) to be the self. That assumption is a fabrication. Now what is the cause, what is the origination, what is the birth, what is the coming-into-existence of that fabrication? To an uninstructed, run-of-the-mill person, touched by that which is felt born of contact with ignorance, craving arises. That fabrication is born of that. And that fabrication is inconstant, fabricated, dependently co-arisen. That craving... That feeling... That contact... That ignorance is inconstant, fabricated, dependently co- arisen. It is by knowing & seeing in this way that one without delay puts an end to the (mental) fermentations. "Or he doesn't assume form to be the self, but he assumes the self as possessing form... form as in the self... self as in form. "Now that assumption is a fabrication. What is the cause... of that fabrication? To an uninstructed, run-of-the-mill person, touched by the feeling born of contact with ignorance, craving arises. That fabrication is born of that. And that fabrication is inconstant, fabricated, dependently co-arisen. That craving... That feeling... That contact... That ignorance is inconstant, fabricated, dependently co-arisen. It is by knowing & seeing in this way that one without delay puts an end to the (mental) fermentations. (Similarly with feeling, perception, fabrications, & consciousness.) "Or... he may have a view such as this: "This self is the same as the cosmos. This I will be after death, constant, lasting, eternal, not subject to change." This eternalist view is a fabrication... Or... he may have a view such as this: "I would not be, neither would there be what is mine. I will not be, neither will there be what is mine." This annihilationist view is a fabrication... Or... he may be doubtful & uncertain, having come to no conclusion with regard to the true Dhamma. That doubt, uncertainty, & coming-to-no-conclusion is a fabrication. "What is the cause... of that fabrication? To an uninstructed, run-of- the-mill person, touched by what is felt born of contact with ignorance, craving arises. That fabrication is born of that. And that fabrication is inconstant, fabricated, dependently co-arisen. That craving... That feeling... That contact... That ignorance is inconstant, fabricated, dependently co-arisen. It is by knowing & seeing in this way that one without delay puts an end to the (mental) fermentations." [SN XXII.81] ---------------------- Bowl of water metaphor - Sensual passion, ill will, sloth and drowsiness, restlessness and anxiety, and uncertainty § 2.5. "Imagine a bowl of water mixed with lac, yellow orpiment, indigo, or crimson, such that a man with good eyesight examining the reflection of his face in it would not be able to know or see his face as it actually is. In the same way, when one remains with awareness possessed by sensual passion, overcome with sensual passion, and neither knows nor sees the escape, as it is actually present, from sensual passion once it has arisen, then one neither knows nor sees what is for one's own benefit, or for the benefit of others, or for the benefit of both... "Now imagine a bowl of water heated on a fire, boiling & bubbling over, such that a man with good eyesight examining the reflection of his face in it would not be able to know or see his face as it actually is. In the same way, when one remains with awareness possessed by ill will, overcome with ill will, and neither knows nor sees the escape, as it is actually present, from ill will once it has arisen, then one neither knows nor sees what is for one's own benefit, or for the benefit of others, or for the benefit of both... "Now imagine a bowl of water covered with algae & slime, such that a man with good eyesight examining the reflection of his face in it would not be able to know or see his face as it actually is. In the same way, when one remains with awareness possessed by sloth & drowsiness, overcome with sloth & drowsiness, and neither knows nor sees the escape, as it is actually present, from sloth & drowsiness once it has arisen, then one neither knows nor sees what is for one's own benefit, or for the benefit of others, or for the benefit of both... "Now imagine a bowl of water ruffled by the wind, disturbed, & covered with waves, such that a man with good eyesight examining the reflection of his face in it would not be able to know or see his face as it actually is. In the same way, when one remains with awareness possessed by restlessness & anxiety, overcome with restlessness & anxiety, and neither knows nor sees the escape, as it is actually present, from restlessness & anxiety once it has arisen, then one neither knows nor sees what is for one's own benefit, or for the benefit of others, or for the benefit of both... "Now imagine a bowl of water stirred up, turbid, muddied, & left in the dark, such that a man with good eyesight examining the reflection of his face in it would not be able to know or see his face as it actually is. In the same way, when one remains with awareness possessed by uncertainty, overcome with uncertainty, and neither knows nor sees the escape, as it is actually present, from uncertainty once it has arisen, then one neither knows nor sees what is for one's own benefit, or for the benefit of others, or for the benefit of both..." [SN XLVI.55] ------------------- The fetters as like a debt, a sickness, a prison, slavery, a road through desolate country § 2.6. "Suppose that a man, taking a loan, invests it in his business affairs. His business affairs succeed. He repays his old debts and there is extra left over for maintaining his wife. The thought would occur to him, 'Before, taking a loan, I invested it in my business affairs. Now my business affairs have succeeded. I have repaid my old debts and there is extra left over for maintaining my wife.' Because of that he would experience joy & happiness. "Now suppose that a man falls sick -- in pain & seriously ill. He does not enjoy his meals, and there is no strength in his body. As time passes, he eventually recovers from that sickness. He enjoys his meals and there is strength in his body. The thought would occur to him, 'Before, I was sick... Now I am recovered from that sickness. I enjoy my meals and there is strength in my body.' Because of that he would experience joy & happiness. "Now suppose that a man is bound in prison. As time passes, he eventually is released from that bondage, safe & sound, with no loss of property. The thought would occur to him, 'Before, I was bound in prison. Now I am released from that bondage, safe & sound, with no loss of my property.' Because of that he would experience joy & happiness. "Now suppose that a man is a slave, subject to others, not subject to himself, unable to go where he likes. As time passes, he eventually is released from that slavery, subject to himself, not subject to others, freed, able to go where he likes. The thought would occur to him, 'Before, I was a slave... Now I am released from that slavery, subject to myself, not subject to others, freed, able to go where I like.' Because of that he would experience joy & happiness. "Now suppose that a man, carrying money & goods, is traveling by a road through desolate country. As time passes, he eventually emerges from that desolate country, safe & sound, with no loss of property. The thought would occur to him, 'Before, carrying money & goods, I was traveling by a road through desolate country. Now I have emerged from that desolate country, safe & sound, with no loss of my property.' Because of that he would experience joy & happiness. "In the same way, when these five hindrances are not abandoned in himself, the monk regards it as a debt, a sickness, a prison, slavery, a road through desolate country. But when these five hindrances are abandoned in himself, he regards it as unindebtedness, good health, release from prison, freedom, a place of security." [MN 39] http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/study/recognizing.html#unfettered 30906 From: Philip Date: Wed Mar 3, 2004 2:48am Subject: My wife turned into paramattha dhammas!!! Hello all Another long one to come here. There won't be many of these, as worldly concerns will be catching up with me next week, so please bear with me. But I just had a very important dhamma event that I have to tell you about. I was lying on the living room floor, reading the moha chapter in Abhidhamma in Daily Life. My wife was on the sofa, reading. She got up and went in to the next room. Irea the following sentences: "Visible object is a paramattha dhamma, a reality; it is a kind of rupa which can be directly experienced through the eyes. Through touch hardness can be experienced; this is a kind of rupa which can be directly experienced through the body-sense, it is real. 'Tree' is a concept or idea of which we can think, but it is not a paramattha dhamma, not a reality which can be directly experienced. Visible object and hardness are paramattha dhammas and they can be directly experienced, no matter how one names them." And then, suddenly, I GOT it. I had read many times in the past week or so that the person is not the paramattha dhamma, the person is the conventional truth. I had thought of my darling wife, and predictably, resisted this idea, even while accepting it in theory. And here, suddenly, lying on my back with my wife in the next room, I got it. I understand it deeply, if that's the right word. I got it. You know what I mean. It wasn't as scary as I thought it would have been, because the Buddha didn't tech the truth to scare us - I have faith in that. And then I turned the same light on myself. I was still lying on my back, holding the book up. Ready, I said to my self, you are going to be extinguished. I felt a little like I used to when I was a child, and felt myself falling into sleep, and was unwilling to let go. And I let go. Tried to that is. But I couldn't. The self that had looked at my wife and had that insight was not going anywhere. I sensed it as a kind of clenched energy that was willing to let go. So I clearly saw my wife as rupa nad nama, but my understanding of my self in those terms was left in theory. So then I kind of transported my point of view to the sofa, and imagined I was my wife looking at me as I lay on the floor. And then it was easy to see Philip as nama and rupa, from her point of view. So there is progress there, but I have more evidence and first hand experience of how resistant the self is. My wife came back into the room. I looked at her. She was rupa and nama. I love her so. I adore her. That hadn't changed. She is doing a project on Chinese philophers for her university, and she told me some things about what she had figured out. So I decided to tell her about my insight. A bit warily. How would she react? So I told her, as best as I could. "Of course," she said. "Didn't you know that already?" And then added that as a Japanese that understand comes naturally to her, and exlains her interest in holistic medecine. "But aren't you scared," I asked. "We won't be together eternally. 'Baby you and I'" isn't true. (That's a love song I wrote for her in which we are reincarnated in various lives, still together in different forms) THe thing on the fridge isn't true." (The thing on the fridge if Anguttara Nikaya IV -55, see below) And there was a tender moment. I can't remember how the coversation went. Here is a passage from Nina's "Abhidhamma and Practice" : "When my husband takes my hand, there is, as we say, a ?ehuman contact?f. What are the realities? There is attachment and this is real, we do not have to try to suppress it. There can, in a very natural way, be study with mindfulness of a nama or a rupa. What appears through the body-sense? Not a person, not my husband. Heat or cold, hardness or softness can appear through the body-sense. We do not have to think about it, it can be directly experienced. Through mindfulness we can prove that no person is experienced through the body-sense, that a person does not exist. There is no person, only different namas and rupas appearing one at a time, and they do not stay. Clinging to people brings sorrow; eventually I will have to take leave from my husband, nothing is permanent. Through the development of insight, clinging to the concept of a person who exists can be eradicated." When I read this a few days ago, I was moved. There is such tenderness in it, I feel, but of course that is how I feel it and nothing more. Someone without knowledge of the Buddha's teaching would be horrified by it, probably, and feel it numbingly cold and impersonal. We know otherwise. Compare it with the "thing on the fridge" I referred to: "[The Blessed One said:] "If both husband & wife want to see one another not only in the present life but also in the life to come, they should be in tune [with each other] in conviction, in tune in virtue, in tune in generosity, and in tune in discernment. Then they will see one another not only in the present life but also in the life to come." see http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an04- 055.html It's a comforting notion, but I find it hard to place it in line with the Buddha's other teachings. I almost suspect that it was added later to comfort followers. Not everyone is ready for the truth. As I've said before, I believe comforting concepts are important in Buddhism as conventional truth for those who are starting their journeys towards absolute truths. Anyways, just wanted to tell you about this big dhamma event. This thread might serve as a bit of an unintentional response to James' comment that he wonders if Nina presents the Buddha's teaching in an authentic way. Well, Ch 7 of Abhidhamma in Daily Life certainly does, because reading it triggered an arising of my first direct experience of annata. Well, almost direct. Much more direct than ever before. LOL my wife -let me call her Naomi from now on - wants to get on the computer and is making loud jokes about not existing to try to distract me. Time to go! Sorry, no time for proof reading. Metta, Philip 30907 From: icarofranca Date: Wed Mar 3, 2004 3:11am Subject: Re: My wife turned into paramattha dhammas!!! Dear Philip > LOL my wife -let me call her Naomi from now on - wants to get on > the computer and is making loud jokes about not existing to try to > distract me. Time to go! Sorry, no time for proof reading. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Imaginary wife ? Old Dighamber Jains once postulated that woman were unable to reach Nibbana due the fact that they couldn´t have a soul... But now, following the sound Buddhistic logic: a Non-wife, due the fact that she has a no-soul, has a definite existence not only as a no-Ghoul, a no-Whistler´s Mother, no-mountain, no-Goodman Conditioned-Air apparatus, etc, but as a real being in the world partaking the main caracteristics of the note "wife"( two negative propositions raise up an affirmative one, which is in concordance with Mathematical logic: ~(~A)= A !!!). The non-A proposition is a positive and definite B assertion! So, at all means and senses, you better pay attention to your non-wife, because a non-wife is a wife! (Now pass me the Diamond Sutra!!!) Mettaya, Ícaro 30908 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Wed Mar 3, 2004 6:28am Subject: Re: [dsg] "Develop" what is skillful? (was "abandoning" msg 19836) Philip Sorry for the delay in replying (about par for me, I'm afraid; I'm usually somewhat behind in my replies). Metta is both a particular cetasika and a kind of bhavana. Within the 2-fold classification I mentioned, metta is samatha bhavana: it is kusala performed through the mind-door which, if developed to a high degree, can lead to high states of calm (but it is not insight and does not in and of itself lead to insight). I am not aware of any mention in the ancient texts of metta as a 'warm-up' exercise. Samatha bhavana is not a warm-up for vipassana bhavana, although some may see it that way. Metta is the kusala mental factor of adosa accompanying consciousness when the object of consciousness is a person. So whenever in our life another person is the object of our thinking/consciousness (that is to say, a very large part of our waking day), there is the (theoretical) opportunity for metta and, if it arises, for its development. So, there's no need to wait until one is one the cushion ;-)). If on the other hand it doesn't arise readily in 'real life' where its characteristic and kusala nature can be known, then the chances of being mistaken as to the actual mind-state occurring in 'formal practice' must be high, I would say. Hoping this give the info you're looking for. Happy to discuss further. Jon --- Philip wrote: > ... > Ph: I wonder where metta fits in here. If I recall correctly, in > the abhidhamma it's a cetasika, but in the suttanta is it ever > taught > as a kind of mental development? Here 's a verse from the Metta > sutta: > > > Mettañ ca sabba-lokasmim > Manasam bhavaye aparimanam > Uddham adho ca tiriyanca > Asambadham averam asapattam > > Cultivate an all-embracing mind of love > For all throughout the universe, > In all its height, depth and breadth -- > Love that is untroubled > And beyond hatred or enmity. > > The "bhavaye" must be something like cultivate/develop. But > since > the suffix is different I guess it's referring to a different > practice than bhavana. Could you or someone tell me the difference > between "bhavana" and "bhavaye?" I wish I could throw myself into > Pali study, but I'm already being very lazy about my Japanese. > > Since cultivating the Brahma-Viharas is so central to my > practice, > I'm curious to know if it is a form of bhavana along with samattha > and vipassana. The vipassana book I read (Mindfulness in Plain > English) recommended metta as a warm-up exercise. For me, it's a > practice all of it's own. > > Thanks again. > > Metta, > Philip 30909 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Wed Mar 3, 2004 6:45am Subject: Re: [dsg] The powerful tendecy Ken O I pretty much agree with you, and especially that there will be mixed kusala and akusala when we speak. But I don't think we should get too hung up about this. After all, it's the same with our other everyday actions, too -- eating, walking, working, sleeping. None (or very little) of it is pure kusala, but that's not the point. Another thing to remember is that not all speech that is with akusala should be seen as wrong speech. An example would be exchanging pleasantries as a simple courtesy -- there may be little or no kusala, but it's not one of the kinds of wrong speech for lay persons (nor for monks, when exchanging pleasantries with other monks). So no need to think one should observe silence, or that with silence there'd be more kusala. Jon 30910 From: nidive Date: Wed Mar 3, 2004 6:57am Subject: Re: [dsg] The Benefits of Jhanas Hi Howard, > My question, however, is a more basic one: > Why would a Buddha, or more generally an arahant, being entirely > freed of tanha, want to *avoid* pain? Why would he want to > *escape* from it into an absorptive state? Would that not be > aversion? I think this is an important matter, as > it pertains to exactly what if any limitations there are to > complete liberation". In any existence, wealth is preferred over poverty, beauty is preferred over ugliness, health is preferred over illness, pleasure is preferred over pain. This is evident. This is the order of things as they are. They are agreeable by all. They are not disputed, even by arahats. They are independent of tanha. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/digha/dn26.html "And what constitutes a monk's pleasure? There is the case where a monk -- quite withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful mental qualities -- enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. With the stilling of directed thought & evaluation, he enters & remains in the second jhana: rapture & pleasure born of composure, unification of awareness free from directed thought & evaluation -- internal assurance. With the fading of rapture he remains in equanimity, mindful & alert, and physically sensitive of pleasure. He enters & remains in the third jhana, of which the Noble Ones declare, 'Equanimous & mindful, he has a pleasurable abiding.' With the abandoning of pleasure & pain -- as with the earlier disappearance of elation & distress -- he enters & remains in the fourth jhana: purity of equanimity & mindfulness, neither pleasure nor pain. This constitutes a monk's pleasure. Regards, Swee Boon 30911 From: Michael Beisert Date: Wed Mar 3, 2004 7:23am Subject: Re: [dsg] (unknown) Hello Jon, Jon: In the meantime Sarah and I will work on keeping the extraneous noise to background chatter level only, so as to allow the melody of the Dhamma to come through a little more distinctly. Michael: I wonder what you mean by what you wrote. Does this imply a change in the moderation policy in the list? Metta Michael 30912 From: Date: Wed Mar 3, 2004 2:32am Subject: Re: [dsg] (unknown) Hi, Michael - In a message dated 3/3/04 10:25:33 AM Eastern Standard Time, mbeisert@h... writes: > Jon: > In the meantime Sarah and I will work on keeping the extraneous noise > to background chatter level only, so as to allow the melody of the > Dhamma to come through a little more distinctly. > > Michael: > I wonder what you mean by what you wrote. Does this imply a change in the > moderation policy in the list? > > Metta > Michael ========================= It sounds to me like a light expression of the intention to be watchful and intervene subtly so as to help prevent slight excesses from growing into great excesses. Isn't that a moderator's job? With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 30913 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Mar 3, 2004 7:45am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Are Arahants noticeable different/correction Dear Connie, Here is a text about ariyan women (from my Rupas): Nina. op 03-03-2004 02:28 schreef connie op nichicon@h...: They must have treasured every word he > | said and worshipped every little move he made. Most - actually I > think > | all of them - are said to have paid him the highest honour by > attaining > | some level of enlightenment. > | > > I was thinking of the Itivuttaka, not the AN. 30914 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Mar 3, 2004 7:45am Subject: Re: [dsg] The Benefits of Jhanas Hi Howard, op 02-03-2004 19:55 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: sutta text, Maha Parinibbanasutta: >> 32, where the Buddha says to Ananda: I am old, etc. It is only when he >> > comfortable.> . >> no 1: think of it, no bodily painful feeling either. This was also mentioned >> when the Buddha suffered from pain, and this was the only time without pain. H: I do understand that this would be a means of > avoiding bodily pain for the Buddha. My question, however, is a more basic > one: > Why would a Buddha, or more generally an arahant, being entirely freed of > tanha, > want to *avoid* pain? Why would he want to *escape* from it into an > absorptive state? Would that not be aversion? I think this is an important > matter, as > it pertains to exactly what if any limitations there are to "complete > liberation". N: Sure, complete liberation is complete, no more aversion from pain, no tanha. I would think that it came naturally to the Buddha to abide in fruition consciousness when he did not go around and preach the Dhamma. He did not do it because he had aversion or clinging. The same when he said that his back hurt and he let one of the disciples explain the Dhamma instead of him. He would then lay down in the lion's posture. Do you agree? Nina. 30915 From: Michael Beisert Date: Wed Mar 3, 2004 7:47am Subject: Re: [dsg] (unknown) Hello Howard, Howard: It sounds to me like a light expression of the intention to be watchful and intervene subtly so as to help prevent slight excesses from growing into great excesses. Isn't that a moderator's job? Michael: Depends on what you call 'excesses'. It is always going to be very subjective. What is the job of a moderator anyway? (No need to reply) For my taste this list already has an intense involvement by the moderators. It feels like a class room here. But Jon's message could be read as meaning some change to current procedures and I just want to know what he means. Metta Michael ----- Original Message ----- From: upasaka@a... To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, March 03, 2004 10:32 AM Subject: Re: [dsg] (unknown) Hi, Michael - In a message dated 3/3/04 10:25:33 AM Eastern Standard Time, mbeisert@h... writes: > Jon: > In the meantime Sarah and I will work on keeping the extraneous noise > to background chatter level only, so as to allow the melody of the > Dhamma to come through a little more distinctly. > > Michael: > I wonder what you mean by what you wrote. Does this imply a change in the > moderation policy in the list? > > Metta > Michael ========================= It sounds to me like a light expression of the intention to be watchful and intervene subtly so as to help prevent slight excesses from growing into great excesses. Isn't that a moderator's job? With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 30916 From: icarofranca Date: Wed Mar 3, 2004 7:46am Subject: Re: [dsg] (unknown) Dear Howard: Michael once quoted me that my style of writing has so much "gaiety" ( we are both brazillians and the portuguese word he used was 'brazuca'). I always try to keep a style free of defilements of direct speech against others... and that's not the case with me and you all, for sure! But I must confess you all that some of my interventions could be so noisy in matters so subtile as Satipatthana, Jhana and so on. I give my respects to Jon and Sarah for keeping a high ground on discussions here at DSG, and I will try to keep an equanimity fulcrum between Samatha and Vipassana in my posts! Mettaya, Ícaro 30917 From: Date: Wed Mar 3, 2004 3:26am Subject: Re: [dsg] The Benefits of Jhanas Hi, Nina - In a message dated 3/3/04 10:48:46 AM Eastern Standard Time, nilo@e... writes: > N: Sure, complete liberation is complete, no more aversion from pain, no > tanha. > I would think that it came naturally to the Buddha to abide in fruition > consciousness when he did not go around and preach the Dhamma. He did not do > it because he had aversion or clinging. The same when he said that his back > hurt and he let one of the disciples explain the Dhamma instead of him. He > would then lay down in the lion's posture. > Do you agree? > ======================== Yes - that would make sense. Some writings, however, *sound* like there is aversion. Perhaps what is involved is to purposely obtain rest from pain to make himself more functionally fit to continue with his teaching - pain is debilitating]. So, the decision is not to escape, but a pragmatic one to regenerate himself. