35800 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Aug 27, 2004 11:34am Subject: Re: [dsg] seeing and seeking benefits Hello Phil, Seeing the benefit of kusala. When we see how many conditions for kusala are necessary for its arising it helps to cling less to my kusala. More understanding bolsters confidence in kusala. You read and study, this is mental development, a condition for confidence in kusala to grow. Knowing about the possibilities for kusala, such as the ten bases for wholesome deeds (A. Sujin's book) are most helpful. She also says that all the perfections have to be developed, none excepted. Thus also pañña, this is one of the perfections. When we read and study it is pariyatti, and this has to sink in, it has to become firmer. The level of patipatti, practice, that is, direct awareness of realities, will develop because it is conditioned by pariyatti. When A. Sujin says, let it come by conditions it does not mean that there should not be development. But it does not help to think: what perfection shall I develop today? This is only thinking. In the Dhammasangani, the first book of the Abhidhamma, all the sobhana cetasikas are enumerated that are necessary for kusala citta with pañña. This deals actually with the first of the eight types of mahaakusala citta, that is accompanied by paññaa. Necessary factors are among others, saddhaa, confidence, sati, alobha, adosa, passaddhi, and many other cetasikas. Strong confidence in the Triple Gem and in the Path taught by the Buddha is a condition for kusala citta. For the arising of mahaakusala citta with paññaa many conditions are necssary, not only conditions that are present but also factors of the past. At what time or occasion... we read, and then all the cetasikas are summed up. The Atthasaalinii, the Co. to the Dhammasanganii, elaborates on the meaning of occasion, samaya. I touched on this already in connection with the sutta on the four Wheels. Here is what I wrote before: Nina. op 27-08-2004 00:55 schreef plnao op plnao@j...: > Reading Nina's "Perfections" this morning came across this bit, which I > have always liked: > > "We may think that I can develop the perfections, but it depends on the > accumulated conditions which kind of kusala can arise. When we see the > benefit of all the perfections there will be conditions to develop them all, > without there being the need to think, I should develop the perfection." 35801 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Aug 27, 2004 11:33am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: cita and cetasikas, Htoo and Rob M Dear Rob M and Htoo, Please, can it be in little portions in dsg? Many are interested, I liked the dialogue between both of you. If the posts are kept short it is easier. I have no time to go to the files, sorry. Nina. op 27-08-2004 02:06 schreef robmoult op rob.moult@j...: > Given your knowledge of the Abhidhamma and your capability of seeing > things as if it were the first time, I suspect that your review > would be far too lengthy to fit into a DSG message. Perhaps you > could send me your comments as a file attachment to an email message. 35802 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Aug 27, 2004 11:34am Subject: Re: [dsg] stages of insight. Hi Howard, op 27-08-2004 02:33 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: > Some of the modern meditation masters, Ven U Pandita, for example, do describe > the distinguishing of nama from rupa as one of the stages of insight. I > suppose > they base that on Abhidhamma and the commentaries. N: also in the Patisambhidaamagga, the Path of Discrimination, which is very clear on this. But the enumeration of the stages differ, it begins with the second stage of tender insight, discerning conditions (p. 51). This work belongs to the Khuddhaka Nikaya. Also the Visuddhimagga and other commentaries deal with the stages, beginning with the first one. As far as I know it is not in the Abhidhamma. But I may have overlooked it. Nina. 35803 From: htootintnaing Date: Fri Aug 27, 2004 0:06pm Subject: [dsg] Re: cita and cetasikas, Htoo and Rob M Dear Nina, Rob M, and All, Files can be discussed little by little. I hope we will be able to do so soon. With Metta, Htoo Naing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > Dear Rob M and Htoo, > Please, can it be in little portions in dsg? Many are interested, I liked > the dialogue between both of you. If the posts are kept short it is easier. > I have no time to go to the files, sorry. > Nina. > op 27-08-2004 02:06 schreef robmoult op rob.moult@j...: > > > Given your knowledge of the Abhidhamma and your capability of seeing > > things as if it were the first time, I suspect that your review > > would be far too lengthy to fit into a DSG message. Perhaps you > > could send me your comments as a file attachment to an email message. 35804 From: Date: Fri Aug 27, 2004 8:08am Subject: Re: [dsg] stages of insight. Hi, Nina - Thank you for this information. In a message dated 8/27/04 2:55:13 PM Eastern Daylight Time, nilo@e... writes: > > Hi Howard, > op 27-08-2004 02:33 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: > > >Some of the modern meditation masters, Ven U Pandita, for example, do > describe > >the distinguishing of nama from rupa as one of the stages of insight. I > >suppose > >they base that on Abhidhamma and the commentaries. > N: also in the Patisambhidaamagga, the Path of Discrimination, which is very > clear on this. > ---------------------------------------- Howard: Ahh, I see. But that is more of a "semi-sutta" (or collection of such). It's a very late addition to the canon and has a flavor all its own (rather different, it seems to me, from both sutta, abhidhamma, and commentary, though most like a suttic-commentarial mix). ---------------------------------------- But the enumeration of the stages differ, it begins with the> > second stage of tender insight, discerning conditions (p. 51). This work > belongs to the Khuddhaka Nikaya. Also the Visuddhimagga and other > commentaries deal with the stages, beginning with the first one. As far as I > know it is not in the Abhidhamma. But I may have overlooked it. --------------------------------------- Howard: I would doubt that you missed it, Nina! ;-) I guess this is mainly a commentarial subject. --------------------------------------- > Nina. > ==================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 35805 From: htootintnaing Date: Fri Aug 27, 2004 0:21pm Subject: [dsg] Re: cita and cetasikas Dear Nina, Thank you very much for your message. That is why I am posting 'Dhamma Thread'. The thread is so far about cittas. With Metta, Htoo Naing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > Hi AL, > there is no rule what to study first, but if there is no basic understanding > of citta it is difficult to understand the cetasikas that accompany citta. > We have to know which cittas are cause, which are result, which are neither. > The cetasikas that accompany citta are conditioned by the citta and the > citta is conditioned by the accompanying cetasikas. It is all very > intricate. > Nina. > op 26-08-2004 18:13 schreef Andrew Levin op andrewlevin@e...: > > > I am reading cetasikas by Nina, 35806 From: htootintnaing Date: Fri Aug 27, 2004 0:32pm Subject: Jhana Journey ( 06 ) Dear Dhamma Friends, The jhana practitioner is now concentrating on his patibaga nimitta which is the object of his current meditation, which again is in his early stage of developing jhana. But he frequently lapses into other arammanas from this patibhaga nimitta which is very very beautiful. This has to happen because his view on patibaga nimitta may distort him and lead him to nivarana dhamma, which prevent him from progressing to jhana. If he is too fond of the arammana of patibaga, he will slip into kamacchandha nivarana or hindrance related to sensuous matters. It is nothing but all thoughts related to sensual things. Sights, sounds, smell, taste, and touch of desirable senses will invite him to stick on them. These thoughts may also lead to sex things and finally already acquired patibaga nimitta will run out. So it is quite important that the practitioner is very cautious not to lapse into these sorts of things. Controlling and supressing these thoughts may sometimes be very difficult. On some occasions, the practitioner may think that he is now in a good position that he can realize the jhana thing as an initial. He may become proud and this may indirectly invite anger and related things. These thoughts are another dhamma that hinders the jhana. It is byapada nivarana or hindrance of aversion or hatred. Any thoughts related to this nivarana will lead to unnecessary events. And he may end with total abolishment of his already acquired patibaga nimitta. May you all be able to control unarising nivaranas. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 35807 From: htootintnaing Date: Fri Aug 27, 2004 0:57pm Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 049 ) Dear Dhamma Friends, 3 sets of rupavacara cittas that is rupakusala cittas, rupavipaka cittas, and rupakiriya cittas in general has been discussed in the previous posts. 54 kamavacara cittas have been discussed earlier. There are in total 89 cittas according to their unique nature. 55th citta in its full name is called 'vitakka, vicara, piti, sukhekaggata sahitam pathamajjhana kusala citta'. Vitakka is vitakka cetasika, vicara is vicara cetasika and piti is piti cetasika. Sukhekaggata is sukha and ekaggata. Sukha is vedana cetasika of pleasant feeling. Saha means 'in common with' 'in combination with' 'along with' 'in parallel with'. Pathama means 'the first'. Jhana means 'very closely' that is so close that approaching things are both seem to be fused. This is sometimes referred to as absorption. Approaching things here means 'the object' and 'the citta'. The citta approaches to the object very closely and seems to be merged with the object. Jhana also means a dhamma that can drive out nivarana dhamma or hindrances. Jhana is dhamma that can dry out firy defilements or kilesa. When someone climb up the watch tower and see the view there is no obstruction and he can clearly see the view what is approaching,what is leaving and who are coming in and who are going out. Like watch-tower man, jhana cittas do not have any obstruction in viewing their object. No obstruction here means there is nothing in between jhana citta and jhana object. This means they are fused. They each merges into each other. This merging is called appama samadhi in terms of concentration. But jhana has many meanings. And people used to confuse jhana, samadhi, absorption and so on. Jhana as a simple word can be anything that is stick to a single thing. If someone is well concentrated in his bodily posture he is said to be in sport jhana. Fishermen do have a good concentration at their pole. But jhana is these situations are not jhana cittas but kusala and akusala cittas with very very good concentration. Jhana in rupavacara jhana cittas are higher cittas. They are called mahaggata cittas. Maha means 'great' 'superior'. Because in these jhana cittas there always is pannindriya cetasikas while in kusala and akusala jhana there is no pannindriya cetasika. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS:Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome and they will be valuable. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts. 35808 From: kenhowardau Date: Fri Aug 27, 2004 6:07pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Cooran 13-15 August, 2004 Hi Howard, You respond to messages very quickly whereas I fall behind. This was an old one: >----------------- >KH [to Eric]: > > There is no point >in concentrating on either the bodily activities or the thoughts >that arise >> in the course of the day. It is only the khandhas (conditioned >> realities (nama and rupa)) that form the four foundations of right >> mindfulness (satipatthana). > > ---------------------------- H: > Don't be precipitous here, Ken. For the most part, where we are "situated," we are unaware of paramattha dhammas, but live in a world of concept. Where, then, are we to find the khandhic elements? ----------------------------- KH: I know you hate this stock reply, but I love it; "There is no self who can find paramattha dhammas!" As soon as you want to find them, there is lobha, attachment. In that unskilful moment, there is no satipatthana (no finding of "khandhic elements"). But there are dhammas – notably lobha – and so one of those present dhammas can become the object of right understanding. But if, again, there is attachment to the idea of `finding that lobha' there is still no satipatthana. It might seem as if the answer is, "Stop trying!" but there is no self who can stop anything. Satipatthana will arise when the conditions for its arising have been put in place. When the true Dhamma has been heard, correctly explained and wisely considered, then satipatthana will follow. ----------------------- H: > In order for us to uncover the hardness, visual aspect, etc underlying our "tree constructs," we need to examine our "tree experiences." That's where the paramattha dhammas lurk, "within" pa~n~natti. > ----------------------- I see your point, and I see that it hinges on our on-going discussion, "A thought is - or is not - a paramattha dhamma." If, in a moment of pannatti, citta did in fact have a paramattha dhamma as its object, then there could be satipatthana because panna could potentially see one of the inherent characteristics of that paramattha dhamma (its mentality, physicality, conditionality or anicca, etc.). But, no, at this stage in our discussion, I remain confident the object of that citta is illusory (non-existent). ------------------------ H: > When the Buddha taught his disciples to attend to the the breath - and he *did* so instruct them – ------------------------- If he did `instruct' anybody, it was not in the conventional sense of the word. But, given that he did, did he instruct all disciples to attend to the breath or just some of them – and which of them were they? ------------------------ H: > he knew what he was doing. When his students did as he instructed, they came to discover that all that really arose, interrelatedly, were earth (to some extent), air, fire, and water, and derivatives of these that were body-door sensations such as touchings, tinglings, itchings, etc. > ------------------------- If a jhana meditator were to be so fortunate as to also be instructed in satipatthana, then he might, one day, directly see jhana-citta in a moment of satipatthana. But the object of jhana- citta (being a mere concept) will never be seen with satipatthana. (Addendum: I will admit I am not sure if there isn't an exception in the case of meditation on breath. At some point in DSG's discussions, I gained the impression that the highest form of jhana absorption actually has rupa as its object. I am pretty sure now that I misunderstood what I was reading, but there is still that niggling confusion.) ----------------- H: > Pa~n~natti appear to have the tilakkhana as well (derivatively), and seeing these in pa~n~natti constitutes a first step on the path. When the Buddha said that birth is dukkha, death is dukkha, not getting what one wants is dukkha, etc, he was talking about pa~n`natti! ------------------ This brings us back to those conventional designations we have been talking about. It has to be kept in mind that the Buddha was always explaining the nature of conditioned and unconditioned reality. He expressly made that point on occasions, but he didn't always give reminders. In the case you are talking about (Dhammacakkappavattana- sutta), he did give a reminder: he added, "In short, the five khandhas are dukkha." Kind regards, Ken H --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Ken (and Eric) - > > I believe, Ken, that while speaking truly for the most part, you are yet speaking in a manner that lends itself to confusion. I believe that you are overstating. I will add more below, in context. > > In a message dated 8/21/2004 1:47:13 AM Eastern Daylight Time, "kenhowardau" writes: > > > > >Hi Eric, > > > >------------------------ > ><. . . > > >KH: > > Concepts are illusions, and so > >> > they are not included in the five khandhas. 35809 From: kenhowardau Date: Fri Aug 27, 2004 6:15pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Cooran 13-15 August, 2004 Hi Herman, Still catching up on old messages: thanks for waiting :-) ----------------------- H: > > Ken, > You wrote to Eric: > > You have said to me that concepts should be investigated, but that is not the Middle Way. With the best will in the world, the investigation of concepts will only come up with more concepts. And even then there will be disagreement (based on religion, culture, philosophy, personal opinions etc.). > > -------------------- H: > I disagree with your findings re investigation of concepts. When I investigate concepts I find intentionality to lie at all their foundations. Concepts are made by intention. What is thought is what is meant, and what is meant is what is thought. I find it priceless and oh-so paramattha. ------------- KH: That sounds right to me: whenever there is a concept (e.g., "a tree") then there is intention (cetana) and its associated sankharas. But they are not known at that precise moment. At the moment of "tree awareness" there is no awareness of cetana. So the paramattha dhammas known as `thinking' (cetana, vicara, vitakka, etc.) can be known with satipatthana but not so, "tree." --------------- H: > Perhaps we investigate differently. ---------------- How do you investigate? I assume we are talking about some sort of Buddhist meditation: we are not talking about how a scientist investigates H2O, for example. When I used to indulge in formal Buddhist meditation (forgive the oxymoron) I would concentrate on concepts; sometimes with the aim of seeing them arising, persisting and falling away. One instruction manual had me hearing a birdcall with the understanding; "beginning of birdcall" "middle of birdcall" "end of birdcall." That is why I was saying to Eric that the investigation of concepts just comes up with more concepts. Kind regards, Ken H 35810 From: Date: Fri Aug 27, 2004 5:40pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Cooran 13-15 August, 2004 Hi, Ken - In a message dated 8/27/04 9:08:26 PM Eastern Daylight Time, kenhowardau@y... writes: > > Hi Howard, > > You respond to messages very quickly whereas I fall behind. This > was an old one: > >----------------- > >KH [to Eric]: >>There is no point > >in concentrating on either the bodily activities or the thoughts > >that arise > >>in the course of the day. It is only the khandhas (conditioned > >>realities (nama and rupa)) that form the four foundations of > right > >>mindfulness (satipatthana). >> > ---------------------------- > H: >Don't be precipitous here, Ken. For the most part, where we > are "situated," we are unaware of paramattha dhammas, but live in a > world of concept. Where, then, are we to find the khandhic elements? > ----------------------------- > > KH: I know you hate this stock reply, but I love it; "There is no > self who can find paramattha dhammas!" > ----------------------------------------- Howard: Gee, no kidding! Yes, I know that, Ken - no self. (And, of course, you know that I know that - even though both you and I say "I" and "you" and "we" etc, etc) This sort of a reply is just an avoidance technique, Ken. You are simply not addressing what I said, which is that dhammas, actual elements of experience, are to be found as the realities underlying those unrealities that pose as realities and constitute the objects of our mind-created world. So, it is at pa~n~natti, such as the breath, that one must look to find realities. ------------------------------------------ As soon as you want to find > > them, there is lobha, attachment. In that unskilful moment, there is > no satipatthana (no finding of "khandhic elements"). But there are > dhammas – notably lobha – and so one of those present dhammas can > become the object of right understanding. But if, again, there is > attachment to the idea of `finding that lobha' there is still no > satipatthana. > > It might seem as if the answer is, "Stop trying!" but there is no > self who can stop anything. > ----------------------------------------------- Howard: Volition occurs, Ken. It doesn't *require* a self that wills. All that is required is the willing. Think about the doctrine of hopelessness and helplessness you are propagating here, Ken. The Buddha didn't teach it! ------------------------------------------------ Satipatthana will arise when the > > conditions for its arising have been put in place. When the true > Dhamma has been heard, correctly explained and wisely considered, > then satipatthana will follow. ------------------------------------------------ Howard: Oh, but Ken, wouldn't you, yourself, respond to this by saying "There is no self to consider wisely"? So, I guess that wise consideration must be impossible!! Ken, is there no volition in your world? If there is none, then you might as well give up on Buddhism immediately - because the Buddha instructed his followers to DO things. The Buddha believed that kamma is a reality, Ken. And kamma = volition. ------------------------------------------------ > > ----------------------- > > H: >In order for us to uncover the hardness, visual aspect, etc > underlying our "tree constructs," we need to examine our "tree > experiences." That's where the paramattha dhammas lurk, "within" > pa~n~natti. > > ----------------------- > > I see your point, and I see that it hinges on our on-going > discussion, "A thought is - or is not - a paramattha dhamma." If, > in a moment of pannatti, citta did in fact have a paramattha dhamma > as its object, then there could be satipatthana because panna could > potentially see one of the inherent characteristics of that > paramattha dhamma (its mentality, physicality, conditionality or > anicca, etc.). But, no, at this stage in our discussion, I remain > confident the object of that citta is illusory (non-existent). > > ------------------------ > H: >When the Buddha taught his disciples to attend to the the > breath - and he *did* so instruct them – > ------------------------- > > If he did `instruct' anybody, it was not in the conventional sense > of the word. > ------------------------------------------- Howard: Nonsense. ------------------------------------------- But, given that he did, did he instruct all disciples > > to attend to the breath or just some of them – and which of them > were they? ----------------------------------------- Howard: Oh, please, Ken. You seem to want to try everything under the sun in order to not accept the obvious. The Buddha didn't instruct his followers, or at least not in the usual sense, or if he did, then he only instructed "special ones". But how could he instruct even special ones to attend to the breath, Ken? Didn't the Buddha know that there is no self to attend to anything!! (Isn't that what you would say?) -------------------------------------- > > ------------------------ > H: >he knew what he was doing. When his students did as he > instructed, they came to discover that all that really arose, > interrelatedly, were earth (to some extent), air, fire, and water, > and derivatives of these that were body-door sensations such as > touchings, tinglings, itchings, etc. > > ------------------------- > > If a jhana meditator were to be so fortunate as to also be > instructed in satipatthana, then he might, one day, directly see > jhana-citta in a moment of satipatthana. But the object of jhana- > citta (being a mere concept) will never be seen with satipatthana. > ---------------------------------------------- Howard: How did this topic of jhana meditation arise? In any case, the Buddha taught anapanasati as a complete meditation technique, encompassing both samatha and vipassana bhavana, and capable of taking one "all the way". So meditating on a conventional phenomenon, namely the breath, leads one to seeing reality and to complete and final enlightenment! ---------------------------------------------- > > (Addendum: I will admit I am not sure if there isn't an exception in > the case of meditation on breath. At some point in DSG's > discussions, I gained the impression that the highest form of jhana > absorption actually has rupa as its object. I am pretty sure now > that I misunderstood what I was reading, but there is still that > niggling confusion.) > > ----------------- > H: >Pa~n~natti appear to have the tilakkhana as well > (derivatively), and seeing these in pa~n~natti constitutes a first > step on the path. When the Buddha said that birth is dukkha, death > is dukkha, not getting what one wants is dukkha, etc, he was talking > about pa~n`natti! > ------------------ > > This brings us back to those conventional designations we have been > talking about. It has to be kept in mind that the Buddha was always > explaining the nature of conditioned and unconditioned reality. He > expressly made that point on occasions, but he didn't always give > reminders. In the case you are talking about (Dhammacakkappavattana- > sutta), he did give a reminder: he added, "In short, the five > khandhas are dukkha." --------------------------------------------- Howard: I don't understand your point. Is this a reply to what I said? ------------------------------------------ > > Kind regards, > Ken H > > ======================= With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 35811 From: plnao Date: Sat Aug 28, 2004 5:10am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Bagels, Forest & Happy Walks Hello Andrew Nice to meet you. I've enjoyed reading your posts since I got back from my holiday. You ask great questions and have great enthusiasm. I feel we are both new to Nina's books and the Abhidhamma approach and so I have a kindred feeling towards you. I could really relate to this: > I still get caught up in mischief online and it > will be my undoing if I can't conquer it. But when I take walks > outside I am established in virtue and purified. That sounds like it could be me so what I write below will be as much to me as to you. Re the mischief --- I have always thought in terms of "conquer" as well, and have considered the battle won only to have the enemy forces arise in a sudden and unexpected way to pull me back into the mire. I think intending to win this battle is asking for suffering, because kamma and accumulations are playing out beyond our control. Well, there is control but isn't it very, very subtle, dealing with wisdom that gradually is cultivated over many lifetimes rather than will power that is grasped and yielded in a matter of weeks or months? Will power must surely involve self-image, and we know that self-image must surely involve wrong view. This is nothing new to you, of course. On the other hand, it's true that there are some forms of unwholesomeness that are so gross that it seems that a will-driven approach to them here and now might be possible. We feel so clearly how degrading they are. So why not actively remove them from our lives? And then it will be the subtler forms of defilements that are eradicated over countless lives. I am curious about gross vs subtle defilements, and whether an active attack on gross defilements might not be more possible than our understanding of Abhidhamma would allow for. But why do I think this when I have recently been reminded that even the grossest defilements are beyond my control? What is possible is a new response when they arise. Perhaps, thanks to a bit of beginner's wisdom, I won't recoil in disgust and shame. Shame is something that can arise before, to help to prevent an unwholesome deed, rather than after, when it is pointless. I won't escape into self-serving virtuous behaviour to try to pay off my debt. That doesn't work. I will look at what happened and reflect on the conditions that came together to make it happen. I will reflect on the shortcomings of the pleasure I received from the deed. I won't compound the unwholesomeness and give more life to it by identifying with it, which is what I'm doing if I feel undone by it. How can I be undone by it unless I am identifying with it? It is not self. I am not self. I like Samyutta Nikaya XXXVI.6 , the Dart: "When an untaught worldling is touched by a painful (bodily) feeling, he worries and grieves, he laments, beats his breast, weeps and is distraught. He thus experiences two kinds of feelings, a bodily and mental feeling. It is as if a man were pierced by a dart and, following the first piercing, he is hit by a second dart......Having been touched by that painful feeling, he resists (and resents) it. Then in him who so resists (and resents) that painful feeling, an underlying tendency of resistance against that painful feeling comes to underlie (his mind).... This is referring to a painful (bodily) feeling, but it seems to me that it might apply to one painful mental feeling being compounded by more of the same. It seems to me that the resistance referred to above is all about clinging to the feeling aggregate and identifying with it - which is wrong understanding. We resist the painful feeling and maybe escape into the opposite, pleasant feeling. Different feeling --- deeper, compounded dukkha. If we beat ourselves about the head for having done some mischief, we will be living out the process depicted in the sutta above, I guess. Re the walks : I can relate to this. We really do feel "established in virtue" when we walk. And there are so many people that give rise to brahma-viharas. (metta et al.) Wishing you many happy walks this autumn. Anyways, Andrew, I've babbled a bit and offered you nothing that you don't already know. But just to let you know that I'm rooting for you. Let's do our best to stay out of mischief, but when there is mischief it needn't be our undoing, as you put it, because we are already undone (dukkha, annica and annata) by nature. And remembering that fact when we misbehave can help to condition the arising of wholesomeness that is beyond our will power, I guess. Metta, Phil 35812 From: htootintnaing Date: Sat Aug 28, 2004 0:28pm Subject: Jhana Journey ( 07 ) Dear Dhamma Friends, Even though the jhana practitioner obtains patibaga nimitta or counter image as his white kasina bhavana object, he may sometimes slips into trains of thoughts and those trains run here and there. Occasionally, he may think about the past and occasionally about the future. These thoughts if they cannot be stopped, the practitioner may lose his patibaga as his thought may sink into kamacchandha- nivarana or sensual thoughts or alternatively he may sink into byapada-nivarana or aversive thoughts. This third nivarana is put under the nivarana of udacca-kukkucca. udacca is spreading of mind and losing of concontration. Spreading mind for example can be noticed in case of grief when one who is a very close relative such as own father or mother or brother or sister or close relative dies. Kukkucca is thoughts related to repent. He may think that ''Oh! I have been wrong in that I did not practice this kind of Dhamma.'' Or he may think that ''Oh! I did a lot of bad things.'' All these thoughts never add constructive things. The fourth nivarana is thina-middha. Thina is sluggishness of citta or inactive mind. Middha is sluggishness of cetasikas or mental factors or inactive mental faculties. When these laziness start to appear the practice becomes slow down and may come to a stop. Then the patibaga will go away and the practitioner will have to restart everything again. The fifth nivarana in jhana is vicikiccha. It is a kind of suspicion. If suspicion arise and it directs to the practice then the belief in the present practice will go deep down to the bottom. As the belief in the practice has gone then there will be no further progress in jhana practice. For jhana 5 nivarana suffice for understanding jhana and its enemies. The jhana practitioner must diligently practice on the arammana of patibaga nimitta which is nimitta panatta. When he can concentrate on that he will be calm more and more. But these nivarana arise very frequently. But if he can recognize them and timely stop them the frequency will be less and less in his later prtactice. Finally there is total clearance of nivarana at least for a defined period. Before patibaga nimitta is seen, the practice of the jhana practitioner is called parikamma bhavana. From arising of patibaga nimitta to total clearance of 5 nivarana is called upacara bhavana. Now the jhana practitioner's mind is clear and he has only and only one arammana that is patibaga. May you all be able to eliminate nivarana which hinder jhana. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 35813 From: htootintnaing Date: Sat Aug 28, 2004 1:15pm Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 050 ) Dear Dhamma Friends, The 55th citta of 89 total citta is called 'vitakka, vicara, piti, sukhekaggata sahitam pathamajjhana rupakusala citta'. Each word has been touched in the previous post. To understand jhana, we have to understand what vitakka, vicara, piti, sukha and ekaggata means. These 5 factors are called jhana factors or jhana anga that is jhananga. All these five are cetasika dhamma. But in this 55th citta there are also other cetasika apart from these 5 jhana factors. Among five, vitakka needs to be understood in detail. Vitakka here is not ordinary vitakka. This vitakka that arises in jhana is called jhana vitakkas. There are many vitakka. If vitakka is just simply translated as thought, this will not help much. There are many different vitakka. Kamavitakka, byapadavitakka, vihimsavitakka, jhanavitakka, and so on. Vitakka is one of 52 cetasikas. There are a total of 52 cetasikas. But they do not arise all 52 in any cittas. Cittas get their names because of these accompanying cetasikas and cittas are classified differently because of these cetasika. Examples are dosa citta, lobha cittas where dosa cetasika arises and lobha cetasika arises. Vitakka can arise in 55 cittas if total cittas are counted as 121 cittas. In higher jhanas vitakka does not arise and so vitakka will arise in 4 1st jhana magga cittas, 4 1st jhana phala cittas, and 3 lokiya 1st jhana cittas that is 1st jhana rupakusala citta, 1st jhana rupavipaka citta and 1st jhana rupakiriya citta. There are 54 kamavacara cittas. But amoong them 10 pancavinnana cittas do not have vitakka as their accompanying cetasika. Because pancavinnana cittas do not need initial application for their arising and they have to arise because of presence of arammana, support of vatthu and conditioning by pancadvaravajjana citta. So vitakka does not arise in 10 dvipancavinnana cittas. Therefore 44 kamavacara cittas and 11 1st jhana cittas altogether 55 cittas of 121 cittas do have vitakka as their accompanying cetasika. Vitakka does apply to the object. Vitakka put citta on to the object of attention. Putting on the object is its main function. It applies to the object. It has pushing force toward the object. Vitakka has a friend called vicara. Because they almost always arise together. The only cittas that vitakka does not follow vicara are 11 2nd jhana cittas. Otherwise, there always are these two cetasika arise together. They are friends because they jobs are quite similar. As in case of vitakka, vicara also applies the citta to the object of attention. But this application is not like vitakka, the force is like from the object even though it actually is not. That is vicara is stick to the object and does not depart from the object. This indirectly means that it wanders over the object again and again. This is not departing and sustaining the citta there on the object because of that force from the object. Vicara functions as reviewer of the object. There are some similes regarding the combination of vitakka and vicara. 1) When a bird is resting on the ground, he folds his wings up. But when it starts to fly away, the initial force that raise him up is said to be like vitakka and when he continue his flying away is said to be like vicara. 2) When a man row a boat, initial force that he makes is said to be like vitakka and when he continues to row is said to be like vicara. So vicara is assumed as sustained thought, sustained application etc etc. 3) When a bee approaches a flower, he dives down to the folwer and this is said to be like vitakka and when he continues to wander and round over the flower is said to be like vicara. 4) When a child put a pinpound ball on a table is said to be like vitakka and when the ball continues to roll over the table is said to be like vicara. Vitakka pushes while vicara pulls. 5) When rain water flow down from the gutter to the container is said to be like vitakka and the rain water's continueing flow inside the container is said to be like vicara. They are pair and they are friends. Their jobs are similar in that they both apply the citta to the object. But the way of application is a bit different. Vitakka pushes the citta toward the object. But vicara pulls the citta toward the object. While vicara is doing sustained pulling vitakka hits the object, pushes the citta toward the object, vitakka strikes the object. In this case anyway vitakka is much much more rougher and stronger than vicara and vitakka is much more apparent than vicara. As vitakka has a strong force of pushing toward the object, vitakka may go anywhere. That is why the jhana practitioners, vipassana practitioners or mahasatipatthana practitioners frequently go out of the object of their primary attention. When the practitioner becomes calmer and calmer and well concentrated, most of cittas that arise will go to the object of jhana instead of going outside of this object of attention. When this stillness arise the arising vitakkas are nearly jhanavitakkas. But real jhanavitakka only arises at the time of jhana citta arises. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: 1)Vitakka is not simple thinking or thoughts. Vitakka is not concentration. : 2)Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome and they will be valuable. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts. 35814 From: plnao Date: Sat Aug 28, 2004 3:44pm Subject: Re: [dsg] seeing and seeking benefits Hello Nina Thanks for taking the time to respond to my post. Nina: Seeing the benefit of kusala. When we see how many conditions for kusala are necessary for its arising it helps to cling less to my kusala.... In the Dhammasangani, the first book of the Abhidhamma, all the sobhana cetasikas are enumerated that are necessary for kusala citta with pañña. This deals actually with the first of the eight types of mahaakusala citta, that is accompanied by paññaa. Necessary factors are among others, saddhaa, confidence, sati, alobha, adosa, passaddhi, and many other cetasikas. Ph: This is very interesting. Kusala has many necessary conditions. When the opportunity arises for kusala, when there is opportunity for kusala, we must not hesitate. In Japanese there is a proverb "Zen wa isoge" which is literally "goodness hurries." (The Zen means goodness, not Buddhist Zen). This is our "strike while the iron is hot." Maybe this has something to do with samvega, that sense of spiritual urgency, or with virya, energy. As always I am uncertain about sati, because in some of your writing it is described as a very, very rare thing and elsewhere we read that it accompanies all kusala cittas. (If I'm not mistaken.) There are different levels of sati. I am not worried about figuring this out because the understanding will arise or not arise do to conditions. Nina: More understanding bolsters confidence in kusala. You read and study, this is mental development, a condition for confidence in kusala to grow. Ph: Maybe there is a stage where a beginner who has graduated from the grossest excesses of spiritual materialsm (such as the fantasy decribed below)) begins to go through a lot of doubt or lack of confidence about kusala. When we are beginning to understand how subtle lobha and self-view are, and how much more akusala there is than kusala, we hesitate to be sure of kusala. I read this in ADL, p.141: "When panna has not been developed to the degree of 'insight-wisdom' there is still a concept of self who cultivates wholesomeness and abstains from ill deeds. When there is the concept of self, defilements cannot be eradicated." I am always aware that a lot of what I am doing and thinking and my discussions related to Dhamma now is motivated by a kind of self-preservation, a desire to have life explained in a way that makes sense and life pleasant and full of deep meaning. And a lot more is motivated by self-image. There is this desire to be a wise man, to be the kind of person that people turn to for advice the way I turn to you and other members of the group. I see myself with a grey beard and a cool Thai shirt, with a generous smile dispensing wisdom that gives confidence to others. But at least I'm aware of this fantasy. Everything is still to intelletual for me. Will I soon see a more direct approach to daily experience arising? I read K Sujin on the "duty of the beginner" in your Perfections. (Chapter on Renunciation) : "The beginner begins to develop right awareness of the object which appears, that is the duty of the beginner." "Duty" is a bit of a dangerous word, because it suggests something we do because we are told to, or intentionally because we think we should and surely this "beginning to develop right awareness of the object" can only arise due to conditions coming together. In any case, I'm curious to see if and when more awareness of the object will begin to be developed in this lifetime. This is something I can't decide to do. It will arise, or it won't. (much snipping) Nina: It (The Expositor) stresses that advice has been given that we should have strenuousness and earnestness in pa.tivedha, realization of the truth, since this is very difficult: ³as difficult for the mind as stringing pearls in the dark by a lightning-flash, because of its extremely short duration.² Ph: What a great image. It reminds me of that blind (?) sea turtle finding its way by chance through a hoop floating in the ocean to describe the rarity of our finding the opportunity to study Dhamma. (?) The pearls in the lightning flash is a good reminder not to press hard for results, because it will take countless lives to develop the wisdom that eradicates the defilements. Nina: Knowing about the possibilities for kusala, such as the ten bases for wholesome deeds (A. Sujin's book) are most helpful. Ph: Thank you for reminding me about this book. As you may remember, I began reading it but got caught up in other things. Reading your post - and I will reread it more thoroughly - encourages me about the possibility of developing kusala, just as it warns me about the dangers of having high expectations in this department in the short run. Metta, Phil p.s thank you also Eric for your encouraging reply. 35815 From: buddhatrue Date: Sat Aug 28, 2004 4:03pm Subject: Re: Cooran 13-15 August, 2004 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Ken - > > In a message dated 8/27/04 9:08:26 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > kenhowardau@y... writes: > > > > > Hi Howard, > > > > You respond to messages very quickly whereas I fall behind. This > > was an old one: > > >----------------- > > >KH [to Eric]: >>There is no point > > >in concentrating on either the bodily activities or the thoughts > > >that arise > > >>in the course of the day. Friend Ken H., There is a very good point to concentrating on bodily activities and thoughts during the course of the day. As the Buddha taught: "Monks, whoever develops & pursues mindfulness immersed in the body encompasses whatever skillful qualities are on the side of clear knowing. Just as whoever pervades the great ocean with his awareness encompasses whatever rivulets flow down into the ocean, in the same way, whoever develops & pursues mindfulness immersed in the body encompasses whatever skillful qualities are on the side of clear knowing…." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/majjhima/mn119.html Metta, James 35816 From: htootintnaing Date: Sat Aug 28, 2004 4:28pm Subject: Theory Behind The Buddha's Smile Dear Dhamma Friends, It is always wonderful to study Buddha Abhidhamma. As you will know there are three subsets of The Buddha teachings called vinaya, sutta, and abhidhamma. While vinaya are for ordained disciples, all disciples may practise them and much benefit can be obtain till they reach enlightenment. Sutta and abhidhamma on the other hand are all about Buddha teachings how the followers should understand, how they should practise and how they will become to realise. The difference between sutta and abhidhamma may be many. But basically suttas are those teachings stated in daily language while abhidhamma express dhamma in depth and in ultimate language. In the 'Files' section, Rob M has put this very valuable e-book written on Buddha Abhidhamma and head the book as ''Theory Behind The Buddha's Smile''. As soon as I see the book, I must admit that I like it and it is excellent, I must say. I write this post so as other people who have not touched the files section and Rob M e-book ''Theory Behind The Buddha's Smile to be enabled to read up and feel the essence of Dhamma. The second reason is that the writer Rob M himself asked me to read it up and give suggestions whether anything needs to be added or altered or corrected. So far, it is fine and very few error if I have to say in very strict term but the book can be well understandable and these errors are not that important in acquiring Dhamma knowledge from that book. The only thing is as Rob M wrote in simple English, I think there needs more elaboration on terminologies. Dear Rob M, as Nina requested, I would read the book piece by piece and suggest if there is something. I will collect all I find and then I will send it to you after I have finished. So far, what I find are 1. in page 4, 2nd paragraph ''During the tree months of His seventh season retreat, '' I think three months from 4th month fullmoon day to 7th month fullmoon day. Because this is the time when The Buddha went up Deva realm. First I thought the months when The Buddha stayed under tree. But the context says differently. 2. in page 4, 2nd paragraph ''Tavatisma''. I know Rob M says for ''Tavatimsa''. But this word appears three time with the same spelling. They are in the 4th line and in 7th line. 3. regarding calculation of Deva years and human years, I am not sure whether Tavatimsa one day is equivalent to human 100 years. But Venerable Anuruddha's Abhidhammatthasangaha says that Catumaharaja's lifespan is 500 deva years equivalent to human 9 million years. Tavatimsa's lifespan is four times that. So 36 millions human years or 2000 deva years. Human 50 years is deva one day. So I think Tavatimsa one day will be 200 years. But I am not sure. Expressing calculated deva minutes is not necessary, I think. 4. Puggalapannati in the list. I think this is 'Puggalapannatti' 5. in page 9 it is stated that immaterial mental states take concept. All rupavacara cittas take pannatta as their object. So all rupavacara cittas take concept. But not all arupavacara citta take concept. There are 6 arupavacara cittas that take paramattha dhamma as their objects. They are the 2nd arupajhana cittas and the 4th arupajhana cittas. As there are three cittas, the total is six cittas. The 2nd or 3 cittas ( arupakusala, arupavipaka, arupakiriya ) of vinnanancayatana jhana take the 1st arupajhana citta as their object. Citta is paramattha dhamma. By the same token, the 4th arupajhana citta that is n'evasanna- nasannayatana jhana take the 3rd arupajhana citta as its object. Citta is paramattha dhamma. Apart from these 6 cittas, all other jhana cittas take concept as their object. This is the area where I notice. As long as the meditator is in absorptive jhana, this automatically means as long as the meditator takes concept as object, he will not be able to discern anicca, dukkha, anatta on dhamma. Pannatta do not have any of anicca or dukkha or anatta characters. So when in deep absorption that is when in appana samadhi, magga nana cannot arise. But at the exit or when emerge from the jhana and discern what his jhana is and what happen there after, he will be able to discern tilakkhana and magga nana may arise. May you be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 35817 From: Andrew Levin Date: Sat Aug 28, 2004 4:30pm Subject: Re: [dsg] cita and cetasikas --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > Hi AL. > Rob M and Htoo answered many of your Q. Let me see. > op 25-08-2004 14:52 schreef Andrew Levin op andrewlevin@e...:> > > And phassa is contact, right? When I see something and I feel > > "touching" in my eyes, the eye (sense base) contacting the sight > > (sense object) is that phassa? > N:You cannot feel phassa, only tangible object can be experienced through > bodysense which is all over the body, even in the eye when you feel > throbbing. > AL: Do we have to recognize phassa in > > every sense base as a cetasika, as well as the other cetasikas, or as > > many cetasikas or (as possible or as they present themselves)? I > > guess it seems natural that we should. > N: No we do not. When awareness and paññaa develop the dhamma that appears > to the sati can be known, but it is inpredictable which ones will be known. > Cetasikas are very subtle, hard to know. No rules and we should not have any > expectations. First the theoretical knowledge, pariyatti has to be correct. So what level of knowledge of cittas and cetasikas should I understand to be necessary for contemplation of consciousness? You said in another post we need to know which cittas are cause and result. Can you explain why this is, and what further knowledge is necessary? I will assume knowledge of cetasikas is beneficial but unnecessary for contemplation of consciousness. I will also assume knowledge of every citta that we are able to be aware or mindful of is desirable for contemplation of consciousness. > AL What is the citta that can experience nibbana before the supramundane > > planes are acheived? Is it lokutarra citta? > N: In the process during which enlightenment is experienced there arises > before the magga-citta which is the first lokuttaracitta, a citta that is > still lokiya, called change of lineage, gotrabhu. This is not lokuttara but > evenso it experiences nibbana. It does not eradicate defilements. No, I am yet talking about a citta that experiences nibbana prior to a stage of enlightenment. To clarify, let me quote Bhante G.'s "Eight Mindful Steps to Happiness." > [simile of turtle telling fish what land is like, and fish not understanding what 'walked' means and deciding to keep in water.] Just as the fish could never conceive the idea of land, a person who suffers from greed, hatred, and delusion cannot make sense of nibbana. To understand, you must transcend all negative states of mind and experience enlightenment for yourself Until you do so, the nearest you can come to experiencing the happiness of enlightenment is the bliss you sometimes acheive when you have momentarily let go of your burden, when the mind is just "mind" with nothing else in it. [Simile of a well with no rope to pull up the water] Similarly, when your mind is temporarily free of greed, hatred, and delusion, you can perceive the peace of nibbana, but you don't necessarily have the tools to reach it. [Simile with loving-friendliness as the rope to hoist up the bucket, etc] It seems almost trivial to ask what citta this is because it's so rare and seemingly inconsequential, but it is a worthwhile phenomenon to note, that nibbana can be experienced before stages of enlightenment. > AL: Going back to what I know and tying this in with Mindfulness of > > feelings, is it possible to root out the lobha or moha (attachment or > > aversion) in a citta accompanied by a pleasant or painful feeling at a > > given sense door? > N: Only the lokuttara maggacitta of the arahat arising in a minddoor process > can eradicate lobha. But this is a typo: moha. You mean aversion, and this > is eradicated by the non-returner. > Nina. I'm going to let this point go because I can't find the sutta I was thinking of in the Majjhima Nikaya, but it was something along the lines of: "That liberation can be attained by subduing the underlying tendency towards greed in the plesant feeling, the underlying tendency towards aversion in the unplesant feeling, and the underlying tendency towards [delusion|ignorance] in the neutral feeling, this is possible. That liberation can be attained [without reducing underlying tendencies], this is impossible." So I wonder if we are able to reduce greed, hatred, and delusion through mindfulness of feelings. 35818 From: Date: Sat Aug 28, 2004 4:47pm Subject: Vism.XIV 97 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) Ch. XIV 97. (39) [The resultant] 'mind-element' has the characteristic of cognizing [respectively] visible data, etc., immediately next to (34)-(38) eye consciousness, and so on. Its function is to receive visible data, and so on. It is manifested as the state [of receiving] corresponding to that [last-mentioned function].37 Its proximate cause is the departure of eye-consciousness, and so on. (40)-(41) Also the twofold resultant 'mind-consciousness-element without root cause' with the function of investigating, etc., has as its characteristic the cognizing of the six kinds of objects. Its function is that of investigating, and so on. It is manifested as the state [of investigating] corresponding to that [last-mentioned function]. Its proximate cause is the heart-basis. ------------------- note 37. The meaning of the expression 'tathaabhaava-paccupa.t.thaana' appears more clearly where it is used again at par.108. In this definition (saadhana) the function (kicca-rasa) in fact describes the verb action (kicca) while the manifestation (paccupat.t.haana) describes the relevant nounal state (bhaava). So 'tathaabhaava' means that what has just been taken as a function (e.g. 'receiving') is to be taken also as a state ('reception'). 35819 From: nori Date: Sat Aug 28, 2004 5:25pm Subject: Re: [dsg] What is real (reply to Sarah, Howard, MattR) hi mattR, > Do you not believe in the concepts we put to you because nobody gives any explanation for their convictions or because you find the ideas are not credible, or is it both? It's not that I don't believe the ideas (you and others) put forth, nor do I find the ideas not-credible. I refute statements and ask questions, but I am only trying to understand these ideas which you and others bring up and discuss frequently on this site. > N> You believe the only reality is the rupas you experience; but here I am > ... writing. ... And you don't experience a single rupa of me doing so. > ======================= > > Why did the Buddha say *be an island unto yourself *? Because there is > nothing else but what is arising and falling away right now at the sense > doors. I only exist when you think about me and then it's not me, it's just > the reality of thinking This is true from the 'subjective' point of view; and this point I agree is important to understand. However whether it rules out the existence of an 'objective' reality is questionable and I think speculation. Anyway, as someone has mentioned before, I don't think that point is very important and probably lies outside what is needed to be known for now to continue my practice. > I don't think you can appreciate that cittas arise and fall away, one at a > time and one after the other (to create this idea of a world and a self) > until you give some credence to it. Not blind faith but simply observing it > this way to see if it has some truth to it. I think I have always given it credence. I will continue to observe, be mindful and attentive "this way to see if it has some truth to it"; my view is not fixed. --- Anyway thanks for putting up with my questions and appreciate your replies. peace and metta, nori 35820 From: kenhowardau Date: Sat Aug 28, 2004 5:30pm Subject: [dsg] Re: A thought is not a dhamma/ was Cooran 13-15 Hi Matt, Thanks for your reply. You wrote: ------------------- > My understanding is that citta and its accompanying cetasikas experience a reality. That concept (thought) is made up of many cittas. And that citta is said to experience a concept because the reality of each citta that makes up the concept is experienced. > ------------------- I can almost grasp that, but not quite. For the time being, I'll stick with my current understanding: When there is pannatti, the presently arisen citta (together with its cetasikas) is creating a concept and is experiencing its own creation. There seems to be an object of experience, but in the ultimate sense that object is illusory. If you think that is seriously wrong, please try again. :-) Kind regards,, Ken H 35821 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Aug 28, 2004 5:51pm Subject: Hello from Bangkok Dear All A brief note from Bangkok. Yesterday Sarah and I attended discussions with A. Sujin at the Foundation. Present were Sukin, Betty, Ivan and Ell, and assorted others. We had a fruitful discussion, morning and afternoon, with a pleasant lunch in between at K. Duangduen's house. Today is a rest-day for us at the hotel, with a very early start tomorrow for an 8:00 am flight back to Hong Kong. We have of course been following the discussion on the list, and have enjoyed having good messages to read over breakfast and by the pool. Talking of which, breakfast by the river calls. Will post again later. Jon 35822 From: Andrew Levin Date: Sat Aug 28, 2004 6:21pm Subject: cita and cetasikas (ch 4) Studying chapter four, vedana, in the cetasikas book by Nina. In the beginning, Nina says that due to the grossness of the impact, body-sense can only experience pleasant or painful feeling, not upekkha. She then says that due to the gentleness of the contact at the other sense doors, only upekkha can be experienced. But she later goes on to say that 'There can be pleasant feeling when one likes a pleasant visible object, a beautiful sound, a fragrant odour, a delicious taste, a soft touch or an agreeable thought.' To me, these two statements seem, at least on the surface, mutually exclusive. The only way I can seem to reconcile them is that we can have only indifferent feeling at the different sense doors but have pleasant mental feeling, such as somanassa, follow. Even then it does not seem right. Input from the senses apart from kaya-vinnana as would produce a neutral feeling on contact, but how then a pleasant or painful mental feeling can arise from that same contact? It does not seem to make sense. In other words, it seems a direct contradiction, saying that only neutral feelings can arise at the senses apart from body-sense, but also that pleasant and painful feelings can arise. It would be good if someone could clarify this matter for me. Next, my understanding of of somanassa is this: Somanassa which accompanies lobha-mula-citta is akusala. In other words, this happy feeling rooted in attachment is unwholesome. Thus we should try to recognize the akusala cita as to come closer to ending akusala cittas, even if it means sacrificing some small happiness. Please correct me if this understanding is wrong. I do not understand the statement that somanassa accompanies the citta in the first four stages of jhana, but not the fifth stage of jhana. As I understand it, we have the first four jhanas, and then the last four which are of another plane, the immaterial jhanas which would include jhanas five through eight, thus making five not the highest, but eight. My understanding here may be rather poor as I have not given particular attention to the jhanas, but more to the four foundations of mindfulness. Nonetheless, a clarification here would be good. Next, I understand that domanassa, unhappy feeling, can arise only with akusala-born cittas, and can only come with citta rooted in aversion. It is then said that wise attention to the unpleasant object can result in kusala citta rather than akusala. This is panna, penetrating the true natures of the object, identifying the three dharma seals in it, correct? What, precisely, is the conditioning factor for dosa which arises through clinging to sense pleasures and not gaining pleasant contacts? It would seem to me this dosa would be more likely to arise from unfulfilled craving, not clinging, unless we are speaking of doha arising as the object which is clung to passes away. It is said that arupa jhana and rupa jhana can be cultivated by those who practise shamatha meditation and have the right conditions. What are some of these conditions. From what I gather, the mere presence of the counterpart sign may be enough to enter the absorptions in some cases, but perhaps not, as Ayya Khema suggests we need some level of contentment (santutthi) or loving-kindness (metta) to proceed. Could these be some of the conditions meant to lead to jhana in the passage? It is said, "Indifferent feeling accompanies vipakacittas such as seeing or hearing." Forgive me, my understanding is still weak at this point. Are cittas of the sense doors such as seeing and hearing, always vipakacitta, the result of karma? I do not understand. At this point I'm going to stop asking questions and taking notes as I'm not sure my method of trying to understand this material is a workable one. I will wait to get feedback on whether it seems I'm just going through the material, copying down notes, and asking questions, or whether it looks like I'm getting a viable understanding that can be applied to everyday life. Thank you in advance for your help. -Andrew Levin 35823 From: Date: Sat Aug 28, 2004 4:02pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Cooran 13-15 August, 2004 Hi, James and Ken - In a message dated 8/28/04 7:04:21 PM Eastern Daylight Time, buddhatrue@y... writes: > Friend Ken H., > > There is a very good point to concentrating on bodily activities and > thoughts during the course of the day. As the Buddha taught: > > "Monks, whoever develops &pursues mindfulness immersed in the body > encompasses whatever skillful qualities are on the side of clear > knowing. Just as whoever pervades the great ocean with his awareness > encompasses whatever rivulets flow down into the ocean, in the same > way, whoever develops &pursues mindfulness immersed in the body > encompasses whatever skillful qualities are on the side of clear > knowing…." > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/majjhima/mn119.html > > Metta, James > ====================== James, I think you are truly psychic. I was just reading selected suttas on this very same topic, but from the anguttara nikaya - specifically A.N, I, xxi (Mindfulness Directed to the Body). Ken you might want to read these. I found them in Numerical Discourses of the Buddha, translated & edited by Nyanaponika Thera and Bhikkhu Bodhi. BTW, Ken, two other suttas included there from the book of two's which present right effort as a very conventional matter and involving exercise of powereful volition are A.N. II, i, 5 (Unremitting Effort) and A.N. II, ii, 9. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 35824 From: kenhowardau Date: Sat Aug 28, 2004 9:48pm Subject: Re: Cooran 13-15 August, 2004 Hi James I was saying there was no point in concentrating on bodily activities or on thoughts that arise in the course of the day. You wrote: ------------ > There is a very good point to concentrating on bodily activities and > thoughts during the course of the day. As the Buddha taught: > > "Monks, whoever develops & pursues mindfulness immersed in the body > encompasses whatever skillful qualities are on the side of clear > knowing. Just as whoever pervades the great ocean with his awareness > encompasses whatever rivulets flow down into the ocean, in the same > way, whoever develops & pursues mindfulness immersed in the body > encompasses whatever skillful qualities are on the side of clear > knowing…." > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/majjhima/mn119.html > Thanks James. According to the passage you have quoted, mindfulness of the body is practised by one who "encompasses whatever skilful qualities are on the side of clear knowing." I am not such a one, unfortunately. I encompass a lot of ignorance, attachment and aversion. To my credit, I have no intention of feigning greatness, and I am certainly not going to make a mockery of the way great people behave. That is to say, I refuse spend my days ritualistically concentrating on concepts - as in, "I am putting one foot in front of the other: I am walking to the kitchen: I am picking up the kettle." That is probably a trivialisation of what you meant by "concentrating on bodily activities and thoughts during the course of the day,"in which case I apologise. Regrettably, however, some influential people do portray the profound, incomparable, Four Foundations of Mindfulness in precisely that trivialising manner. Kind regards, Ken H 35825 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Aug 28, 2004 10:03pm Subject: Thoughts as object of thinking (was, Cooran etc) Hi, Howard Thanks for these detailed thoughts on this difficult (and controversial!) subject. Reading ahead, I can see that the discussion has already moved on a good deal, both with your other posts to me and more especially in your exchanges with KenH, so if you don't mind I'll pick up the thread later rather than give a detailed response to this post of yours. Just one comment. As far an any 'alleged referent' is concerned, there can of course only ever be an *idea* of such, and this idea is itself a concept. I say this because I think you may misunderstand (or you may until recently have misunderstood) the position of some of us on this aspect. In terms of paramattha dhammas, while such an idea is the indeed *object* of a moment of consciousness (that moment being part of conventional 'thinking'), the idea is not itself a paramattha dhamma, since it is purely mind-constructed. This distinguishes concept as object of consciousness from other objects of consciousness, all of which are paramattha dhammas. An object of consciousness that is a paramattha dhamma is not mind-constructed; it arises dependent on conditions and is experienced by consciousness. This in any event is my understanding of things as explained (or assumed) in the texts. Jon --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Jon - ... > Howard: > Jon, that is why I wrote *alleged* referent. What is *intended* to > be the referent is some "thing" of some sort. The concept of "hardness" > has as its intended referent hardness, which is a paramattha dhamma. In > that case, the thought is merely a thought, and its intended referent is > something other than the thought, and is, in fact, a paramattha dhamma. > The concept of "tree" has as its intended referent something only > *thought* to exist. In that case, the intended referent is an imagined > but nonexistent "external object," whereas the actual referent, > unrealized as such, is an entire sequence of related thoughts and rupas. ... > If everone on the list were to use 'concept' to just mean "thought", > I'd have no need to speak of more than one sense of concept, Jon. But > some people will say that "The tree in my garden is just a concept". > They are not referring to a thought, but to an intended but not existent > refernt of that thought! I would say, instead, that we have a "tree in > my garden thought," but, in reality, there is no singular referent for > that concept/percept. There is, instead, a complex pattern of > interrlated experiences to which we attach the thought and name of "tree > in my garden," and which we then reify. 35826 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Aug 28, 2004 10:13pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Nose vs. Abdomen Hi, Greg Thanks for the interesting question. Sorry to be coming in so late on your post. The development of samatha of all kinds (including anapanasati) was praised and encouraged by the Buddha. However, we do not find in the suttas details of the development of each and every of the 38 or 40 subjects. As regards those subjects that are not treated in detail, I assume the reason for this is because the knowledge of these skills was prevalent before the Buddha's enlightenment. These would include anapanasati as well as the kasinas. There is of course a certain amount of detail in the suttas on those subjects that were not previously known. These include the recollections on the Buddha, Dhamma and Sangha, repulsiveness of the body, etc. As regards mindfulness of breathing in particular, to my knowledge, the Buddha did not give detailed instruction on its development, other than in the context of its being a base for attaining enlightenment, as in the Satipatthana Sutta and the Anapanasati Sutta. Here, however, he is referencing the monk who is already well established in the development of samatha with breath as object, so it would not be of much guidance for the 'beginning' practitioner. The Visuddhi-Magga is indeed the recognised authority on samadhi and its development, but here again a certain level of familiarity and skill is assumed. It is not at 'how to' for the mere beginner, as I read it. To my understanding, it is not necessary for the development of samatha with breath as object for a particular location (nostrils, abdomen) to be chosen. Samatha with breath as object involves contemplating breath in the right way, and it may occur whenever breath is object of consciousness. This could for example be when one is sneezing or yawning! The actual place at which the breath 'occurs' is immaterial, at least until one gets to the higher levels. I hope this helps. Anapanasati is not an easy subject. Jon --- gleblanc108 wrote: > It is my understanding that the nostrils are the place of > concentration in Mindfulness of Breathing given by the Buddha > (Visuddhimagga), but that the abdomen is also often used (Burma > revival movement). > > What are the differences between the two, is there an advantage in > using one over he other. > > Thank you > > Greg 35827 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Aug 28, 2004 10:18pm Subject: Thinking and thoughts -- status of Hi again, Howard Just a brief comment. As I understand the orthodox Abhidhamma position, the consciousness that thinks (i.e., has a thought as object) is a paramattha dhamma, while the thought that is the object is not a paramattha dhamma, it is a concept. Jon --- upasaka@a... wrote: ... > Now, the status of various concepts as thoughts of differing sorts > is a separate matter. Our actual thoughts are paramattha dhammas, > specifically mind-door dhammas. But others, such as a so called "thought > of a tree" are illusions: What there actually is is a whole sequence of > elementary thoughts and other paramatthic experiences which the mind, > through a culminating thought, takes to be a unity that is the intended > referent of that culminating thought. That culminating thought is the > thought "tree concept," as if "tree concept" were a single mental event. > But it is not - it is a complex sequence, and thus that culminating > thought, while itself possibly a single mental event, is delusive. > ========================= > With metta, > Howard 35828 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Aug 28, 2004 10:23pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Anapanasati Sutta Hi, Herman Hope you're having a great time on the slopes. You may not be reading the list right now, so thought I would leave your posts until I've caught up with my replies to others (and if you are checking in, wouldn't want to spoil your holiday!!). Take care of those fast-moving trees and other normally immobile objects. Jon --- Herman Hofman wrote: > Hi Jon, > > Thanks for your considered reply. > > ====================== > ... > > I think with the more frequent arising of an understanding of reality > in > > line with the Teachings, there will be a natural tendency towards a > loss > > of appetite for the world, which is not to be confused with an > > increasing aversion to the world. 