33400 From: Date: Thu May 27, 2004 7:03am Subject: Sila -> Samadhi -> Panna (Re: [dsg] Re: I have a wonderful wife) Hi, Ken (and Rob & Phil, and also Jon at the end) - In a message dated 5/27/04 3:22:40 AM Eastern Daylight Time, kenhowardau@y... writes: > RM:> >>Practice is the gradual training of Sila -> Samadhi -> Panna > >>> > > Ph: >>Does this progression mean that Samadhi is a necessary > precursor - if that's the right word - to Panna? No Panna without > Samadhi first? >> > > ===== > > KH: I'm confused too, Rob. Samadhi is a universal cetasika, is it > not? Why are you talking about sila leading to samadhi leading to > panna? > > Are you referring to samma-samadhi (right concentration)? In that > case, it should be made clear that it arises with (and dependent > upon) panna, not before. "As to this (right concentration) right > understanding comes first." (Mahacattarika-sutta) > =========================== Ken, in AN X,1 you will find the following, where "-->" means "has as reward": _____________________ Virtuous ways of conduct --> Non-remorse --> Gladness --> Joy --> Serenity --> Happiness --> Concentration of the mind --> Knowledge and vision of things as they really are --> Revulsion and dispassion --> Knowledge and vision of liberation Also, in AN VI,1 you will find the following, where "-->" means "is a basis for": ___________________ Sense control --> Virtue --> Right concentration --> Knowledge and vision of things as they really are --> Revulsion and dispassion --> Knowledge and vision of liberation A long while ago Jon and I had an exchange of posts on the role of concentration. I can't seem to find those posts, which I *thought* I had saved. I do think that there was another sutta, similar to the ones mentioned above, that says about the same thing, except it also shows how later factors lead to new, higher-level versions of earlier factors, inducing me to make a spiral simile. Jon, do you have copies of that earlier exchange between us? With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 33401 From: htootintnaing Date: Thu May 27, 2004 11:26am Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 015 ) Dear Dhamma Friends, The first vithi citta in vithi series does the function of avajjana. If the object is one of five senses, then the citta will be pancadvaravajjana citta. If the object is mind object, then the citta arises will be manodvaravajjana citta. Both do the job of avajjana. Avajjana is made up of 'arammana or aa' and 'vajjana'. Vajjana means 'contemplating' 'considering' 'thinking of' 'examining'. So both citta think of the object or arammana. In pancarammana or 5-senses, pancadvara avajjana citta thinks of the object and knows that it is at so and so dvara or door. So next arising citta will be according to that dvara. In manodvara vithi series, after bhavangupaccheda, manodvaravajjana citta arises and contemplates on the object and then 7 successive javana cittas arise taking the same object with impulse. 2nd vithi citta is pancadvara vithi series is pancavinnana citta. Panca means five. Vinnana comprises 'vi' and 'nana'. Vi means distinctly, distinguishingly, particularly, especially. Nana means knowledge or knowing. So pancavinnana means knoeledge of one of 5 physical senses. No other citta can do the job of pancavinnana citta. Pancavinnana citta is a collective term for cakkhuvinnana citta, sotavinnana citta, ghanavinnana citta, jivhavinnana citta, and kayavinnana citta. Cakkhu means 'related to eye'. Cakkhuvinnana means 'knowing particularly at eye'. Sota means 'related to ear', ghana means 'related to nose', jivha means 'related to tongue, and kaya means 'related to body'. The function here is vinnana function that is special knowledge of sense. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 33402 From: Htoo Naing Date: Thu May 27, 2004 0:36pm Subject: Tihetuka Cittas Dear Dhamma Friends, Tihetuka cittas have been discussed in the page 34 of patthana dhamma pages. The page 34 has finished up and the page can now be viewed at http://www.geocities.com/htootintnaing/patthana34.html . Tihetuka patisandhi is essential for arising of jhana cittas, magga cittas, phala cittas in this very life. But we still can learn Dhamma to its deepest level even though we may or may not achieve jhana, magga, and phala cittas in this very life. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 33403 From: htootintnaing Date: Thu May 27, 2004 0:46pm Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 016 ) Dear Dhamma Friends, Vithi citta series starts with avajjana citta which is a contemplating mind which contemplates on arammana or object. Due to its contemplation it knows that the object comes through one of 5 sense door but the citta immediately falls away. Next arises pancavinnana citta. If the object is rupa, cakkhuvinnana citta arise, if sadda or sound sotavinnana citta, if gandha or smell ghanavinnana citta, if rasa or taste jivhavinana citta, and if photthabba or touch kayavinnana citta arises. If avajjana citta is akusala then pancavinnana citta is also akusala and if kusala then kusala. Pancavinnana citta then immediately falls away. Next arise sampaticchana citta. Sampaticchana is a Pali word made up of 'sam' and 'paticchana'. Sam means 'in a good manner' 'well' 'neatly' and paticchana means 'to receive'. Sampaticchana citta just receives the message of object that pancavinnana took. It also in accordance with kusala or akusala dhamma depending on the preceeding cittas. There are 2 sampaticchana cittas or 2 receiving minds. They are akusala and kusala sampaticchana cittas. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 33404 From: Philip Date: Thu May 27, 2004 5:10pm Subject: Conditioned? Concentration? ( was Re: I have a wonderful wife Hi Ken, and all Thank you for the feedback, Ken. > Ph to RM: > > I think you place more emphasis on meditation than > some people here. > ---------------------- > > KH: It depends on the meaning of meditation. True meditation is a > citta, (it lasts one mind-moment) (snip) Ph: This is interesting. I'd never though of meditation being a citta, a mind-moment. I know there is concentration as a citta, a universal that rises with every citta if I recall correctly. But meditation as a citta is new to me. I don't think I've come across such an idea in Nina's books, though it is probably expressed in other words. > --------------------- > Ph: > > I appreciate that - I don't understand why meditation is > seen as a self-driven activity. > > > ---------------------- > > KH: When formal meditation is spoken of as a self-driven activity, I > think that means it is undertaken with the intention of gaining > something for one's self. Ph: Well, I think I used "self-driven" to mean that it is done with wrong view related to self controlling things and deciding to sit. "Driven" as in self taking hold of the reins and pulling a person this way or that way, towards skillful practices and away from bad habits. And of course that would be done in the way that you mention - "with the intention of gaining something for one's self." > ------------------------ > Ph: > Why can't meditation arise in a conditioned way the same way > studying or discussing does? > > ---------------------- > > K: By `conditioned,' I think you mean `not self-driven.' Reading, > discussing and considering Dhamma can (sometimes) be done without > being self-driven (without wanting to gain something). I'm not sure > the same can be said about formal meditation, though. Ph: I wonder what I mean by conditioned?. I tend to throw around terms that I've read about but not yet properly understood. I think of conditionned in this case as, for example in my case, sitting on a cushion with a coffee (cheating!) as soon as I have gotten up and taken a pee and done a few calesthenics. It's my morning routine. I do it without thinking because I have done it so often before. No hopes of ganing anything in particular from my meditation, but open to any insights that arise. Do I want to gain something? Well, I want to understand akusala better, to make progress- I admit- in beginning to eradicate defilements. >K: In any case, why would we practice formal meditation as part of our > Dhamma practice? Ph: I can't speak for more advanced practicioners, but I think meditation is very helpful for beginners. We are provided with a workshop on the cushion, an opportunity to sit quietly and watch the way thoughts come and go. For people who ahve lived for years at the mercy of their thoughts, sitting and observing them is very liberating. And leads to more observation in the day that follows. I can see that as one cultivates satipatthana, the need for that time on the cushion could decrease - unless of course one wants to seek jhanas. But for this beginner, cushion time is very helpful, I think. As long as I understand that I am not gaining some kind of pristine mind that I can take out into the world, that will allow me to rise above dukkha or something. I've seen similar ideas taught, and I think it is wrong. The awareness of thoughts on the cushion is just a warm-up for more awareness during the day to come. It leads to (conditions?) more awareness later in the day, in my opinion. K: >The Buddha did not list it as one of the factors > for enlightenment. Ph: Are you referring to the 7 factors, the bojjhanga? It certainly gets confusing with so many lists of factors and faculties and strengths and whatnot. Concentration is one of the 7 factors, and of course right concentration is a path factor. So the concentration that rises as a citta accompanying other cittas, universally, and the right concentration that is a path factor - are they the same thing? I am not fretting about trying to figure this out, yet, but I will continue to think about it. (snip) K: >But practice in accordance with the > Dhamma is synonymous with insight into the nature of conditioned > reality: it doesn't mean sitting on a cushion or concentrating on > concepts. > Ph: Absolutely. But as I said above, I think sitting on a cushion in the morning can help one develop a mind that seeks insight into the nature of conditioned reality throughout the day. It is not absolutely necessary, of course, but it helps, I think. Especially when one is starting out. And concentrating on concepts such as Metta - concentrating on them in a non-forceful way that is more like contemplating them- is certainly beneficial if one goes about it without expectations. Contemplating concepts - that's something I want to ask about, but I will do it in another thread someday. Contemplating and allowing ideas to arise on a topic without forcing the issue. Very helpful, I think but I guess it's very hard to do in a way that is not about self seeking to gain something. Metta, Phil 33405 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Thu May 27, 2004 7:21pm Subject: Re: I have a wonderful wife Hi Ken H and all, Panna/wisdom also depends on concentration: SN 56.1 Concentration [1] At Savatthi. "Bhikkhus, develop concentration. A bhikkhu who is concentrated understands things as they really are. "And what does he understands as it really is? He understands as it really is: 'This is suffering.' He understands as it really is: 'This is the origin of suffering.' He understands as it really is: 'This is the cessation of suffering.' He understands as it really is: 'This is the way leading to the cessation of suffering.' "Bhikkhus, develop concentration. A bhikkhu who is concentrated understands things as they really are. "Therefore, bhikkhus, an exertion should be made to understand: 'This is suffering.' An exertion should be made to understand: 'This is the origin of suffering.' An exertion should be made to understand: 'This is the cessation of suffering.' An exertion should be made to understand: 'This is the way leading to the cessation of suffering.'" Metta, Victor [1] Bhikkhu Bodhi's translation. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > Hi Rob M and Philip, [snip] > Are you referring to samma-samadhi (right concentration)? In that > case, it should be made clear that it arises with (and dependent > upon) panna, not before. "As to this (right concentration) right > understanding comes first." (Mahacattarika-sutta) [snip] > Kind regards, > Ken H 33406 From: Date: Thu May 27, 2004 4:11pm Subject: Re: [dsg] 'Birth is suffering, old age is suffering, death is suffering....' Hi Sarah, Dukkha has a cause. Does impermanence and anatta have a cause? Larry 33407 From: Date: Thu May 27, 2004 4:07pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: feeling? Hi Rob, How about if we throw out the entire dependent arising formula as a conceptual fabrication _except_ as it applies to citta process? Ultimate reality is only what we experience here and now. Isn't that only citta process? Some how or another feeling must enter into every citta process in such a way that we can say contact conditions feeling and feeling conditions javana cittas. Can you explain citta process in that way? Larry 33408 From: Date: Thu May 27, 2004 4:30pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Tiika Vis. 79, no 1 Ven Narada: Hi Nina, What if I intentionally make a non-intimating sound with my mouth? Is that consciousness produced or temperature produced? Or is it that intention _is_ intimation when it comes to consciously producing sound (therefore there is no intentionally produced non-intimating sound)? Also, I disagree with Ven Narada. It seems to me music is intimation (even the tap, tap, tap of tap dancing). Larry 33409 From: buddhatrue Date: Fri May 28, 2004 0:08am Subject: Conditioned? Concentration? ( was Re: I have a wonderful wife --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Philip" wrote: > > Hi Ken, and all > > Thank you for the feedback, Ken. > > > Ph to RM: > > I think you place more emphasis on meditation than > > some people here. > > ---------------------- > > > > KH: It depends on the meaning of meditation. True meditation is a > > citta, (it lasts one mind-moment) (snip) > > > Ph: This is interesting. I'd never though of meditation being a > citta, a mind-moment. I know there is concentration as a citta, a > universal that rises with every citta if I recall correctly. But > meditation as a citta is new to me. I don't think I've come across > such an idea in Nina's books, though it is probably expressed in > other words. Friend Phil, I have really been enjoying your posts of late. They are fresh and open. In this post you state a few open-ended questions which express some confusion. I am going to offer you my perspective on this issue. I have covered these points in previous posts in this group, but you were not a member then and missed them, so I will cover them again. The Buddha did not define Right Concentration as the concentration inherent to each citta. The Buddha defined Right Concentration as Jhana: "And what is right concentration? There is the case where a monk -- quite withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful (mental) qualities -- enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. With the stilling of directed thought & evaluation, he enters & remains in the second jhana: rapture & pleasure born of composure, unification of awareness free from directed thought & evaluation -- internal assurance. With the fading of rapture he remains in equanimity, mindful, & fully alert, and physically sensitive of pleasure. He enters & remains in the third jhana, and of him the Noble Ones declare, 'Equanimous & mindful, he has a pleasurable abiding.' With the abandoning of pleasure & pain -- as with the earlier disappearance of elation & distress -- he enters & remains in the fourth jhana: purity of equanimity & mindfulness, neither pleasure nor pain. This is called right concentration." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn45-008.html I do believe that there is concentration inherent to each citta but this concentration is not of a liberating quality. Actually, this concentration is of the nature of craving because it is the factor which causes the arising of each particular citta. Just as each raindrop on the surface of a lake will cause a tiny splash, each arising of rupa will cause a subsequent arising of nama…and each nama is `concentrated' on the rupa which caused it to arise. This is samsara and it is not liberating. It is only the concentration that frees the mind from the pull of rupa, namely Jhana concentration, which can be truly liberating. I agree with you that meditation is very important (crucial) to Buddhist practice. Sometimes that meditation is very casual, like the morning cup of coffee you have with your meditation (BTW, I do that too! ;-)). Sometimes it is much more focused and energetic, with no pauses to drink coffee. Both of these are good practices. Of course, eventually, they need to lead to Jhana states. And this isn't my opinion; this is what the Buddha taught. Also, the Buddha taught that the Brahma-Viharas can be used as a vehicle to reach each of the four mundane Jhanas: Loving-Kindness, Compassion, and Sympathetic Joy can be used as the kasina for the first three Jhanas, and Equanimity can lead to the Fourth Jhana. Hope this helps and I hope you keep up the delightful posts! Metta, James 33410 From: Date: Thu May 27, 2004 4:51pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Tiika Vis 79, note 33. no 2. Hi Nina, Just a thought on intimation: it seems to me any expression of one's state of mind is an intimation, whether it be stamping one's foot in anger, a fashion statement, or any kind of art. What do you think? Larry 33411 From: kenhowardau Date: Fri May 28, 2004 0:35am Subject: Concentration/Victor: was: I have a wonderful wife --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "yu_zhonghao" wrote: > Hi Ken H and all, > > Panna/wisdom also depends on concentration: > > SN 56.1 Concentration [1] > > At Savatthi. "Bhikkhus, develop concentration. A bhikkhu who is > concentrated understands things as they really are. > "And what does he understands as it really is? Hi Victor, Thanks for your help. However, I do believe you have jumped to the wrong conclusion. What is meant here by, "A bhikkhu who is concentrated understands things as they really are?" I think this refers to a moment (or moments) of vipassana. At a moment of vipassana, there is right concentration. There is also right understanding, right thought, possibly the three abstentions (depending on the level of vipassana) -- right speech, right action and right livelihood -- right effort and right mindfulness. So, the Buddha might just as well have said, "Bhikkhus, develop right thought," or, "Bhikkhus, develop right speech," and so on. No doubt, there are suttas where he does say those things. In this case he chose to say, " Develop concentration" and, of course, he had perfectly good reasons for doing so. I presume those reasons are given somewhere in the commentaries. Perhaps he was talking to a group of jhana meditators who were wondering if they were on the right track. (?) As to the order in which these Path factors are conditioned, "right understanding comes first." (This is stated in the suttas (eg Mahacattarika-sutta) and explained in detail in the Abhidhamma.) At the same time, right understanding depends on the co-arising of right concentration and the other `right' cetasikas. Victor, it is important that you accept the help of the Abhidhamma and the ancient commentaries. Without them, you (or anyone) will always misinterpret the suttas. Your current battle over the meaning of "birth is dukkha" demonstrates the absurd situations you will get yourself into. In the same way, your lone stand on the assertion, "the Buddha did not teach no self" is a lost cause. It can only be sustained while you continue to `pick a few words out of context and make sweeping statements.' Don't go it alone, Victor, the suttas are deep, profound and "knowable only to the wise." Kind regards, Ken H 33412 From: Sarah Date: Fri May 28, 2004 1:06am Subject: Re: [dsg] Perseverance in Dhamma, Ch 2, no 3 Dear Nina & Philip, I’m appreciating the good reminders in your posts and in Nina’s series: --- nina van gorkom wrote: > It is a gain to know at least when we cling to an underlying notion of > self, > no matter what our actions are, even when we perform kusala. Acharn > Sujin > asked us whether it is not true that we often perform kusala for our own > sake. She said, 3If one understands the teachings and there is less > attachment to the self you think of the others more than of yourself. > You > think of helping others in deed and speech at any time.2 ..... S: It’s so true. So often we’re concerned about developing metta or wisdom or other wholesome states, but really it’s for *me* and instead of developing detachment, there’s more developing of attachment. Expectations and looking for results are a big clue. Phil, I understand what you say about your family difficulties and inclination to speak out very easily.* I’m sure many if not most here also have had some kind of serious problems in our families. As Nina mentioned recently, forgiveness is also a kind of dana (generosity). I also used to have quite a lot of resentment about some family issues, but found it very helpful to be reminded that all the events were in the past and to have metta for those involved while there was the opportunity. The opportunity is gone before we know it. One can never repay one’s parents for helping to give us this opportunity to hear dhamma and for nurturing us as best they could according to the conditions at the time (including lots of ignorance, of course). When we have long, long stories, we’re just accumulating more resentment and other defilements. The best help for Naomi is to encourage her to ‘let it go’ and develop metta and understanding. There is no abuse now and the present is all that counts.As you said, accumulations are complex - her brother suffered less but his life is far more of a mess. In the end, we cannot blame our problems on the way we’ve been treated. The 3 poisons have been accumulating for aeons of lifetimes. As you hint at, the ‘clinging to the people involved in this drama and desire to protect....’ lies at the root of the real problem. In other words, it comes back to self again. As Nina wrote in another extract, quoting K.Sujin: ‘when we have more understanding, kusala can become purer. If we do not consider the citta that arises, we may merely think of ourselves....’ I know you’ll appreciate this. In MN 129, Baalapa.n.dita Sutta, Fools and Wise Men, we read about the characteristics of a fool. A fool ‘thinks bad thoughts, speaks bad words, and does bad deeds’. The fool sufers in three ways: firstly by finding out and knowing that what he does is wrong, secondly by seeing the kinds of punishment that fools experience and thirdly when he is overwhelmed by thinking about the evil actions he performed in the past. These actions ‘cover him, overspread him, and envelop him’ like ‘the shadow of a great mountain peak in the evening covers, overspreads, and envelops the earth’. He sorrows and grieves and fears his next ‘destination’ and indeed the following descriptions of unhappy destinies makes for very distrubing reading, concluding with: “Bhikkhus, suppose a gambler at the very first unlucky throw loses his child and his wife and all his property and furthermore goes into bondage himself, yet an unlucky throw such as that is negligible; it is a far more unlucky throw when a fool who misconducts himself in body, speech, and mind, on the dissolution of the obody, after death, reappears in a state of deprivation, in an unhappy destination, in perdition, even in hell. This is the complete perfection of the fool’s grade.” Surely we don’t wish any family members or anyone else such further grief or anguish such as that of the third kind above when they are overwhlemed by thinking about past evil deeds, especially in their old age and prompted by any resentment or need to clear the air on our part? After all, we have the Dhamma for refuge and for understanding of our real problems. If we have the chance, it’s better to help them to reflect on kusala (good deeds and thoughts) and to show metta and forgiveness so there won’t be any unnecessary anxiety. “Then the wise man thinks: ‘I have not done what is wicked. I have done what is good, I have done what is wholesome, I have made myself a shelter from anguish. When I pass away, I shall go to the destination of those who have not done what is evil...who have made themselves a shelter from anguish.’ He does not sorrow, grieve, and lament, he does not weep beating his breast and become distraught.” I hope this helps a little. Metta, Sarah * Wednesday was a holiday here (Buddha's birthday!!)and we took our evening stroll along the bamboo snake path. I could see our Chief Executive (Hong Kong's No 1) walking along in the opposite direction. I had time to work up a few sharp comments to make about the mess he's made of things here since the Handover including the SARS fiasco, but Jon gave me reminders of metta and begged me not to embarrass him by saying anything. It was touch and go but there was just enough restraint and a touch of metta, so I managed to just give a friendly 'good evening' and let the story go. All anatta and depending on conditions of course;-) ========= 33413 From: christine_forsyth Date: Fri May 28, 2004 1:10am Subject: Re: Concentration/Victor: was: I have a wonderful wife Hello KenH, Victor,and all, KenH to Victor: "Thanks for your help. However, I do believe you have jumped to the wrong conclusion. What is meant here by, "A bhikkhu who is concentrated understands things as they really are?" I think this refers to a moment (or moments) of vipassana." ---------- Bhikkhu Bodhi's notes to the first lines of SN 56.1, the sutta Victor quoted: 'At. Saavatthi. "Bhikkhus, develop concentration. A bhikkhu who is concentrated understands things as they really are. [note 375] note 375: As at 22:5; ---------- And SN 22.5 (5) Concentration reads: Thus have I heard. At Saavatthi .... There the Blessed One said this: "Bhikkhus, develop concentration. A bhikkhu who is concentrated understands thins as they really are. "And what does he understand as it really is? The origin and passing away of form; the origin and passing away of feeling; the origin and passing away of perception; the origin and passing away of volitional formations; the origin and passing away of consciousness. (rest snipped for brevity). metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "yu_zhonghao" > wrote: > > Hi Ken H and all, > > > > Panna/wisdom also depends on concentration: > > > > SN 56.1 Concentration [1] > > > > At Savatthi. "Bhikkhus, develop concentration. A bhikkhu who is > > concentrated understands things as they really are. > > "And what does he understands as it really is? > 33414 From: Sarah Date: Fri May 28, 2004 1:16am Subject: Re: [dsg] Philip, Dhammasangani and war on web Dear Nina, You wrote to Philip on this thread: --- nina van gorkom wrote: > N: See what Mike said about this: < The present > moment is the only dhamma work ground, and only insight, understanding, > malleability and so on to do the work--no you, I, us or them at all, > except > as distracting delusions. > In the Co to the satipatthana sutta the word > kammathana (often translated as meditation subject) stands for > satipatthana. > Buddhaghosa often mentions the three characteristics as kammathana of > vipassana. Remember the two meanings of jhana: absorption in the > meditation > subjects of samatha and: in vipassana, penetrating the three > characteristics > of realities. We should not attach too much importance to a term but > look at > the context. .... When we were last in Bkk, K.Sujin was talking briefly about these two meanings of jhana and particularly the second as you say 'in vipassana, penetrating the three characteristics of realities'. Afterwards I was trying to find a reference but wasn't sure where to look. Could you give me one or a past post with one. Is it referring to samma samadhi when arising with lokuttara cittas or at each moment of vipassana? Thanks in advance. Metta, Sarah ======= 33415 From: Sarah Date: Fri May 28, 2004 1:46am Subject: Re: Sila -> Samadhi -> Panna (Re: [dsg] Re: I have a wonderful wife) Hi Howard, --- upasaka@a... wrote: > A long while ago Jon and I had an exchange of posts on the role > of > concentration. I can't seem to find those posts, which I *thought* I had > saved. I > do think that there was another sutta, similar to the ones mentioned > above, > that says about the same thing, except it also shows how later factors > lead to > new, higher-level versions of earlier factors, inducing me to make a > spiral > simile. Jon, do you have copies of that earlier exchange between us? .... Howard, I just went to escribe and keyed in 'spiral': http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/ This was the first message you're referring to, I think: http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/m10274.html Perhaps you can repost the relevant parts. Your further posts and Jon's can be found on the escribe page, but the subject heading changes, so just look for your names or other posts with 'spiral' following this one. Hope this is what you had in mind. Metta, Sarah ====== 33416 From: Sarah Date: Fri May 28, 2004 2:15am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: 'Meaning fully drawn out' vs. 'meaning to be inferred' Hi Victor, --- yu_zhonghao wrote: > Let me put it this way: > > Suppose I asked someone: "Have you had dinner tonight?" And he > replied: "I usually have steak for dinner, with mashed potatos and > green beans" and went on describing the details of what he usually > has for dinner. Since his reply has nothing to do with what I > asked, then I asked again "So have you had dinner tonight?" And he > went on with what he likes for dinner, the best dinner he's ever had. > > While I understood his reply, it had nothing to do with the > question "Have you had dinner tonight?" and the answer to this > question is simply either an affirmative "Yes, I have had dinner > tonight" or a negative "No, I haven't had dinner tonight" or if he > did not know, he could reply "I am not sure"/"I don't know." .... And let me put my comments this way: Did the Buddha ever recommend or suggest that all Yes/No questions should at all times be answered with a ‘Yes’, ‘No’ or ‘Don’t know’ reply? ...... > AN > > 11.19: > > > > "Abandon what is unskillful, monks..... > > <....> > > "Develop what is skillful, monks..... > > <.....> > > S:> > A direct question for you, Victor: What does the abandoning or > developing > > in terms of the khandhas? .... V:> I am not sure what your question mean. As I see it, the question is > not formulated properly in grammar. .... S: I agree it wasn’t very clear. Let me give some options. Do you see the Abandoning and Developing in the good sutta extract you quoted as being performed by: a) Self b) Panna, accompanied by other eightfold path factors c) Meditation as defined by sitting cross-legged in a quiet room,focussing on breath (coffee optional for Phil) d) a fuzzy combination of a), b) and c) Metta, Sarah ===== 33417 From: icarofranca Date: Fri May 28, 2004 2:19am Subject: Re: [dsg] 'Birth is suffering, old age is suffering, death is suffering....' Hi Larry! > Dukkha has a cause. Does impermanence and anatta have a cause? That´s a good question! Dukkha has inmanent desire of all beings as immediate cause, but Anicca and Anatta sound like an "ad posteriori" refinement of Buddha´s thought. Mettaya, Ícaro 33418 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri May 28, 2004 2:45am Subject: Re: [dsg] Perseverance, wishing to listen Hi Howard, op 26-05-2004 20:09 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: > >> One of our friends asked how we should study Dhamma. Acharn Sujin said that >> listening and considering are conditions for the understanding of the >> Dhamma. He wondered whether there are other conditions for the development >> of right understanding apart from listening. Can one do something else about >> it? Acharn Sujin explained that each moment is conditioned and that wishing >> to do something specific in order to have more moments of satipatthåna is >> only thinking, a nåma that is conditioned. Listening helps to understand >> conditions for each moment that arises. >> > ==================== H: What about wishing to listen and consider? Is that not specific? (And by "wishing" I don't mean idle desire, but volitionally directing attention.) N: It is not easy to answer this Q. because the questioner, before taking action, has to know first of all his own citta: is it kusala desire, thus, chanda (wish to do) that is kusala, or is it lobha? It is difficult for the Dhamma student to know this precisely, but it is most urgent. The Dhamma is very subtle and we need to give it much thought, lest we do not go on the wrong Path, the Path of lobha. H: If that can occur, why not wishing to maintain mindful awareness, or wishing to > maintain concentration on a meditation subject for the purpose of samatha > bhavana? N: All ways of bhavana are to be developed with right understanding. That is, right understanding of the source of all our actions: the citta appearing at this moment. As to the word maintaining: this refers to the fourth right effort: maintaining and developing the kusala that has arisen, so that it increases. The four right efforts cannot arise without panna, no matter we think of samatha or of vipassana. The Dhamma student has to take into account also the other three right efforts that pertain to akusala not yet arisen, akusala that has arisen, kusala that has not yet arisen. It is indispensable to know precisely akusala and kusala when they arise. I take as an example the Brahmaviharas, since I just listen to a Thai tape about this subject. A.Sujin stresses here the perfection of truthfulness and sincerity and also that of determination. We need to take the Dhammasangani in hand: metta and the other brahmaviharas are cetasikas, not self. Cetasikas perform their functions, not we. We have to consider the near and far ennemies of each of the brahmaviharas, so carefully described in the Visuddhimagga. We read the texts, but, they have to be verified in daily life when we are with other people. We have to be truthful, and find out when kusala citta arises and when akusala citta. When we have compassion and there is sorrow on account of the other person's suffering, there is dosa, not compassion. Thus, right understanding is needed above all. This stems from listening, discussing, considering. The latent tendencies of ignorance and wrong view are so stubborn. Listening is stressed because there are so much ignorance and wrong view about kusala, akusala, about all dhammas. When panna has grown it knows the right conditions for maintaining and developing samatha and vipassana. And this without any idea of self who can maintain kusala. But this is the result of a gradual development. When the beginning Dhamma student thinks that he wants to maintain kusala, he may forget that this depends on the right conditions. As to the four right efforts in vipassana, these are right effort of the eightfold Path and they cannot arise without right understanding of the eightfold Path. When there is right mindfulness and right understanding of a nama or rupa, there is right effort already, no need of trying to enhance it. When listening is stressed, this does not mean wait with kusala actions. But all the while cittas can be considered: are they kusala or akusala? Is there self involvement or not? A. Sujin stresses the connection between metta and sila. Also: sila is not only abstention, also helping and giving respect are sila: good actions through speech and deeds. Metta and sila go together. But, we have to know what true metta is: different from any form of attachment, different from wanting to get something for ourselves, like praise, esteem. You asked about a post written before about the spiral of sila, samadhi and panna. Yes, I remember. You explained how they all develop together, that sila goes on developing and becomes perfected through panna, if I do not misquote you. I like to add: the Vis. used the triple method as a method of teaching, not in order to set a specific order. This is the impressive beginning of the Vis. where a sutta text is quoted: "When a wise man, established well in Virtue, Develops Consciousness [calm] and Understanding, Then as a bhikkhu ardent and sagacious He succeeds in disentangling this tangle (S1, 13)." Note: in every line panna is implied! A wise man, Understanding, sagacious, and panna disentangles. Whatever text I read I cannot help seeing satipatthana implied. Whatever subject the Buddha taught was different from all other teachers. Nina. 33419 From: htootintnaing Date: Fri May 28, 2004 3:01am Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 017 ) Dear Dhamma Friends, In a life, patisandhi citta or liking consciousness is the first and cuti citta or dying consciousness is the last. In between are bhavanga cittas or life-continuum if there is no vithi cittas or orderly-serialised consciousness which arise due to conditions including appearing of senses. These serial consciousness or vithi cittas starts with panca dvara avajjana citta or door-checking mind. This citta is followed by panca vinnana citta or five-sense-consciousness. These five sense- consciousness are sight-consciousness at eye called cakkhu vinnana citta, sound-consciousness at ear called sota vinnana citta, smell- consciousness at nose called ghana vinnana, taste-consciousness at tongue called jivha vinnana citta and touch-consciousness at body called kaya vinnana citta. Starting with avajjana citta, followed by one of 5 sense- consciousness, the sense or arammana or the object is then received by sampaticchana citta or receiving mind. It just receives and does not fully know with wisdom and effort is not needed in it arising. As soon as sampaticchana citta passes away, next arises santirana citta or investigating mind. Santirana means 'look into' 'examine in detail' 'scrutinize' 'investigate'. Again this citta passes away without ever fully aware of detailed and analytical knowledge of the object as there is no wisdom with this citta. Next arises votthapana citta which is manodvaravajjana citta. Votthapana means 'to determine' 'to decide' 'to judge'. This citta just determines that the essence of the object should be felt and fully realised in such and such way. This citta just decides or determines what to do and he is not doing so. So manodvara avajjana cittas are not kusala or akusala but it is kiriya citta that is non- resultant-non-kamma-producing citta. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 33420 From: Philip Date: Fri May 28, 2004 3:51am Subject: Conditioned? Concentration? ( was Re: I have a wonderful wife Hello James, and all Thanks for the kind words about my recent posts, James. Yes, I've been feeling "fresh and open" about Dhamma study. I think credit goes to Nina's "Buddhism in Daily Life" (as well as Abhidhamma in Daily Life.) It has a gentle yet insistent rhythm to it that gives me a lot of confidence about life and Dhamma, yet allows me to feel relaxed rather than manic like I was when I first came across Abhidhamma. Ultimate credit goes to the Buddha - no kidding! - but if we don't find a teacher who communicates the Dhamma to us with the right balance of strict insistence and gentle encouragement, we don't get far. Thanks also for your feedback on my questions. J: > The Buddha did not define Right Concentration as the concentration > inherent to each citta. The Buddha defined Right Concentration as > Jhana This morning, before posting, I did a search at access to insight on "right concentration", because though I was familiar with the famous jhana passage, I was curious to know what else was said about right concentration, because jhana is simply not an option for me, and I suspect it is not an option for all but a few lucky folks who have the right environment/circumstances. I found this sutta, MN 117, but I can't begin to understand it, yet. However, it seems to define right concentration in the context of other path factors, and could be of interest for those of us who are not/cannot be jhana seekers. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/majjhima/mn117.html J: > I do believe that there is concentration inherent to each citta but > this concentration is not of a liberating quality. Ph: That seems like a fair statement - but take that concetration out of each citta and what would you have? Mental chaos. Thus, perhaps it could be said that while not being liberating on its own, the concentration inherent to each citta contributes to liberation in a absolutely vital way. J: > Actually, this > concentration is of the nature of craving because it is the factor > which causes the arising of each particular citta. Just as each > raindrop on the surface of a lake will cause a tiny splash, each > arising of rupa will cause a subsequent arising of nama?End each > nama is `concentrated' on the rupa which caused it to arise. >This is samsara and it is not liberating. (snip) Ph: This is interesting. I see your point. I can see that since there are more akusala cittas arising than kusala ones, concentration contributes to remaining in samsara. Like split second contractions of a minute bellows feeding a fire? I really don't know enough to be sure if what you're saying is correct or not, but it is interesting. If anyone else could confirm James' explanation above I'd be grateful. J:> I agree with you that meditation is very important (crucial) to > Buddhist practice. Ph: Well, I think I said it is certainly very helpful for me as a beginner, but I added that I could see how it could become less important for those who have developped satipatthana in their daily life. And I can also see that it may indeed be vital - I just don't know yet. I thought of useful analogy today. When you learns to swim, you learn in a pool, where the water is calm and allows you to concentrate on stroke elements with the least possible amount of distraction. The stroke elements can be experienced clearly. If you tried to learn to swim in a choppy sea, it would be much harder. If you learn to swim in a pool, then head out to sea, you fall into the stroke you learned in the pool and can better navigate in the sea. Of course, if you learn to swim in a pool, but never leave the pool, you're wasting your potential as a swimmer. Of course something subtle like vipassana can't be compared to something mechanical like swimming, but I think the idea that awareness one develops in the calm of the cushion helps lead to more awareness out in the choppy sea of one's daily life. Once one has become an adept swimmer, it is much more interesting to swim in a lake or out at sea than in a pool. This seems like common sense and can be confirmed by our experience, both in swimming and mindfulness, I'd say. Nice talking with you James. Here's hoping that this topic/thread doesn't develop in a way that causes peacable James to retreat in the face of an uprising by (unintentially) obnoxious James! You know I say that with affection... :) Metta, Phil 33421 From: htootintnaing Date: Fri May 28, 2004 4:18am Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 018 ) Dear Dhamma Friends, In a series of vithi cittas when there arises one of five senses such as sight, sound, smell, taste, and touch, the existing bhavanga citta series has to stop and after 3 citta moments for atita bhavanga citta or past life-continuum, bhavanga calana citta or vibrating bhavanga, and bhavangupaccheda or the last bhavanga citta which is cutting up bhavanga citta series, vithi citta starts to arise. 1st citta in the vithi series is pancadvara avajjana citta. The 2nd citta is pancavinnana citta. The 3rd citta is sampaticchana citta or receiving mind. The 4th citta is santirana citta or investigating mind. The 5th citta is vothapana citta or determining mind, which is manodvara avajjana citta. This citta is a kiriya citta which does not give rise to any kamma while the preceeding 3 cittas pancavinnana citta, sampaticchana citta, and santirana citta are vipaka cittas or resultant consciousness. After passing away of votthapana citta which is manodvara avajjana citta, there arises the 1st javana citta. Javana means 'swift' and quick movement. Javana cittas come in 7 successive series in most of the vithi citta series. These 7 cittas are mental impulse and all these cittas fully sense the object with full feeling. Depending on the conditions, there may or may not be wisdom or panna. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 33422 From: robmoult Date: Fri May 28, 2004 5:21am Subject: [dsg] Re: feeling? Hi Larry, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@w... wrote: > How about if we throw out the entire dependent arising formula as a > conceptual fabrication _except_ as it applies to citta process? Ultimate > reality is only what we experience here and now. Isn't that only citta > process? Some how or another feeling must enter into every citta process > in such a way that we can say contact conditions feeling and feeling > conditions javana cittas. Can you explain citta process in that way? I need to think about this for a bit. I will get back to you. Keep in mind that the citta process is also a conceptual fabrication; the only reality is the current rupa and the current mental state (citta + cetasikas). Please keep in mind that dependent arising dates back to the Suttas whereas dhamma theory (paramattha dhammas) and the citta process were not articulated until 1500 years later (10th century). The basic roots of dhamma theory and the citta process come from the Suttas, but articulating them in the manner you are speaking did not happen until Acariya Anuruddha wrote the Abhidhammatthasangaha. Metta, Rob M :-) 33423 From: icarofranca Date: Fri May 28, 2004 5:26am Subject: Re: Impersonality Hi Chris! > Oh Icaro! quel horreur! You have been winning under false > pretences!!!! > > NO Australian Railway goes to Darwin through Queensland. The ONLY > Railway to Darwin goes through South Australia!! (Capital city > Adelaide - from whence our Moderator Jon comes). To check: > http://www.railpage.org.au/railmaps/ --------------------------------------------------------------------- Owh My Gohd!!!! So I must go headlong to Darwin - Alice Springs - Tarcoola - Adelaide!!!! And after this go up to Sidney and then, finally, Brisbane!!! My usual challenge at Railroad Tyconn II, Australia scenario,is begin at Darwin and Katherine, and then tennant creek and Alice Springs - the rail machines are very demanding at the 70´s. My dare turn up to Bracaldine - Rockhampton - Brisbane is to risky at the last end! Simple!!! You aussies seem not to be so dull anyway!!! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Now - what would a good buddhist do under these circumstances? :-) > Return the winnings? (gasp! and double gasp!!) Say nothing - the > intention at the time was pure?? (Or was it??!!) Ah, decisions, > decisions ... :-) As a true follower of the Dhamma and devotee of > the Abhidhamma, I have every confidence that you will make > the "RIGHT!!" decision. :-) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Take a deep breath, pick up the faster and less demanding train on your schedule and begin carrying up and down people and bauxite from Katherine to Darwin, making a lot of money meanwhile. With the bless of Buddha there will be an Aluminium facility at Tennant creek where to put all the Katherine´s bauxite, and perhaps a tool factory at Barrow´s Creek or even at Alice Springs to keep the economical booze flowing on. And thanks to Vipassana, Abhidhamma and the map produced out by Msr. Christine Forsyth I WON´T go straight to Rockhampton and Brisbane, I will go ahead to Adelaide and build a rail station in front of Jon´s manor...hahahahah!!!!!! :-))))))))))))))))))))))) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Those stalwarts at the Aterro do Flamengo Playground must be > expatriate members of British Commonwealth countries. (Cricket has > among the highest number of participants of sports in the world, > rivalling soccer - Indians and Pakistanis are fanatical players in > their tens of millions). --------------------------------------------------------------------- WOW! Rock in Rio! Volley in Rio!! Beach Soccer in Rio!!! And now... The Apocalypse!!!! CRICKET IN RIO!!!! I hope to survive the experience! : - ) Mettaya, Ícaro > > metta and peace, > Christine > ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- > P.S. > (Do you think there could be an infectious virus going around whose > symptoms are exclamation marks!!!!, CAPITAL letters, question > marks??, smiles :-), and a sprinkling of utterances in foreign > languages??!!) > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "icarofranca" 33424 From: Sarah Date: Fri May 28, 2004 6:25am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Impersonality Hi Icaro (and Queenslanders), How did you get from 'Impersonality' to CRICKET IN RIO? I must have missed an important connection on the track..... --- icarofranca wrote: > WOW! > Rock in Rio! > Volley in Rio!! > Beach Soccer in Rio!!! > And now... The Apocalypse!!!! > CRICKET IN RIO!!!! > > I hope to survive the experience! : - ) .... No, No, No, ICARO!!! You’ve got it all wrong. The real survival test in RIO is the POROROCA which I read about recently in the newspaper and just checked google to find more about this loooong tidal wave surf deep in the Amazon*. Now this is the way to attract those Queenslanders and set them on the right track - offer a Pororoca meditation, Abhidhamma and lots of impersonality in one hand, coffee in the other (special concession) and forget all those post-colonial tame sports like cricket. Metta, Sarah p.s apologies to all for setting just one bad example of frivolity here..... *>if they survive. ... Pororoca races upstream for several kilometers, flinging any ... Surfers from Rio de Janeiro travel to ...< >Surfers from Rio de Janeiro travel to the Amazon estuary to catch pororoca in March and April. São Domingo do Capim in the southern part of the estuary hosts an annual surfing competition sponsored by Bad Boy, a manufacturer of surfing apparel. As would be expected in Brazil, the event includes a competition for Miss Surfing Pororoca.< Eyes downcast for the last part...... ================== 33425 From: Philip Date: Fri May 28, 2004 6:47am Subject: Re: [dsg] Perseverance in Dhamma, Ch 2, no 3 Hi Sarah, and all Thanks for your feedback, Sarah. S:> Phil, I understand what you say about your family difficulties and > inclination to speak out very easily.* I'm sure many if not most here also > have had some kind of serious problems in our families. As Nina mentioned > recently, forgiveness is also a kind of dana (generosity). I also used to > have quite a lot of resentment about some family issues, but found it very > helpful to be reminded that all the events were in the past and to have > metta for those involved while there was the opportunity. Ph: Yes. Forgiveness as dana. Bus what is the greatest gift we can give someone? What is the only real way to repay the great debt we owe our parents, according to the Buddha? I forget the details, but there is the sutta in AN about how even if we carry our parents for X number of years and allow them to Y on us, we cannot repay the debt. It is only by helping them to understand the Buddha's teaching that we can really repay them. It is usually quoted out of context, suggesting that there is absolute duty to our parents, but in full it says that taking care of them in the conventional sense, the physical sense, does not compare to helping them by sharing Dhamma. And to share Dhamma we might have to encourage them to be honest with themselves, don't you think? Not force it, but offer gentle encouragement. That's all I want to do, really. I'm not demanding that he kow tow - just reflect a little, or a lot -whatever he is capable of, with his accumulations. I was very interested by the sutta you quoted: > In MN 129, Baalapa.n.dita Sutta, Fools and Wise Men, we read about the > characteristics of a fool. (snip) You continued : > Surely we don't wish any family members or anyone else such further grief > or anguish such as that of the third kind above when they are overwhlemed > by thinking about past evil deeds, especially in their old age and > prompted by any resentment or need to clear the air on our part? After > all, we have the Dhamma for refuge and for understanding of our real > problems. If we have the chance, itd better to help them to reflect on > kusala (good deeds and thoughts) and to show metta and forgiveness so > there won't be any unnecessary anxiety. Ph: I do want to happy friendly relations with my father-in-law in the future and I want to help him to make peace with himself. That is not for me to do, I know - conditions will arise for him in this lifetime, or they won't. And yet, we are told in the sutta I referred to that the only true way to repay our debt is by sharing the Dhamma. I don't think he will "reflect on kusala (good deeds and thoughts) just being I am kind and forgiving, because in this society it is demanded, and ugly things are to be swept under the carpet. I agree that clinging to our stories about people and holding on to resentments is unskillful and just leads to akusala - how true indeed. But is there not sometimes learning from our own stories? Not clinging to them, but looking honestly at the way our lives have unfolded. I am willing to let go of the story, but should my father- in-law? Can't he learn from it and lighten some of his accumulations before he dies? Isn't offering the opportunity to apologize deeply and sincerely to his daughter a valuable gift? We know that holding on to regrets about akusala just leads to more akusala, but is there no place for a lightening of khamma through some kind of repentance in Buddhism? I guess not. Maybe it's the ghost of religions past (ie Xtianity) that makes me think about repentance, or maybe it's all the insistence in Japan on "hansei" (looking back and reflecting on one's errors) but I think he could benefit from facing what he did before he dies. I'm not going to insist on it, but I think I would like to offer him the opportunity. And he's not on his deathbed or anything. He's a frisky 60 something. He has time to learn this time around. > The best help for Naomi is to encourage her to let it go?Eand develop > metta and understanding. Ph: Yes, and yet...she doesn't have the refuge of the Buddha, the Dhamma and the Sangha yet. I have to think about protecting her in conventional ways in addition to continuing to provide the influence of the Buddha's teaching indirectly. (It's becoming clear that she has an aversion of any explicit talk about Dhamma - she thinks, rightly, that my interest in Dhamma is dissolving my will to succeed in the marketplace, as we've talked about before. Making more of an effort in the marketplace is a prerequisite to sharing the Buddha's teaching with her.) >There is no abuse now and the present is all that > counts. As you said, accumulations are complex - her brother suffered less > but his life is far more of a mess. In the end, we cannot blame our > problems on the way we've been treated. The 3 poisons have been > accumulating for aeons of lifetimes. As you hint at, the clinging to the > people involved in this drama and desire to protect....?Elies at the root > of the real problem. In other words, it comes back to self again. Ph: Yes, this is all true. I really do think that this will remain in mind the next time I deal with him. Actually, I'm glad you quoted that "clinging to people", because I thought what I wanted to say after was "clinging to stories about people." The liberating thing about knowing that, in the absolute sense, there are no people is that we don't have to cling to their stories. There *are* people, of course, and we are freed by not clinging to past stories to believe in the possibility of change. Every time I see him I can see a fresh new bundle of possibility. So, not clinging to the stories of others, but learning from our own stories. I think there is something to be said for that. I would like to offer N's dad a chance to learn from his story. And I would like to offer him the Dhamma, someday. S:> I hope this helps a little. Ph: Indeed it did. I will be putting this in the folder along iwth your advice on the money issue. You're a good friend, Sarah. S: > * Wednesday was a holiday here (Buddha's birthday!!)and we took our > evening stroll along the bamboo snake path. I could see our Chief > Executive (Hong Kong's No 1) walking along in the opposite direction. I > had time to work up a few sharp comments to make about the mess he's made > of things here since the Handover including the SARS fiasco, but Jon gave > me reminders of metta and begged me not to embarrass him by saying > anything. It was touch and go but there was just enough restraint and a > touch of metta, so I managed to just give a friendly 'good evening' and > let the story go. All anatta and depending on conditions of course;- Ph: This reminds me of the time I saw the xenophobic governor of Tokyo Shintaro Ishihara at an art exhibition, wandering with cronies, and I had an opportunity to lambaste him. But I didn't. Didn't say "good afternoon" to him, mind you. I have regretted not being a little more discreet about posting personal matters like this here. I suspect I may be more discreet in the future, so if anyone has been made uncomfortable or irritated, thank you for your patience. Any further replies to this off-list, please. Thanks! :) Metta, Phil 33426 From: Date: Fri May 28, 2004 2:46am Subject: Re: [dsg] Conditioned? Concentration? ( was Re: I have a wonderful wife Hi, James (and Phil) - In a message dated 5/28/04 3:10:57 AM Eastern Daylight Time, buddhatrue@y... writes: > > Friend Phil, > > I have really been enjoying your posts of late. They are fresh and > open. In this post you state a few open-ended questions which > express some confusion. I am going to offer you my perspective on > this issue. I have covered these points in previous posts in this > group, but you were not a member then and missed them, so I will > cover them again. > > The Buddha did not define Right Concentration as the concentration > inherent to each citta. The Buddha defined Right Concentration as > Jhana: > > "And what is right concentration? There is the case where a monk -- > quite withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful (mental) > qualities -- enters &remains in the first jhana: rapture &pleasure > born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought &evaluation. > With the stilling of directed thought &evaluation, he enters & > remains in the second jhana: rapture &pleasure born of composure, > unification of awareness free from directed thought &evaluation -- > internal assurance. With the fading of rapture he remains in > equanimity, mindful, &fully alert, and physically sensitive of > pleasure. He enters &remains in the third jhana, and of him the > Noble Ones declare, 'Equanimous &mindful, he has a pleasurable > abiding.' With the abandoning of pleasure &pain -- as with the > earlier disappearance of elation &distress -- he enters &remains > in the fourth jhana: purity of equanimity &mindfulness, neither > pleasure nor pain. This is called right concentration." > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn45-008.html > > I do believe that there is concentration inherent to each citta but > this concentration is not of a liberating quality. Actually, this > concentration is of the nature of craving because it is the factor > which causes the arising of each particular citta. Just as each > raindrop on the surface of a lake will cause a tiny splash, each > arising of rupa will cause a subsequent arising of nama…and each > nama is `concentrated' on the rupa which caused it to arise. This > is samsara and it is not liberating. It is only the concentration > that frees the mind from the pull of rupa, namely Jhana > concentration, which can be truly liberating. > > I agree with you that meditation is very important (crucial) to > Buddhist practice. Sometimes that meditation is very casual, like > the morning cup of coffee you have with your meditation (BTW, I do > that too! ;-)). Sometimes it is much more focused and energetic, > with no pauses to drink coffee. Both of these are good practices. > Of course, eventually, they need to lead to Jhana states. And this > isn't my opinion; this is what the Buddha taught. Also, the Buddha > taught that the Brahma-Viharas can be used as a vehicle to reach > each of the four mundane Jhanas: Loving-Kindness, Compassion, and > Sympathetic Joy can be used as the kasina for the first three > Jhanas, and Equanimity can lead to the Fourth Jhana. > > Hope this helps and I hope you keep up the delightful posts! > > Metta, James > > ============================== I both agree with you and disagree with you on this one, James. I agree with you about right concentration as being mainly defined as attaining the jhanas, especially the 1st four, and I agree that the ordinary level of concentration typically accompanying each mindstate (i.e., the degree of inclination for "the same" object of consciousness to be repeated in the next and subsequent states) is not a liberating level of concentration. But where we seem to disagree is on the issue of where the concentration occurs. As I see it, every mental function that operates does so within a single mindstate, though it may continue in subsequent ones. I understand a mindstate to end and a new one to begin whenever there is any change in the make-up of experience consisting in some factor ceasing, or another commencing, or both. I don't mean to imply by this that a mindstate must be instantaneous - in fact, I think it is probably better represented by a cosine wave, growing, peaking, and subsiding, than by a discrete spike, or, better yet, by a family of such waves, one for each of the constituents of that mindstate. But all operations that occur at all are based within individual mindstates. With regard to concentration, in particular, the concentration that consists of sticking pretty much with the same content (arammana) for a lengthy period, with little swapping out to other objects is concentration in the conventional sense. I take that sort of "concentration" to be a mind-construct/pa~n~natti (Is the singular 'pa~n~natto'?), and as being our way of grasping a kind of relation among mindstates, and it has as its basis the paramattha dhamma of one-pointedness which I interpret to mean the tendency (a sankhara) for the content of a mindstate to repeat. In other words, James, I have been infected to some extent by the Abhidhammic virus! ;-)) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 33427 From: icarofranca Date: Fri May 28, 2004 6:56am Subject: [dsg] Re: Impersonality Dear Sarah > How did you get from 'Impersonality' to CRICKET IN RIO? I must have missed > an important connection on the track..... ---------------------------------------------------------------------- It´s because there is only one Cricket team in Rio: a group of old and nice ladies e conspicuous gentlemen dreesed in white that gather up themselves at Weekends, just too similar to...ahn...you know...you all here at DSG are a group of old and nice ladies and conspicuos gentlemen, that usually gather up themselves, dressed in white...very very similar!!!! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > No, No, No, ICARO!!! You've got it all wrong. > The real survival test in RIO is the POROROCA which I read about recently > in the newspaper and just checked google to find more about this loooong > tidal wave surf deep in the Amazon*. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- NO, NO, NO, Sarah!!!! Rio and the Pororoca are more than 6.000 km afar! Of course, you could get a mad surfer in Rio that wants to tame such tidal wave, but is almost so "usual" than to put rail tracks on Queensland!!!! --------------------------------------------------------------------- Now this is the way to attract those > Queenslanders and set them on the right track - offer a Pororoca > meditation, Abhidhamma and lots of impersonality in one hand, coffee in > the other (special concession) and forget all those post-colonial tame > sports like cricket. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Are you aussies always so smart ??? With such Abhidhamma meditation and dreams of Pororoca surfing it will be easy to go straight ahead to Darwin, Alice Springs, Rockhampton and Brisbane ( yes! I will spare Jon´s manor at Adelaide all the fuss of a virtual rail station so near...hahahahahah!!!!), half-steam, half-eletric lines, with lots of money on profits! And for the miriad of lumpem hard-bit Paquistanese and hindustani workers on my virtual railroad...Panis et Circensis, i.e., their national favourite sport:DIGITAL CRICKET! My name will be top of the pops on Railroad Tycoon II !!! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > >Surfers from Rio de Janeiro travel to the Amazon estuary to catch > pororoca in March and April. São Domingo do Capim in the southern part of > the estuary hosts an annual surfing competition sponsored by Bad Boy, a > manufacturer of surfing apparel. As would be expected in Brazil, the event > includes a competition for Miss Surfing Pororoca.< > > Eyes downcast for the last part...... ---------------------------------------------------------------------- MAD all of them, I say unto you! With wonderful beaches, big waves, lots of beer and fun here in Rio, these would be heroes want to tame the Pororoca! May Buddha has misericordy of their illusory souls! :-))))))))))))))))))) Mettaya, Ícaro 33428 From: Date: Fri May 28, 2004 2:56am Subject: Re: [dsg] Concentration/Victor: was: I have a wonderful wife Hi, Ken (and Victor) - In a message dated 5/28/04 3:38:45 AM Eastern Daylight Time, kenhowardau@y... writes: > >Hi Ken H and all, > > > >Panna/wisdom also depends on concentration: > > > >SN 56.1 Concentration [1] > > > >At Savatthi. "Bhikkhus, develop concentration. A bhikkhu who is > >concentrated understands things as they really are. > > "And what does he understands as it really is? > > > Hi Victor, > > Thanks for your help. However, I do believe you have jumped to the > wrong conclusion. What is meant here by, "A bhikkhu who is > concentrated understands things as they really are?" I think this > refers to a moment (or moments) of vipassana. > > At a moment of vipassana, there is right concentration. ==================== As I see it, your reading is the exact opposite of the normal meaning of the English sentence. The normal understanding of "A bhikkhu who is concentrated understands things as they really are," would not be "At a moment of vipassana, there is right concentration," but, instead, would be more along the lines of "At a moment of right concentration (or following in the wake of such) is vipassana." It is not vipassana that is being given as causal condition, nor is simultaneity being stressed. What is being asserted is the role that concentration plays as a condition for wisdom. Moreover, it seem to me that this meaning is crystal clear, and I suspect that interpreting otherwise is a consequence of being uncomfortable with regard to concentration and any suggestion of the worth of its cultivation. But this last, of course, is just conjecture on my part. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 33429 From: htootintnaing Date: Fri May 28, 2004 7:19am Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 019 ) Dear Dhamma Friends, As manodvara avajjana citta or mind-door-contemplating consciousness has determined the object, next arising citta the 1st javana citta senses the object with response along with a particular act. This act is mostly akusala or unwholesome in daily life. As we can see in our daily life, most acts in mental impulse are unwholesome or akusala. For unleanred person, as soon as he gets up from his bed, he will first think he is humgry as he has to fast over night when he was asleep. The thoughts make him to choose from a varieties of alternatives. When he does not have the chance, then he would feel sorry ( aversion ) and when he gets what he wants he would feel pleased ( lobha ). When someone is in grief then he would be in the state of wandering spreading mind and the act in javana cittas will be ignorance or delusion ( moha ). An alternative is he may have had a plan to offer food and robes to a group of members of sangha. As soon as he gets up from the bed, he has to plan with good mood to offer those thing. At that time javana cittas may be in the act of adosa and alobha. Another possibility is the he may be practising samatha or vipassana bhavana. If so javana cittas would be in the act of amoha or panna. Panna is always associated with alobha or non-attachment, adosa or non-aversion all the time. If the mental impulse or javana cittas arise in those who are arahats, then all javana will be kiriya javana cittas and there is no act or there is no kamma producing action in all those javana cittas. If the 1st javana citta is akusala all the following 6 javana cittas have to be akusala cittas. If the 1st is kusala without wisdom or dvihetuka citta, then all following javana cittas will be dvihetuka javana cittas. If the 1st is tihetuka citta, all the following javana cittas will be tihetuka cittas. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 33430 From: Date: Fri May 28, 2004 3:31am Subject: Re: Sila -> Samadhi -> Panna (Re: [dsg] Re: I have a wonderful wife) Hi, Sarah - In a message dated 5/28/04 5:26:55 AM Eastern Daylight Time, sarahdhhk@y... writes: > > Hi Howard, > > --- upasaka@a... wrote: > > A long while ago Jon and I had an exchange of posts on the role > >of > >concentration. I can't seem to find those posts, which I *thought* I had > >saved. I > >do think that there was another sutta, similar to the ones mentioned > >above, > >that says about the same thing, except it also shows how later factors > >lead to > >new, higher-level versions of earlier factors, inducing me to make a > >spiral > >simile. Jon, do you have copies of that earlier exchange between us? > .... > Howard, I just went to escribe and keyed in 'spiral': > http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/ > > This was the first message you're referring to, I think: > http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/m10274.html > > Perhaps you can repost the relevant parts. Your further posts and Jon's > can be found on the escribe page, but the subject heading changes, so just > look for your names or other posts with 'spiral' following this one. > > Hope this is what you had in mind. > > Metta, > > Sarah ============================== Thank you for this! It's exactly what I was looking for. Using escribe I then found another post, one including the one you refer to, that pretty much sums up the whole business. I'm copying it below. With metta, Howard ******************************** From: upasaka@a... Date: Tue Jul 16, 2002 9:35 am Subject: Jon/ More on Spirals Re: [dsg] Re: Vism study - role of jhanas in enlightenment Hi again, Jon - I just read the first two suttas from the book of tens in the A. Nikaya, and they are quite relevant to what we were discussing (growing out of VI, 50). In the first of these, the Buddha puts forth the following chain of conditionality: Virtuous ways of conduct -> Non-remorse -> Gladness -> Joy -> Serenity -> Happiness -> Concentration of the mind -> Knowledge and vision of things as they really are -> Revulsion and dispassion -> Knowledge and vision of liberation. This, of course, is quite similar to the content of VI, 50. What is interesting to me is the material of the very next sutta, the second sutta of the book of tens. It puts forward the very same chain of conditionality as above, but, at the end *circling back* to virtuous ways of conduct once again. And then the sutta closes with the following: "Thus, monks, the preceding qualities flow into the succeeding qualities; the succeeding qualities bring the preceding qualities to perfection, for going from the near shore to the far shore." This is exactly the spiral conditionality that I was suggesting, and is, of course, in harmony with both of our understandings that all the factors affect each other. With metta, Howard In a message dated 7/13/02 10:49:30 AM Eastern Daylight Time, upasaka@a... writes: > > Hi, Jon - > > In a message dated 7/13/02 9:58:19 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > jonoabb@y... writes: > > > > > > Howard > > > > I thought your diagrammatic representation below to be an interesting way > > of presenting the sutta (probably comes naturally to a mathematician!). > > > > --- upasaka@a... wrote: > > > Hi again, Victor (and Jon) - > > > It happens that the role of right concentration is part of what > > is > > > discussed in the the sutta, VI, 50 [Step by Step], from the Anguttara > > > Nikaya > > > (one of the three suttas I mentioned in a post to Jon). > Diagramatically, > > what is said there is the following: > > > > > > Sense control > > > -> > > > Virtue > > > -> > > > Right concentration > > > -> > > > Knowledge and vision of things as they really are > > > -> > > > Revulsion and dispassion > > > -> > > > Knowledge and vision of liberation. > > > > > > The role of Right concentration is, according to this, quite > > pivotal. > > > That was the purpose of my including that sutta in the list of three. > > > > I do not for a moment question the importance of Right Concentration (or > > of any of the 8 path factors for that matter). > > > > However, would you not agree that the sense control, virtue, > > concentration, knowledge and vision, etc, are to be developed > > concurrently, as far as that is possible in the individual case, each > > supporting the development of the other, and not in an exclusively > > sequential manner? > > > -------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > I would, indeed, agree with that. In fact, I picture bhavana (in its > > general sense) as proceeding rather like an ever-widening spiral, so that > "later" factors developed in an interior portion of the spiral are > conditions > for "early" factors developed in more exterior portions (if you can > envisage > what I mean). This sutta happens to display certain basic > conditionalities. > I think it is important in that it shows the fundamental role that right > concentration plays. It shows it as a condition for the arising of > liberative > wisdom, and, by doing so, it may serve as a cautionary note for any folks > who > might happen to downplay the importance of concentration at that formative > stage of practice. > -------------------------------------------------- > > > > > Otherwise, you would have to say that virtue must be perfected before > > Right Concentration can be developed, and sense control even before > > virtue. > > > --------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > That would be a great error. On that basis, one could never get > started! ;-) This is exactly my point with regard to spiral development. A > degree of sense control leads to a degree of virtue, ..., leads to a degree > > of wisdom, leads, yet again, to a further degree of sense control, etc, > around and around, wider and wider. > --------------------------------------------------- > > > > > Jon > > > > > ========================== > With metta, > Howard > ******************************************** /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 33431 From: Htoo Naing Date: Fri May 28, 2004 8:09am Subject: Starting the journey to nibbana ( 02 ) Dear Dhamma Friends, We have learnt many times in suttas what the eight components of Noble Eightfold Path. In the first round, we have passed through different dhammas that might aid our achievement. Those messages are with different headings but the back ground idea is the same. If some messages are missing, and if requested, messages will be delivered to the appropriate destination. We have just started the Journey To Nibbana. Necessary equipment and tools for the journey have been collected. Some knowledge of the tracts have been to some extent learned and all these have been considered. As we have started the journey, we need a good record and need a frequent check where we are and what we have been doing so that we are not missing essential portion of the major tract. Dhamma has its own attributes. It is good at the start and good at the middle and good at the end that is when entering nibbana. Just before entering nibbana, there were no fire that would otherwise made a great pain or suffering. This happens because all fire have been extinguished at an earlier stage before going into nibbana. That earlier stage is refered to at the moment of arahatta magga citta arising. 'Svakkhato bhagavatadhammo'. The Buddha Gotama had preached many dhamma on separate occasions. All these dhammas are good at the start, good at the middle part and good at the end and good through out dhamma preaching. The Buddha preached for 45 years and there had been about 14,636 days in 45 years including extra days for leap years. About 90 days were in Deva realm preaching all Abhidhamma to Devas and Brahmas with the aim giving a chance Himself returning His gratitute to His late mother who was reborn in Deva realm. There have been more than 10,000 suttas as there had been more than 10,000 days as His Buddhahood. There are fewer suttas on the net than actual number exists. Suttas always have the main reason for preaching and the targeted satta/s. A single person may not need to learn every sutta that The Buddha preached. But dhammas are always good and any dhamma whether suttas or abhidhamma or vinaya all throw a good light on dhamma clearly. We have learned suttas several times and some suttas are learned even many times. Just reading, learning, studying, trying to understand the contents in dhamma in whatever form that is whether suttas or vinaya or abhidhamma and in whatever messager like printed materials or audio records or audiovisual records or hearing from real teachers is all just the first stage. This is something like collecting things that might be required during the journey. Now we have started the journey and we are on the way to nibbana trying to approach the Path that is Noble Eightfold Path. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing htootintnaing@y... 33432 From: htootintnaing Date: Fri May 28, 2004 10:51am Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 020 ) Dear Dhamma Friends, A life what we call is a being who exists starts with patisandhi citta or linking consciousness and ends with cuti citta or dying consciousness. In between are part of life. What are there in between patisandhi citta or linking consciousness and cuti citta or dying consciousness? There are uncountable consciousness each lasts just a moment which is said to be one billionth of a blink. After linking consciousness or patisandhi citta, bhavanga citta immediately follows and again it passes away. Similarly at each moment there arise a citta. As long as there is no perceivable 5 senses or 6 senses that is object for attention, bhavanga cittas arise one after another. In the most vivid sense or object, the object which is a rupa starts its full power after one anukhana or sub-moment. At initiation or initial formation of rupa, it is not strong enough to give rise to as an object but only after that initiation. At that time one bhavanga citta upada ( initiation ) has finished. And one bhavanga citta became a past bhavanga citta or atita bhavanga citta. When rupa starts to work as object or arammana, the continuously flowing bhavanga cittas have been disturbed and the citta after past bhavanga citta or atita bhavanga citta seems to be disturbed and quaked, shaked, vibrated, etc etc. That citta is called bhavanga calana citta. Calana means shaking or vibrating. Next arises citta is also bhavanga citta but it is the last bhavanga just before vithi citt starts to arise. That bhavanga citta is called bhavangupaccheda citta. From the 17 cittakkhana or rupa life, 3 citta moments have passed away. There left 14 citta moments. These 14 moments are occupied by cittas in serial order. Numerous Bhavanga Cittas....!Rupa as an object arises here at B1.. Bhavanga_B1.ABC ( Atita Bhavanga Citta ) B2.CBC ( Calana Bhavanga Citta or Bhvangacalana Citta ) B3.UBC ( Upaccheda Bhavanga Citta or Bhavangupaccheda ) Vithi _V1. PAC ( Pancadvara Avajjana Citta ) V2. PVC ( Panca Vinnana Citta ) V3. SCC ( Sampatic-Chana Citta ) V4. STC ( San-Tirana Citta ) V5. VTC ( Vot-Thapana Citta ) V6. 1st JC( First Javana Citta ) V7. 2nd JC( Second Javana Citta ) V8. 3rd JC( Third Javana Citta ) V9. 4th JC( Fourth Javana Citta ) V10.5th JC( Fifth Javana Citta ) V11.6th JC( Sixth Javana Citta ) V12.7th JC( Seventh Javana Citta ) V13.1st TDC( First Tadarammana Citta ) V14.2nd TDC( Second Tadarammana Citta ) Tadarammana citta is retention consciousness. Tadarammana comprises of 'tada' and 'arammana'. Tada means 'then' 'after'. Arammana is object. It just retains the object sensed by javana cittas. Tadarammana citta or retention consciousness arise twice. At the time tadarammana citta passes away, all 17 citta moment have passed away and rupa also completely falls away. So no vithi citta can arise at that time and next citta arises is bhavanga citta or life continuum. In this way our lives starts with patisandhi citta or linking consciousness and it will end up with arising of cuti citta or dying consciousness. In between are bhavanga cittas arise one after another like water flowing in a flowing river. When an object arises, bhavanga cittas are disturbed and come to a halt and vithi cittas arise and in this way vithi cittas series and bhavanga cittas serial flow arise as long as we are here in this life as satta or being as in conventional sense. These are functions of citta and citta can still be classified according to their function. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 33433 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Fri May 28, 2004 11:32am Subject: Re: Concentration/Victor: was: I have a wonderful wife Hi Ken H, Reply in context. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "yu_zhonghao" > wrote: > > Hi Ken H and all, > > > > Panna/wisdom also depends on concentration: > > > > SN 56.1 Concentration [1] > > > > At Savatthi. "Bhikkhus, develop concentration. A bhikkhu who is > > concentrated understands things as they really are. > > "And what does he understands as it really is? > > > Hi Victor, > > Thanks for your help. However, I do believe you have jumped to the > wrong conclusion. What is meant here by, "A bhikkhu who is > concentrated understands things as they really are?" I think this > refers to a moment (or moments) of vipassana. No problem. What is this that refers to a moment (or moments) of vipassana? What do you mean by a moment of vipassana? What the Buddha said in the discourse is clearer to me than what you are trying to say. > > At a moment of vipassana, there is right concentration. I am not quite sure what you mean here. [snip] > > Kind regards, > Ken H Metta, Victor 33435 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri May 28, 2004 11:49am Subject: Re: [dsg] Tiika Vis. 79, sound and intimation Hi Larry, op 28-05-2004 01:30 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > Ven Narada: are caused by utu (temperature). Musical notes caused by men are > produced by utu, conditioned by mind.>> L: What if I intentionally make a non-intimating sound with my mouth? Is > that consciousness produced or temperature produced? N: Citta conditions it. But not every sound is raiising with the sound decad containing the rupa that is verbal intimation. There is no proper speech sound, no vocal chords involved. Moreover, not every speech sound is verbal intimation. Muttering in one's sleep or in a swoon, no intention to convey a meaning. Then there is just speech sound without the rupa that is verbal intimation. L:Or is it that > intention _is_ intimation when it comes to consciously producing sound > (therefore there is no intentionally produced non-intimating sound)? N: speech sound produced by citta, by means of the movement of the vocal chords with the intention to convey a meaning, that is verbal intimation. L: Also, I disagree with Ven Narada. It seems to me music is intimation > (even the tap, tap, tap of tap dancing). N: Music: when it is blowing on the flute no vocal chords involved, it is not proper speech sound. I want to convey something with my music, and that means, citta conditions the sounds of music, that is all. No vi~n~natti rupa. By dancing: one may want to convey a message, then it is bodily intimation. Cymbals, or drum, the same. L: Just a thought on intimation: it seems to me any expression of one's state of mind is an intimation, whether it be stamping one's foot in anger, a fashion statement, or any kind of art. What do you think? N:In anger stamping the feet: yes, bodily intimation, by gestures. Facial expression, frowning, etc: idem. Theater, dancing: it depends whether it is for a public and one wants to convey something. Bodily intimation. But when there is no intention to convey a meaning to someone else no vi~n~natti rupa. Nina. 33436 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri May 28, 2004 11:49am Subject: Re: [dsg] kammathana, meditation subject Dear Sarah op 28-05-2004 10:16 schreef Sarah op sarahdhhk@y...: >> Buddhaghosa often mentions the three characteristics as kammathana of >> vipassana. Remember the two meanings of jhana: absorption in the >> meditation >> subjects of samatha and: in vipassana, penetrating the three >> characteristics >> of realities.. > .... > When we were last in Bkk, K.Sujin was talking briefly about these two > meanings of jhana and particularly the second as you say 'in vipassana, > penetrating the three characteristics of realities'. Afterwards I was > trying to find a reference but wasn't sure where to look. Could you give > me one or a past post with one. Is it referring to samma samadhi when > arising with lokuttara cittas or at each moment of vipassana? N: Just in vipassana, in the texts about the two meanings of jhana: jhana that has the subjects of samatha, and jhana of the three characteristics. Here is a text: We read in the ³Discourse on Expunging²(M. I, no 8, Sallekhasutta) that the Buddha said to Cunda: ³These, Cunda, are the roots of trees, these are empty places. Meditate, Cunda; do not be slothful; be not remorseful later. This is our instruction to you.² In Pali the word ³jhåyathå² is used, that can be translated as contemplate. The Commentary to this sutta, the ³Papañcasúdaní², explains that there are two meanings of jhåna: contemplation on the thirtyeight objects of samatha (aramma.núpanijjhåna), and contemplation on the characteristics (lakkhaùúpanijjhåna), beginning with impermanence, with reference to the khandhas, the sense-fields (åyatanas) and so on. The Commentary states: ³It is said, develop samatha and vipassanå. Do not be slothful; be not remorseful later.² And here is the Pali about the objects of meditation: Papa~ncasuudanii, Atthk to the Sallekhasutta (M.N. I,8): Jhaayathaa ti. aaramma.nuupanijjhaanena a.t.thati.msaaramma.naahi (thirtyeight objects of samatha), lakkha.nuupanijjhaanena ca aniccaadito (beginning with aniccaa) khandhaayatanaadiini upanijjhaayatha. Samatha~n ca vipassana~ca va.d.dhetaa(develop) ti vutta.m hoti. Maa pamaadatthaati maapamajjittha(do not be neglectful). Nina 33437 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri May 28, 2004 11:49am Subject: Re: [dsg] 'Birth is suffering, old age is suffering, death is suffering....' Hi Larry, First an example: I am just studying Vis. 80 and here I learn about arising of old age and death and it is explained that this can be said in the D.O. , that it is the sutta explanation in this context. It is said: . Pariyaaya is: instruction, method, mode of teaching, figurative language. I learn from the Tiika that there are different methods. It is very useful to learn about such principles. But, strictly speaking, the rupa characteristics of decay and impermanence do not arise. This is only an example to show that in certain contexts there can be one explanation, but that this is not always valid. There are no contradictions here, just different methods of explanation. It will be clearer when we come to Tiika Vis. 80. The same subject is also dealt with in the Expositor and the Co to the Abhidhammattha Sangaha. Now, for dukkha as the noble truth of dukkha it has a cause: craving. But as a characteristic inherent in all conditioned realities it is a different matter, just like impermanence and anatta. Impermanence and dukkha are closely connected here; what is impermanent is also no refuge, unsatisfactory. We cannot speak of arising of these three charactreistics or being caused, they are just characteristics inherent in realities. Nina. op 28-05-2004 01:11 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > Hi Sarah, > > Dukkha has a cause. Does impermanence and anatta have a cause? > > Larry 33438 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri May 28, 2004 11:49am Subject: Perseverance in Dhamma, Ch 2, no 6 Perseverance in Dhamma, Ch 2, no 6 When we are hearing we may think of the sound of traffic, but we do not think all the time, ³this is the sound of traffic². There are also moments of just hearing, hearing of what impinges on the earsense, of sound. Earsense is rúpa, it is ready for impact of sound, just sound, nothing else, so that hearing can arise. Sound is rúpa, hearing is nåma, they have different characteristics. Earsense is the physical base for hearing and it is also the doorway for the experience of sound. Hearing arises at the earbase. Many processes of citta occur extremely fast. When we are in conversation with others we communicate by means of the words we speak. When we hear sounds and then recognize different syllables that form up words, many ear-door processes arise and in between many mind-door processes of cittas that remember meanings. Saññå does its task of marking and remembering the object, so that we can remember a whole sentence, sequences of them and understand the meaning of what is spoken. When someone speaks to us, there are moments of just hearing and moments of understanding of what has been said. When we translate words from Thai into English, it seems that we can do this immediately, without thinking, but in reality there are many different cittas arising in sense-door processes and mind-door processes. If there is no hearing of just sound, how could we translate anything? It is the same in the case of reading, we actually translate what is seen into meaning. However, there is also seeing of what appears through the eyesense. Seeing is different from paying attention to the shape and form of the letters. We need perseverance to listen to the Dhamma and carefully consider it, so that we can understand the difference between concepts of people and things, and the conditioned dhammas of our life which are citta, cetasika and rúpa. When there is more understanding of dhammas as objects of satipatthåna, the difference between concepts and dhammas will be clearer. We can learn the difference between nåma, which includes citta and cetasika, and rúpa. Nåma is the dhamma that experiences an object and rúpa is the dhamma that does not know anything. ****** Nina. 33439 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Fri May 28, 2004 0:25pm Subject: [dsg] Re: 'Meaning fully drawn out' vs. 'meaning to be inferred' Hi Sarah, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > Hi Victor, > > --- yu_zhonghao wrote: > > > Let me put it this way: > > > > Suppose I asked someone: "Have you had dinner tonight?" And he > > replied: "I usually have steak for dinner, with mashed potatos and > > green beans" and went on describing the details of what he usually > > has for dinner. Since his reply has nothing to do with what I > > asked, then I asked again "So have you had dinner tonight?" And he > > went on with what he likes for dinner, the best dinner he's ever had. > > > > While I understood his reply, it had nothing to do with the > > question "Have you had dinner tonight?" and the answer to this > > question is simply either an affirmative "Yes, I have had dinner > > tonight" or a negative "No, I haven't had dinner tonight" or if he > > did not k~ow, he could reply "I am not sure"/"I don't know." > .... > And let me put my comments this way: > > Did the Buddha ever recommend or suggest that all Yes/No questions should > at all times be answered with a `Yes', `No' or `Don't know' reply? As I understand it: No, the Buddha did not recommend or suggest that all Yes/No questions should at all times be answered with a `Yes', `No' or `Don't know' reply. On the other hand, nor did the Buddha recommend or suggest that categorical questions should be evaded. Categorical questions[1] are questions like Is birth dukkha or not? Is old age dukkha or not? Is death dukkha or not? Is form dukkha or not? Is feeling dukkha or not? Is perception dukkha or not? Are fabrication dukkha or not? Is consciousness dukkha or not? [snip] > S:> > A direct question for you, Victor: What does the abandoning or > > developing > > > in terms of the khandhas? > .... > V:> I am not sure what your question mean. As I see it, the question is > > not formulated properly in grammar. > .... > S: I agree it wasn't very clear. Let me give some options. Do you see the > Abandoning and Developing in the good sutta extract you quoted as being > performed by: > > a) Self > b) Panna, accompanied by other eightfold path factors > c) Meditation as defined by sitting cross-legged in a quiet > room,focussing on breath (coffee optional for Phil) > d) a fuzzy combination of a), b) and c) Let me put forth this question, but you don't have to answer it. If someone says to you: "Abandon what is unskillful, Sarah. It is possible to abandon what is unskillful. If it were not possible to abandon what is unskillful, I would not say to you, 'Abandon what is unskillful.' But because it is possible to abandon what is unskillful, I say to you, 'Abandon what is unskillful.' If this abandoning of what is unskillful were conducive to harm and pain, I would not say to you, 'Abandon what is unskillful.' But because this abandoning of what is unskillful is conducive to benefit and pleasure, I say to you, 'Abandon what is unskillful.' "Develop what is skillful, Sarah. It is possible to develop what is skillful. If it were not possible to develop what is skillful, I would not say to you, 'Develop what is skillful.' But because it is possible to develop what is skillful, I say to you, 'Develop what is skillful.' If this development of what is skillful were conducive to harm and pain, I would not say to you, 'Develop what is skillful.' But because this development of what is skillful is conducive to benefit and pleasure, I say to you, 'Develop what is skillful.'" would you make an effort to abandon what is unskillful and develop what is skillful or would you ask others the question "Do you see the Abandoning and Developing as being performed by self, or panna, accompanied by other eightfold path factors, or meditation as defined by sitting cross-legged in a quiet room,focusing on breath?" ? Metta, Victor > > Metta, > > Sarah [1] Anguttara Nikaya IV.42 Pañha Sutta Questions Translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu. For free distribution only. --------------------------------------------------------------------- ----------- "There are these four ways of answering questions. Which four? There are questions that should be answered categorically [straightforwardly yes, no, this, that]. There are questions that should be answered with an analytical (qualified) answer [defining or redefining the terms]. There are questions that should be answered with a counter-question. There are questions that should be put aside. These are the four ways of answering questions." First the categorical answer, then the qualified, third, the type to be counter-questioned, & fourth, the one to be set aside. Any monk who knows which is which, in line with the Dhamma, is said to be skilled in the four types of questions: hard to overcome, hard to beat, profound, hard to defeat. He knows what's worthwhile & what's not, proficient in (recognizing) both, he rejects the worthless, grasps the worthwhile. He's called one who has broken through to what's worthwhile, prudent, wise. --------------------------------------------------------------------- ----------- See also: MN 58; MN 72; SN XLIV.10; AN III.78; AN X.96. --------------------------------------------------------------------- ----------- Revised: Sun 19-Oct-2003 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an04-042.html [2] Anguttara Nikaya II.19 Kusala Sutta Skillful Translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu. For free distribution only. --------------------------------------------------------------------- ----------- "Abandon what is unskillful, monks. It is possible to abandon what is unskillful. If it were not possible to abandon what is unskillful, I would not say to you, 'Abandon what is unskillful.' But because it is possible to abandon what is unskillful, I say to you, 'Abandon what is unskillful.' If this abandoning of what is unskillful were conducive to harm and pain, I would not say to you, 'Abandon what is unskillful.' But because this abandoning of what is unskillful is conducive to benefit and pleasure, I say to you, 'Abandon what is unskillful.' "Develop what is skillful, monks. It is possible to develop what is skillful. If it were not possible to develop what is skillful, I would not say to you, 'Develop what is skillful.' But because it is possible to develop what is skillful, I say to you, 'Develop what is skillful.' If this development of what is skillful were conducive to harm and pain, I would not say to you, 'Develop what is skillful.' But because this development of what is skillful is conducive to benefit and pleasure, I say to you, 'Develop what is skillful.'" --------------------------------------------------------------------- ----------- See also: DN 12; SN VI.1. --------------------------------------------------------------------- ----------- Revised: Sun 19-Oct-2003 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an02-019.html 33440 From: htootintnaing Date: Fri May 28, 2004 0:32pm Subject: Re: Perseverance in Dhamma, Ch 2, no 6 Nåma is the dhamma that experiences an object and rúpa is the dhamma that does not know anything. ****** Nina. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Nina, You said that 'Nama' is the dhamma that experiences an object and 'rupa' is the dhamma that does not know anything. May I ask you a few questions. Is 'Nibbana' nama dhamma? If so, can nibbana experiences an object? With much respect, Htoo Naing 33441 From: htootintnaing Date: Fri May 28, 2004 0:55pm Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 021 ) Dear Dhamma Friends, Citta can be classified in may ways. Citta can do different jobs. Some cittas do the job of patisandhi or linking. Some do bhavanga or maintaining life. Some do avajjana or contemplating on the object. So do vinnana ( cakkhu..s..g..j..kayavinnana ) or sense-consciousness. Some do sampaticchana or receiving. Some do santirana or investigation. Only one does votthapana or determining. This single citta is manodvara avajjana citta. It does the function of votthapana or determining on the object. Some cittas do the job of javana or mental impulse which is a swift series of 7 in most vithi varas or serial terms. And some do tadarammana or retention of the sense of the object. And some do the job of cuti or ending of a life. According to their functions cittas are grouped into functional ones. 1. 19 patisandhi cittas ( same as cuti cittas ) 2. 19 bhavanga cittas ( same as cuti cittas ) 3. 2 avajjana cittas ( 1 is included in votthapana ) 4. 10 pancavinnana cittas 5. 2 sampaticchana cittas 6. 3 santirana cittas ( 2 is included in cuti cittas ) 7. 1 votthapana citta 8. 55 javana cittas 9. 11 tadarammana cittas ( 3 in santirana and 8 in cuti cittas ) 10.19 cuti cittas So in total there will be 1. 0 2. 0 3. 1 4. 10 5. 2 6. 1 7. 1 8. 55 9. 0 10.19 0+0+1+10+2+1+1+55+0+19 = 89 cittas in total. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 33442 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Fri May 28, 2004 1:13pm Subject: Re: Concentration/Victor: was: I have a wonderful wife Hi Christine and all, Thank you for the notes. I checked both the notes and the discourse SN 22.5. This is how I understand it: Insight/understanding things as they really are/vipassana is a result of concentration as the Buddha said: "Bhikkhus, develop concentration. A bhikkhu who is concentrated understands things as they really are." Insight/vipassana, like right view/sammaditthi, is discernment/panna. But insight/vipassana is not equivalent to right view/sammaditthi. natthi jhaana.m apa~n~nassa There is no jhana for one with no discernment pa~n~naa natthi ajjhaayato no discernment for one with no jhana http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/khuddaka/dhp/25.html There is no right concentration for one without right view. There is no insight for one with no right concentration. I may be wrong and comments are welcome. Metta, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Hello KenH, Victor,and all, > > KenH to Victor: "Thanks for your help. However, I do believe you > have jumped to the > wrong conclusion. What is meant here by, "A bhikkhu who is > concentrated understands things as they really are?" I think this > refers to a moment (or moments) of vipassana." > ---------- > > Bhikkhu Bodhi's notes to the first lines of SN 56.1, the sutta > Victor quoted: > 'At. Saavatthi. "Bhikkhus, develop concentration. A bhikkhu who > is concentrated understands things as they really are. [note 375] > > note 375: As at 22:5; > ---------- > And SN 22.5 (5) Concentration reads: > > Thus have I heard. At Saavatthi .... There the Blessed One said > this: "Bhikkhus, develop concentration. A bhikkhu who is > concentrated understands thins as they really are. > "And what does he understand as it really is? The origin and > passing away of form; the origin and passing away of feeling; the > origin and passing away of perception; the origin and passing away > of volitional formations; the origin and passing away of > consciousness. (rest snipped for brevity). > > metta and peace, > Christine > ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" > wrote: > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "yu_zhonghao" > > wrote: > > > Hi Ken H and all, > > > > > > Panna/wisdom also depends on concentration: > > > > > > SN 56.1 Concentration [1] > > > > > > At Savatthi. "Bhikkhus, develop concentration. A bhikkhu who is > > > concentrated understands things as they really are. > > > "And what does he understands as it really is? > > 33443 From: Date: Fri May 28, 2004 4:29pm Subject: Re: [dsg] 'Birth is suffering, old age is suffering, death is suffering....' Nina: "We cannot speak of arising of these three charactreistics or being caused, they are just characteristics inherent in realities." Hi Nina, Htoo said the same thing and I'm beginning to think so as well but it's a bit of puzzle how this all fits together. Dukkha is a deep subject, not easily understood. I would like to look at it in the context of citta process. Larry 33444 From: Date: Fri May 28, 2004 4:39pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Tiika Vis. 79, sound and intimation Nina: "But when there is no intention to convey a meaning to someone else no vi~n~natti rupa." Hi Nina, This clarifies and also suggests that concept is a necessary element (pannatti as meaning). Larry 33445 From: Date: Fri May 28, 2004 5:07pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: feeling? Hi Rob, Basically what I am looking for is more detail in citta process. For example, feeling is obviously a big part of on-going ordinary experience and it is said that feeing arises with every consciousness, but what does that mean? What kind of process is happening that feeling is experienced all the time? Is each consciousness in citta process itself a sub-process? I see determining consciousness as predominantly employing sanna. Does sanna also pick-up on feeling or remember a feeling? Is investigating consciousness analytical in some sense? Does it evoke a feeling? This is the general area of my interest. What is happening with feeling in citta process? Larry 33446 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Fri May 28, 2004 6:24pm Subject: Re: [dsg] 'Birth is suffering, old age is suffering, death is suffering....' Hi Nina, Larry, and all, I think what I would say is basically along the same line as what Nina said: The five aggregates are inconstant, dukkha, not self as they are. They are just the way they are: inconstant, dukkha, not self. And that which is dukkha encompass the five aggregates and the five aggregates encompass that which is dukkha. On the other hand, craving that makes for further becoming is the origination of the dukkha, namely, that which is dukkha. Given the dependent origination: From craving as a requisite condition comes clinging/sustenance. From clinging/sustenance as a requisite condition comes becoming. From becoming as a requisite condition comes birth. From birth as a requisite condition, then aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair come into play. Such is the origination of this entire mass of the dukkha. The relation between what is inconstant, what is dukkha, what is not self can be seen as following: Form (feeling, perception, fabrications, consciousness) is inconstant. What is inconstant is dukkha. What is dukkha is not self. metta, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > Hi Larry, [snip] > Now, for dukkha as the noble truth of dukkha it has a cause: craving. But as > a characteristic inherent in all conditioned realities it is a different > matter, just like impermanence and anatta. Impermanence and dukkha are > closely connected here; what is impermanent is also no refuge, > unsatisfactory. We cannot speak of arising of these three charactreistics or > being caused, they are just characteristics inherent in realities. > > Nina. > op 28-05-2004 01:11 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > > > Hi Sarah, > > > > Dukkha has a cause. Does impermanence and anatta have a cause? > > > > Larry 33447 From: Date: Fri May 28, 2004 6:57pm Subject: Re: [dsg] 'Birth is suffering, old age is suffering, death is suffering....' Hi Victor, It occurred to me today that impermanence could also be seen as amusing, even laughable, not a source of suffering at all. This doesn't add anything to our understanding but it is curious. Also, do you know why upadana is translated as "clinging/sustenance"? Is there some reference to nutriment here? I wonder if upadana is the sense of self or appropriation as me and mine? Larry 33448 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Fri May 28, 2004 7:38pm Subject: Re: [dsg] 'Birth is suffering, old age is suffering, death is suffering....' Hi Larry, May I ask that: Reply in context. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@w... wrote: > Hi Victor, > > It occurred to me today that impermanence could also be seen as amusing, > even laughable, not a source of suffering at all. This doesn't add > anything to our understanding but it is curious. What is it that is impermanent you see as amusing or laughable? Is something that is impermanent that you see as amusing or laughable? > > Also, do you know why upadana is translated as "clinging/sustenance"? Yes. Let me provide four references at the end of the message. You might also be interested to check their context. Is > there some reference to nutriment here? Do you mean nutriment as in Majjhima Nikaya 9 Sammaditthi Sutta The Discourse on Right View http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/majjhima/mn009.html ? > > I wonder if upadana is the sense of self or appropriation as me and > mine? I adopted the following translation from Samyutta Nikaya XII.2 Paticca-samuppada-vibhanga Sutta Analysis of Dependent Co-arising http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn12-002.html "And what is clinging/sustenance? These four are clingings/sustenances: clinging/sustenance of sensuality, clinging/sustenance of view, clinging/sustenance of precept & practice, and clinging/sustenance of doctrine of self. This is called clinging/sustenance." > > Larry Hope it helps. Metta, Victor [1] The five aggregates, on their own, do not constitute suffering or stress. They are stressful only when functioning as objects of clinging/sustenance. This hybrid word -- clinging/sustenance -- is a translation of the Pali term upadana. Upadana has a hybrid meaning because it is used to cover two sides of a physical process metaphorically applied to the mind: the act of clinging whereby a fire takes sustenance from a piece of fuel, together with the sustenance offered by the fuel. On the level of the mind, upadana denotes both the act of clinging and the object clung to, which together give sustenance to the process whereby mental pain arises. In terms of this metaphor, pain is hot and unstable like fire, whereas the mental act of clinging to the five aggregates is what keeps the fire burning. These images are part of a larger complex of imagery contained in the Pali discourses, likening the processes of pain and its cessation to the physical processes of fire and its extinguishing. An understanding of this imagery helps to give a graphic, intuitive sense for the ways in which the Pali texts analyze the problem of stress and pain. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/modern/thanissaro/wings/3h2.html [2] Once a fire has been provoked, it needs 'upadana' -- commonly translated as fuel -- to continue burning. Upadana has other meanings besides fuel, though -- one is the nourishment that sustains the life & growth of a tree -- and as we will see below, wind can also function as a fire's upadana. Thus, 'sustenance' would seem to be a more precise translation for the term. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/modern/thanissaro/likefire/2- 2.html [3] Another meaning for upadana is clinging, which suggests that, just as a tree clings to the soil that provides its sustenance, fire clings to its fuel. Thus the above passage could also read, 'fire burns with clinging and not without clinging' -- a characteristic of fire that was observed in other ancient Asian traditions, such as the Chinese I Ching, as well. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/modern/thanissaro/likefire/2- 2.html [4] To understand the implications of nibbana in the present life, it is necessary to know something of the way in which fire is described in the Pali Canon. There, fire is said to be caused by the excitation or agitation of the heat property. To continue burning, it must have sustenance (upadana). Its relationship to its sustenance is one of clinging, dependence, & entrapment. When it goes out, the heat property is no longer agitated, and the fire is said to be freed. Thus the metaphor of nibbana in this case would have implications of calming together with release from dependencies, attachments, & bondage. This in turn suggests that of all the attempts to describe the etymology of the word nibbana, the closest is one Buddhaghosa proposed in The Path of Purification: Un- (nir) + binding (vana): Unbinding. To understand further what is meant by the unbinding of the mind, it is also important to know that the word upadana -- the sustenance for the fire -- also means clinging, and that according to the Buddha the mind has four forms of clinging that keep it in bondage: clinging to sensuality, to views, to precepts & practices, and to doctrines of the self. In each case, the clinging is the passion & desire the mind feels for these things. To overcome this clinging, then, the mind must see not only the drawbacks of these four objects of clinging, but, more importantly, the drawbacks of the act of passion & desire itself. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/modern/thanissaro/likefire/1.html 33449 From: buddhatrue Date: Fri May 28, 2004 9:35pm Subject: Conditioned? Concentration? ( was Re: I have a wonderful wife Friend Phil, Phil: Nice talking with you James. Here's hoping that this topic/thread doesn't develop in a way that causes peacable James to retreat in the face of an uprising by (unintentially) obnoxious James! You know I say that with affection... :) James: Hehehe…don't worry about that. I am now Quiet James; I have nothing else to say ;-)). Metta, James 33450 From: buddhatrue Date: Fri May 28, 2004 9:37pm Subject: [dsg] Conditioned? Concentration? ( was Re: I have a wonderful wife Friend Howard, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, James (and Phil) - > ============================== > I both agree with you and disagree with you on this one, James. I > agree with you about right concentration as being mainly defined as attaining the > jhanas, especially the 1st four, and I agree that the ordinary level of > concentration typically accompanying each mindstate (i.e., the degree of inclination > for "the same" object of consciousness to be repeated in the next and > subsequent states) is not a liberating level of concentration. But where we seem to > disagree is on the issue of where the concentration occurs. As I see it, every > mental function that operates does so within a single mindstate, though it may > continue in subsequent ones. > I understand a mindstate to end and a new one to begin whenever there > is any change in the make-up of experience consisting in some factor ceasing, > or another commencing, or both. I don't mean to imply by this that a mindstate > must be instantaneous - in fact, I think it is probably better represented by > a cosine wave, growing, peaking, and subsiding, than by a discrete spike, or, > better yet, by a family of such waves, one for each of the constituents of > that mindstate. But all operations that occur at all are based within individual > mindstates. With regard to concentration, in particular, the concentration > that consists of sticking pretty much with the same content (arammana) for a > lengthy period, with little swapping out to other objects is concentration in the > conventional sense. I take that sort of "concentration" to be a > mind-construct/pa~n~natti (Is the singular 'pa~n~natto'?), and as being our way of grasping > a kind of relation among mindstates, and it has as its basis the paramattha > dhamma of one-pointedness which I interpret to mean the tendency (a sankhara) > for the content of a mindstate to repeat. In other words, James, I have been > infected to some extent by the Abhidhammic virus! ;-)) > > With metta, > Howard I'm afraid I must lack sufficient brain power to understand what you are saying here. ;-)) Maybe if you re-explained in more simple terms I could understand better and respond. Metta, James 33451 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri May 28, 2004 11:44pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: processes of cittas Dear Rob M, I would like to draw your attention to a few texts about the processes. The nucleus of these we find already early: Book of Analysis, Vibhanga, I am just studying it. As we discussed before: the cittas are classified as elements, and one may not recognize them as such. I am doing a study of bhavanga for a Norwegian Dhamma friend I was also going to post here when I am finished. Thus this is only about bhavangacitta for now: . Thus the adverting-consciousness is the first citta of a process, it adverts to the object that impinges on the relevant doorway. It is conditioned by bhavanga-citta by way of contiguity-condition. The Book of Analysis (the Second Book of the Abhidhamma),Ch 3, Analysis of the Elements (90, p. 116) speaks about different cittas succeeding one another. When cittas are classified as elements, the sense-cognitions are denoted as: eye-consciousness-element, etc. The vipakacitta that succeeds this, the receiving-consciousness or sampaticchana-citta, is mind-element (two types: one is kusala vipaka, one is akusala vipaka), and also the adverting-consciousness, the first citta of a process is denoted as mind-element. All other cittas, arising in processes or process freed are mind-consciousnes element. We read: Therein what is mind-consciousnes element? Immediately after the cessation of the eye-consciousness-element that has arisen there arises mind-element; immediately after the cessation of the mind-element that has arisen there arises consciousness, mind, ideation (dhamma), and depending on the aforesaid, mind-consciousnes element.> And as discussed before, in the Path of Discrimination a very clear exposion of processes, in See in the archives. In the Commentaries by Buddhaghosa the process cittas are redundant. Buddhaghosa, as you know, uses the old Great Commentary that was rehearsed at the great councils. I look at random in the Visuddhimagga: XVII, 127 etc. Here we find all the names of the cittas such as receiving, registering, etc. Thus this is not dated at the 10th century. I hope this helps, Nina. op 28-05-2004 14:21 schreef robmoult op rob.moult@j...: > Please keep in mind that dependent arising dates back to the Suttas > whereas dhamma theory (paramattha dhammas) and the citta process were > not articulated until 1500 years later (10th century). The basic > roots of dhamma theory and the citta process come from the Suttas, > but articulating them in the manner you are speaking did not happen > until Acariya Anuruddha wrote the Abhidhammatthasangaha. 33452 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri May 28, 2004 11:44pm Subject: Re: concentration and Panna Hi Howard, exactly, your spiral simile. But then we should look again at your former post: "A bhikkhu who is concentrated understands things as they really are" It can be applied to that. The word concentration can stand for calm. We have to take the utmost care of word meanings in different contexts. Sometimes the word citta is used for calm, or firmness of citta. I quoted before Co texts: he taught Vinaya for abandoning transgression (coarse defilements), sutta for eliminating medium defilements by calm (here also samadhi is used, and it is translated as concentration, but the meaning is calm), and Abhidhamma for eradicating subtle defilements (latent tendencies) by wisdom. As to calm with sutta: when reflecting on a sutta there is calm, freedom from akusala. Is this not true? There are times for contemplating on the Dhamma, and it depends on circumstances and inclinations when and where one can do this. This helps to understand the Dhamma. But panna is necessary for this. Others may have skill and inclination to develop higher degrees of calm. This is not so much a matter of concentration, but calm, conditioned by panna. Panna has to know whether there is kusala citta or akusala citta (see example of brahmaviharas in previous post). Panna has to be emphasized again. Samadhi arising with each citta has as function to focus on the object of citta so that citta experiences only one object. but it falls away with the citta. I think that the word concentration may mislead people. with regard to vipassana: to me it seems very strange that you have to concentrate first and then wisdom will arise. As I see it, they are together, and concentration grows as wisdom grows, and at the moment of lokuttara citta, samadhi has the strength of jhana, by conditions. In other suttas we read: right understanding comes first, in other words, takes the lead. When considering the practice: what has to be known now? Whatever nama or rupa appears through one of the six doors. Panna has to become keener. It has to know their different characteristics and later on the three general characteristics. I cannot possibly see how there would have to be concentration first on what appears and after that panna. But the object has gone, concentration has gone and there is a new reality appearing. There is no time to figure out any order, a dhamma appears already. No time to even think of concentration. Certainly, it is there, in the company of understanding, if there are conditions for panna. Suppose I would say: come, let me concentrate on seeing, but then the seeing has gone when I think about it, and I am only thinking and thinking. Never knowing what seeing is, never realizing seeing as a nama that just appears for a moment because of its own conditions. When panna is not developed there will be just ignorance of realities. Does this make any sense to you? Nina. op 28-05-2004 16:31 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: > This, of course, is quite similar to the content of VI, 50. What is > interesting to me is the material of the very next sutta, the second sutta of > the book of tens. It puts forward the very same chain of conditionality as > above, but, at the end *circling back* to virtuous ways of conduct once > again. And then the sutta closes with the following: "Thus, monks, the > preceding qualities flow into the succeeding qualities; the succeeding > qualities bring the preceding qualities to perfection, for going from the > near shore to the far shore." > This is exactly the spiral conditionality that I was suggesting, and > is, of course, in harmony with both of our understandings that all the > factors affect each other. 33453 From: robmoult Date: Sat May 29, 2004 0:31am Subject: [dsg] Re: processes of cittas Hi Nina, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > Dear Rob M, > I would like to draw your attention to a few texts about the processes. The > nucleus of these we find already early: Book of Analysis, Vibhanga, I am > just studying it. As we discussed before: the cittas are classified as > elements, and one may not recognize them as such. I am doing a study of > bhavanga for a Norwegian Dhamma friend I was also going to post here when I > am finished. Thus this is only about bhavangacitta for now: > > Ven. Nyanatiloka mentions that two or three times bhavanga occurs in the > Patthana, the sixth Book of the Abhidhamma, thus, it is not so that it only > occurs in the Commentaries. > Conditional Relations (sixth Book of the Abhidhamma), p. 149: under > contiguity-condiiton (the condition where each citta is succeeded by the > next one):< Life-continuum to advertence>. Thus the adverting- consciousness > is the first citta of a process, it adverts to the object that impinges on > the relevant doorway. It is conditioned by bhavanga-citta by way of > contiguity-condition. > The Book of Analysis (the Second Book of the Abhidhamma),Ch 3, Analysis of > the Elements (90, p. 116) speaks about different cittas succeeding one > another. When cittas are classified as elements, the sense- cognitions are > denoted as: eye-consciousness-element, etc. The vipakacitta that succeeds > this, the receiving-consciousness or sampaticchana-citta, is mind- element > (two types: one is kusala vipaka, one is akusala vipaka), and also the > adverting-consciousness, the first citta of a process is denoted as > mind-element. All other cittas, arising in processes or process freed are > mind-consciousnes element. We read: > Therein what is mind-consciousnes element? Immediately after the cessation > of the eye-consciousness-element that has arisen there arises mind- element; > immediately after the cessation of the mind-element that has arisen there > arises consciousness, mind, ideation (dhamma), and depending on the > aforesaid, mind-consciousnes element.> > And as discussed before, in the Path of Discrimination a very clear exposion > of processes, in See in the archives. > In the Commentaries by Buddhaghosa the process cittas are redundant. > Buddhaghosa, as you know, uses the old Great Commentary that was rehearsed > at the great councils. I look at random in the Visuddhimagga: XVII, 127 etc. > Here we find all the names of the cittas such as receiving, registering, > etc. Thus this is not dated at the 10th century. > I hope this helps, > Nina. > > > op 28-05-2004 14:21 schreef robmoult op rob.moult@j...: > > > Please keep in mind that dependent arising dates back to the Suttas > > whereas dhamma theory (paramattha dhammas) and the citta process were > > not articulated until 1500 years later (10th century). The basic > > roots of dhamma theory and the citta process come from the Suttas, > > but articulating them in the manner you are speaking did not happen > > until Acariya Anuruddha wrote the Abhidhammatthasangaha. ===== As you have probably guessed, my principal source for my statement was the Appendix of Nyanatiloka's Buddhist Dictionary; specifically: citta-víthi, as well as all terms for the various functions within the processes of consciousness, such as ávajjana-citta, sampaticchana, santírana, votthapana, javana, tadárammana, bhavanga, cuti: none of these terms is found in the Sutta Canon. except javana, in Pts.M. Even in the Ahh. Canon (e.g. Patth) only javana and bhavanga are twice or thrice briefly mentioned. The stages, however, must have been more or less known. Cf. e.g Patth: ''Cakkhu-viññánam tam sampayuttaká ca dhammá (= cetasiká) mano-dhátuyá (performing the sampaticchana-function), tam sampayuttakánañ ca dhammánam (cetasikánani) anantara-paccayena paccayo. Mano-dhátu ... manoviññána- dhátuya (performing the santírana and votthapana function).... Purimá purimá kusalá dhammá (javaná) pacchimánam pacchimánam kusalánam dhammánam (javanacittánam) anantara-paccayena paccayo... avyákatánam dhammánam (tadárammana- and bhavanga-cittánam....)