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 30918 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Mar 3, 2004 11:23am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: hidden lobha Hi Larry, op 03-03-2004 07:02 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > Someone wrote: "If one does not realise yet that one has wrong > understanding, it is impossible to develop right understanding." > > L: Wrong understanding is just desire. Right understanding is just > non-desire. The 'dependent arising' shows this; but you are right, most > of our desire is hidden. We don't know the half of it. N: Desire accompanies wrong understanding or ditthi. Non-desire accompanies right understanding. It is all hidden. Only direct understanding with sati can know what it is, when it arises. Desire mostly follows seeing, hearing etc. If we think of the thousands of processes occurring within a splitsecond, it can remind us that the moments of desire are countless. After each moment of seeing or reading, mostly desire. Don't we speak in a day? We cling to our speech. Nina. 30919 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Mar 3, 2004 11:23am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:misunderstandings cleared up Dear James, Hurrah! Really glad. You are very well aware of your speech, no doubt about this! I really have confidence in you. op 03-03-2004 08:22 schreef buddhatrue op buddhatrue@y...: .... I have been conditioned > from my upbringing in a very different way N: It is good to know this. Now I understand better. > James: When it comes to the Abhidhamma and the commentaries to the > Abhidhamma I can only go on what I read in this group; I least before > I read Y. Karundasa. Honestly, Nina, I am still often dismayed at > the way you present the dhamma. I still don't think it is the true > teaching of the Buddha. I think it is something else. N: After a long dialogue with Lodewijk today I understand this better. It is OK, and if you like we can deal with a few points later on, at ease. Just a little at a time, otherwise it is too heavy for me with all my other work. But others can help, for example Philip. I can learn from this myself about the way how to present the Abhidhamma. I always learn from other viewpoints. I shall write more to Philip, since he also spoke about this with Naomi. No bad feelings about it at all. Nina. 30920 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Mar 3, 2004 11:23am Subject: Re: [dsg] My wife turned into paramattha dhammas!!! Dear Philip, what a coincidence. I had a long dialogue with Lodewijk about this subject. I had read Sarah's post on the cremation and touching his bone: only hardness. This was just too much for me and I found it extremely painful. I said to Sarah, I am not so far yet. I also found it hard to realize that sadness comes from clinging to self. But just now My eye falls upon a former post of Sarah: Akasa Sutta,In the Sky (1),Translated from the Pali by Nyanaponika > Thera. > > It shows how the feelings on account of what we love, hate, feel good > and > bad about, just pass through our lives like the winds from all > directions. > The people we find so dear will all pass by sooner or later and the > feelings we experience are mere passing winds in samsara. In ignorance > we > will all continue to experience love, heart-break and great loss again > and > again during countless lives until mindfulness and clear comprehension > (sati sampaja~n~na) grow to really understand the cause of dukkha as > expressed in this sutta. > > “Just as in the sky above winds of various kinds are blowing: > Coming from the east or west, blowing from the north or south, > Some carry dust and others not, cold are some and others hot, > Some are fierce and others mild -- their blowing is so different. > So also in this body here, feelings of different kind arise: > The pleasant feelings and the painful and the neutral ones. > But if a monk is ardent and does not neglect > To practice mindfulness and comprehension clear, > The nature of all feelings will he understand, > And having penetrated them, he will be taint-free in this very life. > Mature in knowledge, firm in Dhamma's ways, > When once his life-span ends, his body breaks, > All measure and concept he has transcended.> And here another quote from Visuddhimagga by Sarah; < "Life, person, pleasure, pain - just these alone join in one conscious moment that flicks by. Ceased aggregates of those dead or alive Are all alike, gone never to return...'"Vism, V111 39 We've quote these lines a lot and yet each time I read them, they're a reminder to me of the very shortness of life and all we hold dear, just the present aggregates flicking by already. Nothing else exists but these very temporary, very conditioned, very impermanent khandhas now, without self, core, store or sub-conscious.> But I also learnt from Ven. Dhammadaro that a sotapanna who does not cling to self, died of a broken heart. Could someone help me with the name, I want to write about it. This sounds very human to me. Then Lodewijk cautioned me about the way how to present ultimate realities. True, for Naomi and also for the Thais it comes more naturally, but it is different for many Westerners. Next time more about my dialogue with Lodewijk. This post will be too long. op 03-03-2004 11:48 schreef Philip op plnao@j...:> > "Visible object is a paramattha dhamma, a reality; it is a kind of > rupa which can be directly experienced through the eyes. Nina. 30921 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Mar 3, 2004 0:19pm Subject: Re: [dsg] My wife turned into paramattha dhammas!!! Hi Philip, continuation. op 03-03-2004 11:48 schreef Philip op plnao@j...: A.D.L.:. Visible > object and hardness are paramattha dhammas and they can be directly > experienced, no matter how one names them." Nina: my dialogue with Lodewijk. He cautioned me in the way I present this. L: When you say, there is no Nina, no person, just seeing, hardness, etc. you have to be careful. It will take people away from the Abhidhamma. N: But is it not true that in the ultimate sense there is no person? L: Careful. We live in this world and have to deal with people. We have metta: to persons. We talk about your father's health, and then we should not say, there is no father. We do good deeds, but not to people who are absent. The Buddha spoke to Ananda, to the bhikkhus. He did not say there is no Ananda, no bhikkhus. N: I remember that Ken H and Andrew spoke about this, and that Andrew said that Ken was going too far in maintaining that there are no people. There was also an objection against the word conventional truth. L: There is ultimate truth and conventional truth (sammutti sacca) and both are truth. N: But in daily life it helps me to know that there is no father. When he speaks unpleasant words there is only sound and it is gone immediately. It helps me to cope with problems. Think of the Elephant's Footprint Discourse: the monk hears unpleasant words, but he realizes that there is only sound impinging on the earsense. Satipatthana also helps me with metta: metta is with the citta. If we think of persons we may become partial and then there is no metta. L: But metta for whom? Not for a non-entity, it is for a person. N: This reminds me of Kh. Sujin's book I translated; Lovingkindness (on zolag). Philip is very interested in the brahmaviharas. Her book is very human, down to earth. It is good that people know about this. L: I agree that insight should be developed in daily life, and it does not interrupt what we are doing, such as dishwashing (Lodewijk was just washing a few things in the kitchen while we continued our dialogue). But do not forget that insight is developed very gradually during many lives. N: Yes, we should realize that we are only beginners. We do not really know what ultimate realities, nama and rupa are. We can only think about them. I understand better that James and others may feel put off when we say: there are only nama and rupa. L: It is quite true that there are nama and rupa. However we should not forget the following: the conventional world and the world of ultimate realities should not be confused in a discussion, and one should keep their distinction in mind. It is actually the same world but each seen from a different angle and in a different context. (What does Jon think of this?? we like corrections) N: But you do not mean that we should separate ordinary life from insight. Some people speak about meditation life and daily life. L: Not at all. As said, vipassana does not interfere with our daily activities. A short moment of considering nama or rupa can come in between our activities. N: But I think that each sutta points to ultimate realities and to satipatthana. L: That is quite true. N: Unlike Philip, I find it less difficult to understand that there is no Nina, but as to Lodewijk: very difficult. L: I agree, I think the same. N: I would not find it difficult to touch the bone of a stranger, but, as to the bone of a dear person, O so difficult. Unbearable. We may not be ready to hear: it is just hardness. End dialogue. Philip, quoting from N: Clinging to people brings sorrow; eventually I > will have to take leave from my husband, nothing is permanent. > Through the development of insight, clinging to the concept of a > person who exists can be eradicated." N: Hard to take so long as insight has not arisen, thinking cannot do the job. And even then, hearts can be broken. >PH: "[The Blessed One said:] "If both husband & wife want to see one > another not only in the present life but also in the life to come, > they should be in tune [with each other] in conviction, in tune in > virtue, in tune in generosity, and in tune in discernment. Then they > will see one another not only in the present life but also in the > life to come." > > > It's a comforting notion, but I find it hard to place it in line > with the Buddha's other teachings. I almost suspect that it was added > later to comfort followers. N: Yes, I read it. I do not think anything is added later on. It encourages to sila, generosity and panna. PH:Not everyone is ready for the truth. As > I've said before, I believe comforting concepts are important in > Buddhism as conventional truth for those who are starting their > journeys towards absolute truths. N: I am glad you say this. Absolute truths are there arising and falling away, but it is a long journey to realize them, to really be convinced of them. Doubt is bound to arise, and this is only eradicated at the moment of enlightenment. Nina. 30922 From: Jeffrey Brooks Date: Wed Mar 3, 2004 9:29am Subject: Re: Htoo's comments on ''Common Misconceptions of Jhana'' by Jeff Brooks Hello Sarah, and thank-you for relating such a simple and quaint devotional story. It seems all religions have these simple stories to build faith in the simple folk. Very good. Kindest regards, Jeff Brooks In a message dated 3/2/04 2:39:03 AM, dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com writes: << .... S: However, I think that when one reads the Tipitaka, it’s immediately apparent that ‘his philosophy and practice’ were quite outside any constraints, especially with regard to the teaching on anatta. .... S: The question is whether there is any understanding of the ‘Buddhist concept of nibbana’ of any kind for those who have not begun to develop satipatthana. Even then, it can only be be known and understood at the stage of stream-entry. Recently Christine and Victor posted the well-known ‘Fire Sermon’. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/study/recognizing.html#dispassion Christine wrote: ..... >Bhikkhu Bodhi calls it 'Burning' and has a note about its origination, which is below: BB: "This sutta, often called "The Fire Sermon", is the third discourse of the Buddha as recorded in the narrative of his ministry at Vin I 34-35. According to this source, the thousand bhikkus were former jatila (matted-hair) ascetics under the leadership of the three Kassapa brothers. The Buddha had converted them by a series of miracles, after which he preached the present sermon. The sermon gains special meaning from the fact that before their conversion these ascetics had been devoted to the fire sacrifice. The full account is at Vin I 24-34; see Naanamoli, 'Life of the Buddha', pp. 54-60, 64-69. .... I followed the reference, Chris. The leader and guide of the brothers was Kassapa of Uruvela, highly regarded for his special powers and enlightened status no doubt. 30923 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Wed Mar 3, 2004 2:27pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Classroom rules Michael Well first, there'll be a test every Friday to see who'se been paying attention to my posts and reading up the Guidelines. Anyone who fails the test will have to stand in the corner without posting privileges for 24 hours. No, seriously, no change in policy, just as Howard says a little more skill in implementing the existing policy. Absolutely nothing that would be likely to affect a well-behaved student like you, Michael;-)) Jon --- Michael Beisert wrote: > Hello Howard, > > Howard: > It sounds to me like a light expression of the intention to be > watchful and intervene subtly so as to help prevent slight excesses > from growing into > great excesses. Isn't that a moderator's job? > > Michael: > Depends on what you call 'excesses'. It is always going to be very > subjective. What is the job of a moderator anyway? (No need to > reply) For my taste this list already has an intense involvement by > the moderators. It feels like a class room here. But Jon's message > could be read as meaning some change to current procedures and I > just want to know what he means. > > Metta > Michael 30924 From: Date: Wed Mar 3, 2004 3:31pm Subject: Re: [dsg] (unknown) Hi, Icaro - In a message dated 3/3/2004 10:46:16 AM Eastern Standard Time, icarofranca@y... writes: > > Dear Howard: > > Michael once quoted me that my style of writing has so > much "gaiety" ( we are both brazillians and the portuguese word he > used was 'brazuca'). I always try to keep a style free of defilements > of direct speech against others... and that's not the case with me > and you all, for sure! > But I must confess you all that some of my interventions could be > so noisy in matters so subtile as Satipatthana, Jhana and so on. I > give my respects to Jon and Sarah for keeping a high ground on > discussions here at DSG, and I will try to keep an > equanimity fulcrum > between Samatha and Vipassana in my posts! > > Mettaya, Ícaro ========================== In my opinion, a joyful exhuberance is always welcome!! It is good to smile broadly snd to laugh with gusto. I'm quite willing to wait for the Mona Lisa smile of an arahant, and meanwhile I'll enjoy a hearty belly laugh whenever possible! ;-) With joyous metta, Howard 30925 From: Date: Wed Mar 3, 2004 4:19pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: hidden lobha L: "Wrong understanding is just desire." Hi Nina, I'm thinking of the dependent arising formula. Sankhara arises twice, first as sankhara, then as craving. Ignorance conditions craving (sankhara). Craving conditions clinging. Clinging is ignorance (clinging to self etc.); clinging is also accumulations of craving. So, the accumulation of craving is ignorance. Wrong understanding is only desire. Ignorance conditions desire, desire conditions ignorance. This is the relationship between accumulations and javana cittas. What we desire is feeling. It is only logical if wrong understanding is desire, then right understanding is non-desire. Larry 30926 From: gazita2002 Date: Wed Mar 3, 2004 10:13pm Subject: : Rob K leaving?&Bangkok Dear Sarah and Nina, Yes, they are on Zolag - I think it was Phillip who pointed that out. I'm not so surprised that they are your handiwork, Sarah. They are such good quotes. It's unfortunate that you can't make Bkk again. I kinda say that selfishly bec, I know that if there is a few of us in T'land at the one time, we get more Achan time; and i'll miss you both. If there is anyone else out there who will be in Bkk towards end of April [I'll be there from Apl 14-25], I would love to meet up with you, and maybe we can get more Achan Sujin time. More quotes: At the moment of seeing visible object as visible object, there is no attractiveness in visible object. The way to know the present moment is to begin to know this moment now. Learn to give without strings attached. We have bad opinions of others, but do we like others to have bad opinions of us. With developed right understanding, one knows everything one knew before, but one knows something one didn't know before one will understand more about hearing and thinking in addition to hearing and thinking. Patience, courage and good cheer, Azita. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > Hi Azita & Nina, > > --- nina van gorkom wrote: > Dear Azita, > > Lovely, please go on! I remember I had those notes too. Was it from > > Susie? > > O, from Sarah! > .... > I remember Alan W mentioning he was putting them on Zolag, but I never > checked. Azita, when I visited you all in Maleny, Qld the next year, I > gave you copies, I think. Thanks for requoting them - they are just as > helpful for me now as all those years back. > > Here's another one I find very helpful (forget which notes): > > "Be the understanding person" > > Metta, > > Sarah > ======= > > 30927 From: Sarah Date: Wed Mar 3, 2004 10:19pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Htoo's comments on ''Common Misconceptions of Jhana'' by Jeff Brooks Hi Jeff, --- Jeffrey Brooks wrote: > Hello Sarah, and thank-you for relating such a simple > and quaint devotional story. It seems all religions > have these simple stories to build faith in the simple > folk. Very good. .... This ‘quaint devotional story’ takes up over 18 pages in the Mahavagga, vol 1V of the PTS translation by I.B. Horner of the Vinaya which I’m looking at. It’s really fascinating for me because we may think that we have a difficult time in being able to hear about the truths of the burning namas and rupas, burning with lust, with hate and with delusion towards them, but in this story, recited with the rest of the Vinaya by the 500 key arahants at the First Council, we learn about just how very hard it was for Uruvela Kassapa to hear the truth. I can’t do it justice in a few words. Not only did the Buddha have to perform a series of psychic and supernatural activities to convince him, but he also Kassapa had to see Sakka, lord of the devas, Brahma Sahampati and others paying respect and performing services for the Buddha. Only then could he appreciate the Buddha’s words and take refuge. Jeff, you suggest that I don’t ask Htoo for references as I do you. I can see this may seem unfair. Actually, I do ask Htoo for them from time to time. It’s up to him, as it is to you, how or whether he responds. Actually I hadn’t responded to him on his post which started this thread, but at a glance, I admit I agreed with his main thrust and the details. If I wished to check them carefully (and given sufficient time, I’d find it helpful to do so), I’d check one of the following sources before asking for further references from him. You may find these helpful too: 1. Nina’s book ‘Cetasikas’ for details about all the mental factors including, vitakka, vicara, passaddhi, ekaggata and so on. http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html (hard copy highly recommended from Amazon I believe) 2. ‘Abhidhammattha Sangha’ for fine details about all the numbers and various cittas and straight Abhidhamma he refers to. I used B.Bodhi’s translation ‘A Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma’ This includes various useful charts by which you could check the information at a glance, For online, use Narada’s” http://zencomp.com/greatwisdom/ebud/abhisgho/abhis00.htm 3. Nina’s book ‘Abhidhamma in Daily Life’ for relatively easy to read Abhidhamma basics and a bit more: http://www.abhidhamma.org/ ***** I know you’re busy, so I’d be happy to help double check any of his or anyone else’s details if you’d indicate exactly which ones you’re unhappy with. It would force me to do this homework, but just a little at a time, please. You ‘re welcome to change the subject heading too when you next reply as you like;-) Metta, Sarah ===== 30928 From: Eznir Date: Wed Mar 3, 2004 11:54pm Subject: [dsg] Re: clearing up misunderstandings Dear Sarah, S: The point I think is that they (the khandhas) are conditioned. No self to direct them. E: I try not to think of the word `direct' in terms of `a self'. One would come across many such words and phrases in the suttas that signify in this way, ie., "one tries…..", "One's right effort…..", "directed thinking…..", "directing the mind……", "one develops…." etc…etc. You are right, there is no self to direct them, feeling feels, perception perceives, intention intends, contact the meeting point, attention the director, hiri & ottappa the policeman, directed thinking & pondering are the evaluaters, wisdom knows and so on. All of this are cetasikas that determine consciousness. When the right ones are present at the right time complementing each other, consciousness gets elevated to the noble status of an Arahant! To give an illustration of `self': This `self' is like a parasite, riding piggy-back(clinging), on one's 5-aggregates, hence 5-clinging-aggregates. It is said to be shaken off only when one becomes an Arahant. Till then one carries it along. A Trainee(sekha) directs actions in such a way that this parasite loses its grip, gradually, in 4 stages. A puthujjana doesn't see this; so when ever the parasite pulls the strings the puthujjana dances to the tune! If not for this parasite, the 5-aggregates will persist and break up like the Arahant's. But because of this parasite new kamma is performed that keeps the aggregates ticking along in sansara! As you rightly stated above, these 5-aggregates are conditioned/compounded(sankhata dhamma). But they are also that which determines the determined, fabrications that fabricate, conditions the conditioned, ie., sankhara. This panchaupadanskandha is like a double edged sword. An idea of self depends upon the 5-aggregates, hence 5-clinging-aggregates(sankhara). But this idea of self is identified with these 5-aggregates(sankhata dhamma). Sankhara and Sankhata Dhamma go in pairs. In paticcasamuppada there are 12 such pairs. Each is the sankhara to the following item in turn. But, there are other items, like ignorance, which is sankhara at any time to all of those items. S: I think the key is understanding again rather than intention. E: I see it this way, understanding(as in Right Understanding/View) is just one of the 8 noble factors, intention is the second and there are 6 other factors. Right understanding/view is a passive state of affairs but right intention has the dynamism that propels one to Nibbana. Both together constitute Wisdom that's Right in the noble 8- fold path! There's more to say here. The point is, in discussions of this sort, each factor in the Dhamma, like intention, understanding or even self, cannot be understood in total apart from the rest of the Dhamma factors in isolation! All these factors are so intricately connected that discussing one involves another! Metta eznir --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > Hi Eznir & Howard, > > --- Eznir wrote: > Dear Sarah, > > I posted a message to the effect that the Dhamma is subjective. Your > > sentiments here confirms this further. > .... > S:I think I understand you as I've followed your discussions with Howard > with interest. In your well-written post (30584) to Howard, I agreed with > most your comments and liked your quotes. > > One question. You wrote: > .... > E:>And how does one construct this path? Through intentions.< > ..... > S:This reminded me of our discussion which I've been meaning to get back > to. > ..... > E: >How is it that intentions could be directed is the question. > > Lord Buddha in the Khajjaniya Sutta(Chewed Up) in SN-XXII.79 says: > > And what, monks, do you say are determinations(sankhára)? 'They > determine the determined': that, monks, is why they are > called 'determinations'. > <...> > (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn22-079.html) > > Expounded here are the function of Sankhára, how the 5-holding- > aggregates, of which we are burdened with, are determined. This is to > say a thing is what it is determined for. > .... > S: The point I think is that they (the khandhas) are conditioned. No self > to direct them. > .... > E:<...