34000 From: Date: Sat Jun 19, 2004 3:00am Subject: Re: [dsg] Away Hi, Sarah - In a message dated 6/19/04 4:32:10 AM Eastern Daylight Time, sarahdhhk@y... writes: > Hi Howard, > - > -- upasaka@a... wrote: >Hi, all - > > > > I will be away from home, and probably without internet access, > >from > >early Sunday a.m. (June 20) to the following Sunday evening (June 27). I > >will > >respond after the 27th to emails directed to me between the 20th and > >27th. > .... > S: thx for answering my curiosity in another post - I know that even when > you visit family in Texas you still have internet access so I was > wondering.....Both Jon and I wish you and Rita a lovely holiday. It sounds > like a great retirement treat for you both. > ------------------------------------------- Howard: Thanks! ------------------------------------------- If you have any meaningful> > discussions, however simple (like Nina and Lodewijk), perhaps you can make > notes and share with us on return. > ----------------------------------------- Howard: There won't likely be much of that, but if anything of value crops up, I'll let you all know! ;-) ----------------------------------------- > > Are you taking any Dhamma reading? Maybe one of Nina’s books like BDL or > ADL which are easy to carry? Or maybe some of your letters here to share > with Rita and to ask for her comments? In any case, I hope it’s a relaxing > holiday with plenty of food for wise reflection on those high sees;-) > ------------------------------------------- Howard: I'm bringing several books including Bhikkhu ~Nanananda's wonderful little commentary on the Kalakmara Sutta. I'm purposely re-reading that on the trip, because I'm going to be reading it aloud and adding my comments at three successsive meetings of the Queens College Buddhist Association (the group that a colleague and I established) on my return from the trip. ------------------------------------------ > > It’ll seem quiet without you for a week! > ------------------------------------------- Howard: ;-) Thanks. ------------------------------------------ > > Just a few brief comments on your comments to Rob Ep on some comments of > mine;-) - - > > It is a gradual, very gradual path and there really can be right > understanding and awareness now. What I described as practice or > satipatthana is not just a direct realization at enlightenment and > therefore merely theoretical, but it is the way that such understanding > can grow. If there is the right beginning again and again now, the gradual > path is developed and the adze handle is gradually being worn away. > ----------------------------------------------- Howard: Sure. the preparation and the results are always "right now". ----------------------------------------------- > > Cetana (right intention) is not an eightfold path factor but a cetasika > that ‘directs’ other cittas at every moment of the day. You express > concern that if there isn’t some special directing, there is ‘the danger > of our not doing what needs to be done’. > ------------------------------------------------ Howard: My caution is in grasping the snake by the tail instead of right below the head. Thoughts of "Nothing can be directed" can lead to no practice. Our inclination to inaction, laziness, and doing what we *like* rather than what is good for us is *powerful*, and the mind latches onto any excuse for taking "the easy way". We must be vigilant!! ------------------------------------------------- > > Howard, in your experience, does more understanding of anatta -- of seeing > and visible object and all the other realities we’ve been discussing here > -- really lead to less ‘doing of what needs to be done’? > ----------------------------------------------- Howard: Of *course* valid knowledge is for the good. We cannot do without it! But it must be rightly understood. Our defiled minds are greedy and lazy, and they misconstrue even what is true, led by desire. We think and do and believe what we *want*, and then we use our oh-so-clever reasoning ability in service to our defilements. Constant, vigilant self-observation is indispensable. The defilements are far stronger than we permit ourselves to realize - Mara is a subtle and sneaky little devil!! ---------------------------------------------- > > My experience is the opposite. Understanding of realities more and more > precisely and clearly as anatta -- however much of a kindergarden stage > this may be for us -- leads naturally to greater confidence in the value > of all kinds of wholesome states and the danger of all kinds of > unwholesome states, particularly to the danger of self-views. It naturally > leads to more metta, to more sympathy, joy in others good fortune and > equanimity, for example. There is more awareness of the dangers of near > and far enemies likely to sneak in all the time -- and they're certainly > not theoretical either;-). More precious still is that any development of > understanding leads to more detachment from what is conditioned at this > very moment and this is the only way it can develop further. > > As you rightly stressed, ‘in reality no one *is* doing anything, at any > time. Cetana and all the other mental states arise by conditions and > perform their functions accordingly. No one can push or direct them to be > any other way. Instead of being pessimistic as some would see the truths, > they are in fact liberating. > > Bon Voyage! > -------------------------------------- Howard: Thank you! :-) -------------------------------------- > > Metta, > > Sarah > ====================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 34001 From: Date: Sat Jun 19, 2004 3:10am Subject: Re: [dsg] Now, what? Hi, Herman - In a message dated 6/19/04 9:43:28 AM Eastern Daylight Time, hhofman@t... writes: > Hi everyone, > > The following may be clumsily written, but it is not about the > words. It is about the experience. > > When the mind is directed to the study of the present moment, the > now, it turns out it is already gone. "Now" is as much a concept > as "kusala" and has no properties other than not being there. > > The study of the present moment, with the intention of finding it, > is self-defeating. Awareness of the present moment has died with it. > Awareness occurs with viewlessness. Awareness is just awareness. > > Herman > > ======================= I agree with your entire post. The past is gone, the future only imagined, and the present ungraspable - gone as soon as arisen. It is all empty and ungraspable, and yet we can look! We can see! And we can set ourselves free by letting go. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 34002 From: agriosinski Date: Sat Jun 19, 2004 8:50am Subject: Naming (was Re: Rupas for beginners) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" wrote: > Hi Agrios, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "agriosinski" > wrote: > > > so sati is only possible when the self is dropped > > out of the picture? > > anything else would be just an attention (sanna -> manisikara?) > > of confused self? > > Let me lay a foundation here by being precise with my terminology and > then put the ball back in your court to continue the discussion. > > Any mental state which includes attachment to a view of self must be > unwholesome (ditthi arises in lobha-mula akusala cittas). > > All worldlings (not yet Sotapanna) still have a latent view of self > so that, when conditions are suitable, a view of self can arise. A > Sotapanna uproots the latent view of self, so it is not possible for > a Sotapanna to have a mental state that includes attachment to a view > of self. > > In all mental states that are wholesome, there must be sati > (mindfulness). In all mental states that are wholesome, there cannot > be attachment to a view of self. > > If one has a wholesome mental state, then one has sati and one sees > things as they really are. Obviously, this does not require that the > concepts of "nama", "rupa", "anicca", dukkha" or "anatta" arise in > the mind at that time. It is not about naming, it is at a "pre- > naming" stage that the mental state is wholesome. At the moment > of "pure giving", there is sati because, at that moment, the object > has been seen as it truly is without any distortion from latent > lobha, latent dosa or latent moha. > > Comments? I would need some more explanations. What is "pure giving"? What precisely you mean when you write "wholesome mental state". > Metta, > Rob M :-) 34003 From: agriosinski Date: Sat Jun 19, 2004 10:18am Subject: Re: Now, what? --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Egbert" wrote: > Hi everyone, > > The following may be clumsily written, but it is not about the > words. It is about the experience. > > When the mind is directed to the study of the present moment, the > now, it turns out it is already gone. "Now" is as much a concept > as "kusala" and has no properties other than not being there. > > The study of the present moment, with the intention of finding it, > is self-defeating. Awareness of the present moment has died with it. > Awareness occurs with viewlessness. Awareness is just awareness. > > Herman Hi Herman (and Rob and Howard), thank you for sharing this experience and opinions. Let me try to give my take on it: Awareness is just self having certain view, thinking this way, viewlessness is an awareness of other way of thinking. This self - can think both ways. As long as it builds its own existence, it will think anything. That's why I need to know if self has to dropped before any chance of sati will be possible. Metta, Agrios. 34004 From: Larry Date: Sat Jun 19, 2004 10:27am Subject: Re: [dsg] Comments to Vis. note 35, health. Icaro: "I am not fond of Toronto...Boo-Hoo-Hoo!!!" Hi Icaro, Cheer up, you are in the nearly tropical _southern_ Canada. Cast your eyes northward and see what you can see. Vast rupa! Imo, aversion is not detachment. Also, the masked man's faithful companion was Tonto, not Toronto. Larry --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "icarofranca" wrote: > Hi Larry! > > > (Narrator): Toronto - Canada´s second City and name of Masked Man´s > Indian partner... > > That´s reminds me a post of Rob Epstein about if Buddha sponsored > true aversion about mundane tratcs. Gautama always stressed the > necessity for everyone to tread up the Middle Path...but > sometimes,mainly at the passages concerning the Entry of Stream, the > Sotapani must erradicate wrong views and doubts of all Prompted and > un-prompted states of conscience. That creates de necessary > detachment for the next steps, Sakadagami and Anagami... > But in what degree is such detachment a form of aversion and > repulsion - Akusala states of mind ? > > (Narrator): While Larry wonders about the Akusala aspects of life > contemplating the high pines covered with silver snow at the Northern > canadian woods, the trumpet call of the RCMP sounds at distance > giving to all creatures in the forest a reassuring feeling: the brave > Mounties are near!!! Meanwhile... > > (Larry) > > What in the world are you doing in northern Canada??? > > (Ícaro):... I am not fond of Toronto...Boo-Hoo-Hoo!!! > > Mettaya, Ícaro > > > > > > "(Narrator): Northern of Canada, where men are really men and women > > too...with the beautiful canadian sun fading down over the River > Cayuga > > sparkling golden beams of light to all landscape,the marigolds > blotting > > the air with its scent Ícaro is punctuating all the good features of > > Kusala to Larry (that hadn't get yet his come-uppance)..." 34005 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sat Jun 19, 2004 10:40am Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. on Vis. note 35, health. Hi Larry, op 19-06-2004 00:47 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > "'Profitable' in the sense of health, blamelessness, and pleasant result > (see Pm.463)." > Is this a canonical definition or a commentarial definition? Do you know > where it first appears? N: A commentarial definition based on the Tipitaka. Pleasant result, this is kusala vipaka. In the Dhammasangani and all over the Tipitaka. The word profitable is just a way of translation of kusala. As to health: Expositor (p. 83): This is Buddhaghosa, but based in the Tipitaka. See Nakulapitar sutta (quoted in my ADL, Ch2), K.S. III, First Fifty, § 1): Nakulapitar was an old sick man. The Buddha said: 'Though my body is sick, my mind shall not be sick.' We are mentally sick so long as we have wrong view with regard to the five khandhas and cling to them. The medicin for mental illness is the development of the eightfold Path so that the four noble Truths can be realized and there will be an end to dukkha. We read in the Co to the Abhidhammattha Sangaha (Co to Topics of Abhidhamma) about the first type of kusala citta we shall also deal with in Vis. 83: about conditions for this type to be unprompted, and one of them is . Meant is also suitable food. And elsewhere in the Vis. I have seen: cleanliness of body. Thus, physical factors are among the conditions for kusala citta. I see here and also in the Tiika to the Vis. (by Dhammapala) many passages almost identical with what Buddhaghosa writes in the Expositor. The commentarial tradition is very consistent I notice more and more while comparing different passages. Nina. 34006 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sat Jun 19, 2004 10:40am Subject: Perseverance in Dhamma, Ch 5, no 6. Perseverance in Dhamma, Ch 5, no 6. The development of vipassanå is not a matter of focussing on specific objects and avoiding to think of concepts. We do not have to force ourselves to pay attention only to paramattha dhammas, that would be unnatural. Our life is full of concepts of persons and events, but it is most valuable to have more understanding of paramattha dhammas in the midst of life. We should not reject paying attention to concepts such as persons and events, they are part of our daily life. The Middle Way that is taught by the Buddha is the development of understanding of our own life, of our accumulations and inclinations as they naturally arise. Otherwise, the goal cannot be reached. Unknowingly we may be motivated by lobha to know only nåma and rúpa, and to avoid thinking of concepts, although we have realized in theory that this will only counteract the development. The persons we meet, the events that occur, our reactions to them with kusala cittas or akusala cittas, all that occurs in daily life can remind us of paramattha dhammas. Citta, cetasika and rupa are arising and falling away all the time. They are paramattha dhammas, they are within us and they are everywhere in our surroundings. They appear in daily life at this moment. If we could only let ourselves be reminded of them in whatever circumstances we are, then we can profit to the full of the Dhamma we learnt. The Abhidhamma teaches us what paramattha dhammas are and we can apply the Abhidhamma in the development of satipatthana, since the objects of sati and paññå are paramattha dhammas. The Abhidhamma can teach us to develop understanding naturally. Attachment and sadness may overwhelm us, but they can be known as only conditioned dhammas. They are cetasikas that are not ours. Sati and understanding are cetasikas performing their functions. Understanding is the foremost factor of the eightfold Path and it gradually develops. Right effort is another factor of the eightfold Path that performs its function of persevering with the development of right understanding. It is not ³me² but a cetasika, viriya cetasika. Viriya, energy or effort is the quality of a heroe, víro. We have to be heroic to be aware of the reality of this moment, so that we eventually cross the flood of the cycle of existence. That means that we should never lose courage, even when sati of satipatthåna does not often arise. Understanding is surely growing, even when we do not see much progress. Acharn Sujin encouraged us with the words: ³Why can't we be brave enough to understand reality at this moment?...If we are not brave enough lobha will turn us away from this moment and hope for the next moment. We can begin to see how lobha dominates our life from moment to moment, and even from life to life. People think that it is impossible to be aware in times of misery or happiness, but we should be courageous.² ******** Nina. 34007 From: Larry Date: Sat Jun 19, 2004 10:51am Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. on Vis. note 35, health. "'Profitable' in the sense of health, blamelessness, and pleasant result (see Pm.463)." Hi Nina, I think it is reasonable to say that kamma produced rupa is kusala, akusala, or indeterminate. For example, if I fall and the body is injured that injury is kamma produced and unhealthy regardless of whether I am conscious of it or not. Recently you fell while crossing a stream. There was only very minor injury but your clothing became wet. I would say "wearing wet clothing" is inherently undesirable and since you intended to wear the clothing instead of washing it a good lawyer could make the case that this is akusala kamma vipaka. The question is whether the rupas of "wet clothing" could be classed as akusala in the same sense as a bodily injury. On the one hand you chose those rupas but on the other hand they are temperature produced rupas. Also, I am interested in whatever abhidhamma has to say about mental health. What is mental health? How is generosity healthy? Larry 34008 From: Larry Date: Sat Jun 19, 2004 10:56am Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. on Vis. note 35, health. Hi Nina, Our messages crossed over the Atlantic. If you have any additional comments, I would be interested. Larry 34009 From: agriosinski Date: Sat Jun 19, 2004 11:38am Subject: Naming (was Re: Rupas for beginners) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "agriosinski" wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" wrote: > > Hi Agrios, > > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "agriosinski" > > wrote: > > > > > so sati is only possible when the self is dropped > > > out of the picture? > > > anything else would be just an attention (sanna -> manisikara?) > > > of confused self? > > > > Let me lay a foundation here by being precise with my terminology and > > then put the ball back in your court to continue the discussion. > > > > Any mental state which includes attachment to a view of self must be > > unwholesome (ditthi arises in lobha-mula akusala cittas). > > > > All worldlings (not yet Sotapanna) still have a latent view of self > > so that, when conditions are suitable, a view of self can arise. A > > Sotapanna uproots the latent view of self, so it is not possible for > > a Sotapanna to have a mental state that includes attachment to a view > > of self. > > > > In all mental states that are wholesome, there must be sati > > (mindfulness). In all mental states that are wholesome, there cannot > > be attachment to a view of self. > > > > If one has a wholesome mental state, then one has sati and one sees > > things as they really are. Obviously, this does not require that the > > concepts of "nama", "rupa", "anicca", dukkha" or "anatta" arise in > > the mind at that time. It is not about naming, it is at a "pre- > > naming" stage that the mental state is wholesome. At the moment > > of "pure giving", there is sati because, at that moment, the object > > has been seen as it truly is without any distortion from latent > > lobha, latent dosa or latent moha. > > > > Comments? > > > I would need some more explanations. > What is "pure giving"? > What precisely you mean when you write "wholesome mental state". and one more thing: Isn't object (the one to be seen by sati) just a creation of self? Are there objects outside of thinking? metta, Agrios 34010 From: Philip Date: Sat Jun 19, 2004 3:03pm Subject: One doorway for beginners? Hello Nina, and all Re-reading the book on the Perfections last night, came across this from chapter 4, quoting Khun Sujin: "The beginner is not keen enough to be aware of all objects which appear. The beginner should begin with one doorway at a time until he is skillful enough to be able to be aware of any object. The is the way. One should not try another way and neglect awareness of the object which appears. The beginner begins to develop right awareness of the object which appears, that is the duty of the beginner." This is what I've been wanting to do, but held back from designating a doorway to focus on, having read elsewhere that attempting to go about it in such a focussed way would be a self- driven exercise and defeat the purpose. Thanks in advance for any clarification on this. Metta, Phil 34011 From: Mr Tzung-Kuen Wen Date: Sat Jun 19, 2004 3:15pm Subject: ¦^ÂСGRe: |^?ETH>¡G[dsg] Bodhi: The Jhaanas and the Lay Disciple According to the Paali Suttas (1) Dear Sraah Thanks for your reply and kind suggestion. S: I haven?t seen the book but it seems to be a ?hot? topic in many circles. As you go on to say, a lot depends on interpretations of suttas and even more on whether the commentaries and Abhidhamma are fully accepted. T: I remember that this topic was recently discussed in other groups. Since there is no doubt that the commentaries acknowledge the sukkhavipassaka method, people who deny the possibility of attainment of arahantship without jhana usually do not accept post-canonical commentaries as authority. S: I?ve been considering why it is so ?hot? and I can only think it is because the answers or interpretations of the suttas affect ideas about ?practice?. For example, if one has an idea of teaching jhana first or vipassana meditation first, then whether the various stages of enlightenment can be realized without jhana becomes critical and the arguments in support will be loudly defended. T: I believe that as far as Mahasi¡¦s meditation tradition is concerned, they argued to justify the methods of meditation practice they are using for the benefits of the ordinary people who don¡¦t have time and ability to read the Pali texts directly. S: So I¡¦m not sure that all the questions about whether or not jhana is optional aren¡¦t based on an idea of ¡¥doing or not doing jhana meditation¡¦ rather than really understanding moments of kusala and the qualities of calm, metta,dana and so on now when they arise as distinct from near and far enemies. I¡¦d be glad of your comments on this and those of others too. T: Since it is said that ¡¥one who is concentrated knows and sees [dhammas] as they really are¡¦. Concentration (samadhi) is regarded as the proximate cause of wisdom. (Vism 438 (PTS)) The question may arise that to which level of concentration one should develop in order to gain insight into the reality of all mental and physical dhammas. If jhana is the requisite for attainment of magga-phala, we have no choice but to practice samatha meditat ion to attain jhanas before trying to practice vipassana meditation, otherwise, the aim to understand the reality of rupa-nama and nibbana will never be achieved. S: I think there is a lot more to be discussed about the meaning of vipassana. When realities are understood, I don?t think there is any argument or criticism. T: I happen to have two passages of the definition of vipassana. Patis ¢º 96: Insight is in the sense of contemplation as impermanent; insight is in the sense of contemplation as painful; insight is in the sense of contemplation as not self. (Aniccato anupassanat.t.hena vipassanaa dukkhato anupassanat.t.hena vipassanaa, anattato anupasanat.t.hena vipassanaa) Patis-a ¢¹ 116: It sees dhammas in various ways in relation to impermanence etc., so it is vipassana. Wisdom has this name. (Aniccataadivasena vividhehi aakaarehi dhamme passatiiti vipassanaa. Pa~n~naayetam naamam.) S: Having said that, I find all your comments in your letters to B.Bodhi and here to raise good points. It?s difficult for me to understand how scholars can justify using parts of the Abhidhamma and ancient Pali commentaries in defence of interpretations and not others. In these commentaries we read about how most of the Abhidhamma and the commentaries themselves (which Buddhaghosa based his compilations on) were rehearsed at the First Council. If we only partially accept them, it seems we?re suggesting our interpretations of the suttas are more valid or that the ancient commentators were speaking falsely when they declared them to have been rehearsed or to be the Buddha?s teaching. Furthermore this falsehood must have been perpetuated by the Mahavihara Theras (large numbers of arahants by report) and the theras from other Theravada countries at the time and in subsequent Councils. T: As you know, many people (and some Western scholars) deny the authority of post-canonical commentaries and try to understand the meaning of the Pali Canon in their own ways. I don¡¦t want to say it¡¦s wrong, but I think it might be dangerous if they don't consider traditional interpretations. If we know how the Buddhist Canons were transmitted to us, we will not insist with dosa that only this or that is the words of the Buddha, only this or that is the correct interpretation. Instead, we will wisely use the Buddhist Canon and commentaries only to reduce our defilements. From the scholarly perspective, the best way to approach, if it is possible, the words of the historical Buddha is to compare, as possible as we can, different versions of Buddhist Canon and different interpretations given in the post-canonical commentaries preserved in different schools. S: I?m not sure if B.Bodhi addressed the second way of Arahantship - tranquillity preceded by insight (vipassanaa-pubba?ngama?m samatha?m), one who makes insight the vehicle (vipassanaa-yaanika). I haven?t checked all the references you?ve both referred to as yet. T: ¡¥vipassanaa-pubbangamam samatham¡¦ means ¡¥samatha which is preceded by vipassana¡¦. This is explained in commentaries to indicate the meditative way of ¡¥sukkhavipassaka¡¦ (dry -insighter) who practices directly vipassana meditation without previously attaining ¡¥access concentration¡¦ or jhanas. ¡¥Vipassanaa-yaanika¡¦or 'suddha-vipassanaa-yaanika' is synonyms of 'sukkhavipassaka'. S: Whatever the rights and wrongs, like now, we?re all studying the Dhamma together, but by inclination we have different strengths and weaknesses - one will have more saddha, another more viriya and so on. So I?m sure that there are a very large number of possibilities depending on cittas arising at the time. T: I agree with you. It doesn¡¦t matter, I think, whether our interpretations of the Canon are precise or not (who knows, the Buddha is not here), the most important thing is to observe our mind as it really is in order to reduce our immeasurable defilements. metta, Tzungkuen 34012 From: Mr Tzung-Kuen Wen Date: Sat Jun 19, 2004 3:24pm Subject: Re: [dsg] B.Bodhi's comments on the Susima Sutta, SN 12:70 (10) Dear Swee Boon Thanks for your reply. It makes me think a lot. ----- 즳«H¥ó ----- ±H¥ó¤H: nidive ¤é´Á: ¬P´Á¤, ¤»¤ë 18, 2004 1:12 ¤W¤È ¥D¦®: ?^???G?^???GRe: [dsg] B.Bodhi's comments on the Susima Sutta, SN 12:70 (10) > I think Kitagirisutta said "arupa vimokkhas" and not "arupa jhanas". > Arupa vimokkhas include the four arupa jhanas and the "cessation > of perception & feeling". It is to my understanding that the Buddha > did not qualify if by "arupa vimokkhas", he allows the possibility > of PARTIAL "arupa vimokkhas". Without such a qualification, FULL > "arupa vimokkhas" should be inferred. This would then be in line > with DN 15. You¡¦re right, it is ¡¥aaruppaa santaa vimokhaa¡¦. But, how do we know the Pali term ¡¥aaruppaa santaa vimokhaa¡¦ includes ¡§cessation of perception & felling¡¨ ? The Kitagirisutta sutta seems not clarify this. Is the term explained in other suttas? If ¡¥aaruppaa santaa vimokhaa¡¦ are proved by suttas as including ¡§cessation of perception & felling¡¨, people still could argue otherwise-- The Buddha did not explicitly deny in the sutta the possibility of PARTIAL ¡§aaruppaa santaa vimokhaa¡¨, so PARTIAL ¡§aaruppaa santaa vimokhaa¡¨ can¡¦t be rule out without persuasive reasons. > I think the very important phrases here are "in a sequential way" > and "in a non-sequential way". The four rupa & arupa jhanas are > described as "in a sequential way". I take this to mean that for > an arahant to be released both ways, the arahant needs to proceed > in a sequential manner from the first jhana to the cessation of > perception & feeling. This would then be in line with DN 15. I check the Pali texts and find this sutta quite supports your view that ¡§cessation of perception and feeling¡¨ is the official criteria. The Pali term for "in a sequential way" is "pariyaayena", which could mean ¡§figuratively, metaphorically¡¨. The Pali term for "in a non-sequential way" is "nippariyaayenaa", which means ¡§literally, not figuratively¡¨. This sutta seems to suggest that an arahant who can attain the cessation of perception and feeling at will is ¡§literally¡¨ a ubhatobhagavimutta, while other arahants who can attain only 1st jhana etc. are only said figurative ly as ubhatobhagavimutta. It is also interesting to look at the Pannavimuttasutta, just next to the Ubhatobhagavimuttasutta, where Pannavimutta arahant is said to have ¡§cessation of perception and feeling¡¨ too. > I don't take the VM & commentaries as canonical references. They > could be wrong. Yes, Pali commentators could be wrong. Even the Pali Canon itself could be wrong. Since Pali Canon is just the set of Canon belonging to Theravada tradition, other early Indian schools such as Saravastivada and Mahasanghika have their own versions of Buddhist Canon, when different versions contradict one another (the Susima-sutta, among other suttas, is a good example.) It¡¦s difficult to tell definitely which version is ¡§right¡¨, or is really said by the Buddha. Given that the Buddhist Canon was co-recited by the disc iples after Buddha¡¦s death and was only orally transmitted down from generation to generation for more than 200 years, it will be questionable to take the passages of any set of the Canon to be the spoken words of the historical Buddha. Furthermore, the language which the Buddha used, probably old Maagadhii, according to K.R. Norman, is certainly not Pali. (K.R. Norman, A Philological Approach to Buddhism, p. 62.) Though the opinions of Theravadin commentators may sometimes be wrong, I prefer to consult the Pali commentaries from time to time in that the doctrines they give are quite beautiful and practical. Most important of all, commentators¡¦ knowledge of Pali language used in the Nikaya is surely much better than me, sometimes without their comments, the Nikaya texts, especially the verses, are almost unreadable. Anyway, people should choose their own ways to understand the Buddhist Canon(s) and gain benefits from them by reducing lobha, dosa and moha. That is why there are so many beautiful Buddhist traditions in the world. With regard to the question how to interpret phrase ¡§one does not attain the eight vimokkhas¡¨, do you suggest that the phrase doesn¡¦t indicate the possibility that one has none of the vimokkhas? metta, Tzungkuen 34013 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sat Jun 19, 2004 3:42pm Subject: Re: Stealing (was: Bodhi: The Jhaanas .....) Hello Sarah (and Jon), and all, I know this seems a trivial thing and I nearly wasn't going to mention it - but a remark you made in your last post on stealing (about the people taking the baby birds from the nest and how people living near wildlife in HK think they own that wildlife) had a stronger impact on me than any other thing in the last few months. It shocked me into realising that even when I think I understand the ordinary boring things in life (including my own attitudes), I really don't see even surface things as they are - I just think I do. (And if the perceptive, intuitive, moral "I" doesn't realise it - why should I be surprised or assume ulterior motives in others who don't seem to get the glaringly obvious?) Your remark that caused the shock (while I was feeling amusedly superior to people who think they own wildlife) was: Sarah: "I think one would have a hard time detecting any good motives in this case but what would you say about giving away puppies (taken from their mother) as another example where nothing is quite as simple as we'd like to think?" It's half an hour since I read that (literally with mouth dropping open) and I still feel a little disoriented. Not just because it's true! But because I'd never thought of it before. And if something so clear hadn't even occured to me on what isn't even considered an important matter - what else don't I know that I don't know (if you take my meaning). I've had dogs all my life - there has never been a single day since my birth when my family hasn't had a loved dog companion living with us, wonderful gentle intelligent beings - pedigreed Alsatians, Fox Terriers, Border Collies, but mostly endearing Labrador Retrievers, and now the piece de resistance - the stray mongrel Great Dane/Alsatian Cross who came for one night and is still here twelve years later. Only with him am I NOT guilty of taking what is not given. (I earnestly, diligently, exhaustingly, unsuccessfully, tried to give him back to someone, ANYone :-)). I don't mean to be going on about this - but this is a little scary. I thought it was only the major questions in life that I wasn't right on top of - anatta, rebirth, kamma, you know - the usual suspects :-). I wonder if it isn't those questions that should be taking up most of my reflection time, but rather getting to know myself and the world I live in as we really are. metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- p.s. sorry, but reading this post over, I can't seem to make it sound like a serious subject - I'll understand if it evokes a "what's she going on about?" response. C. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Hi Christine & All, > > --- christine_forsyth wrote: > Hello Sarah, all, > > > > Thank you for the assistance with the sutta refs. The first one > > remained a mystery though, until Steve's post arrived. > .... > S: Yes, I was glad for his assistance - in my rush, I'd read the first two > references as one. > .... > > Regarding the cockatoos. Your 'intention' was to prevent what you > > considered stealing of chicks from their parents. > > I wonder under what circumstances taking babies from a nest > > isn't 'taking what is not given'? [I mean, I know there are times > > in every mother's life when she might fleetingly consider giving the > > occasional child away-usually between the ages of two and three > > years with humans. :-).] > > Maybe if the parent bird was dead, and the intention was to care > > for the little ones? > .... > S: Hmmm..... I think one would have a hard time detecting any good motives > in this case but what would you say about giving away puppies (taken from > their mother) as another example where nothing is quite as simple as we'd > like to think? > .... > >Or if the 'takers' were government officials > > responsible for relocating them? > ... > S: I started chatting with them to check this out, but clearly not... > ... > > Did John give his reasons why he > > felt there was the possibility it wasn't stealing? > .... > S: I had mentioned calling the police and it was with his legal hat on > that he said it might not be against the law.... Also, he suggested > many indigenous New Territories locals consider the wildlife at their > door-steps to be their property and so in these cases there might not be > any intention or idea of stealing. (I'm also thinking of Azita's example > before of picking flowers in a park when one doesn't have any idea it's > not allowed.) > > What Jon kindly didn't remind me was that a few weeks ago when I found a > baby turtle struggling in the sea and looking very defenceless (I forget > if I mentioned it), I seriously considered bringing it home with the > mistaken idea that it was a fresh water pet that someone had left on the > beach. Luckily, I found out that it was in the right place and helped it > swim out instead. > > I'll look forward to your further comments. As with all the other > livelihood and precept issues, it will of course come down to momentary > intentions. > > Btw, Jon's comment about my unwise actions in confronting (however > politely) the cockatoo baby-snatchers was with regard to the risk I was > taking at interfering with their livelihood. > .... > > Glad to hear the croc was caught. Where is he now? > .... > S: She has a temporary home -- a farm -- where she's sunbathing but on > hunger-strike. Still, according to the Qld expert, a month's hunger-strike > is no problem. > .... > > And, tell me, Sarah ... did the snake 'gulp'like the one in Sri > > Lanka when you were diligently sitting in meditation? :-) :-) > .... > S: Ouch! > > Metta, > > Sarah > p.s Tipitak index is back in action - a great site for those not familiar > with it. > http://www.metta.lk/tipitaka/index.html > ====== 34014 From: Herman Hofman Date: Sat Jun 19, 2004 4:36pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Now, what? -----Original Message----- From: agriosinski [mailto:agriosinski@y...] Sent: Sunday, 20 June 2004 3:19 AM To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Subject: [dsg] Re: Now, what? --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Egbert" wrote: > Hi everyone, > > The following may be clumsily written, but it is not about the > words. It is about the experience. > > When the mind is directed to the study of the present moment, the > now, it turns out it is already gone. "Now" is as much a concept > as "kusala" and has no properties other than not being there. > > The study of the present moment, with the intention of finding it, > is self-defeating. Awareness of the present moment has died with it. > Awareness occurs with viewlessness. Awareness is just awareness. > > Herman Hi Herman (and Rob and Howard), thank you for sharing this experience and opinions. Let me try to give my take on it: Awareness is just self having certain view, thinking this way, viewlessness is an awareness of other way of thinking. This self - can think both ways. As long as it builds its own existence, it will think anything. That's why I need to know if self has to dropped before any chance of sati will be possible. Metta, Agrios. Hi Agrios and everyone, I'll start with your last remarks, because I think that is charted territory. (I've been there) :-) You can have absolute confidence that any thought of shoulding, musting, having to etc is generated by the ego. You can also have absolute confidence that the ego will never do anything to undermine itself. So the loop of "I must find out whether I need to do this or that" is itself an ego-bolstering device. Rather than being that thought, identifying with it, it is possible to just observe the thought, watch it come and watch it go. With regards to your first paragraph, I may be misreading you, but it reads like all thoughts and awarenesses are considered self-views. Is that what you are saying? Self-view doesn't make itself. Like every thought it arises because of conditions, and ceases because of conditions. At every international airport these days there is close vigilance and scrutiny of what is allowed on the plane. It is possible, likewise, to come to see the close scrutiny and vigilance that is already happening with regards to what is allowed through the gates to the mind. Very selectively, the passenger manifest of "house of cards" airlines is being groomed according to the prevailing policy. It is possible to come to see what that policy is. It is also possible to tamper with the policy. For a while, make the policy that nothing gets on board. Observe how plenty of thoughts present themselves for boarding nonetheless. No need to let them through. See what presents itself if something slips through. Reaffirm the policy. Watch the policy change as candidates present themselves with pressing arguments for boarding. Realise that you have been watching not-self in action. Hope the airline metaphor wasn't too silly :-) Herman 34015 From: robmoult Date: Sat Jun 19, 2004 4:52pm Subject: Naming (was Re: Rupas for beginners) Hi Agrios, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "agriosinski" wrote: > > I would need some more explanations. > > What is "pure giving"? > > What precisely you mean when you write "wholesome mental state". > > > and one more thing: > Isn't object (the one to be seen by sati) just a creation of > self? Are there objects outside of thinking? Some excellent questions! According to the Abhidhamma, what we commonly refer to as "mind" is really a sequence of mental states, each arising and then falling away. Each mental state has consciousness and a grouping of mental factors (cetasikas). Each mental state exists for a brief instant and performs a specific function. When I wrote "pure giving", I wanted to emphasize that I was referring to the split second when giving was happening, not the other mental states that might arise close to that event. In reality, mental states arise and fall so quickly that people sometimes mistakenly merge discrete events such as "thinking about how much the gift cost" and "pure giving" into one. The Abhidhamma provides a catalogue of 89 mental states (or 121 by a different way of counting). These mental states can be grouped in different ways, but one of the groupings is according to ethical quality: - Unwholesome (akusala): Kamma creating mental states that have a root mental factor of delusion (moha) and may also have a root mental factor of greed (lobha) or a root mental factor of aversion (dosa) - Wholesome (kusala): Kamma creating mental states that have root mental factors of non-greed (alobha) and non-aversion (adosa); they may also have a root mental factor of wisdom (panna). - Indeterminate (avyakata): Others There are mental factors (cetasikas) which arise in: - all mental states (i.e. contact) - some mental states of all three ethical qualities (i.e. enthusiasm) - all unwholesome mental states (i.e. lack of shame) - some unwholesome mental states (i.e. conceit) - all wholesome mental states (i.e. faith) - some wholesome mental states (i.e. compassion) Sati (mindfulness) is one of those mental factors which arise in all wholesome mental states. Your last question, "Isn't object (the one to be seen by sati) just a creation of self? Are there objects outside of thinking?" is extremely interesting. According to Abhidhamma, there are four ultimate realities: - Consciousness (citta) - Mental factors (cetasikas) - Matter (rupa) - Nibbana Note: just to make things confusing, mental states (a combination of consciousness and mental factors) are typically called citta, the same term as is used for consciousness. In this post, I reserve citta to mean consciousness. Citta is the process of being aware of an object (an activity). Citta is also that which is aware of an object (an agent). Finally, citta is the means by which the accompanying mental factors are aware of an object (an instrument). The object of a mental state and the mental state itself (led by citta) are different. There is a co-dependence, just as three sticks in a tripod all depend on each other for support, but the object is not created by the self. The Buddha defined beings as made up of five aggregates (pancakkhanda): - Matter (Rupa) -> Rupa - Feeling (Vedana) -> One of the cetasikaa - Perception (Sanna) -> One of the cetasikas - Mental Formations (Sankhara) -> A group of fifty cetasikas - Consciousness (Vinnana) -> Citta The Buddha constantly warned about the risk of taking any of these to be self. Metta, Rob M :-) 34016 From: gazita2002 Date: Sat Jun 19, 2004 4:56pm Subject: Re: Stealing (was: Bodhi: The Jhaanas .....) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Hello Sarah (and Jon), and all, > > I know this seems a trivial thing and I nearly wasn't going to > mention it - but a remark you made in your last post on stealing > (about the people taking the baby birds from the nest and how people > living near wildlife in HK think they own that wildlife) had a > stronger impact on me than any other thing in the last few months. > Dear Christine and others, Isn't it interesting how conditions work! Something seemingly irrelevant and trivial as you say, [but I imagine these mums share similar feelings to the aboriginal mums felt when their kids were stolen] can be a condition for a whole lot of reflection and probably understanding. Just another little reminder of how 'anatta' this whole world is, we truck along in our ignorance thinking we have a pretty good grip on all of this and then we get a whack in the head with a four- b'-two, [Aussie for a big lump of wood, for those who don't know what I'm on about.] I used to work in a dairy long before I heard Dhamma and before I had children, however I still felt traumatised when the boy calfs were sold and the mums mooed and wailed all night, long after the calfs were gone. I guess this is why dealing in flesh/beings is wrong livilhood. > It shocked me into realising that even when I think I understand > the ordinary boring things in life (including my own attitudes), I > really don't see even surface things as they are - I just think I > do. (And if the perceptive, intuitive, moral "I" doesn't realise > it - why should I be surprised or assume ulterior motives in others > who don't seem to get the glaringly obvious?) Your remark that > caused the shock (while I was feeling amusedly superior to people > who think they own wildlife) was: > > Sarah: "I think one would have a hard time detecting any good > motives in this case but what would you say about giving away > puppies (taken from their mother) as another example where nothing > is quite as simple as we'd like to think?" > > It's half an hour since I read that (literally with mouth > dropping open) and I still feel a little disoriented. Not just > because it's true! But because I'd never thought of it before. And > if something so clear hadn't even occured to me on what isn't even > considered an important matter - what else don't I know that I don't > know (if you take my meaning). I think the more you know that you don't know, shows that understanding is actually growing bec I think that's the way understanding works. Before we hear the Dhamma, we have perversion of perception - sanna vipallasa - but we don't know that we have it. When we begin to understand a little more, we begin to see just how 'perverted' it is, but we can't change it, only gradually developing understanding can know more and more. Remember the adze handle sutta, little by little, slowly, slowly. It takes lots and lots of patience, courage and good cheer, Azita. 34017 From: icarofranca Date: Sat Jun 19, 2004 5:32pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Comments to Vis. note 35, health. Hi Larry!!! > Cheer up, you are in the nearly tropical _southern_ Canada. Cast your > eyes northward and see what you can see. Vast rupa! --------------------------------------------------------------------- Yes, Larry!!! I can see it!!! Higher than life, proud, tall, sublime, THE RUPA! The symbol of all true acharya, all true guru... the best companion of all illuminatti of all ages of Humanity. The encarnation of Pure Metta, the condensation of all Panna, the bright living lighthouse to all men and women that tread up the Noble Path... THE STATUE OF BULLWINKLE J. MOOSE AT SUNSET BOULEVARD,CALIFORNIA!!!! Wonderful!!! Awesome!!! Splendid!!!! --------------------------------------------------------------------- Imo, aversion is > not detachment. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Good to hear this for you. Buddha is sometimes very pragmatic in His strategies and even aversion, moosefication,etc, can be useful tools for Him (I hope that´s not any mahayanist or Yakkha near us hearing this... a fiend in need is a fiend indeed!!!) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- - > > Also, the masked man's faithful companion was Tonto, not Toronto. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Damn!!! I used to like Masked Man´s faithful companion!!! But now tranquility had settled over Northern Canada!!!! Niagara falls... and sometimes it doesn´t...HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!! Mettaya, Ícaro > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "icarofranca" > wrote: > > Hi Larry! > > > > > > (Narrator): Toronto - Canada´s second City and name of Masked > Man´s > > Indian partner... > > > > That´s reminds me a post of Rob Epstein about if Buddha sponsored > > true aversion about mundane tratcs. Gautama always stressed the > > necessity for everyone to tread up the Middle Path...but > > sometimes,mainly at the passages concerning the Entry of Stream, > the > > Sotapani must erradicate wrong views and doubts of all Prompted and > > un-prompted states of conscience. That creates de necessary > > detachment for the next steps, Sakadagami and Anagami... > > But in what degree is such detachment a form of aversion and > > repulsion - Akusala states of mind ? > > > > (Narrator): While Larry wonders about the Akusala aspects of life > > contemplating the high pines covered with silver snow at the > Northern > > canadian woods, the trumpet call of the RCMP sounds at distance > > giving to all creatures in the forest a reassuring feeling: the > brave > > Mounties are near!!! Meanwhile... > > > > (Larry) > > > What in the world are you doing in northern Canada??? > > > > (Ícaro):... I am not fond of Toronto...Boo-Hoo-Hoo!!! > > > > Mettaya, Ícaro > > > > > > > > > > > "(Narrator): Northern of Canada, where men are really men and > women > > > too...with the beautiful canadian sun fading down over the River > > Cayuga > > > sparkling golden beams of light to all landscape,the marigolds > > blotting > > > the air with its scent Ícaro is punctuating all the good features > of > > > Kusala to Larry (that hadn't get yet his come-uppance)..." 34018 From: norakat147 Date: Sat Jun 19, 2004 6:28pm Subject: Satipatthana method insight - Goenka Retreat experience Hi All, Its amazing how amplified the experience of the object(s) of your awareness can become after Samadhi is developed. I remember at the 10 day Goenka retreat, where noble silence was observed for the entire ten days, I developed my Samadhi fairly keenly just for that duration. Just to share my experience with you (and everyone): The first 3 days, we spent, developing Samadhi focusing only on the touch of breath on the broad area of the triangular section inside the nose and below the nose above the upper lip. Then as our concentration and persistence developed, we then proceeded to focus our attention on a smaller and smaller area. The smaller and smaller the area, he said, the sharper and more focused becomes your attention. The longer you can keep your attention on the object without interruption, the stronger becomes your persistence of attention. Its amazing how the first day I could barely feel the sensation in my nostrils and not a single sense under my nose; later, this developed (after 3 days of intense sitting) into something like a chimney billowing with smoke. I could feel the warm air coming out of my nose and rising against the sides of my nose, warming the sides of my nose as the air went past. I could feel every hair under my nose wiggle like reeds in the wind as the air passed over it. On the third day, we began leaving our meditation to develop Samadhi and began Vipassana, that is, moving our attention to points and scanning sections on the body. Our first point of awareness was a point right on the top of the head. I was amazed at how the exact point where I focused my attention came alive with all these sensations which I previously did not detect. It amazes me what humans can do when our attention can be focused; the level of discernment which can be achieved. For example, we could be in a noisy cafeteria where people are in an uproar and still discern a single conversation amongst hundreds of voices. We can focus our attention to each person in succession, and as we focus our attention on each person's voice, everybody else's conversation falls into the background. No directed awareness, or intention, and all the conversations in the room turn into an ocean of babble. Our awareness is direct-able, which is controlled by our intention. Wrong intention = wrong objects of our awareness; Right intention (Samma Sankappa) = right objects of our awareness. Most of the entire waking day was spent in sitting meditation for the exception of short rest breaks, meals, and discourse. What I found particularly important was an element they encouraged which they termed "Strong determination." Amongst all the sittings, there were 3 particularly important sittings each day which were to be done with "strong determination". To be specific, "strong determination" meant that before the sitting, you were to make a vow to yourself that you are to sit for the entire hour without moving from the original position in which you started; ... that is, even if your legs were on fire. ...That you were going to put strong effort into the entire sitting hour without interruption into the meditation. This idea of strong determination, I felt, was key to progress. As time went by, my thoughts, sensations and feelings began to scream, rather than being subtle subconscious thoughts, sensations and feelings. I became more aware of the subtle bodily actions I made and the intentions/thoughts behind the actions. I realized when I walked with pride or conceit, I stuck my chest out a little; it was also displayed very subtlety in the way I walked, in the way I carried myself, and in my mannerisms. I realized how my vanity polluted my thoughts and intentions. MY VANITY, that is, my outward display toward others for gain of admiration, good opinion, love, acceptance. I realized when I contemplated dhamma / suttas and vinaya, I was not contemplating for my benefit, but was expending much thought in vanity, as if I myself was the Buddha giving discourse to others and then being patted on the back and thanked in return to those I was giving discourse. I was expending my thoughts in vanity when my thoughts could instead be intent on understanding and penetrating dhamma for myself through investigating reality with my directed awareness and mindfulness. I also realized that sensations are not in themselves, suffering. Suffering is caused by our interpretation of the senses. Just as the same water which can make a person go "Ahhhhhhh, nice!" in the shower, can make the same person say "S#@T!!!, Damn !" when he gets rained on. Same water, same sensation, yet in one case causes pleasure and in the other suffering. Our reaction is a result of `Sankharas' - mind formations. We create our own anger; We create our own suffering. Its amazing how quickly this state of awareness dropped away after we broke noble silence on the last day. We had a final meditation after the day we broke noble silence the previous night and already my level of concentration was gone. ...and after returning to normal life my concentration and level of awareness was even less. "Herein, O bhikkhus, let a brother, as to the body continue to look upon the body ... overcome both the HANKERING AND THE DEJECTION COMMON IN THE WORLD." MAHA SATIPATTHANA SUTTANTA, DIGHA NIKAYA, PALI TEXT SOCIETY, Rhys Davids Back into the world of hankering and dejection. ...Back into the world hankering after livelihood, sensual pleasures, and dejection. Back into the world, I seldom find days, caught up in my hankering and dejection, to practice. --- 40. `Suppose O King, there appears in the world one who has won the truth, an Arahat, a fully awakened one, abounding in wisdom and goodness, happy, who knows all worlds, unsurpassed as a guide to mortals willing to be led, a teacher for gods and men, a Blessed One, a Buddha. He, by himself, thoroughly knows and sees, as it were, face to face, this universe ... and having known it, he makes his knowledge known to others. The truth lovely in its origin, lovely in its progress, lovely in its consummation, doth he proclaim, both in the spirit and the letter, the higher life doth he make known, in all its fullness and in all its purity.' 