." cuti-citta: s. citta-víthi. In my recent post on Paticcasamuppada by way of Patthana, I mentioned the use of the terms "receiving", "investigating" and "registration" in Vism XVII 231. I am not saying that Acariya Anuruddha invented these concepts; I guess what I am saying is that it was Acariya Anuruddha who plucked these concepts from relative obscurity and gave the "staring roles on centre stage" in the Abhidhammatthasangaha. Metta, Rob M :-) 33454 From: kenhowardau Date: Sat May 29, 2004 0:38am Subject: Conditioned? Concentration? ( was Re: I have a wonderful wife Hi Philip (and Sukin), ---------------- Ph: > This is interesting. I'd never though of meditation being a citta, a mind-moment. I don't think I've come across such an idea in Nina's books, though it is probably expressed in other words. > --------------- I certainly hope I haven't said anything original. :-) My aim is simply to repeat what I am learning from Nina and others but in my own words. Everything that is real, in the ultimate sense, exists in one mind moment. Right mindfulness is a cetasika, sama-sati, but the moment in which it exists is a moment of Path consciousness, Magga-citta. Magga-citta could be called the ultimate meditation -- meditation on Nibbana. Mundane Path consciousness (mundane-magga-citta?) is a lesser form of meditation -- meditation on a conditioned reality. And then, of course, there is jhana meditation. And there are other meditations that are accompanied by tranquility (passaddhi), but not necessarily by panna. These are, meditations on the Buddha, on metta, on death and on loathsomeness. In reality, they are only [kusala] cittas: none of them is a formal procedure that can be ritualistically carried out. --------------- <. . . .> Ph: > I wonder what I mean by conditioned?. I tend to throw around terms that I've read about but not yet properly understood. I think of conditionned in this case as, for example in my case, sitting on a cushion with a coffee (cheating!) as soon as I have gotten up and taken a pee and done a few calesthenics. It's my morning routine. I do it without thinking because I have done it so often before. No hopes of ganing anything in particular from my meditation, but open to any insights that arise. Do I want to gain something? Well, I want to understand akusala better, to make progress- I admit- in beginning to eradicate defilements. > --------------- That's a good point you make: If meditation is something we do naturally, as part of our daily routine, does that preclude it from being a "superstitious rite or ritual?" Is wrong view necessarily involved? Many otherwise-hard-headed dsg people say it is OK; there is not necessarily wrong view. But other forthright folk, Sukin for one, say it is a sign of wrong view. (Hope I haven't got you wrong there, Sukin.) I go along with Sukin. If meditation is something more than mental relaxation, then it must entail the view of a controlling self. Sorry Phil, we have spoken. :-) ----------------- Ph: I can't speak for more advanced practicioners, but I think meditation is very helpful for beginners. ----------------- Most helpful for beginners would be to directly understand what a beginner really is. We beginners see, hear, think etc., with attachment (sometimes with anger or just plain ignorance) almost every moment of the waking day. If we have trained our minds to wait for a moment of non-attachment before being mindful of the realities that have arisen, then we will be waiting for a long time. ------------- PH: > We are provided with a workshop on the cushion, an opportunity to sit quietly and watch the way thoughts come and go. For people who have lived for years at the mercy of their thoughts, sitting and observing them is very liberating. And leads to more observation in the day that follows. > ------------- Agreed. But football and chess are also good for us - - that doesn't make them part of the Middle Way. ------------- <. . . .> PH: > The awareness of thoughts on the cushion is just a warm-up for more awareness during the day to come. It leads to (conditions?) more awareness later in the day, in my opinion. -------------- Yes, but can you direct your mind to just one, single, thought (concept)? I'd say not: when we think we are being aware of a concept, there is only thinking of a concept. Or there is thinking of thinking of a concept. The whole exercise is futile. -------------- KH: > >The Buddha did not list it as one of the factors for enlightenment. > > Ph: > Are you referring to the 7 factors, the bojjhanga? -------------- Tut tut! Have you been following all the threads on DSG or just the ones you are involved in? :-) I shouldn't criticise: I am a man of leisure (no job, no kids) and yet I still don't absorb all the information on DSG. I, along with Victor, Rob Ep, Jon and others, have been talking about the factors for enlightenment (as distinct from the factors *of* enlightenment). They are: association with the wise, hearing the Dhamma, wise reflection on the Dhamma and practice in accordance with the Dhamma. ------------------------ Ph: > So the concentration that rises as a citta accompanying other cittas, [KH: I think you meant to type, "as a cetasika accompanying other cetasikas"] universally, and the right concentration that is a path factor - are they the same thing? I am not fretting about trying to figure this out, yet, but I will continue to think about it. ---------------------- Yes, the cetasika, concentration (samadhi, ekagatta) always performs the same functions, be it in a wholesome way or an in unwholesome way. At a moment of supramundane Path consciousness, I think it is fair to say it has additional, kilesa-destroying, functions. ----------------- <. . .> Ph: > Contemplating concepts - that's something I want to ask about, but I will do it in another thread someday. Contemplating and allowing ideas to arise on a topic without forcing the issue. Very helpful, I think but I guess it's very hard to do in a way that is not about self seeking to gain something. > ----------------------------- Sounds like a good topic; I look forward to it. In the meantime, remember that understanding, here and now, is the key: don't think of Dhamma practice as `something to go out and do.' Kind regards, Ken H 33455 From: robmoult Date: Sat May 29, 2004 2:12am Subject: Paticcasamuppada and citta process (was Re: feeling?) Hi Larry, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@w... wrote: > Basically what I am looking for is more detail in citta process. For > example, feeling is obviously a big part of on-going ordinary experience > and it is said that feeing arises with every consciousness, but what > does that mean? What kind of process is happening that feeling is > experienced all the time? Is each consciousness in citta process itself > a sub-process? I see determining consciousness as predominantly > employing sanna. Does sanna also pick-up on feeling or remember a > feeling? Is investigating consciousness analytical in some sense? Does > it evoke a feeling? > > This is the general area of my interest. What is happening with feeling > in citta process? Let's look at vedana (I am going to use the term vedana because "feeling" carries with it too much baggage linked to emotion). Vedana has the characteristic of providing the direct and full experience of the object. The function of vedana is to "experiencing the taste/flavour of an object". Let's go through the 17 cittas in the sense-door process and consider the role of vedana in each citta. Citta 1 - 3: Bhavanaga ====================== This will be one of the eight mahavipaka cittas; the object of these cittas are from the previous life (kamma, kamma-nimitta, gati- nimitta). Four of these cittas are with neutral vedana, four are with pleasant vedana. I suspect (though I could be wrong) that the nature of the object determines the type of associated vedana; an intrinsically desireable neutral (ittha) object will condition neutral vedana while an intrinsically extremely desireable (ati- ittha) object will condition pleasant vedana. I suspect (though I could be wrong) that a person having a bhavanga citta with pleasant vedana will tend to be more jovial that a person having a bhavanga citta with neutral vedana. Citta 4: Adverting ================== This citta includes the seven ethically variable universal cetasikas, initial application, sustained application and determination. It is accompanied by indifferent vedana. This citta is functional (kiriya); it is not associated with kamma. Cetasikas in this citta are weak because the external object (the object of this citta) has not been "contacted" yet. When the mind starts to concentrate, one- pointedness comes into play. The mind concentrates attention on the source of the disturbance to the flow of bhavanga. Attention is the prominent cetasika, supported by one-pointedness. This concentration of attention adverts the mind and turns it toward the external object. Attention makes the mind different from the previous (bhavanga) mind by controlling the mind to advert to the new object. Citta 5: Sense Consciousness ============================ Conditions supporting the arising of a sense-consciousness citta include: - Falling away of the five-sense-door adverting citta - Door at which the object appears (eye, ear, nose, tongue, body) - Intrinsic quality of the object (undesirable, neutral, desirable) Based on the door and intrinsic quality of the object, one of the ten sense-consciousness cittas will arise: - An undesirable object will cause akusala vipaka to arise - A neutral or desirable object will cause kusala vipaka to arise The sense-consciousness citta has the function of seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting or touching. This is "pure sensing"; there is no processing of the sensory input. This citta is the resultant (vipaka) of a past kammic action (either akusala or kusala) which has now found conditions to ripen. This citta has only the seven ethically variable universal cetasikas. Contact is the prominent cetasika; it has the characteristic of touching the object and the function of causing the consciousness and the object to impinge. Contact in eye-consciousness, ear- consciousness, nose-consciousness and tongue-consciousness cittas always produces indifferent vedana while contact in akusala body- consciousness citta produces painful vedana and contact in kusala body-consciousness citta produces pleasurable vedana. Imagine that we have five anvils with a cotton ball on each. The cotton balls represent eye, ear, nose, tongue and body sensitivity. - In the first four cases, the cotton ball on the anvil is struck by another cotton ball; visible object, sound, odour and taste. In the first four cases, the anvil does cannot detect the striking and no feeling arises. - The cotton ball of body sensitivity is struck by a hammer of touch. In this case, the anvil detects the striking and vedana is either painful or pleasurable. Vedana arising with body-consciousness can only be painful or pleasurable, never neutral. In this analogy, the anvil and the hammer are "primary rupas", while the cotton balls are "derived rupas". Citta 6: Receiving ================== If the object is intrinsically undesirable, akusala vipaka receiving citta will arise. If the object is neutral or desirable, kusala vipaka receiving citta will arise. The receiving citta is the resultant of the same kammic action which gave rise to the sense- consciousness citta. This citta includes the seven ethically variable universal cetasikas plus initial application, sustained application and determination. Receiving citta is accompanied by indifferent vedana. Awareness of the object which has been contacted by the sense- consciousness citta conditions the strengthening of vedana. Vedana provides a direct and full experience of the object. The arising of vedana occurs on the initial application of attention. Vedana is the prominent cetasika in this vedana, supported by initial application. Citta 7: Investigating ====================== The function of this citta is to analyze the object by looking for marks of differentiation. If the object is intrinsically undesirable, akusala vipaka investigating citta will arise. If the object is neutral, kusala vipaka investigating citta with neutral vedana will arise. If the object is intrinsically desirable, kusala vipaka investigating citta with pleasant vedana will arise. The investigating citta is the resultant (vipaka) of the same kammic action which gave rise to the sense-door consciousness citta. This citta includes the seven universal ethically variable cetasikas plus initial application, sustained application and determination. The cetasika of enthusiasm also arises if the citta is accompanied by pleasant vedana (piti always accompanies pleasant vedana). The initial application from the receiving citta gives way to a deeper sustained application. This investigation from the sustained application allows the object to be recalled. Perception is the prominent cetasika in this citta supported by sustained application. The role of perception in this citta is recall; perception notes the qualities of the object and recognizes that the object has been perceived before. Citta 8: Determining ==================== The function of this citta is to come to a conclusion regarding the object. The previous three cittas (eye-consciousness, receiving and investigating) were either akusala vipaka or kusala vipaka, depending on the type of kamma which caused them to arise. The force behind the object may impact our vedana (from receiving citta) and our understanding (from investigating citta), but does not decide our reaction to the object. The role of the determining citta is to determine and define, It discriminates (differentiates) and defines (limits) the object to separate it from the surroundings. The determining citta includes the seven universal ethically variable cetasikas plus initial application, sustained application, determination and energy. The prominent cetasika in this citta is attention supported by determination. Whereas in the adverting stage, attention controlled the mind to advert to the new object, in the determining citta, attention controls the javana. This control is strengthened through conviction, which is the characteristic of determination. According to the Abhidhamma, what psychologists commonly call "apprehension" is three processes (receiving / discrimination -> investigating / analysis -> determining / concluding) arising in a natural sequence. Citta 9 - 15: Javana ==================== The falling away of the determining citta is one of the conditions for the arising of the Javana cittas, however it is natural decisive support condition that determines which type of Javana citta will arise. It is in the javana stage of the process that kamma is created. The weightiness of the kamma produced depends on the strength of the volition . It is natural decisive support that "decides" how strong the volition will be and therefore the weightiness of the resulting kamma. If one has akusala accumulations, the javana mental states will: - Cling to the object (lobha accumulations) - Have aversion to the object (dosa accumulations) - Be indifferent to the object (moha accumulations) If one has kusala accumulations, the object of the process will be "seen as it truly is" (with wise attention / yoniso manasikara). Lobha-mula cittas can arise with neutral vedana or with pleasant vedana. It is natural decisive support that "decides" the type of vedana which arises. Note that pleasant vedana is a condition for piti (enthusiasm) to arise and this in turn strengthens volition (cetana) resulting in stronger resultant kamma. Dosa-mula cittas always arise with unpleasant vedana and moha-mula cittas always arise with neutral vedana. My gut reaction is to say that this is conditioned through root condition, but this leaves the question as to why pleasant vedana is not always conditioned by lobha root. Citta 16 - 17: Registration =========================== These cittas perform the function of carrying forward the object to the next process. These cittas are vipaka, the resultant of the same kamma which caused the eye consciousness citta, the receiving citta and the investigating cittas. When present, there are two registration cittas in succession. Perception is the prominent cetasika in this citta supported by sustained application. In this citta, perception plays the role or recall. The vedana in this citta will follow the vedana in the investigating citta. Larry, let's now try to relate this to paticcasamuppada. Contact is the primary cetasika in sense consciousness citta as contacting the object is the role of the sense consciousness citta. Vedana is the primary cetasika in the receiving citta; the function of vedana is to get the experience of the object (together with initial application) and this is what the receiving citta does. One might be able to argue that vedana also plays an important role in the investigating citta as this is where sustained application together with perception play a more important role. This is supported by Vism XVII 231 which states that eye-contact (ear- contact, etc.) conditions vedana concomitant with receiving, investigating and registration cittas through natural decisive support condition. In my earlier analysis of paticcasamuppada, you will note that craving is defined as craving for sensuous data (visible-data, sound, odour, flavour, tangible-data, dhamma-data). This is not a citta or a cetasika; this is an accumulation. This is supported by Vism 237 - 238 which explains that the link between feeling and craving is through natural decisive support condition (i.e. accumulations at work). In my earlier analysis of paticcasamuppada, you will note that clinging is defined as sense desire clinging, false-view clinging, rite-and-ritual clinging, self-clinging (varieties of lobha and ditthi) through natural decisive support condition. These are the javana cittas of the citta process. In summary, we can make a mapping of paticcasamuppada into the citta process as follows: - Contact -> sense consciousness - Vedana -> receiving, investigating and registration cittas - Craving -> accumulations that tigger natural decisive support condition (conditions the arising of appropriate javana citta) - Clinging -> lobha and ditthi in the javana cittas Metta, Rob M :-) 33456 From: robmoult Date: Sat May 29, 2004 2:26am Subject: Vedana Hi All, We can probably say that unpleasant mental feeling in dosa-mula cittas arises through: - Root condition - Conascence condition - Mutuality condition - Support condition - Association condition - Presence condition - Nondisappearance condition We could probably say that neutral mental feeling arises in moha-mula cittas through the same conditions. There can be either pleasant mental feeling or neutral mental feeling with lobha-mula cittas. It seems to me that the deciding factor as to which type of feeling arises would have to be natural decisive support condition. It does not seem right to me that the intrinsic quality (anittha / ittha / ati-ittha) of the object would play a role. This leaves me with the question as to why one set of conditions would work with dosa-mula and moha-mula cittas whereas another set of conditions would work with lobha-mula cittas. Does anybody have any ideas? Metta, Rob M :-) 33457 From: robmoult Date: Sat May 29, 2004 3:39am Subject: Kamma Hi All, Let's take a closer look at kamma condition as described in the Patthana. There are two types of kamma-condition: - conascent kamma condition (sahajata-kammapaccaya) - asynchronous kamma condition (nanakkhanika-kammapaccaya) Conascent kamma condition is the "boring" type of kamma condition that allows 89 cetanas in all 89 cittas (irrespective of jati) to: - coordinate the functions of all of the other cetasikas - condition the arising of citta-born rupa at rebirth - condition the arising of kamma-born rupa at rebirth Asynchronous kamma condition is the "interesting" type of kamma. With asynchronous kamma condition, the conditioning factors are the 33 past kusala and akusala cetanas. This includes: - 12 kamavacara akusala cetanas - 8 kamavacara kusala cetanas - 5 rupavacara kusala cetanas - 4 arupavacara kusala cetanas - 4 lokutara kusala (path) cetanas With asynchronous kamma condition, the conditioned factors are: - 36 vipaka cittas (with their 38 associated cetasikas) - 7 kamavacara akusala vipaka cittas - 8 kamavacara kusala vipaka cittas - 8 kamavacara mahavipaka cittas - 5 rupavacara vipaka cittas - 4 arupavacara vipaka cittas - 4 lokutara vipaka (fruit) cittas - kamma-born rupas at rebirth (including asanna-bhava "rebirth") - kamma-born rupas during existence Kamma-born rupas are: - Earth - Water - Fire - Wind - Visible Object - Odour - Flavour - Nutrition - Eye Sense - Ear Sense - Nose Sense - Tongue Sense - Body Sense - Feminine - Masculine - Life - Heart - Space It is interesting to note that: - Visible object, the object of eye sense, is a kamma-born rupa - Odour, the object of nose sense, is a kamma-born rupa - Flavour, the object of tongue sense, is a kamma-born rupa - Earth / fire / wind, the object of body sense, are kamma-born rupas However, sound, the object of ear sense, is NOT a kamma-born rupa. Why is this? Note that visible object, odour, flavour, earth / fire / wind can also be born from citta, temperature and nutrition. Now imagine that an accident happens to me; a brick falls on my toe. Is this my kamma? The brick is not kamma-born rupa. Whatever imbalance caused the brick to fall was not caused by asynchronous kamma condition (none of the conditioned factors can push a brick). I suspect that the brick hitting my toe had nothing to do with kamma. If this is true, how can one say that "what happens to me is due to my kamma"? Any ideas? Metta, Rob M :-) 33458 From: robmoult Date: Sat May 29, 2004 4:11am Subject: Heart thing Hi All, A lurker sent me the following message off-list. I am choosing to reply here. ===== Hi Rob :) in few places, seems like all of them in thai forest tradition there is something about heart. "The Ballad of Liberation from the Khandhas" by Phra Bhuridatto (Mun)Wat Srapathum [Bangkok] states: [...] "What runs?" "What runs quickly is viññana, movements walking in a row, one after another. Not doubting that saññas are right, the heart gets caught up in the running back & forth. Saññas grab hold of things outside and pull them in to fool the mind, Making it think in confusion & go out searching, wandering astray. They fool it with various dhammas, like a mirage." "What gains total release from the five khandhas?" "The heart, of course, & the heart alone. It doesn't grasp or get entangled. No more poison of possessiveness, no more delusion, it stands alone. No saññas can fool it into following along behind them." [...] and now, in your EXCELENT text, [...]At the time of rebirth, consciousness concomitant with 23 vipaka citta s conditions rupa through: - Conascence condition. - Mutuality condition (only applies to heart-base rupa).[...] would you please tell me what this heart thing is? ===== My reply is as follows: You wrote, "seems like all of them in thai forest tradition". I disagree. "Heart" is a very important concept in many Mahayana traditions (Prajnaparamita Heart Sutta is highly revered). It would appear that in the first case, the author is using the term "heart" in a contemporary fashion to mean "mind", especially the emotional aspect of "mind". For example, in conventional speech, what do you mean when you say, "to follow my heart", "in my heart, I feel...", "I love you with all my heart"? In all cases, it is the emotional aspect of mind. In the second case, I am using the term "heart-base" (hadayavatthu). Here is a relevant extract from Bhikkhu Bodhi's Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma (p 144): According to the Pali commentators, the heart serves as the physical support for all cittas other than the two sets of fivefold sense consciousness, which take their respective sensitivities as their bases. In the canonical Abhidhamma the heart base is not expressly mentioned. The Patthana, the last book of the Abhidhamma Pitaka, simply speaks of "that matter in dependence on which the mind element and mind-consciousness element occur". The Commentaries, however, subsequently specific "that matter" to be the heart-base, a cavity situated within the physical heart. The commentary that Bhikkhu Bodhi is referring to is Vism VIII 111- 113. In classical India, it was believed that the mind was centered in the heart (not the brain). This was because it was clear that sense data moved about the body and the only thing that the ancient Indians could see as moving in the body was blood. Since all blood makes its way back to the heart, it was believed that the mind was centred in the heart. The fact that the canonical Abhidhamma did not slip into a common understanding of the day and avoided the issue by saying "that matter in dependence on which the mind element and mind-consciousness element occur" really impresses me. It suggests to me that the author of the Patthana knew that the heart was not centre of the mind but did not want to enter into that argument that would distract from the point of the Abhidhamma. Metta, Rob M :-) 33459 From: Date: Sat May 29, 2004 2:37am Subject: Re: [dsg] 'Birth is suffering, old age is suffering, death is suffering....' Hi, Larry - In a message dated 5/28/04 10:04:56 PM Eastern Daylight Time, LBIDD@w... writes: > It occurred to me today that impermanence could also be seen as amusing, > even laughable, not a source of suffering at all. ==================== Exactly so. But what is impermanent is a source of suffering when clung to. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 33460 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat May 29, 2004 6:42am Subject: Birth as dukkha (was:Do or not do something) Victor --- yu_zhonghao wrote: > Hi Jon and Sarah, > > Given the quote provided by Sarah, it is stated in Sammohavinodani > that birth is not itself dukkha, old age is not itself dukkha, death > is not itself dukkha. > > This view "birth is not itself dukkha, old age is not itself dukkha, > death is not itself dukkha" directly contradicts to what the Buddha > taught in the Noble Truth of the Dukkha that birth is dukkha, old > age is dukkha, death is dukkha. > > Do you mean that because the five aggregates of clinging/sustenance > are dukkha, birth is not itself dukkha, old age is not itself > dukkha, death is not itself dukkha? > > or > > Do you mean that birth is dukkha, old age is dukkha, death is dukkha? > > Metta, > Victor I do not see the Sammohavinodani passage quoted by Sarah as contradicting the first Noble Truth. The passage explains that birth is suffering in the sense of being the *basis for the arising of suffering*, rather than in the sense of *being itself suffering*. Thus it elucidates which of these 2 possible meanings is the intended one. As I see it, there are at least 2 obvious possible meanings of 'birth', 'old age' and 'death' in the statement of the first Noble Truth. These are: (a) birth, old age and death, taken individually, as the act of being born, of growing old and of dying, and (b) birth, old age and death, taken together, as the fact of being born, i.e., living (in samsara), and being bound to continue so. The Sammohavinodani seems to be saying that the idea of birth as *the (mere) act of being born* is not the intended meaning of birth in the first Noble Truth. Thinking about this, if the mere acts of birth, old age and death were the dukkha of the first Noble Truth, then I suppose much of one's life would not be dukkha, since birth and death are once-in-a-lifetime occurrences, and for most of the rest of the time there is no (obvious) indication of old age, no actual sorrow, no separation from the liked, etc. To me, the meanings ascribed by the Sammohavinodani to birth, old age and death are consistent with the statement of the first Noble Truth read as a whole, i.e., having regard in particular to the words 'in short, the 5 groups of existence connected with clinging are suffering' that invariably follow the mention of birth, old age and death. So, birth is dukkha, in the sense of being the basis for the arising of dukkha, rather than in the sense of being itself dukkha. Jon PS From a purely semantic point of view also, there is no direct contradiction between the statement "birth is dukkha" (in the first Noble Truth) and the statement "birth is not itself dukkha" (in the Sammohavinodani). Note that the Sammohavinodani does not assert that birth is not suffering. 33461 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat May 29, 2004 6:46am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: 'Meaning fully drawn out' vs. 'meaning to be inferred' Hasituppada --- hasituppada wrote: > > Dear Jon , > > I also contribute to the inference that all Sutta have to be > understood as they are without trying to stretch the meaning > further. All Suttas explain the basic principles of the Buddha's > teachings as exposed in the Dhammachakka pavattana Sutta. There was > no necessity for the Buddha to teach more than the principles to set > the disciple to sit to meditate and experience for himself the > anicca, dukkha and anatma. I take your point about not 'stretching' the meaning of suttas. However, are you rejecting the need for some expansion of the meaning of some suttas, from other parts of the Tipitaka, or from the commentaries? How do you regard the 2 kinds of teachings mentioned in the sutta quoted by Victor? Jon Anguttara Nikaya II.25 Neyyattha Sutta A Meaning to be Inferred Translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu. For free distribution only. --------------------------------------------------------------- "Monks, these two slander the Tathagata. Which two? He who explains a discourse whose meaning needs to be inferred as one whose meaning has already been fully drawn out. And he who explains a discourse whose meaning has already been fully drawn out as one whose meaning needs to be inferred. These are two who slander the Tathagata." ---------------------------------------------------------------- 33462 From: Date: Sat May 29, 2004 3:03am Subject: Re: [dsg] Conditioned? Concentration? ( was Re: I have a wonderful wife Hi, James - In a message dated 5/29/04 1:00:33 AM Eastern Daylight Time, buddhatrue@y... writes: > I'm afraid I must lack sufficient brain power to understand what you > are saying here. ;-)) Maybe if you re-explained in more simple > terms I could understand better and respond. > ================== I apologize for not being clearer. I think the bottom-line on what I was saying could be formulated as follows: I see one-pointedness as a basic mental function, I interpret it to be the inclination (a sankhara) to stick with or repeat the current object ot awareness (or whatever variation of it arises) in subsequent mindstates, and I see it as arising as an aspect of a mindstate. The stronger that inclination is, the more frequently awareness takes "the same" object, and the less frequently attention diverts to other objects as mindstates change. The one-pointedness formation is, as I see it, is the paramattha dhamma that is the basis for conventional concentration. Conventional concentration, per force, is seen as occuring across a span of mindstates, by its very definition - sticking with "the same" object for a period of time even as other factors may change, and it wouldn't make sense to attempt to apply the notion within a single mindstate. But that is not the case for the cetasika of one-pointedness. It is a paramattha dhamma, a fabricator of sorts which influences the content of consciousness, and it always occurs within a mindstate. I also see other mental factors, for example effort/energy/viriya, mindfulness, and clarity (clear comprehension) as serving to support the function of one-pointedness, which in turn is supportive of the others. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 33463 From: Date: Sat May 29, 2004 3:12am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: concentration and Panna Hi, Nina - In a message dated 5/29/04 2:43:46 AM Eastern Daylight Time, nilo@e... writes: > I quoted before Co texts: he taught Vinaya for > abandoning transgression (coarse defilements), sutta for eliminating medium > defilements by calm (here also samadhi is used, and it is translated as > concentration, but the meaning is calm), and Abhidhamma for eradicating > subtle defilements (latent tendencies) by wisdom. > ====================== I would concur with this, but only so long as "Abhidhamma" was being used in the generalized sense of "detailed analysis of dhammas and their relations," and not in the sense of Abhidhamma Pitaka, because everything that one requires is available in the Sutta Pitaka and (for the monks) the Vinaya Pitaka. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 33464 From: Date: Sat May 29, 2004 3:19am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: concentration and Panna Hi, Nina - In a message dated 5/29/04 2:43:46 AM Eastern Daylight Time, nilo@e... writes: > I think that the word concentration may mislead people. > with regard to vipassana: to me it seems very strange that you have to > concentrate first and then wisdom will arise. As I see it, they are > together, and concentration grows as wisdom grows, and at the moment of > lokuttara citta, samadhi has the strength of jhana, by conditions. In other > suttas we read: right understanding comes first, in other words, takes the > lead. > ========================= They are mutually supportive, as in the spiral analogy. But there are numerous suttas that emphasize the role of concentration as predecessor to insight, including the ones I recently quoted from the Anguttara Nikaya. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 33465 From: Date: Sat May 29, 2004 3:16am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: concentration and Panna Hi, Nina - In a message dated 5/29/04 2:43:46 AM Eastern Daylight Time, nilo@e... writes: > As to calm with sutta: when reflecting on a sutta there is calm, freedom > from akusala. Is this not true? > --------------------------------------- Howard: For some people at some times. For doctrinnaire followers of other religions or for some materialists or sceptics there might only be anger and upset. -------------------------------------- There are times for contemplating on the> > Dhamma, and it depends on circumstances and inclinations when and where one > can do this. This helps to understand the Dhamma. But panna is necessary for > this. Others may have skill and inclination to develop higher degrees of > calm. This is not so much a matter of concentration, but calm, conditioned > by panna. Panna has to know whether there is kusala citta or akusala citta > (see example of brahmaviharas in previous post). Panna has to be emphasized > again. > ======================= Concentration is important even here. Calm supports concentration, aand concentration supports understanding. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 33466 From: Date: Sat May 29, 2004 3:25am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: concentration and Panna Hi, Nina - In a message dated 5/29/04 2:43:46 AM Eastern Daylight Time, nilo@e... writes: > When considering the practice: what has to be known now? Whatever nama or > rupa appears through one of the six doors. Panna has to become keener. It > has to know their different characteristics and later on the three general > characteristics. I cannot possibly see how there would have to be > concentration first on what appears and after that panna. But the object has > gone, concentration has gone and there is a new reality appearing. There is > no time to figure out any order, a dhamma appears already. No time to even > think of concentration. Certainly, it is there, in the company of > understanding, if there are conditions for panna. Suppose I would say: come, > let me concentrate on seeing, but then the seeing has gone when I think > about it, and I am only thinking and thinking. Never knowing what seeing is, > never realizing seeing as a nama that just appears for a moment because of > its own conditions. When panna is not developed there will be just ignorance > of realities. > Does this make any sense to you? > Nina. > ====================== One needn't *think* of concentration. In fact, doing so would be a distraction. One merely exerts energy in attending to something (of value), and supported by a degree of calm already in place and by increasing mindfulness, one-pointedness increases, which in turn supports further calm, attention, mindfulness, and "easy energy". With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 33467 From: htootintnaing Date: Sat May 29, 2004 8:12am Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 022 ) Dear Dhamma Friends, Cittas can still be classified depending on where they have to depend. No citta can arise without rupa where they have to depend with the only exception of arupavacara cittas. 1. 2 cakkhu vinnana cittas ( 1 akusala and 1 kusala )have to depend on cakkhu pasada rupa. Cakkhu means 'related to eye'. Vinnana is made up of 'vi' and 'nana'. Vi means 'distinctly, distinguishingly, particularly, especially' and 'nana' means knowledge or awareness or knowing. Pasada means 'orderly arranged in clear manner'. Pasada rupas are sense receptors such as eye, ear, nose, tongue, and body. But these eye, ear, nose, tongue, and body of conventional things are not of pasada rupa. Eyes that we can see with our eyes are not cakkhu pasada and other sense organ like ear, nose, tongue, body what we can see, smell, hear, taste, touch are not of pasada rupa. Pasada rupa are subtle rupa called sukhuma rupa. Cakkhu pasada rupa is also caled cakkhu vatthu. Vatthu means 'place to stand' 'site to dwell' 'home to live' 'material to depend'. 2. 2 sota vinnana cittas ( akusala and kusala )have to depend on sota vatthu. Sota means 'related to ear'. 3. 2 ghana vinnana cittas ( akusala and kusala )have to depend on ghana vatthu. Ghana means 'related to nose'. 4. 2 jivha vinnana cittas ( akusala and kusala )have to depend on jivha vatthu. Jivha means 'related to tongue'. 5. 2 kaya vinnana cittas ( akusala and kusala )have to depend on kaya vatthu. 10 pancavinnana cittas ( 5 akusala and 5 kusala ) have to depend on 5 panca vatthu. 6. 33 cittas always depend on hadaya vatthu. These 33 are 3 manodhatus namely 1 pancadvaravajjana citta and 2 sampaticchana cittas ( kusala and akusala ), 3 santirana cittas of 1 akusala santirana, 1 upekkha santirana, 1 somanassa santirana cittas, 8 mahavipaka cittas ( half somanassa and half upekkha, again each half has half nanasampayutta and half nana vippayutta, and again these 4 halves have half asankharika and half sasankharika ), 2 dosa cittas of 1 asankharika and 1 sasankharika citta, 1 sotapatti magga citta , 1 hasituppada citta, and 15 rupavacara cittas. 3 manodhatu + 3 santirana + 8 mahavipaka + 2 dosa + 1 sotapatti magga + 1 hasituppada + 15 rupavacara = 33 cittas always have to depend on hadaya vatthu. 7. 42 cittas sometimes have to depend on hadaya vatthu and sometimes do not have to depend on hadaya vatthu. This sometimes means 'when in arupa brahma bhumi'. In pancavokara bhumis that is bhumis where all 5 khandhas or agreegates are present, these 42 cittas always have to depend on hadaya vatthu. When in catuvokara bhumis that is when in arupa brahma bhumis where there is only 4 nammakkhandhas are present, these 42 cittas do not have to depend on hadaya vatthu. 4 namakkhandhas are 1.vedanakkhandha, 2. sannakkhandha, 3. sankharakkhandha, and 4. vinnanakkhandha. 42 cittas here are 8 kama kusala cittas, 4 arupa kusala cittas, 10 akusala cittas ( 12 - 2 dosa which depend on hadaya ), 8 mahakiriya cittas, 4 arupa kiriya cittas, 7 of 8 lokuttara cittas ( 8 - 1 sotapatti magga citta which depend on hadaya vatthu ) and 1 manodvaravajjana citta. 8 + 4 + 10 + 8 + 4 + 7 + 1 = 42 cittas. 8. 4 cittas never have to depend on any vatthu. These 4 cittas are 4 arupavipaka cittas. As vipaka cittas they are patisandhi, bhavanga and cuti cittas of arupa brahmas and they are dvara vimutti cittas that is they do not have to depend on dvara and they also do not have to depend on any vatthu. 10 cittas have to depend on pancavatthu. 33 cittas always have to depend on hadaya vatthu. 42 cittas depend on hadaya vatthu while in pancavokara bhumis and do not depend on hadaya vatthu while in catuvokara bhumis. 4 cittas never depend on any vatthu. 10 + 33 + 42 + 4 = 89 cittas. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 33468 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Sat May 29, 2004 9:04am Subject: Re: Birth as dukkha (was:Do or not do something) Hi Jon, Ok, I take your words that you do not see the Sammohavinodani passage quoted by Sarah as contradicting the first Noble Truth. If one doesn't see the contradiction, then one doesn't see it. It would be futile for one to help a blinded person to see a dot by simply pointing to the dot. Metta, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Victor > > --- yu_zhonghao wrote: > Hi Jon and Sarah, > > > > Given the quote provided by Sarah, it is stated in Sammohavinodani > > that birth is not itself dukkha, old age is not itself dukkha, death > > is not itself dukkha. > > > > This view "birth is not itself dukkha, old age is not itself dukkha, > > death is not itself dukkha" directly contradicts to what the Buddha > > taught in the Noble Truth of the Dukkha that birth is dukkha, old > > age is dukkha, death is dukkha. > > > > Do you mean that because the five aggregates of clinging/sustenance > > are dukkha, birth is not itself dukkha, old age is not itself > > dukkha, death is not itself dukkha? > > > > or > > > > Do you mean that birth is dukkha, old age is dukkha, death is dukkha? > > > > Metta, > > Victor > > I do not see the Sammohavinodani passage quoted by Sarah as contradicting > the first Noble Truth. [snip] > > Jon > > PS From a purely semantic point of view also, there is no direct > contradiction between the statement "birth is dukkha" (in the first Noble > Truth) and the statement "birth is not itself dukkha" (in the > Sammohavinodani). Note that the Sammohavinodani does not assert that > birth is not suffering. 33469 From: htootintnaing Date: Sat May 29, 2004 9:48am Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 023 ) Dear Dhamma Friends, Cittas can still be classified according to their objects. Each arising citta has to hold an object. Each has to take an object or arammana. There is no citta that does not have object or arammana. 10 pancavinnana cittas or 10 sense-consciousness that is 2 of each of eye-consciousness or cakkhu vinnana cittas, ear-consciousness or sotavinnana cittas, nose-consciousness or ghana vinnana cittas, tongue-consciousness or jivhavinnana cittas, body-consciousness or kayavinnana cittas have to take their respective object. Pancadvaravajjana citta, 2 sampaticchana cittas of kusala and akusala have to take their respective arammana or object of 5 that is rupa or sight, sadda or sound, gandha or smell, rasa or taste, and photthabba or touch. 11 kamavacara vipaka cittas that is 8 mahavipaka cittas and 3 santirana cittas and hasituppada cittas have to take kamavacara arammana or object that is sense-related object. So 10 pancavinnana cittas, 3 manodhatu and 12 cittas cited above altogether 25 cittas always take one of kamavacara arammana or kama object that is senses from 5 object of sight, sound, smell, taste, and touch. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 33470 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sat May 29, 2004 11:17am Subject: Re: [dsg] Htoo: Perseverance in Dhamma, nibbana Dear Htoo, op 28-05-2004 21:32 schreef htootintnaing op htootintnaing@y...: > Nåma is the dhamma that experiences an object and rúpa is the > dhamma > that does not know anything. Htoo: You said that 'Nama' is the dhamma that experiences an object Is 'Nibbana' nama dhamma? N: Yes. The Dhammasangani says, it is aruupa. Thus it is nama. This is explained in the Expositor (p. 501) . Namati to bend. It bends faultless dhammas "onto itself by means of the causal relation of the dominant influence of object." H: If so, can > nibbana experiences an object? N: No. It is the object of citta that experiences it. It is unconditioned dhamma, and thus, it could not be conditioned by object-condition nor by any other condition. Citta and cetasika are conditioned by object-condition. Nina. 33471 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sat May 29, 2004 11:17am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: feeling? Hi Larry, It accompanies each citta, it arises and falls away with the citta, completely. Each moment there is a different feeling, it never is the same. Also bhavanga-citta is accompanied by feeling. Nina. op 29-05-2004 02:07 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > This is the general area of my interest. What is happening with feeling > in citta process? 33472 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sat May 29, 2004 11:17am Subject: Perseverance in Dhamma, Ch 3, no 1 Perseverance in Dhamma, Ch 3, no 1 The Best of Sights. The Sutta selected for our sutta reading and discussion in the Foundation building was the Bhaddaji Sutta Gradual Sayings, Book of the Fives, Ch 17, § 10). We read that Ånanda, when he was dwelling near Kosambí, in Ghosita Park, asked Bhaddaji: ³Good Bhaddaji, what is the best of sights, what the best of sounds, what the best of joys, what the best of conscious states, and what the best of of becomings?² ³There is Brahmå, sir, who is overcomer, by none overcome, he is seer of whatever may be, with power and dominion; who sees him of the Brahmås, that is the best of sights. There are devas of radiant splendour, in whom joy flows and overflows, who ever and again utter a cry of: ŒJoy, oh joy!¹ who hears that sound- it is the best of sounds. There are the all-lustrous devas, rejoicing just in quiet, who feel joy- that is the best of joys. There are the devas who go to the sphere of nothingness [1] theirs is the best of conscious states. There are devas who go to the sphere of neither consciousness nor unconsciousness [2] theirs is the best of becomings². We read that Ånanda said : ³When, while one looks, the cankers are destroyed- that is the best of sights. When, while one listens, the cankers are destroyed- that is the best of sounds. When, while one rejoices, the cankers are destroyed- that is the best of joys. When, while one is conscious, the cankers are destroyed- that is the best of conscious states. When, while one has become, the cankers are destroyed- that is the best of becomings.² This sutta explains that the attainment of arahatship is superior to all other experiences, even to the attainment to the highest stages of immaterial jhåna, arúpa jhåna, which are the sphere of nothingness and the sphere of neither perception nor non-perception. When all defilements are eradicated at the attainment of arahatship, there will be no more rebirth, no more ³becoming² and this is to be preferred to any kind of ³becoming². Footnotes: 1. The third stage of immaterial jhåna, arúpa-jhåna. 2. The fourth stage of arúpa-jhåna. ****** Nina. 33473 From: Larry Date: Sat May 29, 2004 2:07pm Subject: Re: [dsg] 'Birth is suffering, old age is suffering, death is suffering....' Hi Victor, Thanks for this explanation of upadana. It seems clear that the upadana link in dependent arising is precisely where self-view arises; although we could say it is implicit throughout much of the dependent arising. The four dimensions of clinging (sense objects, views, rites and rituals, and self views) seem like a more pointed way of classifying the khandhas and concepts as objects of clinging. Any ideas on how these four "focus" or orient objects of consciousness? Why not just say clinging clings to everything except nibbana? Translating upadana as "clinging/sustenance" brings out the sense of upadana as cause of dukkha (fuel for the fire). Also it seems clear that clinging and dukkha are "bound" together. I wonder by what conditions? I don't have anything to add on amusement as a possible response to impermanence. It is a matter of the state of mind that apprehends impermanence. Analyzing a sense of humor in terms of cittas and cetasikas is way beyond my abilities. Care to try it? Larry --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "yu_zhonghao" wrote: > Hi Larry, > > May I ask that: > > Reply in context. > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@w... wrote: > > Hi Victor, > > > > It occurred to me today that impermanence could also be seen as > amusing, > > even laughable, not a source of suffering at all. This doesn't add > > anything to our understanding but it is curious. > > > What is it that is impermanent you see as amusing or laughable? > > Is something that is impermanent that you see as amusing or > laughable? > > > > > > > Also, do you know why upadana is translated > as "clinging/sustenance"? > > > Yes. Let me provide four references at the end of the message. You > might also be interested to check their context. > > > > > > Is > > there some reference to nutriment here? > > > Do you mean nutriment as in > Majjhima Nikaya 9 > Sammaditthi Sutta > The Discourse on Right View > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/majjhima/mn009.html > > ? > > > > > > I wonder if upadana is the sense of self or appropriation as me and > > mine? > > > I adopted the following translation from > Samyutta Nikaya XII.2 > Paticca-samuppada-vibhanga Sutta > Analysis of Dependent Co-arising > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn12-002.html > > "And what is clinging/sustenance? These four are > clingings/sustenances: clinging/sustenance of sensuality, > clinging/sustenance of view, clinging/sustenance of precept & > practice, and clinging/sustenance of doctrine of self. This is > called clinging/sustenance." > > > > > > > Larry > > Hope it helps. > > Metta, > Victor > > [1] > The five aggregates, on their own, do not constitute suffering or > stress. They are stressful only when functioning as objects of > clinging/sustenance. This hybrid word -- clinging/sustenance -- is a > translation of the Pali term upadana. Upadana has a hybrid meaning > because it is used to cover two sides of a physical process > metaphorically applied to the mind: the act of clinging whereby a > fire takes sustenance from a piece of fuel, together with the > sustenance offered by the fuel. On the level of the mind, upadana > denotes both the act of clinging and the object clung to, which > together give sustenance to the process whereby mental pain arises. > In terms of this metaphor, pain is hot and unstable like fire, > whereas the mental act of clinging to the five aggregates is what > keeps the fire burning. These images are part of a larger complex of > imagery contained in the Pali discourses, likening the processes of > pain and its cessation to the physical processes of fire and its > extinguishing. An understanding of this imagery helps to give a > graphic, intuitive sense for the ways in which the Pali texts > analyze the problem of stress and pain. > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/modern/thanissaro/wings/3h2.html > > [2] > Once a fire has been provoked, it needs 'upadana' -- commonly > translated as fuel -- to continue burning. Upadana has other > meanings besides fuel, though -- one is the nourishment that > sustains the life & growth of a tree -- and as we will see below, > wind can also function as a fire's upadana. Thus, 'sustenance' would > seem to be a more precise translation for the term. > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/modern/thanissaro/likefire/2- > 2.html > > [3] > Another meaning for upadana is clinging, which suggests that, just > as a tree clings to the soil that provides its sustenance, fire > clings to its fuel. Thus the above passage could also read, 'fire > burns with clinging and not without clinging' -- a characteristic of > fire that was observed in other ancient Asian traditions, such as > the Chinese I Ching, as well. > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/modern/thanissaro/likefire/2- > 2.html > > [4] > To understand the implications of nibbana in the present life, it is > necessary to know something of the way in which fire is described in > the Pali Canon. There, fire is said to be caused by the excitation > or agitation of the heat property. To continue burning, it must have > sustenance (upadana). Its relationship to its sustenance is one of > clinging, dependence, & entrapment. When it goes out, the heat > property is no longer agitated, and the fire is said to be freed. > Thus the metaphor of nibbana in this case would have implications of > calming together with release from dependencies, attachments, & > bondage. This in turn suggests that of all the attempts to describe > the etymology of the word nibbana, the closest is one Buddhaghosa > proposed in The Path of Purification: Un- (nir) + binding (vana): > Unbinding. > > To understand further what is meant by the unbinding of the mind, it > is also important to know that the word upadana -- the sustenance > for the fire -- also means clinging, and that according to the > Buddha the mind has four forms of clinging that keep it in bondage: > clinging to sensuality, to views, to precepts & practices, and to > doctrines of the self. In each case, the clinging is the passion & > desire the mind feels for these things. To overcome this clinging, > then, the mind must see not only the drawbacks of these four objects > of clinging, but, more importantly, the drawbacks of the act of > passion & desire itself. > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/modern/thanissaro/likefire/1.html 33474 From: Larry Date: Sat May 29, 2004 2:43pm Subject: Paticcasamuppada and citta process (was Re: feeling?) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" wrote: ...In summary, we can make a mapping of paticcasamuppada into the citta process as follows: - Contact -> sense consciousness - Vedana -> receiving, investigating and registration cittas - Craving -> accumulations that trigger natural decisive support condition (conditions the arising of appropriate javana citta) - Clinging -> lobha and ditthi in the javana cittas. Hi Rob, This is great! Exactly what I was looking for. I am a little uneasy about calling craving accumulation. It seems to me accumulation (ayuhana) is part of the gear of sanna. What do you think of Boisvert's argument that sanna is implicit between feeling and craving? This seems to follow the citta process order of things. The main question I have is what cetasika determines whether an object is inherently desirable or undesirable? Say there is contact with softness. If the object is desirable pleasant feeling will arise, if undesirable unpleasant feeling will arise. I imagine in some processes there is indecision, waffling back and forth. Also what does it mean to say feeling experiences softness? Are the two experienced at the same time or sequentially? If sequentially is it necessarily a whole separate process or could there be an experiencing of cetasikas within a process, possibly in the order in which they are dominant? I'm going to have to study-up on conditional relations in order to discuss them with you. Maybe I'll do that over the long weekend. It's a holiday on monday. Larry > Hi Larry, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@w... wrote: > > Basically what I am looking for is more detail in citta process. For > > example, feeling is obviously a big part of on-going ordinary > experience > > and it is said that feeing arises with every consciousness, but what > > does that mean? What kind of process is happening that feeling is > > experienced all the time? Is each consciousness in citta process > itself > > a sub-process? I see determining consciousness as predominantly > > employing sanna. Does sanna also pick-up on feeling or remember a > > feeling? Is investigating consciousness analytical in some sense? > Does > > it evoke a feeling? > > > > This is the general area of my interest. What is happening with > feeling > > in citta process? > > Let's look at vedana (I am going to use the term vedana > because "feeling" carries with it too much baggage linked to > emotion). Vedana has the characteristic of providing the direct and > full experience of the object. The function of vedana is > to "experiencing the taste/flavour of an object". > > Let's go through the 17 cittas in the sense-door process and consider > the role of vedana in each citta. > > Citta 1 - 3: Bhavanaga > ====================== > This will be one of the eight mahavipaka cittas; the object of these > cittas are from the previous life (kamma, kamma-nimitta, gati- > nimitta). Four of these cittas are with neutral vedana, four are with > pleasant vedana. I suspect (though I could be wrong) that the nature > of the object determines the type of associated vedana; an > intrinsically desireable neutral (ittha) object will condition > neutral vedana while an intrinsically extremely desireable (ati- > ittha) object will condition pleasant vedana. I suspect (though I > could be wrong) that a person having a bhavanga citta with pleasant > vedana will tend to be more jovial that a person having a bhavanga > citta with neutral vedana. > > Citta 4: Adverting > ================== > This citta includes the seven ethically variable universal cetasikas, > initial application, sustained application and determination. It is > accompanied by indifferent vedana. This citta is functional (kiriya); > it is not associated with kamma. Cetasikas in this citta are weak > because the external object (the object of this citta) has not > been "contacted" yet. When the mind starts to concentrate, one- > pointedness comes into play. The mind concentrates attention on the > source of the disturbance to the flow of bhavanga. Attention is the > prominent cetasika, supported by one-pointedness. This concentration > of attention adverts the mind and turns it toward the external > object. Attention makes the mind different from the previous > (bhavanga) mind by controlling the mind to advert to the new object. > > Citta 5: Sense Consciousness > ============================ > Conditions supporting the arising of a sense-consciousness citta > include: > - Falling away of the five-sense-door adverting citta > - Door at which the object appears (eye, ear, nose, tongue, body) > - Intrinsic quality of the object (undesirable, neutral, desirable) > > Based on the door and intrinsic quality of the object, one of the ten > sense-consciousness cittas will arise: > - An undesirable object will cause akusala vipaka to arise > - A neutral or desirable object will cause kusala vipaka to arise > > The sense-consciousness citta has the function of seeing, hearing, > smelling, tasting or touching. This is "pure sensing"; there is no > processing of the sensory input. This citta is the resultant (vipaka) > of a past kammic action (either akusala or kusala) which has now > found conditions to ripen. > > This citta has only the seven ethically variable universal cetasikas. > Contact is the prominent cetasika; it has the characteristic of > touching the object and the function of causing the consciousness and > the object to impinge. Contact in eye-consciousness, ear- > consciousness, nose-consciousness and tongue-consciousness cittas > always produces indifferent vedana while contact in akusala body- > consciousness citta produces painful vedana and contact in kusala > body-consciousness citta produces pleasurable vedana. > > Imagine that we have five anvils with a cotton ball on each. The > cotton balls represent eye, ear, nose, tongue and body sensitivity. > - In the first four cases, the cotton ball on the anvil is struck by > another cotton ball; visible object, sound, odour and taste. In the > first four cases, the anvil does cannot detect the striking and no > feeling arises. > - The cotton ball of body sensitivity is struck by a hammer of touch. > In this case, the anvil detects the striking and vedana is either > painful or pleasurable. Vedana arising with body-consciousness can > only be painful or pleasurable, never neutral. > > In this analogy, the anvil and the hammer are "primary rupas", while > the cotton balls are "derived rupas". > > Citta 6: Receiving > ================== > If the object is intrinsically undesirable, akusala vipaka receiving > citta will arise. If the object is neutral or desirable, kusala > vipaka receiving citta will arise. The receiving citta is the > resultant of the same kammic action which gave rise to the sense- > consciousness citta. This citta includes the seven ethically variable > universal cetasikas plus initial application, sustained application > and determination. Receiving citta is accompanied by indifferent > vedana. > > Awareness of the object which has been contacted by the sense- > consciousness citta conditions the strengthening of vedana. Vedana > provides a direct and full experience of the object. The arising of > vedana occurs on the initial application of attention. Vedana is the > prominent cetasika in this vedana, supported by initial application. > > Citta 7: Investigating > ====================== > The function of this citta is to analyze the object by looking for > marks of differentiation. > > If the object is intrinsically undesirable, akusala vipaka > investigating citta will arise. If the object is neutral, kusala > vipaka investigating citta with neutral vedana will arise. If the > object is intrinsically desirable, kusala vipaka investigating citta > with pleasant vedana will arise. The investigating citta is the > resultant (vipaka) of the same kammic action which gave rise to the > sense-door consciousness citta. This citta includes the seven > universal ethically variable cetasikas plus initial application, > sustained application and determination. The cetasika of enthusiasm > also arises if the citta is accompanied by pleasant vedana (piti > always accompanies pleasant vedana). > > The initial application from the receiving citta gives way to a > deeper sustained application. This investigation from the sustained > application allows the object to be recalled. Perception is the > prominent cetasika in this citta supported by sustained application. > The role of perception in this citta is recall; perception notes the > qualities of the object and recognizes that the object has been > perceived before. > > Citta 8: Determining > ==================== > The function of this citta is to come to a conclusion regarding the > object. > > The previous three cittas (eye-consciousness, receiving and > investigating) were either akusala vipaka or kusala vipaka, depending > on the type of kamma which caused them to arise. The force behind the > object may impact our vedana (from receiving citta) and our > understanding (from investigating citta), but does not decide our > reaction to the object. The role of the determining citta is to > determine and define, It discriminates (differentiates) and defines > (limits) the object to separate it from the surroundings. > > The determining citta includes the seven universal ethically variable > cetasikas plus initial application, sustained application, > determination and energy. The prominent cetasika in this citta is > attention supported by determination. > > Whereas