> > How does one purify the mind? Fill it up with > Wholesome/skillful(kusala) states. How? By intending bodily, verbally > and mentally. What does one intend? That which is wholesome(37- > enlightenment factors) and conducive to Nibbana. Selection process? > Wise attention. > .... > S:This is good. Ken O and I are discussing wise attention too. I think the > key is understanding again rather than intention. > .... > E:So, given here, in brief, is the process by which this `directing the > mind' towards Nibbana is achieved. It's easier said than done though!! > ... > S:Why so? Anatta;-) > .... > > E:Read Dvedavitakka Sutta MN-19 to see how Lord Buddha directed his > mind to sort two types of thoughts, the kusala and akusala. > http://www.metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/2Majjhima- > > Nikaya/Majjhima1/019-dvedhavitakka-sutta-e1.htm > .... > S:Good suttas, all to be read in the light of satipatthana I think. I'll > be glad to hear any further comments you have to share, Eznir. > > Howard, on the meaning of vinnana in D.O. I think it refers to the seeing, > hearing and so on - results of kamma, thus conditioned by sankhara (in > this case referring to kammic formations. Don't confuse it with ~nana or > wisdom or sati (awareness). > > From `The Discourse on Right View' (The Sammaditthi Sutta and its > Commentary),Translated from the Pali by Bhikkhu Ñanamoli, Edited and > Revised by Bhikkhu Bodhi: > > "And what is consciousness, what is the origin of consciousness, what is > the cessation of consciousness, what is the way leading to the cessation > of consciousness? There are these six classes of consciousness: > eye-consciousness, ear-consciousness, nose-consciousness, > tongue-consciousness, body-consciousness, mind-consciousness. With the > arising of formations there is the arising of consciousness." > ***** > The commentary adds: > "In the section on consciousness, eye-consciousness (cakkhuvi~n~naa.na) is > consciousness in the eye or consciousness born from the eye. so also with > ear-, nose-. tongue-, and body consciousness. but with the other one, i.e > mind-consciousness (manovi~n~naa.na), mind itself is consciousness. This > is a designation for the resultant consciousness of the three (munane) > planes of existence except for the two groups of fiefold consciousness. > > With the arising of formations (sa'nkhaarasamudayaa): but here the arising > of consciousness should be understood to occur with the arising of > formations according to the method stated in the Visuddhimagga, as to > which formation is a condition for which consciousness (XV11, 175- 185)." > ***** > Would you agree with this? > > Metta, > > Sarah > ===== > > > 30929 From: Sarah Date: Thu Mar 4, 2004 0:30am Subject: Learning the Brazilian Brazuca steps Hi Icaro (& Howard), I agree with Howard. Your ‘joyful exuberance’ and ‘brazuca’ are always most welcome;-) ;-) .... --- icarofranca wrote: > Dear Howard: > I:> Michael once quoted me that my style of writing has so > much "gaiety" ( we are both brazillians and the portuguese word he > used was 'brazuca'). I always try to keep a style free of defilements > of direct speech against others... and that's not the case with me > and you all, for sure! ..... S:From the outset when you first joined us, I noticed how caring your speech was in this regard - always leading to harmony rather than disharmony and very natural (even if some of it is too high over our heads;-). .... I:> But I must confess you all that some of my interventions could be > so noisy in matters so subtile as Satipatthana, Jhana and so on. I > give my respects to Jon and Sarah for keeping a high ground on > discussions here at DSG, .... S:‘You are the champi-o-nnnn’;-) Sometimes it feels as high as the top of Uggasena’s sixty foot pole, precariously balancing in the breeze. Still, he became an arahant at the top of his pole, so that’s as good a time as any to develop insight. And I remembered Philip’s ‘Got It’ this morning as I did a free handstand for five seconds for the first time in this life - not quite a triple backwards somersault but namas and rupas just the same. (See, I’m learning to do the brazuca too;-) .... I:>and I will try to keep an equanimity fulcrum > between Samatha and Vipassana in my posts! .... S: ;-) An equanimity fulcrum balancing act too. Howard, a little more seriously to you;-) The way I see it is if we try to force a change of behaviour unnaturally it’s a kind of wrong view, an example of silabbataparimasa which Christine was discussing. I’m sure many of us have gone through phases of being very ‘holy’ as my family used to describe mine when there was obviously a clinging to the self being a certain way (quiet, calm, non-stop metta and so on) or thinking that changing the character (eg not smiling or laughing or offering pleasantries) will lead to more kusala. As I see it, it just leads to more wrong view and clinging to a self we take so seriously. This doesn’t mean not being careful with speech (as Icaro or you certainly are), but living easily and naturally. When I first visited Nina in Holland, it was this natural living that struck me. She’d jog in the park, read magazines, cook delicious food and we’ve always laughed a lot together. Both she and Lodevijk have a good sense of humour, never at the expense of anyone else. Later I’d stay with K.Sujin for weeks, sharing her room and again observe how she’d not only read suttas to prepare for her weekly lecures, but answer the phone frequently, watch the news on TV, occasionally play scrabble with her sister, supervise the maid, discuss domestic matters, or go shopping with her father and help him select fruit in the market and so on. Her lifestyle was very, very ordinary, but the dhamma was always present. There was never any indication that another time or place or reality would be more appropriate in anyway for panna (wisdom) to arise. Actually, it was on the very first day I first met her that I had another of those Great Non-Pampering experiences. This one was on an earlier trip in Sri Lanka with Nina too. (Howard, you may have heard it, but I’ll repeat it for newercomers here). I’d been a super-strict vegetarian for a few years, right through university and beyond. We sat down at a table of delicious curries and I started enquiring about the ingredients of the soup and explaining what I could and couldn’t eat. I was shocked when K.Sujin just seemed to ignore these concerns -- which of course came well wrapped up in a long list of humane justifications -- and put some soup in my bowl and then a very little of every kind of food on my plate. Ever so sweetly told me to eat it out of consideration for our hostess. My family were so shocked at how ‘normal’ I was when I returned to England, eating the same as everyone else and no longer so ‘holy’, but laughing about the 'holy image' instead;-). With metta and brazuca to you both, Sarah ===== 30930 From: Ken O Date: Thu Mar 4, 2004 1:11am Subject: Re: [dsg] Learning the Brazilian Brazuca steps Hi Sarah It always good to be natural, but it is also good to be careful what we think as natural as kusala. There is no point forcing one to be holy because there is no way one going to be holy just because we want it to be this way or that way (Ahhh Anatta!). It has to be natural. But i say we say reading newpaper are just nama and rupas then you are not reading newspaper or watching TV. Why we cannot be both doing satipatthana while the mental is absorbed with a mental object conditioned by concepts. It is exclusive, one object at a time. So sometimes I feel we are kidding ourselves that we thinking reading newspaper and watching TV, playing games can be kusala. There may be moments when we reflect on the stories on it (where kusala may arise), but why read it in the first place. The world goes on its own way, one way or another. Then again other types of activites like washing dishes and sweeping the floor, gardening, jogging are ok because satipatthana works in such activities, IMHO. I am not stopping anyone to do such leisure entertainment because we are mostly worldings conditioned by lobha. Dont unnecassary stop oneself because it can be detrimental and this create a false sense of holiness as describe by you. I do watch TVs shows a lot of time and also newspapers, books, magazines but I like to clarify that it is not satipatthana most of the time for such activities even though at times we do reflect on it. I know you will have many comments and I waiting though ;-). Ken O 30931 From: Sarah Date: Thu Mar 4, 2004 1:17am Subject: Re: [dsg] "Develop" what is skillful? (was "abandoning" msg 19836) Hi Philip, Forget the gentle breeze, your posts and goodwill are more like gold-dust being sprinkled around here;-) I hope Naomi, your smart non-wife of paramattha dhammas can pop in too. (Naomi, pls bring a family pic and any ‘kotodama’ words of wisdom with you;-)). Back to metta - I know you have your own juggling acts to perform at present, but when you have time, there is a lot on this subject in U.P. Any comments appreciated. I didn’t know K.Sujin’s book ‘Metta’ was on line. It’s a gem. From the first paragraph: “At such moments [of metta] the citta is gentle, there is no conceit, maana, which is the condition for asserting oneself, for showing one’s own importance and for disparaging others.” --- Philip wrote: > Here 's a verse from the Metta sutta: > > > Metta~n ca sabba-lokasmim > Manasam bhavaye aparimanam > Uddham adho ca tiriyanca > Asambadham averam asapattam > > Cultivate an all-embracing mind of love > For all throughout the universe, > In all its height, depth and breadth -- > Love that is untroubled > And beyond hatred or enmity. > > The "bhavaye" must be something like cultivate/develop. But since > the suffix is different I guess it's referring to a different > practice than bhavana. .... Let me quote a little from the commentary on this verse (Paramatthajotikaa, comy on the Minor Readings, PTS, Loving Kindness Discourse, stanza8): “Herein, he fattens (mejjati) and tends (taayati), thus he is a friend (mitta); the meaning is that by his inclination to welfare he acts as a lubricant (siniyhati) and protects from harm’s coming. The state of a friend (mittassa bhaavo) is love (mettaa=loving kindness). For all (sabba-): unreservedly for. the world (lokasmi’m): the world of creatures. Thought (maanasa’m): a [state of] being that is in the mind (manasi bhava’m); for that is said because it is asociated with cognizance. He would maintain (bhaavaye): would increase. It has no measure (bound), thus it is [done] unboundedly (aparimaa.na’m); it is stated thus as an object consisting of measureless [numbers of] creatures.” ***** I’ve quoted other parts before, maybe in UP, I forget. I think Jon answered your other questions. The sutta on your fridge - You reminded me that after Jon and I got married, Ven Saddhatissa conducted a nice little blessing and ceremony (in London). He recited the same sutta and another one from AN on the different kinds of marriages (1V,53). We have no idea about the future, but they’re a reminder for me about this moment and the value of the development of metta and all good states in and outside the home. Metta and look forward to more gold-dust posts;-) Sarah ===== 30932 From: christine_forsyth Date: Thu Mar 4, 2004 1:45am Subject: Stream Entry Hello all, A few quotes and links on Stream Entry. I've suggested this as one of the topics for the next Cooran Dhamma weekend (when we get a definite date, Andrew :-)) ... so I would love to hear anyone's quotes or opinions. I wonder, does a person know with certainty if he/she has 'entered the Stream'? Or can one be deluded? DhammaStudyGroup Useful Posts under 'S': http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/ Samyutta Nikaaya V The Great Book (Mahaavagga)55 Sotaapattisamyutta Bhikkhu Bodhi. Wisdom edition. As well as: "This enlightenment experience, known as stream entry (sotapatti), is the first of four progressive stages of Awakening, each of which entails the irreversible shedding or weakening of some of the fetters (samyojana), the manifestations of ignorance that bind a person to the cycle of birth and death. Stream entry marks an unprecedented and radical turning point both in the practitioner's current life and in the entirety of his or her long journey in samsara. For it is at this point that any lingering doubts about the truth of the Buddha's teachings fall away; it is at this point that any belief in the purifying efficacy of rites and rituals evaporates; and it is at this point that the long-cherished notion of an abiding personal "self" disappears. The stream-enterer is said to be assured of no more than seven future rebirths (all of them favorable) before eventually attaining full Awakening. But full Awakening is still a long way off." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/theravada.html "Stream entry is the first of the four levels of Awakening. It gains its name from the fact that a person who has attained this level has entered the "stream" that flows inevitably to nibbana. He/she is guaranteed to achieve full Awakening within seven lifetimes at most, and in the interim will not be reborn in any of the lower realms. The passages presented here, organized around the above four factors, treat questions of interest to all meditators, regardless of whether their practice aims all the way to Awakening: How can you recognize a trustworthy teacher? How can you tell the true Dhamma from counterfeit Dhamma? What are the rewards that come from listening to the Dhamma? Which questions should you ask yourself in the course of the practice? What kind of practice qualifies as being in accordance with the Dhamma? What kind of qualities do you need to develop to benefit most from your practice? " http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/study/stream.html Nyanatiloka's Buddhist Dictionary under Sotaapanna, Sotaapannassa Angaani, Sotaapatti, Sotaapattiyanga http://www.budsas.org/ebud/bud-dict/dic_idx.htm metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- 30933 From: christine_forsyth Date: Thu Mar 4, 2004 2:03am Subject: Recognizing_the_Dhamma_'Being Unfettered' § 2.7 Dear Group, I liked this one :-) - esp. the bit about the frogs, turtles serpents and crocodiles going to heaven if the water ritual worked. Worth taking your best shot, I reckon. :-) How much harder not to do any evil kamma... metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- § 2.7. [Punnika:] I'm a water-carrier, cold, always going down to the water from fear of my mistresses' beatings, harassed by their anger & words. But you, Brahman, what do you fear that you're always going down to the water with shivering limbs, feeling great cold? [The Brahman:] Punnika, surely you know. You're asking one doing skillful kamma & warding off evil. Whoever, young or old, does evil kamma is, through water ablution, from evil kamma set free. [Punnika:] Who taught you this -- the ignorant to the ignorant -- 'One, through water ablution, is from evil kamma set free?' In that case, they'd all go to heaven: all the frogs, turtles, serpents, crocodiles, & anything else that lives in the water. Sheep-butchers, pork-butchers, fishermen, trappers, thieves, executioners, & any other evil doers, would, through water ablution, be from evil kamma set free. If these rivers could carry off the evil kamma you've done in the past, they'd carry off your merit as well, and then you'd be completely left out. Whatever it is that you fear, that you're always going down to the water, don't do it. Don't let the cold hurt your skin." [The Brahman:] I've been following the miserable path, good lady, and now you've brought me back to the noble. I give you this robe for water-ablution. [Punnika:] Let the robe be yours. I don't need it. If you're afraid of pain, if you dislike pain, then don't do any evil kamma, in open, in secret. But if you do or will do any evil kamma, you'll gain no freedom from pain, even if you fly up & hurry away. If you're afraid of pain, if you dislike pain, go to the Awakened One for refuge, go to the Dhamma & Sangha. Take on the precepts: That will lead to your liberation. [Thig XII] 30934 From: Sarah Date: Thu Mar 4, 2004 2:08am Subject: Re: [dsg] My wife turned into paramattha dhammas!!! Dear Nina, --- nina van gorkom wrote: > Dear Philip, > what a coincidence. I had a long dialogue with Lodewijk about this > subject. > I had read Sarah's post on the cremation and touching his bone: only > hardness. This was just too much for me and I found it extremely > painful. I > said to Sarah, I am not so far yet. I also found it hard to realize that > sadness comes from clinging to self. .... S: I’d like to add a little more. As you know when K.Sujin makes these comments, they are made so gently and with so much metta that one listens or responds in a way that wouldn’t be possible if others were to say the same words. She saw me gazing at the small bones laid out in a tray and understood the strong attachment I still felt for a person, AlanD. She wished to help me, so she gently helped me lift my hand to touch the bones as she reminded me it was just hardness being experienced. It doesn’t mean there’s any rule or any special experience we should have at such a time. Still, I think one reason we find the idea painful is because we think so much about how hard this or that will be when really the dhamma IS our refuge and the sadness and tears pass by like everything else. From Christine’s post: "In the same way, when these five hindrances are not abandoned in himself, the monk regards it as a debt, a sickness, a prison, slavery, a road through desolate country. But when these five hindrances are abandoned in himself, he regards it as unindebtedness, good health, release from prison, freedom, a place of security." [MN 39] http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/study/recognizing.html#unfettered ***** S: Of course we have to hear the same truths over and over again. We don’t like to be reminded about the clinging to self, especially when we feel sad. Like the passage Philip quoted from ADL about a person not existing - it’s never easy to hear. Sometimes we think we can’t take it, like you said, but then the next minute we’re explaining it to others as you do;-). I remember at AlanD’s funeral feeling ‘liberated’ after touching the bones and hearing the dhamma reminders. Only namas and rupas. Then the very next day we travelled in a boat out of Bangkok with the ashes. I felt honoured to hold the urn and clasped them closely forgetting all the reminders from the previous day. Everyone was scattering a trail of brightly coloured flower petals into the water in a long train and I was lost in thought. K.Sujin again came up to me and told me to throw the urn of ashes into the water too. Again, I was momentarily shocked, but followed the instruction and then listened as she talked about attachment, seeing, visible object and the usuals. It wasn’t sad at all;-) Actually it was a very special occasion. We shouldn’t underestimate the power of the dhamma when there’s wise reflection. It truly is a refuge and with good friends to help us, we can manage to get through any difficulties. ..... N: > But I also learnt from Ven. Dhammadaro that a sotapanna who does not > cling > to self, died of a broken heart. Could someone help me with the name, I > want > to write about it. This sounds very human to me. .... S: I think you’re thinking of Sumanaa, one of Anathapindika’s daughters. From Dict of PPN under Anathapindika: ‘Sumaná obtained the Second Fruit of the Path, but remained unmarried. Overwhelmed with disappointment because of her failure in finding a husband, she refused to eat and died; she was reborn in Tusita (DhA.i.128f).’ .... N: > Then Lodewijk cautioned me about the way how to present ultimate > realities. > True, for Naomi and also for the Thais it comes more naturally, but it > is > different for many Westerners. .... S: I’m not sure I agree - I think wrong view and ignorance have the same characteristics anywhere. Naomi must be most unusual. I’ve heard visitors suggest it’s easier for Thais to K.Sujin and she always shakes her head, I think;-). ... N: > Next time more about my dialogue with Lodewijk. This post will be too > long. ... S: I look forward to more washing-up discussions. I always appreciate Lodewijk’s input here and I agree that sometimes what we say or write may sound too direct or shocking. (You see, James, we all have to learn - I had no idea my comments might cause distress - we just do our best and try to learn as you say). Let me finish with a couple more brief extracts from the great suttas Chris posted: .... Fetters as Fabrications § 2.4. "There is the case where an uninstructed, run-of-the-mill person... assumes form (the body) to be the self. That assumption is a fabrication. Now what is the cause, what is the origination, what is the birth, what is the coming-into-existence of that fabrication? To an uninstructed, run-of-the-mill person, touched by that which is felt born of contact with ignorance, craving arises.....” [SN XXII.81] ***** "Now imagine a bowl of water stirred up, turbid, muddied, & left in the dark, such that a man with good eyesight examining the reflection of his face in it would not be able to know or see his face as it actually is. In the same way, when one remains with awareness possessed by uncertainty, overcome with uncertainty, and neither knows nor sees the escape, as it is actually present, from uncertainty once it has arisen, then one neither knows nor sees what is for one's own benefit, or for the benefit of others, or for the benefit of both..." [SN XLVI.55] **** Metta, Sarah p.s Chris - well-done keeping up Victor's corner in his absence;-) ======= 30935 From: Philip Date: Thu Mar 4, 2004 4:07am Subject: Re: [dsg] "Develop" what is skillful? (was "abandoning" msg 19836) ?@ ?@Hi Sarah, and all Thanks for geting back about that "bhavaye" in the Metta Sutta. Still not really clear about whether it's an imperative or a declarative, or what, but that's not important. I have to be aware of a tendency to want to justify the way I practice brahma-viharas. > Back to metta - I know you have your own juggling acts to perform at > present, but when you have time, there is a lot on this subject in U.P. > Any comments appreciated. I didn't know K.Sujin's book `Metta?Ewas on > line. It's a gem. From the first paragraph: "At such moments [of metta] > the citta is gentle, there is no conceit, maana, which is the condition > for asserting oneself, for showing one's own importance and for > disparaging others.?E> Ph: I've bookmarked it, and because of my interest in the topic, am tempted to get to it right away. But I will read ABL first. A balancing act, indeed. I am still completely caught up in Nina's books. Finished the one on Paramis, and will now reread it to absorb it properly. Am still waking up in the middle of the night and reading . Reminds me of when I was a kid, reading Hardy Boys mysteries under the sheets with a flashlight. Of course, it's the Abhidhamma that's got me hooked. But what about those worldly concerns? I've just finished my two days off, and was intending to work on rewrites for some children's picture book stories I want to sell, but didn't go anywhere near them, or my Japanese study materials. I am absolutely caught up in the Abhidhamma. I even kept thinking about it during my yoga class today! But not, alas, by staying open to awareness of realities, but by thinking conceptually about things. The mind really is racing these days. Patience.... > The sutta on your fridge - You reminded me that after Jon and I got > married, Ven Saddhatissa conducted a nice little blessing and ceremony (in > London). He recited the same sutta and another one from AN on the > different kinds of marriages (1V,53). We have no idea about the future, > but they're a reminder for me about this moment and the value of the > development of metta and all good states in and outside the home. Ph: Knowing that AN IV 53 has a significance for you and Jon will make us appreciate it more than ever. Well, to be honest, I hardly ever look at it, just like the short hymn (gattha?) I put there reminding us to be grateful for the food we eat. Hello Nina, in passing. Thank you for your thoughtful reply to that post. I will print it out and reflect on it for a few days rather than saying anything off the top of my head. But I can say that there's no doubt that seeing through to ultimate realities re Naomi will make me treasure every day with her more. Aware of loba, and loving all the more, but in a more knowing way. Interesting, but perfectly predictable, that I had more trouble seeing through to rupa and nama about myself. I am so wrapped up in self...but the unravelling process has begun. > Metta and look forward to more gold-dust posts;-) You sure know how to put pressure on a guy Sarah! I might turn out to be an utter bastard. I've mentionned those "regrettable incidents", haven't I? ;) Metta, Philip 30936 From: buddhatrue Date: Thu Mar 4, 2004 5:05am Subject: Re: clearing up misunderstandings Hi Jon, Jon: Reading your post, it's almost as though you value style over content, and assume the same in others too (perhaps it goes with being a champion debater ;-)). James: I'm sorry that my post gave you that impression because that isn't true. I value both style and content. And scholastic debate is not simply about style either. Debators are evaluated in two categories: speaking ability and analysis/research. A debator who speaks really well but has nothing to say isn't going to win the debate. (BTW, I am not a `champion debater'; I am a Buddhist and an English teacher if I must be labeled ;-). Jon: James, everyone has their own ideas about what constitutes good writing or speaking style, but I'm sure you'd agree that it would be a shame to allow these personal idiosyncrancies to interfere with one's appreciation of the message, especially a message as vitally important as the very basic aspects of the teaching (nama and rupa, the five aggregates, etc, understanding of the present moment) that form the bulk of Nina's writings. James: Again, it isn't just about style. I wrote that Nina's style doesn't particularly appeal to me AND I have some issues with the content as well. But Philip seems to be completely enamored with both so who really cares what I think? ;-) Jon: ponder vague and general statements, such as you are inclined to make (an example being your comment here that 'you present dhammas as real entities which persist over time rather than as temporary phenomena with no essence'). James: Jon, I have been giving specific arguments