34400 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Jul 4, 2004 8:27am Subject: Re: [dsg] On the topic of Sensation, Pleasure and Pain Hi, Howard --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Jon (and Nori) - > ... > ============================ > Just to relate this matter to the recent conversation between > Larry > and me on vedana, I do agree with what you say here, Jon. All contact, > mental as > well as physical, results in vedana. What I conjecture is that the > vedana > *directly* resulting from from mental, auditory, and visual contact is > always > neutral, but in a few steps there can be indirectly generated body-door > contact > with associated pleasant or unpleasant vedana. Thus, pleasant or > unpleasant > mind-door, eye-door, and ear-door vedana is actually directly associated > with > body-door contact resulting from the original mind-door, eye-door, or > ear-door > contact. Indirectly, however, it is still appropriate to refer to that > vedana as > mind-door, eye-door, or ear-door, as that was the original point of > genesis. > I do believe that body-door contact always mediates pleasant and > unpleasant > vedana. Of course, this belief is not something I'm "invested" in. It > just seems > right to me. If I'm wrong in this belief, well, so be it! ;-) > > With metta, > Howard An interesting theory ;-)), but what are it's practical implications, as you see them? Jon 34401 From: Date: Sun Jul 4, 2004 4:52am Subject: Re: [dsg] On the topic of Sensation, Pleasure and Pain Hi, Jon - In a message dated 7/4/04 11:28:25 AM Eastern Daylight Time, jonoabb@y... writes: > Hi, Howard > > --- upasaka@a... wrote: >Hi, Jon (and Nori) - > > > ... > >============================ > > Just to relate this matter to the recent conversation between > >Larry > >and me on vedana, I do agree with what you say here, Jon. All contact, > >mental as > >well as physical, results in vedana. What I conjecture is that the > >vedana > >*directly* resulting from from mental, auditory, and visual contact is > >always > >neutral, but in a few steps there can be indirectly generated body-door > >contact > >with associated pleasant or unpleasant vedana. Thus, pleasant or > >unpleasant > >mind-door, eye-door, and ear-door vedana is actually directly associated > >with > >body-door contact resulting from the original mind-door, eye-door, or > >ear-door > >contact. Indirectly, however, it is still appropriate to refer to that > >vedana as > >mind-door, eye-door, or ear-door, as that was the original point of > >genesis. > >I do believe that body-door contact always mediates pleasant and > >unpleasant > >vedana. Of course, this belief is not something I'm "invested" in. It > >just seems > >right to me. If I'm wrong in this belief, well, so be it! ;-) > > > >With metta, > >Howard > > An interesting theory ;-)), but what are it's practical implications, as > you see them? ---------------------------------------------------- Howard: That's a very good question, Jon, one which I think we should always ask with regard to any theory, whether our own, or of commentators, or even as presented in Abhidhamma or Sutta. The Dhamma is a very practical matter, very pragmatic. One implication of this theory, should it be valid, is the importance, I think, of mindfulness of the body (and bodily sensation), an activity greatly emphasized by the Buddha and by many meditation teachers. If the theory is correct, close attention to bodily sensation places the mind right at a critical juncture point, a point at which arise pleasantness and unpleasantness, the feelings that lead to craving and aversion. ------------------------------------------------- > > Jon > ======================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 34402 From: Date: Sun Jul 4, 2004 5:12pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism.XIV 84 Hi Nina, Welcome back. I'm in a bit of a muddle on exactly what feeling is. If I look at my own experience it seems that feeling is always bodily feeling, at least the pleasant and unpleasant kind. This bodily feeling seems to be both nama and rupa inseparable. When pleasant feeling arises with a consciousness of generosity I feel this feeling in my body. That can't be right. What is going on here? Larry 34403 From: Philip Date: Sun Jul 4, 2004 5:30pm Subject: Patterns of papanca on dosa-arousing objects Hello all Please allow me to ramble a bit on the topic of papanca, which is still interesting me as I begin to learn about it. Hopefully some questions will arise. I was sitting outside a building on a busy street yesterday, waiting for Naomi, and found myself watching the people passing by with an increased awareness of what was going on in my mind. I saw how quickly my mind leaped out to see the visible object, label it and formed a judgement on it. (We know from the Honeyball Sutta and elsewhere in the Dhamma that feeling comes before perception, but I haven't figured that out yet. It seemed to me yesterday that I was labelling, and then having a feeling based on that perception. ) I really sensed how the thought process, and the papanca happened in a wink of an eye. I thought of the image of a frog's tongue flicking out quickly to capture something to label and consume, and then retreat. It was very interesting. And I could sense no way of stopping it except by looking at the ground, which I decided not to do. This followed on other musings about the thought process, and how papanca seems to follow tracks that have been laid down before. I was thinking about cockroaches. We see one, and the mind leaps out to perceive/label it, have an averse feeling (or have an averse feeling and perceive the object, correctly speaking) and based on that papancize some of us feel invaded and outraged and the killing ensues in a flash. If we live in a country where cockroaches are common, we have been through this so often that the papanca seems to happen automatically in a conditioned way. There is no gap in which wisdom can arise and lead us to do otherwise. But what if it is an insect that we are familiar with and perhaps feel averse to but have never seen in our kitchen before? What if it is a slug? We perceive it, and have an averse feeling, perhaps, but not as strong as with the cockroach, and then there is papanca, and maybe we don't feel as invaded or insulted, and then perhaps we don't "become a victim of (one's) pattern of thinking", as an introduction to the Honeyball Sutta by Thanissaro Bhikkhu ( I think) puts it. The slug is spared and placed on a branch outside, and we are spared that bad deed of killing and only have a bit of conceit instead. Papanca towards an insect in the kitchen has taken a more wholesome route. There was a gap in which wholesomeness could arise because the context of the contact was unfamiliar. And what if it's a shiny blue insect with yellow feelers and a big green nose that we have never seen before? The response will be an even fresher one. I mention cockroaches because I noticed that I haven't been killing them recently. I had read often enough about the precept about killing but always made a convenient exception for cockroaches and mosquitoes. (Still will for the latter, I'm afraid.) Now, something has happened in my thought process that allows a gap between the contact and the killing, which used to happen so quickly. I hadn't been thinking about not killing cockroaches. But I stopped doing it. After I realized I had stopped doing it I examined my papanca pattern about cockroaches and now saw that they don't bite me or Naomi and they don't really do anything so harmful. If you look closely, they aren't even particularly repulsive, with those cute feelers waving in the air. But this new way of papancizing on them came after not killing them, not before. So I don't know what happened to cause that new response of not killing them. Let me tell you about the rat-like dogs. Earlier this year, taking a walk in a nearby park, I realized with what aversion I react to people who have small, cute dogs with ribbons in their fur and maybe a little vest. They are not all rat-like actually, but I had always called them that. And resented the lavish attention their owners poured on them. Some kind of envy? Who knows? But walking that day I questioned my aversion, and the next day when I meditated/contemplated on the Brahma-Viharas, I designated these dogs as a source of aversion that I would "work on." This is a practice I had earlier this year, which I have since abandoned. So I contempatled these dogs and their owners in a friendly way. The next day when I saw them, a friendly feeling arose immediately. I had transformed that dosa in an intentional way. Or so it seemed to me then. Yesterday when I walked in the park for the first time in a couple of months, I came across the dogs, but my old aversion leaped up at first. A moment later, the more friendly papanca that I had intentionally conditioned arose on its own and kind of nudged the unfriendly one away. So the old pattern of thinking arose first, and then the latter one, (which hadn't become engrained enough to take precedence?) So I am seeing these thought processes as quick bursts of mental activity in which papanca always ensues, extending my stay in samsara. I can see that it is not skillful to try to reprogram these thought patterns as I did with the little dogs...or is it? Well, it's not possible in a lasting way. I think of teaching English as a Second Language. There is this notion of "fossilized language." People who have learned a language for awhile have developped grammatical patterns that cannot be corrected (if they are incorrect) because they have become fossilized and can't be eradicated - not in the short run, anyway. Trying to impose new patterns over the incorrect ones is a futile enterprise. Maybe something similar to that goes on when we try to "correct" our papanca. Well, enough rambling. Thanks for your time and any corrective comments. My wrong views on papanca aren't fossilized yet, hopefully. Metta, Phil 34404 From: Philip Date: Sun Jul 4, 2004 5:50pm Subject: Re: Talk with Rob K conclusion Hi Ken Thanks for your kind words. Looking forward to hearing about your next meeting. I know it's foolish to hope for things we can't control, but I must admit I'm hoping that Rob's DSG sabbatical will be over soon. :) Metta, Phil --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > Hi Philip, > > Thank you for this excellent series with so many memorable quotes. > This one, for example, illustrates the Khanda Vagga Sutta (about the > tied-up dog) beautufully: > "Rob K: Wherever you go, whether it's left or right, you're stuck on > this post of self." > > The Queensland (Australian) DSG members will be meeting Robert next > month if all goes according to plan. If we can report back half as > well as you have, we'll be doing well. > > Kind regards, > Ken H 34405 From: Philip Date: Sun Jul 4, 2004 6:14pm Subject: Re: some caution and non-advice Hi Victor, Herman and all V:> For reading the discourses, I think you might be interested in the > suggestions in the following article: > Befriending the Suttas > Some Suggestions for Reading > the Pali Discourses > by > John Bullitt > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/sutta101.html Ph: Thanks for yet more helpful links. Thay have increased my confidence about approaching suttas without getting caught up in conceit and self-view. (See, when I read a sutta now, there is always a strong awareness of "I'm getting wisdom here" as though it were something I could gather like acorns.) Ph:> It still feels sensible to me, > > and I have a keen interest in it, and keen interest should not be > > discouraged unless it is leading one into wrong view. > > > > V:> There is nothing wrong with pursuing a study in a subject, say, > psychology or physics. By pursuing a study in psychology, one gains > knowledge about human mind. By pursuing a study in physics, one > gains knowledge about matter and energy. Ph: Here as in a previous msg you seem to equate studying Abhidhamma with studying science though it is the Buddha's teaching, one of the the divisions of the Tipitaka. Have I misread you? I suppose there is some doubt in the community about the authenticity of the Abhidhamma. An familiar can of worms at DSG, I'm sure. Herman, hello. I'm still not convinced that the craving for nicotine, not matter how powerful and difficult to eradicate, can be compared to clinging to the khandas. The latter seems more subtle to me and would require more theoretical investigation at the beginning than kicking the cancer stick. No matter how powerful the craving to smoke, the smoker knows what needs to be done, exactly what needs to be done, eventually. He can say "I need to stop smoking!" and know then and there that if he can do that he will be done with smoking. Yes, he will find ways to fool himself, but he will still know what needs to be done eventually. There is a clear solution, no matter how difficult it is. In samsara, can we say "I need to stop clinging to the khandas!" and know what that means clearly without studying first? I don't think so, and I would propose that looking into Abhidhamma is the best way to learn about what the "khandas" are, and this basic understanding can be confirmed and deepened when the khandas are broached in suttas, and of course, more importantly, by examining our experience in the moment. But I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on that one! And yes, it's true that I've never been addicted to nicotine, so can't really say... Anyways, thanks for the sutta. I'm appreciating your messages. Metta, Phil 34406 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Sun Jul 4, 2004 7:25pm Subject: Re: some caution and non-advice Hi Phil and all, I am saying that psychology is the science of the mind and with a pursuit of a study in psychology one can gains knowledge about the mind. Regarding khandha/aggregates, I think you might be interested in the following discourse: Samyutta Nikaya XXII.48 Khandha Sutta Aggregates http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn22-048.html Metta, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Philip" wrote: > > Hi Victor, Herman and all > > V:> For reading the discourses, I think you might be interested in > the > > suggestions in the following article: > > Befriending the Suttas > > Some Suggestions for Reading > > the Pali Discourses > > by > > John Bullitt > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/sutta101.html > > Ph: Thanks for yet more helpful links. Thay have increased my > confidence about approaching suttas without getting caught up in > conceit and self-view. (See, when I read a sutta now, there is always > a strong awareness of "I'm getting wisdom here" as though it were > something I could gather like acorns.) > > Ph:> It still feels sensible to me, > > > and I have a keen interest in it, and keen interest should not be > > > discouraged unless it is leading one into wrong view. > > > > > > > > > V:> There is nothing wrong with pursuing a study in a subject, say, > > psychology or physics. By pursuing a study in psychology, one > gains > > knowledge about human mind. By pursuing a study in physics, one > > gains knowledge about matter and energy. > > Ph: Here as in a previous msg you seem to equate studying > Abhidhamma with studying science though it is the Buddha's teaching, > one of the the divisions of the Tipitaka. Have I misread you? I > suppose there is some doubt in the community about the authenticity > of the Abhidhamma. An familiar can of worms at DSG, I'm sure. > > > Herman, hello. I'm still not convinced that the craving for > nicotine, not matter how powerful and difficult to eradicate, can be > compared to clinging to the khandas. The latter seems more subtle to > me and would require more theoretical investigation at the beginning > than kicking the cancer stick. No matter how powerful the craving to > smoke, the smoker knows what needs to be done, exactly what needs to > be done, eventually. He can say "I need to stop smoking!" and know > then and there that if he can do that he will be done with smoking. > Yes, he will find ways to fool himself, but he will still know what > needs to be done eventually. There is a clear solution, no matter how > difficult it is. In samsara, can we say "I need to stop clinging to > the khandas!" and know what that means clearly without studying > first? I don't think so, and I would propose that looking into > Abhidhamma is the best way to learn about what the "khandas" are, and > this basic understanding can be confirmed and deepened when the > khandas are broached in suttas, and of course, more importantly, by > examining our experience in the moment. > > But I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on that one! And yes, > it's true that I've never been addicted to nicotine, so can't really > say... > Anyways, thanks for the sutta. I'm appreciating your messages. > > Metta, > Phil 34407 From: robmoult Date: Sun Jul 4, 2004 7:59pm Subject: New File Uploaded - Attention: lurkers Hi All, I intend to publish a book, tentatively titled, "Abhidhamma - The Theory Behind the Buddha's Smile". I have loaded a 1st draft (there are still a few holes) into the Files section of DSG. There are many lurkers out there who have an interest in the Abhidhamma. I am particularly intrested in your input / feedback as the target audience for this book is not Abhidhamma scholars, but rather those who have a sincere desire to better understand the Abhidhamma with non-excessive usage of Pali or lists. Phil has agreed to help me improve the writing style and Christine has suggested that it be discussed at an upcoming Cooran weekend. I am looking forward to feedback from all of you. Not just on accuracy, but on presentation of the information, examples that might be included to illustrate points, areas that you feel were given too much or too little emphasis, confusing sections, etc.. Please do not send any feedback now as I will not be able to reply. I am scrambling to tie up some loose ends before I go on vacation in Europe for most of August. Please keep a record of your comments and then post (or email) them at the end of August. Metta, Rob M :-) 34408 From: robmoult Date: Sun Jul 4, 2004 9:37pm Subject: [dsg] Re: dana and sila Nina / Phil, This message really touched my heart. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > Dear Rob M and Philip, > op 01-07-2004 03:33 schreef robmoult op rob.moult@j...: > > > From time to time, on DSG and in > > my class, I talk of the joy I experience when doing dana, as part of > > sila, or during my formal meditation but I find that it sometimes > > comes across as "boasting". > N: Please, Rob, help me to have more kusala citta. We are staying close to > the teachings in mentioning our joy in dana or sila. It is one of the ten > puññakiriya vatthus, bases of meritorious deeds to let others rejoice in > your kusala, not hiding it. It may be unusual for Westerners, but when it is > explained it is so simple. Not complicated. I cannot get enough of this > subject, evenso of the brahmaviharas. It is so good to speak about simple > advices for daily life, for the practice when we are with others. My Vis. > and Tiika study leads me to all this even more. It is not preachy or > boasting, why do you find yourself a hypocrite? Look, when we compare our > cloths with someone else's there is already conceit, but this does not > prevent us from practising what the Buddha taught, all kinds of kusala. It > is good to realize how much conceit there is, and how much we take realities > for self. That is why it is most helpful to develop kusala along with > satipatthana. > As to formal meditation, no need to refrain from writing what is not > applauded to by others. Just write whatever you feel like writing. It can > inspire those who disagree to consider more for themselves their own > opinions. This is always a gain. It has also been my policy: to go on > writing what I think is useful, even though I also was at times discouraged. > Some time ago you said that you are thickskinned and it was on the tip of my > tongue to say: can you teach me. Now the Brahmavihara of equanimity helps me > a lot, but if you have good tips, it is always useful. I may meet difficult > situations in the future, who knows? But it is better now with me, I did not > mind Howard writing: Abhidhamma is theory, and anyway, he brought it > carefully. No, on the contrary I welcome such remarks. They inspire me to > make an extra effort to make the link to life in my study of the Vis. Tiika. > To keep on pointing out the connection with daily life. I am also inspired by Phil's on-line musings showing the connection between the Dhamma / Abhidhamma and daily life. I can use them as a model on how to present my experiences without giving a wrong impression. Thank you... thank you so much.... With great appreciation... Metta, Rob M :-) 34409 From: Ken O Date: Sun Jul 4, 2004 9:48pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: hello Hi Gislene It provide a good start but not a website I would recommend for reading good translation of the suttas. You may wish to read B Bodhi translation which unfortunately have to buy from the shelf due to copyright. Thats all Ken O 34410 From: buddhatrue Date: Mon Jul 5, 2004 3:32am Subject: To Rob M- Brain Research and Zen Masters Friend Rob M, I don't know if you remember the discussion we had long ago about meditation and brain research, but I came across a piece of pertinent information. Previously, I had mentioned brain research on Zen Masters and it was suggested by a former member that no such research had ever been conducted on Zen Masters, only Tibetan Monks. You also suggested that you had mistakenly mentioned Zen Masters in one of your posts and so that must have given me the false idea about brain research and Zen Masters. However, it seems that I did remember the research correctly. It is referred to in this article: In 1963 a fascinating and unique report on Zen meditation was presented by Dr. Akira Kasamatsu and Dr. Tomio Hirai of the Department of Neuro-Psychiatry, Tokyo University. It contained the results of a ten-year study of the brain wave or electroencephalographic (EEG) tracings of Zen masters.[66,67] The EEG tracings revealed that about ninety seconds after an accomplished Zen practitioner begins meditation, a rhythmic slowing in the brain wave pattern known as alpha waves occurs. This slowing occurs with eyes open and progresses with meditation, and after thirty minutes one finds rhythmic alpha waves of seven or eight per second. This effect persists for some minutes after meditation. What is most significant is that this EEG pattern is notably different from those of sleep, normal waking consciousness, and hypnotic trance, and is unusual in persons who have not made considerable progress in meditation. In other words, it suggests an unusual mental state; though from the subjective reports of the practitioners, it does not appear to be a unique or highly unusual conscious experience. It was also found that a Zen master's evaluation of the amount of progress another practitioner had made correlated directly with the latter's EEG changes. Another finding of the same study concerned what is called alpha blocking and habituation. To understand these phenomena let us imagine that a person who is reading quietly is suddenly interrupted by a loud noise. For a few seconds his attention is diverted from the reading to the noise. If the same sound is then repeated a few seconds later his attention will again be diverted, only not as strongly nor for as long a time. If the sound is then repeated at regular intervals, the person will continue reading and become oblivious to the sound. A normal subject with closed eyes produces alpha waves on an EEG tracing. An auditory stimulation, such as a loud noise, normally obliterates alpha waves for seven seconds or more; this is termed alpha blocking. In a Zen master the alpha blocking produced by the first noise lasts only two seconds. If the noise is repeated at 15 second intervals, we find that in the normal subject there is virtually no alpha blocking remaining by the fifth successive noise. This diminution of alpha blocking is termed habituation and persists in normal subjects for as long as the noise continues at regular and frequent intervals. In the Zen master, however, no habituation is seen. His alpha blocking lasts two seconds with the first sound, two seconds with the fifth sound, and two seconds with the twentieth sound. This implies that the Zen master has a greater awareness of his environment as the paradoxical result of meditative concentration. One master described such a state of mind as that of noticing every person he sees on the street but of not looking back with emotional lingering. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/wheels/wheel088.html#other Metta, James 34411 From: Dhammaasoka Date: Mon Jul 5, 2004 4:39am Subject: Need clarification on a few subjects Dear all, Need your help again this time. I am folowing a nikaya sutta class leads by a reverend near my place. There are a few comments that he made surprise me in the sense that the comments are quite different with what I have studied and heard. I would like to hear your comments about them. I hope you all won't mind for the trouble. 1. Firstly, do we discerning the anicca lakhana when we are in Jhana? 2. What does sampajjano actually mean? Is it just knowing the object or with discernment on anicca? 3. Is the samatha and vipassana actually go together and can't be single out during our practice in satipatthana? (Without any magga or phala-citta) 4. The 11 ways of discerning the dhamma (pass, current, future, far, near... etc.) mentioned in suttas is for the purpose of understanding that the dhamma is always the same in every aspect and not meant for real discernment? 5. When Buddha mentioned that discern internally, discern externally, discern internally and externally in the Maha Satipatthana sutta, does He means discerning the six door as internally and the six respective object as externally and their relationship or process and internally and externally, or, does Buddha refer internally to ourselves and externally to others? 6. When Buddha said discerning the body as body, feeling as feeling ...etc, do we discern the body, feeling, cittas and dhamma through feeling? As the reverend said, through feeling that we feel the existence of the body, through the feeling we notice the state of mind and the dhamma as well. Is it the way interpreting the sutta? The reverend only accept words from Nikayas and not other than that. :) Need your maha karuna to help me to clear doubts. (Actually these are doubts arose in my friends as well) With metta, Lee 34412 From: Date: Mon Jul 5, 2004 1:37am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: dana and sila Hi, Rob (and Nina, and Phil) - In a message dated 7/5/04 1:25:55 AM Eastern Daylight Time, rob.moult@j... writes: > Nina / Phil, > > This message really touched my heart. > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom > wrote: > >Dear Rob M and Philip, > >op 01-07-2004 03:33 schreef robmoult op rob.moult@j...: > > > >>From time to time, on DSG and in > >>my class, I talk of the joy I experience when doing dana, as part > of > >>sila, or during my formal meditation but I find that it sometimes > >>comes across as "boasting". > >N: Please, Rob, help me to have more kusala citta. We are staying > close to > >the teachings in mentioning our joy in dana or sila. It is one of > the ten > >puññakiriya vatthus, bases of meritorious deeds to let others > rejoice in > >your kusala, not hiding it. It may be unusual for Westerners, but > when it is > >explained it is so simple. Not complicated. I cannot get enough of > this > >subject, evenso of the brahmaviharas. It is so good to speak about > simple > >advices for daily life, for the practice when we are with others. > My Vis. > >and Tiika study leads me to all this even more. It is not preachy or > >boasting, why do you find yourself a hypocrite? Look, when we > compare our > >cloths with someone else's there is already conceit, but this does > not > >prevent us from practising what the Buddha taught, all kinds of > kusala. It > >is good to realize how much conceit there is, and how much we take > realities > >for self. That is why it is most helpful to develop kusala along > with > >satipatthana. > >As to formal meditation, no need to refrain from writing what is not > >applauded to by others. Just write whatever you feel like writing. > It can > >inspire those who disagree to consider more for themselves their own > >opinions. This is always a gain. It has also been my policy: to go > on > >writing what I think is useful, even though I also was at times > discouraged. > >Some time ago you said that you are thickskinned and it was on the > tip of my > >tongue to say: can you teach me. Now the Brahmavihara of equanimity > helps me > >a lot, but if you have good tips, it is always useful. I may meet > difficult > >situations in the future, who knows? But it is better now with me, > I did not > >mind Howard writing: Abhidhamma is theory, and anyway, he brought it > >carefully. No, on the contrary I welcome such remarks. They inspire > me to > >make an extra effort to make the link to life in my study of the > Vis. Tiika. > >To keep on pointing out the connection with daily life. > > I am also inspired by Phil's on-line musings showing the connection > between the Dhamma / Abhidhamma and daily life. I can use them as a > model on how to present my experiences without giving a wrong > impression. > > Thank you... thank you so much.... With great appreciation... > > Metta, > Rob M :-) > ============================== Just to add my two cents publically, Rob: You are blessed in finding joy in dana, and, from my observation, you are so generous in your dana, which expresses itself in manifold ways including giving of yourself, your time, and your effort, as well as monetarily, that you bring great joy to others. You provide to others the joy of receiving dana so selflessly and naturally given, and you also provide the wonderful opportunity of the joy of muditaa in observing your generosity of spirit and deed. With metta, Howard P.S. Nina, I'm happy that what I wrote was well received by you. I lean much more to the suttas than to Abhidhamma, and you tend more towards the opposite. But I greatly value your teachings of applying Abhidhamma in daily life, and I admire your dedication to so generously and teaching the Dhamma, especially your providing a view of Abhidhamma that makes difficult and dry material way more understandable and consumable. /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 34413 From: Gis Lene Date: Mon Jul 5, 2004 8:32am Subject: thanks Hi Ken and all DSG. Last weekend I took the time to look for information about theravada and buddhism in Brazil and I found a very good discussion group named Nalanda. I read about that and realised I did a lot of mistakes because I was mixing Theravada with Tantra Buddhism. Sorry, I am in the first step of learning. Now I realised that are four "schools" (tantra, zen, theravada and terra pura) working in Brazil with a lot of temples. There are books translated into portuguese and others in english. So I have a lot of things to learn and pratice. What I really liked in the Theravada tradition (as it was presented in Nalanda website) it is the emphasis on the study of the holly texts plus meditation plus pratices and others. On the other hand I could not understand why the buddhism was shared into that "shools". The mains principles were the same (the Buddha`s words). For me it sounds very very good just say buddhism and try to learn and pratice the principles that are very simple but very hard to do in ordinary life, also. Being just a buddhist is hard because it involve to act up traditions and to act just with compassion. I am in the first step and a lot of thinks are difficult to understand right now but I suppose that is a very good way to live in the world where everyday people are invited to be selfish, cruel and no ethical. I think buddhism is a path against all of those thinks because it put the responsability to change in ours hands, in ours everyday commitment. I don´t believe in any kind of energy, God or Goodness who do the thinks for us; faith or philosopshy (what else) to act to remove from us the responsability to change the world, the live and act with our freedom. I suppose in buddhism the human acts and received/took it back according those actions. But today I don´t know how you can do this in differents ways in those many shools yet. So, let me study more. Many thanks for the welcomes and for the books and sites suggested. It will be very helped for me now. Gislene. >From: Ken O >Reply-To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com >To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com >Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: hello >Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2004 05:48:05 +0100 (BST) > >Hi Gislene > >It provide a good start but not a website I would recommend for >reading good translation of the suttas. You may wish to read B Bodhi >translation which unfortunately have to buy from the shelf due to >copyright. > > > > >Thats all >Ken O > > > > 34414 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Jul 5, 2004 9:12am Subject: Re: [dsg] On the topic of Sensation, Pleasure and Pain Hi, Howard --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Jon - > > In a message dated 7/4/04 11:28:25 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > jonoabb@y... writes: > > That's a very good question, Jon, one which I think we should > always > ask with regard to any theory, whether our own, or of commentators, or > even as > presented in Abhidhamma or Sutta. The Dhamma is a very practical matter, > very > pragmatic. One implication of this theory, should it be valid, is the > importance, I think, of mindfulness of the body (and bodily sensation), > an activity > greatly emphasized by the Buddha and by many meditation teachers. If the > theory > is correct, close attention to bodily sensation places the mind right at > a critical juncture point, a point at which arise pleasantness and > unpleasantness, > the feelings that lead to craving and aversion. It is made clear in the Satipatthana Sutta that there are 4 'foundations of mindfulness'. One of these is of course the body, but there is no suggestion of the body being a 'critical juncture'. In what sense do you see a moment of mindfulenss of the body as being of more value than a moment of midfulness of, say, attachmnet or aversion? Jon 34415 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Jul 5, 2004 9:23am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: some caution and non-advice Hi, Victor --- yu_zhonghao wrote: > Hi Christine and all, ... > > He also taught in the very first verse of the Dhammapada: > > "Mind is the forerunner of (all evil) states. Mind is chief; mind- > > made are they. If one speaks or acts with wicked mind, because of > > that, suffering follows one, even as the wheel follows the hoof of > > the draught-ox." > > > The verse above is about right view on kamma/intention/action. I'm not saying I disagree with this comment, but I wonder how you come to this conclusion if not by drawing certain inferences. I am of course referring back to our earlier discussion on this subject and the need for a knowledge of the texts generally in reading individual suttas. The fact is that the Dhammapada verse itself makes no reference to right view on kamma/intention/action. Actually, some of the (seemingly simple) Dhammapada verses are the most obscure in terms of suttas whose meaning needs to be drawn out. Jon 34416 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Mon Jul 5, 2004 9:52am Subject: [dsg] Re: some caution and non-advice Hi Jon and all, Thank you for this message. Metta, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Hi, Victor > > --- yu_zhonghao wrote: > > Hi Christine and all, > ... > > > He also taught in the very first verse of the Dhammapada: > > > "Mind is the forerunner of (all evil) states. Mind is chief; mind- > > > made are they. If one speaks or acts with wicked mind, because of > > > that, suffering follows one, even as the wheel follows the hoof of > > > the draught-ox." > > > > > > The verse above is about right view on kamma/intention/action. > > I'm not saying I disagree with this comment, but I wonder how you come to > this conclusion if not by drawing certain inferences. I am of course > referring back to our earlier discussion on this subject and the need for > a knowledge of the texts generally in reading individual suttas. The fact > is that the Dhammapada verse itself makes no reference to right view on > kamma/intention/action. Actually, some of the (seemingly simple) > Dhammapada verses are the most obscure in terms of suttas whose meaning > needs to be drawn out. > > Jon 34417 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Jul 5, 2004 10:19am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: contact and feeling Hi Howard, op 30-06-2004 14:21 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: Honeyball sutta:> ___________________________ > Dependent on eye & forms, eye-consciousness arises. The meeting of the three > is contact. With contact as a requisite condition, there is feeling. What one > feels, one perceives. What one perceives, one thinks about. What one thinks > about, one complicates. Based on what a person complicates, the perceptions & > categories of complication assail him/her with regard to past, present, & > future > forms cognizable via the eye. > ----------------------------------------------- >======================== Nina, I certainly agree with this, but only in a restricted sense. The "knowing" that is necessary for the liking or disliking is a (proliferated) conceptual knowing, and not mere sa~n~na. (Contact directly yields "liking or disliking" only in the sense of experiencing as pleasant or unpleasant, i.e., vedana, but not in the sense of reactive desire or aversion.) In the Honeyball Sutta, there is the following: ___________________________ Dependent on eye & forms, eye-consciousness arises. The meeting of the three is contact. With contact as a requisite condition, there is feeling. What one feels, one perceives. What one perceives, one thinks about. What one thinks about, one complicates. Based on what a person complicates, the perceptions & categories of complication assail him/her with regard to past, present, & future forms cognizable via the eye. ----------------------------------------------- Certainly in the standard scheme of dependent origination there is given the dependency phassa --> vedana --> tanha. But the Honeyball Sutta focuses more finely, I believe, on the vedana --> tanha conditioning link. I think it is important to note that it is not sa~n~na that conditions vedana, but vedana that conditions sa~n~na, and that the sa~n~na itself needs to first expand and proliferate in order for tanha to arise. The detail given there can be represented, I think, as follows: contact --> feeling --> recognition (sa~n~na) --> mulling over --> conceptual complication (papa~nca) --> craving/aversion (tanha) and clinging (upadana) with regard to things remembered, "current" things, and envisioned future things. N: This is all correct but it does not deal with the moment to moment happenings nor with the simultaneous arising of different dhammas that condition one another by conascent condition. We have to be careful when reading a sutta under what angle, what heading dhammas are explained. Contact and feeling accompany each citta and fall away with the citta. It is explained in the Visuddhimagga that contact conditions feeling by being conascent. You can check with Ledi Sayadaw. As to the Honeyball Sutta: this describes what happens in different processes of citta. As Ken H explained: there can be lobha and dosa also in sense-door processes, this is taught in Abh. and commentaries in detail. Nina. 34418 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Jul 5, 2004 10:19am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Abhidhamma Hi Howard, I wonder whether I could clarify a few points about the Abhidhamma. op 03-07-2004 13:55 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: > Moreover, it seems to me that much important teaching material of the suttas, > especially in terms of skillful means of presenation, is missing from the > Abhidhamma, and, conversely, much superfluous material irrelevant to the task > of > liberation - and some of it questionable - is included in the Abhidhamma. In > its (not fully realized) attempt at completeness, the Abhidhamma includes many > leaves of the forest that are not among the useful ones held in the Buddha's > hand. N: Here the trouble could be in missing out the relevant commentaries. The Dhammasangani should be read together with the Expositor (Atthasaalinii). Without this one may get lost. The Vibhanga, Book of Analysis, should be read together with the Dispeller of Delusion (I and II). If you have time and interest you could perhaps indicate where you find the Abh questionable or superfluous. H: Nina and her teacher, Khun Sujin, > wisely > teach not making this substitution. They emphasize "Abhidhamma in Daily Life" > which, as I understand it, uses the Abhidhamma as a guide to ongoing mindful > watching of dhammas as they arise and cease, displaying the tilakkhana that > constitute their common nature. N: is not the way A. Sujin teaches. There could be a self watching. The dhammas are elements that display their own characteristics and as you agree, nobody can direct them. Sati is not to be emphasized, but understanding. Ongoing mindfulness: difficult term. It seems unnatural. True, through insight that is developed there comes a time that sati and pañña have become powers, balava vipassana. At the first principal stage of insight: sati can arise no matter when and where. I assure you, I am far from that stage. Nina. 34419 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Jul 5, 2004 10:19am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism.XIV 84, feelings Hi Larry, op 05-07-2004 02:12 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: I'm in a bit of a muddle on exactly what feeling is. If I > look at my own experience it seems that feeling is always bodily > feeling, at least the pleasant and unpleasant kind. N: Let's start with the four jaatis: kusala, akusala, vipaka, kiriya. Four classes concerning the nature of citta and cetasikas. Bodily feeling is vipaka, it accompanies the vipakacitta that is body-consciousness. Bodyconsciousness experiences only tangible object: hardness, softness, heat, cold, motion, pressure. It only lasts for one extremely short moment. So does the accompanying feeling that can be pleasant or painful. However, this has nothing to do with like or dislike, it is only vipaka and then gone immediately. In that same process, body-door process, javanacittas (impulsion) are following, and these can be kusala cittas or akusala cittas, experiencing the hardness, softness, etc. with wise attention or with unwise attention, for example with like or dislike. Then a mind-door process follows, experiencing the same object with the same type of javana cittas as the preceding sense-door process. L: This bodily feeling > seems to be both nama and rupa inseparable. When pleasant feeling arises > with a consciousness of generosity I feel this feeling in my body. That > can't be right. What is going on here? N: Pleasant feeling with generosity: can we be sure? Since cittas succeed one another so fast there is bound to be citta rooted in attachment with pleasant feeling shortly after the kusala citta. The different jatis are essential but difficult to distinguish them from one another. Anyway, cittas condition rupa as you correctly said to Howard. Many examples of this. This means; citta and the accompanying cetasikas can originate rupa. The Vis explains the degrees of rapture (under jhanafactors): this can be hair raising, conditioning rupas. Thrilled about music, maybe tears. Generosity: smiling, that is rupa produced by citta and cetasikas. Fear, nervousness, anger: condition rupas, maybe hardness. Exertion conditons heat. Citta originates rupas from head to toe, but we know all this by inference, it is very common. We should not attach so much importance to them. I do not think it is useful to pay much attention to all those rupas or try to find out what conditions what. We are noticing and thinking about them, but they have already gone. Nama and rupa all the time, but difficult to know their different characteristics. It may seem that bodily feeling appears, but can we be sure? Just one moment of vipakacitta, not connected with like or dislike. Or is it body-consciousness? Just one moment of vipaka, not connected with like or dislike. Or is it clinging to rupa, or clinging to pleasant mental feeling? There are so many different namas and rupas. All of them can be objects of clinging with or without wrong view. That is why it is essential to know first: what is nama and what is rupa, not just in theory, but by insight. This is the first stage. Otherwise there is no way of entangling them. They cannot be known as they are immediately, but they have to be investigated little by little, without naming them. Seven rupas appear all the time: the sense objects. Tangible object includes three rupas, that is why there are seven. They should be investigated when they appear. They appear just now, they are not theory! They do not know anything, they are different from nama. Sarah quoted in her post: Trying to find out by reasoning and thinking can be most confusing, we can't anyway. If we try to catch things it will always be: . The clinging to self will not go away and we shall be further and further away from the truth. Trying to find out too much about feelings and rupas is contraproductive to right understanding, and there will be doubts about them: is it this, is it that? Such attitude makes our lives very complicated. All those objects are really insignificant, gone immediately. Only pañña can know them as they are. But first we have to know: is it nama or is it rupa? Not by reasoning but through direct experience. That uncomplicates our life. I do not believe that we mostly cling to feelings, but we cling to all objects through six doors. Not only through mind-door. We can find this also in the suttas. We cling to self and mine most of all. Clinging can also be accompanied by indifferent feeling and those are the moments we do not notice. Not knowing that there are such moments is dangerous. It can give rise to a distorted view of reality. There can be clinging with indifferent feeling just after seeing or hearing. We have no notion of the countless moments of clinging in a day. You said to Howard: It is one of the seven cetasikas arising with each citta, but it is very difficult to know its characteristic. First the difference between nama and rupa has to be realized. Contact is real, but it depends on sati and pañña of the individual whether it appears or not. Not everybody may realize contact as it is. Perhaps it is fitting if I say something now about theory and Abhidhamma. The Abhidhamma teaches about seeing, hearing, attachment, etc. about everything that occurs in life, and that is certainly not theory. But it comes across as theory so long as all these realities have not been investigated through satipatthana. Heard on MP3: someone wanted to know about the four jatis of kusala, akusala, vipaka and kiriya. Answer: first you have to know the nature of citta, what citta is. There is citta at this moment, seeing or hearing arise time and again. Citta is the element that knows or experiences. Thus, without satipatthana the Abhidhamma may seem to be theory. Nina. 34420 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Mon Jul 5, 2004 11:00am Subject: Re: Need clarification on a few subjects Hi Lee and all, What are the comments the reverend made that suprise you? Metta, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Dhammaasoka" wrote: > Dear all, > > Need your help again this time. > > I am folowing a nikaya sutta class leads by a reverend near my > place. There are a few comments that he made surprise me in the > sense that the comments are quite different with what I have studied > and heard. I would like to hear your comments about them. I hope you > all won't mind for the trouble. > > 1. Firstly, do we discerning the anicca lakhana when we are in Jhana? > 2. What does sampajjano actually mean? Is it just knowing the object > or with discernment on anicca? > 3. Is the samatha and vipassana actually go together and can't be > single out during our practice in satipatthana? (Without any magga > or phala-citta) > 4. The 11 ways of discerning the dhamma (pass, current, future, far, > near... etc.) mentioned in suttas is for the purpose of > understanding that the dhamma is always the same in every aspect and > not meant for real discernment? > 5. When Buddha mentioned that discern internally, discern externally, > discern internally and externally in the Maha Satipatthana sutta, > does He means discerning the six door as internally and the six > respective object as externally and their relationship or process > and internally and externally, or, does Buddha refer internally to > ourselves and externally to others? > 6. When Buddha said discerning the body as body, feeling as > feeling ...etc, do we discern the body, feeling, cittas and dhamma > through feeling? As the reverend said, through feeling that we feel > the existence of the body, through the feeling we notice the state > of mind and the dhamma as well. Is it the way interpreting the sutta? > > The reverend only accept words from Nikayas and not other than > that. :) > > Need your maha karuna to help me to clear doubts. (Actually these are > doubts arose in my friends as well) > > > With metta, > Lee 34421 From: Sujjhana Bhinnatta Date: Mon Jul 5, 2004 11:00am Subject: Re: some caution and non-advice Dear Ken and all, I am happy to see my post stimulated some very interesting discussions. Ken, I'm not going to address your comments individually like I have in the past. I have come to see that our discussion hinges on whether one believes the "ultimate realities" described in the Abhidhamma are really ultimate realities or just concepts stripped from the suttas and organized in a way as to define them and remove any ambiguity as to their meaning (as concepts). You are right in assuming that I do not believe in the ultimate reality of citta, cetasika, and rupa (and probably not the nibbana defined in the Abhidhamma). Ironically, we have unwittingly ventured down the same line of discussion that originally led Moggaliputta-tissa to write his Kathavatthu. Based on the fact that this text was later elevated to Canonical status, we must agree that clearly the philosophical themes discussed in this work should be consistent with the philisophical temper of the rest of the Abhidhamma. The Kathavatthu's contribution was precisely in eliminating the absolutist, essentialist, or reductionist perspectives. "No one reading the excessively long debate in the Kathavatthu on the conception of a person could assert that the Abhidhamma deals with ultimate realities." (Kalupahana in A History of Buddhist Philosophy, p145) Eliminating this belief in "ultimate realities," one is able to explain the contents of the Abhidhamma in terms of the two main teachings of the Buddha, namely anatta and paticcasamuppada. So then what's the point of exhaustive list of psychological factors in the Abhidhamma? Well, any attempt to list all the physical and psychological constituents of human experience would leave us with a pile of discrete entities so large it would fill the oceans. The Abhidhamma attempts to glean from the discourses of the Buddha, the essential concepts and terms and lists them by how they relate to one another via various classification schemes (i.e. the four noble truths, five skandhas, etc). The fact that the Sarvastivadins and the Theravadins compiled different lists shows that their respective compilers took only what they thought were significant elements. The vibhanga then is an analytical process attempting to determine the contextual meaning of a concept. Thus giving any ultimate reality to these concepts, consists in just the type of wrong view being discussed by Moggaliputta-tissa in the Kathavatthu and by later Buddhists in the perfection of wisdom literature (Vajracchedika). Furthermore, it must be seen by the student of Abhidhamma that giving absolute status to such concepts is not in line with the Buddha's teaching on anatta. This is where I see the value in the Abhidhamma; it goes to great lengths to try and determine the meanings and applications of the concepts the Buddha used in the teachings while at the same time trying to maintain their non-substantiality. An undertaking that I truly value, but see no purpose in trying to replicate. Friends, the study and practice of the Dhamma-vinaya comes in many flavors. Some prefer a sound theoretical understanding before even attempting meditation practice. Some have an affinity with jnana and can attain deep levels of concentration, but are unable to use that power to cultivate discernment (panna) or insight (vipassana). It is from this observation, that I see a balance is necessary. And please remember that Buddhism is a tradition spanning twenty-five centuries not just the first five. The problem of absolutism or essentialism came up while the Buddha was alive and still come up today. Through faith in the teachings and sustained and effortful practice of the Eight-fold path, I believe we can all uproot our defilements and kilesas and cross over to the other shore. Once there, however, we must leave even the Dhamma behind. I'm reminded of a Zen saying that goes something like this: "If you see the Buddha walking down the road, kill him." May we all radiate love and wisdom. Bhinnatta 34422 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Jul 5, 2004 11:10am Subject: Re: [dsg] Need clarification on a few subjects Dear Lee, I take out only a few points, you have many interesting points. op 05-07-2004 13:39 schreef Dhammaasoka op dasoka@n...: > > 1. Firstly, do we discerning the anicca lakhana when we are in Jhana? N: The jhanacittas have absorption concentration with pañña on one of the meditation subjects of samatha. anicca lakhana is the object of vipassana. L: 2. What does sampajjano actually mean? Is it just knowing the object > or with discernment on anicca? N: with sampajañña or pañña (another term for sampajañña), that can be of the level of samatha or of vipassana. So it depends what the object is. If it is the realization of impermanence it is vipassana pañña. L: 3. Is the samatha and vipassana actually go together and can't be > single out during our practice in satipatthana? (Without any magga > or phala-citta) N: When vipassana is developed there is also calm, samatha, with the citta. The factors of the eightfold Path which are samadhi, sati and right effort are actually the concentration of the eightfold Path. But mind: the object is a nama or rupa that appears. The term: our practice in satipatthana is confusing. It seems that there is a set time, whereas satipatthana is just the development of understanding of any, any reality that appears now, no matter where we are. Any object, also akusala! L: . The 11 ways of discerning the dhamma (pass, current, future, far, > near... etc.) mentioned in suttas is for the purpose of > understanding that the dhamma is always the same in every aspect and > not meant for real discernment? N: These 11 ways are said of the five khandhas, they are past present, future, near, far, coarse, subtle, etc . What has a past, present and future arises and falls away, it is impermanent. They are objects of understanding, they are another way of presenting the ultimate realities of citta, cetasika and rupa (not for the reverend!). L: 5. When Buddha mentioned that discern internally, discern externally, > discern internally and externally in the Maha Satipatthana sutta, > does He means discerning the six door as internally and the six > respective object as externally and their relationship or process > and internally and externally, or, does Buddha refer internally to > ourselves and externally to others? N: As I understand, the last one. You may be touching another's body and then just hardness presents itself, no person. Or the other person's sadness appears, this brings you back to your own citta, and the way you feel about his sadness. It is a reminder. All these aspects are reminders to bring you back to nama and rupa now. L: 6. When Buddha said discerning the body as body, feeling as > feeling ...etc, do we discern the body, feeling, cittas and dhamma > through feeling? As the reverend said, through feeling that we feel > the existence of the body, through the feeling we notice the state > of mind and the dhamma as well. Is it the way interpreting the sutta? N: No, I do not see it this way. It is sati that is aware and pañña that understands. Understanding has to be emphasized all the time. It has to be sharp and keen, and know precisely the nama or rupa that appears through one of the six doors, one at a time. L: The reverend only accept words from Nikayas and not other than > that. :) N: I see! We need not mention any sources, let us just talk about realities. We can call them in terms of the khandhas. Very interesting questions. Any more? Nina. 34423 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Jul 5, 2004 11:10am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: hello Hi Ken O, Welcome back. I am really glad to see you. I was wondering whether I should write to you but thought that you might be busy. I was asking Lodewijk: shall I write to him, or is this bothering him? Nina. op 05-07-2004 06:48 schreef Ken O op ashkenn2k@y...: > Hi Gislene > > It provide a good start 34424 From: Sujjhana Bhinnatta Date: Mon Jul 5, 2004 11:26am Subject: Re: Jhana Factors in Suttas Hi Rob, Five-factored noble right concentration is taught in AN V.28: Samadhanga Sutta. Access to Insight has a translation at http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an05-028.html If you want the orginial pali the link is http://www.tipitaka.org/tipitaka/s0403m1/s0403m1-frm.html then click on chapter five from the drop down menu: Mundarajavaggo. Metta, Bhinnatta *************************************************** Hi All, I just finished delivering my first of four weekly 2-hour talks on Abhidhamma. During the break, I met Lee (a DSG member) and he asked me if I was aware of any Sutta references that explicitly listed the five Jhana factors in the first Jhana. I admit that I have not spent much time studying jahanas. I am hoping that some other DSG member may have the reference handy. Metta, Rob M :-) 34425 From: icarofranca Date: Mon Jul 5, 2004 0:14pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Abhidhamma Hi Nina > N: Here the trouble could be in missing out the relevant >commentaries. The > Dhammasangani should be read together with the Expositor >(Atthasaalinii). > Without this one may get lost. >------------------------------------------------------------------- Very interesting! Despite my endemic lack of free time, I managed to download excerpts of the Vinaya at my Palm. I've read all the Mahavagga Vinaya and now I've got a new and more accurate viewpoint of many aspects of the Buddhadhamma. Its initial passages are a treasure of real understanding and lighted up a spotlight on many passages on Dhammasangani and other suttas. First of all, Buddha hadn't get his ideas out of nowhere: the everyday practice and a careful application of his own concepts were paramount for the edification of his corpus of knowledge. One can catch up that the Dependent origination, the four Noble truths and the Three main modes of expression were the roots of all Buddha's effort to preach Dhamma and put it in practice ( the Mahavagga makes the stand that the Patimokkha is the one and Real Dhamma of all, because its mandatory recitation in all Uposatha activities). There are also commentaries about the Mahavagga, written by Buddhaghosa ... I will check it out if I have got these at my own recollection of Buddhistic works!!!No single passage of suttas, vinaya, abhidhamma or commentaries can be spared off without lack of understanding of the whole!!! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- The Vibhanga, Book of Analysis, should be > read together with the Dispeller of Delusion (I and II). If you have time > and interest you could perhaps indicate where you find the Abh questionable > or superfluous. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Not ours for sure!!! Mettaya, Ícaro 34426 From: Date: Mon Jul 5, 2004 8:31am Subject: Re: [dsg] On the topic of Sensation, Pleasure and Pain Hi, Jon - In a message dated 7/5/04 12:48:28 PM Eastern Daylight Time, jonoabb@y... writes: > > Hi, Howard > > --- upasaka@a... wrote: >Hi, Jon - > > > >In a message dated 7/4/04 11:28:25 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > >jonoabb@y... writes: > > > > That's a very good question, Jon, one which I think we should > >always > >ask with regard to any theory, whether our own, or of commentators, or > >even as > >presented in Abhidhamma or Sutta. The Dhamma is a very practical matter, > >very > >pragmatic. One implication of this theory, should it be valid, is the > >importance, I think, of mindfulness of the body (and bodily sensation), > >an activity > >greatly emphasized by the Buddha and by many meditation teachers. If the > >theory > >is correct, close attention to bodily sensation places the mind right at > >a critical juncture point, a point at which arise pleasantness and > >unpleasantness, > >the feelings that lead to craving and aversion. > > It is made clear in the Satipatthana Sutta that there are 4 'foundations > of mindfulness'. One of these is of course the body, but there is no > suggestion of the body being a 'critical juncture'. > > In what sense do you see a moment of mindfulenss of the body as being of > more value than a moment of midfulness of, say, attachmnet or aversion? > ---------------------------------------------- Howard: Mindfulness of all dhammas is important. What you asked was what of pragmatic value might be drawn from the hypothesis that pleasant and unpleasant vedana are the direct results only of *body* contact. My answer is that if this is so (though it well might not be), then mindfulness of body-door objects places the mind directly at the point that sukkha and dukkha vedana arise, whereas mindfulness of other sense doors would be less directly targeted at that point. ----------------------------------------------- > > Jon > ======================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 34427 From: icarofranca Date: Mon Jul 5, 2004 1:10pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism.XIV 84, feelings Hi Nina! > Thus, without satipatthana the Abhidhamma may seem to > be theory. ------------------------------------------------------------------ All the Abhidhamma's commentaries in a Nutshell!!! Mettaya, Ícaro 34428 From: Date: Mon Jul 5, 2004 10:43am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Abhidhamma Hi, Nina - In a message dated 7/5/04 1:59:54 PM Eastern Daylight Time, nilo@e... writes: > Hi Howard, > I wonder whether I could clarify a few points about the Abhidhamma. > op 03-07-2004 13:55 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: > > >Moreover, it seems to me that much important teaching material of the > suttas, > >especially in terms of skillful means of presenation, is missing from the > >Abhidhamma, and, conversely, much superfluous material irrelevant to the > task > >of > >liberation - and some of it questionable - is included in the Abhidhamma. > In > >its (not fully realized) attempt at completeness, the Abhidhamma includes > many > >leaves of the forest that are not among the useful ones held in the > Buddha's > >hand. > N: Here the trouble could be in missing out the relevant commentaries. The > Dhammasangani should be read together with the Expositor (Atthasaalinii). > Without this one may get lost. The Vibhanga, Book of Analysis, should be > read together with the Dispeller of Delusion (I and II). --------------------------------------------------- Howard: That is a very good point, Nina. -------------------------------------------------- If you have time> > and interest you could perhaps indicate where you find the Abh questionable > or superfluous. ------------------------------------------------- Howard: Well, I've raised such matters before, several times, and I'd rather not overly get into that. What is useful (as I see it) in the Abhidhamma far outweighs what might be viewed by some as superfluous. ------------------------------------------------ > H: Nina and her teacher, Khun Sujin, > >wisely > >teach not making this substitution. They emphasize "Abhidhamma in Daily > Life" > >which, as I understand it, uses the Abhidhamma as a guide to ongoing > mindful > >watching of dhammas as they arise and cease, displaying the tilakkhana that > >constitute their common nature. > N: is not the way A. Sujin teaches. There could > be a self watching. > ------------------------------------------------ Howard: No, there couldn't be, as there is no self! ;-)) I certainly agree, and I know this is what you meant, that there could be the *seeming* of an observer. But that will be the case until perfect enlghtenment! We shouldn't let that fact dissuade us from paying as close attention as possible to what arises and ceases. ------------------------------------------------ The dhammas are elements that display their own> > characteristics and as you agree, nobody can direct them. Sati is not to be > emphasized, but understanding. Ongoing mindfulness: difficult term. It seems > unnatural. > ------------------------------------------------- Howard: Mundane knowledge of Dhamma certainly comes first. However, sati must be cultivated, leading, along with other factors, to pa~n~na. But perhaps I should have better said "careful attention" instead of "mindful watching". I do believe that it is central to Buddhist practice to *attempt* to carefully attend to what arises, observing it with as much clarity and equanimity as one can muster. ----------------------------------------------- True, through insight that is developed there comes a time that> > sati and pañña have become powers, balava vipassana. > ------------------------------------------------- Howard: But one must begin somewhere, and that somewhere is wherever one is *right now*, in a state of delusion and overwhelmed by sense of self and own-being. -------------------------------------------------- At the first principal> > stage of insight: sati can arise no matter when and where. I assure you, I > am far from that stage. > Nina. > ========================= With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 34429 From: Philip Date: Mon Jul 5, 2004 3:49pm Subject: Re: To Rob M- Brain Research and Zen Masters Hi James, and all Welcome back, James. Hope you had a pleasant holiday. Speaking of the neurological benefits of meditation, there was this study reported at BBC: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/2725487.stm I sometimes thought about this study when I wondered what I was giving up by not applying myself seriously to meditation, but then wondered if my interest wasn't based on wanting to develop a healthier brain, which might not be any wiser than wanting to develop a healthier body. And then again, it might be. :) Metta, Phil --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: > Friend Rob M, > > I don't know if you remember the discussion we had long ago about > meditation and brain research, but I came across a piece of > pertinent information. 34430 From: Philip Date: Mon Jul 5, 2004 4:02pm Subject: Re: some caution and non-advice Hi Victor, and all. V: > Regarding khandha/aggregates, I think you might be interested in the > following discourse: > > Samyutta Nikaya XXII.48 > Khandha Sutta > Aggregates > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn22-048.html Ph: Thanks for this, Victor. Actually, I think it provides a confirmation, for me, that it was helpful to learn about rupa and nama through Nina's books and currently the aggregates through Ch XIV of Visudhimagga before studying suttas in an applied way. When I first read about khandas a couple of years ago I looked through suttas to find more about what it means - probably through the subject index at access to insight, or Professor Google. And probably read the sutta you kindly linked me to. But it is really hard to understand, just words, without at least a basic knowledge of processes of cittas, in my opinion. Now when I read it I have at least a little bit more clear idea of what is being referred to in the sutta. But that is me. We all have different accumulations and conditions that make different approaches right. BTW, thanks again for the Path to Freedom link. I am finding wonderfully helpful suttas there. Metta, Phil 34431 From: Herman Hofman Date: Mon Jul 5, 2004 4:12pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Abhidhamma First of all, this post is not about Nina!!!!!!!! Now, on with it. Hi, I have a confession to make. I have never read the Abhidhamma. Not a single skeric of it. Not in an other language, and not in English. I have read synopses of the Abhidhamma, I have read what others have written about the Abhidhamma (some omit to say whether they are commenting on the Abhidhamma or on a synopsis), and I have read what others have written about what others have written to the nth degree (some omit to say whether they are commenting on a 3rd, 4th, 5th or nth source). Yet I hold a view about the Abhidhamma (a dismissive one). Silly, isn't it? NO, IT ISN'T. Because what I read the Abhidhamma purports to be about (it's primary source) I do have ready and frequent access to. And I see no connection between the primary source (reality) and the Abhidhamma. Some take pride in how wordy the Abhidhamma is. Yet when there is awareness of the primary source of the Abhidhamma (reality) there is not a single word in sight !!! Strange indeed that it should take so many words to describe something so totally non-verbal. The present moment is such a living, fluctuating reality, yet someone imagined this could be captured in a valley of dry bones. Weird, totally weird. Some take pride in how difficult it is to master the Abhidhamma, they take pride in just how many commentaries, and which ones, are necessary to shed light on the intricate and subtle meanings in this great intellectual masterpiece. And yet, somehow untangling this web of words is considered a safer bet than mental silence, because in mental silence there could be a self?? Awareness of the present moment rises and falls with it. One needs to be quiet to see the ego struggle with its non-existence. Yes, and many lives ago I was the guy who scored the winning goal for Greece. Looks like kicking that camel-dung around has finally paid off :-) Herman 34432 From: Herman Hofman Date: Mon Jul 5, 2004 4:18pm Subject: Buddhism and psychology Hi All, I found the following useful and interesting. Perhaps you will too. The article puts the basic tenets of Buddhism in a modern light. http://www.innerself.com/Spirituality/psychotherapy_2.htm Catch ya'll later Herman 34433 From: Date: Mon Jul 5, 2004 5:06pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism.XIV 84, feelings Hi Nina, Thank you for the very long reply but it didn't answer my question. It doesn't matter if the consciousness is kusala or akusala. Generosity was just an example. The question is, why is the feeling that arises with any consciousness experienced partly in the body? This is the same whether the consciousness is generosity or hatred. This isn't a mere theoretical question. It is basic to understanding what feeling is. I don't think I experience feeling without the body but I could be wrong. I also don't understand how taste can generate an immediate pleasant or unpleasant feeling that is separate and distinct from like and dislike. Taste is supposed to be always accompanied by neutral feeling. Maybe abhidhamma made a mistake. Larry 34434 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Mon Jul 5, 2004 5:32pm Subject: Re: some caution and non-advice Hi Phil and all, No problem. Regarding nama and rupa, the Buddha explains what they are in Samyutta Nikaya XII.2 Paticca-samuppada-vibhanga Sutta Analysis of Dependent Co-arising http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn12-002.html "And what is name-&-form? Feeling, perception, intention, contact, & attention: This is called name. The four great elements, and the form dependent on the four great elements: This is called form. This name & this form are called name-&-form. The field of psychology and/or cognitive science includes study in feeling, perception, intention, contact, & attention, and other mental and/or cognitive processes. Metta, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Philip" wrote: > > Hi Victor, and all. > > > V: > Regarding khandha/aggregates, I think you might be interested > in the > > following discourse: > > > > Samyutta Nikaya XXII.48 > > Khandha Sutta > > Aggregates > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn22-048.html > > Ph: Thanks for this, Victor. Actually, I think it provides a > confirmation, for me, that it was helpful to learn about rupa and > nama through Nina's books and currently the aggregates through Ch XIV > of Visudhimagga before studying suttas in an applied way. When I > first read about khandas a couple of years ago I looked through > suttas to find more about what it means - probably through the > subject index at access to insight, or Professor Google. And probably > read the sutta you kindly linked me to. But it is really hard to > understand, just words, without at least a basic knowledge of > processes of cittas, in my opinion. Now when I read it I have at > least a little bit more clear idea of what is being referred to in > the sutta. But that is me. We all have different accumulations and > conditions that make different approaches right. > > BTW, thanks again for the Path to Freedom link. I am finding > wonderfully helpful suttas there. > > Metta, > Phil 34435 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Mon Jul 5, 2004 5:47pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Abhidhamma Hi Herman, And metaphysics is a "[b]ranch of philosophy that studies the ultimate structure and constitution of reality-i.e., of that which is real, insofar as it is real." :-) http://www.britannica.com/ebc/article?eu=397280&query=metaphysics&ct= Metta, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Herman Hofman" wrote: > First of all, this post is not about Nina!!!!!!!! > > Now, on with it. > > Hi, I have a confession to make. > > I have never read the Abhidhamma. Not a single skeric of it. Not in an > other language, and not in English. I have read synopses of the > Abhidhamma, I have read what others have written about the Abhidhamma > (some omit to say whether they are commenting on the Abhidhamma or on a > synopsis), and I have read what others have written about what others > have written to the nth degree (some omit to say whether they are > commenting on a 3rd, 4th, 5th or nth source). > > Yet I hold a view about the Abhidhamma (a dismissive one). Silly, isn't > it? NO, IT ISN'T. Because what I read the Abhidhamma purports to be > about (it's primary source) I do have ready and frequent access to. And > I see no connection between the primary source (reality) and the > Abhidhamma. > > Some take pride in how wordy the Abhidhamma is. Yet when there is > awareness of the primary source of the Abhidhamma (reality) there is not > a single word in sight !!! Strange indeed that it should take so many > words to describe something so totally non-verbal. The present moment is > such a living, fluctuating reality, yet someone imagined this could be > captured in a valley of dry bones. Weird, totally weird. > > Some take pride in how difficult it is to master the Abhidhamma, they > take pride in just how many commentaries, and which ones, are necessary > to shed light on the intricate and subtle meanings in this great > intellectual masterpiece. And yet, somehow untangling this web of words > is considered a safer bet than mental silence, because in mental silence > there could be a self?? > > Awareness of the present moment rises and falls with it. One needs to be > quiet to see the ego struggle with its non-existence. > > Yes, and many lives ago I was the guy who scored the winning goal for > Greece. Looks like kicking that camel-dung around has finally paid off > :-) > > Herman 34436 From: Date: Mon Jul 5, 2004 1:48pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism.XIV 84, feelings Hi, Larry (and Nina) - In a message dated 7/5/04 8:16:48 PM Eastern Daylight Time, LBIDD@w... writes: > Hi Nina, > > Thank you for the very long reply but it didn't answer my question. It > doesn't matter if the consciousness is kusala or akusala. Generosity was > just an example. The question is, why is the feeling that arises with > any consciousness experienced partly in the body? This is the same > whether the consciousness is generosity or hatred. This isn't a mere > theoretical question. It is basic to understanding what feeling is. I > don't think I experience feeling without the body but I could be wrong. > -------------------------------------------------- Howard: What you are saying, Larry, accords with my experience as well, and is reflected in my theory that pleasant and unpleasant feelings are always *directly* associated only with bodily sensations. ---------------------------------------------------- > I also don't understand how taste can generate an immediate pleasant or > unpleasant feeling that is separate and distinct from like and dislike. > Taste is supposed to be always accompanied by neutral feeling. Maybe > abhidhamma made a mistake. > --------------------------------------------------- Howard: What I seem to experience - though this is very subtle, and could well be misperceived - is that even tastes and smells are initially experienced as neutral in feel, but mind processing *quickly* follows them, producing (often subtle) bodily sensations, and it is those bodily sensations that can be pleasant or unpleasant. Again, this is how it *seems* to me, but I certainly recognize that this "seeming" may well be mistaken. One fact does seem to mildly support this view in a way, is that, often, 'vedana' instead of being translated as 'feeling' is translated as 'sensation', indicating the strong relationship between feeling and bodily sensation. ------------------------------------------------- > > Larry > ======================= With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 34437 From: Date: Mon Jul 5, 2004 5:51pm Subject: Vism.XIV 85 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) Ch. XIV 85. (3) But when young children have a natural habit due to seeing the behavior of relatives and are joyful on seeing bhikkhus and at once give them whatever they have in their hands or pay homage, then the third kind of consciousness arises. (4) But when they behave like this on being urged by their relatives, 'Give; pay homage', then the fourth kind of consciousness arises. (5)-(8) But when the consciousnesses are devoid of joy in these four instances through encountering no excellence in the gift to be given, or in the recipient, etc., or through want of any such cause for joy, the the remaining four, which are 'accompanied by equanimity', arise. So sense-sphere profitable [consciousness] should be understood as of eight kinds, being classed according to joy, equanimity, knowledge, and prompting. 34438 From: Herman Hofman Date: Mon Jul 5, 2004 6:06pm Subject: RE: [dsg] On Right Livelihood; Then and Now; a point that can be easily overlooked Hi Nori, I agree with your post. The following sums it up nicely. "I think in general, working for any company that is run by those who are greedy, dishonest, hateful, or create suffering for the world is a bad livelihood. Working for them, you are participating in accomplishing their agenda." The Nuremberg defense (I was only following orders) is not a defense against the laws of kamma. The livelihood recommended by the Buddha is to be withdrawn from the world. Thanks Herman -----Original Message----- From: nori [mailto:nori_public@a...] Sent: Saturday, 3 July 2004 7:02 PM To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Subject: [dsg] On Right Livelihood; Then and Now; a point that can be easily overlooked Hi all, It is obvious from reading the details `of mere morality' in the Brahma-gala Sutta, in Digha Nikaya that many of the modes of livelihood mentioned were written, not as a general guide or rule for all ages, but addressing, specifically, the many wrong means of livelihood that were prevalent at the time. For example, some wrong means of livelihood mentioned: 21-14 `Sacrificing by spewing mustard seeds, &c., into the fire out of ones's mouth.' 21-15 `Drawing blood out of one's right knee as a sacrifice to the gods.' I could imagine somebody reading this list and saying to his/herself: `well let's see, I don't do that, that and that for a living so my livelihood must be OK.' Or I could imagine other people going further from these specific occupations, and making general rules such as: `well I am not in an occupation that deals with the killing of animals, etc. so my livelihood must be OK.' Now, the following, is, of course, only my opinion, but in this modern world of mega-corporations run by board members, there are wrong means of livelihood that can be easily overlooked. I think in general, working for any company that is run by those who are greedy, dishonest, hateful, or create suffering for the world is a bad livelihood. Working for them, you are participating in accomplishing their agenda. The dire consequence for participating in such a company is that you have to work and be in their presence, those that are un-beloved. Arrrrrgggggghhhhh !! Those that run the company set the atmosphere of it; their greed, dishonesty, hate, or general disregard for society trickles down from the controlling board members, to managers, to lower managers, and to peers. It spreads like a plague. There is much downside for being in the presence of those that are un-beloved: You suffer from their presence; they encourage unskillful behavior, they mock skillful behavior; you live battling their influence, you live in the 'field' of their kamma, in the presence of their sorrows. with metta, nori 34439 From: Dhammaasoka Date: Mon Jul 5, 2004 10:50pm Subject: Re: Need clarification on a few subjects Dear Nina & Yu and others, Yu, the Reverend stated that: 1. The samatha and vipassana cannot be single out. Both should go hand in hand. 2. He quoted the pali term "sampajjano" from Maha Satipatthana as knowing with discrning the anicca lakhana. 3. He mentioned that we should discern body, feeling, mind and dhamma (the four subject of satipatthana) through feeling. His discription was, by watching the changes of the breath, we will be able to know the states of mind and dhamma as well as the body. 4. He mentioned that we can't "see" our past lives according to sutta. Buddha teaches us to live now and then. The 11 ways of discerning is merely for us to understand the aspect of dhamma. (This one I found conflicting with the teachings of Pa Auk Sayadaw, so I am not sure) 5. The Reverend mentioned discerning internally, externally, internally and externally in the Maha Satipatthana sutta as discerning the six door as internally and the six respective object as externally and their relationship. He quoted one of the sutta that sound something like "what is the internal world--the six door; what is the external world--the six respective object" 6. He mentioned that the one-pointedness only exists from 2nd Jhana and onwards. 1st Jhana only have the four factors. (I have tried to search for suttas that have clear mention of the five factors and I have mentioned this to Rob.M as well. Rob.M found 1 sutta from Mn19 and I found 1 sutta from DN111) Nina: Thanks a lot for the reply. By the way, can I have further clarification or confirmation? 1. Firstly, do we discerning the anicca lakhana when we are in Jhana? > N: The jhanacittas have absorption concentration with pañña on one of the meditation subjects of samatha. anicca lakhana is the object of vipassana. L: I understand it as in the state of samatha there is no discrnment of anicca lakhana. Am I understand it correctly? > L: 2. What does sampajjano actually mean? Is it just knowing the object or with discernment on anicca? > N: with sampajañña or pañña (another term for sampajañña), that can be of the level of samatha or of vipassana. So it depends what the object is. If it is the realization of impermanence it is vipassana pañña. L: OK, I was not so sure about this at first as the Abhidhamma defines "Sampajjanna" with panna etc. So, when we talk about the satipatthana, the object is for the development of vipassana only and not samatha? > L: 3. Is the samatha and vipassana actually go together and can't be single out during our practice in satipatthana? (Without any magga or phala-citta) > N: When vipassana is developed there is also calm, samatha, with the citta. The factors of the eightfold Path which are samadhi, sati and right effort are actually the concentration of the eightfold Path. But mind: the object is a nama or rupa that appears. The term: our practice in satipatthana is confusing. It seems that there is a set time, whereas satipatthana is just the development of understanding of any, any reality that appears now, no matter where we are. Any object, also akusala! L: I think I used the wrong word that I actually intended. The subject should be Jhana and Vipassana. Anyway, thanks for the valueble input. > L: . The 11 ways of discerning the dhamma (pass, current, future, far, near... etc.) mentioned in suttas is for the purpose of understanding that the dhamma is always the same in every aspect and not meant for real discernment? > N: These 11 ways are said of the five khandhas, they are past present, future, near, far, coarse, subtle, etc . What has a past, present and future arises and falls away, it is impermanent. They are objects of understanding, they are another way of presenting the ultimate realities of citta, cetasika and rupa (not for the reverend!). L: Is it mean we can no way discerning the past nama and rupa? As I noticed that Pa Auk Sayadaw actually teaches students to discern the past and future. > L: 5. When Buddha mentioned that discern internally, discern externally, discern internally and externally in the Maha Satipatthana sutta, does He means discerning the six door as internally and the six respective object as externally and their relationship or process and internally and externally, or, does Buddha refer internally to ourselves and externally to others? > N: As I understand, the last one. You may be touching another's body and then just hardness presents itself, no person. Or the other person's sadness appears, this brings you back to your own citta, and the way you feel about his sadness. It is a reminder. All these aspects are reminders to bring you back to nama and rupa now. L: Although I have the same choice as you but I define it as discen the khandhas of ourselves and others through vipassana. (Even without direct touching) > L: 6. When Buddha said discerning the body as body, feeling as feeling ...etc, do we discern the body, feeling, cittas and dhamma through feeling? As the reverend said, through feeling that we feel the existence of the body, through the feeling we notice the state of mind and the dhamma as well. Is it the way interpreting the sutta? > N: No, I do not see it this way. It is sati that is aware and pañña that understands. Understanding has to be emphasized all the time. It has to be sharp and keen, and know precisely the nama or rupa that appears through one of the six doors, one at a time. L: From the dhiscussion with one of my friend, he said the REverend might be using the view point of Goenka ji. > L: The reverend only accept words from Nikayas and not other than that. :) > N: I see! We need not mention any sources, let us just talk about realities. We can call them in terms of the khandhas. L: But it is quite difficult to ensure and to be ensured which one is reality! :) People will usually quotes sayings of the Buddha as their authority of their teachings. Very interesting questions. Any more? L: Personally I do hope no more because if there is more questions regarding the teachings of the Reverend, then it means my friends and I will be even confused. Of course, I do not mean I have mastered the teachings of the Buddha and I do welcome teachings that I have not heard and different from what I have heard, just hope it wouldn't be too weird ;) There are still a few of questions and I will post on board after discussion with friends. Thanks, Nina. Regards, Lee 34440 From: christine_forsyth Date: Tue Jul 6, 2004 2:58am Subject: Re: [dsg] On Right Livelihood; Then and Now; a point that can be easily overlooked Hello Nori, Herman and all, I think you may find something interesting to consider (i.e. from a different perspective) about Right Livelihood in the Useful Posts in the Files section of Dhammastudygroup: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/ under the Heading "Livelihood (right - sammaa-aajiiva)" post numbers 17634, 17642, 17679, 18114, 24230, 24232. metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Herman Hofman" 34441 From: davjcur Date: Mon Jul 5, 2004 1:22pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Abhidhamma Hello, Where on the internet do you find the vinaya & the book of analysis? --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "icarofranca" wrote: > Hi Nina > > > N: Here the trouble could be in missing out the relevant > >commentaries. The > > Dhammasangani should be read together with the Expositor > >(Atthasaalinii). > > Without this one may get lost. > > >------------------------------------------------------------------ - > > Very interesting! > Despite my endemic lack of free time, I managed to download > excerpts of the Vinaya at my Palm. I've read all the Mahavagga Vinaya > and now I've got a new and more accurate viewpoint of many aspects of > the Buddhadhamma. Its initial passages are a treasure of real > understanding and lighted up a spotlight on many passages on > Dhammasangani and other suttas. > First of all, Buddha hadn't get his ideas out of nowhere: the > everyday practice and a careful application of his own concepts were > paramount for the edification of his corpus of knowledge. One can > catch up that the Dependent origination, the four Noble truths and > the Three main modes of expression were the roots of all Buddha's > effort to preach Dhamma and put it in practice ( the Mahavagga makes > the stand that the Patimokkha is the one and Real Dhamma of all, > because its mandatory recitation in all Uposatha activities). > There are also commentaries about the Mahavagga, written by > Buddhaghosa ... I will check it out if I have got these at my own > recollection of Buddhistic works!!!No single passage of suttas, > vinaya, abhidhamma or commentaries can be spared off without lack of > understanding of the whole!!! > > ------------------------------------------------------------------- --- > The Vibhanga, Book of Analysis, should be > > read together with the Dispeller of Delusion (I and II). If you > have time > > and interest you could perhaps indicate where you find the Abh > questionable > > or superfluous. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------- -- > > Not ours for sure!!! > > Mettaya, Ícaro 34442 From: Herman Hofman Date: Tue Jul 6, 2004 4:30am Subject: RE: [dsg] On Right Livelihood; Then and Now; a point that can be easily overlooked Hi Christine, I read, perhaps too hastily, the useful posts you mentioned, and the first four treat right livelihood in the following way. "'Right Livelihood' in fact refers to a moment at which there is wholesome abstinence from a breach of the precepts in the course of earning one's livelihood." Gotta love the "in fact" :-). I would dearly love to see anything from the Nikayas that even hints at this view. It is my view that "livelihood" is utterly meaningless as a momentary arising, as is any idea of sila or precept. Thanks for posting the links. Herman -----Original Message----- From: christine_forsyth [mailto:cforsyth@v...] Sent: Tuesday, 6 July 2004 7:58 PM To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [dsg] On Right Livelihood; Then and Now; a point that can be easily overlooked Hello Nori, Herman and all, I think you may find something interesting to consider (i.e. from a different perspective) about Right Livelihood in the Useful Posts in the Files section of Dhammastudygroup: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/ under the Heading "Livelihood (right - sammaa-aajiiva)" post numbers 17634, 17642, 17679, 18114, 24230, 24232. metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Herman Hofman" 34443 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Tue Jul 6, 2004 5:26am Subject: Re: [dsg] On the topic of Sensation, Pleasure and Pain Hi, Howard --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Jon - > > In a message dated 7/5/04 12:48:28 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > jonoabb@y... writes: > ... > > It is made clear in the Satipatthana Sutta that there are 4 > 'foundations > > of mindfulness'. One of these is of course the body, but there is no > > suggestion of the body being a 'critical juncture'. > > > > In what sense do you see a moment of mindfulenss of the body as being > of > > more value than a moment of midfulness of, say, attachmnet or > aversion? > > > ---------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Mindfulness of all dhammas is important. What you asked was what > of > pragmatic value might be drawn from the hypothesis that pleasant and > unpleasant > vedana are the direct results only of *body* contact. My answer is that > if > this is so (though it well might not be), then mindfulness of body-door > objects > places the mind directly at the point that sukkha and dukkha vedana > arise, > whereas mindfulness of other sense doors would be less directly targeted > at that > point. Unless I have misunderstood you, the pragmatic value you have identified indicates a specific 'advantage' in mindfulness of objects experienced through the body-door vs. mindfulness of objects through other sense-doors. However, if no such difference between the various foundations of mindfulness can be found in the texts, then perhaps the underlying idea/view should be questioned. (In saying this I do not of course question the great importance of the first foundation of mindfulness.) Jon 34444 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Tue Jul 6, 2004 5:39am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: some caution and non-advice Dear Bhinnatta I've been following with interest your discussion with KenH. Thanks for some stimulating exchanges. --- Sujjhana Bhinnatta wrote: > Dear Ken and all, ... > I have come to see that our discussion hinges on whether one believes > the > "ultimate realities" described in the Abhidhamma are really ultimate > realities or just concepts stripped from the suttas and organized in a > way > as to define them and remove any ambiguity as to their meaning (as > concepts). I must confess this is the first time I have come across such a statement. My question to you would be, within the suttas themselves there âre many references to dhammas, conditioned dhammas, the five aggregates, the elements, and the sense bases. What do you see as the significance of these references? Do you disagree with the view that these are the objects of insight the developoment of which leads eventually to enlightenment? Looking forward to more of your stimulating posts. Jon 34445 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Tue Jul 6, 2004 5:55am Subject: Greetings from Zermatt Hi, All A quick hello from the Country Bar (a pity that the best internet connection in town -- with unlimited free printing -- happens to be in such a noisy, smokey dive). Sarah and and I are having a great time here. Early morning walks before sunrise (this morning's was in pouring rain), plus a half-day walk followng breakfast (cooked by me, so far). Sarah's mother, over from England, is being a good sport about it all, although she has so far skipped the pre-breakfast walk, thanks all the same. As usual, I have been printing out all the posts so Sarah and I can read them together during the day, and that way we manage to keep fairly up to date. Gives us lots to think and talk about during the walks. Dhamma and the mountains -- nothing like ît! Oh, and the Tour de France, also. Cheers Jon 34446 From: Date: Tue Jul 6, 2004 2:47am Subject: Re: [dsg] On the topic of Sensation, Pleasure and Pain Hi, Jon - In a message dated 7/6/04 8:35:38 AM Eastern Daylight Time, jonoabb@y... writes: > > Hi, Howard > > --- upasaka@a... wrote: >Hi, Jon - > > > >In a message dated 7/5/04 12:48:28 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > >jonoabb@y... writes: > > > ... > >>It is made clear in the Satipatthana Sutta that there are 4 > >'foundations > >>of mindfulness'. One of these is of course the body, but there is no > >>suggestion of the body being a 'critical juncture'. > >> > >>In what sense do you see a moment of mindfulenss of the body as being > >of > >>more value than a moment of midfulness of, say, attachmnet or > >aversion? > >> > >---------------------------------------------- > >Howard: > > Mindfulness of all dhammas is important. What you asked was what > >of > >pragmatic value might be drawn from the hypothesis that pleasant and > >unpleasant > >vedana are the direct results only of *body* contact. My answer is that > >if > >this is so (though it well might not be), then mindfulness of body-door > >objects > >places the mind directly at the point that sukkha and dukkha vedana > >arise, > >whereas mindfulness of other sense doors would be less directly targeted > >at that > >point. > > Unless I have misunderstood you, the pragmatic value you have identified > indicates a specific 'advantage' in mindfulness of objects experienced > through the body-door vs. mindfulness of objects through other > sense-doors. > > However, if no such difference between the various foundations of > mindfulness can be found in the texts, then perhaps the underlying > idea/view should be questioned. > ---------------------------------------------- Howard: Perhaps so. Perhaps there is no advantage there. (But no harm either, of course.) Certainly, with respect to any sense door insight into the tilakkhana can arise. --------------------------------------------- (In saying this I do not of course> question the great importance of the > first foundation of mindfulness.) > > Jon > ========================= With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 34447 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Jul 6, 2004 10:12am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Abhidhamma Hi Herman, op 06-07-2004 01:12 schreef Herman Hofman op hhofman@t...: > First of all, this post is not about Nina!!!!!!!! N: Ah, that is kind of you! No debates necessary. I shall read on developing (mind: developing) equanimity. Nina. 34448 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Jul 6, 2004 10:12am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism.XIV 84, feelings Hi Larry and Howard, op 06-07-2004 02:06 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: The question is, why is the feeling that arises with > any consciousness experienced partly in the body? This is the same > whether the consciousness is generosity or hatred. This isn't a mere > theoretical question. It is basic to understanding what feeling is. I > don't think I experience feeling without the body but I could be wrong. > I also don't understand how taste can generate an immediate pleasant or > unpleasant feeling that is separate and distinct from like and dislike. > Taste is supposed to be always accompanied by neutral feeling. Maybe > abhidhamma made a mistake. N: I asked Lodewijk and he has a down to earth reply. All this is not his experience. He says, this is too complicated and it distracts from the essence: understanding anatta. We have to keep in mind the goal: our study has to lead to detachment from the idea of self. I tried to convey to you in my former post that it is the watching that does not help. It enforces the idea of my great feeling, my important feeling. I see your point saying, but I experience it this way. Let me try to give other angles. Howard is careful, saying, Larry, you may underestimate the velocity of different processes of cittas experiencing different objects. Tasting: vipakacitta accompanied by indifferent feeling. This is followed very shortly by javana cittas and these are kusala cittas or akusala cittas. When they are akusala cittas with attachment they are accompanied by pleasant feeling or indifferent feeling. We should not forget that all this is extremely fast. As to bodily reactions, these are in other processes. It is very individual and depends on someone's accumulations. Bodily feeling is also only vipaka and it experiences tangible object, but akusala citta with attachment to tangible object can arise shortly after this vipaka. This is conditioned by the latent tendency of sensuous desire. I shall quote a little from my Yamaka (sixth Book of the Abhidhamma, not in English) and Co. study. But first a few more points. Howard says: Lodewijk remarked that it is not easy to explain what feeling is. It is different from sensation as we use it in conventional sense. When we say sensation we assemble many dhammas together into a whole: bodily phenomena and mental phenomena. That is not the way to know just feeling that is pure nama. If we do not know feeling as pure nama it will always be my feeling, we shall not reach the goal. We take it for lasting and self. It is important to learn in detail what types of citta are accompanied by what types of feeling. See Vis. XIV, 125. But when watching it we may watch it with our own ideas, with ignorance and wrong view. Thus, when you say I feel pleasant taste with my whole body, there is a mixture of many different processes all taken together. These bodily phenomena arise because of other conditions, we cannot trace all. Anyway, it does not matter, we have to think of the goal. But I can quote of my latent tendencies, in a separate post. I am sure many questions will remain for you. Only pañña developed in vipassana can gradually have a more precise understanding of different dhammas, but we do need patience. Nina. 34449 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Jul 6, 2004 10:12am Subject: Re: [dsg] On the topic of Sensation, Pleasure and Pain Hi Howard, Larry, Respectfully butting in, op 05-07-2004 21:31 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: Howard wrote to Jon: > Mindfulness of all dhammas is important. What you asked was what of > pragmatic value might be drawn from the hypothesis that pleasant and > unpleasant > vedana are the direct results only of *body* contact. My answer is that if > this is so (though it well might not be), then mindfulness of body-door > objects places the mind directly at the point that sukkha and dukkha vedana arise, > whereas mindfulness of other sense doors would be less directly targeted at that point. Nina: Although you say that mindfulness of all dhammas is important, I get the impression that bodily feelings are over emphasized. How to reduce their importance? I understand that people try to understand what is more coarse and thus more obvious, such as feeling, but let's analyse and break things apart so that we can see feeling as only one short moment among other moments. That might be helpful. Sitting in the sun, experiencing just the right amount of heat, what is there? Bodyconsciousness that is kusala vipaka (the jaati that is vipaka, result) experiencing a desirable object. This is accompanied by pleasant bodily feeling, also vipaka, it does not like the object or cling to it. It is only one moment. Shortly after this: 7 javanacittas, and these may be akusala cittas with lobha, liking the heat element. They arise in a sense-door process, thus, only rupa can be the object, not feeling. Followed by a mind-door process still experiencing that rupa that has just fallen away. After that other mind-door processes which define and name the object (we do not count when these arise and how many of them). Then another mind-door process can take as object: the previous body-consciousness or the bodily feeling (this is nama!) or the pleasant mental feeling or the lobha that just arose before. Processes are so fast, for all practical purposes it is still the present moment. Bodily feeling is nama and can only be experienced in a later mind-door process. I think when we analyse the processes we can learn to see bodily feelings as poor, insignificant moments, they should not be overemphasized. Analysing the processes is still theory, but intellectual understanding should be correct. It is difficult to know the characteristic of bodily feeling, it is so evanescent, it can only be understood through vipassana. As said before: first the difference between nama and rupa should be realized. Otherwise there is great confusion. Nina. 34450 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Jul 6, 2004 10:12am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism.XIV 85, kamma and result Hi Larry, a few words to start this para. op 06-07-2004 02:51 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) Ch. XIV > > 85. (3) But when young children have a natural habit due to seeing the > behavior of relatives and are joyful on seeing bhikkhus and at once give > them whatever they have in their hands or pay homage, then the third > kind of consciousness arises. N: I am well in my study and since the second part of my Tiika deals with kamma and rebirth-consciousness I studied the Expositor (II, p. 358 and following) about this. Here I noticed the way Buddhaghosa works and it can fortify people's confidence in his conscientiousness. When kusala kamma is performed with citta accompanied by wisdom it is not always so that the result as rebirth-consciousness is of the same type. It depends on other factors, wisdom may be weak, and then it can produce rebirth-consciousness with two roots. The same about unprompted that may result in prompted, many fators are operating here. Now many opinions of many teachers are quoted by Buddhaghosa. He quotes also from three Elders: He then goes on analysing them very carefully. I am really impressed by his way of working. The Tiika is rather short about this subject. Nina. 34451 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Jul 6, 2004 10:12am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: careful attention. Hi Howard, op 05-07-2004 23:43 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: >> N: is not the way A. Sujin teaches. There could >> be a self watching. (snipped) > Howard: > Mundane knowledge of Dhamma certainly comes first. However, sati must > be cultivated, leading, along with other factors, to pa~n~na. But perhaps I > should have better said "careful attention" instead of "mindful watching". I > do > believe that it is central to Buddhist practice to *attempt* to carefully > attend to what arises, observing it with as much clarity and equanimity as one > can > muster. > ----------------------------------------------- > True, through insight that is developed there comes a time that> >> sati and pañña have become powers, balava vipassana. >> > ------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > But one must begin somewhere, and that somewhere is wherever one is > *right now*, in a state of delusion and overwhelmed by sense of self and > own-being. N: You say: . Even though there is an underlying idea of self no matter what we do, I still think that the beginning must be right, otherwise one will accumulate more and more clinging to sati. That is why listening is emphasized so much. There is a Thai expression: understanding must get into your bones. Hearing this again and again, and considering this, yes, it works, it can get into one's bones. No thought about attending and observing, whatever dhamma appears, let it come. But no idea of having to watch it. It appears already by its own conditions. When the intellectual understanding is right it is time for awareness and understanding to arise. Just one more point. I value all three parts of the Tipitaka, I see the unity. I highly value the Suttanta. Nina. 34452 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Jul 6, 2004 10:12am Subject: latent tendency of sense desire. Hi Larry, Howard, I shall quote a little from my Yamaka (sixth Book of the Abhidhamma, not in English) and Co. study. I think it is a repost of what I quoted before, but it is fitting here. But first a few more points. The latent tendency of sense desire conditions the arising of akusala citta with lobha, and this can be accompanied by pleasant feeling or indifferent feeling. This akusala citta can have as object these feelings or other objects such as sense objects. Then it falls away but it conditions sense desire to go on as an accumulation. Therefore it is said: sense desire adheres to feeling, it adheres to other objects. Feeling is more coarse and it is predominant, it is more obvious. But sense desire also adheres to other dhammas. This will clarify that we do not only cling to feeling. We should not draw hasty conclusions merely because feeling is more coarse and thus more obvious. Quote from latent tendencies: <...when the latent tendency of sensuous desire arises, these two feelings are predominant over the other conascent dhammas because of the satisfaction obtained by the enjoyment of happiness and calm. Therefore the Buddha said, ŒHere the latent tendency adheres to these two kinds of feeling¹, so that those who are capable of being led to enlightenment (bhuddha veneyya) could realize happy feeling because its nature is coarse.² ³Surely, when the latent tendency of sensuous desire adheres on account of an object, it does not merely adhere to these two feelings and to the dhammas that are conascent with them. It also adheres to visible object that is desirable, and so on. The Buddha taught in the ŒBook of Analysis¹ (Ch 16, Analysis of Knowledge, 816, And what is the latent tendency of beings?): ŒThat which in the world is a lovely thing, pleasant thing (piyarúpa, såtarúpa), the latent tendency to sensuous desire of beings adheres to this....¹ ² With regard to the words ³The latent tendency of sensuous clinging adheres also to materiality and so on that is desirable.², this means, that the sensuous clinging that arises (because there is still the latent tendency of it) does not only have as object pleasant feeling, indifferent feeling and the dhammas that accompany those. It means that it can also have as object a lovely rúpa (piya rúpa) and a pleasant rúpa (såta rúpa). Thus, desirable nåma dhammas and rúpa dhammas can be the objects of sensuous desire. When sensuous desire arises and has as object desirable nåmas and rúpas, the accumulation of the latent tendency of sensuous desire continues. Therefore, the Buddha said, ³The latent tendency of sensuous desire adheres to a lovely rúpa (piya rúpa) and a pleasant rúpa (såta rúpa).