34600 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Wed Jul 14, 2004 0:54pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Need clarification on a few subjects Hi Jon and all, One probably won't find in the discourses in which the Buddha specifically said to use the method of trial and error in practice. However, the fact is that in the course of one's practice, he or she faces different problems/difficulties. There are different methods to find a solution/solve a problem, and trial and error is one of them: Humans use not only trial and error but also insight based on an understanding of principles, inductive and deductive reasoning (see deduction; induction; and logic), and divergent or creative thinking (see creativity). Problem-solving abilities and styles may vary considerably by individual. http://www.britannica.com/ebc/article?eu=401247&query=problem% 20solving&ct= For example, one might try different ways to overcome drowsiness before he or she finds a way that works. But let's go back to the original point from which this discussion on trial and error started: "it takes practice and exploration to develop experiential understanding regarding sati, sampajañña and atappa." The word "explore" means 1 a : to investigate, study, or analyze : look into -- sometimes used with indirect questions b : to become familiar with by testing or experimenting http://www.webster.com/ Metta, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Hi, Victor > > Thanks for your comments here, which as usual are factually correct and > supported by good references. > > However, I don't think there is any suggestion in the texts that the > development of the path involves some kind of practice on a trial and > error basis. The whole idea seems to run contrary to the very exact > description of cause and result given in the teachings. > > In terms of carrying out a practice, 'error' must mean wrong view, and > wrong view is of the nature to prevent one seeing things for what they are > (including the wrong view itself). > > Jon > > --- yu_zhonghao wrote: > Hi Jon and all, > > > > As I see it, the Buddha's quest to nibbana involved trial and > > error. > > > > He first practiced in the doctrine & discipline of Alara Kalama. > > However, after successfully mastering Alara Kalama's doctrine & > > discipline, the Bodhisatta realized: > ... > > In short, in his quest to the Awakening, the Bodhisatta tried > > different paths that did not work before he found the way to the > > Awakening. I see that as trial and error. 34601 From: Date: Wed Jul 14, 2004 11:08am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: On the topic of Sensation, Pleasure and Pain Hi, Jon (and Nori) - In a message dated 7/14/04 11:29:49 AM Eastern Daylight Time, jonoabb@y... writes: > Hi, Nori > > --- nori wrote: >Hi Victor, Jon and all, > > > >I have discovered that it is possible through exertion of ones > >will/intention to objectively experience sensations, without > >reacting with the pleasure which is normally derived from it. > > > >For example (and you can try this) when eating food which one finds > >pleasing, it is possible through ones own volition to experience > >only the sensations which are derived from eating this food (the > >texture, temperature, taste, etc.), and not react with the pleasure > >which would normally follow ("mmmmm, this tastes good, ahhhhhh"); > >one can, by ones own volition/intention/will suspend this reaction > >of ?ereceiving?f or 'taking' the pleasure which is derived from it. > > I think what you describe here is a kind of 'forcing', or suppression of > the normal akusala reaction and its replacement by another form of > akusala. This of course has nothing to do with the development of > insight. Insight (panna/vipassana) has to do with understanding the true > nature of conditioned dhammas, for example, understanding nama as nama, > rupa as rupa. > > >From our previous discussion, we have determined that certain 'Forms > >cognizable via the eye, ...sounds cognizable via the ear... aromas > >cognizable via the nose... flavors cognizable via the tongue... > >tactile sensations cognizable via the body' are inherently ?e-- > >agreeable, pleasing, > >charming?f. > > > >So then what do think is good practice (as proclaimed by Gotama > >Buddha) when we encounter these things: > > > >Do we: a) Allow the natural reaction of pleasure to follow through > >without indulging further or b) exert our will and intention to > >objectively experience the senses without reacting ? > > Neither of these 2 options would be my idea of practice in accordance with > the dhamma. It is much more subtle and complex than this. We should not > be too eager to see an immediate reduction in 'taking pleasure' or other > forms of akusala, as this will distract us from the path of developing > insight into the true nature of the presently arising dhamma. > > My views, anyway ;-)) > > Jon > ========================== Hey, Jon - I *agree* with you!! ;-)) Generally, though this need not be the case for Nori, what Nori describes sounds like suppression. Of course, there can be times, with some people, that reactions (of craving or aversion) do not result from pleasant or unpleasant vedana, and this increasingly so depending on "development". But, in general, one cannot will non-reaction, but can merely suppress reaction (or our awareness of it), or quickly turn the mind away from the object that may lead to it. What is good to do, I think, is to attend carefully to whatever arises, as much as possible, and as clearly as possible. This bhavana will, together with other practice, cultivate the mind, increasing mindfulness and moments of insight, and tend to make the mind less reactive in the long run. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 34602 From: Date: Wed Jul 14, 2004 11:19am Subject: Re: [dsg] On the topic of Sensation, Pleasure and Pain Hi, Jon - In a message dated 7/14/04 11:33:08 AM Eastern Daylight Time, jonoabb@y... writes: > > Hi, Howard > > --- upasaka@a... wrote: >Hi, Jon - > ... > >-------------------------------------- > >Howard: > > I believe that [the Satipatthana Sutta] allows for several > alternate > >interpretations. I do agree that it does not emphasize one foundation > >over another, but it > >can be read as calling for conscious direction of attention. For > >example, the > >following suggests such direction to me (though I know it does not to > >you): << > >And how does a monk remain focused on the body in &of itself? [1] > >"There is > >the case where a monk -- having gone to the wilderness, to the shade of > >a tree, > >or to an empty building -- sits down folding his legs crosswise, holding > >his > >body erect and setting mindfulness to the fore [lit: the front of the > >chest]. > >Always mindful, he breathes in; mindful he breathes out. "Breathing in > >long, he > >discerns that he is breathing in long; or breathing out long, he > >discerns > >that he is breathing out long. ¨... > > I know you don't want to get into a debate on this, but I really don't > understand what you see in this passage that suggests a direction by the > Buddha to emphasise one 'foundation' over another. ------------------------------------------------ Howard: That's not what I said, Jon. Please reread the material of mine that you quoted above. I said that (1) I *agree* that this sutta does not emphasize one foundation over another, but (2) The sutta *can* be read as as calling for conscious direction of attention, a separate matter for us to disagree on! ;-)) I did *not* claim that there is anything to see in this passage that suggests a direction by the Buddha to emphasise one 'foundation' over another. In fact, I admitted (please see (1) above) that the sutta does *not* suggest such. ------------------------------------------------- > > >>(I'm puzzled by your reference here to 'the close relation in the > >suttas > >>between [bodily?] sensation and vedana'; grateful if you could > >elaborate > >>on this. Thanks.) > >> > >--------------------------------------------- > >Howard: > > I don't have a ready reference, Jon. Sorry. That is my > >impression. > >However, it may be influenced by the fact that 'vedana' is sometimes > >translated > > >as 'sensation', and it may also be influenced by Goenka's conflating of > >physical sensations with feelings. > >--------------------------------------------- > > Actually I wasn't expecting a reference but something in your own words > explaining the relationship as you saw it. > -------------------------------------------- Howard: Frankly, it's based mainly on my own experience. Whenever I find something pleasant or unplesant, and look more closely, I seem to find an underlying pleasant or unpleasant bodily sensation. I was wrong in attributing the realtionship to material in the suttas. ------------------------------------------------- > > Jon > ========================= With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 34603 From: Date: Wed Jul 14, 2004 4:02pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Questions... Nina: "You discussed with Jim how to find more time for reading. Larry and others may like to know that both his operations were satisfactory," Hi Nina, That's good news. I hope he is able to rejoin us before his winter hibernation. Larry 34604 From: Herman Hofman Date: Wed Jul 14, 2004 4:16pm Subject: RE: [dsg] what I heard Hi Jon, I am intrigued. ============================================== Likewise, it is sometimes apparent when awaking from a deep sleep that all the issues good and bad that normally occupy us when awake have not been issues for that period; they are just creations of the mind. Very refreshing. ============================================== You acknowledge some value in deep sleep when upon awakening there is the realisation that there was no I, there was no mine. Cannot this same valuable insight arise after deep meditation? You will probably reply with "Well, the decision to meditate is based in self-view, so what follows can't be any good either". To which I would probably reply "Next time you decide to go to bed, see if there is any self-view in that" I wish you and Sarah a safe trip back home. Herman 34605 From: Date: Wed Jul 14, 2004 4:24pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Intro Vis. XIV, 86, 87 Hi Nina, I wonder what kind of intention motivates jhana. What makes it evolve from one jhana to another? Also, I wonder how the object is maintained without applied thought and sustained thought. The object is a concept so this seems like a thought to me. Are jhana cittas only javana or is the whole citta process jhana cittas? Larry 34606 From: Philip Date: Wed Jul 14, 2004 5:06pm Subject: Got in a fight but all is right ( was Re: Arupa consciousness Hello Nina, and all Not off to Canada quite yet. Still studying hard - received my Manual of Abhidhamma and it is wonderful reading it along with a reread of ADL. And am reading the Samyutta Nikaya sections on khandas, feelings and dependent origination, along with the Path to Freedom suttas kindly linked by Victor. This morning,I responded strongly to the following passage from Nina: N: > When satipatthana is being developed, > confidence also becomes stronger. When akusala dhamma appears, we should be > brave and be aware of it. That means that there is confidence and energy > together with pañña. By listening again and again we understand more deeply > that what appears now is just dhamma that we cannot change it. Yesterday when I was biking on a very hot day to go shopping I had one of my little run-ins with another cyclist who got in my way and I shouted an obscenity (by Japanese standards) at him as well as kind of ramming his back wheel with my bike. Petit road rage! As you may remember, these temper outbursts have been a problem with me. This is the first time this has happened this year. Now, in the past I would have thought "oh dear...my streak is broken...now I have to start from scratch." But yesterday I took it as a reminder that these things are not in my control and fretting about it is just a hindrance. Seeing through to this lack of control may lead to more equanimity, which will make it less likely that it will happen again soon. May. Who knows? I felt brave about facing up to the uncertainty of life and confident that the Buddha's teaching will continue to lead me in a more wholesome direction, ever so gradually over many, many lifetimes. Metta, Phil 34607 From: kenhowardau Date: Wed Jul 14, 2004 7:01pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Abhidhamma Hi Herman, You asked: ------------------------ > Could you or someone else please provide a link to the suttas where the associating with the wise etc is referred to as pariyatti? ------------------------ I've had a look for suttas that list the factors leading to enlightenment (associating with the wise etc). They are quoted quite frequently on dsg, but I don't know if they use the word pariyatti. Anyway, I haven't found them yet – too disorganised. ----------------------- H: > The more I study about the books which make up the Theravadin tradition, the more I see a chasm between the Nikayas and what has followed them. > ------------------------- Apart from your distrust for the written word (I think Andrew has said what needed to be said there :-) ), can you be a little more specific about this "chasm?" Kind regards, Ken H 34608 From: buddhaward Date: Wed Jul 14, 2004 9:26pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Arupa consciousness Dear Nina I am a korean buddhist in Japan. Sometimes I enjoy visiting this group though I do not know well about Abhidhamma. Let me ask you some questions. > One should not see jhana as a shortcut, an > easy way to develop insight, nor as a kind of escape from daily life. What do you think Buddha's intentions were behind when Bhuddha seemed to exhort his deciples to develop Jhanas as in suttas? > say, without rupa. > We humans cling to rupa, and it fits our kamma to be here in > the human plane. It is perfectly in accordance with kamma. > I hear all the time on MP3 that we should see that everything is dhamma. We > can repeat this and think of these words, but it can become really > meaningful. Whatever experience we have here in the human plane is already > conditioned, it is just dhamma, why try to change it? We should not wish for > another situation and another reality, we should be contented with what is > here now. We can learn to see dhamma as dhamma. > A. Sujin stressed that the indriyas, faculties, of confidence, energy, > mindfulness, concentration and pañña should become stronger, otherwise the > four noble Truths cannot be realized. When satipatthana is being developed, > confidence also becomes stronger. When akusala dhamma appears, we should be > brave and be aware of it. That means that there is confidence and energy > together with pañña. By listening again and again we understand more deeply > that what appears now is just dhamma that we cannot change it. Is such an intention itself to develop the indriyas, faculties, of confidence, energy,mindfulness, concentration and pañña derived from our "wish for another situation and another reality" ? And Could you please explain how do you think we should develop them ? thank you with metta from kk 34609 From: Date: Thu Jul 15, 2004 1:19am Subject: Dependent Origination and Kamma Hi, all - A "light bulb" lit up yesterday. I was thinking about the cycle of dependent origination from the momentary perspective and exactly how and where kamma fits into it, when the bulb lit up. I believe that kamma is related to paticcasamuppada mainly with respect to two links, the sankhara phase, and the bhava phase. It occurs to me that the sankhara phase, the phase of impulsion, amounts to "conception"/sowing of kammic seeds, and that the bhava phase amounts to "gestation"/reaping of kammic seeds. Maintaining the fetus symbolism, upadana is a requisite condition for bhava just as attachment of fetus to womb is needed in order for gestation to occur and subsequent birth of "new self" to follow. From this perspective, moment by moment, mental acts of avijja-conditioned cetana (i.e., kamma) constitute the planting of kammic seeds that only commence ripening in the bhava phase when needed conditions including attachment are in place. So, the cycle of dependent origination as a samsaric process repeated millions of times in a moment within the mind could be viewed as follows: Ignorance -> Kammic Sowing -> Subjectivity <-> Objectivity -> Sense-Door Conduits (Sankhara) -> Contact -> Feeling -> Craving -> Clinging -> Kammic Reaping (Bhava) -> Birth (of renewed Ignorance) -> Death and Decay [and the whole mass of suffering] (Jara-marana) Thoughts anyone? With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 34610 From: Date: Thu Jul 15, 2004 1:57am Subject: Re: [dsg] Dependent Origination and Kamma Hi again, all - Sorry that my diagram got out-of-skew in the mailing. I'll try to rewrite it here in a way that that will not happen. With metta, Howard Ignorance Kammic Sowing (Sankhara) Subjectivity Objectivity Sense-Door Conduits Contact Feeling Craving Clinging Kammic Reaping (Bhava) Birth (of renewed Ignorance, restarting the cycle at the top) Death and Decay [and the whole mass of suffering] /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 34611 From: Date: Thu Jul 15, 2004 2:09am Subject: Re: [dsg] Dependent Origination and Kamma Hi again - In the new formulation of the DP diagram, I provided a down arrow from each link to the one below it (with a double-headed one between subjectivity and objectivity), but Yahoo erased these, because I cut and pasted them from MS Word, and Yahoo interpreted them as "pictures" that required removal. Sorry about that! With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 34612 From: Date: Thu Jul 15, 2004 2:55am Subject: Re: [dsg] Dependent Origination and Kamma In a message dated 7/15/04 5:20:31 AM Pacific Daylight Time, upasaka@a... writes: A "light bulb" lit up yesterday. I was thinking about the cycle of dependent origination from the momentary perspective and exactly how and where kamma fits into it, when the bulb lit up. I believe that kamma is related to paticcasamuppada mainly with respect to two links, the sankhara phase, and the bhava phase. ===== Howard, I see the relationship between kamma and DO slightly different but not in opposition to what you stated. In the Cycle of DO, kamma (as well as other factors) determines all links up and through vedana. The links after vedana are under our conscious control. In any event in my life I find it important to identify those aspects under my control and those not. This have been my "light bulb" realization. Jack 34613 From: icaro franca Date: Thu Jul 15, 2004 8:20am Subject: Re: [dsg] Dependent Origination and Kamma Hi Howard! > I believe > that kamma is related to > paticcasamuppada mainly with respect to two links, > the sankhara phase, and the > bhava phase. It occurs to me that the sankhara > phase, the phase of impulsion, > amounts to "conception"/sowing of kammic seeds, and > that the bhava phase amounts > to "gestation"/reaping of kammic seeds. >------------------------------------------------------>- As a matter of fact, Kamma could be called kamma-Bhava, because its a continuous process: beginning with the first link of the chain - avijjapaccaya samkhara - and the second - sankhara-Paccaya-niññanam, that are sankharas produced directly by Kamma, till Bhava-Paccaya jati, where the process of becoming due to Kamma grows to full, Kamma has a direct analogy ( as you have said it) with the nurturing and growing of phoetus inside his/her mother. And after such events we get jati-paccaya jaramaranam - the birth of a child itself and Decay and Death, with the whole mass of suffering again and again in the future - I don't remember where I have gathered up this passage of D.O. on NET, but it seems to be the same you took up!!! Hah!!! ------------------------------------------------------ Maintaining > the fetus symbolism, > upadana is a requisite condition for bhava just as > attachment of fetus to womb is > needed in order for gestation to occur and > subsequent birth of "new self" to > follow. From this perspective, moment by moment, > mental acts of > avijja-conditioned cetana (i.e., kamma) constitute > the planting of kammic seeds that only > commence ripening in the bhava phase when needed > conditions including attachment > are in place. ------------------------------------------------------- Howard, sowing a a seed and reapening the friut are , in my opinion, not so good as simile as the own phoetus process to becoming a full child. Sowing and reapening are distinct acts of cetana, and the phoetus'life inside his/her mother is a flow of events more alike Buddha's description.It seems to me that Buddha, when begin his first sermons on theravadin tradition with the Four Noble Truths, the three main characteristics and the twelve-links Dependent Origination chain, had this picture on mind - if any one of us can be able to justify Buddha's mind! the rest are O.K., Howard! Mettaya, Ícaro ------------------------------------------------------ > So, the cycle of dependent origination as a > samsaric process repeated > millions of times in a moment within the mind could > be viewed as follows: > > Ignorance -> Kammic Sowing -> Subjectivity <-> > Objectivity -> Sense-Door > Conduits > (Sankhara) > > -> Contact -> Feeling -> Craving -> Clinging -> > Kammic Reaping > > > (Bhava) > > -> Birth (of renewed Ignorance) -> Death and Decay > [and the whole mass of > suffering] > > (Jara-marana) > > Thoughts anyone? > > With metta, > Howard > > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A > star at dawn, a bubble > in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, > a flickering lamp, a > phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond > Sutra) > > ===== 34614 From: robmoult Date: Thu Jul 15, 2004 8:39am Subject: Re: Dependent Origination and Kamma Hi Howard, I'm wrapping some stuff up before a long vacation, so I'm less active on DSG of late. This post caught my interest. A month or so ago, I gave a lengthy post going through each of the 11 links of dependent origination, identifying which of the 24 conditions were in play for each link. As you may know, kamma (more specifically asynchronous kamma, which is what I think you are reffering to) is one of the 24 conditions. Kamma plays a role in the second link (conditioned by formations, consciousness arises) of DO. You can see Vism XVII 177-180 for details, but in summary, at the time of rebirth, cetana in one of the 8 kusala cittas condition one of the 8 mahavipaka cittas (as bhavanga for non-disabled people) or one of the 8 kusala cittas condition the kusala vipaka investigating citta with indifferent feeling (as bhavanga for disabled people) through asynchronous kamma condition and natural decisive support condition. During existence, cetana in the 8 kusala cittas condition 8 rootless kusala vipaka cittas through asynchronous kamma condition and natural decisive support condition. During existence, cetana in the 12 akusala cittas condition 7 rootless akusala vipaka cittas through asynchronous kamma condition and natural decisive support condition. Asynchronous kamma condition does not play a role in any of the other links within DO. However, let us look more closely at the 9th and 10th link. The 9th link is, "conditioned by clinging, becoming arises". You can refer to Vism XVII 269 for details. According to the Abhidhamma, "becoming" (bhava) in this case is actually the combination of kamma process (kamma-bhava) + rebirth process (upapatti-bhava). Kamma process is cetana and lobha etc. concomitant with it. The 10th link is, "conditioned by becoming, birth arises". In this case, "becoming" is kamma-bhava without upapatti-bhava. Hope this helps. Metta, Rob M :-) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, all - > > A "light bulb" lit up yesterday. I was thinking about the cycle of > dependent origination from the momentary perspective and exactly how and where > kamma fits into it, when the bulb lit up. I believe that kamma is related to > paticcasamuppada mainly with respect to two links, the sankhara phase, and the > bhava phase. It occurs to me that the sankhara phase, the phase of impulsion, > amounts to "conception"/sowing of kammic seeds, and that the bhava phase amounts > to "gestation"/reaping of kammic seeds. Maintaining the fetus symbolism, > upadana is a requisite condition for bhava just as attachment of fetus to womb is > needed in order for gestation to occur and subsequent birth of "new self" to > follow. From this perspective, moment by moment, mental acts of > avijja-conditioned cetana (i.e., kamma) constitute the planting of kammic seeds that only > commence ripening in the bhava phase when needed conditions including attachment > are in place. > So, the cycle of dependent origination as a samsaric process repeated > millions of times in a moment within the mind could be viewed as follows: > > Ignorance -> Kammic Sowing -> Subjectivity <-> Objectivity -> Sense- Door > Conduits > (Sankhara) > > -> Contact -> Feeling -> Craving -> Clinging -> Kammic Reaping > > (Bhava) > > -> Birth (of renewed Ignorance) -> Death and Decay [and the whole mass of > suffering] > (Jara-marana) > > Thoughts anyone? > > With metta, > Howard > > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble > in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a > phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) > > > > > 34615 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Thu Jul 15, 2004 9:09am Subject: Re: Dependent Origination and Kamma Hi Howard and all, I think that fabrications/sankhara are actions/kamma and vice versa. And craving/tanha and clinging/sustenance/upadana are fabrications/sankhara. Becoming/bhava is result of fabrications/sankhara: The realm where one is to be born depends on one's actions, and consciousness is re-established in that realm upon death. With that determined, birth takes place, in which feeling, perception, attention, contact, body, and the six-sense bases come to be. Aging takes place after birth. In the course of one's life, because of ignorance, one's various fabrications/sankhara, or, actions/kamma, in terms of craving and clinging/sustenance again condition where one is to be reborn upon death. Thus another round of rebirth. Metta, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, all - > > A "light bulb" lit up yesterday. I was thinking about the cycle of > dependent origination from the momentary perspective and exactly how and where > kamma fits into it, when the bulb lit up. I believe that kamma is related to > paticcasamuppada mainly with respect to two links, the sankhara phase, and the > bhava phase. It occurs to me that the sankhara phase, the phase of impulsion, > amounts to "conception"/sowing of kammic seeds, and that the bhava phase amounts > to "gestation"/reaping of kammic seeds. Maintaining the fetus symbolism, > upadana is a requisite condition for bhava just as attachment of fetus to womb is > needed in order for gestation to occur and subsequent birth of "new self" to > follow. From this perspective, moment by moment, mental acts of > avijja-conditioned cetana (i.e., kamma) constitute the planting of kammic seeds that only > commence ripening in the bhava phase when needed conditions including attachment > are in place. > So, the cycle of dependent origination as a samsaric process repeated > millions of times in a moment within the mind could be viewed as follows: > > Ignorance -> Kammic Sowing -> Subjectivity <-> Objectivity -> Sense-Door > Conduits > (Sankhara) > > -> Contact -> Feeling -> Craving -> Clinging -> Kammic Reaping > > (Bhava) > > -> Birth (of renewed Ignorance) -> Death and Decay [and the whole mass of > suffering] > (Jara-marana) > > Thoughts anyone? > > With metta, > Howard 34616 From: icarofranca Date: Thu Jul 15, 2004 9:51am Subject: Re: Dependent Origination and Kamma Hi RobMoult! > Asynchronous kamma condition does not play a role in any of the >other > links within DO. However, let us look more closely at the 9th and > 10th link. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- E-XACT !!!! (hiphenized!!!) Asynchronous Kamma acts directly only at 2nd link of D.O. and at the tenth: at the 1st it is almost as an attachment allowing avijja to starts the samsara wheel. Howard coined up his analogy with sowing and reaping due this fact...however kamma-bhava is a continuous flow of events. --------------------------------------------------------------------- > The 10th link is, "conditioned by becoming, birth arises". In this > case, "becoming" is kamma-bhava without upapatti-bhava. --------------------------------------------------------------------- i.e., a direct action out of Kamma or Kamma-Bhava. Mettaya, Ícaro > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > > Hi, all - > > > > A "light bulb" lit up yesterday. I was thinking about the > cycle of > > dependent origination from the momentary perspective and exactly > how and where > > kamma fits into it, when the bulb lit up. I believe that kamma is > related to > > paticcasamuppada mainly with respect to two links, the sankhara > phase, and the > > bhava phase. It occurs to me that the sankhara phase, the phase of > impulsion, > > amounts to "conception"/sowing of kammic seeds, and that the bhava > phase amounts > > to "gestation"/reaping of kammic seeds. Maintaining the fetus > symbolism, > > upadana is a requisite condition for bhava just as attachment of > fetus to womb is > > needed in order for gestation to occur and subsequent birth of "new > self" to > > follow. From this perspective, moment by moment, mental acts of > > avijja-conditioned cetana (i.e., kamma) constitute the planting of > kammic seeds that only > > commence ripening in the bhava phase when needed conditions > including attachment > > are in place. > > So, the cycle of dependent origination as a samsaric process > repeated > > millions of times in a moment within the mind could be viewed as > follows: > > > > Ignorance -> Kammic Sowing -> Subjectivity <-> Objectivity -> Sense- > Door > > Conduits > > (Sankhara) > > > > -> Contact -> Feeling -> Craving -> Clinging -> Kammic Reaping > > > > > (Bhava) > > > > -> Birth (of renewed Ignorance) -> Death and Decay [and the whole > mass of > > suffering] > > (Jara-marana) > > > > Thoughts anyone? > > > > With metta, > > Howard 34617 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Jul 15, 2004 11:14am Subject: Re: [dsg] Got in a fight but all is right Hello Philip, I appreciate it that you study so much. op 15-07-2004 02:06 schreef Philip op plnao@j...: > > N: > When satipatthana is being developed, >> confidence also becomes stronger. When akusala dhamma appears, we > should be >> brave and be aware of it. That means that there is confidence and > energy >> together with pañña. By listening again and again we understand > more deeply >> that what appears now is just dhamma that we cannot change it. As you may > remember, these temper outbursts have been a problem with me. ... yesterday I took it as a reminder that these > things are not in my control and fretting about it is just a > hindrance. Seeing through to this lack of control may lead to more > equanimity, which will make it less likely that it will happen again > soon. N: Lodewijk and I discussed before that people may also take it the wrong way: O, just conditions, just accumulations, who cares. You did not take it that way, but perhaps I should add a few words lest others have misunderstandings. I partly repeat what I said before. We all have accumulations that we are not jubilant about. Of course. They are so stubborn, like weeds, but they have to be pulled out. And worry about them is again aversion. Good to realize them as conditioned namas. Conceit plays a big role in whatever we do. My important person, how dare he do this to me. Or: how can I behave so ugly, that can also be conceit. We have to consider the citta, there can also be wholesome shame. When there is more confidence we see more the disadvantage of akusala and the benefit of kusala. Satipatthana helps very much in this. We see that it is also necessary to develop the Brahmaviharas in our relationship with others. It is what A. Sujin says, I heard it this morning: We should not forget the Brahmaviharas, I learnt that from you. It is a good idea to say to the other cyclist (but perhaps you did) that you are sorry, or to make amends. To treat him as your friend, even when he was wrong. Friend cyclist! When driving we do not mind when others pass us very fast or do strange things. Just let them. I appreciated it that Bhante Samahita gave us texts on the untrained mind; there is nothing more intractible then the untrained mind. As I mentioned, Lodewijk was so impressed by this text. He said, it is like being hammered on the head. And how can the mind be trained? By satipatthana. The guarding of the six doors, sila, is included in it. Nina. 34618 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Jul 15, 2004 11:14am Subject: Tiika Vis. XIV, 86, 87, Pali Vis. 86. ruupaavacara.m pana jhaana"ngayogabhedato pa~ncavidha.m hoti. seyyathida.m. vitakkavicaarapiitisukhasamaadhiyutta.m pa.thama.m, atikkantavitakka.m dutiya.m, tato atikkantavicaara.m tatiya.m, tato virattapiitika.m catuttha.m, attha"ngatasukha.m upekkhaasamaadhiyutta.m pa~ncamanti. Tiika 86. Ruupaavacara.m panaati pana-saddo visesatthajotako. As to the expression ³however the consciousness of the fine-material sphere², the word , (meaning here) ³however², explains the distinction. Tena yathaa kaamaavacara.m kilesaana.m tada"ngappahaanamattakara.m, na evamida.m, ida.m pana vikkhambhanappahaanakara.m. Consciousness of the sense sphere overcomes defilements just by substitution of their opposites, however, this is not so with the fine-material consciousness, this overcomes them by repression. Yathaa vaa ta.m vedanaa~naa.nasa"nkhaarabhedato a.t.thadhaa bhijjati, na evamida.m, ida.m pana tato a~n~nathaa vaati vakkhamaana.m visesa.m joteti. Or, consciousness of the sense sphere is classified as eightfold, according to feeling, wisdom, being prompted, however, this is not so (in the case of consciousness of the fine-material sphere); in saying that this (the consciousness of the fine-material sphere) is otherwise he explained the distinction. Ta.m paneta.m savatthuka.m, saasava.m, viniivara.na~nca ruupaavacaranti da.t.thabba.m. This, the consciousness of the fine-material sphere, however, should be understood as being with a physical base, with intoxicants, and without the hindrances. ³Savatthuka.m evaa²ti hi iminaa aruupaavacara.m nivatteti, ³saasavan²ti iminaa pa.thamamaggacitta.m, ³viniivara.nan²ti iminaa pa.tighasahitadvaya.m. It is with a physical base (vatthu), and this means that it turns away from aruupa-jhaana; it is with intoxicants and this means that it turns away from the path-consciousness; it is without the hindrances, and this means that it turns away from the pair connected with sensory impingement. Katthaci pa~nca jhaana"ngaani, katthaci cattaari, katthaci tii.ni, katthaci dve, katthaci aparaani dveti eva.m jhaana"ngayogabhedato pa~ncavidhanti sa"nkhepato vuttamattha.m vivaritu.m ³seyyathidan²ti-aadi aaraddha.m. Wherever there are five, four, three, two and again another two jhaana-factors, he classified the consciousness of the 'fine-material sphere' as fivefold, according to its association with the jhana factors and, in order to explain the meaning of what was said in brief, he said to begin with, ³that is to say (the first is associated with applied thought...)². Tattha ya.m vattabba.m, ta.m he.t.thaa jhaanakathaaya.m (visuddhi. 1.79 aadayo) vuttameva. What should be said in that case has been said before in the Description of Jhaana (Visuddhimagga, Part II). Tayida.m bhaavanaamayameva hutvaa vuttanayena pathaviikasi.naadika.m aalambitvaa yathaaraha.m ~naa.nasampayuttakusalaanantara.m uppajjati, Therefore, after there has been the development according to the method that was explained, and the meditation subject beginning with the earth kasina has been taken, kusala cittas connected with understanding arise accordingly, hiinaadibhedabhinna.m paneta.m yathaakkama.m brahmapaarisajjaadiisu so.lasasupi brahmalokesu upapattinipphaadakanti da.t.thabba.m. and when jhaana is developed in due order, beginning with a limited degree (of absorption) etc. it should be understood that it can produce rebirth in the plane of Brahma¹s Retinue and so on, that is to say, in sixteen brahma planes. Vis. 87. aruupaavacara.m catunna.m aaruppaana.m yogavasena catubbidha.m. vuttappakaarena hi aakaasaana~ncaayatanajjhaanena sampayutta.m pa.thama.m, vi~n~naa.na~ncaayatanaadiihi dutiyatatiyacatutthaani. Pali Tiika 87: Ruupasa~n~naasamatikkamaadinaa samadhigantabba.m aruupaavacara.m. With the complete surmounting of perceptions of matter he must attain immaterial consciousness. Catunna.m aruupaananti upekkhaasamaadhisa"nkhaatehi catuuhi aruupajjhaanehi. As to the expression, of the four immaterial states, this refers to the four stages of aruupa-jhaana that are reckoned as associated with the factors equanimity and concentration.... N: The text of the Vis. uses the expression: catunna.m aaruppaana.m, of the four immaterial states, and we have to note here: aaruppaana.m with two p¹s, instead of aruupaana.m and this is a word association with ruppa: what is molested. Of ruupa it is said that it is molested, (ruppati, to molest), by cold, heat, etc. or by change. The four meditation subjects of aruupa-jhaana are not dependent on any materiality, they are not molested. The Tiika states further on that the aruupajhaanacittas of the four stages are classified according to their meditation subjects and it refers to the Description of the Immaterial jhaanas (Part II, Ch 10). The Tiika mentions the four stages which have as subjects: Boundless Space, Unbounded Consciousness, Nothingness, Neither-Perception-Nor-Non-Perception. The result is rebirth in four aruupa-brahma planes. ****** Nina 34619 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Jul 15, 2004 11:14am Subject: Tiika Vis. XIV, 86, 87. Vis. 86. 86. The consciousness of the 'fine-material sphere' is fivefold, being classed according to association with the jhana factors. That is to say, (9) the first is associated with applied thought, sustained thought, happiness, bliss, and concentration, (10) the second leaves out applied thought from that, (11) the third leaves out sustained thought from that, (12) the fourth makes happiness fade away from that, (13) the fifth is associated with equanimity and concentration, bliss having subsided. Tiika 86. ?s to the expression ³however the consciousness of the fine-material sphere², the word , (meaning here) ³however², explains the distinction. N: The translator of the Vis text did not translate , "however". The consciousness of the fine-material sphere is distinct in several ways from the foregoing kusala cittas of the sense sphere that were explained. In the following lines the Tiika explains the differences, using the word , to render the distinction. It can be translated as: however, this is not so in the case of... Tiika: Consciousness of the sense sphere overcomes defilements just by substitution of their opposites, however, this is not so with the fine-material consciousness, this overcomes them by repression. N: In the development of insight the perception of permanence is overcome by the perception of impermanence, and so on. This is overcoming by the opposites (tada²nga pahaana). The jhaanacitta temporarily subdues the hindrances. Tiika: Or, consciousness of the sense sphere is classified as eightfold, according to feeling, wisdom, being prompted, however, this is not so (in the case of consciousness of the fine-material sphere); in saying that this (the consciousness of the fine-material sphere) is otherwise he explained the distinction. This, the consciousness of the fine-material sphere, however, should be understood as being with a physical base, with intoxicants, and without the hindrances. It is with a physical base (vatthu), and this means that it turns away from aruupa-jhaana; it is with intoxicants and this means that it turns away from the path-consciousness; it is without the hindrances, and this means that it turns away from the pair connected with sensory impingement. N: Since its meditation subject is dependent on and involved with ruupa, it is not inclined to aruupa-jhaana, its development does not lead to aruupa-jhaana. For further explanations, see my Intro. Tiika: Wherever there are five, four, three, two and again another two jhaana-factors, he classified the consciousness of the 'fine-material sphere' as fivefold, according to its association with the jhana factors and, in order to explain the meaning of what was said in brief, he said to begin with, ³that is to say (the first is associated with applied thought...)². What should be said in that case has been said before in the Description of Jhaana (Visuddhimagga, Part II). Therefore, after there has been the development according to the method that was explained, and the meditation subject beginning with the earth kasina has been taken, kusala cittas connected with understanding arise accordingly, and when jhaana is developed in due order, beginning with a limited degree (of absorption) etc. it should be understood that it can produce rebirth in the plane of Brahma¹s Retinue and so on, that is to say, in sixteen brahma planes. N: Those who have a limited degree of absorption of the first jhaana will be reborn in the lowest plane of ruupa-brahmans, namely, the plane of Brahma¹s Retinue. Those with a medium and a high degree of absorption of the first jhaana will be reborn accordingly in higher ruupa-brahma planes: the plane of Brahma¹s Ministers and the Great Brahmaas. Each stage of jhaana can be of a limited, a medium or a high degree of absorption, Each of these degrees produces its result accordingly (Commentary to the Abhidhammattha Sangaha, A.T. P. 108, 109) ***** Vis. 87: That of the 'immaterial sphere' is fourfold by association with the four immaterial states; for (14) the first is associated with the jhana of the base consisting of boundless space in the way aforesaid, while (15)-(17) the second, third, and fourth, are [respectively] associated with those of the base consisting of boundless consciousness, and so on. Tiika 87: With the complete surmounting of perceptions of matter he must attain immaterial consciousness. As to the expression, of the four immaterial states, this refers to the four stages of aruupa-jhaana that are reckoned as associated with the factors equanimity and concentration. N: There are four stages of aruupajhaana and all four aruupa-jhaanacittas are accompanied by the same two factors as the fifth ruupa-jhaanacitta, by equanimity and concentration. The text of the Vis. uses the expression: catunna.m aaruppaana.m, of the four immaterial states, and we have to note here: aaruppaana.m with two p¹s, instead of aruupaana.m and this is a word association with ruppa: what is molested. Of ruupa it is said that it is molested, (ruppati, to molest), by cold, heat, etc. or by change. The four meditation subjects of aruupa-jhaana are not dependent on any materiality, they are not molested. The Tiika states further on that the aruupajhaanacittas of the four stages are classified according to their meditation subjects and it refers to the Description of the Immaterial jhaanas (Part II, Ch 10). The Tiika mentions the four stages which have as subjects: Boundless Space, Unbounded Consciousness, Nothingness, Neither-Perception-Nor-Non-Perception. The result is rebirth in four aruupa-brahma planes. **** Nina. 34620 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Jul 15, 2004 11:14am Subject: Re: [dsg] the stock of texts Hi Larry, op 15-07-2004 01:02 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > Nina: "You discussed with Jim how to find more time for reading. Larry > and others may like to know that both his operations were satisfactory," > That's good news. I hope he is able to rejoin us before his winter > hibernation. N: I am not sure, since he will be busy with his own list, on Kaccayaana, an old Pali grammar. He helps now and then on the Pali list. He is always willing to help if we need texts. I do not know about the stock of Vis. texts now. The Canadian winter is long and cold, and the fire of interest has to be kept burning! Nina. 34621 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Jul 15, 2004 11:14am Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. Vis. XIV, 86, 87 Hi Larry, op 15-07-2004 01:24 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > I wonder what kind of intention motivates jhana. N: It is more than intention alone. Firstly, one has to have rebirth-consciousness with three roots, thus, with wisdom. One's true accumulations should be detachment from sense pleasures. One has to be very sincere and truthful to oneself. Does one really want to live practically as a monk, sever all impediments of dwelling, family, relatives, books, etc. ? He has to have keen pañña knowing what is favorable and what is unfavorable to jhana. He has to know precisely when the citta is kusala, when akusala, he has to know all the cetasikas that are the jhanafactors, etc. L: What makes it evolve > from one jhana to another? N: The development with great pañña that knows which factors that are gross have to be abandoned in order to reach a higher more refined stage. That is why he has to have precise, keen understanding of the jhanafactors. L: Also, I wonder how the object is maintained > without applied thought and sustained thought. N: He becomes so skillful that he does not need applied thought and sustained thought anymore in order to be focussed on the meditation subject. It all comes naturally, because of the proper conditions being cultivated. L: The object is a concept > so this seems like a thought to me. N: It is a concept experienced through the mind-door, but this does not mean that thinking is necessary. We should not confuse the functions of applied thought and sustained thought with the word thinking as used in conventional sense. Jhanacitta does not need to think in words or name anything, it is just absorption concentration on a meditation subject. It is focussed on it. Even at the first stage. The two factors of applied thought and sustained thought assist the jhanacitta to be concentrated on the object without having to think about it. L: Are jhana cittas only javana or is the whole citta process jhana cittas? N: Jhanacitta arises in a process: as in the case of lokuttaracitta: mind-door adverting consciousness, then follow kuala cittas with pañña still belonging to the sense sphere: preparatory consciousness, proximity consciousness, conformity or adaptation, change-of-lineage (gotrabhuu) which is the last kaamaavacaaracitta and then jhana-citta. Thus not the whole process is jhanacitta. For the first time there may be only one moment of jhanacitta, but when there is more skill jhanacittas can arise succeeding one another even for a whole day. They are javana-cittas, rupaavacara kusala cittas or aruupaavacara kusala cittas, or kiriyacittas in the case of arahats. The Buddha would teach the monks not to take jhanacitta for self, they should develop insight and learn to see the jhanacitta as impermanent, dukkha and non-self. His teaching is different from all other teachers who taught the development of jhana. Nina. 34622 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Thu Jul 15, 2004 0:27pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: On the topic of Sensation, Pleasure and Pain Hi, Howard --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Jon (and Nori) - > > In a message dated 7/14/04 11:29:49 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > jonoabb@y... writes: ... > > Neither of these 2 options would be my idea of practice in accordance > with > > the dhamma. It is much more subtle and complex than this. We should > not > > be too eager to see an immediate reduction in 'taking pleasure' or > other > > forms of akusala, as this will distract us from the path of developing > > insight into the true nature of the presently arising dhamma. > > > > My views, anyway ;-)) > > > > Jon > > > ========================== > Hey, Jon - I *agree* with you!! ;-)) That's great, Howard! We may not be able to agree what the practice *is*, but at least we can agree what it *isn't* ;-)) > Generally, though this need not > be the case for Nori, what Nori describes sounds like suppression. Of > course, > there can be times, with some people, that reactions (of craving or > aversion) > do not result from pleasant or unpleasant vedana, and this increasingly > so > depending on "development". But, in general, one cannot will > non-reaction, but can > merely suppress reaction (or our awareness of it), or quickly turn the > mind > away from the object that may lead to it. Yes, and these are all attempts at control and hence doomed to be akusala. > What is good to do, I think, is to > attend carefully to whatever arises, as much as possible, and as clearly > as > possible. This bhavana will, together with other practice, cultivate the > mind, > increasing mindfulness and moments of insight, and tend to make the mind > less reactive in the long run. Although is there really such a thing as a *non-reactive* mind? Perhaps you mean, without akusala reaction. But that comes (much, much) later, as I understand the order of things. Jon 34623 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Thu Jul 15, 2004 0:34pm Subject: RE: [dsg] what I heard Hi, Herman --- Herman Hofman wrote: > Hi Jon, > You acknowledge some value in deep sleep when upon awakening there is > the realisation that there was no I, there was no mine. > > Cannot this same valuable insight arise after deep meditation? Are you suggesting that the same mental state may result from deep sleep as from deep meditation? In that case, why bother to meditate? Just think of the possibilities... Time to do my practice. Zzz Zzz Zzz ... ;-)) > You will probably reply with "Well, the decision to meditate is based in > self-view, so what follows can't be any good either". > > To which I would probably reply "Next time you decide to go to bed, see > if there is any self-view in that" But the question is, does anyone go to bed thinking it's going to make them wiser? Jon 34624 From: Date: Thu Jul 15, 2004 8:50am Subject: Re: [dsg] Dependent Origination and Kamma Hi, Icaro - In a message dated 7/15/04 11:23:42 AM Eastern Daylight Time, icarofranca@y... writes: > I don't remember where I have > gathered up this passage of D.O. on NET, but it seems > to be the same you took up!!! Hah!!! > ===================== Thanks for your detailed reply. I'm only responding here to that bit which I have quoted above: I didn't get this from somewher on the internet, but from my own fevered brain! So, I have no one to blame but myself! ;-) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 34625 From: Date: Thu Jul 15, 2004 9:06am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: On the topic of Sensation, Pleasure and Pain Hi, Jon - In a message dated 7/15/04 3:45:46 PM Eastern Daylight Time, jonoabb@ya hoo.com.hk writes: > > Hey, Jon - I *agree* with you!! ;-)) > > That's great, Howard! We may not be able to agree what the practice *is*, > but at least we can agree what it *isn't* ;-)) ---------------------------------------- Howard: ---------------------------------------- > > >Generally, though this need not > >be the case for Nori, what Nori describes sounds like suppression. Of > >course, > >there can be times, with some people, that reactions (of craving or > >aversion) > >do not result from pleasant or unpleasant vedana, and this increasingly > >so > >depending on "development". But, in general, one cannot will > >non-reaction, but can > >merely suppress reaction (or our awareness of it), or quickly turn the > >mind > >away from the object that may lead to it. > > Yes, and these are all attempts at control and hence doomed to be akusala. > > >What is good to do, I think, is to > >attend carefully to whatever arises, as much as possible, and as clearly > >as > >possible. This bhavana will, together with other practice, cultivate the > >mind, > >increasing mindfulness and moments of insight, and tend to make the mind > >less reactive in the long run. > > Although is there really such a thing as a *non-reactive* mind? Perhaps > you mean, without akusala reaction. But that comes (much, much) later, as > I understand the order of things. ---------------------------------------------- Howard: Yes, akusala reaction is exactly what I meant - specifically tanha. And, yes, as far as significant less reactiveness, that indeed comes much later, but, by degrees, along the way, the tendency to react can diminish. ----------------------------------------------- > > Jon > ======================= With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 34626 From: icarofranca Date: Thu Jul 15, 2004 2:16pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Dependent Origination and Kamma Hi Howard! > Thanks for your detailed reply. I'm only responding here to >that bit > which I have quoted above: I didn't get this from somewher on the internet, but >> from my own fevered brain! So, I have no one to blame but >myself! ;-) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Yeah!!! At Mahavagga Vinaya, the first idea that comes to Buddha under the Boddhi tree is the Dependent Origination. After that he stood seven days in Bliss, concocting the Abdhidhamma at Deva's Abode! So you can trace the original "Fórmula" of Buddha at this very beginning: the Four Noble truths: Dukkha Samuddha Niroddha Magga the Three main characteristcs: dukkha ( Du + Kkha = "Hard to bearing") anicca anatta And the twelve links of D.O....after these moments, at the seven days of Bliss under Boddhi trees at uruvela, etc,occurs The genesis of Abhidhamma! At least at Vinaya, these are the foundations of Buddhism! Metta, Ícaro > > With metta, > Howard > > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble > in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a > phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) > > > > > 34627 From: Herman Hofman Date: Thu Jul 15, 2004 3:35pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Dependent Origination and Kamma Hi Howard, I believe that dependent origination from momentary perspective has good textual (nikaya) support. The Dhamma is often said to be "akalika" (timeless, immediate, not subject to time). There is also good textual support (nikaya) for dependent origination not being "one* rigid formula, as there are varying DO structures in the suttas. This demonstrates to me that DO is not so much about the content of the structure (the links), but about structure as a whole, that all of whichever (variable) links are in play are immediately there, or none are. DO shows that there are no single dhammas or single conditions. If there is one dhamma, there are countless dhammas and conditions. My thoughts only, of course :-) Herman -----Original Message----- From: upasaka@a... [mailto:upasaka@a...] Sent: Thursday, 15 July 2004 10:19 PM To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Subject: [dsg] Dependent Origination and Kamma Hi, all - A "light bulb" lit up yesterday. I was thinking about the cycle of dependent origination from the momentary perspective and exactly how and where kamma fits into it, when the bulb lit up. I believe that kamma is related to paticcasamuppada mainly with respect to two links, the sankhara phase, and the bhava phase. It occurs to me that the sankhara phase, the phase of impulsion, amounts to "conception"/sowing of kammic seeds, and that the bhava phase amounts to "gestation"/reaping of kammic seeds. Maintaining the fetus symbolism, upadana is a requisite condition for bhava just as attachment of fetus to womb is needed in order for gestation to occur and subsequent birth of "new self" to follow. From this perspective, moment by moment, mental acts of avijja-conditioned cetana (i.e., kamma) constitute the planting of kammic seeds that only commence ripening in the bhava phase when needed conditions including attachment are in place. So, the cycle of dependent origination as a samsaric process repeated millions of times in a moment within the mind could be viewed as follows: Ignorance -> Kammic Sowing -> Subjectivity <-> Objectivity -> Sense-Door Conduits (Sankhara) -> Contact -> Feeling -> Craving -> Clinging -> Kammic Reaping (Bhava) -> Birth (of renewed Ignorance) -> Death and Decay [and the whole mass of suffering] (Jara-marana) Thoughts anyone? With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 34628 From: Herman Hofman Date: Thu Jul 15, 2004 3:47pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Dependent Origination and Kamma Hi Icaro, You wrote: And the twelve links of D.O....after these moments, at the seven days of Bliss under Boddhi trees at uruvela, etc,occurs The genesis of Abhidhamma! At least at Vinaya, these are the foundations of Buddhism! ================================== Are you saying that the Vinaya is the source for the idea that the Abhidhamma (as Abhidhamma) came into existence under the Bodhi tree? Could you provide a link? Thanks Herman 34629 From: Date: Thu Jul 15, 2004 4:05pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. Vis. XIV, 86, 87 L: "What makes it (jhana) evolve from one jhana to another?" N: "The development with great pañña that knows which factors that are gross have to be abandoned in order to reach a higher more refined stage." Hi Nina, These are not jhana cittas, correct? After a moment of jhana is there a reviewing? Why does it go in stages, little by little? What do you mean by "gross"? Is it a matter of evaluating tranquility? What is one trying to do in jhana? Larry 34630 From: icarofranca Date: Thu Jul 15, 2004 4:31pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Dependent Origination and Kamma Hi Herman: > ================================== > Are you saying that the Vinaya is the source for the idea that the > Abhidhamma (as Abhidhamma) came into existence under the Bodhi tree? > Could you provide a link? --------------------------------------------------------------------- At Mahavagga, chapter one, under the Bodhi tree, the first idea that came to Buddha WAS Dependent Origination. After that, Buddha spent five cycles of seven days of Bliss under Bodhi trees at Uruvella, Savatthi, etc. Finishing this period of bliss he came back to his old friends of ascesis at Benares. Well, tradition tells that The Abhidhamma was raised up at Deva´s Realms by Buddha in such Bliss periods of seven days. You can check out Mahavagga Vinaya, Chapter One, First Khandhaka. Mettaya, Ícaro 34631 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Jul 15, 2004 9:19pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Arupa consciousness Dear k k, (buddhaward), op 15-07-2004 06:26 schreef buddhaward op buddhaward@y...: > I am a korean buddhist in Japan. N: Happy to meet you! K: Sometimes I enjoy visiting this group though I do not know well about > Abhidhamma. N: Do stay with us. It helps to ask questions on Abhidhamma, little by little you will become familiar with it. Most wellcome. Besides Abhidhamma, we talk about suttas, and also about the application of Dhamma in our life, solving problems, etc. K: > easy way to develop insight, nor as a kind of escape from daily > life. > What do you think Buddha's intentions were behind when Bhuddha > seemed to exhort his deciples to develop Jhanas as in suttas? N: His teaching was always directed towards the understanding of impermanence, dukkha and non-self. Whatever he taught, there always was this goal. He spoke to people of different inclinations, with different abilities, and when they had accumulated skill for jhana he would help them not to take jhana for self. They could use it as a foundation for insight, that is to say, be mindful and develop understanding also of jhanacitta. Some people were highly gifted and could develop both jhana and insight and attain arahatship with the highest distinctive qualities. > K: ... (snipped) We should not > wish for >> another situation and another reality, we should be contented with > what is >> here now. We can learn to see dhamma as dhamma. >> A. Sujin stressed that the indriyas, faculties, of confidence, > energy, >> mindfulness, concentration and pañña should become stronger, > otherwise the >> four noble Truths cannot be realized. When satipatthana is being > developed, >> confidence also becomes stronger. When akusala dhamma appears, we > should be >> brave and be aware of it. That means that there is confidence and > energy >> together with pañña. By listening again and again we understand > more deeply >> that what appears now is just dhamma that we cannot change it. > K: Is such an intention itself to develop the indriyas, faculties, of > confidence, energy,mindfulness, concentration and pañña derived from > our "wish for another situation and another reality" ? N: On the contrary. They are developed together and then we have more and more confidence not to look for objects of awareness other than what appears at this very moment, yes, we have great confidence that this is the only way. We cannot develop clear understanding of what is past or of what has not yet come. > K: And Could you please explain how do you think we should develop them ? N: We should first have intellectual understanding of mental phenomena and physical phenomena, and this can grow by listening, discussing, studying. This in itself is a condition for the arising of direct understanding. Also direct understanbding is non-self, it has its own conditions for its arising. If we do not obstruct its arising by wishing it to develop fast, by forcing it, trying to direct it, it can grow in its own time. We need patience and endurance. As understanding grows, even when it is not yet of the level of direct understanding, the confidence, energy, mindfulness, concentration develop along with understanding. Right understanding of the realities appearing in our life and learning to see them as only conditioned dhammas, that is the way that those faculties can become stronger. I like your direct questions, thank you. You are wellcome any time. Nina. 34632 From: Herman Hofman Date: Fri Jul 16, 2004 3:40am Subject: RE: [dsg] what I heard Hi Jon, ======================================= J : Are you suggesting that the same mental state may result from deep sleep as from deep meditation? In that case, why bother to meditate? Just think of the possibilities... Time to do my practice. Zzz Zzz Zzz ... ;-)) ======================================= H: I think the Buddha might have replied with something like "Why bother to sleep?" Not a moment to loose, Jon :-) Herman 34633 From: Herman Hofman Date: Fri Jul 16, 2004 3:45am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Abhidhamma Hi Ken, =========================================== Apart from your distrust for the written word (I think Andrew has said what needed to be said there :-) ), can you be a little more specific about this "chasm?" =========================================== I don't mistrust the written word, I just don't think it will lead anybody to enlightenment. But then again, I am also fairly sure that enlightenment a la Buddha is not actually what people are after these days. With regards to the chasm, watch this space :-) Catch you later Herman 34634 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Jul 16, 2004 11:58am Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. Vis. XIV, 86, 87 op 16-07-2004 01:05 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > L: "What makes it (jhana) evolve from one jhana to another?" > > N: "The development with great pañña that knows which factors that > are gross > have to be abandoned in order to reach a higher more refined stage."