with evidence from the Pali Canon for over a year now. The statement you refer to is just a general summary, an overview, of the main issues I have been presenting. It wouldn't be feasible for me to list all of the specifics, with evidence, each time I mention something. That would become very similar to spamming this group with my views. I would have to keep posting long dissertations of the same material and I don't think I should do that. Jon: I doubt that she is particularly bothered by one person's subjective view, but if what you say is indeed the impression left with the reader, then she would obviously like to know more detail, if for no other reason than to consider appropriate re-wording in future. James: It is almost like you are sticking up for Nina, and that is commendable, but I think it would be best for Nina herself to tell me what she thinks, wants, and needs. She has written a post to me somewhat along these lines and I will respond to it in due course, presenting just a small bit of material at a time as she requested, as I have the time. (I will try to be as specific and sensitive as possible.) But I have my own classroom responsibilities to attend to at the moment because it is the end of the term. I don't have as much time for the DSG classroom. ;-)) Metta, James ps. Sarah--your assignment will have to wait. Will you accept late work?? ;-)) 30937 From: Sarah Date: Thu Mar 4, 2004 5:09am Subject: Re: [dsg] "Develop" what is skillful? (was "abandoning" msg 19836) Hi Philip, --- Philip wrote: > Thanks for geting back about that "bhavaye" in the Metta Sutta. > Still > not really clear about whether it's an imperative or a declarative, > or what, but that's not important. I have to be aware of a tendency > to want to justify the way I practice brahma-viharas. .... S:“he would maintain (bhaavaye): would increase”. I think it’s what they call ‘optative’ in Pali, I vaguely recall from Warder but as my neglected Warder is in my healthclub locker waiting for inspiration by the pool, I can’t check. Nina will correct me I hope, but I take it as for the one who has highly developed metta (see earlier stanzas), it increases or would increase (with the development) without limits. Oh, just found a bit more commentary on the commentary: “Now here is a commentary on the meaning intended. ‘he would maintain (bhaavaye - ‘would maintain in being’), would augment, would bring to growth, increase and fullness....” Remember about conventional and ultimate truths - in reality, no beings at all. See Nina’s discussion with Lodevijk. No self to make anything arise;-) .... > You sure know how to put pressure on a guy Sarah! .... Oh, not intended so.....;-) S:I kept the link you gave before to your pic but only just checked your friendly image here: http://www.annickpress.com/ai/coristine.html James, it has some small print under it that I can’t read, but with your photographic conjuring skills (Philip, he removed my grey hair and gave me muscles once, LOL, and turned Howard into a father Xmas), couldn’t you rescue it like Chris did with Larry’s pic and somehow transport it to the album? Metta, Sarah p.s I see you're from Quebec! ===== 30938 From: buddhatrue Date: Thu Mar 4, 2004 5:26am Subject: Re: [dsg] "Develop" what is skillful? (was "abandoning" msg 19836) Hi Sarah, Sarah: James, it has some small print under it that I can't read, but with your photographic conjuring skills (Philip, he removed my grey hair and gave me muscles once, LOL, and turned Howard into a father Xmas), couldn't you rescue it like Chris did with Larry's pic and somehow transport it to the album? James: That small print under the photo reads: "To download this image click here. To receive authorization click here." When you click that link it brings you to a page asking for a Username and Password. However, I know how to bypass that whole system and I got the photo! LOL! I have now uploaded it to the members photo section. Metta, James 30939 From: m. nease Date: Thu Mar 4, 2004 5:28am Subject: Re: [dsg] "Develop" what is skillful? (was "abandoning" msg 19836) Hi Sarah, A gem to be sure--talk about a breath of fresh air! A perfect example of the way abhidhamma illuminates and elucidates material common in the other pi.takas, I think. mike ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sarah" To: Sent: Thursday, March 04, 2004 1:17 AM Subject: Re: [dsg] "Develop" what is skillful? (was "abandoning" msg 19836) K.Sujin's book 'Metta' was on line. It's a gem. From the first paragraph: "At such moments [of metta] the citta is gentle, there is no conceit, maana, which is the condition for asserting oneself, for showing one's own importance and for disparaging others." 30940 From: Philip Date: Thu Mar 4, 2004 5:35am Subject: Re: [dsg] "Develop" what is skillful? (was "abandoning" msg 19836) Hi Sarah, Thanks for the added commentary re the sutta. > James, it has some small print under it that I can't read, but with your > photographic conjuring skills (Philip, he removed my grey hair and gave me > muscles once, LOL, and turned Howard into a father Xmas), couldn't you > rescue it like Chris did with Larry's pic and somehow transport it to the > album? Well, I could use some hair, I guess. But not to worry. Naomi has some photos in her cell phone that I will send along to you, off list, and ask you to post them for me. Sorry to be lazy about learning how to do it myself. Abdhidhamma is taking precedent over computer-related skills these days. :) Metta, Philip 30941 From: Sarah Date: Thu Mar 4, 2004 5:41am Subject: Re: [dsg] "Develop" what is skillful? (was "abandoning" msg 19836) Hi James (& Philip), --- buddhatrue wrote: > James: That small print under the photo reads: "To download this > image click here. To receive authorization click here." When you > click that link it brings you to a page asking for a Username and > Password. However, I know how to bypass that whole system and I got > the photo! LOL! I have now uploaded it to the members photo > section. .... Wow! So you have! (Philip, you'd better let him know if you have any problem with this). Who else has a pic anywhere on the internet for our magician? Metta, Sarah p.s I'll give you an extension for your Samyutta assignment - no problem;-) ========== 30942 From: Philip Date: Thu Mar 4, 2004 5:46am Subject: Re: [dsg] "Develop" what is skillful? (was "abandoning" msg 19836) Hi James. Thanks for uploading my grinning mugshot. Yes, I am "totally enamoured" with Nina's books, but I'm pleased to report that I'm partially enamoured with you. You're an interesting fellow. Well, everybody's interesting. Did you get a letter off to your parents? I was planning to today, but....you know.;) Someday I would like to chat with you, and others, about the implications for practice of living as an ex-pat. I think there are implications. And about teaching. Certainly Buddhism helps us develop patience in the classroom. Metta, Phil > However, I know how to bypass that whole system and I got > the photo! LOL! I have now uploaded it to the members photo > section. > 30943 From: Ken O Date: Thu Mar 4, 2004 6:43am Subject: Re: [dsg] My wife turned into paramattha dhammas!!! Hi Sarah > She saw me gazing at the small bones laid out in a tray > and understood the strong attachment I still felt for a person, AlanD. She wished to help me, so she gently helped me lift my hand to touch the bones as she reminded me it was just hardness being experienced. Only namas and rupas. Then the very next day we travelled in a boat out of Bangkok with the ashes. I felt honoured to hold the urn and clasped them closely forgetting all the reminders from the previous day. Everyone was scattering a trail of brightly coloured flower petals into the water in a long train and I was lost in thought. K.Sujin again came up to me and told me to throw the urn of ashes into the water too. Again, I was momentarily shocked, but followed the instruction and then listened as she talked about attachment, seeing, visible object and the usuals. It wasn’t sad at all;-) k: Sarah, you have a very good teacher. Someone who really understands nama and rupas and also its three characteristics. Just like when Vince talk about his experience in which A. Sujin was nearly late for the airport and her sister is waiting for her. She was calm and compose all the way there. Rare is this ability to see through conceptual world and being dispassion and unfetter with it. To me, she is just living in the moment, experience reality and cutting away concepts. She also understand tendecy of cittas that worldings carried hence she said it is only hardness, or to me she can say they are just visible rupas. Many people can live in the moment but few can really understand and teach it. Why because some people do live the moment due to pass accumulations and they know water is water, earth is earth but few understand the characteristic of earth is earth, water is water, fewer are those who teach water as water, earth as earth. Ken O 30944 From: Date: Thu Mar 4, 2004 1:45am Subject: Re: [dsg] Learning the Brazilian Brazuca steps Hi, Sarah - Yes, normal and natural are good ... unless, of course, what is"normal" and "natural" to one is to steal or cheat or kill or play the arahant ... or give extreme examples! ;-)) My point, though probably not obvious, is that the naturality of one who has made it well along the path may be quite different from one who has not, and at earlier stages it is likely, and even important, that one's actions not flow naturally, but be artificially constrained to go against the (natural) stream in many ways to foster and cultivate needed change. We start where we are, not where we hope to be. With natural (but hopefully more-than-normal ;-) metta, Howard In a message dated 3/4/04 3:31:44 AM Eastern Standard Time, sarahdhhk@y... writes: > Howard, a little more seriously to you;-) > > The way I see it is if we try to force a change of behaviour unnaturally > it’s a kind of wrong view, an example of silabbataparimasa which Christine > was discussing. I’m sure many of us have gone through phases of being very > ‘holy’ as my family used to describe mine when there was obviously a > clinging to the self being a certain way (quiet, calm, non-stop metta and > so on) or thinking that changing the character (eg not smiling or laughing > or offering pleasantries) will lead to more kusala. As I see it, it just > leads to more wrong view and clinging to a self we take so seriously. This > doesn’t mean not being careful with speech (as Icaro or you certainly > are), but living easily and naturally. > > When I first visited Nina in Holland, it was this natural living that > struck me. She’d jog in the park, read magazines, cook delicious food and > we’ve always laughed a lot together. Both she and Lodevijk have a good > sense of humour, never at the expense of anyone else. > > Later I’d stay with K.Sujin for weeks, sharing her room and again observe > how she’d not only read suttas to prepare for her weekly lecures, but > answer the phone frequently, watch the news on TV, occasionally play > scrabble with her sister, supervise the maid, discuss domestic matters, or > go shopping with her father and help him select fruit in the market and so > on. Her lifestyle was very, very ordinary, but the dhamma was always > present. There was never any indication that another time or place or > reality would be more appropriate in anyway for panna (wisdom) to arise. > > Actually, it was on the very first day I first met her that I had another > of those Great Non-Pampering experiences. This one was on an earlier trip > in Sri Lanka with Nina too. (Howard, you may have heard it, but I’ll > repeat it for newercomers here). I’d been a super-strict vegetarian for a > few years, right through university and beyond. We sat down at a table of > delicious curries and I started enquiring about the ingredients of the > soup and explaining what I could and couldn’t eat. I was shocked when > K.Sujin just seemed to ignore these concerns -- which of course came well > wrapped up in a long list of humane justifications -- and put some soup in > my bowl and then a very little of every kind of food on my plate. Ever so > sweetly told me to eat it out of consideration for our hostess. > > My family were so shocked at how ‘normal’ I was when I returned to > England, eating the same as everyone else and no longer so ‘holy’, but > laughing about the 'holy image' instead;-). > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 30945 From: Date: Thu Mar 4, 2004 3:46am Subject: Re: [dsg] Learning the Brazilian Brazuca steps Hi again, Sarah - In a message dated 3/4/04 9:56:06 AM Eastern Standard Time, upasaka@a... writes: > Yes, normal and natural are good ... unless, of course, what > is"normal" and "natural" to one is to steal or cheat or kill or play the > arahant ... or > give extreme examples! ;-)) > ======================== Just to clarify: I was giving multiple, unrelated examples of bad "natural" behavior here, and I had NOBODY in particular in mind with regard to any of them - except for myself with regard to giving "extreme examples". With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 30946 From: icarofranca Date: Thu Mar 4, 2004 10:11am Subject: Re: Learning the Brazilian Brazuca steps Dear Sarah: > I agree with Howard. Your `joyful exuberance' and `brazuca' are always > most welcome;-) ;-) --------------------------------------------------------------------- The Brazuca's dialect demands many many many prerequisites to be well spelled! a) eating up a entire sack of salt, b) Keep tuned and hypnotized at Bob Sponge Squarepants Cartoon at Nickelodeon, c) keep your Saddha that one day, a beautiful sunny day, something unbelievable will happen: you'll manage to read Visuddhimagga in Pali "ab ovo Genesíaco ad umbylicum Apocalypticum" and understand it!!! d) Perceive that Spider-man rocks!!! e) conceive a manner to put to thrash your addictive Scooby-Doo memorabilia collection, f) Refusing entirely to consume Kentucky Fried Chicken for humanitarian reasons, g) Gabba Gabba Hey, h) We are the world...we are the children... i) Save the Whales! j) Be Forever Yamato! k) Raise the Titanic! l) Charlie Brown is a great pal, m) Don't feed the Animals, n) The House of Raising Sun, o) I'm so Bad Baby I don't care... p) The One to Sing the Blues, q) Don't Let them grind ya down, r) Motorhead, s) Ramones, t) More Motorhead, u) More Ramones, v) More More Motorhead, w) More More Ramones, x) More More More Motorhead, y) More More More Ramones, z) I don't want to grow up! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > S:From the outset when you first joined us, I noticed how caring your > speech was in this regard - always leading to harmony rather than > disharmony and very natural (even if some of it is too high over our > heads;-). ---------------------------------------------------------------------- I see, I see! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > S:`You are the champi-o-nnnn';-) Sometimes it feels as high as the top of > Uggasena's sixty foot pole, precariously balancing in the breeze. Still, > he became an arahant at the top of his pole, so that's as good a time as > any to develop insight. And I remembered Philip's `Got It' this morning as > I did a free handstand for five seconds for the first time in this life - > not quite a triple backwards somersault but namas and rupas just the same. > (See, I'm learning to do the brazuca too;-) --------------------------------------------------------------------- This passage of Suttas make me remember a Byzantine Saint, St. John Stillites, that achieve communion with God by standing on the narrow top of a high column, praying at the breeze, the cold, the rain, the storm, the snow, the blizzard... perhaps some Buddhistic influence ? Keep Boostin' Sarah! Brazuca's dialect is horridbly difficult, with miriads of rules to be follow narrowly and strictly by the faithful pupil that wants to speak brazucalia! Mettaya, ícaro 30947 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Mar 4, 2004 10:16am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: hidden lobha Hi Larry, Also in the Dependent Origination we have to distinguish the different cetasikas. op 04-03-2004 01:19 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > > I'm thinking of the dependent arising formula. Sankhara arises twice, > first as sankhara, then as craving. N:Sankhara includes akusala kamma, kusala kamma, impertrurbable kamma (arupajhana). I know what you mean: craving, clinging, rebirth. This is the kamma-process. The Dependent origination can also be explained beginning with craving. Different aspects of it. L:Ignorance conditions craving > (sankhara). N: Craving is not identical with sankhara. L:Craving conditions clinging. Clinging is ignorance (clinging > to self etc.); N: Clinging to self is clinging accompanied by wrong view, not ignorance, but it is always accompanied by ignorance and thus conditioned by it. We should distinguish wrong view and ignorance. Ignorance does not know anything about nama and rupa, it has no view about them. Wrong view is wrong interpretation of realities. It is conditioned by ignorance that accompanies it, but it is not the same. We should carefully consider each word of the teachings. L:clinging is also accumulations of craving. So, the > accumulation of craving is ignorance. Wrong understanding is only > desire. N: I know that you study the Sammaditthi sutta and co. Ven. Soma wrote an intro and you may have taken this from him: His words are not clear and misunderstandings can arise. This is not prpecise enough. I read the whole co in Pali and checked, but his transl is not too clear here and there. Craving when it arises and falls away is then accumulated, more lobha is added to the accumulated lobha. Craving, lobha, is accompanied by ignorance and they condition one another. There are lobha, dosa and moha, three roots. They are different. In the Vis, when we come to it, you can see that they have different characteristics, functions, manifestations and proximate causes. Lobha is always lobha, its characteristic cannot be changed into moha. However, this does not mean that there are different shades of it, and that there are differences due to the accompanying cetasikas. Moments of lobha are not identical, but they all have the characteristic of not letting go. Now, in the teachings dhammas are explained under different aspects such as different groups of defilements or the Dependent Origination, which explains us how the cycle of birth and death continues on, so long as there are ignorance and craving. When lobha, dosa and moha are taught under different aspects, different names are given to them, but we have to remember which cetasika is represented by a particular name. Tanha: craving: that is attachment (lobha cetasika) to sense objects, to existence, to annihilation. Clinging, upadana: one of them is clinging (lobha cetasika) to sensuous objects, three are clinging to forms of wrong view. This does not mean that lobha and ditthi are the same, but lobha can be accompanied by ditthi, or unaccompanied by it. Basically we find in the Suttas the teachings about all these dhammas, and in the Abh there is more detail: eight lobhamulacittas, and four are accompanied by wrong view, four are unaccompanied by wrong view. We can find many suttas about lobha, dosa and moha. There are three akusala hetus: lobha, dosa and moha. There are three sobhana hetus: alobha, adosa and amoha. Lobha-mulacitta has two roots: lobha and moha. L:Ignorance conditions desire, desire conditions ignorance. This > is the relationship between accumulations and javana cittas. What we > desire is feeling. N: Only feeling? In the suttas there are many texts about the objects of clinging. All objects except nibbana and lokuttara cittas can be objects of clinging. Accumulations and javana cittas: we have accumulated latent tendencies, and we can notice these when they condiiton the arising of akusala cittas during the moments of javana, impulsion. And those are the moments that we add ever more to the accumulated tendencies. L: It is only logical if wrong understanding is desire, > then right understanding is non-desire. N: I think we should be more precise: wrong understanding is accompanied by desire, right understanding is accompanied by non-desire. Again: different cetasikas. It is panna that can recognize the characteristic of lobha when it arises. Now we can only think about lobha. Do you notice pleasant feeling? Most of the time this feeling accompanies lobha. It can be a warning sign for us. But there are countless moments of lobha with indifferent feeling, such as clinging to visible object, even now, or clinging to seeing. We have no idea of these moments. Still it is beneficial to know about such details, otherwise our life is very confused. One could believe that one is only after pleasant feeling. Right understanding, panna, is first intellectual understanding. It can grow by listening and considering and then it leads to satipatthana, so that there can be direct understanding of dhammas. Only satipatthana can know the true characteristic of desire. Nina. 30948 From: htootintnaing Date: Thu Mar 4, 2004 11:11am Subject: Re: Stream Entry --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" wrote: Hello all, A few quotes and links on Stream Entry. I've suggested this as one of the topics for the next Cooran Dhamma weekend (when we get a definite date, Andrew :-)) ... so I would love to hear anyone's quotes or opinions. I wonder, does a person know with certainty if he/she has 'entered the Stream'? Or can one be deluded? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Christine and all, At an unmarked time there arises bhavangacitta seeing the object of maranasannajavanacitta of the immediate past life, which is tihetuka citta that is it arose along with panna. It falls away. Next arises manodvaravajjanacitta seeing anicca or dukkha or anatta as its object. It as a kiriyacitta falls away. Next arises kamavacara sahetuka mahakusala parikamma citta. It sees the object of manodvaravajjanacitta that is if it was anicca, parikamma sees anicca, if dukkha then dukkha and if anatta then anatta. It falls away. Next arises kamavacara sahetuka mahakusala upacara vipassana citta. It sees the object of parikamma citta. It falls away. Next arises kamavacara sahetuka mahakusala anuloma vipassana citta. It takes the object of upacara vipassana citta. It falls away. Next arises the last kamacavara sahetuka mahakusala gotrabhu vipassana citta. It sees anicca or dukkha or anatta and it leaves putthajanahood behind and step up to higher nana. it falls away. Next arises sotapatti magga citta seeing nibbana with great bliss piti joy. At that particular moment is called sotapatti maggatthana puggala. Puthujanahood has been totally stripped out. It falls away. Next arises sotapatti phala citta seeing nibbana and falls away. Next arise sotapatti phala citta seeing nibbana and it falls away again. Then sinks back into bhavanga citta which is one of four mahavipaka nana samyutta citta. If vipassana practitioner is an intelligent and perfected one manodvaravajjana citta is followed by upacara vipassana citta and sotapatti magga citta is followed by 3 sotapatti phala cittas and then followed by bhavanga citta. Sotapatti magga citta only last just a mind moment. It always arises once in the whole samsara typically 7th life from pacchima bhava or final life in the whole samsara. As it ( sotapatti magga citta ) exists just for a moment, it arising may or may not be recognized. Most will contemplate on sotapatti magga citta, sotapatti phala citta, seen nibbana, eradicated samyojana, remaining samyojana and so on. Some do not contemplate. So the answer will be '' A person may or may not know with certainty if she/ he has entered the Stream. '' Counterquestion will be ' Do sotapanna know that they are sotapanna? ' The answer will be 'They may or may not know that they are sotapanna.' Another counterquestion will be ' Can sotapanna know that they are sotapanna? ' The answer is ' Yes. They can. In which way? They can practise sotapatti phala samapatti.' If phala samapatti is not possible then the person is still puthujana. Phala samapatti continuously ( not continually ) and uninterruptedly see nibbana which is a complete blissful state. Sotapanna still have ignorance. They still have avijja. May all members benefit from this discussion. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 30949 From: icarofranca Date: Thu Mar 4, 2004 0:30pm Subject: Re: [dsg] (unknown) Dear Howard: > ========================== > In my opinion, a joyful exhuberance is always welcome!! It is good to smile broadly snd to laugh with gusto. I'm quite willing to wait for the Mona Lisa smile of an arahant, and meanwhile I'll enjoy a hearty belly laugh whenever possible! > ;-) --------------------------------------------------------------------- I will put more verbs with BOOM! CRASH! KLANG! I will put more sounds like the round spelled "Ayin" I will put more substantives like Mae West's breasts... I will put more salt & pepper at the Putthujhanas, I will put more to and fro at Vipassana, I will put more strange rules at Patthimoka, I will put more action at PaccekaBuddhas` curriculum vitae ...And I will run away before Sarah put me on stakes! ( I would try to put it on a Rhyme of I could have time...hahahah!!!) Mettaya, Ícaro 30950 From: connie Date: Thu Mar 4, 2004 0:59pm Subject: Re: Are Arahants noticeably different? Dear Nina, N: This is one of the necessary qualifications for becoming a Buddha, as is stated in the sutta (A.I. 15.2.2.), and explained in the co to the Caryapitaka B.B. Net of Views, p. 262. He has to be a male. C: A.I. 15.2.2 would be this A.i.28? "This is impossible, bhikkhus, this cannot come to pass, that a woman might become a perfectly enlightened Buddha" (A.i,28). Thank you for the quote from Rupas. I didn't remember where I had read "Birth as a female is the result of kusala kamma of a lesser degree than the kusala kamma that conditions birth as a male", but have always wondered whether this is actually stated in so many words in the Tipitaka. In any case, being born human at all is great but lobha led all of here and even good kamma is still kamma. peace, connie 30951 From: m. nease Date: Thu Mar 4, 2004 1:07pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Are Arahants noticeably different? Hi Connie, ----- Original Message ----- From: "connie" To: "dhamma study group" Sent: Thursday, March 04, 2004 12:59 PM Subject: [dsg] Re: Are Arahants noticeably different? > In any case, being born human at all is great but lobha led > all of here and even good kamma is still kamma. An excellent point I think--another way of looking at it is that there's kamma (however good) that leads to further rebirth (however nice) and kamma that leads out of rebirth--a crucial difference. The former is not connected to The Goal and the latter is, as I understand it. mike 30952 From: christine_forsyth Date: Thu Mar 4, 2004 1:11pm Subject: Re: [dsg] (unknown) Hello Icaro, all, The appendages that you mention that were part of the ruupa-kkhandha of the continually self-consuming process of arising and passing bodily and mental phenomena that once existed under the identity tag of Mae West, were 87 years old when the aggregates broke up and dispersed in 1980. Does Buddhist jargon mean this is on-topic? Yes? No? :-) Were you thinking substantive meant substantial? :-) metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "icarofranca" wrote: > Dear Howard: > > > ========================== > > In my opinion, a joyful exhuberance is always welcome!! It is > good to smile broadly snd to laugh with gusto. I'm quite willing to > wait for the Mona Lisa smile of an arahant, and meanwhile I'll enjoy > a hearty belly laugh whenever possible! > > ;-) > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- - > > I will put more verbs with BOOM! CRASH! KLANG! > I will put more sounds like the round spelled "Ayin" > I will put more substantives like Mae West's breasts... > I will put more salt & pepper at the Putthujhanas, > I will put more to and fro at Vipassana, > I will put more strange rules at Patthimoka, > I will put more action at PaccekaBuddhas` curriculum vitae > ...And I will run away before Sarah put me on stakes! > > ( I would try to put it on a Rhyme of I could have > time...hahahah!!!) > > Mettaya, Ícaro 30953 From: icarofranca Date: Thu Mar 4, 2004 1:17pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Are Arahants noticeably different? dear Mike: Kamma and Force are concepts alike. Usually all human beings, as Nina could say, follow up our own accumulations. Kamma forces, induces our lives to take this or that course despite our wills. It's like change gold for dross, came our of our accumulations for a more restrict concept of Kamma... the ideal is the Arahant's: KiriyaCitta, the true Abolition of Force. The former is not > connected to The Goal and the latter is, as I understand it. Sometimes The Goal comes behind the sorcerer and strangles him! Mettaya, Ícaro 30954 From: m. nease Date: Thu Mar 4, 2004 1:23pm Subject: Re: [dsg] (unknown) My Dear Iccy, Your posts get better and better! "Mae West's breasts"--as a great fan of the late Ms. West, this is to me not only a great reminder of the lure of sense-pleasures but a good mara.na reflection as well, if you think about it... Cheers! mike ----- Original Message ----- From: "icarofranca" To: Sent: Thursday, March 04, 2004 12:30 PM Subject: Re: [dsg] (unknown) I will put more verbs with BOOM! CRASH! KLANG! I will put more sounds like the round spelled "Ayin" I will put more substantives like Mae West's breasts... 30955 From: icarofranca Date: Thu Mar 4, 2004 1:29pm Subject: Re: (unknown) Dear Chris! Mae West has well developed breasts because this triggers up at male mind an idea of abundant Mothermilk! Substantial arguments! Freudian object of desire! I could recall better an idea of adjective! A Guna with nigganhita ending! --------------------------------------------------------------------- > Does Buddhist jargon mean this is on-topic? Yes? No? :-) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Yes! You can travel by autobus or otherwise from the Mahamangala sutta to mahasatipatthana sutta and its meditation of decaied corpses and vice-versa! Now pass me the jug! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Were you thinking substantive meant substantial? :-) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- All you want, Beauty! Mettaya, ícaro 30956 From: m. nease Date: Thu Mar 4, 2004 1:36pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Are Arahants noticeably different? Hi Icaro, ----- Original Message ----- From: "icarofranca" To: Sent: Thursday, March 04, 2004 1:17 PM Subject: [dsg] Re: Are Arahants noticeably different? > dear Mike: > Kamma and Force are concepts alike. There is the concept of 'kamma', but isn't there also the paramattha dhamma? What means 'Force'? > Usually all human beings, as Nina could say, follow up our own accumulations. Kamma forces, induces our lives to take this or that course despite our > wills. With regard to accumulation, aren't kamma and will the same? And aren't "Our lives" (never mind "human beings") concepts? > It's like change gold for dross, came our of our accumulations for a more restrict concept of Kamma... Hmm, don't quite follow you here-- > the ideal is the Arahant's: KiriyaCitta, the > true Abolition of Force. The latter of which is not kamma, is it?... >> The former is not connected to The Goal and the latter is, as I understand it. > Sometimes The Goal comes behind the sorcerer and strangles him! Again, The Goal is paramattha, no? And the sorcerer concept? Anyway, a consumation devoutly to be wished... mike 30957 From: Philip Date: Thu Mar 4, 2004 2:37pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Learning the Brazilian Brazuca steps Hello Ken, and all. Ken wrote: >My point, though probably not obvious, is that the naturality of one > who has made it well along the path may be quite different from one who has > not, and at earlier stages it is likely, and even important, that one's actions > not flow naturally, but be artificially constrained to go against the (natural) > stream in many ways to foster and cultivate needed change. We start where we > are, not where we hope to be. This is very interesting for me because before I came to DSG I was always making this point at other forums - where most of the people were Zen - and being called uptight for thinking go. Since I came across the Abhidhamma I seem to have forgotten all about it for some reason, but I think I will want to reconsider. I often quoted Ayya Khema on this: "At first, when one starts to walk on the tightrop of the Dhamma path, it may feel uncomfortable. One isn't used to balancing oneself, but rather to swaying all over the place, going in all directions, wherever it's most comfortable. One may feel restricted and coerced, not being allowed to live according to one's natural insitincts. Yes in order to walk on a tightrop, one has to restrict oneself in many ways with mindfulness. These restrictions may at first feel irksome, like fetters or bonds, later they turn out to be the liberating factors." Since coming across DSG I have been letting go of my tendency to set strict little resolutions for myself, and to kick myself when I don't meet them. (For example, getting up at the crack of dawn to meditate, not watching TV.) Am I using my beginner's knowledge of Abhidhamma as an excuse? "Well, everything's conditioned, so this lounging about in bed is conditioned too." Thanks for bringing this point up, Ken. It's something I need to think of. I enjoy Acayo's (sp?) joyful writing - especially the part about Motorhead and the Ramones! But another point to consider is whether by the images we present we don't kind of force people to condition them in some way and take them on. For example, May West's breasts. The first thing I saw when I saw the list of subject headings were the words "Mae West's breasts." Now, it just so happens that I had a mildly tramautic childhood incident involving Mae West's breasts, and seeing a reference to them triggered a bad moment. ;) Being silly, but it's interesting to ask oneself whether we might be aware that the images we present in words do indeed trigger conditioning in the people who read them. Now we have thought about Mae Wests's breasts in particular, and pneumatic movie stars' breasts in general - come on, who can deny that images of Marilyn Monroe didn't arise as well? This is a silly example, but what if I wrote a horrific sentence, a graphically violent one, just allowing dosa to be expressed in a conditioned way. (I use to write very nasty lyrics in my punk band.) That image would be foisted on everyone who read it, and they would internealize it to some degree. It would have to work it's way out in their minds to some degree. Just thinking aloud here. Self-restraint in speech...there is something to be said for it. I mean, no kidding. That's why The Buddha taught a detailed analysis of what constitutes wrong speech. Metta, Philip 30958 From: Philip Date: Thu Mar 4, 2004 2:48pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Learning the Brazilian Brazuca steps An afterthought: I wrote: > (I use to write very nasty lyrics > in my punk band.) Just after posting, a memory of self-restraint arose.My band (just an amateur bunch) was playing at a small gig, a vernissage, and there was a small child standing in front of the stage. I was singing a song with very nasty lyrics, and when I saw that kid there, self- restraint arose, and I changed the words and lost the flow of my antics. I mean, I was a very nasty (on the surface showing off) guy back then. That was our last gig, as it turned out. I lost interest in the songs. I wonder why that self-restraint suddenly arose? That kid triggered it. Interesting. When my life story is made into a movie, it will surely be a moving moment, as a violin chorus rises to drown out the screeching guitars....;) Metta, Philip 30959 From: Date: Thu Mar 4, 2004 7:08pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: hidden lobha Hi Nina, This is how I reason it: 1. Sankhara arises twice in Dependent Arising: first as "sankhara", second as "craving". 2. Ignorance conditions sankhara so ignorance must condition craving. 3. Feeling is the object of craving but feeling isn't ignorance. 4. From "contact" to "clinging" in Dependent Arising is the same as consciousness process. 5. In consciousness process the javana series is the same as craving in Dependent Arising. 6. In consciousness process accumulations condition the javana series. 7. In Dependent Arising accumulations must condition craving. 8. Ignorance in Dependent Arising is accumulations in consciousness process. 9. "Clinging" in Dependent Arising is "an intensified degree of craving" (Vism. XVII). 10. Clinging is accumulated craving. [what accumulation entails is still a little mysterious to me] 11. The javana series conditions and is conditioned by accumulations. 12. Craving conditions clinging so clinging must condition craving. 13. Ignorance conditions craving, clinging conditions craving. Ignorance is clinging. Clinging is intensified desire. Ignorance is intensified desire. Ignorance is accumulation from the javana series. Ignorance is conditioned by craving. Whether or not any of this makes sense on an experiential level is a matter for individuals. Conceptually, where is the fault? I know there are many other things that can be said on this subject, but let's just focus on these thirteen points. If nothing else, it makes a difference in how we understand "self" as a manifestation of ignorance. Larry 30960 From: kenhowardau Date: Thu Mar 4, 2004 7:33pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Learning the Brazilian Brazuca steps --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Philip" wrote: > > Hello Ken, and all. > > Ken wrote: > > >My point, though probably not obvious, is that the naturality of > one > > who has made it well along the path may be quite different from one > who has > > not, and at earlier stages it is likely, and even important, that Hi Philip You might be confusing me with Howard. My Yahoo groups ID is kenhowardau which is the same as my email address. (I must have been drunk when filling in the subscription form.) I have been confused with Howard before but, more often, it is with Ken O. By the way, my real name is Kenneth Howard Gazzard – known as Ken H on-list and -- wouldn't you know it -- as Howard off-list. :-) Ken H 30961 From: Ken O Date: Thu Mar 4, 2004 8:07pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Are Arahants noticeably different? HI Connie In any case, being born human at all is great but lobha > led all of here and even good kamma is still kamma. > K: Being human born where Budda dhamma is still around is even greater :). Ken O 30962 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Mar 4, 2004 9:19pm Subject: Re: [dsg] reading newspaper Dear Ken Ong, op 04-03-2004 10:11 schreef Ken O op ashkenn2k@y...: > But i say we say reading newpaper are just nama and rupas > then you are not reading newspaper or watching TV. Why we cannot be > both doing satipatthana while the mental is absorbed with a mental > object conditioned by concepts. It is exclusive, one object at a > time. N: Right, one object at a time. But, processes of cittas run so incredibly fast, and you know, while reading, in between there may (very seldom though) come in between just a moment of considering seeing, or visible object, or thinking. Even considering, not yet awareness, but this is a beginning. We cannot exclude any part of our life as object of satipatthana. Actually, the same while talking. You have to think of concepts, but in between there can be sati. Take Khemaka, he preached, had to think of words, but he developed satipatthana and became an arahat. Nina. 30963 From: Sarah Date: Thu Mar 4, 2004 9:38pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Are Arahants noticeably different? Hi Connie, I liked your input on arahants. I think you were asking about : A) the conditions for beoming a Bodhisatta, especially with regard to the sex. There’s a lot more detail and references in U.P. See: Bodhisatta 18577, 22341, 22428, 22462, 23858, 23491, 23508 A brief extract from the first one: Sarah: A few more details on the conditions for becoming a Bodhisatta and the reasons for time, place and family for the birth of the future Buddha as given in the Introduction to the Jataka Tales: ***** Conditions for becoming a Bodhisatta: http://www.sacred-texts.com/bud/bits/bits001.htm Jâtaka, vol. i., p. 14, l. 20: 1.- human being 2.- male 3.- only one who is capable of enlightenment in the life he makes the wish 4.- wish only in the presence of a living Buddha 5.- only a recluse or monk (not a layman) 6.- only one who has attained all jhanas and powers 7.- firm resolve and ‘ready to sacrifice his life for The Buddhas’ 8.- determination to develop paramis and qualities of a Buddha 9.-able to endure extraordinary and unbelievable hardship ***** B) whether Pacceka Buddhas have also eradicated vaasanaas or habitual tendencies from the past. You quoted from A.Sujin’s ‘Survey of Paramattha Dhammas’: “Even when one has become an arahat there are inclinations accumulated in the citta that condition different kinds of behaviour. The Buddha is the only person who could eradicate "våsanå". All arahats have eradicated defilements completely so that not even a germ is left of them, but nevertheless they are unable to eradicate "våsanå". This is because they have accumulated "våsanå" for an endlessly long time in the cycle of birth and death through the power of javana víthi-cittas.” ..... You may also like to took at this post I wrote with comments from the commentary about Ven Sangamaji in Udana1. It confirms that only the Sammaa Sambuddha, not even Pacceka Buddhas have the vaasanaa eradicated. http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/m24518.html Sarah quoting from the comy:> “Also, “But what is this that is known as impressions? They say that that which, even in the continuity of one in whom the defilements are wanting,is the mere capacity, built up by defilements cultivated from time without beginning, to constitute the root-cause of conduct similar to conduct on the part of those in whom the defilements have not been abandoned, is a disposition of such a kind. “ The commentary continues to add that the only exception to this rule is the Buddha himself, in whose case the continuity of habitual tendencies from previous defilements disappear, ‘due to which the Tathagata is alone one whose knowledge and vision are without obstruction.’< Metta, Sarah ====== 30964 From: Sarah Date: Thu Mar 4, 2004 10:42pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Learning the Brazilian Brazuca steps Hi Ken O (& Michael), --- Ken O wrote: > Hi Sarah > > It always good to be natural, but it is also good to be careful what > we think as natural as kusala. There is no point forcing one to be > holy because there is no way one going to be holy just because we > want it to be this way or that way (Ahhh Anatta!). It has to be > natural. But i say we say reading newpaper are just nama and rupas > then you are not reading newspaper or watching TV. ..... S: When we think in terms of ‘reading a newspaper’ or ‘watching TV’, it’s a ‘situation’, a concept, and we forget about namas and rupas which are just as real as at this moment of typing dhamma or reading a sutta. Whatever arises at any of these times will be by conditions anyway. Satipatthana can arise anytime -- hardness and visible object are just as real whenever they arise -- and this is why the only real hindrance to satipatthana is given as ignorance (and wrong view). Even if we’re speaking harshly by conditions or doing something else that’s full of akusala, there can be sati at those times, being aware of the attachment or the anger or any other conditioned reality. Does this understanding mean that we just become lazy and not see the danger in bad deeds and so on? Not at all. As panna (understanding) develops, it knows the various namas and rupas, including the kusala and akusala states more and more precisely as they are, seeing the benefit in all kinds of wholesome cittas and the danger in unwholesome ones, especially those that lead to ‘unnatural’ attachment which causes harm to others, such as in the examples Howard gave (killing, stealing and so on). In truth, there really only ever is this conditioned citta now and the presently arising namas and rupas to be known whether we’re watching TV, not watching TV, thinking about watching TV, thinking we shouldn’t be watching TV or whatever else we’re doing. Anytime there’s an idea of ‘another situation’ being preferable, it indicates a lack of understanding of the present reality. ‘The game of tanha’ again, taking us away from what is already conditioned and clinging to 'my' kusala and akusala. .... >Why we cannot be > both doing satipatthana while the mental is absorbed with a mental > object conditioned by concepts. It is exclusive, one object at a > time. So sometimes I feel we are kidding ourselves that we thinking > reading newspaper and watching TV, playing games can be kusala. .... S: See Nina’s comments. No need to speculate whether such an activity is kusala or akusala. Better just know the present dhamma anytime. Otherwise we’re setting times and rules for satipatthana again. I don’t have any idea that there’s anything wrong with these activities and have a very short time before teaching, but by conditions I’m writing here instead, because you said you were waiting;-) ..... > There may be moments when we reflect on the stories on it (where > kusala may arise), but why read it in the first place. .... S: It’s conditioned already like that and like everything else in our lives. Given the conditions at that time, it can’t be any other way. Sometimes I plan to read the paper and then get distracted here or vice versa. We never know, but sati can still arise and be aware of the thinking, the lobha, the visible object and so on, so very naturally;-) .... >The world > goes on its own way, one way or another. Then again other types of > activites like washing dishes and sweeping the floor, gardening, > jogging are ok because satipatthana works in such activities, IMHO. .... S: Satipatthana ‘works’ anytime with right understanding. Whilst reading stories in the paper or watching TV, there are so many realities arising and falling away. If we think there can’t be awareness because there is too much thinking about concepts, again this is not right. Whilst thinking of the concepts, sati can sneak in and be aware of thinking, attachment and so on anytime. .... > I am not stopping anyone to do such leisure entertainment because we > are mostly worldings conditioned by lobha. Dont unnecassary stop > oneself because it can be detrimental and this create a false sense > of holiness as describe by you. ..... S: I’m glad you appreciated that. Such ideas or repression can lead to stronger kilesa arising when the pressure cooker lid is removed I think. Better to know and understand than to kid oneself that such lobha is not there or to try to avoid it with a wrong view. .... >I do watch TVs shows a lot of time > and also newspapers, books, magazines but I like to clarify that it > is not satipatthana most of the time for such activities even though > at times we do reflect on it. .... S: So we know, satipatthana has to grow very slowly and knowing how little there is and how much ignorance is very useful. Those who think there can be satipatthana all day or continuously are likely to be disillusioned as understanding grows. So the answer is not to give up the TV and papers, but to understand more about the realities that are conditioned at these any other times. No self to select or choose or decide what nama or rupa will arise at anytime. As there is more understanding of reflecting on dhamma, by conditions we may be more likely to pick up a book of suttas or tune in to DSG, but we never know. We can read a sutta and be totally distracted with no understanding at all, like the bhikkhu in the Dhp story RobK gave who sat on the platform but didn't attend to the dhamma talks. .... > I know you will have many comments and I waiting though ;-). ..... S: I have some other posts, but they’ll all have to wait a couple of days now. Look forward to your further feedback. Also, Michael, I’m very interested to know how you’re finding Kathavatthu now in terms of style and content. Any controversies you find interesting? Metta, Sarah ===== 30965 From: buddhatrue Date: Thu Mar 4, 2004 10:47pm Subject: Re: My wife turned into paramattha dhammas!!! Hi Nina, I can see by this conversation with Lodewijk that he and I hold many of the same views. Where he and I differ is his insistence that sitting, standing, walking, or lying meditation isn't necessary. I believe that they are but I won't go into that now. You wanted to know where I disagree with how you present the Abhidhamma, and to take a little at a time, so I will begin with one statement that you made in this conversation to Lodewijk: Nina: Yes, we should realize that we are only beginners. We do not really know what ultimate realities, nama and rupa are. We can only think about them. I understand better that James and others may feel put off when we say: there are only nama and rupa. James: I don't think you understand enough why I am put off when you make that kind of statement. Let me explain more. Now, the implication you make here is that I am put off with nama and rupa because I am `only a beginner'. I don't really know what they are; I can only think about them; I am mired in concepts; I don't possess sufficient panna to `get it'. Well, that may very well be, but I don't see it that way. I look into your statement "There are only nama and rupa" much deeper than you assume. This is an ontological statement, a statement of existence, and so it should withstand certain criteria of evaluation: "There are" means that these are two thing things which exist, and they must exist from their own side since these are only these two things existing. Nothing else exists but these two things. People, trees, cars, animals, etc., don't really exist, only nama and rupa. In summary, nama and rupa are basically `things' which `exist'. What is a `thing'? A `thing' is something (object, idea, and characteristic) which is thought to have its own existence. `Exist' is something that is thought to be real. So, now namas and rupas are real things which have `their own' or `independent' existence. This is contrary to the teaching of the Buddha because he taught dependent origination. According to the Buddha there is nothing that has its `own' or `independent' existence. Actually, there is nothing that truly exists except for a moment; and, therefore, for all practical purposes, to the human mind, nothing really exists at all. Am I starting to sound like Michael? Hehehe… You see, that is why I agree with Michael along these lines because it doesn't matter if you begin by stating, "All dhammas have the three characteristics of impermanence, suffering, and non-self" and then turn around and say "There are only nama and rupa", because you are then contradicting yourself. I could go on but I will stop here for now. Metta, James 30966 From: Sarah Date: Fri Mar 5, 2004 0:09am Subject: Re: [dsg] "Develop" what is skillful? (was "abandoning" msg 19836) Hi Mike, So good to ses you around ;-);-) --- "m. nease" wrote: > A gem to be sure--talk about a breath of fresh air! A perfect example > of > the way abhidhamma illuminates and elucidates material common in the > other > pi.takas, I think. .... S: This would make a good quote for the back cover when it’s republished. .... S:> K.Sujin's book 'Metta' was on line. It's a gem. From the first > paragraph: > "At such moments [of metta] the citta is gentle, there is no conceit, > maana, > which is the condition for asserting oneself, for showing one's own > importance and for disparaging others." ... S: After pulling out the Paramatthajotikaa transl yesterday for Philip with the commentary to the Metta sutta, I came across the following passages (more gems) which support the quote above and which remind us again about how when there is metta, there is no room for maana. 