34200 From: icarofranca Date: Sat Jun 26, 2004 5:43pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Relationships Dear Rob M > The commentary explains that "fully understanding" involves three > progressive stages: > - the full understanding of the known (nataparinna): gross object is > broken into paramattha dhammas and the distinct characteristic, > function, manifestation and proximate cause are known > - the full understanding of scrutinization (tiranaparinna): the > paramattaha dhammas are investigated in terms of the three general > characterisitics (tilakkhana) of anicca, dukkha and anatta > - the full understanding of abandoning (pahanaparinna): the desire > and lust for objects of congnition are eliminated > > Note that the three general characterisitics (anicca, dukkha, anatta) > are not paramattha dhammas. Therefore they are not conditioned > according to paccaya. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Exact!!! there were some discussion in some posts about it: if either Dukkha, anicca and Anatta were Paramattha Dhammas or not. the last issue about the matter suggests that even the Paramattha Dhammas lies only at an intellective discourse level of understanding and that could be abandoned at the end of the road. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > If you are talking about perception of change (such as players moving > about on the soccer pitch) then this is completely different from a > perception of anicca. > > If you are asking about what are the conditions for the perception of > anicca, by quick answer (I am running out to teach my class) is the > seven factors of enlightenment (bojjhanga): > - Mindfulness > - Investigation > - Energy > - Rapture > - Tranquillity > - Concentration > - Equanimity ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Well posed as usual, RobMoult !!! mettaya, Ícaro 34201 From: agriosinski Date: Sat Jun 26, 2004 9:55pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Wheel sutta --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: [...] > N: I am glad you are interested. On the Pali list we do the trilineair so > that beginners profit. Do you prefer that? Word by word.In this way: > yehi samannaagataana.m devamanussaana.m catucakka.m vattati, > by which/ possessed/ for devas and men/ four wheels/ rolls > and for devas and men who possess these, fourfold prosperity is rolling on. That would be just perfect. Where is this Pali list? > The suttas you mentioned are long, in Samyutta Nikaya. It was suggested by > the Mod we do short suttas. So Connie and I selected short ones from the > Anguttara Nikaya. > I do not know about chanting, it is a good way to learn suttas by heart. > Nina. This is my intention :) Are you having one of these supernatural powers? ;) metta, Agrios 34202 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Jun 26, 2004 11:50pm Subject: The Jhaanas and the Lay Disciple According to the Paali Suttas (13) The Jhaanas and the Lay Disciple According to the Paali Suttas Ven. Bhikkhu Bodhi The Stream-enterer and Jhaana (3) (4) Nor does the above sutta imply that a lay stream-enterer must remain content merely with excursions into access concentration and cannot develop the higher wisdom of insight. To the contrary, the Buddha includes the higher wisdom among the five excellent qualities he regularly ascribes to noble lay disciples: faith, virtue, learning, generosity, and wisdom.[28] In several suttas of the Sotaapatti-sa.myutta, generosity and wisdom even replace virtue as the fourth factor of stream-entry, faith being included by "confirmed confidence" in the Three Jewels.[29] We should note that we do not find among these qualities any mention of samaadhi or a formula for the jhaanas. Yet we see that wisdom is defined in exactly the same terms used to define the wisdom of a monk in training (sekha). It is "the noble wisdom that discerns the arising and passing away of things, that is noble and penetrative and leads to the complete destruction of suffering."[30] Since the lay stream-enterer or once-returner is thus well equipped with the wisdom of insight but is not typically described as a jhaana attainer, this implies that attainment of jhaana is not normally expected or required of him. From this we can also conclude that at these early stages of the path liberative wisdom does not depend on a supporting base of jhaana. (5) A text in the Sotaapatti-sa.myutta gives credit to this conclusion. At SN 55:40/V 398-99, the Buddha explains to the Sakyan Nandiya how a noble disciple dwells diligently (ariyasaavako appamaadavihaarii). He says that a noble disciple should not become complacent about possessing the four factors of stream-entry but should use these qualities as starting points for contemplation: "He is not content with his confirmed confidence in the Buddha (etc.), but strives further in seclusion by day and in retreat by night. As he dwells diligently, gladness arises ... (as above) ... for one who is happy the mind becomes concentrated. When the mind is concentrated, phenomena become manifest. It is with the manifestation of phenomena to him that he is reckoned as 'one who dwells diligently.'"[31] The expression "manifestation of phenomena" (dhammaana.m paatubhaava) indicates that the disciple is engaged in contemplating the rise and fall of the five aggregates, the six sense bases, and so forth. Thus this passage shows how the disciple proceeds from concentration to insight, but it does not describe this concentration in terms suggesting it occurs at the level of jhaana. Since the sequence switches over from concentration to insight without mentioning jhaana, it seems that the concentration attained will be tantamount to access concentration, not jhaana, yet even this suffices to support the arising of insight. ****** Notes 28. Saddhaa, siila, suta, caaga, pa--aa. Sometimes learning is omitted, since this is not as integral to the ariyan character as the other four qualities. 29. See SN 55:32-33, 42-43; V 391-92, 401-2. 30. Udayatthagaaminiyaa pa--aaya samannaagato ariyaaya nibbedhikaaya sammaadukkhakkhaya-gaaminiyaa. 31. SN V 398-99: Idha Nandiya ariyasaavako Buddhe aveccappasaadena samannaagato hoti ... So tena Buddhe aveccappasaadena asantu.t.tho uttari.m vaayamati divaa pavivekaaya ratti.m pa.tisallaanaaya. Tassa eva.m appamattassa viharato paamujja.m jaayati ... sukhino citta.m samaadhiyati. Samaahite citte dhammaa paatubhavanti. Dhammaana.m paatubhaavaa appamaadavihaarii tveva sa,nkha.m gacchati.... Eva.m kho Nandiya ariyasaavako appamaadavihaarii hoti. 34203 From: Herman Hofman Date: Sun Jun 27, 2004 1:57am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Relationships Hi Rob, Some more questions follow from what you have written. ================================================ R> Paccaya works at a more fundamental level than this. These conditions link paramattha dhammas with other paramattha dhammas (the exception being that certain strong past concepts can act as a conditioning state for the current mental state through natural decisive support condition). Let us consider the commentary to the Mulapariyaya Sutta (Mn 1). This Sutta explains the difference in patterns of thought between the uninstructed worldling (that's us), the learner (Sotapanna, Sakadagami, Anagami), the Arahant and the Buddha. According to this Sutta, the thinking process of the uninstructed worldling gets all messed up "because he has not fully understood". The commentary explains that "fully understanding" involves three progressive stages: - the full understanding of the known (nataparinna): gross object is broken into paramattha dhammas and the distinct characteristic, function, manifestation and proximate cause are known - the full understanding of scrutinization (tiranaparinna): the paramattaha dhammas are investigated in terms of the three general characterisitics (tilakkhana) of anicca, dukkha and anatta - the full understanding of abandoning (pahanaparinna): the desire and lust for objects of congnition are eliminated ====================================================== H> When you write that gross object is broken into paramattha dhammas, and the function, manifestation and proximate cause are known, are you referring to the function etc of the gross object, or of the paramattha dhamma. Clearly different combinations of elements can have functions and qualities not found in the elements themselves. The pile of chariot bits cannot be known as a means of transport, neither can hydrogen or oxygen singly be known for their liquidity. Recently there was some discussion about the body as a series of tubes. Clearly, tubes can function very differently from whatever goes to make up the tubes. ===================================================== R> Note that the three general characterisitics (anicca, dukkha, anatta) are not paramattha dhammas. Therefore they are not conditioned according to paccaya. If you are talking about perception of change (such as players moving about on the soccer pitch) then this is completely different from a perception of anicca. ===================================================== H> Are you here asking me to note a certain definition of the three general characteristics, or are you asking me to observe something observable and common to all observable dhammas in general? Also, would you be so kind as to explain how the perception of change is different to the perception of anicca? ===================================================== I hope you learned something in class today :-) Herman Metta, Rob M :-) 34204 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Jun 27, 2004 2:54am Subject: corrections wheel sutta Dear Sarah, A very kind Bhante is helping me on the Pali list with the Wheel sutta and has some suggestions and corrections. But I still have problems to be solved. I do not know whether you can wait having this sutta put into the archives. I do not know how it all works, but I understand that corrections later on are always difficult to add. I wish you both a very good trip with your mother, near Zermatt?. Nina. 34205 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Jun 27, 2004 2:54am Subject: Re: [dsg] Qu. Tiika Vis. 83 Hi Larry, op 26-06-2004 03:16 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > Does kusala citta accompanied by equanimity necessarily have a desirable > object? N: As I translated in the Tiika 83: From this we can conclude that the object can also be undesirable. Kusala citta can have a desirable object or undesirable object. See the many suttas, where there can, in the case of such objects, be wise attention or unwise attention. See further comments below. L: Another question: if panna contemplating dukkha is accompanied by joy > then the object must be the insight itself, correct? N: when pañña contemplates dukkha, it contemplates the dukkha *of* a nama or a rupa, not dukkha tout court. It realizes their dukkha nature. It can be accompanied by joy or by indifferent feeling, depending on conditions. It can be any nama or rupa that appears, thus also pañña but not necessarily so. I do not see the connection between joy and insight itself. L: Can wisdom be prompted?> N: Yes, any kind of kaamaavacara kusala is prompted or unprompted. In Vis. 84 more is said. And in my Intro I shall mention it again. The Co to Abhidhammattha Sangaha says more. I just quote part: Further on it speaks about hesitatingly with restricted generosity... One's former accumulations play their part. Generosity may not be strong, due to accumulations, or rather, the lack of it. A complicated subject and this Co gives more interpretations whether it is to be seen as from what is preceding or from the point of view of the moment. The Atth speaks about the totality of causes. It also gives many examples of each of the ten puññakiriyavatthu, meritorious deeds. Prompted/unprompted tells us something about the quality of the kusala citta, but it is hard to know as to oneself. We can know roughly, by inference, by reasoning later on. That goes for desirable object, for the feeling, for: with pañña or without it. There are so many cittas and we can easily confuse them. Say, I explain with joy Abhidhamma to others, but this is not kusala joy all the time. How easily can lobha with or without conceit arise, also accompanied by joy. Only developed insight can know precisely. And again, not without foregoing a deeper knowledge of the characteristics of nama and rupa. Desirable object: who can know, the cittas are so fast. Objects through the sensedoors and the mind-door just appearing for a moment, rapidly changing. There can be compassion when someonbe suffers. He has a bad smell. At first aversion may arise, and then? We may think of the Buddha, his Dhamma and the citta changes already. Is the object still smell? Or once again smell but now with right attention? How could we point out all this? Not without developing insight that has precise understanding of the dhamma appearing right then and there. The more I reflect, the more complex I find this subject. Nina. 34206 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Jun 27, 2004 3:37am Subject: Re: [dsg] The Jhaanas and the Lay Disciple According to the Paali Suttas (14) The Jhaanas and the Lay Disciple According to the Paali Suttas Ven. Bhikkhu Bodhi When Do the Jhaanas Become Necessary? (1) While there seem to be no suttas that impose an inflexible rule to the effect that a lay noble disciple must possess the jhaanas, there are at least two texts that explicitly ascribe all four jhaanas to certain householders. One, found in the Citta-sa.myutta (SN 41:9/IV 300-2), features Citta the householder, the foremost lay preacher, in a conversation with a naked ascetic named Kassapa. Kassapa was an old friend of Citta who had embraced the life of renunciation thirty years earlier, and this is apparently their first meeting since that time. Kassapa confesses to Citta that in all these years he has not achieved any "superhuman distinction in knowledge and vision befitting the noble ones" (uttarimanussadhammaa alamariya--aa.nadassanavisesa); all he does is go about naked, with a shaved head, using a feather brush to sweep his seat. He then asks Citta whether, as a lay disciple of the Buddha, he has reached any distinguished attainments. Citta says that he has, and then declares his ability to enter and dwell in the four jhaanas (he uses the standard formula). To this he adds: "Further, if I were to die before the Blessed One, it would not be surprising if the Blessed One would declare of me: 'There is no fetter bound by which Citta the householder might come back to this world.'"[32] Through this bit of coded text, partly a stock formulation, Citta is informing his friend that he is a non-returner with access to the four jhaanas. The other sutta is AN 7:50/IV 66-67 and concerns the lay woman Nandamaataa. In the presence of the Venerable Saariputta and other monks, Nandamaataa has been disclosing the seven wonderful and marvellous qualities with which she is endowed. The sixth of these is possession of the four jhaanas, again described by the stock formula. The seventh is as follows: "As to the five lower fetters taught by the the Blessed One, I do not see among them any as yet unabandoned in myself."[33] This too is a coded way of declaring her status as a non-returner. ****** Notes 32. Spk IV 301: Sace kho pan'aaha.m bhante Bhagavato pa.thamatara.m kaala.m kareyya anacchariya.m kho pan'eta.m ya.m ma.m Bhagavaa eta.m vyaakareyya, Natthi ta.m sa--ojana.m yena sa--ojanena sa.myutto Citto gahapati puna ima.m loka.m aagaccheyyaa ti. 33. AN IV 67: Yaaniimaani bhante Bhagavataa desitaani pa-c'orambhaagiyaani sa.myojanaani, naaha.m tesa.m ki-ci attani appahiina.m samanupassaamii ti. 34207 From: jonoabb Date: Sun Jun 27, 2004 5:50am Subject: [dsg] Re:Dhamma practice. Hi, Nina Thanks for your comments. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > Hi Jon, > I would like to add something to your excellent analysis. > It is very necessary to develop all good qualities such as the perfections, > in alternation with satipatthana. We have many defilements accumulated and > thus, we need all possibly help we can, we should not neglect any means to > weaken defilements on our long, long journey. The Brahmaviharas, for > example, help very much in our everyday social life, and these can be > together with satipatthana. During all those moments we are thinking of > persons (we do anyway) the brahmaviharas are most helpful for kusala in > thought, speech and action. So, practice in accordance with the dhamma as > you explained the other day, also includes the development of all good > qualities. As A. Sujin often remarks, they are all accumulated as > sankharakkhandha and will eventually bear fruit. Yes, so much of our day is spent in contact with, or thinking of, other persons, and if at such moments there is not one or other of the Brahma-viharas then the citta is bound to be akusala. This is a rather sobering realization, for me at least. It makes me realise how strong in fact are the accumulated tendencies for akusala and how weak for kusala. > You quoted with reference to practice in accordance with the > dhamma:<"Bhikkhus, when a bhikkhu is practising in accordance with the > Dhamma, > this is what accords with the dhamma: he should dwell engrossed in > revulsion towards form, feeling, perception, volitional formations, and > consciousness.> When we read about revulsion, we can think of renunciation, > nekkhamma, and not just with reference to the bhikkhu life. Through > Satipatthana there will be detachment from the khandhas, but also each form > of kusala is actually renunciation. You renounce your own selfishness. This > should really appear in our personal life and in our social contacts. This > is difficult but we can develop it very gradually. It is useful to see this sort of connection between different parts of the teachings (satipatthana and the perfections). Seeing the teachings in its different aspects helps us get a better understanding of the Buddha's message. > We can develop good qualities not with a desire to have more sati, and not > because we have to follow a rule, then the purpose is not right, we are > still clinging to self. The goal should be to have less defilements. The > development of all kinds of kusala makes us less neglectful, less > forgetful, and on the other hand, satipatthana conditions the development of > them. Through satipatthana there will be less inclination to perform kusala > . Yes, purity of purpose is important. Of course, it is inevitable that there will be a lot of the idea of performing kusala for our own sake, but over time and with honesty towards oneself such moments can also be seen more clearly for what they are. Thanks very much for these comments and reminders. Jon 34208 From: jonoabb Date: Sun Jun 27, 2004 6:08am Subject: Re: [dsg] oral tradition Hi, Herman I'm rather late coming in here, but not too late, i hope. ;-)) ---- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Herman Hofman" wrote: ... > I am happy that you are satisfied that you have a very accurate record > of what was said, but I feel no such assurance. But, happily, I do not > think it is that important an issue. ... > The value of each teaching, to me, lies not in its historical > authenticity. A teaching comes to life when, on following its advice, it > gives rise to the fruit it said it would. If the following of a teaching gives rise to the fruit that it said it would, then that would tend to demonstrate the accuracy of the teaching as recorded. Authenticity and accuracy are important, in my view, because without a reliable external guide one is left to rely on one's own innate understanding, which means in effect that one is governed by wrong view. But of course nothing should ever be 'taken on faith', even where accuracy is (reasonably) assumed. On the other hand, where by following the advice of a teaching one has come to understand something of value confidence then it is surely only appropriate for that to be acknowledged. I have noticed that some people seem to take the view that what they have learnt from contact with the teachings is pretty much self-evident and would have been realised in due course anyway, or even that what they have learnt has in fact been self-discovered and that the teachings are little more than a handy point of reference serving to confirm the extent of their ongoing development. They are inclined to play down the role of the teachings in what they have come to understand. Jon 34209 From: icarofranca Date: Sun Jun 27, 2004 6:13am Subject: [dsg] Re: Wheel sutta Dear Agriosinski: > That would be just perfect. > Where is this Pali list? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- You can gather up all Pali information in many sources on net. One of my favourite ones is the www.tipitaka.org, where you´ll find all Pali tipitaka, complete and unabridged, with the Tiikas, or commentaries , included. Other source that can be useful is the material on www.metta.lk, that´s included besides all tipitaka many pali texts on poetry, classical grammar and rethorics. if you are learned on german language ( not my business, I can guarantee you!) you´ll find on Web the classical Visuddhimagga complete on these language. Differences ? The texts on www.tipitaka.org is more readable than www.metta.lk´s... but you first must download the Pali fonts ; Norman, velthius or others, to best reading! --------------------------------------------------------------------- > This is my intention :) > Are you having one of these supernatural powers? > ;) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- I´ve got many Dudley Do-right and Rocky & Bullwinkle cartoon episodes recorded on VHS...but is not pali canonical at all!!!! Mettaya, Ícaro 34210 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Jun 27, 2004 6:26am Subject: Re: ¦^ÂСGRe: ¦^ÂСG[dsg] Re: Liberated in bothways(was, ¦^ÂСG?^???G...) Dear Tungkuen --- Mr Tzung-Kuen Wen wrote: > Dear jon ... > According to the definition of Ubhatobhagavimutta in commentaries, > perhaps those ariyas who attain the formless attainments only after > their achievement of arahantship could also be called as ¡¥liberated in > both ways¡¦ > > Sv vol. 2 p.104; vol. 3 p.72: > Ubhatobhaagavimuttoti dviihi bhaagehi vimutto, aruupasamaapattiyaa > ruupakaayato vimutto, maggena naamakaayato vimuttoti. > > ¡¥Ubhatobhaagavimutto¡¦ is ¡¥one liberated from two parts¡¦, one > liberated from both the assembly of body by formless attainments and the > assembly of mind by the [consciousness of] Path. > > In Sv-pt vol. 3 p. 72, three definitions are given: > > 1. Samaapattiyaa vikkhambhanavimokkhena, maggena samucchedavimokkhena > vimuttattaa ubhatobhaagavimutto > 2. Naamakaayato, ruupakaayato ca vimuttattaa ubhatobhaagavimutto > 3. samaapattiyaa vikhambhanavimokkhena ekavaaram. Vimuttova maggena > samucchedavimokkhena ekavaaram vimuttattaa ubhatobhaagavimutto > > 1. Because one is liberated in the form of both the liberation of > ¡¥oppression by [formless] attainments¡¦ and the liberation of > ¡¥abolishment by the Path¡¦, he is one liberated in both ways. ¡K > 2. Because one is liberated from the assembly of body and mind, he is > one liberated in both ways. ¡K > 3. Because one is on one occasion liberated in the form of the > liberation of oppression by [formless] attainments ,and on another > occasion liberated in the form of the liberation of abolishment by the > Path, he is one liberated in both ways. > > Nevertheless, it's true that the commentaries mention clearly only 5 > types of Ubhatobhagavimutta. I am inclined to think that the term 'liberated-in-both-ways' is meant to describe the circumstances under which final enlightenment has been attained. The implication is, I think, that final enlightenment with the formless attainments as basis is a superior class of final enlightenment, and the person who so becomes enlightened is a superior class of being. The arahant who can also attain the formless attainments but for whom those attainments did not form the basis for the attainment of arahantship, is not a superior class of being in the same sense. His liberation as an arahant was in one way only. The liberation he may experience from time to time by virtue of the formless attainments only occurs at actual moments of experiencing those attainments. Just my thoughts, but I haven't studied the relevant texts in the detail you have! Jon 34211 From: Philip Date: Sun Jun 27, 2004 7:50am Subject: Wisdom and the factors of enlightenment (was([dsg] Re: Relationships Hello Rob, and all The following is from Rob, in the "relationships" thread: > If you are asking about what are the conditions for the perception of > anicca, by quick answer (I am running out to teach my class) is the > seven factors of enlightenment (bojjhanga): > - Mindfulness > - Investigation > - Energy > - Rapture > - Tranquillity > - Concentration > - Equanimity Ph: It occured to me to ask/wonder how wisdom (panna) wouldn't be a factor of enlightenmnt. Would panna arise with the arising of factors alone or in certain combinations? Wisdom *is* one of the five faculties. (strengths?) I know for example that confidence/faith had best arise together with wisdom. But what is the relationship between wisdom and the factors of enlightenment? Thank you, as always. Very grateful for all the guidance I'm receiving from DSG. Metta, Phil 34212 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Jun 27, 2004 0:18pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:dukkha and soccer. Hi Rob M, Thanks for your posts, good for reflection. op 27-06-2004 00:31 schreef robmoult op rob.moult@j...: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom > wrote: >> P.S. Lodewijk watches Duch soccer (against Sweden).... > > Reading this note from you caused me to reflect on the Bhadraka Sutta > (SN XVII.11). In this Sutta, the Buddha explained that craving is a > source of suffering (dukkha). We experience dukkha when those to whom > we are attached experience problems. We do not experience dukkha when > those to whom we are not attached experience problems. Therefore, > attachment is a cause of dukkha. > > I am not attached to soccer and I am not attached to either team, so > whatever the outcome, I will not experience dukkha (that was before I > read your message). N: Dukkha has so many meanings here you mean: unpleasant feeling I think. I do not like the transl. of ATI: stress. Same ideas about soccer as you, no time, but I saw the very end and like this. I can appreciate good quality in sports. You said: we are attached experience problems. We do not experience dukkha when > those to whom we are not attached experience problems. Therefore, > attachment is a cause of dukkha.> The last sentence has a different meaning, it pertains to the dukkha of being in the cycle, not to unpleasant feeling or what we call suffering. As to the first case: there can be equanimity when we see the uselessness of unpleasant feeling and of aversion about what cannot be changed. But how difficult! R: When you mentioned that Lodewijk was watching the > game, my perspective changed. Now I was attached to the Dutch side > and I wanted them to win because I care about the temporary emotional > state of one of their millions of fans. I was setting myself up for > dukkha or an equally transitory sukha. We truly are our own worst > enemies. ;-)) > PS: I just checked the score; looks like it is sukha (at least this > time). Please congratulate Lodewijk for me :-) N: ;-)) He thanks you for your kind interest. It is only quarter finals, still a long way to the finals. Nina. 34213 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Jun 27, 2004 0:18pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Icaro, kaamavacara kusala cittas Dear Icaro, thank you, that is your kusala citta. Only the Pali symbols: anasampayuttam should be: ñaa.nasampayutta.m We should get the correct signs of Velthuis for Email. Nina. op 27-06-2004 02:22 schreef icarofranca op icarofranca@y...: > > >> Ath´ekanavuti´pi va - attha Kamavacara Kusala Cittani: > > Eight Types of Moral Consciousness of the sensuous sphere >> >> 1) somanassa-sahagatam anasampayuttam, asankharikam ekam > 1) one consciousness, unprompted, accompained with pleasure, > and connected with knowledge > >> 2)Somanassa-sahagatam anasampayuttam, sasankharikam ekam > 2) one consciousness, prompted, accompained with pleasure, > and connected with knowledge > >> 3) somanassa -sahagatam anavippayuttam asankharikam ekam > 3) one consciousness, unprompted, accompained with pleasure, > and no-connected with knowledge > >> 4) somanassa-sahagatam anavippayutam sasankharikam ekam > 4) one consciousness, prompted, accompained with pleasure, > and no-connected with knowledge > >> 5) Upekkhasahagatam anasampayuttam asankharikam ekam > 5) one consciousness, unprompted, accompained with > indifference, and connected with knowledge > >> 6) Upekkhasahagatam anasampayuttam sasankharikam ekam > 6) one consciousness, prompted, accompained with > indifference, and connected with knowledge > >> 7) Upekkhasahagatam anavippayutam asankharikam ekam > 7) one consciousness, unprompted, accompained with > indifference, and no-connected with knowledge > >> 8) Upekkhasahagatam anavippayutam sasankharikam ekam´ti > 8) one consciousness, prompted, accompained with > indifference, and no-connected with knowledge >> >> Imani attha´pi Kamavacarakusalacittani nama" 34214 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Jun 27, 2004 0:18pm Subject: Re: [dsg]seeing or thinking change? Hi Herman, op 27-06-2004 01:17 schreef Herman Hofman op hhofman@t...: > I know you don't like debating, this is just an expansion :-) N: Very good, you understand me. H: You told Lodewijk he sees only colour (a sea of orange this time). But > if that was the end of it, there would be no thought of motion. > > What is observed between seeing colour and thinking motion is seeing > *change*. Now, it would interest me to read whether change is seen or > thought. N: Thought. See my post to Icaro. H: Hup Hup Holland N: How thoughtful, that is your Dutch heart. Nina. 34215 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Jun 27, 2004 0:18pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Wheel sutta Dear Agrios, Just now I have an exchange with a Bhante about the sutta, as I wrote to Sarah. I am no good at learning by heart, but sometimes I try. op 27-06-2004 06:55 schreef agriosinski op agriosinski@y...: > > That would be just perfect. > Where is this Pali list? [Send Message] pali@yahoogroups.com Nina. 34216 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Jun 27, 2004 0:18pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Icaro, kaamavacara kusala cittas Dear Icaro, op 26-06-2004 23:05 schreef icarofranca op icarofranca@y...: > (Rocky): What´s the lesson today ? Bullwinkle is a dope ? > (Bullwinkle): Not that lesson!!! This lesson !!! ( Bullwinkle hits > the blackboard, that begins to spin out, compounding an illusory > image of a cartoon inside a cartoon!!! As you said, close your eyes, > there´s nothing at all, open them and you get motion at eyesense) N: Ah, no. No motion at eyesense. Only colour or visible object. You seem to see people moving, but that is thinking of the whole story, caused by many different moments of seeing and all the while sañña, the cetasika remembrance, marking such moments so that there can be remembrance of people or things moving. Oscillation, motion or pressure appear through bodysense, while touching. The whole day, it is good to get to know those characteristics when they appear. I am reminded of something you said: so embarrassing to speak about your own experiences. I can feel with you, but it depends on the context. These can be seen as just dhammas, and can be used as illustrations and reminders of dhamma. We spoke about transfer of merit. Now this is also to living people, not just to those who passed away. Say, if you tell us about some kusala you did today (collecting texts for me), you do not hide your kusala but give others the opportunity to rejoice with kusala citta in your kusala. That is the meaning of transfer of merit. Not literally transferring. For Westerners this is difficult, they think it is showing off telling others about your kusala, or conceit. But no, it depends on the citta, when told with kusala citta it is dana. But we are a mixture of kusala and akusala and soon akusala citta can arise. So, can you tell me about some kusala you did today? Nina. 34217 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Jun 27, 2004 0:18pm Subject: Perseverance in Dhamma, Ch 6, no 5 Perseverance in Dhamma, Ch 6, no 5 The second Application of Mindfulness is the Contemplation on Feeling. One moment we have great anxiety and sadness and this is accompanied by unhappy feeling, and the next moment there can very quickly be a change to pleasant feeling when we laugh about something, even about our worries. Feelings change before we can do anything about them, they are beyond control. It is very difficult to be aware precisely of feeling. The Abhidhamma is very precise, but we usually think of a mixture of many phenomena, bodily and mental. Through the Abhidhamma we can have a basic knowledge of the different processes of cittas that experience different objects and that each have appropriate conditions for their arising. It is important to know that seeing arises in one process of cittas and thinking in another process and that they experience different objects, and also, that on account of these experiences different feelings arise. The understanding of conditions will make it clearer that feelings are non-self. We should pay attention to the third Application of Mindfulness that includes all kinds of cittas arising now: kusala citta, akusala citta, indeterminate citta. The first citta that is mentioned is citta with attachment. We should not neglect akusala citta as object of mindfulness. We take akusala citta as well as kusala citta for self, but they arise because of their own conditions. It is natural that kusala cittas and akusala cittas are alternating in our relationship with others. Through the Abhidhamma we learn that detachment accompanies each kusala citta. When we are generous, when we try to help someone else, we should have no preferences for specific people and we should not expect any kindness, any recognition in return. This means that we need equanimity and renunciation or detachment all the time. Through satipatthåna we come to know the different cittas that arise. Mindfulness of citta is a condition for beginning to distinguish kusala citta and akusala citta. However, we should not forget that the stages of insight develop in a specific order. The first stage of insight is knowing nåma as nåma and rúpa as rúpa, and before this stage arises kusala and akusala cannot be clearly realized as nåma and thus their different characteristics cannot yet be precisely known. ***** Nina 34218 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Jun 27, 2004 0:18pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: rebirths. Hi Rob M, op 27-06-2004 00:58 schreef robmoult op rob.moult@j...: > At the beginning of this Sutta, Bhadraka the headman > approaches the Buddha and asks the Buddha to explain the origination > and ending of stress. The Buddha's reply is interesting...: > > The Buddha seems to be saying that we can understand the origination > and ending of stress by only considering the present. N: This sutta points to satipatthana: know the presently arisen dhamma. How otherwise can we understand the dukkha nature of the nama or rupa that appears. R: Nina, you recently posted a message to me on petas saying that your > approach is to focus on the paramattha dhammas of the present and > therefore the issue of petas (and planes of existence) is not a big > issue for you. > > This reminds me of a story. Two monks were arguing: ... > Monk 1 & Monk 2 (together): We can't both be correct! > Abbot: You are correct! N: It shows the futility of arguing and debating. I like it less and less. Would rather study texts. R: From this, I interpret that there are many aspects of the Buddha's > teaching. Some will appeal to some students (because of their > accumulations) and some will appeal to other students (because of > their accumulations). As long as it is in the Suttas, we should judge > it as valid teaching having value to some group of students. The > Buddha made it clear that he did not include unnecessary stuff in his > teaching. N: I agree. Perhaps the reality is worse than described as birth in hell planes. R: This is why I don't want to get drawn into the formal meditation > argument. N: It is so delicate! Depends on time, place, occasion. I just like to point out that there are two kinds of jhana: meditation on the subjects of samatha, and contemplation of the three characteristics in vipassana. For both: a lot of pañña is needed. Nina. 34219 From: Date: Sun Jun 27, 2004 4:35pm Subject: Vism.XIV 84 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) Ch. XIV 84. (1) When a man is happy on encountering an excellent gift to be given, or recipient, etc., or some such cause for joy, and by placing right view foremost that occurs in the way beginning 'There is [merit in] giving' (M.i,288), he unhesitatingly and unurged by others performs such merit as giving, etc., then his consciousness is 'accompanied by joy', 'associated with knowledge', and 'unprompted'. (2) But when a man is happy and content in the way aforesaid, and, while placing right view foremost, yet he does it hesitantly through lack of free generosity, etc., or urged on by others, then his consciousness is of the same kind as the last but 'prompted'; for in this sense 'prompting' is a term for a prior effort exerted by himself or others. 34220 From: Herman Hofman Date: Sun Jun 27, 2004 4:46pm Subject: RE: [dsg] oral tradition Hi Jon, You wrote: On the other hand, where by following the advice of a teaching one has come to understand something of value confidence then it is surely only appropriate for that to be acknowledged. I have noticed that some people seem to take the view that what they have learnt from contact with the teachings is pretty much self-evident and would have been realised in due course anyway, or even that what they have learnt has in fact been self-discovered and that the teachings are little more than a handy point of reference serving to confirm the extent of their ongoing development. They are inclined to play down the role of the teachings in what they have come to understand. ======================================================= What you say is very reasonable. Acknowledgement is very appropriate, very middle way. As opposed to ritualized indebtedness on one hand, or fantasies of self-made sainthood on the other. Thank you Herman 34221 From: icarofranca Date: Sun Jun 27, 2004 5:21pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Icaro, kaamavacara kusala cittas Hi Nina! > Dear Icaro, > thank you, that is your kusala citta. > Only the Pali symbols: anasampayuttam should be: ñaa.nasampayutta.m > We should get the correct signs of Velthuis for Email. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- I´ve downloaded velthuis´ and Norman´s today again... it´s only a matter of install them at my palm Top!!! But that´s it. it´s ñaa.nasampayutta: combined (better than connected or no-disjoined) with knowledge. It Lacks me some expertise sometimes and I not feel myself so Kusala..heheheheh!!! But nevermind!I´m at your service, madam!!!! Mettaya, Ícaro > Nina. > op 27-06-2004 02:22 schreef icarofranca op icarofranca@y...: > > > > > >> Ath´ekanavuti´pi va - attha Kamavacara Kusala Cittani: > > > > Eight Types of Moral Consciousness of the sensuous sphere > >> > >> 1) somanassa-sahagatam anasampayuttam, asankharikam ekam > > 1) one consciousness, unprompted, accompained with pleasure, > > and connected with knowledge > > > >> 2)Somanassa-sahagatam anasampayuttam, sasankharikam ekam > > 2) one consciousness, prompted, accompained with pleasure, > > and connected with knowledge > > > >> 3) somanassa -sahagatam anavippayuttam asankharikam ekam > > 3) one consciousness, unprompted, accompained with pleasure, > > and no-connected with knowledge > > > >> 4) somanassa-sahagatam anavippayutam sasankharikam ekam > > 4) one consciousness, prompted, accompained with pleasure, > > and no-connected with knowledge > > > >> 5) Upekkhasahagatam anasampayuttam asankharikam ekam > > 5) one consciousness, unprompted, accompained with > > indifference, and connected with knowledge > > > >> 6) Upekkhasahagatam anasampayuttam sasankharikam ekam > > 6) one consciousness, prompted, accompained with > > indifference, and connected with knowledge > > > >> 7) Upekkhasahagatam anavippayutam asankharikam ekam > > 7) one consciousness, unprompted, accompained with > > indifference, and no-connected with knowledge > > > >> 8) Upekkhasahagatam anavippayutam sasankharikam ekam´ti > > 8) one consciousness, prompted, accompained with > > indifference, and no-connected with knowledge > >> > >> Imani attha´pi Kamavacarakusalacittani nama" 34222 From: icarofranca Date: Sun Jun 27, 2004 5:43pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Icaro, kaamavacara kusala cittas Hi Nina: > N: Ah, no. No motion at eyesense. Only colour or visible object. You seem to > see people moving, but that is thinking of the whole story, caused by many > different moments of seeing and all the while sañña, the cetasika > remembrance, marking such moments so that there can be remembrance of people > or things moving. Oscillation, motion or pressure appear through bodysense, > while touching. The whole day, it is good to get to know those > characteristics when they appear. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Thanks for the clarification. Buddhaghosa sometimes is a bit obscure in these passages, almost coming inside the Aristotelic vice of theorizing without a definite idea or scientific concept. Curiously such reasoning raises up the dynamics and motivation of a cartoon or anime: the whole scene is the cetasika rememberance of unique moments that pass by so fast that it creates the illusory perception of movement... so it´s not movement at the eyedoors, but only colors or visible object! --------------------------------------------------------------------- > So, can you tell me about some kusala you did today? Ah...I was seated at the bus today, when at the Sheraton Hotel bus stop climbed up an old lady that ressembled so much you, Nina, with some company. I only saw photos of you...but the old lady were very similar to the pictures anyway. What if were you, travelling incognito to Rio de Janeiro ??? No doubt! even if she could be Nina van Gorkon, it couldn´t be polite to address a lady in distress, because this dress or that dress weren´t my business anyway, HAHAHAHAHAH!!!!! mettaya, Ícaro (if she could be you, were you in distraught also ???) 34223 From: robmoult Date: Sun Jun 27, 2004 9:01pm Subject: Re: Relationships Hi Herman, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Herman Hofman" wrote: > H> When you write that gross object is broken into paramattha dhammas, > and the function, manifestation and proximate cause are known, are you > referring to the function etc of the gross object, or of the paramattha > dhamma. ===== The commentaries define all paramattha dhammas in terms of characteristic, function, manifestation and proximate cause. Under the microscope of sati, the gross object is only a concept. ===== > H> Are you here asking me to note a certain definition of the three > general characteristics, or are you asking me to observe something > observable and common to all observable dhammas in general? ===== All paramattha dhammas have the three characteristics in common. Recognizing this is insight. ===== > Also, would > you be so kind as to explain how the perception of change is different > to the perception of anicca? ===== Perception of change (watching an airplane fly across the sky) is mundane and can lead to worldly knowledge. Perception of anicca (a characteristic of paramattha dhammas) is profound and can lead to insight. ===== > > ===================================================== > > I hope you learned something in class today :-) I learned a lot in class. I am the teacher :-) Each Sunday morning, I teach a beginner's Abhidhamma class at the local temple. This week, we talked about ditthi, next week is mana. Metta, Rob M :-) PS: Sorry for the delay in responding and the short answers. I lost two versions of answers to this post before typing this one. Each version got shorter and added to the delay in responding. 34224 From: robmoult Date: Sun Jun 27, 2004 9:07pm Subject: Wisdom and the factors of enlightenment (was([dsg] Re: Relationships Hi All, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Philip" wrote: > > If you are asking about what are the conditions for the > perception of > > anicca, by quick answer (I am running out to teach my class) is the > > seven factors of enlightenment (bojjhanga): > > - Mindfulness > > - Investigation > > - Energy > > - Rapture > > - Tranquillity > > - Concentration > > - Equanimity > > > Ph: It occured to me to ask/wonder how wisdom (panna) wouldn't be a > factor of enlightenmnt. Would panna arise with the arising of > factors alone or in certain combinations? Wisdom *is* one of the five > faculties. (strengths?) I know for example that confidence/faith had > best arise together with wisdom. But what is the relationship between > wisdom and the factors of enlightenment? > You caught me :-) I was in a rush so I wrote down the first thing that entered my head as an answer. I haven't really studied the factors of enlightenment so they may not be the correct answer to the question of "conditions to percieve anicca". I don't know the answer to your question and I hope that somebody else can help us both out here. Metta, Rob M :-) 34225 From: Philip Date: Sun Jun 27, 2004 9:12pm Subject: Wisdom and the factors of enlightenment (was([dsg] Re: Relationships Hello all Thinking about this later, thought that perhaps panna (wisdom) is inherent in all enlightenment factors, and in the path factors as well? I think of Dhammapada I - 5: "Hatred is never appeased by hatred in this world. By non-hatred alone is hatred appeased." (Charaya Buddharakkhita trans.) But surely wisdom arises to see through hatred (the root of which is ignorance) before non-hatred (adosa? metta?) can arise. Metta, Phil --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Philip" wrote: > > > Hello Rob, and all > > The following is from Rob, in the "relationships" thread: > > > If you are asking about what are the conditions for the > perception of > > anicca, by quick answer (I am running out to teach my class) is the > > seven factors of enlightenment (bojjhanga): > > - Mindfulness > > - Investigation > > - Energy > > - Rapture > > - Tranquillity > > - Concentration > > - Equanimity > > > Ph: It occured to me to ask/wonder how wisdom (panna) wouldn't be a > factor of enlightenmnt. Would panna arise with the arising of > factors alone or in certain combinations? Wisdom *is* one of the five > faculties. (strengths?) I know for example that confidence/faith had > best arise together with wisdom. But what is the relationship between > wisdom and the factors of enlightenment? > > > Thank you, as always. Very grateful for all the guidance I'm > receiving from DSG. > > Metta, > Phil 34226 From: Philip Date: Sun Jun 27, 2004 9:16pm Subject: Wisdom and the factors of enlightenment (was([dsg] Re: Relationships Hi Rob Oops. I just cross posted with you. I'm happy to know that it might have been a useful question. Thanks as always for all your help. Metta, Phil Rob: > You caught me :-) I was in a rush so I wrote down the first thing > that entered my head as an answer. I haven't really studied the > factors of enlightenment so they may not be the correct answer to the > question of "conditions to percieve anicca". > > I don't know the answer to your question and I hope that somebody > else can help us both out here. 34227 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Jun 27, 2004 9:25pm Subject: Re: Wisdom and the factors of enlightenment Hello Philip, just butting in. A quick answer others may also give: Investigation is pañña, it is called here by the name: dhamma vicaya, investigation of the dhamma. In the tiika of Visuddhimagga 84, next week, condiitons are mentioned for this factor of enlightenment. You will see. Nina. op 27-06-2004 16:50 schreef Philip op plnao@j...: > The following is from Rob, in the "relationships" thread: > >> If you are asking about what are the conditions for the > perception of >> anicca, by quick answer (I am running out to teach my class) is the >> seven factors of enlightenment (bojjhanga): >> - Mindfulness >> - Investigation >> - Energy >> - Rapture >> - Tranquillity >> - Concentration >> - Equanimity 34228 From: kenhowardau Date: Sun Jun 27, 2004 11:34pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Relationships Hi Herman, Appreciating your conversation with Rob M. I would like to briefly interrupt where you say: --------------------- > The pile of chariot bits cannot be known as a means of transport, neither can hydrogen or oxygen singly be known for their liquidity. > ---------------------- I note that you are giving a chariot simile to show that the whole can be more than (or have different functions from) the sum of its parts. I'd just like to comment that the well-known chariot simile given by the Buddha had a different purpose. As I understand, it described a `conventional designation.' When we say, "There goes a chariot" we are using a conventional designation, which saves us from having to say, "There go two wheels, an axel, a tray and two shafts pulled by some horses." In a similar way, the Buddha said `man' `woman' `deva' and so on by way of conventional designation for the namas and rupas that actually exist. Corrections welcome. Kind regards, Ken H 34229 From: Sujjhana Bhinnatta Date: Mon Jun 28, 2004 0:12am Subject: Re: Wisdom and the factors of enlightenment (was([dsg] Re: Relationships Hello Everyone, Some comments: Nina:> A quick answer others may also give: Investigation is > pañña, it is called here by the name: dhamma vicaya, investigation of the > dhamma. B: While investigation is related to pañña, one is certainly not reducable to the other. Phra Ajaan Suwat Suvaco teaches us that dhamma vicaya in coordination with mindfulness, leads to pañña. I would add the remaining six factors of enlightenment to that list. Pañña arises when the seven factors are complete, not in a cause-effect relationship, but more of an emergent property of their combination. Similar to how an engine cannot be said to cause automobile, but an automobile cannot really be called such without an engine. Or in Buddha's way of putting it, a car is really no car, that is why we call it car. Besides, if the combination of two or three bojjhangas lead to pañña, then they would be called the two or three factors of enlightenment, not seven. Let us take basic anapanasati meditation to illustrate. When we follow the in-out breath, we are investigating, or looking into, the phenomena we call breath. The physical sensations, contact and movement underlying our perception of everyday "breath" become increasingly subtle under our vision. Energy is required to maintain this level of attention and to carry it ever deeper into the subtler flux of sensation. Eventually mindfulness, or remembering to keep the object (the breath) in mind, establishes itself firmly with less and less catering to distraction from competing sensations. The distractions are kept at bay by the slow arising of rapture, which I can only describe as a pleasant contentment with what is happening. Rapture is what keeps us from becoming bored with the breath and wanting to cater to some other momentary sense distraction. The combination of these factors establishes one in concentration. Thus one enters the samattha jnanas and into one-pointed tranquility. But this is nothing special. We have only yet established six of the seven factors. True pañña only arises when equanimity as a factor is established. Only then can all seven factors be truly called pañña. ===== Rob:>> If you are asking about what are the conditions for the >> perception of anicca, B: What are the conditions for the perception of anicca? What does it take to realize that all conditioned phenomena are inconstant? That there is no ground to stand on? That there is nothing whatsoever to grasp onto? What does it take? Some say only through practicing vipassana does one come to such realizations. Others say only by studying scripture and commentary. And still others say only through a combination of both study and practice. But friends, all it takes are a pair of eyes, two ears, a nose, a mouth, a body and a mind. May you all penetrate the truth of anicca, dukkha, and anatta. May you all be present and at peace. Bhinnatta --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.708 / Virus Database: 464 - Release Date: 6/19/2004 34230 From: robmoult Date: Mon Jun 28, 2004 0:42am Subject: Rupa Questions Hi All, I note that the kalapas produced by kamma do not include the rupas of buoyancy (lahuta), plasticity (muduta) or wieldiness (kammannata). I am okay with that. I note that the kalapas produced by citta include: - Pure octads - Body intimation nonad (pure octad + body intimation rupa) - Vocal intimation decad (pure octad + vocal intimation rupa + sound) - Pure octad + buoyancy + plasticity + wieldiness - Body intimation nonad + buoyancy + plasticity + wieldiness - Vocal intimation decad + buoyancy + plasticity + wieldiness Can I assume that the first three are only produced by those cittas without the cetasikas of buoyancy, plasticity and wieldiness and that the last three are only produced by those cittas including the cetasikas of buoyancy, plasticity and wieldiness? I note that the kalapas produced by temperature include: - Pure octad - Pure octad + sound - Pure octad + buoyancy + plasticity + wieldiness - Pure octad + sound + buoyancy + plasticity + wieldiness Can I assume that the first two are only produced asynchronous of mental states (in inanimate objects) and during those cittas without the cetasikas of buoyancy, plasticity and wieldiness and that the last two are only produced during those cittas including the cetasikas of buoyancy, plasticity and wieldiness (i.e. kusala cittas)? I know that the first two will continue to be produced after death (these are what a corpse is made of). At what point do the last two stop to be produced? At the dissolution moment of the cuti citta? I note that the kalapas produced by nutrition include: - Pure octad - Pure octad + buoyancy + plasticity + wieldiness Can I assume that the first is only produced during those cittas without the cetasikas of buoyancy, plasticity and wieldiness and that the last is only produced during those cittas including the cetasikas of buoyancy, plasticity and wieldiness (i.e. kusala cittas)? Metta, Rob M :-) 34231 From: Date: Sun Jun 27, 2004 2:30pm Subject: Nibbida Revulsion or Disinterest Nibbida Revulsion or Disinterest I believe the translation of the Pali term ‘Nibbida’ as ‘Revulsion’ is a classic example of Theravadan dogma affecting the translation of the Pali canon. The term ‘Nibbida’ was used by the historic Buddha to describe a necessary stage in which a contemplative arrives at a place of dispassion toward the aggregates (khandas/skhandas) so that equanimity, one of the 7 factors of enlightenment, can emerge. The problem with translating ‘Nibbida’ as ‘Revulsion’ is since when did the Buddha ever propose an aversive mental state, such as revulsion, could ever give rise to the cessation of displeasure and suffering (dukkha)? In fact we need only look to the 4 Noble Truths to know that both grasping and aversion are the causes of displeasure and suffering (dukkha). So, how could the scholars, such as Bhikkhu Bodhi, forget the foundations of Buddhist philosophy when they worked on their translations? I hope it seems as obvious to all of you, as it does to this writer, that ‘Nibbida’ should be translated as ‘displeasure, or even better ‘disinterest.’ I believe it should seem reasonable to a contemplative in a Buddhist context to give rise to disinterest toward the aggregates, than revulsion or disgust or aversion. Here is how Bhikkhu Bodhi translates ‘Nibbida’ in book III of the Samyutta Nikaya in the Book of Aggregates (Khandhavagga) Khandhasamyutta, pages 902-903. “Seeing thus, bhikkhus, the instructed noble disciple experiences revulsion towards form, revulsion towards feeling…â€? Should it be translated other wise? “Seeing thus, bhikkhus, the instructed noble disciple experiences disinterest towards form, disinterest towards feeling…â€? Kindest regards, Jeff Brooks The Great Western Vehicle Discourses_of_the_Buddha A dialog group dedicated to the Discourses of the Buddha Website: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Discourses_of_the_Buddha/ 34232 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Jun 28, 2004 1:41am Subject: The Jhaanas and the Lay Disciple According to the Paali Suttas (15) The Jhaanas and the Lay Disciple According to the Paali Suttas Ven. Bhikkhu Bodhi When Do the Jhaanas Become Necessary? (2) Such are the reports that have come down in the Sutta Pi.taka about two lay followers who possess both the four jhaanas and the status of non-returner. Whether these two achievements are inseparably connected or not is difficult to determine on the basis of the Nikaayas, but there are several texts that lend support to this conclusion. One sutta (AN 3:85/I 231-32) ranks the four classes of noble disciples in relation to the threefold higher training consisting of the higher virtue, the higher mind, and the higher wisdom. Just below, the Buddha explains the training in the higher virtue (adhisiila-sikkhaa) as the restraint of the Paatimokkha, the code of monastic rules; the training in the higher mind (adhicitta-sikkhaa), as the four jhaanas (defined by the usual formula); and the training in the higher wisdom (adhipaññaa-sikkhaa), as either the knowledge of the four noble truths or liberation from the taints (AN 3:88-89/I 235-36). Although the Buddha's treatment of this topic is governed by a monastic context, the principles of classification can easily be extended to lay disciples. Returning to AN 3:85, we learn that the stream-enterer and the once-returner have fulfilled the training in the higher virtue (which for a lay disciple would mean possession of "the virtues dear to the noble ones") but have accomplished the other two trainings only partly; the non-returner has fulfilled the trainings in the higher virtue and the higher mind but accomplished the training in the higher wisdom only partly; and the arahant has fulfilled all three trainings. Now since the non-returner has fulfilled the training in the higher mind, and this is defined as the four jhaanas, he is probably an attainer of the jhaanas. It might still be questioned, however, whether he must possess all four jhaanas. While a literal reading of the above sutta would support this conclusion, if we bear in mind my earlier comments about interpreting stock formulas, we might conjecture that the training in the higher mind is fulfilled by the secure attainment of even one jhaana. This seems to be confirmed by the Mahaamaalu,nkya Sutta (MN No. 64/I 434-37), which shows how the attainment of jhaana figures in the preliminary phase of the path to the stage of non-returner. At a certain point in his discourse, the Buddha announces that he will teach "the path and way for the abandoning of the five lower fetters" (yo maggo yaa pa.tipadaa pa-canna.m orambhaagiyaana.m sa.myojanaana.m pahaanaaya). He underscores the importance of what he is about to explain with a simile. Just as it is impossible to cut out the heartwood of a great tree without first cutting through the bark and softwood, so it is impossible to cut off the five lower fetters without relying on the path and practice he is about to make known. This lays down categorically that the procedure to be described must be exactly followed to win the promised goal, the eradication of the five lower fetters (the defining achievement of the non-returner). The Buddha then explains the method. The meditator enters into one of the four jhaanas or the lower three formless attainments (the text takes up each in turn) and dissects it into its constituents: form, feeling, perception, volitional formations, and consciousness in the case of the four jhaanas; the same, but omitting form, for the three formless attainments.[34] He next contemplates these phenomena in eleven ways: as impermanent, suffering, a disease, a boil, a dart, misery, affliction, alien, disintegrating, empty, and non-self. Then, when his contemplation reaches maturity, he turns his mind away from these things and directs it to the deathless element (amata-dhaatu), i.e., Nibbaana. "If he is firm in this he reaches arahantship right on the spot, but if he holds back slightly due to attachment and delight in the Dhamma, then he eliminates the five lower fetters and becomes a spontaneous ariser, who attains final Nibbaana there (in a celestial realm) without ever returning from that world."[35] ****** Notes 34. According to the commentary, the fourth formless state, the base of neither-perception-nor-non-perception, is not mentioned because its constituents are too subtle to be comprehended by insight. But a parallel text, AN 9:36/IV 422-26, teaches a method by which the fourth formless attainment, as well as the cessation of feeling and perception, can be used to generate insight and thereby reach arahantship or non-returning. 35. MN I 435-36: So tattha.t.thito aasavaana.m khaya.m paapu.naati; no ce aasavaana.m khaya.m paapu.naati ten'eva dhammaraagena taaya dhammanandiyaa pa-canna.m orambhaagiyaana.m sa.myojanaana.m parikkhayaa opapaatiko hoti tatthaparinibbaayii anaavattidhammo tasmaa lokaa. 34233 From: icarofranca Date: Mon Jun 28, 2004 4:02am Subject: Re: Relationships Dear RobMoult > > The commentaries define all paramattha dhammas in terms of > characteristic, function, manifestation and proximate cause. Under > the microscope of sati, the gross object is only a concept. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Right on! One can conceive the idea that the Paramattha Dhammas are inside the set of rethorics and the commentaries under the set of poetry without this acute and clear sight of Sati. Falling under the sanctificted sight of Sati everything and everyone, gross or subtile, become only aggregates of concepts! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > I learned a lot in class. I am the teacher :-) --------------------------------------------------------------------- Ah!!!! So you are a Pink Floyd fan ??? "Hey teacher leave us kids alone All in all it's just, another brick in the wall All in all you're just, another brick in the wall" ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Each Sunday morning, I teach a beginner's Abhidhamma class at the > local temple. This week, we talked about ditthi, next week is mana. --------------------------------------------------------------------- I hope you aren´t so harsh as the typical Pink Floyd´s teacher! "Absolutelly rubbish, laddie!!!(Whack!!!) Now repeat after me: all existence are Dukkha, Anicca and Anatta..." (just kidding...heheheheh!!!) Mettaya, Ícaro 34234 From: icarofranca Date: Mon Jun 28, 2004 4:11am Subject: Wisdom and the factors of enlightenment (was([dsg] Re: Relationships Hi RobMoult: But what is the relationship > between > > wisdom and the factors of enlightenment? > > > > I don't know the answer to your question and I hope that somebody > else can help us both out here. -------------------------------------------------------------------- I could risk a definition here... it´s similar with the relationship between a slippery floor and a stumbling down. Wisdom is necessary, in combination with knowledge,to rise up the Kusala Cittas, but is not mandatory. Since you can stumbling down and fall without a slippery floor, you can reach enlightmente without ñaana...but the other case is more probable to happen!!! Mettaya, Ícaro 34235 From: robmoult Date: Mon Jun 28, 2004 4:38am Subject: Re: Relationships Hi Icaro, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "icarofranca" wrote: > -------------------------------------------------------------------- -- > > > > > I learned a lot in class. I am the teacher :-) > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- - > > Ah!!!! So you are a Pink Floyd fan ??? > > "Hey teacher leave us kids alone > All in all it's just, another brick in the wall > All in all you're just, another brick in the wall" > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- -- > > > > Each Sunday morning, I teach a beginner's Abhidhamma class at the > > local temple. This week, we talked about ditthi, next week is mana. > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- - > > I hope you aren´t so harsh as the typical Pink Floyd´s teacher! > > > "Absolutelly rubbish, laddie!!!(Whack!!!) > Now repeat after me: all existence are Dukkha, Anicca and > Anatta..." > I remember the album well! There aren't any "kids" in my class. I would put the average age at about 45. On Saturday, I start teaching another class (for four weeks) which, I suspect, will be mainly made up of university students. It will be interesting to contrast the reactions with my Sunday class. Last night, my wife and I went to the temple to sit in on a visiting Burmese monk's Abhidhamma class. The Burmese approach to teaching Abhidhamma is very different. They memorize strings of Pali names for cittas by reciting mnemonics: Som sa di sam asan Somanassa-sahagatam ditthigata-sampayuttam asankharikham ekam Som sa di sam sasan Somanassa-sahagatam ditthigata-sampayuttam sasankharikham ekam Some day, when I have more time, I will join the Pali class at the temple. I am so lucky to live in Malaysia (oops, there is mana again :-) ). Metta, Rob M :-) 34236 From: icarofranca Date: Mon Jun 28, 2004 5:35am Subject: Re: Relationships Hi RobMoult! > > I remember the album well! > > There aren't any "kids" in my class. I would put the average age at > about 45. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- So beware the whacks!!! HAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!! --------------------------------------------------------------------- > Last night, my wife and I went to the temple to sit in on a visiting > Burmese monk's Abhidhamma class. The Burmese approach to teaching > Abhidhamma is very different. They memorize strings of Pali names for > cittas by reciting mnemonics: > Som sa di sam asan > Somanassa-sahagatam ditthigata-sampayuttam asankharikham ekam > Som sa di sam sasan > Somanassa-sahagatam ditthigata-sampayuttam sasankharikham ekam --------------------------------------------------------------------- Good mnemonics!! That´s the classical way to learn (without the whacks, of course)...I use somewhat of this kind to learn difficult points on latim and hebrew. --------------------------------------------------------------------- > Some day, when I have more time, I will join the Pali class at the > temple. I am so lucky to live in Malaysia (oops, there is mana > again :-) ). ---------------------------------------------------------------------- At Rome, do as the romans...unless you are a teacher as Orbilius Pupilius, called by their reluctant students "Orbilius Plagosus" or "Orbilius The Whacker", because his habit to perform this type of correction on idle students! And now...back to Dudley Do-Right of the Mounties! Mettaya, Ícaro 34237 From: Bhikkhu Samahita Date: Mon Jun 28, 2004 3:01am Subject: The 3 Liberations ! Friends: Three Ways Up to yet One & Same Top: There are these 3 liberations: The Signless Liberation.. The Wishless Liberation.. The Void Liberation.. Penetration of the Universal Impermanence of all phenomena, makes one comprehend that all constructions always are becoming otherwise & therefore cannot contain any constant unchanging 'substance or core". Phenomena are then seen as transient 'signs' or 'symbols' only appearing to be constant & solid. As all phenomena through change thus are inevitably lost, unkeepable & unownable, the dispassion of disillusion is induced. This detachment turn attention towards the only lasting & safe state: The signless Nibbana. This relinquishment of all constructions based on comprehension of their inherent ephemeral transience, is called the Signless Liberation... Penetration of the Universal Painful aspect of all phenomena as they change, decay & disappear, out of one's control, makes one realize the inevitable Dissatisfaction, Disappointment and Suffering bound up with all these passing constructions... This naturall cools down the desire for them, since who actually want what is painful...This relinquishment of all constructions based on comprehension of their inherent Pain is called the Wishless Liberation... Penetration of the Universal Impersonality of all passing phenomena makes one realize that they cannot be "I, Me, Mine, "What I Am" nor any "Self" as they constantly change & become otherwise... Phenomena arise & cease according to own causes and are thus not under 'My' control! Fully comprehending this alien remoteness, unrelated disconnectedness & ownerless egolessness of all phenomena - internal as external, mental as material, induces a quite strange yet open & joyous perception of the basic impersonality, voidness of any self or core & emptiness of identity... Relinquishing this idea of internal self & external substance is called the Void Liberation ... The attained state of Freedom, Peace & Bliss is One & Ever the Same... Impermanent are all Constructions Miserable are all Constructions Impersonal are all Phenomena All yours in the Dhamma. Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. http://groups.msn.com/DirectDhamma/ http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Buddha-Direct/ http://www.smartgroups.com/groups/TrueDhamma 34238 From: agriosinski Date: Mon Jun 28, 2004 5:57am Subject: [dsg] Re: Wheel sutta --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "icarofranca" w= rote: > Dear Agriosinski: > > > That would be just perfect. > > Where is this Pali list? > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > You can gather up all Pali information in many sources on net. [...] > Differences ? The texts on www.tipitaka.org is more readable than > www.metta.lk´s... but you first must download the Pali fonts ; > Norman, velthius or others, to best reading! Thanks for the links. I am not sure if I am ready to use new fonts you see. I was thinking more along the line of latin letters and pali words, exactly the way Nina presents her translations. Trilinear as she calls it. > > This is my intention :) > > Are you having one of these supernatural powers? > > ;) > I´ve got many Dudley Do-right and Rocky & Bullwinkle cartoon > episodes recorded on VHS...but is not pali canonical at all!!!! > but any of them can read thoughts as Nina does? ;) > Mettaya, Ícaro metta, Agrios 34239 From: agriosinski Date: Mon Jun 28, 2004 6:02am Subject: [dsg] Re: Wheel sutta --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: [...] > [Send Message] pali@yahoogroups.com > Nina. Hi Nina, perfect. I am there. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Pali/ metta, Agrios 34240 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Jun 28, 2004 7:02am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Complication (was Re: Dustrags) Hi Bhinnatta & Philip, I was very impressed by both your comments on this topic of papa~nca (complication/proliferation/impediment). I'd like to add a few more reflections on the meaning. (You may also like to look at some posts written quite some time back in U.P. under 'papa~nca') http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/Useful_Posts There seem to be two 'schools' of translation here, summarised in this extract of the definition from the PTS dict on line: http://dsal.uchicago.edu/dictionaries/pali/index.html ..... "Papanca (p. 412) [in its P. meaning uncertain whether identical with Sk. prapanca (pra+panc to spread out; meaning "expansion, diffuseness, manifoldedness"; cp. papanceti & papanca 3) more likely, as suggested by etym. & meaning of Lat. im--ped--iment--um, connected with pada, thus perhaps originally "pa--pad--ya," i. e. what is in front of (i. e. in the way of) the feet (as an obstacle)] 1. obstacle, impediment, a burden which causes delay, hindrance, delay DhA I.18; II.91 (katha°). °n karoti to delay, to tarry..." ***** S: I notice that Bhuddatta's dictionary follows the meaning of 'obstacle, delay, impediment or illusion, hindrance to spiritual practice' which I find very interesting, while Nyantiloka's dictionary follows the first meaning of 'expansion, differentiation, diffuseness etc following the Sk. http://www.palikanon.com/english/wtb/n_r/papanca.htm B.Bodhi uses 'proliferation' in translations such as MN11 and this seems to be most common: "Friends, that goal is for one who does not delight in and enjoy proliferation, not for one who delights in and enjoys proliferation." In the footnote, he writes: "Proliferation (papanca), according to MA [the comy], is here mental activity governed by craving and views." He then refers the reader to note 229 which discusses the term at length. He also discusses it in detail in his introduction to the Mulapariyaya Sutta and commentaries which indicate it is 'motivated' by craving (ta.nhaa), conceit (maana), and views (di.t.thi). He also mentions 'that the commentary glosses the word 'ma~n~nanaa'(conceiving) by the word 'papa~nca'. ..... To underscore the point Phil was making about the wrong use or reading of similes such as the 'dustrag', the comy to this sutta stresses that "it is not the mere employment of the expression that is intended here, but the wrong adherence which occurs through the conventional expression. ......By this, weak conceiving through craving, conceit, and views is shown." I particularly appreciated Bhinnatta's further reminders about the dustrag simile: .... "....I don't see the dustrag simile being discussed as an encouragement to think conceptually or to create some new idea in our heads of a dust rag. The teaching was about humility and forgiveness. Sariputta has attained stability in the midst of injustice, remaining equanimous and unmoved by it; similar to how a dust rag collects disgusting filth without complaint. The dustrag is the finger pointing, not the moon itself." .... Your other comments were helpful too and I look forward to more (and any more intro about yourself such as where you live, if inclined;-)). From the sub-comy to the Mulapariyaya sutta: .... "Papa~ncasa'nkhaa = portions of papa~nca (papa~ncako.t.thaasa). Because of these, beings are detained (papa~ncanti) in sa'msaara, i.e delayed, thus these are 'proliferating tendencies.' 'Conceiving (ma~n~nanaa): because of these people conceive, i.e misconstrue (parikappenti) things as 'This is mine', etc. Craving, conceit, and views are referred to here by two synonymous terms, 'conceivings' and 'proliferating tendencies'. "He apprehends it...contrary (to reality)': like the conceiving of views, the conceivings of craving and conceit also apprehend things contrary to reality - craving assuming the repulsive to be beautiful, conceit the inferior to be superior, etc...." ***** So here we have the connection with the vipallaasa (perversions) which Phil also referred to and I think the second set of dictionary definitions of pap~nca which I started with would fit well here: 'obstacle, delay, impediment or illusion, hindrance to spiritual practice', referring specifically to craving, conceit and wrong views. I think 'complication' is quite an interesting way to look at them too. Finally, on a somewhat lighter note, I came across this very interesting and relevant (!!) quote in the Sammohavinodanii (transl as the 'Dispeller or Delusion by ~Naa.namoli who also uses 'proliferation',ch 17.2350): ..... "And one who is without understanding sits in the midst of his supporters and makes a show of his great understanding by speaking thus: 'As I was looking up in the Majjhima Nikaaya the three kinds of proliferation (Papa~ncattaya.m), I came to the path with the miraculous powers. Competency in the scriptures is not difficult for us. But one who gets involved in scriptural competency is not released from suffering, so we gave up scriptural competency,' and so on. There is no greater rogue (mahaacora) than this. For it is not a fact that an expert in the scriptures is not released from suffering." ***** Thank you again for encouraging me to consider further here -- it's been a welcome break from pap~nca relating to packing, the still broken washing machine, Jon's injured back, the sick friend and other worldly chores. It's not a matter of not having papa~nca, but a matter of developing the understanding which will see the craving, conceit, and views for what they are - obstacles, delays, impedimens or illusions - as I see it. Reflecting on dustrags, anatta or anything else can be kusala or akusala with or without papa~nca. Only pa~n~naa can know. Metta, Sarah p.s Phil your intended further reading of CMA, 'Cetasikas' and 'Conditions' sounds excellent. The last two books by Nina are on line, so feel free to post any passages with your commentary;-). =============== 34241 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Jun 28, 2004 7:05am Subject: The Jhaanas and the Lay Disciple According to the Paali Suttas (16) The Jhaanas and the Lay Disciple According to the Paali Suttas Ven. Bhikkhu Bodhi When Do the Jhaanas Become Necessary? (3) The Mahaamaalu,nkya Sutta thus makes the attainment of jhaana a necessary part of the preparatory practice for attaining the stage of non-returner. Though the sutta discusses the practice undertaken by a monk, since the Buddha has declared this to be "the path and practice for abandoning the five lower fetters," we are entitled to infer that lay practitioners too must follow this course. This would imply that a once-returner who aspires to become a non-returner should develop at least the first jhaana in the preliminary phase of the path, using the jhaana as the launching pad for developing insight. While the Mahaamaalu,nkya Sutta and its parallel (AN 9:36/IV 422-26) imply that prior attainment of the first jhaana is a minimum requirement for reaching the fruit of non-returning, we may still query whether this is an invariable rule or merely a general stipulation that allows for exceptions. Several suttas suggest the latter may in fact be the case. In two consecutive texts the Buddha extols the "eight wonderful and marvellous qualities" of two lay followers named Ugga. In the first (AN 8:aa1/IV 211), he declares that Ugga of Vesaalii has abandoned all five fetters (as for Nandamaataa above); in the second (AN 8:22/IV 216), he says that Ugga of Hatthigaama has no fetters bound by which he might come back to this world (as for Citta). Yet, though he thus confirms their standing as non-returners, the Buddha does not mention jhaanic attainments among their eight wonderful qualities. This, of course, need not be taken to mean that they lacked attainment of jhaana. It may have been that their jhaanic skills were less remarkable than the other qualities they possessed, or they may have been adept in only one or two jhaanas rather than in all four. But it does leave open the possibility that they were non-returners without jhaana. Still another suggestive text is the Diighaavu Sutta (SN 55:3/V 344-46). Here, the Buddha visits a young lay follower named Diighaavu, who is gravely ill. He first enjoins the sick boy to acquire confirmed confidence in the Three Jewels and the virtues dear to the noble ones, that is, to become a stream-enterer. When Diighaavu declares that he already possesses these qualities, the Buddha tells him that since he is established in the four factors of stream-entry, he should "strive further to develop six qualities that partake of true knowledge" (cha vijjaabhaagiyaa dhammaa): "You should dwell contemplating the impermanence of all formations, perceiving suffering in what is impermanent, perceiving non-self in what is suffering, perceiving abandonment, perceiving dispassion, perceiving cessation."[36] Diighaavu assures the Blessed One that he is already practising these contemplations, and the Master leaves. A short time later Diighaavu dies. On hearing the news of his death, the monks approach the Buddha to ask about his future rebirth. The Buddha declares that Diighaavu the lay follower had eradicated the five lower fetters and was spontaneously reborn as a non-returner. Here the transition from stream-entry to non-returning occurs entirely through a series of contemplations that pertain to insight. There has been no exhortation to develop the jhaanas, yet through the practice of the "six things partaking of true knowledge" Diighaavu has severed the five fetters and gained the third fruit of the path. ****** Notes 36. SN V 345: Cha vijjaabhaagiye dhamme uttari.m bhaaveyyaasi. Idha tva.m Diighaavu sabbasa,nkhaaresu aniccaanupassii viharaahi, anicce dukkhasa--ii dukkhe anattasa--ii pahaanasa--ii viraagasa--ii nirodhasa--ii ti. 34242 From: Philip Date: Mon Jun 28, 2004 7:28am Subject: [dsg] Complication (was Re: Dustrags) Hi Sarah Now to get to the rest of your thoughtful message that I didn't have time for the other night. (I always seem to be about 2 days behind here - no need to fret about that, of course.) S: > Yesterday, Jon and I were sitting on the beach (Dragon Boat festival > here), reading posts. When he read out the quotes I'd included about > dustrags I found it a condition then and there for helpful reflection > about the extent of commonly arising conceit and the value of being a > nobody?E Ph: I think it would be very helpful to be able to read posts out loud and discuss them with someone face to face. It was very interesting to experience that first dhamma talk with Rob K - being able to speak and hear the Dhamma is different somehow. There may come a day when Naomi and I will have such discussions. We will see how conditions play out. Ph:> >Maybe I am thinking too literally. In K Sujin's teaching, a > > dustrug is a symbol of being a nobody, which I can appreciate the > > wisdom of, not necessarily with the connotation of soking up other > > people's toxins. > .... > S: She'd say straight away that it's not her teaching but the Buddha's. Ph: Yes. That was bad wording on my part. I suppose it could be said that K Sujin's emphasis is different from other teachers, of course, but it is the Buddha's teaching. Ph: > > Personally, I prefer using symbols of water that wash away > > defilements. Water seems much less complicated. I'm think of AN 130, > > the Lekha Sutta. (clip) S: > "And how is an individual like an inscription in water? There is the case > where a certain individual -- when spoken to roughly, spoken to harshly, > spoken to in an unpleasing way -- is nevertheless congenial, > companionable, & courteous. Just as an inscription in water immediately > disappears and doesn't last a long time, in the same way a certain > individual -- when spoken to roughly, spoken to harshly, spoken to in an > unpleasing way -- is nevertheless congenial, companionable, & courteous. > This is called an individual like an inscription in water.?E> .... > S: Wonderful sutta. Similar message - perhaps the dust-rag just takes it a > little further. Ph: This image of an inscription in water really is hugely helfpul for a person like myself who is prone to resentments. Even before gaining a somewhat deeper understanding of realites through Nina's books this sutta was helpful. And now - well, come to think of it, I don't think about it like I used to. I guess there are other similes that I respond more to now. The burning house is one. But I wonder if the way respond to these similes becomes less intense and personal as our understanding deepens. And I assume they very rarely arise for Ariyans. > > Ph: But I would have thought we would > > choose a more direct method of rightly understanding oneself as a > > nobody. > .... > S: Yes, it depends on accumulations. LIke you, without some appreciation > of Abhidhamma first, I'm not sure the following reflections alone would > ever condition an appreciation of anatta. Now I find them priceless. > From the PTS translation (Hare) it is in Bk of 9s, Ch 11 `The Lion Roar?E > i,11 (as Jim said) and also in B.Bodhi's "Numerical Discourses of the > Buddha?E under `Sariputta's Lion's Roar?E p231. > > "Just as, Lord, people throw upon the earth things clean and unclean, > dung, urine, spittle, pus and blood, yet for all that the earth has no > revulsion, loathing or disgust towards it; even so, Lord, do I dwell with > a heart that is like the earth, vast, exalted and measureless, without > hostility and without ill will. However, one in whom mindfulness directed > on the body in regard to the body is not present may well hit a fellow > monk and leave without an apology. > > "Just as. Lord, people use water to wash things clean and unclean, things > soiled....... > > "Just as, Lord, fire burns things clean and unclean, things > soiled.... > > "Just as, Lord, the wind blows over things clean and unclean..... > > "Lord, just as a duster *[S: i.e dust-rag]* wipes over things clean and > unclean, things soiled > with dung, urine, pus and blood, yet for all that the duster has no > revulsion, loathing or disgust towards it; even so, Lord, do I dwell with > a heart that is like a duster.... > > "Lord, just as an outcast boy or girl, begging-vessel in hand and clad in > rags, enters a village with a humble heart; even so, Lord, do I dwell with > a heart like that of an outcast youth, a heart that is vast, exalted and > measureless, without hostility and without ill will...... > Ph: That is very beautiful and encouraging. As you said, an expansion, really, on the Lekha Sutta. I don't know quite why I have gone on like this about questioning the need for similes, when they are so helpful. Just feeling my way around, starting to understand what it means to investigate realities directly. I suppose as I beginner I have misunderstood that we need to renounce the pleasures of poetry. But surely that is not the case. Thanks again. Metta, Phil 34243 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Jun 28, 2004 10:21am Subject: Perseverance in Dhamma, Ch 6, no 6 Perseverance in Dhamma, Ch 6, no 6 The objects of the fourth Application of Mindfulness are the hindrances, the five khandhas, the six internal and external sensebases (ayatanas), the seven factors of enlightenment and the four noble Truths. Thus, these are dhammas under different aspects and different cetasikas. We read in the ³Satipaììhånasutta²: "Here, O bhikkhus, a bhikkhu lives contemplating the mental objects in the mental objects of the five hindrances. How, O bhikkhus, does a bhikkhu live contemplating mental objects in the mental objects of the five hindrances? Here, O bhikkhus, when sensuality is present, a bhikkhu knows with understanding: 'I have sensuality,' or when sensuality is not present, he knows with understanding: 'I have no sensuality.'.... When anger is present, he knows with understanding: 'I have anger,' or when anger is not present, he knows with understanding: 'I have no anger.' ...² We can see how the Abhidhamma helps us to understand the suttas, and how the Abhidhamma is indispensable to start on the right Path. The hindrances are only akusala cetasikas, arising because of conditions, they have no owner. In this sense they are beyond control. But paññå, right understanding developed through satipatthåna, can eventually eradicate them. The body is with us all the time, when standing, sitting, going, lying down, but we are forgetful of dhammas. We have pleasant feeling, unpleasant feeling, indifferent feeling all the time, but we are forgetful. It is the same with all the other aspects in the other two Applications of Mindfulness. We are forgetfull, but all sections of the Applications of Mindfulness can bring us back to reality. Often we are dreaming but sometimes there can be non-forgetfulness of visible object, or sound, just one dhamma at a time. When we discern the difference between moments of forgetfulness and a moment, even a single moment, of sati, we can verify its characteristic. This is the right condition for its development. Insight, vipassanå, is developed by means of mindfulness of all nåmas and rúpas appearing in our daily life and these are classified as the four Applications of Mindfulness. There is no specific order according to which there should be awareness. At one moment rúpa may appear, at another moment nåma may appear. The goal is understanding that can eradicate defilements. **** Nina 34244 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Jun 28, 2004 10:21am Subject: Re: Wisdom and the factors of enlightenment Hello Philip, I am just building up my Intro to Vis. 84, and here I lift out something for you. Later on you will get my whole intro if you like. We read in the ³Expositor² (p. 101) about the conditions for the enlightenment factor of Investigation of Dhamma: As to cleansing of things and substances, this is personal cleanliness of the body, of clothes and dwelling, as the Commentary to the Satipa.t.thaanasutta explains. Equalizing of the faculties pertains to the balancing of the faculties of confidence, energy, mindfulness, concentration and wisdom. Thus we see that also physical factors are conditions for wisdom. Nina. 34245 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Jun 28, 2004 10:21am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Icaro, kaamavacara kusala cittas Dear Icaro, op 28-06-2004 02:21 schreef icarofranca op icarofranca@y...: > sometimes and I not feel myself so Kusala..heheheheh!!! N: Conditions, conditions! We are worldlings, what else do we expect? Still full lobha, dosa, moha. You are sincere, and sincerity, truthfulness is one of the perfections. It is so necessary for samatha and vipassana, otherwise we delude ourselves, taking for kusala what is attachment. And now you can see that kusala and akusala have conditions, no possessor, not you. I: But nevermind!I´m at your service, madam!!!! N: Veyyavaca, helping, serving others is one of the ten puññakiriyavatthu. If you see the benefit of kusala it can arise more often. it is all by conditions. Right friendship is one of the conditions. Icaro: Curiously such reasoning raises up the dynamics and motivation of a cartoon or anime: the whole scene is the cetasika rememberance of unique moments that pass by so fast that it creates the illusory perception of movement... so it´s not movement at the eyedoors, but only colors or visible object! N: You grasped that all right, Icaro. You listened and considered, studied the Dhamma. Also when watching cartoons. That is the way to do it, that is dhamma in daily life. That is also among the ten puññakiriyavatthu. No need to tear yourself away from your cartoons. Dhamma is everywhere. Within yourself and around yourself. May we all see more and more the benefit of kusala and especially of right understanding! Nina. 34246 From: Philip Date: Mon Jun 28, 2004 3:49pm Subject: Re: Wisdom and the factors of enlightenment Hello Nina Thank you very much. When I received my copy of Visudhimmaga as a kind gift from a good Dhamma friend and excitedly opened it, the first phrase I came across was this "making the basis clean", as my edition has it. I told Naomi about it, and she said "I told you so." She'd often said that if I meditate when the room is a mess it reflects my messy mind and makes the whole exercise pointless. I think she was right. :o) BTW, my edition (Nanamoli Bhikkhu trans) has "persons without understanding" rather than "unintelligent persons." Don't you think the former might be better? It seems that "persons without understanding" would be less of a hindering condition, because you would have some hope of gaining understanding together, but unintelligent persons would have no hope of gaining understanding in this lifetime? A minor point, I know. I like the way the conditions for each factor contain advice about cultivating (frequenting) certain kinds of people and avoiding others. I think that is very realistic and practical and it has inspired me *not* to accept my co-workers' constant invitations to join them for drinks at a notorious bar where they go to get drunk and "chat up" boozy women. I was starting to waver but I will stay home and "chat up" my DSG friends instead. (And Naomi, of course.) :) Metta, Phil P.S What does Vis 84 mean?In my edition this section is in Chapter IV, 54. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > Hello Philip, > I am just building up my Intro to Vis. 84, and here I lift out something for > you. Later on you will get my whole intro if you like. > > We read in the ³Expositor² (p. 101) about the conditions for the > enlightenment factor of Investigation of Dhamma: > and substances, equalizing of the faculties, avoiding of unintelligent > persons, frequenting of wise persons, reflection on teachings of deep > knowledge, inclination (of mind) towards this.> > As to cleansing of things and substances, this is personal cleanliness of > the body, of clothes and dwelling, as the Commentary to the > Satipa.t.thaanasutta explains. Equalizing of the faculties pertains to the > balancing of the faculties of confidence, energy, mindfulness, concentration > and wisdom. Thus we see that also physical factors are conditions for > wisdom. > Nina. 34247 From: Herman Hofman Date: Mon Jun 28, 2004 4:45pm Subject: The dangers of hanging around only with like-minded people Hi everyone, Kakacupama Sutta http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/majjhima/mn021.html We are all human, and we all pursue the things we like, and avoid the things we dislike. And when we have been able to temporarily structure our environment according to our wishes we may believe a pleasure-not-of-this-world descends on us. Reading the story of the slave girl Kali and her supposed even-tempered mistress Lady Vedehika reminds me that there is only a fine line between believing one is fostering conditions for spiritual growth by pursuing certain activities (and avoiding others) , and pursuing activities ignorant of the craving and aversion that drive that. In short, each day is long enough to be aware 1000 times of craving/aversion and how different it is to equanimity. Catch ya'll later Herman 34248 From: Philip Date: Mon Jun 28, 2004 5:02pm Subject: Re: Transference of merit? Hello all Getting back to K Sujin's "Metta" today I found this passage on "extension of merit." "When we have performed kusala kamma we can extend merit to others that are able to appreciate our good deeds, and this is a form of dana, of generosity. It is beneficial to do this, because at such a moment the citta is accompanied by metta. We think of the well being of someone else, we give him the opportunity to have kusala citta with appreciation of our kusala. When somebody has ?ganumodhana- dana,?h appreciation of another person?fs kusala, it is his kusala kamma. We all can rejoice in each other?fs kusala, by anumodhana- dana, and in this way benefit from the good deeds performed by someone else. However, we should not extend merit out of fear that there is someone who could avenge himself and cause misfortune. The development of metta towards those we meet in this life is more beneficial than the extension of merit to an avenger we have never seen and whom we do not know." I don't know if this kind of "extending merit" would be included in "transference of merit", technically speaking, but it certainly is sensible. Metta, Phil p.s my apologies if someone has already brought this up in the "transfer of merit" thread, which I fell out of touch with during a busy few days. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Philip" wrote: > > > Hello all > > Only time for a quick question today. > > In the list of 10 meritous deeds, I see "transference of merit." > I googled the term but came up with metaphysical-ish topics related > to Pure Land Buddhism. > What is this "transference of merit" and how might it arise in > our daily life? > > Thanks in advance. > > Metta, > Phil 34249 From: Philip Date: Mon Jun 28, 2004 5:11pm Subject: Re: The dangers of hanging around only with like-minded people Hi Herman, and all A helpful reminder! I used to think about this simile a lot but it had fallen away. It's great the way we are reminded by dhamma friends of things that are helpful to remember. H: > We are all human, and we all pursue the things we like, and avoid the > things we dislike. And when we have been able to temporarily structure > our environment according to our wishes we may believe a > pleasure-not-of-this-world descends on us. Ph: I think it's pretty well impossible to structure our environment if we have to go to work every day, deal with customers/co-workers, commute in crowded trains etc. So there will always be plenty of opportunities to cultivate equanimity. But in one's leisure hours, I think it might be wise to cultivate a fair amount of solitude, and if there is company with others, insist that it is with kindred souls, so to speak. Not in hopes of escaping from dukkha, but there is something to be gained in those quiet hours away from people, or with people of understanding. So I would stick by my decision to avoid my lust-maddened co-workers outside the work place. I see enough of them there. Metta, Phil --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Herman Hofman" wrote: > > Hi everyone, > > Kakacupama Sutta > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/majjhima/mn021.html > > We are all human, and we all pursue the things we like, and avoid the > things we dislike. And when we have been able to temporarily structure > our environment according to our wishes we may believe a > pleasure-not-of-this-world descends on us. > > Reading the story of the slave girl Kali and her supposed even- tempered > mistress Lady Vedehika reminds me that there is only a fine line between > believing one is fostering conditions for spiritual growth by pursuing > certain activities (and avoiding others) , and pursuing activities > ignorant of the craving and aversion that drive that. > > In short, each day is long enough to be aware 1000 times of > craving/aversion and how different it is to equanimity. > > Catch ya'll later > > Herman 34250 From: Herman Hofman Date: Mon Jun 28, 2004 5:52pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: The dangers of hanging around only with like-minded people Hi Phil, I've got another GREAT reminder for you :-) See below. =================================================== P> Hi Herman, and all A helpful reminder! I used to think about this simile a lot but it had fallen away. It's great the way we are reminded by dhamma friends of things that are helpful to remember. H: > We are all human, and we all pursue the things we like, and avoid the > things we dislike. And when we have been able to temporarily structure > our environment according to our wishes we may believe a > pleasure-not-of-this-world descends on us. Ph: I think it's pretty well impossible to structure our environment if we have to go to work every day, deal with customers/co-workers, commute in crowded trains etc. So there will always be plenty of opportunities to cultivate equanimity. =============================================== H> You don't HAVE TO go to work!!! How good is that!! I am sure that you can list a thousand reasons why you think you have to, but I suspect that most of them will come down to desires/aversions. For the rest, I am not here to tell others what to do or not to do. A reminder re awareness can't be bad, but, can it? :-) Catch U Later Herman 34251 From: Mr Tzung-Kuen Wen Date: Mon Jun 28, 2004 6:56pm Subject: ¦^ÂСG[dsg] Re:dsg] Bodhi: The Jhaanas and the Lay Disciple According to the Paali Suttas (1) Dear Sarah Thanks a lot for sharing with me the passages concerning Sarvastivada in Katthavatthu and the way to get Nina¡¦s translations of Vism-mht. S: They arise together and are each the promate cause of the other as I understand, developing together. T: But from the perspective of Visuddhimagga, the scheme of three trainings (sila, Samadhi, panna), only when the purification of mind (cittavisuddhi) is fulfilled by means of access concentration (by vipassana or samatha meditation) or jhana (by samatha meditation), can one gain the real insight knowledges (vipassanaa ~naana) which will in turn lead to magga and phala. . S: In your view, what does it mean ?to practice samatha meditation to attain jhanas?? T: Yes, if jhana is, as some scholars have suggested, absolutely necessary for attaining magga-phala, we have to practice samatha meditation, if we want to get magga-phala. S: Can there be any control or order over what kind of kusala arises at this moment? If there is any idea of ?trying to practice vipassana meditation? as opposed to understanding currently arising namas and rupas, can it be right? What I am getting at is that these arguments about certain orders all suggest an idea of a self that can control or arrange practices when we know the teachings are about anatta T: I don¡¦t quite understand what you mean. If we chose to practice metta bhavana, we can cause cittas accompanied by metta to arise. Since the flow of consciousness is also a conditioned dhamma, we could change it to some degree, otherwise there is no use of moral precept (sila), charity (dana) and mental development (bhavana). Don¡¦t we need to control our verbal, bodily and mental behavior in order to follow the teaching of the Buddha? To strive for practicing meditation (samatha or vipassana) is to understand from experience the doctrine of anatta. Dosen¡¦t it? With metta Tzungkuen 34252 From: Mr Tzung-Kuen Wen Date: Mon Jun 28, 2004 7:02pm Subject: Every Paramattha dhamma can be clearly observed from experience ? Dear Dhamma friends Since many members in this group study Abhidhamma, I have a question to ask. Can every paramattha dhamma listed in Abhidhamma texts can be observed by everyone? Ven. Pa-Auk Sayadaw of Burma is a well-known meditation teacher and very learned in both Pali commentaries and Abhidhamma. Actually, his meditation teaching is completely combined with Abhidhamma. According to him, every paramattha dhammas, every citta and cetasika including the bhavanga-citta, patisandhi-citta should be ¡¥really¡¦ observed in meditation. (We only know the terms of Abhidhamma intellectually.) He also teaches yogis to observe the namas and rupas in the past and future existences in order to really understand the law of Paticcasamupada. I would like to know if anyone of you has any thoughts about this question. With meta Tzungkuen May you be free from mental and physical suffering May you be peaceful and happy. 34253 From: robmoult Date: Mon Jun 28, 2004 7:33pm Subject: Re: Every Paramattha dhamma can be clearly observed from experience ? Hi Tzung Kuen, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Mr Tzung-Kuen Wen wrote: > Since many members in this group study Abhidhamma, I have a question to ask. Can every paramattha dhamma listed in Abhidhamma texts can be observed by everyone? > Ven. Pa-Auk Sayadaw of Burma is a well-known meditation teacher and very learned in both Pali commentaries and Abhidhamma. Actually, his meditation teaching is completely combined with Abhidhamma. > According to him, every paramattha dhammas, every citta and cetasika including the bhavanga-citta, patisandhi-citta should be ¡¥really¡¦ observed in meditation. (We only know the terms of Abhidhamma intellectually.) He also teaches yogis to observe the namas and rupas in the past and future existences in order to really understand the law of Paticcasamupada. > I would like to know if anyone of you has any thoughts about this question. > ===== Some random thoughts... The bhavanga citta is not a paramattha dhamma. It is a mixture of the paramattha dhamma citta (consciousness) and a set of cetasikas. A characteristic of continuity of mental states can be observed and from this, one can "observe" the bhavanga citta. How could one observe a patisandhi citta during meditation (other than to say that the bhavanga citta arising now is the same as our patisandhi citta)? How can one observe the water element (one of the four great essentials)? It's characteristic is to provide cohesion of the other rupas. By itself, it does not present itself to the 5 sense doors, only to the mind door. By knowing the characteristic, function, manifestation and proximate cause of each of the paramattha dhammas, we can put our observations into context and thereby "observe" the paramattha dhammas. Saying that one can observe the paramattha dhammas implies that they can be isolated from each other. Can we isolate the sweet from the sour in a soup? Metta, Rob M :-) 34254 From: Mr Tzung-Kuen Wen Date: Mon Jun 28, 2004 8:42pm Subject: ¦^ÂСG[dsg] Re: Every Paramattha dhamma can be clearly observed from experience ? Dear Rob M. Thanks for your reply. > The bhavanga citta is not a paramattha dhamma. It is a mixture of > the paramattha dhamma citta (consciousness) and a set of cetasikas. Yes, you're right. I should ask, 'could the citta and cetasikas included in a bhavangacitta could be clearly and separately observed from experience?' > A characteristic of continuity of mental states can be observed and > from this, one can "observe" the bhavanga citta. But can one observe a single bhavangacitta? A continuity of mental satates could be called as paramattha dhamma? > How could one observe a patisandhi citta during meditation (other > than to say that the bhavanga citta arising now is the same as our > patisandhi citta)? According to Pa-Auk Sayadaw, a meditator should observe clearly the patisandhicittas and maranasanna-javana-cittas in this life and in previous lives, so that he can really know the links of dependent origination. (See Talk 6 'How you see the links of Dependent-origination' in Knowing and Seeing by Pa-Auk Sayadaw available on http://www.buddhanet.net.) > How can one observe the water element (one of the four great > essentials)? It's characteristic is to provide cohesion of the > other rupas. By itself, it does not present itself to the 5 sense doors, > only to the mind door. Yes, some rupas listed in Abhidhammasanghasa can't be observed from experience. > By knowing the characteristic, function, manifestation and > proximate cause of each of the paramattha dhammas, we can put our > observations into context and thereby "observe" the paramattha dhammas. But, can one recognize clearly those different cittas in a cittavithi and know the characteristic, function, manifestation and proximate cause of those paramattha dhammas involved in each cittas ? For example, can one recognize from experience this citaa as a receiving citta, investigating citta etc. and all their cetasikas from experience? > Saying that one can observe the paramattha dhammas implies that > they can be isolated from each other. Can we isolate the sweet from the > sour in a soup? We can't isolate the sweet from the sour, but we do recognize the sweet, sour, bitter in the soup from experience. In the same way, can we recognize the function, characteristic etc. of a single citta and its cetasikas from experience ? Pa-Auk Sayadaw teaches that a meditator should observe clearly from experience every cetasikas and citta in a cittavithi of the present, past and future. It's really amazing, if it's true. with metta, Tzungkuen 34255 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Jun 28, 2004 9:07pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Relationships Hi Rob M, Interesting, this is also in Thailand. Even for the perfections! And also the way to remember the cittas with roots, and how many roots. Nina. op 28-06-2004 13:38 schreef robmoult op rob.moult@j...: > > Last night, my wife and I went to the temple to sit in on a visiting > Burmese monk's Abhidhamma class. The Burmese approach to teaching > Abhidhamma is very different. They memorize strings of Pali names for > cittas by reciting mnemonics: > Som sa di sam asan > Somanassa-sahagatam ditthigata-sampayuttam asankharikham ekam > Som sa di sam sasan > Somanassa-sahagatam ditthigata-sampayuttam sasankharikham ekam 34256 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Jun 28, 2004 9:07pm Subject: Re: [dsg] The Jhaanas and the Lay Disciple According to the Paali Suttas (15) Dear Sarah, A. Sujin explains always: when there is a moment of satipatthana, thus, understanding of nama or rupa, there are these three trainings at the same time: adhisiila-sikkhaa, adhicitta-sikkhaa, adhipaññaa-sikkhaa. There is sila, the six doors are guarded, there is firmness of citta and understanding. But B. Bodhi speaks about different contexts. Nina. op 28-06-2004 10:41 schreef sarah abbott op sarahprocterabbott@y...: From B. Bodhi. > Just below, the Buddha explains the training > in the higher virtue (adhisiila-sikkhaa) as the restraint of the > Paatimokkha, the code of monastic rules; the training in the higher mind > (adhicitta-sikkhaa), as the four jhaanas (defined by the usual formula); > and the training in the higher wisdom (adhipaññaa-sikkhaa), as either the > knowledge of the four noble truths or liberation from the taints (AN > 3:88-89/I 235-36). 34257 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Jun 28, 2004 9:07pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Rupa Questions Dear Rob M, op 28-06-2004 09:42 schreef robmoult op rob.moult@j...: > > I note that the kalapas produced by kamma do not include the rupas of > buoyancy (lahuta), plasticity (muduta) or wieldiness (kammannata). I > am okay with that. The Tiika to Vis explained this: if by kamma it would be all the time. These three rupas are rupas of changeability. They are not produced al the time by one of the three factors. When kamma produces eyesense, it does so at the three submoments of citta throughout life. This cannot be the case for the above three rupas. R: I note that the kalapas produced by citta include: > - Pure octads > - Body intimation nonad (pure octad + body intimation rupa) > - Vocal intimation decad (pure octad + vocal intimation rupa + sound) > - Pure octad + buoyancy + plasticity + wieldiness > - Body intimation nonad + buoyancy + plasticity + wieldiness > - Vocal intimation decad + buoyancy + plasticity + wieldiness > > Can I assume that the first three are only produced by those cittas > without the cetasikas of buoyancy, plasticity and wieldiness N: No, these three cetasikas arise with each sobhana citta. Thus, if kusala citta produces them they accompany citta. The cetasikas have no spevcial relation with the rupas of that name. R:and that > the last three are only produced by those cittas including the > cetasikas of buoyancy, plasticity and wieldiness? N: No, same reason. R: I note that the kalapas produced by temperature include: > - Pure octad > - Pure octad + sound > - Pure octad + buoyancy + plasticity + wieldiness > - Pure octad + sound + buoyancy + plasticity + wieldiness > R: Can I assume that the first two are only produced asynchronous of > mental states (in inanimate objects) and during those cittas without > the cetasikas of buoyancy, plasticity and wieldiness and that the > last two are only produced during those cittas including the > cetasikas of buoyancy, plasticity and wieldiness (i.e. kusala cittas)? N: No, same reason. Also in the body some rupas produced by temperature. Heat outside affects the body. Temperature can produce octad + sound, thus sound nonad. I wrote in my Tiika 79: R: I know that the first two will continue to be produced after death > (these are what a corpse is made of). At what point do the last two > stop to be produced? At the dissolution moment of the cuti citta? N: When the cuticitta falls away no more rupas produced by kamma, citta, nutrition. The rupas of the corpse are produced by temperature, just as in the case of what we call dead matter, such as a rock. R: I note that the kalapas produced by nutrition include: > - Pure octad > - Pure octad + buoyancy + plasticity + wieldiness > > Can I assume that the first is only produced during those cittas > without the cetasikas of buoyancy, plasticity and wieldiness and that > the last is only produced during those cittas including the cetasikas > of buoyancy, plasticity and wieldiness (i.e. kusala cittas)? N: See above. During cittas? Nutrition is another factor, separate from citta. Outside food is taken, consumed, permeates the body and then nutrition rupa produces other units. Also nutrition is part of a unit or kalapa. Vis 35-80 and the Tiika deal with rupas and their different classifications. They are to be found in the archives. Nina. 34258 From: robmoult Date: Mon Jun 28, 2004 10:57pm Subject: Thai Chanting Hi Nina, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > Interesting, this is also in Thailand. Even for the perfections! And also > the way to remember the cittas with roots, and how many roots. > Nina. > op 28-06-2004 13:38 schreef robmoult op rob.moult@j...: > > > > Last night, my wife and I went to the temple to sit in on a visiting > > Burmese monk's Abhidhamma class. The Burmese approach to teaching > > Abhidhamma is very different. They memorize strings of Pali names for > > cittas by reciting mnemonics: > > Som sa di sam asan > > Somanassa-sahagatam ditthigata-sampayuttam asankharikham ekam > > Som sa di sam sasan > > Somanassa-sahagatam ditthigata-sampayuttam sasankharikham ekam From time to time, my wife and I attend a chanting session in the Thai style. In this style, chanting is done in Pali, but the breaks in the chant do not occur at the breaks between words. There is a break after a fixed number of syllables, irrespective of if this is the end of the word or the middle of the word. I find it most unnerving as it makes the Pali almost unintelligible. Any idea why they chant this way? Metta, Rob M :-) 34259 From: kenhowardau Date: Mon Jun 28, 2004 11:21pm Subject: Re: Every Paramattha dhamma can be clearly observed from experience ? Hi Rob M, I am probably misreading you, but this took me by surprise: ----------------------- RM: > Saying that one can observe the paramattha dhammas implies that they can be isolated from each other. Can we isolate the sweet from the sour in a soup? > ----------------------- I agree we can't deliberately isolate paramattha dhammas. For example, we can't decree, "Let the rupa known as `sweet flavour' become the object of taste consciousness." But conditions isolate paramattha dhammas every second of the day, do they not? How would we know what is meant by the term "sweet flavour," if that rupa hadn't (on repeated occasions) been the sole object of taste consciousness? Kind regards, Ken H 34260 From: robmoult Date: Mon Jun 28, 2004 11:47pm Subject: Re: Every Paramattha dhamma can be clearly observed from experience ? Hi Ken H, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > I am probably misreading you, but this took me by surprise: > ----------------------- > RM: > Saying that one can observe the paramattha dhammas implies > that they can be isolated from each other. Can we isolate the sweet > from the sour in a soup? > > ----------------------- > > I agree we can't deliberately isolate paramattha dhammas. For > example, we can't decree, "Let the rupa known as `sweet flavour' > become the object of taste consciousness." But conditions isolate > paramattha dhammas every second of the day, do they not? How would > we know what is meant by the term "sweet flavour," if that rupa > hadn't (on repeated occasions) been the sole object of taste > consciousness? My sweet-sour was an analogy, but you raise an interesting point. There is only one rupa called flavour; the object of tongue consciousness. As a paramattha dhamma, sweet flavour rupa is not distinguished from sour flavour rupa. The way in which we analyze something depends on the purpose of the analysis. For example, a chemist may analyze water as being made up of hydrogen and oxygen while a physicist may analyze water as being made up of protons, neutrons and electrons. The Buddha's focus was on the mind and the mind perceives through the senses. The Abhidhamma analyzes rupa according to how it presents itself to the senses. To the Abhidhamma, "sweet" and "sour" are identical; they are both objects of taste consciousness (slight caveat; one can segregate objects of taste consciousness into undesireable (anittha), desireable-neutral (ittha) and extremely desireable (ati-ittha)... but that is another discussion entirely :-) ). Sweet-sour was intended as an analogy of the mental state. When through sati we are aware of a mental state, there are in fact, a multitude of cetasikas together with the citta. One cannot isolate any of the cetasikas. We "taste them as a mixture". You wrote, "But conditions isolate paramattha dhammas every second of the day, do they not?" I disagree. Paramattha dhammas never arise in isolation (though one might argue that Nibbana arises in isolation). We can understand the intellectually in isolation (Nina conveniently dedicates a chapter to each of the cetasikas in her excellent book), but we can only experience them as a mixture. Metta, Rob M :-) 34261 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Jun 29, 2004 0:06am Subject: The Jhaanas and the Lay Disciple According to the Paali Suttas (17) The Jhaanas and the Lay Disciple According to the Paali Suttas Ven. Bhikkhu Bodhi When Do the Jhaanas Become Necessary? (4) A theoretical foundation for Diighaavu's approach might be gleaned from another sutta. At AN 4:169/II 155-56, the Buddha contrasts two kinds of non-returners: one who attains final Nibbaana without exertion (asa,nkhaara-parinibbaayii), and one who attains final Nibbaana with exertion (sasa,nkhaara-parinibbaayii). The former is one who enters and dwells in the four jhaanas (described by the stock formula). The latter practises instead the "austere" meditations such as the contemplation of the foulness of the body, reflection on the repulsiveness of food, disenchantment with the whole world, perception of impermanence in all formations, and recollection of death.[37] Again, there is no categorical assertion that the latter is altogether bereft of jhaana, but the contrast of this type with one who gains the four jhaanas suggests this as a possibility. Though the possibility that there might be non-returners without jhaanas cannot be ruled out, from the Nikaayas we can elicit several reasons why we might normally expect a non-returner to have access to them. One reason is inherent in the very act of becoming a non-returner. In ascending from the stage of once-returner to that of non-returner, the meditator eradicates two fetters that had been merely weakened by the once-returner: sensual desire (kaamacchanda) and ill will (byaapaada). Now these two fetters are also the first two among the five hindrances, the defilements to be abandoned to gain the jhaanas. This suggests that by eradicating these defilements the non-returner permanently removes the main obstacles to concentration. Thus, if his mind so inclines, the non-returner should not find it difficult to enter upon the jhaanas. Another reason why non-returners should be gainers of the jhaanas, while stream-enterers and once-returners need not be so, pertains to their future destination in sa.msaara. Though all three types of disciple have escaped the plane of misery - rebirth in hell, the animal realm, and the sphere of ghosts - stream-enterers and once-returners are still liable to rebirth in the sensuous realm (kaamadhaatu), while non-returners are utterly freed from the prospect of such a rebirth. What keeps the former in bondage to the sensuous realm is the fetter of sensual desire (kaamacchanda), which remains inwardly unabandoned by them. If they succeed in attaining the jhaanas, they can suppress sensual desire (and the other mental hindrances) and thus achieve rebirth in the form or formless realms. But this is not fixed for noble disciples at the lower two stages, who normally expect only a fortunate rebirth in the human realm or the sense-sphere heavens. Non-returners, on the other hand, are so called precisely because they never again return to the sensuous realm. They have eliminated sensual desire, observe celibacy, and enjoy a high degree of facility in meditation. At death, the non-returner takes rebirth spontaneously in the form realm (generally in the Pure Abodes) and attains final Nibbaana there without ever returning from that world. ****** Notes 37. AN II 156: Idha bhikkhu asubhaanupassii kaaye viharati, aahaare pa.tikkuulasa--ii, sabbaloke anabhiratasa--ii, sabbasa,nkhaaresu aniccaanupassii, mara.nasa--aa pan'assa ajjhatta.m suupa.t.thitaa hoti. 34262 From: Herman Hofman Date: Tue Jun 29, 2004 1:15am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Relationships/Change Hi Rob, The development of the discussion has unfortunately required that I go to a book :-) The Samyutta Nikaya XXII.79 (Khajjaniya Sutta or Chewed Up) has ruppatiti rupam in the following context. "And why do you call it 'form' (rupa)? Because it is afflicted (ruppati), thus it is called 'form.' Afflicted with what? With cold & heat & hunger & thirst, with the touch of flies, mosquitoes, wind, sun, & reptiles. Because it is afflicted, it is called form. " I have also seen ruppatiti rendered as "in which there is change". Form is subject to change, it has the nature of change. You wrote: "Perception of change (watching an airplane fly across the sky) is mundane and can lead to worldly knowledge. Perception of anicca (a characteristic of paramattha dhammas) is profound and can lead to insight." I ask: Are you saying that the perception that form is inconstant cannot lead to insight? Thank you Herman 34263 From: robmoult Date: Tue Jun 29, 2004 2:16am Subject: [dsg] Re: Relationships/Change Hi Herman, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Herman Hofman" wrote: > You wrote: > "Perception of change (watching an airplane fly across the sky) is > mundane and can lead to worldly knowledge. > > Perception of anicca (a characteristic of paramattha dhammas) is > profound and can lead to insight." > > I ask: > > Are you saying that the perception that form is inconstant cannot lead > to insight? Perhaps we are having a definition problem. In my definition, the perception that form is inconstant, impermanent, arising only for an instant, momentary, transitory, etc. can lead to insight. The perception that a chicken is changing its position (crossing the road) might lead to worldly knowledge (or a bad joke :-) ), but it cannot lead to insight. In my definition, "perception of change" is not the same as "perception of impermanence". Metta, Rob M :-) 34264 From: Herman Hofman Date: Tue Jun 29, 2004 3:54am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Relationships/Change Hi Rob, Some more comments below. ============================================= Perhaps we are having a definition problem. In my definition, the perception that form is inconstant, impermanent, arising only for an instant, momentary, transitory, etc. can lead to insight. The perception that a chicken is changing its position (crossing the road) might lead to worldly knowledge (or a bad joke :-) ), but it cannot lead to insight. In my definition, "perception of change" is not the same as "perception of impermanence". ============================================== I think this is a very worthwhile clarification. Perception of impermanence can occur with any individual phenomenon, whether simple or compound (Chicken, no chicken). Perception of change always requires a comparison of at least two phenomena, coupled with a notion of some invariance despite whatever variance (chicken X here, chicken X there). The following is perhaps a bit naughty, but given the very insightful clarification above, why the persistence of the Buddhist (I think there could be a pun there) with the notion of beings (chickens) crossing the road (cuti citta) ? Was it the same Gautama that was born as the one that died? We don't get "Rocky and Bullwinkle" anymore, but I think "The Bill" might be on :-) Herman 34265 From: kenhowardau Date: Tue Jun 29, 2004 4:05am Subject: Re: Every Paramattha dhamma can be clearly observed from experience ? Hi Rob M, -------------- RM: > There is only one rupa called flavour; the object of tongue consciousness. As a paramattha dhamma, sweet flavour rupa is not distinguished from sour flavour rupa. --------------- Thank you, I stand corrected. ---------------- <. . . .