31600 From: Ken O Date: Sun Mar 21, 2004 8:41pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: On Control HI Swee Boon Control is a concept not a reality. Cetana is a reality and it is not control. Take for example, an apple falling due to gravity, that is a natural process (illustration of volition), if it will to fall slowly or not to fall at all, we have to invent an antigravity machine, to change its fall or not to fall (when we do it, the machine is the sense of self to control something). Similarly in a remote control car, we need a controller to change its direction. To me, only with an identity then there will be control. Similar there is no way we can control what we see, we cannot say we only want to see red and not orange, the volition (together with eye conscioness) to see is already arised and see the obejcts. The thought that we can close our eyes not to see, it not a control, is a condition resultant of an identity contioned by the three roots to do a willing. Similarly when we think we can hold our breath for a few seconds, we thought that is control, that is not, it is only an arisen of conditions, that a self that will, a self that can in a sense control ourselves. Ken O 31601 From: Jeffrey Brooks Date: Sun Mar 21, 2004 6:30pm Subject: Re: [dsg] One Who Dwells in the Dhamma, AN V.73 Hello Swee Boon what an excellent sutta. I will preserve it for often reflection. One Who Dwells in the Dhamma, AN V.73 "Then there is the case where a monk studies the Dhamma: dialogues, narratives of mixed prose and verse, explanations, verses, spontaneous exclamations, quotations, birth stories, amazing events, question & answer sessions [the earliest classifications of the Buddha's teachings]. He doesn't spend the day in Dhamma-study. He doesn't neglect seclusion. He commits himself to internal tranquility of awareness. This is called a monk who dwells in the Dhamma. "Now, monk, I have taught you the person who is keen on study, the one who is keen on description, the one who is keen on recitation, the one who is keen on thinking, and the one who dwells in the Dhamma. Whatever a teacher should do -- seeking the welfare of his disciples, out of sympathy for them -- that have I done for you. Over there are the roots of trees; over there, empty dwellings. Practice jhana, monk. Don't be heedless. Don't later fall into regret. This is our message to you." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an05-073.html Best regards, Jeff Brooks ---------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 21 Mar 2004 10:35:17 -0000 From: "nidive" Subject: Re: One who dwells in the Dhamma Hi Group, http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an05-073.html Regards, Swee Boon 31602 From: Jeffrey Brooks Date: Sun Mar 21, 2004 6:43pm Subject: Re: [dsg] 'dry' verse 'wet' insight Hello Hasituppada, so well said, and thank-you for clarifying, yes you are right of course we simply use "conventional terms" as a means of communication. As it is often said it is like pointing at the moon to a blind person. We can only do our best with the description so that person will simply sit down and have the experience. You have said so many excellent things I would be honored to meet you some day. I am sure we would be good friends. Might I just point out one small difference between my practice and the way you described the jhanas below. It is just me, and I am sure it is not with everyone else, and no doubt because I am an ignorant cowboy who practiced with almost no instruction. However, when I sit I do not determine a time period for the sit, nor do I determine which jhana I seek. I simply sit as though it is my last act in life, and I seek the deepest domain. I only know the 8 jhanas afterwards from texts when I reflect upon what occurred in a particular sit. Kindest of regards, Jeff Brooks ---------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 21 Mar 2004 11:29:49 -0000 From: "hasituppada" Subject: Re: 'dry' verse 'wet' insight Dear Jeff, It is often said a meditator "goes into"* Samadhi, "arrives at"* one pointed concentration, "attains" *jhana "absorptions"*, "attains" *arahathood, "attains" Nibbana, "sit for"* insight meditation and so on and so forth. But you know well Jeff, there is no "goes into"*, "arrives at"* "attains"* "sits for"* "absorptions"*, they are all CONVENTIONAL TERMS used to describe a mental experience, which only the one who experiences knows, and in explaining using "conventional terms" the experience is invariably distorted. That is why it is best not to discuss these experiences with those who have not experienced them, because they are beyond their understanding and will ridicule you through their ignorance of the experience. <......> 31603 From: Jeffrey Brooks Date: Sun Mar 21, 2004 7:56pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Digest Number 1954 Hello Swee Boon, and thank-you ever so much for posting an excellent rebuttal to my thesis that jhana is possibly the single portal to nibbana. It seems that sn12-070 is an excellent refutation. It may also be proof that almost any position can be taken from such a large document as the Pali canon. I do not however take the stand that the Pali canon is perfect and without flaws. I believe each of us must evaluate the truth of any sutta based upon our personal experience. This suttas seems to emphasize right view as a means of liberation. I am sure it comforts some people, however I do not believe right view is enough to satisfy the insatiable cravings of the human spirit, whereas absorption (jhana) has left me utterly and completely satisfied. The question really is, what satisfies you? Kindest regards, Jeff Brooks sn12-070 Ven. Susima heard that "A large number of monks, it seems, have declared final gnosis in the Blessed One's presence: 'We discern that "Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There is nothing further for the sake of this world."'" Then Ven. Susima went to those monks and, on arrival, exchanged courteous greetings with them. After an exchange of friendly greetings & courtesies, he sat to one side. As he was sitting there, he said to them, "Is it true, as they say, that you have declared final gnosis in the Blessed One's presence: 'We discern that "Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There is nothing further for the sake of this world"'?" "Yes, friend." "Then, having known thus, having seen thus, do you wield manifold supranormal powers? Having been one you become many; having been many you become one? You appear? You vanish? You go unimpeded through walls, ramparts, & mountains as if through space? You dive in & out of the earth as if it were water? You walk on water without sinking as if it were dry land? Sitting crosslegged you fly through the air like a winged bird? With your hand you touch and stroke even the sun & moon, so mighty & powerful? You exercise influence with your body even as far as the Brahma worlds?" "No, friend..." "Then, having known thus, having seen thus, do you dwell touching with your body the peaceful emancipations, the formless states beyond form [the formless jhanas]?" "No, friend." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn12-070.html --------------------- Date: Sun, 21 Mar 2004 05:49:14 -0000 From: "nidive" Subject: Re: Kayagata-sati Sutta Hi Jeff, > They are supramundane because they are needed > for the ending of unsatisfactoriness (dukkha). It is not so, Jeff. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn12-070.html Regards, Swee Boon 31604 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Mar 21, 2004 9:09pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Right understanding for beginners ( was Sammaditthi#1492) Dear Philip, there are many levels of right understanding: of the level of listening, considering, thinking about nama and rupa, and these levels are the foundation for the growth of direct understanding of dhammas as they appear one at a time. All levels are included in mental development, bhavana. When we read in the sutta, we know from the context that this thinking is more than intellectual understanding, that it is satipatthana. The translation may not be so clear. Nina. op 21-03-2004 14:06 schreef Philip op plnao@j...: > Can a beginner like myself, who has often enough revealed his > gross lack of understanding, also have right understanding at > times just by thinking about rupa and nama? 31605 From: Sarah Date: Sun Mar 21, 2004 10:38pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Dear Abbydhamma - Fear of poverty Dear Penniless in Samsara;-), I’d also like to join the bandwagon, ignore your retraction and add comments on the important issues you raise in this post. I’m glad to see that Chris and Nina have already given lots of good advice and sutta references. --- Philip wrote: > > > Dear Abbydhamma, > > I've been to the UPs but haven't found anything on this subject, > so I will turn to you. There are hardly any advice-columnesque posts > here, so I hope you will allow a brief diversion from discussion of > dhammas. .... S: This could be the start of something new and fun....;-) I think the points you raise are all hard-core dhamma along the lines of straightening our views. ..... > > It's suitable that I post here, actually, because the fear has > arisen since I encountered this group, and more especually the > abhidhamma. It makes sense - I've seen my wrong way of understanding > reality stripped down and am standing naked on a very cold day. > A friend here referred to having one's wrong understanding exposed > as "refreshing" and I can see that, in a sense, because there is > knowledge that with the passing of wrong understanding right > understanding can arise. .... S: Just as having a cold shower or bath doesn’t always seem refreshing in the first instance, nor does having one’s ‘wrong way of understanding reality stripped down’ seem so. It takes courage. .... > My problem is that - as I posted before- the circumstances of my > life demand that I try to make money, and my new small degree of > right understanding shows me that intending to make money through > concepts/writing is a recipe for great deepening of defilements > rather than progress on uprooting them. .... S: To put it bluntly, I think this would be an example of a ‘wrong way of understanding reality’. Again it is an idea of a certain ‘situation’ or siilabbataparaamaasa (adherence to rites and rituals)in that there is the idea that certain occasions/activities or dhammas are more appropriate or more right for developing understanding. This is why I think your post is such a good one and contains hard-core dhamma which is relevant for us all in daily life. .... > I think the problem comes down to the fact that my best friend/life > partner/wife Naomi has no interest in Buddhism and considers my > interest a form of dilly-dallying and avoiding the hard work that > needs to be done. .... S: She may have a good point. If we use our interest in Buddhism as an excuse to avoid our responsibilities, it’s not going to be surprising if those around us notice;-) ..... >I want to get deeper and deeper into understanding > dhammas. She wants me to get deeper and deeper into the market place. > And I know she's right that if I don't, we will be penniless in > our old age. We joke about surving on a can of tuna a day. If I were > by myself, that would be all right. I would have a greater wealth in > dhmma than a comfortable retirement fund. ..... S: There doesn’t need to be any conflict at all unless it is lobha driving our dhamma study again. On the contrary, I think the real understanding of dhammas helps us in the market place not to have any idea of lost time or better use elsewhere and so on. I also think the idea of being able to happily survive on tuna (too much mercury, btw to eat every day;-))because one has a ‘greater wealth in dhamma’ is a misplaced fantasy, though I know you’re not completely serious. ..... >But she will be by my side > when we are old, and if she hasn't found the Buddha's teaching by > then, there will be hell to pay. .... S: Even if she has found the Buddha’s teaching, one still needs to be able to pay one’s medical bills, travel to see relatives and survive with reasonable comfort. But even then, there are no guarantees or real security of any kind in life as Chris pointed out. It can all be lost anytime, in spite of our best efforts. .... > So one thing to do is to help her understand the Buddha's teaching. <...> >Those of you whose life partners (I > think of Sarah and Jon and Nina and Ludjewik(sp?) ) share an interest > in the Buddha's teaching should not take that for granted. .... S: Phil, it may be some comfort for you to know that neither of us have been ‘liberated from material concerns to even a small degree’. We’re real beginners on the path and have faced (and face) just the same dilemmas and difficulties you are now facing. When we married, Jon was nearly 40 and together we had less than one thousand dollars saved without any investment of any kind and various commitments to his father and so on. We’ve both worked incredibly hard for the last 25 years. Jon has been in his office every day, 6 days a week, including during a long period (2 years or so) of treatment for a tumour and so on. After a few years of college teaching in Austalia and here in Hong Kong, I started up my own teaching and assessment business and emplyoyed 30 teachers at one time, again sometimes working through ill-health, running intensive courses through all my summer holidays, studying for an MBA on the side and so on. At one time I was working 70 hour weeks (not recommended;-)) and the only dhamma reading I’d do would be when I got into bed. I’d pull out a text or a letter from the continuous supply Nina had always sent me since I first knew her in 1975. At times, however, I'd invariably fall asleep before I finished a page at most. On average twice a year we’d spend time with K.Sujin in Bangkok or she’d come and stay with us in Hong Kong and have discussions with our friends. One time she visited and I was exhausted and stressed out and mentioned this. I hoped she’d just advise me to give up work and rest more. Never! She’d just continue to remind me about the present realities to be known such as seeing, visible object, aversion, attachment and so on. We can understand conditioned realities and accumulations at any moment without setting any rules at all. In fact, since we’ve been married, neither of us has ever mentioned or hinted that our work has been an impediment or distraction as far as satipatthana is concerned. Consideration and sati can arise anytime at all, even while dropping off to sleep. During the last couple of years I’ve been unwinding my business at a rapid rate, partly due to commitments we’ve taken on with DSG and have more time again to read more. It could change again anytime, however. Jon continues as busily as ever, but never complains about it, not even at the end of a trip when he usually goes straight from the airport into his office for lengthy and often very dreary meetings. What I’m saying is, please don’t attribute Naomi’s worldly concerns to being a result of her lack of interest in the Buddha’s teachings. As I said before, understanding of the teachings makes life easier not harder. .... <...> > So sharing the Buddha's teaching with her is not easy. .... S: Best not to have expectations and to see the attachment to results of sharing as being the problem. Like Nina said, no need to call it Buddhism. Some of the students I’ve formed the greatest bonds with over the years have been my Japanese students - children and adults. I think one can discuss qualities like the perfections, because there is often an appreciation of kindness, courtesy, respect and so on. Again, it has to be at the right time and one has to consider whether one is talking about the teachings really for the other’s welfare or just because one would like those one holds dear to share the same understanding and see the value in them as we do. Sometimes it’s kinder to listen as I found when I was with my mother last summer. .... > Sharing from > the heart is best of course, telling her what I've learned, how > important it is, but you see that is another catch 22 because since > she thinks my interest in Buddhism is dilly-dallying, talking about > it is also dilly-dallying. .... S: So maybe it will be your example of not dilly-dallying which will help her most;-) .... > We don't have kids, BTW. That may make us very close and dependent > on each other, to a degree that many couples with kids don't have > because of orientating more towards the kids' well being. But that's > a different topic. .... S: Understood. Same for us. Just one more comment on partnerships. We’ve also known friends who’ve married with the same confidence and interest in the Buddha’s teachings and still run into big problems whilst other friends with no such interest and far greater material difficulties to have come through with flying colours. So many factors involved. I think the reminder to ‘be the understanding person’ helps a lot, not that I’m any expert in this field and am often very impatient;-). Conditions are so very complicated and change all the time. We have no idea either what kamma has in store for us. .... > Anyways, I needed to post this. If I am less involved here in the > months to come, it will not be because of a typical fickleness of > passing interest, but because I somehow have to get my nose down to > the grindstone. (If any of you are fithy rich and would like to adopt > a youngish, middle-aged couple, we are available. Fairly house > trained, and we can both cook quite well.) .... S: ;-) .... > I am feeling confused and fearful about how to balance a sincere > interest in the Buddha's teaching with a need to think about the > market place. ... S: Confusion, fear are shades of dosa and can be understood anytime they arise. Whether you think or don’t think about the market place, it’ll be by conditions and the realities of daily life will be just as real either way. Yes, it comes back to the present moment and the understanding of the cittas, cetasikas and rupas appearing now, rather than any idea of a better way or set of activities. Look forward to any more of your sharings. With metta, Abbydhamma ============ 31606 From: Sarah Date: Mon Mar 22, 2004 0:28am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: clearing up misunderstandings Hi Howard, I was down with a 24hour food posioning attack yesterday (Jon has a milder version still), so I’m behind on my reading of posts and haven’t yet followed your side-thread with him or others. I’m replying now to parts of your two posts to me. --- upasaka@a... wrote: > I just reread this reply of mine and I am unhappy with it. I am > sorry > I didn't use a much softer tone. My post obviously expresses annoyance, > which > is my problem, not yours. .... S: I appreciate your kind words here, Howard, but I’d also like to ‘back off’. When I wrote to you before, it was at the end of an afternoon of writing, including typing out a long passage from Dispeller, that as usual had taken far longer than anticipated. I had wanted to respond to you, but your post was at the bottom of the pile and I was left with a rushed five minutes before dashing out for Tai-chi. It’s not surprising at all that your reacted as you did, especially when it comes to the topic of experiences. So, I apologise too;-) .... > I found it silly and a bit of a put-down when you requested a > "reference" that might make it believable to you that I actually > experienced what I > did directly experience. That was how I reacted, which probably was well > > off-base and surely was a thrashing about of ego! .... S: Oh well, I’m sure there’s plenty of that common problem all round here;-. Back to your earlier post. Perhaps we are using the word ‘object’ in different ways, so I’d like to clarify and to say we can refer to that which is seen or heard, for example, by using any term. It’s not important. .... H: > As far as your requirements are concerned I can't say, but the > following line of thinking does occur: You believe, I think, that there > is, in > reality, no knowing subject. ... S: No self. We both agree. ... >Now I'm not clear on what you consider > 'object' or > 'arammana' to mean, but I assume that you consider subject and object to > be > mutually dependent. .... S: No, in the way I use ‘object’ or arammana as used in the texts, it represents the phenomena which are experienced through the 6 door-ways regardless of any wisdom or lack of. So there is seeing or hearing now and that which is seen, visible data or other sense door objects, but no subject or self. .... >If you do, then with no subject there is no object. > If, on the > other hand, you treat the word 'object' to mean nothing more than > "phenomenon" > or "(content of) experience", then yes, experience of a nondual sort, > continues even when there is no sense of subject and its objects, and > there is content > to such experience, but I would consider defining 'arammana' as > "experience" > to be an inadequate and misleading definition. .... S: I would too. I would define the seeing or hearing as experienced and the visible or heard as the arammana of those experiences. Whether this is called ‘dual’ or ‘non-dual’ or anything else doesn’t really bother me. An ‘enlightened’ experience as I understand it, is not the loss of objects but the full understanding of the objects experienced as anicca, dukkha and anatta. This is why the path begins with the clear comprehending of nama and rupa, not the clear comprehending of experiencing and eradication of objects of experience. We read again and again in the suttas about the understanding and detachment towards the objects experienced through the senses and the understanding of the dangers of attachment and proliferation with regards to these objects. With regard to the Kalaka sutta which Swee Boon raised; >http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an04-024.html I think as Ken O indicated, it is clearly showing that in the case of the Buddha, there is no proliferation or unwholesome dwelling (ma~n~nati) on account of what is seen, heard and so on. No idea of self at all. In the Udana comy (PTS), Mucalinda chapter [132], the same lines from the Kalaka sutta are quoted as indicating the depth of knowledge of the Tathagata who knew all sense objects "either by way of its being desirable or undesirable and so on, or by way of whichever term is applicable in the case of things seen, heard, sensed and cognised, under countless names, in thirteen cycles in fifty-two methods,.......For this was said by the Lord: ‘That which,monks, is, for this world with its devas..with its (generation of (devas and men, a thing seen, heard.....that do I know....that have I come directly to know, for the Tathagata is that fathomed, to that the Tathagata does not attend.’(A ii25). Thus he is Tathagata, in that it was of that which is accordant (tatha) that he was a seer (dassitaaya). And in this connection, the origin of the word ‘Tathaagata’ is to be understood (to lie) in the sense of ‘accordant seeing’ (tathadassii).” ... <...> It is still the case that I haven't the slightest doubt that my > experience consisted of the absence of a dualistic, knowing-known event, > and that > while there was multisensory experiential content, there yet was no > knowing that > was separate from the content, and the content at no time was an object > of > such a subjective knowing. The experience was no more subjective than > objective, > and no more objective than subjective. .... S: Again, there may be some confusion with terms. At this moment, if there is awareness of say feeling or hardness, just that reality ‘appears’ momentarily as it is. There is no thought about this being an object or any other label. Still, we can say that awareness has to be aware of a nama or a rupa and in this sense even when we talking about the development of satipatthana, there is always an object present and a citta experiencing the object. The reason I asked for a reference to discuss further was because I felt we were reaching an impasse of comparing different, seemingly contradictory experiences. .... >And it is misleading to say it > was > both, and it is misleading to say it was neither. This is the way it > was, and the > Kalakarama Sutta really does describe it well. But I recognize that my > claimed lack of doubt in the matter should in no way be satisfactory for > you. .... S: Well, I’ll be interested in your further comments on the sutta above.As I say, I think there may be some misunderstanding still in terminology. For example, when we read in suttas like SN 35:26 (4) Understanding, about ‘understanding the all’ as including the eye, forms, eye-consciousness, eye-contact,feelings and so on by developing dispassion which leads to abandoning. Would you suggests that when these actualities are understood that they are not the objects of cittas with understanding? ... > I apologize for my ego-bound annoyance, and, more importantly, I > apologize for letting it be expressed with a flavor of sharpness in my > post to you. > I am particularly displeased with the sarcastic second sentence of mine > that > I quote above. Sarcasm is far from right speech. Clearly, my experience, > which > produced some very important and very useful fallout in my life, still > very > much left my ego sense well intact! ;-) .... S: When I read your comment, I just thought “Oh, I’ve stepped on an egg-shell....need to be more considerate, even when posting in haste”, so it was a useful reflection for me. As Nina sort of said, we’re all like babies or baby pups here really. It’s a live list and our various foibles are bound to surface when we write as regularly as some of us do. I’ve left aside a couple of comments on Vinnana in D.O. as there will be plenty of opportuntities when we get to it in the D.O. corner. Finally, given that all past wondrous experiences or insights have long since gone, do you think there is any value in reflecting further on them rather than understanding present dhammas? Metta, Sarah ====== 31607 From: Sukinderpal Singh Narula Date: Mon Mar 22, 2004 0:32am Subject: Re: the self. . . how?/Jack Hi Swee Boon, > > However, yes I would maintain that any striving with `self' with > > respect to development of "satipatthana" is akusala, namely `wrong > > view'. And this is considered the worst of the akusala kammapatthas. > > So, Sukin, is it possible to strive without self-identity view? > Is it possible to 'control' without self-identity view? > Is it possible to 'select' without self-identity view? > Is it possible to 'attempt' without self-identity view? > Is it possible to 'try' without self-identity view? All these terms, `strive', `control', `select', `attempt' and `try', do they correspond to paramattha dhammas, or are they used conventionally? If they are dhammas, I would like you to identify them, if they are used conventionally, then I would like to know what context they are used in. Self-identity view does not arise with dosa and moha mula cittas and only four of the eight lobha mula cittas. So for example, you can `try' to reach for the sugar across the table without `self-view and you can `control' your car to avoid hitting another car also without any self-view. But I think, you should stick to the topic of developing sati and panna, and not ask in such a general way. It seems almost as if you have chosen to create a premise and used it through logic, to try to fit some conclusion of yours. If ever there is going to be any direct understanding of anatta for any of us, it will be only by considering the present moment. Is this moment conditioned and not-self? At first this inquiry will have to be at the "thinking" level. This is obvious, because we have only *just* heard about anatta and such, from reading and/or hearing the Buddha's teachings. So at this stage whenever we are confronted with any experience and are reminded about these things, we can only reflect `intellectually'. And if we have a preconceived idea about theory and practice and find a need to justify these, then we will read into the Texts whatever lobha will lead us to. However we can still check it out, by trying to see if any of our interpretations are consistent with the general thrust of the Teachings and not just based on personal inclinations. If we are indeed so much attached to our practice and not careful, we may go to the extreme to not only read into the Teachings what we like, but even go so far as to use `logic' to drive any statement to fit our preconceived ideas. If you don't mind, I would like to refer to your discussion with Ken O. You said in one of your posts; > I said that there is no control over the 3 characteristics of dhammas. > > But there is control over the arising of kusala or akusala dhammas. > And that this control is one of the primary functions of cetana. > > I do not make a distinction between control and cetana. Which you later changed this part; > But there is control over the arising of kusala or akusala dhammas. To; ""What I meant is that there can be deliberate consideration whether to take a skilfull or unskillful action."" Are you not contradicting yourself in all this? If indeed you realize that there is "no control over 3 characteristics of dhammas", then what is the characteristic of "deliberate consideration"? Does not this also have the same three characteristics? And is it not that *all* dhammas be they kusala, akusala or any other, also anatta, anicca and dukkha? What do you understand by these three characteristics? Do you consider conditionality at all? Do you consider if this moment is conditioned, the `volition' et al? I think in the end, you are arguing for `volition' as implying that `choice can be made'. In this you believe that any progress with regard to practicing the Buddha's Path, revolves around making the correct choice in the present moment. And in the overall picture of what the practice means, you believe in formal "meditation". I am sure also, that you have experienced what you think are positive outcomes of such an outlook. I will not question you whether these apparent signs of progress are indeed real or not. But I can only say that such signs (forgive me if I am a bit presumptive here, just want to make a point ;-)), are what people of other religions also always looking for and do *find* in themselves. They don't need to hear the Buddha's teachings at all! It is so very easy to deceive oneself. Another thing, one of the thoughts I used to have when I first started to appreciate the importance of pariyatti, is that those people who meditate and have grown to appreciate to deeper levels, the Teachings, do so because they *also* `study'. That is, they progress not because of meditation, but in spite of it. But I think there is one good way to at least estimate if one really correctly understands the Buddha's teachings, and it is to see if in the present moment, there is any detachment. Not in relation to ideas about what one is and supposed to be, but to whatever dhamma that arises. And there are fewer tendencies to control and change things, at least within the context of what is and what should be with regard to development. I started out with only a few things to say, but ended up with another long post. Sorry, ;-). Metta, Sukin. 31608 From: Sarah Date: Mon Mar 22, 2004 2:03am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: the self. . . how?/Jack Hi Jack, I’d like to say a little more on this point too because I think these are such good questions: --- Jackhat1@a... wrote: > There is one point I still don't understand about your position. In > your > system, how do you convert conceptual knowledge to experiential > knowledge? Am I > incorrect in saying that you would answer that repeatedly studying the > teachings (conceptual knowledge) results eventually in experiential > knowledge? And, > trying to see/prove the conceptual knowledge by experiencing it involves > trying > and shouldn't be attempted? .... S: I’d like to just give a personal example on the day I read these questions. I had typed out a passage from a commentary text about ignorance and attachment as being ‘the heads’ in the rounds of rebirth and as a result was reflecting further on just how much ignorance there is most of the day and how it leads to unhappy rebirths. I was also reflecting on the nature of attachment, especially with regard to say, not breaking the precepts or performing good deeds. I didn’t ask or try to have these reflections. I’d written out a passage which I had thought might be useful and the reflections just followed, whilst I was teaching or brushing my teeth, being aware in between of attachment or ignorance or other realities too. No self of course is involved to do anything at all. The same day, Nina mentioned in a reply to me about a discussion we’d had in Bangkok about attachment to our good deeds and how these can all be done for oneself, to accumulate more kusala. It doesn’t mean there isn’t any real kindness or generosity involved, but the clinging to self can follow so closely. And then conceit, more discussion on conceit and again, without any wish or intention, whilst teaching my students that day, I was aware of how often the conceit arises whilst helping them. The mind-states change all the time. As I mentioned to another friend, whilst getting annoyed or raising one’s voice, there can be understanding and awareness even as one continues to be annoyed and in the same way, when one speaks kindly or helpfully, conceit or attachment can slip in anytime with the opposite characteristics of metta. So these qualities and dhammas we are learning more about are not for the sake of collecting book study theoretical knowledge. They are for the development of direct understanding in daily life without any idea of a self having to do anything. The other day I checked the commentary to a verse that had been given about a slave-girl who became an arahant. Under several previous Buddhas, she’d learned and studied the Tipitaka and taught it, but her pride was an obstacle to even becoming a sotapanna. I was curious and also trying to be helpful by checking the text, but found it such an inspiration and good reminder that the study has to be in daily life when these realities arise, not in the book. Christine also asked about when we modestly consider others as being our superiors, why this would be a kind of conceit and it helped remind me over the weekend of various other conceits arising, especially when I read the suttas and references Victor, Ken O and others gave. Whenever we draw attention to ourselves, raise the banner, (even if nothing is said), find ourselves important, there is bound to be conceit, so different from mudita (sympathetic joy) when we just delight in others’ wisdom, good fortune or happiness. Yesterday, Jon and I were set to go off to the beach and had our bags packed when I started feeling unwell and running to the bathroom, vomitting and so on. Anything can happen, but even whilst in pain and vomitting or later tossing and turning in bed with a fever, unable to read or even listen to a tape or the radio, there were opportunites for wise reflection about paticca samuppada, for brief moments of awareness and understanding about ignorance, attachment, bodily painful experience, seeing, hearing, impatience, frustration and so on. None of these experiences were intended, wished, anticipated or ‘controlled’ in anyway. Perhaps I see it more like a snow-ball effect, given the right conditions like in the sutta about the chicks hatching (SN22:101 the Adze handle) regardless of any wishing on the part of the hen. And then, so very gradually, just as we read in the same sutta, the lines that can never be stressed enough: "When, bhikkhus, a carpenter or a carpenter's apprentice looks at the handle of his adze, he sees the impressions of his fingers and his thumb, but he does not know: 'So much of the adze handle has been worn away today, so much yesterday, so much earlier.' But when it has worn away, the knowledge occurs to him that it has worn away." I hope it gives the kind of answer you may be looking for, Jack. Metta, Sarah ====== 31609 From: christine_forsyth Date: Mon Mar 22, 2004 2:15am Subject: Fwd: Re: Paticcasamupada2 Dear Group, An additional post from RobK on Paticcasamupadda that may be of interest. metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- --- In Triplegem@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: Dear Christine, As usual your questions are genuine and get to the heart. The Buddha's teaching is about uncovering the nature of reality. What obscures reality is avijja, an immensely powerful force that won't disappear easily. It supports self view so that almost every action we do, almost every thought we think, revolve around ME. No surprise as wrong view is a conditioned dhamma, it has been like this since time began. The problem is that instead of learning to see into wrongview, instead of seeing into tanha, we are lead by them. Tanha and wrongview become our teacher and so, thinking we are escaping them, we actually strengthen them. And this is silabbataparamsa: we go down to the river to become baptized, or we follow the latest guru who has some method , or we fast, or sit without moving. We might have strange experiences in meditation and cling to those, hoping they show progress. Or we become very rigid in our sila. Our face might even have a glow because we are trying to stay so pure.These are gross examples, it can be more subtle. The PTS dictionary defines "silabbata-paramasa" as "the contagion of mere rule and ritual, the infatuation of good works, the delusion that they will suffice." The dictionary refers to Majjima Nikaya 64, were we read: "An untaught, ordinary person ... abides with a mind enslaved by adherence to rules and observances [silabbata-paramasa- pariyutthitena cetasa viharati]." Very common, just as self view is so common. If there is not enough honesty to look into our motives and clingings then the subtle types of silabbata will never be known, they will be clung to. Maybe all this life, and the next. When you write about how sometimes you understand and then sometimes that understanding goes away: isn't that how it should be? These things are conditioned, instead of being concerned by it see how natural it is, it is showing reality to you. I add some more comments below: In Triplegem@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Dear Robert, > > > And when you speak of discouragement and uncertainty as 'fit > objects for insight' - what exactly is insight? Is it just > the 'wordless knowing' that one is experiencing discouragement and > uncertainty, and being aware of its arising, standing and passing > away? > Again, does this just happen by itself, this insighting? =========== I think no one can tell us exactly how to have insight. But what happens is that- conditioned by right understanding - there are more opportunities for awareness to arise. It is a wordless knowing, but words can be there at that same time:). Yet not all wordless knowing is insight. When it is real, then whatever is the object, pleasant or unpleasant is neither clung to nor rejected. It is seen as only an element. ============= > > I'm especially grateful for your clear writing on the > Paticcasamupadda as it revolves in each moment. Your post takes it > out of the esoteric into the understandable by ordinary people. > > Kamma is so complicated - I have studied and intellectually > understood it, and when I read your posts I completely agree. But I > tend to think of only the big things in life as vipaka - a car > accident, receiving flowers, finding a lost necklace - so I forget > that kamma and vipaka operate on a micro level all the time. And I > tend to mix up how I feel with vipaka - if someone says something > discourteous and I feel shocked and upset - I tend to think of how I > feel as being the vipaka, when if I think about it logically, how I > feel is just more active kamma, and only the instant of first > hearing of the words was vipaka. > =================- You have good understanding of this. It think it will continue to become clearer the more there is understanding of the difference between concept and reality. The 4 jatis. ========= > Interesting that Anathapindika, a sotapanna, didn't know Sumana was > a sakadagami - would he have known he was a sotapanna, would she have > known she was a sakadagami? Clearly the question of someone who is > nothing. :-) ============= Think about it, to become a sotapann so much wisdom is needed. One will certainly not be deluded about their attainment if it is genuine. But the deluded one may think or hope that they have attained. RobertK > > Regarding silabbataparamasa - this is following rules and rituals > because of a belief that by doing so it will lead to enlightenment. > I can think of a number of things regularly viewed in that way by > many buddhists for just that purpose, including some types of sila > and mental development. I understand as you say about how easy it is > to go wrong, looking to control oneself and what one experiences. > What I don't understand is how it is possible to 'practice' the > factors for stream-entry without some form of control. I am > frustrated by this recurring inability to hold the understanding of > this truth. I know belief in control signifies a belief in a self > who can control - and sometimes knowing this is perfectly clear, but > all too soon understanding seems to slip away again. I know that > everything is conditioned, and so even our seeminly 'free' choices > are conditioned. > The Blessed One said, "Sariputta! Association with superior persons, > Sariputta, is a factor for stream-entry. Hearing the true Dhamma is a > factor for stream-entry. > Careful attention is a factor for stream-entry. Practice in > accordance with the Dhamma is a > factor for stream-entry." > For me to associate with superior persons (I take this to mean > Kalyanamitta), I understand that the 'wanting' is conditioned, but to > actually get to where kalyanamitta are involves choosing ahead of > time to take a long journey. Hearing the true Dhamma also involves > choice and control, careful attention does too, and whatever is meant > by 'practice in acordance with the Dhamma' would clearly involve > planned action, wouldn't it? If we are instructed to practise > bhavana, or develop satipatthana in the scriptures - doesn't that > imply the ability to 'do' and 'control'. > metta and peace, > Christine > ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- > --- End forwarded message --- 31610 From: hasituppada Date: Mon Mar 22, 2004 2:20am Subject: Re: 'dry' verse 'wet' insight Dear Jeff, Thankyou. We have already met Jeff, and we are spiritual friends (kalyana mitta). We are afterall nama-rupa. Rupa is the temporary abode of the nama The rupa dies and perishes and the mind continues its voyage through samasara, and nama (mind) has no barriers. Therefore, Jeff our minds have met. Even some ignorant cowboys may have potential great minds. About your practice, I notice you have tremendous confidence in Buddha Dhamma and Sangha. It is natural there are intermittent moments of doubt. Perseverance in the correct path is essential for correct effort to reach the object. A self-retreat is sometime helpful for intense mindful awareness. If you get into Samadhi very quickly it is not necessary to predetermine the time for each stage of Jhana. Be quite aware of your jhana moments, there is always a "shift" of the body and the mind becomes very calm,silent and alert. And when that lertness disappears at each stage, you will know you are passing on to the next stage. It is good to train yourself to "go to" each level of Jhana and "come out of it". When you are well trained you may be able to go to each level, and stay in it for a few minutes, before going to the next (etc). But what is important is meditation on the four foundations (or one of the four)after the last (forth) jhana moment. That would be vipassana, and in vipassana too you will have more subtle Vipassana Jhanas. To go to the "arupa" jhana, after the fourth "rupa" jhana, one need not meditate. By determination after the fourth jhana one may go to the arupa jahanas, stage by stage. That is what my teachers said. Please continue what you are doing without changing, I am sure you will meet with success. May you be very happy, Jeff. With metta, Hasituppada. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jeffrey Brooks wrote: > Hello Hasituppada, so well said, and thank-you for > clarifying, yes you are right of course we simply use > "conventional terms" as a means of communication. As > it is often said it is like pointing at the moon to a > blind person. We can only do our best with the > description so that person will simply sit down and > have the experience. > > You have said so many excellent things I would be > honored to meet you some day. I am sure we would be > good friends. <.....> 31611 From: Date: Mon Mar 22, 2004 0:21am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: On Control Hi, Ken (and Swee Boon) - In a message dated 3/22/04 12:05:44 AM Eastern Standard Time, ashkenn2k@y... writes: > To me, only with an > identity then there will be control. > ========================= I have an opinion about this: It seems to me that among the various sorts of experience that one has, there are varying degrees of how "personal" they seem to us. In varying manners and degrees, for different ones of us, some kinds of experience are more difficult for us to feel their impersonality. In this regard, I imagine that many of us find sense of touch more "personal" (and likely to be thought of as "mine" and identified with a "me") than sight or smell, for example. It is easier for some to think of seeing and smelling occuring without there being a seer or smeller, than for there to be touching without one who touches. I would bet that many of us find mental phenomena such as thoughts, feelings, and emotions even more "me" than touch. Among the phenomena most easily associated with "me and mine," I suspect, are intending, inclining to, and willing. But *all* of these are just impersonal, empty phenomena rolling on. No identity or self is required for volitional influence, but that sort of phenomenon easily lends itself to the sense of a personal identity/self. We almost automatically think that there can be no influencing, controlling, and coordinating without there being an influencer, controller, and coordinator - in short, without there being an agent "in charge." But this is just avijja cavorting where it finds a play area in our psyche. ;-) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 31612 From: Jeffrey Brooks Date: Mon Mar 22, 2004 5:54am Subject: Re: [dsg] 'dry' verse 'wet' insight Hello Hasituppada, and thank-you for your kindness and your kind reply and your gracious friendship. Yes I agree with you the perceived barriers are but nama-rupa, which seems to both delight and confuse others, and perhaps make me only laugh from time to time. Yes, I do have a great confidence in the Buddha and his dhamma, because it has given me a great consolation, and I am also confident that a community (sangha) of loving spiritual friends (kalyana mitta) can emerge from that prefect and excellent path to freedom (dhamma). Yes, I agree with you regarding self-retreat. It is an invaluable asset on this path to freedom. One could say that I am always in self retreat living as I do without a sangha but always seeking community among those who I meet. I also frequently retreat into secret canyons in this desert where there is such a stillness that one can hear one's own heart beating and blood pumping in the brain. Yes, you are right I get into "Samadhi very quickly," as soon as I sit and close my eyes. So, I have found it is not necessary to set a "predetermined time" for each "stage of Jhana," and since jhana has been a regular feature of my samadhi for 30 years, I find no need to even have concern over the "stage of Jhana." I simply sit mindful of the four cornerstones with depth leading to cessation as my only object. I endeavor to be mindful in every moment, but perhaps it is due to having become saturated and suffused with jhana, that I do not experience a disappearing of alertness at each stage of jhana. The stages are simply noted passages and shifts in the four cornerstones (breath, body, senses and mind). I use the term 'cornerstones' instead of 'foundations' for Maha-satipatthana, because simple peasant wisdom here knows a house may only have one foundation, but it can have four cornerstones. While I have found insight (vipassana) is a natural aspect of my moment to moment life, either in meditation (samadhi) or as I move throughout the day. However, I do not find there has ever been a jhana without insight, nor has there been insight without tranquillity, stillness and calm (jhana). This is why I say for me there is no jhana without vipassana, and no vipassana without jhana. When arupa jhanas emerge they emerge on their own with no determination on my part, because when they emerge I am at such a place of cessation of volition that to determine a thing is not at all present within me. So, when an arupa jhana emerges it simply springs forth like a flower blossoms from its stock. The plant does not say, "Come forth ye flower." The flower just blooms here and there on a plant. Sometimes that bloom is this arupa jhana, and sometimes is another. If I find myself only in an Infinite Space domain, I am not disappointed that I only found infinite space. If I find myself in Infinite Time, I am not disappointed, nor am I disappointed to find myself merged with Indra's Net of Infinite Being, nor in that place of cessation of all sense contact. In each place I find a "pleasant abiding in the here and now" of unbroken awareness that is saturated and suffused with a pleasure that is not "born of sense contact." Kindest of regards, Jeff Brooks -------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2004 10:20:41 -0000 From: "hasituppada" Subject: Re: 'dry' verse 'wet' insight Dear Jeff, Thankyou. We have already met Jeff, and we are spiritual friends (kalyana mitta). We are afterall nama-rupa. Rupa is the temporary abode of the nama The rupa dies and perishes and the mind continues its voyage through samasara, and nama (mind) has no barriers. Therefore, Jeff our minds have met. <....> 31613 From: Date: Mon Mar 22, 2004 1:05am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: clearing up misunderstandings Hi, Sarah - I'll just insert a few comments below in context. In a message dated 3/22/04 3:28:59 AM Eastern Standard Time, sarahdhhk@y... writes: > > Hi Howard, > > I was down with a 24hour food posioning attack yesterday (Jon has a milder > version still), so I’m behind on my reading of posts and haven’t yet > followed your side-thread with him or others. I’m replying now to parts of > your two posts to me. > ------------------------------------------------ Howard: Sorry about how you two have been. Not fun, I know! ------------------------------------------------ > > --- upasaka@a... wrote: > > I just reread this reply of mine and I am unhappy with it. I am > >sorry > >I didn't use a much softer tone. My post obviously expresses annoyance, > >which > >is my problem, not yours. > .... > S: I appreciate your kind words here, Howard, but I’d also like to ‘back > off’. When I wrote to you before, it was at the end of an afternoon of > writing, including typing out a long passage from Dispeller, that as usual > had taken far longer than anticipated. I had wanted to respond to you, but > your post was at the bottom of the pile and I was left with a rushed five > minutes before dashing out for Tai-chi. It’s not surprising at all that > your reacted as you did, especially when it comes to the topic of > experiences. So, I apologise too;-) > -------------------------------------------------- Howard: Thank you! It's always a pleasure interacting with you, Sarah. :-) --------------------------------------------------- > .... > > I found it silly and a bit of a put-down when you requested a > >"reference" that might make it believable to you that I actually > >experienced what I > >did directly experience. That was how I reacted, which probably was well > > > >off-base and surely was a thrashing about of ego! > .... > S: Oh well, I’m sure there’s plenty of that common problem all round > here;-. Back to your earlier post. Perhaps we are using the word ‘object’ > in different ways, so I’d like to clarify and to say we can refer to that > which is seen or heard, for example, by using any term. It’s not > important. > .... > H: > As far as your requirements are concerned I can't say, but the > > >following line of thinking does occur: You believe, I think, that there > >is, in > >reality, no knowing subject. > ... > S: No self. We both agree. > ... > >Now I'm not clear on what you consider > >'object' or > >'arammana' to mean, but I assume that you consider subject and object to > >be > >mutually dependent. > .... > S: No, in the way I use ‘object’ or arammana as used in the texts, it > represents the phenomena which are experienced through the 6 door-ways > regardless of any wisdom or lack of. So there is seeing or hearing now and > that which is seen, visible data or other sense door objects, but no > subject or self. -------------------------------------------------- Howard: Okay, then. We are not using the word in exactly the same way. I definitely accept that there is always content to experience, of various sorts. I take 'object', however, as indicating something facing a "subject" and being apprehended dualistically by that subject. That is the way our experience usually appears. There is, indeed, content of visual, auditory etc experience. In fact, experience is nothing more than presence of experiential content. If that is what is meant by arammana, then I believe in it! But if there is the additional sense of it being a thing apprehended by a separate knowing, then 'arammana' means what I call an "object" grasped by a knowing "subject". My experience consisted in a disappearence of knowing separate from and facing a known. That mode of experience *was* experiencing, but there was neither subject nor object, neither separate nor identical - there was just the experience. The content was present, no different than it usually is - sights, sounds, etc all the same, and yet, at the same time, the experience was radically different. ---------------------------------------------------------- > .... > >If you do, then with no subject there is no object. > >If, on the > >other hand, you treat the word 'object' to mean nothing more than > >"phenomenon" > >or "(content of) experience", then yes, experience of a nondual sort, > >continues even when there is no sense of subject and its objects, and > >there is content > >to such experience, but I would consider defining 'arammana' as > >"experience" > >to be an inadequate and misleading definition. > .... > S: I would too. I would define the seeing or hearing as experienced and > the visible or heard as the arammana of those experiences. Whether this is > called ‘dual’ or ‘non-dual’ or anything else doesn’t really bother me. ------------------------------------------------- Howard: It is experienced as the content of the experience. I could say that it is "self-experiencing," except that such terminology is literally false and is misleading. It still suggests a connecting of two things, but the two now being coalesced into one - a reflexive knowing. But it is *not* reflexive. -------------------------------------------------- > > An ‘enlightened’ experience as I understand it, is not the loss of objects > but the full understanding of the objects experienced as anicca, dukkha > and anatta. This is why the path begins with the clear comprehending of > nama and rupa, not the clear comprehending of experiencing and eradication > of objects of experience. --------------------------------------------------- Howard: I wouldn't make a claim about an "enlightenment experience". That would be way too grandiose. An enlightenment experience would be an awakening, a glimpse of nibbana, a taste of freedom. How my "insight experience" should be characterized I can't say, and what it might have led to I can't say. Unfortunately, it terrified me, and I ran away from it. (But still it was beneficial.) -------------------------------------------------- > > We read again and again in the suttas about the understanding and > detachment towards the objects experienced through the senses and the > understanding of the dangers of attachment and proliferation with regards > to these objects. > > With regard to the Kalaka sutta which Swee Boon raised; > >http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an04-024.html > > I think as Ken O indicated, it is clearly showing that in the case of the > Buddha, there is no proliferation or unwholesome dwelling (ma~n~nati) on > account of what is seen, heard and so on. No idea of self at all. > > In the Udana comy (PTS), Mucalinda chapter [132], the same lines from the > Kalaka sutta are quoted as indicating the depth of knowledge of the > Tathagata who knew all sense objects "either by way of its being desirable > or undesirable and so on, or by way of whichever term is applicable in the > case of things seen, heard, sensed and cognised, under countless names, in > thirteen cycles in fifty-two methods,.......For this was said by the Lord: > ‘That which,monks, is, for this world with its devas..with its (generation > of (devas and men, a thing seen, heard.....that do I know....that have I > come directly to know, for the Tathagata is that fathomed, to that the > Tathagata does not attend.’(A ii25). Thus he is Tathagata, in that it was > of that which is accordant (tatha) that he was a seer (dassitaaya). And in > this connection, the origin of the word ‘Tathaagata’ is to be understood > (to lie) in the sense of ‘accordant seeing’ (tathadassii).