1.From comy to stanza 1 “Or alternatively, the word ‘gentle’ (mudu: lit. ‘malleable’) [means that] he would be without grimaces (see Vis ch i,61), open-countenanced, easy to talk with and as welcoming as a good ford with an easy approach. “And he would be not only gentle but also ‘not proud’(anatimaanii) as well; he would not be proud towards others on account of such grounds for pride as birth, race, etc, but would abide like Elder Sariputta even-minded [to all alike] whether outcaste or prince (A.iv,376).” ***** 2. From comy to stanza 6 “ ‘Let them not wish each other ill:(naa~n~nama~n~nassa dukkham iccheyya)’. what is meant? Lovingkindness should be maintained in being not only by atention given thus ‘Joyful and safe’, etc, but it should also be maintained in being as follows: “Oh that no person at all might undo any other person at all with such undoing as betrayal, etc, or might slight any other person at all in any place on the grounds for conceit (maanavatthu) consisting in birth, [property], etc (see Miii,37), and that each might not wish another ill with provocation or resistive thought.” Metta, Sarah ==== 30967 From: Ken O Date: Fri Mar 5, 2004 1:08am Subject: Re: [dsg] Learning the Brazilian Brazuca steps Hi Sarah > .... > S: See Nina’s comments. No need to speculate whether such an > activity is kusala or akusala. Better just know the present dhamma anytime. Otherwise we’re setting times and rules for satipatthana again. I don’t have any idea that there’s anything wrong with these activities and have a very short time before teaching, but by conditions I’m writing here instead, because you said you were waiting;-) k: I know what you are saying but I think both of you dont know what I am saying, that is why I say there are times in between there are satipatthana. I am not speculating, what I am saying we cannot expect to continue to have satipatthana while we are doing akusala actions. Arahantship can happen anytime for eg one of them become arahant while visiting a barber. However at times it is ridiculous to think that all activities as satipatthana because unwholesome activities conditioned a pondering the mind tending to akusala. I think we should project an objective way viewpoint and not one slanting that we can do whatever we like as long as there is satipatthana - bc there will be situtation it is not possible for satipatthana. > ..... > S: It’s conditioned already like that and like everything else in > our lives. Given the conditions at that time, it can’t be any other > way. k: that is a lame excuse. Conditions will arise we are know, does that mean we let it go all the way. Zealous arise when considering of dhamma arise. dont be fooled by conditions. S: We never know, but sati can still arise and be aware of the thinking, the lobha, the visible object and so on, so very> naturally;-) k: that does not mean zeal can dont arise, read more dhammas, consider them more. When one ponders over kusala, one tend to it. Ken O 30968 From: Philip Date: Fri Mar 5, 2004 2:32am Subject: Re: [dsg] Learning the Brazilian Brazuca steps --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: Hi Ken..sorry about that. I'll get everybody sorted out soon enough. I think there was a TV actor in the 70s named Ken Howard. Played a high school basketball coach. If he joins the group it'll really get confusing. Metta, Phil > You might be confusing me with Howard. My Yahoo groups ID is > kenhowardau which is the same as my email address. (I must have been > drunk when filling in the subscription form.) I have been confused > with Howard before but, more often, it is with Ken O. > > By the way, my real name is Kenneth Howard Gazzard ?Eknown as Ken H > on-list and -- wouldn't you know it -- as Howard off-list. > > :-) > Ken H 30969 From: Sarah Date: Fri Mar 5, 2004 4:08am Subject: Samyutta Nikaya corner - Brahmasamyutta 6:7 and 6:8 Dear All, I think these short suttas from Brahmasamyutta in the Samyutta Nikaya corner are also relevant to the discussion about ‘measuring’ arahants: SN6:7 Kokaalika “At Saavatthi............Then , referring to the bhikkhu Kokaalika, the independent brahmaa Subrahmaa recited this verse in the presence of the Blessed One: “What wise man here would seek to define An immeasurable one by taking his measure? He who would measure an immeasurable one Must be, I think, an obstructed worldling.”* ***** SN6:8 Tissaka “At Saavatthi............Then, referring to the bhikkhu Katamorakatissaka, the independent brahmaa Subrahmaa recited this verse in the presence of the Blessed One: “What wise man here would seek to define An immeasurable one by taking his measure? He who would measure an immeasurable one Must be, I think, an obstructed moron.” ***** [S: Note the use of the word 'moron' this time!] *BB's footnote: “Spk: the ‘immeasurable one (appameyya.m) is the arahant; one takes his measure by determingng, ‘He has this much virtue, this much concentration, this much wisdom.’ Spk-p.t: The states that make for measurement (pamaa.nakara) are lust, hatred, and delusion, and with their removal it is impossible ‘to measure’ the arahant by way of lust, etc. In this connection see 41:7.” ***** 41:7 is the Godatta sutta in Cittasa.myutta. One brief quote from it: “Lust, venerable sir, is a maker of measurement, hatred is a maker of measurement, delusion is a maker of measurement. for a bhikkhu whose taints are destroyed, these have been abandoned, cut off at the root, made like palm stumps, obliterated so that they are no more subject to future arising. To whatever extent there are measureless liberations of mind, the unshakable liberation of mind is declared the chief among them. Now that unshakable liberation of mind is empty of lust, empty of hatred, empty of delusion.” ***** In the Migasala Sutta -AN, Bk of 6s,v.44 (PTS, Hare transl)which Connie also mentioned recently, we read: “And the measurers measure them, saying: ‘His stature (Dhammaa) is just this, the other’s just that; in what way is one wanting, one exalted?’ And that measuring, Ananda, is to the measurers’ harm and hurt for many a day.” Later the Buddha says further to Ananda: “....But who save the Tathagata can judge this difference? Wherefore, Ananda, be no measurer of persons; measure not the measure of persons. Verily, Ananda, he digs a pit for himself who measures the measure of persons. I alone, Ananda, can measure their measure - or one like me.” ***** Metta, Sarah ====== 30970 From: shakti Date: Fri Mar 5, 2004 6:36am Subject: [dsg] : Rob K leaving?&Bangkok Hi Azita and others, I have been away from the computer for months now, due to carpal tunnel and other family issues. So many good posts I'm not sure where to pick up. Thanks to everyone for sharing. Azita, I was happy to hear that you would be in Bangkok in April. I'll be in Thailand March 15th thru April 15th. Perhaps we can meet in Bangkok on the 14th or 15th. I'll be staying in the Holiday Inn on Silom Road as usual. What do you think? Will folks be meeting at the Foundation on March 20th? What time? With metta, Shakti gazita2002 wrote: Dear Sarah and Nina, Yes, they are on Zolag - I think it was Phillip who pointed that out. I'm not so surprised that they are your handiwork, Sarah. They are such good quotes. It's unfortunate that you can't make Bkk again. I kinda say that selfishly bec, I know that if there is a few of us in T'land at the one time, we get more Achan time; and i'll miss you both. If there is anyone else out there who will be in Bkk towards end of April [I'll be there from Apl 14-25], I would love to meet up with you, and maybe we can get more Achan Sujin time. ---snip--- Patience, courage and good cheer, Azita. In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > Hi Azita & Nina, > > --- nina van gorkom wrote: > Dear Azita, > > Lovely, please go on! I remember I had those notes too. Was it from > > Susie? > > O, from Sarah! > .... > I remember Alan W mentioning he was putting them on Zolag, but I never ---snip > > Here's another one I find very helpful (forget which notes): > > "Be the understanding person" > > Metta, > > Sarah > ======= 30971 From: m. nease Date: Fri Mar 5, 2004 6:41am Subject: Re: [dsg] "Develop" what is skillful? (was "abandoning" msg 19836) Hi Sarah, All excellent stuff again, I think. So much corruption of Dhamma--in the modern west, at least--has come simply from misunderstanding of mettaa and karu.naa and even upekkhaa. Without knowing the characteristics of these it's so easy to make cults of these and mistake them for the goal--so it seems to me, anyway... mike ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sarah" To: Sent: Friday, March 05, 2004 12:09 AM Subject: Re: [dsg] "Develop" what is skillful? (was "abandoning" msg 19836) > > "At such moments [of metta] the citta is gentle, there is no conceit, > > maana, > > which is the condition for asserting oneself, for showing one's own > > importance and for disparaging others." > ... > S: After pulling out the Paramatthajotikaa transl yesterday for Philip > with the commentary to the Metta sutta, I came across the following > passages (more gems) which support the quote above and which remind us > again about how when there is metta, there is no room for maana. > > 1.From comy to stanza 1 > "Or alternatively, the word 'gentle' (mudu: lit. 'malleable') [means that] > he would be without grimaces (see Vis ch i,61), open-countenanced, easy to > talk with and as welcoming as a good ford with an easy approach. > > "And he would be not only gentle but also 'not proud'(anatimaanii) as > well; he would not be proud towards others on account of such grounds for > pride as birth, race, etc, but would abide like Elder Sariputta > even-minded [to all alike] whether outcaste or prince (A.iv,376)." > ***** > 2. From comy to stanza 6 > " 'Let them not wish each other ill:(naa~n~nama~n~nassa dukkham > iccheyya)'. what is meant? Lovingkindness should be maintained in being > not only by atention given thus 'Joyful and safe', etc, but it should also > be maintained in being as follows: "Oh that no person at all might undo > any other person at all with such undoing as betrayal, etc, or might > slight any other person at all in any place on the grounds for conceit > (maanavatthu) consisting in birth, [property], etc (see Miii,37), and that > each might not wish another ill with provocation or resistive thought." > > Metta, > > Sarah 30972 From: m. nease Date: Fri Mar 5, 2004 6:45am Subject: Re: [dsg] : Rob K leaving?&Bangkok Hi Deanna(?), If carpal tunnel syndrome is still bothering you, there's some excellent voice-recognition software available now. I have a friend who corresponds regularly and seldom has to touch his keyboard. If you (or anyone else) is interested, let me know off-line and I'll try to find out the name of the program he uses. mike ----- Original Message ----- From: "shakti" To: Sent: Friday, March 05, 2004 6:36 AM Subject: [dsg] : Rob K leaving?&Bangkok Hi Azita and others, I have been away from the computer for months now, due to carpal tunnel and other family issues. So many good posts I'm not sure where to pick up. Thanks to everyone for sharing. 30973 From: icarofranca Date: Fri Mar 5, 2004 7:55am Subject: [dsg] Re: Are Arahants noticeably different? Hi Mike! Force as a newtonian concept: the use of making perceptible results due to external or internal action. Third Newton Law - Cause and Effect - so many times is paired with the main idea of Kamma, mainly by hindu authors like Vivekananda. Since Kamma and Karma come from the sanskrit root Kr, meaning action... a comparison with Newtonian Force comes out easily. --------------------------------------------------------------------- > With regard to accumulation, aren't kamma and will the same? --------------------------------------------------------------------- Hmmm...not "Will" can assume divergent directions when translated to Pali: saddha, one or many of the bhavangas,Vipaka, etc, save some direct dictionary entry! Nina once explained that "Kamma" is a restricted and biased reflex of Accumulation itself. --------------------------------------------------------------------- And aren't > "Our lives" (never mind "human beings") concepts? --------------------------------------------------------------------- If you consider them as mind objects only, yes...mere concepts. But Rupa and Nibbana aren't only mind objects, they are grounded on our worldly lives. As The Paramattha Dhamma's mode of apprehension they are very important! -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > It's like change gold for dross, came our of our accumulations for a more > restrict concept of Kamma... > > Hmm, don't quite follow you here-- --------------------------------------------------------------------- Typo: "out" and not "our". I always keep a definite idea that Tha Kamma is like a heavy and desnecessary burden on the way - only a biases version of our own accumulations (that aren't necesarily tied up with a Cause and Effect interplay!), like change real gold for pirites, "Fool's Gold". -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > the ideal is the Arahant's: KiriyaCitta, the > true Abolition of Force. > > The latter of which is not kamma, is it?... ------------------------------------------------------------------- "Non! Je ne fume pas!!!" HAHAHAHAH...no. Kiriyacitta, as I think on it, is for Kamma as the Lagrangian Formalism of Mechanics to Old Newton's equations pf the "Principia Mathematica". A mathematical tool much more efficient and easy than writing down explicitly Forces, Masses and Accelerations! The true extinction of Newtonian Force concept! --------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Sometimes The Goal comes behind the sorcerer and strangles him! > > Again, The Goal is paramattha, no? And the sorcerer concept? Anyway, a > consumation devoutly to be wished... ---------------------------------------------------------------------- The Goal is only a concept, like to see a serpent coiled around a stone Linga three times and a half and keeping yourself thinking about it. The Paramattha is look at the serpent coiling three times and a half around you...an objective aggregate of Nama and Rupa raising up a definite shape at your sense doors. Fortunately Buddha had abolished such Kundalini ideas!!! Keep boostin's Mike!!! mettaya, ícaro > > mike 30974 From: icarofranca Date: Fri Mar 5, 2004 8:18am Subject: Re: [dsg] : Rob K leaving?&Bangkok Hi Mike > I have a friend who corresponds > regularly and seldom has to touch his keyboard. If you (or anyone else) is > interested, let me know off-line and I'll try to find out the name of the > program he uses. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- I use the IBM Viva Voice Standrad with plenty of success! It's more or less cumbersome to install and tweak out, but it works wonderfully! I barely take hand on keyboard! Mettaya, Ícaro > 30975 From: Date: Fri Mar 5, 2004 3:26am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: the self... how?/Jack In a message dated 3/1/04 4:14:57 AM Central Standard Time, sarahdhhk@y... writes: I really know almost nothing about jhana. I agree with Howard that the Buddha 'never advised against meditating' if we are referring to samatha and vipassana bhavana here. What I questioned in my treadmill post to Victor (or thought I was questioning) was the link, the understanding involved for those of us today who specially sit and focus on a particular object. This is because, as I read the texts, wisdom (panna) is essential for both kinds of bhavana from the very outset. Without the right understanding of the particular object, there cannot be any development. Is there any room for agreement on the last paragraph? If not, that's fine too;-) Sarah, I don't understand your above comments. Are you saying that proper understanding of an object is necessary before one does samadhi/vipassana meditation? I also am not sure what you mean by proper understanding of an object. If one's object of attention is the breath, to use a possible example, what does one have to understand about it before using it in mental development? Sorry, but the more times I read your above comments the more confused I got. I couldn't find the post you sent to Victor so that might be my problem. Jack 30976 From: Date: Fri Mar 5, 2004 9:04am Subject: Re: [dsg] (unknown) Hi, Icaro - Uh, ..., what's that item #3? :-) With metta, Howard In a message dated 3/4/2004 3:30:50 PM Eastern Standard Time, icarofranca@y... writes: > > Dear Howard: > > > ========================== > > In my opinion, a joyful exhuberance is always welcome!! It is > good to smile broadly snd to laugh with gusto. I'm quite willing to > wait for the Mona Lisa smile of an arahant, and meanwhile I'll enjoy > a hearty belly laugh whenever possible! > > ;-) > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > --------- > > I will put more verbs with BOOM! CRASH! KLANG! > I will put more sounds like the round spelled "Ayin" > I will put more substantives like Mae West's breasts... > I will put more salt & pepper at the Putthujhanas, > I will put more to and fro at Vipassana, > I will put more strange rules at Patthimoka, > I will put more action at PaccekaBuddhas` curriculum vitae > ...And I will run away before Sarah put me on stakes! > > ( I would try to put it on a Rhyme of I could have > time...hahahah!!!) > > Mettaya, Ícaro 30977 From: Date: Fri Mar 5, 2004 9:29am Subject: "Mae West" Hi, all - I am reminded of two things (no pun intended): The term 'Mae West' is sometimes used to refer to a "lifesaver" flotation device warn about the chest, with two inflatable portions to it. Perhaps this topic is a "lifesaver" in that it shows, as Philip pointed out, just the mention of something triggers the arising of multiple thoughts, images, etc in the mind, and also triggers the opportunuty to guard the senses - in this case, the mind-door sense. On the other hand, the other thing this matter makes me think of is a Zen story of two Chinese monks who were about to cross a stream. There was a woman there with long skirt who was hesitating to cross. So one monk, the more senior I think, swept up the woman in his arms, carried her across, and matter-of-factly placed her down on the other side. The monks then continued on their way for several miles, all the while the junior monk fuming and upset, until he could control himself no longer and he blurted out "How could you take that woman into your arms!? Don't you know that to hold a woman is forbidden?" At this, the more senior monk replied "I set that woman down quite a while ago! Why are you still carrying her?" In a way, Icaro is like the senior monk, and the rest of us replying to his post like the junior monk, no? ;-)) With metta, Howard 30978 From: icarofranca Date: Fri Mar 5, 2004 9:30am Subject: Re: [dsg] (unknown) Dear Howard: > > Uh, ..., what's that item #3? :-) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- like Mae West's breasts...you're right. I will concoct words and adjectives full of boom, zoom, gloom, kaboom,goon, moon, room, Baboon,Racoon,etc with round spelled "O's" that could suggest abundance and much yummmyummm nhammm nhammm. The adjectives will be fully gunated with all nigganhitas and etc! Mettaya, Ícaro 30979 From: Date: Fri Mar 5, 2004 10:00am Subject: Re: [dsg] Learning the Brazilian Brazuca steps Hi, Ken (and Philip) - In a message dated 3/4/2004 10:33:01 PM Eastern Standard Time, kenhowardau@y... writes: > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Philip" wrote: > > > > Hello Ken, and all. > > > > Ken wrote: > > > > >My point, though probably not obvious, is that the naturality of > > one > > > who has made it well along the path may be quite different from > one > > who has > > > not, and at earlier stages it is likely, and even important, that > > > Hi Philip > > You might be confusing me with Howard. My Yahoo groups ID is > kenhowardau which is the same as my email address. (I must have been > drunk when filling in the subscription form.) I have been confused > with Howard before but, more often, it is with Ken O. > > By the way, my real name is Kenneth Howard Gazzard – known > as Ken H > on-list and -- wouldn't you know it -- as Howard off-list. > > :-) > Ken H =============================== I actually missed that this post was intended for me! ;-) Now a thought occurs to me: I wonder, Philip, whether your reply would have been the same had you realized that you were replying to me and not to Ken ;-)) With metta, Howard 30980 From: buddhatrue Date: Fri Mar 5, 2004 10:23am Subject: Re: [dsg] "Develop" what is skillful? (was "abandoning" msg 19836) Hi Philip, Philip: Yes, I am "totally enamoured" with Nina's books, but I'm pleased to report that I'm partially enamoured with you. You're an interesting fellow. Well, everybody's interesting. James: No reason to be enamored with me, not even a little bit. I'm nothing special. Philip: Did you get a letter off to your parents? I was planning to today, but....you know.;) James: Yes, I did. My parents would like me to write practically everyday but I just can't do that. I don't have something to say everyday. So I try to pace them a bit! ;-) Philip: Someday I would like to chat with you, and others, about the implications for practice of living as an ex-pat. James: I have only been an ex-pat for six months so I don't think I would have a whole lot of input in that area. I think that living alone and being `detached' from the surrounding culture does help the practice. Philip: And about teaching. Certainly Buddhism helps us develop patience in the classroom. James: Yes, I think so. My students tell me that I am very calm and nice. One day I raised my voice pretty loud in a class to get the student's attention because we had to quickly start a lesson, there was a lot to do that day, and then the class was absolutely quiet and stared at me in disbelief. I started to give the lesson and I noticed that they were still staring at me. I asked what was wrong and they said that they were all shocked because I had never raised my voice before. I had given them all a heart attack! LOL! Metta, James 30981 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Mar 5, 2004 10:56am Subject: Re: [dsg] My wife turned into paramattha dhammas!!! Dear Sarah, op 04-03-2004 11:08 schreef Sarah op sarahdhhk@y...: . As you know when K.Sujin makes these > comments, they are made so gently and with so much metta that one listens > or responds in a way that wouldn’t be possible if others were to say the > same words. She saw me gazing at the small bones laid out in a tray and > understood the strong attachment I still felt for a person, AlanD. She > wished to help me, so she gently helped me lift my hand to touch the bones > as she reminded me it was just hardness being experienced. N: I find this quite touching, lifting your hand. That is what I also said to Lodewijk: When she who has a deep understanding of paramatthas says such things, with much metta, it is different. As Num said, we are like parrots, repeating her words. That is, only intellectual understanding, but at least it is the groundwork. We try to explain as best as we can. S: It doesn’t mean there’s any rule or any special experience we should have > at such a time. Still, I think one reason we find the idea painful is > because we think so much about how hard this or that will be when really > the dhamma IS our refuge and the sadness and tears pass by like everything > else. N: It is like your old post I quoted: life, pleasure, pain... We have not eradicated doubts, and sometimes doubt arises: what use are all those paramattha dhammas, I cannot really live up to it. The next moment it is different again and gone. This reminds me that absolutely nothing is excluded from the objects right understanding is to be developed of. When doubt arises, it can and should be object of right understanding, so that we also know (even intellectually) that it is conditioned, that it is only momentary. When Lodewijk's brother Jan had died they put him up in the coffin for all of us to see and touch. I on purpose touched him, but he was like a puppet, no more the Jan I had known. This was not so difficult, I had not such an affectionate bond with him. More difficult to really experience: also when alive he is like a puppet. I said to Lodewijk: so long as we have not realized the truth through insight it is bound to be difficult to really, really understand it. *****> S: Actually it was a very special occasion. We shouldn’t underestimate the > power of the dhamma when there’s wise reflection. It truly is a refuge and > with good friends to help us, we can manage to get through any > difficulties. > S: I think you’re thinking of Sumanaa, one of Anathapindika’s daughters. > From Dict of PPN under Anathapindika: > > ‘Sumaná obtained the Second Fruit of the Path, but remained unmarried. > Overwhelmed with disappointment because of her failure in finding a > husband, she refused to eat and died; she was reborn in Tusita > (DhA.i.128f).’ N: Yes, I remember Phra Dhammadaro saying this in Sri Lanka. .... > S: Naomi must be most unusual. I’ve heard visitors > suggest it’s easier for Thais to K.Sujin and she always shakes her head, I > think;-). N: It must be accumulations. My unpleasant expertience and your posts were useful to me, and so one can always learn from the events of life. Thank you, Nina. 30982 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Mar 5, 2004 10:56am Subject: Re: [dsg] restraint Dear Philip, very sincere and a wondeful story. See below. op 04-03-2004 23:48 schreef Philip op plnao@j...: > I was singing a > song with very nasty lyrics, and when I saw that kid there, self- > restraint arose, and I changed the words and lost the flow of my > antics. I mean, I was a very nasty (on the surface showing off) guy > back then. That was our last gig, as it turned out. I lost interest > in the songs. I wonder why that self-restraint suddenly arose? N: There was understanding of the disadvantages of wrong speech, metta and compassion that were accumulated and arose then and there. Metta and compassion are conditions not to hurt or harm others. Ph: Since coming across DSG I have been letting go of my tendency to set strict little resolutions for myself, and to kick myself when I don't meet them. (For example, getting up at the crack of dawn to meditate, not watching TV.) Am I using my beginner's knowledge of Abhidhamma as an excuse? "Well, everything's conditioned, so this lounging about in bed is conditioned too." N: By the study of the Abhidhamma we learn details about kusala and akusala, about their conditions, how unexpectantly they arise in the processes of cittas that run so fast. Akusala has already arisen before we realize it. And then, the deeprooted latent tendencies, they condition the arising of akusala time and again. All those who are non-ariyans have only a beginning understanding, but even intellectual understanding of dhammas can help us to see the disadvantages and dangers of akusala. This in itself is already a supporting condition for restraint from coarse akusala. We also learn that without right understanding of conditioned dhammas, we are attached to the idea of my restraint, and we have conceit about it. We learn that so long as clinging to the self is not eradicated by lokuttara citta, our sila cannot be durable. This is a reminder that the Abhidhamma is for practice, it goes together with awareness and understanding of all that appears now, even if it is akusala. At the moment of understanding, even if it is still intellectual, there is not akusala citta, but, after that it is bound to arise again. I have no feeling that I should force myself to restrain from akusala, or that I am balancing on a high pole, but I have confidence in the development of understanding of this moment. I know that understanding takes care of metta and karuna, so that one does not hurt other people in any way. But this does not mean that we are bound to make mistakes, of course. Nina. 30983 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Mar 5, 2004 10:56am Subject: speech intimation, Tiika, conclusion speech intimation, Tiika, conclusion. Tiika 2 (after note): Tenevaaha ³pathaviidhaatuyaa upaadinnagha.t.tanassa paccayo²ti. Therefore, he said: ³The condition is the earth element that knocks together with the materiality that is clung to.² Sesa.m vuttanayameva. The rest is what was said before. Yathaa hiiti-aadi kaayavaciivi~n~nattiina.m anumaanavasena gahetabbabhaavavibhaavana.m. As to the words, For, just as, (on seeing a sign for water consisting of an ox skull, etc., hung up in the forest) and so on, the nature of bodily and verbal intimation should be understood as explained by way of inference. Yathaa hi ussaapetvaa baddhagosiisaadiruupaani disvaa For, just as, on seeing a sign consisting of an ox skull, etc., hung up in the forest, tadanantarappavattaaya avi~n~naayamaanantaraaya manodvaaraviithiyaa gosiisaadiina.m udakasahacaarippakaarasa~n~naa.naakaara.m gahetvaa udakaggaha.na.m hoti, immediately after the ocurrence of this, and after the moments that there is¹t any cognizing *, one apprehends by means of the mind-door process that occurs immediately after this, the oxskull etc., that serves as a sign by way of its connection with water, and it is apprehended that there is water; eva.m vipphandamaanasamuccaariyamaanava.n.nasadde gahetvaa evenso, when one has apprehended (bodily) movement and sounds that are uttered, tadanantarapavattaaya avi~n~naayamaanantaraaya manodvaaraviithiyaa immediately after the ocurrence of this, and after the moments that there is¹t any cognizing, one apprehends by means of the mind-door process that occurs immediately after this, purimasiddhasambandhagaha.nuupanissayasahitaaya saadhippaayavikaaraggaha.na.m hoti. and which has as its support its connection with what was previously established **, the alterations accompanied by intention. English: Therefore, he said: ³The condition is the earth element that knocks together with the materiality that is clung to.² The rest is what was said before. As to the words, For, just as, (on seeing a sign for water consisting of an ox skull, etc., hung up in the forest) and so on, the nature of bodily and verbal intimation should be understood as explained by way of inference. For, just as, on seeing a sign consisting of an ox skull, etc., hung up in the forest, immediately after the ocurrence of this, and after the moments that there is¹t any cognizing (of an object that impinges on a doorway) *, one apprehends by means of the mind-door process that occurs immediately after this, the oxskull etc., that serves as a sign by way of its connection with water, and it is apprehended that there is water ; evenso, when one has apprehended (bodily) movement and sounds that are uttered, immediately after the ocurrence of this, and after the moments that there is¹t any cognizing (of an object that impinges on a doorway), one apprehends by means of the mind-door process that occurs immediately after this, and which has as its support its connection with what was previously established **, the alterations accompanied by intention. _______ * The moments of life-continuum, when there is no cognition of objects experienced in processes. The Co to the Abhidhammatthasangaha, Exposition of T.A., p. 227, translates; without noticing the gap. A gap of bhavangacittas is meant here. ** the processes that occurred previously. *** Remarks: In the Co to the Abhidhammatthasangaha, Exposition of T.A., p. 227, the text is similar. But here another simile is used: Thus many processes are succeeding one another and in between there are gaps, the bhavanga-cittas. The cetasika remembrance, sa~n~naa marks different moments and therefore someone knows that there is water. This is conditioned by previous processes of cognizing. We do not realize this when we understand someone else who is gesticulating or speaking. It seems that we know his intention immediately, but in reality many processes occurred. Many conditions cooperate for the speaker to convey his intention and for the listener to understand the meaning of his speech. ****** Nina. 30984 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Mar 5, 2004 10:56am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: hidden lobha Hi Larry, I do not see the Dependant Origination as a mere formula, I bet you don't either! It concerns our life at this moment. It is not theory. But it is deep, difficult to understand, as the Buddha said. I find the treatment in Vi. Ch XVII very helpful. We should study the factors one at a time. But note, preceding this chapter there are all the chapters on the khandhas, bases, elements, faculties, the truths, they all are the soil in which understanding grows. We have to go step by step. As the Buddha said in the Suttanta, we should examine different parts of the teachings and compare them, there should not be any contradiction. In my previous post I explained about cetasikas, so I will not repeat it. I better go to your last conclusion. op 05-03-2004 04:08 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > 13. Ignorance conditions craving, clinging conditions craving. Ignorance > is clinging. Clinging is intensified desire. Ignorance is intensified > desire. Ignorance is accumulation from the javana series. Ignorance is > conditioned by craving. > Whether or not any of this makes sense on an experiential level is a > matter for individuals. Conceptually, where is the fault? I know there > are many other things that can be said on this subject, but let's just > focus on these thirteen points. If nothing else, it makes a difference > in how we understand "self" as a manifestation of ignorance. N: It makes a difference in the way people apply the Abhidhamma in satipatthana. You said: Again: wrong view of self is conditioned by ignorance. But there can be ignorance now without there being all the time wrong view. L: Ignorance is clinging. Clinging is intensified desire. Ignorance is intensified desire. N: I cannot follow this for the same reason. Why equate ignorance with intensified desire. We have to study all the different cetasikas and consider at what stage of enlightenment what type of akusala is eradicated. If not, one may try to eliminate desire first, foregoing the development of right understanding that sees all realities as anatta. The sotapanna has right understanding and he is on the way of leaving the cycle. At the moment of right understanding there is no clinging, but clinging still arises. He is brave and can face desire, even strong desire. It is an object of right understanding. He knows it is conditioned. He has no more wrong view of self, but he still has ignorance and desire, which are only eradicated completely at the stage of reaching arahatship. One may not realize that first wrong view of self has to be eradicated and that only the anagami has eradicated desire for sense objects. It is not in accordance with the scriptures (not only the Abhidhamma also the suttanta) to turn around the right order and it is very dangerous, one will not be freed from the cycle. One forces oneself not to have desire instead of knowing it as it is, so that first wrong view can be eradicated. Another way of explaining the Dependent Origination": the triple rounds, spinning all the time (see Vis.). Round of vipaka: experience of pleasant and unpleasant objects through the senses. Round of defilements: our reactions towards these objects, during the moments of javana, that is the time we accumulate! Round of kamma: defilements can motivate kusala kamma and akusala kamma. So long as there is kamma there will be result at rebirth and during life in the form of pleasant and unpleasant objects experienced through the senses. Then there are again defilements on account of our experiences, and so the triple round goes on and on. See in archives posts by Rob K about this subject. Does this make any sense to you? Is it not so that we only know words and terms? I can remind myself that it is time to find out more about characteristics of realities, such as desire now, ignorance now. Then we can know whether they are different or not. Then we shall also have more understanding of Dependent Origination at this moment. Nina. 30985 From: Date: Fri Mar 5, 2004 11:24am Subject: Khun Sujin [Re: [dsg] My wife turned into paramattha dhammas!!!] Hi, Nina (and Sarah) - In a message dated 3/5/2004 1:56:30 PM Eastern Standard Time, nilo@e... writes: > > Dear Sarah, > op 04-03-2004 11:08 schreef Sarah op sarahdhhk@y...: > . As you know when K.Sujin makes these > > comments, they are made so gently and with so much metta that one listens > > or responds in a way that wouldn’t be possible if others were to say the > > same words. She saw me gazing at the small bones laid out in a tray and > > understood the strong attachment I still felt for a person, AlanD. She > > wished to help me, so she gently helped me lift my hand to touch the bones > > as she reminded me it was just hardness being experienced. > N: I find this quite touching, lifting your hand. That is what I also said > to Lodewijk: When she who has a deep understanding of paramatthas says such > things, with much metta, it is different. As Num said, we are like parrots, > repeating her words. That is, only intellectual > understanding, but at least > it is the groundwork. We try to explain as best as we can. ============================ As you know, I'm not an Abhidhammika, nor am I a devotee of Khun Sujin. I even think that her approach to the Dhamma is somewhat idiosyncratic, though perhaps actually less doctrinnaire and more flexible than that of some of her followers. ;-). But now, the "however" section of my post: However, I do enjoy and benefit from much of what she has written, and moreover, from the anecdotes I have read of her, I think it likely that that she is a very kind human being, and very much devoted to the Dhamma. Also, I suspect that she, herself, has probably developed quite a significant practice of ongoing mindfulness and guarding the senses, because I detect a sense of direct experience in her writing, and not just intellectual contemplation. With metta, Howard 30986 From: m. nease Date: Fri Mar 5, 2004 0:28pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Are Arahants noticeably different? My Dear Fellow. I certainly defer to your vastly superior knowledge of physics (and almost everything else...!). That said, ----- Original Message ----- From: "icarofranca" To: Sent: Friday, March 05, 2004 7:55 AM Subject: [dsg] Re: Are Arahants noticeably different? Hi Mike! Force as a newtonian concept: the use of making perceptible results due to external or internal action. Third Newton Law - Cause and Effect - so many times is paired with the main idea of Kamma, mainly by hindu authors like Vivekananda. Since Kamma and Karma come from the sanskrit root Kr, meaning action... a comparison with Newtonian Force comes out easily. --------------------------------------------------------------------- > With regard to accumulation, aren't kamma and will the same? --------------------------------------------------------------------- Hmmm...not "Will" can assume divergent directions when translated to Pali: saddha, one or many of the bhavangas,Vipaka, etc, save some direct dictionary entry! Nina once explained that "Kamma" is a restricted and biased reflex of Accumulation itself. --------------------------------------------------------------------- And aren't > "Our lives" (never mind "human beings") concepts? --------------------------------------------------------------------- If you consider them as mind objects only, yes...mere concepts. But Rupa and Nibbana aren't only mind objects, they are grounded on our worldly lives. As The Paramattha Dhamma's mode of apprehension they are very important! OK... -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > It's like change gold for dross, came our of our accumulations for a more > restrict concept of Kamma... > > Hmm, don't quite follow you here-- --------------------------------------------------------------------- Typo: "out" and not "our". I always keep a definite idea that Tha Kamma is like a heavy and desnecessary burden on the way - only a biases version of our own accumulations (that aren't necesarily tied up with a Cause and Effect interplay!), like change real gold for pirites, "Fool's Gold". -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > the ideal is the Arahant's: KiriyaCitta, the > true Abolition of Force. > > The latter of which is not kamma, is it?... ------------------------------------------------------------------- "Non! Je ne fume pas!!!" HAHAHAHAH...no. Kiriyacitta, as I think on it, is for Kamma as the Lagrangian Formalism of Mechanics to Old Newton's equations pf the "Principia Mathematica". A mathematical tool much more efficient and easy than writing down explicitly Forces, Masses and Accelerations! The true extinction of Newtonian Force concept! Again I must defer... --------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Sometimes The Goal comes behind the sorcerer and strangles him! > > Again, The Goal is paramattha, no? And the sorcerer concept? Anyway, a > consumation devoutly to be wished... ---------------------------------------------------------------------- The Goal is only a concept, The concept of the goal is certainly a concept--The Goal itself is a reality, if I understand it correctly. like to see a serpent coiled around a stone Linga three times and a half and keeping yourself thinking about it. The Paramattha is look at the serpent coiling three times and a half around you...an objective aggregate of Nama and Rupa raising up a definite shape at your sense doors. Sorry man--I don't tango. Fortunately Buddha had abolished such Kundalini ideas!!! Cheers, Mate! mn 30987 From: icarofranca Date: Fri Mar 5, 2004 1:02pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Are Arahants noticeably different? Hi Mike! > I certainly defer to your vastly superior knowledge of physics (and almost > everything else...!). > > That said, ---------------------------------------------------------------------- zut! Est-ce que vous fumez ? Putting aside Medicine, Biochemistry,The Sexual Life of Amoebas, etc - that are a "Terra Incognita" for my consciousness - I read everything I can about issues like Physics, Mathematics, Astrophysics, Freud and mainly Jacques Lacan. Don't forget I am a Mechanical Engineer, Bsc and Msc graduated... And I am still thinking how could I avoid hurt Dear Chris feelings with my Barbecued T-bone Steak manners ( just see my Pic at Photos section and tremble, pale mortal!!!) ----------------------------------------------------------------- > > If you consider them as mind objects only, yes...mere concepts. > But Rupa and Nibbana aren't only mind objects, they are grounded > on our worldly lives. As The Paramattha Dhamma's mode of apprehension > they are very important! > > OK... --------------------------------------------------------------------- Merci bien, M'sieur! -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > "Non! Je ne fume pas!!!" > HAHAHAHAH...no. Kiriyacitta, as I think on it, is for Kamma as the > Lagrangian Formalism of Mechanics to Old Newton's equations pf > the "Principia Mathematica". A mathematical tool much more efficient > and easy than writing down explicitly Forces, Masses and > Accelerations! The true extinction of Newtonian Force concept! > > Again I must defer... --------------------------------------------------------------------- Just wait and see, Mike! -------------------------------------------------------------------- > like to see a serpent coiled around a > stone Linga three times and a half and keeping yourself thinking > about it. The Paramattha is look at the serpent coiling three times > and a half around you...an objective aggregate of Nama and Rupa > raising up a definite shape at your sense doors. > > Sorry man--I don't tango. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Lucky man! -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Fortunately Buddha had abolished such Kundalini ideas!!! > > Cheers, Mate! ------------------------------------------------------------------- By the Pneumatic Capricorn! It's more easy than seems!!! Mettaya, Ícaro > > mn 30988 From: Philip Date: Fri Mar 5, 2004 2:58pm Subject: Re: [dsg] "Develop" what is skillful? (was "abandoning" msg 19836) Hi James > James: No reason to be enamored with me, not even a little bit. I'm > nothing special. I can't help it. I like everybody. One of my favourite writers Dag Hammerskjold (his "Markings", a collections of essays he wrote during his time as Secretary-General of the U.N is the purest expressions of a spritual life that I have ever found - Christian, albeit) said "The man who likes people finsihes once and for all with the man who despises them," or words to that effect. And I suppose you're also interesting because you go against the grain. That being said, I have a favour to ask of you. I will be making many, many references to and asking many questions about Nina's books in the year to come. I hope you will be able to bear my interest without making constant references to my being "enamoured." Of course, it is finding the Abhidhamma that is thrilling to me these days, not Nina's books. They happen to make the Abhidamma relatively easy to understand and approach through my daily life, that's all. I appreciate that you want to question whether Nina's teaching is right understanding. That's obviously an important thing to do. I read the article you linked me to, and I will continue to stay open to other ways of approaching Abhidhamma. But if you look at the description of the group on the home page, you see that it was founded in 1970 (?) by K Sujin, whose teaching I am not yet familiar with but whom I understand to be a mentor figure for Nina. I assume that Nina teaches in the same vein of dhamma as Sujin, and that vein of dhamma is being passed on to other people through this group. Maybe the moderators don't state it explicitly, but it seems to me that this group was intended as a kind of dojo to carry on a certain tradition of practice. So I see your constant question of Nina's understanding as a kind of "dojo yaburi." (I see from your photo that you practice or have practiced martial arts, so know this term, but for those unfamiliar with it dojo yaburi is when the ahderents of one form of martial arts- usually karate, I guess- burst into another group's dojo in order to challenge them to a battle and prove their superiority.) Yes, I sense DSG as a kind of dojo to practice in the light of a specific tradition. I think that's the way it was founded and the way it was until the internet opened it up to more diversity of view. Obviously diversity of view is important, but it can also spoil a rare opportunity to practice in one tradition in a focussed way. I see that your disagreements with Nina and others here go back to 2002. So there is a consistency there, and that's good. And I can understand why you want to keep coming here, even though you disagree with the core dhamma practiced here. I have never found a group that combines deep dhamma knowledge and friendly good cheer in this way. It is a rare thing indeed. And I'm sure that's what keeps you coming back. My concern, however, is that Nina will one day decide that she doesn't want to deal with the irritation that your posts may bring her and decide to pack it in. She is busy with so many projects, I'm sure, and has come to a point in her life when she will want to focus on what is most important for her. So for perfectly selfish reasons I ask you to be more considerate in the tone you use when writing to her. For example, in the "My wife has turned into..." thread, you referred to a very sensitive discussion between Nina and her husband that she was kind enough to share with us, and you reduced it to a simplified "I agree with your husband against you except for this" statement. That was so rude, and showed such a lack of respect. Read her post again, and think deeply about what she was sharing and what was being discussed in real terms. (Death of a life partner) And then read your comment, and think about how dismissive it was of her deep sharing. OK, I guess I've unloaded here. As I said, there is something that makes me feel very affectionate towards you. Maybe it's being a teacher far from home. Maybe it was that charming e-mail from your father you shared with us. So I hope we will become lifelong friends. In the meantime, when I ask a question about ADL, I will be hoping for answers in the light of ADL, so please refrain from using that as an opportunity to get in another questioning of Nina's understanding. > Philip: Did you get a letter off to your parents? I was planning to > today, but....you know.;)> > James: Yes, I did. My parents would like me to write practically > everyday but I just can't do that. I don't have something to say > everyday. So I try to pace them a bit! ;-) I wish my parents would get e-mail. They're convinced they're too old to learn, no matter how often my siblings and I tell them otherwise. As a result, I end up sending a letter about once a month, no matter how I resolve to be more consistent. The Buddha taught us that we could carry our parents around on our shoulders for many lifetimes and allow them to empty their bowels and bladders on us, and we would not begin to repay the debt we owe to them. That exercise is not an option for me, so I had better start writing! James: Yes, I think so. My students tell me that I am very calm and > nice. One day I raised my voice pretty loud in a class to get the > student's attention because we had to quickly start a lesson, there > was a lot to do that day, and then the class was absolutely quiet and > stared at me in disbelief. I started to give the lesson and I > noticed that they were still staring at me. I asked what was wrong > and they said that they were all shocked because I had never raised > my voice before. I had given them all a heart attack! LOL! I can relate to this. It's a very helpful thing to have in one's pocket when needed. Talk to you again soon. I wouldn't mind exchanging e-mails with you off list about our expat lives. I'd love to hear more about what it's like in Cairo but there's a limit to how much we can talk about that on list. Metta, Phil 30989 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Fri Mar 5, 2004 3:14pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: My wife turned into paramattha dhammas!!! James As I read what you say here, the statement "There are only nama and rupa" is questionable, but the statement, "All dhammas are either nama or rupa" would be fine. Do you see a substantive difference between the two? Is the former not a passable way of saying the latter, or must we always structure our dhamma speech in such precise terms? Jon --- buddhatrue wrote: Hi Nina, ... I look into your statement "There are only nama and rupa" much deeper than you assume. This is an ontological statement, a statement of existence, and so it should withstand certain criteria of evaluation: "There are" means that these are two thing things which exist, and they must exist from their own side since these are only these two things existing. Nothing else exists but these two things. People, trees, cars, animals, etc., don't really exist, only nama and rupa. In summary, nama and rupa are basically `things' which `exist'. What is a `thing'? A `thing' is something (object, idea, and characteristic) which is thought to have its own existence. `Exist' is something that is thought to be real. So, now namas and rupas are real things which have `their own' or `independent' existence. This is contrary to the teaching of the Buddha because he taught dependent origination. According to the Buddha there is nothing that has its `own' or `independent' existence. Actually, there is nothing that truly exists except for a moment; and, therefore, for all practical purposes, to the human mind, nothing really exists at all. Am I starting to sound like Michael? Hehehe… You see, that is why I agree with Michael along these lines because it doesn't matter if you begin by stating, "All dhammas have the three characteristics of impermanence, suffering, and non-self" and then turn around and say "There are only nama and rupa", because you are then contradicting yourself. 