> RM: > Sweet-sour was intended as an analogy of the mental state. When through sati we are aware of a mental state, there are in fact, a multitude of cetasikas together with the citta. One cannot isolate any of the cetasikas. We "taste them as a mixture". > --------------- That's interesting. When you say, "mental state" you mean citta, I assume. But citta, cetasika and rupa are all potential objects of citta. So, let me get this straight. Suppose, in a tongue-door citta- process, javana citta, accompanied by pleasant mental feeling (sukha- vedana), experiences flavour; that citta does not know pleasure, does it? It only knows flavour. Now suppose, in the following mind- door citta-viti, the said sukha-vedana is taken as the object of consciousness. Is there now an experience of pleasure? ----------------- RM: > You wrote, "But conditions isolate paramattha dhammas every second of the day, do they not?" I disagree. Paramattha dhammas never arise in isolation (though one might argue that Nibbana arises in isolation). ------------------ True. We might be talking at cross-purposes. Sense-consciousness takes, as its object, only one dhamma at a time, doesn't it? So, in that way of speaking, the sense-object dhamma has been isolated. --------------------- RM: > We can understand them intellectually in isolation (Nina conveniently dedicates a chapter to each of the cetasikas in her excellent book), but we can only experience them as a mixture. > --------------------- Sorry, I'm still not comprehending. Can you put it another way, please? (I notice that you said above, "When, *through sati* we are aware of a mental state." So perhaps you are talking about vipassana while I am talking about ordinary experience (consciousness). (?)) Ken H 34266 From: Herman Hofman Date: Tue Jun 29, 2004 4:11am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Every Paramattha dhamma can be clearly observed from experience ? Hi Rob, You wrote : =========================================================== My sweet-sour was an analogy, but you raise an interesting point. There is only one rupa called flavour; the object of tongue consciousness. As a paramattha dhamma, sweet flavour rupa is not distinguished from sour flavour rupa. The way in which we analyze something depends on the purpose of the analysis. For example, a chemist may analyze water as being made up of hydrogen and oxygen while a physicist may analyze water as being made up of protons, neutrons and electrons. The Buddha's focus was on the mind and the mind perceives through the senses. The Abhidhamma analyzes rupa according to how it presents itself to the senses. To the Abhidhamma, "sweet" and "sour" are identical; they are both objects of taste consciousness (slight caveat; one can segregate objects of taste consciousness into undesireable (anittha), desireable-neutral (ittha) and extremely desireable (ati-ittha)... but that is another discussion entirely :-) ). =============================================================== I ask: Does the Abhidhamma allow for degrees in matter? I would think that the earth element is not only hardness, but also softness, governed by the degree of its presence. What is ultraviolet as opposed to infrared if not a matter of degree? The Bill is on Herman 34267 From: Philip Date: Tue Jun 29, 2004 6:17am Subject: Right thinking (was Re: Virtues of the Buddha?) Hello all Thanks for all the feedback on this thread. One dhamma friend contacted me off-list and directed me to the Mahanama Sutta (AN XI13) http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an11-013.html Here is a passage: "There is the case where you recollect the Tathagata: 'Indeed, the Blessed One is worthy and rightly self-awakened, consummate in knowledge & conduct, well-gone, an expert with regard to the world, unexcelled as a trainer for those people fit to be tamed, the Teacher of divine & human beings, awakened, blessed.' At any time when a disciple of the noble ones is recollecting the Tathagata, his mind is not overcome with passion, not overcome with aversion, not overcome with delusion. His mind heads straight, based on the Tathagata. And when the mind is headed straight, the disciple of the noble ones gains a sense of the goal, gains a sense of the Dhamma, gains joy connected with the Dhamma. In one who is joyful, rapture arises. In one who is rapturous, the body grows calm. One whose body is calmed experiences ease. In one at ease, the mind becomes concentrated." This seems very important to me. I think of the 4 right exertions. What are "wholesome thoughts" that are developed and maintained? Is the content of the mind at the rising of these 3rd and 4th exertions not right thought? What content can be purer than recollection of the Buddha's virtues? I suppose conceit and lobha could easily creep in - would creep in - but the sutta passage encourages that we will not be overcome by passion, aversion, delusion. I am hard pressed to think of anything more wholesome to think about. Expect perhaps the Brahma-Viharas. And indeed, the reason I was asking about the virtues of the Buddha is that I was wondering just what the content of wholesome thoughts would be. We do think, and find ourselves thinking. At least I do. I aspire to investigate realities in the moment, but as Nina said in the "dustrag" thread the other day, we are worldlings and have our limits. I do find myself thinking in a much more conventional way, and am more aware of the content than I used to be. The above sutta passge seems to be in praise of consciously dwelling on a wholesome topic, with various wholesome results. A flowchart that might look like this: recollection of Tathagata -> sense of the goal -> sense of the Dhamma -> joy connected with Dhamma ->rapture -> calm -> concentration. I always seem to get restless when I get to the joy part, but it is a promising progression. In Nina's "Buddhism in Daily Life", right thinking is described more in terms of a cetasika with a specific funtion within the process of investigating realities: "When there is seeing which is nama, there is also visible object which is rupa, but only one reality at a time can be object of mindfulness. It is the function of samma-sankappa to "touch" the reality appearing at the present moment so that right understanding can investigate its characteristics.( phil's note: the same page identifies samma-sankappa as right thinking, which is vitakka, a cetasika, usually translated as "applied thought.") Right understanding needs right thinking in order to investigate the chracteristics of nama and rupa and to see realities as they are." (132) So here right thinking has got a very specific function in the process of investigating realities. It feels close to the "investigation of realities" factor of enlightenment. I appreciate this, and also appreciate right thinking referring to the content of thoughts, as in this recollection of the Buddha's virtues. How do you all see right thinking? I suppose as with so many aspects of dhamma, there are different levels, and the right thinking Nina writes about is at a deeper level? Thanks in advance for your feedback. And thanks to the dhamma friend who directed me to this very interesting sutta. Metta, Phil --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Philip" wrote: > > > > I find these days that for various reasons I am wanting to > reflect on the virtues or qualities of the Buddha, but I don't know > exactly what they are so I find myself thinking about the Brahma- > Viharas. > > What are the traditional lists, if you will, of the virtues of the > Buddha that are used in such recollections? > > Thanks in advance. And thanks in passing to Sarah and Nina for > messages that I won't be able to respond to until tomorrow. And > thanks to Christine for the fab Dhammapada links! :) > > Metta, > Phil 34268 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Jun 29, 2004 6:18am Subject: The Jhaanas and the Lay Disciple According to the Paali Suttas (18) The Jhaanas and the Lay Disciple According to the Paali Suttas Ven. Bhikkhu Bodhi When Do the Jhaanas Become Necessary? (5) The non-returner severs all connection with the sensuous realm by eliminating the fetter of sensual desire, and this establishes a certain correspondence between the non-returner and the ordinary jhaana-attainer. The texts sometimes speak of the worldling jhaana-attainer as "an outsider devoid of lust for sensual pleasures."[38] If he retains mastery over a jhaana at the time of death, his sublime kamma leads him to rebirth in the form realm, the specific plane of rebirth being determined by his degree of mastery over the jhaanas. However, while both the ordinary jhaana-attainer and the non-returner are devoid of sensual desire and bound for rebirth in a non-sensuous realm, the two are divided by deep and fundamental differences. The ordinary jhaana-attainer has not fully eliminated any fetters and thus, with a slip of mindfulness, can easily fall victim to sensuality; the non-returner, in contrast, has cut off sensual desire and ill will at the root, ensuring that they will never again arise in him. He is not reborn in the form realm merely through the wholesome kamma generated by the jhaanas, like the ordinary jhaana-attainer, but because he has eradicated the two fetters that bind even the once-returner to the sensuous realm. This difference implies still another difference concerning their long-term fate. The ordinary jhaana-attainer, after being reborn in the form realm, eventually exhausts the powerful meritorious kamma responsible for this sublime rebirth and might then take rebirth in the sensuous realm, even in the nether world. The non-returner, on the other hand, never falls away. Set firmly on the path of the Dhamma, the non-returner who is reborn in the form realm continues to develop the path without ever regressing until he attains final Nibbaana within the form realm itself.[39] ****** Notes 38. MN III 255: Baahiraka kaamesu viitaraaga. 39. See AN 4:123/II 126-28, which contrasts the worldling who attains the jhaanas with the Buddhist disciple who attains them. 34269 From: Philip Date: Tue Jun 29, 2004 6:44am Subject: [dsg] Re: The dangers of hanging around only with like-minded people Hi Herman H:> I've got another GREAT reminder for you :-) (snip) > H> You don't HAVE TO go to work!!! How good is that!! I am sure that you > can list a thousand reasons why you think you have to, but I suspect > that most of them will come down to desires/aversions. Ph: Interesting point. Actually, today I was thinking about the way I'd divided work from leisure in the previous post. And a purist would say that you don't HAVE TO have leisure time - investigation of realities can arise anywhere, anytime. But I ain't there yet. I'll stick with my unwholesome clinging to my Wednesday - my day to be alone at home once a week. And I'll stick with bread on the table for the time being, at least. ;) Metta, Phil 34270 From: robmoult Date: Tue Jun 29, 2004 6:50am Subject: Re: Every Paramattha dhamma can be clearly observed from experience ? Hi Ken H, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > RM: > Sweet-sour was intended as an analogy of the mental state. > When through sati we are aware of a mental state, there are in fact, > a multitude of cetasikas together with the citta. One cannot isolate > any of the cetasikas. We "taste them as a mixture". > > --------------- > > That's interesting. When you say, "mental state" you mean citta, I > assume. But citta, cetasika and rupa are all potential objects of > citta. > > So, let me get this straight. Suppose, in a tongue-door citta- > process, javana citta, accompanied by pleasant mental feeling (sukha- > vedana), experiences flavour; that citta does not know pleasure, > does it? It only knows flavour. Now suppose, in the following mind- > door citta-viti, the said sukha-vedana is taken as the object of > consciousness. Is there now an experience of pleasure? ===== There may be lobha-mula javana cittas in the tongue door citta process but they are not attached to the specific object (i.e. liking sweet); rather they are attached to the sense itself (taking pleasure in sensing). To quote Bhikkhu Bodhi's Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma (p163), "Just as when a gong is struck once by a baton, the gong sends forth a continuous stream of reverberations, so when one of the five sense doors has been impinged upon once by a sense object, after the five-door process has ceased the past object comes into the range at the mind door and sets off many sequences of mind- door processes. Because these cognitive processes come as the sequel to the five door process, they are known as consequent processes. They are counted fivefold by way of the five sense-door proceses which they follow. Ledi Sayadaw explains that it is in these consequent processes that distinct recognition of the object occurs; such recognition does not occur in a bare five-door process itself. An eye door process, for example, is followed first by a conformational mind-door process (tadanu-vattika manodvaravithi), which reproduces in the mind door the object just perceived in the sense-door process. Then comes a process of grasping the object as a whole (samudayagahika); then a process recognizing the colour (vannasallakkhana); then a process grasping the entity (vatthigahika); then a process recognizing the entity (vatthusallakkhana); then a process grasping the name (namagahika); then a process recognizing the name (namasallankkhana)." To extend this process, once the name has been recognized, then the feelings associated with that name are recalled. These feelings form the basis for mental proliferation (papanca). I recently saw an interesting program on Discovery channel. A man suffered brain damage in a car accident and when he came out of his coma, he was able to recognize his mother and his girlfriend but he insisted that they were look-alike imposters. Doctors discovered that the "recognizing the name" part of his brain worked fine, but that this part of the brain was connected to a separate part of the brain in which feeling associated with names were stored. In his case, the connection was broken and when his mother's face did not cause "mother feelings" to arise, the man concluded that the woman was a look-alike imposter, not his mother. Going back to your example of the object arising at the tongue door. In his preface to the PTS version of the Abhidhammatthasangaha (p35), Shwe Zan Aung comments that the "name grasping" and the "meaning grasping" processes are reversed for sound objects. However, for the tongue door, I believe that we can use Ledi Sayadaw's visible object process as a model. In other words, at the tongue-door process, there is only attachment to the stimulation of the tongue. The next step is the grasping the flavour in a set of mind-door processes, followed by the grasping of the feelings associated with the flavour. I don't think that naming takes place. If somebody out there has a copy of Ledi Sayadaw's Paramatthadipani Sangaha Maha Tika (I don't think that it has been translated), please check this detail. For example, my wife likes spicy food and I like bland food. This liking or disliking of flavour does not arise during the tongue door process. As it says in the Honeyball Sutta (Mn 18): Feeling -> Naming -> Thinking About -> Mental Profliferation ===== > > ----------------- > RM: > You wrote, "But conditions isolate paramattha dhammas every > second of the day, do they not?" I disagree. Paramattha dhammas > never arise in isolation (though one might argue that Nibbana arises > in isolation). > ------------------ > > True. We might be talking at cross-purposes. Sense-consciousness > takes, as its object, only one dhamma at a time, doesn't it? So, in > that way of speaking, the sense-object dhamma has been isolated. ===== As mentioned above, each sense-door process is followed by a large number of consequent mind-door processes (Shwe Zan Aung puts the number as "several hundred thousand"). Except for the conformal mind- door process, the object of these consequent mind-door processes is a concept, not a paramattha dhamma. ===== > > --------------------- > > RM: > We can understand them intellectually in isolation (Nina > conveniently dedicates a chapter to each of the cetasikas in her > excellent book), but we can only experience them as a mixture. > > --------------------- > > Sorry, I'm still not comprehending. Can you put it another way, > please? > (I notice that you said above, "When, *through sati* we are aware of > a mental state." So perhaps you are talking about vipassana while > I am talking about ordinary experience (consciousness). (?)) ===== Ken H, are you trying to trap me again!?! One doesn't need vipassana (formal meditation, heaven forbid!) to have sati (mindfulness) of the present moment :-) You sly devil :-) What do you mean by "ordinary experience"? From anybody else, I would take it at face value, but in your case, I smell a trap :-) :-) :-) Metta, Rob M :-) 34271 From: robmoult Date: Tue Jun 29, 2004 6:58am Subject: [dsg] Re: Every Paramattha dhamma can be clearly observed from experience ? Hi Herman, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Herman Hofman" wrote: > I ask: Does the Abhidhamma allow for degrees in matter? I would think > that the earth element is not only hardness, but also softness, governed > by the degree of its presence. > > What is ultraviolet as opposed to infrared if not a matter of degree? > > The Bill is on There are degrees, but they are not important to the Abhidhamma. Let's go back to basics. The purpose of the analysis of rupa is to understand the senses, not to create a model of matter itself. If something is soft or hard, it is still impacts the body-sense. Gradiations of softness or hardness are not important if we are focusing on sense stimulation. Softness sense stimulation and hardness sense stimulation are equivalent in the eyes of the Abhidhamma (there are some subtlities of anittha / ittha / ati- ittha, but that is a digression). I am curious... What is this thing, "The Bill"? My guess is that it is a TV show that has not yet found its way to Malaysia. Metta, Rob M :-) 34272 From: Bhikkhu Samahita Date: Tue Jun 29, 2004 2:39am Subject: The Hindrances ! Friends: There are these 5 mental Hindrances: 1: Sense-Desire 2: Ill-Will 3: Lethargy-&-Laziness 4: Restlessness-&-Regret 5: Doubt-&-Uncertainty These block vision of reality, create ignorance and hinder all progress towards peace, freedom & bliss. What Causes these 5 mental hindrances ? & What Cures these 5 mental hindrances ? Irrational attention to the attractive aspect makes desire arise & grow. Rational attention to the disgusting feature prevents & ceases desire. Irrational attention to the repulsive aspect makes ill-will arise & grow. Rational attention to universal friendliness prevents & ceases ill-will. Unnoticed boredom & drowsiness make lethargy-&-laziness arise & grow. Initiative, launching & endurance prevent & cease lethargy-&-laziness. Unnoticed mental agitation makes restlessness-&-regret arise & grow. Mental calming & bodily calming prevent & cease restlessness-&-regret. Irrationally neglecting the causes makes doubt-&-uncertainty arise & grow. Rational attention to the causes prevents & ceases doubt-&-uncertainty. These are the causes & the cures of the 5 mental hindrances... --oo0oo-- What Buddha actually said about this in detail: http://uk.geocities.com/bhikkhu_samahita/Canon/Sutta/AN/AN.I.3-4.html All yours in the Dhamma. Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. http://groups.msn.com/DirectDhamma/ http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Buddha-Direct/ http://www.smartgroups.com/groups/TrueDhamma 34273 From: Herman Hofman Date: Tue Jun 29, 2004 7:09am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: The dangers of hanging around only with like-minded people Thanks for your post, Philip, Ph: Interesting point. Actually, today I was thinking about the way I'd divided work from leisure in the previous post. And a purist would say that you don't HAVE TO have leisure time - investigation of realities can arise anywhere, anytime. H: Can it ? You have to ask yourself very seriously, as I do, why, if investigation of realities can arise anywhere, anytime, the Buddha-to-be felt it was necessary to leave his family, wife, baby, social obligations, and comforts, all to sleep on the leaves of the forest floor? What mechanism is at play when middle-class laity embraces the words of the truly renouncing hero from the comfort of a high bed? "The Bill" has well and truly finished. I forgot to ask my wife what it was about this time :-). Herman 34274 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Jun 29, 2004 10:35am Subject: Perseverance in Dhamma, Ch 6, no 7 Perseverance in Dhamma, Ch 6, no 7 We read in the ³Satipatthånasutta² that these four Applications are the only way for reaching the right path, for the attainment of nibbåna. The Commentary states: ³The Real Eightfold Path is called the right path. Verily, this preliminary, mundane Way of the Arousing of Mindfulness made to become (grown or cultivated) is conducive to the realisation of the Supramundane Way.² While satipatthåna is being developed, the Path is still mundane, but eventually it leads to enlightenment. At the moment of enlightenment the eightfold Path, paññå and the accompanying factors, have become supramundane, lokuttara. The Buddha, in his great compassion, taught us that there is dhamma at this moment in our daily life. All the sections of the four Applications pertain to daily life and they can remind us to develop understanding of nåma and rúpa at this moment, in the midst of our activities. We should not be neglectful because life is short and we do not know when we will have an opportunity to listen again to the true Dhamma. Acharn Sujin exhorted us to have patience and not to expect an immediate result of the development of understanding. She said: ³If we know how much ignorance we have accumulated it will prevent us from trying to hasten the development of paññå. The Abhidhamma helps us to understand that there are many processes of cittas arising and falling away very rapidly. When we see visible object, not only seeing arises in that process, but also many other cittas. Seeing is closely followed by the javana-cittas (impulsion) that are either kusala cittas or akusala cittas. When we do not apply ourselves to dåna (generosity), síla (morality) or bhåvanå (mental development), the javana-cittas are akusala cittas. The eye-door process is followed by a mind-door process with javana-cittas that are kusala cittas or akusala cittas. Countless processes of cittas with akusala javana-cittas arise, but we do not realize this. Kusala citta arises seldom and thus we can understand that it must take a long time to develop paññå. Right understanding can be developed of one object at a time so that there can be firm and clear understanding of nåma and rúpa. When insight knowledge arises there is no doubt that ŒI¹ does not exist, that there are only different elements arising and falling away.² The understanding that ³there is no person², only paramattha dhammas arising and falling away, does not mean that we should not care for other people. On the contrary, when we have less clinging to the ³self² kusala can become purer. We have accumulated so much selfish clinging and therefore we may easily confuse mettå and attachment. We may perform kind deeds in order to be liked by others. We like to have friends so that we do not feel lonely. When we develop genuine mettå we shall cling less to people. When kusala citta with mettå arises there is true friendship, and there is no need to long for kindness from others in return. ***** Nina. 34275 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Jun 29, 2004 10:35am Subject: Wheel sutta corrected This is a correction of the post last week, June 25, about the Wheel sutta. The Wheel Sutta. Cattaarimaani bhikkhave, cakkaani, four (pl) fold/ monks/ wheels these are the four wheels, monks, yehi samannaagataana.m devamanussaana.m catucakka.m vattati, by which/ possessed/ for devas and men/ four wheels/ rolls and for devas and men who possess these, fourfold prosperity is rolling on. yehi samannaagataa devamanussaa of which/ possessed/ devas and men The devas and men who are possessed of these nacirasseva mahantatta.m vepullatta.m paapu.nanti bhogesu. in no long time/ greatness/ abundance / attain/ /in prosperity reach in no long time greatness and abundance in prosperity. Katamaani cattaari? which ones/the four? Which are the four? Patiruupa/desa/vaaso, sappurisa/avassayo suitable/region/living noble persons/association Living in a suitable place, association with noble persons, atta/sammaa/pa.nidhi/, pubbe ca kata/pu~n~nataa- self/right/ aspiration/ formerly/ and/ done/ meritorious deeds the establishing of oneself in the right course, and having formerly done deeds of merit. imaani kho, bhikkhave, cattaari cakkaani, these/indeed/ monks/ four/ wheels, These are truly, monks, the four wheels, yehi samannaagataana.m devamanussaana.m catucakka.m vattati, and the devas and men who are possessed of these yehi samannaagataa devamanussaa nacirasseva mahantatta.m vepullatta.m paapu.nanti bhogesuu>ti. reach in no long time greatness and abundance in prosperity. Verse: Patiruupe vase dese, Suitable/live/in a place A man should live in a suitable place ariya/mitta/karo siyaa; noble/friend/making/ there may be have noble friendship; sammaa/pa.nidhi/sampanno, right/aspiration/endowed be well established in the right course; pubbe pu~n~nakato naro; formerly/merit done/ a man and have formerly done deeds of merit; dha~n~na.m dhana.m yaso kitti, grain/ wealth/ honour/fame grain, wealth, honour, fame, sukha~nceta.m adhivattatii>ti. happiness/and/this/roll and happiness come to him in abundance. Commentary: as to association with noble persons, the Co remarks: drawing near and sitting close to the Buddha etc. N: this means: listening to noble persons. Co: As to right establishing of oneself: someone may have many activities and has no confidence in kusala, but then he may have abandoned this lack of confidence and applied himself to all good qualities such as confidence. As to meritorious deeds formerly done, this means that someone has accumulated kusala kamma. This is the subject of this sutta: because of kusala kamma performed by the citta that is accompanied by paññaa is the condition for someone to enter a suitable country, to meet a noble person and thus he will become well established in the right course. As to sukha~nceta.m adhivattatii: that happiness will be abundant and overwhelming for him. Nina. 34276 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Jun 29, 2004 10:35am Subject: Intro to Vis. XIV, 84 Intro to Vis. XIV, 84 As the Visuddhimagga states, there are eight types of kusala cittas of the sense sphere. The Visuddhimagga illustrates, to begin with, the first and the second type. These are: 1) accompained by pleasant feeling, connected with wisdom, unprompted somanassa-sahagata.m ñaa.na-sampayutta.m, asa²nkhaarikam eka.m 2) accompained by pleasant feeling, connected with wisdom, prompted somanassa-sahagata.m ñaa.na-sampayutta.m, sasa²nkhaarikam eka.m **** These types of citta are not abstract categories, and the Visuddhimagga gives us examples from daily life. The Tiika elaborates on these and gives more explanations of the conditions for these cittas. It mentions again the conditions of the place where one lives, the time when one lives, and these have to be favorable. Moreover, friendship with a noble person is most important. One has to develop the enlightenment factors and the Tiika mentions the enlightenment factor of rapture (piiti) that is a condition for the first type of kusala citta to be accompanied by pleasant feeling, and also the enlightenment factor of (dhammavicaya, pañña) which is a condition for the kusala citta to be accompanied by pañña. As we have seen (in my Intro to Vis. 83), We read in the ³Expositor² (p. 101) about the conditions for the enlightenment factor of Investigation of Dhamma: As to cleansing of things and substances, this is personal cleanliness of the body, of clothes and dwelling, as the Commentary to the Satipa.t.thaanasutta explains. Equalizing of the faculties pertains to the balancing of the faculties of confidence, energy, mindfulness, concentration and wisdom. Thus we see that also physical factors are conditions for wisdom. We read in the Co. to the Abhidhammattha Sangaha (T.A. p. 27): <...But here the accompaniment of happiness is due to such causes as strong faith, gaining insight, having someone to receive the requisites, and so on...> We read about the kusala citta that is unprompted in the Co to Abh. Sangaha (T.A. p. 27,28): Seeing the value of kusala is stressed time and again as a condition for the arising of kusala citta. Learning about the different ways of kusala can be a condition for the arising of kusala citta more often. It helps one not to overlook opportunities for kusala as they occur in daily life. The Tiika refers to the ten bases of meritorious actions, the ways of kusala that can be performed by one of the eight kusala cittas of the sense sphere. They are mentioned by the Expositor (p. 210, 211): charity, sila (this includes observing precepts, the monk¹s sila, etc. and also the guarding of the sense-doors), mental development (including samatha and vipassana), paying respect, dutifulness and helping, sharing of one¹s merit, appreciation of others¹ kusala, explaining the Dhamma, listening to the Dhamma, rectifying one¹s views. The difference between the first type of kusala citta and the second type which is prompted can remind us that there are different degrees of accumulated sobhana cetasikas. People have different degrees of confidence in kusala, of generosity and of other qualities. We read in the Visuddhimagga that a person may give . This example indicates that there are different degrees of kusala and that these are conditioned by past accumulations. Nobody can direct the citta to be in this way or that way. **** Nina. 34277 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Jun 29, 2004 10:35am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Every Paramattha dhamma can be clearly observed from experience ? Dear Rob M and Tzung Kuen, op 29-06-2004 04:33 schreef robmoult op rob.moult@j...:> > The bhavanga citta is not a paramattha dhamma. It is a mixture of the > paramattha dhamma citta (consciousness) and a set of cetasikas. a characteristic of continuity of mental states can be observed and > from this, one can "observe" the bhavanga citta. N: I know what you mean. You realize that there is no break between cittas, and thus you conclude that there is continuity. And that is the function of bhavanga citta. It keeps the continuity in a life. It is a citta, arising and falling away in between processes. As you know, citta and cetasika are paramattha dhammas. They each have their own inalterable characteristic. We can call them citta or cetasika, or give them other names, however, they are realities each with their own characteristic. Also bhavangacitta is a citta, with its own characteristic, function, etc. It is paramattha dhamma. It arises and falls away. N: As to, one can "observe" the bhavanga citta, it depends what one means by observing. It can be thinking or intellectual understanding by inference. R: How could one observe a patisandhi citta during meditation (other > than to say that the bhavanga citta arising now is the same as our > patisandhi citta)? N: Yes, right. I also see it that way, also what you say about cohesion. R: By knowing the characteristic, function, manifestation and proximate > cause of each of the paramattha dhammas, we can put our observations > into context and thereby "observe" the paramattha dhammas. > > Saying that one can observe the paramattha dhammas implies that they > can be isolated from each other. Can we isolate the sweet from the > sour in a soup? N: The trouble is in the word observe. Rob, you put it therefore between brackets. We could say pariyatti, intellectual understanding and considering dhammas conditions pa.tipatti, the arising of sati and pañña. But how could we control which dhammas appear, and how could we control of which dhammas there is awareness? We do not isolate different dhammas, but only one at atime can be object of sati. It can be rupa, citta or a cetasika. They have characteristics appearing one at a time. Seven rupas appear all the time through the senses. Little by little we can learn more about them when they appear. This is the way to understand rupa, the reality that does not know anything, different from nama. Very essential. The hardness is not the nama that experiences. The sound is not hearing. This is the beginning, but knowing the difference between nama and rupa is indispensable. If we say: observe it seems as if there is I who is observing, instead of just dhammas that arise because of their own conditions. And who is aware and understands? Only a dhamma. We cannot tell ahead of time which rupas are going to appear, and to what degree pañña will develop. And which rupas will be known at which stage of development. When time comes we shall know. All the 28 rupas are realities, but not everybody realizes them all. The main thing: we should not take them for mine. We should not have any expectations, it all depends on the accumulated pañña what will be known. It does not matter. , reflection on realities is a kind of meditation, reflection on a sutta is meditation. This is fine. When I write an intro to Vis. this is a kind of meditation. But I would not set a certain time or limit the time to be aware of any dhamma appearing in daily life. They are everywhere, not just in a special place or at a certain time. Hardness here, hardness there, just the same. They appear naturally, just as they are. But people are afraid to be distracted in daily life. I would say: do not worry, you will see for yourself what happens when you do not restrict awareness, but just let sati arise because of its own conditions, in its own time. And to know each citta, cetasika, rupa, of past, present, future: we are not the Buddha. If someone believes he can it may be only thinking. Who can tell? But we should not say it is impossible to know heartbase or bhavangacitta. They are realities, and it depends on a person's accumulated pañña what can be realized. Nina. P.S. I cannot continue this interesting thread now, going away tomorrow for four days. Thus, next week. 34278 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Jun 29, 2004 10:35am Subject: Re: ???[dsg] Re:dsg] Bodhi: The Jhaanas and the Lay Disciple According to the Paali Suttas (1) Dear Tzung-Kuen Just selecting one point and a few remarks. op 29-06-2004 03:56 schreef Mr Tzung-Kuen Wen op s4060239@s...: > If we chose to practice metta bhavana, we can cause cittas accompanied by > metta to arise. Since the flow of consciousness is also a conditioned dhamma, > we could change it to some degree, otherwise there is no use of moral precept > (sila), charity (dana) and mental development (bhavana). Don¹t we need to > control our verbal, bodily and mental behavior in order to follow the teaching > of the Buddha? N: I learn a lot from Vis and Tiika about all the favorable conditions for kusala citta. Many are in the past (see Wheel sutta) but also now there are many occasions for kusala citta. Knowing about these, such as the ten puñña kiriya vatthus, does help. Reflecting on the Brahma viharas to be practised in daily life does help. Having confidence in the Triple ~Gem, good friendship, all these things help. But this does not mean that we can direct the citta arising at this moment to be metta, upekkha and so on. We would wish to, but impossible. But meanwhile, we go on developing kusala and right understanding as much as we are able to. Nina. 34279 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Jun 29, 2004 10:35am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Wisdom and the factors of enlightenment Hello Philip, op 29-06-2004 00:49 schreef Philip op plnao@j...: > the first phrase I came > across was this "making the basis clean", as my edition has it. I > told Naomi about it, and she said "I told you so." She'd often said > that if I meditate when the room is a mess it reflects my messy mind > and makes the whole exercise pointless. I think she was right. :o) N: Very good example. Ph: BTW, my edition (Nanamoli Bhikkhu trans) has "persons without > understanding" rather than "unintelligent persons." Don't you think > the former might be better? N: It is a matter of translation, sometimes it is said foolish. It is as you say, no understanding. > Ph: I like the way the conditions for each factor contain advice about > cultivating (frequenting) certain kinds of people and avoiding > others. I think that is very realistic and practical and it has > inspired me *not* to accept my co-workers' constant invitations to > join them for drinks at a notorious bar where they go to get drunk > and "chat up" boozy women. I was starting to waver but I will stay > home and "chat up" my DSG friends instead. (And Naomi, of > course.) :) N: I like your vivid example. Conditions just work out for you. Think of the Wheel sutta: good friendship. >Ph: What does Vis 84 mean?In my edition this section is in Chapter > IV, 54. N: Sorry: Vis. XIV, 84, Larry just posted it. The previous one we did with Larry, Vis. XIV, 83, was the first one about the eight types of kusala citta of the sense-sphere. Icaro just typed them out. this is the second one. You can jump right in. A good idea if you and others ask more questions. Any basic question, you call it a beginner's Q. , about this important subject is most wellcome. Mostly I try to write an intro to link the texts to daily life, so that people see that the subject is not about abstract notions, so that we do not forget the goal of our study. With this I also remind myself. Ph: "When we have performed kusala kamma we can extend merit to others that are able to appreciate our good deeds, and this is a form of dana, of generosity. It is beneficial to do this, because at such a moment the citta is accompanied by metta. We think of the well being of someone else, we give him the opportunity to have kusala citta with appreciation of our kusala.... I don't know if this kind of "extending merit" would be included in "transference of merit", technically speaking, N: Yes, the same. We like to help others to have more kusala citta, and we also have kusala citta when appreciating someone else's kusala. Giving a helpful link, or writing out the eight types of kusala citta, etc. We can appreciate that, so, the citta is kusala citta. It is a way of kusala that is simple, but we should know about it. Ph quotes: However, we should not extend merit out of fear that there is someone who could avenge himself and cause misfortune. The development of metta towards those we meet in this life is more beneficial than the extension of merit to an avenger we have never seen and whom we do not know." N: This may not be clear. Some people are afraid of a deceased one who may be angry with us. It may be a kind of superstition. Nina. 34280 From: christine_forsyth Date: Tue Jun 29, 2004 2:13pm Subject: Re: The Hindrances ! Bhikkhu Samahita Venerable Sir, I wonder if you could clarify for me whether your terms 'irrational attention' and 'rational attention' are often also translated as 'unwise' attention (from the Pali 'ayoniso manasikara') and 'wise' attention (from 'yoniso manasikara')? It certainly is irrational to be unwise - though, of course, there is no real choice in that moment. with metta and respect, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Bhikkhu Samahita wrote: > Friends: > There are these 5 mental Hindrances: > 1: Sense-Desire > 2: Ill-Will > 3: Lethargy-&-Laziness > 4: Restlessness-&-Regret > 5: Doubt-&-Uncertainty > These block vision of reality, create ignorance and > hinder all progress towards peace, freedom & bliss. > > What Causes these 5 mental hindrances ? > & > What Cures these 5 mental hindrances ? > > Irrational attention to the attractive aspect makes desire arise & grow. > Rational attention to the disgusting feature prevents & ceases desire. > > Irrational attention to the repulsive aspect makes ill-will arise & grow. > Rational attention to universal friendliness prevents & ceases ill-will. > > Unnoticed boredom & drowsiness make lethargy-&-laziness arise & grow. > Initiative, launching & endurance prevent & cease lethargy-&- laziness. > > Unnoticed mental agitation makes restlessness-&-regret arise & grow. > Mental calming & bodily calming prevent & cease restlessness-&- regret. > > Irrationally neglecting the causes makes doubt-&-uncertainty arise & grow. > Rational attention to the causes prevents & ceases doubt-&- uncertainty. > > These are the causes & the cures of the 5 mental hindrances... > > --oo0oo-- > What Buddha actually said about this in detail: > http://uk.geocities.com/bhikkhu_samahita/Canon/Sutta/AN/AN.I.3- 4.html 34281 From: Philip Date: Tue Jun 29, 2004 3:47pm Subject: The one root of ill-will is delusion? ( was Re: The Hindrances ! Hello Bhikkhu Samahita, and all Bh. S> Irrational attention to the repulsive aspect makes ill-will arise & grow. > Rational attention to universal friendliness prevents & ceases ill- will. Ph: I was surprised recently to find this when reading Buddhaghosa's commentary on the Right View Sutta: "As to root: Killing living beings has two roots, by way of hate and delusion; taking what is not given, by way of hate and delusion or by way of greed and delusion; misconduct, by way of greed and delusion; false speech, by way of hate and delusion or by way of greed and delusion; likewise for malicious speech and gossip; harsh speech, by way of hate and delusion. *Covetousness has one root, by way of delusion; likewise ill will* Wrong view has two roots, by way of greed and delusion." (end quote) This is referring to ill-will as one of the 10 courses of unwholesome kamma rather than the hindrance of ill-will, but I suppose the root would be the same. I had thought that ill-will would have both delusion and aversion as roots, and this aversion is suggested in the Bhikkhu's "irrational attention to the repulsive." But according to Buddhaghosa above, ill- will has a root in delusion only. It does not have hate (aversion) as a root. It reminds me of the T shirt that was popular in the 80's : Racism is Ignorance. Is anyone else surprised by this? Metta, Phil --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Bhikkhu Samahita wrote: > Friends: > There are these 5 mental Hindrances: > 1: Sense-Desire > 2: Ill-Will > 3: Lethargy-&-Laziness > 4: Restlessness-&-Regret > 5: Doubt-&-Uncertainty > These block vision of reality, create ignorance and > hinder all progress towards peace, freedom & bliss. > > What Causes these 5 mental hindrances ? > & > What Cures these 5 mental hindrances ? 34282 From: Herman Hofman Date: Tue Jun 29, 2004 3:59pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Every Paramattha dhamma can be clearly observed from experience ? Hi Rob, Last things first :-) You're quite right, The Bill is a TV show. It is a very long-running BBC cops-on-the-beat series, that I hear snippets of, as I sit in the next room and ponder this rupa business. I'll accept what you say about Abhidhamma not being about creating a model of matter. But wouldn't degrees become important when quantitative change brings about qualitative change? For example, a gentle touch could turn from a pleasant sensation to an unpleasant one given more pressure, couldn't it? Or are pleasant and unpleasant bodily sensations also considered the same? ( I just realized that this is probably what the ittha / anittha stuff refers to. If so, sorry :-)) Thanks Herman > I ask: Does the Abhidhamma allow for degrees in matter? I would think > that the earth element is not only hardness, but also softness, governed > by the degree of its presence. > > What is ultraviolet as opposed to infrared if not a matter of degree? > There are degrees, but they are not important to the Abhidhamma. Let's go back to basics. The purpose of the analysis of rupa is to understand the senses, not to create a model of matter itself. If something is soft or hard, it is still impacts the body-sense. Gradiations of softness or hardness are not important if we are focusing on sense stimulation. Softness sense stimulation and hardness sense stimulation are equivalent in the eyes of the Abhidhamma (there are some subtlities of anittha / ittha / ati- ittha, but that is a digression). I am curious... What is this thing, "The Bill"? My guess is that it is a TV show that has not yet found its way to Malaysia. Metta, Rob M :-) 34283 From: robmoult Date: Tue Jun 29, 2004 4:53pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Every Paramattha dhamma can be clearly observed from experience ? Hi Herman, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Herman Hofman" wrote: > I'll accept what you say about Abhidhamma not being about creating a > model of matter. But wouldn't degrees become important when quantitative > change brings about qualitative change? For example, a gentle touch > could turn from a pleasant sensation to an unpleasant one given more > pressure, couldn't it? > > Or are pleasant and unpleasant bodily sensations also considered the > same? ( I just realized that this is probably what the ittha / anittha > stuff refers to. If so, sorry :-)) ===== You are correct, no need to be sorry about being correct :-) Pleasant bodily sensations and unpleasant bodily sensations are both bodily sensations. The Buddha never said that we should only give up unpleasant bodily sensations. One of the ten perfections (paramis) is khanti. This is often translated as patience, forbearance or tolerance. However, part of the parami involves cultivating khanti toward both unpleasant and pleasant objects. How does one cultivate patience toward pleasant objects? By not being drawn into them! Anittha, ittha and ati-ittha are inherent characteristics of rupa (remember that the relevance of rupa in the Abhidhamma is as a sense object). When there are attachment-rooted javana cittas toward an object that is inherently anittha (i.e. a masochist liking pain), then this is sannavipallasa (perversion of perception). When there is aversion-rooted javana cittas toward an object that is inherently ati- ittha, this is also sannavipallasa (interestingly, the registration cittas which would normally be accompanied with joy because of the ati-ittha object, are now accompanied by equanimity because aversion and joy cannot be neighbours; they must be separated by equanimity). Metta, Rob M :-) 34284 From: robmoult Date: Tue Jun 29, 2004 5:04pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Rupa Questions Hi Nina, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > R: I note that the kalapas produced by citta include: > > - Pure octads > > - Body intimation nonad (pure octad + body intimation rupa) > > - Vocal intimation decad (pure octad + vocal intimation rupa + sound) > > - Pure octad + buoyancy + plasticity + wieldiness > > - Body intimation nonad + buoyancy + plasticity + wieldiness > > - Vocal intimation decad + buoyancy + plasticity + wieldiness > > > > Can I assume that the first three are only produced by those cittas > > without the cetasikas of buoyancy, plasticity and wieldiness > N: No, these three cetasikas arise with each sobhana citta. Thus, if kusala > citta produces them they accompany citta. The cetasikas have no spevcial > relation with the rupas of that name. > R:and that > > the last three are only produced by those cittas including the > > cetasikas of buoyancy, plasticity and wieldiness? > N: No, same reason. Thanks, I just read Ledi Sayadaw's Patthanuddesa Dipani and he says the same thing. He explains that when the elements of the body are not working harmoniously (i.e. one is sick), one tends to produce cittaja rupas without buoyancy, plasticity and wieldiness. Metta, Rob M :-) 34285 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Jun 29, 2004 9:07pm Subject: Perseverance in Dhamma, Ch 6, no 8 Perseverance in Dhamma, Ch 6, no 8 Acharn Sujin and all the friends I met in the Foundation building were very earnest in listening, studying and explaining the Dhamma, and this earnestness permeated the development of paññå, mettå and all other good qualities in their daily lives. The sessions in the Foundation were characterized by a friendly, informal atmosphere. The podium established in the main hall was not used and we were all sitting close to each other, just like in a family circle. People were interested in what I was doing in the Netherlands. I told them about the Internet, and my Visuddhimagga and Pali study. Acharn Sujin was assisted by others who encouraged me all the time to continue asking personal questions on the development of satipatthåna. Acharn Sujin asked me whether I take kusala and akusala for self, and I answered that I do. She said; ³When we have no understanding of realities, it is always ŒI¹. ŒI would like to have more kusala, how can I be better¹. Nobody can prevent thinking in this way, but one should understand that such moments are not self. Knowing in which way understanding is developed is most important.² At the Foundation there are always people caring for others. On weekends when most of the sessions take place, kind people bring food for everybody. Acharn Sujin and her sister Khun Jid discussed at length the luncheon menu in the restaurant where they had invited us. This seems a trivial matter, but it demonstrates their loving care and kind intention to make things as agreeable and pleasant as possible for all of us. They show us how satipatthåna and all kinds of kusala can be developed in daily life in a natural way. Acharn Sujin never tires of performing kusala, and, in particular, the explanation of the Dhamma. She said that feeling tired shows clinging to ³self². During my last day in Bangkok she encouraged me, saying: ³When you perform more kusala your body will become stronger.² A shoot of the Bodhitree was planted in the grounds of the Foundation. These shoots collected in Bodhgaya usually do not grow, but this one thrives very well and is now a beautiful tree. The well kept surroundings of the building are very conducive to personal conversations on Dhamma and contemplation on the words of the Buddha. Acharn Sujin reminded us time and again to have patience, courage and perseverance in the development of right understanding of realities. Her words, ³Is there any understanding at this moment² still resound in my thoughts. She encouraged us, saying, ³Begin again, begin again². Sati can begin to be aware of whatever appears through one of the six doorways, even though the truth is not yet directly realized. To the extent understanding grows our confidence in the Triple Gem becomes stronger. We can have confidence in the Path we have to continue developing with courage and perseverance. Mindfulness of realities is the highest respect we can pay to the Buddha. I am most grateful to Acharn Sujin and all my friends for the reminders of satipatthåna and for their good example of practising the Dhamma in daily life. Bangkok, February 2004. (Conclusion, all will be on zolag) ***** Nina 34286 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Jun 29, 2004 9:07pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Every Paramattha dhamma can be clearly observed from experience ? Dear Rob M, op 29-06-2004 15:50 schreef robmoult op rob.moult@j...: > > For example, my wife likes spicy food and I like bland food. This > liking or disliking of flavour does not arise during the tongue door > process. N: Even before knowing what something is, in a sense-door process, javanacittas with like or dislike may arise. This is by accumulations. I gave the example of a child liking a coloured balloon, even though it does not know what it is. Just in a hurry to go off, Nina. 34287 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Jun 29, 2004 9:07pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Right thinking (was Re: Virtues of the Buddha?) Hello Philip, op 29-06-2004 15:17 schreef Philip op plnao@j...: > How do you all see right thinking? I suppose as with so many > aspects of dhamma, there are different levels, and the right thinking > Nina writes about is at a deeper level? N: Different levels. Level of samatha, a meditation subject. And see above: of the eightfold Path, in satipatthana. Mahanama was an ariyan and could have access concentration with the Recollection of the Buddha. With such degree of understanding confidence is unshakable, very strong. Nina. 34288 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Jun 29, 2004 9:07pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Every Paramattha dhamma can be clearly observed from experience ? Hi Herman, op 29-06-2004 13:11 schreef Herman Hofman op hhofman@t...: > I ask: Does the Abhidhamma allow for degrees in matter? I would think > that the earth element is not only hardness, but also softness, governed > by the degree of its presence. N: Right. Evenso heat and cold: just different degrees of the element of heat. Nina 34289 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Jun 29, 2004 9:07pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Thai Chanting Hi Rob M, No idea, I haven't heard it. Nina op 29-06-2004 07:57 schreef robmoult op rob.moult@j...: > There is a > break after a fixed number of syllables, irrespective of if this is > the end of the word or the middle of the word. > > I find it most unnerving as it makes the Pali almost unintelligible. > Any idea why they chant this way? 34290 From: Philip Date: Tue Jun 29, 2004 10:19pm Subject: Re: Perseverance in Dhamma, Ch 6, no 8 Hello Nina Thank you for this series, Nina. It has been straight forward and encouraging. I will be rereading it. N: > Acharn Sujin asked me whether I take kusala and akusala for self, and I > answered that I do. She said; ³When we have no understanding of realities, > it is always ŒI¹. ŒI would like to have more kusala, how can I be better¹. > Nobody can prevent thinking in this way, but one should understand that such > moments are not self. Knowing in which way understanding is developed is > most important.² Ph: When you answered "I do" did you mean always, or most of the time, or at times? Are you being very modest? I can see that it is best to be modest, but I would be encouraged if I read, for example, that you see kusala and akusala as not-self quite often! After all, I am reading your books. I expect RESULTS from my teachers, you know! just joking :) N: > At the Foundation there are always people caring for others. On weekends > when most of the sessions take place, kind people bring food for everybody. > Acharn Sujin and her sister Khun Jid discussed at length the luncheon menu > in the restaurant where they had invited us. This seems a trivial matter, > but it demonstrates their loving care and kind intention to make things as > agreeable and pleasant as possible for all of us. They show us how > satipatthåna and all kinds of kusala can be developed in daily life in a > natural way Ph: This is a very helpful reminder of down-to-earth kusala in daily life. I sometimes get irritated by the way Japanese friends and students always want to talk about food, and ask about one's likes and dislikes related to food, food, food - it seems obsessive at times. But thanks to the above I think I will be able to see through to the good intentions that lie behind all the talk about food that goes on in Japan. There is concern about the other's well-being. It is not just about aversion and attachment the way I had seen it. N: > Acharn Sujin never tires of performing kusala, and, in > particular, the explanation of the Dhamma. She said that feeling tired shows > clinging to ³self². During my last day in Bangkok she encouraged me, saying: > ³When you perform more kusala your body will become stronger.² > A shoot of the Bodhitree was planted in the grounds of the Foundation. These > shoots collected in Bodhgaya usually do not grow, but this one thrives very > well and is now a beautiful tree. Ph: This is very encouraging on a lazy feeling rainy season day. I will turn off the computer soon, do housework, go for a walk in the park and then come back and study Japanese. N: > Acharn Sujin reminded us time and again to have patience, courage and > perseverance in the development of right understanding of realities. Her > words, ³Is there any understanding at this moment² still resound in my > thoughts. She encouraged us, saying, ³Begin again, begin again². Ph: It is never too late to begin again. More encouragement. Are there any recordings of K Sujin talking together with DSG members or other people in English? I would like to have the opportunity to transcribe some conversations the way I have with Rob K's. Hearing Dhamma discussed might have even more encouraging power than reading it off the page. Might. I don't have enough experience to say. Thanks again for this series, Nina. And, in passing, thanks for your answer to my question about right thinking. Metta, Phil 34291 From: norakat147 Date: Tue Jun 29, 2004 10:37pm Subject: SATIPATTHANA BASICS - BUDDHAS CENTRAL TEACHING excerpt from Maha Satipatthana Suttanta, Pali Text Society 11. And how, bhikkhus, does a brother as to the feelings, continue to consider the feelings? Herein, O bhikkhus, is a brother when affected by a feeling of pleasure, aware of it, reflecting: `I feel a pleasurable feeling.' So, too, is he aware when affected by a painful feeling, or by a neutral feeling, or by a pleasant or painful or neutral feeling concerning material things, or by a pleasant or painful or neutral feeling concerning spiritual things. So does he, as to feelings, continue to consider feeling, both internally and externally (note: possible interpretation is to observe outward display of feelings through gesture and action on other people), or internally and externally together. (I think the next part is important …) He keeps on considering how the feelings are something that comes to be, or again he keeps on considering how the feelings are something that passes away, or he keeps on considering their coming to be with their passing away. Or again, with the consciousness: `There is feeling,' mindfulness thereof becomes thereby established far enough for the purposes of knowledge and of self-collectedness. And he abides independent, grasping after nothing in the world whatever. Thus bhikkhus, does a brother with respect to the feelings, continue to consider feeling. --- Metta, Nori 34292 From: norakat147 Date: Tue Jun 29, 2004 10:38pm Subject: On the topic of Sensation, Pleasure and Pain One of the things I have realized in my practice of self observation is this: Pleasure and Pain is not the result of sensations in-and-of themselves. Pleasure and Pain is the result of a reaction due to ones mental disposition (or mental formation) and bodily disposition (or bodily formation). For example: Lets say somebody is out walking in the sunlight. The sensations in- and-of-themselves from the sun is warmth and other subtle sensations on the skin; also light from the sun on the eyes/retina. These sensations in-and-of-themselves are not pain-suffering or pleasure. It is only sensation; neutral, with no pain/suffering, no pleasure. One can, by ones own volition, not think or react and feel the sensations from the sun in-and-of-itself. But now if one were to think, `this sun, it is not good for my skin, I can develop skin cancer.' And as soon as aversion develops, now one can begin to feel in his body, in addition to the initial sensations from the sun itself (i.e. the warmth and tingling sensation on the skin) a very unpleasant sensation run all throughout his body; pain and suffering begins. Now this sensation was not caused by the sun itself. But now if one were to think, `this sun, it is good for my skin, I can develop vitamin D, and benefit from its other effects.' And as soon as a `liking' develops, now one can begin to feel in his body, in addition to the initial sensations from the sun itself, a very pleasant sensation run all throughout his body which scientists might describe as a release of dopamine in the brain. Once again, the Pleasure or Pain is the result of a reaction due to ones mental disposition (or mental formation) NOT - due to the sun, or the sensations caused by the sun in-and-of-itself. Even the sensation of being stabbed in the arm, while being a sharp and intense sensation, in-and-of-itself, is not pain/suffering. It is ones reaction in the form of aversion that is suffering. Depending on the level of aversion or `liking' one can develop towards the object, the sensations caused on the body by the object in-and-of-itself can be, and is in most cases, dwarfed by the overwhelming sensations created by the reaction due to aversion or `liking'. And so one can say in a sense: Ultimately, nothing in this world is the cause of our suffering, we are the cause of our own suffering. With Metta, nori 34293 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Jun 29, 2004 10:50pm Subject: The Jhaanas and the Lay Disciple According to the Paali Suttas (19) The Jhaanas and the Lay Disciple According to the Paali Suttas Ven. Bhikkhu Bodhi Conclusions and an Afterthought (1) Our study has led us to the following conclusions regarding the relationship between lay noble disciples and the jhaanas. 1. Several suttas describe the process by which a worldling enters "the fixed course of rightness" in a way that emphasizes either faith or wisdom as the chief means of attainment. None of the texts, however, that deal with the two candidates for stream-entry - the faith-follower and the Dhamma-follower - show them as being proficient in the jhaanas. Though some suttas include the jhaanas in the analysis of the faculty of concentration, this may be done simply out of compliance with the formulaic style of definition employed by the Nikaayas and need not be seen as having categorical implications. The Commentaries treat these definitions as referring to the supramundane jhaana arisen within the supramundane path. Moreover, the analysis of the concentration faculty mentions another type of concentration, which is gained "by making release the object," and this may be interpreted broadly enough as including degrees of concentration short of the jhaanas. 