41. `A householder or one of his children, or a man of inferior birth in any class that listens to that truth; and on hearing it he has faith in the Tathagata (the one who has found the truth); and when he is possessed of that faith, he considers thus within himself: "Full of hindrances is household life, a path for the dust of passion. Free as the air is the life of him who has renounced all worldly things. How difficult is it for the man who dwells at home to live the higher life in all its purity, in all its bright perfection!" -SAMANNA-PHALA SUTTA, DIGHA NIKAYA, PALI TEXT SOCIETY, Rhys Davids with metta, nori 34019 From: norakat147 Date: Sat Jun 19, 2004 6:38pm Subject: What is right view ? How right view ? Right view is a view free from all speculation, free from all imagination, based entirely on direct personal experience. Most people are not aware of the constant thought and imagination which continually corrupts one view so integral to ones thought processes; the intellectualizing, imagining, creating of concepts. You cannot say what is, until you experience what is. Many are driven by vanity, pride and ego to say what is, proclaim what is, before they experience rightly what is. It is better to admit not yet knowing or experiencing so that you still have within you the intention of finding out through earnest investigation / contemplation via observation. If you do not know, then not to know is the right view. Many will read suttas and repeat the words, saying this or that is the case. It is in the Pali Canon so such is the case, having faith in the Blessed Ones words. ... but I think the Blessed One does not want you to have a view based on faith in him. He wants you to discover and validate for yourself the substance of his words. ... and only when you are absolutely certain through your own personal direct observation / experience / witness should you make it your own view. ... and even to this view you should not become attached. metta, nori 34020 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sat Jun 19, 2004 7:24pm Subject: Re: What is right view ? How right view ? Hello Nori, and all, Perhaps it might be difficult to penetrate the Teachings unless one knows, correctly, what they are first? "Experiential right view is the penetration of the truth of the teaching in one's own immediate experience. Thus it is also called right view that penetrates the truths (saccapativedha- sammaditthi). This type of right view is aroused by the practice of insight meditation guided by a correct conceptual understanding of the Dhamma. To arrive at direct penetration, one must begin with a correct conceptual grasp of the teaching and transform that grasp from intellectual comprehension to direct perception by cultivating the threefold training in morality, concentration and wisdom. If conceptual right view van be compared to a hand, a hand that grasps the truth by way of concepts, then experiential right view can be compared to an eye -- the eye of wisdom that sees directly into the true nature of existence ordinarily hidden from us by our greed, aversion and delusion. The Discourse on Right View is intended to elucidate the principles that are to be comprehended by conceptual right view and penetrated by experiential right view." http://www.saigon.com/~anson/ebud/r_view/r_view00.htm metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "norakat147" wrote: > Right view is a view free from all speculation, free from all > imagination, based entirely on direct personal experience. > > Most people are not aware of the constant thought and imagination > which continually corrupts one view so integral to ones thought > processes; the intellectualizing, imagining, creating of concepts. > > You cannot say what is, until you experience what is. > > Many are driven by vanity, pride and ego to say what is, proclaim > what is, before they experience rightly what is. > > It is better to admit not yet knowing or experiencing so that you > still have within you the intention of finding out through earnest > investigation / contemplation via observation. > > If you do not know, then not to know is the right view. > > Many will read suttas and repeat the words, saying this or that is > the case. It is in the Pali Canon so such is the case, having faith > in the Blessed Ones words. > > ... but I think the Blessed One does not want you to have a view > based on faith in him. He wants you to discover and validate for > yourself the substance of his words. > > ... and only when you are absolutely certain through your own > personal direct observation / experience / witness should you make > it your own view. > > ... and even to this view you should not become attached. > > metta, > nori 34021 From: norakat147 Date: Sat Jun 19, 2004 10:21pm Subject: Re: What is right view ? How right view ? Hi christine, Long time, no talk. I took a break from discussion groups for a while. --- christine: > To arrive at direct penetration, one must begin > with a correct conceptual grasp of the teaching and transform that > grasp from intellectual comprehension to direct perception by > cultivating the threefold training in morality, concentration and > wisdom. --- Certainly this is the case. When we read, study and contemplate concepts, this is not speculation. It is when we adhere to them before they are validated, this is speculation. The point I was trying to emphasize is that "Many are driven by vanity (that is, the desire to gain love, good opinion, acceptance, admiration, friendship, love from others), pride (that is, delight in feeling superior to others) and ego to say what is, proclaim what is, before they experience rightly what is. And the other point which I was trying to emphasize is that I see too many people relying on scriptural authority and not enough personal experience for their views. Scripture should remain empty words until understood at the experiential level. I see too many people discussing things, and proclaiming things to each other which they may do with the belief that they're helping each other out and progressing, but is instead clearly a display of vanity, due to them very evidently not experiencing or understanding this truth first hand. With metta, nori --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Hello Nori, and all, > > Perhaps it might be difficult to penetrate the Teachings unless one > knows, correctly, what they are first? > > "Experiential right view is the penetration of the truth of the > teaching in one's own immediate experience. Thus it is also called > right view that penetrates the truths (saccapativedha- > sammaditthi). ---snip 34022 From: gazita2002 Date: Sun Jun 20, 2004 1:14am Subject: Re: What is right view ? How right view ? --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "norakat147" wrote: > Hi christine, > > Long time, no talk. > > I took a break from discussion groups for a while. > > ....snip.... > > And the other point which I was trying to emphasize is that I see too > many people relying on scriptural authority and not enough personal > experience for their views. Scripture should remain empty words until > understood at the experiential level. > > I see too many people discussing things, and proclaiming things to > each other which they may do with the belief that they're helping > each other out and progressing, but is instead clearly a display of > vanity, due to them very evidently not experiencing or understanding > this truth first hand. > > > With metta, > nori Dear Nori, I can understand that after 10 days of hard work at a meditation retreat, and then feeling that you have made much progress must be satisfying for you, and my question to you is how can you be so sure of what other people experience and understand? I do believe that we all have different degrees of understanding and wisdom and that its hard enough to know 'one's own' let alone the others. A recent quote from Howard: 'in reality no-one is doing anything, at any time. Cetana and all the other mental states arise by conditions and perform their functions accordingly. No-one can push or direct them to be any other way'. I think we have to be very careful when we are judging the others, we really have no idea what the others' cittas are at any given time. Patience, courage and good cheer, Azita 34023 From: Herman Hofman Date: Sun Jun 20, 2004 1:41am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: What is right view ? How right view ? Hi Christine and everyone, It is possibly just a matter of semantics, but I would have thought that it is not the Teachings that are to be penetrated, but the nature of reality. I see the Teachings as a guide or method toward this end, not an end in themselves, or to be studied for themselves without constantly checking "is this how it really is". Herman -----Original Message----- From: christine_forsyth [mailto:cforsyth@v...] Sent: Sunday, 20 June 2004 12:25 PM To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Subject: [dsg] Re: What is right view ? How right view ? Hello Nori, and all, Perhaps it might be difficult to penetrate the Teachings unless one knows, correctly, what they are first? 34024 From: nidive Date: Sun Jun 20, 2004 2:19am Subject: Re: [dsg] B.Bodhi's comments on the Susima Sutta, SN 12:70 (10) Hi Mr Tzung-Kuen Wen, > You¡¦re right, it is ¡¥aaruppaa santaa vimokhaa¡¦. But, how do we > know the Pali term ¡¥aaruppaa santaa vimokhaa¡¦ includes > ¡§cessation of perception & felling¡¨ ? The Kitagirisutta sutta > seems not clarify this. Is the term explained in other suttas? I was curious about the word "santaa" and I checked it up in PTS Pali-English dictionary. "Santaa" could mean "peace, bliss, nibbana". Perhaps "arupa santa vimokkha" actually refers to the "cessation of perception & feeling"? I find this to be a very high possibility. According to the Buddha, nibbana is the ultimate peace or bliss. And the "cessation of perception & feeling" provides just that very experience of ultimate peace or bliss here and now while an arahant is still alive. When an arahant attains "cessation of perception & feeling", all bodily, verbal and mental formations cease temporarily. And according to DN 15, it can be inferred that the "cessation of perception & feeling" is an arupa vimokkha. Perhaps because the attainment of the "cessation of perception & feeling" is very similar to parinibbana, that is why an arahant who attains this vimokkha is called "released in both ways"? That is, both here and now, and at death. > If ¡¥aaruppaa santaa vimokhaa¡¦ are proved by suttas as including > ¡§cessation of perception & felling¡¨, people still could argue > otherwise-- The Buddha did not explicitly deny in the sutta the > possibility of PARTIAL ¡§aaruppaa santaa vimokhaa¡¨, so PARTIAL > ¡§aaruppaa santaa vimokhaa¡¨ can¡¦t be rule out without persuasive > reasons. I think a beautiful thing about the nikayas is that we can cross reference between suttas. And such cross referencing is very important in helping us to understand brief statements and phrases. I feel that if we cross reference to DN 15, it is very clear that an arhant is released both ways if and only if the "cessation of perception & feeling" is attained. > I check the Pali texts and find this sutta quite supports your > view that ¡§cessation of perception and feeling¡¨ is the official > criteria. > ... > It is also interesting to look at the Pannavimuttasutta, just next > to the Ubhatobhagavimuttasutta, where Pannavimutta arahant is said > to have ¡§cessation of perception and feeling¡¨ too. Actually, in that vaggo, there are 10 suttas. All of them were preached by Venerable Ananda to Venerable Udayi. It is very interesting to read the first sutta of that vaggo, which talks about obstructions, how the dimension of neither perception & non-perception can be an obstruction, and how one destroys the asavas by overcoming that dimension and attaining the cessation of perception & feeling. It seems that to those who are very adept at the eight jhanas, the eight jhanas and the cessation of perception & feeling is taught. To those less adept, the jhanas from the first rupa jhana up to the dimension of nothingness is taught. To those even less adept, only the four rupa jhanas are taught. ALso, I don't think I know of a sutta where "released in both ways" is mentioned when the "cessation of perception & feeling" is not mentioned too. --------------------------------------------------------------------- http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an09-036.html "Thus, as far as the perception-attainments go, that is as far as gnosis-penetration goes. As for these two spheres -- the attainment of the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception & the attainment of the cessation of feeling & perception -- I tell you that they are to be rightly explained by those monks who are meditators, skilled in attaining, skilled in attaining & emerging, who have attained & emerged in dependence on them." --------------------------------------------------------------------- Regards, Swee Boon 34025 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sun Jun 20, 2004 2:48am Subject: [dsg] Re: What is right view ? How right view ? Hello Herman, all, I'd like to say it was just semantics - however, it was sloppy writing:-). The Dhamma that the Buddha realised at his enlightenment, is in the Teachings he spent forty five years passing on to his disciples. These are recorded in the Tipitaka and basically deal with reality - the true nature of all dhammas. As you say, it is the nature of reality that is to be penetrated. metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Herman Hofman" wrote: > Hi Christine and everyone, > > It is possibly just a matter of semantics, but I would have thought that > it is not the Teachings that are to be penetrated, but the nature of > reality. I see the Teachings as a guide or method toward this end, not > an end in themselves, or to be studied for themselves without constantly > checking "is this how it really is". > > Herman 34026 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Jun 20, 2004 2:48am Subject: Re: Liberated in both ways (was, ¦^ÂСG?^???G...) Dear Tzung-kuen (and Swee Boon) Hello, and welcome to the list from me. I'm following this discussion between yourself and Swee Boon with interest (and with some difficulty!). I find that the expression 'ubhatobhagavimutta' appears in SN 8:7, and in a footnote to this reference in the 'Connected Discourses of the Buddha' translation, Bhikkhu Bodhi says "Those liberated in both ways ('ubhatobhagavimutta') are arahants who attain arahantship along with mastery over the formless meditative attainments." This suggests to me that in Bhikkhu Bodhi's view 'liberated in both' ways refers specifically to the role of the formless meditative attainments (arupa-jhanas) at the moment of attaining arahantship for the person, rather than to all persons who meet the twin criteria of (a) being an arahant and (b) having mastery over the arupa jhanas, since these 2 attributes can be present without the latter having any role in the attainment of arahantship. Is this your understanding also? Jon --- Mr Tzung-Kuen Wen wrote: > Dear Swee Boon > > Thanks for your reply. > > > If we take DN 15 as it is, it should be very clear that an arahant > > is released in both ways if and only if that arahant possesses all > > the eight vimokkhas. > > > > In fact, the criteria for being classified as "released in both > > ways" is the attainment of the "cessation of perception & feeling". > > The critierias showed in the Nikayas themselves for > 'ubhatobhagavimutta' seem to be varied. > In Kitagirisutta (M 1 477,PTS), an arahant who has arupa jhanas is said > to be 'ubhatobhagavimutta'. It seems that in A 4 452-53 even an ariya > who has only 1st jhana can be a ubhatobhagavimutta. > According to Vism, and other Pali commentaries, the criteria for > this is arupajjhana, an arahant who has any of the arupajjanas can be > said to be ubhatobhagavimutta. > > metta > > Tzung-kuen 34027 From: nidive Date: Sun Jun 20, 2004 3:32am Subject: Re: B.Bodhi's comments on the Susima Sutta, SN 12:70 (10) Hi Mr Tzung-Kuen Wen, > ALso, I don't think I know of a sutta where "released in both ways" > is mentioned when the "cessation of perception & feeling" is not > mentioned too. Forgot! Of course, besides Kitagirisutta. > With regard to the question how to interpret phrase ¡§one does > not attain the eight vimokkhas¡¨, do you suggest that the phrase > doesn¡¦t indicate the possibility that one has none of the > vimokkhas? I don't think we can infer such a possibility from this sutta phrase. There is not sufficient surrounding textual evidence for us to infer such a possibility with a good level of confidence. But that doesn't mean that such a possibility doesn't exist which could possibly be supported elsewhere in other suttas. But I think the fact that the Buddha attributes those who experience the eight vimokkhas as "recluses bloomed with a thousand petals" shows the importance that he places on the attainment of the cessation of perception & feeling. --------------------------------------------------------------------- http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an09-041.html [9] "The thought occurred to me: 'What if I, with the complete transcending of the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception, were to enter & remain in the cessation of perception & feeling?' But my heart didn't leap up at the cessation of perception & feeling, didn't grow confident, steadfast, or firm, seeing it as peace. The thought occurred to me: 'What is the cause, what is the reason, why my heart doesn't leap up at the cessation of perception & feeling, doesn't grow confident, steadfast, or firm, seeing it as peace?' Then the thought occurred to me: 'I haven't seen the drawback of the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception; I haven't pursued that theme. I haven't understood the reward of the cessation of perception & feeling; I haven't familiarized myself with it. That's why my heart doesn't leap up at the cessation of perception & feeling, doesn't grow confident, steadfast, or firm, seeing it as peace.' "Then the thought occurred to me: 'If, having seen the drawback of the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception, I were to pursue that theme; and if, having understood the reward of the cessation of perception & feeling, I were to familiarize myself with it, there's the possibility that my heart would leap up at the cessation of perception & feeling, grow confident, steadfast, & firm, seeing it as peace.' "So at a later time, having seen the drawback of the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception, I pursued that theme; having understood the reward of the cessation of perception & feeling, I familiarized myself with it. My heart leaped up at the cessation of perception & feeling, grew confident, steadfast, & firm, seeing it as peace. With the complete transcending of the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception, I entered & remained in the cessation of perception & feeling. And as I saw with discernment, the mental fermentations went to their total end. "Ananda, as long as I had not attained & emerged from these nine step-by-step dwelling-attainments in forward & backward order in this way, I did not claim to have directly awakened to the right self-awakening unexcelled in the cosmos with its devas, Maras, & Brahmas, with its contemplatives & priests, its royalty & common people. But as soon as I had attained & emerged from these nine step-by-step dwelling-attainments in forward & backward order in this way, then I did claim to have directly awakened to the right self-awakening unexcelled in the cosmos with its devas, Maras, & Brahmas, with its contemplatives & priests, its royalty & common people. Knowledge & vision arose in me: 'My release is unshakable. This is the last birth. There is now no further becoming.'" --------------------------------------------------------------------- I think this sutta passage shows lots of similarity with that of the conversation between Venerable Ananda and Venerable Udayi. Regards, Swee Boon 34028 From: Philip Date: Sun Jun 20, 2004 4:50am Subject: Re: What is right view ? How right view ? Hi Nori, and all Nori: >I see too many people discussing things, and proclaiming things to >each other which they may do with the belief that they're helping >each other out and progressing, but is instead clearly a display of >vanity, due to them very evidently not experiencing or understanding >this truth first hand. On the other hand, if you are seeing people without conceit (which is what you mean by vanity, I take it) it means that you have the good fortune to be associating with enlightened ones. Conceit is an unwholesome mental state (cetasika) that will rise and fall away again in a conditioned way until it is eradicated at some stage of enlightnment - I forget which one, but if I recall correctly only the Arahat has completely eradicated conceit. I feel conceit about being able to remind you of this - but at least I'm aware of my conceit. And because conceit, like all conditioned realities, is impermanent and falls away, it can come and go in close proximity to wholesome states free of conceit. I read about this first, and understood it conceptually, and this led to observation of mental states which is easy enough to do at such a crude level. Would I have done so without conceptual understanding? I doubt it. I think it would be very unwise to try to plunge into direct experience without explicit guidance from the Buddha's teaching. You might end up still on the path, but the odds are against it, I would think. And the Buddha's teaching must be understood in conventional terms (ie conceptual) before it can be understood direcly, in my opinion. Metta, Phil 34029 From: Bill Saint-Onge Date: Sun Jun 20, 2004 4:48am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: What is right view ? How right view ? Hi Nori, I read your post with interest. Too much 'scripturizing' and not enough meditation probably does produce a less productive practice, and the vice versa may be true as well: too much meditation and not enough scripture may produce a less effective practice. It seems that the one feeds the other while the other leads the other, and then they switch roles along an unfolding path of discovery and confirmation. Somewhere there is a balance point between 'self'-discovery and following the guidance of a teacher who has been there before. But since we are 'pet-peeving' here :) I'll add mine as well: where is the conversation on any of these sites regarding the practice of morality in our daily lives? I know that I can talk for hours about jhanna this and jhana that and sutta this and sutta that--but why no conversations about the practical implementation of sila? I find this very curious. The Buddha certainly seemed to believe that a discipline of ethics was critical to the path--it's given as the starting point for the path in many traditions, and a mainstay of the practice for even very advanced students. And yet, it's probably not an oversight that these conversations don't occur. There are practical difficulties to having them. For one, I'm not exactly sure how to have such a conversation. For another, there seems to be a sense of uncomfortability with having the conversations, an awkwardness for some reason. Could it be that, in the West at least, our view of Buddhism is so 'monasticized' that meditation and scripture has become buddhism? Could it be that we are for some reason reluctant to talk about morality because it's at that point where morality and ethics intersect our worldy life that the rubber of practice really hits the road of practical living: it's where all the dirty little failures are kept--how we cheated on our federal taxes; kept the two dollors that the check-out girl at the supermarket acidentally gave us as excess change; went to a township planing meeting and argued against a parcel of land being rezoned trailer park because we don't want 'those kind of people' on our tax base; went to a party and drank seven 'tequila slammers?' Maybe it's easier to be pure by being ethereal? I don't know. It's just a very curious disconnect. Respectfully, Bill gazita2002 wrote: --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "norakat147" wrote: > Hi christine, > > Long time, no talk. > > I took a break from discussion groups for a while. > > ....snip.... > > And the other point which I was trying to emphasize is that I see too > many people relying on scriptural authority and not enough personal > experience for their views. Scripture should remain empty words until > understood at the experiential level. > > I see too many people discussing things, and proclaiming things to > each other which they may do with the belief that they're helping > each other out and progressing, but is instead clearly a display of > vanity, due to them very evidently not experiencing or understanding > this truth first hand. > > > With metta, > nori Dear Nori, I can understand that after 10 days of hard work at a meditation retreat, and then feeling that you have made much progress must be satisfying for you, and my question to you is how can you be so sure of what other people experience and understand? I do believe that we all have different degrees of understanding and wisdom and that its hard enough to know 'one's own' let alone the others. A recent quote from Howard: 'in reality no-one is doing anything, at any time. Cetana and all the other mental states arise by conditions and perform their functions accordingly. No-one can push or direct them to be any other way'. I think we have to be very careful when we are judging the others, we really have no idea what the others' cittas are at any given time. Patience, courage and good cheer, Azita 34030 From: agriosinski Date: Sun Jun 20, 2004 5:33am Subject: [dsg] Re: Now, what? --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Herman Hofman" wrote: > Hi Agrios and everyone, Hi Herman. I am glad to see your answer today, I was thinking a lot about your last remarks and example with airport. > I'll start with your last remarks, because I think that is charted > territory. (I've been there) :-) > > You can have absolute confidence that any thought of shoulding, musting, > having to etc is generated by the ego. You can also have absolute > confidence that the ego will never do anything to undermine itself. > So the loop of "I must find out whether I need to do this or that" is > itself an ego-bolstering device. Rather than being that thought, > identifying with it, it is possible to just observe the thought, watch > it come and watch it go. But, I can also observe the observing thought and possibly I can go even deeper into this observation process. This leads me to conclusion, that this is nothing else but self cloning itself just to enjoy the feeling of meditation. In other words, this the same sankhara rooted in the same lobha. It is thought observing other thoughts. Multitasking :) If so, this is nothing else but self mascarading as an owner of meditation progress. There is a clear ownership moment and clear pleasure of this achievement. In fact there shouldn't be anything of this sort if there was no ego involved. > With regards to your first paragraph, I may be misreading you, but it > reads like all thoughts and awarenesses are considered self-views. Is > that what you are saying? Not sure if all thoughts. Technically, there should be possible thought not rooted in ignorance. From my observation, every single thought ever went thru my head was a self-thought. In various degrees, but all of them were and are stained with an idea of myself and strong belive in it. > Self-view doesn't make itself. Like every thought it arises because of > conditions, and ceases because of conditions. Of course it does. Thought can condition another thought and self -view is nothing real, is just a thought. What self does, it JUMPS into every opportunity to manifest its true existence and maintains an illusion, mirage of its important and central existence. Thats my whole point. >At every international > airport these days there is close vigilance and scrutiny of what is > allowed on the plane. It is possible, likewise, to come to see the close > scrutiny and vigilance that is already happening with regards to what is > allowed through the gates to the mind. Very selectively, the passenger > manifest of "house of cards" airlines is being groomed according to the > prevailing policy. > > It is possible to come to see what that policy is. It is also possible to imagine there have to be an airport without any policy. Just go and fly. > It is also possible to tamper with the policy. For a while, make the > policy that nothing gets on board. Observe how plenty of thoughts > present themselves for boarding nonetheless. No need to let them > through. See what presents itself if something slips through. Reaffirm > the policy. Watch the policy change as candidates present themselves > with pressing arguments for boarding. Realize that you have been > watching not-self in action. Or I was watching Self making stronger point about its need to exist. And be happy about it. > > Hope the airline metaphor wasn't too silly :-) I like it. > Herman metta, Agrios 34031 From: agriosinski Date: Sun Jun 20, 2004 5:39am Subject: [dsg] Re: Now, what? [...] > In other words, this the same sankhara rooted in the same lobha. Should be: In other words, this is the same sankhara rooted in the same moha. > Agrios 34032 From: jonoabb Date: Sun Jun 20, 2004 5:59am Subject: [dsg] Formal Sitting or Natural Arising? (was: Re: Video Games?) Hi, Rob Ep and Howard Howard, I agree with your comments here ;-)). Rob, I think the Pali word 'nibbidaa' is a term for kusala of a high degree. In other contexts it refers for example to 'powerful insight knowledge' (Comy to Anguttara Nikaya) or one of the 9 insight knowledges described as follows (CMA IX, 33 Guide): "(5) Knowledge of disenchantment (nibbidaa~naa.na): When he sees all formations as danger, he becomes disenchanted with them, and takes no delight in the field of formations belonging to any realm of existence." Because of the limitations of conventional language, there are quite a number of instances of unwholesome-sounding terms used for wholesome dhammas. As Howard says, we need to consider just the literal meaning and not the conventional connotations. For example, another in the series of 9 insight knowledges just mentioned is: "(3) Knowledge of the fearful (bhaya~naa.na): As the meditator contemplates the dissolution of formations in all three periods of time, he recognizes that all such dissolving things in all realms of existence are necessarily fearful." Regards Jon --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Rob (and Jon) - > > In a message dated 6/19/04 2:33:06 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > epsteinrob@Y... writes: > > > Dear Jon, > > Thanks for these excerpts and explanations. I am surprised to find > > that "revulsion" rather than 'detachment" or "understanding" is > > recommended towards the five aggregates. Why is revulsion necessary > > do you think? I always thought it was an important aspect of the > > Buddha's teaching that both attraction and aversion should be > > released, and revulsion is the most powerful form of aversion. Do you > > have an explanation for this? I find it perplexing, as I always > > thought the Buddha taught that aversion was really a form of > > attachment to the object thus rejected. > > > > Best, > > Robert Ep > > > ============================== > I suspect that the English words such as 'revulsion', 'disgust', > 'disenchantment', and 'disillusionment' that translate Pali terms terms carry > connotations that should be dropped, and merely accept the *literal* meaning of the > terms. What I mean is to adopt the following: > > revulsion = "turning away/back" (due to disinterest, rather than > aversion) > disgust = "lack of taste for or particular interest in" > disenchantment = "being freed of enchantment by/for something" > disillusionment = "being freed of illusion with regard to something" > > With metta, > Howard 34033 From: agriosinski Date: Sun Jun 20, 2004 6:41am Subject: Naming (was Re: Rupas for beginners) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" wrote: > Hi Agrios, Hi Rob, let me make short review: > > > so sati is only possible when the self is dropped > > > out of the picture? > > Any mental state which includes attachment to a view of self must be > > unwholesome (ditthi arises in lobha-mula akusala cittas). > > All worldlings (not yet Sotapanna) still have a latent view of self > > so that, when conditions are suitable, a view of self can arise. In other words, all mental states of common worldlings and not Sotapannas are unwholesome. All at least - almost all. Consequently sati can not arise as long as there is a personality belief. > >At the moment > > of "pure giving", there is sati because, at that moment, the object > > has been seen as it truly is without any distortion from latent > > lobha, latent dosa or latent moha. Now, you say there is sati in the moment of "pure giving". I decided to ask what this pure giving is, since it clearly have to remove personality belief from the picture (no moha) and this would open opportunity for panna to arise for small tiny citta moment. Your answer is: > Each mental state exists for a brief instant and performs a specific > function. When I wrote "pure giving", I wanted to emphasize that I > was referring to the split second when giving was happening, not the > other mental states that might arise close to that event. In reality, > mental states arise and fall so quickly that people sometimes > mistakenly merge discrete events such as "thinking about how much the > gift cost" and "pure giving" into one. Now I understand your latest remarks to the way Buddhism is practiced as a mental exercise and not the way of life. It moved me deeply when I read this remark and now I understand why. Returning to sati. Sati is not to be achieved. It will arise when conditions are present. I will replace all this chaos and confusion and that will be it. The stream will be reached, but no one will reach it. When there is a split second of wholesome deed, they are most precious steps on our way to enlightment. But... there is still self illusion Rob. How there can be any citta without it? And my last question was: > Your last question, "Isn't object (the one to be seen by sati) just a > creation of self? Are there objects outside of thinking?" is > extremely interesting. [...] > Citta is the process of being aware of an object (an activity). Citta > is also that which is aware of an object (an agent). Finally, citta > is the means by which the accompanying mental factors are aware of an > object (an instrument). > The object of a mental state and the mental state itself ( led by > citta) are different. There is a co-dependence, just as three sticks > in a tripod all depend on each other for support, but the object is > not created by the self. I am confused. I know that citta is aware of an object. I don't know what the objects are. [...] > > Metta, > Rob M :-) 34034 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Jun 20, 2004 0:03pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. on Vis. note 35, health. Hi Larry, op 19-06-2004 19:51 schreef Larry op LBIDD@w...: > "'Profitable' in the sense of health, blamelessness, and pleasant > result (see Pm.463)." >> I think it is reasonable to say that kamma produced rupa is kusala, > akusala, or indeterminate. N: Of rupa it is not said that it is kusala or akusala or vipaka. But, as we learnt, kamma is one of the conditions that produces rupa, and thus we can say: it is originated by kamma, physical result of kamma. Vipaka is used only for the mental result of kamma, namely: citta and cetasikas. However, rupa is among the indeterminate dhammas, it is neither kusala nor akusala. L:For example, if I fall and the body is > injured that injury is kamma produced and unhealthy regardless of > whether I am conscious of it or not. N: This is a situation and when we analyse it we should be very precise. The painful bodily feeling is akusala vipaka. Injury: a situation or conventional term. What is experienced through the sense-doors? Those experiences are vipakacittas. We may see colour and after that think of injury. L: Recently you fell while crossing a stream. There was only very minor > injury but your clothing became wet. I would say "wearing wet > clothing" is inherently undesirable.... this is akusala kamma vipaka. The question is whether the rupas > of "wet clothing" could be classed as akusala in the same sense as a > bodily injury. On the one hand you chose those rupas but on the other > hand they are temperature produced rupas. >N: Wet clothing: a situation again. Many different moments of experiencing objects through the senses and thinking about them. Cold: when it is in the body it can be produced by one of the four factors, when outside it is only produced by temperature. The experience of cold is vipakacitta produced by kamma. L Also, I am interested in whatever abhidhamma has to say about mental > health. What is mental health? How is generosity healthy? N: See my previous mail. Generosity is very healthy, at such moments there are no defilements arising, no mental sickness. It is a way of becoming less selfish. If we do not learn to be generous in daily life, how can we ever get rid of the wrong view of self? Nina. 34035 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Jun 20, 2004 0:03pm Subject: Re: [dsg] One doorway for beginners? Hello Philip, op 20-06-2004 00:03 schreef Philip op plnao@j...: quoting Khun Sujin: > > "The beginner is not keen enough to be aware of all objects > which appear. The beginner should begin with one doorway at a time > until he is skillful enough to be able to be aware of any object. The > is the way. One should not try another way and neglect awareness of > the object which appears. The beginner begins to develop right > awareness of the object which appears, that is the duty of the > beginner." > > This is what I've been wanting to do, but held back from > designating a doorway to focus on, having read elsewhere that > attempting to go about it in such a focussed way would be a self- > driven exercise and defeat the purpose. N: The idea is not focussing on a specific doorway. You understood that very well. We cannot predict what sati will be aware of. For some people, of course by conditions, hardness will appear to sati more often, for others sound. If a dhamma appears only through the ears or only through the bodysense, there is no need to worry. We are all beginners. Gradually there will be more types of realities appearing one at a time to the different doorways, but nobody can direct sati. Moreover, it is understanding that matters. A. Sujin used to say: just let sati arise by its own conditions. She also warned us not to measure or evaluate so much the frequency of sati or reason about it. Thinking about the sati that just happened is a kind of holding on and it does not help. Nina. 34036 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Jun 20, 2004 0:03pm Subject: Re: [dsg] oral tradition Dear Tzung Kuen, I appreciate your well documented posts. I just have a few points I would like to comment on. op 20-06-2004 00:24 schreef Mr Tzung-Kuen Wen op s4060239@s...: > Swee Boon: I don't take the VM & commentaries as canonical references. They >> could be wrong. > T. Kuen: Yes, Pali commentators could be wrong. Even the Pali Canon itself could be > wrong. >...(snipped) It¹s difficult to > tell definitely which version is ³right², or is really said by the Buddha. > Given that the Buddhist Canon was co-recited by the disciples after Buddha¹s death and was only orally transmitted down from > generation to generation for more than 200 years, it will be questionable to > take the passages of any set of the Canon to be the spoken words of the > historical Buddha. Furthermore, the language which the Buddha used, probably > old Maagadhii, according to K.R. Norman, is certainly not Pali. (K.R. Norman, > A Philological Approach to Buddhism, p. 62.) N: I remember we had discussions about Maagadhii and Pali on our Pali list. I understood that these were the same. But there are different opinions. As to oral tradition, I wrote before about it to Andrew. When texts are recited in a large group there is so much control, try it out yourself. They were recited in very large groups, hundreds of people. Moreover, those people were outstanding, conscientious, wise and virtuous, they were arahats. To me that is a guarantee. As I wrote to Larry, for my subco to the Visuddhimagga study I have to compare quite a number of texts. I get so impressed about their consistency. Many texts are literally the same. They contain an enormous number of quotes from the Tipitaka. That is what I found out myself. T.Kuen: Though the opinions of Theravadin commentators may sometimes be wrong, I > prefer to consult the Pali commentaries from time to time in that the > doctrines they give are quite beautiful and practical. N: I would always like concrete examples when people say that they are wrong. With Suan's help I entangled one example from a well known scholar. You find the contents beautiful and practical. That can make us think about their source. Nina. 34037 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sun Jun 20, 2004 0:27pm Subject: Ethics in Daily LIfe was([dsg] Re: What is right view ? How right view ?) Hello Bill, and all, Nice to see you here. Good post! I agree somewhat with what you are saying - even though this list often mentions buddhism in daily life - and, indeed that is the title of one of Nina's great books - the discussion can often appear to be an evermore narrowly focused defining of abhidhammic terms, with much quoting and re-quoting of ancient texts, and not much living being done. But I think that is likely to be an incomplete picture. Life is being lived by each of the over 400 members of this group - we live in all areas of the globe, we have endearing/infuriating families, mix with others daily, are in good or ill health, many of us work in stressful jobs, we have relationships, we have admirable and not-so-admirable qualities, and all experience suffering in one form or another. The Buddha's gradual training usually started with teaching Dana (generosity) which then accompanies every step of the way, then the development of Sila (virtue) in the familiar form of the five precept-summary, moving onto Bhavana (mental development) and culminating in the development of Wisdom (panna). Ethics in daily life is of great interest, and I'm sure some of us will be happy to contribute to any thread you start. :-) BTW, occasionally, I do mention dilemmas from my daily work experience - this one was brought to mind by an off-list post from a dhamma friend a day or so ago: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/31771 Any thoughts? metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Bill Saint-Onge wrote: > Hi Nori, > > I read your post with interest. Too much 'scripturizing' and not enough meditation probably does produce a less productive practice, and the vice versa may be true as well: too much meditation and not enough scripture may produce a less effective practice. It seems that the one feeds the other while the other leads the other, and then they switch roles along an unfolding path of discovery and confirmation. Somewhere there is a balance point between 'self'- discovery and following the guidance of a teacher who has been there before. > > But since we are 'pet-peeving' here :) I'll add mine as well: where is the conversation on any of these sites regarding the practice of morality in our daily lives? I know that I can talk for hours about jhanna this and jhana that and sutta this and sutta that- -but why no conversations about the practical implementation of sila? > > I find this very curious. The Buddha certainly seemed to believe that a discipline of ethics was critical to the path--it's given as the starting point for the path in many traditions, and a mainstay of the practice for even very advanced students. > > And yet, it's probably not an oversight that these conversations don't occur. There are practical difficulties to having them. For one, I'm not exactly sure how to have such a conversation. For another, there seems to be a sense of uncomfortability with having the conversations, an awkwardness for some reason. > > Could it be that, in the West at least, our view of Buddhism is so 'monasticized' that meditation and scripture has become buddhism? Could it be that we are for some reason reluctant to talk about morality because it's at that point where morality and ethics intersect our worldy life that the rubber of practice really hits the road of practical living: it's where all the dirty little failures are kept--how we cheated on our federal taxes; kept the two dollors that the check-out girl at the supermarket acidentally gave us as excess change; went to a township planing meeting and argued against a parcel of land being rezoned trailer park because we don't want 'those kind of people' on our tax base; went to a party and drank seven 'tequila slammers?' > > Maybe it's easier to be pure by being ethereal? I don't know. > > It's just a very curious disconnect. > > Respectfully, > > Bill 34038 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sun Jun 20, 2004 2:24pm Subject: Purpose of our Lives Dear Group, Isn't this excerpt from Ven. Anzan Hoshin roshi just a great description of the bodies we value so much? "this skin bag that holds the meat and jellies and sinews and bones. What is it? In the Buddha's Discourses, he points out over and over again that this bodymind is subject to birth, old age, sickness and death. It is filled with fluids and gels. Even if it isn't washed thoroughly, within a few hours it begins to steam off sour smells. It gets cut, it gets burnt. But even if nothing extraordinary happens to it like stepping on a thorn or being spattered with hot cooking oil, it aches and twinges and tires. Work the heavy weight machines, bicycle, row, and ski, do as many calisthenics as you can every day for as many years as you can and still it will sag and droop and bloat and puff and wrinkle. Ovaries become cancerous, prostate glands grow malignant tumours. Memories fade. The eyes weaken. Fits of coughing. Blood in your urine. Blood in your stool. Death. The human body mind is essentially a twenty-four foot tube that is curled up and carried about in a carriage of bones strung together with tendons and upholstered with skin. It has developed a sac of cells mounted at the top, above the entry orifice of the tube, that coordinates the movements of its carriage. It has developed bulges to digest what is dropped into the entry orifice and to circulate fluids and gases that maintain the carriage. What is it for? Everything that it is about happens between the mouth and the anus, dropping stuff in one end and dropping it out the other. Why does it do this? So that it can do it again. Eventually the worm becomes worn out and the bony carriage become rickety and falls over. Then it is goes into the entry orifice of many many other smaller worms. Before it does so, it often maneuvers coupling with other worms in bony carriages which then creates a new worm from bits and pieces of the old ones. Why? So that this way of putting stuff in one end and out the other can go on. And on. And on. Is there a point to all of this? Yes. Putting stuff in one end and dropping it out the other. What is the purpose of all of this? To put stuff in one end and out the other. The human bodymind is not pointed towards any goal. Evolution has no goal. There is no master plan guiding what happens. It all just emerges from interactions from the bottom up. The universe is not arranged to teach you any sort of lesson except how to put stuff in and drop stuff out and to avoid being stuff that is put into something else. You are not here to evolve to a higher plane of consciousness. You are here to eat and shit. Specifically as mammals, we are here to eat little plant tubes and break down their fibers into compost that is useful for the plant tubes in their putting stuff in one end and out the other. Or at least that is the ecological niche we have adapted to filling. It?s not much, but it's a living. In fact, if we want to get grandiose about what the human bodymind is for, I would have you know that it is a member of an elite subset of mammals called predators that keep the population of other mammals under control so that they do not damage the systems of which they are a part. The thing is however, I have heard that structurally, the most perfect predators in design and most efficient at putting stuff in and pushing it out are cats. And, uh, in fact, we are so bloody poor at what we do that we have killed the vast majority of everything on the planet. We have dropped the stuff in and dropped it out. And it seems as if we are up now to our eyebrows in it. And, as a species, sinking. Now, you might think that this is just some horrible story that I am telling you to scare you. Or that I am just joking. I am not joking. Yes, this is a story because I am telling it in a particular way to make certain essential points clear that should be obvious to everyone but tend not to be. But what I am describing in this story is true. You might not want to hear this story. This might be unpleasant to face. You might want to hear instead about Allah or Brahma or the Omega Point or human beings being evolved by the universe so that it can know itself. However, if you do that, you are not only lying to yourself and others but are propagating the kind of delusions that have encouraged us to go forth and multiply and claim mastery over the birds in the air and the beasts in the field. This is all just part of why we have done such a bad job at holding up our end of the ecological niche we once helped support and since have come to have devastated the ecology of the planet as a whole. But, on what might be the bright side for some, at least we still get to drop smaller worms and tubes into our upper orifice and drop them out the other end. The bodymind has no other purpose. It is not about anything else. The universe has no purpose. It is not about anything else. Stars forming from the gathering of gases and eating themselves from the inside out over billions of years, dropping heat and light out their other end into blank space. Insects that live only a few hours. A human lifespan. In and out of the tubes." -Ven. Anzan Hoshin roshi, continuing the teisho, 'Face in the Painting' Reality series of commentaries on Dogen zenji's text 'Gabyo', November 1999 to February 2000. (posted on E-sangha by Anders Honore). metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- 34039 From: icarofranca Date: Sun Jun 20, 2004 4:09pm Subject: [dsg] Re: What is right view ? How right view ? Hi Bill Respectfully butting in... > > I find this very curious. The Buddha certainly seemed to believe >that a discipline of ethics was critical to the path--it's given as >the starting point for the path in many traditions, and a mainstay >of the practice for even very advanced students. Ah... Spring had come to Canada and with it a happiness and contentment settled over the country side! "Ethics", or the so called common virtues, has a western coinage! Buddha was focused on the real questions that plague human existence: his exposition of the path stresses up the purification and retification of mind, putting off all wrong views and doubts... this is not directly connected with Ethics, unless it would be a guide to correct and right effort and way of life. Every aspect of the noble path has its own practices and techniques: sila, Panna and Samadhi...the very advanced techniques as Tantra, for example, are under the Samadhi Set, but it´s not less meritory than others! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > And yet, it's probably not an oversight that these conversations don't occur. There are practical difficulties to having them. For one, I'm not exactly sure how to have such a conversation. For another, there seems to be a sense of uncomfortability with having the conversations, an awkwardness for some reason. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Just imagine the hardness of Buddha´s task, preaching on from village to village...and at índia each village and town has a proper dialect. Fortunately for the Blessed One, the dialect on all the region he wandered was the ardha-Maghadi, with variants! French language is like gold: some canadians has it in their watches...others have in their teeth...but all good canadians must have it on their minds!!!! (You have 1 second to applause me! HAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!!!) -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Could it be that, in the West at least, our view of Buddhism is so 'monasticized' that meditation and scripture has become buddhism? Could it be that we are for some reason reluctant to talk about morality because it's at that point where morality and ethics intersect our worldy life that the rubber of practice really hits the road of practical living: it's where all the dirty little failures are kept--how we cheated on our federal taxes; kept the two dollors that the check-out girl at the supermarket acidentally gave us as excess change; went to a township planing meeting and argued against a parcel of land being rezoned trailer park because we don't want 'those kind of people' on our tax base; went to a party and drank seven 'tequila slammers?' > > Maybe it's easier to be pure by being ethereal? I don't know. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Theravada traditions are monastic at essence, in a strong and direct way... To be ethereal??? Ethereal people could do better hiring a dog team for a sled-pulling contest!!!! Mettaya, Ícaro 34040 From: Herman Hofman Date: Sun Jun 20, 2004 4:26pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Now, what? Hi Agrios, Thank you for your very nice reply. > So the loop of "I must find out whether I need to do this or that" is > itself an ego-bolstering device. Rather than being that thought, > identifying with it, it is possible to just observe the thought, watch > it come and watch it go. A>But, I can also observe the observing thought and possibly I can go even deeper into this observation process. This leads me to conclusion, that this is nothing else but self cloning itself just to enjoy the feeling of meditation. In other words, this the same sankhara rooted in the same lobha. It is thought observing other thoughts. Multitasking :) If so, this is nothing else but self mascarading as an owner of meditation progress. There is a clear ownership moment and clear pleasure of this achievement. In fact there shouldn't be anything of this sort if there was no ego involved. ================================================================ H> What you are pointing out is logically correct. And it doesn't apply only to meditation. You could logically say it about any activity with which there is also awareness of the intention to do that activity. The problem with logic is that you cannot determine the truth of a proposition with logic. You can feed many propositions into a computer, and with infallible logic come out with complete rubbish. The old adage, rubbish in, rubbish out. Now you very well point out further down that self is just a thought. That is a much sounder proposition to feed into the logic machine than the proposition that the self is an independent agent that can do stuff of its own accord. Thoughts, at best, can be the basis for more thoughts, and more thoughts, and more thoughts. And voila, we have thickets of thoughts (that would sound very if pronounced with a lisp :-)) ===================================================================== > With regards to your first paragraph, I may be misreading you, but it > reads like all thoughts and awarenesses are considered self-views. Is > that what you are saying? Not sure if all thoughts. Technically, there should be possible thought not rooted in ignorance. From my observation, every single thought ever went thru my head was a self-thought. In various degrees, but all of them were and are stained with an idea of myself and strong belive in it. > Self-view doesn't make itself. Like every thought it arises because of > conditions, and ceases because of conditions. A>Of course it does. Thought can condition another thought and self -view is nothing real, is just a thought. What self does, it JUMPS into every opportunity to manifest its true existence and maintains an illusion, mirage of its important and central existence. Thats my whole point. ===================================================================== H>That's what happens with discursive thinking when there are false premises being fed in. Now one of the things the Buddha is renowned for is sitting very still, with a focused mind. In this state there is no discursive thinking going on. No logic. No propositions developing into enormous thickets. It is not necessary to study the exact nature of the arrow that is piercing you before you can pull it out, says the Buddha. ====================================================================== >At every international > airport these days there is close vigilance and scrutiny of what is > allowed on the plane. It is possible, likewise, to come to see the close > scrutiny and vigilance that is already happening with regards to what is > allowed through the gates to the mind. Very selectively, the passenger > manifest of "house of cards" airlines is being groomed according to the > prevailing policy. > > It is possible to come to see what that policy is. A>It is also possible to imagine there have to be an airport without any policy. Just go and fly. ======================================================================== H> Sounds like fun, if you were the only one doing it :-) The reality is that you are made to wait on the runway, you need to land with no visibility, you need to fill up with fuel, there's no air way up high etc etc. All the baggage that comes with wanting to be as free as a bird makes prisoners from the need to fly. The Buddha says that eventually the whole flying circus will come to be realised as dukkha. ======================================================================= > It is also possible to tamper with the policy. For a while, make the > policy that nothing gets on board. Observe how plenty of thoughts > present themselves for boarding nonetheless. No need to let them > through. See what presents itself if something slips through. Reaffirm > the policy. Watch the policy change as candidates present themselves > with pressing arguments for boarding. Realize that you have been > watching not-self in action. A> Or I was watching Self making stronger point about its need to exist. And be happy about it. ==================================================================== H> I don't know if Self is a very useful word to describe the cosmic flying circus. It tends to suggest agency of some sort, and I really see no evidence of that anywhere. > > Hope the airline metaphor wasn't too silly :-) A>I like it. ===================== Thanks Herman metta, Agrios 34041 From: Andrew Date: Sun Jun 20, 2004 4:40pm Subject: Ethics in Daily LIfe was([dsg] Re: What is right view ? How right view ?) Hello Bill & Christine Bill wrote: > where is the conversation on any of these sites regarding the > practice of morality in our daily lives? I know that I can talk for > hours about jhanna this and jhana that and sutta this and sutta that- > -but why no conversations about the practical implementation of > sila? > > > > I find this very curious. The Buddha certainly seemed to believe > that a discipline of ethics was critical to the path--it's given as > the starting point for the path in many traditions, and a mainstay > of the practice for even very advanced students. I must confess I haven't really noticed any lack of or shying away from conversation about sila on DSG. If there is an imbalance there, may I suggest 2 possible reasons:- 1. sila pertains largely to action/behaviour. But action is not spontaneous. It is preceded by mental activity/proliferation. The key to understanding our behaviour lies therefore in the workings of our minds. Mind is the forerunner of all things. Whilst acknowledging sila, I personally tend to focus on what the Dhamma tells me about why "I" am behaving the way "I" am - be it morally good or morally bad [mineral water or tequila slammers, you might say! :-)] 2. this is an old chestnut, I know, but it's true: becoming obsessed with following rules of behaviour can become a fetter to understanding. Bill, you say that sila is crucial to the path and I agree with you. Not so long ago, I posted an excerpt from a Wheel publication by Bhikkhu Bodhi in which he explained how the kusala flowing from sila conditions the arising of future opportunities to hear and reflect upon and practice the true Dhamma. If on DSG we are hearing and reflecting upon the true Dhamma, it's good for us to bear in mind that this golden opportunity has arisen because, for example, we left those tequila slammers alone and paid our correct taxes in the past! That's not to say, of course, that if I know I cheated on my tax, I can't use that as an object for wise reflection. BTW ages ago, this list went on and on about a certain member who killed a march fly that was biting him. Was it right or wrong? Rob M and others did a lot of research into the question of killing and shared it with us and I think we all learned a lot about the Dhamma as a result. So please do raise any sila issues you would like to discuss. With best wishes Andrew 34042 From: Philip Date: Sun Jun 20, 2004 4:52pm Subject: Re: Purpose of our Lives Hi Christine, and all Yum. Delicious reading with my morning coffee. These recollections of the inherent foulness of the body are helpful, no doubt about it. I do them every day, especially as I do sit ups in the hopes of having a nice flat belly to show off at the pool this summer. >The bodymind has no other purpose. It is not about >anything else. This is a predictable protest, but what of the energy that is needed to investigate realities? I think even while staying aware of the eventual fate of the body, we can be grateful for good health and energy during the short periods - mere moments in the big picture- during which we have it because it helps us to be a vessel, if you will, for the Buddha's teaching. So yes, a tube full of worms and piss and snot, but also - in brief moments- highly evolved rupa that walks upright and smiles and brings loving kindness out into the world and keeps awareness of the moment as purely as possible. There is something to be celebrated there. I love the roshi's writing - but if I were his editor I'd encourage him to slip in something about brief moments of being shining vessels. If we don't celebrate the wholesome aspects of good health, it's too easy to get caught up in unwholesome aspects. Now back to my quest for paradable abs ;) Metta, Phil --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Dear Group, > > Isn't this excerpt from Ven. Anzan Hoshin roshi just a great > description of the bodies we value so much? > > "this skin bag that holds the meat and jellies and sinews and bones. 