in the adverting stage, attention controlled the mind to > advert to the new object, in the determining citta, attention > controls the javana. This control is strengthened through conviction, > which is the characteristic of determination. > > According to the Abhidhamma, what psychologists commonly > call "apprehension" is three processes (receiving / discrimination - > > investigating / analysis -> determining / concluding) arising in a > natural sequence. > > Citta 9 - 15: Javana > ==================== > The falling away of the determining citta is one of the conditions > for the arising of the Javana cittas, however it is natural decisive > support condition that determines which type of Javana citta will > arise. > > It is in the javana stage of the process that kamma is created. The > weightiness of the kamma produced depends on the strength of the > volition . It is natural decisive support that "decides" how strong > the volition will be and therefore the weightiness of the resulting > kamma. > > If one has akusala accumulations, the javana mental states will: > - Cling to the object (lobha accumulations) > - Have aversion to the object (dosa accumulations) > - Be indifferent to the object (moha accumulations) > > If one has kusala accumulations, the object of the process will > be "seen as it truly is" (with wise attention / yoniso manasikara). > > Lobha-mula cittas can arise with neutral vedana or with pleasant > vedana. It is natural decisive support that "decides" the type of > vedana which arises. Note that pleasant vedana is a condition for > piti (enthusiasm) to arise and this in turn strengthens volition > (cetana) resulting in stronger resultant kamma. > > Dosa-mula cittas always arise with unpleasant vedana and moha-mula > cittas always arise with neutral vedana. My gut reaction is to say > that this is conditioned through root condition, but this leaves the > question as to why pleasant vedana is not always conditioned by lobha > root. > > Citta 16 - 17: Registration > =========================== > These cittas perform the function of carrying forward the object to > the next process. These cittas are vipaka, the resultant of the same > kamma which caused the eye consciousness citta, the receiving citta > and the investigating cittas. When present, there are two > registration cittas in succession. Perception is the prominent > cetasika in this citta supported by sustained application. In this > citta, perception plays the role or recall. The vedana in this citta > will follow the vedana in the investigating citta. > > > Larry, let's now try to relate this to paticcasamuppada. > > Contact is the primary cetasika in sense consciousness citta as > contacting the object is the role of the sense consciousness citta. > > Vedana is the primary cetasika in the receiving citta; the function > of vedana is to get the experience of the object (together with > initial application) and this is what the receiving citta does. One > might be able to argue that vedana also plays an important role in > the investigating citta as this is where sustained application > together with perception play a more important role. This is > supported by Vism XVII 231 which states that eye-contact (ear- > contact, etc.) conditions vedana concomitant with receiving, > investigating and registration cittas through natural decisive > support condition. > > In my earlier analysis of paticcasamuppada, you will note that > craving is defined as craving for sensuous data (visible-data, sound, > odour, flavour, tangible-data, dhamma-data). This is not a citta or a > cetasika; this is an accumulation. This is supported by Vism 237 - > 238 which explains that the link between feeling and craving is > through natural decisive support condition (i.e. accumulations at > work). > > In my earlier analysis of paticcasamuppada, you will note that > clinging is defined as sense desire clinging, false-view clinging, > rite-and-ritual clinging, self-clinging (varieties of lobha and > ditthi) through natural decisive support condition. These are the > javana cittas of the citta process. > > In summary, we can make a mapping of paticcasamuppada into the citta > process as follows: > - Contact -> sense consciousness > - Vedana -> receiving, investigating and registration cittas > - Craving -> accumulations that tigger natural decisive support > condition (conditions the arising of appropriate javana citta) > - Clinging -> lobha and ditthi in the javana cittas > > Metta, > Rob M :-) 33475 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat May 29, 2004 3:29pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Breath as bodily formation (was, Pannatti (Concept)) Victor --- yu_zhonghao wrote: > Hi Jon, > > In-&-out breathings, fabrications, fabricated, are inconstant, > dukkha, not self. > > Metta, > Victor As far as I know, there's no direct statement to this effect in the texts. What is found in the texts are the statements that (1) all conditioned dhammas (sankhara) are anicca/dukkha/anatta, and (2) kaaya-sankhaara is in-&-out breathing. As I have previously explained, however, we cannot conclude from this that in-&-out breathing is anicca/dukkha/anatta, since the different uses of 'sankhara' cannot be substituted for each other in a straightforward manner. If you have a copy of the 'Collected Discourses of the Buddha', Bhikkhu Bodhi's translation of the Samyutta Nikaya, you may like to look at his comments on 'Sankhara' in the General Introduction (pages 44 to 47), where he discusses the 'five major doctrinal contexts' in which the term occurs in the Samyutta Nikaya. For example, in the context of dependent origination, sankhara is synonymous with 'kamma' (i.e., cetana cetasika), and kaaya-sankhaara means kamma performed through the body door. The sutta at 41:6 deals with cessation of perception and feeling. In note 298 (p 1442) the translator says: "The three terms -- kaaya-sankhaara, vacii-sankhaara and citta-sankhaara -- are in Pali identical with those that make up the sankhara factor of dependent origination..., but in this context the purport is different ... .Here, in the compounds kaaya-sankhaara and citta-sankhaara, sankhara clearly has a passive sense: what is formed or generated ('sankhariiyati') in dependence on the body or the mind." This sense of 'being formed in dependence of the body' is of course quite different from the cetana accompanying actions through the body door (in the dependent origination context). However the crucial difference, as regards the statement that all conditioned dhammas (sankhara) are anicca/dukkha/anatta, is that there is no dhamma called in-&-out breathing. Jon 33476 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat May 29, 2004 3:32pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Breath as bodily formation (was, Pannatti (Concept)) Mike --- "m. nease" wrote: > Hi Jon, > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Jonothan Abbott" > To: > Sent: Saturday, May 22, 2004 3:55 PM > Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Breath as bodily formation (was, Pannatti > (Concept)) > > > In the teachings it is individual dhammas that are said to exhibit the > 3 > > characteristics of anicca/dukkha/anatta, not the supposed objects that > we > > conceive of a being composites of individual dhammas. > > > > Thus, the hardness or softness, heat or cold and other 'dhammas' that > are > > taken for 'breath' are all said to exhibit the 3 characteristics you > > mention. But person, body and breath are not dhammas and are do not > > exhibit intrinsic characteristics, as I understand the teachings. > > I know we've discussed this difference a lot but I'm not sure I've seen > it > so well and succinctly articulated before. Thanks, Mike. It becomes clearer to me each time I come back to it, but only of course at the intellectual level. I do believe that understanding the significance of dhammas and their characteristics as given in the teachings is crucial to the development of insight. Jon 33477 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat May 29, 2004 3:53pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Pannatti (Concept) Victor As I have previously mentioned, the terms kaaya-sankhaara, vacii-sankhaara and citta-sankhaara are used in 2 different contexts, and have different meanings in each. The first sutta you mention below (SN 12:2) deals with sankhaara in the context of dependent origination, where it is explained in terms of bodily-, verbal- and mental-volitional formations. The explanation given in the commentaries for these 3 terms is as follows (from Collected Discourses of the Buddha, n. 7 at p. 727): kaaya-sankhaara -- twenty kinds of bodily volition (kayasancetana) that motivate activity in the body door vacii-sankhaara -- twenty kinds of verbal volition (vaciisancetana) that motivate verbal utterances citta-sankhaara -- twenty-nine mundane wholesome and unwholesome mental volitions (manosancetana) that occur privately in thought without motivating action in the doors of body and speech. The second sutta you mention (MN 44) deals with cessation of perception and feeling. As you have pointed out, the description of each term given in the suttas is as follows: kaaya-sankhaara -- in-&-out breathing vacii-sankhaara -- thought and examination (vitakka and vicara) citta-sankhaara -- perception and feeling (sanna and vedana) In that context, the 3 terms apparently refer to the different kinds of activity that cease and as the cessation of perception and feeling is entered into, and that later resume as the cessation of perception and feeling is left. In a note to SN 12:2 referred to above, the translator says that sankhaara in the context of dependent origination should be distinguished from sankhaara in the context of cessation of perception and feeling (note 7 at pp 727, 728 of CDB): "This triad of sankhara should not be confused with the triad discussed at 41:6... The latter triad is always introduced in relation to the cessation of perception and feeling and is never brought into connection with dependent origination." In the context of dependent origination, kaaya-sankhaara refers to specific dhammas that are anicca/dukkha/anatta, while in the context of cessation of perception and feeling kaaya-sankhaara refers to in-&-out breathing. In-&-out breathing is not a specific dhamma but is, like 'person' and 'body', a term used to denote a particular group or groups of dhammas as generally perceived. See my answers to your specific questions below. --- yu_zhonghao wrote: > Hi Jon, Mike, and all, > > Let me quote the following: > > > "And what are fabrications? These three are fabrications: bodily > fabrications, verbal fabrications, mental fabrications. These are > called fabrications." > > Samyutta Nikaya XII.2, Paticca-samuppada-vibhanga Sutta > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn12-002.html > > > "Now, lady, what are fabrications?" > > "These three fabrications, friend Visakha: bodily fabrications, > verbal fabrications, & mental fabrications." > > Majjhima Nikaya 44, Cula-vedalla Sutta > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/majjhima/mn044.html > > And in Cula-vedalla Sutta, it is stated that in-&-out breaths are > bodily fabrications. > > Jon, are fabrications inconstant, dukkha, not self? Yes, it is said by the Buddha that all sankhara's are anicca, dukkha and anatta. > Are bodily fabrications inconstant, dukkha, not self? In the context of dependent origination, yes; in the context of cessation, 'kaaya-sankhara' does not fall within the ambit of the Buddha's atatement that 'All sankhara are annica, dukkha and anatta' > Are in-&-out breaths inconstant, dukkha, not self? Same answer as for the second part of my answer to the previous question Jon 33478 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sat May 29, 2004 4:36pm Subject: Formal meditation IS NOT mandatory for attainment of Liberation Dear Group, For those, like me, who have been wondering at the modern day disageements over the place of formal meditation within Buddhism, this may provide some further food for thought: The Anguttara Nikaya 5.3.26 gives the five occasions when Liberation is attained: "Bhikkhus, these five are the sphere of the releases, in which spheres when the bhikkhu dwells diligent to dispel, either the not released mind is released, or the unexhausted desires get exhausted or the noble end of unpleasantness not yet attained is attained. What five?" 1.LISTENING TO THE DHAMMA "Here, bhikkhus, the Teacher or else a certain eminent co-associate in the holy life, teaches the bhikkhu. Then he gradually understands the meanings and experiences the Teaching. When understanding the meanings and experiencing the Teaching delight arises, to the delighted joy arises Of one with a joyful mind the body appeases. The appeased body experiences pleasa ntness. The mind of one who experiences pleasantness comes to one point. Bhikkhus, this is the first of the five releases, in which spheres when the bhikkhu dwells diligent to dispel, either the not released mind is released, or the unexhausted desires get exhausted or the noble end of unpleasantness not yet attained is attained". 2. TEACHING THE DHAMMA "Again, bhikkhus, neither the Teacher nor an eminent co-associate in the holy life teaches. Yet the bhikkhu preaches others in detail the Teaching that he had heard and mastered When he preaches others in detail the Teaching that he had heard and mastered he realizes the meaning and experiences the Teaching and delight arises, to the delighted joy arises Of one with a joyful mind the body appeases. The appeased body experiences pleasantness. The mind of one who experiences pleasantness comes to one point. Bhikkhus, this is the second of the five releases, in which spheres when the bhikkhu dwells diligent to dispel, either the not released mind is released, or the unexhausted desires get exhausted or the noble end of unpleasantness not yet attained is attained." 3. REPEATING THE DHAMMA "Again, bhikkhus, neither the Teacher nor an eminent co-associate in the holy life teaches him. He does not preach others in detail the Teaching that he had heard and mastered Yet he recites in detail, the Teaching that he had heard and mastered and realizing the meanings and experiencin g the Teaching delight arises, to the delighted joy arises Of one with a joyful mind the body appeases. The appeased body experiences pleasantness. The mind of one who experiences pleasantness comes to one point. Bhikkhus, this is the third of the five releases, in which sphere when the bhikkhu dwells diligent to dispel, either the not released mind is released, or the unexhausted desires get exhausted or the noble end of unpleasantness not yet attained is attained." 4. REFLECTING ON THE DHAMMA "Again, bhikkhus, neither the Teacher nor an eminent co-associate in the holy life teaches him. He does not preach others in detail the Teaching that he had heard and mastered, nor does he recite in detail, the Teaching that he had heard and mastered. Yet he thinks and discursively thinks about the Teaching that he had heard and mastered and the mind touches a point and delight arises. To the delighted joy arises Of one with a joyful mind the body appeases. The appeased body experiences pleasantness. The mind of one who experiences pleasantness comes to one point. Bhikkhus, this is the fourth of the five releases, in which sphere when the bhikkhu dwells diligent to dispel, either the not released mind is released, or the unexhausted desires get exhausted or the noble end of unpleasantness not yet attained is attained." 5. SOME CONCENTRATION SIGN (SAMADHI NIMITTA) IS RIGHTLY REFLECTED UPON AND UNDERSTOOD. "Again, bhikkhus, neither the Teacher nor an eminent co-associate in the holy life teaches him. He does not preach others in detail the Teaching that he had heard and mastered, nor does he recite in detail, the Teaching that he had heard and mastered. He does not think and discursively think about the Teaching that he had heard and mastered and the mind does not touch a point. Yet a certain meditation object well grasped and well established is penetratingly seen with wisdom and delight arises. To the delighted joy arises Of one with a joyful mind the body appeases. The appeased body experiences pleasantness. The mind of one who experiences pleasantness comes to one point. Bhikkhus, this is the fifth of the releases, in which sphere when the bhikkhu dwells diligent to dispel, either the not released mind is released, or the unexhausted desires get exhausted or the noble end of unpleasantness not yet attained is attained. Bhikkhus, these five are the releases, in which spheres when the bhikkhu dwells diligent to dispel, either the not released mind is released, or the unexhausted desires get exhausted or the noble end of unpleasantness not yet attained is attained." http://www.metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/4Anguttara- Nikaya/Anguttara3/5-pancakanipata/003-pancangikavaggo-e.htm OR TRY, http://tinyurl.com/2dwt7 And - of these five occasions, it is vital to note that ONLY THE LAST ONE possibly refers to formal meditation. This indicates that Understanding the Dhamma is of paramount importance for liberation. Comments? metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- 33479 From: Date: Sat May 29, 2004 1:33pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Formal meditation IS NOT mandatory for attainment of Liberation Hi Christine I agree that understanding the Dhamma is paramount, however, there is an extreme emphasis in the suttas of the Buddha teaching about the importance of meditation (jhanas). I think saying that one can attain liberation without much or any formal meditation is akin to saying that one can play professional football without working out. Maybe there might be an occasional individual that can do it, but most would need to workout to be capable of playing at a professional level. I think similarly, one would need consistent contemplation or "formal" meditation to elevate the minds ability to comprehend the Dhamma to the level necessary to attain liberation. TG In a message dated 5/29/2004 5:19:39 PM Pacific Standard Time, cforsyth@v... writes: Dear Group, For those, like me, who have been wondering at the modern day disageements over the place of formal meditation within Buddhism, this may provide some further food for thought: The Anguttara Nikaya 5.3.26 gives the five occasions when Liberation is attained: "Bhikkhus, these five are the sphere of the releases, in which spheres when the bhikkhu dwells diligent to dispel, either the not released mind is released, or the unexhausted desires get exhausted or the noble end of unpleasantness not yet attained is attained. What five?" 1.LISTENING TO THE DHAMMA "Here, bhikkhus, the Teacher or else a certain eminent co-associate in the holy life, teaches the bhikkhu. Then he gradually understands the meanings and experiences the Teaching. When understanding the meanings and experiencing the Teaching delight arises, to the delighted joy arises Of one with a joyful mind the body appeases. The appeased body experiences pleasa ntness. The mind of one who experiences pleasantness comes to one point. Bhikkhus, this is the first of the five releases, in which spheres when the bhikkhu dwells diligent to dispel, either the not released mind is released, or the unexhausted desires get exhausted or the noble end of unpleasantness not yet attained is attained". 2. TEACHING THE DHAMMA "Again, bhikkhus, neither the Teacher nor an eminent co-associate in the holy life teaches. Yet the bhikkhu preaches others in detail the Teaching that he had heard and mastered When he preaches others in detail the Teaching that he had heard and mastered he realizes the meaning and experiences the Teaching and delight arises, to the delighted joy arises Of one with a joyful mind the body appeases. The appeased body experiences pleasantness. The mind of one who experiences pleasantness comes to one point. Bhikkhus, this is the second of the five releases, in which spheres when the bhikkhu dwells diligent to dispel, either the not released mind is released, or the unexhausted desires get exhausted or the noble end of unpleasantness not yet attained is attained." 3. REPEATING THE DHAMMA "Again, bhikkhus, neither the Teacher nor an eminent co-associate in the holy life teaches him. He does not preach others in detail the Teaching that he had heard and mastered Yet he recites in detail, the Teaching that he had heard and mastered and realizing the meanings and experiencin g the Teaching delight arises, to the delighted joy arises Of one with a joyful mind the body appeases. The appeased body experiences pleasantness. The mind of one who experiences pleasantness comes to one point. Bhikkhus, this is the third of the five releases, in which sphere when the bhikkhu dwells diligent to dispel, either the not released mind is released, or the unexhausted desires get exhausted or the noble end of unpleasantness not yet attained is attained." 4. REFLECTING ON THE DHAMMA "Again, bhikkhus, neither the Teacher nor an eminent co-associate in the holy life teaches him. He does not preach others in detail the Teaching that he had heard and mastered, nor does he recite in detail, the Teaching that he had heard and mastered. Yet he thinks and discursively thinks about the Teaching that he had heard and mastered and the mind touches a point and delight arises. To the delighted joy arises Of one with a joyful mind the body appeases. The appeased body experiences pleasantness. The mind of one who experiences pleasantness comes to one point. Bhikkhus, this is the fourth of the five releases, in which sphere when the bhikkhu dwells diligent to dispel, either the not released mind is released, or the unexhausted desires get exhausted or the noble end of unpleasantness not yet attained is attained." 5. SOME CONCENTRATION SIGN (SAMADHI NIMITTA) IS RIGHTLY REFLECTED UPON AND UNDERSTOOD. "Again, bhikkhus, neither the Teacher nor an eminent co-associate in the holy life teaches him. He does not preach others in detail the Teaching that he had heard and mastered, nor does he recite in detail, the Teaching that he had heard and mastered. He does not think and discursively think about the Teaching that he had heard and mastered and the mind does not touch a point. Yet a certain meditation object well grasped and well established is penetratingly seen with wisdom and delight arises. To the delighted joy arises Of one with a joyful mind the body appeases. The appeased body experiences pleasantness. The mind of one who experiences pleasantness comes to one point. Bhikkhus, this is the fifth of the releases, in which sphere when the bhikkhu dwells diligent to dispel, either the not released mind is released, or the unexhausted desires get exhausted or the noble end of unpleasantness not yet attained is attained. Bhikkhus, these five are the releases, in which spheres when the bhikkhu dwells diligent to dispel, either the not released mind is released, or the unexhausted desires get exhausted or the noble end of unpleasantness not yet attained is attained." http://www.metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/4Anguttara- Nikaya/Anguttara3/5-pancakanipata/003-pancangikavaggo-e.htm OR TRY, http://tinyurl.com/2dwt7 And - of these five occasions, it is vital to note that ONLY THE LAST ONE possibly refers to formal meditation. This indicates that Understanding the Dhamma is of paramount importance for liberation. Comments? metta and peace, Christine 33480 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sat May 29, 2004 6:02pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Formal meditation IS NOT mandatory for attainment of Liberation Hello TG, all, It seems quite clear that formal meditation is just one of five ways - the other four ways (in total, the majority) relate to listening to, repeating, teaching and reflecting upon the Dhamma. The fifth is not stated to be the 'icing on the cake', an indispensable final step, something that occurs after a little preliminary involvement with others. The sutta quoted seems to be quite clear in indicating there are five ways (not one) for attainment to occur. Is it saying something other than what it seems to be stating bluntly? I see no hidden meaning. metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, TGrand458@a... wrote: > Hi Christine > > I agree that understanding the Dhamma is paramount, however, there is an > extreme emphasis in the suttas of the Buddha teaching about the importance of > meditation (jhanas). > > I think saying that one can attain liberation without much or any formal > meditation is akin to saying that one can play professional football without > working out. Maybe there might be an occasional individual that can do it, but > most would need to workout to be capable of playing at a professional level. I > think similarly, one would need consistent contemplation or "formal" meditation > to elevate the minds ability to comprehend the Dhamma to the level necessary > to attain liberation. > > TG > > > > In a message dated 5/29/2004 5:19:39 PM Pacific Standard Time, > cforsyth@v... writes: > Dear Group, > > For those, like me, who have been wondering at the modern day > disageements over the place of formal meditation within Buddhism, > this may provide some further food for thought: > > The Anguttara Nikaya 5.3.26 gives the five occasions when Liberation > is attained: > > "Bhikkhus, these five are the sphere of the releases, in which > spheres when the bhikkhu dwells diligent to dispel, either the not > released mind is released, or the unexhausted desires get exhausted > or > the noble end of unpleasantness not yet attained is attained. What > five?" > > 1.LISTENING TO THE DHAMMA > "Here, bhikkhus, the Teacher or else a certain eminent > co-associate in the holy life, teaches the bhikkhu. Then he gradually > understands the meanings and experiences the Teaching. When > understanding the meanings and experiencing the Teaching delight > arises, to the delighted joy arises Of one with a joyful mind the > body > appeases. The appeased body experiences pleasa ntness. The mind of > one > who experiences pleasantness comes to one point. Bhikkhus, this is > the > first of the five releases, in which spheres when the bhikkhu dwells > diligent to dispel, either the not released mind is released, or the > unexhausted desires get exhausted or the noble end of unpleasantness > not yet attained is attained". > > 2. TEACHING THE DHAMMA > "Again, bhikkhus, neither the Teacher nor an eminent co-associate in > the holy life teaches. Yet the bhikkhu preaches others in detail the > Teaching that he had heard and mastered When he preaches others in > detail the Teaching that he had heard and mastered he realizes the > meaning and experiences the Teaching and delight arises, to the > delighted joy arises Of one with a joyful mind the body appeases. The > appeased body experiences pleasantness. The mind of one who > experiences pleasantness comes to one point. Bhikkhus, this is the > second of the five releases, in which spheres when the bhikkhu dwells > diligent to dispel, either the not released mind is released, or the > unexhausted desires get exhausted or the noble end of unpleasantness > not yet attained is attained." > > 3. REPEATING THE DHAMMA > "Again, bhikkhus, neither the Teacher nor an eminent co-associate in > the holy life teaches him. He does not preach others in detail the > Teaching that he had heard and mastered > > Yet he recites in detail, the Teaching that he had heard and mastered > and realizing the meanings and experiencin g the Teaching delight > arises, to the delighted joy arises Of one with a joyful mind the > body > appeases. The appeased body experiences pleasantness. The mind of one > who experiences pleasantness comes to one point. Bhikkhus, this is > the > third of the five releases, in which sphere when the bhikkhu dwells > diligent to dispel, either the not released mind is released, or the > unexhausted desires get exhausted or the noble end of unpleasantness > not yet attained is attained." > > 4. REFLECTING ON THE DHAMMA > "Again, bhikkhus, neither the Teacher nor an eminent co-associate in > the holy life teaches him. He does not preach others in detail the > Teaching that he had heard and mastered, > nor does he recite in detail, the Teaching that he had heard and > mastered. Yet he thinks and discursively thinks about the Teaching > that he had heard and mastered and the mind touches a point and > delight arises. To the delighted joy arises Of one with a joyful mind > the body appeases. The appeased body experiences pleasantness. The > mind of one who experiences pleasantness comes to one point. > Bhikkhus, > this is the fourth of the five releases, in which sphere when the > bhikkhu dwells diligent to dispel, either the not released mind is > released, or the unexhausted desires get exhausted or the noble end > of > unpleasantness not yet attained is attained." > > 5. SOME CONCENTRATION SIGN (SAMADHI NIMITTA) IS RIGHTLY REFLECTED > UPON AND UNDERSTOOD. > "Again, bhikkhus, neither the Teacher nor an eminent co-associate in > the holy life teaches him. He does not preach others in detail the > Teaching that he had heard and mastered, > nor does he recite in detail, the Teaching that he had heard and > mastered. He does not think and discursively think about the Teaching > that he had heard and mastered and the mind does not touch a point. > Yet a certain meditation object well grasped and well established is > penetratingly seen with wisdom and delight arises. To the delighted > joy arises Of one with a joyful mind the body appeases. The appeased > body experiences pleasantness. The mind of one who experiences > pleasantness comes to one point. Bhikkhus, this is the fifth of the > releases, in which sphere when the bhikkhu dwells diligent to dispel, > either the not released mind is released, or the unexhausted desires > get exhausted or the noble end of unpleasantness not yet attained is > attained. > > Bhikkhus, these five are the releases, in which spheres when the > bhikkhu dwells diligent to dispel, either the not released mind is > released, or the unexhausted desires get exhausted or the noble end > of > unpleasantness not yet attained is attained." > http://www.metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/4Anguttara- > Nikaya/Anguttara3/5-pancakanipata/003-pancangikavaggo-e.htm > OR TRY, > http://tinyurl.com/2dwt7 > > And - of these five occasions, it is vital to note that ONLY THE > LAST ONE possibly refers to formal meditation. This indicates that > Understanding the Dhamma is of paramount importance for liberation. > > Comments? > > metta and peace, > Christine > 33481 From: Date: Sat May 29, 2004 8:35pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vedana Rob: "...This leaves me with the question as to why one set of conditions would work with dosa-mula and moha-mula cittas whereas another set of conditions would work with lobha-mula cittas." Hi Rob, I"m trying to think of an example of lobha-mula citta with neutral feeling. Any ideas? Maybe there is a different set of conditions just because there are two possible feelings, neutral and pleasant, and which one is applicable is dependent on one's accumulations but it couldn't be unpleasant feeling so there would also have to be an unchangable conditioning factor as well. Natural decisive support condition isn't going to always produce the same state. It changes as our accumulations change. But no matter how it changes it won't produce unpleasant feeling with lobha-mula citta. Perhaps natural decisive support could be added to the other conditions you gave. What would you say is the main conditioning factor between upadana and dukkha? Larry ----------------------- Rob: "Hi All, We can probably say that unpleasant mental feeling in dosa-mula cittas arises through: - Root condition - Conascence condition - Mutuality condition - Support condition - Association condition - Presence condition - Nondisappearance condition We could probably say that neutral mental feeling arises in moha-mula cittas through the same conditions. There can be either pleasant mental feeling or neutral mental feeling with lobha-mula cittas. It seems to me that the deciding factor as to which type of feeling arises would have to be natural decisive support condition. It does not seem right to me that the intrinsic quality (anittha / ittha / ati-ittha) of the object would play a role. This leaves me with the question as to why one set of conditions would work with dosa-mula and moha-mula cittas whereas another set of conditions would work with lobha-mula cittas. Does anybody have any ideas? Metta, Rob M :-)" 33482 From: Date: Sat May 29, 2004 9:03pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Kamma Rob: "It is interesting to note that: - Visible object, the object of eye sense, is a kamma-born rupa - Odour, the object of nose sense, is a kamma-born rupa - Flavour, the object of tongue sense, is a kamma-born rupa - Earth / fire / wind, the object of body sense, are kamma-born rupas However, sound, the object of ear sense, is NOT a kamma-born rupa. Why is this?" Hi Rob, Kamma born matter is a group of living matter. The eye-decade, for example, includes taste because we can taste an eye. The temperature produced sound nonad, also tastable, is not living matter. The consciousness produced vocal intimation decade and tridecade with lightness triad are also tastable but not living organs. As to whether a brick falling on my head is kamma result, maybe we have to say the brick, the falling, and my head are all consciousness. Larry 33483 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat May 29, 2004 11:27pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: 'Meaning fully drawn out' vs. 'meaning to be inferred' Victor I agree that the Madhupindika Sutta (Majjhima Nikaya 18) is an example of a sutta whose meaning needs to be inferred. However, my question was really directed to how one is to recognise the not-so-obvious cases (i'm not sure if your answer addresses this). As I mentioned in my earlier post, there are many terms used in the suttas that can only be understood by reference to other suttas or, in some cases, to sources outside the sutta pitaka altogether. Consider the following terms from other threads under discussion at the moment: 1. In the Anapanasati Sutta there are numerous references to 'mindfulness of in-&-out breathing', obviously a key term for understanding this sutta. I know of no explanation of the meaning of this term within any sutta -- if you do, I'd be interested to know the passage. 2. In some suttas the Four Noble Truths are given as a bare statement without any explanation, for example, <<'This is suffering,' ... 'This is the origin of suffering,' ... 'This is the cessation of suffering,' ... 'This is the road leading to the cessation of suffering,'>> (see Satipatthana Sutta, The Way of Mindfulness translation, below for an example). In such cases the meaning needs to be inferred from other parts of the Tipitaka, since the statement as it stands does not convey the detail about birth etc as suffering (in the first Noble Truth) or the Noble Eightfold Path as the way leading to the cessation of suffering (in the fourth Noble Truth). 3. In many suttas where 'atta'/'anatta' is mentioned, there is no explanation of the meaning of that expression. One needs to go to other parts of the tipitaka (such as the Anatta-lakkhana Sutta) for an explanation. It seems to me that where there is no sufficient description of a term within the sutta itself, the sutta is to that extent one 'whose meaning needs to be inferred'. Jon >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "Here, O bhikkhus, a bhikkhu understands: 'This is suffering,' according to reality; he understands: 'This is the origin of suffering,' according to reality; he understands: 'This is the cessation of suffering,' according to reality; and he understands: 'This is the road leading to the cessation of suffering,' according to realty. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/misc/wayof.html >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> --- yu_zhonghao wrote: > Hi Jon and all > > Regarding what you said: > > "I'm wondering how you would view the difference between a > sutta 'whose meaning needs to be inferred' and a sutta 'whose > meaning has already been fully drawn out', that is to say, how we > can know one from the other." > > Let me give an example of what the Buddha said whose meaning needed > to be inferred. > > Majjhima Nikaya 18 > Madhupindika Sutta > The Ball of Honey ... > Please also check how Ven. Maha Kaccana replied to the monks who > asked him to analyze the meaning of what the Buddha said and how he > analyze it. > > > Metta, > Victor 33484 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat May 29, 2004 11:45pm Subject: Re: [dsg] 'Meaning fully drawn out' , Co. Nina Many thanks for this commentary material. As usual, it is extremely useful. Regarding your earlier remarks about the Abhidhamma and vipassana (which you also touch on in this post), I share the view that they are to be implied in every sutta. The Abhidhamma is to be implied because it is the key to the terms used in the suttas, the primer that is our guide to the dhammas that are spoken of there. Vipassana is to be implied because the goal of the teachings is liberation/ enlightenment, for which vipassana is the only path, and all the teachings are given to that end. Bearing this in mind allows us to have a better understanding of the texts. Thanks for the reminder. Jon --- nina van gorkom wrote: > Hi Jon, Victor, Hasituppada, ... I shall now render part of the Co I have in Thai. First an example of someone who says that the sutta should be explained further: the Buddha speaks to the bhikkhus about this one person, these two, three, four persons, etc. The Co states: Another example in the Commentary about a foolish person. The three characteristics of impermanence, dukkha and anatta have been explained by the Buddha: The foolish person thinks that this sutta still has to be explained further and gives the interpretation that all conditioned realities are permanent, all conditioned realities are happiness, sukkha, all dhammas are self, atta.> This is an example of a foolish person who thinks that the sutta which has already been further explained should still be further explained. This commentary reminds me to read the suttas very carefully, and it explains that I need the Abhidhamma in order to understand the deep meaning of there being no person, of anatta. It reminds me also that I need to apply what the Abhidhamma teaches by vipassana. The three characteristics are characteristics of ultimate realities, and thus these should be further investigated by vipassana. This is how I feel personally about it. 33485 From: buddhatrue Date: Sun May 30, 2004 0:00am Subject: [dsg] Conditioned? Concentration? ( was Re: I have a wonderful wife --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, James - > > In a message dated 5/29/04 1:00:33 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > buddhatrue@y... writes: > > > I'm afraid I must lack sufficient brain power to understand what you > > are saying here. ;-)) Maybe if you re-explained in more simple > > terms I could understand better and respond. > > > ================== > I apologize for not being clearer. I think the bottom-line on what I > was saying could be formulated as follows: I see one-pointedness as a basic > mental function, I interpret it to be the inclination (a sankhara) to stick with > or repeat the current object ot awareness (or whatever variation of it arises) > in subsequent mindstates, and I see it as arising as an aspect of a > mindstate. The stronger that inclination is, the more frequently awareness takes "the > same" object, and the less frequently attention diverts to other objects as > mindstates change. The one-pointedness formation is, as I see it, is the > paramattha dhamma that is the basis for conventional concentration. > Conventional concentration, per force, is seen as occuring across a > span of mindstates, by its very definition - sticking with "the same" object for > a period of time even as other factors may change, and it wouldn't make sense > to attempt to apply the notion within a single mindstate. But that is not the > case for the cetasika of one-pointedness. It is a paramattha dhamma, a > fabricator of sorts which influences the content of consciousness, and it always > occurs within a mindstate. I also see other mental factors, for example > effort/energy/viriya, mindfulness, and clarity (clear comprehension) as serving to > support the function of one-pointedness, which in turn is supportive of the > others. > > With metta, > Howard Friend Howard, Thank you for your new explanation. I guess this depends on what you consider the nature of cittas to be. Personally, I do believe in cittas but I don't believe that they last only one billionth of a second, as has been proposed in this group previously, and I don't think that they all last the same duration. Regarding the object of each citta, I believe that that is determined by the arising of each particular rupa and not any `inclination' or personal choice...but each citta will have an influence on each subsequent citta. Really, I think we are starting to get into an area of theory that is outside what the Buddha taught. In other words, your guess is as good as mine! ;-)) Metta, James 33486 From: jonoabb Date: Sun May 30, 2004 0:08am Subject: Re: Dhamma Thread ( 016 ) Htoo Thanks for some very informative posts. I'm wondering if you could just clarify the references to 'kusala' and 'akusala' in the following: > If avajjana citta is > akusala then pancavinnana citta is also akusala and if kusala then > kusala. Thanks. Jon --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" wrote: > Dear Dhamma Friends, > > Vithi citta series starts with avajjana citta which is a > contemplating mind which contemplates on arammana or object. Due to > its contemplation it knows that the object comes through one of 5 > sense door but the citta immediately falls away. > > Next arises pancavinnana citta. If the object is rupa, cakkhuvinnana > citta arise, if sadda or sound sotavinnana citta, if gandha or smell > ghanavinnana citta, if rasa or taste jivhavinana citta, and if > photthabba or touch kayavinnana citta arises. If avajjana citta is > akusala then pancavinnana citta is also akusala and if kusala then > kusala. 33487 From: Andrew Date: Sun May 30, 2004 0:15am Subject: [dsg] Re: concentration and Panna Hi Nina and Howard Enjoying your discussion but would like to interrupt it with a riddle. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Nina - > > In a message dated 5/29/04 2:43:46 AM Eastern Daylight Time, nilo@e... > writes: > > > I think that the word concentration may mislead people. > > with regard to vipassana: to me it seems very strange that you have to > > concentrate first and then wisdom will arise. As I see it, they are > > together, and concentration grows as wisdom grows, and at the moment of > > lokuttara citta, samadhi has the strength of jhana, by conditions. In other > > suttas we read: right understanding comes first, in other words, takes the > > lead. > > > ========================= H: They are mutually supportive, as in the spiral analogy. But there are > numerous suttas that emphasize the role of concentration as predecessor to > insight, including the ones I recently quoted from the Anguttara Nikaya. A: Howard, do you see the workings of consciousness ( or namarupa, if you like) as a soup and analysing it being akin to doing the taste test eg "this is cumin", "this is ginger", "this is garlic"? If so, how does what I call "sequentialism" come into the picture eg "first you develop your concentration then something else will develop followed by something else again ..." Can we predict conditionality to that extent? The analysis is a mere intellectual exercise, is it not, to gain some level of understanding? To truly know how things are is something for direct experience which, I suspect, has no place for sequential dissection. Do you see any conflict/contradiction between "mutually supportive" and "predecessor/successor"? Best wishes Andrew 33488 From: Andrew Date: Sun May 30, 2004 0:33am Subject: Re: [dsg] Formal meditation IS NOT mandatory for attainment of Liberation Hi TG (and Christine) Good to see you still around. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, TGrand458@a... wrote: > > I think saying that one can attain liberation without much or any formal > meditation is akin to saying that one can play professional football without > working out. Maybe there might be an occasional individual that can do it, but > most would need to workout to be capable of playing at a professional level. I > think similarly, one would need consistent contemplation or "formal" meditation > to elevate the minds ability to comprehend the Dhamma to the level necessary > to attain liberation. A: TG, my old tennis coach used to say that he played his best tennis when he was drunk! "Working out leads to better football" is an untested assumption that has firmly taken hold. If it were scientifically tested, we may all be surprised by the results. Who knows? After all, every medieval European peasant knew perfectly well that swallows dug themselves into the soil every late autumn and reappeared from the soil in spring. That's what everybody said and what seemed to be in all the books! History is full of pervasive myths. (-: With respect to the necessity for formal meditation, perhaps a myth has taken hold that we all have to be like the Buddha statue? That seems to be so if one puts any credence on the sutta Christine has kindly highlighted. I was introduced to Buddhism by a series of people who all had no doubt whatsoever that a Buddhist MUST sit in the lotus position and meditate just like the Buddha did. Sorry, but I now think they were wrong in taking that blanket approach. Best wishes Andrew 33489 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun May 30, 2004 0:43am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: concentration and Panna Hi Howard, O.K. Excellent. We do not have to call Abhidhamma Abhidhamma or Abhidhamma Pitaka. As long as we understand that there is a detailed analysis of dhammas and their relations. And, what is more: they are not in the book. They are here, now, in daily life, to be verified. Nina op 29-05-2004 16:12 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: > I would concur with this, but only so long as "Abhidhamma" was being > used in the generalized sense of "detailed analysis of dhammas and their > relations," and not in the sense of Abhidhamma Pitaka, because everything that > one > requires is available in the Sutta Pitaka and (for the monks) the Vinaya > Pitaka. 33490 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun May 30, 2004 0:43am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: processes of cittas Hi Rob M, Yes now you clarified what you meant. Thanks. Nina op 29-05-2004 09:31 schreef robmoult op rob.moult@j...: > > In my recent post on Paticcasamuppada by way of Patthana, I mentioned > the use of the terms "receiving", "investigating" and "registration" > in Vism XVII 231. > > I am not saying that Acariya Anuruddha invented these concepts; I > guess what I am saying is that it was Acariya Anuruddha who plucked > these concepts from relative obscurity and gave the "staring roles on > centre stage" in the Abhidhammatthasangaha. > 33491 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun May 30, 2004 0:43am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: concentration and Panna Hi Howard, op 29-05-2004 16:16 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: > Concentration is important even here. Calm supports concentration, > and concentration supports understanding. N: But it has to be right concentration, not wrong concentration accompanying desire. Who knows? Only panna knows. In vipassana there is momentary concentration, khanika samadhi. Not without panna. Right understanding comes first. But, of course, also concentration, sati, right thinking and the other factors are the helpers of panna. Certainly, they support panna. H: But there are numerous suttas that emphasize the role of concentration as predecessor to insight, including the ones I recently quoted from the Anguttara Nikaya. N: This is very complex and we would have to study each sutta. The one you quoted could refer to someone who was skilled in jhana and then used jhana as proximate cause for insight. I find these suttas difficult, I am inclined to think: concentration under what heading or according to what method of teaching. When I read: develop concentration, and that it leads to realizing the four noble Truths I am inclined to read this with vipassana panna implied. I can ask Sukin to bring it up in Bgk. H: One needn't *think* of concentration. In fact, doing so would be a distraction. One merely exerts energy in attending to something (of value), and supported by a degree of calm already in place and by increasing mindfulness, one-pointedness increases, which in turn supports further calm, attention, mindfulness, and "easy energy". N: The energy part is difficult for me to understand. There are the four right efforts, but these can only be accomplished by panna that knows kusala as kusala and akusala as akusala, and in insight: panna that knows them as conditioned namas. It is interesting you use energy, sati and concentration together. They are the section of the eightfold Path that is samadhi. (the others being sila, and wisdom). I read in the satipatthana sutta: atapi (ardent), sampajano (understanding), satima (mindful), and I like this. But it is not without understanding (sampajano). In the same way one could not develop just sati (knowing what one is doing) without panna. Just sati is useless. Factors of the eightfold Path are not factors *of the eightfold Path* if they are developed in isolation, without panna (see Jon's posts). Also people outside the sasana could do this. But the Buddha taught us the development of panna that leads to the end of the cycle. What does panna know at this moment, that is the question. Therefore, listening and intellectual understanding of the objects of satipatthana are indispensable. This in itself are conditions for the arising of the Path factors. As you say, no need to think of concentration, and evenso, no need to think of sati and effort. Through the Abhidhamma we learn that they are cetasikas, dhammas that arise because of their own conditions, but this has to sink in. One may learn about cetasikas, but does one really understand the meaning of their being anatta? When the Buddha says, apply energy: it is a condition not to be neglectful. We have to persevere, even though the development of panna is along time development. In order to explain what I said above, I need concrete examples from the practice just now. What does panna have to know? What are the objects just now? There is seeing already, hearing already. Why do I have to do anything, like increasing mindfulness or having energy? I should learn to know that hearing is different from sound, and that they appear one at a time. For me, that is enough. A slight feeling of uneasiness, what is it? No energy needed, it is there already. Or a loud sound just now. But gone immediately. Why try to increase mindfulness? It is panna that can grow. I understand people when they say: nothing is happening when I do not apply energy. But the following example can clarify that the growth of panna is conditioned. When we are born with two beautiful roots; non-attachment and non-aversion, but without panna, we can develop panna, but we shall not attain enlightenment in that life, no matter what we do. If we are born with three beautiful roots, thus, with panna, panna still has to be developed in that life, but it is possible to attain enlightenment. Thus, kamma conditions the capacities of people, from birth on. Nobody can change that. Nina. 33492 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun May 30, 2004 1:08am Subject: Re: [dsg] Kamma Rob M --- robmoult wrote: > Hi All, ... > Now imagine that an accident happens to me; a brick falls on my toe. > Is this my kamma? The brick is not kamma-born rupa. Whatever > imbalance caused the brick to fall was not caused by asynchronous > kamma condition (none of the conditioned factors can push a brick). I > suspect that the brick hitting my toe had nothing to do with kamma. > If this is true, how can one say that "what happens to me is due to > my kamma"? > > Any ideas? > > Metta, > Rob M :-) As I understand it, the law of kamma works so that if there was not the previous kamma ready to ripen, there would be no painful bodily feeling expereinced in the circumstance you describe. Past kamma exerts influence in a number of ways, but in terms of pleasant or painful bodily experiences, only where there is appropriate kamma ready to ripen will a specific sense-door object be experienced. What 'caused' the brick to fall is another story ;-)). Jon 33493 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun May 30, 2004 1:20am Subject: Re: [dsg] 'Birth is suffering, old age is suffering, death is suffering....' Howard --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Larry - > > In a message dated 5/28/04 10:04:56 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > LBIDD@w... > writes: > > > It occurred to me today that impermanence could also be seen as > amusing, > > even laughable, not a source of suffering at all. > ==================== > Exactly so. But what is impermanent is a source of suffering when clung > to. > > With metta, > Howard Dhammas as a 'source of suffering' is an aspect of the first Noble Truth, but not of dukkha as a characteristic of dhammas, I think. As far as I can make out, the fully enlightened being would continue to see dhammas as dukkha (and anicca and anatta), since he has fully understood the 3 characteristics, as well as having penetrated the four Noble Truths. Jon 33494 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun May 30, 2004 1:42am Subject: Re: [dsg] 'Birth is suffering, old age is suffering, death is suffering....' Victor Given your comments in another thread about the perceived contradiction between the Sammohavinodani and the suttas, I'm wondering if you also see a contradiction between the statement "The five aggregates, on their own, do not constitute suffering or stress" in the passage below and the frequent mention in the suttas that dhammas/the five aggregates are dukkha. Jon --- yu_zhonghao wrote: > Hi Larry, ... > [1] > The five aggregates, on their own, do not constitute suffering or > stress. They are stressful only when functioning as objects of > clinging/sustenance. This hybrid word -- clinging/sustenance -- is a > translation of the Pali term upadana. Upadana has a hybrid meaning > because it is used to cover two sides of a physical process > metaphorically applied to the mind: the act of clinging whereby a > fire takes sustenance from a piece of fuel, together with the > sustenance offered by the fuel. On the level of the mind, upadana > denotes both the act of clinging and the object clung to, which > together give sustenance to the process whereby mental pain arises. > In terms of this metaphor, pain is hot and unstable like fire, > whereas the mental act of clinging to the five aggregates is what > keeps the fire burning. These images are part of a larger complex of > imagery contained in the Pali discourses, likening the processes of > pain and its cessation to the physical processes of fire and its > extinguishing. An understanding of this imagery helps to give a > graphic, intuitive sense for the ways in which the Pali texts > analyze the problem of stress and pain. > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/modern/thanissaro/wings/3h2.html 33495 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sun May 30, 2004 2:19am Subject: Re: [dsg] Formal meditation IS NOT mandatory for attainment of Liberation Hello TG, Andrew, and all, Just adding a little more from RobK: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Triplegem/message/5118 I note that after posting the section of the Sutta which also appears at DN 33 (Walshe p. 497) in 'Five bases of deliverance', RobK goes on to say: "All of these five ways of attaining enlightenment come with samadhi and with panna (wisdom), but we might overlook the samadhi of the first four ways because it may not be as strong as that leading to jhana. But it is samadhi and it is supported by panna, wisdom. It is a long sutta that is popular for monks to chant. robertK" metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Andrew" wrote: > Hi TG (and Christine) > > Good to see you still around. > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, TGrand458@a... wrote: > > > I think saying that one can attain liberation without much or any > formal > > meditation is akin to saying that one can play professional > football without > > working out. Maybe there might be an occasional individual that > can do it, but > > most would need to workout to be capable of playing at a > professional level. I > > think similarly, one would need consistent contemplation > or "formal" meditation > > to elevate the minds ability to comprehend the Dhamma to the level > necessary > > to attain liberation. > > A: TG, my old tennis coach used to say that he played his best tennis > when he was drunk! "Working out leads to better football" is an > untested assumption that has firmly taken hold. If it were > scientifically tested, we may all be surprised by the results. Who > knows? After all, every medieval European peasant knew perfectly well > that swallows dug themselves into the soil every late autumn and > reappeared from the soil in spring. That's what everybody said and > what seemed to be in all the books! History is full of pervasive > myths. (-: > With respect to the necessity for formal meditation, perhaps a myth > has taken hold that we all have to be like the Buddha statue? That > seems to be so if one puts any credence on the sutta Christine has > kindly highlighted. I was introduced to Buddhism by a series of > people who all had no doubt whatsoever that a Buddhist MUST sit in > the lotus position and meditate just like the Buddha did. > Sorry, but I now think they were wrong in taking that blanket > approach. > > Best wishes > Andrew 33496 From: htootintnaing Date: Sun May 30, 2004 6:17am Subject: Re: Dhamma Thread ( 016 ) Dear Jon, Anantara paccaya works here. Anantara is a Pali word. It is made up of 'ana' and 'antara'. Ana means 'no' 'not' 'nil'. 'Antara' means interval, space, gap. Anantara means 'without interval. If one citta passes away, another citta arises without any spacing or interval or any antara. This is a supporting system of anantara paccaya. In that, kusala agrees with kusala, and akusala agrees with akusala dhamma. An example is here. When an 'ittharammana' or good object is seen or sensed then there will be all kusala related things. First vithi citta will be pancadvaravajjana citta which is kiriya citta. Next citta will be if ittha ruparammana then kusala cakkhu vinnana citta. Next arises kusala sampaticchana citta. Next arises kusala santirana citta. All these will be kusala vipaka citta. With Metta, Htoo Naing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > Htoo > > Thanks for some very informative posts. > > I'm wondering if you could just clarify the references to 'kusala' and 'akusala' in the > following: > > > If avajjana citta is > > akusala then pancavinnana citta is also akusala and if kusala then > > kusala. > > Thanks. > > Jon 33497 From: Philip Date: Sun May 30, 2004 6:18am Subject: Conditioned? Concentration? ( was Re: I have a wonderful wife Hi Ken, and all > Ph: > This is interesting. I'd never though of meditation being a > citta, a mind-moment. I don't think I've come across > such an idea in Nina's books, though it is probably expressed in > other words. > K: > Everything that is real, in the ultimate sense, exists in one mind > moment. Right mindfulness is a cetasika, sama-sati, but the moment > in which it exists is a moment of Path consciousness, Magga-citta. > Magga-citta could be called the ultimate meditation -- meditation on > Nibbana. Ph: I haven't been clear on this Nibbana business. ;) There is an experience of Nibbana at each stage of enlightnement, is that right? I have heard of Nibbana as an object of citta - does this only occur at each stage of enlightenment. I suppose it must. Otherwise it wouldn't be a reality that it an object of citta. Does Magga-citta refer to this experience of Nibbana at each stage of enlightenment? Does meditation on Nibbana necessarily mean experience of Nibbana? Now, I could go and find the answer in the chapter on Nibbana that I haven't read yet in ADL. But I know that asking here helps both those who are offered an opportunity to explain, and others who are reading in. K:>Mundane Path consciousness (mundane-magga-citta?) is a > lesser form of meditation -- meditation on a conditioned reality. > > And then, of course, there is jhana meditation. And there are > other meditations that are accompanied by tranquility (passaddhi), > but not necessarily by panna. These are, meditations on the Buddha, > on metta, on death and on loathsomeness. In reality, they are only > [kusala] cittas: none of them is a formal procedure that can be > ritualistically carried out. Ph: I see. Thanks. That's very nicely laid out. I won't comment any more on this topic because there seems to be a very hot thread on a similar topic underway now and enough is enough. I will read the other one - or will I? > > KH: > >The Buddha did not list it as one of the factors > for enlightenment. > > > > Ph: > Are you referring to the 7 factors, the bojjhanga? > > -------------- > > Tut tut! Have you been following all the threads on DSG or just the > ones you are involved in? :-) I shouldn't criticise: I am a man of > leisure (no job, no kids) and yet I still don't absorb all the > information on DSG. > I, along with Victor, Rob Ep, Jon and others, have been talking > about the factors for enlightenment (as distinct from the factors > *of* enlightenment). Ph: There is a phenomenon in mental development - I forget the Pali term - which refers to contact with the right understanding of others that is so intensely clear it washes away all memory of the contact. It is a kind of "blinded by the light" phenomenon. Sure this is what happened with the thread you are referring to. It was so brilliant that I have forgotten all about reading it. ;) haha. Yes, you've got me there. I don't read all the threads - don't read many of them, in fact. Just no time when there is so much self- absorbed babbling to be done! :) The fact that I didn't read that one despite having registered the title is that although I made my comments on meditation, I don't usually feel much desire to think hard about whether it is right practice or not. Perhaps I will someday. Whether meditation is right, or not right, it is so clear to me that it is cultivating satipatthana in daily life out in the world that is really interesting. It could be that meditation helps beginners to "warm up" to satipatthana, in the way I spoke of swimming the other day. Or not. K: > the factors for enlightenment (as distinct from the factors > *of* enlightenment). They are: association with the wise, hearing > the Dhamma, wise reflection on the Dhamma and practice in accordance > with the Dhamma. Ph: Thank you. This wise reflection on the Dhamma - I'll tell you, a cushion is a very nice place to do it, with a coffee first thing in the morning. I won't comment any more - I'll go read that thread and find out where/how other folks find "reflection". I can see the present moment in busy daily life is where we have the opportunities to examine realities, and this is "practice in accord with the Dhamma" but "reflection"....I will have to reflect on that one, and it requires me to sit back from the computer - I change my posture to reflect. Just a conditioned habit, I guess. I couldn't reflect on this while walking down a busy street, like the one on the cover of "Buddhism in Daily Life" (I love that cover) Can you all "reflect" on a busy street, or during a meeting, or when chatting with an aquaintance? All right. Shut up now, Phil. I will read that thread that I was blinded by earlier. :) > Ph: > So the concentration that rises as a citta accompanying other > cittas, > [KH: I think you meant to type, "as a cetasika accompanying other > cetasikas"] Ph: Thanks for the clarification. I wish I could say it were a typo! > universally, and the right concentration that is a path factor - are > they the same thing? I am not fretting about trying to figure this > out, yet, but I will continue to think about it. > ---------------------- K: > Yes, the cetasika, concentration (samadhi, ekagatta) always > performs the same functions, be it in a wholesome way or an in > unwholesome way. Ph: I see. K: > At a moment of supramundane Path consciousness, I think it is fair > to say it has additional, kilesa-destroying, functions. Ph: Kilesa-destroying functions! Why do we have to wait? I wanna do it now, like the "Kabi-killer" mold remover that I will be using during the rainy season, which starts tomorrow. Seriously - I suppose reflecting on how concentration performs the eradication of kilesa at supramundane moments would be futile. When it happens, one understand how it happens, and not before...right? Metta, Phil 33498 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun May 30, 2004 6:21am Subject: Re: [dsg] Conditioned? Concentration? ( was Re: I have a wonderful wife Howard (and James and Phil) I find much to agree with in your post, including this: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> As I see it, every mental function that operates does so within a single mindstate, though it may continue in subsequent ones. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and this: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> With regard to concentration, in particular, the concentration that consists of sticking pretty much with the same content (arammana) for a lengthy period, with little swapping out to other objects is concentration in the conventional sense. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and this: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I take that sort of "concentration" to be a mind-construct/pa~n~natti (Is the singular 'pa~n~natto'?), and as being our way of grasping a kind of relation among mindstates, ... >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and this, but with qualification: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ... and it has as its basis the paramattha dhamma of one-pointedness which I interpret to mean the tendency (a sankhara) for the content of a mindstate to repeat. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the qualification being that one-pointedness (ekaggata) is not the only relevant factor here. According to the Abhidhammattha-Sangaha (see extract from CMA below), there are in fact 7 mental factors (cetasikas) that have a role. They are called 'jhaana' factors, but they apply to the pre-jhana stages as well. They are the factors that conduce to the same object being taken repeatedly by consciousness. The interesting thing is that all but one of them are, like one-pointedness/ekaggata, mental factors that may arise with either kusala or akusala citta. That exception is a mental factor that arises with akusala citta only. This I think highlights the fact that there is nothing *necessarily* kusala about repeated attention to the same object (conventional concentration). As we've noted before, the hallmark of samatha is not concentration but the kusala of passadhi (tranquillity). There is such a state as akusala jhaana. The 7 factors of concentration and their ethical quality are: (1) initial application (vitakka), A/B (2) sustained application (vicaara), A/B (3) zest (piiti); A/B (4) one-pointedness (ekaggata); A/B (5) joy (somanassa); A/B (6) displeasure (domanassa); B (7) equanimity (upekkha); A/B where 'A/B' = may arise with either kusala citta or akusala citta (or kiriya citta), and 'B' = arises with akusala citta only. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> In other words, James, I have been infected to some extent by the Abhidhammic virus! ;-)) >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Oh oh, now there's no saving you, Howard ;-)) Jon CMA Chapter VII - Compendium of Categories Compendium of Mixed Categories # 16 Jhaana Factors The seven jhaana factors: (1) initial application, (2) sustained application, (3) zest, (4) one-pointedness, (5) joy, (6) displeasure, (7) equanimity. Guide to #16 The word 'jhaana' is not used here in the sense of meditative absorption, but in the broader sense of close contemplation (upanijjhaayana) of an object. Therefore the states listed here are considered jhaana factors even when they occur outside a meditative framework. These seven cetasikas are called jhaana factors because they enable the mind to closely contemplate its object. Of them, displeasure is exclusively unwholesome and occurs only in the two cittas connected with aversion. The other six can be wholesome, unwholesome, or indeterminate, depending on the citta in which they occur. --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, James (and Phil) - ... ============================== I both agree with you and disagree with you on this one, James. ... As I see it, every mental function that operates does so within a single mindstate, though it may continue in subsequent ones. I understand a mindstate to end and a new one to begin whenever there is any change in the make-up of experience consisting in some factor ceasing, or another commencing, or both. ... But all operations that occur at all are based within individual mindstates. With regard to concentration, in particular, the concentration that consists of sticking pretty much with the same content (arammana) for a lengthy period, with little swapping out to other objects is concentration in the conventional sense. I take that sort of "concentration" to be a mind-construct/pa~n~natti (Is the singular 'pa~n~natto'?), and as being our way of grasping a kind of relation among mindstates, and it has as its basis the paramattha dhamma of one-pointedness which I interpret to mean the tendency (a sankhara) for the content of a mindstate to repeat. In other words, James, I have been infected to some extent by the Abhidhammic virus! ;-)) With metta, Howard 33499 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun May 30, 2004 6:27am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Cetana (volition, intention)is controllable? (was kusala, akusala, ignorance, wrong view, samatha,samadhi, dogmas, drugs and ex-Christian aunts! Phil --- Philip wrote: > > Hi Mike, Jon and all > > Fiddling around in the Useful Posts (wondering what Cetana is all > about) came across this exchange between Mike and Jon from July of > 2001 (#7214). ... > > > Bhumija Sutta > > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/majjhima/mn126.html > > > Jon : > An interesting passage. Any idea what the reference > to 'making a wish' > > might be referring to? I haven't quite figured this one out yet. > > > > Jon > > > Ph: A few years down the road any further insight on the meaning > of "wish?" Yes, I believe someone cleared this point up a short time later. It is just as you say below: whatever conditions are developed, the appropriate result will follow regardless of any wish that may be held regarding the outcome. > For me this is saying that it doesn't matter whether we set > intentions or not -"results" will arise - or not arise- in a > conditioned way. Which may be something to do with Cetana. I gather > Cetana is not intention in the conventional understanding of the word > but a universal cetasika that arises with every citta in a condioned > way. I have only begun to learn about it what it is exactly. Cetana is, as you say, one of the 'universal' cetasikas. It is the 'kamma' of kamma and vipaka, since deeds are essentially the manifestation of their accompanying intention. Intention can be used in a number of everyday senses, but in perhaps the most commonly meant it is nothing more than a kind of thinking. In other conventional senses (legal, philosophical, etc) it may also connote various wholesome or unwholesome states of mind. > And what does "obtaining results" mean exactly? Eradication of > defilements, I guess. Otherwise "obtaining results" sounds so > materialistic. Moments of satipatthana/insight (development of the path), perhaps? Thanks for the interest, Phil. Jon > --- "m. nease" wrote: > Just thought I'd add this to > > the thread: > > > > > > "But as for any priests or contemplatives endowed with > > > right view, right resolve, right speech, right action, > > > right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, & > > > right concentration: If they follow the holy life even > > > when having made a wish, they are capable of obtaining > > > results. If they follow the holy life even when having > > > made no wish, they are capable of obtaining results. > > > If they follow the holy life even when both having > > > made a wish and having made no wish, they are capable > > > of obtaining results. If they follow the holy life > > > even when neither having made a wish nor having made > > > no wish, they are capable of obtaining results. Why is > > > that? Because it is an appropriate way of obtaining > > > results. > > > 33500 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun May 30, 2004 6:29am Subject: Re: [dsg] 'Birth is suffering, old age is suffering, death is suffering....' Larry --- LBIDD@w... wrote: > Hi Sarah, > > Dukkha has a cause. Does impermanence and anatta have a cause? > > Larry I don’t have anything to say that hasn't already been said by Nina and others, but I'll say it anyway ;-)) When it is said that all conditioned dhammas are anicca/dukkha/anatta, this describes certain characteristics (attributes) of conditioned dhammas. Here there is no question of a cause. It is just the way conditioned dhammas are, by nature, in fact by virtue of being conditioned. In the statement of the Four Noble Truths, dukkha refers to the suffering associated with being in samsara. Dukkha in this sense does have a cause, and that cause is tanha, because it is the craving for continued existence that keeps us traveling in the round of births and deaths. Of course, in an ultimate sense, the Truth of dukkha holds because dhammas are as they are (i.e., anicca/dukkha/anatta). The arahant who has not yet attained parinibbana has transcended certain aspects of 'dukkha as Truth', but 'dukkha as a characteristic of conditioned dhammas' is not susceptible to being transcended, except upon attaining parinibbana. Jon 33501 From: htootintnaing Date: Sun May 30, 2004 6:44am Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 024 ) Dear Dhama Friends, Citta always takes an object. 25 cittas take only kamma objects that is sight, sound, smell, taste, or touch and their related things. These cittas are 10 dvipancavinana cittas, 3 manodhatus that is pancadvaravajjana citta, 2 sampaticchana cittas, 8 mahavipaka cittas and 3 santirana cittas. These cittas never take other objects apart from kama object. They do have their limitations. For example 10 dvipancavinnana cittas always deal with 5 senses and they never take other object. Pancadvaravajjana citta just checks 5 sense door and it is just related to 5 senses. Sampaticchana also does the same and so does santirana. 8 mahavipaka cittas are bhavanaga cittas of kama sattas and they always just related to kama arammana. So all these 25 cittas are related to kama arammana. 12 akusala cittas and 4 nana vippayutta mahakusala cittas and 4 nana vippayutta mahakiriya cittas altogether 20 cittas can take any object with the exception of lokuttara dhamma that is 9 dhammas namely, sotapatti magga citta, satopatti phala citta, sakadagami magga citta, sakadagami phala citta, anagami magga citta, anagami phala citta, arahatta magga citta, arahatta phala citta and nibbana. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 33502 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun May 30, 2004 7:30am Subject: Perseverance in Dhamma, Ch 3, no 2 Perseverance in Dhamma, Ch 3, no 2 The Commentary to this Sutta, the ³Manorathapúraní², explains that arahatship can be attained immediately after seeing, no matter whether a desirable or undesirable object is seen. It explains that when a monk has seen visible object through the eyes, he begins to apply insight and that the attainment of arahatship can be said to arise consecutively after seeing. It states that it is the same in the case of hearing. Acharn Sujin said: ³People think that they cannot gain understanding of the reality appearing at this moment². Realities appear one at a time through one of the six doorways. If we believe that we can see and hear at the same time we shall not know that seeing and hearing are impermanent, dukkha and anattå. The characteristic of impermanence refers to the reality that appears now. She said: ³We may read the Tipitaka without any understanding of realities. We may read that all conditioned dhammas are dukkha, but we should know that these words represent reality.² We may think about the impermanence of mind and body, but that is not insight that realizes the impermanence of citta that arises and falls away each moment, nor is it the resolution of the compact of the body into elements that are arising and falling away. Paramattha dhammas, citta, cetasika and rúpa, have the characteristics of impermanence, dukkha and anattå and these can be directly known through the development of insight. This sutta reminds us to develop right understanding of seeing and hearing at this very moment. Seeing sees a desirable object or an undesirable object depending on the kamma that produces seeing. Seeing is vipåkacitta, the result of kamma. It does not matter whether visible object is desirable or undesirable, seeing falls away immediately. Seeing just sees and it does not know whether visible object is desirable or undesirable. It is of no use to find out whether the object is desirable or undesirable. We can learn that seeing is only a type of nåma and that it experiences visible object which is rúpa. When we understand that seeing is only a type of nåma, we begin to know the meaning of non-self. Seeing arises because kamma produces it, we cannot cause its arising or be the owner of it. It is only nåma, not ³my seeing². Seeing sees only visible object, not a person or a thing. Sati can be aware only of one nåma or rúpa at a time, but so long as we do not distinguish nåma from rúpa we are bound to take all realities for self. *** Nina. 33503 From: m. nease Date: Sun May 30, 2004 8:20am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Cetana (volition, intention)is controllable? (was kusala, akusala, ignorance, wrong view, samatha,samadhi, dogmas, drugs and ex-Christian aunts! Hi Jon and Phil, ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jonothan Abbott" To: Sent: Sunday, May 30, 2004 6:27 AM Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Cetana (volition, intention)is controllable? (was kusala, akusala, ignorance, wrong view, samatha,samadhi, dogmas, drugs and ex-Christian aunts! > > And what does "obtaining results" mean exactly? Eradication of > > defilements, I guess. Otherwise "obtaining results" sounds so > > materialistic. > > Moments of satipatthana/insight (development of the path), perhaps? I came to the tentative conclusion some time ago that 'obtaining results' refers sometimes to nibbaana and sometimes to favorable rebirths, depending on the context. Not sure where I got this--wonder if the commentaries have anything to say. mike > > > > "But as for any priests or contemplatives endowed with > > > > right view, right resolve, right speech, right action, > > > > right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, & > > > > right concentration: If they follow the holy life even > > > > when having made a wish, they are capable of obtaining > > > > results. If they follow the holy life even when having > > > > made no wish, they are capable of obtaining results. > > > > If they follow the holy life even when both having > > > > made a wish and having made no wish, they are capable > > > > of obtaining results. If they follow the holy life > > > > even when neither having made a wish nor having made > > > > no wish, they are capable of obtaining results. Why is > > > > that? Because it is an appropriate way of obtaining > > > > results. 33504 From: Date: Sun May 30, 2004 4:34am Subject: Re: [dsg] Conditioned? Concentration? ( was Re: I have a wonderful wife Hi, James - In a message dated 5/30/04 3:09:17 AM Eastern Daylight Time, buddhatrue@y... writes: > > Thank you for your new explanation. I guess this depends on what > you consider the nature of cittas to be. Personally, I do believe > in cittas but I don't believe that they last only one billionth of a > second, as has been proposed in this group previously, and I don't > think that they all last the same duration. > ------------------------------------------- Howard: Well, I just don't know. But this may well be tangential to this specific issue - that is, the durations and their variation may not be important. ------------------------------------------- Regarding the object of > > each citta, I believe that that is determined by the arising of each > particular rupa and not any `inclination' or personal choice...but > each citta will have an influence on each subsequent citta. ------------------------------------------- Howard: Well, whether rupas, when the object is a rupa rather than a nama, are independent of experience or not, and whether one can validly make the distinction between a potential experience and an actual one, I think that what content comes to mind - that is, what is *noticed* - is affected by mental state. Even if one takes the view - which I do not - that there is an objective flow of arising and ceasing rupas that are actualities *independent of experience*, not all of them are taken as objects of consciousness - there is a selection in what is observed, and I'm taking 'one-pointedness' to be the tendency for "the same" object of consciousness to be repeatedly observed. (The term 'tendency' or 'inclination' is probably not a great pick, because I don't mean to imply by it a conscious choice, though it may be affected by such, but more something like a mental force or impulsion that provides a stabilization of attention.) ----------------------------------------------- Really, > > I think we are starting to get into an area of theory that is > outside what the Buddha taught. In other words, your guess is as > good as mine! ;-)) > > ======================= I agree that we are theorizing here. Still, it doesn't hurt to do so if it clarifies one's understanding and provided one doesn't hold fast to a particular pet theory. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 33505 From: Date: Sun May 30, 2004 4:46am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: concentration and Panna Hi, Andrew - In a message dated 5/30/04 3:16:38 AM Eastern Daylight Time, athel60@t... writes: > the Internet > > > > Hi Nina and Howard > > Enjoying your discussion but would like to interrupt it with a riddle. > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > >Hi, Nina - > > > >In a message dated 5/29/04 2:43:46 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > nilo@e... > >writes: > > > >>I think that the word concentration may mislead people. > >>with regard to vipassana: to me it seems very strange that you > have to > >>concentrate first and then wisdom will arise. As I see it, they > are > >>together, and concentration grows as wisdom grows, and at the > moment of > >>lokuttara citta, samadhi has the strength of jhana, by > conditions. In other > >>suttas we read: right understanding comes first, in other words, > takes the > >>lead. > >> > >========================= > H: They are mutually supportive, as in the spiral analogy. But > there are > >numerous suttas that emphasize the role of concentration as > predecessor to > >insight, including the ones I recently quoted from the Anguttara > Nikaya. > > A: Howard, do you see the workings of consciousness ( or namarupa, if > you like) as a soup and analysing it being akin to doing the taste > test eg "this is cumin", "this is ginger", "this is garlic"? If so, > how does what I call "sequentialism" come into the picture eg "first > you develop your concentration then something else will develop > followed by something else again ..." Can we predict conditionality > to that extent? The analysis is a mere intellectual exercise, is it > not, to gain some level of understanding? To truly know how things > are is something for direct experience which, I suspect, has no place > for sequential dissection. Do you see any conflict/contradiction > between "mutually supportive" and "predecessor/successor"? > ------------------------------------------- Howard: No, I don't. Because I see the occurrence of factor A being condition for the arising of a subsequent factor B, and the occurrence of B serving as condition for a repeated subsequent (strengthened) occurrence of A yet again. I also don't rule out simultaneity of occurrence and support. But as regards the relations among cetasikas, I must confess to having inadequate mental development in terms of mindfulness, concentration, and clarity to directly see more than just a finger-pinch of the details, and so I must depend on the teachings and my contemplation of them to establish a provisional view on these matters. -------------------------------------------- > > Best wishes > Andrew ======================= With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 33506 From: Date: Sun May 30, 2004 4:56am Subject: Re: [dsg] 'Birth is suffering, old age is suffering, death is suffering....' Hi, Jon - In a message dated 5/30/04 4:21:02 AM Eastern Daylight Time, jonoabb@y... writes: > Howard > > --- upasaka@a... wrote: >Hi, Larry - > > > >In a message dated 5/28/04 10:04:56 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > >LBIDD@w... > >writes: > > > >>It occurred to me today that impermanence could also be seen as > >amusing, > >>even laughable, not a source of suffering at all. > >==================== > >Exactly so. But what is impermanent is a source of suffering when clung > >to. > > > >With metta, > >Howard > > Dhammas as a 'source of suffering' is an aspect of the first Noble Truth, > but not of dukkha as a characteristic of dhammas, I think. > > As far as I can make out, the fully enlightened being would continue to > see dhammas as dukkha (and anicca and anatta), since he has fully > understood the 3 characteristics, as well as having penetrated the four > Noble Truths. > > Jon > > ========================= I see dukkha of dhammas as a relational matter - specifically their being unsatisfactory, or, better, unsatisfying. They are dukkha in that 1) they are not a source of true satisfaction, and 2) clinging to them is a source of distress. Thus, all conditioned dhammas fail to satisfy and they also are conditions (but not sufficient conditions) for the arising of distress. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 33507 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Sun May 30, 2004 11:25am Subject: Re: [dsg] 'Birth is suffering, old age is suffering, death is suffering....' Hi Jon, Indeed. It seems to me that you see the problem now. Metta, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Victor > > Given your comments in another thread about the perceived contradiction > between the Sammohavinodani and the suttas, I'm wondering if you also see > a contradiction between the statement "The five aggregates, on their own, > do not constitute suffering or stress" in the passage below and the > frequent mention in the suttas that dhammas/the five aggregates are > dukkha. > > Jon > > --- yu_zhonghao wrote: > Hi Larry, > ... > > [1] > > The five aggregates, on their own, do not constitute suffering or > > stress. They are stressful only when functioning as objects of > > clinging/sustenance. This hybrid word -- clinging/sustenance -- is a > > translation of the Pali term upadana. [snip] > > > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/modern/thanissaro/wings/3h2.html 33508 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Sun May 30, 2004 11:42am Subject: [dsg] Re: 'Meaning fully drawn out' vs. 'meaning to be inferred' Hi Jon, And you would need to know when to infer and what a correct inference is. A right inference will bring out the meaning clearly. An entangling and convoluting spin is, after all, entangling and convoluting. Metta, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Victor > > I agree that the Madhupindika Sutta (Majjhima Nikaya 18) is an example of > a sutta whose meaning needs to be inferred. However, my question was > really directed to how one is to recognise the not-so-obvious cases (i'm > not sure if your answer addresses this). > > As I mentioned in my earlier post, there are many terms used in the suttas > that can only be understood by reference to other suttas or, in some > cases, to sources outside the sutta pitaka altogether. Consider the > following terms from other threads under discussion at the moment: > > 1. In the Anapanasati Sutta there are numerous references to 'mindfulness > of in-&-out breathing', obviously a key term for understanding this sutta. > I know of no explanation of the meaning of this term within any sutta -- > if you do, I'd be interested to know the passage. > > 2. In some suttas the Four Noble Truths are given as a bare statement > without any explanation, for example, <<'This is suffering,' ... 'This is > the origin of suffering,' ... 'This is the cessation of suffering,' ... > 'This is the road leading to the cessation of suffering,'>> (see > Satipatthana Sutta, The Way of Mindfulness translation, below for an > example). In such cases the meaning needs to be inferred from other parts > of the Tipitaka, since the statement as it stands does not convey the > detail about birth etc as suffering (in the first Noble Truth) or the > Noble Eightfold Path as the way leading to the cessation of suffering (in > the fourth Noble Truth). > > 3. In many suttas where 'atta'/'anatta' is mentioned, there is no > explanation of the meaning of that expression. One needs to go to other > parts of the tipitaka (such as the Anatta-lakkhana Sutta) for an > explanation. > > It seems to me that where there is no sufficient description of a term > within the sutta itself, the sutta is to that extent one 'whose meaning > needs to be inferred'. > > Jon 33509 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Sun May 30, 2004 11:50am Subject: [dsg] Re: Pannatti (Concept) Hi Jon, I think I will just leave the view that you came up with to yourself. Metta, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Victor > > As I have previously mentioned, the terms kaaya-sankhaara, vacii- sankhaara > and citta-sankhaara are used in 2 different contexts, and have different > meanings in each. > > The first sutta you mention below (SN 12:2) deals with sankhaara in the > context of dependent origination, where it is explained in terms of > bodily-, verbal- and mental-volitional formations. The explanation given > in the commentaries for these 3 terms is as follows (from Collected > Discourses of the Buddha, n. 7 at p. 727): > kaaya-sankhaara -- twenty kinds of bodily volition (kayasancetana) that > motivate activity in the body door > vacii-sankhaara -- twenty kinds of verbal volition (vaciisancetana) that > motivate verbal utterances > citta-sankhaara -- twenty-nine mundane wholesome and unwholesome mental > volitions (manosancetana) that occur privately in thought without > motivating action in the doors of body and speech. > > The second sutta you mention (MN 44) deals with cessation of perception > and feeling. As you have pointed out, the description of each term given > in the suttas is as follows: > kaaya-sankhaara -- in-&-out breathing > vacii-sankhaara -- thought and examination (vitakka and vicara) > citta-sankhaara -- perception and feeling (sanna and vedana) > > In that context, the 3 terms apparently refer to the different kinds of > activity that cease and as the cessation of perception and feeling is > entered into, and that later resume as the cessation of perception and > feeling is left. > > In a note to SN 12:2 referred to above, the translator says that sankhaara > in the context of dependent origination should be distinguished from > sankhaara in the context of cessation of perception and feeling (note 7 at > pp 727, 728 of CDB): > "This triad of sankhara should not be confused with the triad discussed at > 41:6... The latter triad is always introduced in relation to the cessation > of perception and feeling and is never brought into connection with > dependent origination." > > In the context of dependent origination, kaaya-sankhaara refers to > specific dhammas that are anicca/dukkha/anatta, while in the context of > cessation of perception and feeling kaaya-sankhaara refers to in-&- out > breathing. In-&-out breathing is not a specific dhamma but is, like > 'person' and 'body', a term used to denote a particular group or groups of > dhammas as generally perceived. > > See my answers to your specific questions below. > > --- yu_zhonghao wrote: > Hi Jon, Mike, and all, > > > > Let me quote the following: > > > > > > "And what are fabrications? These three are fabrications: bodily > > fabrications, verbal fabrications, mental fabrications. These are > > called fabrications." > > > > Samyutta Nikaya XII.2, Paticca-samuppada-vibhanga Sutta > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn12-002.html > > > > > > "Now, lady, what are fabrications?" > > > > "These three fabrications, friend Visakha: bodily fabrications, > > verbal fabrications, & mental fabrications." > > > > Majjhima Nikaya 44, Cula-vedalla Sutta > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/majjhima/mn044.html > > > > And in Cula-vedalla Sutta, it is stated that in-&-out breaths are > > bodily fabrications. > > > > Jon, are fabrications inconstant, dukkha, not self? > > Yes, it is said by the Buddha that all sankhara's are anicca, dukkha and > anatta. > > > Are bodily fabrications inconstant, dukkha, not self? > > In the context of dependent origination, yes; in the context of cessation, > 'kaaya-sankhara' does not fall within the ambit of the Buddha's atatement > that 'All sankhara are annica, dukkha and anatta' > > > Are in-&-out breaths inconstant, dukkha, not self? > > Same answer as for the second part of my answer to the previous question > > Jon > > > 33510 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Sun May 30, 2004 11:56am Subject: [dsg] Re: Breath as bodily formation (was, Pannatti (Concept)) Hi Jon, I think I have said enough on this thread. Metta, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Victor > > --- yu_zhonghao wrote: > Hi Jon, > > > > In-&-out breathings, fabrications, fabricated, are inconstant, > > dukkha, not self. > > > > Metta, > > Victor > > As far as I know, there's no direct statement to this effect in the texts. > > What is found in the texts are the statements that (1) all conditioned > dhammas (sankhara) are anicca/dukkha/anatta, and (2) kaaya- sankhaara is > in-&-out breathing. As I have previously explained, however, we cannot > conclude from this that in-&-out breathing is anicca/dukkha/anatta, since > the different uses of 'sankhara' cannot be substituted for each other in a > straightforward manner. > > If you have a copy of the 'Collected Discourses of the Buddha', Bhikkhu > Bodhi's translation of the Samyutta Nikaya, you may like to look at his > comments on 'Sankhara' in the General Introduction (pages 44 to 47), where > he discusses the 'five major doctrinal contexts' in which the term occurs > in the Samyutta Nikaya. > > For example, in the context of dependent origination, sankhara is > synonymous with 'kamma' (i.e., cetana cetasika), and kaaya- sankhaara means > kamma performed through the body door. > > The sutta at 41:6 deals with cessation of perception and feeling. In note > 298 (p 1442) the translator says: > "The three terms -- kaaya-sankhaara, vacii-sankhaara and citta- sankhaara > -- are in Pali identical with those that make up the sankhara factor of > dependent origination..., but in this context the purport is different ... > .Here, in the compounds kaaya-sankhaara and citta-sankhaara, sankhara > clearly has a passive sense: what is formed or generated > ('sankhariiyati') in dependence on the body or the mind." > > This sense of 'being formed in dependence of the body' is of course quite > different from the cetana accompanying actions through the body door (in > the dependent origination context). > > However the crucial difference, as regards the statement that all > conditioned dhammas (sankhara) are anicca/dukkha/anatta, is that there is > no dhamma called in-&-out breathing. > > Jon 33511 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Sun May 30, 2004 0:18pm Subject: Re: [dsg] 'Birth is suffering, old age is suffering, death is suffering....' Hi Larry, Reply in context. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Larry" wrote: > Hi Victor, > > Thanks for this explanation of upadana. You are welcome. It seems clear that the > upadana link in dependent arising is precisely where self-view > arises; Regarding self-view, please check the reference at the end of the message. although we could say it is implicit throughout much of the > dependent arising. The four dimensions of clinging (sense objects, > views, rites and rituals, and self views) seem like a more pointed > way of classifying the khandhas and concepts as objects of clinging. Concepts are mental fabrications. Another way to see it: Sensuality, views, rites and rituals, and doctrines of self are fabrications. These fabrications are the sustenance for further becoming. > Any ideas on how these four "focus" or orient objects of > consciousness? What is the point of this question? Why not just say clinging clings to everything except > nibbana? ..... Translating upadana as "clinging/sustenance" brings out the > sense of upadana as cause of dukkha (fuel for the fire). Also it > seems clear that clinging and dukkha are "bound" together. I wonder > by what conditions? ..... > > I don't have anything to add on amusement as a possible response to > impermanence. It is a matter of the state of mind that apprehends > impermanence. Analyzing a sense of humor in terms of cittas and > cetasikas is way beyond my abilities. Care to try it? No. > > Larry > Metta, Victor [1] Samyutta Nikaya XLI.3 Isidatta Sutta About Isidatta http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn41-003.html "But, venerable sir, how does self-identity view come into being?" "There is the case, householder, where an uninstructed, run-of-the- mill person -- who has no regard for noble ones, is not well-versed or disciplined in their Dhamma; who has no regard for men of integrity, is not well-versed or disciplined in their Dhamma -- assumes form (the body) to be the self, or the self as possessing form, or form as in the self, or the self as in form. He assumes feeling to be the self, or the self as possessing feeling, or feeling as in the self, or the self as in feeling. He assumes perception to be the self, or the self as possessing perception, or perception as in the self, or the self as in perception. He assumes (mental) fabrications to be the self, or the self as possessing fabrications, or fabrications as in the self, or the self as in fabrications. He assumes consciousness to be the self, or the self as possessing consciousness, or consciousness as in the self, or the self as in consciousness. This is how self-identity view comes into being." "And, venerable sir, how does self-identity view not come into being?" "There is the case, householder, where a well-instructed disciple of the noble ones -- who has regard for noble ones, is well-versed & disciplined in their Dhamma; who has regard for men of integrity, is well-versed & disciplined in their Dhamma -- does not assume form to be the self, or the self as possessing form, or form as in the self, or the self as in form. He does not assume feeling to be the self... He does not assume perception to be the self... He does not assume fabrications to be the self... He does not assume consciousness to be the self, or the self as possessing consciousness, or consciousness as in the self, or the self as in consciousness. This is how self- identity view does not come into being." 33512 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun May 30, 2004 0:29pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Phil: nibbana op 30-05-2004 15:18 schreef Philip op plnao@j...: > Does Magga-citta refer to this experience of Nibbana at each stage > of enlightenment? N: Yes, there is magga-citta at the stage of the sotapanna, the sakadagami, the anagami and the arahat. Defielements are successively eradicated at those moments, the latent tendencies. Ph: Does meditation on Nibbana necessarily mean > experience of Nibbana? N: No. You may not have the Visuddhimagga, Path of Purification, by Buddhaghosa. It is under VIII, 245, Recollection of Peace. It can only lead to access concentration, not to jhana because of its profundity. Only an ariyan has success with this subject (because he has experienced it), but also a worldling can recollect it. Philip, this reminds me of something. The Visuddhimagga desribes very well the Brahmaviharas. Did you learn about the far and near ennemies of each one of them? This is very important, but you may have learnt this in your group. I just listened to a Thai tape on the subject, it is very good and I thought of you. Nina 33513 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun May 30, 2004 0:29pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Formal meditation IS NOT mandatory for attainment of Liberation Dear Christine, Yes I thought so when reading about joy and piti. And there is a degree of calm when listening and considering, is there not? But not all the time, cittas can also wander about. This sutta may also help to understand: who is concentrated (samadhi) understands things as they really are. There are so many degrees of samadhi. Thank you for this sutta quote, I appreciate it. How wonderful that monks chant it. Nina. op 30-05-2004 11:19 schreef christine_forsyth op cforsyth@v...: > RobK goes on to say: > "All of these five ways of attaining enlightenment come with samadhi > and with panna (wisdom), but we might overlook the samadhi of the > first four ways because it may not be as strong as that leading to > jhana. But it is samadhi and it is supported by panna, wisdom. > It is a long sutta that is popular for monks to chant. > robertK" 33514 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Sun May 30, 2004 1:35pm Subject: Re: Formal meditation IS NOT mandatory for attainment of Liberation Hi Chritine and all, Couple comments: 1. There is no need to disregard or defend "formal meditation." It is a strawman. 2. To realize the cessation of dukkha, developing tranquility and insight, as well as right concentration, is necessary. There is no way around that. 3. There is nothing wrong with developing tranquility and insight while sitting down folding his legs crosswise, holding one's body erect. This is a posture that one might assume. Why? Because it is conducive in calming the bodily fabrications. Metta, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Dear Group, > > For those, like me, who have been wondering at the modern day > disageements over the place of formal meditation within Buddhism, > this may provide some further food for thought: > > The Anguttara Nikaya 5.3.26 gives the five occasions when Liberation > is attained: > > "Bhikkhus, these five are the sphere of the releases, in which > spheres when the bhikkhu dwells diligent to dispel, either the not > released mind is released, or the unexhausted desires get exhausted > or > the noble end of unpleasantness not yet attained is attained. What > five?" > > 1.LISTENING TO THE DHAMMA > "Here, bhikkhus, the Teacher or else a certain eminent > co-associate in the holy life, teaches the bhikkhu. Then he gradually > understands the meanings and experiences the Teaching. When > understanding the meanings and experiencing the Teaching delight > arises, to the delighted joy arises Of one with a joyful mind the > body > appeases. The appeased body experiences pleasa ntness. The mind of > one > who experiences pleasantness comes to one point. Bhikkhus, this is > the > first of the five releases, in which spheres when the bhikkhu dwells > diligent to dispel, either the not released mind is released, or the > unexhausted desires get exhausted or the noble end of unpleasantness > not yet attained is attained". > > 2. TEACHING THE DHAMMA > "Again, bhikkhus, neither the Teacher nor an eminent co-associate in > the holy life teaches. Yet the bhikkhu preaches others in detail the > Teaching that he had heard and mastered When he preaches others in > detail the Teaching that he had heard and mastered he realizes the > meaning and experiences the Teaching and delight arises, to the > delighted joy arises Of one with a joyful mind the body appeases. The > appeased body experiences pleasantness. The mind of one who > experiences pleasantness comes to one point. Bhikkhus, this is the > second of the five releases, in which spheres when the bhikkhu dwells > diligent to dispel, either the not released mind is released, or the > unexhausted desires get exhausted or the noble end of unpleasantness > not yet attained is attained." > > 3. REPEATING THE DHAMMA > "Again, bhikkhus, neither the Teacher nor an eminent co-associate in > the holy life teaches him. He does not preach others in detail the > Teaching that he had heard and mastered > > Yet he recites in detail, the Teaching that he had heard and mastered > and realizing the meanings and experiencin g the Teaching delight > arises, to the delighted joy arises Of one with a joyful mind the > body > appeases. The appeased body experiences pleasantness. The mind of one > who experiences pleasantness comes to one point. Bhikkhus, this is > the > third of the five releases, in which sphere when the bhikkhu dwells > diligent to dispel, either the not released mind is released, or the > unexhausted desires get exhausted or the noble end of unpleasantness > not yet attained is attained." > > 4. REFLECTING ON THE DHAMMA > "Again, bhikkhus, neither the Teacher nor an eminent co-associate in > the holy life teaches him. He does not preach others in detail the > Teaching that he had heard and mastered, > nor does he recite in detail, the Teaching that he had heard and > mastered. Yet he thinks and discursively thinks about the Teaching > that he had heard and mastered and the mind touches a point and > delight arises. To the delighted joy arises Of one with a joyful mind > the body appeases. The appeased body experiences pleasantness. The > mind of one who experiences pleasantness comes to one point. > Bhikkhus, > this is the fourth of the five releases, in which sphere when the > bhikkhu dwells diligent to dispel, either the not released mind is > released, or the unexhausted desires get exhausted or the noble end > of > unpleasantness not yet attained is attained." > > 5. SOME CONCENTRATION SIGN (SAMADHI NIMITTA) IS RIGHTLY REFLECTED > UPON AND UNDERSTOOD. > "Again, bhikkhus, neither the Teacher nor an eminent co-associate in > the holy life teaches him. He does not preach others in detail the > Teaching that he had heard and mastered, > nor does he recite in detail, the Teaching that he had heard and > mastered. He does not think and discursively think about the Teaching > that he had heard and mastered and the mind does not touch a point. > Yet a certain meditation object well grasped and well established is > penetratingly seen with wisdom and delight arises. To the delighted > joy arises Of one with a joyful mind the body appeases. The appeased > body experiences pleasantness. The mind of one who experiences > pleasantness comes to one point. Bhikkhus, this is the fifth of the > releases, in which sphere when the bhikkhu dwells diligent to dispel, > either the not released mind is released, or the unexhausted desires > get exhausted or the noble end of unpleasantness not yet attained is > attained. > > Bhikkhus, these five are the releases, in which spheres when the > bhikkhu dwells diligent to dispel, either the not released mind is > released, or the unexhausted desires get exhausted or the noble end > of > unpleasantness not yet attained is attained." > http://www.metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/4Anguttara- > Nikaya/Anguttara3/5-pancakanipata/003-pancangikavaggo-e.htm > OR TRY, > http://tinyurl.com/2dwt7 > > And - of these five occasions, it is vital to note that ONLY THE > LAST ONE possibly refers to formal meditation. This indicates that > Understanding the Dhamma is of paramount importance for liberation. > > Comments? > > metta and peace, > Christine > ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- 33515 From: Larry Date: Sun May 30, 2004 2:35pm Subject: Re: [dsg] 'Birth is suffering, old age is suffering, death is suffering....' Jon: "The arahant who has not yet attained parinibbana has transcended certain aspects of 'dukkha as Truth', but 'dukkha as a characteristic of conditioned dhammas' is not susceptible to being transcended, except upon attaining parinibbana." Hi Jon, I agree. I wonder if we could say dukkha as truth means "painful" because of being bound-up with desire, and dukkha as characteristic means "undesirable" because of being linked with impermanence. Perhaps we could say dukkha as truth is a reality with a cause, while dukkha as characteristic is a "characteristic" concept without a cause as such. I think you are also right to suggest the goal is to transcend both dukkhas. Do you know of any commentary or scripture that supports two readings of dukkha? Larry 33516 From: Larry Date: Sun May 30, 2004 2:44pm Subject: Re: [dsg] 'Birth is suffering, old age is suffering, death is suffering....' Hi Victor, The cause of dukkha is tanha, sensual craving, craving for existence, and craving for non-existence. Upadana is sensuous clinging, clinging to views, clinging to rules and rituals, and clinging to personality belief. It appears that the only thing the two have in common is sense pleasure. Why is there a difference and how do we resolve this difference? Larry 33517 From: Date: Sun May 30, 2004 11:14am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Formal meditation IS NOT mandatory for attainment of Liberation Hi, Victor - I think the following is very well put. With metta, Howard In a message dated 5/30/04 4:46:27 PM Eastern Daylight Time, yu_zhonghao@y... writes: > Hi Chritine and all, > > Couple comments: > > 1. There is no need to disregard or defend "formal meditation." It > is a strawman. > > 2. To realize the cessation of dukkha, developing tranquility and > insight, as well as right concentration, is necessary. There is no > way around that. > > 3. There is nothing wrong with developing tranquility and insight > while sitting down folding his legs crosswise, holding one's body > erect. This is a posture that one might assume. Why? Because it is > conducive in calming the bodily fabrications. > > Metta, > Victor > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 33518 From: Andrew Date: Sun May 30, 2004 4:08pm Subject: [dsg] Re: concentration and Panna Hi Howard Thanks for your clarifying comments, but ... --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: [snip] I see the occurrence of factor A being condition > for the arising of a subsequent factor B, and the occurrence of B serving as > condition for a repeated subsequent (strengthened) occurrence of A yet again. I > also don't rule out simultaneity of occurrence and support. But as regards > the relations among cetasikas, I must confess to having inadequate mental > development in terms of mindfulness, concentration, and clarity to directly see more > than just a finger-pinch of the details, and so I must depend on the > teachings and my contemplation of them to establish a provisional view on these > matters. Andrew: If "right understanding comes first" is a correct description indicating that, in terms of the Path, a moment without right understanding is useless/irrelevant, then surely trying to arrange other factors like right concentration etc is like re-arranging the deck chairs on the Titanic? (-: Best wishes Andrew 33519 From: Date: Sun May 30, 2004 0:34pm Subject: Re: [dsg] 'Birth is suffering, old age is suffering, death is suffering....' Hi, Larry (and Victor) - In a message dated 5/30/04 6:34:55 PM Eastern Daylight Time, LBIDD@w... writes: > Hi Victor, > > The cause of dukkha is tanha, sensual craving, craving for existence, > and craving for non-existence. Upadana is sensuous clinging, clinging > to views, clinging to rules and rituals, and clinging to personality > belief. It appears that the only thing the two have in common is > sense pleasure. Why is there a difference and how do we resolve this > difference? > > Larry > ======================= I think that the categorizings of tanha and upadana that you gave, and are, indeed, standard, are formulations that emphasize important aspects of the defilements that hold us in thrall, but which are not fully general. Upadana generally is clinging to desired phenomena or to the absence of undesired phenomena, and it is an outgrowth of craving for the presence or the absence of these phenomena or of feelings associated with them. (One doesn't typically crave a view or crave rites and rituals, but one *does* crave the pleasant feelings they produce.) When something is desired and then obtained, or imagined to be obtained, one clings to that phenomenon. As I see it, when reality then forces one to lose his/her grip on the desired phenomenon, craving often increases even more, and a viscious cycle ensues involving emotional proliferation. Of course it is also frequently the case that when a desired phenomenon is "attained", it loses its allure, and then the desire for it is replaced by aversion - actual dislike or perhaps boredom - and by the desire for a substitute, or some time may go by, one comes to forget that the object of desire was not really worthy, and desire for it arises yet again. Up and down, and back and forth we are thrown on the waves of desire and clinging, carried along on the ocean of samsara. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 33520 From: Date: Sun May 30, 2004 0:37pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: concentration and Panna Hi, Andrew - In a message dated 5/30/04 7:09:09 PM Eastern Daylight Time, athel60@t... writes: > Andrew: If "right understanding comes first" is a correct description > indicating that, in terms of the Path, a moment without right > understanding is useless/irrelevant, then surely trying to arrange > other factors like right concentration etc is like re-arranging the > deck chairs on the Titanic? (-: > ===================== Well. I don't see that there is much of anything of ultimate import that we can *directly* arrange or control. But I do believe that we can set in motion series of events that are salutory. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 33521 From: Date: Sun May 30, 2004 5:34pm Subject: Vism.XIV 80 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) Ch. XIV 80. But 'matter as characteristic' is called 'not born of anything'. Why? Because there is no arising of arising, and the other two are the mere maturing and breakup of what has arisen. Though in the passage, 'The visible-data base, the sound base, the odour base, the favour base, the tangible-data base, the space element, the water element, lightness of matter, malleability of matter, wieldiness of matter, growth of matter, continuity of matter, and physical food--these states are consciousness-originated' (cf. Dhs. 667) and so on, a state of birth [that is, growth] being born from somewhere can be understood as allowable since the point of view here is the moment when the conditions that are giving birth to the kinds of materiality are exercising their function. This, firstly, is the section of the detailed explanation dealing with the materiality aggregate. 33522 From: Philip Date: Sun May 30, 2004 5:52pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Cetana (volition, intention)is controllable? (was kusala, akusala, ignorance, wrong view, samatha,samadhi, dogmas, drugs and ex-Christian aunts! Hi Jon, and all Thanks for the feedback, and confirmation re that "wish." May I ask some more questions about cetana voltion/intention? Jon: > Cetana is, as you say, one of the 'universal' cetasikas. It is the > 'kamma' of kamma and vipaka, since deeds are essentially the manifestation > of their accompanying intention. > > Intention can be used in a number of everyday senses, but in perhaps the > most commonly meant it is nothing more than a kind of thinking. In other > conventional senses (legal, philosophical, etc) it may also connote > various wholesome or unwholesome states of mind. Now, I've done so much reading in various religions before "settling" on the Buddha's teaching, that I can't remember if I read this in a book by a Christian mystic (Meister Eckhardt?) or in new -agey stuff like Seat of the Soul or whether it was the Buddha's teaching, but is there anything about the value of intentions in themselves, irregardless of whether the intention is carried through? I guess this would be intention in the more conventional sense rather than the universal cetasika sense, because I am talking about intentions that arise and stand out in a very clear way. Certainly a kind of thinking. For example, when I told Nina that I intended to send a donation to the Dhamma Foundation to thank her for her books, but didn't, was the intention itself kusala even though it wasn't followed through? That is just one example. (Don't worry, Nina, I'm not fretting about it at all.) Another example. THe other day I was walking in the park and suddenly intended *not* to drink any alcohol when I fly to Canada this summer. (I have stopped drinking alcohol completely here, but there is such a tradition of enjoying a few cocktails on the rare occasions I fly across the ocean, and in the airport bar.) So I intended not to, to stay in the moment and examine present realities rather than soaking in sweet addled fancies as I gazed at the clouds and flipped from the clasical station to the jazz station to the Japanese Pop station on my headset. Ah...bliss. Oops. I just intended to drink! damn! ;) Was the intention I felt quite clearly the other day, an intention that just kind of arose, of a kusala nature in itself? If "deeds are essentially the manifestation of their accompanying intention", but the deed is some months down the road, can it be said there was wholesome khamma with the intention? I'm not wanting to use this as a way of having wholesome khamma by intending things intentionally - but if an seemingly wholesome intention arises on its own, clearly, explicitly, in an unexpected way...can I understand it as kusala? Thanks in advance for your feedback, Jon. I know how busy you are. If anyone else has can help me with this, please jump in. Metta, Phil 33523 From: Date: Sun May 30, 2004 5:59pm Subject: Re: [dsg] 'Birth is suffering, old age is suffering, death is suffering....' Hi Howard, I agree that craving is wanting what is imaginatively lacking and clinging is holding on to an imaginary source of security, but I wonder why the objects of the two are different. Any ideas? Also, how does this relate to 'upadana khandha'? And how does one dispel craving for existence and non-existence? [if you say the 8-fold path please explain] Larry --------------------------- In a message dated 5/30/04 6:34:55 PM Eastern Daylight Time, LBIDD@w... writes: Hi Victor, The cause of dukkha is tanha, sensual craving, craving for existence, and craving for non-existence. Upadana is sensuous clinging, clinging to views, clinging to rules and rituals, and clinging to personality belief. It appears that the only thing the two have in common is sense pleasure. Why is there a difference and how do we resolve this difference? Larry ======================= I think that the categorizings of tanha and upadana that you gave, and are, indeed, standard, are formulations that emphasize important aspects of the defilements that hold us in thrall, but which are not fully general. Upadana generally is clinging to desired phenomena or to the absence of undesired phenomena, and it is an outgrowth of craving for the presence or the absence of these phenomena or of feelings associated with them. (One doesn't typically crave a view or crave rites and rituals, but one *does* crave the pleasant feelings they produce.) When something is desired and then obtained, or imagined to be obtained, one clings to that phenomenon. As I see it, when reality then forces one to lose his/her grip on the desired phenomenon, craving often increases even more, and a vicious cycle ensues involving emotional proliferation. Of course it is also frequently the case that when a desired phenomenon is "attained", it loses its allure, and then the desire for it is replaced by aversion - actual dislike or perhaps boredom - and by the desire for a substitute, or some time may go by, one comes to forget that the object of desire was not really worthy, and desire for it arises yet again. Up and down, and back and forth we are thrown on the waves of desire and clinging, carried along on the ocean of samsara. With metta, Howard 33524 From: robmoult Date: Sun May 30, 2004 6:05pm Subject: Re: Heart thing Hi All, My lurker friend replied off-list and seemed satisfied with my response below. He then asked "Now, why do cittas have to have physical support? Can't they just arise on the base of conditions without any rupa arround?" My answer is: In the immaterial planes of existence (arupa-loka), there is no physical base of support for the cittas. It would therefore seem that the need for a physical base is a characteristic of the plane of existence rather than a characterisitic of cittas themselves. Arupavacara cittas (formless jhana mental states; very high meditative states) can arise in both the arupa-loka and in the kama- loka (sensous world where humans reside). When these mental states arise in arupa-loka, they do not require a physical base but when the same mental states arise in kama-loka, they require a physical base. Metta, Rob M :-) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" wrote: > Hi All, > > A lurker sent me the following message off-list. I am choosing to > reply here. > > ===== > > Hi Rob :) > > in few places, seems like all of them in thai forest tradition > there is something about heart. > > "The Ballad of Liberation from the Khandhas" > by Phra Bhuridatto (Mun)Wat Srapathum [Bangkok] > states: > [...] > "What runs?" > "What runs quickly is viññana, > movements walking in a row, > one after another. Not doubting that saññas are right, > the heart gets caught up in the running back & forth. > Saññas grab hold of things outside > and pull them in to fool the mind, > Making it think in confusion & go out searching, > wandering astray. > They fool it with various dhammas, > like a mirage." > "What gains total release from the five khandhas?" > "The heart, of course, & the heart alone. > It doesn't grasp or get entangled. > No more poison of possessiveness, > no more delusion, > it stands alone. > No saññas can fool it into following along > behind them." > > [...] > > and now, in your EXCELENT text, > > [...]At the time of rebirth, consciousness concomitant with 23 vipaka > citta > s conditions rupa through: > - Conascence condition. > - Mutuality condition (only applies to heart-base rupa).