2. All noble disciples acquire the right concentration of the Noble Eightfold Path, which is defined as the four jhaanas. This need not be understood to mean that stream-enterers and once-returners already possess jhaana before they reach stream-entry. The formula for right concentration may imply only that they must eventually attain the jhaanas in the course of developing the path to its culmination in arahantship. If we go along with the Commentaries in recognizing the Abhidhammic distinction between the preparatory path and the supramundane path, then we can maintain that the jhaanas included in right concentration as a path factor pertain to the supramundane path and are thus of supramundane stature. This still leaves open the question whether aspirants for stream-entry must develop the mundane jhaanas in the preliminary phase of their practice. 3. A number of texts on stream-enterers and once-returners imply that they do not possess the jhaanas as meditative attainments which they can enter at will. Though it is obvious that disciples at the lower two levels may have jhaanic attainments, the latter are not declared to be an integral part of their spiritual equipment. ****** 34294 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Jun 30, 2004 0:45am Subject: A rough guide to some jumbled posts intended (1) Dear Nina & All (thinking of Phil, Icaro and RobM), I hope you have a good trip too and this reaches you before you go. As always, I'd like to express my great appreciation and thanks for all your hard work and sharing of the Dhamma. Your energy, enthusiasm and confidence in the Tipitaka and commentaries are most inspiring and far more precious than keeping our youthful appearances;-). I just have one more BB installment to post and several short cryptic sets of comments to different friends here in lieu of intended letters. I agreed with your comment on one installment - always comes back to moments of satipatthana with the threee trainings developing firmer and firmer 'firmeness of citta and understanding'. I hope there's more discussion. I was interested in his comments on 'panca sekhabalaani' and samaadhibala in his letter to Tzungkuen and comments on AN4:169, p160 in PTS vol 11. I'll be glad to read anything further you or anyone adds on any of the posts. Satipatthana - Perseverence 6:6. "The hindrances are only akusala cetasikas arising because of conditions, they have no owner. In this sense they are beyond control'. Such a relief, like a cool balm, to have a just a little understanding and detachment in the midst of mental chaos;-). We fly out late this evening for Switzerland. The washing machine has been back off to 'hospital' while we're away, the air-conditioner is semi-working after two days of workmen slaving over it in our heat-wave. Jon's injured back is 'workable' after a week of sleeping on the living room floor and lots of attention from Dr Ma and our bags (no chance of hand luggage with J's back prob) were checked in at 7am at the City check-in nearby all the way through to the basic flat where we'll be staying in Zermatt!! The Swiss are the best when it comes to bag travel arrangements but in the mountain areas anyway, unlike the Thai beaches or Indian holy places, there are no internet cafes or connections -- just a coin operated computer in a noisy, smokey, boozy bar where Jon will be checking in daily and if possible, printing posts for me to read on the balcony with my mother and a cup of tea, overlooking the Matterhorn after a half day's hike. Phil, on previous holidays, I've shown my mother pictures of members in the album and given her a few details. So now I can just pick out short paragraphs of non-Pali everyday posts to show or read out to her. She likes the little 'human' touches. Phil - you'd love the tapes and it would be great if you'd transcribe and add comments. We had made arrangements in Bkk for people to get copies and left funds for this, but the system seems to have broken down - the friends that were helping are no longer around. If no one else has any suggestions, I'll see if I can do anything on return. Nina on the - I liked the comment from the Expositor that they 'should be classed as the one moment in the sense of occasion, they form the occasion for the production of merit.' Also the 'concurrence of circumstances' and 'simultaneous occurrence of many dhammas'. I've discussed the 'four wheels' many times over the years with K. Sujin and it reminds me of discussions on sappaya sampajanna and natural decisive support conditions. When we refer to climate, teacher, country and so on, shorthand for many dhammas. As K.Sujin always repeats, it always comes back to pa~n~naa. If there are conditions for panna to arise now, whether watching cartoons in Brazil or mopping up water in Hong Kong, then at that moment it's the 'suitable place' she'd stress. Nina, I liked your comments on 'transfer of merit' - different results, conventional names for planes to describe objects experienced, but really only the same paramattha dhammas like now, as you say. Planes of cittas (bhumi) and planes of existence (bhumi), closely connected. K.Sujin talked about arupabrahma plances - like thinking now, defined by cittas and objects. When there is understanding of nama, no doubt about it. When we're very angry, it's a different 'plane' from when we're very happy. I consider hell planes and heavenly planes in terms of different cittas like this. On breath, you asked some qus when we went to Bkk and I didn't get round to reporting back. Just briefly, some of KS's comments - not exact quotes: Breath - it doesn't concern with all those things (eg blowing etc) at all.It's the rupa conditioned by citta. there are many other groups, conditioned by other causes. Don't try to pinpoint and call it breath. It's not just any vayu dhatu (air element) but the very special one that can only be known when it appears. Those in the Buddha's time had lots of panna and parami - whatever the Buddha said could be understood instantly. There was no doubt about breath etc. It's there for some with the right accumulations to be aware of it, like the Buddha, Ananda and some other key disciples. When we read the Vism, it's our own thinking and understanding of what we are used to taking for breath. Actually, it's only rupa conditioned by citta. We cannot pinpoint which group of rupas is conditioned by citta.It's unknown, but we take it for something as a meditation subject. There is a difference betweem the wisdom of people in the Buddha's time and today. Rupas rise and fall away immediately. For example, we move a hand and it's conditioned by citta in general, but there are other groups as well. We cannot pinpoint. "Don't select, but understand everything as a conditioned dhamma to understand its anattaness better and better". Nama as nama and rupa as rupa. Enjoy your break too, Nina and look forward to checking in again on return (17th July). Kom's also helping us to keep an eye on things while we're travelling and I'd like to express my great appreciation for all his behind the scenes support over the years. Unfortunately, with two jobs and his other Dhamma activities, he has no time to participate for the time being. Metta, Sarah ====== 34295 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Jun 30, 2004 1:04am Subject: A rough guide to some jumbled posts intended (2) Dear Phil & Herman, Of course, whether or not we 'cultivate a fair amount of solitude' or not will be by conditions anyway. Herman, this was a great line preserved from any earlier post: "You can have absolute confidence that any thought of shoulding, musting, having to etc is generated by the ego." Of course, Phil, if there was any idea that one 'should' be able to hang out with those debauched colleagues and have any equanimity, that would be more ego generation too;-) And btw, keep earing the $ whatever others might suggest, whilst living a lay life;-). That's a 'shoulding' exception. Herman, your comments on this theme and reference to Kali and the Kakacupama sutta were very good too. I'd like to quote and elaborate, but the timer is on. Also while the praise is flowing (don't worry, it won't last), thx for the link to all the detail in the link to 'The Signs of a Great Man' and the Lakkhana Sutta. I found the lists very clearly set out and interesting with the Pali terms too. I can only answer 'by conditions' to all the qus you raised to Phil in post 34273..... Phil, Mahanama sutta - I'm glad you (and friend) reminded us - great reflections anytime, again by conditions, not by 'shoulding'. Oh and Herman, good to see you having to resort to quoting from suttas;-) Can we say that insight leads to the perception that form is inconstant rather than the other way round? Metta, Sarah ====== 34296 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Jun 30, 2004 1:24am Subject: A rough guide to some jumbled posts intended (3) Dear RobM & Bhinnatta, Rob, I saw you mentioned you were teaching on di.t.thi and maana and I'd meant to say that I thought you wrote a very clear and helpful post on sakkaya ditthi (34076) recently. Plenty on mana in U.P. under 'conceit' and I noticed you're helping us contribute to simple daily life examples - 'I'm lucky to live in Malaysia'. Yes! There doesn't have to be any mana (conceit) involved, but it slips in so easily, doesn't it? If Lee comes to your talks, pls encourage him to report back too and maybe a pic of you both? I like the idea of the reciting mnemonics 'som sa di sam asan'...great! Jon said he understood just what you were saying about the Thai chanting and breaks, but no further comment. I didn't agree with all the definitions on sati you used (33998) and meant to fish out the Pali and English translations that Suan and I were looking at from the Vibhanga with lots of synonyms. Perhaps Suan could recycle it [I'm lost these days without escribe for searches]. Bhinnatta, same applies to dhamma vicaya (investigation of dhamma). This was another synonym for panna, vipassana, sampajanna and so on from the Vibhanga. (Suan, can you help again?) Remember, panna is always 'the forerunner' and accompanies each moment of sati in satipatthana from the very beginning. There are different levels or degrees of panna, but no satipatthana without it. Lots in the satipatthana sutta commentary of sati-sampajanna. Sorry, again too rushed for quotes. Also (re your 'transfer of Merit' post and freewill and 'transcenent skillfull intentions' quoting Ven Thanissaro, remember it is the eightfold path factors that 'transcend', again with panna as 'forerunner'. In any case, I'm enjoying all your posts and interesting angles on topics. Metta, Sarah ====== 34297 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Jun 30, 2004 1:47am Subject: The Jhaanas and the Lay Disciple According to the Paali Suttas (20) The Jhaanas and the Lay Disciple According to the Paali Suttas Ven. Bhikkhu Bodhi Conclusions and an Afterthought (2) 4. Several non-returners in the Nikaayas claim to possess all four jhaanas, and according to the Mahaamaalu,nkya Sutta, attainment of at least the first jhaana is part of the practice leading to the eradication of the five lower fetters. It thus seems likely that stream-enterers and once-returners desirous of advancing to non-returnership in that very same life must attain at least the first jhaana as a basis for developing insight. Those content with their status, prepared to let the "law of the Dhamma" take its course, generally will not strive to attain the jhaanas. Instead, they settle for the assurance that they are bound to reach the final goal within a maximum of seven more lives passed in the human and celestial worlds. 5. As non-returners have eliminated sensual lust and ill will, the main obstacles to jhaanic attainment, they should face no major problems in entering the jhaanas. The non-returner is similar to the ordinary jhaana-attainer in being bound for rebirth in the form realm. Unlike the latter, however, the non-returner is utterly free from sensual desire and ill will and thus can never fall back to the sensuous realm. 6. Although in the Nikaayas the tie between the two attainments - the jhaanas and non-returnership - is clear enough, it remains an open question whether the connection is absolutely binding. Several suttas speak of the achievements of non-returners without mentioning the jhaanas, and at least one sutta contrasts the non-returner who gains all four jhaanas with one who practises more austere types of meditation that do not typically lead to the jhaanas. The Commentaries speak even of a sukkhavipassaka arahant, an arahant who has gained the goal entirely through "dry insight," without any attainment of form-sphere jhaana at all. Although such a type is not explicitly recognized in the Nikaayas, the question may be raised whether the Commentaries, in asserting the possibility of arahantship without attainment of jhaana in the mundane portion of the path, have deviated from the Canon or brought to light a viable possibility implict in the older texts. The famous Satipa.t.thaana Sutta declares, in its conclusion, that all those who earnestly dedicate themselves to uninterrupted practice of the four establishments of mindfulness are bound to reap one of two fruits: either arahantship in this very life or, if any residue of clinging remains, the stage of non-returning. While several exercises within the Satipa.t.thaana Sutta are certainly capable of inducing the jhaanas, the system as a whole seems oriented towards direct insight rather than towards the jhaanas.[40] Thus this opens the question whether the Satipa.t.thaana Sutta might not be propounding a way of practice that leads all the way to non-returning, even to arahantship, without requiring attainment of the jhaanas. This, however, is another question, one that lies beyond the scope of this paper. ***** Notes: 40. This is a widespread view among contemporary interpreters, though the sutta itself does not describe its method explicitly in such terms. ============================================================== 34298 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Jun 30, 2004 1:57am Subject: A rough guide to some jumbled posts intended (4) Dear Tzungkuen, (Ken H, Andrew & All) That was it - the last of the B.Bodhi series with no major mishaps on my part.... Tzungkuen, please also excuse this last and rushed post from me. I hope others like KenH* may pick up the thread - the topics you raise (post 34231) are very useful to discuss further. Again I think we need to stress that panna is the forerunner. As it develops, the accompanying concentration is always wholesome. Without panna, there won't be any knowing. Dhammas have to be understood as anatta, so when there is the idea of 'practice samatha meditation', isn't there any idea of someone doing something? Is there any undestanding? By conditions, when we read the Mahanama sutta just posted, there may be wise reflection on the Triple Gem, on morality or generosity or other topics which condition calm at that moment. The associated concentration with these kusala cittas is kusala too. However, if we set out to concentrate on the Buddha's qualities in order to develop samatha or access concentration, there won't be any kusala cittas at those moments of intention motivated by desire for particular results. By understanding dhammas, any dhammas, which arise without any selection or idea of self, all kinds of kusala will be developed naturally. We may think that setting out 'to practice samatha meditation' or follow concentration on certain objects will help progress, but I think it's an impediment, a 'papanca', whenever there is any self-view or idea of any selection or control at all. It seems 'we' can change reality or induce metta to arise, but this is the illusion of self-view. I think Nina has added a few comments already as well. There is still plenty of 'use of moral precept (sila), charity (dana) and mental development (bhavana)', but again they are not in the self's control at all. Pls look at posts under 'anatta' and 'anatta and no control' in U.P. too for references and more detail. You wrote: "To strive for practicing meditation (samatha or vipassana) is to understand form experience the doctrine of anatta. Doesn't it?" This is a very good question....it always comes back to the cittas. Only panna can know at that moment of striving, I think. Sorry to have to break off. I'd have liked to incorporate some of the sutta passages from BB's series and discuss these further, but another time. Perhaps others will discuss these points further with you. I greatly appreciate your interest in the Abhidhamma and commentaries as well as the Suttas of course. Wishing everyone well with all that's wholesome and look forward to reading your posts and posting again in just over two weeks' time or so. Metta, Sarah p.s Ken H - if you speak to Andrew, pls tell him that his recent posts have been gems - esp. his discussion with Herman. Missing Mike's gems on and off-list if you hear from him too. ====================================== 34299 From: robmoult Date: Wed Jun 30, 2004 2:01am Subject: Re: A rough guide to some jumbled posts intended (3) Hi Sarah, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > I didn't agree with all the definitions on sati you used (33998) and meant > to fish out the Pali and English translations that Suan and I were looking > at from the Vibhanga with lots of synonyms. Perhaps Suan could recycle it > [I'm lost these days without escribe for searches]. ===== The definitions of sati were extracted from "Mindfulness in Plain English" by Ven Henepola Gunaratana http://www.saigon.com/~anson/ebud/mfneng/mind0.htm Metta, Rob M :-) 34300 From: sarahprocterabbott Date: Wed Jun 30, 2004 2:07am Subject: Re: Nibbida Revulsion or Disinterest Hi Jeff, (Jon & Howard) Oh, one last quick post to Jeff - I've found your subject heading as I know you might not see the post otherwise. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, jhanananda@y... wrote: > Nibbida Revulsion or Disinterest > > I believe the translation of the Pali term 'Nibbidaa' as ''Revulsion' is a > classic example of Theravadan dogma affecting the translation of the Pali canon. ..... I understand your comments and personally I agree that 'disinterest' would seem more appropriate because of the strong connotations with 'revulsion'. Somewhere, B.Bodhi discusses this (no time to look) but Jon and Howard recently discussed this further with helpful comments. See: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/34 032 Maybe Chris or others can add any further comments by B.Bodhi on this if he's given them. Howard, hope you had a good cruise and look f/w to hearing about your talks with your Queen's Dhamma group - I was glad to hear this is working out. Metta, Sarah ==== 34301 From: Bhikkhu Samahita Date: Wed Jun 30, 2004 2:52am Subject: Not Yours ! Friends: Cut Clinging to what cannot be Owned: The Buddha said: Bhikkhus, leave what is not yours, since that will lead to your welfare & happiness for a long time. What is not yours ? Material & bodily form are not yours, leave it and let it go! Feeling, perception, construction & even consciousness are not yours, leave it and let it go!. When you have thus left these, released clinging to these, that indeed will lead to your welfare & happiness for a long time... The Middle Length Sayings: MN I 140 The "Dear" Sorrows: Whatever countless sorrows, frustrations & pains there are in this world, they all originate dependent upon some attraction held as dear! With nothing held as dear, no sorrow can ever come into being... Udana 92 Break the Source: How can one be attracted to sensual pleasures after discovering them to be the very Source wherefrom pain itself springs ? Whoever knows craving, wanting, needing & possession to be an addictive bondage, should train to break free of it... Obsession: http://uk.geocities.com/bhikkhu_samahita/Canon/Sutta/AN/AN.I.1-2.html All yours in the Dhamma. Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. http://groups.msn.com/DirectDhamma/ http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Buddha-Direct/ http://www.smartgroups.com/groups/TrueDhamma 34302 From: Bhikkhu Samahita Date: Wed Jun 30, 2004 0:58am Subject: Irrational attention ... Dear Christine: Irrational unwise attention 'ayoniso manasikara': (lit. not directing to the womb/origin of case.) Means not paying attention to the Cause of or Reason behind a given phenomena by asking: When what cause is present, do this effect arise ? When what cause is absent, do this effect not arise or cease ? Rational attention (wise as to reason) always notices: Momentarily & continuously: Ahh this mental construction was caused by that ignorance. Ahh this consciousness was caused by that construction. Ahh this mind-&-matter was caused by that consciousness. Ahh these senses were caused by that mind-&-matter. Ahh this contact was caused by these senses. Ahh this feeling was caused by that contact. Ahh this craving was caused by that feeling. Ahh this clinging was caused by that craving. Ahh this becoming was caused by that clinging. Ahh this birth was caused by that becoming. Ahh this death was caused by that birth. Removing this cause makes that pain vanish. Bhikkhu Samahita 34303 From: Bhikkhu Samahita Date: Wed Jun 30, 2004 1:33am Subject: The 6 roots= mulas Hi Phil: There are 6 such roots = mulas: 3 karmically advantageous roots: Greed, hate & confusion (lobha, dosa, moha), and 3 disadvantageous roots: Greedlessness, hatelessness & certainty (alobha, adosa, amoha). Greed (lobha or rága) comprises all degrees of 'attractedness' towards an object from the faintest trace of a longing thought up to grossest egoism, whilst hatred (dosa) comprises all degrees of 'repulsion' from the faintest trace of irritation up to the highest rage of hate and anger. Greed, lust, desire, attraction & preference (same diluted quality) & their opposite derivatives: Hate, anger, aversion, opposition & stubbornness ALWAYS come & go together as a mirrored pair !!!!; Since if one do not get what one wants one hates.. If one instead gets what one not wants one hates.. Lust for object1 is the same as = Aversion towards Not possessing object1! Lust for freedom from object2 is the same as = Aversion towards association with object2! Loving something means hating the opposite! Hating something means loving the opposite! Both are ultimately caused by ignorance of the 4 Noble Truths. This Ignorance are thus the deepest root of all ill... Thus, greedlessness (alobha) is a name for generosity, hatelessness (adosa) is a name for friendliness (mettá), unconfused certainty (amoha) is a name for understanding (paññá). The perception of disgust is to be developed to overcome greed; universal friendliness in order to overcome hate; understanding in order to overcome confusion (A. VI, 107). see MULA at http://www.budsas.org/ebud/bud-dict/dic3_m.htm Bhikkhu Samahita : - ] 34304 From: kenhowardau Date: Wed Jun 30, 2004 3:29am Subject: Re: Every Paramattha dhamma can be clearly observed from experience ? Hi Rob M, ------------------- > Ken H, are you trying to trap me again!?! One doesn't need vipassana (formal meditation, heaven forbid!) to have sati (mindfulness) of the present moment :-) You sly devil :-) What do you mean by "ordinary experience"? From anybody else, I would take it at face value, but in your case, I smell a trap :-) :-) :-) > ------------------ :-) I have been unjustly accused! If I remember correctly, Tzung-Kuen asked if all paramattha dhammas could be known and you replied that paramattha dhammas could not be known in isolation. I am still trying to figure out what you meant by that. I wondered if you were saying it was only sati (as distinct from the more commonly occurring cetasikas) that could not experience dhammas in isolation. My point was, we all experience dhammas (one at a time) every second of the day but sati and panna are almost never present and so we are not aware of the dhammas we have been experiencing. So, this time, I was not talking about formal practice. But since you have brought it up, I might say that your avoidance of the subject has not gone unnoticed :-) Avoid it or not, it will not go away: it is involved in every facet of Dhamma discussion. Every attempt at understanding Dhamma comes down to anatta and to the question, `Is there someone who is trying to create understanding or are there only namas and rupas?' Back to the beginning of your post: --------------- RM: > There may be lobha-mula javana cittas in the tongue door citta process but they are not attached to the specific object (i.e. liking sweet); rather they are attached to the sense itself (taking pleasure in sensing). ---------------- This does not fit with my understanding, which is that citta and its cetasikas together experience one and the same object. Are you saying, in the above example, that they don't experience an object at all? ----------------------------- RM: > Ledi Sayadaw explains that it is in these consequent processes that distinct recognition of the object occurs; such recognition does not occur in a bare five-door process itself. > ----------------- We have several terms to keep track of; `knowledge' `awareness' 'sense' `experience' and now, `distinct recognition.' It seems to me that your use of `distinct recognition' describes the conceptualising (pannatti) of what has been sensed. ------------------ RM: > An eye door process, for example, is followed first by a conformational mind-door process (tadanu-vattika manodvaravithi), which reproduces in the mind door the object just perceived in the sense-door process. ------------------ Is it always the sense-door object that is reproduced? Can't it be one of the other dhammas from the sense-door process (e.g., sukha- vedana in the example I gave yesterday)? -------------------------------- RM: > For example, my wife likes spicy food and I like bland food. This liking or disliking of flavour does not arise during the tongue door process. As it says in the Honeyball Sutta (Mn 18): Feeling -> Naming -> Thinking About -> Mental Profliferation > -------------------------------- I don't know about Ledi Sayadaw, but other people say there can be extremely strong lobha or dosa (etc.) in the sense-door processes. The flow of citta processes is so fast and so intermingled (all six types occurring one at a time, many times per second) it is impossible to say whether any particular cetasika is going to be strong or weak. Couldn't it happen, for example, that strong liking (lobha) for the concept of bland food conditions strong lobha for a gustatory rupa one millionth of a second later (or vice versa)? Thanks for trying to explain all this, Rob, I hope you won't give up on me. If sati and panna are ever going to arise, I must first ascertain what it is they will be experiencing. Ken H 34305 From: robmoult Date: Wed Jun 30, 2004 4:29am Subject: Re: Every Paramattha dhamma can be clearly observed from experience ? Hi Ken H, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > :-) I have been unjustly accused! My apologies :-) > > If I remember correctly, Tzung-Kuen asked if all paramattha dhammas > could be known and you replied that paramattha dhammas could not be > known in isolation. I am still trying to figure out what you meant > by that. I wondered if you were saying it was only sati (as > distinct from the more commonly occurring cetasikas) that could not > experience dhammas in isolation. > > My point was, we all experience dhammas (one at a time) every second > of the day but sati and panna are almost never present and so we are > not aware of the dhammas we have been experiencing. ===== I think that I see your point now and perhaps I generalized too much. Nama arises in groups (citta + cetasikas) and would be an object through the mind-door. I still think that the paramattha dhamma called citta and the individual cetasikas cannot be experienced in isolation of each other. Rupa also arises in groups (kalapas) but when a kalapa presents itself at a sense door, only the appropriate sense rupa (visible object, sound, odour, flavour, temperature, pressure, hardness) is experienced in isolation of the other rupas that happen to accompany it. Of course, one can experience the paramattha dhamma of Nibbana in isolation. > --------------- > RM: > There may be lobha-mula javana cittas in the tongue door citta > process but they are not attached to the specific object (i.e. > liking sweet); rather they are attached to the sense itself (taking > pleasure in sensing). > ---------------- > > This does not fit with my understanding, which is that citta and its > cetasikas together experience one and the same object. Are you > saying, in the above example, that they don't experience an object > at all? ===== Sorry that I was not clear. You are correct. The citta and the accompanying cetasikas all experience exactly the same object. What I mean is that the lobha-mula cittas that may arise in a sense door process are attached to sensual data and only to sensual data. At that point in the pattern of citta processes, the object has not been grasped as a whole (i.e. it is not yet a shape, it is only visual object), it has not been named (i.e. it is not yet a rose) and previous experiences with that name have not come into play (i.e. no association with past roses yet). It is my contention (and I think that Ledi Sayadaw would agree with me) that many tend to read too much into the sense-door citta process. The comment that there are "hundreds of thousands" of mind door process after the sense-door process that build on the sense data input support my opinion that the sense door citta process may be a trigger, but the serious kamma takes place at the mind-door. ===== > > ----------------------------- > > RM: > Ledi Sayadaw explains that it is in these > consequent processes that distinct recognition of the object occurs; > such recognition does not occur in a bare five-door process itself. > > ----------------- > > We have several terms to keep track > of; `knowledge' `awareness' 'sense' `experience' and now, `distinct > recognition.' It seems to me that your use of `distinct > recognition' describes the conceptualising (pannatti) of what has > been sensed. ===== Yes. "distinct recognition" is conceptualizing; the grasping of the whole object, the recognition of colour, grasping the shape, recognizing the shape, grasping the name, recognizing the name and then grasping the associated feelings with the name. All of this is part of "distinct recognition". ===== > > ------------------ > > RM: > An eye door process, for example, is followed first by a > conformational mind-door process (tadanu-vattika manodvaravithi), > which reproduces in the mind door the object just perceived in the > sense-door process. > > ------------------ > > Is it always the sense-door object that is reproduced? Can't it be > one of the other dhammas from the sense-door process (e.g., sukha- > vedana in the example I gave yesterday)? ===== The CMA is clear that this sequence only applies to the five sense doors. Sukha-vedana is not an object of one of the five senses; it is the object of the mind-door. ===== > > -------------------------------- > concept as object > > RM: > For example, my wife likes spicy food and I like bland food. > This liking or disliking of flavour does not arise during the tongue > door process. As it says in the Honeyball Sutta (Mn 18): > > Feeling -> Naming -> Thinking About -> Mental Profliferation > > > -------------------------------- > > I don't know about Ledi Sayadaw, but other people say there can be > extremely strong lobha or dosa (etc.) in the sense-door processes. ===== I do not agree. I believe that strong lobha / dosa only arises at the mind door. ===== > > The flow of citta processes is so fast and so intermingled (all six > types occurring one at a time, many times per second) it is > impossible to say whether any particular cetasika is going to be > strong or weak. Couldn't it happen, for example, that strong liking > (lobha) for the concept of bland food conditions strong lobha for a > gustatory rupa one millionth of a second later (or vice versa)? ===== One could have strong liking for bland food, however the point at which the gustatory rupa is identified as "bland", is long after the tongue door process has ended. In fact, there have probably been a few hundred thousand mind-door processes since the tongue door process ended. The few hundred thousand mind-door processes can easily fit into the millionth of a second window you mentioned. Metta, Rob M :-) 34306 From: Date: Wed Jun 30, 2004 1:21am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Every Paramattha dhamma can be clearly observed from experience ? Hi, Nina (and Rob) - In a message dated 6/30/04 12:28:11 AM Eastern Daylight Time, nilo@e... writes: > > Dear Rob M, > op 29-06-2004 15:50 schreef robmoult op rob.moult@j...: > > > > >For example, my wife likes spicy food and I like bland food. This > >liking or disliking of flavour does not arise during the tongue door > >process. > N: Even before knowing what something is, in a sense-door process, > javanacittas with like or dislike may arise. This is by accumulations. I > gave the example of a child liking a coloured balloon, even though it does > not know what it is. > Just in a hurry to go off, > Nina. > ================================ Nina, I certainly agree with this, but with the proviso that the "knowing" that is unnecessary for the liking or disliking is a (proliferated) conceptual knowing, and not mere sa~n~na. In the Honeyball Sutta, there is the following: ___________________________ Dependent on eye & forms, eye-consciousness arises. The meeting of the three is contact. With contact as a requisite condition, there is feeling. What one feels, one perceives. What one perceives, one thinks about. What one thinks about, one complicates. Based on what a person complicates, the perceptions & categories of complication assail him/her with regard to past, present, & future forms cognizable via the eye. ----------------------------------------------- Certainly in the standard scheme of dependent origination there is given the dependency phassa --> vedana --> tanha. But the Honeyball Sutta focuses more finely, I believe, on the vedana --> tanha conditioning link. The detail given there can be represented, I think, as follows: contact --> feeling --> recognition (sa~n~na) --> mulling over --> conceptual complication (papa~nca) --> craving/aversion (tanha) and clinging (upadana) with regard to things remembered, "current" things, and envisioned future things. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 34307 From: Date: Wed Jun 30, 2004 2:00am Subject: Correction and Reformulation Re: [dsg] Re: Every Paramattha dhamma ... Hi again, Nina and Rob - In a message dated 6/30/04 8:21:09 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Upasaka incorrectly wrote: > Nina, I certainly agree with this, but with the proviso that the "knowing" > that is unnecessary for the liking or disliking is a (proliferated) > conceptual knowing, and not mere sa~n~na. In the Honeyball Sutta, there is the > following: > ============================= What I *should* have said is "Nina, I certainly agree with this, but only in a restricted sense. The "knowing" that is necessary for the liking or disliking is a (proliferated) conceptual knowing, and not mere sa~n~na. (Contact directly yields 'liking or disliking' only in the sense of experiencing as pleasant or unpleasant, i.e. vedana, but not in the sense of reactive desire or aversion.) In the Honeyball Sutta, there is the following:" I apologize for my initial confused statement. My original post, corrected and slightly extended, should read as follows: Hi, Nina (and Rob) - In a message dated 6/30/04 12:28:11 AM Eastern Daylight Time, nilo@e... writes: > > Dear Rob M, > op 29-06-2004 15:50 schreef robmoult op rob.moult@j...: > > > > >For example, my wife likes spicy food and I like bland food. This > >liking or disliking of flavour does not arise during the tongue door > >process. > N: Even before knowing what something is, in a sense-door process, > javanacittas with like or dislike may arise. This is by accumulations. I > gave the example of a child liking a coloured balloon, even though it does > not know what it is. > Just in a hurry to go off, > Nina. > ================================ Nina, I certainly agree with this, but only in a restricted sense. The "knowing" that is necessary for the liking or disliking is a (proliferated) conceptual knowing, and not mere sa~n~na. (Contact directly yields "liking or disliking" only in the sense of experiencing as pleasant or unpleasant, i.e., vedana, but not in the sense of reactive desire or aversion.) In the Honeyball Sutta, there is the following: ___________________________ Dependent on eye & forms, eye-consciousness arises. The meeting of the three is contact. With contact as a requisite condition, there is feeling. What one feels, one perceives. What one perceives, one thinks about. What one thinks about, one complicates. Based on what a person complicates, the perceptions & categories of complication assail him/her with regard to past, present, & future forms cognizable via the eye. ----------------------------------------------- Certainly in the standard scheme of dependent origination there is given the dependency phassa --> vedana --> tanha. But the Honeyball Sutta focuses more finely, I believe, on the vedana --> tanha conditioning link. I think it is important to note that it is not sa~n~na that conditions vedana, but vedana that conditions sa~n~na, and that the sa~n~na itself needs to first expand and proliferate in order for tanha to arise. The detail given there can be represented, I think, as follows: contact --> feeling --> recognition (sa~n~na) --> mulling over --> conceptual complication (papa~nca) --> craving/aversion (tanha) and clinging (upadana) with regard to things remembered, "current" things, and envisioned future things. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 34308 From: Date: Wed Jun 30, 2004 2:13am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Nibbida Revulsion or Disinterest Thanks, Sarah. :-) With metta, Howard In a message dated 6/30/04 5:25:58 AM Eastern Daylight Time, sarahprocterabbott@y... writes: > Howard, hope you had a good cruise and look f/w to hearing > about your talks with your Queen's Dhamma group - I was glad > to hear this is working out. > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 34309 From: Gabriel Nunes Laera Date: Wed Jun 30, 2004 9:05am Subject: Atenção racional - a base da postura contínua e momentãnea diante da existência e o sofrimento. Caros amigos, Segue a tradução de um esquema lógico que engloba a origem interdependente e a forma que através da atenção racional passa-se a constatá-la, e a partir desta, a intenção e as motivações enquadram-se nas intruções do Nobre Iluminado. Metta, Gabriel Laera *** Atenção racional (sábia acerca das causas e razões) sempre nota: Momentãnea e continuamente: Ahh! Esta construção mental foi causada por esta ignorância. Ahh! Esta consciência foi causada por esta construção. Ahh! Este corpo-&-matéria foi causado por esta consciência. Ahh! Estes sentidos foram causados por este corpo-&-matéria. Ahh! Este contato foi causado por este sentidos. Ahh! Este sentimento foi causado por este contacto. Ahh! Este apego foi causado por este sentimento. Ahh! Esta adesão foi causado por este sentimento. Ahh! Este vir-a-ser (se tornar) foi causado por esta adesão. Ahh! Este nascimento foi causado por este vir-a-ser (se tornar). Ahh! Esta morte foi causada por este nascimento. Removendo a causa da dor esta desaparece. *** P.S.: O original foi escrito por Bikkhu Samahita (bhikkhu_samahita@y...) na lista DSG (dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com) em 30/06/2004, 34310 From: Gabriel Nunes Laera Date: Wed Jun 30, 2004 11:07am Subject: Re: [dsg] Atenção racional - a base da postura contínua e momentãnea diante da existência e o sofrimento. Dearest friends of DSG, I made a mistake sending this message top the group! Anyway, this is just a translation of Bikkhu Samahita's last e-mail... Metta, Gabriel Laera ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gabriel Nunes Laera" To: Sent: Wednesday, June 30, 2004 1:05 PM Subject: [dsg] Atenção racional - a base da postura contínua e momentãnea diante da existência e o sofrimento. > Caros amigos, > > Segue a tradução de um esquema lógico que engloba a origem interdependente e > a forma que através da atenção racional passa-se a constatá-la, e a partir > desta, a intenção e as motivações enquadram-se nas intruções do Nobre > Iluminado. > > Metta, > > Gabriel Laera > > *** > > Atenção racional (sábia acerca das causas e razões) sempre nota: > > Momentãnea e continuamente: > > Ahh! Esta construção mental foi causada por esta ignorância. > > Ahh! Esta consciência foi causada por esta construção. > > Ahh! Este corpo-&-matéria foi causado por esta consciência. > > Ahh! Estes sentidos foram causados por este corpo-&-matéria. > > Ahh! Este contato foi causado por este sentidos. > > Ahh! Este sentimento foi causado por este contacto. > > Ahh! Este apego foi causado por este sentimento. > > Ahh! Esta adesão foi causado por este sentimento. > > Ahh! Este vir-a-ser (se tornar) foi causado por esta adesão. > > Ahh! Este nascimento foi causado por este vir-a-ser (se tornar). > > Ahh! Esta morte foi causada por este nascimento. > > Removendo a causa da dor esta desaparece. > > *** > > P.S.: O original foi escrito por Bikkhu Samahita > (bhikkhu_samahita@y...) na lista DSG (dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com) > em 30/06/2004, > > > > > > > > > > 34311 From: Sujjhana Bhinnatta Date: Wed Jun 30, 2004 11:32am Subject: Some caution and non-advice Hi Rob M, Ken H, and all you other non-selves posting these conceptual non-truths. (being satirical not mean) ------------------- Rob:> Ken H, are you trying to trap me again!?! One doesn't need > vipassana (formal meditation, heaven forbid!) to have sati > (mindfulness) of the present moment :-) You sly devil :-) What do > you mean by "ordinary experience"? From anybody else, I would take > it at face value, but in your case, I smell a trap :-) :-) :-) B: What is more skillfull, being able to classify and label all mental states, cittas, cetasikas and rupas, or having one moment of real experience free from greed, aversion, and ignorance? And don't give me the notion that having experience implies a self because, from what I have been reading, the selves that have all these different ideas and positions on translation, meaning, definition, order, and theme are very much alive and well in this group. Claiming anatta and realizing anatta are very different. One requires some reading and conjecture, the other does indeed require the "formal meditation" that we loath so much. I am not disagreeing with Rob's claim about sati. Truly mindfulness is not dependent on vipassana, but I have yet to meet or hear of someone having any real development of sati without regularly practicing some sort of satipatthana. Furthermore, I may be misinterpreting the point, but I do not understand the Ven. Bhikku Bodhi's attempt to show that enlightenment is possible without jnanas. Is samattha really that painful? Also, satipatthana meditation does not lead to "dry insight" as Ven. Bodhi claims. Any degree of developed sati by its very nature has concentration as its co-requisite. In other words, remembering to be mindful of an object over and over and over again, to the point where one has continuous sati, necessitates an equivalent degree of concentration. Again, I'm open to clarification. Forgive my oversimplification. I read these posts with great enthusiasm every day, but sometimes I feel as if they are going in circles. I'm reminded of the Sabba Sutta (SN XXXV.23): "Monks, I will teach you the All. Listen & pay close attention. I will speak." "As you say, lord," the monks responded. The Blessed One said, "What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas. This, monks, is called the All. [1] Anyone who would say, 'Repudiating this All, I will describe another,' if questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for his statement, would be unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put to grief. Why? Because it lies beyond range." I'm reminded of this sutta because when we discuss the details of Abidhamma or cittas or cetasikas, we are still working within the confines of this "all." We are so used to the word "all" meaning everything we can think of; the planet; civilization; all the atoms, molecules, and energies of the universe. But let us try and challenge the Buddha. What is there that is outside of the eye & forms, the ear & sounds, the nose & aromas, the tongue & flavors, the body & tactile sensations, and the intellect & ideas? If you say Nibbana, you've already made an error. So where is the citta? the rupa? the jnana? the sati? the cetasika? I tell you they are nowhere but in your own mind. The are not "ultimate realities" any more than car, tree, sky, red, green, true, false, up or down are ultimate realities. These are empty words. Reality by its very nature gives us nothing to hang onto. In the present moment there is no room for citta or rupa. That is why we call them citta and rupa. Skillfull means. Friends, I am not criticizing the delineation of the paramatta-dhammas or the usefulness of the abidhamma-pitaka or its commentaries. I am criticizing the potential dangers in trying to analyze them conceptually. And make no mistake, these are just concepts. The Buddha knows how easy it is to become lost in the realm of the intellect & ideas. Perhaps the commentator Buddhaghosa had enough time and merit to master both meditation and his scholarly pursuits, we will never know. I am sure, however, that I have neither the time nor the accumulated merit to do the same. Therefore, the best this non-person can do is to sit on a non-cushion and practice not-practicing. May you all be clear sighted, present and at peace. Bhinnatta --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.708 / Virus Database: 464 - Release Date: 6/18/2004 34312 From: Herman Hofman Date: Wed Jun 30, 2004 4:48pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Nibbida Revulsion or Disinterest Hi Jeff, I agreed with you when I first read your post, and still do, but only this morning the following thoughts occurred to me. I simply remembered the many times I had attempted to give up smoking, and how I was becoming quite good at it :-) And then I remembered that I finally succeeded when each time a craving for a cigarette arose, I could counter it with revulsion at the thought of the smell, the taste, the coughing, the memory of phlegm, the image of pink lungs lined with tar. In short, the craving was countered with revulsion, which seemed more effective in my case than other tricks like diversion or simple acknowledgment. Perhaps revulsion can be seen as a useful intermediate step in countering craving. All the best Herman ====================== I believe the translation of the Pali term 'Nibbida' as 'Revulsion' is a classic example of Theravadan dogma affecting the translation of the Pali canon. The term 'Nibbida' was used by the historic Buddha to describe a necessary stage in which a contemplative arrives at a place of dispassion toward the aggregates (khandas/skhandas) so that equanimity, one of the 7 factors of enlightenment, can emerge. The problem with translating 'Nibbida' as 'Revulsion' is since when did the Buddha ever propose an aversive mental state, such as revulsion, could ever give rise to the cessation of displeasure and suffering (dukkha)? In fact we need only look to the 4 Noble Truths to know that both grasping and aversion are the causes of displeasure and suffering (dukkha). So, how could the scholars, such as Bhikkhu Bodhi, forget the foundations of Buddhist philosophy when they worked on their translations? 34313 From: robmoult Date: Wed Jun 30, 2004 6:33pm Subject: Re: Some caution and non-advice Hi Bhinnatta, I sincerely appreciate this message. There are some excellent reminders here. Allow me to identify the parts that had the biggest impact on me. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Sujjhana Bhinnatta" wrote: > Hi Rob M, Ken H, and all you other non-selves posting these conceptual > non-truths. (being satirical not mean) > > ------------------- > Rob:> Ken H, are you trying to trap me again!?! One doesn't need > > vipassana (formal meditation, heaven forbid!) to have sati > > (mindfulness) of the present moment :-) You sly devil :-) What do > > you mean by "ordinary experience"? From anybody else, I would take > > it at face value, but in your case, I smell a trap :-) :-) :-) > > B: What is more skillfull, being able to classify and label all mental > states, cittas, cetasikas and rupas, or having one moment of real experience > free from greed, aversion, and ignorance? ===== I strongly agree that theory without practice is useless. I try to maintain a balance of the two in my life, but the "Rob M" on DSG does not reflect this balance. From time to time, on DSG and in my class, I try to encourage friends to apply the theory in their daily lives but I sometimes find that it comes across as "preachy" and I fear that it is not always appreciated. From time to time, on DSG and in my class, I talk of the joy I experience when doing dana, as part of sila, or during my formal meditation but I find that it sometimes comes across as "boasting". In brief, the "Rob M" that you read on DSG is only half the story. I monitor the balance and when I feel that there is too much theory, I try to add more practical. Unfortunately, that doesn't come across on DSG. ===== > And don't give me the notion that > having experience implies a self because, from what I have been reading, the > selves that have all these different ideas and positions on translation, > meaning, definition, order, and theme are very much alive and well in this > group. ===== Anybody on DSG who claims to have uprooted self-view is deluding themselves. The unwolesome state of mind accompanied by self-view arises all the time. Studying the Abhidhamma has taught me that taking the unwholesome state of mind as an object of consciousness (i.e. seeing it as it is) is a wholesome state of mind. My meditation teachers say the same thing (ususally without the Pali jargon). The thought, "I am in pain" is unwholesome whereas the thought, "pain has arisen" can be wholesome. Many times, I have exorted to my class, "note anger as it arises... take the 'I' out of it... this is the way to take away its support..." They shake their heads and say, "easier said than done" and I have to agree as I remember recent instances when I "lost it" with one of my sons. It makes me feel like a hypocrite (or should I say, "a feeling of hypocrisy arises :-) ). I am reminded of a quote by Socrates. He said, "even a fool can speak the truth". And often, that is how I feel... like a fool speaking the truth. ===== > Claiming anatta and realizing anatta are very different. One requires > some reading and conjecture, the other does indeed require the "formal > meditation" that we loath so much. ===== My teachers have told me many times that truly and completely understanding anatta one experiences Nibbana. I am told that the same is true for anicca and dukkha. Again, I do not believe that anybody on DSG truly and completely understands anatta. One thing that I note from the Suttas is that the Buddha tailored His approach based on the accumulations of the audience. There are many forms of practice described in the Suttas. Formal meditation is an important part of my practice, but for some on DSG, formal meditation strengthens the idea of a self trying to achieve or control. Ken H and I were joking about my reluctance to get drawn into a discussion on this subject. ===== > I am not disagreeing with Rob's claim > about sati. Truly mindfulness is not dependent on vipassana, but I have yet > to meet or hear of someone having any real development of sati without > regularly practicing some sort of satipatthana. ===== I happen to agree with you regarding the importance of formal meditation. Perhaps my sarcastic taunts at Ken H were misinterpreted. As it turns out, Ken H feels that he was unjustly accused. My "take- away" is that, in the future, my attempts at humour should not involve harsh language. I truly value the harmonious discussion of DSG and I realize that sarcasm does not translate well into a written form. Thanks for the reminder. ===== > Forgive my oversimplification. I read these posts with great enthusiasm > every day, but sometimes I feel as if they are going in circles. I'm > reminded of the Sabba Sutta (SN XXXV.23): > > "Monks, I will teach you the All. Listen & pay close attention. I will > speak." > "As you say, lord," the monks responded. > > The Blessed One said, "What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & > sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, > intellect & ideas. This, monks, is called the All. [1] Anyone who would say, > 'Repudiating this All, I will describe another,' if questioned on what > exactly might be the grounds for his statement, would be unable to explain, > and furthermore, would be put to grief. Why? Because it lies beyond range." > > I'm reminded of this sutta because when we discuss the details of Abidhamma > or cittas or cetasikas, we are still working within the confines of this > "all." We are so used to the word "all" meaning everything we can think of; > the planet; civilization; all the atoms, molecules, and energies of the > universe. But let us try and challenge the Buddha. What is there that is > outside of the eye & forms, the ear & sounds, the nose & aromas, the tongue > & flavors, the body & tactile sensations, and the intellect & ideas? If you > say Nibbana, you've already made an error. > > So where is the citta? the rupa? the jnana? the sati? the cetasika? I tell > you they are nowhere but in your own mind. The are not "ultimate realities" > any more than car, tree, sky, red, green, true, false, up or down are > ultimate realities. These are empty words. Reality by its very nature gives > us nothing to hang onto. In the present moment there is no room for citta or > rupa. That is why we call them citta and rupa. Skillfull means. > > Friends, I am not criticizing the delineation of the paramatta- dhammas or > the usefulness of the abidhamma-pitaka or its commentaries. I am criticizing > the potential dangers in trying to analyze them conceptually. And make no > mistake, these are just concepts. The Buddha knows how easy it is to become > lost in the realm of the intellect & ideas. ===== The temple that I attend in Kuala Lumpur is the home of Dr. K. Sri Dhammananda. He has written over 100 books on Buddhism and he is a great inspiration to all who meet him. During his Dhamma talks each week, he never talks about Abhidhamma per-se, but when I have asked him privately to clarify points, it is clear that he knows the subject extremely well. Here is what he writes about the Abhidhamma in his book, "What Buddhists Believe: "The question is raised whether the Abhidhamma is essential for Dhamma practice. The answer to this will depend on the individual who undertakes the practice. People vary in their levels of understanding, their temperaments and spiritual development. Ideally, all the different spiritual faculties should be harmonized, but some people are quite contented with devotional practices based on faith, while others are keen on developing penetrative insight. The Abhidhamma is most useful to those who want to understand the Dhamma in greater depth and detail. It aids the development of insight into the three characteristics of existence - impermanence, unsatisfactoriness, and non-self. It is useful not only for the periods devoted to formal meditation, but also during the rest of the day when we are engaged in various mundane chores. We derive great benefit from the study of the Abhidhamma when we experience absolute reality. In addition, a comprehensive knowledge of the Abhidhamma is useful for those engaged in teaching and explaining the Dhamma. In fact, the real meaning of the most important Buddhist terminologies such as Dhamma, Kamma, Samsara, Sankhara, Paticcasamuppada and Nibbana cannot be understood without a knowledge of Abhidhamma." ===== > Perhaps the commentator > Buddhaghosa had enough time and merit to master both meditation and his > scholarly pursuits, we will never know. I am sure, however, that I have > neither the time nor the accumulated merit to do the same. Therefore, the > best this non-person can do is to sit on a non-cushion and practice > not-practicing. ===== I agree... Don't just do something, sit there! Again, I sincerely appreciate your message. Metta, Rob M :-) 34314 From: kenhowardau Date: Wed Jun 30, 2004 11:11pm Subject: Re: Every Paramattha dhamma can be clearly observed from experience ? Hi Rob M, This conversation we are having has been quite unsettling in a way. Apparently, my understanding of Abhidhamma is very different from yours. It is for this reason, I think, that you have misunderstood most of my questions and I, no doubt, have misunderstood most of your answers. One important matter to clear up is whether citta can or cannot take a citta or a cetasika as its object. A more subtle point is the relative importance of dhammas as against concepts. You think that dhammas (as objects of consciousness) are pretty meaningless in their own right - not much to care about either way. Therefore, you are of the opinion that strong kamma, lobha, alobha and so on all happen in the mind door with concepts as object. I go to opposite extreme. It is just my opinion, but I think that kamma and the other cetasikas are mainly interested in dhammas and we only *think* we are interested in concepts (people, places, situations). I like the analogy Nina gave: a baby can delight in a balloon without having the slightest notion of what a balloon is. But even this analogy can be taken either way. I interpret it to mean that strong lobha can arise to experience visible object without any concept (pannatti) of what is seen. I know Nina did not mean that visible object was meaningless (like balloon-science to a baby (or like a dot of light)). I hope we can clear up some of our different interpretations. It's times like these when I wish I were a better student: instead of letting you and the other well-prepared dsg members battle it out, I could be in there quoting from texts seeing the finer points. In this lifetime, my role seems to be that of enthusiastic onlooker. :-) Kind regards, Ken H 34315 From: Sujjhana Bhinnatta Date: Thu Jul 1, 2004 0:48am Subject: Re: some caution and non-advice Hi Rob, Thank you for your clarification of that post. Forgive my misinterpretation of the intended sarcasm. I too know that it often does not translate well in text form. I do feel it led to a valuable train of thought for me, and now I see it did the same for you. Thank you. ===== Rob:> I strongly agree that theory without practice is useless. I try to > maintain a balance of the two in my life, but the "Rob M" on DSG does > not reflect this balance......In brief, the "Rob M" that you read on > DSG is only half the story. B: I understand the duality. Indeed it is impossible for me to have any sembance of you in my mind based upon our brief encounters in binary form, nor you of me. I can only criticize words and ideas posted online, not the individuals who post them. However, if those letters and meanings are not clear to me I must speak up. Most of the time truthfully I am having a conversation with only myself. Prodding and slapping myself out of a daydream or wrong view. ===== Rob:> Studying the Abhidhamma has taught me that taking the unwholesome > state of mind as an object of consciousness (i.e. seeing it as it is) > is a wholesome state of mind. My meditation teachers say the same > thing (ususally without the Pali jargon). The thought, "I am in pain" > is unwholesome whereas the thought, "pain has arisen" can be > wholesome. B: I agree, and I would wager we could both agree that studying the Abhidhamma is a fruitful activity in that it gives us a model with which to identify those unskillful states. However being true to the wisdom in the Vajracchedika-prajna-paramita sutra, I must add that the model is not and can never become the thing in-and-of-itself. And I would even go so far as to say that ultimately even the model must be relinquished (re: the overused raft analogy). ===== Rob:> My teachers have told me many times that truly and completely > understanding anatta one experiences Nibbana. I am told that the same > is true for anicca and dukkha. Again, I do not believe that anybody > on DSG truly and completely understands anatta. B: I would certainly include myself in that group. It is important to understand this not understanding. Recognizing the three characteristics of anicca, dukkha, and anatta in phenomena is important to all practicioners, not just Arahants. Even if it is only by 'directed thought and evaluation' at first, we must come to understand that what is inconstant is stressfull; what is stressfull is not self nor does it belong to a self. Of the three, it has been my experience that this truth of anatta gives us the most problems. One can almost smell the aversion to the subject every time it is mentioned. It is however, an essential truth to be realized and not just some concept to be claimed as philosophy. I'll end this rant with a reminder that the Buddha himself spent a great deal of his time avoiding the pitfalls of eternalism and nihilism; two hindrances that circle very closely around this anatta business. We must not be heedless. ===== Rob:> One thing that I note from the Suttas is that the Buddha tailored His > approach based on the accumulations of the audience. There are many > forms of practice described in the Suttas. Formal meditation is an > important part of my practice, but for some on