> > L: These are not jhana cittas, correct? After a moment of jhana is there a > reviewing? N: Yes, there have to be. Such moments are not jhanacittas. He has to consider with pañña the jhana he attained before, the jhanafactors that accompanied that stage of jhana. We read in the "Path of Discrimination", Pa.tisambidhaamagga:( Engl. p. 36) : 217: Sati sampajañña has to carefully realize which conditions are unfavorable and which are favorable. Pañña has to be keen to know the right cause for the right effect. L: Why does it go in stages, little by little? What do you mean by "gross"? Is it a matter of evaluating tranquility? N: It is already difficult to maintain jhana, and more difficult to attain higher stages of jhana. Detachment has to grow. He sees that the first jhana is still gross, not as tranquil and refined as the second stage without applied thought. In order to attain the second stage he abandons applied thought. He successively abandons piiti, rapture, and happy feeling. In the highest stage of ruupa-jhaana , the fourth of the fourfold system and the fifth of the fivefold system, there are only equanimity and concentration. He foregoes all happy feeling, this stage is very peaceful. He should be praised, because he is detached from all happiness that was experienced before. L:What is one trying > to do in jhana? N: To subdue the hindrances of sense desire, aversion, and so on. It is repeated: completely away from sense pleasures. He must be very determined. And then he becomes detached even from the highest and most refined rapture and happy feeling when he abandons these. This is most difficult, he is worthy of praise. Lodewijk asked me today why we should study jhana, he feels it is far away from him. I explained that we read about jhana in the suttas and that there are several reasons for reflecting on jhana. We can admire arahats in the Buddha's time who attained the jhanas and had the four discriminative knowledges. Another reason is that there are misunderstandings about what true jhana is. There may be accumulated conditions for some people to have special experiences, but one should carefully check whether these truly lead to detachment. In the development of jhana there has to be detachment from pleasure and happiness all the way. It is not a small matter to develop jhana, it cannot be accomplished properly by practising just a few hours a day. We then talked about it how difficult it is to be detached from the idea of person when looking at a person. We were looking at each other in the restaurant today, celebrating our fifty second wedding day! To know that what we see is only visible object. Only through insight ignorance and wrong view can be eradicated. Jhana means temporary detachment, but vipassana leads eventually to complete detachment. To show the difference between samatha and vipassana I shall quote from my latent tendency text: We read in the ³Sumangalavilåsiní², the Commentary to the Dígha Nikåya, in the Commentary to the ³Net of Views² (Brahmajålasutta), under the section on Síla: ³In the Vinaya he taught the abandoning of the coarse defilements, because morality is opposed to coarse defilements. He taught the abandoning of medium defilements in the Suttanta, because concentration is opposed to medium defilements. He taught the abandoning of subtle defilements in the Abhidhamma because wisdom is opposed to subtle defilements. He taught in the first Piìaka the temporary elimination of defilements and in the other two Piìakas he taught (respectively) the elimination of defilements by suppression and by complete cutting off. The abandoning of the corruptions (sankilesa) which are akusala kamma he taught in the first Piìaka, the abandoning of the corruptions which are craving (tanhå) and wrong view (ditthi) he taught (respectively) in the other two Pitakas.² There are the expressions: overcoming by repression, vikkhambhana-pahåna, and overcoming by destruction, samuccheda-pahåna. Overcoming by repression refers to the subduing of the hindrances and so on by suppression, by preventing their arising by means of concentration of the degree of access concentration and attainment concentration (jhåna), just as a pot thrown into moss-clad water pushes the moss aside. Overcoming by destruction (samuccheda-pahåna) refers to the abandoning of the groups of defilements which originate in the succession of cittas of someone who develops the Path and which are completely eradicated by the four supramundane Paths so that they cannot arise anymore. Nina. 34635 From: buddhatrue Date: Fri Jul 16, 2004 3:19pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. Vis. XIV, 86, 87 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > Lodewijk asked me today why we should study jhana, he feels it is far away > from him. I explained that we read about jhana in the suttas and that there > are several reasons for reflecting on jhana. We can admire arahats in the > Buddha's time who attained the jhanas and had the four discriminative > knowledges. Another reason is that there are misunderstandings about what > true jhana is. There may be accumulated conditions for some people to have > special experiences, but one should carefully check whether these truly lead > to detachment. In the development of jhana there has to be detachment from > pleasure and happiness all the way. It is not a small matter to develop > jhana, it cannot be accomplished properly by practising just a few hours a > day. Friend Nina, I have been reading your posts about jhana with great interest. They have been very good and worthwhile. You have been giving a lot of valuable information about jhana practice. However, I have noticed in a few posts where you have stated that jhana practice is not meant for the householder, only for the monk. I have posted to you about this before, but perhaps it has slipped your mind. Please allow me to gently remind you again that the Buddha did encourage householders to practice and achieve jhana: AN 109 "The Rapture of Seculsion": "Then the householder Anathapindika, accompanied by five hundred lay followers, approached the Blessed One…The Blessed One then said to them: `Householders, you attend upon the Sangha of monks with robes, almsfood, lodgings and medicinal requisites for use in time of sickness. But you should not remain satisfied merely with this. Rather, householders, you should train yourselves thus: `How can we enter and dwell from time to time in the rapture of seclusion?'33 Thus should you train yourselves.'… Note 33: Pavivekam pitim. AA: The rapture arising in dependence on the first and second jhanas. Here the Buddha states that householders who are lay disciples should find the means to practice and enter at least the first two jhanas. Obviously, a householder isn't going to be able to practice meditation all day, everyday (like a monk does), in order to achieve this; therefore, one must be able to achieve the jhanas with just a few hours of practice a day…or possibly going on a brief meditation retreat(s) to achieve the jhanas. The Buddha wouldn't tell householders to do something that they couldn't possibly do, right? Please continue with your wonderful posts on jhana and jhanacittas, etc. They are very informative. However, I believe that you should follow the Buddha's example and encourage householders to achieve the first two jhanas as a worthwhile and quite possible goal. Metta, James 34636 From: Philip Date: Fri Jul 16, 2004 3:35pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Got in a fight but all is right Hello Nina, and all N:> I appreciate it that you study so much. Ph: I appreciate it that you teach so much and write so many fabulous books and articles! The latest thing I have in my head is from with a dialogue towards the end of with Abhidhamma in Daily Life or Buddhism in Daily Life, I forget which. You ask the questioner what should be the goal of practice, and she or he answers "to eradicate defilements", which is the way I would have answered, having read that somewhere in one of the books. But you refine this answer and remind the reader that one does not eradicate all defilements until Arahat. First things first. We must get rid of wrong view of self first . I feel that the vague aspiritions to become enlightened or "wise" that I had when I first encountered the Buddha's teaching have been focussed on loosening the roots of self-view. That is much more than enough enough to aspire to in this lifetime. Ph:> As you may > > remember, these temper outbursts have been a problem with me. ... yesterday I > took it as a reminder that these > > things are not in my control and fretting about it is just a > > hindrance. Seeing through to this lack of control may lead to more > > equanimity, which will make it less likely that it will happen again > > soon. > N: Lodewijk and I discussed before that people may also take it the wrong > way: O, just conditions, just accumulations, who cares. You did not take it > that way, but perhaps I should add a few words lest others have > misunderstandings. Ph: After posting in a quick way, I realized that some might interpret what I had written as "Well, I can't control anything, so let's just relax and enjoy or not enjoy what comes." A kind of shamelessness, or being "as bold and pert as a crow" as I think the Dhammapada puts it somewhere. That was surely not my meaning. There is shame (hiri) of what I have done, but I am not clinging to it and dwelling in it like I used to do. I think I used to see dwelling in shame as a way of straightening my view in a skillful way, but in fact it only strengthens self-view, because I was basing it on this ideal view of self that doesn't do that kind of thing. And when and how does shame become worry (kukkucca) which Manual of Abhidhamma describes as "worry or remorse of having done wrong" and is an unwholesome cetasika. It seems we dwell in kukucca, but hiri comes and goes more quickly. (Of course all cittas do, but what is it about worry that makes us gnaw at it like a bone?) So these moments of shame, wholesome shame. Just how do they condition better behaviour next time? No need to think about it, but have faith that in some way they do. N:> Conceit plays a big role in whatever we do. My important person, how > dare he do this to me. Ph: This is it exactly. How dare he cut in line! So silly. "My important person" - we are all VIPs in our wrong self-view. I thiink a lot about the eight worldy concerns. Actually, I wonder why they are not much more central in the Buddha's, why they don't appear more often. It seems that reflecting on them helps a lot in loosening self- view, just as reflecting on the three characterstics or the four noble truths do. Of course, this reflection is just intellectual for me at this point. N:>Or: how can I behave so ugly, that can also be > conceit. We have to consider the citta, there can also be wholesome shame. Ph: Yes, conceit is involved in the worrying I was talking about above. Wholesome shame is different. N:> should not forget the Brahmaviharas, I learnt that from you. It is a good > idea to say to the other cyclist (but perhaps you did) that you are sorry, > or to make amends. Ph: I thought it, almost immediately afterwards. Not as good as saying it but better than nothing. N:>To treat him as your friend, even when he was wrong. > Friend cyclist! When driving we do not mind when others pass us very fast or > do strange things. Just let them. Ph: I'm afraid that when drivers behave in a very dangerous way I think that they are owners of their kamma and think that they will only learn when they have an accident. The latter part isn't good. I should wish for their well-being and have friendly feelings. Some days I do. But at least knwoing that they are ownders of their kamma seems to prevent the arising of the urge to fight back and rid the world of bad drivers, which is such a silly thing to do. Thanks always for your encouragement. Metta, Phil 34637 From: Date: Fri Jul 16, 2004 5:13pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. Vis. XIV, 86, 87 Hi Nina, Thanks for your detailed reply. One last question, what is involved in repressing the hindrances? Does jhana citta do this or is it panna? How, for example, is sensuous desire repressed? The hindrances are sensuous desire, ill will, sloth and torpor, restlessness and scruples, and sceptical doubt. Are these manifested through discursive thinking? Is rupa not a hindrance? What about feeling? Larry 34638 From: Herman Hofman Date: Fri Jul 16, 2004 7:52pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Q. Vis. XIV, 86, 87 Hi Nina and Lodewijk, Hearty congratulations on your fifty-second wedding anniversary. May you have many more fine years together!!! En dat jullie de muziek van het leven samen mogen blijven horen :-) Herman 34639 From: kenhowardau Date: Fri Jul 16, 2004 9:29pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Entity / was: some caution and non-advice Hi Howard, ----------------------- H: > When it is said that all dhammas are anattá, I take that to mean two things: Every phenomenon, conditioned or not, is a) impersonal i.e., neither an ego-entity nor belonging to an ego- entity, ----------------------- Maybe I'm trying too hard to be clever, but it seems there is a difference between a dhamma's being 'not a self' (not an ego-entity) and its being 'empty of a self.' The latter is more meaningful to my way of thinking. It means, "There is, here, only a [fleeting, unsatisfactory] dhamma,: there is nothing more [that might be called a self.]" The former is less meaningful, it simply states, "This dhamma is not a self." What does that tell us other than not to call it by that name? What's in a name? What would be the harm in calling a dhamma a self? It might even be a beneficial exercise. It might be helpful to see that the self is born, lives and dies in one moment. ---------------- H: > and b) without substantial core. ---------------- If that means a core that carries over from one dhamma to the next, then, yes, anatta does mean without a substantial core. But if a substantial core refers simply to some part of a dhamma that arises, persists and ceases all in one moment, then, I would think, it has nothing to do with the anatta characteristic. ------------------- H: > In the case of conditioned phenomena, part b) is due to the phenomena not being self-existent, but arising due to the confluence of other (similarly empty) conditions. ------------------- I think it is imperative that we see a dhamma as existent. If that means calling it "self-existent," then that's OK. On the other hand, if we think there are ultimately no dhammas -- just a flux of conditioning forces -- then how are we ever going to directly see (experience) a dhamma? Against our `better judgement?' I don't think so. ------------------------ H: > In the case of nibbana, its corelessness is due to its being a mere absence - in fact, the ultimate emptiness. ------------------------ Wouldn't anatta be the core of Nibbana? -------------------- H: > The term 'entity' thus properly applies to no dhamma at all, as I pointed out in my previous post. There actually are no entities. Belief in entities is a form of atta-view, in my opinion. -------------------- There are no entities in the sense of "things that persist from one moment to the next." There are, most certainly, entities in the sense of "things that exist in the present moment" – namely, paramattha dhammas. Kind regards, Ken H 34640 From: kenhowardau Date: Fri Jul 16, 2004 9:40pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Abhidhamma Hi Herman, KH: > > Apart from your distrust for the written word <. . .> can you be a little more specific about this "chasm?" > > =========================================== H: > I don't mistrust the written word, I just don't think it will lead anybody to enlightenment. > -------------------- A subtle distinction that was lost on me. My apologies. :-) -------------------- But then again, I am also fairly sure that enlightenment a la Buddha is not actually what people are after these days. -------------------- I would say the same thing, but I am thinking of people who want to be seen as wonderful, enlightened super-egos. There is a lot of `wrong enlightenment' being sought after. ------------- H: > With regards to the chasm, watch this space :-) ------------- I am on tenterhooks! :-) Ken H 34641 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Jul 17, 2004 2:07am Subject: Zzz Zzz Zzz practice.... Dear Friends, --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Time to do my practice. Zzz Zzz Zzz ... > ;-)) .... Back in Hong Kong after flying into a ‘direct hit’ typhoon yesterday afternoon, unlike the other diverted flights. It required a little ingenuity to get home as the city closes down at these times and everyone had rushed home many hours earlier and there were no buses or taxis to be found. Having earlier checked our bags in at Meiringen (thx to the amazing Swiss bus/rail/air bag service), with lots of time to spare before a late night flight, we’d taken a circular route to the airport via a glacier alpine pass and broke up our journey further by basking in the sun by a quiet lake catching up on all the posts which Jon had printed out. I’d like to specially welcome any new members and just to thank all of you who’ve been posting and given us such great holiday reading with so many prompts for wise reflection. I look forward to getting back into posting action after the weekend -- I don’t have Jon’s skill to ad lib on the run at airports and bars . His last Zzz Zzz ones to Herman and Howard were literally on the run and in semi -Zzz mode at Zurich airport as we’d filled in our day so beautifully we were very sleepy and had no time to spare. When the bags last seen at Meiringen amazingly came through with the other bags at Hong Kong, I could see immediately he must have been in Zzzz mode when he’d checked his in more than 24 hours earlier, for there sticking out of its padlock was its mislaid key, just like a similar episode in Burma as he reminded me. Now, before anyone suggests this could possibly indicate any lack of sati (mindfulness ) on his part, let me champion the Zzzz school of thought which says that even whilst pursuing a habit of forgetfully leaving keys in bag locks on flights which surely tests the honesty of all bag handlers -- all have passed with flying colours to date -- there can be satipatthana even at these times and that it would be wrong to think one has to turn a leaf or rather a key or leave one’s Zzzz modes at home in order for there to be meditation in action. Looking forward to any Sizzly or Zizzly comments and hopefully I won’t be so jet-lagged -- my excuse for now-- when I next write. Metta, Sarah p.s. Christine, I swear we saw *and heard* a very loud barking deer trying to protect his ‘wife’ and young from us, whistling marmots, a black and white spotted bumble bee, a large herd of grey/brown cows with the strongest moos imaginable as they followed us down a remote muddy mountain track until they reached their calves lower down, while we had more than a passing reflecting on the Bahiya sutta and how ‘a cow with a year-old calf *collided* with Bahiya, but how Bahiya ‘attained parinibbaana’ at the time(thx Herman!!)***, goats of all colours and sizes, black squirrels and wild chamoix on a mountain top....oh and Andrew, lots and lots of cats, all well looked after.....;-) *** “Wherein water, earth, heat and wind find no footing, therein stars do not sparkle nor is the sun manifest, therein the moon does not lustre, therein the gloom is not found. And when the brahmin sage through sage-hood has experienced (this) for himself, then he his freed from form and formlessness, from happiness and dukkha”.(The Udaana,#10, ‘With Bahiya’ (Masefield transl). ====================================== 34642 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sat Jul 17, 2004 2:24am Subject: Re: Zzz Zzz Zzz practice.... Hello Sarah, Welcome back - you've been missed! Send some rain down this way - my house tanks are nearly dry. :-) Forget the barking deers, the whistling marmots (what's a marmot?) the spotted bumble bee, and the grey/brown cows and Andrew's cats - I've got something really serious to worry about. It's winter in South East Queensland - it's frosty, and the mice and possums have remembered how to shin up the trees into my ceiling - you know, Forsyth's Winter Lodge Wonderland. As well, Rusty the Dhamma (was that Damn?) Dog has managed to find a way to open my non- harming mouse traps and eat the cheese. (sigh) Are we sure rebirth in the Animal Plane is all that bad? metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- p.s. Any 'gulping' you-know-whats? --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Dear Friends, > > --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: > > Time to do my practice. Zzz Zzz Zzz ... > > ;-)) > .... > Back in Hong Kong after flying into a `direct hit' typhoon yesterday > afternoon, unlike the other diverted flights. It required a little > ingenuity to get home as the city closes down at these times and everyone > had rushed home many hours earlier and there were no buses or taxis to be > found. > > Having earlier checked our bags in at Meiringen (thx to the amazing Swiss > bus/rail/air bag service), with lots of time to spare before a late night > flight, we'd taken a circular route to the airport via a glacier alpine > pass and broke up our journey further by basking in the sun by a quiet > lake catching up on all the posts which Jon had printed out. I'd like to > specially welcome any new members and just to thank all of you who've been > posting and given us such great holiday reading with so many prompts for > wise reflection. > > I look forward to getting back into posting action after the weekend -- I > don't have Jon's skill to ad lib on the run at airports and bars . His > last Zzz Zzz ones to Herman and Howard were literally on the run and in > semi -Zzz mode at Zurich airport as we'd filled in our day so beautifully > we were very sleepy and had no time to spare. > > When the bags last seen at Meiringen amazingly came through with the other > bags at Hong Kong, I could see immediately he must have been in Zzzz mode > when he'd checked his in more than 24 hours earlier, for there sticking > out of its padlock was its mislaid key, just like a similar episode in > Burma as he reminded me. Now, before anyone suggests this could possibly > indicate any lack of sati (mindfulness ) on his part, let me champion the > Zzzz school of thought which says that even whilst pursuing a habit of > forgetfully leaving keys in bag locks on flights which surely tests the > honesty of all bag handlers -- all have passed with flying colours to date > -- there can be satipatthana even at these times and that it would be > wrong to think one has to turn a leaf or rather a key or leave one's Zzzz > modes at home in order for there to be meditation in action. Looking > forward to any Sizzly or Zizzly comments and hopefully I won't be so > jet-lagged -- my excuse for now-- when I next write. > > Metta, > > Sarah > > p.s. Christine, I swear we saw *and heard* a very loud barking deer trying > to protect his `wife' and young from us, whistling marmots, a black and > white spotted bumble bee, a large herd of grey/brown cows with the > strongest moos imaginable as they followed us down a remote muddy mountain > track until they reached their calves lower down, while we had more than a > passing reflecting on the Bahiya sutta and how `a cow with a year- old calf > *collided* with Bahiya, but how Bahiya `attained parinibbaana' at the > time(thx Herman!!)***, goats of all colours and sizes, black squirrels and > wild chamoix on a mountain top....oh and Andrew, lots and lots of cats, > all well looked after.....;-) > > *** "Wherein water, earth, heat and wind find no footing, therein stars do > not sparkle nor is the sun manifest, therein the moon does not lustre, > therein the gloom is not found. And when the brahmin sage through > sage-hood has experienced (this) for himself, then he his freed from form > and formlessness, from happiness and dukkha".(The Udaana,#10, `With > Bahiya' (Masefield transl). > 34643 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Jul 17, 2004 3:34am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Zzz Zzz Zzz practice.... Hi Chris, --- christine_forsyth wrote: > Hello Sarah, > > Welcome back - you've been missed! Send some rain down this way - > my house tanks are nearly dry. :-) ... S:Thanks for that..... I’m almost afraid to resurface in case I send anyone off into hibernation....;-) My mother was praying to God and Buddha for an end to the rain in Switzerland and just as we left the sun came out there, now water, water everywhere again here..... oh well, still sounds and visible objects whether wet or dry. .... > Forget the barking deers, the whistling marmots (what's a marmot?) .... S:another hibernating creature - rather like a cross between a possum and a rabbit??? From Google - Switzerland marmots, see a pic: http://www.ecs.soton.ac.uk/~km/pics/kirk/marmot.html ‘Marmot Trail Marmots are sociable, clever and cheerful creatures ... ‘ ..... > the spotted bumble bee, and the grey/brown cows and Andrew's cats - > I've got something really serious to worry about. > > It's winter in South East Queensland - it's frosty, and the mice and > possums have remembered how to shin up the trees into my ceiling - > you know, Forsyth's Winter Lodge Wonderland. As well, Rusty the > Dhamma (was that Damn?) Dog has managed to find a way to open my non- > harming mouse traps and eat the cheese. (sigh) > > Are we sure rebirth in the Animal Plane is all that bad? .... S: Well, we all know Rusty the D.Dog is the exception to many rules and may have led you to believe otherwise, but this is what is said in the texts. From Baalapa.ndita Sutta (‘Fools and Wise Men’, MN129, Bodhi transl): “There are animals that feed on dung. They smell dung from a distance and run to it, thinking: ‘We can eat, we can eat!’ Just as brahmins run to the smell of a sacrifice, thinking: ‘We can eat, we can eat!’ so too these animals that feed on dung smell dung from a distance and run to it, thinking: ‘We can eat, we can eat!’ And what animals feed on dung? Fowls, pigs, *dogs*, and jackals, and any other such animals. A fool who formerly delighted in tastes here and did evil actions here, on the dissolution of the body, after death, reappears in the company of animals that feed on dung.... ..... “Bhikkhus, I could tell you in many ways about the animal kingdom, so much so that it is hard to find a simile for the suffering in the animal kingdom.... .... “Bhikkhus, the blind turtle would take less time to put his neck into that yoke with a single hole in it than a fool, once gone to perdition, would take to regain the human state, I say. Why is that? Because there is no practising of the Dhamma there, no practising of what is righteous, no doing of what is wholesome, no performance of merit. there mutual devouring prevails, and the slaughter of the weak.” Metta, Sarah > ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- > p.s. Any 'gulping' you-know-whats? ... ....off for a walk on the ‘you-know-what’ path;-) ======================================== 34644 From: Herman Hofman Date: Sat Jul 17, 2004 3:52am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Zzz Zzz Zzz practice.... Hi Sarah, By coincidence, I was just doing a bit of browsing re the seven factors that lead to hibernation :-) You are not mentioned in the list at all, so rest easy. Hibernation happens for many reasons, ego mostly :-) I missed you too and nice to have you and Jon back. Herman It was snowing here this morning. It was a condition for me to feel cold :-) -----Original Message----- From: sarah abbott [mailto:sarahprocterabbott@y...] Sent: Saturday, 17 July 2004 8:34 PM To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Zzz Zzz Zzz practice.... Hi Chris, --- christine_forsyth wrote: > Hello Sarah, > > Welcome back - you've been missed! Send some rain down this way - > my house tanks are nearly dry. :-) ... S:Thanks for that..... I'm almost afraid to resurface in case I send anyone off into hibernation....;-) My mother was praying to God and Buddha for an end to the rain in Switzerland and just as we left the sun came out there, now water, water everywhere again here..... oh well, still sounds and visible objects whether wet or dry. .... 34645 From: icaro franca Date: Sat Jul 17, 2004 4:39am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Zzz Zzz Zzz practice.... Hi Chris: > (what's a marmot?) ------------------------------------------------------- An angry beaver of Northern Canada, where the marigolds blossom up...HAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!! ------------------------------------------------------ > Are we sure rebirth in the Animal Plane is all that > bad? ------------------------------------------------------- Perhaps it´s good, if you rebirth at Discovery Animal Planet Management... ( Sorry Sarah... I could ask you how about you travel to Meiringen with Jon. but I am in a light spirit today...Eenie Meenie Chili-Beanie, The spirits will speak up... but my pali studies will continue on and on) mettaya, Ícaro > > metta and peace, > Christine > ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- > p.s. Any 'gulping' you-know-whats? > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah > abbott > wrote: > > Dear Friends, > > > > --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: > > > Time to do my practice. Zzz Zzz Zzz ... > > > ;-)) > > .... > > Back in Hong Kong after flying into a `direct hit' > typhoon > yesterday > > afternoon, unlike the other diverted flights. It > required a little > > ingenuity to get home as the city closes down at > these times and > everyone > > had rushed home many hours earlier and there were > no buses or > taxis to be > > found. > > > > Having earlier checked our bags in at Meiringen > (thx to the > amazing Swiss > > bus/rail/air bag service), with lots of time to > spare before a > late night > > flight, we'd taken a circular route to the airport > via a glacier > alpine > > pass and broke up our journey further by basking > in the sun by a > quiet > > lake catching up on all the posts which Jon had > printed out. I'd > like to > > specially welcome any new members and just to > thank all of you > who've been > > posting and given us such great holiday reading > with so many > prompts for > > wise reflection. > > > > I look forward to getting back into posting action > after the > weekend -- I > > don't have Jon's skill to ad lib on the run at > airports and bars . > His > > last Zzz Zzz ones to Herman and Howard were > literally on the run > and in > > semi -Zzz mode at Zurich airport as we'd filled in > our day so > beautifully > > we were very sleepy and had no time to spare. > > > > When the bags last seen at Meiringen amazingly > came through with > the other > > bags at Hong Kong, I could see immediately he must > have been in > Zzzz mode > > when he'd checked his in more than 24 hours > earlier, for there > sticking > > out of its padlock was its mislaid key, just like > a similar > episode in > > Burma as he reminded me. Now, before anyone > suggests this could > possibly > > indicate any lack of sati (mindfulness ) on his > part, let me > champion the > > Zzzz school of thought which says that even whilst > pursuing a > habit of > > forgetfully leaving keys in bag locks on flights > which surely > tests the > > honesty of all bag handlers -- all have passed > with flying colours > to date > > -- there can be satipatthana even at these times > and that it would > be > > wrong to think one has to turn a leaf or rather a > key or leave > one's Zzzz > > modes at home in order for there to be meditation > in action. > Looking > > forward to any Sizzly or Zizzly comments and > hopefully I won't be > so > > jet-lagged -- my excuse for now-- when I next > write. > > > > Metta, > > > > Sarah > > > > p.s. Christine, I swear we saw *and heard* a very > loud barking > deer trying > > to protect his `wife' and young from us, whistling > marmots, a > black and > > white spotted bumble bee, a large herd of > grey/brown cows with the > > strongest moos imaginable as they followed us down > a remote muddy > mountain > > track until they reached their calves lower down, > while we had > more than a > > passing reflecting on the Bahiya sutta and how `a > cow with a year- > old calf > > *collided* with Bahiya, but how Bahiya `attained > parinibbaana' at > the > > time(thx Herman!!)***, goats of all colours and > sizes, black > squirrels and > > wild chamoix on a mountain top....oh and Andrew, > lots and lots of > cats, > > all well looked after.....;-) > > > > *** "Wherein water, earth, heat and wind find no > footing, therein > stars do > > not sparkle nor is the sun manifest, therein the > moon does not > lustre, > > therein the gloom is not found. And when the > brahmin sage through > > sage-hood has experienced (this) for himself, then > he his freed > from form > > and formlessness, from happiness and dukkha".(The > Udaana,#10, `With > > Bahiya' (Masefield transl). 34646 From: icarofranca Date: Sat Jul 17, 2004 5:07am Subject: [dsg] Re: Zzz Zzz Zzz Typo.... Typo...yawn... I could do better study English language, but anyway... The correct sentence is "Sorry Sarah... I could do better asking you how about were your travel to Meirireng with Jon, but I am in a light spirit today... eenie Meenie Chili beanie, the spirits will speak up...". And I will continue to study Pali too Mettaya, Ícaro 34647 From: icarofranca Date: Sat Jul 17, 2004 5:23am Subject: [dsg] Re: Zzz Zzz Zzz Typo of Typo.... Typo Typo...yawn... > I could do better study English language, but anyway... --------------------------------------------------------------------- I could do better studying English anyway... ( No! No! No!...) Mettaya, Ícaro 34648 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Jul 17, 2004 7:00am Subject: Re: [dsg] Every Paramattha dhamma can be clearly observed from experience ? Dear Tzungkuen I am just going through the posts in my inbox that came in while we were away. I hope you don't mind a late contribution on this thread! --- Mr Tzung-Kuen Wen wrote: > > Dear Dhamma friends > > Since many members in this group study Abhidhamma, I have a question > to ask. Can every paramattha dhamma listed in Abhidhamma texts can be > observed by everyone? This is a very pertinent question, one that will have a considerable bearing on one's idea of the 'practice'. > Ven. Pa-Auk Sayadaw of Burma is a well-known meditation teacher and > very learned in both Pali commentaries and Abhidhamma. Actually, his > meditation teaching is completely combined with Abhidhamma. > According to him, every paramattha dhammas, every citta and cetasika > including the bhavanga-citta, patisandhi-citta should be ¡¥really¡¦ > observed in meditation. (We only know the terms of Abhidhamma > intellectually.) He also teaches yogis to observe the namas and rupas in > the past and future existences in order to really understand the law of > Paticcasamupada. > I would like to know if anyone of you has any thoughts about this > question. I agree that in general we know the various dhammas only intellectually, not directly. However, I do not agree that all these dhammas can or should be known directly, by a person wishing to develop the path. To think that they should all be known directly would involve an idea of focussing on them all in turn at some stage or other. To my understanding of the teachings, it is not possible to come to know any dhamma directly by choosing to focus on it (I exclude here someone for whom insight has been developed to a high degree). Dhammas are not perceivable directly except by awareness or insight (the highest level of panna), and this means that they cannot be selected to be the object of (intended) insight. If this is attempted, then what seems like directly observing a chosen dhamma will not in fact be so. True awareness or insight is a high level of kusala that arises only by a complex and very occasional set of conditions. There is no suggestion in the teachings that enlightenment comes only when *all* dhammas have been directly known. According to the teachings, insight needs to be developed to the point that the fetters are broken (the fetters are the various kinds of akusala that bind us to continued existence). The overcoming of the fetters is achieved by seeing dhammas as they truly are, as anicca/dukkha/anatta, and this is the function of insight, but to my understanding this level is achieved without the need for *all* dhammas to be directly expereinced. That sort of knowlwedge is the province of a Buddha or the great disciples only. Of course, intellectual knowledge about all dhammas is useful and is a support for the development of understanding. But the arising of insight is not a self-directed kind of thinking, and both the time of its arising and the dhamma that is its object on any occasion are matters beyond our control. Jon 34649 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Jul 17, 2004 7:06am Subject: Jhanas for lay-people Hi, James --- buddhatrue wrote: ... > Friend Nina, ... > Please > allow me to gently remind you again that the Buddha did encourage > householders to practice and achieve jhana: AN 109 "The Rapture of > Seculsion": > > "Then the householder Anathapindika, accompanied by five hundred lay > followers, approached the Blessed One…The Blessed One then said to > them: > `Householders, you attend upon the Sangha of monks with robes, > almsfood, lodgings and medicinal requisites for use in time of > sickness. But you should not remain satisfied merely with this. > Rather, householders, you should train yourselves thus: `How can we > enter and dwell from time to time in the rapture of seclusion?'33 > Thus should you train yourselves.'… > Note 33: Pavivekam pitim. AA: The rapture arising in dependence on > the first and second jhanas. > > Here the Buddha states that householders who are lay disciples > should find the means to practice and enter at least the first two > jhanas. Obviously, a householder isn't going to be able to practice > meditation all day, everyday (like a monk does), in order to achieve > this; therefore, one must be able to achieve the jhanas with just a > few hours of practice a day…or possibly going on a brief meditation > retreat(s) to achieve the jhanas. The Buddha wouldn't tell > householders to do something that they couldn't possibly do, right? > > Please continue with your wonderful posts on jhana and jhanacittas, > etc. They are very informative. However, I believe that you should > follow the Buddha's example and encourage householders to achieve > the first two jhanas as a worthwhile and quite possible goal. This is an interesting point. However, I would not characterize this sutta as encouraging householders to achieve the first two jhanas, since it does not contain the direct exhortation that is found elsewhere in the suttas where the Buddha urges monks to develop samatha and vipassana. The exhortation here is to *ask oneself how the mental factor of piti (rapture) that accompanies the first 2 jhanas can be developed*. This I would take to be a reference to the development of samatha, but not necessarily the attainment of jhana (although I'm not saying jhana is impossible for lay people, as there are instances of this in the suttas). The Dictionary of Pali Proper Names** describes this sutta as being about 'the inadvisability of being satisfied with providing requisites for monks without asking oneself if one also experiences the joy that is born of ease of mind (evidently a gentle warning to Anáthapindika)'. I think there is much to be said for this interpretation. We should also not forget that Anathapindika was already a sotapanna. Thanks again for raising this interesting point. Jon **http://www.palikanon.com/english/pali_names/ay/anaathapindika.htm 34650 From: nidive Date: Sat Jul 17, 2004 7:15am Subject: Re: Zzz Zzz Zzz practice.... Hi Sarah & Christine, > "There are animals that feed on dung. They smell dung from a > distance and run to it, thinking: `We can eat, we can eat!' Just > as brahmins run to the smell of a sacrifice, thinking: > `We can eat, we can eat!' so too these animals that feed on dung > smell dung from a distance and run to it, thinking: `We can eat, > we can eat!' And what animals feed on dung? Fowls, pigs, *dogs*, > and jackals, and any other such animals. A fool who formerly > delighted in tastes here and did evil actions here, on the > dissolution of the body, after death, reappears in the company of > animals that feed on dung.... Yes, dogs do eat dung. I have seen dung-eating dogs, and they really love the dung. > "Bhikkhus, I could tell you in many ways about the animal kingdom, > so much so that it is hard to find a simile for the suffering in > the animal kingdom.... > .... > "Bhikkhus, the blind turtle would take less time to put his neck > into that yoke with a single hole in it than a fool, once gone to > perdition, would take to regain the human state, I say. Why is > that? Because there is no practising of the Dhamma there, no > practising of what is righteous, no doing of what is wholesome, > no performance of merit. there mutual devouring prevails, and > the slaughter of the weak." Mutual devouring & slaughter of the weak ... Watching Animal Planet convinces me of this fact. Watching Animal Planet can be an excellent means of teaching oneself about the Dhamma. Regards, Swee Boon 34651 From: Date: Sat Jul 17, 2004 3:27am Subject: Re: [dsg] Entity / was: some caution and non-advice Hi, Ken - In a message dated 7/17/04 12:29:43 AM Eastern Daylight Time, kenhowardau@y... writes: > > Hi Howard, > > ----------------------- > H: >When it is said that all dhammas are anattá, I take that to > mean two things: Every phenomenon, conditioned or not, is a) > impersonal i.e., neither an ego-entity nor belonging to an ego- > entity, > ----------------------- > > Maybe I'm trying too hard to be clever, but it seems there is a > difference between a dhamma's being 'not a self' (not an ego-entity) > and its being 'empty of a self.' The latter is more meaningful to > my way of thinking. It means, "There is, here, only a [fleeting, > unsatisfactory] dhamma,: there is nothing more [that might be called > a self.]" --------------------------------------------------- Howard: There is a difference, but both are important. For example, it is common for people, especially intellectuals, introspective (but deluded) people, and people who have experienced jhanas, especially the 5th and 6th, without being aware of the Buddha's teachings, to think of consciousness as a self. That, for example, was Sati's error, which the Buddha cautioned about. --------------------------------------------------- > > The former is less meaningful, it simply states, "This dhamma is not > a self." What does that tell us other than not to call it by that > name? What's in a name? What would be the harm in calling a dhamma > a self? It might even be a beneficial exercise. It might be helpful > to see that the self is born, lives and dies in one moment. ---------------------------------------------- Howard: No, it's not just a matter of name, but of meaning. And the central meanings of being a self at the Buddha's time, it has been said, were of being substantial and independent and (often) permanent. In any case, by a "self" was not meant just something that appears or occurs or even (momentarily) "exists", but something that has substantial and independent existence. No self is born, lives, and dies in one moment. Whatever "is born, lives and dies in one moment" is not-self. In fact, all dhammas are not-self. Conditioned dhammas are fleeting, dependent events, and nibbana is an absence, the ultimate emptiness, and not a self. In any case, it is *not* beneficial to practice thinking in terms of "self" or "selves". All conditioned dhammas are exactly that - conditioned and dependent, and thus lacking in *own* being. ------------------------------------------------ > > ---------------- > H: >and b) without substantial core. > ---------------- > > If that means a core that carries over from one dhamma to the next, > then, yes, anatta does mean without a substantial core. But if a > substantial core refers simply to some part of a dhamma that arises, > persists and ceases all in one moment, then, I would think, it has > nothing to do with the anatta characteristic. > > ------------------- > H: >In the case of conditioned phenomena, part b) is due to the > phenomena not being self-existent, but arising due to the confluence > of other (similarly empty) conditions. > ------------------- > > I think it is imperative that we see a dhamma as existent. If that > means calling it "self-existent," then that's OK. > ------------------------------------------------- Howard: I think that "existent" in the sense of actually occurring, is fine. I think that "self-existent" is anything but OK, but is a grave and harmful error. ------------------------------------------------- On the other > > hand, if we think there are ultimately no dhammas -- just a flux of > conditioning forces -- then how are we ever going to directly see > (experience) a dhamma? > ----------------------------------------------- Howard: There is a flux of conditioned events, not "forces", and it is certainly not easy to see these dhamma. When is the last time you isolated a dhamma? But I have not stated, nor do I state, that no dhammas arise. It is the *nature* of dhammas as "selves", as self-existent entities, that I am challenging and that I believe the Buddha challenged. Conditionality is a core teaching of the Buddha's. ------------------------------------------------ Against our `better judgement?' I don't think > > so. > > ------------------------ > H: >In the case of nibbana, its corelessness is due to its being a > mere absence - in fact, the ultimate emptiness. > ------------------------ > > Wouldn't anatta be the core of Nibbana? > --------------------------------------------- Howard: I find that to be nothing more than a playing with words. A "core" is a presence, not an absence. To reify nibbana is yet another grasping at "self". Relinquishment, relinquishment - doorway after doorway of relinquishment is what the practice of the Dhamma is, as I see it. Eventually, we must relinquish *everything*! -------------------------------------------- > > -------------------- > H: >The term 'entity' thus properly applies to no dhamma at all, as > I pointed out in my previous post. There actually are no entities. > Belief in entities is a form of atta-view, in my opinion. > -------------------- > > There are no entities in the sense of "things that persist from one > moment to the next." There are, most certainly, entities in the > sense of "things that exist in the present moment" – namely, > paramattha dhammas. ----------------------------------------------- Howard: But only so long as one realizes that such "existing in the present moment" is mere conditioned arising of an event, is this a useful view, as I see it. Of course dhammas occur - to deny it is to deny the direct evidence of the senses and is to adopt nihilism, but to grasp this occurrence as self-existence is to make the opposite error. ----------------------------------------------- > > Kind regards, > Ken H > > ======================= With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 34652 From: buddhatrue Date: Sat Jul 17, 2004 8:38am Subject: Re: Jhanas for lay-people Friend Jon, Jon: This is an interesting point. However, I would not characterize this sutta as encouraging householders to achieve the first two jhanas, since it does not contain the direct exhortation that is found elsewhere in the suttas where the Buddha urges monks to develop samatha and vipassana. James: By `samatha and vipassana' I am assuming you mean jhana. Do you mean the formulaic expression that the Buddha traditionally uses when he refers to the jhanas? Well, I don't know about that. Perhaps he doesn't use the same type of exhortation because his speech was being directed to householders. I am predominately going on the commentary to the sutta and the context (as well as Sariputta's explanation in the sutta). The commentary says that the Buddha meant the first two jhanas so I am going to assume that that is what he meant. Jon, I thought that you support the position that no one should question the commentaries?? Jon: The exhortation here is to *ask oneself how the mental factor of piti (rapture) that accompanies the first 2 jhanas can be developed*. This I would take to be a reference to the development of samatha, but not necessarily the attainment of jhana… James: Again, you are contradicting the commentary to this sutta. I thought I would never see the day!! LOL! ;-)) Jon: The Dictionary of Pali Proper Names** describes this sutta as being about 'the inadvisability of being satisfied with providing requisites for monks without asking oneself if one also experiences the joy that is born of ease of mind (evidently a gentle warning to Anáthapindika)'. I think there is much to be said for this interpretation. James: If there is much to be said for this interpretation then what do you have to say about it? As for myself, I believe that the `joy that is born of ease of mind' does mean the first two jhanas. Jon, please read the remainder of the sutta, where Sariputta reiterates what the Buddha is saying, and you will see that he was speaking very clearly about the first two jhanas. It cannot possibly be interpreted any other way. Jon: We should also not forget that Anathapindika was already a sotapanna. James: And?? (I am missing your point. Not only that, the Buddha's speech was directed to 500 householders as well, who may or may not have been sotapannas) Jon: Thanks again for raising this interesting point. James: You're quite welcome. But, please realize that this isn't just an `interesting point', this is an issue that is central to Buddhist practice. Metta, James 34653 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sat Jul 17, 2004 10:13am Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. Vis. XIV, 86, 87 Hi Larry, op 17-07-2004 02:13 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: One last question, what is involved in > repressing the hindrances? Does jhana citta do this or is it panna? N: Each of the jhanafactors that are developed in jhana subdue the hindrances. It all makes sense. It is summarized in Co to the Abhidhammattha Sangaha (T.A. p. 36): Pañña knows how to develop the jhanafactors, knows the right conditions, and when jhana is attained the hindrances are subdued, but not eradicated. When one emerges from jhana they arise again. They are successively eradicated by the four lokuttara Path-consciousness. Then they never come back. L:How, > for example, is sensuous desire repressed? N: See above. L: The hindrances are sensuous desire, ill will, sloth and torpor, > restlessness and scruples, and sceptical doubt. Are these manifested > through discursive thinking? N: I think the above quote answers this. Or not yet? Each of them has its own characteristic and manifestation. Discursive thinking which is kusala, which thinks of the meditation subject goes against doubt. Doubt about jhana, about kusala and akusala, about the meditation subject, and this is not tranquil, it conditions distraction; but discursive thinking which is kusala goes against this, it keeps the citta on examining the object. L: Is rupa not a hindrance? What about > feeling? N: Clinging to rupa is a hindrance, not rupa itself which does not know anything. It can just be seen, heard, experienced through bodysense, etc. At the moment of jhanas rupa is not experienced. The defilements bound up with them do not arise. In the highest stage of rupajhana there is no breathing. But the release is only very temporary. Feeling: this accompanies each citta. When feeling accompanies akusala citta with the hindrances it is akusala. But pleasant mental feeling that is a jhanafactor is kusala, and it opposes restlessness and worry. The highest stage of rupajhana is with indifferent feeling, this is more refined. Nina. 34654 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sat Jul 17, 2004 10:13am Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. Vis. XIV, 86, 87 Friend James, Thanks for your nice post. I know you do not like to be praised, but allow me to have anumodana dana, you should give me the opportunity for kusala. I was just thinking of you and mentioned to Lodewijk your lovely custom to address people with friend, using it as a reminder for metta, also when you do not agree. I appreciate this. Also Htoo is an example for me. He is not here now, he is away for two months. He keeps on writing what he thinks is useful, no matter there is response or not. He even smiled when another list asked him to remove his writings. Those are examples I can learn from. Now your good questions. op 17-07-2004 00:19 schreef buddhatrue op buddhatrue@y...: Quoted: < It is not a small matter to > develop >> jhana, it cannot be accomplished properly by practising just a few > hours a >> day. J: However, I have > noticed in a few posts where you have stated that jhana practice is > not meant for the householder, only for the monk. I have posted to > you about this before, but perhaps it has slipped your mind. N: I remember. Also Victor gave suttas about lay people and it was discussed. But your quote helps me to reflect again on Anathapindika's life. J: Please > allow me to gently remind you again that the Buddha did encourage > householders to practice and achieve jhana: AN 109 "The Rapture of > Seculsion": > > "Then the householder Anathapindika, accompanied by five hundred lay > followers, approached the Blessed One…The Blessed One then said to > them: > `Householders, you attend upon the Sangha of monks with robes, > almsfood, lodgings and medicinal requisites for use in time of > sickness. But you should not remain satisfied merely with this. > Rather, householders, you should train yourselves thus: `How can we > enter and dwell from time to time in the rapture of seclusion?'33 > Thus should you train yourselves.'