[...] > > would you please tell me what this heart thing is? > > ===== > > My reply is as follows: > > You wrote, "seems like all of them in thai forest tradition". I > disagree. "Heart" is a very important concept in many Mahayana > traditions (Prajnaparamita Heart Sutta is highly revered). > > It would appear that in the first case, the author is using the > term "heart" in a contemporary fashion to mean "mind", especially the > emotional aspect of "mind". For example, in conventional speech, what > do you mean when you say, "to follow my heart", "in my heart, I > feel...", "I love you with all my heart"? In all cases, it is the > emotional aspect of mind. > > In the second case, I am using the term "heart-base" (hadayavatthu). > Here is a relevant extract from Bhikkhu Bodhi's Comprehensive Manual > of Abhidhamma (p 144): > According to the Pali commentators, the heart serves as the physical > support for all cittas other than the two sets of fivefold sense > consciousness, which take their respective sensitivities as their > bases. In the canonical Abhidhamma the heart base is not expressly > mentioned. The Patthana, the last book of the Abhidhamma Pitaka, > simply speaks of "that matter in dependence on which the mind element > and mind-consciousness element occur". The Commentaries, however, > subsequently specific "that matter" to be the heart-base, a cavity > situated within the physical heart. > > > > The commentary that Bhikkhu Bodhi is referring to is Vism VIII 111- > 113. In classical India, it was believed that the mind was centered > in the heart (not the brain). This was because it was clear that > sense data moved about the body and the only thing that the ancient > Indians could see as moving in the body was blood. Since all blood > makes its way back to the heart, it was believed that the mind was > centred in the heart. > > The fact that the canonical Abhidhamma did not slip into a common > understanding of the day and avoided the issue by saying "that matter > in dependence on which the mind element and mind-consciousness > element occur" really impresses me. It suggests to me that the author > of the Patthana knew that the heart was not centre of the mind but > did not want to enter into that argument that would distract from the > point of the Abhidhamma. > > Metta, > Rob M :-) 33525 From: Philip Date: Sun May 30, 2004 6:06pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Phil: nibbana Hi Nina, and all > > > Does Magga-citta refer to this experience of Nibbana at each stage > > of enlightenment? > N: Yes, there is magga-citta at the stage of the sotapanna, the sakadagami, > the anagami and the arahat. Defielements are successively eradicated at > those moments, the latent tendencies. Ph: I see. I tend to never think about the stages of enlightenment, because I assume I am so far away. Would you encourage me to think more about what is involved at each stage? I guess one thing I should be remembering is that the sotapanna has seen the last of wrong view of self. That is something I can and already am taking steps my first steps towards. > Ph: Does meditation on Nibbana necessarily mean > > experience of Nibbana? > N: No. You may not have the Visuddhimagga, Path of Purification, by > Buddhaghosa. Ph: I don't, and it is so central to discussion here that I can be sure it is an essential text. Is there a particular edition that is recommended? I want to buy the anthology of MN by Bhikkhu Bodhi but am thinking these days that I will throughly study the AN that I have printed out first. Perhaps it will be the Visuddhimagga that I purchase instead. N:> Philip, this reminds me of something. The Visuddhimagga desribes very well > the Brahmaviharas. Did you learn about the far and near ennemies of each one > of them? This is very important, but you may have learnt this in your group. > I just listened to a Thai tape on the subject, it is very good and I thought > of you. Ph: Thank you for thinking of me. Yes, the far and near enemies have been discussed at my Brahma-Viharas group, and I think Rob M shared some thoughts on them a while back when I was asking about Mudita. Your encouragement will send me back to confirm my understanding of these near and far enemies. Metta, Phil 33526 From: Philip Date: Sun May 30, 2004 6:38pm Subject: Near and far enemies of Brahma-Viharas Hi all Nina encouraged me to look into the near and far enemies of the Brahma-Viharas, so I will share what I learned about them through the good graces of Google. (sorry, no reference available for author.) A near enemy is a "state which resembles the true abiding but misses if by being tinged with the defilements." A far enemy is "Its polar opposite, which cannot share the same mental continuum." The far enemy of metta is ill will, the near enemy is greed, according to the text I gound. Greed as in attachment to the loved one, I guess, involving wrong view of self. "The near enemy of compassion is grief." I've read that karuna cetasika can only be accompanied by pleasant or neutral mental feeling. If there is unpleasant mental feeling, I guess that means the near enemy is at work. "The far enemy is cruelty." When I wish that my worrisome in-lws would simply disappear from the face of the earth, this far ebeny is at work. According to the text I read, the near enemy of sympathetic joy is sensual pleasure, the far enemy is aversion and boredom. I've said before that mudita is the one of the four that I have the most trouble understanding. I would have thought that the far enemy is envy, and the near enemy a kind of deluded bliss that is founded on wrong understanding. A belief that all is well in the world, that joy will prevail thanks to the Buddha's teaching. That is not the case. Of course, there is bliss based in right understanding - one of the 7 factors of enlightentment, if I recall correctly. (rapture?) "Equanimity is the highest and most refined of the divine abidings" says this text. I think upekkha is the starting point of the Brahma- Viharas, based on right understanding (even at an intellectual level) of annata, annica and dukkha. So I might not think of it as the highest or most refined, because that makes it sound as though it were rarer or harder to have, only available in the 4th Jhana. In my opinion it is the most central and common, though the Jhana version is surely a different degree of eqaunimity than what I am thinking about. I'm digressing. The near enemy of equanimity is ignorance, says the text. ("what the Thai tradition calls "water-buffalo equanimity.") The far enemies are both attachment and aversion. What about indifference. Indifference could be a near enemy, I'd say. Thanks for reminding me about the near and far enemies, Nina. If anyone has a different interpretation of them from the text I referred to, or my own interpretations, please jump in. Metta, Phil 33527 From: Philip Date: Sun May 30, 2004 6:56pm Subject: Sati and mindfulness - "completely different?" Hello Nina, and all. Nina, your mention of the near and far enemies reminded me of something that I wanted to ask about from Buddhism in Daily Life. On p.116, you write "Sati in vipassana is mindful, non-forgetful of ultimate realities, of the namas and rupas which appear. It is *completely different* from what we mean by "mindfulness" or "awareness" in conventional language." This "completely different" makes me think of the "polar opposites" of the far enemies, while it seems to me that my conventional mindfulness is on the same mental continuum as true sati, though still miles away. Wouldn't you agree that refining one's conventional mindfulness, pressing gently ahead with it, in the light of the Buddha's teaching and in the company of good dhamma friends will lead one towards sati? I would guess that there can be no sati without having first pressed ahead with conventional mindfulness for some time. Yesterday I walked through the train station and was mindful of walking through the train station. Can I one day be walking through the train station and have a sati moment re realities of hardness, temperature etc without having first walked through that station many times with conventional awareness of walking through a train station? Well, I can imagine in theory how I could. That "completely different" might put off beginners like myself from making first steps towards sati, through conventional mindfulness, in my opinion. Isn't conventional mindfulness related in some way to sati in vipassana, perhaps as an early stage of sati? Perhaps I am just nitpicking about language, but that "completely different" seems a bit tough. :) Metta, Phil 33528 From: robmoult Date: Sun May 30, 2004 7:05pm Subject: Re: Near and far enemies of Brahma-Viharas Hi Phil, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Philip" wrote: > Nina encouraged me to look into the near and far enemies of the > Brahma-Viharas, so I will share what I learned about them through the > good graces of Google. (sorry, no reference available for author.) > > A near enemy is a "state which resembles the true abiding but > misses if by being tinged with the defilements." A far enemy is "Its > polar opposite, which cannot share the same mental continuum." ===== The far enemy is easy to identify as it is an opposite. The near enemy is much more dangerous as it masquerades as a friend and can easily be mistaken for a sublime state. ===== > > The far enemy of metta is ill will, the near enemy is greed, > according to the text I gound. Greed as in attachment to the loved > one, I guess, involving wrong view of self. ===== The near enemy of metta is selfish affection, attachment. We should find out whether we want to be kind only to people who we particularly like, or whether we are kind to whomever we meet, because we are truly concerned for his welfare. From our own experience we can learn to see the difference between loving kindness and selfish affection. When there is loving kindness we do not think of our own enjoyment in someone's company. ===== > > "The near enemy of compassion is grief." I've read that karuna > cetasika can only be accompanied by pleasant or neutral mental > feeling. If there is unpleasant mental feeling, I guess that means > the near enemy is at work. > "The far enemy is cruelty." When I wish that my worrisome in-lws > would simply disappear from the face of the earth, this far ebeny is > at work. ===== The far enemy of karuna is cruelty. The near enemy of karuna is aversion. When we see someone else who is in miserable circumstances, there tend to be moments of compassion when we wish to help to allay his suffering and there can also be moments of aversion about his suffering. ===== > > According to the text I read, the near enemy of sympathetic joy is > sensual pleasure, the far enemy is aversion and boredom. I've said > before that mudita is the one of the four that I have the most > trouble understanding. I would have thought that the far enemy is > envy, and the near enemy a kind of deluded bliss that is founded on > wrong understanding. A belief that all is well in the world, that joy > will prevail thanks to the Buddha's teaching. That is not the case. > Of course, there is bliss based in right understanding - one of the 7 > factors of enlightentment, if I recall correctly. (rapture?) ===== The far enemy of mudita is aversion (boredom). One cannot have joy when one is bored. At the moment of mudita there is calm. I agree with you that if we tend to be jealous, it is difficult to cultivate mudita. The near enemy of mudita is joy based on the home life, as both share in seeing success. When we say to someone else: "What a beautiful garden you have", there may be moments of sympathetic joy, sincere approval of his good fortune, but there may also be moments with attachment to pleasant objects. ===== > > "Equanimity is the highest and most refined of the divine abidings" > says this text. I think upekkha is the starting point of the Brahma- > Viharas, based on right understanding (even at an intellectual level) > of annata, annica and dukkha. So I might not think of it as the > highest or most refined, because that makes it sound as though it > were rarer or harder to have, only available in the 4th Jhana. In my > opinion it is the most central and common, though the Jhana version > is surely a different degree of eqaunimity than what I am thinking > about. > > I'm digressing. > The near enemy of equanimity is ignorance, says the text. ("what the > Thai tradition calls "water-buffalo equanimity.") The far enemies are > both attachment and aversion. What about indifference. Indifference > could be a near enemy, I'd say. ===== The near enemy of upekkha is ignorance. One may think that there is equanimity when, in fact, we are simply ignoring. Indifference is a form of ignorance. ===== > > Thanks for reminding me about the near and far enemies, Nina. If > anyone has a different interpretation of them from the text I > referred to, or my own interpretations, please jump in. > ===== Metta, Rob M :-) 33529 From: Andrew Date: Sun May 30, 2004 8:44pm Subject: Playing around with the past Dear DSGers Peter Harvey writes that, according to Dhamma, we have had "countless" rebirths. When I first came to Buddhism, I was encouraged to develop metta and compassion towards "difficult" people by remembering that, in the past, they had shown great compassion towards me - indeed, they had even been my mother! Can anyone tell me if there is a source for this in the Pali Tipitika? Identity issues aside (ie anatta), I am not convinced that this technique is based on panna as it so easily becomes "tit for tat" ("Okay, you're nasty to me but I would have been nasty to you in a past life, so we're even.") Best wishes Andrew 33530 From: Date: Sun May 30, 2004 4:51pm Subject: Re: [dsg] 'Birth is suffering, old age is suffering, death is suffering....' Hi, Larry - In a message dated 5/30/04 9:50:42 PM Eastern Daylight Time, LBIDD@w... writes: > Hi Howard, > > I agree that craving is wanting what is imaginatively lacking and > clinging is holding on to an imaginary source of security, but I wonder > why the objects of the two are different. Any ideas? > > Also, how does this relate to 'upadana khandha'? And how does one dispel > craving for existence and non-existence? [if you say the 8-fold path > please explain] > > Larry > ======================= Larry, I don't think I have much of value to add to what you quote me as saying below. Sorry. With metta, Howard > --------------------------- > In a message dated 5/30/04 6:34:55 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > LBIDD@w... writes: > Hi Victor, > The cause of dukkha is tanha, sensual craving, craving for existence, > and craving for non-existence. Upadana is sensuous clinging, clinging to > views, clinging to rules and rituals, and clinging to personality > belief. It appears that the only thing the two have in common is sense > pleasure. Why is there a difference and how do we resolve this > difference? > Larry > ======================= > I think that the categorizings > of tanha and upadana that you gave, and are, indeed, standard, are > formulations that emphasize important aspects of the defilements that > hold us in thrall, but which are not fully general. Upadana generally is > clinging to desired phenomena or to the absence of undesired phenomena, > and it is an outgrowth of craving for the presence or the absence of > these phenomena or of feelings associated with them. (One doesn't > typically crave a view or crave rites and rituals, but one *does* crave > the pleasant feelings they produce.) > When something is desired and > then obtained, or imagined to be obtained, one clings to that > phenomenon. As I see it, when reality then forces one to lose his/her > grip on the desired phenomenon, craving often increases even more, and a > vicious cycle ensues involving emotional proliferation. Of course it is > also frequently the case that when a desired phenomenon is "attained", > it loses its allure, and then the desire for it is replaced by aversion > - actual dislike or perhaps boredom - and by the desire for a > substitute, or some time may go by, one comes to forget that the object > of desire was not really worthy, and desire for it arises yet again. Up > and down, and back and forth we are thrown on the waves of desire and > clinging, carried along on the ocean of samsara. > With metta, > Howard > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 33531 From: Andrew Date: Sun May 30, 2004 11:48pm Subject: [dsg] Re: concentration and Panna --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Andrew - > > In a message dated 5/30/04 7:09:09 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > athel60@t... writes: > > > Andrew: If "right understanding comes first" is a correct description > > indicating that, in terms of the Path, a moment without right > > understanding is useless/irrelevant, then surely trying to arrange > > other factors like right concentration etc is like re-arranging the > > deck chairs on the Titanic? (-: > > > ===================== Howard: Well. I don't see that there is much of anything of ultimate import > that we can *directly* arrange or control. But I do believe that we can set in > motion series of events that are salutory. Hi Howard As a reward for your salutory patience and good cheer, I shall sign off on this thread with the final paragraph of the Culasihananda Sutta as translated by Bhikkhu Bodhi: "Bhikkhus, when ignorance is abandoned and true knowledge has arisen in a bhikkhu, then with the fading away of ignorance and the arising of true knowledge, he no longer clings to sensual pleasures, no longer clings to views, no longer clings to rules and observances, no longer clings to a doctrine of self. When he does not cling, he is not agitated. When he is not agitated, he personally attains Nibbana. He understands: 'Birth is destroyed, the holy life has been lived, what had to be done has been done, there is no more coming to any state of being'." Back to you and Nina! Best wishes Andrew 33532 From: Sarah Date: Mon May 31, 2004 0:31am Subject: Re: [dsg] kammathana, meditation subject Dear Nina, --- nina van gorkom wrote: > Dear Sarah > N: Just in vipassana, in the texts about the two meanings of jhana: > jhana > that has the subjects of samatha, and jhana of the three > characteristics. > Here is a text: > We read in the 3Discourse on Expunging2(M. I, no 8, Sallekhasutta) that > the > Buddha said to Cunda: > > 3These, Cunda, are the roots of trees, these are empty places. Meditate, > Cunda; do not be slothful; be not remorseful later. This is our > instruction > to you.2 > > In Pali the word 3jhåyathå2 is used, that can be translated as > contemplate. > The Commentary to this sutta, the 3Papañcasúdaní2, explains that there > are > two meanings of jhåna: > contemplation on the thirtyeight objects of samatha > (aramma.núpanijjhåna), > and contemplation on the characteristics (lakkhaùúpanijjhåna), beginning > with impermanence, with reference to the khandhas, the sense-fields > (åyatanas) and so on. The Commentary states: 3It is said, develop > samatha > and vipassanå. Do not be slothful; be not remorseful later.2 .... S:Thank you for reminding me. Yes we’ve discussed these suttas many times and I’d forgotten the use of the Pali terms ‘amramma.nuupanijjhaana’ and ‘lakkhanuupanijjhaana’ in this context. Often friends bring up the well-known Dhp verse 372 (inc. Victor recently to Christine): ..... V: >natthi jhaana.m apa~n~nassa There is no jhana for one with no discernment pa~n~naa natthi ajjhaayato no discernment for one with no jhana< .... When these lines were briefly discussed on our last trip to Bkk, K.Sujin was referring to these same two kinds of jhana, ‘amramma.nuupanijjhaana’ and ‘lakkhanuupanijjhaana’, and suggesting that in this context it is the second meaning, i.e (the contemplation/penetrating of) the characteristics of any reality that is being referred to. (Actually, I recall now that when I discussed this verse briefly with Victor before, I referred to those same earlier discussions jhaaya and jhaayatha and the earlier details from the Tiika to this Dhp verse which RobK gave in post 30795. He also quoted Jim’s earlier helpful comments on these terms in post 11524.) So when we read any of these terms, usually translated as meditation, meditate, meditator, concentration etc, we need to look at the context: jhaana, jhaayati, jhaayathaa, jhaayana, jhaayin etc .... > And here is the Pali about the objects of meditation: > Papa~ncasuudanii, Atthk to the Sallekhasutta (M.N. I,8): > Jhaayathaa ti. aaramma.nuupanijjhaanena a.t.thati.msaaramma.naahi > (thirtyeight objects of samatha), lakkha.nuupanijjhaanena ca aniccaadito > (beginning with aniccaa) khandhaayatanaadiini upanijjhaayatha. Samatha~n > ca > vipassana~ca va.d.dhetaa(develop) ti vutta.m hoti. Maa pamaadatthaati > maapamajjittha(do not be neglectful). .... S: Develop samatha and vipassana, penetrating the characteristics inherent in the khandhas etc. Don’t be neglectful!! (Pa~n~naa, not self!). Many thanks, Metta, Sarah ===== 33533 From: christine_forsyth Date: Mon May 31, 2004 1:06am Subject: Re: Playing around with the past Hello Andrew, Perhaps this is what you were thinking of?: Samyutta Nikaya XV.14-19 Mata Sutta 'Mother' At Savatthi. There the Blessed One said: "From an inconstruable beginning comes transmigration. A beginning point is not evident, though beings hindered by ignorance and fettered by craving are transmigrating & wandering on. A being who has not been your mother at one time in the past is not easy to find... A being who has not been your father... your brother... your sister... your son... your daughter at one time in the past is not easy to find. "Why is that? From an inconstruable beginning comes transmigration. A beginning point is not evident, though beings hindered by ignorance and fettered by craving are transmigrating & wandering on. Long have you thus experienced stress, experienced pain, experienced loss, swelling the cemeteries -- enough to become disenchanted with all fabricated things, enough to become dispassionate, enough to be released." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn15-014.html --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Andrew" wrote: > Dear DSGers > > Peter Harvey writes that, according to Dhamma, we have > had "countless" rebirths. > When I first came to Buddhism, I was encouraged to develop metta and > compassion towards "difficult" people by remembering that, in the > past, they had shown great compassion towards me - indeed, they had > even been my mother! > Can anyone tell me if there is a source for this in the Pali Tipitika? > Identity issues aside (ie anatta), I am not convinced that this > technique is based on panna as it so easily becomes "tit for tat" > ("Okay, you're nasty to me but I would have been nasty to you in a > past life, so we're even.") > > Best wishes > Andrew 33534 From: buddhatrue Date: Mon May 31, 2004 1:07am Subject: Re: Near and far enemies of Brahma-Viharas --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" wrote: > Hi Phil, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Philip" wrote: > > Nina encouraged me to look into the near and far enemies of the > > Brahma-Viharas, so I will share what I learned about them through > the > > good graces of Google. (sorry, no reference available for author.) > > > > A near enemy is a "state which resembles the true abiding but > > misses if by being tinged with the defilements." A far enemy > is "Its > > polar opposite, which cannot share the same mental continuum." > > ===== > > The far enemy is easy to identify as it is an opposite. The near > enemy is much more dangerous as it masquerades as a friend and can > easily be mistaken for a sublime state. > > ===== > > > > The far enemy of metta is ill will, the near enemy is greed, > > according to the text I gound. Greed as in attachment to the loved > > one, I guess, involving wrong view of self. > > ===== > > The near enemy of metta is selfish affection, attachment. We should > find out whether we want to be kind only to people who we > particularly like, or whether we are kind to whomever we meet, > because we are truly concerned for his welfare. From our own > experience we can learn to see the difference between loving kindness > and selfish affection. When there is loving kindness we do not think > of our own enjoyment in someone's company. > > ===== > > > > "The near enemy of compassion is grief." I've read that karuna > > cetasika can only be accompanied by pleasant or neutral mental > > feeling. If there is unpleasant mental feeling, I guess that means > > the near enemy is at work. > > "The far enemy is cruelty." When I wish that my worrisome in- lws > > would simply disappear from the face of the earth, this far ebeny > is > > at work. > > ===== > > The far enemy of karuna is cruelty. The near enemy of karuna is > aversion. When we see someone else who is in miserable circumstances, > there tend to be moments of compassion when we wish to help to allay > his suffering and there can also be moments of aversion about his > suffering. > > ===== > > > > According to the text I read, the near enemy of sympathetic joy > is > > sensual pleasure, the far enemy is aversion and boredom. I've said > > before that mudita is the one of the four that I have the most > > trouble understanding. I would have thought that the far enemy is > > envy, and the near enemy a kind of deluded bliss that is founded on > > wrong understanding. A belief that all is well in the world, that > joy > > will prevail thanks to the Buddha's teaching. That is not the case. > > Of course, there is bliss based in right understanding - one of the > 7 > > factors of enlightentment, if I recall correctly. (rapture?) > > ===== > > The far enemy of mudita is aversion (boredom). One cannot have joy > when one is bored. At the moment of mudita there is calm. I agree > with you that if we tend to be jealous, it is difficult to cultivate > mudita. > > The near enemy of mudita is joy based on the home life, as both share > in seeing success. When we say to someone else: "What a beautiful > garden you have", there may be moments of sympathetic joy, sincere > approval of his good fortune, but there may also be moments with > attachment to pleasant objects. > > ===== > > > > "Equanimity is the highest and most refined of the divine > abidings" > > says this text. I think upekkha is the starting point of the Brahma- > > Viharas, based on right understanding (even at an intellectual > level) > > of annata, annica and dukkha. So I might not think of it as the > > highest or most refined, because that makes it sound as though it > > were rarer or harder to have, only available in the 4th Jhana. In > my > > opinion it is the most central and common, though the Jhana > version > > is surely a different degree of eqaunimity than what I am thinking > > about. > > > > I'm digressing. > > The near enemy of equanimity is ignorance, says the text. ("what > the > > Thai tradition calls "water-buffalo equanimity.") The far enemies > are > > both attachment and aversion. What about indifference. Indifference > > could be a near enemy, I'd say. > > ===== > > The near enemy of upekkha is ignorance. One may think that there is > equanimity when, in fact, we are simply ignoring. Indifference is a > form of ignorance. > > ===== > > > > Thanks for reminding me about the near and far enemies, Nina. If > > anyone has a different interpretation of them from the text I > > referred to, or my own interpretations, please jump in. > > > ===== > > Metta, > Rob M :-) Friend Rob M., I think that this is a very nice, complete, and impartial description of the near and far enemies of the Brahma-Viharas. I wish to personally thank you for your efforts. To add one thing you don't mention, which is my opinion (I think), just because the Brahma-Viharas have near and far enemies that isn't sufficient reason to become alarmist and consider them dangerous for practice. In samsara, everything has near and far enemies, but that is no reason to become immobilized with fear about wrong practice. Metta, James 33535 From: Sarah Date: Mon May 31, 2004 1:09am Subject: Re: [dsg] Feelings and Dreams Hi Christine & Howard, Excuse me for picking up this thread rather late. I understood your feelings and concern with this issue, Chris. A long time ago I raised a series of events starting with a couple of dreams . Ok, one was on the first night I arrived in India (back in the early 70s) and related to a very unusual dream about a place. It was forgotten, but later when I went to Sarnath, I seemed to recognise the place from the dream and seemed to have a sense of knowing my way around (highly unusual for me!!). Many years later, I started to touch on it once with K.Sujin, still trying to understand and probably, secretly rather proud of it. She cut it short before I got to the end of the sentence and just said ‘Attachment’. She could have added ‘Let it go!’. That was the implication and it was certainly the end of that topic. It gave me a bit of a shock at the time but it was very helpful. I understood from the one word that whether the experiences seemed good or bad at the time, the thinking and proliferating and trying to work them out merely indicates attachment now. Much better to just let them go. It’s like a special or unusual experience that someone reports from their meditation. It’s gone already and dwelling on it, trying to work it out, just increases attachment to oneself and one’s experiences. We can never understand all the conditions at work, but as understanding develops, there is less and less cause for doubt about the conditioned nature of any dhammas appearing. I’m inclined to agree with Howard’s comments here and in another post too: --- upasaka@a... wrote: >I think that it is a matter of our somehow picking up on the fact that (nearly) all the conditions necessary for the occurrence of an event have occurred, making that event a (near) certainty. Of course, picking up on that fact might well be an additional condition that could, itself, alter the flow of events. But, bottom-line, I think this is just an instance of causes and conditions, and it doesn't violate in any way the idea of momentariness (or, better, of what is current being what is actual). Conditionality is the core of the Dhamma as I see it.< S: Again we have to remember it’s a path of detachment and not attribute importance to any unusual experiences, natural as it may be to do so;-). I don’t find it helpful to dwell or reflect on any dreams or particularly strong emotions (i.e. more thinking with kilesa, accompanied by pleasant or unplesant feelings at these times usually), otherwise there’s just more clinging to oneself again. I apologise if these comments sound rather direct or discouraging. Metta, Sarah ====== 33536 From: Sarah Date: Mon May 31, 2004 1:18am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Dependent Origination-a representation Hi Victor, --- yu_zhonghao wrote: > Let me first quote the following from > Samyutta Nikaya XII.2 > Paticca-samuppada-vibhanga Sutta > Analysis of Dependent Co-arising > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn12-002.html > > > "And what is ignorance? Not knowing stress, not knowing the > origination of stress, not knowing the cessation of stress, not > knowing the way of practice leading to the cessation of stress: This > is called ignorance." .... Good quotes and we're in agreement so far on this thread(!!), apart from the fact that I think 'stress' is most inaccurate as a translation of dukkha. ... > What does it mean by knowing the cessation of the dukkha? > > Let me use a simile: > Suppose one is wandering in the desert, suffering from heat and > thirst. However, he knows that there is an oasis ... .... It's a good simile (sorry to cut it short). Just remind me where I can read it in the texts, would you? TIA. Metta, Sarah ======= 33537 From: Sarah Date: Mon May 31, 2004 2:18am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: 'Meaning fully drawn out' vs. 'meaning to be inferred' Hi Victor, Firstly, thank you very much for providing this sutta - just what I was looking for. We had a detailed discussion on it ages ago - maybe before escribe! --- yu_zhonghao wrote: > [1] > Anguttara Nikaya IV.42 > Pañha Sutta > Questions > Translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu. > For free distribution only. > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > ----------- > "There are these four ways of answering questions. Which four? There > are questions that should be answered categorically > [straightforwardly yes, no, this, that]. There are questions that > should be answered with an analytical (qualified) answer [defining > or redefining the terms]. There are questions that should be > answered with a counter-question. There are questions that should be > put aside. These are the four ways of answering questions." **** S: Note that this sutta refers to the various methods of reply. ‘Categorical’ refers to one form of possible answer, not to the questions. I think we all have to determine, according to limited wisdom and other factors which respnse we feel is most appropriate at any time. ... V:> As I understand it: > > No, the Buddha did not recommend or suggest that all Yes/No > questions should at all times be answered with a `Yes', `No' > or `Don't know' reply. > > On the other hand, nor did the Buddha recommend or suggest that > categorical questions should be evaded. > > Categorical questions[1] are questions like > > Is birth dukkha or not? .... S: See my comment above;-). .... V: > Let me put forth this question, but you don't have to answer it. > > If someone says to you: > > "Abandon what is unskillful, Sarah. It is possible to abandon what > is unskillful. <...> > But because this development of what is skillful is conducive to > benefit and pleasure, I say to you, 'Develop what is skillful.'" > > would you make an effort to abandon what is unskillful and develop > what is skillful or would you ask others the question > "Do you see the Abandoning and Developing as being performed by > self, or panna, accompanied by other eightfold path factors, or > meditation as defined by sitting cross-legged in a quiet > room,focusing on breath?" > ? .... S: It might well depend on who quoted the sutta and in what context and whether I considered there would be any value in such a discussion;-) Because we often interpret suttas in a different way, I chose to ask for a clarification to check we were on the same page. I still have no idea from your response;-). OK, let me tell you that I see pa~n~naa, accompanied by other eightfold path factors as performing the Developing and Abandoning. Here are a few quotes: 1. From ‘Questions of King Milinda, ch 111’ "Just as, your majesty, a person might bring a lamp into a dark house, and with the lamp lit dispels the darkness, produces illumination, shows the light, and makes manifest forms, so too, your majesty, wisdom arising dispels the darkness of ignorance, produces the illumination of insight, brings forth the light of knowledge, and makes manifest the noble truths; and further, the spiritual practitioner sees with complete understanding impermanence, unsatisfactoriness, and corelessness." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/khuddaka/index.html#miln 2.From AN, Bk of Ones, XV11, ‘The Seed’ (PTS transl) “<...> Monks, I know not of any other single thing so apt to cause the non-arising of evil states not yet arisen, or, if arisen, to cause their waning , as right view. Monks, in one of right view evil states not yet arisen arise not,or, if arisen, waste away. “<....>Monks, I know not of any other single thing so apt to cause the arising of good states not yet arisen, or, if arisen, to cause their more-becoming and increase, as right view. Monks, in one of right view good states not yet arisen rise, or, if arisen, are apt to grow and grow.” ***** 3. From Mahaacattaariisaka sutta, MN117 “Therein, bhikkhus, right view comes first”. In Bodhi’s footnote 1100 for `pubbangamaa', lit. "the forerunner", he gives: "MA says that two kinds of right view are forerunners: the right view of insight [as being discussed above], which investigates formations as impermanent, suffering, and non-self; and the right view of the path, which arises as a consequence of insight and effects the radical destruction of defilements." “And how does right view come first? One [i.e pa~n~naa] understands wrong view as wrong view and right view as right view: this is one’s right view.” In Bodhi’s footnote 1101, he gives: “MA says that this is the right view of insight which understands wrong view as an object by penetrating its characteristics of impermanence, etc, and which understands right view by exercising the function of comprehension and by clearing away confusion.” ***** In any case, Victor, I’d like to thank you very much for this and all the other excellent sutta passages you’ve posted recently, full of very helpful reminders. I know you’ll soon be going away and I know I’ll miss your contributions again if you’re unable to post at any time and sincerely hope that your plans work out as you’d like and provide many opportunities for wise reflection, companionship and wisdom. Thank you again for helping me to consider and reflect so often. Metta, Sarah ====== 33538 From: christine_forsyth Date: Mon May 31, 2004 2:35am Subject: Re: [dsg] Feelings and Dreams Hello Sarah, all, Please be at ease - no discouragement experienced at all. I don't feel any great attachment or specialness because of the feelings and dreams - they simply 'are' and I don't feel they, or I, are of any particularly importance. These occasional dreams and feelings just don't fit with what the Abhidhamma teaches - that there is only the present moment, and the future does not yet exist in any form. metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > Hi Christine & Howard, > > Excuse me for picking up this thread rather late. I understood your > feelings and concern with this issue, Chris. A long time ago I raised a > series of events starting with a couple of dreams . Ok, one was on the > first night I arrived in India (back in the early 70s) and related to a > very unusual dream about a place. It was forgotten, but later when I went > to Sarnath, I seemed to recognise the place from the dream and seemed to > have a sense of knowing my way around (highly unusual for me!!). Many > years later, I started to touch on it once with K.Sujin, still trying to > understand and probably, secretly rather proud of it. She cut it short > before I got to the end of the sentence and just said `Attachment'. She > could have added `Let it go!'. That was the implication and it was > certainly the end of that topic. It gave me a bit of a shock at the time > but it was very helpful. > > I understood from the one word that whether the experiences seemed good or > bad at the time, the thinking and proliferating and trying to work them > out merely indicates attachment now. Much better to just let them go. It's > like a special or unusual experience that someone reports from their > meditation. It's gone already and dwelling on it, trying to work it out, > just increases attachment to oneself and one's experiences. We can never > understand all the conditions at work, but as understanding develops, > there is less and less cause for doubt about the conditioned nature of any > dhammas appearing. > > I'm inclined to agree with Howard's comments here and in another post too: > > --- upasaka@a... wrote: > >I think that it is a matter of our somehow picking up on the fact that > (nearly) all the conditions necessary for the occurrence of an event have > occurred, making that event a (near) certainty. Of course, picking up on > that fact might well be an additional condition that could, itself, alter > the flow of events. But, bottom-line, I think this is just an instance of > causes and conditions, and it doesn't violate in any way the idea of > momentariness (or, better, of what is current being what is actual). > Conditionality is the core of the Dhamma as I see it.< > > S: Again we have to remember it's a path of detachment and not attribute > importance to any unusual experiences, natural as it may be to do so;-). I > don't find it helpful to dwell or reflect on any dreams or particularly > strong emotions (i.e. more thinking with kilesa, accompanied by pleasant > or unplesant feelings at these times usually), otherwise there's just more > clinging to oneself again. > > I apologise if these comments sound rather direct or discouraging. > > Metta, > > Sarah > ====== > > > 33539 From: Date: Mon May 31, 2004 4:19am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: concentration and Panna Hi, Andrew (and Larry) - In a message dated 5/31/04 3:21:28 AM Eastern Daylight Time, athel60@t... writes: > Howard: Well. I don't see that there is much of anything of > ultimate import > >that we can *directly* arrange or control. But I do believe that we > can set in > >motion series of events that are salutory. > > Hi Howard > > As a reward for your salutory patience and good cheer, I shall sign > off on this thread with the final paragraph of the Culasihananda > Sutta as translated by Bhikkhu Bodhi: > > "Bhikkhus, when ignorance is abandoned and true knowledge has arisen > in a bhikkhu, then with the fading away of ignorance and the arising > of true knowledge, he no longer clings to sensual pleasures, no > longer clings to views, no longer clings to rules and observances, no > longer clings to a doctrine of self. When he does not cling, he is > not agitated. When he is not agitated, he personally attains > Nibbana. He understands: 'Birth is destroyed, the holy life has been > lived, what had to be done has been done, there is no more coming to > any state of being'." > > Back to you and Nina! > > Best wishes > Andrew > ========================= Thank you, Andrew, for this "thread-terminating post". ;-) I will afford myself of this opportunity to make use of this post to point out something that I have just noticed. Larry, with regard to our recent exchange on your query as to the distinction between items standardly mentioned as craved and items mentioned as clung to: Here the Buddha states "when ignorance is abandoned and true knowledge has arisen in a bhikkhu, then with the fading away of ignorance and the arising of true knowledge, he no longer clings to sensual pleasures, no longer clings to views, no longer clings to rules and observances, no longer clings to a doctrine of self." Two of these, personality belief and clinging to rules and rituals are, of course, two of the three fetters abandoned at stream entry. Instead of sceptical doubt, here there is mentioned ignorance and clinging to sensual pleasures and views. But it is not surprising that so much is mentioned, because this passage does not speak about stream entry, but entry to the state of arahant, inasmuch as abandoning both sensual pleasures and ignorance (the "topper") are spoken of and there is said "He understands: 'Birth is destroyed, the holy life has been lived, what had to be done has been done, there is no more coming to any state of being'." It occurs to me, Larry, the standard presentation of clinging as being a matter of _________________________ > sensuous clinging (kámupádána), clinging to views (ditthupádána), clinging > to mere rules and ritual (sílabbatupádána), clinging to personality-belief > (atta-vádupádána) ___________________________ is mainly directed at stream enterers or those close to stream entry, because for stream enterers only sensuous clinging then remains as a fetter to be abandoned or nearly so (plus significant weakening of ill will) in order for a stream enterer to become a once returner. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 33540 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon May 31, 2004 10:02am Subject: Perseverance in Dhamma, Ch 3, no 3 Perseverance in Dhamma, Ch 3, no 3 Insight develops stage by stage, so that eventually enlightenment can be attained. At the first stage of enlightenment, the stage of the sotåpanna, wrong view of self is eradicated, and at the fourth and final stage, the stage of the arahat, all defilements are eradicated. Some people at the Buddha¹s time had accumulated a high degree of understanding and when they heard only a few words, when they heard about the impermanence of realities such as seeing or hearing, they could immediately penetrate their true nature and even attain arahatship. Acharn Sujin stressed many times that the objects insight has to be developed of are very ordinary, occurring in daily life, but that attachment always distracts us from awareness and understanding of what appears at the present moment. Lobha urges us to do something different from understanding seeing or hearing that arises now. Seeing for the arahat is not different from seeing for us at this moment. However, we still have ignorance, wrong view and all the other defilements. We see all that appears through the eyes. Seeing is a reality, a dhamma that appears. Ignorance does not know that it is dhamma. It is natural that ignorance and wrong view follow upon seeing very often. When we have a notion of ³I see persons and things², the dhamma at that moment is not seeing but thinking of concepts. Gradually we can learn that there are many different dhammas appearing through the six doors, one at a time. This is a condition for the arising of direct awareness and understanding and it is the sure way leading to the penetration of anattå. During lunch in Khun Duangduen¹s garden we discussed realities while we were enjoying the food. I was reflecting on hardness, a reality that is experienced through the bodysense. Sometimes there can be just a moment of awareness of hardness, and I was discussing this with Acharn Sujin. She reminded me of the truth, saying, ³Even when there is awareness of hardness, there is still an idea of hardness as Œmine¹.² She explained that there is an underlying tendency of ³self¹, even when we believe that there is awareness. She said that lobha is always with us, that it is the second noble Truth, which is the cause of dukkha [3]. We may be thinking of lobha and wrong view, but only when they arise, there can be understanding of them. Paññå knows that they must be eliminated. Footnote: 3. The four noble Truths are: dukkha, the unsatisfactoriness inherent in all conditioned realities, the origin of dukkha that is craving, the cessation of dukkha that is nibbåna and the eightfold Path leading to the cessation of dukkha. **** Nina. 33541 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon May 31, 2004 10:02am Subject: Re: [dsg] Phil, Near and far enemies of Brahma-Viharas Dear Philip, I am glad you looked at the far and near enemies. After Friday, when I have returned from our short leave I shall now and then post some notes from A. Sujin's tape. For now just about mudita, see below. op 31-05-2004 03:38 schreef Philip op plnao@j...: > According to the text I read, the near enemy of sympathetic joy is > sensual pleasure, the far enemy is aversion and boredom. N: You thought of jealousy as the far enemy, but it is aversion. Jealousy accompanies citta rooted in aversion. This may clarify that aversion is mentioned here. The sotapanna has eradicated jealousy, but not aversion. Thus, for the sotapanna it is easier to have mudita. The sotapanna has right view about kamma and vipaka, he understands that whatever fortune someone else has, this is the result of kamma. Thus, there is no reason for jealousy. Also in the course of insight, even at the beginning stage of insight, there is understanding of kamma and vipaka. Seeing and hearing are vipaka, but so long as we do not know them as conditioned namas we are ignorant of what vipaka is. The sotapanna is a person who walks straight, ujupatipanno, as the Pali text states about respect to the Sangha. The monks chanit, we chant it all the time when we are in India, going around in the holy places. Entered on the straght way, on the true way. As we read in A. Sujin's Wholesome Deeds, straightening one's views is one of the ten kusala kammas, and this can be applied with all kusala kamma. When we discern more the near and far enemies, we are straightening our views. Lobha can be very subtle, we may be easily deluded and take it for kusala. A fine discrimination is needed. Straightening one's views is necessary with the Brahmaviharas and all forms of mental development. Nina. 33542 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon May 31, 2004 10:02am Subject: Re: [dsg] Phil: Sati Dear Philip, Very good you bring this up. I like to discuss this more later on. op 31-05-2004 03:56 schreef Philip op plnao@j...: > On p.116, you write "Sati in vipassana is mindful, non-forgetful of > ultimate realities, of the namas and rupas which appear. It is > *completely different* from what we mean by "mindfulness" > or "awareness" in conventional language." (snipped) > I would guess that there can be no sati without having first pressed > ahead with conventional mindfulness for some time. Yesterday I walked > through the train station and was mindful of walking through the > train station. N: In Ch 16, more is explained. I give a quote of the satipatthanasutta about the monk walking etc. In the same sutta we read: The Co explains that this is not sati of satipatthana, also dogs and jackals can have this sort of awareness. It does not shed the belief in a living being. In other words, he should know nama and rupa as they are. When you know that you are walking to the station, it is merely thinking, and usually thinking with lobha or wrong view: I walk. Rob K likes this text, a good topic when you are with him. Will you tape or make notes? > Ph: That "completely different" might put off beginners like myself > from making first steps towards sati, through conventional > mindfulness, in my opinion. Isn't conventional mindfulness related in > some way to sati in vipassana, perhaps as an early stage of sati? > Perhaps I am just nitpicking about language, but that "completely > different" seems a bit tough. :) N: Yes, it may feel like being hit on the head, doesn't it? I tell you something. Until we are sotapanna, a person who walks straight, we are going to have misunderstandings about sati, very normal. I often ask A. Sujin: how do I know the difference between thinking of nama and rupa and awareness, it seems a fine borderline. It is good to know what we do not know. It is true, it is straight. We prefer the truth. More and more I appreciate walking straight and straightening one's views. When the factors of concentration, effort and mindfulness accompany panna, they are all balanced. It is panna that should be emphasized more than mindfulness. When there is panna there is the balance of all factors leading to enlightenment. Concentration, effort and mindfulness arise already when there is right understanding. In Ch 16, I explain about the objects of mindfulness and that is important. Right understanding of the objects of mindfulness, nama and rupa. Intellectual understanding that is correct is the precursor of direct understanding. That is why A. Sujin says, it is better not to think so much of sati. Is there any understanding of dhamma now, she repeats. This is what we have to ask ourselves time and again. Conventional sati will not help to have more understanding of what the objects of satipatthana are. Of course, while walking you can reflect on those objects, or you can sit on a cushion (with coffee) and reflect on the Dhamma. Good to take time for reflection. Nina. 33543 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon May 31, 2004 10:02am Subject: Tiika Vis. 80, Pali-English Tiika Vis. 80, Pali-English **** Pali-English: . Vis 80: lakkha.naruupa.m pana nakutocijaata.m. kasmaa? na hi uppaadassa uppaado atthi, uppannassa ca paripaakabhedamatta.m itaradvaya.m. yampi ``ruupaayatana.m saddaayatana.m gandhaayatana.m rasaayatana.m pho.t.thabbaayatana.m aakaasadhaatu aapodhaatu ruupassa lahutaa, ruupassa mudutaa, ruupassa kamma~n~nataa, ruupassa upacayo, ruupassa santati, kaba.liikaaro aahaaro, ime dhammaa cittasamu.t.thaanaa''tiaadiisu (dha. sa. 1201) jaatiyaa kutocijaatatta.m anu~n~naata.m, ta.m pana ruupajanakapaccayaana.m kiccaanubhaavakkha.ne di.t.thattaati veditabba.m. ida.m taava ruupakkhandhe vitthaarakathaamukha.m. Tiika Vis 80; Lakkha.naruupa.m pana nakutocijaatanti kutocipi paccayato na jaata.m, As to the expression, matter as characteristic is called ³not born from anything², because they are not arisen from any cause... Katha.m paneta.m vi~n~naatabba.m lakkha.naruupa.m na jaayatiiti? How should it be understood that materiality as characteristic does not arise? Lakkha.naabhaavato. Because it is without that characteristic. Uppattimantaana.m hi ruupaayatanaadiina.m jaati-aadiini lakkha.naani vijjanti, na eva.m jaati-aadiina.m. In the texts about origination of visible object and so on, the characteristics of birth etc. are to be found, but not (the characteristics of) birth etc. itself. Tasmaa vi~n~naatabbameta.m jaati-aadiini na jaayantiiti.... Therefore, it should be known that arising etc, does not arise, etc. .. Tenaaha ³na hi uppaadassa uppaado atthi, uppannassa ca paripaakabhedamatta.m itaradvayan²ti, jaraamara.nanti attho. Therefore he said, ³Because there is no arising of arising, and the other two are the mere maturing and breakup of what has arisen², and this refers to old age and death. Tattha ³uppaado natthii²ti etena uppaadassa jaraamara.naabhaavamaaha.... Here, in this case, with the words, there is no arising, he spoke about the fact that old age and death do not arise.... N: the Tiika then explains the words of the Vis text: Though in the passage, 'The visible-data base, the sound base, .. (yampi..) where it is shown that it is allowable to say that a factor such as citta, when it originates a group of rupas, also originates the characteristic of arising that is bound up with that group. Text:Yadi eva.m katha.m ³jaraamara.na.m pa.ticcasamuppannan²ti (sa.m. ni. 2.20) vutta.m? Why did he say that old age and death have arisen dependent on a condition? Yasmaa pa.ticcasamuppannaana.m dhammaana.m paripaakabha"ngataaya tesu santesu honti, na asantesu. Because of the ripening and breaking up of the dhammas that have arisen dependent on conditions, when these occur, not when they do not occur. Na hi ajaata.m paripaccati, bhijjati vaa, tasmaa ta.m jaatipaccayata.m sandhaaya ³jaraamara.na.m pa.ticcasamuppannan²ti (sa.m. ni. 2.20) pariyaayena suttesu vutta.m. What is not born does not mature or break up, therefore, with reference to birth that is dependent on conditions he said, by way of the method of teaching in the suttas, ³old age and death have arisen in dependence on conditions.².... N: The Tiika concludes this section of Rupakkhandha by stating that what was not mentioned here with regard to birth in sensuous planes etc. by kamma-condition etc.,will be explained elsewhere in the teaching on the Dependent origination. Tiika: Iti ruupakkhandhe vitthaarakathaamukha.m. This is the section of the detailed explanation dealing with the materiality aggregate. ***** Nina. 33544 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon May 31, 2004 10:02am Subject: Re: [dsg] Phil: Re: Cetana (volition, intention) Dear Philip, A.Sujin gave an example to us: someone has the intention to give, it is kusala, but it is very weak. Thus, this cannot be called kusala kamma patha, a completed kusala action. After all he cannot give. We have to know the citta at that moment; is it kusala or akusala? Don't worry, there are also circumstances that one is unable to give money. Moreover there are other ways of generosity. Nina. op 31-05-2004 02:52 schreef Philip op plnao@j...: > For example, when I told Nina that I intended to send a donation to > the Dhamma Foundation to thank her for her books, but didn't, was the > intention itself kusala even though it wasn't followed through? That > is just one example. 33545 From: Date: Mon May 31, 2004 6:20am Subject: Re: [dsg] Phil, Near and far enemies of Brahma-Viharas Hi, Nina - In a message dated 5/31/04 1:05:24 PM Eastern Daylight Time, nilo@e... writes: > The sotapanna has eradicated jealousy, but not aversion. =================== I was under the impression that a sotapanna had eliminated the fetters of sceptical doubt, clinging to rules and rituals, and self-view. Apparently there is more. Could you provide a sutta source giving all the defilements uprooted at stream entry? With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 33546 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon May 31, 2004 10:02am Subject: Tiika Vis 80, no 1 (English) Tiika Vis 80, no 1 (English) Vis.80 80. But 'matter as characteristic' is called 'not born of anything'. Why? Because there is no arising of arising, and the other two are the mere maturing and breakup of what has arisen. Though in the passage, 'The visible-data base, the sound base, the odour base, the favour base, the tangible-data base, the space element, the water element, lightness of matter, malleability of matter, wieldiness of matter, growth of matter, continuity of matter, and physical food--these states are consciousness-originated' (cf. Dhs. 667) and so on, a state of birth [that is, growth] being born from somewhere can be understood as allowable since the point of view here is the moment when the conditions that are giving birth to the kinds of materiality are exercising their function. This, firstly, is the section of the detailed explanation dealing with the materiality aggregate. Remarks: As we have seen there are four rupas as characteristics: origination, continuity, decay and impermanence. These are inherent in all groups of rupa. Since they are characteristics, they are not originated by any of the four causes that originate rupas. Strictly speaking, there is no arising of arising, however, from another viewpoint it can be said (it is allowable as the Vis text states) that when kamma and the other three causes originate rupas, they also cause the arising (or birth) of the characteristics of origination and continuity which are bound up with the other rupas in a group. The Vis. enumerates the rupas that are originated by citta or as appropriate by the other causes, and includes here the two rupas of growth of matter, continuity of matter. These two are actually the origin or birth of rupa as we have seen. Continuity or development follows immediately upon growth, which is the first moment of a group of rupas. When we consider the moment that a cause such as citta begins to originate a group of rupas, it is allowable to see also the characteristics of origination and continuity inherent in a group of rupas as being caused by citta. Thus in that sense there is arising of arising. This cannot be said of decay and impermanence, since these manifest themselves after the moments of growth and development. In olden times this was an issue and we read about debates about this subject in the Expositor (II, p. 442, and also in the Co to the Abhidhammattha Sangaha, p. 243). We read in the Expositor: ²But in the ultimnate sense birth does not come into being. To one who is being born, the mere [fact of] rebirth comes into being. ... Maturity and breaking up do not get that common usage. And why? From their absence at the moment when the productive cause is powerful. for there is power to productive causes only at the moment of the production of a state to be produced; none subsequent to that...² We read also about a discussion regarding the sutta texts of the Dependent Origination. In the Suttas we read about birth, old age and death that arise dependent on conditions. Some people were doubting whether this text is not a contradicion of the fact that old age and death which are maturity and breaking up of what has arisen, do not arise from a cause. The Expositor states: ³In the Sutta the teaching is explanatory...² We read in the Co to the Abhidhammattha Sangaha (p. 243): It is also stated in the Expositor that birth, decay and death happen bound up with the bases (the rupas of solidity, the other four great Elements and the other rupas). When these rupas appear, birth, decay and death are revealed. From these discussions we learn that there are different methods of explanation (pariyaaya). Also with regard to other subjects there is reference to different methods of explanation, for example, the four kinds of aaharaa, nutrition, one being physical food, and three being mental. They can be explained by way of the Patthana (conditional relations) or by way of the Dependent origination. There are no contradictions, only different aspects are shown by means of different methods of teaching. Tiika Vis 80; As to the expression, matter as characteristic is called ³not born from anything², because they are not arisen from any cause... How should it be understood that materiality as characteristic does not arise? Because it is without that characteristic. N: It is itself the characteristic of arising etc. and therefore it does not have the characteristic of arising. In the texts about origination of visible object and so on, the characteristics of birth etc. are to be found, but not (the characteristics of) birth (arising) etc. itself. Therefore, it should be known that arising etc, does not arise, etc. .. N: Origination, being a characteristic, does not arise. Text: Therefore he said, ³Because there is no arising of arising, and the other two are the mere maturing and breakup of what has arisen², and this refers to old age and death. N: Old age and death can be taken in the conventional sense. But when it is used in the ultimate sense with reference to the characteristics of rupas, the decay and impermanence of groups of rupa are meant. Text: Here, in this case, with the words, there is no arising, he spoke about the fact that old age and death do not arise.... N: the Tiika then explains the words of the Vis text: Though in the passage, 'The visible-data base, the sound base, .. where it is shown that it is allowable to say that a factor such as citta, when it originates a group of rupas, also originates the characteristic of arising that is bound up with that group. Text: Why did he say that old age and death have arisen dependent on a condition? Because of the ripening and breaking up of the dhammas that have arisen dependent on conditions, when these occur, not when they do not occur. N: Here the method of explanation is the method of the Dependent Origination. When there is birth, there have to be decay and death. Tiika text: What is not born does not mature or break up, therefore, with reference to birth that is dependent on conditions he said, by way of the method of teaching in the suttas, ³old age and death have arisen in dependence on conditions.