â€? > ... > <...> > It is still the case that I haven't the slightest doubt that my > >experience consisted of the absence of a dualistic, knowing-known event, > >and that > >while there was multisensory experiential content, there yet was no > >knowing that > >was separate from the content, and the content at no time was an object > >of > >such a subjective knowing. The experience was no more subjective than > >objective, > >and no more objective than subjective. > .... > S: Again, there may be some confusion with terms. At this moment, if there > is awareness of say feeling or hardness, just that reality ‘appears’ > momentarily as it is. There is no thought about this being an object or > any other label. Still, we can say that awareness has to be aware of a > nama or a rupa and in this sense even when we talking about the > development of satipatthana, there is always an object present and a citta > experiencing the object. The reason I asked for a reference to discuss > further was because I felt we were reaching an impasse of comparing > different, seemingly contradictory experiences. > .... > >And it is misleading to say it > >was > >both, and it is misleading to say it was neither. This is the way it > >was, and the > >Kalakarama Sutta really does describe it well. But I recognize that my > >claimed lack of doubt in the matter should in no way be satisfactory for > >you. > .... > S: Well, I’ll be interested in your further comments on the sutta above.As > I say, I think there may be some misunderstanding still in terminology. > For example, when we read in suttas like SN 35:26 (4) Understanding, about > ‘understanding the all’ as including the eye, forms, eye-consciousness, > eye-contact,feelings and so on by developing dispassion which leads to > abandoning. Would you suggests that when these actualities are understood > that they are not the objects of cittas with understanding? > ... > > I apologize for my ego-bound annoyance, and, more importantly, I > >apologize for letting it be expressed with a flavor of sharpness in my > >post to you. > >I am particularly displeased with the sarcastic second sentence of mine > >that > >I quote above. Sarcasm is far from right speech. Clearly, my experience, > >which > >produced some very important and very useful fallout in my life, still > >very > >much left my ego sense well intact! ;-) > .... > S: When I read your comment, I just thought “Oh, I’ve stepped on an > egg-shell....need to be more considerate, even when posting in hasteâ€?, so > it was a useful reflection for me. As Nina sort of said, we’re all like > babies or baby pups here really. It’s a live list and our various foibles > are bound to surface when we write as regularly as some of us do. > > I’ve left aside a couple of comments on Vinnana in D.O. as there will be > plenty of opportuntities when we get to it in the D.O. corner. > > Finally, given that all past wondrous experiences or insights have long > since gone, do you think there is any value in reflecting further on them > rather than understanding present dhammas? > ---------------------------------------------------- Howard: I think there is some value in remembering what the experience was like, though the quality of such memory degrades quickly . But heightened attention to and mindfulness of current experience, *current* experience being all there ever is, is certainly of primary importance. ----------------------------------------------------- > > Metta, > > Sarah ========================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 31614 From: Ken O Date: Mon Mar 22, 2004 6:11am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: On Control Hi Howard > ========================= > I have an opinion about this: k: That does not surprise me at all ;-). H: We almost automatically think that there can be no influencing, controlling, and coordinating without there being an influencer, controller, and coordinator - in short, without there being an agent "in charge." k: this is not what I say. Let me quote you a summarised Visud passage. In the Visud, Chapter XX 96 - 103 He understand thus “there is no heap or store of unarisen mentality-materiality [existing] prior to it arising. When it arises, it does not come from any heap or store; and when it ceases, it does not go in any direction. After knowing the above knowledge, he sees arising of materiality with the arising of ignorance, with the arising of craving, with the arising of kamma, with the arising of the materiality aggregate (i.e. Nutriment). He sees the fall of the materiality in the sense of condition cessation with the cessation of ignorance, with the cessation of craving, with the cessation of kamma, with the cessation of the materiality aggregate (i.e. Nutriment). Likewise the same for the other three mentality aggregates, change the nutriment to contact for feelings, preception and formaton aggregates as for consciousness, change the nutriment to mentality-materiality. When he thus see rise and fall in the two ways, according to condition, according to instant, the several truths (i.e. 4NT), aspect of the dependent origination, methods and and characteristics become evident to him. The aspect of dependent origination – refers to understanding the forward order (when this exist, that comes to be), in reverse order (when this does not exist, that does not come to be). The method – is about knowing that there is cause and fruit, the view of annihilation view is abandon. Knowing that in an instant that each [state] is new [as it arises] (this is talking about one citta moment) – the eternity view is abandon The characteristics of not self becomes evident to him through seeing rise according to condition owing to this discovery that the states have no curiosity and that their existence depends upon conditions. Note the last paragraph <> I rest my case. If we can change conditions to influence these conditions, this statement of DO will not be true. In fact if we can influence or there is control, this statement will not be true. Ken O 31615 From: abhidhammika Date: Mon Mar 22, 2004 6:42am Subject: Vipassanaa As A Synonym Of Anupassanaa In Satipa.t.thaana Suttam Dear DSG dhamma friends, Stephen has asked me if the term "vipassanaa" occurs in Satipa.t.thaana Suttam, and if it can be found in other Suttams as well. The following is my positive answers to his questions. I also gave further explanations on the expressions "Ajjattam" and "Bahiddhaa" as used in Mahaa Satipa.t.thaana Suttam. Please enjoy! :-) Suan _______ _______ ________ _____ Dear Stephen and all How are you? Glad to hear from you. 1. Stephen wrote: "I also have two questions. >"Also very interested by the "in this way he remains focussed >internally on..."" > >The Pali expression in the third quote is "Iti ajjattam vaa kaaye >kaayaanupassii viharati". > >We could translate the third Pali expression as "Thus, the monk lives >as an observer / watcher of the bodily phenomena in the body >privately." Here "ajjattam, internally" refers to the bodily >phenomena with respect to one's body. Hence, privately! Why is watching bodily phenomena internal or private?" ___________ ______ _____ Suan: Before I answer, I would like to modify slightly my translation as follows. "Thus, the monk lives as a wise observer / watcher of the bodily phenomena in the body privately." The commentary on Mahaasatipa.t.thaana Suttam explained the expressions "Iti ajjattam vaa .../ bahiddhaa vaa ..." with regard to the observation practice of exhalation and inhalation as follows. "Internally or privately" means one's body of exhalation and inhalation while "externally" refers to other people's bodies of exhalations and inhalations. Please remember that the Section under discussion is how to live observing wisely the bodily functions of breathing out and breathing in. Thus, the adverb "internally" specifies one's bodily functions of exhalation and inhalation while the adverb "externally" specifies other people's bodily functions of breathing out and breathing in. Here ends Suan's answer to Stephen's first question. ______________________________________________________ 2. Stephen's second question follows. "And second, the obvious question: Does the word "vipassana" occur in the Satipatthana sutta as in your subject heading? I have no problems equating the two, but is it actually sutta based?" ________ _______ _______ _____ Suan answered thus. The word "ANUPASSII" as in "Kaayaanupassii" occurs many times in the Satipa.t.thaana Suttam. Anupassii, when meaning a wise observer, is one who has "Anupassanaa". When we have the term "Anupassanaa", this amounts to having the term "Vipassanaa" as well. Pali quote coming! Both the terms "anupassanaa" and "vipassanaa" in their turn are merely the synonyms of the term "paññaa". Please view the following Pali quote from Section 357, Vibha~nga, the second Abhidhamma Pi.taka text. This quote defines the term "Anupassii" by simple asking "What is anupassanaa (katamaa anupassanaa)?" "Vibha~nge pana anupassiiti tattha "katamaa anupassanaa? Yaa paññaa pajaananaa vicayo pavicayo dhammavicayo sallakkha.naa upalakkha.naa paccupalakkha.naa pa.n.diccam kosallam nepuññam vebhabyaa cintaa upaparikkhaa bhuurii medhaa pari.naayikaa VIPASSANAA sampajaññam patodo paññaa paññindriyam paññaabalam paññaasattham paññaa paasaado paññaa-aaloko paññaa-obhaaso paññaapajjoto paññaa ratanam amoho dhammavicayo sammaadi.t.thi, ayam vuccati anupassanaa." Did you see the term "vipassanaa" in capital letters? Please also check other synonyms such as Sammaadi.t.thi (the Right View) as the last one. Stephen's second question has the following sub-question. "but is it actually sutta based?" Yes, the term "vipassanaa" occurs in all the Suttam Nikaayas. For example, Sangiiti Suttam, Paathikavaggo, in Diigha Nikaayo. Similarly, in Majjhima Nikkaayo, Samyutta Nikkayo, Anguttara Nikkaayo, and Khuddaka Nikaayo. Many times! I hope my post covered your questions to some degree. With regards, Suan http://www.bodhiology.org (oreznoone@a... wrote: Hello Suan, all This question of 'internally' and 'externally' came up recently; this phrase occurs in a number of suttas. Your post, which I found quite interesting, only covers the first half. What can you make of the second -- externally - - say just in the context of the Satipatthana sutta (i.e., without assuming that all such usages mean just the same)? ___________________________________________________________ Here's a refresher, using part of a reply I never posted, on a suggestion by Victor, though the phrase here comes from another sutta (SN XXII.48: Khandha Sutta). >Internal aggregates include everything in the world that comes into >my experience. >External aggregates include everything in the world that comes into >others' experience. So the rupa (body) aggregate named 'stephen' would also consist of some items unperceived by me but perceived by others; and this is true, though in special circumstances I might be able to see, for instance, inside my own eye, or my liver. One might also have feelings (sankhara) that others can perceive but their 'owner' could not, for instance jealousy. Many might know this of someone's behavior except the person who's behavior it was; he might even deny it, or come to understand that he was in fact jealous by others explaining his actions to him. But vinnana? Or sanna? How could these be perceivable by another? Even vedana seems doubtful. So I'm doubtful, though this seems to be an obvious take on the meaning. Rather than self and others my thought was one person, looking inward and outward, namely observing themself and others. This corresponds to the Mahahatthipadopama sutta (MN #28 ) where one is to meditate on the elements, both internally and externally: "I am aware of the earth element in me. I am not the earth element...outside me...I am not..." The idea here seems to be to break down the inside / outside distinction, to have no boundary between the person and the world: they are the same elements, and they are both not the self. But I have some problems with this reading as well, even though I think it's right. (It may also be in harmony with Herman's earlier post on this subject.) ____________________________________________________________ I also have two questions. >"Also very interested by the "in this way he remains focussed >internally on..."" > >The Pali expression in the third quote is "Iti ajjattam vaa kaaye >kaayaanupassii viharati". > >We could translate the third Pali expression as "Thus, the monk lives >as an observer / watcher of the bodily phenomena in the body >privately." Here "ajjattam, internally" refers to the bodily >phenomena with respect to one's body. Hence, privately! Why is watching bodily phenomena internal or private? That is, someone else could just as well watch / observe the positions of my body. Does this mean one is attending to some kinesthetic or proprioceptive sensations (so that, for instance, one knows the position of their arm in the dark, or relation to downwardness / gravity, due to internal sensations)? I note that these aren't even mentioned as senses in the suttas, nor probably in the commentaries (though they are so understood, among others, now). And second, the obvious question: Does the word "vipassana" occur in the Satipatthana sutta as in your subject heading? I have no problems equating the two, but is it actually sutta based? I also have no problems interpreting the sutta as the Buddha's Teachings On Pure Rigpa. Among others. metta, stephen 31616 From: Date: Mon Mar 22, 2004 2:51am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: On Control Hi, Ken - In a message dated 3/22/04 9:13:28 AM Eastern Standard Time, ashkenn2k@y... writes: > > Hi Howard > > >========================= > > I have an opinion about this: > > k: That does not surprise me at all ;-). > > H: We almost automatically think that there can be no influencing, > controlling, and coordinating without there being an influencer, > controller, and coordinator - in short, without there being an agent > "in charge." > > k: this is not what I say. > -------------------------------------------------- Howard: I don't say that you think there is a controller. I'm sure you do not. What I say is that you seem to think that the concept of "control" implies a controller. I say that it does not. Cetana is the primary impulsive operation of influencing, coordinating, and fabricating - the central sankharic operation, and it is cetana that I mean by "influencing"/"controlling". It is impersonal, but it is rarely thought of so. ------------------------------------------------- Let me quote you a summarised Visud> > passage. In the Visud, Chapter XX 96 - 103 > He understand thus “there is no heap or store of unarisen > mentality-materiality [existing] prior to it arising. When it > arises, it does not come from any heap or store; and when it ceases, > it does not go in any direction. > ------------------------------------------------ Howard: That sure sounds right to me! ----------------------------------------------- > > After knowing the above knowledge, he sees arising of materiality > with the arising of ignorance, with the arising of craving, with the > arising of kamma, with the arising of the materiality aggregate > (i.e. Nutriment). He sees the fall of the materiality in the sense > of condition cessation with the cessation of ignorance, with the > cessation of craving, with the cessation of kamma, with the cessation > of the materiality aggregate (i.e. Nutriment). Likewise the same > for the other three mentality aggregates, change the nutriment to > contact for feelings, preception and formaton aggregates as for > consciousness, change the nutriment to mentality-materiality. > > When he thus see rise and fall in the two ways, according to > condition, according to instant, the several truths (i.e. 4NT), > aspect of the dependent origination, methods and and characteristics > become evident to him. > > The aspect of dependent origination – refers to understanding the > forward order (when this exist, that comes to be), in reverse order > (when this does not exist, that does not come to be). > > The method – is about knowing that there is cause and fruit, the view > of annihilation view is abandon. Knowing that in an instant that > each [state] is new [as it arises] (this is talking about one citta > moment) – the eternity view is abandon > > The characteristics of not self becomes evident to him through seeing > rise according to condition owing to this discovery that the states > have no curiosity and that their existence depends upon conditions. > > Note the last paragraph < conditons>> I rest my case. > -------------------------------------------------- Howard: I don't know what "case" you are resting or how what you said and quoted in the foregoing is supposed to be something I would object to. -------------------------------------------------- If we can change conditions to> > influence these conditions, this statement of DO will not be true. > In fact if we can influence or there is control, this statement will > not be true. > ------------------------------------------------- Howard: I don't know what you are talking about. It still seems that you want to view influence as something personal, pertaining to an agent. Cetana is an operation that has consequences. There is kamma and there are the results of kamma. And kamma (volition) is impersonal, conditioned, and empty of own-being. How do we differ except for your interpreting the concept of influence or control to imply an influencer or controller? --------------------------------------------------- > > > Ken O > ========================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 31617 From: Ken O Date: Mon Mar 22, 2004 8:07am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: On Control HI Howard ------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > I don't know what you are talking about. It still seems that > you want to view influence as something personal, pertaining to an agent. Cetana is an operation that has consequences. There is kamma and there are the results of kamma. And kamma (volition) is impersonal, conditioned, and empty of own-being. How do we differ except for your interpreting the concept of influence or control to imply an influencer or controller? > --------------------------------------------------- k: Cetana can neither control or influence, it can neither define as such also. Control or influence are mental construct and not reality. Cetana is purely a volition. Its principle is only cause and effect as you said. Cause and effect is not an influence, nor a control, or define as such, it is simply natural law like gravity, impersonal, conditioned and empty of own-being ;-). It does not influence effect, it just produce effect from a cause. I hope that clarifies. Ken O 31618 From: Date: Mon Mar 22, 2004 3:13am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: On Control Hi again, Ken - In a message dated 3/22/04 10:53:14 AM Eastern Standard Time, upasaka@a... writes: > If we can change conditions to> > >influence these conditions, this statement of DO will not be true. > >In fact if we can influence or there is control, this statement will > >not be true. > > > ------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > I don't know what you are talking about. It still seems that you want > to view influence as something personal, pertaining to an agent. Cetana is > an > operation that has consequences. There is kamma and there are the results of > > kamma. And kamma (volition) is impersonal, conditioned, and empty of > own-being. > How do we differ except for your interpreting the concept of influence or > control to imply an influencer or controller? > ========================= There is a point with regard to this that I think I should make. I *do* agree that the sankhara of D.O., as with all the links therein, pertain to events that are defiled by ignorance, most particularly by the sense of self. While all elements of the sankhara khandha are, in themselves, impersonal, conditioned, and empty of own-being, as they occur in the scheme of D.O., they are all infected by atta-sense, and they carry that sense of self as an infection being transmitted from link to link. I see ignorance as mainly atta-sense. That atta-sense is transmitted through infected sankharic elements (cetasikas). When ignorance is uprooted, cetana still operates, but neutrally, and not in a self-oriented fashion. There will still be chanda, but no longer tanha. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 31619 From: Date: Mon Mar 22, 2004 3:17am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: On Control Hi, Ken - In a message dated 3/22/04 11:10:53 AM Eastern Standard Time, ashkenn2k@y... writes: > HI Howard > > ------------------------------------------------- > >Howard: > > I don't know what you are talking about. It still seems that > >you want to view influence as something personal, pertaining to an > agent. Cetana is an operation that has consequences. There is kamma > and there are the results of kamma. And kamma (volition) is > impersonal, conditioned, and empty of own-being. How do we differ > except for your interpreting the concept of influence or control to > imply an influencer or controller? > >--------------------------------------------------- > > k: Cetana can neither control or influence, it can neither define as > such also. Control or influence are mental construct and not reality. > Cetana is purely a volition. Its principle is only cause and effect > as you said. Cause and effect is not an influence, nor a control, or > define as such, it is simply natural law like gravity, impersonal, > conditioned and empty of own-being ;-). It does not influence effect, > it just produce effect from a cause. I hope that clarifies. ----------------------------------------- Howard: Nope, not at all! ;-)) I just see that you dislike the words 'influence' and 'control'. I will try to remember to refrain from using them in your presence. ;-) ---------------------------------------- > > > Ken O > ========================= With uncontrolled metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 31620 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Mon Mar 22, 2004 9:09am Subject: Recognizing the Dhamma - 5. Contentment (§ 5.2.) § 5.2. "And how is a monk content? Just as a bird, wherever it goes, flies with its wings as its only burden; so too is he content with a set of robes to provide for his body and alms food to provide for his hunger. Wherever he goes, he takes only his barest necessities along. This is how a monk is content. [DN 2] http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/study/recognizing.html#contentment 31621 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Mon Mar 22, 2004 9:24am Subject: Re: Right understanding for beginners ( was Sammaditthi#1492) Hi Ken and Philip, Thank you, Ken, for your message. Philip, I would also recommend this page in Access To Insight on right view: Right View samma ditthi http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/samma-ditthi.html as well as the following discourses: Majjhima Nikaya 9 Sammaditthi Sutta The Discourse on Right View http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/majjhima/mn009.html Anguttara Nikaya X.93 Ditthi Sutta Views http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an10-093.html Metta, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Philip" wrote: > > Hello Ken, Victor and all. > > Thank you for your concern, Ken. I am taking everything with a > grain of salt these days, staying open to all views, or trying to, to > avoid my past error of being convinced that walking on only one side > of the sidewalk is Right. > > I found this in the "Assumptions" sutta that Victor was kind > enough to link me to. > > "The five faculties, monks, continue as they were. And with regard > to them the well-instructed disciple of the noble ones abandons > ignorance and gives rise to clear knowing. Owing to the fading of > ignorance and the arising of clear knowing, (the thoughts) -- 'I > am,' 'I am this,' 'I shall be,' 'I shall not be,' 'I shall be > possessed of form,' 'I shall be formless,' 'I shall be percipient > (conscious),' 'I shall be non-percipient,' and 'I shall be neither > percipient nor non-percipient' -- do not occur to him." > > I think I can say - with "I" used as always for convenience - that > I have at least come to enough understanding to be able to put myself > in with the "well-instructed disciple" above. A beginner's right > understanding is well described here. I have not learned enough about > or reflected enough in the light of abhidhamma to be able to join in > the kind of discussion which will probably ensue from Victor's pst, > but the basic right understanding referred to above is gradually > rising, and I am very grateful to this group for that. > > Metta, > Phil > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" > wrote: > > Hi Victor and Philip (and all), > > > > I seem to have slunk back into `lurking' mode -- which is easy to > do > > when there are so many excellent posts to read. However, I feel > > compelled to interject: > > > > Philip has reminded us; `everything we mistake for self is just > nama > > and rupa.' > > > > Victor has corrected him (?!) by saying; `nama and rupa should be > > seen as not self.' > > > > I am worried that Philip will not realise what Victor means by > > this. Similar misunderstandings have happened many times before, > > resulting in weeks (sometimes months) of frustrating discussion > from > > which no agreement has been reached. > > > > Victor, please make clear that you are asserting there IS a self > ?E > a > > self that is neither nama nor rupa. Then, discussion can proceed > > productively with all parties fully informed. > > > > Kind regards, > > Ken H 31622 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Mon Mar 22, 2004 9:40am Subject: Re: Recognizing the Dhamma - 5. Contentment (§ 5.2.) Hi all, Any suggestion for living in contentment as a layperson? Metta, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "yu_zhonghao" wrote: > § 5.2. > "And how is a monk content? Just as a bird, wherever it goes, flies > with its wings as its only burden; so too is he content with a set > of robes to provide for his body and alms food to provide for his > hunger. Wherever he goes, he takes only his barest necessities > along. This is how a monk is content. > > [DN 2] > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/study/recognizing.html#contentment 31623 From: hasituppada Date: Mon Mar 22, 2004 9:24am Subject: Re: On Control Friend Swee Boon, Please let me know whether the reference you have given is to the Gaddula Sutta (1) and (2). I read the two Suttas at" http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn22-099.htmlbut I did not find your quote: "Or, in one who doesn't assume control to be the self, he discerns control as control. He discerns control arises without a self. He discerns control falls away without a self." It may be that did not read the Suttas referred to well. Therefore,could you please let me know from where you got this particular quote ? with metta, Hasituppada. ____________________________________________________________________ Hi Group, Unable to reconcile with the doctrine of anatta, he wrongly discerns 'there is no volitions'. Or, in one who assumes control to be the self, he does not discern control as control. Unable to reconcile with the doctrine of anatta, he wrongly discerns 'there is no control'. Regards, Swee Boon 31624 From: icarofranca Date: Mon Mar 22, 2004 10:04am Subject: Re: [dsg] groups (kalapa) Dear Larry > > Huh??? What??? Never mind. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Quid ? Quod ?? Quomodo ??? --------------------------------------------------------------------- Insight into anatta can be > found in group dynamics. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Since you don't begin thinking that group dynamics are alike Verbal Families in Hebraic language (Lamed Ain, Pei Aleph, Ain Ain, etc), it's O.K. for me! Mettaya, ícaro 31625 From: Date: Mon Mar 22, 2004 5:20am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: On Control Hi, Hasituppada and Swee Boon - In a message dated 3/22/04 1:06:45 PM Eastern Standard Time, hasituppada@y... writes: > > Friend Swee Boon, > > Please let me know whether the reference you have given is to the > Gaddula Sutta (1) and (2). I read the two Suttas at" > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn22-099.htmlbut > > I did not find your quote: "Or, in one who doesn't assume control to > be the self, he discerns control as control. He discerns control > arises without a self. He discerns control falls away without a > self." > > It may be that did not read the Suttas referred to well. > Therefore,could you please let me know from where you got this > particular quote ? > > with metta, > Hasituppada. > ============================== Much as I regret to say it, I don't find that in sn22-099 or in sn22-100 either. Were you paraphrasing or interpolating, Swee Boon, or was the wrong sutta referenced? With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 31626 From: icarofranca Date: Mon Mar 22, 2004 10:21am Subject: Re: [dsg] groups (kalapa) Typo (?) > Since you don't begin thinking that group dynamics are alike > Verbal Families in Hebraic language (Lamed Ain, Pei Aleph, Ain Ain, > etc), it's O.K. for me! -------------------------------------------------------------------- Could I better post "Hebrew Language" ? Hebrew or Hebraic ? The Cambridge Dictionary has the two forms!!! Mettaya, ícaro 31627 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Mar 22, 2004 10:34am Subject: Re: [dsg] Fwd: Re: Paticcasamupada2 Dear Christine, Many thanks to Robert and also to you for forwarding this beautiful post. Some time ago we talked about Sumana. I am glad that here the relevance of D.O to the present moment is stressed. Nina. op 21-03-2004 21:20 schreef christine_forsyth op cforsyth@v...: > --- In Triplegem@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > --- > From the Nidana- Vagga of the Samyutta Nikaya: > The Buddha said: I will teach you, monks, the origin of repeated > birth and > passing away of beings in this world. 31628 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Mar 22, 2004 10:34am Subject: Vis. XIV, 66, notes The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) Ch. XIV 66. 20. 'Growth of matter' has the characteristic of setting up. Its function is to make material instances emerge in the first instance. It is manifested as launching; or it is manifested as the completed state. Its proximate cause is grown matter. N: launching is the translation of niyyaatana: the Tiika explains: as it were making them go out, leading them on (niyyaatento viya). 21. 'Continuity of matter' has the characteristic of occurrence. Its function is to anchor. N: to anchor: in Pali: anuppabandhana: to follow immediately.The Tiika explains: Anuppabandhanarasaati pubbaaparavasena anu anu pabandhanakiccaa. As to the words, its function is following closely, its task is following along in view of what proceeds and what follows. N: Thus, initial arising is followed immediately by continuation. Vis text: It is manifested as non-interruption. Its proximate cause is matter that is anchored. N: It was explained by A. Sujin recently: each rúpa must arise and fall away, but there is continuation before it decays and falls away. There must be four characteristics, not three. However, there are different methods of teaching. Vis: Both of these are terms for matter at its birth; but owing to difference of mode, and according to [different persons'] susceptibility to instruction the teaching in the summary (uddesa) in the Dhammasa.ngani is given as 'growth and continuity' (cf. Dhs. 596); N: according to [different persons'] susceptibility to instruction. The Tiika says; veneyyavasena: for the sake of people that are capable of being taught. The teaching was adapted to the capabilities of different people. Vis: but since there is here no difference in meaning, consequently in the description (niddesa) of these words, 'the setting up of the sense-bases is the growth of matter' and 'the growth of matter is the continuity of matter' is said (Dhs. 642, 732, 865). N: Thus, we have to remember that the four characteristics are taught by different methods: according to the duration of one rupa (fiftyone submoments of citta), or by way of conventional sense. As to the last method, we read in the Co to the Abh. Sangaha: At the moment of rebirth in the human plane there are three decads of rupa produced by kamma: the decads of heartbase, bodysense and sex. The decads of the sense organs arise later on. **** Nina. 31629 From: Philip Date: Mon Mar 22, 2004 3:26pm Subject: Re: Right understanding for beginners ( was Sammaditthi#1492) Hello Victor. Thank you kindly for the guidance. BTW, if I'm not mistaken, it was you who posted a recommendation for Wings to Awakening at Access to insight. I have started reading it with great interest. Metta, Phil --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "yu_zhonghao" wrote: > Hi Ken and Philip, > > Thank you, Ken, for your message. > > Philip, I would also recommend this page in Access To Insight on > right view: 31630 From: Date: Mon Mar 22, 2004 3:55pm Subject: Vism.XIV 69 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) Ch. XIV 69. 23. 'Impermanence of matter' has the characteristic of complete breaking up. Its function is to make material instances subside. It is manifested as destruction and fall (cf. Dhs. 645). Its proximate cause is matter that is completely breaking up. 31631 From: nidive Date: Mon Mar 22, 2004 4:02pm Subject: Re: On Control Hi Hasituppada & Howard, If you had read the suttas, you would know that that was my interpretation. I assume that you would have read the sutta. That's why I always put the link to it. In any case, this is my thinking on the issue of "no control". The view of "no control" is nothing more than another form of atta view. Regards, Swee Boon 31632 From: Date: Mon Mar 22, 2004 4:08pm Subject: Re: [dsg] groups (kalapa) Hi Icaro, You asked: "Could I better post "Hebrew Language"? Hebrew or Hebraic? The Cambridge Dictionary has the two forms!!!" L: Just "Hebrew" is most common, but they all are acceptable. How are the group dynamics in Brazil, loose or compact? No doubt both tasty and colorful! Can you touch, taste, smell, see, and eat the sky? Larry 31633 From: nidive Date: Mon Mar 22, 2004 4:14pm Subject: Re: the self. . . how?/Jack Hi Sukin, Can the present cetana condition the next dhamma? Can it condition the next dhamma to be of a kusala nature(action)? Or of an akusala nature(action)? Can it condition the next dhamma to be permanent? Can it condition the next dhamma to be "of self"? Regards, Swee Boon 31634 From: Date: Mon Mar 22, 2004 4:27pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: On Control Hi, Swee Boon - In a message dated 3/22/2004 7:02:10 PM Eastern Standard Time, nidive@y... writes: > > Hi Hasituppada & Howard, > > If you had read the suttas, you would know that that was my > interpretation. I assume that you would have read the sutta. > That's why I always put the link to it. ------------------------------ Howard: Ahh, good. I suspected that something of that sort was the case. The way you laid it out, it wasn't clear to us that you were giving your interpretation. Hasitupadda evidently thought that all of it was being attributed to the sutta, and so it seemed to me as well, which is exactly why there was the perplexity on our part when reading the sutta directly. [Now, you see, you should have made very clear, in simple language, short words, and elementary phrases, where you were interpreting and where you were quoting, because one can never go wrong in underestimating the intelligence of one's fellow human beings!!] ;-)) ------------------------------- > > In any case, this is my thinking on the issue of "no control". > The view of "no control" is nothing more than another form > of > atta view. > > Regards, > Swee Boon ========================= Thanks very much for the clarification, Swee Boon. With metta, Howard 31635 From: nidive Date: Mon Mar 22, 2004 4:36pm Subject: Re: On Control Hi Ken, > To me, only with an identity then there will be control. Isn't this just the very assumption that was talked about? Regards, Swee Boon 31636 From: nidive Date: Mon Mar 22, 2004 4:38pm Subject: [dsg] Re: On Control Hi Howard, > Now, you see, you should have made very clear, in simple language, > short words, and elementary phrases, where you were interpreting > and where you were quoting, because one can never go wrong in > underestimating the intelligence of one's fellow human beings!!] ;-)) Thank you, Howard. Regards, Swee Boon 31637 From: Ken O Date: Mon Mar 22, 2004 6:49pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: On Control Hi Swee Boon Let me pharaphase you, correct me if I am wrong Earlier you said there is some kind of deliberate consideration of dhamma and the cetana of this deliberation is not self. I said when we have deliberate consideration, the concept of self is already creep into it, so likewise the cetana that conditioned is also has a shade of sel. Cetana can conditioned dhamma be it kusala or akusala but it does not mean it there is some kind of influence or control. It is simply following rules - kusala cetana condition kusala dhammas. Other factors that involved, kusala cetana can condition akusala dhammas. There is no influence per se. It is just following rules that are naturally set since the begingless just like gravity. Ken O 31638 From: Ken O Date: Mon Mar 22, 2004 7:19pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: On Control Hi Howard Let me add on to what you have said. I remember I read it somewhere DO is not simply just one cause one effect, it has multiple cause multiple effect, it is only for teaching it is describe as one cause, one effect. In each start of rebirth-linking, other than moha,there is also lobha involved. So in the link ignorance function is to blind while lobha function is to attached to a self or craving for existence. I will not say moha as mainly atta-sense. It is lobha that conditioned atta-sense, it is moha that prevent one to see there is no atta. Its is two fruits and two causes. But I do not know which cetana you are refering. If one refering to kamma or the formations, cetana is resultant kamma (fruit). IMHO that is why an Arahant even though enlighted still have to experience the kamma of this present life, the resultant effect. If you are refering to cetana as a volition that condition the next rebirth, Arahant has inoperative cetana. Ken O 31639 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Mon Mar 22, 2004 7:30pm Subject: Recognizing the Dhamma - 5. Contentment (§ 5.3.) § 5.3. "There is the case where a monk is content with any old robe cloth at all. He speaks in praise of being content with any old robe cloth at all. He does not, for the sake of robe cloth, do anything unseemly or inappropriate. Not getting cloth, he is not agitated. Getting cloth, he uses it unattached to it, uninfatuated, guiltless, seeing the drawbacks (of attachment to it), and discerning the escape from them. He does not, on account of his contentment with any old robe cloth at all, exalt himself or disparage others. In this he is diligent, deft, alert, & mindful. This is said to be a monk standing firm in the ancient, original traditions of the noble ones. "Furthermore, the monk is content with any old almsfood at all. He speaks in praise of being content with any old almsfood at all. He does not, for the sake of almsfood, do anything unseemly or inappropriate. Not getting almsfood, he is not agitated. Getting almsfood, he uses it unattached to it, uninfatuated, guiltless, seeing the drawbacks (of attachment to it), and discerning the escape from them. He does not, on account of his contentment with any old almsfood at all, exalt himself or disparage others. In this he is diligent, deft, alert, & mindful. This is said to be a monk standing firm in the ancient, original traditions of the noble ones. "Furthermore, the monk is content with any old lodging at all. He speaks in praise of being content with any old lodging at all. He does not, for the sake of lodging, do anything unseemly or inappropriate. Not getting lodging, he is not agitated. Getting lodging, he uses it unattached to it, uninfatuated, guiltless, seeing the drawbacks (of attachment to it), and discerning the escape from them. He does not, on account of his contentment with any old lodging at all, exalt himself or disparage others. In this he is diligent, deft, alert, & mindful. This is said to be a monk standing firm in the ancient, original traditions of the noble ones." [AN IV.28] http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/study/recognizing.html#contentment 31640 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Mon Mar 22, 2004 7:39pm Subject: Re: Right understanding for beginners ( was Sammaditthi#1492) Hi Phil, No problem. Yes, I posted a recommendation for the book Wings to Awakening. Metta, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Philip" wrote: > > Hello Victor. > > Thank you kindly for the guidance. BTW, if I'm not mistaken, it > was you who posted a recommendation for Wings to Awakening at Access > to insight. I have started reading it with great interest. > > Metta, > Phil 31641 From: Date: Mon Mar 22, 2004 2:39pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: On Control Hi, Ken - In a message dated 3/22/04 10:20:40 PM Eastern Standard Time, ashkenn2k@y... writes: > > Hi Howard > > Let me add on to what you have said. I remember I read it somewhere > DO is not simply just one cause one effect, it has multiple cause > multiple effect, it is only for teaching it is describe as one > cause, one effect. > --------------------------------------- Howard: Quite so. -------------------------------------- > > In each start of rebirth-linking, other than moha,there is also lobha > involved. > --------------------------------------- Howard: Sure. Craving leads to becoming, which leads to birth. Craving conditions ignorance, and ignorance conditions craving. D.O is cyclic. -------------------------------------- So in the link ignorance function is to blind while lobha> > function is to attached to a self or craving for existence. I will > not say moha as mainly atta-sense. > ------------------------------------- Howard: I will say it. ------------------------------------- It is lobha that conditioned> > atta-sense, it is moha that prevent one to see there is no atta. Its > is two fruits and two causes. --------------------------------------- Howard : And still, ignorance is mainly atta-sense and atta-view. --------------------------------------- > > > But I do not know which cetana you are refering. If one refering to > kamma or the formations, cetana is resultant kamma (fruit). > ---------------------------------------- Howard: The Buddha said that kamma is cetana/volition. I am talking about cetana = kamma = volition = intention. (Of course, in an arahant, cetana is neutral and is not kamma.) ----------------------------------------- IMHO> > that is why an Arahant even though enlighted still have to experience > the kamma of this present life, the resultant effect. If you are > refering to cetana as a volition that condition the next rebirth, > Arahant has inoperative cetana. > ---------------------------------------------- Howard: Cetana = kamma = volition. Kamma vipaka is another matter. ======================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 31642 From: Sarah Date: Mon Mar 22, 2004 8:57pm Subject: Re: [dsg] groups (kalapa) Hi Larry (& Icaro,Jon,Nina), --- Larry wrote: > Hi Jon, > > I thought your comments on my comments were perfectly reasonable but > they weren't on the same "train". I was going to New York and you > were headed to Los Angeles. I have found that often my explanations > just exaggerate misunderstanding so I decided to snip it. ..... S: I’d like to see everyone get on the same train (attachment, I know) and would therefore be glad to hear any of your explanations further, so that we might at least try to get to New York with you (and meet Howard there at the same time;-)). We had some discussions a while back on the 3rd stage of insight (sammasana-~naa.na), the knowledge of groups such as the kalapas of rupas. At this stage the developed panna fully understands the succeeding namas and rupas arising and falling away (in repeated series of javana cittas), not by thinking but by many moments of direct understanding of those namas and rupas appearing. This is how it’s possible for the knowledge of groups to be known, even though only one object at a time ever appears. It seems when we talk that this must be theoretical understanding only or some kind of conundrum, just as when we talk in the beginning about clearly distinguishing nama and rupa or understanding conditions. However, it only seems like that because our panna is not developed enough to really comprehend. Even so, the insight at this third stage is still called ‘tender’(taru.na), so knowing how much wisdom has to be accumulated even for tender insights, one has an idea how much has to be accumulated for ‘insight as a power’ (balava). Perhaps this may help us learn more about our present ignorance. We discussed this difficult area before and I’d be happy to elaborate further according to my limited understanding. We can also look at the arising of cetasikas together. Although awareness can only ever be aware of one mental factor at a time, by repeatedly being aware of say ignorance and attachment, I think it becomes more apparent (of course intellectually in the beginning) that attachment never arises without ignorance and so on. Of course this is the reason why we always have to stress that realities have to be clearly understood theoretically and then directly in the beginning, over and over again, with namas distinctly known from rupas. I think you touch on many very subtle and difficult areas and do us all a big favour by encouraging Nina’s and others’ explanations, even if (like in my discussion with Howard) we’re travelling on different trains for a while. Please help us find your train so that we all reach the same destination eventually. Metta, Sarah p.s On seeing and visible object, I don't think I can add anything more to Nina's comments, but to say how simple and yet profound I find the teachings. What is seen now (visually) with complete ignorance is just the same as that which is seen with wisdom. What I mean to say is that it's never a question of ever seeing visible objects any differently from how we've ever seen them. So we don't suddently start seeing blank sheets or colours, but we continue to see 'everything' we've always seen and then identified. Gradually, however, the characteristics of 'seeing', 'visible object', 'recognizing', 'thinking' and so on are known for what they are. It's a little like coming round in a circle after following various wrong views to find that daily life is just as it's always been. The only difference is the lenses have been cleaned and need to be cleaned more and more to clearly understand the various dhammas arising and falling away at this moment. Are we on the same train here, Larry??? Please help us if not. Apologies if I've butted in and said too much. I'll gratefully accept a 'quid?, quad?, quomodo?? or even Quasimodo response from Icaro too;-) ====== 31643 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Mar 22, 2004 9:17pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vipassanaa As A Synonym Of Anupassanaa In Satipa.t.thaana Suttam Dear Suan, how are you? Thank you very much for your post. I enjoyed eading it. Nina. op 22-03-2004 15:42 schreef abhidhammika op suanluzaw@b...: > Stephen has asked me if the term "vipassanaa" occurs in > Satipa.t.thaana Suttam, and if it can be found in other Suttams as > well. 31644 From: Sarah Date: Mon Mar 22, 2004 10:22pm Subject: Lost on 'The Road to a Goblin City'?? Dear Ken O & All, Appreciating all your posts. You wrote before (to Jack): > K: I think they do not understand the truth because most of them do > not study Abdhidhamma in details. If one read the Abdhidhamma in > details, a lot truth will be understand be it intellectually. No > confusion will arise, confidence will arise in the dhamma. And most > important, it helps us to see conditional relations of dhamma, all > are not self. So much benefit in learning it yet so many people > shun away, to me it is a great loss for them. .... S: Whilst I agree with the sentiment and value in studying and considering the details, I don’t think we should overlook the profundity of the teachings at all. For example, as we’re discussing Dependent Origination and the Mahanidana sutta, let me add a part from the commentary (as I’ve quoted it before) which is relevant to the introduction extract by B.Bodhi which Chris just gave: ***** “ ‘The Dependent Arising is so deep and appears so deep...’ Comy: Being deep, it appears deep. For something (a body of water) might be shallow yet appear deep, like stagnant water having a dark colour because of rotting leaves, etc; this might be only knee-deep, yet appear shallow, like the serene water of the Jewel River, which is a hundred fathoms deep yet seems to be knwee-deep. Other water might be shallow and appear shallow, like the water in a pot, etc. And still other water might be deep and appear deep, like the water in the ocean at the foot of Mount Sineru. Thus water can be described in four ways. But this is not so in regard to dependent arising. This can be described in only one way: ‘it is deep and appears deep.’ But though this is so, the Venerable Ananda says: ‘To myself it seems as clear as clear can be. How wonderful and marvellous, venerable sir!’ Thus revealing his own astonishment, he asked a question,sat down, and became silent..... “ ‘Do not say so, Ananda!’ Comy: Hearing his statement, the Exalted One thought to himself: ‘Ananda says that a matter which belongs to the domain of the Buddhas is clear to himself. This is like stretching out one’s hand to take hold of the highest plane of existence, like trying to cut through Mount Sineru and remove its core, like wanting to cross the ocian without a ship, or like turning over the earth and trying to take its nutritive essence. Let me point out its depth to him.’ then he said: ‘Do not say so, Ananda!’ “ **** S: Whilst increased understanding removes confusion as you suggested, it also brings a heightened appreciation of the depth of the Buddha’s knowledge and teaching which even Ananda had failed to fully appreciate. I believe you and Larry were discussing the relationship between ignorance and the 4 Noble Truths and I’d like to add another quoted on this from Dispeller (Sammohavinodanii, PTS transl, Classif. of the Structure of Conditions, 662), even though we haven’t discussed formations (sa’nkhaaraa) yet. I think it also stresses why it is deeper and deeper understanding rather than any ‘cosmetic’ avoidance of particular situations that has to be developed: ***** “Furthermore, his non-abandonment of that ignorance about the four truths in particular prevents him from recognising as suffering the suffering called the fruit of merit (S: i.e kusala vipaka) which is fraught with the many dangers beginning with birth, ageing, disease and death, and so he initiates the formation of merit classed as bodily, verbal and mental formation in order to attain that [very suffering], like one desiring celestial nymphs [who jumps over] a mountain cliff. “Also not seeing how that fruit of merit reckoned as pleasure eventually produces great distress owing to the suffering in change, and that it gives no satisfaction, he initiates the formation of merit of the kinds aforesaid which is the condition for that [suffering], like a moth falling into a lamp’s flame, and like one who wants the drop of honey licking the honey-smeared knife-edge. Also, not seeing the danger in the indulgence of sense-desire, etc and the results thereof, through [wrongly] perceiving pleasure and being overcome by defilements, he initiates the formation of demerit occurring in the three doors, like a child who plays with filth and like one who wants to die and eats poison. Also, not aware of the suffering in change [and suffering] in formations [present] in immaterial results, through the perversion (vipallasa) of [perceiving them as] eternal, etc, he initiates the formation of the imperturbable (S: profitable volitions of immaterial sphere (kusalaa cetanaa aruupaavacara])which is the mental formation, like one who has lost his way and takes the road to a goblin city.” ***** S: So ignorance of dependent origination and of the inherent unsatisfactoriness of all formations, including wholesome or profitable volitions, even of arupa jhanas, propels the cycle continuously from moment to moment, life to life ‘like one who has lost his way and takes the road to a goblin city’. Hopefully as wisdom grows, it will see the futility of the road to the goblin city for what it is;-) Metta, Sarah ===== 31645 From: Sarah Date: Mon Mar 22, 2004 11:19pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: clearing up misunderstandings Hi Howard, S:On ‘objects’ contd: --- upasaka@a... wrote:> -------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Okay, then. We are not using the word in exactly the same way. I > definitely accept that there is always content to experience, of various > sorts. I > take 'object', however, as indicating something facing a "subject" and > being > apprehended dualistically by that subject. That is the way our > experience > usually appears. .... S:(btw, somewhere there was a typo in what I wrote - a ’d’ added in error to ‘experience’, in case you were doubly confused). This was what I suspected (i.e different definitions), because in your other posts when you refer to what is seen, as opposed to conceived etc, we’re very much on the same page and this is probably why you were so understandably agitated by my comment. If I can try to paraphrase (and find some agreement) with what you’ve written here: ‘While there is an idea of self or a ‘subject’ experiencing, there will always be the idea of ‘things’ or ‘objects’ experienced. That is the way our experience usually appears.’ Can we also agree that in truth ‘there are only ever ‘experiences’ or ‘experiencing’ of various phenomena, whether they be actualities or concepts of actulalities or concepts of non-actualities.’