35829 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Aug 28, 2004 10:26pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Signs of progress? (was, Anapanasati Sutta) Hi, Rob Ep --- Robert Epstein wrote: ... > you mean my extreme current achievement of mellowness is just due to > aging and not to an advanced spiritual attainment?? > > Rob Ep. Not a chance. These things apply to everyone else, but not of course to you or me ;-)) Jon 35830 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Aug 28, 2004 10:41pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Anapanasati/ Jon I Hi, Eric --- ericlonline wrote: > Hey Jon, > > Jon> The commentaries are a compilation of this wisdom, and > have the endorsement of the Great Councils. They are regarded as the > generally accepted views of the arahants of the time, rather than the > views of the individual compilers. > > So the commentaries go. Dont you think > this is a bit circular though. > #1 >The word in the book is true. > #2 > How do you know this is true? > #1 > It says so in the book. Nice try, Eric, but that's not what I'm saying at all ;-)) What I'm saying is: #1. The word of the Master cannot be fully understood (intellectually) from just a reading of the Tipitaka itself (at least, for someone of my limited level of understanding). #2. The commentaries are the accepted gloss on the word of the Master, having been rehearsed at various Great Councils (as far as I'm aware this is not disputed). #3. Accordingly, I'll use the commentaries as my point of reference for reading the Tipitaka, in preference to anyone else's gloss on the word of the Master. As a matter of interest, what is the basis on which you decide who to listen to? ... > J> ....since I don't think such speculation helps at all. > > Then why speculate one way or another? Agreed, such speculation [about possible attainment in this lifetime] is not necessary. It is however necessary to know where we are at present in terms of the development of insight, since there's no point in trying to do what the big boys can do if we haven't got the basics down yet. ... > The 'practice' is comprised of > many practices. There are many inroads > in which to take a stand and try and irradicate > the defilemsnts or cultivate the wholesome. > This can be done with or without mindfulness > of breathing. Yes, the practice is nothing other than the development of insight into the true nature of a presently arising dhamma. The necessary conditions for the development of this insight are set out time and again in the suttas. Mindfulness of breathing is not of course one of the necessary conditions, but nonetheless if it is something one is skilled in it can be the basis for insight. > But since the breath is always > there, why not put it to good use? But Eric, surely it can equally be said that the body is always there, or that visible-object is always there, or that feelings are always there, or that consciousness is always there? And these dhammas (in the form of the five aggregates, the sense bases (ayatanas), the elements (dhatus), etc) are mentioned in the suttas much more frequently than the breath. What's so special about breath, as you understand it? Also, where do you find reference in the suttas to 'putting the breath to good use?' This makes it sound like a handy technique of some kind. If understanding (insight ) is the key, how does breath help? ... > That is one way to look at it. But like > I said before, you only fail to walk when > you quit trying. In this way, there is no > 'wrong' practice. Just those who try and those > who don't. Plus, it seems we become 'wiser' from > our 'failures' more than from our 'successes'. I > mean the Buddha was one wise teacher because > he performed so many 'wrong' practices before > his enlightenment. He knew from first hand > experience what worked and what did not. He > did not refer to second hand knowledge from some > manual, etc. The assumption that practising wrongly doesn't matter because you'll learn from it anyway doesn't really stand close scrutiny. Wrong practice conduces only to more wrong view, as far as I understand things. Wrong view is so crafty, it makes it appear as though progress is being made. No practice is better than wrong practice. Jon 35831 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Aug 28, 2004 10:51pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Annatta teaching Hi, Eric --- ericlonline wrote: > Hey Jon, > > Even though we go back and forth, I want > you to know that I do enjoy your banter and > do reply with a smile on my face! That goes for me too, Eric! And thanks for mentioning it. ... > Must be hard to get thru life with all those > manuals in your hands at all times Jon. You > use a backback to carry them around in or a > laptop with .pdf versions? ;-) Dependence on manuals would be a burden, but having them as a resource isn't. (Of course, people who shoot from the hip tend to find references to the manuals tedious, for obvious reasons!) > Learn to trust > yourself Jon. You can't be all bad! No one > can be that unlucky! :-) Good advice, Eric, but not necessary in my case, I can assure you. I consider myself among the luckiest around ;-). > Jon> In any event, I don't think there's anything in the Anapanasati > Sutta about 'staking one's mindfulness to the breath'. > > That is because you dont practice it. > The whole first tetrad uses the breath as > object. For piti to arise there has to > be a fair amount of ekaggata. This is staking > your awareness at your breath. The sutta describes a monk who is already skilled in the development of anapanasati, so naturally it deals extensively with breath as the object of the consciousness. Such a monk is just being mindful of the present object, which in his case happens to be the breath. There is no selection of the object of mindfulness. In any event, you'll find that the discussion in the tetrads that follow is not limited to breath as object alone, and moves on to the development of insight in terms of the four foundations of mindfulness. Jon 35832 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Aug 28, 2004 10:56pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Anapanasati/ Jon I Hi, Howard It all depends how you read the reference to developing the four frames of reference as described in the Satipatthana Sutta. If you see it as something to be 'done', then you no doubt incline to the view that all it needs is sufficient motivation and determination. If on the other hand you see it as a something that can only occur by natural accretion over a long period of time (the adze handle analogy), then you will not be expecting any great strides within a single lifetime (of course, if you find this prospect discouraging, you will probably belong to the first group ;-)). Jon --- upasaka@a... wrote: ... > Admittedly, enlightenment in a single lifetime is quite a goal. Of > course, whenever full enlightenment occurs, it occurs during some > lifetime! ;-) In any case, Jon, one possible basis for this business, at > least for the *possibility* of it, is the conclusion of the Satipatthana > Sutta, which reads as follows: > _____________________________ > "Now, if anyone would develop these four frames of reference in this way > for seven years, one of two fruits can be expected for him: either > gnosis right here & now, or -- if there be any remnant of > clinging-sustenance -- non-return. ... 35833 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Aug 28, 2004 11:14pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Anapanasati/ Jon II Hi, Eric As I said earlier, I'm enjoying the banter, but I think it's good every so often to get back to the central issues between us which as I see it are: A. Anapanasati (as an aspect of samatha) B. The Anapanasati Sutta C. The development of insight generally and especially in daily life. A. Anapanasati as samatha ================= I see from your comments that it's time for me to mention (yet again!) that the development of samatha in all its forms, including anapanasati, is a high degree of kusala, praised by the Buddha, and of great support in the development of insight, and to be developed by all. Eric, I hope this is clear ;-)). Is there anything else you would like to see me add here? (jk) So while you and I no doubt have some differences on anapanasati, those differences are not simply that you are 'for' and I'm 'against'. I am very much 'for' also. Our main difference lies I think in that while you seem to equate the general practice of anapanasati with what is in the Anapanasati Sutta, I see the general practice of anapanasati as something a little different to that, and I see the Anapanasati Sutta as dealing with a very particular instance of anapanasati, namely, how an advanced anapanasati practitioner can also develop insight based on his anapanasati. Let me explain. B. Anapanasati Sutta ============= The passage most quoted and relied on from this sutta is the passage that says: "Mindfulness of in-&-out breathing, when developed & pursued, is of great fruit, of great benefit. Mindfulness of in-&-out breathing, when developed & pursued, brings the four frames of reference to their culmination. .." What does this passage actually say? First of all, note what it does *not* say. It does not say: <> In other words, the focus of the sutta is not on [ways of] developing the four frames of reference generally. In my view, the focus of this sutta is on anapanasati, as already known, practised and developed, and how it *can* in certain circumstances be developed in a very particular way so as to support the development of insight and the attainment of enlightenment (in tandem). Consider the following 3 paragraphs from the sutta ATI version): <<<<< [14] "In this community of monks there are monks who remain devoted to mindfulness of in-&-out breathing. [15] "Mindfulness of in-&-out breathing, when developed & pursued, is of great fruit, of great benefit. Mindfulness of in-&-out breathing, when developed & pursued, brings the four frames of reference to their culmination. ... [16] "Now how is mindfulness of in-&-out breathing developed & pursued so as to bring the four frames of reference to their culmination?" >>>>> To my reading this says: <> So what follows is not hw mindfulness of breathing per se is developed, but how [already developed] mindfulness of breathing can be *further* developed to a particular end or purpose that would not otherwise ensue from its development. Eric, you may not agree with this reading, but I think you'll agree there's nothing 'anti' about it ;-)) C. The development of insight (including in daily life). ================================= I'm sure we are agreed that it is the development of insight (i.e., insight into the true nature of presently arising reality) that leads to enlightenment. As I see it, this is the focus of the Anapanasati Sutta, as well as the Satipatthana Sutta and many other suttas, in fact the whole of the teachings. It's clear from the Satipatthana Sutta that mindfulness and understanding (sati sampajjanna) is the way of development of such insight, and that this can be developed at any time or place. This means that for monks whose daily life includes the practice of anapanasati, it will be while breath is the object of consciousness; for the likes of you and me it will be what you describe as 'PC sati', namely, with dhammas appearing through any of the sense-doors, or through the mind-door, as object. Actually the basic skill (note: not *technique*) is the same, but the circumstances are different according to the natural inclination and assumed lifestyle of the person concerned (i.e., multiple sense-door objects at a PC keyboard, vs. breath as sole object at the shade of a tree). So in discussing both aspects there's no attempt on my part to change the subject ;-)) BTW, the reference in the sutta to the shade of a tree or an empty building represents a particular lifestyle. It simply isn't possible for someone to adopt the trappings of that lifestyle for the purpose of bringing themselves within the ambit of the sutta. The transition from urban, PC lifestyle to shade of tree or empty hut involves more than just a change in physical surroundings ;-)). Jon PS You urge me to practice what is in the sutta, but at the same time you also say that the meaning of the sutta can only be know by taking up the practice. Apart from the circularity involved here ;-)), this to me means that the practice as embarked upon is bound to be wrong, and this will lead to more and more wrong practice. I don't think the Buddha ever urged his listeners to start practising regardless of whether or not they understood. PPS I was going to intersperse some comments, as I know you expect a direct answer to each and every question asked ;-)). But as this post is quite long enough as it is, I'll send it off and respond to your questions separately. --- ericlonline wrote: > > Hey Jon, ... > Back to this again! Look, it is the origin > of the story. Like saying who was there to > set the scene in plays. The same instructions > were given to Ananda alone. What does that mean??? > Was Ananda not at the other occasion? I thought > he had a great memory? Or was he a slow learner? > Needed to be told twice. Where is this leading > us? Everywhere but where the sutta instructs. > Jon, you really do wear your hindrances on > your sleeve. PRACTICE WHAT IS IN THE SUTTA, > then all these uber-man conspiracy theories > and questions will fall away like ashes in > the wind. Your whole line of reasoning in > regards to this sutta is to keep you from > practicing it. Which is fine. You have aversion > to sitting meditation, no big deal, to each > his own! But I ask, how are you practicing > Right Concentration i.e. jhana? If you are not > developing it then you are practicing a 7 fold > path and not the path of the Buddha. Which is > fine too. I dont care what you do or dont do. ... > What type of person is that? An orange clad > person? So I will wear orange when I meditate. > Then all is good with the commentaries and the sutta > but maybe the stars are not in line. Oh well, > can't pracitice meditation when the stars are not > in line. No good can result from that. Jon, > are you a slacker type? Do you take the easiest > way that requires little to no effort between two > alternatives? I am serious! I know meditation is hard, > I know it requires effort and tolerance but you > are doing everything in your power not to do it! > Seems if you took half the energy you are expending > to convince yourself not do it and do it, you > would be at the 4th jhana in no time! lol ... > You forgot about an empty hut? Clear out a > spare room and do the best you can Jon. I actually > have a ficus tree in my house I sit under! No > kidding! A friend was moving and had to give it > away. It is huge! So, looks like 'I' have the perfect > environment! I have the shade of a tree in an > empty hut! lol ... > Because this thread is about Anapanasati Jon and not > about PCsati. I actually try and keep some of my > awareness at my breath as I work, type, excercise, etc. > It is a good present moment practice you can do just > about anytime. Keeps you relaxed and focused on the > tasks at hand. Lowers the blood pressure, etc., etc. ... > I never said at the exclusion of other practices Jon! > This thread has been about Anapanasati. Now you wish > to theorize about other practices too! For what? To analyze > yourself a way not to do them also? 35834 From: buddhatrue Date: Sun Aug 29, 2004 0:50am Subject: Re: Cooran 13-15 August, 2004 Friend Ken H., Ken: According to the passage you have quoted, mindfulness of the body is practised by one who "encompasses whatever skilful qualities are on the side of clear knowing." I am not such a one, unfortunately. James: That is not what the passage states. You are changing the meaning of the passage I quoted. The passage states, "whoever develops & pursues mindfulness immersed in the body encompasses whatever skillful qualities are on the side of clear knowing…." So, if one develops and pursues mindfulness immersed in the body, then skillful qualities will be encompassed. It isn't the other way around. Ken: I am not such a one, unfortunately. I encompass a lot of ignorance, attachment and aversion. James: It is good that you know this. So now is the time for you to start developing and pursuing mindfulness immersed in the body. Ken: To my credit, I have no intention of feigning greatness, and I am certainly not going to make a mockery of the way great people behave. James: I would gently suggest that you be careful here. Feigned humility is also a form of conceit. Ken: That is to say, I refuse spend my days ritualistically concentrating on concepts - as in, "I am putting one foot in front of the other: I am walking to the kitchen: I am picking up the kettle." James: I am not sure where you got this type of mental dialogue, but I also don't think that a running, mental commentary of every activity is what the Buddha intended by mindfulness immersed in the body. The Buddha explains what he means, in part: "Furthermore, when walking, the monk discerns that he is walking. When standing, he discerns that he is standing. When sitting, he discerns that he is sitting. When lying down, he discerns that he is lying down. Or however his body is disposed, that is how he discerns it. And as he remains thus heedful, ardent, & resolute, any memories & resolves related to the household life are abandoned, and with their abandoning his mind gathers & settles inwardly, grows unified & centered. This is how a monk develops mindfulness immersed in the body. .." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/majjhima/mn119.html Metta, James 35835 From: rjkjp1 Date: Sun Aug 29, 2004 1:32am Subject: Re: cita and cetasikas (ch 4) Dear Andrew, I give a brief reply to your first question: In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Andrew Levin" wrote: > Studying chapter four, vedana, in the cetasikas book by Nina. > > In the beginning, Nina says that due to the grossness of the impact, > body-sense can only experience pleasant or painful feeling, not upekkha. > She then says that due to the gentleness of the contact at the other > sense doors, only upekkha can be experienced. > > But she later goes on to say that 'There can be pleasant feeling when > one likes a pleasant visible object, a beautiful sound, a fragrant > odour, a delicious taste, a soft touch or an agreeable thought.' > > To me, these two statements seem, at least on the surface, mutually > exclusive. The only way I can seem to reconcile them is that we can > have only indifferent feeling at the different sense doors but have > pleasant mental feeling, such as somanassa, follow. Even then it does > not seem right. Input from the senses apart from kaya-vinnana as > would produce a neutral feeling on contact, but how then a pleasant or > painful mental feeling can arise from that same contact? It does not > seem to make sense. In other words, it seems a direct contradiction, > saying that only neutral feelings can arise at the senses apart from > body-sense, but also that pleasant and painful feelings can arise. ++++++++ It is as you said : during the very brief moment at the sense door the feeling is neutral (or in the case of bodysense either pleasant or unpleasant. But during the javana process immediately following and the many minddoor processes that always follow a sense door process there can be reaction. Usually during the minddoor process there is clinging (which always comes with pleasant feeling) to an appealing object that appears through the eyedoor(though the actual moment of seeing the feeling is neutral). However, sometimes there can be aversion (which always comes with unpleasant feeling. For instance one sees a very beautiful woman and so the following javana processes are subtle liking with pleasant feeling in most people. But another not so beutiful woman might see this object and feel aversion because of envy and so the feeling is unpleasant. Or the texts give the example of seeing the Buddha; almost all people experience pleasant feeling after the eyedoor process. But for those belonging to other sects they had aversion. It is all so real and can be seen to be happening every moment of every day - for those who have the wisdom to see. RobertK > 35836 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sun Aug 29, 2004 2:28am Subject: Bill against religious conversion Dear group, "Controversial Sri Lanka bill against religious conversion gets court nod" http://tinyurl.com/6fqd8 Time will tell whether this is a skillful move or not, I suppose. metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- 35837 From: Sukinderpal Singh Narula Date: Sun Aug 29, 2004 2:45am Subject: Theory and Practice - Eric Re: Anapanasati/ Sukin Hi Eric and all, Eric I have just changed the name of this thread after considering your response below to Duncan in another thread. Eric :"I wholeheartedly agree with your post. But I am a both/and kind of guy not an either/or. I don't limit my investigations to just Buddhism. Krishnamurti, Ramana, Lao Tzu, etc. etc. Premodern, modern, postmodern. I am enamored with those who have found meaning in their lives." I am not sure why you admire all those other people and philosophies; I do like what some of them have said too. However when it comes to judging whether they have Right View, I don't think any of them do. This means that none of them are enlightened and therefore them "finding meaning in their lives", really means nothing as far as I am concerned. I believe that Mahasatipatthana is the only practice leading to enlightenment and this is only taught by the Buddha. I wonder if you believe the same. So if we are talking about any particular practice like `anapanasati' or `jhana', I think it is important to know if whether you are of the opinion that these can on their own lead to the realization of the N8FP or even if they support satipatthana in any special way. From my point of view, if satipatthana is the *only* right practice, then anything else is not only a distraction but will very likely condition wrong view if seen as leading to the development of sati and panna. So if I were to follow your recommendation to sit and just watch the breath, then I believe that during such times, I will *not* be following the Buddha's teachings, but someone else's. Now I respond to your post: > S: I hope you are saying this only to draw my attention to > `attachment' > and `clinging'. Surely you would not be underestimating the > importance > of Teachings would you? In my view in fact, every word uttered by the > Buddha is extremely precious, given that only one Sammabuddha arises > in many aeons. Also isn't it obvious that those who valued his words > most would be those who understood him best, i.e. the arahats, and > therefore if *we* can't appreciate then as much, we should at least > have some sense not to downplay their importance? > >E: Are there really any 'sacred' words? Sukin: No sacred words, but words of wisdom. And these will be understood as per each individual's accumulated panna. > S: Recognizing them would require that we understand what they > mean. And if understanding is correct, then panna is accumulated as > sankhara. And when panna does arise, there is a degree of detachment > and no questions such as, "Then what?". > >E: Panna will accumulate if the other 7 path > factors are also in effect, yes? It seems > you are trying to revolve yourself around > views and thought. How do you cultivate > samadhi (i.e. concentration, effort and > mindfulness)? Sukin: Yes, how do you cultivate samadhi? How do we know that samadhi will be right? Jhana? I don't think so! Jhana only knows the difference between kusala and akusala and this kind of understanding has no relationship with the understanding about anatta and conditionality. So how can jhana lead to vipassana? Do you think that a concentrated mind is better capable of penetrating realities simply by virtue of not being distracted? Don't you think that the mind (conventionally speaking) has to be trained in such a way that it understands the nature of realities, its conditioned nature, anicca, dukkha and anatta? Otherwise a concentrated mind is just a concentrated mind and knows what it has been trained to know, i.e. the object of jhana. This is why satipatthana is the only way and the understanding which leads to this is the developed intellectual understanding about just these conditioned realities. And you needn't worry about other path factors being developed, because samadhi, viriya, and other factors are being developed by virtue of sati and panna during satipatthana. It is panna or lack of, which determines whether the other 4 or 7 factors are right or wrong. > S: Until and unless we have become enlightened, in which case the > sati that has experienced the tilakkhana is so firm that there is no > more wrong sanna arising, then we need to be reminded again and > again. > Don't you think that avijja arise almost all the time for us > puthujanas? > > E: Comes and goes like everything else. Sukin: :-) Good for you, if this is your everyday experience. But in my case this is not so, and I believe the same with most other people. So don't you think we need it? > > Eric: Neither, I am more interested in the knowledge > > and vision as things actually are. > > S: Yes, but being interested in direct experience does this mean > that we should not listen any more to the teachings? > > Eric: How many times do you need to read the > instruction manual? Sukin: Perhaps this is the crucial difference! If indeed the Teachings could be reduced to a set of instructions, then all we need to remember are those instructions. And all we need to do and consequently feel that we are following the Teachings, is to follow those instructions. Perhaps this is why many are so happy to be doing formal meditation, a conventional activity, and struggle against the idea that realities including sati and panna arise and fall due to conditions beyond control and has no relationship to any rite or ritual including `sitting'. And as much as one denies this fact about conditionality and sticks to one's formal practice, that much there is going to be the illusion of result mistaking lobha for sati and wrong view for panna. On the other hand, if the Teachings are seen as descriptive, then it makes sense to carefully study them. And since realities arise and fall in an instant and sati and panna is still undeveloped, then increasingly better intellectual understanding is called for. We may know intellectually what the object of satipatthana ultimately are, however akusala tendencies are strong and it takes time to overcome these and grow in confidence that "only that which appears in the present moment can be the object of true understanding". Meanwhile the attention always drifts to "stories about realties" hence the need to continue with pariyatti. After all correct pariyatti points to the significance of the presently arisen reality. > S: Again it is `panna' which > can state anything meaningful about "knowledge and vision as things > actually are", and this panna I believe will *never* judge as > meaningless, `words descriptive of truth'. It is more likely some > other reality which will say "no" to words of wisdom. But here again > you may be trying to point me to `attachment and clinging'? > > Eric: I am not interested in statements about truth > but the truth! The truth outside of words! You > see we are caught in a matrix of words. Some of us > feel like that there is a combination of words that will > unlock some secret that is hidden or open up some door > to the real. So, we go round and round in a sea of > samsara of words. Sukin: No, pariyatti is not some magic word. It is a level of panna, a "reality" which you can call anything or not put any label at all. It has a characteristic, function and proximate cause. One of the conditions for this reality to be developed is `reading about' or `hearing' the Teachings, otherwise we would continue to be lead by our wrong views. When Sariputta heard the short phrase about `conditioned dhammas', it was not any magic, but the accumulated panna which was so great that it understood the *meaning*. For us today, the word have to be repeated over and over again and from many different angles and still it is never enough to even condition knowing by direct experience the difference between concept and reality. So we need to listen and consider more and more. > S: Not lobha or wrong view for sure, but panna will recognize the > right from wrong. And if we realize that panna is still weak and > self- deception quite likely to happen, should we not try to > determine what the Buddha has said? > > Eric: If this is still conditioned by a context of > wrong view, how will a right view arise? Sukin: :-) All I can say is that all other views seem wrong compared, and so far I have yet to come across anyone proving this general understanding as expressed by Nina, Sarah, Jon and others, wrong. And they have never been contradictory to either the Suttas or the commentaries. > S: Blind acceptance is no good, but dismissing them based on the > simple reason that they are `second hand' is not necessarily any > better. > When I read the Kalama Sutta about not blindly accepting authority, I > always remember the most notorious of them, namely "me", my own > subjective interpretation. > > Eric: So you have a commentators subjective interpretation > which you are subjectively interpretating and this > is forming the basis or your 'Right View'? Do I > understand you correctly? Sukin: What is said in the Suttas, is expanded upon by the commentators and sub- and sub-sub commentators in such a way that it has always *increased* the understanding. Whether this has been in fact the opposite, namely `increasing any "misunderstanding"', I refer not only to what I stated above, but also to a general attitude towards experiences based on the understanding of their conditioned nature. > S: Panna is the leader and when it arises during a moment of > satipatthana, then the other factors are also present and being > developed. There is no development of individual path factors without > the rest of them. Hence it is a BIG mistake to identify `right > effort' and `right concentration' for example, with any conventional > practice. If one `exerts' and `concentrates' with akusala mental > factors, then no `rights' are being developed. > > Eric: Of course, that is why the proof is in the > pudding. To be able to create wholesome states > of mind at will means you are practicing > correctly with all the other path factors > in alignment. How do you know this occurs? > When there are no hindrances to be found in > awareness. Sukin: Or this may be the illusion of result I talked about earlier. But hard to prove, so let us perhaps just drop this. However, do you agree that it is more important to consider the "causes" than be concerned about any "results"? Would not the right cause lead to the right result and the wrong to the wrong? If so, in what way is `concentration on the breath' a condition for sati and panna, starting from the beginner's level? > S: But the view that I need to concentrate on it in order to reach > liberation will. ;-) > > Eric: How do you develope concentration, > effort and sati in your practice? > How do you try and develope Right > Concentration i.e. jhana? Sukin: "I" don't. But I do appreciate the possibility and necessicty of `sati' being developed, however I think the idea of `developing concentration' as means to reach the N8FP is wrong! Have to go. Metta, Sukin. 35838 From: Date: Sat Aug 28, 2004 10:50pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Cooran 13-15 August, 2004/KenH Hi, Ken - I've reread my post to you dated 8/28/04 12:41:27 AM Eastern Daylight Time, which includes the following: > >KH: I know you hate this stock reply, but I love it; "There is no > >self who can find paramattha dhammas!" > > > ----------------------------------------- > Howard: > Gee, no kidding! Yes, I know that, Ken - no self. (And, of course, you > know that I know that - even though both you and I say "I" and "you" and > "we" > etc, etc) ========================== I'm writing to apologize for my arrogant tone and flip words throughout much of that post, and not just the part I quoted above. It was inapproprate, uncalled for, and unkind. As I read that post now, I have to wonder who in the hell that guy who wrote it thinks he is! For one thing, he sure sounds like someone who got out on the wrong side of the bed that day! I'm very sorry to have written to you that way, Ken. There is no excuse for it. Frankly, I don't see the slightest *reason* for it! I'm very sorry, and I do hope you didn't find it too upsetting. Were I to receive a post like that, I'm afraid I *would* be upset. If there is anything like a near-instant kamma vipaka, this may be it - I feel quite saddened at having written somethin g to a good person that could be hurtful. Again, I sincerely apologize, Ken. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 35839 From: Date: Sat Aug 28, 2004 11:10pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Thinking and thoughts -- status of Hi, Jon - In a message dated 8/29/04 1:20:07 AM Eastern Daylight Time, jonoabb@y... writes: > Hi again, Howard > > Just a brief comment. As I understand the orthodox Abhidhamma position, > the consciousness that thinks (i.e., has a thought as object) is a > paramattha dhamma, while the thought that is the object is not a > paramattha dhamma, it is a concept. > > Jon > ========================= That formulation is closer to the way I see matters, though the phrase "the consciousness that thinks (i.e., has a thought as object)" doesn't quite sit right with me. As I see it, there are mental operations called "thoughts" but better called "thinkings" that are nothing but fleeting events that occur, and I do not think of there being a "consciousness" as one thing that apprehends a "thought" as another thing. I just countenance an experiential event that I call a "thought" which is neither subject nor object, but is just a passing event. That event *seems* to be a "thought OF something" - that is, it seems to point to, or reference, something. Often, that apparent referencing is pure illusion. In fact, it's probably so that *always* that referencing is illusory, because even when the "something" intended to be pointed to is a paramattha dhamma, the experience of "thinking of that dhamma" is never the same as the direct experiencing of the actual dhamma, so thinking never references what it is intended to reference. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 35840 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Aug 29, 2004 4:16am Subject: Re: [dsg] Anapanasati/ Jon II Hi, Eric Some comments (and answers to questions) interspersed, following my general reply to the same post sent earlier. --- ericlonline wrote: ... > J>I think it's more like, as someone (KenH, Andrew?) said, setting > off having misread the map, and so taking oneself further away from > the intended destination. > > Oh I see, 'you can't get there from here'!? Not at all, it's never impossible to get there from here. All I'm saying is that it'll never happen by misreading the map. > J> Well, jhana is not mentioned by name, but that of course does not > mean it is not being referred to. > > That is the beauty of it. It does not > exclude anyone even the beginner! I agree that the Anapanasati Sutta does not exclude the person who has not yet attained jhana; but I believe it does exclude anyone who is not already "devoted to the development of mindfulness of in-&-out breathing". ... > Exactly why I have said it is an OK > practice for a beginner. I mean everyone > breaths. So we agree for once! :-) I agree that breath can be object of kusala consciousness for anyone. But I don't agree the Anapanasati Sutta is talking about just anyone. > J> I'm questioning whether the meaning of the second and third > tetrads is as clear as you seem to suggest it is without outside > assistance. > > I think it requires a little internal assistance > to make it crystal clear. You know unwrap the > packaging and look inside. Not just talk about > or think about unwrapping the package. Who wrapped > the package? But if we unwrap it in the wrong way > we may damage the package. But didn't the package > wrapper once insruct others to unwrap the package > under a tree when no one else was around. Yes but > those instructions were to union package unwrappers. > Best not to touch the package for fear of being > a bad package unwrapper doomed to forever never > have a package wrapped again until another master > package wrapper appears! The Buddha did not hand out wrapped packages. His whole life was devoted to laying the teaching out bare for all to see. Those who could not understand a teaching as delivered were encouraged to seek further explanation from one of the senior monks. There was no clenched fist, and no question of being told to keep quiet and just start practising(!). > J > So I'd be interested to hear what you have to say about the > following aspects ... > > Lets start with the order of the tetrads > in general. They go from Body> mind > spirit. > That is from gross > subtle > causal. > You pick the 3 levels that resonate with > your understanding and write back. What does picking 3 levels that resonate with me have to do with my question, Eric!?! OK, never mind. Just explain some of your terminology here: What do you mean by 'spirit' (as opposed to 'mind')? Your 3 levels of gross, subtle and causal are levels of what? How do I know if a level resonates with me. Is this anything to do with vibes?(jk, jk) ... > Back to this again! Look, it is the origin > of the story. Like saying who was there to > set the scene in plays. The same instructions > were given to Ananda alone. What does that mean??? > Was Ananda not at the other occasion? I thought > he had a great memory? Or was he a slow learner? > Needed to be told twice. Where is this leading > us? Everywhere but where the sutta instructs. Sorry, but you've lost me. Can I have a reference to this other sutta, please. > Jon, you really do wear your hindrances on > your sleeve. PRACTICE WHAT IS IN THE SUTTA, > then all these uber-man conspiracy theories > and questions will fall away like ashes in > the wind. Your whole line of reasoning in > regards to this sutta is to keep you from > practicing it. Which is fine. You have aversion > to sitting meditation, no big deal, to each > his own! But I ask, how are you practicing > Right Concentration i.e. jhana? If you are not > developing it then you are practicing a 7 fold > path and not the path of the Buddha. Which is > fine too. I dont care what you do or dont do. Then let me come back to a question I asked before but didn't get an answer to: Do you equate jhana with Right Concentration, and if so, would a person who rejected the Dhamma and followed another teaching, but who had developed jhana, be developing Right Concentration of the Eightfold Path, as you understand it? ... > What type of person is that? An orange clad > person? So I will wear orange when I meditate. > Then all is good with the commentaries and the sutta > but maybe the stars are not in line. Oh well, > can't pracitice meditation when the stars are not > in line. No good can result from that. Jon, > are you a slacker type? Do you take the easiest > way that requires little to no effort between two > alternatives? I am serious! I know meditation is hard, > I know it requires effort and tolerance but you > are doing everything in your power not to do it! If you can let me know the Pali term you are translating as 'meditation' here, I'll gladly give you an answer ;-)) > Seems if you took half the energy you are expending > to convince yourself not do it and do it, you > would be at the 4th jhana in no time! lol Yes, but what would I do when I got there? ;-)) > You forgot about an empty hut? Clear out a > spare room and do the best you can Jon. I actually > have a ficus tree in my house I sit under! No > kidding! A friend was moving and had to give it > away. It is huge! So, looks like 'I' have the perfect > environment! I have the shade of a tree in an > empty hut! lol Yeah, and let me guess, a wireless internet connection so you can check your emails without getting up from the cushion ;-)) Have I got it right?! > J> ... So why aren't we discussing what is bhavana > ('practice', if you like) at times like this? > > Because this thread is about Anapanasati Jon and not > about PCsati. I actually try and keep some of my > awareness at my breath as I work, type, excercise, etc. > It is a good present moment practice you can do just > about anytime. Keeps you relaxed and focused on the > tasks at hand. Lowers the blood pressure, etc., etc. As I said in my earlier post, anapanasati is to those monks what PCsati is to you and me. So there's no change of subject here. It all comes back to this: has mindfulness of the presently appearing dhamma been developed sufficiently so that it arises whatever the activity? If so, then if and when anapanasati is developed there will be mindfulness of breathing also, just like in the sutta. But of the two (well developed mindfulness and well developed anapanasati), the mindfulness is the more valuable by far. > I never said at the exclusion of other practices Jon! > This thread has been about Anapanasati. Now you wish > to theorize about other practices too! For what? To analyze > yourself a way not to do them also? There is no separate development of insight called anapanasati. There is just the development of insight together with anapanasati, for those who know both their mindfulness and their anapanasati. Thanks for the comments, Eric! Jon 35841 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Aug 29, 2004 6:29am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: cita and cetasikas, Htoo, AL Dear Htoo, AL, op 27-08-2004 21:21 schreef htootintnaing op htootintnaing@y...: > Dear Nina, > > Thank you very much for your message. That is why I am > posting 'Dhamma Thread'. The thread is so far about cittas. N: I am glad you do. Also the Visuddhimagga in dealing with the khandhas deals first with the khandha of consciousness. This is the reason given: N: First of all, we have to have firm understanding of citta, as being of four classes or jaatis (Jaati is nature): kusala, akusala, vipaaka or result and kiriya, neither cause nor result. The accompanying cetasikas are of the same jaati as the citta. Feeling, a universal accompanying each citta, can be of four jaatis and it is very different in each case. Akusala feeling is completely different from kusala feeling, but we may be easily deluded. Vipaaka feeling is very different again. Nina. 35842 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Aug 29, 2004 6:29am Subject: Re: So Called Momentariness, no 2. Hi Howard, op 14-08-2004 16:14 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: > > The following are some thoughts of mine on distinguishing paramattha > dhammas from pa~n~natti. I believe that both of these are dependent on mental > processing. But paramattha dhammas depend only on sa~n~na, whereas pa~n~natti > depend on both sa~n~na, and, most characteristically, on sankhara. N: Sankhaara has different meanings in different contexts, but I think you mean here sankhaarakkhandha, all cetasikas, except feeling and sañña. H: San~n~na is > an analytical operation (albeit based on memory and comparison), whereas > sankhara/fabrication is synthetic. N: I would just like to add a few points with concrete examples. Instead of concept and ultimate reality I would rather speak of: the world of conventional realities (abridged as C) and the world of ultimate realities (abridged as U). I shall go to these two worlds now alternately, flashing backwards and forwards. C: I feel lonely without friends, I would like to have friends around me. U: True friendship is with the citta, with metta citta. This helps us to have purer kusala, with no strings attached, no near enemy of selfish affection. It is the kusala citta, very momentary, that is helping or giving, arisen because of the appropriate conditions. C: Anger, you called it the social aspect of dosa, is often directed to people. I feel annoyed when someone finds fault with my friends and speaks in an unkind way to them. U: Anger is with the citta, rooted in dosa. Here we see the usefulness of the sutta explanation in conventional terms: the ten bases of anger, and among them: someone else being unkind to those who are dear to us. However, not the other person, not the circumstances are the real cause of dosa. It is in the citta. We have to know the citta, it always comes back to knowing the citta. C: He is a good person, with a lot of merit. He is a mischievous person, doing evil things. U: The citta is kusala, the citta is akusala. Each citta arises because of conditions and falls away immediately. Nobody knows the strength of the latent tendencies he has accumulated, and suddenly these condition akusala citta. Everybody has accumulated all kinds, we can be sure of that. Citta is the source of sila through speech and action. How can we perform good sila if we do not scrutinize the citta that motivates it. We have to find out whether there is conceit in our dealings with others; it can be the condition for wrong action and wrong speech, but we may not notice it. You said to Ken: < Pa~n~natti appear to have the tilakkhana as well (derivatively), and seeing > these in pa~n~natti constitutes a first step on the path. When the Buddha said > that birth is dukkha, death is dukkha, not getting what one wants is dukkha, > etc, he was talking about pa~n`natti!> C: The Buddha was full of compassion and when someone had a great loss he would speak to dukkha in life. All the sufferings one meets in life. We see here that conventional realities are helpful in our social life. When the time was ripe he would help a person to have a deeper understanding of dukkha. U: There is conventional death and there is momentary death. The last one is the arising and falling away of each citta, and that is the true dukkha, the Truth of dukkha. What is impermanent, thus, very momentary, is no real refuge. In explaining this the Buddha could help people in a more effective and profound way. As Ken said, the Buddha added:< in short, the five khandhas are dukkha>. Yes, the five khandhas belong to the world of ultimate relaities. These words stand for: citta, cetasika and rupa. The real goal of the Buddha's teachings was helping others to see ultimate realities as they are. To see them as anatta. Citta, cetasika, rupa and nibbana are ultimate realities. Whatever is not one of these four is a concept. But, as said, concepts are useful. They help us to lead our daily life and practise the Dhamma in daily life. Citta is very fast. The Buddha said that nothing is faster than citta and we cannot imagine its rapidity. To flash into the world of ultimate realities and be aware of nama and rupa takes only one moment and it can happen in a perfectly natural way, in the midst of our social life. We can keep the balance between conventional realities and ultimate realities, without drowning in the sea of concepts. Nina. 35843 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Aug 29, 2004 6:29am Subject: Re: [dsg]Path of Discrimination. Hi Howard, op 27-08-2004 21:08 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: > Howard: > Ahh, I see. But that is more of a "semi-sutta" (or collection of > such). It's a very late addition to the canon and has a flavor all its own > (rather > different, it seems to me, from both sutta, abhidhamma, and commentary, > though most like a suttic-commentarial mix). N: According to tradition, composed by Sariputta. Also rehearsed at the first Council, like the oldest commentaries that Buddhaghosa found in the Mahaavihaara. I do not know much about history, but what I see, it is completely in agreement with the other parts of the Tipitaka and it has a great amount of references to sutta texts. Here is a quote: We read (Ch 69, 585): <³Here the Perfect One knows beings¹ biasses, he knows their underlying tendencies (åsayånusaya ñåna), he knows their behaviour (carita), he knows their dispositions(adhimutti), he knows beings as capable and incapable. 586. What is the bias which is latent in beings? Beings are supported by the wrong view of existence or supported by the wrong view of non-existence thus: ŒThe world is eternal¹ or ŒThe world is not eternal¹ or ŒThe world is finite¹ or ŒThe world is infinite¹ or ŒThe soul and the body are the same¹ or ŒThe soul is one, the body another¹ or ŒA Perfect One is not after death¹ or ³A Perfect One both is and is not after death¹ or ŒA Perfect One neither is nor is not after death.¹ Or else, avoiding these extremes, they have Œacceptance in conformity¹ 7 with respect to dhammas that are dependently arisen through specific conditionality. He also knows them as pursuing sensual-desires thus: ŒThis person gives importance to sensual desires, is biassed to sensual desires, is inclined to sensual desires. He also knows them as pursuing renunciation thus: This person gives importance to renunciation, is biassed to renunciation, is inclined to renunciation. He also knows them as pursuing ill-will thus: ŒThis person gives importance to ill-will, is biassed to ill-will, is inclined to ill-will. He also knows them as pursuing non-ill-will thus: ŒThis person gives importance to non-ill-will, is biassed to non-ill-will, is inclined to non-ill-will. He also knows them as pursuing stiffness-and-torpor thus: ŒThis person gives importance to stiffness-and-torpor, is biassed to stiffness-and-torpor, is inclined to stiffness-and-torpor. He also knows them as pursuing perception of light thus: ŒThis person gives importance to perception of light, is biassed to perception of light, is inclined to perception of light. These are the biasses (chanda) that become underlying tendencies in beings. 587. What are the defilements that are underlying tendencies in beings? There are seven underlying tendencies (anusaya): Underlying tendency to greed for sense-desire (kåma-råga), underlying tendency to aversion (patigha), underlying tendency to conceit (måna), underlying tendency to wrong view (ditthi), underlying tendency to doubt (vicikicchå), underlying tendency to desire for becoming (continued existence, bhavaråga), and underlying tendency to ignorance (avijjå).²> From the above quoted text we can see that behaviour, habits and defilements are accumulated and become dormant in the succession of cittas. The English transl. is not always clear, but I have it also in Thai + the very extensive commentary (2 big volumes). You have read parts? Could you indicate, if you like, what you found a different flavour? I do not ask this to argue, but I just like it to talk more on this impressive work. To me it has the flavour of anatta. You may have stumbled on the English transl. which may have given you the impression of a different style or flavour, but with my Thai text I can do something about that. Larry said long ago (when going over the Co to the Satipatthanasutta) that he found this work too difficult, but it may be for the same reason, the translation. Did you follow Num's series? also see: I, § 597 (p. 127), about his Great Compassion: Nina. 35844 From: Date: Sun Aug 29, 2004 4:09am Subject: Re: [dsg]Path of Discrimination. Hi, Nina - In a message dated 8/29/04 9:30:36 AM Eastern Daylight Time, nilo@e... writes: > Hi Howard, > op 27-08-2004 21:08 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: > > >Howard: > >Ahh, I see. But that is more of a "semi-sutta" (or collection of > >such). It's a very late addition to the canon and has a flavor all its own > >(rather > >different, it seems to me, from both sutta, abhidhamma, and commentary, > >though most like a suttic-commentarial mix). > N: According to tradition, composed by Sariputta. Also rehearsed at the > first Council, like the oldest commentaries that Buddhaghosa found in the > Mahaavihaara. ------------------------------------------------- Howard: Well, of course, we don't really know whether either of these traditional assumptions are true. It wouldn't surprise me if at least some of it were given by Sariputta, who is also strongly associated with the Abhidhamma. To me, much of it sounds like something composed by a committee of academics - which, despite my background, or perhaps because of it, isn't great praise. ;-) I don't find this work to constitute pleasant reading! (Actually, I find the the Dhammasangani easier!) Whoever composed this dense work does not strike me as a great communicator. Of course, perhaps the problem lies in the translation. I suspect that may be the problem with much of the Abhidhamma as well - clumsy translation giving an incorrect view of the original. ------------------------------------------------------- > I do not know much about history, but what I see, it is completely in > agreement with the other parts of the Tipitaka and it has a great amount of > references to sutta texts. Here is a quote: > > We read (Ch 69, 585): > > <³Here the Perfect One knows beings¹ biasses, he knows their underlying > tendencies (Ã¥sayÃ¥nusaya ñåna), he knows their behaviour (carita), he knows > their dispositions(adhimutti), he knows beings as capable and incapable. > 586. What is the bias which is latent in beings? > Beings are supported by the wrong view of existence or supported by the > wrong view of non-existence thus: Å’The world is eternal¹ or Å’The world is > not eternal¹ or Å’The world is finite¹ or Å’The world is infinite¹ or Å’The > soul and the body are the same¹ or Å’The soul is one, the body another¹ or Å’ > A > Perfect One is not after death¹ or ³A Perfect One both is and is not after > death¹ or Å’A Perfect One neither is nor is not after death.¹ Or else, > avoiding these extremes, they have Å’acceptance in conformity¹ 7 with respect > to dhammas that are dependently arisen through specific conditionality. > He also knows them as pursuing sensual-desires thus: Å’This person gives > importance to sensual desires, is biassed to sensual desires, is inclined to > sensual desires. He also knows them as pursuing renunciation thus: This > person gives importance to renunciation, is biassed to renunciation, is > inclined to renunciation. He also knows them as pursuing ill-will thus: > Å’This person gives importance to ill-will, is biassed to ill-will, is > inclined to ill-will. He also knows them as pursuing non-ill-will thus: > Å’This person gives importance to non-ill-will, is biassed to non-ill-will, > is inclined to non-ill-will. He also knows them as pursuing > stiffness-and-torpor thus: Å’This person gives importance to > stiffness-and-torpor, is biassed to stiffness-and-torpor, is inclined to > stiffness-and-torpor. He also knows them as pursuing perception of light > thus: Å’This person gives importance to perception of light, is biassed to > perception of light, is inclined to perception of light. > These are the biasses (chanda) that become underlying tendencies in beings. > 587. What are the defilements that are underlying tendencies in beings? > There are seven underlying tendencies (anusaya): Underlying tendency to > greed for sense-desire (kÃ¥ma-rÃ¥ga), underlying tendency to aversion > (patigha), underlying tendency to conceit (mÃ¥na), underlying tendency to > wrong view (ditthi), underlying tendency to doubt (vicikicchÃ¥), underlying > tendency to desire for becoming (continued existence, bhavarÃ¥ga), and > underlying tendency to ignorance (avijjÃ¥).²> > > From the above quoted text we can see that behaviour, habits and defilements > are accumulated and become dormant in the succession of cittas. > > The English transl. is not always clear, but I have it also in Thai + the > very extensive commentary (2 big volumes). ---------------------------------------------------- Howard: Ahh! That is what I suspected. A poor translation! --------------------------------------------------- > You have read parts? Could you indicate, if you like, what you found a > different flavour? I do not ask this to argue, but I just like it to talk > more on this impressive work. To me it has the flavour of anatta. You may > have stumbled on the English transl. which may have given you the impression > of a different style or flavour, but with my Thai text I can do something > about that. Larry said long ago (when going over the Co to the > Satipatthanasutta) that he found this work too difficult, but it may be for > the same reason, the translation. ----------------------------------------------------- Howard: Well, what I had in mind was the following: First of all, the style, due I suppose to poor translation, is very stilted and uninspired. Besides that, there is a lot of quoting of suttas, but no presentation of previously unheard suttas, which makes it different from any books of the Sutta Pitaka. It is very commentarial in form, however not formally so in that it doesn't consist of a series of commentaries on specific suttas. In general, it appears largely to consist of a series of rather dry lectures on a variety of Dhamma topics. The only parts that I have read with more than a passing, superficial scrutiny, are the sections dealing with mindfulness of the breath, which has a fair amount of material that I found of considerable interest, and the discussion of sabhava, which basically speaks against the notion. It is that, BTW, which suggests to me a late development, a countervailing move to what some, especially proto-Mahayanists, might have considered a substantialist inclination. I rather suspect that this work is a combination of early material, possibly stemming from Sariputta, plus later, Abhidhamma-influenced material added by scholars, and late material intended to be "corrective" in the same sense as the Katthavatthu was intended as a corrective to certain heterodox inclinations. ------------------------------------------------ > Did you follow Num's series? also see: I, § 597 (p. 127), about his Great > Compassion: is enclosed in an egg (of ignorance), a tangled skein, a knotted ball (of > thraed)...there descends the Great Compassion for beings...> > -------------------------------------------------- Howard: No, I'm sorry to say that I did not. With regard to the PTSMBDMGA , from time to time I come back to it with the intention of pushing my way through, but the parchment-dry style, especially in early sections, always serevs as a great obstacle. I promise to go back to it! This time, I'll try to go very slowly so that I don't skip over any gems in the roadway. -------------------------------------------------- > > Nina. > ========================= With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 35845 From: Date: Sun Aug 29, 2004 4:17am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: So Called Momentariness, no 2. Hi, Nina - Though my own formulation would be different from yours, particularly in "citta" terminology, I have no substantive disagreement with what you write below. In a message dated 8/29/04 9:43:59 AM Eastern Daylight Time, nilo@e... writes: > Hi Howard, > op 14-08-2004 16:14 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: > > > >The following are some thoughts of mine on distinguishing paramattha > >dhammas from pa~n~natti. I believe that both of these are dependent on > mental > >processing. But paramattha dhammas depend only on sa~n~na, whereas > pa~n~natti > >depend on both sa~n~na, and, most characteristically, on sankhara. > N: Sankhaara has different meanings in different contexts, but I think you > mean here sankhaarakkhandha, all cetasikas, except feeling and sañña. > > H: San~n~na is > >an analytical operation (albeit based on memory and comparison), whereas > >sankhara/fabrication is synthetic. > > N: I would just like to add a few points with concrete examples. Instead of > concept and ultimate reality I would rather speak of: the world of > conventional realities (abridged as C) and the world of ultimate realities > (abridged as U). I shall go to these two worlds now alternately, flashing > backwards and forwards. > > The real goal of the Buddha's teachings was helping others to see ultimate > realities as they are. To see them as anatta. Citta, cetasika, rupa and > nibbana are ultimate realities. Whatever is not one of these four is a > concept. But, as said, concepts are useful. They help us to lead our daily > life and practise the Dhamma in daily life. Citta is very fast. The Buddha > said that nothing is faster than citta and we cannot imagine its rapidity. > To flash into the world of ultimate realities and be aware of nama and rupa > takes only one moment and it can happen in a perfectly natural way, in the > midst of our social life. We can keep the balance between conventional > realities and ultimate realities, without drowning in the sea of concepts. > Nina. ============================ With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 35846 From: htootintnaing Date: Sun Aug 29, 2004 9:54am Subject: Jhana Journey ( 08 ) Dear Dhamma Friends, Now the hana practitioner is quite ready to start the jhana joruney. He now has unaborted counter-image ( patibaga-nimitta ). He is concentrating on the counter-image of WHITE. It seems nothing outside of the object of WHITE arise in his mind. But actually there arise and exist some mind related things when he is practising so. He must frequently check the components of his mind and responses of his own mind and the resultant effects. Checking so will find that hindrances ( nivarana ) do arise. At first they arise frequently because they go unchecked through his mind. With diligent practice the frequency of arising of hindrances (nivarana ) comes to less and less frequent arising and finally to an undetectable level. Actually this is just a temporary suppression, which may extend days, months, years, may be kappa-long ( a cycle of 1.initiation of the planet earth, 2.development to a vegetative state, 3.complete destruction, and 4.calming down just before initiation of a new planet). This is the main difference from vipassana, in which once eradicated the eradicated things never arise. He must continue his practice. As there are no more hindrances (nivarana ) arise, his mind seems to be calm and well concentrated on the object ( arammana ). At first he may feel peace, rejoiced, very delighted, feel ease and well, want himself stay on the object of counter-image ( patibaga nimitta ), he will not want to depart from the object. Next, he will well concentrate on the counter-image and his mind is then balancedly placed on that counter-image ( patibaga nimitta ). He must be mindful at this stage. Because there always are enemies in jhana practice. As he feel peace he may become conceited and then his mind may switch onto one of five hindrances ( nivarana ) again. This is just at the foot of jhana and the jhana Journey is quite ready. At this stage what I would like to suggest is check hindrances ( nivarana dhamma ) frequently and know at what stage is own achievement. May you all be able to eliminate nivarana dhamma and feel calm. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 35847 From: htootintnaing Date: Sun Aug 29, 2004 10:22am Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 051 ) Dear Dhamma Friends, The 55th citta of 89 total cittas is rupakusala the 1st jhana citta. As jhana factors, this citta is accompanied by 5 jhana factors even though there are many other cetasikas, which I will be discussing in the future. Vitakka and vicara have been discussed to some details in the previous post of Dhamma Thread ( 050 ). In this post the third jhana factor piti or rapture or joy will be discussed in some detail. Piti or joy is one of 52 cetasikas. Among 52 cetasikas, 7 cetasikas arise with any kind of citta. But piti does not. But piti can arise both in kusala cittas, akusala cittas, vipaka cittas, kiriya cittas, it is called pakinnaka cetasika or particular mental factor. Most of you once in a life feel or understand something about piti. This need elaboration because there are many translated words and they may or may not represent the same weightage as Pali piti does. There are five different kinds of piti. They are 1. kuddika piti 2. khanika piti 3. okkantika piti 4. ubbega piti 5. pharana piti At first you will feel unease to hear or to see these jargonic pali terms. But as you become familiar with them, you will surely master in some Pali words and master in jhana and dhamma if you give a good effort in studying dhamma. Studying dhamma is a rare chance as there are many requisites to fulfil this study. Kuddika piti is like a feeling of slightest sense of joy and interest in a particular object. It is actually not a feeling. The associated feeling will be somanassa or mental joy. But piti is another cetasika different from vedana or feeling. This kuddika piti is the least powerful among the five piti. There is just an interest in an object. This interest has some pleasurable effect and this effect is produced by kuddika piti. This is the function of piti. Khanika piti is a kind of piti like a momentary mental flooding of joy. When you experience some success like passing a difficult examination or overcoming others in terms of achievement, your mind will be filled with joy. This joy is like flood and flow through out your body and the body feels very ease. Okkantika piti is a kind of piti and it is like oscillating joy. It is oscillating interest in the object. So interest that mind frequently approaches the object again and again. This is why the interest is swinging and oscillating. The body will lighter than the body with piti of khanika kind. Ubbega piti is another kind of piti. This joy is so intense that it acts like ecstacy. There is thrilling of emotion with intense joy. When you are in water and when large waves of water strike you, you will feel as if you are lifted. This thrilling is very powerful and the body will almost weightless. Pharana piti is the most powerful piti. This joy has the maximal intensity in terms of joy. The interest in the object is so intense that it amounts the whole body and takes as rapture and each and every body part is weightless, very light and the body may even float in the air without even achieving real jhanas. In the 55th citta, there may be any kind of piti but most probably the 4th or the 5th kind will prevail as a jhanic factor. Unlike other piti, jhanic piti are much much more powerful than any other kama kusala or akusala piti. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome and they will be valuable. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts. 35848 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Aug 29, 2004 11:52am Subject: Re: [dsg] cita and cetasikas (ch 4) Dear AL, Rob K answered the first part: the following javana cittas are so fast. But some more to clear up. Seeing is vipakacitta, the result of kamma. So are hearing etc. We see desirable and undesirable objects, but seeing is so fast, we cannot even trace whether it is kusala vipaka or akusala vipaka. But why should we, it is vipaka, let that be enough. The impact of the object on eyesense, earsense, etc. is gentle, compared to the impact of the three Great Elements on the bodysense. Seeing etc. is accompanied by indifferent feeling. Body-consciousness is also vipaka but it is not accompanied by indifferent feeling, but by pleasant bodily feeling or unpleasant bodily feeling. The impact is so direct. See p. 24 where this is explained by means of cottonwool, placed on an anvil and struck with a hammer. The impact goes right through, that is the direct impact on the bodysense. But it is very short, only one moment. op 29-08-2004 03:21 schreef Andrew Levin op andrewlevin@e...: > I do not understand the statement that somanassa accompanies the citta > in the first four stages of jhana, but not the fifth stage of jhana. > As I understand it, we have the first four jhanas, and then the last > four which are of another plane, the immaterial jhanas which would > include jhanas five through eight, thus making five not the highest, > but eight. N: The fifth rupajhana. There is a fourfold system and a fivefold system. Here I refer to the highest stage of fine material jhana. The arupajhanas have the same feeling as the fifth stage of rupajhana. Somanassa is more coarse than upekkha. > Next, I understand that domanassa, unhappy feeling, can arise only > with akusala-born cittas, and can only come with citta rooted in > aversion. It is then said that wise attention to the unpleasant > object can result in kusala citta rather than akusala. This is panna, > penetrating the true natures of the object, identifying the three > dharma seals in it, correct? N: Also kusala citta without pañña is wise attention, as I explained to Phil. When there is pañña there can be different degrees of pañña. Pañña that is more developed can realize the dhamma appearing at that moment as impermanent, or dukkha, or anatta. > AL: What, precisely, is the conditioning factor for dosa which arises > through clinging to sense pleasures and not gaining pleasant contacts? > It would seem to me this dosa would be more likely to arise from > unfulfilled craving, not clinging, unless we are speaking of dosa > arising as the object which is clung to passes away. N: Ignorance of realities and lobha (you can translate this as craving or clinging) are conditioning factors. As you say, not getting what you desire conditions aversion. The object you like may not come or it may have gone. AL: It is said that arupa jhana and rupa jhana can be cultivated by those > who practise shamatha meditation and have the right conditions. What > are some of these conditions. From what I gather, the mere presence > of the counterpart sign may be enough to enter the absorptions in some > cases, but perhaps not, as Ayya Khema suggests we need some level of > contentment (santutthi) or loving-kindness (metta) to proceed. Could > these be some of the conditions meant to lead to jhana in the passage? N: In the first place right understanding of what kusala citta is. Each kusala citta is accompanied by calm. Right understanding of the way to develop calm, freedom from akusala. It has to be known exactly when there is kusala citta and when akusala citta with clinging to calm. AL: It is said, "Indifferent feeling accompanies vipakacittas such as > seeing or hearing." Forgive me, my understanding is still weak at > this point. Are cittas of the sense doors such as seeing and hearing, > always vipakacitta, the result of karma? I do not understand. N: See above. A: At this point I'm going to stop asking questions and taking notes as > I'm not sure my method of trying to understand this material is a > workable one. I will wait to get feedback on whether it seems I'm > just going through the material, copying down notes, and asking > questions, or whether it looks like I'm getting a viable understanding > that can be applied to everyday life. N: Your Q. are good, to the point. Yes the goal should be application in daily life, otherwise there is just speculation. One remark. I think Sarah had in mind a small portion at a time. You could take just 1/4 page or so. Otherwise it is too hurried, we cannot get in deeply into the subject in this way. Better take a small part and really go into the matter thoroughly. Nina. 35849 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Aug 29, 2004 11:52am Subject: Re: [dsg] cita and cetasikas Dear AL, op 29-08-2004 01:30 schreef Andrew Levin op andrewlevin@e...: > > So what level of knowledge of cittas and cetasikas should I understand > to be necessary for contemplation of consciousness? You said in > another post we need to know which cittas are cause and result. Can > you explain why this is, and what further knowledge is necessary? N: It is very basic to know that kusala citta and akusala citta are: cittas which are cause, which can motivate deeds that cause results, and to know that vipakacittas, such as seeing, etc. are cittas that are results. We react with kusala or akusala to the sense impressions all day long. It is important to know more about this. Some basic understanding of what sati is, and how it can arise in the process, some knowledge of processes of cittas is useful. AL: I will assume knowledge of cetasikas is beneficial but unnecessary for > contemplation of consciousness. N: Some understanding is necessary. One should know that pañña and sati are cetasikas. But there are no rules about the extent of knowledge that is necessary. It depends on the individual's inclination. AL: I will also assume knowledge of every citta that we are able to be > aware or mindful of is desirable for contemplation of consciousness. N: I would put this more carefully, taking into account that we cannot direct anything. Gradually we come to understand more about citta, and then there can be conditions for mindfulness and direct understanding of a rupa or a nama as it presents itself. I have to rush, we are going to my 103 year old father, making music and preparing dinner for him. Here is my field for the brahmaviharas, but also for right understanding. But I also react with akusala cittas, plenty of them. Nina. 35850 From: kenhowardau Date: Sun Aug 29, 2004 1:37pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Cooran 13-15 August, 2004/KenH Hi Howard, You wrote to apologise for your "arrogant tone and flippant words" in an earlier message. Rest assured no offence was taken. I am sure the tone and words appeared worse to you, on re-reading, than they ever did to me and other readers. The same thing happens to me all too often: what seems at the time of writing to be 'a forthright style but with obvious good intentions,' appears later to be an arrogant style with flippant intentions. :-) I began drafting a reply immediately after your first message but got sidetracked with a message to James. And then there were those excellent questions from Andrew L which kept me occupied for quite a while. I see Nina has posted to that thread: it will be good to see her answers. Mine had quite a few gaps in them. :-) Back to the drawing board: I have to finish my reply to you and one to James. Kind regards, Ken H 35851 From: robmoult Date: Sun Aug 29, 2004 2:29pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Scope and Focus (About Rupa) Hi Ken H and Howard, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Ken (and Rob) - > > In a message dated 8/26/04 10:27:08 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > kenhowardau@y... writes: > > > > > Hi RobM, > > > > Firstly, I should take back my interpretation of the Potthapada > > Sutta. Without reading it, I just assumed it was one of those suttas > > where the Buddha says `living being' `chariot' etc., are > > conventional designations and only the five khandhas are real. I've > > just now had a look at the Potthapada Sutta and I find it hard to > > follow: it seems to be addressing some other topic. > > > > You wrote: > > ---------------- > > >I am of the opinion that the Suttas do not have an ontological > > focus. In other words, the Suttas do not focus on defining and > > classifying realities as distinct from non-realities (i.e. > > concepts). I have the impression that the ontological focus arises > > only in the Abhidhamma, not in the Suttas. However, I will quickly > > change my opinion if somebody can point me to a relevant Sutta. > > > ---------------- > > > > What would you accept as a `relevant sutta?' The Sabba-sutta is one > > of many that describe the all (the loka). That sutta reduces the > > world to `eye and eye-object' `ear and ear object' etc. What > > stricter ontology could you want? > > ------------------------------------------- > Howard: > You are correct! :-) > -------------------------------------------- > ===== We can define analysis as the act of breaking something into component parts. There are countless examples of analysis in the Suttas: - nama and rupa - five aggregates - six dhatus (earth, fire, water, wind, space, consciousness) - twelve ayatanas (avenues of sense perception and mental cognition; this is the form of analysis used in the Sabba Sutta) - eighteen dhatus (ayatanas + six forms of consciousness) Clearly, the Suttas are full of analysis. However, ontology is more than analysis; ontology is analysis for the purpose of differentiating what is "real" and what is "not real" or differentiating what "exists" and what "does not exist". To qualify as having an ontological focus, a Sutta has to include the concepts of reality / non-reality or existence / non-existence. The Sabba Sutta does not meet this criterion. The Sabba Sutta differentiates what is "within the range" (only the ayatanas meet this criterion) and what is "beyond the range" (everything else). You gave the example of a person not existing by drawing an analogy of a chariot not existing (being broken into component parts). I believe that the first time this analogy was used is in the opening section of Milindapanha (where Nagasena meets King Milinda for the first time); this was written about 500 years after the death of the Buddha (i.e. this analogy is not from the Suttas). I am going to take the position that early Buddhism does not have an ontological focus. I am trying out this somewhat extreme position to see where it leads; I am very willing to abandon this position if I can find textual support. When I talk about early Buddhism, I am not including the Kathavatthu (Points of Controversy) which was written 350 years after the Buddha's death. My definition of early Buddhism includes the Vinaya Pitaka, the Sutta Pitaka and the earliest six books of the Abhidhamma Pitaka. The first six books of the Abhidhamma Pitaka engage in an unbelievable level of analysis; mental states (cittas), mental factors (cetasikas), material qualities (rupas), etc. But where in these original texts does it say that this analysis is for the purpose of differentiating what "exists" and what "does not exist"? According to Nyanatiloka's "Manual of Buddhist Terms and Doctrines", the word "paramattha" (ultimate reality) first appeared in the Kathavatthu. I suspect that the discussion of realities is a later addition to Buddhism (not part of the original Buddha's teaching). This position may evoke a strong and emotional reaction from some on DSG. I am hoping that somebody can prove me wrong by pointing me to a textual reference. ===== > > > > The Abhidhamma is not found only in the Abhidhamma-pitaka: when any > > part of the Buddha's teaching is rightly understood, it is all > > Abhidhamma (nama and rupa). > > > -------------------------------------------- > Howard: > I'd put it differently. I'd say that the Dhamma is not found only in > the suttas, but also in the Abhidhamma Pitaka. It is *Dhamma* that the Buddha > taught! > ------------------------------------------- ===== Well said, Howard. ===== > > > > > -------------- > > RM: >Let us consider the quote I gave above from the Potthapada > > Sutta (DN9) and Thanissaro Bhikkhu's comments (from the Sutta > > introduction on Access to Insight): > > > -------------- > > > > Were you reading DSG recently when I started a thread > > called "Eternalism on ATI?" I sincerely want people to be aware of > > Thanissaro Bhikkhu's eternalist beliefs. Access-to-Insight is a > > handy source of Sutta translations, however, when you recommend it > > to beginners, please, as a matter of urgency, inform them of TB's > > extreme heterodoxy. (It is not just me, but mainstream Theravada- > > Buddhist academia, that regards TB's views as heterodox.) > > > ------------------------------------------- > Howard: > I'm beginning to convinced by you, Ken, with regard to Bhante T. > ------------------------------------------- ===== Sorry, I missed that thread. I tend to use Bhikkhu Bodhi's commentary. Thanks for the heads up. I have snipped off some other stuff that I think is more or less resolved. Metta, Rob M :-) 35852 From: robmoult Date: Sun Aug 29, 2004 2:52pm Subject: Re: cita and cetasikas Hi Andrew, Sorry for the delay in responding. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Andrew Levin" wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" > wrote: > While I ask good questions, nonetheless I feel I am not advanced > enough to take an understanding of the material in your book (I > looked through some of the second chapter), so what of giving you > suggestions about it? Perhaps when I have a better knowledge of > cittas and cetasikas from the two books by Nina I will be reading I > can return to your book and glean from it what I can. Sorry dude. ===== No problem. That still leaves unanswered your question regarding the seventeen mental states in a sense-door process. I will provide an overview using an analogy from the commentaries. Life-continuum mental states (indeterminite number) =================================================== At the foot of a mango tree, a man is sleeping with his head covered. Past life-continuum mental state (process starts) ================================================= A wind strikes the tree. Vibrating life-continuum mental state ===================================== The branches sway with the wind. Arresting life-continuum mental state ===================================== A fruit falls beside the sleeping man. Adverting mental state ====================== The man awakes. Eye-consciousness mental state (i.e. seeing) ============================================ The man removes his head covering. Receiving mental state ====================== The man picks up the fruit. Investigating mental state ========================== The man inspects the fruit. Determining mental state ======================== The man understands that this is a mango fruit with certain qualities. Seven javana mental states (these create kamma) =============================================== The man eats the fruit. Two registration mental states (after which the process ends) ============================================================= The man notes the after-taste. Life-continuum mental states (indeterminite number) =================================================== The man covers his head and falls back to sleep. I hope that this analogy provides the level of detail you were looking for. ===== > > > The mental states which take Nibbana as object are called lokuttara > > (supramundane). There are two ways of counting lokuttara mental > > states. The most common way of counting lokuttara mental states > > indicates that there are a total of eight: > > - Sotapanna path > > - Sotapanna fruit > > - Sakadagami path > > - Sakadagami fruit > > - Anagami path > > - Anagami fruit > > - Arahant path > > - Arahant fruit > > > > I hope that this helps rather than confuses. > > It is good knowledge, but rather I am asking what is the citta that > can perceive nibbana *before* the supramundane paths are acheived, > that is, before the attainment of sotapanna, before stream-entry or > any attainments for that matter. This *is* possible, I have > experienced what nibbana is like yet I am not sufficiently advanced > in my practise that my mind could align with the supramundane planes > and experience a stage of enlightenment. Please understand the > experience I am trying to relate. ===== It sounds as though you have experienced some incredibly blissful mental states, but according to the Abhidhamma, they were not yet Nibbana as Nibanna is only the object of mental states associated with sainthood. This is good news - the best is yet to come! Metta, Rob M :-) 35853 From: plnao Date: Sun Aug 29, 2004 3:37pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhamma Thread ( 051 ) Hello Htoo Thank you for this series. The explanation of vitakka and vicara was very helpful. I'm not able to access the internet now, but when I will study the entire series. Does piti arise in/with mudita? (sympathetic joy of the brahma-viharas.) When I feel that mudita has arisen in daily life there is a flooding feeling similar to the way you describe khanica piti. Does that flood of joy feeling come from piti or mudita or both? I'm not (yet) seeking jhanas but I assume that piti and the other jhana factors can be understood and experienced in daily life. Is that right? Thanks in advance. Metta, Phil ----- Original Message ----- From: "htootintnaing" To: Sent: Monday, August 30, 2004 2:22 AM Subject: [dsg] Dhamma Thread ( 051 ) > > Dear Dhamma Friends, > > The 55th citta of 89 total cittas is rupakusala the 1st jhana citta. > As jhana factors, this citta is accompanied by 5 jhana factors even > though there are many other cetasikas, which I will be discussing in > the future. > > Vitakka and vicara have been discussed to some details in the > previous post of Dhamma Thread ( 050 ). In this post the third jhana > factor piti or rapture or joy will be discussed in some detail. 35854 From: ericlonline Date: Sun Aug 29, 2004 4:26pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Anapanasati/ Jon I Hey Jon, J> #1. The word of the Master cannot be fully understood (intellectually) from just a reading of the Tipitaka itself (at least, for someone of my limited level of understanding). Agreed. It is just words till experiential understanding dawns. J>#2. The commentaries are the accepted gloss on the word of the Master, having been rehearsed at various Great Councils (as far as I'm aware this is not disputed). Sounds official! J> #3. Accordingly, I'll use the commentaries as my point of reference for reading the Tipitaka, in preference to anyone else's gloss on the word of the Master. As a matter of interest, what is the basis on which you decide who to listen to? I listen to everyone in general and no one in particular. ... > J> ....since I don't think such speculation helps at all. > Then why speculate one way or another? J> Agreed, such speculation [about possible attainment in this lifetime] is not necessary. It is however necessary to know where we are at present in terms of the development of insight, since there's no point in trying to do what the big boys can do if we haven't got the basics down yet. You have an insight scale? How much does yours weigh? ... > The 'practice' is comprised of > many practices. There are many inroads > in which to take a stand and try and irradicate > the defilemsnts or cultivate the wholesome. > This can be done with or without mindfulness > of breathing. J> Yes, the practice is nothing other than the development of insight into the true nature of a presently arising dhamma. The necessary conditions for the development of this insight are set out time and again in the suttas. Mindfulness of breathing is not of course one of the necessary conditions, but nonetheless if it is something one is skilled in it can be the basis for insight. Agreed. > But since the breath is always > there, why not put it to good use? J> But Eric, surely it can equally be said that the body is always there, or that visible-object is always there, or that feelings are always there, or that consciousness is always there? And these dhammas (in the form of the five aggregates, the sense bases (ayatanas), the elements (dhatus), etc) are mentioned in the suttas much more frequently than the breath. What's so special about breath, as you understand it? As object, it is there and easily seen. Plus, it is pretty much neutral i.e. one does not cling to or is averted by it, except in extreme circumstances. It is the 'body conditioner'. If one learns to breath 'rightly' good health benefits arise. It is also a type of metaphor for the 'mind conditioner'. So we can learn from investigating it within the frame of body reference how to deal with feelings. J> Also, where do you find reference in the suttas to 'putting the breath to good use?' http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn54-013.html J>This makes it sound like a handy technique of some kind. If understanding (insight ) is the key, how does breath help? Read, intellectually understand and practice the instruction to Ananda above and all of these questions can be answered. And if that does not work, find an accomplished dead or alive teacher. ... > That is one way to look at it. But like > I said before, you only fail to walk when > you quit trying. In this way, there is no > 'wrong' practice. Just those who try and those > who don't. Plus, it seems we become 'wiser' from > our 'failures' more than from our 'successes'. I > mean the Buddha was one wise teacher because > he performed so many 'wrong' practices before > his enlightenment. He knew from first hand > experience what worked and what did not. He > did not refer to second hand knowledge from some > manual, etc. J>The assumption that practising wrongly doesn't matter because you'll learn from it anyway doesn't really stand close scrutiny. Wrong practice conduces only to more wrong view, as far as I understand things. How do you know this? Did you ever practice wrongly? J> Wrong view is so crafty, it makes it appear as though progress is being made. No practice is better than wrong practice. I would say non-practice is better than right practice which is better than wrong practice which is better than no practice at all. PEACE E 35855 From: plnao Date: Sun Aug 29, 2004 4:34pm Subject: determining citta vs sanna? Hello all What is the difference between the determining citta which arises in the sense-door process and sanna which is a universal cetasika and comprises one of the aggregates? It seems to me they can both be described as perception. Do they work together to serve the same function? Oh, another question. I think I have read that the object isn't labeled until the sense door process has fallen away and the mind-door process has arisen. During the sense-door process an object is just an object.During the following mind-door process, it is understood as a pencil or whatever. If that is so, what does this sense-door determining citta do? In the mango tree simile Rob has provided, the determining citta "understands that this is a mango fruit with certain qualities." Am I mistaken in understanding that the object is just an object during the sense-door process? Thanks in advance Phil 35856 From: ericlonline Date: Sun Aug 29, 2004 4:36pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Annatta teaching Hey Jon, J> Dependence on manuals would be a burden, but having them as a resource isn't. (Of course, people who shoot from the hip tend to find references to the manuals tedious, for obvious reasons!) Did the Buddha 'shoot from the hip'? > Jon> In any event, I don't think there's anything in the Anapanasati Sutta about 'staking one's mindfulness to the breath'. > That is because you dont practice it. > The whole first tetrad uses the breath as > object. For piti to arise there has to > be a fair amount of ekaggata. This is staking > your awareness at your breath. J> The sutta describes a monk who is already skilled in the development of anapanasati, so naturally it deals extensively with breath as the object of the consciousness. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn54-013.html Does not say anything here about being skilled already? There are no qualifications given as to the 'type' of practitioner i.e. lay or monk, skilled or unskilled, etc. J> Such a monk is just being mindful of the present object, which in his case happens to be the breath. There is no selection of the object of mindfulness. In the sutta above, the word used is 'pursued'. Seems that involves 'selection'. But maybe you know the pali better so you could tell for sure. PEACE E 35857 From: Date: Sun Aug 29, 2004 4:01pm Subject: XIV 109 109. III. ii. A. 2. That, however, 'with root cause' is of eight kinds (73)-(80), like the profitable (1)-(8), being classed according to joy and so on. While the profitable arises in trainers and ordinary men only, this arises in Arahants only. This is the difference here. So firstly, that of the sense sphere is of eleven kinds. III. ii. B., III. ii. C. That, however, of the 'fine-material sphere' (81)-(85), and that of the 'immaterial sphere' (86)-(89) are [respectively] of five kinds and of four kinds like the profitable. But they should be understood to differ from the profitable in that they arise only in Arahants. So functional consciousness in the three planes is of twenty kinds in all. 35858 From: Date: Sun Aug 29, 2004 5:04pm Subject: Re: [dsg] XIV 109 Oops. Wrong address. I meant to send this to myself. Please disregard 109 for now. Larry 35859 From: ericlonline Date: Sun Aug 29, 2004 5:10pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Anapanasati/ Jon II Hey Jon, J> As I said earlier, I'm enjoying the banter, but I think it's good every so often to get back to the central issues between us which as I see it are: A. Anapanasati (as an aspect of samatha) Sure, that aspect being the 4th and 8th steps only. B. The Anapanasati Sutta C. The development of insight generally and especially in daily life. A. Anapanasati as samatha ================= J> I see from your comments that it's time for me to mention (yet again!)that the development of samatha in all its forms, including anapanasati, is a high degree of kusala, praised by the Buddha, and of great support in the development of insight, and to be developed by all. Then stay in the first 3 steps before samatha begins. Heck, stay in the first step if all you have is monkey mind! J> So while you and I no doubt have some differences on anapanasati, those differences are not simply that you are 'for' and I'm 'against'. I am very much 'for' also. Great! J> Our main difference lies I think in that while you seem to equate the general practice of anapanasati with what is in the Anapanasati Sutta, I see the general practice of anapanasati as something a little different to that, and I see the Anapanasati Sutta as dealing with a very particular instance of anapanasati, namely, how an advanced anapanasati practitioner can also develop insight based on his anapanasati. Let me explain. Where is the advanced practitioner mentioned here? http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn54-013.html B. Anapanasati Sutta ============= J>The passage most quoted and relied on from this sutta is the passage that says: "Mindfulness of in-&-out breathing, when developed & pursued, is of great fruit, of great benefit. Mindfulness of in-&-out breathing, when developed & pursued, brings the four frames of reference to their culmination. .." J> What does this passage actually say? First of all, note what it does *not* say. It does not say: <> In other words, the focus of the sutta is not on [ways of] developing the four frames of reference generally. It says so here in the beginning of this Sutta. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn54-013.html "Mindfulness of in-&-out breathing, when developed & pursued, brings the four frames of reference (foundations of mindfulness) to completion. J> In my view, the focus of this sutta is on anapanasati, as already known, practised and developed, and how it *can* in certain circumstances be developed in a very particular way so as to support the development of insight and the attainment of enlightenment (in tandem). http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn54-013.html Well here when asked about 1 factor the Buddha prescribed anapanasati. Not reading from texts, not hearing the dhamma, not studying paramattha dhammas in the abhidhamma, etc. ONE FACTOR!! Wow!, what an unqualified endorsement by the Buddha to Ananda! That is good enough for me to start practicing it! J> Consider the following 3 paragraphs from the sutta ATI version): <<<<< [14] "In this community of monks there are monks who remain devoted to mindfulness of in-&-out breathing. [15] "Mindfulness of in-&-out breathing, when developed & pursued, is of great fruit, of great benefit. Mindfulness of in-&-out breathing, when developed & pursued, brings the four frames of reference to their culmination. ... [16] "Now how is mindfulness of in-&-out breathing developed & pursued so as to bring the four frames of reference to their culmination?" >>>>> J> To my reading this says: <> J> So what follows is not hw mindfulness of breathing per se is developed, but how [already developed] mindfulness of breathing can be *further* developed to a particular end or purpose that would not otherwise ensue from its development. Does not have any of that here. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn54-013.html J> Eric, you may not agree with this reading, but I think you'll agree there's nothing 'anti' about it ;-)) Sure just like there is nothing 'for' this interpretation of yours here at this sutta. ;-) http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn54-013.html C. The development of insight (including in daily life). ================================= J>I'm sure we are agreed that it is the development of insight (i.e., insight into the true nature of presently arising reality) that leads to enlightenment. Sure it can from the ONE FACTOR that the Buddha mentioned. J> As I see it, this is the focus of the Anapanasati Sutta, as well as the Satipatthana Sutta and many other suttas, in fact the whole of the teachings. Sure. J> It's clear from the Satipatthana Sutta that mindfulness and understanding (sati sampajjanna) is the way of development of such insight, and that this can be developed at any time or place. J> This means that for monks whose daily life includes the practice ofanapanasati, it will be while breath is the object of consciousness; for the likes of you and me it will be what you describe as 'PC sati', namely, with dhammas appearing through any of the sense-doors, or through the mind-door, as object. What is wrong with both? They can surely support each other cant they? I mean ONE FACTOR is a pretty good endorsement. Especially as it was not qualified to whom the practitioner was in this sutta but just expounded in terms of qualities to be developed. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn54-013.html J> Actually the basic skill (note: not *technique*) is the same, but thecircumstances are different according to the natural inclination andassumed lifestyle of the person concerned (i.e., multiple sense- doorobjects at a PC keyboard, vs. breath as sole object at the shade of atree). So in discussing both aspects there's no attempt on my part to change the subject ;-)) But there is no reference to skill or lifestyle in this sutta? http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn54-013.html I am fine with 'skill' if you have aversion to technique btw. J> BTW, the reference in the sutta to the shade of a tree or an empty building represents a particular lifestyle. It simply isn't possible for someone to adopt the trappings of that lifestyle for the purpose of bringing themselves within the ambit of the sutta. The transition from urban, PC lifestyle to shade of tree or empty hut involves more than just a change in physical surroundings ;-)). Sure, samara changes. I wonder if the ONE FACTOR would change? J> PS You urge me to practice what is in the sutta, but at the same time you also say that the meaning of the sutta can only be know by taking up the practice. Apart from the circularity involved here ;- )), this to me means that the practice as embarked upon is bound to be wrong, and this will lead to more and more wrong practice. Well maybe you like it better from the Buddha. "Yes, Ananda, there is one quality that, when developed & pursued,... Mindfulness of in-&-out breathing, when developed & pursued, brings the four frames of reference (foundations of mindfulness) to completion. The four frames of reference, when developed & pursued, bring the seven factors for Awakening to completion. The seven factors for Awakening, when developed & pursued, bring clear knowing & release to completion. PEACE E 35860 From: ericlonline Date: Sun Aug 29, 2004 5:25pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Anapanasati/ Jon II Hey Jon, > J> Well, jhana is not mentioned by name, but that of course does not mean it is not being referred to. E> That is the beauty of it. It does not > exclude anyone even the beginner! J> I agree that the Anapanasati Sutta does not exclude the person who has not yet attained jhana; but I believe it does exclude anyone who is not already "devoted to the development of mindfulness of in- &-out breathing". They are not excluded here. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn54-013.html ... > Exactly why I have said it is an OK > practice for a beginner. I mean everyone > breaths. So we agree for once! :-) J> I agree that breath can be object of kusala consciousness for anyone. But I don't agree the Anapanasati Sutta is talking about just anyone. Here the Buddha does not qualify but says ONE FACTOR! http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn54-013.html ... > Back to this again! Look, it is the origin > of the story. Like saying who was there to > set the scene in plays. The same instructions > were given to Ananda alone. What does that mean??? > Was Ananda not at the other occasion? I thought > he had a great memory? Or was he a slow learner? > Needed to be told twice. Where is this leading > us? Everywhere but where the sutta instructs. J> Sorry, but you've lost me. Can I have a reference to this other sutta, please. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn54-013.html ----- J> Then let me come back to a question I asked before but didn't get an answer to: Do you equate jhana with Right Concentration, Sammasamadhi is defined as jhana in the Suttas. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/samma-samadhi.html J> and if so, would a person who rejected the Dhamma and followed another teaching, but who had developed jhana, be developing Right Concentration of the Eightfold Path, as you understand it? If a jewel thief was experiencing jhana while stealing jewels, that is not considered right concentration. ... > Seems if you took half the energy you are expending > to convince yourself not do it and do it, you > would be at the 4th jhana in no time! lol J> Yes, but what would I do when I got there? ;-)) go further as you would be on a roll j> But of the two (well developed mindfulness and well developed anapanasati), the mindfulness is the more valuable by far. Well, if you have neither. ONE FACTOR is all you need. PEACE E 35861 From: plnao Date: Sun Aug 29, 2004 5:54pm Subject: wisdom as a path factor? Hello all This morning reading Nina's "Perfections" came across this: "The commentary to the Cariyapitaka states that panna is the chief cause for the development of the other perfections, that it perfects them all." This brought a question to mind : why isn't right wisdom a path factor? It seems to me that it would be. Is there any value in wondering about this? Thanks in advance. Metta, Phil 35862 From: ericlonline Date: Sun Aug 29, 2004 6:09pm Subject: Theory and Practice - Eric Re: Anapanasati/ Sukin Hey Sukin, S> Eric I have just changed the name of this thread after considering your response below to Duncan in another thread. Great! Eric :"I wholeheartedly agree with your post. But I am a both/and kind of guy not an either/or. I don't limit my investigations to just Buddhism. Krishnamurti, Ramana, Lao Tzu, etc. etc. Premodern, modern, postmodern. I am enamored with those who have found meaning in their lives." S> I am not sure why you admire all those other people and philosophies; I do like what some of them have said too. However when it comes to judging whether they have Right View, I don't think any of them do. This means that none of them are enlightened and therefore them "finding meaning in their lives", really means nothing as far as I am concerned. As you see fit. But if you had the chance to listen to a stream enterer, would you hesitate? S> I believe that Mahasatipatthana is the only practice leading to enlightenment and this is only taught by the Buddha. I wonder if you believe the same. So if we are talking about any particular practice like `anapanasati' or `jhana', I think it is important to know if whether you are of the opinion that these can on their own lead to the realization of the N8FP or even if they support satipatthana in any special way. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn54-013.html This is a pretty big endorsement right here. It is not my opinion but the Buddhas. S> From my point of view, if satipatthana is the *only* right practice, then anything else is not only a distraction but will very likely condition wrong view if seen as leading to the development of sati and panna. So if I were to follow your recommendation to sit and just watch the breath, then I believe that during such times, I will *not* be following the Buddha's teachings, but someone else's. Don't listen to me then. Listen to the Buddha. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn54-013.html S> Now I respond to your post: > S: I hope you are saying this only to draw my attention to > `attachment' and `clinging'. Surely you would not be underestimating the importance > of Teachings would you? In my view in fact, every word uttered by the > Buddha is extremely precious, given that only one Sammabuddha arises > in many aeons. Also isn't it obvious that those who valued his words > most would be those who understood him best, i.e. the arahats, and > therefore if *we* can't appreciate then as much, we should at least > have some sense not to downplay their importance? > >E: Are there really any 'sacred' words? Sukin: No sacred words, but words of wisdom. And these will be understood as per each individual's accumulated panna. OK sure and also further investigated with experience. > S: Recognizing them would require that we understand what they > mean. And if understanding is correct, then panna is accumulated as > sankhara. And when panna does arise, there is a degree of detachment > and no questions such as, "Then what?". > >E: Panna will accumulate if the other 7 path > factors are also in effect, yes? It seems > you are trying to revolve yourself around > views and thought. How do you cultivate > samadhi (i.e. concentration, effort and > mindfulness)? Sukin: Yes, how do you cultivate samadhi? How do we know that samadhi will be right? Jhana? I don't think so! Jhana only knows the difference between kusala and akusala and this kind of understanding has no relationship with the understanding about anatta and conditionality. So how can jhana lead to vipassana? They support each other. S> DO you think that a concentrated mind is better capable of penetrating realities simply by virtue of not being distracted? It helps. Also, if effort and sati is there balanced too. S> Don't you think that the mind (conventionally speaking) has to be trained in such a way that it understands the nature of realities, its conditioned nature, anicca, dukkha and anatta? Sure S> Otherwise a concentrated mind is just a concentrated mind and knows what it has been trained to know, i.e. the object of jhana. This is why satipatthana is the only way and the understanding which leads to this is the developed intellectual understanding about just these conditioned realities. Not sure about that. Here the one factor mentioned is Anapanasati. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn54-013.html S> And you needn't worry about other path factors being developed, because samadhi, viriya, and other factors are being developed by virtue of sati and panna during satipatthana. It is panna or lack of, which determines whether the other 4 or 7 factors are right or wrong. No worries here. > S: Until and unless we have become enlightened, in which case the > sati that has experienced the tilakkhana is so firm that there is no more wrong sanna arising, then we need to be reminded again and > again. Don't you think that avijja arise almost all the time for us > puthujanas? > E: Comes and goes like everything else. Sukin: :-) Good for you, if this is your everyday experience. But in my case this is not so, and I believe the same with most other people. So don't you think we need it? Well maybe it is not a matter of needing more of one thing but maybe less of another or more of another thing entirely. I am not in your shoes so I don't know. > > Eric: Neither, I am more interested in the knowledge > > and vision as things actually are. > > S: Yes, but being interested in direct experience does this mean > that we should not listen any more to the teachings? > > Eric: How many times do you need to read the > instruction manual? Sukin: Perhaps this is the crucial difference! If indeed the Teachings could be reduced to a set of instructions, then all we need to remember are those instructions. And all we need to do and consequently feel that we are following the Teachings, is to follow those instructions. It is almost like the Buddha is saying that here. But that is for each to judge for him or herself. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn54-013.html S> Perhaps this is why many are so happy to be doing formal meditation, a conventional activity, and struggle against the idea that realities including sati and panna arise and fall due to conditions beyond control and has no relationship to any rite or ritual including `sitting'. And as much as one denies this fact about conditionality and sticks to one's formal practice, that much there is going to be the illusion of result mistaking lobha for sati and wrong view for panna. It seems like alot of this gets resolved if you follow the instructions given here. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn54-013.html S> On the other hand, if the Teachings are seen as descriptive, then itmakes sense to carefully study them. And since realities arise and fall inan instant and sati and panna is still undeveloped, then increasingly better intellectual understanding is called for. We may know intellectually what the object of satipatthana ultimately are, however akusala tendencies are strong and it takes time to overcome these andgrow in confidence that "only that which appears in the present moment can be the object of true understanding". Meanwhile the attention always drifts to "stories about realties" hence the need to continue with pariyatti. After all correct pariyatti points to the significance of the presently arisen reality. That is why I like to investigate in terms of the hindrances. What in mind is hindering it? This is clearly seen (for me) while sitting. Less clear in daily life but it has improved. > S: Again it is `panna' which > can state anything meaningful about "knowledge and vision as things > actually are", and this panna I believe will *never* judge as > meaningless, `words descriptive of truth'. It is more likely some > other reality which will say "no" to words of wisdom. But here again you may be trying to point me to `attachment and clinging'? > Eric: I am not interested in statements about truth > but the truth! The truth outside of words! You > see we are caught in a matrix of words. Some of us > feel like that there is a combination of words that will > unlock some secret that is hidden or open up some door > to the real. So, we go round and round in a sea of > samsara of words. Sukin: No, pariyatti is not some magic word. It is a level of panna, a "reality" which you can call anything or not put any label at all. It has a characteristic, function and proximate cause. One of the conditions for this reality to be developed is `reading about' or `hearing' the Teachings, otherwise we would continue to be lead by our wrong views. When Sariputta heard the short phrase about `conditioned dhammas', it was not any magic, but the accumulated panna which was so great that it understood the *meaning*. For us today, the word have to be repeated over and over again and from many different angles and still it is never enough to even condition knowing by direct experience the difference between concept and reality. So we need to listen and consider more and more. Have you experience with this or merely read about this? > S: Not lobha or wrong view for sure, but panna will recognize the > right from wrong. And if we realize that panna is still weak and > self- deception quite likely to happen, should we not try to > determine what the Buddha has said? > Eric: If this is still conditioned by a context of > wrong view, how will a right view arise? Sukin: :-) All I can say is that all other views seem wrong compared, and so far I have yet to come across anyone proving this general understanding as expressed by Nina, Sarah, Jon and others, wrong. And they have never been contradictory to either the Suttas or the commentaries. I would suggest reading the Kalama Sutta and compare to what you have just written. > S: Blind acceptance is no good, but dismissing them based on the > simple reason that they are `second hand' is not necessarily any > better. > When I read the Kalama Sutta about not blindly accepting authority, I > always remember the most notorious of them, namely "me", my own > subjective interpretation. > > Eric: So you have a commentators subjective interpretation > which you are subjectively interpretating and this > is forming the basis or your 'Right View'? Do I > understand you correctly? Sukin: What is said in the Suttas, is expanded upon by the commentators and sub- and sub-sub commentators in such a way that it has always *increased* the understanding. Whether this has been in fact the opposite, namely `increasing any "misunderstanding"', I refer not only to what I stated above, but also to a general attitude towards experiences based on the understanding of their conditioned nature. I would suggest reading the Kalama Sutta and compare to what you have just written. > S: Panna is the leader and when it arises during a moment of > satipatthana, then the other factors are also present and being > developed. There is no development of individual path factors without > the rest of them. Hence it is a BIG mistake to identify `right > effort' and `right concentration' for example, with any conventional > practice. If one `exerts' and `concentrates' with akusala mental > factors, then no `rights' are being developed. > Eric: Of course, that is why the proof is in the > pudding. To be able to create wholesome states > of mind at will means you are practicing > correctly with all the other path factors > in alignment. How do you know this occurs? > When there are no hindrances to be found in > awareness. Sukin: Or this may be the illusion of result I talked about earlier. But hard to prove, so let us perhaps just drop this. But see this is a good test IMHO. How can we know if the hindrances are present? I mean who is going to tell us? This is why sitting for a good amount of time is helpful. If the hindrances are present, they are magnified. S> However, do you agree that it is more important to consider the "causes" than be concerned about any "results"? I would say to really consider the causes we have to see where they lead. Otherwise it is just speculation. S> Would not the right cause lead to the right result and the wrong to the wrong? The only way to tell is by investigation and experience. S> If so, in what way is `concentration on the breath' a condition for sati and panna, starting from the beginner's level? Sounds like you have been listening to Jon. But here listen to the Buddha. Don't listen to Jon or me. Here he does not talk about levels, or skill but factors. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn54-013.html > S: But the view that I need to concentrate on it in order to reach > liberation will. ;-) > > Eric: How do you develope concentration, > effort and sati in your practice? > How do you try and develope Right > Concentration i.e. jhana? Sukin: "I" don't. But I do appreciate the possibility and necessicty of `sati' being developed, however I think the idea of `developing concentration' as means to reach the N8FP is wrong! It is a part of the N8FP. Otherwise you are not practicing the Buddhas way. Right Concentration is defined as Jhana. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/samma-samadhi.html Metta, Sukin. Indeed PEACE & Metta, E 35863 From: Date: Sun Aug 29, 2004 5:38pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Cooran 13-15 August, 2004/KenH Hi, Ken - Thank you. I'm very pleased that you were not offended. That doesn't make my post any the nicer, of course, but I'm happy it did no harm, and I thank you for your kind reception. With metta, Howard In a message dated 8/29/04 4:39:52 PM Eastern Daylight Time, kenhowardau@y... writes: > > Hi Howard, > > You wrote to apologise for your "arrogant tone and flippant words" > in an earlier message. Rest assured no offence was taken. I am sure > the tone and words appeared worse to you, on re-reading, than they > ever did to me and other readers. > > The same thing happens to me all too often: what seems at the time > of writing to be 'a forthright style but with obvious good > intentions,' appears later to be an arrogant style with flippant > intentions. :-) > > I began drafting a reply immediately after your first message but > got sidetracked with a message to James. And then there were those > excellent questions from Andrew L which kept me occupied for quite a > while. I see Nina has posted to that thread: it will be good to see > her answers. Mine had quite a few gaps in them. :-) > > Back to the drawing board: I have to finish my reply to you and one > to James. > > Kind regards, > Ken H > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 35864 From: kenhowardau Date: Sun Aug 29, 2004 10:54pm Subject: Re: Cooran 13-15 August, 2004 Hi James, You wrote: ----------------- > I am not sure where you got this type of mental dialogue, but I also don't think that a running, mental commentary of every activity is what the Buddha intended by mindfulness immersed in the body. The Buddha explains what he means, in part: "Furthermore, when walking, the monk discerns that he is walking. When standing, he discerns that he is standing. When sitting, he discerns that he is sitting. When lying down, he discerns that he is lying down. Or however his body is disposed, that is how he discerns it. And as he remains thus heedful, ardent, & resolute, any memories & resolves related to the household life are abandoned, and with their abandoning his mind gathers & settles inwardly, grows unified & centered. This is how a monk develops mindfulness immersed in the body. .." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/majjhima/mn119.html ----------------- KH: These are the much-quoted lines on which so many people base their formal Buddhist practices. Taken in isolation, they paint a picture entirely different from the rest of the Tipitaka. That is, they seem to go against the doctrine of conditionality according to which our world is just mental and physical phenomena arising, conditioning other phenomena and passing away. Some people question the efficacy of studying phenomena. They say it is impossible to countenance a reality in which there is no `you and me' - no entities that persist from the past to the future. They think our conventional world would fall into chaos if we were to know it in that ultimate way. But it doesn't. Even for an arahant, consciousness of conceptual reality is intermingled with consciousness of absolute reality. And so a bhikkhu who spends his daily life practising satipatthana continues to function in the normal manner. When he is walking, he sees the world as fleeting, unsatisfactory, selfless nama and rupa, but that does not cause him to fall down or to step in front of a bus. He is still perfectly aware, "I am walking." The same goes for the other postures and for all the daily activities including "eating, talking, defecating and so on." Life goes on. It is a terrible shame that those lines are misquoted to give a false impression of Buddhist practice. From the earliest times, it was made clear that they did not describe actual moments of satipatthana. In the Ancient Commentaries, there is a record of the advice senior monks were giving to anyone who was unsure about the Satipatthana Sutta. They state, "When he is going a bhikkhu understands: 'I am going.'" In this matter of going, readily do dogs, jackals and the like, know when they move on that they are moving. But this instruction on the modes of deportment was not given concerning similar awareness, because awareness of that sort belonging to animals does not shed the belief in a living being, does not knock out the percept of a soul, and neither becomes a subject of meditation nor the development of the Arousing of Mindfulness." (end quote) And so the crucial distinction we need to make is between moments of experiencing dhammas and moments of experiencing concepts. Even though they are intermingled, just billionths of a second apart, it is only the former, never the latter, in which satipatthana can occur. Kind regards, Ken H 35865 From: buddhatrue Date: Mon Aug 30, 2004 1:59am Subject: Re: Cooran 13-15 August, 2004 Friend Ken H, Ken: These are the much-quoted lines on which so many people base their formal Buddhist practices. James: Well, that makes sense because these lines are where the Buddha specifically describes the practice. At other times he describes the philosophy of the dhamma, here he describes the practice. People should base their practice on where the Buddha describes the practice, not on where he describes the philosophy. Ken: Taken in isolation, they paint a picture entirely different from the rest of the Tipitaka. That is, they seem to go against the doctrine of conditionality according to which our world is just mental and physical phenomena arising, conditioning other phenomena and passing away. James: I don't believe that there is a contradiction; I believe that you are creating a contradiction. I believe that you are confusing the practice of Buddhism with the philosophy of Buddhism. The Buddha meant exactly what he said here; there is nothing ambiguous about it. Ken, now what you have failed to describe is, if you think that people are misinterpreting the Buddha here, what do you think the Buddha really meant? And I don't want to read a pie in the sky philosophy, I mean what did he really mean? Ken: And so a bhikkhu who spends his daily life practising satipatthana continues to function in the normal manner. When he is walking, he sees the world as fleeting, unsatisfactory, selfless nama and rupa, but that does not cause him to fall down or to step in front of a bus. He is still perfectly aware, "I am walking." The same goes for the other postures and for all the daily activities including "eating, talking, defecating and so on." Life goes on. James: Huh? What exactly are you saying here? To me, it seems like you are saying that what the Buddha described isn't really a practice at all. That perhaps the Buddha was just stating the obvious? Why would the Buddha give several suttas to just state the obvious? Wouldn't that be a waste of everyone's time? Ken: In the Ancient Commentaries, there is a record of the advice senior monks were giving to anyone who was unsure about the Satipatthana Sutta. They state, "When he is going a bhikkhu understands: 'I am going.'" In this matter of going, readily do dogs, jackals and the like, know when they move on that they are moving. But this instruction on the modes of deportment was not given concerning similar awareness, because awareness of that sort belonging to animals does not shed the belief in a living being, does not knock out the percept of a soul, and neither becomes a subject of meditation nor the development of the Arousing of Mindfulness." (end quote) James: Now, it may seem presumptuous for me to say this, but I don't agree with this commentary. It is basically saying, "Dogs do it, jackals do it, and monks do it. Mindfulness of walking, nothing special there!" First of all, dogs and jackals are not mindful of their walking! It is unintelligent to say such a thing! They are concentrating on finding something to eat, finding shelter, traveling with the pack, looking for sex, etc., they are not really aware of their walking. People can choose to be aware of their walking or not, but dogs and jackals cannot. This is why people can become enlightened and dogs and jackals cannot. Ken, are you seeing the big picture here? Ken: And so the crucial distinction we need to make is between moments of experiencing dhammas and moments of experiencing concepts. Even though they are intermingled, just billionths of a second apart, it is only the former, never the latter, in which satipatthana can occur. James: If this was true the Buddha would have said so. Thankfully he didn't because I believe that such a practice is impossible and fruitless. Metta, James 35866 From: jwromeijn Date: Mon Aug 30, 2004 2:23am Subject: Re: Bill against religious conversion Hallo Christine Some questions to you (or: about your messages) A week ago you reacted to my mentioning the site of Bhikkhu Sujata: "But most interesting of all (for me), is the article "Full Acceptance" regarding the issue of ordination for women. I wasn't previously aware of this community or its website. Thank you." I don't know why (technical problem) but I couldn't download this file. So it interests me why it did interest you: intellectual curiosity or do you want to get ordained? This without knowing exactly what was the opinion of the Bhikkhu. This week you posted a reference to an article by Kingsley Heendeniya entitled "On Understanding Namarupa" I liked it; firstly because my idea that nama-rupa is not the same as the (western) mind-matter dichotomy; and secondly because of the relation rupa-dukkha. What was your opinion about the discussion between RobM and me about the importance of understanding rupa ? And now you posted about "Controversial Sri Lanka bill against religious conversion gets court nod" and wrote "Time will tell whether this is a skillful move or not, I suppose". This winter I visited Sri Lanka and I did read much about the relation buddhism - politics in this country. It made me sad, the illusion that a buddhistic country can be more peaceful than another one didn't seem correct. I wanted to be a pilgrim but in fact I was a tourist in my three weeks stay, my general impression was that Srilankan people were not very "spiritual". Now I know more than ever: there don't exist (buddhistic) paradises on earth: not in Tibet, not in Ladakh, not in (the virtual) Shangri La, not in Sri Lanka, and not in the Netherlands: that's all romantic ideas in our (western) heads. I don't like (american) christian missionaries but this bill is not skillful, I think. My general question to you is: why do you poste this messages, as a kind of journalist to give us information, in the hope it will start a interesting thread? Or because it are topics the really and deeply worry you without knowing what can be your opinion and what to do with it? Your motto is "The trouble is that you think you have time". In fact I do think that; I refuse to hurry anymore in my life, not in my career (ex-career because I retired voluntary) and not in my spiritual life. I think about the possibility that I die before I got enlightened: the path is important, not the result.And you? Metta Joop 35867 From: christine_forsyth Date: Mon Aug 30, 2004 4:20am Subject: Re: Bill against religious conversion Hello Joop, Why does anyone post Joop? To communicate with others, to share interests, to make contact. I occasionally post articles that I have come across that catch my interest, and I think others may be interested also. If people wish to discuss any part of them, that is O.K. If people have no thoughts about them, that is O.K. also. The website of Bhikkhu Sujata is of interest for two reasons - firstly, like some other members of dsg, I live in Australia, and wasn't aware that western teaching Bhikkhus were active here. Secondly - the article about Full Acceptance was interesting because, a couple of years ago, there was a full and frank discussion about the Restoration of the Bhikkhuni Sangha on this list. The majority/orthodox opinion was - and still is - that it is a lost cause, an impossibility. Discussion dwindled down, and there seemed little support for equal/alternate opportunities for women's spiritual practice. However, developments over the last year or two in Sri Lanka and Thailand, seemed to be showing that there is hope. It is the Forest Monks who are most sympathetic to this restoration, and it is heartening to see some on the East Coast of Australia. Ajahn Brahmavamso and his Sangha are also supportive, and indeed have 10 Precept Nuns at the Dhammasara Nuns' Monastery. This is on the other side of the continent, in Perth. Have you tried to get to the article on Full Acceptance by going in through the main page and clicking on Writings and scrolling down? http://www.santiforestmonastery.com/home.htm Am I considering ordination for myself? - circumstances put it out of the question. But I believe a supported spiritual life should be available to both males and females. Joop, I didn't read the thread in which you and RobM discussed the importance of understanding rupa. The article about anti-religious conversion bill was posted because similar sentiments have been strongly expressed on another list where some dsg-ers are also members - only the discussion there was concerning the incursions of Christian missionaries in Thailand. Some of us on this list visited Sri Lanka a couple of years ago, Myanmar last year, and visit Thailand a couple of times each year. What happens in these countries, to these peoples and to Buddhism generally is of great interest. My memories of Sri Lanka are a little different to yours - some members of this List live there and we had contact and discussions with them. They were enthusiastic and committed Buddhists. We went on an organised pilgrimage with many Thai friends, under the leadership of Khun Sujin. There were stimulating daily Dhamma discussions. My impressions are in this post: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/13833 Joop says:"My general question to you is: why do you poste this messages, as a kind of journalist to give us information, in the hope it will start a interesting thread? CJF says: A bit of both. Joop says: Your motto is "The trouble is that you think you have time". In fact I do think that; I refuse to hurry anymore in my life, not in my career (ex-career because I retired voluntary) and not in my spiritual life. I think about the possibility that I die before I got enlightened: the path is important, not the result.And you?" CJFsays: I think one can never over emphasise the fragility of life, and there is a need to remember that the Buddha taught the dangers of rebirth. That very very few are reborn in human form, or in the dispensation of a buddha when the teachings are available. The quote I add after my signature "The trouble is that you think you have time" is part of my daily reminder to myself about my ever approaching death. Especially, to try to have a sense that it could be at any moment. People assume that they'll live to the extreme of old age for their nationality - usually they think it will be in their 80's, 90's or older. We all know intellectually that we will die one day - but we always push it into the future. When I have contact with patients who have been told they have a terminal illness, whether they are 20 years old or 92 years old they always say things like - "I know I have to die one day, but I didn't think it would be for ( insert number of years). Or they say, "I know I have to die one day, but I need to do (insert task) first." My signature quote is a short paraphrase of the message in suttas below - I think I read it in a book by Jack Kornfield once. From 'The Archer' SN XX.6 "Faster than the speed of that man, faster than the speed of the sun & moon, faster than the speed of the devas who rush ahead of the sun & moon, the force of one's life span comes to an end. Thus you should train yourselves: 'We will live heedfully.' That's how you should train yourselves." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn20-006.html From 'The Simile of the Mountains' SN III.25 "Like massive boulders, mountains pressing against the sky, moving in from all sides, crushing the four directions, so aging and death come rolling over living beings: noble warriors, priests, merchants, workers, outcastes, & scavengers. They spare nothing. They trample everything. >>snip<< So a wise person, seeing his own good, steadfast, secures confidence in the Buddha, Dhamma, & Sangha. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn03-025.html metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jwromeijn" 35868 From: Htoo Naing Date: Mon Aug 30, 2004 5:35am Subject: Patthana Dhamma Page 40 by Htoo Dear Dhamma Friends, After a long pause because of my tight schedules, here arises another page on discussion of patthana dhamma. The page can be found at this link http://www.geocities.com/htootintnaing/patthana40.html . Most of the time I did not check for proof reading as I did not have enough time, which actually should not have been as that. I was expecting anyone giving comment on these discussions including any wrong contents or any grammatical errors or any spelling errors. For those who want to read from the very early post can view the introductory page and then he or she will be led by the pages themselves if he or she want to continue to read. The introductory page can be viewed at this link http://www.geocities.com/htootintnaing/patthana1.html May you be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 35869 From: agriosinski Date: Mon Aug 30, 2004 6:23am Subject: Re: Scope and Focus (About Rupa) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" wrote: [...] > > I am going to take the position that early Buddhism does not have an > ontological focus. I am trying out this somewhat extreme position to > see where it leads; I am very willing to abandon this position if I > can find textual support. Hi Rob, Ken H and Howard, I don't think Rob will have to change his opinion, since early buddhism does not know "universal" reality. Seems, like rupas experience (namarupa) and not existence (rupa) is postulated by Buddha. But I am new to the buddhism and would like to know if there is rupa without vinnana proposed anywhere in early suttas. metta, Agrios 35870 From: Date: Mon Aug 30, 2004 3:15am Subject: Re: [dsg]Path of Discrimination. Hi again, Nina - In a message dated 8/29/04 11:13:12 AM Eastern Daylight Time, upasaka@a... writes: > With regard to the PTSMBDMGA , from time to time I come back to it > with the intention of pushing my way through, but the parchment-dry style, > especially in early sections, always serevs as a great obstacle. I promise > to go > back to it! This time, I'll try to go very slowly so that I don't skip over > any > gems in the roadway. > =============================== I've taken out my copy of the work for another "try". I've refreshed my memory of what was so unappealing previously. It is mainly the first two "treatises," the treatise on knowledge and the treatise on views, constituting at least a third of the work. Whether it is the translation or not I don't know, but, as they stand, in English, I find them entirely without value. The speech is nearly incomprehensible, conveying close to no content, neither consisting of coherent, Abhidhamma-like lists nor informative discourse. It is almost gibberish. I could write out sections of it so everyone could see, but I frankly don't see the point. (If you or anyone else strongly thinks I *should* send brief samples, I will do so.) Previously, at this point I just skimmed through other sections and then gave up. But in looking the work over, I can see that the material after the 1st two treatises seems to be way better - and so I'm going to push on, studying that remainder. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 35871 From: Date: Mon Aug 30, 2004 3:36am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Cooran 13-15 August, 2004 Hi, Ken (and James) - In a message dated 8/30/04 1:56:35 AM Eastern Daylight Time, kenhowardau@y... writes: > > Hi James, > > You wrote: > ----------------- > >I am not sure where you got this type of mental dialogue, but > I also don't think that a running, mental commentary of every > activity is what the Buddha intended by mindfulness immersed in the > body. The Buddha explains what he means, in part: > > "Furthermore, when walking, the monk discerns that he is walking. > When standing, he discerns that he is standing. When sitting, he > discerns that he is sitting. When lying down, he discerns that he is > lying down. Or however his body is disposed, that is how he discerns > it. And as he remains thus heedful, ardent, &resolute, any memories > &resolves related to the household life are abandoned, and with > their abandoning his mind gathers &settles inwardly, grows unified > ¢ered. This is how a monk develops mindfulness immersed in the > body. .." > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/majjhima/mn119.html > ----------------- > > KH: These are the much-quoted lines on which so many people base > their formal Buddhist practices. Taken in isolation, they paint a > picture entirely different from the rest of the Tipitaka. That is, > they seem to go against the doctrine of conditionality according to > which our world is just mental and physical phenomena arising, > conditioning other phenomena and passing away. > > Some people question the efficacy of studying phenomena. They say it > is impossible to countenance a reality in which there is no `you and > me' - no entities that persist from the past to the future. They > think our conventional world would fall into chaos if we were to > know it in that ultimate way. But it doesn't. Even for an arahant, > consciousness of conceptual reality is intermingled with > consciousness of absolute reality. > > And so a bhikkhu who spends his daily life practising satipatthana > continues to function in the normal manner. When he is walking, he > sees the world as fleeting, unsatisfactory, selfless nama and rupa, > but that does not cause him to fall down or to step in front of a > bus. He is still perfectly aware, "I am walking." The same goes for > the other postures and for all the daily activities > including "eating, talking, defecating and so on." Life goes on. > > It is a terrible shame that those lines are misquoted to give a > false impression of Buddhist practice. From the earliest times, it > was made clear that they did not describe actual moments of > satipatthana. In the Ancient Commentaries, there is a record of the > advice senior monks were giving to anyone who was unsure about the > Satipatthana Sutta. They state, "When he is going a bhikkhu > understands: 'I am going.'" In this matter of going, readily do > dogs, jackals and the like, know when they move on that they are > moving. But this instruction on the modes of deportment was not > given concerning similar awareness, because awareness of that sort > belonging to animals does not shed the belief in a living being, > does not knock out the percept of a soul, and neither becomes a > subject of meditation nor the development of the Arousing of > Mindfulness." (end quote) > > And so the crucial distinction we need to make is between moments of > experiencing dhammas and moments of experiencing concepts. Even > though they are intermingled, just billionths of a second apart, it > is only the former, never the latter, in which satipatthana can > occur. > > Kind regards, > Ken H > ============================= Ken, I see no disparity at all between what the Buddha instructed and what the "Ancient Commentaries" say on this matter. When one turns one attention (that is, using more literal speech, "when attention is turned") in a sustained, focussed, and clear way to the content of experience, concentration, mindfulness, clarity of attention, and fineness of vision grow, and wisdom arises so that phenomena come to be seen as they are: impermanent, insubstantial, interdependent, lawfully arising and ceasing, unworthy (and incapable) of being grasped, and very much impersonal - in short, empty. However, without the powerful expenditure of needed effort and energy, seeing is no better than that of the dogs and jackals referred to. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 35872 From: Date: Mon Aug 30, 2004 7:05am Subject: Re: [dsg]Path of Discrimination. In a message dated 8/30/2004 7:31:45 AM Pacific Standard Time, upasaka@a... writes: I've taken out my copy of the work for another "try". I've refreshed my memory of what was so unappealing previously. It is mainly the first two "treatises," the treatise on knowledge and the treatise on views, constituting at least a third of the work. Whether it is the translation or not I don't know, but, as they stand, in English, I find them entirely without value. The speech is nearly incomprehensible, conveying close to no content, neither consisting of coherent, Abhidhamma-like lists nor informative discourse. It is almost gibberish. I could write out sections of it so everyone could see, but I frankly don't see the point. (If you or anyone else strongly thinks I *should* send brief samples, I will do so.) Previously, at this point I just skimmed through other sections and then gave up. But in looking the work over, I can see that the material after the 1st two treatises seems to be way better - and so I'm going to push on, studying that remainder. With metta, Howard Hi Howard For my money, the Path of Discrimination is the most valuable text outside of the Four Great Nikayas. I think every bit of it is full of crucial issues, though it certainly is dry/terse reading that requires a lot of concentration to collate its meaning to the Suttas. I've read it about 10 times and its always a hard read and not really worth reading unless the mind is very focussed. The first two chapters are as good in quality as any of it ... if not better. I recommend studying the whole thing. One importatnt note... Nanamoli was experimenting with translating "Dhamma" as "Idea" and to me, this confuses 99% of those instances where "idea" is used. I recommend substituting the term "state" in lieu of "idea." TG 35873 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Aug 30, 2004 11:12am Subject: Re: [dsg] seeing and seeking benefits Hello Phil, I did not intend to respond but it just so happens. I like your sympathetic posts. op 29-08-2004 00:44 schreef plnao op plnao@j...: > Ph: This is very interesting. Kusala has many necessary conditions. When > the opportunity arises for kusala, when there is opportunity for kusala, we > must not hesitate. In Japanese there is a proverb "Zen wa isoge" which is > literally "goodness hurries." (The Zen means goodness, not Buddhist Zen). > This is our "strike while the iron is hot." Maybe this has something to do > with samvega, that sense of spiritual urgency, or with virya, energy. N:Thank you for the reminder. Yes, a sense of urgency, fire on our heads as you also said before. Ph: As always I am uncertain about sati, because in some of your writing it is > described as a very, very rare thing and elsewhere we read that it > accompanies all kusala cittas. (If I'm not mistaken.) There are different > levels of sati. I am not worried about figuring this out because the > understanding will arise or not arise do to conditions. N: Sati is non-forgetful of kusala, it does not waste the opportunities for kusala. There are different levels of kusala and evenso also of sati: dana, sila, samatha, vipassana. it has to arise with each kusala citta, the citta needs sati and many other sobhana cetasikas. Sati of satipatthana is rare when we are in the stage of pariyatti. It begins, when we consider nama and rupa and verify in our life what we heard. Someone asked A. Sujin a method for satipatthana and she said, study, but not only study, also verify the truth, and that is a beginning of practice. Ph: Everything is still too intelletual for me. > Will I soon see a more direct approach to daily experience arising? I read K > Sujin on the "duty of the beginner" in your Perfections. (Chapter on > Renunciation) : "The beginner begins to develop right awareness of the > object which appears, that is the duty of the beginner." "Duty" is a bit of > a dangerous word, because it suggests something we do because we are told > to, or intentionally because we think we should and surely this "beginning > to develop right awareness of the object" can only arise due to conditions > coming together. N: You see it rightly. I just now heard about the task: Ph: The pearls in > the lightning flash is a good reminder not to press hard for results, > because it will take countless lives to develop the wisdom that eradicates > the defilements. N: As you say not to press hard, and on the other hand: use the opportunity now to develop understanding, it is so rare. Nina. 35874 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Aug 30, 2004 11:12am Subject: Re: [dsg] wisdom as a path factor? Hello Phil, op 30-08-2004 02:54 schreef plnao op plnao@j...: > This morning reading Nina's "Perfections" came across this: "The > commentary to the Cariyapitaka states that panna is the chief cause for the > development of the other perfections, that it perfects them all." > This brought a question to mind : why isn't right wisdom a path factor? > It seems to me that it would be. N: Yes it is, under the name of right view, samma-ditthi. Nina. 35875 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Aug 30, 2004 11:12am Subject: Re: [dsg] determining citta vs sanna? Hello Phil, op 30-08-2004 01:34 schreef plnao op plnao@j...: > > What is the difference between the determining citta which arises in the > sense-door process and sanna which is a universal cetasika and comprises one > of the aggregates? It seems to me they can both be described as perception. > Do they work together to serve the same function? N: Sañña arises with every citta, thus also with determining citta. Sañña just marks the object from moment to moment, in sensedoor process and in mind-door process. It does not do anything specific when it accompanies determining citta. Ph: Oh, another question. I think I have read that the object isn't labeled > until the sense door process has fallen away and the mind-door process has > arisen. During the sense-door process an object is just an object. N: Evenso sañña marks it. PH: During the > following mind-door process, it is understood as a pencil or whatever. N: Not yet. It is still visible object through the mind-door. If > that is so, what does this sense-door determining citta do? N: Just determining, votthapana, the object. It does not see (in the case of the eye-door process), but it still experiences visible object. Sañña is not doing anything special. PH: In the mango > tree simile Rob has provided, the determining citta "understands that this > is a mango fruit with certain qualities." Am I mistaken in understanding > that the object is just an object during the sense-door process? The Expositor uses the simile of the mango tree. But, as the Tiika explained, the functions of receiving and examining (santirana) are not very outspoken. Expositor, p. 360: he takes the mango and sqeezes it. He examines it. Then he smells it, determining. It is only a simile, as far as that goes. Just before the javanas: votthapana, determining, only one moment. It is because of accumulations whether kusala or akusala will follow, no time to decide anything. Nina. 35876 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Aug 30, 2004 11:12am Subject: Re: [dsg] cita and cetasikas Hi AL, op 29-08-2004 01:30 schreef Andrew Levin op andrewlevin@e...: > >> AL What is the citta that can experience nibbana before the supramundane >>> planes are acheived? Is it lokutarra citta? >> N: In the process during which enlightenment is experienced there arises >> before the magga-citta which is the first lokuttaracitta, a citta > that is >> still lokiya, called change of lineage, gotrabhu. This is not > lokuttara but >> evenso it experiences nibbana. It does not eradicate defilements. > AL: No, I am yet talking about a citta that experiences nibbana prior to a > stage of enlightenment. To clarify, let me quote Bhante G.'s "Eight > Mindful Steps to Happiness." (snipped). > > It seems almost trivial to ask what citta this is because it's so rare > and seemingly inconsequential, but it is a worthwhile phenomenon to > note, that nibbana can be experienced before stages of enlightenment. N: It is a long development stage by stage of vipassana pañña. Gradually pañña turns away from the conditioned realities of this world and inclines towards the unconditioned, nibbana. How could that be achieved before pañña has developed so far? Not a person can do this and decide: I want to experience nibbana. It is just the development of pañña, nothing else. >> AL: Going back to what I know and tying this in with Mindfulness of >>> feelings, is it possible to root out the lobha or moha (attachment or >>> aversion) in a citta accompanied by a pleasant or painful feeling at a >>> given sense door?> ..... > I'm going to let this point go because I can't find the sutta I was > thinking of in the Majjhima Nikaya, but it was something along the > lines of: "That liberation can be attained by subduing the underlying > tendency towards greed in the plesant feeling, the underlying tendency > towards aversion in the unplesant feeling, and the underlying tendency > towards [delusion|ignorance] in the neutral feeling, this is possible. > That liberation can be attained [without reducing underlying > tendencies], this is impossible." > So I wonder if we are able to reduce greed, hatred, and delusion > through mindfulness of feelings. N: Through right understanding of whatever reality appears now, be it rupa, feeling, citta or any other dhamma. Only the lokuttara citta can eradicate underlying tendencies. Nina. 35877 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Aug 30, 2004 11:12am Subject: Re: [dsg]Path of Discrimination. Hi Howard, op 29-08-2004 17:09 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: >> N: According to tradition, composed by Sariputta. Also rehearsed at the >> first Council, like the oldest commentaries that Buddhaghosa found in the >> Mahaavihaara. > > ------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Well, of course, we don't really know whether either of these > traditional assumptions are true. It wouldn't surprise me if at least some of > it were > given by Sariputta, who is also strongly associated with the Abhidhamma. To > me, much of it sounds like something composed by a committee of academics - > which, despite my background, or perhaps because of it, isn't great praise. > ;-) I > don't find this work to constitute pleasant reading! N: I have read part of the preface by Warder. I am suspicious about his statements. It seems that quite a few people like to repeat each other without really diving into the texts themselves. They say: it looks like Abhidhamma thus it must be of later date. To me it is meaningful that it is part of the Khuddaka Nikaya, but some people like to explain away all scriptures except the four Nikayas. I leave them. More important are the contents. Do not expect to read it like a novel. Material like this and also the Abhidhamma has to be *lived*. It is no theory and has to be verified in life. I had this book in my bookcase for a long time, but then I followed A. Sujin's radio talks on it and it came to life. The whole book is about the development of understanding, as Num also stressed. Take the text on siila, p. 43. This has to be read together with the Vis. Ch 1. All the different aspects of sila. It is helpful to have the Visuddhimagga as background. Sutta maya ñaa.na, this is understanding based on listening. But there should also be practice: siila maya ñaa.na, understanding based on the practice of sila. Sila and understanding together. Sila (here transl as virtue) that has the limits of gain, fame, relatives, etc. We read this and then we should consider: influenced by relatives one may transgress sila. Each point is worth considering. That is the way to read this text. When you see, yes, this is true, it is no longer dry. It depends on the reader. The beauty lies in the truth. From where does sila originate: kusala citta, akusala citta, kiriyacitta. Here sila is our action and speech that can be kusala or akusala. citta is the source. We have to consider this text, not just read. Also sila that is kiriya, because it is not only restraint, but it goes up to the highest degree. Sila leads to non-remorse, gladness, happiness, tranquillity, etc. (p. 47) well worth considering! Howard: Well, what I had in mind was the following: First of all, the style, > due I suppose to poor translation, is very stilted and uninspired. Besides > that, there is a lot of quoting of suttas, but no presentation of previously > unheard suttas, which makes it different from any books of the Sutta Pitaka. N: To me this shows the unity with the Suttanta. H: It is > very commentarial in form, however not formally so in that it doesn't consist > of a series of commentaries on specific suttas. N: Yes, like the Maha Niddesa I have in Thai, no English of it exists. I find so many treasures in it. For example on conceit, so many kinds, also when we do not compare with others. Even about the desirable and undesirable worldly conditions we can have conceit; my important person has to have such vipaka. Helpful for the development of understanding, and that is the only thing I am interested at. I take to it when it helps me in daily life. H:... the discussion > of > sabhava, which basically speaks against the notion. It is that, BTW, which > suggests to me a late development, a countervailing move to what some, > especially proto-Mahayanists, might have considered a substantialist > inclination. N: I feel very lukewarm about any discussion on sabhaava or the history of it. In the Patis. it is in the voidness part, suññatta. I like this part also. I do not seek so much behind this term, but people at that time perhaps did, and also nowadays. I cannot get excited about it. H: > With regard to the PTSMBDMGA , from time to time I come back to it > with the intention of pushing my way through, but the parchment-dry style, > especially in early sections, always serevs as a great obstacle. I promise to > go > back to it! This time, I'll try to go very slowly so that I don't skip over > any > gems in the roadway. N: I like to help people to find gems, but they must be patient and read just a few lines at a time, so that it is beneficial for understanding realities ! Nina. 35878 From: Date: Mon Aug 30, 2004 7:38am Subject: Re: [dsg]Path of Discrimination. Hi, TG - In a message dated 8/30/04 2:08:22 PM Eastern Daylight Time, TGrand458@a... writes: > For my money, the Path of Discrimination is the most valuable text outside > of > the Four Great Nikayas. I think every bit of it is full of crucial issues, > though it certainly is dry/terse reading that requires a lot of > concentration > to collate its meaning to the Suttas. I've read it about 10 times and its > always a hard read and not really worth reading unless the mind is very > focussed. > The first two chapters are as good in quality as any of it ... if not > better. > I recommend studying the whole thing. One importatnt note... Nanamoli was > experimenting with translating "Dhamma" as "Idea" and to me, this confuses > 99% > of those instances where "idea" is used. I recommend substituting the term > "state" in lieu of "idea." > > TG > ============================ Thank you so much for this! You have encouraged me to stick with the 1st two treatises for quite a bit longer. I guess I'm being precipitous in my evaluation - perhaps just being put off by the stilted language. BTW, I agree that rendering 'dhamma' as "idea" is terrible. Sometimes "phenomenon" would work, sometimes "state," but probably best to just leave it as "dhamma". I'm going to do my best to get by the language in the first two treatises, and to get to "see" what you have "seen". With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 35879 From: Date: Mon Aug 30, 2004 8:21am Subject: Re: [dsg]Path of Discrimination. Hi, Nina - In a message dated 8/30/04 2:13:29 PM Eastern Daylight Time, nilo@e... writes: > H: > >With regard to the PTSMBDMGA , from time to time I come back to it > >with the intention of pushing my way through, but the parchment-dry style, > >especially in early sections, always serevs as a great obstacle. I promise > to > >go > >back to it! This time, I'll try to go very slowly so that I don't skip over > >any > >gems in the roadway. > N: I like to help people to find gems, but they must be patient and read > just a few lines at a time, so that it is beneficial for understanding > realities ! > =========================== I'm going to keep on plugging away. Despite being initially "turned off" by the first two treatises, I will persist with them, due in part to TG's strong recommendation, as well as yours of course. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 35880 From: ericlonline Date: Mon Aug 30, 2004 3:49pm Subject: Hearing the Dhamma Hey All, There has been much talk and importance given on this list to 'hearing the dhamma'. Where does 'hearing the dhamma' fit in with the Buddha's overall teaching? Check out the Upanisa Sutta. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/wheels/wheel277.html 'Hearing the Dhamma' and faith are very preliminary steps in the Upanisa Sutta. That is if this Sutta is a linear progression thru time. Maybe we go thru multiple cycles depending on which theme we are investigating in regards to the teachings. But then again maybe not. But notice after Joy, at least the next 4 steps in the sequence are all directly related, by Bhikkhu Bodhi, to 'meditation'. If we are not cultivating a 'meditative' mind, informally or formally, one does not ever reach the 'Knowledge and vision of things as they are (yathabhutañanadassana)'. So, it is clear to me at least, that the knowledge and vision of things as they are is not a speculative, intellectually based knowledge. That sort of low grade more gross knowledge is suitable for the steps of faith and joy. Also noteworthy is that Ven. Bodhi says if there is no jhana, there is no 'Knowledge and vision of things as they are (yathabhutañanadassana)' and thus no vipassana bhavana. So, if that is true, then what are all the 'insight' only meditators doing? And what are all the Buddhists who don't 'practice' meditation doing? Hopefully working on their faith & joy! Looking forward to some insightful comments. PEACE E 35881 From: christine_forsyth Date: Mon Aug 30, 2004 4:42pm Subject: Re: Hearing the Dhamma Hello Eric, all, The emphasis on Hearing the True Dhamma on this list follows from what the Buddha taught were the factors of Stream Entry. If one believes in rebirth then one knows how extremely rare human birth is. And that even if one is fortunate enough to obtain a human rebirth, it is much rarer still for the teachings of a Buddha to be available at that time. Samsara is endless. Liberation as taught by the Buddha, involves attaining four stages of Holiness - the first, the one that ensures no further rebirths in the woeful planes - is that of Sotapanna. Then the being is said to have 'entered the Stream' which will carry to 'unbinding' in no more than seven further rebirths. Until one has attained Stream Entry there is no place of assured safety from the worst dangers of rebirth. The Sotaapattisa.myutta has 74 suttas in 'Connected Discourses on Stream-Entry'. The four factors of Stream Entry are: 1.Association with superior persons 2. Hearing the true Dhamma 3. Careful attention, and 4. Practice in accordance with the Dhamma. SN 55:6 Have you read Bhikkhu Bodhi's "The Jhânas and the Lay Disciple According to the Pâli Suttas"? http://www.saigon.com/~anson/ebud/ebdha267.htm metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "ericlonline" 35882 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Aug 30, 2004 9:26pm Subject: Re: [dsg]Path of Discrimination. Hi Howard, I can understand how you feel about the text. I appreciate it that you tried again. But it is best to read what interests you. Actualities are: the four noble truths. Idea is dhamma as TG said. The first treatises are great! But we also have to turn to the quotes. Dassutara. This takes quite some study. And the Vibhanga. I would like to help with the text a few words at a time, but I must add that I still have a few more postings on the Distracting Thoughts and Co. I want to finish that first, before I get all lost in my work. Besides, there is always my tiika. But perhaps TG is willing to help. Nina. op 30-08-2004 16:15 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: > I've taken out my copy of the work for another "try". I've refreshed > my memory of what was so unappealing previously. It is mainly the first two > "treatises," the treatise on knowledge and the treatise on views, constituting > at > least a third of the work. Whether it is the translation or not I don't know, > but, as they stand, in English, I find them entirely without value. 35883 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Aug 30, 2004 9:26pm Subject: Re: Tiika Vis. XIV, 93 Htoo. Dear Htoo. I am glad about that. His Burmese text is a good check for me. I am very interested, perhaps you can ask him about his source. I do not know in what other languages the Tiika is translated. Nina. op 30-08-2004 12:58 schreef Htoo Naing op htootintnaing@y...: One of Venerable sent me original Pali and explanation in Burmese ( Myanmar ) as he has difficulty in explaining in English. Now your message is almost the same. I think because of the same source. 35884 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Aug 30, 2004 9:26pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Intro Vis. XIV, 94, a correction. Htoo. Dear Htoo and Sarah, Htoo, thank you. I was confused about the english of santirana, it should be investigating, not determining. It investigates the object and votthapana determines it. Sarah, could this be corrected in Intro Vis 94, towards the end: This citta does not see, it merely receives visible object and then it is succeeded by Instead of investigating I mistakenly said: determining. op 30-08-2004 13:12 schreef Htoo Naing op htootintnaing@y...: Does santirana citta determine anything? 35885 From: Date: Mon Aug 30, 2004 5:47pm Subject: Re: [dsg]Path of Discrimination. Hi, Nina (and TG) - In a message dated 8/31/04 12:26:13 AM Eastern Daylight Time, nilo@e... writes: > > Hi Howard, > I can understand how you feel about the text. I appreciate it that you tried > again. But it is best to read what interests you. > ------------------------------------------------ Howard: I've worked (and it's really WORK!! ;-) at the first treatise again, and I find nothing in it for me at all. (Just can't see what you or TG find useful or even coherent in it.) So, I'm going to let the 1st two treatises go, at least for now, and go slowly through the rest, which I find incomparably better (for me). ------------------------------------------------- > Actualities are: the four noble truths. > ------------------------------------------------- Howard: Yes, I got that. In fact, I *like* that terminology. I, myself, mentioned once that I thought a better terminology than "the four noble truths" would be "the four noble facts," where, by "fact" I mean "actuality". ------------------------------------------------- Idea is dhamma as TG said. ------------------------------------------------- Howard: Thanks. Yes, I realized that from the introduction. Terrible translation!! ------------------------------------------------ > The first treatises are great! But we also have to turn to the > quotes.Dassutara.This takes quite some study. And the Vibhanga.> > I would like to help with the text a few words at a time, but > I must add that I still have a few more postings on the Distracting Thoughts > and Co. I want to finish that first, before I get all lost in my work. > Besides, there is always my tiika =========================== Thanks, Nina. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 35886 From: buddhatrue Date: Mon Aug 30, 2004 10:28pm Subject: Re: Cooran 13-15 August, 2004 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Ken (and James) - <============================= > Ken, I see no disparity at all between what the Buddha instructed and > what the "Ancient Commentaries" say on this matter. When one turns one > attention (that is, using more literal speech, "when attention is turned") in a > sustained, focussed, and clear way to the content of experience, concentration, > mindfulness, clarity of attention, and fineness of vision grow, and wisdom arises > so that phenomena come to be seen as they are: impermanent, insubstantial, > interdependent, lawfully arising and ceasing, unworthy (and incapable) of being > grasped, and very much impersonal - in short, empty. However, without the > powerful expenditure of needed effort and energy, seeing is no better than that of > the dogs and jackals referred to. > > With metta, > Howard Friend Howard, Hmmm…well, I have re-read that commentary in light of your post and I believe that you have a point also. Frankly, though, I find that commentary rather ambiguous. To ask some rhetorical questions: Do dogs and jackals really think "I am going"??? Do they "know" such a thing in the way that humans do? What is the point of being condescending to the knowledge of "I am going"? I don't think there is much point to that commentary. It confuses the issue rather than clarifies. The way I see it, mindfulness immersed in the body is a gradual process (thus the Buddha said it must be "developed") and therefore practically all awareness that focuses on the body and its means of deportment is awareness that falls under the category of "Mindfulness of the Body". Small amounts of awareness will lead to greater amounts of awareness, if the practice is consistently followed. I think that the entire point of mindfulness of the body is to cut down on discursive thinking and therefore cut down on desire and craving. Dogs and Jackals only move on the basis of craving; I have a hard time believing that they would ever focus on the knowledge of "I am going". Metta, James 35887 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Aug 31, 2004 0:44am Subject: Re: [dsg]Path of Discrimination. Hi Howard, TG, Nina, RobM & All, Good to be back and to catch up here after a very relaxing weekend in Bangkok with great dhamma discussion on Saturday. I have plenty of notes on points and qus from DSG discussions, inc. Nina's. We’re also working to making some of these discussions with K.Sujin available via the internet after any minor editing. --- upasaka@a... wrote: >> Howard: > I've worked (and it's really WORK!! ;-) at the first treatise > again, > and I find nothing in it for me at all. ... One of the recurring themes in the discussion related to the meaning of pariyatti which is often used here and translated as theoretical understanding. Pariyatti does not refer to the quantity of book study or recollection of terms and details. It refers to the understanding arising now. For example, if for you (and me!!) the Patisambhidamagga translation seems too difficult to follow, especially with its poor translation and without giving the Pali terms, the pariyatti refers to knowing at such a time that it is beyond one or to understanding the confusion or irritation arising, not to the grappling to find meanings and just blindly reading the text. Often, I just read a line or two only in a text like this and reflect on its meaning, often when it has been given as a reference elsewhere. To take the very beginning of the text,Treatise 1 on Knowledge, for example (p.8): 1. “How is it that understanding of applying the ear is knowledge of what consists in the heard (learnt)? (cf Vbh 324f)” i. “The ear is applied thus: these ideas (dhammas) are to be directly known. Understanding as the act of understanding that is knowledge of what consists in the heard (learnt). (cf Dasuttara, D iii 272ff).” ***** S: I assume this is referring to suta-maya-pa~n~naa: knowledge based on learning. It refers to panna which arises to know the very dhammas appearing at this moment and which we’ve heard and considered at length. In other words, the same namas and rupas arising at this moment such as seeing, visible object, confusion, thinking and so on. So all kinds of panna, including pariyatti always refer back to present dhammas, not to finishing a text, learning numbers or Pali terms or any other ‘book knowledge’. Looking briefly at Dasuttara Sutta, DN34, 1.3 gets my attention: “1.3 ‘Two things greatly help (bahukaaro), two things are to be developed(bhaavetabbo).....thoroughly known (pari~n~neyyo) etc 1) ‘Which two things greatly help? Mindfulness and clear awareness (sati ca sampaja~n~na~n ca)’ [S: sati & panna] 2)’Which two things are to be developed? Calm and insight (samatho ca vipassanaa ca)’ [S: samatha & vipassana] 3) ‘Which two things are to be thoroughly known? Mind and body (naama~ ca ruupa~n ca) [S: nama & rupa]” etc ***** So we see here that knowledge refers to the direct understanding of namas and rupas even whilst reading a text which is beyond us. Here we have a clear statement about how nama and rupa are to be thoroughly known, i.e as dhammas, not self, in the first Sutta Pitaka text. It may not use the term ‘paramattho’ (ultimate reality), but the meaning is the same - dhammas (realities) for sati-sampajanna to know. The terms are not important. Looking also briefly at Vbh324, an Abhidhamma text: “324. What states are neither-good-nor-bad? At the time when having done, having accumulated bad action there arises resultant eye consciousness accompanied by indifference, having visible object....ear consciousness etc..contact...feeling.....becoming...birth.....ageing and death. Thus is the arising of this whole mass of suffering.” S: In other words, we read further detail in these sections in the Abhidhamma about Dependent Origination, about the same conditioned dhammas arising and to be known at this present moment. Again, they are not to be known by trying to memorise the details and work out all the connections, but by understanding seeing as a dhamma, a nama, different from visible object, a rupa. The first experiences its object, the second can only be experienced. No self anywhere to be found in these conditioned dhammas. There is ignorance now when the dhamma appearing isn’t known. Rather than trying to find it, there can be awareness of the ignorance or doubt of craving to find a particular dhamma we’re reading about. So there has to be pariyatti which knows present dhammas before further direct understanding can be developed, precisely and clearly knowing its objects. Otherwise, all we do is to accumulate more thinking and book knowledge. That’s about all I can read and consider at one hit for now - i.e just a couple of lines with a little cross-referencing and some reflecting. I’m just trying to show how any study has to refer to the understanding of present dhammas and how for me, there is no inconsistency in what is given in the suttas, the Patisambhiddamagga or the Abhidhamma, though I really can only appreciate a small taste of each. I’ll look forward to any further assistance and clarifications Nina and TG can give on this text as well from their detailed studies. I'm smiling now as I sign off - my tiny computer room is surrounded by a dozen workmen erecting scaffolding on the platform outside (water leakage and air-conditioning problems), so it's incredibly noisy as I write and there are lots of interruptions, but this is daily life and there can be pariyatti and patipatti too whilst helping workmen, fixing drinks, protecting walls frim dirty marks and so on. The practice has to be so natural in daily life and doesn't depend at all on how much we read, but on the very present understanding of dhammas. Metta, Sarah p.s. TG, would you consider preparing a list of basic terms used and easily misunderstood with the Pali and a more usual meaning alongside? We could then cut and paste this into the back of our texts. e.g. idea (dhamma) - state/reality description (pa~n~natti) -concepts choice (khanti) - patience ===================== 35888 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Aug 31, 2004 1:59am Subject: Re: [dsg] Help? Hi Al & Phil, Hope you don't mind a combined post -lots to catch up on. Phil, good to see you back with your keen interest. Like Nina, I appeciate your sympathetic posts -- especially the first helpful one to AL. AL, loved reading your questions and keen appreciation of the various dhammas that make up daily life as we know it. I have one of yours here that I didn’t have time to respond to before the weekend: --- Andrew Levin wrote: > > S: Just one reality -one nama or rupa at a time without any > expectation > > about when or how often or how many...otherwise the expectations will > > prevent any sati arising. > > I don't know about this, I think sati can be cultivated, I've been > mindful of nearly all the feelings of a few of my sense doors at one > time, even if they are not all experienced at the same moment. I'm > pretty sure the Buddha meant to be mindful of body, feelings, mind, > and dhammas and their sub-sections pretty concurrently, and as much as > possible to practise within reason at once is good. ... S: I know it seems that we’re being bombarded with multi-sensory objects, but the truth -- which can be tested and proved as well as read about -- is that only one object can ever be experienced at a time by one citta and that there is only ever one citta arising at a time. So at the moments when cittas with awareness arise, they take a single object, a nama or a rupa only. If there is awareness of feeling, there cannot be awareness of seeing or visible object or hardness or any other reality at that time. I agree that sati can be cultivated, but only by really understanding what its nature or characteristic is, not by trying to experience all kinds of dhammas concurrently. The latter path will only lead to more attachment and confusion as I see it. .... > > S: The key is understanding, not concentration. There will be > momentary > > concentration regardless. > > How so. From what I read that's the counterpart sign in breath > meditation. Or if you're really good at some of the other meditations > such as reflection on the four elements or what have you then access > concentration will arise. .... S: I’m not sure if you saw a couple of posts I wrote to you last week on ‘Cetasikas’ and another on breath meditation in passing. When satipatthana develops, unless we’re talking about lokuttara cittas which experience nibbana, the accompanying concentration is khanika (momentary) concentration which arises with every citta. Of course, in this case, at moments of satipatthana, it is wholesome and rightly takes its object, a reality, without ‘scattering’. Let’s discuss it more when we get to ch5 in ‘Cetasikas’ and not rush. ..... AL: > Right. One point I do want to make is that for all the 'excellent > questions' I have asked, my understanding of the Buddhadharma is still > very weak. I may want to sit on the sidelines for a while until this > takes a change for the better, I don't think it's going to grow > naturally or anything, it's something that will just come in time. .... S: This is a good approach and observation. Yes, our understanding is very weak and its good that you appreciate this. Hearing, considering and reflecting as we are now will be the right conditions for the understanding to slowly grow -- not by any forcing or attachment to having special results. The realities we discuss are just dhammas -- not mine or yours or Phil’s and as Phil has stressed, beginning to understand them as they are (even theoretically for now), is the way that detachment will develop and the idea of ‘my road rage’ or ‘my mischief’ or ‘my special problems’ will gradually lose its hold. .... AL: >I > suppose I can correlate my experiences to the different mental > factors, eg yesterday I was out and I felt what could be phassa but I > wasn't sure if that's what it was. There really could be the danger > that I'm just loading my head with knowledge but not truly penetrating > or understanding as much of it as I should be. .... S: Yes, I think there is a danger when we read the details and then try to read them into our experiences imagining there is more awareness than there really is. But that’s OK -- even at these times, the attachment and wishing for results and developed wisdom can be known and seen for what it is. ... AL: > Fear is anticipation of pain. If you knew you had such pain before > you you'd be afraid too. .... S: It’s natural, it’s common, it’s conditioned, it’s anatta. It can be understood for what it is when it arises too - another unwholesome dhamma, not one to be developed. .... S:>> Developing understanding now > is the > > most beneficial. > A: > You're right on the second part, I'll give you that. But I don't know > that I can develop understanding per se. Sometimes when I take really > slow walks outside I can come home and have the capability to > understand stuff from all my texts, otherwise I don't. ... S: No, ‘you’ can’t develop understanding. Nothing that can be done by self. As I wrote in my last post to Howard and others, if you don’t understand the texts, understanding that ‘not understanding’ at that moment is the way, not the reading with attachment or desperation which merely accumulates more kilesa (defilements). .... AL: > But you are wrong on the first part. The Buddha taught laypeople why > some people reappear in hell and some people reappear in heaven, he > taught how mischief can bring one to the lower realms, and I know I'm > not acting in accordance with the good path It's something that's > pretty scary, especially considering my poor health. You could almost > say I've apprehended and know too much for my own good through my > spiritual practise. .... S: I agree that the results of good and bad deeds is stressed a lot and any views that good and bad deeds don’t bring results are very dangerous. What I was stressing, however, is that the worrying and fear about the unknown results and future lives is adding more kilesa to those that have already arisen. I quoted a sutta before to you and also Phil to show that dwelling on one’s past bad deeds with aversion is not useful at all. Clinging to oneself or one’s future is also not skilful and not conducive to the development of detachment in anyway. As Matt wrote to someone, if there is the experiencing of hardness now, that’s all there is. No other world, no self...just the experiencing of hardness and then gone. .... AL> No, no. No, no. I've been told I'm wicked, scripture refers to > evil-doers being born in the state of woe, and as evil being apparent > as evil. I know when I"m evil, Sarah, and it's a -lot- of the time. ... S: Just passing dhammas, AL. No me or you at all. The way to have less ‘evil’ or be less of an ‘evil-doer’ is by the development of wisdom with detachment which knows these states as conditioned dhammas. That’s all. Only one way. .... S: > Reflections on the Dhamma are certainly not `wicked' and > > unwholesome cittas and selfishness are very common for us all. > AL: > True but I don't know how much I'm truly able to reflect on the > Dharma. Well, scratch that, I do, and it's not a lot. I'm more of a > walking library. I only want to get some good vipassana meditation > going and carry my (eventual) understanding of Abhidharma with me to > practise Satipatthana. .... S: It’s good that you see that being a ‘walking library’ is not sufficient. We need to discuss more about the meaning of ‘good vipassana meditation’ and satipatthana. I’m glad you appreciate the value of understanding Abhidhamma in this regard as applying to this very moment we speak. Can there be ‘good vipassana meditation’ right now? What is the object appearing? .... A:> Don't think it's wicked mental states, think it's wicked actions and > thoughts. Just "the evil way in thoughts, the evil way in words, the > evil way in deeds" Even trifling evils, that's why it's called > mischief. .... S: Thank you. I don’t wish to suggest or downplay the danger and harm of such ‘wicked mental states’ or ‘mischief’, but just to stress that they are so very common to us worldlings and have to be seen for what they are as conditioned dhammas. Also, we have to realize that there are not just ‘wicked states’ and actions and deeds, but many other realities arising too, so we need to hear and consider these as well, so that there isn’t any idea of lasting evil states for example. ... AL: > Love the walks, but listening to music, raiding the fridge, etc, I > feel take away from my austerity and leave me faring worse off in the > long run. ... S: I didn’t express it well - sometimes I was just quickly responding to your panic button;-). The comment wasn’t intended as a suggestion of what to do so much as an indication that we shouldn’t think that we need to sit in isolation or austerity even in order to develop vipassana meditation. Any time or during any activity, there are dhammas appearing, even if they are not the ones of choice. But then, this is the path of choiceless detachment and understanding what is evident, however much courage that might take. Metta, Sarah p.s Phil, I wrote a post to you with a little more on a Theragatha verse just as you were leaving - you may not have seen it? Also, your post #34281 on roots from Sammaditthi sutta. I checked and in the comy it has already stressed that ‘covetousness....is the unwholesome root greed, and ill-will.......hate’, so later when it says ‘one root, by way of delusion; likewise ill will’ it is in addition. Hope that helps.(p.33 and 34 of the wheel). I’m working on making recordings available for you....thx for your patience as escribe says to me each time I check it;-). =================== 35889 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Aug 31, 2004 2:16am Subject: Re: [dsg] XIV 109 Hi Larry, Ken H & All, --- LBIDD@w... wrote: > > Oops. Wrong address. I meant to send this to myself. Please disregard > 109 for now. ... I'm doing as requested, but can't we share in these discussions between you and yourself? I'd like to hear more of your reflections and miss all the Qs you used to have for Nina, yourself and others....;-) Also Ken H any anyone else with a big drafts folder, even if you see Nina or another friend has responded to some questions, we'd still like to see your replies with holes and all. Everyone picks up different aspects and has his or her own style...it's particularly interesting when several people respond to the same comments or Qs...so no need to be shy.... It goes without saying too that anything written on a discussion list is a 'draft' and not edited, so I don't think any of us should be anxious about errors and corrections which are bound to be necessary for most of us, especially as we're all still learning on the path......;-) Look forward to more on 109 in due course.... Metta, Sarah ====== 35890 From: htootintnaing Date: Tue Aug 31, 2004 3:11am Subject: Re: Tiika Vis. XIV, 93 Htoo. Dear Nina, The Venerable's message is complete. It is mentioned that from 'Tiika page 398-400 '. It is Burmese ( Myanmar )translation. Htoo ---------------------------------------------------------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: Dear Htoo. I am glad about that. His Burmese text is a good check for me. I am very interested, perhaps you can ask him about his source. I do not know in what other languages the Tiika is translated. Nina. 35891 From: kenhowardau Date: Tue Aug 31, 2004 3:46am Subject: [dsg] Re: Cooran 13-15 August, 2004 Hi Howard, James and RobM, Thanks for your messages. Forgive the slowness of my response, I seem to be running low on ammunition. :-) Also, this current week is a busy one (by my standards) and so I have less computer time than usual. It seems my interest in Buddhism has always involved battles with other Buddhists. In the beginning, I was strongly opposed to religiosity and charlatanry. I felt obliged to contradict the Dalai Lama and anyone else holding out a `golden begging bowl to gullible Westerners.' Perhaps I should leave other people alone and concentrate on the Dhamma. :-) I think the current disagreements on DSG are of a very healthy kind. People who hold views that conflict with the ancient texts are admitting that there is that conflict. And so they dissociate their forms of Buddhism from the Commentaries, the Abhidhamma (or parts thereof) and even some of the Suttanta. I hope I don't begrudge those people their opinions – I try not to. It is only when ritualistic practices are attributed to the Buddhadhamma *as found in the Pali Canon* that I intentionally get on my high horse. See you in a couple of days, hopefully with fresh ammunition. Ken H :-) 35892 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Aug 31, 2004 4:47am Subject: Re: [dsg] Help? Hi Andrew, just realized that I overlooked the post of yours which I'd planned to and looked forward to replying to, i.e #35583 on Bagels etc. Apologies for the even longer delay on this one - put it down to a touch of jet-lag. Will get back soon with further discussion on satipatthana. Also to Agrios and a few others when I have a chance. Sarah 35893 From: htootintnaing Date: Tue Aug 31, 2004 4:56am Subject: Craving the main source Dear Dhamma Friends, Here are some words from mahanidana sutta ( DN 15 ). [ DN 15 ] Dependent on craving "Now, craving is dependent on feeling, seeking is dependent on craving, acquisition is dependent on seeking, ascertainment is dependent on acquisition, desire and passion is dependent on ascertainment, attachment is dependent on desire and passion, possessiveness is dependent on attachment, stinginess is dependent on possessiveness, defensiveness is dependent on stinginess, and because of defensiveness, dependent on defensiveness, various evil, unskillful phenomena come into play: the taking up of sticks and knives; conflicts, quarrels, and disputes; accusations, divisive speech, and lies. "And this is the way to understand how it is that because of defensiveness various evil, unskillful phenomena come into play: the taking up of sticks and knives; conflicts, quarrels, and disputes; accusations, divisive speech, and lies. If there were no defensiveness at all, in any way, of anything anywhere, in the utter absence of defensiveness, from the cessation of defensiveness, would various evil, unskillful phenomena -- the taking up of sticks and knives; conflicts, quarrels, and disputes; accusations, divisive speech, and lies -- come into play?" "No, lord." [ End quote ] Those who involved in accusations, conflicts, quarrels and word wars need to study this. This is one of implications of Dependent Origination. Even though some raise the issue of Dependent Origination very important, the implications seem not taken as word wars are evidently being seen. May you all see Dependent Origination not in theory but with own wisdom. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 35894 From: htootintnaing Date: Tue Aug 31, 2004 6:40am Subject: Rob M'sTheory Behind The Buddha's Smile ( 02 ) by Htoo Dear Dhamma Friends, Theory Behind the Buddha's Smile written by Rob M can be viewed at 'Files' section. The messages there are very clear and they are non-tiring to read. In the first post of criticism ( good as well as bad ) was on the materials from the page 1 to page 10. In this post, Page 11 to page 16 will constructively be critisized. 1. page 12 'Nibbana is, in fact, the object of a mind state'. I think there is nothing wrong. But in the context of expalining the general idea on citta, cetasika, rupa and nibbana, this statement is not quite right. Because it will only indicate that it is just an object. Actually 'Nibbana' is more than that and a new text can be written on 'Nibbana' alone. It is an ultimate reality. It is a real existence. This existence among other implications can also serve as an arammana or an object. 2. page 12 There are 5 bullet dots near the end of the page. In the middle bullet that is the third one, it is said that.. 'Nothing arises from a single cause.' The statement is not wrong. But in the context, it seem to say on deity or deities. Like, a single God creates everything. When rupas are considered there are causes like kamma, citta, utu, and ahara. There are some rupas that arise from a single cause. This is just contemplation. The statement is not wrong. 3. page 15 This is a good point to mention like this.. ''Mental state = Citta + Cetasikas '' 4. page 15 ''It arises when there are no thoughts.'' This sentence is for bhavanga citta or life continuum. But there may arise controveries. Because bhavanga cittas do have mental components like citta and cetasikas. If it is 39th citta that is somanassa sahagatam nana sampayuttam asankharika citta, there will be 33 cetasikas. Among these 33 cetasikas there are attention or manasikara, vitakka or applied thought, vicara or sustained thoughts etc etc. So it may be wrong to say 'when there are no thoughts.' Instead, it should be, I think, 'when there are no sense-impressions including mind-objects'. 5. page 15 'Bhavanga mental states fill in the gaps between sense-door-process and mind-door-process.' This is not wrong. But I have different idea on this matter. A life, any life starts with patisandhi citta and it ends with cuti citta. This is no doubt. Actually all are bhavanga cittas but as their functions are 'initial arisin and linking of past life's cuti citta and the 1st bhavanga citta of current life and ending of this life, their names become patisandhi and cuti. But actually they are bhavanga cittas. So a life starts with patisandhi and ends with cuti. In between are all bhavanga cittas. But these bhavanga cittas are made holes by cittas taking sense- impression. So bhavanga cittas do not fill the gaps but gaps are created by vithi cittas. How do they( vithi cittas ) enter in a life ( in continuous series of bhavanga cittas )? They enter through a door. That door is bhavanga citta itself. But it is the last bhavanga cittas arising just immediately before the 1st vithi citta ( vithi cittas are foreign to bhavanga cittas and they can be assumed as hole or gap in between disrupted bhavanga cittas series ). That last bhavanga citta is called bhavanguppaccheda citta. This is just food for thought. 6. page 15 'Sleeping mind'. This word is used for representation of bhavanga cittas. But I do not think, it fits. Sleeping mind have many reactions. When sleeping, there are bodily movements, some voices, for male penile erection and many other. This is normal physiology for human beings. In physiology of sleep, there are different stages. Leaving other minor things, there are two types of sleeping. One is called REM sleep that is Rapid Eye-balls Movement sleep. During REM sleep, eye-balls are roving from side to side. If someone want to observe this, just observe closed eyes of those people who are sleeping. They will be moving from side to side and at a time stop. And again they will start this movement again. If you observe a young boy, you will see his penile erection, if you can be patient enough to watch the whole sleep cycles. During NREM sleep or non-Rapid Eye-balls Movement sleep, the breathing becomes regular and rhythmic unlike REM when irregular respiration may be observed and even stop breathing for a while. NREM is deep sleep. In this NREM in the middle part, all mental activities will fit with bhavanga cittas. Initial and exit part of NREM may or may not contain vithi cittas. So, instead of saying sleeping mind, it should be 'dream-less deep sleeping mind'. 7. page 15 'The function of the bhavanga mental state is to provide continuity when there is no current object'. This is also right. But there always are objetcs around us. This point is difficult to discuss. I think, when current objects are no more recognized because of attention is no more there, no vithi cittas arise and instead bhavanga cittas have to arise as life continuum as there are still kamma that have to give rise to life as life continuum. 8. page 16 Mental state 19 is mentioned as it does not have any wholesome root. This is right. But Idid not find, mentioning of there is also no unwholesome root. This 19th citta or 'upekkha sahagatam akusala vipaka santirana citta' is a rootless citta. So there are no wholesome roots and equally there are no unwholesome roots. 9. page 16 'Serious and jovial' . These words may be quite right. But, does 'upekkha' mean serious here? And does jovial mean 'loosening & non-serious' here? Remember the bhavanga citta of The Buddha. 10. page 16 Mental states 60-64 .. fine material plane. I prefer to use pleural here. As there are 5 separate rupavacara rupavipaka cittas, each arises in their respective plane. As there are many planes it should be 'fine material planes of existence'. 11. page 16 The same as in above critics'10. Mental states 74 -77 ..immaterial plane should be in pleural because there are 4 separate planes.So it should be 'immaterial planes. May these criticisms be beneficial. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 35895 From: robmoult Date: Tue Aug 31, 2004 7:29am Subject: Re: Rob M'sTheory Behind The Buddha's Smile ( 02 ) by Htoo Hi Htoo, This is fantastic. Of great assistance. Thank you so very much. Please re-post the comments on pages 1 - 10. Metta, Rob M :-) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" wrote: > Dear Dhamma Friends, > > Theory Behind the Buddha's Smile written by Rob M can be viewed > at 'Files' section. The messages there are very clear and they are > non-tiring to read. > > In the first post of criticism ( good as well as bad ) was on the > materials from the page 1 to page 10. In this post, Page 11 to page > 16 will constructively be critisized. > 35896 From: htootintnaing Date: Tue Aug 31, 2004 8:05am Subject: Re: Rob M'sTheory Behind The Buddha's Smile ( 02 ) by Htoo Dear Rob M, It is onthe list under the heading 'Theory Behind the Buddha's Smile'. It is not long time ago. If sarah does not object, I will re- post the whole with the above heading ( 01 ). You are amazingly good at dhamma. I am not praising without base. I seem to be a critic now while I am not able to write a whole book like you. It is a great job Rob M. Thanks for you kind words. I will continue to read your ebook. If there are points to discuss then I will post them here in DSG as Nina suggested. With Metta, Htoo Naing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" wrote: > Hi Htoo, > > This is fantastic. Of great assistance. Thank you so very much. > > Please re-post the comments on pages 1 - 10. > 35897 From: Date: Tue Aug 31, 2004 4:28am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Cooran 13-15 August, 2004 Hi, James (and Ken) - In a message dated 8/31/04 1:41:49 AM Eastern Daylight Time, buddhatrue@y... writes: > >Hi, Ken (and James) - > <============================= > > Ken, I see no disparity at all between what the Buddha > instructed and > >what the "Ancient Commentaries" say on this matter. When one turns > one > >attention (that is, using more literal speech, "when attention is > turned") in a > >sustained, focussed, and clear way to the content of experience, > concentration, > >mindfulness, clarity of attention, and fineness of vision grow, > and wisdom arises > >so that phenomena come to be seen as they are: impermanent, > insubstantial, > >interdependent, lawfully arising and ceasing, unworthy (and > incapable) of being > >grasped, and very much impersonal - in short, empty. However, > without the > >powerful expenditure of needed effort and energy, seeing is no > better than that of > >the dogs and jackals referred to. > > > >With metta, > >Howard > > Friend Howard, > > Hmmm…well, I have re-read that commentary in light of your post and > I believe that you have a point also. Frankly, though, I find that > commentary rather ambiguous. To ask some rhetorical questions: Do > dogs and jackals really think "I am going"??? Do they "know" such a > thing in the way that humans do? What is the point of being > condescending to the knowledge of "I am going"? ----------------------------------------- Howard: No, I don't believe they are aware of anything in the same, verbally oriented way, that humans are. However, in their own superficial way, I do believe that they conceptually grasp what goes on. When there is food, they are aware of it conceptually, when there is danger thay are conceptually aware of it. I don't think they merely perceive and react automatically - I believe that they do have a nonverbal - or even somewhat verbal - conceptual faculty. That becomes clear, I think, when one gains familiarity with dogs. Don't you agree? The point made by the commentary, I think, is that merely knowing the obvious things we always know at a level of no more depth than that of dogs and jackals, is not what vipassana bhavana is about. Attention to dhammas must be at such a sufficiently fine level, and supported by intense concentration, energy, etc, that insight arises which reveals that at the finest levels of experience possible, beyond and underlying the level of conventional objects, nothing is substantial (having an essence or self-sufficient core), and nothing is permanent, nor independent, nor controllable (though, of course, conditioned and influenceable), nor personal. The practice of cultivation of insight as taught by the Buddha has us direct our attention at conventional, conceptually grasped phenomena - for that is what is initially available to us, but the development and culmination of the practice goes beyond that, way deeper to the very fabric of reality and its nature. -------------------------------------------------- > > I don't think there is much point to that commentary. It confuses > the issue rather than clarifies. The way I see it, mindfulness > immersed in the body is a gradual process (thus the Buddha said it > must be "developed") and therefore practically all awareness that > focuses on the body and its means of deportment is awareness that > falls under the category of "Mindfulness of the Body". Small > amounts of awareness will lead to greater amounts of awareness, if > the practice is consistently followed. I think that the entire > point of mindfulness of the body is to cut down on discursive > thinking and therefore cut down on desire and craving. Dogs and > Jackals only move on the basis of craving; I have a hard time > believing that they would ever focus on the knowledge of "I am > going". ------------------------------------------------ Howard: I don't disagree with that, nor do I think the commentary does. (Animals, in fact, don't focus at all except as automatically driven to by enormous craving, anger, or fear.) The point is in fact to go beyond the trivial level of animal congition to what is possible for humans.The point, as I see it, is exactly *not* to misinterpret and trivialize the practice of awareness of such facts as "I am going". I believe the point of the commentary is to emphasize the enormous *depth* involved in the process of vipassana bhavana. ============================ With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 35898 From: robmoult Date: Tue Aug 31, 2004 8:39am Subject: Busy Day and a Lesson Hi All, Yesterday was the full moon which ended the "ghost month" so the Uposatha puja included a dhamma talk on transferring merits to help the Chinese understand the Buddhist foundation for traditional beliefs. A very interesting talk, but my wife and I did not get home until after midnight. Today is Malaysia's independence day, so it is a holiday. Early in the morning, we got a call from Jakarta that my wife's uncle had passed away during the night. My wife and I rushed to the market to have fruits and vegetables as part of a sandikha dana to transfer the merit to our deceased uncle. After the ceremony, my wife and I visited a Buddhist community centre to discuss setting up of a new Sunday school for children. While there, we got an SMS message that one of my students in my Abhidhamma class had passed away the night before. Some of my students were meeting at the temple to go as a group to visit the deceased person's home (they were having the traditional open house). To be frank, I did not know the deceased very well at all. Both my wife and I were quite tired from running around all day. It was the last day of sales at the stores and I needed to buy a new suit. My wife and I discussed what we should do. At the end, we decided to "do the right thing" and visit the deceased with the other students. The deceased's wife was so happy to see me (she had also attended my class, but stopped more than a year ago due to her husband's deterioriating health). It was clear that she was especially touched that I had come to visit. Even the deceased's daughter recognized me as her father's Abhidhamma teacher. When I left, the deceased's wife shook my hand firmly, looked into my eyes, thanked me profusely and promised to return to my class soon. It warmed my heart. As we drove home, I was reminded of the Buddha's words (Iti 26): "If beings knew, as I know, the results of giving & sharing, they would not eat without having given, nor would the stain of miserliness overcome their minds. Even if it were their last bite, their last mouthful, they would not eat without having shared, if there were someone to receive their gift. But because beings do not know, as I know, the results of giving & sharing, they eat without having given. The stain of miserliness overcomes their minds." I also reflected upon another saying of the Buddha (ANIII.57): "Even if a person throws the rinsings of a bowl or a cup into a village pool or pond, thinking, 'May whatever animals live here feed on this,' that would be a source of merit." I reflected how closely I had come to missing an opportunity to perform a meritorious deed that warmed my heart. I was very tired, I needed to do some shopping and came close to saying, "I've done enough meritorious deeds for today, time to rest". However, by putting in a little extra effort, I got a huge, immediate payback. Doing good things is like planting seeds. It is our duty to do the planting. After the seeds are planted, the laws of nature take over and fruits will arise when conditions support the arising. Sometimes (like this evening), the fruits are almost immediate, sometimes the fruits do not arise until later. I encourage all members of DSG to look for opportunities to perform meritorious deeds and share them with others on DSG so that the sharing of meritorious deeds becomes a culture on DSG. Metta, Rob M :-) 35899 From: robmoult Date: Tue Aug 31, 2004 8:48am Subject: Re: Rob M'sTheory Behind The Buddha's Smile ( 02 ) by Htoo Hi Htoo, Found it. Again, I really appreciate your very constructive feedback. Phil is giving me his input as well; it is also excellent. After incorporating all of these comments, I will build up my nerve to show it to my toughest critic - my wife :-) Metta, Rob M :-) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" wrote: > Dear Rob M, > > It is onthe list under the heading 'Theory Behind the Buddha's > Smile'. It is not long time ago. If sarah does not object, I will re- > post the whole with the above heading ( 01 ). > 35900 From: Date: Tue Aug 31, 2004 4:53am Subject: Re: [dsg]Path of Discrimination. Hi, Sarah et al - In a message dated 8/31/04 3:45:15 AM Eastern Daylight Time, sarahprocterabbott@y... writes: > Hi Howard, TG, Nina, RobM &All ======================= Thank you for this, Sarah. I get the point that running down the sutta references reveals wonderful material. However, I am not willing to spend time on figuring out the cryptic speech in the 1st two treatises and tracing the references. That is a detective's task that does not interest me. The wonderful material is to be found directly in the suttas, themselves, which I constantly read and contemplate. I own and constantly reread the Majhima, Digha, and Samyutta Nikayas as well as the Sutta Nipata and selections from the Anguttara Nikaya. This is my pariyatti - this plus certain wonderful modern commentaries on particular suttas which bring in supportive material from other suttas to give a rounded picture, such as works by Nyanananda Bhikkhu, Nyanaponika Thera, Bhikku Bodhi, Ayya Khema, and Peter Harvey, plus (Budhhaghosa forbid!) Mahayana works. I suspect that I might also gain considerably from the Theravadin commentaries on the sutta pitaka, but I don't have these. Also, because I *know* from prior perusal that there is excellent material directly given in the PTSMBDMGGA beyond the 1st two treatises, I am continuing with that work. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 35901 From: Date: Tue Aug 31, 2004 5:26am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Cooran 13-15 August, 2004 Hi, Ken - In a message dated 8/31/04 6:47:42 AM Eastern Daylight Time, kenhowardau@y... writes: > Hi Howard, James and RobM, > > Thanks for your messages. Forgive the slowness of my response, I > seem to be running low on ammunition. :-) Also, this current week > is a busy one (by my standards) and so I have less computer time > than usual. > > It seems my interest in Buddhism has always involved battles with > other Buddhists. In the beginning, I was strongly opposed to > religiosity and charlatanry. I felt obliged to contradict the Dalai > Lama and anyone else holding out a `golden begging bowl to gullible > Westerners.' Perhaps I should leave other people alone and > concentrate on the Dhamma. :-) > > I think the current disagreements on DSG are of a very healthy kind. > People who hold views that conflict with the ancient texts are > admitting that there is that conflict. And so they dissociate > their forms of Buddhism from the Commentaries, the Abhidhamma (or > parts thereof) and even some of the Suttanta. I hope I don't > begrudge those people their opinions – I try not to. It is only when > ritualistic practices are attributed to the Buddhadhamma *as found > in the Pali Canon* that I intentionally get on my high horse. > > See you in a couple of days, hopefully with fresh ammunition. > Ken H > :-) > ========================== As some of my son's Texas in-laws might say, you sound like you are "loaded for bear"! ;-)) It occurs to me that at times the language we use affects our thoughts. What do you think, Mr. Ammunition guy? ;-)) More seriously, I'm looking forward to continuing our discussions. I find them very enjoyable and beneficial! :-) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 35902 From: connieparker Date: Tue Aug 31, 2004 9:29am Subject: Re: Cooran 13-15 August, 2004 Hi, Friend James, Just butting in. A few years ago, when my mom's cat was hugely pregnant, we left the door open just enough so she could get through, but she still touched both the frame and the door when she did. The other cat could fit through without touching, no problem, but when she followed the pregnant cat out, she purposely swayed her body to touch where the bigger cat had. Quite humourous at the time, but maybe you had to be there. No way for me to know what she was thinking, of course, but it sure seemed like there was some awareness of "I am going" and how. I guess, though, that for most of us, most of the time, 'our' awareness isn't any better than that of the dog tied to his post. peace, connie > Friend Howard, > Hmmm…well, I have re-read that commentary in light of your post and > I believe that you have a point also. Frankly, though, I find that > commentary rather ambiguous. To ask some rhetorical questions: Do > dogs and jackals really think "I am going"??? Do they "know" such a > thing in the way that humans do? What is the point of being > condescending to the knowledge of "I am going"? 