36400 From: Date: Tue Sep 14, 2004 4:33pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Flip-flopping Hi Nina, N: "We cannot imagine what it means to be without eye-consciousness." L: One qualm, hearing a sound is being without eye-consciousness. I,m sure blindness comes in a variety of manifestations both with and without eye-consciousness. Larry 36401 From: Date: Tue Sep 14, 2004 0:36pm Subject: Re: [dsg] "... as parasites a tree." ??? Hi, Robert (and Sarah) - In a message dated 9/14/04 6:54:56 PM Eastern Daylight Time, rjkjp1@y... writes: > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > I disagree with you on this matter, Sarah. I believe that the > >anti-feminism quoted in your post copied below (and that's what I > read there) is good > >evidence for not considering the Jataka Tales, stories, and > commentaries - or > >much of them, at least - to be Buddha word, but instead reworkings > in the Buddhist context of traditional morality tales expressing > prejudices existing in > >the extant culture of the time. I really don't think that anti- > feminist speech > >should be accepted as skillful means of the Buddha and apologetics > be offered up for it. I suspect that the > >anti-feminism expressed in the Jataka quotes, were it really the > perspective of > >the Buddha, would have been enough to preclude the Buddha's > originating the > >sangha of nuns. > > > >+++++++++++++++++ > Dear Howard, > When the Buddha allowed the ordination of women he said in the > anguttara Nikaya (and also the vinya pitaka cullavagga, if I > remember rightly): > http://www.metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/4Anguttara- > Nikaya/Anguttara5/8-atthakanipata/006-gotamivaggo-e.htm > > "Ananda, if women did not obtain the going forth from the household > as homeless, in the dispensation of the Thus Gone One, the > dispensation would have lasted longer a thousand years Ananda, as > women have obtined the going forth from the household to become > homeless, it will not last long, the good Teaching will last only > five hundred years > Ananda, just as in an accomplished rice field, there falls an > illness named white seeds and it does not last long. In the same > manner in a dispensation in which there is the going forth for > women, the holy life does not last long. > Ananda, just as in an accomplished cane field, there comes an > illness named turning red and it does not last long. In the same > manner in a dispensation in which there is the going forth for > women, the holy life does not last long."" > ."" > Thus according to this the Buddha saw dangers in women ordaining but > this did not preclude him from originating the order of Bhikhunis. > RobertK > ___ ============================= I see this latter business as nothing more than a noting of the effect of mixing the sexes in a context in which there is supposed to be celibacy. (The order of Bhikkhus already existed.) While the mutual attraction of opposite sexes (as is the norm) in proximity to each other would have created difficulty, the Buddha obviously was "willing to be persuaded" that allowing going forth for people independent of sex took precedence. On the other hand, had the Buddha had such a "hina" (lowly, even despicable) view of women as expressed in the Jataka material, I would find it unlikely he would have allowed a Bhikkhuni Sangha. The material quoted by Sarah* is much worse than a matter of being unflattering to women, and I DO NOT believe it was the view of the Buddha. With metta, Howard *For the record: Obviously I don't think that Sarah shares the views expressed in the quoted material or is sexist in any way. /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 36402 From: Date: Tue Sep 14, 2004 4:38pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vis. XIV, 100 and Tiika. Hi Nina, In what kind of citta process does registration with roots occur? Also, it seems like the object of bhavanga, etc., would have to be a concept; correct? Larry 36403 From: Herman Hofman Date: Tue Sep 14, 2004 5:05pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Cetasikas' study corner11-Introduction(h) Hi everyone, Thank you to Sarah for her efforts in keeping this study corner fed :-) ================= "Summarizing the cittas which perform their function in a sense door process and then in a the mind-door process when a rupa impinges on one of the sense-doors: " ================== H > Rupas impinging on sense-doors is very much a spatial metaphor, to me. Is that warranted? Given that space is itself a rupa, is there a more accurate way to describe it? With regards to all the cittas below (including the snipped ones), how are they known, or experienced? Kind Regards Herman -atita-bhavanga (past bhavanga) -bhavanga calana (vibrating bhavanga) -bhavangupaccheda (arrest bhavanga, the last bhavanga arising before the object is experienced through the sense door) 36404 From: Date: Tue Sep 14, 2004 5:10pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Flip-flopping Hi Herman (and all else here), H: "There is no discovery of reality in this at all." L: I agree that understanding reality isn't just 5-door consciousness and wrong view is certainly and obviously the product of desire and even right view when not directly 'seen' is more often than not held with desire and desire is the root of suffering. The question is, why does one want to discover reality? To gain pleasure seems doomed to failure. The only other reason I can think of is to escape suffering. Maybe a scientist can figure out a way to eliminate blindness and all physical ailments all together. Do you think that will end suffering? Will a knowledge of cones and rods eliminate desire for visible object? I'm not saying we should reject science. Mostly I was trying to hook you into reading the Visuddhimagga. Happy trails, Larry 36405 From: nori Date: Tue Sep 14, 2004 6:08pm Subject: Pain, fake pills and electric shocks - Science channel Hi Dhamma Friends, I saw an interesing show on the Science channel regarding sensation and the experience of pain. They had set up some equipment to give mild electric shocks on the arm of many participants. They said that they were testing 2 new drugs, one that makes people experience more pain, and another that makes one experience less pain. They were however just fake placebo pills of flour. After they explained and gave everyone the pills that makes one experience more pain, ... everyone experienced more pain. After they explained and gave everyone the pills that makes one experience less pain, ... everyone experienced less pain. The results were very dramatic and pronounced as they showed everyones reaction on video. It was pretty amazing. In both cases they were getting the same level (current) of electric shock, yet only the expectation in their mind dramatically changed their experience of it. metta, n () r i 36406 From: nori Date: Tue Sep 14, 2004 6:17pm Subject: Pain, fake pills, and electric shocks - Science channel (w/added stuff) Oops, same post as before, just added some stuff I forgot. --- Hi Dhamma Friends, I saw an interesing show on the Science channel regarding sensation and the experience of pain. They had set up some equipment to give mild electric shocks on the arm of many participants. They said that they were testing 2 new drugs, one that makes people experience more pain, and another that makes one experience less pain. They were however just fake placebo pills of flour. After they explained and gave everyone the pills that makes one experience more pain, ... everyone experienced more pain. After they explained and gave everyone the pills that makes one experience less pain, ... everyone experienced less pain. The results were very dramatic and pronounced as they showed everyones reaction on video. The same shock in one case made people fall over in their chairs and beg to have it stopped, while in the other case they hardly twitched. It was pretty amazing. In both cases they were getting the same level (current) of electric shock, yet only the expectation in their mind dramatically changed their experience of it. metta, n () r i 36407 From: gazita2002 Date: Tue Sep 14, 2004 7:01pm Subject: Re: Bagels, Forest ....Andrew L Dear Andrew, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Andrew Levin" wrote: > > Robert, the point I am trying to get across is that I can't even > study. When I open the book up, there is no studying, no ability to > correlate one concept with another, there is only reading, as if it > were a novel. So I'm not currently able to put together an > understanding. I'm afraid I'm just making things worse by > accumulating blocks upon blocks of knowledge. > When I read this, Andrew, I had a strong feeling of my head bursting! I think you are showing a great deal of wisdom by knowing that these blocks and blocks of information are making things worse for you. Sometimes, I feel like there is too much to learn and I think that's the time to stop and go for a long bush walk .... at least, its what I do. Not suggesting this is what you should do, but I am relating to what you are saying and maybe its a good time for you to just back off a bit, just read what feels comfortable and leave the rest. Remember, the Dhamma can be like the poisonous snake, if taken the wrong way will turn around and bite us. Be easy on yourself Andrew. You can't make the knowledge grow, it just happens by itself all in good time. May you have lots of patience, courage and good cheer, Azita. 36408 From: nori Date: Tue Sep 14, 2004 8:04pm Subject: What is Meditation ? Hi Dhamma Friends, When most people sit for meditation, I think most people will perform Anapana of some sort, or the various forms of Vipassana. I think maybe less people will perform meditation in the following way as I will give in example. ---- I will copy a passage from `The Questions of King Milinda' (Milinda Panna). While not part of the Nikayas, it is considered authoritative and consists supposedly of replies from an arahant, or at least, an elder monk, named Nagasena. He defines Meditation in a way I believe is consistent with the Nikayas, but is, when explicated, different from the general agreement of what meditation actually is. His definition of meditation is partly this: A sustained and directed investigation into a chosen aspect of our nature and reality. This, I believe, includes processes of directed thought and reflection (i.e. investigation and evaluation), in addition to direct observation. Nagasena in Questions of King Milinda (oxford `Sacred Books of the East', T. Rhys Davids) Book V, 6: 'There are certain types of meditation, O king, that have been made known by the Blessed One, by him of knowledge and insight, by the Arahat, the Buddha Supreme. And they are these. The idea of the impermanence (of every thing and of every being), the idea of the absence of any abiding principle (any soul in any thing or any being), the idea of the impurity and the idea of the danger connected with the body, the idea of getting rid of evil dispositions, the idea of freedom from passion, the idea of peace, the idea of the dissatisfaction with the things of the world, the idea of the transitory nature of all conditions, … the idea of love...sympathy... with all beings,...', the idea of equanimity in all the changing circumstances of life, the idea of death, and the idea of the body. These, O king, are the subjects for meditation prescribed by the blessed one. And of these, whoever longing to be delivered from old age and death, takes any one as his subject of meditation, by that meditation does he become free from passion, set free from malice, set free from dullness, set free from pride, set free from wrong views. By that does he cross the ocean of Samsara, …" Book V, 15: 'And what O king, is the Blessed One's jewel of meditation? The meditation that consists of specific conceptions, and of investigation regarding them; - the meditation that consists of reflection only, specific conceptions being lost sight of; - the meditation that continues after specific conceptions and reflection on them have both ceased; - the meditation that is void (of lusts, evil dispositions, and Karma); - the meditation from which three signs are absent (of an unconverted life - lust, malice, and dullness) are absent; - the meditation in which no low aspirations remain. And when a Bhikku, O king, has put on this jewel of meditation (Samadhi), then ideas of lust, and ideas of anger, and ideas of cruelty, and all the various bad thoughts that have their basis in evil dispositions of pride, self-righteousness, adhesion to wrong views, and doubt - all these, since they come into contact with meditation, flow off from him, disperse and are dispelled, they stay not with him, adhere not to him. Just, O king as when water has fallen on a lotus leaf it flows off from it, is dispersed and scattered away, stays not on it … and why not? Because of the exceeding purity of the habit of meditation. This, O king is called "The Blessed One's jewel of meditation,"…" --- So while, it seems generally understood by many that conception and thought, should be left out of meditation, in the above example, "specific conceptions, and ... investigation regarding them (those conceptions)" is well included, at least in the early stages of development. The way I see it it this: states of concentration, such as those achieved through anapana, as well as other states of concentration can develop calm (samatha) and discernment in perception when done correctly, as well as other effects. Meditation, as I have given in this example (i.e. investigation, evaluation) develops wisdom and insight, that is, builds intelligence, and dispells ignorance. with metta, nori 36409 From: connieparker Date: Tue Sep 14, 2004 9:56pm Subject: Re: Samatha, Vipassana, Anicca...Nibbana & Discussion ( 01 ) Yikes, Sarah, Htoo - ..... S: I believe it is correct that not all akusala cittas give or can give rise to results as I've stressed before and that quotes such as the one I gave from the commentary to the A-Sangaha stress this: "a wholesome or unwholesome kamma which, although unable to produce a result by itself,becomes the condition for ..."etc. All kusala and akusala cittas accumulate, but it takes many such accumulated cittas before there is any kama-patha which will bring a result. When RobM and many others suggest that each wholesome/unwholesome javana mental state brings or has the potential to bring about a result, I don't think it's correct. Otherwise why have natural decisive support condition rather than just kamma condition? Each moment there is a slight lobha when we look up at the computer screen, it accumulates, but it cannot bring a result as Iunderstand. .... ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Now you come back to kamma patha. It is fine if you understand both. There are many vipaka cittas in our daily sense door process. But kamma patha when give rise its full effect, it is a great event like storm, floods, great fire, earthquakes and many other disasters. But when you are now sitting and reading up my messages, in between your understanding through your mind-door process there are also 5- sense-door-processes. These are also vipaka cittas like cakkhuvinnana, sampaticchana, santirana, tadarammana, bhavanga etc etc. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ...what's kamma? Any volitional act, from cetana directing the cetasikas of each citta to the conventional stories of deeds and 'will'... the nonself and conventional self kinds, I guess. Accumulations are (past/performed) kamma. Each javana has potential because of statements like: CMA p201 [Productive (janaka) kamma] ...Only a kamma that has attained the status of a full course of action (see section22 below) can perform the function of producing rebirth linking, but ***all wholesome and unwholesome kammas without exception can produce results during the course of existence***. All my looking at things accumulates (is kamma) and becomes/later acts as various conditions for more seeing, liking, disliking, etc? No single causes or results. peace, connie 36410 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Sep 15, 2004 0:42am Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner12-Introduction(i) Dear Friends, Cetasikas by Nina van Gorkom. http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== Introduction [contd] ***** I think that it is useful for the reader to review the enumeration of cittas I have given above, since I, in the following chapters on cetasikas, shall refer to cittas performing different functions in processes and to cittas which do not arise in a process. All these cittas are accompanied by different types of cetasikas. The study of cetasikas will help us to have more understanding of the intricate operations of the mind, of citta and cetasikas. It will help us to understand in theory that citta and cetasikas act according to their own conditions, and that an abiding agent who could direct mental activities is not to be found. The study of the realities as taught by the Buddha can remind us to investigate them when they appear in our daily life. Theoretical understanding of the truth is a foundation for the development of direct under-standing of realities as they present themselves one at a time through the six doors, through the senses and the mind. Since the aim of the study of the Abhidhamma is the development of right understanding of the realities of our life, I refer in this book time and again to its development. ***** [Introduction to be continued] Metta, Sarah ====== 36411 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Sep 15, 2004 2:27am Subject: Re: [dsg] "... as parasites a tree." ??? Hi Howard, Dighanakha & All, I understand and respect your comments, Harsh comments about women are never my choice of topic, but as D. asked for feedback, my own approach is to suspend judgment and to consider and reflect further when I come across anything surprising or even shocking in the texts. So very often what seems surprising or bewildering at one time, becomes a little clearer at a later time when understood a little more in the context of the entire teachings. There’s no rule that the Jataka commentaries or even verses or any other parts of the teachings should necessarily be accepted or appreciated by anyone however. --- upasaka@a... wrote: > What you quote from suttas in which the Buddha points out the > preeminance of the attraction women hold for men is, as you point out, > balanced by > mention of the corresponding impact that men have on women. .... S: I quoted from AN, Book of Ones, ch1, 1-10 where this is the case. What happens if we read a similar passage in another book without any such balance? For example, let me quote first and reference later: “Bhikkhus, I do not know of any other form so enticing, desirable, intoxicating, binding and causing infatuation and so dangerous for the noble ending of unpleasantness as the form of the woman. Bhikkhus, sentient beings, attached, swooned, bound, infatuated and clinging to the form of the woman come to grief for a long time become subjective Bhikkhus, I do not know of any other sound, . . . re. . . any other smell,. . . re. . . any other taste,. . . re. . . any other touch so enticing, desirable, intoxicating, binding and causing infatuation and so dangerous for the noble ending of unpleasantness as the touch of the woman. Bhikkhus, sentient beings, attached, swooned, bound, infatuated and clinging to the touch of the woman come to grief for a long time having become subjective. <...> Bhikkhus, sentient beings, attached, swooned, bound, infatuated and clinging to the form of the woman come to grief for a long time become subjectiveBhikkhus, I do not know of any other form so enticing, desirable, intoxicating, binding and causing infatuation and so dangerous for the noble ending of unpleasantness as the form of the woman. Bhikkhus, sentient beings, attached, swooned, bound, infatuated and clinging to the form of the woman come to grief for a long time become subjective Bhikkhus, I do not know of any other form so enticing, desirable, intoxicating, binding and causing infatuation and so dangerous for the noble ending of unpleasantness as the form of the woman. Bhikkhus, sentient beings, attached, swooned, bound, infatuated and clinging to the form of the woman come to grief for a long time having become subjective.” ..... S: After the quote, do we read the same lines about ‘the form of a man’ etc, the corollary we’d expect as before? No. Instead we read: “The woman talks to one with sword in hand and even to a sprite, Gets mixed up even with snake poison, which if stings would die. A woman does not speak with only one, Gets hold of the confused with a glance and smile, Or showing the body or with charming words Even the very pure are struck and fall The five strands of sense pleasures are seen in the woman, As forms, sounds, tastes, smells and touches....” <...> .... S: Are these lines about women any less unflattering than those in the Jataka verse I quoted about ‘the wiles, the wickedness and immorality of women-folk’ in Kunala Jataka, no536? I’m not sure. As Rob suggested, it doesn’t mean all women are like these descriptions, but who are we to question the knowledge of the Buddha, the great arahants and so on who could recall all their past lives and really understood the meaning of inherent tendencies and latent defilements which are so much more deep-rooted than any ideas we may have learnt about feminism or political correctness in this lifetime? The Vinaya texts are full of tales of the foolishness and vulnerability of men to the charms of women.Hence the laying down of so many rules on this account which many people see today as being sexist, referring to the ‘second-class’ rules of bhikkhunis and so on. Back to the sutta quoted which can be read in full here: http://www.metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/4Anguttara-Nikaya/Anguttara3/5-pancakanipata/006-nivaranavaggo-e.htm 5. Màtàputtasuttaü- The mother and son. This is how it started: “006.05. At one time The Blessed One abode in the monastery offered by Anathapindika in Jeta's grove in Savatthi. At that time both mother and son a bhikkhu and bhikkhuni had observed the rains in Savatthi. They constantly desired each others sight. The mother desired to see the son and the son desired to see the mother. The two seeing each other constantly, a relationship began and with the relationship confidence got established and they approached each other Fallen in love for each other without giving up robes, they secretly had sexual intercourse.” .... S: Of course as it stresses, it takes two sets of very perverted attachment in this case and by implication, as in the Jataka tale and other tales about fools, neither men or women are spared from the Buddha’s penetrating insights into the basest of intentions. Naturally, if he is addressed bhikkhus (or male birds), the emphasis is going to be on the dangers of association with women. To both men and women he also stressed the perversions and the way we take the ugly form of women for being beautiful and so on. Some might find even these descriptions distasteful too. So are all women (and men) capable of such despicable motives or acts as accused of in the Jataka tale or elsewhere or do the examples just pertain to the exceptionally bad lot? Again, I would suspend judgment, but have always found the following tale from Qus of King Milinda very interesting indeed: http://www.sacred-texts.com/bud/sbe35/sbe3515.htm [WOMEN'S WHILES.] 42. 'Venerable Nâgasena, it has been said by the Blessed One: With opportunity, and secrecy, And the right woo'r, all women will go wrong-- Aye, failing others, with a cripple even 1." ***** S: Please read the rest at the link and let me know what you think! I hope this partly answer’s Dighanakha’s qu in his post to Christine about how some ‘hardcore dsg members deal with this problem’. In short, speaking only for myself, I just leave aside parts of the texts I have difficulty with, knowing how very little wisdom has been accumulated to date....just enough to have confidence that it’s likely to be this ignorance rather than the texts themselves that blinds my vision. As Jon also wrote before to Howard: Jon: “I believe that when we come across something like this that runs counter to our intuitive views we should resist the temptation to immediately rationalise or reject it, and should simply acknowledge the difference that exists and keep it in mind for future reference. If later we find it confirmed by other textual sources, then maybe we need to consider further our views on the subject.” ***** and on another thread to Herman: Jon: “On the face of it, the story-line runs counter to standards we have been brought up to consider fair and decent. Actually, there are a number of aspects to the teachings that run counter to either our taught values or innately held beliefs, but many of these things we have now come to recognise as having merit or as more than likely being in accordance with the way things are.” ***** and once more: Jon: “If it's any consolation, Chris, many people have gone through similar exasperations in coming to understand the teachings. Being one of those myself, I've come to realise that there's a very simple explanation for this -- the teachings are counter-intuitive to wrong view!” ****** Metta, Sarah p.s Btw, Dighanakha, I thought your parody on the ‘consistent approach to the texts’ starting with “In the Kunala Jataka we learn that all women are actually different from how they conventionally appear to be”, was rather witty and clever, not that I wish to encourage you;-). =================================== 36412 From: rjkjp1 Date: Wed Sep 15, 2004 2:27am Subject: Re: [dsg] "... as parasites a tree." ??? --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Herman Hofman" wrote: > Hi Robert, > > Interesting discussions. > > > http://www.metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/4Anguttara- > Nikaya/Anguttara5/8-atthakanipata/006-gotamivaggo-e.htm > > "Ananda, if women did not obtain the going forth from the household > as homeless, in the dispensation of the Thus Gone One, the > dispensation would have lasted longer a thousand years Ananda, as > women have obtined the going forth from the household to become > homeless, it will not last long, the good Teaching will last only > five hundred years > Ananda, just as in an accomplished rice field, there falls an > illness named white seeds and it does not last long. In the same > manner in a dispensation in which there is the going forth for > women, the holy life does not last long. > Ananda, just as in an accomplished cane field, there comes an > illness named turning red and it does not last long. In the same > manner in a dispensation in which there is the going forth for > women, the holy life does not last long."" > ."" > Thus according to this the Buddha saw dangers in women ordaining but > this did not preclude him from originating the order of Bhikhunis. > > ========== > > Perhaps we can also conclude, then, that it was less important in the > eyes of the Buddha for there to be a long-lasting dispensation than to > exclude women ? > >+++++++++ Dear Herman, Later in this same sutta the buddha said; "Ananda, just as a man was to build an embankment as a future protection for a huge reservoir, so that water would not reach over the boundary these eight strong rules are declared to the bhikkhunis not to be thrown out until life lasts, as future protection."" He allowed ordination but set out the 8 garuka (weighty, heavy) rules that all bhikkhuni must abide by as a means to extend the future of the sasana. The commentary says that because of these 8 rules the sasana can last 5000 years; and the first council also helped to extend it beyond the 500 years. Robertk 36413 From: Date: Tue Sep 14, 2004 11:40pm Subject: Re: [dsg] What is Meditation ? Hi, Nori - In a message dated 9/14/04 11:11:20 PM Eastern Daylight Time, nori_public@a... writes: > Hi Dhamma Friends, > > When most people sit for meditation, I think most people will perform > Anapana of some sort, or the various forms of Vipassana. > > I think maybe less people will perform meditation in the following > way as I will give in example. > ================================ This is very interesting, Nori. I suspect this will be very well received on this list in particular. I think that what Ven Nagansena had to say here has much to commend it and really does constitute an important part of the cultivational practice. I don't, however, think it describes the core bhavana offered by the Buddha, as in the Satipatthana and Anapanasati suttas for example. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 36414 From: Date: Wed Sep 15, 2004 0:08am Subject: Re: [dsg] "... as parasites a tree." ??? Hi, Sarah - In a message dated 9/15/04 5:36:55 AM Eastern Daylight Time, sarahprocterabbott@y... writes: > What happens if we read a similar passage in another book without any > such balance? > > For example, let me quote first and reference later: > > “Bhikkhus, I do not know of any other form so enticing, desirable, > intoxicating, binding and causing infatuation and so dangerous for the > noble ending of unpleasantness as the form of the woman. Bhikkhus, > sentient beings, attached, swooned, bound, infatuated and clinging to the > form of the woman come to grief for a long time become subjective > Bhikkhus, I do not know of any other sound, . . . re. . . any other > smell,. . . re. . . any other taste,. . . re. . . any other touch so > enticing, desirable, intoxicating, binding and causing infatuation and so > dangerous for the noble ending of unpleasantness as the touch of the > woman. Bhikkhus, sentient beings, attached, swooned, bound, infatuated and > clinging to the touch of the woman come to grief for a long time having > become subjective. > <...> > Bhikkhus, sentient beings, attached, swooned, bound, infatuated and > clinging to the form of the woman come to grief for a long time become > subjectiveBhikkhus, I do not know of any other form so enticing, > desirable, intoxicating, binding and causing infatuation and so dangerous > for the noble ending of unpleasantness as the form of the woman. Bhikkhus, > sentient beings, attached, swooned, bound, infatuated and clinging to the > form of the woman come to grief for a long time become subjective > Bhikkhus, I do not know of any other form so enticing, desirable, > intoxicating, binding and causing infatuation and so dangerous for the > noble ending of unpleasantness as the form of the woman. Bhikkhus, > sentient beings, attached, swooned, bound, infatuated and clinging to the > form of the woman come to grief for a long time having become subjective.â€? > ..... > ----------------------------------------------------- Howard: Okay. No balance, but no problem either. It is a warning to monks about a very powerful area of craving. ----------------------------------------------------- > S: After the quote, do we read the same lines about ‘the form of a man’ > etc, the corollary we’d expect as before? No. Instead we read: > > “The woman talks to one with sword in hand and even to a sprite, > Gets mixed up even with snake poison, which if stings would die. > A woman does not speak with only one, > Gets hold of the confused with a glance and smile, > Or showing the body or with charming words > Even the very pure are struck and fall > The five strands of sense pleasures are seen in the woman, > As forms, sounds, tastes, smells and touches....