… > Note 33: Pavivekam pitim. AA: The rapture arising in dependence on > the first and second jhanas. N: Yes, and Sarah or someone else mentioned more about the Co: about five wrong acts, such as killing a pig, and the disadvantages. When one misses when shooting one is depressed, and when one hits one is glad. The rapture arising in dependence on the first and second jhanas, is a kind of mental seclusion, paviveka. The Co says: sensuousness (kaama) in two meanings, namely the object of sensuousness and the defilement of sensuousness. As I said before, to whom gives the Buddha this advice? To an ariyan disciple, and Anathapindika is a sotapanna, he has attained the first stage of enlightenment. This is repeated by Sariputta: the ariyan disciple. He has eradicated the hindrance of doubt, but not the other hindrances. Anathapindika was very generous, but his possessions dwindled at the end of his life. The Co mentions unhappy feeling that arises when the materials that support dana etc. are not ready. He was giving while he did not have enough himself. It must have caused him worry. He worried that soon he might not be able to give anymore. The Buddha had a good reason to advice jhana to him so that he would have more kusala cittas, he wanted him to have rapture and gladness. An ariyan does not take jhanacitta for self. He may have had natural accumulations for it. Thus, he was not an ordinary householder, he was very special. And I think so it is with other laypeople in the Buddha's time who could attain jhana. Many laypeople had attained enlightenment. J: Here the Buddha states that householders who are lay disciples > should find the means to practice and enter at least the first two > jhanas. N: As I see it here he addressed Anapindika. We have to study each case and consider: was he an ariyan or not. He did not say: all householders. I think, Jon commented on this before. Ariyans, even sotapannas have developed a high degree of pañña and mindfulness, and this is most helpful. Also for jhana pañña must be so keen: knowing precisely the different cittas, when are there kusala cittas, when akusala cittas. This is already very difficult. Satipatthana helps so much. J: Obviously, a householder isn't going to be able to practice > meditation all day, everyday (like a monk does), in order to achieve > this; therefore, one must be able to achieve the jhanas with just a > few hours of practice a day…or possibly going on a brief meditation > retreat(s) to achieve the jhanas. The Buddha wouldn't tell > householders to do something that they couldn't possibly do, right? N: There certainly is a reason for his advice to this or that person. Again, we have to consider: to whom? J: Please continue with your wonderful posts on jhana and jhanacittas, > etc. They are very informative. However, I believe that you should > follow the Buddha's example and encourage householders to achieve > the first two jhanas as a worthwhile and quite possible goal. N: I think in this time it is different. Less ariyan disciples! After the jhanacitta has fallen away the hindrances come back immediately. I feel, what is the most important task to do: developing understanding that eradicates the wrong view of self. Otherwise one does everything, even kusala, for one's own sake. One takes it for self. And I realize: I know so little about myself. Yes, by reasoning, but not very precisely from moment to moment.I often do not realize when there is conceit, and it arises more often than I ever thought. I do not realize the countless moments of attachment, the subtle ones. But there are enough means to have kusala cittas with calm in daily life. Take the four meditation subjects for every occasion: metta (and I include also the other three brahmaviharas of compassion, sympathetic joy and equanimity), Recollection of the Buddha, Mindfulness of death, Foulness of the Body. Reflection on the Dhamma can also be included. Personally, I do not feel the need to attain jhana with these subjects, I have no inclinations. The sotapanna has such strong confidence that it can come naturally to him to reflect on the Buddha with access concentration, but jhana cannot be attained with this subject. It is too deep. Nina. 34655 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sat Jul 17, 2004 10:13am Subject: Re: [dsg] Got in a fight but all is right Hello Philip, op 17-07-2004 00:35 schreef Philip op plnao@j...: Ph: And when and how does shame become worry (kukkucca) which Manual of > Abhidhamma describes as "worry or remorse of having done wrong" and > is an unwholesome cetasika. It seems we dwell in kukucca, but hiri > comes and goes more quickly. (Of course all cittas do, but what is it > about worry that makes us gnaw at it like a bone?) N: The feeling is so unpleasant, and it occurs again and again. That is why we notice it so much, it is coarse thus more easily noticable. Say, lobha with upekkha also arises countless times, but we do not notice it. Ph; So these moments of shame, wholesome shame. Just how do they > condition better behaviour next time? No need to think about it, but > have faith that in some way they do. N: Satipatthana can, remember, it is guarding the six doorways. It does the job. Ph: . I thiink > a lot about the eight worldy concerns. Actually, I wonder why they > are not much more central in the Buddha's, why they don't appear more > often. N: The Buddha speaks in many suttas about loss: through death. Someone who lost wife, husband, grandmother, relatives and friends. Loss of wealth and possessions as a result of kamma. Praise and blame: he teaches not being susceptible to these, all over in the suttas. Also the Jatakas give many practical advices for daily life. Happiness and misery: the Buddha speaks about dukkha in change: what is pleasant cannot stay. > N:> should not forget the Brahmaviharas, I learnt that from you. It > is a good >> idea to say to the other cyclist (but perhaps you did) that you are > sorry, >> or to make amends. > > Ph: I thought it, almost immediately afterwards. Not as good as > saying it but better than nothing. N: Maybe next time there are conditions saying it, one has to conquer one's pride and say it too. Satipatthana helps. But when are you going to Canada? Have a good trip. Nina. 34656 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sat Jul 17, 2004 10:13am Subject: Re: [dsg]Mindfulness of Death Dear Herman (also Andrew, Ken H, Jon), Herman, how kind of you, thank you for your good wishes! We made a walk in the dunes and then went to a restaurant there. In that place we had our wedding dejeuner 52 years ago. We had laughter when making photos, but mindfulness of death was not absent. It gives pains but one should not evade reality. We memorized that most people who were present then are dead now, including my mother, brother and grandmother. We said that at that time we had no idea we would be sitting there again as two oldies. I said to Lodewijk, maybe this is the last time we are together here this year. Who knows? I was reminded to consider for a moment that we do not see a person, only what is visible and that we then think of a person. I said that this is so difficult to apply. Lodewijk finds it impossible to realize: there is no Nina, and he finds that it should be explained and formulated in another way. He becomes very emotional about this subject. I mentioned that we should not forget the Brahma viharas at the same time, these are directed towards persons. We then discussed Larry's questions on jhana. I think that the realization of the three characteristics, including anatta is the end of a long, long development. We cannot expect to grasp the Truth already. But, in order to start realizing the characteristics of nama and rupa, and their difference, one must already have confidence in the Way and the goal it is leading to. Thus, we must already have confidence in being aware now. Difficult points of Dhamma can be explained under difficult angles and it is helpful to hear other ways of explaining. Andrew and Ken H had a discussion, where Andrew was wondering about Ken H's explanations, he was wondering whether Ken went too far. Please, can you both help me now? I hope Jon can also add something. Lodewijk never likes it to hear about seeing and visible object, and not seeing persons, he gets very irritated. Herman, yes, we make music for my father and dog twice a week and have to rehearse for this. It helps him to get back to reality when his mind wanders. Kind regards and appreciation, Nina. op 17-07-2004 04:52 schreef Herman Hofman op hhofman@t...: > Hearty congratulations on your fifty-second wedding anniversary. 34657 From: Date: Sat Jul 17, 2004 7:01am Subject: A Resolution of Determined Effort Hi, Nina, James, and all - With regard to jhanas: I am no Anathapindika - far from it. However, in the past I have had a "taste" of jhana, I may have some inclination towards that, and, for several reasons including all the benefits of jhana stated by the Buddha plus private reasons of my own, I have made the strong determination to do all I can to attain and master the jhanas to whatever extent possible. I have realized that my now being retired, except for the teaching of a single course during the six-week summer session (which I may do every summer), affords me a wonderful opportunity that should not be squandered. I have set about doing two to three one-hour anapanasati meditations every day, except when impossible. And I am determined to maintain a great regularity in this, so that kusala vipaka may result. This practice will be "something extra". I will not be giving up other useful activities such as Dhamma study, ongoing mindfulness and guarding the senses, and regular physical exercise, along with all the normal activities of family and social life. What I will give up are worthless (and especially harmful) activities, and replace them with time spent in dedicated lay practice. I do believe that even in this age of decline, much progress can be made if opportunities are made good use of. May my determination falter? May my resolution fail? Of course! We are weak. But I hope to avoid such faltering, and my publically declaration of intent may help strengthen my resolution. I hope also that it encourages others! With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 34658 From: Herman Hofman Date: Sat Jul 17, 2004 3:04pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Zzz Zzz Zzz practice.... Hi Swee Boon, I agree with your post. And as I watch the news on TV sometimes, I am led to think that in the human realm mutual devouring prevails, and the slaughter of the weak. :-) Happily this does not always include the shedding of blood, but each one of us that earns their livelihood by means of the profit motive creates conditions all day long whereby the weak and inefficient are created to be devoured. Herman > "Bhikkhus, the blind turtle would take less time to put his neck > into that yoke with a single hole in it than a fool, once gone to > perdition, would take to regain the human state, I say. Why is > that? Because there is no practising of the Dhamma there, no > practising of what is righteous, no doing of what is wholesome, > no performance of merit. there mutual devouring prevails, and > the slaughter of the weak." Mutual devouring & slaughter of the weak ... Watching Animal Planet convinces me of this fact. Watching Animal Planet can be an excellent means of teaching oneself about the Dhamma. Regards, Swee Boon 34659 From: Herman Hofman Date: Sat Jul 17, 2004 3:22pm Subject: RE: [dsg] A Resolution of Determined Effort Dear Howard, I am very encouraged by your resolution, and by your gentle but solid public statement. May you feel the pleasure that is not felt. And please, keep sharing your insights. Wishing you well Herman -----Original Message----- From: upasaka@a... [mailto:upasaka@a...] Sent: Sunday, 18 July 2004 4:01 AM To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Subject: [dsg] A Resolution of Determined Effort Hi, Nina, James, and all - With regard to jhanas: I am no Anathapindika - far from it. However, in the past I have had a "taste" of jhana, I may have some inclination towards that, and, for several reasons including all the benefits of jhana stated by the Buddha plus private reasons of my own, I have made the strong determination to do all I can to attain and master the jhanas to whatever extent possible. I have realized that my now being retired, except for the teaching of a single course during the six-week summer session (which I may do every summer), affords me a wonderful opportunity that should not be squandered. I have set about doing two to three one-hour anapanasati meditations every day, except when impossible. And I am determined to maintain a great regularity in this, so that kusala vipaka may result. This practice will be "something extra". I will not be giving up other useful activities such as Dhamma study, ongoing mindfulness and guarding the senses, and regular physical exercise, along with all the normal activities of family and social life. What I will give up are worthless (and especially harmful) activities, and replace them with time spent in dedicated lay practice. I do believe that even in this age of decline, much progress can be made if opportunities are made good use of. May my determination falter? May my resolution fail? Of course! We are weak. But I hope to avoid such faltering, and my publically declaration of intent may help strengthen my resolution. I hope also that it encourages others! With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 34660 From: buddhatrue Date: Sat Jul 17, 2004 4:07pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. Vis. XIV, 86, 87 Friend Nina, Nina: Thanks for your nice post. I know you do not like to be praised, but allow me to have anumodana dana, you should give me the opportunity for kusala. James: It gives you kusala to do something you know I don't like?? Hehehe…just kidding. I don't mind praise as long as it is genuine and heartfelt. Nina: Yes, and Sarah or someone else mentioned more about the Co: about five wrong acts, such as killing a pig, and the disadvantages. When one misses when shooting one is depressed, and when one hits one is glad. James: Huh? The commentary also discusses shooting pigs? That is weird. I don't follow you here. Nina: The rapture arising in dependence on the first and second jhanas, is a kind of mental seclusion, paviveka. The Co says: sensuousness (kaama) in two meanings, namely the object of sensuousness and the defilement of sensuousness. James: Thank you for this helpful information. I will ponder more on the separation between the object of sensousness and the defilement of sensuousness. Nina: As I said before, to whom gives the Buddha this advice? To an ariyan disciple, and Anathapindika is a sotapanna, he has attained the first stage of enlightenment. James: Now, here is where you are wrong. The Buddha gives this advice to a group of householders, 500 householders, not just Anathapindika. Nina: This is repeated by Sariputta: the ariyan disciple. He has eradicated the hindrance of doubt, but not the other hindrances. Anathapindika was very generous, but his possessions dwindled at the end of his life. The Co mentions unhappy feeling that arises when the materials that support dana etc. are not ready. He was giving while he did not have enough himself. It must have caused him worry. He worried that soon he might not be able to give anymore. The Buddha had a good reason to advice jhana to him so that he would have more kusala cittas, he wanted him to have rapture and gladness. An ariyan does not take jhanacitta for self. He may have had natural accumulations for it. Thus, he was not an ordinary householder, he was very special. And I think so it is with other laypeople in the Buddha's time who could attain jhana. Many laypeople had attained enlightenment. James: This is a very interesting theory but the only way I would agree with you is if you chould show me that all 500 of those householders who accompanied Anathapindika were also sotapannas. After all, the Buddha addressed them all in this sutta and so did Sariputta. If this message was meant for Anathapindika alone, the Buddha would have taken him aside and had given him an individual sutta, right? The Buddha would often give suttas to individuals. He was tireless in giving the right message to the right person, even if it meant extra work for him. Obviously, this was a message that the Buddha wanted this general group of householders to hear. The Buddha would not have been duplicitous. Nina: As I see it here he addressed Anapindika. James: Why do you see that? He said, "Householders…" not "Anapindika…" Nina: We have to study each case and consider: was he an ariyan or not. He did not say: all householders. James: What? Oh my goodness, this is so simple! He was addressing that group of 500 householders and them only. He was not making a declaration about all householders. He wasn't giving a press conference on CNN or something! ;-)) But one can assume that what he said to those householders apply to all householders who are Buddhist; unless you can demonstrate that all of those householders were sotapannas. Nina: I think, Jon commented on this before. Ariyans, even sotapannas have developed a high degree of pañña and mindfulness, and this is most helpful. Also for jhana pañña must be so keen: knowing precisely the different cittas, when are there kusala cittas, when akusala cittas. This is already very difficult. Satipatthana helps so much. James: Nina, isn't it true that ascetics in the Buddha's time were able to achieve the jhanas and they weren't sotapannas? Didn't they believe in an eternal self and rites and rituals? Where is it said that one must be a sotapanna to achieve jhana? Nina: Take the four meditation subjects for every occasion: metta (and I include also the other three brahmaviharas of compassion, sympathetic joy and equanimity), Recollection of the Buddha, Mindfulness of death, Foulness of the Body. Reflection on the Dhamma can also be included. Personally, I do not feel the need to attain jhana with these subjects, I have no inclinations. James: Nina, you don't need to know the reason why or to even feel the inclination to do so. The only thing you need is faith in the Buddha and to know that he suggested/urged his followers to achieve jhana. Personally, I don't know all the reasons for why but I believe that jhana prepares the mind for insight. If the mind isn't prepared, insight won't arise. I don't know how jhana prepares the mind for insight but it must or the Buddha wouldn't have taught it so strongly. I have faith in the Buddha. That is enough reason for me to practice jhana. Nina: The sotapanna has such strong confidence that it can come naturally to him to reflect on the Buddha with access concentration, but jhana cannot be attained with this subject. It is too deep. James: Yes, I agree that jhana cannot be obtained with reflection on the Buddha. Nina. Metta, James 34661 From: Date: Sat Jul 17, 2004 0:38pm Subject: Re: [dsg] A Resolution of Determined Effort Hi, Herman - In a message dated 7/17/04 7:13:49 PM Eastern Daylight Time, hhofman@t... writes: > Dear Howard, > > I am very encouraged by your resolution, and by your gentle but solid > public statement. May you feel the pleasure that is not felt. And > please, keep sharing your insights. > > Wishing you well > > > Herman > ======================== SO kind! Thank you, my friend. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 34662 From: Date: Sat Jul 17, 2004 4:55pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. Vis. XIV, 86, 87 Hi Nina, Thanks, this is very interesting. I'll give it a try and see how it works. "N: Each of the jhanafactors that are developed in jhana subdue the hindrances. It all makes sense. It is summarized in Co to the Abhidhammattha Sangaha (T.A. p. 36): " Larry 34663 From: Andrew Date: Sat Jul 17, 2004 5:07pm Subject: Re: [dsg]Mindfulness of Death Dear Nina Our congratulations also to you and Lodewijk on your anniversary. I do enjoy reading your posts about discussions with Lodewijk because I invariably share his attitudes and difficulties of seeing the truth of the Teachings. I don't attribute this to the Teachings being wrong, but rather to their extraordinary depth and profundity. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > Dear Herman (also Andrew, Ken H, Jon), > [snip] I was reminded to consider for a moment that we do not > see a person, only what is visible and that we then think of a person. I > said that this is so difficult to apply. Lodewijk finds it impossible to > realize: there is no Nina, and he finds that it should be explained and > formulated in another way. He becomes very emotional about this subject. Andrew: I find that it suits my western upbringing to consider this topic by looking at rupa. I can easily accept that "my body" is in a constant state of flux - as particles leave and join with each and every moment of time. So, "my body" at Time A is truly different from "my body" at Time B - this is not to deny that there is some continuity (Pali: santana?). I can also easily accept that, after death, "my body" breaks down into its constituent parts and is recycled. Turning to nama, I see it too as a continuity of flux. Whilst we talk about "Nina" and "Andrew" and "Lodewijk", these are conventional designations. But like rupa, there is no point of time when you can actually put your finger on something permanent and say "that's me". Trying to find that "me" is the cause of dukkha. Nama muddles me when it is described in terms like "love" and "hate" because I associate these terms so strongly with a self. If I replace those terms with "more scientific" concepts like attraction and repulsion (in the way that opposite magnetic poles attract and like poles repel), I think I can better glimpse an impersonal conditioned process or flux. The intertwined nama and rupa *are* not- self and impermanent. That for me is the purpose of the Dhamma - not to get rid of "Andrew" or "Lodewijk" but to ever so slowly awaken me to the truth of what's going on. It's quite beyond my comprehension to know what a being is like who sees things as they truly are (i.e. a being who understands there are no "beings" as I perceive of them) - morally flawless and no inclination to cling at all. But I tell myself that reality has to win out. Just as my predecessors had to admit that the Earth wasn't at the centre of the solar system when their knowledge increased, so too one day I will have to completely accept anatta. Sometimes I wish that day would come soon - but that is just moha and lobha at work! "I" can't force anything. That's all a description of where I am at - and I am sure that includes lots of ignorance. Maybe Lodewijk can relate to my state. I am yet to master the technicalities of Abhidhamma but am extremely grateful for the opportunity to read posts by you, Nina, and others on DSG. Best wishes to all Andrew 34664 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sat Jul 17, 2004 5:20pm Subject: LISTING POSTS re 'Bhikkhu Bodhi:The Jhaanas and the Lay Disciple - Pali Canon' Hello dsg-ers, This is the complete article by Bhikkhu Bodhi on "The Jhaanas and the Lay Disciple According to the Paali Suttas", previously posted in twenty short divisions, with explanatory notes. Jhana and Vipassana practitioners may find it of particular interest. One of the conclusions Bhikkhu Bodhi puts forward in post 32497 below, is: "It thus seems likely that stream-enterers and once-returners desirous of advancing to non-returnership in that very same life must attain at least the first jhaana as a basis for developing insight. Those content with their status, prepared to let the "law of the Dhamma" take its course, generally will not strive to attain the jhaanas. Instead, they settle for the assurance that they are bound to reach the final goal within a maximum of seven more lives passed in the human and celestial worlds." Bodhi: The Jhaanas and the Lay Disciple According to the Paali Suttas (1) http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/33870 Bodhi: The Jhaanas and the Lay Disciple According to the Paali Suttas (2) http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/33898 Bodhi: The Jhaanas and the Lay Disciple According to the Paali Suttas (3) http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/33914 Bodhi: The Jhaanas and the Lay Disciple According to the Paali Suttas (4) http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/33943 Bodhi: The Jhaanas and the Lay Disciple According to the Paali Suttas (5) http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/33961 Bodhi: The Jhaanas and the Lay Disciple According to the Paali Suttas (6) http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/34058 Bodhi: The Jhaanas and the Lay Disciple According to the Paali Suttas (7) http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/34109 The Jhaanas and the Lay Disciple According to the Paali Suttas (8) http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/34139 The Jhaanas and the Lay Disciple According to the Paali Suttas (9) http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/34163 The Jhaanas and the Lay Disciple According to the Paali Suttas (10) http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/34171 The Jhaanas and the Lay Disciple According to the Paali Suttas (11) http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/34180 The Jhaanas and the Lay Disciple According to the Paali Suttas (12) http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/34183 The Jhaanas and the Lay Disciple According to the Paali Suttas (13) http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/34202 The Jhaanas and the Lay Disciple According to the Paali Suttas (14) http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/34206 The Jhaanas and the Lay Disciple According to the Paali Suttas (15) http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/34232 The Jhaanas and the Lay Disciple According to the Paali Suttas (16) http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/34241 The Jhaanas and the Lay Disciple According to the Paali Suttas (17) http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/34261 The Jhaanas and the Lay Disciple According to the Paali Suttas (18) http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/34268 The Jhaanas and the Lay Disciple According to the Paali Suttas (19) http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/34293 The Jhaanas and the Lay Disciple According to the Paali Suttas (20) http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/34297 metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- 34665 From: ericlonline Date: Sat Jul 17, 2004 5:38pm Subject: Re: Dependent Origination and Kamma Hey Howard, Where did you get 'subjectivity/obectivity' for namarupa? PEACE E --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, all - > > A "light bulb" lit up yesterday. I was thinking about the cycle of > dependent origination from the momentary perspective and exactly how and where > kamma fits into it, when the bulb lit up. I believe that kamma is related to > paticcasamuppada mainly with respect to two links, the sankhara phase, and the > bhava phase. It occurs to me that the sankhara phase, the phase of impulsion, > amounts to "conception"/sowing of kammic seeds, and that the bhava phase amounts > to "gestation"/reaping of kammic seeds. Maintaining the fetus symbolism, > upadana is a requisite condition for bhava just as attachment of fetus to womb is > needed in order for gestation to occur and subsequent birth of "new self" to > follow. From this perspective, moment by moment, mental acts of > avijja-conditioned cetana (i.e., kamma) constitute the planting of kammic seeds that only > commence ripening in the bhava phase when needed conditions including attachment > are in place. > So, the cycle of dependent origination as a samsaric process repeated > millions of times in a moment within the mind could be viewed as follows: > > Ignorance -> Kammic Sowing -> Subjectivity <-> Objectivity -> Sense-Door > Conduits > (Sankhara) > > -> Contact -> Feeling -> Craving -> Clinging -> Kammic Reaping > > (Bhava) > > -> Birth (of renewed Ignorance) -> Death and Decay [and the whole mass of > suffering] > (Jara-marana) > > Thoughts anyone? > > With metta, > Howard 34666 From: Date: Sat Jul 17, 2004 3:35pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Dependent Origination and Kamma Hi, Eric - In a message dated 7/17/04 10:20:48 PM Eastern Daylight Time, ericlonline@y... writes: > Hey Howard, > Where did you get 'subjectivity/obectivity' for namarupa? > > PEACE > > E > ====================== Rendering 'vi~n~nana' as "subjectivity", and 'namarupa' as "objectivity" is my usage. I gave a series of posts explaining this a few weeks ago. No one is "to blame" for it but me! ;-) A synopsis of the contents of those posts is given at the end of this post. With metta, Howard ********************************************* Ignorance-conditioned sankhara is a requisite condition for vi~n~nana, and that in turn conditions, in steps, all the remaining links of paticcasamupada, leading to eventual rebirth. But a living arahant, just as a worldling, has experience. If that experience is vi~n~nana, then that vi~n~nana is condition for namarupa, and that for salayatana, and so on down the line, leading to rebirth!! But an arahant is not reborn. Now, in fact, the negative reading of paticcasamupada is that with the cessation of ignorance, there is the cessation of fabrications, and thence the cessation of vi~n~nana, etc. Now, the Buddha had full and final cessation of ignorance, hence of fabrications, and hence of vi~n~nana. So, the Buddha, even the living Buddha, was freed of vi~n~nana. But clearly he wasn't unconscious! So, it seems to me that vi~n~nana must be *defiled* awareness, an awareness infected by the sense of self. (And that makes sense, arising as it does with ignorance-conditioned sankhara as condition.) It must be an awareness in which there is the seeming of a knowing subject, and, correspondingly, a known object. (A knowing subject is an "I".) It seems to me that patticcasamupada describes the conditioned life of a non-arahant and the mechanism for the arising of suffering in such a being. It also shows the means of escape from suffering by such a being, the breaking of the chain of dependent arising fully and for good, which likewise marks the radical transformation from non-arahant to arahant. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ It occurs to me that understanding vi~n~nana as subjectivity (i.e., the sense of a knowing subject) and namarupa as objectivity (i.e., the sense of objects known by a knowing subject) helps explain certain things not easily understood otherwise. One of these is the following segment of the 12-fold linkage of dependent arising: vi~n~nana --> namarupa --> salayatana If one wishes to interpret dependent origination not just in the 3-lifetime mode, but also in the "right-now" mode, this segment seems problematical. If vi~n~nana is merely awareness and namarupa is merely namic and rupic phenomena (in the context of dependent origination), why is salayatana given as consequence? It would seem clear that sense-door activation should only be a necessary condition *for* awareness, not a consequence of it! But now think of this in the following terms: Vi~n~nana is subjectivity, namarupa is objectivity, and salayatana constitutes the sense doors that provide the connection/conduit between the two. A doorway or conduit between two things is dependent on those things. Without subjectivity and objectivity, there can't be a conduit between them. And, in fact, this goes a long way towards helping one understand the "unraveling" aspect of dependent origination: From the cessation of ignorance (the propensity to I-making), comes the cessation of sankharic construction, from which comes the cessation of subjectivity, from which comes the cessation of objectivity, from which comes the cessation of conduits between subjectivity and objectivity, from which comes the cessation of contact, from which comes the cessation of self-oriented feeling, from which comes the cessation of craving, from which comes the cessation of clinging, from which comes the cessation of becoming, from which comes the cessation of birth, and death, and the whole mass of suffering. Every arahant, and most especially, the Buddha, went through this entire eradication process. But the Buddha still experienced, and he still felt. Is that a contradiction? I think it is not. In the Buddha there was no ignorance, hence no sankharic construction (in particular no self-oriented volition), hence no subjectivity and objectivity, hence no conduit between such, hence no contact, no craving, no clinging, no becoming, no birth, no death, and no suffering. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- And yet one more thing: In what way does sankhara serve as condition for vi~n~nana? If vi~n~nana were just awareness/experience, it is unclear why volition or other formational processes would be required conditions. But if vi~n~nana is subjectivity (i.e., the sense of a knowing self), it is clear, I think, that this arises due to ignorance-conditioned sankharic construction. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- I don't interpret the eradication of the entire process [Note: This refers to the cessation phase of paticcasamupada] as ending experience. What has ceased are the following: ignorance, ignorance-based sankharic construction (not the neutral volitions of an arahant), subjectivity and objectivity (not experience unpolarized into apparent subject and apparent object), the sense-door conduits, contact, self-oriented feeling (not impersonal pleasant, unpleasant, and neutral feelings), craving, clinging, becoming, birth and death and suffering. Don't forget that as I interpret it, contact is the coming together of subjectivity and objectivity via a conduit of a particular sort (visual, auditory, etc). When subjectivity and objectivity are gone, so are the conduits and the contact. But the six-sensory realm of experience continues. Experience as it actually is is direct and nondual, with there being no subject to be connected to objects - and without subjective knowing, there is no objective known. Are there still sights and sounds etc? Sure, but they are not objects of a knowing subject. They are, so-to-speak, self-experiencing; actually, they are merely "present". When the experience of no-self occurs, there is no sense of self and no objects either - but experience continues. When the items in the 12-link chain are understood as I have presented them, I believe that both the concocting direction of paticcasamupada and the unraveling direction make sense. ******************************************** /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 34667 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sun Jul 18, 2004 0:53am Subject: For those going on the India Pilgrimage in 16/31 October 2004 Dear Group, A little something to start us thinking .... Pilgrimage to Buddhist India http://www.buddhanet.net/e-learning/buddhistworld/pilgrimage.htm Map of India in the Buddha's Time from Ven Pesala's site. http://www.aimwell.org/Photos/India/india.html The Buddhist Archaeology of India by Victor Gunasekara http://www.uq.net.au/slsoc/bsq/fr_bsqndx1.htm metta and peace, Christine (definitely not excited) ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- 34668 From: Philip Date: Sun Jul 18, 2004 6:25am Subject: Re: [dsg] Got in a fight but all is right Hello Nina, and all > Ph: And when and how does shame become worry (kukkucca) which Manual of > > Abhidhamma describes as "worry or remorse of having done wrong" and > > is an unwholesome cetasika. It seems we dwell in kukucca, but hiri > > comes and goes more quickly. (Of course all cittas do, but what is it > > about worry that makes us gnaw at it like a bone?) > N: The feeling is so unpleasant, and it occurs again and again. That is why > we notice it so much, it is coarse thus more easily noticable. Say, lobha > with upekkha also arises countless times, but we do not notice it. Ph: How about sadness? It occured to me today that I don't know where sadness fits in amoung cetasikas. It is akusala, certainly, but all so natural. I feel sad every day now when I think of parting some day from Naomi. We will get old - if we're lucky- and get sick and die. This isn't a fear, really, just a kind of sadness. This is attachment, ignorance, all caught up in self-view? Again, the worldly concerns. Sadness has replaced worry. I don't worry about the future, or fear it. I just feel a kind of sadness. But I see it. It comes and goes. What is sadness in Dhamma terms? Actually, you needn't answer that, Nina. I would like to think about the answer myself. > Ph: . I thiink > > a lot about the eight worldy concerns. Actually, I wonder why they > > are not much more central in the Buddha's, why they don't appear more > > often. > N: The Buddha speaks in many suttas about loss: through death. Someone who > lost wife, husband, grandmother, relatives and friends. Loss of wealth and > possessions as a result of kamma. Praise and blame: he teaches not being > susceptible to these, all over in the suttas. Also the Jatakas give many > practical advices for daily life. Happiness and misery: the Buddha speaks > about dukkha in change: what is pleasant cannot stay. Ph: Yes. I suppose I was wondering why they are not referred to explicitly more often, and laid out in one sutta. I'm sure they are somewhere. I haven't come across it yet. But I will. But no worries. I am very busy in the Samyutta Nikaya these days. N:> > But when are you going to Canada? Have a good trip. Ph: Thank you. I'm not going until the 28th. I signed off DSG in the meantime in order to work on a juvenile novel (very spooky and gothic!) that has been on the back burner, but my interest in Dhamma is still all consuming. It is just about all I think about from morning to night. As Rob K told me, there is no use trying to stop that. Now it's the SN. Again, I really feel grateful that I acquired a basic, beginner's knowledge of Abhidhamma before studying SN. So much more rewarding that way, in my opinion. No need to reply to this, Nina. I may not be back here for a few days. And then again I might! :) Oh, and happy anniversary to you and Lodewijk. And welcome back Sarah and Jon. And congratulations, Howard, on your resolution. Metta, Phil 34669 From: Date: Sun Jul 18, 2004 3:53am Subject: Re: [dsg] Got in a fight but all is right Hi, Phil, and Nina and Lodewijk - In a message dated 7/18/04 9:34:31 AM Eastern Daylight Time, plnao@j... writes: > Oh, and happy anniversary to you and Lodewijk. And welcome back > Sarah and Jon. And congratulations, Howard, on your resolution. > > ======================== Thanks, Phil! And Nina and Lodewijk: My warmest congratulations to you both! May you have wonderful lifetimes together of love, devotion, and sharing of the Dhamma! With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 34670 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Jul 18, 2004 8:08am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Jhanas for lay-people Hi, James --- buddhatrue wrote: > Friend Jon, > > Jon: This is an interesting point. However, I would not characterize > this sutta as encouraging householders to achieve the first two > jhanas, since it does not contain the direct exhortation that is > found elsewhere in the suttas where the Buddha urges monks to > develop samatha and vipassana. > > James: By `samatha and vipassana' I am assuming you mean jhana. Do > you mean the formulaic expression that the Buddha traditionally uses > when he refers to the jhanas? Well, I don't know about that. What I had in mind is the following from the Sallekha ('Effacement') Sutta M. 8 delivered to the Ven Maha Cunda, (MLDB, Bhikkhu Bodhi trans): 18. "What should be done for his disciples out of compassion by a teacher who seeks their welfare and has compassion for them, that I have done for you, Cunda. These are the roots of trees, these empty huts. Meditate, Cunda, do not delay or else you will regret it later. This is our instruction to you." This (or a similar) passage has been discussed before and, if I recall correctly, the Pali term here translated as 'meditate' is 'jhaayati' meaning something like 'to develop the mind' and refers to both samatha bhavana and vipassana bhavana. As you can see, this is a much more direct and explicit reference than the passage we are now considering. > Perhaps he doesn't use the same type of exhortation because his > speech was being directed to householders. I am predominately going > on the commentary to the sutta and the context (as well as > Sariputta's explanation in the sutta). The commentary says that the > Buddha meant the first two jhanas so I am going to assume that that > is what he meant. Jon, I thought that you support the position that > no one should question the commentaries?? You are correct in that my interest lies in the texts and commentaries, and I am not much interested in speculation outside that. Please note that I am not disputing the commentary note to the effect that the term 'rapture of seclusion' refers to 'the rapture arising in dependence on the first and second jhanas'. However, there is more to the sutta than that! Consider the context in which those words appear: "You should train yourselves thus: `How can we enter and dwell from time to time in the rapture of seclusion?'" This is not the direct kind of exhortation found in M. 8 mentioned above. Like any sutta passage, this passage has to be read having regard to (a) the occasion on which it was given, including the particular audience to whom it was addressed, (b) the language used, and (c) references elsewhere in the texts. As regards references elsewhere in the texts, are there any other references you know that seem to encourage lay people to develop the jhanas? Without the full commentary I can't add anything further, but I am attracted to the explanation given by the Dictionary of Pali Proper Names that the sutta concerns ''the inadvisability of being satisfied with providing requisites for monks without asking oneself if one also experiences the joy that is born of ease of mind". Personally, I do not at this stage read the passage as an exhortation to lay people generally to develop the jhanas. ... > Jon: We should also not forget that Anathapindika was already a > sotapanna. > > James: And?? (I am missing your point. Not only that, the Buddha's > speech was directed to 500 householders as well, who may or may not > have been sotapannas) That's right. Unfortunately, without the full commentary we can only speculate. > Jon: Thanks again for raising this interesting point. > > James: You're quite welcome. But, please realize that this isn't > just an `interesting point', this is an issue that is central to > Buddhist practice. I very much agree with this observation. It would be nice if we could find some further sutta or commentary material on the point. Jon 34671 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Jul 18, 2004 8:16am Subject: Re: [dsg] Got in a fight but all is right Nina and Lodewijk, Phil, Howard and All --- Philip wrote: > ... > Oh, and happy anniversary to you and Lodewijk. And welcome back > Sarah and Jon. And congratulations, Howard, on your resolution. Like Howard, I'd like to thank you for your kind words, and add my congratulations and best wishes to Nina and Lodewijk. And to Howard, I appreciate your sincere committment to the dhamma. Cheers, Jon 34672 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Jul 18, 2004 11:49am Subject: Re: [dsg]Mindfulness of Death Dear Andrew, Thank you very much for your good wishes and for your post I find very sincere and helpful. I have printed it out for Lodewijk. He also appreciates it very much. Just now I heard something on my MP 3 that fits your post. A. Sujin says: It is good you stress that it is such a gradual process before we really understand anatta. Saying: there is no Lodewijk, is too fast, it can rebuke people. Then you say: Very realistic. Good to realize that we are full of ignorance. With appreciation, Nina op 18-07-2004 02:07 schreef Andrew op athel60@t...: .... That for me is the purpose of the Dhamma - not to get rid of "Andrew" > or "Lodewijk" but to ever so slowly awaken me to the truth of what's > going on. It's quite beyond my comprehension to know what a being is > like who sees things as they truly are (i.e. a being who understands > there are no "beings" as I perceive of them) - morally flawless and > no inclination to cling at all.>.... 34673 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Jul 18, 2004 11:49am Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. Vis. XIV, 86, 87 Friend James, You are right, the Buddha addressed also the five hundred Layfollowers. All I know is that the numbers of people, also layfollowers, who attained enlightenment, even the first stage, was very high. As I said, I find very significant the repetition of: the ariyan disciple, also by Sariputta. Shooting of pigs was just an example given in the Co to show the disadvantages of akusala kamma, it brings more clinging and aversion. Perhaps you did not follow B.B.'s sutta analysis about jhanas, you were away at that time. He found that it was not said that people should first develop jhana in order to reach the first and second stages of enlightenment. See Christine's post today! I go further than him, but that does not matter now. What strikes me always is the Buddha's great compassion, taking into consideration people's different inclinations. In the Co. it is often said, he thought of people's capacity of being led to enlightenment. I cannot see any rules in the suttas, that you have to do this first, then that. I do not feel like debating about jhana. We know ahead of time what people will say, don't we? So many posts we had already on jhana. Besides, I have to concentrate now on the next Tiika texts: lokuttara cittas and the Triple Gateway leading to enlightenment, and then plunging down again to sense sphere cittas, craving and the three unwholesome roots. I have my hands full. But an adventurous journey, going across all over to paralel texts and other commentaries. Nina. op 18-07-2004 01:07 schreef buddhatrue op buddhatrue@y...: >(snipped) > James: Now, here is where you are wrong. The Buddha gives this > advice to a group of householders, 500 householders, not just > Anathapindika. 34674 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Jul 18, 2004 11:49am Subject: Re: [dsg] A Resolution of Determined Effort Hi Howard, Lodewijk and I wish you all the best. I do hope that you do not loose out of sight the Abhidhamma you took up. I also hope that you will have the opportunity to visit Acharn Sujin and that you may join one of our India pilgrimages. Lodewijk says that even though he has great difficulty in understanding the fine points of the Dhamma he is always very much impressed by the holy places. Nina. op 17-07-2004 20:01 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: > > With regard to jhanas: I am no Anathapindika - far from it. 34675 From: buddhatrue Date: Sun Jul 18, 2004 1:54pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. Vis. XIV, 86, 87 Friend Nina, Nina: Perhaps you did not follow B.B.'s sutta analysis about jhanas, you were away at that time. He found that it was not said that people should first develop jhana in order to reach the first and second stages of enlightenment. See Christine's post today! I go further than him, but that does not matter now. James: Nina, the fact that you go further than B.B.- that you go so far as to state that householders cannot and should not practice jhana- is what I was disputing about. I have no disputes with B.B.'s article and I think it is a masterpiece of research and analysis. Importantly, he doesn't state that lay disciples can't and shouldn't practice jhana. There is more that I could say but I am considering your next statement: Nina: I do not feel like debating about jhana. We know ahead of time what people will say, don't we? So many posts we had already on jhana. James: Okay, that is fine with me. We can consider this discussion closed. Metta, James 34676 From: nori Date: Sun Jul 18, 2004 2:30pm Subject: [dsg] Re: On the topic of Sensation, Pleasure and Pain Hi Victor, Jon, Howard, and Dhamma friends, Thank you for your valuable feedback. metta, nori --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Hi, Howard > > --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Jon (and Nori) - > > > > In a message dated 7/14/04 11:29:49 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > > jonoabb@y... writes: > ... > > > Neither of these 2 options would be my idea of practice in accordance > > with > > > the dhamma. It is much more subtle and complex than this. ---snip 34677 From: Date: Sun Jul 18, 2004 5:02pm Subject: Vism.XIV 88 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) Ch. XIV 88. I.D. The 'supramundane' is fourfold (18)-(21) by association with the four paths. So firstly, profitable consciousness itself is of twenty-one kinds. [454] 34678 From: nori Date: Sun Jul 18, 2004 8:35pm Subject: Is sensual pleasure and stimulation necessary for a healthy life? Hi Dhamma friends, I was curious to know what everyones opinions were on this? It is a well known fact that infants that are held, touched, cuddled, caressed and gently massaged (A.K.A. - Loved) grow up to be healthier children with improved mental function and healthier immune systems. "...It is essential -- essential to their health and well-being. According to a research study in the 1940's, babies who were not touched and cuddled often died from lack of human contact. According to one renown child psychologist, touch stimulates the newborn's physical as well as emotional health and may indeed be necessary to stimulate the release of certain neurohormones and chemicals that promote health, sharpen mental functions, and build a healthier immune system." - excerpt from internet article The Dhamma - as taught by Gotama tells us that it is possible to be free from sensual desire; That one could dwell content in renunciation from sensual pleasures and stimulation. But then considering the necessity of sensual stimulation in infants and children I ask: ... is it ever truly possible to be free from the desire of sensual pleasure and stimulation? with metta, nori 34679 From: Andrew Date: Sun Jul 18, 2004 8:58pm Subject: Re: Is sensual pleasure and stimulation necessary for a healthy life? Dear Nori Infants deprived of sensual stimulation grow up damaged. Infants given lots of love and cuddles grow up to watch their dear parents age, get ill and die, and then do so themselves. Nori: considering the necessity of sensual stimulation in infants > and children I ask: > > ... is it ever truly possible to be free from the desire of sensual > pleasure and stimulation? IMHO the answer to your question is "No, not while one is in samsara". All the children you have referred to, loved and unloved alike, are in samsara. I note that the anagami (non-returner) still has- craving for fine-material existence; craving for immaterial existence; conceit; restlessness; and ignorance, BUT has abandoned sensous craving (kama raga). Best wishes Andrew 34680 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Jul 18, 2004 9:12pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. Vis. XIV, 86, 87 Hi, James --- buddhatrue wrote: > Friend Nina, ... > James: Nina, the fact that you go further than B.B.