35903 From: Herman Hofman Date: Tue Aug 31, 2004 9:45am Subject: The full moon Hi everyone, Please read the following line with emphasis on the whole line. The moon is always full. If this is problematical, I will try and make it clearer. Kind Regards Herman 35904 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Aug 31, 2004 10:57am Subject: The Removal of Distracting Thoughts, no 8 The Removal of Distracting Thoughts, no 8 Sutta: If evil, unskillful thoughts continue to arise in a bhikkhu in spite of his endeavor to be without attention and reflection as regards evil, unskillful thoughts, he should reflect on the removal of the (thought) source of those unskillful thoughts. Then the evil, unskillful thoughts are eliminated; they disappear. By their elimination, the mind stands firm, settles down, becomes unified and concentrated, just within (his subject of meditation). **** The Commentary explains how he should reflect on the source of his unwholesome thoughts. He should understand their conditions and causes. The term sa.nkhaara is used, meaning here: the condition and cause, or the root. The Buddha said that the bhikkhu should realize the conditions for his thoughts. He should find out and consider what the cause is of his thoughts and what not; he should consider what the root and what the condition is of such thought, and why it arises. N: The bhikkhu should not merely think about this, but he should directly understand conditions. He should have a thorough understanding of the Dependent Origination. So long as he has not eradicated ignorance there are conditions for akusala cittas. **** Nina. 35905 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Aug 31, 2004 10:57am Subject: Re: [dsg]Path of Discrimination. Hi Howard, I looked at the intro of the Co to the beginning of the Path of Discrimination. Some remarks in passing. It is repeated that these dhammas have to be understood, developed, realized, abandoned. There is reference to the Dialogues (Digha Nikaya) III, p. 250 PTS edition. (Sutta 34). About applying the ear, listening. CO: listening, savana, is listening to the true Dhamma. (Discrimination is often repeated, it is the title of the book). We discussed the four Discriminations before with reference to the Vis. and tiika. I can repost it if you like. The Co. elaborates on paññaa consisting of listening, sutta maya ñaa.na. Pañña that becomes accomplished by listening. As quoted before from A. Sujin: listening with respect is: listening and developing understanding of what one hears. Reference to Book of Analysis, p. 424, 425: wisdom by means of thinking, what you can think out yourself, even in the spheres of craft and science. Wisdom by means of hearing, acquired by hearing from others. We discussed this before, when doing the Visuddhi passages. It won't hurt to repost it for those who were not there: The Dispeller of Delusion explains that a wise man invents things for people¹s confort, such as dwellings, tools for ploughing, sorts of science, etc. This is wisdom with regard to worldly matters. Thus, there is wisdom in behaviour beneficial to beings, and there are higher degrees of understanding, namely: understanding of the Path, and the realization of nibbana. Part of the Tiika: Back to the Patisambidhamagga: Read *understanding* for knowledge. I like the repetition:the ear is applied thus, it stresses the importance of listening again and again. And see the emphasis on understanding. We can see by this whole list how important listening is for understanding. It is the first Ch of the Treatise on Knowledge. Further on, for principle, read: dhatu, element. This is an idea that is not too complicated: if you jot down each term that is strange I can make an alternative glossary. Pali is given in the back and I can translate this again into a (hopefully) clearer English. Just a few at a time is easy to do. Nina. 35906 From: plnao Date: Tue Aug 31, 2004 3:22pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Busy Day and a Lesson Hello Rob Your story helped to start my day off on a very wholesome note. Thanks. > I encourage all members of DSG to look for opportunities to perform > meritorious deeds and share them with others on DSG so that the > sharing of meritorious deeds becomes a culture on DSG. This is a wonderful suggestion. I will soon be returning to posting passages from K Sujin's "Deeds of Merits." I was reminded to do this by a recent post from Nina and now am re-reminded by yours. As for performing meritous deeds, it might be very subtle as to whether we are performing them in a pure way with the other's wellbeing in mind or out of a sense of guilt, or out of self's desire to get something emotionally reassuring out of it. But I mustn't let thinking too much about that kind of thing get in the way of doing good deeds. Zen wa isoge - goodness hurries- as the Japanese proverb I posted the other day puts it. Metta, Phil 35907 From: Date: Tue Aug 31, 2004 3:59pm Subject: Re: [dsg] XIV 109 Hi Sarah, S: "I'd like to hear more of your reflections and miss all the Qs you used to have for Nina, yourself and others....;-)" Sorry, I just don't have anything new to say. Guess my brains have shut down. The only thing that has occurred to me of even marginal interest is that all the commentarial discussion on eye consciousness only has visible data as object, ear consciousness only has sound as object, etc., is a key element in the reasoning why consciousness is not self. If all consciousness was considered to be the same with only differences in objects and cetasikas then it wouldn't be so easy to argue that consciousness is not self. Larry 35908 From: Date: Tue Aug 31, 2004 0:10pm Subject: Re: [dsg] The full moon Hi, Herman - In a message dated 8/31/04 12:46:11 PM Eastern Daylight Time, hhofman@t... writes: > > Hi everyone, > > Please read the following line with emphasis on the whole line. > > The moon is always full. > > If this is problematical, I will try and make it clearer. > > Kind Regards > > Herman > =========================== And nibbana is always present. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 35909 From: plnao Date: Tue Aug 31, 2004 4:13pm Subject: Re: [dsg] The Removal of Distracting Thoughts, no 8 Hello Nina, and all Thank you for this series. You offered to send the whole series to me, since I missed the beginning when I was away, but as soon as my internet is working again, I will track it down at the group page. As it happens, I was thinking of asking you - probably not for the first time - how the abhidhamma approach taught by K Sujin can be integrated with the 4 right efforts, which sound so active in eliminating unwholesome thoughts that have arisen. For example, we read in your perfections (chapter on Sila) "There should be no selection of the object of mindfulness. Any reality which appears can be object of mindfulness. Who knows what the next moment will be? It can be seeing, thinking, very strong attachment, anger or jealousy.In order to learn to see the disadvantages of akusala its characteristic has to be known, and thus there should be awareness of it when it appears." When I first read this sort of thing I misunderstood it to mean that we should be comfortable in the presence of unwholesome thought and welcome them without any disinclination to do so. Recently I found a very helpful passage in the Visuddhimmagha chapter on the Brahma-Viharas: "The anger that you entertain is gnawing at the very roots of all the virtues you guard- who is there such a fool as you?" This helped me to understand that there is a difference between being aware of an unwholesome thought, and entertaining it. Perhaps entertaining refers to proliferating on it. In practical terms, I certainly understand what entertaining an unwholesome thought is referring to. > Sutta: > If evil, unskillful thoughts continue to arise in a bhikkhu in spite of his > endeavor to be without attention and reflection as regards evil, unskillful > thoughts, he should reflect on the removal of the (thought) source of those > unskillful thoughts. Then the evil, unskillful thoughts are eliminated; they > disappear. By their elimination, the mind stands firm, settles down, becomes > unified > and concentrated, just within (his subject of meditation). > > **** > The Commentary explains how he should reflect on the source of hi > unwholesome thoughts. He should understand their conditions and causes. The > term sa.nkhaara is used, meaning here: the condition and cause, or the root. > The Buddha said that the bhikkhu should realize the conditions for his > thoughts. He should find out and consider what the cause is of his thoughts > and what not; he should consider what the root and what the condition is of > such thought, and why it arises. Ph: Please allow me to share much more than anyone wants to know about my struggle with unwholesome thoughts. Referring here to sexual thoughts. As I said a few months back, I have come to have a kind of "one plough's length" approach towards not glancing at women who are walking towards me on the sidewalk. This is out of consideration for the women and out of a desire not to keep building conditions for lust. There were so many years or looking, so many thousands or millions of lustful glances. It's time to stop. I think it's all right. I don't do it in an obsessive way. It's just become my habit. But when I'm teaching this is not an option. Lovely women are in my class and lean towards me with eager attention to hear my proclamations on the future tense or countable vs. uncountable nouns. Of course I don't take a one plough's length approach in the classroom. So I am prey to unwholesome thoughts at times. I am aware of them - watch them flood up in my mind. And at times I see that I *do* entertain them briefly - even during class- in a way that I can't control. I understand the conditions. It is because I have done so often in a uncontrolled way in my younger years. Now I'm paying for it. There have been times I've dealt with this by reflecting on the unwholesomeness of the body and its functions, but this is not easy to do. But the other day - just for a split second - there was something very promising. I looked at a woman who had become an object of lust and saw her as teeth. I did! I swear! Just like in that sutta. Of course, that moment was conditioned by having read that sutta about the man who only sees teeth walking by rather than the lovely woman in her bangles, but it *did* happen. It was a moment of sati, I think, and then it was gone. There was no change in my friendly demeanour towards her because of this. But it was very liberating. It might not happen again in this lifetime. And then again it might. We will see. > N: The bhikkhu should not merely think about this, but he should directly > understand conditions. He should have a thorough understanding of the > Dependent Origination. So long as he has not eradicated ignorance there are > conditions for akusala cittas. Your post encourages me to look more deeply into conditions that are involved rather than just thinking. "I've done it and done it and done it so I'm doing it again!" Back to the 4 efforts. Having read about not selecting objects, not allowing lobha to pull the mind away from objects the way it does ("If one thinks that one should rather have objects other than the present one since these appear to be more wholesome, one will never study the object which appears now...If desire can move one away to another object, that object satisfies one's desire...Usually one does not see the subtle lobha which moves one away from developing right understanding of the present object." - Perfections ch. on Energy) I hesitate to do select objects. But I feel there is a line that should not be crossed. And I do actively remove sexual fantasies or violent fantasies such as making George Bush crawl on a leash. (sorry.) And turn the mind to recollections of the Buddha. Actually, I still haven't learned how to do that so I turn to reflecting on the 4NTs. Anyways, I am still curious about how we can reconcile the very active sounding language of the 4 right efforts with the idea of not selecting objects taught above, but I am not pressing hard to figure it out. It is wholesome to learn to be comfortable with the things we don't understand yet and not demand answers. Metta, Phil 35910 From: Andrew Levin Date: Tue Aug 31, 2004 5:34pm Subject: What should I do --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > Dear AL, > N: Your Q. are good, to the point. Yes the goal should be application in > daily life, otherwise there is just speculation. One remark. I think Sarah > had in mind a small portion at a time. You could take just 1/4 page or so. > Otherwise it is too hurried, we cannot get in deeply into the subject in > this way. Better take a small part and really go into the matter thoroughly. > Nina. Nina, I will again bring up a point I made to Sarah, which is that of the question of how I'm going to proceed. I have /wanted/ to establish myself in the four foundations of mindfulness, that is, mindfulness of breathing, posture, the four elements, of feelings, of consciousness, and of dhammas, but I don't know how feasible it is to do so at the computer while learning a bit of Abhidharma here and there. It seems my options are to do programming at the computer (which is good, make myself a shelter from anguish, do work, goodness, which is spoken of highly in the layperson's code of discipline as well as the Dhammika sutta ( http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/khuddaka/suttanipata/snp2-14.html ) that I read recently which basically says a laymen who observes the eight precepts, observes uposatha days, gives alms to the sangha, and supports his mother and father goes to a heavenly realm called the 'self-radiant devas.' Well that's not a bad fallback plan from enlightenment. I'd know I'd be safe from going to the states of woe. So that can be my fallback, and least I'll know I'm established in the good. But then there's the question of how much of the foundations of mindfulness I can establish myself in, and how often. I surmise it would be rather difficult to keep practising all four foundations as a bhikku would, but while I'm living at home with my parents, so I would really only be left with a few options, to practise outside untiringly day and night to acheive sainthood, to take ordination, or to make it an on-and-off affair. I'm not particularly fond of the latter, and of the former two, I see myself having the most freedom if I can practise as a layperson on the streets (I do have renunciation). So I'd best be diligent in getting this understanding of Abhidharma so I can begin practising dharma in earnest sometime in the relatively near future. I mean, how much knowledge of citta and cetasikas is necessary for contemplation of consciousness? How much nama and rupa do you guys try to observe? I'm shooting for 100% here. I've done it with feelings, posture, and perhaps breathing before, I don't see why it should be any different with the rest of the body (the elements) and dhammas and consciousness. So, let me know what you think is necessary for contemplation of consciousness, taking into account of the fact that I want to be mindful of *everything* going on in the psycho-physical complex called Andrew, because 30 minutes of vipassana a day will just not cut it. peace, al 35911 From: plnao Date: Tue Aug 31, 2004 5:35pm Subject: from "Deeds of Merit" Ch. 2 Correction of Views > knowing what kusala is, 10 meritous actions Hello all I was reminded the other day that I started to post some passages from "Deeds of Merit" by K Sujin (available at Zolag) some months ago but stopped for some reason or other after Ch.1. I would like to continue now. I am interested these days in how we can develop our understanding of kusala so as to know when there are opportunities for it. I will go on to Ch. 2 now and post very short passages day by day. (One highlight of chapter 1 on generosity that I was reminded of this morning by Rob M's post about visiting the family of his student who died was this : "The person who did not perform wholesome deeds himself, but who rejoices in the wholesome deeds of someone else, has kusala cittas, cittas without attachment, anger, jealousy or other defilements. The appreciation of someone else's kusala is another way of kusala. Its arising is conditioned by the kusala of someone else. This way of kusala is called in Paali: pattanumodana." Another was this: "Besides the above mentioned ways of kusala there is still another way. When we have performed a deed of generosity there can again be kusala cittas afterwards. We can reflect on the daana or generous deed we have performed with cittas which are calm and pure. Thus, when someone has accumulated the inclination and habit to perform deeds of generosity, and he reflects time and again on his deeds, the cittas will be more and more peaceful, pure and steadfast in kusala") from Ch. 2 Correction of Views S: "For someone who knows what kusala is, kusala citta has the opportunity to arise more often than for someone who does not know what kusala is. Besides, we do not have to wait for a specific moment to have kusala citta." Ph: This is what is motivating me to read this book now. "We do not have to wait..." I am deeply grateful to have come across K Sujin's teaching but due to my beginner's misunderstanding there is a tendency to believe that experiences of kusala are very rare and not to be expected in daily life because everything is beyond our control, etc, and akusala cittas are so much more prevalent. This is a reminder that kusala citta, while outnumbered by akusala, is still not as rare as something like seeing into realities in the moment through sati. S: "Daana, siila and bhaavanaa are the main principles of kusala which are developed with the purpose of eliminating defilements. They can be classified as threefold, but if they are dealt with in detail there are actually ten meritorious actions." Ph: Ok. Closed book test for me. Can I remember what they are? Generosity Correction of Views Transference of Merit Dhamma Study uhoh.... Can you all do better than I did? (wink) Metta, Phil 35912 From: Andrew Levin Date: Tue Aug 31, 2004 5:43pm Subject: Just thought I'd let you know Anders Honore, a contributor to the Buddhism web forum 'E-Sangha' sends all you folk at dhammastudygroup his regards. -al 35913 From: plnao Date: Tue Aug 31, 2004 6:03pm Subject: Re: [dsg] What should I do Hi Andrew I know you're hoping to hear from more skillful parishioners like Nina but it's my day off and I'm overdoing it with the posts again. >How much practitioners and rupa do you guys >try to observe? I'm shooting for 100% here. I would like to have another moment of insight into nama and rupa - deep insight into them like I had the other day while teaching. (see post on "Removing Distracting Thoughts") I feel it was the second one I've had. in the 9 months or so since I came across Abhidhamma. Who knows when the next one will arise? This is a stock answer, maybe, but I think we cannot *try* to observe anything without being directed by a self who wants to observe. i.e wrong view of self. For what it's worth, this is how I look at it these day: A few occasions of insight into rupa and nama a year, maybe. And in the meantime as much and as deep intellectual understanding of them as possible through diligent study and discussion in order to help condition the more regular arising of true insight in this lifetime - very, very, very unlikely, I feel- or one of the countless ones to come. Sometimes I'm walking and find myself knowing "I'm walking" or "there is hardness under my feet" but it doesn't feel very especially valuable to me. I sense there is a self who is thinking "I'm walking" and feels pleased to be thinking it because it is what that monk does in the Satipatthana sutta. It is when those (in my case only two this year) moments of insight arise and fall like flashes of lightning beyond self-control that I feel deeply encouraged. Metta, Phil 35914 From: robmoult Date: Tue Aug 31, 2004 6:10pm Subject: Metta in Daily Life Hi All, A while back, I attended a dhamma talk on metta. During the Q&A session afterwards, a lady asked the monk, "I have problems with a person at work. Every day, I go home and radiate metta to her for an hour. I have been doing this for some time but there is no change in her behaviour. What should I try next?" Many people think of metta as something that is done on a cushion. It is naïve to think that one can fill one's day with fault-finding and negative thinking and then expect the mind to completely change direction when we sit in meditation. Metta must be put into our daily life. There is an extremely simple and extremely powerful way of doing this - SMILE. In daily life, we are constantly interacting with other people. Smiling makes a huge positive impact on these interactions. Last week, I arrived in India at 2:00 in the morning (local time) after a flight that was not long enough to get a good sleep. I was waiting in the immigration queue for more than an hour. As I waited, I thought with compassion of the immigration officer. This scenario repeated itself every day. Each day, he had to face a room full of people, many of whom would be in a bad mood due to impatience and lack of sleep. When it was my turn, I gave that immigration officer a huge smile as he processed my passport. You know what? He smiled back. Smiling at people puts a warm feeling inside, often a good sign of kusala. Often, people smile back and that is a bonus. A couple of months ago, I was stopped at a red light and I was in a really good mood. All of a sudden, BUMP, the car behind me hit my rear bumper. I got out of my car to inspect the damage and the driver of the other car also got out. I looked at my bumper and looked at the lady driving the other car. I had a big smile on my face and I said, "No damage, no problem. I hope that you have a really great day!" Her jaw dropped and she started to smile as we got back into our respective cars. In AN XI.16, the Buddha listed the eleven qualities of metta. These included being protected by devas and being protected from danger. Metta did not protect my car from being rear-ended. However, the difficulties we face are 1% from external sources and 99% of our own making. The real danger, the real problems, come from the mental proliferation that arises in our own mind in response to external stimuli. This is how metta protects us. A tablespoon of salt in a small glass of water will ruin the taste. A tablespoon of salt in a lake has no impact. In both cases, the same amount of bad stuff (a tablespoon of salt) exists; hey, salt happens! However, the impact depends on the expansiveness of the container. Metta protects us by expanding the size of our container. To conclude what happened at the dhamma talk, the monk replied, "Metta is not like some psychic lightning. Get off your cushion and put metta into action by being nice to the person with whom you are having problems." I encourage all members of DSG to put metta into action by smiling at many people today, especially to those who are closest to us, yet don't see us smile enough. Metta, Rob M :-) 35915 From: plnao Date: Tue Aug 31, 2004 6:17pm Subject: Re: [dsg] What should I do Hello again. An afterthought. Then I really will stop posting. Come to think of it, I *do* feel there is something between the lightning flash insights that are so rare and self-directed trying to observe which can be all too common. The other day I was at the cash register in the supermarket and a man came running up and passed two small cakes to his wife, who was ahead of me in line. They were for his children, and there was mudita at the scene. As I paid, the wife in question came back to the cashier with her receipt, wanting, I assumed, to complain about something. Now there was dosa, irritation, because it seemed like she was infringing on *my* transaction. As I went to pack my groceries, I heard her laugh kindly, and there was metta. So there was observation of nama in an uncontrolled way, and yes, this can go on a lot, can't it? I think I was mistaken to suggest that meaningful moments of insight have to be so rare. But the truly deep ones are. Lots of meaningful ones. But only a few deep, deep ones. Now I'll get off the computer! Metta, Phil ----- Original Message ----- From: "plnao" To: Sent: Wednesday, September 01, 2004 10:03 AM Subject: Re: [dsg] What should I do > > Hi Andrew > > I know you're hoping to hear from more skillful parishioners like Nina but > it's my day off and I'm overdoing it with the posts again. > > >How much practitioners and rupa do you guys > >try to observe? I'm shooting for 100% here. > > I would like to have another moment of insight into nama and rupa - deep > insight into them like I had the other day while teaching. (see post on > "Removing Distracting Thoughts") I feel it was the second one I've had. in > the 9 months or so since I came across Abhidhamma. Who knows when the next > one will arise? This is a stock answer, maybe, but I think we cannot *try* > to observe anything without being directed by a self who wants to observe. > i.e wrong view of self. > For what it's worth, this is how I look at it these day: A few occasions of > insight into rupa and nama a year, maybe. And in the meantime as much and as > deep intellectual understanding of them as possible through diligent study > and discussion in order to help condition the more regular arising of true > insight in this lifetime - very, very, very unlikely, I feel- or one of the > countless ones to come. > Sometimes I'm walking and find myself knowing "I'm walking" or "there is > hardness under my feet" but it doesn't feel very especially valuable to me. > I sense there is a self who is thinking "I'm walking" and feels pleased to > be thinking it because it is what that monk does in the Satipatthana sutta. > It is when those (in my case only two this year) moments of insight arise > and fall like flashes of lightning beyond self-control that I feel deeply > encouraged. > > Metta, > Phil > 35916 From: Andrew Levin Date: Tue Aug 31, 2004 7:18pm Subject: Re: What should I do --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "plnao" wrote: > > Hi Andrew > > I know you're hoping to hear from more skillful parishioners like Nina but > it's my day off and I'm overdoing it with the posts again. > > >How much practitioners and rupa do you guys > >try to observe? I'm shooting for 100% here. > > I would like to have another moment of insight into nama and rupa - deep > insight into them like I had the other day while teaching. (see post on > "Removing Distracting Thoughts") I feel it was the second one I've had. in > the 9 months or so since I came across Abhidhamma. Who knows when the next > one will arise? Alright, let's try to get each other in line with what we're talking about. I haven't studied Vism. much well, but I do know that the first insight knowledge is delineation of mind and matter. Its requisite conditions are purification of virtue, the principles of insight meditation, that is, clearly comprehending one of the three dharma seals in each phenomenon, and the three types of energy to initiate and sustain meditation on the meditation subject. I don't see how this can be easily established without a good session on the cushion with attention to the meditation subject being wholly sustained in the time thereafter. The knowledge you should get is that there is physical breath, mental noticing, physical breath, mental noticing. Are we on the same page here? Because this type of thing is difficult to establish onesself in in the first place, I *don't* imagine that casual observance of nama and rupa could give rise to this initial insight, but then again, if it encompasses enough range it just might be. So let me know. > This is a stock answer, maybe, but I think we cannot *try* > to observe anything without being directed by a self who wants to observe. > i.e wrong view of self. What you are saying is that there is that there is a self that directs the processes and that this is equivalent to wrong view of self. This is not consistent. Whatsoever in the psycho-physical organism that is the mindfulness, or attention factor, can apply itself, or be applied, or be developed and extended to apply, to all observable phenomenon if the conditions are right. This is possible, this is the 100% observance I am talking about. As for wrong view, holding to a doctrine of self is 'wrong' but I'd say equating that with 'wrong view' is iffy at best. The common ground is seeing the impermanence of phenomenon and that they can therefore have no such thing as an abiding 'self'. Entering into right view is another matter, however. In MN 9, Ven. Sariputta gives us a few different doors to enter into right view, the common space being understanding. Dependent Origination is a door (eg sense base + sense object->contact->feeling), as is the understanding of nutriment, the sixfold sense base, and a few others I can't recall off-hand. Right view has also been spoken of us undistorted knowledge that there is 'this world, the next world, mother, father, and [preists who have declared this world and the next with their own direct knowledge]', so as I see it we either have to develop understanding of these things that Venerable Sariputta gave a sermon on (I find taking a nice, slow, mindful walk will help to know what's going on), or we can try to 'straighten our views'- getting rid of nihilistic views, coming to see through one's own practise the truths of karma, rebirth, or an afterlife, etc. This is right view. Now the Blessed One has said that right view is the root from which all the other path factors spring, right intention falling in right after right view, right speech falling in after right intention. That's the deeper meaning of right view. A more conventional definition of right view might be seeing the true nature of reality, that is to say, impermenence and selflessness, and not craving or clinging to anything while seeing that. Right view can come about through vipassana meditation (that is to say, breath meditation), but not through mindfulness of the other factors of the path, at least as far as I know. > For what it's worth, this is how I look at it these day: A few occasions of > insight into rupa and nama a year, maybe. And in the meantime as much and as > deep intellectual understanding of them as possible through diligent study > and discussion in order to help condition the more regular arising of true > insight in this lifetime - very, very, very unlikely, I feel- or one of the > countless ones to come. Well you are taking into account that the dispensation only has another 2,400 years to go or so on, so that's 30 some odd lifetimes before not a word of the Buddha exists on Earth, so if you're going to go that route you might want to ensure you're really /on track/. I do want to know though, how much nama and rupa do you typically observe, and how can we reconcile it with the framework of insight knowledges as laid out in the commentaries? This is a key point for me as it could determine what course I take. > Sometimes I'm walking and find myself knowing "I'm walking" or "there is > hardness under my feet" but it doesn't feel very especially valuable to me. > I sense there is a self who is thinking "I'm walking" and feels pleased to > be thinking it because it is what that monk does in the Satipatthana sutta. > It is when those (in my case only two this year) moments of insight arise > and fall like flashes of lightning beyond self-control that I feel deeply > encouraged. That sense of "I'm walking" is a thorough knowledge of posture that can be maintained for a long time- even throughout a lifetime- this gives you an idea of how I want to practise with the body and the rest of the foundations of mindfulness. > > Metta, > Phil peace, AL 35917 From: Date: Tue Aug 31, 2004 4:31pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Just thought I'd let you know Hi, Andrew - In a message dated 8/31/04 8:43:54 PM Eastern Daylight Time, andrewlevin@e... writes: > Anders Honore, a contributor to the Buddhism web forum 'E-Sangha' > sends all you folk at dhammastudygroup his regards. > > -al > ======================== Thanks for passing on the greeting! Please say hello to Anders from me, and also please let him know that I often access his wonderful website! With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 35918 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Aug 31, 2004 9:22pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Tiika Vis. XIV, 93 Htoo. Dear Htoo, wonderful. I wish I knew Burmese. Now you could perhaps compare sometimes, but I only translate partially and use dots when I cannot make out or when it is too long for me. You know, when I see an English term I have the same as you: I do not feel anything. I like the word santiiranacitta, but when I see investigating consciousness it does not mean much to me. Nina. op 31-08-2004 12:11 schreef htootintnaing op htootintnaing@y...: > > Dear Nina, > > The Venerable's message is complete. It is mentioned that from 'Tiika > page 398-400 '. It is Burmese ( Myanmar )translation. > > Htoo 35919 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Aug 31, 2004 9:22pm Subject: Re: [dsg] XIV 109, Oops and Htoo. Hi Sarah and Larry, I really had to laugh when I read Larry's Oops... I was already alarmed when I saw Vis. XIV, 109, then I would have to hurry. I wanted already to warn Larry off line. As to Larry's questions, of course, these things cannot be forced. We cannot ask questions just in order to ask questions. But questions are always welcome, and Larry's questions (but don't force) help to make myself and others consider more. Htoo will come in too with remarks and questions, I think. Nina. op 31-08-2004 11:16 schreef sarah abbott op sarahprocterabbott@y...: >> Oops. Wrong address. I meant to send this to myself. Please disregard >> 109 for now. > ... > I'm doing as requested, but can't we share in these discussions between > you and yourself? I'd like to hear more of your reflections and miss all > the Qs you used to have for Nina, yourself and others....;-)he path......;-) > Look forward to more on 109 in due course.... > 35920 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Aug 31, 2004 9:22pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Busy Day and a Lesson Dear Rob M, I love your story and the lesson. I shall tell Lodewijk. That is what he always says: there are no limits to metta and generosity. And one does not realize how much one has helped a certain person by even a small gesture. You give us a wonderful reminder, thank you. And I like the sutta. Nina. op 31-08-2004 17:39 schreef robmoult op rob.moult@j...: I was reminded of the Buddha's words (Iti 26): > "If beings knew, as I know, the results of giving & sharing, they > would not eat without having given, nor would the stain of > miserliness overcome their minds. Even if it were their last bite, > their last mouthful, they would not eat without having shared, if > there were someone to receive their gift. But because beings do not > know, as I know, the results of giving & sharing, they eat without > having given. The stain of miserliness overcomes their minds." 35921 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Aug 31, 2004 9:22pm Subject: Re: [dsg]Path of Discrimination. Hi Howard, True, in order to appreciate these texts you need quite a lot of background, and this should not be something that you should force, using immense efforts. As I said, you need the Visuddhimagga too in order to appreciate what is said about sila. It should come naturally over the years. So, many years later when you take it up you may find helpful what you did not like before. Nina. op 31-08-2004 17:53 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: > such as works by Nyanananda Bhikkhu, Nyanaponika > Thera, Bhikku Bodhi, Ayya Khema, and Peter Harvey, plus (Budhhaghosa forbid!) > Mahayana works. 35922 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Sep 1, 2004 0:39am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Bagels, Forest & Happy Walks Hi AL, Here’s my delayed post on this topic. Awareness & Spotlights ================== You asked for an example of how awareness can arise. Let’s say we’ve just read the exerpt Larry posted about seeing consciousness which cognizes visible object with eye-sense as a necessary condition. If wise considering and awareness have been accumulated, such further reading or reflecting can be a condition for awareness to arise and be aware right now of seeing or visible object or any other dhamma appearing. This is not by ‘yearning’ or shining a spotlight on these or any other realities. If there is no detachment or patience with regard to what is conditioned, but instead there’s wishing or focussing on another object, then awareness is impossible. Reflections & Cool :0) =============== By reflections on cittas, cetasikas and rupas, I don’t mean just thinking and trying to see or know them. I mean really beginning to understand what is being experienced now, conditioned by having heard, read and considered about these dhammas. We wish to develop awareness, but it begins to develop when there’s no wishing and so the ‘cool’ quality is in the giving up of the wishing and not expecting any special results or non-results :0) Seeing the truths expounded in the texts.... ============================== Yes, if there isn’t any appreciation or ‘click’ factor in what we hear or read from the texts, right understanding cannot develop. Mentality-Materiality aka nama-rupa ========================== Just as you say, the clear knowledge of nama and rupa is the first stage of insight knowledge. It is cultivated by clearly understanding and being aware of namas and rupas over and over again when they appear, clearly understanding them as dhammas, not self. You mentioned you are interested in studying the Vism in this regard. Pls join in any of the present Vism extracts Nina and Larry are posting. We think that we see objects, but there is merely seeing consciousness which sees visible object. At the moment of seeing, there is no other world....no hearing, no thinking....just seeing. Awareness can be aware of any reality now, depending on understanding. A ‘feel’ for Posture ============= We all know that postures seem real, but it’s only a kind of thinking. No reality is known at the moments when postures seem real, but the thinking can be known. No need to try to do anything special, AL. You’ll find awareness develops very naturally when this tangle of concepts and realities is sorted out. Nimitta and signs ============= In the development of vipassana, the characteristic of the present reality is the nimitta or sign. There is no question of needing any special ‘breath nimitta’ or using ‘concentration even for other bodily movements’. Again, this is thinking, prompted by ideas of self and controlling dhammas, rather than the development of detachment. Solid Practise ============ You mentioned that you are waiting before beginning ‘my solid practise’. There’s no need for waiting and awareness arises when it’s time regardless of any ideas about waiting. Whilst thinking about waiting or focussing or concentrating, awareness can be aware of the thinking and view at these times. I don’t think practise (patipatti) is ever solid or fluid;-) It just refers to moments of satipatthana which accumulate and develop naturally. The most important thing is to understand any wrong views arising, otherwise they keep taking us off-track. Walking Meditation =============== Momentary concentration is always arising as I said and as we’ll get to in ch6, ‘Cetasikas’. It won’t be the ‘walking meditation’ as such that culminates in insight, but rather any moments of satipatthana arising and developing whilst walking, whilst eating, whilst washing, whilst writing and so on. The activity is a concept. The cittas and mental states arising during the javana process after seeing, hearing and so on, are what will make the difference. Switching ========= You asked about switching between knowing feelings and other namas and rupas. It’s not a matter of switching so much as just understanding momentarily what is appearing, or what is the object of awareness at anytime without preference. Nowhere in the Satipatthana Sutta or elsewhere is there any suggestion of ‘practising them (the four foundations) concurrently’. Again and again we read there is one citta at a time only, taking one object. Elements, Nama and Rupa ====================== AL: > One thing I'm not clear on and still having some difficulty with: > when the wind hits my skin, and I contemplate on the Earth element in that contact, isn't that softness experienced through the body sense, so it's nama too, not rupa? ... S: The softness experienced through the body sense is rupa. The experiencing of it is nama. The subsequent contemplating about it is nama. What is contemplated, i.e the thought is a concept, not a reality. .... AL:>Or is the contact phassa, therefore nama? ... S: Yes. It’s one of the universal cetasikas accompanying all cittas including these ones, helping the cittas and other cetasikas to ‘touch’ their objects. .... AL: > And then feeling is also nama, even though it feels like it's being experienced outside of mind? ... S: There is the feeling (nama) accompanying the body consciousness citta which experienced the softness and there are further feelings accompanying the other cittas in both the sense door and mind door processes (also namas). So, like phassa, vedana (feeling) accompanies each citta to ‘taste’ the object, whether it be softness or a subsequent concept of softness. .... Awareness and LSD trips =================== Awareness or satipatthana has to be accompanied by understanding which knows directly the reality being experienced. The awareness you describe as associated with a trip is not accompanied by understanding and doesn’t have realities as objects. Like in a dream or trance when the conceptual world seems so very real, but actually its one’s imagination and the fantasy world, the awareness of one’s surroundings, the being in tune with nature and so on is not arising as the result of developed wholesome states, but as a result of ignorance and attachment. Hence the end of trip blues. Satipatthana and all wholesome states are light and calm and don’t bring any blues. Don’t confuse them or crave the latter;-) There’s only one way.... Cetasikas and Practise ================== AL: > OK. Hope I can read cetasikas and gain some understanding on it to apply to practise. .... S: Looks like it’s going very well. Metta, Sarah p.s Give my best regards to Anders too..... I always enjoyed and appreciated my discussions with him - another very bright and sincere young man. p.p.s. General Post # 35725 ====================== S: You mentioned that you were going to ‘take less drugs N.Y. state mandates...’. Al, I sympathise, but please coordinate with the minders rather than taking the question of prescriptions into your own hands with side-effects and withdrawal problems etc.....I think the trust and honesty would be more in line with the Dhp verse below, but we can discuss it further if you like. Also, no need to make any fixed rules about keeping ‘absolutely quiet in real life’. That concerns me rather. I once had a student who refused to talk at all in school. It’s very unnatural and causes great concern to those around. A: >Dhammapada says, "Better to do nothing than to do what is wrong, for whatever you do, you do to yourself" >Now some borderline worries/concerns , all in line with Dhammapada sayings: >- The person who lives carelessly jumps from lifetime to lifetime like a monkey in a mango tree. - I've been living carelessly but it's never too late to stop it, right? This is why I want to do good. So my next life is good. - The Kashta reed dies when it bears fruit. So the fool, Scorning the teachings of the awakened, Spurning those who follow the law, Perishes when his folly flowers. >Similarly with a verse I'm paraphrasing "All feel the touch of death, but while fools lies slain by their folly, the sage is forever unperturbed" >Well I have felt the touch of death while being caught up in mischief and folly. I want reassurance that I can still follow the way and do good work to bring me good results in the next life. .... S: These are all wise reflections and developing understanding is the highest good of all. As far as I can see, you’re on a very fast learning curve and doing fine, AL;-). I’m very impressed by your honest reflections and questioning. ====================================================== 35923 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Sep 1, 2004 1:40am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Cooran 13-15 August, 2004 Hi KenH, Nina & Htoo. (Also RobM & Phil at the end) A few technical bits....and some parrotting here....;-) --- kenhowardau wrote: > If a jhana meditator were to be so fortunate as to also be > instructed in satipatthana, then he might, one day, directly see > jhana-citta in a moment of satipatthana. But the object of jhana- > citta (being a mere concept) will never be seen with satipatthana. ... S: yes....a citta or cetasika, but never the concept. ... > (Addendum: I will admit I am not sure if there isn't an exception in > the case of meditation on breath. At some point in DSG's > discussions, I gained the impression that the highest form of jhana > absorption actually has rupa as its object. I am pretty sure now > that I misunderstood what I was reading, but there is still that > niggling confusion.) .... Breath is a concept, but of course the softness or other sense objects can be objects of satipatthana. What I think you’re vaguely recalling is that the only two exceptions to jhana taking concept as object are the 2nd and 4th arupavacara cittas which take the 1st and 3rd arupavacara cittas respectively as their objects (by way of navatabbrammana -not so classifiable objects). Htoo also mentioned these in his fine series on cittas #35816. He mentioned there are six cittas involved as for each there is arupakusala, arupavipaka and arupakiriya (in the case of arahants only). Nina, on your question about navatabbrammana, I wrote this post before: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/32619 You asked me to raise this qu with K. Sujin which I did at lunch time as it’s rather a technical point and not so suitable for general discussion. ..... Nina:>Another point: navatabba arammana (not so classifiable objects) , thus, also the sense object just fallen away that is taken up by the mind-door cittas? I try to look at texts to find this. ... K.Sujin stressed that this was so. It’s the ‘sign’ of the sense object that is experienced by the mind door cittas. She said that when one understands how nibbana can be the object for subsequent cittas (after lokuttara), then one knows that it’s the same for sense objects experienced by mind door cittas-- by way of navatabbarammana. It’s not necessary to say it in the texts because its understood. Htoo, I continue to appreciate and learn from your series on cittas (Dhamma Thread). I thought 046 #35653 was an especially important one to clarify clearly that not all the iriya cittas of arahants are accompanied by wisdom as many people think. ... Htoo: >When there is a great joy, the first four cittas arise and when there is just equanimity, then the last four cittas arise. Even though they are arahats, nana [S: wisdom] may or may not arise while doing these actions and when without nana, then nana vippayutta cittas have to arise. .... S: Thank you for these and also for sharing your comments on RobM’s book. They are very helpful comments indeed. He's fortunate to have your kind assistance. Did you refer to nibbana as ‘existence’? I’m not sure if we can say this, but have lost my note, so ignore it if this wasn’t your word. Also Phil and anyone else, pls post your comments on the book to share with us all too;-) Htoo, with regard to the Vism passages which Larry is posting, you can find the Vism in Pali for ch X1V with the same numbering system Larry is using in a file added by Jim at the bottom of the files section. (Btw, it’s best to download materials from the files section as RobM mentioned, as we often have to remove items as there’s very limited space). Htoo, I may come back on our jhana thread later;-) Metta, Sarah ====== 35924 From: jwromeijn Date: Wed Sep 1, 2004 1:46am Subject: Re: Bill against religious conversion Dear Christine Thanks for your answers. When I found this DSG-Forum some months ago, I thought it was a rather anonymous place to put questions, information and opinions about (Theravada-)Dhamma. But after your answers I realize better that's (also) a medium of communication of a group of people who know each other for some years and meet in Sri Lanka, Thailand en perhaps in Australia (Cooran mentioned many time must be a village somewhere?) So it was this difference in perception of the Forum that I put my (perhaps to aggressive) questions. Well I like the idea going with this group to Thailand this (European) winter, must be a great (spiritual) experience. I read your (and other) messages of the trip to Sri Lanka two years ago and could identity myself with it. There are two Dhamma-points in your letter I want to say something about, Christine: The anti-religious conversion law in Sri Lanka. After I conversed myself to Buddhism my first western-liberal opinion anti religious conversion was negative. But after some reflections I have my doubts: I realize there are only three Theravada countries in the world and I hope Theravada has a long future so it's bad when it will only be a minority-"religion" in Sri Lanka. But such a law will not work, it's to defensive, it will be better when Theravada will be modernized and got more dynamic, more vital. My (superficial) opinion of Thailand is that buddhism there is more future-directed as in Sri Lanka: this law is Perhaps it's to western but I think "state" and "religion" must be divided from each other, no reference in a Constitution to christianity and not to buddhism (etcetera of course). I have my doubts about monks active in political parties, some of them were not really pacifistic in the civil war between Singalese and Tamil in Sri Lanka. (df the book of Tambiah "Buddhism betrayed") Then the quote "The trouble is that you think you have time" Christine: "… need to remember that the Buddha taught the dangers of rebirth. That very very few are reborn in human form …" Joop: I don't know if really the (pali-terms of) "dangers of rebirth" are written in a Sutta but if, then I had to say again that I'm only for three quarters a Theravadin: I don't want to live with such anxieties, I don't have them. I realise that I can die every moment now and I know I had not to postpone to work with that knowledge and I think I do: buddhism is the most important thing in my life now. But "not postpone" is not the same as "hurry". So I have time; on what "stage" or "step" of the path I am when I die, doesn't bother me, I have faith in what I do now. Partly it's something else but I like to read and contemplate on the phenemena "time" itself. Cf the essays of Nyanaponika and Karunadasa (in: www.lankalibrary.com/Bud/time.htm) about the question if 'time" is a concept (pannatti) or a ultimate reality (paramattha). Metta Joop 35925 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Sep 1, 2004 1:56am Subject: Re: [dsg] Profit of Hi Agrios, --- agriosinski wrote: > thank you for this explanation Sarah. > seems that you call "awareness of realities" what I call direct > realization. > would you show me the difference? .... S: It may just be a matter of terminology, but I would say there has to be a lot of awareness of realities (satipatthana) and development of wisdom (patipatti) before there can be direct realization (pativedha) at moments of insight knowledge and enlightenment. ... S:>> No 'hunt and seek' for > > rupas;-) Just begin to understand what is appearing right now. .... A:> I do understand. But I am aware it is five senses consciousness I am > aware of, > and not rupa. That's why I am drilling this subject... > I only know rupas from other people saying it. ... S: That’s OK. At least you appreciate that the rupas are distinct from the sense consciousness and understand theoretically at least that they’re conditioned dhammas, distinct from namas. It’ll depend on many different conditions what will appear at any moment to cittas in the mind door process and what will be the objects of awareness. No rule at all. What you describe is common when awareness begins to develop and it’s good that you appreciate that there isn’t any awareness of rupas yet. Patience;-) .... > well, one profit of reading this sutta [S: MN2] is, that there is no way to > belive > that it is me who has all this opinions, views etc. Seems mind has them, > one day this one, and another some other etc. ... S: Exactly! This is why we read that there is nothing as rapidly changing and fickle as the mind. SN22:100 (8) “Even that picture called ‘Faring On’ has been designed in its diverstiy by the mind, yet the mind is even more diverse than that picture called ‘Faring On’. “Therefore, bhikkhus, one should often reflect upon one’s own mind thus: ‘For a long time this mind has been defiled by lust, hatred, and delusio.’ Through the defilements of the mind beings are defiled; with the cleansing of the mind beings are purified.” .... A: > It feels nice to see this as it happens. > I am little afraid I am loosing my mind, but since it feels good.... > ;) ... S: Hopefully it’s the illusion of self that’s being lost and that’s liberating;-) Good reflections, Agrios. Look forward to more of your posts. Metta, Sarah ===== 35926 From: agriosinski Date: Wed Sep 1, 2004 6:27am Subject: Re: Profit of Hi Sarah, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > I would say there has to be > a lot of awareness of realities (satipatthana) and development of wisdom > (patipatti) before there can be direct realization (pativedha) at moments > of insight knowledge and enlightenment. > ... > S:>> No 'hunt and seek' for > > > rupas;-) Just begin to understand what is appearing right now. Yeah :) I've been lookng for the universal world of rupas out there... somwhere 'outside of me'. I am looking no more. > A:> I do understand. But I am aware it is five senses consciousness I am > > aware of, > > and not rupa. That's why I am drilling this subject... > > I only know rupas from other people saying it. > ... > S: That's OK. At least you appreciate that the rupas are distinct from the > sense consciousness and understand theoretically at least that they're > conditioned dhammas, distinct from namas. I am not aware of any distinction of rupas from conciousness. Seems, there is only namarupa. There is just lot of thinking about rupa. Kind of: vinnana -> sanna -> vitaka ->vicara -> wzzuuum.... >It'll depend on many different > conditions what will appear at any moment to cittas in the mind door > process and what will be the objects of awareness. No rule at all. What > you describe is common when awareness begins to develop and it's good that > you appreciate that there isn't any awareness of rupas yet. Patience;-) :0) learning this one... [...] thanks for the sutta. metta, Agrios. 35927 From: Date: Wed Sep 1, 2004 3:35am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Profit of Hi, Agrios and Sarah - In a message dated 9/1/04 9:29:08 AM Eastern Daylight Time, agriosinski@y... writes: > Hi Sarah, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott < > sarahprocterabbott@y...> wrote: > >I would say there has to be > >a lot of awareness of realities (satipatthana) and development of wisdom > >(patipatti) before there can be direct realization (pativedha) at moments > >of insight knowledge and enlightenment. > >... > >S:>> No 'hunt and seek' for > >>>rupas;-) Just begin to understand what is appearing right now. > > Yeah :) > I've been lookng for the universal world of rupas out there... > somwhere 'outside of me'. > I am looking no more. > ------------------------------------------------- Howard: I agree that it is best not to look for rupas, per se, but I would not say not to look for whatever turns out to really be there. As I meditate on the breath, after a degree of calm sets in, I turn the attention to a careful investigating of what there may actually be where there *seems* to be "breath". That careful investigation increases clarity and calm, and, after a while, "breath" disappears, and there remains just a flow of touch, softness, warmth, etc, and sometimes there remains nothing at all but not a blacking out either. It "pays" to attend. ------------------------------------------------ > > >A:> I do understand. But I am aware it is five senses consciousness I am > >>aware of, > >>and not rupa. That's why I am drilling this subject... > >>I only know rupas from other people saying it. > >... > >S: That's OK. At least you appreciate that the rupas are distinct from the > >sense consciousness and understand theoretically at least that they're > >conditioned dhammas, distinct from namas. > > I am not aware of any distinction of rupas from conciousness. > Seems, there is only namarupa. > There is just lot of thinking about rupa. > Kind of: vinnana -> sanna -> vitaka ->vicara -> wzzuuum.... ---------------------------------------------------- Howard: And "I" am increasingly aware of there not being consciousness! Just experiential content which is mentality-physicality. Just content - just what is present and its being present. ----------------------------------------------------- > > >It'll depend on many different > >conditions what will appear at any moment to cittas in the mind door > >process and what will be the objects of awareness. No rule at all. What > >you describe is common when awareness begins to develop and it's good that > >you appreciate that there isn't any awareness of rupas yet. Patience;-) > > :0) > learning this one... > > [...] > thanks for the sutta. > metta, > Agrios. > ========================= With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 35928 From: htootintnaing Date: Wed Sep 1, 2004 8:47am Subject: Rob M'sTheory Behind The Buddha's Smile ( 03 ) by Htoo Dear Dhamma Friends, This is a good ebook called 'Theory Behind the Buddha's Smile' written by Rob M and this ebook can be viewed at 'Files' section. The messages there are very clear and they are non-tiring to read. I would like to discuss on a number of things there in that ebook. This post is the 3rd post on this topic. This is for easy-searching of the message. From page 17 to page 20. 1. Page 17 ' The sense door process starts when an external object comes into existence.' This sounds right. But for thoughtful people they would deny for accuracy. When an external object comes into existence, sense door process cannot still start. Even with the greatest or the clearest object cause 3 moments delay. This is used to compared with a running man. A man is running. He is stopped by someone. As soon as he knows he has to stop, he cannot stop straight away. Instead he has to step 2 or 3 paces. Like this bhavanga cittas are like running man. This means these cittas are arising continuously without any disturbances. As soon as a sense impression arise that is 'when an external object comes', one bhavanga citta passes away. And a further 2 bhavanga cittas have to die out. After that 'SDP' sense-door-process starts. 2. Very great / Great / Slight / Very slight Object Even though I can sense these words, I think other alternatives will be more suitable. Because objects do not have to be slight. Examples are Very clear, Clear, Dim, Very dim.(more like for vision) Very strong, Strong, Weak, Very weak. Maybe other alternatives would work. 3. page 18 In the table, there are requisites for sense-consciousness. It is stated that 1. light, 2.space, 3. air, 4. water, 5. earth. I think, they should be 1. light, 2. media ( because we can hear when we are in water, in air, or when our ear is in touch with some physical object sound can be transmitted through material. This may be louder than in air. And in the space we cannot hear.), 3. air, 4. water ( Pali says 'Aapa' which means saliva ), 5. earth ( this may not make sense for some learners. It is thaddha pathavi. That is conductional pathavi rupa. I prefer 'nerve'. Because all bodily sensations are carried by nerves. When nerves are cut, there is no sensation. Earth here makes no sense. 4. Page 18 'Rupas enter into the process.' Rupas involve in the process? Rupa cannot enter nama dhamma. Nama dhamma just know rupa dhamma. But understandable. I think, 'involve' will be more appropriate. 5. Page 19 The eye-consciousness mental state has eye sensitivity as a base; it is located in the physical eye. Even though this is not wrong, those who do not know abhidhamma much may think that 'cakkhuppasada' can be physically found in the physical eye. Physical eye is just combination of pathavi, tejo, apo, vayo. Eye sense base is a sukhuma rupa or subtle material which cannot be known by eye, ear, nose, tongue, and body. 6. Page 19 ( Good point ) ' looking for distinguishing marks indicating that the object has been perceived before '. This is the best description I have ever seen how sanna or perception works. Some say sanna is apperception. 7. Page 19 '' The process is a series of empty mental states ;' there is no self behind the process to experience free-will or choose a response to the object.'' 'empty mental states'. I can sense what empty mental states here. But beginners will not understand and they will think that some mental states are empty. 8. Page 20 ' Each javana mental state in the sequence is the same.' Abhidhamma fans know this. But this has to be specify so that beginners can well understand. They are the same in terms of jati, bhumi, sampayutta, sankhara, and arammana. But they are not the same in terms of power. The 1st javana citta is the weakest and the last or 7th javana citta is the second weakest. The 1st is weakest. Because it has to pace itself. There is no record to follow. But further 5 successive javana cittas have a record. They receive the record from the foregoing javana cittas. These 5 cittas are called middle 5 javana cittas. Again the last becomes weak again. Because he has to stop and he is the last king in the dynasty. So it is not as strong as former 5 javana cittas. The 1st javana citta can give its result even in this life if conditions are fulfiled. This is seen in case of Sammasambuddhas and paccekabuddhas as offerees. The last or 7th javana citta gives rise to its effect starts from immediate next life. The middle 5 javana cittas give rise their results from the third life to as long as in the samsara. May these criticisms be beneficial. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 35929 From: htootintnaing Date: Wed Sep 1, 2004 11:02am Subject: Jhana Journey ( 09 ) Dear Dhamma Friends, Now the jhana practitioner is free of hindrances ( nivarana dhammas). He is concentrating his mind on the counter-image ( patibaga nimitta ). But as citta lasts only one billionth of a single blink, new and new cittas have to arise. Each arisen citta attends at the counter-image ( patibaga ). As cittas arise in very fast succession, it seems that there is only a single mind and it does everything. Anyway, we are discussing jhana and I will go to jhana. New and new cittas all go to the counter- image ( patibaga ). All these cittas are put on to patibaga by a mental factor ( cetasika ) called '' vitakka ''( initial application ). Vitakka ( initial application ) needs to put all the mind on patibaga. It needs to do its job successively and uninterruptedly. Doing so finally becomes that vitakka occupies as a component of the present mind. There should not be any interval without vitakka (initial application ) in between cittas. The practitioner should frequently check absence of hindrances ( nivarana ) as well as the presence of vitakka ( initial application ). He is now concentrating on the counter-image of WHITE circular kasina. He is free from all of five hindrances ( nivarana ). His mind is well calm. There is nothing in his mind but WHITE.WHITE.WHITE.WHITE....In between WHITE and WHITE there should not be any other mind. When he put his mind on WHITE, the working mental factor (cetasika ) is vitakka ( initial application ). The Jhana practitioner should practice this for a long time that he becomes accustomed to do it and finally it will become his own properties. Now at this stage the jhana vehicle which is kasina-make starts to move and the journey is already started. May you be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 35930 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Sep 1, 2004 11:10am Subject: Re: [dsg] XIV 109, oops. Hi Larry, op 01-09-2004 00:59 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > > The only thing that has occurred to me of even marginal interest is that > all the commentarial discussion on eye consciousness only has visible > data as object, ear consciousness only has sound as object, etc., is a > key element in the reasoning why consciousness is not self. If all > consciousness was considered to be the same with only differences in > objects and cetasikas then it wouldn't be so easy to argue that > consciousness is not self. N: I shall repost the Tiika here: Only one citta arises at a time and it experiences its own object according to the appropriate conditions. There is no person who sees, hears or experiences other objects or who can see and hear at the same time. Vis.: It is manifested as occupation with visible data. Tiika:Eye-consciousness that arises is to be apprehended as facing merely visible object that has arisen and thus he said, ³it is manifested as facing visible object.² > Your observation is a good reminder to consider these texts more. It helps to think also of eyebase. When in rupakkhandha we studied all these bases and learnt that seeing arises at the eybase. I quote: Eyebase is produced by kamma, we see how many conditions play their part so that seeing can arise. I am glad to reconsider such texts. I just heard from A. Sujin: We know the theory, but we may not notice the subtle clinging to my seeing, I see. Seeing appears all the time and so does visible object or colour. These have different characteristics, nama and rupa are altogether different. When we consider this over and over again, there can be conditions for the arising of direct awareness of one reality at a time. Thank you, Larry. Your observations are always appreciated by the readers, they serve as reminders. They bring the reader closer to the text. You may not always have questions but even remarks or observations about the text is useful. It gives the reader an opportunity to add something to these short, compact texts, to consider, to be aware if conditions permit. Apply the ear. The Thai Co to Patis. adds bahusutta: who listens much. Again and again, it is said. It also mentions asking questions: paripuccha. To add to the glossary of Patis. , p. 18: about meaning, this is attha, the Discrimination of attha, meaning, we also had in Vis. Attha also means: effect or fruit. Last sentence: : intentness: phara.na, pervasion, suffusion, and happiness is piti. Thus, pervading is the effect of piti. Remember Htoo's explanation of piti. We see: everything helps. No wonder Howard finds these texts impossible. Larry, it is your kusala citta (your is conventional use!) to post Visuddhimagga texts and also to add observations and questions. Confidence in kusala helps us to have no limits to the performing of kusala. When thinking of the full moon of Rob M we are reminded to perform kusala as much as we can, life is too short. We regret it later if we waste opportunities. As I said, I could have been more active in the past when you posted ADL and also the Co to satipatthanasutta. I have many Thai commentaries and there is such wealth in them, I should not let it stay only in Thailand. I do not want to regret later missed opportunities. I discovered a text in TA concerning the child, the adult and the moneychanger etc. and as soon as I have time I shall post it. We can go back even as far as that, it never gets stale. You can also go back to such texts, it is helpful. Or back to the Discriminations which are difficult for all of us. Nina. 35931 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Sep 1, 2004 11:10am Subject: Re: [dsg] The Removal of Distracting Thoughts, no 8 Dear Phil, I think my series on distracting thoughts you missed can also help. (I am just sending them now to you). It concerns the Vinaya, the monk's life, but it is so beneficial for us laypeople. The Co. stresses again good friendship. We should all help each other to have more kusala, encourage each other, such as Rob M on the full moon. Good sila should be praised, we should see the benefits of it. The benefit of the five precepts for laypeople. But we should also know that non-ariyans cannot keep them perfectly yet. That is due to lack of satipatthana, sati and pañña have not become powers (bala) yet. Being mindful of akusala thoughts, if conditions permit, but this does not mean just being passive. And I am always grateful to Howard who stresses: something can be done about akusala, we should not be passive. Exactly, the right efforts. Together with right understanding. That is the Middle Way. When I write about mindfulness of akusala I also have in mind: there can be right effort. And Howard knows and often wrote: right effort is conditioned, not self. Of course, anatta is still a word so long as we have not realized the three characteristics of realities. Thus a wrong idea of self who makes efforts is bound to come in time and again, even though we say no self makes an effort. Right effort for the development of understanding in being mindful as far as one is able to and also: cultivating conditions for all different kinds of kusala, having more confidence in kusala. op 01-09-2004 01:13 schreef plnao op plnao@j...: ... (snipped) there is a difference between being > aware of an unwholesome thought, and entertaining it. N: There may be conditions for entertaining it and even that can be object of mindfulness. It is very difficult, though. It reminds you that there are conditions, and seeing that will help not to make such a big problem of it. It is still intellectual understanding, but it helps to a degree. Regret, worry, fear, feelings of guilt, they make it worse. In being occupied so much with thoughts of lobha we do not realize all the other kinds of akusala such as ignorance, wrong view, conceit. People think lobha is ugly, but then they forget the other kinds which are also very dangerous. They should not be overlooked. Ph: ... I looked at a woman who had become an object of lust and saw her > as teeth. I did! I swear! Just like in that sutta. Of course, that moment > was conditioned by having read that sutta about the man who only sees teeth > walking by rather than the lovely woman in her bangles, > but it *did* happen. N: We can understand: conditions again, what we read conditions our thoughts, but we should not cling to such moments: now I am so good. To see her as teeth: this can remind us of elements. What is seen is visible object or colour. Seeing as teeth is samatha, then it is still *something*. This does not eradicate the self idea nor akusala. But in order to know the truth we should develop vipassana. To see realities as they are. Ph: I hesitate to do select objects. But I feel there > is a line that should not be crossed. N: We all agree. But also that is conditioned, if we just remember that, there are no dilemmas. Anyway, nobody can select the next moment, and it comes so fast, so sudden. Knowing: it is conditioned does not mean being passive, letting oneself go, accumulating ever more akusala. Yes, that is why I really wanted to translate A. Sujin's book on the Perfections, all the virtues the Bodhisatta accumulated. All of them should be developed, none excepted. Is this not active? You wrote: N: right. We always have akusala thoughts in between, coarse or subtle. It is normal and too much worry does not help, in fact it distracts from what is really important: knowing this moment now. If you would come with your problems to A. Sujin she would say: what about understanding seeing or visible object at this moment? That is right effort. If there is no development right now while you are seeing, what about difficult, tempting moments that may occur later on, in the street, in the classroom? Thus, what is important is the development of understanding now instead of worrying: will I have lobha again? That moment has not come yet. We all have different problems and it does not matter what kind of problem. The story is not important. Sarah had a beautiful experience: over the years she came to A. Sujin with her personal problems and her answer was always: what about seeing and visible object now? Is there any understanding? Sarah came to appreciate this very much. I think when we realize how little we know about seeing now it can encourage us to persevere studying all the dhammas that appear now. Then we shall not wonder about deep insight or not, or how rare it is. How could it be deep when we do not even know the difference between nama and rupa? I appreciate your posting of Wh. Deeds. I went through it with Lodewijk not long ago. Now I read aloud to him The Preserving of the Teachings (India Trip) one page after lunch, one page after dinner. It reminds me too when reading aloud about satipatthana now. The reading aloud does something. Nina. 35932 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Sep 1, 2004 11:10am Subject: Re: [dsg] Metta in Daily Life Dear Rob M, And people who smile back suddenly become beautiful. Interesting to see the change, Lodewijk and I find. The lady on the cushion was expecting something from her metta meditation. We should not expect anything. Nina. op 01-09-2004 03:10 schreef robmoult op rob.moult@j...: > > I encourage all members of DSG to put metta into action by smiling > at many people today, especially to those who are closest to us, yet > don't see us smile enough. 