??? ..... Howard: >There is, indeed, content of visual, auditory etc > experience. In > fact, experience is nothing more than presence of experiential content. > If that > is what is meant by arammana, then I believe in it! .... S: I think we’re making some progress. Now arammana includes the object (content?) of visual, auditory etc experience. Also, it includes all mind objects whether these be namas, rupas (actualities or paramattha dhammas) or concepts (pa~n~natti. When you say that ‘In fact, experience is nothing more than presence of experiential content’, are you still distinguishing between say visual consciousness and object/content of it? In other words, whilst there can only ever be the experiencing or knowing of one reality/actuality at a time, the clear distinction must be apparent. .... Howard: >But if there is the > additional sense of it being a thing apprehended by a separate knowing, > then > 'arammana' means what I call an "object" grasped by a knowing "subject". .... S: As soon as there is the idea of a ‘thing’, then perhaps we agree that wrong view is involved, with your definitions of ‘subject’ and ‘object’. In this case we’re in agreement (momentarily of course;-)). This doesn’t mean that everytime a concept is the arammana, that there is this wrong view at all. Usually, there’s just plain ignorance. .... Howard: > My > experience consisted in a disappearence of knowing separate from and > facing a known. > That mode of experience *was* experiencing, but there was neither > subject nor > object, neither separate nor identical - there was just the experience. .... S: If we refer to a moment of pa~n~naa now, simply the characteristic of a nama or rupa appears *just as it is*. For example, if seeing consciousness is the object (arammana) of panna, it’s nature of seeing experience without any idea of self or subject is apparent. If visible object is the arammana, it’s nature of being seen or visual content is known and then gone. Are we on the same train here? .... Howard: > The > content was present, no different than it usually is - sights, sounds, > etc all the > same, and yet, at the same time, the experience was radically different. > ---------------------------------------------------------- S: I think in the beginning that moments of satipatthana are so brief as we’ve said many times (same tune and I loved Sukin’s variations on the theme;-)),and there are bound to be uncertainties and thinking and wondering about what an experience might have been. Gradually, I think as understanding increases, there’s less uncertainty and less attempt to try and trace the past experiences, but of course this is very natural and even these kinds of thinking can be known for what they are too. .... > ------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > It is experienced as the content of the experience. I could say > that > it is "self-experiencing," except that such terminology is literally > false and > is misleading. It still suggests a connecting of two things, but the two > now > being coalesced into one - a reflexive knowing. But it is *not* > reflexive. > -------------------------------------------------- S: I erased my part too quickly. I think this was on duality/non-duality which I don’t find very helpful. I’m concerned about this ‘coalesced into one’ and whether namas and rupas are still clearly distinguished or somehow blurred together in the experience as I understand (or quite likely misunderstand) your explanation. .... > --------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > I wouldn't make a claim about an "enlightenment experience". That > > would be way too grandiose. An enlightenment experience would be an > awakening, a > glimpse of nibbana, a taste of freedom. How my "insight experience" > should be > characterized I can't say, and what it might have led to I can't say. > Unfortunately, it terrified me, and I ran away from it. (But still it > was beneficial.) > -------------------------------------------------- S: I’m sorry, I didn’t mean ‘enlightening’ in the grandiose sense with a capital E. As I suggested before, I think we all have special experiences and poignant moments which we cling to and can’t help dwelling on, but we have to let them go, otherwise we just accumulate more strong lobha. I mentioned the example of letting go of ‘the voices’ or the fantasies for some. For others it may be the ‘sunsets’ or ‘beauty’ of nature, whilst for others a ‘near-death’ experience or great trauma experienced. For others still, it may be a ‘meditative experience’, an ‘insight’ or ‘flash of wisdom’. In all these cases the problem or benefit or experience is long gone, but the danger is in the present attachment or ma~n~nati (thinks in a distorted way) as referred to in the Kalaka sutta and discussed in detail in the Mulapariyaya sutta as I see it, of course. .... > ---------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > I think there is some value in remembering what the experience > was > like, though the quality of such memory degrades quickly . But > heightened > attention to and mindfulness of current experience, *current* experience > being all > there ever is, is certainly of primary importance. > ----------------------------------------------------- S: I’m glad we agree on this. The former can only be thinking (usually distorted and usually with attachment to *my* experience)as I suggested we all do, hopefully not treading on an egg-shell;-) Metta, Sarah ====== 31646 From: Sarah Date: Mon Mar 22, 2004 11:34pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Lost on 'The Road to a Goblin City'?? Dear Nina & All, I appreciated the following extract you recently posted in characteristics of rupas 3 is also relevant to what I posted below about the danger of ignorance about dukkha owing to the lack of understanding of the impermanence of all realities: Nina: "The 'Atthasåliní'...compares birth, decay and death to three enemies, of whom the first leads someone into the forest, the second throws him down and the third cuts off his head. We read: ... For birth is like the enemy who draws him to enter the forest; because he has come to birth in this or that place. Decay is like the enemy who strikes and fells him to earth when he has reached the forest, because the aggregates (khandhas) produced are weak, dependent on others, lying down on a couch. Death is like the enemy who with a sword cuts off the head of him when he is fallen to the ground, because the aggregates having attained to decay, are come to destruction of life. This simile reminds us of the disadvantages of all conditioned realities that do not last and are therefore no refuge. However, when understanding (paññå) has not realized the arising and falling away of nåma and rúpa, one does not grasp their danger...." ***** --- Sarah wrote: > Dispeller (Sammohavinodanii, PTS transl, Classif. of the Structure of > Conditions, 662) > ***** > “Furthermore, his non-abandonment of that ignorance about the four > truths > in particular prevents him from recognising as suffering the suffering > called the fruit of merit (S: i.e kusala vipaka) which is fraught with > the > many dangers beginning with birth, ageing, disease and death, and so he > initiates the formation of merit classed as bodily, verbal and mental > formation in order to attain that [very suffering], like one desiring > celestial nymphs [who jumps over] a mountain cliff. > > “Also not seeing how that fruit of merit reckoned as pleasure eventually > produces great distress owing to the suffering in change, and that it > gives no satisfaction, he initiates the formation of merit of the kinds > aforesaid which is the condition for that [suffering], like a moth > falling > into a lamp’s flame, and like one who wants the drop of honey licking > the > honey-smeared knife-edge. Metta, Sarah ===== 31647 From: Sarah Date: Tue Mar 23, 2004 0:21am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: One who dwells in the Dhamma Hi Swee Boon, Each time this sutta is quoted I consider it a little more, thank you: --- nidive wrote: > Hi Group, http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an05-073.html> > "Monk, there is the case where a monk studies the Dhamma: *dialogues, > narratives of mixed prose and verse, explanations, verses, spontaneous > exclamations, quotations, birth stories, amazing events, question & > answer sessions [the earliest classifications of the Buddha's > teachings]*. He spends the day in Dhamma-study. He neglects seclusion. > He doesn't commit himself to internal tranquility of awareness. This > is called a monk who is keen on study, not one who dwells in the Dhamma. .... *S: In other words the Dhamma-vinaya or Buddha-vacana consisting of the nine divisions: Sutta, Geyya, Veyyaakarana, Gaathaa,Udaana, Itivuttaka, Jaataka, Abbhuta and Vedalla. From the commentary to the vinaya: ‘The word of the Buddha which should be known as uniform in sentiment,twofold as the Dhamma and the Vinaya, threefold according to the first,intermediate, and last words, and similarly as Pitakas (Baskets), fivefold according to the Nikayas (Collections), *ninefold according to the Angas(Factors*, and forming 84,000 divisions according to the Units of the Dhamma.’ These were rehearsed at the First Council. > "Then there is the case where a monk studies the Dhamma: dialogues, > narratives of mixed prose and verse, explanations, verses, spontaneous > exclamations, quotations, birth stories, amazing events, question & > answer sessions [the earliest classifications of the Buddha's > teachings]. He doesn't spend the day in Dhamma-study. He doesn't > neglect seclusion. He commits himself to internal tranquility of > awareness. This is called a monk who dwells in the Dhamma. **** B.Bodhi adds a couple of interesting notes on p.298 ‘Numerical Discourses’: 24: “The five sections of V,73 are consistently phrased in terms of ‘he does not apply himself to internal tranquillity of mind’, which stresses tranquillity meditation, while the corresponding sections of V,74, otherwise identical, are phrased in terms of ‘he does not further understand the meaning with wisdom’, which emphasizes insight meditation.” 25: “It is interesting in Text 98 (V,26) the first four items are designated ‘bases of liberation’ and shown to be effective means of attaining arahantship. The difference in the two cases, it seems, is that in the first the monk uses study, teaching, recitation and reflection as aids to personal spiritual development, while here he pursues them as ends in themselves and fails to use them as methods of self-cultivation.” I also checked the following in the PTS transl: a) for ‘internal tranquillity of mind’, it gives ‘to go apar (for meditation)’ [comy: ekiibhaava’n vissajjeti- ??being alone, development, setting free/giving up] b) ‘dwells in dhamma’ [Dhammaviharii] c)V,74 PTS transl gives: “’Monk, consider the monk who masters Dhamma: the sayings, psalms and so forth - but knows not through insight the goal beyond.* Monk, that monk is said to be swift to master, but he does not live by Dhamma.’“ *[Uttari~n c’assa pa~n~naaya atta’n na ppajaanaati. Comy: uttari~n tassa dhammassa......cattaari saccaani na passati] S: In other words, the 4 Noble Truths are not realized in spite of all his knowledge. Obviously, it’s the reverse in the last case. Metta, Sarah ====== 31648 From: Ken O Date: Tue Mar 23, 2004 0:29am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:_Recognizing_the_Dhamma_-_5._Contentment_(§_5.1.) Hi Victor Discontent - this reminds of Visud on how the temperaments may be recognized by the kinds of state occuring. Chap III 95. By the kind of states occuring: in one of greedy temperament there is frequent occurence of such states as deceit, fraud, pride, evilness of wishes, greatnes of wishes, discontent, foppery and personal vanity. then in para 121 As to suitabliity of temperament: here the exposition should be understood according to what is suitable to the temperaments. That is to say: first, the ten kinds of foulness and mindfulness occupied the body are eleven meditation of subjects suitable for one of greedy temperament. --- Regarding unhappiness - I would simply imply unpleasant feelings, there are only two type of consciouness that arise with unpleasant feelings, that is dosa-mula rooted. It usally follow by other three cetasikas which includes envy, meanness (stingy) and worry. ------ How does one discontent lead to unhappiness? To me that when one is discontent, one cannot fulfilled one's craving, that will mean one do not get what one's wants, leading to lamentation, pain (since these are unpleasant feelings so they are dosa mula rooted) Ken O 31649 From: Ken O Date: Tue Mar 23, 2004 0:39am Subject: Re: [dsg] Lost on 'The Road to a Goblin City'?? Hi Sarah > .... > S: Whilst I agree with the sentiment and value in studying and > considering the details, I don’t think we should overlook the profundity of the teachings at all. > ***** k: I think you have quoted me out of context which I do not infer that DO is not deep. In fact I think all dhamma are deep. It is for simplicity sake that DO is taught one cause one fruit. The beauty of DO is that, all the Buddha principles are condensed in this teaching, which I summarise from Visud in my earlier mail. Ken O 31650 From: Sukinderpal Singh Narula Date: Tue Mar 23, 2004 0:42am Subject: Re: the self. . . how?/Jack Hi Swee Boon, > Can the present cetana condition the next dhamma? > Can it condition the next dhamma to be of a kusala nature(action)? > Or of an akusala nature(action)? As part of the citta conditioned, and conditioning. > Can it condition the next dhamma to be permanent? No. Why do you ask? > Can it condition the next dhamma to be "of self"? Not sure what you mean. But Swee Boon, why are you so particularly concerned about cetana? Since we know that the development of kusala of any kind, is in direct ratio to the panna developed, isn't it a mistake to focus on kamma? Why would wanting to have kusala states make it so? From the above I think what you are driving at, is that if one has kusala intentions; this will condition more kusala in the subsequent cittas. I don't think there is any rule in this regard. How did the kusala intention arise in the first place? Was it not right after some akusala? You probably have seen through experience that a kusala intention may have conditioned an act through body or speech, but even before the act was completed, so many other dhammas arose and fell. Seeing, hearing, thinking kusala or akusala, conceit, pleasant and unpleasant feelings and so on. So who is to say, what will this present intention condition? Also, is not much of the kusala, like metta, karuna, mudita, dana, and so on, directed towards the well being of others? Therefore if one is so concerned about one's own kusala, is one at that time thinking about the other? And if it is directed towards the idea of eradicating kilesas, would not this be a moment of satipatthana, hence no idea about `what to do', but just "is"? Sure, wanting to develop more kusala can often immediately follow any moment of kusala, be it satipatthana or other kinds, but would not such an idea be due to wanting kusala for `self'? Does seeing the value of satipatthana necessarily condition more sati? Is it not all about 'understanding' ultimately? Metta, Sukin. 31651 From: Sarah Date: Tue Mar 23, 2004 1:24am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Recognizing the Dhamma - The Eight Principles Hi Victor, Good to see you back and active;-) --- yu_zhonghao wrote: > Hi Sarah, > > Thanks for this message. I think it would be skillful to keep these > eight principles/criteria in mind in recognizing the Dhamma. ... S: Good idea .... > Going through the study guide is one way to get to know these eight > principles such that one can determine for him or herself whether > some qualities one may know are the Dhamma, the Vinaya, the > Teacher's instruction. .... S: For greater clarity, I’ve listed these ‘eight principles’ as you gave, translated in ATI: 1. to passion, not to dispassion; 2 .to being fettered, not to being unfettered; 3. to accumulating, not to shedding; 4. to self-aggrandizement, not to modesty; 5. to discontent, not to contentment; 6. to entanglement, not to seclusion; 7. to laziness, not to aroused persistence; 8. to being burdensome, not to being unburdensome': Now I’m giving the Pali with the PTS translations in brackets with the same numbering as used above. (Note: I’ve had to guess at some characters as I don’t have any fonts and there is a little confusion at the start): Ye kho tva’n gotamã, dhamme jaaneyyaasi (those things of which you know thus:) ime dhammaa saraagaaya sa’nvattanti no visa’nyogaaya (1: These things lead to passion, not to release therefrom) ???(2: bondage...release)*, aacayaaya sa’nvattanti no apacayaaya(3: piling up -of rebirth-....dispersion)** , mahicchataaya sa’nvattanti no appicchataaya(4:wanting much...wanting little) , asantuññhiyaa sa’nvattanti no santuññhiyaa(5: discontent....contentment). Sa’nga.nikaaya sa’nvattanti no pavivekaaya(6: sociability...solitude) . Kosajjaaya sa’nvattanti no viriyaarambhaaya (7: indolence.....exertion) . Dubharataaya sa’nvattanti no subharataaya (8: luxury...frugality), eka’nsena gotami, dhaareyyaasi neso dhammo neso vinayo neta’n satthusaasananti. * I’m not sure if 1) and 2) are combined or if 2) is missing in this Pali I’m using or if I’m going cross-eyed;-). **Nina wrote: >I looked up the co: These things lead to passion, not to release, etc. the piling up of rebirth not to the dispersion thereof... Piling up, Pali aacaaya: this is another word for accumulation. The Co says that the Buddha explained the continuation of the cycle, and also the end of the cycle. This is all in the sutta, but as often is the case, the Co gives us an extra reminder. The Gotamid attained arahatship by this exhortation. We are reminded that what we learn is not theoretical, it should be verified right now. Actually here is taught in short the Dependent Origination and the reverse. So long as there are ignorance and clinging the cycle continue. Gotamid could eradicate all ignorance by right understanding.< ***** I hope this is of some help for comparison of terms in other texts and further reflection on the meanings. Metta, Sarah ======= 31652 From: Sarah Date: Tue Mar 23, 2004 1:34am Subject: Re: [dsg] Lost on 'The Road to a Goblin City'?? Hi Ken O, I mainly addressed the post to you (and everyone) because I thought you would appreciate the quotes and also because of an earlier comment you had made suggesting we might have finished with ignorance and could move on;-) It wasn't meant to suggest that you inferred DO is NOT deep, but I think we can never stress enough how deep it is;-) --- Ken O wrote: > > ***** > > k: I think you have quoted me out of context which I do not infer > that DO is not deep. In fact I think all dhamma are deep. It is > for simplicity sake that DO is taught one cause one fruit. The > beauty of DO is that, all the Buddha principles are condensed in this > teaching, which I summarise from Visud in my earlier mail. .... I'm appreciating your quotes and summaries and look forward to more. Apologies for any misunderstanding or for taking your name and quote out of context. Metta, Sarah ===== 31653 From: Sarah Date: Tue Mar 23, 2004 2:22am Subject: Re: [dsg] Recognizing_the_Dhamma_-_4._Modesty_(§_4.2.) Hi Victor, --- yu_zhonghao wrote: > > In passage § 4.2. we can see the quality of modesty in Sumana, who > is Ven. Anuruddha's novice. ... In the Gotamid sutta, modesty (no appiccataaya) refers to modesty as in ‘wanting little’ or ‘easily satisfied’, so I’m not sure it’s the same quality as is being stressed in this verse. Of course, Sumana being an arahant would have neither wants or conceits of any kind. The commentary (PTS transl) is quite short and certainly the very young Sumana’s qualities and accumulations were very, very special(!!), so let me share it here: “Reborn in this Buddha-age he took birth in the family of a certain lay-disciple who had become the lay-attendant of the venerable Thera Anuruddha. Now that layman’s children till then had died young. And the father said: ‘If yet one more son is born to me, I will have him ordained by the Thera. After ten months a healthy boy was born to him, and accordingly, when the child was seven years old, he was ordained. And from the ripeness of his insight, it was not long before he acquired sixfold abhi~n~naa, waiting the while upon the Thera. Taking a jar to fetch him water, Sumana through iddhi-power came to Anotatta Lake. And a wicked serpent-king, coiled about the lake, reared its great hood aloft and would not suffer him to get water. Then Sumana took the shape of a garuda-bird and overcame the serpent, and flew back with the water to the Thera. And the Master, seated in Jeta Grove, saw him as he went, and called Saariputta to see, praising him in the four verses below.” Sumana added those verses to the first few lines of his own. >[Thag VI.10] http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/study/recognizing.html#modesty Metta, Sarah ===== 31654 From: Philip Date: Tue Mar 23, 2004 4:51am Subject: [dsg] Re: Dear Abbydhamma - Fear of poverty Hi Sarah. Thanks for your thoughtful feedback. It's not the right time to respond properly now but I have printed out your post and will be reading it together with Christine's. I am very grateful to have such good dhamma friends. Truly grateful. Metta, Phil --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > Dear Penniless in Samsara;-), > > I'd also like to join the bandwagon, ignore your retraction and add > comments on the important issues you raise in this post. I'm glad to see > that Chris and Nina have already given lots of good advice and sutta > references. 31655 From: Sarah Date: Tue Mar 23, 2004 4:52am Subject: typo - Re: [dsg] Lost on 'The Road to a Goblin City'?? Hi All, I did go cross-eyed and skip a line in this quote. I've added the missing line below. Now what I need is some kind of automatic ruler which keeps the place as I type. Metta, Sarah --- Sarah wrote: > “ ‘The Dependent Arising is so deep and appears so deep...’ > > Comy: Being deep, it appears deep. For something (a body of water) > might > be shallow yet appear deep, like stagnant water having a dark colour > because of rotting leaves, etc; this might be only knee-deep, yet appear *to be a hundred fathoms. Another body of water might be deep yet appear* > shallow, like the serene water of the Jewel River, which is a hundred > fathoms deep yet seems to be knwee-deep. Other water might be shallow > and > appear shallow, like the water in a pot, etc. And still other water > might > be deep and appear deep, like the water in the ocean at the foot of > Mount > Sineru. Thus water can be described in four ways. 31656 From: hasituppada Date: Tue Mar 23, 2004 2:28am Subject: Re: On Control Dear Swee Boon, If that was your interpretation you sould have said so. I do not know what "control" is in Pali. One has to be careful in the use of words in interpreting Pali texts. "Control" has a different conceptual connotation. Stop, suppress, ignore, leave out, have the implication of someone arranging or ordering things. One can ofcourse discuss whether your interpretation is correct or wrong. That would not be discussing the Sutta With regard to meditation, these words have no meaning. When a thought arises in the mind, what ever the "quality" of the thought, you merely become aware of the thought without reacting to it. There is no suppressing, ignoring, controlling or stopping. If the same thought comes over and over again you let in another thought, "like a carpenter would drive in a nail on top of another to remove it". When an emotion of anger arises in the mind be aware you have anger and that will "stop", reaction to that thought. You should not go beyond the thought, to "control" its arising. It is bare attention that is necessary. with metta, Hasituppada. __________________________________________________________________ Hi Hasituppada & Howard, If you had read the suttas, you would know that that was my interpretation. I assume that you would have read the sutta. That's why I always put the link to it. In any case, this is my thinking on the issue of "no control". The view of "no control" is nothing more than another form of atta view. Regards, Swee Boon 31657 From: nidive Date: Tue Mar 23, 2004 6:41am Subject: Re: On Control Hi Ken, If something conditions another thing, the former is exerting "influence" over the latter. Or, if A conditions B, A is exerting "influence" over B. I think this is a very simple logic to understand and there isn't any need to complicate further. Regards, Swee Boon 31658 From: Date: Tue Mar 23, 2004 2:00am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: clearing up misunderstandings Hi, Sarah - There is little useful that I ccan add in the following. I think our positions may be closer than expected at first glance, but I don't think they are the same. Let me say just a drop here, and I wil lalso add a commentor two later in your post. My ordinary experiencing at any time seems to be a twofold process consisting of the knowing of a known through a medium. While the knowing never occurs without the known, and vice versa, each seems to be an item of its own, facing or abutting the other. The knowing is the "subject" and the known is the "object". It is like a searchlight falling upon an object. It is like the holding of an object in one's hand. It is like a person facing a wall. In every case there seem to be two things relating to each other, and in the case of experience, a subject grasping an object. During my "no-subject-no-object experience," this was not at all the case. There was no relation among two things or processes. There was one process, a flow of experience, not divided into knowing and known, not divided into subjective and objective aspects. That single process was content, and presence, and illumination (not blindness), and aliveness, but there just was no subject-object split to it. There were, indeed, sights, sounds, feelings, thoughts, etc, but they were not events held by knowing. There was no separate knowing - these were just present. If there was any imbalance to the experience at all, I would say there was a leaning towards the objective pole. But I suspect that this was just a seeming due to the great unfamiliarity of there being no sense of subject. I will add only a comment or two, in context, below. In a message dated 3/23/04 2:30:40 AM Eastern Standard Time, sarahdhhk@y... writes: > > Hi Howard, > > S:On ‘objects’ contd: > > --- upasaka@a... wrote:> > -------------------------------------------------- > >Howard: > > Okay, then. We are not using the word in exactly the same way. I > >definitely accept that there is always content to experience, of various > >sorts. I > >take 'object', however, as indicating something facing a "subject" and > >being > >apprehended dualistically by that subject. That is the way our > >experience > >usually appears. > .... > S:(btw, somewhere there was a typo in what I wrote - a ’d’ > added in error to ‘experience’, in case you were doubly confused). > > This was what I suspected (i.e different definitions), because in your > other posts when you refer to what is seen, as opposed to conceived etc, > we’re very much on the same page and this is probably why you were so > understandably agitated by my comment. > > If I can try to paraphrase (and find some agreement) with what you’ve > written here: ‘While there is an idea of self or a ‘subject’ experiencing, > there will always be the idea of ‘things’ or ‘objects’ experienced. That > is the way our experience usually appears.’ > Can we also agree that in truth ‘there are only ever ‘experiences’ or > ‘experiencing’ of various phenomena, whether they be actualities or > concepts of actulalities or concepts of non-actualities.’??? > --------------------------------------------- Howard: Yes, we can - but there are fine nuances that can be missed in using even the very same phrasing. When we say "experiences" or "experience" that may focus on content as objects, it may focus on an isolated function of knowing, or it may have a neutral, nondual, sense. This ambiguity of sense applies even when we say "experiencing," with the meaning there varying between a subjective sense and a neutral one. ---------------------------------------------- > ..... > > Howard: >There is, indeed, content of visual, auditory etc > >experience. In > >fact, experience is nothing more than presence of experiential content. > >If that > >is what is meant by arammana, then I believe in it! > .... > S: I think we’re making some progress. Now arammana includes the object > (content?) of visual, auditory etc experience. Also, it includes all mind > objects whether these be namas, rupas (actualities or paramattha dhammas) > or concepts (pa~n~natti. When you say that ‘In > fact, experience is nothing more than presence of experiential content’, > are you still distinguishing between say visual consciousness and > object/content of it? In other words, whilst there can only ever be the > experiencing or knowing of one reality/actuality at a time, the clear > distinction must be apparent. ------------------------------------------------------ Howard: No. My sense here is different. I see the apparent subject-object, "normal" experience of us worldlings to be a kind of infected experience, but without our realizing for the most part that it is infected. This, I believe, is why, at least in part, it is important that we examine that experience carefully so that we come to be clear about the subject-object split. Our regular experience does have that split, and it is a basis for continued belief in a knowing self. Under some circumstances, it seems to be possible to temporarily suppress the sense of experience split into self and other, and that seems to be an opportunity to glimpse "a different reality". ----------------------------------------------------- > .... > Howard: >But if there is the > >additional sense of it being a thing apprehended by a separate knowing, > >then > >'arammana' means what I call an "object" grasped by a knowing "subject". > .... > S: As soon as there is the idea of a ‘thing’, then perhaps we agree that > wrong view is involved, with your definitions of ‘subject’ and ‘object’. > In this case we’re in agreement (momentarily of course;-)). This doesn’t > mean that everytime a concept is the arammana, that there is this wrong > view at all. Usually, there’s just plain ignorance. > --------------------------------------------------- Howard: Yes, we agree about "things," but I think the issue here is a different one. -------------------------------------------------- > .... > Howard: > >My > >experience consisted in a disappearence of knowing separate from and > >facing a known. > >That mode of experience *was* experiencing, but there was neither > >subject nor > >object, neither separate nor identical - there was just the experience. > .... > S: If we refer to a moment of pa~n~naa now, simply the characteristic of a > nama or rupa appears *just as it is*. For example, if seeing consciousness > is the object (arammana) of panna, it’s nature of seeing experience > without any idea of self or subject is apparent. If visible object is the > arammana, it’s nature of being seen or visual content is known and then > gone. Are we on the same train here? > ------------------------------------------------------- Howard: More like being in different trains, but on the same track. Hopefully we are not going in opposite directions on that track! ;-)) ------------------------------------------------------ > .... > Howard: > >The > >content was present, no different than it usually is - sights, sounds, > >etc all the > >same, and yet, at the same time, the experience was radically different. > >---------------------------------------------------------- > S: I think in the beginning that moments of satipatthana are so brief as > we’ve said many times (same tune and I loved Sukin’s variations on the > theme;-)),and there are bound to be uncertainties and thinking and > wondering about what an experience might have been. Gradually, I think as > understanding increases, there’s less uncertainty and less attempt to try > and trace the past experiences, but of course this is very natural and > even these kinds of thinking can be known for what they are too. > .... > >------------------------------------------------- > >Howard: > > It is experienced as the content of the experience. I could say > >that > >it is "self-experiencing," except that such terminology is literally > >false and > >is misleading. It still suggests a connecting of two things, but the two > >now > >being coalesced into one - a reflexive knowing. But it is *not* > >reflexive. > >-------------------------------------------------- > S: I erased my part too quickly. I think this was on duality/non-duality > which I don’t find very helpful. I’m concerned about this ‘coalesced into > one’ and whether namas and rupas are still clearly distinguished or > somehow blurred together in the experience as I understand (or quite > likely misunderstand) your explanation. ------------------------------------------------------ Howard: Look at my disclaimers. There is really no coalescing, no unity of opposites, and no reflexive knowing. Nondual experience is radically different, and none of the analogies one might try to apply work. ------------------------------------------------------- > .... > >--------------------------------------------------- > >Howard: > > I wouldn't make a claim about an "enlightenment experience". That > > > >would be way too grandiose. An enlightenment experience would be an > >awakening, a > >glimpse of nibbana, a taste of freedom. How my "insight experience" > >should be > >characterized I can't say, and what it might have led to I can't say. > >Unfortunately, it terrified me, and I ran away from it. (But still it > >was beneficial.) > >-------------------------------------------------- > S: I’m sorry, I didn’t mean ‘enlightening’ in the grandiose sense with a > capital E. As I suggested before, I think we all have special experiences > and poignant moments which we cling to and can’t help dwelling on, but we > have to let them go, otherwise we just accumulate more strong lobha. I > mentioned the example of letting go of ‘the voices’ or the fantasies for > some. For others it may be the ‘sunsets’ or ‘beauty’ of nature, whilst for > others a ‘near-death’ experience or great trauma experienced. For others > still, it may be a ‘meditative experience’, an ‘insight’ or ‘flash of > wisdom’. In all these cases the problem or benefit or experience is long > gone, but the danger is in the present attachment or ma~n~nati (thinks in > a distorted way) as referred to in the Kalaka sutta and discussed in > detail in the Mulapariyaya sutta as I see it, of course. > .... > > >---------------------------------------------------- > >Howard: > > I think there is some value in remembering what the experience > >was > >like, though the quality of such memory degrades quickly . But > >heightened > >attention to and mindfulness of current experience, *current* experience > >being all > >there ever is, is certainly of primary importance. > >----------------------------------------------------- > S: I’m glad we agree on this. The former can only be thinking (usually > distorted and usually with attachment to *my* experience)as I suggested we > all do, hopefully not treading on an egg-shell;-) > ------------------------------------------------------ Howard: You are correct. The thinking back becomes more and more faulty the more remote the event. Thinking and concept replace actual experience, the life is taken out of the experience, and it is turned into a dead remnant. And, yes, it can become "my exprience," and then it becomes nothing but a stagnation point. ---------------------------------------------------- > > Metta, > > Sarah =========================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 31659 From: nidive Date: Tue Mar 23, 2004 7:00am Subject: Re: the self. . . how?/Jack Hi Sukin, > > Can the present cetana condition the next dhamma? > > > Can it condition the next dhamma to be of a kusala nature(action)? > > Or of an akusala nature(action)? > > As part of the citta conditioned, and conditioning. > > > Can it condition the next dhamma to be permanent? > > No. Why do you ask? If this is the case, then I don't think there is any contradiction on my part. I have asked you if it is possible to strive without self-identity view. I don't think you have given me a straight forward answer. Now a straight forward answer would be: Yes, it is possible to strive without self-identity view. How? By making good effort in practicing mindfulness immersed in the body and not assuming the five aggregates to be the self, or the self as possessing the five aggregates, or the five aggregates as in the self or the self as in the five aggregates. This, I think is the method the Buddha used to achieve Enlightenment. By using the 4th jhana as the basis for his mindfulness immersed in the body, and not assuming any self-identity with regards to the five aggregates, he penetrated to the right knowledge of anatta. Regards, Swee Boon 31660 From: icarofranca Date: Tue Mar 23, 2004 7:35am Subject: Re: [dsg] groups (kalapa) Dear Larry: > L: Just "Hebrew" is most common, but they all are acceptable. How are > the group dynamics in Brazil, loose or compact? --------------------------------------------------------------------- Mathematically speaking, Brazil has got some group compactivity: all series belonging such groups converge, say Mazel Tov one each other and etc. Socially...gosh! City of Gods is only a pale example of the real chaos here in Rio! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- No doubt both tasty and > colorful! Can you touch, taste, smell, see, and eat the sky? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Yep! You can taste and smell and feel the Blue Sky, mainly with a good dose of Sulphuric H2SO4 soluted on atmosphere...HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!!!! Mettaya, Ícaro (Mathematics is not one of my interests, dear Larry!) 31661 From: icarofranca Date: Tue Mar 23, 2004 7:54am Subject: Re: groups (kalapa) Dear Sarah: .> > We had some discussions a while back on the 3rd stage of insight > (sammasana-~naa.na), the knowledge of groups such as the kalapas of rupas. > At this stage the developed panna fully understands the succeeding namas > and rupas arising and falling away (in repeated series of javana cittas), > not by thinking but by many moments of direct understanding of those namas > and rupas appearing. This is how it's possible for the knowledge of groups > to be known, even though only one object at a time ever appears. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- At this point of reasoning one must be careful in not confounding the spacemarks of this matter. I just replied a Larry's post about groups, at which he said about Compactivity or loosely proprieties of groups, Dynamic groups and so on... all this group of Rupas structures remind me so much such patterns on hebrew grammar, how about all words on "Yfriit" are derived from verbal forms belonging to certain determined grammatical families, like groups of Rupas that arise and decay in series of javana cittas. Right: you can trace such similarities on any language ground at many of these issues..but I would like say to Larry that Mathematics are Off-Topic on these debate. If you could said so, as Larry, I could reply that all these groups are assembled by series that converge, say mazel tov one each other and depart as well comported groups of Rupas from these world to Cubik-land!!! ------------------------------------------------------------------- Are we on the same train here, Larry??? Please help us if not. ------------------------------------------------------------------- Serious! It seems to me that Larry wants to stand a linkage between group of Rupas and Mathematics. I am not interested! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Apologies if I've butted in and said too much. I'll gratefully accept a > 'quid?, quad?, quomodo?? or even Quasimodo response from Icaro too;- ) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Quasimodo... Quasi-mode...It's necessary to be a genius like Buddhaghosa to extract honey of all these unpromising grammatical flowers! Mettaya, Ícaro 31662 From: nidive Date: Tue Mar 23, 2004 8:09am Subject: Re: On Control Hi Hasituppada, > I do not know what "control" is in Pali. One has to be careful in > the use of words in interpreting Pali texts. As far as I am concerned, control == volition == fabrications. > "Control" has a different conceptual connotation. Stop, suppress, > ignore, leave out, have the implication of someone arranging or > ordering things. I think most English verbs have the implication of someone doing something anyway. > One can of course discuss whether your interpretation is correct > or wrong. That would not be discussing the Sutta. How would that not be discussing the Sutta? Expressing my interpretation of it is just one way of discussing about it. Refuting my interpretation is another way of discussing about it. > If the same thought comes over and over again you let in another > thought, "like a carpenter would drive in a nail on top of > another to remove it". Well, isn't the decision to let in another thought a form of control? Isn't there volition involved? > When an emotion of anger arises in the mind be aware you have anger > and that will "stop", reaction to that thought. You should not go > beyond the thought, to "control" its arising. It is bare attention > that is necessary. Just how do you become "aware"? Other than having made the decision to be aware in the first place. But you are most likely right that trying to suppress a thought will make it worse. However, I think this is because this makes the mind even more agitated. When you try to control the arising of that thought, that thought does not fade into the background. Instead, it comes to the foreground! Regards, Swee Boon 31663 From: Ken O Date: Tue Mar 23, 2004 8:29am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: On Control HI Swee Boon Dont mixed up just because A condition B, A got an influence in B. Condition is not influence. Just like gravity, there is no influence on gravity to make an apple to fall down from a tree to the ground, it is just simply the rule. Dont mixed condition as influence. They are just processes. Ken O 31664 From: Ken O Date: Tue Mar 23, 2004 8:55am Subject: Re: [dsg]_Re:_Recognizing_the_Dhamma_-_1._Dispassion_(§_1.4,_§_1.5.) Hi Victor Sorry to take so long to answer this question because I always must wait for some inspiration before I answer a very knotty question. I think I used the word control here very unwisely. I apologise. We cannot control things because we cannot let my form be thus, let my form not be thus. Mindfullness is always consider as the Guardian of the mind. When I used the mindfullnes here, it is in context of satipatthana (mindfullness + insight), it is not just plain mindfullness. To me plain mindfullness is useless because a child when learning how to walk will be very mindfull on his first step. When mindfullness arise, the nature of dhamma is understood as anatta and anicca, then dhamma is considered as fleeting, there is no point in indulging in them, the senses is natrrally restraint. There isn't a need to purposely stop oneself because when mindfullness arise, when it see the danger or the suffering of dhammas, it will automaticaly put a brake. However, mindfullness will not develop or grow by itself or come out of thin air. Mindfullness is very slowly developed by considering of dhamma, reflecting, listening, reading dhamma. I wrote this to someone before, how one practise mindfullness or conditioned mindfullness to grow. "Another practical is you are attracted to a pleasant song, or you are hearing insulting words, if you intellectually reflect, that sound, ear, sound consciouness, sound contact are all emtpy of a self. Since contact is empty of a self, so does pleasant or unpleasant feeling that arise with the contact as indispensible condition is also empty. That is called practising. It is in every moment of our lives, even while you are looking at this email or touching a keyboard if there is reflection on empty of a self on these sense process, it is already practising dhamma ;-) No one can escape the onslaught of the sense when one is alert, so they are the best mean for our practise. So next time dont just do toiletering, remember them as empty of a self - toiletering has become dhamma practise. Cheers" Ken O 31665 From: Date: Tue Mar 23, 2004 4:38am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: On Control Hi, Ken (and Swee Boon) - In a message dated 3/23/04 11:49:02 AM Eastern Standard Time, ashkenn2k@y... writes: > HI Swee Boon > > Dont mixed up just because A condition B, A got an influence in B. > Condition is not influence. Just like gravity, there is no influence > on gravity to make an apple to fall down from a tree to the ground, > it is just simply the rule. Dont mixed condition as influence. They > are just processes. > > > Ken O > ======================== I'm not certain of what you mean, but in one way of understanding you, I do agree. When it is said that one event is condition for another, all that actually means is that reliably, "lawfully," and objectively, whenever condition A (along with other needed conditions) occurs, also condition B arises. Such conditionality does not presuppose some substantial, hidden, "causal power" that resides in the first condition or that connects the two. Conditionality is mere "When this arises, that arises. And without this, not that." You may be taking the word 'influence' to suggest an underlying "causal power," and I agree there is no reason to presume such. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 31666 From: htootintnaing Date: Tue Mar 23, 2004 9:52am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sensing dhamma as they really are ( 15 ) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: HI Htoo. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- S: I hope you saw my last note to you on final preparations of equipment.Hope it wasn't TOO picky;-)Apologies if so. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I do not think apologies are needed between you and me. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- S: I've appreciated some of your recent installments, but a few comments here as it touches on ayatanas (sense bases) which we discussed before: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I know that. This time I might have made mistake again because I was just leaving and I wrote it in a hurry. I have been away and I left internet. But I replied a person mail regaring file. It is OK and I will try it later. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >Htoo Naing wrote: > Dear Dhamma Friends, >Soon after the sound ( song of dove ) disappears, there left thought after thought. Some thoughts are directed to the possible dove and some thoughts are directed to signs associated with the dove like 'peace'. >These thoughts are objects. They are thought-sense-base. This means that these thoughts are the base for arising of mind-consciousness or intellect-consciousness. The thoughts are dhammaarammana and they are mind objects. As they are base for mind-consciousness, it is called dhamma-ayatana or thought-sense-base. .... S: As we discussed before, we cannot say all dhammaarammana are dhamma-ayatana. Thoughts (of the dove) are concepts and objects (arammana)of citta, but only paramattha dhammas are ayatanas (sense bases). ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I will be grateful if you explain this further. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- S: Dhamma-ayatana consist of subtle rupas, cetasikas and nibbana as we agreed. Perhaps I misundestand you here. .... ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Please do not misunderstand me. As I stated above, I made a mistake. Yes, we agreed this once in our discussion. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > These thoughts are known because they are being attended. This means that the attending mind is the base for arising of mind-consciousness. The attending mind is mano. As it is a base for mind-consciousness, it is called manaayatana or mind-sense-base. > There are dhammaayatana ( the thoughts ) and manaayatana ( the mind ). .... S: Not quite. ... ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: May be. What is manayatana? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >The attention supports the thought to reach to conscious level . As these matters are already attended with full understanding, .... S: The point, I think, is that full understanding can only know paramattha dhammas as we always agree, not thoughts which you agree above are concepts. .... ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: But concepts can be known by paramattha dhamma. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >The meditator perceives these and there is no one doing anything. There is no him or his in the whole process of understanding.There is no trace of self or there is no trace of atta all in these dhamma. >They just arise and fall away. There is no evidence of permanence. They all are impermanence. They all are anicca as they all are impermanent. >As they are impermanent, there is nothing to be attached and there is no trace of pleasure or sukha. All are unsatisfactory. All are dukkha. >No one is controlling all these process. As there is no control, they all are anatta. ... S: Excellent, especially the last lines at the ends of your posts now;-);-)Imho, they're getting better all the time. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Thanks. This is because I have been learning. From you and other members of your list, and members of other lists including my own lists. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- S: On another thread, you asked Swee Boon what the six higher knowledges in a translation were referring to. As I understand, these always refer to the 6 abhi~n~na (higher or supernormal knowledges). There was some discussion between you and someone else on these. As I understand only those who have attained all 5 jhanas and arahantship can exceptionally (or I should say could during the Buddha's time and for a while afterwards)have these abhi~n~naa. For details, see Nyantiloka: http://www.palikanon.com/english/wtb/a/abhinna.htm Metta, Sarah ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Swee Boon used simple English. So I did not get it when I saw that message. If it is said as Abhinna from the start, I would have known what he meant. Thanks for your reply without which I would have been travelling alone. With Metta, Htoo Naing > ===== > > 31667 From: htootintnaing Date: Tue Mar 23, 2004 10:00am Subject: Re: charact. of rupas, no 1. Dear Nina, Could you please explain the relationship between temperature and rupa? Is utu exactly temperature? Is sound the effect of temperature? I will be looking forward to hearing from you. With due respect, Htoo Naing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: charact. of rupas, no 1. Characteristics inherent in all Rúpas Rúpas do not arise singly, they arise in different groups (kalåpas). The different groups of rúpa which arise do not fall away immediately. A sabhåva rúpa, a rúpa with its own distinct nature of characteristic lasts as long as the duration of seventeen cittas arising and falling away, succeeding one another. With regard to the arising and falling away of rúpa, four different aspects can be discerned which have been classified as four lakkhana rúpas (lakkhana means characteristic): 31668 From: htootintnaing Date: Tue Mar 23, 2004 10:06am Subject: [dsg] Re: Yuganaddha Sutta --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: Htoo and Swee Boon Regarding the issues you are discussing in this thread and the associated one on the Pansadhovaka Sutta AN III, 100, I have checked the 'Numerical Discourses of the Buddha' translation of the Pansadhovaka Sutta ('Refinement of the Mind' -- see relevant part copied below). I have found the following that may be of interest: 1. A footnote to the Pansadhovaka Sutta explains that the Pali terms ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Jon, Thanks a lot for your kind footnotes. Htoo 31669 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Mar 23, 2004 10:45am Subject: Re: [dsg] groups (kalapa) Dear Sarah, Larry, Howard and all, op 23-03-2004 05:57 schreef Sarah op sarahdhhk@y...: > to Larry: I think you touch on many very subtle and difficult areas and do us all a > big favour by encouraging Nina’s and others’ explanations, even if (like > in my discussion with Howard) we’re travelling on different trains for a > while. N: Yes, Larry should not erase his remarks. I miss it when he does so. Sarah: What is seen now (visually) with complete ignorance is just the > same as that which is seen with wisdom. What I mean to say is that it's > never a question of ever seeing visible objects any differently from how > we've ever seen them. > So we don't suddently start seeing blank sheets or colours, but we > continue to see 'everything' we've always seen and then identified. > Gradually, however, the characteristics of 'seeing', 'visible object', > 'recognizing', 'thinking' and so on are known for what they are. N: We are inclined to make visible object into something else, whereas it is just what appears through eyesense. But discussing seeing and visible object are helpful so that our theoretical understanding is correct and also there are conditions to consider it more often. When insight is developed in stages, the objects are always the same: just ordinary nama and rupa that appear now through the six doors. The only difference is: understanding which realizes them is growing. This morning I wrote about a gem of a sutta: the Bhaddaji Sutta Gradual Sayings, Book of the Fives, Ch 17, § 10). We read that Ånanda, when he was dwelling near Kosambí, in Ghosita Park, asked Bhaddaji: ³Good Bhaddaji, what is the best of sights, what the best of sounds, what the best of joys, what the best of conscious states, and what the best of of becomings?² InBgk I was attending a sutta session when you had a breakfast meeting with friends at the riverside in your hotel and I was absent! Sorry Ken O! To compensate, I am writing now and you will read it in due time. The best of sights is when the cankers are destroyed.. The Commentary to this Sutta, the ³Manorathapúraní, explains that arahatship can be attained immediately after seeing, no matter whether a desirable or undesirable object is seen. It explains that when the monk has seen visible object through the eyes, he begins to apply insight and that the attainment of arahatship can be said to arise consecutively after seeing. It states that it is the same in the case of hearing. Sarah wrote: little like coming round in a circle after following various wrong views > to find that daily life is just as it's always been...> We try to see more into visible object than there is. When walking over our persian rugs with many patterns, I mostly do not focus on these, but my eyes are open and there is seeing. I see all that appears through the eyes. Seeing is a reality, a dhamma that appears. Ignorance does not know that it is dhamma. Of course ignorance follows upon seeing very often. Seeing is an element different from other elements. Its only task is seeing. It is dhamma and this means: it has no owner and arises because of its own conditions. Nobody can make it arise. A. Sujin said many times: the objects of satipatthana are very ordinary (pokketi, thammada), and therefore so difficult for us. Because of attachment we make it so difficult. I completely agree with Howard's definition of volition or effort, etc. Here is no problem, volition is conditioned. But when the lobha comes in now, at this moment, there is our problem. For us worldlings there always is an underlying notion of self who can do this or that. The danger is even greater when we are ignorant of our lobha. Lobha always wants us to do something else but attending to the present moment. I just heard on MP3 that delay is dangerous; we can die now, after seeing, when laughing, eating or in the middle of a conversation (it happened to a friend). Why wait for another time or go first to another place? Seeing is vi~n~naa.na. There were some discussions about this term. The following is from the different meanings of dhamma (I wrote about before), explained by the Saddaniti. The word dhamma has many meanings and one of them is object. I quote: This passage occurs for example in the ³Kindred Sayings² (IV, XXXV, 107, Loko: the world). The words citta, mano and vi~n~naa.na are the same in meaning, they are the paramattha dhamma that is citta, consciousness. We read in the ³Kindred Sayings² (II, Nidaana-sa.myutta, Ch VII, 61: However, in different contexts there is a differentiation of terms. The aggregate of consciousness is called vi~n~naa.nakkhandha, and it includes all cittas. For seeing-consciousness, the word cakkhuvi~n~naa.na is used. Mano can stand for mano-dhaatu, mind element, and this includes the citta which is the mind-door (life-continuum, bhavangacitta). Nina. 31670 From: icarofranca Date: Tue Mar 23, 2004 11:25am Subject: [dsg] Re: On Control Dear Ken O > > Dont mixed up just because A condition B, A got an influence in B. > Condition is not influence. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Exact. In propositional Logic we get terms as A -R- B, where A and b are concepts, ideas, logical entities, Dhammas, etc, and -R- are the relationships between them. But Jon had stated rightly on: there are only A and B as real entities, real Dhammas, -R- is only a mind concept. ------------------------------------------------------------------ Just like gravity, there is no influence > on gravity to make an apple to fall down from a tree to the ground, > it is just simply the rule. ----------------------------------------------------------------- Yes, if you get a mass load that distortes space-time around it, as the Einstein's General Relativity theory, you get a rule over this freame, and not a "Force" that comples apples, grapefruits, nuts and Cocoas from trees to ground, or better, you assign A SPECIFIC METRIC on space-time framework. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Dont mixed condition as influence. They > are just processes. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Exact. Mettaya, Ícaro (Baccaurelate, Master of Science and Air Force lieutennat-Engineer) > > > Ken O 31671 From: icarofranca Date: Tue Mar 23, 2004 9:14am Subject: [dsg] Re: On Control Dear Ken O > Dont mixed up just because A condition B, A got an influence in B. > Condition is not influence. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Exact. Jon stated in some posts that a proposition like A -R- B (-R- is any relationship between propositions or groups or logical entities or Dhammas)lies on basic falacious reasonings, because only dhammas have got real existence. What have you got as real ? Only A and B. The -R- between them is only a concept. The Hon. Bertrand Russell said the same with their famous logical problem about "Scott is the Waverley's author". --------------------------------------------------------------------- Just like gravity, there is no influence > on gravity to make an apple to fall down from a tree to the ground, > it is just simply the rule. --------------------------------------------------------------------- If you state that the mass load of Earth dictates a rule on all surrounding space-time frame ( as Einstein's General Relativity Theory), or, scientifically speaking, stipulates A METRIC on it...yes. that's no "Force" that atracts apples, grapefruits, nuts and Cocoa from tree to ground at last end. -------------------------------------------------------------------- Dont mixed condition as influence. They > are just processes. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Only a matter of rule! Mettaya, Ícaro ( Baccaurelate and Master of Sciences...and after, the PhD!!!) 31672 From: icarofranca Date: Tue Mar 23, 2004 11:47am Subject: [dsg] Re: On Control(Typo) So much work here at office!!! > > Yes, if you get a mass load that distortes space-time around it, > as the Einstein's General Relativity theory, you get a rule over this > freame, and not a "Force" that comples ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Frame Compels (Ah... I hope cleaning out all these typos when reach Nibbana!!!) Mettaya, Ícaro 31673 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Tue Mar 23, 2004 0:40pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Recognizing_the_Dhamma_-_4._Modesty_(§_4.2.) Hi Sarah, Thank you for this post. It got me into doing some research on the pali original for the word 'modesty'/'modest' in the translation by Ven. Thanissaro Bhikkhu. The pali original is 'appicchata'/'appiccha'. The definitions given in Pali English Dictionary is as following: Appicchata (p. 57) (f.) [abstr. fr. prec.] contentment, being satisfied with little, unostentatiousness Vin iii.21; D iii.115; M i.13; S ii 202, 208 sq.; A i.12, 16 sq.; iii.219 sq., 448; iv.218, 280 (opp. mahicchata) Appiccha (p. 57) (adj.) [appa + iccha from is, cp. iccha] desiring little or nothing, easily satisfied, unassuming, contented, unpretentious The discourse Anguttara Nikaya VIII.30 Anuruddha Sutta To Anuruddha http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an08-030.html might give us some idea about what it means by 'appicchata' In Anuruddha Sutta, the thoughts arose in Ven. Anuruddha's awareness, and the Buddha characterized them as the thoughts of a great person: "Good, Anuruddha, very good. It's good that you think these thoughts of a great person: The first of these thoughts of a great person is: 'This Dhamma is for one who is modest, not for one who is self- aggrandizing.' In Pali original: Appicchassayam dhammo nàyam dhammo mahicchassa In the following passage (passage § 4.1.) , the Buddha further explained with reference to what 'This Dhamma is for one who is modest, not for one who is self-aggrandizing' was said: "'This Dhamma is for one who is modest, not for one who is self- aggrandizing.' Thus was it said. With reference to what was it said? There is the case where a monk, being modest, does not want it to be known that 'He is modest.' Being content, he does not want it to be known that 'He is content.' Being reclusive, he does not want it to be known that 'He is reclusive.' His persistence being aroused, he does not want it to be known that 'His persistence is aroused.' His mindfulness being established, he does not want it to be known that 'His mindfulness is established.' His mind being centered, he does not want it to be known that 'His mind is centered.' Being endowed with discernment, he does not want it to be known that 'He is endowed with discernment.' Enjoying non-complication, he does not want it to be known that 'He is enjoying non-complication.' 'This Dhamma is for one who is modest, not for one who is self- aggrandizing.' Thus was it said. And with reference to this was it said. The translation of 'appicchata'/'appiccha'[and it's variance] as 'modesty'/'modest' agrees with the meaning of 'unostentatiousness,' 'unassuming,' 'unpretentious' as given in the Pali English Dictionary. It also agrees with the explanation in the passage above. Metta, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > Hi Victor, > > --- yu_zhonghao wrote: > > > > In passage § 4.2. we can see the quality of modesty in Sumana, who > > is Ven. Anuruddha's novice. > ... > In the Gotamid sutta, modesty (no appiccataaya) refers to modesty as in > `wanting little' or `easily satisfied', so I'm not sure it's the same > quality as is being stressed in this verse. Of course, Sumana being an > arahant would have neither wants or conceits of any kind. > > The commentary (PTS transl) is quite short and certainly the very young > Sumana's qualities and accumulations were very, very special(!!), so let > me share it here: > > "Reborn in this Buddha-age he took birth in the family of a certain > lay-disciple who had become the lay-attendant of the venerable Thera > Anuruddha. Now that layman's children till then had died young. And the > father said: `If yet one more son is born to me, I will have him ordained > by the Thera. After ten months a healthy boy was born to him, and > accordingly, when the child was seven years old, he was ordained. And from > the ripeness of his insight, it was not long before he acquired sixfold > abhi~n~naa, waiting the while upon the Thera. Taking a jar to fetch him > water, Sumana through iddhi-power came to Anotatta Lake. And a wicked > serpent-king, coiled about the lake, reared its great hood aloft and would > not suffer him to get water. Then Sumana took the shape of a garuda-bird > and overcame the serpent, and flew back with the water to the Thera. And > the Master, seated in Jeta Grove, saw him as he went, and called > Saariputta to see, praising him in the four verses below." > > Sumana added those verses to the first few lines of his own. > > >[Thag VI.10] > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/study/recognizing.html#modesty > > Metta, > > Sarah 31674 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Tue Mar 23, 2004 1:13pm Subject: [dsg]_Re:_Recognizing_the_Dhamma_-_1._Dispassion_(§_1.4,_§_1.5.) Hi Ken O, Thank you, Ken, for your reply. I don't think you need to apologise for what you wrote in this thread. In the message #30595, you wrote that There are quite a number of sutta on keep control of faculties. Could you provide some reference on these suttas? What are the qualities of mindfulness that one would recognize as the Teacher's instruction? Metta, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O wrote: > Hi Victor > > Sorry to take so long to answer this question because I always must > wait for some inspiration before I answer a very knotty question. I > think I used the word control here very unwisely. I apologise. We > cannot control things because we cannot let my form be thus, let my > form not be thus. > > Mindfullness is always consider as the Guardian of the mind. When I > used the mindfullnes here, it is in context of satipatthana > (mindfullness + insight), it is not just plain mindfullness. To me > plain mindfullness is useless because a child when learning how to > walk will be very mindfull on his first step. When mindfullness > arise, the nature of dhamma is understood as anatta and anicca, then > dhamma is considered as fleeting, there is no point in indulging in > them, the senses is natrrally restraint. There isn't a need to > purposely stop oneself because when mindfullness arise, when it see > the danger or the suffering of dhammas, it will automaticaly put a > brake. > > However, mindfullness will not develop or grow by itself or come out > of thin air. Mindfullness is very slowly developed by considering of > dhamma, reflecting, listening, reading dhamma. I wrote this to > someone before, how one practise mindfullness or conditioned > mindfullness to grow. > > "Another practical is you are attracted to a pleasant song, or you > are hearing insulting words, if you intellectually reflect, that > sound, ear, sound consciouness, sound contact are all emtpy of a > self. Since contact is empty of a self, so does pleasant or > unpleasant feeling that arise with the contact as indispensible > condition is also empty. That is called practising. It is in every > moment of our lives, even while you are looking at this email or > touching a keyboard if there is reflection on empty of a self on > these sense process, it is already practising dhamma ;-) No one can > escape the onslaught of the sense when one is alert, so they are the > best mean for our practise. So next time dont just do toiletering, > remember them as empty of a self - toiletering has become dhamma > practise. Cheers" > > > Ken O 31675 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Tue Mar 23, 2004 1:15pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Recognizing the Dhamma - The Eight Principles Hi Sarah, Thank you for this message. Metta, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > Hi Victor, > > Good to see you back and active;-) > > --- yu_zhonghao wrote: > Hi Sarah, > > > > Thanks for this message. I think it would be skillful to keep these > > eight principles/criteria in mind in recognizing the Dhamma. > ... > S: Good idea > .... > > Going through the study guide is one way to get to know these eight > > principles such that one can determine for him or herself whether > > some qualities one may know are the Dhamma, the Vinaya, the > > Teacher's instruction. > .... > S: For greater clarity, I've listed these `eight principles' as you gave, > translated in ATI: > > 1. to passion, not to dispassion; > 2 .to being fettered, not to being unfettered; > 3. to accumulating, not to shedding; > 4. to self-aggrandizement, not to modesty; > 5. to discontent, not to contentment; > 6. to entanglement, not to seclusion; > 7. to laziness, not to aroused persistence; > 8. to being burdensome, not to being unburdensome': > > Now I'm giving the Pali with the PTS translations in brackets with the > same numbering as used above. (Note: I've had to guess at some characters > as I don't have any fonts and there is a little confusion at the start): > > Ye kho tva'n gotamã, dhamme jaaneyyaasi (those things of which you know > thus:) ime dhammaa saraagaaya sa'nvattanti no visa'nyogaaya (1: These > things lead to passion, not to release therefrom) ???(2: > bondage...release)*, aacayaaya sa'nvattanti no apacayaaya(3: piling up -of > rebirth-....dispersion)** , mahicchataaya sa'nvattanti no > appicchataaya(4:wanting much...wanting little) , asantuññhiyaa > sa'nvattanti no santuññhiyaa(5: discontent....contentment). Sa'nga.nikaaya > sa'nvattanti no pavivekaaya(6: sociability...solitude) . Kosajjaaya > sa'nvattanti no viriyaarambhaaya (7: indolence.....exertion) . > Dubharataaya sa'nvattanti no subharataaya (8: luxury...frugality), > eka'nsena gotami, dhaareyyaasi neso dhammo neso vinayo neta'n > satthusaasananti. > > * I'm not sure if 1) and 2) are combined or if 2) is missing in this Pali > I'm using or if I'm going cross-eyed;-). > > **Nina wrote: >I looked up the co: These things lead to passion, not to > release, etc. the piling up of rebirth not to the dispersion thereof... > Piling up, Pali aacaaya: this is another word for accumulation. The Co > says that the Buddha explained the continuation of the cycle, and also the > end of the cycle. This is all in the sutta, but as often is the case, the > Co gives us an extra reminder. The Gotamid attained arahatship by this > exhortation. > We are reminded that what we learn is not theoretical, it should be > verified right now. Actually here is taught in short the Dependent > Origination and the reverse. So long as there are ignorance and clinging > the cycle continue. Gotamid could eradicate all ignorance by right > understanding.< > ***** > I hope this is of some help for comparison of terms in other texts and > further reflection on the meanings. > > Metta, > > Sarah 31676 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Tue Mar 23, 2004 1:23pm Subject: Re: Recognizing the Dhamma - 5. Contentment (§ 5.4.) § 5.4. MahaKassapa: Coming down from my dwelling place, I entered the city for alms, stood courteously next to a leper eating his meal. He, with his rotting hand, tossed me a morsel of food, and as the morsel was dropping, a finger fell off right there. Sitting next to a wall, I ate that morsel of food, and neither while eating it, nor having eaten, did I feel any disgust. Whoever has mastered left-over scraps for food, smelly urine for medicine, the foot of a tree for a dwelling, cast-off rags for robes: He is a man of the four directions. * * * This is enough for me -- desiring to do jhana, resolute, mindful; enough for me -- desiring the goal, resolute, a monk; enough for me -- desiring comfort, resolute, in training; enough for me -- desiring my duty, resolute, Such. * * * There is no such pleasure for me in the music of a five-piece band as there is when my mind is at one, seeing the Dhamma aright. [Thag XVIII] http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/study/recognizing.html#contentment http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/khuddaka/theragatha/thag18 .html 31677 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Tue Mar 23, 2004 1:30pm Subject: [dsg] Re:_Recognizing_the_Dhamma_-_5._Contentment_(§_5.1.) Hi Ken O, Thank you for this message. Metta, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O wrote: > Hi Victor > > Discontent - this reminds of Visud on how the temperaments may be > recognized by the kinds of state occuring. > > Chap III 95. By the kind of states occuring: in one of greedy > temperament there is frequent occurence of such states as deceit, > fraud, pride, evilness of wishes, greatnes of wishes, discontent, > foppery and personal vanity. > > then in para 121 > > As to suitabliity of temperament: here the exposition should be > understood according to what is suitable to the temperaments. That > is to say: first, the ten kinds of foulness and mindfulness occupied > the body are eleven meditation of subjects suitable for one of greedy > temperament. > --- > > Regarding unhappiness - I would simply imply unpleasant feelings, > there are only two type of consciouness that arise with unpleasant > feelings, that is dosa-mula rooted. It usally follow by other three > cetasikas which includes envy, meanness (stingy) and worry. > > ------ > How does one discontent lead to unhappiness? To me that when one is > discontent, one cannot fulfilled one's craving, that will mean one do > not get what one's wants, leading to lamentation, pain (since these > are unpleasant feelings so they are dosa mula rooted) > > > > Ken O 31678 From: icarofranca Date: Tue Mar 23, 2004 1:32pm Subject: Re: Recognizing the Dhamma - 5. Contentment (§ 5.4.) Dear yu_zhonghao One can feel a sensible difference amid this class of canon texts and the language of later commys. At Visuddhimagga, Sila-niideso, Chapter III, Buddhaghosa stands all classes of ascetic practices, from wearing on dirty rags to sitting meditation... and no one of them reaches such grotesque extremes of self-punishment! Mettaya, ícaro --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "yu_zhonghao" wrote: > § 5.4. > MahaKassapa: > > Coming down from my dwelling place, > I entered the city for alms, > stood courteously next to a leper > eating his meal. > He, with his rotting hand, > tossed me a morsel of food, > and as the morsel was dropping, > a finger fell off > right there. > > Sitting next to a wall, > I ate that morsel of food, > and neither while eating it, > nor having eaten, > did I feel > any disgust. > > Whoever has mastered > left-over scraps for food, > smelly urine for medicine, > the foot of a tree for a dwelling, > cast-off rags for robes: > He is a man > of the four directions. > > * * * > > This is enough for me -- > desiring to do jhana, > resolute, mindful; > enough for me -- > desiring the goal, > resolute, > a monk; > enough for me -- > desiring comfort, > resolute, > in training; > enough for me -- > desiring my duty, > resolute, > Such. > > * * * > > There is no such pleasure for me > in the music of a five-piece band > as there is when my mind > is at one, > seeing the Dhamma > aright. > > > [Thag XVIII] > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/study/recognizing.html#contentment > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/khuddaka/theragatha/thag18 > .html 31679 From: Htoo Naing Date: Tue Mar 23, 2004 2:40pm Subject: Sensing dhamma as they really are ( 16 ) Dear Dhamma Friends, The meditator has slept and he just wakes up. He knows that he is awake. He knows that he is in bed. He is planning for the day and he also knows that he is planning and thinking. I wants to get out of bed to start the day. He knows that he wants so. Bending the elbow, holding the blanket, stretching the arm, beding the hip, bending the knee, stretching the leg, putting down the leg on the floor, rising up and stand on feet. He knows that he wants to go to the toilet. Stepping, swinging, footing, standing, taking off another foot, swinging, footing, standing and so on and he knows that he is in front of the commode. He knows that he wants to sit on. Turning, bending trunk, hip and knee, touching with the commode, sitting, want to release, release, releive. Want to clean, clean. Stand up, stretching, stepping, swinging, footing, standing, taking off and so on and he knows that he wants to go to the basin and then he washes his hands knowingly the touches of water noting the characters. Washing, brushing, cleaning, wiping and then he goes for a shower and notes through out. Flowing, drying, wiping and cleaning are all noted. He just takes an ordinary dressing and he consciously changes the dressing. Combing, putting things in their place and then he prepares for paying homage to The Buddha image in the shrine. He sits mindfully and he touches at five areas in his worshiping that is feet, knees, elbows, hands and the forehead. Then he does the routine citing and pays homage to triplegem. Then he sits. He knows that he is breathing. When it is long he knows it as long particularly the long touch. When it is short, he knows it as short, noting touch. When in, he knows he is breathing in and when out he knows it out. He knows at that time that he is well calm. For some time he has sat and he has been mindful. He wants to rise up. He notes that he wants so. He knows all his bodily movement. From sitting to standing, standing to walking. And he also knows all his actions carrying utensils, plates, cups and saucers. He sits at the breakfast table. He notes that he wants to eat as he was fast the whole night. He notes he stretches his hand and takes the food. he notes that he brings the food to his mouth, opening the mouth, putting the food into the mouth, close the mouth, grind the food, wants to swallows and then swallows the ground food. Stretch out to take the glass, put on the table, pour juice into the glass, want to drink, take to the mouth, put into the mouth, hold and swallow the juice. He knows that he finishes his breakfast, wants to clean mouth and lips with tissue, clean them, put the tissue into the bin. Want to stand, stand, move around and engage the routine. He notes through out the day as far as he can and when he is back home, he changes his dressing mmindfully with loose dressing for ease. Have dinner mindfully and finish it and he leaves the dinner table and he sits at his table planning for tomorrow. He knows that he is planning. When the mindfulness works evidently he realises that mindfulness is working. Mindfulness feeds other co-arising dhamma. Mindfulness reminds the mind and its conditioners to do their jobs in their way. When point after point are being well attended and they all are mindful, that mindfulness becomes a factor of peer factors that assist arising of wisdom. Mindfulness is not him or his. He knows that mindfulness just arises and falls away.The meditator perceives these and there is no one doing anything. There is no him or his in the whole process of understanding.There is no trace of self or there is no trace of atta all in these dhamma. They just arise and fall away. There is no evidence of permanence. They all are impermanence. They all are anicca as they all are impermanent. As they are impermanent, there is nothing to be attached and there is no trace of pleasure or sukha. All are unsatisfactory. All are dukkha. No one is controlling all these process. As there is no control, they all are anatta. May all beings see dhamma as they really are. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing htootintnaing@y... JourneyToNibbana@yahoogroups.com 31680 From: kenhowardau Date: Tue Mar 23, 2004 4:25pm Subject: Re: Right understanding for beginners ( was Sammaditthi#1492) Hi Philip, --------------------- Ph: > Thank you for your concern, Ken. I am taking everything with a > grain of salt these days, staying open to all views, or trying to, to > avoid my past error of being convinced that walking on only one side > of the sidewalk is Right. --------------------- Grain of salt? Where do you think you are, at a picnic? I want everyone on the left side of the sidewalk (footpath!). Then, to keep Sarah happy, we all have to board the same train to New York. Step out of line, and Ken O will be barking at our heels. :-) ------------------------- Ph: > I found this in the "Assumptions" sutta that Victor was kind > enough to link me to. Owing to the fading of > ignorance and the arising of clear knowing, (the thoughts) -- 'I > am,' 'I am this,' 'I shall be,' 'I shall not be,' 'I shall be > possessed of form,' 'I shall be formless,' 'I shall be percipient > (conscious),' 'I shall be non-percipient,' and 'I shall be neither > percipient nor non-percipient' -- do not occur to him." > > I think I can say - with "I" used as always for convenience - that > I have at least come to enough understanding to be able to put myself > in with the "well-instructed disciple" above. ------------------------ Yes, with an intellectual grasp of nama and rupa, we can know (in our beginners' way) that self has no role to play in reality: We can appreciate the brilliance of the ariyan mind without presuming to emulate it. ------------------------ Ph: > A beginner's right understanding is well described here the basic right understanding referred to above is gradually > rising, and I am very grateful to this group for that. ------------------------------ So am I. Our understanding of nama and rupa doesn't sound much, but it puts us streets ahead of where we were without it. By knowing how nama differs from rupa, we have opened the way for panna to directly know (for example) sense consciousness as nama and sense object as rupa. Kind regards, Ken H 31681 From: Philip Date: Tue Mar 23, 2004 4:57pm Subject: Degrees of sati Hello all, I would like to bring this passage from Nina's "Understanding Reality" to your attention: "We are inclined to join many realities together into a "whole." I thought that I could see a duck's foot, and I failed t understand that seeing is different from thinking and and different from tasting. One cannot see a duck's foot, seeing sees only visible object or colour. Thinking can think of the idea of a duck's foot. Thinking itself is a nama, it is reality, and sati can be mindful of thinking. That idea of which we think is not a reality and thus it cannot be object mindfulness." (end quote) Could I ask first of all what is meant by "object mindfulness", as opposed to "an object of mindfulness." Is it mindfulness that is capable of taking an object? Second, this is a basic point that I could clarify by going back to the answer Jon gave me in that "spinning pannathi(sp?)" thread, but it's probably best that I check my understanding by think out loud here. I know from the ESL classroom that students that take chances and make mistakes are the ones that make the most progress, especially if they have teachers (ie you all) that are willing to give them feedback. If I recall correctly, the teaching found in Nina's books is that sati can be mindful of thinking, but not of concepts, because concepts are not realities. Sati can only be mindful of realities. The idea of a duck's foot is a concept, not a reality. Sati can only be mindful of paramattha (sp?) dhammas. Nina's says elsewhere in this essay that there are different degrees of sati. ("Sati is a mental factor which accompanies each wholesome moment of consciousness. There are different kinds and degrees of sati.") I would hazard a guess that the higher (deeper? more real?) degree of sati- the one that arises only very rarely in daily life -can only take paramattha dhammas as object, but there is a shallower or more mundane kind of sati that can take concepts as an object of mindfulness. I would guess that when I see a duck's foot on a dish seeing-consciousness sees and perception (sanna?) labels and vedana gives rise to a feeling and the result is the non-appetizing (in my case) idea of a "duck's foot." In this case, sanna would not be able to arise easily, because it is an unfamiliar food. Let's say it was a bagel with cream cheese I saw in an advertisement in a magazine on the way to work. The concept would arise easily, and it would be appetizing. Later, if I were at work and my stomach grumbled, the concept of bagel with cream cheese might arise in my mind. I would guess that common sati could be mindful of it, and that mindfulness could hold the concept up to view, and an intention not to eat a bagel with cream cheese could arise. (Because bagels are crappy in Japan, it would be panna at work if an intention not to eat one of those crappy bagels arose, I think.) Just thinking aloud here. I know this sort of thing has been discussed a lot before - I saw an exchange between Larry and Sarah back at the beginning of the ADL study group in 2002 - but thank you in advance for allowing me to think out loud. My tentative conclusion - there is a sati that can only be mindful of paramattha dhammas, and another degree of sati, a shallower, more common degree of sati, that can hold up concepts for view. This would be the sati that other teachers in the Theravada tradition (Ajahn Chah and Ayya Khema, to speak of two of my favourites) often refer to as something that we should and can expect to develop as a common experience in our daily life. Thank you in advance for any feedback. Metta, Phil 31682 From: nidive Date: Tue Mar 23, 2004 4:58pm Subject: Re: On Control Hi Ken, Is a person a murderer all because of past actions? Does a person murder all because of past conditions? Or, does a person have murderous thoughts all because of past conditions? If not, how is a person not a murderer? Regards, Swee Boon 31683 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Tue Mar 23, 2004 2:35pm Subject: Re: Recognizing the Dhamma - 5. Contentment (§ 5.4.) Hi ícaro, Thank you for this message. I don't know every detail of the ascetic practices. These passages are about being content, and to me they are excellent reminders on being so. Metta, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "icarofranca" wrote: > Dear yu_zhonghao > > One can feel a sensible difference amid this class of canon texts > and the language of later commys. At Visuddhimagga, Sila-niideso, > Chapter III, Buddhaghosa stands all classes of ascetic practices, > from wearing on dirty rags to sitting meditation... and no one of > them reaches such grotesque extremes of self-punishment! > > Mettaya, ícaro > > > > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "yu_zhonghao" > wrote: > > § 5.4. > > MahaKassapa: > > > > Coming down from my dwelling place, > > I entered the city for alms, > > stood courteously next to a leper > > eating his meal. > > He, with his rotting hand, > > tossed me a morsel of food, > > and as the morsel was dropping, > > a finger fell off > > right there. > > > > Sitting next to a wall, > > I ate that morsel of food, > > and neither while eating it, > > nor having eaten, > > did I feel > > any disgust. > > > > Whoever has mastered > > left-over scraps for food, > > smelly urine for medicine, > > the foot of a tree for a dwelling, > > cast-off rags for robes: > > He is a man > > of the four directions. > > > > * * * > > > > This is enough for me -- > > desiring to do jhana, > > resolute, mindful; > > enough for me -- > > desiring the goal, > > resolute, > > a monk; > > enough for me -- > > desiring comfort, > > resolute, > > in training; > > enough for me -- > > desiring my duty, > > resolute, > > Such. > > > > * * * > > > > There is no such pleasure for me > > in the music of a five-piece band > > as there is when my mind > > is at one, > > seeing the Dhamma > > aright. > > > > > > [Thag XVIII] > > > > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/study/recognizing.html#contentment > > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/khuddaka/theragatha/thag18 > > .html 31684 From: Philip Date: Tue Mar 23, 2004 5:20pm Subject: Fever (was "right understanding for beginners") Hello Ken, and all. K:> Yes, with an intellectual grasp of nama and rupa, we can know (in > our beginners' way) that self has no role to play in reality: We > can appreciate the brilliance of the ariyan mind without presuming > to emulate it. Every morning I read one chapter of the Dhammapada and reflect on my understanding of it, so as I go through in a cycle and come around to the same chapter every 3 weeks or so it's very interesting to see how my interpretation is always evolving. This morning I read this in the chapter on Arahants: "In one who has gone the full distaance, is free from sorrow, is fully released in all respects, has abandoned all bonds: no fever is found" This "fever" is very interesting. Another translation is "fever of passion" I would say that even a beginner's right understanding does away with "fever". The Arahant sees an end of subtle remnants of aversion and attachment - I would think that even a beginner like myself can aspire to see an end of fever. I think of the feverish condition I was in when I found the Abhidhamma and this group. I could hardly sleep at night. Now that fever has subsided and I am seeing things with a basic right understanding. WIll some new discovery come along that gives rise to a new fever of unpleasantly intense enthusiasm? Will circumstances of life overwhelm my beginner's right understanding and give rise to feverish states? It will be interesting to see what unfolds from here, but I dare say there will be less fever involved. I'm also interested in samvega, which does have the potential to be feverish if not accompanied by right understanding. The image of the man with the burning turban keeps coming back. We are taught to practice with a certain urgency like a person whose turban is on fire. How challenging to practice with urgency without being feverish! Again, I think of the Christian mystic Meister Eckhart who said "a great fire is burning under heaven, but heaven is not the least affected by it." BTW, could anyone tell me more about the Pali word that is used for "fever? ((Ch. VII line 90 of the Dhammapada) Metta, Phil 31685 From: Ken O Date: Tue Mar 23, 2004 5:46pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: On Control Hi Swee Boon These are questions of kamma ;-). Buddha rejected that. A person murderous thought can be arisen due to past actions (habitual effect) but whether the person will act on it, will depend on whether he has wise intention on that moment. I give you A condition B previously. latency of A will condition B (increase murderous thoughts) when this person met a chance to kill, will B condition C(killing). If at that time when B arise then there arise in B citta wise attention arise due to accumulation (assuming D), B will not condition C, B will condition D. If there is not, B will condition C (do the killing). These are just simple rules to understand a complex behaviour. Ken O 31686 From: matjinepal Date: Tue Mar 23, 2004 8:28pm Subject: Theravada Cosmology Hi!! Sawatdee!! Namaste!! I just joined this group and I am really excited to get involved. First of all, my name is Matt and I am a student from NJ, USA (but I lived in Chiang Mai, Thailand and Nuwakot, Nepal) and I am a follower of the Theravada tradition, with basic knowledge of the Mahayana tradition (which I am going to study on Sikkim, India in June). 1) My first question is what does the theravada cosmology have to do with khamma? I can see and understand some of the symbolism in the Mahayana cosmology, but I draw a blank when trying to decipher the Theravada. Can anybody help me out here? 2) I have an interested topic for discussion if anybody is interested. After living and volunteering outside of Chiang Mai, Thailand I have become quite familiar with the mood up there. One of the largest problems I have seen is the growth greed, dukkha, caused by tourism and various other "technologies". How can Buddhists around the world cope with the growing material dependence of our world? By the four noble truths: dukkha, samudaya, nirodha, magga -- suffering is caused by greedy desire. How do Buddhists live in cities, surrounded by material dependence, like Bangkok of Ho Chi Minh City for example?? Any opinions? Thanks!! Sawatdeenakhap; Namaskaar -Matt 31687 From: hasituppada Date: Wed Mar 24, 2004 0:38am Subject: Re: On Control Hello Swee Boon, I would rather call them decisions; mental-decisions, there are many that come along in Vipassana. They may not be "controls" with metta, Hasituppada ____________________________________________________________________ If the same thought comes over and over again you let in another thought, "like a carpenter would drive in a nail on top of another to remove it". Well, isn't the decision to let in another thought a form of control? Isn't there volition involved? Swee Boon 31688 From: christine_forsyth Date: Wed Mar 24, 2004 1:27am Subject: Re: Fever (was "right understanding for beginners") Hello Phil, Hope this is of some help - from the PTS Dictionary: http://dsal.uchicago.edu/dictionaries/pali/index.html "Parilaha (p. 435) [pari+daha of dah, cp. paridahati. On change of d and Q see Geiger, P.Gr. s 423] burning, fever; fig. fever of passion, consumption, distress, pain D III.238 (avigata°), 289 (°nanatta); M I.101 (kame); S II.143 sq. (°nanatta), 151 (kama°; vyapada°, vihinsa°); III.7 sq. (tanha, pipasa, p.), 190 (vigata°); IV.387; V.156 (kayasmin), 451 (jati°, jara°); A I.68 (kama°), 137 (ragaja, mohaja etc.); II.197 (vighata); III.3, 245 sq., 388 sq.; IV.461 sq.; Sn 715 (=ragajo va dosajo va appamattako pi p. SnA 498); Dh 90 (cp. DhA II.166: duvidho p. kayiko cetasiko ca); Nd2 374 (kama°); J II.220; Miln 97, 165, 318; ThA 41, 292; VvA 44; PvA 230." metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Philip" wrote: > BTW, could anyone tell me more about the Pali word that is used > for "fever? ((Ch. VII line 90 of the Dhammapada) > > Metta, > Phil 31689 From: Sukinderpal Singh Narula Date: Wed Mar 24, 2004 1:34am Subject: Re: the self. . . how?/Jack Hi Swee Boon, > Now a straight forward answer would be: Yes, it is possible to strive > without self-identity view. How? By making good effort in practicing > mindfulness immersed in the body and not assuming the five aggregates > to be the self, or the self as possessing the five aggregates, or the > five aggregates as in the self or the self as in the five aggregates. Yes, satipatthana can arise to take paramattha dhammas as objects, at such moments the effort will be `right' and `good'. And also there is `no assuming the five aggregates to be the self', and so on. But the conditions have to be there, and `intention' plays little, if any role in this. Swee Boon, how does one determine if the citta is kusala? Does not this perception require panna of a very high degree? > This, I think is the method the Buddha used to achieve Enlightenment. > By using the 4th jhana as the basis for his mindfulness immersed in > the body, and not assuming any self-identity with regards to the > five aggregates, he penetrated to the right knowledge of anatta. Buddha's experience is *not* a method to be followed. He arrived at that point purely by conditions, the major of which are the perfections of the Parami. He had no idea about the Eightfold path and Anatta up until the time when he attained enlightenment. In other words his `striving' *was* with self-view, even when the divine eye arose to know `kamma and rebirth of beings'. It was only after the Eightfold path arose that he understood the meaning of Anatta. Of course `self-view' does not arise all the time, but it is there as latent tendency. All Buddhas are different from Savakas. This is why elsewhere I suggested that anyone who has heard the Teachings and yet insist on Jhana as being the method to reach the goal would get neither. If jhana is not a natural behavior as is any other behavior, in which case the Jhana cittas can become objects of insight, then one is *not* following the Buddha's teachings when one thinks about *using* jhana. BTW, jhana too cannot be *aimed* at if one's natural inclinations and hence lifestyle does not accord with the fact of the `danger in sense objects'. This too requires panna of a very high level. I believe also that those who practice what they call jhana or absorption, are doing something they have accumulated for many lifetimes, some form of Samadhi or the other. The fact that they come across the Buddha's teachings and are attracted, does not mean that their views will be corrected, in fact the chance of making wrong connections are very high since they are attached to certain mental states. Anyway, the main point is that, panna that sees the danger in sense objects and vipassana panna are totally different, though the former can be a base for the latter. And related to this, is the idea that `concentration' has to be developed at least by `constant mindfulness', so as to finally be able to `penetrate' realities. This is another wrong view. Panna of Buddha kind understands any and every reality. The idea is not to chase after `ideals' and `ideas', but to grow slowly in understanding the present moment. Jhana on the other hand sees danger of `sensuality' and so seeks to `block out' such experiences. But Buddha's teachings understood correctly should lead one not `away' but to face what `is' as much as the accumulated panna can know and understand. In the beginning it is going to be `intellectual' but only this would be consistent with what it means to *learn* and *grow in understanding*. Anything else looks to me like a pipe dream. Think about it. Metta, Sukin. 31690 From: abhidhammika Date: Wed Mar 24, 2004 5:45am Subject: Satipa.t.thaana Suttam As Vipassanaa Suttam: To Nina Dear Nina, Phil and all How are you? I am okay. Nina wrote: "Thank you very much for your post. I enjoyed eading it." If you enjoyed this thread, you would also like its sequel below. Suan _______________ _________ _____ ____ Dear Dhamma friends How are you? The following contains a refutation of Jeffery Brooks's wrong views and misrepresentation of Satapa.t.thaana Suttam. Please enjy it. :-) Suan Lu Zaw ______________ _________ _______ Dear Herman, Howard, Stephhen and all Herman wrote: "So, to cut a long story short, awareness of breathing combines many, many different fields of perception. Not to mention all sorts of thinking that gets incorporated as in "breathing out long" or "breathing out short", "nostrils", "chest" and so forth." Yes, you are spot-on, Herman. As soon as the Buddha began teaching "Iti ajjattam vaa kaaye kaayaanupassii viharati, bahiddhaa vaa kaaye kaayaanupassii viharati... (translations in the previous posts)" in Satipa.t.thaana Suttam, he has left the teaching on Samatha practice, and moved on to teaching Vipassanaa practice. Aacariya Buddhaghosa in the Commentary On Exhalation And Inhalation in Satipa.t.thaana Suttam advised the practitioners to go upto the Fourth Ruupa Jhaana (if they could, of course). Then, he advised them to get out of the Jhaana and investigate the real phenomena as follows. "so jhaanaa vu.t.thahitvaa assaasapassaase vaa parigga.nhaati jhaana~ngaani vaa." Section 347, Mahaa Satipa.t.thaana, Mahaavaggo, Diighanikaaya A.t.thakathaa. "Having got out from the Jhaana, he explores either exhalation and inhalation or the components of the Jhaana." In short, the practitioner with the crystal clear near-jhaana concentration (upacaara samaadhi), begins to reason, intellectualise, and generalise the real phenomena which are either instances of matter or mental associates (cetasikas) in the form of the components of the Jhaana. He would keep doing until he gains the liberational insight into the nature of things (Vipassanaa). In conclusion, the Buddha taught wise observation of exhalation and inhalation in Satipa.t.thaana Suttam only to go beyond Samatha Jhaanas and attain Vipassanaa insight. This leaves us to reaffirm that Satapa.t.thaana Suttam is the Vipassanaa Suttam. With regards, Suan http://www.bodhiology.org "Egberdina" wrote: Hi Suan, I am very interested in the discussion so far, so I thought I'd go back to this point, and make some comments. "abhidhammika" wrote: > > > "Internally or privately" means one's body of exhalation and > inhalation while "externally" refers to other people's bodies of > exhalations and inhalations. > > Please remember that the Section under discussion is how to live > observing wisely the bodily functions of breathing out and breathing > in. > > Thus, the adverb "internally" specifies one's bodily functions of > exhalation and inhalation while the adverb "externally" specifies > other people's bodily functions of breathing out and breathing in. > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: Dear Suan, how are you? Thank you very much for your post. I enjoyed eading it. Nina. op 22-03-2004 15:42 schreef abhidhammika op suanluzaw@b...: > Stephen has asked me if the term "vipassanaa" occurs in > Satipa.t.thaana Suttam, and if it can be found in other Suttams as > well. 31691 From: nidive Date: Wed Mar 24, 2004 6:12am Subject: Re: the self. . . how?/Jack Hi Sukin, > But the conditions have to be there, and `intention' plays > little, if any role in this. Well, skillful 'intention' on practising mindfulness immersed in the body is one of the "conditions". Don't you agree? > Swee Boon, how does one determine if the citta is kusala? Does not > this perception require panna of a very high degree? If I can determine if a particular citta is kusala or not, I would already be an arahant with the analytical knowledges. :-) So, if you are going to wait until panna develops to such a high degree, you won't ever even reach the sotapatti gate. It's just impossible. :-( But there is a method to determine if an action is skillful or not. See the Buddha's instructions to Rahula. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/majjhima/mn061.html > Buddha's experience is *not* a method to be followed. He arrived at > that point purely by conditions, the major of which are the > perfections of the Parami. He had no idea about the Eightfold path > and Anatta up until the time when he attained enlightenment. In > other words his `striving' *was* with self-view, even when the > divine eye arose to know `kamma and rebirth of beings'. It was only > after the Eightfold path arose that he understood the meaning of > Anatta. Of course `self-view' does not arise all the time, but it is > there as latent tendency. Huh? The Eightfold Path arose only after he attained enlightenment? But he has no need for the Eightfold Path after becoming enlightend. Like a raft, after using it to reach the other shore, it is abandoned. Or did I read you wrongly? Regards, Swee Boon 31692 From: Eznir Date: Wed Mar 24, 2004 6:29am Subject: Re: [dsg] Fwd: Paticcasamupada Dear Sarah, (Since this is relevant to the Paticcasamuppada string of messages I thought of posting it here). Sarah in # 31453 : Meanwhile, do you have anything to share or comment on concerning ignorance or the Mahandidana intro? Refer Sammaditti Sutta MN-09 With the arising of taints there is the arising of ignorance. Now one of the taints is the taint of ignorance. Which means that with the arising of ignorance there is the arising of ignorance. Therefore the foundation of ignorance is ignorance itself! This implies that to an uninstructed person it is intrinsically impossible to know that he is ignorant, to know what he is ignorant of, since he is in ignorance. To put it differently: When one is *in* ignorance, one does not *know* ignorance, one is ignorant. Incidently, when one is "in" consciousness, one doesn't "know" consciousness, one is "it". Contrary to the belief that one can "see" consciousness. That is impossible. Coming back to ignorance, the state of ignorance is such that one does not recognize ignorance for what it is, much like the class of people "who do not know that they do not know that they do not know!" And what are they ignorant of? The four noble truths. (1) Suffering. (2)Its arising. (3)Its cessation. (4)The path of practice leading to its cessation. The significance of all four must be understood in total, and their meanings well pondered with reflective acceptance. Only then the cessation of ignorance will just begin! metta eznir --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > Dear Christine & All, > > --- christine_forsyth wrote: > Dear Group, > > > > RobertK has written this post on D.O. and I thought dsg members might > > find it worthwhile to consider also. > .... > There are also these posts (inc. several of Rob's) in U.P. If anyone has > spare time over the weekend or following weeks, they may like to take a > look and repost any as relevant in the study corner: > > Dependent Origination (Paticca Samuppada) > > 822, 8562, 11031, 11168, 11210,11223, 11234, 11326, 11425, 11609, 12256, > 12286, 12346, 12723, 20634, 29364, 29435, 30771, 30984 > > Metta, > > Sarah > ====== > > > 31693 From: nidive Date: Wed Mar 24, 2004 7:09am Subject: Re: On Control Hi Ken, And how does wise attention arise? Does it not arise all because of past conditions? And how does unwise attention arise? Does it not arise all because of past conditions? This does not refute the statement "a person is a murderer all because of past conditions" or the statement "a person is not a murderer all because of past conditions". Regards, Swee Boon 31694 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Mar 24, 2004 10:24am Subject: Re: [dsg] Degrees of sati Hi Philip, op 24-03-2004 01:57 schreef Philip op plnao@j...: Could I ask first of all what is meant by "object mindfulness", as > opposed to "an object of mindfulness." Is it mindfulness that is > capable of taking an object? N: Sati cetasika arises with citta and can thus shares the object with citta. Since sati arises with each sobhana citta there are many levels of it. Sati is non-forgetful, heedful of what is wholesome. Sati of dana is non-forgetful of generosity, sati of sila is non-forgetful of abstaining from evil, sati of samatha is mindful of the meditation subject. Sati of satipatthana is mindful of a paramattha dhamma so that understanding of it can be developed. Its object is citta, cetasika and rupa. The aim is to know them as they truly are, as impermanent, dukkha and anatta. One level of sati does not exclude the others, there is no rule. Who knows where citta travels in a day? Nina. 31695 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Mar 24, 2004 10:24am Subject: Vis. 68, ageing of rupas Vis. 68, ageing of rupas 22. 'Ageing' has the characteristic of maturing (ripening) material instances. Its function is to lead on towards [their termination]. It is manifested as the loss of newness without the loss of individual essence, like oldness in paddy. Pali: sabhaavaanapagamepi navabhaavaapagamapaccupa.t.thaanaa viihipuraa.nabhaavo viya. Tiika: Sabhaavaanapagamepiiti kakkha.lataadisabhaavassa avigamepi. As to the expression, without the loss of its specific nature, because the roughness etc. of this nature has not disappeared. thitikkha.ne hi jaraa, na ca tadaa dhammo sabhaava.m vijahati naama. The decay is during the moments of its presence, and during those moments that dhamma does not abandon its specific nature. N: The paddy becomes rough, but it is still paddy, rough paddy. With this simile it is demonstrated that rupa, after it has arisen, when it is still present, is decaying and on its way to destruction. Vis text: Its proximate cause is matter that is maturing (ripening). This is said with reference to the kind of ageing that is evident through seeing alteration in teeth, etc.,as their brokenness, and so on (cf. Dhs. 644). But that of immaterial states, which has no such [visible] alteration, is called hidden ageing. And that in earth, water, rocks, the moon, the sun, etc., is called incessant ageing. [450] Pali Vis: paripaccamaanaruupapada.t.thaanaa. kha.n.diccaadibhaavena dantaadiisu vikaaradassanato ida.m paaka.tajara.m sandhaaya vutta.m. aruupadhammaana.m pana pa.ticchannajaraa naama hoti, tassaa esa vikaaro natthi, yaa ca pathavii udakapabbatacandimasuuriyaadiisu aviicijaraa naama. Tiika: ³Aruupadhammaanan²ti ida.m tesa.m jaraaya su.t.thu pa.ticchannataaya vutta.m. As to the expression, immaterial states, this is said with reference to their ageing that is well hidden. Ruupadhammaanampi hi kha.nikajaraa pa.ticchannaa eva, yaa aviicijaraatipi vuccati. Of rupa dhammas the momentary ageing is also hidden, and this is also called incessant (decaying). Esa vikaaroti kha.n.diccaadivikaaramaaha. So hi aruupadhammesu na labbhati. As to the expression, such (visible) alteration, he spoke of the alteration as to broken teeth, etc. This cannot be applied to the immaterial dhammas. Yaa aviicijaraa naama, tassaapi esa vikaaro natthiiti sambandhitabba.m. As to what is called incessant ageing [of rupas], there is no such (visible) alteration of this either in this connection. Natthi etissaa jaraaya viiciiti aviicijaraa, navabhaavato duvi~n~neyyantarajaraati attho. In the case of incessant ageing there is no (visible )alteration, and the meaning is that the ageing is difficult to know because of newness [in appearance]. N: As to ageing of mental phenomena, each citta has three submoments: arising, presence and falling away. These moments are extremely short. At the moment of presence the citta is more powerful, and the cittas that are able to originate rupas can do so only at that moment. The moment of presence of citta and its falling away follows immediately upon the moment of arising. Then citta is succeeded by the next one. As to incessant ageing, the rupas that constitute a rock are ageing all the time, but this is invisible, since rupas are replaced so long as there are conditions. Thus, this is not as obvious as broken teeth, etc. ***** Nina. 31696 From: Htoo Naing Date: Wed Mar 24, 2004 10:20am Subject: Total Tolerating Tinting Taint TOTAL TOLERATING TINTING TAINT Changing is that frame , mainly quit cloth wane, Painting is not the same, gain we a bit more drain. Maintaining is not framed, changing tint props lanes, Obtaining pics not the same, changing puts sense sane. Brainy is that insane, changing brain up sane, Attaining quit that insane, maintaining it up full saint. Draining is that vain, training gains that sane, When that up full saint, then left all fool taints. HTOO NAING 31697 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Mar 24, 2004 10:24am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: charact. of rupas, Htoo Dear Htoo, op 23-03-2004 19:00 schreef htootintnaing op htootintnaing@y...: > Could you please explain the relationship between temperature and > rupa? Is utu exactly temperature? N: Utu: PED: season, condition of climate. In the context of the Abh: tejaa dhaatu: Element of Fire or heat. It can be translated as temperature, being heat or cold. It is one of the four great Elements and it arises in each unit (kalapa) of rupa. It is also one of the four factors that originate rupa. See below. The rupa that is temperature cannot originate other rupas at its arising moment, only during the moments of its presence. I repeat here some details, translated from Thai, Dhamma Issues: There are four groups of rúpa originating from temperature, utu: 1. The pure octad, suddhatthaka kalåpa, a group of eight rúpas consisting of only the eight inseparable rúpas (avinibbhoga rúpas). This group arises for the first time in living beings at the moment of presence of the rebirth-consciousness and from then on it arises at each moment of presence of the rúpa which is temperature [6]. 2. The sound nonad, a group of nine rúpas: the eight inseparable rúpas and sound. This is sound which does not originate from citta. It can arise with rúpas which are dead matter and with rúpas of the body. 3. The undecad of lightness, lahutå, a group of eleven rúpas. They are the eight inseparable rúpas and the three vikåra rúpas, the rúpas of changeability, namely: lightness, lahutå, plasticity, mudutå, and wieldiness, kammaññatå. These three rúpas can be the condition for bodily movement when citta intends to cause such movement [7]. 4.The dodecad of sound and lightness, a group consisting of twelve rúpas. They are the eight inseparable rúpas, the three vikåra rúpas and sound. These rúpas are produced by temperature when sound arises together with these vikåra rúpas [8] . Footnotes: 6:At the moment of presence (titthi khana) of the rebirth-consciousness, utu, that is the element of heat, produced by kamma at the arising moment of the rebirth-consciousness, can in its turn produce new rúpas. Rúpa such as heat or nutrition cannot at their arising moment produce other rúpas, because they are too weak. Heat and nutrition can, during the moments of their presence, produce other rúpas and they do so throughout life. 7. Even if citta intends to produce rúpa in order to move the limbs, it cannot do so if there are not also vikåra rúpas conditioned by the right temperature. The three factors of citta, temperature and nutrition each produce groups of rúpa that include the vikåra rúpas. These three groups support one another. See ³Survey of Paramattha Dhammas², Appendix to Rúpa, by Acharn Suijn. 8. When there is sound by snapping the fingers or applauding, vikåra rúpas arise together with sound. See Survey of Paramattha Dhammas, Appendix to Rúpa. *** H: Is sound the effect of temperature? N: it can be originated by citta or by temperature. When it is sound outside (of nature, forest, etc.) it can only be produced by temperature, like all other rupas that are outside the body. Nina. 31698 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Wed Mar 24, 2004 3:00pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Theravada Cosmology Hi, Matt Welcome to the group from me. For a student you have certainly managed to get around to some interesting places, with more to come! Let me try to give a brief answer to your questions. 1. I don't know of any connection between kamma and cosmology. As I understand it, they are separate and non-overlapping forces. The force of 'cause and result' obtains between intentional action (kamma) and momentary sense-door experiencing (vipaka). The appearing and disappearing of world systems etc (which is what I understand by cosmology in this context) operates under its own natural law. 2. How can Buddhists cope with growing material dependency? I would say that the only real escape from this and other problems is escape from samsara altogether. So the goal remains the same, as does the practice, namely, the development of insight. Any coping on a shorter term basis is a patch-up job. I hope others will come in with other suggestions, too. And I also hope you find your time here useful. Jon --- matjinepal wrote: > Hi!! Sawatdee!! Namaste!! > > I just joined this group and I am really excited to get involved. > First of all, my name is Matt and I am a student from NJ, USA (but > I > lived in Chiang Mai, Thailand and Nuwakot, Nepal) and I am a > follower of the Theravada tradition, with basic knowledge of the > Mahayana tradition (which I am going to study on Sikkim, India in > June). ... 31699 From: kenhowardau Date: Wed Mar 24, 2004 3:25pm Subject: Re: Sensing dhamma as they really are ( 16 ) Dear Htoo, I know, from your conversations with Sarah, that you are aware of the difference between `concentration on concepts' and `satipatthana.' So I wonder, when you write about "sensing dhamma as they really are," why do you only mention concepts? Could you be more specific, please? To take one example: when the meditator `knows that he is planning and thinking,' what, exactly, does he know? At the moment he experiences the concept of planning, there is no satipatthana, is there? Similarly, when you say, "he knows that he is in front of the commode," there is no satipatthana then, is there? There is just the experience of concepts (concepts of `I,' `in front' and `commode') – which are things all of us - Buddhist and non-Buddhist alike - know perfectly well. Admittedly, the Satipatthana Sutta uses language similar to the language you have used. However, the people, to whom that sutta was addressed, knew not to confuse concepts with realities. Today, very few people are aware of the difference: we can't describe satipatthana in the way you have without creating serious misunderstanding. I say this as a person who has wasted many, many hours concentrating on concepts – in the mistaken belief that that was what the Buddha taught. These days, I try to warn others not to make the same mistake. Kind regards, Ken H --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Htoo Naing wrote: > Dear Dhamma Friends, > > The meditator has slept and he just wakes up. He knows that he is awake. He knows that he is in bed. He is planning for the day and he also knows that he is planning and thinking. > > 31700 From: Date: Wed Mar 24, 2004 3:49pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Theravada Cosmology Hi Matt, Welcome. Maybe I can rephrase your question on kamma and cosmology and someone else can answer it. What are the 4 planes of existence? How does one come to be reborn into each? What are the kamma resultant consciousnesses and kamma initiating consciousnesses in the 3 mundane planes? What are the kamma resultant consciousnesses and the functional volitional consciousnesses in the supramundane plane? As for life in the big city, I think we have to take it step by step. Larry 31701 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Wed Mar 24, 2004 4:17pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: the self. . . how?