- that you go so > far as to state that householders cannot and should not practice > jhana- is what I was disputing about. I believe you overstate Nina's position here. I do not recall any such comments from her, only that the difficulty of jhana is greatly underestimated, and that the conditions for its attainment are much more suited to a person leading the monk's life than to a lay person. The development of samatha requires panna, that of course being a high level of kusala. Yet the generally held view nowadays seems to be that samatha is simply a matter of concentrating on the right object (such as breath). I believe that view is greatly in error, and leads to much wrong practice. Jon 34681 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Jul 18, 2004 9:21pm Subject: Re: [dsg]welcome and thanks Dear Sarah and Jon, welcome back, I am glad you are back. Thank you for your kind wishes, Nina. op 18-07-2004 17:16 schreef Jonothan Abbott op jonoabb@y...:> ... and add my > congratulations and best wishes to Nina and Lodewijk. 34682 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Jul 18, 2004 9:21pm Subject: Perseverance in Dhamma on zolag. Dear group, just an announcement from Alan Weller: http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Nina. 34683 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Jul 18, 2004 9:21pm Subject: Re: [dsg]thanks Hi Howard, Thank you for your very kind wishes, Nina. op 18-07-2004 16:53 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: And Nina and Lodewijk: My warmest congratulations to you > both! May you have wonderful lifetimes together of love, devotion, and > sharing of the Dhamma! 34684 From: kenhowardau Date: Mon Jul 19, 2004 0:06am Subject: Re: [dsg]Mindfulness of Death Hi Nina, ----------------- N: > Lodewijk never likes it to hear about seeing and visible object, and not seeing persons, he gets very irritated. > -------------------- Is that because he has been a diplomat all his life? I agree it would be good to discuss anatta and paramattha dhammas in a diplomatic way that didn't show indifference to people's feelings. And trying to find such a way is irritatingly difficult. ----------------- N: > Andrew and Ken H had a discussion, where Andrew was wondering about Ken H's explanations, he was wondering whether Ken went too far. ----------------- At our last Cooran meeting I said that, ideally, a person's first introduction to Buddhism should be an explanation of nama and rupa. I don't remember Andrew's opinion on that occasion, but Christine was singularly unimpressed. As I remember, she thought people would never be attracted to the Dhamma in that way: that there needed to be a conventional introduction, only after which, there would be explanations of paramattha dhamma. I think Christine would prefer people were eased into seeing their own, ultimate non-existence. Come to think of it, my comparatively brash, plain-speaking approach has never had the desired effect on conventionally minded Buddhists (and non-Buddhists). So I can't really recommend it. :-) Hopefully, I will learn a new method from you and Lodewijk; for example, where you say: ---------------- > I mentioned that we should not forget the Brahma viharas at the same time, these are directed towards persons. > ---------------- That sounds like a fair compromise. Fortunately, I won't be expected to actually practise the Brahma viharas at the same time. Otherwise, you might never get a word out of me. :-) Kind regards, Ken H 34685 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Jul 19, 2004 0:45am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Zzz Zzz Zzz Typo of Typo.... Oh Icaro!!! --- icarofranca wrote: > Typo Typo...yawn... > > > I could do better study English language, but anyway... > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > > I could do better studying English anyway... > > ( No! No! No!...) ..... You certainly keep us all smiling here, just like the clowns in Shakespeare's plays -- not that you need any encouragement from me;-) I was also glad to see that in the revised typo posts that you *TRIMMED* and set a good example.... Also interested to see in a post of Nina's that you're planning to meet Jon, myself and others in Bkk next January. I'll look forward to hearing any more about this over the grapevine too;-). The discussions are sure to be very lively..... Metta, Sarah ===== 34686 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Jul 19, 2004 1:46am Subject: Re: [dsg] Got in a fight but all is right Hi Philip, I’d just like to add a couple of quick comments as you’ll be going away soon. --- Philip wrote: > > N:> Conceit plays a big role in whatever we do. My important person, > how > > dare he do this to me. > > Ph: This is it exactly. How dare he cut in line! So silly. "My > important person" - we are all VIPs in our wrong self-view. .... S: Beautifully put....’we are all VIPs in our wrong self-view’ and in our self-attachments too. .... >I thiink > a lot about the eight worldy concerns. Actually, I wonder why they > are not much more central in the Buddha's, why they don't appear more > often. It seems that reflecting on them helps a lot in loosening self- > view, just as reflecting on the three characterstics or the four > noble truths do. Of course, this reflection is just intellectual for > me at this point. .... S: of course there are suttas specifically about the 8 worldly conditions: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an08-006.html As wisdom grows, gradually there is less susceptibility to them, especially with more understanding of kamma and vipaka. I’m sure these reflections are very intellectual for most of us at this point - I always relate to your beginner comments too. There is a little more under ‘Worlds and Worldly conditions’ in U.P. Maybe these posts are relevant: 28663 and 31026. The reason that there is less and less susceptibility to worldly conditions as wisdom develops is because what are taken for good and bad results are seen in terms of very brief moments of kusala and akusala vipaka through the sense doors , followed by the various papanca you were referring to before. So in a sense, all the suttas about realities appearing through six doorways are relevant to this subject and this is why I believe that with more and more understanding -- even at our beginner stages -- there is less and less conflict between our dhamma interest and study and worldly situations or relationships. As Nina said, the dhamma is about the brahma viharas now at home or understanding realities at any time including when we’re too busy to open a text or find our favourite quiet spot. Phil, I also appreciated your comments on Abhidhamma study (34354) and the analogy of the surgeon without his anatomy textbook. Also enjoyed the papanca ramble about the cockroaches and brahma-viharas...I think you’re picking up the essence of the Abhidhamma very quickly and I agree with your comment that ‘we can develop a “nevermind” attitude towards the aspects we don’t respnd to, and that developing this attitude might be wholesome’. Thinking it all has to be clear and realized is usually more indicative of present lobha than anything else, I find. Finally, as it rained and rained one day in Switzerland, we enjoyed your reflections on the first verse from the Therigata and put on our waterproof gear as we set off hiking saying 'Go ahead and rain'!!. > "My hut is roofed, comfortable, free of drafts; my mind, well-centered, set free. I remain ardent. So, rain-deva. Go ahead & rain." > In the commentary, it says the verse was uttered by Subhuuti, the younger brother of Anathapindika. He became an arahant and was chief among the disciplesin the development of metta and thereby chief among them for bring worthy of receiving gifts. Prior to the uttering of this verse, he had arrived in Rajagaha and King Bimbisara had offered to make him a dwelling place but forgot. Subhuuti therefore dwelled in the open and ‘because of the Brother’s dignity, the god rained not, so the people were oppressed with the drought and raised a tumult at the door of the king’s house.’ A leaf-hut was then quickly made for Subhuuti who ‘declared the absence of any danger to himself from without, or from within’. I don’t have the Pali, but as you say, ‘ardent ‘ usually refers to the 4 right efforts accompanying mindfulness, right view and the other eightfold path factors. I’ll look forward to more of your reflections and anecdotes when conditions allow. Have a good trip to Canada and I hope you and Naomi have a good and peaceful summer. Metta, Sarah ====== 34687 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Jul 19, 2004 3:05am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Monk, bail out this boat... Hi James, I’m glad you had a good trip to Alexandria and Sharm El Sheikh and appreciate your ongoing careful study of the suttas. --- buddhatrue wrote: > Friend Sarah, > James: Thank you for your efforts and I understand. I just hope > that you will understand my point that it shouldn't be difficult to > pinpoint this information outside of the commentaries. This is a > pretty significant issue. If the sotapanna does truly eradicate > jealousy, I think the Buddha would have said so very plainly. > Wouldn't it be very important for his monks to know that? I think > so. After all, if during the practice of mindfulness they ever > sensed the feelings of jealousy arising, they would then know that > they hadn't achieved the first stage of stream entry. .... S:As we’ve discussed, I think that many aspects of the teachings are spelled out more precisely in the Abhidhamma and commentaries. If one prefers to leave these aside, there has to be more reading between the sutta lines and this may be right or wrong. ..... > Sarah: In the suttas, a lot of the detail about stages of > enlightenment, enlightenment itself etc is kept to a minimum. > > James: How do you know this? Your implication is that it is > intentional. I believe that you have been conditioned to believe > this because the suttas don't give as much detail as the > commentaries by Buddhaghosa. .... S: I meant simply that there is a lot more detail in the other texts. Yes, the commentaries intentionally give more detail in these areas . ..... > James: Again, I think the eradication of jealousy is a pretty > significant issue that they would need to hear about. Why do you > think it isn't significant? Wouldn't it be a pretty clear benchmark > to determine one's progress? .... S: My comments here are only my reflections based on a very limited understanding - not any realizations. As I just said to Phil, I can appreciate intellectually that with more and more understanding and confidence in conditions and especially in kamma and vipaka, that there are fewer causes for jealousy to arise. By the time all doubts have been eradicated and there is complete confidence in the Triple Gem (at stage of sotapanna), there are no more conditions for jealousy to arise and one isn’t susceptible to the worldly conditions in the same way as now as all wrong view of self, people and ‘situations’ has been eradicated. Namas and rupas are fully understood. ..... > James: You must have a different definition for jealousy than I do. > For example, if you saw Jon flirting with a pretty girl, and you > felt upset about that, wouldn't that be jealousy? (Which I'm sure > wouldn't happen!! ;-)) I know that jealousy can be envy, but it can > also be of the type the Buddha described in that sutta. Hmmmm…now I > am not sure if we are both discussing the same thing or not. .... S: That sounds like an example of jealousy - fortunately Jon is not a flirt ;-) I’ve lost the sutta thread, but permit me to quote from the Dhammasangani, the first book of the Abhidhamma, and its commentary, the Atthasalini: Dhsg [1121]: “What is the Fetter of envy (issaasa.myojana.m)? Envy, envying, enviousness - jealousy, the expression and mood of jealousy at the gifts, the hospitality, the respect, affection, reverence and worship accruing to others - this is called the Fetter of envy.” Atth [373]: “In the expression of envy, envy at the gains, honour, reverence, affetion, salutation, worship accruing to others’ is that envy which has the characteristic of not enduring, or of grumbling at, the propensity of others, saying others’ gains, etc. ‘What is the use to these people of all this?’......The state of one envying is ‘enviousness’. ‘jealousy,’ etc are synonyms of envy. And the grumbling characteristic of this envy is to be understood of both householders and recluses...” ..... > Sarah: As you say, only an arahant has eradicated the last remnants > of attachment, but long before this, attachment to sense pleasures > have been eradicated and long before this, courser attachments, such > as those with wrong views conditioning jealousy have been eradicated. > > James: I am not quite sure what you are referring to. Attachment to > sense pleasures is eradicated in the non-returner; which I am not > sure I would describe this stage as `long before' enlightenment. .... S: Ok. An anagami (non-returner) has already completely eradicated attachment to sense pleasures which had been gradually worn away (like the adze handle simile) as wisdom developed through the various stages prior to this. By the time of becoming an arahant, I meant that any remnant of attachment to sense-pleasures is therefore long since gone. (of course this was all in the course of seconds for a very few for whom there were the right conditions and who’d developed suficient prior wisdom previously). ..... > Sarah: For worldlings like us it's true, but without wrong views, > the attachments are not so damaging and no conditions for jealousy > any more. Gradually the defilements can be understood and worn away. > > James: I don't follow your meaning here. .... S: To give a simple example: If we really understand that what we consider to be a great gain, such as a nice holiday or winning of the lottery, for example, are merely moments of kusala vipaka (seeing, hearing etc) followed by various tendencies to think in wise or unwise ways, then we won’t be so inclined to think: ‘What is the use to these people of all this?’ etc (as in the text example above) and more inclined just to have mudita (sympathetic joy). I discussed this aspect of mudita with my mother on holiday. When she returns home it’s difficult for her to tell her one remaining sister about any pleasant experiences because there is too much sisterly envy. We can see how envy and lack of mudita lead to not hearing friends’ and family’s good news. .... > James: I don't know where Nina explained about this. I will look > for the post later. .... S: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/33835 ..... >Frankly, I don't know if I agree with this or > disagree. I can see both sides of the issue. Mental states are > very complicated and I think we are starting to approach them in a > rather cavalier manner. .... S: More and more complicated than we ever realized - I’m confident in time that you’ll really appreciate the precision of the Abhidhamma. .... >For example, what about schizophrenia and > other emotional disorders? What about the subconscious? How are > these issues addressed in the Abhidhamma? To my knowledge they > aren't and that makes the Abhidhamma an incomplete model of human > emotion. .... S: In brief, there are disorders with the arising of all akusala cittas and we can see and test that these states change all the time. Someone diagnosed with schizophrenia or other disorders can be very ‘sane’ at times and those of us considered ‘normal’ can be very insane often. All the various tendencies and proclivities are ‘accumulated’ in the citta and we never know what mental states will be conditioned to arise at anytime - blinding rage or jealousy or strong metta or sympathy. This is why there is fire on our heads. I’d be happy to discuss this area further. Metta, Sarah ====== 34688 From: christine_forsyth Date: Mon Jul 19, 2004 3:24am Subject: Consolation Dear Group, What suttas do others value for consolation when one has a dear one who has died, or who is about to die? I am thinking of the verses if the Uraga-Jaataka, and though I see the truth they speak, there is little comfort there: "Man quits his mortal frame, when joy in life is past, Even as a snake is wont its worn out slough to cast. No friend's lament can touch the ashes of the dead: Why should I grieve? He fares the way he had to tread." "Uncalled he hither came, unbidden soon to go; E'en as he came he went. What cause is here for woe? No friend's lament can touch the ashes of the dead: Why should I grieve? He fares the way he had to tread." "Though I should fast and weep, how would it profit me? My kith and kin alas! would more unhappy be. No friend's lament can touch the ashes of the dead: Why should I grieve? He fares the way he had to tread." "As children cry in vain to grasp the moon above, So mortals idly mourn the loss of those they love. No friend's lament can touch the ashes of the dead: Why should I grieve? He fares the way he had to tread." "A broken pot of earth, ah! who can piece again? So too to mourn the dead is nought but labour vain. No friend's lament can touch the ashes of the dead: Why should I grieve? He fares the way he had to tread." metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- 34689 From: Date: Mon Jul 19, 2004 1:25am Subject: Re: [dsg] A Resolution of Determined Effort Hi, Nina - In a message dated 7/18/04 3:14:10 PM Eastern Daylight Time, nilo@e... writes: > Hi Howard, > Lodewijk and I wish you all the best. ------------------------------------------ Thank you! :-) ------------------------------------------ I do hope that you do not loose out of> > sight the Abhidhamma you took up. ------------------------------------------- I will not lose sight of this. I often read "abhidhammic material" in the suttas, especially in the Samyutta Nikaya, and from time to time I return to conditional relations and to material in the Abhidhamattha Sangaha (sp?). I must admit, however, to finding little delight in the Dhammasangani! ;-)) ------------------------------------------ I also hope that you will have the> > opportunity to visit Acharn Sujin and that you may join one of our India > pilgrimages. > ------------------------------------------ There's not great likelihood in this, but I appreciate your thinking of me in this respect! -------------------------------------------- Lodewijk says that even though he has great difficulty in> > understanding the fine points of the Dhamma he is always very much impressed > by the holy places. > ------------------------------------------- That's wonderful. I do think that the devotional aspect of religion is often given short shrift in Buddhism. It sets the heart in a useful and comforting direction - it builds saddha. ------------------------------------------- > Nina. ====================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 34690 From: icarofranca Date: Mon Jul 19, 2004 9:26am Subject: [dsg] Re: Zzz Zzz Zzz Typo of Typo.... Hi Sarah! > was also glad to see that in the revised typo posts that you >*TRIMMED* and > set a good example.... ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Despite some pranks having got a strong akusala pattern, smiling is a good medicine and a Kusala factor too! You see, I was just attending the MSN Office course's weekly lecture when I 've decided to post such pearls of un-wisdom, so much of a distraction... Don't worry! At least at my own life, Neither Abhidhamma or Spelling is defunct!!! --------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Also interested to see in a post of Nina's that you're planning to meet > Jon, myself and others in Bkk next January. I'll look forward to hearing > any more about this over the grapevine too;-). The discussions are sure to > be very lively..... ---------------------------------------------------------------------- - It could be in English, please ? Thai language will cost a bit of time to master up but Tourist's and usual phrases!!! (For Lonely Planet Survival series' sake!!!) Mettaya, Ícaro 34691 From: Date: Mon Jul 19, 2004 8:49am Subject: Re: [dsg] Got in a fight but all is right Hi, Jon - In a message dated 7/19/04 2:39:37 PM Eastern Daylight Time, jonoabb@y... writes: > And to Howard, I > appreciate your sincere committment to the dhamma. > ==================== Thank you, Jon. I especially appreciate this, knowing your position on meditation and on "efforts" in general. Most kind!! With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 34692 From: ericlonline Date: Mon Jul 19, 2004 0:31pm Subject: Re: Consolation This is a tough one Christine! I dont think one sutta will fit all occasions. I like the mustard seed story but this seems suitable for one who is in depression and not the anger or denial phases (aka Kubler Ross). Has the person passed yet? I have a very good hospice oriented article for care givers and the dying that I have found invaluable. I could email it to you off list if you like. PEACE E --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Dear Group, > > What suttas do others value for consolation when one has a dear one > who has died, or who is about to die? > > I am thinking of the verses if the Uraga-Jaataka, and though I see > the truth they speak, there is little comfort there: > > "Man quits his mortal frame, when joy in life is past, > Even as a snake is wont its worn out slough to cast. > No friend's lament can touch the ashes of the dead: > Why should I grieve? He fares the way he had to tread." > > "Uncalled he hither came, unbidden soon to go; > E'en as he came he went. What cause is here for woe? > No friend's lament can touch the ashes of the dead: > Why should I grieve? He fares the way he had to tread." > > "Though I should fast and weep, how would it profit me? > My kith and kin alas! would more unhappy be. > No friend's lament can touch the ashes of the dead: > Why should I grieve? He fares the way he had to tread." > > "As children cry in vain to grasp the moon above, > So mortals idly mourn the loss of those they love. > No friend's lament can touch the ashes of the dead: > Why should I grieve? He fares the way he had to tread." > > "A broken pot of earth, ah! who can piece again? > So too to mourn the dead is nought but labour vain. > No friend's lament can touch the ashes of the dead: > Why should I grieve? He fares the way he had to tread." > > metta and peace, > Christine > ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- 34693 From: Herman Hofman Date: Mon Jul 19, 2004 3:31pm Subject: Sabba Sutta Hi everyone, I was reading the sabba sutta as found at http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn35-023.html. It takes up 6 lines. I will take it upon myself to quote the whole lot. "Monks, I will teach you the All. Listen & pay close attention. I will speak." "As you say, lord," the monks responded. The Blessed One said, "What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas. This, monks, is called the All. [ 1] Anyone who would say, 'Repudiating this All, I will describe another,' if questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for his statement, would be unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put to grief. Why? Because it lies beyond range." It is followed by the translators note, which is at least five times as long. It starts of with: " The Commentary's treatment of this discourse is very peculiar. To begin with, it delineates three other "All's" in addition to the one defined here, one of them supposedly larger in scope than the one defined here: the Allness of the Buddha's omniscience (literally, All-knowingness). This, despite the fact that the discourse says that the description of such an all lies beyond the range of explanation." What, then, differentiates speculation in the commentaries from non-commentarial speculation? Herman 34694 From: Herman Hofman Date: Mon Jul 19, 2004 4:20pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Monk, bail out this boat.(Warning-contains sexual references) Hi James, Sarah, everyone, .... >For example, what about schizophrenia and > other emotional disorders? What about the subconscious? How are > these issues addressed in the Abhidhamma? To my knowledge they > aren't and that makes the Abhidhamma an incomplete model of human > emotion. .... I have been following the discussion with interest. I'd like to throw an additional quandary into the ring. To the best of my scant knowledge there is no reference to orgasm in the Abhidhamma. Yet it is the most powerful, consuming feeling, and the search for sexual release is a cornerstone of human behaviour. I have read some explanations which reduce orgasm down to lobha. I found this unsatisfactory precisely because it is reductionist to the max. Now reductionism is the view that the nature of complex things can always be reduced to (explained by) simpler or more fundamental things. This view ignores the reality that at a certain level of quantitative change, there is qualitative change. Nor does it allow for the reality that a combination of elemental things can have properties not found in those elements. The waves of the ocean are not understood in terms of the properties of a single drop of water. And birds don't build their nests on mustard seeds. Herman 34695 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Jul 19, 2004 9:29pm Subject: Re: [dsg]Mindfulness of Death Dear Ken, Thank you for writing. op 19-07-2004 09:06 schreef kenhowardau op kenhowardau@y...: > At our last Cooran meeting I said that, ideally, a person's first > introduction to Buddhism should be an explanation of nama and rupa. N: Interesting, A. Sujin once said the same. She thinks it is more simple that way. And she started that way with me long ago, and I took to it. She talked immediately at the first time in her house about nama and rupa. It is just that people are all different. They may like to talk first about their situations, and then the time may be ripe for nama and rupa, what do you think? As to the Brahma viharas, Lodewijk says, but we are living in this world, we cannot just say Nina and Lodewijk do not exist. The answer is: we are always thinking of persons and instead of thinking with akusala citta we can think with metta, compassion, mudita or equanimity. This will help our social life. There are no contradictions. And the thinking with metta is not us; satipatthana helps not to take kusala or akusala for self. But Andrew's post helped, we cannot expect yet to clearly comprehend anatta. We cling to kusala and to its result, take it for self. i heard some very good passages, just now from A. Sujin: Nina. 34696 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Jul 19, 2004 9:29pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Consolation Dear Chrisitine, I especially like these stanzas, they can be found also elsewhere. It reminds that nobody asks to be born, kamma caused it, and it is so short. What do we know about anybody's past lives. Life just comes and goes. Unbidden soon to go: it depends on kamma how long a life of a dear one can last. Why do we expect a life to last forever. I find it consoling. It is just a flash, my life, a dear one's life. But let us make the most of this short time, spend it well with the development of understanding and help others as well. Nina. op 19-07-2004 12:24 schreef christine_forsyth op cforsyth@v...: > "Uncalled he hither came, unbidden soon to go; > E'en as he came he went. What cause is here for woe? 34697 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Jul 20, 2004 1:11am Subject: Re: [dsg] Consolation Dear Christine, --- christine_forsyth wrote: > Dear Group, > > What suttas do others value for consolation when one has a dear one > who has died, or who is about to die? .... Several helpful posts and sutta references are included in the section under ‘Death’ in Useful Posts -- I'm sure there is a very helpful one from Ven Dhammapiyo. I started looking, but didn't get past the first one of Jon’s with reference to Uttaraa, Nandamaataa, who was described as chief among the lay women disciples in 'meditative power' (jhaayiinam) in AN, Bk of Ones, ch1V and who showed such great kindness and compassion to Sirima, the beautiful courtesan, when the latter poured hot ghee over her head. Jon wrote: >I just happend to come across reference to the sutta about Nanda's mother (Gradual Sayings IV, Book of the Sevens). She witnessed her son being taken by force and slain. But she had attained to a level of enlightenment where all attachment to sensuous objects had been eradicated and, amazingly, she had no conditions for aversion, no "disquietness of heart". The corollary of this, of course, is that we ordinary folk are bound to be disturbed by the death of someone whom we knew well. this simply reflects our attachment and other akusala tendencies. So it is an opportunity to know these tendencies more clearly.< I find the sutta he refers to and the story about her in several places** very inspiring. Here is a link to and an extract from the sutta he refers to: http://www.metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/4Anguttara-Nikaya/Anguttara4/7-sattakanipata/005-mahayannavaggo-e.htm 10. Nandamàtàsutta- The female lay disciple Nanda “Venerable sir, I had a single loved son Nanda, for some reason or other the king pulled him away, oppressed him and killed him. Venerable sir, when my child was pulled away, oppressed, and killed, I do not recall of the least change in my mind". “It is wonderful and surprising Nandamata, your development and purity of mind." “Venerable sir, that is not all, there is another wonderful and surprising thing. Venerable sir, my husband died and was born with a certain clan of demons. Now he appears to me as he was in his last birth. On account of that, I do not recall of the least change in my mind". [PTS: “I knew no disquietness (cittassa a~n~nathatta.n) of heart”] “It is wonderful and surprising Nandamata, your development and purity of mind." “Venerable sir, that is not all, there is another wonderful and surprising thing. Venerable sir, from the day I was brought by my husband as a child, I do not recall of an instance of going beyond his mental state, I have never searched outside bodily pleasures". [PTS: “I know of no trespass even in thought against my husband, how then in deed?”] “It is wonderful and surprising Nandamata, your development and purity of mind." “Venerable sir, that is not all, there is another wonderful and surprising thing. Venerable sir, from the day I confessed to be a female lay disciple I do not recall of trespessing the least of the precepts.” [According to Uttaraa’s Vimana*, she was already a sotapanna before she was married]. “It is wonderful and surprising Nandamata, your development and purity of mind." “Venerable sir, that is not all, there is another wonderful and surprising thing. Venerable sir, when I desire, secluding my mind from sensual desires and demeritorious things, with thoughts and discursive thoughts and with joy and pleasantness born of seclusion I abide in the first higher state of mind. Overcoming thoughts and discursive thoughts, the mind in one point, internally appeased with joy and pleasantness born of concentration I abide in the second higher state of mind. With equanimity to joy and disenchantment, I experience pleasantness and mindful awareness with the body and attain to the third higher state of mind, to this the noble ones say, mindfully abiding in pleasantness with equanimity. Dispelling pleasantness and unpleasantness and earlier having dispelled pleasure and displeasure, cleaning the mind so that it is without unpleasantness and pleasàntness I attain to the fourth higher state of mind" [an example of a female lay follower who was adept in the jhanas]. ”It is wonderful and surprising Nandamata, your development and purity of mind." “Venerable sir, that is not all, there is another wonderful and surprising thing. Venerable sir, I do not see a single of these bonds binding to the sensual world in me, according to the way declared by The Blessed One."[I believe she was a sakadagami rather than an anagami*] “It is wonderful and surprising Nandamata, your development and purity of mind." “Then venerable Sariputta advising, inciting and making the heart light of the female lay disciple Nanda with a talk got up and went away.” ***** I hope others will also share suttas they find inspiring at times of loss and perhaps you may also share any further reflections you find meaningful, Chris. With metta, Sarah * In the commentary on the Vimaana Stories (PTS, Masefield transl), under Uttaraa’s Vimaana, we read about how it was Uttaraa who arranged and paid for Sirimaa to ‘attend’ to her husband’s needs for half a month so that she could give alms to the Sangha and listen to the Dhamma from the Buddha. Later when she took Sirimaa to listen to the Buddha, Uttaraa became a sakadagami and Sirima and everyone else became sotapannas. Uttaraa, we are told, was reborn in the Tavatimsa realm. When Mogallana asked her about her previous deeds, she mentions: 1. No envy, meanness or spitefulness; without anger, obedient to her husband, diligent on Uposatha 2. Always restrained in the precepts, conversant in the Ariyan Truths 3. As a result of her morality and so on, happy and with shining complexion etc, taking refuge in the Triple Gem ..... **See entry under ‘Uttará Nandamátá.’ for a summary and further references of her inspiring story: http://www.palikanon.com/english/pali_names/dic_idx.html ===================================== 34698 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Jul 20, 2004 1:27am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Consolation Hi Eric (and others New to the List) Welcome to DSG! --- ericlonline wrote: > This is a tough one Christine! I dont think one sutta will fit all > occasions. I like the mustard seed story but this seems suitable for > one who is in depression and not the anger or denial phases (aka > Kubler Ross). .... I think this is an astute comment. As you say, we're not always in the right frame of mind to appreciate some suttas and what is appropriate for one occasion or one friend may not be for another. .... > Has the person passed yet? I have a very good hospice oriented > article for care givers and the dying that I have found invaluable. > I could email it to you off list if you like. ... Maybe if it's on line you can just give a link here. I'd be very glad if you would kindly let us know a little more about your interest and background with regard to the Buddhism and also caring in general. I hope you find the list useful and look forward to your further comments. The posts under 'Death' which I just mentioned to Christine can be found here: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/Useful_Posts If any Newbies to DSG are feeling overwhelmed by the Pali, you may like to print out this simple Pali glossary to have handy as well: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/Glossary_of_pali_terms The Guidelines can also be found in the files if anyone needs to review them anytime;-). > PEACE > > E .... Metta, Sarah p.s we have another luriking good friend called Erik. Erik, hopefully having Eric on board will remind us to spell your name correctly -- hope you're doing well;-). ===================== 34699 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Jul 20, 2004 2:01am Subject: Re: [dsg] hello Hi Gislene, A belated welcome to you from me as well. --- Gis Lene wrote: > Dear friends. > > My name is Gislene. I am new in this list. > I am brazilian, living in São Paulo and I am very very interested in > learning and practice buddhism. I think it is possible to use these > principles, philosophy and psychology in many areas. So I want to learn > about that and first of all learn and practice that principles in my own > > life. ... This was a great intro - we now have quite a group of Brazilian members and as you may have noted some are quite the most colourful around here;-). One of these is Michael who runs a Portuguese website. Let me know if you need a link. (Has anyone heard from Michael recently? He mentioned to me he'd be back around the end of April ready for more discussion on the Kathavatthu......but no sign as yet). <...> > Sorry for my english and for my questions, but I am just starting in all > the > meaning of that word has. ... Both are excellent - all questions on the teachings are most welcome and the more basic the better often. Pls just ignore any posts that seem too technical or detailed for now and keep asking your own qus. You or any other newbies may also like to look under posts: "New to the list and New to the Dhamma" at: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/Useful_Posts I also thought you made good comments in your post to Ken O about the way to live in the world. Let us know how you find the books and sites that were recommended to you as well. I forget if anyone recommended Nina's book, 'Buddhism in Daily Life' which can be found on line : http://www.abhidhamma.org/ or http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Metta, Sarah ======= 34700 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Jul 20, 2004 2:35am Subject: Re: [dsg] Arupa consciousness Dear KK, --- buddhaward wrote: > Dear Nina > > I am a korean buddhist in Japan. > > Sometimes I enjoy visiting this group though I do not know well about > Abhidhamma. ... S: I was very glad that you let us know and your questions to Nina were all excellent ones, I thought. Nina already gave clear answers, but as I have your post in front of me, let me give a few more of my own comments too. especially as your questions touch on other current threads: ... > What do you think Buddha's intentions were behind when Bhuddha > seemed to exhort his deciples to develop Jhanas as in suttas? .... S: I think the Buddha stessed the value in all kinds of kusala and encouraged the understanding and development of whatever is possible according to conditions and inclinations. Throughout, he stresses that all conditioned realities, including jhana states, are anicca, dukkha and anatta - not worth clinging to. ..... > Is such an intention itself to develop the indriyas, faculties, of > confidence, energy,mindfulness, concentration and pañña derived from > our "wish for another situation and another reality" ? .... S: This was a good question. Only pa~n~naa can know the different cittas and intentions. As you suggest, if there is a "wish for another situation and another reality", it’s quite useless, even if this wish is for an exalted state such as jhana or enlightenment. The indriyas mentioned above can only be developed with detachment to what appears now. .... > And Could you please explain how do you think we should develop them ? ... S: I liked Nina’s reply and particularly: “Also direct understanding of non-self, it has its own conditions for its arising. If we do no obstruct its arising by wishing it to develop fast, by forcing it, trying to direct it, it can grown in its own time. We need patience and endurance........Right understanding of the realities appearing in our life and learning to see them as only conditioned dhammas, this is the way that those faculties can become stronger.” I’m looking forward to any of your further feedback to her post or further questions, KK. Whereabouts in Japan do you live? Philip (about to go on a long holiday) lives in Tokyo and RobK in the south. Metta, Sarah p.s We also have another lurking friend here called KKT, so hope we don’t get your initials mixed up anytime;-) KKT, hope to hear from you soon - you’re missed! ====== 34701 From: Philip Date: Tue Jul 20, 2004 3:55am Subject: Re: Consolation Hi Christine, and all. When I was reading "Buddhism in Daily Life" I came across this verse from the Therigata (the hymns of the elder nuns): "Sleep softly, little Sturdy, take your rest At ease, wrapt in the robe you yourself have made Stilled are the passions that would rage within Withered as potherbs in the oven dried." I took this as consoling - I think about death every day. Now, there is probably wrong understanding on my part here, because the "sleep softly" part does not reflect the truth of what's involved in the death and rebirth consciousness moments, but perhaps because of western cultural accumulations its comforting in an RIP kind of way. Also, I don't know what the "Sturdy" is - the name of the nun in question? She recited the verse to mark her awakening as a result of burning some food while cooking. In any case, I found it comforting. Perhaps a notion of being able to lie down at peace with our good deeds. Rob K mentionned in our talk that there was a tradition of reciting a person's good deeds to them on the deathbed. "The robe that you yourself have made" feels comforting though of course we know that the robe can be full of nasty surprises! Another one that seems comforting for couples to find consolation is AN IV 55, "Living in Tune." "Husband and wife, both of them having convictionn, being responsive, being restrained, living by the Dhamma, addressing each other with loving words: they benefit in manifold way. To them comes bliss. THeir enemies are dejected when both are in tune with virtue. Having follow the Dhamma here in this world, both in tune in precepts and practices, they delight in the world of the devas, enjoying the pleasures they desire." I have my doubts about this one - it feels too cozy. There is an implication of eternalism in it, in my opinion. Isn't it suggesting that they can continue to enjoy each other's company in lives to come? I've probably misunderstood it. Perhaps it is not saying that they will be together in the deva world, but their harmony when married contributes to individual deva rebirths. Metta, Phil --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Dear Group, > > What suttas do others value for consolation when one has a dear one > who has died, or who is about to die? > 34702 From: Philip Date: Tue Jul 20, 2004 4:40am Subject: Re: [dsg] Got in a fight but all is right Hi Sarah > S: of course there are suttas specifically about the 8 worldly conditions: > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an08-006.html Ph: Thanks for that. Funny, I'd printed out most of the AN suttas available at Access to Insight but had missed that one. (snip) > The reason that there is less and less susceptibility to worldly > conditions as wisdom develops is because what are taken for good and bad > results are seen in terms of very brief moments of kusala and akusala > vipaka through the sense doors , followed by the various papanca you were > referring to before. So in a sense, all the suttas about realities > appearing through six doorways are relevant to this subject and this is > why I believe that with more and more understanding -- even at our > beginner stages -- there is less and less conflict between our dhamma > interest and study and worldly situations or relationships. Ph: Yes, I am finding so many suttas in the Samyutta Nikaya that deal with realities through the six doors, and khandas, and feeling, and so on. "Less and less conflict between our dhamma interest and study and worldly situations." Well, isn't the point that because of our growing understanding there is less and less susceptiblity to becoming upset by these situations and relationships? I think that applies to 6 of the 8 in particular. Aren't we able to becoming fairly independent from praise/blame, fame/disrepute and even loss/gain fairly quickly through intellectual understanding of the three characteristics and the aggregates? Next week I'm going to what amounts to a reunion of many relatives and friends, most of whom I haven't seen in close to 10 years. I think in the past there would be concern about measuring up to people, comparing myself in terms of worldly success. Now I have this understanding of Dhamma and it is so much more valuable than any worldly success, I deeply feel. I feel confident that I am moving beyond such concerns. But the remaining pair of concerns is so much deeper and immeditate and difficult to eradicate. The concerns about pain/pleasure get at lobha and dosa at the point of immediate response. THere is no way to get beyond these concerns through intellectual understanding. Only satipatthana practiced through countless lives can lead to eradicating them. So it almost seems to me that it should be "Six Worldly Concerns" and that pain/pleasure are much too immediate to be included. I will contact the folks at Access to Insight and suggest a revision. ;) > Phil, I also appreciated your comments on Abhidhamma study (34354) and the > analogy of the surgeon without his anatomy textbook. Ph: Thanks. I've been getting a little deeper into suttas since then, and I still think my comment was valid. I am able to appreciate the Samyutta Nikaya much more, in my opinion, having first gained a very basic understanding of Abhidhamma first. >Also enjoyed the > papanca ramble about the cockroaches and brahma-viharas Ph: Thanks again. I was thinking about killing or not killing cockroaches last night. Was reading about the abstinences in "Manual of Abhidhamma." It says there are 3 kinds of abstinences. THe first is "natural", based on considerations of concern for one's reputation and so on. The second is based on precepts we have taken. The third arises with supramundane path consciousness moments. Now, it seems to me that there is another kind. I started to abstain from killing cockroaches, not because of the precepts, because I have never taken them to tell the truth, and don't think much about them, believing rightly or wrongly that they represent a description of the way an enlightened person behaves rather than rules to follow. But I came to abstain from killing cockroaches. Subconscious effect of having read about the precepts so often? If not, it seems like a kind of abstaining that is based on growing understanding, but of course not at the level of path consciousness. Oh my gosh. That was another mini-ramble. My last before the vacation? We shall see. >...I think you're > picking up the essence of the Abhidhamma very quickly Ph: Today I received a copy of Rob M's first draft, and I have just started the Manual of Abhidhamma, and I am rereading Abhidhamma in Daily Life. I will be one of the Super Knowledgeable Abhidhamma Ones. I will! I will! To be honest, conceit sometimes has me thinking that in a few years I will be one of the stars - you know who you are- of DSG and in a few decades I might even be A SUPERSTAR like Nina. It is funny, but honestly I do catch myself thinking about being A Knowledgeable One. And then I realize, with relief, that the deeper I get into Dhamma, and the better my understanding becomes, the less conceit there will be, gradually. That is the wonderful thing about the Dhamma. We can plunge into it motivated by self-image, but exposure to Dhamma begins to eradicate this wrong view and we are surely not motivated by self-image for long. I guess. >and I agree with > your comment that `we can develop a "nevermind?Eattitude towards the > aspects we don't respnd to, and that developing this attitude might be > wholesome?E Thinking it all has to be clear and realized is usually more > indicative of present lobha than anything else, I find. Ph: Yes, I think this is true. Thanks for reminding me that I said that. (snip) > > I'll look forward to more of your reflections and anecdotes when > conditions allow. > > Have a good trip to Canada and I hope you and Naomi have a good and > peaceful summer. Ph: Thanks. Not out of here quite yet, though. I shouldn't have signed off so soon. Should have known better. Writing that novel really represents worldly concerns, though the heart of it is quite pure. Dhamma won out and brought me back here to my Dhamma friends. Metta, Phil 34703 From: Bill Saint-Onge Date: Tue Jul 20, 2004 6:25am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Consolation Perhaps a dhamma talk by Ajahn Chah called "Our Real Home", widely available online as a gift of dhamma... ericlonline wrote:This is a tough one Christine! I dont think one sutta will fit all occasions. I like the mustard seed story but this seems suitable for one who is in depression and not the anger or denial phases (aka Kubler Ross). Has the person passed yet? I have a very good hospice oriented article for care givers and the dying that I have found invaluable. I could email it to you off list if you like. PEACE E --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Dear Group, > > What suttas do others value for consolation when one has a dear one > who has died, or who is about to die? > > I am thinking of the verses if the Uraga-Jaataka, and though I see > the truth they speak, there is little comfort there: > > "Man quits his mortal frame, when joy in life is past, > Even as a snake is wont its worn out slough to cast. > No friend's lament can touch the ashes of the dead: > Why should I grieve? He fares the way he had to tread." > > "Uncalled he hither came, unbidden soon to go; > E'en as he came he went. What cause is here for woe? > No friend's lament can touch the ashes of the dead: > Why should I grieve? He fares the way he had to tread." > > "Though I should fast and weep, how would it profit me? > My kith and kin alas! would more unhappy be. > No friend's lament can touch the ashes of the dead: > Why should I grieve? He fares the way he had to tread." > > "As children cry in vain to grasp the moon above, > So mortals idly mourn the loss of those they love. > No friend's lament can touch the ashes of the dead: > Why should I grieve? He fares the way he had to tread." > > "A broken pot of earth, ah! who can piece again? > So too to mourn the dead is nought but labour vain. > No friend's lament can touch the ashes of the dead: > Why should I grieve? He fares the way he had to tread." > > metta and peace, > Christine > ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- 34704 From: Antony Woods Date: Tue Jul 20, 2004 3:59am Subject: sensual pleasures increase craving Buddha said: "...beings not free from passion for sensual pleasures -- devoured by sensual craving, burning with sensual fever -- indulge in sensual pleasures. The more they indulge in sensual pleasures, the more their sensual craving increases and the more they burn with sensual fever..." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/majjhima/mn075.html 34705 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Jul 20, 2004 10:19am Subject: Intro Tiika Vis. XIV, 88 Vi. 88. The 'supramundane' is fourfold by association with the four paths. So firstly, profitable consciousness itself is of twenty-one kinds. Intro Tiika Vis. XIV, 88 The Visuddhimagga, in its dealing with the khandha of consciousness, follows the triple division of the Dhammasanga.ni of: kusala dhamma, akusala dhamma and avyaakaata (indeterminate) dhamma. It deals first with kusala citta of the four planes of citta: citta of the sense-sphere, of the fine-material sphere (ruupa-jhaana) of the immaterial sphere (aruupa-jhaana) and supramundane or lokuttara citta. In this section it deals with the lokuttara kusala cittas of the four stages of enlightenment: the stage of the streamwinner, of the once-returner, of the non-returner and of the arahat. At each of these stages defilements are successively eradicated. The right conditions have to be cultivated so that enlightenment can be attained. The Tiika refers to the six purifications, visuddhis, that have to be reached before the seventh purification, purification by knowledge and vision that is associated with the magga-citta, path-consciousness. The first six are: purification of siila, of citta (concentration), of view (di.t.thi visuddhi, the first stage of tender insight), purification by overcoming doubt (the second stage of tender insight), purification by knowledge and vision of what is and what is not the Path (the third stage of tender insight), purification by knowledge and vision of the way (including all the stages of principal insight). All these purifications have been described in the Visuddhimagga further on. In the process during which enlightenment is attained the dhamma that appears is seen as impermanent, dukkha or anattå, and after that nibbana is experienced. The Tiika refers to three kinds of liberations, vimokkha, namely: the void liberation, the signless liberation and the desireless liberation. Nibbaana is called voidness, suññatta, because it is void of all conditioned dhammas. It is called signlessness, animitta, because it is void of ³signs², characteristics of conditioned realities. It is called desirelessness, appa.nihita, because it is without any basis of desire, namely, conditioned realities. As Acharn Sujin wrote in ³Survey of Paramattha Dhammas²: It is true that when one of the three characteristics is realized, also the other two are understood. But depending on a person¹s accumulated inclinations one of the three characteristics will be contemplated more often. We read in the Vis. XXI, 70: (Ps. II, 58. Path of Discrimination, Treatise on Liberation.) Enlightenment cannot be attained without the development of insight, stage by stage, beginning with the first stage of tender insight, the realization of the difference between the characteristic of naama, the reality which experiences something, and of ruupa which does not experience anything. In order to realize the difference between the characteristics of nama and of rupa we have to be mindful of any reality that appears at this moment. There is no other way. The Visuddhimagga states that profitable consciousness itself is of twenty-one kinds. Thus, summarizing, these are: eight types of kusala cittas of the sense-sphere, five types of ruupaavacara kusala cittas, four types of aruupaavacara kusala cittas, four types of lokuittara magga-cittas. All these kusala cittas arise only when there are the appropriate conditions and we cannot cause their arising whenever we want to. However, when we understand what the right conditions for kusala citta are, kusala can be developed. The Dhammasanga.ni enumerates all dhammas that constitute the first type of kusala citta of the sense-sphere and it ends this section by emphasizing that these are only dhammas devoid of self, stating : These few words, at the end of this section, express that the purpose of the enumeration of all these kusala dhammas is explaining their nature of suññatta or anattaa. The Expositor (I, p. 206) comments: < And here there are only states [dhammas]; no permanent being, no soul is known. These (fifty-six states) are mere states without essence, without a guiding principle. and it is to show the emptiness of this that they are stated here also...There is nothing else whatever, neither a being, nor an individuality, nor a man, nor a person...