33000 From: Sarah Date: Thu May 13, 2004 2:08am Subject: Re: [dsg] Hello from Brazil Dear Gabriel, Thank you for your kind words. --- Gabriel Nunes Laera wrote: > I was introduced to the Dhamma in 2001, soon after the 11th September > attacks I decided to research how peace is understood and teached in all > the > world religions. <...> ... S: Very impressive - you must have been only about 16 then. Reminds me of our friend Anders not heard from for some time. .... <...> In January I`ve been to > the > Buddhadipa Thai Temple, it was a sunday, and there was a novice who > received > me had a very nice talk about what is Dhamma and how can we practice it > in > our daily lives. Basically he spoke of anicca, anatta and dukkha, this > was > for me very clarifying and inspiring! .... S: I’m glad you had such an inspiring encounter. You may find it helpful to also look at Nina’s book: “Buddhism in Daily Life” which can be found on line here I think: http://www.zolag.co.uk/ .... <....> > As I study Economics I decided to look for a way to use the dhamma in my > study of such amazing science which is directly originated from the > human > society relations and organization. Some months ago I found a very > interesting text written by a thailandian monk called "Buddhist > Economics", > and I have now the objective of making a new proposal of economics based > in > this text and in the buddhist ethics principles. > > I hope I can learn a lot from you in this group, and I invite any > interested > in helping me with the "Buddhist Economics"! .... S: I liked Icaro’s suggestion of the Mahavamsa. I was also thinking of the commentary to the first chapter of the Parinibbana sutta which details how the Vajjis lived so harmoniously. The sutta can be found here: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/digha/dn16.html For the commentary, there’s a small book available from the pali text society, ‘The Buddha’s Last Days’. We read about how ‘only prosperity, not decline is to be expected for the Vajjis’ who assemble frequently, hear messages from all directions, adjourn together harmoniously etc. “If when someone’s work is failing, the rest of the kings send their brothers and sons and support his work; and if when some king arrives [as a guest], they do not direct him to such and such a house, but all provide hospitality toether; and if when one has an occasion for celebration, or a disease, or some other occasion for happiness or unhappiness of that kind has arisen, they all share it as companions, then it is called ‘The Vajjis do their business in harmony.’ It also discusses taxes and punishments and justice, so that people don’t become irritated and prosperity is experienced. There is lots more and then it’s followed by the commentary on conditions for the welfare of the Sangha along similar lines of assembling frequently, living harmoniously and following the Patimokkha rules, rehearsing the teachings. It’s very long and detailed. If there are any parts you’d like me to check and quote, please ask. Metta, Sarah ====== 33001 From: Sukinderpal Singh Narula Date: Thu May 13, 2004 2:52am Subject: Formal Sitting or Natural Arising? (was: Re: Video Games?) Hi Ken H, > However, I still like to wonder if there > might be some vast, fundamental difference between moments of kusala > consciousness that are unconnected with the Dhamma and moments of > kusala consciousness that are pariyatti – that is, connected with > the Dhamma at an intellectual level. > ------------------- Do you mean the difference between kusala of dana, sila and samatha bhavana, and panna of the level of pariyatti? I think they are completely different. Though the latter depends to a good extent on development of the former to reach fruition in pativedha, in itself it is far more valuabl= e. Kusala of other kinds is quite common, both out there in the form of teachings of other religions, as well as possible arising in human and other higher realms. But knowledge of Dhamma even of the pariyatti level is extremely rare. A Buddha Sasana is just a fraction compared to the times without it, and in a day we can see how little right view arises = even though we have the Teachings and some good teachers ;-), to remind us again and again. This I think is because the propensity to wrong view and attachment to `self' is so great and that in the process, we happily identify with the lesser form of kusala. It seems that even the majority Buddhists doesn't really appreciate this most important teaching given by the Buddha, namely Anatta, and are in fact quite satisfied with those other kusala. When pressed on the question of anatta, some just want to run away. I think in the end it boils down to how much one has really heard about these things accumulated from countless lifetimes. If panna is too weak to see the importance of eradicating ignorance, then one will prefer to develop other levels of kusala. And I think this corresponds with seeing the importance of the development right view on the one hand and seeking a short cut through different practices on the other. If one really saw the importance of Right View, then it is the `intellectual understanding' that = one will naturally seek to have each time one notices how little panna there is. Ironically it seems that those who have heard much see the importance of more listening and study, whereas those who have not heard enough to see this believe that they now can `do' things to condition patipatti. :-/ Of course, conditions are very complex and all kinds of accumulations approach the Teachings, and I have the habit of generalizing and this may be an oversimplification :-(. However, there is also another group who I label as materialists. These don't believe in rebirth and existence of other realms and their understanding of kamma is quite limited. Some of them even go so far as to propose that kusala and akusala are relative. Their interpretation of the Teachings is based on what they `perceive' in the conventional world. I think that some of them are `too clever'; they have good knowledge of worldly matters and trust so much their judgement, that anything which cannot be proven within the framework of such knowledge, is seen as being merely symbolic. Rebirth is interpreted as only this momentary rise and fall of citta, and deva realms are symbolic of mental states. And though they may appear profound when they talk about momentary birth and death, in reality they really believe in `self' and situations. If pressed, some will= admit that the goal in life is to be `happy'! And when this is the case, then naturally they will see Buddha's and other teachings as being mere strategies to this end. I am not sure who is in a better position though!? = This is already too much proliferation, so enough I think for today. :-) Metta, Sukin. 33002 From: Sarah Date: Thu May 13, 2004 2:58am Subject: Re: [dsg] re: Global chaos or a cup of tea Hi Phil (Kom* & Sukin** & Dan***), Good to read your feedback;-) --- Philip wrote: > > Ph: I think this would be true for something subtle, like choosing > between harsh speech and gentle speech, or between daydreaming of > something unwholesome or staying in the moment to examine realities, > but when it comes to gross defilements like being interested in war > footage, I would disagree and say something can and should be done > about it. We DO have an option with the crude excesses, I'm thinking - > with subtle or latent defilements it's a different story. .... S: Like Kom* was stressing: Kom: ‘none other than the Buddha can teach about the anattaness of all realities. It is not only the conceptual understanding of anattaness that the Buddha taught, but ultimately, it is the reality arising now, and the wisdom that realizes it directly, what anattaness is all about.’ We think ‘we’ have lots of options , but these too are conditioned moments of thinking. Does this mean that we just follow the war footage and be overcome by the ‘crude excesses’? That would not be right either. An understanding of anatta or conditioned dhammas means there is more knowledge of the danger of unwholesome states, not less. Whether kusala or akusala cittas arise now or whether there is enough restraint to abstain from clicking on www. Iraq.com, however, depends on many conditions, none of which include ‘Self-Option’, though a wrong view about ‘Self-Option’ and thinking in this will in itself be a condition for further wrong views in future. .... > Ph: Yes, it's not an attachment to believing that the other option > is more fertile, but I really have to believe that allowing onself to > be further polluted by certain kinds of media - pronography, for > example - in the belief that it is an equally valid way of examining > rupa and nama could be a trap for a beginner like myself to fall > into. .... S: That’s not quite how I'd put it. My point was that whatever cittas, cetasikas or rupas are appearing now, by conditions, can be known. If there is an idea that another activity or nama or rupa has to occur first, then it’s wrong. If we think that ‘Oh well, might just as well look at the disturbing news or porn because they’re all namas and rupas just the same”, that would be equally wrong. ..... >I think the idea you're expressing above is more valid for > people who have made progress in clearing out the crudest defilements. .... S: Whether or not there has ever been any ‘progress’ or insight, dhammas are still conditioned and the only way for there to be any ‘clearing out’ is by the development of understanding of present dhammas. .... > Let's think of the citta stream as an actual river. I'm talking > about clearing out rotten logs and old bicycles and washing machines > that are blocking the flow. .... S: Who does the clearing out? There are only cittas, cetasikas and rupas as you know. .... >When that's done, the time will come to > take a more refined, less self-directed approach. That's the way I'm > seeing it now. I wonder if anyone else agrees that there is the need > for self to do some heavy work at the beginning to prepare for the > release of self? ... S: Don’t worry - the Great Majority will be on the ‘need for self’ side anywhere you look;-). .... Kind of like hiring a fellow to work without telling > him that the work he will be doing will be the preliminary stages of > a process that will lead to his being laid off! .... S: :-)I love the analogy (and all the others you give in other posts). The problem is that the more you rely on this fellow and the more he seems to be the answer to your prayers, the harder it’ll be to ever lay him off or to see the need to do so. In other words, self-view just leads to more self-view. It never leads to insight. .... > Ph: I can see the truth here. I guess I am impatient as always for > results in this lifetime. .... S: Exactly. Clinging to results leads us down all sorts of blind alleys I think. .... I should wait until right understanding > gradually leads me away from bad habits. But you know, my attachment > to the media is so unwholesome that I can clearly feel the benefits > from even one day without. .... S: So there’s nothing wrong in following the regimen you’re following - switching off, cycling and so on. Whatever one does, there can be sati and panna. The point is that each citta, each moment of thinking, each intention or reflection on kusala and akusala is conditioned and only panna can know this. Seeing and the visible object seen now cannot be any other way. We have no idea what will be conditioned next. ... >I go cycling, and stay in the moment, or > at worst think of dhamma topics - but if I go cycling after devouring > news, I think of Iraq, and find myself calculating how much harm Bush > has suffered from this, and ridiculous things like that. I wouldn't > want to die with that kind of hostility at work in me, though I know > of course that it is rising in a conditioned way and that the roots > of it can't be removed by sheer abstinence. I just feel so much > lighter and less irritable when I avoid watching the news. .... S: All by conditions, not by self. Here’s an amusing post by Dan on the topic I think***: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/8754 And a quote from the same Ven Dhammadharo that Azita was talking about: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/6683 Also an excerpt from the comy to the Satipatthana Sutta on the process of eating without a self: http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/m16728.html .... > I appreciate you feedback and will be rereading it. .... S: Likewise. I really appreciated this quote from Sukin**, so I’m using your post as an excuse to quote it and sign off;-) .... Sukin: When I first heard about saccannana, I realized how different it is for someone who has developed wisdom to the level of `not being drawn' into any elaborate mental chatter "about" dhamma, but instead seeing more the importance of knowing the arising dhamma in the moment. Someone of this level would be one who really listens deeply and with respect. But those like me, hardly hear a sentence, and already are driven to write a commentary :-(. I think I've written a commentary too :-( Metta, Sarah ====== 33003 From: nana_palo Date: Thu May 13, 2004 6:19am Subject: Re: [dsg] PHOTOS from the April 2004 meeting Dear Group, I am invited by a group to present Buddhism in relation with Leadership. I should be grateful if anyone from this group could inform me the resources or any other materials, or if please, could send personally to my personal email selamat@d... or nana_palo@c... anumodana, selamat rodjali ----- Original Message ----- From: "christine_forsyth" To: Sent: Saturday, May 08, 2004 2:39 AM Subject: [dsg] PHOTOS from the April 2004 meeting > Dear Group, > > Tom and Bev Westheimer (from New Hamshire) :-)) have added a couple > of photos to the DSG Meetings photo folder: > http://photos.groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/lst > > The first photo shows Bev, Betty and K. Sujin. The second photo is > of the Foundation taken from the carpark. > > Click on the '3DSG Meetings' folder, click on 'show all' and then > click on the thumbnail photo to enlarge. > > metta and peace, > Christine > ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- 33004 From: Philip Date: Thu May 13, 2004 6:58am Subject: Re: [dsg] my vacation Hello Nina, and all Nina: > Also a reminder that the Element of Water, > cohesion or fluidity does NOT appear through the bodysense, that it is not > tangible object. The Hautes Fagnes, Ardennes, is very marshy. I slipped and > landed on my back in a pool while going along a stream without a proper path > ( heavy going on stones, etc) and noticed (by inference, not by direct > awareness) how soft water is and then there was some cold. Ph: Weclcome back Nina. I thought of this post yesterday because while walking in the park I stopped to take a look at a little man- made brook that runs through the park. Sat at a place where the stream ran through two boulders and thought I'd try to "see" the water. So I had a close look at it and was intellectually aware of seeing consciousness and the visible object. And then realized that I couldn't actually see the visible object "water" - water is transparent- but instead was seeing light that was reflecting, and movement of rushing through the gap between the rocks, and the dark shape of the rocks. So it was a kind of first step at seeing how visual object is not always what we think. And then I remembered your post and decided to slip and land in the water to see if it was tangible or not.... ;) Seriously, I'm glad you weren't hurt. Metta, Phil 33005 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu May 13, 2004 10:12am Subject: Re: [dsg] Htoo, Hetu Paccaya Initiation. Dear Htoo, I did not go to your web, just immersed in my own projects. But one remark: these hetus are so relevant to daily life, we can never discuss them enough. With examples from our own life! I would like people to see that they are not theory. They can all be verified. Nina. op 12-05-2004 20:47 schreef Htoo Naing op htootintnaing@y...: > In that page, root condition or hetu paccaya is explained to some extent. > There are 6 roots or 6 hetus. They are lobha, dosa, moha, alobha, adosa, and > amoha. 33006 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu May 13, 2004 10:12am Subject: Re: [dsg] Philip, Dhammasangani and war on web Dear Philip, Icaro, Azita and all, op 12-05-2004 20:01 schreef icarofranca op icarofranca@y...: > The first sentence of Cittuppaada-ka.n.da.m: >> kaamaavacara a.t.tha mahaacittaani. > Let's Go!!!! N: Philip, you wrote about some problems connected with surfing on the web war program. It is a very human situation and with the Dhammasangani in hand I would like to make some practical observations. We all have troubling accumulations with regard to different things, depending on the individual. But we can learn from them. We can learn more about our deeply accumulated akusala. Only lokuttara citta can eradicate latent tendencies. But we can develop more understanding, we can learn that kusala citta as well as akusala citta are conditioned. What has happened has happened and it is of no use to have regret, then you only accumulate more aversion. Let's just consider the present now. We cannot plan or select anything with regard to the future which has not come yet, but we can understand conditions. With Icaro I am studying the first kusala citta, mentioned in the Dhammasangani: "Which dhammas are kusala? At a time when kusala citta of the sensesphere has arisen, accompanied by happy feeling and associated with understanding, referring to any object..." Then we read about all the accompanying cetasikas, the universals, the particulars and all the sobhana (beautiful) cetasikas that have rushed in to assist the kusala citta. They all arose together, at a certain moment in time. This is a very impressive, terse reminder going straight to the heart, because it is so true. It shows us that many conditions have to cooperate to enable kusala citta to arise. It is really amazing. And it arises before we can blink our eyes. It is the same with akusala citta, it arises already before we can do anything. But there can be a change from akusala to kusala, although it is momentary so long as akusala is not yet eradicated. We read in the Co to the Dhmsg, the Expositor (p. 100): I read part of this to Lodewijk at luncheon, but he likes it so much that I have to read it again at dinner. This is stimulating talk from Buddhaghosa. We can prove all this: when our confidence has become stronger happy feeling and enthusiasm (piti) can arise with the kusala citta. At the same time we need panna, because lobha with happy feeling is bound to arise in alternation with kusala citta. Wihout panna we may easily delude ourselves. As to the word 'bent on' , the Pali has: pari.naamita, bend to, change into. There can be a change from akusala to kusala if one understands the right conditions to be cultivated. An abundance of right reflection is also a condition for kusala. We need good friends who give us stimulating talks, we all need these in times of trouble. The Abhidhamma guides us so that we come to know the akusala cittas and kusala cittas arising in our life. Philip, you asked what to do, how to prevent akusala. Azita gave us a good reminder: Thank you, Azita, wonderful. Kalyanamitta, a good friend. Philip, some time ago you wrote to me that you wanted to give a gift to show your appreciation of the Dhamma. Here is another way that is even better: be a good Dhamma friend for others. But you are already, I know. Being a beginner, it does not matter, we all are beginners. You also listened to the Dhamma in past lives. Your confidence is growing, you will see more the value of kusala, expressed in words and deeds. This will make conditions change. I can predict that you will be so busy with helping others (remember, life is too short), that there is simply no time for watching 'I do not know what' on the web. It is just that conditions work out by themselves. It is important to help others by stimulating talk, helping them to see the value of kusala and especially the development of understanding. Once in the U.S.A. I heard a teacher say that most people live under the standard of their capacities, thus, everybody could do so much more than they actually do. This impressed me, I have always remembered this. A kalyanamitta: in the teachings an enlightened person is a real kalyanamitta. The sotapanna understands through direct experience kamma and vipaka. Thus also that the worldly conditions of praise and blame etc. are just moments of vipaka, produced by kamma. I sway too much by the worldly conditions, I must confess. I have still much to learn, I always need to develop the perfection of truthfulness, and to be guided by the Abhidhamma. Philip, I am so glad you brought up this very daily example, it is so useful to consider. Nina. 33007 From: Date: Thu May 13, 2004 7:11am Subject: Looking for two quotes. Help requested. Hello All I'm trying to find two quotes that are probably located in either the Majjhima, Samyutta, or Anguttara Nikays. Just in case anyone happens to have read them recently and or remembers where they are, I thought I'd take a shot to see if anyone knows where they are. I can only paraphrase the quotes and my paraphrasing may be more in line with the PTS translations than the Wisdom translations. The first one has the phrase something like... “Entangled (trapped) in a personâ€? I believe the idea it is expressing is that self-view traps one in samsara. The second one is phrased something like... “If this body/mind was a self, there could be no escape from it. But as it is not a self, there is an escape from it.â€? Thanks for your time in reading this. TG 33008 From: htootintnaing Date: Thu May 13, 2004 1:17pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Htoo, Hetu Paccaya Initiation. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: Dear Htoo, I did not go to your web, just immersed in my own projects. But one remark: With examples from our own life! I would like people to see that they are not theory. Nina. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Nina, Thanks for your reply and your good remark. I do know that you have been busy with the site/s you involve. Sujin also wants people to see patthana are not theory but there are examples in our daily life and in our own life, I think. I first wrote as files and put them on different groups. There is hardly any comment with the exceptions of some people who are real dhamma learners not just to show their abilities. To the worse, some group moderator/s angrily sent me email/s to remove my files. I just smiled and I removed at once. Sarah who is the owner of this site has a good mood and a good understanding on me. But she has space problems with her site. So I stopped sending more file. She advised me to write as a series at this site. But what I feel here is that the messages will be sparsed and may be worse than my 60 messages spread with different headings while they are in tandem messages. Patthana dhamma that I am trying to write is discussion. I just write them and to discuss any point of interest. So I just put them on the net instead of series messages. If you have small tiny bit of time, I would like to invite you to my group JourneyToNibbana. And discuss some matter of these. My group is not so active like DSG :-). Once I told Sarah that I received 100 emails from her group and I stopped for a while then. I hope you can manage to come to my group and discuss dhamma. With Metta, Htoo Naing PS: I will be looking forward to hearing from you. At this site or through my direct email address. htootintnaing@y... 33009 From: christine_forsyth Date: Thu May 13, 2004 1:56pm Subject: Re: Looking for two quotes. Help requested. Hello TG, all, Not sure if this will be of any help at all. TG: "Entangled (trapped) in a person" The only reference to 'tangle' or 'entangle' that I recall is in the 1.Devataasamyutta 23 (3) Tangle (Jata Sutta) http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn07-006.html TG: "If this body/mind was a self, there could be no escape from it. But as it is not a self, there is an escape from it." It has an echo of "Malunkhyaputta, with the view, the soul and body is the same, a holy life is not lead, even with the view the soul is different from the body, a holy life is not lead. Malunkhyaputta, with the view, the soul and body is the same or even with the view the soul is different from the body, there is birth, decay, death, grief, lament, unpleasantness and displeasure, I declare he is destroyed here and now." http://tinyurl.com/2mssd Also sounds a little like: http://www.cains.com/bucha/Anatta.htm Hope someone finds the exact reference for you, metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, TGrand458@a... wrote: > Hello All > > I'm trying to find two quotes that are probably located in either the > Majjhima, Samyutta, or Anguttara Nikays. Just in case anyone happens to have read > them recently and or remembers where they are, I thought I'd take a shot to see > if anyone knows where they are. I can only paraphrase the quotes and my > paraphrasing may be more in line with the PTS translations than the Wisdom > translations. > > The first one has the phrase something like... > > “Entangled (trapped) in a personâ€? > > I believe the idea it is expressing is that self-view traps one in samsara. > > The second one is phrased something like... > > “If this body/mind was a self, there could be no escape from it. But as it > is not a self, there is an escape from it.â€? > > Thanks for your time in reading this. > > TG 33010 From: Date: Thu May 13, 2004 11:15am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Looking for two quotes. Help requested. Hi Christine Thanks for the references. The first one may actually be the one I was looking for or one directly related to it. "Entangled in an entanglement" is a better way of saying "trapped in a person" which is probably more along the lines of a PTS rendering. I don't think the other quotes are exactly what I was looking for but they are excellent quotes and thanks for the help. TG 33011 From: kenhowardau Date: Thu May 13, 2004 8:59pm Subject: Formal Sitting or Natural Arising? (was: Re: Video Games?) Sukin, Thanks for keeping the conversation going – sorry for being a bit slow on the up-take. ------------------- S: > Do you mean the difference between kusala of dana, sila and samatha bhavana, and panna of the level of pariyatti? -------------------- Well, yes, but does pariyatti always have panna? (That brings us back to the beginning of our discussion.) Can there be kusala Dhamma study without panna? If I hear a bird-song without attachment, aversion or heedlessness, but also without panna, that is sila, I think. If I hear the Dhamma in the same way, is that the same? Or, does the object of my consciousness (the Dhamma) make it fundamentally different in some way? I think the answer is slowly dawning on me! I think you and Sarah have been telling me that pariyatti (which, strictly speaking, knows only concepts) always has panna if only of the kind that knows kusala from akusala. We don't need to speculate on which exact citta panna arises in -- in between cittas that conceptualise the Dhamma there may be moments in which panna takes paramattha dhamma as object. So, pariyatti and patipatti go hand in hand. It's a shame to have to snip any of your post, but I'll move on to another point you make: ------------------- S: > It seems that even the majority Buddhists doesn't really appreciate this most important teaching given by the Buddha, namely Anatta, and are in fact quite satisfied with those other kusala. When pressed on the question of anatta, some just want to run away. ------------------- Yes, members of the Non Action Group (as we have been called) might not have more kusala than the Action Group -- sometimes a lot less -- but we do love the doctrine of anatta. --------------- S: > Ironically it seems that those who have heard much see the importance of more listening and study, whereas those who have not heard enough to see this believe that they now can `do' things to condition patipatti. :-/ -------------- I remember apologising to a dsg friend if I seemed to be telling him, "been there, done that!" No one likes to be told that about their venerated meditation experiences: words like, `smug' `pretentious' ` patronising' and `twit' spring to their minds :-) But, as you imply, there does seem to be a one-way process: A lot of us have come from formal-practice to the anatta- centred view of Buddhism, but have any of us gone the other way? -------------------- S: > However, there is also another group who I label as materialists. These don't believe in rebirth and existence of other realms and their understanding of kamma is quite limited. Some of them even go so far as to propose that kusala and akusala are relative. Their interpretation of the Teachings is based on what they `perceive' in the conventional world. I think that some of them are `too clever'; they have good knowledge of worldly matters and trust so much their judgement, that anything which cannot be proven within the framework of such knowledge, is seen as being merely symbolic. Rebirth is interpreted as only this momentary rise and fall of citta, and deva realms are symbolic of mental states. And though they may appear profound when they talk about momentary birth and death, in reality they really believe in `self' and situations. If pressed, some will admit that the goal in life is to be `happy'! ---------------------- I seem to remember subscribing to those views. When there is no knowledge of Abhidhamma, we can't know that the Buddha was talking about things that are absolutely real. As a result, everything is seen, as you said, as relative. Even anatta is seen as relative. (Heaven forbid!) Kind regards, Ken H 33012 From: Sarah Date: Thu May 13, 2004 11:06pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Looking for two quotes. Help requested. Hi TG (& Chris), --- TGrand458@a... wrote: > Hello All > The second one is phrased something like... > > ‘If this body/mind was a self, there could be no escape from it. But > as it > is not a self, there is an escape from it.’? .... S: How about this Udana? http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/khuddaka/udana/ud8-03a.html “Thus have I heard. At one time the Lord was staying near Savatthi in the Jeta Wood at Anathapindika's monastery. On that occasion the Lord was instructing... the bhikkhus with a Dhamma talk connected with Nibbana, and those bhikkhus... were intent on listening to Dhamma. Then, on realizing its significance, the Lord uttered on that occasion this inspired utterance: There is, bhikkhus, a not-born, a not-brought-to-being, a not-made, a not-conditioned. If, bhikkhus, there were no not-born, not-brought-to-being, not-made, not-conditioned, no escape would be discerned from what is born, brought-to-being, made, conditioned. But since there is a not-born, a not-brought-to-being, a not-made, a not-conditioned, therefore an escape is discerned from what is born, brought-to-being, made, conditioned.” From the commentary (Masefield transl): Udana comy 395 : “ ‘Monks, if there were not’ that unconditioned element having as its own nature that which is unborn and so on, ‘there could not be made known’, there could not be discovered,there could not be witnessed, ‘here’, in this world, ‘the escape’, allayment without remainder, ‘for that which is conditioned’ reckoned as the khandha-pentad of form and so on that has as its own nature (sabhava) being born and so forth. For states associated with the ariyan path, such as right view and so on, as they proceed making nibbana their object, extirpate the defilements without remainder. In this way, there is made known in this connection the non-occurrence of, the disappearance of, the escape from, the entire dukkha belonging to the cycle...” Metta, Sarah p.s Thanks to Chris, Nina and RobM for the hell realm references ====================== 33013 From: Sarah Date: Thu May 13, 2004 11:31pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Htoo, Hetu Paccaya Initiation. Hi Htoo, --- htootintnaing wrote: > I first wrote as files and put them on different groups. There is > hardly any comment with the exceptions of some people who are real > dhamma learners not just to show their abilities. .... S: I’m posting p.30 on roots below so that Nina and others who are busy can read it easily. It's beautifully presented at the link and I can't copy the pictures of course. I’m rushed now, but will also look at it more carefully over the weekend - an important and difficult subject. Just because people don’t make comments doesn’t mean it’s not read or not of interest. It’s the same with our Vism or other series - few comments at the time, but many people tell me they find it intereresting and helpful. For others it’s too detailed, just as when we went through the Satipatthana commentary and Nina’s ADL. If you wish to continue posting pages from 30, pls do, perhaps one a week, but don’t be deterred by how many or few responses you have. I’ll try to follow and comment/discuss/question if possible as well. Also, most people give priority to posts particularly addressed to them, so maybe you can join in some other threads, like the Vism one too, giving assistance or adding comments/queeries. .... > Patthana dhamma that I am trying to write is discussion. I just write > them and to discuss any point of interest. So I just put them on the > net instead of series messages. ... S: I think friends like Nina or myself are more likely to read extracts on the list here. As you say, it’s busy and so we may not follow your links often. Pls continue to join in any of our discussions on DSG, Htoo. We value your input. Metta, Sarah ===== Htoo - PATTHANA DHAMMA 30 >Hetu paccaya or root conditions are one of patthana paccaya. They are one of 24 conditions that can be seen in patthana dhamma. There are 6 roots or 6 hetus. All these 6 roots or hetus are cetasika dhamma. They are lobha, dosa, moha, alobha, adosa, and amoha. Lobha, dosa, and moha are called akusala hetus and alobha, adosa, and amoha are called kusala hetus. These latter 3 hetus if they arise with abyakata dhamma they are called abyakata hetus. Lobha is also known as tanha, upadana, samudaya and so on. Moha is sometimes called avijja. Alobha is sometimes refered to dana or offering but it is non-attachment. Adosa is metta or loving kindness. Amoha is pannindriya cetasika and simply called panna and is sometimes called vijja. There are 89 cittas or 89 states of consciousness. Among these 89 cittas, 18 cittas do not have any hetu or root with them. They are called ahetuka cittas and they are not conditioned by root condition. These 18 cittas are 10 pancavinnana cittas, 5 akusala and 5 kusala in origin, 2 sampaticchana cittas or receiving consciousness again akusala and kusala, 2 upekkha santirana cittas, akusala and kusala, and 1 kusala somanassa santirana citta. These 15 cittas are vipaka cittas and they are called ahetuka vipaka cittas. There are 3 ahetuka kiriya cittas. They are pancadvaravajjana citta, manodvaravajjana citta, and somanassa hasituppada citta. 15 ahetuka vipaka cittas and 3 ahetuka kiriya cittas are not supported by root condition. These 18 cittas are ahetuka cittas while all other cittas are called as sahetuka cittas. There are 71 sahetuka cittas. They are 2 ekahetuka cittas, 22 dvihetuka cittas, and 47 tihetuka cittas. All these 71 sahetuka cittas are supported by root condition and this condition is called as hetu paccaya. Hetu serves as the root for the whole tree. The root of a tree gives water to the whole tree, supports nutriment to the whole tree. Like a tree, the whole tree of nama-rupa are supported by stated 6 hetus. As these 6 hetus are present, they support the stem citta, all the branches cetasikas and all the leaves rupa dhamma. Ekahetuka cittas are 2 moha mula cittas. In these 2 cittas, there is no other hetu but just moha hetu. So these cittas are called ekahetuka cittas. Eka means one and that single hetu is moha. 2 moha mula cittas are upekkha samagatam uddhacca sampayutta citta and upekkha sahagatam vicikiccha sampayutta citta. The root is moha hetu. The stem is uddhacca citta and vicikiccha citta. There are cetasika branches in the whole tree of nama-rupa. In uddacca citta, there are 1.phassa or contact, 2. vedana or feeling, 3. cetana or volition, 4. sanna or perception, 5. ekaggata or one-pointedness, 6. jivitindriya or mental life, 7. manasikara or attention, 8. vitakka or initial application, 9. vicara or sustained application, 10. viriya or effort, 11. adhimokkha or decisiveness, 12. ahirika or shamelessness, 13. anottappa or fearlessness, 14. uddhacca or spreading. In that tree of uddhacca there are a total of 15 cetasikas including the root moha. Leaves are cittaja rupa, kammaja rupa where uddhacca citta has to depend on that is hadaya vatthu, and utuja rupa and aharaja rupa are also so there. In the tree of vicikiccha, the root that is a single root is moha as well. The stem is vicikiccha citta. There are cetasika branches. In vicikiccha citta, as it cannot decide anything there does not arise adhimokkha. So there will be 14 cetasikas that arise in uddhacca citta. But in vicikiccha citta an extra cetasika is vicikiccha cetasikas. So there are a total of 15 cetasikas in the vicikiccha tree. The root is moha. The stem is vicikiccha citta. The branches are 14 cetasikas ( with moha there will be 15 cetasikas ). Leaves are cittaja rupa, kammaja rupa hadaya vatthu, utuja rupa and aharaja rupa.In both trees, moha is the chief. Moha supports as root conditions to all those dhamma cited above. This condition is called root condition. This is hetu paccaya.< ======================================== 33014 From: Sukinderpal Singh Narula Date: Fri May 14, 2004 2:39am Subject: Formal Sitting or Natural Arising? (was: Re: Video Games?) Hi Ken H (and * for Sarah) > ------------------- > S: > Do you mean the difference between kusala of dana, sila and > samatha bhavana, and panna of the level of pariyatti? > -------------------- > Ken: > Well, yes, but does pariyatti always have panna? (That brings us > back to the beginning of our discussion.) Can there be kusala > Dhamma study without panna? If I hear a bird-song without > attachment, aversion or heedlessness, but also without panna, that > is sila, I think. If I hear the Dhamma in the same way, is that the > same? Or, does the object of my consciousness (the Dhamma) make it > fundamentally different in some way? OK, now I get you. Once I wondered about distinguishing between moments of vipaka and javana in relation to hearing or reading Dhamma, I am still not clear. It seems though that recognizing that the sound or written word is Dhamma at all, this must be kusala, no? What is pariyatti, is it the words recited from the Tipitaka, or is it the meaning understood? I think it is the understanding (panna), which qualifies anything heard or read as Dhamma. *So Sarah, your commentaries are `pariyatti' as far as I am concerned ;-). >Ken: I think the answer is slowly dawning on me! I think you and Sarah > have been telling me that pariyatti (which, strictly speaking, knows > only concepts) always has panna if only of the kind that knows > kusala from akusala. We don't need to speculate on which exact > citta panna arises in -- in between cittas that conceptualise the > Dhamma there may be moments in which panna takes paramattha dhamma > as object. So, pariyatti and patipatti go hand in hand. I am not sure, but sometime back I had the thought that if after conceptually considering the Dhamma, there follows a sense of detachment, it may be because there is weak level of insight into anicca, dukkha or anatta. Do you think am I exaggerating? :-( > ------------------- > S: > It seems that even the majority Buddhists doesn't really > appreciate this most important teaching given by the Buddha, namely > Anatta, and are in fact quite satisfied with those other kusala. > When pressed on the question of anatta, some just want to run away. > ------------------- > > Ken: Yes, members of the Non Action Group (as we have been called) might > not have more kusala than the Action Group -- sometimes a lot less -- > but we do love the doctrine of anatta. > > --------------- Yes I used to think that because we concentrate more on getting the facts right, little attention is given to other forms of kusala, so that at any given moment, that NAGs would appear less `religious' than other Buddhists. > > S: > Ironically it seems that those who have heard much see the > importance of more listening and study, whereas those who have not > heard enough to see this believe that they now can `do' things to > condition patipatti. :-/ > -------------- > >Ken: I remember apologising to a dsg friend if I seemed to be telling > him, "been there, done that!" No one likes to be told that about > their venerated meditation experiences: words > like, `smug' `pretentious' ` patronising' and `twit' spring to their > minds :-) But, as you imply, there does seem to be a one-way > process: A lot of us have come from formal-practice to the anatta- > centred view of Buddhism, but have any of us gone the other way? > -------------------- Lol. Just this morning I was reading a post on another list and I got the impression that this poster was quite judgemental. But immediately, I was reminded about my own posts here. I reflected on how such language may create more negative influence than any positive. I mean, can we learn anything from judging ourselves even? Only kusala citta is useful and effective isn't it? But then I ask myself, what can I do? Answer, no-control, no one can predict conditions and as long as accumulations of akusala far exceeds panna, then this kind of preachy language on my part will continue to be. Blame it on accumulations. ;-) Besides, I thought about Sarah's and especially Nina's writings, that theirs are generally kind and gentle, yet often it doesn't make any difference, some people won't agree anyway. So I concluded that it must be OK to have all sort of styles including mine, on dsg. > S: > However, there is also another group > who I label as materialists. These don't believe in rebirth and > existence of other realms and their understanding of kamma is quite > limited. Some of them even go so far as to propose that kusala and > akusala are relative. Their interpretation of the Teachings is based > on what they `perceive' in the conventional world. I think that some > of them are `too clever'; they have good knowledge of worldly > matters and trust so much their judgement, that anything which > cannot be proven within the framework of such knowledge, is seen as > being merely symbolic. > Rebirth is interpreted as only this momentary rise and fall of > citta, and deva realms are symbolic of mental states. And though > they may appear profound when they talk about momentary birth and > death, in reality they really believe in `self' and situations. If > pressed, some will admit that the goal in life is to be `happy'! > ---------------------- > > Ken: I seem to remember subscribing to those views. When there is no > knowledge of Abhidhamma, we can't know that the Buddha was talking > about things that are absolutely real. As a result, everything is > seen, as you said, as relative. Even anatta is seen as relative. > (Heaven forbid!) Yes, I had the same views too. And I remember that prior to this stage, I thought religion in general including Buddhism, was for the weak!!! My memory of what I was fifteen years ago, makes it seem quite unbelievable that, that person then, would be here today discussing these things. :-) Don't feel any obligation to respond quickly, I have a response to Howard to make, which I will probably do tomorrow. :-) Metta, Sukin 33015 From: Suravira Date: Fri May 14, 2004 10:06am Subject: Re: Self-views (was: Not entering the Stream in Mahayana) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > Hi Suravira (Andrew & All), > > >As regards my current focus on the > > dharma, I am preparing a series of scripts (for broadcast on our > > local public access channel) on the practices of Dana & Sila. On the > > advise of Venerable Bhikkhu Buddha Rakkhita, the program series on > > Buddhism is following the general sequence of teachings given by > > Buddha to lay practioners - 1st Dana, next Sila and then Bhavana. > ... > S: thank you very much for telling us about the program series which > sounds very interesting and a lot of work. Pls be sure to tell us, > especially the American members, when these are broadcast and so on. [Suravira] If you wish, I can provide transcripts of the shows for distribution within this group. It would likely prove to be a great benefit to me to have feedback on the transcripts from participants in this group (prior to final broadcast recording). Tapes of the shows will be distributed throughout the Public Broadcast television system. If they choose to pick up the show, local channels will schedule it within thier programming at their discression. In all likelihood, the dates and times of their broadcasts will be unknown to me. > Another (Australian) friend of ours mentioned recently that he is > producing a television series based on `What the Buddha Taught'. > [Suravira] It is a real priviledge to obtain permission to produce a television series based upon that dharma book. > I'm also finding your discussions with Andrew useful. Can we say that > whatever the date or culture, all self-views consist of the same 20 > sakkaya-ditthi* and that all other wrong views as we read about in the > Brahmajala Sutta are based on these same self-views that have to be > understood and eradicated first? > > Metta, > > Sarah [Suravira] Yes, whatever the date or culture, the same 20 must be understood and eradicated. The challenge when sharing the profound and subtle wisdom contained within the Brahmajala Sutta is expressing it in a manner that does not defile it - by that I mean avoiding the cultivation of further or ancilliary false views that arise in the audience member in response to the 20 sakkaya-ditthi. > * From Nyantiloka's dict: > sakkáya-ditthi > > 'personality-belief', is the first of the 10 fetters (samyojana). > > It is entirely abandoned only on reaching the path of Stream- winning > (sotápatti-magga; s. ariya-puggala). > > There are 20 kinds of personality-belief, which are obtained by applying 4 > types of that belief to each of the 5 groups of existence (khandha): > > * (1-5) the belief to be identical with corporeality, feeling, perception, > mental formations or consciousness; > * (6-10) to be contained in them; > * (11-15) to be independent of them; > * (16-20) to be the owner of them (M.44; S.XXII.1). > > ======================================= > > With Metta, Suravira 33016 From: Suravira Date: Fri May 14, 2004 10:58am Subject: Re: The Practical View of Anatta Hello Andrew, Sorry about the delay in my response, but I have been very busy assisting my clients - feduciary responsibilities take precidence. > > > [Suravira] Seeing how the phrase "false views of individuality" is > > helpful stems from understanding the typical person's response to > > the terms 'not-self,' 'non-self' or 'no-self.' Most people who > > encounter these's terms immediately doubt their credibility - which > > is unfortunate. In distinct contrast, most people are amenable to > > entertaining the concept that they, or that we, may have false, or > > mistaken, views of our own individuality. In that this "false views > > of individuality" is more amenable, it is easier to continue to > > share with them teachings relating to anatta. > > Andrew: I think what you are saying is that the definition "false > views of individuality" is pedagogically more efficient. I probably > made a similar point to Ken H not so long ago regarding absolute and > conventional realities. Perhaps this was a result of attending > fiction writing courses which push the idea that "you've gotta > hook 'em [the readers] on the first page or you've lost 'em"? Have > you and I adopted this approach for our Dhamma discussions? Are we > thinking less about the accuracy of our Dhamma views and more about > the appeal to other worldlings of our Dhamma views? Hmm ... I'll > have to think about that one. Many suttas contain reference to the > monks being "roused" with a Dhamma talk, but I like to think that > this invigorating aspect is due to the Dhamma's truth rather than any > stylistic language that might have been used in its delivery. > Furthermore, how can we ever KNOW what language will prompt a > listener towards the Dhamma? The language used is only one of many > conditions that play a part. Sometimes negative language does the > trick. A friend of mine was moved to look into Buddhism when he read > a Christian book describing all the terrible "nonsense" that those > poor deluded Buddhists believe in. To him, the "nonsense" sounded > great! And he spent a large part of his life thereafter studying > Dhamma. > > [Suravira] As regards one's capacity to dispel the notion > of "I", "me" > > and "mine", that capacity is a function of the heart moreso than > the > > intellect. It is a function of the heart in that one gradually > > becomes dispassionate about "I" "me" and "mine" and the dramas that > > whirl around them. > > > > Once the heart is more peaceful in relation to that whirling drama, > > the mind opens of its own accord to this dharma of anatta. > > Andrew: Your point above is not clear to me, I'm sorry. I am > confused by your mention of intellect, heart and mind. Most people > intellectually rebel against anatta, don't they? It is a confronting [Suravira] I suspect that the intellectual rebellion is fired by fear - that the intellectual rebellion is merely a symptom of an underlying fear - an emotion. While it is sometimes convenient to consider intellect, and emotions as uncoupled, it is my view that the two are tightly integrated and interdependent. When our sense of self is recognized, or even glimpsed, as being false (in any aspect), the typical response is (fear, or more accurately) FEAR. > teaching that challenges everything we had taken for granted. So > intellectually examining the notion of a permanent self is a very > important process, I think. In the last sentence, you seem to be [Suravira] Yes, analytical contemplation is an important process. However, that process is subordinate to direct realization of anatta through the practice of bhavana. > saying that tranquility of consciousness leads to wisdom. My [Suravira] Not that it leads, but that it is a contributing factor. > understanding is that they arise together in some beautiful > consciousness moments but not all. That being so, linking one to the > other causatively may not be entirely accurate. > > [Suravira] > to apply these exercises in an analytical method is > somewhat > > beneficial, but it is not possible to directly realize anatta with > > the intellect. > > Andrew: Agreed. But I suspect it's not possible to directly realise > anatta when the intellect is in uproar against it, too. Could be > wrong on that one, so don't quote me. > > [Suravira] What definition of "self" are you proposing? > > Andrew: I wasn't proposing at all (said the bishop to the actress). I > see "self" as a concept. In absolute reality, it can only be the 5 > khandhas in the present moment. > [Suravira] Hmmm. Consider that the experience of a perception of being in time/space is not a concept - it is an intimate matter of life and death. The 5 khandhas is merely a model, an abstract representation, of the experience. > > [Suravira] What do you find lacking in its use? Let me > > also define individuality as the experience of being in time/space, > > and a "view of individuality" is defined as a perception of the > > experience of being in time/space. > > Andrew: "Individuality" is a conventional term with similar power > to "self" and "ego". It doesn't make anatta any easier for me. For > others, it might. > [Suravira] Well, on the upside, such great doubt can prove to be a strong motivating factor for engaging in the practice of bhavana. With metta, Suravira > > [Suravira] Yes. "Bass ackward" is twist on the phrase for "ass > > backward" > > Andrew: Where I come from, an "ass" has four legs and can be very > stubborn. But I get what you're getting at all the same... > > > [Suravira] The importance of providing a bullet-proof definition of > > the term "self" is critical within pluralistic cultures - such as > > those that exist in contemporary western societies. This is so in > as > > much as it is reckless to assume that everyone in the audience has > > the same understanding of self. For example, most Christians would > > equate (or even base) the notion of self on a soul, while aetheists > > would not. > > > > As regards the presentation of anatta in the cited sutta by the > > Buddha, I offer no criticism of his conduct. Yet, as I understand > > the background of his discourse, the audience was a homogeneous > > culture (was composed of 5 monks) in which atta was well defined > and > > about which a uniform concensus existed. Hence, because of these > two > > factors, perhaps the Buddha did not need to first establish a > > definition of atta for his audience's benefit. As I understand the > > referenced sutta, the Buddha negated form, feeling, perception, > > mental fabrications, and consciousness as equivalents of "self". In > > addition he asserted that anything which is impermanent is also > > unsuitable as an equivalent of "self". In that none of the 5 monks > > raised a concern about some other equivalent for "self" it is safe > > to infer that they shared the same cultural consensus of > what "self" > > was conventionally understood to be. Such a consensus does not > exist > > in contemporary western civilization, nor is an audience hearing a > > discourse on anatta a homogeneous culture - instead it is more than > > likely pluralistic (heterogeneous). > > Andrew: I have to question the notion that contemporary western > civilization is more pluralistic than India at the time of the > Buddha - a time the historians tell us saw the melding of 2 cultures > (after the Aryan invasion some centuries before). My reading > suggests quite the opposite! There was also widespread and distant > trade (without the comfort of having a McDonalds at every > crossroads). Take ideas on "permanent self", for example, there was > a very wide array of definitions of "atman", ranging from a little > man who lived in your heart and who popped out every time you went to > sleep, to some sort of ethereal soul. I don't really know, but I'm > not prepared to accept that the Buddha's listeners were a culturally > homogenous bunch until I get a lot more evidence. I'm also reminded > of that sutta (name escapes me) where the Buddha talks about the > different dialects and how one should relate to people who don't use > your dialect words. > > Best wishes > Andrew 33017 From: Suravira Date: Fri May 14, 2004 11:10am Subject: [dsg] Re: Not entering the Stream in Mahayana > This sounds fascinating! I teach a weekly class introducing > Abhidhamma at our local temple in Kuala Lumpur (my class notes are > included in the files section of DSG). > > I would be very interesting in reading your scripts. There are many > westerners (I am Canadian) on DSG who could give valuable input. > > My guess is that the script for a 28 minute show would be too long to > be posted as a single message; perhaps you could break each script > into multiple segments. Alternatively, you could get permission from > Sarah & Jon to upload the scripts to the files section of DSG. > > If you do not want to put the scripts into the public domain at this > time, then perhaps you could email them to me at rob.moult@j... > and we could discuss them together off-line. > > Metta, > Rob M :-) Hello Rob, Thank you for your offer to review the transcripts. All of the ideas you mentioned are worth investigating. And, as you inferred, the transcripts would have to be de-constructed into smaller segments. I have reserved a domain name (www.deerparksangha.org) for publishing the full transcripts and DVDs of the programs, but that website has not yet been published. Perhaps the easiest thing to do is to publish increments of the transcripts over time at www.deerparksangha.org and solicite feedback via an email account. Let me know what your take on this approach is. With metta, Suravira. 33018 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri May 14, 2004 11:39am Subject: Re: [dsg] Htoo, Hetu Paccaya Initiation. Dear Htoo, thank you for your kind words and invitation to your group, but I am really in time trouble, having also Pali yahoo, and sometimes Jim's Pali study. And ongoing projects, translations and so on. I think it is a good idea to post small parts of your writings. There is a lot of meaning even in a few sentences as regards these subjects. And some people here would enjoy it too. People do not read long mails in general, but what about ten sentences or so? We read it, contemplate and then we can react to it, write down some thoughts. The fact that you did not receive many reactions does not mean people do not read it. Nina. op 13-05-2004 22:17 schreef htootintnaing op htootintnaing@y...: > If you have small tiny bit of time, I would like to invite you to my > group JourneyToNibbana. And discuss some matter of these. My group is > not so active like DSG :-). Once I told Sarah that I received 100 > emails from her group and I stopped for a while then. I hope you can > manage to come to my group and discuss dhamma. 33019 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri May 14, 2004 11:39am Subject: Re: [dsg] Philip: my vacation Dear Philip, op 13-05-2004 15:58 schreef Philip op plnao@j...:> Seriously, I'm glad you > weren't hurt. N: It was fun. An adventure combined with Dhamma. I thought of another book. Since you like the Metta book, you may want to try another one: A. Sujin Wholesome Deeds, also on Zolag. This is Q. and Answer between A. Sujin and Kh Wandana about the ten kinds of kusala kamma. It shows how satipatthana can inspire all kinds of kusala. Nina. 33020 From: Date: Fri May 14, 2004 9:15am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Not entering the Stream in Mahayana Suravira, I am in the process of writing an article for a newspaper's InterFaith column about Dana. I would be interested in trading notes on this topic. Send me what you have and I'll send you what I have. Jack H. 33021 From: robmoult Date: Fri May 14, 2004 2:47pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Not entering the Stream in Mahayana Hi Suravira, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Suravira" wrote: > Thank you for your offer to review the transcripts. All of the ideas > you mentioned are worth investigating. And, as you inferred, the > transcripts would have to be de-constructed into smaller segments. > > I have reserved a domain name (www.deerparksangha.org) for > publishing the full transcripts and DVDs of the programs, but that > website has not yet been published. > > Perhaps the easiest thing to do is to publish increments of the > transcripts over time at www.deerparksangha.org and solicite > feedback via an email account. > > Let me know what your take on this approach is. My suggestion is to publish a transcript on the website www.deerparksangha.org and then post a message on DSG (and other discussion groups in which you may participate) alerting us that new material is available for review. DSG would then be used as a forum to post our reviews and discuss the reviews. I am looking forward to reviewing the first transcript. Please let us know at DSG when it is available! Metta, Rob M :-) 33022 From: robmoult Date: Fri May 14, 2004 3:06pm Subject: Dana Hi Jack, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jackhat1@a... wrote: > Suravira, > > I am in the process of writing an article for a newspaper's InterFaith column > about Dana. I would be interested in trading notes on this topic. Send me > what you have and I'll send you what I have. There is a wealth of information on Dana at http://www.buddhistinformation.com/dana.htm Here is a summary (extracted from various authors on this website): Introduction ============ In the teaching of the Buddha, the practice of giving claims a place of special eminence. It is the foundation and seed of spiritual development. Whenever the Buddha delivered a discourse to an audience who had not yet come to regard him as their teacher, he would start by emphasizing the value of giving. Only after his audience had come to appreciate this virtue would he introduce other aspects of his teaching, such as morality, the law of kamma, and the benefits in renunciation, and only after all these principles had made their impact on the minds of his listeners would he expound to them the Four Noble Truths. Strictly speaking, giving does not appear in its own right among the factors of the Noble Eightfold Path, nor does it enter among the other requisites of enlightenment. It serves as a basis and preparation which underlies and quietly supports the entire endeavor to free the mind from defilements. Besides appearing as the first topic in the graduated exposition of the Dhamma, the practice of giving also figures as the first of the three bases of meritorious deeds, as the first of the four means of benefiting others, and as the first of the ten paramis or "perfections" (sublime virtues to be cultivated by all aspirants to enlightenment). Giving can also be identified with generosity. Generosity is the inward disposition to give, a disposition which is strengthened by acts of giving and makes possible more demanding acts of self- sacrifice. Generosity is included among the essential attributes of the good or superior person, along with other qualities as faith, morality, learning and wisdom. The goal of the path is the destruction of greed, hate, and delusion. The cultivation of generosity directly debilitates greed and hate, while facilitating that pliancy of mind that allows for the eradication of delusion. The Practice of Giving ====================== By itself, dana brings wholesome kamma. When coupled with morality, concentration and insight, dana leads to liberation from saµsara. Giving yields benefits in the present and future lives, even when we are not aware of this fact, but when the volition is accompanied by understanding, we can greatly increase the merits. The amount of merit gained varies according to three factors: the quality of the donor's motive, the spiritual purity of the recipient and the kind and size of the gift. In the practice of giving, we should keep our mind pure in the act of giving, select the worthiest recipients available, and choose the most appropriate and generous gifts one can afford. The Factor of Volition ====================== The volition of the donor before, during and after the act of generosity is the most important of the three factors involved in the practice of giving. Buddhist teaching devotes special attention to the psychological basis of giving, distinguishing among the different states of mind with which one may give. A fundamental distinction is made between acts of giving that lack wisdom and those that are accompanied by wisdom. Generosity associated with wisdom before, during and after the act is the highest type of giving. Examples of wise giving are: - Giving with the understanding that the generous act will bring beneficial results in the future according to the law of kamma; - Giving while aware that the gift, the recipient and the giver are all impermanent - Giving with the aim of enhancing one's efforts to become enlightened As the giving of a gift takes a certain amount of time, a single act of giving may be accompanied by each of these three types of understanding at a different stage in the process. The best motive for giving is the intention to attain Nibbana. Liberation is achieved by eliminating the mental defilements (kilesa), rooted in the delusion of a controlling and lasting "I." Once this illusion is eradicated, selfish thoughts can no longer arise. As we progress, the volition involved in giving will assist us by improving the pliancy of the mind, an essential asset in developing concentration and wisdom, the prime requisites of liberation. Sotapanna always give with pure volition because their minds function on the basis of wisdom. Those below this level sometimes give carelessly or disrespectfully. In the practice of giving, as in all bodily and verbal conduct, it is the volition accompanying the act that determines its moral quality. If one is offering something to a monk, doing so without adopting a respectful manner would not be proper. Throwing a coin to a beggar in order to get rid of him would also be considered a defilement of giving. One should think carefully about the relevance of a gift for it to bring the best results. A gift given through an intermediary detracts from the value. If one gives without realizing the law of kamma, the act of giving diminishes in meritorious potency. If one only plans on giving a donation but does not fulfill one's plan, the merit earned will be very slight. If, after having given a gift, we regret our action, much of the merit of the deed will be lost. A moral person gives politely and respectfully. Whether the gift is spontaneous or planned, they will ensure that the timing and contents of the gift are appropriate for the receiver. One might contribute to a certain cause from fear that friends would disapprove if one did not give. Giving in response to such social pressures will have weak, though still beneficial, results. Charitable actions undertaken to gain a good reputation are selfish and not a valuable kind of giving (this is like paying a debt). It is not praiseworthy when one gives merely to return a favor or in expectation of a reward (this is like a bribe). We must be most careful of our own attitude while giving, as our attitude is the factor over which we have most control. The Recipient of Gifts ====================== The purity of the recipient is the second factor that determines the kammic fruitfulness of a gift. The worthiest recipients of gifts are the ariyans, the noble ones (Sotapanna, etc.); for it is their purity of mind, attained by wisdom, that makes the act of giving capable of yielding abundant benefits. Gifts to a Bhikkhu who strives for the state of a noble one, or to a Buddhist meditator who lives by the Five Precepts, will also yield bountiful results. When ariyans accept offerings, they do so to provide an opportunity for the donor to earn merit. Anagami and Arahants have eliminated desire for sense objects. Thus when they are given gifts their minds remain detached from the objects presented and their minds are filled with compassion for the giver. Giving to one who is not spiritually advanced is also beneficial. If the donor's intention is good, then even though the receiver is immoral, the donor will earn merit and by his act of giving, he will strengthen his own disposition to renunciation. A gift mentally offered to the Sangha but physically presented to a monk who is morally corrupt will still bear great fruit. The Objects to be Given ======================= The third factor involved in giving is the gift itself, which can be either material or immaterial. Dhamma-dana, the gift of the noble teachings, excels all other gifts. Those who expound the Dhamma, monks who preach sermons and teachers of meditation practice the highest kind of generosity. Those who are not qualified to teach the Dhamma can give the gift of the Dhamma in other ways. We can donate Dhamma books or pay for publications. We can discuss the Dhamma informally and encourage others to keep precepts or to take up meditation. We might write an explanation of some aspect of the Dhamma for the benefit of others. Giving cash or labor to a meditation center or helping support a meditation teacher can also be considered the gift of the Dhamma, as the purpose of the center and the teacher is the transmission of the Buddha's teaching. The most common type of gift is material things. A material object need not have a high monetary value for it to bring great results. If a poor man gives a monk the cup of rice that was to be his only food for the day, the man is making a great donation. If a prosperous merchant were to give the same small portion of rice, he would reap meager fruits. We should try to give things whose quality is at least as good as those we use ourselves. Many people in Burma buy the best fruits on the market as gifts for the monks although these fruits are much too expensive for them to consume themselves. Gifts to the Sangha may consist of food, robes, medicine, or monasteries. Lay people who understand the rules of the Vinaya can earn vast merit by donating the proper things at the proper time to the order of monks and nuns. Material gifts of a religious nature would include contributions towards the erection of a new temple or shrine or the purchase of a Buddha statue for a temple. The recipients of such gifts are the general public, whoever comes to the temple or worships before the Buddha image. Mundane gifts to the citizens would include donations to welfare organizations. If one does not merely contribute funds for such projects but provides physical labor as well, the kammic results will be even greater. Gifts of this sort can be quite meritorious if preceded, accompanied and followed by pure mental volitions. The Perfection of Giving ======================== The motive of renunciation prompts giving which disregards the qualities of the recipient and the mundane fruits of the merit acquired by giving. Renunciation is the thought of eliminating one's attachment to one's possessions, and thus aims at giving away the dearest and most difficult gifts. Bodhisattvas give in this manner in order to fulfill the dana parami, the "perfection of giving", the first of the ten perfections they must cultivate to the highest degree in order to attain Buddhahood. A Bodhisattva's work to complete the perfection of giving demands much more than other beings could emulate. Many Jataka tales relate how the Bodhisattva who was to become the Buddha Gotama gave things away with no thought of himself or of the mundane benefits that might follow. A Bodhisattva's purpose in practicing generosity is to fulfill the requirements for Buddhahood. A Bodhisattva must give more difficult gifts than material goods to fulfill the highest form of the perfection of generosity. He must freely give the parts of his body, his children, his wife, and even his own life. As King Sivi, our Bodhisattva plucked out both his eyes with his bare hands and gave them to Sakka, the king of the gods. Sakka had come to Sivi in the guise of a blind old man, just to provide him with the opportunity to make this remarkable gift. Sivi did this with no hesitation prior to the act, nor with any reluctance during the act, nor with any hint of regret afterwards. He said that this gift was made "for the sake of Awakening itself. The two eyes were not disagreeable to me. Omniscience was dear to me, therefore I gave my eyes". Another time the Bodhisattva took birth as a wise hare. That existence came to an end when he invited a famished Brahmin (again, Sakka in disguise) to eat him roasted and jumped into a fire. Because of the purity of the Bodhisattva's mind while making this highest gift of his entire body and life, the blazing fire did not hurt him. In relating the story he said that the fire had calmed him and brought him peace as if it had been cool water because he had accomplished the complete perfection of giving. The Ultimate Goal of Giving =========================== The practice of giving will aid us in our