DSG, formal meditation > strengthens the idea of a self trying to achieve or control. Ken H > and I were joking about my reluctance to get drawn into a discussion > on this subject. B: Once again, please forgive my misinterpretation of your conversation with Ken. I am always fascinated by the way teaching is listed among the supranormal powers of the Buddha. But then I realize how truly miraculous it was to be able to direct and communicate his experience and understanding to whomever he was speaking with. The Fire Sermon (SN XXXV.28) comes to mind as a perfect example. With regard to formal meditation practice however, I must disagree with those on DSG who harbor the view you mention. The Buddha taught the truth of Right Concentration AND the the truth of Anatta. Using the latter to justify the invalidity of the former could mean one of two things: 1)that one has a wrong understanding of anatta, or 2)that the Buddha contradicted himself and has given us reason to doubt him. My practice (and the fruits of that practice) leaves no room doubt in the tiratana (Triple Gem) and have no recourse but to go with option 1. And yet I still don't understand the perceived aversion to the development of jnana. Not enough time in the day? Did someone get hurt? I remember when I was in grade school, some kid got put into a coma from playing dodgeball in physical education class somewhere in the midwestern United States. Then all of the sudden nobody anywhere could play dodgeball because of the perceived health risks. Is this the case with jnana? Is it now unskillfull to attain jnana? I hope someone could clarify this for me. ===== Rob:> ...Dr. K. Sri > Dhammananda......Here is what he writes about the Abhidhamma > in his book, "What Buddhists Believe: > "The question is raised whether the Abhidhamma is essential for > Dhamma practice. The answer to this will depend on the individual who > undertakes the practice. People vary in their levels of > understanding, their temperaments and spiritual development. Ideally, > all the different spiritual faculties should be harmonized, but some > people are quite contented with devotional practices based on faith, > while others are keen on developing penetrative insight. The > Abhidhamma is most useful to those who want to understand the Dhamma > in greater depth and detail. It aids the development of insight into > the three characteristics of existence - impermanence, > unsatisfactoriness, and non-self. It is useful not only for the > periods devoted to formal meditation, but also during the rest of the > day when we are engaged in various mundane chores. We derive great > benefit from the study of the Abhidhamma when we experience absolute > reality. In addition, a comprehensive knowledge of the Abhidhamma is > useful for those engaged in teaching and explaining the Dhamma. In > fact, the real meaning of the most important Buddhist terminologies > such as Dhamma, Kamma, Samsara, Sankhara, Paticcasamuppada and > Nibbana cannot be understood without a knowledge of Abhidhamma." B: Excellent! Well said. ===== > Again, I sincerely appreciate your message. > Metta, > Rob M :-) B: Thank you for the lesson. I truly value this digital sangha. May we all soon realize perfect enlightenment. May you all be happy and well. Bhinnatta --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.708 / Virus Database: 464 - Release Date: 6/18/2004 34316 From: robmoult Date: Thu Jul 1, 2004 1:37am Subject: Re: Every Paramattha dhamma can be clearly observed from experience ? Hi Ken H, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > This conversation we are having has been quite unsettling in a way. > Apparently, my understanding of Abhidhamma is very different from > yours. It is for this reason, I think, that you have misunderstood > most of my questions and I, no doubt, have misunderstood most of > your answers. > > One important matter to clear up is whether citta can or cannot take > a citta or a cetasika as its object. ===== Bhikku Bodhi's Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma (p136) says: Six kinds of objects fall into the category of mental object (dhammarammana). Sensitive matter (pasadarupa) is the sensory receptive substance in the five sense organs; it is fivefold, eye- sensitivity, ear-sensitivity, etc. Subtle matter (sukhumarupa) includes sixteen species of material phenomena enumerated below, among them the water element. Citta is also a type of mental object. Though citta experiences objects, citta in turn can become an object. It should be noted that a citta in its immediacy cannot become its own object, for the cognizer cannot cognize itself; but a citta in an individual mental continuum can experience earlier cittas in that same mental continuum as well as the cittas of other beings. The fifty two cetasikas can also become objects of a mind door process, as for example, when one becomes aware of one's feelings, volitions and emotions. Nibbana becomes the object of cittas occurring in the mental processes of noble individuals, both trainees and Arahants. Concepts - the class of conventional realities, things which do not exist in the ultimate sense - also fall into the category of mental object. Normally, the Abhidhamma is very precise with its use of terms. The one glaring exception is the use of the term "citta". The Abhidhamma uses it both for the paramattha dhamma of consciousness and for the mental state which is a combination of the paramattha dhamma of consciousness and a set of mental factors (paramattha dhammas of cetasikas). In my class, I am very careful to only use the term "citta" to refer to the paramattha dhamma and I use the term "mental state" for the combination of citta + cetasikas. As I read Bhikkhu Bodhi's text above, I believe that he is talking about mental states as being the object of mind-door processes. I do not interpret his writing as implying that one can be aware of the paramattha dhamma of citta in isolation of the mental state, nor do I interpret his writing as implying that one can be aware of a specific cetasikas in isolation of the paramattha dhammas (citta and cetasikas) that accompany it. ===== > > A more subtle point is the relative importance of dhammas as against > concepts. You think that dhammas (as objects of consciousness) are > pretty meaningless in their own right - not much to care about > either way. Therefore, you are of the opinion that strong kamma, > lobha, alobha and so on all happen in the mind door with concepts as > object. ===== Not quite. I am of the opinion that the lobha that arises during the sense door process is attachment to visible object. This is the sensuous clinging that is weakened by a Sakadagami and uprooted by an Anagami. It is the "I like to have a visible object" type of clinging. As per the CMA quote from my earlier message, following this sense door process is a conformal mind door process followed by many mind door processes that grasp the object as a whole, followed by many mind door processes that recognize the colour (at this point the pre-naming baby has the "I like blue" type of clinging). This is then followed by the grasping the shape of the object (at this point the pre-naming baby has the "I like the shape" type of clinging). This is followed by the recognizing the shape (at this point the pre- naming baby may or may not have the "I like round things" type of clinging; it depends if the baby knows the concept of "round" yet). This is followed by grasping of name mind-door processes and recognizing of name mind-door processes. When you first fell in love (love is as strong an emotion as I can imagine), how much of that love was really love for that person (did you really know them that well???) versus love with the way that you felt (love with the idea of being in love)? And when you fell in love, was it really her eyes, her hair, etc. that prompted those strong feelings? (sorry for getting personal, no need to answer). I am of the opinion that the lobha gets progressively stronger as the pattern of processes progresses. A baby in the womb can react to sound and light, but the lobha created is very, very weak. I am not sure about your use of the terms "importance", "meaningless" and "not much to care about". Everything arises because of conditions. The sense input is a condition that triggers the whole pattern of processes. The progression of the pattern of processes depends on accumulations (defilements, etc.). Mental proliferation does not arise without contact. The pressure exerted by a finger on the trigger is small, but because of conditions, this small pressure sets into a motion a sequence of events that results in a bullet whizzing through the air. Would we say in this case that the pressure of the finger of the trigger was "unimportant", "meaningless" or "not much to care about"? ===== > > I go to opposite extreme. It is just my opinion, but I think that > kamma and the other cetasikas are mainly interested in dhammas and > we only *think* we are interested in concepts (people, places, > situations). ===== Please expand on your opinion. It sounds interesting. I have never learned anything from anybody who agreed with me. ===== > > I like the analogy Nina gave: a baby can delight in a balloon > without having the slightest notion of what a balloon is. > > But even this analogy can be taken either way. I interpret it to > mean that strong lobha can arise to experience visible object > without any concept (pannatti) of what is seen. I know Nina did not > mean that visible object was meaningless (like balloon-science to a > baby (or like a dot of light)). ===== I have given my interpretation of the pre-naming baby above. ===== > I hope we can clear up some of our different interpretations. It's > times like these when I wish I were a better student: instead of > letting you and the other well-prepared dsg members battle it out, I > could be in there quoting from texts seeing the finer points. In > this lifetime, my role seems to be that of enthusiastic onlooker. :- ) ===== I find these discussions to be of great value. I really appreciate the opportunity to fine tune my understanding (and in some cases, through my wrong ideas out the window). Metta, Rob M :-) 34317 From: Philip Date: Thu Jul 1, 2004 1:52am Subject: The value of papanca ( msg #524 from Rob K) Hello all As you know, I've been wondering about papanca, and have been reading the Useful Posts on the subject. I found this interesting letter from Rob K (#524, from September 2000) that lays out how the study of one word (in this case papanca) can generate helpful insight. It shows me that papanca is not something to be avoided anxiously, but more material for the grist mill of experience leading to understanding. I think it also shows how a form of practice that might appear intellectual and self-driven on the surface (study of one word from the Pali canon) generates better understanding of not-self. Towards the end, it also reminds me that there are countless lifetimes to come before I begin to have real understanding, so patience is best. Patiently dealing with papanca and learning from it as from all akusala rather than trying in vain to choke it off. Metta, Phil --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Robert Kirkpatrick wrote: > Dear GROUP > Theresa sent us some translations of some suttas > (see posting danger and friend). Thank you Theresa. > Studying the Titipika ?Ethe Vinaya, the Suttanta, the > Abhidhamma is the only way to learn what it was that > the Buddha taught. If we don't know what he taught how > can we practice correctly? We might be practicing > something different from the Buddha's teaching. > > But how do we study? > Every word in the Tipitika is worth investigating. > Every sentence has deep meaning. > Let us consider the word "complication?E This was > In the Anguttara Nikaya VIII.30 > Anuruddha Sutta > One of the suttas that Theresa emailed, in one > sentence the Buddha told Anuruddha > This Dhamma is for one who > enjoys non-complication, who delights in > non-complication, not for > one who enjoys & delights in complication.(snip) What do you think the Buddha meant by complication and > non-complication? I once heard someone -referring to > this sutta- say this meant people should not think too > much because this complicates things and takes people > away from the present moment. And in a superficial way > there is something in this. But we can always learn > more. > > Complication in this sutta is the English translation > for papanca. There are three papanca ?Etanha (desire), > ditthi(view) and mana (conceit). (see netti pakarana > paragraph 203, 204).These three are said to prolong > samasara vata , the round of births and deaths. > And now we may want to understand what the Buddha > mean by tanha, for example? Is tanha something we have > only when we want sex or get hungry or go shopping? Or > is there more to it? So we study a little more - we > learn that the Buddha said tanha was samudaya sacca > the cause for dukkha. The Patisamabhidhi magga ( I > 597) says that wordly life is diversified (another > word for papanca ) by 108 kinds of tanha. Tanha is > also one of the factors in the paticcusamupada. In the > Nidana- Vagga of the Samyutta Nikaya: > The Buddha said: I will teach you, monks, the origin > of repeated birth and passing away of beings in this > world. What, monks, is the origin of beings? > On account of the eye base and visible object, eye > consciousness arises. Contact (phassa) is the > conjunction of the three; through contact, feeling > arises; through feeling desire(TANHA) arises; through > desire attachment (upadana) arises; through attachment > bhava (process of becoming) arises; through becoming > birth arises; through birth decay and death, sorrow, > lamentation. > The Buddha then repeated this for the other doors of > ear, nose, tongue taste body and mind. > > Then we might wonder ?Ewell is this process of > Paticcusamupada happening now, at this moment? Now > there is seeing, there is phassa, there is feeling. Is > there tanha? If one investigates in daily life just > this question over and over one may learn that even > when the feeling is very neutral tanha may be > present.?EFor example I am sitting in my office in > Japan and just glanced at the pastel coloured wall- no > particular like or dislike noticeable at that moment > and yet could tanha of some degree, even if it wasn't > apparent have arisen? Only by studying directly these > moments in daily life can we find out the answers and > really learn just what life is and what the Buddha > taught. > > Do we want to stop this tanha, try and suppress it? > Well that is one way (and in fact it was my early > practice). But we can also understand it; and I think > that is most useful. Then we can study its > characteristic more. We might find that it is very > common indeed. We might learn that when we try to have > sati that tanha can come in and masquerade as sati. > But if we are prepared to study tanha again and > again ?Eand of course not neglect the direct study of > all other realities- we might become wary of its > tricks. We might start to see the difference between > true sati and the manifold counterfeits that are > actually tanha, a papanca, a prolonger of samasara. > Also we might find out that when we thought we had > sati often that this was merely mana, conceit ?Ea > papanca, a prolonger of samsara. AND we might begin > to realize that when we had the idea that we could > make sati arise by concentrating that this is an idea > of control, of self. That it is ditthi, another > papanca, prolonger of samsara. If we find these things > out we are learning something of immeasurable value. > We are learning what we really are ?Ea skin bag > stuffed with kilesa. Then we are beginning to > comprehend what this path involves. > > This letter started off to discuss one word from a > sutta ?Epapanca .So far we haven't even scratched the > surface on one aspect of papanca. > That is to be expected. One aeon is so long ?EBillions > and billions of years, maybe longer. The Buddha took > four incalculably long periods of time plus one > hundred thousand aeons to develop the wisdom to become > a Buddha . We don't have to develop parami to the > extent of a Buddha but it still takes a long, long > time. We might hope that we are the developed ones who > have so much parami already but this is just tanha, > one of the papanca, or we may be sure we are ones who > already have great parami, but this is mana, another > papanca, a prolonger of samasara. During these many > aeons in countless lives the Buddha was firm to keep > investigating. It says in the Madhuratthavilisini, the > commentary to the Buddhavamsa (chapter on sumedha IIA > p155) that the Bodhisatta at the time of Dipankara > Buddha, 24 Buddhas ago, was investigating the parami > of wisdom. He realized what needed to be done and made > this aspiration that "questioning discerning people > all the time (he would) go on to the perfection of > wisdom?E > > But how did he question wise people? Certainly not in > a careless way. He must have evaluated the answers so > rigorously and then considered how to ask even more > discerning questions. Nor did he ask in a way that > wanted to show off his wisdom. He sincerely wanted to > learn. Developing this skill in questioning is part of > the path. Some are not yet ready even for this. This > too depends on accumulations. This skill might sound > trivial but it takes time, in fact lifetimes to > develop. If it is not developed then one could discuss > with many helpful people but get nothing from it. > > It is our attitude when investigating that is > important. One could be intent on learning about > papanca, for example, but be unaware of the cittas > while studying and not even realize that sometimes it > was papanca motivating the study. If that is the case > then no great benefit comes from such research. We > need to bear in mind that the purpose of study, the > purpose of discussion is to help us better understand > this moment. > SO I write all this just as much for myself as anyone > else. I need to develop more listening skills, more > questioning skills . I need to study much more , > countless times more the characteristics of tanha and > mana and ditthi. I need to consider more, much more > the words in the Tipitika. > > Robert 34318 From: robmoult Date: Thu Jul 1, 2004 2:25am Subject: Re: The value of papanca ( msg #524 from Rob K) Hi Phil, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Philip" wrote: > As you know, I've been wondering about papanca, and have been > reading the Useful Posts on the subject. I did not know that you were studying papanca. One or two books from my library have sections on papanca that might be of interest to you. Option 1 is for you to email to me a fax number Option 2 is for you to email me your snail mail address Metta, Rob M :-) 34319 From: robmoult Date: Thu Jul 1, 2004 5:31am Subject: Re: The value of papanca ( msg #524 from Rob K) Hi Phil, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Philip" wrote: > > As you know, I've been wondering about papanca, and have been > > reading the Useful Posts on the subject. > > I did not know that you were studying papanca. One or two books from > my library have sections on papanca that might be of interest to you. > > Option 1 is for you to email to me a fax number > > Option 2 is for you to email me your snail mail address Sorry Phil, option 1 will not work. The book that I have, "Concept and Reality in Early Buddhist Thought" by Bhikkhu Nanananda is dedicated to a discussion of papanca and it runs to more than 150 pages. Let me know if you are THAT interested in papanca :-) Metta, Rob M :-) 34320 From: robmoult Date: Thu Jul 1, 2004 5:41am Subject: Re: The value of papanca ( msg #524 from Rob K) Hi Phil, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" > wrote: > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Philip" > wrote: > > > As you know, I've been wondering about papanca, and have been > > > reading the Useful Posts on the subject. > > > > I did not know that you were studying papanca. One or two books > from > > my library have sections on papanca that might be of interest to > you. > > > > Option 1 is for you to email to me a fax number > > > > Option 2 is for you to email me your snail mail address > > Sorry Phil, option 1 will not work. The book that I have, "Concept > and Reality in Early Buddhist Thought" by Bhikkhu Nanananda is > dedicated to a discussion of papanca and it runs to more than 150 > pages. Let me know if you are THAT interested in papanca :-) I found another papanca book that I read years ago titled, "Buddhist Psychology of Perception" by E.R. Sarachchandra (his PhD thesis). It is just over 100 pages. If you are really, really interested in this subject, I will mail you copies of both books. Metta, Rob M :-) 34321 From: Philip Date: Thu Jul 1, 2004 5:57am Subject: Greed -> faith? (was Re: The value of papanca ( msg #524 from Rob K) Hi Rob Thank you kindly. I will contact you off-list. A volume that you recommend and could lend a budding Abhidhamma devotee would be greatly appreciated over the upcoming summer holiday. I wondered if my desire to devour Dhamma material these days (since I came across Abhidhamma in Daily Life in February, actually) represents a kind of attachment or greed - well, I was aware that it must be, but felt comforted by a sense that it was a kind of greed that was pulling me towards understanding that would eventually see through the greed and lead to liberation from it. I found something interesting in Visuddhimagga III-75 that encouraged me and seemed that it might confirm my suspicion on this point: "One of faithful temperament is parallel to one of greedy temperament because faith is strong when profitable (meaning kusala, I take it) khamma occurs in one of greedy temperament, owing to its special qualities being near to those of greed. For, in an unprofitable (akusala) way greed is affectionate and not over- austere, and so, in a profitable way, is faith. Greed seeks out sense desires as object while faith seeks out the special qualities of virtue and so on. And greed does not give up what is harmful, while faith does not give up what is beneficial." The idea of "temperament" doesn't seem to fit with annata, though I guess it can be explained by accumulations. But it's certainly interesting to consider that my unwholesome greed for Dhamma reading might be bringing me closer to wholesome faith. Wishful thinking on my part, no doubt, because the passage doesn't contain anything about the greedy person shedding greed for good and becoming one of faithful temperament. It only says " when profitable khamma occurs." Metta, Phil --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" wrote: > Hi Phil, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Philip" wrote: > > As you know, I've been wondering about papanca, and have been > > reading the Useful Posts on the subject. > > I did not know that you were studying papanca. One or two books from > my library have sections on papanca that might be of interest to you. > > Option 1 is for you to email to me a fax number > > Option 2 is for you to email me your snail mail address > > Metta, > Rob M :-) 34322 From: Philip Date: Thu Jul 1, 2004 6:04am Subject: Re: The value of papanca ( msg #524 from Rob K) Hi Rob Oops. Cross-posted yet again. Since we're in the same time zone I guess we're DSGing around the same time quite often. Well, not THAT interested in Papanca, I guess. Not yet. I am heading into Cetasikas by Nina, to be followed by Conditions, and have ordered the Manual of Abhidhamma, so I guess my summer reading will be covered after all. But it was a very kind offer. If you have any spare copies of commentaries or other books that you find are cluttering your shelves I will give them a good home, I can assure you. :) Metta, Phil --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" wrote: > Hi Phil, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" > wrote: > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" > > > wrote: > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Philip" > > wrote: > > > > As you know, I've been wondering about papanca, and have been > > > > reading the Useful Posts on the subject. > > > > > > I did not know that you were studying papanca. One or two books > > from > > > my library have sections on papanca that might be of interest to > > you. > > > > > > Option 1 is for you to email to me a fax number > > > > > > Option 2 is for you to email me your snail mail address > > > > Sorry Phil, option 1 will not work. The book that I have, "Concept > > and Reality in Early Buddhist Thought" by Bhikkhu Nanananda is > > dedicated to a discussion of papanca and it runs to more than 150 > > pages. Let me know if you are THAT interested in papanca :-) > > I found another papanca book that I read years ago titled, "Buddhist > Psychology of Perception" by E.R. Sarachchandra (his PhD thesis). It > is just over 100 pages. If you are really, really interested in this > subject, I will mail you copies of both books. > > Metta, > Rob M :-) 34323 From: Date: Thu Jul 1, 2004 2:19am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Every Paramattha dhamma can be clearly observed from experience ? Hi, Ken (and Rob) - In a message dated 7/1/04 2:13:45 AM Eastern Daylight Time, kenhowardau@y... writes: > Hi Rob M, > > This conversation we are having has been quite unsettling in a way. > Apparently, my understanding of Abhidhamma is very different from > yours. It is for this reason, I think, that you have misunderstood > most of my questions and I, no doubt, have misunderstood most of > your answers. > > One important matter to clear up is whether citta can or cannot take > a citta or a cetasika as its object. > > A more subtle point is the relative importance of dhammas as against > concepts. You think that dhammas (as objects of consciousness) are > pretty meaningless in their own right â€" not much to care about > either way. Therefore, you are of the opinion that strong kamma, > lobha, alobha and so on all happen in the mind door with concepts as > object. > > I go to opposite extreme. It is just my opinion, but I think that > kamma and the other cetasikas are mainly interested in dhammas and > we only *think* we are interested in concepts (people, places, > situations). ---------------------------------------------- Howard: I largely agree with your position on this, Ken. I believe that our reactions (of craving, aversion, and attachment) are associated with dhammas that are not conceptually constructed. However, these dhammas typically are associated with and underlie concepts, but it erroneously *seems* that it is the pa~n~natti that we react to rather than the underlying dhammas. Actually, as the Buddha said, it is vedana to which we react with tanha and upadana, and I suspect that most of the time the vedana we react to is vedana associated with bodily sensation. Even when we fantasize something that results in craving or aversion, what I suspect happens is that the thinking results immediately in physical sensations that we find pleasant or unpleasant, and it is to these pleasant or unpleasant sensations that we then react with craving or aversion. ----------------------------------------------------- > > I like the analogy Nina gave: a baby can delight in a balloon > without having the slightest notion of what a balloon is. > ----------------------------------------------------- Howard: Mmm. I suspect that while there are no concepts in the form of definitional understanding and discursive thoughts arising, there *is* primitive, low-level conceptualization going on already involving some degree of cognitive proliferation. I don't think that it is the mere visual and tactile experiences that give the delight the baby experiences. The tactile experiences may produce pleasant or unpleasant feelings, the visual experiences may produce neutral feelings, and subsequent mind-door experiences may produce further vedana. These feelings will lead to recognition (sa~n~na) of a low degree, and then subsequent cognitive proliferation will lead to positive or negative reaction. The real *delight* comes when the baby reaches for the balloon and his/her actions are seen to have consequences such as (the assemblage of dhammas underlying what we call) the balloon bouncing away, and this involves subliminal, non-discursive, cognitive proliferation. However, that delight, ultimately, I believe is direct reaction not to concepts but to the pleasant or unpleasant bodily sensations resulting from the conceptual experiencing. So, still, it isn't the concepts to which there is direct reaction, but physical sensations. ------------------------------------------------------ > > But even this analogy can be taken either way. I interpret it to > mean that strong lobha can arise to experience visible object > without any concept (pannatti) of what is seen. I know Nina did not > mean that visible object was meaningless (like balloon-science to a > baby (or like a dot of light)). > ---------------------------------------------- Howard: I don't think that is so. Visual experience *without some degree of conceptualizing* wouldn't produce anything other than neutral feeling, and the only affective reaction to that would be neutral. ---------------------------------------------- > > I hope we can clear up some of our different interpretations. It's > times like these when I wish I were a better student: instead of > letting you and the other well-prepared dsg members battle it out, I > could be in there quoting from texts seeing the finer points. In > this lifetime, my role seems to be that of enthusiastic onlooker. :-) > > Kind regards, > Ken H > > ============================ With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 34324 From: robmoult Date: Thu Jul 1, 2004 6:25am Subject: Greed -> faith? (was Re: The value of papanca ( msg #524 from Rob K) Hi Phil, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Philip" wrote: > I wondered if my desire to devour Dhamma material these days > (since I came across Abhidhamma in Daily Life in February, actually) > represents a kind of attachment or greed - well, I was aware that it > must be, but felt comforted by a sense that it was a kind of greed > that was pulling me towards understanding that would eventually see > through the greed and lead to liberation from it. > > I found something interesting in Visuddhimagga III-75 that > encouraged me and seemed that it might confirm my suspicion on this > point: "One of faithful temperament is parallel to one of greedy > temperament because faith is strong when profitable (meaning kusala, > I take it) khamma occurs in one of greedy temperament, owing to its > special qualities being near to those of greed. For, in an > unprofitable (akusala) way greed is affectionate and not over- > austere, and so, in a profitable way, is faith. Greed seeks out sense > desires as object while faith seeks out the special qualities of > virtue and so on. And greed does not give up what is harmful, while > faith does not give up what is beneficial." > > The idea of "temperament" doesn't seem to fit with annata, though I > guess it can be explained by accumulations. But it's certainly > interesting to consider that my unwholesome greed for Dhamma reading > might be bringing me closer to wholesome faith. Wishful thinking on > my part, no doubt, because the passage doesn't contain anything about > the greedy person shedding greed for good and becoming one of > faithful temperament. It only says " when profitable khamma occurs." You are touching on a term called carita. The term "carita" is found in the Abhidhamma, Visuddhimagga and the Vimutthimagga (a precursor to the Visuddhimagga that focuses on meditation); it is often translated as "temperament", "personal nature", "propensity" or "character". The Abhidhammatthasangaha lists forty meditation subjects. By understanding our own caritas (one may have a combination of caritas), we can select appropriate meditation objects. A person with an incorrect meditation object will find spiritual progress difficult. There are cases where Sariputta approached the Buddha for advice when one of Sariputta's students was not progressing; in these cases the Buddha would recommend a different meditation object. Raga-carita By nature, they are lustful, greedy or passionate; they have a propensity for desire and longing. The appropriate meditation subject is 10 kinds of foulness, 32 parts of the body. Dosa-carita By nature, they are hateful, angry; they have a propensity for irritation and anger. The appropriate meditation subject is the four illimitable and the 4 coloured kasinas. Moha-carita By nature, they are deluded; they have a propensity for delusion and superstition. Breathing is the appropriate meditation subject. Saddha-cartia By nature, they are faithful; they have a propensity to gullibility and snap judgments. The appropriate meditation subjects are the 6 recollections of the Buddha. Buddhi-carita By nature, they are intellectual, intelligent; they have a propensity to curiosity and reasoning things through. The appropriate meditation subjects are the 4 elements, loathsomeness of food, death, peace. Vitakka-carita By nature, they are discursive, speculative, ruminating or pondering; they have a propensity to excessive thought and worry. Breathing is the appropriate meditation subject. Other meditation subjects are suitable for all types of carita The texts considers these caritas in pairs: - Raga-carita does not give up on what is harmful while saddha-carita does not give up on what is beneficial. - Dosa-carita is disaffected and does not hold onto its object in an unprofitable way while buddhi-carita is also disaffected and does not hold onto its object, albeit in a profitable way. - Moha-carita vacillates due to superficiality while vitakka-carita vacillates due to conjecturing. It is important to remember the purpose of these classifications; to select meditation subjects. As I recall, the texts even go so far as to recommend the most appropriate type of place for each to meditate and even the type of food they should eat. This is also one of the few places that Buddhaghosa mentions a specific source (Upatissa's Vimuttimagga), says that he disagrees and offers his own position. An interesting topic... if you are interested in formal meditation :-) Metta, Rob M :-) 34325 From: robmoult Date: Thu Jul 1, 2004 7:09am Subject: [dsg] Re: Every Paramattha dhamma can be clearly observed from experience ? Hi Howard (and Ken), --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Howard: > I largely agree with your position on this, Ken. I believe that our > reactions (of craving, aversion, and attachment) are associated with dhammas > that are not conceptually constructed. However, these dhammas typically are > associated with and underlie concepts, but it erroneously *seems* that it is the > pa~n~natti that we react to rather than the underlying dhammas. Actually, as the > Buddha said, it is vedana to which we react with tanha and upadana, and I > suspect that most of the time the vedana we react to is vedana associated with > bodily sensation. Even when we fantasize something that results in craving or > aversion, what I suspect happens is that the thinking results immediately in > physical sensations that we find pleasant or unpleasant, and it is to these > pleasant or unpleasant sensations that we then react with craving or aversion. > ----------------------------------------------------- ===== I am having a hard time with this. You mention vedana as a foundation for tanha and upadana. That is how the Buddha described it in paticcasamuppada, when he was talking about what binds us to rebirth in samsara. However, when the Buddha talked about how thoughts progress, He did not introduce tanha or upadana. It was in the Honeyball Sutta (Mn 18) that the Buddha talked most clearly about how thoughts progress: "Dependent on eye and forms, eye consciousness arises. The meeting of the three is contact. With contact as a condition there is feeling." [Rob: This explains that feeling arises naturally and objectively from contact.] "What one feels, that one names. What one names, that one thinks about. What one thinks about, that one mentally proliferates." [Rob: The wording makes it clear that the process of naming, thinking about and mental proliferation are subjective.] "With what one has mentally proliferated as the source, perceptions and notions tinged by mentally proliferation beset a man with respect to past, future and present forms cognizable though the eye." [Rob: Mental proliferation adds to what is seen; it then feeds upon itself, covering over the true nature of the object, layer by layer.] Howard (and Ken), my intepretation of this Sutta is that the real problems in thinking occur at the conceptualization stage rather than the feeling stage. The Mulapariyaya Sutta (Mn 1) describes the differences in how the thoughts of an uninstructed worldling (that's us) progress, as compared to how the thoughts of a trainee (Sotapanna / Sakadagami / Anagami) progess, as compared to how the thoughts of an Arahant progress, as compared to how the thoughts of the Buddha progress. In this Sutta, the Buddha explains that the uninstructed worldling gets off track at the perception stage ("percieves" with sannavipallasa versus "directy knows"), but that the real problems occur at the conceptualization stage. WARNING: without a detailed commentary, the Mulapariyaya Sutta seems to make almost no sense. I have a 75-page book on this Sutta written by Bhikkhu Bodhi and it is still very tough reading. Metta, Rob M :-) 34326 From: Date: Thu Jul 1, 2004 4:17am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Every Paramattha dhamma can be clearly observed from experience ? Hi, Rob (and Ken) - In a message dated 7/1/04 10:14:45 AM Eastern Daylight Time, rob.moult@j... writes: > Hi Howard (and Ken), > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > >Howard: > > I largely agree with your position on this, Ken. I believe > that our > >reactions (of craving, aversion, and attachment) are associated > with dhammas > >that are not conceptually constructed. However, these dhammas > typically are > >associated with and underlie concepts, but it erroneously *seems* > that it is the > >pa~n~natti that we react to rather than the underlying dhammas. > Actually, as the > >Buddha said, it is vedana to which we react with tanha and upadana, > and I > >suspect that most of the time the vedana we react to is vedana > associated with > >bodily sensation. Even when we fantasize something that results in > craving or > >aversion, what I suspect happens is that the thinking results > immediately in > >physical sensations that we find pleasant or unpleasant, and it is > to these > >pleasant or unpleasant sensations that we then react with craving > or aversion. > >----------------------------------------------------- > > ===== > > I am having a hard time with this. You mention vedana as a foundation > for tanha and upadana. That is how the Buddha described it in > paticcasamuppada, when he was talking about what binds us to rebirth > in samsara. However, when the Buddha talked about how thoughts > progress, He did not introduce tanha or upadana. > ---------------------------------------------- Howard: Well, not everything is discussed everywhere. But even here I think that tanha reaction is implied, as I will point out shortly. ---------------------------------------------- It was in the > > Honeyball Sutta (Mn 18) that the Buddha talked most clearly about how > thoughts progress: > > "Dependent on eye and forms, eye consciousness arises. The meeting of > the three is contact. With contact as a condition there is feeling." > > [Rob: This explains that feeling arises naturally and objectively > from contact.] > ------------------------------------------ Howard: Agreed. ------------------------------------------ > > "What one feels, that one names. ------------------------------------------- Howard: That is, one recognizes. (Operation of sa~n~na.) ------------------------------------------- > What one names, that one thinks > about. What one thinks about, that one mentally proliferates." > > [Rob: The wording makes it clear that the process of naming, thinking > about and mental proliferation are subjective.] ------------------------------------------------- Howard: Sure. ------------------------------------------------ > > "With what one has mentally proliferated as the source, perceptions > and notions tinged by mentally proliferation beset a man with respect > to past, future and present forms cognizable though the eye." > > [Rob: Mental proliferation adds to what is seen; it then feeds upon > itself, covering over the true nature of the object, layer by layer.] > ----------------------------------------------- Howard: Elsewhere, the word 'assail' is used instead of 'beset'. In any case, I take this being assailed or beset by notions to consist in papa~nca --> bodily sensation --> pleasant or unpleasant vedana --> reaction of craving or aversion. This all takes place as the result of conceptual proliferation - I agree completely, but the reaction is not directly to the concepts but to the vedana resulting (in a few steps) from the conceptualizing. ------------------------------------------------- > > Howard (and Ken), my intepretation of this Sutta is that the real > problems in thinking occur at the conceptualization stage rather than > the feeling stage. > ------------------------------------------------- Howard: I believe there are multiple feeling stages. The most powerful ones, and I think this is your sense, and I agree with it, occur as the result of conceptualizing. But always, reactions of craving and aversion are to vedana (mediated by sa~n~na). The more powerful vedana resulting from mental embellishment produces the more powerful reactions. ------------------------------------------------- > > The Mulapariyaya Sutta (Mn 1) describes the differences in how the > thoughts of an uninstructed worldling (that's us) progress, as > compared to how the thoughts of a trainee (Sotapanna / Sakadagami / > Anagami) progess, as compared to how the thoughts of an Arahant > progress, as compared to how the thoughts of the Buddha progress. > > In this Sutta, the Buddha explains that the uninstructed worldling > gets off track at the perception stage ("percieves" with > sannavipallasa versus "directy knows"), but that the real problems > occur at the conceptualization stage. > > WARNING: without a detailed commentary, the Mulapariyaya Sutta seems > to make almost no sense. I have a 75-page book on this Sutta written > by Bhikkhu Bodhi and it is still very tough reading. > > Metta, > Rob M :-) > > =========================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 34327 From: Gis Lene Date: Thu Jul 1, 2004 7:35am Subject: hello Dear friends. My name is Gislene. I am new in this list. I am brazilian, living in São Paulo and I am very very interested in learning and practice buddhism. I think it is possible to use these principles, philosophy and psychology in many areas. So I want to learn about that and first of all learn and practice that principles in my own life. If you know how I can start this here in São Paulo, please, let me know. Last year I went to some Kadampa, Nyingma meetings. For many reasons I stopped my learning and I´m back now for others many reasons. One of theses reasons is because I realise the similarity between the buddhistic philosophy and the Hunas philosophy. So, I think it is the time to put more energy and learn more about both. I am not sure about the Theravada tradition. Is it the same learning of the Kadampa tradition? Is the Lamrin meditation the same in Nyingma and in the Theravada? Sorry for my english and for my questions, but I am just starting in all the meaning of that word has. Regards. Gislene _________________________________________________________________ MSN Messenger: converse com os seus amigos online. http://messenger.msn.com.br 34328 From: icarofranca Date: Thu Jul 1, 2004 1:26pm Subject: Re: hello Hi Gislene! > My name is Gislene. I am new in this list. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Welcome to the noblest company of Dhamma Students that never strode across the beautiful Northern Canada's woods ! My name is Ícaro and I am brazillian too: you find here the more substantial food for your soul ( I beg your pardon for this evident abuse of language...hahah!!!). Theravada Buddhism is the more ancient, mystical and classical of all buddhistic denominations and here you will met the best on Pali texts' exegesis (Nina Van Gorkon and RobMoult),good reasoning and questioning about many canonical texts, with cute remarks on interesting aspects about these and others landmarks of Buddha's Doctrine (Larry Sabu, Howard, Rob Epstein, the other Ken,Bhikkhu Samahitta, Sarah and Jon Abbott), much heartwarming thoughts about the most delicate aspects of Doctrine (Chris, Connie, Nori, Azita, Phil, Sukin) or just fun and pranking with serious issues (ME!!!!). ---------------------------------------------------------------------- I think it is possible to use these > principles, philosophy and psychology in many areas. So I want to learn > about that and first of all learn and practice that principles in my own > life. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- One thing you will easily perceive here, Gislene, is the fact that Buddha teached the Dhamma in many ways and modes...so no one here will spend time discussing about methods of meditation, because the use of these and other issues on Doctrine remain a personal research and a personal understanding of everyone here. You can gather up many excelent fruits on Nina Van Gorkon's texts, mainly the "Abhidhamma in daily Life". You will get posted here at our files many interesting texts to download... or you can try a direct attack on original texts, as I did, with the best results!!!! --------------------------------------------------------------------- > If you know how I can start this here in São Paulo, please, let me know. --------------------------------------------------------------------- You can try "A Casa do Dhamma",ín São Paulo. it's theravada but I haven't much more info about it. Here in Rio exists a traditional theravada temple at Santa Teresa...but it lacks time for me to visit the Bhikkhus and give some Dana ( I promise I'll do it, RobMoult!!!!!) --------------------------------------------------------------------- > I am not sure about the Theravada tradition. Is it the same learning of the > Kadampa tradition? Is the Lamrin meditation the same in Nyingma and in the > Theravada? --------------------------------------------------------------------- Not at all. Nyingma, kadampa, "Mind Only", etc, are of mahayana basis...that's entirely different of Theravada's: the true repository of the original words, teachings and meditation techniques of Buddha. --------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Sorry for my english and for my questions, but I am just starting in all the > meaning of that word has. > ------------------------------------------------------------------ You are welcome!!! Mettaya, Ícaro 34329 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Thu Jul 1, 2004 2:10pm Subject: Re: hello Hi Gislene, Welcome ot DSG. For more information on the Theravada tradition, I recommend the website Access to Insight Readings in Theravada Buddhism http://www.accesstoinsight.org Peace, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Gis Lene" wrote: > Dear friends. > > My name is Gislene. I am new in this list. > I am brazilian, living in São Paulo and I am very very interested in > learning and practice buddhism. I think it is possible to use these > principles, philosophy and psychology in many areas. So I want to learn > about that and first of all learn and practice that principles in my own > life. > If you know how I can start this here in São Paulo, please, let me know. > Last year I went to some Kadampa, Nyingma meetings. For many reasons I > stopped my learning and I´m back now for others many reasons. One of theses > reasons is because I realise the similarity between the buddhistic > philosophy and the Hunas philosophy. So, I think it is the time to put more > energy and learn more about both. > I am not sure about the Theravada tradition. Is it the same learning of the > Kadampa tradition? Is the Lamrin meditation the same in Nyingma and in the > Theravada? > > Sorry for my english and for my questions, but I am just starting in all the > meaning of that word has. > > Regards. > > Gislene 34330 From: icarofranca Date: Thu Jul 1, 2004 2:10pm Subject: Greed -> faith? (was Re: The value of papanca ( msg #524 from Rob K) Hi RobMoult!!! > You are touching on a term called carita. The term "carita" is >found > in the Abhidhamma, Visuddhimagga and the Vimutthimagga (a precursor > to the Visuddhimagga that focuses on meditation); it is often > translated as "temperament", "personal nature", "propensity" > or "character". The Abhidhammatthasangaha lists forty meditation > subjects. By understanding our own caritas (one may have a > combination of caritas), we can select appropriate meditation > objects. A person with an incorrect meditation object will find > spiritual progress difficult. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Cf. Visuddhimagga, chapter 3, just before the explanation about the Kasinas...I am reading again the Vism. and founding more and more treasures!!! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Raga-carita > By nature, they are lustful, greedy or passionate; they have a > propensity for desire and longing. The appropriate meditation subject > is 10 kinds of foulness, 32 parts of the body. > > Dosa-carita > By nature, they are hateful, angry; they have a propensity for > irritation and anger. The appropriate meditation subject is the four > illimitable and the 4 coloured kasinas. > > Moha-carita > By nature, they are deluded; they have a propensity for delusion and > superstition. Breathing is the appropriate meditation subject. > > Saddha-cartia > By nature, they are faithful; they have a propensity to gullibility > and snap judgments. The appropriate meditation subjects are the 6 > recollections of the Buddha. > > Buddhi-carita > By nature, they are intellectual, intelligent; they have a propensity > to curiosity and reasoning things through. The appropriate meditation > subjects are the 4 elements, loathsomeness of food, death, peace. > > Vitakka-carita > By nature, they are discursive, speculative, ruminating or pondering; > they have a propensity to excessive thought and worry. Breathing is > the appropriate meditation subject. > > Other meditation subjects are suitable for all types of carita > > The texts considers these caritas in pairs: > - Raga-carita does not give up on what is harmful while saddha- carita > does not give up on what is beneficial. > - Dosa-carita is disaffected and does not hold onto its object in an > unprofitable way while buddhi-carita is also disaffected and does not > hold onto its object, albeit in a profitable way. > - Moha-carita vacillates due to superficiality while vitakka-carita > vacillates due to conjecturing. > > It is important to remember the purpose of these classifications; to > select meditation subjects. As I recall, the texts even go so far as > to recommend the most appropriate type of place for each to meditate > and even the type of food they should eat. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- excelent reminder, Rob!!!! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > This is also one of the few places that Buddhaghosa mentions a > specific source (Upatissa's Vimuttimagga), says that he disagrees and > offers his own position. > > An interesting topic... if you are interested in formal meditation :-) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sometimes I think that a good plunge on chapters 3 and four of Visuddhimagga is the only thing the usual searcher of meditation needs to be free of misconcepts and illusions about these matters!!! Keep Boostin' Pal!!! Mettaya, Ícaro 34331 From: icarofranca Date: Thu Jul 1, 2004 2:16pm Subject: Re: hello Hi Victor! > Hi Gislene, > > Welcome ot DSG. I forgot to mention you, pal!!! Sorry!!! Mettaya, Ícaro 34332 From: Sujjhana Bhinnatta Date: Thu Jul 1, 2004 2:18pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Every Paramattha dhamma can be clearly observed from experience ? Hello Howard, Ken, and Rob, Just more words and ideas to spin about: ===== Howard:> I largely agree with your position on this, Ken. I believe > that our reactions (of craving, aversion, and attachment) are associated > with dhammas that are not conceptually constructed. However, these dhammas > typically are associated with and underlie concepts, but it erroneously *seems* > that it is the pa~n~natti that we react to rather than the underlying dhammas. ===== B: I was initially amused by this conversation. Sounds very similar to the chicken/egg conspiracy. What comes first, the concept or the vedana? What dhammas are involved when I have an aversion to the idea of going to the gym? I'm not actually experiencing the 'going to the gym' so there is no underlying experiential dhammas that I am avoiding other than some mental ideation and memories of painful leg curls. If I had aversion to the dhammas underlying the concepts, then the aversion would have nothing to do with going to the gym, and would rather be like avoiding all smells because I have an aversion to the dhammas behind the smell of feces (forgive the crude illustration). The justification being that the same dhammas involved in smelling -- a flower, for example -- are involved in smelling feces. The point is that taken out of context (or concept), the aversion or attachment has no meaning, and therefore there must be an aversion to the concept rather than the underlying dhammas. ===== Howard:> Buddha said, it is vedana to which we react with tanha and upadana, > and I suspect that most of the time the vedana we react to is vedana > associated with bodily sensation. Even when we fantasize something that results in > craving or aversion, what I suspect happens is that the thinking results > immediately in physical sensations that we find pleasant or unpleasant, and it is > to these pleasant or unpleasant sensations that we then react with craving > or aversion. ===== B: On the other hand, this is true as well. Continuing with the gym analogy, even though I am having aversion to the concept of going to the gym, it is the concept itself that produces vedana that I am reacting to. But wait! Is the concept itself the painful vedana or does the concept produce the painful vedana? By Howard's logic, my thinking of going to the gym produces unpleasant sensations in my body (perhaps my muscles have memory) that I then react to with aversion. But why the need for the middle man (i.e. the body)? Why can't the thinking produce aversion directly? ===== Rob:> The Mulapariyaya Sutta (Mn 1) describes the differences in how the > thoughts of an uninstructed worldling (that's us) progress, as > compared to how the thoughts of a trainee (Sotapanna / Sakadagami / > Anagami) progess, as compared to how the thoughts of an Arahant > progress, as compared to how the thoughts of the Buddha progress. > > In this Sutta, the Buddha explains that the uninstructed worldling > gets off track at the perception stage ("percieves" with > sannavipallasa versus "directy knows"), but that the real problems > occur at the conceptualization stage. B: The most unproblematic translation for sa~n~na I have come across is 'to mark'. When an uninstructed run-of-the-mill person percieves (marks) earth as earth...etc.; versus when a Worthy One, devoid of mental fermentations directly knows earth as earth...etc. Perception is to delineate 'what is' with respect to 'what is not'. To mark a sensation or subset of sensations as 'this' while simultaneously marking the remaining set of sensations as 'not this'. For this is how we come to define and later conceputalize the manifold 'world' of nama and rupa. Once a thing has boundaries/defining points, only then does it truly become a 'thing' and subsequently is thought about, analyzed, fretted over, etc. "Directly knowing earth as earth, he does not conceive things about earth, does not conceive things in earth, does not conceive things coming out of earth, does not conceive earth as 'mine,' does not delight in earth. Why is that? Because he has comprehended it, I tell you." (MN 1) The Arahant, however, in directly knowing earth as earth etc., no longer cares? about what 'is' and 'is not,' for such distinctions are meaningless. This is not to say that there is no discernment of phenomena, just that this discernment does not lead to conceptualization and later papanca. I believe that what was once 'marked' by sa~n~na is now discerned by pa~n~na. The suble difference being that pa~n~na does not discern by grasping or delineating. It is more fluid, adaptive, and dispassionate than sa~n~na which tries to freeze phenomena in order to discriminate the chaos of sense perception. ===== B: Sorry for the convoluted logic here. The point I'm trying to make is that both Howard and Rob are correct. There is an aversion/attachment to things on a conceptual level as well as aversion/attachment to dhammas on the level of feeling. I think the argument is fruitless however, because a concept is a dhamma is a concept. Attacking from different angles does not change the object of attack. Concepts condition feeling just as dhammas condition feeling, and furthermore feeling in turn conditions concepts. Aversion/attachment can arise from either. I think the real problem you are having comes from thinking Paticca-samuppada is a linear system when in reality it is more of a chaotic system with plenty of feedback loops and cross-conditionality. ===== Rob quoting MN18:>"Dependent on eye and forms, eye consciousness arises. The meeting > of the three is contact. With contact as a condition there is feeling." ===== The following is gleened from the translator's introduction to MN 18: **BEGIN**In DN 21 the sequence is as follows: the perceptions & categories of papañca > thinking > desire > dear-&-not-dear > envy & stinginess > rivalry & hostility In Sn IV.11, the map is less linear and can be diagramed like this: perception > the categories of papañca perception > name & form > contact > appealing & unappealing > desire > dear-&-not-dear > stinginess/divisiveness/quarrels/disputes Starting with feeling, the notion of an "agent" -- in this case, the feeler -- acting on "objects," is introduced: What one feels, one perceives (labels in the mind). What one perceives, one thinks about. What one thinks about, one "papañcizes". Through the process of papañca, the agent then becomes a victim of his/her own patterns of thinking: Based on what a person papañcizes, the perceptions & categories of papañca assail him/her with regard to past, present, & future forms cognizable via the eye [as with the remaining senses].