> **** Nina. 34706 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Jul 20, 2004 10:19am Subject: Tiika Vis. XIV, 88 Vis. 88. The 'supramundane' is fourfold (18)-(21) by association with the four paths. So firstly, profitable consciousness itself is of twenty-one kinds. Tiika 88: After the realization of the six Purifications in due order one must attain supramundane consciousness. What must be said in this connection will come afterwards. As to the expression, by association with the four Paths, this means the Path-consciousness of the streamwinner up to the Path-consciousness of the arahat, and thus it is by association with these four noble Paths. And also, with regard to this fourfold supramundane consciousness, when one has developed the way and experiences nibbana as object, the three kinds of liberations arise, namely: the void liberation, the signless liberation, the desireless liberation. And this should be understood as the turning away from the conditions for rebirth as a living being. Profitable consciousness is of twentyone kinds and this means that it is according to this method neither too short nor too detailed. ***** Pali: Vis. 88. lokuttara.m catumaggasampayogato catubbidhanti eva.m taava kusalavi~n~naa.nameva ekaviisatividha.m hoti. Tiika 88: Chavisuddhiparamparaaya samadhigantabba.m lokuttara.m. After the realization of the six Purifications in due order one must attain supramundane consciousness. Tattha vattabba.m parato aagamissati. What must be said in this connection will come afterwards. Catumaggasampayogatoti sotaapattimaggo yaava arahattamaggoti imehi catuuhi ariyamaggehi sampayogato. As to the expression, by association with the four Paths, this means the Path-consciousness of the streamwinner up to the Path-consciousness of the arahat, and thus it is by association with these four noble Paths. Catubbidhampi ceta.m bhaavanaamayameva hutvaa nibbaana.m aalambitvaa su~n~nato vimokkho, animitto vimokkho, appa.nihito vimokkhoti naamena uppajjati, And also, with regard to this fourfold supramundane consciousness, when one has developed the way and experiences nibbana as object, the three kinds of liberations arise, namely: the void liberation, the signless liberation, the desireless liberation. sattabhavaadibhavuupapattinivattakanti da.t.thabba.m. and this should be understood as the turning away from the conditions for rebirth as a living being. Ekaviisatividha.m hoti naatisa"nkhepavitthaaranayenaati adhippaayo. Profitable consciousness is of twentyone kinds and this means that it is according to this method neither too short nor too detailed. ***** Nina. 34707 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Jul 20, 2004 10:19am Subject: Re: [dsg] A Resolution, and Dhammasangani Hi Howard, Thanks for writing. Allow me a little meditation on the Dhammasangani. You need not bother to answer me. op 19-07-2004 14:25 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: > I will not lose sight of this. I often read "abhidhammic material" in > the suttas, especially in the Samyutta Nikaya, and from time to time I return > to conditional relations and to material in the Abhidhamattha Sangaha (sp?). I > must admit, however, to finding little delight in the Dhammasangani! ;-)) N: I am glad. Now, as I said before, the English translation looses so much of its force. Not everybody learns Pali, I understand. I also understand that the Dhammasangani in English is not so appealing. Today for my Intro to Visuddhimagga I compared English and Pali. What a difference. I was so impressed by the economy of words, the sobriety, it is incredible. If you read it you will see: these are only dhammas devoid of self in this way: This is all there is. That whole section is just to show that they are suññatta. < The section on the Void. The first citta.> Can it be said in a more concise way? And then the Co. to the Dhsgn explains it: no self or person in any way. As I said before, the very beginning is equally sober: kusala dhamma, akusala dhamma, avyaakaata dhamma. On the other hand, on p. 254, 255, the Dhsgn gives almost a hundred synonyms for lobha. In the footnotes there is a summary of the Co. It helps, as I said before, to read along with it the Co: the Expositor. I am glad you see Abhidhamma in S.N., yes, especially in S.N. IV. Nina. 34708 From: Date: Tue Jul 20, 2004 8:39am Subject: Re: [dsg] A Resolution, and Dhammasangani Hi, Nina - In a message dated 7/20/04 1:22:50 PM Eastern Daylight Time, nilo@e... writes: > Hi Howard, > Thanks for writing. > Allow me a little meditation on the Dhammasangani. You need not bother to > answer me. > op 19-07-2004 14:25 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: > > >I will not lose sight of this. I often read "abhidhammic material" in > >the suttas, especially in the Samyutta Nikaya, and from time to time I > return > >to conditional relations and to material in the Abhidhamattha Sangaha > (sp?). I > >must admit, however, to finding little delight in the Dhammasangani! ;-)) > N: I am glad. Now, as I said before, the English translation looses so much > of its force. Not everybody learns Pali, I understand. I also understand > that the Dhammasangani in English is not so appealing. Today for my Intro to > Visuddhimagga I compared English and Pali. What a difference. I was so > impressed by the economy of words, the sobriety, it is incredible. If you > read it you will see: these are only dhammas devoid of self in this way: > (suññattavaaro. Pa.thamacitta.m).> > This is all there is. That whole section is just to show that they are > suññatta. Can it be said in a > more concise way? > And then the Co. to the Dhsgn explains it: no self or person in any way. As > I said before, the very beginning is equally sober: kusala dhamma, akusala > dhamma, avyaakaata dhamma. > On the other hand, on p. 254, 255, the Dhsgn gives almost a hundred synonyms > for lobha. In the footnotes there is a summary of the Co. > It helps, as I said before, to read along with it the Co: the Expositor. I > am glad you see Abhidhamma in S.N., yes, especially in S.N. IV. > Nina. > ====================== Just two comments: 1) I agree that the English translation of the Dhsgn is terrible; the English is so awkward, stilted, and dry. The original would *have* to be better! 2) You are a wonderful spokesperson for the Abhidhamma! With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 34709 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Tue Jul 20, 2004 4:44pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Sabba Sutta Hi, Herman Often these expositions in the commentaries are summaries of material found elsewhere in the suttas. That may well be the case here, as we know from suttas such as the oft-quoted Simsapa Sutta that the knowledge of the Buddha was far greater than the things actually taught by him. On the general question you raise, commentarial elaboration of material in the suttas is generally speaking material from around the time of the Buddha or shortly afterwards that has been approved at one of the Great Councils, as I understand it. Jon --- Herman Hofman wrote: > Hi everyone, > > I was reading the sabba sutta as found at > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn35-023.html. It > takes up 6 lines. ... > " The Commentary's treatment of this discourse is very peculiar. To > begin with, it delineates three other "All's" in addition to the one > defined here, one of them supposedly larger in scope than the one > defined here: the Allness of the Buddha's omniscience (literally, > All-knowingness). This, despite the fact that the discourse says that > the description of such an all lies beyond the range of explanation." > > What, then, differentiates speculation in the commentaries from > non-commentarial speculation? > > Herman 34710 From: huajun_tang Date: Tue Jul 20, 2004 1:45pm Subject: Re: Is sensual pleasure and stimulation necessary for a healthy life? Dear Nori, My understaning of the Dhamma is that onyl those who have established in higher pleasure can give up sensual pleasure. It has been mentioned many times in the sutta that the pleasure born of seclusion is superior than any sensual pleasure. As in the case of an ordinary human baby, sensual pleasure of course is important to him/her. Buddha encourages all the people live happily,please see (S iv 42,Rasiya). With metta, Huajun --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "nori" wrote: > Hi Dhamma friends, > > I was curious to know what everyones opinions were on this? > > It is a well known fact that infants that are held, touched, cuddled, > caressed and gently massaged (A.K.A. - Loved) grow up to be healthier > children with improved mental function and healthier immune systems. > > "...It is essential -- essential to their health and well-being. > According to a research study in the 1940's, babies who were not > touched and cuddled often died from lack of human contact. According > to one renown child psychologist, touch stimulates the newborn's > physical as well as emotional health and may indeed be necessary to > stimulate the release of certain neurohormones and chemicals that > promote health, sharpen mental functions, and build a healthier > immune system." - excerpt from internet article > > > The Dhamma - as taught by Gotama tells us that it is possible to be > free from sensual desire; That one could dwell content in > renunciation from sensual pleasures and stimulation. > > But then considering the necessity of sensual stimulation in infants > and children I ask: > > ... is it ever truly possible to be free from the desire of sensual > pleasure and stimulation? > > > with metta, > > nori 34711 From: Robert Epstein Date: Tue Jul 20, 2004 6:48pm Subject: Re: Anapanasati Sutta Dear dsg'ers, I am posting this dialogue that started between Victor and Jon, and has my reply to Jon added. We wanted to continue the conversation on-list. I also wanted to apologize to Sukin for not replying to his last post on the topic of meditation, which is related to this thread. I have been contemplating his post for about a month, and still haven't gotten it together to reply properly. Sukin, I'm still working on it! Best, Robert Ep. ================ --- Robert Epstein wrote: > Sorry, Jon, I found this message from > what > seems to be a couple of months ago. Sorry that it slipped through the > cracks. > Although you know that I personally believe that mindfulness of > breathing is a > useful focus for all who want to develop mindfulness, I certainly find > your > argument interesting and am glad to have such a clear statement of it. > I don't > doubt that those whom Buddha was addressing in this sutta were advanced > practitioners and that this may have had some influence on the subject > matter, but > i don't think that it rules out the usefulness of what he is describing. > > > If you feel that mindfulness of breathing is very difficult and reserved > for those > who have already cultivated samatha with breathing as object, it seems > to me that > you would also acknowledge the extreme difficulty of actually perceiving > the > arisal of rupas and namas in the moment, as is the aim of Abhidhamma. > Could > anything be more difficult than that? > > Best, > Rob Ep. > > =============================== > > --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: > > Victor, and Rob Ep > > > > Victor, I'd like to come back to a post of yours that I answered in > > part before. I've included Rob Ep above because the same issue has > > been raised by him in recent posts. > > > > Victor: > > Why does one want to develop & pursue anapanasati? Because > > "Mindfulness of in-&-out breathing, when developed & pursued, is of > > great fruit, of great benefit. Mindfulness of in-&-out breathing, > > when developed & pursued, brings the four frames of reference to > > their culmination." > > > > Jon: > > Context is everything. In the sutta, these words come at the end of > > the description of the occasion on which the discourse was given. It > > is helpful to look at the occasion to get a proper understanding of > > the teaching being given. I have set out below the relevant part of > > the 'occasion' description, which is often overlooked (people like to > > jump straight in at the passage you have quoted). The text is taken > > from ATI; I have added paragraph numbers so that I can cross refer > > more easily. > > > > The first point to note is that the assembly of monks to which the > > sutta is given is an extremely illustrious one. This is indicated by > > the roll-call of 'well-known elder disciples' [1], the glowing > > description of the assembly by the Buddha [7] and the description of > > different levels of attainment of those present, who included: > > [8] Arahants, > > [9] non-returners > > [10] once-returners > > [11] stream-enterers > > [12] monks who 'remain devoted to the development of the four frames > > of reference... the seven factors for Awakening... the noble > > eightfold path' > > [13] monks who 'remain devoted to the development of good will... > > compassion... appreciation... equanimity...[the perception of the] > > foulness [of the body]... the perception of inconstancy'. > > [14] monks who 'remain devoted to mindfulness of in-&-out breathing'. > > > > > > Note the reference at [12] to monks who 'remain devoted to' the > > development of the four frames of reference ... the seven factors for > > Awakening... the noble eightfold path'. This I take to mean monks > > who are well advanced in the development of insight (vipassana > > bhavana). > > > > Now regarding the monks who 'remain devoted to mindfulness of > > in-&-out breathing' [14], these are the monks to whom the passage we > > are now considering is addressed in particular. I see 2 things of > > significance. > > > > The first is that these monks are already skilled in the development > > of samatha with breath as object; the second is that they are not yet > > to be counted among those who are 'devoted to the development of the > > four frames of reference ... the seven factors for Awakening... the > > noble eightfold path' at [12], i.e., as being firmly established in > > the development of insight. > > > > Now let's look again at your passage, in the light of this > > background. It reads [15]: > > "Mindfulness of in-&-out breathing, ... > > [J: as being developed by those just described at [14]] > > when developed & pursued, ... > > [J: i.e., developed and pursued in the particular way to be described > > later in this sutta] > > brings the four frames of reference ... the seven factors for > > Awakening ...clear knowing & release to their culmination." > > [J: i.e., as for the persons described at [12], who are well > > established in insight] > > > > So I see this passage as extolling the development of insight, in > > tandem with the further development of samatha with breath as object, > > for those who have already developed samatha with breath as object. > > > > I do not see in this particular passage the message that people > > wishing to development insight are advised to do so by also > > developing samatha with breath as object. > > > > A final point of interest is that the assembly includes monks who are > > skilled in samatha with other objects such as the 4 brahma-viharas, > > foulness of the body, and the perception of impermanence [13]. > > However, no special instruction is given here (or elsewhere, that I'm > > aware of) for the concurrent development of insight for these > > disciples. I suspect this reflects the fact that enlightenment based > > on jhana with breath as object is of particular difficulty, and is a > > course that is suitable for Buddhas, Pacceka-Buddhas and the great > > disciples, i.e., for the very greatest of beings. > > > > Jon > > > > Anapanasati Sutta (M. 118) > > ******************************* > > [1] I have heard that on one occasion the Blessed One was staying > > at Savatthi in the Eastern Monastery, the palace of Migara's mother, > > together with many well-known elder disciples -- with Ven. Sariputta, > > Ven. Maha Moggallana, Ven. Maha Kassapa, Ven. Maha Kaccana, Ven. Maha > > Kotthita, Ven. Maha Kappina, Ven. Maha Cunda, Ven. Revata, Ven. > > Ananda, and other well-known elder disciples. ... > > > > [6] Now on that occasion -- the Uposatha day of the fifteenth, the > > full-moon night of the White water-lily month, the fourth month of > > the rains -- the Blessed One was seated in the open air surrounded by > > the community of monks. Surveying the silent community of monks, he > > addressed them: > > > > [7] "Monks, this assembly is free from idle chatter, devoid of idle > > chatter, and is established on pure heartwood: such is this community > > of monks, such is this assembly. The sort of assembly that is worthy > > of gifts, worthy of hospitality, worthy of offerings, worthy of > > respect, an incomparable field of merit for the world: such is this > > community of monks, such is this assembly. The sort of assembly to > > which a small gift, when given, becomes great, and a great gift > > greater: such is this community of monks, such is this assembly. The > > sort of assembly that it is rare to see in the world: such is this > > community of monks, such is this assembly -- the sort of assembly > > that it would be worth traveling for leagues, taking along > > provisions, in order to see. > > > > [8] "In this community of monks there are monks who are Arahants, > > whose mental effluents are ended, who have reached fulfillment, done > > the task, laid down the burden, attained the true goal, totally > > destroyed the fetter of becoming, and who are released through right > > gnosis: such are the monks in this community of monks. > > > > [9] "In this community of monks there are monks who, with the total > > ending of the first set of five fetters, are due to be reborn [in the > > Pure Abodes], there to be totally unbound, never again to return from > > that world: such are the monks in this community of monks. > > > > [10] "In this community of monks there are monks who, with the > > total ending of [the first] three fetters, and with the attenuation > > of passion, aversion, & delusion, are once-returners, who -- on > > returning only one more time to this world -- will make an ending to > > stress: such are the monks in this community of monks. > > > > [11] "In this community of monks there are monks who, with the > > total ending of [the first] three fetters, are stream-winners, > > steadfast, never again destined for states of woe, headed for > > self-awakening: such are the monks in this community of monks. > > > > [12] "In this community of monks there are monks who remain devoted > > to the development of the four frames of reference... the four right > > exertions... the four bases of power... the five faculties... the > > five strengths... the seven factors for Awakening... the noble > > eightfold path: such are the monks in this community of monks. > > > > [13] "In this community of monks there are monks who remain devoted > > to the development of good will... compassion... appreciation... > > equanimity...[the perception of the] foulness [of the body]... the > > perception of inconstancy: such are the monks in this community of > > monks. > > > > [14] "In this community of monks there are monks who remain devoted > > to mindfulness of in-&-out breathing. > > > > [15] "Mindfulness of in-&-out breathing, when developed & pursued, > > is of great fruit, of great benefit. Mindfulness of in-&-out > > breathing, when developed & pursued, brings the four frames of > > references to their culmination. The four frames of reference, when > > developed & pursued, bring the seven factors for Awakening to their > > culmination. The seven factors for Awakening, when developed & > > pursued, bring clear knowing & release to their culmination. > > > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/majjhima/mn118.html > > > > --- yu_zhonghao wrote: > > > Hi Jon, > > > > > > Commentaries, ancient or modern, on anapanasati may be helpful to > > > one who develops anapanasati(being mindful with breath). > > > > > > Why does one want to develop & pursue anapanasati? Because > > > "Mindfulness of in-&-out breathing, when developed & pursued, is of > > > great fruit, of great benefit. Mindfulness of in-&-out breathing, > > > when developed & pursued, brings the four frames of reference to > > their culmination." > > > > > > Developing & pursuing anapanasati is a "doing" and a skillful one. > > > > > > And by "doing" I mean kamma/action. It is the "doing" that leads > > to > > > the cessation of "doing." > > > > > > There is nothing wrong spending certain amount of time a day > > > dedicating to developing and pursuing anapanasati. > > > > > > Why does one want to sit down folding his legs crosswise, holding > > > his body erect? > > > > > > Speaking from my own understanding, because it is a stable posture > > > that keeps the body still, conducive for calming the bodily and > > > mental fabrications and arousing energy. > > > > > > While in the suttas (references would be helpful) there may be many > > > instances of people, including lay-followers, becoming enlightened > > > while listening to the Buddha's discourses, it does not mean that > > > these people did not spending time on developing & pursuing > > > anapasati. > > > > > > As I see it, anapanasati is being mindful of and with in-&-out > > > breathing. > > > > > > Metta, > > > Victor 34712 From: Date: Tue Jul 20, 2004 7:01pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Intro Tiika Vis. XIV, 88 N: "As Acharn Sujin wrote in ³Survey of Paramattha Dhammas²: " Hi Nina, Are these three emancipations (signless, desireless, and voidness) associated with the three dhammas of the mental body, feeling, perception, and mental formations? Perception is particularly associated with signs and identity (this is different from belief in a self). With grasping, a mental formation, belief in self arises. And finally the basis of desire is feeling. Also it is interesting to note that in English "grasping" can mean "understanding". This fits well with ditthi (view) which is also mental formation. I've been reading Nagarguna's MMK and that ends with an analysis of the emptiness of views. Larry 34713 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Tue Jul 20, 2004 8:13pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Anapanasati Sutta Hi, Rob Nice to hear from you again. Rob: I found this message from what seems to be a couple of months ago. Sorry that it slipped through the cracks. Jon: No problem, Rob. I'm just happy to find someone who takes even longer to reply than I do ;-)) Rob: Although you know that I personally believe that mindfulness of breathing is a useful focus for all who want to develop mindfulness, I certainly find your argument interesting and am glad to have such a clear statement of it. I don't doubt that those whom Buddha was addressing in this sutta were advanced practitioners and that this may have had some influence on the subject matter, but i don't think that it rules out the usefulness of what he is describing. Jon: I agree with you on this last point. There is no question whatsoever as to the usefulness of mindfulness of breathing in general, or of the development of insight combined with mindfulness of breathing as described in the Anapanasati Sutta. The only question is as to the 'applicability' to you and me of what is described in that sutta – do we at this time fall within the class of persons capable of putting into practice what is there described? On this question, the details of the occasion and the audience to whom the sutta was spoken will be relevant. To put that another way, is this particular passage to be read as a general endorsement of anapanasati for all who want to develop mindfulness (including relative beginners), or is it to be read as setting out a path for those who are at the stage of development where they have the potential for attainment of enlightenment (a) in this lifetime and (b) with jhana as basis? Rob: If you feel that mindfulness of breathing is very difficult and reserved for those who have already cultivated samatha with breathing as object, it seems to me that you would also acknowledge the extreme difficulty of actually perceiving the arisal of rupas and namas in the moment, as is the aim of Abhidhamma. Could anything be more difficult than that? Jon: Again, I agree with this observation. In my view, the difficulty of both mindfulness of breathing and insight development are severely underestimated. But of the two, the development of insight is infinitely more difficult, both in terms of the opportunity of hearing the right explanation and in terms of understanding what is involved. The teaching on samatha bhavana is extant in the world long after the dhamma has disappeared. Indeed, that is one reason why in my view our energies should be concentrated in this lifetime on studying what the Buddha had to say about vipassana. (A minor quibble. The actual perception of arisen namas and rupas is not the aim of just the Abhidhamma, but is the aim of the suttas and the Vinaya also, I believe.) Rob, I appreciate your comments and contribution to this discussion. I hope I have managed to get across that our difference is not so much on the question of whether mindfulness of breathing is a high level of kusala or not, nor on whether it was widely practised in the Buddha's time, nor whether it may in certain circumstances be the basis for the development of insight and indeed enlightenment (there is no dispute from me on any of these points), but on the question of how relevant the Anapanasati Sutta is to you and me as regards the development of insight at the present moment, in our lives as we presently live them. Jon --- Robert Epstein wrote: > Dear dsg'ers, > I am posting this dialogue that started between Victor and Jon, and > has my reply to Jon added. We wanted to continue the conversation > on-list. ... > --- Robert Epstein wrote: > > > Sorry, Jon, > I found this message from > > what > > seems to be a couple of months ago. Sorry that it slipped through the > > cracks. ... > > > Best, > > Rob Ep. 34714 From: ericlonline Date: Tue Jul 20, 2004 9:11pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Consolation --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Hi Eric (and others New to the List) > > Welcome to DSG! Thanks Sarah! > Maybe if it's on line you can just give a link here. unfortunately it is not. I will see if I can upload it. It is in a .pdf format I'd be very glad if > you would kindly let us know a little more about your interest and > background with regard to the Buddhism and also caring in general. I have been involved with Theravada Buddhism for about 5 years. I am pretty active at a Wat close to my home. I have been fortunate to have had some good teachers/monks over the years. Many monks with many rains, etc. A big influence was Buddhadasa. He was a teacher to a few of the monks. Also a few Ven. American monks that were instrumental in my understandings. I am a committed meditator and my nose is always in the Nikayas. I know some Pali but I don't feel it is 100% essential. Ven. Bodhi stayed at the Wat a few summers ago for a few weeks and after meeting him, I am confident in his translations. Plus I read so much other stuff from other traditions, the gaps seem to get filled in enough for my purposes i.e. practice. RE: caring. I took a 13week hospice training course to become a volunteer for a hospice care facility about 3 years. The training was great, covering a wide range of topics: drugs, medicade, grief, etc. I have been a volunteer ever since. PEACE E 34715 From: Herman Hofman Date: Wed Jul 21, 2004 3:07am Subject: Dependent Origination MarkI Hi everyone, The Mahapadana Sutta is acknowledged by scholars as being the first account of Paticcasamuppada. It may be of interest to some that this original version has only 10 links, quoted as follows from http://www.buddhistinformation.com/ida%5Fb%5Fwells%5Fmemorial%5Fsutra%5F library/mahapadana_sutta.htm: "And then, monks, the Bodhisattva thought, "With what being present, does aging and death occur? What conditions aging and death?" And then, monks, as a result of wisdom born of profound consideration the realization dawned on him, "Birth being present, aging and death occurs, birth conditions aging and death." "Then he thought, "What conditions birth?" And the realization dawned on him, "Becoming conditions birth". "What conditions becoming?". "Clinging conditions becoming.". "Craving Conditions clinging". "Feeling conditions craving.". "Contact conditions feeling". "The Six sense Bases condition contact". "Mind and body condition the six sense bases". "Consciousness conditions mind and body". And then the Bodhisattva Vipassi thought, "With what being present does consciousness occur? What conditions consciousness?" And then, as a result of the wisdom born profound consideration, the realization dawned on him, "Mind and body conditions consciousness'." NB the end is that mind and body condition consciousness, preceded by consciousness conditioning mind and body There is no mention of avijja and sankhara. The following is quoted from http://ccbs.ntu.edu.tw/FULLTEXT/JR-ENG/wadd.htm from an article entitled: THE SO-CALLED "MAHAPADANA" SUTTANTA AND THE DATE OF THE PALI CANON BY L. A. WADDELL The Journal of the Royal Asiatic Society of Great Britain and Ireland 1914.07.15 p. 661-680 To students of Buddhism and Comparative Religion desirous of knowing Buddha's own views and teaching from his own words, it is extremely disconcerting to find that the Pali Canon can no longer be regarded as the actual "Word" and Doctrine of Buddha himself. It has been conclusively established by the researches of Kern, Minayef, Senart, Feer, Poussin, Lefmann, Winternitz, R. O. Franke, and others (including the writer(1) ) that the Pali Canon is a mosaic of material belonging to different ages and stages in the development of Buddhism; and that the words and theories put into the mouth of Buddha therein are largely the composition of monks who lived several centuries after Buddha's death, and considerably later than was estimated by Professor H. Oldenberg.(2) Herman 34716 From: Date: Wed Jul 21, 2004 1:30am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Anapanasati Sutta Hi, Jon (and Rob) - In a message dated 7/20/04 11:15:58 PM Eastern Daylight Time, jonoabb@y... writes: > Jon [to Rob E]: > I agree with you on this last point. There is no question whatsoever as > to the usefulness of mindfulness of breathing in general, or of the > development of insight combined with mindfulness of breathing as described > in the Anapanasati Sutta. The only question is as to the 'applicability' > to you and me of what is described in that sutta – do we at this time fall > within the class of persons capable of putting into practice what is there > described? On this question, the details of the occasion and the audience > to whom the sutta was spoken will be relevant. > > To put that another way, is this particular passage to be read as a > general endorsement of anapanasati for all who want to develop mindfulness > (including relative beginners), or is it to be read as setting out a path > for those who are at the stage of development where they have the > potential for attainment of enlightenment (a) in this lifetime and (b) > with jhana as basis? > ========================== Just a few comments, Jon: 1) I do agree that anapanasati is a subtle practice and not nearly as "easy" as, say, concentration on an internally repeated manta (Skt. mantram). 2) I do not recall any sutta (or any mention in the Abhidhamma Sangaha) of mindfulness of the breath not being generally recommended, and, in fact, it is listed in both the Vimuttimagga and the Visuddhimagga as a meditation subject that is suitable for all personality types, and it is said that it can take one "all the way". 3) Mindfulness of the breath is the most widely practiced form of Buddhist meditation worldwide. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 34717 From: Date: Wed Jul 21, 2004 1:52am Subject: Re: [dsg] Dependent Origination MarkI Hi, Herman - In a message dated 7/21/04 6:12:46 AM Eastern Daylight Time, hhofman@t... writes: > > Hi everyone, > > The Mahapadana Sutta is acknowledged by scholars as being the first > account of Paticcasamuppada. It may be of interest to some that this > original version has only 10 links, quoted as follows from > http://www.buddhistinformation.com/ida%5Fb%5Fwells%5Fmemorial%5Fsutra%5F > library/mahapadana_sutta.htm: > > "And then, monks, the Bodhisattva thought, "With what being present, > does aging and death occur? What conditions aging and death?" And then, > monks, as a result of wisdom born of profound consideration the > realization dawned on him, "Birth being present, aging and death occurs, > birth conditions aging and death." > > "Then he thought, "What conditions birth?" And the realization dawned on > him, "Becoming conditions birth". "What conditions becoming?". "Clinging > conditions becoming.". "Craving Conditions clinging". "Feeling > conditions craving.". "Contact conditions feeling". "The Six sense Bases > condition contact". "Mind and body condition the six sense bases". > "Consciousness conditions mind and body". And then the Bodhisattva > Vipassi thought, "With what being present does consciousness occur? What > conditions consciousness?" And then, as a result of the wisdom born > profound consideration, the realization dawned on him, "Mind and body > conditions consciousness'." > > NB the end is that mind and body condition consciousness, preceded by > consciousness conditioning mind and body > > There is no mention of avijja and sankhara. > > ======================== This *is* interesting. Of course, there are numerous formulations that the Buddha gave with varying numbers of links. I suspect that differing formulations involved differing emphases. This particular formulation, like the Sheaves of Reeds sutta, seems to emphasize what Ven. Nanananda refers to as the vi~n~nana-namarupa vortex (what I think of as the "subjectivity-objectivity" vortex). Many formulations, of course, emphasize ignorance, inasmuch as its eradication by the "sword of wisdom" is the coup de grace. Also *some* formulation had to be the first! ;-) However, I must admit it is interesting that the first one included the mutuality of vi~n~nana and namarupa, and starts with that. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 34718 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Wed Jul 21, 2004 7:13am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Anapanasati Sutta Hi, Howard Thanks for coming in with these comments. > 1) I do agree that anapanasati is a subtle practice and not nearly as > "easy" as, say, concentration on an internally repeated manta (Skt. mantram). Well, no samatha is "easy", but not so much because of the concentration aspect, more because of the kusala aspect, which is something else again. As regards the relative difficulty of different objects of samatha, I can only rely on sources such as the Visuddhi-Magga which, as you know, indicates that anapanasati is appropriate for the great disciples, and that the nimitta becomes more subtle as the level of samatha increases. > 2) I do not recall any sutta (or any mention in the Abhidhamma > Sangaha) of mindfulness of the breath not being generally recommended, and, in fact, > it is listed in both the Vimuttimagga and the Visuddhimagga as a meditation > subject that is suitable for all personality types, and it is said that it can > take one "all the way". Yes, but neither of these aspects relates to its level of difficulty, or whether it is generally endorsed by the Buddha for all who want to develop mindfulness. > 3) Mindfulness of the breath is the most widely practiced form of > Buddhist meditation worldwide. That may be so, but shouldn't we be more concerned with what the texts have to say about it? I suspect its popularity may be largely due to people's reading of the Anapanasati Sutta as a general endorsement of anapanasati for all who want to development insight, and this I believe to be a misreading. Jon 34719 From: Antony Woods Date: Wed Jul 21, 2004 2:29am Subject: Kamma and Its Fruit by Nyanaponika Thera http://www.lioncity.net/buddhism/index.php?showtopic=6572 34720 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Wed Jul 21, 2004 8:07am Subject: Re: [dsg] Dependent Origination and Kamma Hi, Howard --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, all - > > A "light bulb" lit up yesterday. I was thinking about the cycle of > dependent origination from the momentary perspective and exactly how and > where kamma fits into it, when the bulb lit up. Some moments of kusala no doubt, perhaps of a level not normally experienced. I am wondering if conscious effort for the arising of that kusala was necessary, or whether the kusala occurred of its own conditions ;-)) Jon I believe that kamma is > related to > paticcasamuppada mainly with respect to two links, the sankhara phase, > and the > bhava phase. ... 34721 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Jul 21, 2004 10:15am Subject: Re: [dsg] Intro Tiika Vis. XIV, 88 op 21-07-2004 04:01 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > N: "As Acharn Sujin wrote in ³Survey of Paramattha Dhammas²: ....When he realizes > dhammas which appear as impermanent he becomes liberated (realizes the > four noble Truths) by the emancipation of signlessness (animitta > vimokkha). When he realizes dhammas as dukkha he becomes liberated by > the emancipation of desirelessness (appa.nihita vimokkha). When he > realizes dhammas as anattaa, non-self, he becomes liberated by the > emancipation of voidness (suññatta vimokkha).>" L: Are these three emancipations (signless, desireless, and voidness) > associated with the three dhammas of the mental body, feeling, > perception, and mental formations? Perception is particularly associated > with signs and identity (this is different from belief in a self). N: I understand your association of perception and remembrance, saññaa and nimitta, image. Saññaa accompanies each citta and remembers or marks the object. It also accompanies paññaa. But here there is another context about signlessness we have to look at. I shall explain more below. As we read about nibbana: Signlessness can mean: void of ³signs², characteristics of conditioned realities. Nibbana is the unconditioned dhamma, that is emphasized here. Signless can also mean: without the signs of distortion or perversity, seeing permanence in what is impermanent. This is an explanation in another way, I shall quote below. L:With > grasping, a mental formation, belief in self arises. N: As I quoted: nibbana is called . This is the gateway to liberation for the person who realizes the nature of dukkha of the dhamma that appears. This is not dukkha in the sense of unhappy feeling, it is the Truth of dukkha inherent in all conditioned dhammas that arise and fall away and are thus no refuge, not worth clinging to. So long as the impermanence of dhammas is not realized their nature of dukkha is not really understood. L: And finally the > basis of desire is feeling. N: As I quoted: without any basis of desire, namely, conditioned realities. You think of another context, that of the Deopendent Origination: feeling conditions craving. But see above:here the context is the gateway to liberation for the person who realizes dukkha. Thus, in order to understand the three gateways we have to pay attention to the three characteristics. **************** ******************* L: Also it is interesting to note that in English "grasping" can mean > "understanding". This fits well with ditthi (view) which is also mental > formation. I've been reading Nagarguna's MMK and that ends with an > analysis of the emptiness of views. N: We have to be careful how and when we use the English word grasping that has more meanings. Again, the context has to be studied. Does it stand for clinging or for understanding, that is the question. I think that it does not help to make associations with the three khandhas as you do. This whole section is only about the development of pañña, and together with it the development of all the enlightenment factors. We should remember that the three characteristics of impermanence, dukkha and anatta are more clearly understood during the process of the development of vipassana pañña. In the course of insight pañña becomes more detached from conditioned dhammas, turns away from them. Let me quote again: (Ps. II, 58. Path of Discrimination, Treatise on Liberation.)> It is emphasized that the six purifications have to be developed in due order. Thus, back to basics! We have to understand what dhamma is that appears now. When we have a pain, can we make it go away whenever we want to? It has no owner, no possessor, it arises because there are conditions for it, then it falls away. Everything that arises must have conditions for its arising, it cannot arise alone, all by itself. Everything that appears now falls away very fast. It does not return. We have to understand this in our own life, otherwise all the study is useless. Is there anything that belongs to us, eyesense, earsense? We have to see and hear different things, but can we control what we see and hear? Seeing and hearing have already arisen, how can we prevent them from arising? Some dhammas cognize, know, feel or think. Some dhammas do not know anything, like hardness, this does not have any life. Gradually we can find out that there are two different kinds of dhamma: nama and rupa. When stages of insight arise, it can be directly realized that nama and rupa which arise are conditioned, without thinking about conditions. Then it will be clearer that they truly have no possessor. We may say that dhammas are void, but it has to be realized that they are void. As to the Triple Gateway to Liberation, there is another way of formulating, but we should not forget that insight has to be developed in stages. It cannot be immediately realized that this or that dhamma is not self, it is a long process. We read in the Co. to the Abh. Sangaha (T.A. p. 358): Pañña leads to detachment but we have to start from scratch. Nina. 34722 From: Herman Hofman Date: Wed Jul 21, 2004 3:52pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Anapanasati Sutta Hi Jon, >That may be so, but shouldn't we be more concerned with what the texts >have to say about it? I am quoting the above without a context, because I feel that the above line typifies your general emphasis, which is not on the "it", nor the application of the "it", it is on the texts, as texts. Now it is true, the texts are there, so they are a possible candidate for emphasis, even undue emphasis. But it requires a very large stretch of the imagination to consider the texts as a unit, a whole. As an example, I am attempting to demonstrate elsewhere that there are very large divides between the original statement of dependent origination, which is a whole in itself, to the Patthana and its treatment of paccaya, quite another whole, to the treatment of it all in the Vis. There is a traceable development of thought within this tradition, which demonstrates that, at least at some times, this tradition was a living, evolving thing. And because this tradition was a living thing, it cannot be consulted about what it says as a whole, about certain matters, because there is no wholeness there. What it says at the beginning is not the same as what it says at the end. In the hundreds and thousands of years of the evolution of the Buddhist tradition much material has been ingested and integrated, and much material has been rejected, just like with any other living thing. What the tradition was at any point of time is not the same as what it was at any other time. So, when referring to the texts, one must either cite the whole lot, or underscore in the reference that personal emphasis and selection has come into play. This leaves us in a place of greater self-reliance than where we started from. There are alternatives to the "texts only" approach, but this post is long enough as it is :-) Herman 34723 From: Date: Wed Jul 21, 2004 0:09pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Dependent Origination and Kamma Hi, Jon - In a message dated 7/21/04 11:09:59 AM Eastern Daylight Time, jonoabb@y... writes: > Hi, Howard > > --- upasaka@a... wrote: >Hi, all - > > > > A "light bulb" lit up yesterday. I was thinking about the cycle > of > >dependent origination from the momentary perspective and exactly how and > >where kamma fits into it, when the bulb lit up. > > Some moments of kusala no doubt, perhaps of a level not normally > experienced. I am wondering if conscious effort for the arising of that > kusala was necessary, or whether the kusala occurred of its own conditions > ;-)) > > Jon > ===================== Well, how kusala or not I can't say. But as far as effort is concerned, the Buddha recommended it in the form of right effort, which as I understand it has four aspects: effort to enable kusala states to arise, effort to increase kusala states that have already arisen, effort to lessen akusala states already arisen, and effort to prevent new akusala states from arising. Now, I believe that conscious effort is an important condition for achieving this, but, in any case, I understand the efforts coming under "right effort" to be subtle for the most part, consisting very little in confrontational attempts at direct, forceful mind control, but much more in engaging in regular preparation by contemplation of the Dhamma, calming the mind through sila and samadhi, and, with a degree of understanding and right intention as background developed by such study and training, cultivating, by regular practice, a high level of consistent attention and mindfulness in order to "see" what's happening. Maintaining a high level of consistent attention to engage in the kusala/akusala monitoring is like standing guard at the gate of the city, watching carefully who is entering or trying to, and responding according to instructions: stop the terrorists (akusala), but permit - even encourage - the good visitors (kusala). Such a guard requires prior instruction (pariyatti) and much hands-on training (patipatti) to properly carry out his responsibilities. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 34724 From: ericlonline Date: Wed Jul 21, 2004 11:58am Subject: [dsg] Re: Consolation Looks like the web site is back up. You can find the article I mentioned here. It is called crossing the creek. http://crossingthecreek.com/main_index.htm PEACE E 34725 From: ericlonline Date: Wed Jul 21, 2004 11:46am Subject: [dsg] Re: Anapanasati Sutta Hey All, my comments follow below Rob: Although you know that I personally believe that mindfulness of breathing is a useful focus for all who want to develop mindfulness, I certainly find your argument interesting and am glad to have such a clear statement of it. I don't doubt that those whom Buddha was addressing in this sutta were advanced practitioners and that this may have had some influence on the subject matter, but i don't think that it rules out the usefulness of what he is describing. Jon: I agree with you on this last point. There is no question whatsoever as to the usefulness of mindfulness of breathing in general, or of the development of insight combined with mindfulness of breathing as described in the Anapanasati Sutta. The only question is as to the 'applicability' to you and me of what is described in that sutta – do we at this time fall within the class of persons capable of putting into practice what is there described? On this question, the details of the occasion and the audience to whom the sutta was spoken will be relevant. To put that another way, is this particular passage to be read as a general endorsement of anapanasati for all who want to develop mindfulness (including relative beginners), or is it to be read as setting out a path for those who are at the stage of development where they have the potential for attainment of enlightenment (a) in this lifetime and (b)with jhana as basis? E: Do you breath? If so, then Anapanasati is appropriate for you. OK that was a bit extreme but you know what I mean. :-) Rob: If you feel that mindfulness of breathing is very difficult and reserved for those who have already cultivated samatha with breathing as object, it seems to me that you would also acknowledge the extreme difficulty of actually perceiving the arisal of rupas and namas in the moment, as is the aim of Abhidhamma. Could anything be more difficult than that? Jon: Again, I agree with this observation. In my view, the difficulty of both mindfulness of breathing and insight development are severely underestimated. But of the two, the development of insight is infinitely more difficult, both in terms of the opportunity of hearing the right explanation and in terms of understanding what is involved. The teaching on samatha bhavana is extant in the world long after the dhamma has disappeared. E: What do you mean here Jon about the 'dhamma has disappeared'? Jon: Indeed, that is one reason why in my view our energies should be concentrated in this lifetime on studying what the Buddha had to say about vipassana. (A minor quibble. The actual perception of arisen namas and rupas is not the aim of just the Abhidhamma, but is the aim of the suttas and the Vinaya also, I believe.) Rob, I appreciate your comments and contribution to this discussion. I hope I have managed to get across that our difference is not so much on the question of whether mindfulness of breathing is a high level of kusala or not, nor on whether it was widely practised in the Buddha's time, nor whether it may in certain circumstances be the basis for the development of insight and indeed enlightenment (there is no dispute from me on any of these points), but on the question of how relevant the Anapanasati Sutta is to you and me as regards the development of insight at the present moment, in our lives as we presently live them. E: IMHO insight will not arise without samatha. I dont think 'insight' can be cultivated but concentration sure can be. My first meditation teacher said that there is no such thing as Vipassana meditation practice. He said, "It is called Satipatthana. Vipassana arises as a result of the correct practice of Satipatthana." If you look at Satipatthana and Anapanasati, they would seem to have more in common then not. The 4 foundations correspond to the 4 tetrads of Anapanasati. And here is one that is going to make you think (I hope). Buddhadasa said that real Vipassana does not arise until step 13 of Anapanasati. If that is true, coupled with the comments of how difficult Anapanasati is above, then what are all the 'Vipassana' meditators really doing? PEACE E 34726 From: Date: Wed Jul 21, 2004 8:19pm Subject: Vism.XIV 89 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) Ch. XIV 89. II. The 'unprofitable' is one kind according to plane, being only of the sense sphere. It is of three kinds according to root, as (a) rooted in greed, (b) rooted in hate, and (c) rooted in delusion. 34727 From: nori Date: Wed Jul 21, 2004 8:25pm Subject: Re: Is sensual pleasure and stimulation necessary for a healthy life? hi Dhamma friends, Thank you Andrew and Huajun for your comments. The reason for my post ... Throughout most of my life I have kept myself happy with - (apart from the striving for becoming to satisfy my ego) ... sensual pleasures; pursuing them and indulging in them. As a kid, I sought sensual pleasures by going outside and playing with friends, climbing on things, jumping off of things and performing daring stunts, playing games and various sports, watching TV shows, going to the movies, playing with toys, video games, etc. As I got older: going to parties, listening to music, playing music, drinking alchohol & smoking ganga with friends, indulging in sensual sex with girlfriends, hanging out acting foolish, etc.; your typical American life. I went from sensual pleasure to sensual pleasure, and kept myself fairly happy as long as they lasted. In some moments between these pleasures, I was faced with loss, craving and suffering when there was no fun to be had due to whatever reasons (e.g. friendships breaking up, working a full time job, etc.) In the doctrine of Gotama Buddha, he teaches how sensual pleasures will never lead to fullfillment, that they are temporary, and will ultimately lead to craving and suffering, thus he teaches: [1] Majjhima Nikaya 66 Latukikopama Sutta The Quail Simile http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/majjhima/mn066.html "And, Udayin, there are these five strings of sensuality. Which five? Forms cognizable via the eye -- agreeable, pleasing, charming, endearing, fostering desire, enticing. Sounds cognizable via the ear... Aromas cognizable via the nose... Flavors cognizable via the tongue... Tactile sensations cognizable via the body -- agreeable, pleasing, charming, endearing, fostering desire, enticing. These are the five strings of sensuality. Now, any pleasure & happiness that arises dependent on these five strings of sensuality is called sensual pleasure, a filthy pleasure, a run-of-the-mill pleasure, an ignoble pleasure. And of this pleasure I say that it is not to be cultivated, not to be developed, not to be pursued, that it is to be feared." ... and so having faith in the Gotama, I ceased to have the intention and agenda of seeking out and indulging in sensual pleasures. Currently I am trying to cultivate a life of peace, solitude and contemplation, happiness free from my dependence on sensual pleasures. But going from living a life which was so full of sensual pleasures to a life of peace, solitude and contemplation, I started feeling depravation of sensual pleasures and stimulation; as if my body needed it like food. I was going through withdrawal. Instead of feeling happiness - freedom, pleasure and satisfaction from renunciation of sensual pleasure, I felt stress from the repression of my desire for sensual pleasure and stimulation. I started wondering if this was really healthy for me, and whether it was indeed the right path to take. I wondered in my times of stress if whether my life was better off in my old ways of seeking sensual pleasures to gain my temporary moments of happiness. I thought to myself : `at least in this way, I had some sort of happiness; and who knows for sure if there is transmigration anyway, maybe you die and that's that. Might as well have some kind of fun while we are here.' I didn't think this was a very good thought so I sought consolation by creating this post. I have to say, however uncertain, that overall I think I feel better and have less stress in my new life. I still do activities to satisfy my desires for sensual pleasure in more benign ways by going hiking in the mountains, riding my bike or something. I wondered if this desire for sensual pleasures would ever subside. I am informed by many in their replies that it would not completely subside until the stage of arahat. At that point, I suspect desires for sensual pleasure will be satisfied by the contentment of the Jhanas and knowing. I am comforted by knowing from some replies in other groups that there are those who have felt and experienced this. metta, nori 34728 From: buddhatrue Date: Thu Jul 22, 2004 2:00am Subject: Egypt Post: Suffering Dear Friends, Let me share a story about the suffering inherent in life. I have a friend who is spending two weeks in Agami with his brother, cousins, and parents. Agami is a small town on the Red Sea that has very little to offer in the way of entertainment. There are no malls, movie theatres, and very few shops and restaurants. In a word, it is BORING! I have been calling my friend periodically to see how his stay is going. I have heard various tales about what he and his friends have done to eliminate the boredom. First, they rented motorcycles and drove them around, but that didn't last. Then they looked for easy girls and/or prostitutes to have sex, but that didn't last. Then they went swimming for several days, but that didn't last. Then they bought beer and got drunk, but that didn't last. Finally, they ran out of things to do. My friend got so depressed and despondent that he told me that he has been thinking a few times about throwing himself in the ocean. (Of course he wouldn't do it, he assured me, but he was thinking about it). The last time I called him he told me that he got food poisoning and that he was dizzy and constantly going to the bathroom. I said that I was sorry to hear that and that he should take some medicine right away. He told me that his dad wasn't back with the car yet and that he would ask him when he came back, even though he had been sick like this for practically a whole day! I told him that he needed to hurry up and get some medicine and he told me, "Don't worry about it. Actually, I'm glad I got food poisoning. At least it's some kind of entertainment." I couldn't believe my ears! Aren't we all like this? Aren't we all trying to devise as many ways as we can to escape the suffering that is inherent in life? As my example illustrates, the desire to escape this suffering can become so great that even food poisoning turns into a form of entertainment. My friend now thinks that everything will be much better for him when he ends this "mandatory vacation" and returns to the big city, but will it? What he doesn't realize is that the intense suffering he is feeling now will also follow him to the big city. Sure, he will have a lot more things to do to distract him from this suffering, but it will still be there. Even if he kills himself, he will just be reborn somewhere else and the suffering will continue. When I ponder this quagmire of suffering that we are all caught in, and the only solution for us all that the Buddha found, my appreciation of the Buddhadhamma grows to a point beyond description. Just thought I would share. Metta, James 34729 From: christine_forsyth Date: Thu Jul 22, 2004 5:10am Subject: Re: Consolation/Eric Hello Eric, No the person hasn't died yet, though several times in the last ten days she has given great cause for concern. (My lady mother has been in and out of intensive care - currently she is 'out' in an ordinary room and undergoing never-ending tests. Her condition fluctuates, and with it our emotions. Just another frail elderly woman, but all the world to us. ) Kisagatami has always been a favourite - I used to work in Maternity before moving over to Emergency Department, ICU, and medical wards. I can recall thinking initially that the Buddha ought to have offered more comfort to the bereaved young mother, maybe even a miracle {I smile at that now} - but have grown to see that he was gently leading her to realise the truth of her loss, and normalise her grief as part of the common suffering that all beings inescapably experience. Thank you for the article "Crossing the Creek" - I've paid the 'print it yourself' fee and find it very suitable for work at the hospital, and will give it to colleagues as well. metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- 34730 From: Rangana Mudunkotuwa Date: Thu Jul 22, 2004 2:49am Subject: Re: [dsg] Got in a fight but all is right hi friends i am sinhalese lady dont you have any thing in sinhala thanks >From: "Philip" >Reply-To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com >To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com >Subject: Re: [dsg] Got in a fight but all is right >Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 11:40:05 -0000 > > > Hi Sarah > > > S: of course there are suttas specifically about the 8 worldly >conditions: > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an08-006.html > > Ph: Thanks for that. Funny, I'd printed out most of the AN suttas >available at Access to Insight but had missed that one. > > (snip) 34731 From: christine_forsyth Date: Thu Jul 22, 2004 5:12am Subject: Re: Consolation/Sarah Hello Sarah, Intellectually I know that worry is dosa which arises because of attachment and lack of really understanding anatta. I wonder just how many lives I have yet to live before I can regard my mother's worsening health with indifference. Nanda's mother is quite a way further down the Path than I! I am worried enough about my son going for six months backpacking through Cambodia, Thailand, Syria, India and Nepal starting next week - I can't imagine an ordinary human being reacting like Nanda's mother. And, of course, she wasn't an ordinary human being - she was one of the holy ones. [I was hoping it was a Jataka tale (smile), but I see it truly is a sutta]. I found the Ven. Bhikkhu Dhammapiyo's (BTW where is he now?) post regarding the Buddha's discourse to the Kosalan ... thanks for mentioning it. It is a real help. The Buddha was quite uncompromising when speaking of reality - the truth of the Truth- speaker's words doesn't change. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/3921 metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- 34732 From: christine_forsyth Date: Thu Jul 22, 2004 5:14am Subject: Re: Consolation/Bill Hello Bill, I found the article by Ajahn Chah "Our Real Home" at: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/leaves/bl111.html Thank you. I hadn't read it before, but have it in my favourites now - and, among other vital truths - it reminded me of the irredeemable debt of gratitude we owe our parents: "One who is nursing parents should fill his or her mind with warmth and kindness, not get caught in aversion. This is the one time when you can repay the debt you owe them. From your birth through your childhood, as you've grown up, you've been dependent on your parents. That we are here today is because our mothers and fathers have helped us in so many ways. We owe them an incredible debt of gratitude." and "These are the only parents you've got. They gave you life, they have been your teachers, your nurses and your doctors -- they've been everything to you. That they have brought you up, taught you, shared their wealth with you and made you their heirs is the great beneficence of parents. Consequently the Buddha taught the virtues of kataññu and katavedi, of knowing our debt of gratitude and trying to repay it." metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- 34733 From: christine_forsyth Date: Thu Jul 22, 2004 5:16am Subject: Re: Consolation/Philip Hello Philip, Here is another translation that doesn't use the word 'sturdy'..which may have been an affectionate description of the physical or psychological attributes of the Bhikkhuni ... I.1 -- An Anonymous Bhikkhuni {v. 1} "Sleep, little theri, sleep comfortably, wrapped in the robe that you've made, for your passion is stilled -- like a pot of pickled greens boiled dry." I also think about death on a daily basis - I can hardly avoid it in my work - but I think this is a good thing. Yes, I remember the tradition of reciting a person's good deeds - I think it has to do with mental factors attached to the cuti- citta 'the death consciousness' and it's role in determining where one's next life will be. Keeping a person calm and aware of good deeds may condition a kusala citta to arise at just the right time. (I'm sure if I've got this a little wrong, someone will tell me :-)) Though it sounds a little like eternalism, the Buddha DID tell a husband and wife how to ensure they would be together after death. It is a sutta in the Anguttara Nikaya: 5. Pañhamasamajãvãsuttaü - The first on living, on equal status. 006.05. At one time the Blessed One was living in the deer park in the Besakala forest among the Sumsumara peaks in the Bhagga country. The Blessed One putting on robes in the morning and taking bowl and robes approached the home of the householder Nakulapita, and sat on the prepared seat. The householder Nakulapita and his wife approached the Blessed One, worshipped and sat on a side. Then the householder Nakulapita said thus to the Blessed One. Venerable sir, from the day I brought Nakulamata in her childhood, even as a child, I do not know of her mind looking outside, and never desiring outside bodily contacts. Venerable sir, we desire to know each other here and now, so also here after. Then the householder's wife, Nakulamata too said thus to the Blessed One. Venerable sir, from the day I was brought by Nakulapita in my childhood, even as a child I do not know of his mind looking outside, and never desiring outside bodily contacts. Venerable sir, we desire to know each other here and now, so also here after. Householders, if husband and wife wish to know each other here and now, both should be endowed with the same measure of faith, virtues, benevolence, and wisdom. Then they will know each other here after as well. Both virtuous, generous, restrained and living righteously They are the couple who speak to each other lovingly. Results would be abundant, the living together will be meaningful. Enemies, of the two with equal virtues, would be unhappy The couple will lead a happy life here and now And enjoy heavenly sensual bliss after death. www.metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/4Anguttara-Nikaya/ Anguttara2/4- catukkanipata/006-punnabhisandavaggo-e.htm metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- 34734 From: christine_forsyth Date: Thu Jul 22, 2004 5:17am Subject: Re: Consolation/Nina Hello Nina, Thank you for your post. It's sentiments are very like those expressed by by Ajahn Chah in the article Bill recommended. Life is short, it dwindles down in suffering towards death. It is the same for all of us. That's just the way it is. Yes, I agree with you, we should make the most of this short time - but how hard it is to arouse samvega, even with the appropriate 'sources of emotion', birth, old age, disease, and death. metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that we think we have time--- 34735 From: christine_forsyth Date: Thu Jul 22, 2004 5:24am Subject: For Rangana Mudunkotuwa Hello Rangana, There are translations of the suttas in Pali, English, and Sinhala at: http://www.metta.lk/tipitaka/ but probably you were already aware of that site? metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Rangana Mudunkotuwa" wrote: > hi friends > > i am sinhalese lady > dont you have any thing in sinhala > > thanks > 34736 From: Date: Thu Jul 22, 2004 1:51am Subject: Re: [dsg] Egypt Post: Suffering Hi, James - In a message dated 7/22/04 5:04:02 AM Eastern Daylight Time, buddhatrue@y... writes: > > Dear Friends, > > Let me share a story about the suffering inherent in life. I have a > friend who is spending two weeks in Agami with his brother, cousins, > and parents. Agami is a small town on the Red Sea that has very > little to offer in the way of entertainment. There are no malls, > movie theatres, and very few shops and restaurants. In a word, it > is BORING! I have been calling my friend periodically to see how > his stay is going. I have heard various tales about what he and his > friends have done to eliminate the boredom. First, they rented > motorcycles and drove them around, but that didn't last. Then they > looked for easy girls and/or prostitutes to have sex, but that > didn't last. Then they went swimming for several days, but that > didn't last. Then they bought beer and got drunk, but that didn't > last. Finally, they ran out of things to do. My friend got so > depressed and despondent that he told me that he has been thinking a > few times about throwing himself in the ocean. (Of course he > wouldn't do it, he assured me, but he was thinking about it). The > last time I called him he told me that he got food poisoning and > that he was dizzy and constantly going to the bathroom. I said that > I was sorry to hear that and that he should take some medicine right > away. He told me that his dad wasn't back with the car yet and that > he would ask him when he came back, even though he had been sick > like this for practically a whole day! I told him that he needed to > hurry up and get some medicine and he told me, "Don't worry about > it. Actually, I'm glad I got food poisoning. At least it's some > kind of entertainment." I couldn't believe my ears! > > Aren't we all like this? Aren't we all trying to devise as many > ways as we can to escape the suffering that is inherent in life? As > my example illustrates, the desire to escape this suffering can > become so great that even food poisoning turns into a form of > entertainment. My friend now thinks that everything will be much > better for him when he ends this "mandatory vacation" and returns to > the big city, but will it? What he doesn't realize is that the > intense suffering he is feeling now will also follow him to the big > city. Sure, he will have a lot more things to do to distract him > from this suffering, but it will still be there. Even if he kills > himself, he will just be reborn somewhere else and the suffering > will continue. > > When I ponder this quagmire of suffering that we are all caught in, > and the only solution for us all that the Buddha found, my > appreciation of the Buddhadhamma grows to a point beyond > description. Just thought I would share. > > Metta, James > ========================= Thank you for this post! You have hit on something here that I believe is *very* important yet rarely discussed - the dukkha of boredom! As you often do, you have zeroed in on something incredibly important, especially when you wrote the following in speaking of your friend: "The last time I called him he told me that he got food poisoning and that he was dizzy and constantly going to the bathroom. I said that I was sorry to hear that and that he should take some medicine right away. He told me that his dad wasn't back with the car yet and that he would ask him when he came back, even though he had been sick like this for practically a whole day! I told him that he needed to hurry up and get some medicine and he told me, 'Don't worry about it. Actually, I'm glad I got food poisoning. At least it's some kind of entertainment.' I couldn't believe my ears!" It is true that we strange creatures will run even towards what is painful and harmful in order to escape boredom. Among the chief things we crave is excitement, and we will often be willing to pay an extreme price for it. Years ago the actor, George Sanders, committed suicide. He left a simple note of explanation: "I'm bored" it read. Until (and if) we reach the point where excitement is no longer craved, what, besides being aware of that craving, can we do to avoid the excesses it can lead to? I think that we must "start where we are" and engage in a form of sublimation. If we crave what is "exciting, different, and unusual," then let us look among all such things for any that might have genuine value to them and little harm, and let us direct our energies there. There are many such things, and for those of us who have had some of our eye-dust removed and have come to glimpse the truth of the Dhamma, the jhanas rank highly among those dhammas that are kusala but also "exciting, different, and unusual" and worthy of acquiring if not mastering. I put this out, along with cultivation of constant attention to whatever arises "at ordinary times", as a suggestion to be considered by us for the "solution" to the dukkha of boredom. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 34737 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Thu Jul 22, 2004 6:58am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Anapanasati Sutta Hi, Eric --- ericlonline wrote: > Hey All, ... > E: Do you breath? If so, then Anapanasati is appropriate for you. OK > that was a bit extreme but you know what I mean. :-) J: Yes, I agree ;-)). There are opportunities for anapanasati for every being who breathes (namely, at times when breath is the object of consciousness). However, the Anapanasati Sutta deals with mindfulness of breathing in a very particular circumstances, and I don't think there is much there that applies to you and me at the present moment. ... > E: What do you mean here Jon about the 'dhamma has disappeared'? J: I mean that, according to the texts, the teaching that is peculiar to a Buddha does not remain but gradually gets corrupted and forgotten until it disappears altogether. Some time later an new Buddha will arise and reintroduce the teaching. > E: IMHO insight will not arise without samatha. I dont > think 'insight' can be cultivated but concentration sure can be. My > first meditation teacher said that there is no such thing as > Vipassana meditation practice. He said, "It is called Satipatthana. > Vipassana arises as a result of the correct practice of > Satipatthana." J: I think for most purposes we can treat vipassana and satipatthana as synonyms. Both refer to the direct awareness of and insight into a presently arising dhamma (reality). > If you look at Satipatthana and Anapanasati, they would seem to have > more in common then not. The 4 foundations correspond to the 4 > tetrads of Anapanasati. J: In my view, the Anapanasati Sutta is not about the development of anapanasati for beginners but about how a person skilled in anapanasati can, while continuing with that development, also develop insight to the point of enlightenment with jhana as base. > And here is one that is going to make you think (I hope). Buddhadasa > said that real Vipassana does not arise until step 13 of > Anapanasati. If that is true, coupled with the comments of how > difficult Anapanasati is above, then what are all the 'Vipassana' > meditators really doing? J: I think this observation may depend on a particular interpretation of the Anapanasati Sutta that I do not share ;-)) Jon 34738 From: buddhatrue Date: Thu Jul 22, 2004 7:25am Subject: Re: Egypt Post: Suffering Friend Howard, Howard: There are many such things, and for those of us who have had some of our eye-dust removed and have come to glimpse the truth of the Dhamma, the jhanas rank highly among those dhammas that are kusala but also "exciting, different, and unusual" and worthy of acquiring if not mastering. I put this out, along with cultivation of constant attention to whatever arises "at ordinary times", as a suggestion to be considered by us for the "solution" to the dukkha of boredom. James: Yes, I very much agree with you. I have taught my friend meditation and encouraged him to practice it (He isn't Buddhist, but he wants to develop my psychic abilities; to him, they are "so cool" ;-). But, like many people, he is attracted to how `exciting, different, and unusual' meditation is but isn't willing to put forth the effort to do it. Meditation is hard work! But to those who practice, the rewards are truly phenomenal…better than popcorn and a movie! ;-)). Metta, James 34739 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Thu Jul 22, 2004 7:33am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Anapanasati Sutta Hi, Herman --- Herman Hofman wrote: > Hi Jon, > > > >That may be so, but shouldn't we be more concerned with what the texts > >have to say about it? > > I am quoting the above without a context, because I feel that the above > line typifies your general emphasis, which is not on the "it", nor the > application of the "it", it is on the texts, as texts. I would say that the emphasis is on the texts as the best source of the teachings of the Buddha who, as far as I can tell, knew all about the 'it' and explained the 'it' in as great detail and as many ways as he could in the time available > Now it is true, the texts are there, so they are a possible candidate > for emphasis, even undue emphasis. But it requires a very large stretch > of the imagination to consider the texts as a unit, a whole. As an > example, I am attempting to demonstrate elsewhere that there are very > large divides between the original statement of dependent origination, > which is a whole in itself, to the Patthana and its treatment of > paccaya, quite another whole, to the treatment of it all in the Vis. An interesting hypothesis. I am a little puzzled as to how someone who has never read the Abhidhamma could have come to a positive conclusion on the matter (other than by reliance on others' writings ;-)) but I look forward to your further posts on the subject. ... > This leaves us in a place of greater self-reliance than where we started > from. > > There are alternatives to the "texts only" approach, but this post is > long enough as it is :-) Thanks for sharing your thoughts. A closing question: Have you ever learnt anything truly of value that does not form part of the teachings as recorded in the texts? Jon 34740 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Thu Jul 22, 2004 7:44am Subject: Re: [dsg] Dependent Origination and Kamma Hi, Howard I believe I detect in your comments below at least a nod in the direction of kusala being able to arise unprompted by conscious effort on our part ;-)). Once one accepts that, it puts a different complexion on the possibility of awareness and understanding arising at times other than those times when the thought is in our mind. I was pleased to see your reference to the importance of pariyatti. It is a necessary first step, in my view. Jon --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Jon - > > In a message dated 7/21/04 11:09:59 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > jonoabb@y... writes: > > > Hi, Howard > > > > --- upasaka@a... wrote: >Hi, all - ... > Well, how kusala or not I can't say. But as far as effort is > concerned, the Buddha recommended it in the form of right effort, which > as I understand > it has four aspects: effort to enable kusala states to arise, effort to > increase kusala states that have already arisen, effort to lessen > akusala states > already arisen, and effort to prevent new akusala states from arising. > Now, I > believe that conscious effort is an important condition for achieving > this, but, > in any case, I understand the efforts coming under "right effort" to be > subtle for the most part, consisting very little in confrontational > attempts at > direct, forceful mind control, but much more in engaging in regular > preparation > by contemplation of the Dhamma, calming the mind through sila and > samadhi, and, > with a degree of understanding and right intention as background > developed by > such study and training, cultivating, by regular practice, a high level > of > consistent attention and mindfulness in order to "see" what's happening. > > Maintaining a high level of consistent attention to engage in the > kusala/akusala > monitoring is like standing guard at the gate of the city, watching > carefully who > is entering or trying to, and responding according to instructions: stop > the > terrorists (akusala), but permit - even encourage - the good visitors > (kusala). > Such a guard requires prior instruction (pariyatti) and much hands-on > training (patipatti) to properly carry out his responsibilities. > > With metta, > Howard 34741 From: ericlonline Date: Thu Jul 22, 2004 11:54am Subject: Re: Anapanasati Sutta Hey Jon, ... > E: Do you breath? If so, then Anapanasati is appropriate for you. OK that was a bit extreme but you know what I mean. :-) J: Yes, I agree ;-)). There are opportunities for anapanasati for every being who breathes (namely, at times when breath is the object of consciousness). However, the Anapanasati Sutta deals with mindfulness of breathing in a very particular circumstances, and I don't think there is much there that applies to you and me at the present moment. E: Dont sell yourself short Jon. No one knows what the next moment may bring! ... > E: What do you mean here Jon about the 'dhamma has disappeared'? J: I mean that, according to the texts, the teaching that is peculiar to a Buddha does not remain but gradually gets corrupted and forgotten until it disappears altogether. Some time later an new Buddha will arise and reintroduce the teaching. E: Yes, I have read it before. The old 500 years and that is it for the Dhamma. Just did not think many people believed it. It seems to undermine ones practice. Almost a resignation that you have to wait your turn for the next turning of the wheel. Why shoot yourself in the foot? "He who sees Dependent Origination sees the Dhamma and he who sees the Dhamma sees the Buddha." -- > E: IMHO insight will not arise without samatha. I dont > think 'insight' can be cultivated but concentration sure can be. My > first meditation teacher said that there is no such thing as > Vipassana meditation practice. He said, "It is called Satipatthana. > Vipassana arises as a result of the correct practice of > Satipatthana." J: I think for most purposes we can treat vipassana and satipatthana as synonyms. Both refer to the direct awareness of and insight into a presently arising dhamma (reality). E: I dont think so Jon. There is a big difference between the foundation or frame of reference one is looking thru and the insights that 'may' arise. If they were the same, then everyone would 'realise' the same insight once the frame was set up and that surely is not the case now is it? ---- E> If you look at Satipatthana and Anapanasati, they would seem to have more in common then not. The 4 foundations correspond to the 4 > tetrads of Anapanasati. J: In my view, the Anapanasati Sutta is not about the development of anapanasati for beginners but about how a person skilled in anapanasati can, while continuing with that development, also develop insight to the point of enlightenment with jhana as base. E: Yes this is the commentarial view of it right? Use Anapanasati to develope jhana between steps 4 and 5. But there is no mention of jhana in the Sutta itself. Why? Here is what Thanissaro says about the Anapanasati Sutta in his intro to it. "One of the most important texts for beginning and veteran meditators alike..." May I ask you a personal question? Have you ever been instructed in Anapanasati by a senior monk or meditator? Have you ever practised it in earnest? ---- > And here is one that is going to make you think (I hope). Buddhadasa said that real Vipassana does not arise until step 13 of > Anapanasati. If that is true, coupled with the comments of how > difficult Anapanasati is above, then what are all the 'Vipassana' > meditators really doing? J: I think this observation may depend on a particular interpretation of the Anapanasati Sutta that I do not share ;-)) E: You sound like my first meditation teacher. He did not hold Buddhadasa up to much esteem either. Although I have never met him, I have met a handful of his students who had many rains. They are all upstanding monks. Even those that were not his students and had met him show nothing but a deep respect for him. If emptiness arises in meditation then what Buddhadasa had to say in this regards has a lot of merit! PEACE E 34742 From: ericlonline Date: Thu Jul 22, 2004 0:16pm Subject: Re: Consolation/Eric Hey Christine, C > No the person hasn't died yet, though several times in the last ten days she has given great cause for concern. (My lady mother has been in and out of intensive care - currently she is 'out' in an ordinary room and undergoing never-ending tests. Her condition fluctuates, and with it our emotions. Just another frail elderly woman, but all the world to us. ) E > I am so sorry to hear that. But you are fortunate to have such good relations with your mom. I am at odds with mine currently (long story). C > Kisagatami has always been a favourite - I used to work in Maternity before moving over to Emergency Department, ICU, and medical wards. E > Are you a nurse? You sound like one of the complete strangers that nursed me back to health when I had an emergency appendectomy from an almost septic appendix last summer. They rekindled my faith in humanity! C > I can recall thinking initially that the Buddha ought to have offered more comfort to the bereaved young mother, maybe even a miracle {I smile at that now} - but have grown to see that he was gently leading her to realise the truth of her loss, and normalise her grief as part of the common suffering that all beings inescapably experience. E > Yes, quite an amazing teacher now wasn't he! And only using a mustard seed none the less! No doctries or long drawn out analysis. :-) C > Thank you for the article "Crossing the Creek" - I've paid the 'print it yourself' fee and find it very suitable for work at the hospital, and will give it to colleagues as well. E > You are more than welcome! metta and peace, Christine Indeed PEACE & Love, E 34743 From: Herman Hofman Date: Thu Jul 22, 2004 3:50pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Is sensual pleasure and stimulation necessary for a healthy life? Hi Nori, Thank you for your post. I can relate to what you are saying. James is writing on the same wavelength too. (Thanks, James :-)) There is another sensual pleasure I am aware of which, when it goes unnoticed, is a big black hole that soaks up all the effort and determination a person can muster and brings them to naught. It is the feeding of the intellect, the thinking machine. It does not matter what the activity is, it is the motivation that underlies the activity that bears its fruit. Even the filling of the mind with wholesome thoughts and ideas can be just a smokescreen to avert the awareness from the intolerable dukkha of "just being". And as long as that dukkha is prevented from rising to awareness, we will keep feeding that untamed monster, the mind, as though we are feeding a dearly-loved friend. All the best Herman hi Dhamma friends, Thank you Andrew and Huajun for your comments. The reason for my post ... Throughout most of my life I have kept myself happy with - (apart from the striving for becoming to satisfy my ego) ... sensual pleasures; pursuing them and indulging in them. 34744 From: Date: Thu Jul 22, 2004 0:41pm Subject: The Importance of Concentration in One Sentence Hi, all - In the Upanissa Sutta, the Buddha said "Knowledge & vision of things as they actually are present has concentration as its prerequisite." With metta, Howard P.S. This doesn't say "sole prerequisite," and it doesn't say how *much* concentration, though it must be enough to bother talking about(!), and, IMO, this statement says enough for one to realize on the basis of it not to shortchange concentration, because a prerequisite is a *necessary* condition - a "without which, not" condition! /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 34745 From: christine_forsyth Date: Thu Jul 22, 2004 5:25pm Subject: Re: Anapanasati Sutta Hello Eric,(Jon), all, ... Butting in briefly ... The Anapansati Sutta has been a Hot Topic on dsg, with many people holding differing opinions. If you go to Useful Posts and read the 59 posts (!) there under 'A' Anapanasati (Breath Meditation) starting at post number 2141 of 29 Nov. 2000, you may find much food for thought and, I'll bet, further discussion. (smile) http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/ metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "ericlonline" 34746 From: kenhowardau Date: Thu Jul 22, 2004 7:53pm Subject: Eternalism on ATI Hi All, The website, Access to Insight (ATI), is often quoted as a resource on DSG. After a brief examination of the site, I find myself in disagreement with the main viewpoints espoused by its publisher, John Bullitt, and its chief contributor, Bhikkhu Thanissaro. I interpret their general opinion to be as follows: There clearly is a self, and it would be ridiculous to say otherwise. However, thoughts of self (and of not-self) agitate the mind and an agitated mind is not free. Therefore, when we meditate, we put aside thoughts of self. After completely freeing our minds in this way, we will no longer need the anatta technique and we will be free to enjoy the eternal bliss of Nibbana. (end of my summary) It is none of my business that ATI would want to disseminate such views, but I can't help worrying about beginners who might go to that site for guidance. It is, after all, a good source of sutta translations. If any DSG members disagree with my assessment, please say so, I would be happy to be corrected. If my reservations are correct, however, people should be fully aware of this issue when they use and direct others to ATI. Kind regards, Ken H 34747 From: Sukin Date: Thu Jul 22, 2004 10:12pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Anapanasati Sutta Hi Rob, > I also wanted to apologize to Sukin for not replying to his last post > on the topic of meditation, which is related to this thread. I have > been contemplating his post for about a month, and still haven't > gotten it together to reply properly. Sukin, I'm still working on it! No need to apologize Rob. Though I was expecting a reply and wondered why you han't responded, I too have been quite busy and would have had difficulty finding time to respond. But I do look forward to any post from you and appreciate this one that you now reposted. ;-) Metta, Sukin > --- Robert Epstein wrote: > > > Sorry, Jon, > I found this message from > > what > > seems to be a couple of months ago. Sorry that it slipped through the > > cracks. > > Although you know that I personally believe that mindfulness of > > breathing is a > > useful focus for all who want to develop mindfulness, I certainly find > > your > > argument interesting and am glad to have such a clear statement of it. > > I don't > > doubt that those whom Buddha was addressing in this sutta were advanced > > practitioners and that this may have had some influence on the subject > > matter, but > > i don't think that it rules out the usefulness of what he is describing. > > > > If you feel that mindfulness of breathing is very difficult and > reserved > > for those > > who have already cultivated samatha with breathing as object, it seems > > to me that > > you would also acknowledge the extreme difficulty of actually perceiving > > the > > arisal of rupas and namas in the moment, as is the aim of Abhidhamma. > > Could > > anything be more difficult than that? > > > Best, > > Rob Ep. 34748 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Jul 23, 2004 0:43am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Zzz Zzz Zzz practice.... Hi Herman, --- Herman Hofman wrote: > Hi Sarah, > > By coincidence, I was just doing a bit of browsing re the seven factors > that lead to hibernation :-) You are not mentioned in the list at all, > so rest easy. > > Hibernation happens for many reasons, ego mostly :-) > > I missed you too and nice to have you and Jon back. .... S: Many thanks for your kind comments and welcome. Look forward to reading the other six factors in due course :-) Herman, you’ve been raising a number of interesting (and controversial of course) issues, many of which I’d be glad to discuss further. If you don’t mind, I’ll just give some cryptic comments in point form for now -- plunging into any controversy -- and see what happens: 1. D.O. -variations in order and sequence. I quoted a passage from the Dispeller on the reasons for this before and I think BB discusses the same order as the Mahapadana sutta in his intro to the Mahanidana sutta. By ‘mind and body’ are meant the cetasikas and rupas in this context, conditioning cittas and vice versa. 2. The fact that much of the Pali canon was uttered by other Theras does not mean it cannot be regarded as Word and Doctrine of the Buddha (Buddhavacana). Lots more on this before which I can fish out. The first ch in the commentary to the Udana, Enlightenment, starts with several pages discussing ‘eva.m me sutta.m’ and its various meanings. One brief quote from here for consideration: “...the Word of the Lord is ‘one whose Dhamma, meaning, teaching and piercing are profound’. It ‘reaches the ear-channel of all beings in a manner suited their own individual mode of speech (bhaasa)’, since one sole bellow of Dhamma-teaching on the part of the Lord, occurring within a single moment, simultaneously reaches the grasp of beings of divers modes of speech by way of each one’s own mode of speech - for unthinkable is the Buddha-majesty of the Buddhas.” Another meaning refers to the fact “I am not a Self-Evolved One; it was not by me that this was realised.” Elsewhere we’ve given quotes to stress that whatever was spoken by the Theras in conformity with the Teachings is the Buddha’s Word. 3. You say ‘there is no mention of an abhidhamma at the First Council’. I’ve quoted extensively before from the commentary to the Vinaya and Expositor which discuss the 3 Pitakas as rehearsed at the First Council, usually referred to as the Dhamma-Vinaya. What are you basing your comment on? 4. MN143 - great sutta, thanks. Yes, it takes up a lot less space than our posts or the Abhidhamma. However, Anathapindika was a sotapanna and had been listening to the Buddha direct for a long time before he was able to fully appreciate these words on detachment from clinging to the senses as given by Sariputta to him on his death-bed. We need to hear and consider again and again, I think. 5. Pariyatti. I think we can put it that associating with the wise etc are the conditions for pariyatti leading to patipatti to develop. If there’s no hearing or considering, no patipatti. They must refer to understanding rather than ‘learning the Scriptures by heart’. Again in the Udana comy, Meghiya ch, it discusses at length the expression in the Udana ‘One with a lovely friend (kalyaa.namitto) and how it’s primary for living the Brahmacariya and ‘pre-eminent on account of its being of great service to all skilled states, conduces to liberation of heart’s full maturity by way of causing there to be purified (the faculties of) faith and so on that are as yet unpurified.’ Now, I think again, it always comes back to wisdom and conditions for one’s own reflection and understanding to grow rather than any situational requirements such as having to jet off to Bangkok ;-). I wrote a post quite recently lots of quotes on the meaning of ‘sappurisa’ (good friend). Let me know if you missed it! 6. Hearing vs Reading and your ‘quirky’ ‘chasm’ - again I think it comes back to conditions and understanding which change from moment to moment. One can day-dream whilst reading or listening for example. 7. Discrediting the Dhamma definitely started as soon as the Buddha started teaching, not just after with writing. 8. Sabba Sutta and TB’s comments - lots of discussion before. See ‘Sabba’ in U.P. if at all inclined to pursue. Of course in the case you gave, TB’s comments on the commentary are his speculations, but the commentary itself is factual and in conformity with the suttas and other texts;-). That’s it for now. Metta, Sarah > It was snowing here this morning. It was a condition for me to feel cold > :-) .... S: Lots of lobha just thinking about our walks out into deep snow on Swiss mountains - a couple of days a year is enough for our ‘fix’:-) =================== 34749 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Jul 23, 2004 1:10am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: some caution and non-advice Dear Bhinnatta, You had some great discussions with KenH and others while we were away. There were several comments you made that I put aside to discuss further, but I’m checking to see if you’re around before I say too much. Just a couple of examples here: --- Sujjhana Bhinnatta wrote: > The Kathavatthu's contribution was precisely in eliminating the > absolutist, > essentialist, or reductionist perspectives. "No one reading the > excessively > long debate in the Kathavatthu on the conception of a person could > assert > that the Abhidhamma deals with ultimate realities." (Kalupahana in A > History > of Buddhist Philosophy, p145) .... S: I discussed a similar point with another friend, Michael. I think Kalupahana is very much in error in his assessment of the Kathavatthu which most definitely deals with paramattha dhammas (ultimate realities): From the comy to the first chapter: ‘Real’; not taken as an effect of magic or mirage, actual. “ultimate’: highest sense, not taken from tradition, or hearsay. ‘Known’ as one of the fifty-seven ultimates of our conscious experience.’ The purpose of the first chapter is indeed to show that the teachings are concerned with truths or ultimate realities and that ‘the conception of a person’ is not an ultimate reality. I also disagree with your comments at the end of this post, but am more than happy to discuss them further, especially the ones on the Abhidhamma texts. I think we have a different understanding on ‘ultimate realities’ and this is a recurring theme on DSG;-). One other brief comment you made related to BB’s note on p.136 on dhammaaramma.na. He was merely listing and discussing the various kinds of objects of cittas in a mind-door process.He wrote: ‘Citta is also a type of mental object. Though citta experiences objects, citta in turn can become an object.’ You wondered about whether a citta or cetasika can be the object of awareness in isolation, but in fact, there is only ever one object of a citta, accompanied by its retinue of cetasikas which may include awareness. This can be any of those objects including the citta that has just fallen away such as seeing or hearing consciousness. I’ll wait to hear from you before confusing everyone further. These were all good points you raised. Metta, Sarah ===== B: > Eliminating this belief in "ultimate realities," one is able to explain > the > contents of the Abhidhamma in terms of the two main teachings of the > Buddha, > namely anatta and paticcasamuppada. <...> > The vibhanga then is an analytical process attempting to determine the > contextual meaning of a concept. Thus giving any ultimate reality to > these > concepts, consists in just the type of wrong view being discussed by > Moggaliputta-tissa in the Kathavatthu and by later Buddhists in the > perfection of wisdom literature (Vajracchedika). Furthermore, it must be > seen by the student of Abhidhamma that giving absolute status to such > concepts is not in line with the Buddha's teaching on anatta. <.....> 34750 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Jul 23, 2004 1:46am Subject: Re: [dsg] Basic thoughts on Sati (awareness), Samahdi (concentration) and Anapana Hi Nori & All, I’m very glad to read your posts again- I always enjoy your reflections and the sharing of your reading, dilemmas and practice. I’m touching on two of your posts here: --- nori wrote: > hi all, > Examples of scattered and focused Sati/mindfulness/Awareness: > > Lets say we are sitting in a room and there are lots of people > talking. If we do not focus our awareness we would hear just an > ocean of sounds. However, our awareness is directable, and > concentrate-able so we can, by our will and intention, focus on a > particular person, and a particular voice, and now when we do this, > we can 'discern' that one voice, his words and then interpret what > he is saying. > > Another example: You stop while driving for directions and while > someone is telling you directions, somebody else in the car is > talking to you. Now your awareness is split up between both people > talking to you. It is more likely that since your awareness was > divided, that you will not retain those directions; where as if you > had focused your complete attention/awareness on the person giving > you the directions, you would have had a more intense/distinct > experience of it, and you would retain the experience better in this > case. .... S: I think these are good examples of what we’re used to considering as being mindfulness or awareness conventionally but they are not examples, as I understand, of sati accompanying all wholesome consciousness and particularly not of sati in satipatthana which is not a focussing or ‘retaining in memory’. This kind of focussing or retaining you describe is seldom wholesome as I see it and doesn’t require a Buddha to teach it. Kids playing computer games are experts! ... Jumping to your ‘is sensual pleasure......’ post, I thought it was beautifully written and raised important concerns. I think the difficulties and stress related that your refer to tend to be related to deeply-held ideas of self and control and setting of rules for ourselves. It’s one thing to see the value in reflecting on and appreciating the dangers of sensual pleasures and another to try and orchestrate a lifestyle that is devoid of these, not realizing that the accumulated tendencies and attachments can arise at anytime, whether on the mountain bike (I’m keenly following Lance Armstrong in the Tour du France), in the forest or kuti. Wishing that sensual pleasures would subside is bound to lead to more stress because at these times there is no equanimity, but merely more ‘disquietness of heart’. This doesn’t mean I’m advocating you revert to ‘your typical American life’, but understand that whatever namas or rupas arise now, are conditioned and can be known. In a post to Christine, I referred to a sutta about Uttara, Nanda’s mother, who experienced no ‘disquietness of heart’ when her son was slain and so on. The reason I find such suttas to be so very inspiring is certainly not because there is or would be any lack of ‘disquietness’ in my own heart, but because life is so very tough when we experience great loss and to a lesser extent on a daily basis, that it is with great appreciation and gratiude that we can read about those ‘sappurisa’ or noble friends who penetrated the Truths, developed wisdom with detachment and found the way to overcome Suffering in its deepest sense as applying to all conditioned dhammas. As James put it: “When I ponder this quagmire of suffering that we are all caught in, and the only solution for us all that the Buddha found, my appreciation of the Buddhadhamma grows to a point beyond description.” Metta, Sarah ====== - 34751 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Jul 23, 2004 2:17am Subject: Re: [dsg] sensual pleasures increase craving Hi Antony, It's good to see you around again. --- Antony Woods wrote: > Buddha said: > > "...beings not free from passion for sensual pleasures -- > devoured by sensual craving, burning with sensual fever -- > indulge in sensual pleasures. The more they indulge in > sensual pleasures, the more their sensual craving > increases and the more they burn with sensual fever..." > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/majjhima/mn075.html .... Thank you for referring us to this sutta which contains many wonderful passages. I like these ones later on in the sutta too (Nanamoli/Bodhi transl): "So too, Maagandiya, if I were to teach you the Dhamma thus: This is that health, this is that Nibbaana,' you might know health and see Nibbaana. Together with the arising of your vision, your desire and lust for the five aggregates affected by clinging might be abandoned. Then perhaps you might think: 'Indeed, I have long been tricked, cheated, and defrauded by this mind. For when clinging, I have been clinging just to material form, I have been clinging just to feeling, I have been clinging just to perception, I have been clinging just to formations. I have been clinging just to consciousness. With my clinging as condition, being [comes to be]. with being as condition, birth; with birth as condition, ageing and death, sorow, lamentation, pain, grief, and despeair come to be. Such is the origin of this whole mass of suffering." .... Isn't it true? Aren't we tricked, cheated and defrauded by the mind all the time into thinking it's something other than the clinging to the 5 khandhas -- the sensual craving -- that is bringing all this 'whole mass of suffering'? isn't it madness to 'burn with sensual fever' on account of namas and rupas? ..... "Then, Maagandiya, associate with true men. When you associae with true men, you will hear the true Dhamma. When you hear the true Dhamma, you will practise in accordance with the true Dhamma. When you practise in accordance with the true Dhamma, you will know and see for yourself thus: 'These are diseases, turmours, and darts; but here these diseases, tumours, and darts cease without remainder. With the cessation of my clinging comes cessation of being; with the cessation of being, cessation of birth; with the cessation of birth, ageing and death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief, and despair cease. Such is the cessation of this whole mass of suffering." ..... Antony, hope you'll share some of your own reflections on these or other passages and that we all get to see the khandhas or being the diseases, tumours or darts which they are -- not worthy of clinging to. Metta, Sarah ====== 34752 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Jul 23, 2004 2:29am Subject: yahoo mail - search feature Dear Friends, I've just found out that with the recent yahoo mail changes there is now one great other improvement along with the increased memory. If you get the DSG (or other group) mail in your in box, there is an excellent search function at the top of the page which can find any mail in your files with particular terms or a name. I just used it to quickly track all the letters I've just responded to. (I used to use escribe for this, but the latter is still down. This also has the advantage of bringing up the letter for direct reply). For some people it might be worth opening a yahoo account and getting the mail in it just for this search purpose, especially if one skips at times (heh, Rob Ep) and wishes to quickly find any mail with one's name included;-) Metta, Sarah ======= 34753 From: gazita2002 Date: Fri Jul 23, 2004 2:30am Subject: Re: Egypt Post: Suffering --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: > Dear Friends, > > Let me share a story about the suffering inherent in life. I have a > friend who is spending two weeks in Agami with his brother, cousins, > and parents. Agami is a small town on the Red Sea that has very > little to offer in the way of entertainment. There are no malls, > movie theatres, and very few shops and restaurants. In a word, it > is BORING! Friend James, Why do I find this so real? because it is - for me anyway. I was even glad when my computor crashed, then I could go to town to use the internet cafe and listen to the good music they play and be surrounded by interesting looking people. I really relate to your friends in this story, it is so me! Your story has made me laugh, but I hope your friend is OK now. Food poisoning is soooooo unpleasant. I have been calling my friend periodically ntil to see how > his stay is going. I have heard various tales about what he and his > friends have done to eliminate the boredom. .....snip...... > last time I called him he told me that he got food poisoning and > that he was dizzy and constantly going to the bathroom. ....snip.... > Aren't we all like this? Aren't we all trying to devise as many > ways as we can to escape the suffering that is inherent in life? As > my example illustrates, the desire to escape this suffering can > become so great that even food poisoning turns into a form of > entertainment. My friend now thinks that everything will be much > better for him when he ends this "mandatory vacation" and returns to > the big city, but will it? What he doesn't realize is that the > intense suffering he is feeling now will also follow him to the big > city. Sure, he will have a lot more things to do to distract him > from this suffering, but it will still be there. Even if he kills > himself, he will just be reborn somewhere else and the suffering > will continue. > > When I ponder this quagmire of suffering that we are all caught in, > and the only solution for us all that the Buddha found, my > appreciation of the Buddhadhamma grows to a point beyond > description. Just thought I would share. > > Metta, James Thank you for sharing this story; a condition for me to think about the things I do to 'escape' boredom. Patience, courage and good cheer, Azita. 34754 From: Date: Fri Jul 23, 2004 1:38am Subject: Re: [dsg] Eternalism on ATI Hi, Ken - In a message dated 7/22/04 10:54:46 PM Eastern Daylight Time, kenhowardau@y... writes: > Hi All, > > The website, Access to Insight (ATI), is often quoted as a resource > on DSG. After a brief examination of the site, I find myself in > disagreement with the main viewpoints espoused by its publisher, > John Bullitt, and its chief contributor, Bhikkhu Thanissaro. > > I interpret their general opinion to be as follows: > > There clearly is a self, and it would be ridiculous to say > otherwise. > > However, thoughts of self (and of not-self) agitate the mind and an > agitated mind is not free. > > Therefore, when we meditate, we put aside thoughts of self. > > After completely freeing our minds in this way, we will no longer > need the anatta technique and we will be free to enjoy the eternal > bliss of Nibbana. > > (end of my summary) > > It is none of my business that ATI would want to disseminate such > views, but I can't help worrying about beginners who might go to > that site for guidance. It is, after all, a good source of sutta > translations. > > If any DSG members disagree with my assessment, please say so, I > would be happy to be corrected. If my reservations are correct, > however, people should be fully aware of this issue when they use > and direct others to ATI. > > Kind regards, > Ken H > =========================== I understand your concern, but I think it is incorrect to characterize the venerable's position (as given in detail on Access to Insight at the url: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/modern/thanissaro/notself.html ) as "There clearly is a self, and it would be ridiculous to say otherwise. However, thoughts of self (and of not-self) agitate the mind and an agitated mind is not free." I do *not* think he asserts that there is a self - in fact he urges one not to so assert. I see his "position" as being the "nonposition" which cautions against holding views of how things are, as opposed to directly "seeing" reality. In this regard, he seems to say that conceptual positions, whether pro-self or anti-self, all miss the mark in carrying with them substantialist or nihilist (or both) presumptions that have no relation to the way things really are, but necessarily mischaracterize reality. In particular, he warns against thinking and speaking in terms of "I have (or do not) have a self," which, of course, by turns, a) begs the question, and b) is self-contradictory. I see his position as the pragmatic one that holding a view on self, and being upset at the idea of not holding one, is a clinging to view, a clinging to concepts afflicted by reification or nihilism, which is a sabotaging substitute for direct realization of reality. I believe his point is that the Buddha did not attempt to inculcate views, but rather to provide the means to free oneself of views (and, of course, of everything else), replacing views by direct knowing. The venerable does not claim there is no reality to know, but only that the knowing must not be a matter of view, but of wisdom. Whether the venerable, in his heart of hearts, implicity tends towards substantialism-eternalism is unknown to me, but I don't think that he explicitly defends either this position or the opposite position of nihilism-annihilationism, but, in fact, is a defender of the middle way which avoids the extremes and which is reality-oriented rather than view-oriented. With all the foregoing having been said, I will yet say that I do not personaly believe there is any self or substance to be found in any dhamma anywhere. But I also realize that this belief is mostly a matter of view, and only slightly a matter of direct knowledge. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 34755 From: rjkjp1 Date: Fri Jul 23, 2004 6:32am Subject: Re: Anapanasati Sutta --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "ericlonline" <> May I ask you a personal question? Have you ever been instructed in > Anapanasati by a senior monk or meditator? Have you ever practised > it in earnest? +++++++++++ Dear Eric, I met a European monk who now has about 30 rains. He spent 7 years living in the jungles of Thailand devoted to anapanasati. He told me he was so sure that it was helping him but finally gave it up. I gave him one of Ninas books and he said that it goes to the heart of the Dhamma. He told me he still teaches breath to westerners because it is expected these days. I think it is not as easy as it first appears as samatha is always with detachment but I meet people who clearly grasp at the object. We cannot say that everyone will succeed with anapanasati, that is why there are many objects - such as Death (maransati) and Dhammanusati that also bring calm. ====================== > > >> E: You sound like my first meditation teacher. He did not hold > Buddhadasa up to much esteem either. Although I have never met him, I have met a handful of his students who had many rains. They are > all upstanding monks. Even those that were not his students and had > met him show nothing but a deep respect for him. > If emptiness arises in meditation then what Buddhadasa had to say in > this regards has a lot of merit!: Eric: IMHO insight will not arise without samatha. I dont > think 'insight' can be cultivated but concentration sure can be. +++++++++++++ As you are a student Of Buddhadasa I guess you follow his most popular book; Handbook for Mankind http://www.meta- religion.com/World_Religions/Buddhism/handbook_for_mankind_vii.htm """INSlGHT, BY THE NATURE METHOD In this chapter we shall see how concentration may come about naturally on the one hand, and as a result of organized practice on the other. The end result is identical in the two cases: the mind is concentrated and fit to be used for carrying out close introspection. One thing must be noticed, however: the intensity of concentration that comes about naturally is usually sufficient and appropriate for introspection and insight, whereas the concentration resulting from organized training is usually excessive, more than can be made use of. Furthermore, misguided satisfaction with that highly developed concentration may result. While the mind is fully concentrated, it is likely to be experiencing such a satisfying kind of bliss and well- being that the meditator may become attached to it, or imagine it to be the Fruit of the Path. Naturally occurring concentration, which is sufficient and suitable for use in introspection, is harmless, having none of the disadvantages inherent in concentration developed by means of intensive training. In the Tipitaka, there are numerous references to people attaining naturally all states of Path and Fruit. This generally came about in the presence of the Buddha himself but also happened later with other teachers. These people did not go into the forest and sit, assiduously practicing concentration on certain objects in the way described in later manuals. Clearly no organized effort was involved when arahantship was attained by the first five disciples of the Buddha on hearing the Discourse on Non - selfhood, or by the one thousand hermits on hearing the Fire Sermon. In these cases, keen, penetrating insight came about quite naturally. These examples clearly show that natural concentration is liable to develop of its own accord while one is attempting to understand clearly some question, and that the resulting insight, as long as it is firmly established must be quite intense and stable. It happens naturally, automatically in just the same way as the mind becomes concentrated the moment we set about doing arithmetic. Likewise in firing a gun, when we take aim, the mind automatically becomes concentrated and steady. This is how naturally occurring concentration comes about. We normally overlook it completely because it does not appear the least bit magical, miraculous, or awe inspiring. But through the power of just this naturally occurring concentration, most of us could actually attain liberation. We could attain the Fruit of the Path, Nirvana, arahantship, just by means of natural concentration. So don't overlook this naturally occurring concentration. It is something most of us either already have, or can readily develop. We have to do everything we can to cultivate and develop it, to make it function perfectly and yield the appropriate results, just as did most of the people who succeeded in becoming arahants, none of whom knew anything of modern concentration techniques. It is not a case of the mind's being rendered silent, hard and rocklike. Nothing like that happens at all. The body feels normal, but the mind is especially calm and suitable for use in thinking and introspection. It is perfectly clear, perfectly cool, perfectly still and restrained. In other words, it is fit for work, ready to know. This is the degree of concentration to be aimed for, not the very deep concentration where one sits rigidly like a stone image, quite devoid of awareness. Sitting in deep concentration like that, one is in no position to investigate anything. A deeply concentrated mind cannot practice introspection at all. It is in a state of unawareness and is of no use for insight. DEEP CONCENTRATION IS A MAJOR OBSTACLE TO INSIGHT PRACTICE.""" endquote I have met with a few of Buddhadasas students over the years and have been intrigued that all of then have emphasised special concentration, not one speaking about Buddhadasa's "natural method". RobertK 34756 From: Date: Fri Jul 23, 2004 3:22am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Anapanasati Sutta In a message dated 7/23/04 7:11:13 AM Pacific Daylight Time, rjkjp1@y... writes: have met with a few of Buddhadasas students over the years and have been intrigued that all of then have emphasised special concentration, not one speaking about Buddhadasa's "natural method". RobertK ====== Robert and Eric, The most prominant meditation teacher in the US who is a student of Buddhadasa, Santikaro Bhikkhu, calls it "just enough concentration." He teaches one to follow the Anapanasati Sutta and the required concentration happens without additional effort. Hi, Eric. Welcome to the list. Jack 34757 From: Date: Fri Jul 23, 2004 3:25am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Anapanasati Sutta In a message dated 7/23/04 7:11:13 AM Pacific Daylight Time, rjkjp1@y... writes: A deeply concentrated mind cannot practice introspection at all. It is in a state of unawareness and is of no use for insight. DEEP CONCENTRATION IS A MAJOR OBSTACLE TO INSIGHT PRACTICE.""" endquote ====== Robert, This is a major teaching of many Thera meditation teachers, Achan Sobin Namto, for one. jack 34758 From: Date: Fri Jul 23, 2004 3:58am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Anapanasati Sutta Hi, Jack (and Robert and Eric) - In a message dated 7/23/04 10:36:27 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Jackhat1@a... writes: > Robert and Eric, > > The most prominant meditation teacher in the US who is a student of > Buddhadasa, Santikaro Bhikkhu, calls it "just enough concentration." He > teaches one to > follow the Anapanasati Sutta and the required concentration happens without > additional effort. > ====================== What you say about Santikaro Bhikkhu - BTW, I believe he is now disrobed - is correct. And Robert is correct in what he says about "natural meditation" as mentioned by Buddhadasa Bhikkhu in his "Handbook" and also, I think, in his "The Heartwood of the Bodhi Tree". However, in looking over Buddhadasa Bhikkhu's book "Mindfulness with Breathing: a Manual for Serious Beginners", he does present the 4th step of the 1st tetrad as a matter of attaining jhanas. So, it would seem that he views anapanasati, at least in its complete, 16-step form, as implementing not only vipassana bhavana but also the samatha bhavana of jhana cultivation. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 34759 From: Date: Fri Jul 23, 2004 4:19am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Anapanasati Sutta In a message dated 7/23/04 8:00:35 AM Pacific Daylight Time, upasaka@a... writes: However, in looking over Buddhadasa Bhikkhu's book "Mindfulness with Breathing: a Manual for Serious Beginners", he does present the 4th step of the 1st tetrad as a matter of attaining jhanas. So, it would seem that he views anapanasati, at least in its complete, 16-step form, as implementing not only vipassana bhavana but also the samatha bhavana of jhana cultivation. === Howard. I don't think that "Mindfulness with Breathing" says that the 4th step is a matter of attaining jhanas. Look at p. 65, he says the jhanas are not necessary for step 4 or for anapanasati. It would be useful but not necessary. jakc 34760 From: Date: Fri Jul 23, 2004 4:27am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Anapanasati Sutta Hi, Jack - In a message dated 7/23/04 11:20:23 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Jackhat1@a... writes: > Howard. > > I don't think that "Mindfulness with Breathing" says that the 4th step is a > matter of attaining jhanas. Look at p. 65, he says the jhanas are not > necessary > for step 4 or for anapanasati. It would be useful but not necessary. > > jakc > ========================= My apologies. You are completely right. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 34761 From: Date: Fri Jul 23, 2004 4:43am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Anapanasati Sutta Howard, Didn't you say you were going to begin an intensive meditation period based on the Anapanasati Sutta? How are you going about it? Jack 34762 From: Date: Fri Jul 23, 2004 6:03am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Anapanasati Sutta Hi, Jack - In a message dated 7/23/04 11:44:50 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Jackhat1@a... writes: > Howard, > > Didn't you say you were going to begin an intensive meditation period based > on the Anapanasati Sutta? How are you going about it? > > Jack > ======================== I don't think I said that. At one point a while ago I attended a one-day "retreat" on the Satipatthana Sutta, but it turned out to be mostly pariyatti. More recently I intended to sign up for a "silent illumination" retreat given by Ven Sheng-Yen, but the date was changed to a time I couldn't make. At this point I *have* signed up for a 10-day Goenka retreat in November. That will be my 2nd Goenka retreat. The first 2 to 3 days of it may consist of meditation on the breath, but for the most part it will consist of mindfulness of bodily sensations. Meanwhile, not on retreat, I am meditating on the breath regularly for at least two one-hour daily sittings. I intend to continue with this practice. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 34763 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Jul 23, 2004 11:00am Subject: Vis.XIV, 89, Intro and Summary of Tiika. Vis. 89: The 'unprofitable' is one kind according to plane, being only of the sense sphere. It is of three kinds according to root, as (a) rooted in greed, (b) rooted in hate, and (c) rooted in delusion. Pali Vis. 89. akusala.m pana bhuumito ekavidha.m kaamaavacarameva, muulato tividha.m lobhamuula.m dosamuula.m mohamuula~nca. Intro and Summary of Tiika 89: In the following sections, the Visuddhimagga explains about the akusala cittas which belong only to the plane of citta that is of the sense sphere, kamaavacaara, not to the planes of citta that are fine-material, ruupaavacaara, immaterial, aruupaavacara, or supramundane, lokuttara. The Tiika begins with an explanation of the word kaamaavacaara, sense sphere. We should return to Vis. XIV, 83 with the explanation of this term. Recapitulation of Tiika Note 36. ' "Sense sphere" (kaamaavacara): here there are the two kinds of sense desire (kaama), sense desire as basis (vatthu-kaama) and sense desire as defilement (kilesa-kaama). The basis of sense desire are the sense objects that are desired by the defilement of sense desire, kilesa kaama. This is called tanhaa, clinging. The Expositor (I, p. 82) explains that the basis of sense desire is the round of the triple plane of existence. Because of clinging one wants to be reborn. The triple plane of existence are the sensuous planes, the fine material planes and the immaterial planes. Plane of existence is the locality where one is reborn. There are eleven sensuous planes. Sensuousness frequents these sensuous planes, in these planes the basis of sense desire and sense desire prevail. We read in the Expositor : Cittas of the sensesphere also arise in ruupa-brahma planes and in aruupa brahma planes; cittas rooted in lobha, for example, arise in ruupa-brahma planes and in aruupa brahma planes. Cittas rooted in aversion do not arise there, since there are no condiitons for them in those planes. Seeing and hearing also arise in ruupa-brahma planes, but smelling, tasting and body-consciousness do not arise there. Those born in the ruupa-brahma planes have less conditions for sense impressions. However, cittas of the sensesphere arise in abundance in the sensuous planes of existence. We read in the Co to the Abhidhammattha Sangaha (Topics of Abhidhamma, p. 10): < Herein that which desires (kameti) is desire (kaama) or sensual craving. [Consciousness] where that desire is active (avacarati) in finding its objects belongs to the sphere of sense-desire (kaamaavacara.m). Alternatively, kaama is that which is desired, [that is,] elevenfold sense-sphere existence; because it is mostly active there, it belongs to the sphere of sense-objects (kaamaavacara.m)- for what is meant is its most common activity, even though [consciousness] that occurs in form and formless existences can still belong to the sphere of sense-desire. Alternatively, kaama is simply sense-sphere existence and what is active there is sense-sphere activity (kaamaavacaro) >. The text of the Tiika of Vis. 89 mentions that also in the planes of fine material existence, where someone is born as a result of Mahaggata citta (ruupa-jhaana kusala citta), there are vipaakacittas experiencing ruupadhaatu, elements which are ruupa, and that there are thus also cittas of the sense sphere. The Tiika mentions the eleven planes of existence of the sense sphere where clinging to sense objects, kaama tanhaa is active, and these are : from the lowest plane that is the aviici hell plane up to the highest sense sphere plane, the plane of the ³devas who wield power over the production of others² (paranimmita vasavatti). The Tiika explains the meanings of ³included (pariyaapanna) dhammas², and ³unincluded (apariyaapanna)dhammas². The unincluded dhammas are the supramundane dhammas. The Tiika states: < they are leading out from the world (lokato utti.n.nataaya lokuttarataa), their excellence should be known by their superior nature.> The dhammas that are called ³included² are all mundane dhammas. We read in the Expositor (I, p. 67): The Tiika only summarizes here the three unwholesome roots, akusala hetus: attachment, lobha, aversion, dosa and ignorance, moha. It explains that they are like roots because they cause akusala citta to be firmly established on them. We can be reminded that roots are very powerful conditions. Just as a tree receives sap through the roots in order to grow, evenso are the akusala cittas dependent on the akusala roots. Many akusala cetasikas accompany akusala cittas, but only three among them are roots, hetus. There are twelve types of akusala cittas and these are classified as three groups in accordance with the accompanying roots. Each akusala citta is rooted in moha, ignorance, and it may have in addition the root of lobha, attachment or of dosa, aversion. Muula is another word for root. Eight types of akusala cittas are called lobha-muula-cittas, two types are called dosa-muula-cittas and two types are called moha-muula-cittas. In the following sections they shall be dealt with. ****** Nina. 34764 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Jul 23, 2004 11:00am Subject: Re: [dsg] The Importance of Concentration. Hi Howard, Yes, I agree. You remember, I wrote something about this interesting sutta. I like to add more. I shall go into some suttas. op 23-07-2004 01:41 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: > > In the Upanissa Sutta, the Buddha said "Knowledge & vision of things > as they actually are present has concentration as its prerequisite." > P.S. This doesn't say "sole prerequisite," and it doesn't say how *much* > concentration, though it must be enough to bother talking about(!), and, IMO, > this> statement says enough for one to realize on the basis of it not to > shortchange concentration, because a prerequisite is a *necessary* condition - > a "without which, not" condition! N: Yes, right concentration is compared to a wetnurse in the Co to the much quoted sutta: S.N. IV, 80 (§ 99 ); develop concentration... Samadhi is paraphrased as one-pointedness. A wetnurse: very important for an infant in olden times. Another sutta: S.N. V, 144 ( On Satipatthana, 4, Saala. The Buddha says: "Come you, friends, do you abide in body contemplating body (as transient), ardent, composed and one-pointed, of tranquil mind, calmed down, of concentrated mind, for insight into body as it really is." And the same for the other three objects of satipatthana. Co notes, to one-pointed: ekodi bhuuta: by a momentary concentration (kha.nika samaadhi) become one-pointed and tranquillized. And to concentrated: by way of access and attainment concentration (jhana). Then another sutta: Gradual Sayings, book of the Tens, Ch I, § 1. In a way similar to the Upanissa sutta it is explained how from one condition follows the next one. We read: "Knowing and seeing things as they really are (yathaabhuuta ñaa.na dassana) is the object and profit of concentration." We read that the next steps are revulsion (nibbida) and fading of interest (viraga)and then release by knowing and seeing. We read in the Co that Knowing and seeing things as they really are is the first stage of tender insight, vipassana that is weak, and that revulsion (nibbida) is vipassana as power, this means, vipassana that has been developed already and which becomes detached form nama and rupa. We read that fading of interest is already the Path-consciousness, and that release is the fruition of arahatship and that knowing and seeing is his reviewing knowledge, paccavekkha.na ñaa.na. The next sutta, § 2, is very interesting: Thinking with intention. For each of the previous conditions it is said that one step arises naturally, dhammataa, from the previous one. thus: When we see how conditions naturally evolve there will be less inclination to try to do specific things with an idea of "I do it." I think that your post with the simile was well expressed. You take into account different conditions and among them pariyatti: < standing guard at the gate of the city, watching carefully who is entering or trying to, and responding according to instructions: stop the terrorists (akusala), but permit - even encourage - the good visitors (kusala). Such a guard requires prior instruction (pariyatti) and much hands-on training (patipatti) to properly carry out his responsibilities.> N: I would like to add that the guard has to be instructed about the Troyan horse. A foe, akusala, can enter disguised as a friend, kusala. Lobha is so tricky. There is wrong concentration accompanying lobha and even lobha with wrong view, and there is right concentration. In the course of insight right concentration naturally develops, it becomes stronger because of conditions. Some people developed jhana and indeed the texts about access and attainment concentration apply to them. Some did not, and their concentration was only momentary concentration. We read that the conditions for insight are: association with the right person who can explain the dhamma, listening, practice in accordance with the dhamma. In order to listen and consider, concentration is needed, but together with sati sampajañña, sati and pañña. Imagine, when one thinks of the nice food that is going to be served while listening to the Dhamma, how can one get anything that is being explained, there woul not be any concentration. This happened while sitting and listening somewhere outside in Thailand, the Thai food smelled so good. But of course, there can be awareness and understanding of the smell of food or of the attachment to it, and then there is understanding but also concentration. Anything can be object of satipatthana. When one begins to be aware, the object is one nama or one rupa at a time. One-pointedness is needed, but together with understanding. This does not mean that one tries to select nama and rupa and tries to concentrate on specific ones, because then the present dhamma has fallen away already, and we shall never understand anatta. I think it is just a natural process. When there is right understanding it is accompanied by right concentration. Throughout the development of insight concentration grows naturally. We cannot do without concentration, but this does not mean: I have to try very hard to be concentrated. Then there is bound to be an idea of self who does it all. The Abhidhamma helps us to understand that all these factors are cetasikas arising because of the appropriate conditions, cetasikas which perform functions. If we forget this, we read all the suttas with wrong understanding and wrong view. The Buddha said: develop concentration, develop understanding, be aware. This means: concentration develops, understanding develops, awareness arises, but his words can be an exhortation, a condition for the arising of all those qualities which are cetasikas, devoid of self. To conclude: we should not belittle the role of concentration but neither should we lose sight of proportions. We should always consider the context where the word concentration is used and compare text with text, compare sutta and abhidhamma. Whenever we read about samadhi, no matter it is of the degree of jhana or momentary concentration, we should remember that it is samadhi of mental development, bhaavanaa. And bhaavanaa cannot be without sati sampajañña, sati and pañña. Thus, concentration, but never without sati sampajañña, is a prerequisite for seeing things as they are: the arising of stages of insight, direct understanding. And this is another level of pañña, another step, it is no longer intellectual understanding. There have to be pañña, sati and also one-pointedness on the nama and rupa that appear one at a time, so that their different characteristics are seen more and more clearly, so that in the course of insight they are seen as impermanent, dukkha and anatta. Pañña, sati and samadhi and all the enlightenment factors that develop together along with satipatthana are necessary conditions for enlightenment. We read about samadhi but we should not forget all the suttas about the enlightenment factors. At the moment of enlightenment pañña is lokuttara and the accompanying samadhi has the strength of jhana because of conditions: nibbana is the object. This is far away. I do not see things as they really are yet, but I feel that the very beginning of development has to be right. It is counter productive to try very hard to concentrate on nama and rupa, that is bound to be done with self. Then it is not mental development. The idea of self is not eradicated but it is not right to think, well it does not matter to do things with an idea of self. Then wrong view will only be accumulated and grow evermore. Understanding has to be keen and detect exactly when the idea of self slips in. Pañña, sati, concentration and all sobhana cetasikas have to grow naturally. See the sutta. Your remark was a condition for me to be very concentrated on concentration! Nina. 34765 From: Date: Fri Jul 23, 2004 7:08am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Anapanasati Sutta In a message dated 7/23/04 10:06:18 AM Pacific Daylight Time, upasaka@a... writes: > Howard, > > Didn't you say you were going to begin an intensive meditation period based > on the Anapanasati Sutta? How are you going about it? > > Jack > ======================== I don't think I said that. [snip] Meanwhile, not on retreat, I am meditating on the breath regularly for at least two one-hour daily sittings. I intend to continue with this practice. ====== Howard, I was referring to your daily practice referred to above. Are you going to go thru the Anap. Sutta steps? Or, do you mean anapanasati practice as general mindfulness of breathing? jack 34766 From: ericlonline Date: Fri Jul 23, 2004 11:42am Subject: Re: Anapanasati Sutta Hey Robert, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "ericlonline" <> May I ask you a personal question? Have you ever been instructed in > Anapanasati by a senior monk or meditator? Have you ever practised > it in earnest? +++++++++++ Dear Eric, I met a European monk who now has about 30 rains. He spent 7 years living in the jungles of Thailand devoted to anapanasati. He told me he was so sure that it was helping him but finally gave it up. I gave him one of Ninas books and he said that it goes to the heart of the Dhamma. He told me he still teaches breath to westerners because it is expected these days. I think it is not as easy as it first appears as samatha is always with detachment but I meet people who clearly grasp at the object. E: Sure nothing is 'easy', it all requires energy, discernment, etc. What you mention about grasping during samatha is more an issue with the practitioners than the practice. R: We cannot say that everyone will succeed with anapanasati, that is why there are many objects - such as Death (maransati) and Dhammanusati that also bring calm. E: Of course, success in anything (except death and taxes :) is not guaranteed. The point brought up a few posts ago was the relevance to a beginners practice. A beginner can stay in the first tetrad if they wish for years. There is a lot to learn there. I am also not saying this should be ones sole practice. I for one am all over the place but I have found Anapanasati to be invaluable with regards to acquiring referential experience in regards to the Dhamma. ====================== > > >> E: You sound like my first meditation teacher. He did not hold > Buddhadasa up to much esteem either. Although I have never met him, I have met a handful of his students who had many rains. They are > all upstanding monks. Even those that were not his students and had > met him show nothing but a deep respect for him. > If emptiness arises in meditation then what Buddhadasa had to say in > this regards has a lot of merit!: Eric: IMHO insight will not arise without samatha. I dont > think 'insight' can be cultivated but concentration sure can be. +++++++++++++ R: As you are a student Of Buddhadasa I guess you follow his most popular book; Handbook for Mankind http://www.meta- religion.com/World_Religions/Buddhism/handbook_for_mankind_vii.htm E: I am more a student of his students as I never met him. But I am familiar with the information in the quote below. It is in other places and his students talk about it (at least the ones I know). Buddhadasa: """INSlGHT, BY THE NATURE METHOD In this chapter we shall see how concentration may come about naturally on the one hand, and as a result of organized practice on the other. The end result is identical in the two cases: the mind is concentrated and fit to be used for carrying out close introspection. One thing must be noticed, however: the intensity of concentration that comes about naturally is usually sufficient and appropriate for introspection and insight, whereas the concentration resulting from organized training is usually excessive, more than can be made use of. Furthermore, misguided satisfaction with that highly developed concentration may result. While the mind is fully concentrated, it is likely to be experiencing such a satisfying kind of bliss and well- being that the meditator may become attached to it, or imagine it to be the Fruit of the Path. Naturally occurring concentration, which is sufficient and suitable for use in introspection, is harmless, having none of the disadvantages inherent in concentration developed by means of intensive training. In the Tipitaka, there are numerous references to people attaining naturally all states of Path and Fruit. This generally came about in the presence of the Buddha himself but also happened later with other teachers. These people did not go into the forest and sit, assiduously practicing concentration on certain objects in the way described in later manuals. Clearly no organized effort was involved when arahantship was attained by the first five disciples of the Buddha on hearing the Discourse on Non - selfhood, or by the one thousand hermits on hearing the Fire Sermon. In these cases, keen, penetrating insight came about quite naturally. These examples clearly show that natural concentration is liable to develop of its own accord while one is attempting to understand clearly some question, and that the resulting insight, as long as it is firmly established must be quite intense and stable. It happens naturally, automatically in just the same way as the mind becomes concentrated the moment we set about doing arithmetic. Likewise in firing a gun, when we take aim, the mind automatically becomes concentrated and steady. This is how naturally occurring concentration comes about. We normally overlook it completely because it does not appear the least bit magical, miraculous, or awe inspiring. But through the power of just this naturally occurring concentration, most of us could actually attain liberation. We could attain the Fruit of the Path, Nirvana, arahantship, just by means of natural concentration. So don't overlook this naturally occurring concentration. It is something most of us either already have, or can readily develop. We have to do everything we can to cultivate and develop it, to make it function perfectly and yield the appropriate results, just as did most of the people who succeeded in becoming arahants, none of whom knew anything of modern concentration techniques. It is not a case of the mind's being rendered silent, hard and rocklike. Nothing like that happens at all. The body feels normal, but the mind is especially calm and suitable for use in thinking and introspection. It is perfectly clear, perfectly cool, perfectly still and restrained. In other words, it is fit for work, ready to know. This is the degree of concentration to be aimed for, not the very deep concentration where one sits rigidly like a stone image, quite devoid of awareness. Sitting in deep concentration like that, one is in no position to investigate anything. A deeply concentrated mind cannot practice introspection at all. It is in a state of unawareness and is of no use for insight. DEEP CONCENTRATION IS A MAJOR OBSTACLE TO INSIGHT PRACTICE.""" endquote R: I have met with a few of Buddhadasas students over the years and have been intrigued that all of then have emphasised special concentration, not one speaking about Buddhadasa's "natural method". E: One of my teachers Ajahn Varasak (a student of Buddhadasa) speaks about this all the time. He goes so far in the past in saying that you do not need to formally meditate. (I have gotten him to ease off of this postion as of late). PEACE E 34767 From: ericlonline Date: Fri Jul 23, 2004 11:51am Subject: [dsg] Re: Anapanasati Sutta --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jackhat1@a... wrote: > In a message dated 7/23/04 7:11:13 AM Pacific Daylight Time, rjkjp1@y... > writes: > have met with a few of Buddhadasas students over the years and > have been intrigued that all of then have emphasised special > concentration, not one speaking about Buddhadasa's "natural method". > RobertK > ====== > Robert and Eric, > > The most prominant meditation teacher in the US who is a student of > Buddhadasa, Santikaro Bhikkhu, calls it "just enough concentration." He teaches one to > follow the Anapanasati Sutta and the required concentration happens without > additional effort. > > Hi, Eric. Welcome to the list. > > Jack What Jack says is true about Santikaro. You see Buddhadasa was very pragmatic. He taught Anapanasati so it would be of benefit to beginners and to advanced (those capable of jhana and/or insight). Santikaro told me a story of how Buddhadasa would emphasize the nimitta forming in the mind (it was easy for him to produce) but Santikaro told him many people could not acheive this. Buddhadasa then quit emphasizing it so much at Suan Mokh to all the people that came for retreats. Thanks for the welcome Jack! PEACE E 34768 From: ericlonline Date: Fri Jul 23, 2004 11:54am Subject: [dsg] Re: Anapanasati Sutta --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jackhat1@a... wrote: > In a message dated 7/23/04 7:11:13 AM Pacific Daylight Time, rjkjp1@y... > writes: > A deeply concentrated > mind cannot practice introspection at all. It is in a state of > unawareness and is of no use for insight. DEEP CONCENTRATION IS A > MAJOR OBSTACLE TO INSIGHT PRACTICE.""" endquote > ====== It is only an obstacle if concentration overpowers sati and discernment. Some people get 'addicted' to the calm. Can you blame them? It is quite a respite from our 'normal' state of mind. PEACE E 34769 From: Date: Fri Jul 23, 2004 9:11am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Anapanasati Sutta Hi, Jack - In a message dated 7/23/04 2:10:14 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Jackhat1@a... writes: > Howard, > > I was referring to your daily practice referred to above. Are you going to > go > thru the Anap. Sutta steps? Or, do you mean anapanasati practice as general > mindfulness of breathing? > > jack > ========================= Well, as you might surmise, I am rereading Buddhadasa Bhikkhu's book on anapanasati. But, at least at this point, I'm not approaching my meditation in very much of a formal, follow-the-steps manner. I'm just attempting to avoid distraction as much as possible (or at least to come back from it quickly), but without expectations, permitting the development of calm and concentration and other useful factors to proceed as conditions allow. When a good degree of calm and pleasant sensation arises, I tend to shift my attention to that, for doing so is recommended in the movement towards absorption, and it is natural as well. What I'm (re)discovering is the importance of patience and not anticipating developments. With these relinquishings, calm and then concentration do increase on their own. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 34770 From: Herman Hofman Date: Fri Jul 23, 2004 3:47pm Subject: Questions re kamma/kusala Hi everyone, My questions are with reference to the following excerpt from A.i.263: "Monks! There are three root causes of kamma. What are the three? They are greed ... hatred ... delusion ... "Whatever kamma is performed out of greed ... hatred ... delusion, is born from greed ... hatred ... delusion, has greed ... hatred ... delusion as its root and as its cause, that kamma is unskillful, that kamma is harmful, that kamma has suffering as a result, that kamma brings about the creation of more kamma, not the cessation of kamma. "Monks! There are these three root causes of kamma. What are the three? They are non-greed ... non-hatred ... non-delusion ... "Whatever kamma is performed out of non-greed ... non-hatred ... non-delusion, is born of non-greed ... non-hatred ... non-delusion, has non-greed ... non-hatred ... non-delusion as its root and its cause, that kamma is skillful, that kamma is not harmful, that kamma has happiness as a result, that kamma brings about the cessation of kamma, not the creation of more kamma ..." ================================= What is the name(s) of the sutta this is taken from? What are the original Pali words translated here as delusion, harmful and happiness? Is it accurate to say, based on this sutta, that a sine qua non of kusala kamma is that it brings about the cessation of kamma ie all four criteria must be met before an act is classified as kusala? (if one was classifying, that is :-)) Thanks in advance Herman 34771 From: suicidal_one2004 Date: Fri Jul 23, 2004 1:39pm Subject: Four foundations of mindfulness- simultaneously? Hi, I've been reading "The Four Foundations of Mindfulness" by Ven. U Silananda and Thanissaro Bhikku's "Wings to Awakening." Surely we all know the Buddha says whoever is practising these four foundations of mindfulness [*each of body, feelings, mind, and dhammas in and of themselves*] for [7 years down to 7 days] can expect gnosis here & now or if there is still some trace of affliction, non-return. My question is, must these all be practised concurrently, or do we merely shift attention to whatever comes to the fore? A passage to consider: from Thanissaro Bhikku's "Wings to Awakening": ========================================== The four objects that act as frames of reference fall into two classes. The first class--the body, feelings, and the mind--act as the "given" objects of meditation practise: what experience presents, on its own, as an object for meditation. The meditator takes any one of these objects as a frame of reference, relating all of experience to his/her chosen frame. For example, although one will experience feelings and mind states in the course of taking the body as a frame of reference, one tries to relate them to the experience of the body as their primary frame. _A feeling is viewed as it affects the body, or the body affects it._ The same holds for a mind state. An analogy for this practise is holding an object in one's hand. When other objects come into contact with the hand, one is aware that they are making contact, but one does not let go of the object in one's hand in order to grasp after them." ========================================== This seems to imply that feelings should be taken as a secondary consideration, as it relates to the body. How one would do this, I don't know, but it doesn't seem right to me. Certainly we need to practise ardently on feelings in and of themselves, to observe origination & dissolution factors, relinquishment, and impermanence that is their very nature, right? Or is it meant to say that we should develop each frame of reference one at a time, focusing on the other events as secondary or background phenomenon, or relating them to the primary frame of reference, until each foundation of mindfulness is established so they can be practised concurrently? Furthermore, Ven. Pannyavaro, in his e-book entitled "The Art of Attention" available on http://www.buddhanet.net, refers to the foundations of mindfulness as the "four spheres of attention," extracting pieces of the satipatthana sutta saying we should note the posture of the body and the four elements of it, along with the movement of the abdomen, without any ardency, concentration, or strict adherence to the letter of the sutta. Similarly with feelings and mental phenomenon, just to note whichever comes to the fore of one's attention -- thus he calles them the "four spheres of attention." The image I have here is of one sitting practising mindfulness of breathing, of posture, of the four elements, of feelings, physical and mental, of mind, and eventually of dhammas, staying in the domain of the four foundations of mindfulness whereever he physically goes. This is how the Buddha meant satipatthana to be practised with regard to the time periods referenced in the assurance of attainment section, right? 34772 From: christine_forsyth Date: Fri Jul 23, 2004 9:07pm Subject: Precepts - Veganism Dear Group, Just wondering. The Precepts apply to the way buddhists act towards all beings. For instance, if we intentionally kill a cow or an insect - it is just as much killing as killing a human - though there are some differing opinions as to whether the vipaka is identical. I know, and have used, the explanation that buying meat from a butcher means one is not guilty of breaking the Precept against killing because I did not personally do or request the killing, and they were not specifically killed for 'me'. Increasingly I am feeling that the modern intensive farming methods would be regarded unfavourably by the Buddha. I know, and have used, the explanations that he and his bhikkhus had to live off the alms of the people and therefore were to accept what was given and have no preferences. The occasional butchering of an animal at the time of the Buddha can in no way rival the efficiency of the method and sheer multitudes of beings being bred and 'processed' within the commercial food markets today. And what of the Precept against stealing? Particularly with regard to milk, eggs and honey. The cows, chickens and the bees do not 'give' the fluids of their bodies - so couldn't the consumption of milk, icecream, cheese, yoghurt, honey and eggs be regarded as stealing. Most of them are kept in stressful (suffering) conditions, which continues for years until they are no longer useful and are 'disposed of'. Killing is one quick moment - could it be that this living off the body products of unwilling and powerless animals is worse than that? Wouldn't this make a Vegan way of life the way to go? metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- 34773 From: rjkjp1 Date: Fri Jul 23, 2004 9:50pm Subject: Re: Buddhadasa, Anapanasati Sutta --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "ericlonline" wrote: > Hey Robert, > > --- > Eric: IMHO insight will not arise without samatha. I dont > > think 'insight' can be cultivated but concentration sure can be. > +++++++++++++ > > Buddhadasa: > """INSlGHT, BY THE NATURE METHOD > the intensity of > concentration that comes about naturally is usually sufficient and > appropriate for introspection and insight, whereas the concentration > resulting from organized training is usually excessive, more than > can be made use of. Furthermore, misguided satisfaction with that > highly developed concentration may result. Naturally occurring > concentration, which is sufficient and suitable for use in > introspection, is harmless, having none of the disadvantages > inherent in concentration developed by means of intensive training. > > So don't overlook this naturally occurring concentration. It is > something most of us either already have, or can readily develop. DEEP CONCENTRATION IS A > MAJOR OBSTACLE TO INSIGHT PRACTICE.""" endquote > ===========-- Dear Eric, Eric: One of my teachers Ajahn Varasak (a student of Buddhadasa) speaks > about this all the time. He goes so far in the past in saying that > you do not need to formally meditate. (I have gotten him to ease off > of this postion as of late). ========= Kind of shocking, still he must have had doubts as you changed his views. How do you think he came to such ideas, did he know Buddhadasa well? Then again Buddhadasa seems be saying the same thing (that formal meditation is not needed)- why do you think he would say so? Robertk 34774 From: Andrew Date: Fri Jul 23, 2004 11:16pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Eternalism on ATI --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: [snip] I do *not* think he [Bhikkhu Thanissaro] asserts that there is a self - in fact he urges > one not to so assert. I see his "position" as being the "nonposition" which > cautions against holding views of how things are, as opposed to directly "seeing" > reality. In this regard, he seems to say that conceptual positions, whether > pro-self or anti-self, all miss the mark in carrying with them substantialist or > nihilist (or both) presumptions that have no relation to the way things > really are, but necessarily mischaracterize reality. In particular, he warns > against thinking and speaking in terms of "I have (or do not) have a self," which, > of course, by turns, a) begs the question, and b) is self- contradictory. I see > his position as the pragmatic one that holding a view on self, and being upset > at the idea of not holding one, is a clinging to view, a clinging to concepts > afflicted by reification or nihilism, which is a sabotaging substitute for > direct realization of reality. I believe his point is that the Buddha did not > attempt to inculcate views, but rather to provide the means to free oneself of > views (and, of course, of everything else), replacing views by direct knowing. > The venerable does not claim there is no reality to know, but only that the > knowing must not be a matter of view, but of wisdom. Hi Howard From past discussions, I am aware of your view on anatta and basically agree with it. However, I just want to clarify some things about what you term the "nonposition" manifest on Access to Insight website. Are you suggesting that the nonposition view tells us to skip over views and go straight to direct knowing? If so, do we skip over Right View (samma-ditthi) as well? Is it possible to cling to Right View? A concept of Right View? If I believe "this body is not-self", do I lose points for "holding a view"? Doesn't the nonposition attempt to add anatta to the list of acinteyya (unthinkables)? Why didn't the Buddha himself put it on that list? In the Samyutta Nikaya V, when the 500 merchants asked the Buddha how they should live their lives, he said: "... as to those discourses uttered by the Tathagata, deep, deep in meaning, transcendental, and concerned with the void [about anatta] from time to time we will spend our days learning them." I can't see how this advice fits with the nonposition. Can you? If the nonposition is correct, wouldn't the Buddha have advised the merchants *not* to think about anatta, *not* to develop views but perhaps instead go straight to direct knowing of the void? Is that possible? These are rhetorical questions about a position/nonposition you yourself don't actually adhere to so don't feel any obligation to answer any of them. (-: Best wishes Andrew 34775 From: suicidal_one2004 Date: Fri Jul 23, 2004 9:05pm Subject: Introduction Hello, My name is Andrew. I have been studying and practising Theravada Buddhism on and off for about one year now. I sometimes establish myself in some of the four foundations of mindfulness, and have had success, insight, and purification with this path. I wish to pursue vipassana meditation culminating in stream-entry in this lifetime, and I am interested in the jhanas. I have the desire to live an upright moral life but I sometimes have difficulty keeping the precepts and get off course. I'm not in the best of health, but I'm learning, and I have good friends, so I think I have a good shot at this. Learned about DSG from a post on E-Sangha, the Internet Buddhist Web Forum at http://www.lioncity.net/buddhism/index.php with some links to Bhikku Bodhi's articles about the jhanas not being necessary for stream-entry. Hope to discuss dharma fruitfully with all of you. :-) 34776 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sat Jul 24, 2004 0:58am Subject: Re: Introduction Hello Andrew, Welcome to the List! Thanks for your introduction and supplying us with a name - I felt a little hesitant to reply just to your email tag. :-) You will find a lot of friends on this list whose understanding can differ on subjects like formal meditation. But we all get on happily and respectfully. You may like to check out the Useful Posts (where the Moderators have saved posts in an alphabetical order under topics of interest). Some of us use Pali terms occasionally (and some more than occasionally!) - there is a glossary in the files section as well. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/ And I wonder if you are the Andrew who has already discovered the photo album :-) - if so, many thanks, nice to see you. There are quite a few long time members here, whom we are still trying to encourage to take the plunge. Just shy, I suppose. :-) I'm from Australia and there are a few other Aussies here as well - there are many active members from all over the world. http://photos.groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/lst You sound like you have an active interest and growing knowledge of the Teachings - and I'm sure I don't need to tell you that there is no such thing as a silly question. Any question helps us all reflect and learn. Most of us have trouble with the Precepts at times - they are Training Rules and you can't be expected to be perfect for quite a while. :-) As to attaining Stream Entry in this lifetime - it will all depend on conditions ... Look forward to further dhamma discussion. :-) metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "suicidal_one2004" wrote: > Hello, > > My name is Andrew. > > I have been studying and practising Theravada Buddhism on and off for > about one year now. I sometimes establish myself in some of the four > foundations of mindfulness, and have had success, insight, and > purification with this path. I wish to pursue vipassana meditation > culminating in stream-entry in this lifetime, and I am interested in > the jhanas. > > I have the desire to live an upright moral life but I sometimes have > difficulty keeping the precepts and get off course. I'm not in the > best of health, but I'm learning, and I have good friends, so I think > I have a good shot at this. > > Learned about DSG from a post on E-Sangha, the Internet Buddhist Web > Forum at http://www.lioncity.net/buddhism/index.php with some links to > Bhikku Bodhi's articles about the jhanas not being necessary for > stream-entry. > > Hope to discuss dharma fruitfully with all of you. :-) 34777 From: buddhatrue Date: Sat Jul 24, 2004 1:39am Subject: [dsg] Re: Monk, bail out this boat... Friend Sarah, Sarah: I'm glad you had a good trip to Alexandria and Sharm El Sheikh… James: Thank you and I am glad that you had a nice trip to Switzerland. Did you learn how to yodel? Hehehehe…;-)) Sarah: As we've discussed, I think that many aspects of the teachings are spelled out more precisely in the Abhidhamma and commentaries. If one prefers to leave these aside, there has to be more reading between the sutta lines and this may be right or wrong. James: There is always going to be reading between the lines, even of the Abhidhamma and the commentaries. What this group mainly does is hash out the differences in what different people read between the lines, of the entire Tipitaka. Of course there comes a time when so much thought needs to be put aside and the real practice must begin (satipatthana and jhana). Sarah: I can appreciate intellectually that with more and more understanding and confidence in conditions and especially in kamma and vipaka, that there are fewer causes for jealousy to arise. By the time all doubts have been eradicated and there is complete confidence in the Triple Gem (at stage of sotapanna), there are no more conditions for jealousy to arise and one isn't susceptible to the worldly conditions in the same way as now as all wrong view of self, people and `situations' has been eradicated. Namas and rupas are fully understood. James: I think that you are extremely over-stating the qualifications for a sotapanna. Here is how I see it: You are a sotapanna if: 1) You believe that the Buddha was the supreme spiritual teacher, that there was (or is) no one higher; and that what he taught is the supreme spiritual teaching. 2) You don't believe that rites or rituals have any magic influence to purify oneself; that the only path to purification is a gradual one consisting of ethics, behavior, and mental development. 3) You know that there isn't a permanent self in the process of `you' and that after `you' die `you' will be reborn into another form based on your last clinging consciousness; and that `you' will not go to a heaven or a hell for all eternity. Sarah, could you imagine that in your next life you might be a Christian or a Pagan or some other religious follower and completely abandon the Buddha's teachings? Personally, I don't think so. I think that you are a sotapanna. I also think that I am a sotapanna and so is Howard, Christine, Jon, and many others in this group who actively post. But, Sarah, do you ever get jealous? If Jon started flirting with a pretty girl would you get jealous? Do members in this group get jealous of each other? Don't some active members get jealous if you mention me too much in posts or give me too much attention? I think the answer to these questions is yes so I don't believe that jealousy is eradicated in the sotapanna. I think we have a lot of jealous sotapannas around here! LOL! Sarah: More and more complicated than we ever realized - I'm confident in time that you'll really appreciate the precision of the Abhidhamma. James: The only way that I might appreciate the precision of the Abhidhamma is if I could read it for myself, in English and well- translated. Metta, James 34778 From: buddhatrue Date: Sat Jul 24, 2004 1:47am Subject: Re: Egypt Post: Suffering Friend Azita, Azita: Your story has made me laugh, but I hope your friend is OK now. Food poisoning is soooooo unpleasant. James: I'm glad that you enjoyed the story. I told my friend that I wrote a post, story, about his stay and he was very surprised. He can't wait to hear it when he gets back. BTW, he finally took some medicine and he is better now…but still bored. ;-)) Azita: Thank you for sharing this story; a condition for me to think about the things I do to 'escape' boredom. James: I'm glad. That is what I hoped it would do. Metta, James 34779 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Jul 24, 2004 1:55am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Anapanasati Sutta Hi again, Eric --- ericlonline wrote: > Hey Jon, ... > E: Dont sell yourself short Jon. No one knows what the next moment > may bring! Your optimism is refreshing! I agree that the next moment can't be predicted (dhammas are anatta, after all); on the other hand, however, we know that everything happens in due order, development is only ever gradual. We should be realistic about where we are at present, don't you think? ... > E: Yes, I have read it before. The old 500 years and that is it for > the Dhamma. Just did not think many people believed it. It seems to > undermine ones practice. Almost a resignation that you have to wait > your turn for the next turning of the wheel. Why shoot yourself in > the foot? "He who sees Dependent Origination sees the Dhamma and he > who sees the Dhamma sees the Buddha." To my understanding, the main distinguishing feature of a Buddha or Bodhisatta is that they are self-enlightened, and this means that they attain enlightenment at a time when the teachings are not extant. ... > E: I dont think so Jon. There is a big difference between the > foundation or frame of reference one is looking thru and the > insights that 'may' arise. If they were the same, then everyone > would 'realise' the same insight once the frame was set up and that > surely is not the case now is it? As I understand, it is the development of satipatthana itself that leads eventually to enlightenment, there being no separate 'intermediate' step, which is why I said that both satipatthana and vipassana are for practical purposes one and the same thing, both referring to the development of insight. See the passages copied below from the beginning and end of the Satipatthana Sutta. > E: Yes this is the commentarial view of it right? Use Anapanasati to > develope jhana between steps 4 and 5. But there is no mention of > jhana in the Sutta itself. Why? Here is what Thanissaro says about > the Anapanasati Sutta in his intro to it. "One of the most important > texts for beginning and veteran meditators alike..." What I said about the relationship between anapanasati and insight can be seen from the text of the sutta itself, so I would not describe it as (purely) the commentarial view. The key introductory passages of the sutta make it clear who the teaching is directed to. > May I ask you a personal question? Have you ever been instructed in > Anapanasati by a senior monk or meditator? Have you ever practised > it in earnest? I don't mind the personal question, Eric, but I really don't think it matters (and I certainly claim no expertise in the area). Surely you are more interested in what the Buddha had to say on the subject than in my personal expereince ;-)) > E: You sound like my first meditation teacher. He did not hold > Buddhadasa up to much esteem either. My comments were not meant to be any reflection on Ven Buddhadasa, whom I do not know and whose writings I have not really studied. I simply meant to indicate that my reading of the Anapanasati Sutta was quite different – I see it as being about vipassana for the dedicated and advanced anapanasati practitioner (who must also be fairly advanced in satipatthana/vipassansa). For the rest of us, there is plenty of useful, and more relevant, information about vipassana to be found in other suttas. > Although I have never met him, > I have met a handful of his students who had many rains. They are > all upstanding monks. Even those that were not his students and had > met him show nothing but a deep respect for him. I am aware that the late Ven. has a large and devoted following. > If emptiness arises in meditation then what Buddhadasa had to say in > this regards has a lot of merit! On the other hand, there is a lot to be said for reading the suttas and commentaries for oneself, since these are readily available in good translation, as I think you agree. Cheers Jon From 'The Way of Mindfulness' trans of the Satipatthana Sutta: "Thus have I heard. At one time the Blessed One was living in the Kurus, at Kammasadamma, a market-town of the Kuru people. Then the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus as follows: "This is the only way, O bhikkhus, for the purification of beings, for the overcoming of sorrow and lamentation, for the destruction of suffering and grief, for reaching the right path, for the attainment of Nibbana, namely, the Four Arousings of Mindfulness." ... "O bhikkhus, should any person maintain the Four Arousings of Mindfulness in this manner for seven years, then by him one of two fruitions is proper to be expected: Knowledge (Arahantship) here and now; or, if some form of clinging is yet present, the state of Non-Returning (the Third Stage of Supramundane Fulfillment). ... "Because of this was it said: 'This is the only way, O bhikkhus, for the purification of beings, for the overcoming of sorrow and lamentation, for the destruction of suffering and grief, for reaching the right path, for the attainment of Nibbana, namely, the Four Arousings of Mindfulness." 