efforts to purify the mind. Generous gifts accompanied by wholesome volition help to eradicate suffering in three ways: - When we decide to give something of our own to someone else, we simultaneously reduce our attachment to the object; to make a habit of giving can thus gradually weaken the mental factor of craving, one of the main causes of unhappiness. - Giving accompanied by wholesome volition will lead to happy future births in circumstances favorable to encountering and practicing the pure Buddha Dhamma. - When giving is practiced with the intention that the mind becomes pliant enough for the attainment of Nibbana, the act of generosity will help us to develop virtue, concentration and wisdom (Sila, Samadhi, Panna). These make up the Noble Eightfold Path which leads to the extinction of suffering. The motivation of working for liberation is far superior to that of aiming at mundane happiness in future births. This is because a gift made with the desire for pleasure is accompanied by the unwholesome root craving (tanha). The merits earned by such gifts are exhausted in transient pleasure. Gifts untainted by craving and attachment can only be made during a Buddha Sasana, the period when the teachings of a Buddha are available. So when we give now, during such a time, we should do so with the aim of putting an end to craving. Function of Giving ================== Giving is of prime importance in the Buddhist scheme of mental purification because it is the best weapon against greed (lobha), the first of the three unwholesome roots (akusala mèla). Greed is based on egoism and selfishness; we hold our personalities and our possessions as "I" and "mine". Giving is the antidote to cure the illness of egoism and greed. Giving is like a battle. One has to fight the evil forces of greed before one can decide to give away something dear. A man lacking in spiritual strength finds it hard to practice giving. A small quail can die when it gets entangled in a creeper. Though weak, a creeper is a great bond for the small bird. But even an iron chain is not too big a bond for a strong elephant. Similarly, a man of weak character would find it difficult to part with his meager belongings, while a king with a strong character will even give up a kingdom once convinced of the dangers of greed. Miserliness is not the only hindrance to giving. Carelessness and ignorance of the working of kamma also hinder giving. If one knows the advantages of giving, one will be vigilant to seize opportunities to practice this great virtue. The Buddha said that if people only knew the value of giving as he does, they would not take a single meal without sharing their food with others. Qualities of the Donor ====================== The Suttas employ a number of terms to describe the qualities of a donor. He is a man with faith (saddha), he has faith in the nobility of a morally sound life, in the teachings of kamma and survival after death. He believes in the possibility of the moral and spiritual perfection of man. In short, he is not a materialist, and he has faith in the Buddha, the Dhamma, and the Sangha. The donor is also described as one who keeps an open house for the needy. He is interested in sharing his blessings with others. He is a philanthropist who understands the difficulties of the poor. He is open-handed and is ready to comply with another's request. He takes delight in distributing gifts to the needy and has a heart bent on giving. Such are the epithets used in the Suttas to describe the qualities of the liberal-minded. A noble giver is happy before, during and after giving. Before giving he is happy anticipating the opportunity to be generous. While giving, he is happy that he is making another happy. After giving he is satisfied that he has done a good deed. The Suttas list generosity as one of the qualities that go to make a gentleman. The Buddha compares the man who righteously earns his wealth and gives of it to the needy to a man who has both eyes, whereas the one who only earns wealth but does no merit is like a one-eyed man. The wealthy man who enjoys his riches by himself without sharing is said to be digging his own grave. The Donation ============ Practically anything useful can be given as a gift. It is not necessary to have much to practice generosity; one can give according to one's means. Gifts given from meager resources are considered very valuable. If a person ekes out a bare existence, leads a righteous life and looks after his family, but makes it a point to give from his limited stores, his generosity is worth more than a thousand sacrifices. Alms given from wealth righteously earned is greatly praised by the Buddha. Even if one gives a small amount with a heart full of faith one can gain happiness hereafter. The Dakkhainavibhanga Sutta states that an offering is purified on account of the giver when the giver is virtuous, on account of the recipient when the recipient is virtuous, on account of both the giver and the recipient if both are virtuous, by none if both happen to be impious. The Anguttara Nikaya mentions five great gifts which have been held in high esteem by noble-minded men from ancient times. These great gifts are the meticulous observance of the Five Precepts. By doing so one gives fearlessness, love and benevolence to all beings. If someone can give security and freedom from fear to others by his behavior, that is the highest form of dana one can give. The Recipient ============= There is a recurrent phrase in the Suttas describing those who are particularly in need of public generosity. They are recluses, Brahmins, destitutes, wayfarers, wanderers and beggars. Recluses and Brahmins are religious persons who do not earn wages. They give spiritual guidance to the laity and the laity is expected to support them. The poor need the help of the rich to survive and the rich become spiritually richer by helping the poor. At a time when amenities for travelers were not adequately organized, the public had to step in to help the wayfarer. It is a person's moral obligation to give assistance to these types of people. The Buddha describes three groups of people who should be tended with care and honor: - Parents - Wife, children, employees and dependents - Religious persons who have either attained the goal of Arahantship or have embarked on a course of training for the elimination of negative mental traits King Kosala asked the Buddha to whom alms should be given. The Buddha replied that alms should be given to those by giving to whom one becomes happy. Then the king asked to whom alms should be offered to obtain great fruit. The Buddha replied that alms offered to the virtuous bear great fruit. He clarified that offerings yield great fruit when made to virtuous recluses who have eliminated the five mental hindrances and cultivated moral habits, concentration, wisdom, emancipation and knowledge and vision of emancipation. Just as seeds sown in fertile well-watered fields yields bountiful crops, alms given to the virtuous established on the Noble Eightfold Path yield great results. The Dhammapada maintains that fields have weeds as their blemish; lust, hatred, delusion and desire are the blemishes of people and therefore what is given to those who have eliminated those blemishes bears great fruit. The results of generosity are measured more by the quality of the field of merit represented by the recipient than by the quantity and value of the gift given. The Anguttara Nikaya records the fabulous alms-giving conducted by the Bodhisattva when he was born as a Brahmin named Velama. But this open-handed munificence was not very valuable as far as merit was concerned because there were no worthy recipients. It is more meritorious to feed one person with right view, a stream-enterer (Sotapanna), than to give great alms such as that given by Velama. It is more meritorious to feed one once-returner than a hundred stream- enterers. Next in order come non-returners, Arahants, Paccekabuddhas and Sammasambuddhas. Feeding the Buddha and the Sangha is more meritorious than feeding the Buddha alone. It is even more meritorious to construct a monastery for the general use of the Sangha. Taking refuge in the Buddha, Dhamma, and Sangha is better still. Abiding by the Five Precepts is even more valuable. But better still is the cultivation of metta, loving-kindness, and best of all, the insight into impermanence, which leads to Nibbana. The Motivation for Giving ========================= The Suttas record various motives for exercising generosity: - One gives with annoyance, or as a way of offending the recipient, or with the idea of insulting him - Fear also can motivate a person to make an offering - One gives in return for a favor done to oneself in the past - One also may give with the hope of getting a similar favor for oneself in the future - One gives because giving is considered good - "I cook, they do not cook. It is not proper for me who cooks not to give to those who do not cook." Some give urged by such altruistic motives - Some give alms to gain a good reputation - Still others give alms to adorn and beautify the mind Favoritism, ill will and delusion are also listed as motives for giving. Sometimes alms are given for the sake of maintaining a long- standing family tradition. Giving can be motivated by a desire to be reborn in heaven after death. Giving pleases some and they give with the idea of winning a happy frame of mind. But it is maintained in the Suttas that alms should be given without any expectations. Nor should alms be given with attachment to the recipient. If one gives with the idea of accumulating things for later use, that is an inferior act of giving. If one gives with the hope of enjoying the result thereof after death, that is also an inferior act of giving. The only valid motive for giving should be the motive of adorning the mind, to rid the mind of the ugliness of greed and selfishness. The Manner of Giving ==================== The Suttas emphasize the manner of giving. The attitude of the donor in the act of giving is important for the goodwill between the donor and recipient irrespective of the value of the gift. - Alms should be given in such a way that the recipient does not feel humiliated, belittled or hurt. The needy ask for something with a sense of embarrassment and it is the duty of the donor not to make him feel more embarrassed. - Alms should be given with consideration and respect. The recipient should be made to feel welcome. One should not give in a callous manner that makes the recipient not feel like coming again. When a gift is given with warmth, a cohesive friendliness emerges between the donor and recipient. - The personal involvement in the act of giving is very beneficial. This promotes rapport between the donor and recipient and that is the social value of giving. Society is welded in unity with care and concern for one another when generosity is exercised with a sense of personal involvement. - One should give only what is useful and appropriate. One should not give as alms what is only fit to be thrown away. The Value of Giving =================== Giving promotes social cohesion and solidarity. It is the best means of bridging the psychological gap, much more than the material economic gap, that exists between haves and have-nots. Hate is eliminated when one is established in generosity. Generosity without morality does not ensure a positive rebirth. Limited generosity and morality, without meditation, causes an unfortunate birth in the human world. Considerable generosity and morality, without mediation, causes a fortunate human birth. Considerable generosity and morality coupled with mediation causes rebirth in one of the heavens. Giving with faith results in riches and beauty. If one gives with deference, one also gets children, wives, subordinates and servants who are obedient, dutiful and understanding. Giving alms at the proper time ensures timely fulfillment of needs. Giving alms with the genuine desire to help others results in the inclination to enjoy the best of sense pleasures. By giving alms without hurting oneself and others, one gains security from dangers such as fire, floods, thieves, kings and unloved heirs. Giving to an animal brings a reward a hundredfold. Giving to a person of poor moral habit yields a reward a thousand-fold; giving to a virtuous person yields a reward a hundred thousand-fold. When a gift is given to a person who is without attachment to sense pleasures, the yield is a trillion-fold. When a gift is given to one on the path to stream-entry the yield is incalculable. There is immeasurable merit accrued when six conditions are met: - The donor should be happy before, during and after the act - The recipient should be free from lust, hatred and delusion (or have embarked on a course of training to this end) The Buddha once explained that it is a meritorious act even to throw away the water after washing one's plate with the generous thought: "May the particles of food in the washing water be food to the creatures on the ground." Giving alone is not sufficient for one to make an end of suffering. Anathapindika, who was pronounced by the Buddha as the foremost among almsgivers, became only a stream-enterer. Dana has to be fortified by Sila, morality, to produce good results. Buddhism teaches a gradual process of emptying oneself. It starts with giving away one's external possessions. When the generous dispositional trait sets in and is fortified by the deepening insight into the real nature of things, one grows disenchanted with sense pleasures. At this stage one gives up household life and seeks ordination. Next comes the emptying of sensory inputs by guarding the sense doors. Through meditation (bhavana) one empties oneself of deep- seated defilements and fills oneself with positive noble qualities. But this whole process of bailing out negativities starts with dana, the practice of giving. Giving from the Heart ===================== The Sangha is described as "an unequalled field of merit-making for the world," meaning that the merit gained by giving to the Sangha is unequalled. Some may react to this notion with a degree of indignation. Such misgivings may be understandable, but can be countered by a proper explanation, and will not take root provided the Sangha is patently seen to be well conducted. The Buddhist community consists of four groups: monks, nuns, male and female lay followers. The relation between the Sangha and the laity is one of symbiosis. The Sangha has a priceless gift to give. Sabbadanam dhammadanam jinati: "The gift of the Dhamma excels all other gifts". Members of the Sangha have an obligation to live according to the Vinaya and to strive continuously for enlightenment. Only by so doing can they claim to be "an unequalled field of merit- making". If they fail in this obligation they are letting down themselves and the laity who support them. A monk or nun who cannot observe the rules should, and in certain cases must, leave the Order. If we receive something pleasant, this is Vipaka, the result of previous meritorious conduct. It is nice while it lasts, but when it is finished, its virtue is exhausted. To give is kusala kamma which will produce pleasant Vipaka. Buddhism gives a technical meaning to the biblical statement, "it is more blessed to give than to receive". It is true that the "blessing" remains purely mundane and limited, but as all our actions are habit-forming, giving once inclines us to give again, so that the result is cumulative. Giving can lead on to other things, and dana is listed as the first among the ten paramis or "perfections," coming even before sila (morality). It is possible for an immoral person to be generous. Generosity: The Inward Dimension ================================ If we only observe outward deeds we do not know if we are being sincerely generous. We should study our motivation for our deeds. True generosity is difficult. Motives for giving may not all be pure. We may give with selfish motives - expecting something in return, hoping to be liked by the receiver or wanting to be known as a generous person. There may be different thoughts at different moments, some generous, and others having different motives. We experience different moments of consciousness (citta), which arise one at a time and fall away immediately. Each citta is accompanied by several mental factors (cetasikas). Unwholesome cittas are accompanied by unwholesome cetasikas (attachment, stinginess, aversion, etc.). Wholesome cittas are accompanied by beautiful cetasikas (generosity, kindness, compassion, etc.). Unwholesome cetasikas have many degrees. We may know that there is attachment when we are greedy for food. We may not realize that there is also attachment when we enjoy scenery or beautiful music. We cannot force ourselves not to like beautiful things; there are conditions for the arising of attachment. We can learn to know the difference between the moments which are wholesome and the moments which are unwholesome. Selfishness persists, even in moments of subtle attachment. These are different from selfless moments of consciousness accompanied by generosity, when we do not think of our own enjoyment. Each wholesome citta is rooted in non-attachment (generosity) and non-aversion (kindness) and it may be rooted in understanding (wisdom) as well. Attachment cannot exist at the same time as generosity. When one is truly generous, one gives impartially and does not restrict one's generosity to people one likes. The Buddha taught that wisdom can eradicate the clinging to the idea of self, but if one does not learn to get rid of stinginess and clings to one's possessions, one cannot give up the clinging to self. When we see that generosity is beneficial and that selfishness and stinginess are harmful, we would like to have more moments of generosity. However, in spite of our wishes, we notice that unwholesome types of consciousness often arise. Then we are disappointed with ourselves. We should understand what conditions the arising of unwholesome consciousness. We must have been full of attachment, aversion and ignorance in the past, even in past lives. Such tendencies have become deeply rooted; they have been accumulated. What is past has gone already, but the unwholesome tendencies that have been accumulated can condition the arising of unwholesome consciousness at the present time. We have accumulated not only tendencies to evil but also inclinations to the wholesome. That is why there can also be moments of generosity and kindness at the present time. When an unwholesome type of consciousness arises we accumulate more unwholesomeness; when a wholesome type arises we accumulate more wholesomeness. The Buddha taught the ways to develop wholesomeness. Learning about these ways conditions more wholesomeness. We find opportunity for generosity, while we are giving, before the giving (when we buy the gift) and afterwards (when we recollect our giving). We may notice that before, during and after the giving, opportunities for generosity are spoilt by unwholesome consciousness. We may get tired when we are shopping for the gift and aversion arises. At first we may have been generous, but afterwards we may find that the gift was too expensive and regret having spent our money. The receiver may not respond to our gift in the way we expected and then we may be disappointed. When we have right understanding of what wholesomeness is, we should be concerned only with developing wholesome states of mind and not with the reactions of other people. Before learning the Dhamma, we did not consider generosity in this way and we did not pay attention to the moments of consciousness. When one has accumulated the tendency to stinginess it is difficult to be generous, but through the understanding of what the Buddha taught inclinations can be changed. We may find it difficult to part with our possessions, but when we die we cannot take them with us. Life is short, so when we have an opportunity for generosity we should use it to combat selfishness. Each moment of generosity will condition the arising of generosity in the future. Stinginess can bring about, either in this life or in a future life, the very result we fear: loss of possessions. Generosity can bring about prosperity. When we perform acts of generosity we should not cling to pleasant results; clinging is unwholesome. Kamma will produce its appropriate result whether we think of it or not. While we are giving we should have right understanding of kamma and its result, without clinging. We may do good deeds with the understanding of what wholesomeness is. When understanding accompanies the wholesome consciousness, it increases the degree of wholesomeness. We cannot make understanding arise at will; it arises when there are conditions for it. Learning what the Buddha taught is a condition for greater understanding. The appreciation of other people's good deeds is also a type of generosity. When we notice that someone else is doing a good deed we can appreciate his wholesomeness, and we may express this with words of praise. Just as we should not be stingy with our possessions, we should not be stingy with words of praise. Another type of generosity is the "sharing" of one's wholesome deeds with others. This does not mean that other people can receive the pleasant results of our good deeds. The Buddha taught that beings are "heirs" to their deeds. We each receive the results of the deeds we have done ourselves. Sharing wholesomeness with others means that our good deeds can be the condition for the arising of wholesome consciousness in others when they rejoice in our good deeds. We can share wholesomeness even with beings in other planes of existence, provided they are in planes where they can receive the benefits. It can become our custom to share wholesomeness with others; we need not even specify to whom we wish to dedicate it. Good deeds are usually classified as threefold: generosity, morality and mental development. This classification should not be considered a rigid one. Morality, or abstinence from evil deeds, can also be seen as an aspect of generosity, as an act of kindness to others. Abstaining from evil deeds gives other beings the opportunity to live in peace, free from harm. To develop generosity, we should not neglect mental development, the development of wholesome states of mind. The Sotapanna eradicates the wrong view of self and stinginess can never arise again. An ordinary person may be able to suppress stinginess temporarily, for example, at the time of giving, but stinginess is bound to arise again so long as its accumulated tendency remains. The stream-winner, through right understanding, has eradicated the tendency to stinginess. The Perfection of Giving ======================== The perfection of giving is to be practiced by benefiting beings by relinquishing one's happiness, belongings, body, and life to others, by dispelling their fear, and by instructing them in the Dhamma. Giving is threefold by way of the object to be given: the giving of material things, the giving of fearlessness, and the giving of the Dhamma. The object to be given can be internal or external. When the Bodhisattva gives, he gives whatever is needed to whoever needs it. He gives it even unasked, much more when asked. He gives sufficiently, not insufficiently. He does not give because he expects something in return. When there is not enough to give sufficiently to all, he distributes evenly whatever can be shared. He does not give things that issue in affliction for others, such as weapons, poisons, and intoxicants. He does not give amusements, which are harmful and lead to negligence. He does not give unsuitable food or drink to a person who is sick, even though he might ask for it, and he does not give what is suitable beyond the proper measure. When asked, he gives to householders things appropriate for householders, and to monks things appropriate for monks. He gives to all without causing pain to anyone. Having promised an excellent gift, he does not give something mean. He does not give because he desires gain, honor, or fame, or because he expects something in return, or out of expectation of some fruit other than the supreme enlightenment. He does not give detesting the gift or those who ask. He does not give a discarded object as a gift, not even to unrestrained beggars who revile and abuse him. He gives with care, with a serene mind, full of compassion. He does not give through belief in superstitious omens: but he gives believing in kamma and its fruit. When he gives he does not those who ask do homage to him. He gives only with an undefiled mind. He does not give a gift with harsh words or a frown, but with words of endearment, congenial speech and a smile on his face. Whenever greed for a particular object becomes excessive, the Bodhisattva recognizes his greed, quickly dispels his greed and gives away the object. He will not give his kingdom to those intent on the harm, suffering, and affliction of the world, but he would give it away to righteous men who protect the world with Dhamma. This is the way to practice the giving of external gifts. The internal gift should be understood in two ways. - A Great Man surrenders himself to another and enters into servitude, placing himself at the disposal of others. - Whatever limbs or organs of his might be needed by others the Great Man gives them away to those who need them. Thus the Great Man relinquishes an internal object in two ways: for the enjoyment of others or for his own self-mastery. In this matter he is completely generous, and thinks: "I will attain enlightenment through non-attachment." Herein, giving an internal gift, he gives only what leads to the welfare of the recipient, and nothing else. Thus the giving of the internal gift should be understood. The giving of fearlessness is the giving of protection to beings when they have become frightened on account of kings, thieves, fire, water, enemies, lions, tigers, other wild beasts. The giving of the Dhamma is an un-perverted discourse on the Dhamma given with an undefiled mind; methodical instruction conducive to good in the present life, to good in the life to come, and to ultimate deliverance. By means of such discourses, those who have not entered the Buddha's Dispensation enter it, while those who have entered it reach maturity therein. This is the method: In brief, he gives a talk on giving, on virtue, and on heaven, on the un- satisfactoriness and defilement in sense pleasures, and on the benefit in renouncing them. When he gives a material gift, the Great Man gives food thinking: "May I, by this gift, enable beings to achieve long life, beauty, happiness, strength, intelligence, and the supreme fruit of unsullied bliss." He gives drink wishing to allay the thirst of sensual defilements; garments to gain the adornments of shame and moral dread and the golden complexion of a Buddha; vehicles for attaining the modes of psychic potency and the bliss of Nibbana; scents for producing the sweet scent of virtue; garlands for producing the beauty of the Buddha-qualities; seats for producing the seat on the terrace of enlightenment; bedding for producing the bed of a Tathagata's rest; dwellings so he might become a refuge for beings; lamps to obtain the five eyes. He gives sounds for producing the Brahma-like voice of a Buddha; tastes for endearing himself to all the world; and tangibles for acquiring a Buddha's elegance. He gives medicines so he might later give the ageless and deathless state of Nibbana. He gives blameless amusements and enjoyments in order to produce delight in the true Dhamma. He gives gifts of gold, gems, etc., in order to achieve the major marks of physical beauty characteristic of a Buddha's body and gifts of the diverse means of beautification in order to achieve the minor features of physical beauty. He gives his treasuries as a gift in order to obtain the treasury of the true Dhamma; the gift of his kingdom in order to become the king of the Dhamma; the gift of monasteries, parks, ponds, and groves in order to achieve the Jhanas, etc.; the gift of his feet in order that he might be marked with the auspicious wheels; the gift of his hands in order that he might give to beings the rescuing hand of the true Dhamma to help them across the four floods; the gift of his ears, nose, etc., in order to obtain the spiritual faculties of faith, etc.; the gift of his eyes in order to obtain the universal eye; the gift of his flesh and blood with the thought: "May my body be the means of life for all the world! May it bring welfare and happiness to all beings at all times, even on occasions of merely seeing, hearing, recollecting, or ministering to me!" And he gives the gift of his head in order to become supreme in all the world. Bountiful and liberal, he gives things together with a bonus. For when he gives food, thinking: "I will give this along with a bonus," he gives garments, etc., as well. And when he gives garments, thinking: "I will give this along with a bonus," he gives food, etc., as well. The same method with gifts of vehicles, etc. And when he gives a gift of one of the sense objects, such as visible forms, he gives the other sense objects also as a bonus. The gift of sounds should be understood by way of the sounds of drums, etc. One gives a gift of sound by giving its base. Thus he makes a gift of sound by presenting a musical instrument, such as drums, to the Triple Gem; or by giving medicine for the voice to preachers of the Dhamma; or by announcing a lecture on the Dhamma, chanting the scriptures, giving a discourse on the Dhamma, holding a discussion, or expressing appreciation for the good deeds of others. The gift of scents is made when, after getting a delightfully scented object, considering it in terms of its scent, thinking to make a gift of scent, he offers it to the Triple Gem. He relinquishes a scented object such as sandalwood, for the purpose of making an offering of scent. The gift of tastes is made when, after getting a delightfully flavored object, such, considering it in terms of its taste, thinking to make a gift of taste, he gives it to worthy recipients. Or he relinquishes a flavorful object, such as grain, cows, etc. Having gained some soft, delightful, blameless tangible object such as a bed, chair, cushion, pillow, undergarment, or upper garment, considering it in terms of its tangible qualities, thinking to make a gift of a tangible item, he gives it to worthy recipients; having gained the aforesaid tangible objects, he relinquishes them. The gift of mental objects (Dhamma dana) should be understood by way of nutriment, drink, and life, since it is the mental-object base which is here intended. Having gained a delightful object such as nutriment, considering it as part of the mental-object base, thinking to make a gift of a non-sensory object, he gives nutriment -- i.e., ghee, butter, etc., or a drink; or, considering it a gift of life, he gives a ticket-meal or a fortnightly meal, etc., gets doctors to wait upon the sick and afflicted, liberates animals from a net, has a fishing net or bird-cage destroyed, releases prisoners from prison, causes an injunction to be given forbidding the slaughter of animals, or undertakes any action of a similar nature for the sake of protecting the life of beings. This entire accomplishment in giving he dedicates to the welfare and happiness of the whole world, and to his own unshakable emancipation through supreme enlightenment. He dedicates it to the attainment of inexhaustible desire for the good, inexhaustible concentration, ingenuity, knowledge, and emancipation. In practicing the perfection of giving the Great Being should apply the perception of impermanence to life and possessions. He should consider them as shared in common with many, and should constantly and continuously arouse great compassion towards beings. Just as, when a house is blazing, the owner removes all his property of essential value and himself as well without leaving anything important behind, so does the Great Man invariably give, without discrimination and without concern. When the Great Man has made a mental determination to completely relinquish whatever possessions come his way, there are four shackles to giving which he must overcome: - When the Bodhisattva possesses objects that can be given and suppliants are present, but his mind does not leap up at the thought of giving and he does not want to give, he should conclude: "I have not been accustomed to giving in the past, therefore a desire to give does not arise now in my mind. So that my mind will delight in giving in the future, I will give a gift. Let me now relinquish what I have to those in need." - When the object to be given is inferior or defective, the Great Being reflects: "Because I was not inclined to giving in the past, at present my requisites are defective. Therefore, though it pains me, let me give whatever I have as a gift even if the object is low and inferior. In that way I will, in the future, reach the peak in the perfection of giving." - When a reluctance to give arises due to the excellence or beauty of the object to be given, the Great Being admonishes himself: "Good man, haven't you made the aspiration for the supreme enlightenment, the loftiest and most superior of all states? Well then, for the sake of enlightenment, it is proper for you to give excellent and beautiful objects as gifts." - When the Great Being is giving a gift, and he sees the loss of the object being given, he reflects thus: "This is the nature of material possessions. They are subject to loss and to passing away. Moreover, it is because I did not give such gifts in the past that my possessions are now depleted. Let me then give whatever I have as a gift, whether it be limited or abundant. In that way I will, in the future, reach the peak in the perfection of giving." Reflecting upon them thus in whatever way is appropriate is the means for dispelling the harmful shackles to the perfection of giving. The same method used for the perfection of giving also applies to the perfection of virtue and the other perfections. Metta, Rob M :-) 33023 From: robmoult Date: Fri May 14, 2004 3:13pm Subject: The Perfect Gift Hi All, Blood is an anonymous gift. There is no way that the recipient could know who the donor was. Donating blood is a pure act of giving, without any other possible motives. Blood is free from economics. When a gift is opened, the recipient cannot help but think of how much was paid. Unlike other types of gifts, neither the donor nor the recipient attaches an economic value to a gift of blood. Blood is a very personal gift. What could be more personal than blood? Blood cannot be manufactured, except by a human body. During the act of donating, blood is pumped into the sac by the heart of the donor. The recipient always appreciates a gift of blood. Other types of gifts are sometimes left unused or unappreciated. When a person receives blood it is because they really need it; perhaps it is even a case of life or death. You do not need to be wealthy to donate blood, just healthy. I think that we all agree that health is more important than wealth. Let us celebrate our good health and share it with others who are less fortunate (less healthy) than ourselves by donating blood. Metta, Rob M :-) 33024 From: Date: Fri May 14, 2004 3:29pm Subject: Vism.XIV 78 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga), Ch. XIV 78. Here, however, what is called materiality of the heart is 'physical basis, not door'; sensitive matter is 'both physical basis and door' the rest are 'neither physical basis nor door'. So it is of four kinds according to the physical basis tetrad. 33025 From: Philip Date: Fri May 14, 2004 4:21pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Philip: my vacation Hello Nina, and all I will look for that book, Nina. As it happens, I was just reading the chapter on wholeseome deeds in Buddhism in Daily Life and a question arose. The chapter ends with this: "Helping other people with kind words and deeds alone is not enough. When it is the right moment we can help other in a deeper and more effective way, that is, helping them to understand who they are, why they are in this world and what the aim of their life in this world is. This way of helping is included in bhavana or mental development." In another thread, you spoke of the gift we can give others by encouraging them towards an understanding of kusala and akusala andI will be responding to that thread tonight, but right now I only have time to ask about the end of the above sentence. In what way is this way of helping included in bhavana? Is it through brahma-viharas? Recently I have been greatly impressed and really had my way of thinking about metta shifted by your writing on how we can help people to feel calm, perhaps, but only for that moment. I loved your description of your kindness to Lodjewik - I am sorry as always for not having learned to spell his name yet - when he came home from work irritable from a hard day- and the way your good humour conditioned happiness for him. And in your case, you could continue on from there and have a wholesome discussion based in right understanding over dinner. But for most people who do not have the accumulations for those kind of discussions. Real and lasting wellbeing can only come through their right understanding which is not something we can impart just by being kind. Well, I won't get into what I want to post about in my reply to the "global chaos" thread tonight, but in the meantime if you have a moment to expand a bit on the above sentence I'd be very grateful. How is helping others towards right understanding included in bhavana? Thanks! Metta, Phil --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > Dear Philip, > op 13-05-2004 15:58 schreef Philip op plnao@j...:> > Seriously, I'm glad you > > weren't hurt. > N: It was fun. An adventure combined with Dhamma. > I thought of another book. Since you like the Metta book, you may want to > try another one: A. Sujin Wholesome Deeds, also on Zolag. This is Q. and > Answer between A. Sujin and Kh Wandana about the ten kinds of kusala kamma. > It shows how satipatthana can inspire all kinds of kusala. > Nina. 33026 From: christine_forsyth Date: Fri May 14, 2004 4:25pm Subject: Theravada Buddhism Web Directory and Portal Hello All, Members may be interested in this site with 913 links in its database: Academic - 32 Education - 17 News and Events - 13 Organizations - 460 Pilgrimage - 16 Software - 9 Audio-Visual - 42 Introduction to Theravada Buddhism - 16 Non-English (Burmese, Chinese, Czech, Dutch, Estonian, French ...) - 68 Pali - 30 Publications - 14 Traditions Mahasi Sayadaw, Sayagyi U Ba Khin, Thai Forest - 20 Discussions, Forums, Mailing Lists - 31 Meditation - 16 Non-Organizationals - 18 Personalities - 31 Readings - by email, Digital Libraries, Inter-Religion, Online Books, Tipitaka - 69 Web Directories - 11 Sadhu! - The Theravada Buddhism Web Directory and Portal http://www.dhamma.ru/sadhu/modules/mylinks/ metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- 33027 From: Date: Fri May 14, 2004 6:48pm Subject: Vism.XIV 78 (corrected) "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) Ch. XIV 78. Here, however, what is called materiality of the heart is 'physical basis, not door' (see DhsA. 82f.); the two intimations are 'door, not physical basis'; sensitive matter is 'both physical basis and door'; the rest are 'neither physical basis nor door'. So it is of four kinds according to the physical basis tetrad. 33028 From: Sukinderpal Singh Narula Date: Sat May 15, 2004 4:43am Subject: Formal Sitting or Natural Arising? (was: Re: Video Games?) Hi Ken H, > >Ken: I think the answer is slowly dawning on me! I think you and > Sarah > > have been telling me that pariyatti (which, strictly speaking, knows > > only concepts) always has panna if only of the kind that knows > > kusala from akusala. We don't need to speculate on which exact > > citta panna arises in -- in between cittas that conceptualise the > > Dhamma there may be moments in which panna takes paramattha > dhamma > > as object. So, pariyatti and patipatti go hand in hand. > > I am not sure, but sometime back I had the thought that if after > conceptually considering the Dhamma, there follows a sense of > detachment, it may be because there is weak level of insight into > anicca, dukkha or anatta. Do you think am I exaggerating? :-( Sukin: I asked K. Sujin about this. But as often is the case, I had my own attachments to deal with, so I am not sure that her message came through to me as intended. She tried to show me my attachment and all the while I was struggling against it in the name of `wanting to get the facts right'. In the end my understanding is that if there is any `sati' of= a paramattha dhamma, then panna must *know* it, at least enough to know the difference between this and when there is not this kind of sati. I wondered, and Ivan seemed to have the same idea too, whether if the strength of sati was a matter of number of moments following or the intensity of the particular citta. My reason for asking was to find out if = perhaps one or a few cittas arose with paramattha dhamma as object, only because it was so fleeting that doubt and other realities followed to = hide the fact. She then pointed to whether doubt was known or it was `thinking about doubt'. Then she also showed us the difference between thinking about realities and thinking about thinking….!! :-/ Anyway, why struggle to get a definite answer. How is this going to help? If there is no sati to know the difference between dhamma and concept, then we have a long, long way to go. Besides, the path is about "development", not about getting results. And the goal every moment is to be detached. But `lobha' is all the time ready to lead us off = track, that even the idea of detachment can be taken by the self to involve `letting go'. So many potential traps and so fortunate we are to have good friends show them to us, isn't it? :-) Metta, Sukin 33029 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat May 15, 2004 8:10am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Pannatti (Concept) Victor --- yu_zhonghao wrote: > Hi Jon, > > Thank you for providing the notes. > > So given the notes you provided, does that mean that breaths are not > bodily fabrications? > > Metta, > Victor Well I don’t think the notes I provided shed much light on kaya-sankhara. What they suggest is that the 3-fold meaning of sankhara as kaaya-s, vacii-s and citta-s has no particular connection to sankhara in its more usual meaning of the five aggregates/all conditioned dhammas. However, if you see a connection to my original statement (The dhammas/five aggregates spoken of in the suttas do not include 'breath'), I'd be happy to hear it. Regarding sankhara as the 3-fold classification of kaaya-sankhara/the bodily formation (elaborated as being in-and-out breathing), vacii-sankhara/the verbal formation (applied thought and sustained thought) and citta-sankhara/the mental formation (perception and feeling), I know only what appears in your quote from M. 44. I believe the sutta goes on to mention how these 3 sankhara are relevant to the attainment of cessation. Jon 33030 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat May 15, 2004 8:19am Subject: Re: [dsg] Philip, Dhammasangani and war on web Nina I enjoyed this post a lot, especially the passage from the Expositor. Like Lodewijk, I wanted to read it again! Thanks. Jon --- nina van gorkom wrote: > Dear Philip, Icaro, Azita and all, ... We read in the Co to the Dhmsg, the Expositor (p. 100): I read part of this to Lodewijk at luncheon, but he likes it so much that I have to read it again at dinner. This is stimulating talk from Buddhaghosa. 33031 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat May 15, 2004 8:31am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Anapanasati Sutta (again) Icaro --- icarofranca wrote: > Hi Jon ... ----------------------------------------------------------- > > > Jon: > > Yes, this is interesting. Thanks. > > ---------------------------------------------------------- > > Don't fret, sir! > Reading carefully the Anapasati Sutta gives you not only sound > doctrine but it is better than Valium or Prozac! HAHAHAHAHAH!!!! Sounds like you're speaking from experience there ;-)). Of course, there was no question of anyone falling asleep in the circumstances of the Anapanasati Sutta. The monks to whom the sutta was delivered contained 'many well-known elder disciples' including Vens. Sariputta, Maha Moggallana, Maha Kassapa, Maha Kaccana, Maha Kotthita, Maha Kappina, Maha Cunda, Revata, Ananda (and other well-known elder disciples too!). The Buddha described the assembly as the sort of assembly that 'it is rare to see in the world, the sort of assembly that it would be worth traveling for leagues, taking along provisions, in order to see'. Jon 33032 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Sat May 15, 2004 8:46am Subject: [dsg] Re: Pannatti (Concept) Hi Jon, So are breaths bodily fabrications or not? Metta, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Victor > > --- yu_zhonghao wrote: > Hi Jon, > > > > Thank you for providing the notes. > > > > So given the notes you provided, does that mean that breaths are > not > > bodily fabrications? > > > > Metta, > > Victor > > Well I don't think the notes I provided shed much light on > kaya-sankhara. What they suggest is that the 3-fold meaning of > sankhara as kaaya-s, vacii-s and citta-s has no particular connection > to sankhara in its more usual meaning of the five aggregates/all > conditioned dhammas. > > However, if you see a connection to my original statement (The > dhammas/five aggregates spoken of in the suttas do not include > 'breath'), I'd be happy to hear it. > > Regarding sankhara as the 3-fold classification of kaaya- sankhara/the > bodily formation (elaborated as being in-and-out breathing), > vacii-sankhara/the verbal formation (applied thought and sustained > thought) and citta-sankhara/the mental formation (perception and > feeling), I know only what appears in your quote from M. 44. I > believe the sutta goes on to mention how these 3 sankhara are > relevant to the attainment of cessation. > > Jon 33033 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sat May 15, 2004 11:07am Subject: Re: [dsg] Htoo, Hetu Paccaya Initiation. Dear Htoo, I just add a few things little by little. I like the rupas being branches at the tree!! I try to put myself in the average reader's mind, the reader who is somewhat impatient and critical of Abhidhamma, who thinks of it as a dry set of concepts that cannot be verified in life. We want to make Abhidhamma come to life for them, don't we? Sarah posted here a whole page which is rather compact. I think afterwards you will explain about the hetus in life, I know you do. I remember what you wrote about the cetasikas as good or bad advisers of citta, the minister. But I would suggest that for the sake of the average reader you illustrate and explain about hetus already after each paragraph, or after a few sentences. The reader may not understand things and stop reading soon. Some readers may not know about classifications, it may all be new to them. They may stumble on all the terms that are used. Also, it may be better to post a quarter of a page at a time, because with the explanations it would be enough for one post at a time. The reader gets confused very soon when there are terms he does not understand. The Abhidhamma is very precious, very beneficial. We should give it spoonful by spoonful, very gently. What do you think about this? I try to add a little, but I think even this may be already too much for the reader. > --- htootintnaing wrote: > Htoo - PATTHANA DHAMMA > Lobha, dosa, and moha are called akusala hetus and alobha, adosa, and > amoha are called kusala hetus. These latter 3 hetus if they arise with > abyakata dhamma they are called abyakata hetus. N: For some people it is useful to explain again what is abyaakata: these are neither kusala nor akusala. In the Patthana all dhammas are classified in a triple classification: kusala dhamma, akusala dhamma and abyaakata dhamma. In the case of abyaakata hetus: they arise with vipaakacitta and with the kiriyacitta of the arahat. As to abyaakata roots, these are always sobhana. The arahat has instead of kusala cittas kiriyacittas accompanied by beautiful roots. Some vipakacittas are ahetuka (as you state below) and some are sahetuka. The rupa-jhana and arupa-jhana vipakacittas are always accompanied by three roots, by alobha, adosa and amoha or panna. As to sahetuka vipakacitta of the sense-sphere, rebirth-consciousness may be accompanied by non-attachment and non-aversion, or by non-attachment, non-aversion and panna, depending on the kamma which produced it. Thus, this shows that people are born with different capacities. All bhavanga-cittas (life-continuum) and the dying-consciousness are of the same type of citta. If a person is born with panna and he cultivates panna during his life he may be able to attain jhana or enlightenment. Hetus or roots influence our whole life. When we think, speak, write, read, walk, whatever we do, hetus arise with the citta. They arise at this moment and they are more often akusala hetus, unwholesome roots than kusala hetus, wholesome roots. Nina. 33034 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sat May 15, 2004 11:07am Subject: Re: [dsg]to Sukin, action, non-action. Dear Sukin, op 14-05-2004 11:39 schreef Sukinderpal Singh Narula op sukinder@k...: > Yes I used to think that because we concentrate more on getting the > facts right, little attention is given to other forms of kusala, so that at > any given moment, that NAGs would appear less `religious' than other > Buddhists. N: Lodewijk cautions me time and again and he is afraid that certain phrases may create misunderstandings. We discussed together for example the present moment, thinking of a story, the word story, etc. Also non-action. He thinks this term rather unfortunate. Of course I know what you mean. At the Dhamma sessions we hear what we had not heard before on satipatthana and anatta. The development of satipatthana is very subtle, we have to listen, consider and absorb it. We have to hear about paramattha dhammas so that we cling less to self. We learn more about our many vices and faults. A. Sujin helps us to see how deeply rooted clinging to self is. When we are listening and discussing it may seem to newcomers that there is little attention to all the other kinds of kusala in daily life, but in fact, satipatthana inspires to so many, many ways of kusala. Kusala with less self-involvement. To avoid akusala, to perform kusala and to purify the mind, this saying of the Dhammapada is often quoted. But through satipatthana there can be purification of the mind, and this is necessary to avoid akusala and to perform kusala. Satipatthana does not lead to non-action, no, on the contrary. A. Sujin visits the sick, just like the Buddha, pays attention to people's needs, thinks of making them happy, also in many small ways, she often goes to cremations to confort bereaved people. I just recommended her to Philip. It is on Zolag. I heard from her: feeling tired is just clinging to self. My last day in Bgk she encouraged me, saying, when doing more kusala the body gets stronger. Lodewijk said, why does Sukin speak of non-action, he is a very compassionate and active person. People who do not know you may get the wrong picture of you. I know that you help others with great generosity. We have to learn to apply the Dhamma in our social life and many of my friends give good examples. I hope you can make it to India so that we can discuss these things. Can we not ban the word NAG? Let us give each other stimulating talk for all sorts of kusala!!! Of course understanding is always needed so that we learn not to take it for self. Nina. 33035 From: Philip Date: Sat May 15, 2004 3:03pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Philip: my vacation Hello Nina and all This morning I realized that the next chapter in Buddhism in Daily Life is "mental development" and that I could have found the answer to the question I posted here. One should always take a look at the table of contents when setting out on a book I guess! I found this: "Studying the Buddha's teachings and explaining them to others is kusala kamma included in bhavana..(snip)..Teaching dhamma to other people is kusala kamma of a high degree. In this way one not only helps others to have more understanding about their life one develops one's own understanding as well. Teaching Dhamma is the most effective way of helping other people to develop kusala and to eradicate kusala." So I think this is what you were referring to when you wrote that helping others is included in bhavana. I will be writing more about this in the other thread when I have time but for now I wanted to spare you from the need to answer the question below. Thanks again for everything. I am feeling very rooted in my dhamma study these days. The last lines of Chapter 6: "We take our refuge in the Buddha when we have confidence in his teachings and we consider it the most important thing in life to practice what he taught." This is certainly true in my case these days so I suppose I may have taken refuge in some way without having formally done so. Metta Phil --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Philip" wrote: > > Hello Nina, and all > > I will look for that book, Nina. As it happens, I was just > reading the chapter on wholeseome deeds in Buddhism in Daily Life and > a question arose. The chapter ends with this: "Helping other people > with kind words and deeds alone is not enough. When it is the right > moment we can help other in a deeper and more effective way, that is, > helping them to understand who they are, why they are in this world > and what the aim of their life in this world is. This way of helping > is included in bhavana or mental development." In another thread, you > spoke of the gift we can give others by encouraging them towards an > understanding of kusala and akusala andI will be responding to that > thread tonight, but right now I only have time to ask about the end > of the above sentence. In what way is this way of helping included in > bhavana? 33036 From: Andrew Date: Sat May 15, 2004 4:38pm Subject: Re: The Practical View of Anatta Hello Suravira --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Suravira" wrote: > Hello Andrew, > > Sorry about the delay in my response, but I have been very busy > assisting my clients - feduciary responsibilities take precidence. I understand. I see from your other posts that you are very busy with projects and I wish you success with them. [snip] > [Suravira] I suspect that the intellectual rebellion is fired by > fear - that the intellectual rebellion is merely a symptom of an > underlying fear - an emotion. While it is sometimes convenient to > consider intellect, and emotions as uncoupled, it is my view that > the two are tightly integrated and interdependent. > > When our sense of self is recognized, or even glimpsed, as being > false (in any aspect), the typical response is (fear, or more > accurately) FEAR. [Andrew] I see what you are saying and tend to agree. However, in Abhidhamma terms, 'fear' may equate, at least in part, to the cetasika 'uddhacca' or 'restlessness' which "has the characteristic of disquietude, like water whipped up by the wind" (CMA p 83). As far as I can see, there is no actual mental factor translated as 'fear'. I think the restlessness/agitation would be primarily conditioned by moha (delusion). I think you make a very valid point about interdependence, too. When intellectually studying Dhamma, we are very much 'unscrambling an omelette' and should always remember that. We are dissecting an integrated process as an aid to directly experiencing it. > [Suravira] .. analytical contemplation is an important process. > However, that process is subordinate to direct realization of anatta > through the practice of bhavana. [Andrew] I agree but would avoid using a word like 'subordinate' as it has connotations of the forceful arranging of a conditioned process. I look at the definition of 'pariyatti' in Nyanatiloka's Buddhist Dictionary including " ... (1) learning the wording of the doctrine (pariyatti), (2) practising it (patipatti), (3) penetrating it (pativedha) and realising its goal ..." I think some people (not you) skip (1) - perhaps believing it is subordinate to practice and penetration - but, in so doing, miss the goal completely. [snip]> [Suravira] Hmmm. Consider that the experience of a perception of > being in time/space is not a concept - it is an intimate matter of > life and death. The 5 khandhas is merely a model, an abstract > representation, of the experience. [Andrew] Any description using language will just be an abstract representation of a process, will not be penetration. But are you saying that there is something *more than* the 5 khandhas in the present moment? Didn't the Buddha describe them as "the all"? [snip]> [Suravira] Well, on the upside, such great doubt can prove to be a > strong motivating factor for engaging in the practice of bhavana. [Andrew] Seeing doubt for what it is can be conducive to the arising of wisdom. But doubt itself is proximately caused by unwise attention. You mention "practice" as a noun. Don't you think that, in English, it carries heavy connotations of *someone* practising? I'd be interested to hear how you explain to seekers this idea of action but no actor ie anatta. With Best Wishes Andrew 33037 From: htootintnaing Date: Sat May 15, 2004 4:52pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Htoo, Hetu Paccaya Initiation. Dear Nina, Thanks for your suggestion. It is the best idea that you give. I once experienced the events as you said. Once I explain dhamma to people when conditions are suitable like new year day, vesak day, abhidhamma day, and so on. Sometimes we had got face to face discussion. As you said when there are a lot of new terminology, the listeners became tired of words and said, 'Thanks Htoo. These are good but we have to be familiar with these big words.' Once, I experienced a man went rebound. That is when he was told that was good thing and that was bad thing. At first he was delighted and complied with dhamma. But at a time when he was released from dhamma, he himself think he was freed and liberated and then he did all he wanted. That is rebound. It is time management and time allotment. So now I just put all as packed as possible and put them on the net and just link them. When there arise questions then I will take that apportunity. I understand that abhidhamma is precious and it should reflect our daily life. Yes, we all should try it to reflect daily life. Asevana paccaya is one of my favourite paccaya. When I first read English version of dhamma for the reason to communicate dhamma friends of different nationalities and different cultures, I found difficult. Because I faced many new words even though I knew most of them in Myanmar or in Pali. But as in asevana paccaya, that if one thing is repeatedly done, the first done and the second done and the third done will not be the same even though all are the same but successively much much more proficient, precious, valuable and so on. If a statue is sprayed with fragnance, later and later spray cause much much more sweeter smell. In learning, repeated studying also add to easy understandability. If the letters A to Z are not known, it will be almost impossible to teach advanced grammar. I know that. But I will try if time permits. Thanks for your kind wish. And If there anything I made wrong, please let me be aware of it. All I did will not be perfect. Because most were released after single check. And my pages 'Patthana Dhamma' are not teaching. They are just discussion as I intend. Cetasikas and ministers were just my idea. But this may probably arose from my past reading possibly which I forgot. I wrote in that style and once someone told me that it is written in 'Atthasalini'. This time branches and leaves are my idea. But roots are in Tipitaka. Thanks again keeping in contact. With Metta, Htoo Naing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: Dear Htoo, I just add a few things little by little. I like the rupas being branches at the tree!! I try to put myself in the average reader's mind, the reader who is somewhat impatient and critical of Abhidhamma, who thinks of it as a dry set of concepts that cannot be verified in life. We want to make Abhidhamma come to life for them, don't we? Sarah posted here a whole page which is rather compact. I think afterwards you will explain about the hetus in life, I know you do. I remember what you wrote about the cetasikas as good or bad advisers of citta, the minister. But I would suggest that for the sake of the average reader you illustrate and explain about hetus already after each paragraph, or after a few sentences. The reader may not understand things and stop reading soon. Some readers may not know about classifications, it may all be new to them. They may stumble on all the terms that are used. Also, it may be better to post a quarter of a page at a time, because with the explanations it would be enough for one post at a time. The reader gets confused very soon when there are terms he does not understand. The Abhidhamma is very precious, very beneficial. We should give it spoonful by spoonful, very gently. What do you think about this? I try to add a little, but I think even this may be already too much for the reader. 33038 From: htootintnaing Date: Sat May 15, 2004 5:21pm Subject: Hetu Paccaya Initiation ( 01 ) Dear Dhamma Friends, This is to expand or to explain the message on the page 30 from the site that I put in. It is http://www.geocities.com/htootintnaing/patthana1.html From 1st page to 29th page are all about paramattha dhamma to some detail but in a compact form. Page 30 is Hetu Paccaya just initiated. With Metta, Htoo Naing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- PATTHANA DHAMMA 30 Hetu paccaya or root conditions are one of patthana paccayas. They are one of 24 conditions that can be seen in patthana dhamma. There are 6 roots or 6 hetus. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Htoo: Hetu here needs to be explained for average readers. Hetu originally means a cause, reason , condition and paccaya also means support, reason, cause , ground. But later hetu is refered to mula or root condition. There are 6 mulas or 6 roots or 6 hetus.Mula = root = hetu Because as in the case of a tree, root support the whole tree by giving nutrition, supplying minerals and water from the ground and root totally support the whole tree and if roots are eradicated that is they are derooted then the whole tree has to die. In dhamma that behave like root are 6 dhamma. They are called 6 hetus. 6 mulas. 6 roots. The condition related to this support system is called root condition or 'hetu paccaya'. This support system is working among paramattha dhamma that is citta, cetasika, rupa and nibbana. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- All these 6 roots or 6 mulas or 6 hetus are cetasika dhamma. These cetasikas are 1.lobha,2.dosa, 3.moha, 4.alobha, 5.adosa, and 6.amoha. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Htoo: They have appeared in 'Cetasika As Designers Or Helpers (01 ) to ( 06 ) earlier in this list. To short, lobha is a cetasika that have strong attractive power and it is craving. It is like thirsty. As long as thirsty, drinking will not be stopped if water or fluid is available. This means lobha will never be in satiety. Dosa is a cetasika which has hurting in nature. Anger, fury, hatred, aversion, repent, jealousy, stingy, envy, are all have hurting in nature. But not all dosa have repent or jealousy or stinginess, each of which has another quality other than dosa. Moha is like a blind looking for a colour. He will never see a colour. Moha will never see wisdom and wisdom-related dhamma because he is blind. Blind are in the dark. Moha is dark. Moha is ignorance. Moha is delusion. moha is illusion. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ 33039 From: htootintnaing Date: Sat May 15, 2004 5:45pm Subject: Hetu Paccaya Initiation ( 02 ) PATTHANA DHAMM 30 Hetu paccaya or root conditions are one of patthana paccaya. They are one of 24 conditions that can be seen in patthana dhamma. There are 6 roots or 6 hetus. All these 6 roots or hetus are cetasika dhamma. They are lobha, dosa, moha, alobha, adosa, and amoha. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Htoo: Alobha is a cetasika. It is non-attachment. When we have a good chance to offer that is when we have enough for ourselves and there are oversufficient properties and when there happen to offer when the receivers are already at hand then we all do offering. Even when we do not have enough for ourselve we still do offering whenever we have a good chance to offer. At that time, there is no attachment to the properties-to-be-released at least if our offering are pure. We will feel happy as we are doing kusala or wholesome thing. That releasing or that detachment that is non-attachment is alobha cetasika. It can be also called dana or offering. But non-attachment will be much more appropriate. Adosa is a cetasika. It is non-hurting nature. When we want people healthy we have adosa cetasika. This can be seen in case of parents who have children and who do not have any disease. But parent still have non-hurting mind adosa on their children as 'may they be healthy'. Adosa can also be called metta. But adosa will be much more appropriate for any case. Amoha is one of 6 hetus or 6 mulas or 6 roots. It is pannindriya cetasika. Panna is wisdom. Indriya is faculty. Pannindriya is the faculty of wisdom. As there is panna or wisdom, it can throw light into any matter to be seen clearly. It is opposite of moha. So it is called amoha. It can also be called panna. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Lobha, dosa, and moha are called akusala hetus and alobha, adosa, and amoha are called kusala hetus. These latter 3 hetus if they arise with abyakata dhamma they are called abyakata hetus. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Htoo: Abyakata are dhamma that are not akusala nor kusala dhamma. So vipaka are all abyakata dhamma. Kiriya are all abyakata dhamma. Vipaka are resultant dhamma. If we offered much in our past lives, we own a good kamma and that kamma can give rise us richness. When we are rich, that richness is vipaka. In terms of citta, if we did good in our past lives for example if we refrained from killing in our past lives, we will be disease-less and live long in this life and future if kamma give their effect. When effects come, all those effects are called vipaka. What we see now, what we hear now and smell, taste, touch now are all vipaka. Kiriya are dhamma that are just performance without any kamma potentials. All the actions of arahats are kiriya. When arahats are conscious that is awake all they do, all they speak, all they think are all just performing and their actions do not give rise to future kamma in this life or any future life. So all are kiriya. when they are in bhvanga cittas that is while they are sleeping and while they are not actively doing, speraking, thinking they will be in bhavanga cittas and these bhavanga cittas are vipaka cittas. Vipaka cittas arise in both arahats and non-arahats. But kiriya cittas arise only in arahats. Both vipaka and kiriya cittas are abyakata dhamma. That is they do not have future kamma potentials. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ 33040 From: Sukinderpal Singh Narula Date: Sat May 15, 2004 7:30pm Subject: Re: [dsg]to Sukin, action, non-action. Dear Nina and All, > Can we not ban the word NAG? Let us give each other stimulating talk for all sorts > of kusala!!! Of course understanding is always needed so that we learn not > to take it for self. I don't know about banning, but I will not use the term, and I am sure others who read this post will also do the same. :-) Actually, when Ken O first proposed it, I had some reservations and he too probably would have discontinued using it, were it not for my own and others' repeated use of the term. In fact when Victor posted regarding `right effort' with reference to NAGs, at that time I wanted to propose a change of this to perhaps NFPG (non formal practice group). But this is another label, and generally I have a bit of reservation with regards to labels. Of course most of us use NAG just for convenience, but as you say, it can create misunderstanding in others. And I would even go on to suggest that because the development of sati and panna is still so very weak, that unreflecting use of any term at all, may have a negative influence even on myself. Lobha is so pervasive; any identification with a group or method of study or practice will easily become its object. And the result may be that we become very one-sided. I do believe quite firmly that only panna can condition what is right, and that without it, any idea of developing kusala will be taken by `self' as something `to do'. I also believe that if the practice is correct, then all kinds of kusala will also be developed, and if one insists so much on Rt. View and anatta but at the same time other kusala is not being developed, then I must question if indeed the practice is right. What we all can never have enough of, is reminders about all kinds of kusala, particularly the reference to the parami. So Nina, thanks for all your good reminders and do continue with them, I also very much appreciate remarks Lodewijk makes, and please convey my thanks to him. :-) With regard to India, I do wish I could go. However the timing is not good for me. But conditions rule, so who knows what it will favour. :-) Metta, Sukin. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > Dear Sukin, > op 14-05-2004 11:39 schreef Sukinderpal Singh Narula op sukinder@k...: > > > Yes I used to think that because we concentrate more on getting the > > facts right, little attention is given to other forms of kusala, so that at > > any given moment, that NAGs would appear less `religious' than other > > Buddhists. > N: Lodewijk cautions me time and again and he is afraid that certain phrases > may create misunderstandings. We discussed together for example the present > moment, thinking of a story, the word story, etc. Also non-action. He thinks > this term rather unfortunate. > Of course I know what you mean. At the Dhamma sessions we hear what we had > not heard before on satipatthana and anatta. The development of satipatthana > is very subtle, we have to listen, consider and absorb it. We have to hear > about paramattha dhammas so that we cling less to self. We learn more about > our many vices and faults. A. Sujin helps us to see how deeply rooted > clinging to self is. When we are listening and discussing it may seem to > newcomers that there is little attention to all the other kinds of kusala in > daily life, but in fact, satipatthana inspires to so many, many ways of > kusala. Kusala with less self-involvement. To avoid akusala, to perform > kusala and to purify the mind, this saying of the Dhammapada is often > quoted. But through satipatthana there can be purification of the mind, and > this is necessary to avoid akusala and to perform kusala. > Satipatthana does not lead to non-action, no, on the contrary. A. Sujin > visits the sick, just like the Buddha, pays attention to people's needs, > thinks of making them happy, also in many small ways, she often goes to > cremations to confort bereaved people. I just recommended her Deeds> to Philip. It is on Zolag. > I heard from her: feeling tired is just clinging to self. My last day in Bgk > she encouraged me, saying, when doing more kusala the body gets stronger. > Lodewijk said, why does Sukin speak of non-action, he is a very > compassionate and active person. People who do not know you may get the > wrong picture of you. I know that you help others with great generosity. We > have to learn to apply the Dhamma in our social life and many of my friends > give good examples. > I hope you can make it to India so that we can discuss these things. Can we > not ban the word NAG? Let us give each other stimulating talk for all sorts > of kusala!!! Of course understanding is always needed so that we learn not > to take it for self. > Nina. 33041 From: Gabriel Nunes Laera Date: Sat May 15, 2004 9:45pm Subject: Re: [dsg]Bus, questions and a nice Sunday! Icaro, Thank you very much for your recommendations in studying Suttas related to the Buddhist Economics.And I invite anyone who is interested in such subject to help me developing a more profound study on this pratical potential of Dhamma. The bus number is 382, you can get it every forty-five minutes on copacabana's beach from 8 am to 22 pm. This used to be the bus I used to catch. I have a simple question about buddhist culture (if I can call it so!): How is seen marriage and relationship between a lay man and a lay woman from the buddhist perspective and culture.I would like you to understand thsi doubt since I live in a country where I have any contact with buddhist immigrants family, and after studying buddhism and its philosophy I do feel much more comfortable to think of sharing a lay-buddhist life with someone who at least understand and respect what I believe and practice. Have a nice Sunday you all! Metta, Gabriel Laera ICQ:56458224 MSN Messenger: zopatenzin@h... "Evitar todo o mal,cultivar o bem,purificar a própria mente: esse é o Ensinamento dos Buddhas." Dhp 183. ----Original Message Follows---- From: "icarofranca" Reply-To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [dsg] Hello from Brazil Date: Wed, 12 May 2004 16:36:06 -0000 Caro Gabriel!!! (I will try to keep a bilingual communication to benefit all members of this group) > I hope I can learn a lot from you in this group, and I invite any interested > in helping me with the "Buddhist Economics"! Gabriel, eu li com interesse o web site que você indicou e gostei muito. Ainda está incompleto mas o fato de ter como membro um monge do Butão é uma garantia de boa e legítima linhagem Kagyu, muito mais do que atualmente no Tibete! Gabriel, I've read with interest the Web site you recommend and I liked it very much. It's still incomplete but just the fact to keep a Bhutan's Monk is a good, sound and legitimate Kagyu tradition guarantee, better that one can find nowadays at Tibet! "Economia Budista"... se você pensar em economia como um nivel de commodities com flutuações para mais ou para menos, você começara a perceber que o Caminho do Meio Budista encontra também tais aplicações. Na escola theravada existem suttas que tratam de tais problemas ( como um rei deve gerenciar seu reino, como a guerra deve ser conduzida para nào prejudicar a economia - cf. o Mahavamsa, que mesmo não sendo exatamente do Cânon clássico, tem passagens interessantes sobre estes assuntos! - e muito mais). "Buddhist Economics"... if you begin to think out Economics as a certain comoddities' level with deviations and fluctuations for more and for less, you will perceive that the Noble Middle Path has also such applications. At Theravada Canon you will find many suttas about these questions ( How a King ought to manage his kingdom, how war must be conducted without harm economics - Cf. The Mahavamsa: despite the fact it is not at classical canon, it has interesting quotes about these issues! - and more) <.......> 33042 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat May 15, 2004 10:29pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Pannatti (Concept) Victor --- yu_zhonghao wrote: > Hi Jon, > > So are breaths bodily fabrications or not? > > Metta, > Victor As I have already acknowledged, in the context of the 3-fold sankhara (bodily, verbal and mental), in-and-out breathing is the bodily sankhara. And as I've also mentioned, I don't see any contradiction between this and my original statement that 'breath' is not one of the dhammas that constitute the five aggregates. Jon 33043 From: Andrew Date: Sat May 15, 2004 11:23pm Subject: Re: The Practical View of Anatta Dear Suravira The very last question to you in my previous post - about anatta - sounds a bit daft given that we were originally discussing your alternative definition of "false views of individuality". This time, however, I am trying to leave the succinct definitions behind and ask you about how you see the process of "experience" operating without a self. It seems to me that Abhidhamma is a systematic dissection of that process and how it works. True, there needs to be reflection on this and ultimately, direct experience of it. But anyway, how do *you* explain the working of the process to people who are new to anatta? Thought I best explain myself. (Crawls back under rock). Best wishes again Andrew 33044 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sat May 15, 2004 11:39pm Subject: Kilesa (defilements) Dear Group, Lately a few things have made me realise how different individuals can have completely different reactions to the same phenomena. Recently, a person had a strong reaction to a post elsewhere, and I couldn't see a connection between what was being discussed and what the person was aggressively saying in response. This set me thinking again about the Kilesa (Defilements) and how they really rule our lives. "The kilesas are there in the heart, and Dhamma is there also, all mixed up; it depends on circumstances which one dominates at any one time. These kilesas are there in the heart all the time, and so they are continually flowing out and displaying themselves in action, speech and thought. In fact, we could say that the average person is almost entirely the kilesas. It is not that sometimes they are there and sometimes they are not - they are there all the time, colouring our outlook, causing our understanding to be deluded. Our basic perceptions of the world, other people, ourselves, religion and endless other things are all distorted, because they all come under the baneful influence of kilesas." http://www.fsnewsletter.net/36/wisdom.htm The first consideration is always 'what to do?' and 'how to do it?' - but, I was taught a long time ago on this List, that those questions are "wrongly put", that the emphasis in the suttas is on knowing all dhammas as they truly are, and that there is no recipe or technique for eradicating the kilesas. (I'm quoting Jon, I think?) metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- 33045 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Sat May 15, 2004 11:53pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Pannatti (Concept) Hi Jon, So breath, in-&-out breathing, is bodily fabrication. Is in-&-out breathing, a bodily fabrication, inconstant, dukkha, not self? Metta, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Victor > > --- yu_zhonghao wrote: > Hi Jon, > > > > So are breaths bodily fabrications or not? > > > > Metta, > > Victor > > As I have already acknowledged, in the context of the 3-fold sankhara > (bodily, verbal and mental), in-and-out breathing is the bodily > sankhara. > > And as I've also mentioned, I don't see any contradiction between > this and my original statement that 'breath' is not one of the > dhammas that constitute the five aggregates. > > Jon 33046 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Sun May 16, 2004 0:19am Subject: Re: Kilesa (defilements) Hi Christine and all, The way to eradicate defilements is the Noble Eightfold Path. Just knowing the unwholesome/unskillful that take place is not enough. "What to do (to eradicate defilements, to abandon the unskillful)?" and "How to eradicate defilements, abandon the unskillful?" are valid and relevant questions. Metta, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Dear Group, > > Lately a few things have made me realise how different individuals > can have completely different reactions to the same phenomena. > Recently, a person had a strong reaction to a post elsewhere, and I > couldn't see a connection between what was being discussed and what > the person was aggressively saying in response. > > This set me thinking again about the Kilesa (Defilements) and how > they really rule our lives. > > "The kilesas are there in the heart, and Dhamma is there also, all > mixed up; it depends on circumstances which one dominates at any one > time. These kilesas are there in the heart all the time, and so they > are continually flowing out and displaying themselves in action, > speech and thought. In fact, we could say that the average person is > almost entirely the kilesas. It is not that sometimes they are there > and sometimes they are not - they are there all the time, colouring > our outlook, causing our understanding to be deluded. Our basic > perceptions of the world, other people, ourselves, religion and > endless other things are all distorted, because they all come under > the baneful influence of kilesas." > http://www.fsnewsletter.net/36/wisdom.htm > > The first consideration is always 'what to do?' and 'how to do > it?' - but, I was taught a long time ago on this List, that those > questions are "wrongly put", that the emphasis in the suttas is on > knowing all dhammas as they truly are, and that there is no recipe > or technique for eradicating the kilesas. (I'm quoting Jon, I > think?) > > metta and peace, > Christine > ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- 33047 From: Sarah Date: Sun May 16, 2004 0:44am Subject: Re: [dsg] Kilesa (defilements) Hi Christine, S: Just quickly passing by on return from a trip to the beach* on a very hot and sunny day here: --- christine_forsyth wrote: > The first consideration is always 'what to do?' and 'how to do > it?' - but, I was taught a long time ago on this List, that those > questions are "wrongly put", that the emphasis in the suttas is on > knowing all dhammas as they truly are, and that there is no recipe > or technique for eradicating the kilesas. (I'm quoting Jon, I > think?) ..... S: I just checked Jon’s recipe quotes in escribe and found this 'gem' (imho of course) which maybe what you have in mind: http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/m18655.html Jon: >My sense of the teachings is that the path to the goal of enlightenment lies in the development of insight into presently arising realities (dhammas). It is by the arising of this insight(wisdom/understanding) that the kilesas such as ego, fear, desire and so on that you mention are weakened and, upon attaining enlightenment, finally eradicated. So we could think of the weakening of the kilesas as in a sense a by-product of the development of insight, as something the pace and order of which is not of our choosing. I mention this because I have noticed that many people seem to hold the view that 'practice' has to do with effort directed towards the reduction of kilesas, and that progress in the development of insight is to be measured by the extent to which the kilesas are absent. Now, the eradication of the kilesas is of course something mentioned frequently in the suttas, including as 1 of the benefits/advantages of the development of insight. In terms of the actual path, however, the emphasis to my reading is on knowing all dhammas as they truly are. There is no recipe or technique given for reducing (in the sense of eradicating) the kilesas as such. I suspect that many people would also regard the aspiration to have more kusala and less akusala as itself kusala, but this is not necessarily so; it could just as easily be our old friends conceit(mana) and wrong view (ditthi) popping up again.< ***** S: I know he and others will be happy to pick the thread up again if there are any further comments. Metta, Sarah * a bit of good luck/kusala vipaka (??) - After swimming and changing on the beach, we went off by bus to the nearest village for lunch. I realised I'd lost an ear-ring. After lunch, poor Jon was dragged back to the by-now very crowded beach to have a quick look for it. Unbelievably, we found it;-). Maybe a few brief moments of kusala vipaka through the eye-door (but who knows?), but far, far more moments of thinking with lots of pleasant feeling about the concepts and stories of the lost and found ear-ring. ====== 33048 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sun May 16, 2004 1:38am Subject: Re: Kilesa (defilements) Hello Victor, and all, It seems there a few categories of kilesa, and differing ways to abandon them - according to the Sabbasava Sutta MN 2 "All the Fermentations" "When a monk's fermentations that should be abandoned by seeing have been abandoned by seeing, his fermentations that should be abandoned by restraining have been abandoned by restraining, his fermentations that should be abandoned by using have been abandoned by using, his fermentations that should be abandoned by tolerating have been abandoned by tolerating, his fermentations that should be abandoned by avoiding have been abandoned by avoiding, his fermentations that should be abandoned by destroying have been abandoned by destroying, his fermentations that should be abandoned by developing have been abandoned by developing, then he is called a monk who dwells restrained with the restraint of all the fermentations. He has severed craving, thrown off the fetters, and -- through the right penetration of conceit -- has made an end of suffering & stress." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/majjhima/mn002.html Do you have any sutta links for Defilements? metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "yu_zhonghao" wrote: > Hi Christine and all, > > The way to eradicate defilements is the Noble Eightfold Path. Just > knowing the unwholesome/unskillful that take place is not enough. > > "What to do (to eradicate defilements, to abandon the unskillful)?" > and "How to eradicate defilements, abandon the unskillful?" are > valid and relevant questions. > > Metta, > Victor 33049 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sun May 16, 2004 1:40am Subject: Re: [dsg] Kilesa (defilements) Hello Sarah, and all, How lovely that you found the ear-ring. :-) It is NOT hot and sunny here - I'm glad you are having days on the beach. Here, the human has a head cold, and the dog has the heater. (He has arthritis). Does the kusala from the good deed outweigh occasionally regretting of it? :-) :-) Yes, that's the post by Jon that I was thinking of. Good one, hey! In the quote to Victor, there is the line - "He has severed craving, thrown off the fetters, and -- through the right penetration of conceit -- has made an end of suffering & stress." Conceit seems to play a large role in everything - even in my hesitating to ask just how, in case you or RobK has explained it in detail before, and I've not retained the memory. :-) Is it that we are only irritated, fearful etc. if we, firstly, have a sense that there is a self, and that the self we feel we have is important? metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > Hi Christine, > > S: Just quickly passing by on return from a trip to the beach* on a very > hot and sunny day here: > > --- christine_forsyth wrote: > > The first consideration is always 'what to do?' and 'how to do > > it?' - but, I was taught a long time ago on this List, that those > > questions are "wrongly put", that the emphasis in the suttas is on > > knowing all dhammas as they truly are, and that there is no recipe > > or technique for eradicating the kilesas. (I'm quoting Jon, I > > think?) > ..... > S: I just checked Jon's recipe quotes in escribe and found this 'gem' > (imho of course) which maybe what you have in mind: > http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/m18655.html > > Jon: >My sense of the teachings is that the path to the goal of > enlightenment lies in the development of insight into presently arising > realities (dhammas). It is by the arising of this > insight(wisdom/understanding) that the kilesas such as ego, fear, desire > and so on that you mention are weakened and, upon attaining enlightenment, > finally eradicated. > > So we could think of the weakening of the kilesas as in a sense a > by-product of the development of insight, as something the pace and order > of which is not of our choosing. > > I mention this because I have noticed that many people seem to hold the > view that 'practice' has to do with effort directed towards the reduction > of kilesas, and that progress in the development of insight is to be > measured by the extent to which the kilesas are absent. > Now, the eradication of the kilesas is of course something mentioned > frequently in the suttas, including as 1 of the benefits/advantages of the > development of insight. In terms of the actual path, however, the > emphasis to my reading is on knowing all dhammas as they truly are. There > is no recipe or technique given for reducing (in the sense of eradicating) > the kilesas as such. > > I suspect that many people would also regard the aspiration to have more > kusala and less akusala as itself kusala, but this is not necessarily so; > it could just as easily be our old friends conceit(mana) and wrong view > (ditthi) popping up again.< > ***** > S: I know he and others will be happy to pick the thread up again if there > are any further comments. > > Metta, 33050 From: robmoult Date: Sun May 16, 2004 1:45am Subject: Re: Kilesa (defilements) Hi Christine and All, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Lately a few things have made me realise how different individuals > can have completely different reactions to the same phenomena. > Recently, a person had a strong reaction to a post elsewhere, and I > couldn't see a connection between what was being discussed and what > the person was aggressively saying in response. > > This set me thinking again about the Kilesa (Defilements) and how > they really rule our lives. > > "The kilesas are there in the heart, and Dhamma is there also, all > mixed up; it depends on circumstances which one dominates at any one > time. These kilesas are there in the heart all the time, and so they > are continually flowing out and displaying themselves in action, > speech and thought. In fact, we could say that the average person is > almost entirely the kilesas. It is not that sometimes they are there > and sometimes they are not - they are there all the time, colouring > our outlook, causing our understanding to be deluded. Our basic > perceptions of the world, other people, ourselves, religion and > endless other things are all distorted, because they all come under > the baneful influence of kilesas." > http://www.fsnewsletter.net/36/wisdom.htm > > The first consideration is always 'what to do?' and 'how to do > it?' - but, I was taught a long time ago on this List, that those > questions are "wrongly put", that the emphasis in the suttas is on > knowing all dhammas as they truly are, and that there is no recipe > or technique for eradicating the kilesas. (I'm quoting Jon, I > think?) If you are focusing on kilesas, you are seeing only half the story. The Abhidhamma explains that the "law of nature" that allows kilesas to influcence our current mental state is called "Natural Decisive Support Condition" (pakatupanissaya). Natural decisive support works as a condition when one of the following factors is present: - Strong past concepts - Strong past citta / cetasika - Strong past rupa "Past" not only includes experiences in the current lifetime, but also experiences from previous lifetimes. A concept, citta / cetasika or rupa can be "strong" when: - It was encountered frequently in the past (a past habit) - It was experienced very recently (bad news in one moment influences your reaction to something else in the next moment) - It was associated with very strong volition in the past (strong past impression or a solemn vow) "Strong past concepts, citta / cetasikas or rupa" are the conditioning factors, natural decisive support is the mode of conditioning, but what is conditioned? The texts explain that all 89 cittas and their associated cetasikas are conditioned. In other words, natural decisive support plays a part in the arising of every mental state. The popular saying that "people are creatures of habit" is true. Christine, you focused on kilesas, but the same law of nature applies to wholesome states as well. If we do metta meditation each morning, our mind naturally reacts with metta throughout the day. If we feel drawn to the Dhamma, it is probably because we studied the Dhamma in a past life and have accumulations to study the Dhamma in this life as well. If we are attracted to a person, it is probably because we have been associated with them in a past life (Yasodhara was the wife of the Buddha in many previous existences). If we have a "talent" in music or art, it is probably because of experience in past lives. There are hundreds of examples in the Suttas and commentaries where the character or circumstances of a person is linked to accumulations from a previous life. The ability to perceive a person's accumulations is one of the unique abilities of a Buddha (Arahants and others do not have this ability). At the time of the Dipankara Buddha, Sumedha the Hermit made a solemn vow that he would become a future Buddha. This solemn vow influenced the Bodhisatta for countless lifetimes. Sariputta and Moggallana were chief disciples of the Buddha and Ananda was the attendant of the Buddha because they had made solemn vows in previous lives that this was the role that they wanted to play. An understanding of how this law of nature called natural decisive support works can be a condition for the creation of kusala kamma: - We should look for opportunities to perform wholesome deeds. This searching for and planning a wholesome deed is, in itself, a wholesome deed. We should ensure that all wholesome deeds are done with strong volition, mindfulness and clear intention. We should review and rejoice in wholesome deeds performed and share the merits of our actions. Each of these activities creates good kamma and good accumulations; a condition to support the performing of more good deeds in the future. - When there is an unwholesome state of mind, we should note it with mindfulness. Seeing an unwholesome state of mind for what it is constitutes a wholesome action. Mindfulness arrests the process of mental proliferation (papa¾ca); the multiplication of unwholesome states of mind. Practicing mindfulness on an unwholesome state of mind weakens the power of the accumulation that conditioned the unwholesome state. - We should understand the potential power of a solemn vow. To increase the potency of the vow, it should be made when the mind is clear and not troubled by restlessness. The creation of kusala kamma will bring pleasant results in the future, but it does not help us to escape from samsara. To escape from samsara, one must develop the accumulation of seeing things as they truly are (nama and rupa) and recognize the three characteristics of realities (anicca, dukkha and anatta). We are often deluded into believing in a "self that has control". Reflecting upon natural decisive support condition supports an understanding of anatta. To draw an analogy, gravity does not "decide" to cause something to fall; gravity is a law of nature. Natural decisive support is also a law of nature. Metta, Rob M :-) 33051 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sun May 16, 2004 2:13am Subject: Re: Kilesa (defilements) Hello RobM :-), and all, Thank you for this post - I'm trying to read about Upanissaya-Paccaya (Decisive Support- Condition)on p. 60 of Nina's "Conditions - An outline of the twenty- four paccaya". I think I recall Sarah discussing this with K. Sujin early this year or late last year - but unfortunately I didn't get the tapes. Maybe Sarah can remember the gist of the discussion? I'll read your post a few times and think it, and Nina's chapter, over - the mental processes are a little slow tonight because of the head cold (who am I kidding? :-)) and I may come back to you tomorrow, if that's O.K. ... metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" wrote: > Hi Christine and All, > > If you are focusing on kilesas, you are seeing only half the story. > The Abhidhamma explains that the "law of nature" that allows kilesas > to influcence our current mental state is called "Natural Decisive > Support Condition" (pakatupanissaya). Natural decisive support works > as a condition when one of the following factors is present: > - Strong past concepts > - Strong past citta / cetasika > - Strong past rupa > > "Past" not only includes experiences in the current lifetime, but > also experiences from previous lifetimes. A concept, citta / cetasika > or rupa can be "strong" when: > - It was encountered frequently in the past (a past habit) > - It was experienced very recently (bad news in one moment influences > your reaction to something else in the next moment) > - It was associated with very strong volition in the past (strong > past impression or a solemn vow) > > "Strong past concepts, citta / cetasikas or rupa" are the > conditioning factors, natural decisive support is the mode of > conditioning, but what is conditioned? The texts explain that all 89 > cittas and their associated cetasikas are conditioned. In other > words, natural decisive support plays a part in the arising of every > mental state. > > The popular saying that "people are creatures of habit" is true. > Christine, you focused on kilesas, but the same law of nature applies > to wholesome states as well. If we do metta meditation each morning, > our mind naturally reacts with metta throughout the day. If we feel > drawn to the Dhamma, it is probably because we studied the Dhamma in > a past life and have accumulations to study the Dhamma in this life > as well. If we are attracted to a person, it is probably because we > have been associated with them in a past life (Yasodhara was the wife > of the Buddha in many previous existences). If we have a "talent" in > music or art, it is probably because of experience in past lives. > > There are hundreds of examples in the Suttas and commentaries where > the character or circumstances of a person is linked to accumulations > from a previous life. The ability to perceive a person's > accumulations is one of the unique abilities of a Buddha (Arahants > and others do not have this ability). > > At the time of the Dipankara Buddha, Sumedha the Hermit made a solemn > vow that he would become a future Buddha. This solemn vow influenced > the Bodhisatta for countless lifetimes. Sariputta and Moggallana were > chief disciples of the Buddha and Ananda was the attendant of the > Buddha because they had made solemn vows in previous lives that this > was the role that they wanted to play. > > An understanding of how this law of nature called natural decisive > support works can be a condition for the creation of kusala kamma: > - We should look for opportunities to perform wholesome deeds. This > searching for and planning a wholesome deed is, in itself, a > wholesome deed. We should ensure that all wholesome deeds are done > with strong volition, mindfulness and clear intention. We should > review and rejoice in wholesome deeds performed and share the merits > of our actions. Each of these activities creates good kamma and good > accumulations; a condition to support the performing of more good > deeds in the future. > - When there is an unwholesome state of mind, we should note it with > mindfulness. Seeing an unwholesome state of mind for what it is > constitutes a wholesome action. Mindfulness arrests the process of > mental proliferation (papa¾ca); the multiplication of unwholesome > states of mind. Practicing mindfulness on an unwholesome state of > mind weakens the power of the accumulation that conditioned the > unwholesome state. > - We should understand the potential power of a solemn vow. To > increase the potency of the vow, it should be made when the mind is > clear and not troubled by restlessness. > > The creation of kusala kamma will bring pleasant results in the > future, but it does not help us to escape from samsara. To escape > from samsara, one must develop the accumulation of seeing things as > they truly are (nama and rupa) and recognize the three > characteristics of realities (anicca, dukkha and anatta). > > We are often deluded into believing in a "self that has control". > Reflecting upon natural decisive support condition supports an > understanding of anatta. To draw an analogy, gravity does > not "decide" to cause something to fall; gravity is a law of nature. > Natural decisive support is also a law of nature. > > Metta, > Rob M :-) 33052 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun May 16, 2004 2:18am Subject: Breath as bodily formation (was, Pannatti (Concept)) Victor Here's where it's necessary to understand the distinction between the different meanings of 'sankhara'. A. Sankhara as all conditioned dhammas. In the context of the statement 'All sankhara are anicca, all sankhara are dukkha, all dhammas anatta', sankhara means all conditioned dhammas. This is meaning No. 4 in Nyanatiloka's 'Buddhist Dictionary' list of meanings -- see below, particularly where it says: "This meaning applies to the well-known passage, "All formations are impermanent... subject to suffering" (sabbe sankhára aniccá ... dukkhá)." B. Sankhara as the bodily-, verbal- and mental-formation. This is meaning No. 2 in the list below. Here the context is 'nirodha-samaapatti', the cessation of perception and feeling. As I'm sure you know, nirodha-samaapatti is (Nyanatiloka's 'Buddhist Dictionary' again): "The temporary suspension of all consciousness and mental activity. The absolutely necessary pre-conditions to its attainment are said to be perfect mastery of all the 8 absorptions, as well as the previous attainment of Anágámi or Arahatship." The context of nirodha-samaapatti can be seen from the passage in M. 44 that follows the one in your quote. The speaker (who is the arahant bhikkhunii Dhammadinnaa) is asked by Visaakha in what order the 3 formations cease when attaining nirodha-samaapatti and she answers (using the MLDB translation): 17. "Friend Visaakha, when a bhikkhu is attaining the cessation of perception and feeling, first the verbal formation ceases, then the bodily formation, then the mental formation." This I take to mean that the function of speech ceases first, then bodily actions (typified by breathing) cease, and finally all mental functions (exemplified by perception and feeling) cease. As I think is clear from the entry from Nyanatiloka's 'Buddhist Dictionary', we cannot just take one of the meanings of sankhara and substitute that in another of the meanings, without understanding exactly what the application is in each case. To my reading, references in the teachings to conditioned dhammas/the five aggregates do not include a specific dhamma of 'breath'. What we take for breath is in fact a number of different conditioned dhammas. It is only these dhammas to which the characteristics of anicca/dukkha/anatta are applicable. Jon *********** Nyanatiloka's 'Buddhist Dictionary' 'Sankhaara': 1. As the 2nd link of the formula of dependent origination, sankhára has the active aspect, 'forming, and signifies karma, i.e. wholesome or unwholesome volitional activity (cetaná) of body (káya-s.), speech (vací-s.) or mind (citta- or mano-s.). 2. The aforementioned three terms, káya-, vací- and citta-s. are sometimes used in quite a different sense, namely as (1) bodily function, i.e. in-and-out-breathing (e.g. M. 10), (2) verbal function, i.e. thought-conception and discursive thinking, (3) mental-function, i.e. feeling and perception (e.g. M. 44). 3. It also denotes the 4th group of existence (sankhárakkhandha), and includes all 'mental formations' whether they belong to 'karmically forming' consciousness or not. 4. It occurs further in the sense of anything formed (sankhata) and conditioned, and includes all things whatever in the world, all phenomena of existence. This meaning applies, e.g. to the well-known passage, "All formations are impermanent... subject to suffering" (sabbe sankhára aniccá ... dukkhá). *********** --- yu_zhonghao wrote: > Hi Jon, > > So breath, in-&-out breathing, is bodily fabrication. > > Is in-&-out breathing, a bodily fabrication, inconstant, dukkha, > not self? > > Metta, > Victor 33053 From: Sarah Date: Sun May 16, 2004 5:08am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Kilesa (defilements) Hi RobM, Chris & All, Rob, your wise comments reminded me of some useful feedback I received from a good friend (off-list) and I hope you may be able to add more. The friend feels that too much is written here by some of us on “no-control” and that perhaps we don’t really ‘live’ in the Dhamma. Actually, the friend’s position reminds me of some of our former discussions about ‘willing’ wholesome states to arise and a live conversation with both of you in Hong Kong and on list. Even though the willing is anatta, it can still appear to arise and ‘will’ sati, panna and so on to arise. The friend gave the example of Ananda who had no more self-view but ‘willed’ sati to arise just before the first council and became an arahant as a result.To suggest there cannot be such willing may even sound like it’s a hopeless cause. Of course, we know as you (Rob) reminded us, that past and present causes are very intricate. Ananda joined the Sangha in the second year of the Buddha’s teachings and spent a considerable amount of time listening to the teachings as well as assisting the Buddha. Of course we also read about the conditions being developed over numerous lifetimes before this in the Jatakas and elsewhere. In the commentary to the Theraagathaa, we read about the zeal and insight that were developed prior to his becoming an arahant the night before the Great Council and the sense of urgency and reminders given to him by the deva (SN9:5 Aananda) and by Maha Kassapa in the Parinibbana Sutta. ..... --- robmoult wrote: > We are often deluded into believing in a "self that has control". > Reflecting upon natural decisive support condition supports an > understanding of anatta. To draw an analogy, gravity does > not "decide" to cause something to fall; gravity is a law of nature. > Natural decisive support is also a law of nature. ... S: This is a good conclusion. Understanding a little more about conditions helps a lot. The momentary arising now of sati and other wholesome states will also condition more of the same in the future, so there is nothing fatalistic about the teaching of anatta. As Kom wrote, ‘without that [the importance of the dhamma now] conditioning the arising of dhamma in the future...then no development of panna/kusala dhamma is possible.’ It should help us to see the urgency and power of present moments of sati, whilst at the same time appreciating that it’s not in anyone’s control. .... ‘The Discourse on the Not-Self characteristic’ (~Naa,namoli transl) ‘Bhikkhus, material form is not self. If material form were self, this material form would not lead to affliction, and it could be had of material form: Let my material form be thus; let my material form be not thus. And it is because material form is not self that it leads to affliction, and that it cannot be had of material form: Let my material form be thus: let my material form be not thus... ‘Feeling is not self... ‘Perception is not self... ‘Formations are not self... Consciousness is not self. If consciousness were self, this consciousness would not lead to affliction and it could be had of consciousness: let my consciousness be thus; let my consciousness be not thus. And it is because consciousness is not self that it therefore leads to affliction, and that it cannot be had of consciousness: Let my consciousnes be thus; let my consciousness be not thus...........’ (Vin, Mv. Kh; cf S.X11,59) ***** S: In other words, dhammas lead to affliction because they are anatta and cannot be willed to be a certain way. If they could be, then Ananda and anyone else would not need to develop satipatthana over countless lifetimes and listen to the teachings again and again. All the wholesome states along with sati and panna, such as right effort, right thinking, right concentration and so on cannot arise just from the wishing or willing, but only by the development of the right conditions. As we know, these conditions are the hearing, considering, applying and the accumulations from past and present. Rob & Chris, I know you’ve both considered what has often been written here about ‘no-control’ a lot and I’d be glad if you could add any of your reflections or links to assist other friends further. Indeed, it takes courage, patience, good cheer and wisdom to appreciate the following quote that Nina gave without there being any idea of a self that is ‘determined’ or ‘bent’ and this may be just what my other friend was trying to indicate: We read in the Co to the Dhmsg, the Expositor (p. 100): ****** In the Introductory chapter of the same text (p.31) we read about how the bhikkhu who is ‘ill-trained in the Sutta, gets a wrong idea’, especially with regards the references to persons and other conventional truths, taking these for realities. It also stresses how the bhikkhu who is ‘oll-trained in the Abhidhamma makes his mind run to excess in metaphysical abstractions and thinks of the unthinkable. Consequently he gets mental distraction. It concludes by saying that the bhikkhu ‘ill tained in the three Pitakas in due course arrives at failure of different sorts, such as evil principles, wrong views, mental derangement.’ These reminders follow the section about the three kinds of study: the study concerning the way of (badly)catching a snake, the study for salvation and the study of a treasurer. I’ve mentioned it before, but I’d like to stress that I really learn a lot from considering the varied comments and responding to those who have different understandings here. Repeatedly questioning our study and carefully reflecting leads to sati and insight naturally as I see it. I look forward to any further comments. Metta, Sarah p.s Christine, this was a report of the discussion I had on pakatuupanissaya paccaya that you may be referring to. It was concerning the references to concepts under this condition (rather technical). http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/m22304.html ==== 33054 From: Sarah Date: Sun May 16, 2004 5:19am Subject: Re: [dsg] Formal Sitting or Natural Arising? (was: Re: Video Games?) Hi KenH, Sukin (& Rob Ep), I came across this old classic from our friend, Mike, whilst looking for another post for Chris. I know you’ll both appreciate its contribution to your discussions;-). http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/2458 Mike:> I think that it's relatively easy to embrace anatta on a conceptual level, because, with a little understanding, it's easy to see how much unhappiness springs from the illusion of self (among other reasons). So we can reject atta out of plain old dosa... The idea of 'freedom'--meaning 'freedom of choice'--is MUCH harder to relinquish--especially (ironically) among those of us for whom 'liberation' is the central issue. I think this line of thinking usually goes something like this: "If 'I' can't choose patipada over pariyatti, or pariyatti over panyatti, If 'I' can't choose vipassana- over samatha-bhavana, If 'I' can't choose to investigate dhammas rather than to ignore them, to hear buddhadhamma rather than not to hear it, If 'I' can't choose to think, speak and act* in a wholesome way, then 'I' can never cultivate the eightfold path and attain liberation. So, 'I' don't mind giving up the idea of self, just so long as 'I'm' allowed to choose to do so (and receive the credit)...! Whether pariyatti or patipada or panyatti arises, whether samatha or vipassana bhavana is cultivated, whether dhammas are investigated or not, or buddhadhamma listened to or ignored, even whether kusala or akusala kamma is committed, NO ONE IS THERE in the arising, or the cultivation, or the investigation, listening, ignoring, thinking, speaking or acting. If there is no chooser, how can there be, or have been, a choice? Just wisdom or ignorance, in any possible situation, tipping the scale one way or the other depending on how much of each has accumulated. I think that's why right effort is defined by its outcomes, rather than its intent. It leads to: the going down of unskilled states already arisen; the non-arising unskilled states as yet unarisen; the arising of skilled states as yet unarisen; and the continuation, development and perfection of skilled states already arisen. (sorry I can't cite the source of this translation) No one choosing or intending in any of these--just cause, and effect. So it really doesn't make much sense to argue about whether we'll meditate or not, or study abhidhamma or not, or contemplate our breath rather than aggregates or bases or elements. 'We' will do what conditions, internal and external, allow us to do, and not otherwise--ever. If sufficient wisdom has accumulated for us to think, say and do intelligent things, and not to think, say or do stupid things, that's just wisdom at work--not 'us'.< ***** Metta, Sarah ====== 33055 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun May 16, 2004 5:35am Subject: Re: [dsg] Philip: my vacation Dear Philip, It gives me much pleasure to correspond with you. op 15-05-2004 01:21 schreef Philip op plnao@j...: "Helping other people > with kind words and deeds alone is not enough. When it is the right > moment we can help other in a deeper and more effective way, that is, > helping them to understand who they are, why they are in this world > and what the aim of their life in this world is. This way of helping > is included in bhavana or mental development." N: Studying the Dhamma and explaining it is included in mental development. When you explain, it takes two people: the explainer and the listener. The person who explains Dhamma has to consider carefully himself or herself, it deepens the understanding to explain. You see, the benefit is on both sides. You both grow in the Dhamma. Isn't this a wonderful thing of the Dhamma? I feel this benefit so much while having Dhamma discussions with Lodewijk. Today I was reading just a little from an old talk of mine (only typed, never on computer) Buddhism and Social Life. While I read I also benefit myself, it is about metta. How the understanding of anatta is not a hindrance for thinking with metta about people; no, on the contrary, it helps. Ph: In another thread, you > spoke of the gift we can give others by encouraging them towards an > understanding of kusala and akusala N: It is again about the same: about Dhamma. Two sides benefit. We can also notice this while writing posts for dsg. Sarah often mentions this. Ph: (snip) Recently I have been greatly > impressed and really had my way of thinking about metta shifted by > your writing on how we can help people to feel calm, perhaps, but > only for that moment. I loved your description of your kindness to > Lodjewik - I am sorry as always for not having learned to spell his > name yet - when he came home from work irritable from a hard day- and > the way your good humour conditioned happiness for him. N: It comes naturally, nothing special. It just illustrates that different moments alternate: metta and lobha, or Dhamma talk and lobha. Lobha and laughing is not forbidden. We let it all come naturally. Ph: And in your > case, you could continue on from there and have a wholesome > discussion based in right understanding over dinner. N: More on vacation,when we have more time, but at home just a little bit. I joke to him: you will die soon, we better have a Dhamma discussion. But Dhamma also makes the body stronger as A. Sujin said. Ph: But for most > people who do not have the accumulations for those kind of > discussions. Real and lasting wellbeing can only come through their > right understanding which is not something we can impart just by > being kind. N: Let it come by conditions. Nina. 33056 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun May 16, 2004 5:53am Subject: Anapanasati Sutta (was, Pannatti (Concept)) Victor, and Rob Ep Victor, I'd like to come back to a post of yours that I answered in part before. I've included Rob Ep above because the same issue has been raised by him in recent posts. Victor: Why does one want to develop & pursue anapanasati? Because "Mindfulness of in-&-out breathing, when developed & pursued, is of great fruit, of great benefit. Mindfulness of in-&-out breathing, when developed & pursued, brings the four frames of reference to their culmination." Jon: Context is everything. In the sutta, these words come at the end of the description of the occasion on which the discourse was given. It is helpful to look at the occasion to get a proper understanding of the teaching being given. I have set out below the relevant part of the 'occasion' description, which is often overlooked (people like to jump straight in at the passage you have quoted). The text is taken from ATI; I have added paragraph numbers so that I can cross refer more easily. The first point to note is that the assembly of monks to which the sutta is given is an extremely illustrious one. This is indicated by the roll-call of 'well-known elder disciples' [1], the glowing description of the assembly by the Buddha [7] and the description of different levels of attainment of those present, who included: [8] Arahants, [9] non-returners [10] once-returners [11] stream-enterers [12] monks who 'remain devoted to the development of the four frames of reference... the seven factors for Awakening... the noble eightfold path' [13] monks who 'remain devoted to the development of good will... compassion... appreciation... equanimity...[the perception of the] foulness [of the body]... the perception of inconstancy'. [14] monks who 'remain devoted to mindfulness of in-&-out breathing'. Note the reference at [12] to monks who 'remain devoted to' the development of the four frames of reference ... the seven factors for Awakening... the noble eightfold path'. This I take to mean monks who are well advanced in the development of insight (vipassana bhavana). Now regarding the monks who 'remain devoted to mindfulness of in-&-out breathing' [14], these are the monks to whom the passage we are now considering is addressed in particular. I see 2 things of significance. The first is that these monks are already skilled in the development of samatha with breath as object; the second is that they are not yet to be counted among those who are 'devoted to the development of the four frames of reference ... the seven factors for Awakening... the noble eightfold path' at [12], i.e., as being firmly established in the development of insight. Now let's look again at your passage, in the light of this background. It reads [15]: "Mindfulness of in-&-out breathing, ... [J: as being developed by those just described at [14]] when developed & pursued, ... [J: i.e., developed and pursued in the particular way to be described later in this sutta] brings the four frames of reference ... the seven factors for Awakening ...clear knowing & release to their culmination." [J: i.e., as for the persons described at [12], who are well established in insight] So I see this passage as extolling the development of insight, in tandem with the further development of samatha with breath as object, for those who have already developed samatha with breath as object. I do not see in this particular passage the message that people wishing to development insight are advised to do so by also developing samatha with breath as object. A final point of interest is that the assembly includes monks who are skilled in samatha with other objects such as the 4 brahma-viharas, foulness of the body, and the perception of impermanence [13]. However, no special instruction is given here (or elsewhere, that I'm aware of) for the concurrent development of insight for these disciples. I suspect this reflects the fact that enlightenment based on jhana with breath as object is of particular difficulty, and is a course that is suitable for Buddhas, Pacceka-Buddhas and the great disciples, i.e., for the very greatest of beings. Jon Anapanasati Sutta (M. 118) ******************************* [1] I have heard that on one occasion the Blessed One was staying at Savatthi in the Eastern Monastery, the palace of Migara's mother, together with many well-known elder disciples -- with Ven. Sariputta, Ven. Maha Moggallana, Ven. Maha Kassapa, Ven. Maha Kaccana, Ven. Maha Kotthita, Ven. Maha Kappina, Ven. Maha Cunda, Ven. Revata, Ven. Ananda, and other well-known elder disciples. ... [6] Now on that occasion -- the Uposatha day of the fifteenth, the full-moon night of the White water-lily month, the fourth month of the rains -- the Blessed One was seated in the open air surrounded by the community of monks. Surveying the silent community of monks, he addressed them: [7] "Monks, this assembly is free from idle chatter, devoid of idle chatter, and is established on pure heartwood: such is this community of monks, such is this assembly. The sort of assembly that is worthy of gifts, worthy of hospitality, worthy of offerings, worthy of respect, an incomparable field of merit for the world: such is this community of monks, such is this assembly. The sort of assembly to which a small gift, when given, becomes great, and a great gift greater: such is this community of monks, such is this assembly. The sort of assembly that it is rare to see in the world: such is this community of monks, such is this assembly -- the sort of assembly that it would be worth traveling for leagues, taking along provisions, in order to see. [8] "In this community of monks there are monks who are Arahants, whose mental effluents are ended, who have reached fulfillment, done the task, laid down the burden, attained the true goal, totally destroyed the fetter of becoming, and who are released through right gnosis: such are the monks in this community of monks. [9] "In this community of monks there are monks who, with the total ending of the first set of five fetters, are due to be reborn [in the Pure Abodes], there to be totally unbound, never again to return from that world: such are the monks in this community of monks. [10] "In this community of monks there are monks who, with the total ending of [the first] three fetters, and with the attenuation of passion, aversion, & delusion, are once-returners, who -- on returning only one more time to this world -- will make an ending to stress: such are the monks in this community of monks. [11] "In this community of monks there are monks who, with the total ending of [the first] three fetters, are stream-winners, steadfast, never again destined for states of woe, headed for self-awakening: such are the monks in this community of monks. [12] "In this community of monks there are monks who remain devoted to the development of the four frames of reference... the four right exertions... the four bases of power... the five faculties... the five strengths... the seven factors for Awakening... the noble eightfold path: such are the monks in this community of monks. [13] "In this community of monks there are monks who remain devoted to the development of good will... compassion... appreciation... equanimity...[the perception of the] foulness [of the body]... the perception of inconstancy: such are the monks in this community of monks. [14] "In this community of monks there are monks who remain devoted to mindfulness of in-&-out breathing. [15] "Mindfulness of in-&-out breathing, when developed & pursued, is of great fruit, of great benefit. Mindfulness of in-&-out breathing, when developed & pursued, brings the four frames of references to their culmination. The four frames of reference, when developed & pursued, bring the seven factors for Awakening to their culmination. The seven factors for Awakening, when developed & pursued, bring clear knowing & release to their culmination. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/majjhima/mn118.html --- yu_zhonghao wrote: > Hi Jon, > > Commentaries, ancient or modern, on anapanasati may be helpful to > one who develops anapanasati(being mindful with breath). > > Why does one want to develop & pursue anapanasati? Because > "Mindfulness of in-&-out breathing, when developed & pursued, is of > great fruit, of great benefit. Mindfulness of in-&-out breathing, > when developed & pursued, brings the four frames of reference to their culmination." > > Developing & pursuing anapanasati is a "doing" and a skillful one. > > And by "doing" I mean kamma/action. It is the "doing" that leads to > the cessation of "doing." > > There is nothing wrong spending certain amount of time a day > dedicating to developing and pursuing anapanasati. > > Why does one want to sit down folding his legs crosswise, holding > his body erect? > > Speaking from my own understanding, because it is a stable posture > that keeps the body still, conducive for calming the bodily and > mental fabrications and arousing energy. > > While in the suttas (references would be helpful) there may be many > instances of people, including lay-followers, becoming enlightened > while listening to the Buddha's discourses, it does not mean that > these people did not spending time on developing & pursuing > anapasati. > > As I see it, anapanasati is being mindful of and with in-&-out > breathing. > > Metta, > Victor 33057 From: Date: Sun May 16, 2004 4:11am Subject: Re: [dsg] Breath as bodily formation (was, Pannatti (Concept)) Hi, Jon (and Victor) - In a message dated 5/16/04 5:59:47 AM Eastern Daylight Time, jonoabb@y... writes: > To my reading, references in the teachings to conditioned dhammas/the > five aggregates do not include a specific dhamma of 'breath'. What > we take for breath is in fact a number of different conditioned > dhammas. It is only these dhammas to which the characteristics of > anicca/dukkha/anatta are applicable. > ======================= I agree with you Jon. That is certainly the primary meaning and application throughout. For example there is the following: --------------------------- Samyutta Nikaya XXXV.82 Loka Sutta The World Translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu. For free distribution only. Then a certain monk went to the Blessed One and, on arrival, having bowed down to him, sat to one side. As he was sitting there, he said to the Blessed One: "'The world, the world (loka),'[1] it is said. In what respect does the word 'world' apply? "Insofar as it disintegrates (lujjati), monk, it is called the 'world.' Now what disintegrates? The eye disintegrates. Forms disintegrate. Consciousness at the eye consciousness disintegrates. Contact at the eye disintegrates. And whatever there is that arises in dependence on contact at the eye -- experienced as pleasure, pain or neither-pleasure-nor-pain -- that too disintegrates. "The ear disintegrates. Sounds disintegrate... "The nose disintegrates. Aromas disintegrate... "The tongue disintegrates. Tastes disintegrate... "The body disintegrates. Tactile sensations disintegrate... "The intellect disintegrates. Ideas disintegrate. Consciousness at the intellect consciousness disintegrates. Contact at the intellect disintegrates. And whatever there is that arises in dependence on contact at the intellect -- experienced as pleasure, pain or neither-pleasure-nor-pain -- that too disintegrates. "Insofar as it disintegrates, it is called the 'world.'" ********************************* And there is also the following: ________________________ Anguttara Nikaya X.60 Girimananda Sutta To Girimananda Translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu. For free distribution only. Read an alternate translation by Piyadassi Thera. I have heard that on one occasion the Blessed One was staying near Savatthi, in Jeta's Grove, Anathapindika's monastery. And on that occasion Ven. Girimananda was diseased, in pain, severely ill. Then Ven. Ananda went to the Blessed One and, on arrival, having bowed down to him, sat to one side. As he was sitting there he said to the Blessed One, "Lord, Ven. Girimananda is diseased, in pain, severely ill. It would be good if the Blessed One would visit Ven. Girimananda, out of sympathy for him." "Ananda, if you go to the monk Girimananda and tell him ten perceptions, it's possible that when he hears the ten perceptions his disease may be allayed. Which ten? The perception of inconstancy, the perception of not-self, the perception of unattractiveness, the perception of drawbacks, the perception of abandoning, the perception of dispassion, the perception of cessation, the perception of distaste for every world, the perception of the undesirability of all fabrications, mindfulness of in-&-out breathing. [1] "And what is the perception of inconstancy? There is the case where a monk -- having gone to the wilderness, to the shade of a tree, or to an empty building -- reflects thus: 'Form is inconstant, feeling is inconstant, perception is inconstant, fabrications are inconstant, consciousness is inconstant.' Thus he remains focused on inconstancy with regard to the five aggregates. This, Ananda, is called the perception of inconstancy. [2] "And what is the perception of not-self? There is the case where a monk -- having gone to the wilderness, to the shade of a tree, or to an empty building -- reflects thus: 'The eye is not-self, forms are not-self; the ear is not-self, sounds are not-self; the nose is not-self, aromas are not-self; the tongue is not-self, flavors are not-self; the body is not-self, tactile sensations are not-self; the intellect is not-self, ideas are not-self.' Thus he remains focused on not-selfness with regard to the six inner & outer sense media. This is called the perception of not-self. ********************************** However, one can also truthfully say, but derivatively, conv entionally, and abbreviationally, that breath, too, is anicca, dukkha, and anatta. It is just that one should be very careful and very clear in one's mind as to exactly what is meant when that is said. The sense in which anicca and anatta, especially, apply to conventional objects is their applying to the actual phenomena that underlie them. As the underlying phenomena arise and cease, the conventional object appears to change. Dukkha, however, applies not only derivatively to conventional objects, but also directly, because dukkha depends on mind. There is the following: __________________________ > ... association with the unbeloved is dukkha; separation from the loved is > dukkha; not getting what is wanted is dukkha ---------------------------------------------- I do believe that the "things" that are unloved etc are conventional objects, including persons. Grief can arise, for example, at least as strongly with regard to the loss of a fictitious entity believed to be real as with regard to an actual phenomenon. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 33058 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Sun May 16, 2004 8:19am Subject: Re: Breath as bodily formation (was, Pannatti (Concept)) Hi Jon, Thank you for your notes. So is breath/in-&-out breathing inconstant, dukkha, not self? Metta, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Victor > > Here's where it's necessary to understand the distinction between the > different meanings of 'sankhara'. > > A. Sankhara as all conditioned dhammas. > In the context of the statement 'All sankhara are anicca, all > sankhara are dukkha, all dhammas anatta', sankhara means all > conditioned dhammas. This is meaning No. 4 in Nyanatiloka's > 'Buddhist Dictionary' list of meanings -- see below, particularly > where it says: > "This meaning applies to the well-known passage, "All formations are > impermanent... subject to suffering" (sabbe sankhára aniccá ... > dukkhá)." > > B. Sankhara as the bodily-, verbal- and mental-formation. > This is meaning No. 2 in the list below. Here the context is > 'nirodha-samaapatti', the cessation of perception and feeling. > > As I'm sure you know, nirodha-samaapatti is (Nyanatiloka's 'Buddhist > Dictionary' again): > "The temporary suspension of all consciousness and mental activity. > The absolutely necessary pre-conditions to its attainment are said to > be perfect mastery of all the 8 absorptions, as well as the previous > attainment of Anágámi or Arahatship." > > The context of nirodha-samaapatti can be seen from the passage in M. > 44 that follows the one in your quote. The speaker (who is the > arahant bhikkhunii Dhammadinnaa) is asked by Visaakha in what order > the 3 formations cease when attaining nirodha-samaapatti and she > answers (using the MLDB translation): > 17. "Friend Visaakha, when a bhikkhu is attaining the cessation of > perception and feeling, first the verbal formation ceases, then the > bodily formation, then the mental formation." > > This I take to mean that the function of speech ceases first, then > bodily actions (typified by breathing) cease, and finally all mental > functions (exemplified by perception and feeling) cease. > > As I think is clear from the entry from Nyanatiloka's 'Buddhist > Dictionary', we cannot just take one of the meanings of sankhara and > substitute that in another of the meanings, without understanding > exactly what the application is in each case. > > To my reading, references in the teachings to conditioned dhammas/the > five aggregates do not include a specific dhamma of 'breath'. What > we take for breath is in fact a number of different conditioned > dhammas. It is only these dhammas to which the characteristics of > anicca/dukkha/anatta are applicable. > > Jon > > *********** > Nyanatiloka's 'Buddhist Dictionary' > 'Sankhaara': > 1. As the 2nd link of the formula of dependent origination, sankhára > has the active aspect, 'forming, and signifies karma, i.e. wholesome > or unwholesome volitional activity (cetaná) of body (káya-s.), speech > (vací-s.) or mind (citta- or mano-s.). > 2. The aforementioned three terms, káya-, vací- and citta-s. are > sometimes used in quite a different sense, namely as (1) bodily > function, i.e. in-and-out-breathing (e.g. M. 10), (2) verbal > function, i.e. thought-conception and discursive thinking, (3) > mental-function, i.e. feeling and perception (e.g. M. 44). > 3. It also denotes the 4th group of existence (sankhárakkhandha), > and includes all 'mental formations' whether they belong to > 'karmically forming' consciousness or not. > 4. It occurs further in the sense of anything formed (sankhata) and > conditioned, and includes all things whatever in the world, all > phenomena of existence. This meaning applies, e.g. to the well- known > passage, "All formations are impermanent... subject to suffering" > (sabbe sankhára aniccá ... dukkhá). > *********** > > --- yu_zhonghao wrote: > Hi Jon, > > > > So breath, in-&-out breathing, is bodily fabrication. > > > > Is in-&-out breathing, a bodily fabrication, inconstant, dukkha, > > not self? > > > > Metta, > > Victor > 33059 From: htootintnaing Date: Sun May 16, 2004 8:27am Subject: Hetu Paccaya Initiation ( 03 ) PATTHANA DHAMMA 30 Hetu paccaya or root conditions are one of patthana paccaya. They are one of 24 conditions that can be seen in patthana dhamma. There are 6 roots or 6 hetus. All these 6 roots or hetus are cetasika dhamma. They are lobha,dosa, moha, alobha, adosa, and amoha. Lobha, dosa, and moha are called akusala hetus and alobha, adosa, and amoha are called kusala hetus. These latter 3 hetus if they arise with abyakata dhamma they are called abyakata hetus. Lobha is also known as tanha, upadana, samudaya and so on. Moha is sometimes called avijja. Alobha is sometimes refered to dana or offering but it is non-attachment. Adosa is metta or loving kindness. Amoha is pannindriya cetasika and simply called panna and is sometimes called vijja. There are 89 cittas or 89 states of consciousness. Among these 89 cittas,18 cittas do not have any hetu or root with them. They are called ahetuka cittas and they are not conditioned by root condition. These 18 cittas are 10 pancavinnana cittas, 5 akusala and 5 kusala in origin, 2 sampaticchana cittas or receiving consciousness again akusala and kusala, 2 upekkha santirana cittas, akusala and kusala, and 1 kusala somanassa santirana citta. These 15 cittas are vipaka cittas and they are called ahetuka vipaka cittas. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Htoo: 10 pancavinnana cittas are sense-consciousness. Panca means 'five'. Vinnana is made up of 'vi' and 'nana'. Nana is knowledge. Vi means particular or distinguishing or special or especial. Vinnana means a special kind of knowledge or consciousness. Cakkhuvinnana or eye-consciousness is a kind of knowledge or consciousness that knows or that is aware of sense that is sight that appears at eye sense door. If words are repeatedly studied then they become familiar words. Now that cakkhuvinnana has been explained. It is just knowledge of sight that arises at eye. It is a citta. It is a vinnana. It is cakkhuvinnana. So whenever cakkhuvinnana is met, there needs not be panic. Whether it is 'Cakkhuvinnana' or 'eye-consciousness' or 'sight- consciousness' or just 'CV' that is Cakkhu-Vinnana is used, the essence is the same. But originality is Cakkhu-Vinnana. Cakkhu here is eye. By the same token, sota is related to ear, ghana is related to nose, jivha is related to tongue, and kaya is related to body. CV, SV, GV, JV, and KV are vinnana. There are wholesome CV which is the result of good kamma and unwholesome Cv due to bad kamma. So there will be 2 CV, 2 SV, 2GV, 2JV, and 2 KV each has akusala and kusala vinnana cittas. So there are 10 vinnana cittas. As these 10 arise one of 5 dvaras or doors, they are called pancavinnana citta. As each have 2 vinnana cittas they are collectively called dvipancavinnana cittas. Dvi means 2 or double. Sampaticchana citta is receiving mind. Citta just lasts a moment. In a satt, life starts with patisandhi citta. Satta means 'being'. Patisandhi is made up of 'pati' and 'sandhi'. Pati means 'again'. Sandhi means 'to link'. It links cuti citta of past live and the first bhavanga citta of present life. It stays in the middle. After the first bhavanga citta there are countless cittas and the life of a satta or being ends with arising of cuti citta which is dying consciousness. So between patisandhi citta or linking consciousness and cuti citta or dying consciousness, there are countless cittas and all these constitute a life including patisandhi and cuti cittas. After the first bhavanga citta there follows many cittas. Bhavanga is made up of 'Bhava' and 'Anga'. Bhava is life or existence and 'Anga' means part or a part or a portion or a piece or a component. After 1st bhavanga citta BC, there follows many BCs. At a time there hit a sense impression and vithi cittas arise. Vithi means 'serial' 'order'. Vithi cittas come in exact order and so all cittas that come in that order are called vithi cittas. The order is 1. 1st Pancadvaravajjana citta 2. 2nd Pancavinnana citta 3. 3rd Sampaticchana citta 4. 4th Santirana citta 5. 5th Votthapana citta 6. 6th Javana citta 7. 7th Tadarammana citta All pancadvara vithi cittas come in that exact order and they always follow the rule of citta niyama. Pancadvara means 5-doors. Pancadvaravajjana means 5-doors- contemplating. Pancadvaravajjana citta is a citta that contemplates on 5 sense doors. When a sense impression arises, as both sense ( for example sight ) and eye ( cakkhu pasada rupa ) are just in their infancy and a citta passed away. That citta is past BC or Atita BC or A-BC. Another citta arises without knowing that sight sense but just the same object of BC and it is another BC called Bhavanga Calana Citta or C-BC. Calana means shaking, reverbrating, rippling. 2 citta moments lapses. 3rd citta arises. That citta is just going to release its own object that is object of BC and just going to grasp a new object that is sight which has now been 3 citta moments. Still the 3rd citta is BC and its object is that of BC. It is called arresting BC or Bhavangupaccheda or U-BC. Upaccheda means 'cut out' 'stop' 'arrest'. Next arises 4th citta. This citta is vithi citta. It is pancadvaravajjana citta. BCs have passed away. A citta arises. But that citta does not know what the sense is. So that citta contemplates on one of five doors and then it falls away. As it contemplates that is it looks for which door the sense is coming in, it is called pancadvara-avajjana citta. Avajjana has two parts. 'Arammana' or 'A' and 'Vajjana'. Vajjana is 'to contemplate'. So avajjana is contemplation on arammana. Pancadvaravajjana citta contemplates on which arammana is arising at which door. It just falls away without knowledge of what the sense is. But it knew which door the sense came in. As it knows the door already, next arising citta exactly arise depending on the door. So pancadvaravajjana citta is like turning the attention to one of a specific sense door. If the sense is from eye, cakkhuvinnana CV arises. If ear it is SV and if nose GV, if tongue JV, and if body KV arise. As these are from 5 sense doors they all are collectively called Pancavinnana citta. Pancavinna cittas just know their correspondind sense. But they do not know what their implications are. Pancavinnana citta just passes away. Immediately arises is sampaticchana citta. It is receiving mind. Sampaticchana is made up of 'sam' and 'paticchana'. 'sam' means well, neatly, tidily, exactly, accurately. 'paticchana' means 'to receive'. This citta just receives the sense that was just sensed by pancavinnana. It just knows and just receives and hands over to the next arising citta. Sampaticchana does not fully know what the implications of that sense are. Next arises santirana citta. Santirana means 'to investigate' 'to explore' 'to test'. While sampaticchana just receives the sense, santirana investigates what the sense is like. Next arises votthapana citta. When santirana did investigation, votthapana citta determines or decides how to feel or how to sense in full effect. But it still does not feel or sense in full length but just decides. Next arises the 1st javana citta. Javana means 'rapid' 'quick' 'fast'. There will follow 7 successive citta after votthapana citta. As citta last only just a moment, this successive arising of 7 same cittas seems to be very very fast. So they all are called javana citta. They fully know the sense. They fully sense the sense. But in the 1st vara the sense is not that of full realisation. Vara means 'turn' 'timing'. after the 1st javana citta passes away, next arise 2nd javana citta. It knows more than the 1st. And this happen till the 7th javana citta. Next arise 1st Tadarammana citta. Tada means 'then'. Arammana means object. Tadarammana citta takes the same object of 7th javana citta. So it is called then-object or tadarammana. It seems retention of the object of javana citta, which all 7 javana cittas have sensed fully and tadarammana just retents. Next arise 2nd Tadarammana citta. After passing away of this 2nd tadarammana, no vithi citta can arise as sense impression of existing rupa has passed away. There are 1. A-BC ( Atita Bhavanga Citta ) 2. C-BC ( Bhavnga Calana Citta ) 3. U-BC ( BhavangUpaccheda Citta ) 4. P-AC ( PancaDvaraAvajjana Citta ) 5. P-VC (PancaVinnana Citta ) 6. S-PC ( SamPaticchana Citta ) 7. S-TC ( SanTirana Citta ) 8. M-VC ( ManodvaraVajjana Citta ) which is votthapana citta 9. F-JC ( First Javana Citta ) 10.Sc-JC ( SeCond Javana Citta ) 11.T-JC ( Third Javana Citta ) 12.Fo-JC ( FOurth Javana Citta ) 13.Fi-JC ( FIfth Javana Citta ) 14.Si-JC ( SIx Javana Citta ) 15.Sv-JC ( SeVen Javana Citta ) 16.F-TdC ( First TaDarammana Citta ) 17.S-TdC ( Second TaDarammana Citta ) Rupa has a life of 17 citta moments. So next follows uncounted bhavanga cittas. Whenever the sense impression is very clear, cittas arise in this exact order. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 33060 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Sun May 16, 2004 9:23am Subject: Re: Anapanasati Sutta (was, Pannatti (Concept)) Hi Jon, Let me respond in context. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Victor, and Rob Ep > > Victor, I'd like to come back to a post of yours that I answered in > part before. I've included Rob Ep above because the same issue has > been raised by him in recent posts. What exactly is the issue in discussion? > > Victor: > Why does one want to develop & pursue anapanasati? Because > "Mindfulness of in-&-out breathing, when developed & pursued, is of > great fruit, of great benefit. Mindfulness of in-&-out breathing, > when developed & pursued, brings the four frames of reference to > their culmination." > > Jon: > Context is everything. In the sutta, these words come at the end of > the description of the occasion on which the discourse was given. So you said that context is everything, and you tried to put these words "Mindfulness of in-&-out breathing, when developed & pursued, is of great fruit, of great benefit. Mindfulness of in-&-out breathing, when developed & pursued, brings the four frames of reference to their culmination." in context. It > is helpful to look at the occasion to get a proper understanding of > the teaching being given. Is the issue about proper understanding of the teaching being given? I have set out below the relevant part of > the 'occasion' description, which is often overlooked (people like to > jump straight in at the passage you have quoted). Relevant to what? In other words, you tried to bring out a context. However, the question is: What is the issue or question to be discussed? The text is taken > from ATI; I have added paragraph numbers so that I can cross refer > more easily. > > The first point to note is that the assembly of monks to which the > sutta is given is an extremely illustrious one. So what is the point? This is indicated by > the roll-call of 'well-known elder disciples' [1], the glowing > description of the assembly by the Buddha [7] and the description of > different levels of attainment of those present, who included: > [8] Arahants, > [9] non-returners > [10] once-returners > [11] stream-enterers > [12] monks who 'remain devoted to the development of the four frames > of reference... the seven factors for Awakening... the noble > eightfold path' > [13] monks who 'remain devoted to the development of good will... > compassion... appreciation... equanimity...[the perception of the] > foulness [of the body]... the perception of inconstancy'. > [14] monks who 'remain devoted to mindfulness of in-&-out breathing'. > > > Note the reference at [12] to monks who 'remain devoted to' the > development of the four frames of reference ... the seven factors for > Awakening... the noble eightfold path'. This I take to mean monks > who are well advanced in the development of insight (vipassana > bhavana). > > Now regarding the monks who 'remain devoted to mindfulness of > in-&-out breathing' [14], these are the monks to whom the passage we > are now considering is addressed in particular. I see 2 things of > significance. > > The first is that these monks are already skilled in the development > of samatha with breath as object; the second is that they are not yet > to be counted among those who are 'devoted to the development of the > four frames of reference ... the seven factors for Awakening... the > noble eightfold path' at [12], i.e., as being firmly established in > the development of insight. > > Now let's look again at your passage, in the light of this > background. It reads [15]: > "Mindfulness of in-&-out breathing, ... > [J: as being developed by those just described at [14]] > when developed & pursued, ... > [J: i.e., developed and pursued in the particular way to be described > later in this sutta] > brings the four frames of reference ... the seven factors for > Awakening ...clear knowing & release to their culmination." > [J: i.e., as for the persons described at [12], who are well > established in insight] > > So I see this passage as extolling the development of insight, in > tandem with the further development of samatha with breath as object, > for those who have already developed samatha with breath as object. > > I do not see in this particular passage the message that people > wishing to development insight are advised to do so by also > developing samatha with breath as object. What does this point of yours, and I am not saying whether it is right or wrong in itself, have to do with the passage: Why does one want to develop & pursue anapanasati? Because "Mindfulness of in-&-out breathing, when developed & pursued, is of great fruit, of great benefit. Mindfulness of in-&-out breathing, when developed & pursued, brings the four frames of reference to their culmination." the passage you tried to put in context in the first place? What does it get to do with the message that you responded? > > A final point of interest is that the assembly includes monks who are > skilled in samatha with other objects such as the 4 brahma-viharas, > foulness of the body, and the perception of impermanence [13]. > However, no special instruction is given here (or elsewhere, that I'm > aware of) for the concurrent development of insight for these > disciples. I suspect this reflects the fact that enlightenment based > on jhana with breath as object is of particular difficulty, and is a > course that is suitable for Buddhas, Pacceka-Buddhas and the great > disciples, i.e., for the very greatest of beings. Again, what is the issue? And how is it relevant to the message and passage that you responded? > > Jon Metta, Victor 33061 From: Date: Sun May 16, 2004 6:25am Subject: Re: [dsg] Dana In a message dated 5/14/04 3:49:56 PM Pacific Daylight Time, rob.moult@j... writes: There is a wealth of information on Dana at http://www.buddhistinformation.com/dana.htm Here is a summary (extracted from various authors on this website): ========== Rob, Many thanks. There were lots of good ideas in your quotes that I can use. Jack 33062 From: Larry Date: Sun May 16, 2004 10:56am Subject: Re: Kilesa (defilements) Hi Christine (& Howard), Re MN 2: "When a monk's fermentations that should be abandoned by seeing have been abandoned by seeing, his fermentations that should be abandoned by restraining have been abandoned by restraining" There are many interesting notes on this sutta in B. Bodhi's trans. Apparently "seeing" here means seeing nibbana and is meant to represent stream entry. Also apparently restraining the senses is a matter of interpretation (sanna/sati)rather than simply not looking. It is restraining the proliferation of interpretation that tends toward seeing the impermanent as permanent, the painful as pleasant, not self as self, and the foul as beautiful. Tracing this through Vism. I,53-55 & note 14 we see that this ties into Udana 8 ("The seen shall be merely the seen".) Using the example of the Elder Maha Tissa who saw a beautiful girl as merely a group of bones I would say there is still considerable mental formation. The Elder didn't say all I say was colors. Conventional experience is still at work here. Howard, since you have expressed an interest in the restraint of the senses, I wonder if you have any thoughts on this? Larry 33063 From: Date: Sun May 16, 2004 7:29am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Kilesa (defilements) Hi, Larry (and Christine) - In a message dated 5/16/04 1:59:45 PM Eastern Daylight Time, LBIDD@w... writes: > Hi Christine (& Howard), > > Re MN 2: "When a monk's fermentations that should be abandoned by > seeing have > been abandoned by seeing, his fermentations that should be abandoned > by restraining have been abandoned by restraining" > > There are many interesting notes on this sutta in B. Bodhi's trans. > Apparently "seeing" here means seeing nibbana and is meant to > represent stream entry. > > Also apparently restraining the senses is a matter of interpretation > (sanna/sati)rather than simply not looking. It is restraining the > proliferation of interpretation that tends toward seeing the > impermanent as permanent, the painful as pleasant, not self as self, > and the foul as beautiful. Tracing this through Vism. I,53-55 ¬e > 14 we see that this ties into Udana 8 ("The seen shall be merely the > seen".) Using the example of the Elder Maha Tissa who saw a beautiful > girl as merely a group of bones I would say there is still > considerable mental formation. The Elder didn't say all I say was > colors. Conventional experience is still at work here. > > Howard, since you have expressed an interest in the restraint of the > senses, I wonder if you have any thoughts on this? > > Larry > > ============================ I think that restraining the senses is really restraining the mind - attending mindfully and avoiding mental proliferation, reification, craving, and aversion; that is, avoiding harmful reaction. In this regard, please see the sutta at ATI with the following url: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn35-191.html This sutta also makes crysal clear, I believe, that ill is not inherent in objects of experience but in our reactions to them. Largely, restraining the senses amounts to noting and letting go. It is a process of mindful attending and relinquishing. The "not grasping of details" often referred to does not, as I see it, mean not observing details carefully, but, rather, seeing them extremely clearly for what they actually are, not clinging to them, and not emotionally and cognitively embellishing them. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 33064 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun May 16, 2004 11:53am Subject: Re: [dsg] Philip: my vacation Dear Philip, I like very much what you write here. Refuge is not outward, the inner attitude is what matters. Your growing confidence. It grows when there is more understanding. Nina. op 16-05-2004 00:03 schreef Philip op plnao@j...: > The last lines of Chapter 6: "We take our refuge in the Buddha > when we have confidence in his teachings and we consider it the most > important thing in life to practice what he taught." This is > certainly true in my case these days so I suppose I may have taken > refuge in some way without having formally done so. 33065 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Sun May 16, 2004 4:31pm Subject: Re: Kilesa (defilements) Hi Christine and all, I think the quote you provided is excellent and to the point. I find the following discourse relevent: Anguttara Nikaya III.70 Muluposatha Sutta The Roots of the Uposatha http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an03-070.html Let me quote a passage from it: "And what is the Uposatha of the Noble Ones? It is the cleansing of the defiled mind through the proper technique. And how is the defiled mind cleansed through the proper technique? "There is the case where the disciple of the noble ones recollects the Tathagata, thus: 'Indeed, the Blessed One is worthy and rightly self-awakened, consummate in knowledge & conduct, well-gone, an expert with regard to the world, unexcelled as a trainer for those people fit to be tamed, the Teacher of divine & human beings, awakened, blessed.' As he is recollecting the Tathagata, his mind is calmed, and joy arises; the defilements of his mind are abandoned, just as when the head is cleansed through the proper technique. And how is the head cleansed through the proper technique? Through the use of cosmetic paste & clay & the appropriate human effort. This is how the head is cleansed through the proper technique. In the same way, the defiled mind is cleansed through the proper technique. And how is the defiled mind cleansed through the proper technique? There is the case where the disciple of the noble ones recollects the Tathagata... As he is recollecting the Tathagata, his mind is cleansed, and joy arises; the defilements of his mind are abandoned. He is thus called a disciple of the noble ones undertaking the Brahma-Uposatha. He lives with Brahma [= the Buddha]. It is owing to Brahma that his mind is calmed, that joy arises, and that whatever defilements there are in his mind are abandoned. This is how the mind is cleansed through the proper technique. Metta, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Hello Victor, and all, > > It seems there a few categories of kilesa, and differing ways to > abandon them - according to the Sabbasava Sutta MN 2 "All the > Fermentations" > > "When a monk's fermentations that should be abandoned by seeing have > been abandoned by seeing, his fermentations that should be abandoned > by restraining have been abandoned by restraining, his fermentations > that should be abandoned by using have been abandoned by using, his > fermentations that should be abandoned by tolerating have been > abandoned by tolerating, his fermentations that should be abandoned > by avoiding have been abandoned by avoiding, his fermentations that > should be abandoned by destroying have been abandoned by destroying, > his fermentations that should be abandoned by developing have been > abandoned by developing, then he is called a monk who dwells > restrained with the restraint of all the fermentations. He has > severed craving, thrown off the fetters, and -- through the right > penetration of conceit -- has made an end of suffering & stress." > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/majjhima/mn002.html > > Do you have any sutta links for Defilements? > > metta and peace, > Christine [snip] 33066 From: Date: Sun May 16, 2004 5:10pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Kilesa (defilements) Hi Howard, I agree there's no defilement in the object. However, I think both sutta and abhidhamma specifies inherently undesirable, moderately desirable, and very desirable objects. That's where the notion of foulness comes from. When the beautiful woman encountered and laughed at the Elder Maha-Tissa he said all he saw was a group of bones because all he saw was her teeth, and they weren't pretty. The way I read this is that a beautiful woman is indeed desirable but her parts are undesirable (foul). If a monk were to see a beautiful woman and think her undesirable that would be a perversion (vipallasa). But if a monk were to see a beautiful woman as a group of foul parts that would not be a perversion. For a doctor I think we would have to look closer at the parts and say if they are health they are desirable and if unhealthy they are undesirable. See p.172 in CMA for further details. Larry ----------------------- Howard: "I think that restraining the senses is really restraining the mind - attending mindfully and avoiding mental proliferation, reification, craving, and aversion; that is, avoiding harmful reaction. In this regard, please see the sutta at ATI with the following url: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn35-191.html This sutta also makes crysal clear, I believe, that ill is not inherent in objects of experience but in our reactions to them. Largely, restraining the senses amounts to noting and letting go. It is a process of mindful attending and relinquishing. The "not grasping of details" often referred to does not, as I see it, mean not observing details carefully, but, rather, seeing them extremely clearly for what they actually are, not clinging to them, and not emotionally and cognitively embellishing them." 33067 From: Philip Date: Sun May 16, 2004 5:30pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Philip: my vacation Hello Nina, and all Thank you for your encouraging words, Nina. As it happens I had another insight into the concept of refuge this morning. There are some very ugly and frightening issues arising (again) on my wife's side of the family. There is a tendency for me to want to hide away in my dhamma books and take refuge in an unwholesome sense of the word. I'm sure some people at the early stages of developing understanding use their deepening interest in the Buddha's teaching to hide away from life's problems, crouching down with one's nose in a book or sitting on a cushion with one's attention on the breath until the storm passes. True refuge in the Buddha, the Dhamma and the Sangha will help me to deal with life's problems in a confident calm way, right out in the storm and able to weather with it more wisely and, perhaps, help provide guidance to other people caught in it as well. I could also take the dhamma and say that everything is conditioned, so there is nothing that can be done to help the people in question. I think there is an element of truth in that in many situations, but the Buddha didn't want us to take it to extremes. I will take refuge but be sure not to do it in a way that allows me to hide from life's problems. Metta, Phil --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > Dear Philip, > I like very much what you write here. Refuge is not outward, the inner > attitude is what matters. Your growing confidence. It grows when there is > more understanding. > Nina. > op 16-05-2004 00:03 schreef Philip op plnao@j...: > > > The last lines of Chapter 6: "We take our refuge in the Buddha > > when we have confidence in his teachings and we consider it the most > > important thing in life to practice what he taught." This is > > certainly true in my case these days so I suppose I may have taken > > refuge in some way without having formally done so. 33068 From: Philip Date: Sun May 16, 2004 6:45pm Subject: Re: [dsg] re: Global chaos or a cup of tea ?@Hello Sarah, Kom and all Time now to catch up with this thread. Thank you for your feedback.. I must admit that I missed Kom?fs reply. My apologies for that. I think I will have to return to receiving e-mails rather than just checking at the board because I miss things. > > Ph: I think this would be true for something subtle, like choosing > > between harsh speech and gentle speech, or between daydreaming of > > something unwholesome or staying in the moment to examine realities, > > but when it comes to gross defilements like being interested in war > > footage, I would disagree and say something can and should be done > > about it. We DO have an option with the crude excesses, I'm thinking - > > with subtle or latent defilements it's a different story. > .... > S: Like Kom* was stressing: > Kom: `none other than the Buddha can teach about the anattaness of all > realities. It is not only the conceptual understanding of anattaness that > the Buddha taught, but ultimately, it is the reality arising now, and the > wisdom that realizes it directly, what anattaness is all about.?E > > We think wehave lots of options , but these too are conditioned moments > of thinking. Does this mean that we just follow the war footage and be > overcome by the crude excesses? That would not be right either. An > understanding of anatta or conditioned dhammas means there is more > knowledge of the danger of unwholesome states, not less. Whether kusala or > akusala cittas arise now or whether there is enough restraint to abstain > from clicking on www. Iraq.com, however, depends on many conditions, none > of which include self-Option?E though a wrong view about self- Option?E> and thinking in this will in itself be a condition for further wrong views > in future. Ph: Even in the short time since starting this thread I am starting to have better understanding of how my unwholesome interest in this is conditioned and how in the end it will be right understanding rather than will power that leads me out of the bad habit. Kom?fs sentence ?g..there is more knowledge of the danger of unwholesome states.?h Is what it will come down to, not will power. I can see that this is what happened with another bad habit that I have pretty much eradicated (it would be unwise to claim complete victory.) I would vow to stop, and have backslides, and regrets, and vow to stop again and have more backslides. Each time the period of abstinence grew longer and the backslide period shorter and now I am able to believe that there will not be more backslides. Through this process it was not that my will was getting stronger, it was that my ?gknowledge of the danger of unwholesome states?h was getting clearer. The same thing is already happening with my unwholesome interest in the news. It took long years – maybe 10- to eradicate the other bad habit. I?fve only had this unwholesome interest in the news for a couple of years so it will take time. .... > > Ph: Yes, it's not an attachment to believing that the other option > > is more fertile, but I really have to believe that allowing onself to > > be further polluted by certain kinds of media - pronography, for > > example - in the belief that it is an equally valid way of examining > > rupa and nama could be a trap for a beginner like myself to fall > > into. > .... > S: That?fs not quite how I'd put it. My point was that whatever cittas, > cetasikas or rupas are appearing now, by conditions, can be known. If > there is an idea that another activity or nama or rupa has to occur first, > then it?fs wrong. If we think that oh well, might just as well look at the > disturbing news or porn because they?fre all namas and rupas just the same?E that would be equally wrong. Ph: I see what you mean now. And by being known, the cittas and cetasikas can leads me a step further towards the right understanding of ?gthe knowledge of the danger of unwholesome states.?h P; > > Let's think of the citta stream as an actual river. I'm talking > > about clearing out rotten logs and old bicycles and washing machines > > that are blocking the flow. Ph: I should have said that the big pieces of junk divert the flow into boggy areas rather than blocking the flow. > S: Who does the clearing out? There are only cittas, cetasikas and rupas > as you know. > .... > >When that's done, the time will come to > > take a more refined, less self-directed approach. That's the way I'm > > seeing it now. I wonder if anyone else agrees that there is the need > > for self to do some heavy work at the beginning to prepare for the > > release of self? > ... > S: Don?ft worry - the Great Majority will be on the need for self?E side anywhere you look;-). Ph: The confusing thing for me - but not in a troubling way - is that even within the Theravada community there seems to be a view that the mind can be directed in a wholesome direction. For example, this from Ayya Khema: ?gInstead of thinking about this and that, allowing the defilements to arise we could also *direct* the mind towards something beneficial such as investigating our likes and dislikes, our desires and rejections our ideas and views. When the mind inquires, it doesn?ft get involved in its own creations. It can?ft do both at the same time. As it becomes more and more observant, it remain objective for longer periods of time.?h My stress on ?gdirect" Of course it could be said that she means the mind is directed by right understanding that gradually comes, and probably that?fs what she does mean. But the talks I took this from were to novice nuns, I think, and she may have used ?gdirect the mind?h in an active sense because she believed it could be of value for people with an early degree of understanding. That?fs my take on it. There are many cases where she does this, as does Ajahn Chah - though who knows if it isn?f t the translation that might give that impression. Let me tell you about an exercise that I have been doing in the light of the above quotation. When I walk home from the station, I am tired and hungry and walk through a fairly barren stretch of joyless industrial wasteland.. There has been a tendency for my mind to latch onto unwholesome fantasies to kill time during this 20 minute walk.. They used to be sexual in nature, but I seem to have eradicated the worst of that, so now they are related to either the thrilling horrors of war or the beauties of baseball. I decided to use the time to stay as tuned as possible into the realities of the moment as possible. Looking at rupa and nama in my beginner?fs way. It is an intentional practice and for those 20 minutes my mind is not permitted to churn up crud or when crud arises it is released. And I find now that when I walk anywhere there are moments when I feel the same objectivity arising . I feel this is a result of having set that practice. Now it is probably true that this practice arose in a conditioned way. I see that. But whether is it conditioned or not there is directing of the mind involved. And when that directing happens it is a remnant of self that thinks it is doing it, if you know what I mean. I don?ft know if that makes any sense. Ph: > > him that the work he will be doing will be the preliminary stages of > > a process that will lead to his being laid off! > .... > S: :-)I love the analogy (and all the others you give in other posts). > The problem is that the more you rely on this fellow and the more he seems > to be the answer to your prayers, the harder it'll be to ever lay him off > or to see the need to do so. In other words, self-view just leads to more > self-view. It never leads to insight. Ph: I must say I like this analogy too and will be thinking about it more. I also keep getting the image of the remnant of self being a person getting dressed in a beautiful way for a ceremony in which he will be sacrificed gently. Self becoming more purified, and wholesome, in order that it can be released, or dissolved even, in the light of true Dhamma. Christmas Humphries, who I understand was one of the people who helped to bring Buddhism to the West, wrote about self, Self and SELF, I remember, but I can?ft remember just what. The final SELF suggests a mistaken belief in something like an Atman, I guess, but I?fm interested in the idea that before self is fully understood to be a fiction, and is released, it can become a more refined fiction, a more wholesome fiction. As Sarah said this belief could lead to make it harder to finally let the fiction of self go, but I think that underestimates the power of the Buddha?fs teaching.. Constant exposure to the Buddha?fs teaching and good Dhamma friends would lead one eventually to waking up from the fiction, but there could be benefits in making the fiction more wholesome before closing the book on it. Possibly. It could also be that as a person who has an interest in writing stories, the fiction of self is accumulated in a way for me in a way that makes it so attractive that I have to finish the story in a good way before closing the book.. Well, I don?ft have time now to respond to the rest of the post, but I?fll be saving it and reading it carefully again. Metta, Phil 33069 From: robmoult Date: Sun May 16, 2004 7:17pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Kilesa (defilements) Hi Sarah, Christine and All --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > Hi RobM, Chris & All, > > Rob, your wise comments reminded me of some useful feedback I received > from a good friend (off-list) and I hope you may be able to add more. Sometimes an activity is a good way of driving home a point. Try the following: Take a piece of paper and write down all the letters of the alphabet (a - z) It probably took you less than 30 seconds and you didn't have to "fire too many neurons" to accomplish this task. Now write the letters of the alphabet (a - z) using "mirror writing" (the way that Leonardo DaVinci wrote, backwards so that the letters appear correct when viewed in a mirror). Unless you are DaVinci, it probably took you a lot longer than 30 seconds and you probably had to do a lot of thinking to get it correct (even then, you probably made a few mistakes). This activity drives home how ingrained habits are. Applying this to natural decisive support condition, we can see how pervaisive are our accumulations (both good and bad) in directing our lives. When we sit in meditation, we naturally perceive "mind" and "object" as separate entities. From this perspective, it is not too difficult to conceptualize anatta; there is no "self" in the object and there is no "self" in the mind, the mind works according to natural processes. Now we get up from meditation and notice our kid's room is messy. All of that mind / object dichotomy goes out the window and it is replaced by a strong sense of self, "*I* am angry. You have made *ME* angry, etc.. We all have problems maintaining the mind / object during daily life, but the underlying realities have not changed. What has changed is our perspective. Metta, Rob M :-) 33070 From: m. nease Date: Sun May 16, 2004 7:43pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Pannatti (Concept) Hi Jon, ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jonothan Abbott" To: Sent: Wednesday, May 12, 2004 7:07 AM Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Pannatti (Concept) > --- yu_zhonghao wrote: ... > you might find the following quote helpful: > "Now, lady, what are fabrications?" > "These three fabrications, friend Visakha: bodily fabrications, > verbal fabrications, & mental fabrications." > "But what are bodily fabrications? What are verbal fabrications? What > are mental fabrications?" > "In-&-out breaths are bodily fabrications. Directed thought & > evaluation are verbal fabrications. Perceptions & feelings are mental > fabrications." (Jon): > From what I've been able to find out, 'fabrications' ('sankhaaras') > in your quoted passage does not carry either of its more usual > meanings of (a) all conditioned dhammas (i.e. the five aggregates), > or (b) the mental states comprising the fourth aggregate > ('sankhaara-khandha'). Instead it carries a more specialised meaning > that has relevance in the context of the attainment of cessation (as > M. 44 goes on to deal with). > > According to the introductory note to Bhikkhu Bodhi's translation of > the Majjhima Nikaya ('Middle Length Discourses of the Buddha', p55): > > <<< > The word 'sankhaara' occurs in four major contexts in the Pali > suttas: > (1) As the second factor in the formula of dependent origination it > is used to mean volitional actions ... > (2) As the fourth of the five aggregates the 'sankhaaras' comprise > all the mental factors not included in the other three mental > aggregates ... > (3) 'Sankhaara' is also used in a very comprehensive sense to > signify everything produced by conditions. In this sense it > comprises all five aggregates ... > (4) In still another context the word 'sankhaara' is used in > relation to 'kaaya', 'vacii' and 'citta' -- body, speech and mind -- > to mean the bodily formation, which is in-and-out breathing; the > verbal formation, which is applied thought and sustained thought; and > the mental formation, which is perception and feeling. ... > 'Sankhaara' is also employed outside these major contexts ..." > > A similar set of meanings is given in Nyanatiloka's 'Buddhist > Dictionary' (copied below). Both writings make reference to M. 44 in > the context of the definition appropriate to your quoted passage (No > 4 in Bhikkhu Bodhi's, No 2 in Nyanatiloka's). > > Of interest on the general subject of 'dhammas' etc. is that in > Bhikkhu Bodhi's notes he adds, in relation to the third meaning given > above: > "This usage comes close in meaning to the ontological use of > 'dhamma', except that the latter is wider in range since it includes > the unconditioned element Nibbaana and concepts ('pannatti'), both of > which are excluded from 'sankhaara'." > > I hope this helps resolve any apparent disparity in my statement and > your sutta quote. In my opinion it not only does so, but is also a nice bit of homework, showing the potential ambiguities in various translations of 'sankhaara'. Confusing the different meanings of this word in different contexts is potentially disastrous, I think. mike 33071 From: m. nease Date: Sun May 16, 2004 8:53pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Appreciating Abhidhamma (was abhidhamma and citta #2206) Hi Again Kom, ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kom Tukovinit" To: Sent: Friday, May 07, 2004 9:36 AM Subject: Re: [dsg] Appreciating Abhidhamma (was abhidhamma and citta #2206) > A friend reminded me responding to my previous post that what I > should have said was that materiality or mentality rises because of > its conditions, performs its individual functions together with its > own characteristics, and then falls away. A good friend indeed in my opinion. mike 33072 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Sun May 16, 2004 9:24pm Subject: Re: Breath as bodily formation (was, Pannatti (Concept)) Hi Howard, Breaths/in-&-out breathings are inconstant, dukkha, not self, and it is to be seen as it actually is thus: inconstant, dukkha, not self. Breaths/in-&-out breathings are bodily fabrications, and bodily fabrications are conditioned, not unconditioned. Metta, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Jon (and Victor) - [snip] > However, one can also truthfully say, but derivatively, conv > entionally, and abbreviationally, that breath, too, is anicca, dukkha, and anatta. It is > just that one should be very careful and very clear in one's mind as to > exactly what is meant when that is said. The sense in which anicca and anatta, > especially, apply to conventional objects is their applying to the actual > phenomena that underlie them. As the underlying phenomena arise and cease, the > conventional object appears to change. > Dukkha, however, applies not only derivatively to conventional > objects, but also directly, because dukkha depends on mind. There is the following: > __________________________ > > ... association with the unbeloved is dukkha; separation from the loved is > > dukkha; not getting what is wanted is dukkha > ---------------------------------------------- > I do believe that the "things" that are unloved etc are conventional > objects, including persons. Grief can arise, for example, at least as strongly > with regard to the loss of a fictitious entity believed to be real as with > regard to an actual phenomenon. > > With metta, > Howard 33073 From: Robert Epstein Date: Sun May 16, 2004 10:58pm Subject: Formal Sitting or Natural Arising? (was: Re: Video Games?) Dear Sukin, Thank you for your response. I see I am now behind a few posts in this thread -- hope I can catch up. I am going straight to your comment below on meditation, after making an overall comment on the earlier part of your post, which I have snipped. I understand your objections to my characterization of pariyatti as an activity. My reason for doing so is not because of a continued misunderstanding of the word "practice" but because I have tried to show that anything we do with an intention will carry the expectations of that intention, and that sutta study, even for Right Understanding, necessarily has an intention. Leaving that point aside, however, you make a very valid argument that sutta study has an unique characteristic, which is that of basic intellectual understanding, and that without such understanding there can be no Right View. I think this and the point you make below about meditation are the crux of the matter between us, so I will focus on them for this part of the post. The matter comes down to whether intellectual understanding of the suttas is indeed the primary foundation for Right View, and to what extent that is the baseline involvement that leads to mindfulness, wisdom and enlightenment. The meditative traditions do indeed feel that direct discernment of realities is more important that sutta study, in that reality is before one, not primarily in a book, and that after a basic understanding of the suttas, too much involvement in intellectual study can actually be a block to discernment of realities. I would say that a healthy balance is what is called for, so that one does not develop wrong ideas, but also doesn't depend on right ideas that are primarily of the intellect. I tend to look at things practically, and to my understanding what we do defines our way of thinking. If we spend most of our time reading books, our outlook will be "bookish." Our personalities are malleable enough that we will be shaped by the environment to which we are subjected to a good extent. If we spend time sitting silently observing realities we will be more inclined to pay attention to the moment and begin to see what is in front of our nose. I know you don't think that "looking" gives a correct approach in and of itself, and I respect your view, but I do not totally agree with it. I agree to the extent that sitting around looking with the mind focussed on achievement would bolster the ego -- I can understand that argument. But what I cannot understand is that you seem to negate any positive impact of sitting and discerning the moment, even though this is supposed to be the actual activity of mindfulness. This does not make sense to me. The argument that having this purpose to improve mindfulness will block mindfulness and lead to akusala perceptions and results, also only makes sense to me up to a point. If one looks at even one's own intentions for achievement and treats them to the same discernment as any other arising reality, this seems to me to at least partially solve that problem, or at least move in that direction. You seem to give the possibility of having a "pure" approach to direct discernment absolutely no credence or chance of success. I don't understand what seems to be a blanket prejudice towards such an action. I admit that without some sutta study to understand what the four noble truths, eightfold path and mechanisms by which mindfulness develops, it would be very difficult to function properly on the path. but the question is, how centered is the path in this one area, and what else is included in the path. Now let me go to your comment below: --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Sukinderpal Singh Narula" wrote: > Formal meditation may or may not be one such experience, however > since it usually relates to what we understand by `right practice', this > makes it quite unlikely that satipatthana will ever arise. Because it is fed > with the idea that an object other than what is arising now in the > moment, is more suitable. This I do not understand at all. Meditation is just the opposite of what you describe. Rather than looking for another object that is more suitable to arise, all of the meditation approaches that I am familiar with have the intention of discerning exactly what is currently arising, not to replace it with something else. You could not allow for the value of the jhanas, which the Buddha certainly saw as a valuable asset on the path, or any other direct development of concentration or discernment without seeing the possibility of meditation that is not motivated by akusala motives, but is in line with the principles of direct undestanding of cittas. It has to be a possibility, otherwise anything we do that is geared towards understanding realities will have the same flaw. i don't know what your understanding of meditation is, or if you have ever practiced it yourself, but it seems inaccurate to me. Buddhist meditation is Buddhist meditation because it is founded in Buddhism. It is not against the principles of Buddhism, it is derived from them and is the expression of them. Buddhist meditation does not try to elevate one's state or replace it with another. Like all things in Buddhism it looks at them directly in the moment to discern their reality. With such an idea also one can't avoid self- > view, the root of all wrong views. Why do you assume this is true of meditation? With all we have said you have provided no rationale why this is more so in meditation than in any of the involvements that you think are more kusala. You don't like me to compare meditation to sutta study but I have seen no rationale for why the same prejudices that can arise in regard to meditation cannot be equally hampering in sutta study. It seems to me that you ar basing your view on sutta study being better than meditation as a way to reach understanding. You have said that it is not the activity but the View which gives rise to kusala or akusala results, yet you wind up saying that meditation itself is more prone to akusala because it promotes an akusala attitude and so you are back to comparing the activities rather than the View. So no matter what we then say to > justify our practice, it will be chained to `self'. And there can't be > any `release of expectation', because this may be hidden. Besides there > is no one who does this, only panna (even if this be on the level of > pariyatti) does not expect. I still don't see how this evil only arises with respect to meditation. This seems like a prejudice against the activity to me. And not true to my experience. [taking "my" as a convention of course.] > We may see the difference between pariyatti and patipatti, and know > that compared to the latter, the former is indeed limited. And we may > also realize how much precious time is being wasted, `not practicing'. > But what can be done? I mentioned in my last post to Ken H and Sarah > about a level of intellectual understanding called `sacca nnana'. When > panna develops to the level of being firm in the understanding of the > 4NT, where proliferation through the six sense doors is seen over and > over again and understood, only this panna can condition repeated > going back to the arising dhamma. You describe going back to the arising dhamma over and over again, but simply rule out meditation which was founded in Buddhism for this very reason. It defies understanding why this exact mechanism that is meant for this purpose would be the one practice that would be stricken from your list of skillful means. And this would be the constant > mindfulness which some of us hope to achieve but which many think > they have when they `sit'. Why do you assume that the meditator has this presumption? They are "hoping to achieve it" somewhere down the road just as anyone is. And even then, the experience will be very > sporadic since kilesas have not been eradicated. In fact even for a low > level ariyan, the mindfulness is interspersed with moha and other > akusala and kusala. And `insight' which is what is being developed, > happens in flashes. But is this the kind of experience of a meditator? I > don't think so. > > I know Rob, that I have only made bold statements. I did make notes on > paper to reply in text, but decided against it because it would have been > too long. I hope you don't mind that on receiving a response from you, I > decide for some reason to drop this discussion. I have only so much > stamina I think. > > Metta, > Sukin. Okay. Well, I appreciate your effort, and thanks for the conversation. Best, Robert 33075 From: Robert Epstein Date: Sun May 16, 2004 11:14pm Subject: Formal Sitting or Natural Arising? (was: Re: Video Games?) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Sukinderpal Singh Narula" wrote: > Hi Rob, > > Yesterday a couple of things were disturbing me, both of which lasted > till the end of the day. Today things are different, so I look back at my > post I wrote to you yesterday with some regret. I take back what I said > in the end about possibly not wanting to continue this thread, sorry for > that. :-) No problem. I am catching up after the fact, so forgive me for that. I have already replied to your other post, so I will continue from there. > > I am still looking for a principled reason why reading in order to > > understand is inherently different in intent or character from sitting > > in order to understand. Why is intellectual understanding as an > > intention better than sitting to follow Buddha's words and allow > > discernment to arise? To the same extent that one can allow > > intellectual understanding to arise and allow moments of direct > > understanding, however weak, to arise, same can be said for sitting to > > allow observation and discernment to take place. So what is the > > inherent difference, assuming that one can have Right View or Wrong > > View in either case? > > I have the following view; let me know what you think. > The reason that we need to listen to or read about dhammas, is that it > provides us with a level of understanding about the nature of realities. So far I agree. I > believe we are constantly interpreting our experiences; however there > is always some lingering doubt with regard to whether or not we really > understand. Agreed. And this seems to reach out to and cover other aspects of > life. So for me, reading is done with the idea that there is a better > explanation about the nature of experience. this is understandable and a good explanation of how we reach out for greater wisdom than we have. Thankfully, the Buddha is there. Like most people, I had > been satisfied with all kinds of explanations evolving from wrong view. > The Buddha's teachings, particularly the Abhidhamma aspect of it, are > not only the most convincing explanation so far, but it points to present > moment experiences which can to some degree be verified. It is not just > a theory that I need to project on to experiences, as every other > teaching has been. Here it is *understanding* which is accompanied by > a level of detachment, whereas other teachings and theories only > causes to be further caught in conceptualizations and always with a > degree of attachment. Well I will say that the breakdown of the mechanism of consciousness in Abhidhamma is certainly one of the most thorough, and gives a strong basis for understanding what may constitute present realities. > The understanding is `conceptual', but they point to this moment of > experience, and this already makes a world of a difference in terms of > confidence and ground for further understanding. And this is why > any "doing" in time and involving the illusory `self' is seen as being > misguided. Everything you say up to the last sentence is very clear and sensible. The conclusion however does not seem to follow. You have not laid a basis for saying that "any doing in time" must involve the illusory "self", or that "any doing in time is therefore misguided. Again, it would be the view or thought process that accompanies the doing in time that would make it misguided or not misguided. This would go for anything, even misguided sutta study. i know I am horribly repeating this point over and over again, but it is the point to be dealt with i think. > But what about paying attention now? Well, when the idea comes to the > mind about paying attention to the momentary phenomena, even this is > an `idea', a concept "about" now. The moment has already fallen away, > but we want to catch it. What dominates at this point is the desire > to `see', and here we have planted the seed for the illusion of result. If > our practice is all about `understanding', then it understands > what "appears" and does not seek more. If this happens only for a > fraction of a second, followed by the usual set of akusala, then we must > understand that this is how it is and supposed to be, given the unlimited > store of akusala. And what appears may be the `thought' about realities, > and so this can be known too! There is absolutely no reason why one cannot do all of the above in meditation. the buddhist meditation I am familiar with from several schools would have you do exactly what you describe: discern current realities, and if an akusala thought process arises, just discern that as well. the term "choiceless awareness" is even used in some meditation practices. > However because desire always points to something other than what is > the arising dhamma, this `thinking' will not be seen. Instead we have > been caught in the story which is the object of this thinking. And this can > be thinking about thinking even. And with the expectation of seeing the > Tilakkhana and other characteristics, we will perceive a conceptual > expression of these. This is possible, just as we cannot deny that > objects don't last and beings are born and die, so too when thoughts, > feelings, sounds and so on appear to arise and subside, the knowledge > is formed. > However, this is not the development of panna, because this too is just > concept, though because it seems micro compared to the macro births > and deaths in the conventional world, if we mistake these as being the > actual perception of rise and fall of namas and rupas, then we are going > to be fooled for a long time. Well I hate to say this, but it seems to me that this may be a very great danger in the practice of Abhidhamma, which seems to give a very good breakdown of realities in great detail and gives as its goal the direct discerment of not only the object of citta but its accompanying mechanisms and attributes. Isn't it a strong possibilty that we will attempt to see all these things and constantly mistake an intellectual object for a real one? Or at least keep trying to "capture" a real object with our intellectual udnerstanding? And by the way, what is the alternative? If we are not "fast" enough to catch the mechanism taking place or to see a rupa up close with complete discernment, what in fact are we doing in Abdhidhamma? Just reading and understanding? If there is no "moment" in the practice in which reality is discerned, there is little hope of activating the Noble Eightfold Path or even getting close. > And when one talks about `allowing things to happen' or `being without' > expectations, even these are ideas centered on self. The self can't > decide to be detached; this is the function of panna when on > understanding a dhamma, sees nothing to hold on to. Any such idea > about `letting go' and so on, is an instance of wrong view which does > not see that dhammas can't be held on to, to begin with. If panna arises > and knows attachment for instance, it does not need to be told to `let > go'. > > So how are the two different, reading and listening on the one hand, > and formal meditation and trying to catch realities on the other? > Intellectual understanding implies also that this is different from direct > understanding of realities. It understands on this level that realities arise > and fall in an instant. That sati and panna arises not because of any > concentrated activity, these being vague `conceptual ideas' formed as a > result of either not knowing intellectually about the nature of realities > and/or sincerely believing that the Buddha taught such a practice. As an > intended activity it approaches written words or sound without any > expectation of what these will convey. But more importantly what > is `understood' subsequently is seen as purely conceptual with no > thought that the `real' thing is known. Formal meditation does not > acknowledge this kind of distinction; it believes that it directly knows > realities, when in fact it does not. I think meditation thinks that it intends to know realities, but does not arrogantly assume that it does. I think you give too little credit to the committed Buddhist meditator. He seems to be a kind of very unschooled person who doesn't know the first thing about Buddhism, whereas he could even be an Abhidhammika who also believes in meditating, like Howard. > And now I will leave it to you to figure out what the implications of this > are. ;-) > > This I think is enough for now. I may write more tomorrow. > > Metta, > Sukin. Thank you Sukin. I think we are into a very important and frustrating area where the rubber meets the road so to speak. At the altar of reality, we have to be willing to give up all our treasured notions. Perhaps I will wind up devoting myself to study, why you must take up the meditation cushion -- just punishment for us both!! Best, Robert 33077 From: Robert Epstein Date: Sun May 16, 2004 11:25pm Subject: [dsg] Formal Sitting or Natural Arising? (was: Re: Video Games?) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Sukin (and Rob) - > > In a message dated 5/11/04 5:54:15 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > sukinder@k... writes: > > > I have the following view; let me know what you think. > > The reason that we need to listen to or read about dhammas, is that it > > provides us with a level of understanding about the nature of realities. > > > ---------------------------------------- > Howard: > We don't know that for a fact. What it provides us with is a level of > belief, as does any other theory. > ---------------------------------------- check. > I > > > believe we are constantly interpreting our experiences; however there > > is always some lingering doubt with regard to whether or not we really > > understand. And this seems to reach out to and cover other aspects of > > life. So for me, reading is done with the idea that there is a better > > explanation about the nature of experience. Like most people, I had > > been satisfied with all kinds of explanations evolving from wrong view. > > > ------------------------------------------ > Howard: > The detailed picture painted by Abhidhamma is one of many > "explanations". For that matter, so is the picture painted by the Sutta Pitaka, but what > is emphasized there is a training program that one may try in order to "come > and see," directly, for oneself. > ------------------------------------------- check. > > The Buddha's teachings, particularly the Abhidhamma aspect of it, are > > not only the most convincing explanation so far, but it points to present > > moment experiences which can to some degree be verified. It is not just > > a theory that I need to project on to experiences, as every other > > teaching has been. Here it is *understanding* which is accompanied by > > a level of detachment, whereas other teachings and theories only > > causes to be further caught in conceptualizations and always with a > > degree of attachment. > > -------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Here we are in agreement. > --------------------------------------------- me too, although I don't think it's totally exclusive. > > The understanding is `conceptual', but they point to this moment of > > experience, and this already makes a world of a difference in terms of > > confidence and ground for further understanding. And this is why > > any "doing" in time and involving the illusory `self' is seen as being > > misguided. > > > ------------------------------------------- > Howard: > There *must* be doing, whether we put 'doing' in quotes or not. If > nothing special is done, then one is merely left with belief, and belief will not > liberate. > ------------------------------------------- thank you for making this point so succinctly. you seem clearer than me these days, Howard. I'll have to go on a meditation retreat. : ) > > > > But what about paying attention now? Well, when the idea comes to the > > mind about paying attention to the momentary phenomena, even this is > > an `idea', a concept "about" now. The moment has already fallen away, > > but we want to catch it. What dominates at this point is the desire > > to `see', and here we have planted the seed for the illusion of result. > > > ------------------------------------------------ > Howard: > We have also planted the seed to be constantly mindful, guarding the > senses, and not just playing an impossible game of "catch up". To be mindful, > attentive, and clearly comprehending requires intention, effort, and vigilence. > ------------------------------------------------ > > If > > > our practice is all about `understanding', then it understands > > what "appears" and does not seek more. If this happens only for a > > fraction of a second, followed by the usual set of akusala, then we must > > understand that this is how it is and supposed to be, given the unlimited > > store of akusala. And what appears may be the `thought' about realities, > > and so this can be known too! > > > > However because desire always points to something other than what is > > the arising dhamma, this `thinking' will not be seen. Instead we have > > been caught in the story which is the object of this thinking. And this can > > be thinking about thinking even. And with the expectation of seeing the > > Tilakkhana and other characteristics, we will perceive a conceptual > > expression of these. This is possible, just as we cannot deny that > > objects don't last and beings are born and die, so too when thoughts, > > feelings, sounds and so on appear to arise and subside, the knowledge > > is formed. > > However, this is not the development of panna, because this too is just > > concept, though because it seems micro compared to the macro births > > and deaths in the conventional world, if we mistake these as being the > > actual perception of rise and fall of namas and rupas, then we are going > > to be fooled for a long time. > > > ---------------------------------------- > Howard: > If what you are saying here is that mentally rehearsing what is > supposed to be the nature of what one is observing is no substitute for intent > observing, itself, then I agree. > -------------------------------------- and intent observing must also take place, not just the rehearsal. > > > > And when one talks about `allowing things to happen' or `being without' > > expectations, even these are ideas centered on self. The self can't > > decide to be detached; this is the function of panna when on > > understanding a dhamma, sees nothing to hold on to. Any such idea > > about `letting go' and so on, is an instance of wrong view which does > > not see that dhammas can't be held on to, to begin with. If panna arises > > and knows attachment for instance, it does not need to be told to `let > > go'. > > > > So how are the two different, reading and listening on the one hand, > > and formal meditation and trying to catch realities on the other? > > > ------------------------------------------- > Howard: > When meditating, formally or otherwise, one doesn't (or shouldn't) try > to "catch realities". One simply attends to the flow of experience, with some > degree or other of restrictedness, and with as much intent, energy, > mindfulness, and attention as one can muster. With the cooperation of other conditions, > this cultivates the mind, strengthening useful mental factors. > ------------------------------------------- check. > > Intellectual understanding implies also that this is different from direct > > understanding of realities. It understands on this level that realities > > arise > > and fall in an instant. That sati and panna arises not because of any > > concentrated activity, these being vague `conceptual ideas' formed as a > > result of either not knowing intellectually about the nature of realities > > and/or sincerely believing that the Buddha taught such a practice. > > > ------------------------------------------ > Howard: > Please excuse my bluntness on this point, but I think this is > nonsense. The Buddha most assuredly taught practices for cultivating the mind, and > sati and pa~n~na do not develop and strengthen randomly. Of course "realities > arise > and fall in an instant," but they always arise and fall due to conditions, > not randomly, and the Buddha most explicitly provided techniques for us to > practice, genuine *actions* (!) to carry out, to cultivate such conditions. > ------------------------------------------- check. > As an > > > intended activity it approaches written words or sound without any > > expectation of what these will convey. But more importantly what > > is `understood' subsequently is seen as purely conceptual with no > > thought that the `real' thing is known. Formal meditation does not > > acknowledge this kind of distinction; it believes that it directly knows > > realities, when in fact it does not. > > > ----------------------------------- > Howard: > Formal meditation does nothing of the sort - "it" does not believe > that it "directly knows realities" or anything else. Formal meditation is a > cultivating activity, pure and simple. The results will be what they will be. The > proof is in the pudding. Ehipassika. > ------------------------------------ > > > And now I will leave it to you to figure out what the implications of this > > are. ;-) > > > > This I think is enough for now. I may write more tomorrow. > > > > Metta, > > Sukin. > > > ========================= > With metta, > Howard > > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble > in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a > phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) Howard, I appreciate the clarity of your points. Best, Robert Ep. 33078 From: Robert Epstein Date: Sun May 16, 2004 11:29pm Subject: Formal Sitting or Natural Arising? (was: Re: Video Games?) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > ------------------- > S: > But today, I was reminded by Betty with regard to another > question of mine, about the need to have a `definite answer'. Why is > there not enough confidence to leave it all to sati and panna to > shed the light? > ---------------------- > > So we should we stick to the curriculum? :-) > > ------------------------- > S: > If there is no panna to know the fact now, at least we can > remember to have patience, courage and good cheer. ;-) > ------------------------ > > I appreciate the reminder. And, of course, there is no self who can > have patience, courage and good cheer or even remember to have them. > So there is no obligation -- the Dhamma is a blessing, not a burden. > > Kind regards, > Ken H This is really nicely put Ken. It is kind of....liberating. Thanks for saying this. Best, Robert Ep. 33080 From: Sarah Date: Mon May 17, 2004 0:08am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Self-views (was: Not entering the Stream in Mahayana) Hi Suravira (Jack &RobM*, Andrew**), --- Suravira wrote: > [Suravira] If you wish, I can provide transcripts of the shows for > distribution within this group. It would likely prove to be a great > benefit to me to have feedback on the transcripts from participants > in this group (prior to final broadcast recording). .... S: It would be interesting to see them and as you suggest, you may get some useful feedback and of course you can pick and choose what feedback to take not of;-). I’ve no idea how long your transcripts are, but if the segments are more than a couple of pages, I suggest you break them into different posts as they’re more likely to be read and commented on that way. *Jack, I’m sure we’d all be interested to read your article on Dana too. I agree that RobM’s summary contained a wealth of useful info. Again, if yours is a long one like his, I’d suggest breaking it into a few manageable chunks spread over a few days or even weeks as many people just scroll through posts quickly and miss a lot otherwise. .... > [Suravira] Yes, whatever the date or culture, the same 20 must be > understood and eradicated. The challenge when sharing the profound > and subtle wisdom contained within the Brahmajala Sutta is > expressing it in a manner that does not defile it - by that I mean > avoiding the cultivation of further or ancilliary false views that > arise in the audience member in response to the 20 sakkaya-ditthi. ...... S: Yes, it is a challenge which I think very much depends on our own (limited) understanding. “Now, householder, as to those divers views that arise in the world,.....and as to these sixty-two views set forth in the Brahmajaala, it is owing to the personality view that they arise, and if the personality view exists not, they do not exist.” (S.1V.7.3). Btw, do you have a copy of B.Bodhi’s translation of the sutta and commentaries? It’s a wonderful text from the BPS. **Andrew, do you have it? Metta, Sarah ====== 33081 From: Sarah Date: Mon May 17, 2004 1:31am Subject: Re: [dsg] Hetu Paccaya Initiation ( 02 ) Hi Htoo & All, I found your two ‘Hetu Paccaya Initiation’ extracts 1 and 2 with your extra explanations to be clear and helpful. The format and length were just right and they were easier to ‘digest’. Please keep up the Initiations for us average folk here;-). Some of your comments reminded me of these from CMA (ed by B.Bodhi), Compendium of the Miscellaneous, Guide to #5: ‘Analysis of roots: In this section all types of consciousness are classified by way of their concomitant ‘hetus’ or ‘roots’. In the Suttas the word ‘hetu’ is used in the general sense of cause or reason (kaara.na). There it is synonymous with the word ‘paccaya’, condition, with which it is often conjoined, and it applies to any phenomenon that functions as a cause or reason for other things. In the Abhidhamma, however, ‘hetu’ is used exclusively in the specialized sense of root (‘muula), and it is restricted in application to six mental factors representing ethically significant qualities. “Formally defined, a root is a mental factor which establishes firmness and stability in the cittas and cetasikas with which it is associated. for it is said that those cittas that possess roots are firm and stable, like trees, while those that are rootless are weak and unstable, like moss (Vism XV11,70).” ***** S: I’d just like to add a couple of further comments: 1) --- htootintnaing wrote: > > Adosa is a cetasika. It is non-hurting nature. When we want people > healthy we have adosa cetasika. This can be seen in case of parents > who have children and who do not have any disease. But parent still > have non-hurting mind adosa on their children as 'may they be > healthy'. Adosa can also be called metta. But adosa will be much more > appropriate for any case. .... S: I think that by your last sentence you are meaning to stress that adosa has a wider meaning. While it may appear as metta when the proximate cause is seeing beings as lovable, adosa does not necessarily have beings as object and there is not always metta when the cittas are sobhana (beautiful). On the other hand, adosa is one of the 19 sobhana cetasikas that always arise with sobhana cittas. For example, if there is awareness of visible object or patience with unpleasant objects, there is non-aversion (adosa) present. Again from CMA, Compendium of Mental Factors, Guide to #5: “Non-hatred (adosa): Non-greed has the characteristic of lack of ferocity, or of non-opposing. its function is to remove annoyance, or to remove fever, and its manifestation is agreeableness. Non-hatred comprises such positive virtues as loving-kindness, gentleness, amity, friendliness, etc.” ***** 2)> Vipaka cittas > arise in both arahats and non-arahats. But kiriya cittas arise only > in arahats. ..... S: I think that here you are referring to the kiriya cittas in the javana processes of the arahant which take the place of kusala and akusala cittas. As you said, they are ‘without any kamma potential’. Of course there are other kiriya cittas in both the arahant and non-arahant: i.e the asobhana kiriya cittas which are the pa~nca-dvaaraavajjana-citta (five sense door adverting consciousness), the mano-dvaaraavajjana-citta (mind door adverting consciousness) and the hasituppaada citta (smile producing consciousness) just in the arahant. Of course these are ahetuka (without roots) and I think you were referring in context to just the kiriya cittas with roots in arahants. When we were last in Bangkok we were discussing more about rebirth consciousness with no roots, two roots and three roots. Perhaps you can discuss it further. A human being can be born with rebirth consciousness which is ahetuka (rootless) or accompanied by two roots (alobha and adosa) or 3 roots (+amoha). Insight can only be developed for those born with 3 roots. Nina gives more detail in her book, ADL, ch11, ‘Different Types of Pa.tisandhi Citta’. Even if the rebirth consciousness (and all subsequent bhavanga cittas and the cuti citta - death consciousness) are not accompanied by these beautiful roots, these cittas are still kusala vipaka (results of good deeds). These people have various defects from conception such as blindness or deafness. Only one kind of rebirth consciousness is akusala vipaka and it only arises in woeful planes which include the animal plane, the peta plane, the asura plane and the hell planes. These akusala vipaka cittas (rebirth and subsequent bhavanga and cuti citta) are also ahetuka (without roots). I hope I’ve got all that right. So what was being stressed was that in the human realm, there are only a very few kinds of akusala vipaka (I think just the 5 sense-door experiencing consciousness, and the following receiving and investigating consciousness, all of which are ahetuka and may be kusala or akusala vipaka). On the contrary, kusala cittas bring many kinds of results, with and without roots. Again, I find it helpful as it’s a reminder of how very few and brief the moments of akusala vipaka are and how ‘magnified’ they are by the subsequent akusala cittas in the javana process. Htoo, now I’ve also written a compact post with far too much detail but I’ve found it helpful to reflect further and I thank you for this. I’ll look forward to any of your comments or corrections and to your further hetu paccaya initiation series. Metta, Sarah ===== 33082 From: Sarah Date: Mon May 17, 2004 1:53am Subject: Re: [dsg] A Wandering Mind Hi Larry (Sukin & Ken H) I meant to say that what you wrote below (to Michelle) rang many bells and I agreed with all your comments: --- LBIDD@w... wrote: > Recently I have been taking thinking as an object of contemplation. I > see that I am attached to thinking. I like to figure things out and see > things in a new way and I like to anticipate any problems I might have > in my day and solve those problems in my mind. This attachment > invariably leads to anger and unpleasant feeling when things don't work > out as I had hoped. The fault is not so much with the thinking but > rather with the attachment to thinking. This attachment is greedy, > craving pleasant feeling which never lasts and always wants more. Plus > there is a certain amount of fear; what will I do if I don't think??? I > might make a mistake, fail somehow, or, worse still, become bored. All > of these fears come with nothing but painful feeling. The only solution > to all this fear is just to let go of it. Be here with whatever arises. .... Once when K.Sujin was visiting me in England, we were taking a walk in Kew Gardens as I recall. I was asking what I thought were rather profound questions and I recall her saying: “Khun Sarah, you think too much.” It rather stopped me in my track and had a big impact on me. I had thought the Dhamma needed to all be thought and thought about and I’m sure there was (and still is) a lot of attachment and fear involved as you suggest. But as Sukin and Ken H have been discussing too, thinking about thinking is not the same as awareness of thinking. K.Sujin didn’t mean that I should try to think less (it’s conditioned just as it is already), but was encouraging me (or rather sati) to be aware of thinking momentarily, instead of clinging to it and having some idea that there could be any development by thinking on and on about various concepts. Just a moment of awareness of this or any other reality is so very precious and really is like a very magical healing balm . Slowly understanding can begin to know the difference between such moments with and without awareness and again this is different from conceptually considering and trying to work it all out. I think again this is the point that Sukin was making after his discussion with K.Sujin in which she was stressing the attachment involved when he was ‘wanting to get the facts right’;-). As he said, ‘lobha is all the time ready to lead us off-track’. Thank you again for your kind comments above which resonated so much with my experience. Metta, Sarah ======== 33083 From: Sarah Date: Mon May 17, 2004 2:44am Subject: Re: [dsg] Kilesa (defilements) Hi Christine, --- christine_forsyth wrote: > Hello Sarah, and all, > > How lovely that you found the ear-ring. :-) It is NOT hot and sunny > here - I'm glad you are having days on the beach. Here, the human > has a head cold, and the dog has the heater. (He has arthritis). > Does the kusala from the good deed outweigh occasionally regretting > of it? :-) :-) .... :-) it’s at this time of year for the next few months that we’d happily trade some sun, heat and humidity for a few cool breezes. And yes, being very susceptible to gain and loss of material goods like ear-rings, it did put me in a rather good mood. Perhaps Victor can give me some reminders about being ensnared by such attachments..... ..... > > Yes, that's the post by Jon that I was thinking of. Good one, > hey! > > In the quote to Victor, there is the line - "He has severed > craving, thrown off the fetters, and -- through the right > penetration of conceit -- has made an end of suffering & stress." .... S: In note 50 to the ~Naa.namoli/Bodhi transl we are told that ‘The ‘penetration of conceit’ (maanaabhisamaya) means seeing ‘through’ conceit and abandoning it, which are both accomplished simultaneously by the path of arahantship.’ ..... > Conceit seems to play a large role in everything - even in my > hesitating to ask just how, in case you or RobK has explained it in > detail before, and I've not retained the memory. :-) Is it that we > are only irritated, fearful etc. if we, firstly, have a sense that > there is a self, and that the self we feel we have is important? ... S: I like your example of conceit playing its large role at every turn, ‘even in my hesitating to ask.....’. Good example. When we feel embarrassed or shown up in some way or our ignorance or other kilesa are on display, conceit causes the concern and unhappy feelings on account of the importance we place on our self-image I think. We are concerned with ourselves and how we are perceived at these times. The banner is flying. It is this attachment with conceit that is so easily followed by the irritation or fear you mention when the image is dented. I think examples of hesitating to ask for help are good ones. Of course there may be other more noble motives at any time for the hesitation, such as not wanting to trouble someone for example. But,I know for myself too, that conceit comes into the equation very often. I can almost feel myself blushing sometimes when I ask a question in Bangkok that I know I’ve asked many times before (and also not retained the answer) or when I read over a post I’ve written and find lots of typos for example. Of course, when we are irritated, it is bound to be conditioned by attachment to self and our sense experiences. Nina mentioned the example K.Sujin gives about feeling tired even. It doesn’t mean there is necessarily and wrong self-view involved at these times however. A sotapanna has a long way to go until attachment with and without conceit is eradicated, but no self-view (sakkaya ditthi). Again, I think it’s only awareness with understanding that can know at any moment what the reality is and whether it’s just attachment to oneself or conceit or some kind of self view. Obviously from your ‘hesitating to ask’ example, the characteristic of conceit is becoming apparent and we can begin to see how very common it is. As you also said in your other post, different people have different reactions to the same phenomena and we can only know for ourselves what the truth at any moment really is. Does this help at all? Please don’t hestitate to raise questions any number of times. You do us all a favour. Metta, Sarah ====== 33084 From: Date: Mon May 17, 2004 1:55am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Breath as bodily formation (was, Pannatti (Concept)) Hi, Victor - In a message dated 5/17/04 12:50:51 AM Eastern Daylight Time, yu_zhonghao@y... writes: > Hi Howard, > > Breaths/in-&-out breathings are inconstant, dukkha, not self, and it > is to be seen as it actually is thus: inconstant, dukkha, not > self. > > Breaths/in-&-out breathings are bodily fabrications, and bodily > fabrications are conditioned, not unconditioned. > > Metta, > Victor > =========================== I understand that you don't make the actual-versus-conventional distinction. I do make that distinction. I understand what you say above as true, but you and I don't view it in exactly the same way. So it is. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 33085 From: Sarah Date: Mon May 17, 2004 5:54am Subject: Re: [dsg] Hetu Paccaya Initiation ( 02 ) Typo: --- Sarah wrote: >Again from CMA, Compendium of Mental > Factors, Guide to #5: > > “Non-hatred (adosa): Non-greed has the characteristic of .... ..... should read: "Non-hatred (adosa): Non-hatred has the characteristic of...... 33086 From: Sarah Date: Mon May 17, 2004 5:58am Subject: Re: [dsg] Formal Sitting or Natural Arising? (was: Re: Video Games?) Hi Rob Ep (& Howard), --- Robert Epstein wrote: > > > thank you for making this point so succinctly. you seem clearer than > me these days, Howard. I'll have to go on a meditation retreat. : ) ..... ....Or hang around more regularly on DSG like Howard does :-) Metta, Sarah ====== 33087 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon May 17, 2004 7:15am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Anapanasati Sutta (was, Pannatti (Concept)) Victor The purpose of my post was to discusses the passage from the Anapanasati Sutta that you quoted in your earlier post. The only 'issue' here, as far as I'm concerned, is the meaning of that utterance by the Buddha. As you may recall, the same passage has been mentioned a number of times by different members lately, so it is quite topical. My comments are directed to the meaning of the passage in general, and are not meant to be a response to your statement in particular (although it seems to me that our reading of the passage differs). As I say, the passage has been the subject of comments from a number of different members lately, and these have no doubt played a part in my present interest in the matter. I'd be very happy to hear your views on this general area. Hoping to hear back from you soon. Jon --- yu_zhonghao wrote: > Hi Jon, > > Let me respond in context. > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott > wrote: > > Victor, and Rob Ep > > > > Victor, I'd like to come back to a post of yours that I answered > in > > part before. I've included Rob Ep above because the same issue > has > > been raised by him in recent posts. > > > > What exactly is the issue in discussion? > > 33088 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Mon May 17, 2004 7:48am Subject: [dsg] Re: Anapanasati Sutta (was, Pannatti (Concept)) Hi Jon, So what does the passage "Mindfulness of in-&-out breathing, when developed & pursued, is of great fruit, of great benefit. Mindfulness of in-&-out breathing, when developed & pursued, brings the four frames of reference to their culmination. The four frames of reference, when developed & pursued, bring the seven factors for Awakening to their culmination. The seven factors for Awakening, when developed & pursued, bring clear knowing & release to their culmination." mean, given the context that you provided? Metta, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Victor > > The purpose of my post was to discusses the passage from the > Anapanasati Sutta that you quoted in your earlier post. The only > 'issue' here, as far as I'm concerned, is the meaning of that > utterance by the Buddha. As you may recall, the same passage has > been mentioned a number of times by different members lately, so it > is quite topical. > > My comments are directed to the meaning of the passage in general, > and are not meant to be a response to your statement in particular > (although it seems to me that our reading of the passage differs). > As I say, the passage has been the subject of comments from a number > of different members lately, and these have no doubt played a part in > my present interest in the matter. > > I'd be very happy to hear your views on this general area. Hoping to > hear back from you soon. > > Jon > > --- yu_zhonghao wrote: > Hi Jon, > > > > Let me respond in context. > > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott > > wrote: > > > Victor, and Rob Ep > > > > > > Victor, I'd like to come back to a post of yours that I answered > > in > > > part before. I've included Rob Ep above because the same issue > > has > > > been raised by him in recent posts. > > > > > > > > What exactly is the issue in discussion? 33089 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon May 17, 2004 11:23am Subject: Perseverance in Dhamma, Ch I, no 1 Perseverance in Dhamma, Chapter I, no 1. Respect to the Buddha The venerable Bhikkhu asked Acharn Sujin: ³Where can I find a statue of the Buddha in the Foundation building so that I can pay respect to the Buddha. I went around looking everywhere for a statue, but I could not find it. In every temple all over the world one can see Buddha statues, and people attach great importance to them.² Acharn Sujin answered: ²It may happen that people who attach importance to a Buddha statue are inclined to believe that the Buddha will protect them when they pay respect. They may be attached to ceremonies. But, the understanding of the teachings is what is most important in our life. The Buddha gave us his teachings so that we can develop understanding of all phenomena of our life and eradicate defilements completely. We actually pay respect to the Buddha at any time we understand the teachings. In the Foundation there is no a statue, but relics of the Buddha are being kept here. An image of the Buddha or his relics can remind us of his excellent qualities, of his wisdom, his purity and his compassion.² The venerable Bhikkhu asked whether one can be sure about the relic being a genuine relic of the Buddha. Acharn Sujin answered that this does not matter. We may wonder about it and speculate about it, but what really matters is the kusala citta that pays respect to the Buddha. We can pay respect with understanding of his teachings and this will condition great confidence in the Buddha, the Dhamma and the Sangha. The venerable Bhikkhu remarked that in this world there is only a very small group of people who value the benefit of developing right understanding of the Buddha¹s teachings. Acharn Sujin answered that people are inclined to follow tradition, but that it takes courage being a real buddhist. The Buddha showed the Path leading to the realization of the arising and falling away of conditioned realities. We need perseverance to continue developing this Path. The venerable Bhikkhu showed us a book with texts he used for the performance of ceremonies that were requested by people who visited his temple. He said that people are greatly attached to rituals and that they liked to hear recitations of the Pali texts, even though they did not understand the meaning of the texts. He recited for us the first sentence of the ³Måtikå², the Summary of the Dhammasangani, the first Book of the Abhidhamma: ³kusala dhamma, akusala dhamma, avyåkata dhamma². Our whole life is contained in these words. Avyåkata, indeterminate, are all dhammas not included in kusala dhamma or akusala dhamma. It comprises: vipåkacitta (citta that is result of kamma) and the accompanying cetasikas (mental factors), kiriyacitta (inoperative citta) and the accompanying cetasikas, rúpa (physical phenomena) and nibbåna. The simplicity of this text is very impressive, and it is so deep. When we are sick, all kinds of rúpas and vipåkacittas are arising and falling away and these are included in avyåkata dhamma. Hardness or heat may impinge on the bodysense and then painful feeling may arise. Then our reactions to what we experience are included in kusala dhamma or akusala dhamma. We are worried about the sickness of others, we have many problems in life regarding our work or our relationship with others. We are absorbed in concepts and on account of these, moments of happiness and misery alternate. When it is time to depart from this life all these stories will be forgotten. Where is "our important personality"? There are only dhammas just lasting for a moment and then gone. They are only kusala dhamma, akusala dhamma, avyåkata dhamma. This can comfort us in times of sickness and misery. As Acharn Sujin often says: ³Most important in life is understanding reality. Otherwise all phenomema of life are still ŒI¹, and the cycle of birth and death will continue.² ***** Nina. 33090 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon May 17, 2004 11:23am Subject: Perseverance in Dhamma Dear all, I shall post in small sections at a time my Dhamma Report of six chapters on the discussions held in Thailand, Jan./Febr this year. Later on I shall send this text to Zolag Web. Nina. 33091 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon May 17, 2004 11:23am Subject: Vis 78 and Tiika Vis 78 and Tiika Intro to Vis. XIV, 78. This section deals first with the rupas that are physical base and doorway in a sense-door process. A physical base, vatthu, is the place where a particular citta originates. Seeing originates at the eye-base, for example. The doorway is the means through which citta experiences an object. The eyesense is the doorway for citta that experiences visible object impinging on that doorway. Kamma produces the sense organs that are bases as well as doorways for the cittas concerned and also the heart-base. These rupas produced by kamma are conditions for citta, they condition it by way of dependence-condition (nissaya-paccaya). It may seem that we can see and hear at the same time, but the study of the Abhidhamma can help us to understand that seeing and hearing arise dependent each on a different base and experiencing a different object through the appropriate dooway. When we have more understanding of the conditions for seeing, hearing and the other cittas arising in a process, we shall understand the meaning of anatta. There is no self in the experiencing. We should not forget that the goal of our study is the understanding of the present moment. As to bodily intimation and speech intimation which are not concrete matter but an alteration in the elements, these are originated by citta. They are doorways of kamma. Kamma can be performed through body, speech and mind. When we stretch out our hand to give, there is kusala kamma through the body-door. When we speak falsehood there is akusala kamma through speech. We read in the Expositor (p.1220: Text Vis. 78. Here, however, what is called materiality of the heart is 'physical basis, not door' (see DhsA. 82f.); the two intimations are 'door, not physical basis'; sensitive matter is 'both physical basis and door'; the rest are 'neither physical basis nor door'. So it is of four kinds according to the physical basis tetrad. Tiika 78: English:(See my remarks interspersed and the note below. For Pali-English scroll down.) Consciousness and mental factors abide here, they occur here, thus, it is a base, materiality that has become a support (base) for the cittas that are connected with it. This is sixfold. N: The five sense-bases that are bases for the sense-cognitions and the heartbase that is base for all other cittas. Text: Here the materiality of the heartbase is only a base for mind-element and mind-consciousness element. N: Mind-element (mano-dhaatu): adverting-consciousness (first citta in a sense-door process) and the two types of receiving-consciousness, sampaticchana-citta, one being kusala vipaaka-citta and one akusala vipaaka-citta, arising after the sense-cognitions. Mind-consciousness-element (mano-vi~n~naa.na-dhaatu): all cittas, except the five sense-cognitions and the three kinds of cittas classified as mind-element. It includes cittas experiencing an object through six doors as well as door-freed cittas, cittas not arising in processes, namely, rebirth-consciousness, bhavanga-cittas, dying-consciousness. Text: It is not a doorway for those (cittas) that have another support such as in the case of the eye. N: The heart-base is not the mind-door. The mind-door is the last bhavanga-citta arising before the mind-door process begins. Text: In as far as the eye etc. is concerned, this is a doorway for the receiving-consciousness and so on in the process, but this is not so in the case of the heartbase. Therefore it is said: ³Here, however, what is called materiality of the heart is physical basis, not door² The two intimations are doorways, because they are the doors of kamma. N: Kamma can be performed by the doorways of body, speech and mind. Bodily intimation and speech intimation are the doorways of kusala kamma and akusala kamma. However, kamma through the body can also be performed without bodily intimation *. Text: They are not base because there is no citta arising in dependence on them. The materiality that are the sense organs are base for seeing-consciousness and so on, which are thus dependent on that base itself, and doorway for the receiving-consciousness and so on that are dependent on another base. N: A sense organ such as eyesense is base as well as doorway for seeing. The eyesense functions as doorway for all the cittas of the eye-door process, such as receiving-consciousness, investigating-consciousness and so on. The doorway is the means through which they experience visible object. However, eyesense it is not the physical base for them, they are dependent on the heart-base. Text: The remaining twentyone rupas on the contrary are neither doorway nor base. N: The five sense-bases, the heart-base and the two intimations are eight kinds. The remaining rupas among the twentyeight rupas are thus twentyone rupas. ***** * Note on kamma performed through the body: Translated from the Thai, Dhamma Issues: ***** Pali English text: Vis 78 Pali: ya.m panettha hadayaruupa.m naama, ta.m vatthu na dvaara.m. vi~n~nattidvaya.m dvaara.m na vatthu. pasaadaruupa.m vatthu ceva dvaara~nca. sesa.m neva vatthu nadvaaranti eva.m vatthaadicatukkavasena catubbidha.m. Tiika: Vasanti ettha cittacetasikaa pavattantiiti vatthu, cittata.msampayuttaana.m aadhaarabhuuta.m ruupa.m. Consciousness and mental factors abide here, they occur here, thus, it is a base, materiality that has become a support (base) for the cittas that are connected with it. Ta.m pana chabbidha.m. This is sixfold. Tattha hadayaruupa.m vatthu eva manodhaatumanovi~n~naa.nadhaatuuna.m nissayabhaavato. Here the materiality of the heartbase is only a base for mind-element and mind-consciousness element. Na dvaara.m a~n~nanissayaana.m cakkhaadi viya. It is not a doorway for those (cittas) that have another support such as in the case of the eye. Yathaa hi cakkhaadiini sampa.ticchanaadiina.m pavattiyaa dvaara.m honti, na eva.m hadayavatthu. In as far as the eye etc. is concerned, this is a doorway for the receiving-consciousness and so on in the process, but this is not so in the case of the heartbase. Tena vutta.m ³ya.m panettha hadayaruupa.m naama, ta.m vatthu, na dvaaran²ti. Therefore it is said: ³Here, however, what is called materiality of the heart is physical basis, not door² Vi~n~nattidvaya.m dvaara.m kammadvaarabhaavato. The two intimations are doorways, because they are the doors of kamma. Tannissitassa cittuppaadassa abhaavato na vatthu. They are not base because there is no citta arising in dependence on them. Pasaadaruupa.m vatthu ceva attasannissitassa cakkhuvi~n~naa.naadikassa, The materiality that are the sense organs are base for seeing-consciousness and so on, which are thus dependent on that base itself, dvaara~nca a~n~nanissitassa sampa.ticchanaadikassa. and doorway for the receiving-consciousness and so on that are dependent another base. Sesa.m ekaviisatividha.m ruupa.m vuttavipariyaayato neva vatthu na ca dvaara.m. The remaining twentyone rupas on the contrary are neither doorway nor base. ******* Nina. 33092 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon May 17, 2004 11:23am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Kilesa (defilements) Hi Victor, I like this. calmed, and joy arises; the defilements of his mind are abandoned..> The recollection of the Buddha is one of the four meditations for every occasion during the day. (the others are metta, foulness of the body, death). Yes we can often recollect the Buddha, such as when I visit my father and have sometimes a hard time. I think of the Buddha. Or when studying the teachings and sometimes there is a moment of beginning of awareness. It is thanks to the Buddha. It can come very naturally. Nina. op 17-05-2004 01:31 schreef yu_zhonghao op yu_zhonghao@y...: > Anguttara Nikaya III.70 > Muluposatha Sutta There is the case where the disciple of the noble ones recollects > the Tathagata, thus: 'Indeed, the Blessed One is worthy and rightly > self-awakened, consummate in knowledge & conduct, well-gone, an > expert with regard to the world, unexcelled as a trainer for those > people fit to be tamed, the Teacher of divine & human beings, > awakened, blessed.' As he is recollecting the Tathagata, his mind is > calmed, and joy arises; the defilements of his mind are abandoned... 33093 From: Larry Date: Mon May 17, 2004 11:50am Subject: Re: [dsg] A Wandering Mind Sarah: "Just a moment of awareness of this or any other reality is so very precious and really is like a very magical healing balm ." Hi Sarah, I've been thinking the same thing today. A moment of awareness of any kind of panic is sort of a protection against that panic, magical armor. As you say there is no need to figure things out, analyze, or even conceptually identify. The panic may continue to be unpleasant but in the context of that awareness it is obviously not me. Just a little flicker of awareness now and then really is magical. Larry 33094 From: Larry Date: Mon May 17, 2004 0:39pm Subject: Re: Vis 78 and Tiika Hi Nina, When kamma is performed through the body without intimation what is the door? Why isn't life faculty included? Can we say doors only accomodate one way traffic? The five senses passively opening in and the two intimations plus body (not body sensitivity) actively opening out? What delimits in and out? space? When I focus my eye on a particular thing is that kamma performed through the body? Are body parts (hands, feet etc.) produced by temperature rather than kamma? Larry ---------------------------- N: Note on kamma performed through the body: Translated from the Thai, Dhamma Issues: ***** 33095 From: Suravira Date: Mon May 17, 2004 1:44pm Subject: Re: The Practical View of Anatta & Technical Aspects of Stream Entry Hello Andrew, et al > [Andrew] ... But are you > saying that there is something *more than* the 5 khandhas in the > present moment? [Suravira] No, that assertion is not being proposed. > [Andrew] Seeing doubt for what it is can be conducive to the arising > of wisdom. But doubt itself is proximately caused by unwise > attention. [Suravira] In as much as doubt (in the efficacy of the dharma) and false views of individuality are resolved upon stream entry, doubt can motivate one to engage in the discipline of bhavana with the aim of directly realizing the dharma of anatta. In a manner of speaking one makes a strong determination to resolve their doubt and (spiritual) ignorance related to views of individuality. That strong determination aids in one's commitment to the discipline of bhavana. > You mention "practice" as a noun. Don't you think that, > in English, it carries heavy connotations of *someone* practising? [Suravira] Practice is more accurately understood to be a function. > I'd be interested to hear how you explain to seekers this idea of > action but no actor ie anatta. > [Suravira] I do not offer a teaching of "action but no actor." Not wishing to change the subject, but that idea, or slogan, is another catch phrase that does (in my view) a dis-service to disseminating the dharma of anatta. Moreover, that slogan frequently flies back at teachers of the dharma when teachings on karma are offered - in the worst cases it is used as an excuse for not assuming responsiblity for the choices one makes and for the consequences that arise from those choices. I see the catch phrases of "action but no actor", "no-self", "not self" etc, as tactical errors that have occured as the dharma of anatta has been distributed into contemporary western civilization. In my view, this dharma of anatta can be spoken to directly, and it is best to abandon such slogans since they add nothing constructive to the mix. Andrew, because of your earnest inquiries, what follows is an extract of one of my TV scripts - one that focuses on anatta (copyright is retained by the show's producer) - it is offered for your consideration: ... The Buddha negated false views of individuality, false views of the personal perception of khandhas. He did not negate individuality. He did not negate the existential postulate that a personal perception of life is experienced. He did, however, negate false views of individuality. These are two very important points to clarify when presenting to Americans Buddha's negation of false views of individuality. If your dhamma talk, given to Americans, negates soul, then the American will infer that you are negating mind as well, which they will conclude as meaning that you are negating their personal perception of their life experience – that you are negating self. So, we need to be mindful to guard our speech so that we do not present dhamma as negating individuality, that we do not present dhamma as negating the reality of the experience of the perception of life – the reality of the perception of khandhas. Now let's consider the first fetter from the context of Samadhi and from stream entry. To support this effort, a minimum amount of western psychology will be introduced. As an aside, sila can be viewed to be a conscious intention to restrain and purify our thoughts, feelings, words and actions in order to cultivate a personal psychological base for cultivating Samadhi. Normally, our awareness is fully absorbed within the personal stream of thoughts, feelings, sensations and memories. This propensity of awareness to be so absorbed is extremely strong and robust. This natural absorption of awareness is a necessity because we are social creatures. We each need to figure out how to survive and live. No exceptions to that rule are granted. So, this natural absorption of awareness within the stream of our personal khandhas is a Universal adaptation by all human beings – by all senscient beings, on this planet. Psychology has come to call this natural adaptation ego – ego with a big E. To ensure our survival, nature selected to create, cultivate and maintain ego without need of any conscious effort on our part. As a consequence, our personal ego isn't of the highest quality – nature did not need ego to attain more than its normal level. Ego only needs to be of sufficient quality to ensure our survival to reproductive age, and thereby ensure the continuation of the species. Our ego does not develop in a vacuum. Through the unconscious imitation of others around us, it collected the raw materials needed to fabricate its structure. When we encounter wholesome objects or events, we fabricate a representation of it and link to it our feeling about that object or event representation. When we encounter unwholesome objects or events, we do the exact same thing. In that we accomplished such actions without aware effort, they reside within the anusaya, where they remain until suitable causes present themselves, thereby stimulating the arising of corresponding thoughts, feelings and memories. Typically, they arise from anusaya into pariyutthàna (nasal n). It is within pariyutthana that our awareness is merged with and absorbed into the arising thoughts, feelings and memories. In a manner of speaking, awareness is thereby enslaved in that stream. When these thoughts, feelings and memories pass from pariyutthana to arise to vãtikkama, they motivate bodily and verbal actions. If what reaches vãtikkama is wholesome, then our bodily and verbal actions are wholesome. If what reaches vãtikkama is unwholesome, and if we are not mindful, then our bodily and verbal actions are unwholesome. The Buddha described these unwholesome thoughts, feelings and memories as hindrances and fetters. Please note that even though they may not be activated in a given moment; they persist within anusaya – well past the point in time of stream entry. This is a critically important fact to remember when investigating the jhànas. However, they can be atrophied by mindfulness and held at abeyance by Samadhi. So if we look at this process of ego fabrication generically and consider only one instance of either an object or event representation production, we can see that there is a generic triad that is the fundamental constituent of ego. There is a subject and there is an object. There is a subject-object duality. Inherent in this duality is relationship – the sticky part of the duality. A relation always arises whenever a subject-object pair arises. The primary characteristic of this relation and what makes it sticky is its feeling – its emotion – which is in aspect pleasant, unpleasant or neutral. Because of impermanence, ego structure is, fortunately, a dynamic, ever-adapting, mutually-interdependent, integrated, schema of triads – a collection of subject/object/feeling triads. Collectively, these triads constitute the conventional sense of self – of personal individuality. This collection provides us with a sense of boundary within space and through time; a boundary that dissipates at stream entry – but which, gratefully, subsequently reconstitutes, thanks to kamma, as Samadhi wanes. However, on the down side, this beautiful aspect of humanity, our awareness, can not reach its greatest level of development so long as it remains absorbed in our individuality – in our personal experience of thoughts, feelings, sensations and memories. To cultivate a higher development of awareness we take up the discipline of Samadhi. When we cultivate Samadhi, we consciously choose a suitable and wholesome mind-object, and place our awareness on it – we fabricate a wholesome, neutral and unfettered triad. We aspire to penetrate that mind-object – to absorb or merge our awareness with it. Samadhi practice is, in a very practical sense, a means of producing a very high quality, minimalist, ego structure. Let's call it a supra-ego – ego with a very tiny e. Because it is wholesome, this supra-ego structure is distilled of any hindrance or fetter. It is the absolute, bear minimum, pared to the bone, ego structure with a single triad. It is a vehicle suited for the supra-mundane highway. Now, when we try to cultivate awareness by taking up the discipline of Samadhi, why is it so incredibly hard to do the practice? Why is it so difficult to unfetter awareness from our personal stream of individuality, and place it on an object of our choosing? Why, after having placed our awareness on that object, is it so difficult to hold it on that object? The Buddha's explanation for these difficulties is contained within the teachings of the 5 hindrances and the 10 fetters. They are referred to as hindrances because they obscure and envelope awareness – they defile its luminous purity. On a personal level, they directly hamper our spiritual development and by so doing, impair our ability to verify if awareness is in reality luminous purity. To gain insight into this nature of awareness, this luminous purity, we must practice Samadhi and manifest jhàna. The hindrances and fetters are barriers to our personal manifestation of jhana. To manifest jhàna, we must dismantle these barriers. To do that, we must become skilled in certain tools, techniques and methods. If you prefer, you can think of hindrances and fetters as being like governors we place on an engine. With the governor in place, the full power of the engine can not be expressed. However, we can cultivate Samadhi and unfetter awareness. We can learn to place awareness where we want to place it. We can learn to hold it on that point – for as long as we desire. And, we can learn to take it off that point and re-position it anywhere at will. By holding our awareness on the supra-ego, the awareness penetrates it, is absorbed in it, and the duality of subject and object evaporates … temporarily. The art of merging awareness with the object of meditation is not mystical – nor unnatural … in any regard. Awareness is naturally merged and absorbed into mental-objects. The art is just mindfully utilizing this natural propensity of awareness to merge and absorb. However, in the art of Samadhi, because of the minimalist nature of the produced triad, when the merging occurs awareness is not enslaved or oppressed … as it is with Ego. In distinct difference to Ego, the Samadhi triad (supra-ego) is so minimalist that it is not capable of providing awareness with any semblance of bounded space. Therefore, when awareness penetrates and merges with the Samadhi triad awareness enters the stream as clear luminosity – with no semblance of bounded space and therefore, no semblance of a conventional sense of self. Poetically, this transition in states of awareness is expressed as `opening the wisdom eye.' Now, in most cases, when the wisdom eye opens, it blinks shut relatively quickly. The reason why this is so is that, for almost everyone, shortly after this transition in the state of awareness, fear and anxiety arise quite naturally. After all, perception habitually occurs within the boundary of the conventional sense of self. And, it is really quite alarming to experience awareness that is not bounded by space … that is not enslaved by the Ego structure. Let me be clear about this point. The wisdom eye opens temporarily and then shuts as the Ego structure re-consolidates. The special energy produced by the body to support this transition in states of awareness will be spent, and you will likely not have enough of that energy left to dive back into the dhamma stream – to open the wisdom eyelid. But you will have enough reserve to practice mindfulness of the hindrances and fetters that will inevitably arise … be present … and dissipate. And you will hold a valid view of individuality. And, you will be free of spiritual doubt regarding the clear, luminous, boundless nature of awareness. And, if you ever did believe that adherences to rules and rituals can bring purification of the defilements, you will abandon that fetter as well. By way of advice, after the initial experience of the wisdom eye blink, the struggle continues. So, be on the lookout for màna, fetter number 8 – spiritual pride. My hope is that we come to understand that, after all that hard work, only the tip of our big toe got wet in the dhamma stream. .... The balance of the TV script will be available at a later point in time. With metta, Suravira 33096 From: Date: Mon May 17, 2004 10:30am Subject: Re: [dsg] Do or not do something In a message dated 5/13/04 12:23:47 AM Pacific Daylight Time, sarahdhhk@y... writes: > Second, you ask what is unconditioned mind and self-determination. The > Buddha > does talk about conditioned mind and unconditioned mind. .... S: I think the only unconditioned dhamma is nibbana. All other dhammas are conditioned. Do you have anything else in mind? You mentioned that ‘one can make decisions out of unconditioned mind’. I’d be glad if you’d elaborate as this is something new to me. ============== Sarah and others (I would also be especially interested in comments from Howard and Steve as well as anyone else), I don't know how my statement above translates into Abhidhamma language. I suspect it doesn't. My Zen work with koans centered around breaking through conditioning and answering from clear mind. I became convinced that one can do this without reaching full enlightenment. Then, I switched to Thera and came across Buddhadasa Bhikkhu. BB was a Thai monk who, in my opinion, is the foremost Thera writer and thinker in the last century. BB taught that we might reach "partial" nibbana many times in a week. We don't stay there so it isn't nibbana or enlightenment. But, for that brief time, we get a taste of a life without suffering and without defilements. As we progress in our practice we have more and more of these moments. Then, eventually we might reach full enlightenment. Bhikkhu Buddhadasa makes distinctions in nibanna that might interest you. The first kind of nibanna he calls tadanga nibanna which is our natural state and might arise with help from favorable surroundings such as listening to Mozart or observing a sunset. It happens to us if we are open to it. The second kind he calls vikkhambhana nibanna which happens when we suppress defilements through our meditation. It is the same as tadanga nibanna except it is controlled through our practice. The third and highest kind of nibanna is samuccheda nibanna which happens when we completely uproot ignorance and fetters. This third form of nibanna unlike the other two is not dependent upon conditions. Once we /get there/, we never go back. BB sometimes broke loose of traditional interpretations of the suttas. But, his was always interpretations of what the Buddha taught not his own brand of Buddhism. I have looked at several references to nibbana and find that many of them can be interpreted in a way that accommodates this temporary nibbana. There is nothing in the suttas I could find that could not also only mean the traditional nibbana. jack Howard, I notice from my database that we traded emails on this subject in 1997. How time flies. 33097 From: Suravira Date: Mon May 17, 2004 3:42pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Self-views (was: Not entering the Stream in Mahayana) Hi Sarah, > Btw, do you have a copy of B.Bodhi's translation of the sutta and > commentaries? It's a wonderful text from the BPS. **Andrew, do you have > it? > [Suravira] No I do not have a sopy of B. Bodhi's translation and commentary. I will search for it. With metta, Suravira 33098 From: Suravira Date: Mon May 17, 2004 4:21pm Subject: Dana & Sila TV Script 1 Sarah, Thank you for your generous offer of submitting portions of my TV scripts on Dana & Sila to your Dhamma Study Group. I have selected a extract that follows after the program series' introduction. It lays out the general game plan for the program series. If you judge its content to be unsuitable for this study group then let me know. The producer of the TV series holds the copyright of the content that follows - it is not offered for general distribution to the public, instead it is offered to solicite constructive feedback from the members of this group. Please understand that the writing is a transcript of spoken words intended for a TV audience. Moreover, repetition of the English meaning of Pali words is required to aid the audience in building their vocabulary of Pali words. With Metta, Suravira ... Dharma-vinaya The Buddha called the teaching he founded Dharma-vinaya, "the doctrine and discipline." The popular term for this religion is Buddhism; however, Buddhists call it the Dharma. The teachings offered by the Buddha are a gradual teaching that has three pillars of practice: Dana, Sila and Bhavana. Dana is a Pali word that has many meanings. The meaning of Dana includes such ideas as generosity, charity and almsgiving. Dana: generosity, charity, almsgiving – is the most fundamental spiritual act a person or a community can engage in. As such, the practice of Dana is the cornerstone of all Buddhist practice and every Buddhist society. When the Buddha encountered a community for the first time, and the members of that community expressed a desire to be taught, he first transmitted to them the teachings on the discipline of Dana: generosity, charity and almsgiving. Dana: generosity, charity and almsgiving - enables us to co-create the fabric of a humane society through mutually interdependent, intimate, wholehearted acts of giving and receiving, based upon an appropriate level of respect for one another. The simple act of giving food, clothing, or money as an act of charity cultivates within one self an open heart, a gentle kindness, towards others. Both of these qualities (an open heart and gentle kindness), are integral to a spiritual path. The Buddha next gave teachings on Sila: virtue, morality and ethics. Sila is another Pali word that has many meanings. The meaning of Sila includes such ideas as virtue, morality and ethics. Sila depends upon Dana: generosity, charity and almsgiving - as its cornerstone. However, Sila goes further down the spiritual path. Sila: virtue, morality and ethics - cultivates harmony within ourselves and it cultivates harmony within this world in which we are immersed, and interdependent. Sila: virtue, morality and ethics - empowers us to strengthen our relationships, and to increase their flexibility, resiliency, and warmth through spontaneous wisdom, friendliness, and compassion. If we engage this discipline of Sila throughout all aspects of our life, both public as well as private, we will discover the greatest depth of well being we are capable of. In addition, we will have laid a solid foundation for the Buddhist discipline of Bhavana: meditation. After offering teaching on Dana and Sila, the Buddha gave teachings on Bhavana. Bhavana is a Pali word that refers to mental development; but is properly called meditation. We will cover the practice of meditation in a separate program series. In this program series, we will be exploring the spiritual practices of Dana: generosity, charity and almsgiving - and Sila: virtue, morality and ethics. In addition, we will come to recognize how these two spiritual practices are inter-dependent and how they reinforce each other. The approach to teaching the dharma used by the Buddha – first teaching Dana, then Sila and lastly Bhavana - is very different from how Buddhism spread throughout western civilization after World War II. When Buddhism entered western civilization, it first encountered the intelligentsia and the avant-garde who were interested in teachings on the discipline of Bhavana, meditation. Therefore, those were the teachings that were transmitted. However, since the 80's Buddhist teachers here in the West have begun to appreciate the need for offering teachings on Sila: virtue, ethics and morality - and to integrate these teachings into the lives of their members. In addition, to a lesser degree, the discipline of Dana: generosity, charity, almsgiving - is now being transmitted within some western Buddhist groups. While it is encouraging to see the spread of teachings on Dana and Sila, they still are not generally being transmitted in the order that the Buddha shared them. This is unfortunate, because there is a lot of wisdom reflected in the teaching sequence he used. In the Deer Park Sangha, here in Charlotte, North Carolina we follow the teaching sequence that the Buddha used, and so the TV programs sponsored by the Deer Park Sangha follow that sequence. Yet the approach we will follow in teaching Dana and Sila is not the traditional Asian approach, by that I mean we will not present just the sayings of the Buddha, or the teachings of other seminal Buddhist teachers. Certainly, these teachings of the Buddha will be presented, but we will also introduce ideas from science, psychology, western philosophy and from the teachings of Jesus of Nazareth. These additional teachings will serve as a bridge that takes us from our beliefs conditioned by this contemporary American culture towards the ancient eastern religion of Buddhism. Without this bridge, we cannot get there from here. Our western beliefs about generosity, charity, virtue, morality and ethics are the "here," they are the ground we stand on. However, I am not going to assume that you and I share the same beliefs about these topics. Since we are, in a manner of speaking, taking a journey of exploration together, I am going to spend the majority of the first three programs describing "here" – describing our point of departure - in detail. Clearly, generosity, charity, virtue, morality and ethics are an immensely complex terrain. To avoid any misunderstandings, we are not going to take the 10,000-foot view of the terrain. Instead, we are going to hug the tree line. Let me give you fair warning: the ground we stand on is going to be described in detail and in depth. Consequently, this will involve a significant amount of analysis. If you are not given to analyzing things, this will appear to be very scholarly, intellectual, and perhaps dry – I hope that the analysis actually peaks your interest and gets you thinking about these topics in new ways. To describe this ground, I will be using western philosophy, western psychology and the teachings of Jesus of Nazareth. The key to this approach is to make it clear when a point being made is from science, psychology, western philosophy, or from the teachings of Jesus and when an aspect of Buddhist doctrine is being presented - I'll do my best to point out these demarcations. If it were possible to avoid this preliminary task, I would. While there is certainly something to be said for keeping things simple, there is also the real risk of dumbing things down so that, in effect, you end up treating the audience as if they were simpletons. This program series is for adults - it is intended for adults who have a serious interest in living a moral and ethical life that accords with the Buddha dharma. I prefer to put my trust in the basic intelligence of the American public. After studying and practicing the Buddha dharma for close to forty years now, I have seen many Buddhist teachers skip this critically important preliminary task. Therefore, significant misunderstandings needlessly proliferate among western students and practitioners of Buddhism. The coverage of the topics in the first three programs is intended to address the most common misunderstandings that western students encounter. At minimum, the coverage will form a basis for discussions aimed at resolving these misunderstandings. I am sure that you have all heard the phrase "Everyone who holds the pen adds their own perspective". You see, regardless of the topic, or the person, everyone has their own perspective of that topic, and that perspective is shaped by their personal experiences, by their family traditions and by the greater society they are a part of. This is true, as well, of me in regards to this program series. This presentation of Buddhist virtue, morality and ethics includes Theravada, Mahayana Zen and Vajrayana teachings. Since I have elected not to become ordained in a particular lineage, I am not obligated to promote one particular tradition. Instead, I am free to create a hybrid of these traditions in a manner I hope will appeal to a broad segment of the American public and by so doing, share the dharma with a wider audience. ... This ends the first program extract. Thank you for your considered response to this transcript. With metta, Suravira 33099 From: Philip Date: Mon May 17, 2004 4:34pm Subject: Deeds of Merit, Chapter One (Generosity) Hello all I am trying a new study method. I'm reading a book "Deeds of Merit" by Acharn Sujin that Nina recommended and instead of printing it out and highlighting it as I usually do, I thought I would share some passages from it with you. The passages I selected are based entirely on my own accumulations of course. I've added some of my own comments, and a question, which is helpful for me. I recommend skipping my comments unless you have a lot of time on your hands! If I'm not mistaken, the book is not available in print yet but can be found online. The first chapter will certainly be of interest to the group members who mentionned that they are doing research on dana. Chapter 1 Generosity S. : Each time we give something away we should know whether, as a consequence, few kusala cittas and many akusala cittas arise, or whether there are more kusala cittas arising than akusala cittas [1. If there are more akusala cittas arising than kusala cittas while we give something away, I think that it would be better to give something else which can be a condition for the arising of more kusala cittas than akusala cittas. People who do not have any understanding of cause and result in life may make a great effort to give, or, on the contrary, they may have no inclination to give at all. If they are ignorant of cause and result and if they have no understanding of the kusala cittas or akusala cittas which arise after the giving, they will either be overdoing generosity or, on the other hand, be negligent. In both cases there will be sorrow afterwards. (ph: As for akusala and kusala related to giving, I have not thought eneough about it. I am not one who gives a lot in the material sense. I talk about giving my full presence when teaching. That is a significant gift I believe- and one which most people do not give when listening to others I sense. But I want to continue to think more about the material aspect of dana. For example, I wanted to give a gift to the Dhamma Foundation because I am reading so many of Nina?fs books for free. And I could, but it would involve a but of a tussle with the Finance Minister who lives in my house. :) So I am just having that intention for now. In a small way the fact that I still have that intention is a sign that I am thinking about dana.) S. : Someone is lax (in generosity) if he has misgivings about giving anything at all, and then he has very little kusala by way of generosity. Or, if he is able to give he only gives as little as possible and that very seldom. Such a person does not understand that at each moment of generosity there is elimination of avarice and of clinging to possessions, which are defilements accumulated in the citta. (ph: There is a Buddhist monk who stands in front of a station I pass by twice a week, accepting alms. Despite my interest in Buddhism, I have never thought of giving him something, because I am aware of how wealthy temple families are in Japan and I don?ft know if he is legitimate. That is stinginess. Also I am embarrassed and shy about it. That is being lax. We?fll see if one morning giving arises. I would feel better about giving him food but I think in Japan he would take that as an insult. Part of me wants to see what would happen if I gave him an onigiri rice ball. But I know that that curiosity is unwholesome so I let go of it. Also, I am lax about giving souvenirs from my trip to students and co- workers the way that is expected in Japan. I have always thought it felt obligatory, and resisted, but that shows laxness on my part and laziness because it is troublesome. The Japanese tradition of ?gomiyage?h- these souvenirs - must have Buddhist roots. ) S. : The word kusala refers to the nature of the citta which is good and beautiful, and such citta brings a pleasant result, thus, it causes us to receive what is pleasant. When someones citta is wholesome there are no attachment, anger, ignorance or jealousy, no pride, conceit or other defilements arising at that moment. Even if someone has no things he can give away there can be kusala citta. There are many other kinds of kusala besides the giving away of things. (ph: Thich Nhat Hahn wrote about this and said that we can give our presence our stability our freedom (meaning ways of finding joy free from affliction) our freshness, our peace, and space. These concepts are very conceptual and airy but they helped me a lot to be a better teacher. I need to think more about the way I give them or fail to give them to Naomi my wife. I tend to think more about my students than I do Naomi. That is neither good not bad but something to think about. What will I give her this morning when she wakes up? Will I leave my attachment to this dhamma activity to go and spend more time with her? Will I give her my full presence or will part of my mind be occupied by what I was writing here? (Did I get it right? Did I sound wise and insightful?) S. : There are not all the time kusala cittas with generosity, but even at the moments we are not actually giving away things we can continue to develop generosity, which is conditioned by the acts of generosity we have performed. We can transfer our kusala to others by letting them know about our good deeds so that they, in their turn, can have kusala cittas with appreciation of our good deeds. They rejoice in the kusala we have performed. When we make known our kusala to others, we perform a deed of generosity which is called transference of merit, in Paali: pattidaana. Thus, if one has performed deeds of generosity there is an opportunity to have kusala cittas arising once again by transference of merit, by helping others to have kusala cittas with appreciation of ones good deeds. (ph:?gWe can transfer out kusala to others by letting them know about our good deeds so that they in their turn can have kusala cittas with appreciation of our good deeds?h Well this is certainly interesting. It goes against the usual thinking that our good deeds should be done without calling attention to them. Of course it should be done subtly. It brings about mudita. Obviously it would be easy to misinterpret the above. ) S. : The person who did not perform wholesome deeds himself, but who rejoices in the wholesome deeds of someone else, has kusala cittas, cittas without attachment, anger, jealousy or other defilements. The appreciation of someone elses kusala is another way of kusala. Its arising is conditioned by the kusala of someone else. This way of kusala is called in Paali: pattanumodana [5. At such a moment there is kusala citta with anumodana, appreciation of someone elses kusala. Therefore, even if someone cannot perform a wholesome deed himself he can still have kusala citta. When he has cittas without jealousy and when he rejoices in someone elses wholesome deed, his cittas are kusala cittas without necessarily giving away things himself to someone else. (ph: I will give this a shot now and tell you that I decided to share passages of this book with you as a way of performing dana. I knew that Nina is fond of this book because she has mentioned it several times so as a way of thanking her for her books I decided to share this one. I think this in some small way is a performance of dana - as well as a way of deepening my understanding of wholesome deeds, of course. So, are you feeling kusala in appreciation of any kusala I have from sharing this book with you? :) S: Besides the above mentioned ways of kusala there is still another way. When we have performed a deed of generosity there can again be kusala cittas afterwards. We can reflect on the daana or generous deed we have performed with cittas which are calm and pure. Thus, when someone has accumulated the inclination and habit to perform deeds of generosity, and he reflects time and again on his deeds, the cittas will be more and more peaceful, pure and steadfast in kusala. (ph: This is very interesting. Again it seems to go against my conventional thinking that it could create attachment to one?fs deeds as self, and a self-pleased feeling, with the emphasis on self. Wouldn?ft letting go of the good deed with faith in the Buddha?fs teaching that wholesome deeds lead to more of the same be the way to go?) Those are just a few passages from Chapter One. Metta, Phil 33100 From: Date: Mon May 17, 2004 4:53pm Subject: Nibbana as Unconditioned and Permanent [Re: [dsg] Do or not do something] Hi, Jack, and Sarah and all - In a message dated 5/17/2004 5:30:52 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Jackhat1 writes: > The third and highest kind of nibanna is samuccheda > nibanna which happens when we completely uproot ignorance and fetters. This third > form of nibanna unlike the other two is not dependent upon > conditions. Once we > /get there/, we never go back. ========================== In this regard, I would be very interested in hearing peoples' ideas on exactly what it means to say that nibbana (in the traditional sense) is unconditioned and non-arising. I think there may be several ways of understanding this, and perhaps more than one of them are valid. I take nibbana to be the complete absence of confusion/ignorance, craving, and aversion, and hence of dukkha. Given that as the meaning, what does it mean for it to be unconditioned and non-arising? Is it unconditioned in the sense that from the perspective of the absence of ignorance, there simply are no separate, self-existent conditions, but instead a vast net of interdependencies wherein nothing that is self-existent ever arises or ceases? Or is it unconditioned (and non-arising and nonceasing) in the sense that, in principle, the ultimate emptiness of nibbana is a permanent reality in the same way that a canvas is, in and of itself, empty of paint even when covered by paint, and the removal of that paint doesn't *produce* an empty canvas, but *reveals* it? (Here, the "paint" is the three poisons.) I'd be particularly interested in hearing what the commentaries have to say with regard to the unconditionedness and permanence of nibbana. With metta, Howard 33101 From: Date: Mon May 17, 2004 1:55pm Subject: Re: Nibbana as Unconditioned and Permanent [Re: [dsg] Do or not do something] Hi Howard In a message dated 5/17/2004 4:57:18 PM Pacific Standard Time, upasaka@a... writes: I take nibbana to be the complete absence of confusion/ignorance, craving, and aversion, and hence of dukkha. Given that as the meaning, what does it mean for it to be unconditioned and non-arising? Yes but there are two types of Nibbana, that "with residue" and that "without residue." The former kind can still experience dukkha, the later kind cannot. Although I suppose its the "residue" aspect that is still subject to dukkha, not the Nibbana part. In both cases, as you say, ignorance and its co-arising factors: craving, aversion, (and any sense-of-self) are eradicated. Is it unconditioned in the sense that from the perspective of the absence of ignorance, there simply are no separate, self-existent conditions, but instead a vast net of interdependencies wherein nothing that is self-existent ever arises or ceases? If I'm understanding your question properly, I would say that this "vision" is the insight that eventually leads to Nibbana but is not Nibbana "itself." Or is it unconditioned (and non-arising and nonceasing) in the sense that, in principle, the ultimate emptiness of nibbana is a permanent reality in the same way that a canvas is, in and of itself, empty of paint even when covered by paint, and the removal of that paint doesn't *produce* an empty canvas, but *reveals* it? (Here, the "paint" is the three poisons.) I'd be particularly interested in hearing what the commentaries have to say with regard to the unconditionedness and permanence of nibbana. I like your paint and canvas analogy. (Whether or not its accurate.) Seems to me the questions are... is there a permanent empty state that is Nibbana? Or, is Nibbana the abscence states? Regarding the later case, I think its clear that Nibbana is the abscence of dukkha related states. Especially since it means extinction or extinguish. And although the Buddha did call it -- 'the highest happinesss,' there is not enough evidence in the suttas to indicate to me it is a "actual state." Even if it is an "actual state," I wonder if entertaining any theoretical framework of it as such is going to be a hindrance to actually achieving it. Below is a listing from the Patisambhidamagga of comparative terms. This list is a little more extensive than the ones found in the Suttas. The parenthesized explainations, next to a few terms, are my own and can be disregarded as such. However, one definition of unconditioned here is "not empty" at that would contradict the Suttas unless it is looked at such as I have done below. There is also the term "core" below for unconditioned which again if taken literally, points to a "canvas" underlying events. My sense is the Buddha either didn't want us to know about a "canvas" as it may be harmful to making progress, or that there is no canvas. (I lean toward the latter.) Otherwise, there would be no reason to have it an enigma. Then again I may have mis-understood your questions. Either way, I don't think we will ever know until we are there (or not there). Conditions: Unconditioned: a disease health a boil no boil a dart no dart a calamity no calamity an affliction no affliction alien independent of others disintegrating not disintegrating a plague no plague a disaster no disaster a terror non-terror a menace no menace fickle un-fickle perishable un-perishable un-enduring enduring no protection protection no shelter shelter no refuge refuge empty (of satisfaction) not empty (of satisfaction) vain not vain void the ultimate voidness not self as the ultimate meaning of not self a danger without danger subject to change not subject to change having no core (of deliverance) the core (of deliverance) the root of calamity not the root of calamity murderous not murderous to be annihilated not to be annihilated subject to cankers free from cankers formed unformed materialistic un-materialistic connected with the state of birth the unborn connected with the state of aging the un-aging connected with the state of ailment the un-ailing connected with the state of death the deathless connected with the state of sorrow without sorrow connected with the state of lamentation without lamentation connected with the state of despair without despair (The Path of Discrimination, (Patisambhidamagga), pg. 402 – 403, Treatise on Insight) With metta, Howard Take care. TG 33102 From: bodhi2500 Date: Mon May 17, 2004 5:59pm Subject: (was:Do or not do something) Hi Jack, All, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jackhat1@a... wrote: > Bhikkhu Buddhadasa makes distinctions in nibanna that might interest you. The > first kind of nibanna he calls tadanga nibanna which is our natural state and > might arise with help from favorable surroundings such as listening to Mozart > or observing a sunset. It happens to us if we are open to it. " When one has understood the impermanence of form, of feeling, of perception, of volitional formations, of consciousness, its change, fading away, and cessation, and when one sees as it really is (yathaabhuuta.m) with correct wisdom (sammappa~n~na) thus: `In the past and also now all consciousness is impermanent, suffering, and subject to change,' then sorrow, lamentation, pain, displeasure, and dispair are abandoned. With their abandonment, one does not become agitated. Being unagitated, one dwells happily. A bhikkhu who dwells happily is said to be `quenched in that respect' (tadaganibbuto). (Samuttanikaya, Khandhavagga, 43, With yourselves as an Island.) Bhikkhu Bodhis notes on the occurrence of tadaganibbuto in the above Sutta are: Tadanganibbuto ti vuccati. Though nibbuto is the past participle generally used to describe one who has attained Nibbana, the prefix `tadanga-` qualifies that sense, suggesting he has not actually attained Nibbana but has only approximated its attainment. One might have rendered this expression "one who has attained Nibbana in that respect,"i.e., only in respect of a particular freedom. Spk (Commentary): He is "quenched in that respect" because of the quenching of the defilements with respect to (or: through the factor of) insight. In this sutta it is just insight (vipassana va) that is discussed. My understanding on this would be that "Tadanganibbuto" is a temporary quenching (nibbuto) of the defilements at a moment of insight/vipassana/satipatthana. And this could possibly happen many times a week or while listening to Mozart or watching a sunset as Buddhadasa Bhikhhu says. It seems `Nibbuto' is being used in the sense of quenched, and is not referring to the unconditioned Nibbana dhatu. I'm not sure how Buddhadasa Bhikhhus "natural state of mind" fits in with this though. Steve. P.S. Sarah , I'm going to drop the Jhana and discernment of kusala/akusala thread for now. Your last post on the subject gave me some things to think about. Thanks for the replies. 33103 From: Date: Mon May 17, 2004 6:00pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Perseverance in Dhamma, Ch I, no 1 AS: "Most important in life is understanding reality. Otherwise all phenomema of life are still 'I', and the cycle of birth and death will continue." Hi Nina, I like this. Another way to say the same thing with different emphasis is the most important is nibbana. Larry 33104 From: Date: Mon May 17, 2004 7:28pm Subject: Re: Nibbana as Unconditioned and Permanent [Re: [dsg] Do or not do something] Hi Howard, This is a classic question. Is nibbana a mere absence or a thing in itself? If a thing in itself, is it here already only obscured? At this point I'm favoring a thing in itself here already. ("Thing" is pretty crude but probably any term would be crude.) My reasoning is that in abhidhamma and in a few hints in sutta, nibbana is a reality with a characteristic (peace). I don't see how an absence could be considered a reality; it seems like a concept. There are no elephants in my room but can I be conscious of that? The reason I say here already is because where else would it be? Also nibbana seems to be distinctly different from the khandhas. The Buddha could have said nibbana is the good khandhas or the neutral khandhas, but he didn't. Of course the Buddha didn't say much about nibbana anyway. Also this here/now reality puts me in the mahayana crowd that believes in Buddha Nature (tathagatagarba). It seems to me they have gone way too far with all sorts of imaginings; so that makes me a little doubtful of my own view. Larry 33105 From: Date: Mon May 17, 2004 3:37pm Subject: Re: Nibbana as Unconditioned and Permanent [Re: [dsg] Do or not do something] Hi, TG - In a message dated 5/17/04 8:56:52 PM Eastern Daylight Time, TGrand458@a... writes: > Hi Howard > > In a message dated 5/17/2004 4:57:18 PM Pacific Standard Time, > upasaka@a... writes: > I take nibbana to be the complete absence of confusion/ignorance, craving, > and aversion, and hence of dukkha. Given that as the meaning, what does it > mean > for it to be unconditioned and non-arising? > Yes but there are two types of Nibbana, that "with residue" and that > "without > residue." The former kind can still experience dukkha, the later kind > cannot. Although I suppose its the "residue" aspect that is still subject > to > dukkha, not the Nibbana part. In both cases, as you say, ignorance and its > co-arising factors: craving, aversion, (and any sense-of-self) are > eradicated. > ------------------------------------------ Howard: I believe that there is more than one way to understand "nibbana with residue", but in any of those ways I do not understand dukkha as still an element of experience. I do not belive that a living arahant experiences dukkha in the sense of suffering. An arahant is fully and always equanimous. ------------------------------------------ > > Is it unconditioned in the sense that from the perspective of the absence > of ignorance, there simply are no separate, self-existent conditions, but > instead a vast net of interdependencies wherein nothing that is > self-existent > ever arises or ceases? > If I'm understanding your question properly, I would say that this "vision" > is the insight that eventually leads to Nibbana but is not Nibbana "itself." > ------------------------------------------ Howard: I agree that it is not nibbana itself. Nibbana itself is the absence of the three poisons. I believe that this vision is a consequence of the realization of nibbana, most specifically the realization of amoha. ------------------------------------------ > > Or is it unconditioned (and non-arising and nonceasing) in the sense that, > in > principle, the ultimate emptiness of nibbana is a permanent reality in the > same way that a canvas is, in and of itself, empty of paint even when > covered by > paint, and the removal of that paint doesn't *produce* an empty canvas, but > *reveals* it? (Here, the "paint" is the three poisons.) > I'd be particularly interested in hearing what the commentaries have to > say with regard to the unconditionedness and permanence of nibbana. > > I like your paint and canvas analogy. (Whether or not its accurate.) > > Seems to me the questions are... is there a permanent empty state that is > Nibbana? Or, is Nibbana the abscence states? Regarding the later case, I > think > its clear that Nibbana is the abscence of dukkha related states. Especially > > since it means extinction or extinguish. And although the Buddha did call > it > -- 'the highest happinesss,' there is not enough evidence in the suttas to > indicate to me it is a "actual state." Even if it is an "actual state," I > wonder > if entertaining any theoretical framework of it as such is going to be a > hindrance to actually achieving it. > -------------------------------------- Howard: I suspect that will neither help nor hurt. The eightfold path, and its cultivation, are what count, it seems to me. ------------------------------------- > > Below is a listing from the Patisambhidamagga of comparative terms. This > list is a little more extensive than the ones found in the Suttas. The > parenthesized explainations, next to a few terms, are my own and can be > disregarded as > such. However, one definition of unconditioned here is "not empty" at that > would contradict the Suttas unless it is looked at such as I have done > below. > There is also the term "core" below for unconditioned which again if taken > literally, points to a "canvas" underlying events. > ------------------------------------------- Howard: I didn't mean my canvas metaphor to suggest an underlying reality in a substantialist sense. I simply meant to indicate the defiling poisons as being adventitious and removable, so that "the mind" is not inherently defiled. If it were inherently defiled, like a canvas *composed* of paint, then nibbana would not only not be a permanent fact, but would not even be achievable. --------------------------------------------- > > My sense is the Buddha either didn't want us to know about a "canvas" as it > may be harmful to making progress, or that there is no canvas. (I lean > toward > the latter.) Otherwise, there would be no reason to have it an enigma. > Then > again I may have mis-understood your questions. Either way, I don't think > we > will ever know until we are there (or not there). > > Conditions: > Unconditioned: > a disease > health > a boil > no boil > a dart > no dart > a calamity > no calamity > an affliction > no affliction > alien > independent of others > disintegrating > not disintegrating > a plague > no plague > a disaster > no disaster > a terror > non-terror > a menace > no menace > fickle > un-fickle > perishable > un-perishable > un-enduring > enduring > no protection > protection > no shelter > shelter > no refuge > refuge > empty (of satisfaction) > not empty (of satisfaction) > vain > not vain > void > the ultimate voidness > not self > as the ultimate meaning of not self > a danger > without danger > subject to change > not subject to change > having no core (of deliverance) the > core (of deliverance) > the root of calamity > not the root of calamity > murderous > not murderous > to be annihilated > not to be annihilated > subject to cankers > free from cankers > formed > unformed > materialistic > un-materialistic > connected with the state of birth the > unborn > connected with the state of aging the > un-aging > connected with the state of ailment the > un-ailing > connected with the state of death the > deathless > connected with the state of sorrow without > sorrow > connected with the state of lamentation without > lamentation > connected with the state of despair without > despair > (The Path of Discrimination, (Patisambhidamagga), pg. 402 – 403, Treatise on > > Insight) > > With metta, > Howard > Take care. TG > ========================= Great to "talk" with you, TG. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 33106 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon May 17, 2004 9:12pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Htoo: Hetu Paccaya Initiation ( 02 ) Dear Htoo, I join Sarah, I also found this way of presenting much more helpful, and easier for the reader. Nina. op 17-05-2004 10:31 schreef Sarah op sarahdhhk@y...: > I found your two Hetu Paccaya Initiation’ extracts 1 and 2 with your > extra explanations to be clear and helpful. The format and length were > just right and they were easier to digest’. Please keep up the > Initiations for us average folk here;-). 33107 From: Date: Mon May 17, 2004 5:46pm Subject: Re: Nibbana as Unconditioned and Permanent [Re: [dsg] Do or not do something] Hi, Larry - In a message dated 5/17/04 10:51:45 PM Eastern Daylight Time, LBIDD@w... writes: > Hi Howard, > > This is a classic question. Is nibbana a mere absence or a thing in > itself? If a thing in itself, is it here already only obscured? > > At this point I'm favoring a thing in itself here already. ("Thing" is > pretty crude but probably any term would be crude.) My reasoning is that > in abhidhamma and in a few hints in sutta, nibbana is a reality with a > characteristic (peace). > ----------------------------------------------- Howard: I agree completely that Abhidhamma presents nibbana as a paramattha dhamma. The Sutta Pitaka, when it speaks of unmanifestive consciousness, perhaps is also suggestive of that, though largely nibbana in the suttas is presented as an absence - the ultimate emptiness, in fact. Now, I think that interpreting unmanifestive consciousness as nibbana is a mistake. Unmanifestive consciousness, as I see it, is the way experience is when freed of the three poisons. It is experience freed of reification, of subject-making, of object-making, of craving, aversion, and clinging. It is experience in which awareness of interdependent origination is immediate (i.e., unmediated). That mode of experience is not nibbana, it is the way experience is when nibbana has been realized. ----------------------------------------- I don't see how an absence could be considered a> > reality; it seems like a concept. There are no elephants in my room but > can I be conscious of that? ---------------------------------------- Howard: If there *had* been elephants in your room, and then - poof - they disappeared, you would then indeed be aware of their absence. Their absence would have been *realized*. But, in a sense, the room sans elephants - that is the room per se - existed even before the elephants disappeared. You just didn't notice it then. The room populated with elephants was like the canvas covered with paint. In any case, I think it is not so certain that an absence could not be a reality. What is wisdom? Is it not the absence of confusion? Or, if you don't like that, what is confusion? Is it not the absence of wisdom? Are not confusion and wisdom both realities? I don't think we should be overly certain about what is real and what is not. ------------------------------------------------ The reason I say here already is because> > where else would it be? Also nibbana seems to be distinctly different > from the khandhas. The Buddha could have said nibbana is the good > khandhas or the neutral khandhas, but he didn't. > ------------------------------------------------- Howard: The absence of defilements is not a khandha. So no problem there. ------------------------------------------------ > > Of course the Buddha didn't say much about nibbana anyway. Also this > here/now reality puts me in the mahayana crowd that believes in Buddha > Nature (tathagatagarba). It seems to me they have gone way too far with > all sorts of imaginings; so that makes me a little doubtful of my own > view. > > Larry > ====================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 33108 From: Sarah Date: Mon May 17, 2004 11:53pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Deeds of Merit, Chapter One (Generosity) Hi Phil, --- Philip wrote: > > (ph: I will give this a shot now and tell you that I decided to > share passages of this book with you as a way of performing dana. I > knew that Nina is fond of this book because she has mentioned it > several times so as a way of thanking her for her books I decided to > share this one. I think this in some small way is a performance of > dana - as well as a way of deepening my understanding of wholesome > deeds, of course. > So, are you feeling kusala in appreciation of any kusala I have > from sharing this book with you? :) ... S: I'm definitely appreciating this dana and I'm glad you included this comment. Anumodanaa! (that means rejoicing or appreciating your dana). It's a very nice way to show your thanks to Nina too and I really enjoy all your reflections and commentary ;-). I'll look forward to more. Maybe you can slowly go through the whole piece in this way and then any others you find of interest. Metta, Sarah ===== 33109 From: kenhowardau Date: Mon May 17, 2004 11:56pm Subject: Formal Sitting or Natural Arising? (was: Re: Video Games?) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert Epstein" wrote: > > i don't know what your understanding of meditation is, or if you have > ever practiced it yourself, but it seems inaccurate to me. Buddhist > meditation is Buddhist meditation because it is founded in Buddhism. > It is not against the principles of Buddhism, it is derived from them > and is the expression of them. Buddhist meditation does not try to > elevate one's state or replace it with another. Like all things in > Buddhism it looks at them directly in the moment to discern their reality. > Hi Rob Ep, This is the way I look at it: (Sorry if it's a bit one-eyed.) ;-) Imagine that a Buddhist teacher was able to place a number of mental and physical phenomena in front of you and tell you, "That is you!" It is logically impossible of course but, even so, imagine your reaction; "Is that all there is? This can't be right!" That is what the Buddha was able to do for people who were ready to know the truth. Even now, we can learn the same lesson to the extent alowed by our accumulated wisdom. We can read suttas in which the Buddha describes the all: he says there are a couple of rupas (eye-base and eye object) a slightly larger number of namas (eye consciousness and its associated mental factors including contact and feeling) and that is all. The Abhidhamma is there for those of us who want to know as much as possible about those, and any other namas and rupas that may arise (e.g., those that arise in a moment of hearing or in a moment of sleeping). May I respectfully suggest that formal practice is there for those of us who do not want to hear about the all? It is a later development of populist Buddhism that appeals to our sense of self. It offers the ideal of a `selfless self' – a self-sacrificing hero, stoically and magnificently on the path to enlightenment. Whether we like it or not, there is no such hero. In the conditioned world, there are only fleeting, unworthy, impersonal, mental and physical phenomena. They arise, perform their functions (which include conditioning their successors) and then they cease. In the unconditioned world, there is only Nibbana. If we are not ready to hear the truth about the all, then we are free to ignore it. We are even free, regrettably, to insist that the Buddha taught something else. However, for the time being at least, the evidence is still there in the Pali Canon and its ancient commentaries. Kind regards, Ken H 33110 From: buddhatrue Date: Tue May 18, 2004 0:19am Subject: Quiet James Dear Friends, In case anyone is wondering, I haven't fallen off the face of the planet ;-)) Not yet, anyway. ;-). I haven't been posting lately because, frankly, I don't have anything else to say. I have covered just about all of the significant areas of Buddhism I wanted to cover, have made my positions known and clear, and feel that any more posting would be overkill. But please understand, I have not lost my enthusiasm for the dhamma and I spend most of my free time studying and meditating. Also, I have not lost my interest, concerns, and connection with my dhamma friends in this group. I wish you all health, prosperity, and happiness. So, James is quiet but James is not gone. ;-) Metta, James 33111 From: Sarah Date: Tue May 18, 2004 1:11am Subject: Re: [dsg] re: Global chaos or a cup of tea Hi Phil (Rob Ep & Kom), --- Philip wrote: > > Ph: The confusing thing for me - but not in a troubling way - is that > even within the Theravada community there seems to be a view that the > mind can be directed in a wholesome direction. ..... S: I liked your earlier comment with regard to your 20minute walk: “Now it is probably true that this practice arose in a conditioned way. I see that. But whether it is conditioned or not there is directing of the mind involved. And when that directing happens it is a remnant of self that thinks it is doing it....”. Your comments made good sense to me, Phil. Whether we call it a Big Self or a Little Self, a refined Self or a Non-Self, the illusion that there can be and is any dhamma apart from the conditioned cittas, cetasikas or rupas arising and falling away at this moment is hindering the development of insight. ..... Ph> The final SELF suggests a mistaken belief in something like an > Atman, I guess, but I’m interested in the idea that before self is > fully understood to be a fiction, and is released, it can become a > more refined fiction, a more wholesome fiction. .... S: Never a ‘wholesome fiction’ when it is based on sakkaya ditthi (self-view). ..... > As Sarah said this belief could lead to make it harder to finally > let the fiction of self go, but I think that underestimates the power > of the Buddha’s teaching.. Constant exposure to the Buddha’s > teaching and good Dhamma friends would lead one eventually to waking > up from the fiction, ..... S: I’d like to pick up on a point that I think Rob Ep was making too. We cannot assume that ‘constant exposure....’ will lead to eventual waking up unless it is accompanied by the development of wisdom. There can be the wrong handling of the snake and one can miss the point whilst reading the suttas, taking the people and things as being realities rather than conventional truths and one can memorise all the charts and details in the Abhidhamma, becoming quite insane in the process. From the Introductory discourse in the Atthasaalinii (transl as The Expositor, PTS) referred to briefly the other day and also to be found in MN, Alagadduupamaa Sutta: “ ‘Just as, bhikkhus, a person desirous of catching a snake goes out in search of one. He sees a big snake and catches it either by the body or the tail. And the snake turning back bites him on the hand, the arm, or any other part of the body big or small. On that account he dies or suffers pain approaching death. And why? Because, bhikkhus, of his bad catching of the snake. In the same way, bhikkhus, in the religion some good-for-nothing persons improperly study the doctrine in its various branches. Having studied the doctrine they do not intelligently consider the meaning of the text. And the meaning not being considered with understanding, those acquired doctrines do not lend themselves to close insight. Those people study the doctrine for the purpose of annoying others or of freeing themselves from the criticism or scoffing of others. For whatever Good right-minded people study the doctrine, that Good these good-for-nothing people do not experience; and the doctrines being badly acquired are conducive to their disadvantage and misery for a long time. Wherefore? Because, bhikkhus, of their being badly acquired.’ “ It continues to say how the reverse is true when the doctrines are well acquired. ..... >but there could be benefits in making the > fiction more wholesome before closing the book on it. >Possibly. It > could also be that as a person who has an interest in writing > stories, the fiction of self is accumulated in a way for me in a way > that makes it so attractive that I have to finish the story in a good > way before closing the book.. .... S: The sooner the fiction is seen for what it is -- however attractive and alluring -- and discarded, the better. We can also begin to see that the value in hearing the Buddha’s teachings is to understand realities and to discard wrong views, rather than to just create conditions whereby there is less akusala in a day. For example, rebirth in the arupabrahma plane results from the development of the highest jhana states. However, the latent tendency of wrong view is still there for one who hasn’t become a sotapanna and there cannot be any knowing or reduction of this wrong view during that life-time because there cannot be any hearing or seeing of the Dhamma (no rupas experienced). So one cannot become a sotapanna during that life. Ignorance and wrong view with respect to rupas as well as namas have to arise and be experienced in order for them to be known and the latent tendency eradicated. So the idea of just trying to have more kusala and less akusala in a day does not lead to insight. This is why we have a very precious opportunity in this life to be able to really hear, read and consider the teachings which is also not possible for all humans even if they are surrounded by texts and good friends. Phil, that was a bit more of a rave than I had intended and I may have touched on a few controversial ponts. In an earlier message I had also wished to give a link to a very early letter of Jon’s (1976) about making decisions. I still can’t find the complete letter, but here RobK quotes from it: http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/m13214.html Metta, Sarah p.s If you or anyone else thinks you may have missed mails, you could periodically type your name (‘Phil’ and ‘Philip’ in your case) in the search at escribe to check (though escribe periodically misses posts too): http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/ I also find it works well to have an email account just for posts here. ====== 33112 From: Sarah Date: Tue May 18, 2004 1:35am Subject: Re: [dsg] A Wandering Mind Hi Larry, > I've been thinking the same thing today. A moment of awareness of any > kind of panic is sort of a protection against that panic, magical > armor. As you say there is no need to figure things out, analyze, or > even conceptually identify. The panic may continue to be unpleasant > but in the context of that awareness it is obviously not me. Just a > little flicker of awareness now and then really is magical. ..... Thank you for sharing this. It’s nice to be in agreement and the development of satipatthana is the only real protection or armor as you suggest. Of course during the panic there are various namas and rupas involved - the experiencing of the rupas through the body-sense, the various feelings, the thinking with fear and so on. As you say, ‘just a little flicker of awareness now and then really is magical’ and we don’t have to pin-point or analyze these moments. This is how an appreciation of ‘refuge’ which Nina and Philip were discussing grows - by knowing how the moments of awareness are different from moments without awareness. By understanding the various namas and rupas and the moments of momentary awareness when they arise, there will be less and less attachment to other methods or ways of development I think. Of course, when there’s so little awareness in a day, there’s bound to be attachment to it or the idea of a self who wants to keep it or make it last longer, but again, awareness can be aware of this attachment or wrong view too. However many times we might read or talk about awareness, it’s not the same as when it arises and is known and when it and other realities begin to be seen for what they are as anatta. Metta, Sarah ======= 33113 From: htootintnaing Date: Tue May 18, 2004 2:51am Subject: Re: [dsg] Htoo: Hetu Paccaya Initiation ( 02 ) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > Dear Htoo, > I join Sarah, I also found this way of presenting much more helpful, and > easier for the reader. > Nina. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Nina, Thanks for your encouragement. I will try to my best in presenting discussion of dhamma in different ways so that the deepest understanding may taken out from these discussion messages. With Metta, Htoo Naing 33114 From: htootintnaing Date: Tue May 18, 2004 3:06am Subject: Re: [dsg] Hetu Paccaya Initiation ( 02 ) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > Hi Htoo & All, > > I found your two `Hetu Paccaya Initiation' extracts 1 and 2 with your > extra explanations to be clear and helpful. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Sarah and All, I am discussing hetu paccaya. So 18 cittas are left. Only 71 cittas are with roots. So vipaka and kiriya that you quoted from my message is right. I was talking on javana kiriya. Regarding adosa, what you said are all right. I prefer adosa as cetasika and when talking in that sense it comprises its own meaning metta or non-hurting nature. Metta as used by daily term needs satta pannatta as an object. But adosa does not as you said. That is why I prefer adosa. Thanks for your encouragement and support. I will try to my best. With Metta, Htoo Naing 33115 From: Sarah Date: Tue May 18, 2004 3:12am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Kilesa (defilements) Hi RobM & All, Thank you for your additional comments and lively, helpful examples. I’m sure I speak for everyone when I say that we really appreciate it when you’re around to assist and share. --- robmoult wrote: > This activity drives home how ingrained habits are. Applying this to > natural decisive support condition, we can see how pervaisive are our > accumulations (both good and bad) in directing our lives. .... S: Yes. From the Visuddhimagga on latent tendencies(XXII, 60) ... For it is owing to their inveteracy that they are called inherent tendencies (anusaya) since they inhere (anusenti) as cause for the arising of greed for sense desires, etc., again and again." Also from the Cetana sutta we’ve discussed before, SN12:38 (Bodhi transl): “If, bhikkhus, one does not intend, and one does not plan, but one still has a tendency towards something, this becomes a basis for the maintenance of consciousness........Such is the origin of this whole mass of suffering.” “Spk: this refers to a moment when there is no occurrence of [wholesome and unwholesome] volition of the three planes, and no occurrence of the mental fabrications of craving and views. ‘but one still has a tendency’: by this the underlying tendencies are included because they have not been abandoned here in the resultants of the three planes........As long as the underlying tendencies exist, they become a condition for the kammic consciousness, for there is no way to prevent its arising.” .... <....> R:> We all have problems maintaining the mind / object during daily life, > but the underlying realities have not changed. What has changed is > our perspective. ... S: Of course, in truth there is no mind or object that can be maintained. Conditioned dhammas, including awareness or any other wholesome states arise and fall by conditions. Why do we wish to maintain them or who or what does the maintaining? A friend pointed out (off-list) that there are determination, willing, control, exertion, and striving, but that they are not-self. This was a good point. To take the example of willing, from ‘Summary & Exposition of the Topics of Abhidhamma’ (PTS), ch2: “Volition (cetanaa) is what wills; it directs itself and associated dhammas onto the object, or it achieves the task of forming what is formed.........Volition has the characteristic of willing. It should be seen as like a senior apprentice or a master carpenter, etc, who accomplishes others’ work as well as his own.” While I'm at it, from the same text, let me give brief definitions on determination/decision (adhimokkha) and effort/vigour (viriya): "Decision (adhimokkha) is deciding. It has the characteristic of definite conclusion. Because of its not wavering about the object, it should be seen as like a royal gate-post. "Vigour (viriya) is the state of heroes (viira), or the appropriate (vidhinaa) action that needs to be carried out (iirayitabba), needs to be performed; it is endeavour. It has the characteristic of supporting the conascent [dhammas]. by means of vigour they do not exist in a feeble condition....." ***** So of course it’s not correct to say there is no willing etc when clearly there are various mental states which perform these functions and are not self. Furthermore, of course we have to use ‘we’ and ‘self’ in our discussions. However, if we’re just interested in understanding these conditioned states as they are and appreciate that ‘willing’ or cetana, for example, arises with every single citta, including all akusala cittas, perhaps there will be less concern with ‘maintaining’, ‘controlling’ or ‘willing’. In other words, I think it’s a valid point that we shouldn’t always pounce on the idea of a self idea being around when these words are used, but we also have to appreciate that it’s a path of detachment from what arises. If it isn’t the time or there aren’t the conditions now for any of the eightfold path factors to arise, so be it. I was also reminded by the friend of the Bodhisatta’s Great Determination and perfection of the Paramis which should encourage us to develop ‘the determination and exertion for practicing mindfulness immersed in the body without alluding to any idea of a self that determines or exerts thus.’ (Also see the quote at end of post). It’s true that without allusion to any idea of a self, we can read about and reflect on the Paramis (Perfections) and appreciate these qualities to be developed. Again, only mindfulness (sati) can be aware of wholesome and unwholesome variations of these states and only understanding (pa~n~naa) can know when they arise with detachment and when they arise with attachment, which of course is most of the day for us. I’m also not sure why there would be any determination or exertion ‘for practicing mindfulness immersed in the body’ rather than developing awareness of any conditioned nama or rupa which will most definitely be accompanied by wholesome determination (adhimokkha) and right effort or exertion, surely? I think it’s very useful to consider from an Abhidhamma point of view what exactly is meant by ‘determination, willing, control, exertion, and striving’ and to find out for ourselves whether there is any idea of self involved and to learn to appreciate the distinctions between these states arising with wholesome and unwholesome moments of consciousness. I’m always very glad to be reminded of the Paramis and of these qualities perfected by the Bodhisatta. Again I’m reminded of how profound the teachings are and how easy it is for there to be misunderstandings due to our ignorance and misguided views. I look forward to any further comments. Metta, Sarah ====== > http://www.metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/4Anguttara-Nikaya/Anguttara1/2-dukanipata/001-Vassupanayikavaggo-e.htm > > Bhikkhus, you should acquire knowledge in these two things. Such as > dissatisfaction in meritorious thoughts and the non hindering exertion > in meritorious thoughts. Bhikkhus, such was my exertion in meritorious > thoughts. If it is so, may my skin, veins and bones remain. May the > whole body dry up with flesh and blood. Without attaining what has to > be attained with manly strength, effort and vigour I will not give up > effort. Bhikkhus, then I quickly attained enlightenment and the end of > unpleasantness. > > Bhikkhus, you too should exert in meritorious thoughts. If it is so, > may my skin, veins and bones remain. May the whole body dry up with > flesh and blood. Without attaining what has to be attained with manly > strength, effort and vigour I will not give up effort. Bhikkhus, if > you do so, you too before long will attain the noble end of the holy > life, for which sons of clansmen rightfully leave the household and > become homeless. You will realize it here and now and abide in it. > > Therefore bhikkhus, you should train. If it is so, may my skin, veins > and bones remain. May the whole body dry up with flesh and blood. > Without attaining what has to be attained with manly strength, effort > and vigour I will not give up effort. This is the fifth. > --------------------------------------------------------------------- 33116 From: htootintnaing Date: Tue May 18, 2004 3:35am Subject: Hetu Paccaya Initiation ( 04 ) PATTHANA DHAMMA 30 Hetu paccaya or root conditions are one of patthana paccaya. They are one of 24 conditions ... ...These 18 cittas are 10 pancavinnana cittas, 5 akusala and 5 kusala in origin, 2 sampaticchana cittas or receiving consciousness again akusala and kusala, 2 upekkha santirana cittas, akusala and kusala, and 1 kusala somanassa santirana citta. These 15 cittas are vipaka cittas and they are called ahetuka vipaka cittas. There are 3 ahetuka kiriya cittas. They are pancadvaravajjana citta, manodvaravajjana citta, and somanassa hasituppada citta. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Htoo: Kiriya citta do not have kamma potential and if these cittas arise they do not give rise to any kamma. We will not have any good or bad kamma due to maodvaravajjana citta. And so does pancadvaravajjana citta. Samanassa sahagatam ahetuka hasitappada citta is kiriya citta of arahats including The Buddha. It also does not give rise to kamma. But it does not have any root as in 71 cittas. This hasituppada citta does not have chanda or wish as an accompanying cetasika. Hasitupada has two parts. Hasita means smiling or humour. Upada means arising. Smileing just arises. As it is rootless citta, arahats can smile. But they will never laugh out loud. And they will not even laugh with voicing. They just smile and this smiling is a rare event in arahats. The Buddha smiled when Minister Sansati boozed on the elephant because that satta is just going to be liberated soon even though he at the time of drunkeness was just a puthujana. Puthujana means ordinary sattas. Puthu means countless, enormous, many, etc etc. Jananam means causing. Puthujana means those who are causing countless defilements. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- 15 ahetuka vipaka cittas and 3 ahetuka kiriya cittas are not supported by root condition. These 18 cittas are ahetuka cittas while all other cittas are called as sahetuka cittas. There are 71 sahetuka cittas. They are 2 ekahetuka cittas, 22 dvihetuka cittas, and 47 tihetuka cittas. All these 71 sahetuka cittas are supported by root condition and this condition is called as hetu paccaya. Hetu serves as the root for the whole tree. The root of a tree gives water to the whole tree, supports nutriment to the whole tree. Like a tree, the whole tree of nama-rupa are supported by stated 6 hetus. As these 6 hetus are present, they support the stem citta, all the branches cetasikas and all the leaves rupa dhamma. Ekahetuka cittas are 2 moha mula cittas. In these 2 cittas, there is no other hetu but just moha hetu. So these cittas are called ekahetuka cittas. Eka means one and that single hetu is moha. 2 moha mula cittas are upekkha saha gatam uddhacca sampayutta citta and upekkha sahagatam vicikiccha sampayutta citta. The root is moha hetu. The stem is uddhacca citta and vicikiccha citta. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Htoo: Upekkha is equanimous feeling. Saha means together or along with. Gata means 'to go'. Vicikiccha is indecisiveness. It disbelieves in Dhamma and not sure whether there is a way to be liberated. Sampayutta means megre with. Uddhacca is spreading. It is restlessness. It is restless thinking as in case of thinking when face with great loss. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- There are cetasika branches in the whole tree of nama-rupa. In uddacca citta, there are 1.phassa or contact, 2. vedana or feeling, 3. cetana or volition, 4. sanna or perception, 5. ekaggata or one-pointedness, 6.jivitindriya or mental life, 7. manasikara or attention, 8. vitakka or initial application, 9. vicara or sustained application, 10. viriya or effort, 11. adhimokkha or decisiveness, 12. ahirika or shamelessness, 13.anottappa or fearlessness, 14. uddhacca or spreading. In that tree of uddhacca there are a total of 15 cetasikas including the root moha. Leaves are cittaja rupa, kammaja rupa where uddhacca citta has to depend on that is hadaya vatthu, and utuja rupa and aharaja rupa are also so there. In the tree of vicikiccha, the root that is a single root is moha as well. The stem is vicikiccha citta. There are cetasika branches. In vicikiccha citta, as it cannot decide anything there does not arise adhimokkha. So there will be 14 cetasikas that arise in uddhacca citta. But in vicikiccha citta an extra cetasika is vicikiccha cetasikas. So there are a total of 15 cetasikas in the vicikiccha tree. The root is moha. The stem is vicikiccha citta. The branches are 14 cetasikas ( with moha there will be 15 cetasikas ). Leaves are cittaja rupa, kammaja rupa hadaya vatthu, utuja rupa and aharaja rupa.In both trees, moha is the chief. Moha supports as root conditions to all those dhamma cited above. This condition is called root condition. This is hetu paccaya. >======================================== Htoo: This is end of page 30. Actually most words have been explained in the earlier pages. But here they are re-written so that they can be easily understood. May you all be free from suffering. With Metta, Htoo Naing 33117 From: Date: Tue May 18, 2004 1:28am Subject: Re: [dsg] Formal Sitting or Natural Arising? (was: Re: Video Games?) Hi, Ken - In a message dated 5/18/04 3:11:32 AM Eastern Daylight Time, kenhowardau@y... writes: > Imagine that a Buddhist teacher was able to place a number of mental > and physical phenomena in front of you and tell you, "That is you!" > It is logically impossible of course but, even so, imagine your > reaction; "Is that all there is? This can't be right!" > > That is what the Buddha was able to do for people who were ready to > know the truth. Even now, we can learn the same lesson to the > extent alowed by our accumulated wisdom. We can read suttas in > which the Buddha describes the all: he says there are a couple of > rupas (eye-base and eye object) a slightly larger number of namas > (eye consciousness and its associated mental factors including > contact and feeling) and that is all. > > The Abhidhamma is there for those of us who want to know as much as > possible about those, and any other namas and rupas that may arise > (e.g., those that arise in a moment of hearing or in a moment of > sleeping). > > May I respectfully suggest that formal practice is there for those > of us who do not want to hear about the all? It is a later > development of populist Buddhism that appeals to our sense of self. > It offers the ideal of a `selfless self' – a self-sacrificing hero, > stoically and magnificently on the path to enlightenment. > > =========================== From my reading of the suttas, this suggestion would be news to the Buddha! With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 33118 From: Date: Tue May 18, 2004 1:30am Subject: Re: [dsg] Quiet James It's good to hear you, "quiet James"! With metta, Noisy Howard In a message dated 5/18/04 3:49:20 AM Eastern Daylight Time, buddhatrue@y... writes: > Dear Friends, > > In case anyone is wondering, I haven't fallen off the face of the > planet ;-)) Not yet, anyway. ;-). I haven't been posting lately > because, frankly, I don't have anything else to say. I have covered > just about all of the significant areas of Buddhism I wanted to > cover, have made my positions known and clear, and feel that any > more posting would be overkill. But please understand, I have not > lost my enthusiasm for the dhamma and I spend most of my free time > studying and meditating. Also, I have not lost my interest, > concerns, and connection with my dhamma friends in this group. I > wish you all health, prosperity, and happiness. So, James is quiet > but James is not gone. ;-) > > Metta, James > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 33119 From: icarofranca Date: Tue May 18, 2004 9:53am Subject: Re: [dsg] Quiet James Dear Howard! > It's good to hear you, "quiet James"! > > With metta, > Noisy Howard --------------------------------------------------------------------- Ah!!! The weather is getting warm and love is in the air (!?)...meet your perfect match in the acclaimed 3-minute time trials! Have you all ever heard about Speed Dating ? It's a clever tradition on Cambridge, even for Noble Dhamma Students as ours!!! (It's also reminding me the old cartoon "Fracturated Fairy Tales, narrated by Edward Everett Horton") Mettaya, Ícaro (hee hee hee hee...) > > In a message dated 5/18/04 3:49:20 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > buddhatrue@y... writes: > > > Dear Friends, > > > > In case anyone is wondering, I haven't fallen off the face of the > > planet ;-)) Not yet, anyway. ;-). I haven't been posting lately > > because, frankly, I don't have anything else to say. I have covered > > just about all of the significant areas of Buddhism I wanted to > > cover, have made my positions known and clear, and feel that any > > more posting would be overkill. But please understand, I have not > > lost my enthusiasm for the dhamma and I spend most of my free time > > studying and meditating. Also, I have not lost my interest, > > concerns, and connection with my dhamma friends in this group. I > > wish you all health, prosperity, and happiness. So, James is quiet > > but James is not gone. ;-) > > > > Metta, James > > > > > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble > in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a > phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) > > > > >33120 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue May 18, 2004 10:34am Subject: Perseverance in Dhamma, I, no 2 Perseverance in Dhamma, I, no 2 The conversation between the venerable Bhikkhu and Acharn Sujin took place last time I visited Thailand. A group of Dhamma friends from different countries were together for a few days and we all met in the building of the ³Foundation for the Study and Preservation of Dhamma². We had several sessions in English and after my friends had left I had more sessions in Thai. The weekend program in the Foundation is very balanced, it comprises: the study of Suttas with commentaries, of Abhidhamma, of Vinaya and dialogues about satipatthåna. Sutta reading may seem to be easy when one only pays attention to the stories and the conventional terms such as birth, old age and death, by means of which the Buddha explained the four noble Truths and the Dependent Origination. However, without the study of the Abhidhamma which explains the details of realities, we cannot understand the deep meaning of what is contained in the sutta. All the suttas actually contain Abhidhamma and are pointing to vipassanå, the way to develop right understanding of dhammas occurring in daily life. On Sundays, one hour is spent with the reading of the rules of the Vinaya and discussions about them. These rules pertain to the monk¹s behaviour and speech in his daily life and explain the different degrees of defilements that occur and that should be discerned. Also laypeople can apply the Vinaya in their own situation. Many defilements are unnoticed, but understanding developed through satipatthåna can investigate their true nature, and this will lead to their eradication. Several teachers are assisting Acharn Sujin and I was impressed by their thorough and detailed study of the texts and their dedication. After a full day of Dhamma discussion on Sunday with only one hour in between for luncheon, there is another session of two more hours of studying and discussing subtle points of the teachings and the consultation of the Pali texts. All those sessions were greatly inspiring to me and they helped me to have more confidence in the Dhamma. Khun Duangduen, with her abundant hospitality, gave a luncheon in her house as she always does on Sundays. Even while taking the food at the buffet table we could exchange observations on the difficult nature of satipatthåna, and remind each other that we should not become discouraged. Also Mom Betty Bongkojpriya and Sukinderpal who are residents of Bangkok gave a luncheon for the whole group of foreign friends. During my last days in Bangkok, Acharn Sujin and her sister Khun Jid invited us for luncheon, there was no limit to their hospitality and kindness. At the weekend people bring flowers to be placed in front of the relics of the Buddha. They were so kind to hand them to me, so that I had many times an opportunity to kneel in front of the relics and pay respect. When Acharn Sujin also knelt next to me to pay respect, I had an opportunity to pay respect to her at her feet. With this gesture I expressed respect and gratefulness for learning through her to develop understanding of the Dhamma. **** Nina. 33121 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue May 18, 2004 10:34am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Vis 78 and Tiika Hi Larry, op 17-05-2004 21:39 schreef Larry op LBIDD@w...: > > When kamma is performed through the body without intimation what is > the door? N: Let me give an example. You can pay respect to the Buddha through body, speech and mind. it is kusala kamma. Through the body: you bend your head, fold your hands, or kneel down. This is not like a ritual, everybody pays respect in the way that suits his culture or inclination. Through speech: you say Buddha.m sarana.m gacchaami (I go for refuge to the Buddha). Through the mind: in your working situation, for example, you can pay respect inwardly, thinking of his excellent qualities. Kamma is volition, cetanaa. Through the Bodydoor: this is explained by way of conventional terms, through movement of body or hands, head, etc. See above. Door of kamma: the means through which kamma is being performed. L:Why isn't life faculty included? N: You think of the groups of rupa, and the groups produced by kamma, which include life-faculty. This is another aspect, not dealing with the above. All groups of rupa are arising and falling away when we say: kneeling down. Remember: when the groups produced by kamma move, all the groups produced by citta, nutrition and temperature move. L:Can we say doors only > accomodate one way traffic? N: When we speak about kamma performed through doorways we think of the cetanaa of the person who performs it, thus you would say, one way traffic, but this expression may be confusing. Kamma is performed by means of body, speech or mind. L: The five senses passively opening in and > the two intimations plus body (not body sensitivity) actively opening > out? What delimits in and out? space? N: The sense-doors: we should not drive this simile too far, thinking of a door that is opening. The outer object,(outer ayaatana or sensefield, meets the inner ayaatana, the senseorgan that is sensedoor, so that a sense object can be experienced. A door is simply a means by way of which an object is experienced. Sometimes in the Tipitaka closing the doorways is used, meaning, not paying attention with akusala. Does this make sense to you? L: When I focus my eye on a particular thing is that kamma performed through the body? N: No, no movement of the body or gesture. L: Are body parts (hands, feet etc.) produced by temperature rather than kamma? N: The groups of rupa produced by the four factors are included in what we call hands, feet. Not just temperature. Nina. 33122 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue May 18, 2004 10:34am Subject: Re: [dsg] Philip, Deeds of Merit, no 1. Dear Philip, Excellent idea. Your idea prompted me to take it out and use it also for Lodewijk (just say Louis, is easier) for our "edifying reading" at mealtimes. A suggestion: people who are short of time find this post too long. What if you just cut it up in small sections? I shall do now just one section. op 18-05-2004 01:34 schreef Philip op plnao@j...: > Chapter 1 Generosity (snip) > If there are more akusala cittas arising than kusala cittas while we > give something away, I think that it would be better to give > something else which can be a condition for the arising of more > kusala cittas than akusala cittas. > > Ph: As for akusala and kusala related to giving, I have not > thought eneough about it. I am not one who gives a lot in the > material sense. I talk about giving my full presence when teaching. N: while teaching there are many different cittas, kusala cittas and akusala cittas. You can teach with generosity, wanting to help, but there are not only kusala cittas. Here is a situation of teaching, but there are many different cittas. Ph: For example, I wanted > to give a gift to the Dhamma Foundation.... but it would involve a but of > a tussle with the Finance Minister N: I sensed this and that is why I hesitated to give you the info about the Foundation. Un peu contrecoeur. That is why A. S. said:< it would be better to give > something else which can be a condition for the arising of more > kusala cittas than akusala cittas.> The idea is not that you have to get yourself into trouble and as a consequence akusala cittas. As you read, dana does not only include giving material things, but many other ways of giving. Knowing about these helps us to perform kusala. What kind of giving depends on conditions, the situation, the citta at that moment, etc. You know that also forgiving is a kind of dana? > S. : Someone is lax (in generosity) if he has misgivings about > giving anything at all... Such a person does not understand that > at each moment of generosity there is elimination of avarice and of > clinging to possessions, which are defilements accumulated in the > citta. > Ph: There is a Buddhist monk who stands in front of a station I > pass by twice a week... I don?ft know > if he is legitimate. That is stinginess. N: No. We have to consider what we give and to whom. Not just give without thinking. We are not supposed to give money to a monk, this is even wrong, but we should help the monk to observe Vinaya. Ph: Also, I am lax about giving souvenirs from my trip to students and co- > workers the way that is expected in Japan. I have always thought it > felt obligatory, and resisted, but that shows laxness on my part ... N: It all depends on the citta. Giving because people expect it may not be kusala. One does not want to become impopular, is that kusala? A. Sujin also said: giving is difficult. We have to take many things into consideration: do we give something useful for the other person, etc. The sotapanna does not give away all his money, one has to be practical. And it is not right to get your spouse or family into trouble. No need to find fault with yourself, we have to be reasonable. This is all for now. I was thinking of your family problems. A. Sujin is an example showing how satipatthana helps in daily life. She is very practical and knows the right thing to do for all parties. She also had to talk with her family about money matters, heritage, and so on. I saw a Sutta in Grad. S. about the wise person being practical, but have no time to check it. Nina. 33123 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue May 18, 2004 10:34am Subject: Re: [dsg] Nibbana and Perseverance. Hi Larry and Howard, op 18-05-2004 03:00 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > AS: "Most important in life is understanding reality. Otherwise all > phenomema of life are still 'I', and the cycle of birth and death will > continue." > I like this. Another way to say the same thing with different emphasis > is: the most important is nibbana. N: Nibbana is only a word to us. But there is a Path! Better emphasize the way leading to it: develop understanding of dhamma now. Thinking of nibbana that is only a word distracts from understanding of dhamma now. Howard wanted to know about Co. In the Tipitaka and Co. there are not many details about nibbana. Neither are there many details about the stages of insight leading to it, or about the lokuttara cittas that experience nibbana. When panna reaches stages of insight or even becomes lokuttara panna, no words are needed. Panna realizes the truth directly. I can give some references here and there. T.G. gave some references from the Patisambhida Magga, I was also thinking of that. More: Dsgn, at end, p. 341: Rupa and nibbana are without objects of thought. Thus, nibbana is nama but not citta (see the Mahayana: luminous mind, this is a different idea.) And appendix II about the unconditioned. Its Co, the Expositor II, p. 501: nibbana is nama; because of the dominant influence of object it bends sobhana dhammas on to itself. (Discussed here before). Namati is to bend. and p. 518: as freedom. gone away from the jungle of craving. Expositor I, p. 67: it is leading out. Path of Discrimination, p. 361: voidness (su~n~natta) < this occurrence of eye ends and no further occurrence of eye arises>, and so on for the other senses and the mind. N: Thus, no more arising at rebirth of eye, etc. . There are many aspects of su~n~natta mentioned here. U Narada, Conditional Relations: concept and nibbana as object: both are timeless. And p. 138, the chart: nibbana as the conditioning dhamma for the 8 supramundane consciousnesses. As said, I am not inclined to speculate about nibbana. I do not recall A. Sujin speaking much about nibbana. In the Thera-therigatha: the theras and theris speak about their attaining of enlightenment, and nibbana as the cool. In the Co it is emphasized what a long way it is to reach it. Aeons of development of panna. Is it not enough to know this? Don't we lose precious time when we speculate about nibbana? Nina. 33124 From: Date: Tue May 18, 2004 6:56am Subject: Re: [dsg] Quiet James Hi, Icaro - In a message dated 5/18/04 1:50:37 PM Eastern Daylight Time, icarofranca@y... writes: > > Dear Howard! > > >It's good to hear you, "quiet James"! > > > >With metta, > >Noisy Howard > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Ah!!! > The weather is getting warm and love is in the air (!?)...meet your > perfect match in the acclaimed 3-minute time trials! > Have you all ever heard about Speed Dating ? > It's a clever tradition on Cambridge, even for Noble Dhamma > Students as ours!!! > (It's also reminding me the old cartoon "Fracturated Fairy Tales, > narrated by Edward Everett Horton") > > Mettaya, Ícaro (hee hee hee hee...) > ===================== ;-)) You have quite the sense of humor, Icaro. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 33125 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Tue May 18, 2004 1:07pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Breath as bodily formation (was, Pannatti (Concept)) Hi Howard, The distinction of being actual versus being conventional is not a valid distinction. That distinction contains the assumption that being actual means being unconventional and the assumption that being conventional means being not actual. In other words, that distinction assumes that being actual is opposite to being conventional in meaning. However, given the definitions of the terms "conventional" and "actual" [1], being actual does not imply being unconventional and being conventional does not imply being not actual. An actual-vs-not-actual distinction or a conventional-vs- unconventional distinction would be valid. Metta, Victor [1] Main Entry: con·ven·tion·al Pronunciation: k&n-'vench-n&l, -'ven(t)-sh&-n&l Function: adjective 1 : formed by agreement or compact 2 a : according with, sanctioned by, or based on convention b : lacking originality or individuality : TRITE c (1) : ORDINARY, COMMONPLACE (2) : NONNUCLEAR 1 3 a : according with a mode of artistic representation that simplifies or provides symbols or substitutes for natural forms b : of traditional design 4 : of, resembling, or relating to a convention , assembly, or public meeting synonym see CEREMONIAL Main Entry: ac·tu·al Pronunciation: 'ak-ch(&-w)&l, -sh(&-w)&l Function: adjective Etymology: Middle English actuel, from Middle French, from Late Latin actualis, from Latin actus act 1 obsolete : ACTIVE 2 a : existing in act and not merely potentially b : existing in fact or reality c : not false or apparent 3 : existing or occurring at the time : CURRENT http://www.webster.com --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Victor - > > In a message dated 5/17/04 12:50:51 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > yu_zhonghao@y... writes: > > > Hi Howard, > > > > Breaths/in-&-out breathings are inconstant, dukkha, not self, and it > > is to be seen as it actually is thus: inconstant, dukkha, not > > self. > > > > Breaths/in-&-out breathings are bodily fabrications, and bodily > > fabrications are conditioned, not unconditioned. > > > > Metta, > > Victor > > > =========================== > I understand that you don't make the actual-versus- conventional > distinction. I do make that distinction. I understand what you say above as true, > but you and I don't view it in exactly the same way. So it is. > > With metta, > Howard 33126 From: icarofranca Date: Tue May 18, 2004 2:14pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Vis 78 and Tiika Dear Nina: Respectfully butting in... The outer object,(outer ayaatana or sensefield, meets the > inner ayaatana, the senseorgan that is sensedoor, so that a sense object can > be experienced. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Ah... winter's gone! Birds fluting new songs, bees buzzing exquisite tunes between beautiful flowers! The Quest for Paradise is possible!!! Outer objects meet inner ayaatanaa at the best Speed Datings ever seem on Cambridge!!! --------------------------------------------------------------------- A door is simply a means by way of which an object is > experienced. Sometimes in the Tipitaka closing the doorways is used, > meaning, not paying attention with akusala. Does this make sense to you? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- That's the way I understand it: as the interplay between verb and adverb at a single sentence. Looking at Pali syntax structure all these menuet of cetasikas becomes very illuminating as a matter of language formating of our minds. Mettaya, Ícaro 33127 From: Date: Tue May 18, 2004 10:21am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Breath as bodily formation (was, Pannatti (Concept)) Hi, Victor - In a message dated 5/18/04 4:10:48 PM Eastern Daylight Time, yu_zhonghao@y... writes: > > Hi Howard, > > The distinction of being actual versus being conventional is not a > valid distinction. That distinction contains the assumption that > being actual means being unconventional and the assumption that > being conventional means being not actual. In other words, that > distinction assumes that being actual is opposite to being > conventional in meaning. > > However, given the definitions of the terms "conventional" > and "actual" [1], being actual does not imply being unconventional > and being conventional does not imply being not actual. > > An actual-vs-not-actual distinction or a conventional-vs- > unconventional distinction would be valid. > > Metta, > Victor ====================== The distinction, more carefully stated, is not between actual and conventional, but between actual and *merely* conventional. And I do believe that the distinction is a valid one. I accept that you do not. Why don't you accept that I do, and leave it at that? With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 33128 From: Philip Date: Tue May 18, 2004 2:51pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Philip, Dhammasangani and war on web Hello Nina, and all. I'm always a few threads behind, but I'd like to consider this one more fully. > N: Philip, you wrote about some problems connected with surfing on the web > war program. It is a very human situation and with the Dhammasangani in hand > I would like to make some practical observations. > We all have troubling accumulations with regard to different things, > depending on the individual. But we can learn from them. We can learn more > about our deeply accumulated akusala. Ph: Thanks to this group, I really feel this is beginning to happen. I also see that while I understand others' behaviour as conditioned in a way that seems to have freed me from becoming angry at or hurt by them (well, not completely of course, but there is much less irritability and sadness related to other people) I still was holding on to the wrong view that I could act in a way that denied the power of my own conditions. This was driven home yesterday when I took the train and was thinking about this very thought, and then one station later (about 5 minutes) found myself thinking about an incident in which a co-worker had been scolded by a cranky businessman for being too noisy (westerners are noisy here) and how the co-worker had follwed the businessman off the train and harassed him, and I found myself thinking how I would have enjoyed harassing him too and what I would have said and done to frighten him. My goodness! Where had the wholesome reflections gone in a few short minutes! They were swept away by my conditioned patterns of thinking. I leaned from this - and it is hardly deeply accumulated akusala from another life. Just crud from a few short years ago! :) N: >Only lokuttara citta can eradicate > latent tendencies. But we can develop more understanding, we can learn that > kusala citta as well as akusala citta are conditioned. What has happened has > happened and it is of no use to have regret, then you only accumulate more > aversion. Ph: Isn't there some place for regret? Isn't a sense of shame considered one of the wholesome kusala? That doesn't apply to regret? In the passages I posted from "Deeds of Merit" K Sujin talked about the benefits of reflecting on our wholesome deeds. Wouldn't there be similar benefit to reflecting on our unwholesome deed? I can see there could be attachment in the former and aversion in the latter - but could it not also condition the arising of samvega. It seems that samvega- a sense of urgency- comes from sensing the way the house is burning. Perhaps regrets at out own behaviour would make this samvega very clear. N:>Let's just consider the present now. We cannot plan or select > anything with regard to the future which has not come yet, but we can > understand conditions. Ph: Despite what I said about the possible value of considering regrets, I can see of course that this is what really is important. Considering the present now. It is very ....I want to say thrilling for some reason....to begin to become aware of conditions. There is still this feeling of something ecstatic about rising and falling rupa and nama - but I know that's going to turn out to be wrong understanding. (snip) N:> the Expositor (p. 100): Ph: I haven't been able to understand this passage yet but it has been conditioned for future understanding :) N :> I read part of this to Lodewijk at luncheon, but he likes it so much that I > have to read it again at dinner. Ph: I wish I could be a fly on the wall in your home and hear those discussions, though I guess I'd have to be a fly who understood Dutch. Reading about your conversations with Lodewijk continues to better dinner conversations with Naomi. The days of watching "Cops" while munching in silence are done - for now. N: > We can prove all this: when our confidence has become stronger happy feeling > and enthusiasm (piti) can arise with the kusala citta. At the same time we > need panna, because lobha with happy feeling is bound to arise in > alternation with kusala citta. Wihout panna we may easily delude ourselves. Ph: A bit off the point, but I was impressed by Christine's consideration of lobha that arose with the happy feelings of the dhamma meeting last month. At this point in my understanding it seems that attachment to dhamma discussion is a wholesome thing that inevitably leads us to deeper understanding and therefore panna and release from attachment. LIke I was saying in another thread to Sarah - it seems to me that exposure to the Buddha's teaching *and* discussions with dhamma friends who have right understanding will lead one in the right direction away from fictions of self, etc. I haven't yet read Sarah's response to that - I will catch up. (snip) N :> Once in the U.S.A. I heard a teacher say that most people live under the > standard of their capacities, thus, everybody could do so much more than > they actually do. This impressed me, I have always remembered this. Ph: Now I will too :) I'm very impressed by the level of activity of people in this group. The way you find time to write and translate so much as well as participating here, and there are family and friends as well. I don't know the deatails of other people's daily schedules, but I know how busy Sarah and Jon are. I do want to live up to my capacity more. I have an inkling that working on defilements and hindrances will unleash a more productive Phil, just as it releases more metta and other beautiful cetasikas. But no expecations. Metta, Phil p.s this goes without saying, Nina, but as you are so busy please don't feel any obligation to respond to this. Well, perhaps only the question about regret, if you have a moment. 33129 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Tue May 18, 2004 4:14pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Breath as bodily formation (was, Pannatti (Concept)) Hi Howard, Qualifying the word "conventional" with the term "merely" does not make the distinction between being actual and being merely conventional a valid one. Why is that? Because being merely conventional does not imply being not actual, and being actual does not imply being not merely conventional. Again, a valid distinction would be the distinction between being actual and being not actual or the distinction between being merely conventional and being not merely conventional. Metta, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Victor - > > In a message dated 5/18/04 4:10:48 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > yu_zhonghao@y... writes: > > > > > Hi Howard, > > > > The distinction of being actual versus being conventional is not a > > valid distinction. That distinction contains the assumption that > > being actual means being unconventional and the assumption that > > being conventional means being not actual. In other words, that > > distinction assumes that being actual is opposite to being > > conventional in meaning. > > > > However, given the definitions of the terms "conventional" > > and "actual" [1], being actual does not imply being unconventional > > and being conventional does not imply being not actual. > > > > An actual-vs-not-actual distinction or a conventional-vs- > > unconventional distinction would be valid. > > > > Metta, > > Victor > ====================== > The distinction, more carefully stated, is not between actual and > conventional, but between actual and *merely* conventional. And I do believe that > the distinction is a valid one. I accept that you do not. Why don't you accept > that I do, and leave it at that? > > With metta, > Howard 33130 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Tue May 18, 2004 4:14pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Anapanasati Sutta (was, Pannatti (Concept)) Victor >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> So what does the passage "Mindfulness of in-&-out breathing, when developed & pursued, is of great fruit, of great benefit. Mindfulness of in-&-out breathing, when developed & pursued, brings the four frames of reference to their culmination. The four frames of reference, when developed & pursued, bring the seven factors for Awakening to their culmination. The seven factors for Awakening, when developed & pursued, bring clear knowing & release to their culmination." mean, given the context that you provided? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Any explanation of the meaning of this passage should take account of a number of things mentioned in the description of the occasion on which the teaching was given (which i included with my original post, and to which I give paragraph references in what follows). The persons to whom the teaching is principally directed are monks who are 'devoted to mindfulness of in-&-out breathing' [14]. Thus they are already skilled in mindfulness of breathing, and also capable of developing it further. Despite this, however, they are not yet among those who are 'devoted to the development of the four frames of reference... the seven factors for Awakening... the noble eightfold path' [12], i.e., they are not yet established in the development of insight (vipassana). Now according to the passage, if mindfulness of breathing is developed and pursued by these monks as to be described in the sutta, they will then also be developing 'the four frames of reference... the seven factors for Awakening... clear knowing & release' [15]. This I take to mean they will be developing insight (vipassana) as for those just described [12]. From all this it seems to me that 'mindfulness of breathing' means 'samatha with breath as object', and what is being said is that there is a way in which samatha with breath as object can be 'developed and pursued' together with insight. Also present among the assembly of monks are monks who are 'devoted to the development of' the Brahma-Viharas, foulness of the body and the perception of impermanence [13]. Although these monks too are developing samatha, there is no teaching given for the development of insight in their case. This confirms that breathing is a special case in some regard. However, there's nothing so far to suggest that breathing is special in the sense of being specially effective or appropriate for the development of insight. Note that, among the groups of monks described in the assembly, the monks who are 'devoted to mindfulness of in-&-out breathing' [14] are the least advanced in overall level of attainment [8] to [14]. (However, from what follows in the sutta and from comments elsewhere it appears that the potential fruits of development of insight coupled with samatha with breath as object can be higher than other forms of attainment.) Taking all these considerations into account, my understanding of the passage is as follows: If a monk who is already skilled in the development of samatha with breath as object develops not only samatha with breath as object but also insight in the manner to be described in detail in this sutta, there is for that monk the possibility of attaining enlightenment based on jhaana with breath as object. I'd be interested to hear your comments on this. Jon 33131 From: Date: Tue May 18, 2004 4:34pm Subject: Re: Nibbana as Unconditioned and Permanent [Re: [dsg] Do or not do something] Howard: "I don't think we should be overly certain about what is real and what is not." Hi Howard, I agree. In fact it's not even a problem. I'm not certain about anything ;-) But I think its good to think about nibbana once in a while. It is integral to the entire orientation of the path. Larry 33132 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Tue May 18, 2004 4:41pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Anapanasati Sutta (was, Pannatti (Concept)) Hi Jon, Given how you understand the passage "Mindfulness of in-&-out breathing, when developed & pursued, is of great fruit, of great benefit. Mindfulness of in-&-out breathing, when developed & pursued, brings the four frames of reference to their culmination. The four frames of reference, when developed & pursued, bring the seven factors for Awakening to their culmination. The seven factors for Awakening, when developed & pursued, bring clear knowing & release to their culmination." let me ask you the following questions: Is mindfulness of in-&-out breathing, when developed & pursued, of great fruit, of great benefit? Does mindfulness of in-&-out breathing, when developed & pursued, bring the four frames of reference to their culmination? Do the four frames of reference, when developed & pursued, bring the seven factors for Awakening to their culmination? Do the seven factors for Awakening, when developed & pursued, bring clear knowing & release to their culmination? Metta, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Victor > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > So what does the passage > "Mindfulness of in-&-out breathing, when developed & pursued, is of > great fruit, of great benefit. Mindfulness of in-&-out breathing, > when developed & pursued, brings the four frames of reference to > their culmination. The four frames of reference, when developed & > pursued, bring the seven factors for Awakening to their culmination. > The seven factors for Awakening, when developed & pursued, bring > clear knowing & release to their culmination." > mean, given the context that you provided? > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > Any explanation of the meaning of this passage should take account of > a number of things mentioned in the description of the occasion on > which the teaching was given (which i included with my original post, > and to which I give paragraph references in what follows). > > The persons to whom the teaching is principally directed are monks > who are 'devoted to mindfulness of in-&-out breathing' [14]. Thus > they are already skilled in mindfulness of breathing, and also > capable of developing it further. > > Despite this, however, they are not yet among those who are 'devoted > to the development of the four frames of reference... the seven > factors for Awakening... the noble eightfold path' [12], i.e., they > are not yet established in the development of insight (vipassana). > > Now according to the passage, if mindfulness of breathing is > developed and pursued by these monks as to be described in the sutta, > they will then also be developing 'the four frames of reference... > the seven factors for Awakening... clear knowing & release' [15]. > This I take to mean they will be developing insight (vipassana) as > for those just described [12]. > > From all this it seems to me that 'mindfulness of breathing' means > 'samatha with breath as object', and what is being said is that there > is a way in which samatha with breath as object can be 'developed and > pursued' together with insight. > > Also present among the assembly of monks are monks who are 'devoted > to the development of' the Brahma-Viharas, foulness of the body and > the perception of impermanence [13]. Although these monks too are > developing samatha, there is no teaching given for the development of > insight in their case. This confirms that breathing is a special > case in some regard. However, there's nothing so far to suggest that > breathing is special in the sense of being specially effective or > appropriate for the development of insight. Note that, among the > groups of monks described in the assembly, the monks who are 'devoted > to mindfulness of in-&-out breathing' [14] are the least advanced in > overall level of attainment [8] to [14]. (However, from what follows > in the sutta and from comments elsewhere it appears that the > potential fruits of development of insight coupled with samatha with > breath as object can be higher than other forms of attainment.) > > Taking all these considerations into account, my understanding of the > passage is as follows: > If a monk who is already skilled in the development of samatha with > breath as object develops not only samatha with breath as object but > also insight in the manner to be described in detail in this sutta, > there is for that monk the possibility of attaining enlightenment > based on jhaana with breath as object. > > I'd be interested to hear your comments on this. > > Jon 33133 From: Date: Tue May 18, 2004 0:55pm Subject: Re: Nibbana as Unconditioned and Permanent [Re: [dsg] Do or not do something] Hi, Larry - In a message dated 5/18/04 7:49:44 PM Eastern Daylight Time, LBIDD@w... writes: > Howard: "I don't think we should be overly certain about what is real > and what is not." > > Hi Howard, > > I agree. In fact it's not even a problem. I'm not certain about anything > ;-) But I think its good to think about nibbana once in a while. It is > integral to the entire orientation of the path. > > Larry > ======================= Yes, I agree. No nibbana, no Dhamma. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 33134 From: Philip Date: Tue May 18, 2004 5:29pm Subject: Re: [dsg] re: Global chaos or a cup of tea HI Sarah, and all Ph: > but I'm interested in the idea that before self is > > fully understood to be a fiction, and is released, it can become a > > more refined fiction, a more wholesome fiction. > .... > S: Never a wholesome fiction?Ewhen it is based on sakkaya ditthi > (self-view). Ph: I guess I just sense it is an inevitable fiction, for the time being. I remember when you once said to someone in a thread words to the effect that you are not even able to imagine there being a self, or conceive of it, or something like that. You have gotten to that point of understanding. For me, I am still so wrapped up in wrong self that I can only begin to understand that self is not. I know the idea of creating a fiction about self is wrong and dangerous, so I won't do it. The Buddha's teaching and discussion with people who have right understanding will continue to help right understanding to gradually arise in me. Another problem for me is that I find myself in a situation in which if I want to pursue a career in writing here, a public personna will be necessary. I will be playing the role of the friendly- looking, Japanese speaking foreign children's book writer. This personna will be created that will make it even harder for me to be liberated from self. Of course we all have public personnas. But there is something about being a visible minority in the most homogenous society on earth that makes it even harder to shake a belief in this personna. It will be interesting to read the posts I am writing now and the ones I write in the years to come and see how much less self-absorbed they will become. It is the More About Phil Show for now, but not forever. Ph> > As Sarah said this belief could lead to make it harder to finally > > let the fiction of self go, but I think that underestimates the power > > of the Buddha's teaching.. Constant exposure to the Buddha's > > teaching and good Dhamma friends would lead one eventually to waking > > up from the fiction, > ..... > S: I'd like to pick up on a point that I think Rob Ep was making too. We > cannot assume that constant exposure....?Ewill lead to eventual waking up > unless it is accompanied by the development of wisdom. Ph: Thank you! I missed it. Very interesting snake. I do believe, however, that constant exposure *and* discussion with dhamma friends who have right understanding will not fail to lead me away from fictions about self. How do I know that my dhamma friends have right understanding if I don't have right understanding yet? Well, years of formal practice multiplied by number of Useful Posts at DSG divided by incidents of rude speech = level of understanding seems reliable. haha. Metta, Phil 33135 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Wed May 19, 2004 2:59am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Anapanasati Sutta (was, Pannatti (Concept)) Victor >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Given how you understand the passage "Mindfulness of in-&-out breathing, when developed & pursued, is of great fruit, of great benefit. Mindfulness of in-&-out breathing, when developed & pursued, brings the four frames of reference to their culmination. ..." let me ask you the following questions: Is mindfulness of in-&-out breathing, when developed & pursued, of great fruit, of great benefit? Does mindfulness of in-&-out breathing, when developed & pursued, bring the four frames of reference to their culmination? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> In your last post you asked me to give my understanding of the passage from which your present questions are taken, and I did that. I doubt that the questions now being asked cover any ground that was not covered in that last request, but here goes anyway. I would say that a qualified 'yes' applies to each of your questions, that is, 'Yes, but only in the sense and to the extent implicit in the passage (i.e., as I understand the passage, as already explained)'. Was there anything in my last post that you would like to comment on? Jon --- yu_zhonghao wrote: > Hi Jon, > > Given how you understand the passage > > "Mindfulness of in-&-out breathing, when developed & pursued, is of > great fruit, of great benefit. Mindfulness of in-&-out breathing, > when developed & pursued, brings the four frames of reference to > their culmination. The four frames of reference, when developed & > pursued, bring the seven factors for Awakening to their > culmination. > The seven factors for Awakening, when developed & pursued, bring > clear knowing & release to their culmination." > > let me ask you the following questions: > > Is mindfulness of in-&-out breathing, when developed & pursued, of > great fruit, of great benefit? > > Does mindfulness of in-&-out breathing, when developed & pursued, > bring the four frames of reference to their culmination? > > Do the four frames of reference, when developed & pursued, bring > the > seven factors for Awakening to their culmination? > > Do the seven factors for Awakening, when developed & pursued, bring > clear knowing & release to their culmination? > > > Metta, > Victor 33136 From: Sukinderpal Singh Narula Date: Wed May 19, 2004 3:31am Subject: Formal Sitting or Natural Arising? (was: Re: Video Games?) Hi Rob, I had a molar extracted yesterday, so am a bit late in responding. :-) > I think we are into a very important and frustrating > area where the rubber meets the road so to speak. At the altar of > reality, we have to be willing to give up all our treasured notions. > Perhaps I will wind up devoting myself to study, why you must take up > the meditation cushion -- just punishment for us both!! I guess only panna will recognize wrong view and attachment, and in doing so, for a moment at least, there will be any detachment. No `self' to give up any treasured notion and seeking another activity. Study is as much and `idea' as meditation is. Both will involve `self view' if not understood properly. This is why I wanted to avoid comparison between what each of us do conventionally. There are only conditions and in them there are no stories about dhamma and any `self' practicing or studying. But we do try to string together perceptions, perverted at that, and with mana, lobha and ditthi, an image of `I' in relation to the world is created and taken very seriously. This is why in another post, I remarked about how we easily use our superficial knowledge of the dhamma to justify `what we do'. Wrong view can use dhamma concepts to explain away anything. Only the more discerning can point our mistake to us. And speaking of "activities", you doing formal meditation and I study, is a good place where both of us can justify ourselves with any wrong view. That is why I wanted to avoid discussing on this level. Taking these conventional realities so seriously, we miss understanding the underlying ultimate realities. These are meant to be insighted, and in the process the conventional realities are seen as unreal. So Rob, it seems that so long as we continue to justify what "we" do, we are in fact; misusing our knowledge about dhamma and risking further attachment to those activities. Here I think lies the significance of `insight'; or at least a correct `intellectual understanding'. It reveals what is real and what is not, and does not involve coming to an agreement. And this is why I think; we cannot use `self' to reach an understanding of `not-self', because we will end up making such a compromise. For example, when you have identified `practice' with `formal meditation', you seem to be disregarding the fact that realities are all there is or else you believe that a certain time, place and posture is more conducive to mindfulness. What you don't seem to acknowledge is that `sati' is a conditioned reality and those conditions are very complex, certainly not residing in any conventional activity such as `formal meditation'. The very concept of `meditation' is ignorance of conditionality. The idea of better time, place and posture (closing one's eye etc.) is wrong view. If there is no sati now, even this can be pointed out to, from reading, mentally recalling or listening, and this is already a level of sati, even though only `pariyatti'. Why ignore this and think that the problem lies either in the noise around you and consequently seek a better time and place? Or be drawn into a reasoning which states that wisdom can be slowly developed through a prescribed activity in time? Why insist that `formal practice' involve some of the needed conditions for sati, though I have not seen anyone stating what those might be? The noise is this very desire for something else and something more, not any conditioned reality now. If there is no sati and panna in the moment, even this can be known, and perhaps one will realize that what needs to be done is to keep listening to dhamma. ;-) So Rob, seeing the importance of study is not only because we need to have an intellectual understanding as basis, but also because when there is any realization of how little panna there is, it seems to be the only sensible conclusion! You talked about personally having the inclination to practice, compared to some of us who are probably more inclined to study. This is not so. Personally, I have at all no inclination to read, and as I have said before, the amount of reading I have done on DSG these past three plus years, is 3 times more than I have ever read during the remainder part of my life. And though I prefer the way Nina writes about realities as compared to the dryness of the original texts, I am more interested in finding out how this applies to the circumstances of my life. So perhaps I too am more inclined to being `practical' ;-)? But then this is also only on the level of thinking. :-/ Anyway here too the problem is taking seriously a `convention'. We all have had conventional ideas of theory and practice, and in worldly matters, this must be made because "we" factor in. But when it comes to understanding dhamma, there is no place for a `self' and what it wrongly believes to be sati and panna. As I have been stressing, we need to really consider what happens on the paramattha level, and determine what here, pariyatti and patipatti means. If we are limited to the conventional understanding, then we will not appreciate the fact that sati can arise at anytime. Even while engaging in what you consider `study' *it can happen*! In fact, it happens most likely when one is reminded in the moment about what `dhamma' is, provided of course, that much previous development has taken place. And this is why I think, many during the Buddha's time got enlightened on the spot while listening to the Buddha. Besides, often what also happens is kusala `listening' (Ken H. is this what you mean?) conditioned by strong Saddha in the Teachings. If we are caught in the idea of time, place and posture, then it is quite unlikely that on hearing the `words', sati will arise to be aware of the arisen reality. In fact, I would go further to suggest that if it is not "now" then it will never happen. What will happen, will be the result of the same wrong view which conditioned the idea of `formal practice'. And the whole Buddhist world seems stuck on this level, mistaking wrong sati for right sati and wrong view for panna. I don't expect you to be convinced. And I am basically repeating myself. So perhaps we should drop this discussion for now? There will be reference to this on and off in other threads which we both will read ;-). Metta, Sukin. Ps: Rob, as you are working with actors, you would have noticed how easily states of mind can be made to arise almost as if there was `free will'. But in reality, this is because the conditions for akusala are so much in excess that with little prompting almost any arammana through any of the 6 doorways can condition those akusala states. But can kusala be made to arise the same way? If it happens it must be outside the stage, and this too not willfully? Neither kusala nor akusala can be willed, but the latter has a higher chance given how little sati and panna has been accumulated. If we have a misunderstanding of what the Buddha really taught and believe amongst other things, that he taught formal practice, then the chance that akusala will be conditioned during those times increases. And the real danger is that we take it for kusala and go on to associate it with the Path. I don't particularly worry about the usual attachment to sense objects and any subsequent dosa. But the Teachings are precious, and this may be the last time we will ever come into contact with it in this Buddhasassana. So I think it is important that we should not misunderstand the meaning. There is no limit to the usefulness of study. But you need to `understand' this, not just follow an activity. If you realize how little understanding there is even on the intellectual level, then perhaps you might see the importance of hearing more, I think. 33137 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Wed May 19, 2004 6:58am Subject: [dsg] Re: Anapanasati Sutta (was, Pannatti (Concept)) Hi Jon, Regarding your last message, The passage "Mindfulness of in-&-out breathing, when developed & pursued, is of great fruit, of great benefit. Mindfulness of in-&-out breathing, when developed & pursued, brings the four frames of reference to their culmination. The four frames of reference, when developed & pursued, bring the seven factors for Awakening to their culmination. The seven factors for Awakening, when developed & pursued, bring clear knowing & release to their culmination." and the discourse as whole do not mean nor imply that "If a monk who is already skilled in the development of samatha with breath as object develops not only samatha with breath as object but also insight in the manner to be described in detail in this sutta, there is for that monk the possibility of attaining enlightenment based on jhaana with breath as object." The passage "Mindfulness of in-&-out breathing, when developed & pursued, is of great fruit, of great benefit. Mindfulness of in-&-out breathing, when developed & pursued, brings the four frames of reference to their culmination. The four frames of reference, when developed & pursued, bring the seven factors for Awakening to their culmination. The seven factors for Awakening, when developed & pursued, bring clear knowing & release to their culmination." means exactly what it says. And with what is being said in the passage, the Buddha then taught in the rest of the discourse with regard to the questions: How is mindfulness of in-&-out breathing developed & pursued so as to be of great fruit, of great benefit? How is mindfulness of in-&-out breathing developed & pursued so as to bring the four frames of reference to their culmination? How are the four frames of reference developed & pursued so as to bring the seven factors for Awakening to their culmination? How are the seven factors for Awakening developed & pursued so as to bring clear knowing & release to their culmination? Metta, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Victor > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > Given how you understand the passage > > "Mindfulness of in-&-out breathing, when developed & pursued, is of > great fruit, of great benefit. Mindfulness of in-&-out breathing, > when developed & pursued, brings the four frames of reference to > their culmination. ..." > > let me ask you the following questions: > > Is mindfulness of in-&-out breathing, when developed & pursued, of > great fruit, of great benefit? > > Does mindfulness of in-&-out breathing, when developed & pursued, > bring the four frames of reference to their culmination? > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > In your last post you asked me to give my understanding of the > passage from which your present questions are taken, and I did that. > > I doubt that the questions now being asked cover any ground that was > not covered in that last request, but here goes anyway. > > I would say that a qualified 'yes' applies to each of your questions, > that is, 'Yes, but only in the sense and to the extent implicit in > the passage (i.e., as I understand the passage, as already > explained)'. > > Was there anything in my last post that you would like to comment on? > > > Jon 33138 From: Date: Wed May 19, 2004 4:32am Subject: Re: [dsg] (was:Do or not do something) In a message dated 5/17/04 6:02:20 PM Pacific Daylight Time, seisen_@h... writes: My understanding on this would be that "Tadanganibbuto" is a temporary quenching (nibbuto) of the defilements at a moment of insight/vipassana/satipatthana. And this could possibly happen many times a week or while listening to Mozart or watching a sunset as Buddhadasa Bhikhhu says. It seems `Nibbuto' is being used in the sense of quenched, and is not referring to the unconditioned Nibbana dhatu. ===== Steven, Yes, that is my understanding. Tadanganibbuto does depend upon conditions. One leaves this mental state when conditions change. In true nibbana, one is without the defilements no matter what the conditions. In a sense this deconstructs nibbana into an unconditioned aspect and a undefiled, non suffering aspect. Samuccheda nibanna which we would call nibanna consists of both aspects. Tadanga nibbanna and vikkhambhana nibanna have just the second aspect. >>I'm not sure how Buddhadasa Bhikhhus "natural state of mind" fits in with this though.<< === He has an interesting slant on the Cycle of Dependent Origination (DO). He states that every moment we have a clear, calm, undefiled mind (I think he would call this natural mind) but then we screw it up by making the wrong choices in DO and end up with with suffering. jack 33139 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed May 19, 2004 10:57am Subject: Re: [dsg] Philip, Dhammasangani and war on web Dear Philip, op 18-05-2004 23:51 schreef Philip op plnao@j...: Where had the wholesome reflections gone in a few short > minutes! They were swept away by my conditioned patterns of thinking. > I leaned from this - and it is hardly deeply accumulated akusala from > another life. Just crud from a few short years ago! :) N: Latent tendencies condition them, but more is added to these when akusala citta actually arises. I like your observation of having more understanding of others' behaviour when considering latent tendencies. It can condition patience, but patience is hard at times. I better consider my own latent tendencies! We talk about latent tendencies, but there is much more to it. Let me quote what I wrote before about this subject: > N: >Only lokuttara citta can eradicate >> latent tendencies. But we can develop more understanding, we can > learn that >> kusala citta as well as akusala citta are conditioned. What has > happened has >> happened and it is of no use to have regret, then you only > accumulate more >> aversion. > > Ph: Isn't there some place for regret? Isn't a sense of shame > considered one of the wholesome kusala? That doesn't apply to regret? N: We use here words that can have different meanings as we use them in conventional language. Sense of shame: this is kusala when it accompanies kusala citta and abhors akusala. When we read shame, abhor, in the Abhidhamma this does not have the same meaning as in conventional language. With the wholesome shame here is no aversion, no unpleasant feeling. It is a sobhana (beautiful) cetasika, hiri. Hiri, moral shame and ottappa, fear of blame, accompany each kusala citta and they keep one from akusala. As to regret: we have to know first whether it arises with kusala citta or akusala citta. The monk has to confess his transgressions and this helps him and reminds him to be more watchful in the future. We can call this a wholesome remorse or repentance, and there is no aversion or unpleasant feeling with it. There is an akusala cetasika regret: kukkucca. It is translated as regret or worry. It arises with a citta rooted in aversion and is accompanied by unpleasant feeling. Its proximate cause are the kusala one omitted or the akusala one committed. We can see the disadvantage of worrying about the kusala we did not perform and the akusala we did in the past. It does not bring any good, it causes more aversion, and this is added to the latent tendency of aversion. The Abhidhamma is very precise, very practical and realistic. Ph: In the passages I posted from "Deeds of Merit" K Sujin talked about > the benefits of reflecting on our wholesome deeds. Wouldn't there be > similar benefit to reflecting on our unwholesome deed? I can see > there could be attachment in the former and aversion in the latter - > but could it not also condition the arising of samvega. It seems > that samvega- a sense of urgency- comes from sensing the way the > house is burning. Perhaps regrets at our own behaviour would make > this samvega very clear. N: If we reflect with wise attention, yes. Seeing the benefit of the Path leading to the end of defilements. > N:> the Expositor (p. 100): > > Ph: I haven't been able to understand this passage yet but it has > been conditioned for future understanding :) N: Can I help elaborating on the wording?? What was difficult to understand? Ph: At this point in my understanding it seems > that attachment to dhamma discussion is a wholesome thing that > inevitably leads us to deeper understanding and therefore panna and > release from attachment. N: It is natural that attachment arises in between kusala cittas with understanding. We cannot catch all those moments. But, we cannot say that it is attachment itself that leads to more understanding. Attachment leads to more attachment. We have to know the right cause for the right result. > N :> Once in the U.S.A. I heard a teacher say that most people live > under the >> standard of their capacities, thus, everybody could do so much more > than >> they actually do. This impressed me, I have always remembered this. > > Ph: Now I will too :) N: When I had written this I had second thoughts: it could be too pushy. Also: we have to remember that there is no self who could try to do more. And it could also lead to conceit: I can do better, I want to be on a higher level. It all depends on the citta, because such words can also be a condition for the pupils not to be lazy. Just like the Buddha said: have energy, be courageous, do not be negectful. Ph: I have an inkling that working on defilements and hindrances will > unleash a more productive Phil, just as it releases more metta and > other beautiful cetasikas. But no expecations. N: Instead of working on defilements, I would rather stress: having more understanding of them. The Buddha stressed: comprehension. > p.s this goes without saying, Nina, but as you are so busy please > don't feel any obligation to respond to this. Well, perhaps only the > question about regret, if you have a moment. N: Do not worry. It is a pleasure and helps me too to consider more. I had to interrupt my series on Latent Tendencies (because of my Report on Thailand) but was reminded by your post to take them up again. Nina. 33140 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed May 19, 2004 10:57am Subject: Perseverance in Dhamma, I, no 3 Perseverance in Dhamma, I, no 3 Once a month on Saturday Kunying Nopparath offers great hospitality at her house for many hours of Dhamma discussion and a luncheon. This time when Lodewijk and I attended this session the subject was the ³Discourse on the Manifold Elements² (Middle length Sayings, no 115, P.T.S.edition). When the Buddha was staying near Såvatthí in the Jeta Grove, he said to the monks: ³Whatever fears arise, monks, all arise for the fool, not the wise man. Whatever troubles arise, all arise for the fool, not the wise man. Whatever misfortunes arise, all arise for the fool, not the wise man.² Further on we read: ³Wherefore, monks, thinking, ŒInvestigating, we will become wise,¹ this is how you must train yourselves, monks.² When this had been said, the venerable Ånanda spoke thus to the Lord: ³What is the stage at which it suffices to say, revered sir: ŒInvestigating, the monks is wise?¹ ² The Buddha then explained about the elements classified in different ways, about the sense-fields (åyatanas), the Dependent origination, the (causally) possible and impossible. When Ånanda asked him how the monk was skilled in the elements the Buddha first spoke about the elements as eighteenfold. We read: ³There are these eighteen elements, Ånanda: the element of eye, the element of material shape, the element of visual consciousness; the element of ear, the element of sound, the element of auditory consciousness; the element of nose, the element of smell, the element of olfactory consciousness; the element of tongue, the element of taste, the element of gustatory consciousness; the element of body, the element of touch, the element of bodily consciousness; the element of mind, the element of mental states, the element of mental consciousness. When, Ånanda, he knows and sees these eighteen elements, it is at this stage that it suffices to say, ŒThe monk is skilled in the elements.¹ ² All that is real is included in these eighteen elements. In dependence on the sense objects and sense bases arise the sense-cognitions. We then read about the element of mind (mano dhåtu), which includes the five-sense-door adverting-consciousness (the first citta in a sense-door process), the receiving-consciousness (vipåkacitta, arising in a process after the sense-cognition of seeing. etc) and the determining-consciousness (votthapana, arising in a sense-door process just before the javana-cittas that are kusala or akusala). As to the element of ³mental states² (dhamma dhåtu), these are the dhammas that are experienced through the mind-door: all rúpas other than the sense objects, cittas, cetasikas and nibbåna. As to the element of mental consciousness (manoviññåna dhåtu), this includes all cittas, except the five sense-cognitions and the three kinds of cittas classified as mind-element. It includes cittas experiencing an object through six doors as well as door-freed cittas, cittas not arising in processes, namely, rebirth-consciousness, bhavanga-cittas [1] and dying-consciousness. All these elements are realities of our daily life. They arise all the time but we do not realize that they are elements, devoid of self. **** Footnote: 1. Bhavanga-citta or life-continuum arises in between the processes of cittas and also when we are in deep sleep and not dreaming. It arises throughout life and its function is keeping the continuity in the life of an individual. It is of the same type of citta as the rebirth-consciousness. **** Nina 33141 From: christine_forsyth Date: Wed May 19, 2004 0:10pm Subject: PHOTOS in Album Hello Everyone (and Pagare), I was browsing the photo albums and discovered that Pagare had posted his photo in the Members Album. Welcome Pagare! Lovely to see you in there with the rest of us.If you have the time and would care to write a few words and tell us a little about yourself, that would be great! There are now 72 photos of us all in this particular Album, and more of us in the 'Significant Others and Family Album' and the 'Meetings Album'. Those mambers not so used to computers can click on the link below - then click on the little yellow suitcase in which each album is stored - then click on the tiny photo to enlarge it. Why not have a look, see what your fellow members look like - it adds a new dimension to discussion. http://photos.groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/lst And those members who have always been meaning to put a photo in the album (yes, I do mean you), but have just never got around to it - please consider doing it now. Ask on or off list if you don't quite know how to do it - always plenty of willing advisors here.:-) We'd all love to see you! The albums remind me of the metta sutta ... "Whatever breathing beings there may be. No matter whether they are frail or firm, With none excepted, be they long or big Or middle-sized, or be they short or small Or thick, as well as those seen or unseen, Or whether they are dwelling far or near" .... we're all here in the dsg photo album! Come and join us! metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- 33142 From: icarofranca Date: Wed May 19, 2004 2:16pm Subject: Re: PHOTOS in Album Dear Chris: ...days becoming warmer, love is in the air... At Cambrigde more Fractured Fairy Tales are coming to life! Clever boys and girls run one each other at the traditional Speed Dates at the begining of term. The May Balls, the blue sky, the punting at Cam River. The Quest for Paradise... and the best bops at Gonville & Caius College! Meanwhile... > And those members who have always been meaning to put a photo in the > album (yes, I do mean you),> NO!!! COUNT VORGA!!! NO!!! COUNT VORGA!!!! Indeed... all of us, Noble bunch of Dhamma practicioners are needing of some mental culture! (Just Kidding, Chris... hee hee hee hee!!!) Mettaya, Ícaro > "Whatever breathing beings there may be. > No matter whether they are frail or firm, > With none excepted, be they long or big > Or middle-sized, or be they short or small > Or thick, as well as those seen or unseen, > Or whether they are dwelling far or near" > > .... we're all here in the dsg photo album! Come and join us! > > metta and peace, > Christine > ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- 33143 From: christine_forsyth Date: Wed May 19, 2004 2:25pm Subject: Re: PHOTOS in Album Dear Icaro, A sudden thought occurred to me: "I wonder if Icaro is drinking enough Chamomile tea?" :-) :-) What is this about Cambridge and Fractured Fairy Tales and Speed Dates? Did I miss an important post? :-) cheers, Chris --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "icarofranca" wrote: > Dear Chris: > > > ...days becoming warmer, love is in the air... > At Cambrigde more Fractured Fairy Tales are coming to life! > Clever boys and girls run one each other at the traditional Speed > Dates at the begining of term. > The May Balls, the blue sky, the punting at Cam River. > The Quest for Paradise... and the best bops at Gonville & Caius > College! > > Meanwhile... > > > > And those members who have always been meaning to put a photo in > the > > album (yes, I do mean you),> > > > NO!!! COUNT VORGA!!! > NO!!! COUNT VORGA!!!! > > Indeed... all of us, Noble bunch of Dhamma practicioners are > needing of some mental culture! > > (Just Kidding, Chris... hee hee hee hee!!!) > > Mettaya, Ícaro > > "Whatever breathing beings there may be. > > No matter whether they are frail or firm, > > With none excepted, be they long or big > > Or middle-sized, or be they short or small > > Or thick, as well as those seen or unseen, > > Or whether they are dwelling far or near" > > > > .... we're all here in the dsg photo album! Come and join us! > > > > metta and peace, > > Christine > > ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- 33144 From: buddhatrue Date: Wed May 19, 2004 3:00pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Quiet James --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "icarofranca" wrote: > Dear Howard! > > > It's good to hear you, "quiet James"! > > > > With metta, > > Noisy Howard > > ------------------------------------------------------------------- -- > > Ah!!! > The weather is getting warm and love is in the air (!?)...meet your > perfect match in the acclaimed 3-minute time trials! > Have you all ever heard about Speed Dating ? > It's a clever tradition on Cambridge, even for Noble Dhamma > Students as ours!!! > (It's also reminding me the old cartoon "Fracturated Fairy Tales, > narrated by Edward Everett Horton") > > Mettaya, Ícaro (hee hee hee hee...) Friend Icaro, Hmmm…this is a very weird post! I catch the hint of an insult, but I am not quite sure. Let me see if I can copy your sense of humor here: Hey Icaro, by the way, why aren't you off killing anyone lately??? Have you run out of bullets?? Maybe you can be like Rocky and Bull Winkle in the "Fractured Fairy Tales" and go see the Professor to learn how to make some more? ;-)) Metta, James 33145 From: Andrew Date: Wed May 19, 2004 3:49pm Subject: Re: The Practical View of Anatta & Technical Aspects of Stream Entry --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Suravira" wrote: > Andrew, because of your earnest inquiries, what follows is an > extract of one of my TV scripts - one that focuses on anatta > (copyright is retained by the show's producer) - it is offered for > your consideration: > > ... Dear Suravira Thank you for posting the extract from your TV script. It is full of detail and clearly the product of much effort and thought. I will study it carefully and post any remarks/queries that I think may be of benefit. Don't hold your breath, though, as I am a bit of a slow responder! Best wishes Andrew 33146 From: robmoult Date: Wed May 19, 2004 4:49pm Subject: Re: The Practical View of Anatta & Technical Aspects of Stream Entry Hi Suravira, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Suravira" wrote: > Andrew, because of your earnest inquiries, what follows is an > extract of one of my TV scripts - one that focuses on anatta > (copyright is retained by the show's producer) - it is offered for > your consideration: > > ... ===== I found your script extract to be fascinating. I would like to read more. When will your scripts be available at your website? What texts can I read to learn more about anusaya, pariyutthana and vãtikkama? Metta, Rob M :-) 33147 From: Philip Date: Wed May 19, 2004 6:09pm Subject: Akusala Rising and Devouring the World!!! Hello all This post was intended to share some more passages from "Deeds of Merit" but after the initial question I asked it turned into a bit of a pessimistic ramble about the way I am seeing the world now because of my beginner's understanding about rupa and nama. If anyone would like to add their thoughts on this, and perhaps help me with the question at the beginning, I'd be very grateful. The "S" below is of course Acharn Sujin from the book "Deeds of Merit" but she only makes a brief appearance before I begin to ramble! :) *** S. : For someone who knows what kusala is, kusala citta has the opportunity to arise more often than for someone who does not know what kusala is. Ph: This is very interesting but difficult to understand. If I know what kusala is, I can recognize it when it arises. I guess I can see that. But because I know what kusala is, it has the opportunity to arise more often??@ This I don?ft understand. It makes it sound as if I could cause kusala to arise, based on my knowledge of what it is, and certainly that isn?ft the case. Could anyone (maybe other than Nina- I feel I am pestering her too much these days!) help me understand the above idea? And is the converse true? That for someone who knows what akusala is, it arises less often? S: Realities which often arise are stronger than those which seldom arise. Ph: I wonder what ?gstronger?h means here. I will want to think about what this sentence means. Stronger as in clearer and easier to recognize? Or stronger as in having more of an impact in the sense of conditioning more of same? I have read that akusala arise more often than kusala. So if that is the case, based on the above, it is akusala cittas that are gaining strength rather than kusala ones. It makes it sound like we are on a downward spiral and that humanity is inevitably become less enlightened rather than more. I have read that there will come a day when the Buddha?fs teaching completely disappears from the world and that this will set the stage for the eventual reappearance of another Buddha. (?Is this right?) I would rather believe that the benefits of the Dhamma are clear on a fairly helpful intellectual level even to newcomers, and that this will lead to the elimination of crude defilements on a global scale, that we will see through our grossest evils and that the world will become more enlightened. But there is not much evidence for that being the case. Akusala rise more often than kusala, and realities which often arise are stronger. Things are spinning out of control, the center is falling apart like in that Yeats poem. The house is burning, and can?f t be extinguished. That?fs what this feels like to me. In the morning, when I do my simple meditation, there is a point towards the end when I see my world, the park where I walk, the train I ride, the classroom where I teach, and kind of contemplate the energy going on there, in ideal terms. When I first joined this group, I spoke of a ?gmetta ripple effect?h and quoted ?ga thousand candles can be lit with a single flame.?h These were notions based on the idea that we can have a deeply beneficial effect on others through the practice of Metta. Now, with my basic intellectual understanding of rupa and nama and conditions, I see the world and people as kind of ?cwhat?fs the word?cwell, burning with this constant rising and falling of rupa and nama, most of which is akusala. My belief in being able to help others through teaching has been shaken. I can condition people to have a laugh and a warm feeling and some calm and possibly courage for a few moments, but then other conditions will inevitably take over and any good I?fve done will be swept away by rising and falling rupa and nama, and the majority of citta will be akusala rather than kusala. I am not in a position to teach people about Dhamma, and an English conversation classroom is not the place to do it even if I had the ability to do so. When I lead conversations, all I am doing is encouraging people to rake up more dosa and lobha, because in order to have a "good" conversation, I have to encourage people to talk about what they like and dislike, I have to force the issue to bring the language out from reticent people. So I am doing a disservice to them, in a deeper sense, even though we may have fun at the time. Realizing this in not a crisis for me, but I will have to think about how to encourage students to bring out their wisdom about the futility of liking and disliking things, and shopping, and maybe even Disneyland or the Cambridge dating time trials in which young lovers?chey! where did that come from?!?!? OK, I have rambled a bit. I think before continuing posting passages from ?gDeeds of Merit?h I will return to the book on Metta (I have only read Chapter One) and post passages from that because I am obviously confused about Metta now. Metta, Phil 33148 From: connie Date: Wed May 19, 2004 3:45pm Subject: iddhipada mp3's/James Hi Quiet James, There's a relatively new (April '04) series of 5 mp3's on (meditation and) the iddhipadas at http://www.audiodharma.org/talks/ThanissaroBhikkhu.html. One of them mentions your still pond and there are some amusing stories about psychic powers. The written study guide hasn't made it's way onto ATI yet. peace, connie 33149 From: kenhowardau Date: Thu May 20, 2004 0:28am Subject: Formal Sitting or Natural Arising? (was: Re: Video Games?) Hi Sukin, You wrote to Rob Ep: -------------- > And this is why I think, many during the Buddha's time > got enlightened on the spot while listening to the Buddha. Besides, often > what also happens is kusala `listening' (Ken H. is this what you mean?) > conditioned by strong Saddha in the Teachings. -------------- At the time, I was theorising on why `listening, studying and associating with the wise' are factors of pariyatti leading to mundane insight (patipatti) while formal practice (concentration on concepts of reality) is not. Not that it needs any theorising -- to me it seems obvious. But even so, I simply theorised that the Dhamma is a teaching; the Buddha's role is to teach and our role is to listen. This won't convince anyone, of course; the obvious rejoinder is, `and then we try to put what we have learnt into practice!' The fact remains that the Buddha did not list formal practice as one of the factors of pariyatti. Naturally, having had this brought to our attention, we discontinue our stylised vipassana meditation and concentrate on study. Or so one might think. Why is it not always the case? Changing the subject slightly, thanks for reporting back on your conversation with K Sujin (about possible weak levels of insight during Dhamma study). I think I follow what you have said. Like you, I won't be struggling after a definite answer. Excessive effort has never been one of my failings. :-) Kind regards, Ken H PS: Commiserations on the loss of that molar. Take good care of the rest of them. 33150 From: Sarah Date: Thu May 20, 2004 1:16am Subject: Re: [dsg] (was:Do or not do something) Hi Jack (Howard & All), --- Jackhat1@a... wrote: > He has an interesting slant on the Cycle of Dependent Origination (DO). > He > states that every moment we have a clear, calm, undefiled mind (I think > he would > call this natural mind) but then we screw it up by making the wrong > choices > in DO and end up with with suffering. .... I think it’s suffering from start to finish. As there have been other threads on the meaning of suffering with Howard and others too,let me use this post to include some more references on the meaning of suffering, especially the First Noble Truth which refers to the ‘suffering in formations’ in the first extract, showing again that All formations are suffering. All extracts are from Sammohavinodani (transl as Dispeller of Delusion, PTS, Classification of the Truths). (Any * are mine for emphasis) 447: “Herein, bodily and mental painful feeling are called ‘suffering as suffering’ because of their individual essence, because of their name and because of painfulness. [Bodily and mental] pleasant feeling are called ‘suffering in change’ because of being the cause of the arising of pain through their change. Indifferent feeling and the remaining formations of the three planes are called ‘suffering in formations’ because of being oppressed by rise and fall. *But there is likewise oppression even in the paths and fruitions, therefore these states should be understood to be called ‘suffering of the formations’, by their being included in the Truth of Suffering.*” ***** Some graphic metaphors: 432 “...The Truth of Suffering should be regarded as a burden, the Truth of Origin as the taking up of the burden, the Truth of Cessation as the putting down of the burden and the Truth of the Path as the means for putting down the burden (see S iii 25). And the Truth of Suffering is like a disease, the Truth of Origin is like the cause of the disease, the Truth of Cessation is like the cure of the disease and the Truth of the Path is like the medicine. Or the Truth of Suffering is like a famine, the Truth of Origin is like a drought, the Truth of Cessation is like plenty and the Truth of the Path is like timely rain. “Furthermore these truths should be understood as to simile by applying the following: the enemy, the cause of enmity, the abolition of the enmity and the means to abolish the enmity; the poson tree, the tree’s root, the cutting of the root and the means to cut the root; fear, the cause of fear, freedom from fear and the means to attain it; the hither bank, the great flood, the further shore and the effort to reach it. Thus should the definition be understood here ‘as to simile’.” ***** 445 “And the first two [Truths] are similar because they are profound because hard to grasp, since they are mundane and since they are accompanied by cankers” 444 “All the truths are similar to each other because they are not untrue, are void of self and are difficult to penetrate, according as it is said: ‘What do you think, Ananda, which is more difficult to do, the more difficult to perform, that one should shoot an arrow through a narrow keyhole from a distance time after time without missing, or that one should penetrate the tip of a hair split a hundred times with the tip [of a similar hair]?’ ‘This, venerable sir, is the more difficult to do, the more difficult to perform: that one should penetrate the tip of a hair split a hundred times with the tip [of a similar hair].’ ‘A more difficult thing to penetrate than that, Ananda, do they penetrate who penetrate correctly thus: ‘This is the way leading to the cessation of suffering’ “(S v 454).” ***** Earlier we also discussed birth, old age and death as included in the Truth: ‘Birth is suffering, old age is suffering, death is suffering..........briefly, the five factors of attachment are suffering.’ I think the following helps to clarify what is meant: 456 “Now ‘meaning of suffering in birth should be understood’...: for this birth is not itself suffering. *But by being the basis for the arising of suffering it is called suffering.* But of what suffering is it the basis? The suffering of the states of woe made evident by the Blessed One by means of simile in such places as the Baalapa.n.ditasutta (M iii 165 ff), *and the suffering which arises in a state of bliss* [and] in the human world, and is classed as rooted in the descent into the womb, etc in the human world - it is the basis for all that.” ***** 473 “ ‘The meaning of suffering in old age should be understood’. *But here this is not itself suffering. But it is called suffering as being the basis for suffering*. For what suffering? For both bodily suffering and for the suffering of grief. For the person of one who is aged is weak like an aged cart. Great suffering arises in one struggling to stand or to walk or to sit; grief arises in one when his wife and children are not as considerate as before. Thus it should be understood as suffering through being the basis for these two kinds of suffering.” ***** 480 “ ‘The meaning of suffering of death should be understood’; *but here this too is not itself suffering; but it is called suffering through being the basis for suffering*. The feelings belonging to the physical body which end in death burn the physical body like a lighted grass torch held against the wind. At the time of the appearance of the sign of hell, etc, great grief arises. Accordingly it should be understood as suffering through being the basis of these two kinds of suffering.” ***** Birth, Old Age and Death 482 “Furthermore these, namely, birth, ageing and death, are like murderous enemies who go about seeking an opportunity........” 483 “Furthermore, the suffering of birth should be regarded as the entry into a great wilderness full of dangers; the suffering of ageing should be regarded as the weakness of one who is deprived of food and drink there; the suffering of death should be regarded as the accomplishment of his ruin and disaster by wild beasts, etc, when he is weak and is struck down and attacked while changing his posture.” ***** Comments very welcome. Metta, Sarah ======= 33151 From: Sarah Date: Thu May 20, 2004 1:37am Subject: 'Birth is suffering, old age is suffering, death is suffering....' Dear All, I’d like to include the verse here which would have made the other post too long. Again, all extracts are from Sammohavinodani (transl as Dispeller of Delusion, PTS, Classification of the Truths). 456 “Now ‘meaning of suffering in birth should be understood’...: for this birth is not itself suffering. But by being the basis for the arising of suffering it is called suffering. But of what suffering is it the basis? The suffering of the states of woe made evident by the Blessed One by means of simile in such places as the Baalapa.n.ditasutta (M iii 165 ff), and the suffering which arises in a state of bliss [and] in the human world, and is classed as rooted in the descent into the womb, etc in the human world - it is the basis for all that.” 464 “Hence this is said: ‘If no being were born into the hells The pain unbearable of burning fires And all the rest, where would it find a footing? So birth is what the Sage here says is ‘pain’ [dukkha]. Animals suffer many kinds of pain Through being flogged with whips and goads and sticks; Yet, without birth among them, how should pain There come to be? Birth therefore is pain. Among the Petas pain is manifold Through hunger, thirst, wind, sun and what not too; But since for one not born there this is not, Painful is birth, the Sage has therefore said. In the world-interspace intensely dark, Intolerably cold, among the demons Is pain that would not be were there no birth there; So, whence this birth thence there comes pain as well. And the frightful pain a being feels on coming out After he has dwelt for long within the mother’s womb, That’s like the hell of excrement - this too would not exist Were there no birth. Accordingly this birth is suffering’.” ***** 473 “ ‘The meaning of suffering in old age should be understood’. But here this is not itself suffering. But it is called suffering as being the basis for suffering. For what suffering? For both bodily suffering and for the suffering of grief. For the person of one who is aged is weak like an aged cart. Great suffering arises in one struggling to stand or to walk or to sit; grief arises in one when his wife and children are not as considerate as before. Thus it should be understood as suffering through being the basis for these two kinds of suffering.” 474 “Furthermore: “’With leadenness in all one’s limbs, with all one’s faculties declining, With vanishing of youthfulness, with undermining of one’s strength, With loss of memory, and so on, with growing unattractiveness To one’s own wife and family, and then with dotage coming on, The pain that mortals undergo, alike of body and of mind - Since ageing causes all of this, old age is thus called suffering’. “ ***** 480 “ ‘The meaning of suffering of death should be understood’; but here this too is not itself suffering; but it is called suffering through being the basis for suffering. The feelings belonging to the physical body which end in death burn the physical body like a lighted grass torch held against the wind. At the time of the appearance of the sign of hell, etc, great grief arises. Accordingly it should be understood as suffering through being the basis of these two kinds of suffering.” 481 “Furthermore: ‘The mental pain that comes alike without distinction when they die, To evil men who see the sign of evil deeds etcetera, And to good men who cannot bear to part from what is dear to them, And then the pain born of the body, which severs joints and sinews, bonds and so on, Unbearable, with no relief, that comes alike to all whose vitals Death attacks - since death itself is basis for this suffering. Herein resides the reason wherefore death is known as suffering’.” ***** Birth, Old Age and Death 482 “Furthermore these, namely, birth, ageing and death, are like murderous enemies who go about seeking an opportunity........” 483 “Furthermore, the suffering of birth should be regarded as the entry into a great wilderness full of dangers; the suffering of ageing should be regarded as the weakness of one who is deprived of food and drink there; the suffering of death should be regarded as the accomplishment of his ruin and disaster by wild beasts, etc, when he is weak and is struck down and attacked while changing his posture.” ***** Metta, Sarah ======= 33152 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu May 20, 2004 1:46am Subject: Re: [dsg] Phil. Akusala Devouring the World!!! Dear Philip, I feel responsible to clarify more if people misunderstand what A. S. wrote or what I wrote about Abhidhamma. Let me try to reassure you. op 20-05-2004 03:09 schreef Philip op plnao@j...: > > S. : For someone who knows what kusala is, kusala citta has the > opportunity to arise more often than for someone who does not know > what kusala is. > > Ph: This is very interesting but difficult to understand. If I know > what kusala is, I can recognize it when it arises. I guess I can see > that. But because I know what kusala is, it has the opportunity to > arise more often??@ This I don?ft understand. It makes it sound as if > I could cause kusala to arise, based on my knowledge of what it is, > and certainly that isn?ft the case. N: Through the Abhidhamma we learn more in detail what kusala is and what akusala. We learn now that what we used to take for kusala may be akusala. Didn't we confuse attachment with pleasant feeling and pure kusala with pleasant feeling? We also learn about the processes of citta and how quickly they arise and fall away. We begin to understand that kusala and akusala can arise closely one after the other. We cannot catch such moments, only insight can know them directly. But anyway, we learn more about kusala and akusala on the level of intellectual understanding. An example from Lodewijk: he came from my father and was driving home, considering how much he clings to it to be liked by others. He thought there was a lot of conceit involved with his helping. Others would think, "He does it all so well." He was distressed and told me so. I applauded, saying: "This is wonderful, this is right understanding. The fact that you understand is very good." He was reassured. But he also at times has this feeling: "When it is all so difficult, so much study needed for so many aeons, it is hopeless." But this thought only arises for a moment. Mind you, right understanding itself is kusala, it is always accompanied by non-attachment, alobha and non-aversion, adosa. Just now I had a Dhamma talk with Lodewijk while walking in the parc. He said: When you read about the latent tendencies you may have felt distressed. No, understanding the conditions for akusala will help us to be less cramped about it, less distressed. We can be realistic about akusala. There can be a balance in our life, and this is the Middle Way. We know akusala is conditioned, and on the other hand there are so many possibilities for all kinds of kusala, including the development of right understanbding. No need to be passive and sit still. Knowing about the many ways of kusala helps. Also when one does not have much money there are other ways of giving. Appreciating other people's kusala. Then there is no jealousy. I learnt this from my Thai friends, it fits very well with the Thai culture. Or, sparing a life, saving an insect. it is a kind of generosity, you give another being the opportunity to live unharmed. Ph: And is the converse true? That for someone who knows what akusala > is, it arises less often? N: There can be more understanding so that you will be less inclined to take it for self. First the wrong view of self has to be eradicated. Only after that the other defilements can be eradicated. When we take akusala for my akusala we get further down the spiral: O my akusala, how bad, and there will be lots of self reproach. > S: Realities which often arise are stronger than those which > seldom arise. N: They are accumulated as latent tendencies and these are strong and powerful. No need to become distressed. Without the Abhidhamma we would not know about them. Let us be grateful to the Buddha. We should have joy and enthusiasm when learning more. More understanding of kusala and akusala will by itself a condition for you to help others more effectively. No need to worry about this. No need to think with worry: what shall I do to help the world. I heard before about people who began to study Abhidhamma and were distressed when they discovered that they had much more akusala than they ever thought. But see what I said to Lodewijk. Do not feel you have to read or post from wholesome deeds. Just let it depend on your inclinations. Nina. 33153 From: Sarah Date: Thu May 20, 2004 2:04am Subject: Re: [dsg] re: Global chaos or a cup of tea Hi Phil, Just a few brief comments here - --- Philip wrote: > > Ph: I guess I just sense it is an inevitable fiction, for the time > being. ... S: bound to be, but better to know it for what it is.... .... >I remember when you once said to someone in a thread words to > the effect that you are not even able to imagine there being a self, > or conceive of it, or something like that. You have gotten to that > point of understanding. .... S: ?? :-/ .... >For me, I am still so wrapped up in wrong > self that I can only begin to understand that self is not. I know the > idea of creating a fiction about self is wrong and dangerous, so I > won't do it. ... S: Until the stage of the sotapanna has been reached, fiction about self is bound to arise by conditions. One moment there can be understanding of hardness or temperature experienced (no fiction of self) and the next moment there can be the fiction about ‘my experience’ or ‘my rupas’. .... >The Buddha's teaching and discussion with people who > have right understanding will continue to help right understanding to > gradually arise in me. .... S: I appreciate your confidence in the teachings and particularly your way of consideration and questioning and putting aside those aspects which are not helpful for now. Thanks again for sharing and encouraging others too. .... > Another problem for me is that I find myself in a situation in > which if I want to pursue a career in writing here, a public personna > will be necessary. I will be playing the role of the friendly- > looking, Japanese speaking foreign children's book writer. ... S: I don’t see any of this as a problem in itself. There is no rule which says that in developing insight one cannot have a ‘public persona’ or earning a living or marketing a ’friendly- looking, Japanese speaking foreign children's book writer.’ Even if you become the next J.K.Rowling and re marketed round the world, the realities such as seeing and visible object remain the same to be known. No conflict. Many of the Buddha’s lay followers who reached stages of enlightenment had very public personas like Anathapindika, Visakkha and so on. .... This > personna will be created that will make it even harder for me to be > liberated from self. Of course we all have public personnas. But > there is something about being a visible minority in the most > homogenous society on earth that makes it even harder to shake a > belief in this personna. .... S: The only real hindrance in wrong view of self whether we have a public or reclusive persona, whether living in any society or in the forest. If you were an invisible majority in Canada, the difficulty would be the same;-) .... > It will be interesting to read the posts I am writing now and the > ones I write in the years to come and see how much less self-absorbed > they will become. It is the More About Phil Show for now, but not > forever. .... ;-) We all have different tendencies and inclinations as we can see on the list - some are noisy, some are quiet. Again, there’s no rule when it comes to developing insight. .... > Ph: Thank you! I missed it. Very interesting snake. .... S [aside to you and Chris] Last night a two foot bright green local poisonous snake slithered right across the path in front of us as we took our evening walk. Jon was absorbed in Thai dhamma and I had to physically restrain him from taking a step forward. So it was good timing to reflect again on the ways of handling snakes and Dhamma;-). (Chris, the same walk we took SarahF on;-)). .... >I do believe, > however, that constant exposure *and* discussion with dhamma friends > who have right understanding will not fail to lead me away from > fictions about self. How do I know that my dhamma friends have right > understanding if I don't have right understanding yet? Well, years of > formal practice multiplied by number of Useful Posts at DSG divided > by incidents of rude speech = level of understanding seems reliable. > haha. ... ;-) Metta, Sarah p.s Keep up your extracts from whatever you’re reading with your running commentary. I enjoy both a lot. ========================= 33154 From: Sarah Date: Thu May 20, 2004 2:21am Subject: Re: [dsg] Dana & Sila TV Script 1 Hi Suravira, --- Suravira wrote: > Sarah, > > Thank you for your generous offer of submitting portions of my TV > scripts on Dana & Sila to your Dhamma Study Group. > > I have selected a extract that follows after the program series' > introduction. It lays out the general game plan for the program > series. If yaou judge its content to be unsuitable for this study > group then let me know. .... S: I read it with interest and it seems very suitable for the group and any further discussion. It’s a great project and a lot of work you’re undertaking. I’d be interested to hear breifly how it came about. With regard to the content, probably my main two reservations on this extract are: a) Dana, sila and bhavana taught as an order. It might be useful to consider a sutta in which you think these are stressed as having to be taught/developed in order. b) ‘Bhavana is a Pali word that refers to mental development; but is properly called meditation.’ You mention the ‘practice of meditation’ will be covered in another extract. As you’ll have seen here, there are many different understandings of bhavana or mental development or meditation. I’ll look forward to hearing more of your understanding in this regard. One question: will you be the narrator too? I ask out of curiosity because in the text you write ‘After studying and practicing......forty years now, I have seen....’. Thank you again for sharing these extracts. We understand they are transcripts and there needs to be repetition and also that the TV producer holds copyright and they are just put here for discussion. I'll look forward to Rob M's comments. I’ll also look forward to Andrew’s reflections on the other extract - these lawyers like to take their time to check the fine print;-) We’re lucky to have them around to keep an eye on us, I think. Metta, Sarah ===== > Dharma-vinaya > > The Buddha called the teaching he founded Dharma-vinaya, "the > doctrine and discipline." The popular term for this religion is > Buddhism; however, Buddhists call it the Dharma. > > The teachings offered by the Buddha are a gradual teaching that has > three pillars of practice: Dana, Sila and Bhavana. 33155 From: christine_forsyth Date: Thu May 20, 2004 2:23am Subject: Sotapanna Hello Sarah, and all, I'm pleased you saved Jon from the snake, or the snake from Jon.:-) Just remember the latest treatment is not to cut the bite, heroically suck the poison out and spit it on the ground - it's 'wrap the whole limb in a bandage (tightly) and get the patient to hospital asap for antivenene'. (Thought I'd tell you, just in case he's not mindful another time :-)). I came across this article with something on how the Sotapanna stage is relatively not difficult to attain. (I wonder why there seems to be different opinions on this?). You can even go to retreats in some countries where becoming a Sotapanna is an expectation after one month but is a pretty near guaranteed after three. As becoming a Sotapanna is the only way to ensure there will be no further unfortunate rebirths - I hope the "it's easier than you think" view is correct. But somehow .... metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- "Sotapanna Stage Relatively Not Difficult to Attain Anguttara Nikaya Sutta 3.9.85 states that despite having perfect morality, Ariyas can still have minor transgressions of the precepts. For instance, Samyutta Nikaya Sutta 55.3.4 mentions the demise of a Sakyan named Sarakani, after which the Buddha proclaimed that Sarakani had attained the Sotapanna stage at his death. This annoyed a number of the people as Sarakani was known to have failed in his training and had taken to drink. The people were angry because the Buddha called Sarakani a Sotapanna even though the latter had taken to drink . This seemed to indicate that they knew Sarakani was quite a heavy drinker. People found it hard to believe that he was a Sotapanna. When the Buddha was informed that many people disbelieved Sarakani attained Sotapanna, the Buddha said: "… Why, Mahanama, if these great Sal trees here could know what is spoken well and what is spoken ill, I would proclaim even these great trees to be Sotapannas … bound for enlightenment. Much more then do I proclaim Sarakani the Sakyan to be one …." This incident goes to show that the state of Sotapanna need not be as difficult to attain as many people think. The problem might be that they do not make enough effort to study the discourses, which is our best guide or teacher (as advised by the Buddha) for Right View. Majjhima Nikaya Sutta 14 tells how a cousin of the Buddha, Mahanama, came to see the Buddha and said that he had learnt the Dhamma for a long time and knew that greed, hatred and delusion were defilements. Yet, he said that sometimes he could not control his mind when it was invaded by these defilements. He asked the Buddha whether this was because there were some states that he had not abandoned internally. The Buddha replied that even if an Ariyan disciple had seen with wisdom that greed, hatred and delusion were wrong, he might still be attracted by sensual pleasures unless he had attained piti (delight) and sukha (happiness). Piti and sukha are factors of the Jhana state. Jhana may be translated as a "state of mental brightness" when the mind becomes bright because of satipatthana (intense recollection) and concentration. Unless we have attained one-pointedness of mind and experienced the bliss which is higher than sensual pleasure, we cannot help but be attracted to sensual pleasures. The commentaries state that Mahanama was already a Sakadagamin at that time. Thus, this Sutta shows that there can be Ariyans who have not attained jhana and who can be influenced by greed, hatred and delusion. Again, this proves, in this context, that the Sotapanna stage need not be as high as some people think. There is evidence in the Suttas and Vinaya that very ordinary people attained stream entry upon listening to the Dhamma for the first time. For example, in the Vinaya books (Cullavagga, Chapter 7), we find that the 31 men despatched to murder the Buddha all attained stream entry when the Buddha preached to them. On another occasion, 120,000 inhabitants of Rajagaha attained stream entry when they heard the Buddha's discourse (Mahavagga, Chapter 1)." http://vbgnet.org/vbgnet/resource/articles/art2.asp#A13 33156 From: htootintnaing Date: Thu May 20, 2004 4:31am Subject: Re: Sotapanna --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Hello Sarah, and all, ..For example, in the Vinaya books (Cullavagga, Chapter 7), we > find that the 31 men despatched to murder the Buddha all attained > stream entry when the Buddha preached to them. On another occasion, > 120,000 inhabitants of Rajagaha attained stream entry when they > heard the Buddha's discourse (Mahavagga, Chapter 1)." > http://vbgnet.org/vbgnet/resource/articles/art2.asp#A13 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Christine, Sarah and All, I just remember those 31 men who were despatched to murder the Buddha. I think that was the very first attempt that Devadattha tried to kill the Buddha. The second attempt was letting the elephant Nalagiri kill the Buddha. The third attempt was done on his own by dislodging a huge stone from the top of a mountain, the event of which caused brusing of the Buddha's big toe. The first was Devadattha delegated a man to kill the Buddha. The killer was an archor. He tried to kill the Buddha but the arrow did not go to the Buddha from the bow and he even could not move. The Buddha was in Metta Jhana. Devadattha sent further two archor to kill the first archor so that the link would cut up who killed the Buddha. When the first man was pointing his arrow at the Buddha, the second-going two archors were pointing his arrow at the first man. Devattha then sent further 4 archors to kill 2 archors. He sent further 8 archors to kill 4 and further 16 archors to kill the 8 archors. So there were 16 + 8 + 4 + 2 + 1 = 31 archors. At that time the Buddha was in Metta Jhana. After preaching Dhamma all these 31 archors or killers became sotapams. Just thinking. With Metta, Htoo Naing 33157 From: Date: Thu May 20, 2004 2:07am Subject: Re: [dsg] (was:Do or not do something) Hi, Sarah (and Jack) - In a message dated 5/20/04 4:41:33 AM Eastern Daylight Time, sarahdhhk@y... writes: > Earlier we also discussed birth, old age and death as included in the > Truth: ‘Birth is suffering, old age is suffering, death is > suffering..........briefly, the five factors of attachment are suffering.’ > I think the following helps to clarify what is meant: > > 456 “Now ‘meaning of suffering in birth should be understood’...: for this > birth is not itself suffering. *But by being the basis for the arising of > suffering it is called suffering.* But of what suffering is it the basis? > The suffering of the states of woe made evident by the Blessed One by > means of simile in such places as the Baalapa.n.ditasutta (M iii 165 ff), > *and the suffering which arises in a state of bliss* [and] in the human > world, and is classed as rooted in the descent into the womb, etc in the > human world - it is the basis for all that.â€? > ***** > 473 “ ‘The meaning of suffering in old age should be understood’. *But > here this is not itself suffering. But it is called suffering as being > the basis for suffering*. For what suffering? For both bodily suffering > and for the suffering of grief. For the person of one who is aged is weak > like an aged cart. Great suffering arises in one struggling to stand or > to walk or to sit; grief arises in one when his wife and children are not > as considerate as before. Thus it should be understood as suffering > through being the basis for these two kinds of suffering.â€? > ***** > 480 “ ‘The meaning of suffering of death should be understood’; *but here > this too is not itself suffering; but it is called suffering through being > the basis for suffering*. The feelings belonging to the physical body > which end in death burn the physical body like a lighted grass torch held > against the wind. At the time of the appearance of the sign of hell, etc, > great grief arises. Accordingly it should be understood as suffering > through being the basis of these two kinds of suffering.â€? > ============================== These latter comments seem to give some support to my position that dhammas and collections of dhammas are said to be "dukkha" only in the sense of being a basis (a condition) for dukkha, where this latter dukkha is felt unhappiness or sorrow or distress. (Of course, other commentaries might well point in a different direction. I don't think it makes sense to let one's interpretation of the Dhamma rise and fall with each different commentarrial position encountered! ;-) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 33158 From: Htoo Naing Date: Thu May 20, 2004 6:12am Subject: Patthana Dhamma Dear Dhamma Friends, Just to let you know that there released the page 33 in patthana dhamma. I am afraid but it becomes a bit more complicated and in a few previous pages, there do not contain enough explanation in simple English. This has to be done to save the space as most have been explained in the earlier pages. I include the link to the first page. From that page onward, there will be less and less explanation as I think they have been adequately explained in the earlier pages. So far, the discussions have been on ekahetuka cittas or single-rooted consciousness and dvihetuka cittas or double-rooted consciousness and some tihetuka cittas or triple-rooted consciousness. In the next page which has been written will be on tihetuka cittas of jhana cittas and magga cittas and phala cittas. The page 33 can be viewed at http://www.geocities.com/htootintnaing/patthana33.html . In that page, the first page is linked. It will be much more easier to read starts from the first page. If there anything not clear, just put a message to discuss the matter. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 33159 From: Date: Thu May 20, 2004 3:07am Subject: Re: [dsg] (was:Do or not do something) In a message dated 5/20/04 6:12:58 AM Pacific Daylight Time, upasaka@a... writes: These latter comments seem to give some support to my position that dhammas and collections of dhammas are said to be "dukkha" only in the sense of being a basis (a condition) for dukkha, where this latter dukkha is felt unhappiness or sorrow or distress. (Of course, other commentaries might well point in a different direction. ====== All, I think the above is the only interpretation that makes sense. (Another allied interpretation is that dhammas are dukkha for a worldling but only for a worldling.) The 3rd Noble Truth says there is cessation of dukkha. This cessation of dukkha does not mean that dhammas disappear. So, dhammas can exist without dukkha. If we look at the Cycle of Dependent Origination, it does not imply that cessation means, poof, dhammas disappear. DO points to the fact that dhammas can exist without suffering if we make the right choices. It gives us a way out. jack 33160 From: icarofranca Date: Thu May 20, 2004 8:44am Subject: Re: Sotapanna Dear Chris: Ah... > > I came across this article with something on how the Sotapanna stage > is relatively not difficult to attain. (I wonder why there seems to > be different opinions on this?). ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sometimes the Mahayana doctrination makes confusion on these landmarks. You got at one side all good intentions' Rethoric, all the "Everyone has the potential to become Buddha" parlance; and the other an almost hebrew attainment to the letter of the law ( The suttas,the Pali Canon, etc). The Theravada tradition (!?) states the paramount rank of the written Pali Text and The Abhidhamma describes with clinical precision the steps one need to be a Sotapanna. ( Ah... days of wine and roses. Sorry Jon, but I cannot resist to speak about Cambridge at these ours! You must indulge on it!) --------------------------------------------------------------------- You can even go to retreats in > some countries where becoming a Sotapanna is an expectation after > one month but is a pretty near guaranteed after three. As becoming > a Sotapanna is the only way to ensure there will be no further > unfortunate rebirths - I hope the "it's easier than you think" view > is correct. But somehow .... ---------------------------------------------------------------------- It's EASIER than you think, Chris: all the Sotapana steps are fully described on Abhidhamma. The Sotapana eradicates the 1st,2nd,5th, 6th and 11th Akusala Cittas, destroying at this way the two fetters (Samyojana): Sakkayaditthi ( self-illusion) and Vicikiccha (doubts). And it's a good omen of all us to be able to get Abhidhamma's teachings easily: it's not necessary to consult old manuscripts at Oxford and Cambridge to do it (Ah! Cambridge!!!At these warm days when good boys and girls run after the Speed Dating sponsored by the Cambridge Student Union I think that it would be good to you Chris to be a Caian or a Magdalen at your next life!!!) Mettaya, Ícaro > > metta and peace, > Christine > ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- > > "Sotapanna Stage Relatively Not Difficult to Attain > > Anguttara Nikaya Sutta 3.9.85 states that despite having perfect > morality, Ariyas can still have minor transgressions of the > precepts. For instance, Samyutta Nikaya Sutta 55.3.4 mentions the > demise of a Sakyan named Sarakani, after which the Buddha proclaimed > that Sarakani had attained the Sotapanna stage at his death. This > annoyed a number of the people as Sarakani was known to have failed > in his training and had taken to drink. > The people were angry because the Buddha called Sarakani a Sotapanna > even though the latter had taken to drink . This seemed to indicate > that they knew Sarakani was quite a heavy drinker. People found it > hard to believe that he was a Sotapanna. When the Buddha was > informed that many people disbelieved Sarakani attained Sotapanna, > the Buddha said: "… Why, Mahanama, if these great Sal trees here > could know what is spoken well and what is spoken ill, I would > proclaim even these great trees to be Sotapannas … bound for > enlightenment. Much more then do I proclaim Sarakani the Sakyan to > be one …." > This incident goes to show that the state of Sotapanna need not be > as difficult to attain as many people think. The problem might be > that they do not make enough effort to study the discourses, which > is our best guide or teacher (as advised by the Buddha) for Right > View. > Majjhima Nikaya Sutta 14 tells how a cousin of the Buddha, Mahanama, > came to see the Buddha and said that he had learnt the Dhamma for a > long time and knew that greed, hatred and delusion were defilements. > Yet, he said that sometimes he could not control his mind when it > was invaded by these defilements. He asked the Buddha whether this > was because there were some states that he had not abandoned > internally. > The Buddha replied that even if an Ariyan disciple had seen with > wisdom that greed, hatred and delusion were wrong, he might still be > attracted by sensual pleasures unless he had attained piti (delight) > and sukha (happiness). Piti and sukha are factors of the Jhana > state. Jhana may be translated as a "state of mental brightness" > when the mind becomes bright because of satipatthana (intense > recollection) and concentration. > Unless we have attained one-pointedness of mind and experienced the > bliss which is higher than sensual pleasure, we cannot help but be > attracted to sensual pleasures. The commentaries state that Mahanama > was already a Sakadagamin at that time. Thus, this Sutta shows that > there can be Ariyans who have not attained jhana and who can be > influenced by greed, hatred and delusion. Again, this proves, in > this context, that the Sotapanna stage need not be as high as some > people think. > There is evidence in the Suttas and Vinaya that very ordinary people > attained stream entry upon listening to the Dhamma for the first > time. For example, in the Vinaya books (Cullavagga, Chapter 7), we > find that the 31 men despatched to murder the Buddha all attained > stream entry when the Buddha preached to them. On another occasion, > 120,000 inhabitants of Rajagaha attained stream entry when they > heard the Buddha's discourse (Mahavagga, Chapter 1)." > http://vbgnet.org/vbgnet/resource/articles/art2.asp#A13 33161 From: icarofranca Date: Thu May 20, 2004 8:53am Subject: Re: PHOTOS in Album Dear Chris: > Dear Icaro, > > A sudden thought occurred to me: "I wonder if Icaro is drinking > enough Chamomile tea?" :-) :-) --------------------------------------------------------------------- HAHAH!!! Not enough!!! I love the Blackcurrant and the earl Grey teas!!! --------------------------------------------------------------------- > > What is this about Cambridge and Fractured Fairy Tales and Speed > Dates? Did I miss an important post? :-) --------------------------------------------------------------------- Oh, nothing so special! When I was searching buddhistic resources on net, I read on Cambridge University Site about these Speed Datings sponsored by the Cambridge Student Union. Cool!!! Besides the Punting on Cam River, the bops on Gonville & Caius College and the May Balls, these Speed Dates seems to me a good idea to promote social intercourse: a boyfriend or girlfriend for three minutes only!!! (And without the Count Vorga for sure! HAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!!!) Jon & Sarah... you MUST indulge on these mundane remarks!!! --------------------------------------------------------------------- > > cheers, ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Cheers! Mettaya, Ícaro > Chris > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "icarofranca" > wrote: > > Dear Chris: > > > > > > ...days becoming warmer, love is in the air... > > At Cambrigde more Fractured Fairy Tales are coming to life! > > Clever boys and girls run one each other at the traditional > Speed > > Dates at the begining of term. > > The May Balls, the blue sky, the punting at Cam River. > > The Quest for Paradise... and the best bops at Gonville & Caius > > College! > > > > Meanwhile... > > > > > > > And those members who have always been meaning to put a photo in > > the > > > album (yes, I do mean you),> > > > > > > NO!!! COUNT VORGA!!! > > NO!!! COUNT VORGA!!!! > > > > Indeed... all of us, Noble bunch of Dhamma practicioners are > > needing of some mental culture! > > > > (Just Kidding, Chris... hee hee hee hee!!!) > > > > Mettaya, Ícaro > > > > "Whatever breathing beings there may be. > > > No matter whether they are frail or firm, > > > With none excepted, be they long or big > > > Or middle-sized, or be they short or small > > > Or thick, as well as those seen or unseen, > > > Or whether they are dwelling far or near" > > > > > > .... we're all here in the dsg photo album! Come and join us! > > > > > > metta and peace, > > > Christine > > > ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- 33162 From: icarofranca Date: Thu May 20, 2004 9:08am Subject: Re: [dsg] Quiet James Dear Robmoult > > Hmmm…this is a very weird post! I catch the hint of an insult, but > I am not quite sure. Let me see if I can copy your sense of humor > here: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- It's only a light spirit, due the May Balls on Cambridge! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Hey Icaro, by the way, why aren't you off killing anyone lately??? > Have you run out of bullets?? Maybe you can be like Rocky and Bull > Winkle in the "Fractured Fairy Tales" and go see the Professor to > learn how to make some more? ;-)) --------------------------------------------------------------------- I LOVE Rocky & Bullwinkle!!! They are cool! Aesop and Son, Improvable History, Fractured Fairy Tales, etc, At matters of social and cultural criticism they are more sharper and direct than Hanna & Barbera's cartoons!!! Mettaya, Ícaro 33163 From: icarofranca Date: Thu May 20, 2004 9:11am Subject: Re: [dsg] Quiet James Typo!!! > Dear Robmoult --------------------------------------------------------------------- It's dear James and not dear Robmoult! Please, james!! Forgive me!!! Forgive me!!! Forgive me!!! Mettaya, Ícaro 33164 From: htootintnaing Date: Thu May 20, 2004 9:33am Subject: Re: Sotapanna --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "icarofranca" wrote: It's EASIER than you think, Chris: all the Sotapana steps are fully described on Abhidhamma. The Sotapana eradicates the 1st,2nd,5th, 6th and 11th Akusala Cittas, destroying at this way the two fetters (Samyojana): Sakkayaditthi ( self-illusion) and Vicikiccha (doubts). And it's a good omen of all us to be able to get Abhidhamma's teachings easily: it's not necessary to consult old manuscripts at Oxford and Cambridge to do it (Ah! Cambridge!!!At these warm days when good boys and girls run after the Speed Dating sponsored by the Cambridge Student Union I think that it would be good to you Chris to be a Caian or a Magdalen at your next life!!!) Mettaya, Ícaro ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Icaro, Christine and All, Let me just jump in here :-). Icaro,are you sure that sotapams eradicate vicikiccha and only sakkayaditthi? Htoo Naing 33165 From: Suravira Date: Thu May 20, 2004 9:58am Subject: Re: Dana & Sila TV Script 1 Hi Sarah, > One question: will you be the narrator too? I ask out of curiosity because > in the text you write `After studying and practicing......forty years now, > I have seen....'. > [Suravira] Yes, I will be the program's talking head. I have just published the www.deerparksangh.org website. Through it you can gain access to all of the currently available transcripts of the Dana & Sila TV program (four transcripts remain to be completed). Thank you for your feedback - each point you raised was important and helpful. With metta, Suravira 33166 From: Suravira Date: Thu May 20, 2004 10:00am Subject: Re: The Practical View of Anatta & Technical Aspects of Stream Entry Hi Rob, > I found your script extract to be fascinating. I would like to read > more. When will your scripts be available at your website? What texts [Suravira] I have just published the www.deerparksangha.org website. Through it you can gain access to all of the currently available transcripts of the Dana & Sila TV program (four transcripts remain to be completed). > can I read to learn more about anusaya, pariyutthana and vãtikkama? > [Suravira] Check out the BPS site. I will search through my notes for the exact reference. With metta, Suravira 33167 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu May 20, 2004 10:41am Subject: nibbana Hi Larry, Is it right that you have B.B.'s M.N.? I think you mentioned Sutta 2. In the Intro, p. 31, B.B. gives a balanced explanation of nibbana. He says that nibbana does not easily lends itself to definitions in terms of concepts, and that the Buddha's objective was a practical one leading beings to release from suffering. So we should stress the Path, but knowing about nibbana gives us an orientation towards the goal. Sutta 2, All the Taints, here are many approaches to abandon akusala. This sutta gains so much in depth if we understand that all these ways of abandoning should be done together with satipatthana. For example, by using, or by enduring: always with right understanding of nama and rupa, since that is the Buddha's teaching. Nina. 33168 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu May 20, 2004 10:41am Subject: Perseverance in Dhamma, I, no 4 Perseverance in Dhamma, I, no 4 We read in the ³Dispeller of Delusion²(I, Ch 3, 55): about the earth element: As regards paìhavídhåtu (³earth element) and so on, the meaning of element has the meaning of ³nature² (sabhåva); and the meaning of nature has the meaning of ³voidness² (suñña); and the meaning of voidness has the meaning of ³not a being² (nissatta)... An element or paramattha dhamma has its own characteristic that cannot be changed: seeing experiences visible object, that is its nature. It arises because of its appropriate conditions and then it falls away. It is ³not a being². Seeing only sees what appears through the eyes, different from defining what we see. Hardness is a rúpa, but the experience of hardness is nåma. Sound appears, it is heard. There are sound and hearing, but there can be awareness of only one reality at a time. There can be another citta accompanied by paññå, and then paññå can understand sound as rúpa or hearing as nåma. When we think of the body as a whole, we think of a concept, an idea we have about the body. In reality, what we call body is constituted by many different rúpas that arise and fall away all the time. We notice decay of the body, and we think about its impermanence, but that is thinking of an idea, a concept we have of the body as impermanent. We do not realize the falling away of each rúpa separately, in other words, the momentary impermanence, the true charactertistic of impermanence. And therefore we also fail to see the true characteristic of dukkha: what falls away each moment is no refuge, it is not worth clinging to, it is dukkha. Before we can blink your eyes, all the rupas of the body have already gone, from head to toe, there is nothing remaining. Our misconceptions about reality cannot be eradicated if we remain in the world of thinking, of illusions. If we realize that there are six separate worlds appearing through the six doors, one at a time, our world of illusions crumbles apart. We should remember the sutta ³The world² (Kindred Sayings IV, First Fifty, Ch III, § 82) about the world that crumbles away. We read: ³What crumbles away? The eye...objects...eye-consciousness...² and so on. Sutta after sutta the Buddha explains about six classes of objects, six bases, six sense-cognitions. The question is how can the world of illusions crumble away? Listening and reflection is the foundation of beginning to be directly aware of the dhammas that appear. When sati arises and is mindful of one dhamma at a time, understanding develops. However, when we cling to sati and try to focus on specific realities it is not the way to develop right understanding. **** Nina. 33169 From: buddhatrue Date: Thu May 20, 2004 1:15pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Quiet James --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "icarofranca" wrote: > Typo!!! > > > Dear Robmoult > > ------------------------------------------------------------------- -- > > It's dear James and not dear Robmoult! > > Please, james!! > Forgive me!!! Forgive me!!! Forgive me!!! > > > Mettaya, Ícaro Friend Icaro, Of course I forgive you. I still think you must be a few cards shy of a full deck! Hehehe… ;-)) But, hey, I still forgive you. We are all a few cards shy of that full deck!! ;-)) Icaro…please never forget who you are, who others are, and always strive to be kind to both yourself and others, and you will never do wrong!! Peace Out! Psycho Brother!! ;-)) Metta, James 33170 From: icarofranca Date: Thu May 20, 2004 1:29pm Subject: Re: Sotapanna Dear Htoo! > Dear Icaro, Christine and All, > > Let me just jump in here :-). > > Icaro,are you sure that sotapams eradicate vicikiccha and only > sakkayaditthi? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- As a matter of fact, the Sotapanni erradicates objectively the akusala cittas 1,5,6 and 11, namely: 1)One consciousness, unprompted, accompained with pleasure and connected with wrong view 2)One consciousness, prompted, accompained with pleasure and connected with wrong view 5)One consciousness, unprompted, accompained with indifference, and connected with wrong view, 6)One consciousness, prompted, accompained with indifference, and connected with wrong view, 11)One consciousness, accompained with pleasure and connected with doubts. That's the real "Labour of Love" of the Sotapanni. Once this mastered, the sotapanni advances towards the next degree on his practice. Mettaya, Ícaro 33171 From: icarofranca Date: Thu May 20, 2004 1:33pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Quiet James Dear James! > > Of course I forgive you. Oh Thanks Thanks Thanks!!!!!!! Mettaya, Ícaro 33172 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Thu May 20, 2004 1:32pm Subject: Formal Sitting or Natural Arising? (was: Re: Video Games?) Hi Ken H, Sukin, and all, Ken, where can I learn more about the factors of pariyatti? Could you provide some reference about factors of pariyatti in the Pali Canon? In SN 55.5*, the Buddha spoke about the factors for stream-entry. They are: 1. Association with superior persons 2. Hearing the true Dhamma 3. Careful attention [yonisomanasikara] 4. Practice in accordance with the Dhamma When you say the factors of pariyatti, do you mean the factors for stream-entry? Metta, Victor *Ven. Bhikkhu Bodhi's translation. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > Hi Sukin, > > You wrote to Rob Ep: > -------------- > > And this is why I think, many during the Buddha's time > > got enlightened on the spot while listening to the Buddha. > Besides, often > > what also happens is kusala `listening' (Ken H. is this what you > mean?) > > conditioned by strong Saddha in the Teachings. > -------------- > > At the time, I was theorising on why `listening, studying and > associating with the wise' are factors of pariyatti leading to > mundane insight (patipatti) while formal practice (concentration on > concepts of reality) is not. > > Not that it needs any theorising -- to me it seems obvious. But > even so, I simply theorised that the Dhamma is a teaching; the > Buddha's role is to teach and our role is to listen. > > This won't convince anyone, of course; the obvious rejoinder > is, `and then we try to put what we have learnt into practice!' > > The fact remains that the Buddha did not list formal practice as one > of the factors of pariyatti. Naturally, having had this brought to > our attention, we discontinue our stylised vipassana meditation and > concentrate on study. Or so one might think. Why is it not always > the case? > > Changing the subject slightly, thanks for reporting back on your > conversation with K Sujin (about possible weak levels of insight > during Dhamma study). I think I follow what you have said. Like > you, I won't be struggling after a definite answer. Excessive > effort has never been one of my failings. :-) > > Kind regards, > Ken H > > PS: Commiserations on the loss of that molar. Take good care of the > rest of them. 33173 From: christine_forsyth Date: Thu May 20, 2004 2:12pm Subject: Re: Sotapanna Hello Icaro, Htoo, and all, What about Silabbata Paramassa? Doesn't the Sotapana extinguish that as well? Is Sakkaya Ditthi different to 'just plain' Ditthi? Does the Sotapana hang on to other types of Ditthi, or have all gone? metta, Chris --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "icarofranca" wrote: > Dear Htoo! > > > Dear Icaro, Christine and All, > > > > Let me just jump in here :-). > > > > Icaro,are you sure that sotapams eradicate vicikiccha and only > > sakkayaditthi? > > ------------------------------------------------------------------- --- > > As a matter of fact, the Sotapanni erradicates objectively the > akusala cittas 1,5,6 and 11, namely: > > 1)One consciousness, unprompted, accompained with pleasure and > connected with wrong view > 2)One consciousness, prompted, accompained with pleasure and > connected with wrong view > 5)One consciousness, unprompted, accompained with indifference, > and connected with wrong view, > 6)One consciousness, prompted, accompained with indifference, and > connected with wrong view, > 11)One consciousness, accompained with pleasure and connected > with doubts. > > That's the real "Labour of Love" of the Sotapanni. Once this > mastered, the sotapanni advances towards the next degree on his > practice. > > Mettaya, Ícaro 33174 From: Date: Thu May 20, 2004 3:08pm Subject: Re: [dsg] nibbana Hi Nina, Thanks for the info on nibbana. I'm enjoying your piece on perceverance in the dhamma too. Larry 33175 From: Date: Thu May 20, 2004 3:15pm Subject: Re: [dsg] 'Birth is suffering, old age is suffering, death is suffering....' Hi Sarah, Thanks for the quotations from the Dispeller of Delusion. Do you know of any discussion of the Four Noble Truths in terms of paramattha dhammas? I'm particularly interested in the second truth, "cause". Larry 33176 From: connie Date: Thu May 20, 2004 3:58pm Subject: re: Bardo States Hey, Sarah, if we could jump in the Way Back Time Machine and return to 'bardo states'... oops, here we are at audiodharma.org's mp3 on the aggregates: There are these four nutriments for the establishing of beings who have taken birth or for the support of *those in search of a place to be born*. Which four? Physical food, gross or refined; contact as the second, consciousness the third, and intellectual intention the fourth. These are the four nutriments for the establishing of beings or for the support of those in search of a place to be born. [SN XII.64] Thanissaro Bhikkhu mentions "sambhavesin" and calls it/them(?) 'the momentary state of being b/n death and rebirth', acknowledging that there is no such thing in a strict Thera position, but that anecdotal material from around the world seems to support such a thing. [How long can it take for the bird's shadow to land?] He goes on to mention the Commentaries discussing images of past kamma and where you might go and says something to the effect that part of what meditation is for is to be able to have a certain amount of control over that process (if you keep your wits about you)... that you can say about particular images, "I don't want to go there". Obviously, I'm an auto-pilot meditator... when I open my eyes and see the new visible objects or places around me, I'm already there and can't figure out how an end of life vision would be any easier to stay out of than those or the places I go when my head hits the pillow. Worse yet, those times you just can't wake up or stop the dream. jump back in before I'm totally outta control... I'll have to remember to ask what someone meant by calling this existence a bardo... I'd thought they were just the 'in betweens'... but then again, what else is there as long as we keep trading them in and the next is still 'waiting'? see ya next time, connie 33177 From: Sarah Date: Thu May 20, 2004 4:15pm Subject: Re: [dsg]Bus, questions and a nice Sunday! Dear Gabriel, You asked Icaro a good question and perhaps I might give a quick comment as I think he has other things on his mind these days;-) --- Gabriel Nunes Laera wrote: > I have a simple question about buddhist culture (if I can call it so!): > How > is seen marriage and relationship between a lay man and a lay woman from > the > buddhist perspective and culture.I would like you to understand thsi > doubt > since I live in a country where I have any contact with buddhist > immigrants > family, and after studying buddhism and its philosophy I do feel much > more > comfortable to think of sharing a lay-buddhist life with someone who at > least understand and respect what I believe and practice. .... S: The Buddha’s disciples consisted of monks, nuns, lay men and women and the teaching of satipatthana was and is the same for all. To give just one example, the chief female lay disciple of the Buddha and declared by him to be foremost among those who ministered to the Order (dáyikánam aggá) was Visakha (A.i.26; she is considered the ideal lay woman - e.g., A.iv.348). She had become a sotapanna at the age of seven but went on to marry and have a very large family. (the references above are from Dict of PPN which also tells us: “Visákhá had ten sons and ten daughters, each of whom had a similar number of children, and so on down to the fourth generation. Before her death, at the age of one hundred and twenty, she had eighty four thousand and twenty direct lineal descendants, all living.” We can also read various suttas which give practical advice and examples for lay people too. For example, AN, Bk of 4s, ‘Different Kinds of Marriages’ looks at various combinations of when ‘a wretch lives together with a wretch; ‘a wretch lives together with a goddess; a god lives together with a wretch; a god lives together with a goddess.’ In the latter case, “Here, householders, the husband is one who abstains from the destruction of life....from wines, liquor and intoxicants; he is virtuous, of good character; he dwells at home with a heart free from the stain of stinginess; he does not abuse or revile ascetics and brahmins. And his wife is exactly the same in all respects. It is in such a way that a god lives together with a goddess.” (Bodhi transl). When Icaro was referring to Cambridge May balls, I thought of my parents who met at one, followed some 'speed dating' and were happily married for many years before it all went unhappily and badly wrong..... Now my mother lives happily alone, leading a good and useful life and about to become a great-grandmother. We never know how life will turn out and have all lived as wretches and gods/goddesses and with wretches and gods/goddesses many, many times in samsara. So we can just take refuge in the teachings and appeciate the value of them, regardless of whether happily or unhappily married, living alone or as a bhikkhu. Look forward to any further comments. Metta, Sarah p.s I’m not sure if you were a member when Christine posted the following neat summary recently: http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/m27290.html C: >There are presently 407 members on this list - most of them are ordinary lay people struggling with just the issues you raise. Some have loving partners with an equal interest in the Teachings, some are unhappy in relationships, some have children they love but who don't necessarily bring happiness, some don't have children and had wanted to have them, some are healthy, some are quite ill, some are young, some are elderly, some are wealthy, some comfortably off, and some worried sick about how to pay bills. And some poor unfortunates have to live alone with a self-centred Great Dane, whose only interest in the Dhamma is listening to the BrahmaVihara chant on Vipassana.com (after dinner please). Generally, life in Samsara is dukkha. Remember the traditional definition of Suffering - "Birth is dukkha, aging is dukkha, death is dukkha; sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief, & despair are dukkha; association with the unbeloved is dukkha; separation from the loved is dukkha; not getting what is wanted is dukkha. In short, the five clinging-aggregates are dukkha."< ===== 33178 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Thu May 20, 2004 4:17pm Subject: Re: (was:Do or not do something) Hi Sarah and all, In the Noble Truth of the Dukkha, the Buddha taught that birth is dukkha, old age is dukkha, death is dukkha. Yet in Sammohavinodani, it is stated that birth is not itself dukkha, old age is not itself dukkha, death is not itself dukkha. The view "birth is not itself dukkha, old age is not itself dukkha, death is not itself dukkha" presented in Sammohovinodani directly contradicts what the Buddha taught in the Noble Truth of the Dukkha that birth is dukkha, old age is dukkha, death is dukkha. Metta, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > Hi Jack (Howard & All), [snip] > > All extracts are from Sammohavinodani (transl as Dispeller of Delusion, > PTS, Classification of the Truths). (Any * are mine for emphasis) [snip] > Earlier we also discussed birth, old age and death as included in the > Truth: `Birth is suffering, old age is suffering, death is > suffering..........briefly, the five factors of attachment are suffering.' > I think the following helps to clarify what is meant: > > 456 "Now `meaning of suffering in birth should be understood'...: for this > birth is not itself suffering. *But by being the basis for the arising of > suffering it is called suffering.* But of what suffering is it the basis? > The suffering of the states of woe made evident by the Blessed One by > means of simile in such places as the Baalapa.n.ditasutta (M iii 165 ff), > *and the suffering which arises in a state of bliss* [and] in the human > world, and is classed as rooted in the descent into the womb, etc in the > human world - it is the basis for all that." > ***** > 473 " `The meaning of suffering in old age should be understood'. *But > here this is not itself suffering. But it is called suffering as being > the basis for suffering*. For what suffering? For both bodily suffering > and for the suffering of grief. For the person of one who is aged is weak > like an aged cart. Great suffering arises in one struggling to stand or > to walk or to sit; grief arises in one when his wife and children are not > as considerate as before. Thus it should be understood as suffering > through being the basis for these two kinds of suffering." > ***** > 480 " `The meaning of suffering of death should be understood'; *but here > this too is not itself suffering; but it is called suffering through being > the basis for suffering*. The feelings belonging to the physical body > which end in death burn the physical body like a lighted grass torch held > against the wind. At the time of the appearance of the sign of hell, etc, > great grief arises. Accordingly it should be understood as suffering > through being the basis of these two kinds of suffering." > ***** > Birth, Old Age and Death > 482 "Furthermore these, namely, birth, ageing and death, are like > murderous enemies who go about seeking an opportunity........" > 483 "Furthermore, the suffering of birth should be regarded as the entry > into a great wilderness full of dangers; the suffering of ageing should be > regarded as the weakness of one who is deprived of food and drink there; > the suffering of death should be regarded as the accomplishment of his > ruin and disaster by wild beasts, etc, when he is weak and is struck down > and attacked while changing his posture." > ***** > Comments very welcome. > > Metta, > > Sarah > ======= 33179 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Thu May 20, 2004 6:28pm Subject: Hi all, Below is a representation of the Dependent Origination. ---------- represent coming into being of ========== represent being equivalent to Ignorance Fabrications Consciousness Nama-Rupa Six Sense Bases Contact Feeling ----------Ignorance Craving ==========Fabrications Clinging==========Fabrications Becoming Birth ----------Consciousness Birth ----------Nama-Rupa Birth ----------Six Sense Bases ----------Contact ----------Feeling ----------Ignorance ----------Craving ==========Fabrications ----------Clinging==========Fabrications Aging-&-Death Becoming Birth ----------Consciousness Birth ----------Nama-Rupa Birth ----------Six Sense Bases ----------Contact ----------Feeling ----------Craving ----------Clinging Aging-&-Death Becoming Birth Metta, Victor 33180 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Thu May 20, 2004 6:42pm Subject: Dependent Origination-a representation Hi all, Below is a representation of the Dependent Origination. ---------- represent coming into being of ========== represent being equivalent to Ignorance Fabrications Consciousness Nama-Rupa Six Sense Bases Contact Feeling ----------Ignorance Craving ==========Fabrications Clinging==========Fabrications Becoming Birth ----------Consciousness Birth ----------Nama-Rupa Birth ----------Six Sense Bases ----------Contact ----------Feeling ----------Ignorance ----------Craving ==========Fabrications ----------Clinging==========Fabrications Aging-&-Death Becoming Birth ----------Consciousness Birth ----------Nama-Rupa Birth ----------Six Sense Bases ----------Contact ----------Feeling ----------Craving ----------Clinging Aging-&-Death Becoming Birth Metta, Victor 33181 From: kenhowardau Date: Thu May 20, 2004 7:20pm Subject: Formal Sitting or Natural Arising? (was: Re: Video Games?) Hi Victor, You wrote: ---------------- V: > Ken, where can I learn more about the factors of pariyatti? Could you provide some reference about factors of pariyatti in the Pali Canon? In SN 55.5*, the Buddha spoke about the factors for stream-entry. They are: 1. Association with superior persons 2. Hearing the true Dhamma 3. Careful attention [yonisomanasikara] 4. Practice in accordance with the Dhamma When you say the factors of pariyatti, do you mean the factors for stream-entry? -------------------- Yes, I do. As I understand it, Stream-entry is a form of pativedha (penetration of the true Dhamma). The four factors for pativedha are those you have listed above. They include pariyati (intellectual understanding) which is attained by 1, 2, and 3, and patipatti, which is 4. So, I have called 1, 2 and 3, "factors of pariyatti." I hope that is acceptable terminology. I suppose "factors for patipatti" would have been correct, too. Do you agree that 1, 2 and 3 lead to 4? While we're on the subject; do you agree that number 4, practice in accordance with the Dhamma, means satipatthana? And do you agree that satipatthana means directly knowing conditioned reality to be nothing more than the various conditioned namas and rupas? All of which have the characteristics, anicca, dukkha and anatta? I suppose, for a Once-returner, `practice in accordance with the Dhamma' (patipatti) would include both satipatthana and Path Consciousness (pativedha) at the level of Stream-entry. (?) Kind regards, Ken H 33182 From: robmoult Date: Thu May 20, 2004 8:09pm Subject: Comments on Introduction Hi Suravira, I have started reading your transcripts. Excellent stuff! To keep my messages short, I will comment on one section at a time. In the introduction, you might want to state the objectives of the series or what the audience can expect to walk away with. It might be more palitable if Buddhism were presented as an "active philosophy" that can be practiced along with a traditional religion (i.e. you are not expecting anybody to prostrate themselves in front of idols). I noted that you are using mainly Pali with a bit of Sanskrit ("sutra" rather than "sutta", "karma" rather than "kamma" in a later piece). Just an observation. The Kalama Sutta is a powerful opening, however the passage selected is easily (and often) misconstrued. You might want to read Bhikkhu Bodhi's "Lecture on the Kalama Sutta" and add a paragraph or two to ensure that the context is properly understood. Bhikkhu Bodhi's paper can be found at: http://www.buddhistinformation.com/lecture_on_the_kalama_sutra.htm Hey! I just noticed that the URL uses "sutra" rather than "sutta"; but if we look at the web page, we see that BB used "sutta" :-) Metta, Rob M :-) 33183 From: robmoult Date: Thu May 20, 2004 8:53pm Subject: Comments on Dhamma Vinaya Hi Suravira, Probably a nitpicking point, but you refer to Dana-Sila-Bhavana as "pillars of practice". I believe that the Suttas refer to this set as the bases of meritorious actions (punna-kiriya-vatthu). You refered to them as a gradual teaching which could be interpreted as meaning that it was necessary to be competent at the first before proceeding to the next. The Pali word for "practice" (patipatti), as part of pariyatti-patipatti-padivedha, implies a gradual progression of Sila-Samadhi-Panna with the realization (padivedha) of steamwinning. In my opinon, a key point about Dana is that it turns the focus of the mind away from "ME". All wholesome states have a core of selflessness (I am using the term selflessness in a conventional sense, not in a technical sense). For many people, particularly in today's society, the focus is almost entirely "ME". Dana goes against the stream of "ME". In the following post, I talked about giving blood as the perfect gift: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/33023 You have stated, "This presentation of Buddhist virtue, morality and ethics includes Theravada, Mahayana Zen and Vajrayana teachings. Since I have elected not to become ordained in a particular lineage, I am not obligated to promote one particular tradition. Instead, I am free to create a hybrid of these traditions in a manner I hope will appeal to a broad segment of the American public and by so doing, share the dharma with a wider audience." Your audience would probably not know what these schools are; you might want to introduce them briefly (one sentence each) or alternatively, not use these terms at this point. From what I have read thus far, it would appear that your approach has more Theravada than Mahayana or Vajrayana. You might want to admit this "bias" at this point. Metta, Rob M :-) PS: Again, you used "dharma" rather than "dhamma" :-) 33184 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Thu May 20, 2004 8:58pm Subject: Formal Sitting or Natural Arising? (was: Re: Video Games?) Hi Ken H, Reply in context. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > Hi Victor, > > You wrote: > ---------------- > V: > Ken, where can I learn more about the factors of pariyatti? > Could you provide some reference about factors of pariyatti in the > Pali Canon? > > In SN 55.5*, the Buddha spoke about the factors for stream-entry. > They are: > 1. Association with superior persons > 2. Hearing the true Dhamma > 3. Careful attention [yonisomanasikara] > 4. Practice in accordance with the Dhamma > > When you say the factors of pariyatti, do you mean the factors for > stream-entry? > -------------------- > > Yes, I do. As I understand it, Stream-entry is a form of pativedha > (penetration of the true Dhamma). The four factors for pativedha > are those you have listed above. They include pariyati > (intellectual understanding) which is attained by 1, 2, and 3, and > patipatti, which is 4. > > So, I have called 1, 2 and 3, "factors of pariyatti." I hope that > is acceptable terminology. I suppose "factors for patipatti" would > have been correct, too. OK. > > Do you agree that 1, 2 and 3 lead to 4? Mmmm...I didn't think of the relationship between these factors. But your question got me thinking. I agree that association with superior persons, hearing the true Dhamma and careful attention [yonisomanasikara] are conducive to practice in accordance with the Dhamma. But at the same time, association with superior persons, hearing the true Dhamma, and careful attention are also practice in accordance with the Dhamma. With association with superior persons and careful attention, one can hear the true Dhamma. Hearing the true Dhamma, one can practice in accordance with the Dhamma. It occurs to me that these factors can be related in different ways. > > While we're on the subject; do you agree that number 4, practice in > accordance with the Dhamma, means satipatthana? I don't agree that practice in accordance with the Dhamma means satipatthana. Satipatthana is the Dhamma. But not everything that is the Dhamma is satipatthana. In other words, the Dhamma includes more than satipatthana. And do you agree > that satipatthana means directly knowing conditioned reality to be > nothing more than the various conditioned namas and rupas? I don't agree that satipatthana means directly knowing conditioned reality to be nothing more than the various conditioned namas and rupas. It means: Remaining focused on the body in & of itself [kaye kayanupassi]-- ardent, alert, & mindful -- putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world. Remaining focused on the feelings in & of themselves [vedanasu vedananupassi]-- ardent, alert, & mindful -- putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world. Remaining focused on the mind in & of itself [citte cittanupassi]-- ardent, alert, & mindful -- putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world. Remaining focused on the dhamma in & of themselves [dhammesu dhammanupassi]-- ardent, alert, & mindful -- putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world. And the details are explained in Satipatthana Sutta. All of > which have the characteristics, anicca, dukkha and anatta? Yes, the body, feelings, mind, and dhamma are inconstant, dukkha, not self. > > I suppose, for a Once-returner, `practice in accordance with the > Dhamma' (patipatti) would include both satipatthana and Path > Consciousness (pativedha) at the level of Stream-entry. (?) I am not trying to fit the factors of stream entry into this division of patipatti, pariyatti, and pativedha. > > Kind regards, > Ken H Metta, Victor 33185 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu May 20, 2004 9:18pm Subject: three levels of defilements Dear Rob M, Suravira and Jack, Rob, you asked about this subject, and this is part of what I posted before from my translation series from Thai about the latent tendencies. Jack may be interested at tadanga, vikkhambhana and samuccheda pahana, etc. at the end. I shall do more about anusayas, but have to go through lots of Pali texts, and this takes time. We read in the ³Expositor² (I, Introductory Discourse, 22) about the threefold training and the three levels of defilements: <³In the Vinaya-Piìaka the riddance of transgression due to the corruptions is meant, because morality is opposed to transgressions (vítikkama kilesa); in the Suttanta-Pitaka the riddance of the tyranny of the corruptions (defilements one is possessed by and that arise) is meant, because concentration of thought is inimical to such tyranny (pariyutthåna kilesa ); in the Abhidhamma-Piìaka the riddance of latent bias (anusaya kilesa) is meant, because understanding is opposed to it. In the first Pitaka there is a temporary riddance of the corruptions (by means of various factors of morality); in the others their riddance is of the nature of discarding and extirping by the Path. In the first Pitaka the riddance is of the corruption of misconduct; in the others it is (respectively) of the corruption of craving and wrong views...² The ³Såratthadípaní², the Subcommentary to the ³Samantapåsådikå², on the ³Inception of Discipline² gives an additional explanation. We read: ³As to the expression, the abandoning of the defilements that are transgressions (vítikkama kilesa), this refers to the abandoning of transgressions through the body-door and through the door of speech, thus, to the abandoning of the corruptions (sankilesa) and defilements. The defilements that persist as a powerful condition in the continuous stream of cittas cause the arising of defilements with akusala citta and, even though they are disturbing, they do not violate morality in the sense of causing transgressions. Therefore, the teachers said, ³morality is opposed to transgressions.² As regards the abandoning of medium defilements one is possessed with (pariyutthåna kilesa), medium defilements ruin and destroy what is wholesome since they have the power to give opportunity for akusala. This is explained as follows: the abandoning of medium defilements means the abandoning of the defilements that are disturbing because they arise in the succession of cittas. As to the expression, the abandoning of the latent tendencies, latent tendencies are the defilements that lie dormant in the continuous stream of cittas since they cannot be eradicated yet, and they are to be eradicated successively. These defilements can arise because of the appropriate conditions, and they are called latent tendencies. There are seven defilements which are latent tendencies and these defilements can arise when the conditions are appropriate, such as sensuous desire. The abandoning of these seven defilements is called the eradication of the latent tendencies. The factor of the eightfold Path which is wisdom can completely eradicate them.Therefore the teachers said that wisdom is opposed to the latent tendencies. As to the expression, overcoming by opposites, tadanga-pahåna, this is the overcoming of an unwholesome quality by an opposite wholesome quality among the bases of meritorious deeds, such as generosity, just as a lighted lamp dispels darkness. This is called overcoming by the opposite. However, here, overcoming by the opposite refers to the the overcoming of the wrong of transgressions by good morality. There are the expressions: overcoming by repression, vikkhambhana-pahåna, and overcoming by destruction, samuccheda-pahåna. Overcoming by repression refers to the subduing of the hindrances and so on by suppression, by preventing their arising by means of concentration of the degree of access concentration and attainment concentration (jhåna), just as a pot thrown into moss-clad water pushes the moss aside. Overcoming by destruction (samuccheda-pahåna) refers to the abandoning of the groups of defilements which originate in the succession of cittas of someone who develops the Path and which are completely eradicated by the four supramundane Paths so that they cannot arise anymore. Wrong conduct through the body (duccarita) and so on is called ³duccarita². It is also called duccarita because it is conduct that the defilements have ruined. If such conduct has arisen in the succession of cittas, this is called ³with corruptions² (sankilesa). The reason is that one is hindered by defilements and thoroughly disturbed. With regard to the abandoning of the corruptions which occur through bodily misconduct or verbal misconduct it is explained that the corruption of craving (tanhå) is taught in the Suttanta, because concentration is opposed to sensuous desire (kåmachandha). It is explained that the corruption of wrong view (ditthi) is taught in the Abhidhamma, because of the disclosure and explanation of the dhammas which each have their own characteristic (sabhåva dhammas) and are devoid of self and so on.² Nina. 33186 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Thu May 20, 2004 9:26pm Subject: Re: Dependent Origination-a representation Hi all, I am trying to revise this representation a bit. ---------- represent conccurrance or occurance of ========== represent being equivalent to Ignorance Fabrications------Ignorance Consciousness-----Ignorance Nama-Rupa---------Ignorance Six Sense Bases---Ignorance Contact-----------Ignorance Feeling-----------Ignorance Craving===========Fabrications------Ignorance Clinging==========Fabrications------Ignorance Becoming----------------------------Ignorance Birth-------------Consciousness-----Ignorance Birth-------------Nama-Rupa---------Ignorance Birth-------------Six Sense Bases---Ignorance ------------------Contact-----------Ignorance ------------------Feeling-----------Ignorance ------------------Craving===========Fabrications ------------------Clinging==========Fabrications Aging-&-Death ------------------Becoming ------------------Birth-------------Consciousness ------------------Birth-------------Nama-Rupa ------------------Birth-------------Six Sense Bases ------------------------------------Contact ------------------------------------Feeling ------------------------------------Craving ------------------------------------Clinging ------------------Aging-&-Death ------------------------------------Becoming ------------------------------------Birth Metta, Victor 33187 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Thu May 20, 2004 9:39pm Subject: Re: Dependent Origination-a representation Hi all, Again, I am trying to revise the representation a bit. ---------- represent concurrance or occurance of ========== represent being equivalent to Ignorance Fabrications------Ignorance Consciousness-----Ignorance Nama-Rupa---------Ignorance Six Sense Bases---Ignorance Contact-----------Ignorance Feeling-----------Ignorance Craving===========Fabrications------Ignorance Clinging==========Fabrications------Ignorance Becoming----------------------------Ignorance Birth-------------Consciousness-----Ignorance Birth-------------Nama-Rupa---------Ignorance Birth-------------Six Sense Bases---Ignorance Aging-------------Contact-----------Ignorance Aging-------------Feeling-----------Ignorance Aging-------------Craving===========Fabrications Aging-------------Clinging==========Fabrications Death ------------------Becoming ------------------Birth-------------Consciousness ------------------Birth-------------Nama-Rupa ------------------Birth-------------Six Sense Bases ------------------Aging-------------Contact ------------------Aging-------------Feeling ------------------Aging-------------Craving ------------------Aging-------------Clinging ------------------Death ------------------------------------Becoming ------------------------------------Birth Metta, Victor 33188 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Thu May 20, 2004 9:55pm Subject: Re: Dependent Origination-a representation Hi all, Again, I am trying to revise the representation a bit. ---------- represent concurrance or occurance of ========== represent being equivalent to Ignorance Fabrications------Ignorance Consciousness-----Ignorance Nama-Rupa---------Ignorance Six Sense Bases---Ignorance Contact-----------Ignorance Feeling-----------Ignorance Craving===========Fabrications------Ignorance Clinging==========Fabrications------Ignorance Becoming----------Consciousness-----Ignorance Birth-------------Nama-Rupa---------Ignorance Birth-------------Six Sense Bases---Ignorance Aging-------------Contact-----------Ignorance Aging-------------Feeling-----------Ignorance Aging-------------Craving===========Fabrications Aging-------------Clinging==========Fabrications Death ------------------Becoming----------Consciousness ------------------Birth-------------Nama-Rupa ------------------Birth-------------Six Sense Bases ------------------Aging-------------Contact ------------------Aging-------------Feeling ------------------Aging-------------Craving ------------------Aging-------------Clinging ------------------Death ------------------------------------Becoming ------------------------------------Birth Metta, Victor 33189 From: robmoult Date: Thu May 20, 2004 9:59pm Subject: Re: Dependent Origination-a representation Hi Victor, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "yu_zhonghao" wrote: > Again, I am trying to revise the representation a bit. > > > ---------- represent concurrance or occurance of > > ========== represent being equivalent to > > > Ignorance > > Fabrications------Ignorance > > Consciousness-----Ignorance > > Nama-Rupa---------Ignorance > > Six Sense Bases---Ignorance > > Contact-----------Ignorance ===== I am a bit confused here. What does it mean when you write: Contact-----------Ignorance I pick this as one example, but I am trying to understand the overall picture. Perhaps if you explain this one example, I will be able to relate your explanation to the rest of the representation. Metta, Rob M :-) 33190 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Thu May 20, 2004 10:03pm Subject: Re: Dependent Origination-a representation Hi all, Again, I am trying to revise the representation a bit. ---------- represent concurrance or occurance of ========== represent being equivalent to Ignorance Fabrications------Ignorance Consciousness-----Ignorance Nama-Rupa---------Ignorance Six Sense Bases---Ignorance Contact-----------Ignorance Feeling-----------Ignorance Craving===========Fabrications------Ignorance Clinging==========Fabrications------Ignorance Becoming----------Consciousness-----Ignorance Birth-------------Nama-Rupa---------Ignorance Birth-------------Six Sense Bases---Ignorance Aging-------------Contact-----------Ignorance Aging-------------Feeling-----------Ignorance Aging-------------Craving===========Fabrications Aging-------------Clinging==========Fabrications Death-------------Becoming----------Consciousness ------------------Birth-------------Nama-Rupa ------------------Birth-------------Six Sense Bases ------------------Aging-------------Contact ------------------Aging-------------Feeling ------------------Aging-------------Craving ------------------Aging-------------Clinging ------------------Death-------------Becoming ------------------------------------Birth Metta, Victor 33191 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Thu May 20, 2004 10:06pm Subject: Re: Dependent Origination-a representation Hi Rob M, In that example, it means that ignorance is there when the contact comes to be. Metta, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" wrote: > Hi Victor, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "yu_zhonghao" > wrote: > > Again, I am trying to revise the representation a bit. > > > > > > ---------- represent concurrance or occurance of > > > > ========== represent being equivalent to > > > > > > Ignorance > > > > Fabrications------Ignorance > > > > Consciousness-----Ignorance > > > > Nama-Rupa---------Ignorance > > > > Six Sense Bases---Ignorance > > > > Contact-----------Ignorance > > ===== > > I am a bit confused here. What does it mean when you write: > > Contact-----------Ignorance > > I pick this as one example, but I am trying to understand the overall > picture. Perhaps if you explain this one example, I will be able to > relate your explanation to the rest of the representation. > > Metta, > Rob M :-) 33192 From: robmoult Date: Thu May 20, 2004 10:07pm Subject: Re: three levels of defilements Hi Nina, This is very interesting stuff and I would like more. I am trying to understand what happens when "thinking goes wrong". I am still trying to articulate it, but my current understanding is that the three levels of defilements are the conditions, natural decisive support is the mode of conditioning and the current mental state is that which is conditioned. The vipallasa are high level descriptions of the process (however, the three vipallasa do not correlate to the three levels of defilements). Comments? Expansions? Metta, Rob M :-) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > Rob, you asked about this subject, and this is part of what I posted before > from my translation series from Thai about the latent tendencies. Jack may > be interested at tadanga, vikkhambhana and samuccheda pahana, etc. at the > end. I shall do more about anusayas, but have to go through lots of Pali > texts, and this takes time. > We read in the ³Expositor² (I, Introductory Discourse, 22) about the > threefold training and the three levels of defilements: > > <³In the Vinaya-Piìaka the riddance of transgression due to the corruptions > is meant, because morality is opposed to transgressions (vítikkama kilesa); > in the Suttanta-Pitaka the riddance of the tyranny of the corruptions > (defilements one is possessed by and that arise) is meant, because > concentration of thought is inimical to such tyranny (pariyutthåna kilesa ); > in the Abhidhamma-Piìaka the riddance of latent bias (anusaya kilesa) is > meant, because understanding is opposed to it. In the first Pitaka there is > a temporary riddance of the corruptions (by means of various factors of > morality); in the others their riddance is of the nature of discarding and > extirping by the Path. In the first Pitaka the riddance is of the corruption > of misconduct; in the others it is (respectively) of the corruption of > craving and wrong views...² > > The ³Såratthadípaní², the Subcommentary to the ³Samantapåsådikå², on the > ³Inception of Discipline² gives an additional explanation. We read: > > ³As to the expression, the abandoning of the defilements that are > transgressions (vítikkama kilesa), this refers to the abandoning of > transgressions through the body-door and through the door of speech, thus, > to the abandoning of the corruptions (sankilesa) and defilements. The > defilements that persist as a powerful condition in the continuous stream of > cittas cause the arising of defilements with akusala citta and, even though > they are disturbing, they do not violate morality in the sense of causing > transgressions. Therefore, the teachers said, ³morality is opposed to > transgressions.² > As regards the abandoning of medium defilements one is possessed with > (pariyutthåna kilesa), medium defilements ruin and destroy what is wholesome > since they have the power to give opportunity for akusala. This is explained > as follows: the abandoning of medium defilements means the abandoning of the > defilements that are disturbing because they arise in the succession of > cittas. > As to the expression, the abandoning of the latent tendencies, latent > tendencies are the defilements that lie dormant in the continuous stream of > cittas since they cannot be eradicated yet, and they are to be eradicated > successively. > These defilements can arise because of the appropriate conditions, and they > are called latent tendencies. There are seven defilements which are latent > tendencies and these defilements can arise when the conditions are > appropriate, such as sensuous desire. The abandoning of these seven > defilements is called the eradication of the latent tendencies. The factor > of the eightfold Path which is wisdom can completely eradicate > them.Therefore the teachers said that wisdom is opposed to the latent > tendencies. > As to the expression, overcoming by opposites, tadanga-pahåna, this is the > overcoming of an unwholesome quality by an opposite wholesome quality among > the bases of meritorious deeds, such as generosity, just as a lighted lamp > dispels darkness. This is called overcoming by the opposite. However, here, > overcoming by the opposite refers to the the overcoming of the wrong of > transgressions by good morality. > There are the expressions: overcoming by repression, vikkhambhana- pahåna, > and overcoming by destruction, samuccheda-pahåna. Overcoming by repression > refers to the subduing of the hindrances and so on by suppression, by > preventing their arising by means of concentration of the degree of access > concentration and attainment concentration (jhåna), just as a pot thrown > into moss-clad water pushes the moss aside. > Overcoming by destruction (samuccheda-pahåna) refers to the abandoning of > the groups of defilements which originate in the succession of cittas of > someone who develops the Path and which are completely eradicated by the > four supramundane Paths so that they cannot arise anymore. Wrong conduct > through the body (duccarita) and so on is called ³duccarita². It is also > called duccarita because it is conduct that the defilements have ruined. If > such conduct has arisen in the succession of cittas, this is called ³with > corruptions² (sankilesa). The reason is that one is hindered by defilements > and thoroughly disturbed. With > regard to the abandoning of the corruptions which occur through bodily > misconduct or verbal misconduct it is explained that the corruption of > craving (tanhå) is taught in the Suttanta, because concentration is opposed > to sensuous desire (kåmachandha). It is explained that the corruption of > wrong view (ditthi) is taught in the Abhidhamma, because of the disclosure > and explanation of the dhammas which each have their own characteristic > (sabhåva dhammas) and are devoid of self and so on.² > Nina. 33193 From: robmoult Date: Thu May 20, 2004 10:20pm Subject: Re: Dependent Origination-a representation Hi Victor, Let's explore this further. In the Honeyball Sutta (Mn18), it says, "Dependent on the eye and forms, eye consciousness arises. The meeting of the three is contact." So when contact comes to be, we have: - Eye base - Visible object - Eye consciousness Eye base and visible object are rupas. Eye base is kamma-produced rupa, so are you saying that the citta which created the kamma that produced the rupa was akusala (only akusala cittas have moha)? I suspect that this statement is incorrect and even if the statement were correct, this is quite an indirect relationship between moha and contact. Visible object is temperature-produced, so I can't see any moha there either. Eye consciousness is a kiriya citta; it has no roots. It has no moha and it is not linked to kamma. It is true that contact arises in all mental states, but only the akusala mental states have moha. Please help me to understand better. Metta, Rob M :-) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "yu_zhonghao" wrote: > Hi Rob M, > > In that example, it means that ignorance is there when the contact > comes to be. > > Metta, > Victor > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" > wrote: > > Hi Victor, > > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "yu_zhonghao" > > wrote: > > > Again, I am trying to revise the representation a bit. > > > > > > > > > ---------- represent concurrance or occurance of > > > > > > ========== represent being equivalent to > > > > > > > > > Ignorance > > > > > > Fabrications------Ignorance > > > > > > Consciousness-----Ignorance > > > > > > Nama-Rupa---------Ignorance > > > > > > Six Sense Bases---Ignorance > > > > > > Contact-----------Ignorance > > > > ===== > > > > I am a bit confused here. What does it mean when you write: > > > > Contact-----------Ignorance > > > > I pick this as one example, but I am trying to understand the > overall > > picture. Perhaps if you explain this one example, I will be able > to > > relate your explanation to the rest of the representation. > > > > Metta, > > Rob M :-) 33194 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Thu May 20, 2004 10:24pm Subject: Re: Dependent Origination-a representation Hi Rob M, Please let me know if I can explain something else regarding the representation. Basically, I was trying to shows a process of iteration and I used the dashed line "----" to show a temporal connection/relation. Metta, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" wrote: > Hi Victor, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "yu_zhonghao" > wrote: > > Again, I am trying to revise the representation a bit. > > > > > > ---------- represent concurrance or occurance of > > > > ========== represent being equivalent to > > > > > > Ignorance > > > > Fabrications------Ignorance > > > > Consciousness-----Ignorance > > > > Nama-Rupa---------Ignorance > > > > Six Sense Bases---Ignorance > > > > Contact-----------Ignorance > > ===== > > I am a bit confused here. What does it mean when you write: > > Contact-----------Ignorance > > I pick this as one example, but I am trying to understand the overall > picture. Perhaps if you explain this one example, I will be able to > relate your explanation to the rest of the representation. > > Metta, > Rob M :-) 33196 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Thu May 20, 2004 10:38pm Subject: Re: Dependent Origination-a representation Hi Rob M, In the representation, I was trying to show a temporal relation, indicating that ignorance is there as contact comes to be. I was not trying to show a causal relation with "Contact-----------Ignorance" Please let me know if there is anything else regarding the representation as whole that you would like me to explain. Metta, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" wrote: > Hi Victor, > > Let's explore this further. In the Honeyball Sutta (Mn18), it > says, "Dependent on the eye and forms, eye consciousness arises. The > meeting of the three is contact." > > So when contact comes to be, we have: > - Eye base > - Visible object > - Eye consciousness > > Eye base and visible object are rupas. Eye base is kamma-produced > rupa, so are you saying that the citta which created the kamma that > produced the rupa was akusala (only akusala cittas have moha)? I > suspect that this statement is incorrect and even if the statement > were correct, this is quite an indirect relationship between moha and > contact. Visible object is temperature-produced, so I can't see any > moha there either. > > Eye consciousness is a kiriya citta; it has no roots. It has no moha > and it is not linked to kamma. > > It is true that contact arises in all mental states, but only the > akusala mental states have moha. > > Please help me to understand better. > > Metta, > Rob M :-) 33197 From: Andrew Date: Thu May 20, 2004 11:17pm Subject: Re: The Practical View of Anatta Dear Suravira First of all, let me offer you a word or two of encouragement. I do appreciate your considerable efforts to analyse and disseminate the Dhamma and I happily admit to feeling a sense of comfort in knowing that there are people like you around and that we haven't all succumbed to that endless round of materialism and war-mongering. Keep up the good work! You are good at what you do. Secondly and solely in order to reinforce Sarah's unwholesome view of lawyers, I have to accuse you of the heinous crime of misspelling a word (although it's probably something more to do with fonts). The word is "vatikkama" which I found only as "vitikkama". For those interested, I will put in another post a quotation from Mahathera Ledi Sayadaw on that topic. Suravira, you and I share an interest in the pedagogy of the Dhamma in the west. You are doing a fat lot more about it than I am and your views carry alot more weight than mine. Nevertheless, may it be of benefit to share some differing perspectives - you never know, they may come up in discussions you have with students in the future. The starting point on this issue is surely the Buddha's enlightenment and his initial inclination NOT to teach! We know that the god, Brahma Sahampati prompted him to overcome that inclination, particularly on the grounds that there were some beings "with little dust in their eyes" and easy to teach. One gets the impression that they were a small minority! We can't be surprised, therefore, to learn that the Buddha predicted the corruption and disappearance of his Dhamma. In other words, Suravira, we are teaching a subject that is in difficulty and will ultimately drop off the curriculum altogether! I have saddha that this will occur. In the TV script, you advocate explaining Dhamma to westerners using some western psychology. The Tipitika, as we know, has its own "psychology" set out in the Abhidhamma. On the one hand, I see that your approach displays commonsense - when in Rome, do as the Romans do. On the other hand, I see a pitfall (damn lawyers ALWAYS see pitfalls, don't they?). Western science is driven by the scientific method which, in turn, is largely driven by ego, often in the form of Ph.D students all wanting to make their mark by debunking old "truths" or ushering in new ones. Look at the dietary sciences and how various foodstuffs go in and out of fashion based on the latest (industry-funded) research! Western science is an ongoing quest. The Dhamma is a teaching given by a fully enlightened being who had all the answers. Therefore, the pitfall of using western psychology to transmit the Dhamma is that the Dhamma will then necessarily go through periods of acceptance and rejection according to the latest paradigm holding sway (often only because one type of scientific research is better funded than another type). Tying the Dhamma to the vagaries of western science is IMHO a recipe for hybridisation and rejection. And we don't have to do it! Dhamma has its own "psychology" - something properly seen as a raft to be used and later abandoned. Two groups that I am aware of have fallen into the trap of pegging their religion to the ups and downs of science. The Christian Science Church reacted to a "down" time in medical science and built a dogma over it. Lo and behold, medical science improved dramatically and left the Church looking silly. Today in Australia, another chap is making the same error - adopting and dogmatising current science for religious purposes. I predict he will go the same way as the Christian Scientists. (His name is Jeremy Griffith and you can read about his religion at www.humancondition.info). This all sounds very negative, Suravira, but it needn't be - so long as we get the message across that the Dhamma is neither proved nor disproved by western psychology, that its own "psychology" is nothing more than a raft, a handful of leaves in the forest. It doesn't matter that western psychologists don't fully agree with "Buddhist psychology". It's actually quite irrelevant when viewed in proper context. Getting down to some technical points in the TV script: 1. "to gain insight into this nature of awareness, this luminous purity, we must practice Samadhi and manifest Jhana." These contentions have been hotly contested by some on this list. There is another view ie that "dry insight" practitioners can attain the goal without jhana, and that jhana doesn't necessarily lead to insight. I won't go into that further. 2. that Samadhi practice is wholesome. Herein lies that perennial problem with the noun "practice". A period of say 5 minutes of "Samadhi practice" will no doubt involve thousands of unwholesome as well as wholesome cittas - possibly even some of gross self-view. 3. the difficulty involved in practising the discipline of Samadhi. Could it be that this is actually an indication not so much of fear but of having no control over conditions apart from one citta helping condition its successor? Perhaps we are at the whim of fetters and hindrances rather than being master of them? 4. the beautiful aspect of humanity - awareness. Are you here referring to citta? 5. that hindrances/fetters are atrophied (starved) by mindfulness. Yes, but in a single mind moment, they are either active or not. Do you not think that the expectation of an individual continuum is a conventional mode of thinking and not penetration into absolute truth? Well, that's all I can think of. I hope it doesn't sound too negative because I am impressed by your work and hope that some of the comments above can help you to go from strength to strength. Best wishes Andrew 33198 From: Andrew Date: Thu May 20, 2004 11:23pm Subject: Vitikkama Dear Group Regarding this term raised by Suravira, I found the following quotation from Mahathera Ledi Sayadaw in his Manual of Factors Leading to Enlightenment. I hope it is of interest. "Ditthi is established in beings in three layers: 1. vitikkama 2. pariyutthana 3. anusaya.[67] These layers are the realm of sakkaya-ditthi. They may be called coarse, middling, and fine ditthi. I shall how show how the offsprings of ditthi, the ten duccarita, enter into ditthi. The coarse ditthi of vitikkama comprises the akusala kamma committed through overt acts and speech. The middling ditthi of pariyutthana comprises the evils that occur in thoughts. Anusaya-ditthi is the evil that lies latent in the personalities of beings throughout anamatagga-samsara though it may not yet result in manifestations of acts, speech, or thoughts. It may be said that there are three kinds of fire in a match-box. The first is the fire that lies latent in the whole box of matches. The second is the fire that ignites the match stick when it is struck. The third is the fire that is transferred to another object when it is brought in contact with the flame of the match stick. Such a fire is that which burns rubbish heaps, clothes, houses, monasteries and villages. This fire, the fire that is transferred to another object, resembles the coarse vitakkama-ditthi. The fire that burns the match stick resembles the middling pariyutthana ditthi which is manifested in the mind every time it comes in contact with objects of thought. The fire that is latent in the box of matches resembles the fine anusaya- ditthi that resides in the personalities of beings throughout the succession of lives in anama-tagga-samsara. This fire that lies latent in the box of matches does not burst into flame so long as the match head is not rubbed with the nitrous surface of the match-box, It does not cause any harm even if it be kept in contact with highly inflammable articles such as gunpowder. In the same way, the anusaya-ditthi lies latent in the personality and does not manifest itself so long as it does not come into contact with evil objects of thought or other causes of evil. When, however, evil objects of thought or other causes impinge on the six sense- doors, the anusaya-ditthi is disturbed and begins to make itself manifest in the mind-door, or in the plane of the pariyutthana through the function of volition. If at that time the manifestations can be suppressed by good doctrines, they disappear from the pariyutthana plane and return to the anusaya plane and reside there as latent natural tendencies. If they cannot be suppressed, they continue to manifest themselves as developing volitions. If they are further disturbed (in the pariyutthana plane), they manifest themselves in the vitikkama plane in the form of evil speech or evil acts. In this world, if a person can control himself in the vitikkama and pariyutthana planes, and if thereby his acts, speech, and thoughts are, so to say, clean and unsoiled, he is called a good, pious, or moral man. But such a person is not aware of the anusaya plane. If the anusaya plane is not destroyed, even if perfect control is exercised over the vitikkama and pariyutthana planes, such control can only be of a temporary nature. If the person is strong in the observance of good principles, the control can last for the whole of this life. But there can be no certainty about the next life, when upheavals in these two planes may recur." Any comments? Best wishes Andrew 33199 From: robmoult Date: Fri May 21, 2004 0:02am Subject: Re: Dependent Origination-a representation --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "yu_zhonghao" wrote: > In the representation, I was trying to show a temporal relation, > indicating that ignorance is there as contact comes to be. I was > not trying to show a causal relation with > "Contact-----------Ignorance" > > Please let me know if there is anything else regarding the > representation as whole that you would like me to explain. Let's keep to this one for now because I am still confused. Why do you say that ignorance is always there as contact comes to be? Metta, Rob M :-)