²> End quote. This clarifies why there is clinging to such or such objects. We should not underestimate our latent tendencies that condition the arising of clinging. All the time more desire is added to the latent tendency of desire. Nina. 34453 From: icarofranca Date: Tue Jul 6, 2004 10:42am Subject: [dsg] Re: Abhidhamma Dear dav > Where on the internet do you find the vinaya & the book of analysis? >--------------------------------------------------------------------- - You can try the www.accesstoinsight.org, with a good english translation (Bhikkhu Nanamoli's) of the Vinaya's Mahavagga, The Patimokkha ( the Real Dhamma at Vinaya's scribes viewpoint) and the corrected days of the Uposatha. If you are already acquainted with the Pali language you can try the Pali Canon archives on the Journal of Buddhistic Ethics, the DhammaPortal at www.metta.lk or the beautiful, complete and unabridged tipitaka pali canon at www.tipitaka.org.Over there you will find the Vibhanga - The Book of Analysis, but unfortunately I don't know any version of this book on English or other western language. Don't fret and be brave! They are indeed good books, really worth of study! Good hunting and good reading!!! Mettaya, Ícaro > > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "icarofranca" > wrote: > > Hi Nina > > > > > N: Here the trouble could be in missing out the relevant > > >commentaries. The > > > Dhammasangani should be read together with the > Expositor > > >(Atthasaalinii). > > > Without this one may get lost. > > > > >----------------------------------------------------------------- - > - > > > > Very interesting! > > Despite my endemic lack of free time, I managed to download > > excerpts of the Vinaya at my Palm. I've read all the Mahavagga > Vinaya > > and now I've got a new and more accurate viewpoint of many aspects > of > > the Buddhadhamma. Its initial passages are a treasure of real > > understanding and lighted up a spotlight on many passages on > > Dhammasangani and other suttas. > > First of all, Buddha hadn't get his ideas out of nowhere: the > > everyday practice and a careful application of his own concepts > were > > paramount for the edification of his corpus of knowledge. One can > > catch up that the Dependent origination, the four Noble truths and > > the Three main modes of expression were the roots of all Buddha's > > effort to preach Dhamma and put it in practice ( the Mahavagga > makes > > the stand that the Patimokkha is the one and Real Dhamma of all, > > because its mandatory recitation in all Uposatha activities). > > There are also commentaries about the Mahavagga, written by > > Buddhaghosa ... I will check it out if I have got these at my own > > recollection of Buddhistic works!!!No single passage of suttas, > > vinaya, abhidhamma or commentaries can be spared off without lack > of > > understanding of the whole!!! > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ - > --- > > The Vibhanga, Book of Analysis, should be > > > read together with the Dispeller of Delusion (I and II). If you > > have time > > > and interest you could perhaps indicate where you find the Abh > > questionable > > > or superfluous. > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ - > -- > > > > Not ours for sure!!! > > > > Mettaya, Ícaro 34454 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Tue Jul 6, 2004 11:51am Subject: Re: Need clarification on a few subjects Hi Lee and all, Thank you for the message. Let me reply in context. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Dhammaasoka" wrote: > Dear Nina & Yu and others, > > > Yu, the Reverend stated that: > 1. The samatha and vipassana cannot be single out. Both should go hand > in hand. I am not quite sure exactly what it means by the statement above. What do you think it means? > 2. He quoted the pali term "sampajjano" from Maha Satipatthana as > knowing with discrning the anicca lakhana. In the Pali-English Dictionary http://dsal.uchicago.edu/dictionaries/pali/ we have the following definition: Sampajanna (p. 690) (nt.) [fr. sampajana, i. e. *sampajanya] attention, consideration, discrimination, comprehension, circumspection Different meditation teachers may have different interpretation on sampajañña. For examples, in Frames of Reference by Ajaan Lee Dhammadharo http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/thai/lee/frames.html Ajaan Lee explains sati, sampajañña, and atappa as following: 1. Sati: mindfulness; powers of reference. 2. Sampajañña: alertness. This has to be firmly in place before sending mindfulness out to refer to its object -- such as the body -- and then bringing it back inwards to refer to the heart. 3. Atappa: focused investigation, analyzing the object into its various aspects. whereas in The Path of Concentration & Mindfulness by Thanissaro Bhikkhu http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/modern/thanissaro/concmind.html Ajaan Thanissaro explains them as: As you do this, you develop three qualities of mind. One is mindfulness (sati). The term mindfulness means being able to remember, to keep something in mind. In the case of establishing the body as a frame of reference, it means being able to remember where you're supposed to be -- with the body -- and you don't let yourself forget. The second quality, alertness (sampajañña), means being aware of what is actually going on in the present. Are you with the body? Are you with the breath? Is the breath comfortable? Simply notice what's actually happening in the present moment. We tend to confuse mindfulness with alertness, but actually they are two separate things: mindfulness means being able to remember where you want to keep your awareness; alertness means being aware of what's actually happening. The third quality, ardency (atappa), means two things. One, if you realize that the mind has wandered off, you bring it right back. Immediately. You don't let it wander around, sniffing the flowers. Two, when the mind is with its proper frame of reference, ardency means trying to be as sensitive as possible to what's going on -- not just drifting in the present moment, but really trying to penetrate more and more into the subtle details of what's actually happening with the breath or the mind. I would say that the Buddha taught the guidelines of sati, sampajañña and atappa in meditation practice, the ajaans provide explanations about these guidelines, and it takes practice and exploration to develop experiential understanding regarding sati, sampajañña and atappa. > 3. He mentioned that we should discern body, feeling, mind and dhamma > (the four subject of satipatthana) through feeling. His discription > was, by watching the changes of the breath, we will be able to know > the states of mind and dhamma as well as the body. Does it work for you? If not, how do you go about doing it? > 4. He mentioned that we can't "see" our past lives according to sutta. What do you think about that? > Buddha teaches us to live now and then. The 11 ways of discerning is > merely for us to understand the aspect of dhamma. (This one I found > conflicting with the teachings of Pa Auk Sayadaw, so I am not sure) What are the teachings of Pa Auk Sayadaw? > 5. The Reverend mentioned discerning internally, externally, > internally and externally in the Maha Satipatthana sutta as discerning > the six door as internally and the six respective object as externally > and their relationship. He quoted one of the sutta that sound > something like "what is the internal world--the six door; what is the > external world--the six respective object" What do you think it should be? > 6. He mentioned that the one-pointedness only exists from 2nd Jhana > and onwards. 1st Jhana only have the four factors. (I have tried to > search for suttas that have clear mention of the five factors and I > have mentioned this to Rob.M as well. Rob.M found 1 sutta from Mn19 > and I found 1 sutta from DN111) Actually it is MN43. DN consists of thirty-four suttas. Which sutta did you find from DN? [snip] > Regards, > Lee Metta, Victor 34455 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Tue Jul 6, 2004 0:58pm Subject: yoniso manasikara (was Re: careful attention.) Hi Nina, Howard, and all, Forgive me for jumping into your discussion. Howard, you brought up the topic on careful attention, and that reminds me of the teaching on yoniso manasikara, or appropriate attention. The Buddha taught appropriate attention in Majjhima Nikaya 2 Sabbasava Sutta All the Fermentations http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/majjhima/mn002.html The passage relevant to the topic on appropriate attention would be too long for this message, so I will just quote the beginning part of it: The Blessed One said, "Monks, the ending of the fermentations is for one who knows & sees, I tell you, not for one who does not know & does not see. For one who knows what & sees what? Appropriate attention & inappropriate attention. When a monk attends inappropriately, unarisen fermentations arise, and arisen fermentations increase. When a monk attends appropriately, unarisen fermentations do not arise, and arisen fermentations are abandoned. Another discourse and it's notes that mention appropriate attention is the following: § 16. {Iti I.16; Iti 9} This was said by the Blessed One, said by the Arahant, so I have heard: "With regard to internal factors, I don't envision any other single factor like appropriate attention[1] as doing so much for a monk in training,[2] who has not attained the heart's goal but remains intent on the unsurpassed safety from bondage.[3] A monk who attends appropriately abandons what is unskillful and develops what is skillful. Appropriate attention as a quality of a monk in training: nothing else does so much for attaining the superlative goal. A monk, striving appropriately, attains the ending of stress. Notes: 1. Appropriate attention (yoniso manasikara) is the ability to focus attention on questions that lead to the end of suffering. MN 2 lists the following questions as not fit for attention: "Was I in the past? Was I not in the past? What was I in the past? How was I in the past?... Shall I be in the future? Shall I not be in the future? What shall I be in the future? How shall I be in the future?... Am I? Am I not? What am I? How am I? Where has this being come from? Where is it bound?" The discourse also lists the following issues as fit for attention: "This is stress. This is the origination of stress. This is the cessation of stress. This is the way leading to the cessation of stress." [Go back] 2. A person "in training" is one who has attained at least the first level of Awakening, but not yet the final level. [Go back] 3. Bondage = the four yokes: sensual passion, becoming, views, & ignorance. [Go back] Metta, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > Hi Howard, > op 05-07-2004 23:43 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: > > >> N: is not the way A. Sujin teaches. There could > >> be a self watching. > (snipped) > > Howard: > > Mundane knowledge of Dhamma certainly comes first. However, sati must > > be cultivated, leading, along with other factors, to pa~n~na. But perhaps I > > should have better said "careful attention" instead of "mindful watching". I > > do > > believe that it is central to Buddhist practice to *attempt* to carefully > > attend to what arises, observing it with as much clarity and equanimity as one > > can > > muster. > > ----------------------------------------------- > > True, through insight that is developed there comes a time that> > >> sati and pañña have become powers, balava vipassana. > >> > > ------------------------------------------------- > > Howard: > > But one must begin somewhere, and that somewhere is wherever one is > > *right now*, in a state of delusion and overwhelmed by sense of self and > > own-being. > N: You say: clarity and equanimity as one can muster>. Even though there is an > underlying idea of self no matter what we do, I still think that the > beginning must be right, otherwise one will accumulate more and more > clinging to sati. That is why listening is emphasized so much. There is a > Thai expression: understanding must get into your bones. there dhamma now? Seeing is dhamma, is there any understanding of it?> > Hearing this again and again, and considering this, yes, it works, it can > get into one's bones. No thought about attending and observing, whatever > dhamma appears, let it come. But no idea of having to watch it. It appears > already by its own conditions. When the intellectual understanding is right > it is time for awareness and understanding to arise. > Just one more point. I value all three parts of the Tipitaka, I see the > unity. I highly value the Suttanta. > Nina. 34456 From: Date: Tue Jul 6, 2004 10:33am Subject: Re: [dsg] On the topic of Sensation, Pleasure and Pain Hi, Jon - In a message dated 7/6/04 9:51:16 AM Eastern Daylight Time, upasaka@a... writes in reply to you: > >Unless I have misunderstood you, the pragmatic value you have identified > >indicates a specific 'advantage' in mindfulness of objects experienced > >through the body-door vs. mindfulness of objects through other > >sense-doors. > > > >However, if no such difference between the various foundations of > >mindfulness can be found in the texts, then perhaps the underlying > >idea/view should be questioned. > > > ---------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Perhaps so. Perhaps there is no advantage there. (But no harm either, > of course.) Certainly, with respect to any sense door insight into the > tilakkhana can arise. > --------------------------------------------- > =========================== Again, there may indeed be no advantage at all even if the theory that non-neutral vedana issues forth only from contact with bodily sensation, but I still tend to think there *is* an advantage. When there is heightened attention directed towards bodily sensation, given that such sensation is the source of non-neutral vedana and that attention is "focussed" at that very point, vedanupassana would tend to arise as well. Moreover, inasmuch, according to the same theory, as mindstate frequently produces bodily sensation, attention to bodily sensation makes it easier to pick up on the closely preceding and causative mindstate. Thus it would seem that should the theory be true, a big "if" of course, then mindfulness of bodily sensation may also tend towards mindfulness of the second and third foundations of mindfulness, and when these three reach their pinnacle, then the fourth foundation of mindfulness (involving direct awareness of such things as the tilakkhana, the four noble truhs, and dependent origination) would come into play. Again, this is all hypothesizing, Jon, and I agree that there is nowhere in any sutta that I have read any of this addressed. All that I have noticed is the close relatioj in the suttas between sensation and vedana, and the great emphasis placed on mindfulness of the body, which is suggestive, but nothing more. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 34457 From: Philip Date: Tue Jul 6, 2004 3:00pm Subject: Go ahead and rain! Hello all I'll be signing off for 6 weeks or so. A couple of weeks to concentrate on a writing project, then off to Canada for a holiday. Many thanks to you all for the help you've given me, and especially to Nina for her books. Re-reading the chapter entitled "Life" in Buddhism in Daily Life recently, I was intrigued by the Theragata/ Therigata, the Verses of the Elder Monks/Nuns. I'd never seen such personal poetry in the Dhamma before and went to Access to Insight to learn more about this part of the tipitaka. There is found this, the first verse in the Thergata: "My hut is roofed, comfortable, free of drafts; my mind, well-centered, set free. I remain ardent. So, rain-deva. Go ahead & rain." Now, I remember having come across this before somehwere, perhaps a year ago, before I came to DSG. And I can remember that at that time, I took "ardent" to mean filled with loving-kindness that could dispel all the woes of life, and also thought about focusing on the breath in a way that would shelter me. I was wrong. Now I feel that "ardent" reflects the right effort that is looking at realities in the moment, having both wholesome and unwholesome mental states/moments as objects of awareness, and not being thrown into unskillful deeds by either of them, because I have begun to see that they are not self and will fall away soon enough, to be replaced by other mental states/moments that arise in a conditioned way beyond my control. It can rain, and will rain, but now I have begun - just begun- to see rain for what it really is, and the citta processes that it causes to arise. And I see in this one example how much I have learned in the 6 months since I happened across DSG. Many thanks. This summer I'll be reading the Manual of Abdhidhamma and Rob's book and re-reading ADL - and examining realities in the present moment in the place where I spent summers as a child. That should be interesting. Wishing you all a pleasant summer. Metta, Phil 34458 From: Herman Hofman Date: Tue Jul 6, 2004 4:29pm Subject: The Sutta of Thomas the Tank Engine Thus have I heard. The fat controller had a nervous breakdown today. All the trains were going too fast for him, there were too many of them, he just couldn't keep track of them all, but worst of all, they wouldn't keep to the timetable he had so carefully drawn up. If only there were more of me, he mused in his freshly starched hospital gown. Edward (the other trains called him panna) couldn't understand it. He always did the parallel run with Thomas (the other trains called him citta). They left the station together and arrived at their destination together. As far as they were concerned, neither of them had any velocity relative to each other. Every time Edward looked, Thomas was there. Thomas wasn't too fast and he wasn't too slow. No problems at all. Edward didn't have to hurry himself or slow down to see all of Thomas' fine lakkhana. The trains secretly wondered why there was a fat controller at all. They knew he didn't actually do anything. They knew that timetables were a waste of paper, because trains always run in their own time. Really, the fat controller was a nervous breakdown waiting to happen. The boys had a bit of whip-around for the fat controller, and bought him a telephone book. He loved it, and memorised it from cover to cover. He was last seen reciting from memory all the S's between Simpkins to Smythe-Upjohn, with all the relevant numbers, to the tune of "London Bridge is falling down". I'd hate to be a nutter (anatta), he thought. 34459 From: Date: Tue Jul 6, 2004 0:29pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: careful attention. Hi, Nina - In a message dated 7/6/04 1:13:24 PM Eastern Daylight Time, nilo@e... writes: > >------------------------------------------------- > >Howard: > >But one must begin somewhere, and that somewhere is wherever one is > >*right now*, in a state of delusion and overwhelmed by sense of self and > >own-being. > N: You say: clarity and equanimity as one can muster>. Even though there is an > underlying idea of self no matter what we do, I still think that the > beginning must be right, otherwise one will accumulate more and more > clinging to sati. That is why listening is emphasized so much. There is a > Thai expression: understanding must get into your bones. there dhamma now? Seeing is dhamma, is there any understanding of it?> > Hearing this again and again, and considering this, yes, it works, it can > get into one's bones. No thought about attending and observing, whatever > dhamma appears, let it come. But no idea of having to watch it. It appears > already by its own conditions. When the intellectual understanding is right > it is time for awareness and understanding to arise. > Just one more point. I value all three parts of the Tipitaka, I see the > unity. I highly value the Suttanta. > Nina. > ================================== Nina, you wrote "I still think that the beginning must be right, otherwise one will accumulate more and more clinging to sati. That is why listening is emphasized so much," and you also said "When the intellectual understanding is right it is time for awareness and understanding to arise." I very much agree with the first of these two assertions. We can't go on a journey blindfolded. With regard to the second assertion, while I agree that intellectual understanding is of inestimable value, I do *not* think that it, by itself, is sufficient "for awareness and understanding to arise." That is not what the buddha taught. It is an important, supportive factor, but it is not the whole story. (I am not maintaining that you say it is "the whole story" either - I'm just pointing out that it is not.) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 34460 From: Date: Tue Jul 6, 2004 0:36pm Subject: Re: [dsg] yoniso manasikara (was Re: careful attention.) Thank you, Victor! Much appreciated. :-) With metta,, Howard In a message dated 7/6/04 4:02:09 PM Eastern Daylight Time, yu_zhonghao@y... writes: > Hi Nina, Howard, and all, > > Forgive me for jumping into your discussion. > > Howard, you brought up the topic on careful attention, and that > reminds me of the teaching on yoniso manasikara, or appropriate > attention. The Buddha taught appropriate attention in > Majjhima Nikaya 2 > Sabbasava Sutta > All the Fermentations > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/majjhima/mn002.html > > The passage relevant to the topic on appropriate attention would be > too long for this message, so I will just quote the beginning part > of it: > > > The Blessed One said, "Monks, the ending of the fermentations is for > one who knows &sees, I tell you, not for one who does not know & > does not see. For one who knows what &sees what? Appropriate > attention &inappropriate attention. When a monk attends > inappropriately, unarisen fermentations arise, and arisen > fermentations increase. When a monk attends appropriately, unarisen > fermentations do not arise, and arisen fermentations are abandoned. > > > Another discourse and it's notes that mention appropriate attention > is the following: > > § 16. {Iti I.16; Iti 9} > This was said by the Blessed One, said by the Arahant, so I have > heard: "With regard to internal factors, I don't envision any other > single factor like appropriate attention[1] as doing so much for a > monk in training,[2] who has not attained the heart's goal but > remains intent on the unsurpassed safety from bondage.[3] A monk who > attends appropriately abandons what is unskillful and develops what > is skillful. > > Appropriate attention > as a quality > of a monk in training: > nothing else > does so much > for attaining the superlative goal. > A monk, striving appropriately, > attains the ending of stress. > > Notes: > 1. Appropriate attention (yoniso manasikara) is the ability to focus > attention on questions that lead to the end of suffering. MN 2 lists > the following questions as not fit for attention: "Was I in the > past? Was I not in the past? What was I in the past? How was I in > the past?... Shall I be in the future? Shall I not be in the future? > What shall I be in the future? How shall I be in the future?... Am > I? Am I not? What am I? How am I? Where has this being come from? > Where is it bound?" The discourse also lists the following issues as > fit for attention: "This is stress. This is the origination of > stress. This is the cessation of stress. This is the way leading to > the cessation of stress." [Go back] > > 2. A person "in training" is one who has attained at least the first > level of Awakening, but not yet the final level. [Go back] > > 3. Bondage = the four yokes: sensual passion, becoming, views, & > ignorance. [Go back] > > > Metta, > Victor > > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 34461 From: Date: Tue Jul 6, 2004 4:49pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism.XIV 84, feelings Nina: "If we do not know feeling as pure nama it will always be my feeling, we shall not reach the goal." Hi Nina, This I agree. So, if we take desire with pleasant feeling the feeling seems to have a subtle bodily tension with it. I guess abhidhamma is useless in telling how this can be but the point is that this bodily tension is rupa, not feeling. So if we extract the rupa element what is left? Let us LOOK by all means. Insight will not arise if we do not look. When belief in self arises we can recognize that as what it is. It is only an obstacle if we refuse to look. Larry 34462 From: buddhatrue Date: Tue Jul 6, 2004 5:52pm Subject: Re: Monk, bail out this boat... Friend Sarah, Sarah: Firstly, I hope you have a great holiday (In Egypt??) James: Thank you, I did. Yes, I went to Alexandria and Sharm El Sheikh in Egypt. Sarah: However, you wanted sutta detail only, so I tried to oblige, but that was the best I could do without more time or greater familiarity with more suttas. James: Thank you for your efforts and I understand. I just hope that you will understand my point that it shouldn't be difficult to pinpoint this information outside of the commentaries. This is a pretty significant issue. If the sotapanna does truly eradicate jealousy, I think the Buddha would have said so very plainly. Wouldn't it be very important for his monks to know that? I think so. After all, if during the practice of mindfulness they ever sensed the feelings of jealousy arising, they would then know that they hadn't achieved the first stage of stream entry. Sarah: In the suttas, a lot of the detail about stages of enlightenment, enlightenment itself etc is kept to a minimum. James: How do you know this? Your implication is that it is intentional. I believe that you have been conditioned to believe this because the suttas don't give as much detail as the commentaries by Buddhaghosa. Sarah: Those who listened and understood the teachings didn't need to hear this. James: Again, I think the eradication of jealousy is a pretty significant issue that they would need to hear about. Why do you think it isn't significant? Wouldn't it be a pretty clear benchmark to determine one's progress? Sarah: I'm not sure the sutta is particularly talking about jealousy as opposed to just aversion and grief. James: You must have a different definition for jealousy than I do. For example, if you saw Jon flirting with a pretty girl, and you felt upset about that, wouldn't that be jealousy? (Which I'm sure wouldn't happen!! ;-)) I know that jealousy can be envy, but it can also be of the type the Buddha described in that sutta. Hmmmm…now I am not sure if we are both discussing the same thing or not. Sarah: As you say, only an arahant has eradicated the last remnants of attachment, but long before this, attachment to sense pleasures have been eradicated and long before this, courser attachments, such as those with wrong views conditioning jealousy have been eradicated. James: I am not quite sure what you are referring to. Attachment to sense pleasures is eradicated in the non-returner; which I am not sure I would describe this stage as `long before' enlightenment. And again, I haven't seen where the Buddha said that the conditions for jealousy are eradicated earlier. Sarah: For worldlings like us it's true, but without wrong views, the attachments are not so damaging and no conditions for jealousy any more. Gradually the defilements can be understood and worn away. James: I don't follow your meaning here. Sarah: Some mind states arise together and some don't just like different soup mixes. Just as you can't add tomatoes to traditional onion soup (I think??), there can't be jealousy with pleasant feeling or wisdom, for example. However, following the moments of jealousy, there can be wisdom with pleasant feeling which `knows' the jealousy just experienced. Nina explained more on this. James: I don't know where Nina explained about this. I will look for the post later. Frankly, I don't know if I agree with this or disagree. I can see both sides of the issue. Mental states are very complicated and I think we are starting to approach them in a rather cavalier manner. For example, what about schizophrenia and other emotional disorders? What about the subconscious? How are these issues addressed in the Abhidhamma? To my knowledge they aren't and that makes the Abhidhamma an incomplete model of human emotion. Metta, James 34463 From: agriosinski Date: Tue Jul 6, 2004 6:52pm Subject: Re: Go ahead and rain! --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Philip" wrote: [..] > > Wishing you all a pleasant summer. > > Metta, > Phil If you heading to Ontario, take some warm clothing with you. We have quite cold but still pleasant evenings and nights. Some rain as well, but who cares... Have fun time in Canada, metta, Agrios 34464 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Jul 6, 2004 9:11pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Need clarification on a few subjects Dear Lee, op 06-07-2004 07:50 schreef Dhammaasoka op dasoka@n...: > 1. Firstly, do we discerning the anicca lakhana when we are in Jhana? >> N: The jhanacittas have absorption concentration with pañña on one > of the meditation subjects of samatha. anicca lakhana is the object of > vipassana. > L: I understand it as in the state of samatha there is no discrnment > of anicca lakhana. Am I understand it correctly? N: Yes. >> L: 2. What does sampajjano actually mean? Is it just knowing the > object or with discernment on anicca? >> N: with sampajañña or pañña (another term for sampajañña), that can > be of the level of samatha or of vipassana. So it depends what the > object is. If it is the realization of impermanence it is vipassana pañña. > L: OK, I was not so sure about this at first as the Abhidhamma defines > "Sampajjanna" with panna etc. So, when we talk about the satipatthana, > the object is for the development of vipassana only and not samatha? N: Yes. Even when we read in the satipatthana sutta about breath the objective is vipassana, insight in the three characteristics. Or when we reda about jhanacitta: jhanacitta should be realized as non-self. >> L: 3. Is the samatha and vipassana actually go together and can't be > single out during our practice in satipatthana? (Without any magga or > phala-citta) >> N: When vipassana is developed there is also calm, samatha, with the > citta. The factors of the eightfold Path which are samadhi, sati and > right effort are actually the concentration of the eightfold Path. But > mind: the object is a nama or rupa that appears. The term: our > practice in satipatthana is confusing. It seems that there is a set > time, whereas satipatthana is just the development of understanding of > any, any reality that appears now, no matter where we are. Any object, > also akusala! > L: I think I used the wrong word that I actually intended. The subject > should be Jhana and Vipassana. Anyway, thanks for the valueble input. N: Jhana is to be object of insight. With insight one should realize the different jhanafactors as namas. >> L: . The 11 ways of discerning the dhamma (pass, current, future, > far, near... etc.) mentioned in suttas is for the purpose of > understanding that the dhamma is always the same in every aspect and > not meant for real discernment? >> N: These 11 ways are said of the five khandhas, they are past > present, future, near, far, coarse, subtle, etc . What has a past, > present and future arises and falls away, it is impermanent. They are > objects of understanding, they are another way of presenting the > ultimate realities of citta, cetasika and rupa (not for the reverend!). > L: Is it mean we can no way discerning the past nama and rupa? As I > noticed that Pa Auk Sayadaw actually teaches students to discern the > past and future. N: The nama or rupa that appears at the present is the object of insight. >> L: 5. When Buddha mentioned that discern internally, discern > externally, discern internally and externally in the Maha Satipatthana > sutta, does He means discerning the six door as internally and the > six respective object as externally and their relationship or process > and internally and externally, or, does Buddha refer internally to > ourselves and externally to others? >> N: As I understand, the last one. You may be touching another's body > and then just hardness presents itself, no person. Or the other > person's sadness appears, this brings you back to your own citta, and > the way you feel about his sadness. It is a reminder. All these > aspects are reminders to bring you back to nama and rupa now. > L: Although I have the same choice as you but I define it as discen > the khandhas of ourselves and others through vipassana. (Even without > direct touching) N: The touching as an example of realizing hardness as a rupa, not mine or self. > >> L: 6. When Buddha said discerning the body as body, feeling as > feeling ...etc, do we discern the body, feeling, cittas and dhamma > through feeling? As the reverend said, through feeling that we feel > the existence of the body, through the feeling we notice the state of > mind and the dhamma as well. Is it the way interpreting the sutta? >> N: No, I do not see it this way. It is sati that is aware and pañña > that understands. Understanding has to be emphasized all the time. It > has to be sharp and keen, and know precisely the nama or rupa that > appears through one of the six doors, one at a time. > L: From the dhiscussion with one of my friend, he said the REverend > might be using the view point of Goenka ji. > >> L: The reverend only accept words from Nikayas and not other than > that. :) >> N: I see! We need not mention any sources, let us just talk about > realities. We can call them in terms of the khandhas. > L: But it is quite difficult to ensure and to be ensured which one is > reality! :) People will usually quotes sayings of the Buddha as their > authority of their teachings. N: But rupakkhandha is rupa, the other four are nama. Maybe the conversation can be about the khandhas, instead of nama and rupa if that is more acceptable. Nina. 34465 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Wed Jul 7, 2004 9:03am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Abhidhamma Hi, Howard --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Nina - > > In a message dated 7/5/04 1:59:54 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > nilo@e... > writes: > > > Hi Howard, > -------------------------------------------------- > If you have time> > > and interest you could perhaps indicate where you find the Abh > questionable > > or superfluous. > ------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Well, I've raised such matters before, several times, and I'd > rather > not overly get into that. What is useful (as I see it) in the Abhidhamma > far > outweighs what might be viewed by some as superfluous. > ------------------------------------------------ As far as I recall, you've made comments several times about the Abhidhamma, but have declined to specify when invited to do so, as you again do here. Just a personal view, Howard, but if you are inclined to make general comments on the list questioning any part of the teachings, I think you should be prepared to give details if asked to do so. Jon 34466 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Wed Jul 7, 2004 9:17am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Abhidhamma Hi, Herman You say: > Awareness of the present moment rises and falls with it. One needs to be > quiet to see the ego struggle with its non-existence. I think you have mentioned the theme of 'quietness' in previous posts. I'd be interested to hear more about it. I know it has quite a role in some contemplative orders. Worth discussing further. Also your concept of 'mental silence'. Could you elaborate a little? One further comment. --- Herman Hofman wrote: ... > Some take pride in how wordy the Abhidhamma is. Yet when there is > awareness of the primary source of the Abhidhamma (reality) there is not > a single word in sight !!! Strange indeed that it should take so many > words to describe something so totally non-verbal. The present moment is > such a living, fluctuating reality, yet someone imagined this could be > captured in a valley of dry bones. Weird, totally weird. Do you then make a distinction between the suttas and the abhidhamma in this regard? Both are talking about the same truths, surely. > Some take pride in how difficult it is to master the Abhidhamma, they > take pride in just how many commentaries, and which ones, are necessary > to shed light on the intricate and subtle meanings in this great > intellectual masterpiece. And yet, somehow untangling this web of words > is considered a safer bet than mental silence, because in mental silence > there could be a self?? > > Awareness of the present moment rises and falls with it. One needs to be > quiet to see the ego struggle with its non-existence. Jon 34467 From: Date: Wed Jul 7, 2004 5:18am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Need clarification on a few subjects In a message dated 7/6/04 12:27:03 PM Pacific Daylight Time, yu_zhonghao@y... writes: > Yu, the Reverend stated that: > 1. The samatha and vipassana cannot be single out. Both should go hand > in hand. ===== I think this is a fairly common view among Thera teachers. It follows the teachings in the Anapanasati Sutta. Samatha and vipassana are aspects of bhavana (mental development) and were not singled out in the original teachings. In their view, the Buddha taught bhavana as a method . jack 34468 From: icarofranca Date: Wed Jul 7, 2004 10:17am Subject: From Palm Leaves to Palm Top, The Human Adventure is Just Beginning Hello, Noble Company of Dhamma Fellows! Some time ago I've bought a Palm Top - a personal portable Computer, also named handheld. After the basics on transfering files to main Computer, converting .doc and .pdf files and so on, I eagerly begun to gather up all files about theravada buddhism around the net, compact and transfer them to my gadget with all skills of the art. And now I can carry with me all suttas,vinayas, abhidhamma treatises, Tiikas and Theravada books as the Patiika and the Ledi Sayadaw's manuals, easily, without effort or cumbersome delay. I am sitting inside the bus, for example,and at the half and a quarter of hour nama and rupa rises and falls on my sensedoors while I read the Mahavagga, the Patiika, the Uposatha Sila and build up my culture with the best of the teachings: the own Buddhadhamma. I think about the first palm leaves' texts and about the very effort to preserve them from climate, fungus, insects and so on: it were a great adventure for itself, worth and sublime by its own ways! I do preserve also the wholeness of my palm Top, keeping it clean and functional at all means and I do feel I am really inside the stream of the true Dhamma!!! The advantages of having gadgets, at american way!!! The only buddhistic texts I haven't yet put inside my palm Top are the Nina van Gorkon's works, with all their exquisite, unique and dutch way to preaching Dhamma: I am afraid to burn up the circuits of the poor machine!!!! From palm leaves to palm Top: The Human Adventure is Just beginning... take the first star right at the horizon and go ahead, helmsman!!!! Mettaya, Ícaro 34469 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Wed Jul 7, 2004 10:44am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Abhidhamma Hi again, Howard Apologies if my earlier post sounded a bit curt - sent in a hurry from the internet bar, which I've just popped back to for a moment. I've been enjoying your posts lately, and did not mean to suggest that you should feel any need to elaborate ;-)). The loud music here is driving me crazy, so I won't talk further right now. Jon --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Hi, Howard > ... > As far as I recall, you've made comments several times about the > Abhidhamma, but have declined to specify when invited to do so, as you > again do here. > > Just a personal view, Howard, but if you are inclined to make general > comments on the list questioning any part of the teachings, I think you > should be prepared to give details if asked to do so. > > Jon 34470 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Jul 7, 2004 10:52am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Abhidhamma Dear Icaro, yes, P.T.S. ed. by Thi.t.tila. Nina. op 06-07-2004 19:42 schreef icarofranca op icarofranca@y...: > The Book of Analysis, but unfortunately I > don't know any version of this book on English or other western > language. 34471 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Jul 7, 2004 10:52am Subject: kamma and vipaka Hi Larry and all, I was studying co relating to the tiika about kamma and vipaka and learnt something that impressed me very much. It is explained in the tiika and other commentaries that kammas of different degrees produce rebirth and vipaka during life accordingly. A kamma performed by kusala citta with three roots (thus with wisdom) can be of different degrees: excellent and low. And this was new: when akusala cittas arise before the kusala citta or after it (when you regret the giving afterwards) it conditions the kusala kamma to be less excellent and it renders a lesser vipaka, even rebirth with only two roots. I said to Lodewijk: How intricate is kamma and vipaka, really the field of Buddhas. Lodewijk: And what are we doing meanwhile? Nina: developing understanding of nama and rupa now, these can be known and understood. Today was busy with our regular sutta reading on the Pali list, a bhikkhu is translating for us. Also about beings who fare according to their kammas. Larry, I am still trying to figure out how to answer you, and what the problem is. It depends on my time, I shall see. Today was also my latent tendencies study day. Nina. 34472 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Jul 7, 2004 10:52am Subject: Re: [dsg] Go ahead and rain! Hello Philip, Have nice holidays and good reading, writing and studying. It will be empty here without you! Best wishes, Nina. op 07-07-2004 00:00 schreef Philip op plnao@j...: > I'll be signing off for 6 weeks or so. 34473 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Jul 7, 2004 10:52am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism.XIV 84, feelings op 07-07-2004 01:49 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > Nina: "If we do not know feeling as pure nama it will always be my > feeling, we shall not reach the goal." L: This I agree. So, if we take desire with pleasant feeling the feeling > seems to have a subtle bodily tension with it. I guess abhidhamma is > useless in telling how this can be but the point is that this bodily > tension is rupa, not feeling. So if we extract the rupa element what is > left? N: Very good. Only pure nama! It is body-consciousness accompanied by bodily feeling, or thinking about it, or lobha and pleasant feeling, etc. A. Sujin also explains it in the way you do. She says, if you take away all rupas it is as if we are in the arupa brahma plane: only namas. L: Let us LOOK by all means. Insight will not arise if we do not look. When > belief in self arises we can recognize that as what it is. It is only an > obstacle if we refuse to look. N: It depends on the kind of looking, unknowingly it can be an idea of self that looks. Or a kind of focussing, and then there is fixation, we get stuck, we are not open to other realities that appear, such as seeing or hearing. We miss them all. Lobha always takes us away from the present object. The Abhidhamma is essential in explaining anatta. Nama and rupa are unimportant, only elements. Nobody can cause their arising or prevent them from arising or push them away. I tried to explain different dhammas in different processes to entangle this tangle. It *seems* that when there is desire with pleasant feeling the feeling seems to have a subtle bodily tension with it, as you say. Let us not be mistaken by what *seems*. Different phenomena in different processes, quite a tangle. We should not confuse bodily feelings and mental feelings, and also bodily feeling is nama. I tried different angles with you to explain matters. I find watching bodily sensations not a good idea, that is why I said: do not over emphasize bodily feelings. When reading the satipatthana sutta, mindfulness of breathing: the meditator has to be aware also of nama, you remember? The Co states that he has to understand dependent origination beginning with ignorance. He Thus, when we hear: mindfulness of the body we should have right understanding. Also nama has to be known. How can one know what rupa is if one does not know what nama is. As to the Abhidhamma: the Buddha did not teach this to make things difficult for us, to cause us to have problems, but only to help us. But the Abhidhamma is not a handbook that solves every problem, every detail of an individual's life, then you expect too much. We have to develop our own understanding with the help of the Tipitaka. What I heard: Also: just investigate different characteristics of nama and rupa one at a time, and do not think of any location where it appears. If that is so, we are only thinking and we do not attend to characteristics. Thus, this is important, do not think of a location where a rupa appears. Another remark: all the things we used to find so important, our fears, happiness, attachment, aversion, worry, these are only dhammas and they are all equal in that sense. Where are they now? They have passed. Then I tried the angle of latent tendencies, to show conditions, and also the fact that we do not just cling to feelings, but to all objects. I do not know whether you have other questions, or whether I answered your questions. Nina. 34474 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Wed Jul 7, 2004 10:53am Subject: [dsg] Re: Abhidhamma Hi all, I was checking out some of the useful posts to see what others say about Abhidhamma and found the following: "These are realities of your daily life. This is the study of Abhidhamma. The Abhdidhamma explains in detail about all these realities and it shows the conditions for all that happens in your life, it shows cause and effect." http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/5379 "In the Abhidhamma all realities are classified fully and in all details." http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/11308 "The Abhidhamma is not theory, it explains everything that is real and that appears in our daily life." http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/11308 "The Abhidhamma gives us all details about citta, cetasika and rupa, and all their intricate conditions." http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/19456 "Then, we have to know what Abhidhamma is. It is the Buddha's teaching about ultimate realities and these are exactly the objects of insight." http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/22809 "Well all this is about ultimate realities, it is Abhidhamma." http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/22809 Metta, Victor 34475 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Wed Jul 7, 2004 10:59am Subject: Re: [dsg] dialogue about kusala. Dear Nina and Lodewijk (and Phil at the end) I read this post (and a few others) out to my mother in law, Kate. Firstly, she sends her ragards to you both, and is sorry not to have met you (having spent some time with K. Sujin). On this post, Kate wondered why we talk so much about kusala. She thinks that taking enjoyment in the mountain views and the wild-flowers is beneficial ('food for the soul', she calls it) and can't be bad, although she can see that enjoying food, for example, is self-centred. After hearing about 'developed mind' she also commented that her own mind was very untrained, and moved around all the time. Sarah assured her it was the same for us too, but I'm not sure she was convinced! Look forward to hearing more of your discussions with Lodewijk. Jon PS Phil, we'll miss you very much while you're away. Hope you can manage to pop in from time to time. Have a good holiday. --- nina van gorkom wrote: > Dialogue about kusala with Lodewijk. ... > The Expositor speaks about being well trained by constant practice of > good > as a condition for the arising of kusala citta. One of the conditions is > also reading a sutta that instills confidence. Lodewijk read a sutta > that > impressed him very much: Gradual Sayings Book of the Ones, no 1: other > thing do I know, O monks, that is so intractable as an undeveloped mind. > An > undeveloped mind is, indeed, an intractible thing. > No other thing do I know, O monks, that is so tractable as a developed > mind. > A developed mind is, indeed, an tractible thing.> 34476 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Wed Jul 7, 2004 11:35am Subject: Metaphysics (Re: Abhidhamma) Hi all, Here is also some information on metaphysics and ontology: Metaphysics is a branch of philosophy, and related to the natural sciences, like physics, psychology and the biology of the brain; and also to mysticism and religious and spiritual subjects. It is notoriously difficult to define, but for purposes of briefly introducing it to nonphilosophers, it can be identified as the study of any of the most fundamental concepts and beliefs about the basic nature of reality, on which many other concepts and beliefs rest -- concepts such as being, existence, universal, property, relation, causation, space, time, event, and many others. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metaphysics "What exists", "What is", "What am I", "What is describing this to me", are all examples of questions about being, and highlight the most basic problem in ontology: finding a subject, a relationship, and an object to talk about. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ontology metaphysics Branch of philosophy that studies the ultimate structure and constitution of reality-i.e., of that which is real, insofar as it is real. http://www.britannica.com/ebc/article?eu=397280&query=metaphysics&ct= ontology the theory or study of being as such; i.e., of the basic characteristics of all reality. http://www.britannica.com/eb/article? eu=58583&tocid=0&query=ontology&ct= Metta, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "yu_zhonghao" wrote: > Hi all, > > I was checking out some of the useful posts to see what others say > about Abhidhamma and found the following: > > "These are realities of your daily life. This is the study of > Abhidhamma. The Abhdidhamma explains in detail about all these > realities and it shows the conditions for all that happens in your > life, it shows cause and effect." > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/5379 > > "In the Abhidhamma all realities are classified fully and in all > details." > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/11308 > > "The Abhidhamma is not theory, it explains everything that is real > and that appears in our daily life." > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/11308 > > "The Abhidhamma gives us all details about citta, cetasika and rupa, > and all their intricate conditions." > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/19456 > > "Then, we have to know what Abhidhamma is. It is the Buddha's > teaching about ultimate realities and these are exactly the objects > of insight." > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/22809 > > "Well all this is about ultimate realities, it is Abhidhamma." > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/22809 > > Metta, > Victor 34477 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Wed Jul 7, 2004 11:52am Subject: Metaphysics (Re: Abhidhamma) Hi all, Again, here is some info about ontology, In philosophy, ontology, is the most fundamental branch of metaphysics. It is the study of being or existence as well as the basic categories thereof. It has strong implications for the conceptions of reality. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ontology Metta, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "yu_zhonghao" wrote: > Hi all, > > Here is also some information on metaphysics and ontology: > > > Metaphysics is a branch of philosophy, and related to the natural > sciences, like physics, psychology and the biology of the brain; and > also to mysticism and religious and spiritual subjects. It is > notoriously difficult to define, but for purposes of briefly > introducing it to nonphilosophers, it can be identified as the study > of any of the most fundamental concepts and beliefs about the basic > nature of reality, on which many other concepts and beliefs rest -- > concepts such as being, existence, universal, property, relation, > causation, space, time, event, and many others. > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metaphysics > > > "What exists", "What is", "What am I", "What is describing this to > me", are all examples of questions about being, and highlight the > most basic problem in ontology: finding a subject, a relationship, > and an object to talk about. > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ontology > > metaphysics > > Branch of philosophy that studies the ultimate structure and > constitution of reality-i.e., of that which is real, insofar as it > is real. > > http://www.britannica.com/ebc/article? eu=397280&query=metaphysics&ct= > > ontology > > the theory or study of being as such; i.e., of the basic > characteristics of all reality. > > http://www.britannica.com/eb/article? > eu=58583&tocid=0&query=ontology&ct= > > Metta, > Victor > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "yu_zhonghao" > wrote: > > Hi all, > > > > I was checking out some of the useful posts to see what others say > > about Abhidhamma and found the following: > > > > "These are realities of your daily life. This is the study of > > Abhidhamma. The Abhdidhamma explains in detail about all these > > realities and it shows the conditions for all that happens in your > > life, it shows cause and effect." > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/5379 > > > > "In the Abhidhamma all realities are classified fully and in all > > details." > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/11308 > > > > "The Abhidhamma is not theory, it explains everything that is real > > and that appears in our daily life." > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/11308 > > > > "The Abhidhamma gives us all details about citta, cetasika and > rupa, > > and all their intricate conditions." > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/19456 > > > > "Then, we have to know what Abhidhamma is. It is the Buddha's > > teaching about ultimate realities and these are exactly the > objects > > of insight." > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/22809 > > > > "Well all this is about ultimate realities, it is Abhidhamma." > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/22809 > > > > Metta, > > Victor 34478 From: Philip Date: Wed Jul 7, 2004 2:35pm Subject: Re: Go ahead and rain! Hi Agrios, Nina, Jon and all. I'll be in my native Quebec, Agrios. You know, though it's my native territory I've come to see it in a new light thanks to Acaya. I'll be looking for that profound moose. Thanks also, Nina and Jon. There's never been a computer at the family summer place, but that may have changed in the 6 years since I've been there. Or maybe I'll be able to get on to someone else's computer and pop in to give a report. In any case, we know how quickly 6 weeks fly by. Metta, Phil --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "agriosinski" wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Philip" wrote: > [..] > > > > Wishing you all a pleasant summer. > > > > Metta, > > Phil > > If you heading to Ontario, take some warm clothing with you. > We have quite cold but still pleasant evenings and nights. > Some rain as well, but who cares... > > Have fun time in Canada, > > metta, > Agrios 34479 From: nori Date: Wed Jul 7, 2004 4:02pm Subject: Re: [dsg] On the topic of Sensation, Pleasure and Pain Hi victor & jon, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "yu_zhonghao" wrote: > Hi Nori, > [1] > Majjhima Nikaya 66 > Latukikopama Sutta > The Quail Simile > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/majjhima/mn066.html > > "And, Udayin, there are these five strings of sensuality. Which > five? Forms cognizable via the eye -- agreeable, pleasing, charming, > endearing, fostering desire, enticing. Sounds cognizable via the > ear... Aromas cognizable via the nose... Flavors cognizable via the > tongue... Tactile sensations cognizable via the body -- agreeable, > pleasing, charming, endearing, fostering desire, enticing. These are > the five strings of sensuality. Now, any pleasure & happiness that > arises dependent on these five strings of sensuality is called > sensual pleasure, a filthy pleasure, a run-of-the-mill pleasure, an > ignoble pleasure. And of this pleasure I say that it is not to be > cultivated, not to be developed, not to be pursued, that it is to be > feared. > So what do you think Gotama the Buddha was experiencing in the following excerpts considering the above ? Maha Parinibbana Suttanta D.ii.115, PTS 41. 