².... N: The Tiika concludes this section of Rupakkhandha by stating that what was not mentioned here with regard to birth in sensuous planes etc. by kamma-condition etc.,will be explained elsewhere in the teaching on the Dependent origination. Tiika: This is the section of the detailed explanation dealing with the materiality aggregate. ***** N: Concluding remarks: We are reminded here that all the rupas, the four great Elements and the derived rupas, originated by the four factors, have the characteristics of origin, continuation (development), decay and breaking up. Of all those rupas, visible object or colour is the only rupa that can be seen. All the other rupas are invisible. Visible object is a rupa that is present in each group of rupas, it is one of the inseparable rupas. Visible object or colour of the body is originated by kamma, citta, temperature or nutrition. We cling to visible object and it seems to last, but we should remember that also visible object arises and then falls away completely. No matter how solid the body may appear, the rupas that arise because of the appropriate conditions have to fall away. What is born, arisen from a cause, has to mature and has to break up. In this way we are reminded time and again that what we take for the body are only rupas that are impermanent, dukkha and non-self. **** Nina. 33547 From: Larry Date: Mon May 31, 2004 10:51am Subject: [dsg] Re: concentration and Panna --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Andrew (and Larry) - > It occurs to me, Larry, the standard presentation of clinging as being > a matter of > _________________________ > > > sensuous clinging (kámupádána), clinging to views (ditthupádána), clinging > > to mere rules and ritual (sílabbatupádána), clinging to personality-belief > > (atta-vádupádána) > ___________________________ > > is mainly directed at stream enterers or those close to stream entry, because > for stream enterers only sensuous clinging then remains as a fetter to be > abandoned or nearly so (plus significant weakening of ill will) in order for a > stream enterer to become a once returner. > > With metta, > Howard Hi Howard, Good point. Sounds to me that it will float. My thought was that clinging is far more conceptual as evidenced by the references to views (views, rites and rituals, and self view). Craving, on the other hand, is more visceral, elemental, basic; and in Dependent Arising it is directly related to feeling. Perhaps we could say these are two different ways of regarding the khandhas, as clung-to beliefs and as desire for continued pleasant feeling and discontinued unpleasant feeling. There is still an element of conceptuality in the latter, but more subtle. Continuing and discontinuing are eternalism and nihilism. Possibly upadana in dependent arising is similar to registration consciousness in citta process. The solidification and eternalisation of javana by conceptualizing it and depositing it in the bank of accumulations as a resource (or debt). Larry 33548 From: Larry Date: Mon May 31, 2004 11:23am Subject: Re: Tiika Vis 80, no 1 (English) Hi Nina, I think the commentator may have misunderstood this passage: "'The visible-data base, the sound base, the odour base, the flavour base, the tangible-data base, the space element, the water element, lightness of matter, malleability of matter, wieldiness of matter, growth of matter, continuity of matter, and physical food--these states are consciousness-originated' (cf. Dhs. 667)" These rupas are not consciousness originated but rather mind-door perceived rupas. We could say growth of kamma produced matter is, in a sense, produced by volitional consciousness insofar as kamma produced matter grows (arises and ceases). I don't know if nutriment is said to play a hand in growth. Larry 33549 From: Date: Mon May 31, 2004 7:56am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: concentration and Panna Hi, Larry - In a message dated 5/31/04 2:36:54 PM Eastern Daylight Time, LBIDD@w... writes: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > >Hi, Andrew (and Larry) - > > > It occurs to me, Larry, the standard presentation of > clinging as being > >a matter of > >_________________________ > > > >>sensuous clinging (kámupádána), clinging to views > (ditthupádána), > clinging > >>to mere rules and ritual (sílabbatupádána), clinging to > personality-belief > >>(atta-vádupádána) > >___________________________ > > > >is mainly directed at stream enterers or those close to stream > entry, because > >for stream enterers only sensuous clinging then remains as a fetter > to be > >abandoned or nearly so (plus significant weakening of ill will) in > order for a > >stream enterer to become a once returner. > > > >With metta, > >Howard > > Hi Howard, > > Good point. Sounds to me that it will float. My thought was that > clinging is far more conceptual as evidenced by the references to > views (views, rites and rituals, and self view). Craving, on the > other hand, is more visceral, elemental, basic; and in Dependent > Arising it is directly related to feeling. Perhaps we could say these > are two different ways of regarding the khandhas, as clung-to beliefs > and as desire for continued pleasant feeling and discontinued > unpleasant feeling. There is still an element of conceptuality in the > latter, but more subtle. Continuing and discontinuing are eternalism > and nihilism. > --------------------------------- Howard: I agree with clinging as more strongly involving conceptualization. It seems to me that it is largely conditioned by cognitive proliferation. ------------------------------- > > Possibly upadana in dependent arising is similar to registration > consciousness in citta process. The solidification and eternalisation > of javana by conceptualizing it and depositing it in the bank of > accumulations as a resource (or debt). > > Larry > ======================= With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 33550 From: robmoult Date: Mon May 31, 2004 2:50pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Phil, Near and far enemies of Brahma-Viharas Hi Howard, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > In a message dated 5/31/04 1:05:24 PM Eastern Daylight Time, nilo@e... > writes: > > > The sotapanna has eradicated jealousy, but not aversion. > =================== > I was under the impression that a sotapanna had eliminated the fetters > of sceptical doubt, clinging to rules and rituals, and self-view. Apparently > there is more. Could you provide a sutta source giving all the defilements > uprooted at stream entry? Here is a list of akusala cittas eliminated at the path cittas. Ignorance ========= The Sotapanna eradicates ignorance associated with doubt. The Arahant eradicates ignorance associated with restlessness. Shamelessness / Recklessness / Restlessness =========================================== The Arahant eliminates shamelessness, recklessness and restlessness. Greed ===== The Sotapanna eliminates greed associated with wrong view. The Sakadagami weakens clinging to sense data. The Anagami eliminates clinging to sense data. The Arahant eliminates clinging to existence. Wrong View ========== The Sotapanna eliminates wrong view. Conceit ======= The Arhant eliminates conceit. Hatred ====== The Sakadagami weakens hatred. The Anagami eliminates hatred. Jealousy / Selfishness ================== The Sotapanna eliminates jealousy and selfishness. Remorse ======= The Sotapanna eliminates all remorse associated with akusala kamma. The Anagami eliminates all remaining remorse. Sloth / Torpor ============== The Arahant eliminates sloth and torpor. Doubt ===== The Sotapanna eliminates doubt. The fetters map into the akusala cittas as follows: - Ignorance: eliminated in stages as mentioned above - Restlessness: eliminated by Arahant - Greed: eliminated in stages as mentioned above - Wrong View: eliminated by Sotapanna - Conceit: eliminated by Arahant - Hatred: eliminated in stages as mentioned above - Jealousy: eliminated by Sotapanna - Selfishness: eliminated by Sotapanna - Doubt: eliminated by Sotapanna The source in the Visuddhimagga. Metta, Rob M :-) 33551 From: Date: Mon May 31, 2004 11:56am Subject: Re: [dsg] 'Birth is suffering, old age is suffering, death is suffering....' In a message dated 5/30/04 3:34:43 PM Pacific Daylight Time, LBIDD@w... writes: The cause of dukkha is tanha, sensual craving, craving for existence, and craving for non-existence. Upadana is sensuous clinging, clinging to views, clinging to rules and rituals, and clinging to personality belief. It appears that the only thing the two have in common is sense pleasure. Why is there a difference and how do we resolve this difference ==== Larry, I haven't been following this thread but did notice the above. In the Visud. (I think), tanha is described as similar to reaching out to a glass of water. Upadana is described as similar to holding tightly to the glass. I have not seen a distinction made between the object of tanha and the object of upadana as you have made above. In the Cycle of Dependent Origination, tanha is followed by upadana without a change of object. Upadana can refer to sense objects. jack 33552 From: Philip Date: Mon May 31, 2004 4:32pm Subject: Monk, bail out this boat... Hello all No question to ask really - just wanted to share a passge from the Dhammapada that really resounded for me this morning. "Monk, bail out this boat. It will take you lightly when bailed. Having cut through passion, aversion, you go from there to Unbinding." (XXV 369 - B Thanissaro) I carry so much baggage - so much unnecessary baggage. By becoming aware of realities of the moment, I can gain a much better understanding of how much unnessary baggage I am carrying and take steps towards liberation. I think I will sing this verse with my guitar, to the tune of "Michael Row the Boat ashore." What is the Pali word closest in spirit to "Hallelulah?" (Actually, now that I ask that, I'd kind of like to know. What word would arise to capture the especially clear feeling of gratitude I have this morning to the Buddha for his teaching? Maybe "Hallelulah" would do! Sarah used a word to indicate sharing in the kusala of others joyfully, but now I forget what it was... Metta, Phil p.s Thank you, Nina, to all those responses to the questions I asked yesterday. I will be looking at them tonight or tomorrow. 33553 From: robmoult Date: Mon May 31, 2004 5:10pm Subject: Re: Monk, bail out this boat... Hi Phil, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Philip" wrote: > What word would arise to capture the especially clear > feeling of gratitude I have this morning to the Buddha for his > teaching? Maybe "Hallelulah" would do! Sarah used a word to indicate > sharing in the kusala of others joyfully, but now I forget what it > was... Two Pali words come to mind: - "Anumodana" is used on DSG from time to time and has a sense of sharing of great merit; this is probably the word that Sarah used - "Sadhu" repeated three times is used in Sri Lankan temples and its meaning is between "Amen" and "Halleluiah"; it means "well done!" Metta, Rob M :-) PS: I share in your feeling this morning! Reading your post was a condition to strengthen this feeling (the power of Mudita). 33554 From: Date: Mon May 31, 2004 2:08pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Phil, Near and far enemies of Brahma-Viharas Hi, Rob - In a message dated 5/31/04 5:51:24 PM Eastern Daylight Time, rob.moult@j... writes: > > Here is a list of akusala cittas eliminated at the path cittas. > > > > The source in the Visuddhimagga. > ======================= Thank you very much for the quick and detailed reply, Rob. I wonder whether anyone knows of a sutta source as support for this, or, lacking that, an argument for deducing what is in addition to uprooting of sceptical doubt, clinging to rules and rituals, and self view? With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 33555 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon May 31, 2004 9:44pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Phil, Near and far enemies of Brahma-Viharas Hi Howard, Rob M gave the list just now. Dhammasangani § 1113, among the ten fetters or samyojanas. For sutta references, I have to look all over, but no time now. Nina op 31-05-2004 19:20 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: > >> The sotapanna has eradicated jealousy, but not aversion. > =================== > I was under the impression that a sotapanna had eliminated the fetters > of sceptical doubt, clinging to rules and rituals, and self-view. Apparently > there is more. Could you provide a sutta source giving all the defilements > uprooted at stream entry? 33556 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon May 31, 2004 9:44pm Subject: Perseverance in Dhamma, Ch 3, no 4 Perseverance in Dhamma, Ch 3, no 4 We read in the ³Kindred Sayings²(V, Kindred Sayings about the Truths, Ch 4, § 4, Turban) that the Buddha asked what should be done if one¹s turban or head is on fire. The answer was that in order to extinguish the fire one should make extra efforts, and have mindfulness and attention. The Buddha said: Well, monks, letting alone, paying no heed to, the blazing turban or head, for the comprehension as they really are, of the four not penetrated Ariyan Truths, one must put forth extra desire, effort, endeavour, exertion, impulse, mindfulness and attention....² This sutta can remind us that we should not delay the development of understanding of all realities arising at this moment. Acharn Sujin said that lobha is attached to everything and that we are always in danger. There is as it were fire on our heads. For the development of right understanding we do not need to go to a quiet place. We may die before we reach that place. Realities such as seeing, hearing and thinking are the same no matter where we are. All day long dhammas appear through the five sense-doors and through the mind-door, one at a time. Through the eyes visible object is experienced, through the ears sound, through the nose odour, through the tongue flavour, through the bodysense hardness, softness, heat, cold, motion or pressure. The realities that appear exhibit their own characteristics. They arise dependent on many different conditions and nobody can cause their arising. Through satipatthåna one will understand the nature of anattå of realities. During the sessions we discussed samatha and vipassanå. Both of them are ways of mental development, bhåvana, and they cannot be developed without sati and paññå, sati-sampajañña. However, the method and aim of samatha and vipassanå are different. We read in the ³Discourse on Expunging²(M. I, no 8, Sallekhasutta) that the Buddha said to Cunda: ³These, Cunda, are the roots of trees, these are empty places. Meditate, Cunda; do not be slothful; be not remorseful later. This is our instruction to you.² In Pali the word ³jhåyathå² is used, that can be translated as contemplate. The Commentary to this sutta, the ³Papañcasúdaní², explains that there are two meanings of jhåna: contemplation on the thirtyeight objects of samatha (aramma.núpanijjhåna), and contemplation on the characteristics (lakkhanúpanijjhåna), beginning with impermanence, with reference to the khandhas, the sense-fields (åyatanas) and so on. The Commentary states: ³It is said, develop samatha and vipassanå. Do not be slothful; be not remorseful later.² **** Nina. 33557 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon May 31, 2004 9:44pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Tiika Vis 80, no 1 (English) Hi Larry, op 31-05-2004 20:23 schreef Larry op LBIDD@w...: > I think the commentator may have misunderstood this passage: N: I am always very, very hesitant to say this ;-)) L: "'The visible-data base, the sound base, the odour base, the flavour > base, the tangible-data base, the space element, the water element, > lightness of matter, malleability of matter, wieldiness of matter, > growth of matter, continuity of matter, and physical food--these > states are consciousness-originated' (cf. Dhs. 667)" > > These rupas are not consciousness originated but rather mind-door > perceived rupas. N: Two different matters: what is originated and what is perceived through mind-door. We have to think of the four factors that originate. Here, lightness etc are only originated by citta, temperature and nutrition, as we learnt before. The others of this list above are originated by all four. Remember: visible object or colour of rupas of the body is originated by all four. Then see the discussion as to growth and continuity, that I rendered. These, in a sense can, be produced by all four if we think of the moment the four factors set them in motion. Nina. 33558 From: buddhatrue Date: Tue Jun 1, 2004 0:25am Subject: Re: Phil, Near and far enemies of Brahma-Viharas --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" wrote: > Hi Howard, > The fetters map into the akusala cittas as follows: > - Ignorance: eliminated in stages as mentioned above > - Restlessness: eliminated by Arahant > - Greed: eliminated in stages as mentioned above > - Wrong View: eliminated by Sotapanna > - Conceit: eliminated by Arahant > - Hatred: eliminated in stages as mentioned above > - Jealousy: eliminated by Sotapanna > - Selfishness: eliminated by Sotapanna > - Doubt: eliminated by Sotapanna > > > The source in the Visuddhimagga. > > Metta, > Rob M :-) Friend Rob M (and Howard), I am not sure that the Visuddhimagga is correct about this matter of jealousy being completely eliminated at the Sotapanna stage. Is this information found in a sutta? From my understanding, the root of jealousy is desire and only an arahant has eliminated desire. For example, in DN 21 "Sakka's Questions", the Buddha explains to the king of the devas, Sakka, that the cause of all the hate and violence in the various world systems is jealousy and avarice. He further explains that jealousy and avarice are caused by liking and disliking; liking and disliking are caused by desire; desire is caused by thinking; thinking is caused by the tendency to mental proliferation; mental proliferation leads to random thinking which then leads to desire. The Buddha further explains that the only way to eliminate this sequence is to foster thinking which leads to wholesome mental states, not unwholesome mental states. I could be wrong but this implies to me that jealousy is eliminated only in the arahant. Sure, the Sotapanna may have less of a degree of jealousy, just as he/she has less of a degree of anger and hate, but I find it hard to believe that jealousy would be completely eliminated at the Sotapanna stage. What do you think? Metta, James 33559 From: Sukinderpal Singh Narula Date: Tue Jun 1, 2004 1:11am Subject: Conditioned? Concentration? ( was Re: I have a wonderful wife Hi Ken (and Phil), Most of my internet time these past few days was spent in looking for a good hotel to stay during a five day holiday starting tomorrow. So I am quite behind in my reading and will be even more so from now. You said: > That's a good point you make: If meditation is something we do > naturally, as part of our daily routine, does that preclude it from > being a "superstitious rite or ritual?" Is wrong view necessarily > involved? Many otherwise-hard-headed dsg people say it is OK; there > is not necessarily wrong view. But other forthright folk, Sukin for > one, say it is a sign of wrong view. (Hope I haven't got you wrong > there, Sukin.) No Ken, you haven't got me wrong. However I have made the suggestion to the effect that, if anyone was `meditating' as a daily activity but not connecting this with any idea that it was `practice' according to dhamma, then it was O.K. Then the person could have satipatthana during the meditation, instead of meditating to have satipatthana! ;-) So yes, the very idea of developing sati and panna by means of `formal practice' is in my opinion, wrong view. Previously, I thought that someone might have the accumulations for jhana and doing so he could at the same time develop vipassana. But later I came to question the `self view' possibly involved in such ideas. A person may practice jhana [though it is unlikely that a layperson today could do it], however if his understanding of the Buddha's teaching on satipatthana is indeed correct, then there is no need to distinguish jhana practice from normal everyday activity with regard to this anyway. If one did, then it seems that he is still tying jhana practice to vipassana in a way suggesting that without the former, the latter is unlikely to be fruitful. This *is* wrong view, because there is no direct connection between jhana and any kind of concentration practice with the development of vipassana panna. Besides, from theory we know that if there is no `sati', then the citta is akusala, and this accumulates. We learn about how wrong view evolves from atta view and how every time there is atta sanna and no sati, then self view is possibly being encouraged. When this atta sanna as in `sitting in a particular *posture*', `shutting *one's* eyes', `concentrating on *one's* nostril or belly', `mentally *scanning one's body from head to toe*', *labeling*, is being encouraged all the time (after all one must keep on `intending' to maintain such physical actions during the time that the so called practice is taking place), then how can Rt. View arise? But `self' does fool itself all the time, and would even use the Teachings wrongly quoting out of context to justify doing what it is doing. I guess this is why the Teachings caution us about the `Cheating Dhammas' and about walking the `Wrong Path'. There is in fact a Sutta, `Patipada Sutta' (I can't find it), where supposedly, even all jhana practice is considered `wrong path'. > I go along with Sukin. If meditation is something more than mental > relaxation, then it must entail the view of a controlling self. > Sorry Phil, we have spoken. :-) And yet, when we realize that the cause of any mental exhaustion is one's own akusala cittas and these are known more, then even this `relaxation' will be seen as an act of accumulating more akusala (lobha) and therefore not to be encouraged. ;-) Metta, Sukin 33560 From: Sukinderpal Singh Narula Date: Tue Jun 1, 2004 1:11am Subject: [dsg] Re: concentration and Panna Hi Nina (and Howard), > N: This is very complex and we would have to study each sutta. The one you > quoted could refer to someone who was skilled in jhana and then used jhana > as proximate cause for insight. I find these suttas difficult, I am inclined > to think: concentration under what heading or according to what method of > teaching. When I read: develop concentration, and that it leads to realizing > the four noble Truths I am inclined to read this with vipassana panna > implied. I can ask Sukin to bring it up in Bgk. I will try to remember to ask. However, this last Saturday, I was curious why jhana was considered `Samma Samadhi' and not just `Kusala' or perhaps `Mahakusala' Samadhi? K. Sujin said that it was because jhana was a *development* of a kind of panna from samatha. I gather that it involves seeing the danger in `sense objects' and recognizing increasingly more subtle akusala!? This may or may not be relevant to your discussion, I am not sure. Metta, Sukin. 33561 From: Sarah Date: Tue Jun 1, 2004 1:33am Subject: Re: [dsg] Phil, Near and far enemies of Brahma-Viharas Hi Howard, James, Nina, RobM & All, With regard to the eradication of the fetters (samyojana), I think there is a wealth of detail in the Vatthupana Sutta, MN7 (The Simile of the Cloth) and commentary notes as provided by Nyanaponika in a wheel publication. It’s now on line too: http://www.mahindarama.com/e-tipitaka/mn-7.htm Let me just selectively run through and quote a few relevant passages (but recommend reading all the sutta and notes - too long for this post). I hope others provide other suttas with more detail for you too. ***** >1. Thus have I heard. Once the Blessed One was staying at Savatthi, in Jeta's Grove, Anathapindika's monastery. There he addressed the monks thus: "Monks." -- "Venerable sir," they replied. The Blessed One said this: 2. "Monks, suppose a cloth were stained and dirty, and a dyer dipped it in some dye or other, whether blue or yellow or red or pink, it would take the dye badly and be impure in colour. And why is that? Because the cloth was not clean. So too, monks, when the mind is defiled,[1] an unhappy destination [in a future existence] may be expected. "Monks, suppose a cloth were clean and bright, and a dyer dipped it in some dye or other, whether blue or yellow or red or pink, it would take the dye well and be pure in colour. And why is that? Because the cloth was clean. So too, monks, when the mind is undefiled, a happy destination [in a future existence] may be expected. 3. "And what, monks, are the defilements of the mind?[2] (1) Covetousness and unrighteous greed are a defilement of the mind; (2) ill will is a defilement of the mind; (3) anger is a defilement of the mind; (4) hostility...(5) denigration...(6) domineering...(7) envy...(8) jealousy...(9) hypocrisy...(10) fraud...(11) obstinacy...(12) presumption...(13) conceit...(14) arrogance...(15) vanity...(16) negligence is a defilement of the mind.[3] 4. "Knowing, monks, covetousness and unrighteous greed to be a defilement of the mind, the monk abandons them.[4] Knowing ill will to be a defilement of the mind, he abandons it. Knowing anger to be a defilement of the mind, he abandons it. Knowing hostility to be a defilement of the mind, he abandons it. Knowing denigration to be a defilement of the mind, he abandons it. Knowing domineering to be a defilement of the mind, he abandons it. Knowing envy to be a defilement of the mind, he abandons it. Knowing jealousy to be a defilement of the mind, he abandons it. Knowing hypocrisy to be a defilement of the mind, he abandons it. Knowing fraud to be a defilement of the mind, he abandons it. Knowing obstinacy to be a defilement of the mind, he abandons it. Knowing presumption to be a defilement of the mind, he abandons it. Knowing conceit to be a defilement of the mind, he abandons it. Knowing arrogance to be a defilement of the mind, he abandons it. Knowing vanity to be a defilement of the mind, he abandons it. Knowing negligence to be a defilement of the mind, he abandons it. 5. "When in the monk who thus knows that covetousness and unrighteous greed are a defilement of the mind, this covetousness and unrighteous greed have been abandoned; when in him who thus knows that ill will is a defilement of the mind, this ill will has been abandoned;...when in him who thus knows that negligence is a defilement of the mind, this negligence has been abandoned -- [5] 6. -- he thereupon gains unwavering confidence in the Buddha[6] thus: 'Thus indeed is the Blessed One: he is accomplished, fully enlightened, endowed with [clear] vision and [virtuous] conduct, sublime, knower of the worlds, the incomparable guide of men who are tractable, the teacher of gods and men, enlightened and blessed.' < <.....> >Notes <....> 3. The Sixteen Defilements of Mind: 1. abhijjha-visama-lobha, covetousness and unrighteous greed 2. byapada, ill will 3. kodha, anger 4. upanaha, hostility or malice 5. makkha, denigration or detraction; contempt 6. palasa, domineering or presumption 7. issa, envy 8. macchariya, jealousy, or avarice; selfishness 9. maya, hypocrisy or deceit 10. satheyya, fraud 11. thambha, obstinacy, obduracy 12. sarambha, presumption or rivalry; impetuosity 13. mana, conceit 14. atimana, arrogance, haughtiness 15. mada, vanity or pride 16. pamada, negligence or heedlessness; in social behavior, this leads to lack of consideration. The defilements (3) to (16) appear frequently as a group in the discourses, e.g., in Majjh. 3; while in Majjh. 8 (reproduced in this publication) No. 15 is omitted. A list of seventeen defilements appears regularly in each last discourse of Books 3 to 11 of the Anguttara Nikaya, which carry the title Ragapeyyala, the Repetitive Text on Greed (etc.). In these texts of the Anguttara Nikaya, the first two defilements in the above list are called greed (lobha) and hate (dosa), to which delusion (moha) is added; all the fourteen other defilements are identical with the above list. [Go back] 4. <...> According to the Comy., the sixteen defilements are finally abandoned by the noble paths (or stages of sanctity) in the following order: "By the path of Stream-entry (sotapatti-magga) are abandoned: (5) denigration, (6) domineering, (7) envy, (8) jealousy, (9) hypocrisy, (10) fraud. "By the path of Non-returning (anagami-magga): (2) ill will, (3) anger, (4) malice, (16) negligence. "By the path of Arahatship (arahatta-magga): (1) covetousness and unrighteous greed, (11) obstinacy, (12) presumption, (13) conceit, (14) arrogance, (15) vanity." If, in the last group of terms, covetousness is taken in a restricted sense as referring only to the craving for the five sense objects, it is finally abandoned by the path of Non-returning; and this is according to Comy. the meaning intended here. All greed, however, including the hankering after fine material and immaterial existence, is eradicated only on the path of Arahatship; hence the classification under the latter in the list above. Comy. repeatedly stresses that wherever in our text "abandoning" is mentioned, reference is to the Non-returner (anagami); for also in the case of defilements overcome on Stream-entry (see above), the states of mind which produce those defilements are eliminated only by the path of Non-returning. [Go back] 5. Comy. emphasizes the connection of this paragraph with the following, saying that the statements on each of the sixteen defilements should be connected with the next' paragraphs, e.g., "when in him...ill will has been abandoned, he thereupon gains unwavering confidence..." Hence the grammatical construction of the original Pali passage -- though rather awkward in English -- has been retained in this translation. The disciple's direct experience of being freed of this or that defilement becomes for him a living test of his former still imperfectly proven trust in the Buddha, Dhamma and Sangha. Now this trust has become a firm conviction, an unshakable confidence, based on experience. [Go back] 6. "Unwavering confidence" (aveccappasada). Comy.: "unshakable and immutable trust." Confidence of that nature is not attained before Stream-entry because only at that stage is the fetter of sceptical doubt (vicikiccha-samyojana) finally eliminated. Unwavering confidence in the Buddha, Dhamma and Sangha are three of four characteristic qualities of a Stream-winner (sotapaññassa angani); the fourth is unbroken morality, which may be taken to be implied in Sec. 9 of our discourse referring to the relinquishment of the defilements. [Go back] < ***** Metta, Sarah p.s You might like to also look at these links from Nyantiloka’s dictionary: http://www.palikanon.com/english/wtb/a/ariya_puggala.htm http://www.palikanon.com/english/wtb/s_t/samyojana.htm ====== 33562 From: Sarah Date: Tue Jun 1, 2004 2:33am Subject: Re: [dsg] Starting the journey to nibbana ( 01 ) Dear Htoo, --- htootintnaing wrote: > PS: I may possibly stay domant for a while. ..... S: I’m glad the conditions brought another result;-) I’ve greatly appreciated your Dhamma Thread and the way you’ve explained and shared the Abhidhamma in these posts like in 008 on kamma, vipaka and kiriya cittas. There are one or two topics I may come back to later if I have time. Anumodana! Metta, Sarah As an after-thought and a quick look through, I’d like to add a couple of comments as you’ve mentioned before you like to have them. I’m a little behind with my reading so there may be more later. You may wish to review this paragraph from Starting the Journey to Nibbana 01: H: >Arahats each go to the state called nibbana. Nibbana is absolute peace as there is no fire of kilesa or defilement. Before they go into that state they all had to pass the last gate called arahatta cuti citta. All arahats passed this gate. This gate is the boundry. Arahats all go through their last series of cittas called arahatta phala citta.< I also found the passage Jon picked up on rather misleading, but I’ll leave that to the two of you to sort out;-). Oh, one more in Dhamma threads 012, 013 and 014 on bhavanga and vithi cittas... 012 “All vithi cittas are also part of life (bhavanga)”[S:???] 013 “In a given time there is no sense impression or no object citta.”[S:???] 014 “....when bhavanga cittas have passed away while arammana or sense impression has appeared”[S:???] [S: it sounds like bhavanga cittas don’t have an arammana]. 014 “Normally a life starts with patisandhi and ends with cuti. In between is filled with all bhavanga cittas”.[S:???] “But depending on kamma vipaka cittas have to arise as vithi citta”. [I think you might stress many different conditions] ======================== 33563 From: Sarah Date: Tue Jun 1, 2004 3:11am Subject: Re: [dsg] Tiika Vis 80, no 1 (English) Dear Nina, Thank you so much for providing all this detail. I need time to absorb it and look at references too. --- nina van gorkom wrote: > Tiika Vis 80, no 1 (English) > > Vis.80 > 80. But 'matter as characteristic' is called 'not born of anything'. > Why? Because there is no arising of arising, and the other two are the > mere maturing and breakup of what has arisen. <...> S: I’m thinking that this and your following comments and references are of relevance to the discussion on ‘birth’ as dukkha and the comments I gave from the Sammohavinodani. .... > > Remarks: > As we have seen there are four rupas as characteristics: origination, > continuity, decay and impermanence. These are inherent in all groups of > rupa. Since they are > characteristics, they are not originated by any of the four causes that > originate rupas. Strictly speaking, there is no arising of arising, > however, > from another viewpoint it can be said (it is allowable as the Vis text > states) that when kamma and the other three causes originate rupas, they > also cause the arising (or birth) of the characteristics of origination > and > continuity which are bound up with the other rupas in a group. .... S: In the Sammohavinodani 452 it gives many meanings of jaati (birth) in different contexts. In the context of the First Noble Truth, it gives: “Here, however, this is appropriate in respect of the aggregates of first production with their modes [vikaaresu]. Therefore jaati is by way of being born; here it is the peculiarity of their nature. Sa~njaati ‘coming to birth’ is by the act of coming to birth.” I’m inclined to think the Vism and Tika references here may be relevant, though of course they are only referring to the vikaara rupas here as characteristics of rupas. As it says, ‘Strictly speaking, there is no arising of arising’. I don’t wish to push this too far...... ..... <...> S: The comments from the other texts were very interesting: ..... > We read in the Co to the Abhidhammattha Sangaha (p. 243): ancients have said: > ŒIn the text [of the Abhidhamma] the generation of birth from some cause > is > [stated] from a particular standpoint (pariyaayato); since in these > three > [birth, decay, impermanence] the intrinsic nature of conditioned things > is > [found], they have been said to be conditioned.1 > It is also stated in > the > Expositor that birth, decay and death happen bound up with the bases > (the > rupas of solidity, the other four great Elements and the other rupas). > When > these rupas appear, birth, decay and death are revealed. > From these discussions we learn that there are different methods of > explanation (pariyaaya). <...> > Tiika Vis 80; > As to the expression, matter as characteristic is called 3not born from > anything2, because they are not arisen from any cause... > How should it be understood that materiality as characteristic does not > arise? > Because it is without that characteristic. > N: It is itself the characteristic of arising etc. and therefore it does > not > have the characteristic of arising. > In the texts about origination of visible object and so on, the > characteristics of birth etc. are to be found, but not (the > characteristics > of) birth (arising) etc. itself. > Therefore, it should be known that arising etc, does not arise, etc. .. > > N: Origination, being a characteristic, does not arise. .... S: there is a real wealth of detail in the Tiika passages here. Extremely profound and precious imho;-). Metta and anumodana. Sarah p.s. You mentioned a short trip - I hope you have good weather and a nice break from the computer. ================= 33564 From: Date: Tue Jun 1, 2004 0:22am Subject: Re: [dsg] Phil, Near and far enemies of Brahma-Viharas Hi, Nina - In a message dated 6/1/04 1:31:42 AM Eastern Daylight Time, nilo@e... writes: > Hi Howard, > Rob M gave the list just now. Dhammasangani § 1113, among the ten fetters or > samyojanas. For sutta references, I have to look all over, but no time now. > Nina > ====================== I can well understand that this wouldn't be readily available - the suttas are many and dispersed. Thank you for giving the Dhammasangani reference. Inasmuch as the commentaries are not Buddha word, and inasmuch as I don't have full certainty that the Abhidhamma Pitaka isn't a later, synoptic, systematic codification of the Buddhadhamma, when I come across something that seems to go beyond what is in the suttas, and not just in explanatory detail but in the items included, I am inclined to seek sutta sources for it or to seek an explanation of the reasoning that led to it. This is why I originally asked for sutta references and why I pushed a bit more in that direction after Rob's reply. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 33565 From: Date: Tue Jun 1, 2004 0:49am Subject: Re: [dsg] Phil, Near and far enemies of Brahma-Viharas Hi, Sarah (and Rob, Nina, James, and all) - Thank you for the wealth of information provided in the following post of yours. I do have a couple negative comments on the material as regards my specific question. One of these is that the sutta itself says nothing about ariyan stages - only the commentary does. Secondly, the commentary apparently contradicts itself: One finds "By the path of Stream-entry (sotapatti-magga) are abandoned: (5) denigration, (6) domineering, (7) envy, (8) jealousy, (9) hypocrisy, (10) fraud." On the other hand, one also finds "Comy. repeatedly stresses that wherever in our text "abandoning" is mentioned, reference is to the Non-returner (anagami); for also in the case of defilements overcome on Stream-entry (see above), the states of mind which produce those defilements are eliminated only by the path of Non-returning." And, indeed the sutta speaks of *abandoning* jealousy. So, I don't see how this material settles the issue. Also, in Nyanatiloka's dictionary, as referenced by you, I found the following: _________________________ (I) Through the path of Stream-winning (sotápatti-magga) one 'becomes' free (whereas in realizing the fruition, one 'is' free) from the first 3 fetters ( samyojana) which bind beings to existence in the sensuous sphere, to wit: (1) personality-belief (sakkáya-ditthi; s. ditthi), (2) skeptical doubt (vicikicchá), (3) attachment to mere rules and rituals (sÃlabbata-parámása; s. upádána). (II) Through the path of Once-return (sakadágámi-magga) one becomes nearly free from the 4th and 5th fetters, to wit: (4) sensuous craving (káma-cchanda = káma-rága; s. rága), (5) ill-will (vyápáda = dosa, s. múla). -------------------------------------------- Inasmuch as kama-raga and dosa are not even fully abandoned at the stage of non-returning, it strikes me as implausible that jealousy, and obvious child of both sensuous craving and ill will, and probably a variety of ill will itself, is normally vanquished in a stream enterer. With metta, Howard In a message dated 6/1/04 4:34:01 AM Eastern Daylight Time, sarahdhhk@y... writes: > > Hi Howard, James, Nina, RobM &All, > > With regard to the eradication of the fetters (samyojana), I think there > is a wealth of detail in the Vatthupana Sutta, MN7 (The Simile of the > Cloth) and commentary notes as provided by Nyanaponika in a wheel > publication. It’s now on line too: > http://www.mahindarama.com/e-tipitaka/mn-7.htm > > Let me just selectively run through and quote a few relevant passages (but > recommend reading all the sutta and notes - too long for this post). > > I hope others provide other suttas with more detail for you too. > ***** > >1. Thus have I heard. Once the Blessed One was staying at Savatthi, in > Jeta's Grove, Anathapindika's monastery. There he addressed the monks > thus: "Monks." -- "Venerable sir," they replied. The Blessed One said > this: > > 2. "Monks, suppose a cloth were stained and dirty, and a dyer dipped it in > some dye or other, whether blue or yellow or red or pink, it would take > the dye badly and be impure in colour. And why is that? Because the cloth > was not clean. So too, monks, when the mind is defiled,[1] an unhappy > destination [in a future existence] may be expected. > > "Monks, suppose a cloth were clean and bright, and a dyer dipped it in > some dye or other, whether blue or yellow or red or pink, it would take > the dye well and be pure in colour. And why is that? Because the cloth was > clean. So too, monks, when the mind is undefiled, a happy destination [in > a future existence] may be expected. > > 3. "And what, monks, are the defilements of the mind?[2] (1) Covetousness > and unrighteous greed are a defilement of the mind; (2) ill will is a > defilement of the mind; (3) anger is a defilement of the mind; (4) > hostility...(5) denigration...(6) domineering...(7) envy...(8) > jealousy...(9) hypocrisy...(10) fraud...(11) obstinacy...(12) > presumption...(13) conceit...(14) arrogance...(15) vanity...(16) > negligence is a defilement of the mind.[3] > > 4. "Knowing, monks, covetousness and unrighteous greed to be a defilement > of the mind, the monk abandons them.[4] Knowing ill will to be a > defilement of the mind, he abandons it. Knowing anger to be a defilement > of the mind, he abandons it. Knowing hostility to be a defilement of the > mind, he abandons it. Knowing denigration to be a defilement of the mind, > he abandons it. Knowing domineering to be a defilement of the mind, he > abandons it. Knowing envy to be a defilement of the mind, he abandons it. > Knowing jealousy to be a defilement of the mind, he abandons it. Knowing > hypocrisy to be a defilement of the mind, he abandons it. Knowing fraud to > be a defilement of the mind, he abandons it. Knowing obstinacy to be a > defilement of the mind, he abandons it. Knowing presumption to be a > defilement of the mind, he abandons it. Knowing conceit to be a defilement > of the mind, he abandons it. Knowing arrogance to be a defilement of the > mind, he abandons it. Knowing vanity to be a defilement of the mind, he > abandons it. Knowing negligence to be a defilement of the mind, he > abandons it. > > 5. "When in the monk who thus knows that covetousness and unrighteous > greed are a defilement of the mind, this covetousness and unrighteous > greed have been abandoned; when in him who thus knows that ill will is a > defilement of the mind, this ill will has been abandoned;...when in him > who thus knows that negligence is a defilement of the mind, this > negligence has been abandoned -- [5] > > 6. -- he thereupon gains unwavering confidence in the Buddha[6] thus: > 'Thus indeed is the Blessed One: he is accomplished, fully enlightened, > endowed with [clear] vision and [virtuous] conduct, sublime, knower of the > worlds, the incomparable guide of men who are tractable, the teacher of > gods and men, enlightened and blessed.' < > <.....> > >Notes > <....> > > 3. The Sixteen Defilements of Mind: > > 1. abhijjha-visama-lobha, covetousness and unrighteous greed > 2. byapada, ill will > 3. kodha, anger > 4. upanaha, hostility or malice > 5. makkha, denigration or detraction; contempt > 6. palasa, domineering or presumption > 7. issa, envy > 8. macchariya, jealousy, or avarice; selfishness > 9. maya, hypocrisy or deceit > 10. satheyya, fraud > 11. thambha, obstinacy, obduracy > 12. sarambha, presumption or rivalry; impetuosity > 13. mana, conceit > 14. atimana, arrogance, haughtiness > 15. mada, vanity or pride > 16. pamada, negligence or heedlessness; in social behavior, this leads to > lack of consideration. > The defilements (3) to (16) appear frequently as a group in the > discourses, e.g., in Majjh. 3; while in Majjh. 8 (reproduced in this > publication) No. 15 is omitted. A list of seventeen defilements appears > regularly in each last discourse of Books 3 to 11 of the Anguttara Nikaya, > which carry the title Ragapeyyala, the Repetitive Text on Greed (etc.). In > these texts of the Anguttara Nikaya, the first two defilements in the > above list are called greed (lobha) and hate (dosa), to which delusion > (moha) is added; all the fourteen other defilements are identical with the > above list. [Go back] > > 4. <...> > According to the Comy., the sixteen defilements are finally abandoned by > the noble paths (or stages of sanctity) in the following order: > > "By the path of Stream-entry (sotapatti-magga) are abandoned: (5) > denigration, (6) domineering, (7) envy, (8) jealousy, (9) hypocrisy, (10) > fraud. > > "By the path of Non-returning (anagami-magga): (2) ill will, (3) anger, > (4) malice, (16) negligence. > > "By the path of Arahatship (arahatta-magga): (1) covetousness and > unrighteous greed, (11) obstinacy, (12) presumption, (13) conceit, (14) > arrogance, (15) vanity." > If, in the last group of terms, covetousness is taken in a restricted > sense as referring only to the craving for the five sense objects, it is > finally abandoned by the path of Non-returning; and this is according to > Comy. the meaning intended here. All greed, however, including the > hankering after fine material and immaterial existence, is eradicated only > on the path of Arahatship; hence the classification under the latter in > the list above. > > Comy. repeatedly stresses that wherever in our text "abandoning" is > mentioned, reference is to the Non-returner (anagami); for also in the > case of defilements overcome on Stream-entry (see above), the states of > mind which produce those defilements are eliminated only by the path of > Non-returning. [Go back] > > 5. Comy. emphasizes the connection of this paragraph with the following, > saying that the statements on each of the sixteen defilements should be > connected with the next' paragraphs, e.g., "when in him...ill will has > been abandoned, he thereupon gains unwavering confidence..." Hence the > grammatical construction of the original Pali passage -- though rather > awkward in English -- has been retained in this translation. > > The disciple's direct experience of being freed of this or that defilement > becomes for him a living test of his former still imperfectly proven trust > in the Buddha, Dhamma and Sangha. Now this trust has become a firm > conviction, an unshakable confidence, based on experience. [Go back] > > 6. "Unwavering confidence" (aveccappasada). Comy.: "unshakable and > immutable trust." Confidence of that nature is not attained before > Stream-entry because only at that stage is the fetter of sceptical doubt > (vicikiccha-samyojana) finally eliminated. Unwavering confidence in the > Buddha, Dhamma and Sangha are three of four characteristic qualities of a > Stream-winner (sotapaññassa angani); the fourth is unbroken morality, > which may be taken to be implied in Sec. 9 of our discourse referring to > the relinquishment of the defilements. [Go back] < > ***** > Metta, > > Sarah > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 33566 From: Date: Tue Jun 1, 2004 1:02am Subject: Re: [dsg] Phil, Near and far enemies of Brahma-Viharas Hi again, Sarah - Typo correction: The first "and" below should be "an". Sorry. > jealousy, and obvious child of both sensuous craving and ill will ^ With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 33567 From: htootintnaing Date: Tue Jun 1, 2004 7:40am Subject: Re: [dsg] Starting the journey to nibbana ( 01 ) Dear Sarah, Thanks for your comments. I may reply my own message when the problem areas arise as you pointed out or if you reply that particular message, I may be able to sort the problems out. Here will be some responses. Thanks again for your kind support. With Metta, Htoo Naing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: Dear Htoo, >--- htootintnaing wrote: >PS: I may possibly stay domant for a while. .............. S: I'm glad the conditions brought another result;-) You may wish to review this paragraph from Starting the Journey to Nibbana 01: H:Arahats each go to the state called nibbana. Nibbana is absolute peace as there is no fire of kilesa or defilement. Before they go into that state they all had to pass the last gate called arahatta cuti citta. All arahats passed this gate. This gate is the boundry. Arahats all go through their last series of cittas called arahatta phala citta. S:I also found the passage Jon picked up on rather misleading, but I'll leave that to the two of you to sort out;-). Oh, one more in Dhamma threads 012, 013 and 014 on bhavanga and vithi cittas... 012 "All vithi cittas are also part of life (bhavanga)"[S:???] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I will go to 012. Any citta is part of life. But when vithicittas arise, they become different from original character that is they take different object while bhavanga cittas take the same object all the time. In a satta ( satta pannatta ), all cittas at any given time is a part of life ( life is a pannatta ). But only bhavanga cittas are called bhavangacittas. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- 013 "In a given time there is no sense impression or no object citta."[S:???] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I may need to go to 013. If existing citta does not have the condition for its staying, it passes away and bhavanga citta has to arise. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- 014 "....when bhavanga cittas have passed away while arammana or sense impression has appeared"[S:???] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I think pictorial demonstration would help here. I may go to 014 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- [S: it sounds like bhavanga cittas don't have an arammana]. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: No. all cittas do have an arammana. But the distinction is that bhavanga cittas always take past object while vithi citta may take any object depending on situations. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- 014 "Normally a life starts with patisandhi and ends with cuti. In between is filled with all bhavanga cittas".[S:???] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Am I wrong? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- "But depending on kamma vipaka cittas have to arise as vithi citta". [I think you might stress many different conditions] ======================== ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I think there might need some more elaboration on the matter. With Metta, Htoo Naing 33568 From: Date: Tue Jun 1, 2004 3:56am Subject: Re: [dsg] Phil, Near and far enemies of Brahma-Viharas Hi again, Sarah - One more self-correction: In a message dated 6/1/04 8:25:10 AM Eastern Daylight Time, upasaka@a... writes: > Inasmuch as kama-raga and dosa are not even fully abandoned at the > stage of non-returning > ==================== I meant to say "once-returning", not "non-returning". With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 33569 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Tue Jun 1, 2004 8:49am Subject: [dsg] Re: 'Meaning fully drawn out' vs. 'meaning to be inferred' Hi Sarah, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > Hi Victor, > > Firstly, thank you very much for providing this sutta - just what I was > looking for. We had a detailed discussion on it ages ago - maybe before > escribe! > > --- yu_zhonghao wrote: > > [1] > > Anguttara Nikaya IV.42 > > Pañha Sutta > > Questions > > Translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu. > > For free distribution only. > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ --- > > ----------- > > "There are these four ways of answering questions. Which four? There > > are questions that should be answered categorically > > [straightforwardly yes, no, this, that]. There are questions that > > should be answered with an analytical (qualified) answer [defining > > or redefining the terms]. There are questions that should be > > answered with a counter-question. There are questions that should be > > put aside. These are the four ways of answering questions." > **** > S: Note that this sutta refers to the various methods of reply. > `Categorical' refers to one form of possible answer, not to the questions. Yes, Sarah, you are right about that. It was a mistake in my part. [snip] > Thank you again for helping me to consider and reflect so often. Thank you too. > > Metta, > > Sarah Metta, Victor 33570 From: agriosinski Date: Tue Jun 1, 2004 7:57am Subject: Re: Heart thing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" wrote:= > Hi All, > > My lurker friend replied off-list and seemed satisfied with my > response below. He then asked "Now, why do cittas have to have > physical support? Can't they just arise on the base of conditions > without any rupa arround?" Hi Rob, thank you for your ansvers. Hope you don't mind me asking you some more. > > My answer is: > > In the immaterial planes of existence (arupa-loka), there is no > physical base of support for the cittas. It would therefore seem that > the need for a physical base is a characteristic of the plane of > existence rather than a characterisitic of cittas themselves. > > Arupavacara cittas (formless jhana mental states; very high > meditative states) can arise in both the arupa-loka and in the kama- > loka (sensous world where humans reside). When these mental states > arise in arupa-loka, they do not require a physical base but when the > same mental states arise in kama-loka, they require a physical base. > > Metta, > Rob M :-) > So there is nama without rupa support and nama with one? > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" > wrote: > > Hi All, > > > > A lurker sent me the following message off-list. I am choosing to > > reply here. > > > > ===== > > > > Hi Rob :) > > > > in few places, seems like all of them in thai forest tradition > > there is something about heart. > > > > "The Ballad of Liberation from the Khandhas" > > by Phra Bhuridatto (Mun)Wat Srapathum [Bangkok] > > states: > > [...] > > "What runs?" > > "What runs quickly is viññana, > > movements walking in a row, > > one after another. Not doubting that saññas are right, > > the heart gets caught up in the running back & forth. > > Saññas grab hold of things outside > > and pull them in to fool the mind, > > Making it think in confusion & go out searching, > > wandering astray. > > They fool it with various dhammas, > > like a mirage." > > "What gains total release from the five khandhas?" > > "The heart, of course, & the heart alone. > > It doesn't grasp or get entangled. > > No more poison of possessiveness, > > no more delusion, > > it stands alone. > > No saññas can fool it into following along > > behind them." > > > > [...] > > > > and now, in your EXCELENT text, > > > > [...]At the time of rebirth, consciousness concomitant with 23 > vipaka > > citta > > s conditions rupa through: > > - Conascence condition. > > - Mutuality condition (only applies to heart-base rupa).[...] > > > > would you please tell me what this heart thing is? > > > > ===== > > > > My reply is as follows: > > > > You wrote, "seems like all of them in thai forest tradition". I > > disagree. "Heart" is a very important concept in many Mahayana > > traditions (Prajnaparamita Heart Sutta is highly revered). > > > > It would appear that in the first case, the author is using the > > term "heart" in a contemporary fashion to mean "mind", especially > the > > emotional aspect of "mind". For example, in conventional speech, > what > > do you mean when you say, "to follow my heart", "in my heart, I > > feel...", "I love you with all my heart"? In all cases, it is the > > emotional aspect of mind. > > > > In the second case, I am using the term "heart-base" > (hadayavatthu). > > Here is a relevant extract from Bhikkhu Bodhi's Comprehensive > Manual > > of Abhidhamma (p 144): > > According to the Pali commentators, the heart serves as the > physical > > support for all cittas other than the two sets of fivefold sense > > consciousness, which take their respective sensitivities as their > > bases. In the canonical Abhidhamma the heart base is not expressly > > mentioned. The Patthana, the last book of the Abhidhamma Pitaka, > > simply speaks of "that matter in dependence on which the mind > element > > and mind-consciousness element occur". The Commentaries, however, > > subsequently specific "that matter" to be the heart-base, a cavity > > situated within the physical heart. > > > > > > > > The commentary that Bhikkhu Bodhi is referring to is Vism VIII 111- > > 113. In classical India, it was believed that the mind was centered > > in the heart (not the brain). This was because it was clear that > > sense data moved about the body and the only thing that the ancient > > Indians could see as moving in the body was blood. Since all blood > > makes its way back to the heart, it was believed that the mind was > > centred in the heart. > > > > The fact that the canonical Abhidhamma did not slip into a common > > understanding of the day and avoided the issue by saying "that > matter > > in dependence on which the mind element and mind-consciousness > > element occur" really impresses me. It suggests to me that the > author > > of the Patthana knew that the heart was not centre of the mind but > > did not want to enter into that argument that would distract from > the > > point of the Abhidhamma. > > > > Metta, > > Rob M :-) Here is one more Rob: The Buddagosa in Visuddhimagga (viii, 111)says about hadayavatthu (heart ba= sis): "there is a hollow the size of a punnaga seeds ( very small?) bed where hal= f a pastata measure of blood is kept, with which as their support the mind e= lement and mind-consciousness element occur." Note that it is not the heart itself that is the hadaya-vatthu NOR is it the blood inside the heart but rather as the Paramatthamanjusa (see vis.xiii note 5 ) says "the heart basis occurs with this blood as its support". In the Introduction, Chapter 1 , 4. Odd Idea about Citta (Written by Thich Minh Thanh who is I think Zen master himself) "It is interesting to notice the alien idea about citta that happened to be in the proposition: 'citta is incorporeal and resident in the cave of the heart'[18]. It is probably because of a reference to this verse, in respect of the physical basis of citta, that some section of the Theravâdins developed a cardio-centric theory according to which the heart (hadayavatthu) is the locus of mind and mental consciousness. These Theravâdins appear to be alone in holding this theory and this is confirmed by the statement of Yaúomitra[19] that it is confined only to the school of Sri Lankan Buddhism. It is hard to find in the orthodox system of Buddhist thought any place to which the idea can be incorporated properly." So here we have it! There is a place for our conciousness :) Now did Buddha ever said this or anything of that sort? This I would really like to know. I remember reading The Blessed One said that on bases of sense organ coniousness arises. So there is vinnanas based on what abidhamamma calls five pasada rupas and here we have a problem, as seems that all of the bahidda rupas are just speculations of late monks. Or maybe I am getting it all wrong. I do think, that I need to see real relation of nama and rupa, and AFAICS mano has its rupa base and support in nervous system. Therefore there is no vinnana if there is no rupa organ to support it. Metta, Agrios 33571 From: Philip Date: Tue Jun 1, 2004 5:09pm Subject: Re: Monk, bail out this boat... Hi Rob, and all Thanks Rob. "Anumodana" will fit very nicely in the musical version of that verse from the Dhammapada. Perhaps I will have an opportunity to sing it for you all someday, of course on a day when musical entertainment is not frowned upon too severely. (And Icaro can play some Motorhead.) Actually, I really do feel like singing some Dhamma songs these days, like Maria in Sound of Music, up on that hill. I can imagine a novice monk running from the monastery to sing, and getting in trouble with the senior monk. Hmm..."Favourite Things" could become a serious consideration of lobha. There could be a song entitled "Abhidhamma" sung to the tune of Edelweiss! Yes, I think there is potential here. The writer in me is squirming with desire! Seriously, still thinking about this verse: "Monk, bail out this boat. > It will take you lightly when bailed. > Having cut through passion, aversion, > you go from there to Unbinding." > (XXV 369 - Thanissaro Bhikkhu) It ties in nicely with the discussion going on about at which stage of enlightenment various defilements are weakened or removed. We cut through the binds, weaken them, but they are only removed at certain monumental path moments? For me, "bail out" also brings the image of a hole through which akusala citta are rushing in faster than kusala cittas and the boat is sinking. But I read somewhere in one of Nina's books that kusala citta has a strength that makes it more likely than akusala to become khamma. Am I remembering that correctly? If so, there is hope to bail out the boat. There are fewer kusala cittas than akusala cittas, but the average kusala citta is stronger and more likely to become khamma than the average akusala citta? Metta, Phil 33572 From: robmoult Date: Tue Jun 1, 2004 5:30pm Subject: Re: Heart thing Hi Agrios, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "agriosinski" wrote: > Hi Rob, thank you for your ansvers. > Hope you don't mind me asking you some more. ===== I am very happy that you have come out of "lurker land". Many on DSG will benefit. ===== > > > > > My answer is: > > > > In the immaterial planes of existence (arupa-loka), there is no > > physical base of support for the cittas. It would therefore seem that > > the need for a physical base is a characteristic of the plane of > > existence rather than a characterisitic of cittas themselves. > > > > Arupavacara cittas (formless jhana mental states; very high > > meditative states) can arise in both the arupa-loka and in the kama- > > loka (sensous world where humans reside). When these mental states > > arise in arupa-loka, they do not require a physical base but when the > > same mental states arise in kama-loka, they require a physical base. > > So there is nama without rupa support and nama with one? > ===== Yes ===== > > > In the second case, I am using the term "heart-base" > > (hadayavatthu). > > > Here is a relevant extract from Bhikkhu Bodhi's Comprehensive > > Manual > > > of Abhidhamma (p 144): > > > According to the Pali commentators, the heart serves as the > > physical > > > support for all cittas other than the two sets of fivefold sense > > > consciousness, which take their respective sensitivities as their > > > bases. In the canonical Abhidhamma the heart base is not expressly > > > mentioned. The Patthana, the last book of the Abhidhamma Pitaka, > > > simply speaks of "that matter in dependence on which the mind > > element > > > and mind-consciousness element occur". The Commentaries, however, > > > subsequently specific "that matter" to be the heart-base, a cavity > > > situated within the physical heart. > > > > > > > > > > > > The commentary that Bhikkhu Bodhi is referring to is Vism VIII 111- > > > 113. In classical India, it was believed that the mind was centered > > > in the heart (not the brain). This was because it was clear that > > > sense data moved about the body and the only thing that the ancient > > > Indians could see as moving in the body was blood. Since all blood > > > makes its way back to the heart, it was believed that the mind was > > > centred in the heart. > > > > > > The fact that the canonical Abhidhamma did not slip into a common > > > understanding of the day and avoided the issue by saying "that > > matter > > > in dependence on which the mind element and mind-consciousness > > > element occur" really impresses me. It suggests to me that the > > author > > > of the Patthana knew that the heart was not centre of the mind but > > > did not want to enter into that argument that would distract from > > the > > > point of the Abhidhamma. > > > > Here is one more Rob: > The Buddagosa in Visuddhimagga (viii, 111)says about hadayavatthu (heart ba= > sis): > "there is a hollow the size of a punnaga seeds ( very small?) bed where hal= > f a pastata measure of blood is kept, with which as their support the mind e= > lement and mind-consciousness element occur." > Note that it is not the heart itself that is the hadaya-vatthu > NOR is it the blood inside the heart but rather as the > Paramatthamanjusa (see vis.xiii note 5 ) says "the heart basis > occurs with this blood as its support". > > In the Introduction, Chapter 