34043 From: Date: Sun Jun 20, 2004 5:03pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. on Vis. note 35, health. Hi Nina, Should generosity be performed with an eye toward the mental health of the other? For example, if another wants money, needs money, must have money for the false idea of a body, should we give money and thus feed the desire for money and the false ideas of money and body? Larry 34044 From: Philip Date: Sun Jun 20, 2004 5:10pm Subject: Make an island unto yourself Hello all A verse that puzzled me yesterday in the Dhammapada (XVIII-238- Acharya Buddharakkhita translation) "Make an island unto yourself! Strive hard and become wise! Rid of impurities and cleansed of stain, you shall not come again to brith and decay." Becoming an island sounds to me like wrapping oneself in self. Don't we want to stay open to all realities, to remain exposed to them, to see them as best we can? I suppose it is referring to development of jhanas, in which isolation from sensory stimulation would be necessary. But in daily life in the world, becoming an island would suggest very wrong practice to me. BTW, could anyone link me to a Dhammapada commentary that is available online? Rob K mentionned several when we talked, but I can't affort to buy any books now. Metta, Phil 34045 From: Date: Sun Jun 20, 2004 5:19pm Subject: Vism.XIV 83 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) Ch. XIV 83. I. Herein, the 'profitable' is fourfold according to plane, namely, (A) of the sense sphere, (B) of the fine-material sphere, (C) of the immaterial sphere, and (D) supramundane.(36) I. A. Herein, (1)-(8) that of the 'sense sphere' is eightfold, being classified according to joy, equanimity, knowledge, and prompting, that is to say: (1) when accompanied-by-joy it is either associated-with-knowledge and unprompted, or (2) prompted; or (3) it is dissociated-from-knowledge and likewise [unprompted, or (4) prompted]; and (5) when accompanied-by-equanimity it is either associated-with-knowledge and prompted, or (6) unprompted; or (7) it is dissociated-from-knowledge [453] and likewise [unprompted, or (8) prompted]. ---------------------- Note 36. ' "Sense sphere" (kaamaavacara): here there are the two kinds of sense desire (kaama), sense desire as basis (vatthu-kaama) and sense desire as defilement (kilesa-kaama). Of these, sense desire as [objective] basis particularized as the five cords of sense desire (pa~nca-kaama-gu.na = dimensions of sensual desires), is desired (kaamiyati). Sense desire as defilement, which is craving, desires (kaameti). The sense sphere (kaamavacara) is where these two operate (avacaranti) together. But what is that? It is the elevenfold sense-desire becoming, i.e. hell, asura demons, ghosts, animals, human beings, and six sensual-sphere heavens. So too with the fine-material sphere and the immaterial sphere, taking 'fine-material' as craving for the fine-material too, and 'immaterial' as craving for the immaterial too. It crosses over (uttarati) from the world (loka), thus it is supramundane (lokuttara)' (Pm. 464). 34046 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sun Jun 20, 2004 5:28pm Subject: [dsg] Re: What is right view ? How right view ? Hello Icaro, Out of compassion and metta, put me out of my misery! :-) Are you really in Canada at this moment? Or are you reading a book about Canada, or .... ? If you are there, what are you doing there? in Canada, I mean? Why? Now - whatever you do Icaro, don't go near their railways ... you know your tendency to follow non-existent routes!! :-) Keep on the chamomile tea! cheers, Chris --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "icarofranca" wrote: > Hi Bill > > > Respectfully butting in... > > > > I find this very curious. The Buddha certainly seemed to believe > >that a discipline of ethics was critical to the path--it's given as > >the starting point for the path in many traditions, and a mainstay > >of the practice for even very advanced students. > > > Ah... Spring had come to Canada and with it a happiness and > contentment settled over the country side! > "Ethics", or the so called common virtues, has a western coinage! > Buddha was focused on the real questions that plague human existence: > his exposition of the path stresses up the purification and > retification of mind, putting off all wrong views and doubts... this > is not directly connected with Ethics, unless it would be a guide to > correct and right effort and way of life. > Every aspect of the noble path has its own practices and > techniques: sila, Panna and Samadhi...the very advanced techniques as > Tantra, for example, are under the Samadhi Set, but it´s not less > meritory than others! > > ------------------------------------------------------------------- --- > > > > And yet, it's probably not an oversight that these conversations > don't occur. There are practical difficulties to having them. For > one, I'm not exactly sure how to have such a conversation. For > another, there seems to be a sense of uncomfortability with having > the conversations, an awkwardness for some reason. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------- --- > > Just imagine the hardness of Buddha´s task, preaching on from > village to village...and at índia each village and town has a proper > dialect. Fortunately for the Blessed One, the dialect on all the > region he wandered was the ardha-Maghadi, with variants! > French language is like gold: some canadians has it in their > watches...others have in their teeth...but all good canadians must > have it on their minds!!!! > > (You have 1 second to applause me! HAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!!!) > > ------------------------------------------------------------------- - > > > > > Could it be that, in the West at least, our view of Buddhism is > so 'monasticized' that meditation and scripture has become buddhism? > Could it be that we are for some reason reluctant to talk about > morality because it's at that point where morality and ethics > intersect our worldy life that the rubber of practice really hits the > road of practical living: it's where all the dirty little failures > are kept--how we cheated on our federal taxes; kept the two dollors > that the check-out girl at the supermarket acidentally gave us as > excess change; went to a township planing meeting and argued against > a parcel of land being rezoned trailer park because we don't > want 'those kind of people' on our tax base; went to a party and > drank seven 'tequila slammers?' > > > > Maybe it's easier to be pure by being ethereal? I don't know. > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------- -- > > Theravada traditions are monastic at essence, in a strong and > direct way... To be ethereal??? Ethereal people could do better > hiring a dog team for a sled-pulling contest!!!! > > Mettaya, Ícaro 34047 From: Date: Sun Jun 20, 2004 5:54pm Subject: Canada/Jim/Icaro Icaro!!! If you see Jim (the Pali guy) up there, tell him we miss him. Larry! 34048 From: norakat147 Date: Sun Jun 20, 2004 6:08pm Subject: Re: What is right view ? How right view ? hi azita, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "gazita2002" wrote: ... and my question to you is how can you be > so sure of what other people experience and understand? ... I think we have to be very careful when we are judging the > others, we really have no idea what the others' cittas are at any > given time. > > Patience, courage and good cheer, > Azita When I wrote this I had in mind some past discussions I have read and this was very seemingly the case from the content of disussion, but you right, I can't be sure about that; I take back my conviction. I just wanted to remind others how the mind process of creating an outward display for others hinders progression in investigation toward realization. Due to ones ego, they can remain very hidden to oneself. Even concious of them, these processes still remain in my mind as well, and I have yet to root them out. with metta, nori 34049 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sun Jun 20, 2004 6:10pm Subject: Re: Make an island unto yourself Hi Phil, Here are a couple of links: Ven. Narada Thera's translations and stories: http://www.buddhistvihara.com/online/narada/ The word "diipam" can be translated as either 'lamp' or 'island' and there is an echo here of the Blessed One's last words to Aananda. (DN16) " Now I am frail, Ananda, old, aged, far gone in years. This is my eightieth year and my life is spent... Therefore, Ananda, be an island to yourself, a refuge to yourself, seeking no external refuge; with Dhamma as your island, Dhamma as your refuge, seeking no other refuge. And how, Ananda, is a monk an island to himself, a refuge to himself, seeking no external refuge; with Dhamma as his island, Dhamma as his refuge, seeking no other refuge? When he dwells contemplating the body in the body, earnestly, clearly comprehending, and mindfully, after having overcome desire and sorrow in regard to the world, then, truly, he is an island to himself, a refuge to himself, seeking on external refuge; having Dhamma as his island and refuge, seeking no other refuge..." Love the pictures in this one, by Ven. W. Sarada Thero: http://www.buddhanet.net/dhammapada/ metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Philip" wrote: > > > Hello all > > A verse that puzzled me yesterday in the Dhammapada (XVIII-238- > Acharya Buddharakkhita translation) > > "Make an island unto yourself! Strive hard and become wise! Rid of > impurities and cleansed of stain, you shall not come again to brith > and decay." > > Becoming an island sounds to me like wrapping oneself in self. > Don't we want to stay open to all realities, to remain exposed to > them, to see them as best we can? I suppose it is referring to > development of jhanas, in which isolation from sensory stimulation > would be necessary. But in daily life in the world, becoming an > island would suggest very wrong practice to me. > > BTW, could anyone link me to a Dhammapada commentary that is > available online? Rob K mentionned several when we talked, but I > can't affort to buy any books now. > > Metta, > Phil 34050 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sun Jun 20, 2004 6:57pm Subject: Re: Purpose of our Lives Hi Phil, and all, Well, as it happens, there was a little more in the original excerpt that I left off as not pertinent to the foulness of the body post. I include it below: "But the nested hierarchy of knowings that are gathered as this bodymind have developed systems of knowing such as seeing, hearing, touching, tasting, smelling, thinking, and feeling. These developed as means to gather stuff that could be dropped in and dropped out. But they are so bright. With them we can take care of each other. We can show some interest in the stuff we drop into our upper opening and be able to learn from this. We can create and listen to music. We can stand and walk and sit and lie down with dignity. We can dance. We can paint. We can do all of this and more. Within each of these modes of knowing, the knowns light up the space of that knowing. Colours and forms call out the brilliance of seeing. Sounds light up the space of hearing. Although this bodymind was not designed for it or created to do it, it is capable of Waking Up to the Knowing that is radiant as all knowings and knowns." Ven. Anzan Hoshin roshi metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Philip" wrote: > > Hi Christine, and all > > Yum. Delicious reading with my morning coffee. > These recollections of the inherent foulness of the body are > helpful, no doubt about it. I do them every day, especially as I do > sit ups in the hopes of having a nice flat belly to show off at the > pool this summer. > > >The bodymind has no other purpose. It is not about > >anything else. > > This is a predictable protest, but what of the energy that is > needed to investigate realities? I think even while staying aware of > the eventual fate of the body, we can be grateful for good health and > energy during the short periods - mere moments in the big picture- > during which we have it because it helps us to be a vessel, if you > will, for the Buddha's teaching. So yes, a tube full of worms and > piss and snot, but also - in brief moments- highly evolved rupa that > walks upright and smiles and brings loving kindness out into the > world and keeps awareness of the moment as purely as possible. There > is something to be celebrated there. I love the roshi's writing - but > if I were his editor I'd encourage him to slip in something about > brief moments of being shining vessels. If we don't celebrate the > wholesome aspects of good health, it's too easy to get caught up in > unwholesome aspects. Now back to my quest for paradable abs ;) > > Metta, > Phil > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" > wrote: > > Dear Group, > > > > Isn't this excerpt from Ven. Anzan Hoshin roshi just a great > > description of the bodies we value so much? > > > > "this skin bag that holds the meat and jellies and sinews and > bones. 34051 From: Herman Hofman Date: Sun Jun 20, 2004 7:12pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: What is right view ? How right view ? Hi Bill, Nice to be reading you in these parts :-) I have read elsewhere and it has been alluded to in some replies already, that the purpose of sila is the calming of the mind, as preparation for insight. I like that very much. It makes ethics a functional business. It would be interesting to discover for oneself how much of behaviour that is aspired to is aspired to because it is taught/learnt (with or without the threat of pain and guilt, now or in the future), and how much behaviour is aspired to because there is an actual realisation that falling short of the aspired mark is causing suffering and/or preventing liberation from suffering. I think it is entirely possible to strive to live within the letter of the law, and still remain barren and fruitless soil for any liberative seed. You mention the paying of taxes. All the statutes, laws and regulations of a single modern, populous democracy would require many wall-to wall bookshelves to house. A person inclined to become a model citizen would end up in the nuthouse, firstly through making him/herself aware of all that is required, and secondly through trying to reconcile the multitude of contradictions contained within all those voluminous tomes. I personally think there is a problem with paying taxes in a modern, war-like democracy, when you know full well what the money is being used for. Herman -----Original Message----- From: Bill Saint-Onge [mailto:armyponcho_dot_dad@y...] Sent: Sunday, 20 June 2004 9:48 PM To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.co} Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: What is right view ? How right view ? Hi Nori, I read your post with interest. Too much 'scripturizing' and not enough meditation probably does produce a less productive practice, and the vice versa may be true as well: too much meditation and not enough scripture may produce a less effective practice. It seems that the one feeds the other while the other leads the other, and then they switch roles along an unfolding path of discovery and confirmation. Somewhere there is a balance point between 'self'-discovery and following the guidance of a teacher who has been there before. But since we are 'pet-peeving' here :) I'll add mine as well: where is the conversation on any of these sites regarding the practice of morality in our daily lives? I know that I can talk for hours about jhanna this and jhana that and sutta this and sutta that--but why no conversations about the practical implementation of sila? I find this very curious. The Buddha certainly seemed to believe that a discipline of ethics was critical to the path--it's given as the starting point for the path in many traditions, and a mainstay of the practice for even very advanced students. And yet, it's probably not an oversight that these conversations don't occur. There are practical difficulties to having them. For one, I'm not exactly sure how to have such a conversation. For another, there seems to be a sense of uncomfortability with having the conversations, an awkwardness for some reason. Could it be that, in the West at least, our view of Buddhism is so 'monasticized' that meditation and scripture has become buddhism? Could it be that we are for some reason reluctant to talk about morality because it's at that point where morality and ethics intersect our worldy life that the rubber of practice really hits the road of practical living: it's where all the dirty little failures are kept--how we cheated on our federal taxes; kept the two dollors that the check-out girl at the supermarket acidentally gave us as excess change; went to a township planing meeting and argued against a parcel of land being rezoned trailer park because we don't want 'those kind of people' on our tax base; went to a party and drank seven 'tequila slammers?' Maybe it's easier to be pure by being ethereal? I don't know. It's just a very curious disconnect. Respectfully, Bill 34052 From: Mr Tzung-Kuen Wen Date: Sun Jun 20, 2004 8:11pm Subject: ¦^ÂСG[dsg] Re: Liberated in both ways(was, ¦^ÂСG?^???G...) Dear Jon > Hello, and welcome to the list from me. Thanks. > This suggests to me that in Bhikkhu Bodhi's view 'liberated in > both' ways > refers specifically to the role of the formless meditative attainments > (arupa-jhanas) at the moment of attaining arahantship for the person, > rather than to all persons who meet the twin criteria of (a) being an > arahant and (b) having mastery over the arupa jhanas, since these 2 > attributes can be present without the latter having any role in the > attainment of arahantship. > > Is this your understanding also? I think Ven Bhikkhu Bodhi here follows the interpretation of Pali commentaries where an arahant who has attained (any one of ) the formless attainemnt is called an ubhatobhagavimutta, "one liberated in both ways" while the arahants who do not have any formless attainment is called pa~n~naavimutta, "one liberated by wisdom". metta Tzung-kuen 34053 From: Mr Tzung-Kuen Wen Date: Sun Jun 20, 2004 8:17pm Subject: ¦^ÂСG[dsg] Re: B.Bodhi's comments on the Susima Sutta, SN 12:70 (10) Dear Swee Boon > I don't think we can infer such a possibility from this sutta phrase. > There is not sufficient surrounding textual evidence for us to infer > such a possibility with a good level of confidence. Thanks a lot. Actually, in the Abhidhamma texts of Sarvastivada, the cretia for ubhatobhagavimutta is exactly, as you suggest, the attainment of cessation of perception and feeling. This is different from the opinion of Theravada commentaries. metta Tzungkuen 34054 From: Mr Tzung-Kuen Wen Date: Sun Jun 20, 2004 8:42pm Subject: ¦^ÂСGRe: [dsg] B.Bodhi's comments on the Susima Sutta, SN 12:70 (10) Dear Swee Boon > Perhaps because the attainment of the "cessation of perception > & feeling" is very similar to parinibbana, that is why an arahant > who attains this vimokkha is called "released in both ways"? That > is, both here and now, and at death. Your interpretation is interesting, while the commentaries says "in both ways" refers to vipassana attainment and samatha attainment. > I think a beautiful thing about the nikayas is that we can cross > reference between suttas. And such cross referencing is very > important in helping us to understand brief statements and phrases. > I feel that if we cross reference to DN 15, it is very clear that > an arhant is released both ways if and only if the "cessation of > perception & feeling" is attained. Thanks, I understand your point. DN 15 is much probably use the cessation of perception of feeling as the cretia for ubhatobhagavimutta. But DN 15 does not equate 8 vimokkha with the cessation of perception and feeling which is only the top of them, and the sutta doesn't explain what if one doesn't attain the 8 vimokkhas. This, I think, makes room for different interpretations. In your opinion, what is the meaning when the sutta says 'one does not attian the 8 vimokkhas' ? Does he attain jhanas? Or we need to cross reference with more other suttas? metta Tzungkuen 34055 From: Robert Epstein Date: Sun Jun 20, 2004 9:36pm Subject: [dsg] Formal Sitting or Natural Arising? (was: Re: Video Games?) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > Hi, Rob Ep and Howard > > Howard, I agree with your comments here ;-)). Thanks to both of you for your comments, which present a reasonable possibility as to what the Buddha meant. I hadn't thought of the idea that these terms might have a more generic meaning, and I would be interested if any of the Pali scholars have a view about how the terms are translated. Best, Robert Ep. > Rob, I think the Pali word 'nibbidaa' is a term for kusala of a high degree. In other > contexts it refers for example to 'powerful insight knowledge' (Comy to Anguttara > Nikaya) or one of the 9 insight knowledges described as follows (CMA IX, 33 Guide): > "(5) Knowledge of disenchantment (nibbidaa~naa.na): When he sees all formations > as danger, he becomes disenchanted with them, and takes no delight in the field of > formations belonging to any realm of existence." > > Because of the limitations of conventional language, there are quite a number of > instances of unwholesome-sounding terms used for wholesome dhammas. As > Howard says, we need to consider just the literal meaning and not the > conventional connotations. > > For example, another in the series of 9 insight knowledges just mentioned is: > "(3) Knowledge of the fearful (bhaya~naa.na): As the meditator contemplates the > dissolution of formations in all three periods of time, he recognizes that all such > dissolving things in all realms of existence are necessarily fearful." > > Regards > Jon > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > > Hi, Rob (and Jon) - > > > > In a message dated 6/19/04 2:33:06 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > > epsteinrob@Y... writes: > > > > > Dear Jon, > > > Thanks for these excerpts and explanations. I am surprised to find > > > that "revulsion" rather than 'detachment" or "understanding" is > > > recommended towards the five aggregates. Why is revulsion necessary > > > do you think? I always thought it was an important aspect of the > > > Buddha's teaching that both attraction and aversion should be > > > released, and revulsion is the most powerful form of aversion. Do you > > > have an explanation for this? I find it perplexing, as I always > > > thought the Buddha taught that aversion was really a form of > > > attachment to the object thus rejected. > > > > > > Best, > > > Robert Ep > > > > > ============================== > > I suspect that the English words such as 'revulsion', 'disgust', > > 'disenchantment', and 'disillusionment' that translate Pali terms terms carry > > connotations that should be dropped, and merely accept the *literal* meaning of > the > > terms. What I mean is to adopt the following: > > > > revulsion = "turning away/back" (due to disinterest, rather than > > aversion) > > disgust = "lack of taste for or particular interest in" > > disenchantment = "being freed of enchantment by/for something" > > disillusionment = "being freed of illusion with regard to something" > > > > With metta, > > Howard 34056 From: Mr Tzung-Kuen Wen Date: Sun Jun 20, 2004 10:20pm Subject: ¦^ÂСGRe: [dsg] oral tradition Dear Near Thanks a lot for your comments, which are always good to read. I like very much Pali and Theravadin tradition (including its Abhidhamma and commentarial texts), which I chose to learn and follow in my all life. (In Taiwan, it's quite easy to find the monasteries of Chinese and Tibetan Buddhism, while there are only less than 5 Theravada monasteries across the country) > N: I remember we had discussions about Maagadhii and Pali on our > Pali list. I understood that these were the same. But there are different > opinions. I know nothing about Maagadhii, I could only rely on the opinions of linguisticians. Surely, they may be worng too. > As to oral tradition, I wrote before about it to Andrew. When texts are > recited in a large group there is so much control, try it out > yourself. They were recited in very large groups, hundreds of people. Moreover, those > people were outstanding, conscientious, wise and virtuous, they were > arahats. To me that is a guarantee. I understand, accordint to Theravada and other early Buddhist schools, at the first two (or three) sanghayanas, the Buddhist Canon was recited by arahants. This is a good guarantee. When we survey the existing Buddhist Canons, especially the Nikayas/Agamas, of different schools, we indeed find most of them are the same or similar. Considering the distance of space and time, it's really marvelous. But there are still quite a few differencs, the Susimasutta I mentioned in the letter to Ven Bodhi Bhikkhu is a example. For example, the Pali and Mahasanghika versions of Susimasutta do nt mention whether or not the arahants with whom Susima talks attain the rupa jhanas, while the Saravastivada version clearly says those arahants didn't even attain the first jhana. The Pali and Saravastivada versions both say that this story happened in the Kalandakanivape Veluvane, while the Mahasanghika version says it happened in the Jetavana. The Pali version says Susima approached Ananda first, whom then lead Susima to see the Buddha. But, the Saravastivada version says Susima directly approach the Buddha and the later let other bhikkhus ordain Susima. The Mahasanghika version provides another story,where Susima approachs certain bhikkhus to get ordained, these bhikkhus themselve let susima undergo a 4-month probation period and after that they ordain Susima by themselves, without mentioning the Buddha or Ananda. There are more other differences in this story. Of course, some differents are trifles, but they are still different. When these existing suttas differe one another, it's difficult to say definitely which is the original version recited immediately after the death of the Buddha. These differences, I believe, of course does not derive from the first/second sanghayanas which are most probably held by arahants, but something must have happened in the processes of the tramisssion of the Canon by different early schools including Theravada tradition, otherwise there must be only one version of Buddhist Canon. > As I wrote to Larry, for my subco to the Visuddhimagga study I > have to compare quite a number of texts. I get so impressed about their > consistency.Many texts are literally the same. They contain an > enormous number of quotes from the Tipitaka. That is what I found out myself. Yes, the Pali Canon is quite consistent itself. I find difficulty only when compared with other versions of Buddhist Canon. I like your translation of Vism-mht very much, but I only got two posts about them one or two days ago. Where to get the old posts on Vism-mht ? > I prefer to consult the Pali commentaries from time to time in > that the > > doctrines they give are quite beautiful and practical. > N: I would always like concrete examples when people say that they are > wrong. With Suan's help I entangled one example from a well known > scholar. I never try to find the mistakes, if any, of commentaries. (But I foud Ven Bodhi Bhikkhu in his English translation of SN disagrees with the interpretations of commentaries on quite a few occasions) It's a good opportunity to ask for your opinon about the sukkhavipassaka. Since a lot of Western scholars suggest that there is no evidence in the Pali Canon/Nikayas for sukkhavipassaka, this implies that they seem to think the commentarial explanation of the arahants in Susimasutta as arahants having no jhana is not in line with the Nikayas. What is you suggestion about this ? with metta Tzung-kuen 34057 From: kenhowardau Date: Sun Jun 20, 2004 10:29pm Subject: [dsg] Re: What is right view ?/ Now Ethics in daily life Hi Bill, Welcome to dsg. --------------------- B: > Could it be that we are for some reason reluctant to talk about morality > ---------------------- I know what you mean, but, in another sense, dsg is constantly talking about morality. We ask; "What, ultimately, constitutes morality? What are its near and far enemies? How is it conditioned? How is it different from conventional, illusory, morality?" ---------------------- B: > because it's at that point where morality and ethics intersect our worldy life that the rubber of practice really hits the road of practical living: it's where all the dirty little failures are kept-- how we cheated on our federal taxes; kept the two dollors that the check-out girl at the supermarket acidentally gave us as excess change; went to a township planing meeting and argued against a parcel of land being rezoned trailer park because we don't want 'those kind of people' on our tax base; went to a party and drank seven 'tequila slammers?' > -------------- Questions like those arise when we discuss the difference between ultimate and illusory morality. There is no telling what is right or wrong in the conventional world. When we find a good home for a puppy, we separate it from its mother: when we remove an exotic Sulphur-crested cockatoo from a native wildlife habitat, we cause pain and suffering. Nothing is clear-cut, not even murder, which is clouded by self-defence, provocation, diminished responsibility and so on. In the unclouded, ultimate reality taught by the Buddha, there is not the slightest ambiguity: kusala is kusala and akusala is akusala: the former brings desirable results, and the latter, undesirable. Kusala and akusala are properties of namas, which experience an object, whereas desirable and undesirable are properties of sense objects, which are rupas and don't experience anything. Direct understanding of namas and rupas is the key to morality -- as it is to enlightenment. Ken O told us recently, "It is more important to know nama from rupa than it is to know kusala from akusala." Looking forward to more on this subject from you, Bill, we can't get enough of it. :-) Kind regards, Ken H --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Bill Saint-Onge wrote: > Hi Nori, > > I read your post with interest. Too much 'scripturizing' and not enough meditation probably does produce a less productive practice, and the vice versa may be true as well: 34058 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Jun 20, 2004 11:42pm Subject: Bodhi: The Jhaanas and the Lay Disciple According to the Paali Suttas (6) The Jhaanas and the Lay Disciple According to the Paali Suttas Ven. Bhikkhu Bodhi Jhaana and the Attainment of Stream-entry (4) The Nikaayas themselves nowhere explain exactly what is meant by the concentration gained by "having made release the object" (vossaggaaramma.na.m karitvaa), but they do elsewhere suggest that release (vossagga) is a term for Nibbaana.[14] The Commentary interprets this passage with the aid of the distinction between mundane (lokiya) and supramundane (lokuttara) concentration: the former consists in the form-sphere jhaanas (and the access to these jhaanas), the latter in the supramundane jhaanas concomitant with the supramundane path.[15] On the basis of this distinction, the Commentary explains "the concentration that makes release the object" as the supramundane concentration of the noble path arisen with Nibbaana as object.[16] Thus if we feel obliged to interpret the faculty and power of concentration in the light of the jhaana formula, we might go along with the Commentary in regarding it as the supramundane jhaana pertaining to the supramundane path and fruit. However, we need not agree with the Commentaries in taking the expression "having made release the object" so literally. We might instead interpret this phrase more loosely as characterizing a concentration aimed at release, that is, directed towards Nibbaana.[17] Then we can understand its referent as the concentration that functions as the basis for insight, both initially in the preparatory phase of practice and later in immediate conjunction with insight. This would allow us to ascribe to the noble disciple a degree of concentration strong enough to qualify as a faculty without compelling us to hold that he must possess jhaana. Perhaps the combined definition of the concentration faculty in SN 48:10 is intended to show that two courses are open to disciples. One is the route emphasizing strong concentration, along which one develops the jhaanas as the faculty of concentration; the other is the route emphasizing insight, along which one develops concentration only to the degree needed for insight to arise. This concentration, though falling short of jhaana, could still be described as "concentration that makes release its object." ****** Notes 14. Throughout the Magga-sa.myutta, the expression vossagga-pari.naami, "maturing in release," is used to describe the factors of the Noble Eightfold Path. This suggests that vossagga, as the goal of the path, is Nibbaana. 15. Below I will elaborate on the distinction between the form-sphere and supramundane jhaanas. 16. Spk III 234, commenting on SN 48:9. 17. Pa.tis-a III 586-87 seems to take this tack in commenting on the expression thus: "Having as object release: here release is Nibbaana, for Nibbaana is called release because it is the releasing of the conditioned, its relinquishment. Insight and the phenomena associated with it have Nibbaana as object, Nibbaana as support, because they are established on Nibbaana as their support in the sense of slanting towards it by way of inclination. Concentration is nondistraction distinguished into access and absorption (upacaarappanaabhedo avikkhepo), consisting in the one-pointedness of mind aroused by being established on Nibbaana, with that as cause by taking as object release of the phenomena produced therein. Concentration partaking of penetration (nibbedhabhaagiyo samaadhi), aroused subsequent to insight, is described." From this, it seems that "concentration having release as its object" can be understood as a concentration aroused through the practice of insight meditation, aiming at the attainment of Nibbaana. 34059 From: Herman Hofman Date: Sun Jun 20, 2004 11:44pm Subject: RE: [dsg] oral tradition Hi Nina, Long time no type :-). I hope that you and yours are well. You wrote: N: I remember we had discussions about Maagadhii and Pali on our Pali list. I understood that these were the same. But there are different opinions. As to oral tradition, I wrote before about it to Andrew. When texts are recited in a large group there is so much control, try it out yourself. They were recited in very large groups, hundreds of people. Moreover, those people were outstanding, conscientious, wise and virtuous, they were arahats. To me that is a guarantee. ============================================ If I started to think that it was of vitally critical importance that I had the exact verbatim transcripts of everything the Buddha said, or that otherwise I would be wandering through samsara forever, I would become a nervous wreck :-). I am happy that you are satisfied that you have a very accurate record of what was said, but I feel no such assurance. But, happily, I do not think it is that important an issue. You talk about the recitation of the texts in groups of hundreds of people (500 comes up a lot of times in the texts - to me it is figurative language). Unless these same hundreds were all present each time the Buddha spoke his living words, what is it that was jointly remembered and recited? The suttas depict the Buddha in solitude, addressing individuals, small groups, medium groups and large groups, variously composed of lay people, monks, nuns, royalty, devas, you name it. When did he speak in the company of the same large groups of saints with impeccable memories? Your guess is as good as mine. It takes less mental gymnastics to accept that what was remembered and recited had already been cast into a mould of tradition, rather than accepting that we have the living words of the Master before us. The value of each teaching, to me, lies not in its historical authenticity. A teaching comes to life when, on following its advice, it gives rise to the fruit it said it would. Herman 34060 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Jun 21, 2004 0:55am Subject: Re: [dsg] Canada/Jim/Icaro Hi Larry (Icaro & Christine), --- LBIDD@w... wrote: > Icaro!!! > > If you see Jim (the Pali guy) up there, tell him we miss him. .... S: I'll also pass it on when I next have contact. At the moment, Jim is having his second cataract surgery in Orillia (the nearest town) outise Toronto. I'm not sure if you're aware, but he has serious sight and hearing difficulties. Before he left we had a brief exchange about Buddhaghosa and Vism editions which may be of interest to Christine who raised it, I think. (Jim stressed he was away from his books when he replied): S to Jim:> Btw, quick qu - Vism editions, i.e Sinhalese,Thai, > Burmese and esp with regards the postcript, part a) in > all editions and part b) verses only in sinhalese > edition re Buddhaghosa -- do you have any comments? It > came up recently on list. (i.e whether or not > Buddhaghosa was an arahant or not according to these). ..... Jim: >I remember this came up on D-L years ago by someone wanting to prove that Buddhaghosa was only a puthujjana. I don't dispute this as I believe there is a prediction in the Mahava.msa about him being the next Buddha, Metteyya. Maybe too early for him to be an ariyapuggala when he wrote the Vism.< ..... [S: Jimwould be referring to these lines (Cv,37.241): "...Then the bhikkhus read out al the three books together. Neither in composition and content, nor also as regards the sequence (of the subjects), in the teaching of the Theras, in the quotations, in words and sentences was there any kind of deviation in all three books. Then the community satisfied and exceedingly well pleased, cried again and again; 'without doubt this is Metteyya!' and handed over to him the books of the three Pitakas together with the commentary. Then dwelling in the Ganthakara-vihara which lies far from all unquiet intercourse, he rendered the whole of the Sinhala commentaries into the tongue of the Magadhas, the original speech of all. for beings of all tongues this (rendering) became a blessing and all the teachers of the Theravada accepted it as the original text....." A little earlier in the same text (37.228), we read: " '..The commentary in the Sihala tongue is faultless. The wise Mahinda who tested the tradition laid before the three Councils as it was preached by the Perfectly Enlightened one and taught by Sariputta and the others, wrote it in the Sihala tongue and it is spread among the Sihalas. Go thither (to Buddhaghosa), learn it and render it into the tongue of the Magadhas. It will bring blessing to the whole world.' Thus addressed, the *wise* (Buddhaghosa) sallied forth joyful in the faith and entered the Island just in the time of this King (Mahanama)." Personally, if we follow the scanty information available such as the postscript in Vism and the Mahavamsa, I think he clearly was an ariyan but not an arahant because: a) references in several sources to rebirrth in Tavatimsa realm b) references to his wisdom in several sources such as the one above. Also, a little earlier in this part of the Mahavamsa, we read (Cv 37,223): "As the Brahmana (Buddhaghosa) craved for the sayings he underwent the ceremony of world-renunciation and learnt the Tipitaka. He recognised: this path leads alone to the goal, and accepted it thereafter. As his speech was profound like that of the Buddha, he was called Buddhaghosa; for his speech (resounded) through the earth like (that of the) Buddha." {'speech in pali is 'ghosa'}] ..... S to Jim: > p.s We've also ordered the Buddhaghosuppatti. Do you > have any comments on its reliability? .... Jim: >A hard question for me to answer. I haven't finished going over the whole book and I'm still far from being familiar with Buddhaghosa's life story. From what I've read so far I have found it a credible story and there are parts of it that I particularly like. You may have trouble convincing others of the historicity of the facts. Probably best to read it like you would any story or anecdote in the commentaries.< .... S: [We now have this slim later commentary/life of Buddhaghosa found in Burma. The relevant passage reads (about Buddhaghosa's death) "When he knew that the time for his departure from this world was nigh, he took leave of his preceptor, approached the Bodhi-tree, recited two stanzas in praise of it, and, on departing this life, was born in a golden mansion in the Tusita heaven, to return to this world of men on the coming of Meteyya, the next Buddha. When he died, men and gods made a funeral pyre of sandal-wood for the cremation of his body. Raising aloft his remains on a golden couch,they set fire to the pile with due decorum. His relics were taken and buried in the vicinity of the Bodhi-tree and shrines erected over them." I can't give any comments on this particular text, but see no reason not to accept this passage as being reliable.] Metta, Sarah ===== 34061 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Jun 21, 2004 1:12am Subject: Re: [dsg] Naming (was Re: Rupas for beginners) Hi Icaro (& RobM), We never know where you might pop up - if it's too chilly in Toronto, try Hong Kong next - very hot and humid here (or Malaysia).....it might suit you better!!! --- icarofranca wrote: > Even an intellectual exercise like reading the Visuddhimagga, or > the Abhidhamma's books and their tiikas, the Nikayas, etc, can give > you a sound and strong mind stuff. Mental discipline to acquire > knowledge is always headlong to mindfullness: one becomes able to > gather spiritual honey even from the more unpromising flowers! > > There are also many practical aspects on these matters. Many > Bhikkhus suggest that the Abhidhamma is the true vipassana indeed: > it's a wink to the practitioner of meditation that watches carefully > his own breath even (and mainly) at readings!!! ... S: Good points! From what I follow, your comments above reminded me of this talk by Sitagu Sayadaw, which has been quoted before, but not for some time;-) 'Abhidhamma and Vipassana' which can be found on RobK's useful website: http://www.abhidhamma.org/sitagu%20sayadaw.htm "Since Vipassana meditation takes the Abhidhamma as its sole object of contemplation, Vipassana and Abhidhamma cannot be separated. And while it may not be said that one can practice Vipassana only after one has mastered the Abhidhamma, Vipassana meditation and the study of Abhidhamma remain one and the same thing. Because mind, mental factors and matter are forever bound up with this fathom-long body, the study and learning of this subject, and the concentrated observation of the nature of mind, mental factors and matter are tasks which cannot be distinguished. Since at the very least one would have to say that there can be no Vipassana without an understanding of mind and matter, surely then it is not possible to separate Abhidhamma and Vipassana. It is explained in the Abhidhamma that the root causes giving rise to the seven elements of mind and matter are ignorance (avijja), craving (tanha) and volitional action (kamma). It is further pointed out that the supporting conditions for these same seven elements are kamma, mind, climate (utu) and nutriment (ahara). Only by grasping these abhidhammic truths will one possess the knowledge which comprehends conditional relations (paccayapariggahanana), and achieve the purification of mind necessary for overcoming doubt. These excellent benefits are pointed out by paticcasamuppada and pathana. Therefore, since it is the case that Vipassana and Abhidhamma are not separate but are mutually dependent, it is rightly submitted that Vipassana yogis ought not let go of that wise method of learning about the human condition called the Abhidhamma. ( Note: - This is the talk , Sitagu Sayadaw gave on a special occasion of Abhidhamma, translated into English by the Department of Research and Compilation, International Buddhist Academy, Sagaing Hill, Myanmar )' ***** Metta, Sarah ===== 34062 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Jun 21, 2004 1:37am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: question on observation Dear Yulia and Huajun, Firstly, Yulia, I'm delighted to see you on the screen again after a long break. I remember from before that you always raise excellent practical questions. Thank you also for reminding us again about your unusual background and the good advice you used to hear. I think as RobM, Phil and others have suggested on this and other threads, we don't need to mind about the others and their progress or lack of progress. The practice or path always comes back to our own mental states. The dhamma is inside, not outside just as you suggested. I iked your comment: 'this is study of yourself which leads us to see ourselves are not ourselves. And this is not really about achieving your own liberation.' Yes, the teachings are about anatta and understanding conditioned realities, regardless -- I'd add-- of whether we'd classify them as 'happy', 'unhappy' or any other kind of realities. Huajun, Welcome to DSG and I was glad to read your comments back to Yulia too. Can I encourage you to let us know where you live and anything else about your interest in the Buddha's teachings. You obviously have a lot of familiarity with them. I liked the following comment you made: --- huajun_tang wrote: > Strong mindfulness is the most important support for observation of > precepts. When one's mindfulness is strong, the observaton of > precepts becomes more natural than forced, one get less or no > internal mental confliction. ..... S: There is another thread on sila (I hope you'll add your comments) - I think that without any developement of mindfulness and wisdom, sila can never be really firm. ... >For example, one time I took a walk > just after meditation on mindfulness of breath. I passed by a sexy > yang lady and the figure of her body started to disturb my mind and > body, then I just shifted my attention to my breath and kept it on > my breath. In this way my mind remained in a peaceful and happy > state. ..... S: I think this is a coping strategy, but possibly one based on avoidance or concentration rather than on awareness?? .... >But at other times when I do not have such strong > mindfulness, even if I force myself to turn away from the objects > that arouse lust, I can not get rid of the images in the mind. In > such a case, there is more or less mental conflicts. .... S: In the end, as Phil has been writing so clearly, I think there has to be the development of understanding with detachment too. It doesn't mean one shouldn't turn away, but either way, there can be awareness of any of the conditioned phenomena at these times. ..... > When one has more and deeper practice, one may find that Abhiddhamma > is more helpful. But at the beginning, one should first find some > methods that can be effectively used in real practice. I personally > prefer the teaching of Mahasi Sayadaw. .... S: It seems to be a common idea that Abhidhamma is only for 'deeper practice' but I don't think we have to call it by any name. Just a little understanding of the greed or anger or seeing or what is seen at this moment is Abhidhamma. Very deep but very simple! Looking forward to hearing more from both of you. You may like to look at posts saved under 'Abhidhamma for beginners' in Useful Posts at this link: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/Useful_Posts Metta, Sarah ====== 34063 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Jun 21, 2004 2:07am Subject: Dustrags (was: Brahma viharas 4) Hi Phil, I said I'd add a little more on dustrags;-) --- Philip wrote: > > And isn't there a kind ofconceit in this thinking? I find myself > feeling proud for being such a humble, unassuming man at work, and > for being popular with the students because of this, because I think > Japanese people have more respect for humble, unassuming people. > Dustrags can be conceited too. "Look at the footprints on me!" .... S: You mean like Uriah Heep who was so proud of being humble if I recall? Yes, conceit can arise on account of anything and it may be true -- you may be more humble! But at these times there is no understanding of the 'dustrag' which is the opposite to the 'banner' of conceit -- even if it is one of (rightly) being more humble and unassuming. There have been quite a few posts on this topic (and more under 'conceit' in U.P). The following in particular are on the dustrag theme and one includes some good sutta references: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/4072 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/11570 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/13626 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/13674 No pressure intended, but if you still questioning the value of the dustrag metaphor, I'd be glad to discuss it further as it's very helpful for me. I'll sign off now with a long extract below from one I wrote before w/ quotes from Nina and K.Sujin: Metta, Sarah S: >We've discussed before the list of objects on account of which mana arises from the Vibhanga (17) and these include "...pride of gain; pride of being honoured; pride of being respected; pride of prominence; pride of having adherents; pride of wealth; pride of appearance; pride of intelligence; pride of being a knowledgeable authority;...". We also know that because of the attachment to self and finding oneself so important, we cling to the 8 worldly conditions and very seldom see the value of being a 'nobody' or a dust-rag as Sariputta did. On one of our trips to India, K.Sujin talked a lot about the value of reflecting in this very way. When I first heard it, again the banner would start waving and I was aware of how much discomfort there was at considering the value of being a door-mat that anyone could criticise or trample over. Gradually, I've come to appreciate these reminders more and more and to see what precious 'treasure' they are. The following are two passages that Nina wrote in letters about K.Sujin's example of the dustrag on that trip: ***** 1.http://www.dhammastudy.com/lv9.html "Khun Sujin had reminded us in India to become like a dustrag which serves for wiping the feet. A dustrag takes up filth and is undisturbed by it. One should become as humble as a dustrag. Sariputta, who could forgive anybody, no matter whether that person treated him in an unjust manner, compared himself with a dustrag. He had no conceit. When right understanding has been developed one will cling less to the self, there will be more humbleness. During the discussions Khun Sujin said again: I would like to be a dustrag. I follow the way to be one, it is my resolution. Our resolution means that we take action by developing understanding and metta. . It is beneficial to be reminded again of the dustrag, because humbleness seems to go against our nature. As understanding develops it must lead to letting go of namas and rupas. What we take for self are only impermanent namas and rupas. When their impermanence has been realized can they be as important as before? ' We read in the "Vinaya" (VI, Parivara, Ch XII) how the monk should behave when he approaches the Sangha when it is convened for the investigation of a legal question. We read: ...he should approach the Order with a humble mind, with a mind as though it were removing dust. He should be skilled about seats and skilled about sitting down. He should sit down on a suitable seat without encroaching on (the space intended for) monks who are Elders and without keeping newly ordained monks from a seat. He should not talk in a desultory fashion, nor about inferior (worldly) matters. Either he should speak Dhamma himself or should ask another to do so, or he should not disdain the ariyan silence... The commentary (the Samantapasadika) adds to "with a mind as though it were removing dust" : "like a towel for wiping the feet." ***** 2.Another quote from K.Sujin: http://www.dhammastudy.com/lv6.html "There is conceit if we have an idea that we should be "somebody with great wisdom". We should follow Sariputta's example who compared himself with a dustrag, a useless rag without any value. If we do not consider ourselves "somebody", but rather a "nobody", it will prevent us from pretending, even to ourselves, that we are more advanced than we in reality are. We also need the perfection of truthfulness (sacca) to keep us on the right track. We have to be sincere, truthful to reality. Do we want to avoid being aware of akusala? We have to be aware of it in order to know our true accumulations. If we are not aware of akusala we will take what is akusala for kusala. We need to develop the perfection of equanimity in order to learn to accept with kusala citta the vicissitudes of life. Praise and blame are only realities which arise because of their own conditions, in reality people are not the cause of praise or blame. When people do wrong to us we can develop metta if we see the value of metta. Instead of having aversion about people's bad points we will try to remember their good qualities. If they have none there can be compassion or there can be equanimity. There can be equanimity when we remember that the real cause of unpleasant experiences through the senses is not a person but our own kamma. We should carefully consider the different perfections and then we will be reminded to develop them in our daily life, they are needed in each situation. Khun Sujin said that while she prepares lectures for the radio she needs many perfections, such as metta, patience, energy and equanimity. When there is equanimity she does not feel hurt when people do not want to listen to her or when they criticize her." ***** When we listen to and consider the teachings, as we read in the Simile of the Snake, they should be 'grasped' in a way which leads to less mana and clinging to self importance rather than the reverse.< ========================================= 34064 From: icarofranca Date: Mon Jun 21, 2004 4:32am Subject: Re: Canada/Jim/Icaro Hi Larry!!! > If you see Jim (the Pali guy) up there, tell him we miss him. He is in Orillia, taking his second cataract surgery. Mettaya, Ícaro 34065 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Jun 21, 2004 7:04am Subject: Re: ¦^ÂСG[dsg] Re: Liberated in both ways(was, ¦^ÂСG?^???G...) Dear Tzung-kuen (and Swee Boon) I have just checked the Bhikkhu Bodhi translation of the Kitagiri Sutta that you and Swee Boon have been referring to (see passage from Middle Length Discourses of the Buddha copied below). From the reference to the 7 kinds or persons, it seems that in this context at least the term 'ubhatabhaagavimutta' /one liberated-in-both-ways refers specifically to the manner of attaining enlightenment. In terms of the task to be done, there is no difference between the person who is liberated-in-both-ways and the person who is 'liberated-by-wisdom': both have 'done [their] work with diligence' and are 'no more capable of being negligent'. In a footnote to the term 'liberated-in-both-ways' ('ubhatabhaagavimutta' ) (also copied below), Bhikkhu Bodhi quotes the commentary as indicating that it includes: - one who attains arahantship after emerging from one or another of the four immaterial attainments and - one who attains arahantship after emerging from the attainment of cessation. So in both cases it refers to the circumstances under which arahantship is actually attained. I am wondering, however, if the term would preclude, for example, an arahant who attained to one the specified attainments for the first time only *after* becoming an arahant. I mention this because your definition of 'an arahant who has attained (any one of ) the formless attainemnt is called an ubhatobhagavimutta' may need to be tightened up a little. Grateful for any observations you may have from your readings of the texts. Jon From Middle Length Discourses of the Buddha (trans Bhikkhu Bodhi) M 70, Kitagiri Sutta 14. "Bhikkhus, there are seven kinds of persons to be found existing in the world. What seven? They are: one liberated-in-both-ways, one liberated-by-wisdom, a body-witness, one attained-to-view, one liberated-by-faith, a Dhamma-follower, and a faith-follower. 15. "What kind of person is one liberated-in-both-ways? Here some person contacts with the body and abides in those liberations that are peaceful and immaterial, transcending forms, and his taints are destroyed by his seeing with wisdom. This kind of person is called one liberated-in-both-ways.[702] I do not say of such a bhikkhu that he still has work to do with diligence. Why is that? He has done his work with diligence; he is no more capable of being negligent. 