/Jack Swee Boon --- nidive wrote: > Hi Jon, ... > There is no control over the 3 characteristics of dhammas. > > But there is control over whether kusala or akusala dhamma arises. > This, I think, is the function of cetana. And in a later post you add: What I mean is that there can be deliberate consideration whether to take a skilfull or unskillful action. Jon: Of course, there can indeed be such deliberation, but the ensuing action may or may not be as we would like it to be. And even if there seems to be some degree of control over the bodily action, what about the accompanying mind-states? Actually, in the suttas there is frequent mention of control of various kinds (mastery over this or that, including kusala mind-states), but not as a general description of the nature of things. > Though cetana is conditioned by many conditions, yet in no way is > the function and power of cetana mitigated by way of being > conditioned thus. Well this seems like a contradiction in terms. By definition, being conditioned surely means being subject to 'outside' forces. > Whether or not self-identity view arises, cetana is still cetana. > Control is still control. > > Cetana is cetana. Self-identity view is self-identity view. The two > are not the same. Neither do they always occur together. I agree that cetana and self-identity view are 2 different dhammas, each of which has its own characteristic, but I don't see control as falling into the same category. Jon 31702 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Wed Mar 24, 2004 3:53pm Subject: Re: [dsg] groups (kalapa) Icaro --- icarofranca wrote: ... > It seems to me an old Bertrand Russel´s quote about propositional logic: > - One says "Scott is Waverley´s author". Propositional logic > evaluates the value (if any) of the links and relationships > between the concepts of 'Scott" and 'Waverley´s Author´...but what´s being > said anyway? The only real entities in these declaration are > 'Scott' - a classic writter - and 'Waverley´s author' - a sentence that is > the same at the preceeding subject: two Dhammas with no relationship > between them, since they are the same! It seems to me that this kind of analysis is somewhat logic-bound (as the name might suggest). I wonder what PL would say about a proposition in these terms: With Scott as author, Waverly came to be ;-)). Here the same core terms, and more or less the same vocabulary, clearly refer to a particular and defined relationship. > Going further on, many oriental languages haven´t even got the present tense "to be" expressed on such sentences! Quite so! And obviously the PL approach would give a different answer to the same piece of expressed information, depending on the language used to express the information. Not only logic-bound, also culture-bound! Jon 31703 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Wed Mar 24, 2004 4:10pm Subject: Re: Backing Off [Re: [dsg] Re: clearing up misunderstandings] Howard --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Jon - Just for the record: I make no claim whatsoever to "high attainments"! ;-)) I believe that what I had was a very small, initial opening, a kind of insight experience in which there was no sense of subjectivity or corresponding objectivity. The experience was terribly frightening, and, most unfortunately, abandoned as soon as it was possible to do so. As far as it went, it was no more then a taste of what the Zennists would call satori, I guess. It seems to have been a useful event in my life, but I make no more claim for it than that. Jon: To my understanding insight involves seeing dhammas more clearly as they truly are. I'm not sure how what you describe here as 'no sense of subjectivity or corresponding objectivity' fits into that description. If you regard it as an experience of 'not-self', was it a particulr dhamma that was seen as 'no-self'? Howard: Part of the usefulness, a small part, was in it enabling me to see that it is actually possible to experience without subject-object duality. It serves as an experiential basis for my interpreting vi~n~nana as subjective (self-oriented) knowing, but that interpretation of vi~n~nana would make sense to me anyway, as I find it clarifies D.O. for me considerably. Jon: I think by 'subject-object duality' you are referring to wrong view or an aspect of it. Wrong view is something the presence or absence of which can be apparent during normal daily life, without having an 'experience'. Insight has many levels, and we should not downplay the importance of the less significant moments of weak insight that can occur as a result of useful reflection on what has been heard or read. By the way, although we live our lives without much right view we must remember that absence of right view does not necessarily mean presence of wrong view. Wrong view is not something that is a more or less constant part of the experience of the unenlightened being, I would suggest. Howard: With regard to the Kalakarama Sutta, I see the following portion of it as describing experience that is free of subject and free of object: "Thus, monks, the Tathagata, when seeing what is to be seen, doesn't construe an [object as] seen. He doesn't construe an unseen. He doesn't construe an [object] to-be-seen. He doesn't construe a seer. "When hearing.... "When sensing.... "When cognizing what is to be cognized, he doesn't construe an [object as] cognized. He doesn't construe an uncognized. He doesn't construe an [object] to-be-cognized. He doesn't construe a cognizer. Thus, monks, the Tathagata -- being the same with regard to all phenomena that can be seen, heard, sensed, & cognized -- is 'Such.' And I tell you: There's no other 'Such' higher or more sublime. Jon: I'm not sure whether you mean, 'free of subject and free of object' or 'free of *a sense of* subject and free of *a sense of* object'. I presume the latter. Objectively speaking, the actual moment of experience of say visible-object is pretty much the same for all beings; it is the *thinking* that occurs in the immediately succeeding moments that differs according to levels of understanding. In the sutta, the words 'when seeing what is to be seen' at the beginning of the passage describe an experience that is common to all beings in this realm. The difference from being to being lies in what comes next in the sutta quote; in the Buddha's case, there is no proliferation. Howard: One more thing: I do believe that when sense of self is fully uprooted (in an arahant) his/her experience then becomes free of any sense of knowing subject and known object. It seems to me that such would have to be the case when atta-sense is completely torn away. This seems close to being tautologous. Jon: To my understanding, the path to enlightenment is developed by seeing more clearly each of the different kinds of dhamma that make up our life as they truly are, whether that be as dhamma that experiences an object or as dhamma that does not experience an object. It is in this manner that the atta-sense presently held in relation to each kind of dhamma, and wrong view of whatever kind, is dispelled. This would include what you describe as 'knowing subject and known object', to the extent that that refers to a kind of wrong view or is implicit in the idea of self. The insight so developed accrues gradually and by stages. It is not satori-like, as far as my reading of the texts indicates. Jon 31704 From: Ken O Date: Wed Mar 24, 2004 7:35pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: On Control Hi Swee Boon Yes accumulations are past conditions that condition wise attention. But whether a person is a murderer is not dependent on past conditions, it depends on present condition. Past accmulations and lantency each play its part on B (the previous example). Lets say for a serial killer, there will be no doubt the probability of killing is very high because of accumulations. But if at that point, panna arise that due to past accmulations, he notice it, and the after notice it, reflect (giving wise attention) on it, killing will cease. But if at that point, even though panna arise due to past accumulations, there is no wise attention to it, killing will continue. Even though wise attention do condition by past conditions, it also much depend on present moment of wise attention on the wise attention arisen from the past ;-). We cannot say just because of accumulation from the past and now what we do is because of the past, that is deterministic. Accmulation only say what is the most probable habit one will react, but it is not deterministic. It is the present moment of attention (be it wise or unwise) together with the arisen accumulation from the past that will determine our next volition. Ken O 31705 From: Ken O Date: Wed Mar 24, 2004 7:58pm Subject: Do we see in dreams Hi all I remember we did discuss that about dreams, and my stand is that there is no seeing in dreams because there is no eye and form in dreaming to conditioned eye conscioness to arise. Here is the sutta quote MN 28 Mahahatthipadopama "If friends, internally eye is intact but no external form comes into range, and there is no corresponding [conscious] engagement, then there is no manifestation of the corresponding class of consciouness. If internally the eye is intact and external forms come into its range, but there is no corresponding [conscious] engagement, then there is no manifestation of the corresponding class of conscoiusness. But when internally the eye is intact and external forms come into its range and there is the corresponding [conscious] engagement, then there is the manifestation of the corresponding class of consciouness." Actually this is prove the sense process is valid because the corresponding [conscious] engagement represents five door adverting consciousness, without it there will be no sense consciouness Ken O 31706 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Mar 24, 2004 9:07pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Satipa.t.thaana Suttam As Vipassanaa Suttam: To Nina Dear Suan, Thank you very much, I fully agree with your conclusion. Just a little remark on: Some people may believe that this is thinking and intellectual understanding, whereas it is keen and sharp pa~n~naa that does not need words, but directly penetrates the true characteristics. Nina. op 24-03-2004 14:45 schreef abhidhammika op suanluzaw@b...: > > In short, the practitioner with the crystal clear near-jhaana > concentration (upacaara samaadhi), begins to reason, intellectualise, > and generalise the real phenomena which are either instances of > matter or mental associates (cetasikas) in the form of the components > of the Jhaana. He would keep doing until he gains the liberational > insight into the nature of things (Vipassanaa). > 31707 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Mar 24, 2004 9:07pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Fwd: Paticcasamupada Dear Eznir, I think it very good you stress this point: N:That is why ignorance is so dangerous. Nina. 31708 From: Date: Wed Mar 24, 2004 5:01pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Fwd: Paticcasamupada Hi, Nina (and Eznir) - In a message dated 3/25/04 12:47:25 AM Eastern Standard Time, nilo@e... writes: > Dear Eznir, > I think it very good you stress this point: foundation of ignorance is ignorance itself! This implies that to an > uninstructed person it is intrinsically impossible to know that he is > ignorant, to know what he is ignorant of, since he is in ignorance. > To put it differently: When one is *in* ignorance, one does not > *know* ignorance, one is ignorant. ...> > N:That is why ignorance is so dangerous. > Nina. > > ============================= On the other hand, there is the following from the Sammaditthi Sutta: _______________________________ (Ignorance) 64. Saying, "Good friend," the bhikkhus delighted and rejoiced in the Venerable Sariputta's words. Then they asked him a further question: "But, friend, might there be another way in which a noble disciple is one of right view... and has arrived at this true Dhamma?" -- "There might be, friends. 65. "When, friends, a noble disciple understands ignorance, the origin of ignorance, the cessation of ignorance, and the way leading to the cessation of ignorance, in that way he is one of right view... and has arrived at this true Dhamma. 66. "And what is ignorance, what is the origin of ignorance, what is the cessation of ignorance, what is the way leading to the cessation of ignorance? Not knowing about suffering, not knowing about the origin of suffering, not knowing about the cessation of suffering, not knowing about the way leading to the cessation of suffering -- this is called ignorance. With the arising of the taints there is the arising of ignorance. With the cessation of the taints there is the cessation of ignorance. The way leading to the cessation of ignorance is just this Noble Eightfold Path; that is, right view... right concentration. 67. "When a noble disciple has thus understood ignorance, the origin of ignorance, the cessation of ignorance, and the way leading to the cessation of ignorance... he here and now makes an end of suffering. In that way too a noble disciple is one of right view... and has arrived at this true Dhamma." _______________________________ So, ignorance is not always complete and all-encompassing. If it were, there would be no escaping from it. But one's ignorance can come to be known, and in so knowing it, it can disappear at that very moment, or at least the movement towards its eventual demise can begin. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 31709 From: Sarah Date: Wed Mar 24, 2004 11:12pm Subject: Re:_[dsg]_Recognizing_the_Dhamma_-_4._Modesty_(§_4.2.) Hi Victor, --- yu_zhonghao wrote: > Hi Sarah, > > Thank you for this post. It got me into doing some research on the > pali original for the word 'modesty'/'modest' in the translation by > Ven. Thanissaro Bhikkhu. .... S: All your research is excellent and I think it’s very interesting. ..... > > The pali original is 'appicchata'/'appiccha'. > > The definitions given in Pali English Dictionary is as following: > > Appicchata (p. 57) (f.) [abstr. fr. prec.] contentment, being > satisfied with little, unostentatiousness Vin iii.21; D iii.115; M > i.13; S ii 202, 208 sq.; A i.12, 16 sq.; iii.219 sq., 448; iv.218, > 280 (opp. mahicchata) > > Appiccha (p. 57) (adj.) [appa + iccha from is, cp. iccha] desiring > little or nothing, easily satisfied, unassuming, contented, > unpretentious .... S: Yes, at first I thought the ‘of few wishes’ definition was the only correct one because I’d seen it in translations and I knew icch- was to wish. I think now that the term has a wider meaning to cover ‘few wishes’ and ‘unassuming’ or ‘modest’ as you give and we really don’t have an English equivalent at all. Very helpful to reflect on. I think in some contexts it may refer to one aspect more than the other, but I’m not sure. A few more refs: Dhp 404 ‘He who is not intimate either with householders or with the homeless ones, who wanders without an abode, who is without desires (appiccha’m), him I call a braahma.na.’ (Narada transl). Sn 628 same lines. Norman transl gives ‘having little desire’. SN 1:63 Bodhi transl gives ‘has few wishes’ SN 1:65 Bodhi gives ‘of few wishes’ in: ‘Sariputta, who is free of anger Of few wishes , gentle, tamed’. .... > The discourse > Anguttara Nikaya VIII.30 > Anuruddha Sutta > To Anuruddha > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an08-030.html > might give us some idea about what it means by 'appicchata' > > In Anuruddha Sutta, the thoughts arose in Ven. Anuruddha's > awareness, and the Buddha characterized them as the thoughts of a > great person: > > > "Good, Anuruddha, very good. It's good that you think these thoughts > of a great person: > > > The first of these thoughts of a great person is: > > > 'This Dhamma is for one who is modest, not for one who is self- > aggrandizing.' > > > In Pali original: > > > Appicchassayam dhammo nàyam dhammo mahicchassa > .... S: Again the PTS transl (Hare) gives ‘who wants little’ but adds a helpful footnote to the commentary which fully supports the wide meaning of appiccha here to cover both meanings: “appicch: comy. This is fourfold: a monk is not greedy for the requisites; does not allow his attainments to be known; nor his learning; nor that he keeps up the thirteen ascetic practices.” Probably we’d have to say ‘wants little and is modest’ to cover the range....or 'of modest needs and unassuming' Helpful, thanks Victor. No disagreements;-) Metta, Sarah ==== > In the following passage (passage § 4.1.) , the Buddha further > explained with reference to what 'This Dhamma is for one who is > modest, not for one who is self-aggrandizing' was said: > > > "'This Dhamma is for one who is modest, not for one who is self- > aggrandizing.' Thus was it said. <....> 31710 From: Sarah Date: Wed Mar 24, 2004 11:53pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Recognizing_the_Dhamma_-_4._Modesty_(§_4.2.) Dear All, --- Sarah wrote: > The commentary (PTS transl) is quite short and certainly the very young > Sumana’s qualities and accumulations were very, very special(!!), so let > me share it here: > > “Reborn in this Buddha-age he took birth in the family of a certain > lay-disciple who had become the lay-attendant of the venerable Thera > Anuruddha. etc ...... A friend asked me off-list more about the translation. Although I wrote it was the PTS transl, I should add more detail because there are at least two translations I know of. The copy I used is in an older translation of the verses by Mrs Rhys Davids. I also have a more recent translation by K.R.Norman which has a much better translation of the verses and extensive notes, but (for me) is disappointing like his more recent and detailed Sutta Nipata translation in that no commentary additions are given. So I use both. I was also asked for the names of all the Pali commentaries and I think they can be found at this link: http://www.mahidol.ac.th/budsir/appendix.htm Also, see the PTS catalogue to find out which have been translated into English: http://www.palitext.demon.co.uk/ .... <....> >when the child was seven years old, he was ordained. And > from > the ripeness of his insight, it was not long before he acquired sixfold > abhi~n~naa, waiting the while upon the Thera. <...> > >[Thag VI.10] > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/study/recognizing.html#modesty .... While I’ve popped back on this thread, let me add another note on Sumana. It’s quite likely he’s also the Suman in CC1 (if Anuruddha were also his uncle) according to a footnote by Mrs R-D and also the Dict of PPN. The latter also gives: > 4. Sumana. A pupil of Anuruddha. He represented the monks from Páveyyaka at the Second Council. Vásabhagámi was his colleague. See also Sumana (8). Mhv.iv.49, 58; Dpv.iv.48; v.24; Vin.ii.305, etc.< .... Mrs R-D also mentions this. The Second council was held 100 years after the Buddha’s parinibbana in Vesali, so Sumana would have been well into his century by then. Looking at the Mahavamsa now (PTS transl, The Second council, p24) the ‘great theras’ including Sumana who ‘knew the thoughts of the Greatest of the Sages’ were questioned on the Vinaya points raised by the ‘ten thousand heretical bhikkhus’. All the ten points (including the one about receiving and using money) were of course refuted and declared ‘unlawful, according to tradition’. The Mahavamsa also says that 6 of these 8 ‘great theras’ were students of Ananda and two, including Sumana, were students of Anuruddha. “These eight fortunate theras had beheld the Tathagata in time past. One hundred and twelve thousand bhikkhus had come together, and of all these bhikkhus the thera Revata then was the chief.” Metta, Sarah ===== 31711 From: Sarah Date: Thu Mar 25, 2004 0:08am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: clearing up misunderstandings Hi Howard, --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Sarah - > > There is little useful that I ccan add in the following. I think > our > positions may be closer than expected at first glance, but I don't think > they > are the same. ..... Thank you for your efforts and clarifications anyway. I’m glad that we might at least be on the same track. I think from here that the only way to make sure we’re on the same train would be to look at any sutta or text you find helpful rather than just comparing our different understandings of experiences. I’m very glad we at least agree on the last, but possibly most important, point: .... > ------------------------------------------------------ > Howard: > You are correct. The thinking back becomes more and more faulty > the > more remote the event. Thinking and concept replace actual experience, > the life > is taken out of the experience, and it is turned into a dead remnant. > And, > yes, it can become "my exprience," and then it becomes nothing but a > stagnation > point. > ---------------------------------------------------- .... I think you’ve expressed it very well indeed. Again I’m reminded of the oft-quoted Bhaddekeratta Sutta verse: “Let not a person revive the past Or on the future build his hopes; For the past has been left behind And the future has not been reached Instead with insight let him see Each presently arisen state;....” .... No matter how worthy or essential any concepts or memories may seem, the chasing after or clinging onto these illusions is always futile as I see it and takes us away from insight into the ‘presently arisen state’. Metta, Sarah ===== 31712 From: Sarah Date: Thu Mar 25, 2004 0:28am Subject: Re: [dsg] Theravada Cosmology Hi Matt, Sawatdee Kha! (Larry & Jon) Another welcome and big thanks for giving us the detail without any requests and the good questions. All you have to do now is to put a photo in the album on the home page and you get full brownie points;-) .... > 1) My first question is what does the theravada cosmology have to do > with khamma? I can see and understand some of the symbolism in the > Mahayana cosmology, but I draw a blank when trying to decipher the > Theravada. Can anybody help me out here? .... I tend to draw blanks when I hear the word ‘cosmology’ too. Anyway, to answer Larry’s helpful clarifying questions, pls look at these detailed posts from RobM and Steve and if you can find away to engage either of them further, encouraging them out of lurkerland, you’ll have earned more than brownie points: RobM http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/26158 Steve http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/27575 If you have spare time, you might also like to look under these headings in Useful Posts: Rebirth and Planes of Existence, Worlds, http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/Useful_Posts I hope you can add more. ...... >How do Buddhists > live in cities, surrounded by material dependence, like Bangkok of > Ho Chi Minh City for example?? Any opinions? .... Many of us here live in cities. Jon and I live in Hong Kong. If we moved to the countryside would the roots of our problems (greed, hatred, delusion) be any different? Are the problems really in society and the world out there or are they the same problems that have always existed in spite of any superficial changes in lifestyle, dress, housing or politics? On this list we have Buddhists from all over the world but the teachings about the truths are universal and apply to all. How does this sound. Look forward to your contributions, Matt. Metta, Sarah ====== 31713 From: Sarah Date: Thu Mar 25, 2004 1:05am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sensing dhamma as they really are ( 15 ) Hi Htoo, Good to see you back from your trip and even breaking into verse;-) --- htootintnaing wrote: > > S: As we discussed before, we cannot say all dhammaarammana are > dhamma-ayatana. Thoughts (of the dove) are concepts and objects > (arammana)of citta, but only paramattha dhammas are ayatanas (sense > bases). > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: I will be grateful if you explain this further. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- .... S: This is what I wrote from my understanding before: Arammana (object) ******** 1. visible object 2. sound 3. odour 4. taste 5. body-impression 6. mind-object (dhammaaramma.na) ..... Note: Dhammarammana (mind-object) 1. nama, inc. nibbana 2. rupa 3. concept (pannatti) ..... Note: any arammana, including concepts can be the object (i.e experienced by) of consciousness (citta/mano/vi~n~nana) ==================== Ayatana (bases, sense fields) ******* a) 6 internal bases 1. eye-base/sense (cakkhu pasada rupa = cakkhayatana) 2. ear-base 3. nose-base 4. tongue-base 5. body-sense base 6. mind-base/consciousness (manaayatana) (refers to all cittas) ...... b) 6 external bases 1. visible object (rupayatana) 2. sound 3. odour 4. taste 5. tactile object - cohesion, temperature, solidity 6. mind-object (dhammayatana) ....... Note: Dhammayatana (mind-objects) 1. All cetasikas 2. subtle rupas (sukhuma rupas) 3. nibbana ....... Note: Ayatanas refer ONLY to ultimate realities (paramattha dhammas) and NOT to concepts. ================================================= Confusions arise from translated terms of dhamma, dhammarammana, mano, manayatana, dhammayatana etc . Furthemore, sometimes, dhammarammana refers to dhammayatana and we have to look at the context and commentary notes. ..... Note: dhamma can refer to paramattha dhammas only or to dhammarammana inc pannatti and has to be understood in context. ..... A rough guide: B.Bodhi:- ayatana -base mano (manayatana)- mind, mental dhamma (dhammayatana), dhammarammana- mental phenomenon, mental object, mind object B.Thanissaro:- mano (manayatana) - intellect dhamma (dhammayatana) - ideas ..... For more details, see: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/22188> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: May be. What is manayatana? > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- .... S:Manayatana refers to all cittas (inc. bhavanga cittas). ..... > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: But concepts can be known by paramattha dhamma. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- .... S:This relates to the questions Ken H is asking you. Concepts can be the objects of cittas in the mind-door process of course and they can even be the objects of cittas with panna as in samatha development. However, they can never be the objects of satipatthana as you agreed before;-) Please let me know if there’s any disagreement ....it’s more fun to travel together. I hope you’ll also clarify and find a way to travel with Ken H too;-) Metta, Sarah ===== 31714 From: Sarah Date: Thu Mar 25, 2004 1:47am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vipassanaa As A Synonym Of Anupassanaa In Satipa.t.thaana Suttam Hi Suan, --- abhidhammika wrote: > The quote you gave from the Pali Vibhanga (2nd text of Abhidhamma) was very helpful indeed. The PTS English translation is very inadequate and confusing I found, so I won't add it as I'd intended. I look forward to any further gems you have. Metta, Sarah ====== 31715 From: gazita2002 Date: Thu Mar 25, 2004 2:38am Subject: Small reminders Hello all, Here are some little reminders for daily life: "The intention to do harm brings harm to the place where harm originated. We never know when vipaka will come. If one is not courageous enough, one clings to calmness for sure. Life is a dream. When one knows the citta that dreams one is awake. One wakes up for one short moment of sati and then the dream takes over. The sound that is heard now does not hear anything. We overlook the obvious all the time, especially Nama, the experience which makes it possible to experience colour right now. One's understanding has to learn to know the obvious, not to overlook what is staring one in the face. One is burnt by one's desire all the time. In reality one is attached to one's feeling, not really the person...." Patience, courage and good cheer, Azita. 31716 From: Sukinderpal Singh Narula Date: Thu Mar 25, 2004 3:07am Subject: Re: the self. . . how?/Jack Hi Swee Boon, > > But the conditions have to be there, and `intention' plays > > little, if any role in this. > > Well, skillful 'intention' on practising mindfulness immersed > in the body is one of the "conditions". Don't you agree? There is seeing now, there is touching and hearing, can you intend to be mindful? Of course, yes! But this wouldn't be satipatthana which has paramattha dhamma as object, but of a `concept' of a *these* infected with vipallasa and/or of the kind taught by Goenka and others. Sati arises only when the conditions are right. For one reality to come to be, requires such a complex set of conditions that is a case of tunnel vision which thinks that `intention' makes any difference. More important than intention, is seeing the value in `practice', because this itself would be a level of panna. And it is not infected by any ambition. > > Swee Boon, how does one determine if the citta is kusala? Does not > > this perception require panna of a very high degree? > > If I can determine if a particular citta is kusala or not, I would > already be an arahant with the analytical knowledges. :-) No, not an arahat, not even a sotapanna. But I don't particularly care, because I don't need to determine if this citta is kusala or not, because it has already been conditioned to arise and has fallen away. And I have no idea about trying to arouse kusala cittas or having kusala intentions. But this does not mean that I don't see the value of kusala and the disadvantage of akusala. :-) > So, if you are going to wait until panna develops to such a high > degree, you won't ever even reach the sotapatti gate. It's just > impossible. :-( The `wait' is in relation to an idea of `doing' something to get `there' from `here'. But of course, you have such an idea and that is why I asked you the question. > But there is a method to determine if an action is skillful or not. > See the Buddha's instructions to Rahula. > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/majjhima/mn061.html First, I think that this advice to Rahula primarily stresses the role of `honesty' in purifying one's mind. All the "wise reflections" regarding deeds through body, speech or mind, is also for the same purpose of purifying the mind. It is in relation to realities *already* conditioned to arise. Also it must be understood that no such wise reflection can take place without a degree of sati and panna. So the method is effective only when the right conditions are there, and volition plays only a subordinate role. If there is sati and panna which recognizes the akusala, only then will any wise reflection occur. If there is no panna, then one could use such advice as a `commandment' and end up with a conclusion centered on the `self', which is akusala. But our discussion is about the development of satipatthana; here the above advice has no direct relevance. > > Buddha's experience is *not* a method to be followed. He arrived at > > that point purely by conditions, the major of which are the > > perfections of the Parami. He had no idea about the Eightfold path > > and Anatta up until the time when he attained enlightenment. In > > other words his `striving' *was* with self-view, even when the > > divine eye arose to know `kamma and rebirth of beings'. It was only > > after the Eightfold path arose that he understood the meaning of > > Anatta. Of course `self-view' does not arise all the time, but it is > > there as latent tendency. > > Huh? The Eightfold Path arose only after he attained enlightenment? > But he has no need for the Eightfold Path after becoming enlightend. > Like a raft, after using it to reach the other shore, it is abandoned. > Or did I read you wrongly? Only the magga citta can have Nibbana as object at the moment of enlightenment. Yes, I think you misread me. Metta, Sukin. 31717 From: christine_forsyth Date: Thu Mar 25, 2004 3:45am Subject: somanassa :-) :-) :-) :-) Dear Sukin, Sarah, Jon, Betty, Shakti, Azita (and anyone else who has, from time to time, put up with my harangues about Soi Dogs) I just KNEW that a Buddhist nation would eventually work out it's own way of humanely handling Homeless Furry Beings. :-) :-) :-):-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-):-) :-) :-):-) :-) metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- --------------------- Buddhist monks befriend Bangkok's stray dogs The Dhamma Times, 25 March 2004 Associated Press, Bangkok - Six grubby dogs slept on the steps of a Buddhist temple here, as monks inside chanted. When the last prayer was intoned, the voice of the abbot crackled over a megaphone: "OK everybody, get out there and grab some dogs!" A dozen monks dressed in saffron robes snapped on surgical gloves, armed themselves with giant nets and fanned out over the grounds. They pulled dogs out from under benches and cars, and plucked them from the shade thrown by statues of the Buddha. The dogs were stuffed into a cage, and sprayed for ticks and fleas. Later, a veterinarian neutered some of the mutts, before setting them free to again roam Bangkok's gutters, back alleys -- and anywhere else they choose. Dog catchers from Buenos Aires to Bangalore use guns and gas to winnow the legions of strays that roam most big cities in the developing world. But don't ask a Thai to put a stray dog to sleep. Buddhism calls for compassion, and forbids killing any animal unnecessarily. But Buddhists also believe in reincarnation -- and many Thais see dogs as people who may have misbehaved in a past life. That is why they don't feel bad about turning unwanted pups into the street to fend for themselves. To cope with all the pooches, devout Buddhists in Bangkok are building "dog condos" run by monks, sterilizing strays and even trying to teach old dogs new tricks by pressing them into police work. Thailand's soi -- or alley -- dogs live in an unusual netherworld: About 30,000 unwanted dogs are dumped each year in Bangkok's back alleys. Many are tossed scraps from streetside food stalls, and left alone to breed and roam. Many Thais see the city's 150,000 homeless hounds as a benign urban presence akin to squirrels. Close contact with tolerant city dwellers has produced a particularly tame breed of stray. But the dogs frighten tourists and represent a health risk, officials say -- so the city council wants them gone. "My priority is to protect the public," says Sompop Chatraporn, the city's Veterinary Public Health director, who is also a Buddhist. "I put my religious beliefs behind my job." Municipal authorities used to quietly euthanize more than 200 dogs a day. But six years ago, the Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals set up shop in Bangkok and ran a campaign that argued the practice violated Buddhist principles. The city's governor adopted a pro-life dog policy to quell the public outcry. Now, officials neuter strays, then set them free. Bangkok spent about $825,000 caring for street dogs last year, neutering some 42,000 dogs. Recently, city fathers have hit on a new strategy: ship the dogs to the countryside. Bangkok's city council is now building a 30-hectare, $5 million kennel in a small northern town that will house as many as 8,000 dogs -- a fraction of the city's strays. "It would be much easier to do this job in any other Asian country," says Mr. Sompop with a sigh. This represents a difference in culture and cuisine. The Taiwanese, Chinese and Vietnamese are also Buddhist, but dog has long been eaten in those countries so there are fewer canine-rights crusaders there. Dogs have never been part of Thai cuisine. Private veterinarians have also came to the aid of the strays. Kiattisak Rojnirun set up a nonprofit foundation three years ago to fund his own neuter-and-release program. He fixes about 500 soi dogs a month, and treats hundreds more for skin diseases and fleas. He has even done eye surgeries on strays who are going blind. Dr. Kiattisak stages regular roundups near temples, where unwanted dogs are often dumped. Many people jettison pets here hoping that monks -- who, in accordance with Buddhist tradition, hit the streets with big brass bowls at dawn each day to beg for rice -- will share food scraps with the dogs. On a recent day, Dr. Kiattisak, dressed in green hospital scrubs, hauled a cage full of sooty dogs rounded up by monks into his clinic's operating room. A small brown mutt laid on a table waiting to be neutered. Seven heavily drugged dogs in recovery laid in a row, paw to shoulder, on the floor. After their operation, Dr. Kiattisak tattoos their ears and ties on a red cloth collar with a tag to show that he has given them a rabies shot. He keeps them a few weeks, to recuperate, then drives them back to the alley where they were caught. At night, Dr. Kiattisak, who runs a private animal hospital, lights incense and kneels in front of a small altar in his home. "I pray for the dogs, and the people who help me care for them," he says. He also prays for a big donor. His work with strays costs some $17,000 a month, with about a third of that coming from donations, he says. There are other rewards, though. "My work with dogs has made me more spiritual," Dr. Kiattisak says. He notes that one of his staff walked away from a recent head-on collision between his motorbike and a truck. "We've already got good karma coming back." Thailand's animal-loving king, Bhumbibol Adulyadej, adopted a stray of his own in 1998, to set an example for his subjects. In 2002, he wrote an 83-page book, "The Story of Tondaeng," complete with 129 photos (and one X-ray), extolling the virtues of his mixed-breed mutt. Thais rushed to buy the book, but not to adopt dogs. Last year, the deeply revered king changed tack. He asked the police and Department of Parks and Wildlife to employ some strays. Both departments promptly went out and picked up 50 soi dogs each. At a vast national park near the River Kwai, Somsak Monthathong, a forest ranger, demonstrated what his former stray, Boonrad, can do. The wiry black mutt has been trained to attack poachers. On command, the dog charges a volunteer, dressed in protective gear, and latches firmly onto his arm. Not all strays can be trained, says Mr. Somsak. His first recruit, a tall, reddish mutt named Mike Tyson, was one of many dog-school dropouts. Mike refused to do anything but lie in the sun, fighting whenever Mr. Somsak put him on a leash. "He was too independent," he says. "He'd been on his own too long." The Department of Parks and Wildlife plans to create a force of 300 former strays to help rangers protect parks from poachers. The police, meantime, have taught 25 former strays to detect drugs. Another 25 flunked their final sniffing exam after a 20-week training program. They are back in school. North of Bangkok, Payom Kalayano, a taciturn monk who draws thousands of devotees with his fiery sermons, is building what he calls a "dog condominium" for 500 mutts not lucky enough to find a job. He got the idea on a visit to Los Angeles, where he saw a plush dog hotel. "Buddhism teaches us to have mercy," he says. "We need to take care of all living creatures." Already, about 300 strays roam the leafy compound that surrounds his temple. More than 700 homeless people live here as well. Mr. Payom feeds them all with temple donations and the proceeds from the sale of his speeches, books and cassettes. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DhammaTimes/message/2555 31718 From: christine_forsyth Date: Thu Mar 25, 2004 4:01am Subject: Re: somanassa :-) :-) :-) :-) Dear Group, And one more link with lots of reports leading to further links, including one for the home for handicapped animals awaiting adoption. "They Call Us Strays .." http://www.nationmultimedia.com/specials/strays/index_jun29.php metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" < > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DhammaTimes/message/2555 31719 From: nidive Date: Thu Mar 25, 2004 4:55am Subject: Re: the self. . . how?/Jack Hi Jon, > > Though cetana is conditioned by many conditions, yet in no way is > > the function and power of cetana mitigated by way of being > > conditioned thus. > > Well this seems like a contradiction in terms. By definition, being > conditioned surely means being subject to 'outside' forces. Oh Jon, I am getting so confused. What is the difference between "being subject to 'outside' forces" and "exerting 'influence'"? I don't understand.?.?.? sign... Having seen for myself what is control without a controller, I am independent of the views of others. I am sharing with others that such a thing is possible. Strive, practise mindfulness immersed in the body without assumption of any self-identity. Such a thing is possible. Don't later fall into regret. Regards, Swee Boon 31720 From: Philip Date: Thu Mar 25, 2004 5:02am Subject: Re: Fever (and pain) Hello Christine, and all. I asked about the "fever" that we find in Ch VII -90 of the Dhammapada, and Chrstine provided the following info: Ch: > Hope this is of some help - from the PTS Dictionary: > http://dsal.uchicago.edu/dictionaries/pali/index.html > > "Parilaha (p. 435) [pari+daha of dah, cp. paridahati. On change of d > and Q see Geiger, P.Gr. s 423] burning, fever; fig. fever of passion, > consumption, distress, pain > I checked a bilingual version of the Dhammapada at tipitaka.net and found: Gataddhino1 Visokassa vippamuttassa sabbadhi sabbaganthappahinassa2 parilaho na vijjati. Verse 90: For him (an arahat) whose journey is ended, who is free from sorrow and from all (e.g. khandha aggregates), who has destroyed all fetters, there is no more distress. (end quote) This "parilaho" seems to be a kind of physical distress, judging from the following story, also found at Tipitaka.net: The Story of the Question Asked by Jivaka While residing at the mango-grove monastery of Jivaka, the Buddha uttered Verse (90) of this book, with reference to the question raised by Jivaka to the Buddha. Devadatta, on one occasion, tried to kill the Buddha by pushing a big rock from the peak of Gijjhakuta mountain (Vulture's Peak). The rock struck a ledge on the side of the mountain and a splinter struck the big toe of the Buddha. The Buddha was taken to the mango-grove monastery of Jivaka. There, Jivaka, the renowned physician, attended on the Buddha; he put some medicine on the toe of the Buddha and bandaged it. Jivaka then left to see another patient in town, but promised to return and remove the bandage in the evening. When Jivaka returned that night, the city-gates were already closed and he could not come to see the Buddha that night. He was very upset because if the bandage was not removed in time, the whole body would become very hot and the Buddha would be very ill. Just about this time, the Buddha asked Thera Ananda to remove the bandage from his big toe and found that the wound was completely healed. Jivaka came to the monastery early next morning and asked the Buddha whether he felt great pain and distress the previous night. The Buddha replied, "Jivaka! Ever since I attained Buddhahood there has been no pain and distress for me." Then the Buddha spoke in verse as follows: Verse 90: For him (an arahat) whose journey is ended, who is free from sorrow and from all (e.g. khandha aggregates), who has destroyed all fetters, there is no more distress. At the end of the discourse many attained Sotapatti Fruition. (end quote) So I see now that according to this story the "fever" is quite literally referring to physical fever and other physical distress rather than the literal notion of passions and emotions running wild. BTW, what is the origin of the Dhammapada stories? Are they part of the Pali canon or do they come from another source? I am very fond of the Dhammapada, so it is very interesting to find stories giving the source of each verse, but I would like to be sure that they are not fictitious. Metta, Phil > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Philip" wrote: > > > BTW, could anyone tell me more about the Pali word that is used > > for "fever? ((Ch. VII line 90 of the Dhammapada) > > > > Metta, > > Phil 31721 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Thu Mar 25, 2004 6:18am Subject: Re: [dsg] impermanence 2. conditions. Howard --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Jon - ... Paramattha dhammas are single, direct experiential conditions, Jon: As I'm sure you know, the term 'condition' is generally used for the Pali term 'paccaya', to specify the relationship between 2 dhammas. Are you saying that all dhammas are a paccaya (and nothing else)? This would be something I have not seen stated elsewhere. I'd be interested to know where the idea comes from. Howard: and such an event doesn't *have* an attribute or *satisfy* a condition; it *is*a condition. Jon: I presume by 'attribute' here you mean (or would include) characteristic (lakkhana). Whether or not it can be said that a dhamma can *have* a characteristic is no doubt an interesting question, but how useful I'm not sure. The main point to realise about characteristics, I suggest, is that they pertain to the dhammas that appear at this very moment, and so can potentially be known or verified as truly the characteristics of dhammas. There is such a thing as too much intellectualising over the teachings :-)). Howard: Hardness, for example, is not the attribute or property of something; it is an experiential condition. When we think of a table (a conventional object), the paramattha dhammas that pa~n~natti subsumes, including hardness, are thought of as attributes of the table. Jon: I don't quite follow. You say that dhammas do not have attributes, but the example you give here ('hardness is not an attribute of table') is not an example of dhammas *not having* attributes but of a dhamma *not being* an attribute of something else. So can you explain further what you mean by saying that dhammas do not have attributes? Howard: But there is no table, and the hardness is not a property of a (non-existent) table, but is a condition. Our tendency to think of paramattha dhammas (like hardness) as characteristics of conventional objects (like tables), carries over to our thinking about paramattha dhammas, themselves, and expecting them to have properties or satisfy conditions - but they do not, they are what they are, direct, elementary experiential conditions, themselves. Jon: No doubt there is still thinking with wrong view, but then that is why we are urged to reflect on the teachings (as opposed to intellectualise about them) and to relate what has been heard to the present moment. In this regard I am wondering what particular benefit there is to your description of dhammas as 'direct, elementary experiential conditions'. Do you feel this helps us to understand better the dhammas that are arising at the present moment? Jon 31722 From: abhidhammika Date: Thu Mar 25, 2004 6:53am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vipassanaa As A Synonym Of Anupassanaa In Satipa.t.thaana Suttam Dear Sarah, Nina and other Pali enthusiasts How are you? Sarah wrote: "The PTS English translation (Section 357 Vibha~nga) is very inadequate and confusing I found, so I won't add it as I'd intended." Does the PTS English translation contain the full list of synonyms of paññaa? On my Cha.t.thasangaayanaa Pali Tipi.taka CD ROM, Section 357, Vibha~nga, does not contain the full list. The full list in my post comes from Section 373, Satipa.t.thaana Sutta A.t.thakathaa, Mahaavaggo, Dighanikaaya A.t.thakathaa. As the commenatry mentioned that the list was from Vibha~nga, I included it as Section 357, Vibha~nga for the convenience of the readers. The following list is also the synonyms of paññaa in Section 16, Cittuppaada Ka.n.dam, Dhammasa~nga.nii (the First Book of Abhidhamma). 16. Katamam tasmim samaye paññindriyam hoti? Yaa tasmim samaye paññaa pajaananaa vicayo pavicayo dhammavicayo sallakkha.naa upalakkha.naa paccupalakkha.naa pa.n.diccam kosallam nepuññam vebhabyaa cintaa upaparikkhaa bhuurii medhaa pari.naayikaa vipassanaa sampajaññam patodo paññaa paññindriyam paññaabalam paññaasattham paññaapaasaado paññaa-aaloko paññaa-obhaaso paññaapajjoto paññaaratanam amoho dhammavicayo sammaadi.t.thi– idam tasmim samaye paññindriyam hoti. Although the list does not contain "Anupassanaa" as in the list in Vibha~nga, it does contain the terms of Satipa.t.thaana Suttam, namely, pajaananaa (from pajaanaati), and sampajaññam. You could perhaps check the PTS translation of Dhammasanga.nii at Section 16, Cittuppaada Ka.n.dam. See what happens in terms of adequacy and clarity! With regards, Suan --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: Hi Suan, --- abhidhammika wrote: > The quote you gave from the Pali Vibhanga (2nd text of Abhidhamma) was very helpful indeed. The PTS English translation is very inadequate and confusing I found, so I won't add it as I'd intended. I look forward to any further gems you have. Metta, Sarah ====== 31723 From: Date: Thu Mar 25, 2004 2:38am Subject: Re: [dsg] impermanence 2. conditions. Hi, Jon - I'm not at all confident that I can further clarify what Isaid here, but I'll try. In a message dated 3/25/04 9:21:25 AM Eastern Standard Time, jonoabb@y... writes: > Howard > > --- upasaka@a... wrote: >Hi, Jon - > ... > Paramattha dhammas are single, direct experiential > conditions, > > Jon: > As I'm sure you know, the term 'condition' is generally used for the > Pali term 'paccaya', to specify the relationship between 2 dhammas. > Are you saying that all dhammas are a paccaya (and nothing else)? > This would be something I have not seen stated elsewhere. I'd be > interested to know where the idea comes from. -------------------------------------------------- Howard: I'm using the word "condition" as a word of informal English, not a technical term. It simply mean an event or occurence or phenomenon. -------------------------------------------------- > > Howard: > and such an event doesn't *have* an attribute or *satisfy* a > condition; it *is*a condition. > > Jon: > I presume by 'attribute' here you mean (or would include) > characteristic (lakkhana). Whether or not it can be said that a > dhamma can *have* a characteristic is no doubt an interesting > question, but how useful I'm not sure. The main point to realise > about characteristics, I suggest, is that they pertain to the dhammas > that appear at this very moment, and so can potentially be known or > verified as truly the characteristics of dhammas. There is such a > thing as too much intellectualising over the teachings :-)). -------------------------------------------------- Howard: Jon, this *is* DSG, you know!!! ;-)) -------------------------------------------------- > > Howard: > Hardness, for example, is not the attribute or property of something; > it is an experiential condition. When we think of a table (a > conventional object), the paramattha dhammas that pa~n~natti > subsumes, including hardness, are thought of as attributes of the > table. > > Jon: > I don't quite follow. You say that dhammas do not have attributes, > but the example you give here ('hardness is not an attribute of > table') is not an example of dhammas *not having* attributes but of a > dhamma *not being* an attribute of something else. So can you > explain further what you mean by saying that dhammas do not have > attributes? ---------------------------------------------------- Howard: You are missing my point here, Jon. What people usually think of as having attributes are conventional entities like tables, trees, and rabbits. The elementary attributes these (actually nonexistent) entities supposedly have, such as hardness, motion, and warmth are paramattha dhammas. But there being no such entities, there are no attributes of them either. All there are are the paramattha dhammas and relations among them. The important point is that there *seem* to be such entities, and they *seem* to have attributes. People then naturally extrapolate from this erroneous thinking, and apply it to things that *do* exist, the paramattha dhammas. If tables have properties, they will think, then so must things like hardness. But that is not so. Hardness is hardness is hardness. There is no more to be said. ----------------------------------------------------- > > Howard: > But there is no table, and the hardness is not a property of a > (non-existent) table, but is a condition. Our tendency to think of > paramattha dhammas (like hardness) as characteristics of conventional > objects (like tables), carries over to our thinking about paramattha > dhammas, themselves, and expecting them to have properties or satisfy > conditions - but they do not, they are what they are, direct, > elementary experiential conditions, themselves. > > Jon: > No doubt there is still thinking with wrong view, but then that is > why we are urged to reflect on the teachings (as opposed to > intellectualise about them) and to relate what has been heard to the > present moment. In this regard I am wondering what particular > benefit there is to your description of dhammas as 'direct, > elementary experiential conditions'. Do you feel this helps us to > understand better the dhammas that are arising at the present moment? > ----------------------------------------------- Howard: I have no idea of what else they are! They are not imagined, but directly experienced, and they are simple, not complexes. ------------------------------------------------ > > Jon > =========================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 31724 From: Date: Thu Mar 25, 2004 3:28am Subject: Re: [dsg] Theravada Cosmology Matt, Here is my understanding. RE: Kamma and cosmology. Buddhism doesn't really address the universe as a whole (cosmology) but is concerned with the laws by which our mind works. One of these mental laws is the effect of kamma. RE: Coping with material dependency. The whole point of Buddhism is letting go. This involves letting go of our dpendencies on material goods, people, mental states such as anger, thoughts, etc. There is a disagreement on this list on how we learn to let go. My technique and those of many Buddhists is to practice letting go in our meditation each day. We practice letting go of expectations, of the pain in our knee, of thoughts. Jack 31725 From: Ken O Date: Thu Mar 25, 2004 8:46am Subject: Re: [dsg] Theravada Cosmology Hi Matt Let me confuse you further, the DSG NAG (non action group) method here is seeing all dhammas are anatta, anicca and dukkha and believing very moments are practising. We dont believe in doing special or deliberate actions, no special actions to do, except encourage you to read a lot, study a lot and listen a lot and at times disturb Sarah alot ;-). You may not wish to disturb me because be warned that I am the barking terrier here. We always in believing "with insight, seeing each present arisen state" Nothing special, except if you like Abdhidhamma we can recommend you tons of materials to spend your time now till Christmas ;-). Ken O 31726 From: Date: Thu Mar 25, 2004 4:00am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: the self. . . how?/Jack Sarah, Thanks. I think I understand your position now. Is this a good analogy? If I take you to a jazz concert, I might explain the "rules" of jazz, assuming you knew little about jazz. You would then react to jazz differently in the future. You wouldn't have to had done anything but your preceptions would change. I agree with you that being attached to striving or to anything including formal meditation is dangerous. There is the same danger, I think, in being attached to avoiding formal meditation and to studying the suttas. There is a parallel between your non-meditating practice and my meditating practice. I used to notice at times while I meditated that I was attached to clear mind as opposed to letting my mind wander in day dreams. I was attached to seeing what happens arising and passing away as opposed to going to sleep on my cushion. I think that phase was necessary for my practice. Now, I just sit and watch. If I daydream or become attached to a thought or emotion, I just bring my attention back to my breath automatically. Here is another parallel. I have run several marathons (26.2 miles). Training involves getting up very early in the morning and running for 1-2 hours. This is day after day in all kinds of weather. When I started the intensive training leading up to a race, I would have to force myself to get out the door. But, after a couple weeks, I just did it. No will power was involved. There might have been a point in your mental development when you were attached to studying the suttas. Now, it probably is automatic. Be well. Jack I’d like to say a little more on this point too because I think these are such good questions: --- Jackhat1@a... wrote: > There is one point I still don't understand about your position. In > your > system, how do you convert conceptual knowledge to experiential > knowledge? Am I > incorrect in saying that you would answer that repeatedly studying the > teachings (conceptual knowledge) results eventually in experiential > knowledge? And, > trying to see/prove the conceptual knowledge by experiencing it involves> trying > and shouldn't be attempted? 