'On one occasion, Ananda, I was dwelling at Rajagaha, on the hill called the Vulture's Peak. Now there, Ananda, I spoke to thee and said: "How pleasent a spot, Ananda, is Rajagaha; how pleasent is Vulture's Peak." 47. 'And now today, Ananda, at the Chapala Shrine, I spoke to thee and said:-"How delightful a spot, Ananda, is Vesali, how charming the Udena Shrine, and the Gotamaka Shrine and the Shrine of the Seven Mangoes..." Now gotama the arahant Buddha, has he not developed equanimity ? Should not a sewer or charnel ground be no more or less pleasent than Vesali ? Why do you think in one case he teaches: "... Forms cognizable via the eye -- agreeable, pleasing, charming,... these ... is called sensual pleasure, a filthy pleasure, a run-of-the-mill pleasure, an ignoble pleasure." .. and at another moment he says: "How delightful a spot, Ananda, is Vesali, how charming the Udena Shrine..." ? nori 34480 From: Herman Hofman Date: Wed Jul 7, 2004 4:17pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Abhidhamma Hi Jon, I sincerely hope Sarah, you and her Mum are having a good time. I'd hate to think you guys have gone to all the effort of going half-way round the world just to watch the transit of paticasamapuddha :-). Namas and rupas are much the same all round the world, perhaps they are a bit fresher in Switzerland :-) I'm sorry to be butting in on your chat with Howard, but.... If a commentary or other secondary work, which purports to draw out the meanings of a primary source, introduces material not found in the primary source, then it is not a commentary, but becomes a primary source in its own right. The various flavours of Buddhism there for the savouring have sprung into existence because of their "commentarial drawing out" only. Promotion of one drawing out over another are silly at best, and do nothing to encourage the student of reality to see for themselves, where the difference is going to be made. Reality requires no drawing out. I could start pointing to material in the Abhidhamma that is not to be found in the Nikayas. This would then raise the possibility that others would go to some length to prove me wrong, or show, by some drawing out, how X actually means Y and that this is what the Buddha actually meant, even though it seems different. I hope you can see that this would be an academic, fruitless exercise, amounting to nothing more than a projection of intentions. What is real is beyond question. If you find that the Theravadan Abhidhamma in its entirety is a valid and accurate description of everything experienced and experiencable, well, good for you :-). What would be worth asking myself, if I found myself having such a view, is "Why this view?". It is beyond imagination that the Bahiya Sutta and the Ultimate Book of Ultimate Views come from the same author. Watch out for those cows with bells :-) Herman -----Original Message----- From: Jonothan Abbott [mailto:jonoabb@y...] Sent: Thursday, 8 July 2004 2:04 AM To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Abhidhamma Hi, Howard --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Nina - > > In a message dated 7/5/04 1:59:54 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > nilo@e... > writes: > > > Hi Howard, > -------------------------------------------------- > If you have time> > > and interest you could perhaps indicate where you find the Abh > questionable > > or superfluous. > ------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Well, I've raised such matters before, several times, and I'd > rather > not overly get into that. What is useful (as I see it) in the Abhidhamma > far > outweighs what might be viewed by some as superfluous. > ------------------------------------------------ As far as I recall, you've made comments several times about the Abhidhamma, but have declined to specify when invited to do so, as you again do here. Just a personal view, Howard, but if you are inclined to make general comments on the list questioning any part of the teachings, I think you should be prepared to give details if asked to do so. Jon 34481 From: Date: Wed Jul 7, 2004 4:28pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism.XIV 84, feelings Hi Nina, Thanks for all your efforts. I'm somewhat pacified now. The main point I wanted to emphasize is that feeling isn't rupa, even bodily feeling. If we look carefully we can begin to see how very elusive and ephemeral even strong feeling is. Where all this rupa comes from that is associated with feeling I have no idea, but maybe it doesn't matter. It could be that sense sphere consciousness is particularly intermingled with rupa. As for whether to look or not, I agree it is the interpretation that determines whether the consciousness is kusala with understanding or akusala with misunderstanding or kusala without understanding or akusala without misunderstanding. Also we could look at whether the prompting, if there is any, is kusala or akusala and whether it is with understanding or not or with misunderstanding or not. Larry 34482 From: Date: Wed Jul 7, 2004 1:15pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Abhidhamma Hi, Jon - In a message dated 7/7/04 12:04:59 PM Eastern Daylight Time, jonoabb@y... writes: > As far as I recall, you've made comments several times about the > Abhidhamma, but have declined to specify when invited to do so, as you > again do here. ------------------------------------------ Howard: Now, Jon, you are just plain mistaken here. I've raised questions about many specific matters, for example about jivitindriya and gender (I forget the Pali therm) as dhammas, and numerous other matters as well which I haven't bothered keeping records of. I've brought up several specifics, mainly with Nina over the years. But I'm not in the mood to engage in disputes. I value the Abhidhamma greatly, but have some reservations about it. C'est la vie, n'est ce pas? --------------------------------------------- > > Just a personal view, Howard, but if you are inclined to make general > comments on the list questioning any part of the teachings, I think you > should be prepared to give details if asked to do so. > > ----------------------------------------------- Howard: Been there ... done that. If you would prefer that I sit back and be a "good boy" with regard to Abhidhamma, well, I'll have to think about what that means to me. There is always available the option of moderating my troublesome posts, Jon. =============================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 34483 From: Date: Wed Jul 7, 2004 1:24pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Abhidhamma Hi, Jon - In a message dated 7/7/04 1:47:11 PM Eastern Daylight Time, jonoabb@y... writes: > Hi again, Howard > > Apologies if my earlier post sounded a bit curt - sent in a hurry from the > internet bar, which I've just popped back to for a moment. > > I've been enjoying your posts lately, and did not mean to suggest that you > should feel any need to elaborate ;-)). > > The loud music here is driving me crazy, so I won't talk further right > now. > > Jon > ============================ Thank you for writing back. Your suspicion as to how your post might have been received by me is right on target as the tone of my reply surely makes clear. I apologize for expressing anger, and I do much appreciate this friendly follow-up post of yours. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 34484 From: seisen_au Date: Wed Jul 7, 2004 5:41pm Subject: Re: kamma and vipaka Hi Nina, all, Nina van gorkom wrote: > And this was new: when akusala cittas arise before the kusala citta > or after it > (when you regret the giving afterwards) it conditions the kusala > kamma to be less excellent and it renders a lesser vipaka, > even rebirth with only two roots. > Nina. Would it be the case also that an akusala kammas vipaka can be lessened if followed by kusala citta? What about the case of an akusala kamma committed previously and many years later one was to reflect on that deed with kusala cittas, eg. panna, hiriottapa, karuna were to arise concerning that previous akusaka kamma. Would that akusala kammas vipaka be lessened? Steve. 34485 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Wed Jul 7, 2004 6:24pm Subject: Re: [dsg] On the topic of Sensation, Pleasure and Pain Hi Nori and all, Let me reply in context. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "nori" wrote: > Hi victor & jon, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "yu_zhonghao" > wrote: > > Hi Nori, > > > [1] > > Majjhima Nikaya 66 > > Latukikopama Sutta > > The Quail Simile > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/majjhima/mn066.html > > > > "And, Udayin, there are these five strings of sensuality. Which > > five? Forms cognizable via the eye -- agreeable, pleasing, > charming, > > endearing, fostering desire, enticing. Sounds cognizable via the > > ear... Aromas cognizable via the nose... Flavors cognizable via the > > tongue... Tactile sensations cognizable via the body -- agreeable, > > pleasing, charming, endearing, fostering desire, enticing. These > are > > the five strings of sensuality. Now, any pleasure & happiness that > > arises dependent on these five strings of sensuality is called > > sensual pleasure, a filthy pleasure, a run-of-the-mill pleasure, an > > ignoble pleasure. And of this pleasure I say that it is not to be > > cultivated, not to be developed, not to be pursued, that it is to > be > > feared. > > > > So what do you think Gotama the Buddha was experiencing in the > following excerpts considering the above ? I don't know exactly what the Buddha was experiencing at the time of speaking to Ananda as in the following excerpts. However, as you have pointed out in the excerpts, when dwelling at Vultures' Peak, the Buddha said to Ananda that "Pleasant, Ananda, is Rajagaha; pleasant is Vultures' Peak."[1] So what is pleasant about Rajagaha and Vultures' Peak (and Vesali and the shrines of Udena, Gotamaka, Sattambaka, Bahuputta, Sarandada, and Capala)? As I see it, these places would offer agreeable dwelling for seclusion. They were conducive for being alone such that one could experience the pleasure of seclusion at ease. In that sense, I see that the Buddha called these places "pleasant." > > Maha Parinibbana Suttanta D.ii.115, PTS > > 41. 'On one occasion, Ananda, I was dwelling at Rajagaha, on the hill > called the Vulture's Peak. Now there, Ananda, I spoke to thee and > said: "How pleasent a spot, Ananda, is Rajagaha; how pleasent is > Vulture's Peak." > > 47. 'And now today, Ananda, at the Chapala Shrine, I spoke to thee > and said:-"How delightful a spot, Ananda, is Vesali, how charming the > Udena Shrine, and the Gotamaka Shrine and the Shrine of the Seven > Mangoes..." > > Now gotama the arahant Buddha, has he not developed equanimity ? Yes, the Buddha had developed equanimity. > > Should not a sewer or charnel ground be no more or less pleasent than > Vesali ? A sewer or charnel ground would be unpleasant for dwelling. > > Why do you think in one case he teaches: "... Forms cognizable via > the eye -- agreeable, pleasing, charming,... these ... is called > sensual pleasure, a filthy pleasure, a run-of-the-mill pleasure, an > ignoble pleasure." > > .. and at another moment he says: "How delightful a spot, Ananda, is > Vesali, how charming the Udena Shrine..." ? That Buddha taught what he taught because sensuality, the desire and passion for sensual pleasures, leads to the dukkha. Why did the Buddha say to Ananda: "Pleasant, Ananda, is Rajagaha; pleasant is Vultures' Peak."? Given the context of the discourse, it was part of the Buddha's suggestion to Ananda for entreating the Tathagata to "remain throughout a world-period or until the end of it."[2] > > nori Metta, Victor [1] Digha Nikaya 16 Maha-parinibbana Sutta Last Days of the Buddha http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/digha/dn16.html [2] Ibid. 34486 From: kenhowardau Date: Wed Jul 7, 2004 8:17pm Subject: Re: some caution and non-advice --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Sujjhana Bhinnatta" wrote: > Dear Ken and all, > > I am happy to see my post stimulated some very interesting discussions. Ken, > I'm not going to address your comments individually like I have in the past. Hi Binnatta, I can see why you changed your format: the "non-reality" which you perceive in nama and rupa renders most of my points inconsequential. I hope my lack of reply (until now) hasn't given the wrong impression: I am looking forward to your answer to Jon's question. ---------------------------- B: > Ironically, we have unwittingly ventured down the same line of discussion that originally led Moggaliputta-tissa to write his Kathavatthu. > ------------------------------ I'd appreciate some details if you have time. Never a great reader, I rely on other dsg members for my Abhidhamma knowledge. ------------------- B: > Eliminating this belief in "ultimate realities," one is able to explain the contents of the Abhidhamma in terms of the two main teachings of the Buddha, namely anatta and paticcasamuppada. > ------------------- My experience has been the exact opposite: it is purely because nama and rupa are absolutely real that their characteristic, anatta, has any meaning whatsoever. Similarly, the laws of conditionality, paticcasamuppada, have no meaning if there are no realities to condition and be conditioned. ------------------ B: > Through faith in the teachings and sustained and effortful practice of the Eight-fold path, I believe we can all uproot our defilements and kilesas and cross over to the other shore. Once there, however, we must leave even the Dhamma behind. I'm reminded of a Zen saying that goes something like this: "If you see the Buddha walking down the road, kill him." > ---------------------- Zen sayings are usually too cryptic for me. This one would have to be directed at arahants, would it not? We wouldn't want to put the raft down before we have finished with it. :-) Kind regards, Ken H 34487 From: Date: Wed Jul 7, 2004 4:34pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: some caution and non-advice Hi, Ken - In a message dated 7/7/04 11:19:52 PM Eastern Daylight Time, kenhowardau@y... writes: > My experience has been the exact opposite: it is purely because nama > and rupa are absolutely real that their characteristic, anatta, has > any meaning whatsoever. Similarly, the laws of conditionality, > paticcasamuppada, have no meaning if there are no realities to > condition and be conditioned. > > ======================= I wish you could specify what you mean by "absolutely real" and by "realities," because o the face of it, an absolute reality and anatta don't go together so very well! With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 34488 From: nori Date: Wed Jul 7, 2004 9:47pm Subject: Re: [dsg] On the topic of Sensation, Pleasure and Pain Hi Victor, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "yu_zhonghao" wrote: > So what is pleasant about Rajagaha and Vultures' Peak (and Vesali > and the shrines of Udena, Gotamaka, Sattambaka, Bahuputta, > Sarandada, and Capala)? > > As I see it, these places would offer agreeable dwelling for > seclusion. They were conducive for being alone such that one could > experience the pleasure of seclusion at ease. In that sense, I see > that the Buddha called these places "pleasant." So what do you think, if Gotama the Buddha were at another location, conducive for being alone in the pleasure of seclusion, a place quiet and conducive for contemplation, however it smelled awful, or the scenery was not as beautiful or charming, do you think he would find that location equally as 'Pleasant' to proclaim so as he did to Ananda ? metta, nori 34489 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Thu Jul 8, 2004 0:06am Subject: Re: [dsg] On the topic of Sensation, Pleasure and Pain Hi Nori and all, I would not call a place pleasant if it smells awful. :-) Metta, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "nori" wrote: > Hi Victor, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "yu_zhonghao" > wrote: > > > So what is pleasant about Rajagaha and Vultures' Peak (and Vesali > > and the shrines of Udena, Gotamaka, Sattambaka, Bahuputta, > > Sarandada, and Capala)? > > > > As I see it, these places would offer agreeable dwelling for > > seclusion. They were conducive for being alone such that one > could > > experience the pleasure of seclusion at ease. In that sense, I > see > > that the Buddha called these places "pleasant." > > So what do you think, if Gotama the Buddha were at another location, > conducive for being alone in the pleasure of seclusion, a place > quiet and conducive for contemplation, however it smelled awful, or > the scenery was not as beautiful or charming, do you think he would > find that location equally as 'Pleasant' to proclaim so as he did to > Ananda ? > > metta, > nori 34490 From: kenhowardau Date: Thu Jul 8, 2004 2:40am Subject: [dsg] Re: Abhidhamma --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Herman Hofman" wrote: > Hi Jon, > > I'm sorry to be butting in on your chat with Howard, but.... > Hi Herman, It's too quiet here; I'm going to butt in on your butting in. :-) ------------- H: > If a commentary or other secondary work, which purports to draw out the meanings of a primary source, introduces material not found in the primary source, then it is not a commentary, but becomes a primary source in its own right. > --------------- Which secondary work do you have in mind? The Abhidhamma is not a secondary work. --------------- H: > The various flavours of Buddhism there for the savouring have sprung into existence because of their "commentarial drawing out" only. > ---------------------------- You've lost me. I think the major Buddhist schools rely on their own primary sources - including their own suttas. Maybe that's not what you mean. Are you saying the suttas are self-explanatory? --------------- H: > Promotion of one drawing out over another are silly at best, and do nothing to encourage the student of reality to see for themselves, where the difference is going to be made. > ---------------- Lost again! :-) Which competing `drawing- outs' are we talking about? The Abhidhamma does not draw out the suttas: the Abhidhamma comes first. If anything, the suttas condense the Abhidhamma. --------------- H: > Reality requires no drawing out. > --------------- Why doesn't it? ---------------- H: > I could start pointing to material in the Abhidhamma that is not to be found in the Nikayas. > ----------------- There is nothing controversial about that. Both the Abhidhamma and the Nikayas are the teaching of the Buddha. Can you point to anything in the Abhidhamma that is contrary to the Nikayas? --------------------------- H: > This would then raise the possibility that others would go to some length to prove me wrong, or show, by some drawing out, how X actually means Y and that this is what the Buddha actually meant, even though it seems different. ----------------------------- When you and I read suttas, Y might seem to be saying X, but if the Abhidhamma and the ancient commentaries say it is Y, then Y it is. ----------------- H: > I hope you can see that this would be an academic, fruitless exercise, amounting to nothing more than a projection of intentions. > ----------------- Forget the opinions of uninstructed worldlings; if something in the Tipitaka is unclear, let's ascertain the opinions of the ancient Theras. ------------------- H: > What is real is beyond question. > ------------------- When we don't understand what is real, questions are only natural. ------------------ H: > If you find that the Theravadan Abhidhamma in its entirety is a valid and accurate description of everything experienced and experiencable, well, good for you :-). ------------------ Comprehensive, `see for yourself,' proof is some way off (even for Jon). In the meantime, if you can see any internal contradictions in the Theravada texts, please, point them out! ----------------- H: > What would be worth asking myself, if I found myself having such a view, is "Why this view?". ----------------- Because it is the view sought by students of Theravada Buddhism. ----------------- H: > It is beyond imagination that the Bahiya Sutta and the Ultimate Book of Ultimate Views come from the same author. ------------------ Sorry, I don't know my suttas that well; what does the Bahiya Sutta say that is it irreconcilable with [what I assume you mean as] the Abhidhamma? ----------------- H: > Watch out for those cows with bells :-) ---------------- A joke appreciated by those who know the Bahiya Sutta, no doubt. Serves me right for butting in. Hey, "butting!" Get it? :-) Kind regards, Ken H 34491 From: Antony Woods Date: Thu Jul 8, 2004 4:49am Subject: Anatta and Kamma by Ajahn Jagaro Anatta (Non-self) and Kamma (Karma) The Best Kept Secret in the Universe by Ajahn Jagaro The teaching on Anatta or non-self is one of the most fundamental aspects of Buddhism, and may be the most important feature which makes the Buddha's teaching quite unique. The other aspect of the teaching which is sometimes seen to be difficult to reconcile or explain, in terms of anatta, is the teaching of kamma or the law of kamma, which is the law of cause and results. The causes we create through our actions of body, speech and mind, and the consequences that arise from these actions. The law of kamma states that as we sow so shall we reap, and whatever kamma we shall do, we will be the heirs that inherit it. This to many people seems somewhat of a contradiction. On the one part we have the teaching of anatta, that there is no self or a personal permanent constant entity. So how can there be someone who inherits the results of what they do now? So this evening I would like to speak on these two aspects of the teaching and also how they relate to each other, possibly illustrate how there is no contradiction at all. It is quite the opposite in fact, for to understand one it does require the other. Actually when the Buddha taught the teaching of anatta or non-self, it needed or required the law of kamma, the law of conditionality, and the law of dependent origination to fill in the gap. The concept of anatta or non-self is of great importance in Buddha's teaching, and it is the one aspect of the teaching which is quite often found by newcomers to Buddhism, or even traditional Buddhists, to be very difficult to understand. Elusive, abstract and foreign. These terms could be used to describe how we react to this teaching when we hear it, and rightly so. There is nothing from our experience - the way we experience life, perceive life, think and communicate - which would give the secret away. It is the best kept secret in the universe. Only a Buddha or someone with the qualities and perfections of a Buddha could possibly penetrate this mystery or the secret without the guidance of another. That is why it is rare for a Buddha to arise in the world to penetrate this particular fundamental truth. It is so difficult because their are no hints. Even Sherlock Holmes could not have solved this one. It is completely contrary to what the appearance seems to indicate, and this is the teaching of non-self. What the teaching says is, that within this human being, consisting of mind and body, or consisting of body and the mental attributes of feeling, perception, mental formations and consciousness, there is no permanent, personal entity which can be called a self or soul or ego. It does not sound right. Our experience seems to point back to someone in here, who is the experiencer, who owns "me" and "mine." This is the appearance which seems real. Even when people develop high states of meditation, as they did before the Buddha in India, where there were many different systems of religious teachers, spiritual seekers with their own systems of training of the mind, who were very accomplished, they simply were stuck on this appearance of a permanent self. There was a centre to all this subjective experience. There was a self, a centre point. Someone in there who is experiencing. Therefore every teaching that came out of India seemed to revolve around this one form or another dealing with this atman or atta or self or ego. In Christianity we have the soul. So there are many different notions about this core which is the real me, and everything else are attributes of me - my things, my body, my thoughts or my feelings. The me was the root of all these. So the Buddha in his teaching has burst the bubble and realised for himself that there was really no self, no real point that was a centre, and there was no self as such, and taught the teaching of no-self. But non-self is not meaning nothing, no personality. Of course you are you, the person sitting there. There is a mind and body, there is a personality, but there is no permanent entity. No aspect of that which you take yourself to be, which is permanent, or personal in the sense of being independent. And I will elaborate on this. What do we mean by what we call atta or self? What attributes should a self or soul have? A self or soul, if it is really you, should have, in order to have any significance or meaning so that it is really you, the following characteristics: 1. It has to be independent; otherwise how could it be really you. If other things can make it change, how can it be really you? So it has to stand independently. 2. If it is really yours, it must be completely in your power. This is a reasonable definition of me, which must be fulfilled for me to be real. If this 'me' does not fulfil this definition or does not have these attributes, then it is a fantasy. An 'I' or soul or 'me' dependent on other things, which changes dependent on other things, cannot be much of a 'me'. How can it be mine if I cannot completely control it? For example, consider an object which I possess like a watch. You can speak about it and say that this is my watch. None of you will disagree with that. It's my watch. That is the appearance in conventional reality, but if you look more closely, is it true? Is it really my watch in an absolute sense, other than in a conventionally accepted sense or merely for normal usage? In an absolute sense, it is not my watch, because I am going to lose it one day. Something will happen to it or it will get stolen, or I will die and somebody will inherit it. So in an absolute sense it is not mine, but something that will be with me temporarily. It really belongs where it comes from - the resources of the planet. Where will it go back - to the resources of the planet, like the matter of the universe. That is where it comes from and it will go back there. It is mine temporarily. So it is not mine in an absolute sense. Let us apply the same analogy to internal phenomena. That which is closest to me, 'my body', and we find that in actual fact when you apply this analysis, it is no different than the watch. As far as where the body comes from and where it goes back to, it is the same as the watch. Because of its changeability you can't say that it is mine. If it is mine I would make it different to what it is. It does not behave as I want it to, neither does your body behave as you want it to. You would notice this when we apply the same standards. If it is mine, I must have complete power to make it as I wish and I would wish everything that is mine be just as I wanted always, and I would be perfectly happy. Of course no one has ever been able to do that. But we all try and we all feel tremendous frustration at our inability to succeed. So not mine are the emotional feelings, perceptions, mental formations, thoughts, consciousness itself and the way the mental process operates. We'll apply the same analysis and see whether you can make your feelings as you want them to be and your thoughts to be as you want them to be. How many times a day do you feel what you don't want to feel, and remember what you don't want to remember, and think what you don't want to think? Your consciousness may dwell on some state of mind you do not want to have. The more you do not want to have, the more it comes out. Is this I really yours? And what is it in there that is you? What is it in this being that is sitting here 'you'? Am I the centre 'me' standing independently of everything else or is there anything else? The Buddha said no, and he stated it in no confusing terms. He stated very clearly - anatta, not self over and over again. Somebody might try to reinterpret the teaching of the Buddha as if there is some other self. In the Buddha's teaching there is no self to be found in this mind and body, of any form or any shape either in it or out of it anywhere. No self - full stop. But this is not to be accepted through belief, but to be realised through careful investigation. It is a well kept secret and only a mind which is extraordinarily well trained and disciplined and also knowledgeable can break through to this truth. The signs are not so easy to read. The conditioning is so strong. However we are fortunate that we have the seeds. The seeds are being planted in our minds through the Buddha's teaching. You have heard the possibility, rather than hearing over and over again that the real you is within you, the soul - and after it dies it will go to heaven or hell. That is the real self. You believe it whether you understand or not. Maybe actually there is nobody there, nobody at home at all. So you can't forget that now. So when your mind is strong enough, through the practice of meditation, this inquiry will start. What is it that is me? What is it that I take myself to be? Look with clarity and attention, and it is possible to realise directly the teaching of non-self. The only time that one can really understand is when you see it with insight. Until then we can appreciate logically and intellectually, think about it, but we cannot have that direct seeing. Until we have that direct seeing we do not have right view. We cannot have the right view with regard to the nature of the body and mind. So one needs to get this as a personal subjective experience through insight. However it is sufficient for now to dwell and point out what the Buddha taught about anatta. There is no self in this body or in the mind process. I stress the word process because the body and the mind is not one lump of stationary matter and stationary mental states. It is an ongoing process, dynamically moving, changing always, and becoming something else, and this is when we come to the other aspects of the teaching of the Buddha. When there is no self how can this continue, how can it keep going? What is there if there is no self, if there is no one there? How does this function? Here the Buddha mentions the fundamental laws that operate in the universe. They are not created by anybody. They are not dependent on somebody's power. The existence of samsara implies these laws. The laws imply samsara. This is what samsara is. These are the laws that control it. These fundamental laws can be broken down into several. The broadest one is the law of conditionality. Usually we say that this is the law of cause and effect. This is not a good terminology because it is much more complicated than that. It is the law of conditionality. Broadly speaking, what it means is that, whatever arises, arises from conditions. When the conditions are there the result comes about. When the conditions are not there the result cannot come about. The Buddha expressed in a very succinct statement: When this is, that is. When this arises, that arises. When this is not, that is not. When this ceases, that ceases. You can apply this to a whole range of phenomena, physical and mental, internal or external, animate or inanimate. It is just a fundamental law that operates all the time without somebody ruling over it. That is all inclusive. There is nothing outside it. According to the law of conditionality based on conditions the results come about. When the conditions are not there the results cannot come about. I often repeat this story - how a Buddhist and a Christian may perceive something. When I was in Perth monastery, it was raining and some people came to the monastery with some children. They were Christian children. Only the parents were Buddhist. I asked the children why it is raining, and they said because God makes the rain. I said I don't believe that. They asked me what I think about why it rains. I said because the conditions are right for it to rain - the atmospheric conditions, the temperature, wind and the clouds, and because everything is right for it to rain and it rains. Not because it is somebody's will to make it rain. This is an impersonal law, it is not biased. Completely unbiased and fair in its operation. It operates at the internal level too. The law of kamma basically is that dependent on what we intentionally do, through body, speech and mind, there will be results. The nature of these results will be determined by the nature of the intention. If the intention behind the action is wholesome, the result will be pleasant or wholesome. If the nature of the action is unwholesome, the result will be unpleasant. This is the specific application of the law of conditionality. Dependent on the causes the result will come about. Volition is one area of consciousness where the human mind has the ability to will. We can will the body to action, we can will our speech or thought. Quite often this is the mental attribute that people identify most strongly with as mine. If you have been meditating for some time you will probably know what I mean. When you look into yourself or listen to yourself, what does me identify mostly with? I 'will', so it must be me. I am the one who is doing this. I am the one who is asking and I am the one who is answering. I can choose to stand up or sit down. This must be me. We identify strongly with our will, intention or volition, because it appears to be the centre. But this is also no-self, and this is where you have to apply your attention very carefully. Even the volition is conditioned. Why do you will something? Why do you choose something? Why do you choose to come to the BSV and not go somewhere else? You have a choice. There is a volition there. That volition was conditioned by previous experience, thoughts, feelings and previous volition etc. So that volition or choice is not an independent thing. The choice that we make is also conditioned. Why do you think, why do you act, and speak the way you do, the choices you make? It is the result of past conditioning. So even our choice (cetana), intention, or volition is kamma. This aspect of our mind is conditioned by the past. The fundamental force that drives us to make choices is the quest for happiness. Your volition comes from the quest for happiness. Your experience in the quest for happiness helps to shape your volitions, and in what directions they will drive you. So when you have this volition, intention to do, to speak and think, it is a force. Having spoken, having acted, having thought, is a force set in motion. It will have its consequences. It will shape something in the future. Immediately it will shape the state of your mind psychologically. You think an angry thought, or speak angrily, you will feel associated with it a negative state of mind. Psychologically you get a reaction almost immediately. But there will probably be other results, which can come later on, because you have set something in motion, and that will or intention is like sowing a seed. It will bring some growth with results and fruits. This is the law of kamma. Each volitional act will bring results which psychologically may be very quick, but quite often may take some time, to come about. The Buddha said that some results come in this life and some in future lives. The nature of the volition will determine the nature of the result. Now at the time of death what will happen? Imagine how strong this force is. See it now in your life while you are living. This will or force that animates this body to walk around, drive it for how many years, to do this and that. Do you think at death this force will just expire and go into nothingness? The Buddha said it does not. This force, this volition which is kamma, at the time of death will in itself, just like any other force, cause the arising of a new conscious moment, as it does in the present existence. Consciousness is an arising and a ceasing. It is flowing, but that does not mean it is smooth. It is always arising and ceasing. Every conscious state of mind is flicking into existence and passing away. If you pay attention you can see that. At the time of death as the mind ceases, the last ceasing consciousness in this body causes the arising of consciousness in a new body, with a new physical base. And what arises is determined by the quality of the consciousness at the time of death. The quality of the previous consciousness conditions the arising of the new consciousness. Now if there is no self, if there is no one there, can this process really continue like this on and on? The question that is often put is, if there is no self, the person who is going to inherit the kamma is a different person than that who he now is. Is it not? Why should I care? I am not going to get the results. I can do what I want. That poor guy down the road is going to get all the results. It is interesting as an abstract thought. You can contemplate what you are experiencing now. Who is experiencing if there is no self? There is still experience. There is pleasure and pain, pleasant and unpleasant experience. There is no self, but the feeling is real, the state of mind is real, the happiness and unhappiness is real. These are real states of the mind though there is no self experiencing them. These states come about from past causes. The person who caused those conditions for the present state was you, or someone else. It does not matter. You are experiencing it now and it is a reality. The Buddha's teaching is that there is an individuality in this process. The individuality of the process is there, the continuity of the mind and body in this life, conventionally speaking. You are the mind and the body process and there is a continuity and an individuality of the process. It's your mind and body and not my mind and body which continues from birth to death in this life. But there is the same continuity and individuality into the next life. You don't get cross wires. Your stream of mind and body does not get mixed up with my stream of mind and body. My state of mind and body does not get mixed up in what is in your account and vice versa. It stays in each person's account. There is a continuity in this stream of mind and body and this is the law of kamma. The individuality is there but there is no individual in it. So what you do now will bring about results down the road. Who will experience it? You will be there just as much as you are here now. You are here now just as much as you were present in this stream 100 years ago or a thousand lifetimes ago. You were just as much you then, as you are now. And as long as you are this stream now you will be the same stream a thousand lifetimes in the future. What is the experiencing? There is the pleasure, there is pain, there is suffering and happiness. How do you feel about pain and suffering now? It is not liked by anyone, whether it is you or another. It is the same a thousand lifetimes before, as now. The relationship with the experience is the same. No one likes pain. Even though there is no you like a constant personal entity in this stream, still there is this relationship that pain and unhappiness is not wanted. It is difficult to bear. So we don't create conditions that bring about this suffering. The person who is sitting here now is not completely different from the person who came here last week, but not completely the same person either. Dependent on the past the present is, dependent on the present the future will be. So the idea of kamma simply implies that the way we live, what we do intentionally, volitionally, will have consequences. Not as punishment, not as reward. There is none who punishes, and none who rewards. That is because it is a law of nature, the law of conditionality. Volitional action will bring about results, and the nature of the results is determined by the nature of the volitional action. If it is positive it will bring about positive results, and of course if negative, unhappy results will follow and our relationship to the pleasant or unpleasant experience will be the same in the future as it is now. We do not want to be with that which is unpleasant. So the Buddha encourages over and over again, to cultivate good kamma. Feel what you feel now, and you will know the importance of planting the right seed for the future. There is no contradiction at all in the teaching of anatta and kamma. They flow together very well because of the law of dependent origination and the law of kamma. That is why it works the way it does, without anybody ordering it. It is orderly by its very nature. Any teaching that has got the teaching of kamma could be expected to sow the seeds of goodness. Any teaching which denies the law of kamma would open the door to irresponsible selfishness because you can get away with it. So this is considered the basic quality of a religion or philosophy, which will bring about good social structure and personal relationship, good moral standards, good virtuous upright living. It does not matter whether people have different religious beliefs, if they have the law of kamma by whatever word they call it, they can live together. It does not contradict with the law of anatta. Because there is no one driving, no one in the driver's seat, the laws operate and everything is orderly. No punishment, no reward, on favours, just orderly. (from "Buddhaloka", the Newsletter of the Buddhist Society of Victoria, July/August 1997 http://www.bsv.net.au 34492 From: Herman Hofman Date: Thu Jul 8, 2004 5:53am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Abhidhamma Hi Jon, Thanks for the post and the questions. I have been slaving over my company tax today and will probably need all tomorrow as well. When it comes to tax, my motto is "why do today what you can do tomorrow, or at the last minute". I will try and have a half-intelligible reply out on the week-end sometime :-). Thanks Herman -----Original Message----- From: Jonothan Abbott [mailto:jonoabb@y...] Sent: Thursday, 8 July 2004 2:17 AM To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Abhidhamma Hi, Herman You say: > Awareness of the present moment rises and falls with it. One needs to be > quiet to see the ego struggle with its non-existence. I think you have mentioned the theme of 'quietness' in previous posts. I'd be interested to hear more about it. I know it has quite a role in some contemplative orders. Worth discussing further. Also your concept of 'mental silence'. Could you elaborate a little? One further comment. --- Herman Hofman wrote: ... > Some take pride in how wordy the Abhidhamma is. Yet when there is > awareness of the primary source of the Abhidhamma (reality) there is not > a single word in sight !!! Strange indeed that it should take so many > words to describe something so totally non-verbal. The present moment is > such a living, fluctuating reality, yet someone imagined this could be > captured in a valley of dry bones. Weird, totally weird. Do you then make a distinction between the suttas and the abhidhamma in this regard? Both are talking about the same truths, surely. > Some take pride in how difficult it is to master the Abhidhamma, they > take pride in just how many commentaries, and which ones, are necessary > to shed light on the intricate and subtle meanings in this great > intellectual masterpiece. And yet, somehow untangling this web of words > is considered a safer bet than mental silence, because in mental silence > there could be a self?? > > Awareness of the present moment rises and falls with it. One needs to be > quiet to see the ego struggle with its non-existence. Jon 34493 From: Herman Hofman Date: Thu Jul 8, 2004 6:32am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Abhidhamma Hi Ken, Here's hoping you don't work for the ATO :-) Bit tied up at the moment, should be able to focus on more interesting things, like your post, by the week-end. But just to keep the ball rolling, a few points to consider. When you say that the Abhidhamma comes first, I wonder if you mean that in a historical sense. Because there is no reference in the suttas to the Abhidhamma (not to be confused with abhidhamma or abhivinaya) but there is reference to the suttas in the Abhidhamma, I think the assumption that the suttas historically preceded the Abhidhamma is a safe one. Secondly, the vinaya and the suttas are strictly an oral tradition, while the Abhidhamma is strictly a written tradition. Big difference, or what ? Catch you later Herman I'll snip your post, but requite it when I reply on the weekend. 34494 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Thu Jul 8, 2004 7:39am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Abhidhamma Hi, Herman --- Herman Hofman wrote: > Hi Jon, > > Thanks for the post and the questions. I have been slaving over my > company tax today and will probably need all tomorrow as well. When it > comes to tax, my motto is "why do today what you can do tomorrow, or at > the last minute". You have my sympathy. > I will try and have a half-intelligible reply out on the week-end > sometime :-). Looking forward to it. Hope you get the other business out of the way without too much hassle (opportunity to experience the characteristic of dosa, perhaps ...). Jon 34495 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Thu Jul 8, 2004 7:48am Subject: Re: [dsg] Go ahead and rain! Hi, Phil --- Philip wrote: > ... > There is found this, the first verse in the Thergata: > > "My hut is roofed, comfortable, > free of drafts; > my mind, well-centered, > set free. > I remain ardent. > So, rain-deva. > Go ahead & rain." > > > Now, I remember having come across this before somehwere, > perhaps a year ago, before I came to DSG. And I can remember that at > that time, I took "ardent" to mean filled with loving-kindness that > could dispel all the woes of life, and also thought about focusing on > the breath in a way that would shelter me. I was wrong. Now I feel > that "ardent" reflects the right effort that is looking at realities > in the moment, having both wholesome and unwholesome mental > states/moments as objects of awareness, and not being thrown into > unskillful deeds by either of them, because I have begun to see that > they are not self and will fall away soon enough, to be replaced by > other mental states/moments that arise in a conditioned way beyond my > control. It can rain, and will rain, but now I have begun - just > begun- to see rain for what it really is, and the citta processes > that it causes to arise. Thanks for the Thera/Therigatha verse, and for your comments on 'ardent'; both very inspiring. Yes, right effort is the effort that accompanies right view, as I understand it, so the person who is ardent is one in whom right view is arising. Different from the conventional idea of 'effort', but still performing a function that meets that description. Jon 34496 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Thu Jul 8, 2004 8:20am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Need clarification on a few subjects Hi, Victor > I would say that the Buddha taught the guidelines of sati, > sampajañña and atappa in meditation practice, the ajaans provide > explanations about these guidelines, and it takes practice and > exploration to develop experiential understanding regarding sati, > sampajañña and atappa. Again, I am reminded of a previous discussion of ours. If I recall correctly, you took the view that the suttas are self-contained and, except in the case of certain suttas whose meaning needs to be drawn out, should be read as they stand, and on this basis you reject the need for reference to the commentaries. However, here you seem to be saying that as regards satipatthana the suttas contain only the guidelines and need the explanation of (certain) current-day ajaans in order to be properly understood. Is there an inconsistency between this comment and your earlier position? In my view, the observations of the commentators dating from the time of the Buddha are bound to be a much more reliable explanation of the guidelines contained in the suttas. In any event, one would have to ask from what source the current-day ajaans derived the knowledge on which their explantions are based (for example, the comment about 'sending mindfulness out to refer to its object -- such as the body -- and then bringing it back inwards to refer to the heart', or the assertion that sampajanna has to be firmly in place first; do these have any basis in the suttas?). There is so much material in the commentaries and other texts about sati, sampajanna and atapi. In my experience, a consideration of this material can be very rewarding. > and it takes practice and > exploration to develop experiential understanding regarding sati, > sampajañña and atappa. Understanding at the experiential level (patipatti, 'practice') must be preceded by correct understanding at the intellectual level (pariyatti). I would not see it as a trial and error kind of thing, as 'exploration' seems to imply. Jon --- yu_zhonghao wrote: > Hi Lee and all, ... > Different meditation teachers may have different interpretation on > sampajañña. For examples, in > Frames of Reference > by > Ajaan Lee Dhammadharo > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/thai/lee/frames.html > > Ajaan Lee explains sati, sampajañña, and atappa as following: > > > 1. Sati: mindfulness; powers of reference. 2. Sampajañña: alertness. > This has to be firmly in place before sending mindfulness out to > refer to its object -- such as the body -- and then bringing it back > inwards to refer to the heart. 3. Atappa: focused investigation, > analyzing the object into its various aspects. > > > whereas in > The Path of > Concentration & Mindfulness > by > Thanissaro Bhikkhu > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/modern/thanissaro/concmind.html > > Ajaan Thanissaro explains them as: > > As you do this, you develop three qualities of mind. One is > mindfulness (sati). The term mindfulness means being able to > remember, to keep something in mind. In the case of establishing the > body as a frame of reference, it means being able to remember where > you're supposed to be -- with the body -- and you don't let yourself > forget. The second quality, alertness (sampajañña), means being > aware of what is actually going on in the present. Are you with the > body? Are you with the breath? Is the breath comfortable? Simply > notice what's actually happening in the present moment. We tend to > confuse mindfulness with alertness, but actually they are two > separate things: mindfulness means being able to remember where you > want to keep your awareness; alertness means being aware of what's > actually happening. The third quality, ardency (atappa), means two > things. One, if you realize that the mind has wandered off, you > bring it right back. Immediately. You don't let it wander around, > sniffing the flowers. Two, when the mind is with its proper frame of > reference, ardency means trying to be as sensitive as possible to > what's going on -- not just drifting in the present moment, but > really trying to penetrate more and more into the subtle details of > what's actually happening with the breath or the mind. > > > > I would say that the Buddha taught the guidelines of sati, > sampajañña and atappa in meditation practice, the ajaans provide > explanations about these guidelines, and it takes practice and > exploration to develop experiential understanding regarding sati, > sampajañña and atappa. 34497 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Thu Jul 8, 2004 8:32am Subject: Re: [dsg] On the topic of Sensation, Pleasure and Pain Hi, Nori --- nori wrote: > Hi victor & jon, > ... > So what do you think Gotama the Buddha was experiencing in the > following excerpts considering the above ? > > Maha Parinibbana Suttanta D.ii.115, PTS > > 41. 'On one occasion, Ananda, I was dwelling at Rajagaha, on the hill > called the Vulture's Peak. Now there, Ananda, I spoke to thee and > said: "How pleasent a spot, Ananda, is Rajagaha; how pleasent is > Vulture's Peak." > > 47. 