16. "What kind of person is one liberated-by-wisdom? Here some person does not contact with the body and abide in those liberations that are peaceful and immaterial, transcending forms, but his taints are destroyed by his seeing with wisdom. I do not say of such a bhikkhu that he still has work to do with diligence. Why is that? He has done his work with diligence; he is no more capable of being negligent." [702] 'Ubhatobhaagavimutta'. MA: He is "liberated-in-both-ways" because he is liberated from the physical body by the immaterial attainments and from the mental body by the path (of arahantship). ... MA says that the 'ubhatabhaagavimutta' includes those who attain arahantship after emerging from one or another of the four immaterial attainments and the one who attains it after emerging from the attainment of cessation. --- Mr Tzung-Kuen Wen wrote: > Dear Jon ... > I think Ven Bhikkhu Bodhi here follows the interpretation of Pali > commentaries where an arahant who has attained (any one of ) the > formless attainemnt is called an ubhatobhagavimutta, "one liberated in > both ways" while the arahants who do not have any formless attainment is > called pa~n~naavimutta, "one liberated by wisdom". > > metta > > Tzung-kuen 34066 From: Robert Epstein Date: Mon Jun 21, 2004 7:10am Subject: Re: Formal Sitting or Natural Arising? - Extremely Long and Contentious --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > Hi Rob Ep, > > Thanks for another Rob Epic post. > ------------------------------- > > This is a very long post, > apologies for being perhaps upsetting, > > ------------------- > > Try as I might, I can't find anything to take offence at. Towards > the end, your language does get a little over the top but you have > been driven to it! :-) > > --------------------------- Ha ha. Well thanks for the leeway, Ken. > KH: > > I have just read Sukin's reply < > and I want to repeat > something he said: "I believe that if you started to look at the > Teachings more from the perspective of the present moment, away from > any previous tendency to think in terms of situations and `things to > do', that you will appreciate more what Nina and others have been > saying." > > > > REp: > I think it's a mistake to assume that I don't have a "present- > moment perspective" just because I have the sad fate to support > something that is out of favor around here. > > -------------------------------- > > I agree. And the operative word in Sukin's advice was "more:" We > all need to look at the teachings `more' from the perspective of the > present moment and `less' from the perspective of situations and > things to do. > > -------------------------------- Well, who can argue with that?? But is my need for "more" more than yours and Sukin's? Do you think my view is further away from the perspective of the present moment than your own? I'm sure you'd agree that this is the implication, and perhaps you're right..... ? > REp: > but meditation too takes place in the moment! > > -------------------------------- > > Yes, real meditation (bhavana) takes place in the moment. But formal > meditation is a concept (a thing to do in a situation) - in the > reality taught by the Buddha, it doesn't take place at all. > > -------------------- Yes, and neither does sutta reading. It is merely a concept. What I see throughout your response, which is interesting and has may worthwhile points, is a two-edged sword which seems self-contradictory to me, and which avoids the issue of the equality of all activities. Somehow, when it comes to meditation, you say it is "formal meditation" as opposed to bhavana, and when it comes to sutta study it is just a wonderful benign activity that happens without any akusala intention, and in which the kusala moments can gradually arise by themselves. I strongly object to the idea that somehow sutta study has no prejudicial elements, it is free of the taints of formal meditation, which somehow precludes its true expression, true bhavana, from arising because it is "planning to do something for a result." I do not accept the idea that sutta study has no intention for a result, or that it is any more "real" or provides any more of an opportunity for satipatthana or vipassana or bhavana to arise than sitting meditation. The truth is that if you sit and observe the breath, moments of akusala striving for a result will arise, moments of concept "I am meditating" will arise, and moments of seeing breath, thought or surroundings as arising rupas and namas will also arise. I don't see a problem with that. In sutta study, moments of thinking "I am following the Buddha's path" will arise, moments of thinking "I want to learn about these suttas" will arise, and moments of understanding or insight may arise. So what is the difference? When you want to justify sutta study, you say that it is one of the three factors that Buddha said will lead to enlightenment, but at that time you ignore the fact that sutta study is a concept and that namas and rupas will still arise as they do during sutta study. When you want to disparage the engagement with bhavana, which is certainly "right practice" you call it "formal meditation" to dismiss it out of hand, and proclaim that it is a concept, not true meditation and therefore bhavana will not take place. I think you unfairly skew the argument towards that which you favor. When you talk about the three factors that lead to enlightenment you wisely leave out the last factor, which is "right practice." Right practice is "bhavana" which is the arising of satipatthana. You say that it is the result of the other three. I challenged you to show me where the Buddha said that "right practice," as you define it, the arising of satipatthana, which I assume you would consider "true bhavana," is the result of the first three factors, and so you can discount it as something to do, while recommending the doing of sutta study, wise associations, etc., which are just as much doings as the practice of bhavana. You cut that question out, I think, in your snipping of my extra-long post, rather than answer it. I would contend that the Buddha never said that, and in fact right practice is another of the factors leading to enlightenment which one undertakes through meditation, whether in daily life or by sitting, just like sutta study and association with wise friends, etc. In order to deny this, you have to say that Right Practice not only arises by itself, but is the result of the three factors you are in favor of. It just ain't fair. > . . . > REp > As I think Sarah recently said, or at least something to this > effect, if we did not believe that the guidance of the Buddha would > lead us to enlightenment, we would not engage with the Buddhist path > at all. And it is our faith and trust in the Buddha and the path he > lays out that leads us to engage with the Buddhist path and take the > perspective of the Buddhist path. > ------------------------- > > That should be understood from the `present moment perspective.' > Confidence, understanding and detachment are realities that can > arise, in the present moment, to experience an arisen reality. > > ------------------------ Sure, but we still engage in the study and practice the Buddha recommends because he recommended it, whether the "true" confidence and understanding arise in the moment or not. > REp > Now, this is me speaking: This is a goal > orientation. It is *not* just focussed on the present moment; it is > conceptual and faith-based and headed towards the future. > > ------------------------ > > Things to do and situations! That's fine if it's what you want, > but, as Sukin has said, it won't help you `appreciate more what Nina > and others [Sarah in this instance] have been saying.' > > ----------------------- You misunderstand me. I didn't say that's what I want. I was saying that that's what you and me and everyone are doing most of the time, and we shouldn't pretend that a meditator is falling into this trap while a sutta studier is not. It's silly to think that we are always focussed correctly on the present moment, since that would mean we were enlightened, and at the same time act as though our activities are more pure than the meditator's. You accept the arising of kusala and akusala moments when it comes to the activities you think are good, and you point them out and shake your head when it comes to the activities you think are bad. > REp > Of course we continually re-group and take our understanding > and point it towards the present moment. > --------------------- > > This is true, but from the PM perspective, there is no we who > regroup - there are only namas and rupas arising now and capable of > being experienced by sati and panna. (Conditions willing.) Yes, but this is always true. I am talking about what really happens, and you are picking out a techicality and not dealing with the point. The point is that we are all in the same boat, trying to achieve satipatthana, whether you think you are not formally practicing, or whether you think someone else is formally practicing. And unless you see equality in sutta study and meditation, which are both intentional activities, you will be seeing a false separation between types of activities while not acknowledging that you are doing so. If you want to talk about the arising of namas and rupas being the only reality, then you have to tell me how the arising namas and rupas are different in meditation than they are in sutta study. Because implicit in what you are saying is that the namas and rupas in sutta study are "better" than the ones in meditation. So why not admit that and deal with the distinction? How can one nama or rupa be better than another for the path, when they are all equally there to be discerned, or not discerned depending on the arising moment? > I have just snipped a section (it was a long post, after all) that > demonstrated your accurate grasp of the Abhidhamma. So there is no > reason why you shouldn't see the other side of the formal practice > debate. It's just a matter - for you as for all of us - of bringing > everything back to the present moment. > > ------------------------- > REp > Sure, someone can ruin it by misunderstanding the teachings > and using their sutta study to keep asserting more and more sense of > self, but you still think that on the whole this is a good activity > and it is what the Buddha said we should be doing, so it is fine. > But when it comes to meditation, <. . .> you call it "formal > practice" an disallow that it can lead to kusala accumulations. > ---------------------- > > The Dhamma is a teaching -- the Buddha teaches and we pay wise > attention. Is this not a concept? The practice of concentrating on a chosen object does > not enter the equation. Why not? If Buddha spoke about breathing and bhavana, why do you ignore his teaching instead of paying "wise attention?" I know, we're not jhana adepts so it doesn't apply to us. I think that's a cop-out! We should all be reading our suttas and also cultivating bhavana. Maybe we'll have vipassana or go into jhana or not, but we cannot ignore the path because we think it's too difficult! > --------------------- > <. . . .> > REp > but if one diligently studies the suttas with the hope of > enlightenment, this is just fine, and is not a "formal practice" > with the same deadly results. I don't get it. > ------------ > > Coming back to the present moment: if there is right understanding, > here and now, what are its causes? There are three causes: > conventionally speaking they are, `association with the wise, > hearing the Dhamma and wise consideration of the Dhamma.' No, there are four causes [although they are all just concepts]: association with the wise, hearing the Dhamma and wise consideration of the Dhamma, AND Right Practice. You leave it out because you don't want to admit that Bhavana is one of the causes of Right Understanding. I contend that if you do not include the practice of Bhavana, you cut off the legs of the teaching. yes, you then are left wityh the possibility of dry insight, which is fine as far as it goes, but is not the path most highly recommended by the Buddha. Why leave it out completely instead of at least saying "If you have the time and propensity to sit and cultivate moments of vipassana and jhana, you should do it, as the Buddha suggested." Instead those who have no time or perhaps desire for practicing Bhavana, suggest that it is not only not necessary, but is the result of what they *do* want to do, sutta study and discussion. And we should not approach it directly, because concept of self will arise. Should we be frightened of this concept, or take a long hard look at it when it arises? > But forget about conventionally speaking: don't feel obliged to do > any of those things or create any of those situations. Just > understand, here and now, the three causes of right understanding. Four, according to the Buddha. Please don't change the teaching. > ---------------- > <. . .> > REp: > I am coming to the conclusion that every wonderful kusala > activity has the potential to become a "formal practice" and express > wrong view. So I guess it has to do with what view we are holding, > not what activity we are doing. Do you disagree with this? > -------------------- > > I agree with it. Of the two, only the view is real: the activity > (the thing to do) is not ultimately real, and therefore, it is > neither kusala nor akusala. > > -------------------- > REp: > Or are you saying that com study is immune from the > development of such a view? > -------------------- > > Ultimately, Dhamma study is a kusala moment of hearing, considering > or learning. If we believe it is a thing to do in a situation, then > there is wrong view. What does ultimately mean? If I said ultimately, sitting is a moment of bhavana, you would say "ah you're focussed on the future result." But it's okay when you do it!! So you can ignore my point that it is often not kusala now! Just like the "formal" in formal meditation, which ultimately will be filled with vipassana and satipatthana, wonderful things. > ------------- > REp: > Perhaps if you do think that, it would make com study all the > more pernicious as wrong view will be sure to creep in when you > least expect it. > ------------- > > That sounds right to me. > > -------------- Well thanks for that. > KH: > > As you say, there is no point in relying on personal > affidavits: we need an interpretation of the Dhamma < > that is > consistent with the entire Tipitaka. > > > > REp > How about something that is actually said in the suttas for a > good start? Interpretations are perilous. I know there is a tendency > to distrust the obvious bald meaning of what the Buddha actually > says, but that is where I would go to find out what in fact he said! > > > -------------- > > Obviously, there is nothing wrong with the suttas, but each of us > interprets them differently. With the Abhidhamma, which was also > taught by the Buddha, there is less margin for error. One of the > most rewarding aspects of Dhamma study is to see how the suttas > relate back to the Abhidhamma. > > -------------- And how was the Abhidhamma also taught by the Buddha? Did he leave a record of his own words in the Abhidhamma as in the suttas? Please give me a quick review of this relationship. > REp: > So: what is the Abhidhamma interpretation of something the > Buddha said that leads directly to the conclusion that breathing > meditation is a "formal practice" that should be filed under "wrong > view." I await your report with great anticipation. > > 1/ Quote from Sutta > 2/ Com'y on same Sutta by Abhidhamma commentator. > 3/ Your interpretation and conclusion regarding meditation as akusala > "formal practice." > Three easy steps. > > > ------------- > > I've just read the whole Tipitaka (joke), and there is no mention of > formal practice. That's because it's an added on concept that the Buddha wasn't worried about. : ) > There is mention of `mindfulness of breathing' but only as a type of > jhana absorption. Uh....that's not true. Being mindful of breathing is what the Anapanasati sutta is about. How is that not so? Even then, `mindfulness of breathing' does not > seem to be something one practises as a means of developing > something. Why do you say it "does not seem" to be something one practices? On what basis do you say that? Since it's the crux of the issue, it should be certain, not just "seem" one way or the other. Rather, it is the occupation of an elite group of people > who, having already developed kusala consciousness to an incredibly > high degree, then concentrate that consciousness on an object - in > this case, the breath. Well that's certainly not in the sutta. That's a story you are telling about it. Based on what? > I'll leave it now before I cause any more exasperation. Too late!! : ) Remember; > the magic solution is to see the teachings more from the perspective > of the present moment. Yes, we should all try this some day. : ) Let's drop all our philosophies and just see directly. Then we will be enlightened. In that way, we appreciate more of what our > DSG friends are saying. Take, for example, this quote from > Nina's "Perseverance in the Dhamma:" > > "We may be discouraged that panna and sati seldom arise and that > we are thinking of people, things and events most of the time. But > thinking is a reality, and if we do not realize it as such we take > it for self." > > Pure gold! Yes, it is a wonderful quote. Thank you for that. Yes, if we see that even thinking is a reality that can be seen in the moment, we can do that and have a moment of insight, a moment of bhavana, and then we are truly meditating!! It can even happen while one is actually meditating! I'll see you there!!! : ) Thanks much for your thoughts! Best, Robert Ep. 34067 From: nidive Date: Mon Jun 21, 2004 7:25am Subject: ¦^ÂСG[dsg] Re: B.Bodhi's comments on the Susima Sutta, SN 12:70 (10) Hi Mr Tzung-Kuen Wen, > Actually, in the Abhidhamma texts of Sarvastivada, the cretia for > ubhatobhagavimutta is exactly, as you suggest, the attainment of > cessation of perception and feeling. That's interesting. I didn't know about that. I know very little about the Sarvastivada. It seems that you have read those texts pretty well to know this. I understand some say the Sarvastivada actually originates from Venerable Sariputta himself. Regards, Swee Boon 34068 From: nidive Date: Mon Jun 21, 2004 7:59am Subject: ¦^ÂСGRe: [dsg] B.Bodhi's comments on the Susima Sutta, SN 12:70 (10) Hi Mr Tzung-Kuen Wen, > > Perhaps because the attainment of the "cessation of perception > > & feeling" is very similar to parinibbana, that is why an arahant > > who attains this vimokkha is called "released in both ways"? That > > is, both here and now, and at death. > > Your interpretation is interesting, while the commentaries says > "in both ways" refers to vipassana attainment and samatha > attainment. It's definitely interesting, but does it make sense to you? > In your opinion, what is the meaning when the sutta says 'one does > not attian the 8 vimokkhas'? In my opinion, the phrase "one does not attain the 8 vimokkhas" means that "one does not attain all the 8 vimokkhas". I think the presence of the word "8" implies "all". Otherwise, we can simply say "one does not attain the vimokkhas". > Does he attain jhanas? Or we need to cross reference with more > other suttas? Previously, I had the opinion that so-called "dry-insight" arahants are possible. Now, I don't think so especially in light of MN 64. I go with Bhikkhu Bodhi in that jhanas are not needed for stream-entry and once-returning, but needed for non-returning and arahantship. There are two reasons: (1) Jhana pleasure provides the sole means of escape from sensual pleasure. Without jhana pleasure, one will always tend to fall back to sensual pleasure, because sensual pleasure is the only kind of pleasure that is known. (2) Jhana appears to be the sole degree of concentration that qualifies as fulfilling the perfection of the faculty of concentration of an anagami/arahant. Regards, Swee Boon 34076 From: robmoult Date: Mon Jun 21, 2004 8:55am Subject: Naming (was Re: Rupas for beginners) Hi Agrios, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "agriosinski" wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" wrote: > Hi Rob, let me make short review: > > > > > so sati is only possible when the self is dropped > > > > out of the picture? > > > > Any mental state which includes attachment to a view of self must be > > > unwholesome (ditthi arises in lobha-mula akusala cittas). > > > All worldlings (not yet Sotapanna) still have a latent view of self > > > so that, when conditions are suitable, a view of self can arise. > > In other words, all mental states of common worldlings and not > Sotapannas are unwholesome. All at least - almost all. > Consequently sati can not arise as long as there is a personality belief. ===== Not quite. According to the Abhidhamma, there are 20 possible kamma-creating mental states in daily life (i.e. not in jhana meditation). They include: - 4 greed-rooted mental states which include attachment to a wrong view - 4 greed-rooted mental states which do not include attachment to a wrong view - 2 aversion-rooted mental states - 2 delusion-rooted mental states - 8 wholesome mental states In a worldling, the latent potential to have a wrong view is constantly present, even when wholesome mental states have arisen. This latent potential to wrong view can only rise up to actual attachment to wrong view in the first category (4 greed-rooted mental states which include attachment to a wrong view). Even then, not every one of these greed-rooted mental states will have attachment to self view, they may also have attachment to wrong view about kamma (very serious - enough to cause one to end up in hell!), a wrong view about the reality of concepts or a wrong view about the benefit of rites and rituals. All of these wrong views fall under the mental factor of ditthi. In summary, for a worlding not in a jhana state, of the 20 possible kamma-creating mental states, only four have the potential of having wrong view and self view (sakkaya-ditthi) is only one of the manifestations of wrong view. Sati arises in every wholesome mental state. Since attachment to self view (a form of attachment to wrong-view) only arises in some of the unwholesome mental states, one will never find sati and attachment to self view in the same mental state. However, latent attachment to self-view (a form of latent attachment to wrong view) will continue to exist, even during wholesome mental states until one becomes a Sotapanna. ===== > > > >At the moment > > > of "pure giving", there is sati because, at that moment, the object > > > has been seen as it truly is without any distortion from latent > > > lobha, latent dosa or latent moha. > > Now, you say there is sati in the moment of "pure giving". > I decided to ask what this pure giving is, since it clearly have to > remove personality belief from the picture (no moha) and this would > open opportunity for panna to arise for small tiny citta moment. > Your answer is: > > > Each mental state exists for a brief instant and performs a specific > > function. When I wrote "pure giving", I wanted to emphasize that I > > was referring to the split second when giving was happening, not the > > other mental states that might arise close to that event. In reality, > > mental states arise and fall so quickly that people sometimes > > mistakenly merge discrete events such as "thinking about how much the > > gift cost" and "pure giving" into one. > > Now I understand your latest remarks to the way Buddhism is practiced > as a mental exercise and not the way of life. It moved me deeply when > I read this remark and now I understand why. > > Returning to sati. > Sati is not to be achieved. It will arise when conditions are present. ===== Well said! ===== > I will replace all this chaos and confusion and that will be it. ===== Oops, there is no "I" in control to do any replacing. ===== > The stream will be reached, but no one will reach it. ===== Okay, you are back on track again :-) ===== > > When there is a split second of wholesome deed, they are most precious > steps on our way to enlightment. > But... there is still self illusion Rob. How there can be any citta > without it? ===== Latent attachment to self view exists until one is a sotapanna. Cittas arise because conditions support their arising. This rule holds for worldlings, for Sotapanna, even for Arahants and Buddhas. There are a bunch of things that cause a citta to arise (such as the falling away of the previous citta, the presence of a physical base in the sensous realms, etc.), but attachment to self-view is not a general requirement. Since attachment to wrong views is one of the latent dispositions (anusaya), latent attachment to wrong views can act as one of the conditions (through natural decisive support condition) for the arising of one of the 4 greed-rooted mental states which include attachment to a wrong view. In other words, latent potential for attachment to wrong view can act as one of the conditions for the arising of a mental state where wrong view is no longer latent but actual. However, attachment to wrong view is not special in this regard; the same holds true for all the latent dispositions. For example, a latent disposition of aversion can cause an object to be perceived as undesirable and this perception of being undesirable then becomes a condition for the arising of actual (no longer latent) aversion. It becomes a self-fulfilling prophesy; this is why an optimist is happy :-) ===== > > And my last question was: > > > Your last question, "Isn't object (the one to be seen by sati) just a > > creation of self? Are there objects outside of thinking?" is > > extremely interesting. > > [...] > > Citta is the process of being aware of an object (an activity). Citta > > is also that which is aware of an object (an agent). Finally, citta > > is the means by which the accompanying mental factors are aware of an > > object (an instrument). > > > The object of a mental state and the mental state itself ( led by > > citta) are different. There is a co-dependence, just as three sticks > > in a tripod all depend on each other for support, but the object is > > not created by the self. > > I am confused. > I know that citta is aware of an object. > I don't know what the objects are. ===== There are six types of objects (arammana): visible object, sound, odour, taste, body-impression and mind-object. It is important to note that objects are defined according to the sense door at which they appear. Consider the cup of tea that I am enjoying at this moment. - There is a visible object (what I see) - There is a sound object that I have named as "air-con background sound" - There is an odour object (it is herbal tea) - There is a taste object (only when I drink) - There is a body-impression object consisting of temperature, hardness and pressure - There is a mind-object (concept of a cup of tea) These objects do not arise simultaneously because only one of the six sense-doors is active at one time. When the eye-door mental process is active, the visible object exists. At that moment, this is the only object that exists. Because objects are defined in terms of the sense door at which they arise, they do not exist when the sense door is not active. There has been debate on DSG as to whether rupa exists independent of the senses, with Howard taking the phenomenological view that they do not exist. This is the old, "If a tree falls in a forest but there is none to hear it, does the sound exist?" question. Agrios, I hope that my answer has not confused you. Metta, Rob M :-) 34077 From: nidive Date: Mon Jun 21, 2004 9:09am Subject: Re: Purpose of our Lives Hi Christine, > Everything that it is about happens between the mouth and > the anus, dropping stuff in one end and dropping it out the other. > Why does it do this? So that it can do it again. > Why? So that this way of putting stuff in one end and out the > other can go on. And on. And on. Is there a point to all of this? > Yes. Putting stuff in one end and dropping it out the other. > What is the purpose of all of this? To put stuff in one end and > out the other. > Now, you might think that this is just some horrible story > that I am telling you to scare you. Or that I am just joking. I am > not joking. Yes, this is a story because I am telling it in a > particular way to make certain essential points clear that should be > obvious to everyone but tend not to be. But what I am describing in > this story is true. You might not want to hear this story. This > might be unpleasant to face. You might want to hear instead about > Allah or Brahma or the Omega Point or human beings being evolved by > the universe so that it can know itself. However, if you do that, > you are not only lying to yourself and others but are propagating > the kind of delusions that have encouraged us to go forth and > multiply and claim mastery over the birds in the air and the beasts > in the field. > The bodymind has no other purpose. It is not about > anything else. The universe has no purpose. It is not about anything > else. Stars forming from the gathering of gases and eating > themselves from the inside out over billions of years, dropping heat > and light out their other end into blank space. Insects that live > only a few hours. A human lifespan. In and out of the tubes." Thank you for this excerpt. Putting stuff in one end and dropping it out the other. The Buddha said that the bones of one single person transmigrating for one aeon would be a cairn, a pile, a heap as great as Mount Vepulla. It can be reckoned that the faeces of one single person transmigrating for one aeon would be a cairn, a pile, a heap a hundred times, a thousand times as great as Mount Vepulla. Enough to become disenchanted with all fabricated things, enough to become dispassionate, enough to be released. --------------------------------------------------------------------- http://abhidhamma.org/abhid10.html We read in the 'Kindred Sayings' (II, Nidana-vagga, Ch. XV, par. 10, A person) that the Buddha, when he was in Rajagaha on Vulture's Peak, said to the monks: Incalculable is the beginning, monks, of this faring on. The earliest point is not revealed of the running on, faring on of beings, cloaked in ignorance, tied by craving... The bones of one single person, monks, running on, faring on for an aeon would be a cairn, a pile, a heap as great as Mount Vepulla, were there a collector of those bones and the collection were not destroyed. How is this? Incalculable is the beginning, monks, of this faring on. The earliest point is not revealed of the running on, faring on of beings, cloaked in ignorance, tied by craving... Thus spoke the Exalted One. After the Wellfarer had said this, he spoke further: The pile of bones of (all the bodies of) one man Who has alone one aeon lived, Were heaped a mountain high - - so said the mighty seer - - Yes, reckoned high as Vipula To north of Vulture's Peak, crag-fort of Magadha. When he with perfect insight sees The Ariyan Truths: - - what dukkha is and how it comes. And how it may be overpassed, The Ariyan Eightfold Path, the way all ill to abate - - Seven times at most reborn, a man Yet running on, through breaking every fetter down, Endmaker does become of dukkha. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Regards, Swee Boon 34078 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Jun 21, 2004 11:24am Subject: Vis. 83, Tiika note 36 Visuddhimagga, XIV, 83. Tiika Note 36. (this note given by the translator of the Vis. is a translation of a part of the beginning of Tiika 83). Tiika text: ' "Sense sphere" (kaamaavacara): here there are the two kinds of sense desire (kaama), sense desire as basis (vatthu-kaama) and sense desire as defilement (kilesa-kaama). Of these, sense desire as [objective] basis particularized as the five cords of sense desire (pa~nca-kaama-gu.na = dimensions of sensual desires), is desired (kaamiyati). Sense desire as defilement, which is craving, desires (kaameti). N: vatthu-kaama is the basis of sense desire. They are the sense objects that are desired by the defilement of sense desire, kilesa kaama. This is called tanhaa, clinging. The Expositor (I, p. 82) explains that the basis of sense desire is the round of the triple plane of existence. Because of clinging one wants to be reborn. The triple plane of existence are the sensuous planes, the fine material planes and the immaterial planes. Text: The sense sphere (kaamavacara) is where these two operate (avacaranti) together. But what is that? It is the elevenfold sense-desire becoming, i.e. hell, asura demons, ghosts, animals, human beings, and six sensual-sphere heavens. N: We have to distinguish planes (bhuumi) of citta and planes of existence. As to plane (bhuumi) of citta there are four planes: cittas of the sense sphere, kaamaavacara cittas, ruupaavacara cittas (ruupa-jhånacittas), aruupaavacara cittas (aruupajhaanacittas) and lokuttara cittas, supramundane cittas experiencing nibbaana. Thus, there are four planes of cittas classified according to the object citta experiences. As to plane of existence, this is the locality where one is reborn. There are eleven sensuous planes. Sensuousness frequents these sensuous planes, in these planes the basis of sense desire and sense desire prevail. We read in the Expositor : Cittas of the sensesphere also arise in ruupa-brahma planes and in aruupa brahma planes; cittas rooted in lobha, for example, arise in ruupa-brahma planes and in aruupa brahma planes. Seeing and hearing also arise in ruupa-brahma planes, but smelling, tasting and body-consciousness do not arise there. Those born in the ruupa-brahma planes have less conditions for sense impressions. However, cittas of the sensesphere arise in abundance in the sensuous planes of existence. We read in the Co to the Abhidhammattha Sangaha (Topics of Abhidhamma, p. 10): < Herein that which desires (kameti) is desire (kaama) or sensual craving. [Consciousness] where that desire is active (avacarati) in finding its objects belongs to the sphere of sense-desire (kaamaavacara.m). Alternatively, kaama is that which is desired, [that is,] elevenfold sense-sphere existence; because it is mostly active there, it belongs to the sphere of sense-objects (kaamaavacara.m)- for what is meant is its most common activity, even though [consciousness] that occurs in form and formless existences can still belong to the sphere of sense-desire. Alternatively, kaama is simply sense-sphere existence and what is active there is sense-sphere activity (kaamaavacaro) >. Text: So too with the fine-material sphere and the immaterial sphere, taking 'fine-material' as craving for the fine-material too, and 'immaterial' as craving for the immaterial too. It crosses over (uttarati) from the world (loka), thus it is supramundane (lokuttara)' (Pm. 464). N: The Tiika explains here word derivations. Craving for rebirth in sensuous planes is called kaamata.nhaa. Craving for rebirth in fine-material existence is called ruupa-ta.nhaa, and craving for rebirth in immaterial existence is called aruupa-ta.nhaa. **** Nina. (P.s. I shall proceed with the rest of the Tiika, which is the greater part, but also contained in other Co.) 34079 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Jun 21, 2004 11:24am Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. on Vis. note 35, health. Hi Larry, op 21-06-2004 02:03 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > Should generosity be performed with an eye toward the mental health of > the other? For example, if another wants money, needs money, must have > money for the false idea of a body, should we give money and thus feed > the desire for money and the false ideas of money and body? N: Generosity is giving useful things to others. When others misuse them or are attached that does not interfere with our kusala citta. But giving is not easy, we have to consider whether it is proper to give at this or that occasion. When a beggar pretends to be a monk it is not good to give him money. It is not right either to give money to bhikkhus, they are in transgression when they take money. When considering the citta with generosity it is a pure citta that sees the benefit of kusala. The Bodhisatta gave even when unasked. He also gave to people who annoyed him. Why? Because it is a way to have less defilements. Thus, we have to consider the citta. A false idea of body: it is because of conditions that we are born in a sensuous plane of existence. We have bodies and these should be taken care of. We cannot escape material needs. That is why metta is the foundation of the world. Without metta we could not live in this world, we have to help each other. Nina. 34080 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Jun 21, 2004 11:24am Subject: Re: [dsg] Make an island unto yourself Hello Philip, op 21-06-2004 02:10 schreef Philip op plnao@j...: > "Make an island unto yourself! Strive hard and become wise! Rid of > impurities and cleansed of stain, you shall not come again to brith > and decay." N: These words are also used elsewhere referring to the four Applications of Mindfulness (see Parinibbana sutta). Christine just gave it. We have to develop those ourselves, nobody else can do that for us. In that way we are our own refuge. Island in the sense of refuge. There is no saviour. Nina 34081 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Jun 21, 2004 11:24am Subject: Perseverance in Dhamma, Ch 6, no 1 Perseverance in Dhamma, Ch 6, no 1 Everything is Dhamma. Acharn Sujin reminded us time and again that everything is dhamma. Gradually these words have become more meaningful to us. We have many moments of ignorance and forgetfulness of dhammas, but this should not discourage us. We shall come to understand that also such moments are conditioned. Acharn Sujin explained that we may notice that we have attachment, lobha, but that this is different from the actual moment of being aware of the characteristic that is attached. She said: ³Even when we can tell that we have lobha, there is still the idea of my lobha... We cannot do anything because it has arisen already. We should understand that each reality that appears has arisen and that nobody created it.² So long as we are only thinking about realities we are drowning in the ocean of concepts. When one of our friends asked her what we can do, she answered: ³We should understand more deeply the word dhamma or element, dhåtu, as non-self. We should develop understanding based on hearing, studying and considering, so that there are conditions for the arising of right awareness. But awareness will not arise because of our intention to be aware.² So long as we do not clearly distinguish the characteristic of nåma from the characteristic of rúpa, we shall not know precisely what kusala is and what akusala. We can begin to be aware of different realities, but we may not know them yet as dhammas devoid of self. Acharn Sujin said: ²Whatever we say about lobha is only thinking. Realities arise and fall away very quickly. Instead of trying to pinpoint and ask ourselves whether this is kusala or akusala there must be the understanding of nåma and rúpa. One thinks that one knows what kusala is, but it is not known as dhamma, it is still Œme¹.² Listening and considering, again and again, these are the right conditions for the arising of awareness and direct understanding. We can consider Dhamma in the midst of our activities. Daily life is full of pungent reminders that brings us back to reality: to dhamma now. Some dhammas are pleasant and we cling to them, some are unwelcome, like sickness, death or the daily news we read, and on account of these we have distress or sadness. But we should not ignore any of these reminders. If we do, we are really negligent. **** Nina 34082 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Jun 21, 2004 11:24am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Phil and Bill : Brahma viharas, no 2, Dear Philip and Bill, Bill wrote: > where is the conversation on any of these sites regarding the > practice of morality in our daily lives? I know that I can talk for > hours about jhana this and jhana that and sutta this and sutta that- > -but why no conversations about the practical implementation of > sila? Bill, I sympathize. I love to talk about daily practice, never enough. I discuss it a lot with my husband Lodewijk. We remind each other when we fail in the Brahma viharas, and that is most of the time. But this is no reason to begin again. We have to keep courage. Please raise any topic on the practice, it is so good. Sila is practice, it includes all kind of practice. So I talk now with Philip about it. op 08-06-2004 01:18 schreef Philip op plnao@j...: > N: > We read in the ³Atthasålin?E² about the four brahmavihåras > ((Book I, Part V, >> Ch XIII, Divine States, 193) : >> ³...love (mett?E has the characteristic of being a procedure of > modes of >> beneficence; the function or property of bringing good; the > manifestation or >> effect of taking hatred away; the proximate cause of seeing the > lovableness >> of beings. Its consummation (success) is the quieting of ill-will; > its >> failure is the production of lust. > > Ph: Re the "proximate cause" - this is something I've wanted to > ask about. It is the factor that most directly conditions the > following factor? N: in Pali: pada.t.thaana: immediate occasion, also translated as footing. Like a foundation. Ph: There is metta, and then (almost) immediately > afterwards there is wisdom that sees the lovableness? N: Not afterwards. It can be shortly before or at the same time. And not always wisdom. The kusala citta sees that he is a friend, should be treated as a friend. Ph: "Proximate" > meaning very close in the chain of cittas? And what is the term for > more removed factors. "Aproximate?" "Distant?" N: See above. One's accumulations and having heard about metta we can see as other favorable factors, and these are more past. Ph: "Lovableness" is a word I find myself using a lot these days. > I found this sutta reminded me of the > friendly feeling I have for people, including myself. N: When having metta for oneself: this seems attachment. Metta is for other people. The Vis says: begin with oneself but then explains: see it thus: treat others as you would like to be treated yourself. > > N:> Htoo writes: friendship >> from those whom we have helped by any means and in any way. As soon > as >> that kind of attachment arises, metta has already gone. Metta and > attachment >> do not stay together.> > > Ph: But metta can arise in a situation where attachment has arisen, > right? I mean, when we see through to that attachment, a fairly > basic form of right understanding can replace it with metta. N: Your example of hurling a dish moments later illustrates that cittas change very fast. It is good to know that we are not kind all the time. But the Brahma viharas can also remind us of kusala now and then. Inspite of our failures. > N: >> In her lecture A. Sujin stresses that the cetasika equanimity, >> tatramajjhattata, which arises with each kusala citta, is very > necessary for >> all four Brahma-viharas. It prevents us from going to extremes, > namely, >> attachment and aversion. > > Ph: I am always thinking about equanimity, upekkha. It seems to me > that it is the starting point of true practice of Brahma-viharas, > based in whatever degree of understanding of the three > characteristics of annata, annica and dukkha that we have. And it > surprises me that it is always listed fourth in the Brahma-viharas. N: Very good. I just think how necessary it is, but I do not think immediately about the three characteristics. I know that this is a long way to realize and that nama and rupa have to know first as having different characteristics. But so much in life cannot be changed, that is true. So the thought of impermanence helps also. It has to happen like it happens, such as sickness. I have first aversion and worry and then I am reminded of equanimity. Ph: Perhaps it is listed last because in jhanas it is achieved at a > higher/rarer jhana. However, it seems to me that it is where we > should start. N: I think because it is more subtle. Ph: I remember very soon after I came to DSG I was talking about my > temper outbursts when I was cycling, and I think I said that I sensed > upekkha as a kind of protection, .... Sarah questioned this, and said > something about right understanding being the key. . N: Right understanding of the disadvantage of akusala and the benefit of kusala helps. Moreover, realizing one's different cittas, even on the intellectual level helps. Beginning to see that they are conditioned, no my kusala, my akusala. I think James had the same experience. He explained how difficult with his education. his parents, not to use harsh speech, but now he addresses people as friend Philip, friend Sarah, to remind himself that people should be treated as friends. I think this a lovely custom of him and he is really to be commended for it. (He cannot hear it, he is away). A good example that habits can be changed. Long ago he also said that he was developing equanimity. Only lokuttara maggacitta can eradicate, but before that there are ways to weaken akusala conduct. Kusala together with satipatthana helps most. Nina. 34083 From: Date: Mon Jun 21, 2004 3:31pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Canada/Jim/Icaro Hi Sarah, Thanks for the info on Jim. I hope the operation went well. Larry 34084 From: Date: Mon Jun 21, 2004 4:09pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism.XIV 83 Hi Nina, What does it mean when a resultant consciousness is kusala (profitable)? Does it mean only that the consciousness that caused it was kusala? Does seeing consciousness see accurately regardless of whether it is kusala or akusala? How does one tell the two apart? Is kusala and akusala only meaningful in javana? Larry 34085 From: Herman Hofman Date: Mon Jun 21, 2004 4:09pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Formal Sitting or Natural Arising? - Extremely Long and Contentious Dear Robert Epstein, You have written a wonderful, wise, incisive post. It cuts to the chase. Now don't get me wrong, I'm not saying you're wonderful, wise or incisive. So leave off any conceit, all right :-) Your words have shown very clearly the blinkered outlook that lies behind the promotion of certain formal activities over other activities. Clearly, any activity arising from intention to do so, carries with it the possibility of a large, albeit invisible faith in a self doing it. With the arising of awareness that an activity is possibly being shadowed by a self-belief, the next ego trick is avoidance of that activity, as Sarah pointed out just a while ago. It is unfortunate that the study of a present moment only happens in a present moment. And rarely, for moi. Next best thing, I suppose, is wise reflection on the past. And as you say there are a broad range of activities that usefully lend themselves to this end. That people have their preferences is fine, as long as they understand that they are just that, preferences. Good to be writing with you Herman 34086 From: Andrew Date: Mon Jun 21, 2004 4:20pm Subject: Re: [dsg] oral tradition Hi Nina and Herman Nice to see Herman back again posing more difficult and unfashionable questions! :-) You keep me on the edge of my seat, Herman, but in this instance I have some questions I would like to hear your thoughts on, if you have the time and inclination. See below. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Herman Hofman" wrote: You talk about the recitation of the texts in groups of hundreds of > people (500 comes up a lot of times in the texts - to me it is > figurative language). Unless these same hundreds were all present each > time the Buddha spoke his living words, what is it that was jointly > remembered and recited? > > The suttas depict the Buddha in solitude, addressing individuals, small > groups, medium groups and large groups, variously composed of lay > people, monks, nuns, royalty, devas, you name it. When did he speak in > the company of the same large groups of saints with impeccable memories? > Your guess is as good as mine. It takes less mental gymnastics to accept > that what was remembered and recited had already been cast into a mould > of tradition, rather than accepting that we have the living words of the > Master before us. First of all, when I studied anthropology, I loved to read about the first anthropologists who went to study the Pygmies in Africa. The Pygmies, of course, have an entirely oral tradition and they had never seen writing in use. They formed the view that the anthropologists were stupid people with feeble memories. "What's wrong? Won't you remember all this?" they would ask. Having been brought up in a non-oral culture, it is very very hard for us to understand and accept the vitality of oral traditions. I think you are seriously underestimating the Pali lineage. You say that the Buddha spoke to individuals or small groups etc and how could this have been transmitted. But he was one of the most famous teachers in all India at the time and there was no shortage of people "hanging off his every word". You will also read in the suttas about people reciting to other people in detail what had just been said. I really don't share your concern in this regard. Now to some questions. As Buddhists, we believe in kamma, action and result. I take it you do not dispute that there are people alive today who have "photographic }emories"? Do you believe that past kamma plays any part at all in these people being born with this remarkable ability? Do you believe in the Buddhist cosmology etc which tells us that a teaching Buddha appears very rarely and it is a great fortune to be alive in the place where one is teaching? Does the past action of the people who were around the Buddha have any significance regarding how they came to be there? Or were they no different from the people we see brawling in the streets of Portugal at the present soccer tournament? Herman, you seem to me to be underestimating your fellow human beings and, in a subtle way, clinging to the wrong view of 'no consequences from actions' and that there is no difference from the time of a teaching Buddha to a time when the Teachings are disappearing. Am I being unfair? What role do you see for "saddha" (confidence, faith)? Is it a strength or a weakness, in your view? With best wishes Andrew 34087 From: Philip Date: Mon Jun 21, 2004 4:46pm Subject: Virtues of the Buddha? Hello all I find these days that for various reasons I am wanting to reflect on the virtues or qualities of the Buddha, but I don't know exactly what they are so I find myself thinking about the Brahma- Viharas. What are the traditional lists, if you will, of the virtues of the Buddha that are used in such recollections? Thanks in advance. And thanks in passing to Sarah and Nina for messages that I won't be able to respond to until tomorrow. And thanks to Christine for the fab Dhammapada links! :) Metta, Phil 34088 From: robmoult Date: Mon Jun 21, 2004 5:44pm Subject: Re: Virtues of the Buddha? Hi Phil, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Philip" wrote: > I find these days that for various reasons I am wanting to > reflect on the virtues or qualities of the Buddha, but I don't know > exactly what they are so I find myself thinking about the Brahma- > Viharas. > > What are the traditional lists, if you will, of the virtues of the > Buddha that are used in such recollections? The list is called Nava Guna Gatha (Nine Great Virtues of the Buddha). There is a Pali devotional chant that recites them as follows: 1. By name He is an Arahant as He is worthy Even in secret He does no evil He attained the fruit of Arahantship To Thee, the Worthy One, my homage be. 2. By wisdom He is Sammasambuddha By teaching He is Sammasambuddha A fully Enlightened one is He in the world To Thee, the fully Enlightened One, my homage be. 3. He is endowed with wisdom and knowledge His wisdom is made known The past, future and present He knows To Thee who is endowed with wisdom and knowledge, my homage be 4. He is Sugata being self-disciplined Being good He is Sugata In the sense of going to the good state of Nibbana To Thee, the Sugata, my homage be. 5. By name He is Lokavidu He knows the past and future Things, beings and space He knows To Thee, the Knower of worlds, my homage be. 6. By wisdom and conduct unrivalled is He Who is the Unrivalled of the world In this world He is revered as an Incomparable One That Incomparable One, I salute. 7. O Charioteer, the King Charioteer A charioteer, a clever trainer is He of Deva Who is a clever charioteer of the world And is a respectful charioteer in this world, That great trainer, I salute. 