31727 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Thu Mar 25, 2004 9:54am Subject: Recognizing the Dhamma - 5. Contentment (§ 5.5.) § 5.5. On one occasion the Blessed One was staying near Alavi on a spread of leaves by a cattle track in a simsapa forest. Then Hatthaka of Alavi, out roaming & rambling for exercise, saw the Blessed One sitting on a spread of leaves by the cattle track in the simsapa forest. On seeing him, he went to him and, on arrival, having bowed down to him, sat to one side. As he was sitting there he said to the Blessed One, "Lord, I hope the Blessed One has slept in ease." "Yes, young man. I have slept in ease. Of those in the world who sleep in ease, I am one." "But cold, lord, is the winter night. The 'Between-the-Eights' is a time of snowfall. Hard is the ground trampled by cattle hooves. Thin is the spread of leaves. Sparse are the leaves in the trees. Thin are your ochre robes. And cold blows the Verambha wind. Yet still the Blessed One says, 'Yes, young man. I have slept in ease. Of those in the world who sleep in ease, I am one.'" "In that case, young man, I will question you in return. Answer as you see fit. Now, what do you think: Suppose a householder or householder's son has a house with a gabled roof, plastered inside & out, draft-free, with close-fitting door & windows shut against the wind. Inside he has a horse-hair couch spread with a long-fleeced coverlet, a white wool coverlet, an embroidered coverlet, a rug of kadali-deer hide, with a canopy above, & red cushions on either side. And there a lamp would be burning, and his four wives, with their many charms, would be attending to him. Would he sleep in ease, or not? Or how does this strike you?" "Yes, lord, he would sleep in ease. Of those in the world who sleep in ease, he would be one." "But what do you think, young man. Might there arise in that householder or householder's son any bodily fevers or fevers of mind born of passion so that -- burned with those passion-born fevers -- he would sleep miserably?" "Yes, lord." "As for those passion-born fevers -- burned with which the householder or householder's son would sleep miserably -- that passion has been abandoned by the Tathagata, its root destroyed, like an uprooted palm tree, deprived of the conditions of existence, not destined for future arising. Therefore he sleeps in ease. "Now, what do you think, young man. Might there arise in that householder or householder's son any bodily fevers or fevers of mind born of aversion so that -- burned with those aversion-born fevers -- he would sleep miserably?" "Yes, lord." "As for those aversion-born fevers -- burned with which the householder or householder's son would sleep miserably -- that aversion has been abandoned by the Tathagata, its root destroyed, like an uprooted palm tree, deprived of the conditions of existence, not destined for future arising. Therefore he sleeps in ease. "Now, what do you think, young man. Might there arise in that householder or householder's son any bodily fevers or fevers of mind born of delusion so that -- burned with those delusion-born fevers -- he would sleep miserably?" "Yes, lord." "As for those delusion-born fevers -- burned with which the householder or householder's son would sleep miserably -- that delusion has been abandoned by the Tathagata, its root destroyed, like an uprooted palm tree, deprived of the conditions of existence, not destined for future arising. Therefore he sleeps in ease. "Always, always, he sleeps in ease: the brahman totally unbound, who doesn't adhere to sensual pleasures, who's without acquisitions & cooled. Having cut all ties & subdued fear in the heart, calmed, he sleeps in ease, having reached peace of awareness." [AN III.34] http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/study/recognizing.html#contentment 31728 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Thu Mar 25, 2004 10:07am Subject: Kamma Hi all, I would like to start another study corner on kamma/action, using the study guide prepared by Ven. Thanissaro Bhikkhu. The contents of the study guide are as following: Introduction I. Non-Buddhist Theories II. Skillfulness III. Kamma A. Kamma & Causes B. Results C. Diversity & Cessation 1. Dark Kamma, Bright Kamma 2. Kamma Neither Dark nor Bright I will post the Introduction in my next message. Metta, Victor 31729 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Thu Mar 25, 2004 9:37am Subject: AN IV.235 - Ariyamagga Sutta Anguttara Nikaya IV.235 Ariyamagga Sutta The Noble Path Translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu. For free distribution only. --------------------------------------------------------------------- ----------- "Monks, these four types of kamma have been directly realized, verified, & made known by me. Which four? There is kamma that is dark with dark result. There is kamma that is bright with bright result. There is kamma that is dark & bright with dark & bright result. There is kamma that is neither dark nor bright with neither dark nor bright result, leading to the ending of kamma. "And what is kamma that is dark with dark result? There is the case where a certain person fabricates an injurious bodily fabrication, fabricates an injurious verbal fabrication, fabricates an injurious mental fabrication. Having fabricated an injurious bodily fabrication, having fabricated an injurious verbal fabrication, having fabricated an injurious mental fabrication, he rearises in an injurious world. On rearising in an injurious world, he is there touched by injurious contacts. Touched by injurious contacts, he experiences feelings that are exclusively painful, like those of the beings in hell. This is called kamma that is dark with dark result. "And what is kamma that is bright with bright result? There is the case where a certain person fabricates a non-injurious bodily fabrication ... a non-injurious verbal fabrication ... a non- injurious mental fabrication ... He rearises in a non-injurious world ... There he is touched by non-injurious contacts ... He experiences feelings that are exclusively pleasant, like those of the Ever-radiant Devas. This is called kamma that is bright with bright result. "And what is kamma that is dark & bright with dark & bright result? There is the case where a certain person fabricates a bodily fabrication that is injurious & non-injurious ... a verbal fabrication that is injurious & non-injurious ... a mental fabrication that is injurious & non-injurious ... He rearises in an injurious & non-injurious world ... There he is touched by injurious & non-injurious contacts ... He experiences injurious & non- injurious feelings, pleasure mingled with pain, like those of human beings, some devas, and some beings in the lower realms. This is called kamma that is dark & bright with dark & bright result. "And what is kamma that is neither dark nor bright with neither dark nor bright result, leading to the ending of kamma? Right view, right resolve, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration. This is called kamma that is neither dark nor bright with neither dark nor bright result, leading to the ending of kamma. "These, monks, are the four types of kamma directly realized, verified, & made known by me." --------------------------------------------------------------------- ----------- See also: MN 57; "Kamma and the Ending of Kamma" in The Wings to Awakening (Thanissaro Bhikkhu) --------------------------------------------------------------------- ----------- Revised: Sun 19-Oct-2003 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an04-235.html 31730 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Mar 25, 2004 10:31am Subject: Vis. Tiika 69, impermanence. Vis. Tiika 69, impermanence. Vis, 69. 23. 'Impermanence of matter' has the characteristic of complete breaking up. Its function is to make material instances subside. It is manifested as destruction and fall (cf. Dhs. 645). Its proximate cause is matter that is completely breaking up. Vis. Pali: 69. paribhedalakkha.naa ruupassa aniccataa, sa.msiidanarasaa, khayavayapaccupa.t.thaanaa, paribhijjamaanaruupapada.t.thaanaa. Tiika: Parito sabbaso ²bhijjanan²ti lakkhitabbaati paribhedalakkha.naa. The characteristic of complete breaking up should be defined as being destroyed absolutely and in every respect *. Nicca.m naama dhuva.m, ruupa.m pana kha.nabha"ngitaaya yena bha"ngena na niccanti anicca.m, so aniccassa bhaavoti aniccataa. What is lasting is called permanent, but materiality at the moment of its falling away is not lasting because of its dissolution, and thus it is impermanent, and that state of instability is impermanence. Saa pana yasmaa .thitippatta.m ruupa.m vinaasabhaavena sa.msiidantii viya hotiiti vutta.m ³sa.msiidanarasaa²ti. He said that its function is to make (material instances) subside, since this (impermanence) causes the materiality that has reached (the moments of) presence ** as it were to subside. Yasmaa ca saa ruupadhammaana.m bha"ngabhaavato khayavayaakaareneva gayhati, tasmaa vutta.m ³khayavayapaccupa.t.thaanaa²ti. And since this (impermanence) because of the state of dissolution of material phenomena should be taken by way of destruction and fall, he said that it is manifested as destruction and fall. *** English: The characteristic of complete breaking up should be defined as being destroyed absolutely and in every respect *. What is lasting is called permanent, but materiality at the moment of its falling away is not lasting because of its dissolution, and thus it is impermanent, and that state of instability is impermanence. He said that its function is to make (material instances) subside, since this (impermanence) causes the materiality that has reached (the moments of) presence** as it were to subside. And since this (impermanence) because of the state of dissolution of material phenomena should be taken by way of destruction and fall, he said that it is manifested as destruction and fall. ______ * The word meaning is partly lost in the translation. The prefix pari of paribheda, breaking up, reinforces the word. The words parito, completely and sabbaso, in every respect, are added. ** Origination, upacaya rúpa, and continuity, santati rúpa, are characteristics indicating the moments rúpa has arisen but not yet fallen away, whereas decay, jaratå rúpa, indicates the moment close to its falling away and impermanence, aniccatå rúpa, the moment of its falling away. These moments are extremely short. Thus, as soon as rupa is present it is already time for its falling away. Remark: The short definitions in the Vis. can be easily overlooked, and therefore I am glad to see the Tiika text which emphasizes more the facts of decay and impermanence occurring each moment. All rupas of the body are decaying now and they are on the way to complete destruction. This is dukkha and a grim reminder of being in the cycle of birth and death. ***** Nina. 31731 From: Matt Reichel Date: Thu Mar 25, 2004 2:46pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Theravada Cosmology Hi Thanks for all the great responses, they helped a ton! I wrote down a bunch to keep in mind. Back to city life though, it was brought up that the material dependences and desires from living in the city are relatively the same (in existence) in the countryside. To a point it is true, the material presence cannot be avoided, but isn't "the city" the paragon and quintessence of avariciousness? But, yet again, I guess it depends on where one is happier living, and can make the best of their beliefs anywhere. Has anybody here gone to any meditation caves? The idea of just being able to withdraw from the society that we know and naturally find ourselves and clear out minds in some of those caves sounds amazing to me. "The bliss of lusts and heaven-world equal not one sixteenth of the bliss of craving's ending." UDAANA 2.2 31732 From: Ken O Date: Thu Mar 25, 2004 8:32am Subject: Suffering - terms Hi Nina, Sarah and Kom I was about to post this in another list then I realise that there are a few technicalities that I do not understand, para 448 Just like to share this definition of Dukkha from Dispeller of Delusion para 446 446. .............. Herein this is the list {maatikaa) for the purpose of expounding the Noble truth of suffering; for this suffering is manifold and of various kinds, that is to say ; the suffering as suffering, the suffering in change, the suffering in formations, concealed suffering, exposed suffering, figurative suffering (pariyaaya), literal suffering. 447. Herein bodily and mental painful feeling are called "suffering as suffering" because of their individual essence, because of their name and because of painfulness. [Bodily and mental] pleasant feeling are called "suffering in change" because of being the cause of the arising of pain through their change. Indifferent feeling and the remaining formations of the three planes are called “suffering in formations” because of being oppressed by rise and fall. But there is likewise oppression even in the paths and fruition, therefore these states should be understood to be called “suffering of the formations”, by their being included in the Truth of Suffering. 448. Such bodily and mental afflictions as earache, toothache, fever born of lust, fever born of hate, etc are called “concealed suffering” because they can only be known by questioning, and because the attack is not openly evident: they are also called “unevident suffering”. Afflictions produced by the 32 tortures and so on is called “exposed suffering”. Except for suffering as suffering, the rest come down in the Dukkhasaccavibha.nga (Vbh 99). Also all beginning birth are called “figurative suffering” because they are the basis of one or another kind of suffering, but it is “suffering as suffering” that is called “literal suffering” Two questions In para 448, why do we called earache etc as concealed suffering and why they can only be known by questioning - is it because it is slowly attacking our body and we only known after its full symptoms manifested since paramthas dhammas always would have arise and fall many zillions times before they become a manifestation. Are the 32 tortures - talking about the 32 parts which is usually used as the basis for describing the body. Ken O 31733 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Thu Mar 25, 2004 4:23pm Subject: Kamma - Introduction Introduction The doctrine of kamma (karma -- action) is one of the Buddha's central teachings. There is a modern myth that he simply picked up his ideas on kamma from the worldview prevalent in his day, and that they aren't really integral to his message. Nothing could be further from the truth. Early Buddhists often cited the Buddha's teaching on kamma as one of the prime teachings that set him apart from his contemporaries, and a study of his teachings on kamma will show that they underlie everything else he taught. The following readings from the Pali Canon are designed to give an overview of the Buddha's teachings on kamma. Before tackling them, you might want to read a few introductory articles on the topic, including the following ones available on Access to Insight: "Karma," "A Refuge in Skillful Action" (contained in the book, Refuge), and "Samsara Divided by Zero." The readings here are divided into three main sections: I. Non-Buddhist theories II. Skillfulness III. Kamma The first section provides background for the Buddhist teachings on kamma by showing how the early Buddhists viewed the way other contemporary schools of thought explained kamma. The second section focuses on the Buddha's basic observation that underlay his teachings on kamma: that it is possible to develop a skill. This simple fact carries a number of important implications for any teaching on action. (1) Actions give results, and their results follow a discernible pattern. Otherwise, it would not be possible to develop a skill. (2) Some results are more desirable than others. Otherwise, there would be no point in developing a skill. (3) By observing one's mistakes one may learn from them and use that knowledge to act more skillfully in the future. This means that the mind is a crucial agent in determining actions and their results, and there is an opening for feedback to influence the process of action. It is thus a non-linear process, and there is room for free will. (4) Results can be observed while one is acting, as well as after the action is done. This means that actions have both immediate results and long-term results, a fact that makes the non-linear process very complex. The passages in the second section discuss how these observations apply in practice. §5 discusses how the Buddha applied the principle of skillfulness to reach Awakening. §7 shows how to use it to decide what teachings are valid. §8 discusses how to apply it to all of one's actions. The remaining passages are self-explanatory. The third section, on kamma, consists of passages that build a larger theory of action based on these observations. These passages are divided into three sub-sections, based on a classification given in §14: A. Kamma & Causes B. Results C. Diversity & Cessation Sub-section A is the most theoretical part of this study guide. It covers the Buddha's basic theory of causation (§15) and treats the place of intention -- the factor that the Buddha identified as the essence of kamma -- in the context of the Buddha's analysis of physical and mental phenomena (name-&-form). In the light of the Buddha's observation in §5 that views influence kamma (views come under attention in the analysis of "name"), this sub-section concludes with two levels of right view: mundane right view, which informs the sort of good kamma that brings about happy results within the process of death and rebirth; and transcendent right view, which informs the sort of kamma that brings freedom from that process. Sub-section B focuses on the issue of how long it takes for the results of kamma to appear, and gives particular attention to some of the complexities that arise from the fact that kamma is non- linear. Sometimes the results of an action don't appear immediately, or even in the immediate next life. §27 discusses the role that the mind plays in determining how the results of kamma are experienced, and §28 treats the intelligent way to use the Buddha's teachings on kamma when reflecting on one's own past bad kamma so as to train oneself in the proper frame of mind. Sub-section C is divided into two further sub-sections, based on a classification in §29: 1. Dark Kamma, Bright Kamma 2. Kamma Neither Dark nor Bright The first of these two sub-sections discusses types of actions and mental qualities that lead to good or bad results within the process of rebirth and death. In some passages the emphasis is on results in the present life; in others, on results in future lives. The second of these two sub-sections discusses the type of kamma -- and the right views underlying that kamma -- leading to freedom: the cessation of kamma, the realization of nibbana. The concluding passages make the point that transcendent right view contains the seeds for its own transcendence: once it has done its duty in cutting away other attachments, it creates the momentum so that the mind can then abandon attachment to views of any sort, right or wrong, mundane or transcendent. That is how true freedom is gained. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/study/kamma.html#intro 31734 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Thu Mar 25, 2004 4:31pm Subject: Recognizing the Dhamma - 5. Contentment (§ 5.6.) § 5.6. I have heard that on one occasion the Blessed One was staying at Anupiya in the Mango Orchard. Now at that time, Ven. Bhaddiya Kaligodha, on going to a forest, to the foot of a tree, or to an empty dwelling, would repeatedly exclaim, "What bliss! What bliss!" A large number of monks heard Ven. Bhaddiya Kaligodha, on going to a forest, to the foot of a tree, or to an empty dwelling, repeatedly exclaim, "What bliss! What bliss!" and on hearing him, the thought occurred to them, "There's no doubt but that Ven. Bhaddiya Kaligodha doesn't enjoy leading the holy life, for when he was a householder he knew the bliss of kingship, so that now, on recollecting that, he is repeatedly exclaiming, 'What bliss! What bliss!'" They went to the Blessed One and, on arrival, having bowed down to him, sat to one side. As they were sitting there, they told him: "Ven. Bhaddiya Kaligodha, lord, on going to a forest, to the foot of a tree, or to an empty dwelling, repeatedly exclaims, 'What bliss! What bliss!' There's no doubt but that Ven. Bhaddiya Kaligodha doesn't enjoy leading the holy life, for when he was a householder he knew the bliss of kingship, so that now, on recollecting that, he is repeatedly exclaiming, 'What bliss! What bliss!'" Then the Blessed One told a certain monk, "Come, monk. In my name, call Bhaddiya, saying, 'The Teacher calls you, my friend.'" "As you say, lord," the monk answered and, having gone to Ven. Bhaddiya, on arrival he said, "The Teacher calls you, my friend." "As you say, my friend," Ven. Bhaddiya replied. Then he went to the Blessed One and, on arrival, having bowed down to him, sat to one side. As he was sitting there, the Blessed One said to him, "Is it true, Bhaddiya that, on going to a forest, to the foot of a tree, or to an empty dwelling, you repeatedly exclaim, 'What bliss! What bliss!'?" "Yes, lord." "What meaning do you have in mind that you repeatedly exclaim, 'What bliss! What bliss!'?" "Before, when I was a householder, maintaining the bliss of kingship, I had guards posted within and without the royal apartments, within and without the city, within and without the countryside. But even though I was thus guarded, thus protected, I dwelled in fear -- agitated, distrustful, and afraid. But now, on going alone to a forest, to the foot of a tree, or to an empty dwelling, I dwell without fear, unagitated, confident, and unafraid - - unconcerned, unruffled, my wants satisfied, with my mind like a wild deer. This is the meaning I have in mind that I repeatedly exclaim, 'What bliss! What bliss!'" Then, on realizing the significance of that, the Blessed One on that occasion exclaimed: In whom there exists no provocation, for whom becoming & non-becoming are overcome, he is one -- beyond fear, blissful, without grief, whom the devas can't see. [Ud II.10] http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/study/recognizing.html#contentment 31735 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Thu Mar 25, 2004 4:40pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: the self. . . how?/Jack Swee Boon --- nidive wrote: > Hi Jon, ... Oh Jon, I am getting so confused. What is the difference between "being subject to 'outside' forces" and "exerting 'influence'"? Jon: Now I'm confused too ;-)) But let me try. To say that dhammas are conditioned (i.e., are subject to 'outside forces') is one thing; to say that it is possible to exert influence over dhammas is quite another. The 'outside forces' that operate as conditions have their impact by virtue of certain rules of nature (niyaama). The mental factor of intention is itself one of these conditioning factors, but it acts as conditioning factor only in certain ways, some of them rather indirect, and always according to the laws of nature. It is not a 'wild card'. Swee Boon: Having seen for myself what is control without a controller, I am independent of the views of others. I am sharing with others that such a thing is possible. Jon: I have no idea what 'control' you may be referring to, but as I said in my last post, there are plenty of references to control, mastery etc in the sutta pitaka. So in a relative sense there can be control. But in an absolute sense, because of the conditioned nature of dhammas, I don't think it can be said that dhammas are subject to control. Swee Boon: Strive, practise mindfulness immersed in the body without assumption of any self-identity. Such a thing is possible. Don't later fall into regret. Jon: Certainly striving and mindfulness are possible. As far as striving is concerned, this can be either kusala or akusala and we of course are interested only in the kusala kind. Likewise by mindfulness we are referring to a particular form of kusala and not just anything that could loosely be called 'mindfulness/awareness'. It is important that we understand clearly the difference in practice between the kusala and the akusala, the right and wrong forms, because of our 'practice' is not the former then it will be the latter and we are accumulating all the wrong kinds of latent tendencies. So in this sense also we would not wish to later fall into regret. Hoping i haven't confused things further, Jon 31736 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Thu Mar 25, 2004 4:42pm Subject: Re: Recognizing the Dhamma - 5. Contentment (§ 5.6.) Hi all, I wonder in what sense Ven. Bhaddiya Kaligodha is content... Metta, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "yu_zhonghao" wrote: > § 5.6. [snip] > > "What meaning do you have in mind that you repeatedly exclaim, 'What > bliss! What bliss!'?" > > "Before, when I was a householder, maintaining the bliss of > kingship, I had guards posted within and without the royal > apartments, within and without the city, within and without the > countryside. But even though I was thus guarded, thus protected, I > dwelled in fear -- agitated, distrustful, and afraid. But now, on > going alone to a forest, to the foot of a tree, or to an empty > dwelling, I dwell without fear, unagitated, confident, and unafraid - > - unconcerned, unruffled, my wants satisfied, with my mind like a > wild deer. This is the meaning I have in mind that I repeatedly > exclaim, 'What bliss! What bliss!'" > > Then, on realizing the significance of that, the Blessed One on that > occasion exclaimed: > > > In whom there exists > no provocation, > for whom becoming & non-becoming > are overcome, > he is one -- beyond fear, > blissful, > without grief, > whom the devas can't see. > > [Ud II.10] > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/study/recognizing.html#contentment 31737 From: Jeffrey Brooks Date: Thu Mar 25, 2004 9:05am Subject: Re: [dsg] There is no absorption (jhana) without wisdom (panna), No wisdom without absorption. There is no absorption (jhana) without wisdom (panna), No wisdom without absorption. Hello Suan, it is a beautiful morning here. I have never felt more well, happy and fulfilled in my life. Thank-you for asking. I hope you are feeling equally well. It seems that you have called me out for a dual, of satisfaction at dawn though. It is after my morning meditation and dawn here, so I will join you at the OK coral before my morning smoothy. I have been avoiding this conversation, even though I of course see it as a valiant refutation of my premise that insight (vipassana) was never articulated by the Buddha as a meditation technique, or intellectual or cognitive process, as you seem to be indicating here. I have found the three vehicles of Buddhism have there own agendas that they all claim are the exclusive teachings of the Buddha. However when we examine the discourses of the Buddha, as revealed in the Nikayas we do not see the Buddha using the word 'Boddhisatva' to refer to a practice path in which one rejects enlightenment for the sake off all others. I believe many of you on this list will agree with me that to the historic Buddha, a 'Boddhisatva' was one who was a seeker for enlightenment, not a realizer. In Vajrayana they teach 'Bodhichitta' as though the Buddha uttered that word in every sentence, and yet there is not one single reference to the word in the discourses of the Buddha. It could be argued that the Brahma Viharas, which the Buddha did frequently speak on, are simply 'Bodhichitta,' however he did not harp on the Brahma Viharas like the Vajrayanists want us to think he did, and it was never in the sense of merit greed that Mahayanists tend to place it in. Now, when it comes to Theravadan Buddhism they harp on insight (vipassana) as though it was some pure golden practice strategy that the historic Buddha invented and taught. However when we examine the record of the Discourses of the Buddha we find that the word 'vipassana' was never used a single time to either refer to a practice strategy or a cognitive process, as you Suan here, seem to be arguing. In fact insight seems to be a rather miner concept in the overall teaching strategy of the historic Buddha. Suan's conflating of Vipassana with Satipa.t.thana is what is called the flaw in logic "reaching," in rhetoric and debate. Reaching means that the debater does not have a logically cohesive and truthful argument from which to make his or her point, so they jump over some gap of logic to continue their point. In this argument Suan is resorting to appropriating the concepts and terminology of satipatthana for his purposes to "prove" his point that insight (vipassana) is a practice strategy or a cognitive process. However, this point is fatally flawed. Insight (vipassana) is a subjective experience, a fruit of the attainment of absorption, therefore one can never arrive at insight unless one is in absorption (jhana). In conclusion his premise is hopelessly flawed. The historic Buddha never used the word vipassana in conjunction with a meditation technique or cognitive process. To support one's belief that the Buddha did refer to vipassana as a meditation technique or cognitive process, all one need do is find a canonical reference to support such a belief instead of resorting to posturing and wordy discourses or the appropriation of terms like mindfulness (sati) and wisdom (panna) to support this rather flimsy claim. Just as a side point of reference of perspective. The word 'insight' (vipassana) only occurs in the glossaries 12 times in the three published volumes of the discourses of the Buddha (Majjhima, Digha and Samyutta Nikayas). Whereas absorption (jhana) occurs in the glossaries of these three Nikayas 33 times. Just in glossary references alone, it seems clear to me absorption (jhana) had almost three times the importance to the historic Buddha than did insight (vipassana). So, why is there a disproportionate emphasis on insight within Theravadan Buddhism? Insight (vipassana) (1x) DN: 14.21, n.273 (6x) MN: 6.3, 32.5, 43.14, 73.18, 77.29, 151.19 (5x) SN: 1253, 1324, 1373, 1374, 1558 Absorptions (jhanas) (6x) DN 22, 42, 1.3.21f., n.79, n.50, n.57, n.76f., 2.75ff., 4.33, n.168, 9.10ff., 16.6.8f., 17.2.3, n.583, n.611, 26.28, 29.24, 33.3.3(6), n.1118, n.1127, n.1143 (9x) MN: 6.9, 36.31, 45.7, 53.18, 59.7, 66.21, 107.10, 108.27, 139.9 (18x) SN: 143,146,147,148, 251-52, 671-72, 713, 1015-16, 1271-72, 1276-77, 1284-85, 1302-5, 1670, 1672, 1684-85, 1760, 1762-64, 1771 It would be very interesting for someone with the Pali CD of the Tipitaka to simply check on the occurrences of key Pali terms, such as jhana, vipassana, Bodhichitta, Bodhisattva, sukha, piiti etc. Just by simply knowing the frequency of occurrence of these key terms, I believe we can come to a simple conclusion of what was of central importance to the historic Buddha. Dhammapada Verse 372 Natthi jhaanam apan~n~assa, pan~n~aa natthi ajhaayato, Yamhi jhaanan~ ca pan~n~an~ ca sa ve nibbaanasantike. "There is no absorption (jhana) without wisdom (panna), No wisdom without absorption. One who is close to emancipation (nibbana/nirvana) has both wisdom and absorption." Kindest regards, Jeff Brooks --------------------- Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2004 14:18:27 -0000 From: "abhidhammika" Subject: Satipa.t.thana Suttam As Vipassanaa Suttam : To Jeffery Dear Jeff How are you? I will write a seprate reply to your thread (the issue of rewriting). For now, please read my reply to Herman, Howard and Stephen. You might enjoy it. Suan __________ _____________ ______ Dear Dhamma friends How are you? The following contains a refutation of Jeffery Brooks's wrong views and misrepresentation of Satapa.t.thaana Suttam. 31738 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Thu Mar 25, 2004 10:10am Subject: Kamma - Introduction Introduction The doctrine of kamma (karma -- action) is one of the Buddha's central teachings. There is a modern myth that he simply picked up his ideas on kamma from the worldview prevalent in his day, and that they aren't really integral to his message. Nothing could be further from the truth. Early Buddhists often cited the Buddha's teaching on kamma as one of the prime teachings that set him apart from his contemporaries, and a study of his teachings on kamma will show that they underlie everything else he taught. The following readings from the Pali Canon are designed to give an overview of the Buddha's teachings on kamma. Before tackling them, you might want to read a few introductory articles on the topic, including the following ones available on Access to Insight: "Karma," "A Refuge in Skillful Action" (contained in the book, Refuge), and "Samsara Divided by Zero." The readings here are divided into three main sections: I. Non-Buddhist theories II. Skillfulness III. Kamma The first section provides background for the Buddhist teachings on kamma by showing how the early Buddhists viewed the way other contemporary schools of thought explained kamma. The second section focuses on the Buddha's basic observation that underlay his teachings on kamma: that it is possible to develop a skill. This simple fact carries a number of important implications for any teaching on action. (1) Actions give results, and their results follow a discernible pattern. Otherwise, it would not be possible to develop a skill. (2) Some results are more desirable than others. Otherwise, there would be no point in developing a skill. (3) By observing one's mistakes one may learn from them and use that knowledge to act more skillfully in the future. This means that the mind is a crucial agent in determining actions and their results, and there is an opening for feedback to influence the process of action. It is thus a non-linear process, and there is room for free will. (4) Results can be observed while one is acting, as well as after the action is done. This means that actions have both immediate results and long-term results, a fact that makes the non-linear process very complex. The passages in the second section discuss how these observations apply in practice. §5 discusses how the Buddha applied the principle of skillfulness to reach Awakening. §7 shows how to use it to decide what teachings are valid. §8 discusses how to apply it to all of one's actions. The remaining passages are self-explanatory. The third section, on kamma, consists of passages that build a larger theory of action based on these observations. These passages are divided into three sub-sections, based on a classification given in §14: A. Kamma & Causes B. Results C. Diversity & Cessation Sub-section A is the most theoretical part of this study guide. It covers the Buddha's basic theory of causation (§15) and treats the place of intention -- the factor that the Buddha identified as the essence of kamma -- in the context of the Buddha's analysis of physical and mental phenomena (name-&-form). In the light of the Buddha's observation in §5 that views influence kamma (views come under attention in the analysis of "name"), this sub-section concludes with two levels of right view: mundane right view, which informs the sort of good kamma that brings about happy results within the process of death and rebirth; and transcendent right view, which informs the sort of kamma that brings freedom from that process. Sub-section B focuses on the issue of how long it takes for the results of kamma to appear, and gives particular attention to some of the complexities that arise from the fact that kamma is non- linear. Sometimes the results of an action don't appear immediately, or even in the immediate next life. §27 discusses the role that the mind plays in determining how the results of kamma are experienced, and §28 treats the intelligent way to use the Buddha's teachings on kamma when reflecting on one's own past bad kamma so as to train oneself in the proper frame of mind. Sub-section C is divided into two further sub-sections, based on a classification in §29: 1. Dark Kamma, Bright Kamma 2. Kamma Neither Dark nor Bright The first of these two sub-sections discusses types of actions and mental qualities that lead to good or bad results within the process of rebirth and death. In some passages the emphasis is on results in the present life; in others, on results in future lives. The second of these two sub-sections discusses the type of kamma -- and the right views underlying that kamma -- leading to freedom: the cessation of kamma, the realization of nibbana. The concluding passages make the point that transcendent right view contains the seeds for its own transcendence: once it has done its duty in cutting away other attachments, it creates the momentum so that the mind can then abandon attachment to views of any sort, right or wrong, mundane or transcendent. That is how true freedom is gained. 31739 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Thu Mar 25, 2004 6:19pm Subject: Re: There is no absorption (jhana) without wisdom (panna), No wisdom without absorption. Hi Jeff, I would also recommend the following article by Ven. Thanissaro Bhikkhu: One Tool Among Many The Place of Vipassana in Buddhist Practice http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/modern/thanissaro/onetool.html Metta, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jeffrey Brooks wrote: [snip] > > Dhammapada Verse 372 > > Natthi jhaanam apan~n~assa, pan~n~aa natthi ajhaayato, > Yamhi jhaanan~ ca pan~n~an~ ca sa ve nibbaanasantike. > > "There is no absorption (jhana) without wisdom > (panna), > No wisdom without absorption. > One who is close to emancipation (nibbana/nirvana) > has both wisdom and absorption." > > Kindest regards, > > Jeff Brooks 31740 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Mar 25, 2004 9:17pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Fwd: Paticcasamupada Hi Howard, op 25-03-2004 07:01 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: ============================ > On the other hand, there is the following from the Sammaditthi Sutta: > _______________________________ .... The way leading to the cessation of > ignorance is just this Noble Eightfold Path; that is, right view... right > concentration. 67. "When a noble disciple has thus understood ignorance, the > origin of > ignorance, the cessation of ignorance, and the way leading to the cessation of > ignorance... he here and now makes an end of suffering. In that way too a > noble > disciple is one of right view... and has arrived at this true Dhamma." > _______________________________ H: So, ignorance is not always complete and all-encompassing. If it were, > there would be no escaping from it. But one's ignorance can come to be known, > and in so knowing it, it can disappear at that very moment, or at least the > movement towards its eventual demise can begin. N:thank you for the passage with your comments, I appreciate this very much. Eznir wrote: The uninstructed person is someone who has not heard Dhamma. That makes all the difference! Nina. 31741 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Mar 25, 2004 9:17pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Small reminders Dear Azita, op 25-03-2004 11:38 schreef gazita2002 op gazita2002@y...: > The sound that is heard now does not hear anything. > > We overlook the obvious all the time, especially Nama, the > experience which makes it possible to experience colour right now. > > One's understanding has to learn to know the obvious, not to > overlook what is staring one in the face. N: Thank you very much. Visible object is staring at me now! Seeing is so obvious, but we forget. Nina. 31742 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Mar 25, 2004 9:17pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Theravada Cosmology Hi Larry and Matt, Welcome to this group, Mat. Larry, may I just make one distinction. See below. op 25-03-2004 00:49 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > > What are the 4 planes of existence? How does one come to be reborn into > each? N: There are two types of plane, bhumi. Planes of citta and planes of existence. As to planes of citta, there are four: sensesphere, rupajhanaplane, arupajhana plane and lokuttara plane. These planes indicate the type of object citta experiences, they are not worlds where one is born. The cittas arising for us in daily life experience sense objects, these cittas are called kamaavacara cittas, cittas frequenting sense objects (avacara is frequenting). The others are jhanacittas and lokuttara cittas. Planes of existence: there are thirtyone planes: woeful planes and happy planes. There are lively descriptions of deva worlds. These are conventional terms indicating the pleasant objects experienced, due to their kusala kamma. Larry, I like your questions: L:What are the kamma resultant consciousnesses and kamma initiating > consciousnesses in the 3 mundane planes? What are the kamma resultant > consciousnesses and the functional volitional consciousnesses in the > supramundane plane? Nina. 31743 From: Sarah Date: Thu Mar 25, 2004 10:51pm Subject: Re: [dsg] BB4 - Space Dear Friends, I sent a few brief comments back to Bhikkhu Bodhi in response to his on this subject and I'll pass on any further feedback if he gives any. I'd also be glad of any other comments on my logic or detail from any commentaries that Suan, Nina or anyone may have. (My comments are rather cryptic, but I'm happy to elaborate on them) ***** > BB: > On the status of the space element: I tried to do > some research on this, but > could not come up with a conclusive answer. You may > be correct. I had always > assumed that the defining mark of a > paramattha-dhamma according to the > Theravada Abhidhamma system is sabhAvato vijjamAna > ("existing through > intrinsic nature"), but your challenge makes me > think this may not be > correct. ..... S: I’d like to make a few comments with respect if I may and perhaps I can put them in point form. I’m not sure if any logic will be apparent and please ignore it if you’d prefer or are busy. Of course comments on any errors are most welcome. 1.CMA, 1#2 Fourfold paramattha-dhammas (inc *all* rupas as I understand) 2. Summary & Exposition (Wijeratne & Gethin transl)p7 explanation to above defines rupas here as ‘the aggregate of materiality differentiated as the elements and dependent [materialities] (upaadaruupa) 3. CMA,V1#5 28 Rupas inc. anipphannaruupa inc in upaadaruupa 4. CMA V1, 2, guide 2 Upaadaaya ruupa ‘are material phenomena derived from, or dependent upon, the four great essentials. these are twenty-four in number.’ 5. Exposition p230 refers to conditioned nature etc of all rupas. 6. Vism 1, n14 from Pm 40-41 “ ‘But these are simply modes of interpreting (sannivesaakaara) the kinds of materiality derived from the (four) primaries that are interpreted (sannivi.t.tha) in such and such wise; for apart from that there is in the ultimate sense [paramattho] no such thing as a hand and so on’.” I assume ‘that’ refers to the four primaries and derived rupas here. 7. Paramattha dhammas refer to the same realities as the khandhas + nibbana. Vism X1V,72 under ‘the Aggregates’ “So this derived matter of twenty-four sorts and the aforesaid matter of the primary elements, which is of four sorts, together amount to twenty-eight sorts, neither more nor less. And all that [matter of twenty-eight sorts] is of one kind as ‘not root-cause, root-causeless, dissociated from root-cause, with conditions, mundane, subject to cankers’ (Dhs#5840, and so on.” 8. As I understand, space (akaasaa ruupa) has a characteristic which can be known and is included in the khandhas, the aayatanas and the dhaatus - all of which consist of paramattha dhammas only. ...... BB: >It would not be enough, though, merely to > bring forth rational > arguments, as Nina does; one would have to quote > texts that establish that > space is paramattha without being sabhAvato > vijjamAna. .... S: Going back to the first two points above, surely here in the prologue to CMA and its commentary, paramattha is clearly defined in terms of all cittas, cetasikas, rupas and nibbana without exceptions and as elaborated on in the main text? ..... BB: >Such distinctions are > unlikely to be made even in the Abhidhamma > commentaries (though I might be > wrong). One would have to go down to texts of a > still more technical nature, > like the Abhidhamma tikas (sub-commentaries), and it > is difficult to find > anyone who knows these well. .... S: This is where I’m very grateful for those translations (like the excellent one of Sammohavinodanii) that are available. I checked the Kathavatthu and comy for more detail, esp in the first chapter where it discusses how a person is not a paramattha dhamma in the way that khandhas, ayatanas, dhatus etc are. But only some examples are given of each, so it may not satisfy you. ..... BB: >Here I > don't have access to > these texts, and the headache makes delving into > such abstruse but > interesting questions difficult. ..... S: Sometimes abstruse questions lead to others too! Please take care of your headaches. < ***** Metta, Sarah ====== 31744 From: Sarah Date: Thu Mar 25, 2004 11:15pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vipassanaa As A Synonym Of Anupassanaa In Satipa.t.thaana Suttam Dear Suan, --- abhidhammika wrote: > > Does the PTS English translation contain the full list of synonyms of > paññaa? On my Cha.t.thasangaayanaa Pali Tipi.taka CD ROM, Section > 357, Vibha~nga, does not contain the full list. .... Thank you for explaining this. Now I understand and retract my earlier comments. This is why I was so confused because, just as you say, section 357 doesn’t include the full list. However, one is directed in the middle of the list to section 525 which has a very exhaustive list under Awareness. You might like to check this. (sorry, too busy to type it out now). Perhaps if you check the Pali for this, I can then add the English below it if it would be useful. ..... > The full list in my post comes from Section 373, Satipa.t.thaana > Sutta A.t.thakathaa, Mahaavaggo, Dighanikaaya A.t.thakathaa. > > As the commenatry mentioned that the list was from Vibha~nga, I > included it as Section 357, Vibha~nga for the convenience of the > readers. .... I think they all cross-reference. Btw, the PTS Vibhanga transl comes from the Burmese Cha.t.thasa’ngiiti ed accord to a note at the front. Unfortunately no Pali words are included so one really needs the Pali handy as well. ... > The following list is also the synonyms of paññaa in Section 16, > Cittuppaada Ka.n.dam, Dhammasa~nga.nii (the First Book of > Abhidhamma). > > 16. Katamam tasmim samaye paññindriyam hoti? Yaa > tasmim samaye paññaa pajaananaa vicayo pavicayo dhammavicayo > sallakkha.naa upalakkha.naa paccupalakkha.naa > pa.n.diccam kosallam nepuññam vebhabyaa cintaa > upaparikkhaa bhuurii medhaa pari.naayikaa vipassanaa > sampajaññam patodo paññaa paññindriyam paññaabalam > paññaasattham paññaapaasaado paññaa-aaloko paññaa-obhaaso > paññaapajjoto paññaaratanam amoho dhammavicayo sammaadi.t.thi– > idam tasmim samaye paññindriyam hoti. > > Although the list does not contain "Anupassanaa" as in the list in > Vibha~nga, it does contain the terms of Satipa.t.thaana Suttam, > namely, pajaananaa (from pajaanaati), and sampajaññam. > > You could perhaps check the PTS translation of Dhammasanga.nii at > Section 16, Cittuppaada Ka.n.dam. See what happens in terms of > adequacy and clarity! ... Yes, this is given in full - OK very briefly, it’s a transl by Mrs Rhys Davids (your favourite, Suan;-)). “The inisght which there is on that occasion is understanding, search, research, searching the Doctrine, discernment, discrimination, differentiation, erudition, proficiency, subtlety, criticism, reflection, analysis, breadth, sagacity, a ‘guide’, intuition, intelligence, a ‘goad’; wisdom as faculty, wisdom as power, wisdom as a sword, wisdom as a height [in the sense of sth lofty], wisdom as light, wisdom as glory, wisdom as splendour, wisdom as a precious stone; the absence of dullness, searching the Truth, right views - this is the wisdom that there then is.” There are various footnote to where some of these uses occur in the suttas. Metta, Sarah ===== 31745 From: Charles Thompson Date: Thu Mar 25, 2004 9:25pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Theravada Cosmology If I may, imho, it is our mind (or heart) that frees us or limits us whether we are in a city or in the countryside. A room in a condo, a room in a Buddhist temple or a cave can all serve the same purpose - the only difference is in our perception... offered with sincere metta (maitri), Chuck Hi Thanks for all the great responses, they helped a ton! I wrote down a bunch to keep in mind. Back to city life though, it was brought up that the material dependences and desires from living in the city are relatively the same (in existence) in the countryside. To a point it is true, the material presence cannot be avoided, but isn't "the city" the paragon and quintessence of avariciousness? But, yet again, I guess it depends on where one is happier living, and can make the best of their beliefs anywhere. Has anybody here gone to any meditation caves? The idea of just being able to withdraw from the society that we know and naturally find ourselves and clear out minds in some of those caves sounds amazing to me. "The bliss of lusts and heaven-world equal not one sixteenth of the bliss of craving's ending." UDAANA 2.2 31746 From: htootintnaing Date: Fri Mar 26, 2004 5:07am Subject: [dsg] Re: charact. of rupas, Htoo Dear Nina, Thank you very much for your extensive explanation. But temperature is just a translated term and it does not exactly equate with utu, I think. Temperature in conventional term ( that is from view of science ) is just a part of physics while utu covers all rupa things. I mean even though it is right to say 'temperature' it definition is more than 'temperature' in physics. Thanks again for your time. With Metta, Htoo Naing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > Dear Htoo, > op 23-03-2004 19:00 schreef htootintnaing op htootintnaing@y...: > > > Could you please explain the relationship between temperature and > > rupa? Is utu exactly temperature? > N: Utu: PED: season, condition of climate. In the context of the Abh: tejaa > dhaatu: Element of Fire or heat. It can be translated as temperature, being > heat or cold. > It is one of the four great Elements and 31747 From: htootintnaing Date: Fri Mar 26, 2004 5:15am Subject: Re: Sensing dhamma as they really are ( 15 ) Dear Sarah, Thanks for your explanation and for your precious time. Your post is clear. But one question. Why can pannatta not be the object of mahasatipatthana? Htoo Naing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > Hi Htoo, > > Good to see you back from your trip and even breaking into verse;-) > > --- htootintnaing wrote: > > > S: As we discussed before, we cannot say all dhammaarammana are > > dhamma-ayatana. Thoughts (of the dove) are concepts and objects > > (arammana)of citta, but only paramattha dhammas are ayatanas (sense > > bases). 31748 From: Date: Fri Mar 26, 2004 0:30am Subject: Re: [dsg] Fwd: Paticcasamupada Hi, Nina - In a message dated 3/26/04 12:19:51 AM Eastern Standard Time, nilo@e... writes: > Hi Howard, > > op 25-03-2004 07:01 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: > ============================ > >On the other hand, there is the following from the Sammaditthi Sutta: > >_______________________________ > .... The way leading to the cessation of > >ignorance is just this Noble Eightfold Path; that is, right view... right > >concentration. 67. "When a noble disciple has thus understood ignorance, > the > >origin of > >ignorance, the cessation of ignorance, and the way leading to the cessation > of > >ignorance... he here and now makes an end of suffering. In that way too a > >noble > >disciple is one of right view... and has arrived at this true Dhamma." > >_______________________________ > H: So, ignorance is not always complete and all-encompassing. If it were, > >there would be no escaping from it. But one's ignorance can come to be > known, > >and in so knowing it, it can disappear at that very moment, or at least the > >movement towards its eventual demise can begin. > N:thank you for the passage with your comments, I appreciate this very much. > Eznir wrote: uninstructed person it is intrinsically impossible to know that he is > ignorant..> > The uninstructed person is someone who has not heard Dhamma. That makes all > the difference! > Nina ============================ Yes, hearing the Dhamma is the critical opening - the primary breaching of our wall of ignorance. But if the ignorance were complete to begin with, the Dhamma could find no way in. The shell of ignorance must have, and does have, some cracks in it from the outset. If people had no recognition of their dukkha at all or if they were fully immersed in self, the Dhamma would fall on deaf ears. Fortunately, all people from all backgrounds and culture, just by virtue of being human have at least some slight insight into the way things are, at least a sense of things being not unconditionally perfect. Everybody who lives long enough becomes conventionally aware of impermanence, of not being able to perfectly control events, of aging and illness, of not getting what one wants, of having what one dislikes, and of loss ... sorrowful loss. And despite how much one fulls oneself with theories and beliefs to the contrary, everyone, in his/her heart of hearts knows that "somthing is wrong" and constantly looks for "a way out". This is the fertile ground in which the seeds of all religions sprout. Most of these seeds have limited germinating capacity, producing only stunted growths with only small and shortlived flowerings. But the seed of Dhamma, especially when planted in particularly fertile soil, and when properly watered and nourished, can sprout and grow into the Bodhi tree, itself. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 31749 From: abhidhammika Date: Fri Mar 26, 2004 6:01am Subject: Re: Vipassanaa As A Synonym Of Anupassanaa In Satipa.t.thaana Suttam Dear Sarah Thank you for posting translation excerpt on synonyms of paññaa from Mrs Rhys Davids's pioneering work. I notice that she translated Vipassanaa as intuition and sampajaññam as intelligence. The following is Pali passage from Section 525, Vibha~nga. 525. "Sampajaano"ti tattha katamam sampajaññam? Yaa paññaa pajaananaa vicayo pavicayo dhammavicayo sallakkha.naa upalakkha.naa paccupalakkha.naa pa.n.diccam kosallam nepuññam vebhabyaa cintaa upaparikkhaa bhuuriimedhaa pari.naa yikaa vipassanaa sampajaññam patodo paññaa paññindriyam paññaabalam paññaasattham paññaapaasaado paññaa-aaloko paññaa-obhaaso paññaapajjoto paññaaratanam amoho dhammavicayo sammaadiµµhi– idam vuccati "sampajaññam". Iti imaaya ca satiyaa iminaa ca sampajaññena upeto hoti …pe… samannaagato. Evam bhikkhu sato sampajaano abhikkamati, sato sampajaano pa.tikkamati, sato sampajaano aaloketi, sato sampajaano viloketi, sato sampajaano samiñjeti, sato sampa jaano pasaareti, sato sampajaanakaarii hoti, sa~nghaa.tipattaciivara dhaara.ne sato sampajaanakaarii hoti, asite piite khaayite saayite sato sampajaanakaarii hoti, uccaarapassaavakamme sato sampajaanakaarii hoti, gate .thite nisinne sutte jaagarite bhaasite tu.nhiibhaave sampajaanakaarii hoti. If you could add English translation, it would be very useful for the readers who want to practice Sampajaññam meditation. With regards, Suan --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: Dear Suan, --- abhidhammika wrote: > > Does the PTS English translation contain the full list of synonyms of > paññaa? On my Cha.t.thasangaayanaa Pali Tipi.taka CD ROM, Section > 357, Vibha~nga, does not contain the full list. .... Thank you for explaining this. Now I understand and retract my earlier comments. This is why I was so confused because, just as you say, section 357 doesn't include the full list. However, one is directed in the middle of the list to section 525 which has a very exhaustive list under Awareness. You might like to check this. (sorry, too busy to type it out now). Perhaps if you check the Pali for this, I can then add the English below it if it would be useful. ..... Metta, Sarah ===== 31750 From: abhidhammika Date: Fri Mar 26, 2004 6:10am Subject: Do Samatha, Then Move On To Vipassana Just Like The Buddha Dear Sarah, Nina, Jon, Mike Niece and all How are you? The following is my reply to Yu Zhonghao on the subject of Samatha Practice and Vipassanaaa Practice. Please enjoy it. :-) Suan Lu Zaw ___________ ________ ____ ______ ____ Dear Victor, Chris, Jeff and all How are you? Thanks, Victor, for posting Vijjaabhaagiya Suttam translation. I have read some Suttams in Pali that contain the terms "Samatha and Vipassanaa" explained by the Buddha. The reason that I haven't quoted so far those Suttams with the term "Vipassanaa" is that I would like to highlight the whole Pali Tipi.taka as the body of teachings oriented towards Vipassanaa. It is not my purpose to play word-game with Jeff Brooks or anyone else. Jeff's method of quoting selective Suttam passages that support his personal views may sound scholarly, but, regrettably, is no different from the practices of high school students engaging in trivial debating contest. Victor, please refer to my earlier posts such as "Satipa.t.thaana Suttam As Vipassanaa Suttam" where you will see that I showed how the Buddha first taught Samatha such as observing exhalation and inhalation, and then moved on to teaching Vipassanaa. THe Buddha did not have to say that such and such portion of the Suttam was Samatha, and such and such portion of it was Vipassanaa. This type of Suttam analysis and identifying or inferring technical terms such as Vipassanaa (from the Suttam statements) are the functions of the Theravada commentators as I did in my posts by quoting from the standard Pali Commentaries. I hope that Jeffery Brooks can follow and understand the type and level of discussion I offer. It is too easy to blame ancient and modern traditional Theravada commentators when one's personal views are not supported by them. If one believes that one's personal views were so precious and valuable, it is best that one kept them to oneself. Why bother seeking the support of Theravada Bhikkhu Samgha and their traditional followers for one's personal views? No need to attack Theravada Bhikkhu Samgha and their traditional followers who practice pure Vipassanaa if one finds Vipassanaa practice to be unpalatable. The Buddha has left different Suttams with different emphases on Samatha and Vipassanaa in Pali Tipi.taka. It is the business of each individual to try out which suits one best. For the majority of Buddhist householders, though, the Samatha practice for attainment of Ruupa Jhaanas and Aruupa Jhaanas may prove to be beyond their reach. Samatha for Jhaanas would require one to leave everything behind such as spouses, sons, daughters, parents, friends, jobs, professions, education for degrees and livelihood skills and the like. For such householders, the best course of action would be pure Vipassanaa practice that can be done anywhere, any time, in any situation without having to leave homes, spouses, parents, sons, daughters, siblings, and friends. In addition to liberational insight, Vipassanaa practice is also intellectually very enriching because the Buddha has taught very intellectual discourses for Vipassanaaa such as Dependent Origenation, the Four Noble Truths, the Five Psychosomatic Aggregates, the Three Characteristics, among others, and the whole Abhidhamma Pi.taka. With regards, Suan Lu Zaw http://www,bodhiology.org "yu_zhonghao" wrote: Hi Suan, What is up? I would recommend the following discourse regarding samatha & vipassana. Both tranquillity and insight are to be developed. Metta, Victor Anguttara Nikaya II.30 Vijja-bhagiya Sutta A Share in Clear Knowing Translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu. For free distribution only. --------------------------------------------------------------------- ----------- "These two qualities have a share in clear knowing. Which two? Tranquillity (samatha) & insight (vipassana). "When tranquillity is developed, what purpose does it serve? The mind is developed. And when the mind is developed, what purpose does it serve? Passion is abandoned. "When insight is developed, what purpose does it serve? Discernment is developed. And when discernment is developed, what purpose does it serve? Ignorance is abandoned. "Defiled by passion, the mind is not released. Defiled by ignorance, discernment does not develop. Thus from the fading of passion is there awareness-release. From the fading of ignorance is there discernment-release." --------------------------------------------------------------------- ----------- See also: AN IX.43; AN IX.44; AN IX.45; SN XII.70. --------------------------------------------------------------------- ----------- Revised: Sun 19-Oct-2003 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an02-030.html Metta, Victor "abhidhammika" wrote: Dear Jeff, Chris and all How are you? Chris quoted from Digha Nikaya, Sutta 16: "The First Truth has to be understood. The Second Truth has to be abandoned. The Third Truth has to be realised. The Fourth Truth has to be developed." The post written by Chris does not contain the term "Vipassanaa", but it is about Vipassanaa practice because it will end the First Noble Truth of Suffering. Jeff, why are you so afraid of the term "Vipassanaa"? Are you afraid of the Four Noble Truths? Teachings on the Four Noble Truths may or may not contain the term "Vipassanaa", but they are the principles that a practitioner of Vipassanaa must work with until the liberational insight (Vipassanaa) is realized. For a Buddhist who is bent on ending the First Noble Truth of Suffering, Vipassanaa is far more important than being stuck in the Ruupa and Aruupa Jhaanas. In the First Dhamma Wheel Turning Discourse (Dhammacakkapavattana Suttam), the Buddha explicitly asked us to get rid of kaama ta.nhaa, bhava ta.nhaa, and vibhava ta.nhaa. Bhava ta.nhaa is attachment to Ruupa bhavas (Lives reborned through Ruupa Jhaana) and Aruupa bhavas (Lives reborned through Aruupa Jhaana). The Buddha's instruction to eradicate attachment to rebirths through Jhaanas leaves us to understand that we must also eradicate attachment to Ruupa Jhaanas (Ruupa ta.nhaa) and attachment to Aruupa Jhaanas (Aruupa ta.nhaa), and that Samatha Jhaanas without the Vipassanaa base are worthless. I hope that Jeff understands the implications of the Buddha's Dhamma Wheel Turning Discourse and begins to embrace Vipassanaa practice in order to demolish his present attachment to Samatha Jhaanas. With regards, Suan Lu Zaw http://www.bodhiology.org 31752 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Fri Mar 26, 2004 8:31am Subject: Recognizing the Dhamma - 6. Seclusion(§ 6.1., § 6.2.) § 6.1. I have heard that on one occasion the Blessed One was staying near Savatthi in Jeta's Grove, Anathapindika's monastery. Now at that time a certain lay follower from Icchanangalaka had arrived in Savatthi on some business affairs. Having settled his affairs in Savatthi, he went to the Blessed One and, on arrival, having bowed down to him, sat to one side. As he was sitting there, the Blessed One said to him, "At long last you have managed to come here." "For a long time I have wanted to come see the Blessed One, lord, but being involved in one business affair after another, I have not been able to do so." Then, on realizing the significance of that, the Blessed One on that occasion exclaimed: How blissful it is, for one who has nothing who has mastered the Dhamma, is learned. See how they suffer, those who have something, people bound in body with people. [Ud II.5] § 6.2. "'This Dhamma is for one who is reclusive, not for one who is entangled.' Thus was it said. With reference to what was it said? There is the case where a monk, when living in seclusion, is visited by monks, nuns, lay men, lay women, kings, royal ministers, sectarians & their disciples. With his mind bent on seclusion, tending toward seclusion, inclined toward seclusion, aiming at seclusion, relishing renunciation, he converses with them only as much is necessary for them to take their leave. 