35933 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Sep 1, 2004 11:10am Subject: Re: [dsg] Just thought I'd let you know Hi Al, please say hello to Anders from me also, of course I remember him. Nina. op 01-09-2004 02:43 schreef Andrew Levin op andrewlevin@e...: > Anders Honore, a contributor to the Buddhism web forum 'E-Sangha' > sends all you folk at dhammastudygroup his regards. 35934 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Sep 1, 2004 11:10am Subject: Re: [dsg] What should I do Dear AL, op 01-09-2004 02:34 schreef Andrew Levin op andrewlevin@e...: ...(snipped)...So I'd best > be diligent in getting this understanding of Abhidharma so I can begin > practising dharma in earnest sometime in the relatively near future. > I mean, how much knowledge of citta and cetasikas is necessary for > contemplation of consciousness? N: Let intellectual understanding grow naturally, depending on what interests you. There should not be an idea: now I do this, then I will start to practise, there is so much self in the way, it really hinders. AL: How much nama and rupa do you guys > try to observe? N: No trying to observe. When the time is ripe sati and pañña do the task. AL:I'm shooting for 100% here. I've done it with > feelings, posture, and perhaps breathing before, I don't see why it > should be any different with the rest of the body (the elements) and > dhammas and consciousness. So, let me know what you think is > necessary for contemplation of consciousness, taking into account of > the fact that I want to be mindful of *everything* going on in the > psycho-physical complex called Andrew, because 30 minutes of vipassana > a day will just not cut it. N: To be quite honest: no way. People always ask for a method, but the method is: first more intellectual understanding. To try to be mindful of everything bolsters the idea of self, self who is so important. Nina. 35935 From: htootintnaing Date: Wed Sep 1, 2004 11:15am Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhamma Thread ( 051 ) Dear Phil, Sorry for my delayed response. Actually I found out this message just right now. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "plnao" wrote: Hello Htoo Thank you for this series. The explanation of vitakka and vicara was very helpful. I'm not able to access the internet now, but when I will study the entire series. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Phil: Does piti arise in/with mudita? (sympathetic joy of the brahma- viharas.) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Here, question should be clear. There are 5 jhana cittas. The first 3 that is 1st jhana and 2nd jhana and 3rd jhana do have piti as jhana factor. Mudita as samatha kammatthana has piti in the 1st, 2nd, and 3rd jhana. But in 4th jhana of mudita there is no piti. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Phil: When I feel that mudita has arisen in daily life there is a flooding feeling similar to the way you describe khanica piti. Does that flood of joy feeling come from piti or mudita or both? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Cittas, cetasikas, and rupas are daily routine. So it is normal to see these. But piti as a jhana factor never arises in daily activity. It only arise when nivarana dhamma or hindrances are cleared out and piti is much much more potent. Your joy comes from piti. Mudita is another cetasika. It itself is not a piti. With Metta, Htoo Naing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > I'm not (yet) seeking jhanas but I assume that piti and the other jhana > factors can be understood and experienced in daily life. Is that right? > > Thanks in advance. > > Metta, > Phil 35936 From: htootintnaing Date: Wed Sep 1, 2004 11:34am Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 052 ) Dear Dhamma Friends, In jhana cittas there are jhana factors. They are vitakka, vicara, piti, sukha and ekaggata. Vitakka, vicara, and piti have been discussed in the previous posts. Other jhana factors are sukha, upekkha, and ekaggata. Sukha is sukha vedana and upekkha is upekkha vedana. As all cittas have feeling, jhana cittas have feeling. In the 1st jhana citta, the feeling is sukha vedana. This feeling is the same in the 2nd, 3rd and 4th jhana cittas. But when 5th jhana citta arises, there is no more sukha vedana. Instead, there arise upekkha vedana. Ekaggata cetasika arises in eaxh and every citta. It arises in akusala, kusala, vipaka, kiriya and any other kind of citta like kama citta, jhana citta, lokuttara citta, there always is ekaggata. But its existence is much more evident in case of 5th jhana. Because it becomes the chief jhana factor. There are 5 rupavacara rupakusala jhana cittas. These 5 result in 5 correspondent rupavacara rupavipaka jhana cittas. When an arahat is dwelling in jhana, then rupavacara rupakiriya jhana cittas arise. In initial practice, there is an object of attention. But this object later changes into another object which is exactly the same as initial object. The main difference is that newly appearing object is a mental object and it is complete mental image of initial object. All mental faculties take this object. When this object arises, the bhavana is called parikamma bhavana and mental image is called uggaha nimitta. Soon another image arises. This is totally different from uggaha nimitta and this nimitta is very beautiful. From arising of uggaha nimitta to arising of patibhaga nimitta ( very beautiful counter image ) is called parikamma samadhi. From arising of patibhaga nimitta when hindrances are clear to just before arising of appana samadhi is called upacara samadhi. In upacara samadhi the object is patibhaga nimitta. But citta is flexible and responsible. But when in appana samadhi, jhana citta will be absorbed into the object. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome and they will be valuable. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts. 35937 From: agriosinski Date: Wed Sep 1, 2004 0:28pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Profit of Hi Howard, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: [...] > ---------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > And "I" am increasingly aware of there not being consciousness! Just > experiential content which is mentality-physicality. Just content - just what > is present and its being present. > ----------------------------------------------------- same here. BUT... %) It is scarry. I guess for 'me' it is. I like your way of calling it experiential content. Or maybe it is more like just experience? We have tendency to draw conclusions from experience. Imagine experience without conclusion. metta, Agrios 35938 From: Date: Wed Sep 1, 2004 8:51am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Profit of Hi, Agrios - In a message dated 9/1/04 3:30:23 PM Eastern Daylight Time, agriosinski@y... writes: > > > Hi Howard, > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > [...] > >---------------------------------------------------- > >Howard: > > And "I" am increasingly aware of there not being consciousness! Just > >experiential content which is mentality-physicality. Just content - just > what > >is present and its being present. > >----------------------------------------------------- > > same here. > BUT... %) > It is scarry. I guess for 'me' it is. > ----------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Yes!! Exactly!! It *is* scary, especially if t is experienced for an extended period and also in an intense way (as happened to me at a retreat a few years back). The fuller the experience the scarier! However, cultivation of calm is very helpful in this respect. At the moment, the experience has a mid-level of intensity for me; it is more mellow, and is "okay". It isn't continual either - the sense of "knowing subject" keeps on popping up like a pesky, annoying guest who refuses to recognize that he has overstayed his welcome! ;-) ---------------------------------------------------------- > > I like your way of calling it experiential content. > Or maybe it is more like just experience? --------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Yes, better. --------------------------------------------------------- > We have tendency to draw conclusions from experience. > Imagine experience without conclusion. > > metta, > Agrios > ============================ With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 35939 From: Andrew Levin Date: Wed Sep 1, 2004 0:59pm Subject: Re: [dsg] What should I do --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > Dear AL, > op 01-09-2004 02:34 schreef Andrew Levin op andrewlevin@e...: > ...(snipped)...So I'd best > > be diligent in getting this understanding of Abhidharma so I can begin > > practising dharma in earnest sometime in the relatively near future. > > I mean, how much knowledge of citta and cetasikas is necessary for > > contemplation of consciousness? > N: Let intellectual understanding grow naturally, depending on what > interests you. There should not be an idea: now I do this, then I will start > to practise, there is so much self in the way, it really hinders.\ That's the thing. I'm not in a mode where I can put together an understanding very easily. I'll read through something and "get" the concepts but if I see a word down there and a concept up there, I'm unable to put it together. Very tough, only on rare occasion am I able to go through things and put together an understanding. Same goes for Vism. I still want to get some kind of an understanding of what I need to know for contemplation on consciousness so I can walk this path, though. > AL: How much nama and rupa do you guys > > try to observe? > N: No trying to observe. When the time is ripe sati and pañña do the task. > > AL:I'm shooting for 100% here. I've done it with > > feelings, posture, and perhaps breathing before, I don't see why it > > should be any different with the rest of the body (the elements) and > > dhammas and consciousness. So, let me know what you think is > > necessary for contemplation of consciousness, taking into account of > > the fact that I want to be mindful of *everything* going on in the > > psycho-physical complex called Andrew, because 30 minutes of vipassana > > a day will just not cut it. > N: To be quite honest: no way. Nina, yes way :) I've done it, you just have to know what you're doing, and do it. Done it w/ some frames of reference before, it follows that if I can gain an understanding of how the other frames of reference are practised I should be able to do it again. > People always ask for a method, but the > method is: first more intellectual understanding. To try to be mindful of > everything bolsters the idea of self, self who is so important. > Nina. OK, Nina, you are very adept at this, maybe you could give me some idea on how the insight-knowledges arise. Do we have to be very procedural in how we conduct our practise or do they arise naturally with mindful observation of nama and rupa over time? 35940 From: Andrew Levin Date: Wed Sep 1, 2004 1:38pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Bagels, Forest & Happy Walks --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Hi AL, > > Here's my delayed post on this topic. > > Awareness & Spotlights > ================== > You asked for an example of how awareness can arise. Let's say we've just > read the exerpt Larry posted about seeing consciousness which cognizes > visible object with eye-sense as a necessary condition. If wise > considering and awareness have been accumulated, such further reading or > reflecting can be a condition for awareness to arise and be aware right > now of seeing or visible object or any other dhamma appearing. This is not > by `yearning' or shining a spotlight on these or any other realities. If > there is no detachment or patience with regard to what is conditioned, but > instead there's wishing or focussing on another object, then awareness is > impossible. I don't see how reading and reflecting can lead to awareness arising. Again, I learned the spotlight method. I think it has some roots in scripture, too. "And what is the treasure of generosity? There is the case of a disciple of the noble ones, his awareness cleansed of the stain of stinginess, living at home, freely generous, openhanded, delighting in being magnanimous, responsive to requests, delighting in the distribution of alms. This is called the treasure of generosity." That's done through the spotlight method. I cleansed my awareness /partially/ that way. So there's still the chance I can finish up the job and use that awareness to combat my depression and other states. That's what my meditation manual said it can do, and I believe it to be possible. > > Reflections & Cool :0) > =============== > By reflections on cittas, cetasikas and rupas, I don't mean just thinking > and trying to see or know them. I mean really beginning to understand what > is being experienced now, conditioned by having heard, read and considered > about these dhammas. We wish to develop awareness, but it begins to > develop when there's no wishing and so the `cool' quality is in the giving > up of the wishing and not expecting any special results or non-results :0) > I was going to say I can't see how reading and reflecting on certain dhammas would bring them to be seen but come to think of it some of the parts of my body came to the fore the other day with regard to the reflection on the four elements of the body, so maybe it is possible. I guess this is like a theory/practise/theory/practise type thing, slowly working each one up so you can climb the ladder higher, right? > Seeing the truths expounded in the texts.... > ============================== > Yes, if there isn't any appreciation or `click' factor in what we hear or > read from the texts, right understanding cannot develop. As I mentioned in another post, I find slow, mindful walks can really help right understanding to develop, or at least the first 'stirrings' of right understanding to borrow the term from accesstoinsight.org, seeing the truths expounded in the texts, but I wouldnt go so far as to say I've had a 'click' factor yet. > > Mentality-Materiality aka nama-rupa > ========================== > Just as you say, the clear knowledge of nama and rupa is the first stage > of insight knowledge. It is cultivated by clearly understanding and being > aware of namas and rupas over and over again when they appear, clearly > understanding them as dhammas, not self. You mentioned you are interested > in studying the Vism in this regard. Pls join in any of the present Vism > extracts Nina and Larry are posting. We think that we see objects, but > there is merely seeing consciousness which sees visible object. At the > moment of seeing, there is no other world....no hearing, no > thinking....just seeing. Awareness can be aware of any reality now, > depending on understanding. One of the practise guides I have really takes you step by step through the insight knowledges and lays out the conditions for the arising of each. I'm afraid if I don't practise in accordance with such a way, or if I just try to be mindful of a nama here and a rupa there I'll never get anywhere. I want to really practise in accordance with the sutta, develop all four frames of reference. > A `feel' for Posture > ============= > We all know that postures seem real, but it's only a kind of thinking. No > reality is known at the moments when postures seem real, but the thinking > can be known. No need to try to do anything special, AL. You'll find > awareness develops very naturally when this tangle of concepts and > realities is sorted out. Ha, ha, when is the tangle going to be sorted out. Isn't that what the whole vissudhimagga is about, untangling the tangle? :O > > Nimitta and signs > ============= > In the development of vipassana, the characteristic of the present reality > is the nimitta or sign. There is no question of needing any special > `breath nimitta' or using `concentration even for other bodily movements'. > Again, this is thinking, prompted by ideas of self and controlling > dhammas, rather than the development of detachment. This is merely what is stated is necessary in the commentaries. Access concentration is the level of concentration wherein the hindrances are suppressed. It can be gotten by breath meditation after a certain time, or by some other meditations, including the meditations on the elements, which seems harder. Harder to be mindful of the elements in your entire body than to develop concentration while sitting on the cushion, right? > Solid Practise > ============ > You mentioned that you are waiting before beginning `my solid practise'. > There's no need for waiting and awareness arises when it's time regardless > of any ideas about waiting. Whilst thinking about waiting or focussing or > concentrating, awareness can be aware of the thinking and view at these > times. I don't think practise (patipatti) is ever solid or fluid;-) It > just refers to moments of satipatthana which accumulate and develop > naturally. The most important thing is to understand any wrong views > arising, otherwise they keep taking us off-track. > To me it's the difference between sitting at home on the computer checking DSG, E-Sangha, #buddhism/EFNET, and AOL IM, and being outside immersed in the four foundations of mindfulness. You know how in the commentaries and scripture it's described such and such a person might ask another which of the foundations of mindfulness they established themselves in, and they would say from time to time we practise the four foundations of mindfulness? That's how I do, but at this current time I am not practising. > Walking Meditation > =============== > Momentary concentration is always arising as I said and as we'll get to in > ch6, `Cetasikas'. It won't be the `walking meditation' as such that > culminates in insight, but rather any moments of satipatthana arising and > developing whilst walking, whilst eating, whilst washing, whilst writing > and so on. The activity is a concept. The cittas and mental states arising > during the javana process after seeing, hearing and so on, are what will > make the difference. > Mhm. (What is a javana citta?). Just got to be mindful in the present moment, as Joe Goldstein puts it. > Switching > ========= > You asked about switching between knowing feelings and other namas and > rupas. It's not a matter of switching so much as just understanding > momentarily what is appearing, or what is the object of awareness at > anytime without preference. Nowhere in the Satipatthana Sutta or elsewhere > is there any suggestion of `practising them (the four foundations) > concurrently'. Again and again we read there is one citta at a time only, > taking one object. "Thus a bhikkus lives contemplating the body [internally or externally etc]" and "Anyone who develops these four frames of reference for [7 days->7 yrs] can expect one of two results" both to me seem to point to living in contemplation of these foundations of mindfulness, in vipassana. > Elements, Nama and Rupa > ====================== > AL: > One thing I'm not clear on and still having some difficulty with: > > when the wind hits my skin, and I contemplate on the Earth element in > that contact, isn't that softness experienced through the body sense, so > it's nama too, not rupa? > ... > S: The softness experienced through the body sense is rupa. The > experiencing of it is nama. The subsequent contemplating about it is nama. > What is contemplated, i.e the thought is a concept, not a reality. Clear. But contemplating isnt thinking, the two are different. Re: Feelings being nama, I think I have sufficient understanding to practise now. > .... > Awareness and LSD trips > =================== > Awareness or satipatthana has to be accompanied by understanding which > knows directly the reality being experienced. The awareness you describe > as associated with a trip is not accompanied by understanding and doesn't > have realities as objects. > > Like in a dream or trance when the conceptual world seems so very real, > but actually its one's imagination and the fantasy world, the awareness of > one's surroundings, the being in tune with nature and so on is not arising > as the result of developed wholesome states, but as a result of ignorance > and attachment. Hence the end of trip blues. Satipatthana and all > wholesome states are light and calm and don't bring any blues. Don't > confuse them or crave the latter;-) There's only one way.... OK. > Cetasikas and Practise > ================== > AL: > OK. Hope I can read cetasikas and gain some understanding on it to > apply to practise. > .... > S: Looks like it's going very well. May you be correct, Sarah, that what I've done so far will go a ways towards developing my understanding and mindfulness of nama and rupa. > Metta, > > Sarah > p.s Give my best regards to Anders too..... I always enjoyed and > appreciated my discussions with him - another very bright and sincere > young man. > > p.p.s. General Post # 35725 > ====================== > S: You mentioned that you were going to `take less drugs N.Y. state > mandates...'. Al, I sympathise, but please coordinate with the minders > rather than taking the question of prescriptions into your own hands with > side-effects and withdrawal problems etc.....I think the trust and honesty > would be more in line with the Dhp verse below, but we can discuss it > further if you like. Also, no need to make any fixed rules about keeping > `absolutely quiet in real life'. That concerns me rather. I once had a > student who refused to talk at all in school. It's very unnatural and > causes great concern to those around. > Ahh. I think I'm going to stick with the medications for now, but FYI I have quit a different regimen cold turkey in the past without any serious side effects or withdrawal symptoms and in afct was healthier without them (not necessarily BECAUSE i was off them but just happened to be). But being quiet is an attempt to avoid idle chatter and speaking bad words which ALWAYS seem to defile me with evil. > A: >Dhammapada says, "Better to do nothing than to > do what is wrong, for whatever you do, you do to yourself" > > >Now some borderline worries/concerns , all in line with Dhammapada > sayings: > > >- The person who lives carelessly jumps from lifetime to lifetime like > a monkey in a mango tree. - I've been living carelessly but it's never > too late to stop it, right? This is why I want to do good. So my > next life is good. > - The Kashta reed dies when it bears fruit. > So the fool, Scorning the teachings of the awakened, Spurning those > who follow the law, Perishes when his folly flowers. > > >Similarly with a verse I'm paraphrasing "All feel the touch of death, > but while fools lies slain by their folly, the sage is forever > unperturbed" > > >Well I have felt the touch of death while being caught up in mischief > and folly. I want reassurance that I can still follow the way and do > good work to bring me good results in the next life. > .... > S: These are all wise reflections and developing understanding is the > highest good of all. As far as I can see, you're on a very fast learning > curve and doing fine, AL;-). I'm very impressed by your honest reflections > and questioning. > ====================================================== enjoy peace, al 35941 From: plnao Date: Wed Sep 1, 2004 3:50pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: What should I do HI Andrew Thanks for your further comments. You have a sharp mind. Your ability to look hard into theory and try to put it into practice intentionally certainly outpaces mine. I seem to be more easygoing about it. Don't try to push hard to understand the points I don't understand yet. That may be wholesome patience, or unwholesome sloth. Probably both, rising in their own way, beyond my control. I've only got time to pick up a couple of points today. A: > Alright, let's try to get each other in line with what we're talking > about. I haven't studied Vism. much well, but I do know that the > first insight knowledge is delineation of mind and matter. Its > requisite conditions are purification of virtue, the principles of > insight meditation, that is, clearly comprehending one of the three > dharma seals in each phenomenon, and the three types of energy to > initiate and sustain meditation on the meditation subject. > > I don't see how this can be easily established without a good session > on the cushion with attention to the meditation subject being wholly > sustained in the time thereafter. The knowledge you should get is > that there is physical breath, mental noticing, physical breath, > mental noticing. Are we on the same page here? Ph: I think the key words here are "easily established." "Easily" is out of the question because we know how long it took the Buddha. "Established", which is a word you use quite often, and I also like (you had me thiking about "established in virtue" as I did my walk in the park the other day) is dangerous, in my opinion. Again, conditions at work make it unwise, in my opinion, to believe that anything is established yet. I think sotapanna is the first time anything is clearly established, and that thing is freedom from doubt, and freedom from wrong view of self. Since I know I am not sotapanna, by a long way, the first thing I am hoping to establish on the path is a firm intellectual understanding of annata, annica and dukkha and the four noble truths that, along with as much sati that comes my way, and the development of Brahma-Viharas, will condition eradication of self-view in some lifetime to come, and arrival at sotapanna. I guess that's why I always talk these days about conditions at work, and suspect self still at work behind my Dhamma practice. I agree with you that meditation is absolutely necessary on the path. At some point. Is serious meditation possible now, in this lifetime? That also depends on conditions. In my case, conditions have not come together to make serious meditation and seeking of jhanas in this lifetime possible. I wish I could seek jhanas. But I have to accept that it does not appear to be possible in this lifetime. I live in a small apartment, with noisy neighbours, an affectionate wife who wants to spend a lot of time together (the feeling is mutual) and very strong hindrances of ill will and sensual lust that will remain too strong in this lifetime, I suspect, for progress to be made in jhanas. I can work on loosening the roots of those hindrances in this lifetime, and that may help to condition the arising of a lifetime in which jhanas become possible. That's the way I look at it now. I know it is dangerous to put things off because we don't know if we will have the opportunity to practice Dhamma in the next lifetime, but in my opinion trying to force jhanas into this lifetime when the conditions are not right for it would only make it less likely to have a real shot at them in a lifetime to come. Of course you're not talking about jhanas here. But I guess what I said above applies to any form of serious formal meditation. > What you are saying is that there is that there is a self that directs > the processes and that this is equivalent to wrong view of self. This > is not consistent. Whatsoever in the psycho-physical organism that is > the mindfulness, or attention factor, can apply itself, or be applied, > or be developed and extended to apply, to all observable phenomenon if > the conditions are right. This is possible, this is the 100% > observance I am talking about. Ph: But the conditions can't be so consistent, can they? There is kamma working out from many lifetimes and from this lifetime in a way that simply can't allow for 100% of anything, wholesome, or unwholesome. A mixed bag of mental factors, unwholesome and unwholesome is inevitable, because of conditions. That's just my beginner's understanding, so take it at that level. That's why I also would mention that believing a certain kind of practice can assure rebirth in a certain realm as you mentioned yesterday could be dangerous because it could be kamma from a previous life that provides the rebirth consiousness, not necessarily this lifetime. I know you base that belief on a sutta you refer to, so I may be wrong there. I just encourage patience. I think you might be pushing too hard, expecting too much too soon. A presumptuous statement, but motivated by metta. I certainly am happy you're in this group. Your intelligence and enthusiasm for Dhamma practice leap off the screen. Metta, Phil p/s sorry all for the funny typo the other day, caused by careless use of spell-check. You are skillful practitioners, not parishioners! That reminded me of our friend Acayo's funny description of DSG members. 35942 From: plnao Date: Wed Sep 1, 2004 4:03pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhamma Thread ( 051 ) Hi Htoo Thanks for you response. Htoo: > Mudita as samatha kammatthana has piti in the 1st, 2nd, and 3rd > jhana. But in 4th jhana of mudita there is no piti. Ph: I see. > When I feel that mudita has arisen in daily life there is a flooding > feeling similar to the way you describe khanica piti. Does that > flood of joy feeling come from piti or mudita or both? > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > > Cittas, cetasikas, and rupas are daily routine. So it is normal to > see these. But piti as a jhana factor never arises in daily activity. > It only arise when nivarana dhamma or hindrances are cleared out and > piti is much much more potent. Ph: So is there mudita that arises in daily life and mudita that arises in jhana? Are they the same mudita? It seems mudita is not so rare, but the 4th jhana mudita is certainly rare. I *do*question whether the feeling that arises that I call mudita is really mudita, or whether it is just a ploy by self to feel jolly about life and the people around me. Htoo > Your joy comes from piti. Mudita is another cetasika. It itself is > not a piti. Ph: But Mudita is a joyful feeling, right. "Sympathetic joy" is the way it is usually translated. Finding joy in the wellbeing of others. I guess piti is a more personal joy. Ph: > > I'm not (yet) seeking jhanas but I assume that piti and the > other jhana > > factors can be understood and experienced in daily life. Is that > right? Ph: As I explained in another thread today, seeking jhanas does not seem to be an option for me in this lifetime for reasons explained there. If that is the case, do you think there is still value in considering jhana factors? They do arise in daily life? Thanks again. I know you are busy with your Dhamma Thread and other projects so please don't feel any pressure about getting back to me. Metta, Phil 35943 From: Egbert Date: Wed Sep 1, 2004 4:14pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Profit of Hi Sarah, I stress that the following post is not about specific people. > ... > S: Hopefully it's the illusion of self that's being lost and that's > liberating;-) > The doctrine of anatta in the clutches of a frail ego can be a very detrimental thing. And of course I am not referring to anyone here. Humans without a solid concept of themselves in a world with other selves cannot function in this world. The ego does not create itself. Ego formation is part of being human. It may well be profitable for beings to see ego formation at work, but praising selfless states to others who admire you (while busily resisting such states oneself) is simply playing on every human beings need for acceptance. Ego formation is conditioned. Ego formation will continue as long as the conditions for that to occur are in place. People entrenched in the world, and very happy and intent on staying that way, talking about the merits of egolessness is a self-deception of the nth order, and does the vulnerable no favours at all. Those who recognise the drawbacks of "being an ego" will do what is necessary. But one doesn't get to recognise the drawbacks of "being an ego" before having been one, fully!!!! All beings simply reap the returns on their investments. Those who bet each way continue to do so for ever, never winning, never losing. And that's all right too. Kind Regards Herman 35944 From: plnao Date: Wed Sep 1, 2004 4:35pm Subject: "Deeds of Merit" Correction of Views - degrees of right view Hello all Another passage from Chapter 2 of "Deeds of Merit" by K Sujin. (Available at Zolag) S. : The term ditthiujukamma is composed of ditthi, view, uju, straight, and kamma, action. Thus, this way of kusala is causing ones view to be straight, correct, in accordance with the characteristics of realities. But there are many degrees of right view of the characteristics of realities. S. : There are many degrees of right view. In accordance with the degree of right view there are many degrees of kusala citta. One degree of right view is knowing what is good and what is evil; for example, knowing that lying is unwholesome and that honesty and gratefulness are wholesome. Another degree of right view is understanding that one should eliminate defilements by deeds of generosity. One performs such deeds with the purpose of eliminating stinginess and clinging to possessions. Another degree of right view is understanding that one should observe siila, moral conduct, that one should abstain from unwholesome actions through body and speech, with the purpose of eliminating defilements such as attachment, aversion and ignorance. Another degree of right view is understanding that one should subdue the defilements which cause the citta to be distressed and agitated. Another degree again of right view is understanding that pa~n~naa, wisdom, should be developed with the purpose of completely eradicating defilements. Ph: The other day I was wondering about why right wisdom isn't a path factor, and Nina told me that it is right view. So I would guess that there is yet another degree of right view that is not only knowing that panna *should* be developed, but actually *is* the panna that arises to see deeply into realities and know them as not-self. I would guess that the degrees of right view mentioned above by K Sujin are achievable through diligent study, discussion and reflection, but that the deeper degree of right view that is panna is much more beyond our control, much rarer - maybe not in this lifetime even if we study hard. Please feel free to jump in with any comments. Metta, Phil 35945 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Sep 1, 2004 9:16pm Subject: child, villager, money changer. Hi Sarah and Larry, Diving into the beginning of Visuddhimagga, Ch XIV, I found something that I did not understand before. First this: With Jim we did some passges on citta which is different from paññaa. citta understands characteristics but does not penetrate them. Even citta without pannñaa, and I used to find that difficult. Here is some text: Jim: even as in the case of someone who is skilled at methodical study > from books, the actual moments are not discerned by him. as, for instance, in the studying of a skilful textbook, the times come to the right method are also not known. And "the penetration of the characteristics" is stated in reference to merely making the characteristics the object, not to penetrating (the characteristics).> I found a text in the Co to the Abhidhammattha Sangaha (T.A.) but in connection with the Brahma viharas, about citta without pañña: This clarifies what I did not understand before. The simile is about citta dissociated from paññaa, it knows characteristics but it is not pañña that penetrates them. Nina. P.S. Sarah, thank you very much for bringing up my Q. on navattabbam, it is clear now. 35946 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Sep 1, 2004 10:57pm Subject: "Lacking in Self-Esteem? Good for You!" (was: Profit of) Hi Herman (James, AndrewL & ALL), I hope you had a good skiing holiday without too many bumps from contact with rupas on those non-existing slopes;-) > > S: Hopefully it's the illusion of self that's being lost and that's > > liberating;-) ..... H:> The doctrine of anatta in the clutches of a frail ego can be a very > detrimental thing. And of course I am not referring to anyone here. > Humans without a solid concept of themselves in a world with other > selves cannot function in this world. ..... S: I’m assuming that ‘frail ego’ means the same as ‘lacking in self-esteem’. Is there really any suggestion anywhere in the texts to show that the doctrine or rather truth of anatta can ever be detrimental at all and that a ‘solid concept of themselves’ [ourselves] can ever be of value? Of course, the truth of anatta can easily and detrimentally be misunderstood, but then it is the wrong view of themselves/ourselves that is the problem once more, not the 'frail' non-existent 'ego' or the Teachings as such. I appreciate your concern in this regard, but to be honest, I think it’s misguided. As I see it, it’s more valuable to encourage wholesome thoughts and deeds and help even those ‘in the clutches of a frail ego’ to understand dhammas as not self, if -- and that's a big if of course-- they have the ability to do so. Indeed, I believe this is the greatest assistance we can ever give others in this life. Obviously those who read messages on DSG must have some appreciation at some level about the teaching of anatta, otherwise why would they be here? I’d like to draw yours and also Andrew’s attention to a letter which James wrote to a StarKid, a student of mine, about Patty and Dominique. I was greatly moved by it and so was the student herself, a young teenager, conventionally ‘lacking in self-esteem’ but with plenty of wisdom with regard to appreciating wholesome qualities and the value of the replies which Kom, James and others wrote to her. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/17116 You might also find the following essay from Time magazine (Oct14, 2002) interesting: “Lacking in Self-Esteem? Good for You!” I liked it, remembered it and prompted by your comments, just googled tofind it conveniently on-line. http://www.time.com/time/magazine/story/0,9171,1101021014-361718,00.html In case the link doesn’t work, I’ll quote a little after signing off and be interested in your further comments. (I've cut out the politics, but I'm sure you'll enjoy them, Herman;-)). Herman, you’ve touched on a deep topic here (more than once) and I’d like to explore it further with you. I hope that you don’t think I’m trivializing it in anyway by the following quotes which of course are not written with any understanding of anatta, but a suggestion to show that even on a conventional level the boosting of self-esteem may not be all it’s cracked up to be and usually, the truth is kindest. Metta, Sarah ====== >"Lacking in Self-Esteem? Good for You!" <....> >You know what self-esteem is: according to decades of psychological and educational theory, it's the essential building block for a successful life. A few generations of children, especially minority kids, have been educated according to the theory that they lack self-esteem, that this deficiency is central to any problems they may have in making their way in the world and that the worst thing you can ever do to a child is to tell her that she isn't all that. >Well, guess what? Self-esteem isn't all that it's cracked up to be.< <....> >Self-esteem can also be an educational boomerang. Friends of mine who teach today's college students are constantly complaining about the high self-esteem of their students. When the kids have been told from Day One that they can do no wrong, when every grade in high school is assessed so as to make the kid feel good rather than to give an accurate measure of his work, the student can develop self-worth dangerously unrelated to the objective truth. He can then get deeply offended when he's told he is getting a C grade in college and become demoralized or extremely angry. Weak professors give in to the pressure — hence, grade inflation. Tough professors merely get exhausted trying to bring their students into vague touch with reality. >Of course, in these therapized days, reality can be a touchy subject. It's hard to accept that we may not be the best at something or that we genuinely screwed up or that low self-esteem can sometimes be fully justified. < ***** 35947 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Sep 2, 2004 0:33am Subject: Re: [dsg] child, villager, money changer. Dear Nina, Larry & All, (Phil in passing) --- nina van gorkom wrote: > Hi Sarah and Larry, > Diving into the beginning of Visuddhimagga, Ch XIV, > I found something that I did not understand before. >...> > I found a text in the Co to the Abhidhammattha Sangaha (T.A.) but in > connection with the Brahma viharas, about citta without pañña: > ... S: Yes, this is just the point as I understand too. If it is just book study or memorising without any understanding, it is not even pariyatti and will not help in the development of understanding either. .... N: > The simile is about citta dissociated from paññaa, it knows > characteristics > but it is not pañña that penetrates them. ... S: The characteristics may appear, but there is no knowledge or wisdom of them. .... N: > Sarah, thank you very much for bringing up my Q. on navattabbam, it is > clear now. .... S: I’ve found those discussions helpful and am glad you prompted me to ask further. Better not to have any doubts or to wonder why we can’t find the references. I also heard comments about the ‘flux’ or trace or nimitta of the real thing, the nimitta of the nama or rupa just fallen away. When it’s understood, it’s not necessary to use the word or term. "If we keep following the word, we’ll have doubt." Jon & I also raised your qu below from the Tika which led to a long discussion. I’ll quote and summarise K.Sujin’s comments which were quite strong. ***** N: > I have a Q. for Bgk. on visible object. I read in the Tiika of > Visuddhimagga that it is said that visible object could not be as tiny as a the 36th part of an a.nu which is very minute. This is refuted, it is said. Does what is visible consists of many groups, kalapas, containing colour, is there impingement of many such groups on the eyesense one after the other? One minute rupa that is visible object or colour would not be visible. I know that such thinking is not seeing, and not awareness of what i visible. I also know that we cannot count visible object rupas and that we have to attend just to the characteristic that appears. But what about the pariyatti? > **** Jon gave a short summary of the qu first -- KS: >Is it not thinking? J: >Pariyatti is also thinking. KS: >Pariyatti talks about reality - reality which can be seen. That’s the meaning of what it says in the Tipitaka, Visuddhimagga or commentary. It’s just like now. J: >Because of ignorance, we don’t know what can be seen... KS: >So we start from that which can be seen now - just a reality, developing understanding of it. Otherwise we’ll follow the words - we’re floating in the sea of words and concepts while reality is now appearing. J: >Doesn’t it help us to understand visible object as it is..... KS: >It helps for thinking about words and concepts, but not understanding reality as it is. No matter what is said in the commentary, what appears, appears *now* according to the commentary. Now it (visible object) is seen, no matter if we think about the shape, colour or size - it’s that which can be seen (known) in order to become detached from clinging or paying attention as before (as we’re used to). Otherwise we’re following words and concepts instead of understanding it. The only way to become detached is to understand reality appearing in order to understand there’s no one in it. Otherwise there’s only thinking about visible object all the time in a day. **** Jon started to read the actual question, but was interrupted after the first line;-) K.Sujin stressed that we can’t know these details and there’s no point in talking about them -- ‘following concepts’ -- instead of knowing present realities appearing. I read out the last two or three lines. KS: >Pariyatti just tells us to understand reality as it is, so when one begins to understand the meaning of it, one stops the idea of how many % [or nth part] and so on no matter who said that. She continued to stress that when we read the Tipitaka or commentaries we forget that they are showing the Buddha’s wisdom. “We say everything is dhamma. Is everything dhamma? Not yet, so we start with our own understanding of reality which we used to know by concepts.....now there is seeing and thinking. Do they appear one by one or just by thinking about them?” {side note for Phil - KS:“any word - dhamma, a dhamma, dhammas, it doesn’t matter - the words aren’t important”} Sukin and I mentioned the value of translation work and the need for you (Nina) to check the details accurately, but again K.Sujin stressed that we need to understand the purpose of talking and study in order to develop the understanding of anattaness, not to learn details which we’ll just forget at the end of this life. She also suggested that no one can know these details and so it was more profitable to talk about the reality we can know. She said that when she reads these details she knows “it’s beyond anyone’s expectation or calculation. It’s like talking about animals in the Himalayan forest with horns and so on (!!). Who sees that and what is seen now?” She added that she knows no one can answer that question exactly by his (or her) own wisdom. “Are we helping others to have their own wisdom?” she asked at the end. I’ll try to add other replies to other DSG qus -- maybe one a day. This was easily the longest one. Thank you very much for asking it. We all appreciated the lively discussion. Metta, Sarah ====== 35948 From: Egbert Date: Thu Sep 2, 2004 2:11am Subject: Re: "Lacking in Self-Esteem? Good for You!" (was: Profit of) Hi Sarah and everyone, You may be happy to learn that I agree entirely with your take on self-esteem. But first things first :-) Skiing was goooooooood. It's really strange how becoming so sore and so utterly fatigued over a period of time can be so enjoyable :-) > I hope you had a good skiing holiday without too many bumps from contact with rupas on those non-existing slopes;-) > > > S: Hopefully it's the illusion of self that's being lost and that's liberating;-) > ..... H:> The doctrine of anatta in the clutches of a frail ego can be a very detrimental thing. And of course I am not referring to anyone here. Humans without a solid concept of themselves in a world with other selves cannot function in this world. > ..... > S: I'm assuming that `frail ego' means the same as `lacking in > self-esteem'. H: I'm sorry, Sarah, I wasn't very explicit or clear. By a frail ego I mean a person who feels they have no control in their day to day life. Perhaps the above clarification would suffice, but while I'm at it, I might explain a bit more. A person who feels a lack of control in their life will inevitably feel they are acting against their will. Such a person ends up seriously depressed, possibly suicidal, possibly prematurely dead. Behaving only as one is forced, or thinks one should behave, leads to serious internal conflict, as does acting on each momentary, conflicting whim. S :Is there really any suggestion anywhere in the texts to show that the doctrine or rather truth of anatta can ever be detrimental at all > and that a `solid concept of themselves' [ourselves] can ever be of value? H : I may be quite mistaken, but I do not think that the truth of anatta was ever taught to lay folk intent on remaining lay folk. With very good reason. > Of course, the truth of anatta can easily and detrimentally be > misunderstood, but then it is the wrong view of themselves/ourselves that is the problem once more, not the 'frail' non-existent 'ego' or the Teachings as such. H : The suttas may well be likened to a doctor's notes, each sutta being specific to a situation. But due to such black arts as writing, commentaries and education for the masses :-) worldlings have access to more material than is suitable for them to hear. And so the contemporary worldling gets to choose which diagnosis and remedy they will apply to themself. This has extremely detrimental consequences for the self-diagnosing patient. Especially so for the one who applies the doctor's statements, on anatta, to fully renouncing monks, to themself and ends up with a neurotic resignation citing conditionality. Thanks for the links, I read and appreciated them. James is very quiet these days, but I know he will have good reasons :-) With regards to self-esteem, people on this site must examine for themselves whether they approach their pursuit of theoretical knowledge of the doctor's notes in any of the following ways: 1] that knowledge will make them more attractive to others 2] that knowledge will make them invulnerable 3] that knowledge will make them worthy In closing, anatta cannot be split into theoretical and practical. There is no theory of anatta. It is practice only. All the very best Herman 35949 From: plnao Date: Thu Sep 2, 2004 3:20am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: "Lacking in Self-Esteem? Good for You!" (was: Profit of) Hello Herman, Sarah, and all Feel like I'm overdoing it with the posting these days, but a guy's gotta do what a guy's gotta do. > A person who feels a lack of control in > their life will inevitably feel they are acting against their will. > Such a person ends up seriously depressed, possibly suicidal, > possibly prematurely dead. Interesting topic. I don't think the above is necessarily true. In my case, I'm feeling these days that things are arising in a conditioned way but I find it quite liberating. Freedom from the eight worldly concerns seems to be arising. However, I'm aware that my belief in conditions is just starting to become established and that it may very well be a self who is simply feigning a lack of control as a clever tactic. A self who is having a bit of an anatta masquerade party, if you will. That could be. We'll see. And it seems that people with religious faith in a divine power benefit emotionally from turning over control. Isn't that what the 12 step thing is all about? Many recovering alcoholics etc who follow those programs do seem to benefit from awareness of a lack of control. > There is no theory of anatta. It is practice only. I disagree with this. "The flavour of Abhidhamma is anatta" as I read somewhere, and that applies to reading Abhidhamma in Daily Life, for me. It was sheer theory at first, but on rereading I sense it becoming integrated with daily life in a deeper way. I haven't yet done extensive reading of suttas (I will be next year, I think) but I would also say the flavour of the Samyutta Nikaya group on aggregates is annata. Reading about aggregates in books and in suttas, reflecting on them, discussing them. When they are understood intellectually, annata is understood intellectually, in my opinion. Somewhere in a sutta there is the line "who are you angry at? the form aggregate? the feeling aggregate? etc." This is all about understanding annata in theory, in my opinion. That theory has been hugely helpful for me in reducing anger in my life. Theory is gradually leading to deeper realization in practice. Perhaps it could be said that it was all practice from the beginning. Metta, Phil p.s Sarah, loved the transcription of the talk with K Sujin. She sounds tough and invigorating! I took note of her message re words, though I'm not sure I agree completely. 35950 From: htootintnaing Date: Thu Sep 2, 2004 3:29am Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhamma Thread ( 051 ) Dear Phil, It is my pleasure to respond questions and queries. Here are more discussions rather than answers. With Metta Htoo Naing PS: Please see below. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "plnao" wrote: Hi Htoo Thanks for you response. Ph: So is there mudita that arises in daily life and mudita that arises in jhana? Are they the same mudita? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Sabbe sankhara anicca, sabbe sankhara dukkha, sabbe dhamma anatta. What you think 'you' is not a reality. Citta arises and falls away. Piti is also an ultimate reality. It always arises with a citta which has specification. It is also anicca. Each piti arises and falls away. Mudita is also another ultimate reality. It arises with cetain citta and falls away at the same time. It is also anicca. In terms of character yes the same. But they are always diffenent because each dies at each moment. They never come twice. In the context, mudita arises in daily life is in the middle of other kusala cittas and akusala cittas. On the other hand, mudita of jhana is purely in kusala cittas and when it becomes full jhana factor, it is much more potent than any other muditas. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Phil: It seems mudita is not so rare, but the 4th jhana mudita is certainly rare. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Yes. Very very very rare. If there are practitioners of brahmavihara, most of them will practise metta for the first 4 jhanas and upekkha for the 5th jhana. Few will practise mudita as samatha. Among them who attain 4th jhana will be rare. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Phil: I *do*question whether the feeling that arises that I call mudita is really mudita, or whether it is just a ploy by self to feel jolly about life and the people around me. > Htoo > Your joy comes from piti. Mudita is another cetasika. It itself is > > not a piti. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Ph: But Mudita is a joyful feeling, right. "Sympathetic joy" is the way it is usually translated. Finding joy in the wellbeing of others. I guess piti is a more personal joy. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: It is said to be joy. But it is not feeling. Feeling is vedana. It is another cetasika. Piti is not personal. It is accessible to any type of person. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Ph: I'm not (yet) seeking jhanas but I assume that piti and the other jhana factors can be understood and experienced in daily life. Is that right? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: As they are cetasikas, they can be experienced. But as jhanic factors, they can only be experienced in jhana. Never in daily life. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Ph: As I explained in another thread today, seeking jhanas does not seem to be an option for me in this lifetime for reasons explained there. If that is the case, do you think there is still value in considering jhana factors? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: My opinion is that, when you see things clearly, the lens in your eyes do their focussing well. Focus is needed. The mind mixed with many dirts will not see dhamma clearly. To see dhamma clearly, rays have to be focused through a concentrator-len. So I think there is still value in considering jhana factors as I explained above. That is why I am writing Jhana Journey series and now discussing jhana factors in Dhamma Thread. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Phil: They do arise in daily life? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: As I explained in case of mudita, as cetasikas they arise in daily life. But as jhana factors they do not arise in daily life. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Thanks again. I know you are busy with your Dhamma Thread and other projects so please don't feel any pressure about getting back to me. Metta, Phil ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: May you be free from suffering. With Metta, Htoo Naing 35951 From: htootintnaing Date: Thu Sep 2, 2004 4:07am Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 053 ) Dear Dhamma Friends, There are 89 cittas in total in terms of characteristics. If cittas are not understood, dhamma study will be a bit difficult. Cittas have been classified and expalined in this series in the earlier posts. 54 kamavacara cittas have been discussed. Currently mahaggata cittas are being discussed. Maha means great. Mahaggata means higher, greater. As these mahaggata cittas or jhana cittas are linked with samatha kammatthana, they need to be discussed briefly here. There are kusalas. They may be dana kusala or offerings. They may be sila kusala or observing moral conducts. They may be bhavana kusala or mental cultivation of good will. Bhavanas are frequently referred to as meditation. There is a term called kammatthana. Kammatthana is meade up of 'kamma' and 'thana'. Kamma here means 'bhavana kusala kamma' and thana means place or site. Here 'thana' means the object or arammana. Kammatthana means 'the object where bhavana kusala kamma citta dwell'. There are samatha kammatthana and vipassana kammatthana. As we are now discussing on rupavacara cittas, only samatha will be discussed very briefly. There are 40 samatha kammatthanas. Only 30 of them will give rise to appana jhana and cause rupavacara rupakusala cittas. In the previous posts jhana factors have been discussed. In this post 'how they have to be developed' will be discussed. Samatha means 'the samadhi that extinguishes all nivarana fire' or 'the samadhi that arrests all hindrances'. Samadhi is a collection of ekaggata cetasikas that take the same samatha kammatthana bhavana object'. Ekaggata is a cetasika and it is one-pointedness. It is undisturbed stillness. When the practitioner takes the object of samatha kammatthana, he is said to be mentally cultivating wholesome actions. He is doing bhavana kusala kamma. There are 3 different bhavana in samatha kammatthana bhavana. They are parikamma bhavana, upacara bhavana, and appana bhavana. Parikamma bhavana or 'initial mental cultivation' is the stage of bhavana that starts from initiation of samatha kammattha bhavana till disappearance of 5 hindrances. From that stage of parikamma bhavana, that is when 5 hindrances disappear till appana samadhi arises is called upacara bhavana. As hindrances are free in this bhavana, upacara samadhi is very pure and free of sin. When appana samadhi arises the cultivating mind is absorbed into the object of samatha kammatthana. Appana jhana means jhanacitta along with its jhana factors look at the object of kammatthana very closely. They are so close that they both seem to be merged and fused with each other and mind is said to be absorbed into the object. This means each arising jhana citta will only take jhana object. As there is no other cittas in between these jhana cittas, it seems that there are infinite jhana cittas and they are undisturbed. If it is the highest rupa jhana, even thunder storm will not be sensed at that time because mind is totally absorbed. Only cittas in these appana jhanas or absorptive mental states are called jhana cittas. If jhana are rupa jhana they are called rupavacara rupakusala cittas and if arupa then arupavacara arupakusala cittas. Regarding the character of the object of samatha, the initial object which may be visual object or tactile object or mind object is called parikamma nimitta. When the power of practitioner arises, this nimitta or image becomes uggaha nimitta or 'mental image' of the initial image or object. Samadhi from initiation till the arising of uggaha nimitta or mental image is called parikamma samadhi. This uggaha nimitta or 'mental image' later in the practice becomes another image which is much much more beautiful and free of any impurity. This image is called counter image or patibhaga nimitta. When this arises mind is much much more calmer and purer but there are still a few hindrances arise occasionally. Samadhi from this time till arising of appana samadhi is called upacara samadhi or proximate concentration. When appana samadhi arises, it is said to be in jhana. For the first jhana, there are 5 jhana factors as described in the previous posts. The 55th citta of 89 total cittas is this jhana citta. It is called.. 'vitakka, vicara, piti, sukhekaggata sahitam pathamajjhana rupakusala citta'. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome and they will be valuable. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts. 35952 From: jwromeijn Date: Thu Sep 2, 2004 5:06am Subject: Vipassana-meditation, jhana's and the not-sensual citta's Dear all A question that will not be new in this DSG, but I have not found it in the "useful posts from the archives" The way I'm been teached in Theravada consists of three parts: the Dhamma (the Sutta's and introduction to the Abhidhamma); Refuge in the Three Jewels; and Vipassana-meditation in the Mahasi-tradition. As far as I have understood, it's not necessary to reach a jhana for getting liberated, getting the 16 nana's, step by step, is even better. Because in the sutta's the jhana's are mentioned so many times, I have tried to read more about the relation vipassana- samatha's. There are two groups of scolars writing on the two main types of Buddhist meditation: one group that considers insight (vipassana) to be essential and tranquility to be inessential in the pursuit of nibbana; and a second group that views both samatha and vipassana to be essential. In the second group there are some who say: after having reached first jhana you can decide how to continue: with second jhana or with vipassana. In his essay "VIPASSANA & JHANA: What The Masters Say" Ven. Visuddhacara writes: "Renowned and experienced masters of Buddhist meditation are generally agreed on the point that Jhana is not necessary or a prerequisite for Vipassana Meditation. For example, in the book Living Buddhist Masters (Formerly published under BPS, this book has since been retitled Living Dharma by Shambala) by Jack Kornfield, all the 12 masters written about, clearly stated or indicated that one can do Vipassana without cultivating any Jhana. Some teach Vipassana relying only on Khanika Samadhi or Access Concentration (upacara samadhi). Others teach both Samatha, Jhana and Vipassana but emphasised that one need not attain Jhana to do Vipassana. Yogis can switch to Vipassana after attaining a moderate level of concentration which is sufficient to overcome The Five Hindrances. Furthermore, most cautioned against attachment or stagnation in Jhana and emphasised the need to do Vipassana." He then quotes Achaan Chah, Achaan Buddhadasa and many others. Even if I was convinced (first) jhana is necessary, I don't know a teacher because I don't want to do it on my own and I don't want to go to a course of Tibetan meditation because I don't want anything tantric. So I don't do it. Good to mention that we also do metta- and karuna-meditation, as I understand that are a kind of samatha, but not for reaching absorption. My questions in fact are: Because (higher) jhana's are not relevant to me to practice, is it correct that they are also not relevant in a intellectual way? Questioned in another way: why should the non-sensual citta's (rupavacara, arupavacara, lokuttara) in the Abhidhamma interest me? And is it correct that the "Planes of Existence" that correspond to that non-sensual citta's are also not relevant to me? I even don't have the wish to be reborn in that "higher" planes (numbers 12 and higher to say it quasi-exact). Sometimes I think I don't have the fetters (samyojana's) nr 6 and 7: rupa-raga and arupa-raga, but I think I still have nrs 2-5 and are working to release the first one; is that possible? I realize I don't put my questions in a very careful (Asian) way but they are sincere and come from a great respect of the Dhamma With metta, Joop 35953 From: agriosinski Date: Thu Sep 2, 2004 6:42am Subject: Re: [dsg] Profit of --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Egbert" wrote: > Hi Sarah, > > I stress that the following post is not about specific people. > > > ... > > S: Hopefully it's the illusion of self that's being lost and that's > > liberating;-) > > > > The doctrine of anatta in the clutches of a frail ego can be a very > detrimental thing. And of course I am not referring to anyone here. > Humans without a solid concept of themselves in a world with other > selves cannot function in this world. As I observe this whole process of self creation, I see nothing of value in it. Yes it is human, as much as being lost in thinking is human. I see freedom in not being involved in it anymore. I see wisdom in knowing whats going on. I don't think there is a doctrine of anatta in Buddha's teaching. Seems like there is doctrine of seeing how the things really are, and doctrine of not getting involved into thinking about who am I, before there is any real idea of how the things really are. metta, Agrios 35954 From: htootintnaing Date: Thu Sep 2, 2004 8:59am Subject: Re: Vipassana-meditation, jhana's and the not-sensual citta's Dear Joop, Please mention your nr 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10 in serial as you will say. Htoo Naing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jwromeijn" wrote: > Dear all > > A question that will not be new in this DSG, but I have not found it > in the "useful posts from the archives" > > The way I'm been teached in Theravada consists of three parts: ...snip..snip...snip... Sometimes I think I don't have the fetters (samyojana's) nr 6 and 7: rupa-raga and arupa-raga, but I think I still have nrs 2-5 and are working to release the first one; is that possible? > I realize I don't put my questions in a very careful (Asian) way but > they are sincere and come from a great respect of the Dhamma > > With metta, > Joop 35955 From: htootintnaing Date: Thu Sep 2, 2004 9:21am Subject: Jhana Journey ( 10 ) Dear Dhamma Friends, We are examining what exactly are arising in our mind. The jhana practitioner is now concentrating on patibaga nimitta( counter- image ). He has realized that vitakka ( initial application ) is continously arising in his mind. This vitakka put him on patibhaga nimitta repeatedly. If he can be aware of vitakka he will soon notice that there is another factor that arises along with it. It is vicara ( sustained application ). It reviews the object ( arammana ) and it arises in common with vitakka. It behaves as if it will never leave the present object ( arammana ). With a long practice, he will be able to notice this cetasika vicara ( sustained application ). This vicara makes him repeatedly reviewing on patibhaga nimitta or counter image. As he is well concentrated and his mind seems to be calm he will start to feel ease in his mind. This ease will rejoice him. He will be full of energy. When these feelings start his mind and body start to react to these feelings. If he is not well informed or he is not aware of the danger of jhana he may get to different way. This third mental factor is called ''piti''( satisfaction ). The satisfaction comes in different forms. The least conspicuous feeling of this mental pleasure is just feeling ease and happy. This piti just like the object and this piti is called kuddika piti. If it becomes stronger, arising of it may cause the practitioner goose- skinned, hair and all hairs erected. This is called khanika piti or momentary joy or flood of joy. More stronger piti ( satisfaction ) will cause tear flows. This is associated with wave-like movement feeling in the chest and this is oscillating interest in the object. This is okkantika piti. After that more powerful piti ( satisfaction ) causes the practitioner feel light and feel as if there are some undescribable feeling ( if you have practiced you will become to realize these ) coming in oceanic wave forms. This is ubbega piti. The highest powerful Piti ( satisfaction ) cause much lightness as very light cotton that floats in the air. It is this feeling that causes body raising out of the ground. This piti spread inside the body in each and every cell of the body and the whole body is like weightless. This suffusing joy is called pharana piti. This is not jhana yet. Just piti ( satisfaction ). Even with this piti without jhana the practitioner may float in the air for a while as long as piti of that kind is working. May you feel as light as cotton and float in the air while you practise samatha. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 35956 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Sep 2, 2004 11:07am Subject: Vis. 97 and Tiika, Pali. Vis. 97, Pali: cakkhuvi~n~naa.naadiina.m anantara.m ruupaadivijaananalakkha.naa manodhaatu, ruupaadisampa.ticchanarasaa, tathaabhaavapaccupa.t.thaanaa, cakkhuvi~n~naa.naadiapagamapada.t.thaanaa. ahetukavipaakaa sa.laaramma.navijaananalakkha.naa duvidhaapi santiira.naadikiccaa manovi~n~naa.nadhaatu, santiira.naadirasaa, tathaabhaavapaccupa.t.thaanaa, hadayavatthupada.t.thaanaa. Receiving-consciousness, sampa.ticchana-citta. ***************************************** [The resultant] 'mind-element' has the characteristic of cognizing [respectively] visible data, etc., immediately next to (eye consciousness, and so on. Its function is to receive visible data, and so on. It is manifested as the state [of receiving] corresponding to that [last-mentioned function].37) Its proximate cause is the departure of eye-consciousness, and so on. Investigating-consciousness, santiira.na-citta. **************************************** Also the twofold resultant 'mind-consciousness-element without root cause' with the function of investigating, etc., has as its characteristic the cognizing of the six kinds of objects. Its function is that of investigating, and so on. It is manifested as the state [of investigating] corresponding to that [last-mentioned function]. Its proximate cause is the heart-basis. Tiika Vis. 97: Receiving-consciousness, sampa.ticchana-citta. **************************************** Tiika: Cakkhuvi~n~naa.naadigahita.m ruupaadi-aaramma.na.m tadanantarameva aparipatanta.m katvaa sampa.ticchantii ga.nhantii viya hotiiti vutta.m ³ruupaadisampa.ticchanarasaa²ti. With regard to the receiving-consciousness that arises immediately after eye-consciousness etc., that cognizes respectively visible object etc. , and that as it were takes it in the way of receiving, without coming into contact with eye-consciousness, he said that its function is receiving visible object etc. N: Seeing has fallen away when receiving-consciousness arises, they do not meet each other. There is only one citta arising at a time and each citta has its own conditions for its arising. Receiving-consciousness receives as it were visible object, sound etc. from the preceding sense-cognition. Tiika: Tathaabhaavena sampa.ticchanabhaavena paccupati.t.thatiiti tathaabhaavapaccupa.t.thaanaa. By being of such nature, by the state of reception, it manifests itself, thus, this state is its manifestation. N: See Intro. Its manifestation or effect is the reception of the visible object, etc. and this corresponds to its function of receiving. Investigating-consciousness, santiira.na-citta. *************************************** Tiika: Chasu aaramma.nesu kadaaci pa~ncanna.m, tato vaa katipayaana.m vijaananasabhaavaapi cha.laaramma.navijaananalakkha.naa vuttaa ta.msabhaavaanativattanato, chasveva vaa itaresa.m aaramma.naana.m antogadhattaa. With regard to six objects, its characteristic is to know sometimes five objects or several kinds of objects, and thus it is said that its characteristic is cognizing six kinds of objects... Santiira.naadikiccaati santiira.natadaaramma.nakiccaa vaa, As regards the expression, the function of investigation and so on, this means the functions of investigation and retention, santiira.natadaaramma.napa.tisandhibhava"ngacutikiccaa vaati adhippaayo. or the meaning is: the functions of investigating, retention, rebirth-consciousness, life-continuum (bhavanga) and dying. ³Hadayavatthupada.t.thaanaa²ti ida.m imaasa.m dvinna.m manovi~n~naa.nadhaatuuna.m ekanteneva hadayavatthusannissayataaya vutta.m. As to the expression, its proximate cause is the heartbase, he said this since these two kinds of mind-consciousness elements are surely supported by the heart-base. He.t.thaa vuttanayena pana ta.mta.manantaraatiitavi~n~naa.naapagamapada.t.thaanaatipi vattu.m va.t.tatiyeva. It is proper that its proximate cause is also the departure of whatever past consciousness it immediately succeeds, according to the same method as said before. ***** Nina. 35957 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Sep 2, 2004 11:07am Subject: Tiika of Vis. XIV, 97 Tiika of Vis. XIV, 97 Receiving-consciousness, sampa.ticchana-citta. ***************************************** Vis.: [The resultant] 'mind-element' has the characteristic of cognizing [respectively] visible data, etc., immediately next to eye consciousness, and so on. Its function is to receive visible data, and so on. Tiika: With regard to the receiving-consciousness that arises immediately after eye-consciousness etc., that cognizes respectively visible object etc. , and that as it were takes it in the way of receiving, without coming into contact with eye-consciousness, he said that its function is receiving visible object etc. N: Seeing has fallen away when receiving-consciousness arises, they do not meet each other. There is only one citta arising at a time and each citta has its own conditions for its arising. Receiving-consciousness receives as it were visible object, sound etc. from the preceding sense-cognition. Vis.: It is manifested as the state [of receiving] corresponding to that [last-mentioned function]. Tiika: By being of such nature, by the state of reception, it manifests itself, thus, this state is its manifestation. N: See Intro. Its manifestation or effect is the reception of the visible object, etc. and this corresponds to its function of receiving. Investigating-consciousness, santiira.na-citta. **************************************** Vis.: Also the twofold resultant 'mind-consciousness-element without root cause' with the function of investigating, etc., has as its characteristic the cognizing of the six kinds of objects. Tiika: With regard to six objects, its characteristic is to know sometimes five objects or several kinds of objects, and thus it is said that its characteristic is cognizing six kinds of objects... N: Investigating-consciousness experiences several functions and thus it can experience also six kinds of objects. By stating six objects all kinds of objects are included, but there are not more than these six. It can perform the function of retention after the javana-cittas. It experiences also other kinds of objects without being dependent on any doorway, when it performs the functions of rebirth-consciousness, life-continuum (bhavanga) and dying. The rebirth-consciousness experiences the same object as the last javana-cittas of the previous life, and these are of several kinds. Vis.: Its function is that of investigating, and so on. Tiika: As regards the expression, the function of investigation and so on, this means the functions of investigation and retention, or the meaning is: the functions of investigating, retention, rebirth-consciousness, life-continuum (bhavanga) and dying. Vis.: It is manifested as the state [of investigating] corresponding to that [last-mentioned function]. N: This is according to the same method as the manifestation of receiving-consciousness. Vis.Its proximate cause is the heart-basis. Tiika: As to the expression, its proximate cause is the heartbase, he said this since these two kinds of mind-consciousness elements are surely supported by the heart-base. It is proper that its proximate cause is also the departure of whatever past consciousness it immediately succeeds, according to the same method as said before. N: It is said of the receiving-consciousness: its proximate cause is the departure of eye-consciousness, and so on. Evenso the same can be said of the investigating-consciousness that succeeds the receiving-consciousness: the departure of the receiving-consciousness is the proximate cause of the investigating-consciousness. ****** Nina. 35958 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Sep 2, 2004 11:07am Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhamma Thread ( 051 ) Hello Phil, The cetasikas that are jhanafactors arise in daily life and they condition conascent dhammas by way of jhana-condition, jhana-paccaya. They have a specific function as such. Jhana-factors can be taken in a wider sense, there are also unwholesome ones. Considering the jhanafactors as they are developed in jhana is useful. I posted something about this subject before. They have functions while one is engaged with the meditation subject. They are often mentioned in the suttas. Htoo answered about mudita, it is a sobhana cetasika different from feeling. We may confuse the two and also quite easily take pleasant feeling with lobha (it is such a nice feeling) for mudita. Joy based on the home life: arising on account of clinging to sense objects. Nina op 02-09-2004 01:03 schreef plnao op plnao@j...: > Ph: As I explained in another thread today, seeking jhanas does not seem to > be an option for me in this lifetime for reasons explained there. If that is > the case, do you think there is still value in considering jhana factors? > They do arise in daily life? 35959 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Sep 2, 2004 11:07am Subject: Re: [dsg] "Deeds of Merit" Correction of Views - degrees of right view Hello Phil, op 02-09-2004 01:35 schreef plnao op plnao@j...: Please feel free to jump in with any comments. N: Yes, I feel free. Ph: So I would guess that there > is yet another degree of right view that is not only knowing that panna > *should* be developed, but actually *is* the panna that arises to see deeply > into realities and know them as not-self. I would guess that the degrees of > right view mentioned above by K Sujin are achievable through diligent study, > discussion and reflection, but that the deeper degree of right view that is > panna is much more beyond our control, much rarer - maybe not in this > lifetime even if we study hard. N: About the last sentence: if we say: not in this lifetime we are already limiting conditions. There are conditions and they can be cultivated. We tend to forget that if we keep on saying: O, beyond control. If we take that the wrong way it is paralyzing. In her Perfections A. Sujin explains a great deal about the right effort of the Bodhisatta. So, the right conditions to be cultivated are what I mentioned to you recently: there are many. All the perfections. It is all a question of balance: no expectations, and no forcing, and on the other hand: not passively waiting in idleness. Everyone has to work this out for himself, in his own life, his own situation. Nina. 35960 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Sep 2, 2004 11:07am Subject: Intro Vis. XIV, 97 and Tiika Intro Vis. XIV, 97 and Tiika Vis. XIV, 97: Receiving-consciousness, sampa.ticchana-citta. ***************************************** [The resultant] 'mind-element' has the characteristic of cognizing [respectively] visible data, etc., immediately next to (eye consciousness, and so on. Its function is to receive visible data, and so on. It is manifested as the state [of receiving] corresponding to that [last-mentioned function] [37]. Its proximate cause is the departure of eye-consciousness, and so on. Investigating-consciousness, santiira.na-citta. **************************************** Also the twofold resultant 'mind-consciousness-element without root cause' with the function of investigating, etc., has as its characteristic the cognizing of the six kinds of objects. Its function is that of investigating, and so on. It is manifested as the state [of investigating] corresponding to that [last-mentioned function]. Its proximate cause is the heart-basis. ------------------- note 37. The meaning of the expression 'tathaabhaava-paccupa.t.thaana' appears more clearly where it is used again at par.108. In this definition (saadhana) the function (kicca-rasa) in fact describes the verb action (kicca) while the manifestation (paccupat.t.haana) describes the relevant nounal state (bhaava). So 'tathaabhaava' means that what has just been taken as a function (e.g. 'receiving') is to be taken also as a state ('reception'). Intro to Vis. 97 and Tiika. It is useful to remember which cittas are cause, namely kusala cittas and akusala cittas, which cittas are results, vipaakacittas and which cittas are inoperative, neither cause nor result, kiriyacittas. Thus, there are four jaatis: kusala, akusala, vipaaka and kiriya. If we, for example, do not know when vipaakacittas such as seeing or hearing arises and when akusala citta which is likely to arise on account of a desirable or undesirable object experienced through the senses, our life is very confused. Because of ignorance we accumulate more akusala and we do not know the way to cultivate conditions for right understanding and for different kinds of kusala. After the Visuddhimagga has dealt with kusala and akusala, it deals with indeterminate dhamma, following the Tripartite division of kusala dhamma, akusala dhamma and indeterminate (avyaakata) dhamma. The cittas which are indeterminate include vipaakacittas and kiriyacittas. When seeing arises it does so in a series or process of cittas which also experience visible object while they perform each their own function. Before seeing arises, the eye-door adverting-consciousness adverts to the visible object through the eye-door, and it is the same in the case of the other sense-door processes. The first citta arising in a sense-door process is the kiriyacitta which is the five-door adverting-consciousness, pañca-dvaaraavajjana-citta. It arises after the life-continuum and it is the first attention to the sense object that impinges on one of the five sense-doors. It is also called mind-element, mano-dhaatu. It is succeeded by the relevant sense-cognition, such as seeing, which is vipaakacitta, and this is succeeded by receiving-consciousness, sampa.ticchana-citta. Receiving-consciousness, sampa.ticchana-citta. ***************************************** This is also called mind-element, mano-dhaatu. One type is kusala vipaaka and one type is akusala vipaaka. Thus, three cittas are mind-element, mano-dhaatu, namely: the kiriyacitta which is the five-door adverting-consciousness and the two types of vipaakacittas which are receiving-consciousness, sampa.ticchana-citta, one being kusala vipaakacitta and one akusala vipaakacitta. In this section and the following ones the Visuddhimagga deals first with kusala vipaaka. The receiving-consciousness is succeeded by investigating-consciousness, santiira.na-citta which may be kusala vipaaka or akusala vipaaka. In this section the Visuddhimagga deals with kusala vipaaka. Investigating-consciousness, santiira.na-citta. **************************************** The santiira.na-citta that is kusala vipaaka is twofold: depending on whether the object is moderately pleasant or very pleasant it is respectively accompanied by indifferent feeling or pleasant feeling. This shall be explained further later on. The translator has a note to the Vis. text explaining that the function of receiving-consciousness is to receive visible data, and so on and that its manifestation is the state [of receiving]corresponding to that [last-mentioned function]. He explains the term < tathaa bhaava> that is translated here as a state. Tathaabhaava means being of such nature, of such condition. The Expositor (p. 84) explains the term manifestation, recurring phenomenon, as mode of manifestation or effect. Manifestation can be effect or fruit. The function of receiving-consciousness is receiving and this is also its manifestation or effect. The santiira.na-citta experiences the five sense objects, but it can also experience six objects, and that is, other kinds of objects apart from the five sense objects. The reason is that at different moments this type of citta can perform different functions, as will be elaborated on in the next section. The Tiika mentions as functions of investigating-consciousness: investigating, retention, rebirth-consciousness, life-continuum (bhavanga) and dying. The investigating-consciousness can also perform the function of retention after the javana-cittas. Moreover, the rebirth-consciousness may be ahetuka vipaakacitta, resultant without wholesome roots and in that case it is of the same type as the santiira.na-citta. The life-continuum and the dying-consciousness are the same type of citta as the rebirth-consciousness. *** Nina. 35961 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Sep 2, 2004 0:14pm Subject: Re: [dsg]details of the Tiika Dear Sarah, (and Larry also), op 02-09-2004 09:33 schreef sarah abbott op sarahprocterabbott@y...: > KS: >So we start from that which can be seen now - just a reality, > developing understanding of it. Otherwise we’ll follow the words - we’re > floating in the sea of words and concepts while reality is now appearing. > KS: >Pariyatti just tells us to understand reality as it is, so when one > begins to understand the meaning of it, one stops the idea of how many > [or nth part] and so on no matter who said that. N: I did not take up this detailed point about the measure of visible object which I did not understand in my Tiika transl, I just skipped it. I skipped large parts! I just saved it as a Q. for Bgk. I try to make choices in the Tiika, it is too long at times. But I would like your advice. With each Intro I try to explain the main points so that people do not get drowned in terms. I spend a lot of time with it, but if it is not useful I better stop. In fact, I am always short of time, I do not mind. S: Sukin and I mentioned the value of translation work and the need for you > (Nina) to check the details accurately, but again K.Sujin stressed that we > need to understand the purpose of talking and study in order to develop > the understanding of anattaness, not to learn details which we’ll just > forget at the end of this life. N: I try as best as I can not to forget the purpose, with whatever I am doing or writing, all day long. Also my translation of the Co. to Rahula, I just had this goal in mind. Sarah and Larry, are there too many details in my Tiika work? I need to know this. I talked to Lodewijk about it and he said that when he hears: only reality now, we have to know seeing now, it is not helpful for him. He always has trouble when he attends sessions in Bgk and hears this. It is very personal, different for each individual what is helpful. We agreed that there are many different kinds of people on a forum. People need to hear the Dhamma from different angles. He thinks that I should continue as I think good. Maybe I skip even more of the text, that saves time and energy. I try to always keep in mind: can it help people to understand realities now, as best as I can. But if you have time it will be appreciated if you also remind me and others about the goal of the study. You did this at the beginning of this Visuddhimagga thread. Nina. 35962 From: Andrew Levin Date: Thu Sep 2, 2004 2:21pm Subject: [dsg] Re: What should I do --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "plnao" wrote: > > > HI Andrew > > Thanks for your further comments. You have a sharp mind. Your ability to > look hard into theory and try to put it into practice intentionally > certainly outpaces mine. I seem to be more easygoing about it. Don't try to > push hard to understand the points I don't understand yet. That may be > wholesome patience, or unwholesome sloth. Probably both, rising in their > own way, beyond my control. OK. Just trying to get the job done. > > I've only got time to pick up a couple of points today. > > A: > Alright, let's try to get each other in line with what we're talking > > about. I haven't studied Vism. much well, but I do know that the > > first insight knowledge is delineation of mind and matter. Its > > requisite conditions are purification of virtue, the principles of > > insight meditation, that is, clearly comprehending one of the three > > dharma seals in each phenomenon, and the three types of energy to > > initiate and sustain meditation on the meditation subject. > > > > I don't see how this can be easily established without a good session > > on the cushion with attention to the meditation subject being wholly > > sustained in the time thereafter. The knowledge you should get is > > that there is physical breath, mental noticing, physical breath, > > mental noticing. Are we on the same page here? > > Ph: I think the key words here are "easily established." "Easily" is out of > the question because we know how long it took the Buddha. The difference is he strived for complete Buddhahood, and we are talking about seeing the impermanence of phenomenon. This can come about when the conditions are right, the conditions being practising the principles of insight meditation, being in sustained contemplation. The view of impermanence should arise rather easily once this is the case. This is my experience too. My point was that mindfulness of the meditation subject would be considerably easier to establish in a dedicated 20 minute sitting session than while rolling through day to day life, for one because we get to go through the different phases of the breath and develop concentration a little bit easier. This is also my experience. I have not thoroughly followed the practise guide, but I have been able to see some degree of the selflessness of phenomenon after meditation, though it slipped because I was not retaining clear comprehension, that is, I was not dedicated to keeping the practise up. So I think you need that initial sitting session, and then you carry your meditation with you throughout the day, and return to the formal sitting at different intervals of time. In my experience, establishing onesself in breathing meditation while walking does not result in clear comprehension of the three dharma seals. Id like to know what sort of insight-knowledges youve had as I am unable to see how they could come about without establishing onesself in clear comprehension, that is, seeing the true nature of things, in the way I have described. > "Established", > which is a word you use quite often, and I also like (you had me thiking > about "established in virtue" as I did my walk in the park the other day) is > dangerous, in my opinion. Again, conditions at work make it unwise, in my > opinion, to believe that anything is established yet. I think sotapanna is > the first time anything is clearly established, and that thing is freedom > from doubt, and freedom from wrong view of self. Since I know I am not > sotapanna, by a long way, the first thing I am hoping to establish on the > path is a firm intellectual understanding of annata, annica and dukkha and > the four noble truths that, along with as much sati that comes my way, and > the development of Brahma-Viharas, will condition eradication of self-view > in some lifetime to come, and arrival at sotapanna. I guess that's why I > always talk these days about conditions at work, and suspect self still at > work behind my Dhamma practice. Being established in virtue is easy. One is purified simply by practising mindfulness and committing no evil deeds, indeed even further by reflection on past evil deeds so as not to committ them in the future. It sounds like you have a plan with the Brahma-Viharas, from what I have read they are excellent abidings for numerous reasons, not the least of which being they can absorb the effects of past negative karma. > > I agree with you that meditation is absolutely necessary on the path. At > some point. Is serious meditation possible now, in this lifetime? That also > depends on conditions. In my case, conditions have not come together to make > serious meditation and seeking of jhanas in this lifetime possible. I wish I > could seek jhanas. But I have to accept that it does not appear to be > possible in this lifetime. I live in a small apartment, with noisy > neighbours, an affectionate wife who wants to spend a lot of time together > (the feeling is mutual) and very strong hindrances of ill will and sensual > lust that will remain too strong in this lifetime, I suspect, for progress > to be made in jhanas. I can work on loosening the roots of those hindrances > in this lifetime, and that may help to condition the arising of a lifetime > in which jhanas become possible. That's the way I look at it now. I know it > is dangerous to put things off because we don't know if we will have the > opportunity to practice Dhamma in the next lifetime, but in my opinion > trying to force jhanas into this lifetime when the conditions are not right > for it would only make it less likely to have a real shot at them in a > lifetime to come. > > Of course you're not talking about jhanas here. But I guess what I said > above applies to any form of serious formal meditation. It is too bad that you do not have the conditions to keep a regular meditation practise. I am not in the best of health, but sometimes I can manage to sit and do some vipassana with energy and really feel that I'm taking refuge in the triple gem. I aspire to cultivate at least the first of the Brahma-Viharas, that is, good will, to cancel out tendencies towards ill will and malevolence I have, and to hinder the ripening of past 'bad' deeds I have done. Plus who doesn't want good will towards their fellow men? :P I would also like to attain jhana, especially for the stability of mind it provides, but I am lacking in confidence that I will be able to attain it. My guide to jhana is Ayya Khema's "Who is My-self" and she says that contentment, gratitude, and loving-kindness are a good starting point for jhana.. well, I have none of the three so I'm a good ways from it. :P But perhaps one day I can get there just from absorption concentration. Who knows? > > > > What you are saying is that there is that there is a self that directs > > the processes and that this is equivalent to wrong view of self. This > > is not consistent. Whatsoever in the psycho-physical organism that is > > the mindfulness, or attention factor, can apply itself, or be applied, > > or be developed and extended to apply, to all observable phenomenon if > > the conditions are right. This is possible, this is the 100% > > observance I am talking about. > > Ph: But the conditions can't be so consistent, can they? There is kamma > working out from many lifetimes and from this lifetime in a way that simply > can't allow for 100% of anything, wholesome, or unwholesome. A mixed bag of > mental factors, unwholesome and unwholesome is inevitable, because of > conditions. That's just my beginner's understanding, so take it at that > level. I don't see how this is supposed to mean that we can't develop mindfulness. Mindfulness is not the result of kamma, mindfulness is heading towards the end of kamma. On a side note, I think many of us do have excellent past kamma, to the point where if we established ourselves in the Brahma-Viharas and conducted ourselves well in this lifetime, we could be in the cycle of the wise man the Buddha describes, in which one conducts onesself well on Earth in body, speech, and mind, and goes to heaven for a long time, falls to Earth, repeat ad infinitum. Sometimes I just look at how fortunate I am and think I must have conducted myself very, very well in previous lifetimes and wished to be born among well-to-do householders and it kind of sucks cause I haven't made the best of it, but I digress. I will stick to my guns and say that complete mindfulness is a factor. Even the Buddha describes mindfulness without lapse, taken to its culmination as a factor for enlightenment. > That's why I also would mention that believing a certain kind of > practice can assure rebirth in a certain realm as you mentioned yesterday > could be dangerous because it could be kamma from a previous life that > provides the rebirth consiousness, not necessarily this lifetime. I know you > base that belief on a sutta you refer to, so I may be wrong there. > Eh if one does a lot of evil deeds this lifetime one can expect to go to a bad bourne, good deeds, a good bourne, I would think this lifetime is the predominant factor, especially if one is very fortunate and it seems he hasn't killed his parents or committed any major sins in near previous lifetimes. But that's just my take on things. > I just encourage patience. I think you might be pushing too hard, > expecting too much too soon. A presumptuous statement, but motivated by > metta. Patience, yes, but I like to think patience till death is too much. We have to realize that we only have a few decades on this planet and we have to work /here and now/ for results, there hereafter is so much more of an unknown. > I certainly am happy you're in this group. Your intelligence and > enthusiasm for Dhamma practice leap off the screen. /me smiles It is good discussing dharma with you, Phil. I look forward to any insights you might give me into practise. peace, AL 35963 From: plnao Date: Thu Sep 2, 2004 3:18pm Subject: Deeds of Merit - Correction of v iews - supports the other good deeds More from the Chapter on Correction of Views in ¡ÈDeeds of Merit¡É by K Sujin (available at Zolag) K. S; Of the ten kinds of meritorious actions, three kinds have been classified under daana, three under siila and three under bhaavanaa, and these are altogether nine. With regard to the correction of ones views, this can be considered under the aspect of daana, of siila or of bhaavanaa, depending on the particular kind of wholesomeness it goes together with. Ph: Off the top of my head, I come up with a garden analogy. In the garden of wholesome deeds, there is a daana patch, a siila patch and a bhavaanaa patch. They are not too strictly divided from each other, growing together in a way that supports each other. They do not compete for light or choke each other out the way some plants that grow together do. Where does Correction of Views fit in the analogy? Is it the earth that the others grow in? Nah. The light or the good water that allows them to flourish? Maybe. The effort of the gardener to prevent weeds from choking everything out? No, that is the avoidance of akusala, which is in the sila patch. I don ¡Çt know. Maybe it¡Çs turning the earth over every morning to let oxygen get in and prevent wrong view from settling in. But that would uproot the vegetables. What a silly analogy. Or is it? Maybe we do cultivate good deeds the way we cultivate vegetables in a garden. I might think about this some more. K. S. : Correction of one¡Çs views, right understanding of each kind of reality, is a condition for the development of other ways of wholesomeness as well. Knowing, for example, that sincerity or honesty is beneficial, is a condition to see the disadvantage of lying and deceiving by body, speech or mind. When you see the disadvantage of what is unwholesome, you want to eliminate it, and in that way you accumulate what is wholesome. You accumulate wholesomeness such as daana, siila and bhaavanaa. It will become your nature to perform deeds of generosity, to observe moral conduct and to apply yourself to mental development, which includes the development of calm and the development of insight, vipassanaa. Ph: ¡ÈWhen you see the disadvantage of what is unwholesome, you want to eliminate it, and in that way you accumulate what is wholesome.¡É This reminds me of what I read yesterday in Nina¡Çs series on ¡ÈRemoval of Distracting Thoughts.¡É (Thank you for sending me the posts I was missing, Nina. I will be reading them carefully and asking questions later. And thank you for your comment on the last post in this series. Very helpful) In the case of sensual attraction, if the first method of reflecting on the foulness of the body to remove the unwholesome thought doesn¡Çt work, the monk is encouraged to reflect on the disadvantages of unwholesomeness. (If I recall correctly, I have only read through it once so far.) To me, this would seem more effective. There are reasons I believe reflecting on foulness does not work for me, at least not yet. So I can understand how correction of views practiced by seeing the disadvantage of what is unwholesome will help with another one of the deeds of merit ? avoidance of akusala. Metta, Phil p.s Away for a few days ? well, computer has to be shut down for repairs. Have a pleasant weekend, everyone. 35964 From: plnao Date: Thu Sep 2, 2004 4:23pm Subject: Re: [dsg] "Deeds of Merit" Correction of Views - degrees of right view Hello Nina, and all > N: About the last sentence: if we say: not in this lifetime we are already > limiting conditions. > There are conditions and they can be cultivated. We tend to forget that if > we keep on saying: O, beyond control. If we take that the wrong way it is > paralyzing. Ph: This is similar to what Herman was saying about fragile egos feeling powerless and it leading to trouble. We knew there is control, but it is so subtle. I guess it might be the subtlest thing in the Buddha's teaching. I think of that sutta about crossing the flood. Here it is. Samyutta Nikaya 1:1. "I have heard that on one occasion the Blessed One was staying near Savatthi in Jeta's Grove, Anathapindika's monastery. Then a certain devata, in the far extreme of the night, her extreme radiance lighting up the entirety of Jeta's Grove, went to the Blessed One. On arrival, having bowed down to him, she stood to one side. As she was standing there, she said to him, "Tell me, dear sir, how you crossed over the flood." "I crossed over the flood without pushing forward, without staying in place." "But how, dear sir, did you cross over the flood without pushing forward, without staying in place?" "When I pushed forward, I was whirled about. When I stayed in place, I sank. And so I crossed over the flood without pushing forward, without staying in place." This is so subtle. It is all about patience, and finding that control *is* there but it is not something we can grasp and wield like a power tool. Metta, Phil 35965 From: Date: Thu Sep 2, 2004 5:18pm Subject: Re: [dsg] child, villager, money changer. Hi Nina, One point I would like to clarify is when does perception come into play as a simile (this is like that). Of course perception (sanna) arises with every consciousness but I suspect the consciousness that is being talked about here is kusala or akusala in javana. We could possibly say that the recognizing aspect of perception is paramount in determining consciousness (votthapana citta) but this is so brief I think it more likely that a kusala or akusala consciousness dominated by perception would be the case. When we get to perception in the Visuddhimagga it gives the example of a young deer (emphasis on the "young") who sees a scare-crow and identifies it as a man. This is a good example of the simile and naivete. We could apply this to a single consciousness process, several moments in our day, or a stage of life that may last for many years, or even many life-times. The same could apply to conceptually labelling experience as impermanent, unsatisfactory, not self. The distinguishing characteristic of panna is not only that it experiences impermanence, unsatisfactoriness, and not self, but also that it discerns the distinguishing characteristic (sabhava) of the object. A good starting point here is distinguishing between concept and reality, or, in more practical terms, simply identifying concept as mere concept. Can we say that all akusala consciousness and all kusala consciousness without panna conceptualizes the object even if the object is a reality? Otherwise we would have to say one of these consciousnesses sees reality as it is, but this is the exclusive domain of panna. Technically speaking, even 5-door consciousness doesn't see reality "as it is", but I don't think we should say that 5-door consciousness conceptualizes the object. This is sort of an indeterminate area with regard to the concept and reality distinction. Larry 35966 From: Date: Thu Sep 2, 2004 5:35pm Subject: Re: [dsg]details of the Tiika Hi Nina, I think you are the best judge of how much tika to include. It's difficult to make a hard and fast rule. One never knows; there may be a priceless gem in the next sentence. Personally, I can do without most of the tika but I think your own commentary is essential. I think we have to write to the level of whoever is posting. So if we get even one new person we should try to include them in what is being discussed. Also, I would like to go through this third part of Vism. several times in this life. So I think we are going to have to do some snipping. I would rather get the whole picture with not so many details and then maybe look at different details the next time around. I think we should post all of the basic text each time. Larry 35967 From: Antony Woods Date: Thu Sep 2, 2004 10:37pm Subject: Buddha's defense policy Dear Group, Here is a short sutta that seems very topical - the Buddha's defense policy. with metta (friendliness) / Antony. Samyutta Nikaya III.5 Atta-rakkhita Sutta Self-protected At Savatthi. As he was sitting to one side, King Pasenadi Kosala said to the Blessed One: "Just now, lord, while I was alone in seclusion, this train of thought arose in my awareness: 'Who have themselves protected, and who leave themselves unprotected?' Then it occurred to me: 'Those who engage in bodily misconduct, verbal misconduct, & mental misconduct leave themselves unprotected. Even though a squadron of elephant troops might protect them, a squadron of cavalry troops, a squadron of chariot troops, a squadron of infantry troops might protect them, still they leave themselves unprotected. Why is that? Because that's an external protection, not an internal one. Therefore they leave themselves unprotected. But those who engage in good bodily conduct, good verbal conduct, & good mental conduct have themselves protected. Even though neither a squadron of elephant troops, a squadron of cavalry troops, a squadron of chariot troops, nor a squadron of infantry troops might protect them, still they have themselves protected. Why is that? Because that's an internal protection, not an external one. Therefore they have themselves protected.'" "That's the way it is, great king! That's the way it is! Those who engage in bodily misconduct, verbal misconduct, & mental misconduct leave themselves unprotected. Even though a squadron of elephant troops might protect them, a squadron of cavalry troops, a squadron of chariot troops, a squadron of infantry troops might protect them, still they leave themselves unprotected. Why is that? Because that's an external protection, not an internal one. Therefore they leave themselves unprotected. But those who engage in good bodily conduct, good verbal conduct, & good mental conduct have themselves protected. Even though neither a squadron of elephant troops, a squadron of cavalry troops, a squadron of chariot troops, nor a squadron of infantry troops might protect them, still they have themselves protected. Why is that? Because that's an internal protection, not an external one. Therefore they have themselves protected." That is what the Blessed One said. Having said that, the One Well-Gone, the Teacher, said further: "Restraint with the body is good, good is restraint with speech. Restraint with the heart is good, good is restraint everywhere. Restrained everywhere, conscientious, one is said to be protected." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn03-005.html 35968 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Sep 2, 2004 10:45pm Subject: Re: [dsg]details of the Tiika Dear Nina (& Larry),....oh and now I’ve brought Howard into it and Lodewijk as well;-), --- LBIDD@w... wrote: > Hi Nina, > > I think you are the best judge of how much tika to include. It's > difficult to make a hard and fast rule. ..... I agree with Larry's comments and Lodewijk’s which was similar, I think. Personally, I greatly appreciate the detail you include from the Tika and your comments, but I also think it should just be as and when you feel inclined to add it and you’re the only one who can judge. It also depends on the conditions at the time. We may decide to leave a difficult text and then a few minutes pick it up again to have another look anyway. After I wrote to Howard on the Patisambhidamagga, I decided to leave it, like Howard, but then a little later started comparing the Pali terms for the first section with the beginning of the DN sutta and found how closely matched they both are. (Difficult, therefore, to see how this text (Pts) can be said to be inconsistent with the suttas....but that’s another thread;-). I’d rather leave the pace to Larry and yourself but his suggestion to keep the Vism text moving seems sensible. I don’t think it ever matters if yours or anyone else’s comments are to earlier posts or if we lag behind anytime, such as when we’re on a trip. This might encourage others like Howard or Htoo to participate more as well, but as he (Howard) once said, no one need ever need feel obliged to respond to any posts anytime.....;-) [Actually, I’d particularly like to hear Howard’s comments on the passages recently quoted on seeing consciousness and visible object which seem at some variance with a couple of his recent comments to me and Agrios. (Perhaps I should put it the other way round and say his comments seem at variance with what we read in the Vism, so if this is so, do we really think we know better or understand ‘the experiencing’ and ‘experienced’ better?).] I’ll try to refer to passages or add comments when I can. By tendency (rather than rule) I seem to give priority to newcomers and those addressing comments or qus directly to me or any threads I just can’t resist joining in for any reason. So often, I have marks on Tika passages to refer to or add comments on, but don’t get round to it. It's the same with some other series like B.Bodhi's which I'd intended to comment on. I suppose it’s always a combination of what we think is most useful or productive at anytime and what (in my case) I enjoy or find relatively easy to respond to. I know there are others who also find all your Vism and Tika extracts/posts very helpful, even if they seldom comment. Htoo recently mentioned this for one. No need to feel discouraged at all. Otherwise it’s just more dosa to be known now, not ‘mine’ or ‘yours’ at all. As K.Sujin would say, understanding these conditioned dhammas (such as the discouragement) is the present pariyatti:-). It’s a sign of your great confidence in the Teachings -- and her direct reminders to really understand the present truths contained in them -- that you persist with all your excellent written series for all our benefit. The path takes a lot of courage, sincerity and patience as we keep reminding each other. So often we’d like to think the problem is this or that ‘situation’ or ‘story’, but it’s really the lack of understanding and detachment towards the presently appearing dhamma. That’s why I find it such a tonic to hear and consider more about dhammas and am less and less interested in understanding ‘situational problems’ which can only ever help on a conventional level. I heard K.Sujin on a tape remind people that only vipassana can eradicate kilesa, not even jhana, much less right speech or action without any panna. Because if “that person is still that person, there is no idea of how to eradicate the idea of self”. This is why the hearing and understanding about seeing and visible object or other dhammas appearing now is the most precious teaching, however tough the medicine may be at times for us all. I hope this helps a little. Metta and appreciation, Sarah p.s I know Jon also plans to add a note of encouragement when (or if) he has time. =================== 35969 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Sep 3, 2004 1:27am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Bagels, Forest & Happy Walks Hi AL, Thanks again for your helpful feedback. More on Spotlights ============= A: > I don't see how reading and reflecting can lead to awareness arising. > Again, I learned the spotlight method. I think it has some roots in > scripture, too. .... S: When there is so little awareness in a day, we tend to lack confidence about what we read and hear with regard to the development of wisdom and awareness and doubt about the namas and rupas as the realities to be known. Like you say later with regard to the ladder...theory and practice working together. If we haven’t heard about seeing and visible object of body consciousness and hardness, there won’t be any awareness of them. We’ll just think we’re aware of posture or seeing particular images or fantasies. Please explain further about the spotlighting. I think that self-view or an idea of control or making certain dhammas arise can be quite subtle. Is there any wishing for particular states or thinking they can be induced with this method? .... A: > "And what is the treasure of generosity? There is the case of a > disciple of the noble ones, his awareness cleansed of the stain of > stinginess, living at home, freely generous, openhanded, delighting in > being magnanimous, responsive to requests, delighting in the > distribution of alms. This is called the treasure of generosity." > > That's done through the spotlight method. I cleansed my awareness > /partially/ that way. ... S: When I read this delightful passage on the treasure of generosity, it’s a reminder of the value of being openhanded and so on. By the development of satipatthana, the stain of stinginess is eventually eradicated permanently. By satipatthana all kusala and akusala states are known for what they are, as well as other namas and rupas appearing. Can we say awareness ‘spoltlights’ the presently appearing dhamma? .... A: >So there's still the chance I can finish up the > job and use that awareness to combat my depression and other states. > That's what my meditation manual said it can do, and I believe it to > be possible. .... S: Of course it’s panna that will start, continue and finish up the job;-) Of course we’d all like to be rid of the wretched, unpleasant states and particularly troublesome defilements, but awareness and panna don’t select. They just function to be aware and know what is conditioned. This is the way that eventually all defilements will be eradicated as it says in the Tipitaka. Not by any selecting or special spotlighting. I think the weights begin to be lifted as soon as our views become straightened;-) ..... Slow Walking ========== A: > As I mentioned in another post, I find slow, mindful walks can really > help right understanding to develop, or at least the first 'stirrings' > of right understanding to borrow the term from accesstoinsight.org, > seeing the truths expounded in the texts, but I wouldnt go so far as > to say I've had a 'click' factor yet. .... S: I like the expression ‘first stirrings of right understanding’. If we follow any ritual at all -- whether it be slow walking, sitting on a cushion, memorising texts, recalling dreams or any other -- in order to have these ‘first stirrings’, then it’s silabbataparamasa (adherence to rites and rituals) and the opposite of the path of detachment I just wrote about. However, if you like to walk slowly or follow any other activity, then fine -- these stirrings can arise anytime with the right conditions. Step by Step through the insight knowledges ================================== A: > One of the practise guides I have really takes you step by step > through the insight knowledges and lays out the conditions for the > arising of each. .... S: All those years back when I was an earnest Mahasi style meditator and a teacher’s pet as I followed all instructions to the letter, I used to also follow step by step through the insight knowledges. When I started listening to K.Sujin and reading Nina’s books or manuscripts as they mostly were then, fortunately there was enough of a stirring to realise immediately that the practise had all been horribly misguided and the seeming success on the step by step through the insight knowledges could be put down to strong attachment and wrong view. In fact there wasn’t even a basic understanding of nama and rupa, let alone any developed wisdom as I’d been encouraged to believe. Wrong views about one’s practise and spiritual achievements can be very dangerous and lead us way off track. I’m very glad you don’t have such illusions about having high levels of wisdom or samatha developmnt, Al. This is so important. ..... A: >I'm afraid if I don't practise in accordance with > such a way, or if I just try to be mindful of a nama here and a rupa > there I'll never get anywhere. I want to really practise in > accordance with the sutta, develop all four frames of reference. ... S: Develop all four frames of reference, but only by being aware of one reality at a time. As the Vism quote showed (which Nina and Larry are discussing), when there is seeing, there cannot be hearing. When there is seeing, that’s all there is -- no body consciousness experiences, no defilements arising, just hearing which hears sound. If it seems there is more than one experience at a time or more than one object can be known at a time or that concepts can be known by awareness (satipatthana), it’s thinking. This is not in accordance with any of the suttas or the Abhidhamma. Later you asked the meaning of javana cittas. Simply put, the defilements or wholesome qualities never arise at moments of seeing or body consciousness experiencing or with certain other cittas arising such as those arising when we’re in a deep sleep (bhavanga cittas). They only arise with the javana cittas in a sense door or mind door process. I don’t wish to get too technical (you can find the details under ‘processes’ in U.P.) My intention in mentioning these cittas was just to show that it’s impossible for anyone --even an arahant -- to have continual awareness with every citta. More Tangles;-) ============ A: > Ha, ha, when is the tangle going to be sorted out. Isn't that what > the whole vissudhimagga is about, untangling the tangle? :O .... S: Yes, untangling the thicket of views.... “A man established on virtue, wise, Developing the mind and wisdom, A bhikkhu ardent and discreet: He can disentangle this tangle.” SN1:23(3) Tangle Concentration ========== A:> This is merely what is stated is necessary in the commentaries. > Access concentration is the level of concentration wherein the > hindrances are suppressed. It can be gotten by breath meditation > after a certain time, or by some other meditations, including the > meditations on the elements, which seems harder. .... S: Only if there is sufficient wisdom (at level of samatha) developed on account of understanding how the object brings wholesome calm. Not just by selecting an object and concentrating on it. For the development of satipatthana, the object has to be a paramattha dhamma (nama or rupa) and nowhere is it said that access concentration has to be developed first for this. It has to be very natural....no big deal or special experience at all. .... A: >Harder to be mindful > of the elements in your entire body than to develop concentration > while sitting on the cushion, right? .... S: Developing concentration is easy. Understanding whether the citta now is wholesome or unwholesome is hard. Sincerity in practice and detachment towards whatever dhamma is conditioned takes a lot of patience and courage. .... Immersion in the four foundations ========================= A: >You know how in the > commentaries and scripture it's described such and such a person might > ask another which of the foundations of mindfulness they established > themselves in, and they would say from time to time we practise the > four foundations of mindfulness? That's how I do, but at this current > time I am not practising. ... S: Like at the well or whilst washing or anytime without any selection. In other words, by giving up the idea of someone practising or being able to develop satipatthana at will or by having expectations. .... Contemplation ========== S: I agree with you that as used in translation it refers to direct understanding (not thinking).Thank you for that. A: > "Thus a bhikkus lives contemplating the body [internally or externally > etc]" and "Anyone who develops these four frames of reference for [7 > days->7 yrs] can expect one of two results" both to me seem to point > to living in contemplation of these foundations of mindfulness, in > vipassana. .... S: Understanding the namas and rupas (i.e four foundations), one reality at a time. I agree this is the meaning of vipassana. .... Being Quiet ========= A: > But being quiet is an attempt to avoid idle chatter and speaking bad > words which ALWAYS seem to defile me with evil. .... S: I appreciate it that you see the harm of ‘evil’ states. However, I think it’s the wrong way round if we try to avoid situations because we know there will be some unwholesome states arising. For example, when I teach difficult teenage boys, I know there is bound to be impatience and annoyance arising during class, but when we appreciate these are merely conditioned dhammas, they can be known as such without any clinging to being the ‘pure person’ or minding at all. When I lived those months in the forest in Sri Lanka following my meditation practise, there was never any wrong speech because I never spoke, except occasionally to the bhikkhu in charge. As you can see, I'm a pretty sociable person and this was very unnatural for me;-).Any kind of suppression or austerity does not take us any closer to the developed wisdom which will eventually eradicate these defilements. They have to be known for what they are when they arise and are apparent. A child or an animal may not have conditions for wrong views to arise for example, but that doesn’t mean there is any knowledge or wisdom at all. In other words, wisdom can be measured by the amount of apparent defilements arising in a day. Every morning when I do some yoga, have a swim or a walk, I know there will be plenty of attachment arising. However, I don’t see that there’s any need to have any fear about this common attachment which doesn’t hurt anyone. The development of understanding is most important because it can understand such attachment or anger or any other dhamma as anatta. Of course, if we know we’re really going to hurt someone or cause offence, then it’s much better to avoid speaking altogether on that occasion. This is kindness or consideration. There can be metta instead. But if our fear is about accumulating more unwholesomeness for ourselves, then perhaps the present reality is the deep-rooted clinging to self at this time. “Having known as useless any austerity Aimed at the immortal state, that all such penances are futile Like oars and rudder on dry land.” SN4:1(1) Austere Practice ***** S: I think we have more to run on this thread and also the one about only knowing one dhamma at a time - one world at a time. I may have to start quoting some Abhidhamma, if this doesn’t suffice;-) **** SN35:68 (6) Samiddhi (4), Bodhi translation: “Venerable sir, it is said, ‘the world, the world.’ In what way, venerable sir, might there be the world or the description of the world?”* “Where there is the eye, Samiddhi, where there are forms, eye-consciousness, things to be cognized by eye-consciousness, there the world exists or the description of the world. “Where there is the ear....the mind, where there are mental phenomena, mind-consciousness, things to be cognized by mind-consciousnes, there the world exists or the description of the world. “Where there is no eye, Samiddhi, no forms, no eye-consciousness, no things to be cognized by eye-consciousness, there the world does not exist nor any description of the world. “Where there is no ear..no mind, no mental phenomena, no mind-consciousness, no things to be cognized by mind-consciousness, there the world does not exist nor any description of the world.” ***** Enjoying your discussions with Phil and others too. Metta, Sarah ====== 35970 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Sep 3, 2004 1:40am Subject: Re: [dsg]details of the Tiika, Larry, Htoo. Hi Larry, Thank you very much for your sound, balanced advice. You help me very much. Especially the word by word translation has become a very heavy burden, but when I have undertaken something I am disinclined to back out. But now I have a better idea what to do next. op 03-09-2004 02:35 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > I think you are the best judge of how much tika to include. It's > difficult to make a hard and fast rule. One never knows; there may be a > priceless gem in the next sentence. N: I can read through the Tiika and render in my own words what I think is useful, now and then translating a sentence. L: Personally, I can do without most of the tika but I think your own > commentary is essential. I think we have to write to the level of > whoever is posting. So if we get even one new person we should try to > include them in what is being discussed. N: Writing the intros is not a burden, I always do this with pleasure, whereas the translations I do with heavy sighs. I repeat a lot in the intros, and try to get the whole picture, because I know that people easily forget what was said before. Also Htoo's series at the same time will help much. L: Also, I would like to go through this third part of Vism. several times > in this life. So I think we are going to have to do some snipping. N: I appreciate your enthusiasm about this subject. I gladly conform to your ideas about this. Only, the study should not be too hurried, then people have no time to consider what they read. The whole internet exchange is too hurriedly and it goes so fast. L: I would rather get the whole picture with not so many details and then > maybe look at different details the next time around. I think we should > post all of the basic text each time. N: There may not be a next time, that is the problem. But I shall keep in mind foremost what is relevant for our life now. Posting all of the basic text: we need a working program now. what do you suggest, looking ahead now to the next sections??? Some we can take together and I write one intro to several sections. Vis. XIV: difficult to make a choice, what is basic, what not. 102 unraffles body-consciousness and accompanying feeling, but this will also be explained under the feeling khandha again: 128. 103-105 can be taken together. 110 about functions of citta in short, and then 111-123 in detail about the functions, maybe this can be shortened. 124, I consider important, contains good reminders. Thus, it is not easy, we do not want to be incomplete as to the different cittas. Awaiting your further suggestions, Nina. 35971 From: christine_forsyth Date: Fri Sep 3, 2004 1:58am Subject: Re: Bill against religious conversion Hello Joop, Reply in-line below: --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jwromeijn" wrote: Joop says: > Thanks for your answers. When I found this DSG-Forum some months ago, > I thought it was a rather anonymous place to put questions, > information and opinions about (Theravada-)Dhamma. But after your > answers I realize better that's (also) a medium of communication of a > group of people who know each other for some years and meet in Sri > Lanka, Thailand en perhaps in Australia (Cooran mentioned many time > must be a village somewhere?) > So it was this difference in perception of the Forum that I put my > (perhaps to aggressive) questions. > Well I like the idea going with this group to Thailand this > (European) winter, must be a great (spiritual) experience. I read > your (and other) messages of the trip to Sri Lanka two years ago and > could identity myself with it. Christine says: It is true that some people in dsg have known each other for very many years - I think Jon, Sarah, Nina, and Azita go back at least a couple of decades where they knew each other and others in Thailand and Sri Lanka (hope that's correct). Many on the list have been here since the beginning - 28 December, 1999. When I first came to Buddhism - strange, I can't remember exactly how long ago now - a few years - I was on DL List in 2002 and asked a few questions that another member of both lists (RobK) suggested I ask on dsg. At first, I found dsg List quite daunting with all the technical terms and Pali - but after lurking for a while, soon acquired sufficient courage to start posting. I recall Sarah saying on-list that she and Jon and some other members were meeting K. Sujin at the Foundation in Bangkok (June 2002?) and that anyone else interested was very welcome to join them. I eventually decided to go and was given a warm, friendly welcome, learned lots about the Dhamma, and found that it made a great difference to interaction on- list as I now knew who I was talking to. The Sri Lanka and Myanmar trips renewed the friendship - with longer time spent together, sharing meals, rooms, and long bus trips. Many of us will again be together in mid-October for few weeks when we are on pilgrimage to the significant places in the Buddha's life in northern India and Nepal. Cooran is in South-East Queensland, Australia - about 2.5 hours drive north of Brisbane. It is the nearest tiny town to Andrew (Corvus) lovely property - about three times a year, a small group of us spend the weekend discussing Dhamma there. Joop says: > There are two Dhamma-points in your letter I want to say something > about, Christine: The anti-religious conversion law in Sri Lanka. After I conversed > myself to Buddhism my first western-liberal opinion anti religious > conversion was negative. But after some reflections I have my doubts: > I realize there are only three Theravada countries in the world and I > hope Theravada has a long future so it's bad when it will only be a > minority-"religion" in Sri Lanka. But such a law will not work, it's > to defensive, it will be better when Theravada will be modernized and > got more dynamic, more vital. My (superficial) opinion of Thailand is > that buddhism there is more future-directed as in Sri Lanka: this law > is > Perhaps it's to western but I think "state" and "religion" must be > divided from each other, no reference in a Constitution to > christianity and not to buddhism (etcetera of course). I have my > doubts about monks active in political parties, some of them were not > really pacifistic in the civil war between Singalese and Tamil in Sri > Lanka. (df the book of Tambiah "Buddhism betrayed") Christine says: The Buddha predicted that the Dhamma would be slowly distorted and eventually disappear. But each sovereign state will decide on the laws that it thinks best suit its people - no way to tell if it is counter-productive until it is in place. All the more reason for us to diligently persevere while we have the Dhamma relatively intact. Joop says: > Then the quote "The trouble is that you think you have time" > Christine: "… need to remember that the Buddha taught the dangers of > rebirth. That very very few are reborn in human form …" > Joop: I don't know if really the (pali-terms of) "dangers of rebirth" > are written in a Sutta but if, then I had to say again that I'm only > for three quarters a Theravadin: I don't want to live with such > anxieties, I don't have them. Christine says: I am not anxious - just conscious of the need to keep the Dhamma at the forefront of my life. Joop says: > I realise that I can die every moment now and I know I had not to > postpone to work with that knowledge and I think I do: buddhism is > the most important thing in my life now. But "not postpone" is not > the same as "hurry". > So I have time; on what "stage" or "step" of the path I am when I > die, doesn't bother me, I have faith in what I do now. > Partly it's something else but I like to read and contemplate on the > phenemena "time" itself. Cf the essays of Nyanaponika and Karunadasa > (in: www.lankalibrary.com/Bud/time.htm) about the question if 'time" > is a concept (pannatti) or a ultimate reality (paramattha). Christine says: Joop, I couldn't access your link about time - but you may also be interested in this question I once asked about time, and the answer I was given by a Dhamma friend from Bangkok, Amara. http://www.dhammastudy.com/q&a11.html > > Metta > Joop metta and peace, Christine 35972 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Sep 3, 2004 2:54am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Cooran 13-15 August, 2004 Hi KenH & Nina & All, --- nina van gorkom wrote: > Dear Sarah, > I would prefer pakatuupanissaya or natural strong dependence condition > to > the word accumulation, which I would use in the case of nama. Citta > accumulates. I see it more as mental. It may be a matter of language. ..... A little more came up in our discussions in Bangkok on concept as object condition and accumulations by way of pakatupanissaya paccaya (natural decisive support condition). This was partly with regard to KenH’s question in Cooran and the ambiguous comment I gave before when I quoted K.Sujin on accumulations. As you said here, it's partly a matter of language, but better to clear up. ..... On Saturday, K.Sujin referred to the accumulation of concepts when sa~n~naa (memory/perception) conditions thinking to arise and think about specific concepts, such as when “we remember who’s who.....there is the accumulation of concept, more than just reality”. Again she repeated that “everything is accumulated - for example concepts such as the idea about the Buddha....We remember any reality at all, even visible object....all arammana (objects) which have been experienced and condition the experience now.” As you have both stressed, we need to be careful not to misunderstand comments about “the accumulation of everthing - namas, rupas, concepts”. Really it’s the experience of rupas and concepts that it meant, as I understand too. Again she stressed that all experiences have pakatupanissaya paccaya as a conditioning factor (unless conditioned by the other upanissaya paccaya (decisive support conditions). For example, when seeing experiences a visible object, it leads to lots of concepts because they have been experienced before. There is lots of kamma accumulated, so it is pakatupanissaya paccaya which determines which will be the ‘right one’ in terms of bringing a result at anytime. So all experiences, i.e anything experienced, is accumulated. The latent tendencies (asaya) are all pakatupanissaya, but there is only ever one accumulation arising at a time. Of course, the conditioned state (the paccayuppanna dhamma) always refers to a citta and cetasikas. With regard to the object condition as a concept, as Nina said, it’s as arammana (object) only. That’s all. It conditions by way of sa~n~naa which marks the object when it’s experienced, according to one’s accumulations of thinking (cittas and cetasikas). We begin to see a little about the intricacy of conditions. There are so many other conditions involved as well of course. I hope this is clear. I’ve tried to stay close to my notes. Nina may wish to elaborate further or I can try to add more if it’s not clear. Thank you both for your input to the discussions! Metta, Sarah ====== 35973 From: Andrew Levin Date: Fri Sep 3, 2004 5:36am Subject: [dsg] Re: Bagels, Forest & Happy Walks --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Hi AL, > > Thanks again for your helpful feedback. > > More on Spotlights > ============= > A: > I don't see how reading and reflecting can lead to awareness arising. > > Again, I learned the spotlight method. I think it has some roots in > > scripture, too. > .... > S: When there is so little awareness in a day, we tend to lack confidence > about what we read and hear with regard to the development of wisdom and > awareness and doubt about the namas and rupas as the realities to be > known. Like you say later with regard to the ladder...theory and practice > working together. If we haven't heard about seeing and visible object of > body consciousness and hardness, there won't be any awareness of them. > We'll just think we're aware of posture or seeing particular images or > fantasies. > Ehh but how do you develop that awareness / understanding? Just through reading about it in the texts isn't enough. That's why I've found it can be developed on a slow, mindful walk, slows everything down and makes it apparent. > Please explain further about the spotlighting. I think that self-view or > an idea of control or making certain dhammas arise can be quite subtle. Is > there any wishing for particular states or thinking they can be induced > with this method? The spotlight method is just sort of a beam of bright awareness that you can focus on particular mental states, such as depression, fear, and miserliness. They weaken and dissipate when you shine the spotlight on them. It's pretty effective once you get it going but you need to sustain awareness of the tactile sensation of your breath until it takes birth. No wishing or anything involved. > .... > A: > "And what is the treasure of generosity? There is the case of a > > disciple of the noble ones, his awareness cleansed of the stain of > > stinginess, living at home, freely generous, openhanded, delighting in > > being magnanimous, responsive to requests, delighting in the > > distribution of alms. This is called the treasure of generosity." > > > > That's done through the spotlight method. I cleansed my awareness > > /partially/ that way. > ... > S: When I read this delightful passage on the treasure of generosity, it's > a reminder of the value of being openhanded and so on. By the development > of satipatthana, the stain of stinginess is eventually eradicated > permanently. By satipatthana all kusala and akusala states are known for > what they are, as well as other namas and rupas appearing. Can we say > awareness `spoltlights' the presently appearing dhamma? At what stage is stinginess eradicated completely w/ satipatthana? I'm skeptical, I'd think it would be later on. I know spotlight works, if you look at my eyes you can see I've done some work to clean it away. the 'spotlight' I'm referring to is a really literally a mental spotlight, we might use awareness to look at other nama and rupa but I don't know if we'd call it spotlighting. I'm kind of vague about what sense of awareness you are talking about. I'm thinking you mean mindfulness or sati, which I guess you could also call a spotlight, so yeah. > .... > A: >So there's still the chance I can finish up the > > job and use that awareness to combat my depression and other states. > > That's what my meditation manual said it can do, and I believe it to > > be possible. > .... > S: Of course it's panna that will start, continue and finish up the job;-) I don't see how this is the case. The method I'm referring to is pure awareness. > Of course we'd all like to be rid of the wretched, unpleasant states and > particularly troublesome defilements, but awareness and panna don't > select. They just function to be aware and know what is conditioned. This > is the way that eventually all defilements will be eradicated as it says > in the Tipitaka. Not by any selecting or special spotlighting. I think the > weights begin to be lifted as soon as our views become straightened;-) Yeah but depression isn't a defilement, it's a mental state that can be made to evaporate with the kind of awareness I'm talking about. That would go a long way towards helping me eradicate all defilements since I wouldn't be so depressed. > ..... > Slow Walking > ========== > A: > As I mentioned in another post, I find slow, mindful walks can really > > help right understanding to develop, or at least the first 'stirrings' > > of right understanding to borrow the term from accesstoinsight.org, > > seeing the truths expounded in the texts, but I wouldnt go so far as > > to say I've had a 'click' factor yet. > .... > S: I like the expression `first stirrings of right understanding'. If we > follow any ritual at all -- whether it be slow walking, sitting on a > cushion, memorising texts, recalling dreams or any other -- in order to > have these `first stirrings', then it's silabbataparamasa (adherence to > rites and rituals) and the opposite of the path of detachment I just wrote > about. However, if you like to walk slowly or follow any other activity, > then fine -- these stirrings can arise anytime with the right conditions. It wasn't a ritual. I was walking, and someone yelled out "snail boy" from their car, so I started walking slowly, and things started coming into focus. Almost felt like right understanding of contact and everything was there. But ya, first stirrings. If you have any other ideas on how to cultivate right view, please share. > Step by Step through the insight knowledges > ================================== > A: > One of the practise guides I have really takes you step by step > > through the insight knowledges and lays out the conditions for the > > arising of each. > .... > S: All those years back when I was an earnest Mahasi style meditator and a > teacher's pet as I followed all instructions to the letter, I used to also > follow step by step through the insight knowledges. > > When I started listening to K.Sujin and reading Nina's books or > manuscripts as they mostly were then, fortunately there was enough of a > stirring to realise immediately that the practise had all been horribly > misguided and the seeming success on the step by step through the insight > knowledges could be put down to strong attachment and wrong view. In fact > there wasn't even a basic understanding of nama and rupa, let alone any > developed wisdom as I'd been encouraged to believe. Well you can't really doubt the insight knowledges, they are described in the Vism. if I'm not mistaken and so it's just a matter of ascertaining whether or not you're really being taken through them. I still have confidence in the methods explored in this book so it would be good if you could share your experiences, where you went wrong, and how it's related to wrong view. > > Wrong views about one's practise and spiritual achievements can be very > dangerous and lead us way off track. I'm very glad you don't have such > illusions about having high levels of wisdom or samatha developmnt, Al. > This is so important. > ..... > A: >I'm afraid if I don't practise in accordance with > > such a way, or if I just try to be mindful of a nama here and a rupa > > there I'll never get anywhere. I want to really practise in > > accordance with the sutta, develop all four frames of reference. > ... > S: Develop all four frames of reference, but only by being aware of one > reality at a time. As the Vism quote showed (which Nina and Larry are > discussing), when there is seeing, there cannot be hearing. When there is > seeing, that's all there is -- no body consciousness experiences, no > defilements arising, just hearing which hears sound. If it seems there is > more than one experience at a time or more than one object can be known at > a time or that concepts can be known by awareness (satipatthana), it's > thinking. This is not in accordance with any of the suttas or the > Abhidhamma. Right, but each object of consciousness comes to the fore in such a small moment of time that you can practise them virtually concurrently . My practise guide likens the sense-door processes to a movie film, where 29 frames per second pass by so quickly that they look like a single stream. So it can be with the foundations of mindfulness, no? > > Later you asked the meaning of javana cittas. Simply put, the defilements > or wholesome qualities never arise at moments of seeing or body > consciousness experiencing or with certain other cittas arising such as > those arising when we're in a deep sleep (bhavanga cittas). They only > arise with the javana cittas in a sense door or mind door process. I don't > wish to get too technical (you can find the details under `processes' in > U.P.) My intention in mentioning these cittas was just to show that it's > impossible for anyone --even an arahant -- to have continual awareness > with every citta. Oh Well I get the first part, but I don't see how it means that no one can have continual awareness of every cita. Why can't they. > Concentration > ========== > A:> This is merely what is stated is necessary in the commentaries. > > Access concentration is the level of concentration wherein the > > hindrances are suppressed. It can be gotten by breath meditation > > after a certain time, or by some other meditations, including the > > meditations on the elements, which seems harder. > .... > S: Only if there is sufficient wisdom (at level of samatha) developed on > account of understanding how the object brings wholesome calm. Not just by > selecting an object and concentrating on it. > Yah, the breath nimitta I have experienced is access concentration. If I'm correct wisdom springs from concentration. That's the threefold training with morality at the start, right? > For the development of satipatthana, the object has to be a paramattha > dhamma (nama or rupa) and nowhere is it said that access concentration has > to be developed first for this. It has to be very natural....no big deal > or special experience at all. I think I was, or am now anyway, referring to momentary concentration, perhaps on a similar level as access, which is the level of concentration needed to observe everything as it changes moment-to-moment in one's experience. This is indeed stated in the Vism. > .... > Immersion in the four foundations > ========================= > A: >You know how in the > > commentaries and scripture it's described such and such a person might > > ask another which of the foundations of mindfulness they established > > themselves in, and they would say from time to time we practise the > > four foundations of mindfulness? That's how I do, but at this current > > time I am not practising. > ... > S: Like at the well or whilst washing or anytime without any selection. In > other words, by giving up the idea of someone practising or being able to > develop satipatthana at will or by having expectations. Not what I mean but if that's what you want, giving up the idea of a person practising, it can be accomplished while walking a path practising satipatthana too. There's no reason it can't be practised alone outside of the laundry and meals, Sarah. I am still open to practising while carrying out other tasks in the meantime but ultimately I want to walk my own path. > Being Quiet > ========= > A: > But being quiet is an attempt to avoid idle chatter and speaking bad > > words which ALWAYS seem to defile me with evil. > .... > S: I appreciate it that you see the harm of `evil' states. However, I > think it's the wrong way round if we try to avoid situations This is simply abstaining from a gross verbal action, that's all it is. In the case of smoking cigarettes and eating food with patients at the hospital, it is avoiding a situation and I see nothing wrong with that. In the Mahamangala Sutta when a deity asked the Buddha what is the highest protection the first line of his response was 'not consorting with fools'. > because we > know there will be some unwholesome states arising. For example, when I > teach difficult teenage boys, I know there is bound to be impatience and > annoyance arising during class, but when we appreciate these are merely > conditioned dhammas, they can be known as such without any clinging to > being the `pure person' or minding at all. > So appreciation can be, but purity remains. > When I lived those months in the forest in Sri Lanka following my > meditation practise, there was never any wrong speech because I never > spoke, except occasionally to the bhikkhu in charge. As you can see, I'm a > pretty sociable person and this was very unnatural for me;-).Any kind of > suppression or austerity does not take us any closer to the developed > wisdom which will eventually eradicate these defilements. They have to be > known for what they are when they arise and are apparent. A child or an > animal may not have conditions for wrong views to arise for example, but > that doesn't mean there is any knowledge or wisdom at all. In other words, > wisdom can be measured by the amount of apparent defilements arising in a > day. Can you explain where you are going with this. > > Every morning when I do some yoga, have a swim or a walk, I know there > will be plenty of attachment arising. However, I don't see that there's > any need to have any fear about this common attachment which doesn't hurt > anyone. > > The development of understanding is most important because it can > understand such attachment or anger or any other dhamma as anatta. And concentration precedes understanding. > ***** > S: I think we have more to run on this thread and also the one about only > knowing one dhamma at a time - one world at a time. I may have to start > quoting some Abhidhamma, if this doesn't suffice;-) > **** > SN35:68 (6) Samiddhi (4), Bodhi translation: > > "Venerable sir, it is said, `the world, the world.' In what way, venerable > sir, might there be the world or the description of the world?"