â€? > <...> > .... > S: Are these lines about women any less unflattering than those in the > Jataka verse I quoted about ‘the wiles, the wickedness and immorality of > women-folk’ in Kunala Jataka, no536? I’m not sure. > -------------------------------------------------- Howard: I think it is *way* less unflattering. Many women do offer bodily glimpses and enticing words. And men are attracted. The relationship between the sexes is as it is, partly determined by biology and partly by society. But this material is most gentle compared to the Jataka material, which I find scurrilous. -------------------------------------------------- As Rob suggested, it> > doesn’t mean all women are like these descriptions, but who are we to > question the knowledge of the Buddha, the great arahants and so on who > could recall all their past lives and really understood the meaning of > inherent tendencies and latent defilements which are so much more > deep-rooted than any ideas we may have learnt about feminism or political > correctness in this lifetime? ------------------------------------------------- Howard: My questioning is what material constitutes the Buddha word, and I question it out of respect for the Buddha. And, yes, I will question. If I didn't question, I would be a fool. Saddha to me is confidence and trust, but not blind faith. ------------------------------------------------- > > The Vinaya texts are full of tales of the foolishness and vulnerability of > men to the charms of women.Hence the laying down of so many rules on this > account which many people see today as being sexist, referring to the > ‘second-class’ rules of bhikkhunis and so on. > > ============================ With metta, and confidence in the triple gem, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 36415 From: Klimov, Yulia Date: Wed Sep 15, 2004 5:00am Subject: Hurricaine Ivan I just wanted to offer anyone evacuating my house in Hollywood, Florida. I should have posted it sooner, but only today I realized that how many people are evcuating. Yulia 36416 From: Dan D. Date: Wed Sep 15, 2004 5:31am Subject: Re: [dsg] Flip-flopping Dear Nina, When you say, "We cannot imagine what it means to be without eye- consciousness," I beg to differ. There are many, many moments of hearing, thinking, tasting, etc. that are without eye-consciousness. Aside from word games about whether darkness is really the color black or whether it is "light dispells darkness" or "darkness dispells light", the experience of being without eye-consciousness is very common. In those moments there is no eye-consciousness, no light detected, complete darkness. Dan 36417 From: htootintnaing Date: Wed Sep 15, 2004 8:10am Subject: Re: Samatha, Vipassana, Anicca...Nibbana & Discussion ( 01 ) Connie: ...what's kamma? Any volitional act, from cetana directing the cetasikas of each citta to the conventional stories of deeds and 'will'... the nonself and conventional self kinds, I guess. Accumulations are (past/performed) kamma. Each javana has potential because of statements like:CMA p201 [Productive (janaka) kamma] ...Only a kamma that has attained the status of a full course of action (see section22 below) can perform the function of producing rebirth linking, but ***all wholesome and unwholesome kammas without exception can produce results during the course of existence***.All my looking at things accumulates (is kamma) and becomes/later acts as various conditions for more seeing, liking, disliking, etc? No single causes or results. peace, connie ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Dear Connie, Brilliant! There are patisandhi and pavatti that kamma can give rise to their effect. There is an exception in case of 12 akusala cittas. While all 12 akusala cittas can give rise to kamma that can give rise to pavatti effects, only 11 akusala cittas give rise to patisandhi effects. Uddhacca citta does not give rise to patisandhi effect. Nina has explained this in her posts. And I replied her that I had read the Tiika in Myanmar version regarding uddhacca. All 12 akusala do give rise to kamma that can give rise to pavatti effect or in the course of existence that is through of the life except patisandhi. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 36418 From: htootintnaing Date: Wed Sep 15, 2004 8:39am Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 062 ) Dear Dhamma Friends, Vinnanacayatana arupa jhana or the 2nd arupa jhana take the object citta which is the 1st arupa jhana or akasanancayatana arupa jhana. That arammana or object is paramattha dhamma that is citta. This is a distinction in vinnanancayatana arupa jhana cittas. All 5 rupa jhanas and the 1st arupa jhana take the object pannatta. They are not taking paramattha dhamma as their object or arammana. Again, the practitioner when he emerges from bhavanga cittas that followed the single vinnanancayatana arupa jhana citta, he has a look at what has happened and he checks his mind. He realises that he now has 2nd arupa jhana or vinnanancayatana arupa jhana. He has to exercise on his attained jhana so that his jhana becomes much more proficient. In vinnanancayata jhana, there is ekaggata cetasika as jhana factor and upekkha vedana accompanies ekaggata. This jhana is well calm and it is calmer than akasanancayatana arupa jhana. He has to practise to be able to access vinnanacayata jhana whenever he wants to stay in that 2nd arupa jhana. He has to practise to be able to stay in that jhana as long as he wants. He has to practise this jhana so that he can emerge from this at his will. He has to contemplate on this 2nd arupa jhana frequently. Through these exercises and checking, he becomes to realise that this vinnanancayatana jhana is quite close to akasanancayatana jhana. His jhana may at any time fall back to akasanancayatana jhana. This again may draw him back to rupa jhanas and finally back to kamavacara dhamma. Through contemplation, he becomes dispassionate on vinnanancayatana and he tries to stay without that vinnanancayatana. If there is no vinnanancayatana then there will be no chance to fall back to akasanancayatana. To do that, the practitioner has to practise his mind to take attention that there is nothing at all including vinnanancayatana. Now he is trying to see at an object which is nothing. This nothingness is just an idea and it is a pannatta. With his continued effort and practise and when conditions are there, there arise a citta that has ekaggata as jhana factor and this citta is accompanied by upekkha vedana. The object that this citta is taking is nothingness or natthibho-pannatta or the idea that there is nothing at all. There is no nivarana and there is no rupa related object. This is the third arupa jhana citta and it just arises once for the first time. After arising from bhavanga cittas, there arise vithi cittas taking contemplation on what has happened. Now the practitioner has to practise his 3rd arupa jhana or akincinnayatana arupa jhana. When this jhana citta arise in non- arahats, it is called 'akincinnayatana arupavacara arupakusala citta'. This citta is 72nd citta of 89 cittas in total. When this 3rd arupa jhana citta arises in arahats, it is 'akincinnayatana arupavacara arupakiriya citta. This citta is 80th citta of 89 cittas in total. When those who attained 3rd arupa jhana die while they are in 3rd arupa jhana as maranasanna javana, they will be reborn in arupa brahma bhumi as arupa brahma. When they are reborn in that realm, the patisandhi citta is 'akincinnayatana arupavacara arupavipaka citta'. This citta is 76th citta of 89 cittas. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: 1.Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome and they will be valuable. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts. 2. kinca means something and akinca means nothing. 36419 From: ericlonline Date: Wed Sep 15, 2004 8:55am Subject: Re: What is Meditation ? Hey Nori, N>So while, it seems generally understood by many that conception and thought, should be left out of meditation, in the above example, "specific conceptions, and ... investigation regarding them (those conceptions)" is well included, at least in the early stages of development. Well said. Vicara and Vitakka have been translated in different ways. Do you think they mean discursive thought? And why are they left behind in the jhana progression? N> The way I see it it this: states of concentration, such as those achieved through anapana, as well as other states of concentration can develop calm (samatha) and discernment in perception when done correctly, as well as other effects. This is not the main focus or goal of Anapana though. Let us not forget this. N>Meditation, as I have given in this example (i.e. investigation, evaluation) develops wisdom and insight, that is, builds intelligence, and dispells ignorance. OK but they are supports for each other. This is not an either or type of proposition. Wisdom supports calm abiding and calm abiding supports wisdom. Or Right Concentration goes hand in hand with Right View. Is this 'intelligence' you speak of above conceptual in its nature? PEACE E 36420 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Sep 15, 2004 10:00am Subject: Re: [dsg] Perversions Dear Sarah, op 14-09-2004 12:06 schreef sarah abbott op sarahprocterabbott@y...: . > S: Yes. For example now, we may look at our hands as we type or look at > our face in the mirror when we wash. We recognise the face and there’s > bound to be clinging and ignorance and therefore perversion of sanna, but > usually no wrong view or idea of a self existing at these times, I think. > Only panna can know when there’s awareness what kind of kilesa it is > appearing. N: Your examples are clear, thank you. My only point is the texts where I read what is eradicated at the stage of the sotapanna. sometimes it is difficult to have an opportunity for asking details, but Jon and I can also ask Kh. Anop, he knows such a lot. Another point for India, as I understand, all the mind-door processes of citta that succeed a sense-door process have a not so classifiable object? Thus, past rupa is not a concept, but it is not so classifiable, navattabbam aaramma.na.m? At the first stage of insight nama and rupa are experienced through the mind-door, and their different characteristics are realized. Thus, these objects are also not so classifiable? They are not concepts. Many difficult areas. Nina. 36421 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Sep 15, 2004 10:00am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vis. XIV, 100 and Tiika. op 15-09-2004 01:38 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > In what kind of citta process does registration with roots occur? N: I am going back to kusala kamma that produces vipaaka also in the course of life: Thus, the answer is: it depends on the kamma that produces it. However, the accompanying feeling mostly conforms to the feeling accompanying the javana cittas in the case of pleasant feeling or indifferent feeling. A very detailed area. When the sense-door process runs its full course, tadaaramma.na-cittas arise. Then also in the succeeding mind-door process tadaaramma.na-cittas arise. See also Vis. XVII, 130. A sense object that is ruupa cannot last longer than seventeen moments of citta. Before it comes into range (when the sense-door adverting-citta adverts to it, the first citta of a sense-door process) one moment may have past and then it runs for sixteen more moments, thus, it runs its full course. Or, when more than one moment has passed before it comes into range, then it falls away sooner. Depending on the duration of the process we have in the sense-door process an object that is very great (mahanta), great, slight, very slight. In the mind-door process we have: clear and unclear (see T.A. p. 120) L: Also, it seems like the object of bhavanga, etc., would have to be a concept; > correct? N: Not necessarily so. The objects are of six kinds. They are the same object as experienced by the last javana cittas of the previous life and these were conditioned by the kamma that produced the following rebirth-consciousness. These objects can be past, present and not so classifiable (navattabba.m arammana.m), see Vis. XVII, 160, footnote. The object can be a sense object, a sign of kamma, a sign of destiny. The rebirth-consciousness takes that same object but it is doorfreed, it does not experience it through a doorway. If that object would be visible object, that visible object is a past rupa, but a past rupa is not a concept. We discussed in Bgk that not so classifiable objects are among them. I do not know all details. It is a difficult area for me. Nina. 36422 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Sep 15, 2004 10:00am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Citta as experiencing, to Dan. Hi Howard, see my response to Larry and to Dan. Just now I got the point. Another aspect of looking at it. op 12-09-2004 18:08 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: >> >> Sujin's response to my "dark" was [paraphrase]: "[Laughing] That's >> right. Complete darkness. No seeing at all." >> >> Dan >> H: ========================== > Dark is the absence of light. Silence is the absence of sound. We can > experience darkness, can we not? .... N: The conversation was really subtle. At first hand I did not get the meanihng either, but due to circumstances I only looked again today at these posts. This delay was favorable to me. Nina. 36423 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Sep 15, 2004 10:00am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Bagels, Forest & Happy Walks Dear AL, Do not become disheartened. You are doing fine, I notice your questions. I know by the way people ask. I have a feeling that soon you will not need anymore medicaments and this regime. See below. op 14-09-2004 20:27 schreef Andrew Levin op andrewlevin@e...: Quotes Rob K: > When we think it is 'me" who is trying to understand it may seem >> easy or hard, helpful or unhelpul. But when we know it is only >> conditioned phenomena arising (no me anywhere) the study is purely >> a reminder of what is real now. N: Al, Rob's words can also be applied to your situation. Thus: It is not me trying to understand or having difficulties. When we know it is only conditioned phenomena arising (no me anywhere) all my efforts to understand are purely a reminder of what is real now. Just little by little, and it sure will be better later on. This is for all of us: we can only take in this or this amount of knowledge and understanding grows drop by drop. It is accumulated, this means: whatever you learn is never lost, but the citta that takes it, and falls away conditions the succeeding one. In this way it is passed on from moment to moment, you do not have to interfere with the cittas. We, all of us, have moments that we would like to have more understanding, or stages of insight, but then there is clinging, counteractive! Is taking in one sentence at a time not enough? Azita's good wishes are for all of us: patience, courage and good cheer. We should not forget the patience. Best wishes, Nina. 36424 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Sep 15, 2004 10:00am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Citta as experiencing, to Dan. Dear Dan, op 12-09-2004 17:31 schreef Dan D. op onco111@y...: > I know that when she asked that, my initial, rationalistic repsonse > was just as you say: "Light and dark cannot be experienced through > touch!" But in the experience of hardness, there is a complete > absense of seeing, no light whatsoever, complete darkness. > > Sujin's response to my "dark" was [paraphrase]: "[Laughing] That's > right. Complete darkness. No seeing at all." N: After Larry's remark to me it is clearer now. See my response: the world is dark when there is no seeing but there is something else like touching or hearing. In our ignorance we do not realize this. Nina. 36425 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Sep 15, 2004 10:00am Subject: Re: [dsg] Flip-flopping Hi Larry, op 15-09-2004 01:33 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > N: "We cannot imagine what it means to be without eye-consciousness." > > L: One qualm, hearing a sound is being without eye-consciousness. N: Thank you, Larry. That is a good reminder. It can cure us from some idea that eye-consciousness stays while hearing, but it is gone. A. Sujin said: the world is dark at all such moments when there is no seeing, but it just seems to be light all the time. It is only light when there is seeing. L: I,m sure blindness comes in a variety of manifestations both with and > without eye-consciousness. N: Yes, there are degrees. Nina. 36426 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Sep 15, 2004 10:00am Subject: The Removal of Distracting Thoughts, no 12 The Removal of Distracting Thoughts, no 12 Sutta: When, indeed, bhikkhus, evil unskillful thoughts due to reflection on an adventitious object are eliminated, when they disappear, and the mind stands firm, settles down, becomes unified and concentrated just within (his subject of meditation), through his reflection on an object connected with skill, through his pondering on the disadvantages of unskillful thoughts, his endeavoring to be without attentiveness and reflection as regards those thoughts or through his restraining, subduing, and beating down of the evil mind by the good mind with clenched teeth and tongue pressing on the palate, that bhikkhu is called a master of the paths along which thoughts travel. **** The Co gives a simile of a teacher who teaches a Prince who had come from a territory that was far away. He taught him the arts by way of five kinds of weapons and how he should use these. He told the Prince that he should return in order to rule over his royal property. If robbers would appear while he was on his way he should use bow and arrow and travel on. If these would break or get lost he should use a spear, if that should break or get lost he should use a sword, and so on. [N:Using five kinds of weapons]. The Prince did as was told him and after his return he ruled over the royal property. It is the same in the case of the bhikkhu. The Buddha told him to be diligent with regard to the higher consciousness (adhicitta) in order to attain arahtship. N: The citta with the eight attainments in jhaana that is based on vipassana is the higher consciousness, adhicitta. Thus this refers to a bhikkhu who has developed samatha and vipassanaa. Then a short summary is given of the preceding exhortations in five sections. I: The Co explains that the Buddha told the monk to attend to another object (nimitta) if he has unwholesome thoughts. N: In the case of attachment he should attend to foulness, in the case of dosa to metta or to the elements, in case of moha he should study Dhamma, listen, and inquire as to cause and effect. But all this should be done with vipassanaa, not without it. Co: And if he has abandoned those unwholesome thoughts he can develop vipassanaa further and attain arahatship. II: If this does not help, he should realize their danger. N: As was said before, he should realize their danger by the strength of paññaa. He could ring a bell and ask for advice from wise members of the Sangha. Good friendship is stressed. Co: III: If this does not help, he should not pay attention to these thoughts. N: He should with kusala citta pay attention to other objects, such as reviewing the requisites, thinking of the Buddha¹s excellent qualities, performing his daily tasks and manual labour with mindfulness and right understanding. Co: IV: If this does not help he should destroy the roots of those thoughts. N: He should realize the conditions of those thoughts. He should directly understand conditions. V: Co: If this did not help he should suppress them. N: As we have seen, it is said that he should subdue akusala citta with kusala citta. The clenched teeth we read about are as it were a bodily expression to the supreme effort and determination necessary for the attainment of arahatship, just as the Bodhisatta applied supreme effort to attain Buddhahood. This effort should be accompanied by strong paññaa. These five ways are like the five weapons the teacher gave to his pupil. If one weapon was broken or lost he could use the other kind of weapon depending on the occasion that presented itself. The Co adds: When he has developed vipassanaa he shall attain arahatship. As we see, the development of vipassanaa is stressed all the time, no matter in what way one abandons unwholesome thoughts. ***** Nina. 36427 From: Andrew Levin Date: Wed Sep 15, 2004 0:25pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Bagels, Forest & Happy Walks --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > Dear AL, > Do not become disheartened. You are doing fine, I notice your questions. I > know by the way people ask. I have a feeling that soon you will not need > anymore medicaments and this regime. > See below. Nina not to disrespect, but I don't think you're correct. My strong desire to learn the Buddha's teachings isn't present in other areas of my life, like my health and general well-being, and I still lack the ability to think critically and put together an *understanding* of the material I need. I have read some chapters from Abhidharma in Daily Life and I feel that now maybe I could identify a few wrong views that are present but I look at the copies of Vism, Majjhima Nikaya that I have and I really can't do anything with them. Even Dhammapada and a commentary I have called the Four Foundations of Mindfulness. My salvation may come from one practise guide I have, if I can manage to carry it out. Otherwise, I don't see any understanding of the dhamma coming any time soon. Remember when the Buddha said that he, through his own knowledge, saw that King Yama, at the gates of hell, thought "Indeed, those who do evil actions in the world have many tortures inflicted on them. Oh, that a Tathagata might arise in the world, and that I might wait on him, and I would come to understand that Blessed One's dhamma." Well the Tathagata has arisen in the world, I have just yet to understand his dharma. As it is, frankly, my mind-stream will be sinking down into the lower realms if nothing changes. Its the truth. 36428 From: m. nease Date: Wed Sep 15, 2004 0:31pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:Samatha, Vipassana, Anicca...Nibbana & Discussion ( 01 ) Hi Sarah, Apologies for the delay: ----- Original Message ----- From: "sarah abbott" To: Sent: Tuesday, September 14, 2004 1:47 AM Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:Samatha, Vipassana, Anicca...Nibbana & Discussion ( 01 ) > > My problem with this in the past has simply been the meaning of the word > > 'result'. Reading in English I haven't always taken it to mean > > 'vipaaka', > > so future natural decisive support condition could've been 'a result'. > > So > > my question is, when we read ""a wholesome or unwholesome kamma which, > > although unable to produce a result by itself,", was the original Paali > > here > > 'vipaaka'? > ..... > S: I don't have the Pali, but from the context of the previous paragraph, > I think 'result' clearly refers to vipaka and kamma produced rupas. The > previous para reads: > > "Therein, a wholesome or unwholesome volition that produces resultant > [consciousness] (vipaka) and kamma-born materiality both at relinking and > during activity is called a 'generating' kamma." Right--I should probably assume 'vipaaka' is meant when I read the translation 'result'. > Then it continues with the para about 'supporing' kamma which I gave. > > (See also BB's notes on p200 f in CMA, though of course the commentary > itself is always the most precise as in the comments Dan and KenH were > discussing). > > I'm pretty sure from the text that 'future natural decisive support > condition' is not included in 'result' here. Agreed, thanks for the clarification. mike 36429 From: Andrew Levin Date: Wed Sep 15, 2004 2:27pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Bagels, Forest & Happy Walks Nina, I'd just like to personally thank you for the works you've contributed to the community and to your personal presence here and correspondence with me. You are doing yourself and the rest of us a great service. I'm off. peace, AL 36430 From: Herman Hofman Date: Wed Sep 15, 2004 3:26pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Flip-flopping Hi Larry, Thanks for your post. It has led me to consider more. ==================== H: "There is no discovery of reality in this at all." L: I agree that understanding reality isn't just 5-door consciousness and wrong view is certainly and obviously the product of desire and even right view when not directly 'seen' is more often than not held with desire and desire is the root of suffering. The question is, why does one want to discover reality? To gain pleasure seems doomed to failure. The only other reason I can think of is to escape suffering. Maybe a scientist can figure out a way to eliminate blindness and all physical ailments all together. Do you think that will end suffering? Will a knowledge of cones and rods eliminate desire for visible object? I'm not saying we should reject science. Mostly I was trying to hook you into reading the Visuddhimagga. Happy trails, ==================== Before I start reading I just gotta know, was the Visuddhimagga written before or after the predicted end of the dispensation :-) ? I agree with your points about the ending of suffering. Which led me to consider the following: For the Buddha it was no longer necessary to investigate the particular conditionality of each particular phenomenon. It was enough to know simply this; that all phenomena are conditioned, and that they are all anicca, anatta and dukkha. He could have penetrated the precise conditionality of any particular process he would have turned his attention to, but, as you allude to, it is simply not relevant to the ending of suffering to do this. And this is what he taught. As well as, and more importantly so, the way to the unphenomenal. And so I agree with you that science, in its quest to spell out ever more precisely the particular conditions that apply to specifics, does not contribute to an end of desire or suffering, because it doesn't ever get to the bottom and find some unconditionality. Which conclusion has a bit of a sting in the tail, because I am led to the same conclusion about the elaborations of post-sutta Buddhism, which also delve deeper and deeper into specifics. The Buddha simply had no interest in the phenomenal world. (He said that he did not recommend becoming even for as long as a finger snap, or thereabouts ) Thanks again and Kind Regards Herman 36431 From: Date: Wed Sep 15, 2004 11:53am Subject: Re: [dsg] Flip-flopping Hi, Herman (and Larry) - In a message dated 9/15/04 6:25:00 PM Eastern Daylight Time, hhofman@t... writes: > And so I agree with you that science, in its quest to spell out ever > more precisely the particular conditions that apply to specifics, does > not contribute to an end of desire or suffering, because it doesn't ever > get to the bottom and find some unconditionality. > > Which conclusion has a bit of a sting in the tail, because I am led to > the same conclusion about the elaborations of post-sutta Buddhism, which > also delve deeper and deeper into specifics. The Buddha simply had no > interest in the phenomenal world. (He said that he did not recommend > becoming even for as long as a finger snap, or thereabouts ) > =========================== I'm largely in agreement with you, Herman. Delving deeper and deeper into specifics is to little avail, at least not at the level of irrelevant characteristics, and not at the mere intellectual level. But we *must* look at phenomena, looking with the intention of discovering their fundamental nature of emptiness: being merely impermanent, undependable, impersonal, dependent and coreless wisps, in order to let go of them all and to see through them, acquiring the "view from nibbana" - the indescribable suchness of reality. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 36432 From: Herman Hofman Date: Wed Sep 15, 2004 4:05pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Bagels, Forest & Happy Walks Hi Andrew, I feel for you, bro. ============== As it is, frankly, my mind-stream will be sinking down into the lower realms if nothing changes. Its the truth. ============== I accept that you know your own state of mind better than anyone else. And I accept that you are unable to think clearly or how you would like to. I am still encouraged that you know these things about yourself. This is insight, and there is no reason to think that all of a sudden you will be left insightless into your condition. You are experiencing much and great unpleasantness. The unpleasantness is real enough. But there is no necessity to accept any particular kind of meaning over any other meaning of whatever it is you experience. There was a time in my life when I saw snakes just about anywhere I cared to look. Not cute little friendly snakes, but poisonous, dangerous, aggressive snakes. I knew they weren't real, but it was still driving me to despair. One day I realized these snakes didn't have to mean what I took them to mean. I decided to joke around with them. Every time I saw snakes, I imagined them wearing funny hats. Ridiculous, but true. You'd be surprised how many different funny hats a person can concoct in their imagination. And snakes wearing funny hats loose their venom, somehow. It probably took three months before I stopped hallucinating altogether. I'm not making light of your situation, Andrew, but if you're going to be spending some time with animals or ghosts, you might as well have a bit of fun while you're there. I mean that seriously!! If the books aren't helping, or are making things worse, put them to one side. You have insight, Andrew, your writing is full of it. And you can trust that. All the best Herman 36433 From: Herman Hofman Date: Wed Sep 15, 2004 4:25pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Flip-flopping Hi Howard, ========== But we *must* look at phenomena, looking with the intention of discovering their fundamental nature of emptiness: being merely impermanent, undependable, impersonal, dependent and coreless wisps, in order to let go of them all and to see through them, acquiring the "view from nibbana" - the indescribable suchness of reality. ========== Yes, yes, yes!!! Kind Regards Herman 36434 From: plnao Date: Wed Sep 15, 2004 4:47pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Bagels, Forest & Happy Walks Hi Andrew I'll join the chorus of folks concerned for your well being. This might be sacrilegious (sp?) but I personally feel modern medicine has better insight into and is better equipped to deal with harsh forms (rather than the subtle forms we all have) of mental illness than the Buddha was/is, so I trust you will be sticking with your meds. I can relate to your relationship with books - I'm sure we all can. I also have a copy of Vism that makes me feel slightly panicky every time I come across it lying more or less unread, and with the parts that have been read long gone from my brain. That goes for all my books, including Abhidhamma in Daily Life, which I've read through twice and have retained almost nothing, and Rob M's book which I read only in the last couple of weeks, and with keen attention, since I was making comments - but now it's gone. So if it's any reassurance, judging from the discussions you have been in and the questions you have asked and the comments you have made your understanding has arisen a lot faster than mine. And you're a lot younger. You have cause for patience. I don't know the details of your medical condition, and forgive me for taking the liberty of guessing, but I assume you're bi-polar and are aware of an oncoming crash after a manic period. Thus the desire to read a lot and study a lot and understand a lot to stave off the oncoming period of depression. If that's the case - and it probably isn't 'cause I'm just guessing - none of us know what you're dealing with and our words won't help much. But our metta goes out to you - I'm sure you can feel that. (Well, it's not "our" metta, but you know what I mean.) But we have a long way to go and many lifetimes. Let's press ahead gently with "patience, good cheer and courage" - I think that's what Azita says. See? I can't even remember that! As for Dhamma study, I'd like to encourage you again to consider reading Nina's book on the Perfections. I see Robert was also encouraging you in that direction. Actually, my printed out copy is so covered with various coloured highlighter markers that it is blinding to read. (Some paragraphs are covered with a combination of purple, pink, lime green and orange from my four readings of the book! ) I have been thinking I'd like to have a condensed version, so with the permission of this group I will start posting passages as I'm doing with "Deeds of Merit." (I'll take a break with that one in the meanwhile.) I think it is Nina's greatest book, because it teaches Abhidhamma in the context of daily life even more than ADL does, and the Perfections (paramis) really get at an inspiring model of how good people can be, how we can keep our mind-streams from sinking into the lower realm, as you put it, by developing the Buddha's perfections. Take care, Andrew. We'll be rooting for you. Metta, Phil 36435 From: gazita2002 Date: Wed Sep 15, 2004 4:53pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Perversions Dear Nina and Sarah, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > Dear Sarah, [cut] > Another point for India, as I understand, all the mind-door processes of > citta that succeed a sense-door process have a not so classifiable object? > Thus, past rupa is not a concept, but it is not so classifiable, navattabbam > aaramma.na.m? > At the first stage of insight nama and rupa are experienced through the > mind-door, and their different characteristics are realized. Thus, these > objects are also not so classifiable? They are not concepts. > Many difficult areas. > Nina. T.A.Sujin described this event - the taking up of the object by the mind door, after the sense door - as two pieces of thin paper, one on top of the other; if a drop of water touched the first sheet then it would [almost] instantly reach the second sheet. Maybe you have heard this before, but when I heard it, that not- so-classifiable-object concept became a little clearer for me. Patience, courage and good cheer, Azita. 36436 From: Date: Wed Sep 15, 2004 4:48pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Flip-flopping Hi Howard, You wrote, "...suchness of reality." "Suchness" is tathata. I wonder if sabhava is a synonym of tathata, also found in tathagata, "thus gone one". Larry 36437 From: plnao Date: Wed Sep 15, 2004 5:10pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Cetasikas' study corner11-Introduction(h) Hi Herman H : With regards to all the cittas below (including the snipped ones), how are they known, or experienced? -atita-bhavanga (past bhavanga) -bhavanga calana (vibrating bhavanga) -bhavangupaccheda (arrest bhavanga, the last bhavanga arising before the object is experienced through the sense door) Ph: Well, first shut all the windows, and sit very, very still on a cushion, and while tuning into your breath, place your fingertips gently on your temples... Seriously, for what it's worth, here's my take on bhavangas. We can't and will not know or experience them in this lifetime. (I notice that in Abhidhamma in Daily Life, a chapter is entitled "The ahetuka cittas which are unknown in daily life." I don't think bhavangas are ahetuka, but perhaps the same "unkown in daily life" could apply.) When I say "we", I mean we ignorant worldlings. Thankfully, in his great compassion the Buddha decided to share the understanding and insight he gained, and taught us about the bhavangas and other cittas unknown in daily life. (I know you have doubts about the veracity of Abhidhamma as word of the Buddha, but tough taters, as they say ;) ) How do we benefit from knowing about the bhavangas? Along with all the other unknowable cittas that arise during, and in the case of bhavangas between, sense-door and mind-door processes, they point at the lack of a self behind things. Understanding them intellectually helps give rise to an intellectual understanding of anatta. And from there, who knows how deep in to direct understanding of realities we will go in this lifetime and in the lifetimes to come? This is my take. I hope others will step in if they think bhavangas are indeed to be known and experienced by worldlings. Metta, Phil 36438 From: plnao Date: Wed Sep 15, 2004 5:25pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Bagels, Forest & Happy Walks Hello again, Andrew. Phil: > I have been thinking I'd like to have a > condensed version, so with the permission > of this group I will start posting passages as I'm doing with "Deeds of > Merit." (I'll take a break with that one in the meanwhile.) > I think it is Nina's greatest book, because it teaches Abhidhamma in the > context of daily life even more than ADL does, and the Perfections (paramis) > really get at an inspiring model of how good people can be, how we can keep > our mind-streams from sinking into the lower > realm, as you put it, by developing the Buddha's perfections. > Take care, Andrew. We'll be rooting for you. Come to think of it, I would like to press ahead with the Deeds of0Merit postings, so instead of posting passages I'll just give you the link again, along with Robert's encouragement. Of course, I recommend this book to everyone, not just Andrew. >> Robert: yes, very good. It has to take time to let understanding grow. I think if you can find the right things to read they will be the food that nourishes wisdom. I kept a copy of this book with me constantly for almost year and would read it even for a few minutes any chance I got: http://www.abhidhamma.org/perfections%20of%20enlightenment.htm Metta, Phil 36439 From: Date: Wed Sep 15, 2004 4:30pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vis. XIV, 100 and Tiika. Hi Nina, Thanks for your answers regarding registration with roots and the object of bhavanga. I didn't completely understand the answers but maybe it will become clearer as we go along. Also, concerning no eye consciousness and dark, I think I disagree with everyone. It seems to me dark is an object of eye consciousness, essentially black or shades of grey, while no eye consciousness isn't anything visible at all. Basically not a visual experience. I'm tempted to say the nibbana of eye consciousness, but I won't. Also, I think silence is something we hear. So it's different from no ear consciousness. But I might flip-flop on that one. Larry 36440 From: Catalin Date: Wed Sep 15, 2004 3:56pm Subject: 21 questions about Buddhism Hello, I have a few questions about Buddhism to which I haven't found an satisfactory answer yet. The questions are not related to each other and are nor sorted by importance: 1) Why do we,nirvana,Buddha,souls,karma,everything,etc. exist (according to Buddhism)?What is the purpose of life and this world? 2) If nothing really is, then why keep living and not suicide? We can't really kill ourselves if we really don't exist...Why trying to escape something that doesn't actually exist? 3)Why are there miracles in all the worlds religion, some witnessed by many, even in religions with totally opposed dogmas? 4)Why do some Buddhist build huge Buddha statues when Buddha was just a man and didn't demand worshiping? And also why they worship gods not related to Buddhism (from popular mythology) when Buddha said we don't need Gods? 5)Why do some people from some schools pray for help from the Buddha? Isn't Buddha in nirvana away from our words? 6)I found this quote: "The 4th Buddhist council (c. 100 AD) - . Theravada Buddhism does not recognize the authenticity of this council, and it is sometimes called the “council of HERETICAL monks”." -isn't Buddhism an tolerant religion? And what about calling some of the Buddhist ways a LESSER vehicle, or nichiren attitude towards other branches of Buddhism? etc.. 7)How can different ENLIGHTENED persons have different opinions about what the truth is and what is the best path to get there? If someone really becomes enlightened shouldn't he be able to see which one of the schools of Buddhism is the right one and guide people there? And how can enlightened people see the world in different ways when they should know the same truth? 8)In Mahayana people take vows not to obtain nirvana and help other first...how can someone help someone else attain something that he doesn't have and he doesn't actually experienced for himself that the path he teaches is the good path? This reminds me about "If a blind man leads a blind man, both will fall into a pit." Isn't a better way to first attain nirvana like Buddha did and AFTER that help others? 9) What is the difference between "attaining nirvana", "attaining buddhahood","becoming an arahat" and "attaining enlightment"? 10)If a person (like Buddha) attains nirvana then we does he keep having desires like eating, breathing, desiring to teach and help others, etc.? Shouldn't he just disappear or die when he reaches nirvana? And how can someone reach nirvana without the DESIRE and CRAVING to reach nirvana and the DESIRE and CRAVING to escape DESIRE and CRAVING? 11)If when someone dies memories(soul/Atman) also die, then how come Buddha and others can remember past lives? 12)How can a Lama know the future and predict where he will be reborn? Knowing future=no free will... 13)Doesn't Karma eliminate free will? For example if X hurts Z then X is forced to hurt Z because Z mistakes from his past lives so the negative karma from Z is transfered to X? And what if X is just evil and Z is good and was also good in his past lives , why is he suffering from another cause different than karma? And if karma decides everything, and every effect has a cause and causes cannot be created by human beings, isn't that a believe in a unchangeable destiny and the elimination of free will? 14)Rebirth and karma-where are the proves they exist? They don't seem more real than the gods of ancient Greece or Santa Clauses... It is is true that every effect has a cause but there is no prove of the existence of good and bad outside a particular moral system (and moral systems can be different, and are in constant changing), so that means if in you society is bad to be gay then the gay karma is bad and if the society changes and being gay (for example) is good then also karma is positive? Who decides what is good and what is bad and how much good and bad karma should be assigned to a particular deed? Like I said, karma and rebirth look like pure mythology. 15)How can we trust personal experiences through meditation and other Buddhist practices? An schizophrenic or someone who takes LSD or someone who stayed too much in the sun may meet Santa Claus, then that means that Santa Claus exists? And some branches of Tibetan Buddhism even use some weird and questionable methods to attain "truth"... 16)Why are sects like pure land Buddhism and nichiren Buddhism (especially SGI) (and even left hand tantra vajrayana Buddhism) considered as being "Buddhist"? Jainism and some Hindu sects are MUCH closer to Buddhism than them! 17)Is Buddhism part of the Hindu religion as some Hindus say who also see Buddha a reincarnations of their God? 18)Can I be a Buddhist without a Buddhist community existing in my city and country and belonging only in "Internet shanghas" and having only web sites and groups like this one as teachers? 19) If someones believes in the Buddhist philosophy and way of life but rejects Buddhist mythology (karma,rebirth,gods,etc.) is he a Buddhist?For example I see Buddhism paths as a way to reprogram the brain and lie it to become happy and stop fearing dead (reaching nirvana), am I a Buddhist(yes,I am a programmer and an engineer :) )? And I see karma as a moral law: if you hurt someone then that someone may hurt you but for example if someone kills someone and no one knows or someones donates huge sums of money without anyone knowing then that person isn't affected in any good or bad way by any paranormal Karma force (maybe only his conscience is affected depending of his view of the world). 20)Where can I find all the pali canon for download (in English) and also the main writings of the other main Buddhism schools (Zen, Tibetan,Tendai,Pure Land, etc.)?And also a guide with the names of these writings (for example "The pali Canon contains the sutras named X,Y,...")and what they contain and what is their importance in different schools(for example" the pali canon contains sutra X which is important for the Z school but unimportant for the A schools"). I found some collections of e-books but I don't know which belongs to pali canons and which to other schools and which is more important and which is less important to study. 21)Where are the best places on the Internet to place questions like these? I hope you will forgive my bad English and don't find any of my questions offensive. If this is not the right place to put these questions then I am sorry. Catalin PS: I chose to post to these 5 groups because from all the Buddhist groups from Yahoo they seem most active. I again apologize if I broke any rule but I don't know where else could I ask these questions. 36441 From: Herman Hofman Date: Wed Sep 15, 2004 6:49pm Subject: RE: [dsg] 21 questions about Buddhism Hi Catalin, Thanks for sending this again. Come to think of it, it was probably to another list. Anyways, it made me reread your questions again, and I saw something I skimmed over before. I don't have any answers to your questions, but you might be interested in my take on one of your points. You wrote: ================= And I see karma as a moral law: if you hurt someone then that someone may hurt you but for example if someone kills someone and no one knows or someones donates huge sums of money without anyone knowing then that person isn't affected in any good or bad way by any paranormal Karma force (maybe only his conscience is affected depending of his view of the world). ================= I see karma in the following way. With whatever intention you act in the world from time to time, so you will perceive the world to act towards you from time to time. If you act with greedy, hateful, lustful or whatever motivation than this will come back to you. Only it will seem that others are behaving like this towards you. Similarly, if you are filled with love, compassion, joy or equanimity, then this is how you will see the intentions of others towards you. As I said, not an answer to your questions, but hoping it is helpful. Kind Regards Herman 36442 From: Date: Wed Sep 15, 2004 3:37pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Flip-flopping Hi, Larry - In a message dated 9/15/04 8:11:17 PM Eastern Daylight Time, LBIDD@w... writes: > Hi Howard, > > You wrote, "...suchness of reality." > > "Suchness" is tathata. I wonder if sabhava is a synonym of tathata, also > found in tathagata, "thus gone one". > > Larry > ======================== I kind of doubt it. In early Theravada I think sabhava (harmlessly) meant "characteristic". In some other early schools, and possibly in later developments within Theravada it came to take on its literal meaning of "own-being", which suggests essence, core, and independent existence, and which probably led to the Path of Discrimination and also Mahayana criticizing the term. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 36443 From: Date: Wed Sep 15, 2004 3:43pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vis. XIV, 100 and Tiika. Hi, Larry - In a message dated 9/15/04 8:57:23 PM Eastern Daylight Time, LBIDD@w... writes: > Hi Nina, > > Thanks for your answers regarding registration with roots and the object > of bhavanga. I didn't completely understand the answers but maybe it > will become clearer as we go along. > > Also, concerning no eye consciousness and dark, I think I disagree with > everyone. It seems to me dark is an object of eye consciousness, > essentially black or shades of grey, while no eye consciousness isn't > anything visible at all. Basically not a visual experience. I'm tempted > to say the nibbana of eye consciousness, but I won't. > > Also, I think silence is something we hear. So it's different from no > ear consciousness. But I might flip-flop on that one. > ----------------------------------------------- Howard: The mind door gets to "draw upon" all the other senses in a way. We "hear" silence through the mind door, and we "see" darkness throught the mind door. All absences are known through the mind door, I believe, but they differ in that one may be a sound absence, another a sight absence, etc. ----------------------------------------------- > > Larry > > ========================= With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 36444 From: Date: Wed Sep 15, 2004 5:08pm Subject: Re: [dsg] "... as parasites a tree." ??? Hi again, Sarah - In a message dated 9/15/04 7:11:31 AM Eastern Daylight Time, upasaka@a... writes: > -------------------------------------------------- > As Rob suggested, it> > >doesn’t mean all women are like these descriptions, but who are we to > >question the knowledge of the Buddha, the great arahants and so on who > >could recall all their past lives and really understood the meaning of > >inherent tendencies and latent defilements which are so much more > >deep-rooted than any ideas we may have learnt about feminism or political > >correctness in this lifetime? > > ------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > My questioning is what material constitutes the Buddha word, and I > question it out of respect for the Buddha. And, yes, I will question. If I > didn't > question, I would be a fool. Saddha to me is confidence and trust, but not > blind faith. > ------------------------------------------------- > ============================= I'd just like to clarify a couple points about the foregoing. One is that my questioning is not a questioning of the Buddha's knowledge, which I have great confidence in, but rather is a questioning of what passed on material really represents the Buddha word. The other point is that I was talking only about myself when I said "If I didn't question, I would be a fool." I have no doubt that you have a mind that is very much open to the possibility of things not being the way they appear and to the possibility of "authorities" being in error with regard to specific facts. Some of us may be more likely to question certain matters, and others more likely to question other matters. I want you to know that in saying that I would be a fool if I did not question, I was not in the slightest casting any aspersions on you. (I want to rule that out as a possible interpretation! :-) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 36445 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Sep 15, 2004 9:19pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Flip-flopping Dear Dan, Yes, you are completely right. What was in my mind: a blind person without any eyesight. But that was not the point in your conversation with Kh Sujin. As I said to Larry, it is such a good reminder, all those dark moments. Excellent. Thank you, double reminders today. And now it is to be realized! But we cannot try. It depends on whether there are enough accumulations for the arising of sati sampajañña. Kh Sujin reminds us not to confuse thinking and awareness, and to be very sincere, truthful, not deluding ourselves. Nina. op 15-09-2004 14:31 schreef Dan D. op onco111@y...: > When you say, "We cannot imagine what it means to be without eye- > consciousness," I beg to differ. There are many, many moments of > hearing, thinking, tasting, etc. that are without eye-consciousness. > Aside from word games about whether darkness is really the color > black or whether it is "light dispells darkness" or "darkness > dispells light", the experience of being without eye-consciousness is > very common. In those moments there is no eye-consciousness, no light > detected, complete darkness. 36446 From: Date: Wed Sep 15, 2004 8:29pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vis. XIV, 100 and Tiika. Hi Howard, H: "The mind door gets to "draw upon" all the other senses in a way. We "hear" silence through the mind door, and we "see" darkness through the mind door. All absences are known through the mind door, I believe, but they differ in that one may be a sound absence, another a sight absence, etc." L: I agree that absences are known through the mind door; so no eye consciousness is known through the mind door. We could reason that dark is the absence of light, but don't you experience the dark? When it is suddenly quiet, don't you experience silence? That suggests to me that dark and silence can be objects of sense consciousness. We might further ask if the 'knowing' of no eye consciousness is in any way similar to the experience of nibbana in a path moment. I would say there could well be some similarity if for no other reason than that this knowing of an absence sounds similar to the immaterial jhanas and I suspect these jhanas are a near stepping-stone to nibbana. Larry 36447 From: robmoult Date: Wed Sep 15, 2004 11:04pm Subject: Re: 21 questions about Buddhism Hi Catlin, Welcome! Some good questions... Some of my replies may be too brief for you. Feel free to ask for clarification / expansion. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Catalin wrote: > 1) Why do we,nirvana,Buddha,souls,karma,everything,etc. exist (according > to Buddhism)?What is the purpose of life and this world? ===== Buddhism does not articulate a specific purpose for existence. Buddhism describes a set of natural laws that guide our existence. For example, if we do good things, there will be good results - this is the law of kamma. This world exists because conditions support it's existence, not because there is some ultimate purpose behind it. As an analogy, if I hold up a ball and then drop it, the ball will fall. Why will it fall? It will fall because there were conditions (I let go of it) and natural laws (law of gravity); there is no "purpose" in the ball falling. The teachings of the Buddha do have a purpose. The Buddha explained that the purpose of His teachings are help us lead a good life and attain Nibbana. ===== > 2) If nothing really is, then why keep living and not suicide? We can't > really kill ourselves if we really don't exist...Why trying to escape > something that doesn't actually exist? ===== Rebirth is an important part of Buddhism. The nature of our next life will depend on our kamma and our last thought in this life. If we commit suicide, we are doing a bad thing (killing is bad) and our last thought is likely to be confused, filled with anger or last minute craving for continued existence. All this points to an unfortunate rebirth. Suicice doesn't help us, it hurts us. The Buddha explained that a human rebirth is a fortunate and rare experience and we should make the most of it. Buddhists do not belive in a "soul" or any form of permanent self. "Self" is a concept that we apply to a constantly changing set of mental and physical phenomenon. ===== > 3)Why are there miracles in all the worlds religion, some witnessed by > many, even in religions with totally opposed dogmas? ===== Miracles are things that people cannot explain using their understanding of the world. If a pilot were to fly an airplane over a group of people who were still living a stone-age existence, the cavemen would call what they saw "a miracle". In spite of our advanced science, mankind has very little understanding of the mind and the mind is the forerunner of all things. Good actions start with a good mind, bad actions start with a bad mind. ===== > 4)Why do some Buddhist build huge Buddha statues when Buddha was just a > man and didn't demand worshiping? And also why they worship gods not > related to Buddhism (from popular mythology) when Buddha said we don't > need Gods? ===== Statues were added to Buddhism by the Greeks a few hundred years after the Buddha (I prefer to call them images, because a statue is a representation when you know what the subject looked like). Many Buddhist schools also include images of Bodisattas (Buddhas-to-be). When we bow down in front of the images, we are not worshiping the images, we are calling to mind the qualities of the Buddha or Bodhisatta. ===== > 5)Why do some people from some schools pray for help from the Buddha? > Isn't Buddha in nirvana away from our words? ===== You are correct that the Buddha cannot help us. The power is in our own minds. Reflecting on the qualities of the Buddha can increase our confidence in the Buddha's teaching. With confidence comes calmness and an improved ability to deal with the problems facing us. Here is an analogy. A tablespoon of salt placed in a glass of water will ruin the taste of the water. A tablespoon of salt placed in a lake will have no impact on the taste. In both cases, the amount of problems (i.e. salt) is the same, but the impact depends on the size of the container (i.e. expansiveness of the mind). Salt happens :-) The openess of the mind is what determines the impact of the problems. ===== > 6)I found this quote: "The 4th Buddhist council (c. 100 AD) - . > Theravada Buddhism does not recognize the authenticity of this council, > and it is sometimes called the "council of HERETICAL monks"." - isn't > Buddhism an tolerant religion? And what about calling some of the > Buddhist ways a LESSER vehicle, or nichiren attitude towards other > branches of Buddhism? etc.. ===== There are three main schools of Buddhism; Theravada, Mahayana and Vajrayana. Theravada focus on the oldest Buddhist texts. Mahayana expand their focus to include many later writings by others. Vajrayana is the Tibetan tradtion (Dali Lama). Mahayana split from the Theravada quite early (about 100 years after the Buddha) over issue of fine-tuning the rules for monks (Theravada monks said "NO", Mahayana monks said "YES"). After that, the Mahayana monks held their own councils. The term, "HERETICAL" may sound strong, but in reality there has never been any bad blood between the various schools of Buddhism. There has never been any conflicts in the name of Buddhism. When travelling, a Theravada monk would be welcome to stay at a Mahayana monastery. I know very little about Nichiren, but from what little I know, it seems not to have much in common with Buddhism (Theravada, Mahayana or Vajrayana). They may call themselves "Buddhists" but I do not know on what basis they do so. ===== > 7)How can different ENLIGHTENED persons have different opinions about > what the truth is and what is the best path to get there? If someone > really becomes enlightened shouldn't he be able to see which one of the > schools of Buddhism is the right one and guide people there? And how can > enlightened people see the world in different ways when they should know > the same truth? ===== At a high-level, all enlighened persons will agree that the noble eightfold path leads to enlightenment (Theravada, Mahayana and Vajrayana agree on this). However, the best way to follow the path will depend on one's accumulations. Some focus on faith. Some focus on rites and rituals. Some focus on wisdom. ===== > 8)In Mahayana people take vows not to obtain nirvana and help other > first...how can someone help someone else attain something that he > doesn't have and he doesn't actually experienced for himself that the > path he teaches is the good path? This reminds me about "If a blind man > leads a blind man, both will fall into a pit." Isn't a better way to > first attain nirvana like Buddha did and AFTER that help others? ===== According to a commentary, at the time of the Dipankara Buddha, Sumedha the Hermit realized that if he were to become a monk that he would become an Arahant in that life. Sumedha the Hermit also realized that his spiritual faculties (faith, energy, mindfulness, concentration and wisdom) were very strong. Out of compassion for mankind, Sumedha the Hermit decided not to become an Arahant but rather he decided to develop the ten perfections (paramis) so that he could be reborn as a Buddha and spread the Dhamma in a future life. Sumedha the Hermit committed himself to countless rebirths and suffering and he eventually became our Buddha. I teach an Abhidhamma class on Sunday mornings at our local temple. I point my students to what is in the texts (Suttas, Abhidhamma and Vinaya) as the source of wisdom. Though I am not enlightened (far from it), I am helping my students improve their spiritual life. ===== > 9) What is the difference between "attaining nirvana", "attaining > buddhahood","becoming an arahat" and "attaining enlightment"? ===== Nibbana is an object of a state of mind; it is something that one experiences. When conditions support the mind to take Nibbana as object, then one has reached the first stage of sainthood (called a Sotapanna). The fourth (and final) stage of sainthood is called an "Arahant". Arahants have uprooted the deep-rooted desire for continued existence (they also do not aspire to non-existence). When an Arahant passes away , they are not reborn. ===== > 10)If a person (like Buddha) attains nirvana then we does he keep having > desires like eating, breathing, desiring to teach and help others, etc.? > Shouldn't he just disappear or die when he reaches nirvana? And how can > someone reach nirvana without the DESIRE and CRAVING to reach nirvana > and the DESIRE and CRAVING to escape DESIRE and CRAVING? ===== The mental states of a Buddha (or an Arahant) do not create new kamma; they are "functional". Their past kamma still plays out and continues their life, but when the kamma supporting their life expires, they pass away without rebirth. It may seem like a paradox, but the desire to obtain is a hindrance to obtaining. One should view one's practice as one's duty (i.e. the right thing to do). Then, when condtions are