8. To Devas, Yakkhas and men in this world He gives the highest fruits Among those taming the untamed To Thee, O Remarkable One, my homage be. 9. The Bhagava is repleted with fortune He has destroyed all passions He has crossed the ocean of Samsara To that Blessed One, my homage be. If you want to hear the chant as an MP3 file and/or download a book of Pali devotional chants, these can be found at: http://www.buddhanet.net/audio-chant.htm Metta, Rob M :-) 34089 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Jun 21, 2004 9:04pm Subject: Re: ???Re: [dsg] oral tradition Dear Tzung Kuen, op 21-06-2004 07:20 schreef Mr Tzung-Kuen Wen op s4060239@s...: > But there are still quite a few differencs, the Susimasutta I mentioned in the > letter to Ven Bodhi Bhikkhu is a example. For example, > the Pali and Mahasanghika versions of Susimasutta do nt mention whether or not > the arahants with whom Susima talks attain the rupa jhanas, while the > Saravastivada version clearly says those arahants didn't even attain the first > jhana. N: The Saravastivada version is not Theravada. But I find it very complicated to go into these differerences with other schools which are not Theravada. Before I went into the Susima sutta and we had lots of debates, but now I get too busy with my texts and just want to leave it. Besides my Tiika I also have Thai/Pali texts on the latent tendencies to do. B.B. is well versed in the suttas and it is amazing he finds so many that state that for sotapannas and sakadagamis jhana is not necessary. I do not like to debate now. As I said to Sarah, I find the Puggala Pa~n~natti of the Abhidhamma quite clear on sukkha vipassaka. Also the Commentaries, it is often mentioned. And in the Visuddhimagga. T.Kuen: I like your translation of Vism-mht very much, but I only got two posts about > them one or two days ago. Where to get the old posts on Vism-mht ? N: They are all in the archives, and maybe Sarah or Larry can help you. Larry is leading the whole study. Up til now it was all about rupakkhandha. Now we are with vi~n~naa.nakkhandha. Nina. > > > with metta > > Tzung-kuen > > 34090 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Jun 21, 2004 9:04pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Buddhaghosa Dear Sarah, This is very interesting. How old is this Co, how did you get it. Is it in Burmese and then translated into English? I paid respect at that place and will again in Oct. Nina. op 21-06-2004 09:55 schreef sarah abbott op sarahprocterabbott@y...: > S: [We now have this slim later commentary/life of Buddhaghosa found in > Burma. The relevant passage reads (about Buddhaghosa's death) > > "When he knew that the time for his departure from this world was nigh, he > took leave of his preceptor, approached the Bodhi-tree, recited two > stanzas in praise of it, and, on departing this life, was born in a golden > mansion in the Tusita heaven, to return to this world of men on the coming > of Meteyya, the next Buddha. When he died, men and gods made a funeral > pyre of sandal-wood for the cremation of his body. Raising aloft his > remains on a golden couch,they set fire to the pile with due decorum. His > relics were taken and buried in the vicinity of the Bodhi-tree and shrines > erected over them 34091 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Tue Jun 22, 2004 1:28am Subject: Re: ¦^ÂСGRe: [dsg] B.Bodhi's comments on the Susima Sutta, SN 12:70 (10) Dear Tzungkuen and Swee Boon Excuse me for butting in here, but I have found something directly on the point of your discussion below that you may like to know about. --- Mr Tzung-Kuen Wen wrote: > Dear Swee Boon ... > > I think a beautiful thing about the nikayas is that we can cross > > reference between suttas. And such cross referencing is very > > important in helping us to understand brief statements and phrases. > > I feel that if we cross reference to DN 15, it is very clear that > > an arhant is released both ways if and only if the "cessation of > > perception & feeling" is attained. > > Thanks, I understand your point. DN 15 is much probably use the > cessation of perception of feeling as the cretia for ubhatobhagavimutta. > But DN 15 does not equate 8 vimokkha with the cessation of perception > and feeling which is only the top of them, and the sutta doesn't explain > what if one doesn't attain the 8 vimokkhas. This, I think, makes room > for different interpretations. There is a translation of DN 15 and its commentarial material by Bhikkhu Bodhi published as a separate booklet under the title "The Great Discourse on Causation". In the commentarial material to the section dealing with the eight emancipations there is the following which seems to be relevant to your discussion: <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< [Commentary] The "one liberated in both ways" is fivefold: those who attain arahatship after emerging from one or another of the immaterial attainments, and the one who, having been a non-returner, attains arahatship after emerging from cessation. [Sub-Commentary] Query: When it is said "after emerging from one or another of the immaterial attainments," does this refer to one who attains any one of them or to someone who attains all the immaterial states? Reply: You can understand it either way as you like. If it is stated by way of one who attains all the immaterial states, there is no contradiction. Query: But if it is taken to mean someone who attains only one of them, would that not be contradicted by the statement on the sutta: "When a bhikkhu attains these eight emancipations," etc.? Reply: Someone who attains even one immaterial-sphere jhaana is called a gainer of the eight emancipations, since it is possible to apply the name "eight emancipations" even to a single part of the set. For this designation "eight emancipations" can be attributed to a single part of the set just as well as to the whole. Thus it is said "after emerging from one or another of the immaterial attainments." >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Jon PS Tzungkuen, regarding your question "what is the meaning when the sutta says 'one does not attain the 8 vimokkhas' ?", I could not find this passage in DN 15. I would be interested to know which text/translation you are referring to. 34092 From: christine_forsyth Date: Tue Jun 22, 2004 2:08am Subject: Re: Virtues of the Buddha? Hello Phil,(RobM), and all, This explanation may be of assistance as well: http://www.beyondthenet.net/buddha/qualities.html metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" wrote: > Hi Phil, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Philip" wrote: > > I find these days that for various reasons I am wanting to > > reflect on the virtues or qualities of the Buddha, but I don't know > > exactly what they are so I find myself thinking about the Brahma- > > Viharas. > > > > What are the traditional lists, if you will, of the virtues of the > > Buddha that are used in such recollections? > > The list is called Nava Guna Gatha (Nine Great Virtues of the > Buddha). There is a Pali devotional chant that recites them as > follows: > > 1. By name He is an Arahant as He is worthy > Even in secret He does no evil > He attained the fruit of Arahantship > To Thee, the Worthy One, my homage be. > > 2. By wisdom He is Sammasambuddha > By teaching He is Sammasambuddha > A fully Enlightened one is He in the world > To Thee, the fully Enlightened One, my homage be. > > 3. He is endowed with wisdom and knowledge > His wisdom is made known > The past, future and present He knows > To Thee who is endowed with wisdom and > knowledge, my homage be > > 4. He is Sugata being self-disciplined > Being good He is Sugata > In the sense of going to the good state of Nibbana > To Thee, the Sugata, my homage be. > > 5. By name He is Lokavidu > He knows the past and future > Things, beings and space He knows > To Thee, the Knower of worlds, my homage be. > > 6. By wisdom and conduct unrivalled is He > Who is the Unrivalled of the world > In this world He is revered as an Incomparable One > That Incomparable One, I salute. > > 7. O Charioteer, the King Charioteer > A charioteer, a clever trainer is He of Deva > Who is a clever charioteer of the world > And is a respectful charioteer in this world, > That great trainer, I salute. > > 8. To Devas, Yakkhas and men in this world > He gives the highest fruits > Among those taming the untamed > To Thee, O Remarkable One, my homage be. > > 9. The Bhagava is repleted with fortune > He has destroyed all passions > He has crossed the ocean of Samsara > To that Blessed One, my homage be. > > If you want to hear the chant as an MP3 file and/or download a book > of Pali devotional chants, these can be found at: > > http://www.buddhanet.net/audio-chant.htm > > Metta, > Rob M :-) 34093 From: Herman Hofman Date: Tue Jun 22, 2004 2:19am Subject: RE: [dsg] oral tradition Hi Andrew and everyone, A> Nice to see Herman back again posing more difficult and unfashionable questions! :-) You keep me on the edge of my seat, Herman, but in this instance I have some questions I would like to hear your thoughts on, if you have the time and inclination. See below. ============================================================= H> Sure thing, not a problem :-) ============================= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Herman Hofman" wrote: You talk about the recitation of the texts in groups of hundreds of > people (500 comes up a lot of times in the texts - to me it is > figurative language). Unless these same hundreds were all present each > time the Buddha spoke his living words, what is it that was jointly > remembered and recited? > > The suttas depict the Buddha in solitude, addressing individuals, small > groups, medium groups and large groups, variously composed of lay > people, monks, nuns, royalty, devas, you name it. When did he speak in > the company of the same large groups of saints with impeccable memories? > Your guess is as good as mine. It takes less mental gymnastics to accept > that what was remembered and recited had already been cast into a mould > of tradition, rather than accepting that we have the living words of the > Master before us. ============================================================== A> First of all, when I studied anthropology, I loved to read about the first anthropologists who went to study the Pygmies in Africa. The Pygmies, of course, have an entirely oral tradition and they had never seen writing in use. They formed the view that the anthropologists were stupid people with feeble memories. "What's wrong? Won't you remember all this?" they would ask. Having been brought up in a non-oral culture, it is very very hard for us to understand and accept the vitality of oral traditions. ============================================================== H> This is a very good example to prove your point, and I love the observations of the Pygmies re feeble memories. But I can't just leave it there, sorry :-) I need to ask for all oral traditions, does the oral tradition in question acknowledge the changes within itself over time, or have things been this way or that since memory immemorial? Very bluntly put, traditions that do not acknowledge the flux within them, are not there to give factual accounts. There are aboriginal tribes in North-West Australia, which have Dutch words in their language (eg bootje = little boat), and some of the tribe members have very blonde, very frizzy hair. An anthropological account of this is that shipwrecked Dutch sailors in the 16th and 17th century lived with these tribes, and left a mark. There is no account of these events in the oral traditions, to the best of my knowledge. ======================================================================== A> I think you are seriously underestimating the Pali lineage. You say that the Buddha spoke to individuals or small groups etc and how could this have been transmitted. But he was one of the most famous teachers in all India at the time and there was no shortage of people "hanging off his every word". You will also read in the suttas about people reciting to other people in detail what had just been said. I really don't share your concern in this regard. ======================================================================= H> I want to state very clearly that the historicity of the suttas is not a matter of concern for me. Their value lies not in them being an accurate portrayal of what was said by whom to whom in this place at that time. If a story, a myth, a teaching doesn't do anything for anyone, over time it will disappear from the record, whether oral or written. But I accept that I may well be underestimating the Pali lineage. Will the Buddhist tradition in a hundred years reflect that secular Western archeologists rediscovered the birthplace of the Buddha, buried under 10 feet of history, presumably because the local Indian populace couldn't have cared less? ===================================================================== A> Now to some questions. As Buddhists, we believe in kamma, action and result. I take it you do not dispute that there are people alive today who have "photographic memories"? Do you believe that past kamma plays any part at all in these people being born with this remarkable ability? ================================================================== H> I accept all those things you mention. And I also have a brain segment with a rational ability which is not of my own making :-) Take the following. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/khuddaka/udana/ud4-05.html How is it that the utterances of the Buddha in solitude, of which there are many examples in the suttas, come to be faithfully recited by hundreds? And who was the elephant-mind-reader? ================================================================ A> Do you believe in the Buddhist cosmology etc which tells us that a teaching Buddha appears very rarely and it is a great fortune to be alive in the place where one is teaching? Does the past action of the people who were around the Buddha have any significance regarding how they came to be there? Or were they no different from the people we see brawling in the streets of Portugal at the present soccer tournament? ================================================================= H> I am not sure what you mean here, but I tend to assume that a simpler explanation is more likely to be correct than a more complex one. (Occam's razor). The Tipitaka as an exact verbatim account of what the Buddha said said to whom, when and where beggars belief. But as I said before, it is not a big deal. Tales of Father Christmas and Little Red Riding Hood have more influence than you and I can imagine, while most come to realise they do not represent actual happenings to actual historical beings. I value the teachings in the Tipitaka highly. I do not worship them. The reality the Buddha studied is still there, as anatta, anicca and dukkha as ever. Studying texts about reality is a sidestep, followed by more sidesteps. ================================================================ A> Herman, you seem to me to be underestimating your fellow human beings and, in a subtle way, clinging to the wrong view of 'no consequences from actions' and that there is no difference from the time of a teaching Buddha to a time when the Teachings are disappearing. Am I being unfair? What role do you see for "saddha" (confidence, faith)? Is it a strength or a weakness, in your view? ======================================================== H> You would have to read and reread the accounts of Angulimala, and the brilliantly clear sayings of the Buddha on kamma, without any mental gymnastics, to see if there are consequences from action, and to what extent, if any? But sometimes I seriously wonder whether those who have a "burning need* to have an unshakeable foundation such as an oral tradition turned into glyphs can come to recognize this as the need of an ego that knows it's on shaky ground. Everyone has faith. Each time I move my feet I believe the earth will rise up to meet them. So far, so good. But if the fruit of the teachings is not tested or testable, or if there simply is no fruit to test, than faith is a means by which samsara is propagated. I hope I haven't been too sharp or blunt :-) Herman With best wishes Andrew 34094 From: Sukinderpal Singh Narula Date: Tue Jun 22, 2004 2:31am Subject: Formal Sitting or Natural Arising? (was: Re: Video Games?) Hi Rob Ep, Sorry to be a little late in responding. Our maid left and so I have to help my wife with taking care of the kids. Believe it or not, it is more stressful for me being at home than being at work, my two boys are extremely undisciplined (like me) and disobedient. :-( I now go to parts of your post: > I think the post taken as a whole is a very well-rounded description > of many aspects of the Buddha's path and I understand a little better > some of the differences you emphasize between practices as a vehicle, > versus the objects of practice as realities. > > Still, there is no reason that I see that meditation, taken in the way > you describe, cannot be an excellent vehicle for seeing these realities. > > As for my seeing satipatthana as the fruit of practice, well, I have > to admit I find some confusing contradictions there. It doesn't seem > that there is any way that I can characterize meditation that allows > it to be a ground for satipatthana in the mind of my friends here. I don't know if your perspective has changed since, but allow me to express my own understanding. Study or pariyatti is a level of understanding dhamma where the object is a "concept" about dhamma. This level can be of any degree ranging from a vague idea about the truth of the particular concept, to a reference back from direct experience, hence a deeper and more firm understanding of the concept. This latter also ranges anywhere from directly apprehending the particular characteristics of any given reality to penetrating its tilakkhana. Practice or patipatti, has instead of concept, the `actual characteristic' of the dhamma as object. Here however, it may not refer to the tilakkhana, since after all, the tilakkhana is apprehended by the very high level of panna at the moment of enlightenment, and this would be the realization or pativedha level. This is the basic difference between study and practice. Now why is it called practice? Firstly as you must now understand, it is the jump from `intellectual', `conceptual' understanding, to direct experience of the `realities' what those concepts point to. Secondly, because this necessarily is a slow process involving an ever increasing familiarity with the different realities through the six doorways, it is the same in meaning as practice in the conventional sense, such as playing golf or the piano. Mastery is reached as more practice is done. Only here, unlike conventional activities which can be mastered regardless of one's basic temperament and level of understanding, accumulated ignorance and wrong view constantly arises at all times and at all levels of progress to take us away from walking the middle path. This is why the association with the wise friend is imperative and reference back to the basics, i.e. book knowledge is often the `wise thing' to do. Also take for example when one is having difficulty comprehending something, what does one do? Ask a knowledgeable friend, no? And on being given an answer and conditions are right, isn't there sometimes a level of insight? Does this happen when we intentionally observe our own minds for the same purpose? I think when we do this, we are being lead by lobha and wrong view and this often conditions conceit too. And if indeed the accumulations are good, even at this point it is not too late because `conceit' and `wrong view' are also realities capable of being known. And what happens when one does observe conceit for example? Can one continue to intentionally observe without conditioning more conceit? If panna arises, it must be accompanied by a degree of detachment. I think it is only lobha that conditions wanting to continue with the self-centered observation. I talked earlier about a level of accumulated understanding, saccannana, where one is constantly being reminded about the relevance of coming back to the presently arisen reality. This level is conditioned by a firm intellectual understanding of the Noble Truths informed by much practice (as in conditioned moments of satipatthana). This is not something that anyone can "will". We can't *decide* to observe the present moment. We can only be fooled by ambition to end up being drawn by our projections or else believe wrongly that the Buddha taught us to do such a thing. It seems some are drawn by `intention' and `book knowledge' into believing in conventional idea of `application'. It is as if they are being led by Buddhist concepts which they may only understand *very superficially*, but instead it is as if they know some part of the Teachings well enough to "apply". They may claim to do so in order to understand deeper the meaning, but what about *now*?! How sure are you that what drives you to `observe' or `meditate' is a reliable guide? How do you know if it is not `lobha and wrong view' dictating? If on the one hand you `practice' in order to directly understand dhammas, why on the other hand are you not cautious with regard to the dhamma which propels you to `intentionally observe'? `Sati' is a conditioned reality and many are those conditions. Intention is one of them for sure, but it also arises with wrong view. On the other hand Right View is the leader at the moment of satipatthana. And the function of `intention' is not important with regard to supporting the other path factors in the development of wisdom. We can't talk of developed and accumulated intention, can we? It seems to me that it is the manifestation of `intention' when it accompanies desire and wrong view, that it `seeks and anticipates'. But dhammas arise and fall in an instant and long gone before `we' know it. But `sati and panna' can directly apprehend those realities, and this takes place when the conditions are right, one of which is *not* `deliberate looking'. This latter will only find shadows and make conclusions based on any wrong view accompanying. And in the process it has become attached to the illusion of result and further developed more wrong view. > You now agree with me in the sense that Buddha did encourage jhana for > those in a position to develop it, and that he encouraged others to > see the paramatha dhamma arising in any given situation, position or > activity. But despite this meditation seems to be a problem. You show > how gradual seeds of understanding may be planted by reading the > suttas, and this is the same sense in which I mean that satipatthana > is the "fruit" of meditation, as it is the fruit of whatever > activities cause kusala accumulations. But I don't believe that the Buddha `encouraged' jhana as a means to develop vipassana! He encouraged it as he would any kusala only he further encouraged his audience to "know" it, just as he would encourage anyone who was doing anything else. And in so far that this was his basic attitude, he did not prescribe any `practice' as a means to develop satipatthana, but he would encourage anyone to observe the realities NOW. In suggesting the four factors to Stream Entry, he did not recommend a practice, but simply `described' conditions. It is up to one's own panna to appreciate this and other conditions to whether these conditions will or will not occur. But still, Sutta study is kusala. But this is not talking about an `activity', but rather the understanding of what it means to listen or read words of an enlightened being. This obviously implies an understanding of what those words mean and one's understanding of the true dhamma as against false dhamma. Of course this is `conceptual' and `doing it' is an activity. But this is because I am `describing' it. Reading is reading, listening is listening, dhammas of seeing, visible object, hearing, sound, thinking and so on are involved. Pariyatti is the moment of understanding the concepts and patipatti is when satipatthana arises. And this can happen even when engaging in the activity of study. One difference between formal practice and Sutta study is that `pariyatti' cannot arise without `words', hence the need to actually read and listen. Whereas when engaging in formal practice, `patipatti' can arise, but this would be only if there is no lobha and ditthi. And it is a recurring conclusion in my mind, that `deliberate looking' can only occur with precisely these two mental factors. So Rob, please help me to see where I am wrong in my conclusion. Don't just put Sutta study against formal practice to show where the former can go wrong and in the process justify doing the latter. > You describe a process with studying sutta in which you just do it > with no thought of "having to," but I have no sense that I "have to" > meditate. It's just something I am drawn to do, and I understand it > in the terms that the Buddha describes it. So where is my problem? With the prevailing image of `Buddhist practice' as being associated with `sitting', can you really avoid such a conclusion? Did you practice meditation before hearing about Buddhism? If so, are you continuing with the same basic attitude only now you are observing the mind states involved? Or have you modified your attitudes to be in line with Buddhist philosophy? Your problem? Only you can answer, because only you can know if at any moment there is Right or there is Wrong view. Sorry for the length of the post, which is why I chose to address to you alone. We're quite alike here. ;-) Metta, Sukin 34095 From: christine_forsyth Date: Tue Jun 22, 2004 4:28am Subject: Re: [dsg] oral tradition Hello Herman, all, There was no Teaching given by the Buddha that was not heard by Ananda or **repeated to him by the Buddha if he had not been present. Ananda, with his excellent memory is known as the Guardian of the Dhamma. The Buddda declared him the bhikkhu disciple who was foremost in five categories: 1. of those who had "heard much", i.e. who had learned much of the Buddha's discourses (bahussutaana.m) 2. of those who had a good memory (satimantaana.m) 3. of those who had mastery over the sequential structure of the teachings (gatimanataana.m) 4. of those who were steadfast in study (dhitimantaana.m) and, 5. of the Buddha's attendants (upatthakaana.m). Before he accepted the position of Attendant to the Buddha, he placed certain conditions before the Buddha, who accepted them. " All the monks enthusiastically offered their services, except Ananda, who modestly sat at the back in silence. Later, when asked why he had not volunteered he replied that the Buddha knew best who to pick. When the Buddha indicated that he would like Ananda to be his personal attendant, Ananda said he would accept the position, but only on several conditions. The first four conditions were that the Buddha should never give him any of the food that he received, nor any of the robes, that he should not be given any special accommodation, and that he would not have to accompany the Buddha when he accepted invitations to people's homes. Ananda insisted on these four conditions because he did not want people to think that he was serving the Buddha out of desire for material gain. The last four conditions were related to Ananda's desire to help in the promotion of the Dharma. These conditions were: that if he was invited to a meal, he could transfer the invitation to the Buddha; that if people came from outlying areas to see the Buddha, he would have the privilege of introducing them; that if he had any doubts about the Dharma, he should be able to talk to the Buddha about them at any time and that **if the Buddha gave a discourse in his absence, he would later repeat it in his presence.** The Buddha smilingly accepted these conditions and thus began a relationship between the two men that was to last for the next twenty-five years." 'The Buddha and His Disciples' by Ven. Dhammika metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Herman Hofman" > > H> I am not sure what you mean here, but I tend to assume that a simpler > explanation is more likely to be correct than a more complex one. > (Occam's razor). The Tipitaka as an exact verbatim account of what the > Buddha said said to whom, when and where beggars belief. > 34096 From: Philip Date: Tue Jun 22, 2004 5:26am Subject: Talk with Rob K pt. 11 Anger Hello all The next thing Rob K and I talked about was anger and hostility. This is a topic that arises naturally for me because it's the area in which the Buddha's teachings have helped me the most clearly, I would say *** Phil: I mentioned to the group that I found the fact of being a foreigner in such a homogenous society and being self-conscious about that, though I'm getting over that - being extremely self-conscious. That this would in a sense make it much harder to break free from wrong view of self. Rob: No, I don't think so. I mean, actually we're all alone, completely, there is no self, so it doesn't matter where you are. I feel the same if I'm in Tokyo or Kumamoto (a provincial city) or Bangkok, or New Zealand, or whether I'm in a plane, or whether I'm walking, it's just all the same. Phil: You never feel self-conscious about being a non-Japanese? Rob: Not at all, not at all. Phil: Before coming to Kanagawa (suburbs of Tokyo) I lived in Gify (rural area) for 3 years, and there was a period where I had so much hostility. So much alienation. And I drank too much. There were times when the only way I could take the crowded train home was to have a beer, you know. And it never really got out of hand, but it was getting close. And that's the most explicitly recognizable gift of the BUddha's teaching and especially Abhidhamma's been that the anger and the hostility ?Eit still arises, of course ?Eit's just not overwhelming any more at all. Because when you see through to ?Eeven the intellectual understanding of annata is so liberating. Rob: Absolutely. Absolutely. Phil: The anger's not gone completely, of course. I've got the Irish thing maybe. The other day I was going to fling a dish. Not at Naomi, but because of her. And I actually picked up the dish to fling it and my arm actually stopped. Twice. Rob: That's akusala that picked up the dish. And kusala that stops you from throwing it. Phil: It's funny that very morning I'd read the verse in the Dhammapada about the chariot driver. (He who checks his anger is a true driver ?Eanyone else is just holding the reins.) Rob:I got angry with my girlfriend last month. (Tells anecdote about crossed signals about plans for a trip) But within 10 minutes I said "sorry, sorry." I was quite surprised about how angry I got about this. But it's just - I had these expectations. Even sotapanna you read about them. They cry sometimes, this and that. Even though they understand annata perfectly, (when) enough conditions arise, they can't stop dosa arising too. But they don't have dosa that they're going to kill somebody. That degree of dosa they can't have. Phil: I find in my case when we have a fight that in the past I'd leave the house without making up but now within the space of several minutes a more patient and compassionate side arises and I apologize before I go to work. I don't really intend to. It happens. Rob: That's what happens with me. The anger's still there. But it's something I see immediately as akusala. I'm not trying to justify it to myself. (inaudible) you just know. You can never justify anger. You just see it immediately as akusala. If you're trying to justify it, it just means there's no understanding. But there's never a case in Buddhism when you're right in having anger. You can still recognize someone's done something wrong. But you can't be angry about it to the same degree. Because anger is akusala. Phil: And this is probably the big question, and one has to find the answer by himself but recognizing something as akusala, seeing it, that leads to the gradual eradication of it. Just how does that happen? Rob: Seeing it as annata. Seeing it as conditioned. It's understanding annata that develops right view, that leads to become a sotappana. It's not seeing anger, but seeing any reality as annata. Phil: So again it comes back to right view. Rob: That's the only way. It's not anger per se, but any reality, whether it's anger or seeing or colour. Or wisdom. Whatever dhamma arises if you see it as conditioned reality and not me that is doing it. Phil: A beginner might think, well it's panna, this wisdom that is kind of shining a light that is burning through all my defilements. Rob: Well, I wouldn't put it in such glowing terms. Phil: But it comes back to right understanding. Of the three characteristics. Rob: If you never get angry, how are you going to understand anger? If you never get greedy, how are you going to understand greed? If it's there, and you're using it as the object for insight. And then you're afraid of it. And then you're not worried about it. And then it's not hurting anyone either. It's actually helping you. 34097 From: agriosinski Date: Tue Jun 22, 2004 6:19am Subject: [dsg] Re: Now, what? --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Herman Hofman" wrote: [...] > The problem with logic is that you cannot determine the truth of a > proposition with logic. You can feed many propositions into a computer, > and with infallible logic come out with complete rubbish. The old adage, > rubbish in, rubbish out. > Now you very well point out further down that self is just a thought. > That is a much sounder proposition to feed into the logic machine than > the proposition that the self is an independent agent that can do stuff > of its own accord. Thoughts, at best, can be the basis for more > thoughts, and more thoughts, and more thoughts. And voila, we have > thickets of thoughts (that would sound very if pronounced with a lisp > :-)) Hi Herman, Agreed. Creating this propositions for further logical workout doesn't make any sense. > H>That's what happens with discursive thinking when there are false > premises being fed in. Now one of the things the Buddha is renowned for > is sitting very still, with a focused mind. In this state there is no > discursive thinking going on. No logic. No propositions developing into > enormous thickets. It is not necessary to study the exact nature of the > arrow that is piercing you before you can pull it out, says the Buddha. > ==================================================================== I kind of understood Middle Way as a place between extreme views. It seems to be a place between sensual plays of us common worldlings and ascetics war with senses. And the mind is one of them. metta, Agrios 34098 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Jun 22, 2004 10:33am Subject: Re: [dsg] oral tradition Hi Herman and Andrew, Herman, I hope your family is well. How is the music? I thought of you just before you popped up. I am glad Andrew answered, I am less inclined to debating these days. I agree though, the contents is more important. How does it help us now. Historical arguments do not solve doubts that will keep on creeping in. Such doubts are only completely solved when we directly experience the truth. However, it is also conforting to know that there is a solid tradition of the teachings. op 22-06-2004 01:20 schreef Andrew op athel60@t...: > The > Pygmies, of course, have an entirely oral tradition and they had > never seen writing in use... Having been > brought up in a non-oral culture, it is very very hard for us to > understand and accept the vitality of oral traditions. N:Pygmies is a good example. We should not look down on oral tradition, that is conceit. Formerly, I did not consider so much the solidity of oral tradition, did not see enough the value of it, but some time ago I read an article about the Talmud oral tradition. This gives a very good idea of the principle of oral tradition: outstanding people who recite together and can control each other. The Sanhedrin, the highest Council, was most careful selecting the best people. It is a well founded article written in a sympathetic way. If you are interested: Aish Ha Torah. You can try, this long link worked for me. Especially the end is very instructive. Aish HaTorah - Shavuot My conclusion was: all those wise arahats, carefully selected at each of the councils, reciting together is a guarantee for the solidity and faithfulness of the tradition. That is how I see it. Nina. 34099 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Jun 22, 2004 10:33am Subject: Re: [dsg] Virtues of the Buddha? Hello Philip, Rob M sent you beautiful stanzas. I would just like to add a few words. op 22-06-2004 01:46 schreef Philip op plnao@j...: > > What are the traditional lists, if you will, of the virtues of the > Buddha that are used in such recollections? N: Through the practice of what the Buddha taught we come to have a deeper understanding of his wisdom, his purity and his compassion. Studying the teachings with respect means: studying and developing understanding. We show him the greatest respect by awareness and understanding of a rupa or a nama that appears. When hardness appears that can be realized as a kind of rupa, when sound appears that can be realized as another kind of rupa. When hearing appears that can be realized as a kind of nama. As understanding grows, our confidence in the Buddha and our respect for him grows. We can recite texts to give expression to our respect, but most important is satipatthana. We also learn by satipatthana that showing respect is not ours, our kusala. Nina. 34100 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Jun 22, 2004 10:33am Subject: Perseverance in Dhamma, Ch 6, no 2 Perseverance in Dhamma, Ch 6, no 2 When we are dreaming or thinking, the object is a concept. Seeing is different from thinking, seeing is a paramattha dhamma. This has to be known over and over again by sati and paññå, by sati-sampajañña, at the moment they occur. When we have a notion of an image, of details, of shape and form, it is not seeing that experiences visible object, but it is thinking of concepts. If we try to focus on seeing or visible object with an idea of self, we are thinking, not seeing visible object. Then the understanding of paramattha dhammas is doomed to failure. We should asked ourselves whether there is any understanding of what dhamma is. Such understanding is the foundation for satipaììhåna. Only through satipatthåna we shall know without fail what dhamma is and what a concept. People wonder what satiptthåna exactly is. The word satipatthåna has three meanings. In the Commentary to the Book of Analysis, the Dispeller of Delusion (I, Ch 7, A. Suttanta Division) it is said: ³...There are three kinds of foundation of mindfulness, satipatthåna: 1. the domain of mindfulness (sati gocaro) 2. the Master¹s threefold surpassing of resentment and gratification (delight) as regards the entry of his disciples [on the way of practice]. 3. mindfulness (sati). As to the domain of mindfulness, sati gocara, this refers to the object of sati, the objects of mindfulness grouped as the four Applications of Mindfulness: Mindfulness of body, of feelings, of cittas and of dhammas. As to the third meaning: mindfulness, sati, this refers to sati cetasika that is aware of the characteristics of realities. As regards the second meaning, satipatthåna that is the Master¹s threefold surpassing of resentment and gratification (delight) as regards the entry of his disciples [on the way of practice], this is the way along which the Buddha and his disciples went. The ³Discourse on the Analysis of the Sixfold Sense-field² (Middle Length Sayings² III, no 137) explains that the Buddha is untroubled, mindful and clearly conscious when disciples who listen to the Dhamma turn away, when some of them pay attention but others do not, or when they pay attention to his words. It is said that disciples who are like the Tathågata in this way are ³fit to instruct a group², thus, fit to explain the Dhamma to others. **** Nina. 34101 From: Andrew Date: Tue Jun 22, 2004 4:28pm Subject: Re: [dsg] oral tradition Hi Herman Thanks for your reply. I can see nothing too blunt or sharp in it. On the contrary, it is well said. I like your posts, even when they are disagreeing with my views! (-: My own post was a bit rushed and muddled. If I can put it in a nutshell, all I wanted to say was "stay open to the tradition". I once read a book by Jacques Ellul in which he said that one of the great underlying sentiments/beliefs of modern humanity is that history is progressive i.e. that we are superior to our ancestors. As I see it, this belief tends to underlie modern scepticism about the achievements of our ancestors ("How could they have possibly done all that way back then??"). And such sceptisism is a two edged sword. I take on board your comments about the oral transmission of hunter/gatherer societies (noting that the Aborigines have a tradition of not speaking about a person after his or her death). The obvious thing to note here, of course, is that the Sangha was so much more organised and focussed on the memorisation task than a few hunter/gatherer story reciters. My mind is open to the likelihood that they, by and large, achieved what they set out to achieve. All in all, though, Herman, I think you yourself hit the nail on the head with this comment: --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Herman Hofman" wrote: > Everyone has faith. Each time I move my feet I believe the earth will > rise up to meet them. So far, so good. But if the fruit of the teachings > is not tested or testable, or if there simply is no fruit to test, than > faith is a means by which samsara is propagated. Even those people who protest "I don't believe in this" and "I don't believe in that" may still experience saddha as a beautiful cetasika from time to time. Faith is not "owned" by any particular person. It's a momentary thing, conditioned and without a self that is faithful. I wonder though, Herman, when you are questioning the likelihood of the Buddha's teachings being accurately transmitted without writing for such a long period of time, what exactly are you "testing"? Are you testing any particular teaching or are you just being generally sceptical? If the latter (and I have moments of it, too, BTW), I think that is akusala and samsaric. Thanks to Christine for the interesting info on Ananda, and to Nina too. Best wishes to all Andrew 34102 From: Philip Date: Tue Jun 22, 2004 5:49pm Subject: Complication (was Re: Dustrags) Hi Sarah, and all S: > I said I'd add a little more on dustrags;-) > Ph:> > And isn't there a kind of conceit in this thinking? (snip) > > Dustrags can be conceited too. "Look at the footprints on me!" > .... > S: You mean like Uriah Heep who was so proud of being humble if I recall? > Yes, conceit can arise on account of anything and it may be true -- you > may be more humble! But at these times there is no understanding of the > `dustrag?Ewhich is the opposite to the `banner?Eof conceit -- even if it > is one of (rightly) being more humble and unassuming. Ph: Come to think of it, I didn't mean to suggest that it is likely that annoying of even a fair modicum of understanding would fall victim to that kind of gross conceit. (ie "look at the footprints on me") And indeed, it is not so much the topic of conceit that interests me, but unnessary complication. We are bound to think conceptually - we need to to survive in the world- but should it be encouraged as a method of right understanding? It just seemed to me that the whole simile of the dustrag is unnecessarily complicated. If we have understanding of annata and the other characteristics - even intellectual knowledge - why not go straight there? Isn't giving rise to the simile of a dustrag a kind of papanca that we could avoid? I am just beginning to learn about papanca. I think the most common translation is proliferation, but the commentary I read used complication, in a footnote in Vism IV 33 "he diversifies" is used. Can't right understanding of the three characteristics do away with the need to think of oneself as a dustrag? As I said before, I like concepts and have had similar practices. I remember reading that Thich Nhat Han encouraged us to think of ourselves as flowers, offering freshing to others, and I thought this was also a useful simile to think of impermanence. I used it quite a lot, and I think it was useful to help me begin to broach the three characteristics. But now I am thinking there are more direct ways to get at the three characteristics, even for someone with my limited understanding. And as concepts go, it seems the dutrag is more complicated in other ways, suggesting that we absorb the akusala behaviour of others. Maybe I am thinking too literally. In K Sujin's teaching, a dustrug is a symbol of being a nobody, which I can appreciate the wisdom of, not necessarily with the connotation of soking up other people's toxins. Personally, I prefer using symbols of water that wash away defilements. Water seems much less complicated. I'm think of AN 130, the Lekha Sutta. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an03-130.html I would rather be letters written in water that washes away concern with other people's behaviour based on right understanding than a dustrug that sounds more subject to other people's behaviour. And which has a more concrete feeling self-image. S: > We also know that because of the attachment to self and finding oneself so > important, we cling to the 8 worldly conditions and very seldom see the > value of being a `nobody?Eor a dust-rag as Sariputta did. On one of our > trips to India, K.Sujin talked a lot about the value of reflecting in this > very way. When I first heard it, again the banner would start waving and I > was aware of how much discomfort there was at considering the value of > being a door-mat that anyone could criticise or trample over. Ph: Again, in my case it's not really discomfort about being trampled over. "Wise men live in low places - like water" is a passage I always remember from on of the Chinese philosophers. (I think you would know who it is.) But I would have thought we would choose a more direct method of rightly understanding oneself as a nobody. S:>Gradually, > I've come to appreciate these reminders more and more and to see what > precious `treasure?Ethey are. Ph: I agree. And how much mroe precious being able to get right at understanding annata. This is actually something I talked about with Rob K. I told him about the Thich Nhat Hahn flower simile. He said that when he teaches his students in Japan, he gets right at what is happening here and now. So willingly hang on to concepts such as dust rags. "Don't hang around the entry gate?" as I put it at the time. "No," he said. "Because it can lead to wrong understanding" he replied, or words to that effect. S quoting Nina:> "Khun Sujin had reminded us in India to become like a dustrag which serves > for wiping the feet. A dustrag takes up filth and is undisturbed by it. > One should become as humble as a dustrag. Sariputta, who could forgive > anybody, no matter whether that person treated him in an unjust manner, > compared himself with a dustrag. Ph: If we udnerstand that people behave the way they do because of conditions, if we understand the three characteristics, even in a basic intellectual way, why do we have to compare oneself with a dustrag. I suppse I do have sort of resistance to this idea. It sounds so darn Christian! (I remember reading Meister Eckhardt say "he who is a servant is already a great man." That sounds more like it could lead to conceit potentially.) S quoting Nina: >He had no conceit. When right > understanding has been developed one will cling less to the self, there > will be more humbleness. During the discussions Khun Sujin said again: > > I would like to be a dustrag. I follow the way to be one, it is my > resolution. Our resolution means that we take action by developing > understanding and metta. Ph: I would have thought that when right understanding has been developed there will be humbleness, naturally, but no thinking of it conceptually in terms of things like dustrags. S quoting Nina:> It is beneficial to be reminded again of the dustrag, because humbleness > seems to go against our nature. Ph: It seems to me that direct investigation of annata goes against our nature more. Humbleness is a kind of self-image, and any kind of self-image is comforting compared to letting go of all self-images. I'll have to stop there. I'll just add one more passage from Nina's last installment of Perseverence in Dhamma (Ch 6 pt 2 if I'm not mistaken.): "When we have a notion of an image, of details, of shape and form, it is not seeing that experiences visible object, but it is thinking of concepts. If we try to focus on seeing or visible object with an idea of self, we are thinking, not seeing visible object. Then the understanding of paramattha dhammas is doomed to failure." Ph: So, again an encouragement here to get right at paramattha dhammas instead of lingering with concepts. The only reason I'm insisting on this is that it is a little bit confusing to usually be encouraged to get directly at paramattha dhammas and then on the other hand to be encouraged to think conceptually about oneself - whether it is as a dustrug or a flower or water. So it is not really the matter of being trampled on that bothers me, but just a bit of confusion about why this kind of conceptual practice slipped in. Thanks for your feedback, Sarah. I'd be happy to carry on with this discussion. Maybe it could be more in the area of "concepts vs realities" or "complication" (papanca) rather than conceit. I'm very interested in starting to understand papanca these days, and am wondering about to what degree we are to let go of complication/proliferation/diversification and get right at realities. To what degree can we be like the one who "stops at what is merely seen" or "apprehends what is really there" as Vism I 54 has it.(Not sure what sutta it is referring to - Visuddhimaga is quite hard to figure out!:) Metta, Phil 34103 From: Philip Date: Tue Jun 22, 2004 5:58pm Subject: Typos Hi all Found some typos in my recent posts. I wouldn't bother pointing them out except that two of them completely changed the meaning of key sentences! In my last installment of Talk with Rob K, it should be "we are not afraid" not "we are afraid" of seeing anger when it arises. In the precious post about dustrags, it should be we "we don't hang on to self-images" not "we hang on to self-images." And "anyone with a modicum of understanding." Not "annoying with a modicum of understanding." Though the latter may be more accurate in my case! I'll be more careful about poof-reading from now on. Metta, Phil 34104 From: Herman Hofman Date: Tue Jun 22, 2004 6:24pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Typos Hi Philip, Nice to read your posts. The following cracked me up :-) >I'll be more careful about poof-reading from now on. With good cheer Herman 34105 From: Herman Hofman Date: Tue Jun 22, 2004 7:06pm Subject: RE: [dsg] oral tradition Hi Andrew, Thanks for the pointer to stay open to tradition. Yes, I agree that the tradition can be valuable in its own right. The solidity of the Theravadan tradition can certainly be a great magnet to draw people to the "doctor". Eventually, however, it is up to each of us whether we take the prescribed medicine or not. I think I err on the side of skepticism in my statements about traditions because I fear that sometimes it is considered enough just to be a part of this great millennia-long tradition, that belonging will somehow work some vicarious magic :-). I know for myself that there is nothing curative about the tradition; neither is there any salutary value in just how historically accurate its self-portrayal is. It is the practice (in whatever form that may be) that sets people free. It is the results that prove that the recipe was right. I am also aware of the very fine line between respect and reverence/worship. I think the latter is a detrimental state of mind in itself, and more so because it can be confused with respect. As Nina says, the greatest respect one can pay a teacher is to follow their advice. Practical respect for the tradition and teacher is very sound practice, while a worshipful attitude can lead to silabatta-paramasa (oh, that word :-)), which stands in the way of stream-entry. I agree with you about the dangers of viewing history as being progressive, and it is good to be reminded of faith as intentionless, momentary arising. Thank you, and Christine and Nina too Herman -----Original Message----- From: Andrew [mailto:athel60@t...] Sent: Wednesday, 23 June 2004 9:29 AM To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [dsg] oral tradition Hi Herman Thanks for your reply. I can see nothing too blunt or sharp in it. On the contrary, it is well said. I like your posts, even when they are disagreeing with my views! (-: My own post was a bit rushed and muddled. If I can put it in a nutshell, all I wanted to say was "stay open to the tradition". I once read a book by Jacques Ellul in which he said that one of the great underlying sentiments/beliefs of modern humanity is that history is progressive i.e. that we are superior to our ancestors. As I see it, this belief tends to underlie modern scepticism about the achievements of our ancestors ("How could they have possibly done all that way back then??"). And such sceptisism is a two edged sword. I take on board your comments about the oral transmission of hunter/gatherer societies (noting that the Aborigines have a tradition of not speaking about a person after his or her death). The obvious thing to note here, of course, is that the Sangha was so much more organised and focussed on the memorisation task than a few hunter/gatherer story reciters. My mind is open to the likelihood that they, by and large, achieved what they set out to achieve. All in all, though, Herman, I think you yourself hit the nail on the head with this comment: --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Herman Hofman" wrote: > Everyone has faith. Each time I move my feet I believe the earth will > rise up to meet them. So far, so good. But if the fruit of the teachings > is not tested or testable, or if there simply is no fruit to test, than > faith is a means by which samsara is propagated. Even those people who protest "I don't believe in this" and "I don't believe in that" may still experience saddha as a beautiful cetasika from time to time. Faith is not "owned" by any particular person. It's a momentary thing, conditioned and without a self that is faithful. I wonder though, Herman, when you are questioning the likelihood of the Buddha's teachings being accurately transmitted without writing for such a long period of time, what exactly are you "testing"? Are you testing any particular teaching or are you just being generally sceptical? If the latter (and I have moments of it, too, BTW), I think that is akusala and samsaric. Thanks to Christine for the interesting info on Ananda, and to Nina too. Best wishes to all Andrew 34106 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Jun 22, 2004 9:04pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Talk with Rob K pt. 11 Anger Dear Philip, thank you very much. I like the end especially. op 22-06-2004 14:26 schreef Philip op plnao@j...: > Rob: If you never get angry, how are you going to understand anger? > If you never get greedy, how are you going to understand greed? If > it's there, and you're using it as the object for insight. And then > you're afraid of it. And then you're not worried about it. And then > it's not hurting anyone either. It's actually helping you. N: As A. Sujin said, we have to understand first nama and rupa before we really know what kusala is and what akusala is. We are mostly thinking about kusala and akusala. I quote from Perseverance again: Intellectual understanding of us beginners helps, but it is not as effective as direct understanding. However, we can begin to be aware of akusala instead of being worried about it as Rob explained. Nina. 34107 From: christine_forsyth Date: Wed Jun 23, 2004 0:56am Subject: Re: [dsg] Typos Hello Phil, all, I smiled at your typos - as you point out, they can sometimes completely change the meaning of a sentence. It reminds me also that punctuation is important and can cause confusion. (I have particular trouble with apostrophes.) I'm sure you've all heard the one about the Panda (I repeat it here for the benefit of those who have so far avoided it): "A panda walks into a cafe. He orders a sandwich, eats it, then draws a gun and fires two shots in the air. "Why?" asks the confused waiter, as the panda makes towards the exit. The panda produces a badly punctuated wildlife manual and tosses it over his shoulder. "I'm a panda," he says, at the door. "Look it up." The waiter turns to the relevant entry and, sure enough, finds an explanation. "PANDA. Large black-and-white bear-like mammal, native to China. Eats, shoots and leaves." metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- p.s. Speaking of exotic animals, I found out what happened to Gucci the Hong Kong croc ... http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/200406/s1138082.htm --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Herman Hofman" wrote: > Hi Philip, > > Nice to read your posts. > > The following cracked me up :-) > > > > >I'll be more careful about poof-reading from now on. > > With good cheer > > Herman 34108 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Jun 23, 2004 1:05am Subject: Re: [dsg] Complication (was Re: Dustrags) Hi Phil, --- Philip wrote: > > Ph: Come to think of it, I didn't mean to suggest that it is likely > that anyone with even a fair modicum of understanding would fall > victim to that kind of gross conceit. (ie "look at the footprints on > me") .... S: On the other hand, I think the subtler (and not much subtler) versions creep in all the time.:-) ..... >And indeed, it is not so much the topic of conceit that > interests me, but unnessary complication. We are bound to think > conceptually - we need to to survive in the world- but should it be > encouraged as a method of right understanding? .... S: I don't read these examples (eg dustrag metaphor) as being an encouragement to think conceptually or 'complicate'. I think that just as certain metaphors or similes we read or hear about may be conditions for wise reflection on the brahma viharas or parami or even for moments of right understanding arising, so may others be helpful reminders of the danger of conceit or clinging to self and the value of detachment or wisdom too. It just depends on the time and our tendencies. Yesterday, Jon and I were sitting on the beach (Dragon Boat festival here), reading posts. When he read out the quotes I'd included about dustrags I found it a condition then and there for helpful reflection about the extent of commonly arising conceit and the value of being a 'nobody'. A little later, I was aware of 'self-importance' and conceit arising as usual when a neighbour turned on his radio ('I wouldn't do that', I thought), a child kicked some sand onto our mat ('I'd be more careful') and I smuggly persuaded the coffee kiosk to let me bring my tea to our mat in the shade ('others have to drink in the heat at the kiosk'). It's anatta and arises like all dhammas by conditions. It's not a matter of trying to spot it or think in any special way, but what we've just read or heard or considered can be a condition for awareness then and there. ..... > It just seemed to me that the whole simile of the dustrag is > unnecessarily complicated. If we have understanding of annata and the > other characteristics - even intellectual knowledge - why not go > straight there? Isn't giving rise to the simile of a dustrag a kind > of papanca that we could avoid? ... S: As with any similes, best to just let them go if they're not helpful. It doesn't mean we should think of anything special. Understanding of anatta and characteristics is the same as understanding of realities. This understanding has to develop and develop. We may think we know what the characteristics of conceit or attachment or anger are, but usually, this knowledge is just an idea about the more obvious features with an idea of something other than the fleeting momentary mental factors. ..... >I am just beginning to learn about > papanca. I think the most common translation is proliferation, but > the commentary I read used complication, in a footnote in Vism IV > 33 "he diversifies" is used. Can't right understanding of the three > characteristics do away with the need to think of oneself as a > dustrag? .... S: Of course there can be wise and unwise reflection (i.e papanca) of anything including dustrags. If one has the idea that one should think of oneself as a dustrag, it might be yet another ritual and definitely a kind of papanca, I agree. As a side note, understanding of the three characteristics always relates *the characteristics of realities*. There cannot be the understanding of anatta without understanding the characteristic of seeing or visible object or conceit, for example. It is the understanding of these realities as anatta that is meant. ..... > As I said before, I like concepts and have had similar practices. .... S: I don't think this is what is meant at all with the dust-rag simile. It's a reminder right now about clinging to self and conceit and the value of relinquishment. It's also a reminder (for me) to reflect on the qualities of the Buddha,Sariputta and others who were totally unmoved, like the earth, by what was spat or discarded upon them. It's not a practice or thing to do. Again, as some of us stress, the suttas can be read as descriptions, not prescriptions or steps to follow with an idea of ritual or self. <...> As with your other flower example, we can read anything with the idea of self and rules or not. It depends on the understanding rather than what we read. .... > And as concepts go, it seems the dustrag is more complicated in > other ways, suggesting that we absorb the akusala behaviour of > others. .... S: We're not responsible for others behaviour which depends on its own complex set of conditions. What we experience depends on conditions too, including previous kamma. We can appreciate the value of wholesome states like metta, karuna and upekkha, generosity, forgiveness and wisdom with detachment at any time whatever is experienced. If there is conceit or anger, there can be awareness too. No complication! No need to think out long stories or proliferate further. ..... >Maybe I am thinking too literally. In K Sujin's teaching, a > dustrug is a symbol of being a nobody, which I can appreciate the > wisdom of, not necessarily with the connotation of soking up other > people's toxins. .... S: She's say straight away that it's not her teaching but the Buddha's. I think the connotation is more one of detachment than 'soaking up'. Being undisturbed by not finding oneself important in any way. No banner flying at this time. .... > Personally, I prefer using symbols of water that wash away > defilements. Water seems much less complicated. I'm think of AN 130, > the Lekha Sutta. > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an03-130.html > > I would rather be letters written in water that washes away concern > with other people's behaviour based on right understanding than a > dustrug that sounds more subject to other people's behaviour. And > which has a more concrete feeling self-image. .... S: I like this a lot too: "And how is an individual like an inscription in water? There is the case where a certain individual -- when spoken to roughly, spoken to harshly, spoken to in an unpleasing way -- is nevertheless congenial, companionable, & courteous. Just as an inscription in water immediately disappears and doesn't last a long time, in the same way a certain individual -- when spoken to roughly, spoken to harshly, spoken to in an unpleasing way -- is nevertheless congenial, companionable, & courteous. This is called an individual like an inscription in water." .... S: Wonderful sutta. Similar message - perhaps the dust-rag just takes it a little further. Indeed it's a kindness to forget the 'inscription in water immediately' - a kind of dana or forgiveness again. No grudges or papanca. Thank you for this one. .... > Ph: Again, in my case it's not really discomfort about being > trampled over. "Wise men live in low places - like water" is a > passage I always remember from on of the Chinese philosophers. (I > think you would know who it is.) But I would have thought we would > choose a more direct method of rightly understanding oneself as a > nobody. .... S: Yes, it depends on accumulations. LIke you, without some appreciation of Abhidhamma first, I'm not sure the following reflections alone would ever condition an appreciation of anatta. Now I find them priceless. From the PTS translation (Hare) it is in Bk of 9s, Ch 11 'The Lion Roar', i,11 (as Jim said) and also in B.Bodhi's "Numerical Discourses of the Buddha', under 'Sariputta's Lion's Roar', p231. "Just as, Lord, people throw upon the earth things clean and unclean, dung, urine, spittle, pus and blood, yet for all that the earth has no revulsion, loathing or disgust towards it; even so, Lord, do I dwell with a heart that is like the earth, vast, exalted and measureless, without hostility and without ill will. However, one in whom mindfulness directed on the body in regard to the body is not present may well hit a fellow monk and leave without an apology. "Just as. Lord, people use water to wash things clean and unclean, things soiled....... "Just as, Lord, fire burns things clean and unclean, things soiled.... "Just as, Lord, the wind blows over things clean and unclean..... "Lord, just as a duster *[S: i.e dust-rag]* wipes over things clean and unclean, things soiled with dung, urine, pus and blood, yet for all that the duster has no revulsion, loathing or disgust towards it; even so, Lord, do I dwell with a heart that is like a duster.... "Lord, just as an outcast boy or girl, begging-vessel in hand and clad in rags, enters a village with a humble heart; even so, Lord, do I dwell with a heart like that of an outcast youth, a heart that is vast, exalted and measureless, without hostility and without ill will...... ***** <...