**END** ===== B: The important thing to note that is not represented in either Howard's or Rob's interpretation is the part about the introduction of a "feeler" acting on "objects". The significant difference between an uninstructed run-of-the-mill person and an Arahant is this creation of an "agent". Ken:> Avoid it or not, it will not go away: it is involved in every facet > of Dhamma discussion. Every attempt at understanding Dhamma comes > down to anatta and to the question, `Is there someone who is trying > to create understanding or are there only namas and rupas?' B: Ken hits it right on the money here. Though the wording of his question I might change, it does always come down to the truth and realization of Anatta. Hopefully my endless mumblings are coherent to at least one of you. Forgive me once again for butting in. May you all attain perfect wisdom and unrivaled compassion. Bhinnatta --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.708 / Virus Database: 464 - Release Date: 6/18/2004 34333 From: kenhowardau Date: Thu Jul 1, 2004 3:51pm Subject: Re: Some caution and non-advice --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Sujjhana Bhinnatta" wrote: > Hi Rob M, Ken H, and all you other non-selves posting these conceptual > non-truths. (being satirical not mean) All satire and absence of meanness duly noted and appreciated, thank you. I hope I can do as well - diplomacy is not always my strong suit. :-) ------------ > B: What is more skillfull, being able to classify and label all mental states, cittas, cetasikas and rupas, or having one moment of real experience free from greed, aversion, and ignorance? > ------------------- KH: I suppose the latter is more skilful, but a combination of the two would be ideal. ------------------- B: > And don't give me the notion that having experience implies a self because, -------------------- KH: Having experience does not imply a self. `Wanting to have experience;' now that's a different matter. --------------------- B: > from what I have been reading, the selves that have all these different ideas and positions on translation, meaning, definition, order, and theme are very much alive and well in this group. > -------------------- KH: Yes, even our most well read (and published) members admit to being uninstructed worldlings. They say, as Dhamma-students, they are still in kindergarten. -------------------- B: > Claiming anatta and realizing anatta are very different. One requires some reading and conjecture, the other does indeed require the "formal meditation" that we loath so much. > ------------------- KH: I'll be interested in seeing any Tipitaka references to formal meditation, but I don't think there are any. Mind you, we have to agree on the meaning of formal meditation and that could require a lot of discussion. -------------------- B: > I am not disagreeing with Rob's claim about sati. Truly mindfulness is not dependent on vipassana, but I have yet to meet or hear of someone having any real development of sati without regularly practicing some sort of satipatthana. > ------------------- KH: I think you'll find that vipassana is a moment of consciousness in which something ultimately real is experienced by the mental factor, panna (right understanding). It should not be confused with any conventional activity such as formal meditation. Nor does it require formal meditation to bring it about. -------------------- B: > Furthermore, I may be misinterpreting the point, but I do not understand the Ven. Bhikku Bodhi's attempt to show that enlightenment is possible without jnanas. Is samattha really that painful? ------------------- KH: Well, enlightenment is a kind of jhana (a supramundane kind). But it does not require the prior development of jhana. It is true that the Buddha and many of his disciples developed mundane jhana prior to enlightenment but there were good reasons for that, and those reasons do not apply to everyone. ------------------- B: Also, satipatthana meditation does not lead to "dry insight" as Ven. Bodhi claims. --------------------- KH: By the definition of dry insight, satipatthana, in a person who has not developed the mundane jhanas, does lead to dry insight (enlightenment without mundane jhanas). ------------------------- B: > Any degree of developed sati by its very nature has concentration as its co-requisite. ------------------------- KH: Yes, in fact concentration always arises in all types of consciousness, even in unwholesome consciousness. Right concentration co-arises with right mindfulness and with right understanding and the other right mental factors. And, may I add, the suttas tell us that right understanding comes first - in the sense of its being the leader. That is why we study Dhamma - to develop right understanding. In a moment of right understanding, right concentration arises immediately, by conditions. --------------------------- B: In other words, remembering to be mindful of an object over and over and over again, to the point where one has continuous sati, necessitates an equivalent degree of concentration. Again, I'm open to clarification. ----------------- KH: Here, I suspect you are talking about formal meditation - something the Buddha never taught (IMHO). ----------------- B: Forgive my oversimplification. I read these posts with great enthusiasm every day, but sometimes I feel as if they are going in circles. I'm reminded of the Sabba Sutta (SN XXXV.23): "Monks, I will teach you the All. Listen & pay close attention. I will speak." "As you say, lord," the monks responded. The Blessed One said, "What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas. ---------------------- KH: This is possibly my favourite sutta, but I don't like the translation, "intellect and ideas." It suggests that concepts are part of the all, which they are not. "Mind and mental phenomena" is a better translation. ----------------------- <. . . > B: > I'm reminded of this sutta because when we discuss the details of Abidhamma or cittas or cetasikas, we are still working within the confines of this "all." We are so used to the word "all" meaning everything we can think of;the planet; civilization; all the atoms, molecules, and energies of the universe. But let us try and challenge the Buddha. What is there that is outside of the eye & forms, the ear & sounds, the nose & aromas, the tongue & flavors, the body & tactile sensations, and the intellect & ideas? If you say Nibbana, you've already made an error. ---------------------- KH: Nothing we experience (or can experience) is outside the "all." Nibbana, as you say, is within the "all." It is included as one of the mental phenomena (wrongly translated above as "ideas"). -------------- B: > So where is the citta? the rupa? the jnana? the sati? the cetasika? I tell you they are nowhere but in your own mind. They are not "ultimate realities" any more than car, tree, sky, red, green, true, false, up or down are ultimate realities. These are empty words. Reality by its very nature gives us nothing to hang onto. In the present moment there is no room for citta or rupa. That is why we call them citta and rupa. Skillfull means. ------------- KH: Maybe so, Binnatta, but, if (IF) I understand you correctly, you are asserting something that is contrary to the Buddhadhamma as preserved in the Pali Canon. That is the teaching I am most interested in. If you are right, I am in trouble. :-) --------------------------- B: Friends, I am not criticizing the delineation of the paramatta- dhammas or the usefulness of the abidhamma-pitaka or its commentaries. I am criticizing the potential dangers in trying to analyze them conceptually. And make no mistake, these are just concepts. The Buddha knows how easy it is to become lost in the realm of the intellect & ideas. Perhaps the commentator Buddhaghosa had enough time and merit to master both meditation and his scholarly pursuits, we will never know. I am sure, however, that I have neither the time nor the accumulated merit to do the same. Therefore, the best this non-person can do is to sit on a non- cushion and practice not-practicing. ---------------- KH: While you are there, ask yourself (or your non-self); "Could I or could I not practise in this way without having heard the Dhamma?" Before any Tathagata can begin propound his teaching, the thought always occurs to him; "Surely it would be a waste of time to teach this Dhamma, it is too difficult for any worldling to understand." If it is so difficult as to make a Tathagata think that way, you and I cannot begin to imagine how difficult it is. So let's not have any more talk about "Just doing it!" :-) Kind regards, Ken H 34334 From: Herman Hofman Date: Thu Jul 1, 2004 4:08pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: hello Hi Gislene, I think Icaro forgot me as well, maybe because Brazil doesn't change a change in Euro2004, and he knows it :-) HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA Herman -----Original Message----- From: icarofranca [mailto:icarofranca@y...] Sent: Friday, 2 July 2004 7:17 AM To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Subject: [dsg] Re: hello Hi Victor! > Hi Gislene, > > Welcome ot DSG. I forgot to mention you, pal!!! Sorry!!! Mettaya, Ícaro 34335 From: Herman Hofman Date: Thu Jul 1, 2004 4:11pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: hello That was meant to say 'doesn't stand a chance'. I wonder where my head was :-) Herman -----Original Message----- From: Herman Hofman [mailto:hhofman@t...] Sent: Friday, 2 July 2004 9:09 AM To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: hello Hi Gislene, I think Icaro forgot me as well, maybe because Brazil doesn't change a change in Euro2004, and he knows it :-) HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA Herman -----Original Message----- From: icarofranca [mailto:icarofranca@y...] Sent: Friday, 2 July 2004 7:17 AM To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Subject: [dsg] Re: hello Hi Victor! > Hi Gislene, > > Welcome ot DSG. I forgot to mention you, pal!!! Sorry!!! Mettaya, Ícaro 34336 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Thu Jul 1, 2004 4:46pm Subject: Re: Dependent Origination-a representation Hi all, More than a month ago I posted couple messages on the representation of the dependent origination. However, I did not explain the representation in detail. First let me copy the representation as following: ---------- represent being present ========== represent being equivalent to Ignorance Fabrications------Ignorance Consciousness-----Ignorance Nama-Rupa---------Ignorance Six Sense Bases---Ignorance Contact-----------Ignorance Feeling-----------Ignorance Craving===========Fabrications------Ignorance Clinging==========Fabrications------Ignorance Becoming----------Consciousness-----Ignorance Birth-------------Nama-Rupa---------Ignorance Birth-------------Six Sense Bases---Ignorance Aging-------------Contact-----------Ignorance Aging-------------Feeling-----------Ignorance Aging-------------Craving===========Fabrications Aging-------------Clinging==========Fabrications Death-------------Becoming----------Consciousness ------------------Birth-------------Nama-Rupa ------------------Birth-------------Six Sense Bases ------------------Aging-------------Contact ------------------Aging-------------Feeling ------------------Aging-------------Craving ------------------Aging-------------Clinging ------------------Death-------------Becoming ------------------------------------Birth In Samyutta Nikaya XII.2 Paticca-samuppada-vibhanga Sutta Analysis of Dependent Co-arising http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn12-002.html the Buddha taught that "And what is dependent co-arising? From ignorance as a requisite condition come fabrications. From fabrications as a requisite condition comes consciousness. From consciousness as a requisite condition comes name-&-form. From name-&-form as a requisite condition come the six sense media. From the six sense media as a requisite condition comes contact. From contact as a requisite condition comes feeling. From feeling as a requisite condition comes craving. From craving as a requisite condition comes clinging/sustenance. From clinging/sustenance as a requisite condition comes becoming. From becoming as a requisite condition comes birth. From birth as a requisite condition, then aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair come into play. Such is the origination of this entire mass of stress & suffering." There is a linear progression in this conditionality. However, the relation between these requisite conditions are more than conditionality in linear progression. For examples: 1. Name-&-form includes contact and feeling. 2. Craving and clinging/sustenance are fabrications, bodily, verbal, or mental. 3. With fabrications as requisite condition, consciousness becomes established in new becoming after death, whether it is sensual becoming, form becoming. [For the consciousness of an arahant, please refer to the passage * at the end.] 4. In birth there is appearance of aggregates, & acquisition of [sense] media of the various beings in this or that group of beings. The formulation of the dependent origination is like a projection of a helix in three dimensional space onto a plane. However, the projection itself is circular and two dimensional. Metta, Victor * §106. Then the Blessed One went with a large number of monks to the Black Rock on the slope of Isigili. From afar he saw Ven. Vakkali lying dead on a couch. Now at that time a smokiness, a darkness was moving to the east, moved to the west, moved to the north, the south, above, below, moved to the intermediate directions. The Blessed One said, "Monks, do you see that smokiness, that darkness...?" "Yes, Lord." "That is Mara, the Evil One. He is searching for the consciousness of Vakkali the Clansman: 'Where is the consciousness of Vakkali the Clansman established?' But, monks, it is through unestablished consciousness that Vakkali the Clansman has attained total Unbinding." [SN XXII.87] http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/study/aids/examples.html 34337 From: agriosinski Date: Thu Jul 1, 2004 6:37pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Every Paramattha dhamma can be clearly observed from experience ? --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Rob (and Ken) - > > In a message dated 7/1/04 10:14:45 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > rob.moult@j... writes: > > > Hi Howard (and Ken), [...] > ------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > I believe there are multiple feeling stages. The most powerful ones, > and I think this is your sense, and I agree with it, occur as the result of > conceptualizing. But always, reactions of craving and aversion are to vedana > (mediated by sa~n~na). The more powerful vedana resulting from mental > embellishment produces the more powerful reactions. > ------------------------------------------------- Hi Haward, Rob and others, wouldn't be possible that feeling is based only on rupa and conditions of its perception, but egoish reaction to this feeling (kind of sunna -> vedana ->etc) starts from the moment of assuming an ownership of this whole process? the kind of sankhara arising is a personal one, and not really observing, knowledgable one. metta, Agrios 34338 From: Date: Thu Jul 1, 2004 3:56pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Every Paramattha dhamma can be clearly observed from experience ? Hi, Agrios - In a message dated 7/1/04 10:26:47 PM Eastern Daylight Time, agriosinski@y... writes: > > Hi Haward, Rob and others, > > wouldn't be possible that > feeling is based only on rupa and conditions of its perception, > but egoish reaction to this feeling (kind of sunna -> vedana ->etc) > starts from the moment of assuming an ownership of this whole process? > > the kind of sankhara arising is a personal one, and not really observing, > knowledgable one. > > metta, > Agrios > ============================ Feeling is based on contact, but often indirectly so. The contact may be through any sense door. From my own experience, what the feeling is *directly* associated with is physical sensation. What I'm putting forward is that all contact, through whatever door - body, ear, eye, tongue, nose, or mind - produces neutral, pleasant, or unpleasant *bodily sensations*. That is, the vedana produced by contact is indirectly produced by first producing (often subtle) bodily sensations, and these are experienced as neutral, pleasant, or unpleasant. When, for example, we *see* something that we find pleasant, what happens is that visual contact is followed by a mind-door contact with that same visual object that "identifies" it, and that contact produces subtle, pleasant b odily sensations which we associate with the original visual object. This seems to me to be the way the matter proceeds. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 34339 From: Date: Thu Jul 1, 2004 9:25pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Every Paramattha dhamma can be clearly observed from experience ? Howard: "When, for example, we *see* something that we find pleasant, what happens is that visual contact is followed by a mind-door contact with that same visual object that "identifies" it, and that contact produces subtle, pleasant bodily sensations which we associate with the original visual object." Hi Howard, I think abhidhamma would call this consciousness produced rupa. But this seems awfully convoluted to me. We see an image that we like; the liking consciousness produces a pleasant bodily feeling which we also like, plus both liking consciousnesses are accompanied by pleasant mental feeling. Then its gone. Contact is kind of like a magnetic force that brings things together, theoretically. I don't know if we really experience contact. Nina could sort this out better when she gets back. Larry 34340 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Thu Jul 1, 2004 10:30pm Subject: Feelings Hi all, Regarding feelings, here is a discourse in which the Buddha shows that there are one hundred and eight kinds of feelings: Samyutta Nikaya XXXVI.22 Atthasatapariyaya Sutta One Hundred Eight Feelings http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn36-022.html "I shall show you, O monks, a way of Dhamma presentation by which there are one hundred and eight (feelings). Hence listen to me. "In one way, O monks, I have spoken of two kinds of feelings, and in other ways of three, five, six, eighteen, thirty six and one hundred and eight feelings. "What are the two feelings? Bodily and mental feelings. "What are the three feelings? Pleasant, painful and neither-painful- nor-pleasant feelings. "What are the five feelings? The faculties of pleasure, pain, gladness, sadness and equanimity. "What are the six feelings? The feelings born of sense-impression through eye, ear, nose, tongue, body and mind. "What are the eighteen feelings? There are the (above) six feelings by which there is an approach (to the objects) in gladness; and there are six approaches in sadness and there are six approaches in equanimity. "What are the thirty six feelings? There are six feelings of gladness based on the household life and six based on renunciation; six feelings of sadness based on the household life and six based on renunciation; six feelings of equanimity based on the household life and six based on renunciation. "What are the hundred and eight feelings? There are the (above) thirty six feelings of the past; there are thirty six of the future and there are thirty six of the present. "These, O monks, are called the hundred and eight feelings; and this is the way of the Dhamma presentation by which there are one hundred and eight feelings." Metta, Victor 34341 From: rahula_80 Date: Fri Jul 2, 2004 2:37am Subject: Purify one's mind Hi, Dhammapada 183: Not to do evil, to cultivate merit, to purify one's mind .... How to purify one's mind? How to eliminate greed,hatred and delusion? Aren't we born with it? Thanks, Rahula 34342 From: kenhowardau Date: Fri Jul 2, 2004 3:21am Subject: Re: Every Paramattha dhamma can be clearly observed from experience ? Hi Rob M, We were discussing whether citta and cetasika were included among the objects of mind-door consciousness. You wrote: ------------------- > Bhikku Bodhi's Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma (p136) says: Six kinds of objects fall into the category of mental object <. . . > citta in turn can become an object <. . . > The fifty two cetasikas can also become objects of a mind door process, as for example, when one becomes aware of one's feelings, volitions and emotions. Normally, the Abhidhamma is very precise with its use of terms. The one glaring exception is the use of the term "citta". The Abhidhamma uses it both for the paramattha dhamma of consciousness and for the mental state which is a combination of the paramattha dhamma of consciousness and a set of mental factors (paramattha dhammas of cetasikas). <. . . > As I read Bhikkhu Bodhi's text above, I believe that he is talking about mental states as being the object of mind-door processes. I do not interpret his writing as implying that one can be aware of the paramattha dhamma of citta in isolation of the mental state, nor do I interpret his writing as implying that one can be aware of a specific cetasikas in isolation of the paramattha dhammas (citta and cetasikas) that accompany it. > --------------- That clarifies the question nicely, thanks Rob. Could it be answered by consulting the ancient commentaries? Without doing any research myself (as usual) I tend to think K Sujin and her students have already done it and, if I understand them correctly, they are of the opinion that citta and the 52 cetasikas can be experienced at the mind door, one at a time. Doesn't it make sense to you when you think about it? For example, you and I understand, reasonably well, the meaning of greed - how could we have acquired that understanding if citta had never taken lobha as its object? Thanks also for explaining how kamma and the emotions get stronger as the citta-vitis progressively conceptualise sensory data. I am swayed towards your opinion (that they start weak and get stronger) and then back to my opinion (that they start strong and get weaker). Perhaps neither is right: perhaps the level stays constant or it fluctuates unpredictably. I'm not sure how your `falling in love' questionnaire fits into the explanation, but I'll have a go at it: --------- Q: > When you first fell in love (love is as strong an emotion as I can imagine), how much of that love was really love for that person (did you really know them that well???) versus love with the way that you felt (love with the idea of being in love)? And when you fell in love, was it really her eyes, her hair, etc. that prompted those strong feelings? (sorry for getting personal, no need to answer). > --------------- According to my thesis, there was very, very strong lobha for sense objects. Not directly knowing sense objects, my conceptualising mind said; "What is going on here? I must be in love with [name deleted]!" But that was only thinking. [Name deleted] was not ultimately real, and the lobha that experienced her (if I may use that expression) was accordingly weak - I only thought it was strong. --------------------- KH: > > It is just my opinion, but I think that > kamma and the other cetasikas are mainly interested in dhammas and > we only *think* we are interested in concepts (people, places, > situations). > > RM: > Please expand on your opinion. It sounds interesting. I have never learned anything from anybody who agreed with me. ----------------------- OK, it's only a half thought-out opinion but here are two reasons for holding it: 1. The Dhamma repeatedly tells us that desire, aversion and ignorance with regard to the five sense objects (dhammas) and the mind objects (dhammas and concepts) are the cause of suffering. If desire etc., for concepts stood out, head and shoulders above the rest, then we would expect the Dhamma to explain it that way. 2. Kamma results in the experience of sense objects (dhammas). If, as you say, kamma is directed most strongly at concepts, then wouldn't the result of kamma be the experience of concepts, rather than the experience of dhammas? Thanks for bearing with me, Rob. :-) Ken H 34343 From: Herman Hofman Date: Fri Jul 2, 2004 4:35am Subject: RE: [dsg] A rough guide to some jumbled posts intended (2) Hi Sarah, >Can we say that insight leads to the perception that form is inconstant >rather than the other way round? The short answer: Yes we can! :-) If you feel at all inclined, please bounce a yodel off one of the mountain faces for me (without starting an avalanche) :-) Enjoy! Herman Metta, Sarah ====== 34344 From: Herman Hofman Date: Fri Jul 2, 2004 5:29am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Every Paramattha dhamma can be clearly observed from experience ? Hi Rob and everyone, You wrote: The Mulapariyaya Sutta (Mn 1) describes the differences in how the thoughts of an uninstructed worldling (that's us) progress, as compared to how the thoughts of a trainee (Sotapanna / Sakadagami / Anagami) progess, as compared to how the thoughts of an Arahant progress, as compared to how the thoughts of the Buddha progress. In this Sutta, the Buddha explains that the uninstructed worldling gets off track at the perception stage ("percieves" with sannavipallasa versus "directy knows"), but that the real problems occur at the conceptualization stage. WARNING: without a detailed commentary, the Mulapariyaya Sutta seems to make almost no sense. I have a 75-page book on this Sutta written by Bhikkhu Bodhi and it is still very tough reading. ===================================================== The following is part of the translators note (Thanissaro Bhikkhu) to the Mulapariyaya Sutta as found on ATI. "The Buddha taught that clinging to views is one of the four forms of clinging that tie the mind to the processes of suffering. He thus recommended that his followers relinquish their clinging, not only to views in their full-blown form as specific positions, but also in their rudimentary form as the categories & relationships that the mind reads into experience. This is a point he makes in the following discourse, which is apparently his response to a particular school of Brahmanical thought that was developing in his time -- the Samkhya, or classification school." If the above is a correct statement of the Buddha's position and its context, then mindful silence seems an appropriate Buddhist answer to the question as posed in the subject. Studying what X said about what Y said about what Z said about process P is quite a different program to studying P. The Nikayas suggest a steady stream of people attaining ever higher stages of emancipation. I see no such suggestion in the eras of the commentarial tradition and beyond. I make the obvious connection between the above and the fact that the nose immersed in a book is not studying P, it is studying what X said about etc etc. Kind regards Herman Metta, Rob M :-) 34345 From: Date: Fri Jul 2, 2004 3:58am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Every Paramattha dhamma can be clearly observed from experience ? Hi, Larry - In a message dated 7/2/04 12:28:53 AM Eastern Daylight Time, LBIDD@w... writes: > Howard: "When, for example, we *see* something that we find pleasant, > what happens is that visual contact is followed by a mind-door contact > with that same visual object that "identifies" it, and that contact > produces subtle, pleasant bodily sensations which we associate with the > original visual object." > > Hi Howard, > > I think abhidhamma would call this consciousness produced rupa. > ----------------------------------------------- Howard: Okay. ----------------------------------------------- But this> > seems awfully convoluted to me. We see an image that we like; the liking > consciousness produces a pleasant bodily feeling which we also like, > plus both liking consciousnesses are accompanied by pleasant mental > feeling. Then its gone. ------------------------------------------------ Howard: Well, I'm not at all expert on exactly what the Buddha taught and what he did not, but as I understand it, we don't directly "like" a visual object. I think that the vedanic response to a visual object is neutral, and thus there is no "liking response" directly involved at all. I think that the mind must participate first, and depending on that will arise a pleasant bodily sensation (the pleasantness being "liking" in rudimentary form), and then full blown "liking" in the form of tanha arises in response to the sukkha vedana due to the mind having been infected by ignorance. Now whether pleasant or unpleasant feelings arise only with body sense (touch, pains, itches, vibrations, tinglings etc) I'm not sure. There is at least one sutta I recall having seen where the Buddha speaks of the six ayatanas in abbreviated form as mind objects, sights, sounds, and sensations, thus lumping tactile objects, odors, and tastes under the category of "sensation". This lumping together makes good experiential sense to me, with these three being far more similar to each other than to mind objects, sights, or sounds. All three of them do seem to carry a sense of physical sensation, and perhaps it is so that all three of them can directly produce sukkha vedana and dukkha vedana, whereas mind objects, sights, and sounds cannot, but only indirectly so. Whether this is so or not, however, when mind objects, sights, or sounds are experienced and then the mind operates further on them producing sensations, it is not smells or tastes that are produced, except perhaps in memory or imagination - it is a tactile sensation that is produced. If, for example, a person is sexually infatuated with some other person, thinking about her/him won't produce actual odors or flavors, but it may produce memories or fantasies of such as well as touches etc, and all this thinking may produce bodily reactions of a tactile sort, and it is *these* that are directly experienced as sukkha. Thus, it seems to me that what can be *directly* apprehended as pleasant or unpleasant are tactile sensations, and possibly also smells and tastes, and nothing else. But *as the result of mental, visual, or auditory contact*, any resulting pleasantness or unpleasantness will directly pertain only to mind-produced tactile sensation. ---------------------------------------------- > > Contact is kind of like a magnetic force that brings things together, > theoretically. I don't know if we really experience contact. > Nina could sort this out better when she gets back. > > Larry > =========================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 34346 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Fri Jul 2, 2004 9:21am Subject: Re: [dsg] hello Dear Gislene Welcome to the list from me, and thanks for giving us an introduction. --- Gis Lene wrote: > Dear friends. > > My name is Gislene. I am new in this list. > I am brazilian, living in São Paulo and I am very very interested in > learning and practice buddhism. I think it is possible to use these > principles, philosophy and psychology in many areas. So I want to learn > about that and first of all learn and practice that principles in my own > life. > If you know how I can start this here in São Paulo, please, let me know. > Last year I went to some Kadampa, Nyingma meetings. For many reasons I > stopped my learning and I´m back now for others many reasons. One of > theses > reasons is because I realise the similarity between the buddhistic > philosophy and the Hunas philosophy. So, I think it is the time to put > more energy and learn more about both. > I am not sure about the Theravada tradition. Is it the same learning of > the > Kadampa tradition? Is the Lamrin meditation the same in Nyingma and in > the Theravada? I can see that your interests are wide-ranging, as are those of some of our other members here. I think you will find that the teachings of the Buddha cannot be picked up quickly or easily, but I think you'll find this list a good place to learn more about them. Please feel free to ask any questions. Jon 34347 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Fri Jul 2, 2004 9:41am Subject: Re: [dsg] On the topic of Sensation, Pleasure and Pain Dear Nori --- norakat147 wrote: > One of the things I have realized in my practice of self observation > is this: > > Pleasure and Pain is not the result of sensations in-and-of > themselves. > > Pleasure and Pain is the result of a reaction due to ones mentalD > disposition (or mental formation) and bodily disposition (or bodily > formation). > > For example: > > Lets say somebody is out walking in the sunlight. The sensations in- > and-of-themselves from the sun is warmth and other subtle sensations > on the skin; also light from the sun on the eyes/retina. > > These sensations in-and-of-themselves are not pain-suffering or > pleasure. It is only sensation; neutral, with no pain/suffering, no > pleasure. One can, by ones own volition, not think or react and feel > the sensations from the sun in-and-of-itself. > > But now if one were to think, `this sun, it is not good for my skin, > I can develop skin cancer.' And as soon as aversion develops, now one > can begin to feel in his body, in addition to the initial sensations > from the sun itself (i.e. the warmth and tingling sensation on the > skin) a very unpleasant sensation run all throughout his body; pain > and suffering begins. Now this sensation was not caused by the sun > itself. > > But now if one were to think, `this sun, it is good for my skin, I > can develop vitamin D, and benefit from its other effects.' And as > soon as a `liking' develops, now one can begin to feel in his body, > in addition to the initial sensations from the sun itself, a very > pleasant sensation run all throughout his body which scientists might > describe as a release of dopamine in the brain. > > Once again, the Pleasure or Pain is the result of a reaction due to > ones mental disposition (or mental formation) NOT - due to the sun, > or the sensations caused by the sun in-and-of-itself. Even the > sensation of being stabbed in the arm, while being a sharp and > intense sensation, in-and-of-itself, is not pain/suffering. It is > ones reaction in the form of aversion that is suffering. Sarah and I read your post this morning while enjoying the very pleasant feeling of the sun on our backs sitting high in the Swiss alps, with a clear view of the Matterhorn, and in my case a lovely cup of coffe to be enjoyed. There was a lot of pleasant feeling going on ;-)). > Depending on the level of aversion or `liking' one can develop > towards the object, the sensations caused on the body by the object > in-and-of-itself can be, and is in most cases, dwarfed by the > overwhelming sensations created by the reaction due to aversion > or `liking'. As to whether the bodily or the mental feelings predominate, however, I'm not sure we can generalise. But the important thing is to know that both kinds of feeling are occurring throughout the day, and that it's easy (and common, I suspect) to mistake one for the other. Jon 34348 From: Date: Fri Jul 2, 2004 6:02am Subject: Re: [dsg] On the topic of Sensation, Pleasure and Pain Hi, Jon (and Nori) - In a message dated 7/2/04 12:48:26 PM Eastern Daylight Time, jonoabb@y... writes: > >Depending on the level of aversion or `liking' one can develop > >towards the object, the sensations caused on the body by the object > >in-and-of-itself can be, and is in most cases, dwarfed by the > >overwhelming sensations created by the reaction due to aversion > >or `liking'. > > As to whether the bodily or the mental feelings predominate, however, I'm > not sure we can generalise. But the important thing is to know that both > kinds of feeling are occurring throughout the day, and that it's easy (and > common, I suspect) to mistake one for the other. > > ============================ Just to relate this matter to the recent conversation between Larry and me on vedana, I do agree with what you say here, Jon. All contact, mental as well as physical, results in vedana. What I conjecture is that the vedana *directly* resulting from from mental, auditory, and visual contact is always neutral, but in a few steps there can be indirectly generated body-door contact with associated pleasant or unpleasant vedana. Thus, pleasant or unpleasant mind-door, eye-door, and ear-door vedana is actually directly associated with body-door contact resulting from the original mind-door, eye-door, or ear-door contact. Indirectly, however, it is still appropriate to refer to that vedana as mind-door, eye-door, or ear-door, as that was the original point of genesis. I do believe that body-door contact always mediates pleasant and unpleasant vedana. Of course, this belief is not something I'm "invested" in. It just seems right to me. If I'm wrong in this belief, well, so be it! ;-) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 34349 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Fri Jul 2, 2004 10:46am Subject: Re: Purify one's mind Hi Rahula, You might say that we are born with greed, hatred and delusion as though it is impossible to eliminate them. However, the truth is that it is possible to abandon what is unskillful and to develop what is skillful.[1] So how to purify one's mind and to eliminate greed,hatred and delusion? In short, abandon what is unskillful and to develop what is skillful. (Not to do what is unwholesome and to do what is wholesome.) Metta, Victor [1] Anguttara Nikaya II.19 Kusala Sutta Skillful http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an02-019.html --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rahula_80" wrote: > Hi, > > Dhammapada 183: > > Not to do evil, to cultivate merit, to purify one's mind .... > > How to purify one's mind? How to eliminate greed,hatred and delusion? > Aren't we born with it? > > Thanks, > Rahula 34350 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Fri Jul 2, 2004 0:06pm Subject: Re: On the topic of Sensation, Pleasure and Pain Hi Nori and all, Let me first copy this passage from Samyutta Nikaya I.38 Sakalika Sutta The Stone Sliver Translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu. For free distribution only. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn01-038.html I have heard that on one occasion the Blessed One was staying near Rajagaha at the Maddakucchi Deer Reserve. Now at that time his foot had been pierced by a stone sliver. Excruciating were the bodily feelings that developed within him -- painful, fierce, sharp, wracking, repellent, disagreeable -- but he endured them mindful, alert, & unperturbed. Having had his outer robe folded in four and laid out, he lay down on his right side in the lion's posture, with one foot placed on top of the other, mindful & alert. In this discourse, it is said that at one time the Buddha's foot was pierced by a stone sliver, and the bodily feelings that developed within him were excruciating -- painful, fierce, sharp, wracking, repellent, disagreeable. However, the Buddha endured these feelings mindful, alert, & unperturbed. In another discourse, Samyutta Nikaya XXXVI.6 Sallatha Sutta The Arrow http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn36-006.html we have the following passage: The Blessed One said, "When touched with a feeling of pain, the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person sorrows, grieves, & laments, beats his breast, becomes distraught. So he feels two pains, physical & mental. Just as if they were to shoot a man with an arrow and, right afterward, were to shoot him with another one, so that he would feel the pains of two arrows. In the same way, when touched with a feeling of pain, the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person sorrows, grieves, & laments, beats his breast, becomes distraught. So he feels two pains, physical & mental. "As he is touched by that painful feeling, he is resistant. Any resistance-obsession with regard to that painful feeling obsesses him. Touched by that painful feeling, he delights in sensual pleasure. So one could say that when touched with a feeling of pain, the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person reacts; i.e., he is resistant: he sorrows, grieves, & laments, beats his breast, becomes distraught. And thus he feels two pains, physical & mental. On the other hand, "Now, the well-instructed disciple of the noble ones, when touched with a feeling of pain, does not sorrow, grieve, or lament, does not beat his breast or become distraught. So he feels one pain: physical, but not mental. Just as if they were to shoot a man with an arrow and, right afterward, did not shoot him with another one, so that he would feel the pain of only one arrow. In the same way, when touched with a feeling of pain, the well-instructed disciple of the noble ones does not sorrow, grieve, or lament, does not beat his breast or become distraught. He feels one pain: physical, but not mental. "As he is touched by that painful feeling, he is not resistant. No resistance-obsession with regard to that painful feeling obsesses him. Touched by that painful feeling, he does not delight in sensual pleasure. One could say that when touched with a feeling of pain, the well- instructed disciple of the noble ones does not react; i.e., he is not resistant: he does not sorrow, grieve, or lament, does not beat his breast or become distraught. Thus he feels one pain: physical, but not mental. Metta, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "norakat147" wrote: > One of the things I have realized in my practice of self observation > is this: > > Pleasure and Pain is not the result of sensations in-and-of > themselves. > > Pleasure and Pain is the result of a reaction due to ones mental > disposition (or mental formation) and bodily disposition (or bodily > formation). [snip] > Once again, the Pleasure or Pain is the result of a reaction due to > ones mental disposition (or mental formation) NOT - due to the sun, > or the sensations caused by the sun in-and-of-itself. Even the > sensation of being stabbed in the arm, while being a sharp and > intense sensation, in-and-of-itself, is not pain/suffering. It is > ones reaction in the form of aversion that is suffering. > > Depending on the level of aversion or `liking' one can develop > towards the object, the sensations caused on the body by the object > in-and-of-itself can be, and is in most cases, dwarfed by the > overwhelming sensations created by the reaction due to aversion > or `liking'. > > And so one can say in a sense: Ultimately, nothing in this world is > the cause of our suffering, we are the cause of our own suffering. > > > With Metta, > nori 34351 From: Sujjhana Bhinnatta Date: Fri Jul 2, 2004 0:42pm Subject: Re: some caution and non-advice Hi Ken, I'm not completely sure, but it feels like you interpreted my post as an attack on members of this group. It was not intended as such although I admit I could have re-worded some things. While, like you, I have not even begun to learn to crawl on this Dhamma path, I am still quite the dhamma-snob. Forgive me. :-) *********************************************** -------------------- B: > Claiming anatta and realizing anatta are very different. One requires some reading and conjecture, the other does indeed require the "formal meditation" that we loath so much. > ------------------- > KH: I'll be interested in seeing any Tipitaka references to formal > meditation, but I don't think there are any. Mind you, we have to > agree on the meaning of formal meditation and that could require a > lot of discussion. ********************************************* B: Please forgive my ignorance. I had no idea there was any dispute as to the usefulness of meditation as a tool for liberation; nor of Buddha's predilection for it. But please, no discussion is needed. I am not capable of convincing you of the utility of a particular practice, nor can I positively designate a particular activity as qualifying 'meditation' (hence the double quotes around "formal meditation"); although I probably could point out several activities listed in the Tipitaka as conducive to the cultivation of insight. Perhaps that will please you. In all honesty, I cannot fully see the utility in studying the Abhidhamma or the Commentaries nor how such study relates to the ending of suffering. That is why I joined DSG in the first place; to see what others have to say about it. Perhaps we are both limited in our understanding of proper practice. This is why I value this group. So many different propensities and accumulations, and yet there's a skillfull practice for each of us. ********************************************** -------------------- B: > I am not disagreeing with Rob's claim about sati. Truly mindfulness is not dependent on vipassana, but I have yet to meet or hear of someone having any real development of sati without regularly practicing some sort of satipatthana. > ------------------- > KH: I think you'll find that vipassana is a moment of consciousness > in which something ultimately real is experienced by the mental > factor, panna (right understanding). It should not be confused with > any conventional activity such as formal meditation. Nor does it > require formal meditation to bring it about. ***************************************** You are referring to conditional relations in which mental states come about through causes and conditions without any need for the actions of a self. I'm familiar with the model. I guess I'm more interested in experiencing what the model refers to rather than dissecting the very structure and make up of the model. I am so unlearned in this way. Please forgive me. On the other hand, if anyone wanted to see a good example of what happens when we debate, argue, deduce, analyze and systematize the teachings of the Buddha for a thousand years after the man who initially uttered them left this world, they should look at Zen. With its contempt for conceptual rhetoric and direct approach to practice, I wonder what kinds of complex and labyrinthine ideologies Zen practicioners were so fed up with that they felt the need to do away with them altogether. While personally I am not adverse to learning or even utilizing concepts to break free of concepts, I can appreciate the avoidance of fundamentalist pedantry by the Zen school (keep in mind, the mahayana canon is several volumes larger than that of the theravadin schools). I have a great affinnity for early Buddhism and its modern revival in the Kammatthana tradition, but I also admittedly have a fierce disdain for the sophistry I see in some dissemination of doctrine. Things that sound logical, yet when put into practice turn out to be dead ends or even worse, dangerous side routes. This is why my arguments seem to lean in the direction of practice rather than intellection or debate. I admit I have a great deal of opinions about what constitutes skillfull practice. If there indeed is a way to the ending of suffering through studying and recollecting on the terms and categories of the Abhidhamma, I hope by joining DSG, that path will soon become clear to me. **************************************** B: > Furthermore, I may be misinterpreting the point, but I do not understand the Ven. Bhikku Bodhi's attempt to show that enlightenment is possible without jnanas. Is samattha really that painful? > KH: Well, enlightenment is a kind of jhana (a supramundane kind). > But it does not require the prior development of jhana. It is true > that the Buddha and many of his disciples developed mundane jhana > prior to enlightenment but there were good reasons for that, and > those reasons do not apply to everyone. **************************************** B: Again, living in the west has forced me to throw out any statement that begins with the phrase "enlightenment is" out the window. However, I think I see where I made an error. The ending of effluents does indeed require a great deal of concentration, however not necessarily the level of concentration that would qualify as jnana. Thank you again for the clarification. **************************************** B: Also, satipatthana meditation does not lead to "dry insight" as Ven. Bodhi claims. > KH: By the definition of dry insight, satipatthana, in a person who > has not developed the mundane jhanas, does lead to dry insight > (enlightenment without mundane jhanas). B: > Any degree of developed sati by its very nature has concentration as its co-requisite. > KH: Yes, in fact concentration always arises in all types of > consciousness, even in unwholesome consciousness. Right > concentration co-arises with right mindfulness and with right > understanding and the other right mental factors. And, may I add, > the suttas tell us that right understanding comes first - in the > sense of its being the leader. That is why we study Dhamma - to > develop right understanding. In a moment of right understanding, > right concentration arises immediately, by conditions. *************************************************** B: Again, you are refering to concentration as a mental factor. I am talking about concentration conventionally as a developed faculty. I don't believe anyone in this group has realized paramattha dhamma and therefore limit my discussion to conceptual truths. If our vocabulary is out of synch, it is only because I am unfamiliar with the the definitions and terms in the Abhidhamma. Thank you for correcting my understanding. I do have some uneasiness with the translation of panna as right understanding. Sometimes it seems as if it is being used as meaning right knowledge (of doctrine), and I don't think that is correct. The dhamma is not exclusive to intellectuals. Perhaps you could clarify this for me. ****************************************************** > B: In other words, remembering to be mindful of an object over and over and over again, to the point where one has continuous sati, necessitates an equivalent degree of concentration. Again, I'm open to clarification. > KH: Here, I suspect you are talking about formal meditation - > something the Buddha never taught (IMHO). ****************************************************** B: See my response to a previous statement above regarding "formal meditation." Thats not what I was talking about here, but I feel now it deserves some attention. What is your justification for your opinion? Do you just not like the word 'meditation' or do you really believe that the statement "There is the case where a monk -- having gone to the wilderness, to the shade of a tree, or to an empty building -- sits down folding his legs crosswise, holding his body erect and setting mindfulness to the fore" refers to something other than the activity of 'meditation' as the term is commonly understood? This is not an attack, I am just interested in your reasoning. ******************************************************** ----------------- >B: Forgive my oversimplification. I read these posts with great enthusiasm every day, but sometimes I feel as if they are going in circles. I'm reminded of the Sabba Sutta (SN XXXV.23): "Monks, I will teach you the All. Listen & pay close attention. I will speak." "As you say, lord," the monks responded. The Blessed One said, "What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas. ---------------------- > KH: This is possibly my favourite sutta, but I don't like the > translation, "intellect and ideas." It suggests that concepts are > part of the all, which they are not. "Mind and mental phenomena" is > a better translation. ***************************************************** B: By saying concepts are not part of the all you are attempting to posit an other. All is all and any other is included in the all. I'm sure you are refering to some commentary or sutta that defines conceptual thinking as a mental state/factor/illusion that is separate from the senses and therefore not part of the all as defined above. That, IMHO, is missing the point. ******************************************************* ----------------------- <. . . > B: > I'm reminded of this sutta because when we discuss the details of Abidhamma or cittas or cetasikas, we are still working within the confines of this "all." We are so used to the word "all" meaning everything we can think of;the planet; civilization; all the atoms, molecules, and energies of the universe. But let us try and challenge the Buddha. What is there that is outside of the eye & forms, the ear & sounds, the nose & aromas, the tongue & flavors, the body & tactile sensations, and the intellect & ideas? If you say Nibbana, you've already made an error. ---------------------- > KH: Nothing we experience (or can experience) is outside the "all." > Nibbana, as you say, is within the "all." It is included as one of > the mental phenomena (wrongly translated above as "ideas"). ************************************************************ B: You misread me. Nibbana, being unconditioned, is not within the realm of experience, although the idea of it is an experience subject to the laws of conditionality. If what you say is how it is elucidated in the Abhidhamma, I must respectfully disagree with the Abhidhamma. ************************************************************ -------------- B: > So where is the citta? the rupa? the jnana? the sati? the cetasika? I tell you they are nowhere but in your own mind. They are not "ultimate realities" any more than car, tree, sky, red, green, true, false, up or down are ultimate realities. These are empty words. Reality by its very nature gives us nothing to hang onto. In the present moment there is no room for citta or rupa. That is why we call them citta and rupa. Skillfull means. ------------- > KH: Maybe so, Binnatta, but, if (IF) I understand you correctly, you > are asserting something that is contrary to the Buddhadhamma as > preserved in the Pali Canon. That is the teaching I am most > interested in. If you are right, I am in trouble. :-) *********************************************************** "There is the case where the man, having crossed over, would think, 'How useful this raft has been to me! For it was in dependence on this raft that, making an effort with my hands & feet, I have crossed over to safety on the further shore. Why don't I, having dragged it on dry land or sinking it in the water, go wherever I like?' In doing this, he would be doing what should be done with the raft. In the same way, monks, I have taught the Dhamma compared to a raft, for the purpose of crossing over, not for the purpose of holding onto. Understanding the Dhamma as taught compared to a raft, you should let go even of Dhammas, to say nothing of non-Dhammas." - MN 22 ************************************************************** --------------------------- > B: Friends, I am not criticizing the delineation of the paramatta- dhammas or the usefulness of the abidhamma-pitaka or its commentaries. I am criticizing the potential dangers in trying to analyze them conceptually. And make no mistake, these are just concepts. The Buddha knows how easy it is to become lost in the realm of the intellect & ideas. Perhaps the commentator Buddhaghosa had enough time and merit to master both meditation and his scholarly pursuits, we will never know. I am sure, however, that I have neither the time nor the accumulated merit to do the same. Therefore, the best this non-person can do is to sit on a non- cushion and practice not-practicing. ---------------- KH: While you are there, ask yourself (or your non-self); "Could I or could I not practise in this way without having heard the Dhamma?" ******************************************************* B: We are treading on dangerous ground here. This could lead into a whole conversation about whether what is contained in the present Tipitaka and commentaries is the same Dhamma referred to by the Buddha in those very texts. If it is not, then my answer to your question is an enthusiastic yes because the Dhamma is not dependent on the written word. If it is the same, then absolutely could I not have found practice without it. But please, lets not go there. *********************************************************** > Ken: Before any Tathagata can begin propound his teaching, the thought > always occurs to him; "Surely it would be a waste of time to teach > this Dhamma, it is too difficult for any worldling to understand." > If it is so difficult as to make a Tathagata think that way, you and > I cannot begin to imagine how difficult it is. So let's not have any > more talk about "Just doing it!" :-) ************************************************************** B: Indeed, talk of doing it is not really doing it. May you be free from trouble, and happy beyond comprehension. Bhinnatta 34352 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Fri Jul 2, 2004 1:19pm Subject: Kamma Sutta Udana III.1 Kamma Sutta Action Translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu. For free distribution only. Read an alternate translation by John D. Ireland --------------------------------------------------------------------- ----------- I have heard that on one occasion the Blessed One was staying near Savatthi, in Jeta's Grove, Anathapindika's monastery. Now at that time a certain monk was sitting not far from the Blessed One, his legs crossed, his body held erect, enduring sharp, piercing, racking pains that were the result of old kamma -- mindful, alert, without suffering. The Blessed One saw him sitting not far away, his legs crossed, his body held erect, enduring sharp, piercing, racking pains that were the result of old kamma -- mindful, alert, without suffering. Then, on realizing the significance of that, the Blessed One on that occasion exclaimed: For the monk who has left all kamma behind, shaking off the dust of the past, steady, without longing, Such*: there's no point in telling anyone else. (*tadi) --------------------------------------------------------------------- ----------- Revised: Sun 19-Oct-2003 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/khuddaka/udana/ud3-01.html 34353 From: Herman Hofman Date: Fri Jul 2, 2004 4:47pm Subject: Paramatthaka Sutta Hi everyone, This is what the Buddha had to say about paramattha anythings. "A person who associates himself with certain views, considering them as best and making them supreme in the world, he says, because of that, that all other views are inferior; therefore he is not free from contention (with others). In what is seen, heard, cognized and in ritual observances performed, he sees a profit for himself. Just by laying hold of that view he regards every other view as worthless. Those skilled (in judgment)[1] say that (a view becomes) a bond if, relying on it, one regards everything else as inferior. Therefore a bhikkhu should not depend on what is seen, heard or cognized, nor upon ritual observances. He should not present himself as equal to, nor imagine himself to be inferior, nor better than, another. Abandoning (the views) he had (previously) held and not taking up (another), he does not seek a support even in knowledge. Among those who dispute he is certainly not one to take sides. He does not [have] recourse to a view at all. In whom there is no inclination to either extreme, for becoming or non-becoming, here or in another existence, for him there does not exist a fixed viewpoint on investigating the doctrines assumed (by others). Concerning the seen, the heard and the cognized he does not form the least notion. That brahmana[2] who does not grasp at a view, with what could he be identified in the world? "They do not speculate nor pursue (any notion); doctrines are not accepted by them. A (true) brahmana is beyond, does not fall back on views." -- vv. 796-803 taken from http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/khuddaka/suttanipata/snp4-05a .html Savour the flavour Herman 34354 From: Philip Date: Fri Jul 2, 2004 5:11pm Subject: Re: some caution and non-advice H Bhinnattha, and all. You bring up a lot of good points Binnattha. Only time for a couple of quick comments. B: > If there > indeed is a way to the ending of suffering through studying and recollecting > on the terms and categories of the Abhidhamma, I hope by joining DSG, that > path will soon become clear to me. Ph: Studying the terms is just the tip of the iceberg. What happens on this message board is just the tip of the iceberg. The real practice is in daily life. Since we are not able to look into the minds of our friends here as they go through daily life, there is no way to know to what degree their study and the discussion here is bearing fruit in insight in daily life. We shouldn't mistake the tip of the iceberg for what lies beneath. So if the value of Abdhidhamma becomes clear to us, it won't be here at DSG it will be by examining realities in our daily life. We shouldn't look for an understanding of the value of Abdhidhamma though other people's messages here. That having been said, I'll go ahead and say why this beginner thinks Abdhidhamma is important. Personally, it seems clear to me at this point - thought it's early - that understanding the mind and making progress towards the liberation from suffering without the Abhidhamma would be like trying to be a surgeon without having an anatomy textbook. Reading suttas would be like reading case studies. They contain references to anatomy, of course, but without a fundamental knowledge of the anatomy, the references to anatomy in patients' case studies would not be of much use and might lead to malpractice. Meditating without a knowledge of Abdhidhamma would seem like a surgeon just going on in and seeing what happens, with an even greater probability of malpractice. I'm sure we all know how many beginning meditators go merrily down the wrong path - not that I'm intending to put you in that boat. I'm referring to the way I started meditation last year without any knowledge of nama and rupa. I was just playing with calmness. I want to know about Abhidhamma before I begin serious study of suttas or meditation because it seems to me that it contains the detailed description of the mind (the anatomy, if you will) that we will need to heal it and gain liberation. That seems very clear to me, but, as I said, it's still early. Metta, Phil 34355 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Fri Jul 2, 2004 5:20pm Subject: Re: Paramatthaka Sutta Hi Herman and all, I think this discourse is a relevant reminder for abandoning the view of paramattha dhamma, namely: This is ultimate, that is just a concept/paññatti. Metta, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Herman Hofman" wrote: > Hi everyone, > > This is what the Buddha had to say about paramattha anythings. > > "A person who associates himself with certain views, considering them as > best and making them supreme in the world, he says, because of that, > that all other views are inferior; therefore he is not free from > contention (with others). In what is seen, heard, cognized and in ritual > observances performed, he sees a profit for himself. Just by laying hold > of that view he regards every other view as worthless. Those skilled (in > judgment)[1] say that (a view becomes) a bond if, relying on it, one > regards everything else as inferior. Therefore a bhikkhu should not > depend on what is seen, heard or cognized, nor upon ritual observances. > He should not present himself as equal to, nor imagine himself to be > inferior, nor better than, another. Abandoning (the views) he had > (previously) held and not taking up (another), he does not seek a > support even in knowledge. Among those who dispute he is certainly not > one to take sides. He does not [have] recourse to a view at all. In whom > there is no inclination to either extreme, for becoming or non- becoming, > here or in another existence, for him there does not exist a fixed > viewpoint on investigating the doctrines assumed (by others). Concerning > the seen, the heard and the cognized he does not form the least notion. > That brahmana[2] who does not grasp at a view, with what could he be > identified in the world? > > "They do not speculate nor pursue (any notion); doctrines are not > accepted by them. A (true) brahmana is beyond, does not fall back on > views." > > -- vv. 796-803 > > taken from > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/khuddaka/suttanipata/snp4- 05a > .html > > > Savour the flavour > > > Herman 34356 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Fri Jul 2, 2004 6:02pm Subject: Re: some caution and non-advice Hi Phil and all, What is it that the Buddha taught? Is what the Buddha taught about the detailed description of the mind? Metta, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Philip" wrote: > > H Bhinnattha, and all. > > You bring up a lot of good points Binnattha. Only time for a couple > of quick comments. > > B: > If there > > indeed is a way to the ending of suffering through studying and > recollecting > > on the terms and categories of the Abhidhamma, I hope by joining > DSG, that > > path will soon become clear to me. > > Ph: Studying the terms is just the tip of the iceberg. What happens > on this message board is just the tip of the iceberg. The real > practice is in daily life. Since we are not able to look into the > minds of our friends here as they go through daily life, there is no > way to know to what degree their study and the discussion here is > bearing fruit in insight in daily life. We shouldn't mistake the tip > of the iceberg for what lies beneath. So if the value of Abdhidhamma > becomes clear to us, it won't be here at DSG it will be by examining > realities in our daily life. We shouldn't look for an understanding > of the value of Abdhidhamma though other people's messages here. > > That having been said, I'll go ahead and say why this beginner > thinks Abdhidhamma is important. > > Personally, it seems clear to me at this point - thought it's > early - that understanding the mind and making progress towards the > liberation from suffering without the Abhidhamma would be like trying > to be a surgeon without having an anatomy textbook. Reading suttas > would be like reading case studies. They contain references to > anatomy, of course, but without a fundamental knowledge of the > anatomy, the references to anatomy in patients' case studies would > not be of much use and might lead to malpractice. Meditating without > a knowledge of Abdhidhamma would seem like a surgeon just going on in > and seeing what happens, with an even greater probability of > malpractice. I'm sure we all know how many beginning meditators go > merrily down the wrong path - not that I'm intending to put you in > that boat. I'm referring to the way I started meditation last year > without any knowledge of nama and rupa. I was just playing with > calmness. > > I want to know about Abhidhamma before I begin serious study of > suttas or meditation because it seems to me that it contains the > detailed description of the mind (the anatomy, if you will) that we > will need to heal it and gain liberation. That seems very clear to > me, but, as I said, it's still early. > > Metta, > Phil 34357 From: gazita2002 Date: Fri Jul 2, 2004 7:01pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Every Paramattha dhamma can be clearly observed from experience ? Dear Nina, I don't have a computor at home anymore, it crashed and now I use the internet cafe, so have been listening to tapes more than reading and I find them very helpful. Thank you again for all your hard work at the 'Dhamma Desk'. Something I read in this reply you made to Rob M and Tzung Kuen, was a condition for me to think about patience. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > Dear Rob M and Tzung Kuen, > op 29-06-2004 04:33 schreef robmoult op rob.moult@j...:> > > The bhavanga citta is not a paramattha dhamma. ......snip....... We should not have any expectations, it all depends on the > accumulated pañña what will be known. It does not matter. As Acharn Sujin would say 'don't go away from the present moment', and I feel it takes a great deal of patience to 'accept' this present moment. So often we are thinking ahead, thinking behind, the sea of concepts. Of course, we can be aware of thinking as just another reality, if conditions are right. > , reflection on realities is a kind of meditation, > reflection on a sutta is meditation. This is fine. When I write an intro to > Vis. this is a kind of meditation. But I would not set a certain time or > limit the time to be aware of any dhamma appearing in daily life. this is a type of wrong view, is it not? if we think we can set aside time to be aware. They are > everywhere, not just in a special place or at a certain time. Hardness here, > hardness there, just the same. They appear naturally, just as they are. But > people are afraid to be distracted in daily life. I think we forget that distraction is real, often its just bad feeling and that's what we want to get away from - well, in my case anyway. I would say: do not worry, > you will see for yourself what happens when you do not restrict awareness, > but just let sati arise because of its own conditions, in its own time. > And to know each citta, cetasika, rupa, of past, present, future: we are not > the Buddha. If someone believes he can it may be only thinking. Who can > tell? But we should not say it is impossible to know heartbase or > bhavangacitta. They are realities, and it depends on a person's accumulated > pañña what can be realized. > Nina. > P.S. I cannot continue this interesting thread now, going away tomorrow for > four days. Thus, next week. Have a nice time away Nina. Don't go falling in any rivers or anything like that:) Greetings to Lodewijk. Patience, courage and good cheer. Azita 34358 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sat Jul 3, 2004 0:04am Subject: Re: some caution and non-advice Hello Victor, Phil, all, The Buddha taught Suffering (Dukkha), the Arising of Suffering (Samudaya), the Cessation of Suffering (Nirodha) and the Way leading to the Cessation of Suffering (Magga). He also taught in the very first verse of the Dhammapada: "Mind is the forerunner of (all evil) states. Mind is chief; mind- made are they. If one speaks or acts with wicked mind, because of that, suffering follows one, even as the wheel follows the hoof of the draught-ox." So, yes, the Blessed One taught us to study and try to understand just what this mind is. Otherwise there is a risk that we will take the consciousness as Self or the Self as something that stands behind consciousness, and miss the truth of Anatta. Here is one sutta where He indicated it was important to study the mind (mano, citta, vinnana). "In the Book of Causation (Nidaanavagga) VII The Great Subchapter 61 (1) Uninstructed (1) p. 595 Samyutta Nikaya Vol 1 (Bodhi) "Thus have I heard. On one occasion the Blessed One was dwelling at Saavatthii in Jeta's Grove, Anaathapindika's Park .... "Bhikkhus, the uninstructed worldling might experience revulsion towards this body composed of the four great elements; he might become dispassionate towards it and be liberated from it. For what reason? Because growth and decline is seen in this body composed of the four great elements, it is seen being taken up and laid aside. Therefore the uninstructed worldling might experience revulsion towards this body composed of the four great elements; he might become dispassionate towards it and be liberated from it. "But, bhikkhus, as to that which is called 'mind' and 'mentality' and 'consciousness' - the uninstructed worldling is unable to experience revulsion towards it, unable to become dispassionate towards it and be liberated from it. For what reason? Because for a long time this has been held to by him, appropriated, and grasped thus: 'This is mine, this I am, this is my self.' Therefore the uninstructed worldling is unable to experience revulsion towards it, unable to become dispassionate towards it and be liberated from it. "It would be better, bhikkhus, for the uninstructed worldling to take as self this body composed of the four great elements rather than the mind. For what reason? Because this body composed of the four great elements is seen standing for one year, for two years, for three, four, five, or ten years, for twenty, thirty, forty, or fifty years, for a hundred years, or even longer. But that which is called 'mind' and 'mentality' and consciousness' arises as one thing and ceases as another by day and by night. Just as a monkey roaming through a forest grabs hold of one branch, lets that go and grabs another, then lets that go and grabs still another, so too that which is called 'mind' and 'mentality' and 'consciousness' arises as one thing and ceases as another by day and by night. [note 157] "Therein, bhikkhus, the instructed noble disciple attends closely and carefully to dependent origination itself thus: 'When this exists, that comes to be; with the arising of this, that arises. When this does not exist, that does not come to be; with the cessation of this, that ceases. That is, with ignorance as condition, volitional formations [come to be]; with volitional formations as condition, consciousness .... Such is the origin of this whole mass of suffering. But with the remainderless fading away and cessation of ignorance comes cessation of volitional formations; with the cessation of volitional formations, cessation of consciousness .... Such is the cessation of this whole mass of suffering. "Seeing thus, bhikkhus, the instructed noble disciple experiences revulsion towards form, revulsion towards feeling, revulsion towards perception, revulsion towards volitional formations, revulsion towards consciousness. Experiencing revulsion, he becomes dispassionate. Through dispassion [his mind] is liberated. When it is liberated there comes the knowledge: "It's liberated.' He understands: 'Destroyed is birth, the holy life has been lived, what had to be done has been done, there is no more for this state of being.'" [note 157: Spk: 'By day and by night (rattiyaa ca divasassa ca): This is a genitive in the locative sense, i.e., during the night and during the day. Arises as one thing and ceases as another (annadeva uppajjati, anna.m nirujjhati): The meaning is that (the mind) that arises and ceases during the day is other than (the mind) that arises and ceases during the night. The statement should not be taken to mean that one thing arises and some thing altogether different, which had not arisen, ceases. "Day and night" is said by way of continuity, taking a continuity of lesser duration than the previous one (i.e. the one stated for the body). But one citta is not able to endure for a whole day or a whole night. Even in the time of a fingersnap many hundred thousand kotis of cittas arise and cease (1 koti=10 million). The simile of the monkey should be understood thus: The "grove of objects" is like the forest grove. The mind arising in the grove of objects is like the monkey wandering in the forest grove. The mind's taking hold of an object is like the monkey grabbing hold of a branch. Just as the monkey, roaming through the forest, leaves behind one branch and grabs hold of another, so the mind, roaming through the grove of objects, arises sometimes grasping hold of a visible object, sometimes a sound, sometimes the past, sometimes the present or future, sometimes an internal object, sometimes an external object. When the monkey does not find a (new) branch it does not descend and sit on the ground, but sits holding to a single leafy branch. So too, when the mind is roaming through the grove of objects, it cannot be said that it arises without holding to an object; rather it arises holding to an object of a single kind. It should be noted that neither the sutta nor the commentary interprets the monkey simile here as saying that the untrained mind is as restless as a monkey; the point, rather, is that the mind is always dependent on an object.] Lovely to see you posting again Victor - missed you. :-) metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "yu_zhonghao" wrote: > Hi Phil and all, > > What is it that the Buddha taught? Is what the Buddha taught about > the detailed description of the mind? > > Metta, > Victor > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Philip" 34359 From: nori Date: Sat Jul 3, 2004 0:30am Subject: Re: Purify one's mind Hi Rahula, I don't know if we are 'born' with greed and hatred, but it certainly seems that we are (speaking for myself at least) destined later in life to have within us these qualities. I think the best way to purify ones mind is to observe in yourself how greed, hatred and delusion causes you suffering, and you will naturally begin to do what feels right for yourself, which is not to have greed and hatred. It is in ignorance that we continue to have greed and hatred, causing ourselves pain, since we know no better. The more we experience the causes and effects of greed and hatred within ourselves, the more we dispell our ignorance. metta, nori --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rahula_80" wrote: > Hi, > > Dhammapada 183: > > Not to do evil, to cultivate merit, to purify one's mind .... > > How to purify one's mind? How to eliminate greed,hatred and delusion? > Aren't we born with it? > > Thanks, > Rahula 34360 From: nori Date: Sat Jul 3, 2004 2:02am Subject: On Right Livelihood; Then and Now; a point that can be easily overlooked Hi all, It is obvious from reading the details `of mere morality' in the Brahma-gala Sutta, in Digha Nikaya that many of the modes of livelihood mentioned were written, not as a general guide or rule for all ages, but addressing, specifically, the many wrong means of livelihood that were prevalent at the time. For example, some wrong means of livelihood mentioned: 21-14 `Sacrificing by spewing mustard seeds, &c., into the fire out of ones's mouth.' 21-15 `Drawing blood out of one's right knee as a sacrifice to the gods.' I could imagine somebody reading this list and saying to his/herself: `well let's see, I don't do that, that and that for a living so my livelihood must be OK.' Or I could imagine other people going further from these specific occupations, and making general rules such as: `well I am not in an occupation that deals with the killing of animals, etc. so my livelihood must be OK.' Now, the following, is, of course, only my opinion, but in this modern world of mega-corporations run by board members, there are wrong means of livelihood that can be easily overlooked. I think in general, working for any company that is run by those who are greedy, dishonest, hateful, or create suffering for the world is a bad livelihood. Working for them, you are participating in accomplishing their agenda. The dire consequence for participating in such a company is that you have to work and be in their presence, those that are un-beloved. Arrrrrgggggghhhhh !! Those that run the company set the atmosphere of it; their greed, dishonesty, hate, or general disregard for society trickles down from the controlling board members, to managers, to lower managers, and to peers. It spreads like a plague. There is much downside for being in the presence of those that are un-beloved: You suffer from their presence; they encourage unskillful behavior, they mock skillful behavior; you live battling their influence, you live in the 'field' of their kamma, in the presence of their sorrows. with metta, nori 34361 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sat Jul 3, 2004 2:10am Subject: Re: Paramatthaka Sutta Hello Herman, Victor, all, Do you think it is possible that you are confusing two similar words? When we are speaking of Ultimate Realities the Pali word is: paramattha : [m.] the highest ideal; truth in the ultimate sense. I think the word in the title of this sutta - the Paramatthaka Sutta - comes from paraamattha (pp. of paraamasati) which means touched; held on to; was attached; caressed. Reading the sutta in both translations by Thanissaro Bhikkhu, and by John Ireland, I think it is refering to clinging to views - not, I think, in any way to ultimate realities. metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "yu_zhonghao" wrote: > Hi Herman and all, > > I think this discourse is a relevant reminder for abandoning the > view of paramattha dhamma, namely: This is ultimate, that is just a > concept/paññatti. > > Metta, > Victor > > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Herman Hofman" > wrote: > > Hi everyone, > > > > This is what the Buddha had to say about paramattha anythings. > > > > "A person who associates himself with certain views, considering > them as > > best and making them supreme in the world, he says, because of > that, > > that all other views are inferior; therefore he is not free from > > contention (with others). In what is seen, heard, cognized and in > ritual > > observances performed, he sees a profit for himself. Just by > laying hold > > of that view he regards every other view as worthless. Those > skilled (in > > judgment)[1] say that (a view becomes) a bond if, relying on it, > one > > regards everything else as inferior. Therefore a bhikkhu should not > > depend on what is seen, heard or cognized, nor upon ritual > observances. > > He should not present himself as equal to, nor imagine himself to > be > > inferior, nor better than, another. Abandoning (the views) he had > > (previously) held and not taking up (another), he does not seek a > > support even in knowledge. Among those who dispute he is certainly > not > > one to take sides. He does not [have] recourse to a view at all. > In whom > > there is no inclination to either extreme, for becoming or non- > becoming, > > here or in another existence, for him there does not exist a fixed > > viewpoint on investigating the doctrines assumed (by others). > Concerning > > the seen, the heard and the cognized he does not form the least > notion. > > That brahmana[2] who does not grasp at a view, with what could he > be > > identified in the world? > > > > "They do not speculate nor pursue (any notion); doctrines are not > > accepted by them. A (true) brahmana is beyond, does not fall back > on > > views." > > > > -- vv. 796-803 > > > > taken from > > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/khuddaka/suttanipata/snp4- > 05a > > .html > > > > > > Savour the flavour > > > > > > Herman 34362 From: Philip Date: Sat Jul 3, 2004 3:16am Subject: Re: some caution and non-advice Hi Victor, and all > What is it that the Buddha taught? Is what the Buddha taught about > the detailed description of the mind? Ph: The Buddha taught a way to liberation. And a very explicit one, it seems to this beginner. One of the three division of the Buddha's teaching is the Abhidhamma which from the little I understand can be described as a detailed description of not only mind but matter as well. It seems logical to me to begin by understanding as thoroughly as possible the nature of mind and matter before learning the practices that lead to liberation. Just like I would want to be familiar with all the parts of an engine before I started to repair it. I know this is a simplistic way of looking at things, but unless I have completely misunderstood what Abhidhamma is about (quite possible!) it seems a sensible way to go about Dhamma study. Metta, Phil --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "yu_zhonghao" wrote: > Hi Phil and all, > > What is it that the Buddha taught? Is what the Buddha taught about > the detailed description of the mind? > > Metta, > Victor > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Philip" wrote: > > > > H Bhinnattha, and all. > > > > You bring up a lot of good points Binnattha. Only time for a > couple > > of quick comments. > > > > B: > If there > > > indeed is a way to the ending of suffering through studying and > > recollecting > > > on the terms and categories of the Abhidhamma, I hope by joining > > DSG, that > > > path will soon become clear to me. > > > > Ph: Studying the terms is just the tip of the iceberg. What > happens > > on this message board is just the tip of the iceberg. The real > > practice is in daily life. Since we are not able to look into the > > minds of our friends here as they go through daily life, there is > no > > way to know to what degree their study and the discussion here is > > bearing fruit in insight in daily life. We shouldn't mistake the > tip > > of the iceberg for what lies beneath. So if the value of > Abdhidhamma > > becomes clear to us, it won't be here at DSG it will be by > examining > > realities in our daily life. We shouldn't look for an > understanding > > of the value of Abdhidhamma though other people's messages here. > > > > That having been said, I'll go ahead and say why this beginner > > thinks Abdhidhamma is important. > > > > Personally, it seems clear to me at this point - thought it's > > early - that understanding the mind and making progress towards > the > > liberation from suffering without the Abhidhamma would be like > trying > > to be a surgeon without having an anatomy textbook. Reading suttas > > would be like reading case studies. They contain references to > > anatomy, of course, but without a fundamental knowledge of the > > anatomy, the references to anatomy in patients' case studies > would > > not be of much use and might lead to malpractice. Meditating > without > > a knowledge of Abdhidhamma would seem like a surgeon just going on > in > > and seeing what happens, with an even greater probability of > > malpractice. I'm sure we all know how many beginning meditators go > > merrily down the wrong path - not that I'm intending to put you in > > that boat. I'm referring to the way I started meditation last year > > without any knowledge of nama and rupa. I was just playing with > > calmness. > > > > I want to know about Abhidhamma before I begin serious study of > > suttas or meditation because it seems to me that it contains the > > detailed description of the mind (the anatomy, if you will) that > we > > will need to heal it and gain liberation. That seems very clear to > > me, but, as I said, it's still early. > > > > Metta, > > Phil 34363 From: Herman Hofman Date: Sat Jul 3, 2004 3:31am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Paramatthaka Sutta Hi Christine, I defer to your superior knowledge of Pali :-) I thought I was on the right track because of the notion of the clung-to view being a supreme view. Oh well, another idea bites the dust :-) Catch you later Herman -----Original Message----- From: christine_forsyth [mailto:cforsyth@v...] Sent: Saturday, 3 July 2004 7:10 PM To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Subject: [dsg] Re: Paramatthaka Sutta Hello Herman, Victor, all, Do you think it is possible that you are confusing two similar words? When we are speaking of Ultimate Realities the Pali word is: paramattha : [m.] the highest ideal; truth in the ultimate sense. I think the word in the title of this sutta - the Paramatthaka Sutta - comes from paraamattha (pp. of paraamasati) which means touched; held on to; was attached; caressed. Reading the sutta in both translations by Thanissaro Bhikkhu, and by John Ireland, I think it is refering to clinging to views - not, I think, in any way to ultimate realities. metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "yu_zhonghao" wrote: > Hi Herman and all, > > I think this discourse is a relevant reminder for abandoning the > view of paramattha dhamma, namely: This is ultimate, that is just a > concept/paññatti. > > Metta, > Victor > > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Herman Hofman" > wrote: > > Hi everyone, > > > > This is what the Buddha had to say about paramattha anythings. > > > > "A person who associates himself with certain views, considering > them as > > best and making them supreme in the world, he says, because of > that, > > that all other views are inferior; therefore he is not free from > > contention (with others). In what is seen, heard, cognized and in > ritual > > observances performed, he sees a profit for himself. Just by > laying hold > > of that view he regards every other view as worthless. Those > skilled (in > > judgment)[1] say that (a view becomes) a bond if, relying on it, > one > > regards everything else as inferior. Therefore a bhikkhu should not > > depend on what is seen, heard or cognized, nor upon ritual > observances. > > He should not present himself as equal to, nor imagine himself to > be > > inferior, nor better than, another. Abandoning (the views) he had > > (previously) held and not taking up (another), he does not seek a > > support even in knowledge. Among those who dispute he is certainly > not > > one to take sides. He does not [have] recourse to a view at all. > In whom > > there is no inclination to either extreme, for becoming or non- > becoming, > > here or in another existence, for him there does not exist a fixed > > viewpoint on investigating the doctrines assumed (by others). > Concerning > > the seen, the heard and the cognized he does not form the least > notion. > > That brahmana[2] who does not grasp at a view, with what could he > be > > identified in the world? > > > > "They do not speculate nor pursue (any notion); doctrines are not > > accepted by them. A (true) brahmana is beyond, does not fall back > on > > views." > > > > -- vv. 796-803 > > > > taken from > > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/khuddaka/suttanipata/snp4- > 05a > > .html > > > > > > Savour the flavour > > > > > > Herman 34364 From: Herman Hofman Date: Sat Jul 3, 2004 3:43am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: some caution and non-advice Hi Phil, Would you say that it is sensible to get to know everything about tobacco, about human physiology, about cigarette manufacturers and their brands before one attempts to give up smoking? Catch you later Herman -----Original Message----- From: Philip [mailto:plnao@j...] Sent: Saturday, 3 July 2004 8:16 PM To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Subject: [dsg] Re: some caution and non-advice Hi Victor, and all > What is it that the Buddha taught? Is what the Buddha taught about > the detailed description of the mind? Ph: The Buddha taught a way to liberation. And a very explicit one, it seems to this beginner. One of the three division of the Buddha's teaching is the Abhidhamma which from the little I understand can be described as a detailed description of not only mind but matter as well. It seems logical to me to begin by understanding as thoroughly as possible the nature of mind and matter before learning the practices that lead to liberation. Just like I would want to be familiar with all the parts of an engine before I started to repair it. I know this is a simplistic way of looking at things, but unless I have completely misunderstood what Abhidhamma is about (quite possible!) it seems a sensible way to go about Dhamma study. Metta, Phil --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "yu_zhonghao" wrote: > Hi Phil and all, > > What is it that the Buddha taught? Is what the Buddha taught about > the detailed description of the mind? > > Metta, > Victor > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Philip" wrote: > > > > H Bhinnattha, and all. > > > > You bring up a lot of good points Binnattha. Only time for a > couple > > of quick comments. > > > > B: > If there > > > indeed is a way to the ending of suffering through studying and > > recollecting > > > on the terms and categories of the Abhidhamma, I hope by joining > > DSG, that > > > path will soon become clear to me. > > > > Ph: Studying the terms is just the tip of the iceberg. What > happens > > on this message board is just the tip of the iceberg. The real > > practice is in daily life. Since we are not able to look into the > > minds of our friends here as they go through daily life, there is > no > > way to know to what degree their study and the discussion here is > > bearing fruit in insight in daily life. We shouldn't mistake the > tip > > of the iceberg for what lies beneath. So if the value of > Abdhidhamma > > becomes clear to us, it won't be here at DSG it will be by > examining > > realities in our daily life. We shouldn't look for an > understanding > > of the value of Abdhidhamma though other people's messages here. > > > > That having been said, I'll go ahead and say why this beginner > > thinks Abdhidhamma is important. > > > > Personally, it seems clear to me at this point - thought it's > > early - that understanding the mind and making progress towards > the > > liberation from suffering without the Abhidhamma would be like > trying > > to be a surgeon without having an anatomy textbook. Reading suttas > > would be like reading case studies. They contain references to > > anatomy, of course, but without a fundamental knowledge of the > > anatomy, the references to anatomy in patients' case studies > would > > not be of much use and might lead to malpractice. Meditating > without > > a knowledge of Abdhidhamma would seem like a surgeon just going on > in > > and seeing what happens, with an even greater probability of > > malpractice. I'm sure we all know how many beginning meditators go > > merrily down the wrong path - not that I'm intending to put you in > > that boat. I'm referring to the way I started meditation last year > > without any knowledge of nama and rupa. I was just playing with > > calmness. > > > > I want to know about Abhidhamma before I begin serious study of > > suttas or meditation because it seems to me that it contains the > > detailed description of the mind (the anatomy, if you will) that > we > > will need to heal it and gain liberation. That seems very clear to > > me, but, as I said, it's still early. > > > > Metta, > > Phil 34365 From: Philip Date: Sat Jul 3, 2004 4:18am Subject: Talk with Rob K conclusion Hello all, Before we turned off the tape recorder, our last topic was broached by a sutta that I had been impressed by, the Khanda Vagga Sutta. Here is the passage that I referred to: "Just as a dog, tied by a leash to a post or stake, keeps running around and circling around that very post or stake; in the same way, an uninstructed, run-of-the-mill person -- who has no regard for noble ones, is not well-versed or disciplined in their Dhamma; who has no regard for people of integrity, is not well-versed or disciplined in their Dhamma -- assumes form to be the self, or the self as possessing form, or form as in the self, or the self as in form. "He assumes feeling to be the self... etc..." Phil: I found this through reading your posts, this sutta. I found I have a very affectionate feeling towards people and I think understand the three characteristics - to the limited degree I have - has only deepened it, because it has removed ill-will and hostility. And I have this affection for people. And I think this image of people running around - and I think that's why when I came to the airport I was moved. (note - I was moved to tears for some reason when I arrived at the airport to meet Rob K - I've always loved airports.) There's this sense of the way people rush around - the way I do, the way we all do. It's a very compassionate image. Rob K: Wherever you go, whether it's left or right, you're stuck on this post of self. It's very hard to break away from that. You can go in the mountains and live in a cave for 20 years but if there's not the understanding of the present moment, the conditioned reality, you'll still be stuck in self. Another dog simile - you might have read it - every other teacher, every other religious teacher, they teach how to teach the symptom of the disease, but the Buddha teaches how to eradicate the cause. And the cause is self-view. And it's like a dog, when you throw a stick at it, it snarls, and it bites the stick. But the lion brushes the stick aside and goes for the man. And this is the difference. ----- We talked some more after turning the tape recorder off. Taking a look at some things I jotted down, I see we talked about the value of reminding others of their good deeds. How good deeds were listed to kings on their deathbeds. We talked about Zen - I mentionned that coming across Abhidhamma had given me a new appreciation for Zen, because of the stress on direct experience of realities. He agreed, and recommended books by a woman named Toni Packer. I talked about my unwholesome interest in the news, and he said that while George Bussh might be the object for my ill-will, it is the ill-will that is important to look at, not the object. And there was something about the importance of balancing confidence with wisdom. It was indeed a very fruitful discussion. I'll enjoy listening to the tape again. There is also lovely piano music in the bacground, and the occasional appearance of a waitress bringing us iced coffee. Many thanks to Rob K for his time - I'll always remember that bit when I worried that he might be late for an appointment and he said "nothing is more important than talking about Dhamma." And the part where he said nothing is more important than Dhamma - even if it were to cost me my marriage! That's what I took away from our talk - a sense of devotion to Dhamma, to examining realities in the present moment, and that feeling has stayed with me for the month or so that has passed since we met. Metta, Phil 34366 From: Philip Date: Sat Jul 3, 2004 4:45am Subject: [dsg] Re: some caution and non-advice Hi Herman, H: > Would you say that it is sensible to get to know everything about > tobacco, about human physiology, about cigarette manufacturers and their > brands before one attempts to give up smoking? Ph: Hmm. I'm not sure that's a suitable comparison, not only because the danger of smoking is so evident, but also the way of liberation from smoking is so clear cut. You stop smoking. If we try to take clear cut actions for liberation from samsara (sp?) we risk fooling ourselves and getting deeper into wrong view of self. Is there anything clear cut about how to understand annata, annica and dukkha? I don't think so. It seems to me that Abhidhamma lays out a manual for beginning to understand the aggregates, for starting to get at understanding the three characteristics. Again, it's still early, but that's how it feels to me now. And it's made a huge impact on the amount of anger in my life. I used to be a chain shouter, but now I'm down to 3 or 4 &#%#s! a day. Even having an intellectual understanding of the three characteristics is so liberating. There is no one to get angry at, in the absolute sense. People are all going through life in a conditioned way. I undertand that now, and it liberates me from so much anger. I could have found that understanding elsewhere, of course, but even though I'd read about annata hundreds of times here and there over a couple of years it had never begun to have any meaning for me until I came across "Abhidhamma in Daily Life." That would not be the case for everyone. We all have conditions and accumulations that make it more or less likely that we'll respond to different aspects of the Buddha's teaching, I guess. Metta, Phil --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Herman Hofman" wrote: > Hi Phil, > > Would you say that it is sensible to get to know everything about > tobacco, about human physiology, about cigarette manufacturers and their > brands before one attempts to give up smoking? > > Catch you later > > Herman > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Philip [mailto:plnao@j...] > Sent: Saturday, 3 July 2004 8:16 PM > To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [dsg] Re: some caution and non-advice > > > Hi Victor, and all > > > What is it that the Buddha taught? Is what the Buddha taught > about > > the detailed description of the mind? > > Ph: The Buddha taught a way to liberation. And a very explicit one, > it seems to this beginner. One of the three division of the Buddha's > teaching is the Abhidhamma which from the little I understand can be > described as a detailed description of not only mind but matter as > well. > It seems logical to me to begin by understanding as thoroughly as > possible the nature of mind and matter before learning the practices > that lead to liberation. Just like I would want to be familiar with > all the parts of an engine before I started to repair it. I know this > is a simplistic way of looking at things, but unless I have > completely misunderstood what Abhidhamma is about (quite possible!) > it seems a sensible way to go about Dhamma study. > > Metta, > Phil 34367 From: Date: Sat Jul 3, 2004 0:55am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: some caution and non-advice Hi, Phil (and Victor) - In a message dated 7/3/04 6:33:27 AM Eastern Daylight Time, plnao@j... writes: > Hi Victor, and all > > >What is it that the Buddha taught? Is what the Buddha taught > about > >the detailed description of the mind? > > Ph: The Buddha taught a way to liberation. And a very explicit one, > it seems to this beginner. One of the three division of the Buddha's > teaching is the Abhidhamma which from the little I understand can be > described as a detailed description of not only mind but matter as > well. > ------------------------------------------------ Howard: Certainly the Abhidhamma goes into the fine details of all (conditioned) phenomena, both namic and rupic. I would suspect, however, that what Victor was driving at was that what is needed to be known (or, better, to be *seen*) about phenomena for the purpose of liberation is what is common to all phenomena, namely their impermanence, insubstantiality, dependent status (lack of self-sufficient existence), impersonality, and inabilty to satisfy, i.e., their tendency to lead to dissatisfaction or outright distress when craved, hated, or clung to. Now, the remainder the Dhamma consists of teachings which, when contemplated and put into practice, will lead to these liberating insights, by cultivating the mind. The Abhidhamma, lays out the teachings given in the discourses in a context-free, theoretical fashion. The Dhammasangani and the Patthana, together, do most of this. The analytic presentation of the former together with the synthetic, relational format of the latter together seem to attempt to provide a conceptual, theoretical analogue to what one may come to directly see as the fruit of vipassana (and samatha) bhavana, and, for people to whom this Abhidhammic format appeals, these can serve as a guide to practice. In order for the Abhidhamma to appeal to one, it seems to me that one must be happy with "dry detail", a trait that many people, me included, lack. Moreover, it seems to me that much important teaching material of the suttas, especially in terms of skillful means of presenation, is missing from the Abhidhamma, and, conversely, much superfluous material irrelevant to the task of liberation - and some of it questionable - is included in the Abhidhamma. In its (not fully realized) attempt at completeness, the Abhidhamma includes many leaves of the forest that are not among the useful ones held in the Buddha's hand. There is also the danger, I believe, in the detailed and manifold lists of the Abhidhamma leading people to substitute memorization of compendious lists, concepts, and definitions for the direct "watching" of phenomena as they arise, directly grasping their nature. Nina and her teacher, Khun Sujin, wisely teach not making this substitution. They emphasize "Abhidhamma in Daily Life" which, as I understand it, uses the Abhidhamma as a guide to ongoing mindful watching of dhammas as they arise and cease, displaying the tilakkhana that constitute their common nature. -------------------------------------------------------- > It seems logical to me to begin by understanding as thoroughly as > possible the nature of mind and matter before learning the practices > that lead to liberation. Just like I would want to be familiar with > all the parts of an engine before I started to repair it. I know this > is a simplistic way of looking at things, but unless I have > completely misunderstood what Abhidhamma is about (quite possible!) > it seems a sensible way to go about Dhamma study. > ------------------------------------------------------- Howard: I would strongly urge simultaneous patipatti along with your Abhidhammic pariyatti, and also not restricting your study to Abhidhamma and to popularizations thereof, but to also thoroughly study the suttas, which constitute the historical record of how the buddha actually went about instructing his followers. ---------------------------------------------------------- > > > Metta, > Phil > ============================ With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 34368 From: robmoult Date: Sat Jul 3, 2004 5:51am Subject: Jhana Factors in Suttas Hi All, I just finished delivering my first of four weekly 2-hour talks on Abhidhamma. During the break, I met Lee (a DSG member) and he asked me if I was aware of any Sutta references that explicitly listed the five Jhana factors in the first Jhana. I admit that I have not spent much time studying jahanas. I am hoping that some other DSG member may have the reference handy. Metta, Rob M :-) PS: I know that I am behind on a couple of posts. 34369 From: robmoult Date: Sat Jul 3, 2004 6:45am Subject: Re: Every Paramattha dhamma can be clearly observed from experience ? Hi Ken H, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > Hi Rob M, > > We were discussing whether citta and cetasika were included among > the objects of mind-door consciousness. You wrote: > ------------------- > > Bhikku Bodhi's Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma (p136) says: > --------------- > > That clarifies the question nicely, thanks Rob. Could it be > answered by consulting the ancient commentaries? ===== 1000 years not ancient enough for ya (that is when Acariya Anuruddha wrote the Abhidhammattasangaha)? ===== > > Without doing any research myself (as usual) I tend to think K Sujin > and her students have already done it and, if I understand them > correctly, they are of the opinion that citta and the 52 cetasikas > can be experienced at the mind door, one at a time. > > Doesn't it make sense to you when you think about it? For example, > you and I understand, reasonably well, the meaning of greed - how > could we have acquired that understanding if citta had never taken > lobha as its object? ===== Greed must always arise together with delusion, lack of fear, lack of shame and restlessness (each of these are cetasikas). Greed needs these four as a foundation to exist. Delusion blinds one to the true nature of the object and greed cannot exist without this mental blindness. Knowing that greed is unwholesome, how can greed arise without a lack of shame (of doing something unwholesom) and without a lack of fear (of the results of kamma)? With a calm and tranquil mind, one can penetrate the true nature of the object. Greed must therefore depend on the absence of calmness / tranquillity (i.e. restlessness). ===== > > Thanks also for explaining how kamma and the emotions get stronger > as the citta-vitis progressively conceptualise sensory data. I am > swayed towards your opinion (that they start weak and get stronger) > and then back to my opinion (that they start strong and get > weaker). Perhaps neither is right: perhaps the level stays constant > or it fluctuates unpredictably. > > I'm not sure how your `falling in love' questionnaire fits into the > explanation, but I'll have a go at it: > --------- > Q: > When you first fell in love (love is as strong an emotion as I > can imagine), how much of that love was really love for that person > (did you really know them that well???) versus love with the way > that you felt (love with the idea of being in love)? And when you > fell in love, was it really her eyes, her hair, etc. that prompted > those strong feelings? (sorry for getting personal, no need to > answer). > > --------------- > > According to my thesis, there was very, very strong lobha for sense > objects. Not directly knowing sense objects, my conceptualising mind > said; "What is going on here? I must be in love with [name > deleted]!" But that was only thinking. [Name deleted] was not > ultimately real, and the lobha that experienced her (if I may use > that expression) was accordingly weak - I only thought it was strong. > ===== Love is a very, very strong emotion. If we carefully consider the mental states at the time, we can see that it is concepts, not paramattha dhammas which trigger love. At least, this is the way that I remember it. I have a hard time tracing back the strong emotion to paramattha dhammas. ===== > --------------------- > KH: > > It is just my opinion, but I think that > > kamma and the other cetasikas are mainly interested in dhammas and > > we only *think* we are interested in concepts (people, places, > > situations). > > > > > RM: > Please expand on your opinion. It sounds interesting. I have > never learned anything from anybody who agreed with me. > ----------------------- > > OK, it's only a half thought-out opinion but here are two reasons > for holding it: > 1. The Dhamma repeatedly tells us that desire, aversion and > ignorance with regard to the five sense objects (dhammas) and the > mind objects (dhammas and concepts) are the cause of suffering. If > desire etc., for concepts stood out, head and shoulders above the > rest, then we would expect the Dhamma to explain it that way. ===== I go back to my "pressure on the trigger" analogy. The responses to the paramattha dhammas may be weak, but it is a critical trigger to start the conceptual process in motion. ===== > > 2. Kamma results in the experience of sense objects (dhammas). If, > as you say, kamma is directed most strongly at concepts, then > wouldn't the result of kamma be the experience of concepts, rather > than the experience of dhammas? ===== I am not aware of any rule as part of kamma condition that says that the object of the javana citta has any relation to the object of the vipaka citta. Of course, natural decisive support condition links past objects (concepts / mental states / rupa) with the current mental state. Metta, Rob M :-) 34370 From: Date: Sat Jul 3, 2004 3:03am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: some caution and non-advice Hi, Herman - In a message dated 7/3/04 7:35:21 AM Eastern Daylight Time, hhofman@t... writes: > Hi Phil, > > Would you say that it is sensible to get to know everything about > tobacco, about human physiology, about cigarette manufacturers and their > brands before one attempts to give up smoking? > > Catch you later > > Herman ====================== Well said! Far more succinct and to the point than my offering on this issue. :-) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 34371 From: robmoult Date: Sat Jul 3, 2004 7:09am Subject: Re: Jhana Factors in Suttas Hi Lee, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" wrote: > I just finished delivering my first of four weekly 2-hour talks on > Abhidhamma. During the break, I met Lee (a DSG member) and he asked > me if I was aware of any Sutta references that explicitly listed the > five Jhana factors in the first Jhana. > > I admit that I have not spent much time studying jahanas. I am hoping > that some other DSG member may have the reference handy. > The Mahavedalla Sutta (Mn 43, verse 19): "Friend, how many factors does the first jhana have?" "Friend, the first jhana has five factors. Here, when a bhikkhu has entered upon the first jhana, there occur applied thought, sustained thought, rapture, pleasure and unification of mind. That is how the first jhana has five factors." Lee, is this specific enough? Metta, Rob M :-) 34372 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Sat Jul 3, 2004 11:18am Subject: Re: some caution and non-advice Hi Christine and all, I will reply in context. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Hello Victor, Phil, all, > > The Buddha taught Suffering (Dukkha), the Arising of Suffering > (Samudaya), the Cessation of Suffering (Nirodha) and the Way leading > to the Cessation of Suffering (Magga). Yes, the Buddha taught the four Noble Truths. And in Simpasa Sutta [1], the Buddha explained why he had taught them and why he had not taught many other things that he had known with direct knowledge. > > He also taught in the very first verse of the Dhammapada: > "Mind is the forerunner of (all evil) states. Mind is chief; mind- > made are they. If one speaks or acts with wicked mind, because of > that, suffering follows one, even as the wheel follows the hoof of > the draught-ox." The verse above is about right view on kamma/intention/action. > > So, yes, the Blessed One taught us to study and try to understand > just what this mind is. The Buddha taught how a monk remains focused on the mind in & of itself.[2] Psychology is the science of the mind. It can be a very fascinating field of study for some. Otherwise there is a risk that we will take > the consciousness as Self or the Self as something that stands > behind consciousness, and miss the truth of Anatta. Here is one > sutta where He indicated it was important to study the mind (mano, > citta, vinnana). > > "In the Book of Causation (Nidaanavagga) VII The Great Subchapter 61 > (1) Uninstructed (1) p. 595 Samyutta Nikaya Vol 1 (Bodhi) > "Thus have I heard. On one occasion the Blessed One was dwelling at > Saavatthii in Jeta's Grove, Anaathapindika's Park .... > "Bhikkhus, the uninstructed worldling might experience revulsion > towards this body composed of the four great elements; he might > become dispassionate towards it and be liberated from it. For what > reason? Because growth and decline is seen in this body composed of > the four great elements, it is seen being taken up and laid aside. > Therefore the uninstructed worldling might experience revulsion > towards this body composed of the four great elements; he might > become dispassionate towards it and be liberated from it. > > "But, bhikkhus, as to that which is called 'mind' and 'mentality' > and 'consciousness' - the uninstructed worldling is unable to > experience revulsion towards it, unable to become dispassionate > towards it and be liberated from it. For what reason? Because for a > long time this has been held to by him, appropriated, and grasped > thus: 'This is mine, this I am, this is my self.' Therefore the > uninstructed worldling is unable to experience revulsion towards it, > unable to become dispassionate towards it and be liberated from it. > "It would be better, bhikkhus, for the uninstructed worldling to > take as self this body composed of the four great elements rather > than the mind. For what reason? Because this body composed of the > four great elements is seen standing for one year, for two years, > for three, four, five, or ten years, for twenty, thirty, forty, or > fifty years, for a hundred years, or even longer. > But that which is called 'mind' and 'mentality' and consciousness' > arises as one thing and ceases as another by day and by night. Just > as a monkey roaming through a forest grabs hold of one branch, lets > that go and grabs another, then lets that go and grabs still > another, so too that which is called 'mind' and 'mentality' > and 'consciousness' arises as one thing and ceases as another by day > and by night. [note 157] > "Therein, bhikkhus, the instructed noble disciple attends closely > and carefully to dependent origination itself thus: > 'When this exists, that comes to be; with the arising of this, that > arises. When this does not exist, that does not come to be; with the > cessation of this, that ceases. That is, with ignorance as > condition, volitional formations [come to be]; with volitional > formations as condition, consciousness .... Such is the origin of > this whole mass of suffering. But with the remainderless fading away > and cessation of ignorance comes cessation of volitional formations; > with the cessation of volitional formations, cessation of > consciousness .... Such is the cessation of this whole mass of > suffering. > "Seeing thus, bhikkhus, the instructed noble disciple experiences > revulsion towards form, revulsion towards feeling, revulsion towards > perception, revulsion towards volitional formations, revulsion > towards consciousness. Experiencing revulsion, he becomes > dispassionate. Through dispassion [his mind] is liberated. When it > is liberated there comes the knowledge: "It's liberated.' He > understands: 'Destroyed is birth, the holy life has been lived, what > had to be done has been done, there is no more for this state of > being.'" > > [note 157: Spk: 'By day and by night (rattiyaa ca divasassa ca): > This is a genitive in the locative sense, i.e., during the night and > during the day. Arises as one thing and ceases as another (annadeva > uppajjati, anna.m nirujjhati): The meaning is that (the mind) that > arises and ceases during the day is other than (the mind) that > arises and ceases during the night. The statement should not be > taken to mean that one thing arises and some thing altogether > different, which had not arisen, ceases. "Day and night" is said by > way of continuity, taking a continuity of lesser duration than the > previous one (i.e. the one stated for the body). But one citta is > not able to endure for a whole day or a whole night. Even in the > time of a fingersnap many hundred thousand kotis of cittas arise and > cease (1 koti=10 million). The simile of the monkey should be > understood thus: The "grove of objects" is like the forest grove. > The mind arising in the grove of objects is like the monkey > wandering in the forest grove. The mind's taking hold of an object > is like the monkey grabbing hold of a branch. Just as the monkey, > roaming through the forest, leaves behind one branch and grabs hold > of another, so the mind, roaming through the grove of objects, > arises sometimes grasping hold of a visible object, sometimes a > sound, sometimes the past, sometimes the present or future, > sometimes an internal object, sometimes an external object. When the > monkey does not find a (new) branch it does not descend and sit on > the ground, but sits holding to a single leafy branch. So too, when > the mind is roaming through the grove of objects, it cannot be said > that it arises without holding to an object; rather it arises > holding to an object of a single kind. > > It should be noted that neither the sutta nor the commentary > interprets the monkey simile here as saying that the untrained mind > is as restless as a monkey; the point, rather, is that the mind is > always dependent on an object.] So attend closely and carefully to dependent origination and see consciousness as it actually is with right discernment thus: "This is not mine. This I am not. This is not my self." > > Lovely to see you posting again Victor - missed you. :-) Thank you for your kind words. :-) > > metta and peace, > Christine Metta, Victor [1] Samyutta Nikaya LVI.31 Simsapa Sutta The Simsapa Leaves http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn56-031.html [2] Majjhima Nikaya 10 Satipatthana Sutta Frames of Reference http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/majjhima/mn010.html 34373 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Sat Jul 3, 2004 11:47am Subject: Re: Paramatthaka Sutta Hi Christine and all, I checked the Pali-English dictionary http://dsal.uchicago.edu/dictionaries/pali/ on "paramattha" and found it's definition as the following: Paramattha (p. 421) [pp. of paramasati] touched, grasped, usually in bad sense: succumbing to, defiled, corrupted D I.17; for a different, commentarial interpretation see Paramasa (evan° so acquired or taken up; cp. DA I.107: nirasanka--cittataya punappuna amattha); S II.94; Nd2 152 (gahita p. abhinivittha; cp. gahessasi No. 227); Dhs 584, 1177, 1500; Sdhp 332. --dup° wrongly grasped, misused S I.49. --apparamattha [cp. BSk. aparamrsta not affected Mvyutp. p. 84] untarnished, incorrupt D II.80 (cp. Dial II.85); III.245; S II.70; A III.36. It says nothing about "paramattha" meaning "ultimate," but conforms with the meaning of "paramatthaka" that you suggested. But regardless the meaning of the word "paramattha" and "paramatthaka," the view "this is ultimate, and that is just a concept" is to be abandoned. Metta, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Hello Herman, Victor, all, > > Do you think it is possible that you are confusing two similar words? > > When we are speaking of Ultimate Realities the Pali word is: > paramattha : [m.] the highest ideal; truth in the ultimate sense. > > I think the word in the title of this sutta - the Paramatthaka > Sutta - comes from paraamattha (pp. of paraamasati) which means > touched; held on to; was attached; caressed. Reading the sutta in > both translations by Thanissaro Bhikkhu, and by John Ireland, I > think it is refering to clinging to views - not, I think, in any > way to ultimate realities. > > metta and peace, > Christine > ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "yu_zhonghao" > wrote: > > Hi Herman and all, > > > > I think this discourse is a relevant reminder for abandoning the > > view of paramattha dhamma, namely: This is ultimate, that is just > a > > concept/paññatti. > > > > Metta, > > Victor > > > > > > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Herman Hofman" > > wrote: > > > Hi everyone, > > > > > > This is what the Buddha had to say about paramattha anythings. > > > > > > "A person who associates himself with certain views, considering > > them as > > > best and making them supreme in the world, he says, because of > > that, > > > that all other views are inferior; therefore he is not free from > > > contention (with others). In what is seen, heard, cognized and > in > > ritual > > > observances performed, he sees a profit for himself. Just by > > laying hold > > > of that view he regards every other view as worthless. Those > > skilled (in > > > judgment)[1] say that (a view becomes) a bond if, relying on it, > > one > > > regards everything else as inferior. Therefore a bhikkhu should > not > > > depend on what is seen, heard or cognized, nor upon ritual > > observances. > > > He should not present himself as equal to, nor imagine himself > to > > be > > > inferior, nor better than, another. Abandoning (the views) he had > > > (previously) held and not taking up (another), he does not seek a > > > support even in knowledge. Among those who dispute he is > certainly > > not > > > one to take sides. He does not [have] recourse to a view at all. > > In whom > > > there is no inclination to either extreme, for becoming or non- > > becoming, > > > here or in another existence, for him there does not exist a > fixed > > > viewpoint on investigating the doctrines assumed (by others). > > Concerning > > > the seen, the heard and the cognized he does not form the least > > notion. > > > That brahmana[2] who does not grasp at a view, with what could > he > > be > > > identified in the world? > > > > > > "They do not speculate nor pursue (any notion); doctrines are not > > > accepted by them. A (true) brahmana is beyond, does not fall > back > > on > > > views." > > > > > > -- vv. 796-803 > > > > > > taken from > > > > > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/khuddaka/suttanipata/snp4- > > 05a > > > .html > > > > > > > > > Savour the flavour > > > > > > > > > Herman 34374 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Sat Jul 3, 2004 0:01pm Subject: Re: some caution and non-advice Hi Phil and all, Physical sciences such as physics and chemistry are the sciences of the matter and energy. The Buddha himself used the 'method of "gradual training" (anupubbi- katha)...to guide newcomers from first principles through progressively more advanced teachings, all the way to the fulfillment of the Four Noble Truths and the realization of Nibbana.' http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/dhamma.html http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/khuddaka/udana/ud5- 03.html#gradual Metta, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Philip" wrote: > > Hi Victor, and all > > > What is it that the Buddha taught? Is what the Buddha taught > about > > the detailed description of the mind? > > Ph: The Buddha taught a way to liberation. And a very explicit one, > it seems to this beginner. One of the three division of the Buddha's > teaching is the Abhidhamma which from the little I understand can be > described as a detailed description of not only mind but matter as > well. > It seems logical to me to begin by understanding as thoroughly as > possible the nature of mind and matter before learning the practices > that lead to liberation. Just like I would want to be familiar with > all the parts of an engine before I started to repair it. I know this > is a simplistic way of looking at things, but unless I have > completely misunderstood what Abhidhamma is about (quite possible!) > it seems a sensible way to go about Dhamma study. > > Metta, > Phil > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "yu_zhonghao" > wrote: > > Hi Phil and all, > > > > What is it that the Buddha taught? Is what the Buddha taught about > > the detailed description of the mind? > > > > Metta, > > Victor 34375 From: Date: Sat Jul 3, 2004 8:23am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: some caution and non-advice In a message dated 7/3/04 11:30:44 AM Pacific Daylight Time, yu_zhonghao@y... writes: Yes, the Buddha taught the four Noble Truths. And in Simpasa Sutta [1], the Buddha explained why he had taught them and why he had not taught many other things that he had known with direct knowledge. ==== Anyone, Do you know where I can find the Simpasa Sutta. My Internet search engines can't find it. Jack 34376 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Sat Jul 3, 2004 0:30pm Subject: [dsg] Re: some caution and non-advice Hi Jack The link for Samyutta Nikaya LVI.31 Simsapa Sutta The Simsapa Leaves is http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn56-031.html Metta, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jackhat1@a... wrote: > In a message dated 7/3/04 11:30:44 AM Pacific Daylight Time, > yu_zhonghao@y... writes: > Yes, the Buddha taught the four Noble Truths. And in Simpasa Sutta > [1], the Buddha explained why he had taught them and why he had not > taught many other things that he had known with direct knowledge. > ==== > Anyone, > > Do you know where I can find the Simpasa Sutta. My Internet search engines > can't find it. > > Jack > > > 34377 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Sat Jul 3, 2004 0:36pm Subject: [dsg] Re: some caution and non-advice Hi Jack, "Simpasa Sutta" should read "Simsapa Sutta." Sorry about the typo!! Metta, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jackhat1@a... wrote: > In a message dated 7/3/04 11:30:44 AM Pacific Daylight Time, > yu_zhonghao@y... writes: > Yes, the Buddha taught the four Noble Truths. And in Simpasa Sutta > [1], the Buddha explained why he had taught them and why he had not > taught many other things that he had known with direct knowledge. > ==== > Anyone, > > Do you know where I can find the Simpasa Sutta. My Internet search engines > can't find it. > > Jack > > > 34378 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sat Jul 3, 2004 1:07pm Subject: Re: Paramatthaka Sutta Hello Victor, all, The Pali-English Dictionary is a very complex document which has a large number of separate entries for 'para'. Not just one. http://dsal.uchicago.edu/dictionaries/pali/index.html Use the Second Search engine in the 'words that match' category. This will bring up 147 entries when 'para' is searched on, then click on "key word in context display". This will bring up the first 100 instances. Then click