appropriate, it will be natural for results to arise. ===== > 11)If when someone dies memories(soul/Atman) also die, then how come > Buddha and others can remember past lives? ===== Buddism does not accept the concept of a soul / atman. When one dies, the physical body falls away but the mind continues with another body. ===== > 12)How can a Lama know the future and predict where he will be reborn? > Knowing future=no free will... ===== One who understands the workings of kamma will understand the conditions which support rebirth. However, the Buddha cautioned that trying to understand the detailed workings of kamma can lead to insanity. Theravada accepts that at close to the time of death, one may catch a glimpse of where one's kamma is taking one. ===== > 13)Doesn't Karma eliminate free will? ===== Kamma is only one of the conditions which determine what happens to us. The decisions that are made are a result of habits or accumulations. There is no "free-will"; a free-will would imply something above the mind, directing the mind. The flow of the mind depends on accumulations. As it flows, accumulations are created or reinforced. Just because there is no free will, this does not imply that the future is pre-determined. If we are unable to know what will happen (because we cannot possibly know all the conditions that might arise or the influence they might have), how can we say that the future is pre-determined? The future arises naturally, without the need for free will, but the label "pre-determined" does not fit. ===== > For example if X hurts Z then X is forced to hurt Z because Z mistakes > from his past lives so the negative karma from Z is transfered to X? > And what if X is just evil and Z is good and was also good in his past > lives , why is he suffering from another cause different than karma? > And if karma decides everything, and every effect has a cause and causes > cannot be created by human beings, isn't that a believe in a > unchangeable destiny and the elimination of free will? ===== When X hurts Z, there are conditions (such as a habit of anger in X) which supported that action. The action of hurting Z will result in more accumulations for X and will create bad kamma for X. There is no issue of "X being forced to hurt Z"; who or what is doing the forcing? After being hurt, Z's reaction will depend on Z's accumulations. Z could react with anger (thereby creating bad kamma for Z). Z could react with attachment if Z is a masochist (thereby creating bad kamma for Z). If Z sees things as they truly are, then being hurt can be a condition for a wholesome state to arise. ===== > 14)Rebirth and karma-where are the proves they exist? They don't seem > more real than the gods of ancient Greece or Santa Clauses... > It is is true that every effect has a cause but there is no prove of the > existence of good and bad outside a particular moral system (and moral > systems can be different, and are in constant changing), so that means > if in you society is bad to be gay then the gay karma is bad and if the > society changes and being gay (for example) is good then also karma is > positive? Who decides what is good and what is bad and how much good and > bad karma should be assigned to a particular deed? Like I said, karma > and rebirth look like pure mythology. ===== You are correct that there is no scientific proof that rebirth and kamma exists. I accept rebirth because I see this as the most natural explanation for things such as inborn talents, tendencies and love at first sight :-) I accept kamma because I conceptually understand that the reason that I am now tying this message can be traced back to countless earlier decisions made (i.e. decision to turn on the computer, decision to read your message, etc.). When I extrapolate from this conceptual understanding, I get the law of kamma. The Buddha taught that there is a moral system that transcends cultures. Specifically: attachment, aversion and delusion are bad while non-attachment, non-aversion and wisdom are good. Again, my personal experience allows me to accept this. ===== > 15)How can we trust personal experiences through meditation and other > Buddhist practices? An schizophrenic or someone who takes LSD or someone > who stayed too much in the sun may meet Santa Claus, then that means > that Santa Claus exists? And some branches of Tibetan Buddhism even use > some weird and questionable methods to attain "truth"... ===== It is important to have a qualified teacher when meditating to help avoid some of the pitfalls. ===== > 16)Why are sects like pure land Buddhism and nichiren Buddhism > (especially SGI) (and even left hand tantra vajrayana Buddhism) > considered as being "Buddhist"? Jainism and some Hindu sects are MUCH > closer to Buddhism than them! ===== Labels are not very important. If a practices leads to attachment, aversion or delusion, then it is bad (even if somebody has decided to call it Buddhism). When somebody practices charity, it does not matter if they call themselves "Christian", "Muslim", "Hindu" or "Buddhist"; they have done a good thing. ===== > 17)Is Buddhism part of the Hindu religion as some Hindus say who also > see Buddha a reincarnations of their God? ===== Many Hindus believe that the Buddha was a reincarnation of one of their Gods (I think it is Vishnu, though I could be wrong). Hinduism adopted this position to absorb Buddhism under their umbrella. A fundamental difference between Buddhism and Hinduism is that Hindus accept the existence of a soul (Atman) while Buddhist refute this. ===== > 18)Can I be a Buddhist without a Buddhist community existing in my city > and country and belonging only in "Internet shanghas" and having only > web sites and groups like this one as teachers? ===== Labels are not important. It doesn't matter what you call yourself. If you go out and practice charity, if you smile at people in the street, if you avoid killing, if you avoid stealing, if you avoid lying, if you avoid sexual misconduct, etc. then you will create good kamma. Certainly one can learn more about the Buddha's teaching using the Internet ("Access to Insight" is an excellent web-site). Many people find that looking at an image of a Buddha helps them to remind themselves of the Buddha's teaching. If that would help you, then get an image (or draw one yourself) and put it up on your wall as a reminder. When the Buddha passed away, He made it clear that he left no successor other than his teachings. I suggest that you read the teachings of the Buddha. ===== > 19) If someones believes in the Buddhist philosophy and way of life but > rejects Buddhist mythology (karma,rebirth,gods,etc.) is he a > Buddhist?For example I see Buddhism paths as a way to reprogram the > brain and lie it to become happy and stop fearing dead (reaching > nirvana), am I a Buddhist(yes,I am a programmer and an engineer :) )? > And I see karma as a moral law: if you hurt someone then that someone > may hurt you but for example if someone kills someone and no one knows > or someones donates huge sums of money without anyone knowing then that > person isn't affected in any good or bad way by any paranormal Karma > force (maybe only his conscience is affected depending of his view of > the world). ===== There is no "initiation" into "becoming a Buddhist". There is nothing corresponding to a baptism in the Christian church. Call yourself what you will. Make an effort to study the teachings of the Buddha. Do not close your mind to what you call "mythology"; you may find yourself coming to accept some of it after some time of reflection. ===== > 20)Where can I find all the pali canon for download (in English) and > also the main writings of the other main Buddhism schools (Zen, > Tibetan,Tendai,Pure Land, etc.)?And also a guide with the names of these > writings (for example "The pali Canon contains the sutras named > X,Y,...")and what they contain and what is their importance in different > schools(for example" the pali canon contains sutra X which is important > for the Z school but unimportant for the A schools"). I found some > collections of e-books but I don't know which belongs to pali canons and > which to other schools and which is more important and which is less > important to study. ===== For Theravada, I would go to "Access to Insight". I know of no good comparative site. ===== > 21)Where are the best places on the Internet to place questions like these? ===== This is the best place on the Internet :-) ===== > > I hope you will forgive my bad English and don't find any of my > questions offensive. If this is not the right place to put these > questions then I am sorry. > > Catalin > > PS: I chose to post to these 5 groups because from all the Buddhist > groups from Yahoo they seem most active. I again apologize if I broke > any rule but I don't know where else could I ask these questions. ===== Metta, Rob M :-) 36448 From: plnao Date: Thu Sep 16, 2004 0:44am Subject: Re: [dsg] 'Cetasikas' study corner12-Introduction(i) Hello all As Herman said, thanks Sarah for feeding material for this. I'm itching all over in anticipation of getting into the universals. This is craving, clinging to books and idea, I know - but clinging to a wholesome activity (mental development) is better than clinging to baseball statistics like I was doing this time last year. (But the playoffs are coming soon.) I would like to put two passages side by side: First, Nina, from the introduction to "Cetasikas" posted by Sarah. > The study of cetasikas will help us to have more understanding of > the intricate operations of the mind, of citta and cetasikas. It will help > us to understand in theory that citta and cetasikas act according to their > own conditions, and that an abiding agent who could direct mental > activities is not to be found. The study of the realities as taught by the > Buddha can remind us to investigate them when they appear in our daily > life. Theoretical understanding of the truth is a foundation for the > development of direct under-standing of realities as they present > themselves one at a time through the six doors, through the senses and the > mind. and now Howard, from a recent post: >But we *must* look at phenomena, looking with the intention of >discovering their fundamental nature of emptiness: being merely >impermanent, undependable, impersonal, dependent and coreless wisps, in >order to let go of them all and to see through them, acquiring the "view >from nibbana" - the indescribable suchness of reality. Both wonderful descriptions (except for "whisps" maybe!) of what we are up to when we have right effort. Personally speaking, I would find it impossible to do the latter at this point on the path. I find Abhidhamma and the study of things like cetasikas gives me an intellectual foothold, an explicit path to follow that I need at this point. If I were to start *looking* into emptiness at this point, I don't know if there would be any degree of right understanding. But I know this is not the case for Howard, and it is energizing to read the words he wrote, just as it energizing in a more - in my case- confidence-boosting way to read Nina's words. The danger is that I could become attached to terminology, cling to the delicious intellectual aspect of Abhidhamma and not *look* (or listen, taste, smell, touch and be aware of mind objects) enough. Fortunately I will always have good Dhamma friends in this group to remind me to be look at what is happening at the moment. I think I should soon choose a sign off line, something from K Sujin about what is here now! Just passing this on in appreciation for this wonderful online sangha. Very grateful for it having coming along into my life. Metta, Phil 36449 From: kenhowardau Date: Thu Sep 16, 2004 0:48am Subject: [dsg] Re: CSC 4-[Sarah: "citta is..."] Hi Sarah, Thanks for answering this question from Dan: ------------------- D: > Is there a way to read it as saying that the > agent/instrument/activity are really three ways > to "experience 'citta'" rather than describe it? ... S: No. When there is an understanding of the characteristic of citta, there isn't any question or issue of different ways as I see it. -------------------- I can understand that, but I didn't realise dhammas could be known only by their characteristics. Just to clarify: Are their functions, manifestations and proximate causes never directly experienced? Metta, Ken H 36450 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Sep 16, 2004 0:55am Subject: Re: [dsg] "... as parasites a tree." ??? Hi Howard, It’s kind of you to clarify, but please know that I never take anything you say amiss -- even when it’s a sensitive topic or you make your points known clearly, it’s never a personal issue. We’re just discussing the Dhamma. Just a couple of comments below: --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Howard: > > My questioning is what material constitutes the Buddha word, and I question it out of respect for the Buddha. And, yes, I will question. If I didn't question, I would be a fool. Saddha to me is confidence and trust, but not blind faith.<< ------------------------------------------------- .... S: I agree and I think such questioning is very important for us all. Certainly my approach (Nina's, Jon's and everyone else's I know) is also one of questioning, considering, checking and so on. As you say, blind faith is useless and we haven't all given up other religions, philosophies, understandings in order to take on a new set blindly. ... H: > I'd just like to clarify a couple points about the foregoing. > One is that my questioning is not a questioning of the Buddha's > knowledge, which I have great confidence in, but rather is a questioning > of what passed on material really represents the Buddha word. ... S: Understood. Of course the Jataka verses and stories date back to early days and they can be seen in some of the earliest cave paintings we’ve visited in India. I don’t believe there is any evidence of corruption, but I appreciate yours and others’ misgivings. In my own experience, sometimes the aspects of the Teachings I find most difficult to accept initially are the very same I learn most from, but that’s just my experience. ... H:> The other point is that I was talking only about myself when I > said "If I didn't question, I would be a fool." <...> > Some of us may be more likely to question certain > matters, and others more likely to question other matters. I want you to know that in saying that I would be a fool if I did not question, I was not in the slightest casting any aspersions on you. (I want to rule >that out as a possible interpretation! :-)< ... S: What you say is true (which aspects we question and so on) and I didn’t for an instant read your message as indirectly insinuating anything about my foolish nature, which wouldn’t be your way at all, I know, (even though it would be quite true;-). As we’re talking about fools and harsh language, however, another dilemma in Qus of King Milinda may also be relevant to our discussion (again without casting any aspersions on you or anyone else here :-). I’ll quote it this time as I think it should only be a page in length: http://www.sacred-texts.com/bud/sbe35/index.htm **** [THE FOOLISH FELLOW.] 15. [170] 'Venerable Nâgasena, it was said by the Elder Sâriputta, the commander of the faith: "The Tathâgata, brethren, is perfect in courtesy of speech. There is no fault of speech in the Tathâgata concerning which he should have to take care that no one else should know it ." And on the other hand the Tathâgata, when promulgating the first Pârâgika on the occasion of the offence of Sudinna the Kalanda , addressed him with harsh words, calling him a useless fellow . And that Elder, on being so called, terrified with the fear of his teacher , and overcome with remorse, was unable to comprehend the Excellent Way . Now if the first statement be correct, the allegation that the Tathâgata called Sudinna the Kalanda a useless fellow must be false. But if that be true, then the first statement must be false. [171] This too is a double-pointed problem now put to you, and you have to solve it.' 16. 'What Sâriputta the Elder said is true, O king. And the Blessed One called Sudinna a useless fellow on that occasion. But that was not out of rudeness of disposition , it was merely pointing out the real nature (of his conduct) in a way that would do him no harm . And what herein is meant by "pointing out the real nature." If any man, O king, in this birth does not attain to the perception of the Four Truths, then is his manhood (his being born as a man) in vain , but if he acts differently he will become different. Therefore is it that he is called a useless fellow . And so the Blessed One addressed Sudinna the Kalanda with words of truth, and not with words apart from the facts.' 17. 'But, Nâgasena, though a man in abusing another speaks the truth, still we should inflict a small fine upon him. For he is guilty of an offence, inasmuch as he, although for something real, abused him by the use of words that might lead to a breach (of the peace) .' 'Have you ever heard, O king, of a people bowing down before, or rising up from their seats in respect for, or showing honour to, or bringing the complimentary presents (usually given to officials) to a criminal?' 'No, if a man have committed a crime of whatever sort or kind, if he be really worthy of reproof and punishment, they would rather behead him, or torture him , or bind him with bonds, or put him to death, or deprive him of his goods .' 'Did then the Blessed One, O king, act with justice or not?' 'With justice, Sir, and in a most fit and proper way. And when, Nâgasena, they hear of it the world of men and gods will be made tender of conscience, and afraid of falling into sin, struck with awe at the sight of it, and still more so when they themselves associate with wrong-doers, or do wrong.' 18. [172] 'Now would a physician, O king, administer pleasant things as a medicine in a case where all the humours of the body were affected, and the whole frame was disorganised and full of disease?' 'No. Wishing to put an end to the disease he would give sharp and scarifying drugs.' 'In the same way, O king, the Tathâgata bestows admonition for the sake of suppressing all the diseases of sin. And the words of the Tathâgata, even when stern, soften men and make them tender. Just as hot water, O king, softens and makes tender anything capable of being softened, so are the words of the Tathâgata, even when stern, yet as full of benefit, and as full of pity as the words of a father would be to his children. Just, O king, as the drinking of evil-smelling decoctions, the swallowing of nasty drugs, destroys the weaknesses of men's bodies, so are the words of the Tathâgata even when stern, bringers of advantage and laden with pity. And just, O king, as a ball of cotton falling on a man raises no bruise, so do the words of the Tathâgata, even when stern, do no harm.' 'Well have you made this problem clear by many a simile, Very good, Nâgasena! That is so, and I accept it as you say.' [End of the dilemma as to the Buddha's harsh words to Sudinna.] ***** S: Howard, I know you’ll say that comments about being a fool are not in the same category at all as the quotes given from the Jataka tale, but I hope you find it interesting in any case and also a reminder to us when we find any other Dhamma truths sounding ‘harsh’ which may be ‘merely pointing out the real nature...’. Thank you again for your kind follow up notes and consideration. Metta, Sarah ====== 36451 From: Sukinderpal Singh Narula Date: Thu Sep 16, 2004 0:56am Subject: Re: Theory and Practice _Sukin & Htoo Dear Htoo, Htoo: > Thank you very much for your full response. Your message makes me > untired. It made me untired. After these three sentences you will see > that I used 'makes' in the second sentence. Sukin: I admire your patience, a good example for me. Thank you. :-) > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: Dear Sukin, I was not assessing that monk. I was just > retrospectively making comments. He passed away long time ago. And I > was not as learned as I have been now. I just mentioned this because > those who seem to attain higher nana Sukin: I realize that, and I don't think that you are the kind of person who will want to do it. ----------------------------------------- Htoo: > The monk in my story did not mention anything like declaration or > announcement. What I had heard was that he did not lie flat on his > back in his final years ( more than 13 years not lying on bed ). He > did that but not as a ritual. Sukin: I wonder what the significance of this is?! What are your own thoughts? > ------------------------------------------------------ Htoo: > I remember that the Venerable preached that, 'When you are on board > like a ship or boat or ferry, you have to note 'moving..moving, > sitting..sitting'. He preached that for lay people. > > Whenever a person reaches a state they would suggest others to > practise. Later on they move to higher level and this urge changes a bit. Sukin: I will come back to this later in the post. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Sukin: > > Do you think it is possible that the conditions are such that some > person will remain calm and peaceful for a long time, but the kilesas > are in fact still quite intact? And when they expound the dhamma, it > comes from sanna more than from panna? > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > > Here I have to express in two different forms. One is my own response > that comes from my wisdom. The second is from my learned knowledge. > > 1. I do not think it is possible that the conditions are such that > some person will remain calm and so and so. I do not think they > expound the dhamma coming from their sanna. > 2. Pure jhana without development of any vipassana nana can calm down > kilesa as long as jhana overwhelms. They will be calm and peaceful > for a long time. But kilesa are still there as anusaya. Here > exposition of the dhamma may well be sanna or may be partly from > panna. > > I stick to 1 while 2 is still possible. Sukin: I had the following in mind. 1. The story in the Tipitaka about the mistress and the maid. To me, the conditions around her were such that she had no cause to feel any anger or irritation until her maid decided one day, to test her. 2. A certain monk may have the accumulations to follow the Vinaya strictly, but not necessarily with any understanding. Furthermore, the environment (temple) may be in tune with his accumulations. 3. Someone may study the Dhamma as he would any worldly subject. In which case he may be able to remember and recall concepts within the Teachings quite appropriately to the situation. But this does not necessarily involve any deep understanding of any one of those concepts. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > > You will notice that I wrote in different styles. Some say that I am > writing impossible practice. I do not think so. > > As soon as we wake up in the bed and as soon as consciousness > orientates that we are still alive and come to know the world again > after a long rest of sleep, mahasatipatthana can be started. > > This can go through out the day till we are back again in the bed > just before going into sleep again. > > For me, I am not boasting, I sometimes do practise even when I am > speaking to someone for some time. That is knowing of my thinking, my > intension, my word searching, my lip movement and so on. Here I just > include 'my' for communication otherwise Sarah may smile. Sukin: I do believe that you are not boasting, I think that you are very sincere. But allow me to express my view about the development of sati and panna. Firstly, there is no control as to what concepts will be the object of citta at the moment. There is no control as to what experience through which doorway will condition a reminder about the significance of developing sati and panna. Depending on the conditions, but mostly on accumulations, one will have right or wrong thoughts if not a moment of satipatthana. One's `thinking' or perception of body and verbal and bodily intimation can become the object of the present moment, however if sati and panna has been well developed, satipatthana can arise there and then. But there is no guarantee that this would happen. Also I believe it possible that when sati and panna has been much developed, the tendency to mental proliferation has been so reduced, that increasingly `concepts' such as the above may replace thoughts on kama and philosophical speculations. But I am not sure of this. If so, however, then I think this is more a `consequence' of developed wisdom than a recommended practice to adopt. And this I think may be where you are, I hope! ;-) ------------------------------------------------------ Htoo: > Yes. Mahasatipatthana should be our part of life and it should be in > daily life. > > But we should not abandon the formal practice. When I write this, I > am thinking that you may disagree. Sukin: Yes, I do disagree. As I said above, I don't think there can be any control as to what will be the object of citta and whether there will be right or wrong view with regard to it. Actually, I have reservation with regard to any `idealistic' attitude about developing Mahasatipatthana even in daily life. I feel this way because it can condition the idea of `self' and `control'. In a day if there is no satipatthana at all, it is good to know this, better than then following some practice and risk having a false idea of achievement and progress. --------------------------------- Htoo: > Once I saw Sujin's writing regarding this. I noticed that Sujin was > clear to express. But pupils took differently. Nina is straight > forward. But cerain pupil is not. Sukin: Can you elaborate? I haven't come to my present position taking K. Sujin or Nina as authority. I do reason, but there is also what I believe to be a degree of experience. But I may be deluded, so please continue with this discussion with me; I may come to adopt your viewpoint ;-). -------------------------------------- Htoo: > I would say mahasatipatthana should be in our daily life. On the > other hand, formal practice should be practised. > > The Buddha stayed in phalasamapatti. Great arahats stayed in > phalasamapatti. Many arahats stayed in phalasamapatti. Some arahats > sometimes stayed in nirodha sapamatti. Sukin: But is this the same as "formal practice"? ------------------------------------------- Htoo: > If someone is aversive to formal practice, I would feel pity for him > or her. Sukin: It is actually none of my business. But I do admit feeling some aversion sometime. But not with regard to doing it myself, I just don't believe in the concept, but towards those who encourage it, especially who choose to disregard pariyatti. ------------------------------------------------ Htoo: > But clinging to formal practice without full understanding of > implication may sound like rituals as Sujin said. Sukin: This is obvious, but I think any idea of `doing' which disregards in principle, that there is a dhamma arising "NOW" to be known, is silabattaparamasa. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- It is time to go and pick up my son from school. So please excuse my leaving out the rest of you post. And please keep going with this discussion. :-) Metta, Sukin. 