'This Dhamma is for one who is reclusive, not for one in entanglement.' Thus was it said. And with reference to this was it said. [AN VIII.30] http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/study/recognizing.html#seclusion 31753 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Fri Mar 26, 2004 8:36am Subject: Kamma - I. Non-Buddhist Theories - § 1. § 1. "Monks, there are these three sectarian guilds that -- when cross- examined, pressed for reasons, & rebuked by wise people -- even though they may explain otherwise, remain stuck in [a doctrine of] inactivity. Which three? "There are priests & contemplatives who hold this teaching, hold this view: 'Whatever a person experiences -- pleasant, painful, or neither pleasant nor painful -- that is all caused by what was done in the past.' There are priests & contemplatives who hold this teaching, hold this view: 'Whatever a person experiences -- pleasant, painful, or neither pleasant nor painful -- that is all caused by a supreme being's act of creation.' There are priests & contemplatives who hold this teaching, hold this view: 'Whatever a person experiences -- pleasant, painful, or neither pleasant nor painful -- that is all without cause & without condition.' "Having approached the priests & contemplatives who hold that... whatever a person experiences... is all caused by what was done in the past,' I said to them: 'Is it true that you hold that... whatever a person experiences... is all caused by what was done in the past?' Thus asked by me, they admitted, 'Yes.' Then I said to them, 'Then in that case, a person is a killer of living beings because of what was done in the past. A person is a thief... unchaste... a liar... a divisive speaker... an abusive speaker... an idle chatterer... covetous... malevolent... a holder of wrong views because of what was done in the past.' When one falls back on what was done in the past as being essential, monks, there is no desire, no effort [at the thought], 'This should be done. This shouldn't be done.' When one can't pin down as a truth or reality what should & shouldn't be done, one dwells bewildered & unprotected. One cannot righteously refer to oneself as a contemplative... "Having approached the priests & contemplatives who hold that... whatever a person experiences... is all caused by a supreme being's act of creation,' I said to them: 'Is it true that you hold that... whatever a person experiences... is all caused by a supreme being's act of creation?' Thus asked by me, they admitted, 'Yes.' Then I said to them, 'Then in that case, a person is a killer of living beings... a holder of wrong views because of a supreme being's act of creation.' When one falls back on a supreme being's act of creation as being essential, monks, there is no desire, no effort [at the thought], 'This should be done. This shouldn't be done.' When one can't pin down as a truth or reality what should & shouldn't be done, one dwells bewildered & unprotected. One cannot righteously refer to oneself as a contemplative... "Having approached the priests & contemplatives who hold that... whatever a person experiences... is all without cause, without condition,' I said to them: 'Is it true that you hold that... whatever a person experiences... is all without cause, without condition?' Thus asked by me, they admitted, 'Yes.' Then I said to them, 'Then in that case, a person is a killer of living beings without cause, without condition. A person is a thief... unchaste... a liar... a divisive speaker... an abusive speaker... an idle chatterer... covetous... malevolent... a holder of wrong views without cause, without condition.' When one falls back on lack of cause and lack of condition as being essential, monks, there is no desire, no effort [at the thought], 'This should be done. This shouldn't be done.' When one can't pin down as a truth or reality what should & shouldn't be done, one dwells bewildered & unprotected. One cannot righteously refer to oneself as a contemplative." [AN III.61] http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/study/kamma.html#nonbuddhist 31754 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Mar 26, 2004 11:08am Subject: nutrition, Vis. 70 (Quote from my Rupas): Nutrition is another kind of rúpa which has to arise with every kind of materiality. It can be exerienced only through the mind-door. The ³Dhammasangaùi² (§ 646) mentions food such as boiled rice, sour gruel, flour, etc., which can be eaten and digested into the ³juice² by which living beings are kept alive. The ³Atthasåliní² (II, Book II, Ch III, 330) explains that there is foodstuff, the substance which is swallowed (kabalinkåro åhåro, literally, morsel-made food), and the ³nutritive essence²(ojå). The foodstuff which is swallowed fills the stomach so that one does not grow hungry. The nutritive essence present in food preserves beings, keeps them alive. The nutritive essence in gross foodstuff is weak, and in subtle foodstuff it is strong. After eating coarse grain one becomes hungry after a brief interval. But when one has taken ghee (butter) one does not want to eat for a long time (Atthasåliní, 331). The ³Atthasåliní²(332) gives the following definition of nutriment: As to its characteristic, etc., solid food has the characteristic of nutritive essence, the function of fetching matter (to the eater), of sustaining matter as its manifestation, of substance to be swallowed as proximate cause. Nutritive essence is not only present in rice and other foods, it is also present in what we call a rock or sand. It is present in any kind of materiality. Insects are able to digest what human beings cannot digest, such as, for example, wood. Nutrition is one of the four factors which produce rúpas of the body. As we have seen, the other factors are kamma, citta and temperature. In the unborn being in the mother¹s womb, groups of rúpa produced by nutrition arise as soon as the nutritive essence present in food taken by its mother pervades its body (Visuddhimagga XVII, 194). From then on nutrition keeps on producing rúpas and sustaining the rúpas of the body throughout life. We can notice that nutrition produces rúpas when good or bad food affects the body in different ways. Bad food may cause the skin to be ugly, whereas the taking of vitamins for example may cause skin and hair to look healthy.... In the Commentary to the ³Satipatthåna Sutta² [1], in the section on Mindfulness of the Body, ³Clear Comprehension in Partaking of Food and Drink², we read that, when one swallows food, there is no one who puts the food down into the stomach with a ladle or spoon, but there is the element of wind performing its function. We then read about digestion: ... There is no one who having put up an oven and lit a fire is cooking each lump standing there. By only the process of caloricity (heat) the lump of food matures. There is no one who expels each digested lump with a stick or pole. Just the process of oscillation (the element of wind or motion) expels the digested food. There is no self who eats and drinks, there are only elements performing their functions. Whatever kind of materiality arises, there have to be the four Great Elements and the four derived rúpas of visible object, odour, flavour and nutrition. Footnote 1. The Papañcasúdaní. See ³The Way of Mindfulness², a translation of the Satipatthåna Sutta, Middle Length Sayings I, 10, and its Commentary, by Ven. Soma, B.P.S. Kandy. 31755 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Mar 26, 2004 11:08am Subject: D.O. Formations. Dear all, Avijjaapaccayaa sa²nkhaara: ignorance conditions formations. Instead of sa²nkhaara also the term aabhisa²nkhaara is used. Aabhi is used in the sense of preponderance. Abhisankhara is volition, it is kamma. Using the Vis. quote that Ken O posted: N: The Vis then explains that kamma can be performed through body, speech and mind. We read in the ³Dispeller of Delusion² Ch 5, 647, the explanation according to the Suttanta: <647. Herein, the first triad is taken in accordance with the Parivimamsanasutta (S II 80). For therein it is said: ³If he forms a formation of merit, consciousness achieves merit; if he forms a formation of demerit, consciousness achieves demerit; if he forms a formation of the imperturbable, consciousness achieves the imperturbable². The second triad is taken in accordance with the Vibhangasutta next to that [footnote: this is: S II, 4]. (It is permissable to say that it is taken in accordance with the method of the Sammaditthisutta, M I 54, too.) For therein it is said: ³Three, bhikkhus are the formations. Which three? The bodily formation, the verbal formation and the mental formation.² 648. But why are these taken in accordance with these suttas? This Abhidhamma is not newly made; nor is it spoken by sages outside [the dispensation], nor by disciples, nor by deities. But this is spoken by the Omniscient Conquerer. It is in order to illustrate this meaning that a single textual passage is set forth in like manner in the Abhidhamma and in the suttas....> Nina. 31756 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Mar 26, 2004 11:08am Subject: gross and subtle food Hi Larry, I read in the Expositor (II, p.431) about subtle and gross food: This makes it more comprehensible that there is nutritive essense in rupas that form up stones. Termites like wooden poles, etc. It depends on beings' inclinations and the capacity of their digestive system. Nina. 31757 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Fri Mar 26, 2004 11:32am Subject: Re: Kamma - I. Non-Buddhist Theories - § 1. Hi all, I would highlight the following wrong view and the result of that wrong view: "There are priests & contemplatives who hold this teaching, hold this view: 'Whatever a person experiences -- pleasant, painful, or neither pleasant nor painful -- that is all caused by what was done in the past.' When one falls back on what was done in the past as being essential, monks, there is no desire, no effort [at the thought], 'This should be done. This shouldn't be done.' When one can't pin down as a truth or reality what should & shouldn't be done, one dwells bewildered & unprotected. Metta, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "yu_zhonghao" wrote: > § 1. > "Monks, there are these three sectarian guilds that -- when cross- [snip] http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/study/kamma.html#nonbuddhist 31758 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Fri Mar 26, 2004 2:17pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: the self. . . how?/Jack Swee Boon --- nidive wrote: > Hi Jon, Oh Jon, I am getting so confused. What is the difference between "being subject to 'outside' forces" and "exerting 'influence'"? Jon: Now I'm confused too ;-)) I don't recall having anything to say on the expression "exerting influence" in this thread. But looking back, I notice this comment of yours in a post to Ken O: <> so let me pick it up from there. In terms of the words 'influence' and 'force' there is no difference as far as I'm concerned. The only difference I would see between the 2 expressions in your question to me is this: that when we say "is conditioned" or "is subject to 'outside' forces" we are speaking from the point of view of the conditioned dhamma ('B' in your example above), whereas when we say "is exerting influence over" we are speaking from the point of view of the conditioning dhamma ('A' in your example), so it depends which of the 2 is the focus of our interest. If the focus is 'B', then I think the proper equivalent expression would be "is subject to influence". Not sure if this clarifies anything or takes the discussion further ;-)) Swee Boon: Having seen for myself what is control without a controller, I am independent of the views of others. I am sharing with others that such a thing is possible. Jon: I'm glad for you for any insights you may have had, but let's not forget that there's still plenty to be known. As I said in my last post, there are in fact frequent references to control, mastery etc in the sutta pitaka, so there is no argument from me on the point that in a relative sense there can be control. But, as I read the texts, in an absolute sense, because of the conditioned nature of dhammas, it cannot be said that dhammas are subject to control. Swee Boon: Strive, practise mindfulness immersed in the body without assumption of any self-identity. Such a thing is possible. Don't later fall into regret. Jon: Certainly striving and mindfulness are possible. As far as striving is concerned, this can be either kusala or akusala, and we of course are interested only in the kusala kind. Likewise by mindfulness we are not referring to just anything that could loosely be called 'mindfulness/awareness' but to a particular form of kusala that is the key to the development of the path and escape from samsara. It is important that we understand clearly the difference in practice between the kusala and the akusala, the right and wrong forms, because of our 'practice' is not the former then it will be the latter and we are going in totally the wrong direction. In this sense also we would not wish to later fall into regret. Jon 31759 From: Date: Fri Mar 26, 2004 3:46pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Theravada Cosmology Hi Nina, Thanks for the correction. There is no supramundane plane of existence. Can supramundane consciousnesses with nibbana as object arise in any of the 31 planes of existence? Are the 31 planes divided into sensuous, fine-material, and immaterial? Larry 31760 From: Date: Fri Mar 26, 2004 4:09pm Subject: Vism.XIV 70 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) Ch. XIV 70. 24. 'Physical nutriment' has the characteristic of nutritive essence. Its function is to feed kinds of matter. It is manifested as consolidating. Its proximate cause is a physical basis that must be fed with physical food. It is a term for the nutritive essence by means of which living beings sustain themselves (cf. Dhs. 646). 31761 From: Date: Fri Mar 26, 2004 4:42pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism.XIV 70 Hi Nina, What is a "physical basis"? A living being or maybe just one of the groups with life faculty? I notice that nutriment doesn't produce living groups of matter. This seems a little odd. Only kamma produces living matter. What about genetic engineering, skin grafts, transplants, artificial body parts etc.? I was wondering about Sarah's food poisoning. It seems that we can't really say nutriment is akusala because that designation is reserved only for consciousness, but Vism. note 35 says kusala is " 'profitable' in the sense of health..." and " 'unprofitable' is the opposite". Is poison akusala or just undesirable (ani.t.tha)? Larry ---------------------- "70. 24. 'Physical nutriment' has the characteristic of nutritive essence. Its function is to feed kinds of matter. It is manifested as consolidating. Its proximate cause is a physical basis that must be fed with physical food. It is a term for the nutritive essence by means of which living beings sustain themselves (cf. Dhs. 646)." 31762 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Fri Mar 26, 2004 5:21pm Subject: Exerting influence vs. Conditioned (was. the self. . . how?/Jack) Swee Boon Me again. Having just re-read my last message, I think I now see the point of your earlier question, What is the difference between "being subject to 'outside' forces" and "exerting 'influence'"? You are saying that if dhammas are subject to influence, it means they can be influenced, that is to say, that we can exert influence over them. I don’t think that follows at all. Dhammas are subject to influence only in the sense that they are subject of the general law of nature (niyaama), or the 'rules' of dependent origination. They are not subject to influence *by us*. Hope I've now understood your point. Jon --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Swee Boon > > --- nidive wrote: > Hi Jon, > Oh Jon, I am getting so confused. > > What is the difference between "being subject to 'outside' forces" > and "exerting 'influence'"? > > Jon: > Now I'm confused too ;-)) I don't recall having anything to say on > the expression "exerting influence" in this thread. But looking > back, I notice this comment of yours in a post to Ken O: > < "influence" over the latter. > Or, if A conditions B, A is exerting "influence" over B.>> > so let me pick it up from there. > > In terms of the words 'influence' and 'force' there is no > difference > as far as I'm concerned. The only difference I would see between > the > 2 expressions in your question to me is this: that when we say "is > conditioned" or "is subject to 'outside' forces" we are speaking > from > the point of view of the conditioned dhamma ('B' in your example > above), whereas when we say "is exerting influence over" we are > speaking from the point of view of the conditioning dhamma ('A' in > your example), so it depends which of the 2 is the focus of our > interest. If the focus is 'B', then I think the proper equivalent > expression would be "is subject to influence". > > Not sure if this clarifies anything or takes the discussion further > ;-)) 31763 From: Sarah Date: Fri Mar 26, 2004 9:48pm Subject: Re: [dsg] BB4 - Space Dear All, --- Sarah wrote: > Dear Friends, > > I sent a few brief comments back to Bhikkhu Bodhi in response to his on > this subject and I'll pass on any further feedback if he gives any. .... S: In reply to my comments posted the other day (see end of post), B.Bodhi sent the following yesterday: ***** BB: >I checkedd my copy of the Comprehensive Manual and so far as I can see, you are right and my assertion is wrong. In the next edition, the sentence on p. 241 (Guide to para. 4), 'Thus they are not included among the ultimate realities (paramattha dhamma)', would have to be taken out. Were there any other statements in the book making the same point about the anipphannarupas? With metta, Bhikkhu Bodhi< ***** S:If Mike, KenO or anyone else has anything further to add, please do so. I think we can all appreciate B.Bodhi's willingness to reconsider and amend any perceived errors. Metta, Sarah ===== > BB: > On the status of the space element: I tried to do > > some research on this, but > > could not come up with a conclusive answer. You may > > be correct. I had always > > assumed that the defining mark of a > > paramattha-dhamma according to the > > Theravada Abhidhamma system is sabhAvato vijjamAna > > ("existing through > > intrinsic nature"), but your challenge makes me > > think this may not be > > correct. > ..... > S: I’d like to make a few comments with respect if I may and perhaps I > can > put them in point form. I’m not sure if any logic will be apparent and > please ignore it if you’d prefer or are busy. Of course comments on any > errors are most welcome. > > 1.CMA, 1#2 Fourfold paramattha-dhammas (inc *all* rupas as I understand) > > 2. Summary & Exposition (Wijeratne & Gethin transl)p7 explanation to > above > defines rupas here as ‘the aggregate of materiality differentiated as > the > elements and dependent [materialities] (upaadaruupa) > > 3. CMA,V1#5 28 Rupas inc. anipphannaruupa inc in upaadaruupa > > 4. CMA V1, 2, guide 2 Upaadaaya ruupa ‘are material phenomena derived > from, or dependent upon, the four great essentials. these are > twenty-four > in number.’ > > 5. Exposition p230 refers to conditioned nature etc of all rupas. > > 6. Vism 1, n14 from Pm 40-41 > “ ‘But these are simply modes of interpreting (sannivesaakaara) the > kinds > of materiality derived from the (four) primaries that are interpreted > (sannivi.t.tha) in such and such wise; for apart from that there is in > the > ultimate sense [paramattho] no such thing as a hand and so on’.” > > I assume ‘that’ refers to the four primaries and derived rupas here. > > 7. Paramattha dhammas refer to the same realities as the khandhas + > nibbana. > Vism X1V,72 under ‘the Aggregates’ > “So this derived matter of twenty-four sorts and the aforesaid matter of > the primary elements, which is of four sorts, together amount to > twenty-eight sorts, neither more nor less. > > And all that [matter of twenty-eight sorts] is of one kind as ‘not > root-cause, root-causeless, dissociated from root-cause, with > conditions, > mundane, subject to cankers’ (Dhs#5840, and so on.” > > 8. As I understand, space (akaasaa ruupa) has a characteristic which can > be known and is included in the khandhas, the aayatanas and the dhaatus > - > all of which consist of paramattha dhammas only. > ...... > BB: >It would not be enough, though, merely to > > bring forth rational > > arguments, as Nina does; one would have to quote > > texts that establish that > > space is paramattha without being sabhAvato > > vijjamAna. > .... > S: Going back to the first two points above, surely here in the prologue > to CMA and its commentary, paramattha is clearly defined in terms of all > cittas, cetasikas, rupas and nibbana without exceptions and as > elaborated > on in the main text? > ..... <....> 31764 From: Htoo Naing Date: Sat Mar 27, 2004 3:40am Subject: Sensing dhamma as they really are ( 17 ) Dear Dhamma Friends, The meditator has slept and he just wakes up. He knows that he is awake. He knows that he is in bed. He is planning for the day and he also knows that he is planning and thinking. At each mind activity he looks into that activity and he sees what are there. I wants to get out of bed to start the day. He knows that he wants so. Bending the elbow, holding the blanket, stretching the arm, beding the hip, bending the knee, stretching the leg, putting down the leg on the floor, rising up and stand on feet. Through out all these movement he looks into detail and sees them intact. He knows that he wants to go to the toilet. Stepping, swinging, footing, standing, taking off another foot, swinging, footing, standing and so on. In the toliet, he knows that he wants to sit on. Turning, bending trunk, hip and knee, touching with the commode, sitting, want to release, release, releive. Want to clean, clean. Through out all these activities he stays in investigation into matters. Stand up, stretching, stepping, swinging, footing, standing, taking off and so on and he knows that he wants to go to the basin and then he washes his hands knowingly the touches of water noting the characters. Washing, brushing, cleaning, wiping and then he goes for a shower and notes through out. Flowing, drying, wiping and cleaning are all noted. Each activity is investigated in detail. He just takes an ordinary dressing and he consciously changes the dressing. Combing, putting things in their place and then he prepares for paying homage to The Buddha image in the shrine. He sits mindfully and he touches at five areas in his worshiping that is feet, knees, elbows, hands and the forehead. Then he does the routine citing and pays homage to triplegem. He knows he is in tranquil and peace. Through all these activities, he looks into them intact and sees all of them. Then he sits. He knows that he is breathing. When it is long he knows it as long particularly the long touch. When it is short, he knows it as short, noting touch. When in, he knows he is breathing in and when out he knows it out. He knows at that time that he is well calm. He knows calmness is good but he is not too stick to it but investigate it. He stays so in detail analysis through out these activities. For some time he has sat and he has been mindful. He wants to rise up. He notes that he wants so. He knows all his bodily movement. From sitting to standing, standing to walking. And he also knows all his actions carrying utensils, plates, cups and saucers. He sits at the breakfast table. He notes that he wants to eat as he was fast the whole night. He notes he stretches his hand and takes the food. he notes that he brings the food to his mouth, opening the mouth, putting the food into the mouth, close the mouth, grind the food, wants to swallows and then swallows the ground food. Stretch out to take the glass, put on the table, pour juice into the glass, want to drink, take to the mouth, put into the mouth, hold and swallow the juice. He knows that he finishes his breakfast, wants to clean mouth and lips with tissue, clean them, put the tissue into the bin. Want to stand, stand, move around and engage the routine. He notes through out the day as far as he can and when he is back home, he changes his dressing mindfully with loose dressing for ease. Have dinner mindfully and finish it and he leaves the dinner table and he sits at his table planning for tomorrow. He knows that he is planning. Through out all these activities he looks into matters as deeply as he can. When the investigation of phenomenon works evidently he realises that wisdom is working. Wisdom feeds other co-arising dhamma. Wisdom realizes the mind and matters. When activity after activity are being well investigated and every event is well analysed and investigated and that wisdom becomes a factor of peer factors that assist arising of higher wisdom. Investigation of phenomenon is not him or his. He knows that wisdom just arises and falls away.The meditator perceives these and there is no one doing anything. There is no him or his in the whole process of understanding.There is no trace of self or there is no trace of atta all in these dhamma. They just arise and fall away. There is no evidence of permanence. They all are impermanence. They all are anicca as they all are impermanent. As they are impermanent, there is nothing to be attached and there is no trace of pleasure or sukha. All are unsatisfactory. All are dukkha. No one is controlling all these process. As there is no control, they all are anatta. May all beings see dhamma as they really are. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing htootintnaing@y... JourneyToNibbana@yahoogroups.com 31765 From: Philip Date: Sat Mar 27, 2004 4:22am Subject: Abandoning and relinquishing Hello all. I would like to check my understanding of the following passage from the Latukikopama Sutta (MN66). If you have a moment, kindly read the following, and my questions below: "Udayin, there are these four types of people to be found existing in the world. Which four? There is the case where a certain person is practicing for the abandoning & relinquishing of acquisitions. As he is practicing for the abandoning & relinquishing of acquisitions, memories & resolves associated with acquisitions assail him. He acquiesces to them. He does not abandon them, destroy them, dispel them, or wipe them out of existence. I tell you, Udayin, that this sort of person is fettered, not unfettered. Why is that? Because I have known the diversity of faculties with regard to this type of person. "Then there is the case where a certain person practicing for the abandoning & relinquishing of acquisitions. As he is practicing for the abandoning & relinquishing of acquisitions, memories & resolves associated with acquisitions assail him. He does not acquiesce to them. He abandons them, destroys them, dispels them, & wipes them out of existence. I tell you, Udayin, that this sort of person is fettered, not unfettered. Why is that? Because I have known the diversity of faculties with regard to this type of person. "Then there is the case where a certain person is practicing for the abandoning & relinquishing of acquisitions. As he is practicing for the abandoning & relinquishing of acquisitions, then -- from time to time, owing to lapses in mindfulness -- he is assailed by memories & resolves associated with acquisitions. Slow is the arising of his mindfulness, but then he quickly abandons [those memories & resolves], destroys them, dispels them, & wipes them out of existence. Just as when two or three drops of water fall onto an iron pan heated all day: Slow is the falling of the drops of water, but they quickly vanish & disappear. In the same way, there is the case where a certain person is practicing for the abandoning & relinquishing of acquisitions. As he is practicing for the abandoning & relinquishing of acquisitions, then -- from time to time, owing to lapses in mindfulness -- he is assailed by memories & resolves associated with acquisitions. Slow is the arising of his mindfulness, but then he quickly abandons [those memories & resolves], destroys them, dispels them, & wipes them out of existence. I tell you, Udayin, that this sort of person is fettered, not unfettered. Why is that? Because I have known the diversity of faculties with regard to this type of person. "Then there is the case where a certain person, realizing that acquisitions are the root of suffering & stress, is without acquisitions, released in the ending of acquisitions. I tell you, Udayin, that this sort of person is unfettered, not fettered. Why is that? Because I have known the diversity of faculties with regard to this type of person. "There are these four types of people to be found existing in the world. (end passage) Questions: Does this sutta's "4 types of person" represent a progress from unskillful behaviour to skillful behaviour. It seems to me that it does. I see myself now as vacillating between being the first kind of person, who tolerates acquisition of new unwholesome accumulations and the second kind of person, who takes action to "wipe them out of existence." It's interesting that the second kind of person remains fettered despite taking action against acquisitions. I think the third kind of person depticted here has developed satipatthana to the extent that skillful response arises immediately in response to "lapses in mindfulness" without any need for taking action intentionally. The "iron pan heated all day" would be the mind conditioned by proper reflection on dhamma teachings, and discussion with dhamma friends, and most importantly cultivation of satipatthana - though I haven't understood yet just how one goes about cultivating satipatthana. And then the 4th kind of person " realizing that acquisitions are the root of suffering & stress" has right understanding to the point that there are no more "lapses in mindfulness." I would guess that you experienced practitioners are in the third category, and aiming for the 4th. Do you see that kind of progression laid out in this sutta, or am I oversimplifying it? Thanks in advance for any feedback. Metta Phil 31766 From: Philip Date: Sat Mar 27, 2004 5:45am Subject: Robber Guests (was Re: new pages Hello all. Browsing about in the posts from way back when, came across this. I appreciate this metaphor of the robber-guest. I would like to think about it more, but will send it along now as a way of marking it for future consideration. I will probably want to think about extending the metaphor, and about to what extent we can an/or should guard the doors. And what is the skillful way to handle the pleasant guest. The passage below makes it sound as if finding pleasure is automatically akusala. ("At that moment the robber is there because the pleasure and attachment which arise are akusala-dhamma") Is that always the case? Does attachment inevitably arise from pleasure? And what role panna would play in this metaphor? An akusala detector at the door? If we know that pleasure leads to attachment, can we nevertheless learn to find pleasure in vistors in a wise way that avoids akusala? Or is only the arahant free from the arising of attachment and aversion? (Sorry if I've asked a similar question before.) Metta, Phil --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Jonothan Abbott" wrote: > >Just uploaded 2 new pages to the section 'A Few Words' at > >, which should really be called 'Varee's > >Choices' but she wouldn't let me. > >Enjoy: 'Infinity' and 'Abandoning', > > Amara, > > I was so taken by the earlier passage 'Visitors' that I thought other > members may appreciate it too. I hope you don't mind me posting an > abbreviated version of your translation for the list. Here it is: > > > We generally think of visitors as being people. But the objects that appear > through the different sense-doors can be regarded as visitors, too. > > When we see a sight or hear a sound, the sight or sound is a guest. Every > sense-door object is a guest of the doorway (eye, ear, nose, tongue or > body-sense) through which it appears, for just the shortest moment before it > falls away. > > There are welcome guests and unwelcome guests. If the guests are favourite > relatives or friends, we await their arrival and we find their company > enjoyable. However, if the guests were robbers, we would not welcome them. > > Of course, the objects that appear through the sense-doors are inanimate > with no malice for anyone. But they can still be a robber or a friend. > When pleasant guests arrive at the sense-door, we take pleasure in the > sight, sound, smell, taste or bodily contact. At that moment the robber is > there because the pleasure and attachment which arise are akusala- dhamma > (unwholesome realities), and akusala-dhamma is nobody's friend. On the > other hand, kusala-dhamma (wholesome realities) are like a close relative or > friend that is a benefactor in all circumstances. > > The unwholesome consciousness which is associated with the robbers at the > sense-doors is itself the cause for more robber-guests in the future, while > wholesome consciousness is like a relative or friend, and is the cause for > future visits of relatives and friends as well. > > We should know the characteristics of the different moments of consciousness > (citta): akusala-citta is harmful, like a robber, not a friend. > [ends] > > May this be a conditon to for useful reflection when robbers disguised as > pleasant objects come visiting! > > Jonothan > 31767 From: abhidhammika Date: Sat Mar 27, 2004 6:41am Subject: Do Vipassanaa As The Buddha In Dhammapada Verse 373 And 374 Teaches Us Dear Sarah, Nina, Jon, Mike Niece and Dhamma friends, How are you? The following is my response to Jeffery Brooks's selective omissions of Dhammapada Verse 373 and Verse 374 that teaches Vipassanaa meditation. Please enjoy it! :-) Suan ___________ __________ ________ __ ___ Dear Jeffery and all How are you? By selectively quoting only the verse 372 to support your personal views, you missed the all-inclusive nature of the teaching system of the Buddha. You need to read all the related verses from 368 to 376 as a whole group to get the right perspective and context of the Dhammapada story "Sambahulabhikkhuvatthu". The following two verses teach how to practice Vipassanaa meditation. 373. "Suññaagaaram pavi.t.thassa, santacittassa bhikkhuno. amaanusii ratii hoti, sammaa dhammam vipassato. 374. "Yato yato sammasati, khandhaanam udayabbayam; labhatii piitipaamojjam, amatam tam vijaanatam. Please pay attention to the term "vipassato" in verse 373 which refutes your repeated claim that the Buddha did not teach Vipassanaa. Please also pay attention to the statement "Yato yato sammasati, khandhaanam udayabbayam" in verse 374. That is how the Buddha taught Vipassanaa meditation. When we are doing Vipassanaa meditation, we need to get out of any Ruupa Jhaanas or Aruupa Jhaanas. Why? As you know very well how Samatha works. Samatha practice requires us to focuss on a sigle object only, and any Ruupa Jhaana or Aruupa Jhaana gained through Samatha practice is also absorbed in a single Jhaana object only. But, in verse 374, the Buddha was asking us to observe and reflect on the emergence and disappearance of FIVE psychosomatic aggregates, namely, matter aggregate, feeling aggregate, memory aggregate, activation aggregate, and consciousness aggregate. And each aggregate comes with many types and instances. For example, feeling aggregate has five kinds of feelings such as pain, comfort, pleasure, displeasure and neutral feeling while activation aggregate comes with 50 mental associates (cetasikas). Consciousness aggregate comes with 89 types of consciousnesses while memory aggregate has countless types of memories. Now, the Buddha was asking us to observe and reflect each instance of any member of those aggregates as they emerge and as they disappear in various circustances. Put it another way, as soon as the Buddha asked us to practice Vipassanaa meditation in verse 373 and 374, he was asking us to work with multiple objects of real phenomena. For us to be able to do that, he was also asking us to get out of any Ruupa Jhaana or Aruupa Jhaana because those Jhaanas can absorb only a single object. In other words, while we are doing Vipassanaa meditation, we are outside any Jhaana absorption. We do Vipassanaa meditation with our ordinary minds that have non-Jhaanic or near-Jhaanic concentration (upacaara samaadhi). That is why I say to you "Do Samatha, Then Move On To Vipassana As The Buddha Taught in Dhammapada Verse 373 and Verse 374." Do you have any problems with the Buddha's teachings on Vipassanaa meditation in those Dhammapada verse 373 and 374? With regards, Suan Lu Zaw http://www.bodhiology.org --- In BuddhistWellnessGroup@yahoogroups.com, Jeffrey Brooks wrote: Hello Suan, I understood you very well. You sounded very smug and dismissive. I have found we sometime naively embrace ideas just because the elders taught them to us. However when we examine the canon we find that even though the commentaries say one thing, the Buddha said another. I am a "simple Buddhist householder" who found jhana from a simply daily practice while discharging my responsibilities as a son, a husband and a parent. Therefore I know jhana is accessible to everyone, even the "simple Buddhist householders," let alone the monks who suffer from so much ignorance delusion and doubt that they think life it too difficult these days, even for a monk, to embrace jhana. Dhammapada Verse 372 Natthi jhaanam apan~n~assa, pan~n~aa natthi ajhaayato, Yamhi jhaanan~ ca pan~n~an~ ca sa ve nibbaanasantike. "There is no absorption (jhana) without wisdom(panna), No wisdom without absorption. One who is close to emancipation (nibbana/nirvana) has both wisdom and absorption." Kindest regards, Jeff Brooks ---------------- Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2004 07:30:24 -0000 From: "abhidhammika" Subject: Do Samatha, Then Move On To Vipassana Just Like The Buddha <> --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jeffrey Brooks wrote: > There is no absorption (jhana) without wisdom (panna), > No wisdom without absorption. > > Hello Suan, it is a beautiful morning here. I have 31768 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sat Mar 27, 2004 10:54am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: charact. of rupas, Htoo Dear Htoo, Utu is also translated as season, which is not so clear to me. When I think of temperature, I mean heat or cold. That is why all these terms have to be explained in the context, preferably with Pali. No translation is adequate. The element of heat is better. Nina. op 26-03-2004 14:07 schreef htootintnaing op htootintnaing@y...: > Thank you very much for your extensive explanation. But temperature > is just a translated term and it does not exactly equate with utu, I > think. Temperature in conventional term ( that is from view of > science ) is just a part of physics while utu covers all rupa things. > I mean even though it is right to say 'temperature' it definition is > more than 'temperature' in physics. 31769 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sat Mar 27, 2004 10:54am Subject: Re: [dsg] Recognizing the Dhamma - 5. Contentment ( § 5.6.) Dear Victor, Thank you very much. I have Peter Masefield's transl of Co, I, p. 347. See below. op 26-03-2004 01:31 schreef yu_zhonghao op yu_zhonghao@y...: > § 5.6. > I have heard that on one occasion the Blessed One was staying at > Anupiya in the Mango Orchard. Now at that time, Ven. Bhaddiya > Kaligodha, on going to a forest, to the foot of a tree, or to an > empty dwelling, would repeatedly exclaim, "What bliss! What bliss!" N: The Co states that Prince Bhaddiya went forth and developed vipassana, acquired six abhi~n~nas and observed the thirteen ascetical pracices. A bhi~n~nas are five supranatural powers acquired through jhana and the sixth is the eradication of all defilements. Thus, he had become an arahat. We read: Non-returners and arahats who have developed jhana and vipassana can, after the process during which enlightenment is attained, have many moments of fruitionconsciousness experiencing nibbana. This is phala-samapatti, fruition-attainment. Nina. 31770 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sat Mar 27, 2004 11:30am Subject: Re: Abandoning and relinquishing Hello Philip, Bhikkhu Bodhi says in this sutta La.tukikopama Sutta 'The Simile of the Quail' the Buddha drives home the importance of abandoning all fetters, no matter how harmless and trifling they may seem. I have inserted Bhikkhu Bodhi's explanatory notes numbers 673, 674, 675, 676, and 677 into the text you provided. Hope it is of assistance, and that others may give answers to your questions. metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- note 673: MA: The Buddha undertakes this teaching in order to analyse the person who abandons what he is told to abandon into four distinct types of individuals. note 674: Upadhi: MA glosses: For the abandoning of four kinds of upadhi - the aggregates, defilements, volitional formations, and cords of sensual pleasure (khandh' upadhi kiles' upadhi abhisankhaar' upadhi kaamagu.n' upadhi). note 675: MA: The ordinary man, the stream-enterer, the once- returner, and the non-returner can all be included under the first category, the non-returner because the craving for being still exists in him and thus at times he can delight in thoughts of worldly enjoyment. The same four can be included in the second category, the ordinary man because he may suppress arisendefilements, arouse energy, develop insight, and eradicate defilements by attaining the supramundane path. note 676: This type is distinguished from the previous type only by his sluggishness in arousing mindfulness to abandon arisen defilements. note 677: This is the arahant, who alone has eradicated all the fetters. "Udayin, there are these four types of people to be found existing in the world. Which four? [note 673] There is the case where a certain person is practicing for the abandoning & relinquishing of acquisitions. [note 674] As he is practicing for the abandoning & relinquishing of acquisitions, memories & resolves associated with acquisitions assail him. He acquiesces to them. He does not abandon them, destroy them, dispel them, or wipe them out of existence. I tell you, Udayin, that this sort of person is fettered, not unfettered. Why is that? Because I have known the diversity of faculties with regard to this type of person. "Then there is the case where a certain person practicing for the abandoning & relinquishing of acquisitions. As he is practicing for the abandoning & relinquishing of acquisitions, memories & resolves associated with acquisitions assail him. He does not acquiesce to them. He abandons them, destroys them, dispels them, & wipes them out of existence. I tell you, Udayin, that this sort of person is fettered, not unfettered. Why is that? Because I have known the diversity of faculties with regard to this type of person. [note 675] "Then there is the case where a certain person is practicing for the abandoning & relinquishing of acquisitions. As he is practicing for the abandoning & relinquishing of acquisitions, then -- from time to time, owing to lapses in mindfulness -- he is assailed by memories & resolves associated with acquisitions. Slow is the arising of his mindfulness, but then he quickly abandons [those memories & resolves], destroys them, dispels them, & wipes them out of existence. [note 676] Just as when two or three drops of water fall onto an iron pan heated all day: Slow is the falling of the drops of water, but they quickly vanish & disappear. In the same way, there is the case where a certain person is practicing for the abandoning & relinquishing of acquisitions. As he is practicing for the abandoning & relinquishing of acquisitions, then -- from time to time, owing to lapses in mindfulness -- he is assailed by memories & resolves associated with acquisitions. Slow is the arising of his mindfulness, but then he quickly abandons [those memories & resolves], destroys them, dispels them, & wipes them out of existence. I tell you, Udayin, that this sort of person is fettered, not unfettered. Why is that? Because I have known the diversity of faculties with regard to this type of person. "Then there is the case where a certain person, realizing that acquisitions are the root of suffering & stress, is without acquisitions, released in the ending of acquisitions. I tell you, Udayin, that this sort of person is unfettered, not fettered.[note 677] Why is that? Because I have known the diversity of faculties with regard to this type of person. "There are these four types of people to be found existing in the world. (end passage) > > Questions: > > Does this sutta's "4 types of person" represent a progress from > unskillful behaviour to skillful behaviour. It seems to me that it > does. > I see myself now as vacillating between being the first kind of > person, who tolerates acquisition of new unwholesome accumulations > and the second kind of person, who takes action to "wipe them out of > existence." It's interesting that the second kind of person remains > fettered despite taking action against acquisitions. > > I think the third kind of person depticted here has developed > satipatthana to the extent that skillful response arises immediately > in response to "lapses in mindfulness" without any need for taking > action intentionally. The "iron pan heated all day" would be the mind > conditioned by proper reflection on dhamma teachings, and discussion > with dhamma friends, and most importantly cultivation of > satipatthana - though I haven't understood yet just how one goes > about cultivating satipatthana. > And then the 4th kind of person " realizing that acquisitions are > the root of suffering & stress" has right understanding to the point > that there are no more "lapses in mindfulness." I would guess that > you experienced practitioners are in the third category, and aiming > for the 4th. > > Do you see that kind of progression laid out in this sutta, or am > I oversimplifying it? > Thanks in advance for any feedback. > > Metta > Phil 31771 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sat Mar 27, 2004 0:47pm Subject: Question about kamma and vipaka Dear Group, In counselling sessions, one is often faced with questions which usually become more disturbing 'after the event'. During the session, the well-being of the client is the main focus and the condition for the way things flow, but afterwards, mulling over what happened and what could have been done better, questions begin to arise. However, for a buddhist, peer support or clincial supervision from colleagues with Christian-Western worldviews may be (on some issues) blocked by lack of compatible understanding. An example: A physically tall strong and healthy young man, father of two, of appprox. 28-30 years attended the busy Emergency Dept. seeking admission, hearing voices, relationship breakdown. Known history of schizopherenia, violence, jail admissions, drug use. Assessed by Psych. Reg. but denied suicidality. Left alone, briefly, in cubicle; found later, hanging - having used back pack strap and cubicle rail. Energetically re-suscitated. Body continues alive, but no possibility of ever regaining consciousness. Prognosis - could develop and die from pneumonia soon, but could live in vegetative state for 40 years or more. Transferred to ward. Next-of-kin notified. I receive referral and see mother for support in his room, she stays and sleeps next to his bed. After discussion with staff, she comes to the decision to withdraw oxygen, not offer anti-biotics, withdraw tube feeding, and requests a "not for resuscitation" order. But still ... he lives. The mother, a fundamentalist Christian, implores her loving god to take him, and talks to her son, continually giving him permission 'to go'. But still ... he lives. Her suffering is intense. The burden of memories, the 'if-onlys' of his turbulent life, the burden of decisions. I wonder about all of us, our kamma and vipaka. I wonder to myself how she will feel as he begins to lose weight. I wonder to myself - for a buddhist, is 'not saving', killing? What is the kamma of those who advise the withdrawal of life support or protection measures? Or offer approval and support to those who have made the decisions? metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- 31772 From: htootintnaing Date: Sat Mar 27, 2004 1:26pm Subject: [dsg] Re: charact. of rupas, Htoo --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: Dear Htoo, Utu is also translated as season, which is not so clear to me. When I think of temperature, I mean heat or cold. That is why all these terms have to be explained in the context, preferably with Pali. No translation is adequate.The element of heat is better. Nina. >op 26-03-2004 14:07 schreef htootintnaing op htootintnaing@y...: > Thank you very much for your extensive explanation. But temperature ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Nina, Thanks for your answer. I got it. Yes season is a bit inaccurate. The element tejo would be more appropriate. When I read dhamma, I used to read in three portions. The first is in Pali, then Pali with translation, and the third is pure translation for easy reading. In this way the origional taste has not change. But when pure translation are read, sometime I became confused. That is why I use Pali mixed with simple words. Thanks for your time and kind answer. With respect, Htoo Naing P.S: I have answered the questions in your Abhidhamma writing at DSList. If I was wrong let me know. Thanks. 