1 , 4. Odd Idea about Citta > (Written by Thich Minh Thanh who is I think Zen master himself) > > "It is interesting to notice the alien idea about citta that > happened to be in the proposition: 'citta is incorporeal and > resident in the cave of the heart'[18]. It is probably because of > a reference to this verse, in respect of the physical basis of > citta, that some section of the Theravâdins developed a cardio- centric > theory according to which the heart (hadayavatthu) is the locus of > mind and mental consciousness. These Theravâdins appear to be > alone in holding this theory and this is confirmed by the statement of > Yaúomitra[19] that it is confined only to the school of Sri Lankan > Buddhism. It is hard to find in the orthodox system of Buddhist > thought any place to which the idea can be incorporated properly." > > So here we have it! > There is a place for our conciousness :) > Now did Buddha ever said this or anything of that sort? > This I would really like to know. ===== In a recent message Larry wrote, "I think the commentator may have misunderstood this passage...". Nina replied, "I am always very, very hesitant to say this ;-))" Well, here is a case that everybody (even the most orthodox Theravadin) will agree that Buddhaghosa (the author of the Visuddhimagga and compiler of the commentaries) got it wrong. Bhikkhu Bodhi (ordained in the Sri Lankan tradition) clearly explained this in the quote above. ===== > > I remember reading The Blessed One said that on bases of sense organ > coniousness arises. So there is vinnanas based on what abidhamamma > calls five pasada rupas and here we have a problem, as seems that > all of the bahidda rupas are just speculations of late monks. > Or maybe I am getting it all wrong. ===== In the Honeyball Sutta (Mn18), the Buddha said, "Dependent on the eye and forms, eye consciousness arises. The meeting of the three is contact." In this context, "eye" is eye-sensitivity; the pasada rupa. In other words, the concept of pasada rupas is firmly grounded in the Suttas. I assume that you mean "bahiddha rupas", external rupas (as opposed to pasada rupas). There has been lengthy discussion on DSG regarding external rupas. I believe that it was Jon who pointed out that there was a passage in the Suttas indicating that they posessed the three characteristics (tilakkhana). I think that Howard tends to take a purely phenomenological view that these external rupas do not exist. My position is that external rupas are outside the scope of the teaching as defined by the Buddha in the Simsapa Sutta (SN LVI.31) and Culamalunkya Sutta (Mn 63): "[Things that are] beneficial, belonging to the fundamentals of the holy life, leading to disenchantment, to dispassion, to cessation, to peace, to direct knowledge, to enlightenment, to Nibbana." ===== > > I do think, that I need to see real relation of nama and rupa, > and AFAICS mano has its rupa base and support in nervous system. > Therefore there is no vinnana if there is no rupa organ to support > it. ===== I would not be so quick to insert the concept of "nervous system"; you may end up making the same mistake that the ancient Indians made. I prefer that we stick with the canonical text, "that matter in dependence on which the mind element and mind-consciousness element occur". Metta, Rob M :-) 33573 From: robmoult Date: Tue Jun 1, 2004 5:36pm Subject: Re: Monk, bail out this boat... Hi Phil, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Philip" wrote: > But I read somewhere in one of Nina's books that kusala > citta has a strength that makes it more likely than akusala to become > khamma. Am I remembering that correctly? Only time for a quick reply. The strength of the kamma produced depends on the strength of the volition. Since we have so many accumulated tendencies that cause akusala, we are really "swimming against the stream" when we perform kusala. In addition, kusala is often done with pleasant feeling and this means accompanied by the cetasika piti (enthusiasm) which further strengthens the volition. Metta, Rob M :-) 33574 From: agriosinski Date: Tue Jun 1, 2004 8:05pm Subject: Re: Heart thing hi Rob, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" wrote: [...] > > So there is nama without rupa support and nama with one? > > > ===== > > Yes > > ===== would you make for me some sort of list in which this kind of nama_not_depending_on_rupa be related to its support? the way I think is based on khandas concept and all of them with exception of mano vinniana have physiological support which can be reduced, traced down to four basic rupas. [...] > I would not be so quick to insert the concept of "nervous system"; > you may end up making the same mistake that the ancient Indians made. > I prefer that we stick with the canonical text, "that matter in > dependence on which the mind element and mind-consciousness element > occur". was nervous system known to Buddha and his contemporaries at all? it works with khandas and as a sixth sense base has that all_other_senses scope as well. we can use "that matter" instead but I wanted to tell you what is my way of thinking. > Metta, > Rob M :-) metta, Agrios 33575 From: Sarah Date: Tue Jun 1, 2004 11:28pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Heart thing Hi Agrios (& RobM), --- agriosinski wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" > wrote:= > > > Hi All, > > > > My lurker friend replied off-list and seemed satisfied with my > > response below. He then asked "Now, why do cittas have to have > > physical support? Can't they just arise on the base of conditions > > without any rupa arround?" > > Hi Rob, thank you for your ansvers. > Hope you don't mind me asking you some more. .... S: I'm sure everyone is glad to read your discussion, so many thanks for de-lurking and joining DSG. Thanks also to Rob for the encouragement. I'm glad you're finding it helpful, Agrios and you do us all a favour by engaging Rob too. Your name sounds Greek. If you'd like to share anything else about yourself or where you live, pls do. You might also like to look at some of the posts written on 'heart' under this subject in Useful Posts: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/Useful_Posts I think at least one or two were written by Rob. Metta, Sarah ====== 33576 From: buddhatrue Date: Tue Jun 1, 2004 11:53pm Subject: Re: Monk, bail out this boat... Friend Phil, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Philip" wrote: What word would arise to capture the especially clear > feeling of gratitude I have this morning to the Buddha for his > teaching? Maybe "Hallelulah" would do! Sarah used a word to indicate > sharing in the kusala of others joyfully, but now I forget what it > was... > > Metta, > Phil > p.s Thank you, Nina, to all those responses to the questions I > asked yesterday. I will be looking at them tonight or tomorrow. I also think an appropriate Pali word to consider in this case is: Buddhanussati. It is meditation on the qualities of the Buddha. This kind of contemplation creates wholesome kamma by increasing our confidence in the Buddha and prepares the mind for deeper concentration and insight. Metta, James 33577 From: robmoult Date: Wed Jun 2, 2004 1:05am Subject: Re: Heart thing Hi Agrios, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "agriosinski" wrote: > hi Rob, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" wrote: > [...] > > > So there is nama without rupa support and nama with one? > > > > > ===== > > > > Yes > > > > ===== > > would you make for me some sort of list in which this kind > of nama_not_depending_on_rupa be related to its support? > > the way I think is based on khandas concept and > all of them with exception of mano vinniana have physiological > support which can be reduced, traced down to four basic rupas. > ===== I'm not sure that I understand the request. Are you asking for a list of the 24 conditions (paccaya) support the arising of citta in the arupa-loka plane of existence? There are six ways in which mind can be a condition for mind: - Proximity - Contiguity - Absense - Disappearance - Repetition (javana cittas only) - Association The arising of a mental state in this realm is conditioned by the previous mental state using the first five methods while the last is a self-referential condition linking the citta (consciousness, not mental state is meant here) and the various cetasikas. There are five ways in which mind is a condition for mind-matter (mind-only in the arupa-loka plane): - Root - Jhana - Path - Kamma (both conascent and asynchronous) - Result Of course, concepts and mind-and-matter can be a condition for mind in any plane of existence through object condition and decisive support (oject decisive support, proximity decisive support and natural decisive support). Agrios, was this really what you were asking or have I misunderstood you? ===== > [...] > > I would not be so quick to insert the concept of "nervous system"; > > you may end up making the same mistake that the ancient Indians made. > > I prefer that we stick with the canonical text, "that matter in > > dependence on which the mind element and mind-consciousness element > > occur". > > was nervous system known to Buddha and his contemporaries at all? > it works with khandas and as a sixth sense base has that all_other_senses scope as well. > we can use "that matter" instead but I wanted to tell you > what is my way of thinking. ===== I would not want to try and second guess what the Buddha knew :-) According to AN IV.77, this can drive you crazy! (or crazier as the case may be :-) Metta, Rob M :-) 33578 From: Philip Date: Wed Jun 2, 2004 1:33am Subject: Re: Monk, bail out this boat... Hi James Thanks for the pointer. I find myself meditating on the Buddha's qualities on recent mornings. There is a sense of devotion rising - I devote the day ahead to the Buddha, in some as yet unspecific way. (It used to be by seeing myself as an agent of Metta - Metta man! I have let that one go...) J: > This kind of contemplation creates wholesome kamma by increasing our > confidence in the Buddha and prepares the mind for deeper > concentration and insight. Ph: Of course, the qualities of the Buddha that I contemplate are still being generated from my own ideals, by self, but it is a good beginning. By studying Dhamma and discussing Dhamma with good friends like you, I will continue to come closer to understanding the true qualities of the Buddha. Embodying them? Metta, Phil --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: > Friend Phil, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Philip" wrote: > What word would arise to capture the especially clear > > feeling of gratitude I have this morning to the Buddha for his > > teaching? Maybe "Hallelulah" would do! Sarah used a word to > indicate > > sharing in the kusala of others joyfully, but now I forget what it > > was... > > > > Metta, > > Phil > > p.s Thank you, Nina, to all those responses to the questions I > > asked yesterday. I will be looking at them tonight or tomorrow. > > > I also think an appropriate Pali word to consider in this case is: > Buddhanussati. It is meditation on the qualities of the Buddha. > This kind of contemplation creates wholesome kamma by increasing our > confidence in the Buddha and prepares the mind for deeper > concentration and insight. > > Metta, James 33579 From: gazita2002 Date: Wed Jun 2, 2004 4:17am Subject: Re: Phil: Sati Dear Nina and Philip, I am enjoying and benefiting from the interaction between you two. Would like to add something from my old notebook, that I have just read. In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > Dear Philip, > Very good you bring this up. I like to discuss this more later on. > op 31-05-2004 03:56 schreef Philip op plnao@j...: > > > On p.116, you write "Sati in vipassana is mindful, non-forgetful of > > ultimate realities, of the namas and rupas which appear. It is > > *completely different* from what we mean by "mindfulness" > > or "awareness" in conventional language." > satipatthana, also dogs and jackals can have this sort of awareness. It does > not shed the belief in a living being. In other words, he should know nama > and rupa as they are. > When you know that you are walking to the station, it is merely thinking, > and usually thinking with lobha or wrong view: I walk. [snip] In Ch 16, I explain about the objects of > mindfulness and that is important. Right understanding of the objects of > mindfulness, nama and rupa. Intellectual understanding that is correct is > the precursor of direct understanding. That is why A. Sujin says, it is > better not to think so much of sati. Is there any understanding of dhamma > now, she repeats. This is what we have to ask ourselves time and again. > Conventional sati will not help to have more understanding of what the > objects of satipatthana are. Of course, while walking you can reflect on > those objects, or you can sit on a cushion (with coffee) and reflect on the > Dhamma. Good to take time for reflection. > Nina. The intelligent, skillful way to live is the way of the Buddha. Firstly, by following the precepts - with right understanding - one can live wholesomely. We do many absent-minded actions in the one day. The most skillful thing we can do with our bodies is to use it to give useful things to other beings ,to give kindness when and wherever we can, to help other people when there are opportunities - not to let these opportunities fall by - bec then its too late. If we mix up the skillful with the unskillful , how are we ever going to know which to develop and which to eradicate. Social reform comes about by reforming oneself and once one realises that there is no self, then one's idea of social reform changes. One realizes that one is not as powerful as formerly believed. Patience, courage and good cheer, Azita. 33580 From: agriosinski Date: Wed Jun 2, 2004 5:50am Subject: Re: Heart thing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" wrote: [...] > > Agrios, was this really what you were asking or have I misunderstood > you? > > ===== this is exactly what I was interested in Rob, thank you again. now when I read it, it seems way over my head. I would need some time to study this answer and a whole thing. [...] > I would not want to try and second guess what the Buddha knew :-) > According to AN IV.77, this can drive you crazy! (or crazier as the > case may be :-) Won't even look into it then :) > > Metta, > Rob M :-) Metta, Agrios. 33581 From: agriosinski Date: Wed Jun 2, 2004 6:08am Subject: [dsg] Re: Heart thing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > Hi Agrios (& RobM), Hi Sarah and All, > S: I'm sure everyone is glad to read your discussion, so many thanks for > de-lurking and joining DSG. Thanks also to Rob for the encouragement. I would call it enforcement.. ;) [...] > If you'd like to share anything else about > yourself or where you live, pls do. You might also like to look at some of > the posts written on 'heart' under this subject in Useful Posts: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/Useful_Posts my nick dates from old times when I use to have lot of discussions with Greeks on Christian forums. being Roman Catholic at the time. I am of Polish descent, new happy Canadian. this is my second or third year of studying Pali Cannon, and first year when I consider myself to be Therawada Buddhist. thanks for your welcome message and link Sarah, Metta, Agrios 33582 From: htootintnaing Date: Wed Jun 2, 2004 7:32am Subject: Re: Dhamma Thread ( 024 ) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" wrote: > Dear Dhama Friends, > > Citta always takes an object. 25 cittas take only kamma objects that > is sight, sound, smell, taste, or touch and their related things. > May you all be free from suffering. > > With Unlimited Metta, > > Htoo Naing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Dhamma Friends, This is just to let you know that I may be staying dormant for a bout 2 months even though I may appear intermittently whenever I have got time to discuss on dhamma issues. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 33583 From: robmoult Date: Wed Jun 2, 2004 7:41am Subject: [dsg] Re: Heart thing Hi Agrios, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "agriosinski" wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > I am of Polish descent, new happy Canadian. Canadian, eh? So am I, though I haven't lived in Canada for more than 15 years, I was born in Toronto. I now live in Kuala Lumpur. Looking forward to your next post! Metta, Rob M :-) 33584 From: Dhammaasoka Date: Wed Jun 2, 2004 7:49am Subject: Questions on Visuddhimagga and Abhidhamma Hi! My friends and I have a few questions on Visuddhimagga and Abhidhamma which need help from you all to help to solve. 1. What are the proximate cause of colour (visile data), sound, odour, flavour? Is the primary materiality their proximate cause? 2. What is the form of visible data? A light with single colour or image? Is the eye-consciousness arise at the eye or the heart base when visible data collide with the eye? If the object arises at both places, how does it happen? 3. In what kind of condition that the object of registration (tadaarammana) is not the same object of the impulsion? 4. Does the mental factors of ahetu-vipaka-consciousness can only come from the indeterminate group? 5. Why the 8 kinds of kusala citta in the sense-sphere can produce `similar' results (8 mahakusala citta vipaka) and there is no `similar'results for the akusala citta in the sense-sphere? 6. Is the first seven cetasikas from the indeterminate group arise according to the sequence? Really hope you all can help as we have try to look for help where we can reach but in vain. With regards, Lee 33585 From: robmoult Date: Wed Jun 2, 2004 3:05pm Subject: Re: Questions on Visuddhimagga and Abhidhamma Hi Lee, Welcome to DSG. Excellent questions! --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Dhammaasoka" wrote: > My friends and I have a few questions on Visuddhimagga and > Abhidhamma which need help from you all to help to solve. > > 1. What are the proximate cause of colour (visile data), sound, > odour, flavour? Is the primary materiality their proximate cause? ===== According to Vism XIV 54, proximate cause of visible data, sound, odour and flavour is the four great primaries. ===== > > 2. What is the form of visible data? A light with single colour or > image? Is the eye-consciousness arise at the eye or the heart base > when visible data collide with the eye? If the object arises at both > places, how does it happen? ===== Visible data is what impinges upon eye-sensitivity. It is an image and could be considered to be like a single frame of a motion picture film. Eye-consciousness arises at the eye. ===== > > 3. In what kind of condition that the object of registration > (tadaarammana) is not the same object of the impulsion? ===== All cittas in the cognitive process (sense door process or mind door process take the same object. Therefore, the object of registration is always the same as the object of impulsion. ===== > > 4. Does the mental factors of ahetu-vipaka-consciousness can only > come from the indeterminate group? ===== The cetasikas arising with rootless vipaka cittas are as follows: - The two sets of five sense-consciousness have only the seven universal cetasikas - The remaining five rootless vipaka cittas (two receiving, three investigating) have the seven universal cetasikas plus initial application, sustained application plus determination. The investigating with pleasant feeling also has enthusiasm. All of these cetasikas are from the indeterminate group. ===== > > 5. Why the 8 kinds of kusala citta in the sense-sphere can > produce `similar' results (8 mahakusala citta vipaka) and there is > no `similar'results for the akusala citta in the sense-sphere? > ===== The roles of the mahavipaka cittas are: - Bhavanga for human / deva / brahma realms with two or three roots, pleasant / neutral feeling, prompted / unprompted - Registration for desireable and very desireable rupas All beings in the woeful planes have the same citta performing the role of bhavanaga (investigating consciousness with indifferent feeling). This same citta plays the role of registration for undesireable rupas. I am not sure that this answers the question of "WHY" :-) ===== > 6. Is the first seven cetasikas from the indeterminate group arise > according to the sequence? > ===== Cetasiaks do not arise in a sequence, they all arise together, each performing their own function. The functions of the first seven cetasikas are: - Contact: keeps connection with the object - Feeling: experiences the flavour of the object - Perception: marking the object (or recognizing a marked object) - One-pointedness: concentrating on an object - Attention: directing the focus of the concentration - Volition: coordinating the functions of the cetasikas (also creates kamma in javana cittas) - Life Faculty: supporting the life of the citta and conascent cetasikas ===== > Really hope you all can help as we have try to look for help where > we can reach but in vain. ===== I have given very short answers to very short questions. Let me know if there are any answers that you would like to have expanded upon. Clearly, you and your friends have been studying Abhidhamma for some time. Where are you and your friends located? Do you get together regularly to discuss Abhidhamma? Metta, Rob M :-) 33586 From: Sarah Date: Wed Jun 2, 2004 11:08pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Starting the journey to nibbana ( 01 ) Dear Htoo, --- htootintnaing wrote: > Dear Sarah, > > Thanks for your comments. I may reply my own message when the problem > areas arise as you pointed out or if you reply that particular > message, I may be able to sort the problems out. .... S: I apologise for doing it like this - I scribble down notes and then it’s hard to find the originals. Pls feel free to move them back to the thread if you prefer (or I will if we need the original context). ..... > H:Arahats each go to the state called nibbana. Nibbana is absolute > peace as there is no fire of kilesa or defilement. Before they go > into that state they all had to pass the last gate called arahatta > cuti citta. All arahats passed this gate. This gate is the boundry. > Arahats all go through their last series of cittas called arahatta > phala citta. .... S: In the first part of this paragraph you seem to be talking about parinibbana (at the death of the arahant) after arahatta cuti citta. You refer to the last series of cittas as ‘arahatta phala citta’, but surely arahatta phala citta refers to the cittas following arahatta magga citta when arahantship is attained? Are you referring to phala samapatti or is phala used in connection with the last series of cittas of an arhant? I’m not aware of this. Pls clarify. .... > 012 "All vithi cittas are also part of life (bhavanga)"[S:???] > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: I will go to 012. Any citta is part of life. But when > vithicittas arise, they become different from original character that > is they take different object while bhavanga cittas take the same > object all the time. In a satta ( satta pannatta ), all cittas at any > given time is a part of life ( life is a pannatta ). But only > bhavanga cittas are called bhavangacittas. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- S: OK. I had thought from what I quoted above that it was suggesting ‘all vithi cittas’ were part of bhavanga. When there are vithi cittas, there are no bhavanga cittas. One citta at a time. .... > 013 "In a given time there is no sense impression or no object > citta."[S:???] > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: I may need to go to 013. If existing citta does not have the > condition for its staying, it passes away and bhavanga citta has to > arise. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- S: OK, of course as you agree, bhavanga citta also has its object. I think you mean, no sense or mind door citta process. .... > 014 "....when bhavanga cittas have passed away while arammana or > sense > impression has appeared"[S:???] > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: I think pictorial demonstration would help here. I may go to 014 > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > [S: it sounds like bhavanga cittas don't have an arammana]. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- S: Same as last one - just a misunderstanding I think. By arammana, you are just referring to sense door arammana. You clarify this in later posts. .... > Htoo: No. all cittas do have an arammana. But the distinction is that > bhavanga cittas always take past object while vithi citta may take > any object depending on situations. ... S: Ok. .... > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > 014 "Normally a life starts with patisandhi and ends with cuti. > In > between is filled with all bhavanga cittas".[S:???] > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: Am I wrong? > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- S: It makes it sound like there are only bhavanga cittas in between, but I know you don’t mean this. You mean ‘filled with bhavanga cittas’ between the sense and mind door processes. .... > "But depending on kamma vipaka cittas have to arise as vithi > citta". > [I think you might stress many different conditions] > ======================== > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: I think there might need some more elaboration on the matter. ... S: I think you are meaning that vipaka cittas (such as seeing and hearing) depend on kamma (with supporting conditions). I may have misundestood it before. I think these were small points and misunderstandings. Perhaps with the other one you were discussing with Jon too. You wrote about kusala and akusala, but were referring to kusala and akusala vipaka as I recall (016 and 022). I think of kusala and akusala cittas only arising in the javana process. I’ve now read your later posts in the series in which you clarify most the points, so I know there is no real misunderstanding or difference. I appreciate all the detail. I particularly like your comment in JTN (02) and please continue to encourage others with the Abhidhamma too;-): ***** H: >'Svakkhato bhagavatadhammo'. The Buddha Gotama had preached many dhamma on separate occasions. All these dhammas are good at the start, good at the middle part and good at the end and good through out dhamma preaching. The Buddha preached for 45 years and there had been about 14,636 days in 45 years including extra days for leap years. About 90 days were in Deva realm preaching all Abhidhamma to Devas and Brahmas with the aim giving a chance Himself returning His gratitute to His late mother who was reborn in Deva realm. >There have been more than 10,000 suttas as there had been more than 10,000 days as His Buddhahood. There are fewer suttas on the net than actual number exists. Suttas always have the main reason for preaching and the targeted satta/s. A single person may not need to learn every sutta that The Buddha preached. But dhammas are always good and any dhamma whether suttas or abhidhamma or vinaya all throw a good light on dhamma clearly.< **** Metta, Sarah p.s DT (016) you refer to ‘if avajjana citta is akusala...’, but of course as you clarify in (017), avajjana cittas are (ahetuka) kiriya cittas, not kusala or akusala. Your comments in (015) on the meaning of vajjana,eg ‘manodraravajjana citta arises and contemplates on the object....’ are interesting. Of course this is just one citta, usually translated as mind-door adverting consciousness. I’m not sure that we can use contemplating or thinking in this connection. ====== 33587 From: kenhowardau Date: Wed Jun 2, 2004 11:22pm Subject: Re: Playing around with the past Hi Andrew and Christine, This brief conversation of yours must have touched a nerve; I keep thinking about it! -------------- A: > > When I first came to Buddhism, I was encouraged to develop metta and compassion towards "difficult" people by remembering that, in the past, they had shown great compassion towards me - indeed, they had even been my mother! > > C, quoting Mata Sutta: > < . . .> "A being who has not been your mother at one time in the past is not easy to find... A being who has not been your father... your brother... your sister... your son... your daughter at one time in the past is not easy to find. > ------------- That's the inevitable conclusion when we consider the time we have spent in samsara: there is nothing new under the sun. All the possible relationships we've had with all those people! Yuck, it doesn't bear thinking about. -------------------- M-sutta: > "Long have you thus experienced stress, experienced pain, experienced loss, swelling the cemeteries – ---------------------- The only thing, we know for sure that we haven't experienced, is Path Consciousness. ------------------ "enough to become disenchanted with all fabricated things, enough to become dispassionate, enough to be released." > ----------------- Knowing that there is a way out makes contemplation of infinite samsara quite liberating, doesn't it? It reminds me of people who have had `near death experiences' only more so. It makes all conventional values meaningless and yet it makes the present moment incredibly meaningful. Kind regards, Ken H 33588 From: Sarah Date: Thu Jun 3, 2004 0:16am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Heart thing Hi RobM & Agrios, --- robmoult wrote: > > > > In the second case, I am using the term "heart-base" > > > (hadayavatthu). > > > > Here is a relevant extract from Bhikkhu Bodhi's Comprehensive > > > Manual > > > > of Abhidhamma (p 144): ... The commentary to the Abhidammattha Sangaha adds a lot more detail by way of explanation. Most of this has already been quoted from other texts such as the Visuddhimagga and its Tiika. I highly recommend you read the following posts (by Nina and RobK) which give this detail and discussion on the topic. If you’re short of time, at least read the ones highlighted;-): ***** Heart Base (haddaya-vatthu) 5395, 5410, 28720, 28744, 28754, 28862, 28944, 28999, 29032, 29063, 29079, 29176, 30352 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/28754 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/28862 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/28944 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/28999 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/29032 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/29063 ***** > Well, here is a case that everybody (even the most orthodox > Theravadin) will agree that Buddhaghosa (the author of the > Visuddhimagga and compiler of the commentaries) got it wrong. Bhikkhu > Bodhi (ordained in the Sri Lankan tradition) clearly explained this > in the quote above. .... S: Objection!!I don’t understand B.Bodhi to have suggested that ‘Buddhaghosa got it wrong.’ As I understand, in his comment he is giving a very brief summary of the detailed commentary note which goes to pains to show the reasons for ‘its reasonableness’. The orthodox Theravada tradition (including the Buddhist Councils as I understand) includes the Visuddhimagga and other ancient Pali commentaries. Buddhaghosa was a compiler of ancient commentaries -- as you agree -- brought to Sri lanka by the great arahant Mahinda. His compilation work was under the scrutiny of the great arahants in Sri Lanka at the time. (See ‘Buddhaghosa’ in U.P.) Whenever I find any discrepancy or something which doesn’t make sense, it always turns out to be my ignorance that’s the problem, not the ancient commentators. I understand that this is a minority view;-). .... > I assume that you mean "bahiddha rupas", external rupas (as opposed > to pasada rupas). There has been lengthy discussion on DSG regarding > external rupas. I believe that it was Jon who pointed out that there > was a passage in the Suttas indicating that they posessed the three > characteristics (tilakkhana). I think that Howard tends to take a > purely phenomenological view that these external rupas do not exist. > My position is that external rupas are outside the scope of the > teaching as defined by the Buddha in the Simsapa Sutta (SN LVI.31) > and Culamalunkya Sutta (Mn 63): "[Things that are] beneficial, > belonging to the fundamentals of the holy life, leading to > disenchantment, to dispassion, to cessation, to peace, to direct > knowledge, to enlightenment, to Nibbana." > > ===== S: On the other hand, I think it can lead to serious wrong view if we have an idea that there are no external rupas. I think in another thread, Rob, you were mentioning about visible object as conditioned by kamma and by temperature. Of course, v.o. is one of the 8 inseparable rupas arising in a kalapa conditioned by kamma, citta, nutrition or temperature. There is v.o. in each kalapa in the body (conditioned by kamma and other causes) and there is v.o. arising in each kalapa in external objects such as rocks, conditioned by temperature alone. If there were not these external rupas, then visible object could not be seen or known when we look out of the window like I’m doing now. Of course it’s also true to say (and I think this is the point you and Howard make well), that without the experience of -- or seeing of -- a visible object at any given time, there is no ‘world’ of seeing and no visible object is experienced to be known. In this sense, unseen v.o. or unexperienced heart-base for that matter, is not of major concern except for clarifying any misconceptions we may have that could lead us down a wrong path. Comments welcome and I'll try not to interrupt your good discussions too often! Metta, Sarah p.s Rob, appreciating all your posts on conditions. Is it you or RobK who is meeting Phil in Tokyo? Hope we hear a report. ====== 33589 From: Sarah Date: Thu Jun 3, 2004 1:08am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vedana Hi RobM, --- robmoult wrote: > There can be either pleasant mental feeling or neutral mental feeling > with lobha-mula cittas. It seems to me that the deciding factor as to > which type of feeling arises would have to be natural decisive > support condition. It does not seem right to me that the intrinsic > quality (anittha / ittha / ati-ittha) of the object would play a role. .... S: Many different conditions I think. For example, nat. decisive support as you say from all previously accumulated feelings. Also, association & mutuality by which the degree of lobha will condition the feeling and vice-versa - all cetasikas conditioning each other and the citta like in the soup mix. Then according to kamma condition, the sense experience arose to be conditioned by a desirable/undesirable object and certainly this will also condition the subsequent feeling in the javana process by prenascence condition I think (rupas lasting 17 moments of citta).Oh, also object decisive support condition whereby a particularly desirable object conditions lobha and associated states. Many others I'm sure. ..... > This leaves me with the question as to why one set of conditions > would work with dosa-mula and moha-mula cittas whereas another set of > conditions would work with lobha-mula cittas. > > Does anybody have any ideas? .... I'm not sure that this is so apart from the fact that there can be neutral or pleasant feeling with lobha. (Larry, example of lobha with neutral feeling might be like just now, looking at the computer or telephone - we don't realize there is lobha, but it's arising very, very often;-)). Some conditions like the last one I gave (object decisive support) would only apply to desirable objects - just the nature of the condition. In other words, the realities are just the way they are by conditions. I was interested in your detailed post to Larry on Paticcasamuppada and citta process. You mention 'prominent cetasikas' for each citta in a process. I'm wondering where this detail comes from, eg under registration citta (tadarammana), you write 'perception is the prominent cetasika in this citta supported by sustained application' and so on for the others before it. Glad for any illumination;-). Metta, Sarah p.s just found your other 'kamma' post. you were asking why 'sound is NOT a kamma-born rupa'. Sound, unlike visible object, is not one of the 8 inseperable rupas in each kalapa in the body and only arises when conditioned by citta (e.g. speech sounds) or temperature (e.g rocks falling, thunder). It'll depend on kamma whether there is any experiencing (hearing) of these sounds and whether desirable or undesirable ones are heard at any instant;-). ================= 33590 From: Date: Wed Jun 2, 2004 9:29pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Heart thing Hi, Sarah - In a message dated 6/3/04 3:18:03 AM Eastern Daylight Time, sarahdhhk@y... writes: > S: On the other hand, I think it can lead to serious wrong view if we have > an idea that there are no external rupas. > ------------------------------------------------- Howard: I say that depends on what one means by "external rupa". I take eye door to be "internal rupa" and visual object to be "external rupa". Both of these, however, are functional elements of experience. Some physical thing or event "out there" that is a *basis* for the visual object but is different from visual object is merely hypothesized and is never known but only inferred, whereas visual object is known. A "physical" thing or event "out there" independent of experience is a part of our world of concept, but it may well be no more than that. We cannot know that there is no such thing, nor can we know that there is. When pragmatism is adopted with regard to this, one gets my radical phenomenalist view that dismisses such a notion. Rob, as I understand him, does not dismiss it, but takes the point of view that the Dhamma doesn't deal with it, except when expressing itself via standard conventions. ------------------------------------------------- I think in another thread, Rob,> > you were mentioning about visible object as conditioned by kamma and by > temperature. Of course, v.o. is one of the 8 inseparable rupas arising in > a kalapa conditioned by kamma, citta, nutrition or temperature. There is > v.o. in each kalapa in the body (conditioned by kamma and other causes) > and there is v.o. arising in each kalapa in external objects such as > rocks, conditioned by temperature alone. If there were not these external > rupas, then visible object could not be seen or known when we look out of > the window like I’m doing now. > ------------------------------------------------ Howard: That is just a presumption on your part, Sarah. The "body", and "the external rocks", and, in fact, "the window that you are looking out of at the moment" all have as much reality to them as "my tree in the garden". All are the imagined referents of mind constructs, mere story projections. To speak of kalapas as constituents of these is to make kalapas and their constituent rupas constituents of pa~n~natti. Whatever is knowably actual must be part of experience. Anything else is merely conceptually projected and hypothesized, as I see it. ------------------------------------------------ > > Of course it’s also true to say (and I think this is the point you and > Howard make well), that without the experience of -- or seeing of -- a > visible object at any given time, there is no ‘world’ of seeing and no > visible object is experienced to be known. In this sense, unseen v.o. or > unexperienced heart-base for that matter, is not of major concern except > for clarifying any misconceptions we may have that could lead us down a > wrong path. > -------------------------------------------- Howard: But I go further, and point out that not only are these not of major concern, but that these are merely hypothesized. ======================= With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 33591 From: Sarah Date: Thu Jun 3, 2004 2:05am Subject: Re: [dsg] Phil, Near and far enemies of Brahma-Viharas Hi Howard, (Phil & All), --- upasaka@a... wrote: >... the sutta itself says nothing about ariyan > stages > - only the commentary does. .... S: I thought you’d point this out;-). I think we can piece together various extracts from suttas but in the final analysis, as Nina pointed out, when there is right understanding about kamma and vipaka (and no doubt at all for the sotapanna), there is no cause for jealousy or stinginess and sympathetic joy becomes more and more natural. A couple of sutta quotes for you, Howard: SN55 (Sotaapattisa.myutta):37 (7) Mahaanaama (Bodhi transl): “When, Mahaanaama, one has gone for refuge to the Buddha,the Dhamma, and the Sangha, one is then a lay follower.” In other words, a sotapanna with full confidence in the Triple gem who ‘places faith in the enlightenment of the Tathaagata’. This is followed by the usual description of how the lay follower is ‘accomplished in virtue’ by abstaining from the destruction of life and so on. We then read that this lay follower is accomplished in generosity (and remember here, the sutta is under the Sotapatti Samyutta): “Here, Mahaanaama, a lay follower dwells at home with a mind devoid of the stain of stinginess, freely generous, open-handed, delighting in relinquishment, one devoted to charity, delighting in giving and sharing.” S:We also read how this lay follower is accomplished in wisdom: “Here, Mahaanaama, a lay follower is wise, he possesses wisdom directed to arising and passing away, which is noble and penetrative, leading to the complete destruction of suffering....” ***** S: Also in M104, Saamagaama Sutta, we read about the six roots of disputes in the Sangha as a result of a bhikkhu who ‘dwells disrespectful and undeferential towards the Teacher, the Dhamma, and towards the Sangha, and he does not fulfil the training.’ As we read in many suttas that a sotapanna has full confidence in the Triple Gem, I take this to be a description of one not yet a sotapanna, still lacking confidence. It continues: “Again, a bhikkhu is contemptuous and domineering...envious and avaricious...deceitful and fraudulent...has evil wishes and wrong view...adheres to his own views, holds on to them tenaciously, and relinquishes them with difficulty. Such a bhikkhu dwells disrespectful and undeferential towards the Teacher, towards the Dhamma, and towards the Sangha, and he does not fulfil the training.” These are the same qualities* eradicated by the sotapanna (as listed in the sutta commentaries such as the one I gave on the ‘Simile of the Cloth’ and Abhidhamma) who has full confidence and respect for the Buddha, Dhamma and Sangha. ..... >S: One finds "By the path of Stream-entry (sotapatti-magga) are > abandoned: (5) denigration, (6) domineering, (7) envy, (8) jealousy, (9) > hypocrisy, > fraud." .... S: I understood your other comments . I think B.Bodhi’s notes on the ‘Sile of the Cloth’ clarify. As Nina mentioned, jealousy for example, is eradicated by the sotapanna, but it accompanies cittas rooted in aversion and aversion in full is only eradicated by the anagami (once returner). This is why aversion rather than jealousy is given as the far enemy of sympathetic joy, though for us worldlings, this may well manifest as jealousy. (Btw Phil, ‘greed as in attachment to the loved one’ does not necessarily involve wrong view of self. Again, a sotapanna still has plenty of attachment to loved ones, but no wrong view.) Finally, I think that rather than just relying on the texts, we can begin to prove for ourselves with the development of undestanding whether it’s true that as confidence in the Triple Gem grows, as the laws of kamma and vipaka become more evident, whether sympathetic joy becomes more natural and stinginess, jealousy and the other states mentioned above are gradually reduced by fully comprehending them for what they are. Metta. Sarah p.s *There are good descriptions of all these unwholesome qualities in the commentaries. I’d be glad to share any if requested. Here’s one on jealousy/envy for a start from Atthasalini 11, Bk1, 257: “...It has the characteristic of envying, of not enduring the prosperity of others, the function of taking no delight in such prosperity, the manifestation of turning one’s face from such prosperity, the proximate cause being such prosperity; and it should be regarded as a fetter.” =================================== > sarahdhhk@y... writes: > > > > > 3. The Sixteen Defilements of Mind: > > > > 1. abhijjha-visama-lobha, covetousness and unrighteous greed > > 2. byapada, ill will > > 3. kodha, anger > > 4. upanaha, hostility or malice > > 5. makkha, denigration or detraction; contempt > > 6. palasa, domineering or presumption > > 7. issa, envy > > 8. macchariya, jealousy, or avarice; selfishness > > 9. maya, hypocrisy or deceit > > 10. satheyya, fraud > > 11. thambha, obstinacy, obduracy > > 12. sarambha, presumption or rivalry; impetuosity > > 13. mana, conceit > > 14. atimana, arrogance, haughtiness > > 15. mada, vanity or pride > > 16. pamada, negligence or heedlessness; in social behavior, this leads > to > > lack of consideration. > > "By the path of Stream-entry (sotapatti-magga) are abandoned: (5) > > denigration, (6) domineering, (7) envy, (8) jealousy, (9) hypocrisy, > (10) > > fraud. > > > > "By the path of Non-returning (anagami-magga): (2) ill will, (3) > anger, > > (4) malice, (16) negligence. > > > > "By the path of Arahatship (arahatta-magga): (1) covetousness and > > unrighteous greed, (11) obstinacy, (12) presumption, (13) conceit, > (14) > > arrogance, (15) vanity." ========================== 33592 From: Sarah Date: Thu Jun 3, 2004 2:55am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Monk, bail out this boat... Hi James & Phil, --- buddhatrue wrote: > I also think an appropriate Pali word to consider in this case is: > Buddhanussati. It is meditation on the qualities of the Buddha. > This kind of contemplation creates wholesome kamma by increasing our > confidence in the Buddha and prepares the mind for deeper > concentration and insight. .... S: Excellent! Phil, I enjoyed your musical rendition of Dhammapada post ;-) Like James, I appreciate all your posts and friendly, humourous style with keen appreciation for the teachings. I'm sure your English classes are always lively too. .... P:> “...sitting on a cushion with a coffee (cheating!) as soon as I have gotten up and taken a pee and done a few calesthenics.” S: How about if you were sitting on a dining room chair or sitting on your cushion with a snack or sitting on a cushion reading a DSG post or swimming and reflecting on dhamma or getting dressed with moments of awareness........(just testing the limits;-)). Today is some kind of moon day and we had a more relaxed yoga class than usual (a tradition on these days). Another student said to me afterwards: ‘wasn’t it nice to do more meditation?’. I guess it’s all in the eye of the beholder;-) .... James, I thought your post on Sakka’s Questions, DN21 was a very good one and your points are very interesting. Just a few comments, but no answers here. Sakka is a sotapanna and he knows the Buddha’s answers are correct (unlike those of other ascetics and brahmins). I think the underlying emphasis perhaps is on the eradication of wrong view and wrong view proliferating. It is this kind of attachment (desire) which leads to the particular likes and dislikes resulting in jealousy and avarice/stinginess (selfishness is not a good translation for macchariya imho) which leads to hostility and battle as described in your post. There will still be anger and hate as you say, but not as strongly for one without wrong view. I’ve appreciate your post and as I say, these are just my reflections in the light of what I’ve read and considered elsewhere;-) Metta, Sarah p.s Phil, pls read the 6th letter of Nina from Jakarta on meditation at this link (scrolling down to the one addressed to Blanche, dated June 28th ‘82.) Pls quote back any parts for discussion with your comments if inclined. http://www.abhidhamma.org/lett2.html Also, thx for your kind reply under ‘Perseverence in Dhamma’ (the one I’m not meant to reply to further;-)). Yes, ‘Repaying One’s Parents’, AN, Bk of 2s, iv, 2. If there are the right conditions, of course the best repayment or generosity is helping with dhamma, but no use clinging to this if there are not the conditions or interest.I’ve been reminded of this a few times - it used to raise just this question and sutta;-) ====== 33593 From: gazita2002 Date: Thu Jun 3, 2004 3:04am Subject: Re: Playing around with the past Dear Ken H, Hello; missed meeting up with you again last Cooran time, but maybe I can make the next one if I know well in advance when it is. I like your last statement here and want to add my '2 cents worth'... --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > > Hi Andrew and Christine, > > This brief conversation of yours must have touched a nerve; I keep > thinking about it! -snip- > The only thing, we know for sure that we haven't experienced, is > Path Consciousness. > ------------------ > "enough to become disenchanted with all fabricated things, enough to > become dispassionate, enough to be released." > > > ----------------- > > Knowing that there is a way out makes contemplation of infinite > samsara quite liberating, doesn't it? It reminds me of people who > have had `near death experiences' only more so. It makes all > conventional values meaningless and yet it makes the present moment > incredibly meaningful. > > Kind regards, > Ken H Its the last sentence about meaningless and meaningful that caught my eye. Recently lots of things other than dhamma, seem to have lost any substance for me, and I know that there are not that many kusala moments either, bec its often accompanied by unpleasant feeling. I'm guessing its attachment for listening, being with dhamma friends etc. that is the cause of dosa [besides my accumulations]. That for me is the meaningless bit. The meaningful is the fact that I've heard the dhamma and can understand, at least some of the time, that reality cannot be 'manipulated' to fit in with what I want, no matter how hard I try. so to accept this present moment for what it is, does take a large amount of patience, courage and good cheer and a degree of understanding. 'We are never free of Abhidhamma. People who have never heard of it are not free of it; people who have heard but hate it are not free of Abhidhamma; people who love it but never follow it and vice versa, are never free of it!!' [from my notebook dated 8/3/2519 B.E.] Patience, courage and good cheer, Azita. 33594 From: htootintnaing Date: Thu Jun 3, 2004 4:14am Subject: Re: [dsg] Starting the journey to nibbana ( 01 ) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: Dear Htoo, .... S: I apologise for doing it like this - I scribble down notes and then it's hard to find the originals. Pls feel free to move them back to the thread if you prefer (or I will if we need the original context). ..... ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: It is fine. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- .... S: In the first part of this paragraph you seem to be talking about parinibbana (at the death of the arahant) after arahatta cuti citta. You refer to the last series of cittas as `arahatta phala citta', but surely arahatta phala citta refers to the cittas following arahatta magga citta when arahantship is attained? Are you referring to phala samapatti or is phala used in connection with the last series of cittas of an arhant? I'm not aware of this. Pls clarify. .... ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: This is a description of what most arahats do. Anyway, all arahats end with arahatta cuti citta which is tihetuka vipaka citta. In human realm, it is one of 4 nana sampayutta mahavipaka citta. In rupa brahma including suddhavasa brahmas, arahatta cuti citta will be rupavipaka citta while in arupa brahma arahatta cuti citta will be arupavipaka citta. Just before this is a series of javana cittas. These javana cittas may be any javana cittas. But most arahats stay in jhana samapatti or they may stay in phala samapatti. They might stay in kamavacara kiriya cittas. But after cuti, as these javana cittas are kiriya cittas ( if kamavacara they are kamavacara mahakiriya cittas, if in jhana and they are rupacavacara rupakiriya cittas ), there is no patisandhi citta and the whole circle at that time that is at the end of cuti citta of arahats is cut up and there is total extinguishment. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- S: OK, of course as you agree, bhavanga citta also has its object. I think you mean, no sense or mind door citta process. .... ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Right. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- S: It makes it sound like there are only bhavanga cittas in between, but I know you don't mean this. You mean `filled with bhavanga cittas' between the sense and mind door processes. .... ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Right. You grasped the idea. I just limited in the opening that 'Normally'. I mean life is made up of cittas and rupas as an illusion. After leaving co-existing rupas, cittas are being talked. So life is made up of cittas. The first citta is patisandhi and the last citta is cuti. In between are bhavanga cittas. In terms of bhumi ( realm ), jati (origin ), sankhara, sampayutta and arammana, patisandhi, bhavanga and cuti are all the same. Only difference is function. Leaving patisandhi and cuti, there will only be bhavanga cittas 'Normally'. :-) This is my own simile. If this is in old literature, it might be that I had read it long time ago. Or this may be totally new. There is a monkey. That monkey is a citta. As soon as a life starts, the first monkey is patisandhi citta. He is holding the arammana branch of maranasanna javana cittas of immediate past life. The monkey passes away. The branch disappears. The first bhavanga citta arises. That monkey holds a branch. As the branches of the same tree, branches are all the same in terms of bark colour, bark content, wood material etc etc. That 1st bhavanga monkey passes away. The branch disappears. Next citta arises. This happens in the same tree as there is kamma still left. When the tree is shaken, at the start of shaking, a monkey passes away. The branch disappears. Next arises bhavanga calana citta. As the branch is vibrating, the monkey is looking for another branch but he does not release the branch. He passes away. The branch disappears. Next arise bhavangupaccheda citta. This monkey is about to transfer himself to a new branch of different tree but he is still holding the old branch. He passes away. The branch disappears. There is no permanent monkey. Next monkey is holding a branch of a different tree. This is the start of vithi vara or the turn of arising of serially ordered cittas or consciousness. Yes. Vithi citta are called vithi citta not bhavanga citta. But what I said is any citta in an illusion of a life is a part of that whole life. So vithi cittas are all parts of life. But they are not called bhavanga citta which literally means part of life. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- S: I think of kusala and akusala cittas only arising in the javana process. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Yes. Nina suggested me to be clear. All kusala cittas and all akusala cittas arise only when in javana function. Vipaka cittas are not akusala cittas and they are not kusala cittas. The adjective 'akusala' and 'kusala' in front of vipaka may make readers confused. Vipaka are not akusala or kusala. Vipaka are abyakata. But vipaka may be the result of good actions in the past or the result of bad actions in the past. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- S: I particularly like your comment in JTN (02) and please continue to encourage others with the Abhidhamma too;-): ***** ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Actually I just express and try to put points for discussion. I will continue if time permit me. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Metta, Sarah p.s DT (016) you refer to `if avajjana citta is akusala...', but of course as you clarify in (017), avajjana cittas are (ahetuka) kiriya cittas, not kusala or akusala. Your comments in (015) on the meaning of vajjana,eg `manodraravajjana citta arises and contemplates on the object....' are interesting. Of course this is just one citta, usually translated as mind-door adverting consciousness. I'm not sure that we can use contemplating or thinking in this connection. ====== ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Pancadvaravajjana citta is a kiriya citta. I think I mentioned wrong because I was concentrated at arammana which is rupa. Avajjana as I mentioned has two parts. Aa is meant for arammana or object. Vajjana is to check, to contemplate, to scrutinise, to examine, to inspect, etc etc. So avajjana is like a watcher who is responsible controlling 5 gates. If a truck stops in front of one of the 5 gates, the watcher contemplates or checks or scrutinises or examines or inspects which gate the truck is standing. Next arise pancavinnana citta. Anantara 'walkie-talkie' alerts the gate opener ( pancavinnana citta ) and the specific gate is opened. Advert has different meanings. Only one of them just fits for avajjana. It is 'turn the attention to'. As soon as the truck stops in front of one of the 5 gates, the attention of the watcher is turned to all 5 gates. He knows gate 1 or gate 3 or gate 4 but he does not open the gate, which is the function of gate-openers. Avajjana citta checks which door the sense comes in. This is why I prefer Pali words rather than simple English words. I say Pali words but not Pali language. Pali words can become imported words and this will be much better than simple translated words. With Metta, Htoo Naing 33595 From: Bhikkhu Samahita Date: Thu Jun 3, 2004 4:04am Subject: The 7 Noble Treasures ! Friends: What are the seven Noble Treasures ? The confidence of Faith. The virtue of Morality. The conscience of Shame. The fear of Blame. The advantage of Learning. The gift of Generosity. The insight of Understanding. These are the seven Noble Treasures. Taught by the exalted & blessed Buddha. Source: Satta Ariya-dhanani. Digha Nikaya iii 251. The long Discourses of the Buddha: http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=251033 All yours in the Dhamma. Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. http://groups.msn.com/DirectDhamma/ http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Buddha-Direct/ http://www.smartgroups.com/groups/TrueDhamma 33596 From: agriosinski Date: Thu Jun 3, 2004 6:43am Subject: [dsg] Re: Heart thing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: Hi Howard, [...] > whereas visual object is known. A "physical" thing or event "out there" independent > of experience is a part of our world of concept, but it may well be no more > than that. [...] > The "body", and "the > external rocks", and, in fact, "the window that you are looking out of at the > moment" all have as much reality to them as "my tree in the garden". All are > the imagined referents of mind constructs, mere story projections. [...] > But I go further, and point out that not only are these not of major > concern, but that these are merely hypothesized. > ======================= > With metta, > Howard this is precisely why I took interest in this rupas. there is some kind of gap, problem of strange sort which is placed between mediative and intellectual experience. I don't have a view on the subject of rupas, but I do need to chose which way I will go. my choice is rather mediative and nonreactive. not the speculative one as I already spent most of life listening to speculations in my mind. Buddha advises to chose the way which leads to cessation of suffering and confusion. So maybe is best just to drop thinking about it and just sit. Not sure if this mind will give up. Will see. metta, Agrios 33597 From: agriosinski Date: Thu Jun 3, 2004 6:50am Subject: [dsg] Re: Heart thing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: [...] > > Comments welcome and I'll try not to interrupt your good discussions too > often! > > Metta, > > Sarah Hi Sarah, thank you for such a nice and clear introduction to the subject of external rupas. I have a picture now. I am saving this post as a starting point for future reference. metta, Agrios 33598 From: christine_forsyth Date: Thu Jun 3, 2004 0:18pm Subject: Buddhaghosa Hello All, On another list, someone posted: "If the Venerable Buddhagosa was an arahat then why did he at the end of the Visuddhi Magga make a sincere wish to be reborn at the time of the final fading away of the Buddha sassana?" I seem to remember a discussion of this point once (but can't find it in any archives) where (I think) someone showed that the words below were only in the Sinhalese texts, and that they were not by Buddhaghosa, but by a scribe: "So may I in my next becoming Behold the joys of Taavati.msaa, Glad in the qualities of virtue And unattached to sense desires By having reached the first fruition, And having in my last life seen Metteyya, Lord of Sages, Highest Of persons in the World, and Helper Delighting in all beings' welfare, And heard that Holy One proclaim The Teaching of the Noble Law, May I grace the Victor's Dispensation By reaizing its Highest Fruit." Can anyone help? metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- 33599 From: buddhatrue Date: Thu Jun 3, 2004 0:37pm Subject: Re: Monk, bail out this boat... Friend Sarah, Sarah: James, I thought your post on Sakka's Questions, DN21 was a very good one and your points are very interesting. James: So, do you agree with my points? I'm not sure what you mean by that they are `interesting'. Sarah: Just a few comments, but no answers here. Sakka is a sotapanna and he knows the Buddha's answers are correct (unlike those of other ascetics and brahmins). James: I am not sure of your point here. Sakka didn't become a sotapanna until the end of this particular discourse. In this instance, he didn't know while he was listening to the Buddha that the Buddha was correct. It wasn't until Sakka finished his whole series of questions that he knew the Buddha was correct, because he used his reasoning. This reasoning and the conclusions he drew made him become a sotapanna. Sarah: I think the underlying emphasis perhaps is on the eradication of wrong view and wrong view proliferating. It is this kind of attachment (desire) which leads to the particular likes and dislikes resulting in jealousy and avarice/stinginess (selfishness is not a good translation for macchariya imho) which leads to hostility and battle as described in your post. There will still be anger and hate as you say, but not as strongly for one without wrong view. James: Okay. Again, I don't know if you agree or disagree with my conclusions. I don't understand what you are saying exactly. If you re-explain I will try to respond. If it isn't important, or you don't have any position or points to make, we can just let it drop. No big deal to me. ;-)) Metta, James