36452 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Sep 16, 2004 1:04am Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner13-Introduction(j) Dear Friends, Cetasikas by Nina van Gorkom. http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== Introduction [contd] ***** Right understanding of nama and rupa is developed by being mindful of them when they appear. Sati, mindfulness or awareness, is a wholesome cetasika which is non-forgetful, aware, of the reality which appears at the present moment. At the very moment of sati the reality which appears can be investigated, and in this way right understanding will gradually develop. Eventually nama and rupa will be seen as they are: as impermanent and non-self. We should not forget that also awareness, sati, is a cetasika arising because of its own conditions. If we have understood this we shall not force its arising or try to direct it to particular objects, such as this or that cetasika. The study of the Abhidhamma can prevent wrong ideas about the development of the Buddha's path. The realities of our life, including out defilements, should be understood as not self. So long as we take defilements for self or "mine" they cannot be eradicated. The direct understanding of realities as non-self is the condition for not doing evil, for cultivating the good and for purifying one's mind. ***** [Introduction to be continued] Metta, Sarah ====== 36453 From: robmoult Date: Thu Sep 16, 2004 1:28am Subject: Re: 21 questions about Buddhism Hi Catalin, Ooops... so sorry for misspelling your name :-) Metta, Rob M :-) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" wrote: > Hi Catlin, > > Welcome! Some good questions... Some of my replies may be too brief > for you. Feel free to ask for clarification / expansion. > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Catalin wrote: > > 1) Why do we,nirvana,Buddha,souls,karma,everything,etc. exist > (according > > to Buddhism)?What is the purpose of life and this world? > > ===== > > Buddhism does not articulate a specific purpose for existence. > Buddhism describes a set of natural laws that guide our existence. > For example, if we do good things, there will be good results - this > is the law of kamma. > > This world exists because conditions support it's existence, not > because there is some ultimate purpose behind it. As an analogy, if > I hold up a ball and then drop it, the ball will fall. Why will it > fall? It will fall because there were conditions (I let go of it) > and natural laws (law of gravity); there is no "purpose" in the ball > falling. > > The teachings of the Buddha do have a purpose. The Buddha explained > that the purpose of His teachings are help us lead a good life and > attain Nibbana. > > ===== > > > 2) If nothing really is, then why keep living and not suicide? We > can't > > really kill ourselves if we really don't exist...Why trying to > escape > > something that doesn't actually exist? > > ===== > > Rebirth is an important part of Buddhism. The nature of our next > life will depend on our kamma and our last thought in this life. If > we commit suicide, we are doing a bad thing (killing is bad) and our > last thought is likely to be confused, filled with anger or last > minute craving for continued existence. All this points to an > unfortunate rebirth. Suicice doesn't help us, it hurts us. The > Buddha explained that a human rebirth is a fortunate and rare > experience and we should make the most of it. > > Buddhists do not belive in a "soul" or any form of permanent > self. "Self" is a concept that we apply to a constantly changing set > of mental and physical phenomenon. > > ===== > > > 3)Why are there miracles in all the worlds religion, some > witnessed by > > many, even in religions with totally opposed dogmas? > > ===== > > Miracles are things that people cannot explain using their > understanding of the world. If a pilot were to fly an airplane over > a group of people who were still living a stone-age existence, the > cavemen would call what they saw "a miracle". In spite of our > advanced science, mankind has very little understanding of the mind > and the mind is the forerunner of all things. Good actions start > with a good mind, bad actions start with a bad mind. > > ===== > > > 4)Why do some Buddhist build huge Buddha statues when Buddha was > just a > > man and didn't demand worshiping? And also why they worship gods > not > > related to Buddhism (from popular mythology) when Buddha said we > don't > > need Gods? > > ===== > > Statues were added to Buddhism by the Greeks a few hundred years > after the Buddha (I prefer to call them images, because a statue is > a representation when you know what the subject looked like). Many > Buddhist schools also include images of Bodisattas (Buddhas-to- be). > When we bow down in front of the images, we are not worshiping the > images, we are calling to mind the qualities of the Buddha or > Bodhisatta. > > ===== > > > 5)Why do some people from some schools pray for help from the > Buddha? > > Isn't Buddha in nirvana away from our words? > > ===== > > You are correct that the Buddha cannot help us. The power is in our > own minds. Reflecting on the qualities of the Buddha can increase > our confidence in the Buddha's teaching. With confidence comes > calmness and an improved ability to deal with the problems facing us. > > Here is an analogy. A tablespoon of salt placed in a glass of water > will ruin the taste of the water. A tablespoon of salt placed in a > lake will have no impact on the taste. In both cases, the amount of > problems (i.e. salt) is the same, but the impact depends on the size > of the container (i.e. expansiveness of the mind). Salt happens :- ) > The openess of the mind is what determines the impact of the > problems. > > ===== > > > 6)I found this quote: "The 4th Buddhist council (c. 100 AD) - . > > Theravada Buddhism does not recognize the authenticity of this > council, > > and it is sometimes called the "council of HERETICAL monks"." - > isn't > > Buddhism an tolerant religion? And what about calling some of the > > Buddhist ways a LESSER vehicle, or nichiren attitude towards other > > branches of Buddhism? etc.. > > ===== > > There are three main schools of Buddhism; Theravada, Mahayana and > Vajrayana. Theravada focus on the oldest Buddhist texts. Mahayana > expand their focus to include many later writings by others. > Vajrayana is the Tibetan tradtion (Dali Lama). Mahayana split from > the Theravada quite early (about 100 years after the Buddha) over > issue of fine-tuning the rules for monks (Theravada monks said "NO", > Mahayana monks said "YES"). After that, the Mahayana monks held > their own councils. The term, "HERETICAL" may sound strong, but in > reality there has never been any bad blood between the various > schools of Buddhism. There has never been any conflicts in the name > of Buddhism. When travelling, a Theravada monk would be welcome to > stay at a Mahayana monastery. > > I know very little about Nichiren, but from what little I know, it > seems not to have much in common with Buddhism (Theravada, Mahayana > or Vajrayana). They may call themselves "Buddhists" but I do not > know on what basis they do so. > > ===== > > > 7)How can different ENLIGHTENED persons have different opinions > about > > what the truth is and what is the best path to get there? If > someone > > really becomes enlightened shouldn't he be able to see which one > of the > > schools of Buddhism is the right one and guide people there? And > how can > > enlightened people see the world in different ways when they > should know > > the same truth? > > ===== > > At a high-level, all enlighened persons will agree that the noble > eightfold path leads to enlightenment (Theravada, Mahayana and > Vajrayana agree on this). However, the best way to follow the path > will depend on one's accumulations. Some focus on faith. Some focus > on rites and rituals. Some focus on wisdom. > > ===== > > > 8)In Mahayana people take vows not to obtain nirvana and help > other > > first...how can someone help someone else attain something that he > > doesn't have and he doesn't actually experienced for himself that > the > > path he teaches is the good path? This reminds me about "If a > blind man > > leads a blind man, both will fall into a pit." Isn't a better way > to > > first attain nirvana like Buddha did and AFTER that help others? > > ===== > > According to a commentary, at the time of the Dipankara Buddha, > Sumedha the Hermit realized that if he were to become a monk that he > would become an Arahant in that life. Sumedha the Hermit also > realized that his spiritual faculties (faith, energy, mindfulness, > concentration and wisdom) were very strong. Out of compassion for > mankind, Sumedha the Hermit decided not to become an Arahant but > rather he decided to develop the ten perfections (paramis) so that > he could be reborn as a Buddha and spread the Dhamma in a future > life. Sumedha the Hermit committed himself to countless rebirths and > suffering and he eventually became our Buddha. > > I teach an Abhidhamma class on Sunday mornings at our local temple. > I point my students to what is in the texts (Suttas, Abhidhamma and > Vinaya) as the source of wisdom. Though I am not enlightened (far > from it), I am helping my students improve their spiritual life. > > ===== > > > 9) What is the difference between "attaining nirvana", "attaining > > buddhahood","becoming an arahat" and "attaining enlightment"? > > ===== > > Nibbana is an object of a state of mind; it is something that one > experiences. When conditions support the mind to take Nibbana as > object, then one has reached the first stage of sainthood (called a > Sotapanna). The fourth (and final) stage of sainthood is called > an "Arahant". Arahants have uprooted the deep-rooted desire for > continued existence (they also do not aspire to non-existence). When > an Arahant passes away , they are not reborn. > > ===== > > > 10)If a person (like Buddha) attains nirvana then we does he keep > having > > desires like eating, breathing, desiring to teach and help others, > etc.? > > Shouldn't he just disappear or die when he reaches nirvana? And > how can > > someone reach nirvana without the DESIRE and CRAVING to reach > nirvana > > and the DESIRE and CRAVING to escape DESIRE and CRAVING? > > ===== > > The mental states of a Buddha (or an Arahant) do not create new > kamma; they are "functional". Their past kamma still plays out and > continues their life, but when the kamma supporting their life > expires, they pass away without rebirth. It may seem like a paradox, > but the desire to obtain is a hindrance to obtaining. One should > view one's practice as one's duty (i.e. the right thing to do). > Then, when condtions are appropriate, it will be natural for results > to arise. > > ===== > > > 11)If when someone dies memories(soul/Atman) also die, then how > come > > Buddha and others can remember past lives? > > ===== > > Buddism does not accept the concept of a soul / atman. When one > dies, the physical body falls away but the mind continues with > another body. > > ===== > > > 12)How can a Lama know the future and predict where he will be > reborn? > > Knowing future=no free will... > > ===== > > One who understands the workings of kamma will understand the > conditions which support rebirth. However, the Buddha cautioned that > trying to understand the detailed workings of kamma can lead to > insanity. Theravada accepts that at close to the time of death, one > may catch a glimpse of where one's kamma is taking one. > > ===== > > > 13)Doesn't Karma eliminate free will? > > ===== > > Kamma is only one of the conditions which determine what happens to > us. The decisions that are made are a result of habits or > accumulations. There is no "free-will"; a free-will would imply > something above the mind, directing the mind. The flow of the mind > depends on accumulations. As it flows, accumulations are created or > reinforced. Just because there is no free will, this does not imply > that the future is pre-determined. If we are unable to know what > will happen (because we cannot possibly know all the conditions that > might arise or the influence they might have), how can we say that > the future is pre-determined? The future arises naturally, without > the need for free will, but the label "pre-determined" does not fit. > > ===== > > > For example if X hurts Z then X is forced to hurt Z because Z > mistakes > > from his past lives so the negative karma from Z is transfered to > X? > > And what if X is just evil and Z is good and was also good in his > past > > lives , why is he suffering from another cause different than > karma? > > And if karma decides everything, and every effect has a cause and > causes > > cannot be created by human beings, isn't that a believe in a > > unchangeable destiny and the elimination of free will? > > ===== > > When X hurts Z, there are conditions (such as a habit of anger in X) > which supported that action. The action of hurting Z will result in > more accumulations for X and will create bad kamma for X. > > There is no issue of "X being forced to hurt Z"; who or what is > doing the forcing? After being hurt, Z's reaction will depend on Z's > accumulations. Z could react with anger (thereby creating bad kamma > for Z). Z could react with attachment if Z is a masochist (thereby > creating bad kamma for Z). If Z sees things as they truly are, then > being hurt can be a condition for a wholesome state to arise. > > ===== > > > 14)Rebirth and karma-where are the proves they exist? They don't > seem > > more real than the gods of ancient Greece or Santa Clauses... > > It is is true that every effect has a cause but there is no prove > of the > > existence of good and bad outside a particular moral system (and > moral > > systems can be different, and are in constant changing), so that > means > > if in you society is bad to be gay then the gay karma is bad and > if the > > society changes and being gay (for example) is good then also > karma is > > positive? Who decides what is good and what is bad and how much > good and > > bad karma should be assigned to a particular deed? Like I said, > karma > > and rebirth look like pure mythology. > > ===== > > You are correct that there is no scientific proof that rebirth and > kamma exists. > > I accept rebirth because I see this as the most natural explanation > for things such as inborn talents, tendencies and love at first > sight :-) > > I accept kamma because I conceptually understand that the reason > that I am now tying this message can be traced back to countless > earlier decisions made (i.e. decision to turn on the computer, > decision to read your message, etc.). When I extrapolate from this > conceptual understanding, I get the law of kamma. > > The Buddha taught that there is a moral system that transcends > cultures. Specifically: attachment, aversion and delusion are bad > while non-attachment, non-aversion and wisdom are good. Again, my > personal experience allows me to accept this. > > ===== > > > 15)How can we trust personal experiences through meditation and > other > > Buddhist practices? An schizophrenic or someone who takes LSD or > someone > > who stayed too much in the sun may meet Santa Claus, then that > means > > that Santa Claus exists? And some branches of Tibetan Buddhism > even use > > some weird and questionable methods to attain "truth"... > > ===== > > It is important to have a qualified teacher when meditating to help > avoid some of the pitfalls. > > ===== > > > 16)Why are sects like pure land Buddhism and nichiren Buddhism > > (especially SGI) (and even left hand tantra vajrayana Buddhism) > > considered as being "Buddhist"? Jainism and some Hindu sects are > MUCH > > closer to Buddhism than them! > > ===== > > Labels are not very important. If a practices leads to attachment, > aversion or delusion, then it is bad (even if somebody has decided > to call it Buddhism). When somebody practices charity, it does not > matter if they call themselves "Christian", "Muslim", "Hindu" > or "Buddhist"; they have done a good thing. > > ===== > > > 17)Is Buddhism part of the Hindu religion as some Hindus say who > also > > see Buddha a reincarnations of their God? > > ===== > > Many Hindus believe that the Buddha was a reincarnation of one of > their Gods (I think it is Vishnu, though I could be wrong). Hinduism > adopted this position to absorb Buddhism under their umbrella. A > fundamental difference between Buddhism and Hinduism is that Hindus > accept the existence of a soul (Atman) while Buddhist refute this. > > ===== > > > 18)Can I be a Buddhist without a Buddhist community existing in my > city > > and country and belonging only in "Internet shanghas" and having > only > > web sites and groups like this one as teachers? > > ===== > > Labels are not important. It doesn't matter what you call yourself. > If you go out and practice charity, if you smile at people in the > street, if you avoid killing, if you avoid stealing, if you avoid > lying, if you avoid sexual misconduct, etc. then you will create > good kamma. Certainly one can learn more about the Buddha's teaching > using the Internet ("Access to Insight" is an excellent web-site). > Many people find that looking at an image of a Buddha helps them to > remind themselves of the Buddha's teaching. If that would help you, > then get an image (or draw one yourself) and put it up on your wall > as a reminder. > > When the Buddha passed away, He made it clear that he left no > successor other than his teachings. I suggest that you read the > teachings of the Buddha. > > ===== > > > 19) If someones believes in the Buddhist philosophy and way of > life but > > rejects Buddhist mythology (karma,rebirth,gods,etc.) is he a > > Buddhist?For example I see Buddhism paths as a way to reprogram > the > > brain and lie it to become happy and stop fearing dead (reaching > > nirvana), am I a Buddhist(yes,I am a programmer and an > engineer :) )? > > And I see karma as a moral law: if you hurt someone then that > someone > > may hurt you but for example if someone kills someone and no one > knows > > or someones donates huge sums of money without anyone knowing then > that > > person isn't affected in any good or bad way by any paranormal > Karma > > force (maybe only his conscience is affected depending of his view > of > > the world). > > ===== > > There is no "initiation" into "becoming a Buddhist". There is > nothing corresponding to a baptism in the Christian church. Call > yourself what you will. Make an effort to study the teachings of the > Buddha. Do not close your mind to what you call "mythology"; you may > find yourself coming to accept some of it after some time of > reflection. > > ===== > > > 20)Where can I find all the pali canon for download (in English) > and > > also the main writings of the other main Buddhism schools (Zen, > > Tibetan,Tendai,Pure Land, etc.)?And also a guide with the names of > these > > writings (for example "The pali Canon contains the sutras named > > X,Y,...")and what they contain and what is their importance in > different > > schools(for example" the pali canon contains sutra X which is > important > > for the Z school but unimportant for the A schools"). I found some > > collections of e-books but I don't know which belongs to pali > canons and > > which to other schools and which is more important and which is > less > > important to study. > > ===== > > For Theravada, I would go to "Access to Insight". I know of no good > comparative site. > > ===== > > > 21)Where are the best places on the Internet to place questions > like these? > > ===== > > This is the best place on the Internet :-) > > ===== > > > > > I hope you will forgive my bad English and don't find any of my > > questions offensive. If this is not the right place to put these > > questions then I am sorry. > > > > Catalin > > > > PS: I chose to post to these 5 groups because from all the > Buddhist > > groups from Yahoo they seem most active. I again apologize if I > broke > > any rule but I don't know where else could I ask these questions. > > ===== > > Metta, > Rob M :-) 36454 From: plnao Date: Thu Sep 16, 2004 1:39am Subject: Re: [dsg] 'Cetasikas' study corner13-Introduction(j) Hello all >We should not forget that also awareness, sati, is a cetasika >arising because of its own conditions. If we have understood this we shall >not force its arising or try to direct it to particular objects, such as >this or that cetasika. Also, that there is no kusala citta without sati. When I first read about "beautiful" cetasikas, my natural tendency was to think "I want to learn how to have a lot of those! I do believe I'm a beautiful cetasika kinda guy!" But it doesn't work that way for us worldlings. The point is to be aware of whatever cetasikas arise, whatever defilements there are. Understanding the conditioned, rare nature of sati will help us to patiently develop our mind. There is no fast route to sati in this lifetime. If I hadn't come across DSG I would have still been trying to force my mind to stick on objects (ie breath) in the mistaken belief that it was sati. It wasn't - it was just self trying (unsuccessfully) to impose martial law of the mind. Not to say that this is the case for other people who meditate and seek jhanas. Of course it can be done in a right way, conditions permitting. In my case the conditions weren't there yet, and I'm grateful to have realized that without wasting a few years or longer of this rare opportunity to study Dhamma. Metta, Phil 36455 From: dighanakha Date: Wed Sep 15, 2004 11:05pm Subject: Re: "... as parasites a tree." ??? TueÊSepÊ14,Ê2004Ê 8:11 am, Sarah Abbott wrote: Hello Sarah. Thanks for posting the valiant defence of Kunala Cuckoo's wild generalizations. Though as you might have expected, there is rather little in it that I can agree with. Nothing remarkable in this, as it's not often that I agree with anybody about anything. Dig >> In the Commentary to the Jataka Ananda the Vulture Dig >> King says: Dig >> "It's not a case of love or hate with womenfolk you see, Dig >> It is for gold they hug a man, as parasites a tree." Dig >> - from the Kunala Jataka Dig >> Is this true? S > Certainly it says this (and the other quotes you gave). S > The Buddha understood human nature and the extent of the S > kilesa (defilements) far better than us. Even in the Kunala S > Jataka verses themselves we read some pretty strong S > language. For a start: S > ".....the Master said, "Surely, Brethren, even when I was in S > an animal form, I knew well the ingratitude, the wiles, the S > wickedness and immorality of women-folk, and at that time so S > far from being in their power I kept them under my control," S > and when by these words he had removed the spiritual S > discontent of these Brethren, the Master held his peace." S > So is this true? Are you asking if it's true that the monks were cured of their spiritual discontent? Since I don't believe that the Buddha taught this Jataka, clearly my answer would be no. For me the whole thing is a work of fiction. Or are you asking if it's true that the Buddha had special insight into the character of women, as claimed above? My belief is that he did. And I would expect anything that he said about women based upon this knowledge to be the truth. But in the Kunala Jataka there is a flood of wild generalizations about women that can easily be checked and shown to be false by observation of the lives and behaviour of actual women. Therefore, if it is true that the Buddha spoke only the truth, and true that he had special insight into women, then the Kunala Jataka cannot be his teaching. On the other hand, if we are going to base our reasoning on the dsg fundamentalist assumption that the Kunala Jataka WAS spoken by the Buddha (because its Mahavihara translator said so), then we shall have to conclude either that the Buddha did not always speak the truth, or that he did not have even the most rudimentary everyday understanding of women, let alone special insight into them. But both of these possibilities are contradicted in the Nikayas. Women's nature would have been known to the Buddha through the sixth of the ten powers of a Tathagata. And being an arahant, he would have spoken only what is factual. And so my verdict is that the Buddha is not guilty of teaching the Kunala Jataka. Something else I would draw your attention to (though it is less probative than the above) is that the Kunala depicts the Bodhisatta as lying. He lies three times when he is seducing the white-robed nun Saccatapavi. But in other commentaries (I think in the Buddhavamsa or the Cariyapitaka Comm) it is stated that a Bodhisatta never violates the fourth precept. He might break the others, but never the fourth. I will continue with your other points later today. Sincerely, Dighanakha Nutcracker _____________________________ Truly, Master Gotama, I am of this persuasion, of this view: 'everything is not pleasing to me.' (Diighanakha Sutta) 36456 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Sep 16, 2004 2:19am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Samatha, Vipassana, Anicca...Nibbana & Discussion ( 01 ) Dear Connie & Htoo, I’m very glad to see Connie joining the discussion. Pls participate more in Htoo's threads so that he no longer says I'm the only one and I'm sure he'll like your comments more;-). I understand and agree with most of what you both say on kamma. However, I believe there is a subtle point about whether all cetana (kamma) can bring results and what I’ve been saying is really just what I understand after going back with the same texts you’ve both been referring to (plus other commentary passages) several times to K.Sujin and gradually appreciating her explanations which of course I don’t do justice to. Just a few last comments before resting my case on this one: --- htootintnaing wrote: > Connie: >Each javana has potential > because of statements like:CMA p201 [Productive (janaka) > kamma] ...Only a kamma that has attained the status of a full course > of action (see section22 below) can perform the function of > producing rebirth linking, but ***all wholesome and unwholesome > kammas without exception can produce results during the course of > existence***. .... S: Note that: a)BB puts this comment under productive (janaka) kamma which we all agree brings result. b) I think the comment of BB’s you have asterisked maybe overstating the case or could be clarified further. Many of his Guide notes are from U Rewata Dhamma’s notes and I don’t see this one supported in the commentary for this section or 22. On the contrary, as I quoted before, under ‘supporting’ kamma, it clarifies some wholesome and unwholesome kamma cannot ‘produce a result by itself’, but can support other results. (see commentary p.174) c)Whilst all kinds of kusala and akusala cittas can bring results as Htoo has stressed and as we read about in many texts, I don’t believe this means that ever kusala and akusala citta has the potential to do so. For example, in D.O., abhisankhara refers to kamma that brings results and all kinds of kusala and akusala cittas are included, but only those that do so are referred to. As you say, all cetana is kamma, but we need to be careful how we use the term perhaps. There are two kinds of kamma as you both understand well. ... C: >All my looking at things accumulates (is kamma) and > becomes/later acts as various conditions for more seeing, liking, > disliking, etc? No single causes or results. .... S: Let’s say the lobha whilst looking accumulates. If a strong enough dose arises, there will be akusala kamma patha (see commentary p177f) which may bring results depending on other conditions including as accumulations. As you say, no single causes, but kamma condition is not the same as decisive support condition. Also, we read about 3 rounds of kamma-vatta, vipaka-vatta and kilesa-vatta. If all kilesa were the same as kamma in terms of result, two rounds would be sufficient, surely? Htoo, you suggested that when kamma patha has effect, it is to great events like storms, floods, fires etc. I don’t quite follow this as I understand kamma to only bring results by way of vipaka and rupas in the body. I assume you mean the vipaka to experience great heat and so on or other so called disasters, like Mogallana’s death. I can’t really add more without checking references, but I understand the results to be at rebirth and subsequently throughout life -the ordinary moments of cakkhuvinnana (seeing consciousness) and so on you refer to. For example, in the commentary again (to Ab.Sangaha), it says: “For as a result of a single kamma, relinking in many births does not occur, but the results in activity [during a lifetime] occur in hundreds and thousands of births. Thus it is said that ‘by giving alms to animals, the good result to be expected is a hundredfold’. (Chris will like this - it gives a ref to M111 255 and Patis 11 72-3 if you wish to check;-)). Anyway, Htoo and Connie, this has been a long on-going issue on DSG and I know I need to reflect further and also to leave it aside when I’m out of my depth as I probably am by now. At first I thought it was a rather minor academic point, but when I hear about people fearing the results of every little bit of lobha or aversion or ignorance in their lives, I realize it has some important practicality as well. Nina may also have more to add. Metta, Sarah p.s Also, Nina, I’m sure you’ve seen it, but some of the same material you are translating from the Vism Tika is covered here in ch 5 of the commentary, such as the part about prompted and unprompted kamma and the reflection in the mirror, p.197. ============== 36457 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Sep 16, 2004 2:39am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:Samatha, Vipassana, Anicca...Nibbana & Discussion ( 01 ) Dear Htoo, --- htootintnaing wrote: > Htoo: If anatta is not known, citta on anatta will never arise. Panna > of knowledge that there is anatta is only taught by The Buddha. With > this knowledge when the practitioner attain jhana as he is well calm > he can then clearly see dhamma as it is. After eradication, there is > no more anusaya in jhana of arahats who are Buddhists. But jhanas > attained before The Buddha there were full anusaya behind them. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ... S. Agreed. Different moments of jhana citta and vipassana insight. Arahant has eradicated all anusaya. (Of course, most Buddhists are not arahants, but I'll leave this discussion here;-). Thank you for clarifying. ***** > S: Exactly so and very well explained. This is why we have to clearly > know all kinds of subtle lobha and other kilesa arising after sense > experiences in order to develop samatha and why there cannot be any > highly developed samatha, let alone jhana without a very highly > developed and fine knowledge of these various mental states arising > in daily life. .... > Htoo: Your last paragraph is not clear for me. If you could rephrase > them, I may be able to discuss on your points. .... S: Simply put, if the development of samatha is not 'right' from the beginning with right understanding of how the object brings calmness, what calmness is, what the distinction between subtle lobha and calmness is when they arise, it cannot develop. So rather than discussing access and absorption concentration and jhanas, mostly I think we need to consider questions such as what metta is, how it is different from pleasant feelings about ourselves and others and so on. Same for reflections on death, the Buddha or other daily life objects. Just concentrating on a white kasina for example is most unlikely to be wholesome concentration as I see it. Maybe you need to start a kindergarden series for us here, stressing that all wholesome states arise by conditions, any bhavana has to be with right understanding and not by wrong view and attachment trying to focus or have a special concentration experience. I agreed with your point about the Buddha not following the 'citta for all sattas' and 'sabbannuta nana knows when it attends'. Metta, Sarah p.s You mentioned the translation of some kasina terms in A.Sujin's book. Please check Nina's translation which A.Sujin has approved: http://www.abhidhamma.org/ 'Survey of Paramattha Dhammas'. However, i've also heard her say 'any colour is OK'. Aren't we attached to different colours? ================== 36458 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Sep 16, 2004 2:50am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:Samatha, Vipassana, Anicca...Nibbana & Discussion ( 01 ) Dear Htoo, --- htootintnaing wrote: > Htoo: > > If you are equipped with breathing apparatus and you are put in a > thick glass vaccum, will you be able to hear sound producing outside > of that thick glass vaccum where you are in side? > > Aakaasa as rupa is everywhere. Akasa is not included in rupa kalapa > and they are not counted even though there are akasa among rupa > kalapas. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ... For this and the other points on rupas, I'd just ask you to read the first part of Nina's post to Howard on space (no 36282), also (36312), any of the posts on the same topic in 'Useful Posts' and let me know if you have any further comments. I'm going to leave the rest of this thread too (out of time). Just a passing comment on one part only about the poor man in the operating theatre: > the conducting nerve is already blocked. > > The conditions are there. He has his body parts. He is conscious. > There is touch object repeatedly tapping him. ... I'd say there are no conditions for the body consciousness vipaka cittas to arise and experience the rupas. We know there has to be body-sensitivity as a condition for this as well as the impact of the rupas. This was discussed recently in a Vism segment. You asked about sanna as memory (I just deleted in my haste) - I think 'memory' can be a misleading translation as sanna is so different from our usual understanding of the term (esp. for psychologists;-)). That's another discussion. Have to dash. I greatly appreciate all your responses and points of explanation, Htoo. Many thanks for your contributions and for keeping me on my toes,so to speak. Metta, Sarah ====== 36459 From: htootintnaing Date: Thu Sep 16, 2004 4:35am Subject: Re: 21 questions about Buddhism Dear Catalin, I have been answering your 21 questions at 'SanghaForIndependents'. When they are ready I will let you know. Any further questions are welcome. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing ---------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Catalin wrote: > Hello, > I have a few questions about Buddhism to which I haven't found an > satisfactory answer yet. The questions are not related to each other and > are nor sorted by importance: > > 1) Why do we,nirvana,Buddha,souls,karma,everything,etc. exist (according > to Buddhism)?What is the purpose of life and this world? > 2) If nothing really is, then why keep living and not suicide? We can't > really kill ourselves if we really don't exist...Why trying to escape > something that doesn't actually exist? 