> > Ph: I would have thought that when right understanding has been > developed there will be humbleness, naturally, but no thinking of it > conceptually in terms of things like dustrags. ... S: Agreed. As you can see, Sariputta still used metaphors of dustrags and many others in order to help others appreciate the value of certain qualities. .... > Ph: It seems to me that direct investigation of annata goes against > our nature more. Humbleness is a kind of self-image, and any kind of > self-image is comforting compared to letting go of all self-images. .... S: If the consideration leads to more attachment to self (i.e more self-image), then I agree it's worse than useless. Like you said to Nori I think, (very rough paraphrase) -- it's hard enough to know our own cittas, no need to worry about the others'. ..... > I'll have to stop there. I'll just add one more passage from > Nina's last installment of Perseverence in Dhamma (Ch 6 pt 2 if I'm > not mistaken.): > > "When we have a notion of an image, of details, of shape and > form, it is not seeing that experiences visible object, but it is > thinking > of concepts. If we try to focus on seeing or visible object with an > idea of > self, we are thinking, not seeing visible object. Then the > understanding of > paramattha dhammas is doomed to failure." > > Ph: So, again an encouragement here to get right at paramattha > dhammas instead of lingering with concepts. ... S: Excelellent quote. Like in the 'inscription in water' metaphor, there is no suggestion of 'lingering with concepts' -- quite the contrary. <..> I read the 'inscription in water', 'dustrag' and other examples as being reminders not to attend to 'image and details' or to think conceptually about oneself. In other words, they are reminders of the guarding of the sense doors (as compared to proliferations about 'what happened to me etc') and reminders of paramattha dhammas being experienced at this very moment. We might think we've been spoken to harshly, but in truth only sound was heard. Why is there a long story and attention to image, shape and details? Ignorance, conceit and attachment to self (i.e the opposite of the dustrag or inscription in water) as was shown in the 'inscription in rock' from the Lekha Sutta again: "And how is an individual like an inscription in rock? There is the case where a certain individual is often angered, and his anger stays with him a long time. Just as an inscription in rock is not quickly effaced by wind or water and lasts a long time, in the same way a certain individual is often angered, and his anger stays with him a long time. This is called an individual like an inscription in rock. .... <...> >I'm very > interested in starting to understand papanca these days, and am > wondering about to what degree we are to let go of > complication/proliferation/diversification and get right at > realities. ... S: As you've said, understanding of realities leads naturally to seeing the dangers of papanca(proliferation) which arises with all unwholesome cittas. No self or rules involved, however;-) .... >To what degree can we be like the one who "stops at what > is merely seen" or "apprehends what is really there" as Vism I 54 > has it.(Not sure what sutta it is referring to - Visuddhimaga is > quite hard to figure out!:) .... S: Good reference. This is the function of pa~n~naa and sati -- not to apprehend the signs (nimitta) or particulars (anubya~njana), i.e guarding of the sense doors momentarily like Sariputta in the sutta above. Again, as you've stressed, these mental states are anatta too. Glad to discuss further. I find your comments very helpful and perceptive. Metta, Sarah p.s Thank you for your kind and encouraging posts on 'Abhidhamma' to others too. I learn from these as well;-) ===== 34109 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Jun 23, 2004 1:31am Subject: Bodhi: The Jhaanas and the Lay Disciple According to the Paali Suttas (7) The Jhaanas and the Lay Disciple According to the Paali Suttas Ven. Bhikkhu Bodhi Jhaana and the Attainment of Stream-entry (5) TThe faith-follower and the Dhamma-follower are the lowest members of a sevenfold typology of noble persons mentioned in the Nikaayas as an alternative to the more common scheme of "the four pairs of persons," the four path-attainers and the realizers of their respective fruits.[18] The seven fall into three groups. At the apex are the arahants, who are distinguished into two types: (i) "both-ways-liberated" arahants (ubhatobhaagavimutta), who gain release from the taints together with deep experience of the formless attainments; and (ii) "wisdom-liberated" arahants (pa--aavimutta), who win release from the taints without such experience of the formless attainments. Next are three types in the intermediate range, from stream-enterers up to those on the path to arahantship. These are: (iii) the body-witness (kaayasakkhii), who has partly eliminated the taints and experiences the formless attainments; (iv) the view-attainer (di.t.thippatta), who does not experience the formless attainments and has partly eliminated the taints, with emphasis on wisdom; and (v) the faith-liberated (saddhaavimutta), who does not experience the formless attainments and has partly eliminated the taints, with emphasis on faith. Any disciple at the six intermediate stages - from stream-enterer to one on the path to arahantship - can fall into any of these three categories; the distinctions among them are not determined by degree of progress but by mode of progress, whether through strong concentration, wisdom, or faith. Finally come the two kinds of anusaarii (vi-vii), who are on the path to stream-entry. What is noteworthy about this list is that samaadhi, as a faculty, does not determine a class of its own until after the fruit of stream-entry has been realized. That is, facility in concentration determines a distinct type of disciple among the arahants (as the both-ways-liberated arahant) and among the aspirants for the higher stages (as the body-witness), but not among the aspirants for stream-entry. In this lowest category we have only the faith-follower and the Dhamma-follower, who owe their status to faith and wisdom, respectively, but there is no type corresponding to the body-witness.[19] ****** Notes 18. The fullest discussion of this sevenfold typology is at MN I 477-79. The seven types are also defined, somewhat differently, at Pp 14-15. 19. One possible exception to this statement is a curious sutta, AN 7:53/ IV 78. Here the Buddha begins by discussing the first six types, of which the first two are said to be "without residue" (anupaadisesa), i.e., of defilements, which means that they are arahants; the next four are said to be "with residue" (sa-upaadisesa), meaning they have some defilements and thus are not yet arahants. But in the seventh position, where we would expect to find the saddhaanusaarii, he inserts instead "the seventh type, the person who dwells in the signless" (sattama.m animittavihaari.m puggala.m). This is explained as "a monk who, through non-attention to all signs, enters and dwells in the signless mental concentration" (bhikkhu sabbanimittaana.m amanasikaaraa animitta.m cetosamaadhi.m upasampajja viharati). This assertion seems to open up, as an alternative to the faith-follower, a class of aspirants for stream-entry who specialize in concentration. But this passage is unique in the Nikaayas and has not formed the basis for an alternative system of classification. Moreover, the commentary explains the "signless mental concentration" to be "strong insight concentration" (balava-vipassanaa-samaadhi), so called because it removes the signs of permanence, pleasure, and selfhood. (See Mp IV 40 PTS ed.; II 720 SHB ed.) Thus it is questionable whether even the recognition of this type means that samatha concentration determines a class of disciple on the path to stream-entry. 34110 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Jun 23, 2004 2:40am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Stealing (was: Bodhi: The Jhaanas .....) Hi Christine, Azita & All, --- christine_forsyth wrote: > I don't mean to be going on about this - but this is a little scary. > I thought it was only the major questions in life that I wasn't > right on top of - anatta, rebirth, kamma, you know - the usual > suspects :-). I wonder if it isn't those questions that should be > taking up most of my reflection time, but rather getting to know > myself and the world I live in as we really are. ... S: I think this is a good point and there shouldn't be any conflict or distinction between our study of Dhamma and 'getting to know 'oneself' and the world 'we' live in as 'we' really are'. As Azita said, before we heard the Dhamma, there was perversion of perception (and all the other perversions too, but we had no idea. Understanding a little more about what isn't known is a good sign. When I gave the example of the puppies, I was also thinking of all the kittens we used to give away as a family too(a 'cat' family;-)). There isn't necessarily or usually any idea of stealing at these times just as there isn't for those country folk here I mentioned who might think they own the wild life at their door-steps. From the commentary on the Minor Readings (Paramatthajotikaa), PTS, The Ten Training Precepts,p21: "Now when someone, in the case of some such thing already taken possession of by another, perceives it as something already taken possession of by another, then 'taking what is not given' is his choice to steal, occurring in either the body door or the speech door, and originating the active pprocess of taking that." In other words, it depends on the perception of the one taking the action. If we sleep-walk or day-dream and take something not belonging to us, it doesn't mean there's any stealing involved, regardless of what the police might say. Like in killing, there are five factors involved: a) the object is in another's possession b) the one taking the object is aware of a) c) there is knowledge of stealing d) an effort to steal is made e) the object is taken As with killing, there are different degrees of 'blame' depending on various factors such as intention, size and so on. We also read in Dispeller (Sammohavinodani, PTS, Training Precepts p121)*: "Taking of what is not given, belonging to one of bad conduct, is less to blame; more than that, that belonging to one of cattle-like virtue; more than that, that belonging to one who has gone for refuge.....to one who keeps the five precepts of training.....to a novice....to an ordinary bhikkhu....to as Stream Enterer.....to a Once Returner.... to a Non-Returner... [taking what is not given] belonging to one whose cankers are destroyed is far more to blame than that." Metta, Sarah *Nina wrote recently about 'blame' in this context: >N: blamelessness is another word for purity of citta, or faultlessness. Anavajja, blame-worthy, avajja, is the opposite. Inferior or faulty. I also read in some texts: to be blamed by the wise. There is no need to think of a situation of persons who blame someone else. Akusala kamma are blame-worthy. That is a fixed order of Dhamma, it is in the nature of akusala kamma to be faulty or blameworthy. Some akusala kamma are mahaa-saavajja: very blameworthy. In Dispeller of Delusion ( II p. 120) different gradations of blamefulness are explained. Killing of an arahat is more to blame than the killing of others, etc. Drinking a small measure of liquor is less to blame, is more to blame. Drinking which causes bodily unsteadiness in one who destroys a villlage or town is much more to blame. When someone harms others they will blame him. When someone harms himself by akusala kamma even when others do not know, that kamma can bring an unpleasant result. < ======== 34111 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Jun 23, 2004 2:56am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: What is right view ? How right view ? Hi Bill (& Nori), Welcome to DSG! I meant to include you in my last letter on 'Killing'. I hope it's of interest to you. Like the others who responded, I enjoyed your comments to Nori and Nori, it's great to see you around again and thanks for sharing your experiences and reflections. --- Bill Saint-Onge wrote: >Somewhere > there is a balance point between 'self'-discovery and following the > guidance of a teacher who has been there before. .... S: Yes, and particularly the guidance of the Buddha in this context, I think. ... > > But since we are 'pet-peeving' here :) I'll add mine as well: where is > the conversation on any of these sites regarding the practice of > morality in our daily lives? .... S: You may also like to look in 'Useful Posts' for other topics and follow the threads. Examples that quickly come to mind are: 'Killing', 'Drinking Alcohol, Drugs', 'Sexual Misconduct', 'Sila', 'Judging others', 'Livelihood', 'Sotapanna'.....lots more. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/Useful_Posts .... >Could > it be that we are for some reason reluctant to talk about morality > because it's at that point where morality and ethics intersect our > worldy life that the rubber of practice really hits the road of > practical living: ... S: Your comments remind me of another friend, ERIC, who'd use this peertinent expression too. I agree that our lives should be more and more like open books as wisdom develops, even though it's only a sotapanna who will always abstain from breaking the precepts under any circumstances. I think we're all eagerly waiting to discuss any angle on morality and ethics that you'd like to pursue. No reluctance here;-)*. Hope to hear more from you and more about your interest in the Dhamma and this or other topics. Where do you live? Metta, Sarah * Recent comment from Nina which I liked: N: "We should not try to separate mindfulness of dhammas and daily life." ======= 34112 From: Philip Date: Wed Jun 23, 2004 4:56am Subject: decisive support condition? The following is from Buddhaghosa's commentary on the Right View Sutta. (Sammaditthi Sutta) "Among these, greed is itself unwholesome in the sense that it is blameworthy and has painful results; and it is a root of these unwholesome (deeds) beginning with killing living beings, for some in the sense that it is an associated originative cause, for some in the sense that it is a decisive support condition." I have seen these expressions "associated originative cause" and "decisive support condition." I can't get around to Nina's book on conditions quite yet, so in the meantime could someone help me to understand the difference between them? Thanks in advance Metta, Phil 34113 From: icarofranca Date: Wed Jun 23, 2004 5:00am Subject: Re: [dsg] Typos Hi Chris: With full respect to all Arahats, Buddhas, Boddhisattas ,devas, devakis, gandharvas,bhikkhus, bhikkhunis, Acharyas, Siddhas, uppajayas, Samanas,etc, in all sectors and quadrants... HAUHAUAHUAHUAHUAHUAHAUHAUHUAHAU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > "A panda walks into a cafe. He orders a sandwich, eats it, then > draws a gun and fires two shots in the air. > > "Why?" asks the confused waiter, as the panda makes towards the > exit. The panda produces a badly punctuated wildlife manual and > tosses it over his shoulder. > > "I'm a panda," he says, at the door. "Look it up." > > The waiter turns to the relevant entry and, sure enough, finds an > explanation. > > "PANDA. Large black-and-white bear-like mammal, native to China. > Eats, shoots and leaves." ---------------------------------------------------------------------- This Panda certainly never ate Capt. Crunch Oats and cereals...it reminded also an episode of Dudley Do-Right Cartoon, where a bear were putting fire on all Northern canada woods: Dudley discovered tthat the criminal were the own Smokey Bear, symbol of all american wood firewatchers, due to an improvable pun or typo on English language matters!!! Ah, Chris.. I finally managed to win the Australian Scenario of the Reailroad Tycoon!!!! I begun linking on Darwin, Tennant Creek and Alice Springs...thanks to Buddha there were bauxite ores at Alice Springs and Alluminium facilites at Darwin and tennant Creek and I made lots of profits on cargo...after I send my track headlong to barcaldine, Rockampton and finally Brisbane!!!!!!! Simple !!!! Mettaya, Ícaro 34114 From: agriosinski Date: Tue Jun 22, 2004 6:08am Subject: Naming (was Re: Rupas for beginners) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" wrote: [...] > ===== > > > I will replace all this chaos and confusion and that will be it. > > ===== > > Oops, there is no "I" in control to do any replacing. > > ===== Hi Rob, I am a little bit dyslectic. Should be: It (sati -> panna?) will replace this chaos and confusion.. [...] > Because objects are defined in terms of the sense door at which they > arise, they do not exist when the sense door is not active. There has > been debate on DSG as to whether rupa exists independent of the > senses, with Howard taking the phenomenological view that they do not > exist. This is the old, "If a tree falls in a forest but there is > none to hear it, does the sound exist?" question. > > Agrios, I hope that my answer has not confused you. > > Metta, > Rob M :-) Thanks Rob, I am getting a picture here of the whole situation. Seems like this thinking I am so used to is really nothing else but one more sense addiction and leads me only to enforce mirage of self. First time there is understanding of mind as one of the senses. There is strong curiosity of whats outside of it. Just another drag pulling back into sensual plays I guess. Probably its a movement in the wrong direction. Maybe I just sit still. :) metta, Agrios 34115 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Jun 22, 2004 10:33am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism.XIV 83 Hi Larry, op 22-06-2004 01:09 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > > What does it mean when a resultant consciousness is kusala (profitable)? > Does it mean only that the consciousness that caused it was kusala? N: For wholesome resultant we should always add: kusala vipaka, not just kusala. It merely means that it is produced by kusala kamma. There are four jaatis of citta: kusala, akusala, vipaka and kiriya. Kusala vipaka and akusala vipaka are one jati, because they are merely results. L: Does > seeing consciousness see accurately regardless of whether it is kusala > or akusala? N: Again, we have to add vipaka to kusala and akusala. Otherwise people think that they are active kusala and akusala. Seeing accurately: this has to do with the faculty of eyesense, which is rupa produced by kamma. Remember: it can be quick or slow, that is, people's eyesights are different. Due to kamma. L: How does one tell the two apart? Is kusala and akusala only > meaningful in javana? N: Yes. Only javana cittas are kusala or akusala. Seeing that is kusala vipaka or that is akusala vipaka arise and fall away so fast. When we start to think about what was seen, the moments of seeing have fallen away. It is not important to find out, our reactions are more important: is there wise attention or unwise attention to the object? When we think and wonder about vipaka we may be inclined to take our experiences for my vipaka. This happens when we think of situations, events, people, but we should remember that there is no we, only citta, cetasika and rupa. There is not my vipaka. Rebirth-consciousness is the first vipaka in life to be followed by bhavangacittas that are also vipaka. Why do we not die yet? There is kamma condition that causes us to receive different vipakas through the senses. We react with like and dislike but these are different cittas, not us. Nina. 34116 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Jun 23, 2004 10:28am Subject: Perseverance in Dhamma, Ch 6, no 3 Perseverance in Dhamma, Ch 6, no 3 The objects of mindfulness grouped as the four Applications of Mindfulness are of infinite value and a source of inspiration, reminding us of dhamma appearing in daily life. Often we are forgetful of nåma and rúpa, we are absorbed in concepts of people and events. However, all the sections of the ³Satipatthånasutta² can bring us back to nåma and rúpa as they appear one at a time through the six doorways. Here we can see the power of the Buddha's teachings. In the first Application, Mindfulness of the Body, all the aspects of the body that are explained here serve as a means of being non-forgetful of rúpas. Mindfulness of the Body begins with Mindfulness of Breathing. One may wonder whether this does not indicate that it is necessary to develop first samatha with this subject. Those who have accumulations for samatha can develop Mindfulness of Breathing up to the stage of jhåna, but, in order to reach the goal, they must also develop insight when they have emerged from jhåna. They should penetrate with insight the jhåna-factors and the jhånacittas lest they take these for self. The whole ³Satipatthånasutta² deals with insight. Breath is actually rúpa conditioned by citta. We cling to breath, we cannot live without it, and we take it for granted that we are breathing day in day out. When we are breathing, rúpas may appear that are tangible object: hardness, softness, heat, cold, motion and pressure. We are usually forgetful of nåma and rúpa, but the subject of Mindfulness of Breath can bring us back to realities appearing at this very moment. We read in the Commentary to the ³Satipatthånasutta² (Middle Length Sayings I, 10) 1 in which ways one should contemplate ³the Body in the Body². We read: ³The bhikkhu sees, the body in the body, (1) as something impermanent; (2) as something subject to suffering; (3) as something that is soulless; (4) by way of turning away from it and not by way of delighting in it; (5) by freeing himself of passion for it; (6) with thoughts making for cessation and not making for origination; (7) and not by way of laying hold of it, but by way of giving it up.² This refers to the deveopment of the different stages of insight. The three characteristics of impermanence, dukkha and anattå are penetrated and in the course of the development of insight one can become detached from realities. We read, ³with thoughts making for cessation and not making for origination², and this refers to freedom of the cycle of birth and death. Footnote: 1. I am using the translation of the Satipatthånasutta and Commentary by Ven. Soma, with the title: The Way of Mindfulness. B.P.S. Kandy, Sri Lanka. ***** Nina 34117 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Jun 23, 2004 10:28am Subject: Re: [dsg] Dustrags and blessed typo. Hello Philip, Never mind. In the Suttas many similes are used, and what is helpful for one person may not be helpful for another person. This is just a simile. It makes me think of the excellence of the arahats. The Jeta Grove is very peaceful, there were many arahats there who listened to the Buddha. There are excavations of the places where the (a place for the monk) were. We always have Dhamma talks near the kuti of the Buddha. There are many beautiful similes in the suttas. We do not think of paramattha dhammas all day. We poor worldlings should grab anything that can help us. Your typo: oh blessed mistake, well said, well said! If we are sincere, we are at times afraid or have aversion towards the akusala that appears. At first we are afraid, we do not want akusala, and then we see that it is a useful reminder, that it is a worthy object of awareness. We still have it, it is not eradicated, why deny it or ignore it? Panna should go through all such moments also the moments of aversion towards akusala. Nina. op 23-06-2004 02:49 schreef Philip op plnao@j...: > It just seemed to me that the whole simile of the dustrag is > unnecessarily complicated. 34118 From: christine_forsyth Date: Wed Jun 23, 2004 1:16pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Typos Hello Icaro, I'm glad you won the game!! (though I still can't see how you could go from Tennant Creek in the Northern Territory to Barcaldine in Queensland unless you went all the way round the bottom of Australia and up the East Coast.) But, never mind - you won!! Yaasyy! And ..... speaking of Smokey the Bear reminds me that the saga of "Where's Icaro? - the Canadian Mystery' continues. :-) metta, Chris --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "icarofranca" > This Panda certainly never ate Capt. Crunch Oats and cereals...it > reminded also an episode of Dudley Do-Right Cartoon, where a bear > were putting fire on all Northern canada woods: Dudley discovered > tthat the criminal were the own Smokey Bear, symbol of all american > wood firewatchers, due to an improvable pun or typo on English > language matters!!! > > Ah, Chris.. I finally managed to win the Australian Scenario of the > Reailroad Tycoon!!!! > > I begun linking on Darwin, Tennant Creek and Alice > Springs...thanks to Buddha there were bauxite ores at Alice Springs > and Alluminium facilites at Darwin and tennant Creek and I made lots > of profits on cargo...after I send my track headlong to barcaldine, > Rockampton and finally Brisbane!!!!!!! Simple !!!! > > > Mettaya, Ícaro 34119 From: icarofranca Date: Wed Jun 23, 2004 1:58pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism.XIV 83 Dear Larry: > What does it mean when a resultant consciousness is kusala (profitable)? > Does it mean only that the consciousness that caused it was kusala? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- The final words of The Dhammasangani are a statement of the fact that the bhumisu vipakaa are Kusala Dhamma,so you can imagine, at first approach, that its primer cause could be kusala also...but what's about the mean ? (The Fearless leader):What does Pottsylvania have more than any other country? Mean! We have more mean than any other country in Europe! We must export mean. Well... this would be profitable!!! Exporting mean to all consumers ( Mean!!! Mean!!! Mean!!!) can enrich anyone: Boris and Natasha had begun dealing with mean square roots, ale roots and thereafter pure mean were their real source of all profit!!! Just think about logic, for example: We have a meeting of two propositions, the Syllogism , linked by a mean term which desappears at the conclusion. You can get a formal logic reasoning without the mean - The Enthinemme, mentioned by Aristotle at his "Rethorics"- but it's more a trick than a tool for knowlegde. Formally all the mean is necessary!!! The Abhidhamma stipulates that the bhumisu ( possibly Kusala, who knows ?) Vipakaa are at the last end, as true and real expressions of Dhamma...but The role of the mean in all these process in relevant!!! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Does > seeing consciousness see accurately regardless of whether it is kusala > or akusala? How does one tell the two apart? Is kusala and akusala only > meaningful in javana? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Such dichotomy can be solved only by the mean: mean path, mean terms on Syllogism or mean square roots, nevermind. Larry you need MEAN!!! Mettaya, Ícaro > > Larry 34120 From: icarofranca Date: Wed Jun 23, 2004 2:19pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Typos Dear Chris: > I'm glad you won the game!! (though I still can't see how you could > go from Tennant Creek in the Northern Territory to Barcaldine in > Queensland unless you went all the way round the bottom of Australia > and up the East Coast.) But, never mind - you won!! Yaasyy! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Ah! There are other excellent games for PC: my favourite now is the "Lemonade Tycoon"!!! I'll become rich selling fresh juice at Northern Canada!!!HAHAHAHAHAH!!!! But it's autumn in Australia and springtime at the Northern canada...The Cayuga river's banks covered by marigolds and the breeze whispering promises through the pines... --------------------------------------------------------------------- > And ..... speaking of Smokey the Bear reminds me that the saga > of "Where's Icaro? - the Canadian Mystery' continues. :-) --------------------------------------------------------------------- Not a mistery at all!!! I am watching "Dudley Do-Right" episodes on Boomerang TV Channel...the obnoxious, bastard villain Snidely Whiplash (performed by Larry Sabu) will be fooled again by dudley Do-right and the good RCMP Mounties ( Eyes of blue and hearts of True)!!! HAHAHAHAHAAH!!!! Mettaya, ícaro > > > metta, > Chris > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "icarofranca" > > This Panda certainly never ate Capt. Crunch Oats and > cereals...it > > reminded also an episode of Dudley Do-Right Cartoon, where a bear > > were putting fire on all Northern canada woods: Dudley discovered > > tthat the criminal were the own Smokey Bear, symbol of all > american > > wood firewatchers, due to an improvable pun or typo on English > > language matters!!! > > > > Ah, Chris.. I finally managed to win the Australian Scenario of > the > > Reailroad Tycoon!!!! > > > > I begun linking on Darwin, Tennant Creek and Alice > > Springs...thanks to Buddha there were bauxite ores at Alice > Springs > > and Alluminium facilites at Darwin and tennant Creek and I made > lots > > of profits on cargo...after I send my track headlong to > barcaldine, > > Rockampton and finally Brisbane!!!!!!! Simple !!!! > > > > > > Mettaya, Ícaro 34121 From: icarofranca Date: Wed Jun 23, 2004 2:23pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism.XIV 83 Typos: > The Abhidhamma stipulates that the bhumisu ( possibly Kusala, > who knows ?) Vipakaa are at the last end, as true and real > expressions of Dhamma...but The role of the mean in all these >process > in relevant!!! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- It's "Vipakaa are at the last end the true and real expressions of Dhamma...but The role of the mean in all these process is relevant!!!" there it is!!!! Mettaya, Ícaro 34122 From: Date: Wed Jun 23, 2004 3:44pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism.XIV 83 Hi Icaro, Meaning is only this --> = Larry 34123 From: Date: Wed Jun 23, 2004 3:55pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism.XIV 83 Hi Nina, Thanks for clarifying kusala vipaka. I read a little ahead and see that there will be further discussion on this. I know you are working on the rest of the commentary. I would like more info on joy, equanimity, and knowledge. Also is this the place to list all the kusala cetasikas and discuss what is meant by "beautiful"? Larry 34124 From: icarofranca Date: Wed Jun 23, 2004 4:32pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism.XIV 83 > Hi Icaro, > > Meaning is only this --> = ---------------------------------------------------------------------- I would say better => or <=! You see, from Fermat to Bertrand Russell, Mean is a measure between two extremes: the = signal is only a "special" or restrictive case of all mean one can assign at one set. Mean!!! The golden keyword to all good phiolosophy!!!! Larry, exporting Mean will make you rich!!!!!! Mettaya, Ícaro 34125 From: Philip Date: Wed Jun 23, 2004 5:07pm Subject: Transference of merit? Hello all Only time for a quick question today. In the list of 10 meritous deeds, I see "transference of merit." I googled the term but came up with metaphysical-ish topics related to Pure Land Buddhism. What is this "transference of merit" and how might it arise in our daily life? Thanks in advance. Metta, Phil 34126 From: Mr Tzung-Kuen Wen Date: Wed Jun 23, 2004 5:59pm Subject: ¦^ÂСGRe: ¦^ÂСG[dsg] Re: Liberated in bothways(was, ¦^ÂСG?^???G...) Dear jon Thanks a lot for correcting my description of the understanding of Ubhatobhagavimutta given in commentaries. > I mention this because your > definitionof 'an arahant who has attained (any one of ) the > formless attainemnt is > called an ubhatobhagavimutta' may need to be tightened up a > little. > Grateful for any observations you may have from your readings of the > texts. According to the definition of Ubhatobhagavimutta in commentaries, perhaps those ariyas who attain the formless attainments only after their achievement of arahantship could also be called as ¡¥liberated in both ways¡¦ Sv vol. 2 p.104; vol. 3 p.72: Ubhatobhaagavimuttoti dviihi bhaagehi vimutto, aruupasamaapattiyaa ruupakaayato vimutto, maggena naamakaayato vimuttoti. ¡¥Ubhatobhaagavimutto¡¦ is ¡¥one liberated from two parts¡¦, one liberated from both the assembly of body by formless attainments and the assembly of mind by the [consciousness of] Path. In Sv-pt vol. 3 p. 72, three definitions are given: 1. Samaapattiyaa vikkhambhanavimokkhena, maggena samucchedavimokkhena vimuttattaa ubhatobhaagavimutto 2. Naamakaayato, ruupakaayato ca vimuttattaa ubhatobhaagavimutto 3. samaapattiyaa vikhambhanavimokkhena ekavaaram. Vimuttova maggena samucchedavimokkhena ekavaaram vimuttattaa ubhatobhaagavimutto 1. Because one is liberated in the form of both the liberation of ¡¥oppression by [formless] attainments¡¦ and the liberation of ¡¥abolishment by the Path¡¦, he is one liberated in both ways. ¡K 2. Because one is liberated from the assembly of body and mind, he is one liberated in both ways. ¡K 3. Because one is on one occasion liberated in the form of the liberation of oppression by [formless] attainments ,and on another occasion liberated in the form of the liberation of abolishment by the Path, he is one liberated in both ways. Nevertheless, it's true that the commentaries mention clearly only 5 types of Ubhatobhagavimutta. Metta Tzungkuen May you be free from mental and physical suffering May you be peaceful and happy. 34127 From: robmoult Date: Wed Jun 23, 2004 6:07pm Subject: Re: decisive support condition? Hi Phil, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Philip" wrote: > > The following is from Buddhaghosa's commentary on the Right View > Sutta. (Sammaditthi Sutta) > > > "Among these, greed is itself unwholesome in the sense that it is > blameworthy and has painful results; and it is a root of these > unwholesome (deeds) beginning with killing living beings, for some in > the sense that it is an associated originative cause, for some in the > sense that it is a decisive support condition." > > I have seen these expressions "associated originative cause" > and "decisive support condition." I can't get around to Nina's book > on conditions quite yet, so in the meantime could someone help me to > understand the difference between them? Natural Decisive Support Condition (pakatupanissaya) is one of my favourite topics. The best way to understand how this condition functions is to define the conditioned states (the things that get impacted when this condition is operative)and the conditioning states (the things that "trigger" this condition to be operative). For pakatupanissaya, the conditioned state (what gets impacted) is the current mental state (citta + cetasikas). In other words, pakatupanissaya impacts the current mental state. I will give some specific examples later. For pakatupanissaya, the conditioning states (triggers) are: - Strong past mental states (citta + cetasikas) - Strong past rupa - Strong past concepts "Past" can mean during this life and during past lives as well. The things that make something "strong" are: - Happened frequently and repeatedly in the past (A habit of greed impacts my current mental state) - Happened recently (I just saw my kid's messy room and this impacts my current mental state) - A single very strong event (Sumeda the Hermit made a solemn vow to become a future Buddha and this vow impacted his mental states for countless lifetimes) We can contracts between greed that is "rising up" and greed that is "latent". Greed that is "rising up" is present as a cetasika in the current mental state. It arises in all lobha-mula mental states. In lobha- mula mental states, greed is an "associated originative cause". Greed that is "latent" exists as a latent defilement (anusaya). This type of "latent" greed exists all the time (until one becomes an Arahant). Latent greed exists and lies along with the onging mental processes all the time waiting for conditions to be conducive for the latent greed to influence the current mental state. In this way, greed works through natural decisive support condition. Hope that this helps. Metta, Rob M :-) 34128 From: robmoult Date: Wed Jun 23, 2004 6:15pm Subject: Re: Transference of merit? Hi Phil, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Philip" wrote: > > In the list of 10 meritous deeds, I see "transference of merit." > I googled the term but came up with metaphysical-ish topics related > to Pure Land Buddhism. > What is this "transference of merit" and how might it arise in > our daily life? I suggest that rather than googling, you first check the Useful Posts (here are the list of messages on this subject from Useful Posts: 5313, 10722, 23463, 26838, 26923, 26951, 26985, 26943). I could write a blurb on this subject, but it is probably already covered by these posts. Let me know if you need more information. Metta, Rob M :-) PS: If you need more info on Natural Decisive Support Condition (my previous post), you can check through Escribe; I've written about it a few times. 34129 From: Herman Hofman Date: Wed Jun 23, 2004 6:47pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Transference of merit? Hi Rob M, Phil and everyone, I had a quick look at the useful posts you mention, and foresee a can of worms being opened if we proceed. Are we interested in a can of worms at this time :-) ? (Esp with regards to 26943.) No probs if you decide either way. Herman -----Original Message----- From: robmoult [mailto:rob.moult@j...] Sent: Thursday, 24 June 2004 11:16 AM To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Subject: [dsg] Re: Transference of merit? Hi Phil, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Philip" wrote: > > In the list of 10 meritous deeds, I see "transference of merit." > I googled the term but came up with metaphysical-ish topics related > to Pure Land Buddhism. > What is this "transference of merit" and how might it arise in > our daily life? I suggest that rather than googling, you first check the Useful Posts (here are the list of messages on this subject from Useful Posts: 5313, 10722, 23463, 26838, 26923, 26951, 26985, 26943). I could write a blurb on this subject, but it is probably already covered by these posts. Let me know if you need more information. Metta, Rob M :-) PS: If you need more info on Natural Decisive Support Condition (my previous post), you can check through Escribe; I've written about it a few times. 34130 From: Date: Wed Jun 23, 2004 7:00pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism.XIV 83 Hi Icaro, The mean between extremes is empty. Larry 34131 From: robmoult Date: Wed Jun 23, 2004 7:01pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Transference of merit? Hi Herman, I would love to discuss further :-) Metta, Rob M :-) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Herman Hofman" wrote: > Hi Rob M, Phil and everyone, > > I had a quick look at the useful posts you mention, and foresee a can of > worms being opened if we proceed. Are we interested in a can of worms at > this time :-) ? > > (Esp with regards to 26943.) > > No probs if you decide either way. > > Herman > > > -----Original Message----- > From: robmoult [mailto:rob.moult@j...] > Sent: Thursday, 24 June 2004 11:16 AM > To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [dsg] Re: Transference of merit? > > Hi Phil, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Philip" wrote: > > > > In the list of 10 meritous deeds, I see "transference of > merit." > > I googled the term but came up with metaphysical-ish topics related > > to Pure Land Buddhism. > > What is this "transference of merit" and how might it arise in > > our daily life? > > I suggest that rather than googling, you first check the Useful Posts > (here are the list of messages on this subject from Useful Posts: > 5313, 10722, 23463, 26838, 26923, 26951, 26985, 26943). > > I could write a blurb on this subject, but it is probably already > covered by these posts. Let me know if you need more information. > > Metta, > Rob M :-) > > PS: If you need more info on Natural Decisive Support Condition (my > previous post), you can check through Escribe; I've written about it > a few times. > 34132 From: Egbert Date: Wed Jun 23, 2004 7:25pm Subject: Re Transfer of Merit Hi Rob M, I have reposted the last section of your post #26943. I do not see that you have answered the question posed below. It sounds like the transfer of merit requires that there are beings that are real, substantive and persistent. Out of curiousity, can I transfer the opposite of merit as well, and bump beings down a notch or two? If not, why not? I am reminded of "Hail Mary ... " Off to lunch I go Herman > > > I wonder how we can really share merit with someone who is dead? > If anatta is a reality than who or what would we be sharing with??? > > > > Someone who "is dead" now exists in another form; could be a hell- > being, could be human, could be as an animal, could be as a Deva or > could be as a "hungry ghost" (peta). Some devas and a certain type > of peta (mentioned above) can sense our thoughts. If I do something > good and think of dedicating the accrued merit to a departed person, > then if (and only if) that person has been reborn as the certain > type of peta, then the peta will be aware of my intention and > rejoice in my merit (pattanumodana). This is a wholesome state that > can act as a condition for the peta to be reborn in a happier state. > > Note that you still get the good kammic result from the good deed, > even if you do not share the merit. Note also that you still get the > good kammic result from sharing of merit, even if the departed > relative is unable to receive it. > > Metta, > Rob M :-) 34133 From: robmoult Date: Wed Jun 23, 2004 8:02pm Subject: Re: Re Transfer of Merit Hi Herman, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Egbert" wrote: > I have reposted the last section of your post #26943. > > I do not see that you have answered the question posed below. It > sounds like the transfer of merit requires that there are beings > that are real, substantive and persistent. > > Out of curiousity, can I transfer the opposite of merit as well, and > bump beings down a notch or two? If not, why not? > > > > > I wonder how we can really share merit with someone who is > dead? > > If anatta is a reality than who or what would we be sharing > with??? > > > > > > > Someone who "is dead" now exists in another form; could be a hell- > > being, could be human, could be as an animal, could be as a Deva > or > > could be as a "hungry ghost" (peta). Some devas and a certain type > > of peta (mentioned above) can sense our thoughts. If I do > something > > good and think of dedicating the accrued merit to a departed > person, > > then if (and only if) that person has been reborn as the certain > > type of peta, then the peta will be aware of my intention and > > rejoice in my merit (pattanumodana). This is a wholesome state > that > > can act as a condition for the peta to be reborn in a happier > state. > > > > Note that you still get the good kammic result from the good deed, > > even if you do not share the merit. Note also that you still get > the > > good kammic result from sharing of merit, even if the departed > > relative is unable to receive it. ===== As a recap, the questions are, "How we can really share merit with someone who is dead? If anatta is a reality than who or what would we be sharing with?" We share by having positive thoughts in our own mind; this works because certain beings can sense our thoughts, Death only ends the existence of the body. The kammic stream has a new body (except in the arupa-loka realms) but maintains the same kamma and accumulations. Because of these accumulations, the new being still has a kammic affinity to past beings (i.e. relatives) through natural decisive support condition. To give an example, Yasodara was the wife of the Buddha in multiple previous lifetimes. As another example, in many Jataka tales, we come across prior births of Devadatta, Sariputta, Ananda, etc. Herman, I assume that you are married. When you met your wife, did you not sense that there was something different about her (i.e. your initial natural reaction to her was different from other people's initial reaction to her and different from your initial reaction to other women). This "love at first sight" is kammic affinity at work. I go into this discussion to show that beings carry with them kammic affinity through rebirth. If a being is reborn in a non-human form (deva, peta, etc.), then they still have this kammic affinity and will continue to associate themselves with people & places that they knew before. This is why petas who used to be your relatives tend to continue to hang around you and are ready to read your mental state when you direct your thoughts to them. The concept of sensing mental states can be illustrated from our own experience. When you see a photo of the Dali Lama, can you not sense the mental states of compassion? When your wife is angry with you, can you not sense it without the need for words? It is therefore not unreasonable that petas can sense your mental state (this is not the same as reading your thoughts) and can benefit from it. I suspect that petas are also able to sense unwholesome mental states, but this does not "send them down" as their existence is already quite miserable. The opportunity for them to sense your positive mental state is one of the few positive experiences available to these petas and a positive experience provides an opportunity for positive rebirth. Does this answer? Metta, Rob M :-) 34134 From: Bill Saint-Onge Date: Wed Jun 23, 2004 7:43pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re Transfer of Merit Hi Rob M, Regarding your comments below related to sharing of merit, etc., they are interesting. May I ask what tradition this is from, and the basis in the suttas for it? Respectfully, Bill > > I wonder how we can really share merit with someone who is dead? > If anatta is a reality than who or what would we be sharing with??? > > > > Someone who "is dead" now exists in another form; could be a hell- > being, could be human, could be as an animal, could be as a Deva or > could be as a "hungry ghost" (peta). Some devas and a certain type > of peta (mentioned above) can sense our thoughts. If I do something > good and think of dedicating the accrued merit to a departed person, > then if (and only if) that person has been reborn as the certain > type of peta, then the peta will be aware of my intention and > rejoice in my merit (pattanumodana). This is a wholesome state that > can act as a condition for the peta to be reborn in a happier state. > > Note that you still get the good kammic result from the good deed, > even if you do not share the merit. Note also that you still get the > good kammic result from sharing of merit, even if the departed > relative is unable to receive it. > > Metta, > Rob M :-) 34135 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Jun 23, 2004 9:12pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Complication (was Re: Dustrags) Dear Sarah, lovely reminders about conceit while you were on the beach, so human. I also liked the sutta quotes. Do you know, in the Abh. Human types, puggala pa~n~natti, we also find similer texts about people not staying angry for long. Do you have it? If not I shall try giving you a flavour of it. Nina. op 23-06-2004 10:05 schreef sarah abbott op sarahdhhk@y...: .... > S: I don't read these examples (eg dustrag metaphor) as being an > encouragement to think conceptually or complicate' 34136 From: Herman Hofman Date: Wed Jun 23, 2004 9:42pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Re Transfer of Merit Hi Rob, I find this interesting, but also very speculative. It seems, then, that there is a foundation for Catholics to pray to Mary and the saints to intercede for the souls of the dead? As to whether your reply answered the question, I think it is fair to say that the can of worms is just starting to open :-) Surely we also share negative thoughts? I'll wait to see what your answer to Bill is before I take it any further. Thanks Herman ============================================== As a recap, the questions are, "How we can really share merit with someone who is dead? If anatta is a reality than who or what would we be sharing with?" We share by having positive thoughts in our own mind; this works because certain beings can sense our thoughts, Death only ends the existence of the body. The kammic stream has a new body (except in the arupa-loka realms) but maintains the same kamma and accumulations. Because of these accumulations, the new being still has a kammic affinity to past beings (i.e. relatives) through natural decisive support condition. To give an example, Yasodara was the wife of the Buddha in multiple previous lifetimes. As another example, in many Jataka tales, we come across prior births of Devadatta, Sariputta, Ananda, etc. Herman, I assume that you are married. When you met your wife, did you not sense that there was something different about her (i.e. your initial natural reaction to her was different from other people's initial reaction to her and different from your initial reaction to other women). This "love at first sight" is kammic affinity at work. I go into this discussion to show that beings carry with them kammic affinity through rebirth. If a being is reborn in a non-human form (deva, peta, etc.), then they still have this kammic affinity and will continue to associate themselves with people & places that they knew before. This is why petas who used to be your relatives tend to continue to hang around you and are ready to read your mental state when you direct your thoughts to them. The concept of sensing mental states can be illustrated from our own experience. When you see a photo of the Dali Lama, can you not sense the mental states of compassion? When your wife is angry with you, can you not sense it without the need for words? It is therefore not unreasonable that petas can sense your mental state (this is not the same as reading your thoughts) and can benefit from it. I suspect that petas are also able to sense unwholesome mental states, but this does not "send them down" as their existence is already quite miserable. The opportunity for them to sense your positive mental state is one of the few positive experiences available to these petas and a positive experience provides an opportunity for positive rebirth. Does this answer? Metta, Rob M :-) 34137 From: robmoult Date: Wed Jun 23, 2004 10:31pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re Transfer of Merit Hi Bill, They are from the Theravada tradition. One can find many Sutta references ("petas" are often translated as "shades" or "ghosts") but the details (especially of transfer of merit) can be found in the Petavatthu, part of the Khuddaka Nikaya of the Suttanta Pitaka. Some Sutta references to ghosts include DN32.5, Mn 12.36, Mn 12.39, Mn 97.30, Mn130.2, An IV.123, An VI.39 among others. One will also find a section on the benefits of giving to petas in the Milinda panha. Metta, Rob M :-) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Bill Saint-Onge > Regarding your comments below related to sharing of merit, etc., they are interesting. May I ask what tradition this is from, and the basis in the suttas for it? > > > I wonder how we can really share merit with someone who is > dead? > > If anatta is a reality than who or what would we be sharing > with??? > > > > > > > Someone who "is dead" now exists in another form; could be a hell- > > being, could be human, could be as an animal, could be as a Deva > or > > could be as a "hungry ghost" (peta). Some devas and a certain type > > of peta (mentioned above) can sense our thoughts. If I do > something > > good and think of dedicating the accrued merit to a departed > person, > > then if (and only if) that person has been reborn as the certain > > type of peta, then the peta will be aware of my intention and > > rejoice in my merit (pattanumodana). This is a wholesome state > that > > can act as a condition for the peta to be reborn in a happier > state. > > > > Note that you still get the good kammic result from the good deed, > > even if you do not share the merit. Note also that you still get > the > > good kammic result from sharing of merit, even if the departed > > relative is unable to receive it. > > > > Metta, > > Rob M :-) 34138 From: robmoult Date: Wed Jun 23, 2004 10:44pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Re Transfer of Merit Hi Herman, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Herman Hofman" wrote: > I find this interesting, but also very speculative. ===== I agree on both points. ===== > It seems, then, that > there is a foundation for Catholics to pray to Mary and the saints to > intercede for the souls of the dead? ===== Interesting parallel. However, in this case, we are the ones doing the interceding and we are not saints. In addition, we are not doing so because we are requested to do so, but rather that we are motivated ourselves to perform this practice. Finally, the recipients are not "dead", they are spending time as ghosts before their next rebirth. ===== > Surely we also share negative thoughts? ===== I included the following below to indicate that I believe that petas can sense our negative thoughts, but that since they have such a miserable existence, it doesn't impact them much... > I suspect that petas are also able to sense unwholesome mental > states, but this does not "send them down" as their existence is > already quite miserable. The opportunity for them to sense your > positive mental state is one of the few positive experiences > available to these petas and a positive experience provides an > opportunity for positive rebirth. Metta, Rob M :-) 34139 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Jun 23, 2004 11:26pm Subject: The Jhaanas and the Lay Disciple According to the Paali Suttas (8) The Jhaanas and the Lay Disciple According to the Paali Suttas Ven. Bhikkhu Bodhi Jhaana and the Attainment of Stream-entry (6) From the omission of a class of disciples training for stream-entry who also enjoy the experience of the formless meditations, one might suppose that disciples below the level of stream-entry cannot gain access to the formless attainments. This supposition is not tenable, however, for the texts show that many of tthe ascetics and contemplatives in the Buddha's day (including his two teachers before his enlightenment) were familiar with the jhaanas and formless attainments. Since these attainments are not dependent on the insight made uniquely available through the Buddha's teaching, the omission of such a class of jhaana-attainers among those on the way to stream-entry must be explained in some other way than by the supposition that such a class does not exist. I would propose that while disciples prior to stream-entry may or may not possess the formless attainments, skill in this area does not determine a distinct type because powerful concentration is not a governing factor in the attainment of stream-entry. The way to stream-entry certainly requires a degree of concentration sufficient for the "eye of the Dhamma" to arise, but the actual movement from the stage of a worldling to that of a path-attainer is driven by either strong conviction or a probing spirit of inquiry, which respectively determine whether the aspirant is to become a faith-follower or a Dhamma-follower. Once, however, the path has been gained, then one's degree of accomplishment in concentration determines one's future mode of progress. If one gains the formless attainments one takes the route of the body-witness, culminating in release as a both-ways-liberated arahant. If one does not attain them, one takes the route of the view-attainer or faith-liberated trainee, culminating in release as a wisdom-liberated arahant. Since these distinctions relate only to the formless attainments and make no mention of the jhaanas, it is reasonable to suppose that types (ii), (iv-v), and (vi-vii) may have possession of the form-sphere jhaanas. But by making faith and wisdom the key factors in gaining the initial access to the path, this scheme leaves open the possibility that some stream-enterers, and perhaps those at still higher levels, may not have gained these jhaanas at all. 34140 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Jun 24, 2004 0:12am Subject: Re: [dsg] Buddhaghosa Dear Nina, --- nina van gorkom wrote: > Dear Sarah, > This is very interesting. How old is this Co, how did you get it. Is it > in > Burmese and then translated into English? > I paid respect at that place and will again in Oct. ... S: Buddhaghosuppatti, ed and transl by James Gray, PTS (2001) A very slim volume but also includes the Pali. The translator suggests the 13th century. Sinhalese author, Mahamangala, but not known in Ceylon, so possibly written in Pagan. He may have died before bringing it to Ceylon. In ch7 there is the well-known description of the burning of the Sinhalese texts 'written by Mahinda' and 'equal in height to seven elephants of middle size'. Mahamangala says he is writing 'yathabhutam' (according to reality). It may just be referrring to the particular set Buddhaghosa had been using prior to his departure for India. A long intro - I haven't read it all. Metta, Sarah ===== 34141 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Jun 24, 2004 1:09am Subject: Re: ???Re: [dsg] oral tradition Dear Tzung Kuen & Nina, --- nina van gorkom wrote: > N: The Saravastivada version is not Theravada. But I find it very > complicated to go into these differerences with other schools which are > not > Theravada. .... S: Tzung Kuen, do you have access to the Katthavatthu and commentary? In the Katthavatthu (Points of Controversy), there are some very interesting discussions/debates which highlight some of the views held by the Saravastivadans (here, the Pali-'Sabbatthivaadins') and other 'sects' which are naturally refuted. I think they lead to implications about reasons for variations in Abhidhamma texts in particular. Briefly: 1:2 Certain sects inc. Sabbatthivaadins 'incline to the belief that an Arahant can fall away', based on suttas such as ANi:96 1:6 Sabbatthivaadins hold the opinion that 'all phenomena, past, present, future [once they arise among the aggregate constituents of personal life and experience] persist in that state, and that therefore all go on existing.] Sarvaasthivaadins - lit. 