'And now today, Ananda, at the Chapala Shrine, I spoke to thee > and said:-"How delightful a spot, Ananda, is Vesali, how charming the > Udena Shrine, and the Gotamaka Shrine and the Shrine of the Seven > Mangoes..." > > Now gotama the arahant Buddha, has he not developed equanimity ? > > Should not a sewer or charnel ground be no more or less pleasent than > Vesali ? > > Why do you think in one case he teaches: "... Forms cognizable via > the eye -- agreeable, pleasing, charming,... these ... is called > sensual pleasure, a filthy pleasure, a run-of-the-mill pleasure, an > ignoble pleasure." > > .. and at another moment he says: "How delightful a spot, Ananda, is > Vesali, how charming the Udena Shrine..." ? Just as an arahant experiences both pleasant and painful expereinces through the body-door, so he experiences both pleasant and unpleasant objects through the other doorways. In either case, however, no akusala arises on account of those experineces. As regards the quotes about a pleasant/delightful spot, this presumably refer eithers to the pleasantness of the sense-door experiences at those places or, more likely, their suitability as places for bhavana (the commentary would be the only reliable source of this information). However, I would be confident that the Buddha is not referring to or recommending attachment or any other form of akusala here. Jon 34498 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Jul 8, 2004 10:44am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Abhidhamma Hi Howard, I had forgotten about the subjects of jivitindriya and femininity and masculinity. They were not foremost in my mind. I agree that it is tiresome to repeat things and have debates again. There is no problem with any of your posts at all. As Sarah said, you were the occasion for many good discussions. If they are found troublesome, well it is also helpful to consider things for oneself, or formulate better. There is nothing wrong here. Also, the mood one is in colours a post one receives. One may read something into it that was not intended by the writer. Amazing when one comes to think of it. When rereading later on it seems a different post, or one can laugh about it. Email is a difficult medium and sometimes I prefer my old fashioned way of writing by hand or on the type writer. I enjoyed my correspondance with so many people over the years, including Rob K! Nina. op 08-07-2004 02:15 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: to Jon: I've raised questions > about many specific matters, for example about jivitindriya and gender (I > forget > the Pali therm) as dhammas, and numerous other matters as well which I haven't > bothered keeping records of. I've brought up several specifics, mainly with > Nina over the years. But I'm not in the mood to engage in disputes. I value > the > Abhidhamma greatly, but have some reservations about it. 34499 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Jul 8, 2004 10:44am Subject: Vis. XIV, 85 and Intro Vis. XIV, 85 and Intro Text Vis. 85. (3) But when young children have a natural habit due to seeing the behavior of relatives and are joyful on seeing bhikkhus and at once give them whatever they have in their hands or pay homage, then the third kind of consciousness arises. (4) But when they behave like this on being urged by their relatives, 'Give; pay homage', then the fourth kind of consciousness arises. (5)-(8) But when the consciousnesses are devoid of joy in these four instances through encountering no excellence in the gift to be given, or in the recipient, etc., or through want of any such cause for joy, the the remaining four, which are 'accompanied by equanimity', arise. So sense-sphere profitable [consciousness] should be understood as of eight kinds, being classed according to joy, equanimity, knowledge, and prompting. Intro to Tiika 85 There are eight types of kusala cittas of the sense-sphere in all. This section of the Visuddhimagga deals with the following six types of kusala cittas: 3) accompanied by pleasant feeling, without wisdom, unprompted somanassa-sahagata.m ñaa.na-vippayutta.m, asa²nkhaarikam eka.m 4) accompanied by pleasant feeling, without wisdom, prompted somanassa-sahagata.m ñaa.na-vippayutta.m, sasa²nkhaarikam eka.m 5) accompanied by indifferent feeling, with wisdom, unprompted upekkhaa-sahagata.m ñaa.na-sampayutta.m, asa²nkhaarikam eka.m 6)accompanied by indifferent feeling, with wisdom, prompted upekkhaa-sahagata.m ñaa.na-sampayutta.m, sasa²nkhaarikam eka.m 7) accompanied by indifferent feeling, without wisdom, unprompted upekkhaa-sahagata.m ñaa.na-vippayutta.m, asa²nkhaarikam eka.m 8)accompanied by indifferent feeling, without wisdom, prompted upekkhaa-sahagata.m ñaa.na-vippayutta.m, sasa²nkhaarikam eka.m Kusala cittas of the sense-sphere are these eight types and it depends on different conditions which type arises at a particular moment. There is no person who can direct kusala citta to be such or such. Kusala kamma of the sense sphere is performed by any one of these eight types and it produces its result accordingly. Kamma has been classified in many ways, and in one classification regenerative kamma, janaka kamma, is mentioned. Janaka kamma produces result in the form of rebirth-consciousness and in the course of life. The Tiika refers to janaka kamma and deals with the results produced by kusala kamma of different degrees. Kusala kamma performed by kusala citta that is with wisdom, accompanied by pleasant feeling and unprompted does not necessarily produce rebirth-consciousness that is vipaakacitta with wisdom, accompanied by pleasant feeling and unprompted. The reason is that kusala kamma is of different degrees and they all produce their results accordingly. There is excellent kusala kamma and inferior kusala kamma. When kusala citta with wisdom performs kusala kamma, the wisdom or understanding can be of different degrees. There may be understanding that kusala brings its result accordingly, or understanding of the degree of insight that realizes kusala as non-self. Or kusala kamma may be performed without understanding, depending on conditions. The Visuddhimagga gives an example of young children in order to illustrate kusala citta without understanding, but this type arises also in the case of adults. It depends on many conditions what type of kusala citta arises at a particular moment. Different opinions of teachers are quoted by Buddhaghosa (Expositor (II, p. 358 and following). He quotes also from three Elders: He then goes on analysing the different opinions very carefully. Akusala cittas arising before or after the kusala citta that performs kamma are conditions for the kusala kamma to be inferior and that it thus produces a result that is inferior. We read in the ³Guide to Conditional Relations² by U Narada (p. 202, 203): When kusala kamma is performed there are many kusala cittas, arising at three periods of time: before, during and after the kusala kamma. After having performed kusala kamma one can recollect it with kusala cittas. We read further on: We read in the Commentary to the Abhidhammattha Sangaha (Topics of Abhidhamma, p. 193, 194) that excellent kusala kamma with three roots produces rebirth with three roots and that inferior kusala kamma with three roots and excellent kusala kamma with two roots produces rebirth with two roots. Inferior kusala kamma with two roots produces rebirth that is ahetuka vipaakacitta. In that case a person is handicapped from the first moment of life. Here we see how each cause brings its appropriate result and how intricate the way of kamma is that produces result. It truly is only the field of the Buddhas. ****** Nina. 34500 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Jul 8, 2004 10:44am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism.XIV 84, feelings Hi Larry, op 08-07-2004 01:28 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: I'm somewhat pacified now. N: I am glad. I have to rephrase what I said about not thinking of the location of impingement where a rupa appears. I should express this more carefully. It is natural to note this most of the time, but then we are just thinking, not being aware of a characteristic. It is not a matter of should not. And also thinking has conditions, it is a reality. A. Sujin said we should know the difference between sati and thinking about realities. When we know the difference sati can be developed. Thus, when we are thinking or noting the place of impingement we can be reminded that this is not awareness of a characteristic, that is all. I wanted to remind myself when I wrote this, it is so easy to take for awareness what is not. I was thinking about the late Ven. Dhammadharo who said that a little patch of his knee was touching the floor and that thinking of that spot is not awareness of hardness. (This is on Rob K's web, Being here Now, it is very good). Best not to worry about all those things. When the time is ripe, when one has listened, sati will arise and then there is no time for all that noting and thinking. Rob K gave some very good examples how unexpectantly sati arises in the middle of all sorts of activities. Heard: L:The main point I > wanted to emphasize is that feeling isn't rupa, even bodily feeling. If > we look carefully we can begin to see how very elusive and ephemeral > even strong feeling is. Where all this rupa comes from that is > associated with feeling I have no idea, but maybe it doesn't matter. It > could be that sense sphere consciousness is particularly intermingled > with rupa. N: This is completely right. L: (snipped): Also we could look at whether the prompting, > if there is any, is kusala or akusala and whether it is with > understanding or not or with misunderstanding or not. N: It is hard to know, mostly by inference. Nina. 34501 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Jul 8, 2004 10:44am Subject: Re: [dsg] dialogue about kusala. Dear Jon, It is nice to hear from you so regularly. The music driving you crazy made me laugh. You and crazy??? op 07-07-2004 19:59 schreef Jonothan Abbott op jonoabb@y...: > On this post, Kate wondered why we talk so much about kusala. She thinks > that taking enjoyment in the mountain views and the wild-flowers is > beneficial ('food for the soul', she calls it) and can't be bad, although > she can see that enjoying food, for example, is self-centred. N: Yes, I also need nature, it helps me to recover, good for the eyes after all the computer work. As Rob K recently explained to Philip: there is sama lobha and visama lobha. Sama lobha is the normal attachment we have all day, after seeing, hearing, enjoying nature. We do not harm anybody. It comes naturally, it is our accumulated nature. Sure, the Buddha did not forbid this. There is also visama lobha and this is the more harmful greed or desire. The Buddha advised to develop ways to gradually abandon this, since it can motivate evil deeds. J: After hearing about 'developed mind' she also commented that her own mind > was very untrained, and moved around all the time. Sarah assured her it > was the same for us too, but I'm not sure she was convinced! N: The more one listens and considers the more one sees how untrained one's mind is. The training is never enough. But it is encouraging to learn more and make new discoveries all the time, and learn about so many possibilities for kusala citta. I listen now to MP3 Pakinnaka 2, and this is about India. I hear you posing good questions in Thai. All the India tapes are on it. What about your listening? But difficult for you to write now with this crazy driving music. Sound and hearing, and do we think automatically of the ears? Nina. P.S. I got the Vis. soft cover and will have it made into three + the footnotes separately, since these are all at the back. It can last all my life! 34502 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Jul 8, 2004 10:44am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: kamma and vipaka Hi Steve, nice to hear from you. op 08-07-2004 02:41 schreef seisen_au op seisen_@h...: Quote; >> And this was new: when akusala cittas arise before the kusala citta >> or after it >> (when you regret the giving afterwards) it conditions the kusala >> kamma to be less excellent and it renders a lesser vipaka, >> even rebirth with only two roots. > S: Would it be the case also that an akusala kammas vipaka can be > lessened if followed by kusala citta? N: In the case of kusala kamma performed by one of the eight maintypes the vipakacitta is not always like a mirror reflection. As explained, it depends on what precedes it and comes after it. It shows that many kusala cittas are involved when performing a deed. Eight types of sahetuka vipakacitta are possible and also eight ahetuka kusala vipakacittas (see my Intro). In the case of akusala kamma, when this produces rebirth, only one type of vipakacitta is possible, namely, ahetuka akusala vipakacitta. But it has many degrees, to be seen from the many unhappy planes of exsitence where it can arise. Kusala citta arising afterwards can bring its own result. But if janaka kamma is akusala kamma and the time is ripe it produces ahetuka akusala vipakacitta as rebirth-consciousness. We are unable to know much about all this. There are many kinds of kamma, supportive kamma, counteractive kamma, etc. There are factors that make it favorable for kusala kamma and akusala kamma to produce result, such as the time one is born (time of war or peace), or the place. S: What about the case of an akusala kamma committed previously and many > years later one was to reflect on that deed with kusala cittas, eg. > panna, hiriottapa, karuna were to arise concerning that previous > akusala kamma. Would that akusala kammas vipaka be lessened? N: I have not read of examples that are the opposite of the case of kusala kamma. But as I said, there are also other kammas, and other factors that operate. Not all akusala kammas produce rebirth, they also produce results during life. Nina. 34503 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Thu Jul 8, 2004 0:17pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Need clarification on a few subjects Hi Jon and all, Reply in context. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Hi, Victor > > > I would say that the Buddha taught the guidelines of sati, > > sampajañña and atappa in meditation practice, the ajaans provide > > explanations about these guidelines, and it takes practice and > > exploration to develop experiential understanding regarding sati, > > sampajañña and atappa. > > Again, I am reminded of a previous discussion of ours. If I recall > correctly, you took the view that the suttas are self-contained and, > except in the case of certain suttas whose meaning needs to be drawn out, > should be read as they stand, and on this basis you reject the need for > reference to the commentaries. What do commentaries have to say about sati, sampajañña and atappa? > > However, here you seem to be saying that as regards satipatthana the > suttas contain only the guidelines and need the explanation of (certain) > current-day ajaans in order to be properly understood. In fact, I said: "the Buddha taught the guidelines of sati, sampajañña and atappa in meditation practice, the ajaans provide explanations about these guidelines, and it takes practice and exploration to develop experiential understanding regarding sati, sampajañña and atappa." Is there an > inconsistency between this comment and your earlier position? You are welcome to provide some reference to my earlier position, whatever that is, so you and I can be sure exactly what it is. > > In my view, the observations of the commentators dating from the time of > the Buddha are bound to be a much more reliable explanation of the > guidelines contained in the suttas. Ok. That is your view. In any event, one would have to ask > from what source the current-day ajaans derived the knowledge on which > their explantions are based (for example, the comment about `sending > mindfulness out to refer to its object -- such as the body -- and then > bringing it back inwards to refer to the heart', or the assertion that > sampajanna has to be firmly in place first; do these have any basis in the > suttas?). I provided Ajaan Lee and Ajaan Thanissaro's explanations as examples that different meditation teachers may have different explanations. I understand that you question Ajaan Lee's explanation. You might be interested to read the introduction in Frames of Reference by Ajaan Lee Dhammadharo http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/thai/lee/frames.html > > There is so much material in the commentaries and other texts about sati, > sampajanna and atapi. In my experience, a consideration of this material > can be very rewarding. You are welcome to provide those commentaries for consideration, as I think the commentaries might be helpful to some. > > > and it takes practice and > > exploration to develop experiential understanding regarding sati, > > sampajañña and atappa. > > Understanding at the experiential level (patipatti, 'practice') must be > preceded by correct understanding at the intellectual level (pariyatti). > I would not see it as a trial and error kind of thing, as 'exploration' > seems to imply. This is how I see it: Knowing how to ride a bicycle is a kind of experiential knowledge that is to be acquired through actually sitting on a bike trying. And trial and error is part of the process of learning and mastering the skill of riding a bicycle. Learning and progress involve trial and error; i.e., trying different approaches to see if it works, until one masters the skill. Another example is learning math. One reads the textbook and listens to the teacher, and that is part of learning process. However, a deep and thorough understanding/ mastery of the subject matter or a skill comes from actually doing it, i.e., by solving problems. That is one's experiential knowledge about math. > > Jon > Have a good time. Metta, Victor > --- yu_zhonghao wrote: > > Hi Lee and all, > ... > > Different meditation teachers may have different interpretation on > > sampajañña. For examples, in > > Frames of Reference > > by > > Ajaan Lee Dhammadharo > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/thai/lee/frames.html > > > > Ajaan Lee explains sati, sampajañña, and atappa as following: > > > > > > 1. Sati: mindfulness; powers of reference. 2. Sampajañña: alertness. > > This has to be firmly in place before sending mindfulness out to > > refer to its object -- such as the body -- and then bringing it back > > inwards to refer to the heart. 3. Atappa: focused investigation, > > analyzing the object into its various aspects. > > > > > > whereas in > > The Path of > > Concentration & Mindfulness > > by > > Thanissaro Bhikkhu > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/modern/thanissaro/concmind.html > > > > Ajaan Thanissaro explains them as: > > > > As you do this, you develop three qualities of mind. One is > > mindfulness (sati). The term mindfulness means being able to > > remember, to keep something in mind. In the case of establishing the > > body as a frame of reference, it means being able to remember where > > you're supposed to be -- with the body -- and you don't let yourself > > forget. The second quality, alertness (sampajañña), means being > > aware of what is actually going on in the present. Are you with the > > body? Are you with the breath? Is the breath comfortable? Simply > > notice what's actually happening in the present moment. We tend to > > confuse mindfulness with alertness, but actually they are two > > separate things: mindfulness means being able to remember where you > > want to keep your awareness; alertness means being aware of what's > > actually happening. The third quality, ardency (atappa), means two > > things. One, if you realize that the mind has wandered off, you > > bring it right back. Immediately. You don't let it wander around, > > sniffing the flowers. Two, when the mind is with its proper frame of > > reference, ardency means trying to be as sensitive as possible to > > what's going on -- not just drifting in the present moment, but > > really trying to penetrate more and more into the subtle details of > > what's actually happening with the breath or the mind. > > > > > > > > I would say that the Buddha taught the guidelines of sati, > > sampajañña and atappa in meditation practice, the ajaans provide > > explanations about these guidelines, and it takes practice and > > exploration to develop experiential understanding regarding sati, > > sampajañña and atappa. 34504 From: Date: Thu Jul 8, 2004 8:47am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Abhidhamma Dear Nina - In a message dated 7/8/04 1:45:23 PM Eastern Daylight Time, nilo@e... writes: > > Hi Howard, > I had forgotten about the subjects of jivitindriya and femininity and > masculinity. They were not foremost in my mind. I agree that it is tiresome > to repeat things and have debates again. There is no problem with any of > your posts at all. > As Sarah said, you were the occasion for many good discussions. If they are > found troublesome, well it is also helpful to consider things for oneself, > or formulate better. There is nothing wrong here. > Also, the mood one is in colours a post one receives. One may read something > into it that was not intended by the writer. Amazing when one comes to think > of it. When rereading later on it seems a different post, or one can laugh > about it. > Email is a difficult medium and sometimes I prefer my old fashioned way of > writing by hand or on the type writer. I enjoyed my correspondance with so > many people over the years, including Rob K! > Nina. ========================= As usual, you are very sweet and very kind. Thank you for your so very pleasant words! With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 34505 From: nori Date: Thu Jul 8, 2004 8:29pm Subject: Re: [dsg] On the topic of Sensation, Pleasure and Pain Hi John & Victor, john wrote: 'As regards the quotes about a pleasant/delightful spot, this presumably refer eithers to the pleasantness of the sense-door experiences at those places... I would be confident that the Buddha is not referring to or recommending attachment or any other form of akusala here.' So what do you think ?: Is it not the case that if you found a place 'pleasant', that one is already at that point 'taking pleasure' or 'participating in carnal indulgence' in those sense door experiences, and likewise if that one found a place 'unpleasant' then is he not already at that moment reacting with aversion to that sense door experience ? Is it not akusala (unwholesome) already at the moment one has 'aversion' or 'liking', which results in 'pleasant' or 'unpleasant' feeling ? For if there were no 'aversion' or 'liking' to sense door experiences then nothing would be pleasant or 'unpleasant' there would only exist neutral feeling for those sense-door experiences. Does not 'pleasant' experience, already at that moment of feeling - 'this is pleasant' result in inevitable attachment, and craving resulting in suffering when it is not present ? with metta, nori 34506 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Thu Jul 8, 2004 10:19pm Subject: Re: [dsg] On the topic of Sensation, Pleasure and Pain Hi Nori and all, I shall reply in context. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "nori" wrote: > Hi John & Victor, > > john wrote: > > 'As regards the quotes about a pleasant/delightful spot, this > presumably refer eithers to the pleasantness of the sense-door > experiences at those places... I would be confident that the Buddha > is not referring to or recommending attachment or any other form of > akusala here.' > > So what do you think ?: > > Is it not the case that if you found a place 'pleasant', that one is > already at that point 'taking pleasure' or 'participating in carnal > indulgence' in those sense door experiences, and likewise if that > one found a place 'unpleasant' then is he not already at that moment > reacting with aversion to that sense door experience ? Finding a place pleasant does not imply that one is already at that point 'taking pleasure', let alone 'participating in carnal indulgence.' Likewise finding a place unpleasant does not imply that one is already at that moment reacting with aversion to that sense door experience. > > Is it not akusala (unwholesome) already at the moment one > has 'aversion' or 'liking', which results in 'pleasant' > or 'unpleasant' feeling ? Experiencing pleasant feeling does not imply that there is lust & passion for pleasant feeling. Likewise experiencing painful feeling does not imply that there is aversion. > > For if there were no 'aversion' or 'liking' to sense door > experiences then nothing would be pleasant or 'unpleasant' there > would only exist neutral feeling for those sense-door experiences. Let me copy the following passage again: Samyutta Nikaya I.38 Sakalika Sutta The Stone Sliver Translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu. For free distribution only. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn01-038.html I have heard that on one occasion the Blessed One was staying near Rajagaha at the Maddakucchi Deer Reserve. Now at that time his foot had been pierced by a stone sliver. Excruciating were the bodily feelings that developed within him -- painful, fierce, sharp, wracking, repellent, disagreeable -- but he endured them mindful, alert, & unperturbed. Having had his outer robe folded in four and laid out, he lay down on his right side in the lion's posture, with one foot placed on top of the other, mindful & alert. Painful feeling does not imply aversion. > > Does not 'pleasant' experience, already at that moment of feeling - > 'this is pleasant' result in inevitable attachment, and craving > resulting in suffering when it is not present ? Experiencing pleasant feeling does not imply that one is attached to it. But on the other hand, it is entirely possible that there is lust & passion for pleasant feeling. Let me quote the following from Anguttara Nikaya VI.63 Nibbedhika Sutta Penetrative http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an06-063.html "There are these five strings of sensuality. Which five? Forms cognizable via the eye -- agreeable, pleasing, charming, endearing, fostering desire, enticing; sounds cognizable via the ear... aromas cognizable via the nose... flavors cognizable via the tongue... tactile sensations cognizable via the body -- agreeable, pleasing, charming, endearing, fostering desire, enticing. But these are not sensuality. They are called strings of sensuality in the discipline of the noble ones. The passion for his resolves is a man's sensuality, not the beautiful sensual pleasures found in the world. The passion for his resolves is a man's sensuality. The beauties remain as they are in the world, while the wise, in this regard, subdue their desire. "And what is the diversity in feeling? There is the feeling of pleasure connected with the baits of the world. There is the feeling of pleasure not connected with the baits of the world. There is the feeling of pain connected with the baits of the world. There is the feeling of pain not connected with the baits of the world. There is the feeling of neither pleasure nor pain connected with the baits of the world. There is the feeling of neither pleasure nor pain not connected with the baits of the world. This is called the diversity in feeling. [See The Wings to Awakening, passage §179.] What are the baits? Five strings of sensuality. I think you might also be interested to check passage §179 at http://tinyurl.com/2ujxc > > > with metta, > nori Metta, Victor 34507 From: Sujjhana Bhinnatta Date: Thu Jul 8, 2004 11:17pm Subject: Re: some caution and non-advice Hello Jon, Sorry for the delay in responding, I am in the practice of limiting my vices and the internet for me is a considerable addiction. ****************************************************** Jon:> I must confess this is the first time I have come across such a statement. > My question to you would be, within the suttas themselves there âre many > references to dhammas, conditioned dhammas, the five aggregates, the > elements, and the sense bases. What do you see as the significance of > these references? ****************************************************** B: The significance of these references as a teaching tool is not what is in question. Faith in the Buddha as a teacher and master of skillful (kusala) means, leaves no doubt as to the necessity and centrality of these terms and concepts. And thats just what this discussion is about. Concepts. Calling them such does not marginalize their importance in studying the way. Language (loka-samanna = generality of the world, loka-vohara = usage of the world, loka-sammuti = convention of the world), like all other things is constantly in flux. Words, the building blocks of language, do not represent any unchanging entities, but rather are conventional symbols people adopt according to circumstance. Words have no inherent meaning. Or perhaps it would be better to say that the meaning of a word is inconstant. What one refers to when one says "tree," refers to something different every time. Thus my contention with any attempt to set up any word, concept, or definition as an "ultimate reality." The very reality those words refer to is in constant flux. Their usage by the Buddha was according to the accumulations, dispositions and circumstances of the audiences he was addressing. When the teachings of the Buddha were finally put to parchment, the Abhidhammikas, in an attempt to preserve and understand those teachings, attempted to extrapolate and codify the context and application of what THEY THOUGHT were essential concepts and key terms. I emphasize what 'they thought' because of the discrepancies in the lists of the two predominant schools of Buddhism at the time: the Sarvastivadins and the Theravadins. The result is the system of classification (vibhanga) whereby each element is related to another in the different classifications. Lets illustrate this process by looking at the conception of feeling (vedana) extracted from Nyanatiloka Mahathera's "Guide Through the Abhidhamma-Pitaka": "What here is the aggregate of feeling? The aggregate of feeling is of: 1. A single nature: in being associated with sense impression (phassa-sampayutta); 2. Twofold: accompanied by root (sahetuko), unaccompanied by root (ahetuka); 3. Threefold: wholesome, unwholesome, neutral; 4. Fourfold: kamavacara (belonging to the world of sense pleasures), rupavacara (belonging to materiality), arupavacara (belonging to the immaterial), lokuttara (belonging to the supernormal world); 5. Fivefold: bodily ease, bodily pain, gladness, sadness, indifference; 6. Sixfold: born of eye-impression, ear-, nose-, tongue-, body-, and mind-impression; 7. Sevenfold: born of eye-impression, ear-, nose-, tongue-, body-, of the impression of the mind-element (mano-dhatu), of the impression of the mind-consciousness-element (mano-vinnana-dhatu); 8. Eightfold: born of the eye-, ear-, nose-, tongue-impression, born of body-impression, either pleasant or painful, born of the impression of the mind-element, of the mind-consciousness-element; 9. Ninefold: born of eye-, ear-, nose-, tongue-, body-impression, of the impression of the mind-element, of the mind-consciousness-element, which is wholesome, unwholesome, or neutral; 10. Tenfold: born of eye-, ear-, nose-, tongue-, body-impression, either pleasant or painful, born of the impression of the mind-element, of the mind-consciousness-element, which is wholesome, unwholesome, or neutral." (from "Guide" pp. 25-26) B: Clearly the attempt here is to account for every possible shade of meaning that the conception of feeling represents. This is accomplished by placing that conception in every possible category, even if it results in some repetition. The Abhidhammikas understood the emptiness of words and symbols. That is why they went to such great lengths to demarcate as precisely as possible, what a particular concept is (and is not) according to how the Buddha used them in the discourses. However, to avoid any sort of absolutism (as well as one big pile of unrelated elements), the two Abhidhamma traditions developed the theory of relations (paccaya). And while the actual number of relations differ for the two traditions, the paccaya served the same purpose the Buddha's teachings on 'dependent arising' (paticcasamuppada) did for the earlier Buddhists. It provided a description of the subordination, synthesis, and coordination of the various events/elements thus described in the other books of the Abhidhamma. I apologize for this long winded response. To answer your question, the significance I see in these references, whether in the suttas or the abhidhamma, lies in their use by the human facilities of conception, analysis, and language -- the very factors that keep us bound to samsara -- to build a boat that will carry us to the shore of the unconditioned. The suttas build a boat out of our ordinary ideas of the world, humans, animals, devas, suffering, stress, hatred, greed, and meditation. The boat is made of wholesome views, skillfull practices, and moral behavior. The abhidhamma builds its boat by removing these concepts from their context, stripping them of any personal or absolute status and then describing how these seemingly unrelated elements/events interact, condition, and depend on one another in the creation of experience. Neither boat can be called 'ultimate,' for to do so would be to bore a hole right through the bottom of the boat whereby it sinks into the bottomless ocean of suffering. *************************************************** Jon:> Do you disagree with the view that these are the > objects of insight the developoment of which leads eventually to > enlightenment? *************************************************** B: I'm not sure what you mean by 'objects of insight,' but I would certainly disagree with the view that the buddha set up some sort of over-arching psychology, with a reductionist form of absolutism as its basis. Take away the absolutism...stop comparing the Dhamma to psychology...and drop the metaphysical assertions, and then we're in business. To summarize, clinging to any concept as absolute, ultimate, or unchanging is one of the very types of wrong view the abhidhammikas were seeking to uproot. I'll end by saying that none of the above, nor any of the suttas, commentaries or books are capable of ending suffering. Now you tell me, what is? **************************************************** > Looking forward to more of your stimulating posts. > Jon **************************************************** B: Stimulants can be addictive. ;-) May we all soon reach the other shore. May you be present, happy, and well. Bhinnatta --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.708 / Virus Database: 464 - Release Date: 6/19/2004 34508 From: nori Date: Fri Jul 9, 2004 1:26am Subject: Re: On the topic of Sensation, Pleasure and Pain Hi victor & jon, This is great. I can't thank you enough for clearing this up for me, and skillfully finding a sutta to make the point exactly. So what do you think ? : If Gotama the Buddha with his retinue of arahants were residing at some location and later there blew in this really horrible stench that would not go away, and he had no reason to remain, then would he say: 'Come samanas, let us go, this place is no longer a pleasant abiding.' or would he remain and tolerate the stench ? metta, nori --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "yu_zhonghao" wrote: > Hi Nori and all, > > I shall reply in context. > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "nori" > wrote: > > Hi John & Victor, > > > > john wrote: > > > > 'As regards the quotes about a pleasant/delightful spot, this > > presumably refer eithers to the pleasantness of the sense-door > > experiences at those places... I would be confident that the > Buddha > > is not referring to or recommending attachment or any other form > of > > akusala here.' > > > > So what do you think ?: > > > > Is it not the case that if you found a place 'pleasant', that one > is > > already at that point 'taking pleasure' or 'participating in > carnal > > indulgence' in those sense door experiences, and likewise if that > > one found a place 'unpleasant' then is he not already at that > moment > > reacting with aversion to that sense door experience ? > > > Finding a place pleasant does not imply that one is already at that > point 'taking pleasure', let alone 'participating in carnal > indulgence.' > > Likewise finding a place unpleasant does not imply that one is > already at that moment reacting with aversion to that sense door > experience. > > > > > > Is it not akusala (unwholesome) already at the moment one > > has 'aversion' or 'liking', which results in 'pleasant' > > or 'unpleasant' feeling ? > > > Experiencing pleasant feeling does not imply that there is lust & > passion for pleasant feeling. > > Likewise experiencing painful feeling does not imply that there is > aversion. > > > > > > For if there were no 'aversion' or 'liking' to sense door > > experiences then nothing would be pleasant or 'unpleasant' there > > would only exist neutral feeling for those sense-door experiences. > > > > Let me copy the following passage again: > > Samyutta Nikaya I.38 > Sakalika Sutta > The Stone Sliver > Translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu. > For free distribution only. > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn01-038.html > > > I have heard that on one occasion the Blessed One was staying near > Rajagaha at the Maddakucchi Deer Reserve. Now at that time his foot > had been pierced by a stone sliver. Excruciating were the bodily > feelings that developed within him -- painful, fierce, sharp, > wracking, repellent, disagreeable -- but he endured them mindful, > alert, & unperturbed. Having had his outer robe folded in four and > laid out, he lay down on his right side in the lion's posture, with > one foot placed on top of the other, mindful & alert. > > > > Painful feeling does not imply aversion. > > > > > > Does not 'pleasant' experience, already at that moment of feeling - > > 'this is pleasant' result in inevitable attachment, and craving > > resulting in suffering when it is not present ? > > > Experiencing pleasant feeling does not imply that one is attached to > it. But on the other hand, it is entirely possible that there is > lust & passion for pleasant feeling. > > Let me quote the following from > > Anguttara Nikaya VI.63 > Nibbedhika Sutta > Penetrative > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an06-063.html > > > "There are these five strings of sensuality. Which five? Forms > cognizable via the eye -- agreeable, pleasing, charming, endearing, > fostering desire, enticing; sounds cognizable via the ear... aromas > cognizable via the nose... flavors cognizable via the tongue... > tactile sensations cognizable via the body -- agreeable, pleasing, > charming, endearing, fostering desire, enticing. But these are not > sensuality. They are called strings of sensuality in the discipline > of the noble ones. > > The passion for his resolves is a man's sensuality, > not the beautiful sensual pleasures > found in the world. > The passion for his resolves is a man's sensuality. > The beauties remain as they are in the world, > while the wise, in this regard, > subdue their desire. > > > > "And what is the diversity in feeling? There is the feeling of > pleasure connected with the baits of the world. There is the feeling > of pleasure not connected with the baits of the world. There is the > feeling of pain connected with the baits of the world. There is the > feeling of pain not connected with the baits of the world. There is > the feeling of neither pleasure nor pain connected with the baits of > the world. There is the feeling of neither pleasure nor pain not > connected with the baits of the world. This is called the diversity > in feeling. [See The Wings to Awakening, passage §179.] > > > What are the baits? > > Five strings of sensuality. > > I think you might also be interested to check passage §179 at > > http://tinyurl.com/2ujxc > > > > > > > with metta, > > nori > > Metta, > Victor 34509 From: kenhowardau Date: Fri Jul 9, 2004 3:23am Subject: [dsg] Re: some caution and non-advice Hi Howard, I wrote: ------------- > > My experience has been the exact opposite: it is purely because nama > > and rupa are absolutely real that their characteristic, anatta, has > > any meaning whatsoever. Similarly, the laws of conditionality, > > paticcasamuppada, have no meaning if there are no realities to > > condition and be conditioned. > > ------------- to which you replied: ------------- > I wish you could specify what you mean by "absolutely real" and by > "realities," ------------- I think something is a reality (is absolutely real) if it has its own inherent nature (characteristics). So a paramattha dhamma is inherently wholesome or unwholesome, desirable or undesirable and so on. The opinion of an observer has no influence on these characteristics. As to whether there exist such things as ultimate realities, I think the onus of proof is on those who say there isn't rather than those who say there is. It is self-evident that there has to be something, somewhere that is real. Otherwise, how could illusions be created? It is not only the Dhamma that insists on there being an ultimate reality: the laws of conventional science rely on the existence of matter. They are the properties of real, momentarily existent, sub- atomic particles. ---------------------------- H: > because on the face of it, an absolute reality and anatta don't go together so very well! > --------------------------- Anatta shouldn't be confused with nothingness. As a characteristic of paramattha dhammas, it is inseparable from them. It forms part of their sabhava (substance, inherent nature). It characterises them as being without an abiding self, soul or entity. Ken H 34510 From: Leonardo Neves Date: Thu Jul 8, 2004 5:08pm Subject: RES: [dsg] From Palm Leaves to Palm Top, The Human Adventure is Just Beginning Dear Ícaro, Try this for your palm ... "Pali Canon Anywhere" http://www.mindspring.com/~darrengoh/canon/ Metta, Leonardo Neves -----Mensagem original----- De: icarofranca [mailto:icarofranca@y...] Enviada em: quarta-feira, 7 de julho de 2004 14:18 Para: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Assunto: [dsg] From Palm Leaves to Palm Top, The Human Adventure is Just Beginning Hello, Noble Company of Dhamma Fellows! Some time ago I've bought a Palm Top - a personal portable Computer, also named handheld. After the basics on transfering files to main Computer, converting .doc and .pdf files and so on, I eagerly begun to gather up all files about theravada buddhism around the net, compact and transfer them to my gadget with all skills of the art. And now I can carry with me all suttas,vinayas, abhidhamma treatises, Tiikas and Theravada books as the Patiika and the Ledi Sayadaw's manuals, easily, without effort or cumbersome delay. I am sitting inside the bus, for example,and at the half and a quarter of hour nama and rupa rises and falls on my sensedoors while I read the Mahavagga, the Patiika, the Uposatha Sila and build up my culture with the best of the teachings: the own Buddhadhamma. I think about the first palm leaves' texts and about the very effort to preserve them from climate, fungus, insects and so on: it were a great adventure for itself, worth and sublime by its own ways! I do preserve also the wholeness of my palm Top, keeping it clean and functional at all means and I do feel I am really inside the stream of the true Dhamma!!! The advantages of having gadgets, at american way!!! The only buddhistic texts I haven't yet put inside my palm Top are the Nina van Gorkon's works, with all their exquisite, unique and dutch way to preaching Dhamma: I am afraid to burn up the circuits of the poor machine!!!! From palm leaves to palm Top: The Human Adventure is Just beginning... take the first star right at the horizon and go ahead, helmsman!!!! Mettaya, Ícaro 34511 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Fri Jul 9, 2004 6:56am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Abhidhamma Hi, Howard --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Jon - ... > ============================ > Thank you for writing back. Your suspicion as to how your post > might > have been received by me is right on target as the tone of my reply > surely > makes clear. I apologize for expressing anger, and I do much appreciate > this > friendly follow-up post of yours. > > With metta, > Howard There is no need to apologise. Re-reading the earlier messages in this thread I see your comments in a different light. Perhaps I stepped in too hastily -- an easy thing to do when trying to keep up with things on the run so to speak. Talking of which, we have just had an amazing day's outing to the permanent snowfields and glacier country above Zermatt. Once we climbed (by chair lift) through a blanket of low lying cloud we found ourselves in perfect sunshine and fresh, crisp snow, with views of the alps all around. Quite spectacular. I'll get back to you on our other thread as soon as I can. Tomorrow we move to Meiringen, where we'll be staying until the end of our visit. I'll write again from there. Jon 34512 From: Date: Fri Jul 9, 2004 2:58am Subject: Re: [dsg] On the topic of Sensation, Pleasure and Pain Hi, Nori (and Victor, and John) - In a message dated 7/9/04 12:24:06 AM Eastern Daylight Time, nori_public@a... writes: > Hi John &Victor, > > john wrote: > > 'As regards the quotes about a pleasant/delightful spot, this > presumably refer eithers to the pleasantness of the sense-door > experiences at those places... I would be confident that the Buddha > is not referring to or recommending attachment or any other form of > akusala here.' > > So what do you think ?: > > Is it not the case that if you found a place 'pleasant', that one is > already at that point 'taking pleasure' or 'participating in carnal > indulgence' in those sense door experiences, and likewise if that > one found a place 'unpleasant' then is he not already at that moment > reacting with aversion to that sense door experience ? > > Is it not akusala (unwholesome) already at the moment one > has 'aversion' or 'liking', which results in 'pleasant' > or 'unpleasant' feeling ? > > For if there were no 'aversion' or 'liking' to sense door > experiences then nothing would be pleasant or 'unpleasant' there > would only exist neutral feeling for those sense-door experiences. > > Does not 'pleasant' experience, already at that moment of feeling - > 'this is pleasant' result in inevitable attachment, and craving > resulting in suffering when it is not present ? > > > with metta, > =========================== Nori, I think Victor's reply was excellent. Feeling, whether pleasant, unpleasant, or neutral is "just that". It is just a matter of fact. The thing is that with folks such as us, the tanhic reaction to pleasant/unpleasant feelings follows so immediately (and dependably! ;-) that we typically cannot distinguish between "pleasant" and "I want it" or between "unpleasant" and "I want to be rid of it". This is the way we are! But an ariyan, and all the more so the higher of an ariyan s/he is, is less vulnerable to this confusion, with an arahant being fully free of tanhic reaction. But an arahant still experiences feelings. Moreover, it makes perfect sense for a Buddha to note that a particular locale is pleasant (i.e., induces pleasant feelings), for pleasant feelings, if not overly grasped at by a learner, can be helpful for his/her progress in meditation, especially for the cultivation of calm and of the jhanas. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 34513 From: Date: Fri Jul 9, 2004 3:23am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: some caution and non-advice Hi, Ken - In a message dated 7/9/04 7:03:14 AM Eastern Daylight Time, kenhowardau@y... writes: > > Hi Howard, > > I wrote: > ------------- > >>My experience has been the exact opposite: it is purely because > nama > >>and rupa are absolutely real that their characteristic, anatta, > has > >>any meaning whatsoever. Similarly, the laws of conditionality, > >>paticcasamuppada, have no meaning if there are no realities to > >>condition and be conditioned. > >> > ------------- > > to which you replied: > ------------- > > I wish you could specify what you mean by "absolutely real" > and by > >"realities," > ------------- > > I think something is a reality (is absolutely real) if it has its > own inherent nature (characteristics). So a paramattha dhamma is > inherently wholesome or unwholesome, desirable or undesirable and so > on. The opinion of an observer has no influence on these > characteristics. > --------------------------------------------- Howard: Ahh, okay. I follow you. I'm not bothered by the idea of a dhamma having specific characteristics. However, I think that referring to them as "inherent nature" and especially as "OWN inherent nature" is misleading because it is already a problem to even speak of a dhamma as having its own being, inasmuch as the "being" of any phenomenon is completely dependent on other, similarly dependent, conditions. The fleeting existence of dhammas is, itself, fully dependent, and not "inherent". Also, isn't the word 'reality' goods enough? Does one have to imply the even greater sense of substantial own-being in using the expression "ABSOLUTELY real"? [I think it is very important to choose language that suggests the emptiness/corelessness aspect of dhammas, inasmuch as language use affects thought.] ---------------------------------------------------------- > > As to whether there exist such things as ultimate realities, I think > the onus of proof is on those who say there isn't rather than those > who say there is. It is self-evident that there has to be > something, somewhere that is real. Otherwise, how could illusions be > created? ---------------------------------------------------- Howard: Well, I don't want to make a fuss over this issue, but the norm is that the burden of proof lies on the one who makes a positive existential claim. ----------------------------------------------------- > > It is not only the Dhamma that insists on there being an ultimate > reality: the laws of conventional science rely on the existence of > matter. They are the properties of real, momentarily existent, sub- > atomic particles. > ----------------------------------------------------- Howard: Except that what exists for the physicists, and what is its nature, keeps on changing! I've been tempted to ask my colleagues in the Physics Department whether thay are charter members of The Theory of the Month Club! ;-)) ------------------------------------------------------ > > ---------------------------- > H: >because on the face of it, an absolute reality and anatta don't > go together so very well! > > --------------------------- > > Anatta shouldn't be confused with nothingness. > ------------------------------------------------ Howard: That's correct. And I do not. ------------------------------------------------ As a characteristic > > of paramattha dhammas, it is inseparable from them. It forms part > of their sabhava (substance, inherent nature). It characterises > them as being without an abiding self, soul or entity. ----------------------------------------------- Howard: And please do note, Ken, that the word 'entity' means "existent". ------------------------------------------------ > > Ken H > ========================= With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 34514 From: Date: Fri Jul 9, 2004 3:30am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Abhidhamma Hi, Jon - In a message dated 7/9/04 10:14:41 AM Eastern Daylight Time, jonoabb@y... writes: > > > Hi, Howard > > --- upasaka@a... wrote: >Hi, Jon - > ... > >============================ > > Thank you for writing back. Your suspicion as to how your post > >might > >have been received by me is right on target as the tone of my reply > >surely > >makes clear. I apologize for expressing anger, and I do much appreciate > >this > >friendly follow-up post of yours. > > > >With metta, > >Howard > > There is no need to apologise. Re-reading the earlier messages in this > thread I see your comments in a different light. Perhaps I stepped in too > hastily -- an easy thing to do when trying to keep up with things on the > run so to speak. > > Talking of which, we have just had an amazing day's outing to the > permanent snowfields and glacier country above Zermatt. Once we climbed > (by chair lift) through a blanket of low lying cloud we found ourselves in > perfect sunshine and fresh, crisp snow, with views of the alps all around. > Quite spectacular. --------------------------------------------------- Howard: Oh, my! I am experiencing the rapidly alternating cetasikas of muditaa and envy!! ;-)) Your description is great, and your experience sounds *magnificent*!! I'm very happy for your having this lovely time. --------------------------------------------------- > > I'll get back to you on our other thread as soon as I can. Tomorrow we > move to Meiringen, where we'll be staying until the end of our visit. I'll > write again from there. > > Jon > =========================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 34515 From: Date: Fri Jul 9, 2004 3:27am Subject: Re: [dsg] On the topic of Sensation, Pleasure and Pain In a message dated 7/9/04 7:00:25 AM Pacific Daylight Time, upasaka@a... writes: Nori, I think Victor's reply was excellent. Feeling, whether pleasant, unpleasant, or neutral is "just that". It is just a matter of fact. The thing is that with folks such as us, the tanhic reaction to pleasant/unpleasant feelings follows so immediately (and dependably! ;-) that we typically cannot distinguish between "pleasant" and "I want it" or between "unpleasant" and "I want to be rid of it". === Howard, I agree with your comments. Where it gets interesting is when you substitute sex's pleasure in place of the pleasure expressed in the suttas. Many Buddhists have a problem with sex's pleasure being "just that." jack 34516 From: Dhammaasoka Date: Fri Jul 9, 2004 7:56am Subject: Re: Need clarification on a few subjects Hi Victor and all, > 1. The samatha and vipassana cannot be single out. Both should go hand in hand. V: I am not quite sure exactly what it means by the statement above. What do you think it means? === I mixed up the samatha with the jhana. The Reverend said the jhana is cultivated at the same time together with the vipassana. They cannot be separated. === > 3. He mentioned that we should discern body, feeling, mind and dhamma (the four subject of satipatthana) through feeling. His discription was, by watching the changes of the breath, we will be able to know the states of mind and dhamma as well as the body. V: Does it work for you? If not, how do you go about doing it? === I think we sense the touching the body to aware of the body. Buddha mentioned feelings consist of sukha, dukkha and neither sukha nor dukkha. As I still do not have any experience in noticing the cittas and dhamma (cetasikas), so I still cannot answer whether what the Reverend taught works for me or not. But it doesn't sound like what I understand from the suttas. ==== > 4. He mentioned that we can't "see" our past lives according to sutta. V: What do you think about that? === According to a few suttas, Buddha did say that we can discern clearly our past lives. === > Buddha teaches us to live now and then. The 11 ways of discerning is merely for us to understand the aspect of dhamma. (This one I found > conflicting with the teachings of Pa Auk Sayadaw, so I am not sure) V: What are the teachings of Pa Auk Sayadaw? === Pa Auk Sayadaw teaches the students to discern the eleven aspects of the nama and rupa. From my approach with some of his students, they do discern their past lives through the guidance of Pa Auk Sayadaw in order to discern and understand the 12 dependent origination. === > 5. The Reverend mentioned discerning internally, externally, internally and externally in the Maha Satipatthana sutta as discerning the six door as internally and the six respective object as externally and their relationship. He quoted one of the sutta that sound something like "what is the internal world--the six door; what is the external world--the six respective object" V: What do you think it should be? === I believe you have read my reply to Nina. J === > 6. He mentioned that the one-pointedness only exists from 2nd Jhana > and onwards. 