* > > "Where there is the eye, Samiddhi, where there are forms, > eye-consciousness, things to be cognized by eye-consciousness, there the > world exists or the description of the world. > > "Where there is the ear....the mind, where there are mental phenomena, > mind-consciousness, things to be cognized by mind-consciousnes, there the > world exists or the description of the world. > > "Where there is no eye, Samiddhi, no forms, no eye-consciousness, no > things to be cognized by eye-consciousness, there the world does not exist > nor any description of the world. > > "Where there is no ear..no mind, no mental phenomena, no > mind-consciousness, no things to be cognized by mind-consciousness, there > the world does not exist nor any description of the world." > ***** > Enjoying your discussions with Phil and others too. Sarah I have this feeling that we've departed from the original point of the post. I can't pin it down though. Oh well. Thinking about hoping to live longer than a short time, Andrew 35974 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Sep 3, 2004 6:25am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Bagels, Forest & Happy Walks typo correction: --- sarah abbott wrote: > In other > words, > wisdom can be measured by the amount of apparent defilements arising in > a > day. .... This should have read 'can't be measured'..... Apologies, Sarah p.s AL, I see you've replied (but not yet read). Thx.....there will probably be a few days before I get back further. Have a good weekend! ============================== 35975 From: htootintnaing Date: Fri Sep 3, 2004 7:07am Subject: Re: Dhamma Thread ( 053 ) Dear Connie, When I was writing on this post, I remembered you a lot. As I am no more a member of DSList, there is no way to discuss anything regarding DSList. But as you signed at the bottom, I think you have responsibility for your writing. I would suggest to edit them. Contentwise there are few to talk about. Here I repeatedly mentioned 'uggaha nimitta'. One of your DSList file contains inconsistent spelling. Such as 'ugaha' at one place, ugghaha, at another place and so on. Contentwise there are words like kamavacara jhanas. I think she may mean for rupavacara jhana. This is for your attention. If welcome, I am ready to join again. With Metta, Htoo Naing PS: I do not like samphappalapa thing while discussing dhamma. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" wrote: > Dear Dhamma Friends, >There are 89 cittas in total in terms of characteristics. If cittas are not understood, dhamma study will be a bit difficult. > There are kusalas. They may be dana kusala or offerings. They may be sila kusala or observing moral conducts. They may be bhavana kusala or mental cultivation of good will. >If jhana are rupa jhana they are called > rupavacara rupakusala cittas and if arupa then arupavacara > arupakusala cittas. > Regarding the character of the object of samatha, the initial object which may be visual object or tactile object or mind object is called parikamma nimitta. When the power of practitioner arises, this nimitta or image becomes uggaha nimitta or 'mental image' of the initial image or object. Samadhi from initiation till the arising of > uggaha nimitta or mental image is called parikamma samadhi. > > This uggaha nimitta or 'mental image' later in the practice becomes > another image which is much much more beautiful and free of any > impurity. This image is called counter image or patibhaga nimitta. > May you all be free from suffering. > > With Unlimited Metta, > > Htoo Naing 35976 From: Date: Fri Sep 3, 2004 3:22am Subject: Re: [dsg]details of the Tiika Hi, Sarah - In a message dated 9/3/04 1:45:18 AM Eastern Daylight Time, sarahprocterabbott@y... writes: > [Actually, I’d particularly like to hear Howard’s comments on the passages > recently quoted on seeing consciousness and visible object which seem at > some variance with a couple of his recent comments to me and Agrios. > (Perhaps I should put it the other way round and say his comments seem at > variance with what we read in the Vism, so if this is so, do we really > think we know better or understand ‘the experiencing’ and ‘experienced’ > better?).] > =========================== I don't know which passages you are referring to Sarah. I'll just make the foolowing comments on this matter at the moment: First of all, speaking generally, I believe that somewhere the Buddha said something to the effect: "Put no one else's head above your own." Speaking more specifically, my own direct observation is increasingly that experience, though usually seeming otherwise, is nondual, that subject-object duality is illusory, that there is no knowing subject nor known object, but merely experience consisting of the presence of experiential content. While I don't accept this as unquestionable fact, and I hold open the possibility that this is observational error on my part, still at present this is how I see matters. I see the vi~n~nana-namarupa mutual dependency to be the interdependence of subjectivity and objectivity, an outgrowth of ignorance-conditioned fabrication, and as the crucial mental split, a "vortex" as Bhikkhu ~Nanananda calls it, that spews forth all our woes, and, as the Buddha points out in his Sheaves of Reeds Sutta, should either aspect of this diabolical pair fall, then they both fall, and freedom and enlightenment ensue. As the Buddha said: "If one were to pull away one of those sheaves of reeds, the other would fall; if one were to pull away the other, the first one would fall. In the same way, from the cessation of name-&-form comes the cessation of consciousness, from the cessation of consciousness comes the cessation of name-&-form. From the cessation of name-&-form comes the cessation of the six sense media. From the cessation of the six sense media comes the cessation of contact. From the cessation of contact comes the cessation of feeling. From the cessation of feeling comes the cessation of craving. From the cessation of craving comes the cessation of clinging/sustenance. From the cessation of clinging/sustenance comes the cessation of becoming. From the cessation of becoming comes the cessation of birth. From the cessation of birth, then aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair all cease. Such is the cessation of this entire mass of suffering & stress." With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 35977 From: htootintnaing Date: Fri Sep 3, 2004 7:26am Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 054 ) Dear Dhamma Friends, We have discussed about the 55th citta or 89 cittas. It is the 1st jhana citta. In vithi vara of arising of the 1st jhana in its greeting, there always is a single 1st jhana citta after which there follow numerous bhavanga citta. After that, the practitioner contemplates on his jhana and its contents. Attaining the 1st jhana for the first time does not mean he is expert in 1st jhana. For proficiency, he has to develop a number of ways to polish up his 1st jhana. At a time, he becomes proficient in his 1st jhana. This means that he can access to 1st jhana at any time if he wish. He can stay in 1st jhana as long as he wish. He can instantaneously emerge from 1st jhana at his will. He can scrutinize his 1st jhana in detail. He can contemplate on his jhana at any time. The scrutinization makes him that vitakka the jhana factor is a weak member. He may be bribed by kama object as vitakka is a strong seacher of object, he may be misled by kama object. So his 1st jhana is quite close to jhana enemy kamacchandanivarana and if this arise he may be drawn back to kama domain. With repeated scrutinization, he becomes to realize that vitakka should be dropped out from jhana members. As he does not have any more wish on vitakka and as he is ardently and diligently striving, other jhana factors vicara, piti, sukha, and ekaggata are working in their full capacities. At a time, there arise the 2nd jhana. This jhana citta is called 'vicara, piti, sukhekaggata sahitam dutiyajjhana rupavacara rupakusala citta'. As in the 1st jhana, the 2nd also arises once if it is the first time. In next time, 2nd jhana can arise without interposition of any bhavanga cittas. This 2nd jhana citta is 56th citta of 89 cittas. If this arises in arahats, it is 66th citta that is 'vicara, piti, sukhekaggata sahitam dutiyajjhana rupavacara rupakiriya citta'. When a person who attain this 2nd jhana ( rupakusala citta ), he will be reborn with 61st citta that is rupavacara rupavipaka citta of 2nd jhana. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome and they will be valuable. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts. 35978 From: htootintnaing Date: Fri Sep 3, 2004 7:46am Subject: Jhana Journey ( 11 ) Dear Dhamma Friends, When the jhana practitioner looks into his mind, he will find himself there are no nivarana ( hindrances ) and he will aslo find the working mental factors there very clearly if he practises well enough. Vitakka ( initial application ), vicara ( sustained application ) and piti ( satisfaction/ joy ) are evidently working their own functions. When he thoroughly examines his mind, he will discover there is a complete peace as he is experiencing good things. This peace is known as sukha. Along with all these mental factors ( cetasikas ) there also is a chief mental factor without which jhana cittas will never arise. It is called ekaggata ( one-pointedness ). This factor is the main in jhana. Citta is fixed at the patibhaga nimitta( counter-image ). It stays only at patibhaga nimitta. WHITE WHITE WHITE WHITE....~ all these ekaggata from moment to moment are seemingly still. As the whole mind is calm and well concentrates on WHITE patibhaga nimitta as it also is extremely clean and clear as if it is a mirror without any scratches and without any uneveness. The jhana practitioner must frequently review on his mind what they are doing what are happening there and what exactly are arising. The object is the counter-image ( patibaga nimitta ).It is patibaga nimitta ( arammana ). The citta which looks at uggaha nimitta is said to be in parikamma bhavana ( meditation ) and the citta which looks at patibhaga nimitta is called upacara bhavana. In upacara ( crown-prince ) bhavana which is proximate cultivation or neighbourhood cultivation, there must not be any nivarana dhamma (hindrances). From then on, the practitioner makes a diligent effort on practising his concentration. He starts to notice vitakka, vicara, piti, sukha and ekaggata. If all these things are evidently working, then the practitioner is said to be in a state of appana bhavana that is the first jhana called pathama jhana. Only now the jhana journey has been started and the practitioner is riding in a WHITE kasina vehicle. This stage must not be regressed if he wants jhana and their effect. As soon as appama samadhi arises, all mental faculties are suck into patibhaga nimitta and they merge into singleness. Appana means close look. The citta looks the patibhaga closely. It is so close that there is no space between them and they seem to merge each other. At that particular time of appana jhana citta, all sense doors are completely closed and the only door open is mind door which allows only jhana object that is patibhaga nimitta. So, when in appana samadhi, there is complete stillness, complete silence, complete darkness with only light of patibhaga. May you all achieve appana bhavana soon. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: There is no reason not to attain 1st jhana if conditions are fulfilled. 35979 From: jwromeijn Date: Fri Sep 3, 2004 9:23am Subject: Re: Vipassana-meditation, jhana's and the not-sensual citta's --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" wrote: > Dear Joop, > > Please mention your nr 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10 in serial as you will say. > > Htoo Naing > The Ten Fetters (Samyojana): 1. Sakkaya-ditthi is translated as "personality belief". This is the belief that we are solid beings, which leads to the illusion of a separate self, egoism, or individuality. This is a major obstacle to spiritual progress. Not only are we attached to the idea of self, we even glorify it. Conceit, arrogance, pride, self-abasement. Attachment to idea of "I" is fundamental to all problems; we defend the idea of I, we seek to cherish I, make a fuss of it. It is difficult to be entirely free from idea of self (Anatta), but at least do not take the five aggregates as self. 2. Vicikiccha means "skeptical doubt." In particular, doubt about (a) the Buddha, (b) the Dhamma, (c) the Sangha, (d) the disciplinary rules, (e) the past (for example, "What have I been in the past?"), (f) the future (for example, "What shall I be in the future?"), (g) both the past and the future (for example, "From what state to what state shall I change in the future?", "What am I?", "How am I?", etc.), (h) the doctrine of dependent origination. The Buddha said that this kind of doubt is like being lost in a desert without a map. 3. Silabbataparamasa means "adherence to wrongful rites, rituals and ceremonies"...in the mistaken belief that purification can be achieved simply by their performance. Examples are the extreme ascetic practices condemned by the Buddha. Also at that time, the Brahmins had developed very complicated rituals which only they could carry out and which meant that the rest of the population had to ask the Brahmins for perform all the religious ceremonies on their behalf. "Oneself is one's own master. Who else can be the master?" (Dhp. v. 160). 4. Kama-raga means "sensual desire." This is one of the roots of Tanha which is at the heart of all our problems with Dukkha. After we experience Dukkha we latch onto something. But what we latch on to has nothing to do with the Dukkha. What comes up is called in Sanskrit Samudaya. Desire, as Tanha, is considered one of the "Daughters of Mara," one of three tempters sent by Mara, The Personification of Evil, to entice the future Buddha into abandoning his quest for Enlightenemnt. Also considered one of The Three Poisons 5. Patigha The literal meaning of this term is "to hit against", but it is often translated into English as "ill-will or hatred". This is the cause of conflict both on an individual basis, and between nations as well. As Arati, aversion, another of the "Three Daughters of Mara." Hatred is one of The Three Poisons as well. 6. Rupa-raga is "attachment to the form realms." That is, still binding ourselves to Samsara. As lust, Raga is also considered one of the "Three Daughters of Mara." 7. Arupa-raga is "attachment to the formless realms." 8. Mana literally this means "measuring" and is often translated as "conceit, arrogance, self-assertion or pride", but measuring is a better term because it means all forms of evaluation. Feeling oneself to be superior to others (the superiority complex) is indeed a form a conceit. But mana also includes measuring in the sense of judging oneself to be inferior to others (the inferiority complex) and also equal to others. Even in spiritual matters, e.g. how many do you observe precepts? how long do you sit for meditation? Certainly we are all different, but it is not helpful to engage in comparisons between oneself and others. 9. Uddhacca means "restlessness." It is the confused, distracted, restless state of mind, in which there is no tranquillity or peace. It has been defined as, "the excitement of mind which is disturbance, agitation of the heart, turmoil of mind." (Dhammasangani 429). It is the opposite of one-pointedness. 10. Avijja is translated as "ignorance", but this is ignorance in a special sense. It does not mean ignorance as it is used in the everyday sense, but it means specifically ignorance of the Four Noble Truths and the delusion which prevents us from seeing the real nature of impermanence and Dukkha. Last of of The Three Poisons. Metta Joop PS Numbers like "10" or "31" or "54" are of course concepts, not paramattha 35980 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Sep 3, 2004 11:31am Subject: Re: [dsg]details of the Tiika Dear Sarah, thank you for your encouraging words and suggestions. Also Larry's sound advice is of great help. His suggestions take a burden of me. When we just hear one part of a discussion with A. Sujin, it may seem to newcomers (and perhaps Phil) that she does not think much of book study, of Pali and details. But see her book Survey of Paramattha Dhammas (did you meet Pinna?), lots of details, and be at the Foundation with the Thai sessions. Remember the special Pali session on Sunday: again lots of details with Pali. Kh Anop, one of the teachers there and his sister study details all the time, and Pali, but Kh. S. will always add something to place the subject in daily life now. This she did at your session, but misunderstandings can arise when people only hear one discussion. I did not say that the Tiika stated that measuring visible object was right, on the contrary, this was refuted. Then, when I started thinking, a doubt arose to me personally. That was all. Kh. S. merely wanted to warn: do not forget the purpose, do not get lost in what you do not understand. The Latent Tendencies I am trying to translate also have many details, and Lodewijk cannot get through them, I may stop with this. And think of the details in the Bulletin of the Foundation, about the rebirths of the sotapanna, etc. . S: I know there are others who also find all your Vism and Tika > extracts/posts very helpful, even if they seldom comment. Htoo recently > mentioned this for one. No need to feel discouraged at all. Otherwise it’s > just more dosa to be known now, not ‘mine’ or ‘yours’ at all. As K.Sujin > would say, understanding these conditioned dhammas (such as the > discouragement) is the present pariyatti:-). N: Yes, I felt very discouraged after reading your Bgk report, but I also know this is defilement. I just heard on tape that Kh Sujin said again that it is not enough to learn only the terms, then we go through our whole life only knowing the names of realities. S: This is why the hearing and understanding about seeing and visible object > or other dhammas appearing now is the most precious teaching, however > tough the medicine may be at times for us all. N: I am thinking now of Lodewijk. It is important in which way we bring this to different people. I think we have to try to find different ways of expressing the Truth. Or to be very careful in which way we express this to such or such individual. When I every day read aloud to Lodewijk Preserving the Teachings, he likes all reminders of seeing etc. He says, it depends on the context something is brought. Kh. Sujin and Kh Duang may not know that I wrote Preserving the Teachings. I understood that not many in Bgk have access to Zolag, and that they have not seen all the other reports I wrote about India, etc. Kh. Duang did not know about my transl. of Metta she told me. Thus, I printed things out and we sent big packs in the old fashioned way by post recently. Thank you for your kind words, Nina. 35981 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Sep 3, 2004 11:31am Subject: Re: [dsg] Correction of v iews - supports the other good deeds Hello Phil, op 03-09-2004 00:18 schreef plnao op plnao@j...: > There are reasons I believe > reflecting on foulness does not work for me, at least not yet. So I can > understand how correction of views practiced by seeing the disadvantage of > what is unwholesome will help with another one of the deeds of merit ? > avoidance of akusala. N: We cannot choose what will work at a particular moment. All kinds of kusala are helpful for avoidance of akusala. but eradication can only be done by lokuttara pañña after insight has been developed stage by stage. The garden: we have to get to the roots of akusala, the weeds, they can only be pulled out by vipassana. As to control, you wrote: Controlling faculties or indriyas, there are several, they have to be developed.Pañña is a very important one. There are also confidence, energy (right effort), mindfulness and concentration. About control, it is all a question of balance, not taking things out of the context. I realize that matters can easily be misinterpreted, too much to one side, too much to the other side. Howard insisted to me: only listening, is that all? And also that I take as a good reminder, appreciating it. Nina. 35982 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Sep 3, 2004 11:31am Subject: Re: [dsg] child, villager, money changer. Hi Larry. op 03-09-2004 02:18 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > One point I would like to clarify is when does perception come into play > as a simile (this is like that). N: I find this simile: saññaa, citta, pañña always difficult. I like to start with the end: Larry: Technicall speaking, even 5-door consciousness doesn't see reality "as it is", but > I don't think we should say that 5-door consciousness conceptualizes the > object. This is sort of an indeterminate area with regard to the concept > and reality distinction. N: The cittas arising in the 5-door processes experience rupas, sense objects. But the javanacittas that are not accompanied by pañña do not know that the objects are rupas, thus, paramattha dhammas. Seeing sees visible object but it does not know: this is visible object, a paramattha dhamma. Sañña marks the object each moment so that it can be recognized and remembered. L: Of course perception (sanna) arises with every consciousness but I > suspect the consciousness that is being talked about here is kusala or > akusala in javana. N: In this simile, yes, and unaccompanied by pañña, in order to show its difference with pañña. L: We could possibly say that the recognizing aspect of > perception is paramount in determining consciousness (votthapana citta) > but this is so brief I think it more likely that a kusala or akusala > consciousness dominated by perception would be the case. N: I am not so inclined to assign a special part to sañña in votthapana citta or even a dominating part in kusala citta or akusala citta. I am always thinking of the many other cetasikas which each have a task. But in this simile sañña is explained and it does not arise alone, always with a citta. L: When we get to > perception in the Visuddhimagga it gives the example of a young deer > (emphasis on the "young") who sees a scare-crow and identifies it as a > man. This is a good example of the simile and naivete. N: Yes, like the child who sees the coin but does not know about the value. Another example: someone imitates dog's barking but citta knows that this is not a real dog's barking. Citta remembers because of sañña, many associations with past experiences. L: We could apply > this to a single consciousness process, several moments in our day, or a > stage of life that may last for many years, or even many life-times. N: The above example about sañña could be applied here, right? But many life-times: then you would have to remember past lives, right? L: The same could apply to conceptually labelling experience as impermanent, > unsatisfactory, not self. N: This would be the case if you think *about* these characteristics. This is due to having heard the teachings, and remembered them, but not only to sañña, also to intellectual understanding. What you understand you can remember. L: The distinguishing characteristic of panna is not only that it > experiences impermanence, unsatisfactoriness, and not self, but also > that it discerns the distinguishing characteristic (sabhava) of the > object. N: The last one is the beginning, before there can be the penetration of the characteristics of impermanence, unsatisfactoriness, and not self. First: the hardness now is rupa, different from body-consciousness or feeling that experiences hardness. How can otherwise their arising and falling away be directly known? The Pali term visesa lakkhana, distinguishing characteristics, is used. L: A good starting point here is distinguishing between concept and > reality, or, in more practical terms, simply identifying concept as mere > concept. N: Very difficult. We should first know what a reality, dhamma is, dhamma now, as A. Sujin repeats, before we can be sure what is dhamma, what is a concept. Thus: what are citta, cetasika, rupa, (not yet nibbana) and then we know that all the rest are concepts. First dhammas should be known not only in theory, but when they appear, one at a time. > L: Can we say that all akusala consciousness and all kusala consciousness > without panna conceptualizes the object even if the object is a reality? > Otherwise we would have to say one of these consciousnesses sees reality > as it is, but this is the exclusive domain of panna. N: As I said in the beginning, in connections with the sense-door processes, I think that when the citta is without pañña, even when its object is a rupa, it is not known that the object is a reality. We can also think about nama, but then the true characteristic of nama is not known. No pañña. We merely have an idea, a concept of nama. Nina. 35983 From: Date: Fri Sep 3, 2004 7:35am Subject: Re: [dsg]details of the Tiika Hi, Sarah - In a message dated 9/3/04 10:23:22 AM Eastern Daylight Time, upasaka@a... writes: > I don't know which passages you are referring to Sarah. I'll just make > the foolowing comments ... ============================== I was just wondering whether my typo "foolowing" made you think of "walLOWING in FOOLishness"! ;-)) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 35984 From: plnao Date: Fri Sep 3, 2004 3:36pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Correction of v iews - supports the other good deeds Hello Nina, and all Our computer has not been disabled yet. I shall post while there's an opportunity. There is no way of knowing if there will be the opportunity to discuss Dhamma in the next lifetime, or a computer to do it on tomorrow! Ph:> reflecting on foulness does not work for me, at least not yet. Ph: Thinking more about this yesterday. I will want to discuss it more when I get back to you on the "removal of distracting thoughts" thread. So I can > understand how correction of views practiced by seeing the disadvantage of > what is unwholesome will help with another one of the deeds of merit ? > avoidance of akusala. >N: We cannot choose what will work at a particular moment. All kinds of >kusala are helpful for avoidance of akusala. Ph: The Buddha taught so many different kinds of people with different accumulations, but we are changing day by day and a different remedy will be helpful day by day. I think this is very encouraging and it fills my heart with gratidute to the Buddha this morning, as every morning. (Helped by caffeine, I must admit.) N:>but eradication can only be >done by lokuttara pañña after insight has been developed stage by stage. Ph: In Rob M's book which I highly recommend there is a very helpful chart that shows the stages at which askusala is eradicated. In some cases it is weakened before being eradicated. I think this is the case for the dosa of anger and hostility, if I remember carefully. So there is weakening of the roots before eradication. But in other cases there is no weakening before eradication. This is the case with moha (ignorance) for example. N:>The garden: we have to get to the roots of akusala, the weeds, they can only >be pulled out by vipassana. Ph: Finally pulled out by vipassana. Weakened by cultivation of deeds of merit? If those deeds are done with right understanding that knows it is not self doing the deeds. That is not so easy, I sense. I remain suspicious that a self that is wanting life to be pleasant and deeply understood is behind my Dhamma study. That suspicion is not paralizying. But it is there. It is the doubt that will only be removed at Sotapanna maybe? >N:As to control, you wrote: finding that control *is*there but it is not something we can grasp and >wield like a power tool.> Ph: I reflected a lot on that Crossing the Flood Sutta yesterday. It is 1:1 in the Samyutta Nikaya, just as the wonderful verse about mind leading all things is 1:1 in the Dhammapada. I wonder if that 1:1 means that the Buddha also considered them very important, or it was the council that put the Canons together. IN any case they are both so important and I would like to reflect on them both every morning. I don't have time this morning to respond to AL's long and interesting post this morning but I thought of him to yesterday and hoped that he saw the Crossing the Flood sutta.I thought of him him because I had said that I thought he was pushing too hard. Hi AL! I'll get back to you in a couple of days. N>Controlling faculties or indriyas, there are several, they have to be >developed.Pañña is a very important one. There are also confidence, energy >(right effort), mindfulness and concentration. About control, it is all a >question of balance, not taking things out of the context. I realize that >matters can easily be misinterpreted, too much to one side, too much to the >other side. Ph: Confidence balanced with wisdom. Energy balanced wtuh concentration. Mindfulness working through them all. Another one of the Buddha's helpful formulas that make things so clear in theory and are so provable in practice. This summer, my father spoke with great enthusiasm about Einstein's formulas, about the way the universe is held together and functions by subtle balances. I wish I had had enough confidence in the Buddha to try to share the Buddha's wonderful formulas with my father. Well, it's not too late. I'll read the book on Einstein that he recommended and use it as a launch for discussing Dhamma? We'll see. BTW Nina, I saw your mention of not forming an opinion of K Sujin based on the descroption of one talk, and her opinion about words. I had thought yesterday when I said "she sounds tough and invigorating" that was about how she sounded in that one talk on one day. Of course we are all different day by day. Metta, Phil 35985 From: plnao Date: Fri Sep 3, 2004 3:58pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhamma Thread ( 054 ) Hello Htoo Although I'm not seeking jhanas yet, I am finding your description of the jhana factors very interesting. This sentence doesn't quite make sense. I think there is a missing word due to a typo. I guess the missing word is "see" or "realize" >The scrutinization makes him that vitakka the jhana factor is a weak >member. Metta, Phil ----- Original Message ----- From: "htootintnaing" To: Sent: Friday, September 03, 2004 11:26 PM Subject: [dsg] Dhamma Thread ( 054 ) > > Dear Dhamma Friends, > > We have discussed about the 55th citta or 89 cittas. It is the 1st > jhana citta. In vithi vara of arising of the 1st jhana in its > greeting, there always is a single 1st jhana citta after which there > follow numerous bhavanga citta. > > After that, the practitioner contemplates on his jhana and its > contents. Attaining the 1st jhana for the first time does not mean he > is expert in 1st jhana. For proficiency, he has to develop a number > of ways to polish up his 1st jhana. > > At a time, he becomes proficient in his 1st jhana. This means that he > can access to 1st jhana at any time if he wish. He can stay in 1st > jhana as long as he wish. He can instantaneously emerge from 1st > jhana at his will. He can scrutinize his 1st jhana in detail. He can > contemplate on his jhana at any time. > > The scrutinization makes him that vitakka the jhana factor is a weak > member. He may be bribed by kama object as vitakka is a strong > seacher of object, he may be misled by kama object. So his 1st jhana > is quite close to jhana enemy kamacchandanivarana and if this arise > he may be drawn back to kama domain. > > With repeated scrutinization, he becomes to realize that vitakka > should be dropped out from jhana members. As he does not have any > more wish on vitakka and as he is ardently and diligently striving, > other jhana factors vicara, piti, sukha, and ekaggata are working in > their full capacities. > > At a time, there arise the 2nd jhana. This jhana citta is called > > 'vicara, piti, sukhekaggata sahitam dutiyajjhana rupavacara > rupakusala citta'. As in the 1st jhana, the 2nd also arises once if > it is the first time. In next time, 2nd jhana can arise without > interposition of any bhavanga cittas. This 2nd jhana citta is 56th > citta of 89 cittas. > > If this arises in arahats, it is 66th citta that is 'vicara, piti, > sukhekaggata sahitam dutiyajjhana rupavacara rupakiriya citta'. When > a person who attain this 2nd jhana ( rupakusala citta ), he will be > reborn with 61st citta that is rupavacara rupavipaka citta of 2nd > jhana. > > May you all be free from suffering. > > With Unlimited Metta, > > Htoo Naing > > PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome and they > will be valuable. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just > give a reply to any of these posts. > 35986 From: Date: Fri Sep 3, 2004 4:26pm Subject: Re: [dsg]details of the Tiika, Larry, Htoo. Hi Nina, N: "Posting all of the basic text: we need a working program now. what do you suggest, looking ahead now to the next sections???" L: I would rather that you decide. There are too many factors that I am not aware of. We can vary our presentation quite a bit. For example, I can post a paragraph and you can give a short clarification, then we can move on; or you can go into background info or bring in some tika; or I can post several short paragraphs at one time; or I could post a series of longer paragraphs over several days and you could sort out the main points and either bring in some tika or not. If you have a lot to say on any one part you could post that over several days. For now I will post only one paragraph unless you direct me otherwise. Larry 35987 From: Date: Fri Sep 3, 2004 4:37pm Subject: Re: [dsg] child, villager, money changer. Hi Nina, One of the main points I get out of this analysis of understanding is that conceptually understanding impermanence, unsatisfactoriness, and not self is profitable, that is to say kusala, and furthers one on the mundane path. Furthermore, any characterization of experience that doesn't include these three general characteristics is merely perception. Larry 35988 From: connieparker Date: Fri Sep 3, 2004 6:09pm Subject: Re: Dhamma Thread ( 053 ) Dear Htoo, I'm sure there are a still a lot of typos/mispellings in all the files I edited for DSL, especially the earlier ones. You're right - I should go back through them and it's on my list of things to do. I've added uggaha as another word to watch for. It is something I need to do more of. My Pali is still not very good and contentwise, I am not so good at catching things. Also, I imagine the 25/28 thing was my mistake to begin with. If you want to write me off-list, you're more than welcome to, but as far as who joins DSList, I am just another member. You would have to take that up with the moderator. I'm sorry there are communication problems and wish I knew some way to to help that. As you say, this is not the place. thanks again, connie p.s. I finally found the translation for the rebirth thing in the B.Bodhi edition of CMA. 35989 From: gazita2002 Date: Fri Sep 3, 2004 7:16pm Subject: Re: child, villager, money changer. Dear Nina and Larry, these points are so helpful, and I have a question. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > Hi Larry. > op 03-09-2004 02:18 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > > One point I would like to clarify is when does perception come into play > > as a simile (this is like that). > N: I find this simile: saññaa, citta, pañña always difficult. I like to > start with the end: ....snip.... > N: The cittas arising in the 5-door processes experience rupas, sense > objects. But the javanacittas that are not accompanied by pañña do not know > that the objects are rupas, thus, paramattha dhammas. Seeing sees visible > object but it does not know: this is visible object, a paramattha dhamma. > Sañña marks the object each moment so that it can be recognized and > remembered. > This is clear to me, theoretically speaking - but I then wonder why or how the thinking of so many concepts comes about. When the object of thinking is concepts, are all these concepts the manifestation of sanna? I understand that its not that simple, that there are other cittas and cetasikas involved in 'thinking' as I currently know it, but it seems sanna plays a big part. Is it the reason why sanna is a khandha on its own? Sometimes 'I' want 'my sanna' to stop. There are things I don't want to remember, and others I want , but its often the ones I don't want that arise (sigh). .....snip..... > L: We could apply > > this to a single consciousness process, several moments in our day, or a > > stage of life that may last for many years, or even many life- times. > N: The above example about sañña could be applied here, right? But many > life-times: then you would have to remember past lives, right? > L: The same could apply to conceptually labelling experience as impermanent, > > unsatisfactory, not self. > N: This would be the case if you think *about* these characteristics. This > is due to having heard the teachings, and remembered them, but not only to > sañña, also to intellectual understanding. What you understand you can > remember. > L: The distinguishing characteristic of panna is not only that it > > experiences impermanence, unsatisfactoriness, and not self, but also > > that it discerns the distinguishing characteristic (sabhava) of the > > object. > N: The last one is the beginning, before there can be the penetration of the > characteristics of impermanence, unsatisfactoriness, and not self. First: > the hardness now is rupa, different from body-consciousness or feeling that > experiences hardness. How can otherwise their arising and falling away be > directly known? The Pali term visesa lakkhana, distinguishing > characteristics, is used. > > L: A good starting point here is distinguishing between concept and > > reality, or, in more practical terms, simply identifying concept as mere > > concept. > N: Very difficult. We should first know what a reality, dhamma is, dhamma > now, as A. Sujin repeats, before we can be sure what is dhamma, what is a > concept. Thus: what are citta, cetasika, rupa, (not yet nibbana) and then we > know that all the rest are concepts. First dhammas should be known not only > in theory, but when they appear, one at a time. Does the knowing of a nama or rupa precede the distinguishing of kusala from akusala? For example, does panna know a nama from a rupa before it knows kusala and akusala? Or once again, am I making it to simple? > L: Can we say that all akusala consciousness and all kusala consciousness > > without panna conceptualizes the object even if the object is a reality? > > Otherwise we would have to say one of these consciousnesses sees reality > > as it is, but this is the exclusive domain of panna. > N: As I said in the beginning, in connections with the sense-door processes, > I think that when the citta is without pañña, even when its object is a > rupa, it is not known that the object is a reality. We can also think about > nama, but then the true characteristic of nama is not known. No pañña. We > merely have an idea, a concept of nama. > Nina. Patience, courage and good cheer Azita 35990 From: rjkjp1 Date: Sat Sep 4, 2004 1:38am Subject: [dsg] Re: Bagels, Forest & Happy Walks ------ In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Andrew Levin" <> Andrew:Well you can't really doubt the insight knowledges, they are described > in the Vism. if I'm not mistaken and so it's just a matter of > ascertaining whether or not you're really being taken through them. I > still have confidence in the methods explored in this book so it would > be good if you could share your experiences, where you went wrong, and > how it's related to wrong view. >________________ Dear Andrew, I first read the Visuddhimagga around 1984 or 5 and actually I did think it was like some sort of meditation manual with stages of insight that were nicely defined. It was great to have this confirmd by a couple of teachers. Later I found out how much I had misunderstood. But really it was much better to find out the truth and see just how difficult and deep it is. Then I could start to investigate what is actually happening now rather than pretending to have some special stages. Everytime I take up the study of the Visuddhimagga it seems more profound than the last time, the path out of samsara not something to be underestimated at all. Patience grows with determination, one can really face anything and let wisdom grow. When we consider Dhamma at the level of pondering, the thoughts are to some extent rooted in amoha, wisdom, alobha, detachment and adosa, non aversion. (Ideally that is - we can of course be thinking about Dhamma with underlying delusion or attachment.) Right Understanding at the level of thinking is a crucial factor before deeper levels can arise. And too, as the direct understanding develops this supports more understanding at the thinking level. It is an upward spiral - wise thinking, direct understanding, wise thinking, direct understanding, wisethinking.... A very gradual upward spiral, cira kala bhavana (long, long time development). Even after vipassana nanas are reached (the real ones, not the imitation ) wise thinking and study is needed to further assist wisdom to grow. The visuddhimagga XVIII24 says "after defining mentality -materialty thus according to its true nature (i.e. after the first vipassana nana), then in order to abandon this wordly designation of 'a being' and 'a person' more thoroghly, to surmount confusion about beings and to establish his mind on the plane of non-confusion he makes sure that the meaning defined, namely 'this is mere mentality-materiality,there is no being, no person' . He considers the suttas in this way. I think calm grows deep in accordance with how much anatta is understood. For some reason I sometimes see people disdaining theory about anatta - but theory is the first step. And that first step has to be a broad, solid base otherwise the practice will go wrong in some way. RobertK 35991 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Sep 4, 2004 2:14am Subject: Re: [dsg]details of the Tiika Hi, Nina Just to say that I find the detail from the Tika invaluable, and I very much appreciate the time and effort you put into it, and the understanding you bring to bear on these difficult areas. Of course, much of the material is far in advance of my direct experience, but it is nevertheless useful to reflect upon. I hear many of the same areas covered on the MP3 recordings that I listen to on my daily walks (presently, the sobhana dhamma series). I hope you will be encouraged to continue with it to the extent that you can find time, among your many current projects. I marvel at your output! Jon --- nina van gorkom wrote: > > Dear Sarah, (and Larry also), ... > N: I did not take up this detailed point about the measure of visible > object > which I did not understand in my Tiika transl, I just skipped it. I > skipped > large parts! I just saved it as a Q. for Bgk. > I try to make choices in the Tiika, it is too long at times. But I would > like your advice. > With each Intro I try to explain the main points so that people do not > get > drowned in terms. > I spend a lot of time with it, but if it is not useful I better stop. In > fact, I am always short of time, I do not mind. ... > N: I try as best as I can not to forget the purpose, with whatever I am > doing or writing, all day long. Also my translation of the Co. to > Rahula, I > just had this goal in mind. > Sarah and Larry, are there too many details in my Tiika work? I need to > know > this. > I talked to Lodewijk about it and he said that when he hears: only > reality > now, we have to know seeing now, it is not helpful for him. He always > has > trouble when he attends sessions in Bgk and hears this. It is very > personal, > different for each individual what is helpful. We agreed that there are > many > different kinds of people on a forum. People need to hear the Dhamma > from > different angles. He thinks that I should continue as I think good. > Maybe I > skip even more of the text, that saves time and energy. > I try to always keep in mind: can it help people to understand realities > now, as best as I can. But if you have time it will be appreciated if > you > also remind me and others about the goal of the study. You did this at > the > beginning of this Visuddhimagga thread. > Nina. 35992 From: jwromeijn Date: Sat Sep 4, 2004 2:57am Subject: Re: Bill against religious conversion; About Time --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Hello Joop, > ... > Christine says: Joop, I couldn't access your link about time Dear Christine, and all Time and Space: The Abhidhamma Perspective Y. Karunadasa, Postgraduate Institute of Pali and Buddhist Studies The essay can now be found on: http://www.indology.net/article5.html http://www.orientalia.org/printout594.html If "Time" is a pannatti (and not a paramattha), as Karunadasa concludes, then there is less reason to worry about the future: in reality there just is a moment we can call "Now". Metta, Joop 35993 From: htootintnaing Date: Sat Sep 4, 2004 2:58am Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhamma Thread ( 054 ) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "plnao" wrote: Hello Htoo Although I'm not seeking jhanas yet, I am finding your description of the jhana factors very interesting. This sentence doesn't quite make sense. I think there is a missing word due to a typo. I guess the missing word is "see" or "realize" >The scrutinization makes him that vitakka the jhana factor is a weak member. Metta, Phil ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Phil, Thank you very much. You are right to say there is something missing. Yes. I must admit that. That sentence is my second sentence. The first was with 'see' as you said. Most of the time, I just release without typo check and grammar check and spelling check, which I should not have done. The scrutinization gives him a clear vision that 'vitakka the jhana factor is a weak member'. It makes him understand that '.....' He becomes realise 'vitakka the jhana factor is a weak member' through scrutinization on all jhana factors. Here another problem that may arise is 'weak'. In which way it is weak? I have included these in the post. Weak because it is quite close to the danger as compared to other 4 jhana factors. Thanks again for your kind reply. With Metta, Htoo Naing 35994 From: htootintnaing Date: Sat Sep 4, 2004 3:03am Subject: Re: [dsg]details of the Tiika, Larry, Htoo. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@w... wrote: > Hi Nina, > N: "Posting all of the basic text: we need a working program now. what do you suggest, looking ahead now to the next sections???" > L: ....snip...We can vary our presentation quite a bit. For example, I > can post a paragraph and you can give a short clarification, then we can move on; or you can go into background info or bring in some tika; or .... > Larry ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Larry and Nina, What Larry says is a good way to present Dhamma. Bit by bit presentation, then followed by discussions. And then you can finalise all discussions and edit the whole discussion. Isn't that good for learners? With Metta, Htoo Naing 35995 From: htootintnaing Date: Sat Sep 4, 2004 3:24am Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 055 ) Dear Dhamma Friends, We are discussing on rupavacara cittas. 55th citta is 1st jhana citta that is rupakusala citta. 60th citta is its correspondent vipaka citta that is rupavipaka citta. 65th citta is 1st jhana citta that arises in arahats. We also have discussed 2nd jhana cittas. 56th citta is 2nd jhana citta that is rupakusala citta. 61st citta is 2nd jhana rupavipaka citta which is the corresponding resultant citta due to kusala kamma of 2nd jhana kusala citta. 66th citta is the 2nd jhana citta of arahats. Now those who attained 2nd jhana can stay in 2nd jhana. As in the 1st jhana, just acquisition of jhana for the first time does not make them proficient in jhana matter. They have to exercise their jhana as frequently as possible. No one stays in jhana ever. Especially for human beings, when they are not in jhana they will have kamavacara cittas. Instead of staying in sensuous things, those who have attained 2nd jhana will practise their 2nd jhana to be much more efficient. Through the exercises, once the practitioner becomes realised that vicara the jhana factor is also a weak member in 2nd jhana. Because he is the companion of vitakka, he may at any time call for vitakka as vitakka and vicara always pair and always arise together in lower cittas such as kamavacara cittas with the exception of 10 dvipancavinnana citta. He dispassionates vicara as jhana factor and he tries again his jhana without vicara. He contemplates that if jhana is without vicara, it will be much much more calmer than with vicara, which always hovering over the object and wandering by reviewing on the object. As his wish is for jhana without vicara and as he is striving his jhana again, at a time there arises the 3rd jhana without vicara. This citta arises once and lasts only one single moment and falls away. Then followed by bhavanga citta. After that the practitioner becomes the 3rd jhana owner. But as with other jhanas, this 3rd jhana has to be polished and brushed up to be much much more proficient. This 3rd jhana is called.. 'piti, sukhekaggata sahitam tatiyajjhana rupavacara rupakusala citta'. This is 57th citta of 89 cittas. This jhana citta creates kamma as it is a kusala citta and this will result in rupavipaka citta. The corresponding citta of this 57th citta is 62nd citta which is 3rd jhana rupavipaka citta. When the 3rd jhana citta arises in arahats, that 3rd jhana citta is called 67th citta and it is 3rd jhana rupavacara rupakiriya citta. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome and they will be valuable. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts. Thanks Phil for his comment on ( 054 ). 35996 From: htootintnaing Date: Sat Sep 4, 2004 3:49am Subject: Jhana Journey ( 12 ) Dear Dhamma Friends, When the jhana practitioner is on appana bhavana ( jhana meditation ) he is said to be in a state of jhana. It is just the start of the whole jhana journey. This jhana is called pathama jhana or the first jhana. Before arising of the jhana, there had been a lot of kusala cittas. The practitioner is exercising bhavana ( meditation ) on WHITE which becomes patibhaga nimitta . There are cittas which alternate between vithi cittas ( conscious mind or serial cittas of current object ) and bhavanga cittas ( unconscious mind or continous flow of cittas of past life object ). As he has cleaned all nivarana ( hindrances ) his mind is pure and all cittas that arise in him while he is practising jhana is kusala cittas. But there need a precaution that jhana has to be free of nivarana which may come in a subtle form such as 'somanassa sahagatam ditthi gata vippayutta asankharika citta' which is a lobha citta and akusala citta. This may be mistakenly assumed as piti of jhana, which is wrong. Bhavanga cittas series happen indefinitely and when jhana is nearly ready the last bhavanga stops and dies out and manodvara-avajjana (contemplating mind) arises. It falls away and parikamma (preparatory consciousness ) kusala citta arises and falls away. It is followed by upacara ( deputy or crownprince or proximate or neighbourhood consciousness ) kusala citta and it again dies out. After that a nana ( wisdomized mind ) which balances kusala cittas and incoming jhana cittas arises. It is anuloma ( balancing mind or negotiating mind ) kusala citta. It dies out again. Next arises is gottrabhu ( gateway or leaving mind or lineage-changing mind ) kusala citta. It divides the two worlds. It leaves the past kama ( sensual ) world and it engages the incipient jhana world. It falls away and the very first jhana citta arises only once and it falls away again. Then indefinite bhavanga cittas come in a long series. Now the jhana practitioner becomes conscious to his state and he contemplates on all matters that happened in his mind. He is now no more ordinary people. But he should not be proud or conceited on this matter. This will bring him back to kama world. To prevent this, he has to exercise and practise his attained jhana as frequently as he can. May you all achieve jhana happily. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 35997 From: htootintnaing Date: Sat Sep 4, 2004 4:16am Subject: Rob M'sTheory Behind The Buddha's Smile ( 04 ) by Htoo Dear Dhamma Friends, This is a good ebook called 'Theory Behind the Buddha's Smile' written by Rob M and this ebook can be viewed at 'Files' section. The messages there are very clear and they are non-tiring to read. We have read from the page 1 to the page 20. In page 21, Rob summerises cittas well in the table in a very interesting presentation. 1. Good point in the table Javana is stated as kamma-creating. This is a good point. But as there are kiriya javana, again this has to be careful that not all javanas are kamma-creating. 2. Javana ( Creates Kamma ) in the table It is good to see in tabular form as it is very clear and easy to understand. But I prefer to describe 'worldlings _ 1 to 12, instead of 1-12, and 31 to 38 , instead of 32- 38 arahat 30, 47 to 54, instead of 47-54' because there might be confusion. 3. Regarding registration I think Rob, you forgot to include 26th citta. There are 3 santirana cittas and 8 mahavipaka cittas that work for tadarammana citta or registration. 4. Once I have discussed about tadarammana in my Dhamma Thread series. I prefer tadarammana to be seen as retention consciousness rather than registration consciousness. Rupa last 17 cittakkahana. 15 cittakkhana have lapsed. 2 cittakkhana remain. Then tadarammana cittas arise one after another as 2 successive citta. They just retain the object sensed by javana cittas. They do not do any registration. This is my opinion. May these criticisms be beneficial. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 35998 From: Andrew Levin Date: Sat Sep 4, 2004 5:33am Subject: [dsg] Re: Bagels, Forest & Happy Walks RJKJP1, Please forgive my feeble understanding of the dharma, I am sure you know much more than me so I will ask you some questions to try to get a better understanding myself. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > Dear Andrew, > I first read the Visuddhimagga around 1984 or 5 and actually I did think > it was like some sort of meditation manual with stages of insight that > were nicely defined. It was great to have this confirmd by a couple of > teachers. Later I found out how much I had misunderstood. > But really it was much better to find out the truth and see just how > difficult and deep it is. Then I could start to investigate what is actually > happening now rather than pretending to have some special stages. > Everytime I take up the study of the Visuddhimagga it seems more > profound than the last time, the path out of samsara not something to > be underestimated at all. Patience grows with determination, one can > really face anything and let wisdom grow. > When we > consider Dhamma at the level of pondering, the thoughts are to > some extent rooted in amoha, wisdom, alobha, detachment and > adosa, non aversion. (Ideally that is - we can of course be > thinking about Dhamma with underlying delusion or attachment.) What is this, like reflecting on dhammapada verses or the ten un/wholesome actions? Or do you also mean the greater discourses like those on right view, and if so, do you meditate on them also or just try to put together a cognitive understanding as you read. > Right Understanding at the level of thinking is a crucial factor > before deeper levels can arise. This to me means understanding things like the sixfold sense base and dependent origination on an intellectual or thinking level. Is that what you meant? > And too, as the direct > understanding develops this supports more understanding at the > thinking level. It is an upward spiral - wise thinking, direct > understanding, wise thinking, direct understanding, > wisethinking.... A very gradual upward spiral, cira kala bhavana > (long, long time development). > Even after vipassana nanas are > reached (the real ones, not the imitation ) wise thinking and study is > needed to > further assist wisdom to grow. The visuddhimagga XVIII24 says > "after defining mentality -materialty thus according to its true > nature (i.e. after the first vipassana nana), then in order to > abandon this wordly designation of 'a being' and 'a person' more > thoroghly, to surmount confusion about beings and to establish > his mind on the plane of non-confusion he makes sure that the > meaning defined, namely 'this is mere > mentality-materiality,there is no being, no person' . He considers the > suttas in this way. Oooh. What are the imitation nanas anyway, how would one go about discerning whether they are going through the 'true' nanas or not. > > I think calm grows deep in accordance with how much anatta is > understood. For some reason I sometimes see people disdaining theory > about anatta - but theory is the first step. And that first step has to be a > broad, solid base otherwise the practice will go wrong in some way. > RobertK 35999 From: rjkjp1 Date: Sat Sep 4, 2004 2:32pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Bagels, Forest & Happy Walks --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Andrew Levin" wrote: > . > > When we > > consider Dhamma at the level of pondering, the thoughts are to > > some extent rooted in amoha, wisdom, alobha, detachment and > > adosa, non aversion. (Ideally that is - we can of course be > > thinking about Dhamma with underlying delusion or attachment.) > > What is this, like reflecting on dhammapada verses or the ten > un/wholesome actions? Or do you also mean the greater discourses like > those on right view, and if so, do you meditate on them also or just > try to put together a cognitive understanding as you read. > > This to me means understanding things like the sixfold sense base and > dependent origination on an intellectual or thinking level. Is that > what you meant ++++++++++++ Dear Andrew, Yes. There are levels upon levels of panna (understanding). When we think about impermanence, for instance, that nothing lasts even for a split second, that every moment is conditioned, this is a level of panna. However it is not the same as direct understanding. Another level is when we consider and see as realities are arising and passing away. So we realize to a degree, as it is happening, that dhammas are changing rapidly and that there is no self involved. We see that citta takes sound for an object and the next moment colour and then concept and there is understanding of how uncontrollable it is. We might imagine this is now direct understanding of rise and fall but I call this "thinking in the present moment." There is not yet penetration of the visesa-lakkhana, characteristics of nama and rupa. Direct awareness can come in between the moments of thinking or it can come even without such thinking. According to the Visuddhimagga until the first stage of vipasssana nana though, the difference between nama and rupa is not properly understood. For vipassana to arise there must be a firm intellectual understanding of anatta and this comes about by considering the teachings carefully and wisely and also by repeated testing and study of dhammas in the present moment. As these levels of understanding develop there is more comprehension of anicca, dukkha and anatta but not until later stages are they clearly seen. The process is a very gradual one that reduces self to one moment only. Now I have a slight pain around my eye, that is the concept, the thinking. The realities, the dhammas, include akusala vipaka through the bodysense (painful feeling) and there are cittas that experience heat and hardness. When we think about such painful or pleasant feelings is it "me' who is having pain or is self reduced to one moment? Usually we believe that 'I' am thinking, "I" am seeing, feeling, hearing. But the Dhamma helps to break down the idea of a whole, a person. The next moment is a new 'I' at a new location at the eyedoor or eardoor or bodydoor or mindoor. So uncontrollable and temporary. And this is understanding at the level of pondering the Dhamma. > > Oooh. What are the imitation nanas anyway, how would one go about > discerning whether they are going through the 'true' nanas or not. ++++++++++++ It depends on many factors whether there will be discernment or not. If there is attachment to the idea of being a sotapanna or one who has attained stages of insight then it is likely that one will take some strange experiences as signs of progress. I was at a temple in thailand and a monk from another Asian country was staying there. He was a vipassana instructor at a famous temple in his country. But the teacher at this temple didn't believe in the methods he followed and told him he had no insight at all and that he was just fooling himself. (This was after several discussions). The monk was brave enough to be able to give up his clinging to progress and could start in the right way. Some can't. There is not a need to try to discern whether one has had a stage of insight because it is panna which knows it. It will see clearly. What is needed is to know the difference between panna and lobha (clinging). If there is always clinging to the idea of having had insight or clinging to getting it then that blocks actual panna from arising. It is not easy to have understanding of the dhamma arising now - but that is all we need to know. When there is hoping that one has attained this or that stage what is present? There is clinging (lobha) - and that is the time to discern lobha. Robertk