'everything-exists-believers'. This is based on their interpretation of sutta passages such as 'whatever is material quality, past, present, future'. 11:9 Sects inc. Sabbatthivaadins have the opinion that 'in realizing the Four Paths, the corruptions were put away by so many slices as each of the Four Truths was intuited'. In other words, reading suttas such as Sn, v962 : 'Little by little, one by one, as pass The moments, gradually let the wise' etc They take these to suggest attainment in segments. X1:6 The Sabbatthivaadins and Uttaraapathakas hold that 'the continuity of consciousness (citta-santati) is concentration of mind (samaadhi).They don't accept that concentration is 'confined to a momentary conscious unit'. I think there are also implications in this section for your discussion with Swee Boon on the 'attainment of cessation', but I haven't considered it enough to add more. I'd be very interested in your comments, though I'm going to have to wind-down here as we're going away next week and lots to do before that. .... N: > Before I went into the Susima sutta and we had lots of debates, but now > I > get too busy with my texts and just want to leave it. ... S: Just look under Susima sutta and Sukkha vipassaka for Nina's and other letters. .... N: > As I said to Sarah, I find the Puggala Pa~n~natti of the Abhidhamma > quite > clear on sukkha vipassaka. Also the Commentaries, it is often mentioned. > And > in the Visuddhimagga. .... S: As you say, I don't find any conflicts in these texts. Usually, all other ideas, such as those above (esp the one in 1:6, are based, as we read in the Brahmajala Sutta, on an idea of self or permanence creeping in. .... N:> T.Kuen: I like your translation of Vism-mht very much, but I only got > two > posts about > > them one or two days ago. Where to get the old posts on Vism-mht ? ... S: Many can be found in U.P., but under different headings such as 'heart-base' or 'space'. Most the early ones are there under 'Visuddhimagga'. Also you can find the Pali and Pali-English in the files. To read Nina's translations on the Tiika in order, you'd need to start in the archives at link below for Larry's first post, scroll down to her posts and open ones which have the Vism, Tiika headings, following the numbers. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/23597 It started off with Jim and others contributing and only developed a little later into a format of Larry giving the extract and then Nina adding the Tiika and comments. You'll see. (Usually, I'd be suggesting you just key 'Visuddhimagga' in on escribe and following messages you're interested in from this date (24th July 03) as it's much easier to scroll down. Unfortunately it's still in break-down mode, but it may be helpful later). Metta, Sarah ======== 34142 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Jun 24, 2004 1:33am Subject: Letter from Ven Bodhi Bhikkhu Bodhi wrote: Dear Sarah, Thanks for the interesting exchange of letter between Lance Cousins and Jim Anderson. I also read your letter on the DSG. True, we do owe a lot to the commentaries for our knowledge of early Buddhism, but to obtain an accurate understanding of early Buddhist history, we can't rest with what we learn from them. We have to put aside our faith in any particular tradition of Buddhism, Theravada or whatever, even suspend our faith in Buddhism itself, and try to determine, from various sources, with a high degree of probability as we can, what took place. In applying this approach, Western scholars can teach us much that we could never learn from the traditional commentaries. All these sources indicate, with hardly a trace of room for doubt, that the Abhidharma Pitakas that arose in the different Buddhist schools (and several schools had Abhidharma Pitakas, quite different from each other) were products of a long period of gradual development, the basic lines of which we can trace through comparative study of texts across different Buddhist traditions. This doesn't mean that the Abhidhamma should be rejected. I think it is an extremist attitude to pose the choice: either the Abhidhamma is literal Word of the Buddha, in which case it is invaluable, or later development, in which case it should be rejected. A wiser approach, more consonant with the spirit of Buddhism itself, is to see later generations as trying to explicate or "unfold" the implications of the original teachings and to explore their applications to different domains of understanding. The Abhidhamma was one way this took place against the background of contemporary developments in Indian thought. With metta, Bhikkhu Bodhi ***** S:> I did write another letter following your comments and a few others on DSG with regard to Prof Watanabe's points and your recent letters to me and trust there is nothing disrespectful in it: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/33875 I shared the relevant extracts from your letters and I'm also in the process of sharing the article which you kindly sent us and Tzung-kuen Wen in daily installments on DSG. There is a lot of interest in it. Before posting the ariticle, I spent a little time, converted some confusing symbols appearing which you referred to.< 34143 From: christine_forsyth Date: Thu Jun 24, 2004 1:40am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re Transfer of Merit Hello RobM, Herman, Bill, and all, Ven. Sayadaw U. Sumana wrote about Sharing of Merits: "Today, I would like to talk about sharing of merits. "Our ancestors hope for five things from their sons and daughters". The Buddha said so in the Pali text of the Anguttara Nikaya. What are the five? 1. Their sons and daughters will help them in every aspect. 2. They will carry out what must be done on behalf of their elders. 3. They will preserve the traditions practiced by their elders. 4. They will protect the inheritances left to them by their elders. 5. They will make offerings to the petas after their elders pass away. (from the book "Dhammaratana") " http://www.geocities.com/ekchew.geo/SharingofMerits.htm#One --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" wrote: > Hi Bill, > > They are from the Theravada tradition. One can find many Sutta > references ("petas" are often translated as "shades" or "ghosts") but > the details (especially of transfer of merit) can be found in the > Petavatthu, part of the Khuddaka Nikaya of the Suttanta Pitaka. Some > Sutta references to ghosts include DN32.5, Mn 12.36, Mn 12.39, Mn > 97.30, Mn130.2, An IV.123, An VI.39 among others. > > One will also find a section on the benefits of giving to petas in > the Milinda panha. > > Metta, > Rob M :-) > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Bill Saint-Onge > Regarding > your comments below related to sharing of merit, etc., they are > interesting. May I ask what tradition this is from, and the basis in > the suttas for it? > > > > I wonder how we can really share merit with someone who is > > dead? > > > If anatta is a reality than who or what would we be sharing > > with??? > > > > > > > > > > Someone who "is dead" now exists in another form; could be a hell- > > > being, could be human, could be as an animal, could be as a Deva > > or > > > could be as a "hungry ghost" (peta). Some devas and a certain > type > > > of peta (mentioned above) can sense our thoughts. If I do > > something > > > good and think of dedicating the accrued merit to a departed > > person, > > > then if (and only if) that person has been reborn as the certain > > > type of peta, then the peta will be aware of my intention and > > > rejoice in my merit (pattanumodana). This is a wholesome state > > that > > > can act as a condition for the peta to be reborn in a happier > > state. > > > > > > Note that you still get the good kammic result from the good > deed, > > > even if you do not share the merit. Note also that you still get > > the > > > good kammic result from sharing of merit, even if the departed > > > relative is unable to receive it. > > > > > > Metta, > > > Rob M :-) 34144 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Jun 24, 2004 1:41am Subject: Re: [dsg] Perseverance in Dhamma, Ch 6, no 2 Dear Nina, --- nina van gorkom wrote: > The 'Discourse on the Analysis of the Sixfold Sense-field' (Middle > Length > Sayings III, no 137) explains that the Buddha is untroubled, mindful > and > clearly conscious when disciples who listen to the Dhamma turn away, > when > some of them pay attention but others do not, or when they pay attention > to > his words. > It is said that disciples who are like the Tathågata in this way are > 'fit to > instruct a group', thus, fit to explain the Dhamma to others. ..... S: I just looked at the passage in the sutta. Great reminders. Reminds me of K.Sujin's example too. Must dash - washing machine repair man at the door! Metta, Sarah ===== > **** 34145 From: Herman Hofman Date: Thu Jun 24, 2004 3:43am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Re Transfer of Merit Hi Rob M, Just before I launch into the next phase of the discussion, could I ask you for your help? At which level of spiritual development is there no more rebirth? And is that the same as parinibbana? Thanks in advance Herman 34146 From: icarofranca Date: Thu Jun 24, 2004 4:50am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism.XIV 83 Hi Larry! > The mean between extremes is empty. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Really ? When Boris and Natasha begun at Woosamotta University, they started dealing with Mean square Roots, and later that so called "Pure mean"! You see, when you get a sequence of even numbers, with an even quantity of members, the mean between extremes is an empty set, but not devoid of significance!!! And when you get a sequence of odd numbers, with an odd quantity of members, the Mean is never empty!!! So you can see how remarlable is Mean!!!! And the own Buddha had mean in great account!!! All Tipitaka Suttas have got mean between the first and last stanzas!!! Mean is very necessary to us all!!!!!! I see unto you, Larry: selling mean will make you a millionaire, floating at golden ponds of Perrier!!! Mean!!! Praised by Buddha and all great Illuminatii of every Woorld!!! Larry, you wants Mean!!!!!! Mettaya, Ícaro 34147 From: icarofranca Date: Thu Jun 24, 2004 4:58am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism.XIV 83 Typo: > members, the Mean is never empty!!! So you can see how remarlable >is > Mean!!!! --------------------------------------------------------------------- "Remarlable" can even be a kind of marmalade, but only Mean is so remarkable!!!!!!! Mettaya, Ícaro > > And the own Buddha had mean in great account!!! All Tipitaka Suttas > have got mean between the first and last stanzas!!! Mean is very > necessary to us all!!!!!! I see unto you, Larry: selling mean will > make you a millionaire, floating at golden ponds of Perrier!!! > > Mean!!! Praised by Buddha and all great Illuminatii of every > Woorld!!! > > Larry, you wants Mean!!!!!! > > Mettaya, Ícaro 34148 From: icarofranca Date: Thu Jun 24, 2004 5:04am Subject: [dsg] Re: Re Transfer of Merit Dear Herman: Respectfully butting in: > At which level of spiritual development is there no more rebirth? >And is > that the same as parinibbana? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- - Technically speaking, after the adept passing through the stream - Sotapanni, Sakadagami and Anagami stages of spiritual existence - rebirth ends and one reaches the stage of Arahat. Siddartha Gautama only reached up Parinibbana after his death. --------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Thanks in advance --------------------------------------------------------------------- ... Mettaya, Ícaro 34149 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Jun 24, 2004 10:38am Subject: Perseverance in Dhmma, Ch 6, no 4 Perseverance in Dhmma, Ch 6, no 4 We read in the ³Satipatthånasutta² about the postures of going, standing, sitting and lying down, and about clear comprehension in all one's actions. We read: ³And further, o bhikkhus, when he is going, a bhikkhu understands: ŒI am going¹...². The same is said of the other postures. The Commentary explains: ³Who goes? No living being or person whatsoever. Whose going is it? Not the going of any living being or person. On account of what does the going take place? On account of the diffusion of the process of oscillation born of mental activity...² Thus, being aware of the postures is not just knowing what one is doing, but we should realize that there are only elements, nåma and rúpa, arising because of conditions. As we read, the process of oscillation or motion born of mental activity occurs. When mindfulness of the body is applied, it does not mean that there is no awareness of nåma. Both nåma and rúpa occur all the time and their difference should be discerned by paññå. All the sections in the Satipatthånasutta give us examples of different situations in life that can remind us of being aware of the dhamma appearing through one of the six doors. We read in the section on clear comprehension, sati-sampajañña, that the monk had to practise clear comprehension in all his actions, such as walking, bending, stretching, wearing robes and bowl, eating, chewing, speaking and being silent. The Commentary explains that there is no self who eats. The process of digestion goes on because of conditions. We read: ³There is no one who, having put up an oven and lit a fire, is cooking each lump standing there. By only the process of caloricity the lump of food matures. There is no one who expels each digested lump with a stick or pole. Just the process of oscillation or motion expels the digested food.² In the section on the Repulsiveness of the Body we read about hair of the head, hair of the body, nails, teeth, skin and so on. This is again a reminder of dhamma in daily life. We can notice these parts of the body time and again, and they can remind us that what we take for the body are only elements that are impermanent and not self. In the same way the section on the Elements can bring us back to reality when we are distracted. What we take for ³our important body² are only elements devoid of self. The cemetery contemplations are recollections of death. We read that when the bhikkhu sees a corpse he thinks of his own body thus: ³Verily this body of mine, too, is of the same nature as that body, is going to be like that body, and has not got past the condition of becoming like that body.² **** Nina 34150 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Jun 24, 2004 10:38am Subject: Intro Vis. 83 Intro Vis. 83 There are many factors necessary as conditions for the arising of the first type of kusala citta of the sense-sphere: accompanied by wisdom associated with pleasant feeling and unprompted. A desirable object is one of the conditions for citta to be accompanied by pleasant feeling. It is explained that a desirable object is not necessarily a condition for citta with attachment. Citta can rejoice in the object with wise attention. We read in the (Expositor I, p. 100): When there is strong confidence in the Triple Gem and the development of kusala, including right understanding, there are conditions for kusala citta with pa~n~naa that is accompanied by pleasant feeling and enthusiasm (piiti). The Tiika reminds us that pleasant feeling accompanies the citta until it dissolves. Feeling does not last, it falls away immediately, there is no self who can cause feeling to be pleasant. We read in the (Expositor p. 100): As to the word 'bent on' , the Pali has: pari.naamita, bend to, change into. There can be a change from akusala to kusala if one understands the right conditions to be cultivated. An abundance of right reflection is also a condition for kusala. We need good friends who give us stimulating talks. We then read that the Tiika refers to the four wheels that are favorable conditions for the arising of kusala citta with right understanding. These four wheels are: living in a suitable place, association with noble persons, right aspiration, and meritorious deeds formerly done. (See AN IV, 4, 1, The Wheel). Further on the Tiika mentions as conditions for the citta to be accompanied by wisdom: past kamma, maturity of the faculties, that is to say: the faculties of confidence, energy, mindfulness, concentration and wisdom which have to be developed. Another factor is one¹s age. The age from forty to fifty is the most favorable age to develop wisdom according to the Visuddhimagga. Kusala citta accompanied by wisdom needs many conditions, some stemming from the past and others that are of the present. The Dhammasanga.nii, when dealing with the first type of kusala citta, states: and then it enumerates the many cetasikas that assist the citta. The ³Expositor² (p. 76 etc.) explains numerous meanings of samaya, such as: time or occasion, concurrence of causes, moment. It explains that the should be classed as the one moment in the sense of occasion, they form the occasion for the production of merit. It states: It shows the extreme shortness of the time in the occurrence of kusala citta and it points out . It stresses that advice has been given that we should have strenuousness and earnestness in pa.tivedha, realization of the truth, since this is very difficult: Samaya can also mean group, and this shows the simultaneous occurrence of many dhammas. The kusala citta is accompanied by many cetasikas, each performing their own function. By samaya is shown the concurrence of conditions, the mutual contribution towards the production of a common result. The Expositor explains with regard to samaya as condition: When we learn about all the different factors that are necessary conditions for the arising of one moment of kusala citta with paññaa we are reminded that kusala citta does not belong to us and that it falls away immediately. Kusala citta is very rare and even more so kusala citta with paññaa. We have accumulated a great amount of akusala and thus there are conditions for its arising very often. This is a pungent reminder to develop all kinds of kusala for which there is an opportunity. **** Nina. 34151 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Jun 24, 2004 10:38am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism. 83, Larry, Icaro Hi Larry and Icaro, op 24-06-2004 00:55 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: . I would like more > info on joy, equanimity, and knowledge. N: You will get the whole works tomorrow. L: Also is this the place to list > all the kusala cetasikas and discuss what is meant by "beautiful"? N: We shall come to those later on. The word sobhana means shining, splendid or beautiful. We refer to sobhana cetasikas since these are not only of the jaati that is kusala, but also of the jaatis that are vipaka and kiriya. All details will come in due time in the Visuddhimagga. The Tiika 83 is excellent and I did not like to shorten it, it is important. For my Pali study I selected the Wheel sutta and I shall post it here. It matches with this Tiika. Icaro: I use the Dhammasangani Pali in hard copy. The first sentence: Yasmi.m samaye kaamaavacaara kusala.m citta.m... You may like the elaboration on samaye in my Intro. It is so deep in meaning and it has many aspects. It reminds me not to dilly dally, kusala citta with pañña is so rare. Just like a flash of lightning. We do not know how much longer we shall live, we may die tomorrow. Nina. P.S. Larry, I will be away four days next week from June 30- July 3. I cannot guarantee that I finish Tiika Vis 84 within one week, but I shall take it with me. They are rather long but important. Really worth while. 34152 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Jun 24, 2004 10:38am Subject: Wheel sutta Hi Larry and friends, Here is the sutta that matches so well our Tiika Vis. 83 study. With the Co, The Wheel Sutta. Cattaarimaani bhikkhave, cakkaani, there are four wheels, monks, yehi samannaagataana.m devamanussaana.m catucakka.m vattati, and for devas and men who possess these, fourfold prosperity is rolling on. yehi samannaagataa devamanussaa The devas and men who are possessed of these nacirasseva mahantatta.m vepullatta.m paapu.nanti bhogesu. reach in no long time greatness and abundance in prosperity. Katamaani cattaari? Which are the four? Patiruupadesavaaso, sappurisa avassayo Living in a suitable place, association with noble persons, attasammaapa.nidhi, pubbe ca katapu~n~nataa- right aspiration, and meritorious deeds formerly done. imaani kho, bhikkhave, cattaari cakkaani, These are truly, monks, the four wheels, yehi samannaagataana.m devamanussaana.m catucakka.m vattati, and the devas and men who are possessed of these yehi samannaagataa devamanussaa nacirasseva mahantatta.m vepullatta.m paapu.nanti bhogesuu>ti. reach in no long time greatness and abundance in prosperity. Verse: Patiruupe vase dese, If one lives in a suitable place ariyamitta karo siyaa; and has noble friendship; sammaapa.nidhi sampanno, and has right aspiration pubbe pu~n~nakato naro; and, as a hero, has formerly done meritorious deeds; dha~n~na.m dhana.m yaso kitti, grain, wealth, honour, fame, sukha~nceta.m adhivattatii>ti. and all this happiness will be the result for him. **** Commentary: as to association with noble persons, the Co remarks: drawing near and sitting close to the Buddha etc. N: this means: listening to noble persons. As to right aspiration: someone may have many activities and has no confidence in kusala, but then he may have abandoned this lack of confidence and applied himself to all good qualities such as confidence. As to meritorious deeds formerly done, this means that someone has accumulated kusala kamma. This is the subject of this sutta: because of kusala kamma performed by the citta that is accompanied by paññaa is the condiiton for someone to enter a suitable country, to meet a noble person and thus he will have right aspiration. As to sukha~nceta.m adhivattatii: that happiness will be abundant and overwhelming for him. 34153 From: icarofranca Date: Thu Jun 24, 2004 0:04pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism. 83, Larry, Icaro Hi, Nina > Icaro: I use the Dhammasangani Pali in hard copy. The first >sentence: > Yasmi.m samaye kaamaavacaara kusala.m citta.m... You may like the > elaboration on samaye in my Intro. It is so deep in meaning and it >has many > aspects. It reminds me not to dilly dally, kusala citta with pañña >is so > rare. Just like a flash of lightning. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Yes!!! well remembered, Nina!!! The word or term "equality" fits better to samaye than mean ( Larry, since you are so fond of mean, you must pay attention on these ideas!). I managed to put all my poor Dhammasangani PTS trasnlation inside my Palm Top, so it can be always my companion! and about kaamaavacaara Kusala Citta, I remmembered a question you made me about it some posts ago... I misplaced the passage I should quote to you! I stated at that occasion that kaamavaacara has only Kirya or unwholesome cetasikas aspects. later on I rechecked in my copy and... indeed! there are Kaamavaacara Kusala Cittaa, i.e., kaamavaacara that aren't linked only with unwholesome aspects of life!!! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- We do not know how much >longer we > shall live, we may die tomorrow. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- No! No! No!!! Amithaba can wait!!!! And tomorrow, 25 June... Walpurgis Night!!!! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Nina. > P.S. Larry, I will be away four days next week from June 30- July 3. I > cannot guarantee that I finish Tiika Vis 84 within one week, but I shall > take it with me. They are rather long but important. Really worth while. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- São João... São João... acende a fogueira Em meu coração! Mettaya, Ícaro 34154 From: robmoult Date: Thu Jun 24, 2004 3:00pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Re Transfer of Merit Hi Herman, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Herman Hofman" wrote: > At which level of spiritual development is there no more rebirth? And is > that the same as parinibbana? Only Arahants and Buddhas are free from rebirth. Only they have uprooted craving for continued existence. According to Nyanatiloka's Buddhist Dictionary, Parinibbana, literally "full Nibbana", is a synonym for Nibbana and therefore does not refer exclusively to the extinction of the five aggregates at the death of the Buddha. I feel that the usage of of the term parinibbana to describe the dissolution of the five aggregates of the Buddha gives the wrong impression that Nibbana is a place where one goes after death, similar to a Christian heaven. In reality Nibbana is an object of a mental state. Metta, Rob M :-) PS: To anticipate where this discussion on the 31 planes is going, let me answer the question, "Do you believe in these 31 planes?". My answer is, "I don't disbelieve. The Buddha discussed these planes of existence in the Suttas many times. This is sufficient for me to think that it might be true. I have no direct experience, nor does it make logical sense to me (from my limited experience) that they must exist as described. In summary, I don't disbelieve." 34155 From: Date: Thu Jun 24, 2004 4:10pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism. 83, Larry, Icaro Hi Icaro, Samaya is a confluence, a coming together. Not quite the same as "this is that". "This is that" is just a different perspective of the same thing. They are both empty, void, not self. The mean of death and deathless is birth. Happy Walpurgis Night. Larry 34156 From: Date: Thu Jun 24, 2004 4:17pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism. 83, Larry, Icaro Nina: " I cannot guarantee that I finish Tiika Vis 84 within one week, but I shall take it with me." Hi Nina, No rush. Icaro and I shall meditate until you are ready. Larry 34157 From: Philip Date: Thu Jun 24, 2004 4:41pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Re Transfer of Merit Hello all Thank you for the feedback on my question about this topic. Rob: > PS: To anticipate where this discussion on the 31 planes is going, > let me answer the question, "Do you believe in these 31 planes?". My > answer is, "I don't disbelieve. The Buddha discussed these planes of > existence in the Suttas many times. This is sufficient for me to > think that it might be true. I have no direct experience, nor does it > make logical sense to me (from my limited experience) that they must > exist as described. In summary, I don't disbelieve." Ph: I like this "I don't disbelieve." Last night as I thought about these petas, and planes of existence, and other aspects of Dhamma that my logical mind rejects at first glance, I thought of the expression "willing suspension of disbelief", which as we know is used to describe a movie-goer or novel-reader's willingness to go along with a fantastic story. Because of the undeniable life-changing easily-confirmable veracity of the Buddha' teaching of the Four Noble Truths, and other clear teachings that follow from there, I am willing to not disbelieve. Then I realized that "willing" suggests a self that is eager to find consolation in theory and therefore decides to not disbelieve, so I changed it to "wholesome suspension of disbelief." This morning, waking beet-red and in pain from stupdily spending too much time in the hot midday sun yesterday (I came across some mad- dogs and Englishmen as well) which happened because I had craved the sun and wanted to have a healthy-looking tan during the rainy season, I had good reason to reflect on the Noble Truths and feel very grateful yet again for the confirmability of the Buddha's teaching. I think we can develop a "nevermind" attitude towards the aspects we don't respond to, and that developing this attitude might be wholesome. Metta, Phil 34158 From: robmoult Date: Thu Jun 24, 2004 7:57pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Re Transfer of Merit Hi Phil, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Philip" wrote: > Ph: I like this "I don't disbelieve." ===== I am relieved. I was worried that, as an English teacher, you would make me write out fifty times, "I shall not use double negatives." :-) Metta, Rob M :-) 34159 From: Bill Saint-Onge Date: Thu Jun 24, 2004 8:50pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Re Transfer of Merit Hello, Like Philip, I also take a 'hands off' attitude towards the heavy doses of petas etc in the Khuddaka Nikaya. "Hands off" may be a poor choice of words--better is that I feel an incredible sense of freedom to not have to ask myself questions about this material, in the same way I feel freedom by following the advice of the Buddha to not pursue a resolution to questions such as "is there or is there not a self?" or "Is there or is there not a God?" The Khuddaka Nikaya is an important part of Buddhist scripture. Some people, however, argue that it does not have the same gravitas as the other four Nikayas, and may come from other sources or other time frames than the other four Nikayas. I don't know if that's true or not, but there does seem to be more of a cloud of questioning surrounding it than is found for the other Nikayas. Granted, the ultimate validity of any "buddhist text" is determined by it's ability to truthfully approximate the dhamma.. .but in the case of KN, there seems to be enough other things going on with it that I try to steer clear of using it as the primary or sole foundation or focus for a discussion. KN remains a valuable source document for Buddhists everywhere. Respectfully, Bill Philip wrote: Hello all Thank you for the feedback on my question about this topic. Rob: > PS: To anticipate where this discussion on the 31 planes is going, > let me answer the question, "Do you believe in these 31 planes?". My > answer is, "I don't disbelieve. The Buddha discussed these planes of > existence in the Suttas many times. This is sufficient for me to > think that it might be true. I have no direct experience, nor does it > make logical sense to me (from my limited experience) that they must > exist as described. In summary, I don't disbelieve." Ph: I like this "I don't disbelieve." Last night as I thought about these petas, and planes of existence, and other aspects of Dhamma that my logical mind rejects at first glance, I thought of the expression "willing suspension of disbelief", which as we know is used to describe a movie-goer or novel-reader's willingness to go along with a fantastic story. Because of the undeniable life-changing easily-confirmable veracity of the Buddha' teaching of the Four Noble Truths, and other clear teachings that follow from there, I am willing to not disbelieve. Then I realized that "willing" suggests a self that is eager to find consolation in theory and therefore decides to not disbelieve, so I changed it to "wholesome suspension of disbelief." I think we can develop a "nevermind" attitude towards the aspects we don't respond to, and that developing this attitude might be wholesome. Metta, Phil 34160 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Jun 24, 2004 9:10pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Buddhaghosa Dear Sarah, thanks, I order it next time. op 24-06-2004 09:12 schreef sarah abbott op sarahprocterabbott@y...: > S: Buddhaghosuppatti, ed and transl by James Gray, PTS (2001) > A very slim volume but also includes the Pali. 34161 From: Sujjhanna Bhinnatta Date: Thu Jun 24, 2004 11:29pm Subject: Re: Transfer of Merit Hello Rob, Herman, Philip and anyone else eating these worms, Regarding your discussion on transference of merit and the 31 planes of existence: Rob: "The Buddha discussed these planes of existence in the Suttas many times. This is sufficient for me to think that it might be true. I have no direct experience, nor does it make logical sense to me (from my limited experience) that they must exist as described. In summary, I don't disbelieve." B: Here's the logical part, the experiential I leave to you. I paraphrased the following from Thanissaro Bhikku's introduction to the Ittivuttaka[1]. Essentially, the whole system of these different planes and the merit (or lack thereof) that puts us there all goes back to the Buddha's insight into kamma and intention. The Buddha discovered during the course of his awakening that the experience of the present moment is based on three factors: the results from past actions, present actions, and the results of present actions. Those familiar with basic chaos theory will recognize what is known as a feedback loop, with the present moment being shaped by both past and present actions; while present actions shape both the present and the future. This is Buddha's answer to how free will is possible in a deterministic structure like Paticca-samuppada (dependent co-arising). This free will (i.e. intention) is the essence of action. Furthermore, the quality of the intention determines the quality of the act and its results; skillfull, unskillfull, and mixed intentions lead to pleasant, painful, and mixed results respectively. The Buddha's direct experience of the power of intention confirmed for him the process of rebirth. And here comes the logic so I think I'll let Ven. Thanissaro speak directly here: "if experience of the present moment requires the influence of past intentions, then there is no way to account for experience at the beginning of life other than through the intentions of a previous lifetime. At the same time, the power of the quality of intention provided the framework for Buddha's vision of the cosmos in which the process of rebirth takes place: there are pleasant levels of rebirth -- the worlds of the Brahmas and the higher devas; unpleasant levels -- hell, the realms of the hungry shades, common animals, and the angry demons; and mixed levels -- the human realm and some of the lower deva realms. Even in the pleasant levels of rebirth, however, the pleasure is unstable and impermanent, giving no sure release from suffering and pain. The only secure release comes through transcendent skillful intentions, leading to the experience of nibbana, totally beyond the process of rebirth and the constraints of space and time." As an aside, Ven. Thanissaro defines earlier that "transcendent skillful intentions" are a fourth class of intentions that lead one to release from the results of the mundane intentions (i.e. no more present input into the loop), and ultimately the ending of all action. Rob: "As a recap, the questions are, 'How we can really share merit with someone who is dead?'" B: Merit - the name for the sum of all our mundane skillfull intentions and actions that determine our rebirth in various realms - it would seem, based on the above logic, is bound to us and therefore cannot be transfered. I have always understood the transference of merit ritual to be merely that. A ritual. It has wholesome intentions in that it is a way of generating compassion and well wishing toward others, and in the way it prevents us from wanting to simply accumulate good merit with hopes of securing a good rebirth in the next life (re: Bodhidharma and Emperor Wu[2]). R: If anatta is a reality than who or what would we be sharing with?" B: If anatta is a reality then who or what is sharing? or even asking in the first place? Just joking. Seriously though, this question and the ones I offered in response, come from a misinterpretation of anatta as meaning "no-self" rather than "not-self." The distinction is subtle yet, when realized, profoundly changes the direction of one's practice. That, however, is a thread of a different color altogether. Please forgive my pretentiousness. It is part of me. May you all be present, happy and at peace. Bhinnatta reference: [1] - Ven. Thanissaro Bhikku's introduction is located at http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/khuddaka/iti/index.html [2] - As the story goes, Bodhidharma goes to China; is invited for an audience with Emperor Wu Di of the Liang dynasty in 520. When the Emperor asked him how much merit he had accumulated through building temples and endowing monasteries, Bodhidharma replied, "None at all." Perplexed, the Emperor then asked, "Well, what is the fundamental teaching of Buddhism?" "Vast emptiness," was the bewildering reply. "Listen," said the Emperor, now losing all patience, "just who do you think you are?" "I have no idea," Bodhidharma replied. --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.708 / Virus Database: 464 - Release Date: 6/18/2004 34162 From: robmoult Date: Fri Jun 25, 2004 0:15am Subject: Re: Transfer of Merit Hi Bhinnatta, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Sujjhanna Bhinnatta" wrote: > Rob: "The Buddha discussed these planes of existence in the Suttas many > times. This is sufficient for me to think that it might be true. I have no > direct experience, nor does > it make logical sense to me (from my limited experience) that they > must exist as described. In summary, I don't disbelieve." > > B: Here's the logical part, the experiential I leave to you. ===== I am convinced of the reality of rebirth. Mozart and "love at first sight" are evidence enough for me to have a firm belief in rebirth. What I don't disbelieve is the various planes existing as described. Specifically, is there really a hungry ghost plane where beings can benefit from our wishing them well? My answer is, "I don't disbelieve." ===== > > Rob: "As a recap, the questions are, 'How we can really share merit with > someone who is dead?'" > > B: Merit - the name for the sum of all our mundane skillfull intentions and > actions that determine our rebirth in various realms - it would seem, based > on the above logic, is bound to us and therefore cannot be transfered. I > have always understood the transference of merit ritual to be merely that. A > ritual. It has wholesome intentions in that it is a way of generating > compassion and well wishing toward others, and in the way it prevents us > from wanting to simply accumulate good merit with hopes of securing a good > rebirth in the next life (re: Bodhidharma and Emperor Wu[2]). ===== Agreed (and well stated, I might add)! ===== > > R: If anatta is a reality than who or what would we > be sharing with?" > > B: If anatta is a reality then who or what is sharing? or even asking in the > first place? Just joking. Seriously though, this question and the ones I > offered in response, come from a misinterpretation of anatta as meaning > "no-self" rather than "not-self." The distinction is subtle yet, when > realized, profoundly changes the direction of one's practice. That, however, > is a thread of a different color altogether. ===== The "no-self" / "non-self" / "not-self" discussion is a real can of worms that I am not interested in opening :-) ===== > > Please forgive my pretentiousness. It is part of me. > ===== Pretentiousness? None noted :-) Metta, Rob M :-) 34163 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Jun 25, 2004 1:34am Subject: The Jhaanas and the Lay Disciple According to the Paali Suttas (9) The Jhaanas and the Lay Disciple According to the Paali Suttas Ven. Bhikkhu Bodhi Jhaana and Right Concentration (1) Though the above discussion seems to imply that the path of stream-entry might be reached without prior attainment of jhaana, the thesis that jhaana is necessary at every stage of enlightenment claims powerful support from the canonical account of the Noble Eightfold Path, which defines the path factor of right concentration (sammaa samaadhi) with the stock formula for the four jhaanas.[20] From this definition it might be argued that since right concentration is integral to the path, and since the jhaanas form the content of right concentration, the jhaanas are indispensable from the first stage of awakening to the last. This conclusion, however, does not necessarily follow. Even if we agree that the definition of right concentration by way of the jhaanas categorically means that the jhaanas must be reached in the course of developing the path, this need not be taken to stipulate that they must be attained prior to attaining stream-entry. It could be that attainment of jhaana is necessary to complete the development of the path, becoming mandatory at a relatively late point in the disciple's progress. That is, it may be a prerequisite for reaching one of the higher paths and fruits, but may not be indispensable for reaching the first path and fruit. The Theravaada exegetical system found in the Paali Commentaries handles this issue in a different way. Based on the Abhidhamma's classification of states of consciousness, the Commentaries distinguish two kinds of path: the preliminary (pubbabhaaga) or mundane (lokiya) path and the supramundane (lokuttara) path.[21] Two kinds of jhaanas, mundane and supramundane, correspond to these two kinds of path. The mundane jhaanas are exalted states of consciousness (mahaggata-citta) developed in the preliminary path, as a preparation for reaching the supramundane path; technically, they are "form-sphere" states of consciousness (ruupaavacara-citta), that is, types of consciousness typical of the "form realm" and tending to rebirth in the form realm. The supramundane jhaanas are supramundane states of consciousness (lokuttara-citta) identical with the supramundane paths or fruits themselves. This distinction allows the Commentaries to hold simultaneously two theses regarding the relation of jhaana to the path: (i) every path and fruition attainment, from the stage of stream-entry up, is also a jhaana, and thus all path-attainers are attainers of supramundane jhaana; (ii) not all path-attainers have reached jhaana in the preliminary path leading up to the supramundane path, and thus they need not be attainers of mundane (or form-sphere) jhaana. These two theses can be reconciled because the paths and fruits always occur at a level of concentration corresponding to one of the four jhaanas and thus may be considered jhaanas in their own right, though jhaanas of the supramundane rather than mundane type. These jhaanas are quite distinct from the mundane jhaanas, the exalted states of concentration pertaining to the form-sphere (ruupaavacara). As all path-attainers necessarily attain supramundane jhaana, they fulfil the definition of right concentration in the Noble Eightfold Path, but they may not have attained the form-sphere jhaanas prior to reaching the path. Those who do not attain jhaana develop a lower degree of concentration (called access concentration, upacaara-samaadhi) which they use as a basis to arouse insight and thereby reach the supramundane path. When those meditators who arouse insight without prior attainment of jhaana reach the supramundane path, their path attainment occurs at the level of the first supramundane jhaana. Those who have already cultivated the mundane jhaanas prior to attaining the path, it is said, generally attain a path that occurs at a jhaanic level corresponding to their degree of achievement in the practice of the mundane jhaanas.[22] ****** Notes 20. For example, at DN II 313 and SN V 10. 21. The distinction is found already in Dhs, in its analysis of the classes of wholesome consciousness pertaining to the sphere of form and the supramundane types of wholesome consciousness. See too the Jhaana-vibha,nga (Abhidhamma-bhaajaniiya) of Vibh. 22. See Vism XXI, 112-16. 34164 From: Herman Hofman Date: Fri Jun 25, 2004 1:36am Subject: RE: [dsg] Typos Hi Icaro, Your Railroad Tycoon goes to Darwin?!. Merde alors. I am limited to having to cart wool around the backwoods of Western NSW!!! Perhaps this is what is meant by akusala kamma vipika, or something. I think it is very mean :-) Herman Ah, Chris.. I finally managed to win the Australian Scenario of the Reailroad Tycoon!!!! I begun linking on Darwin, Tennant Creek and Alice Springs...thanks to Buddha there were bauxite ores at Alice Springs and Alluminium facilites at Darwin and tennant Creek and I made lots of profits on cargo...after I send my track headlong to barcaldine, Rockampton and finally Brisbane!!!!!!! Simple !!!! Mettaya, Ícaro 34165 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Jun 25, 2004 2:02am Subject: Re: [dsg] Complication (was Re: Dustrags) Dear Nina (& Phil), --- nina van gorkom wrote: > Dear Sarah, > lovely reminders about conceit while you were on the beach, so human. .... S:...and this morning when I read Phil's post about mad dogs and Englishmen out in the mid-day sun, I thought - at least this Englishwoman [sometimes!!] has the sense to go out early and stay in the shade! - More conceit at every turn;-). .... > I also liked the sutta quotes. Do you know, in the Abh. Human types, > puggala > pa~n~natti, we also find similer texts about people not staying angry > for > long. Do you have it? If not I shall try giving you a flavour of it. > Nina. ... S: Yes, thank you. It was a wedding present. I just checked Phil's sutta here in the 'Division of Human Types by Three'. In this translation it compares the angry person to a mark on stone, a mark on earth and a mark on water. I'll just type out the last one as it's open here: "What sort of person may be compared to a mark on water? Here a certain person who, even if he is spoken to in a strong and harsh and unpleasant manner, is connected and coherent, and makes himself agreeable. Just as a mark on water disappears quickly and does not last long, so also a certain person, etc. Such is the person who may be compared to a mark on water." I'd be glad to hear any other suttas or quote refs you have in mind. Metta, Sarah ======= 34166 From: Herman Hofman Date: Fri Jun 25, 2004 2:02am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Re Transfer of Merit Hi Rob M and everyone, I am assuming from the lack of posts countering what you wrote in your post that I originally referred to, that you are describing the thinking of mainstream Buddhism on transfer of merit very well indeed. That's probably why it was deemed a useful post :-) I can see the wisdom in your "not disbelieving" comment, and in those who concurred. I am of the school of logic that maintains that a double negation is meaningless, so I equate "not disbelieving" with "not having a view either way". And that position is impossible to improve upon. Still, in the world of views, it may be progressive to contrive to obtain the merit from all the saints in their penultimate births. Can a billion Catholics possibly be wrong ? :-) Thank you Herman Hi Herman, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Herman Hofman" wrote: > I find this interesting, but also very speculative. ===== I agree on both points. ===== > It seems, then, that > there is a foundation for Catholics to pray to Mary and the saints to > intercede for the souls of the dead? ===== Interesting parallel. However, in this case, we are the ones doing the interceding and we are not saints. In addition, we are not doing so because we are requested to do so, but rather that we are motivated ourselves to perform this practice. Finally, the recipients are not "dead", they are spending time as ghosts before their next rebirth. ===== > Surely we also share negative thoughts? ===== I included the following below to indicate that I believe that petas can sense our negative thoughts, but that since they have such a miserable existence, it doesn't impact them much... > I suspect that petas are also able to sense unwholesome mental > states, but this does not "send them down" as their existence is > already quite miserable. The opportunity for them to sense your > positive mental state is one of the few positive experiences > available to these petas and a positive experience provides an > opportunity for positive rebirth. Metta, Rob M :-) 34167 From: robmoult Date: Fri Jun 25, 2004 2:40am Subject: [dsg] Re: Re Transfer of Merit Hi Herman, Great! So you're not disagreeing with me :-) :-) :-) Metta, Rob M :-) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Herman Hofman" wrote: > Hi Rob M and everyone, > > I am assuming from the lack of posts countering what you wrote in your > post that I originally referred to, that you are describing the thinking > of mainstream Buddhism on transfer of merit very well indeed. That's > probably why it was deemed a useful post :-) > > I can see the wisdom in your "not disbelieving" comment, and in those > who concurred. > > I am of the school of logic that maintains that a double negation is > meaningless, so I equate "not disbelieving" with "not having a view > either way". And that position is impossible to improve upon. > > Still, in the world of views, it may be progressive to contrive to > obtain the merit from all the saints in their penultimate births. Can a > billion Catholics possibly be wrong ? :-) > > Thank you > > > Herman > > > Hi Herman, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Herman Hofman" > wrote: > > I find this interesting, but also very speculative. > > ===== > > I agree on both points. > > ===== > > > It seems, then, that > > there is a foundation for Catholics to pray to Mary and the saints > to > > intercede for the souls of the dead? > > ===== > > Interesting parallel. However, in this case, we are the ones doing > the interceding and we are not saints. In addition, we are not doing > so because we are requested to do so, but rather that we are > motivated ourselves to perform this practice. Finally, the recipients > are not "dead", they are spending time as ghosts before their next > rebirth. > > ===== > > Surely we also share negative thoughts? > > ===== > > I included the following below to indicate that I believe that petas > can sense our negative thoughts, but that since they have such a > miserable existence, it doesn't impact them much... > > > I suspect that petas are also able to sense unwholesome mental > > states, but this does not "send them down" as their existence is > > already quite miserable. The opportunity for them to sense your > > positive mental state is one of the few positive experiences > > available to these petas and a positive experience provides an > > opportunity for positive rebirth. > > Metta, > Rob M :-) 34168 From: Herman Hofman Date: Fri Jun 25, 2004 2:47am Subject: RE: [dsg] Virtues of the Buddha? Hi Philip, The Buddha also has 32 lakkhana and 80 anubyañjana which you may find useful to consider. http://users.pandora.be/dhammakaya/repository/lakkhana1.html The more I read the more I think it is also wise to remain viewless about the Holy Roman Catholic Church. I see little to separate the temple -attending devotee and the mass-attending devotee. Ciao Herman -----Original Message----- From: Philip [mailto:plnao@j...] Sent: Tuesday, 22 June 2004 9:46 AM To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Subject: [dsg] Virtues of the Buddha? Hello all I find these days that for various reasons I am wanting to reflect on the virtues or qualities of the Buddha, but I don't know exactly what they are so I find myself thinking about the Brahma- Viharas. What are the traditional lists, if you will, of the virtues of the Buddha that are used in such recollections? Thanks in advance. And thanks in passing to Sarah and Nina for messages that I won't be able to respond to until tomorrow. And thanks to Christine for the fab Dhammapada links! :) Metta, Phil 34169 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Jun 25, 2004 3:01am Subject: Re:dsg] Bodhi: The Jhaanas and the Lay Disciple According to the Paali Suttas (1) Dear Tzung kuen, I meant to reply to your letter below earlier. Thank you for your comments. --- Mr Tzung-Kuen Wen wrote: > Dear Sraah > T: >...Since > there is no doubt that the commentaries acknowledge the sukkhavipassaka > method, people who deny the possibility of attainment of arahantship > without jhana usually do not accept post-canonical commentaries as > authority. ... S: To reject the commentaries as authority on this basis would, I think, show a very strong view about the importance of jhanas in this regard. I am curious about the reasons for this. ..... > T: > I believe that as far as Mahasi¡|s meditation tradition is concerned, > they argued to justify the methods of meditation practice they are using > for the benefits of the ordinary people who don¡|t have time and ability > to read the Pali texts directly. .... S: I think again it relates to the idea of practice and what should be done, rather than understood perhaps. .... > T: > Since it is said that ¡¥one who is concentrated knows and sees [dhammas] > as they really are¡|. Concentration (samadhi) is regarded as the > proximate cause of wisdom. (Vism 438 (PTS)) .... S: They arise together and are each the promate cause of the other as I understand, developing together. .... T:>The question may arise that > to which level of concentration one should develop in order to gain > insight into the reality of all mental and physical dhammas. If jhana > is the requisite for attainment of magga-phala, we have no choice but to > practice samatha meditat > ion to attain jhanas before trying to practice vipassana meditation, > otherwise, the aim to understand the reality of rupa-nama and nibbana > will never be achieved. ..... S: In your view, what does it mean 'to practice samatha meditation to attain jhanas'? Can there be any control or order over what kind of kusala arises at this moment? If there is any idea of 'trying to practice vipassana meditation' as opposed to understanding currently arising namas and rupas, can it be right? What I am getting at is that these arguments about certain orders all suggest an idea of a self that can control or arrange practices when we know the teachings are about anatta. .... > T: > I happen to have two passages of the definition of vipassana. > Patis ¢º 96: > Insight is in the sense of contemplation as impermanent; insight is in > the sense of contemplation as painful; insight is in the sense of > contemplation as not self. (Aniccato anupassanat.t.hena vipassanaa > dukkhato anupassanat.t.hena vipassanaa, anattato anupasanat.t.hena > vipassanaa) > > Patis-a ¢1 116: > It sees dhammas in various ways in relation to impermanence etc., so it > is vipassana. Wisdom has this name. (Aniccataadivasena vividhehi > aakaarehi dhamme passatiiti vipassanaa. Pa~n~naayetam naamam.) .... S: Good. Suan and I also looked at definitions in the Vibhanga and also concluded vipassana is a synonym of pa~n~naa: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/31806 (You might like to look at other posts under 'vipassana' in U.P.) .... > T: > As you know, many people (and some Western scholars) deny the > authority of post-canonical commentaries and try to understand the > meaning of the Pali Canon in their own ways. I don¡|t want to say it¡|s > wrong, but I think it might be dangerous if they don't consider > traditional interpretations. .... S: I agree. Often I think it's because the traditional interpretations in the commentaries are not fully understood or conflict with other deeply cherished beliefs. It's not easy. .... T:> If we know how the Buddhist Canons were transmitted to us, we will > not insist with dosa that only this or that is the words of the Buddha, > only this or that is the correct interpretation. Instead, we will wisely > use the Buddhist Canon and commentaries only to reduce our defilements. ... S: Dosa or clinging to wrong views are never helpful. However, the teachings can be tested and proved so that panna or the development of vipassana can realize what is the correct interpretation and what is the 'Buddha's word' without doubt. For example, if an idea of practice leads to more idea of self and less idea of conditioned realities, we know it is not the 'Buddha's word'. .... T:> From the scholarly perspective, the best way to approach, if it is > possible, the words of the historical Buddha is to compare, as possible > as we can, different versions of Buddhist Canon and different > interpretations given in the post-canonical commentaries preserved in > different schools. .... S: From a scholarly or even historical perspective this may be true. However, from the perspective of directly understanding namas and rupas right now, I'm not sure that it's helpful. When we read different interpretations,we can test out what is true. For example, what I very briefly summarised from the Katthavatthu yesterday regarding the idea (Sarvastivadin) that past present and future realities exist. Panna knows that only the present dhammas ever exist even though scholarly research will show that the different interpretations were based on the same suttas at the same time. When I occasionally read papers by historians or modern scholars, I find so much depends on their understanding and interpretations of the Pali texts and commentaries. Often it seems there is some discrepancy between the suttas and Abhidhamma or between the suttas and Pali commentaries and this leads them to various conclusions about later ideas or formulations whereas when I read the same passages, I don't find any discrepancies, merely a practical and detailed elaboration of what is already contained in the suttas. Texts like the Kathavatthu and its commentary just confirm this for me. ..... > T: > ¡¥vipassanaa-pubbangamam samatham¡| means ¡¥samatha which is preceded by > vipassana¡|. This is explained in commentaries to indicate the > meditative way of ¡¥sukkhavipassaka¡| (dry -insighter) who practices > directly vipassana meditation without previously attaining ¡¥access > concentration¡| or jhanas. > ¡¥Vipassanaa-yaanika¡|or 'suddha-vipassanaa-yaanika' is synonyms of > 'sukkhavipassaka'. .... S: This is as I understand (AN: 4.170). Surely here is an arahant. By 'practices vipassana meditation', I think vipassana bhavana is being referred to. I prefer to put it by way of developing vipassana (bhavana) without the connotation of any special action. Glad for your comments. ... > S: > Whatever the rights and wrongs, like now, we?re all studying the Dhamma > together, but by inclination we have different strengths and weaknesses - > one will have more saddha, another more viriya and so on. So I?m sure > that > there are a very large number of possibilities depending on cittas > arising > at the time. > > T: > I agree with you. It doesn¡|t matter, I think, whether our > interpretations of the Canon are precise or not (who knows, the Buddha > is not here), the most important thing is to observe our mind as it > really is in order to reduce our immeasurable defilements. .... S: This isn't quite what I meant above. I think it matters a lot whether our interpretations and understanding of the Canon are precise and as pa~n~naa develops it will know more and more precisely. What I meant was that while pa~n~naa develops, the different accumulations and strengths and weaknesses arise so there are an infinite number of possible cittas and possible 'types' of worldlings or ariyans. I think the most important thing is to understand whatever nama or rupa appears at the present moment without any selection, choice or idea of self observing or wishing. The path will lead to the reduction and eventually the eradication of the defilements, but not by any desire for such a reduction. I look forward to any more of your well-considered comments. Metta, Sarah ====== 34170 From: agriosinski Date: Fri Jun 25, 2004 5:06am Subject: Re: Wheel sutta --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > Hi Larry and friends, > Here is the sutta that matches so well our Tiika Vis. 83 study. With the Co, > > The Wheel Sutta. > Cattaarimaani bhikkhave, cakkaani, > there are four wheels, monks, Hi Nina. Is there any way I could have the first two Dhammacakkapavattana Sutta Anattalakkhana Sutta and whats third? Simsapa Sutta? in this, "interlinear" form? Are they also availeble in MP3 as a Pali chant somewhere? metta, Agrios 34171 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Jun 25, 2004 6:14am Subject: The Jhaanas and the Lay Disciple According to the Paali Suttas (10) The Jhaanas and the Lay Disciple According to the Paali Suttas Ven. Bhikkhu Bodhi Jhaana and Right Concentration (2) Though the Nikaayas do not clearly distinguish the two types of paths and jhaanas, several suttas foreshadow this distinction, the most prominent among them being the Mahaacattaariisaka Sutta.