1st Jhana only have the four factors. (I have tried to > search for suttas that have clear mention of the five factors and I > have mentioned this to Rob.M as well. Rob.M found 1 sutta from Mn19 > and I found 1 sutta from DN111) V: Actually it is MN43. DN consists of thirty-four suttas. Which sutta did you find from DN? ==== Sorry, misquoted the sutta, it should be MN111(?) The sutta is regarding the Buddha praising Rev Sariputta for his attainment of the nine Jhanas according to the sequence from mundane to supramundane. I am not sure of the numbering of the sutta as I actually refer to the Chinese translation version of the Nikayas. === With gratitude, Lee 34517 From: Sujjhana Bhinnatta Date: Fri Jul 9, 2004 11:07am Subject: Re: some caution and non-advice Hi everyone, I'm continuing this thread under the same subject even though there are several different discussions goin on within this thread as well as discussions related to this one in other threads. *************************************************** Ken:> I think something is a reality (is absolutely real) if it has its > own inherent nature (characteristics). So a paramattha dhamma is > inherently wholesome or unwholesome, desirable or undesirable and so > on. The opinion of an observer has no influence on these > characteristics. > As to whether there exist such things as ultimate realities, I think > the onus of proof is on those who say there isn't rather than those > who say there is. It is self-evident that there has to be > something, somewhere that is real. Otherwise, how could illusions be > created? **************************************************** B: Why is it self evident? Basing the existence of reality on the 'existence' of illusion is not exactly an air tight claim. I agree with Howard in saying the burden of proof lies in the one who makes a positive existential claim, however, by agreeing with Howard, I am in no way negating the existence of reality. Rather, it is our vain attempts at trying to grasp, comprehend, understand, disassemble, systematize, classify, and talk about reality that takes us further and further away from it. For when we do these things, there is an underlying assumption, built into the very structure of the language we use to think and communicate, that words and the entities/events they refer to, are permanent and unchanging structures with their own innate characteristics independent of any outside force or influence. The Buddha taught that this simply is not true. And yes, I feel some of the commentators to the Abhidhamma misunderstood this crucial point due to their clinging to wrong views. The Buddha taught that all things are characterized by anicca -- everything....EVERYthing is in constant flux and change; dukkha -- the inconstancy of all things real or imagined is stressfull and unsatisfactory; and anatta -- because of their inconstancy and stressfullness, none of these things can belong to an independent and enduring self; none of these things have their own inherent nature, independent of causes and conditions. These teachings arose from Buddha's insight into experience, not metaphysical speculation. The abhidhamma arose from insight into those teachings, not metaphysical speculation. They are different approaches, but both of them are consistent in their avoidance of the extremes of absolutism and materialism. ****************************************************** Ken:> It is not only the Dhamma that insists on there being an ultimate > reality: the laws of conventional science rely on the existence of > matter. They are the properties of real, momentarily existent, sub- > atomic particles. ******************************************************* B: An atom fifty years ago is hardly the atom of today. But regardless, if reality is self-evident, why is there science or religion? For us, and only us. For our own understanding and feeling of security. If indeed there is no self and it is self-evident that there is no self, then who needs the Abhidhamma to tell him so? Who needs to understand truth? I do. You do. We all do. The Buddha cautioned against the establishment of a metaphysical self, both personally and philosophically. He did not - and this is where some commentators IMHO get lost - deny the existence of an empirical self. The same holds true for all phenomena. Thus one can claim all day and night that "there is a rupa, there's a citta, hey! there's a vedana," but this is in no way different than someone else claiming "there goes a car, there's a tree, look at that sky!" I must stress for everyone reading these words, the expansion of what one considers Buddhism. Many of the discussions and arguments being discussed and argued have already been discussed and argued for the last 2500 years by men and women no different from you and I. An understanding of these discussions, where they lead and why they lead there, can do much to assuage the clinging to wrong views the Buddha warned against. Form is emptiness, emptiness is form. May you all be at peace. Bhinnatta 34518 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Jul 9, 2004 11:24am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:sampajano Hi Victor, I am always so impressed by the texts with atapii, sampajana, satima. I agree with you and Jon that these texts should not stay in the book, but should be applied and only thus can we understand their deep meaning. I like to look up some contexts, simply because I am so interested. Looking at PED under atapii: many sutta references. A sutta cross reference may also be very interesting. A very good idea of yours to mention these three words. I just start with sampajano. op 08-07-2004 21:17 schreef yu_zhonghao op yu_zhonghao@y...: > > You are welcome to provide those commentaries for consideration, as > I think the commentaries might be helpful to some. N: Victor, you remember that Suan gave a long list of Pali about sampajañña from the Book of Analysis (second book of the abhidhamma) and asked Sarah for the English? Well, I kept it at hand, I like it so much. In the Book of Analysis sampajañña is translated as awareness, and Sarah discussed this word with Suan. It is not so satisfactory.It is actually pañña cetasika. Here in the text it is taken together with sati: Suan: > Today I was reading Anguttara and Majjhima commentaries on > Aaka~nkheya Suttam (in both Nikaayas) where the term "vipassanaaya" > occurs. Aacariya Buddhaghosa defines Vipassanaa as Anupassanaa and > mentions 7 Anupassanaas. .... Sarah: If you have time to elaborate, I'd be interested. .... Suan: > The Bhaddekaratta Suttam highlights the urgency of the present > moment, so here the Buddha no longer cares about Samatha Jhaanas. > Without furhter ado, he simply asks us "to wisely observe the present > phenomenon wherever it arises (paccuppanna~nca yo dhammam, tattha > tatha vipassati)." . End quote post . N: Vipassanaa as Anupassanaa: anu means: closely following or: again. passanaa: seeing. A long time ago Larry and others had questions about this word. Understanding has to follow closely (anu) each dhamma that appears and scrutinize, investigate it, again and again (anu) while sati is mindful of it. Actually the three of atapii, sampajana, satima should be treated together, and I shall quote more later on from Soma (p. 54). I just go into sampajañña today. Victor, you remember that Larry posted Ven. Soma's Co on the Satipatthanasutta? We had such a good time before with Jim, ekaayano magga, the one and only Path. Here is more (p. 54): Sampajaano= clearly comprehending. Endowed with knowledge called circumspection [sampajañña]. Clearly comprehending= discerning rightly, entirely and equally [sammaa samantato samañca pajaanato]. Rightly= correctly (avipariitam]. Entirely= By knowing in all ways [sabbaakaarapa jaananena]. Equally= By reason of proceeding through the conveying of higher and higher spiritual attainments [uparuupari visesaavaaha-bhaavena pavattiyaa]. N: I think this refers to the development of pañña that evermore investigates the dhamma that appears, correctly, entirely, in all aspects, in all ways. It reaches higher and higher degrees. But first it has to begin, and then it is still weak and coarse. Later on it knows the dhamma that appears as conditioned, its impermanence, the three characteristics. Also: understanding leads to more and more detachment from conditioned dhammas. This must be the meaning of discerning rightly, entirely and equally. **** Book of Analysis, § 525 (p. 326). I cannot type the whole text. I think Sarah did this before. Wisdom is compared to a goad, a tower, light, lustre, splendour, jewel... *** This for today. We have to practise now the Brahmaviharas with my father, playing the stars from the sky by our music for him. I have to remind myself to wisely observe the present phenomenon here and there (tattha tattha), even though pañña is still weak and coarse. But there can be a beginning of . Absence of dullness, I like this reminder. Nina. 34519 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Jul 9, 2004 11:24am Subject: what I heard Dear Jon, I listened to MP 3. A. Sujin asked you in India: do you have possessions (sombat), and you were somewhat surprised. She then explained; when in deep sleep you have no possessions, you do not even have a name. No object is appearing through the senses, we do not know anything, not even our name. Also when seeing now you only experience colour and own not any possessions, you do not think of them. Seeing arises only for a moment then it falls away. We cling the whole day but we do not own anything. She also often says that we have to be brave and happy when developing pañña (athaan rarung). This is actually atapii: ardent. We have to be brave to continue developing pañña. Kom asked: we know that we have lobha and dosa, but is it not so that their characteristics can only be known after the first stage of insight? A. Sujin: We know that we have them, but when lobha arises it is still ours. It is nama but this does not mean that is has no characteristic. Lobha and dosa have their own characteristics, and we know when we have them, but we do not know them as nama dhammas. We know lobha is thus, dosa is thus, but they are still ours. They are elements, dhatus, and this can only be realized through insight knowledge. Thus first nama has to be known as nama and rupa as rupa. I am reminded here that nama has to be seen as nama, but that they are not neutral, that they are all different ones with different characteristics. Nina. 34520 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Jul 9, 2004 11:24am Subject: Tiika Vis. XIV, 85, Pali Tiika Vis. XIV, 85, Pali Vis. 85. Pali: yadaa pana ~naatijanassa pa.tipattidassanena jaataparicayaa baaladaarakaa bhikkhuu disvaa somanassajaataa sahasaa ki~ncideva hatthagata.m dadanti vaa vandanti vaa, tadaa tatiya.m citta.m uppajjati. yadaa pana ``detha vandathaati'' ~naatiihi ussaahitaa eva.m pa.tipajjanti, tadaa catuttha.m citta.m uppajjati. yadaa pana deyyadhammapa.tiggaahakaadiina.m asampatti.m a~n~nesa.m vaa somanassahetuuna.m abhaava.m aagamma catuusupi vikappesu somanassarahitaa honti, tadaa sesaani cattaari upekkhaasahagataani uppajjantiiti. eva.m somanassupekkhaa~naa.nasa"nkhaarabhedato a.t.thavidha.m kaamaavacarakusala.m veditabba.m. Tiika: ³Atthi dinnan²ti-aadi (ma. ni. 1.441; 2.95) nayappavattaaya sammaadi.t.thiyaa asambhavadassanattha.m baala-ggaha.na.m. The apprehension of ignorant children is stated in order to explain the non-origination of right view occurring in the way of ³There is giving² etc. Sa.msiidanussaahanaabhaavadassanattha.m sahasaa-gaha.na.m. There is apprehension at once in order to explain the absence of hesitation and urging. Somanassarahitaa honti pu~n~na.m karontaati adhippaayo. The cittas are devoid of pleasant feeling and this refers to the doing of meritorious deeds. Somanassahetuuna.m abhaava.m aagammaati ida.m nidassanamatta.m da.t.thabba.m. As to the expression, due to the absence of causes for joy, this should be seen merely as an example. Majjhattaaramma.natathaaruupacetosa"nkhaaraadayopi hi upekkhaasahagatataaya kaara.na.m hontiyevaati. A mediocre object that conditions the mind in that way etc. is the cause for the kusala citta to be accompanied by indifferent feeling. Evanti-aadi nigamana.m... As to the word thus, and so on, this is the conclusion... Tattha ~naa.nasampayuttaani cattaari yadaa tihetukapa.tisandhi.m uppaadenti, In this case, when the four types of kusala citta that are accompanied by wisdom produce rebirth with three roots, tadaa so.lasa vipaakacittaani phalanti... then kamma ripens as sixteen vipaakacittas... ***** Nina. 34521 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Jul 9, 2004 11:24am Subject: Tiika Vis. XIV, 85 Tiika Vis. XIV, 85 Tiika: The apprehension of ignorant children is stated in order to explain the non-origination of right view occurring in the way of ³There is giving² etc. N: The Tiika refers here to the third type of kusala citta, without right understanding of kamma and vipaka as stated by ³There is giving², namely, giving and its result, as explained in the Middle Length Sayings, no 41. Tiika:There is apprehension at once in order to explain the absence of hesitation and urging. N: The third type of kusala citta is spontaneous, without prompting. The Tiika explains here the text of the Vis. : Tiika: The cittas are devoid of pleasant feeling and this refers to the doing of meritorious deeds. N: The four last mentioned types of kusala citta are accompanied by indifferent feeling. The Tiika explains here the text of the Vis. : N: The Tiika then explains that the eight types of kusala cittas of the sense sphere have six classes of objects, namely as experienced through the sense-doors and through the mind-door. They motivate kusala kamma through the three doorways of body, speech and mind. We then read: Tiika: In this case, when the four types of kusala citta that are accompanied by wisdom produce rebirth with three roots, then kamma ripens as sixteen vipaakacittas. N: There are eight types of vipaakacittas with roots and eight types without roots which can arise in the course of one¹s life. Excellent kusala kamma with three beautiful roots, namely, wisdom, non-attachment and non-aversion, produces rebirth with three beautiful roots, and ripens in the course of life as sixteen types of vipaakacittas. There are eight types of sahetuka vipaakacittas: with wisdom or without it, accompanied by pleasant feeling or indifferent feeling, unprompted or prompted. The eight types of sahetuka vipaakacittas arising in a process are the cittas which are retention, tadaaramma.na cittas, after the javana-cittas (kusala cittas or akusala cittas) if a process takes its complete course. The tadaaramma.na-cittas can be of any of the eight types of sahetuka vipaakacittas. The other eight types of vipaakacittas are ahetuka vipaakacittas arising in a process. They are: the five kinds of sense-cognitions (seeing, etc.), receiving-consciousness (sapa.ticchana-citta) arising after the sense-cognition, and two types of investigation-consciousness (santiira.nacitta) that can arise after the receiving-consciousness. One type of investigation-consciousness is kusala vipaakacitta with indifferent feeling, and one type is kusala vipaakacitta with pleasant feeling arising in the case of an extraordinarily desirable object. The Tiika then mentions that twelve types of vipaakacittas instead of sixteen types can be the result of kusala kamma. Inferior kusala kamma with three beautiful roots and excellent kusala kamma with two beautiful roots, thus, without wisdom, can produce rebirth with two beautiful roots, and it ripens in the course of life as twelve types of vipaakacittas. Instead of eight types of sahetuka vipaakacittas four types arise in the course of life, since those with wisdom are excluded. Inferior kusala kamma with two roots produces rebirth that is ahetuka vipaakacitta and ripes in the course of life as ahetuka vipaakacittas, thus, only eight types of ahetuka vipaakacittas arise. In that case a person is handicapped from the first moment of life. The Tiika explains that even in an unhappy plane of existence, such as in the case of Naagas (serpent or demon) and Supa.n.nas (fairy birds) kusala kamma can produce pleasant results. A pleasant result cannot be produced by akusala kamma, it states. ***** Nina 34522 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Fri Jul 9, 2004 11:48am Subject: Re: On the topic of Sensation, Pleasure and Pain Hi Nori and all, No problem. Regarding your question, I won't speculate what the Buddha would do in that situation. However, your question got me doing some research on what is being said about smells, may it be stench or fragrance, in the discourses. So here are some passages and discourses I came across: Anguttara Nikaya III.126 Katuviya Sutta Putrid http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an03-126.html Anguttara Nikaya IX.15 Ganda Sutta A Boil http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an09-015.html Therigatha Chapter V -- The Fives http://tinyurl.com/3a43b [Redirecting link] V.4 -- Nanda's Vision {vv. 82-86} [Thanissaro Bhikkhu, trans.] "Sick, putrid, unclean: look, Nanda, at this physical heap. Through contemplation of the foul, develop your mind, make it one, well-centered. As this [your body], so that. As that, so this. It gives off a foul stench, the delight of fools." Considering it thus, untiring, both day & night, I, with my own discernment dissecting it, saw. And as I, heedful, examined it aptly, this body -- as it actually is -- was seen inside & out. Then was I disenchanted with the body & dispassionate within: Heedful, detached, calmed was I. Unbound. Dhammapada 4 Flowers http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/khuddaka/dhp1/04.html Perhaps these discourse will provide a different perspective on the issue of smells. Metta, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "nori" wrote: > Hi victor & jon, > > This is great. > > I can't thank you enough for clearing this up for me, and skillfully > finding a sutta to make the point exactly. > > So what do you think ? : > > If Gotama the Buddha with his retinue of arahants were residing at > some location and later there blew in this really horrible stench > that would not go away, and he had no reason to remain, then would > he say: 'Come samanas, let us go, this place is no longer a pleasant > abiding.' or would he remain and tolerate the stench ? > > > metta, > > nori [snip] 34523 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Fri Jul 9, 2004 0:32pm Subject: Re: Need clarification on a few subjects Hi Lee and all, Thanks for the reply. I am interested to learn more about the Chinese translation of the Nikayas. Is it online? Metta, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Dhammaasoka" wrote: > Hi Victor and all, > [snip] I am not sure of the numbering of the sutta as I > actually refer to the Chinese translation version of the Nikayas. > === > > With gratitude, > Lee 34524 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Fri Jul 9, 2004 0:49pm Subject: [dsg] Re:sampajano Hi Nina and all, Thank you for this message and the info on sati, sampajanna, and atappa. Best wishes to you and your family. Metta, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > Hi Victor, > I am always so impressed by the texts with atapii, sampajana, satima. I [snip] > even though pañña is still weak and coarse. But there can be a beginning of > . > Absence of dullness, I like this reminder. > Nina. 34525 From: Herman Hofman Date: Fri Jul 9, 2004 4:06pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: some caution and non-advice Hi Ken, I'm flashing off this little post while my tax papers lie on the desk looking at me. ===================================================== K> I think something is a reality (is absolutely real) if it has its own inherent nature (characteristics). So a paramattha dhamma is inherently wholesome or unwholesome, desirable or undesirable and so on. The opinion of an observer has no influence on these characteristics. As to whether there exist such things as ultimate realities, I think the onus of proof is on those who say there isn't rather than those who say there is. It is self-evident that there has to be something, somewhere that is real. Otherwise, how could illusions be created? ====================================================== I think it would be a more meaningful approximation to say that a dhamma *IS* a nature or characteristic, as opposed to *has*. I agree with you, reality is real. Or in the spirit of the line above; reality (sic). It is in the superimposition of structure or process on reality that reality can be lost in favour of embroilment in, you guessed it, structure or process. I am not saying that reality is not structured, I am just saying that the structure of reality is not experienced. I think the structure or process that lies behind the superimposition of "ultimate" or "absolute" is the ultimate deception. I'm sorry if I have repeated what has already been said in the excellent posts of Howard or Bhinnatta. Kind Regards Herman 34526 From: Andrew Date: Fri Jul 9, 2004 4:28pm Subject: Re: some caution and non-advice Dear Bhinnatta One of the perils of contributing to a group like DSG is that occasionally you get "lurkers" (like myself) butting in (like this) with half-baked questions/comments (like those below). (-: You rebuke Ken H for asserting that it is self-evident that there is *something* real, but then you make a comment like this : For when we do > these things [classify etc], there is an underlying assumption, built into the very > structure of the language we use to think and communicate, that words and > the entities/events they refer to, are permanent and unchanging structures > with their own innate characteristics independent of any outside force or > influence. The Buddha taught that this simply is not true. I'm sorry, but it's not self-evident to me that language and words inherently assume permanence and non-conditionality. That's a big call you are making - for me, it's bigger than Ken H's call. You go on to state what the Buddha taught. As far as I am aware, the Buddha taught using language and words and so did many arahants. If you are correct, their teachings inherently portray permanence and non- conditionality (even though they expressly state the opposite). Could it be wrong view to hold that worldlings can only be led away from "reality" (or "emptiness" if you prefer) by words and not closer to it? Best wishes Andrew 34527 From: seisen_au Date: Fri Jul 9, 2004 5:27pm Subject: [dsg] Re:sampajano Hi Nina, all, Nina wrote: > In the Book of Analysis sampajañña is translated as awareness, and > Sarah discussed this word with Suan. It is not so satisfactory.It > is actually pañña cetasika. Here in the text it is taken together > with sati: > see para > 525], absence of dullness, truth investigation, right view. This is > called awareness. thus of this mindfulness and this awareness he is > possessed, [see para 357], furnished. Therefore this is called >mindful and aware.> > Nina. Can sampajanna arise at the level of pariyatti, or is it strictly within the realms of patipatti and pativedha? Steve. ps. Nina, thankyou for your reply to my kamma vipaka question. 34528 From: kenhowardau Date: Sat Jul 10, 2004 0:22am Subject: [dsg] Re: some caution and non-advice Hi Howard, --------------------------- H : > I'm not bothered by the idea of a dhamma having specific characteristics. However, I think that referring to them as "inherent nature" and especially as "OWN inherent nature" is misleading because it is already a problem to even speak of a dhamma as having its own being, inasmuch as the "being" of any phenomenon is completely dependent on other, similarly dependent, conditions. The fleeting existence of dhammas is, itself, fully dependent, and not "inherent". > ----------------------------- It is imperative that we see conditionality in all things. In that way, we are not caught out by the apparent reality of concepts (people, places, things to do, etc.). Instead, we become aware of conditioned reality (nama and rupa). However, you seem to be extending that caution so far as to say, "Don't be caught out by the apparent reality of nama or rupa - there is only conditionality!" I'm not sure that warning is necessary. ---------------------------- H: > Also, isn't the word 'reality' good enough? Does one have to imply the even greater sense of substantial own-being in using the expression "ABSOLUTELY real"? > ------------------------------ No, it is fine to talk about realities as being distinct from concepts. However, sometimes the point has to be made that realities (dhammas) are absolutely real whereas concepts are, at best, only conventionally real. --------------------------- H: > [I think it is very important to choose language that suggests the emptiness/corelessness aspect of dhammas, inasmuch as language use affects thought.] --------------------------- Yes, empty of a self -- lacking the core of selfhood -- but no less real for that. ------------------------------- KH: > > As to whether there exist such things as ultimate realities, I think the onus of proof is on those who say there isn't rather than those > who say there is. It is self-evident that there has to be > something, somewhere that is real. Otherwise, how could illusions be > created? ---------------------------------------------------- > Howard: Well, I don't want to make a fuss over this issue, but the norm is that the burden of proof lies on the one who makes a positive existential claim. > ----------------------------------------------------- If I walked into your house, pointing to people and furniture and saying, "That's not real, that's not real," then I should have to explain myself. I would explain that only nama and rupa are real; the other things are mere concepts. Similarly, if you or Binnatta are saying, "Let alone mere concepts, even nama and rupa are not real," then you need to explain how that could possibly be the case. It is, after all, contrary to common sense -- something has to exist; otherwise, nothing would exist. ------------------------------------------------ KH: > > As a characteristic > of paramattha dhammas, it is inseparable from them. It forms part > of their sabhava (substance, inherent nature). It characterises > them as being without an abiding self, soul or entity. ----------------------------------------------- > Howard: And please do note, Ken, that the word 'entity' means "existent". ------------------------------------------------ Ah, but not when I use it. :-) I thought it meant `living being.' Having mislaid my dictionary, I will assume you are right and withdraw the word 'entity.' :-) Kind regards, Ken H 34529 From: Herman Hofman Date: Sat Jul 10, 2004 1:41am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Abhidhamma Hi Jon, The tax is still not finished, but then tax is never finished :-) I think there is a parallel between what I mean with quietness/mental silence and awareness free from sensuality and discursive and evaluative thought. With regards to the abhidhamma, I'd have to read it before I could really comment on what it teaches. From what I have read in secondary and tertiary sources, the abhidhamma does not lend itself to easy reading or understanding. To me the suttas teach the end of suffering, through renunciation of attachment to anything you care to mention. The suttas lend themselves to understanding. Something understood does not need to be remembered. A principle understood can be applied. The endless chain of words of the abhidhamma must be remembered until they are understood. If they are not understood they cascade around the skull. To the extent these incomprehensible words become objects of awareness again and again they are an affliction and prevent any progress towards the end of suffering whatsoever. Kind Regards Herman -----Original Message----- From: Jonothan Abbott [mailto:jonoabb@y...] Sent: Thursday, 8 July 2004 2:17 AM To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Abhidhamma Hi, Herman You say: > Awareness of the present moment rises and falls with it. One needs to be > quiet to see the ego struggle with its non-existence. I think you have mentioned the theme of 'quietness' in previous posts. I'd be interested to hear more about it. I know it has quite a role in some contemplative orders. Worth discussing further. Also your concept of 'mental silence'. Could you elaborate a little? One further comment. --- Herman Hofman wrote: ... > Some take pride in how wordy the Abhidhamma is. Yet when there is > awareness of the primary source of the Abhidhamma (reality) there is not > a single word in sight !!! Strange indeed that it should take so many > words to describe something so totally non-verbal. The present moment is > such a living, fluctuating reality, yet someone imagined this could be > captured in a valley of dry bones. Weird, totally weird. Do you then make a distinction between the suttas and the abhidhamma in this regard? Both are talking about the same truths, surely. > Some take pride in how difficult it is to master the Abhidhamma, they > take pride in just how many commentaries, and which ones, are necessary > to shed light on the intricate and subtle meanings in this great > intellectual masterpiece. And yet, somehow untangling this web of words > is considered a safer bet than mental silence, because in mental silence > there could be a self?? > > Awareness of the present moment rises and falls with it. One needs to be > quiet to see the ego struggle with its non-existence. Jon 34530 From: Herman Hofman Date: Sat Jul 10, 2004 4:53am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Abhidhamma Hi Ken, I've given up on the tax. ===================================== Hi Herman, It's too quiet here; I'm going to butt in on your butting in. :-) ===================================== H > You're more than welcome. ------------- H: > If a commentary or other secondary work, which purports to draw out the meanings of a primary source, introduces material not found in the primary source, then it is not a commentary, but becomes a primary source in its own right. > --------------- Which secondary work do you have in mind? The Abhidhamma is not a secondary work. ============================================================= H> Just recapitulating from my initial, short reply: When you say that the Abhidhamma comes first, I wonder if you mean that in a historical sense. Because there is no reference in the suttas to the Abhidhamma (not to be confused with abhidhamma or abhivinaya) but there is reference to the suttas in the Abhidhamma, I think the assumption that the suttas historically preceded the Abhidhamma is a safe one. Secondly, the vinaya and the suttas are strictly an oral tradition, while the Abhidhamma is strictly a written tradition. --------------- H: > The various flavours of Buddhism there for the savouring have sprung into existence because of their "commentarial drawing out" only. > ---------------------------- You've lost me. I think the major Buddhist schools rely on their own primary sources - including their own suttas. Maybe that's not what you mean. Are you saying the suttas are self-explanatory? ================================================== H> I prefer to think that all the Buddhist schools have the same Buddha myths in common. The suttas are the suttas. The drawings out are the drawings out. A good sutta is one that appeals to many, yet speaks to everybody at their own level. A bad drawing out is one that says "this is what it means, and only this". --------------- H: > Promotion of one drawing out over another are silly at best, and do nothing to encourage the student of reality to see for themselves, where the difference is going to be made. > ---------------- Lost again! :-) Which competing `drawing- outs' are we talking about? =================================================== H> There are many competing symbolic (verbal) interpretations of the suttas, no? The Theravadan tradition, for example, has rejected quite a number of commentaries. ------------------------- The Abhidhamma does not draw out the suttas: the Abhidhamma comes first. If anything, the suttas condense the Abhidhamma. ================================================= H> An interesting view which I don't agree with :-) --------------- H: > Reality requires no drawing out. > --------------- Why doesn't it? ================================================ H> Who has the onus of proof here :-) ---------------- H: > I could start pointing to material in the Abhidhamma that is not to be found in the Nikayas. > ----------------- There is nothing controversial about that. Both the Abhidhamma and the Nikayas are the teaching of the Buddha. Can you point to anything in the Abhidhamma that is contrary to the Nikayas? ====================================================== H > It is a contradiction to the max to write seven weighty volumes of views, including one volume on how to refute those who disagree with any of the views, to say : "Give up your views, or suffer the consequences". --------------------------- H: > This would then raise the possibility that others would go to some length to prove me wrong, or show, by some drawing out, how X actually means Y and that this is what the Buddha actually meant, even though it seems different. ----------------------------- When you and I read suttas, Y might seem to be saying X, but if the Abhidhamma and the ancient commentaries say it is Y, then Y it is. =========================================================== H > I hope that you can see this as just a view. It is possible to become aware of a dearly-held but groundless view in a controlling, determining self. It is also possible to become aware of projecting that dearly-held self view on to external things. Blind faith is nothing more than a well-disguised projected self-view. (I'm not a self, but that is / they are ) I know you are a strong advocate of paramattha dhammas. What are the commentaries and the Abhidhamma in terms of paramattha dhammas? ----------------- H: > I hope you can see that this would be an academic, fruitless exercise, amounting to nothing more than a projection of intentions. > ----------------- Forget the opinions of uninstructed worldlings; if something in the Tipitaka is unclear, let's ascertain the opinions of the ancient Theras. ===================================================== H > If you do not find any opinions in the suttas that suggest, recommend, praise a practice secluded from the world, you may as well consult the phonebook for your instruction. ------------------- H: > What is real is beyond question. > ------------------- When we don't understand what is real, questions are only natural. ===================================================== H > For some, agreed! ------------------ H: > If you find that the Theravadan Abhidhamma in its entirety is a valid and accurate description of everything experienced and experiencable, well, good for you :-). ------------------ Comprehensive, `see for yourself,' proof is some way off (even for Jon). In the meantime, if you can see any internal contradictions in the Theravada texts, please, point them out! ----------------- H: > What would be worth asking myself, if I found myself having such a view, is "Why this view?". ----------------- Because it is the view sought by students of Theravada Buddhism. ================= H > It is no skin of the Buddha's nose whether you just study his books, or actually do what they say to do. ----------------- H: > It is beyond imagination that the Bahiya Sutta and the Ultimate Book of Ultimate Views come from the same author. ------------------ Sorry, I don't know my suttas that well; what does the Bahiya Sutta say that is it irreconcilable with [what I assume you mean as] the Abhidhamma? ========================= H > I think you also mentioned that, like me, you had never read the Abhidhamma, but take your opinions about it from people that you like/trust (unlike me in that respect). I'll tell you what, you read the Abhidhamma and I'll reread the Bahiya sutta (not really necessary, I think it sank in the first time). Let me know when you're done, and then we can exchange views :-) ----------------- H: > Watch out for those cows with bells :-) ---------------- A joke appreciated by those who know the Bahiya Sutta, no doubt. Serves me right for butting in. Hey, "butting!" Get it? :-) ========================= Good one :-) Cheers, big ears :-) Herman Kind regards, Ken H 34531 From: Bhikkhu Samahita Date: Sat Jul 10, 2004 3:45am Subject: Noble Sympathy ! Friends: Please Maintain this Buddhist Wish of Noble Sympathy: May I be happy, may I maintain my happiness & live without any enmity. May all beings be successful and happy: May they be of joyful mind, all beings that breathe & have life, whether they are weak or strong, tiny or huge, visible or invisible, near or far away, born or to be born, let all beings enjoy safety, content, ease & bliss. Let no one deceive another, let no one be harsh in speech, let no one by anger or hatred wish ill to his neighbour. Even as a mother, at the risk of her own life, guards and protects her only child, so with a boundless heart of compassion, I venerate all living beings by permeating the entire universe with sympathy, above, beneath & all around without limit, immeasurable. Thus I cultivate an infinite Goodwill toward this whole world. Standing or walking, sitting or lying down, during all my waking hours I treasure this thought that this very way of caring, is thee indeed truly Noblest behaviour in this whole wide world. Thus shall I, by stilling pointless discussions & controversies, by acting blamelessly, be gifted with tranquillity & true insight. Thus shall I subdue sense-pleasure urge & never again know rebirth. May this inspire all beings to fulfil the conditions leading to Nibbana. May all beings be thus utterly liberated & released from suffering. May all beings thus escape the dangers of ageing, disease and death. Yeah ! For further inspiration: Living Buddhist Masters: http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=404507 Essential Practise: http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=403375 All yours in the Dhamma. Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. http://groups.msn.com/DirectDhamma/ http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Buddha-Direct/ http://www.smartgroups.com/groups/TrueDhamma 34532 From: Date: Sat Jul 10, 2004 3:54am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: some caution and non-advice Hi, Ken - In a message dated 7/10/04 3:28:51 AM Eastern Daylight Time, kenhowardau@y... writes: > >Howard: > And please do note, Ken, that the word 'entity' means "existent". > ------------------------------------------------ > > Ah, but not when I use it. :-) > > I thought it meant `living being.' Having mislaid my dictionary, I > will assume you are right and withdraw the word 'entity.' :-) > ========================= We're both right on this. Actually, one common meaning is, indeed, "living being", but rather much in the sense of a truly self-existent person or individual (a concept which we Buddhists need deal gingerly with ;-), and the root source of the word is the Latin "ens" referring to existence. Most generally the word means a separate, self-existent, independent "thing" The Webster entry is as follows: _________________________ Main Entry: en·ti·ty Pronunciation: 'en-t&-tE, 'e-n&- Function: noun Inflected Form(s): plural -ties Etymology: Medieval Latin entitas, from Latin ent-, ens existing thing, from coined present participle of esse to be —more at IS Date: 1596 1 a : BEING, EXISTENCE; especially : independent, separate, or self-contained existence b : the existence of a thing as contrasted with its attributes 2 : something that has separate and distinct existence and objective or conceptual reality --------------------------------------------- Notice especially the following elements of the foregoing definition that make the word 'entity' a poor one to use with regard to dhammas: "independent", "separate", "self-contained", and "existence contrasted with attributes". The word 'entity' suggests exactly the sort of self-existent, substantial core that the Dhamma is diametrically opposed to. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 34533 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sat Jul 10, 2004 10:45am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:sampajano Hi Steve, op 10-07-2004 02:27 schreef seisen_au op seisen_@h...: Here in the text it is taken together >> with sati: >> > see para >> 525], absence of dullness, truth investigation, right view. This is >> called awareness. thus of this mindfulness and this awareness he is >> possessed, [see para 357], furnished. Therefore this is called >> mindful and aware.> > S: Can sampajanna arise at the level of pariyatti, or is it strictly > within the realms of patipatti and pativedha? N: In the context of it is not merely intellectual understanding. More than that. Aataapii is a name for right effort, the four right efforts, here of the eightfold Path. Book of Analysis, para 525 makes clear what level of pañña is referred to: <...jewel of wisdom, absence of dullness, truth investigation, right view. This is called awareness [sampajañña]. Thus of this mindfulness and this awareness he is possesses,:P: furnished. Thus a bhikkhu mindful and aware [sampajano] approaches; mindful and aware he departs; mindful and aware he looks ahead....> Thus this is similar to in the section on Clear Comprehension. Also for the development of samatha sati sampajañña is necessary. The meditator should be aware and realize when there is lobha, when not, when the citta is kusala, and when akusala. He should be aware of all the different jhanafactors that should be developed. He needs keen pañña and not merely intellectual understanding. As to pariyatti and patipatti, these denote phases in the development of pañña, but it is difficult to draw a line between them, because also at the level of pariyatti there is a beginning of awareness of the dhammas one studies and considers. We hear time and again that seeing only experiences colour or visible object. That it is different from thinking of a person we perceive. While listening, could there never be also a moment of investigating with a degree (however weak) of awareness of seeing at that moment? And on the other hand, when there is patipatti one does not discard study and considering. They can and should be combined all along, but while studying the thinking can be realized more often as a nama-element. To me that seems very natural. One can always learn more details, more about the different conditions and consider them. Also enlightened disciples, even arahats listened to the Dhamma Discourses. There is also another aspect of sampajañña: the four kinds of clear comprehension (Soma, p. 85, and Dispeller of Delusion II, p. 72): of the right purpose (when going somewhere it should be a worthy purpose), of suitability (the place where one goes may be unsuitable or dangerous), of resort (gocara, the meditation subject) and of non-delusion (as to what nama is and what rupa). It is helpful to go somewhere where one meets the right person who explains the Dhamma so that one can learn to be aware of nama and rupa, knowing the right resort or kammatthaana, the right object of satipatthana. And in that way there will be non-delusion. I shall continue with the other texts about satima and aataapii. Nina. 34534 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sat Jul 10, 2004 10:45am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Every Paramattha dhamma Dear Azita, Tnak you for your letter, sorry about the delay. I hope your computer is O.K. now. op 03-07-2004 04:01 schreef gazita2002 op gazita2002@y...: so have been listening to tapes more than > reading and I find them very helpful. N: Could you share what you heard? A: As Acharn Sujin would say 'don't go away from the present moment', > and I feel it takes a great deal of patience to 'accept' this present > moment. So often we are thinking ahead, thinking behind, the sea of > concepts. Of course, we can be aware of thinking as just another > reality, if conditions are right... > this is a type of wrong view, is it not? if we think we can set > aside time to be aware. N: We better watch out, wrong view and wrong practice can slip in any time, so long as we are not sotapannas. A: I think we forget that distraction is real, often its just bad > feeling and that's what we want to get away from - well, in my case > anyway. N: A lot of thinking and you realize it only afterwards. But, no regret about any reality that arises, that is important. A: Have a nice time away Nina. Don't go falling in any rivers or > anything like that:) N: We want deserted places and that is what we get. Nina. 34535 From: Sujjhana Bhinnatta Date: Sat Jul 10, 2004 11:15am Subject: Re: some caution an non-advice Hi Andrew :-) You wrote: > One of the perils of contributing to a group like DSG is that > occasionally you get "lurkers" (like myself) butting in (like this) > with half-baked questions/comments (like those below). (-: ********************* B: I too was a lurker before I opened my big mouth. Sometimes lurking is the wiser thing to do. ;-) ********************* > You rebuke Ken H for asserting that it is self-evident that there is > *something* real, but then you make a comment like this : For when we do > these things [classify etc], there is an underlying assumption, built into the very > structure of the language we use to think and communicate, that words and > the entities/events they refer to, are permanent and unchanging structures > with their own innate characteristics independent of any outside force or > influence. The Buddha taught that this simply is not true. A:> I'm sorry, but it's not self-evident to me that language and words > inherently assume permanence and non-conditionality. ************************ B: Thats okay. Neither the Buddha nor I ever said it was supposed to be self-evident or obvious. Find out for yourself whether its true or not. ************************ A:> That's a big call you are making - for me, it's bigger than Ken H's call. You go > on to state what the Buddha taught. As far as I am aware, the Buddha > taught using language and words and so did many arahants. ************************ B: You are correct. The Buddha and all his disciples used words to communicate the dhamma to worldlings. They were able to do so because they were able to see the emptiness of words, seeing them as symbols, the use and meaning of which is completely dependent on circumstance. They did not have the assumption quoted above and mentioned in my previous post and were able to see the three characteristics even in language. In being mindful of their speech, they were very aware of what words were used, so as not to create too much confusion or ambiguity in the minds of their listeners; hence the numerous lists and all of the repetition we see in the suttas. The Abhidhammikas too were very aware of the emptiness of words, however they needed them to point the way to reality. Moreover, after the dhamma had been put into writing, I think the compilers of the abhidhamma had an even greater insight into the human tendency to want to cling to the perceived permanency of words. Many of the members of DSG are students of the Pali language. I would wager that many of them have directly experienced the difficulty in translating some words while at the same time trying to maintain their conceptual underpinnings. ************************ A:> If you are correct, their teachings inherently portray permanence and non- > conditionality (even though they expressly state the opposite). ************************ B: You've misread me. The teachings like all other things embody impermanence. And thats what they claim to do as well. The permanence and absolutism comes from our own wrong views, not from the teachings themselves. ************************ A:> Could it be wrong view to hold that worldlings can only be led away > from "reality" (or "emptiness" if you prefer) by words and not closer > to it? ************************ B: Yes, I think it is wrong view to hold that language only keeps us in bondage. Such a one-sided view is common amongst some Zen practicioners who hold that language by its very nature cannot convey reality in any skillfull way. So they do away with scriptural study altogether in favor of "just sitting." It is my opinion that holding such a view would negate the entire oral and scriptural tradition of Buddhism. This is not a view that I hold nor do I propound it. Friends, there are four ultimate realities. Why are they ultimate? Because they can be experienced and not merely thought about. They are not rupa, not citta, not cetasikas, but very real experiences that through conditioning one another create the All. They are not independent entities, self sufficient and unchanging. Consciousness arises with form and could not exist without it. Mental factors arise with consciousness and could not exist without it. Nibbana is the only unconditioned reality however in calling it such, we miss it completely. These four realities are neither 'ultimate,' nor 'reality,' nor 'four,' for such distinctions are still on the level of conception. However, to build a bridge from our mundane experience of a conceptual world to that of reality, we use concepts to rid ourselves of conception. We use definitions to understand that reality is not so defined. We mustn't get caught up in our own ideas about the truth. For 'truth' is still a concept and as such is open to myriad interpretations and reasoning. The truth is like a hurricane. Concepts and ideas spin all around gathering momentum and more ideas. Eventually it grows into an entire philosophy capable of destroying small islands. But the whole time, the truth, about which all these ideas and concepts spin with violent fury, is at its core completely calm and empty. I cannot express what I am trying to say any better than I already have in prior posts. I will leave you with a quote from Joseph Goldstein's book "The Experience of Insight" which does a far better job than I: "All of these ultimate realities can be experienced. The words we use to describe them are concepts which merely point to the experience. The meditation practice develops awareness of them beyond the words. We are all in the process of breaking the chains that keep us bound in the cave of ignorance [referring to a previous Plato reference]. Please understand that concepts should be used. It's not that once we experience a reality beyond the conceptual level we throw out the whole intellectual process. We have to use that process of mind in dealing successfully with the world, in living our lives. There are two levels of truth: one is conventional truth in which we use all these concepts of "man" and "woman" and "I" and "time" and "place." The other is ultimate truth which deals with the four realities. We can use concepts without being a slave to them." I would only add that even in the study of the Dhamma, we are dealing only with concepts. Thus it is the purpose and meaning of Buddhist meditation, to penetrate those concepts and experience the real. Which is something that cannot be done by classifying and playing around with words. May we all soon release ourselves from ourselves. May you all be happy, present, and mindful. Bhinnatta P.S. I would like to add that I have learned so much from this one simple discussion than I ever could from reading one hundred books. I sincerely express gratitude to all who keep me checking my e-mail. You are truly Bodhisattvas in my view. :-) 34536 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Sat Jul 10, 2004 2:00pm Subject: Re: some caution an non-advice Hi Howard, Ken H, Herman, Bhinnatta, and all, Please forgive me for butting in. I see that your discussion in this thread has become quite involved. While I won't comment directly and specifically on what's been written, I will try to share some thought and maybe it will provide a different perspective. First, the term "name-&-form", like the term "the five aggregates", refers to and encompasses all that are dukkha, all that are in the world: birth, aging, death, being with the unloved one, separation from the love one, going to war, gain, loss, status, disgrace, censure, praise, pleasure, & pain.....the list can go on and on. All these that are dukkha are subsumed under the term "name-&-form" or "the five aggregates." In other words, the term "name-&-form" or "the five aggregates" is much more general (or abstract, some might say) than the term, for instance, "birth" or "death" or "being with the unloved one." Metta, Victor 34537 From: Andrew Date: Sat Jul 10, 2004 4:29pm Subject: Re: some caution an non-advice Dear Bhinnatta Thank you for your fluent and fulsome response. I'm glad you gained something from putting your thoughts down on (computer) paper! (-: For myself too I find this is often a useful process - but for me it needs an awful lot of editing! I read your post in detail and in particular your thoughts on language and words. To be entirely honest, I can't see that you are saying anything different from what has been said on this list before by the Pali scholars or "Abhidhammikas". Everyone seems to accept that the Teachings describe the "direct experience" of reality, something beyond intellectual understanding. For this reason, your comment below may be controversial if it is taken as implying that Pali scholars/Abhidhammikas only ever seek to classify and play around with words. Bhinnatta: I would only add that even in the study of the Dhamma, we are dealing only > with concepts. Thus it is the purpose and meaning of Buddhist meditation, to > penetrate those concepts and experience the real. Which is something that > cannot be done by classifying and playing around with words. > Andrew: What you say above is true IMHO but we then need to acknowledge that there are differing views on the need for study, the role of study, the meaning of "meditation" and how to "experience the real". It may be that those differing views are correct for persons of different accumulations and that each approach has its own special pitfalls for the unwary. I recognise the pitfalls of language, but I'm not going to be so suspicious and dismissive of it that I can't see the advantages it may bring when used with wisdom. That would be like starting to dismantle the raft half way across to the far shore. Best wishes Andrew 34538 From: kenhowardau Date: Sat Jul 10, 2004 7:53pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Abhidhamma Hi Herman, ------------------------------------------ H: > When you say that the Abhidhamma comes first, I wonder if you mean that in a historical sense. Because there is no reference in the suttas to the Abhidhamma (not to be confused with abhidhamma or abhivinaya) but there is reference to the suttas in the Abhidhamma, I think the assumption that the suttas historically preceded the Abhidhamma is a safe one. ------------------------------------------ Your use of upper and lower case A's is the key, I think. Clearly, there was an abhidhamma before most of the suttas were delivered and before the Abhidhamma was assembled in its present form. In most instances, the people who heard the suttas had been thoroughly schooled in abhidhamma. They would have met arahants who, from the earliest times, had been sent out alone or in small groups teaching what, I feel sure, would have closely resembled the present-day Abhidhamma. ---------------------------- KH: > > Can you point to anything in the Abhidhamma that is contrary to the Nikayas? > > H: > It is a contradiction to the max to write seven weighty volumes of views, including one volume on how to refute those who disagree with any of the views, to say : "Give up your views, or suffer the consequences". > --------------------------- If, as you say, that is a contradiction, it is still not a contradiction between the Abhidhamma and the Suttanta. In both pitakas, it is taught that there can be right understanding and there can be wrong understanding. ---------------------------- KH: > > When you and I read suttas, Y might seem to be saying X, but if the Abhidhamma and the ancient commentaries say it is Y, then Y it is. > > H: > I hope that you can see this as just a view. > ----------------------------------- I can see that it is a view in the conventional sense of the word, and that it indicates the presence of view (ditthi) in the paramattha sense of the word. As to whether it is `just' ditthi, I'm not so sure. To the extent that it forms part of pariyatti (associating with the wise, hearing the true Dhamma and considering the true Dhamma), it is more than just a view it is the beginning of right view (samma-ditthi, panna). ------------- <. . . > H: > I know you are a strong advocate of paramattha dhammas. What are the commentaries and the Abhidhamma in terms of paramattha dhammas? -------------- That sounds like a useful exercise; I will have a go at it, but remember it will be just my humble opinion. The words of the Pali Canon and its [arahant] commentaries are concepts. When correctly understood, they are concepts that refer to paramattha dhammas. (This opens a whole new topic of discussion – i.e., that the Dhamma imparts only ultimate truth (paramattha sacca) not conventional truth and not a combination of the two.) But they are not just concepts that refer to paramattha dhammas. Somewhere in amongst all those concepts there is a teaching that only a Tathagata can make known. I sometimes wonder if there is a supernatural ingredient of some kind. I have mentioned this to Sukin but I only got confused and self-contradictory. I am happy to let it ride for the time being. :-) ----------------- H > If you do not find any opinions in the suttas that suggest, recommend, praise a practice secluded from the world, you may as well consult the phonebook for your instruction. ------------------- Here, we can throw identical accusations at one another. I say your conventional understanding of seclusion belongs in a phonebook more than in a Dhamma book. There are only dhammas. Remote forests, empty caves and deserted cemeteries are mere concepts (non-existent in the ultimate sense). In the ultimate sense, the dhammas of the present moment comprise the world. If those dhammas include alobha then there is seclusion from the world. So, from Dhamma books we learn true seclusion; from other books we learn, at best, conventional seclusion. (Does your phonebook list rural subscribers?) :-) ------------- H > It is no skin of the Buddha's nose whether you just study his books, or actually do what they say to do. ------------- Far from being mutually exclusive, the two are mutually inclusive. Study (pariyatti) is an intellectual level of practice described in the books as leading to direct practice (patipatti), which leads to enlightenment (pativedha). ----------------- H > I think you also mentioned that, like me, you had never read the Abhidhamma, but take your opinions about it from people that you like/trust (unlike me in that respect). I'll tell you what, you read the Abhidhamma and I'll reread the Bahiya sutta (not really necessary, I think it sank in the first time). Let me know when you're done, and then we can exchange views :-) -------------- What a boon it was to discover the works of K Sujin and her students! Before that, the Abhidhamma read like intellectual mumbojumbo. Let alone the Abhidhamma (which at least sets things out for beginners) the Sutta-pitaka was a minefield: suttas meant just about anything I wanted them to mean. So don't hold your breath: I won't be reading the Abhidhamma from cover to cover. I will bide my time here at DSG making occasional forays into the original texts. Ken H PS: Now get back to the tax, and yes you were right about my working for the ATO (do you have ESP?): I was an investigations officer, but that was long, long ago. 34539 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Sun Jul 11, 2004 0:30am Subject: [dsg] Re: Abhidhamma Hi Ken H, For more on what is being said about the Abhidhamma, here is a link to a message posted earlier: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/34474 Metta, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > Hi Herman, > [snip] > > Ken H [snip] 34540 From: Bill Saint-Onge Date: Sun Jul 11, 2004 4:10am Subject: Dedication of New Meditation temple Hello All, For people on this forum who happen to live in southern Michigan, this Saturday July 17 the Dhammasala Forest Monastery will dedicate it's new Meditation Temple. This is an all day affair beginning with almsround at 10:30, and then etc etc though the day (dhamma talk at 2:00) and ending with Thai dancing at 3:30. There will be abbots visiting from Chicago, D.C., and Wisconsin. There will also be a guided tour of the grounds of this forest-style Thai wat. Also in attendance will be Chao Khun Amorn, President of the Dhammayutika monks of the US, and the Thai Consulate to the United States. This is a wonderful practice environment, and if you haven't visited it before, this saturday would be a great time for an introduction-- and to eat more Thai food than humanly possible. Wat Dhammasala is located north east of Lansing, not far, and only about 20 minutes north of I-96. Contact me offline at armyponcho_dot_dad@y... if you need a map, etc. Bill Ann Arbor 34541 From: Herman Hofman Date: Sun Jul 11, 2004 6:06am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Abhidhamma Hi Ken, Thank you for your reply. I am persuing this discussion in the following spirit. The history of the Abhidhamma is not a matter of life or death for me. I do not look for absolute fact in history, but I think it is possible to come to better and worse approximations. And it is always interesting and revealing to see how various historical interpretations function to prop up a multitude of other views in the present. ------------------------------------------ H: > When you say that the Abhidhamma comes first, I wonder if you mean that in a historical sense. Because there is no reference in the suttas to the Abhidhamma (not to be confused with abhidhamma or abhivinaya) but there is reference to the suttas in the Abhidhamma, I think the assumption that the suttas historically preceded the Abhidhamma is a safe one. K: > Your use of upper and lower case A's is the key, I think. Clearly, there was an abhidhamma before most of the suttas were delivered and before the Abhidhamma was assembled in its present form. In most instances, the people who heard the suttas had been thoroughly schooled in abhidhamma. They would have met arahants who, from the earliest times, had been sent out alone or in small groups teaching what, I feel sure, would have closely resembled the present-day Abhidhamma. ---------------------------- H:> Here are a few reasons why I'll stick to my story for the time being :-) 1 There is no mention of an abhidhamma at the First Council. 