30990 From: Htoo Naing Date: Fri Mar 5, 2004 3:34pm Subject: Sensing dhamma as they really are ( 04 ) Dear Dhamma Friends, The meditator is well attended to all mental environment. he can see clearly what are happening in his mind. As soon as a dhamma arises he realizes that dhamma arise. When the arisen dhamma is still there he knows that there is that dhamma. As soon as it falls away he knows that it falls away. He has been in sitting meditation for a long time. At a time a sensual thought arises. He knows that sensual thought arises. It is not him or his. When it persists, he realizes that sensual thought persists. When it passes away he knows its disappearence. When aversive thought arises he notices that aversive thought arises. While it persists, he recognizes its persistence. And when the thought of aversion passes away he notices that that thought has passed away. There is no him or his in the whole process of thought. When a distracting mind arises he recognizes its arising. While it still persists he recognizes that the distracting mind still persists. And when that distracting mind has passed away he recognizes that it passes away. There is no him or his in the whole process. There is no self. All are Anatta. When a repenting mind arises he recognizes that a repenting mind has arisen. While it still persists he notices that the repenting mind still persists. When the repenting mind has disappeared he recognizes that it has fallen away. There is no hin or his and there is no self in the whole process. All are Anatta. When sloth and torpor arise he notices that there arise sloth and torpor and while they are persisting he recognizes that they are persisting. And when they disappear he cognizes that they have passed away. There is no him or his. There is no self in the whole process. All are Anatta. When a suspicious mind arises he notices that the suspicious mind has arisen. While it is persisting he recognizes its persistence. And when it falls away he notices its falling away. There is no him or his. There is no self in the whole process. All are Anatta. When a illusive and delusive mind arise he recognizes that there arise illusive mind and delusive mind arise. While they are still there in his mind, he cognizes that they are persisting. When they fall away, he notes that they pass away. There is no himor his. There is no self in the whole process. All are Anatta. May all beings be able to see Anatta and attain Arahatta Magga Nana. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing htootintnaing@y... JourneyToNibbana@yahoogroups.com 30991 From: Philip Date: Fri Mar 5, 2004 4:43pm Subject: Re: [dsg] reading newspaper Hello all. Nina wrote: > But, processes of cittas run so incredibly > fast, and you know, while reading, in between there may (very seldom though) > come in between just a moment of considering seeing, or visible object, or > thinking. Even considering, not yet awareness, but this is a beginning. We > cannot exclude any part of our life as object of satipatthana. Actually, the > same while talking. You have to think of concepts, but in between there can > be sati. Take Khemaka, he preached, had to think of words, but he developed > satipatthana and became an arahat. Ph: This is very interesting. As you know, the other day when I had what I guess could be called an insight or direct experience of ultimate realities - I don't know yet what to call what happened in Adbhidhamma terms - I was lying on the floor reading, and looked up from the book, and understood my wife in an absolute light. I'm very curious to learn - by experience - more about the process of what goes on as citta rise and fall , and how what we read can come to be a real part of the awakening process, a vital aspect of the practice, rather than a pleasant pastime that takes us away from practice, simply feeding conceit and strengthening self rather than liberating us from it. It's quite fascinating. I have a question. Would what I experienced the other day be a moment of sati? In Nina's teaching, sati is described as a rather rare experience that isn't expected to arise more than several times in a day. I forget the exact words - in any case, it's seen in her tradition as a relatively rare arising. I compare this with Ajaasn Chah's teaching in which he said "If you are without sati for 30 minutes, you are crazy for 30 minutes." I am not fretting about having this discrepancy explained and I will be reading more in the UPs about sati. Just interested in the big gap there. Probably due to the way the word is used. For example, I had understood "samatthi" (?) to be a kind of calm that we can hope to experience though meditation on a fairly regular basis, but I found that in the Tibetan tradition it's a very rare experience only available to those who are very far advanced on the path. Again, I find this interesting, not a source of stress from a need to have things explained definitively. Metta, Philip 30992 From: Michael Beisert Date: Fri Mar 5, 2004 5:02pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: My wife turned into paramattha dhammas!!! Hello Jon & James, Cannot resist to butt in one of my 'hobby horses' in this list: Would be better to say 'all dhammas are known as namas and rupas but they don't really exist, are mere appearances'. In this way one is reaffirming the psychological focus in the teachings with no ontological commitment. Metta Michael ----- Original Message ----- From: Jonothan Abbott To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, March 05, 2004 6:14 PM Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: My wife turned into paramattha dhammas!!! James As I read what you say here, the statement "There are only nama and rupa" is questionable, but the statement, "All dhammas are either nama or rupa" would be fine. Do you see a substantive difference between the two? Is the former not a passable way of saying the latter, or must we always structure our dhamma speech in such precise terms? Jon --- buddhatrue > wrote: Hi Nina, ... I look into your statement "There are only nama and rupa" much deeper than you assume. This is an ontological statement, a statement of existence, and so it should withstand certain criteria of evaluation: "There are" means that these are two thing things which exist, and they must exist from their own side since these are only these two things existing. Nothing else exists but these two things. People, trees, cars, animals, etc., don't really exist, only nama and rupa. In summary, nama and rupa are basically `things' which `exist'. What is a `thing'? A `thing' is something (object, idea, and characteristic) which is thought to have its own existence. `Exist' is something that is thought to be real. So, now namas and rupas are real things which have `their own' or `independent' existence. This is contrary to the teaching of the Buddha because he taught dependent origination. According to the Buddha there is nothing that has its `own' or `independent' existence. Actually, there is nothing that truly exists except for a moment; and, therefore, for all practical purposes, to the human mind, nothing really exists at all. Am I starting to sound like Michael? Hehehe. You see, that is why I agree with Michael along these lines because it doesn't matter if you begin by stating, "All dhammas have the three characteristics of impermanence, suffering, and non-self" and then turn around and say "There are only nama and rupa", because you are then contradicting yourself. 30993 From: Date: Fri Mar 5, 2004 7:12pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: My wife turned into paramattha dhammas!!! Hi, Michael - In a message dated 3/5/2004 8:02:36 PM Eastern Standard Time, mbeisert@h... writes: > > Hello Jon & James, > > Cannot resist to butt in one of my 'hobby horses' in this list: > > Would be better to say 'all dhammas are known as namas and rupas but they don't really exist, are mere appearances'. In this way one is reaffirming the psychological focus in the > teachings with no ontological commitment. > > > > Metta > > Michael =========================== I do get your drift, Michael. However, though one might dare to say that an appearance doesn't "exist", still would it not be appropriate to say that an appearance "occurs"? Some of us would be wary of saying anything exists because we may take that to mean "exists as an independent entity", and others of us may in particular not like to say that dhammas exist because we may take that to mean "exists other than as an element of experience". But "to exist" need not have either of these meanings. It could mean, for example, to merely arise as a conditioned, fleeting, experiential event. The Tibetans, when they wish to indicate an alleged existence that is independent of conditions, speak of something having "inherent existence" or having "intrinsic existence" or "existing from its own side". When denying these, they are not denying existence in a middle-way sense, they are denying existence in an absolutist sense. I think there is a danger in saying without further qualification that nothing exists, for that suggests a complete nihilism, and, moreover, taken literally it puts the speaker in an odd postion: What are others to make of the "nonexistent" intentions, thoughts, motions and sounds produced in making that nihilistic statement? ;-) With all the foregoing having been said, I still do agree that 'occurs' is a better choice of verb than 'exists'! ;-) With repeatedly existent metta, Howard 30994 From: Michael Beisert Date: Fri Mar 5, 2004 7:34pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: My wife turned into paramattha dhammas!!! Hello Howard, Notice that I wrote 'really' exist. And phenomena don't exist as something real. They may exist, or using your cue, occur, as an object of experience but not as a real entity. The point is the word 'real'. Metta Michael ----- Original Message ----- From: upasaka@a... To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, March 05, 2004 10:12 PM Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: My wife turned into paramattha dhammas!!! Hi, Michael - In a message dated 3/5/2004 8:02:36 PM Eastern Standard Time, mbeisert@h... writes: > > Hello Jon & James, > > Cannot resist to butt in one of my 'hobby horses' in this list: > > Would be better to say 'all dhammas are known as namas and rupas but they don't really exist, are mere appearances'. In this way one is reaffirming the psychological focus in the > teachings with no ontological commitment. > > > > Metta > > Michael =========================== I do get your drift, Michael. However, though one might dare to say that an appearance doesn't "exist", still would it not be appropriate to say that an appearance "occurs"? Some of us would be wary of saying anything exists because we may take that to mean "exists as an independent entity", and others of us may in particular not like to say that dhammas exist because we may take that to mean "exists other than as an element of experience". But "to exist" need not have either of these meanings. It could mean, for example, to merely arise as a conditioned, fleeting, experiential event. The Tibetans, when they wish to indicate an alleged existence that is independent of conditions, speak of something having "inherent existence" or having "intrinsic existence" or "existing from its own side". When denying these, they are not denying existence in a middle-way sense, they are denying existence in an absolutist sense. I think there is a danger in saying without further qualification that nothing exists, for that suggests a complete nihilism, and, moreover, taken literally it puts the speaker in an odd postion: What are others to make of the "nonexistent" intentions, thoughts, motions and sounds produced in making that nihilistic statement? ;-) With all the foregoing having been said, I still do agree that 'occurs' is a better choice of verb than 'exists'! ;-) With repeatedly existent metta, Howard 30995 From: buddhatrue Date: Fri Mar 5, 2004 9:23pm Subject: Re: My wife turned into paramattha dhammas!!! Hi Jon, Jon: As I read what you say here, the statement "There are only nama and rupa" is questionable, but the statement, "All dhammas are either nama or rupa" would be fine. James: Yes, I think that type of statement would be better. I think an even better statement, and one that keeps the flavor of what Nina is saying, is "To encourage detachment and generate wisdom, all conditioned reality should be viewed as simply namas and rupas." I believe this keeps the idea that Nina wants to express but doesn't make an ontological type of statement. Jon: Do you see a substantive difference between the two? Is the former not a passable way of saying the latter, or must we always structure our dhamma speech in such precise terms? James: I do have to admit that I am more literal than most, but if you don't want to lead people astray you have to be very precise when expressing these types of things. This is very subtle, deep, hard-to- understand material. Just look at my history in this group: I joined to learn about the Abhidhamma, having read nothing on it before, and I am appalled at what I discover. I write several posts attacking the Abhidhamma as not being the teaching of the Buddha and even being contrary to the teaching of the Buddha. Then I read Y. Karunadasa and I realize that I have been attacking a `straw man' representation, something that isn't the true Abhidhamma. I really do wish I had come across Y. Karunadasa earlier so that I could have saved everyone my rantings and ravings about this subject! ;-)) Metta, James 30996 From: Date: Fri Mar 5, 2004 3:47pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: the self... how?/Jack Thanks Jack, I've downloaded it, but I wont get to it until after the end of the Magha Puja at Wat Promkunaram, where I am going this weekend. Kindest regards, Jeff Brooks In a message dated 3/2/04 11:19:21 AM, dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com writes: << Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2004 11:34:52 EST From: Jackhat1@a... Subject: Re: the self... how?/Jack In a message dated 2/27/04 6:01:09 PM Central Standard Time, macdocaz1@a... writes: Hello James and Jack, I would very much like to read Thanissaro Bhikkhu's article, because I believe it supports my premise as well. Is the article online? I would like to read it. Jeff, Here is the article's location: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/modern/thanissaro/concmind.html Jack >> 30997 From: Date: Fri Mar 5, 2004 3:47pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Four paths of Knowledge or one? Hello James, and thank-you for your kind reply. I am just a bit confused though by your reply. I guess my confusion lies in our differential understandings of the practice of Sati. From my point of view, the three suttas on sati, (Anapanasati, Satipatthana and Maha-satipatthana) are all the same practice regimen, they are just described as beginning, intermediate and advanced level instruction. If we assume this is true, then any differences between the suttas must have to do with the focus of the instruction. If the Anapanasati sutta is the beginning level instruction, then the emphasis is simply on the breath and the body. And, if we look at that sutta I believe that is what we find. If we extend this metaphor then the Satipatthana sutta is the intermediat practice. Since it is the intermediat practice, jhana is not mention, because jhana constitutes advanced practice. Graduate level instruction in contemplative practices (sati) is revealed in the Maha-satipatthana sutta. It is in this sutta where jhana then is revealed and articulated. The Four Noble Truths and Dependent Origination, as well as the Divine Abodes are preparatory steps leading to the right view necessary to support right absorption (sama-samadhi) which is jhana. In conclusion I do not see where your conflict lies with respect to Contemplations on the Four Noble Truths and jhana, and your conclusion that "Satipatthana results in suffering." Also, you seem to find some importance in "directed thought and evaluation" (vitakka and vicara) in the Satipatthana sutta, verses the way it is released after the second jhana in the Maha-satipatthana sutta. However, if we are going to accept that these three sati suttas constitute a staged practice regimen, then I believe it is reasonable to accept that "directed thought and evaluation" (vitakka and vicara) are eventually relinquished as one develops in the practice of sati to the graduate level practice regimen described in the Maha-satipatthana sutta where tranquility is established by relinquishing "directed thought and evaluation" (vitakka and vicara). Kindest regards, Jeff Brooks In a message dated 3/2/04 11:19:21 AM, dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com writes: << What you write here is misleading. The Maha-Satipatthana Sutta, The Greater Discourse on the Foundations of Mindfulness, contains the additional section on contemplation of the Four Noble Truths that the Satipatthana Sutta doesn't contain. You write "where the result of the practice of Satipatthana is defined as sama-samadhi, and sama-samadhi is defined in terms of jhana" but this is not true. The Four Noble Truths are to be contemplated as mind objects but not really practiced. These are thoughts, not actual actions or results. This section also lists the first Noble Truth that life is suffering, so, in essence, you are also saying that Satipatthana results in suffering!! ;-)) Jeff, only the first jhana allows for directed thought and evaluation, the rest of the jhanas don't have directed thought or evaluation. Satipatthana has directed thought and evaluation every step of the way. Do you now understand the difference? The Buddha does give one sutta, to a particular monk, where he is to use the meditation objects of: Good Will, Compassion, Body, Feelings, Mind, and Mental Qualities in such a way as to reach each of the jhanas (thought the term `jhana' is never used, just the appropriate description). However, this monk is to use each of these objects in successive steps, one after the other, as the Buddha specifically instructs: first: Good Will, second: Compassion, etc. It is a very odd sutta and I don't think it applies to everyone, just this particular monk in question: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an08-063.html (My edition of the AN doesn't contain this sutta. I would like to read the commentary notes about it. Does anyone else have the commentary notes?) However, even in this case the description for the practice is very different than how the Four Frames of Reference are presented in the Satipatthana Sutta. Metta, James >> 30998 From: buddhatrue Date: Fri Mar 5, 2004 10:34pm Subject: Re: "Develop" what is skillful? (was "abandoning" msg 19836) Hi Philip, Philip: I can't help it. I like everybody. James: Yes, I can tell. Maybe you want to be liked by everybody as well?? Philip: I will be making many, many references to and asking many questions about Nina's books in the year to come. I hope you will be able to bear my interest without making constant references to my being "enamoured." James: Hehehe…I promise that I won't be making `constant' references to any such thing. But, of course, if you start to get too slobbery I can't promise that I won't slap you down a bit. ;-)) That is just my nature. You remind me a bit of a Labrador puppy: just so excited and must be petted by everyone RIGHT THIS SECOND! ;-)) My nature is that I immediately want to train such exuberance into something majestic. I am a natural teacher, what can I say? Philip: I appreciate that you want to question whether Nina's teaching is right understanding. James: That is simply not true. You misunderstand. I don't want to question any such thing. I would prefer not to even discuss Nina's teaching—but she directly asked me so I have replied. We have been discussing her method of teaching the Abhidhamma; it has nothing to do with her `understanding'. I believe her `understanding' of the Abhidhamma is obviously far superior than my own. Philip: I read the article you linked me to, and I will continue to stay open to other ways of approaching Abhidhamma. James: Good. That is why I linked you to those articles. I wish someone had done the same for me when I had joined this group to learn about the Abhidhamma. Nina's style will be great for some, but not for everyone. I just wanted you to have some different perspectives. My motives were not nefarious. Philip: So I see your constant question of Nina's understanding as a kind of "dojo yaburi." (I see from your photo that you practice or have practiced martial arts, James: No, that photo was from a meditation retreat where it is expected to wear all white; I don't practice martial arts, except Tai Chi occassionally. And, again, I am NOT questioning Nina's understanding!!! I think her understanding is grade A! I have simply been offering some suggestions for ways that she might explain the Abhidhamma for those who are more literally minded, like myself. Yes, I know that I am contrary to this group and I have quit this group before, but I am always asked to return. This makes sense because this group would become very boring if everyone agreed with each other all the time. There wouldn't be any growth, only stagnation. Healthy debate is a way to strengthen ideas and develop greater understanding. It is difficult to learn and grow in a vacuum. Philip: I think that's the way it was founded and the way it was until the internet opened it up to more diversity of view. Obviously diversity of view is important, but it can also spoil a rare opportunity to practice in one tradition in a focused way. James: If the moderators of this group want me to leave or if any of the members want me to leave, I will leave with no hard feelings. All you have to do is ask me to leave. Do you want me to leave this group, Philip? Just ask me directly to leave and I will leave. It would only take one person to ask me openly and directly, on list, to leave and I would leave. Philip: It is a rare thing indeed. And I'm sure that's what keeps you coming back. James: I have praised the merits of this group on numerous occasions. Philip: My concern, however, is that Nina will one day decide that she doesn't want to deal with the irritation that your posts may bring her and decide to pack it in. James: Nina and I have been corresponding off-list and I don't think that would happen. She knows that I have a deep respect for her and her dedication to the dhamma. Believe it or not, she isn't made of glass. ;-)) She can take some constructive criticisms from one person without forfeiting her greater vision of teaching and spreading the dhamma. Philip: For example, in the "My wife has turned into..." thread, you referred to a very sensitive discussion between Nina and her husband that she was kind enough to share with us, and you reduced it to a simplified "I agree with your husband against you except for this" statement. That was so rude, and showed such a lack of respect. Read her post again, and think deeply about what she was sharing and what was being discussed in real terms. (Death of a life partner) And then read your comment, and think about how dismissive it was of her deep sharing. James: I guess I'm a real bastard, what can I say?? Hehehe… Philip, they were not discussing the death of a life partner! What were you reading? They were discussing how Nina teaches the dhamma; how she can best present the dhamma and Abhidhamma so as to reach more people. There was nothing sacrosanct about that discussion that I couldn't refer to it. Philip: OK, I guess I've unloaded here. James: Yea, I guess so!! LOL! Hope you feel better now. ;-) Philip: As I said, there is something that makes me feel very affectionate towards you. James: Be careful, your wife may get very jealous! ;-)) Philip: So I hope we will become lifelong friends. James: Sure. No problem. Just don't force it. Philip: Talk to you again soon. I wouldn't mind exchanging e-mails with you off list about our expat lives. I'd love to hear more about what it's like in Cairo but there's a limit to how much we can talk about that on list. James: Sure, you can write to me off-list anytime you would like. My e-mail is buddhatrue@y.... Metta, James 30999 From: Date: Fri Mar 5, 2004 10:35pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: My wife turned into paramattha dhammas!!! Hi, Michael - In a message dated 3/5/2004 10:34:46 PM Eastern Standard Time, mbeisert@h... writes: > Hello Howard, > > Notice that I wrote 'really' exist. And phenomena don't exist as something real. They may exist, or using your cue, occur, as an object of experience but not as a real entity. The > point is the word 'real'. > > Metta > Michael =========================== Okay, I see. When you wrote "All dhammas are known as namas and rupas but they don't really exist, are mere appearances" I took that to mean that they actually don't exist, whereas you meant that they don't "actually exist", where "actual existence" is a true/real existence as would pertain to independent, self-existent entities. It seems that we actually agree on this matter, though I may worry a bit more about terminology than you. With metta, Howard