[23] The distinction becomes explicit in the Abhidhamma, where it is used as a basis for the definitions of the form-sphere and supramundane wholesome states of consciousness. The Commentaries go one step further and adopt this distinction as foundational to their entire method of exegesis. Although one is certainly not justified in reading the interpretative concepts of the Commentaries into the canonical texts themselves, since the Commentaries feel obliged to explain the definition of right concentration as the four jhaanas in a way that does not imply all path-attainers possess the form-sphere jhaanas, this makes it plain that they did not regard the form-sphere jhaanas as a prerequisite for attaining the path of stream-entry. ****** Notes 23. MN No. 117. In this sutta the Buddha distinguishes five of the path factors, from right view through right livelihood, into two kinds, one "connected with taints, partaking of merit, ripening in the aggregates" (saasava pu--abhaagiya upadhivepakka), the other "noble, taintless, supramundane, a factor of the path" (ariya anaasava lokuttara magga,nga). "Noble right concentration with its supports and requisites" (ariya sammaa samaadhi sa-upanisa sa-parikkhaara) is mental one-pointedness equipped with the other seven factors in their noble, supramundane dimension. If the latter is understood to be supramundane jhaana, then we might suppose the jhaanas usually described in the training of the disciple are "connected with taints, partaking of merit, ripening in the aggregates." The texts never describe the jhaanas in quite these terms, but some suttas imply their attainment leads only to a higher rebirth without necessarily conducing to deliverance. See note 39 below. [39. See AN 4:123/II 126-28, which contrasts the worldling who attains the jhaanas with the Buddhist disciple who attains them.] 34172 From: Philip Date: Fri Jun 25, 2004 6:49am Subject: [dsg] Complication (was Re: Dustrags) Hi Sarah A chance to catch up with you on this thread > ..... Ph: > >And indeed, it is not so much the topic of conceit that > > interests me, but unnessary complication. We are bound to think > > conceptually - we need to to survive in the world- but should it be > > encouraged as a method of right understanding? > .... > S: I don't read these examples (eg dustrag metaphor) as being an > encouragement to think conceptually or `complicate?E I think that just as > certain metaphors or similes we read or hear about may be conditions for > wise reflection on the brahma viharas or parami or even for moments of > right understanding arising, so may others be helpful reminders of the > danger of conceit or clinging to self and the value of detachment or > wisdom too. It just depends on the time and our tendencies. Ph: And I guess it also depends on our capacity, if you will, at the time. As Nina said in another post in this thread: Nina: > There are many >beautiful similes in the suttas. We do not think of paramattha >dhammas all >day. We poor worldlings should grab anything that can help us. Ph: I think my talk with Rob K inspired me in the direction of looking into realities *now* but we have to be patient. I certainly agree it is better to spend time reflecting on a wholesome simile than gazing in a glassy-eyed stupor at the latest installment of Temptation Island. Ph:> > It just seemed to me that the whole simile of the dustrag is > > unnecessarily complicated. If we have understanding of annata and the > > other characteristics - even intellectual knowledge - why not go > > straight there? Isn't giving rise to the simile of a dustrag a kind > > of papanca that we could avoid? > >I am just beginning to learn about > > papanca. > S: Of course there can be wise and unwise reflection (i.e papanca) of > anything including dustrags. If one has the idea that one should think of > oneself as a dustrag, it might be yet another ritual and definitely a kind > of papanca, I agree. Ph: I will want to learn a lot more about papanca. It seems to me to be very, very important, judging only from the wee little bit I've read about it. To what degree is it inevitable for worldlings, and uncontrollable. At what point does it begin to die down? How do panna and sati work to subdue papanca, if that's the right word? Is it papanca that makes the world "a burning house", as the Buddha called it, if I recall. That's the way I feel - in an affectionate way- towards people, including myself, these days. All this spinning out of the mental reel, all the proliferation of akusala factors. It would seem to me that things can only descend into chaos, eventually, as the result of that. Who is willing to be silent mentally? Are we who love DSG capable of being mentally quiet? Don't we all love to spin out ideas? Fortunately, we have an openness to the Buddha's teaching to guide us away from excesses, but...I don't think I could live without my mental proliferation. Is it a myth that the brain that does not dream goes mad? What about the mind that doesn't proliferate? Is that only the arahant? S:> As a side note, understanding of the three characteristics always relates > *the characteristics of realities*. There cannot be the understanding of > anatta without understanding the characteristic of seeing or visible > object or conceit, for example. It is the understanding of these realities > as anatta that is meant. Ph: Well, I think this is a deeper kind of understanding than what I'm referring to. I find that these days in the morning I just sit with my coffee and think intellectually about annata. Think about khandas, about the idea of rupa and nama falling. Think of people rushing around through life in the mistaken belief that they have a coherent and lasting self in control of things. I think of my hair falling out and my skin getting more and more wrinkled and the way the vegetable field below our balcony keeps changing. I think of all the craving I did the day before, and watch all the little leaps of anticipation or regret that pop up as I sip my coffee. This is just pondering the three characterstics, but I think it grounds me in the Dhamma for the day ahead. So I would say that understanding annata conceptually as a theme for reflection is still helpful even when it is nowhere near real investigation of realites. The difference is that since finding Abhidhamma this conceptual understanding of annata is somehow much clearer. It is like I have a map that I can lay out on my lap and glace at as I ponder, or something. In any case, the thing I am really wanting to do these days is reread ADL and see if I can answer the questions, order the Manual of Abhidhamma edited by Bhikkhu Bodhi, read Nina's "Cetasikas", and "Conditions." Instead of doing quite so much speculative babbling - I want to get at the works. Indeed, "there cannot be the understanding of anatta without understanding the characteristic of seeing or visible object or conceit, for example" as you said. I know I have only barely begun to understand annata. I want to get deeper into the works. Maybe that is why I am curious about papanca because it must surely take us into shallower waters as it spins out and away from investigation of realites. Rob M was talking about the process of "perversion of thought" leading to "perversion of view." This is involved too. It's all so fascinating. I wish I had 7 heads with 3 brains each, and an extra day off a week. Sleepy. This was another babbly post. Thanks again for your long and thorough response, Sarah. The parts I didn't get too I will be re- reading later. Metta, Phil 34173 From: icarofranca Date: Fri Jun 25, 2004 8:17am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism. 83, Larry, Icaro Daer Larry: > > No rush. Icaro and I shall meditate until you are ready. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- You will meditate on Mean, Larry, since you like Mean so much!! Mean Square Root Arithmetic Mean Geometric Mean Harmonic Mean The product of means is equal to product to extremes How Buddha considered mean at the Suttas Mean Mean Mean !!!! I will watch Rocky & Bullwinkle show on TV!!!!! mettaya, Ícaro 34174 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Jun 25, 2004 11:48am Subject: Tiika Vis. 83, Pali Pali Vis. 83: tattha kusala.m bhuumibhedato catubbidha.m kaamaavacara.m ruupaavacara.m aruupaavacara.m lokuttara~nca. tattha kaamaavacara.m somanassupekkhaa~naa.nasa"nkhaarabhedato a.t.thavidha.m. seyyathida.m. somanassasahagata.m ~naa.nasampayutta.m asa"nkhaara.m sasa"nkhaara~nca, tathaa~naa.navippayutta.m. upekkhaasahagata.m ~naa.nasampayutta.m asa"nkhaara.m sasa"nkhaara~nca, tathaa ~naa.navippayutta.m. *** Tiika Vis. 83, Pali Pali-English: Explanation of the kusala citta that is associated with pleasant feeling: Tiika: Sobhana.m mano, sundara.m vaa mano etassaati sumano, sumanassa bhaavo somanassa.m, Pleasant feeling (somanassa) is the state of a good mind, it is of a splendid (sobhana) or beautiful mentality, and thus a ³happy mind², maanasikasukhaa vedanaa ru.lhiyaa, feeling that is the effect of a happy state of mind. N: The Tiika gives a word derivation of somanassa: su is good and mano is mind. See also Co to the Topics of the Abhidhamma (p. 12). Tiika: somanassena uppaadato pa.t.thaaya yaava bha"ngaa sahagata.m pavatta.m sa.msa.t.tha.m, sampayuttanti attho. It means that it is accompanied by pleasant feeling, because it has arisen with pleasant feeling by conditions, connected with it, occurring conjoined with it, until it dissolves. Somanassasahagatataa cassa aaramma.navasena veditabbaa. It should be known that the citta is accompanied by pleasant feeling also on account of the object. I.t.thaaramma.ne hi citta.m somanassasahagata.m hoti. Citta is accompanied by pleasant feeling on account of a desirable object. Nanu ca i.t.thaaramma.na.m lobhassa vatthu, katha.m tattha kusala.m hotiiti? But is a desirable object not the fundamental cause of greed? How can it be kusala in that case? Nayidamekantika.m i.t.thepi aabhogaadivasena kusalassa uppajjanato. This is a specific method of explanation in virtue of the arising of kusala citta that rejoices also in a desirable object. Yassa hi catusampatticakkasamaayogaadivasena yonisova aabhogo hoti, The reasons of the fact that the citta rejoices with right attention are: being possessed of the four wheels of prosperity and so on, kusalameva ca mayaa kattabbanti kusalakara.ne citta.m niyamita.m, being determined on good deeds, thinking, we ought to do meritorious deeds, akusalappavattito ca nivattetvaa kusalakara.ne eva pari.naamita.m, being bent only on wholesome deeds by inhibiting the occurring of akusala, abhi.nhakara.navasena ca samudaacarita.m, being well 'trained' in constant practice. tassa i.t.thepi aaramma.ne alobhaadisampayuttameva citta.m hoti, na lobhaadisampayutta.m. Because of this the citta is accompanied by non-attachment etc. on account of a desirable object, and not accompanied by attachment etc. Explanation of the citta to be accompanied by wisdom: Tiika: Yo hi paresa.m dhamma.m deseti, Who teaches the Dhamma to others, anavajjaani sippaayatanakammaayatanavijja.t.thaanaani sikkhaapetiiti evamaadika.m pa~n~naasa.mvattaniya.m karoti, and trains them in blameless arts, manual labour and knowledge, and is thus performing things that are leading to wisdom, tassa kammuupanissayavasena kusalacitta.m uppajjamaana.m ~naa.nasampayutta.m hoti. for him the kusala citta that arises and is conditioned by such kamma is accompanied by wisdom... Tathaa pa~n~naadasakapattassa indriyaparipaaka.m nissaaya kusala.m uppajjamaana.m ~naa.nasampayutta.m hoti. Moreover, when kusala citta arises in dependence on the maturity of the faculties, for him who has arrived at the wisdom-decade, it does so in association with knowledge. Yena pana kilesaa vikkhambhitaa, tassa kilesaduuriibhaava.m nissaaya ~naa.nasampayutta.m hoti. By whom the defilements are subdued, for him the citta, because of being removed from defilements, is accompanied by wisdom. N: As to subdued, vikkhambhita, this pertains to the temporary elimination of the hindrances by jhaana attainment. This is vikkhambhana pahåna, overcoming by repression. The citta accompanied by wisdom can attain jhaana. Vuttampi ceta.m ³yogaa ve jaayate bhuuri, ayogaa bhuurisa"nkhayo²ti (dha. pa. 282). As is said (in Dhammapada 282): Explanation of prompted and unprompted: N: The Expositor explains the word sa.nkhaara, prompting, as external plan, effort, instigation by oneself or someone else. A citta that is prompted can arise from self-instigation, or The Tiika explains that the citta can be prompted by the instigation of oneself or by another, and that when there is not such prompting the citta is unprompted, asa"nkhaarika. Explanation of the kusala citta being unaccompanied by wisdom: Tiika: ~naa.nena vippayutta.m virahitanti ~naa.navippayutta.m. ~Naa.navippayutta.m means dissociated, exempt from wisdom... Explanation of the kusala citta being associated with indifferent feeling : Tiika: Upekkhatiiti upekkhaa, vedayamaanaapi aaramma.na.m ajjhupekkhati majjhattataakaarasa.n.thitattaati attho. It is disinterested and thus indifferent feeling, it means that while it feels on account of the object it is indifferent, it has the mode of staying in the middle. N: The Commentary explains upekkhaa by means of word associations: upekkhati in Pali means, to look on, to be disinterested. Also the word ajjhupekkhati is used, meaning: to be indifferent. Tiika: Atha vaa upetaa sukhadukkhaana.m aviruddhaa ikkhaa anubhavananti upekkhaa. Alternatively, indifferent feeling that is confronted with pleasure and pain experiences it while it looks on and is not obstructed by it. N: The word ikkhaa is.used. Ikkhati means: to look on. Tiika: Atha vaa i.t.the ca ani.t.the ca aaramma.ne pakkhapaataabhaavena upapattito yuttito ikkhati anubhavatiiti upekkhaa, taaya sahagatanti upekkhaasahagata.m. Or else, it experiences a desirable or undesirable object and it looks on as it arises in an impartial way and thus it is indifferent feeling, upekkhaa. The citta that is associated with that feeling is called: associated with indifferent feeling. Sesa.m sabba.m he.t.thaa vuttanayameva. All the rest is according to the same method as explained above. **** Nina. 34175 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Jun 25, 2004 11:48am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism. 83, Larry, Icaro Hi Larry, op 25-06-2004 01:17 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...:> > No rush. Icaro and I shall meditate until you are ready. N: There is a lot to meditate on. I was so impressed by the texts, about the concurrence of all those condiitons for kusala citta with pañña. We know about natural decisive support, but knowing details helps to have more understanding of it. Nina. 34176 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Jun 25, 2004 11:48am Subject: Tiika Vis. 83, English Vis. 83 text: I. Herein, the 'profitable' is fourfold according to plane, namely, (A) of the sense sphere, (B) of the fine-material sphere, (C) of the immaterial sphere, and (D) supramundane.(36) I. A. Herein, (1)-(8) that of the 'sense sphere' is eightfold, being classified according to joy, equanimity, knowledge, and prompting, that is to say: (1) when accompanied-by-joy it is either associated-with-knowledge and unprompted, or (2) prompted; or (3) it is dissociated-from-knowledge and likewise [unprompted, or (4) prompted]; and (5) when accompanied-by-equanimity it is either associated-with-knowledge and prompted, or (6) unprompted; or (7) it is dissociated-from-knowledge [453] and likewise [unprompted, or (8) prompted]. Tiika Vis. 83, English Tiika Vis. 83, continued (after note 36 on kaamaavacara, cittas of the sense-sphere): Explanation of the kusala citta that is associated with pleasant feeling: ******************************************************** Tiika: Pleasant feeling (somanassa) is the state of a good mind, it is of a splendid (sobhana) or beautiful mentality, and thus a ³happy mind², feeling that is the effect of a happy state of mind. N: The Tiika gives a word derivation of somanassa: su is good and mano is mind. See also Co to the Topics of the Abhidhamma (p. 12). Tiika: It means that it is accompanied by pleasant feeling, because it has arisen with pleasant feeling by conditions, connected with it, occurring conjoined with it, until it dissolves. N: The citta with pleasant feeling arises, is present for an extremely short moment and then it dissolves. Pleasant feeling cannot last, it dissolves together with the citta. Tiika: It should be known that the citta is accompanied by pleasant feeling also on account of the object. Citta is accompanied by pleasant feeling on account of a desirable object. But is a desirable object not the fundamental cause of greed? How can it be kusala in that case? This is a specific method of explanation in virtue of the arising of kusala citta that rejoices also in a desirable object. The reasons of the fact that the citta rejoices with right attention are: being possessed of the four wheels of prosperity and so on, being determined on good deeds, thinking, we ought to do meritorious deeds, being bent only on wholesome deeds by inhibiting the occurring of akusala, being well 'trained' in constant practice. Because of this the citta is accompanied by non-attachment etc. on account of a desirable object, and not accompanied by attachment etc. N: See the Expositor (I, p. 100) and my Intro. Explanation of the citta to be accompanied by wisdom: ******************************************* The Tiika then explains the conditions for the citta to be accompanied by wisdom, ~naa.nasampayutta. Here the text is similar to the Expositor (p. 100): <...birth as determined by past kamma, maturity of the controlling faculties, and distance from the corruptions.> N: Kusala citta accompanied by wisdom in a past life can produce rebirth-consciousness accompanied by wisdom. If wisdom is developed in that life enlightenment can be attained. As to maturity of the faculties, indriyas: the spiritual faculties of confidence, energy, mindfulness concentration and wisdom have to be developed. Tiika: Who teaches the Dhamma to others, anavajjaani sippaayatanakammaayatanavijja.t.thaanaani sikkhaapetiiti evamaadika.m pa~n~naasa.mvattaniya.m karoti, and trains them in blameless arts, manual labour and knowledge, and is thus performing things that are leading to wisdom, tassa kammuupanissayavasena kusalacitta.m uppajjamaana.m ~naa.nasampayutta.m hoti. for him the kusala citta that arises and is conditioned by such kamma is accompanied by wisdom... N: Even training others in worldly knowledge can be an accumulated condition for the arising of wisdom. Tiika: Moreover, when kusala citta arises in dependence on the maturity of the faculties, for him who has arrived at the wisdom-decade, it does so in association with knowledge. N: The wisdom decad is the ten years from forty to fifty. The Visuddhimagga explains the different decads in the life of humans, from babyhood to old age. Tiika: By whom the defilements are subdued, for him the citta, because of being removed from defilements, is accompanied by wisdom. N: As to subdued, vikkhambhita, this pertains to the temporary elimination of the hindrances by jhaana attainment. This is vikkhambhana pahåna, overcoming by repression. The citta accompanied by wisdom can attain jhaana. Tiika: As is said (in Dhammapada 282): Explanation of prompted and unprompted: ********************************* N: The Expositor explains the word sa.nkhaara, prompting, as external plan, effort, instigation by oneself or someone else. A citta that is prompted can arise from self-instigation, or The Tiika explains that the citta can be prompted by the instigation of oneself or by another, and that when there is not such prompting the citta is unprompted, asa"nkhaarika. Explanation of the kusala citta being unaccompanied by wisdom: *************************************************** Tiika: ~Naa.navippayutta.m means dissociated, exempt from wisdom... Explanation of the kusala citta being associated with indifferent feeling : ******************************************************** Tiika: It is disinterested and thus indifferent feeling, it means that while it feels on account of the object it is indifferent, it has the mode of staying in the middle. N: The Commentary explains upekkhaa by means of word associations: upekkhati in Pali means, to look on, to be disinterested. Also the word ajjhupekkhati is used, meaning: to be indifferent. Tiika: Alternatively, indifferent feeling that is confronted with pleasure and pain experiences it while it looks on and is not obstructed by it. N: The word ikkhaa is.used. Ikkhati means: to look on. Tiika: Or else, it experiences a desirable or undesirable object and it looks on as it arises in an impartial way and thus it is indifferent feeling, upekkhaa. The citta that is associated with that feeling is called: associated with indifferent feeling. N: Upekkhaa, indifferent feeling, should not be confused with the sobhana cetasika tatramajjhattataa, equanimity, which can also be denoted as upekkhaa. The word upekkhaa can stand for different realities depending on the context. (See Vis. IV, 157). Indifferent feeling can arise with kusala citta, akusala citta, vipaakacitta and kiriyacitta. Tiika: All the rest is according to the same method as explained above. **** Nina. 34177 From: Date: Fri Jun 25, 2004 6:16pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Tiika Vis. 83, Pali Hi Nina, Does kusala citta accompanied by equanimity necessarily have a desirable object? Another question: if panna contemplating dukkha is accompanied by joy then the object must be the insight itself, correct? Larry 34178 From: Date: Fri Jun 25, 2004 6:33pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism. 83, Larry, Icaro Hi Icaro, Is there any kusala citta in watching Rocky and Bullwinkle? Larry 34179 From: Date: Fri Jun 25, 2004 6:38pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Tiika Vis. 83, English Hi Nina, Can wisdom be prompted? Larry 34180 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Jun 25, 2004 11:52pm Subject: The Jhaanas and the Lay Disciple According to the Paali Suttas (11) 11 The Jhaanas and the Lay Disciple According to the Paali Suttas Ven. Bhikkhu Bodhi The Stream-enterer and Jhaana (1) The contention between the two parties in the contemporary debate might be recapitulated thus: Those who assert that jhaana is necessary for the attainment of stream-entry usually insist that a mundane (or form-sphere) jhaana must be secured before one can enter the supramundane path. Those who defend the dry-insight approach hold that a mundane jhaana is not indispensable, that a lower degree of concentration suffices as a basis for the cultivation of insight and the attainment of the path. Both parties usually agree that jhaana is part of the actual path experience itself. The issue that divides them is whether the concentration in the preliminary portion of the path must include a jhaana. To decide this question, I wish to query the texts themselves and ask whether they show us instances of stream-enterers who are not attainers of the jhaanas. Now while there are no suttas which flatly state that it is possible to become a stream-enterer without having attained at least the first jhaana, I think there are several that imply as much. (1) Let us start with the Cuu.ladukkhakkhandha Sutta (MN No. 14). The sutta opens when the Sakyan lay disciple Mahaanaama, identified by the commentary as a once-returner, comes to the Buddha and presents him with a personal problem. Although he has long understood, through the guidance of the teaching, that greed, hatred, and delusion are corruptions of the mind (cittassa upakkilesa), such states still arise in him and overpower his mind. This troubles him and makes him wonder what the underlying cause might be. In his reply the Buddha says: "Even though a noble disciple has clearly seen with perfect wisdom that sensual pleasures give little satisfaction and are fraught with suffering and misery, rife with greater danger, if he does not achieve a rapture and happiness apart from sensual pleasures, apart from unwholesome states, or something more peaceful than this, then he is not beyond being enticed by sensual pleasures."[24] The first part of this statement implies that the subject is at least a stream-enterer, for he is referred to as a "noble disciple" (ariya-saavaka). Though the term ariya-saavaka is occasionally used in a loose sense that need not be taken to imply attainment of stream-entry, here the expression "seeing with perfect wisdom" seems to establish his identity as at least a stream-enterer. Yet the second part of the statement implies he does not possess even the first jhaana, for the phrase used to describe what he lacks ("a rapture and happiness apart from sensual pleasures, apart from unwholesome states") precisely echoes the wording of the basic formula for the first jhaana. The state "more peaceful than that" would, of course, be the higher jhaanas. ****** Notes 24. MN I 91. 34181 From: icarofranca Date: Sat Jun 26, 2004 4:52am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism. 83, Larry, Icaro Hi Larry! > Is there any kusala citta in watching Rocky and Bullwinkle? Of course!!! Entirely Kammavacaara Kusala Citta ( Nina is expounding this Abdhidhamma teaching just now)...perhaps the best animated cartoon of the early sixties, with plenty of meaning even at present days. And all the Jay Ward´s off-shots like Peabody´s Improvable History, Aesop and Son, Dudley Do-Right of the Mounties, Fractured Fairy tales and so on keep the beat and rhythym intended by their creator. Watching Rocky & Bullwinkle is like appreciate Jazz or classical tunes, sipping or not (if you aren´t fond of beverages)a glass of beaujolais noveau... or a full carafe, if you like! Larry, ever forget the meaning ( you like mean so much, I see!) of Nina´s Abdhidhamma in Dairy Life... it´s not only a matter of read, appreciate and memorize Buddhaghosa´s works ( I did it with some passages of the Dhammasangani, with the best of results!!!), but see all Buddha´s teachings as an affair or relationship between your mind and the external reality out of your sense doors. I always interpreted Rocky & Bullwinkle as the relationship between the First Illuminati - Rocky - and the first acharya or guru - Bullwinkle. The main drawings of Rocky, standing on foot alone at the top of a mountain, smiling and with arms widely open, are a symbol of the first related illuminati of Índia, Rishabadev...and Bullwinkle, the Mr. Know-it-all of even season, is the image of the classical acharya. Perhaps the good and old Jay Ward didn´t conceive his characters as symbols of mindfullness, but that´s the way I see them now and ever! Mettaya, Ícaro 34182 From: icarofranca Date: Sat Jun 26, 2004 4:58am Subject: Re: [dsg] Tiika Vis. 83, English Dear Larry: > Can wisdom be prompted? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- When you have got a prompted state of consciousness raised up by the sayings of your mother or father, guru or even Buddha, if these sayings are correct and adequate to the situation focused by your understanding, so you get a prompted state of mind called wisdom anyway. Buddha had stated only not getting yourself attached to wrong views or doubts, prompted or unprompted. Mettaya, Ícaro 34183 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Jun 26, 2004 5:01am Subject: The Jhaanas and the Lay Disciple According to the Paali Suttas (12) The Jhaanas and the Lay Disciple According to the Paali Suttas Ven. Bhikkhu Bodhi The Stream-enterer and Jhaana (2) (2) At AN 5:179/III 211, the Buddha speaks, with reference to "a lay follower clothed in white" (gihii odaatavasana), of four "pleasant dwellings in this very life pertaining to the higher mind" (cattaaro aabhicetasikaa di.t.thadhamma-sukhavihaaraa). Now in relation to monks, the Nikaayas invariably use this expression to mean the four jhaanas.[25] If it were considered commonplace, or even paradigmatic, for a lay noble disciple to attain the four jhaanas, one would expect the Buddha to explain the above expression in the same way as he does for monks. But he does not. Rather, when he specifies what these "pleasant abidings" mean for the noble lay follower, he identifies them with the possession of the four "factors of stream-entry" (sotaapattiya,nga), namely, confirmed confidence in the Buddha, the Dhamma, and the Sangha, and possession of "the virtues dear to the noble ones." This difference in explanation has important ramifications and is indicative of major differences in expectations regarding lay followers and monks. (3) At AN VI 10/III 284-88, the Sakyan noble Mahaanaama again approaches the Buddha and inquires about the meditative practice of "a noble disciple who has reached the fruit and understood the message" (ariyasaavako aagataphalo vi--aatasaasano). Here again, it is clear from the epithets used that the question concerns a lay follower who has realized stream-entry or some higher stage. Further, at the end of each expository section, the Buddha stresses the ariyan stature of the disciple with the words: "This is called, Mahaanaama, a noble disciple who among unrighteous humanity has attained righteousness, who among an afflicted humanity dwells unafflicted, who has entered the stream of the Dhamma and develops recollection of the Buddha" (and so for each object of recollection).[26] In his reply the Buddha shows how the lay disciple takes up one of the six objects of recollection (cha anussati): the Three Jewels, morality, generosity, and the devas. As the disciple recollects each theme, his mind is not obsessed by lust, hatred, or delusion, but becomes upright (ujugata): "With an unright mind he gains the inspiration of the goal, the inspiration of the Dhamma, gladness connected with the Dhamma. When he is gladdened rapture arises, his body becomes tranquil, and he experiences happiness. For one who is happy the mind becomes concentrated."[27] As this passage shows, contemplation based on the Buddha (and the other objects of recollection) culminates in samaadhi, yet the nature of this samaadhi is not elucidated by way of the jhaana formula. In fact, the Nikaayas never ascribe to these reflective contemplations the capacity to induce jhaana, and this is expressly denied in the Commentaries, which hold that because these meditation subjects involve intensive use of discursive thought they can lead only as far as access concentration (upacaara-samaadhi). It thus seems that the type of concentration typically available to a lay noble disciple at the stage of stream-entry or once-returning is access concentration. This, of course, does not mean that stream-enterers and once-returners don't attain the jhaanas, but only that the standard doctrinal structure does not ascribe the jhaanas to them as essential equipment. ****** Notes 25. See, e.g., MN I 356; AN 10:8/V 11, etc. 26. AN III 285, etc.: Aya.m vuccati Mahaanaama ariyasaavako visamagataaya pajaaya samappatto viharati, savyaapajjhaaya pajaaya avyaapajjho viharati, dhammasota.m samaapanno buddhaanussati.m bhaaveti. 27. Ibid: Ujugatacitto kho pana Mahaanaama ariyasaavako labhati atthaveda.m labhati dhammaveda.m labhati dhammuupasa.mhita.m paamujja.m; pamuditassa piiti jaayati, piitimanassa kaayo passambhati; passaddhakaayo sukha.m vediyati; sukhino citta.m samaadhiyati. 34184 From: Herman Hofman Date: Sat Jun 26, 2004 5:19am Subject: Relationships Hi everyone, I've just gone blank. Is there such a thing as relationships between objects in Buddhism, and if there is, under what name does it go? This is prompted by listening to some music and the identification of musical intervals. F is a 4th from C, a sixth from A, that sort of thing. Regards Herman 34185 From: icarofranca Date: Sat Jun 26, 2004 5:26am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism. 83, Larry, Icaro typo: > Larry, ever forget the meaning ( you like mean so much, I see!) >--------------------------------------------------------------------- Larry thinks about mean every time... but the correct sentence is: "Larry, Never forget the meaning (you like mean so much, I see!) Mettaya, Ícaro 34186 From: Sujjhana Bhinnatta Date: Sat Jun 26, 2004 2:00am Subject: Re: Complication (was Re: Dustrags) Hello Philip, Sarah, Just some comments: ===== Ph:>And indeed, it is not so much the topic of conceit that > > interests me, but unnessary complication. We are bound to think > > conceptually - we need to to survive in the world- but should it be > > encouraged as a method of right understanding? B: I agree with Sarah in that I don't see the dustrag simile being discussed as an encouragement to think conceptually or to create some new idea in our heads of a dust rag. The teaching was about humility and forgiveness. Sariputta has attained stability in the midst of injustice, remaining equananimous and unmoved by it; Similar to how a dust rag collects disgusting filth without complaint. The dustrag is the finger pointing, not the moon itself. ===== Ph:> > It just seemed to me that the whole simile of the dustrag is > > unnecessarily complicated. If we have understanding of annata and >> the other characteristics - even intellectual knowledge - why not go > > straight there? Isn't giving rise to the simile of a dustrag a kind > > of papanca that we could avoid? B: What makes it a papanca is not so much in the rising of the dustrag simile, but the prior establishment of a "self/other" belief structure that causes manifold perceptions and categories based upon and growing out of this original duality. This erroneous thought process requires the need for the arising of the dustrag simile to point us back in the direction of "ultimate realities." Thus the utility of such simile becomes apparent, albeit not in complete accordance with paramattha-dhamma. > S: Of course there can be wise and unwise reflection (i.e papanca) of > anything including dustrags. If one has the idea that one should think of > oneself as a dustrag, it might be yet another ritual and definitely a kind > of papanca, I agree. B: As do I. Well put. ===== Ph:> I will want to learn a lot more about papanca. It seems to me > to be very, very important, judging only from the wee little bit I've > read about it. To what degree is it inevitable for worldlings, and > uncontrollable. At what point does it begin to die down? How do panna > and sati work to subdue papanca, if that's the right word? B: Self-reflexive thought, as papanca is sometimes translated, is in many ways what makes us worldings. When there is identification with this category of an experiencer there naturally follows attachment to pleasant feelings, aversion to painful feelings. This identification, we are taught, is what leads to desire and is what comes into conflict with the desires of others trapped within the papanca fold. The process is curttailed when one applies appropriate attention to feeling. If instead of feeding the cycle of attachment/aversion, we break it down and look at it as part of a causual process and identify what feelings lead to kusala and which to akusala, the whole system crumbles under the power of investigation. Feelings that lead to kusala can be pursued and refined to the point where the thought processes that lead to papanca are abandoned altogether in the higher states of jhana. Ph:> Don't we all love to spin out ideas? B: I think its the greatest kilesa of 'modern' man. Too tired to spin any more. May you all be clear sighted and free from affliction. Bhinnatta --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.708 / Virus Database: 464 - Release Date: 6/18/2004 34187 From: robmoult Date: Sat Jun 26, 2004 7:07am Subject: Re: Relationships Hi Herman, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Herman Hofman" wrote: > I've just gone blank. Is there such a thing as relationships between > objects in Buddhism, and if there is, under what name does it go? > > This is prompted by listening to some music and the identification of > musical intervals. F is a 4th from C, a sixth from A, that sort of > thing. Perhaps you mean "conditions" (paccaya)? The Abhidhamma describes the conditioning states (what triggers this condition to operate) and the conditioned states (what this condition operates upon). Metta, Rob M :-) 34188 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sat Jun 26, 2004 0:46pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Wheel sutta Dear Agrios, A: Hi Nina. > > Is there any way I could have the first two > Dhammacakkapavattana Sutta > Anattalakkhana Sutta > and whats third? Simsapa Sutta? > > in this, "interlinear" form? > Are they also availeble in MP3 as a Pali chant > somewhere? N: I am glad you are interested. On the Pali list we do the trilineair so that beginners profit. Do you prefer that? Word by word.In this way: yehi samannaagataana.m devamanussaana.m catucakka.m vattati, by which/ possessed/ for devas and men/ four wheels/ rolls and for devas and men who possess these, fourfold prosperity is rolling on. The suttas you mentioned are long, in Samyutta Nikaya. It was suggested by the Mod we do short suttas. So Connie and I selected short ones from the Anguttara Nikaya. I do not know about chanting, it is a good way to learn suttas by heart. Nina. 34189 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sat Jun 26, 2004 0:46pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Transfer of Merit Dear Rob M and friends, I remember I asked a. Sujin about this subject. She explained that these are just different degrees of results in accordance with the kammas that produced these. My conclusion: conventional names are given like hungry ghost, etc. or devas of different planes, etc. but never mind about all those names. I find it helpful to just think of the paramattha dhammas represented by those names. Those are the realities. Then there is no place for doubts. Nina op 25-06-2004 09:15 schreef robmoult op rob.moult@j...: > What I don't disbelieve is the various planes existing as described. > Specifically, is there really a hungry ghost plane where beings can > benefit from our wishing them well? My answer is, "I don't > disbelieve." 34190 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sat Jun 26, 2004 0:46pm Subject: Icaro, kaamavacara kusala cittas Dear Icaro, you refered to it that you before gave me the eight lobhamulacittas instead of kusala cittas. Please can you give me now the eight kamaavacaara kusala cittas. Next week Larry and I are at Vis. 84, and this deals with some of them. It is a good check for the reader to have them all once again. You can help me with kusala citta! Thanks, Nina. P.S. You watch cartoons and Lodewijk watches Duch soccer (against Sweden). I reminded him that he sees only colour and he said: he sees movement. I answered, no, movement is only through the bodysense, you cannot see it. Close your eyes, there is nothing at all. Open them, how can motion impinge on the eyesense. When you watch cartoons, there are many lobhamulacittas and also dosa mulacittas, but in between there may be kusala cittas with understanding of paramattha dhammas. 34191 From: icarofranca Date: Sat Jun 26, 2004 2:05pm Subject: Re: Icaro, kaamavacara kusala cittas Dear Nina: Please can you give me now the eight kamaavacaara kusala > cittas. Next week Larry and I are at Vis. 84, and this deals with some of > them. It is a good check for the reader to have them all once again. You can > help me with kusala citta! Thanks, ---------------------------------------------------------------------- I do love the Dhammasangani!!! You get the Kamaavacaara Kusala Cittas only here at my hand!!!! " Papahetukamuttani-Sobhanani´ti vuccare Ek´una satthicittani/ Ath´ekanavuti´pi va - attha Kamavacara Kusala Cittani: 1) somanassa-sahagatam anasampayuttam, asankharikam ekam 2)Somanassa-sahagatam anasampayuttam, sasankharikam ekam 3) somanassa -sahagatam anavippayuttam asankharikam ekam 4) somanassa-sahagatam anavippayutam sasankharikam ekam 5) Upekkhasahagatam anasampayuttam asankharikam ekam 6) Upekkhasahagatam anasampayuttam sasankharikam ekam 7) Upekkhasahagatam anavippayutam asankharikam ekam 8) Upekkhasahagatam anavippayutam sasankharikam ekam´ti Imani attha´pi Kamavacarakusalacittani nama" well, that´s it! the translation I will give you later soon!!! > Nina. > P.S. You watch cartoons and Lodewijk watches Duch soccer (against Sweden). Great Cartoon!!! --------------------------------------------------------------------- I > answered, no, movement is only through the bodysense, you cannot see it. > Close your eyes, there is nothing at all. Open them, how can motion impinge > on the eyesense. When you watch cartoons, there are many lobhamulacittas and > also dosa mulacittas, but in between there may be kusala cittas with > understanding of paramattha dhammas. --------------------------------------------------------------------- A scene of Rocky & Bullwinkle: (Rocky): What´s the lesson today ? Bullwinkle is a dope ? (Bullwinkle): Not that lesson!!! This lesson !!! ( Bullwinkle hits the blackboard, that begins to spin out, compounding an illusory image of a cartoon inside a cartoon!!! As you said, close your eyes, there´s nothing at all, open them and you get motion at eyesense) mettaya, Ícaro 34192 From: robmoult Date: Sat Jun 26, 2004 3:31pm Subject: Re: Icaro, kaamavacara kusala cittas Hi Nina, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > P.S. Lodewijk watches Duch soccer (against Sweden). I > reminded him that he sees only colour and he said: he sees movement. I > answered, no, movement is only through the bodysense, you cannot see it. > Close your eyes, there is nothing at all. Open them, how can motion impinge > on the eyesense. When you watch cartoons, there are many lobhamulacittas and > also dosa mulacittas, but in between there may be kusala cittas with > understanding of paramattha dhammas. Reading this note from you caused me to reflect on the Bhadraka Sutta (SN XVII.11). In this Sutta, the Buddha explained that craving is a source of suffering (dukkha). We experience dukkha when those to whom we are attached experience problems. We do not experience dukkha when those to whom we are not attached experience problems. Therefore, attachment is a cause of dukkha. I am not attached to soccer and I am not attached to either team, so whatever the outcome, I will not experience dukkha (that was before I read your message). When you mentioned that Lodewijk was watching the game, my perspective changed. Now I was attached to the Dutch side and I wanted them to win because I care about the temporary emotional state of one of their millions of fans. I was setting myself up for dukkha or an equally transitory sukha. We truly are our own worst enemies. Metta, Rob M :-) PS: I just checked the score; looks like it is sukha (at least this time). Please congratulate Lodewijk for me :-) 34193 From: Herman Hofman Date: Sat Jun 26, 2004 3:56pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Relationships Hi Rob, That's why I said I had gone blank :-). I thought of paccaya when I was ruminating, and couldn't see how paccaya could determine differences in pitch, or shades of anything. Perhaps you can help? Herman -----Original Message----- From: robmoult [mailto:rob.moult@j...] Sent: Sunday, 27 June 2004 12:07 AM To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Subject: [dsg] Re: Relationships Hi Herman, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Herman Hofman" wrote: > I've just gone blank. Is there such a thing as relationships between > objects in Buddhism, and if there is, under what name does it go? > > This is prompted by listening to some music and the identification of > musical intervals. F is a 4th from C, a sixth from A, that sort of > thing. Perhaps you mean "conditions" (paccaya)? The Abhidhamma describes the conditioning states (what triggers this condition to operate) and the conditioned states (what this condition operates upon). Metta, Rob M :-) 34194 From: robmoult Date: Sat Jun 26, 2004 3:58pm Subject: Re: Icaro, kaamavacara kusala cittas Hi Nina, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" wrote: > Hi Nina, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom > wrote: > > P.S. Lodewijk watches Duch soccer (against Sweden). I > > reminded him that he sees only colour and he said: he sees > movement. I > > answered, no, movement is only through the bodysense, you cannot > see it. > > Close your eyes, there is nothing at all. Open them, how can motion > impinge > > on the eyesense. When you watch cartoons, there are many > lobhamulacittas and > > also dosa mulacittas, but in between there may be kusala cittas with > > understanding of paramattha dhammas. > > Reading this note from you caused me to reflect on the Bhadraka Sutta > (SN XVII.11). In this Sutta, the Buddha explained that craving is a > source of suffering (dukkha). We experience dukkha when those to whom > we are attached experience problems. We do not experience dukkha when > those to whom we are not attached experience problems. Therefore, > attachment is a cause of dukkha. > ===== A further reflection on the same Sutta reminded me of another important point. At the beginning of this Sutta, Bhadraka the headman approaches the Buddha and asks the Buddha to explain the origination and ending of stress. The Buddha's reply is interesting: "Headman, if I were to teach you the origination & ending of stress with reference to the past, saying, 'Thus it was in the past,' you would be doubtful and perplexed. If I were to teach you the origination & ending of stress with reference to the future, saying, 'Thus it will be in the future,' you would be doubtful and perplexed. So instead, I -- sitting right here -- will teach you sitting right there the origination & ending of stress. Listen & pay close attention. I will speak." The Buddha seems to be saying that we can understand the origination and ending of stress by only considering the present. Nina, you recently posted a message to me on petas saying that your approach is to focus on the paramattha dhammas of the present and therefore the issue of petas (and planes of existence) is not a big issue for you. This reminds me of a story. Two monks were arguing: Monk 1: The Buddha taught about rebirth, so it is important to study and learn this topic. Monk 2: Rebirth is in the future. It is not in the present moment. The Buddha taught us to fix our mind in the present moment. Monk 1: We cannot agree, let's go see the abbot. Monk 1: The Buddha taught about rebirth, so it is important to study and learn this topic. Abbot: You are correct! Monk 2: Rebirth is in the future. It is not in the present moment. The Buddha taught us to fix our mind in the present moment. Abbot: You are correct! Monk 1 & Monk 2 (together): We can't both be correct! Abbot: You are correct! From this, I interpret that there are many aspects of the Buddha's teaching. Some will appeal to some students (because of their accumulations) and some will appeal to other students (because of their accumulations). As long as it is in the Suttas, we should judge it as valid teaching having value to some group of students. The Buddha made it clear that he did not include unnecessary stuff in his teaching. This is why I don't want to get drawn into the formal meditation argument. Metta, Rob M :-) 34195 From: robmoult Date: Sat Jun 26, 2004 4:16pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Relationships Hi Herman, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Herman Hofman" wrote: > That's why I said I had gone blank :-). I thought of paccaya when I was > ruminating, and couldn't see how paccaya could determine differences in > pitch, or shades of anything. > > Perhaps you can help? ===== Firstly, we must make sure that what we are talking about falls under the scope of the Buddha's teachings. Musical theory is clearly outside the scope. In the Simsapa Sutta (SN LVI.31), the Buddha explains the purpose of the teaching: "Why have I left [answers to speculative questions] undeclared? Because it is unbeneficial, it does not belong to the fundamentals of the holy life, it does not lead to disenchantment, to dispassion, to cessation, to peace, to direct knowledge, to enlightenment, to Nibbana. That is why I have left it undeclared. And what have I declared? 'This is suffering' - I have declared. 'This is the origin of suffering' - I have declared. 'This is the cessation of suffering' - I have declared. 'This is the way to the cessation of suffering' - I have declared. Why have I declared that? Because it is beneficial, it belongs to the fundamentals of the holy life, it leads to disenchantment, to dispassion, to cessation, to peace, to direct knowledge, to enlightenment, to Nibbana. That is why I have declared it." In the Abhidhammatthasangaha, the paccaya are grouped into six categories: - Mind as a condition for mind - Mind as a condition for mind-and-matter - Mind as a condition for matter - Matter as a condition for mind - Concepts and mind-and-matter as a condition for mind - Mind-and-matter as a condition for mind-and-matter The commentary (not the Suttas) add a term "niyama" to describe "laws of nature": - Utu-niyama governs temperature, seasons and other physical events - Bija-niyama governs plant life - Kamma-niyama - Citta-niyama governs the sequence of arising of cittas - Dhamma-niyama (other stuff such as the events that must occur in the life of a Buddha) I am not aware of any detailed discussion of the niyama in the canon. Does this help? Metta, Rob M :-) 34196 From: Herman Hofman Date: Sat Jun 26, 2004 4:17pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Icaro, kaamavacara kusala cittas Hi Nina, I know you don't like debating, this is just an expansion :-) You told Lodewijk he sees only colour (a sea of orange this time). But if that was the end of it, there would be no thought of motion. What is observed between seeing colour and thinking motion is seeing *change*. Now, it would interest me to read whether change is seen or thought. Hup Hup Holland Herman -----Original Message----- From: nina van gorkom [mailto:nilo@e...] Sent: Sunday, 27 June 2004 5:47 AM To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Subject: [dsg] Icaro, kaamavacara kusala cittas Dear Icaro, you refered to it that you before gave me the eight lobhamulacittas instead of kusala cittas. Please can you give me now the eight kamaavacaara kusala cittas. Next week Larry and I are at Vis. 84, and this deals with some of them. It is a good check for the reader to have them all once again. You can help me with kusala citta! Thanks, Nina. P.S. You watch cartoons and Lodewijk watches Duch soccer (against Sweden). I reminded him that he sees only colour and he said: he sees movement. I answered, no, movement is only through the bodysense, you cannot see it. Close your eyes, there is nothing at all. Open them, how can motion impinge on the eyesense. When you watch cartoons, there are many lobhamulacittas and also dosa mulacittas, but in between there may be kusala cittas with understanding of paramattha dhammas. 34197 From: Herman Hofman Date: Sat Jun 26, 2004 4:24pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Relationships Hi Rob, I know anicca is discussed an awful lot in the canon. So we can keep the discussion relevant to the forum. I think my question can be boiled down to the perception of change. Can/Does paccaya explain change in any phenomena, and the perception of that change? Thanks Herman -----Original Message----- From: robmoult [mailto:rob.moult@j...] Sent: Sunday, 27 June 2004 9:16 AM To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Subject: [dsg] Re: Relationships Hi Herman, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Herman Hofman" wrote: > That's why I said I had gone blank :-). I thought of paccaya when I was > ruminating, and couldn't see how paccaya could determine differences in > pitch, or shades of anything. > > Perhaps you can help? ===== Firstly, we must make sure that what we are talking about falls under the scope of the Buddha's teachings. Musical theory is clearly outside the scope. In the Simsapa Sutta (SN LVI.31), the Buddha explains the purpose of the teaching: "Why have I left [answers to speculative questions] undeclared? Because it is unbeneficial, it does not belong to the fundamentals of the holy life, it does not lead to disenchantment, to dispassion, to cessation, to peace, to direct knowledge, to enlightenment, to Nibbana. That is why I have left it undeclared. And what have I declared? 'This is suffering' - I have declared. 'This is the origin of suffering' - I have declared. 'This is the cessation of suffering' - I have declared. 'This is the way to the cessation of suffering' - I have declared. Why have I declared that? Because it is beneficial, it belongs to the fundamentals of the holy life, it leads to disenchantment, to dispassion, to cessation, to peace, to direct knowledge, to enlightenment, to Nibbana. That is why I have declared it." In the Abhidhammatthasangaha, the paccaya are grouped into six categories: - Mind as a condition for mind - Mind as a condition for mind-and-matter - Mind as a condition for matter - Matter as a condition for mind - Concepts and mind-and-matter as a condition for mind - Mind-and-matter as a condition for mind-and-matter The commentary (not the Suttas) add a term "niyama" to describe "laws of nature": - Utu-niyama governs temperature, seasons and other physical events - Bija-niyama governs plant life - Kamma-niyama - Citta-niyama governs the sequence of arising of cittas - Dhamma-niyama (other stuff such as the events that must occur in the life of a Buddha) I am not aware of any detailed discussion of the niyama in the canon. Does this help? Metta, Rob M :-) 34198 From: robmoult Date: Sat Jun 26, 2004 5:22pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Relationships Hi Herman, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Herman Hofman" wrote: > I know anicca is discussed an awful lot in the canon. So we can keep the > discussion relevant to the forum. I think my question can be boiled down > to the perception of change. Can/Does paccaya explain change in any > phenomena, and the perception of that change? Paccaya works at a more fundamental level than this. These conditions link paramattha dhammas with other paramattha dhammas (the exception being that certain strong past concepts can act as a conditioning state for the current mental state through natural decisive support condition). Let us consider the commentary to the Mulapariyaya Sutta (Mn 1). This Sutta explains the difference in patterns of thought between the uninstructed worldling (that's us), the learner (Sotapanna, Sakadagami, Anagami), the Arahant and the Buddha. According to this Sutta, the thinking process of the uninstructed worldling gets all messed up "because he has not fully understood". The commentary explains that "fully understanding" involves three progressive stages: - the full understanding of the known (nataparinna): gross object is broken into paramattha dhammas and the distinct characteristic, function, manifestation and proximate cause are known - the full understanding of scrutinization (tiranaparinna): the paramattaha dhammas are investigated in terms of the three general characterisitics (tilakkhana) of anicca, dukkha and anatta - the full understanding of abandoning (pahanaparinna): the desire and lust for objects of congnition are eliminated Note that the three general characterisitics (anicca, dukkha, anatta) are not paramattha dhammas. Therefore they are not conditioned according to paccaya. If you are talking about perception of change (such as players moving about on the soccer pitch) then this is completely different from a perception of anicca. If you are asking about what are the conditions for the perception of anicca, by quick answer (I am running out to teach my class) is the seven factors of enlightenment (bojjhanga): - Mindfulness - Investigation - Energy - Rapture - Tranquillity - Concentration - Equanimity Metta, Rob M :-) 34199 From: icarofranca Date: Sat Jun 26, 2004 5:22pm Subject: Re: Icaro, kaamavacara kusala cittas Dear Nina: (Narrator voice at VOYAGER episodes): "And now, the conclusion" Translating the Kamaavacaara Kusala Suttas we get: > Ath´ekanavuti´pi va - attha Kamavacara Kusala Cittani: Eight Types of Moral Consciousness of the sensuous sphere > > 1) somanassa-sahagatam anasampayuttam, asankharikam ekam 1) one consciousness, unprompted, accompained with pleasure, and connected with knowledge > 2)Somanassa-sahagatam anasampayuttam, sasankharikam ekam 2) one consciousness, prompted, accompained with pleasure, and connected with knowledge > 3) somanassa -sahagatam anavippayuttam asankharikam ekam 3) one consciousness, unprompted, accompained with pleasure, and no-connected with knowledge > 4) somanassa-sahagatam anavippayutam sasankharikam ekam 4) one consciousness, prompted, accompained with pleasure, and no-connected with knowledge > 5) Upekkhasahagatam anasampayuttam asankharikam ekam 5) one consciousness, unprompted, accompained with indifference, and connected with knowledge > 6) Upekkhasahagatam anasampayuttam sasankharikam ekam 6) one consciousness, prompted, accompained with indifference, and connected with knowledge > 7) Upekkhasahagatam anavippayutam asankharikam ekam 7) one consciousness, unprompted, accompained with indifference, and no-connected with knowledge > 8) Upekkhasahagatam anavippayutam sasankharikam ekam´ti 8) one consciousness, prompted, accompained with indifference, and no-connected with knowledge > > Imani attha´pi Kamavacarakusalacittani nama" Now Good Rob M and Herman can handle a candle for me...HAHAHAHAH!!!!! Mettaya, Ícaro