2 Majjhima Nikaya 143, Anathapindikovada Sutta sets forth the kind of advanced teaching given to one gone forth. It takes up less space than this post will. 3 The P.T.S Pali English dictionary says that Abhidhamma, as the name of the Third Pitaka, appears only in the Chronicles and Commentaries. Gotta go. The F1 is just about to come on. Catch you later Herman 34542 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Jul 11, 2004 0:02pm Subject: with ardour Dear all, getting back to Sarah's message to Suan: re: text of Book of Analysis (Vibhanga): 550. “Mindful and aware means: therein what is mindfulness? that which is mindfulness, constant mindfulnes, [see para 220], right mindfulness. This is called mindfulness. Sarah: We have already discussed how awareness is rather inadequate for sampajanno (clear comprehension, wisdom etc). I also tend to pause rather at translations using constant mindfulness’ (here for anussati). Nina: anu, as I said before, can mean following closely. A nama or rupa appears now, and mindfulness can be aware of it, and in that sense it follows it closely. While seeing occurs, there is at that moment only seeing, no sati, but sati can be aware of its characteristic just after it has fallen away. Anussati is sometimes translated as recollection. There is non-forgetfulness of the dhamma that appears. I quote now § 524: Ardent: aataapii. In the Co to the satipatthanasutta by Ven. Soma (p. 53) it is explained that ardour is a name for energy. We read (p. 54) in the Subco. a gloss about mindfulness: The Co text continues: The subco explains: Visuddhimagga: I, 7: The Visuddhimagga begins with this verse: The Visuddhimagga explains the purification of virtue, siila, including all levels of kusala (I, 140), even up to arahatship. There cannot be purity of siila without satipatthana, because, without it we take all kusala for mine and self. Concluding with some quotes from A. Sujin's Perfections, about viriyaarambha, as explained by the Co. to the Mahaa-Niddesa (Tuva.taka Sutta). Aarambha is attempt, inception of energy. We read: <³Effort is called Œaarambha¹ because it is striving. The term viriyaarambha renders the characteristic of that kind of striving. What kind of striving? It is striving by way of escaping from idleness. Onward effort is so called by virtue of reaching a higher and higher state. Exertion is so called by virtue of rising up and keeping going. Endeavour is so called by virtue of special exertion; zeal, of being zealous; vigour, of firmness; fortitude, of bearing (supporting) citta and cetasikas, or of bearing the continuity of kusala by unbroken procedure.² These are the characteristics of viriya. It is the escaping from idleness, progressing towards a higher state, continued exertion without stopping, zeal and fortitude by progressing on. We read in the Commentary: ³Another method of exposition: -This viriyarambha is Œstriving¹ in expelling lust, Œonward effort¹ in cutting the bonds, Œexertion¹ in escaping from the floods, Œendeavour¹ in reaching the further shore, Œzeal¹ in being a forerunner, Œardour¹ in exceeding the limit, Œvigour¹ in lifting the bolt (of ignorance), and Œfortitude¹ in producing steadfastness. ¹Verily, let the skin, veins and bones dry up¹ - thus by virtue of unfaltering effort at such time is the Œstate of a man of unfaltering effort¹.² The Commentary explains further that energy does not let go of the desire-to-do, chanda (which is necessary to accomplish something), that it does not give up the task, and does not give in to discouragement with regard to the performing of kusala.> N: When I read the words: Ardent, clearly comprehending and mindful, aataapii sampajano satima, I am reminded to wake up from mental lassitude, indolence and inward stagnation, to be attentive to the task that is right at hand. That is to say, not give in to discouragement with regard to the performing of kusala, not giving up listening to the Dhamma and considering the reality that appears, so that conditions are accumulated for the arising of right mindfulness and right understanding. This is necessary in all circumstances. Nina. 34543 From: kenhowardau Date: Sun Jul 11, 2004 2:47pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Abhidhamma --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "yu_zhonghao" wrote: > Hi Ken H, > > For more on what is being said about the Abhidhamma, here is a link > to a message posted earlier: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/34474 > > Metta, > Victor Hi Victor, Yes, don't worry, I have been reading all your posts. This one is only a few days old. It is the first in a trilogy: 1, the Abhidhamma teaches paramattha dhammas 2, paramatha dhammas are metaphysics and 3, metaphysics are wrong view. I know you mean well, Victor, but do you know where this path of yours is leading? Beware of the most popular (and most simplistic) of all religious beliefs: namely, that there is only one Truth, God or Universal Soul and, eventually, we will all be reunited with it: All the great teachers -- Moses, Gotama, Jesus, Mohammed -- taught the same Truth but in different ways. The way taught by the Buddha was especially tricky: it was a `not-self' way of bringing us back to our Eternal Self. You might think I am being paranoid, but consider this quote from Access to Insight: "In this sense, the anatta teaching is not a doctrine of no- self, but a not-self strategy for shedding suffering by letting go of its cause, leading to the highest, undying happiness. At that point, questions of self, no-self, and not-self fall aside. Once there's the experience of such total freedom, where would there be any concern about what's experiencing it, or whether or not it's a self?" (end quote) So the Buddha did not really teach anatta at all! That was just a ruse to lead us back to our eternal soul. Don't be taken in by this New Buddhism, Victor. It can only be sustained if we discredit first, the ancient commentaries, then the Abhidhamma and then the Suttanta and the Vinaya. What will we put in their place, the Holy Bible? The Buddha predicted this would happen. The true Dhamma comes to light for a while, then it is discredited and the world is plunged back into darkness. During an interminable reign of Wrong View, the only known hope is for an eternal soul and the only known alternative is annihilation. No wonder the Buddha said that Wrong View (eternalism / annihilationism) was the greatest of all evils. Should we get depressed about this great evil? How many tortured souls will be turned on the wheel of samsara? A trillion, a zillion, a zillion zillion? No, according to the Buddha, not a single soul will suffer. There is no soul, there are only dhammas. Wrong View is only a conditioned dhamma and as such, it is anicca, dukkha and anatta. There is no `you' `me' `them' or `us.' Good news, don't you think? :-) Kind regards, Ken H 34544 From: Date: Sun Jul 11, 2004 4:28pm Subject: Vism.XIV 86 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) Ch. XIV 86. I. B. The consciousness of the 'fine-material sphere' is fivefold, being classed according to association with the jhana factors. That is to say, (9) the first is associated with applied thought, sustained thought, happiness, bliss, and concentration, (10) the second leaves out applied thought from that, (11) the third leaves out sustained thought from that, (12) the fourth makes happiness fade away from that, (13) the fifth is associated with equanimity and concentration, bliss having subsided. 34545 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Sun Jul 11, 2004 7:44pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Abhidhamma Hi Ken H, Thank you for the message. So I believe you have also read the messages #34476 and #34477 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/34476 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/34477 on what metaphysics and/or ontology are about. Metta, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "yu_zhonghao" > wrote: > > Hi Ken H, > > > > For more on what is being said about the Abhidhamma, here is a > link > > to a message posted earlier: > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/34474 > > > > Metta, > > Victor > > Hi Victor, > > Yes, don't worry, I have been reading all your posts. This one is > only a few days old. [snip] > > Kind regards, > Ken H 34546 From: nori Date: Mon Jul 12, 2004 1:08am Subject: Re: On the topic of Sensation, Pleasure and Pain Hi Victor, Jon and all, I have discovered that it is possible through exertion of ones will/intention to objectively experience sensations, without reacting with the pleasure which is normally derived from it. For example (and you can try this) when eating food which one finds pleasing, it is possible through ones own volition to experience only the sensations which are derived from eating this food (the texture, temperature, taste, etc.), and not react with the pleasure which would normally follow ("mmmmm, this tastes good, ahhhhhh"); one can, by ones own volition/intention/will suspend this reaction of ?ereceiving?f or 'taking' the pleasure which is derived from it. From our previous discussion, we have determined that certain 'Forms cognizable via the eye, ...sounds cognizable via the ear... aromas cognizable via the nose... flavors cognizable via the tongue... tactile sensations cognizable via the body' are inherently ?e-- agreeable, pleasing, charming?f. So then what do think is good practice (as proclaimed by Gotama Buddha) when we encounter these things: Do we: a) Allow the natural reaction of pleasure to follow through without indulging further or b) exert our will and intention to objectively experience the senses without reacting ? metta, nori 34547 From: Date: Mon Jul 12, 2004 1:42am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Abhidhamma Hi, Victor (and Ken) - In a message dated 7/11/04 10:45:13 PM Eastern Daylight Time, yu_zhonghao@y... writes: > > Hi Ken H, > > Thank you for the message. So I believe you have also read the > messages #34476 and #34477 > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/34476 > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/34477 > > on what metaphysics and/or ontology are about. > > Metta, > Victor ============================ I presume that your point is that metaphysics and ontology involve questions which, according to the Buddha, are not useful in that don't conduce to liberation, and should thus be avoided. In part of one article you quote the following: "it [metaphysics] can be identified as the study of any of the most fundamental concepts and beliefs about the basic nature of reality, on which many other concepts and beliefs rest -- concepts such as being, existence, universal, property, relation, causation, space, time, event, and many others." It does occur to me, though, that it is a matter of degree and of specific content as to what "metaphysics" the Buddha rules out as not useful. Are not the tilakkhana in the category of "basic nature of reality", and do they not involve "property"? Does not paticcasamuppada involve both "relation" and "causation"? And does not anicca involve all of "being", "existence", "time", and "event"? I agree that the Buddha trains one to *look and see directly* observing that the nature of things is as he taught rather than to memorize and contemplate loads of conceptual details, and that the purpose of the Dhamma is not intellectual gratification but liberation. But might not it be an overstatement to say that no metaphysics whatsoever (whether phenomenalist or existentialist or whatever) is involved with the Dhamma? With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 34548 From: Bhikkhu Samahita Date: Sun Jul 11, 2004 2:59am Subject: Useless ... Friends: The Invisible Mental Treasure: The Buddha said: I, Bhikkhus, do not know of even one other single thing, which brings so much pain as the untaught & untrained mind! Such useless mind, Bhikkhus, carry much suffering.. I, Bhikkhus, do not know of even one other single thing, which brings so much pleasure as the refined & trained mind! Such fully capable mind, Bhikkhus, gives great bliss.. Full text: http://uk.geocities.com/bhikkhu_samahita/Canon/Sutta/AN/AN.I.5-6.htm All yours in the Dhamma. Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. http://groups.msn.com/DirectDhamma/ http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Buddha-Direct/ http://www.smartgroups.com/groups/TrueDhamma 34549 From: Bhikkhu Samahita Date: Sun Jul 11, 2004 10:08pm Subject: Quite Capable ! Friends: Succesful Operator: The Buddha said: Bhikkhus, I do not know even one other single thing, leading so much away from any goal as the untamed, unguarded, unprotected & uncontrolled mind. Such untamed, unguarded, unprotected & uncontrolled mind misses any aim! Bhikkhus, I do not know even one other single thing, leading so directly to whatever goal as the tamed, guarded, protected & controlled mind. Such tamed, guarded, protected & controlled mind indeed reaches any aim! Full text: http://uk.geocities.com/bhikkhu_samahita/Canon/Sutta/AN/AN.I.6-7.htm All yours in the Dhamma. Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. http://groups.msn.com/DirectDhamma/ http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Buddha-Direct/ http://www.smartgroups.com/groups/TrueDhamma 34550 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Jul 12, 2004 6:38am Subject: Re: [dsg] dialogue about kusala. Dear Nina and All --- nina van gorkom wrote: > Dear Jon, > It is nice to hear from you so regularly. We are now in Meiringen, from which the 'merangue' takes its name, and famous also as the scene of death of Sherlock Holmes the fictional detective, at the Reichenbach Falls here. Our hotel has a good view of the R. Falls, and we visited there today in cloudy, stormy weather (appropriately). Then went far up the valley. Everything in M. was closed yesterday, so glad to be able to check in again today. > The music driving you crazy made me laugh. You and crazy??? You bet. You've only ever seen my 'good' side ;-)). Was put to the test last night by a bunch of rowdy young students from USA in the rooms above and all around us. Mixed kusala and akusala arose ... > op 07-07-2004 19:59 schreef Jonothan Abbott op jonoabb@y...: > > On this post, Kate wondered why we talk so much about kusala. She > thinks > > that taking enjoyment in the mountain views and the wild-flowers is > > beneficial ('food for the soul', she calls it) and can't be bad, > although > > she can see that enjoying food, for example, is self-centred. > N: Yes, I also need nature, it helps me to recover, good for the eyes > after > all the computer work. Kate was glad to hear this and the rest of your message. Thinks she has a soul mate in you!¨ Sarah sends her regards to everyone, and says she's greatly enjoying all the messages. Jon 34551 From: Herman Hofman Date: Mon Jul 12, 2004 7:14am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Abhidhamma Hi Ken, Some more reply. ====================== KH: > > When you and I read suttas, Y might seem to be saying X, but if the Abhidhamma and the ancient commentaries say it is Y, then Y it is. > > H: > I hope that you can see this as just a view. > ----------------------------------- I can see that it is a view in the conventional sense of the word, and that it indicates the presence of view (ditthi) in the paramattha sense of the word. As to whether it is `just' ditthi, I'm not so sure. To the extent that it forms part of pariyatti (associating with the wise, hearing the true Dhamma and considering the true Dhamma), it is more than just a view it is the beginning of right view (samma-ditthi, panna). ============================================ I very much like what you consider pariyatti - associating with the wise, hearing the true Dhamma and considering the true Dhamma. Could you or someone else please provide a link to the suttas where the associating with the wise etc is referred to as pariyatti? All I can find is commentary material which suggests that pariyatti is learning the Scriptures by heart. The more I study about the books which make up the Theravadin tradition, the more I see a chasm between the Nikayas and what has followed them. The following may be the quirkiest thing you've ever heard, but I believe there is an enormous difference between hearing the Dhamma, and reading a book. Unless what is read is heard, I just do not think it is possible to hear the Dhamma when reading a book. You wrote to Victor: "The true Dhamma comes to light for a while, then it is discredited and the world is plunged back into darkness. During an interminable reign of Wrong View, the only known hope is for an eternal soul and the only known alternative is annihilation. No wonder the Buddha said that Wrong View (eternalism / annihilationism) was the greatest of all evils." I believe the discrediting of the Dhamma started not long after the Buddha's death, and it is intertwined with the development of that black art known as writing. Reading/writing is the foundation for a profound change in human consciousness. Literacy is a compounding of conceptualization that goes way beyond speech. I think it is nigh on impossible for a literate mind that feeds itself more literacy to see clearly and directly the simple truths that the Buddha spoke. The written dhamma produces no stream enterers. The mind that reads is just too far removed from reality. (A little test - look at this post on your screen and see if it is possible to *not* see meanings in the black and white shapes - rest assured , there are none, but you see them anyway, and you can't do a thing about it!!!) I'm sorry if this is a bit looney :-) But then, so is becoming :-) Thanks for reading Herman 34552 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Jul 12, 2004 8:50am Subject: Re: [dsg] On the topic of Sensation, Pleasure and Pain Hi, Howard --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Jon - ... > =========================== > Again, there may indeed be no advantage at all even if the theory > that > non-neutral vedana issues forth only from contact with bodily sensation, > but > I still tend to think there *is* an advantage. When there is heightened > attention directed towards bodily sensation, given that such sensation > is the source > of non-neutral vedana and that attention is "focussed" at that very > point, > vedanupassana would tend to arise as well. Moreover, inasmuch, according > to the > same theory, as mindstate frequently produces bodily sensation, > attention to > bodily sensation makes it easier to pick up on the closely preceding and > causative mindstate. Thus it would seem that should the theory be true, > a big "if" > of course, then mindfulness of bodily sensation may also tend towards > mindfulness of the second and third foundations of mindfulness, and when > these three > reach their pinnacle, then the fourth foundation of mindfulness > (involving > direct awareness of such things as the tilakkhana, the four noble truhs, > and > dependent origination) would come into play... I feel there is a danger in such speculation (as I think you agree this is), in that it tends to lead us away from awareness of the presently arising dhamma. The reason I say this is that if we tend to the idea that awareness of one particular kind of dhamma or another is particularly advantageous, then there is likely to be the tendency to achieve awareness of that particular dhamma to the exclusion of other dhammas. I find no support in the texts for making this kind of directed effort. Suttas such as the Satipatthana Sutta discuss the importance of awareness of all dhammas, without distinction. > ... Again, this is all > hypothesizing, Jon, > and I agree that there is nowhere in any sutta that I have read any of > this > addressed. All that I have noticed is the close relatioj in the suttas > between > sensation and vedana, and the great emphasis placed on mindfulness of > the body, which is suggestive, but nothing more. I agree that mindfulness of the body is praised by the Buddha, but it is not alone in that regard. (I'm puzzled by your reference here to 'the close relation in the suttas between [bodily?] sensation and vedana'; grateful if you could elaborate on this. Thanks.) Jon 34553 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Jul 12, 2004 9:03am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Need clarification on a few subjects Hi, Victor --- yu_zhonghao wrote: > Hi Jon and all, ... > > Understanding at the experiential level (patipatti, 'practice') > must be > > preceded by correct understanding at the intellectual level > (pariyatti). > > I would not see it as a trial and error kind of thing, > as 'exploration' > > seems to imply. > > > This is how I see it: > Knowing how to ride a bicycle is a kind of experiential knowledge > that is to be acquired through actually sitting on a bike trying. > And trial and error is part of the process of learning and mastering > the skill of riding a bicycle. Learning and progress involve trial > and error; i.e., trying different approaches to see if it works, > until one masters the skill. Another example is learning math. One > reads the textbook and listens to the teacher, and that is part of > learning process. However, a deep and thorough understanding/ > mastery of the subject matter or a skill comes from actually doing > it, i.e., by solving problems. That is one's experiential knowledge > about math. I have no argument with your description of the learning process, but I question its relevance to the present context. The Buddha never suggested that the development of the path was a matter of trial and error. It is significant that in the case of mindfulness of breathing, for example, the text makes clear that the person being described is a person who is already well skilled in that practice and is able to 'set mindfulness to the fore'. Only of such a person can it be said that 'mindful he breathes in' etc. As far as I'm aware, there is no instance in the texts of the Buddha recommending a 'practice' in the 'trial and error' sense of any kind. Jon 34554 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Jul 12, 2004 9:19am Subject: Re: [dsg] On the topic of Sensation, Pleasure and Pain Hi, Nori I think Victor has already given some useful comments on this, but I would like to add a word or two. --- nori wrote: > Hi John & Victor, ... > So what do you think ?: > > Is it not the case that if you found a place 'pleasant', that one is > already at that point 'taking pleasure' or 'participating in carnal > indulgence' in those sense door experiences, and likewise if that > one found a place 'unpleasant' then is he not already at that moment > reacting with aversion to that sense door experience ? It is clear from the suttas and the abhidhamma that the moment of 'taking pleasure' in a sense-door object is a different moment to the (earlier) moment of experiencing the object through the sense-door. The moments of experiencing the object through the sense-door are moments of vipaka citta (result of past kamma), while the moments of 'taking pleasure' in a sense-door object are moments of akusala citta (unwholesome consciousness). At the earlier moment of vipaka citta, the object is already pleasant or unpleasant in nature. Of course, this distinction is not readily apparent to us, as we have not developed the panna that allows these different kinds of consciusness to be seen as they are. > Is it not akusala (unwholesome) already at the moment one > has 'aversion' or 'liking', which results in 'pleasant' > or 'unpleasant' feeling ? Yes, but the object is by nature pleasant or unpleasant at the earlier moment of being experienced by the sense-door consciousness (vipaka citta). > For if there were no 'aversion' or 'liking' to sense door > experiences then nothing would be pleasant or 'unpleasant' there > would only exist neutral feeling for those sense-door experiences. Not so, as I understand it. The pleasantness or unpleasantness of the object is independent of the liking of or aversion to the object. > Does not 'pleasant' experience, already at that moment of feeling - > 'this is pleasant' result in inevitable attachment, and craving > resulting in suffering when it is not present ? If there is craving it will be accompanied by pleasant feeling. But craving is not an inevitable response to a pleasant object. Sometimes the citta can be kusala, in which case there will be pleasant object but no craving. Jon 34555 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Jul 12, 2004 9:33am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: some caution and non-advice Hi, Bhinnatta --- Sujjhana Bhinnatta wrote: > Hello Jon, .. > B: The significance of these references as a teaching tool is not what > is in > question. Faith in the Buddha as a teacher and master of skillful > (kusala) > means, leaves no doubt as to the necessity and centrality of these terms > and > concepts. A teaching tool? That's a bold statement :-)). Are you saying there is an underlying meaning that is not fully disclosed by the Buddha but that becomes apparent to those who are able to see through the superficial presentation? ... > I apologize for this long winded response. To answer your question, the > significance I see in these references, whether in the suttas or the > abhidhamma, lies in their use by the human facilities of conception, > analysis, and language -- the very factors that keep us bound to samsara > -- > to build a boat that will carry us to the shore of the unconditioned. > The > suttas build a boat out of our ordinary ideas of the world, humans, > animals, > devas, suffering, stress, hatred, greed, and meditation. The boat is > made of > wholesome views, skillfull practices, and moral behavior. The abhidhamma > builds its boat by removing these concepts from their context, stripping > them of any personal or absolute status and then describing how these > seemingly unrelated elements/events interact, condition, and depend on > one > another in the creation of experience. Neither boat can be called > 'ultimate,' for to do so would be to bore a hole right through the > bottom of > the boat whereby it sinks into the bottomless ocean of suffering. > > *************************************************** > Jon:> Do you disagree with the view that these are the > > objects of insight the developoment of which leads eventually to > > enlightenment? > *************************************************** > > B: I'm not sure what you mean by 'objects of insight,' but I would > certainly > disagree with the view that the buddha set up some sort of over-arching > psychology, with a reductionist form of absolutism as its basis. Take > away > the absolutism...stop comparing the Dhamma to psychology...and drop the > metaphysical assertions, and then we're in business. In a later message you say that the Buddha taught that all things -- EVERYthing -- is characterised by anicca, dukkha and anatta. I don't think that is so. He taught the 3 characteristics in connection with 'conditioned dhammas' only -- the five aggregates, the sense basis, the elements, etc. Unless we appreciate the distinction between 'everything' and 'all conditioned dhammas', we will not appreciate the significance of the Buddha's message. Only conditioned dhammas have the characteristics of annica, dukkha and anatta, and are capable of being the object of insight. > To summarize, clinging to any concept as absolute, ultimate, or > unchanging > is one of the very types of wrong view the abhidhammikas were seeking to > uproot. I'll end by saying that none of the above, nor any of the > suttas, > commentaries or books are capable of ending suffering. Now you tell me, > what > is? Insight inot the true nature of conditioned dhammas is capable of ending suffering. This can only be learnt about initially from the teachings. Jon 34556 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Mon Jul 12, 2004 9:39am Subject: [dsg] Re: Abhidhamma Hi Howard and all, Howard, thank you for sharing your thoughts. I quoted passages on what Abhidhamma is about and what metaphysics and ontology are about. Let me quote the passage from Samyutta Nikaya LVI.31 Simsapa Sutta The Simsapa Leaves http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn56-031.html regarding what the Buddha have taught: "And what have I taught? 'This is stress... This is the origination of stress... This is the cessation of stress... This is the path of practice leading to the cessation of stress': This is what I have taught. And why have I taught these things? Because they are connected with the goal, relate to the rudiments of the holy life, and lead to disenchantment, to dispassion, to cessation, to calm, to direct knowledge, to self-awakening, to Unbinding. This is why I have taught them. Metta, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Victor (and Ken) - > > In a message dated 7/11/04 10:45:13 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > yu_zhonghao@y... writes: > > > > > Hi Ken H, > > > > Thank you for the message. So I believe you have also read the > > messages #34476 and #34477 > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/34476 > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/34477 > > > > on what metaphysics and/or ontology are about. > > > > Metta, > > Victor > ============================ > I presume that your point is that metaphysics and ontology involve > questions which, according to the Buddha, are not useful in that don't conduce to > liberation, and should thus be avoided. In part of one article you quote the > following: "it [metaphysics] can be identified as the study of any of the most > fundamental concepts and beliefs about the basic nature of reality, on which > many other concepts and beliefs rest -- concepts such as being, existence, > universal, property, relation, causation, space, time, event, and many others." > It does occur to me, though, that it is a matter of degree and of > specific content as to what "metaphysics" the Buddha rules out as not useful. Are > not the tilakkhana in the category of "basic nature of reality", and do they > not involve "property"? Does not paticcasamuppada involve both "relation" and > "causation"? And does not anicca involve all of "being", "existence", "time", > and "event"? I agree that the Buddha trains one to *look and see directly* > observing that the nature of things is as he taught rather than to memorize and > contemplate loads of conceptual details, and that the purpose of the Dhamma is > not intellectual gratification but liberation. But might not it be an > overstatement to say that no metaphysics whatsoever (whether phenomenalist or > existentialist or whatever) is involved with the Dhamma? > > With metta, > Howard 34557 From: Date: Mon Jul 12, 2004 7:43am Subject: Re: [dsg] On the topic of Sensation, Pleasure and Pain Hi, Jon - In a message dated 7/12/04 11:53:42 AM Eastern Daylight Time, jonoabb@y... writes: > Hi, Howard > > --- upasaka@a... wrote: >Hi, Jon - > ... > >=========================== > > Again, there may indeed be no advantage at all even if the theory > >that > >non-neutral vedana issues forth only from contact with bodily sensation, > >but > >I still tend to think there *is* an advantage. When there is heightened > >attention directed towards bodily sensation, given that such sensation > >is the source > >of non-neutral vedana and that attention is "focussed" at that very > >point, > >vedanupassana would tend to arise as well. Moreover, inasmuch, according > >to the > >same theory, as mindstate frequently produces bodily sensation, > >attention to > >bodily sensation makes it easier to pick up on the closely preceding and > >causative mindstate. Thus it would seem that should the theory be true, > >a big "if" > >of course, then mindfulness of bodily sensation may also tend towards > >mindfulness of the second and third foundations of mindfulness, and when > >these three > >reach their pinnacle, then the fourth foundation of mindfulness > >(involving > >direct awareness of such things as the tilakkhana, the four noble truhs, > >and > >dependent origination) would come into play... > > I feel there is a danger in such speculation (as I think you agree this > is) > --------------------------------------- Howard: Yes, agreed. ---------------------------------------- , in that it tends to lead us away from awareness of the presently> > arising dhamma. The reason I say this is that if we tend to the idea that > awareness of one particular kind of dhamma or another is particularly > advantageous, then there is likely to be the tendency to achieve awareness > of that particular dhamma to the exclusion of other dhammas. > ------------------------------------------- Howard: I get your point. The thing is, though, that when we don't attempt to restrict the range of our attention somewhat, when we don't limit our focus, our untrained mindulness doesn't seem to do all that well. So, using a single foundation of mindfulness as "central" may be of some help. That is my personal experience. ----------------------------------------- > > I find no support in the texts for making this kind of directed effort. > Suttas such as the Satipatthana Sutta discuss the importance of awareness > of all dhammas, without distinction. > -------------------------------------- Howard: I believe that this sutta allows for several alternate interpretations. I do agree that it does not emphasize one foundation over another, but it can be read as calling for conscious direction of attention. For example, the following suggests such direction to me (though I know it does not to you): << And how does a monk remain focused on the body in & of itself? [1] "There is the case where a monk -- having gone to the wilderness, to the shade of a tree, or to an empty building -- sits down folding his legs crosswise, holding his body erect and setting mindfulness to the fore [lit: the front of the chest]. Always mindful, he breathes in; mindful he breathes out. "Breathing in long, he discerns that he is breathing in long; or breathing out long, he discerns that he is breathing out long. Or breathing in short, he discerns that he is breathing in short; or breathing out short, he discerns that he is breathing out short. He trains himself to breathe in sensitive to the entire body and to breathe out sensitive to the entire body. He trains himself to breathe in calming bodily fabrication and to breathe out calming bodily fabrication. Just as a skilled turner or his apprentice, when making a long turn, discerns that he is making a long turn, or when making a short turn discerns that he is making a short turn; in the same way the monk, when breathing in long, discerns that he is breathing in long; or breathing out short, he discerns that he is breathing out short... He trains himself to breathe in calming bodily fabrication, and to breathe out calming bodily fabrication. >> ----------------------------------------------- > > >... Again, this is all > >hypothesizing, Jon, > >and I agree that there is nowhere in any sutta that I have read any of > >this > >addressed. All that I have noticed is the close relatioj in the suttas > >between > >sensation and vedana, and the great emphasis placed on mindfulness of > >the body, which is suggestive, but nothing more. > > I agree that mindfulness of the body is praised by the Buddha, but it is > not alone in that regard. > > (I'm puzzled by your reference here to 'the close relation in the suttas > between [bodily?] sensation and vedana'; grateful if you could elaborate > on this. Thanks.) > --------------------------------------------- Howard: I don't have a ready reference, Jon. Sorry. That is my impression. However, it may be influenced by the fact that 'vedana' is sometimes translated as 'sensation', and it may also be influenced by Goenka's conflating of physical sensations with feelings. --------------------------------------------- > > Jon ====================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 34558 From: Date: Mon Jul 12, 2004 7:49am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Abhidhamma Hi, Victor - In a message dated 7/12/04 12:42:37 PM Eastern Daylight Time, yu_zhonghao@y... writes: > Hi Howard and all, > > Howard, thank you for sharing your thoughts. > > I quoted passages on what Abhidhamma is about and what metaphysics > and ontology are about. > > Let me quote the passage from > Samyutta Nikaya LVI.31 > Simsapa Sutta > The Simsapa Leaves > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn56-031.html > regarding what the Buddha have taught: > > > "And what have I taught? 'This is stress... This is the origination > of stress... This is the cessation of stress... This is the path of > practice leading to the cessation of stress': This is what I have > taught. And why have I taught these things? Because they are > connected with the goal, relate to the rudiments of the holy life, > and lead to disenchantment, to dispassion, to cessation, to calm, to > direct knowledge, to self-awakening, to Unbinding. This is why I > have taught them. > > > Metta, > Victor ========================== It is my opinion as well that some of what is to be found in Abhidhamma lies among the leaves not held in the Buddha's hand. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 34559 From: icaro franca Date: Mon Jul 12, 2004 0:30pm Subject: Re: [dsg] On the topic of Sensation, Pleasure and Pain Hi Jon! > (I'm puzzled by your reference here to 'the close > relation in the suttas > between [bodily?] sensation and vedana'; grateful if > you could elaborate > on this. Thanks.) ------------------------------------------------------ Taking hand of the own Dependent Origination chain, we see that Nama-Rupa/ Upatti-Bhava compound gives birth to ayatana: six bases (five grounded on body organs and the last on mind) that have five causes: avijja kamma-bhava samskharas tanha upadana bhava So, the six bases, through phassa or contact, get a close relation to vedana, despite the fact that phassa has other causes. In other words, while ayatana has a crooked chain of causes, phassa has a quite linear way to get it, which includes ayatana on the road. corrections are welcome! mettaya, ícaro ===== 34560 From: Date: Mon Jul 12, 2004 10:04am Subject: Re: [dsg] On the topic of Sensation, Pleasure and Pain Hi again, Jon - Nyanaponika Thera reports the following information at the ATI address http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/wheels/wheel303.html#place: "The feeling that arises from contact with visual forms, sounds, odors, and tastes is always a neutral feeling. Pleasant or unpleasant feelings do not always follow in relation to these four sense perceptions; but when they follow, they are then an additional stage of the perceptual process, subsequent to the neutral feeling which is the first response. But bodily impressions (touch, pressure, etc.) can cause either pleasant or unpleasant feelings. Mental impressions can cause gladness, sadness or neutral (indifferent) feeling." This presumably is in line with Abhidhamma, and it shows that my theory is not too far off base. It states that non-neutral vedana arises only from body-door contact and mind-door contact. Actually, I suspect, though I have no Suttic or Abhidhammic evidence for it, that the vedana due to mind-door contact is indirect, being mediated by body-door contact. For example, when we remember something or imagine something or dream something that makes us happy or sad, it seems to me that the thought first generates bodily sensations that are felt as pleasant or unpleasant, and these, in turn, produce gladness or sadness, or are so interpreted. Grief is felt (by the mind) in the body. Joy is felt (by the mind) in the body. Jon, I readily admit, however, the possibility of my being wrong in this idea of body-door contact (bodily sensation) mediating between mind-door contact and resulting non-neutral feeling. That mediation is the way matters seem to me to be, but perhaps the facts are that mind-door contact directly yields a non-neutral feeling in the form of "happy" or "sad", and that feeling leads to a rapid series of mental constructs (such as moments of craving and a stream of thoughts) that produce *subsequent* pleasant or unpleasant bodily sensations - so that the bodily sensations that seem to precede the feelings of gladness or sadness actually follow these feelings. In any case, mind door feelings aside, pleasant and unpleasant feelings directly arise only due to experience of bodily sensations, not to visual, auditory, olfactory, or gustatory contacts. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 34561 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Mon Jul 12, 2004 2:55pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Need clarification on a few subjects Hi Jon and all, As I see it, the Buddha's quest to nibbana involved trial and error. He first practiced in the doctrine & discipline of Alara Kalama. However, after successfully mastering Alara Kalama's doctrine & discipline, the Bodhisatta realized: But the thought occurred to me, 'This Dhamma leads not to disenchantment, to dispassion, to cessation, to stilling, to direct knowledge, to Awakening, nor to Unbinding (nibbana), but only to reappearance in the dimension of nothingness.' So, dissatisfied with that Dhamma, the Bodhisatta left. He then went to Uddaka Ramaputta and practiced in Uddaka Ramaputta's doctrine & discipline. Again, after successfully mastering Uddaka Ramaputta's doctrine & discipline, the Bodhisatta had the same realization as above. So, again, dissatisfied with that Dhamma, he left. The Bodhisatta then practiced extreme austerities in the forest, and that practice did not lead to Awakening either. In short, in his quest to the Awakening, the Bodhisatta tried different paths that did not work before he found the way to the Awakening. I see that as trial and error. The path of practice leading to the cessation of dukkha has been made known by the Buddha so one does not have to go through all the routes that the Buddha had tried. Nevertheless, even this path itself is to be put into practice to see if it works. Furthermore, within the scope of the path, the practice itself still involves trial and error. Take right speech for example. One might engage in wrong speech in a particular occasion and notice that unskillful qualities arise and skillful qualities decrease. He or she learns from that experience and makes an effort to maintain right speech when the same occasion arises. He or she might try couple times to know what to say and how to say it. The fact is, one faces different problems in the course of his or her practice, for example, drowsiness.[1] Trial and error is a method to find the solution. And through trial and error, one gains the experiential knowledge on what works and what does not work. Metta, Victor [1] Regarding the problem of drowsiness, here is a link to the discourse in which the Buddha taught the solution to Moggallana. Anguttara Nikaya VII.58 Capala Sutta Nodding http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an07-058.html --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Hi, Victor > > --- yu_zhonghao wrote: > > Hi Jon and all, > ... > > > Understanding at the experiential level (patipatti, 'practice') > > must be > > > preceded by correct understanding at the intellectual level > > (pariyatti). > > > I would not see it as a trial and error kind of thing, > > as 'exploration' > > > seems to imply. > > > > > > This is how I see it: > > Knowing how to ride a bicycle is a kind of experiential knowledge > > that is to be acquired through actually sitting on a bike trying. > > And trial and error is part of the process of learning and mastering > > the skill of riding a bicycle. Learning and progress involve trial > > and error; i.e., trying different approaches to see if it works, > > until one masters the skill. Another example is learning math. One > > reads the textbook and listens to the teacher, and that is part of > > learning process. However, a deep and thorough understanding/ > > mastery of the subject matter or a skill comes from actually doing > > it, i.e., by solving problems. That is one's experiential knowledge > > about math. > > I have no argument with your description of the learning process, but I > question its relevance to the present context. The Buddha never suggested > that the development of the path was a matter of trial and error. It is > significant that in the case of mindfulness of breathing, for example, the > text makes clear that the person being described is a person who is > already well skilled in that practice and is able to 'set mindfulness to > the fore'. Only of such a person can it be said that 'mindful he breathes > in' etc. > > As far as I'm aware, there is no instance in the texts of the Buddha > recommending a 'practice' in the 'trial and error' sense of any kind. > > Jon 34562 From: Andrew Date: Mon Jul 12, 2004 3:05pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Abhidhamma --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Herman Hofman" wrote: [snip] > The following may be the quirkiest thing you've ever heard, but I > believe there is an enormous difference between hearing the Dhamma, and > reading a book. Unless what is read is heard, I just do not think it is > possible to hear the Dhamma when reading a book. [snip] > I believe the discrediting of the Dhamma started not long after the > Buddha's death, and it is intertwined with the development of that black > art known as writing. Reading/writing is the foundation for a profound > change in human consciousness. Literacy is a compounding of > conceptualization that goes way beyond speech. I think it is nigh on > impossible for a literate mind that feeds itself more literacy to see > clearly and directly the simple truths that the Buddha spoke. The > written dhamma produces no stream enterers. The mind that reads is just > too far removed from reality. (A little test - look at this post on your > screen and see if it is possible to *not* see meanings in the black and > white shapes - rest assured , there are none, but you see them anyway, > and you can't do a thing about it!!!) Herman You're messing with my mind, I just know it! (-: (-: Not long ago, I had to voraciously defend the integrity of oral traditions against your poisonous pen. And now look! I have to pick up my sword and shield and defend WRITTEN traditions as well! I better go off and have some more Weetbix first ... I'll also give some serious thought to the content of your post. You never know ... Keep smiling! Andrew PS speaking of written traditions, I'm glad to hear that Sarah and Jon have escaped the clutches of Moriarty (?Mara) at those falls in the mountains. 34563 From: Andrew Date: Mon Jul 12, 2004 3:27pm Subject: Arupa consciousness Hello everyone This thought occurred to me last night when pondering on anatta and moving enough cats aside so that I could actually get into bed (it's winter here). (-: The sense of self that I experience is heavily bound up with "my" rupa. In the continuity (santana), I observe such paramattha dhammas as lobha arise followed often by verbal and bodily (ie rupa-based) action. Lobha arises in the arupa sphere too. There, it can only manifest as mental activity. Isn't that advantageous ie that it cannot continue to verbal and bodily kamma-forming action? I read an earlier post of Nina's indicating that the arupa sphere was disadvantageous because there is no possibility of wisdom distinguishing nama from rupa (as rupa is not present). Is the delusion of self weaker in the arupa sphere? Any thoughts welcome. Best wishes Andrew 34564 From: kenhowardau Date: Mon Jul 12, 2004 4:42pm Subject: Entity / was: some caution and non-advice --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Ken - > We're both right on this. Actually, one common meaning is, > indeed, "living being", but rather much in the sense of a truly > self-existent person or individual (a concept which we Buddhists > need deal gingerly with ;-), and the root source of the word is the > Latin "ens" referring to existence. Most > generally the word means a separate, self-existent, > independent "thing" Hi Howard, Thanks for the clarification. Now, which definition of entity belongs in the definition of anatta? Does anatta mean that dhammas are devoid of a living being or that they are devoid of a self- existent, independent thing? I can see how the former would apply, although of course, not having directly experienced a dhamma as anatta, I can only imagine what that experience would be like. One simile that comes to mind is of an ornithologist peering into a birds' nest, only to find it empty -- uninhabited. Another simile is of a person who inadvertently comes across a rotting corpse and is struck by the realisation; "There is no human being in this!" So it is the fact of being uninhabited that is the key, I think. That would mean that the second definition of is less applicable to anatta -- it is not especially significant that a dhamma might be devoid of an independent, inanimate thing. Would you agree? Ken H 34565 From: nori Date: Mon Jul 12, 2004 4:43pm Subject: Basic thoughts on Sati (awareness), Samahdi (concentration) and Anapana hi all, This is the way I understand it. I will paste underneath the definition of Sati from the Pali Text Society Pali-English dictionary: Sati (p. 672) (f.) [Vedic smrti: see etym. under sarati2] memory, recognition, consciousness, D I.180; II.292; Miln 77--80; When Sati is present it has this charecteristic: whatever it experiences at that moment is retained into memory; it becomes experience. When one does not have Sati, things can be recieved by the senses and its associated conciousnesses (i.e. body, eye, ear, ... mind) however it is not 'experienced'; it is not retained into memory. Now this Sati/awareness can be in different states. Among the many characteristics: it can be dull and scattered ; or it can be sharp and focused (and typically it is divided amongst the sense doors-conciousnesses (i.e. body/touch, eye/vision, ear/sound, nose/smell, ... and mind)). Examples of scattered and focused Sati/mindfulness/Awareness: Lets say we are sitting in a room and there are lots of people talking. If we do not focus our awareness we would hear just an ocean of sounds. However, our awareness is directable, and concentrate-able so we can, by our will and intention, focus on a particular person, and a particular voice, and now when we do this, we can 'discern' that one voice, his words and then interpret what he is saying. Another example: You stop while driving for directions and while someone is telling you directions, somebody else in the car is talking to you. Now your awareness is split up between both people talking to you. It is more likely that since your awareness was divided, that you will not retain those directions; where as if you had focused your complete attention/awareness on the person giving you the directions, you would have had a more intense/distinct experience of it, and you would retain the experience better in this case. And so we can determine from the above examples that: The stronger your concentration/samahdi the stronger is your discernment of the experience, the more intense (your experience), and the stronger it is retained into your memory. That is - the more you 'know' of an experience. Now what Buddha suggests is that you develop your calm, persistence, and concentration of your awareness of ones mind like one develops muscles in weight training. From my experience I have witnessed that one can develop his ability of concentration beyond what is 'normally' capable for a typical mind. When Samahdi and a calm mind has been developed, one has strong discernment and very intense experiences, even for things that are subtle, and normally not detected. This assists one in investigating reality, and ones own true nature through keen observation and experience. Instead of taking in the experience of life, as one typically does, as a whole in its entirety of experience, one can methodically focus in onto particular objects of investigation (such as those suggested in the Maha Satipatthana Sutta), one at a time, for a more intense experience with a higher level of discernment. The method to develop concentration is many fold and depends on progress on the eightfold path, but another aspect of developing samahdi is to perform a specific meditation to develop samahdi, such as Anapana (breath meditation). I will describe how to perform Anapana meditation as taught by SN Goenka in a future post. with metta, nori --- Anguttara Nikaya XI.1 Kimattha Sutta What is the Purpose? I have heard that on one occasion the Blessed One was staying near Savatthi in Jeta's Grove, Anathapindika's monastery. Then Ven. Ananda went to the Blessed One and on arrival, having bowed down to him, sat to one side. As he was sitting there he said to the Blessed One: "What is the purpose of skillful virtues? What is their reward?" "Skillful virtues have freedom from remorse as their purpose, Ananda, and freedom from remorse as their reward." "And what is the purpose of freedom from remorse? What is its reward?" "Freedom from remorse has joy as its purpose, joy as its reward." "And what is the purpose of joy? What is its reward?" "Joy has rapture as its purpose, rapture as its reward." "And what is the purpose of rapture? What is its reward?" "Rapture has serenity as its purpose, serenity as its reward." "And what is the purpose of serenity? What is its reward?" "Serenity has pleasure as its purpose, pleasure as its reward." "And what is the purpose of pleasure? What is its reward?" "Pleasure has concentration as its purpose, concentration as its reward." "And what is the purpose of concentration? What is its reward?" "Concentration has knowledge & vision of things as they actually are as its purpose, knowledge & vision of things as they actually are as its reward." ... 