on entry no. 74 for 'Parama'. If you don't want to go through that rigamarole and want to go straight to the particulary entry I am referring to, I have converted the long url to a tiny one for your convenience: http://tinyurl.com/38mrj Here is the one I was referring to, in which this excerpt is relevant: "nn--attha [cp. class. Sk. paramartha] the highest good, ideal; truth in the ultimate sense, philosophical truth (cp. Kvu trsl. 180; J.P.T.S. 1914, 129 sq.; Cpd. 6, 81); Arahantship Sn 68 (=vuccati Amatan Nibbanan etc. Nd2 409), 219 (°dassin); Nd2 26; Miln 19, 31; ° dipani Exposition of the Highest Truth, N. of the Commentary on Th, Vv and Pv; mentioned e. g. at PvA 71; °jotika id., N. of the C. on Kh and Sn, mentioned e. g. at KhA 11. -- As °--, in instr. and abl. used adverbially Qn meaning of "in the highest sense, absolutely, kat) e)coxh/n, primarily, ideally, in an absolute sense," like ° parami Bu I.77 °visuddhi A V.64; °sannita Th 2, 210; °sunna Ps II.184; °suddhi SnA 528; abl. paramatthato Miln 28; VvA 24 (manusso), 30 (bhikkhu), 72 (jivitindriyan); PvA 146 (pabbajito, corresponding to anavasesato), 253 (na koci kinci hanati=not at all); instr. paramatthena Miln 71 (vedagu), 268 (sattupaladdhi). -- gati the highest or best course of life or future exsitence Vv 3512 (=anupadisesa--nibbana VvA 164). metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "yu_zhonghao" wrote: > Hi Christine and all, > > I checked the Pali-English dictionary > http://dsal.uchicago.edu/dictionaries/pali/ > on "paramattha" and found it's definition as the following: > > Paramattha (p. 421) [pp. of paramasati] touched, grasped, usually in > bad sense: succumbing to, defiled, corrupted D I.17; for a > different, commentarial interpretation see Paramasa (evan° so > acquired or taken up; cp. DA I.107: nirasanka--cittataya punappuna > amattha); S II.94; Nd2 152 (gahita p. abhinivittha; cp. gahessasi > No. 227); Dhs 584, 1177, 1500; Sdhp 332. --dup° wrongly grasped, > misused S I.49. --apparamattha [cp. BSk. aparamrsta not affected > Mvyutp. p. 84] untarnished, incorrupt D II.80 (cp. Dial II.85); > III.245; S II.70; A III.36. > > It says nothing about "paramattha" meaning "ultimate," but conforms > with the meaning of "paramatthaka" that you suggested. > > But regardless the meaning of the word "paramattha" > and "paramatthaka," the view "this is ultimate, and that is just a > concept" is to be abandoned. > > Metta, > Victor > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" > wrote: > > Hello Herman, Victor, all, > > > > Do you think it is possible that you are confusing two similar > words? > > > > When we are speaking of Ultimate Realities the Pali word is: > > paramattha : [m.] the highest ideal; truth in the ultimate sense. > > > > I think the word in the title of this sutta - the Paramatthaka > > Sutta - comes from paraamattha (pp. of paraamasati) which means > > touched; held on to; was attached; caressed. Reading the sutta > in > > both translations by Thanissaro Bhikkhu, and by John Ireland, I > > think it is refering to clinging to views - not, I think, in any > > way to ultimate realities. > > > > metta and peace, > > Christine > > ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- 34379 From: Philip Date: Sat Jul 3, 2004 2:56pm Subject: Re: some caution and non-advice Hi Victor > The Buddha himself used the 'method of "gradual training" (anupubbi- > katha)...to guide newcomers from first principles through > progressively more advanced teachings, all the way to the > fulfillment of the Four Noble Truths and the realization of Nibbana.' > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/dhamma.html > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/khuddaka/udana/ud5- > 03.html#gradual Ph: Thank you for this information. So far I've been limiting my focussed sutta study (ie other than those that come up incidentally) to the Dhammapada, but you've provided me with the Buddha's way of approaching them. Wonderful! The second link doesn't work, but when I checked Udana at Access to Insight I found that it is a collection of short suttas. Are they often recommended to beginners? I will stick to seeking a basic understanding of Abhidhdamma before launching into focussed study of Majhimma Nikaya or Samyutta (sp?) Nikaya through the Bodhi anthologies. It still feels sensible to me, and I have a keen interest in it, and keen interest should not be discouraged unless it is leading one into wrong view. I won't yet be able to understand Abhidhamma fully, of course, but any lack of understanding will not take me any further from understanding annata. (ie failing to understand Abdhidhamma is not as dangerous as failing to understand the purpose of meditation, which can lead to strengthening self-view, in my opinion and speaking from experience.) But I will also pay attention to the Buddha's gradual training and add the body of suttas you have linked me to to my study of Dhammapada. Thanks again. Phil > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Philip" wrote: > > > > Hi Victor, and all > > > > > What is it that the Buddha taught? Is what the Buddha taught > > about > > > the detailed description of the mind? > > > > Ph: The Buddha taught a way to liberation. And a very explicit > one, > > it seems to this beginner. One of the three division of the > Buddha's > > teaching is the Abhidhamma which from the little I understand can > be > > described as a detailed description of not only mind but matter as > > well. > > It seems logical to me to begin by understanding as thoroughly > as > > possible the nature of mind and matter before learning the > practices > > that lead to liberation. Just like I would want to be familiar > with > > all the parts of an engine before I started to repair it. I know > this > > is a simplistic way of looking at things, but unless I have > > completely misunderstood what Abhidhamma is about (quite > possible!) > > it seems a sensible way to go about Dhamma study. > > > > Metta, > > Phil > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "yu_zhonghao" > > wrote: > > > Hi Phil and all, > > > > > > What is it that the Buddha taught? Is what the Buddha taught > about > > > the detailed description of the mind? > > > > > > Metta, > > > Victor 34380 From: Philip Date: Sat Jul 3, 2004 3:02pm Subject: Re: some caution and non-advice Hi again, Victor Now I see that the Udana sutta you were linking me to is The Leper. I remember reading that before and being deeply impressed by how the Buddha healed the Leper's mind through a systematic teaching rather than using magic as some other fellow once did to heal a leper's body, according to hearsay. ;) Mind you, I think the fact that the Buddha (and the leper) were able to pull this off in one sitting is verging on magic but nevermind. :) Metta, Phil --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Philip" wrote: > > Hi Victor > > > The Buddha himself used the 'method of "gradual training" (anupubbi- > > katha)...to guide newcomers from first principles through > > progressively more advanced teachings, all the way to the > > fulfillment of the Four Noble Truths and the realization of > Nibbana.' > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/dhamma.html > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/khuddaka/udana/ud5- > > 03.html#gradual > > 34381 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Sat Jul 3, 2004 4:06pm Subject: Re: Paramatthaka Sutta Hi Chrisitine and all, Thanks for the explanation and the link. That is cool to convert a long url to a tiny one. How would one do that? Metta, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Hello Victor, all, > > The Pali-English Dictionary is a very complex document which has a > large number of separate entries for 'para'. Not just one. > > http://dsal.uchicago.edu/dictionaries/pali/index.html > Use the Second Search engine in the 'words that match' category. > This will bring up 147 entries when 'para' is searched on, then > click on "key word in context display". This will bring up the > first 100 instances. Then click on entry no. 74 for 'Parama'. > If you don't want to go through that rigamarole and want to go > straight to the particulary entry I am referring to, I have > converted the long url to a tiny one for your convenience: > http://tinyurl.com/38mrj > Here is the one I was referring to, in which this excerpt is > relevant: > > "nn--attha [cp. class. Sk. paramartha] the highest good, ideal; > truth in the ultimate sense, philosophical truth (cp. Kvu trsl. 180; > J.P.T.S. 1914, 129 sq.; Cpd. 6, 81); Arahantship Sn 68 (=vuccati > Amatan Nibbanan etc. Nd2 409), 219 (°dassin); Nd2 26; Miln 19, 31; ° > dipani Exposition of the Highest Truth, N. of the Commentary on Th, > Vv and Pv; mentioned e. g. at PvA 71; °jotika id., N. of the C. on > Kh and Sn, mentioned e. g. at KhA 11. -- As °--, in instr. and abl. > used adverbially Qn meaning of "in the highest sense, absolutely, > kat) e)coxh/n, primarily, ideally, in an absolute sense," like ° > parami Bu I.77 °visuddhi A V.64; °sannita Th 2, 210; °sunna Ps > II.184; °suddhi SnA 528; abl. paramatthato Miln 28; VvA 24 > (manusso), 30 (bhikkhu), 72 (jivitindriyan); PvA 146 (pabbajito, > corresponding to anavasesato), 253 (na koci kinci hanati=not at > all); instr. paramatthena Miln 71 (vedagu), 268 (sattupaladdhi). -- > gati the highest or best course of life or future exsitence Vv 3512 > (=anupadisesa--nibbana VvA 164). > > metta and peace, > Christine > ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- 34382 From: Herman Hofman Date: Sat Jul 3, 2004 4:15pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: some caution and non-advice Hi Philip, I'm glad to see that you've never smoked :-) Smokers continue to smoke, despite their awareness of its foulness, because of craving. It really is a struggle to give it up. It requires ongoing determined vigilance and effort. Just recently the former Premier of Tasmania died of lung cancer, aged in his early fifties. Even after he was diagnosed with cancer he was unable to give up. Smokers, like all addicts, come up with all sorts of reasons why they will light up another one. That you are on a quest to see the reality of the three characteristics is commendable, and proof aplenty that you already have more than an inkling of the truth of the First Noble Truth. This was the message of Sariputta to Anathapindika on his painful deathbed. "Then, householder, you should train yourself in this way: 'I won't cling to what is seen, heard, sensed, cognized, attained, sought after, pondered by the intellect; my consciousness will not be dependent on that.' That's how you should train yourself." "When this was said, Anathapindika the householder wept and shed tears. Ven. Ananda said to him, "Are you sinking, householder? Are you foundering?" "No, venerable sir. I'm not sinking, nor am I foundering. It's just that for a long time I have attended to the Teacher, and to the monks who inspire my heart, but never before have I heard a talk on the Dhamma like this." "This sort of talk on the Dhamma, householder, is not given to lay people clad in white. This sort of talk on the Dhamma is given to those gone forth." "In that case, Ven. Sariputta, please let this sort of talk on the Dhamma be given to lay people clad in white. There are clansmen with little dust in their eyes who are wasting away through not hearing [this] Dhamma. There will be those who will understand it." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/majjhima/mn143.html The best way to smoke khandas is to not inhale :-) Herman -----Original Message----- From: Philip [mailto:plnao@j...] Sent: Saturday, 3 July 2004 9:45 PM To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Subject: [dsg] Re: some caution and non-advice Hi Herman, H: > Would you say that it is sensible to get to know everything about > tobacco, about human physiology, about cigarette manufacturers and their > brands before one attempts to give up smoking? Ph: Hmm. I'm not sure that's a suitable comparison, not only because the danger of smoking is so evident, but also the way of liberation from smoking is so clear cut. You stop smoking. If we try to take clear cut actions for liberation from samsara (sp?) we risk fooling ourselves and getting deeper into wrong view of self. Is there anything clear cut about how to understand annata, annica and dukkha? I don't think so. It seems to me that Abhidhamma lays out a manual for beginning to understand the aggregates, for starting to get at understanding the three characteristics. 34383 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sat Jul 3, 2004 4:56pm Subject: Re: Paramatthaka Sutta Hello Victor, and all, I use 'tinyurl.com' because I like the name :-) , and because it is the only program I know that can also be used for languages other than english. (Japanese, Mandarin, Spanish). http://tinyurl.com/ Over all, there are eight different programs that can be used to shorten lengthy urls. Go to this site and have a look at the informal survey of these programs. http://notlong.com/links/ metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "yu_zhonghao" wrote: > Hi Chrisitine and all, > > Thanks for the explanation and the link. That is cool to convert a > long url to a tiny one. How would one do that? > > Metta, > Victor 34384 From: nori Date: Sat Jul 3, 2004 6:23pm Subject: Re: [dsg] On the topic of Sensation, Pleasure and Pain hi jon & sarah, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Sarah and I read your post this morning while enjoying the very pleasant > feeling of the sun on our backs sitting high in the Swiss alps, with a > clear view of the Matterhorn, and in my case a lovely cup of coffe to be > enjoyed. There was a lot of pleasant feeling going on ;-)). > Jon Sounds nice. I often wonder whether arahats still 'take pleasure' in sense objects. It is written many times in the suttas that those who 'know' realize that pleasure is pain; it is one and the same (i.e. pleasure will ultimately and inevitably turn to pain.) This idea often makes me cautious of 'enjoying myself'. On the other hand, Buddha is quoted many times in the suttas saying something like, "How pleasent is the moonlit night..." I don't know what to make of these contradictions. metta, nori 34385 From: nori Date: Sat Jul 3, 2004 6:29pm Subject: Re: On the topic of Sensation, Pleasure and Pain hi victor, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "yu_zhonghao" wrote: > Samyutta Nikaya XXXVI.6 > Sallatha Sutta > The Arrow > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn36-006.html > > we have the following passage: > > The Blessed One said, "When touched with a feeling of pain, the > uninstructed run-of-the-mill person sorrows, grieves, & laments, > beats his breast, becomes distraught. So he feels two pains, > physical & mental. Just as if they were to shoot a man with an arrow > and, right afterward, were to shoot him with another one, ... Thanks for pointing out this sutta, nori 34386 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Sat Jul 3, 2004 6:35pm Subject: Re: some caution and non-advice Hi Phil, Reply in context. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Philip" wrote: > > Hi Victor > > > The Buddha himself used the 'method of "gradual training" (anupubbi- > > katha)...to guide newcomers from first principles through > > progressively more advanced teachings, all the way to the > > fulfillment of the Four Noble Truths and the realization of > Nibbana.' > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/dhamma.html > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/khuddaka/udana/ud5- > > 03.html#gradual > > Ph: Thank you for this information. So far I've been limiting my > focussed sutta study (ie other than those that come up incidentally) > to the Dhammapada, but you've provided me with the Buddha's way of > approaching them. Wonderful! No problem. As long as you find the information useful. The second link doesn't work, but when I > checked Udana at Access to Insight I found that it is a collection of > short suttas. Are they often recommended to beginners? Not sure about others. I recommend the page http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/dhamma.html once in a while. > > I will stick to seeking a basic understanding of Abhidhdamma before > launching into focussed study of Majhimma Nikaya or Samyutta (sp?) > Nikaya through the Bodhi anthologies. For reading the discourses, I think you might be interested in the suggestions in the following article: Befriending the Suttas Some Suggestions for Reading the Pali Discourses by John Bullitt http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/sutta101.html It still feels sensible to me, > and I have a keen interest in it, and keen interest should not be > discouraged unless it is leading one into wrong view. There is nothing wrong with pursuing a study in a subject, say, psychology or physics. By pursuing a study in psychology, one gains knowledge about human mind. By pursuing a study in physics, one gains knowledge about matter and energy. I won't yet be > able to understand Abhidhamma fully, of course, but any lack of > understanding will not take me any further from understanding annata. In the discourse Samyutta Nikaya XXII.59 Anatta-lakkhana Sutta The Discourse on the Not-self Characteristic http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn22-059.html the Buddha taught the characteristic of being not self. > (ie failing to understand Abdhidhamma is not as dangerous as failing > to understand the purpose of meditation, which can lead to > strengthening self-view, in my opinion and speaking from > experience.) Here is a link to more links to discourses in which the Buddha spoke about self-view/self-identity view/sakkaya-ditthi: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/index-subject.html#sakkaya To abandon self-identity view, one needs to know what it is first. But I will also pay attention to the Buddha's gradual > training and add the body of suttas you have linked me to to my study > of Dhammapada. > > Thanks again. Again, no problem. Writing this message has got me doing some research in the discourses and reflecting on what the Buddha taught So I thank you for providing that opportunity. > > Phil Metta, Victor 34387 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Sat Jul 3, 2004 6:40pm Subject: Re: Paramatthaka Sutta Hi Christine and all, Wow, that is really cool. Thanks for the info. :-) Now I think I will be able to make tiny url. Metta, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Hello Victor, and all, > > I use 'tinyurl.com' because I like the name :-) , and because it is > the only program I know that can also be used for languages other > than english. (Japanese, Mandarin, Spanish). > http://tinyurl.com/ > > Over all, there are eight different programs that can be used to > shorten lengthy urls. > Go to this site and have a look at the informal survey of these > programs. > http://notlong.com/links/ > > metta and peace, > Christine > ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "yu_zhonghao" > wrote: > > Hi Chrisitine and all, > > > > Thanks for the explanation and the link. That is cool to convert > a > > long url to a tiny one. How would one do that? > > > > Metta, > > Victor 34388 From: kenhowardau Date: Sat Jul 3, 2004 7:17pm Subject: Re: some caution and non-advice Hi Binnatta, You wrote: ------------------- > I'm not completely sure, but it feels like you interpreted my post as an attack on members of this group. It was not intended as such although I admit I could have re-worded some things. > ----------------------- I suppose some of your words could have given offence had I chosen to take them that way, but I was not at all inclined to do so. My reply sailed close to the wind too -- I could have re-worded some things -- but I relied on you to give me the benefit of the doubt. Let's continue to be polite but not to the extent of tiptoeing around sensitivities -- walking on eggshells -- or whatever the expression is. :-) ------------------ > B: I had no idea there was any dispute as to the usefulness of meditation as a tool for liberation; nor of Buddha's predilection for it. In all honesty, I cannot fully see the utility in studying the Abhidhamma or the Commentaries nor how such study relates to the ending of suffering. That is why I joined DSG in the first place; to see what others have to say about it. Perhaps we are both limited in our understanding of proper practice. This is why I value this group. So many different propensities and accumulations, and yet there's a skillfull practice for each of us. > ----------------- Well said --it was a pity to snip some of it. :-) When I first joined dsg, I felt the same way you do. I could see that, here, people were discussing a way of understanding that needed no concept of self. Joining DSG has been the best thing that ever happened to me. Some people have been less delighted and, even after forming strong friendships here, have felt compelled to move on. There is a host of opinions among our members (including anti-Abhidhammaism) but, ideally, we aim to learn and practise the Dhamma as found in *all three* baskets of the Tipitaka *and* its ancient commentaries. ----------------- B: > You are referring to conditional relations in which mental states come about through causes and conditions without any need for the actions of a self. I'm familiar with the model. I guess I'm more interested in experiencing what the model refers to rather than dissecting the very structure and make up of the model. > ---------------- I agree the Abhidhamma does provide a model, but it is also the real thing. I notice from your other posts that you are not convinced of the ultimate reality of citta, cetasika, rupa [and even Nibbana if I understand you correctly]. But the Buddha taught them as absolute realities. That was the point of the sutta you quoted (Sabba Sutta): the Buddha was describing all that really exists. ---------------- B: > This is why my arguments seem to lean in the direction of practice rather than intellection or debate. I admit I have a great deal of opinions about what constitutes skillfull practice. If there indeed is a way to the ending of suffering through studying and recollecting on the terms and categories of the Abhidhamma, I hope by joining DSG, that path will soon become clear to me. > ----------------- Some people jokingly refer to DSG as "study, study, study," and as a beginner, I make the mistake of agreeing with them. But then I am reminded to practise what I have learnt: In this present moment, there is the opportunity for right understanding (satipatthana). Conditions might allow for only a low, elementary level of right understanding, but it is desperately important that it should arise -- now! ---------------- B: > The ending of effluents does indeed require a great deal of concentration, however not necessarily the level of concentration that would qualify as jhana. Thank you again for the clarification. ------------------ My Pleasure; however, I have not finished the point I was making: Great concentration is required, but it is not developed by a self of any kind. If you are thinking of developing concentration in a way followed by uninstructed worldlings then stop, you are going the wrong way. ------------------- > B: Again, you are refering to concentration as a mental factor. I am talking about concentration conventionally as a developed faculty. I don't believe anyone in this group has realized paramattha dhamma and therefore limit my discussion to conceptual truths. If our vocabulary is out of synch, it is only because I am unfamiliar with the definitions and terms in the Abhidhamma. Thank you for correcting my understanding. > -------------------- Getting back to the Sabba Sutta: the Buddha's description of the all was of a moment of consciousness. It exists for the briefest possible time, less than a billionth of a fingersnap. In the first moment of consciousness described, there is `eye, and eye object,' that is all - there is no ear or ear object at that time. Other suttas (Loka Sutta e.g.,) flesh this out to `eye-base, eye- consciousness, eye-object, eye contact and the feeling dependent upon eye contact.' Still other suttas, and especially the Abhidhamma-pitaka, expand on `eye consciousness' to include both citta (vinnana-khandha) and the fifty sankhara-khandha cetasikas in their various potential combinations (89 in all). One of those sankhara-khandha cetasikas is concentration (samadhi). It is one of the five cetasikas that arise in all moments of consciousness. There is no other kind of concentration. Conventionally, we think there is a concentration that grows and grows as we focus intently on something, but that is an illusory concentration - it is not a part of the all. ----------------------- B: > I do have some uneasiness with the translation of panna as right understanding. Sometimes it seems as if it is being used as meaning right knowledge (of doctrine), and I don't think that is correct. The dhamma is not exclusive to intellectuals. Perhaps you could clarify this for me. ----------------------- Panna is one of the sankhara-khandha cetasikas that can arise in eye, ear, nose, tongue, body or mind consciousness if we are very lucky. Right intellectual understanding is not the kind of panna we equate with satipatthana, but I think it can be described as panna of a very weak kind. The panna of satipatthana directly knows a paramattha dhamma (nama or rupa). To begin with, it directly knows that nama is nama as distinct from rupa, or it knows that a dhamma is conditioned, subject to rise and fall etc. Well-developed panna eventually knows a dhamma as having the characteristics, anicca, dukkha and anatta. The only step beyond that is for panna to know the unconditioned dhamma, Nibbana. ----------------------- B: . . . but I feel now it deserves some attention. What is your justification for your opinion? Do you just not like the word 'meditation' --------------------------- In the texts, the word for meditation is bhavana. If bhavana is real, it has to fit into the `all.' And it does -- it fits in the definition of consciousness (any of the six kinds) in which the mental factor panna (right understanding) arises. In the case of samatha bhavana, the object of consciousness is a concept (which is not part of the all); in the case of vipassana bhavana, the object is a part of the all (any part whatsoever). --------------------------- B: > or do you really believe that the statement "There is the case where a monk -- having gone to the wilderness, to the shade of a tree, or to an empty building -- sits down folding his legs crosswise, holding his body erect and setting mindfulness to the fore" refers to something other than the activity of 'meditation' as the term is commonly understood? This is not an attack, I am just interested in your reasoning. ------------------ The above quote is part of the Dhamma and, like every part of the Dhamma, it is there to be understood. An accomplished Dhamma student knows every reality contained in the above description. Notably, there is the reality of jhana consciousness, which is mind- door consciousness with panna that has a concept (not part of the all) as its object. Even more notably, that [Satipatthana] sutta goes on to describe satipatthana, which is a moment of consciousness, with panna, that has a conditioned dhamma (part of the all) as its object. Having practised satipatthana in this way, the monk has properly understood the Sabba Sutta. In fact, he has understood every sutta because the whole of the Buddha's teaching can be summed up in one word, "satipatthana." Getting back to your question; the Satipatthana-sutta does not prescribe jhana meditation. It begins with the description of a jhana meditator who goes on to develop satipatthana. In the same way, it describes many conventional (not part of the all) activities - walking, stretching the arm, eating, talking, defecating - during which satipatthana can occur. ---------------- B: By saying concepts are not part of the all you are attempting to posit an other. All is all and any other is included in the all. I'm sure you are refering to some commentary or sutta that defines conceptual thinking as a mental state/factor/illusion that is separate from the senses and therefore not part of the all as defined above. That, IMHO, is missing the point. ----------------- No, I am not positing another. By definition, a concept is not part of the all. Remember, the all is everything that is real. Flying purple elephants are not mentioned in the Sabba Sutta because they are not part of the all. Nothing that is illusory (non-existent) is part of the all. Let alone "flying purple," even ordinary grey elephants are not real; nor are men and women, rocks and bottles: these are just concepts (ideas). Some concepts refer to paramattha dhammas, other concepts refer to concepts - only the actual paramattha dhammas themselves (the all) are real. (Note; the Access to Insight translation you gave yesterday, did say that "ideas" are part of the all - that was a big mistake, a very misleading translation.) ------------- B: Nibbana, being unconditioned, is not within the realm of experience, although the idea of it is an experience subject to the laws of conditionality. If what you say is how it is elucidated in the Abhidhamma, I must respectfully disagree with the Abhidhamma. ------------- Thanks for your honesty. Whether or not you agree with the texts you have chosen to study, the important thing is to know what they say. The Abhidhamma does describe Nibbana as a mental phenomenon -- in the sense that it can be experienced `by the mind.' Nibbana is experienced in a moment of enlightenment. Enlightenment is real and is therefore included in the Sabba Sutta. It is mind consciousness with panna, and its object, Nibbana, is described under the heading, "mental phenomena." ------------------ B: > "There is the case where the man, having crossed over, would think, 'How useful this raft has been to me! In the same way, monks, I have taught the Dhamma compared to a raft, for the purpose of crossing over, not for the purpose of holding onto. Understanding the Dhamma as taught compared to a raft, you should let go even of Dhammas, to say nothing of non-Dhammas." - MN 22 > ------------------ Yes, good quote, but I thought your point was that dhammas are not ultimately real, which would be a terrible misunderstanding. People who think dhammas (nama and rupa) are, ultimately, no more real than concepts (people, places, flying elephants) have a terrible time trying to understand the Abhidhamma. (You will notice there is no direct reference to the Abhidhamma in Access to Insight.) Getting back to that quote: the raft is laid down when the Dhamma has been followed; when a monk can say, "I have lived the good life! Done is what had to be done!" It doesn't mean dhammas are not ultimately real. Remember the Mahacattarika-sutta: "And what monks, is wrong understanding? To hold the view . . . that this world [the all] does not really exist . . .. That is wrong understanding." ------------------- B: > We are treading on dangerous ground here. This could lead into a whole conversation about whether what is contained in the present Tipitaka and commentaries is the same Dhamma referred to by the Buddha in those very texts. ------------------------------------ Dangerous ground that doesn't tempt me -- life is too short. I am content with the Dhamma that is found in those texts :-) Kind regards, Ken H 34389 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Sat Jul 3, 2004 7:37pm Subject: Re: [dsg] On the topic of Sensation, Pleasure and Pain Hi Nori, I know your message is addressed to Jon and Sarah. So forgive me for jumping in. While pain/painful feeling is painful, pleasure/pleasant feeling is not. Pleasure is pleasant. However, feeling, may it be painful feeling, pleasant feeling or neither-painful-nor-pleasant feeling, is dukkha(unsatisfactory/imperfect...) An arahant has abandoned sensual pleasure and no longer enjoy it. Instead of sensual pleasure, he or she experiences the pleasure of renunciation, the pleasure of the Unbinding/nibbana, the pleasure of seclusion, the pleasure of calm as result of concentration.[1] Metta, Victor [1] Majjhima Nikaya 66 Latukikopama Sutta The Quail Simile http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/majjhima/mn066.html "And, Udayin, there are these five strings of sensuality. Which five? Forms cognizable via the eye -- agreeable, pleasing, charming, endearing, fostering desire, enticing. Sounds cognizable via the ear... Aromas cognizable via the nose... Flavors cognizable via the tongue... Tactile sensations cognizable via the body -- agreeable, pleasing, charming, endearing, fostering desire, enticing. These are the five strings of sensuality. Now, any pleasure & happiness that arises dependent on these five strings of sensuality is called sensual pleasure, a filthy pleasure, a run-of-the-mill pleasure, an ignoble pleasure. And of this pleasure I say that it is not to be cultivated, not to be developed, not to be pursued, that it is to be feared. "Now, there is the case where a monk -- quite withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful mental qualities -- enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. With the stilling of directed thought & evaluation, he enters & remains in the second jhana: rapture & pleasure born of concentration, unification of awareness free from directed thought & evaluation -- internal assurance. With the fading of rapture, he remains in equanimity, mindful & alert, and physically sensitive of pleasure. He enters & remains in the third jhana, of which the Noble Ones declare, 'Equanimous & mindful, he has a pleasurable abiding.' With the abandoning of pleasure & pain -- as with the earlier disappearance of elation & distress -- he enters & remains in the fourth jhana: purity of equanimity & mindfulness, neither pleasure nor pain. This is called renunciation-pleasure, seclusion-pleasure, calm-pleasure, self-awakening-pleasure. And of this pleasure I say that it is to be cultivated, to be developed, to be pursued, that it is not to be feared. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "nori" wrote: > hi jon & sarah, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott > wrote: > > Sarah and I read your post this morning while enjoying the very > pleasant > > feeling of the sun on our backs sitting high in the Swiss alps, > with a > > clear view of the Matterhorn, and in my case a lovely cup of coffe > to be > > enjoyed. There was a lot of pleasant feeling going on ;-)). > > > Jon > > Sounds nice. > > I often wonder whether arahats still 'take pleasure' in sense > objects. It is written many times in the suttas that those who 'know' > realize that pleasure is pain; it is one and the same (i.e. pleasure > will ultimately and inevitably turn to pain.) This idea often makes > me cautious of 'enjoying myself'. > > On the other hand, Buddha is quoted many times in the suttas saying > something like, "How pleasent is the moonlit night..." > > I don't know what to make of these contradictions. > > > metta, > nori 34390 From: nori Date: Sat Jul 3, 2004 9:46pm Subject: Re: [dsg] On the topic of Sensation, Pleasure and Pain hi victor, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "yu_zhonghao" wrote: > Hi Nori, > > I know your message is addressed to Jon and Sarah. So forgive me > for jumping in. Its always good to hear your comments. > While pain/painful feeling is painful, pleasure/pleasant feeling is > not. Pleasure is pleasant. However, feeling, may it be painful > feeling, pleasant feeling or neither-painful-nor-pleasant feeling, > is dukkha(unsatisfactory/imperfect...) > > An arahant has abandoned sensual pleasure and no longer enjoy it. > Instead of sensual pleasure, he or she experiences the pleasure of > renunciation, the pleasure of the Unbinding/nibbana, the pleasure of > seclusion, the pleasure of calm as result of concentration.[1] > > > Metta, > Victor So then I was practicing correctly in being cautious, or by my own volition, not 'taking pleasure' in sense objects. Thank you again for pointing out this sutta. Metta, Nori PS: You might find my next post interesting. > [1] > Majjhima Nikaya 66 > Latukikopama Sutta > The Quail Simile > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/majjhima/mn066.html snip... "Now, any pleasure & happiness that arises dependent on these five strings of sensuality is called sensual pleasure, a filthy pleasure, a run-of-the-mill pleasure, an ignoble pleasure. And of this pleasure I say that it is not to be cultivated, not to be developed, not to be pursued, that it is to be feared." ...snip 34391 From: nori Date: Sat Jul 3, 2004 9:48pm Subject: Is this Jesus 'The Savior' or Gotama Buddha speaking? Hi all, I am surprised to find a striking similarity to Buddhism in this early writing which was written by Mathaias in a discussion between Jesus and Judas Thomas. To give a little history of this text for those not familiar: The Nag Hammadi Library, is a collection of thirteen ancient codices containing over fifty texts that was discovered in upper Egypt in 1945. It contains the earliest known writings of the dialogues of Jesus `The Savior'; texts once thought to have been entirely destroyed during the early Christian struggle to define "orthodoxy". Its funny how this text, a dialog with Jesus' brother, which has much more meaning to me than what I have read in the `New Testament', has been completely omitted from the `Bible'. The text in this collection I refer you to is called, The Book of Thomas the Contender, Translated by John D. Turner. I will extract parts which have a striking resemblance to Buddhism: Book of Thomas the Contender: (Jesus speaking to Thomas):"Now, since it has been said that you are my twin and true companion, examine yourself, and learn who you are, in what way you exist, and how you will come to be. Since you will be called my brother, it is not fitting that you be ignorant of yourself. And I know that you have understood, because you had already understood that I am the knowledge of the truth. So while you accompany me, although you are uncomprehending, you have (in fact) already come to know, and you will be called 'the one who knows himself'. For he who has not known himself has known nothing, but he who has known himself has at the same time already achieved knowledge about the depth of the all. So then, you, my brother Thomas, have beheld what is obscure to men, that is, what they ignorantly stumble against." Relationship to the Pali Canon: The practice of Sati-Patthana, that is, Self-Observation, is just that - to understand the self and `in what way we exist'. --- Book of Thomas the Contender: "If, now, you desire to become perfect, you shall observe these things; if not, your name is 'Ignorant', since it is impossible for an intelligent man to dwell with a fool, for the intelligent man is perfect in all wisdom. To the fool, however, the good and bad are the same - indeed the wise man will be nourished by the truth ..." Relationship to the Pali Canon: This is reminiscent of the chapter regarding association with fools in the Dhammapada and other suttas. --- Book of Thomas the Contender: "... But these visible bodies survive by devouring creatures similar to them with the result that the bodies change. Now that which changes will decay and perish, and has no hope of life from then on, since that body is bestial. So just as the body of the beasts perishes, so also will these formations perish. ..." Relationship to the Pali Canon: Buddha's doctrine of impermanence. --- Book of Thomas the Contender: "You neither realize your perdition, nor do you reflect on your circumstances, nor have you understood that you dwell in darkness and death! On the contrary, you are drunk with the fire and full of bitterness. Your mind is deranged on account of the burning that is in you,...", "... Woe to you in the grip of the powers of your body, for they will afflict you!" Relationship to the Pali Canon: Circumstances due to wrong actions and bodily passion/lust --- Book of Thomas the Contender: "... "Watch and pray that you not come to be in the flesh, but rather that you come forth from the bondage of the bitterness of this life. ...", " ... For when you come forth from the sufferings and passions of the body, you will receive rest from the good one, and you will reign with the king, you joined with him and he with you, from now on, for ever and ever, Amen." The entire writing can be read online at: http://www.gnosis.org/naghamm/bookt.html With metta, nori 34392 From: kenhowardau Date: Sat Jul 3, 2004 10:12pm Subject: Re: Talk with Rob K conclusion Hi Philip, Thank you for this excellent series with so many memorable quotes. This one, for example, illustrates the Khanda Vagga Sutta (about the tied-up dog) beautufully: "Rob K: Wherever you go, whether it's left or right, you're stuck on this post of self." The Queensland (Australian) DSG members will be meeting Robert next month if all goes according to plan. If we can report back half as well as you have, we'll be doing well. Kind regards, Ken H 34393 From: Herman Hofman Date: Sun Jul 4, 2004 4:56am Subject: RE: [dsg] Is this Jesus 'The Savior' or Gotama Buddha speaking? Hi Nori, I was recently reminded of another similarity between Jesus and Gotama. Both of their deaths were accompanied by earthquakes. Kind regards Herman >Hi all, >I am surprised to find a striking similarity to Buddhism in this >early writing which was written by Mathaias in a discussion between >Jesus and Judas Thomas. 34394 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Jul 4, 2004 7:14am Subject: Tiika Vis. XIV, 84 Tiika Vis. XIV, 84 Vis 84: (1) When a man is happy on encountering an excellent gift to be given, or recipient, etc., or some such cause for joy, and by placing right view foremost that occurs in the way beginning 'There is [merit in] giving' (M.i,288), he unhesitatingly and unurged by others performs such merit as giving, etc., then his consciousness is 'accompanied by joy', 'associated with knowledge', and 'unprompted'. (2) But when a man is happy and content in the way aforesaid, and, while placing right view foremost, yet he does it hesitantly through lack of free generosity, etc., or urged on by others, then his consciousness is of the same kind as the last but 'prompted'; for in this sense 'prompting' is a term for a prior effort exerted by himself or others. **** Recapitulation of the first two types of kusala citta: 1) accompanied by pleasant feeling, connected with wisdom, unprompted somanassa-sahagata.m ñaa.na-sampayutta.m, asa²nkhaarikam eka.m 2) accompanied by pleasant feeling, connected with wisdom, prompted somanassa-sahagata.m ñaa.na-sampayutta.m, sasa²nkhaarikam eka.m Accompanied by pleasant feeling: ****************************** Vis.: When a man is happy on encountering an excellent gift to be given, or recipient, etc., or some such cause for joy... Tiika 84: After he has explained the eight types of kusala cittas of the sense sphere, he said to begin with , in order to show now the way they are occurring. In that case, as to the expression, or recipient, etc. (aadi), he summarizes with the word the favorable factors of place, time, good friendship and so on. As to the expression, , here there are from another point of view the following factors: an abundance of confidence, purity of view, the fact of having seen the benefit of wholesome deeds, a rebirth-consciousness with pleasant feeling, eleven factors that are the foundations for the enlightenment factor of rapture, thus is the treatment of these and so on. N: Rebirth-consciousness with pleasant feeling is produced by kusala kamma with pleasant feeling. Throughout life the bhavanga-cittas are of the same type, thus, accompanied by pleasant feeling. Accompanied by wisdom. *********************** Vis.: and by placing right view foremost that occurs in the way beginning 'There is [merit in] giving' (M.i,288)... Tiika: As to the expression , not all of the nine bases of right view are referred to by the words, there is offering, etc. , and this should be seen also as the treatment of the foundation for the enlightenment factor of investigation of Dhamma. N: The Tiika refers to M. I, 288, where a person has right view of kamma and vipaka: Tiika: As to the expression, by placing (right view) foremost, this means giving precedence to it. And this has the meaning of association, with reference to precedence of what is conascent, as is said (in the Dhammapada, vs. 1,2), < Mind is the forerunner of dhammas..> N: The Dhammapada explains that mind is the chief in motivating evil and good, and that this brings bad and good results. Citta is the source of good and bad deeds. When one gives precedence to right view, right view is the forerunner, the chief, that is conascent with the kusala citta. There are many degrees of right view. One may have theoretical understanding of kamma that produces its appropriate result, but through insight there is a deeper understanding of kamma and vipaka as nama that is conditioned, that is non-self. Unprompted. ************ Vis.: ... he unhesitatingly and unurged by others performs such merit as giving, etc. Tiika: As to the expression, unhesitatingly, the performing of meritorious deeds does not exhibit any hesitation that could be due to stinginess as to fame, and so on, and in this way he explains unhindered generosity etc... N: There is avarice as to residence, gain, fame etc. Someone may not like to praise others because of stinginess. The person who does not have any stinginess, can without hesitation express his appreciation of someone else¹s kusala, which is a form of dana. Tiika: As to the expression not urged (by others), this means not prompted in any way. In this way he shows the practice of meritorious deeds with its essential properties. As to the expression, (unurged) by others, by this he explains a natural effort. N: The effort for kusala arises spontaneously, without being prompted. Tiika: As to the expression, daana and so on, this means: these are the ten meritorious deeds of generosity, morality up to the rectifying of one¹s views, or daana, siila, mental development and also the other seven kinds are here implied in this way.... For him who is endowed with the intention of what is meritorious. Prompted. ******** Vis. : But when a man is happy and content in the way aforesaid, and, while placing right view foremost, yet he does it hesitantly through lack of free generosity, etc., or urged on by others, then his consciousness is of the same kind as the last but 'prompted'; for in this sense 'prompting' is a term for a prior effort exerted by himself or others. Tiika: With a mind that looks at the gifts that are to be given with restricted generosity. By the word (through restricted generosity,) etc., he deals with lack of determination in the undertaking of morality and so on. N: There is some hesitation and indecisiveness with regard to daana, siila and the other kinds of kusala when the kusala citta is prompted. When one observes siila with the second type of kusala citta, the confidence in kusala, respect for the Buddha and metta and respect for one¹s fellowmen is not as strong as in the case of the first type of kusala citta that is unprompted. Tiika: As to the expression, of the same kind, in a similar way citta is said to be accompanied by pleasant feeling etc. N: The second type of kusala citta is similar to the first type in as far as it is accompanied by pleasant feeling and connected with wisdom. Tiika: As to the expression, for in this sense, this means: a citta which is hesitant is called connected with urging on. With reference to the word ³this², this is a word for prompting. N: The Tiika then explains the meaning of prior urging on or prompting, which should not be taken in the sense of prior in time. The Commentary to the Abhidhammattha Sangaha (p. 13) explains: This explanation indicates the difference in quality between kusala citta that arises spontaneously, without any hesitation, and kusala citta that is more hesitant, that needs prompting. There are many different degrees of kusala and they are dependent on different conditions. Confidence in the benefit of kusala has many degrees. Through satipatthana confidence in kusala develops. ***** Nina 34395 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Jul 4, 2004 7:14am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: dana and sila Dear Rob M and Philip, op 01-07-2004 03:33 schreef robmoult op rob.moult@j...: > From time to time, on DSG and in > my class, I talk of the joy I experience when doing dana, as part of > sila, or during my formal meditation but I find that it sometimes > comes across as "boasting". N: Please, Rob, help me to have more kusala citta. We are staying close to the teachings in mentioning our joy in dana or sila. It is one of the ten puññakiriya vatthus, bases of meritorious deeds to let others rejoice in your kusala, not hiding it. It may be unusual for Westerners, but when it is explained it is so simple. Not complicated. I cannot get enough of this subject, evenso of the brahmaviharas. It is so good to speak about simple advices for daily life, for the practice when we are with others. My Vis. and Tiika study leads me to all this even more. It is not preachy or boasting, why do you find yourself a hypocrite? Look, when we compare our cloths with someone else's there is already conceit, but this does not prevent us from practising what the Buddha taught, all kinds of kusala. It is good to realize how much conceit there is, and how much we take realities for self. That is why it is most helpful to develop kusala along with satipatthana. As to formal meditation, no need to refrain from writing what is not applauded to by others. Just write whatever you feel like writing. It can inspire those who disagree to consider more for themselves their own opinions. This is always a gain. It has also been my policy: to go on writing what I think is useful, even though I also was at times discouraged. Some time ago you said that you are thickskinned and it was on the tip of my tongue to say: can you teach me. Now the Brahmavihara of equanimity helps me a lot, but if you have good tips, it is always useful. I may meet difficult situations in the future, who knows? But it is better now with me, I did not mind Howard writing: Abhidhamma is theory, and anyway, he brought it carefully. No, on the contrary I welcome such remarks. They inspire me to make an extra effort to make the link to life in my study of the Vis. Tiika. To keep on pointing out the connection with daily life. Now to Philip on sila with joy! Philip, I was reflecting on your remarks about your coworkers and the bargirl. You said that you did not go to that bar, though hesitating at first. This is like the second kusala citta that is prompted, in my Tiika study just now (XIV, 84). Very useful example. But when confidence is stronger it can be the first type, spontaneous. With joy. I would like to encourage those who are downhearted about their own akusala. Take the example of the miserable bar girl. She is born a human being, result of kusala kamma. People should have respect for a fellow human being, not see her as an object of desire, should even help her to have kusala citta. Metta is the footing of the world. Respect for our Teacher, respect for our fellow human beings, and the Brahma viharas, those help much for observing sila with joy, with a natural effort, without the need of teeth gritting. And with satipatthana the doors are guarded without the need to force oneself. Philip, you mentioned that Rob K said:< nothing is more important than Dhamma - even if it were to cost me my marriage!> The Buddha gave excellent councils for laymen, for girls who would get married etc. The Brahmaviharas to be applied in marriage, that is the answer. You wrote: < When you answered "I do" did you mean always, or most of the time, or at times? Are you being very modest? I can see that it is best to be modest, but I would be encouraged if I read, for example, that you see kusala and akusala as not-self quite often! > In theory I understand that they are not self, but in the practice? I know that I have the underlying tendency and that self feeling about my akusala, my kusala, even when I do not expressively think in that way. I am a beginner, no stages of insight. What else would I expect. but this is not discouraging, I just trod on. It is important to be very honest with oneself. Ph: < Are there any recordings of K Sujin talking together with DSG members or other people in English?> I tried out a tape, but I found there were many blanks and the tape quality was not good. Most of mine are mixed English and Thai. I cannot do much now. I cannot answer all mails now, I give priority to my Tiika texts. Nina. 34396 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Jul 4, 2004 7:14am Subject: Re: [dsg] temperaments. Dear Rob M, op 01-07-2004 15:25 schreef robmoult op rob.moult@j...: > By understanding our own caritas (one may have a > combination of caritas), we can select appropriate meditation > objects. N: We spoke about this in Bgk, A. Sujin said that it is impossible to know one's temperament without satipatthana, without the citta that appears now. Num wrote a very good post quoting the Guide, Netti, p. 247, years ago. It amounted to it that we have all defilements, all full of lobha, dosa and moha. He was reading it and laughing because of the repetitions that we have all in full. Nina. 34397 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Jul 4, 2004 7:14am Subject: Tiika Vis. XIV, 84, Pali/English Pali/English: Vis 84. yadaa hi deyyadhammapa.tiggaahakaadisampatti.m a~n~na.m vaa somanassahetu.m aagamma ha.t.thapaha.t.tho ``atthi dinna''ntiaadinayappavatta.m (ma0 ni0 1.441) sammaadi.t.thi.m purakkhatvaa asa.msiidanto anussaahito parehi daanaadiini pu~n~naani karoti, tadaassa somanassasahagata.m ~naa.nasampayutta.m citta.m asa"nkhaara.m hoti. yadaa pana vuttanayena ha.t.thatu.t.tho sammaadi.t.thi.m purakkhatvaa amuttacaagataadivasena sa.msiidamaano vaa parehi vaa ussaahito karoti, tadaassa tadeva citta.m sasa"nkhaara.m hoti. imasmi~nhi atthe sa"nkhaaroti eta.m attano vaa paresa.m vaa vasena pavattassa pubbapayogassaadhivacana.m. Tiika 84: Accompanied by pleasant feeling ************************** Eva.m a.t.tha kaamaavacarakusalacittaani uddisitvaa idaani tesa.m pavatti-aakaara.m dassetu.m ³yadaa hii²ti-aadi aaraddha.m. After he has explained the eight types of kusala cittas of the sense sphere, he said to begin with , in order to show now the way they are occurring. Tattha pa.tiggaahakaadisampattinti ettha aadi-saddena desakaalakalyaa.namittaadisampatti.m sa"nga.nhaati. In that case, as to the expression, or recipient, etc. (aadi), he summarizes with the word the favorable factors of place, time, good friendship and so on. A~n~na.m vaa somanassahetunti ettha a~n~naggaha.nena saddhaabahulataa, As to the expression, , here there are from another point of view the following factors: an abundance of confidence, visuddhadi.t.thitaa, kusalakiriyaaya aanisa.msadassaavitaa, purity of view, the fact of having seen the benefit of wholesome deeds, somanassapa.tisandhikataa, ekaadasa piitisambojjha"nga.t.thaaniyaa dhammaati evamaadiina.m sa"ngaho. a rebirth-consciousness with pleasant feeling, eleven factors that are the foundations for the enlightenment factor of rapture, thus is the treatment of these and so on. Accompanied by wisdom. Tiika: Aadinayappavattanti ettha aadi-saddena na kevala.m ³atthi yi.t.than²ti-aadiina.m (ma. ni. 1.441; 2.95) navanna.myeva sammaadi.t.thivatthuuna.m gaha.na.m, As to the expression , not all of the nine bases of right view are referred to by the words, there is offering, etc. , atha kho dhammavicayasambojjha"nga.t.thaaniyaadiinampi sa"ngaho veditabbo. and this should be seen also as the treatment of the foundation for the enlightenment factor of investigation of Dhamma. Purakkhatvaati pubba"ngama.m katvaa. As to the expression, by placing (right view) foremost, this means giving precedence to it. Ta~nca kho sahajaatapubba"ngamavasena ³manopubba"ngamaa dhammaa²ti-aadiisu (dha. pa. 1-2) viya sampayogassa adhippetattaa. And this has the meaning of association, with reference to precedence of what is conascent, as is said (in the Dhammapada, vs. 1,2), < Mind is the forerunner of dhammas..> Unprompted. ************ Asa.msiidantoti silokamacchariyaadivasena pu~n~nakiriyaaya.m sa.msiida.m sa"nkoca.m anaapajjanto, tena muttacaagataadi.m dasseti. As to the expression, unhesitatingly, the performing of meritorious deeds does not exhibit any hesitation that could be due to stinginess as to fame, and so on, and in this way he explains unhindered generosity etc... Anussaahitoti kenacipi na ussaahito. As to the expression not urged (by others), this means not prompted in any way. Sarasato hi pu~n~napa.tipattidassanamida.m. In this way he shows the practice of meritorious deeds with its essential properties. Parehiiti pana paaka.tussaahanadassana.m. As to the expression, (unurged) by others, by this he explains a natural effort. Daanaadiiniiti daana.m siila.m yaava di.t.thijukammanti imaani daanaadiini dasa pu~n~naani, As to the expression, daana and so on, this means: these are the ten meritorious deeds of generosity, morality up to the rectifying of one¹s views, daanaadiiniiti vaa daanasiilabhaavanaamayaani itaresampi sattanna.m etthevantogadhattaa. or daana, siila, mental development and also the other seven kinds are here implied in this way.... Assa pu~n~nacetanaasama"ngino. For him who is endowed with the intention of what is meritorious. Prompted. ******** Amuttacaagataa deyyadhamme saapekkhacittataa. With a mind that looks at the gifts that are to be given with restricted generosity. Aadi-saddena siilasamaadaanaadiisu anadhimuttataadi.m sa"nga.nhaati. By the word (through restricted generosity,) etc., he deals with lack of determination in the undertaking of morality and so on. Tadevaati somanassasahagataadinaa sadisataaya vutta.m... As to the expression, of the same kind, in a similar way citta is said to be accompanied by pleasant feeling etc. Imasmi~nhi attheti liinassa cittassa ussaahanapayogasa"nkhaate atthe. As to the expression, for in this sense, this means: a citta which is hesitant is called connected with urging on. Etanti ³sa"nkhaaro²ti eta.m pada.m... With reference to the word ³this², this is a word for prompting... **** Nina. 34398 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Jul 4, 2004 7:14am Subject: dialogue about kusala. Dialogue about kusala with Lodewijk. I had typed out my Intro to Tiika Vis. XIV, 83 and the Wheel sutta I discussed with Lodewijk. He was surprised and impressed by the texts. He also finds that strong confidence in the Triple Gem is a cause of joy. We read that one of the wheels in the Wheel sutta is: to be well established in the right course. He said that one should pay attention to this from morning to evening. He said that he learns more now about all the conditions for kusala, and he finds it important that there are indeed conditions for the development of kusala. Kusala does not arise without the appropriate conditions. There is a concurrence of many conditions for its arising. Right reflection is one of the conditions. We should reflect in the right way about our kusala and akusala: they arise because of accumulated conditions and do not belong to us. We should not waste any opportunity for kusala, and especially kusala citta with paññaa. The realization of the truth is as difficult as stringing pearls in the dark by a lightning flash! The Expositor speaks about being well trained by constant practice of good as a condition for the arising of kusala citta. One of the conditions is also reading a sutta that instills confidence. Lodewijk read a sutta that impressed him very much: Gradual Sayings Book of the Ones, no 1: He also read no 10: Lodewijk finds that this instills confidence and that one should read this sutta every day. Nina. 34399 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Jul 4, 2004 8:15am Subject: Re: [dsg] On the topic of Sensation, Pleasure and Pain Hi, Nori --- nori wrote: > hi jon & sarah, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott > wrote: > > Sarah and I read your post this morning while enjoying the very > pleasant > > feeling of the sun on our backs sitting high in the Swiss alps, > with a > > clear view of the Matterhorn, and in my case a lovely cup of coffe > to be > > enjoyed. There was a lot of pleasant feeling going on ;-)). > > > Jon > > Sounds nice. > > I often wonder whether arahats still 'take pleasure' in sense > objects. It is written many times in the suttas that those who 'know' > realize that pleasure is pain; it is one and the same (i.e. pleasure > will ultimately and inevitably turn to pain.) This idea often makes > me cautious of 'enjoying myself'. > > On the other hand, Buddha is quoted many times in the suttas saying > something like, "How pleasent is the moonlit night..." > > I don't know what to make of these contradictions. > > > metta, > nori A good point to raise. The objects experienced through the sense-doors (eye-door, body-door, etc) are intrinsically pleasant or unpleasant, depending on whether they are result of kusala kamma or akusala kamma, and this applies for everyone (ordinary person or arahant). Thus a pleasant night is a pleasant experience for all who are experiencing those particular sense-door objects (mainly through body and eye doors, I suppose). For the ordinary person such as ourselves, sense-door experiences are usually followed by akusala of one kind or another (pleasant object by attachment, unpleasant object by aversion). In the case of the arahant, however, since all latent tendencies to akusala have been eradicated, no akusala arises. 'Enjoying oneself' is of course akusala, but then akusala is the nature of the unenlightened being. The path taught by the Buddha is the developement of insight into the true nature of dhammas; it is this that leads to more kusala and less akusala in our lives. In other words, whatever the occasion (attachment to the pleasant feeling of the sun on our back, for example) the path remains the same: awareness of a presnetly arising dhamma. Jon