34780 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Jul 24, 2004 2:05am Subject: Re: [dsg] Egypt Post: Suffering Hi, Howard --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, James - ... > Until (and if) we reach the point where excitement is no longer > craved, what, besides being aware of that craving, can we do to avoid > the excesses > it can lead to? I think that we must "start where we are" and engage in > a form of sublimation. ... > ... for those of us who have had some of our eye-dust removed and have > come to glimpse the truth of the Dhamma, the jhanas rank highly among > those > dhammas that are kusala but also "exciting, different, and unusual" and > worthy of acquiring if not mastering. The aim of having more kusala in our lives is of course an admirable one, but not one that is easily implemented. For example, before we can begin to think about the jhanas, we must know something about the development of samatha of lesser levels. As you say, we need to begin where we are, and jhana is a long, long way down the track, it seems to me. Beginning level samatha is what would be useful to discuss, in my view (any starters for kindergarten corner ;-))?). Jon 34781 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Jul 24, 2004 4:10am Subject: Re: [dsg] The Importance of Concentration in One Sentence Hi, Howard --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, all - > > In the Upanissa Sutta, the Buddha said "Knowledge & vision of > things > as they actually are present has concentration as its prerequisite." > > With metta, > Howard > > P.S. This doesn't say "sole prerequisite," and it doesn't say how *much* > concentration, though it must be enough to bother talking about(!), and, > IMO, this > statement says enough for one to realize on the basis of it not to > shortchange concentration, because a prerequisite is a *necessary* > condition - a "without which, not" condition! Thanks for these comments, Howard. Very useful to consider. I notice that a similar relationship is mentioned in the sutta quoted by Nori in his recent post (from Anguttara Nikaya XI.1, Kimattha Sutta): <<"And what is the purpose of concentration? What is its reward?" "Concentration has knowledge & vision of things as they actually are as its purpose, knowledge & vision of things as they actually are as its reward." ...>> Would you agree that 'concentration' in these cases would have to be *kusala* concentration (i.e., concentration that accompanies kusala citta of one kind or another)? How is that kusala concentration to be developed, in your view? Jon 34782 From: kenhowardau Date: Sat Jul 24, 2004 4:13am Subject: Re: [dsg] Eternalism on ATI Howard, Thanks for your response. You wrote: ------------------------ > I understand your concern, but I think it is incorrect to characterize the venerable's position (as given in detail on Access to Insight at the url: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/modern/thanissaro/notself.html ) as "There clearly is a self, and it would be ridiculous to say otherwise. However, thoughts of self (and of not-self) agitate the mind and an agitated mind is not free." > --------------------------- KH: Until recently, I would have agreed that was an incorrect characterisation. I thought Thanissaro Buikkhu's (TB's) choice of words was often unfortunate, but I always assumed the meaning behind his words was consistent with the Dhamma. But now I am convinced the reverse is true. A closer look at ATI indicates overwhelmingly the venerable does believe in a self but considers it is wrong to discuss that belief. The article you have cited begins: ------------- "One of the first stumbling blocks that Westerners often encounter when they learn about Buddhism is the teaching on anatta, often translated as no-self. This teaching is a stumbling block for two reasons. First, the idea of there being no self doesn't fit well with other Buddhist teachings, such as the doctrine of kamma and rebirth: If there's no self, what experiences the results of kamma and takes rebirth? Second, it > -------------- KH: Do you see what I mean? I think you would agree with me that the words "doesn't fit well with other Buddhist teachings" were, at best, badly chosen. We would hope TB would go on to explain that anatta DOES fit well with "kamma and rebirth" and with all the other Buddhist teachings. But he doesn't. And the reason he doesn't is he believes there is a self that acts and receives the results of actions and there is a self that dies and is reborn. Occasionally, we see DSG contributors making those exact points when arguing that anatta should not be taken literally. Until now, I had assumed they were misunderstanding something they had read, but it seems they had read and understood TB exactly the way he intended. To continue quoting the article: ---------------- TB: "Second, it doesn't fit well with our own Judeo-Christian background, which assumes the existence of an eternal soul or self as a basic presupposition: If there's no self, what's the purpose of a spiritual life? Many books try to answer these questions, but if you look at the Pali Canon -- the earliest extant record of the Buddha's teachings -- you won't find them addressed at all. (KH: I would have thought the whole of the Pali Canon addresses the question, `How there can be existence (paramattha dhamma) without self,' but that's just my opinion.) TB: "In fact, the one place where the Buddha was asked point-blank whether or not there was a self, he refused to answer. ----------------- TB has a point, of course: In the suttas, the Buddha tends not to address the question point-blank. But what is the true significance of that? ----------------- TB: "When later asked why, he said that to hold either that there is a self or that there is no self is to fall into extreme forms of wrong view that make the path of Buddhist practice impossible. ----------------- KH: Is that strictly correct? In that particular instance, didn't the Buddha explain that the questioner was not capable of hearing the answer without falling into despair? (Sorry for my usual inability to give references.) I think the point is; anatta is a characteristic of dhammas and, therefore, it is accurate to say, "dhammas are not self" in preference to, "there is no self." ----------------- TB: "Thus the question should be put aside. ----------------- Does that ring a bell with you? I seem to remember how you, like many of us here, have been driven almost to distraction trying to convince one of our members that, spoken or unspoken, there is no room for the conclusion, "there is a self." The reasoning we use is; if there are only dhammas and all dhammas are not self, then it undeniably follows that there is no self. But those words fall on deaf ears. And the reason for that can be traced back to ATI and the writings of Venerable Thanissaro. -------------- TB: "To understand what his silence on this question says about the meaning of anatta, we first have to look at his teachings on how questions should be asked and answered, and how to interpret his answers. --------------- KH: TB goes on to explain questions, answers and interpretations in a way that (IMHO) is unique to his view of the Dhamma. As I was saying in my previous post, he sees the question of self/not-self as a cause of stress or agitation. He thinks the Buddhist method is to avoid the question thereby `freeing the mind from agitation' (his definition of enlightenment, I think). In the introduction to his translation of the Alagaddupama Sutta, TB says: ---------- "Thus it is important to focus on how the Dhamma is taught: Even in his most thoroughgoing teachings about not-self, the Buddha never recommends replacing the assumption that there is a self with the assumption that there is no self. Instead, he only goes so far as to point out the drawbacks of various ways of conceiving the self and then to recommend dropping them. For example, in his standard series of questions building on the logic of the inconstancy and stress of the aggregates, he does not say that because the aggregates are inconstant and stressful there is no self. He simply asks, When they are inconstant and stressful, is it proper to assume that they are "me, my self, what I am"? (KH: Does this sound familiar to you, Howard? Do you see how TB has misled certain people?) "Now, because the sense of self is a product of "I-making," this question seeks to do nothing more than to induce disenchantment and dispassion for that process of I- making, so as to put a stop to it. Once that is accomplished, the teaching has fulfilled its purpose in putting an end to suffering and stress. That's the safety of the further shore. As the Buddha says in this discourse, "Both formerly and now, monks, I declare only stress and the cessation of stress." As he also says here, when views of self are finally dropped, one is free from agitation; and as MN 140 points out, when one is truly unagitated one is unbound. The raft has reached the shore, and one can leave it there -- free to go where one likes, in a way that cannot be traced." -------------- KH: Does this leave any doubt in the reader's mind? TB sees anatta as a `raft' in the sense of an `expediency' (a temporary shutting- out of the truth). As for his description of parinibbana, you might say "free to go where one likes, in a way that cannot be traced" is just an unfortunate choice of words. But no, TB repeatedly describes Nibbana in that eternalist way. For example, when discussing how an arahant after parinibbana, is said to be like a `flame gone out' (Aggi- Vacchagotta Sutta) TB tells us how the audience to that sutta would have understood the simile: TB: "Now, although the Vedic texts contain several different theories concerning the physics of fire, there is at least one basic point on which they agree: Fire, even when not manifest, continues to exist in a latent form." Another eternalist definition is found in the article you have quoted above, where TB concludes: "In this sense, the anatta teaching is not a doctrine of no-self, but a not-self strategy for shedding suffering by letting go of its cause, leading to the highest, undying happiness. At that point, questions of self, no-self, and not-self fall aside. Once there's the experience of such total freedom, where would there be any concern about what's experiencing it, or whether or not it's a self?" (end quote) This post has gone too long, but I'd like to address more of your points later. In the meantime, if you or any other members are not convinced of ATI's eternalist leanings, please say so, I think it is a very important matter to settle. Kind regards, Ken H 34783 From: Herman Hofman Date: Sat Jul 24, 2004 4:34am Subject: RE: [dsg] Four foundations of mindfulness- simultaneously? Hi and welcome, Andrew!! >This is how the Buddha meant satipatthana to be practised with regard >to the time periods referenced in the assurance of attainment section, >right? You may find the following useful. Anguttara Nikaya VIII.63 Sankhitta Sutta In Brief (Good Will, Mindfulness, & Concentration) Translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu. Translator's note: This discourse is important in that it explicitly refers to the practice of the four frames of reference (the four foundations of mindfulness) as a form of concentration practice, mastered in terms of the levels of jhana. Herman 34784 From: Date: Sat Jul 24, 2004 2:15am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Buddhadasa, Anapanasati Sutta In a message dated 7/23/04 9:59:15 PM Pacific Daylight Time, rjkjp1@y... writes: How do you think he came to such ideas, did he know Buddhadasa well? Then again Buddhadasa seems be saying the same thing (that formal meditation is not needed)- why do you think he would say so? Robertk === Robert, Where does Buddhadasa say that formal meditation is not needed? Jack 34785 From: Bhikkhu Samahita Date: Sat Jul 24, 2004 4:13am Subject: Luminous is Mind ! Friends: Momentary, Directed, Pointed & Clear The Buddha said I, Bhikkhus, do not know even one other single thing so quickly changing as the mind, insofar as finding just one other phenomena changing equally fast, is not easy. Shining bright, Bhikkhus, is this mind, yet it is indeed obstructed by external defilements. Luminous indeed, Bhikkhus, is that mind, when it is safely released & freed from alien these pollutions. Full Text: http://uk.geocities.com/bhikkhu_samahita/Canon/Sutta/AN/AN.I.8-10.htm All yours in the Dhamma. Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. http://groups.msn.com/DirectDhamma/ http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Buddha-Direct/ http://www.smartgroups.com/groups/TrueDhamma 34786 From: rjkjp1 Date: Sat Jul 24, 2004 7:03am Subject: [dsg] Re: Buddhadasa, Anapanasati Sutta --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jackhat1@a... wrote: > > Then again Buddhadasa seems be saying the same thing (that formal > meditation is not needed)- why do you think he would say so? > Robertk > === > Robert, > > Where does Buddhadasa say that formal meditation is not needed? > > Jack Dear Jack, That was my interpretation of the chapter I cited from his book - did I read it wrong? Robert 34787 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Jul 24, 2004 7:25am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Need clarification on a few subjects Hi, Victor Sorry for the delay in replying. I'm still catching up on posts that came in while I was away. --- yu_zhonghao wrote: > Hi Jon and all, > > One probably won't find in the discourses in which the Buddha > specifically said to use the method of trial and error in practice. > > However, the fact is that in the course of one's practice, he or she > faces different problems/difficulties. There are different methods > to find a solution/solve a problem, and trial and error is one of > them: > > > Humans use not only trial and error but also insight based on an > understanding of principles, inductive and deductive reasoning (see > deduction; induction; and logic), and divergent or creative thinking > (see creativity). Problem-solving abilities and styles may vary > considerably by individual. > > http://www.britannica.com/ebc/article?eu=401247&query=problem% > 20solving&ct= > > For example, one might try different ways to overcome drowsiness > before he or she finds a way that works. > > But let's go back to the original point from which this discussion > on trial and error started: > > "it takes practice and exploration to develop experiential > understanding regarding sati, sampajañña and atappa." Well if, based on your comments above, you were simply making an observation about human nature, that's one thing; but if you were describing the practice as found in or suggested by the texts, then I would definitely disagree ;-)). Jon 34788 From: ericlonline Date: Sat Jul 24, 2004 8:39am Subject: Re: Buddhadasa, Anapanasati Sutta Hey Robert, > > > > --- > Eric: IMHO insight will not arise without samatha. I dont > > > think 'insight' can be cultivated but concentration sure can be. > > +++++++++++++ > > > Buddhadasa: > > """INSlGHT, BY THE NATURE METHOD > > the intensity of > > concentration that comes about naturally is usually sufficient and > > appropriate for introspection and insight, whereas the > concentration > > resulting from organized training is usually excessive, more than > > can be made use of. Furthermore, misguided satisfaction with that > > highly developed concentration may result. Naturally occurring > > concentration, which is sufficient and suitable for use in > > introspection, is harmless, having none of the disadvantages > > inherent in concentration developed by means of intensive training. > > > > So don't overlook this naturally occurring concentration. It is > > something most of us either already have, or can readily develop. > DEEP CONCENTRATION IS A > > MAJOR OBSTACLE TO INSIGHT PRACTICE.""" endquote > > ===========-- > Dear Eric, > Eric: One of my teachers Ajahn Varasak (a student of Buddhadasa) speaks about this all the time. He goes so far in the past in saying that you do not need to formally meditate. (I have gotten him to ease off of this postion as of late). > ========= R > Kind of shocking, still he must have had doubts as you changed his views. E: :-) He is not a man of doubts. He just feels that people are not really meditating but temporarily escaping their lives. He feels sati in each moment of ones life is of more value. I have said repeatedly to him that the mind must have some strength in order to accomplish this. That 'strength' being developed via formal sitting. So, he has come around albeit slowly. He does teach Anapanasati on occasion btw. R: How do you think he came to such ideas, did he know Buddhadasa well? E:Yes, he was at Suan Mokh for 20 or so years. He said he listened to all of his talks while there. > Then again Buddhadasa seems be saying the same thing (that formal > meditation is not needed)- why do you think he would say so? > Robertk E: This same topic just came up on Santikaro's Buddhadasa yahoo group. I lifted it from there and posted it below. Funny how this happens! Santikaro's response starts with ###. PEACE E ----- Another response to an email ... I read "Handbook of Mankind" by Than Buddhadasa and it struck me that he did not emphasize "Sati" or mindfulness as much as other monks. Instead, he placed more importance on "Panya" or wisdom. Please kindly explain why he did not take "Sati" as an important element or essence of mankind. ### I don't think you want to jump to that conclusion. It helps to know the context of the talks from which Handbook for Mankind was made. He was speaking to a bunch of judges in training who were unlikely to meditate much. In the series, there was some attempt to interest the judges-to-be in formal meditation practice, but more of an effort to get them to understand Buddhist principles so that they would be more inclined to ethical behavior in their work & Dhamma understanding in their lives. Perhaps this could lead to interest in introspection, mindfulness, and meditation. Btw, most Buddhists -- including monks & nuns -- in Asia don't meditate much. It can't be assumed as a common interest. Tan Ajarn frequently used the Thai compound term "sati- panya" formed of the Pali terms "sati" and "panya." In modern Thai it means something like "intelligence," but Tan Ajarn's usage also includes sati (mindfulness). If you look thru the Thai original of Handbook for Mankind, I think you'll find this term used often, as well as panya. Throughout his teaching, including the last decade of his life (with which I am most familiar), he treated sati and panya as interdependent. One can acquire the level of knowledge known as sutamayapanya from listening to talks & reading, but the level required for ending dukkha requires well trained sati and samadhi. Still, for those unable to do that training, sutamayapanya is invaluable. In fact, we all do well to acquire it. 34789 From: Date: Sat Jul 24, 2004 4:53am Subject: Re: [dsg] Eternalism on ATI Hi, Andrew (and Ken, and Victor) - In a message dated 7/24/04 2:16:26 AM Eastern Daylight Time, athel60@t... writes: > Hi Howard > > From past discussions, I am aware of your view on anatta and > basically agree with it. However, I just want to clarify some things > about what you term the "nonposition" manifest on Access to Insight > website. > Are you suggesting that the nonposition view tells us to skip over > views and go straight to direct knowing? > ------------------------------------------- Howard: I'm not defending Ven T's "strategy" as a good one, but defending it only in the sense of explaining what I think it is and what it is not. Yes, I think he is so wary of being caught in any view (conceptual framework/proposition) as a substitute for wisdom, that he even includes "right view" as something to be careful of. I would *suspect* that the venerable does not believe there is any self or core to be found in anything, but, like Victor, wants to avoid statements and thoughts of the form "There is no self" as being a conceptual proposition that is clung to despite the impossibility of (direct) proof, where 'proof' means incontrovertable proof as opposed to evidence. I do think that Ven T (and Victor as well) accept the pragmatic cautioning that nothing whatsoever should be grasped at as "me or mine", and I do suspect that the venerable does not believe that there is any lasting, self-existent, substantial core to be found in any phenomena anywhere, but that it is a pragmatic mistake to harden that lack of belief into the belief "There is no self". -------------------------------------------------- > If so, do we skip over Right View (samma-ditthi) as well? Is it > possible to cling to Right View? A concept of Right View? If I > believe "this body is not-self", do I lose points for "holding a > view"? > ------------------------------------------------ Howard: I do not share the venerable's nonposition position. I *do* think that right view as a proposition to be accepted, when held lightly, is essential at the start. I also think that as one progresses, as wisdom develops, the initial "right view" which is taken as a "belief axiom" is steadily replaced by knowledge. However, I see elements of merit in Ven T's position, because any belief, even one which actually happens to accord with the facts, can be clung to, and since a belief is not an adequate substitute for knowledge, that clinging can be a brake on progress. Relinquishment, even of (propositional) right view, is key. ------------------------------------------------ > Doesn't the nonposition attempt to add anatta to the list of > acinteyya (unthinkables)? Why didn't the Buddha himself put it on > that list? > ------------------------------------------------ Howard: I think there is good evidence that the Buddha warned against *clinging* to any views, but especially to wrong views. However, he also explained, conceptually, those leaves that he held in his hand, and he did so to provide a knowledge base "for those with but little dust in their eyes." ------------------------------------------------- > In the Samyutta Nikaya V, when the 500 merchants asked the Buddha how > they should live their lives, he said: "... as to those discourses > uttered by the Tathagata, deep, deep in meaning, transcendental, and > concerned with the void [about anatta] from time to time we will > spend our days learning them." > ------------------------------------------------- Howard: They should indeed be learned, but not clung to for dear life. Even the key position of not-self is very cautiously put forward by the Buddha, because a worldling who has not had glimpses of the way matters really are will grasp such a proposition wrongly, distortedly, as it is filtered through his/her dark glass of ignorance. ------------------------------------------------ > I can't see how this advice fits with the nonposition. Can you? If > the nonposition is correct, wouldn't the Buddha have advised the > merchants *not* to think about anatta, *not* to develop views but > perhaps instead go straight to direct knowing of the void? > Is that possible? > ------------------------------------------------ Howard: I think the nonposition position goes too far. ----------------------------------------------- > These are rhetorical questions about a position/nonposition you > yourself don't actually adhere to so don't feel any obligation to > answer any of them. (-: > ------------------------------------------------- Howard: I understand. And, yes, you are right, I don't adhere to the venerable's position. However, I think it is not the substantialist poition that Ken has understood it to be. ------------------------------------------------- > > Best wishes > Andrew > ======================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 34790 From: Date: Sat Jul 24, 2004 4:59am Subject: Re: [dsg] Egypt Post: Suffering Hi, Jon - In a message dated 7/24/04 5:26:51 AM Eastern Daylight Time, jonoabb@y... writes: > > Hi, Howard > > --- upasaka@a... wrote: >Hi, James - > ... > > Until (and if) we reach the point where excitement is no longer > >craved, what, besides being aware of that craving, can we do to avoid > >the excesses > >it can lead to? I think that we must "start where we are" and engage in > >a form of sublimation. ... > >... for those of us who have had some of our eye-dust removed and have > >come to glimpse the truth of the Dhamma, the jhanas rank highly among > >those > >dhammas that are kusala but also "exciting, different, and unusual" and > >worthy of acquiring if not mastering. > > The aim of having more kusala in our lives is of course an admirable one, > but not one that is easily implemented. For example, before we can begin > to think about the jhanas, we must know something about the development of > samatha of lesser levels. As you say, we need to begin where we are, and > jhana is a long, long way down the track, it seems to me. > > Beginning level samatha is what would be useful to discuss, in my view > (any starters for kindergarten corner ;-))?). > > Jon > > ============================ Certainly not easy - far from it. But the journey of a thousand miles ... .The practice will be pretty much just what it is. The fruits of the practice will be just what they are. We cannot just say, with any hope of success, "Let there be jhana!" ;-)) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 34791 From: Date: Sat Jul 24, 2004 5:07am Subject: Re: [dsg] The Importance of Concentration in One Sentence Hi, Jon - In a message dated 7/24/04 7:37:44 AM Eastern Daylight Time, jonoabb@y... writes: > > Hi, Howard > > --- upasaka@a... wrote: >Hi, all - > > > > In the Upanissa Sutta, the Buddha said "Knowledge &vision of > >things > >as they actually are present has concentration as its prerequisite." > > > >With metta, > >Howard > > > >P.S. This doesn't say "sole prerequisite," and it doesn't say how *much* > >concentration, though it must be enough to bother talking about(!), and, > >IMO, this > >statement says enough for one to realize on the basis of it not to > >shortchange concentration, because a prerequisite is a *necessary* > >condition - a "without which, not" condition! > > Thanks for these comments, Howard. Very useful to consider. > > I notice that a similar relationship is mentioned in the sutta quoted by > Nori in his recent post (from Anguttara Nikaya XI.1, Kimattha Sutta): > > <<"And what is the purpose of concentration? What is its reward?" > "Concentration has knowledge &vision of things as they actually are > as its purpose, knowledge &vision of things as they actually are as > its reward." ...>> > > Would you agree that 'concentration' in these cases would have to be > *kusala* concentration (i.e., concentration that accompanies kusala citta > of one kind or another)? > ------------------------------------------------- Howard: Yes. ------------------------------------------------ How is that kusala concentration to be> > developed, in your view? ----------------------------------------------- Howard: By several means: Study and contemplation of the Dhamma and development of a base of sila, to produce a calm and well directed mind, regular samatha meditation (on appropriate objects), because calm supports concentration, and cultivation of the habit of clearly attending to whatever arises as much as possible. --------------------------------------------- > > Jon ======================= With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 34792 From: ericlonline Date: Sat Jul 24, 2004 9:23am Subject: Re: Four foundations of mindfulness- simultaneously? Hey SO, I've been reading "The Four Foundations of Mindfulness" by Ven. U Silananda and Thanissaro Bhikku's "Wings to Awakening." Surely we all know the Buddha says whoever is practising these four foundations of mindfulness [*each of body, feelings, mind, and dhammas in and of themselves*] for [7 years down to 7 days] can expect gnosis here & now or if there is still some trace of affliction, non-return. My question is, must these all be practised concurrently, or do we merely shift attention to whatever comes to the fore? E: It seems in the beginning, the mind is not capable to keep up with impermanence. So the systematic consideration via the frames is recommended. One of the ideas is to 'realize' (experientially know) what conditions what. By relating and investigating experience to one frame of reference, this knowledge begins to dawn. It is a key component of skillful means. Also, as you begin to see 'things' arise and pass away you begin to not see them as 'things' but as processes that 'you' have little control over. Instead of you and things, the mind begins to see a phenomenology underlying this 'static' view of 'things'. The 'things' and 'you' arise out of this phenomenology due to grasping at the phenomenology. So, what do you grasp at and why? By systematicaly investigating via the 4 frames of reference, you begin to see the make-up of your own 'personal' experience. Patterns begin to emerge i.e. what hindrances specific to you arise and based on what cause. First you need to see the first Truth clearly and then you will be in a better position to do something about it or not. It seems you have some good reference points, now test them! Only you will be able to discern whether they are true or not. My only suggestion is to not hold the conclusions too tightly as they are going to change. PEACE E 34793 From: Date: Sat Jul 24, 2004 5:31am Subject: Re: [dsg] Eternalism on ATI Hi, Ken (and Victor) - In a message dated 7/24/04 7:38:06 AM Eastern Daylight Time, kenhowardau@y... writes: > > Howard, > > Thanks for your response. You wrote: > ------------------------ > >I understand your concern, but I think it is incorrect to > characterize the venerable's position (as given in detail on Access > to Insight at the url: > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/modern/thanissaro/notself.html ) > as "There clearly is a self, and it would be ridiculous to say > otherwise. However, thoughts of self (and of not-self) agitate the > mind and an agitated mind is not free." > > --------------------------- > > KH: Until recently, I would have agreed that was an incorrect > characterisation. I thought Thanissaro Buikkhu's (TB's) choice of > words was often unfortunate, but I always assumed the meaning behind > his words was consistent with the Dhamma. But now I am convinced > the reverse is true. A closer look at ATI indicates overwhelmingly > the venerable does believe in a self but considers it is wrong to > discuss that belief. The article you have cited begins: > ------------- > "One of the first stumbling blocks that Westerners often encounter > when they learn about Buddhism is the teaching on anatta, often > translated as no-self. This teaching is a stumbling block for two > reasons. First, the idea of there being no self doesn't fit well > with other Buddhist teachings, such as the doctrine of kamma and > rebirth: If there's no self, what experiences the results of kamma > and takes rebirth? Second, it > > -------------- > > KH: Do you see what I mean? I think you would agree with me that > the words "doesn't fit well with other Buddhist teachings" were, at > best, badly chosen. We would hope TB would go on to explain that > anatta DOES fit well with "kamma and rebirth" and with all the other > Buddhist teachings. But he doesn't. And the reason he doesn't is he > believes there is a self that acts and receives the results of > actions and there is a self that dies and is reborn. > ------------------------------------------------ Howard: I agree with you that what the venerable says there is (at least) badly put. I *think* that what he is doing is putting himself in the position of one who is hearing the not-self teaching, and explaing the pragmatic difficulties involved. ----------------------------------------------- > > Occasionally, we see DSG contributors making those exact points when > arguing that anatta should not be taken literally. Until now, I had > assumed they were misunderstanding something they had read, but it > seems they had read and understood TB exactly the way he intended. > > To continue quoting the article: > ---------------- > TB: "Second, it doesn't fit well with our own Judeo-Christian > background, which assumes the existence of an eternal soul or self > as a basic presupposition: If there's no self, what's the purpose of > a spiritual life? Many books try to answer these questions, but if > you look at the Pali Canon -- the earliest extant record of the > Buddha's teachings -- you won't find them addressed at all. > > (KH: I would have thought the whole of the Pali Canon addresses the > question, `How there can be existence (paramattha dhamma) without > self,' but that's just my opinion.) > > TB: "In fact, the one place where the Buddha was asked point-blank > whether or not there was a self, he refused to answer. > ----------------- > > TB has a point, of course: In the suttas, the Buddha tends not to > address the question point-blank. But what is the true significance > of that? > > ----------------- > TB: "When later asked why, he said that to hold either that there is > a self or that there is no self is to fall into extreme forms of > wrong view that make the path of Buddhist practice impossible. > ----------------- > > KH: Is that strictly correct? In that particular instance, didn't > the Buddha explain that the questioner was not capable of hearing > the answer without falling into despair? (Sorry for my usual > inability to give references.) ------------------------------------------------ Howard: Yes, the venerable's formulation is slightly off. ------------------------------------------------ > > I think the point is; anatta is a characteristic of dhammas and, > therefore, it is accurate to say, "dhammas are not self" in > preference to, "there is no self." > > ----------------- > TB: "Thus the question should be put aside. > ----------------- > > Does that ring a bell with you? I seem to remember how you, like > many of us here, have been driven almost to distraction trying to > convince one of our members that, spoken or unspoken, there is no > room for the conclusion, "there is a self." The reasoning we use > is; if there are only dhammas and all dhammas are not self, then it > undeniably follows that there is no self. > > But those words fall on deaf ears. And the reason for that can be > traced back to ATI and the writings of Venerable Thanissaro. ---------------------------------------------- Howard: I agree that the no-self proposition is a valid deduction from the content to the Sabba Sutta and from the proposition that sabbe dhamma anatta. I, myself, make that deduction, but I am wary of propositions, even validly deduced ones. There is a question as to the pragmatic value of accepting such propositions as true knowledge, and especially as things to cling to. I believe that Ven T, and Victor as well, see following the road of logical inference as constituting a losing one's way on a side road remote from the noble 8-fold path. --------------------------------------------------- > > -------------- > TB: "To understand what his silence on this question says about the > meaning of anatta, we first have to look at his teachings on how > questions should be asked and answered, and how to interpret his > answers. > --------------- > > KH: TB goes on to explain questions, answers and interpretations in > a way that (IMHO) is unique to his view of the Dhamma. As I was > saying in my previous post, he sees the question of self/not-self as > a cause of stress or agitation. He thinks the Buddhist method is to > avoid the question thereby `freeing the mind from agitation' (his > definition of enlightenment, I think). > ----------------------------------------------- Howard: As I said in my last post on this, I believe he goes too far. ----------------------------------------------- > > In the introduction to his translation of the Alagaddupama Sutta, TB > says: > ---------- > "Thus it is important to focus on how the Dhamma is taught: Even in > his most thoroughgoing teachings about not-self, the Buddha never > recommends replacing the assumption that there is a self with the > assumption that there is no self. Instead, he only goes so far as to > point out the drawbacks of various ways of conceiving the self and > then to recommend dropping them. For example, in his standard series > of questions building on the logic of the inconstancy and stress of > the aggregates, he does not say that because the aggregates are > inconstant and stressful there is no self. He simply asks, When they > are inconstant and stressful, is it proper to assume that they > are "me, my self, what I am"? > > (KH: Does this sound familiar to you, Howard? Do you see how TB has > misled certain people?) > --------------------------------------------------- Howard: I don't see this as attemptin to mislead. The concern, I believe, is with achieving the desired result of liberation, as opposed to revealing conceptual truth. I see this as purely a matter of pragmatics. ----------------------------------------------------- > "Now, because the sense of self is a > product of "I-making," this question seeks to do nothing more than > to induce disenchantment and dispassion for that process of I- > making, so as to put a stop to it. Once that is accomplished, the > teaching has fulfilled its purpose in putting an end to suffering > and stress. That's the safety of the further shore. As the Buddha > says in this discourse, "Both formerly and now, monks, I declare > only stress and the cessation of stress." As he also says here, when > views of self are finally dropped, one is free from agitation; and > as MN 140 points out, when one is truly unagitated one is unbound. > The raft has reached the shore, and one can leave it there -- free > to go where one likes, in a way that cannot be traced." > -------------- > KH: Does this leave any doubt in the reader's mind? TB sees anatta > as a `raft' in the sense of an `expediency' (a temporary shutting- > out of the truth). > > As for his description of parinibbana, you might say "free to go > where one likes, in a way that cannot be traced" is just an > unfortunate choice of words. But no, TB repeatedly describes Nibbana > in that eternalist way. For example, when discussing how an arahant > after parinibbana, is said to be like a `flame gone out' (Aggi- > Vacchagotta Sutta) TB tells us how the audience to that sutta would > have understood the simile: > > TB: "Now, although the Vedic texts contain several different > theories concerning the physics of fire, there is at least one basic > point on which they agree: Fire, even when not manifest, continues > to exist in a latent form." > > Another eternalist definition is found in the article you have > quoted above, where TB concludes: > "In this sense, the anatta teaching is not a doctrine of no-self, > but a not-self strategy for shedding suffering by letting go of its > cause, leading to the highest, undying happiness. At that point, > questions of self, no-self, and not-self fall aside. Once there's > the experience of such total freedom, where would there be any > concern about what's experiencing it, or whether or not it's a > self?" (end quote) > > This post has gone too long, but I'd like to address more of your > points later. In the meantime, if you or any other members are not > convinced of ATI's eternalist leanings, please say so, I think it is > a very important matter to settle. > > Kind regards, > Ken H > > ======================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 34794 From: Date: Sat Jul 24, 2004 6:46am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Buddhadasa, Anapanasati Sutta In a message dated 7/24/04 7:28:04 AM Pacific Daylight Time, rjkjp1@y... writes: Dear Jack, That was my interpretation of the chapter I cited from his book - did I read it wrong? Robert === See Eric's quote of Santikaro on Buddhdhadasa. jack 34795 From: ericlonline Date: Sat Jul 24, 2004 10:56am Subject: [dsg] Re: Anapanasati Sutta > E: Dont sell yourself short Jon. No one knows what the next moment > may bring! J : Your optimism is refreshing! I agree that the next moment can't be predicted (dhammas are anatta, after all); on the other hand, however, we know that everything happens in due order, development is only ever gradual. We should be realistic about where we are at present, don't you think? E : You don't 'know' where you or I am at now do you? Unless you can see kamma. You don't 'know' what you or I have done in our past lives and when those intentions will mature. So we are back to square one. Finding a need to put effort into one's practice. I do 'know' that this will lead to results in this very life! ... > E: I dont think so Jon. There is a big difference between the > foundation or frame of reference one is looking thru and the > insights that 'may' arise. If they were the same, then everyone > would 'realise' the same insight once the frame was set up and that > surely is not the case now is it? J : As I understand, it is the development of satipatthana itself that leads eventually to enlightenment, there being no separate 'intermediate' step,which is why I said that both satipatthana and vipassana are for practical purposes one and the same thing, both referring to the development of insight. See the passages copied below from the beginning and end of the Satipatthana Sutta. E: You really do hold your books close to your chest now dont you?! From the Anapanasati Sutta: "Now how is mindfulness of in-&-out breathing developed & pursued so as to bring the four frames of reference to their culmination? " Then the Buddha goes on and says how. So, he is equating Anapanasati to Satipatthana in that Anapanasati CULMINATES Satipatthana. ---- > E: Yes this is the commentarial view of it right? Use Anapanasati to develope jhana between steps 4 and 5. But there is no mention of > jhana in the Sutta itself. Why? Here is what Thanissaro says about > the Anapanasati Sutta in his intro to it. "One of the most important texts for beginning and veteran meditators alike..." J: What I said about the relationship between anapanasati and insight can be seen from the text of the sutta itself, so I would not describe it as (purely) the commentarial view. The key introductory passages of the sutta make it clear who the teaching is directed to. E: You did not answer my quesition. Where is jhana mentioned in the Anapanasati Sutta? As you seem to be saying you are incapable of jhana so the sutta does not apply to you. Regarding who it is addressed to. My take on it is that it was addressed to a lot of monks with varying abilities and some heavy weight teachers. That the Buddha instructed ALL of them in Anapanasati (teachers and students alike) shows how important this sutta is to a wide range of people with varrying abilities. That there is no specific mention to lay people does not mean much. It was at night in the monastery. So, all the lay people were probably at their own homes (there were no street lamps then you know). Most of the meetings and teachings with lay people happened while the sun was up after a lunch offering. What is the big deal!? What you are deducing from the omission is a stretch at best. Besides, he was instructing or at least telling all the teachers how important Anapanasati is. Who do you think taught all the lay people? They did not have nice bound books with commentaries back then you know. ---- E > May I ask you a personal question? Have you ever been instructed in Anapanasati by a senior monk or meditator? Have you ever practised > it in earnest? J: I don't mind the personal question, Eric, but I really don't think it matters (and I certainly claim no expertise in the area). Surely you are more interested in what the Buddha had to say on the subject than in my personal expereince ;-)) E: That means no. So, if I remember correctly from a recent post, you were criticising someone for forming an opinion about the abhidhamma when they had not even read it and now you have your own opinions about Anapanasati without ever practicing it. Do you think that is fair and proper? ---- > E: You sound like my first meditation teacher. He did not hold > Buddhadasa up to much esteem either. J: My comments were not meant to be any reflection on Ven Buddhadasa, whom I do not know and whose writings I have not really studied. I simply meant to indicate that my reading of the Anapanasati Sutta was quite different – I see it as being about vipassana for the dedicated and advanced anapanasati practitioner (who must also be fairly advanced in satipatthana/vipassansa). For the rest of us, there is plenty of useful, and more relevant, information about vipassana to be found in other suttas. E: What is the harm in 'trying' both? Come on in Jon, I assure you the water is warm and it gets deep gradually! ---- E:> If emptiness arises in meditation then what Buddhadasa had to say in this regards has a lot of merit! J:On the other hand, there is a lot to be said for reading the suttas and commentaries for oneself, since these are readily available in good translation, as I think you agree. E: Of course Jon but I was also speaking from my experience. But if you believe everything in the Suttas to be true, then the Dhamma dissapeared 500 years after the Buddha passed. So, the Visudhimagga is at least 1000 years later so it can't be relevant. And we are all living 2500 years later. So, what are we all doing studying and practicing a Dhamma and its commentaries that reference something that no longer exists? Living in a waking dream? Sweet dreams everyone! PEACE E From 'The Way of Mindfulness' trans of the Satipatthana Sutta: "Thus have I heard. At one time the Blessed One was living in the Kurus, at Kammasadamma, a market-town of the Kuru people. Then the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus as follows: "This is the only way, O bhikkhus, for the purification of beings, for the overcoming of sorrow and lamentation, for the destruction of suffering and grief, for reaching the right path, for the attainment of Nibbana, namely, the Four Arousings of Mindfulness." ... "O bhikkhus, should any person maintain the Four Arousings of Mindfulness in this manner for seven years, then by him one of two fruitions is proper to be expected: Knowledge (Arahantship) here and now; or, if some form of clinging is yet present, the state of Non-Returning (the Third Stage of Supramundane Fulfillment). ... "Because of this was it said: 'This is the only way, O bhikkhus, for the purification of beings, for the overcoming of sorrow and lamentation, for the destruction of suffering and grief, for reaching the right path, for the attainment of Nibbana, namely, the Four Arousings of Mindfulness." 34796 From: ericlonline Date: Sat Jul 24, 2004 11:13am Subject: Re: [dsg] Eternalism on ATI > This post has gone too long, but I'd like to address more of your > points later. In the meantime, if you or any other members are not > convinced of ATI's eternalist leanings, please say so, I think it is a very important matter to settle. > > Kind regards, > Ken H Hey Ken, Go to metta forest monastery and see and ask Thanisarro yourself. You can even call him on the phone. He will probably answer it if he is there! My brief observations, meeting and discussion with him showed me he is a very practical and insightful man. What he is saying is we are stuck in samsara with our pathetic little selves (is this not evident to everyone?) The only thing you or I can do is to begin to practice. So he is offering us a tip while we still cling to this little 'self' of me and mine. He says to use no-self as a srategy till self is gone. When does 'self' disappear? When the conceit 'I am' is gone (i.e. an Arahat). Till then, you can think and 'beieve' that there is no-self but it is not your waking 'reality'. The other thing to keep in mind with any teacher or teaching is the 2 different ways they talk or refer to 'reality'. Relatively there is a 'you' and 'me' but Ultimately there is not. If you do not have a good grasp of these 2 different languages, you are bound to confuse the 2. PEACE E 34797 From: ericlonline Date: Sat Jul 24, 2004 11:28am Subject: Re: [dsg] Eternalism on ATI --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "ericlonline" wrote: > > > This post has gone too long, but I'd like to address more of your > > points later. In the meantime, if you or any other members are not > > convinced of ATI's eternalist leanings, please say so, I think it > is a very important matter to settle. > > > > Kind regards, > > Ken H > > Hey Ken, > > Go to metta forest monastery and see and ask Thanisarro yourself. > You can even call him on the phone. He will probably answer it if he > is there! > > My brief observations, meeting and discussion with him showed me he > is a very practical and insightful man. What he is saying is we are > stuck in samsara with our pathetic little selves (is this not > evident to everyone?) The only thing you or I can do is to begin to > practice. So he is offering us a tip while we still cling to this > little 'self' of me and mine. He says to use no-self as a srategy > till self is gone. When does 'self' disappear? When the conceit 'I > am' is gone (i.e. an Arahat). Till then, you can think and 'beieve' > that there is no-self but it is not your waking 'reality'. > > The other thing to keep in mind with any teacher or teaching is the > 2 different ways they talk or refer to 'reality'. Relatively there > is a 'you' and 'me' but Ultimately there is not. If you do not have > a good grasp of these 2 different languages, you are bound to > confuse the 2. > > PEACE > > E PS self is the raft people! 34798 From: nori Date: Sat Jul 24, 2004 2:26pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Basic thoughts on Sati (awareness), Samahdi (concentration) and Anapana Hi Sarah, Thanks for you reply sarah. It good to hear from you too. peace, nori --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Hi Nori & All, > > I'm very glad to read your posts again- I always enjoy your reflections > and the sharing of your reading, dilemmas and practice. > > I'm touching on two of your posts here: > > --- nori wrote: > hi all, > > Examples of scattered and focused Sati/mindfulness/Awareness: > > > > Lets say we are sitting in a room and there are lots of people > > talking. If we do not focus our awareness we would hear just an > > ocean of sounds. However, our awareness is directable, and > > concentrate-able so we can, by our will and intention, focus on a > > particular person, and a particular voice, and now when we do this, > > we can 'discern' that one voice, his words and then interpret what > > he is saying. > > > > Another example: You stop while driving for directions and while > > someone is telling you directions, somebody else in the car is > > talking to you. Now your awareness is split up between both people > > talking to you. It is more likely that since your awareness was > > divided, that you will not retain those directions; where as if you > > had focused your complete attention/awareness on the person giving > > you the directions, you would have had a more intense/distinct > > experience of it, and you would retain the experience better in this > > case. > .... > S: I think these are good examples of what we're used to considering as > being mindfulness or awareness conventionally but they are not examples, > as I understand, of sati accompanying all wholesome consciousness and > particularly not of sati in satipatthana which is not a focussing or > `retaining in memory'. This kind of focussing or retaining you describe is > seldom wholesome as I see it and doesn't require a Buddha to teach it. > Kids playing computer games are experts! > ... > Jumping to your `is sensual pleasure......' post, I thought it was > beautifully written and raised important concerns. > > I think the difficulties and stress related that your refer to tend to be > related to deeply-held ideas of self and control and setting of rules for > ourselves. It's one thing to see the value in reflecting on and > appreciating the dangers of sensual pleasures and another to try and > orchestrate a lifestyle that is devoid of these, not realizing that the > accumulated tendencies and attachments can arise at anytime, whether on > the mountain bike (I'm keenly following Lance Armstrong in the Tour du > France), in the forest or kuti. Wishing that sensual pleasures would > subside is bound to lead to more stress because at these times there is no > equanimity, but merely more `disquietness of heart'. This doesn't mean I'm > advocating you revert to `your typical American life', but understand that > whatever namas or rupas arise now, are conditioned and can be known. > > In a post to Christine, I referred to a sutta about Uttara, Nanda's > mother, who experienced no `disquietness of heart' when her son was slain > and so on. The reason I find such suttas to be so very inspiring is > certainly not because there is or would be any lack of `disquietness' in > my own heart, but because life is so very tough when we experience great > loss and to a lesser extent on a daily basis, that it is with great > appreciation and gratiude that we can read about those `sappurisa' or > noble friends who penetrated the Truths, developed wisdom with detachment > and found the way to overcome Suffering in its deepest sense as applying > to all conditioned dhammas. > > As James put it: > > "When I ponder this quagmire of suffering that we are all caught in, and > the only solution for us all that the Buddha found, my appreciation of the > Buddhadhamma grows to a point beyond description." > > Metta, > > Sarah > ====== 34799 From: suicidal_one2004 Date: Sat Jul 24, 2004 11:30am Subject: Re: Four foundations of mindfulness- simultaneously? --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "ericlonline" wrote: > Hey SO, > > I've been reading "The Four Foundations of Mindfulness" by Ven. U > Silananda and Thanissaro Bhikku's "Wings to Awakening." > > Surely we all know the Buddha says whoever is practising these four > foundations of mindfulness [*each of body, feelings, mind, and > dhammas in and of themselves*] for [7 years down to 7 days] can > expect gnosis here & now or if there is still some trace of > affliction, non-return. > > My question is, must these all be practised concurrently, or do we > merely shift attention to whatever comes to the fore? > > > > E: It seems in the beginning, the mind is not capable to keep up > with impermanence. So the systematic consideration via the frames is > recommended. One of the ideas is to 'realize' (experientially know) > what conditions what. By relating and investigating experience to > one frame of reference, this knowledge begins to dawn. It is a key > component of skillful means. > > It seems you have some good reference points, now test them! Only > you will be able to discern whether they are true or not. My only > suggestion is to not hold the conclusions too tightly as they are > going to change. > > PEACE > > E So you are saying establish one of the four foundations of mindfulness well and discern the truths related to that before rousing the others, and 'getting it together,' am I right? It seems you are also referencing mindfulness of feelings (mind) to investigate anicca and anatta which seems reasonable to me esp. on the meditation cushion, but I have traditionally looked through anicca via mindfulness of feelings of the body (pleasant, painful, or neutral). peace, andrew levin