31773 From: Philip Date: Sat Mar 27, 2004 1:33pm Subject: Re: Abandoning and relinquishing Thank you Christine. The notes were very helpful. They helped me realize that I had misread the third category, adn thought that it was unfettered. It's interesting how I read sutta hoping to find things that support my self-generated theories, and end up misunderstanding! Yes another reason to be grateful for having found this group. BTW, do these notes come from Bhikkhu Bodhi's collection of AN that is available in book form, or are they available online anywhere? The Finance Minister has banned the purchase of books. :) and :( both apply. Metta, Phil --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Hello Philip, > > Bhikkhu Bodhi says in this sutta La.tukikopama Sutta 'The Simile of > the Quail' the Buddha drives home the importance of abandoning all > fetters, no matter how harmless and trifling they may seem. > > I have inserted Bhikkhu Bodhi's explanatory notes numbers 673, 674, > 675, 676, and 677 into the text you provided. Hope it is of > assistance, and that others may give answers to your questions. > > 31774 From: htootintnaing Date: Sat Mar 27, 2004 1:42pm Subject: Re: Question about kamma and vipaka --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" wrote: Dear Group, In counselling sessions,... What is the kamma of those who advise the withdrawal of life support or protection measures? Or offer approval and support to those who have made the decisions? metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I have to refer to smell thief here. The action is at the time of decision. That will not be the same from a person to another as they will have different level of knowledge and background. I mention smell thief here. Becuase it is just a reminder for already pure bhikkhu. The water in the ocean will not change a lot by adding a teaspoonful of dirty thing. But very pure water in a small glass will be much contaminated by adding just one teaspoonful of impure things. If the decision maker is just an ordinary person, it will not much matter as the brain is dead even though the body is alive. This may sound like avinnanaka being even though we may not be sure because there was some record that arose from coma, I think. So the kamma at the time of decision will depend on how he or she decided in the context. The worse thing is thinking again that is kukkucca which is akusala citta that will lead to rebirth in lower realm. With Metta, Htoo Naing 31775 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Sat Mar 27, 2004 3:10pm Subject: Recognizing the Dhamma - 6. Seclusion(§ 6.3.) § 6.3. Now at that time a large number of monks, after the meal, on returning from their alms round, had gathered at the meeting hall and were engaged in many kinds of bestial topics of conversation: conversation about kings, robbers, & ministers of state; armies, alarms, & battles; food & drink; clothing, furniture, garlands, & scents; relatives; vehicles; villages, towns, cities, the countryside; women & heroes; the gossip of the street & the well; tales of the dead; tales of diversity, the creation of the world & of the sea; talk of whether things exist or not. Then the Blessed One, emerging from his seclusion in the late afternoon, went to the meeting hall and, on arrival, sat down on a seat made ready. As he was sitting there, he addressed the monks: "For what topic of conversation are you gathered together here? In the midst of what topic of conversation have you been interrupted?" "Just now, lord, after the meal, on returning from our alms round, we gathered at the meeting hall and got engaged in many kinds of bestial topics of conversation: conversation about kings, robbers, & ministers of state... tales of diversity, the creation of the world & of the sea; talk of whether things exist or not." "It isn't right, monks, that sons of good families, on having gone forth out of faith from home to the homeless life, should get engaged in such topics of conversation, i.e., conversation about kings, robbers, & ministers of state... talk of whether things exist or not. "There are these ten topics of [proper] conversation. Which ten? Talk on modesty, on contentment, on seclusion, on non-entanglement, on arousing persistence, on virtue, on concentration, on discernment, on release, and on the knowledge & vision of release. These are the ten topics of conversation. If you were to engage repeatedly in these ten topics of conversation, you would outshine even the sun & moon, so mighty, so powerful -- to say nothing of the wanderers of other sects." [AN X.69] http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/study/recognizing.html#seclusion 31776 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Sat Mar 27, 2004 3:15pm Subject: Re: Recognizing the Dhamma - 6. Seclusion(§ 6.3.) Hi all, Talk on seclusion is one of the ten topics of [proper] conversation. I find the passage a good reminder. Metta, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "yu_zhonghao" wrote: > § 6.3. > Now at that time a large number of monks, after the meal, on > returning from their alms round, had gathered at the meeting hall > and were engaged in many kinds of bestial topics of conversation: > conversation about kings, robbers, & ministers of state; armies, > alarms, & battles; food & drink; clothing, furniture, garlands, & > scents; relatives; vehicles; villages, towns, cities, the > countryside; women & heroes; the gossip of the street & the well; > tales of the dead; tales of diversity, the creation of the world & > of the sea; talk of whether things exist or not. > Then the Blessed One, emerging from his seclusion in the late > afternoon, went to the meeting hall and, on arrival, sat down on a > seat made ready. As he was sitting there, he addressed the > monks: "For what topic of conversation are you gathered together > here? In the midst of what topic of conversation have you been > interrupted?" > > "Just now, lord, after the meal, on returning from our alms round, > we gathered at the meeting hall and got engaged in many kinds of > bestial topics of conversation: conversation about kings, robbers, & > ministers of state... tales of diversity, the creation of the world > & of the sea; talk of whether things exist or not." > > "It isn't right, monks, that sons of good families, on having gone > forth out of faith from home to the homeless life, should get > engaged in such topics of conversation, i.e., conversation about > kings, robbers, & ministers of state... talk of whether things exist > or not. > > "There are these ten topics of [proper] conversation. Which ten? > Talk on modesty, on contentment, on seclusion, on non- entanglement, > on arousing persistence, on virtue, on concentration, on > discernment, on release, and on the knowledge & vision of release. > These are the ten topics of conversation. If you were to engage > repeatedly in these ten topics of conversation, you would outshine > even the sun & moon, so mighty, so powerful -- to say nothing of the > wanderers of other sects." > > > [AN X.69] > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/study/recognizing.html#seclusion 31777 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Mar 27, 2004 3:29pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Robber Guests (was Re: new pages Phil Although I didn't realise it at the time, the analogy of the robber-guests is from the texts. Knowing that, it might be an idea to check the original also (instead of relying solely on my re-telling of a re-telling ;-)). Not that discussion on your post need wait until then of course. Can anyone give us the reference for the original, please (are you there, Mike?). Jon --- Philip wrote: > Hello all. Browsing about in the posts from way back when, came across this. I appreciate this metaphor of the robber-guest. I would like to think about it more, but will send it along now as a way of marking it for future consideration. We generally think of visitors as being people. But the objects that appear through the different sense-doors can be regarded as visitors, too. When we see a sight or hear a sound, the sight or sound is a guest. Every sense-door object is a guest of the doorway (eye, ear, nose, tongue or body-sense) through which it appears, for just the shortest moment before it falls away. There are welcome guests and unwelcome guests. If the guests are favourite relatives or friends, we await their arrival and we find their company enjoyable. However, if the guests were robbers, we would not welcome them. Of course, the objects that appear through the sense-doors are inanimate with no malice for anyone. But they can still be a robber or a friend. When pleasant guests arrive at the sense-door, we take pleasure in the sight, sound, smell, taste or bodily contact. At that moment the robber is there because the pleasure and attachment which arise are akusala- dhamma (unwholesome realities), and akusala-dhamma is nobody's friend. On the other hand, kusala-dhamma (wholesome realities) are like a close relative or friend that is a benefactor in all circumstances. The unwholesome consciousness which is associated with the robbers at the sense-doors is itself the cause for more robber-guests in the future, while wholesome consciousness is like a relative or friend, and is the cause for future visits of relatives and friends as well. We should know the characteristics of the different moments of consciousness (citta): akusala-citta is harmful, like a robber, not a friend. 31778 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Sat Mar 27, 2004 4:27pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Recognizing the Dhamma - 5. Contentment ( § 5.6.) Hi Nina, Thank you for this message on Peter Masefield's tranl of Co. I feel that following two passages illustrate the state of discontent and the state of content: "Before, when I was a householder, maintaining the bliss of kingship, I had guards posted within and without the royal apartments, within and without the city, within and without the countryside. But even though I was thus guarded, thus protected, I dwelled in fear -- agitated, distrustful, and afraid. But now, on going alone to a forest, to the foot of a tree, or to an empty dwelling, I dwell without fear, unagitated, confident, and unafraid -- unconcerned, unruffled, my wants satisfied, with my mind like a wild deer. It occurs to me that: Being discontent, one dwells in fear -- agitated, distrustful, and afraid. Being content, one dwells without fear, unagitated, confident, and unafraid -- unconcerned, unruffled. Metta, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > Dear Victor, > Thank you very much. I have Peter Masefield's transl of Co, I, p. 347. See > below. [snip] > fruition-attainment. > Nina. 31779 From: Date: Sat Mar 27, 2004 4:48pm Subject: Re: [dsg] BB4 - Space Hi Sarah, In Vism. XIV 73 B. ~Nanamoli makes a parenthetical clarification in his translation to the effect that unproduced rupas are conceptual. That is to say "matter as delimitation...alteration...and characteristic". In regard to delimitation or space it would seem necessary that there be an aggregate of tangible data in order for there to be something delimited. So the question is, is an apparent aggregate a concept? Using a strict interpretation of concept as a word and its meaning, I would say no. I was going to introduce this idea when we get to the characteristics of the tangible data base in Vism. XIV 76 as regards a touched shape, but it applies here too. I think the easiest way to think about this is to analyze the appearance of movement. Movement, shape, and delimitation are all appearances, whether visual or otherwise, that arise due to the linking of sequential related arisings. Can we say that these appearances are actually interpretations designated as nonconceptual moha and amoha (wrong and right understanding)? If so, I think we could quite accurately call them formations (sankhara). As such, even right understanding is a formation and even wrong understanding is a reality. Supposing someone, the Buddha maybe, could experience a single tangible datum, that datum would still be a formation in its singularity. And an illusion is still a real illusion even though the erroneously understood object doesn't exist. If this is agreeable we could say space is between concept and ultimate reality as an interpretive consciousness formation, aka appearance. Does abhidhamma support this? How does abhidhamma analyze the appearance of formations or aggregates? Larry 31780 From: dharmajim Date: Sat Mar 27, 2004 5:28pm Subject: Bhikkhu Bodhi's Editions Greetings: I have been participating in a Sutta study group that has been ongoing for four years now. We have been spending a year on the Middle Length Discourses, using Bhikkhu Bodhi's translation. At our last meeting, one person was reading a passage, and others in the group found that their version differed (it was Sutta 106). The differences were intriguing. I was not aware of these kinds of revisions. Does anyone have a reference that would compare usages in the first and subsequent editions? Is there an interview somewhere with Bhikkhu Bodhi regarding this? Thanks, Dharmajim 31781 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sat Mar 27, 2004 7:45pm Subject: Re: Bhikkhu Bodhi's Editions Hello Jim, Philip and all, Jim - I didn't know BB had gone to reprints. Do you know what the latest edition is? No doubt there is a revision and tidying up before a reprint is done - it's be good to know more. Philip - I find it of inestimable value to have hard copies of Bhikkhu Bodhi's and Bhikkhu Nanamoli's translations of the Majjhima Nikaya "Middle Length Discourses of the Buddha: A New translation of the Majjhima Nikaya", and Bhikkhu Bodhi's "The Connected Discourses of the Buddha: A New Translation of the Samyutta Nikaya". He also has a small Anthology of some of the Suttas from the Anguttara Nikaya entitled 'Numerical Discourses of the Buddha' (330 pages). Check on Amazon.com - at least you (and the Finance Minister) will know how much your savings target is. :-) Bhikkhu Bodhi's translations are not on the Internet (an occasional sutta is) - but his are the best translations by a long way, in my opinion, for accuracy, beauty, readability, and footnotes/explanations. But below are some links to others translations of bits 'n pieces of the Canon. Some mirror ATI, but there is also a little variety from other translators. I've given some Intratext links - so for a little on the intratext format, see: http://www.intratext.com/Aiuto/ENG/ Thanissaro Bhikkhu doesn't usually give as many explanations or foot notes as BB - sometimes he writes an introduction to a sutta. Click on Pali Canon: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ Majjhima Nikaya (intratext links) http://www.intratext.com/X/ENG0234.HTM Some translations by Maurice Walshe of the Digha Nikaya (not all) are at: http://www.metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/1Digha-Nikaya/index.html Sister Upalavanna's translations of the Majjhima (accurate but not graceful) are at: http://www.budsas.org/ebud/majjhima/index.htm And Sister Upalavanna's trans. of the Anguttara Nikaya are at: http://www.metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/4Anguttara- Nikaya/index.html Dhammapadapali with translations by Ven Buddharakkhita and Ven Narada are at: http://tinyurl.com/ysf8d Dhammapada by F. Max Muller (intratext links): http://www.intratext.com/X/ENG0075.HTM Dhammapada by Ven. Buddharakkhita (intratext links) http://www.intratext.com/X/ENG0231.HTM Dhammapada by Thanissaro Bhikkhu (intratext links) http://www.intratext.com/y/ENG0232.HTM Khuddakapatha (intratext links) http://www.intratext.com/y/ENG0356.HTM Itivutaka (intratext links) http://www.intratext.com/y/ENG0233.HTM Sutta Nipata http://tinyurl.com/3b829 Vinaya http://www.vipassana.com/canon/vinaya/index.php http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/modern/thanissaro/bmc1/intro.html Hope the links work :-) metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "dharmajim" wrote: > Greetings: > > I have been participating in a Sutta study group that has been > ongoing for four years now. We have been spending a year on the > Middle Length Discourses, using Bhikkhu Bodhi's translation. At our > last meeting, one person was reading a passage, and others in the > group found that their version differed (it was Sutta 106). The > differences were intriguing. I was not aware of these kinds of > revisions. Does anyone have a reference that would compare usages > in the first and subsequent editions? Is there an interview > somewhere with Bhikkhu Bodhi regarding this? > > Thanks, > > Dharmajim 31782 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sat Mar 27, 2004 8:53pm Subject: Re: [dsg] BB4 - Space Dear Sarah, I appreciate B.B.'s attitude and openmindedness to reconsider. This is very good of him. I am going to write a little on what we are doing here with the study of Vis and Tiika to the Pali yahoo list. The reason was a remark about taking the Co with a grain of salt. I shall frwd it here too. But I need to spend some time on this. Nina. op 27-03-2004 06:48 schreef Sarah op sarahdhhk@y...: > S:If Mike, KenO or anyone else has anything further to add, please do so. > I think we can all appreciate B.Bodhi's willingness to reconsider and > amend any perceived errors. 31783 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sat Mar 27, 2004 8:53pm Subject: Re: [dsg] 5. Contentment (§ 5.6.)correction Dear Victor, A correction and addition. I wrote: Non-returners and arahats who have developed jhana and vipassana can, after the process during which enlightenment is attained, have many moments of fruitionconsciousness experiencing nibbana. This is phala-samapatti, fruition-attainment. I have to correct: all those who have attained enlightenment can, after the process during which enlightenment is attained, have many moments of fruitionconsciousness experiencing nibbana during their life. This is phala-samapatti, fruition-attainment. As to cessation , nirodha samapatti, this is the suspension of all mental activity. Non-returners and arahats who have developed all stages of rupajhana and arupajhana can, after they have attained the state of neither perception-nor-nonperception, attain cessation. But they must have made the necessary preprations (Vis. XXIII). Nina. 31784 From: Jeffrey Brooks Date: Sat Mar 27, 2004 7:32pm Subject: Wisdom is knowing when to withdraw from the field Today insight, born of absorption, provided me with the wisdom of knowing when to withdraw from the field of dialog. Hello Suan, and thank-you for continuing this inquiry into insight (vipassana) and absorption (jhana). Your point that one should of course take any quote into the greater context of the teaching is very well spoken. However, I believe leaving the discourses of the Buddha for the Dhammapada, seems unproductive and a rather desperate reach. While I respect the degree of reverence that many people have for this document, I do not however believe the Dhammapada represents the definitive source of the Buddha's teaching as do the Nikayas. I believe it seems reasonable to accept the Nikayas as that definitive source, not the Dhammapada. I would however accept the Dhammapada, Vinaya or Abhidhamma as secondary supporting materials for the primary material in the discourses of the Buddha (Sutta Pitaka). The Dhammapada is actually an excellent example of how the meaning of a particular document can be shifted rather radically by the translator. Since it has been translated by many more people than any single volume of the Nikayas, then if one were to examine 5 different translations of the particular section of the Dhammapada that you have chosen, I am confident that one would find a rather broad range in meaning. This of course implies the same thing can be true for the larger document of the discourses of the Buddha (Sutta Pitaka) as well. The final word however rests in the subjective world of our own meditation practice, where we can only prove to ourselves whether any of the concepts, belief or translated quotes of the Buddha are valid. I have proven to myself in my daily meditation practice that insight (vipassana) emerges from absorption. I can only hope that you have proven your premise that one must leave absorption (jhana) to gain insight (vipassana). In conclusion I believe that we are left with two situations here. First you believe what you believe and you have shown no interest in changing your beliefs. I have provided you with what I have found to be true from my daily practice regimen, and I have provided you with ample support for those findings in the form of quotes from the discourses of the Buddha. I believe at this point that we should thank each other for providing an interesting and stimulating conversation. And, leave the field of dialog before we utterly shame ourselves through sheer stubbornness. Kindest of regards, Jeff Brooks -------------------------- Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2004 14:41:06 -0000 From: "abhidhammika" Subject: Do Vipassanaa As The Buddha In Dhammapada Verse 373 And 374 Teaches Us Dear Sarah, Nina, Jon, Mike Niece and Dhamma friends, How are you? The following is my response to Jeffery Brooks's selective omissions of Dhammapada Verse 373 and Verse 374 that teaches Vipassanaa meditation. Please enjoy it! :-) Suan <....> 31785 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sun Mar 28, 2004 1:03am Subject: Re: Wisdom is knowing when to withdraw from the field Hello Jeffrey, I don't understand why you are panning the Dhammapada now - you were the one who used the quote initially (only two days ago) as support for your ideas. See at the top and foot of: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/31737 metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jeffrey Brooks wrote: > Today insight, born of absorption, provided me with > the wisdom of knowing when to withdraw from the field > of dialog. > > Hello Suan, and thank-you for continuing this inquiry > into insight (vipassana) and absorption (jhana). Your > point that one should of course take any quote into > the greater context of the teaching is very well > spoken. However, I believe leaving the discourses of > the Buddha for the Dhammapada, seems unproductive and > a rather desperate reach. > > While I respect the degree of reverence that many > people have for this document, I do not however > believe the Dhammapada represents the definitive > source of the Buddha's teaching as do the Nikayas. I > believe it seems reasonable to accept the Nikayas as > that definitive source, not the Dhammapada. I would > however accept the Dhammapada, Vinaya or Abhidhamma as > secondary supporting materials for the primary > material in the discourses of the Buddha (Sutta > Pitaka). > > The Dhammapada is actually an excellent example of how > the meaning of a particular document can be shifted > rather radically by the translator. Since it has been > translated by many more people than any single volume > of the Nikayas, then if one were to examine 5 > different translations of the particular section of > the Dhammapada that you have chosen, I am confident > that one would find a rather broad range in meaning. > This of course implies the same thing can be true for > the larger document of the discourses of the Buddha > (Sutta Pitaka) as well. > 31786 From: Sarah Date: Sun Mar 28, 2004 1:49am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:_Recognizing_the_Dhamma_-_5._Contentment_(§_5.1.) Hi Victor, --- yu_zhonghao wrote: > Hi all, > > I think that being unhappy is often a result of being discontent, > not being content with the material possession one has. .... In a wider sense still, I think we can say that being discontent, unhappy and having many wishes is on account of clinging to all that appears through the senses. I just remembered that the same phrases of fewness of wishes (appicchaata) and contentment (santu.t.thi) are used in this quote I gave before: ***** Sammohavinodani (Dispeller of Delusion, PTS) 846: “ ‘Herein, what is sense-desire clinging? That which in sense-desires is lust for sense-desires, greed for sense-desires, delight in sense-desires, craving for sense-desires, love of sense-desires, fever of sense-desires, infatuation with sense-desires, cleaving to sense-desires - this is called sense-desire clinging’ (Dhs 1214). Firmness of craving is a name for subsequent craving that has become firm owing to previous craving, which acts as its decisive support condition. But some have said: ‘Craving is the aspiring to an object that one has not yet reached, like a thief’s stretching out his hand in the dark; clinging is the grasping of an object that one has reached, like the thief’s grasping the goods. These states are opposed to *fewness of wishes (appicchaata)* and *contentment (santu.t.thi)*. Hence they are the root of the suffering due to seeking and guarding [of property]’ (see Dii58f). The remaining three kinds of clinging are in brief simply [wrong] view.” ***** Note the reference here to Dii58f here is back to the Mahanidana sutta, so it links with our other ‘D.O. corner' too: “Thus, Ananda, in dependence upon feeling there is craving; in dependence upon craving there is pursuit; in dependence upon pursuit there is gain; in dependence upon gain there is decision-making; in dependence upon decision-making there is desire and lust; in dependence upon desire and lust there is attachment; in dependence upon attachment there is possessiveness; in dependence upon possessiveness there is stinginess; in dependence upon stinginess there is safe-guardig; and because of safguarding, various evil unwholesome phenomena originate - the taking up of clubs and weapons, conflicts, quarrels, and disputes, insulting speech, slander and falsehoods.” ***** Metta, Sarah ===== 31787 From: Sarah Date: Sun Mar 28, 2004 2:37am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Recognizing the Dhamma - The Eight Principles Hi Victor & All, The same Gotami sutta is also quoted and elaborated on in the Sammohavinodanii (Dispeller) under Classification of the Jhanas, 1595f. Let me give a small part of it: “ ‘And those things, Gotamii, of which you may know: “These things lead to lust, not to the fading away of lust; they lead to fettering, not to unfettering; they lead to amassing, not to dispersal; they led to clinging, not to relinquishment [footnote: omitted in Vinii and Aiv*]; they lead to greatness of wishes, not to fewness of wishes; they lead to discontent, not to contentment; they lead to company, not to seclusion; they lead to idleness, no to energy; they lead to one’s being difficult to support, not to one’s being easy to support,” you may remember, Gotamii, without reserve, that this is not the Law, this is not the Discipline, this is not the Master’s Dispensation. And those things, Gotamii, of which you may know: “These things lead to the fading of lust, not to lust........”.....this is the Law, this is the Discipline, this is the Master’s Dispensation (A iv 280-1; Vin ii 258-9; cf Aiv 143), in this Buddha Word, in this Buddha Life of Purity, in this Buddha Master’s Dispensation. “Furthermore, this whole Dispensation called the three trainings, owing to being viewed by the Blessed One, owing to having Right View as its condition, owing to having Right View as its precursor, is “view”; through the Blessed One’s tolerating, it is “tolerance”; through his choosing, it is “choice” (ruci); through his taking, it is “creed”. It keeps (dhaareti) the doer of it from falling into the states of woe, thus it is Law (dhamma); it also puts away (vineti) what partakes of the defiled, thus it is Discipline (vinaya); it is Law and that is Discipline, thus it is Law and Discipline.” If you find it interesting, I can add more. Metta, Sarah * possibly the reason for confusion in my earlier message. ========= 31788 From: sarahdhhk Date: Sun Mar 28, 2004 3:18am Subject: Re: An Instance of the Role of Volition Hi Howard, You raised an interesting quote which I had meant to look at earlier: --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, all - > > At http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/digha/dn12.html, one can read: > _________________________ > (Insight Knowledge) > "With his mind thus concentrated, purified, & bright, unblemished, free from > defects, pliant, malleable, steady, & attained to imperturbability, he directs > and inclines it to knowledge & vision. ... > ------------------------------------------- .... S:I checked the Pali phrase for the last few words: `~naa.nadassanaya (knowledge & vision) citta'n abhiniiharati (directs, aspires) abhininnameti' .... > This can likewise be found in the Kevatta sutta at the link > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/digha/dn11.html, and also at the link > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/digha/dn02.html > > ============================ > We see here how, from the base of the 4th jhana, it is possible for > one to direct and incline the concentrated mind. To direct and incline the mind > is to take volitional action. It is particularly easy to effectively do this > when the hindrances have been suppressed and the mind is fully equanimous. .... S:I think we'd have to say depending on the accumulated wisdom (vipassana) and other eightfold path factors. No self to direct and as we know, volitional action by itself won't bring the desired results. Without the development of satipatthana, jhanas will not be a condition for insight. Earlier, for example in the Saama~n~naphala Sutta which also has these lines and which I'm looking at, we read the sections on `Restraint of the Sense Faculties', `Mindfulness and clear Comoprehension' etc. Without the highly developed awareness and wisdom involved, there would be no enlightenment with or without jhana attainment as I see it. Maybe you or others have further comments. Metta, Sarah ===== 31789 From: Ken O Date: Sun Mar 28, 2004 4:17am Subject: Re: [dsg] BB4 - Space Hi Sarah I have immerse respect for B Bodhi but I like to make a presentation was Abdhidhamma after the Nikayas. To me, let see whether there are pieces of Abdhidhamma in the Nikayas Also SN ii.95 “Just as a monkey faring through the dense forest catches one bough, and, letting it go, catches another, and then another, even so bhikkhus, with what is called thought, or mind , or consciousness, by day as by night, one arises when another perishes.” It quotes AN i.10 : “I consider, bhikkhus, that there is no phenomenon that comes and goes so quickly as mind. It is not easy to find a simile to show how quickly mind comes and goes.” - The mind is continuous, sequential and very fast are seldom taught in other suttas and it is highly emphasis in the Abdhidhamma Then again in this sutta <<"If friends, internally eye is intact but no external form comes into range, and there is no corresponding [conscious] engagement, then there is no manifestation of the corresponding class of consciousness. If internally the eye is intact and external forms come into its range, but there is no corresponding [conscious] engagement, then there is no manifestation of the corresponding class of consciousness. But when internally the eye is intact and external forms come into its range and there is the corresponding [conscious] engagement, then there is the manifestation of the corresponding class of consciousness.">> - this sutta indicates the existence of the five door adverting citta is seldom taught in other sutta but it is also part of Abdhidhamma A translation of the Diigha Nikaaya by Maurice Walshe. The full DN 9.53 is "So too, whenever the gross acquired self is present, we do not speak of the mind-made or formless acquired self; whenever the mind-made acquired self is present, we do not speak of the gross or formless acquired self; whenever the formless acquired self is present, we do not speak of the gross acquired self or the mind-made acquired self, we speak of the formless acquired self. But, Citta, these are merely names, expressions, turns of speech designations in common use in the world, which the Tathaagata uses without misapprehending them.' [n. 224] Devatasamyutta, 25 (5) The Arahant “If a bhikkhu is an arahant, Consummate, with taints destroyed, One who bears his final body, Would he still say, ‘I speak’? And would he say, ‘They speak to me’?” “If a bhikkhu is an arahant, Consummate, with taints destroyed, One who bears his final body, He might still say, ‘I speak.’ And hemight say, ‘They speak to me.’ Skilful, knowing the world’s parlance, He uses such terms as mere expressions.” -- then we have conventional and ultimate reality. Ultimate reality is usually the gist of Abdhidhamma while conventional is usually the gist of Sutta -- To me these are bit and pieces of Abhidhamma in the suttas, on the other side of the fence, one can say these can be part and pieces of Abhidhamma that was conceptualised during Buddha time. --- Then again we look again at one more sutta quote MN 32, Mahaagosinga Sutta para 8 <<"Here friend Sariputta, two bhikkhus engage in a talks on the Higher Dhamma* and they questions each other, and each being questioned by the other answers without foundering, and their talk rolls on in accordance with the Dhamma. That kind of bhikkhu could illuminate this Gosinga Saala-tree Wood." Then later in the same sutta we see Buddha approve of B. Moggallana. >> * - the Higher Dhamma (translated from the pali word- abhidhammakatham)- B Bodhi personal notes. <> The there arise these questions, why did the Buddha approved it if it is not of the dhamma, so in that sense it rise doubt whether it is philosophical. Even if Buddha did not teach it as some has said, his mere approval has bear a lot of weight that Abhidhamma originate during the time of Nikayas and not after it. Furthermore , it is the other chief disciple and not Ven Sariputta who said the word on higher dhamma because usually Ven Sariputta is known to be the main proponent of Abhidhamma. Just my personal thoughts. Ken O 31790 From: Ken O Date: Sun Mar 28, 2004 4:27am Subject: Why panati cannot be ayatana Hi All Just like to share with you which I have written on another list to my good dhamma friends there. Lets take a look at why panati cannot be ayatana According to The Book of Analysis (Vibhanga), 167. Therein what is ideational base? The aggregate of feeling, aggregate of preception, agregate of mental concomitants and that invisible non-impingment material quality included in the ideational base; the unconditional element (i.e. Nibbana). Panati can be object and are paccaya and I could only remember three types. Even though they are not defilements themselves, they can cause or paccaya defilements (roots etc) to arise. 1. arammana-paccaya 2. arammanadhipati-paccaya 3. arammanupanissaya-paccaya So then we look at Vibhanga again para 171 Eleven bases are roots. Ideational sometimes is a root; sometimes is not root. Ten bases are not accompanied by roots. Two bases sometimes accompanied by roots; sometimes not accompanied by roots . . . Eleven bases are not defilements. Ideational base sometimes is defilement, sometimes is not a defilement. . . . Eleven bases are not fetters. Ideational base sometimes is fetter; sometimes is not fetter. From here we can see that ideational are themselves roots, fetter and defilements whereas panati are not roots or fetter or defilements - they are causes of them. This Abdhidhamma book show that only paramatthas are dhamma ayatana and panati can only be dhamma arammana and not dhamma ayatana. There are a lot more details, I just fish out the most obvious ones. Ken O 31791 From: Philip Date: Sun Mar 28, 2004 4:42am Subject: Re: Bhikkhu Bodhi's Editions Hello Christine and Jim, and all > I find it of inestimable value to have hard copies of > Bhikkhu Bodhi's and Bhikkhu Nanamoli's translations of the Majjhima > Nikaya "Middle Length Discourses of the Buddha: A New translation of > the Majjhima Nikaya", and Bhikkhu Bodhi's "The Connected Discourses > of the Buddha: A New Translation of the Samyutta Nikaya". He also > has a small Anthology of some of the Suttas from the Anguttara Nikaya > entitled 'Numerical Discourses of the Buddha' (330 pages). Thank you for the nudge, and all the links, Christine. I hope it wasn't too much bother for you. I really appreciate your constancy, if that's the right word. I guess I mean that diligent helpfulness, of which there is so much in this group. BTW, Jim (Dharmajim) is very modest. I am itching to provide a link to the excellent sutra study group he hosts (which is currently devoted to a study of the MN) and to his extensive and insightful writing on the Buddha's teaching, but I will refrain. Please do provide a link if you'd like, Jim. I think the members of this group would appreciate your great scholarship and open- mindedness. Metta, Phil 31792 From: Date: Sun Mar 28, 2004 1:45am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: An Instance of the Role of Volition Hi, Sarah - In a message dated 3/28/04 6:19:24 AM Eastern Standard Time, sarahdhhk@y... writes: > Hi Howard, > > You raised an interesting quote which I had meant to look at > earlier: > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... > wrote: > >Hi, all - > > > >At http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/digha/dn12.html, > one can read: > >_________________________ > >(Insight Knowledge) > >"With his mind thus concentrated, purified, &bright, > unblemished, free from > >defects, pliant, malleable, steady, &attained to imperturbability, > he directs > >and inclines it to knowledge &vision. ... > >------------------------------------------- > .... > S:I checked the Pali phrase for the last few words: > `~naa.nadassanaya (knowledge &vision) citta'n abhiniiharati > (directs, aspires) abhininnameti' > .... > > This can likewise be found in the Kevatta sutta at the link > >http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/digha/dn11.html, > and also at the link > >http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/digha/dn02.html > > > >============================ > > We see here how, from the base of the 4th jhana, it is > possible for > >one to direct and incline the concentrated mind. To direct and > incline the mind > >is to take volitional action. It is particularly easy to effectively do > this > >when the hindrances have been suppressed and the mind is > fully equanimous. > .... > S:I think we'd have to say depending on the accumulated > wisdom (vipassana) and other eightfold path factors. No self to > direct and as we know, volitional action by itself won't bring the > desired results. Without the development of satipatthana, jhanas > will not be a condition for insight. > -------------------------------------------- Howard: For the arising of any dhamma the coming together of multiple conditions is a requirement. I don't dispute that. In particular, to incline the mind towards realization requires that one has either heard about the possibility of doing so, or that one has already had a glimpse of such insight. Volition/inclination is also required, together with the prior knowledge. Also required is that the hindrances all be held in check, a condition satisified in the 4th jhana. Multiple conditions are required for any event to occur. However, if knowing that multiple conditions are required to achieve something worthwhile, that should be a spur to begin working on the achieving of some of them, and never serve as a justification for giving up. Fortunately, all of us here are in the position of having heard much, of being devoted to the three jewels, and, in most cases, of having begun practice in one form or another. With regard to forms of practice, I'd like to take the liberty of copying here the content of a post of mine on another list entitled "To Merely Be Good." It doesn't deal *only* with practice, but that is a large part of it. I will add that at the end of this post. ------------------------------------------- > > Earlier, for example in the Saama~n~naphala Sutta which also > has these lines and which I'm looking at, we read the sections > on `Restraint of the Sense Faculties', `Mindfulness and clear > Comoprehension' etc. Without the highly developed awareness > and wisdom involved, there would be no enlightenment with or > without jhana attainment as I see it. > > Maybe you or others have further comments. > > Metta, > > Sarah > =============================== To Merely Be Good It seems to me that there is a wide variety of quite different "wrong views". But there is "wrong view," and there is "wrong view". Some "wrong view" is still of great value, and it is rarely crystal clear when a position is "right" or "wrong". From our perspective, a belief in a deity, for example, is wrong view, but if following such a belief leads one to moral action, lovingkindness, and possibly absorptive states, such person has done extremely well, I would say. The Buddha dealt kindly and supportively with followers of many traditions, and he encouraged followers of other traditions who wanted to switch allegiance to the Buddha to continue to support the previous teacher. Some of us interpret the Dhamma in a way that treats the jhanas as quite expendible. Others may well object that this is wrong view, and quote chapter and verse to back up that claim of the essential role of the jhanas. Some of these objectors may believe that the jhanas alone can lead to liberating wisdom, a position that others will, with much justification, see as wrong view. But mastery of jhanas *does* cultivate the mind, suppress defilements, lead to divine abidings, and transform the mind into a tool that is sharpened, and easily used in the journey towards enlightenment, and that is no small achievement! On the other hand, those who never even attempt to cultivate jhanas, still do well if they can achieve access concentration and investigate what arises from that position of strength, and they may do far better than those who give lip service to jhanas and their indispensability but do not cultivate them or much of anything else. Others may only engage in ongoing mindfulness under ordinary circumstances, but are very diligent at that, and this takes them very far. Still others may "merely" study and contemplate the Buddha's teachings, carefully observing sila, exemplifying metta in their daily lives, and they will do quite well if their studying is detailed, and their contemplation deep, devoted, and consistent. In the Hindu traditions, they would be called practitioners of gnani yoga. All this is good. There is no need to be doctrinnaire, however one interprets the doctrine. The Buddha advised against saying "This is true, and all else is false." Whatever views and practice conduce to peace, to love, and to kindness partake of "rightness". None of us is perfect. It is quite an achievement to merely be "good". With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 31793 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Mar 28, 2004 10:49am Subject: Re: [dsg] Theravada Cosmology Hi Larry, op 27-03-2004 00:46 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: There is no supramundane plane of existence. N: Right. Lokuttara maggacitta leads to the end of existence. L: Can supramundane consciousnesses with nibbana as object arise in any of > the 31 planes of existence? N: No, not in the woeful planes. And the maggacitta of the sotapanna (and phalacitta) could not arise in the arupa brahmaplanes, since there is no rupa there. When the stages of insight are developed, both nama and rupa are the objects of panna. Furthermore, we have to make more distinctions. The Non-returners are reborn in the Pure Abodes, a rupa-plane (suddhaavaasa) where they attain arahatship. L: Are the 31 planes divided into sensuous, > fine-material, and immaterial? N: But we have to make more distinctions. Four woeful planes are sensuous planes, the human plane and the lower deva planes are also sensuous planes. Then there are the rupa-brahma planes and the arupa brahma planes. In the asa~n~nasatta plane there is no nama, only rupa. In the arupa brahma planes there is no rupa, only nama. Nina. P.S. I wait with your other questions, because I have to finish the Tiika translation. 31794 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Mar 28, 2004 10:49am Subject: FW: [Pali] Re: confidence in the Commentaries. Dear all, this is frwd from the Pali study yahoo. Aan: Onderwerp: Re: [Pali] Re: confidence in the Commentaries. Dear John, Today I would like to say something about the benefit of the Commentaries. The oldest ones which are lost now were rehearsed at the great Councils. Buddhaghosa was most conscientious to edit them and translate them again into Pali. But apart from historical arguments, I would rather speak about the immense benefit of studying them. But, I speak from my limited experience with the texts. Some time ago you gave us a beautiful Sutta, John, about five things to be contemplated daily: old age, sickness, death, all that is dear is subject to change, separation, we have to receive the result of our own kamma. You said that you daily meditate on this sutta. I checked the Co I have in Thai. This does not teach anything other than the sutta, but gives additional explanations. It stresses that vipassana is taught here, and the lokuttara magga of the arahat. After reading Co and then going back to the sutta I find that we come more to the deep meaning that is contained therein. When insight is developed the impermanence of nama and rupa is directly known (but this is a long, long way) and then the truth of dukkha is penetrated: what falls away is not worth clinging to. We shall be more convinced of dukkha at this very moment. Buddhaghosa stresses page after page that the truth about the khandhas, the dhaatus, the aayatanas is taught. Repeating that vipassana is to be developed, he reminds us to be aware of them now, since they pertain to daily life. He stresses that the Buddha taught being in the cycle, va.t.ta, and being released from the cycle, viva.t.ta. We are in the cycle now, subject to dukkha. In each Sutta Abhidhamma and vipassana are implied, and people at the Buddha's time had no misunderstandings about this. But since we are further away from the Buddha's time we need the Commentaries which give us more explanations and reminders about our daily life. We are lost without the commentaries. We read in the ³Discourse on the Manifold Elements² (Middle length Sayings, no 115, P.T.S.edition) that Ånanda asked the Buddha how the monk was skilled in the elements. The Buddha first spoke about the elements as eighteenfold. We read: ³There are these eighteen elements, Ånanda: the element of eye, the element of material shape, the element of visual consciousness..." This is Abhidhamma in the sutta, and it pertains to our daily life now: visible object and eyesense are conditions for seeing. We may forget this, but realizing this will lead to understanding anatta. We read in the Commentary that for those who consider this Dhamma Discourse, all these elements appear to him, just as when someone uses a mirror, the reflection of his face clearly appears. Therefore, the Buddha said to Ånanda that this Discourse could also be remembered as the ³Mirror of Dhamma². Again, Abhidhamma and vipassana in the Sutta, and a strong reminder that the Sutta pertains to our life now, that we should not delay developing insight. In Dhamma Study Group we are studying the Visuddhimagga, Buddhaghosa's great Encyclopaedia, and its Tiika. I read Vis. in Pali and the Tiika I partly translate (no English or Thai text exists). The more I study the greater my confidence in the Co. I am glad to still have the opportunity to study these texts, grateful that they were preserved. I find that they should be studied with due respect. People today speak of controversies, but I am absolutely sure these can be solved one by one when concrete examples are given. There may be allusions to matters we do not understand today, but then we should return to the time of those ancient teachers, place ourselves in their way of explaining. If we do not understand, I feel that the fault is with us. In dsg list we study now ruupakkhandha (Vis Ch XIV), the four factors that originate rupa: kamma, citta, aahara and tejo dhaatu. All the different conditions for rupa are explained, they all cooperate to make this shortlived body function. We try to make the link to daily life all the time, otherwise study is useless. Bodily intimation and speech are rupas that play their part when we communicate. We take them for granted, but they occur because of their own conditions. We shall continue with the Vissuddhimagga, all the stages of insight up to lokuttara citta. It will take us years, but very beneficial. To conclude, I just give an example of part of the Tiika (there are due to be mistakes, I have no help) : Vi. XIV, 69.. 'Impermanence of matter' has the characteristic of complete breaking up. Its function is to make material instances subside. It is manifested as destruction and fall (cf. Dhs. 645). Its proximate cause is matter that is completely breaking up. Pali: 69. paribhedalakkha.naa ruupassa aniccataa, sa.msiidanarasaa, khayavayapaccupa.t.thaanaa, paribhijjamaanaruupapada.t.thaanaa. Tiika: Parito sabbaso ²bhijjanan²ti lakkhitabbaati paribhedalakkha.naa. The characteristic of complete breaking up should be defined as being destroyed absolutely and in every respect *. Nicca.m naama dhuva.m, ruupa.m pana kha.nabha"ngitaaya yena bha"ngena na niccanti anicca.m, so aniccassa bhaavoti aniccataa. What is lasting is called permanent, but materiality at the moment of its falling away is not lasting because of its dissolution, and thus it is impermanent, and that state of instability is impermanence. Saa pana yasmaa .thitippatta.m ruupa.m vinaasabhaavena sa.msiidantii viya hotiiti vutta.m ³sa.msiidanarasaa²ti. He said that its function is to make (material instances) subside, since this (impermanence) causes the materiality that has reached (the moments of) presence ** as it were to subside. Yasmaa ca saa ruupadhammaana.m bha"ngabhaavato khayavayaakaareneva gayhati, tasmaa vutta.m ³khayavayapaccupa.t.thaanaa²ti. And since this (impermanence) because of the state of dissolution of material phenomena should be taken by way of destruction and fall, he said that it is manifested as destruction and fall. ______ * The word meaning is partly lost in the translation. The prefix pari of paribheda, breaking up, reinforces the word. The words parito, completely and sabbaso, in every respect, are added. ** Origination, upacaya rúpa, and continuity, santati rúpa, are characteristics indicating the moments rúpa has arisen but not yet fallen away, whereas decay, jaratå rúpa, indicates the moment close to its falling away and impermanence, aniccatå rúpa, the moment of its falling away. These moments are extremely short. Thus, as soon as rupa is present it is already time for its falling away. Remark: The short definitions in the Vis. can be easily overlooked, and therefore I am glad to see the Tiika text which emphasizes more the facts of decay and impermanence occurring each moment. All rupas of the body are decaying now and they are on the way to complete destruction. This is dukkha and a grim reminder of being in the cycle of birth and death. ***** Nina. op 26-03-2004 17:24 schreef John Kelly op palistudent@y...: > Also, when I say that I do not consider the Mahaava.msa to be > Buddhist scripture, I'm using scripture in the sense of "canonical > scripture". By this definition, all the commentaries are not > scripture either, and in the same way must be taken with a grain of > salt. 31795 From: Htoo Naing Date: Sun Mar 28, 2004 0:01pm Subject: SMOKE AND TIDES SMOKE AND TIDES Rising up that mountain, nothing back but far vain, Moving mixing shaking stuff, nothing packed but null wane. Tiding up that downdrain, nothing back but far vain, Moving mixing shaking stuff, nothing smash but null drain. Liking up that sound brain, nothing back but far vain, Moving mixing shaking stuff, nothing kept but null brain. HTOO NAING --------------------------------- 31796 From: Jeffrey Brooks Date: Sun Mar 28, 2004 0:36pm Subject: One Tool Among Many One Tool Among Many The Place of Vipassana in Buddhist Practice by Thanissaro Bhikkhu Copyright © 1997 Thanissaro Bhikkhu For free distribution only. You may print copies of this work for your personal use. You may re-format and redistribute this work for use on computers and computer networks, provided that you charge no fees for its distribution or use. Otherwise, all rights reserved. What exactly is vipassana? Almost any book on early Buddhist meditation will tell you that the Buddha taught two types of meditation: samatha and vipassana. Samatha, which means tranquillity, is said to be a method fostering strong states of mental absorption, called jhana. Vipassana -- literally "clear-seeing," but more often translated as insight meditation -- is said to be a method using a modicum of tranquillity to foster moment-to-moment mindfulness of the inconstancy of events as they are directly experienced in the present. This mindfulness creates a sense of dispassion toward all events, thus leading the mind to release from suffering. These two methods are quite separate, we're told, and of the two, vipassana is the distinctive Buddhist contribution to meditative science. Other systems of practice pre-dating the Buddha also taught samatha, but the Buddha was the first to discover and teach vipassana. Although some Buddhist meditators may practice samatha meditation before turning to vipassana, samatha practice is not really necessary for the pursuit of Awakening. As a meditative tool, the vipassana method is sufficient for attaining the goal. Or so we're told. But if you look directly at the Pali discourses -- the earliest extant sources for our knowledge of the Buddha's teachings -- you'll find that although they do use the word samatha to mean tranquillity, and vipassana to mean clear-seeing, they otherwise confirm none of the received wisdom about these terms. Only rarely do they make use of the word vipassana -- a sharp contrast to their frequent use of the word jhana. When they depict the Buddha telling his disciples to go meditate, they never quote him as saying "go do vipassana," but always "go do jhana." And they never equate the word vipassana with any mindfulness techniques. In the few instances where they do mention vipassana, they almost always pair it with samatha -- not as two alternative methods, but as two qualities of mind that a person may "gain" or "be endowed with," and that should be developed together. One simile, for instance (SN XXXV.204), compares samatha and vipassana to a swift pair of messengers who enter the citadel of the body via the noble eightfold path and present their accurate report -- Unbinding, or nibbana -- to the consciousness acting as the citadel's commander. Another passage (AN X.71) recommends that anyone who wishes to put an end to mental defilement should -- in addition to perfecting the principles of moral behavior and cultivating seclusion -- be committed to samatha and endowed with vipassana. This last statement is unremarkable in itself, but the same discourse also gives the same advice to anyone who wants to master the jhanas: be committed to samatha and endowed with vipassana. This suggests that, in the eyes of those who assembled the Pali discourses, samatha, jhana, and vipassana were all part of a single path. Samatha and vipassana were used together to master jhana and then -- based on jhana -- were developed even further to give rise to the end of mental defilement and to bring release from suffering. This is a reading that finds support in other discourses as well. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/modern/thanissaro/onetool.html 31797 From: Jeffrey Brooks Date: Sun Mar 28, 2004 7:04am Subject: There is no absorption (jhana) without wisdom (panna), No wisdom without absorption Hello and thank-you for the excellent recommendation I will read the article. I understand Ven. Thanissaro Bhikkhu is about my age and he has been studying the dhamma and meditating about as long as I have. I often enjoy reading his writing and translations because I often find he is sensitive to absorption (jhana), and he seems to seek to place insight and absorption into a common perspective. Many thanks, Jeff Brooks ------------------- Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2004 02:19:37 -0000 From: "yu_zhonghao" Subject: Re: There is no absorption (jhana) without wisdom (panna), No wisdom without absorption. Hi Jeff, I would also recommend the following article by Ven. Thanissaro Bhikkhu: One Tool Among Many The Place of Vipassana in Buddhist Practice http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/modern/thanissaro/onetool.html Metta, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jeffrey Brooks wrote: [snip] > > Dhammapada Verse 372 > > Natthi jhaanam apan~n~assa, pan~n~aa natthi ajhaayato, > Yamhi jhaanan~ ca pan~n~an~ ca sa ve nibbaanasantike. > > "There is no absorption (jhana) without wisdom > (panna), > No wisdom without absorption. > One who is close to emancipation (nibbana/nirvana) > has both wisdom and absorption." > > Kindest regards, > > Jeff Brooks 31798 From: connie Date: Sun Mar 28, 2004 1:21pm Subject: Re: Robber Guests Hi Jon, Phil, Mike, All ~ It might be from Ven. Maha Kaccana's Mahaniddesa.... see http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/khuddaka/suttanipata/index.html section IV. Atthaka Vagga: <1. Although these poems were originally composed for an audience of wandering, homeless monks, they offer valuable lessons for lay people as well. Even the passages referring directly to the homeless life can be read as symbolic of a state of mind. Ven. Maha Kaccana's commentary, mentioned above, shows that this has been done ever since canonical times. Addressing a lay person, and commenting on a verse describing the behavior of a sage who has abandoned home and society, he interprets "home" as the khandhas and "society" as sense impressions. Thus in his hands the verse develops an internal meaning that lay people can apply to their lives without necessarily leaving their external home and society. Other verses in the poems can be interpreted in similar ways. > peace, connie Phil Although I didn't realise it at the time, the analogy of the robber-guests is from the texts. Knowing that, it might be an idea to check the original also (instead of relying solely on my re-telling of a re-telling ;-)). Not that discussion on your post need wait until then of course. Can anyone give us the reference for the original, please (are you there, Mike?). Jon --- Philip wrote: > Hello all. Browsing about in the posts from way back when, came across this. I appreciate this metaphor of the robber-guest. I would like to think about it more, but will send it along now as a way of marking it for future consideration. We generally think of visitors as being people. But the objects that appear through the different sense-doors can be regarded as visitors, too. When we see a sight or hear a sound, the sight or sound is a guest. Every sense-door object is a guest of the doorway (eye, ear, nose, tongue or body-sense) through which it appears, for just the shortest moment before it falls away. There are welcome guests and unwelcome guests. If the guests are favourite relatives or friends, we await their arrival and we find their company enjoyable. However, if the guests were robbers, we would not welcome them. Of course, the objects that appear through the sense-doors are inanimate with no malice for anyone. But they can still be a robber or a friend. When pleasant guests arrive at the sense-door, we take pleasure in the sight, sound, smell, taste or bodily contact. At that moment the robber is there because the pleasure and attachment which arise are akusala- dhamma (unwholesome realities), and akusala-dhamma is nobody's friend. On the other hand, kusala-dhamma (wholesome realities) are like a close relative or friend that is a benefactor in all circumstances. The unwholesome consciousness which is associated with the robbers at the sense-doors is itself the cause for more robber-guests in the future, while wholesome consciousness is like a relative or friend, and is the cause for future visits of relatives and friends as well. We should know the characteristics of the different moments of consciousness (citta): akusala-citta is harmful, like a robber, not a friend. 31799 From: Philip Date: Sun Mar 28, 2004 4:29pm Subject: Re: There is no absorption (jhana) without wisdom (panna), No wisdom without absorption Hello Jeff >I understand Ven. Thanissaro >Bhikkhu is about my age and he has been studying the >dhamma and meditating about as long as I have. For a man of such experience, you certainly are interested in chronology! I've only seen your posts for 2 months or so, but I've already heard many times that you have practiced for 30 years. By your quantitative approach, that makes you 15-20 times more insightful than me, so I should feel very grateful to be in your presence. It seems unusual for a Buddhist to think in terms of years rather than lifetimes, doesn't it? Even a beginner like myself can see that attachment to achievment in one lifetime must surely lengthen one's journey through the cycle of birth and death in the long run. (If you are seeking liberation in this lifetime, you had better get off the internet!) I think it would be lacking in friendliness on my part not to point that out that your "look at my resume" approach to practice indicates an unskillful attachment to the fame and disrepute pair of the 8 worldly concerns. Metta, Phil P.S Sarah, I know I promised not to scold people, but I honestly belive pointing this out could be helpful for Jeff. I'm not doing it to exercise my sarcasm or express ill-will.