34566 From: Herman Hofman Date: Mon Jul 12, 2004 4:58pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Abhidhamma Hi Andrew, The mind is the most voracious and insatiable organ, yet it requires no sustenance at all. There's absolutely no need to feed it. No wonder it gets bloated and obese :-) If, while eating your Weetbix, you can refrain from reading the notes on the packet, you're doing allright :-) Have a great day Herman ========================= You're messing with my mind, I just know it! (-: (-: Not long ago, I had to voraciously defend the integrity of oral traditions against your poisonous pen. And now look! I have to pick up my sword and shield and defend WRITTEN traditions as well! I better go off and have some more Weetbix first ... I'll also give some serious thought to the content of your post. You never know ... Keep smiling! Andrew PS speaking of written traditions, I'm glad to hear that Sarah and Jon have escaped the clutches of Moriarty (?Mara) at those falls in the mountains. 34567 From: Date: Mon Jul 12, 2004 1:38pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Basic thoughts on Sati (awareness), Samahdi (concentration) and Ana... In a message dated 7/12/04 4:45:54 PM Pacific Daylight Time, nori_public@a... writes: When Sati is present it has this charecteristic: whatever it experiences at that moment is retained into memory; it becomes experience. When one does not have Sati, things can be recieved by the senses and its associated conciousnesses (i.e. body, eye, ear, ... mind) however it is not 'experienced'; it is not retained into memory ==== all, I thought I would pass on that sati also means unchaste woman. jack 34568 From: Date: Mon Jul 12, 2004 3:32pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Entity / was: some caution and non-advice Hi, Ken - In a message dated 7/12/04 8:21:37 PM Eastern Daylight Time, kenhowardau@y... writes: > > Hi Howard, > > Thanks for the clarification. Now, which definition of entity > belongs in the definition of anatta? Does anatta mean that dhammas > are devoid of a living being or that they are devoid of a self- > existent, independent thing? > > I can see how the former would apply, although of course, not having > directly experienced a dhamma as anatta, I can only imagine what > that experience would be like. One simile that comes to mind is of > an ornithologist peering into a birds' nest, only to find it empty -- > uninhabited. > > Another simile is of a person who inadvertently comes across a > rotting corpse and is struck by the realisation; "There is no human > being in this!" > > So it is the fact of being uninhabited that is the key, I think. > That would mean that the second definition of is less applicable to > anatta -- it is not especially significant that a dhamma might be > devoid of an independent, inanimate thing. Would you agree? > > > Ken H > ============================ Nyanatiloka's dictionary gives the following: > The anattá doctrine teaches that neither within the bodily and mental > phenomena of existence, nor outside of them, can be found anything that in the > ultimate sense could be regarded as a self-existing real ego-entity, soul or any > other abiding substance. I think that's a fair formulation. When it is said that all dhammas are anattá, I take that to mean two things: Every phenomenon, conditioned or not, is a) impersonal i.e., neither an ego-entity nor belonging to an ego-entity, and b) without substantial core. In the case of conditioned phenomena, part b) is due to the phenomena not being self-existent, but arising due to the confluence of other (similarly empty) conditions. In the case of nibbana, its corelessness is due to its being a mere absence - in fact, the ultimate emptiness. The term 'entity' thus properly applies to no dhamma at all, as I pointed out in my previous post. There actually are no entities. Belief in entities is a form of atta-view, in my opinion. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 34569 From: Date: Mon Jul 12, 2004 3:37pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Basic thoughts on Sati (awareness), Samahdi (concentration) and Ana... Hi, Jack - In a message dated 7/12/04 9:32:46 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Jackhat1@a... writes: > I thought I would pass on that sati also means unchaste woman. > ======================= Hah! I now see what *your* mind runs to! (It happens that it is 'asati' that means "unchaste woman"! The word 'sati' means "chaste woman". Perhaps you thought the meaning of 'sati' was "chased woman"? ;-)) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 34570 From: gazita2002 Date: Mon Jul 12, 2004 8:08pm Subject: Tiika Vis. XIV, 85 - question Dear Nina, My question regards this [sort of...] --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > Tiika Vis. XIV, 85, Pali > >> Tattha ~naa.nasampayuttaani cattaari yadaa tihetukapa.tisandhi.m uppaadenti, > In this case, when the four types of kusala citta that are accompanied by > wisdom produce rebirth with three roots, >> ***** > Nina. When patisandhi citta arises with pleasant feeling, and the bhavanga cittas of that life also have pleasant feeling arising, how does it - if it does at all - manifest? Could we expect that person to be an overall happy sort of person, or would it not manifest as anything? Patience, courage and good cheer, Azita. 34571 From: gazita2002 Date: Mon Jul 12, 2004 8:44pm Subject: Re: Arupa consciousness Hello Andrew, I'll need a few of those cats when I arrive in August!!! --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Andrew" wrote: > Hello everyone > > This thought occurred to me last night when pondering on anatta and > moving enough cats aside so that I could actually get into bed (it's > winter here). (-: > > The sense of self that I experience is heavily bound up with "my" > rupa. In the continuity (santana), I observe such paramattha dhammas > as lobha arise followed often by verbal and bodily (ie rupa-based) > action. > > Lobha arises in the arupa sphere too. There, it can only manifest as > mental activity. Isn't that advantageous ie that it cannot continue > to verbal and bodily kamma-forming action? I can see your point here, but the latent tendancies are still there [somewhere] and no matter how long a being is in that arupabrahma sphere, there will be an end to that existence and rebirth somewhere else, and then the conditions may be there again to go on 'developing' lobha. > I read an earlier post of Nina's indicating that the arupa sphere was > disadvantageous because there is no possibility of wisdom > distinguishing nama from rupa (as rupa is not present). > > Is the delusion of self weaker in the arupa sphere? Can't remember (-: ... but somehow I would think not, bec there is still nama and idea of self is nama, but then there is no rupa to 'add' to that idea??!! Interesting. > Any thoughts welcome. > > Best wishes > Andrew Patience, courage and good cheer, Azita. 34572 From: Robert Epstein Date: Mon Jul 12, 2004 9:09pm Subject: [Hello, Herman! --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Herman Hofman" wrote: > Thanks for your post, Philip, Herman! how are you? I haven't been able to be here as much as I'd like, but very glad to see you coming around! How are you these days? I hope you are doing well... Best, Robert 34573 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Jul 12, 2004 9:24pm Subject: Visuddhimagga, 87 Hi Larry, Could you please also post Vis. XIV, 87, it is fitting for me to take this together with 86. I make one short intro to the two of them. No 89 is short in the Vis and long in the Tiika. Nina. 34574 From: Date: Mon Jul 12, 2004 11:26pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Basic thoughts on Sati (awareness), Samahdi (concentration) and Ana... In a message dated 7/12/04 7:40:49 PM Pacific Daylight Time, upasaka@a... writes: Hah! I now see what *your* mind runs to! (It happens that it is 'asati' that means "unchaste woman"! The word 'sati' means "chaste woman". Perhaps you thought the meaning of 'sati' was "chased woman"? ;-)) === Howard, your comments gave me a good laugh to start off the day. jack 34575 From: Gabriel Nunes Laera Date: Tue Jul 13, 2004 6:12am Subject: Questions... Dearest Friends, Could you help me with a couple of questions? First) What would be the pali names and definitions of : 1) "I", 2) "conscience", 3)"soul", 4)"spirit", 5)"mind", I hope you can help me with that. Second) What are the perceptions fields that when perceived and taken as permanent and as one is generally called a self, embodied in a mind, speech and body? Third) When meditating I generally have the following experiences, each time in a different intensity and with a different impact: 1) The vision becomes black, and sometimes it alternates from on eye perception to another 2) The sound of "silence" becomes stronger 3) The perception of the hands become stronger and it seems I am getting bigger, a quite weird feeling 4)When I keep the meditation session longer than 15 min. I start feeling like if I was floating 5) I try to keep observing breath and when I do it all those happenings become stronger. 6) I keep my mind voices saying bud...(breathing in)dho...(breathing out) Well, I would like to know if these are negative signals, if so, could you recommend me a different meditation technique or some preliminar exercise? Thank you very much for the attention, Metta, Gabriel Laera 34576 From: Bill Saint-Onge Date: Tue Jul 13, 2004 8:53am Subject: Re: [dsg] Questions... Hello Gabriel... Ignore all those things :) Keep meditating. When mindfullness is sufficiently strong, drop "Buddho" and keep to the breath only. When Buddho is dropped, switch instead to noting the differential length of the breaths. Good luck, Bill Gabriel Nunes Laera wrote: Dearest Friends, Could you help me with a couple of questions? First) What would be the pali names and definitions of : 1) "I", 2) "conscience", 3)"soul", 4)"spirit", 5)"mind", I hope you can help me with that. Second) What are the perceptions fields that when perceived and taken as permanent and as one is generally called a self, embodied in a mind, speech and body? Third) When meditating I generally have the following experiences, each time in a different intensity and with a different impact: 1) The vision becomes black, and sometimes it alternates from on eye perception to another 2) The sound of "silence" becomes stronger 3) The perception of the hands become stronger and it seems I am getting bigger, a quite weird feeling 4)When I keep the meditation session longer than 15 min. I start feeling like if I was floating 5) I try to keep observing breath and when I do it all those happenings become stronger. 6) I keep my mind voices saying bud...(breathing in)dho...(breathing out) Well, I would like to know if these are negative signals, if so, could you recommend me a different meditation technique or some preliminar exercise? Thank you very much for the attention, Metta, Gabriel Laera 34577 From: Gabriel Nunes Laera Date: Tue Jul 13, 2004 9:56am Subject: Re: Questions... Dearest Bill, Thank you very much for your answer. Metta, Gabriel Laera 34578 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Jul 13, 2004 10:14am Subject: Re: [dsg] Tiika Vis. XIV, 85 - feeling with rebirth. Dear Azita, op 13-07-2004 05:08 schreef gazita2002 op gazita2002@y...: > > When patisandhi citta arises with pleasant feeling, and the > bhavanga cittas of that life also have pleasant feeling arising, how > does it - if it does at all - manifest? Could we expect that person > to be an overall happy sort of person, or would it not manifest as > anything? N: I read in the Co to the Abhidhammattha Sangaha (Topics of Abhidhamma, p. 14), where it refers to happiness accompanying lobha-muulacitta: The opposite is indicated for the causes of equanimity. We have to discern though the jaatis of kusala, akusala, vipaaka and kiriya. We cannot speculate, but from this text it appears that there is some influence, thus, the feeling accompanying bhavangacittas in our life is one of the conditions. We have to be careful in making general statements. Bhavanga cittas can be object of insight, but the question is, who can be aware of them. It is not easy. Nina. 34579 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Jul 13, 2004 10:14am Subject: Re: [dsg] Arupa consciousness Hi Andrew, op 13-07-2004 00:27 schreef Andrew op athel60@t... > > Lobha arises in the arupa sphere too. There, it can only manifest as > mental activity. Isn't that advantageous ie that it cannot continue > to verbal and bodily kamma-forming action? N: In the arupa brahma planes there is still clinging, one can cling to the calm of jhana or to that plane. But as Azita says, when one falls from that existence, one may be reborn in a sense plane and have lobha on and on for the sense objects. A: I read an earlier post of Nina's indicating that the arupa sphere was > disadvantageous because there is no possibility of wisdom > distinguishing nama from rupa (as rupa is not present). N: I would not call arupajhana disadvantageous, it is kusala of a high degree. But it is only a temporal subduing of defilements. When someone as a result of arupajhana is reborn in an arupabrahma plane he cannot become a sotapanna there. The person who develops insight has to know the difference between nama and rupa, realize their conditions, see their arising and falling away and further develop all stages of insight. Also, in that plane there is no hearing, one cannot have Dhamma discussions there. A: Is the delusion of self weaker in the arupa sphere? N: In those planes there are also ariyans who have developed insight already and eradicated the delusion of self. Whether the delusion of self is eradicated or not does not depend on the development of jhana nor on the plane where one lives that is the result of jhana, but only on the development of insight. But now we are here in the human plane and we are able to hear the Dhamma. There are sense impressions and akusala cittas arising on account of the sense objects. When they have arisen already it shows that there are conditions for them, but we can develop understanding of them as not mine. I just heard on MP3 that A. Sujin asks Kom to speak about the sutta on the blind turtle in the sea that comes to the surface once in a hundred years, and that has to poke its neck through a hole in a yoke, but more difficult it is to be born a human. I discussed this here with Kom long ago. This sutta is a reminder, it is not spoken to make us afraid. We can be reminded that human birth is precious and that we should not waste opportunities to listen to the Dhamma. A. Sujin speaks about the Middle Way, saying that this is not merely a name. It means that in the development of satipatthana we do not cling to specific objects we select nor do we reject objects that are unwellcome. We do not worry about past objects that have already gone, nor do we think of future objects. Understanding of any reality appearing now should be developed so that it can be known as just dhamma, nama or rupa, nothing else. Nina. 34580 From: Bill Saint-Onge Date: Tue Jul 13, 2004 11:51am Subject: Re: [dsg] Questions... Hello Again Gabrielle.. My 'free advice" re: to 'ignore all those things' was only in relation to your third question, not the first two. Those first two are good questions, too--I just didn't address them... :) Bill Bill Saint-Onge wrote: Hello Gabriel... Ignore all those things :) Keep meditating. When mindfullness is sufficiently strong, drop "Buddho" and keep to the breath only. When Buddho is dropped, switch instead to noting the differential length of the breaths. Good luck, Bill Gabriel Nunes Laera wrote: Dearest Friends, Could you help me with a couple of questions? First) What would be the pali names and definitions of : 1) "I", 2) "conscience", 3)"soul", 4)"spirit", 5)"mind", I hope you can help me with that. Second) What are the perceptions fields that when perceived and taken as permanent and as one is generally called a self, embodied in a mind, speech and body? Third) When meditating I generally have the following experiences, each time in a different intensity and with a different impact: 1) The vision becomes black, and sometimes it alternates from on eye perception to another 2) The sound of "silence" becomes stronger 3) The perception of the hands become stronger and it seems I am getting bigger, a quite weird feeling 4)When I keep the meditation session longer than 15 min. I start feeling like if I was floating 5) I try to keep observing breath and when I do it all those happenings become stronger. 6) I keep my mind voices saying bud...(breathing in)dho...(breathing out) Well, I would like to know if these are negative signals, if so, could you recommend me a different meditation technique or some preliminar exercise? Thank you very much for the attention, Metta, Gabriel Laera 34581 From: icarofranca Date: Tue Jul 13, 2004 0:32pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Questions... Hi Bill! > Hello Again Gabrielle.. >--------------------------------------------------------------------- Er... How could I say it...? My comrade Gabriel - if there's a good practitioner on lamaism surely is Gabriel - is brazillian and is a man! Not Gabrielle for sure! ( it's the same to say that Toronto has its name because of the indian partner of the masked man!!!) Mettaya, Ícaro 34582 From: christine_forsyth Date: Tue Jul 13, 2004 1:37pm Subject: Re: Questions... Hello Gabriel, Icaro, Bill, all The Buddha analyses the cognitive processes of the four types of individuals - the untaught ordinary person, the disciple in higher training, the arahant, and the Tathaagata - in the Muulapariyaaya Sutta 'The Root of All Things', the first sutta of the Majjhima Nikaya. It is one of the deepest and most difficult suttas inthe Pali Canon. For a fuller treatment of this important and difficult sutta, see Bhikkhu Bodhi, 'Discourse on the Root of Existence.' This work contains, besides a translation of the sutta, a lengthy analytical study of its philosophical significance and copious extracts from the very helful commentarial literature that has accumulated around it. In the four sections the phenomena comprising personality are considered as objects of perception classified into the four categories of the seen, heard, sensed, and cognized. Here, sensed (muta) signifies the data of smell, taste, and touch, cognized (vinnata) the data of introspection, abstract thought, and imagination. The objects of perception are "conceived" when they are cognized in terms of "mine," "i," and "self," or in ways that generate craving, conceit, and views. (Bodhi) You may find this English-Pali dictionary helpful: Have fun looking up your Pali words here: http://www.saigon.com/~anson/ebud/dict-ep/ Pali-English dictionaries: http://www.saigon.com/~anson/ebud/dict-pe/index.htm http://dsal.uchicago.edu/dictionaries/pali/ 'Pali is an inflectional language. Unlike in English, where the role that a noun plays in a sentence will be indicated by additional words (e.g. to, from, in, because of, by etc.), in Pali a noun's role and connection with the rest of the sentence is shown by changing its ending.'(Bhikkhu Dhammanando in a post on DL). metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Gabriel Nunes Laera" wrote: > Dearest Friends, > > Could you help me with a couple of questions? > > First) What would be the pali names and definitions of : > > 1) "I", > 2) "conscience", > 3)"soul", > 4)"spirit", > 5)"mind", > > I hope you can help me with that. > > Second) What are the perceptions fields that when perceived and taken > as > permanent and as one is generally called a self, embodied in a mind, > speech > and body? > > Third) When meditating I generally have the following experiences, > each time > in a different intensity and with a different impact: > > 1) The vision becomes black, and sometimes it alternates from on eye > perception to another > 2) The sound of "silence" becomes stronger > 3) The perception of the hands become stronger and it seems I am > getting > bigger, a quite weird feeling > 4)When I keep the meditation session longer than 15 min. I start > feeling > like if I was floating > 5) I try to keep observing breath and when I do it all those > happenings > become stronger. > 6) I keep my mind voices saying bud...(breathing in)dho... (breathing > out) > > Well, I would like to know if these are negative signals, if so, > could you recommend me a different meditation technique or some > preliminar exercise? > > Thank you very much for the attention, > > Metta, > > Gabriel Laera 34583 From: Date: Tue Jul 13, 2004 3:44pm Subject: Vism.XIV 87 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) Ch. XIV 87. I.C. That of the 'immaterial sphere' is fourfold by association with the four immaterial states; for (14) the first is associated with the jhana of the base consisting of boundless space in the way aforesaid, while (15)-(17) the second, third, and fourth, are [respectively] associated with those of the base consisting of boundless consciousness, and so on. 34584 From: Herman Hofman Date: Tue Jul 13, 2004 4:04pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Questions... Hi Gabriel, I hope the answer below is of some use to you. ================================================= Dearest Friends, Could you help me with a couple of questions? Third) When meditating I generally have the following experiences, each time in a different intensity and with a different impact: 1) The vision becomes black, and sometimes it alternates from on eye perception to another 2) The sound of "silence" becomes stronger 3) The perception of the hands become stronger and it seems I am getting bigger, a quite weird feeling 4)When I keep the meditation session longer than 15 min. I start feeling like if I was floating 5) I try to keep observing breath and when I do it all those happenings become stronger. 6) I keep my mind voices saying bud...(breathing in)dho...(breathing out) Well, I would like to know if these are negative signals, if so, could you recommend me a different meditation technique or some preliminar exercise? =================================================== H > The experiences you describe show that the mind is loosing some of the frames of reference it is so used to building on. What you are describing is much like the feeling when you are seated in a train standing still next to another one, and the other train starts to move, it feels like you are the one that is moving. These are not negative signals. They allow you to see how reality is built up of many interdependent facets to create a whole perception. As long as you don't go looking for particular sensations or experiences, you will be fine. Just be aware of whatever comes and goes. Catch you later Herman 34585 From: Herman Hofman Date: Tue Jul 13, 2004 4:14pm Subject: RE: [dsg] [Hello, Herman! Good to hear from you, Robert!!! For a while I thought you'd dropped off the face of the earth. Nice to see you've returned again. Things are excellent. We have successfully managed to not have any more kids since last time we wrote :-) Seriously, if there was something or someone to be grateful to, we'd be grateful. But seeing as there's not, we're just very content. What's been a-happening I your neck of the woods? All the best Herman -----Original Message----- From: Robert Epstein [mailto:epsteinrob@Y...] Sent: Tuesday, 13 July 2004 2:10 PM To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Subject: [dsg] [Hello, Herman! --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Herman Hofman" wrote: > Thanks for your post, Philip, Herman! how are you? I haven't been able to be here as much as I'd like, but very glad to see you coming around! How are you these days? I hope you are doing well... Best, Robert 34586 From: Andrew Date: Tue Jul 13, 2004 6:37pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Arupa consciousness Dear Nina and Azita Thank you very much for your clarifying thoughts and the wonderful reminder about the turtle simile. I also like this below:- > A. Sujin speaks about the Middle Way, saying that this is not merely a name. > It means that in the development of satipatthana we do not cling to specific > objects we select nor do we reject objects that are unwellcome. We do not > worry about past objects that have already gone, nor do we think of future > objects. Understanding of any reality appearing now should be developed so > that it can be known as just dhamma, nama or rupa, nothing else. > Nina. It is entirely consistent with the anatta doctrine that there be some nama-only planes. As I cling to rupa so much, I find it hard to imagine a "being" without rupa. Which tells me that I haven't yet fully grasped anatta! Thanks again Andrew 34587 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Wed Jul 14, 2004 7:59am Subject: Re: [dsg] what I heard Hi, Nina --- nina van gorkom wrote: > Dear Jon, > I listened to MP 3. A. Sujin asked you in India: do you have possessions > (sombat), and you were somewhat surprised. She then explained; when in > deep > sleep you have no possessions, you do not even have a name. No object is > appearing through the senses, we do not know anything, not even our > name. > Also when seeing now you only experience colour and own not any > possessions, > you do not think of them. Seeing arises only for a moment then it falls > away. We cling the whole day but we do not own anything. Thanks for mentioning this discussion. I found it a very useful reminder at the time, and again now. (I remember the occasion, because I misunderstood the Thai expression when the question was first put to me, and I didn't quite know how to answer!). Likewise, it is sometimes apparent when awaking from a deep sleep that all the issues good and bad that normally occupy us when awake have not been issues for that period; they are just creations of the mind. Very refreshing. Jon PS Today, our last full day in Meiringan, we had our first clear weather. We made the most of it by taking the cable car to the hightest point around here and doing a long walk along to another point across the slopes. We leave here early tomorrow morning (Thursday) but our flight is not until late Thursday night, arriving Hong Kong on Friday evening, about 28 hours after checking out from here. 34588 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Wed Jul 14, 2004 8:12am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Abhidhamma Hi, Herman --- Herman Hofman wrote: > Hi Jon, > > The tax is still not finished, but then tax is never finished :-) > > I think there is a parallel between what I mean with quietness/mental > silence and awareness free from sensuality and discursive and evaluative > thought. As I understand the teachings, awareness is the wholesome quality that equates to right attention, at which time there is no attachment or other unwholesome quality. It is awareness that brings the freedom from sensuality you mention here (hence the focus in our discussions on the development of awareness). > With regards to the abhidhamma, I'd have to read it before I could > really comment on what it teaches. From what I have read in secondary > and tertiary sources, the abhidhamma does not lend itself to easy > reading or understanding. > > To me the suttas teach the end of suffering, through renunciation of > attachment to anything you care to mention. The suttas lend themselves > to understanding. Something understood does not need to be remembered. A > principle understood can be applied. The endless chain of words of the > abhidhamma must be remembered until they are understood. If they are not > understood they cascade around the skull. To the extent these > incomprehensible words become objects of awareness again and again they > are an affliction and prevent any progress towards the end of suffering > whatsoever. I think what you describe here is a subjective reaction and very much a personal opinion. I don't see anything in what you say here that differentiates the abhidhamma from the suttas, in the sense of use of the written/spoken word to convey fundamental truths. I know the abhidhamma doesn't appeal to everyone, but I urge you not to reject it outright! It took me some years to really appreciate its true value. Jon 34589 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Wed Jul 14, 2004 8:22am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: On the topic of Sensation, Pleasure and Pain Hi, Nori --- nori wrote: > Hi Victor, Jon and all, > > I have discovered that it is possible through exertion of ones > will/intention to objectively experience sensations, without > reacting with the pleasure which is normally derived from it. > > For example (and you can try this) when eating food which one finds > pleasing, it is possible through ones own volition to experience > only the sensations which are derived from eating this food (the > texture, temperature, taste, etc.), and not react with the pleasure > which would normally follow ("mmmmm, this tastes good, ahhhhhh"); > one can, by ones own volition/intention/will suspend this reaction > of ?ereceiving?f or 'taking' the pleasure which is derived from it. I think what you describe here is a kind of 'forcing', or suppression of the normal akusala reaction and its replacement by another form of akusala. This of course has nothing to do with the development of insight. Insight (panna/vipassana) has to do with understanding the true nature of conditioned dhammas, for example, understanding nama as nama, rupa as rupa. > From our previous discussion, we have determined that certain 'Forms > cognizable via the eye, ...sounds cognizable via the ear... aromas > cognizable via the nose... flavors cognizable via the tongue... > tactile sensations cognizable via the body' are inherently ?e-- > agreeable, pleasing, > charming?f. > > So then what do think is good practice (as proclaimed by Gotama > Buddha) when we encounter these things: > > Do we: a) Allow the natural reaction of pleasure to follow through > without indulging further or b) exert our will and intention to > objectively experience the senses without reacting ? Neither of these 2 options would be my idea of practice in accordance with the dhamma. It is much more subtle and complex than this. We should not be too eager to see an immediate reduction in 'taking pleasure' or other forms of akusala, as this will distract us from the path of developing insight into the true nature of the presently arising dhamma. My views, anyway ;-)) Jon 34590 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Wed Jul 14, 2004 8:32am Subject: Re: [dsg] On the topic of Sensation, Pleasure and Pain Hi, Howard --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Jon - ... > -------------------------------------- > Howard: > I believe that [the Satipatthana Sutta] allows for several alternate > interpretations. I do agree that it does not emphasize one foundation > over another, but it > can be read as calling for conscious direction of attention. For > example, the > following suggests such direction to me (though I know it does not to > you): << > And how does a monk remain focused on the body in & of itself? [1] > "There is > the case where a monk -- having gone to the wilderness, to the shade of > a tree, > or to an empty building -- sits down folding his legs crosswise, holding > his > body erect and setting mindfulness to the fore [lit: the front of the > chest]. > Always mindful, he breathes in; mindful he breathes out. "Breathing in > long, he > discerns that he is breathing in long; or breathing out long, he > discerns > that he is breathing out long. ¨... I know you don't want to get into a debate on this, but I really don't understand what you see in this passage that suggests a direction by the Buddha to emphasise one 'foundation' over another. > > (I'm puzzled by your reference here to 'the close relation in the > suttas > > between [bodily?] sensation and vedana'; grateful if you could > elaborate > > on this. Thanks.) > > > --------------------------------------------- > Howard: > I don't have a ready reference, Jon. Sorry. That is my > impression. > However, it may be influenced by the fact that 'vedana' is sometimes > translated > as 'sensation', and it may also be influenced by Goenka's conflating of > physical sensations with feelings. > --------------------------------------------- Actually I wasn't expecting a reference but something in your own words explaining the relationship as you saw it. Jon 34591 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Wed Jul 14, 2004 8:45am Subject: Re: [dsg] On the topic of Sensation, Pleasure and Pain Hi again, Howard Howard: Nyanaponika Thera reports the following information at the ATI address http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/wheels/wheel303.html#place: "The feeling that arises from contact with visual forms, sounds, odors, and tastes is always a neutral feeling. Pleasant or unpleasant feelings do not always follow in relation to these four sense perceptions; but when they follow, they are then an additional stage of the perceptual process, subsequent to the neutral feeling which is the first response. But bodily impressions (touch, pressure, etc.) can cause either pleasant or unpleasant feelings. Mental impressions can cause gladness, sadness or neutral (indifferent) feeling." This presumably is in line with Abhidhamma, and it shows that my theory is not too far off base. It states that non-neutral vedana arises only from body-door contact and mind-door contact. Jon: I believe the Abhidhamma explanation, and the one intended by Ven Nyanaponika, is that the vipaka citta that experiences sense-door objects is always accompanied by neutral feeling. This is followed in due course by kusala or akusala cittas that ‘run through’ the object, and the feeling that accompanies these cittas may be pleasant, unpleasant or neutral, depending on the nature and strength of the kusala or akusala. I don't know if this puts the passage in a different light as far as your hypothesis is concerned. Jon 34592 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Wed Jul 14, 2004 8:53am Subject: Re: [dsg] On the topic of Sensation, Pleasure and Pain Hi, Icaro Thanks for coming in here! --- icaro franca wrote: > Taking hand of the own Dependent Origination chain, > we see that Nama-Rupa/ Upatti-Bhava compound gives > birth to ayatana: six bases (five grounded on body > organs and the last on mind) that have five causes: > avijja kamma-bhava > samskharas > tanha > upadana > bhava > So, the six bases, through phassa or contact, get > a close relation to vedana, despite the fact that > phassa has other causes. I'm not too familiar with DO, and as I don't have my texts with me I'll have to take your word for this ;-)). However, in terms of the original comments on this subject, I think the relationships explained in DO are not things to be focussed upon as an aspect of 'practice', but are relationships that become aparent through the development of understanding, gradually and in due time. > In other words, while ayatana has a crooked chain > of causes, phassa has a quite linear way to get it, > which includes ayatana on the road. A graphic description. No doubt Howard, as a kindred mathematical soul, will appreciate this reference ;-)) Jon 34593 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Wed Jul 14, 2004 9:07am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Need clarification on a few subjects Hi, Victor Thanks for your comments here, which as usual are factually correct and supported by good references. However, I don't think there is any suggestion in the texts that the development of the path involves some kind of practice on a trial and error basis. The whole idea seems to run contrary to the very exact description of cause and result given in the teachings. In terms of carrying out a practice, 'error' must mean wrong view, and wrong view is of the nature to prevent one seeing things for what they are (including the wrong view itself). Jon --- yu_zhonghao wrote: > Hi Jon and all, > > As I see it, the Buddha's quest to nibbana involved trial and > error. > > He first practiced in the doctrine & discipline of Alara Kalama. > However, after successfully mastering Alara Kalama's doctrine & > discipline, the Bodhisatta realized: ... > In short, in his quest to the Awakening, the Bodhisatta tried > different paths that did not work before he found the way to the > Awakening. I see that as trial and error. 34594 From: Bill Saint-Onge Date: Wed Jul 14, 2004 9:29am Subject: Re: [dsg] Questions... LOL---sorry about that. With my French background, I should have been more attentive to the e/no e situation, and how that changes gender---it happens all the time with first names in French as well... Many apologies... Bille icarofranca wrote: Hi Bill! > Hello Again Gabrielle.. >--------------------------------------------------------------------- Er... How could I say it...? My comrade Gabriel - if there's a good practitioner on lamaism surely is Gabriel - is brazillian and is a man! Not Gabrielle for sure! ( it's the same to say that Toronto has its name because of the indian partner of the masked man!!!) Mettaya, Ícaro 34595 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Wed Jul 14, 2004 9:54am Subject: Re: On the topic of Sensation, Pleasure and Pain Hi Nori and all, If it's through exertion of one's will/intention to objectively experiencing sensation such that he or she becomes dispassionate and disenchanted with that sensation, then I think that is a good practice. By natural reaction of pleasure I suppose it means passion and greed to sensual pleasures. I think it is not a good practice to let the passion and greed to sensual pleasure to follow through. I think that letting it to follow through IS indulging. Metta, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "nori" wrote: > Hi Victor, Jon and all, > > I have discovered that it is possible through exertion of ones > will/intention to objectively experience sensations, without > reacting with the pleasure which is normally derived from it. > > For example (and you can try this) when eating food which one finds > pleasing, it is possible through ones own volition to experience > only the sensations which are derived from eating this food (the > texture, temperature, taste, etc.), and not react with the pleasure > which would normally follow ("mmmmm, this tastes good, ahhhhhh"); > one can, by ones own volition/intention/will suspend this reaction > of ?ereceiving?f or 'taking' the pleasure which is derived from it. > > From our previous discussion, we have determined that certain 'Forms > cognizable via the eye, ...sounds cognizable via the ear... aromas > cognizable via the nose... flavors cognizable via the tongue... > tactile sensations cognizable via the body' are inherently ?e-- > agreeable, pleasing, > charming?f. > > So then what do think is good practice (as proclaimed by Gotama > Buddha) when we encounter these things: > > Do we: a) Allow the natural reaction of pleasure to follow through > without indulging further or b) exert our will and intention to > objectively experience the senses without reacting ? > > metta, > nori 34596 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Jul 14, 2004 10:11am Subject: Re: [dsg] Arupa consciousness Dear Andrew, Reflecting on rupajhana and arupajhana, I find that we can see how perfectly kamma conditions vipaka. The person who develops jhana must be very sincere, it must be his true accumulation to be free from sense impressions, his life style should be like a monk's. One should not see jhana as a shortcut, an easy way to develop insight, nor as a kind of escape from daily life. As you say, We humans cling to rupa, and it fits our kamma to be here in the human plane. It is perfectly in accordance with kamma. I hear all the time on MP3 that we should see that everything is dhamma. We can repeat this and think of these words, but it can become really meaningful. Whatever experience we have here in the human plane is already conditioned, it is just dhamma, why try to change it? We should not wish for another situation and another reality, we should be contented with what is here now. We can learn to see dhamma as dhamma. A. Sujin stressed that the indriyas, faculties, of confidence, energy, mindfulness, concentration and pañña should become stronger, otherwise the four noble Truths cannot be realized. When satipatthana is being developed, confidence also becomes stronger. When akusala dhamma appears, we should be brave and be aware of it. That means that there is confidence and energy together with pañña. By listening again and again we understand more deeply that what appears now is just dhamma that we cannot change it. op 14-07-2004 03:37 schreef Andrew op athel60@t...: > Thank you very much for your clarifying thoughts and the wonderful > reminder about the turtle simile.... > It is entirely consistent with the anatta doctrine that there be some > nama-only planes. As I cling to rupa so much, I find it hard to > imagine a "being" without rupa. Which tells me that I haven't yet > fully grasped anatta! 34597 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Jul 14, 2004 10:11am Subject: Re: [dsg] Questions... Dear Icaro, I was glad to hear on the Pali list that you plan to meet Sarah, Jon and others in Bgk next January. I regret it that I will not be there, we plan to go next year beginning Oct. How wonderful that dsg friends can meet now and then. You discussed with Jim how to find more time for reading. Larry and others may like to know that both his operations were satisfactory, he is waiting for spectacles. As Jim answered, the interest can be nurtured. Yes, it comes by conditions. When things you read here on the list become more meaningful you just will find time to go deeper into matters, even while having your morning coffee. The flavour of coffee can be combined with the flavour of Dhamma, but there is nothing like the flavour of Dhamma. I will break out into poetry under your influence! A friend of the Pali list, Rett, helps out with Pali questions while drinking his morning coffee. You will find that Visuddhimagga becomes more interesting, I hope. I shall think especially of you when we get to Vis. XIV, 90 and 91, the lobha-muulacittas, that you typed out for me before by accident!! It is never wasted !!! I also use Warder for Pali and think it most useful and interesting, having nice pieces for reading already at Ch 18. Many on Pali list use it. If you get stuck do ask, many people on the Pali list will help, I also try to help. Watch out for Bhante Yuttadhammo, he makes trilineair sutta translations, also today, it can help you. I repeat Jim's wish: Success with your Dhamma study, Nina. op 13-07-2004 21:32 schreef icarofranca op icarofranca@y...: >> Hello Again Gabrielle.. > >> --------------------------------------------------------------------- > Er... How could I say it...? > My comrade Gabriel - if there's a good practitioner on lamaism > surely is Gabriel - is brazillian and is a man! 34598 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Jul 14, 2004 10:11am Subject: Intro Vis. XIV, 86, 87 Texts: Vis. 86: The consciousness of the 'fine-material sphere' is fivefold, being classed according to association with the jhana factors. That is to say, (9) the first is associated with applied thought, sustained thought, happiness, bliss, and concentration, (10) the second leaves out applied thought from that, (11) the third leaves out sustained thought from that, (12) the fourth makes happiness fade away from that, (13) the fifth is associated with equanimity and concentration, bliss having subsided. Vis. 87: That of the 'immaterial sphere' is fourfold by association with the four immaterial states; for (14) the first is associated with the jhana of the base consisting of boundless space in the way aforesaid, while (15)-(17) the second, third, and fourth, are [respectively] associated with those of the base consisting of boundless consciousness, and so on. Intro Vis. XIV, 86, 87: ***************** Intro to Vis. XIV, 86, 87: In the section on the khandha of consciousness, vi~n~naa.nakkhandha, the Visuddhimagga deals with kusala cittas of the four planes of citta. There are four planes of citta: citta of the sense sphere or kaamaavacaaracitta, ruupaavacara citta (ruupa-jhaanacitta), aruupaavacaaracitta (aruupa-jhaanacitta) and supramundane citta or lokuttara citta. The Tiika summarizes the essence of ruupa jhaana which is not as coarse as the citta of the sense sphere, but less refined as aruupa jhaana-citta, and which, unlike the lokuttara magga-citta, cannot eradicate defilements. The Tiika states: Kaamaavacara citta is involved with sense impressions. On account of eyesense and visible object seeing arises; on account of earsense and sound hearing arises; on account of the other pairs connected with sensory impingement the other sense-cognitions arise. The person who develops jhaana sees the disadvantages of being involved with sense impressions and the defilements bound up with them. He has sincerity and determination to fulfill all the different conditions necessary for the attainment of jhaana. At the moment of jhaana-citta there is no experience of sense objects and the hindrances of covetousness, aversion, etc. do not arise. Kusala kamma of the level of ruupa-jhaana, immaterial jhaana, can lead to rebirth in ruupa-brahma planes where there are less sense impressions. There are no nose, tongue, body or sexuality in those planes. Only seeing, hearing, and the experience of mental objects occur. Neither are there groups of ruupa produced by nutrition (Commentary to the Abhidhamattha Sangaha, T.A. p. 251). However, the development of ruupa-jhaana is dependent on a physical base (vatthu), and that means that the meditation subject is still bound up with ruupa. One has to look at the earth kasina or coloured kasina, for example, until one has a mental image of it. Whereas the meditation subjects of aruupa-jhaana are not bound up with ruupa. The Tiika states about ruupajhaana: . The intoxicants, aasavas, are: the intoxicant of greed of sense desire; the intoxicant of birth, the greed that desires birth in ruupa brahma planes and aruupa brahma planes. Greed for jhaana and greed accompanied by eternalism are included in this intoxicant (T. A. p. 259). The intoxicant of wrong view includes sixtytwo kinds of wrong view. The intoxicant of ignorance is ignorance of the four noble Truths and the Dependent Origination. The jhaanas are with intoxicants (saasava), they proceed along with the intoxicants and can be objects of intoxicants. One may, for example, cling to the jhaanas and the result of the jhaanas. All dhammas, except lokuttara dhammas can be an object of clinging. The Expositor (I, p. 64) states: Jhaanacitta, not even the highest stage of aruupajhaana, can lead to the end of the cycle of birth and death. Only the maggacitta can eradicate the intoxicants and it leads to the end of rebirth. Aaruupa-jhaana is more refined than ruupa-jhaana. We read in the Commentary to the Abhidammattha Sangaha (Ch3, p114): “In the formless world none of the six bases are found because there is no occurrence of materiality there at all as a result of the strength of formless beings¹ cultivation of dispassion for it.² The development of the meditation subjects of aruupa-jhaana is not dependent on any base (vatthu). The perceptions of ruupa are completely surmounted with the meditation subjects of Boundless Space, Boundless Consciousness, etc. The result of aruupa-jhaana is rebirth in the aruupa-brahma planes, where there is no ruupa and no sense impressions at all. Through the development of jhaana clinging to sense objects is temporarily subdued, and only through the development of vipassanaa clinging can be completely eradicated. The non-returner, anaagaamii, who has attained the third stage of enlightenment has eradicated clinging to sense objects. We can learn from the study of ruupa-jhaana and aruupa-jhaana that each kamma produces its appropriate result. Kamma-condition is anattaa, it is beyond control. We are born humans, and this is the result of kaamaavacara kusala kamma. Kaamaavacaara cittas are involved with the sense objects and on account of these clinging arises. On account of the sense objects akusala cittas arise time and again. When they have arisen already it shows that there are conditions for them, but we can develop understanding of them as not ³mine² or belonging to a self. We should remember that clinging to sense objects is conditioned, that it is anattaa. Through the development of vipassana we learn that whatever appears is only naama or ruupa. Visible object appears through the eyes, and when there can be awareness of it we can learn that it is only a conditioned dhamma. Also clinging to sense objects is a conditioned dhamma and it can and should be the object of right understanding. First the wrong view of self has to be eradicated and finally all other defilements can be eradicated. Renunciation from all defilements is true renunciation. **** Nina. 34599 From: icaro franca Date: Wed Jul 14, 2004 0:26pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Questions... Hi Nina! > Dear Icaro, > I was glad to hear on the Pali list that you plan to > meet Sarah, Jon and > others in Bgk next January. >------------------------------------------------------ I've bought some travel books on thai language - Lonely Planet series and Berlitz. It seems to me that thai is a language more easy to speak up than to read and write. Gosh!!! The Thai Alphabet is huge and awesome!!! Nevertheless, my vacancies will be at January! ------------------------------------------------------ > When things you read here on the list become more > meaningful you just will > find time to go deeper into matters, even while > having your morning coffee. > The flavour of coffee can be combined with the > flavour of Dhamma, but there > is nothing like the flavour of Dhamma. I will break > out into poetry under > your influence! A friend of the Pali list, Rett, > helps out with Pali > questions while drinking his morning coffee. ------------------------------------------------------- It's a good exercise keeping such recollections of ideas coming together at daily life: it's a technique used also on Kaballah, with the tree of life and so on. One of Visuddhimagga's aspects I love so much is Buddhaghosa's good will to classificate all kinds of meditations and mindfullness techniques ( chapters 3,4 and 5 mainly) and many of my former doubts about The Jhanas and meditation techniques are now entirely solved up: I've picked up the air kasina Jhana easily, with good insights! May Buddha keep Buddhaghosa always in good grace!!!! ------------------------------------------------------- > You will find that Visuddhimagga becomes more > interesting, I hope. I shall > think especially of you when we get to Vis. XIV, 90 > and 91, the > lobha-muulacittas, that you typed out for me before > by accident!! It is > never wasted !!! ------------------------------------------------------- My own notes about the matter were a bit messed up... now they are all organized in my Palm Top, and the consults are more easy and accurate. I am reading all The Visuddhimagga and when I reach the Chapter XIV, about the aggregates, I will post my viewpoints about it! ------------------------------------------------------ > I also use Warder for Pali and think it most useful > and interesting, having > nice pieces for reading already at Ch 18. Many on > Pali list use it. If you > get stuck do ask, many people on the Pali list will > help, I also try to > help. Watch out for Bhante Yuttadhammo, he makes > trilineair sutta > translations, also today, it can help you. ------------------------------------------------------ Gooda! Durosseile's is sometimes too much a scholar for me, and Narada thera's elementar Pali Course is sometimes so much "Elementar" for my needs at Dhammasangani Tiikas, for example ( they are very complicated to read sometimes!!!). ------------------------------------------------------ > I repeat Jim's wish: Pali studies.> > Success with your Dhamma study, ------------------------------------------------------- Pali language and our noble company of fearless dhamma fellows are an everlasting interest for me, Nina! keep Boostin'!!! Mettaya, Ícaro =====