36460 From: Date: Thu Sep 16, 2004 0:56am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vis. XIV, 100 and Tiika. Hi, Larry - In a message dated 9/16/04 1:49:44 AM Eastern Daylight Time, LBIDD@w... writes: > Hi Howard, > > H: "The mind door gets to "draw upon" all the other senses in a way. We > "hear" silence through the mind door, and we "see" darkness through the > mind door. All absences are known through the mind door, I believe, but > they differ in that one may be a sound absence, another a sight absence, > etc." > > L: I agree that absences are known through the mind door; so no eye > consciousness is known through the mind door. We could reason that dark > is the absence of light, but don't you experience the dark? When it is > suddenly quiet, don't you experience silence? > ------------------------------------------------- Howard: "Yes" to both of these, but there is more to it, I think. We hear varying levels of sound and we see varying levels of light (I am speaking phenomenologically here). But also, as there is the change from greater sound to lesser sound, there is, with regard to sound intensity, a growing absence (which is a lessening presence), and that growing relative absence, itself, is known by the mind, and, I believe, without thought i.e., nonconceptually. [The same for relative light absences.] ---------------------------------------------------- That suggests to me that> > dark and silence can be objects of sense consciousness. --------------------------------------------------- Howard: Again - I agree that we see varying degrees of light and hear varying degrees of sound, but the detecting of relative absences of light and of sound as such - the relative deprivations - is related but different, and these absences, as such, are mind-door phenomena. I do not believe that we detect brightness as an absence of darkness, but as the presence of light. Likewise, I don't think we detect relative loudness as the absence of silence, but we do detect relative silence as the absence of sound. As far as seeing and hearing are concerned, there are just degrees of visual and auditory intensity, and this is "even handed", but the relation between presence and absence is an assymetrical, mnd-door phenomenon, with presence being the positive reality. This is how I see the matter - except when I flip-flop on it! ;-)) Fortunately, I have no stake I this issue at all, as I think it has little bearing on the question of enlightenment and release, and so I can simply leisurely sit about and brainstorm about it in a fully relaxed way. :-) -------------------------------------------------- > > We might further ask if the 'knowing' of no eye consciousness is in any > way similar to the experience of nibbana in a path moment. I would say > there could well be some similarity if for no other reason than that > this knowing of an absence sounds similar to the immaterial jhanas and I > suspect these jhanas are a near stepping-stone to nibbana. > ---------------------------------------------------- Howard: I think there is a commonality among all absences *as* absences. ---------------------------------------------------- > > Larry > > > ======================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 36461 From: htootintnaing Date: Thu Sep 16, 2004 5:23am Subject: [dsg] Re:Samatha, Vipassana, Anicca...Nibbana & Discussion ( 01 ) > Htoo: Your last paragraph is not clear for me. If you could rephrase them, I may be able to discuss on your points. .... S: Simply put, if the development of samatha is not 'right' from the beginning with right understanding of how the object brings calmness, what calmness is, what the distinction between subtle lobha and calmness is when they arise, it cannot develop. So rather than discussing access and absorption concentration and jhanas, mostly I think we need to consider questions such as what metta is, how it is different from pleasant feelings about ourselves and others and so on. Same for reflections on death, the Buddha or other daily life objects. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Now I catch the point. The same idea as before. Jhana do exist even before The Buddha. They arose because there were right conditions. Even though they did not eradicated, they did know which was good and which was bad. Which was defilement and which was wholesome thing. They did develop jhana even before arising of The Buddha. Siddhattha first approached Alara. After that approached Udaka. These two teacher at least attained all rupa jhanas. They were not taught by The Buddha. But they taught Siddhattha. Within a short period, Bodhisatta attained all 4 rupa jhana and all 4 arupa jhana. But he knew these 8 jhanas were not the way of liberation. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sarah: Just concentrating on a white kasina for example is most unlikely to be wholesome concentration as I see it. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: All jhana kusala cittas do have panna. Who say that there is just concentration? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sarah: Maybe you need to start a kindergarden series for us here, stressing that all wholesome states arise by conditions, any bhavana has to be with right understanding and not by wrong view and attachment trying to focus or have a special concentration experience. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: 'a special concentration'? That is your assumption. I do not know 'a special concentration'. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sarah: I agreed with your point about the Buddha not following the 'citta for all sattas' and 'sabbannuta nana knows when it attends'. Metta, Sarah p.s You mentioned the translation of some kasina terms in A.Sujin's book. Please check Nina's translation which A.Sujin has approved: http://www.abhidhamma.org/ 'Survey of Paramattha Dhammas'. However, i've also heard her say 'any colour is OK'. Aren't we attached to different colours? ================== ---------------------------------------------------------------------- I think I have discussed this matter with Christine. I do not remember the Group. Maybe dhamma-list, or maybe TeachingsOfBuddha. Any colour here needs to be unicolour. Not a mixed colours like (blue+ red + white + green + violet + orange + brown + yellow + black). But nila should be darker colour. It is used in creation of darkness. Black, brown, violet or all colours that approach darkness are all OK. But I am not cling to any colour. I have never seen any monks or bhikkhus or hermits who wear blue robe or green robe which would seem very odd. With Metta, Htoo Naing 36462 From: htootintnaing Date: Thu Sep 16, 2004 5:27am Subject: [dsg] Re:Samatha, Vipassana, Anicca...Nibbana & Discussion ( 01 ) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Dear Htoo, Have to dash. I greatly appreciate all your responses and points of > explanation, Htoo. Many thanks for your contributions and for keeping me > on my toes,so to speak. > > Metta, > > Sarah ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Sarah, This part of discussion is done. With Metta, Htoo Naing 36463 From: Ken O Date: Thu Sep 16, 2004 5:54am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Citta as experiencing, to Dan. From my memory, i remember without light there will be no seeing. So we cant see darkness :). Darkness cannot be compare as a contrast to light. If it is totally dark like in a cave, we cant see anything, there is no such thing as seeing dark. We just dont see :) like a blind man. Just like silence is an absence of sound, it means there is no vibration impinging on the ear sense. As long as there is no vibration we consider it as silence, that is all. Neither does it represent anything that rupas cannot cover. An absence does not implied an anti-rupa :). An absence is can be just space in between. Just like darkness can be also space rupas ok enough for the moment c u pple around Ken O > > > Dark is the absence of light. Silence is the absence of > sound. We can > > experience darkness, can we not? We also can experience silence. > And they are > > distinguishable!! So absences are realities. The question is: > Where > are they > > experienced? I think the correct answer may be "via the mind > door". > (And yet, > > doesn't it seem that one actually SEES darkness? I think so. So > the > matter is > > unclear.) > > > > With metta, > > Howard 36464 From: Dan D. Date: Thu Sep 16, 2004 6:06am Subject: Re: [dsg] Flip-flopping Dear Nina, Trivia for the day: Did you know that if you accidently put your right hand one key to the left of where it is supposed to be on a typewriter, your name comes out "Buba"? In any case, KS's reminder not to confuse thinking and awareness hits right on the mark. Theorizing and rationation too easily strengthen wrong view. Even if we stumble onto a correct conceptual model (unlikely), it is still not samma ditthi because samma ditthi is a correct viewing of reality, not a correct opinion. Dhamma is understood through experiencing, not through logic or word games. Dan 36465 From: plnao Date: Thu Sep 16, 2004 6:06am Subject: Re: [dsg] More comments on Phil's fabric softening posts Hi Sarah Thanks for your comments. You always give me a lot of confidence in Dhamma. Here's a long babble on the topic of eradicating defilements. It might be better not to send it, but it's already written. I know people who don't want to read it will not read much further, so no harm done I guess. >>>K.S. : "Each kind of wholesome deed means actually giving up or elimination of defilements. Kusala which is daana, generosity, is the giving up or elimination of avarice, of clinging to possessions." >>>Phil> So I wonder if K Sujin "Èeach kind of wholesome deed means actually giving up or elimination of defilements" is tilted towards coarse defilements. Well, avarice, which she mentions, is not that coarse, I guess. I'll keep learning more as I read.< .... Sarah: At that moment. When there is daana, no akusala. Nothing finally eliminated except by panna arising with lokuttara cittas. Other kinds of kusala (other than satipatthana) support, but without satipatthana, no eradicating at any level as you say. For this reason, I question some of the comments made in B.Bodhi's article you quoted on how 'works of merit comes first in the process of inner growth' etc. As I wrote:S:>I heard K.Sujin on a tape remind people that only vipassana can eradicate kilesa, not even jhana, much less right speech or action without any panna. Because if "that person is still that person, there is no idea of how to eradicate the idea of self".< Phil: "If that person is still that person, there is no idea of how to eradicate the idea of self." I like that line. I can see that at the subtler levels. But a reading of the following quote suggests that K Sujin might agree with B Bodhi (and the hunch I had) that coarse defilements are eradicated to an important extent through certain kinds of deeds of merit. Here is a quote from "Deeds of Merit." "There are different degrees of eliminating the defilements which condition akusala citta, the citta which is impure. Daana, generosity, the giving away of possessions for the benefit of someone else, is one level of eliminating defilements. Another level is siila, which is the elimination of coarse defilements, of akusala through body and speech. There is also the level of bhaavanaa, mental development, which leads to gradual decreasing the strength of defilements, until they are completely eradicated and will not arise again. (end quote)" Well, on rereading it, it's not saying that crude defilements are eliminated in the intentional way I'm suggesting. I take it back. What was it that B Bodhi said? Let me go get a quote: "When merit is said to "purge and purify the mental continuum," it is so described in reference to its capacity to arrest the surging tide of the defilements which threatens to sweep the mind towards the perilous deep of transgressional action. Only wisdom -- the supramundane wisdom of the noble paths -- can eradicate the defilements at the level of latency, which is necessary if the bonds of existence are to be broken and deliverance attained. But the practice of merit can contribute much towards attenuating their obsessive force and establishing a foothold for wisdom to exercise its liberating function. Wisdom can operate only upon the base of a purified mind; the accumulation of merit purifies the mind; hence merit provides the supporting condition for wisdom." (end quote) Phil: I think this is splendid and puts in words something that I have been incapable of doing. This idea of the practice of merit "attenuating the obsessive force" of defilements which "threaten to sweep the mind towards the perilous deeps of transgressional action." We cannot begin to take even the smallest steps toward developing the kind of wisdom that eradicates at a subtle level if our mind is prone to the constant arising of very crude defilements. We have to clean out the gross matter first, and I think practices that might seem self-driven on the surface can do that. And I think that's what I was talking about with "fabric softener", which is a term I use to refer to feel-good pop Buddhism, and practices such as "doing metta" for oneself. (I don't do it, actually - I find that reflecting on the Buddha, the Dhamma and the Sangha is all the comforting I could possibly want - but I was surprised to see in the brahma-viharas section of Vis that metta for oneself is defended as right practice.) Sarah, when I talk about gross matter, I'm referring to a degree of defilements that I think would be very foreign to someone with your decades on the path. So when I say crude defilements, I mean *#%&# crude though I won't go into details. Now, of course these very crude defilements rise in a conditioned way, and as I learned recently they can reappear when one thinks they are close to defeated. But taking action against them very early on the path can be - I know you don't like this word - effective. There is more room for will power at this stage of dealing with crude defilements than there is with the medium or subtle defilements, I think. Gentle will power, but still will power. It won't take us far on the path, but it can help make sure that we don't start walking on the path with crud all over our shoes. There is still wrong view of self involved here, but there are millions of people reading pop Buddhist books who are benefiting from Dhamma, making progress on "attenuating the obsessive force" of defilements, probably unaware that there is still self at the center of their practices, but benefiting nonetheless. As long as there is this wrong view of self they won't go any further than that ( I should say "we" - I am still in there) but they are doing the work that is necessary to get their house clean, mentally. I can't really explain what I'm talking about, but I wonder if there's a basic condition of mental propriety that is necessary in order to begin the serious practice that will lead to weakening and eventually eradicating medium and even subtler defilements. I remember something in the first or second book in Vis about making the place of meditation suitably clean - about the futility of meditating in a dirty room, or words to that effect. I have a feeling something similar applies to vipassana. Sarah, I'm not really explaining myself clearly. I'm not feeling pressure about figuring out what the difference is between eradicating crude defilements and the subtler forms. I've already forgotten so many important things I've read in the last few weeks. I've printed out lots of messages from Nina and others, and read through them once, and will again. I'm grateful that I realize how central the topic of eradicating defilements is. A year or so ago I would have thought it sounded uptight and moralistic, puritanical. Now I know better. Thanks for your other comments as well. They have been printed out and put in my DSG binder so I might comment on them later. Metta, Phil . 36466 From: Ken O Date: Thu Sep 16, 2004 6:10am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Cetasikas' study corner4-Introduction(a) Hi Phil Simply put that is what Buddha tryign to do all his life, telling us this self that experience is magical, there is no such thing as a self, we make it up all. Then we make it all up that we experience it. There is a citta that is knowing the object or experience the object but there is no self that know that object. So citta is just knowing an object, the rest of feelings, perceptions are all done by cetasikas. With citta, there will no thing that know the object, which means we cant experience anything at all. No seeing bc there is no object. No unpleasant feeling bc there is no object to be unpleasant for vedana to feel. Citta is consider the co-ordinator of all cetasikas, it co-ordinates so that we are able to experience an pleasant sound (an object) etc. Cheers Ken O --- "Dan D." wrote: > > Dear Phil, > I'm having a hard time writing an adequate response to your > question > for a couple of reasons. First, I'm out of practice, and, second, > the > question is enormously difficult -- especially for me, since I have > > only a beginner's understanding of 'citta'. > > 'Citta' is simply the experiencing or cognizing of an object. > People > have an almost irresistable tendency to follow this up with: "Who > (or > what) does the experiencing?" The Theravada answer is that there is > > simply the experience. No 'one' experiences it. There is simply the > > experiencing. > > "Yeah, but...yeah, but..." > > -- Hmmm... As my cousin used to say, "No 'yabbuts' around here!" > > "Yeah, but how can there an experience with no one to experience > it?" > Oh, for goodness sake! Why on earth would it be necessary to posit > a > mystical 'someone' to do the experiencing? There is simply the > experiencing! > > What kinds of experiencing? Abhidhammatha sangaha gives a succint > list of the kinds of experiencing that arise. There are 89 (or 121) > > distinctly different types enumerated. It can be very helpful to > ponder these -- and in the pondering keep a check on the "yabbuts" > all their different manifestations. > > Here, the word 'experiencing' is not the greatest because it does > tend to evoke the response of "who experiences?" and is used so > frequently in English other purposes. In particular, we need a word > > for 'experience at a single moment', and that is how 'citta' is > used. > Reading through the types of cittas, we see things such as seeing- > consciousness and "one [lobha-rooted] consciousness, accompanied by > > joy, associated with wrong view, unprompted." The seeing- > consciousness is simply the registering of a visual object in the > mind. The lobha-rooted cittas are the experiencings (cittas) of > objects (thoughts), colored by different shades (cetasikas) such as > > pleasant feeling (vedana), desire for more pleasure (lobha), and > the > yabbut of 'I like this' (ditthi). > > > > Ph: This brought home to me that I don't *really* know what > cittas > *are*, > > let alone cetasikas. Are cittas agents of knowing, mental > energies, > or what? > > I don't think it can be explained in words in a way that I can > truly > > understand - yet. Understanding will have to gradually arise, as > with anatta > > and nibanna (well, that can never be understood by the mind) and > other tough > > nuts to crack. I can understand how cittas are categorized, how > cetasikas > > differ from one another to a certain degree, but I don't yet > truly > know what > > they are. > > Again, it is helpful to think in terms of bare experiencing, the > types of bare experiencing, how to recognize the different types of > > bare experiencings -- all the time excising the notion of a 'who' > to > do the experiencing. > > > > Ph: This is what I've been thinking recently. But I also > thought > that in > > addition to making the mistake of cogitating about what action is > > good and > > then going to do it but ending up with akusala citta because > there > was > > impure mind lying beneath, we could also get caught up in > thinking > too much > > about whether there were pure intentions or not, and end up > missing > the > > opportunity to do good deeds because we are thinking too much. > All > this > > thinking about thinking about thinking, on my part anyways! But I > > do have > > faith that if we press on in our thinking in the company of good > Dhamma > > friends, the thinking will gradually evaporate and something more > > direct > > will be revealed to the patient mind. > > Well said. I would add that when the roots are simply understood, > the > mind naturally inclines to the 'good deeds'. When the mind is > clear, > there is no confusion or hesitation about taking advantage of the > opportunities to "do good" that arise at every moment. > > Metta, > > Dan > 36467 From: Date: Thu Sep 16, 2004 2:14am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Citta as experiencing, to Dan. Hi, Ken - In a message dated 9/16/04 9:03:58 AM Eastern Daylight Time, ashkenn2k@y... writes: > > From my memory, i remember without light there will be no seeing. So > we cant see darkness :). Darkness cannot be compare as a contrast to > light. If it is totally dark like in a cave, we cant see anything, > there is no such thing as seeing dark. We just dont see :) like a > blind man. Just like silence is an absence of sound, it means there > is no vibration impinging on the ear sense. As long as there is no > vibration we consider it as silence, that is all. Neither does it > represent anything that rupas cannot cover. An absence does not > implied an anti-rupa :). An absence is can be just space in between. > Just like darkness can be also space rupas > > ok enough for the moment > > c u pple around > > Ken O > ================================ However, Ken , is it not so that silence is different from darkness? With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 36468 From: plnao Date: Thu Sep 16, 2004 6:20am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Cetasikas' study corner4-Introduction(a) > Hi Phil Hi Ken O What a nice surprise. Actually today I was wondering where you are. > Simply put that is what Buddha tryign to do all his life, telling us > this self that experience is magical, Magical? Like a fantasy, a fiction, right? Magical makes me think of Ice Capades or Cats or something which are well....I see your point. there is no such thing as a > self, we make it up all. Then we make it all up that we experience > it. There is a citta that is knowing the object or experience the > object but there is no self that know that object. So citta is just > knowing an object, the rest of feelings, perceptions are all done by > cetasikas. With citta, there will no thing that know the object, > which means we cant experience anything at all. Is this a typo? Do you mean "*Without* citta, there will be no thing that know the object, which means we can't experience..." Or do you mean what you wrote "with citta,....*we* can't experience anything at all, meaning "we" as in conventional meaning self? A bit confused. No seeing bc there > is no object. No unpleasant feeling bc there is no object to be > unpleasant for vedana to feel. Citta is consider the co-ordinator of > all cetasikas, it co-ordinates so that we are able to experience an > pleasant sound (an object) etc. > Cheers > Ken Cheers back, Phil 36469 From: Ken O Date: Thu Sep 16, 2004 6:21am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Citta as experiencing, to Dan. Hi Howard Silence is different from darkness conceptually. But it can be the same in rupas. It can be also space performing different function due to our concept craze mind. I hope I am talking sense :) Anyway I am speculating (it is a hunch) there are experts there who could give u the logical explanations. Just wish to make a point that absence is not anti-rupa and neither does it mean it is out of the 24 rupas :) Ken O > ================================ > However, Ken , is it not so that silence is different from > darkness? > > With metta, > Howard > > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, > a bubble > in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering > lamp, a > phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) > 36470 From: Dan D. Date: Thu Sep 16, 2004 6:34am Subject: [dsg] Re: CSC 4-[Sarah: "citta is..."] Dear Sarah, I don't follow you when you write: "many kinds of right view/right understanding (see Vism,beg ch X1V), not just satipatthana, but you're right about mundane and supramundane rt und. in MN117." What I see in the beginning of vism XIV is: "Understanding (pañña) is of many sorts and has various aspects. An answer that attempted to explain it all would accomplish neither its intention nor its purpose, and would, besides, lead to distraction; so we whall confine ourselves to the kind intended here, which is understanding consisting insight knowledge associated with profitable consciousness." There is no indication how the other kinds would consititute "Right view". In particular, I don't see how the beginning of pages of Vism. XIV support any notion of a "conceptual right view." Am I missing something? Dan 36471 From: Dan D. Date: Thu Sep 16, 2004 6:56am Subject: Re: 21 questions...[Herman: "how you will see..."] Dear Herman, You write: > I see karma in the following way. With whatever intention you act in the > world from time to time, so you will perceive the world to act towards > you from time to time. This is a great point, Herman, and it is certainly an aspect of kamma/vipaka. Another aspect is that greed/hatred/delusion tend to produce more greed/hatred/delusion. These states are "suffering" in and of themselves. Another aspect: Suppose a tree falls on your leg. Is this because you were bad in the past? Of course! The bad actions (akusala kamma) keep "you" going, and eventually something "bad" will happen. Dan 36472 From: htootintnaing Date: Thu Sep 16, 2004 7:41am Subject: [dsg] Re: Samatha, Vipassana, Anicca...Nibbana & Discussion ( 01 ) ... > C: >All my looking at things accumulates (is kamma) and > > becomes/later acts as various conditions for more seeing, liking, > > disliking, etc? No single causes or results. ....................................... S: Let's say the lobha whilst looking accumulates. If a strong enough dose arises, there will be akusala kamma patha (see commentary p177f) which may bring results depending on other conditions including as accumulations. As you say, no single causes, but kamma condition is not the same as decisive support condition. Also, we read about 3 rounds of kamma-vatta,vipaka-vatta and kilesa-vatta. If all kilesa were the same as kamma in terms of result, two rounds would be sufficient, surely? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Dear Sarah, could you please explain a little bit on 3 rounds that is kamma-vatta, vipaka-vitta and kilesa-vatta? Vipaka-vatta is unavoidable. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sarah: Htoo, you suggested that when kamma patha has effect, it is to great events like storms, floods, fires etc. I don't quite follow this as I understand kamma to only bring results by way of vipaka and rupas in the body. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I drew out apparent examples. You will surely remember that since you have well prepared and well remembered most of your events,I means that you experienced ( including yourself and others ), there are events come together. They come in a wave form. Even in case of The Buddha Himself there were different days. Some days, even The Buddha had to suffer from condition like famine. There was a time when all people in a region suffered famine. At that time, bhikkhus received a little food and on some days virtually none. They had to crush rice grains and had to bunjati (eat). When there is a storm, all have to suffered. But degrees of suffering differ. That is the worst to just minimum to virtually none. Some time, The Buddha had to stay alone the whole 3 months in forest without any human companions. Sarah, I understand what you refer to. What I am trying to say is there are waves. Waves of good and bad. They happen like circadium rhythm. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sarah: I assume you mean the vipaka to experience great heat and so on or other so called disasters, like Mogallana's death. I can't really add more without checking references, ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Not only disasters but also in daily ordinary life. Kamma is too complicated to fully understand. Right now, you may hear something. That sound arises according to conditions. These again have to coincide with arising vipakas in beings. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sarah: ...but I understand the results ...snip...snip.. expected is a hundredfold'. (Chris will like this -it gives a ref to M111 255 and Patis 11 72-3 if you wish to check;-)). Anyway, Htoo and Connie, this has been a long on-going issue on DSG and I know I need to reflect further and also to leave it aside when I'm out of my depth as I probably am by now. At first I thought it was a rather minoracademic point, but when I hear about people fearing the results of every little bit of lobha or aversion or ignorance in their lives, I realize it has some important practicality as well. Nina may also have more to add. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Good. Yes, there are many to discuss. Nina would add something here. I also hope. With Metta, Htoo Naing 36473 From: htootintnaing Date: Thu Sep 16, 2004 8:31am Subject: Re: Theory and Practice _Sukin & Htoo Ongoing discussion: [ Sukin & Htoo ] Sukin: I admire your patience, a good example for me. Thank you. :-) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I try to be limitless. But sometimes limit arises but I smile immediately and impatience does not come out evidently. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: >Htoo: Dear Sukin, I was not assessing that monk. I was just retrospectively making comments. He passed away long time ago. And I was not as learned as I have been now. I just mentioned this because those who seem to attain higher nana Sukin:I realize that, and I don't think that you are the kind of person who will want to do it. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: No I was not that kind of person. But I have to be very careful these days to be non-judgemental especially when I meet people in different forms. In my story, I was not assessing. What I am talking now is how he was calm. This is just in my memory. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >Htoo: >The monk in my story did not mention anything like declaration or announcement. What I had heard was that he did not lie flat on his back in his final years ( more than 13 years not lying on bed ). He did that but not as a ritual. Sukin: I wonder what the significance of this is?! What are your own thoughts? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I do not have any comment to give on this matter. But I think it might be just a continuation of 'dutinga' which he might have been practising before his final years. We worldly people have instincts. Bhikkhus are human beings. They break one instinct by joining sangha order. Next are food and sleep. I do not say, the monk did not sleep. But lying in bed is, I think, what almost all people of the world will not avoid. I do not want to be judgemental but this is my thought which arises as you asked. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >Htoo: >I remember that the Venerable preached that, 'When you are on board like a ship or boat or ferry, you have to note 'moving..moving, sitting..sitting'. He preached that for lay people...snip.. move to higher level and this urge changes a bit. Sukin: I will come back to this later in the post. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: That's fine. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > Here I have to express in two different forms. One is my own response that comes from my wisdom. The second is from my learned knowledge. 1. I do not think ..snip..coming from their sanna. 2. Pure jhana without development of any vipassana nana can ..snip..may well be sanna or may be partly from panna. >I stick to 1 while 2 is still possible. Sukin: I had the following in mind. 1. The story in the Tipitaka about the mistress and the maid. To me, the conditions around her were such that she had no cause to feel any anger or irritation until her maid decided one day, to test her. 2. A certain monk may have the accumulations to follow the Vinaya strictly, but not necessarily with any understanding. Furthermore, the environment (temple) may be in tune with his accumulations. 3. Someone may study the Dhamma as he would any worldly subject. In which case he may be able to remember and recall concepts within the Teachings quite appropriately to the situation. But this does not necessarily involve any deep understanding of any one of those concepts. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I accept that. You mean direct knowledge? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >Htoo: >You will notice that I wrote in different styles. Some say that I am >writing impossible practice. I do not think so. >As soon as we wake up in the bed and as soon as consciousness ..snip.. Sukin: I do believe that you are not boasting, I think that you are very sincere. But allow me to express my view about the development of sati and panna. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I like these two words. Amara always says these two words. But I would say there is no panna without sati. But there are sati without panna. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: Firstly, there is no control as to what concepts will be the object of citta at the moment. There is no control as to what experience through which doorway will condition a reminder about the significance of developing sati and panna. Depending on the conditions, but mostly on accumulations, one will have right or wrong thoughts if not a moment of satipatthana. One's `thinking' or perception of body and verbal and bodily intimation can become the object of the present moment, however if sati and panna has been well developed, satipatthana can arise there and then. But there is no guarantee that this would happen. Also I believe it possible that when sati and panna has been much developed, the tendency to mental proliferation has been so reduced, that increasingly `concepts' such as the above may replace thoughts on kama and philosophical speculations. But I am not sure of this. If so, however, then I think this is more a `consequence' of developed wisdom than a recommended practice to adopt. And this I think may be where you are, I hope! ;-) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Thanks Sukin. It is nice to talk with you. I agree above. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >Htoo: >Yes. Mahasatipatthana should be our part of life and it should be in >daily life. > But we should not abandon the formal practice. When I write this, I >am thinking that you may disagree. Sukin: Yes, I do disagree. As I said above, I don't think there can be any control as to what will be the object of citta and whether there will be right or wrong view with regard to it. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I know that there is no control. Formal practice I mean sitting in usual position of lotus. The Buddha had done His job that is searching of answers. All arahats had done their jobs at arahatta magga khana. All their jobs had been done. But I would say their sitting under a tree as formal practice. They are not looking for anything why sikkhas are looking for arahatta magga nana. But the action of sitting, staying in mahasatipatthana much not that differ. The Buddha did sit. Mahamoggalana did sit. Sariputta did sit.Upali did sit. Kondanna did sit. Assaji did sit. Ananda did sit. Many other arahats did sit. But these days people are discussing 'formal sitting or not'. I just smile. Amara, Sarah, and some other people would deny sitting. As I anticipated you, Sukin also reject the idea of sitting. I do not put aside pariyatti. But sitting formally is just following the foregoers. I am not sitting in order to 'arise my sati, my panna, my samadhi, my concentration'. But I do sit daily. I discern on what I experienced while I am sitting. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: Actually, I have reservation with regard to any `idealistic' attitude about developing Mahasatipatthana even in daily life. I feel this way because it can condition the idea of `self' and `control'. In a day if there is no satipatthana at all, it is good to know this, better than then following some practice and risk having a false idea of achievement and progress. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Here what I can see is initial misunderstanding. If initial idea was out of way, there will never approach the right way unless the initial way is recognised as wrong. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >Htoo: >Once I saw Sujin's writing regarding this. I noticed that Sujin was >clear to express. But pupils took differently. Nina is straight >forward. But cerain pupil is not. Sukin: Can you elaborate? I haven't come to my present position taking K. Sujin or Nina as authority. I do reason, but there is also what I believe to be a degree of experience. But I may be deluded, so please continue with this discussion with me; I may come to adopt your viewpoint ;-). ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Once I read a single sentence in a very long message. The message was written by K.Sujin, I think. That sentence attracted me why some people are aversive to 'formal sitting'. When I happen to find that again, I will post it at DSG directing you, Sukin. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >Htoo: >I would say mahasatipatthana should be in our daily life. On the >other hand, formal practice should be practised. >The Buddha stayed in phalasamapatti. Great arahats stayed in >phalasamapatti. Many arahats stayed in phalasamapatti. Some >arahats sometimes stayed in nirodha sapamatti. Sukin: But is this the same as "formal practice"? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I have explained my view above. They have done their job and they do not have any more job for liberation. But they do sit in formal sitting styles. And all sikkha bhikkhus in The Buddha time sat, stood, walked and so on. Sitting is a part of practice. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: >If someone is aversive to formal practice, I would feel pity for him >or her. Sukin: It is actually none of my business. But I do admit feeling some aversion sometime. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: It is good to mind own business. When you say feeling some aversion, you have already found one of real dhamma that is dosa as a cetasika that arises along with citta, which is good for you. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: But not with regard to doing it myself, I just don't believe in the concept, but towards those who encourage it, especially who choose to disregard pariyatti. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Pariyatti, patipatti, pativedha are sasana. Nothing is less important. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >Htoo: >But clinging to formal practice without full understanding of >implication may sound like rituals as Sujin said. Sukin: This is obvious, but I think any idea of `doing' which disregards in principle, that there is a dhamma arising "NOW" to be known, is silabattaparamasa. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Could you please explain silabattaparamasa? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: It is time to go and pick up my son from school. So please excuse my leaving out the rest of you post. And please keep going with this discussion. :-) Metta, Sukin. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: That's fine. How nice it is to discuss with you. With Metta, Htoo Naing 36474 From: htootintnaing Date: Thu Sep 16, 2004 8:37am Subject: 21 questions about Buddhism ( 03 ) Dear Catalin and All, This post is 3rd post of replies to Catalin's 21 questions. With Metta, Htoo Naing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Catalin: 5)Why do some people from some schools pray for help from the Buddha? Isn't Buddha in nirvana away from our words? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Even though The Buddha do not exist any more, good will and good wish do work and they do have a good effect. When someone prays to The Buddha who you will be thinking that in Nibbana, other people might hear. Any of them may give help. If there is no human being nearby then those beings who hear their prayer may give them help in some way. So their actions are not to be hinder if they wish to do so. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Catalin: 6)I found this quote: "The 4th Buddhist council (c. 100 AD) - . Theravada Buddhism does not recognize the authenticity of this council, and it is sometimes called the "council of HERETICAL monks"." -isn't Buddhism an tolerant religion? And what about calling some of the Buddhist ways a LESSER vehicle, or nichiren attitude towards other branches of Buddhism? etc.. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: This has to be verified. Actually there is no branch at all, no vehicle at all. The Buddha did not preach this is lesser vehicle, this is greater vehicle, this is this branch and that is for that branch. In real there is only a single Buddhism. The problems are happening because of their ignorance and lack of wisdom. It is wrong to say 'tolerant' but it is a cool religion and non- harming religion. May you be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 36475 From: htootintnaing Date: Thu Sep 16, 2004 8:34am Subject: 21 questions about Buddhism ( 01 ) Dear Catalin and All, I have taken the trouble of Catalin. Please see below for detail. May you all be free from any kind of suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: As there are 21 questions, I will answer question after question and there will be many replies as there are 21 questions. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Catalin wrote: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Catalin: Hello, I have a few questions about Buddhism to which I haven't found an satisfactory answer yet. The questions are not related to each other and are nor sorted by importance: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: 21 questions is more than ' a few questions '. But you are not limited to ask. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Catalin: 1) Why do we,nirvana,Buddha,souls,karma,everything,etc. exist (according to Buddhism)?What is the purpose of life and this world? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Why do 1.we 2.nibbana ( nirvana ) 3.The Buddha ( should be The Buddha rather than Buddha ) 4.souls 5.kamma ( karma ) 6.everything etc etc exist ( according to Buddhism )? Whether this is according to Buddhism or not, the answers should be the same. Your question is who do these exist? First validity of question has to be checked. Is there 'we'? Is there 'The Buddha'? Is there 'souls'? Is there everything etc etc? No. There is no such things in real. There is no 'we', no 'The Buddha', no 'souls', no 'everything etc etc' at all. Can you find such things in real? I must ask back to you. Nibbana is a reality. Kamma is realtion and potential rather than reality. But there do exist kamma. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Catalin: 2nd part. What is the purpose of life and this world? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Life does not have purpose and this world does not have purpose. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Catalin: 2) If nothing really is, then why keep living and not suicide? We can't really kill ourselves if we really don't exist...Why trying to escape something that doesn't actually exist? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Keep living not our actions. But killing anyone any being including ourselves is action. All actions have intention. All intentions worth their corresponding effects. This is why kamma dictate you and all. So you do not need to worry for keep living of you yourself and others, right. And the worst is that you do not need to encourage you yourself and others to do suicide. This is action. First you yourself have a mind to urge such an idea. Second you have alread spread your message to several Yahoo Groups of Buddhism. This is vaci equivalent of your action. This equivalent resulted from your bodily actions of typing and sending messages to different people and different groups, right. All these have intentions. This have been done and you cannot be undone these again. But I would suggest you not to think them again, OK. And your last 2 sentences are not logical. May you be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 36476 From: htootintnaing Date: Thu Sep 16, 2004 9:14am Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 063 ) Dear Dhamma Friends, Akincannayatana arupa jhana is also included in 5th rupa jhana in terms of jhana factors even though it is an arupa jhana. Akincannayatana arupa jhana citta has ekaggata as jhana factor and this citta is also associated with upekkha vedana. This 3rd arupa jhana has to be practised in order to becomes proficient. The citta is arupavacara citta. It is a jhana citta. Its object is natthibho pannatta that is the idea that there is nothing or nothingness. Through different exercises, there finds weakness in akincannayatana arupa jhana. Because this arupa jhana is quite subtly close to vinnanancayata arupa jhana if nothingness is not directed. Falling back to vinnanancayatana may also lead to falling back to akasanancayatana and this again may draw back to rupa jhana. This step is a bit difficult. Because the citta itself that is akincannayatana arupa jhana citta itself is very subtle and almost inconspicuous for contemplation. If there is enough panna, this citta again has weakness that there is a possibility of falling back to vinnanancayatana arupa jhana. This makes the practitioner to explore further whether there is any higher jhana. He will continue to practise his akincannayatana arupa jhana and at a time, as he becomes to realise the weakness and become to see what this 3rd arupa jhana citta is, he will slowly detach from this akincannayatana arupa jhana. Instead he will contemplate on the 3rd arupa jhana citta as this 3rd arupa jhana citta is very very very subtle, so inconspicuous but still it is recognisable for him as he has enough wisdom to see such matter. He notices that the 3rd arupa jhana citta is so inconspicuous that it is hard to see and difficult to say whether there is a sanna in that citta. If it is assumed as there is not a sanna, equally it is also hard to see and difficult to say whether there is na-sanna or non- perception. As it is equally hard to say whether there is a sanna or there is a na-sanna, in simple English it is difficult to say whether there is a perception or whether there is a non-perception. The mind is well calm. There is just upekkha vedana in that citta. The object of this new citta is paramattha dhamma that is the 3rd arupa jhana citta. This new citta is called n'evasannanasannayatana arupavacara arupakusala citta. This citta is 73rd citta of 89 citta. If this arises in arahats, it is called n'evasannanasannayatana arupavacara arupakiriya citta. This citta is 81st citta of 89 cittas in total and the last lokiya citta. When a person who is in n'evasannanasannayatana arupavacara arupakusala citta, he will be reborn in n'evasanna-nasannayatana arupa brahma bhumi with the patisandhi citta called ''nevasanna- nasannayatana arupavacara arupavipaka citta''. This citta is 77th citta of 89 cittas. N'evasannanasannayatana is a long word. It has 'Na, eva, sanna, nasanna, ayatana' as components. Na means 'no' 'not'. Eva means 'such as' 'such' 'such that' 'such is'. N'eva means such is not. What 'such is not' is sanna and nasanna. Sanna means perception. Nasanna means non-perception. So it means that sanna or non-sanna are not. In the otherway this may mean that 'neither ..sanna.. nor ..nasanna..'. Both are wrong to say and both are equally not right. Ayatana is where the subject dwell or depend on. So far we have discussed all lokiya cittas that is 81 cittas. There are 8 cittas left to be discussed. They are lokuttara cittas. There are 8 lokuttara cittas. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome and they will be valuable. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts. 36477 From: htootintnaing Date: Thu Sep 16, 2004 8:36am Subject: 21 questions about Buddhism ( 02 ) Dear Catalin and All, Here are more answers to Catalin's questions. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Catalin: 3)Why are there miracles in all the worlds religion, some witnessed by many, even in religions with totally opposed dogmas? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Miracles are not miracles as you think. But things are going on their own schedules. No one is influencing on them. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Catalin: 4)Why do some Buddhist build huge Buddha statues when Buddha was just a man and didn't demand worshiping? And also why they worship gods not related to Buddhism (from popular mythology) when Buddha said we don't need Gods? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Statues are just representatives. There are 4 representatives of The Buddha who had helped countless beings when He was there in this world and even in His absence after Mahaparinibbana. These 4 representatives are 1. Element or 'dhatu ceti' such as bones, teeth, canines, molars, skull or The Buddha 2. The utensils of The Live Buddha 'paribhoga ceti' such as robes, bowl etc etc 3. For remembrance of The Live Buddha 'uddhissa ceti' such as photo, drawing, painting, image, statute, including your thinking if you really admire The Buddha 4. Teachings of The Buddha 'Dhamma ceti' such as suttas, vinayas, abhidhamma, verses, Tipitaka etc etc. Even though The Buddha did not demand worshipping, He did preached that there are goodness. Hugh statues are for general public such as a large crowd of people. Individuals can place a small representative in their shrine at home. Those who destroyed hugh statue did action. This action is bigger than destroying smaller statutes because they had to produce higher effort. They were destroying the hope of a large crowd of people who would otherwise became good people in the presence of statute. In the absence, they would not have any inhibition and they would do more bad actions. The reason of making high statute is for a great crowd of people. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Catalin: why they worship gods not related to Buddhism? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: As long as they take refuge in Triplegem that is The Buddha, The Dhamma, The Sangha, their actions related to worshipping gods not related to Buddhism is simless and harmless. Do you do good to your parents? If yes, such good doing can also do to gods not related to Buddhism provided they do not assume gods are their refuges. May you be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 36478 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Sep 16, 2004 10:02am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vis. XIV, 100 and Tiika. Hi Larry, op 16-09-2004 01:30 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > Thanks for your answers regarding registration with roots and the object > of bhavanga. I didn't completely understand the answers but maybe it > will become clearer as we go along. N: If it is not clear, do mention it, I try again. I read details in Expositor and TA, but of course there are dark areas for me. Such as past rupa. All the details about the object of bhavangacitta maybe not so relevant now. But as to the duration of a process, understanding this gives a basic idea about the occurring of cittas in processes. L: Also, concerning no eye consciousness and dark, I think I disagree with > everyone. It seems to me dark is an object of eye consciousness, > essentially black or shades of grey, while no eye consciousness isn't > anything visible at all. Basically not a visual experience. N: Agreed, not a visual experience. L:I'm tempted > to say the nibbana of eye consciousness, but I won't. N: Better not. You wrote to Howard: < I agree that absences are known through the mind door; so no eye consciousness is known through the mind door.> N: It seems just an idea or concept, an object of thinking only, not a reality. Dan warned us as to thinking of absences. It does not seem so relevant to me. L <... When it is suddenly quiet, don't you experience silence? That suggests to me that dark and silence can be objects of sense consciousness.> N: An idea of silence. An object of thinking only. We have to remember Dan's warning! L: We might further ask if the 'knowing' of no eye consciousness is in any way similar to the experience of nibbana in a path moment. I would say there could well be some similarity if for no other reason than that this knowing of an absence sounds similar to the immaterial jhanas and I suspect these jhanas are a near stepping-stone to nibbana. N: The person who can attain arupa-jhana must emerge from that jhana and develop insight, being aware of dhammas, such as the jhana factors. Otherwise he cannot attain enlightenment. I do not see arupa jhana as a stepping stone. You wrote to Howard about suchness of reality. L: "Suchness" is tathata. I wonder if sabhava is a synonym of tathata, also found in tathagata, "thus gone one". N: Tathaa: thus, in that way. Sabhaava: nature, condition, reality. B.B. translated the meaning of the word Tathaagata, as rendered by the Co. (In his book The all-embracing Net of Views). Here are a few meanings in short: thus come, like the former Buddhas, after having developed all the perfections. Thus gone, he went the same way as the former Buddhas. His way of going was real (tatha). Subco: the movement of his knowledge. He has come to the real characteristics of dhamma. He is the speaker of what is real. Subco: Nina. 36479 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Sep 16, 2004 10:02am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Bagels, Forest & Happy Walks Dear Al, You are so kind. You express words of appreciation and you know, this is dana or generosity. It is motivated by kusala citta, but kusala citta is not AL's kusala. It arises when there are the right conditions for it. Kusala citta is different from akusala citta with discouragement. The last one is rooted in dosa, aversion. Discouragement is not AL's, it arises because of conditions. So we can see that at different moments of the day there are kusala cittas and akusala cittas. If you understand just this, you are well on the way to understand Dhamma. And without the Buddha there is no way to know this precisely. The growth of pañña is difficult for all of us, but we should remember that pañña needs supporting conditions. Al, when you express to your parents or sister kind words of appreciation of their good qualities, there are kusala cittas with dana, and all such moments are accumulated and form conditions for the growth of understanding. We should not underestimate small gestures with kindness. Good friendship is also a supporting condition. Also confidence in the Buddha and you certainly have. Many conditions are needed for the development of understanding. We do not have to wait, favorable conditions can be cultivated. Nina. op 15-09-2004 23:27 schreef Andrew Levin op andrewlevin@e...: > Nina, > > I'd just like to personally thank you for the works you've contributed > to the community and to your personal presence here and correspondence > with me. You are doing yourself and the rest of us a great service. 36480 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Sep 16, 2004 10:02am Subject: Re: [dsg] Flip-flopping Hi Herman, op 15-09-2004 01:09 schreef Herman Hofman op hhofman@t...: > I hope you and your family are well. N: Thanks, we should not complain (Dutch, in Brabant: we moge nie moppere.) > > HH > It is very interesting, this discussion. Such different viewpoints > about the same material. How do we find out what something is? We all > agree that citta knows. Even in English this is so. Conscious is from > the Latin "with knowing". We are all conscious, but yet we differ. How > can this be? Knowing isn't insight, and we all know that too > > HH > We always need to check whether we are just conscious, or whether > we are thinking or just plain deluded. It is so easy to be fooled. N: Yes, we are fooled by ignorance. I am not thinking of science but the deeper kind of ignorance the Buddha taught: ignorance of dhammas that appear now, one at a time. H: Do the test and one can > see what rupas without eye-base look like. All day long we are seeing > how the mind presents blindness. It turns out that blindness is seeing. > But we don't see that, and never will if introspection is the only means > at our disposal. N: Herman, science does not help me to cure me of the delusion the Buddha explained. H: The experience of > what appears now is just what it is, concepts or not. But the > after-the-fact rigid imposition of a wrong or incomplete concept on what > is observed will prevent any insight from arising. ... N: You said: can this be?> We have different thoughts, some correct, some not. We are all in the cycle of birth and death: ignorance conditions sankhaara: good and bad kamma. It conditions different ways of thinking. Nina. 36481 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Sep 16, 2004 10:02am Subject: Re: [dsg] not so classifiable Dear Azita, op 16-09-2004 01:53 schreef gazita2002 op gazita2002@y...: > T.A.Sujin described this event - the taking up of the object by > the mind door, after the sense door - as two pieces of thin paper, > one on top of the other; if a drop of water touched the first sheet > then it would [almost] instantly reach the second sheet. N: Very good, I remember now. I had forgotten it. A: Maybe you have heard this before, but when I heard it, that not- > so-classifiable-object concept became a little clearer for me. NIna. 36482 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Sep 16, 2004 10:02am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Bagels, Forest & Happy Walks Hello Phil, I appreciate any kind of posting you find useful and suitable for this or that moment. I read now to Lodewijk: In Asoka's Footsteps, as a preparation for India. Before that: Preserving the Buddha's teachings, our last India trip. Nina. op 16-09-2004 01:47 schreef plnao op plnao@j...: > so with the permission > of this group I will start posting passages as I'm doing with "Deeds of > Merit." 36483 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Sep 16, 2004 10:02am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Bagels, Forest & Happy Walks Dear Al, op 15-09-2004 21:25 schreef Andrew Levin op andrewlevin@e...: > but I don't think you're correct.... > I have read some chapters from Abhidharma in Daily Life N: Some chapters, but what about one sentence and then ask questions about it. Some chapters I think are too much now. I call that a lot. You still seem to want to read too much at a time, and then you get needlessly discouraged. AL:My salvation may come from one practise guide I have, if I can manage to carry it out. N: Better to very gadually develop your own understanding instead of following a practise guide. Can we be sure the guide is the right one? AL: Well the Tathagata has arisen in the world, I have just yet to understand his dharma. N: Hey, that is true for all of us!!! You expressed that very beautifully, we can frame it and hang it up as a reminder: Very nice. In fact, I printed it out for myself as a reminder. AL: As it is, frankly, my mind-stream will be sinking down into the lower > realms if nothing changes. N: If you tell yourself this all the time it will work out in a negative way. Do not think of what will come, nor of the past, only the present counts. Let us understand just that. May we all have more understanding of the present moment! Nina. 36484 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Sep 16, 2004 10:02am Subject: Re: [dsg] Cetasikas' study corner11-Introduction(h) Hello Phil, I like the part of the benefit studying bhavangas, but I like to add something. op 16-09-2004 02:10 schreef plnao op plnao@j...: > How do we benefit from knowing about the bhavangas? Along with all the > other unknowable cittas that arise during, and in the case of bhavangas > between, > sense-door and mind-door processes, they point at the lack of a self behind > things. ... > This is my take. I hope others will step in if they think bhavangas are > indeed to be known > and experienced by worldlings. N: A. Sujin spoke about this. We should not say they cannot be known. It depends on insight. She said, why did he teach about this if it cannot be known. She explained: there is no object appearing, then there is, then there is not. When there is bhavangacitta, no object appears, indeed. We do not know the object of bhavangacitta that is the same as the object of rebirth-consciousness, and this again has the same object as the last javanacittas of the previous life. But the bhavangacitta itself has a characteristic. It appears in between processes. But it is of no use trying to catch it. The same goes for all the ahetuka cittas that are unknown in daily life: eventually they can be known. A. Sujin suggested this title to me. Nina. 36485 From: Date: Thu Sep 16, 2004 6:20am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Citta as experiencing, to Dan. Hi, Ken - In a message dated 9/16/04 9:28:16 AM Eastern Daylight Time, ashkenn2k@y... writes: > Hi Howard > > Silence is different from darkness conceptually. But it can be the > same in rupas. It can be also space performing different function > due to our concept craze mind. I hope I am talking sense :) Anyway > I am speculating (it is a hunch) there are experts there who could > give u the logical explanations. Just wish to make a point that > absence is not anti-rupa and neither does it mean it is out of the 24 > rupas :) > > > Ken O > ======================== No, I don't think they differ just conceptually. They are quite different - truly different, and alike only in both being absences. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 36486 From: rjkjp1 Date: Thu Sep 16, 2004 2:40pm Subject: [dsg] Re:Samatha, Vipassana, Anicca...Nibbana & Discussion ( 01 ) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Just a passing comment on one part only about the poor man in the > operating theatre: > +++++++++++++++++++++++++ > > the conducting nerve is already blocked. > > > > The conditions are there. He has his body parts. He is conscious. > > There is touch object repeatedly tapping him. > ...+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > I'd say there are no conditions for the body consciousness vipaka cittas > to arise and experience the rupas. We know there has to be > body-sensitivity as a condition for this as well as the impact of the > rupas. This was discussed recently in a Vism segment. > > +++++++++++ Dear Sarah, Venerable Nyanatiloka wrote on a different aspect about having an operation: "Once a well-known Buddhist author, in a discussion with me, to my greatest surprise positively declared that there may be painful feeling without consciousness, for example during a painful operation whilst being under chloroform. This indeed is a most extraordinary blunder. How will it ever be possible to feel pain without being conscious of it? Painful feeling is a mental phenomenon and as such inseparable from consciousness and the other mental phenomena. If we do not perceive pain, and are not conscious of pain, how can we feel pain? Thus consciousness, feeling, perception and all the other mental phenomena are mutually conditioned by way of co-nascence." http://www.skepticfiles.org/mys5/fundamen.htm robert 36487 From: plnao Date: Thu Sep 16, 2004 3:49pm Subject: Deeds of Merit - Paying respect to the Triple Gem helps in eradication of defilements Hello all More from "Deeds of Merit" by Sujin Boriharnwanaket available at http://www.zolag.co.uk/meri2.html K.S. : So long as there are defilements there will be conceit. Conceit is one type of defilement. Some people have a particular defilement to a great extent, but of other kinds of defilements they have only a slight degree. Moreover, there are coarse, medium and subtle defilements, and if one does not investigate and consider ones cittas in detail, one will not know at all the characteristic of each kind of defilement which has been accumulated from one citta to the next citta. The Buddha attained enlightenment and since he had reached the end of the cycle of birth and death, he passed away completely. However, he taught the Dhamma and the Dhamma is his successor. People who pay homage to the Buddha, the Dhamma and the Sangha, and who give expression to their respect by the investigation and the practice of the Dhamma, will eradicate defilements stage by stage, until they are all eradicated. Ph: This "give expression to their respect by the investigation and the practice of Dhamma" is very interesting. By investigation, I think K Sujin means investigation of realities, not investigation into the Buddha's teaching in a way that would enable me to form logical opinions about the meaning there using my rational mind. A moment of investigation of realities - in other words, a moment of mindfulness - is a moment of paying respect to the Buddha. That will help me to appreciate the importance of a single moment of mindfulness. Metta, Phil 36488 From: Date: Thu Sep 16, 2004 3:52pm Subject: Vism.XIV,101 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) Ch. XIV 101. III. i. A. (b) 'Unprofitable resultant', though is without root-cause only. It is of seven kinds as (50) eye-consciousness, (51)-(54) ear-, nose-, tongue-, and body-consciousness, (55) mind-element with the function of receiving, and (56) mind-consciousness-element with the function of investigating, etc., and having five positions. It should be understood as to characteristic, etc., in the same way as the profitable resultant without root-cause (34)-(41). 36489 From: connieparker Date: Thu Sep 16, 2004 8:06pm Subject: Re: Samatha, Vipassana, Anicca...Nibbana & Discussion ( 01 ) Dear Sarah and Htoo, I overstated when I said kamma includes "Any volitional act, from cetana directing the cetasikas of each citta... ". Surely, the cetana involved in resultant/vipaka and kiriya/functional can't be considered kamma. Think I'll see if I can't find a UP to keep me afloat. peace, connie 36490 From: kenhowardau Date: Thu Sep 16, 2004 8:50pm Subject: Re: 21 questions about Buddhism Hi Catalin, Thanks for asking these really good questions. While reading Rob M's equally good answers, I thought of some possible changes and additions: ------------------- C: > > 11)If when someone dies memories(soul/Atman) also die, then how come > Buddha and others can remember past lives? > > ===== RobM: > Buddism does not accept the concept of a soul / atman. When one dies, the physical body falls away but the mind continues with another body. > ----------------------- KH: This answer could be misconstrued. It could suggest that consciousness carries over from one life to the next (or from one moment to the next). Perhaps Rob should have said, "When one dies the mind and body (nama and rupa) fall away just like they always do but, in this case, the nama and rupa of the succeeding moment will arise as the birth of a new life cycle. ---------------------------- C: > > 14)Rebirth and karma-where are the proves they exist? They don't seem > more real than the gods of ancient Greece or Santa Clauses... > It is true that every effect has a cause but there is no -------------------------- KH: If you accept that every effect has a cause, wouldn't you believe that your birth had a cause? And wouldn't you also accept that every cause has an effect? At the end of this current lifetime, there will be countless causes that have still not had their effects. For everyone except an Arahant, one of those effects will be the arising of consciousness in a new life cycle. And so there will be rebirth, and there will be the potential for all causes to have their effects. ----------------- C: > > 15)How can we trust personal experiences through meditation and other > Buddhist practices? An schizophrenic or someone who takes LSD or someone > who stayed too much in the sun may meet Santa Claus, then that means > that Santa Claus exists? ------------------------ KH: Thanks for that excellent observation. Here at dhamma-study- group, some of us are learning the original form of Buddhism in which personal experiences are not mistaken for the Way. Having lost our fascination with personal experiences, we are just trying to understand the Dhamma. ------------------------- C: > > 16)Why are sects like pure land Buddhism and nichiren Buddhism > (especially SGI) (and even left hand tantra vajrayana Buddhism) > considered as being "Buddhist"? Jainism and some Hindu sects are MUCH > closer to Buddhism than them! ------------------------------ KH: Historians can trace the spread of Buddhism and the various ways in which it has been adapted to suit cultures and religions. In my humble opinion, adaptation means adulteration, and so we should study the oldest-known form of the teaching. -------------------------------- C: > > 20)Where can I find all the pali canon for download (in English) ==== RobM: > For Theravada, I would go to "Access to Insight". I know of no good comparative site. ===== KH: I would add, "Be careful; the producers of that site believe in an eternal soul! They omit the Abhidhamma and many suttas from their translations, leaving only those parts of the Tipitaka that can be misconstrued as eternalistic." There are other good sources of English translations - as mentioned on dsg from time to time. Kind regards, Ken H 36491 From: gazita2002 Date: Thu Sep 16, 2004 9:20pm Subject: Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner13-Introduction(j) Dear Sarah, I have a question, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Dear Friends, > > Cetasikas by Nina van Gorkom. > ......... The realities of our life, including out > defilements, should be understood as not self. So long as we take > defilements for self or "mine" they cannot be eradicated. The direct > understanding of realities as non-self is the condition for not doing > evil, for cultivating the good and for purifying one's mind. > ***** How does this direct understanding become a condition for 'us' to do no evil, etc? It sort of makes sense to me, but as there are still defilements _surely there are still the conditions for them to arise, and do evil? no? Maybe the evil performed is a lesser degree than if no understanding. Maybe I've answered my own question!!! Patience, courage and good cheer, Azita. 36492 From: robmoult Date: Thu Sep 16, 2004 9:27pm Subject: Re: Samatha, Vipassana, Anicca...Nibbana & Discussion ( 01 ) Hi Connie, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, connieparker wrote: > I overstated when I said kamma includes "Any volitional act, from cetana > directing the cetasikas of each citta... ". Surely, the cetana involved > in resultant/vipaka and kiriya/functional can't be considered kamma. > Think I'll see if I can't find a UP to keep me afloat. Maybe I can help. In all cittas, cetana plays the role of coordinating the cetasikas: - this is cetana's only role in non-javana cittas (i.e. kiriya / vipaka) - in javana cittas, cetana also plays the role of willing (creating kamma), like a boss who directs workers and also does his share of the work as well; it is "exceedingly energetic" Metta, Rob M :-) 36493 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Sep 16, 2004 10:04pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: kamma and vipaka. Dear Htoo and Sarah, I like the dialogies with Htoo very much. Also those with Sukin. op 16-09-2004 16:41 schreef htootintnaing op htootintnaing@y...: > Htoo: Not only disasters but also in daily ordinary life. Kamma is > too complicated to fully understand. > > Right now, you may hear something. That sound arises according to > conditions. These again have to coincide with arising vipakas in > beings. N: I find it very helpful what Htoo says: Contemplating conditions helps us not to have pictorial ideas about the impingement of sense objects on the sense-doors. What helps most is considering sound and hearing right now! > Sarah: > > At first I thought it was a rather minoracademic point, but when I > hear about people fearing the results of every little bit of lobha or > aversion or ignorance in their lives, I realize it has some important > practicality as well. Nina may also have more to add. N: Fear is no good, it adds more dosa to the latent tendencies of dosa. Rob K also wrote about the three cycles of kamma, vipaka and kilesa (defilements). This is in the Commentaries. I have to check Visuddhimagga (Ch XVII). Kamma produces a result in the form of vipaaka. We like or dislike vipaaka and this is defilement. Defilement motivates kamma and this produces vipaka and so on. We also can look in the Dispeller of Delusion, Sammohavinodani. But I also remember A. Sujin: sammalobha and visammalobha. Rob K wrote about it. Sammalobha: slight lobha, liking food, looking at trees. The countless, countless unnoticed moments of lobha after a moment of seeing right now, hearing right now. Think of all the javana cittas in the processes! Or thinking with neutral feeling: just thinking about a cup. This is usually with lobha, unless there is dana, sila or bhavana. It is sammalobha, you do not harm others. This is not the same as evil kamma. When reading about Kamma patha in the Expositor I see the specific conditions mentioned to make it a completed action. There are many degrees of kamma. Nina. 36494 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Sep 16, 2004 10:04pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Samatha, Vipassana, Anicca...Nibbana & Discussion ( 01 ) Dear Sarah, Yes, I all the time go through the T.A. to check when reading the Tiika. It helps a lot, but I have to search many different pages at different parts of the book and look at the Index. Nina. op 16-09-2004 11:19 schreef sarah abbott op sarahprocterabbott@y...: > Also, Nina, I’m sure you’ve seen it, but some of the same material you > are translating from the Vism Tika is covered here in ch 5 of the > commentary, such as the part about prompted and unprompted kamma and the > reflection in the mirror, p.197. 36495 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Sep 16, 2004 10:04pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: function, manifestation, etc. Dear Ken H, op 16-09-2004 09:48 schreef kenhowardau op kenhowardau@y...: > > I can understand that, but I didn't realise dhammas could be known > only by their characteristics. Just to clarify: Are their > functions, manifestations and proximate causes never directly > experienced? N: Take seeing. Its function is seeing, dassana kicca. It can be directly experienced, but no need to think of function or manifestation. These are merely taught to help us to have more understanding of seeing. It is a good foundation of pariyatti to study these things. See Vis. XIV, 96. Remember: it is the falling away (departing) of the eye-door adverting consciousness (first citta in the eye-door process), that is the proximate cause. It is good to study and consider this, but when seeing appears now and there can be awareness of it, you do not think of all these words. We may think of the eyes, but that is not seeing. Still, pariyatti is most helpful. Our own wrong ideas and phantasies about seeing can be eliminated. Maybe we have some wrong pictorial ideas about visible object and the way it impinges on the eyesense. Nina. 36496 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Sep 17, 2004 0:35am Subject: Re: [dsg] 21 questions about Buddhism Hi Catalin, --- Catalin wrote: > Hello, > I have a few questions about Buddhism to which I haven't found an > satisfactory answer yet. The questions are not related to each other and > > are nor sorted by importance: .... S: You've received many excellent answers from RobM, Htoo, KenH and also from Herman to one. Please let us know what you make of the responses and follow up on any of particular interest - maybe in separate threads if need be. You may also like to look at some past posts on some of the same topics (selected by the moderators) and follow any of the correspondence at the end of them: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/Useful_Posts .... C: > I hope you will forgive my bad English and don't find any of my > questions offensive. If this is not the right place to put these > questions then I am sorry. ... S: Your English is fine and there was nothing offensive at all in your Qs. They're very welcome! ...? > PS: I chose to post to these 5 groups because from all the Buddhist > groups from Yahoo they seem most active. I again apologize if I broke > any rule but I don't know where else could I ask these questions. ... S: No rules broken here and we have quite a few;-). Catalin, besides following up or adding any further comments to the replies, please let us know a little more about yourself, such as where you live, if you feel inclined. Obviously you've been considering what you've read and heard keenly and we'll look forward to more questions. If you have time, please look at Nina's book 'Buddhism in Daily Life' or any of the other materials on these websites: http://www.vipassana.info/ http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Metta, Sarah ======== 36497 From: Herman Hofman Date: Fri Sep 17, 2004 0:55am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: 21 questions...[Herman: "how you will see..."] Hi Dan, Thanks for the post. It is oh so valuable to get feedback for further consideration. ================ > I see karma in the following way. With whatever intention you act in the world from time to time, so you will perceive the world to act towards you from time to time. This is a great point, Herman, and it is certainly an aspect of kamma/vipaka. Another aspect is that greed/hatred/delusion tend to produce more greed/hatred/delusion. These states are "suffering" in and of themselves. Another aspect: Suppose a tree falls on your leg. Is this because you were bad in the past? Of course! The bad actions (akusala kamma) keep "you" going, and eventually something "bad" will happen. ================ Point taken. I also thought Htoo made excellent points about famines and storms. They affect everybody. But there is no predetermined, necessary response to any event. A broken leg, hunger, damaged goods will be taken in their stride by some, and for others it will be a trigger for great aversion. The determination of what an event means, or how it is going to affect us, is always open. Nothing is good or bad in itself, until the determination/judgement is made. My opinion only, of course :-) Kind Regards Herman 36498 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Sep 17, 2004 1:37am Subject: Re: [dsg] What is Meditation ? HI Nori, Thank you for posting the extract from Qus of King Milinda and for your interesting post (well-received as Howard said;-)). --- nori wrote: <...> > Nagasena in Questions of King Milinda (oxford `Sacred Books of the > East', T. Rhys Davids) Book V, 6: 'There are certain types of > meditation, O king, that have been made known by the Blessed One, by > him of knowledge and insight, by the Arahat, the Buddha Supreme. And > they are these. The idea of the impermanence (of every thing and of > every being), the idea of the absence of any abiding principle (any > soul in any thing or any being), the idea of the impurity and the > idea of the danger connected with the body, <...> etc ... S: I don’t have the Pali, but looking at I.B.Horner’s translation and notes, I think that ‘certain types of meditation’ refers to aarammana (objects of insight in context). Also, ‘idea’ refers to sa~n~naa, so ‘idea of the impermanence’ would be anicca-sa~n~naa I believe as object of insight. I mention this in case it is taken as a conceptual view. I also like the paragraph before the helpful one you quoted. Let me add it here. As it’s not too long, I’ll give I.B. Horner’s translation which I prefer for this passage (not on line): “In the Lord’s City of Dhamma the encircling walls are moral habit, the moats are conscience, the ramparts over the city-gates are knowledge, the watch-towers are energy, the pillars are faith, the door-keepers are mindfulness, the palace is wisdom, the cross-roads are the suttantas, the places where three or four roads meet is the Abhidhamma, the law-court is the Vinaya, the streetway is the application of mindfulness. And in the streetway of the applications of mindfulness such shops as these are offering (goods) for sale, that is to say a flower-shop, a perfume-shop, a fruit-shop, an antidote-shop, a medicine-shop, a nectar-shop, a jewel-shop and a general shop.” ***** It contiues with the description of the flower-shop you gave. All the other shops are well worth visiting: http://www.sacred-texts.com/bud/sbe36/sbe3607.htm#page_212 As we’ve been discussing the Buddha’s medicines recently on DSG, let me give an extract from the medicine shop for now. This time I’ll quote from the on-line translation to save typing, putting a few notes of mine in brackets: “ 'And what, venerable Nâgasena, is the medicine bazaar of the Blessed One, the Buddha?' 'Certain medicines, O king, have been made known by the Blessed One, medicines by which he cures the whole world of gods and men. And they are these:--"The four Means of keeping oneself ready and mindful (four satipatthanas), and the fourfold Great Struggle (four right efforts), and the four Steps to Iddhi, and the five Organs of the moral sense (five indriyas or faculties), and the five moral Powers (five balas), and the seven Forms of the Wisdom (seven bhojjangas) of the Arahats, and the Noble Eightfold Path ." By these medicines the Blessed One purges men of wrong views, purges them of low aspirations, purges them of evil speaking, purges them of evil deeds, purges them of evil modes of livelihood, purges them of wrong endeavours, purges them of evil thoughts, purges them of erroneous meditation; and he gives emetics to the vomiting up of lusts, and of malice, and of dullness, and of doubt, and of self-righteousness, and of sloth of body and inertness of mind, and of shamelessness and hardness of heart, and of all evil. And this, O king, is what is called "The Blessed One's bazaar of medicine." Of all the medicines found in all the world, Many in number, various in their powers, Not one equals this medicine of the Truth (Dhamma). Drink that, O brethren. Drink, and drinking, live!” **** S: For the last line, I.B. Horner gives: “Having meditated (bhaavayitvaa) on it and seen (it you would be) quenched through the destruction of clinging.” **** > So while, it seems generally understood by many that conception and > thought, should be left out of meditation, in the above > example, "specific conceptions, and ... investigation regarding them > (those conceptions)" is well included, at least in the early stages > of development. ..... S: I’ve snipped your visit to the bazaar of gems or jewel-shop. Here various jewels are viewed, such as the jewel of moral habit, the jewel of concentration (samdhi) which you quoted, the jewel of wisdom and so on. Under the jewel or gem of samadhi, the references to “specific conceptions, and ... investigation regarding them (those conceptions)” etc refers to vitakka and vicara as included in the 1st jhana factors. ... > The way I see it it this: states of concentration, such as those > achieved through anapana, as well as other states of concentration > can develop calm (samatha) and discernment in perception when done > correctly, as well as other effects. > Meditation, as I have given in this example (i.e. investigation, > evaluation) develops wisdom and insight, that is, builds > intelligence, and dispells ignorance. .... S: Hmmm...I wouldn’t come to the the same conclusion, but this post is already too long. Maybe you’d like to post short extracts from ‘the Problem of Inference’ in order for further discussion as we’re doing with other series? There is so much helpful material in it. I think the opening paragraphs also address the issue of how we believe and accept those aspects of the Teachings not yet experienced as well. Metta and thanks, Nori. Sarah p.s Thank you for your ‘electric shock’ post too. One moment of body consciousness accompanied by unpleasant feeling (or not), but so many mind door cittas before and after with expectation and aversion, colouring the recollection. A good reminder for us all. ============================== 36499 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Sep 17, 2004 1:49am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: "... as parasites a tree." ??? Hi Dighanakha, --- dighanakha wrote: > Thanks for posting the valiant defence of Kunala Cuckoo's wild > generalizations. .... S: :-) ... >Though as you might have expected, there is > rather little in it that I can agree with. Nothing remarkable in > this, as it's not often that I agree with anybody about anything. .... S: !!!. You've got my interest anyway and I'm looking forward to your further comments. Plenty to discuss further. Thx for the first part. You're obviously extremely well-read in the texts and I'm intrigued by the opening colouful messages from many new members here;-). Can I persuade you to also share a little more about yourself or background, such as where you live? Metta, Sarah p.s If the name sticks, can we be given a short nickname to address you by? Thx;-) ====== 36500 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Sep 17, 2004 1:53am Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner14-Introduction(k) Dear Friends, Cetasikas by Nina van Gorkom. http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== Introduction [contd] ***** In the chapters which follow I shall deal with fifty two different types of cetasikas. I shall first refer to seven types of cetasikas which accompany every citta. These are the Universals. Then I shall refer to six types of cetasikas which can arise with cittas of four jatis, cittas which are kusala, akusala, vipaka and kiriya (neither cause nor result), but which do not accompany each citta. These are called the Particulars. After that I shall deal with the Akusala Cetasikas and finally with the Beautiful (sobhana) Cetasikas . l shall deal with sati in Chapter 26. ***** [Introduction Finished!!] Metta, Sarah ====== 36501 From: sarahprocterabbott Date: Fri Sep 17, 2004 2:40am Subject: [dsg] Re: Scope and Focus (About Rupa) Hi RobM (Howard & KenH), This is a bit of an ambush post as I was away at the time and probably thought someone else would respond (ignore this if they did and I overlooked it on return): --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" wrote: > You gave the example of a person not existing by drawing an analogy > of a chariot not existing (being broken into component parts). I > believe that the first time this analogy was used is in the opening > section of Milindapanha (where Nagasena meets King Milinda for the > first time); this was written about 500 years after the death of the > Buddha (i.e. this analogy is not from the Suttas). .... S: Not quite correct: SN1:10 (Vajiraa) The bhikkhuni Vajiraa replies to Maara: "Why now do you assume `a being'? Maara, is that your speculative view? This is a heap of sheer formations: Here no being is found. "Just as, with an assemblage of parts, The word `chariot' is used, So, when the aggregates exist, There is the convention `a being'. "It's only suffering that comes to be, Suffering that stands and falls away. Nothing but suffering comes to be, Nothing but suffering ceases." [BB footnote: " `suffering' signifies the inherent unsatisfactoriness of the five aggregates (pa~ncakkhandhadukkha), which is identical with `the heap of sheer formations' (suddhasa'nkhaarapu~nja)...." ***** > When I talk about early Buddhism, I am not including the Kathavatthu > (Points of Controversy) which was written 350 years after the > Buddha's death. ... S: Remember the Mattika for this text was laid down by the Buddha who forsaw events and knew when it would be the right time for it and so on, i.e only after various controversies and schisms arose. .... > My definition of early Buddhism includes the Vinaya > Pitaka, the Sutta Pitaka and the earliest six books of the > Abhidhamma Pitaka. The first six books of the Abhidhamma Pitaka > engage in an unbelievable level of analysis; mental states (cittas), > mental factors (cetasikas), material qualities (rupas), etc. But > where in these original texts does it say that this analysis is for > the purpose of differentiating what "exists" and what "does not > exist"? According to Nyanatiloka's "Manual of Buddhist Terms and > Doctrines", the word "paramattha" (ultimate reality) first appeared > in the Kathavatthu. ... S: The first book of Abhidhamma starts with detail on states that are good, bad and indeterminate (kusala, akusala, avyakata) and we continue to read in great detail, as you say about all the paramattha dhammas. Rob, these realities are exactly the same as those included in the 5 khandhas above, plus of course, nibbana which is not dukkha. When we read something like `which are the states that are good?', followed by an elaboration, we could just as easily read `which are the existing states that are good'. The meaning is identical. Your children will use slang and jargon you don't use, but that doesn't mean we should be hung up on the language when it comes to addressing the meaning of what's being said. ... > I suspect that the discussion of realities is a later addition to > Buddhism (not part of the original Buddha's teaching). This position > may evoke a strong and emotional reaction from some on DSG. I am > hoping that somebody can prove me wrong by pointing me to a textual > reference. .... S: Apologies for the delay. I was probably waiting for someone else to provide you with the reaction and textual reference;-). I can only say that for me, the entire Tipitaka and ancient Pali commentaries are a `discussion of realities'. Metta, Sarah p.s. I loved your post on `metta' (35914) and the quote from the monk to the lady who was having trouble at work: "Metta is not like some psychic lightning. Get off your cushion and put metta into action by being nice to the person with whom you are having problems." I greatly appreciate your kind replies to questions from newcomers, Rob. =========== 36502 From: plnao Date: Fri Sep 17, 2004 2:46am Subject: seeing two black objects side by side Hello all Today I was sitting idling away some time with one leg crossed over the other. I saw my foot in the foreground of my field of vision, and a wastepaper basket in the background. Because of perspective, they were about the same size, and looked to be right next to each other. At the beginning, were they two visible objects, seen with different seeing processes that replaced one another in rapid alternation, or since they were so close together were they one visible object that got separated into two objects by the following processes that led to their being labeled? They were (still are) both black. Would the processes have been radically different if they were different colours? Or if they were in the same field of vision, but much further apart? Thanks in advance. Metta, Phil P.S Is a question mark two visible objects or one? 36503 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Sep 17, 2004 2:52am Subject: Re: [dsg] Theory and Practice - Eric Re: Anapanasati/ Sukin Hi Eric, Just a quick note to say I greatly enjoy your good-humoured posts and discussions with Jon, Sukin and others. I've been meaning to say this for a long time. Please continue to challenge them. You have a great way with words (loved the ‘unwrapping one’, but not handy to re-quote, so I’ll choose a couple of recent ones). --- ericlonline wrote: > I have said this already Jon. And now you are saying > person and not just monk. A change of mind maybe? Sure > takes awhile for your ship to turn around! Well, no wonder, > with all those books aboard, it must be a pretty large ship! > Consider me a tug boat of sorts. :-) ... >Sukin, please, I am saying it is both. Study and practice. I am not saying that contemplation is not needed or secondary for that matter. But when push comes to shove, you are going to have to leave all of this theorizing behind. Either you will intend to do it via meditation or death will force you! <...> Yes but the raft is not made of books! Why dont you see this? And where the raft meets the water, that has nothing to do with books! Now the books may have helped to build the raft but surely they >must be left behind on the other shore. ..... ;-) ;-) I’m also chuckling a little as little do you realize that Jon seldom has time to open his books and Sukin has told me he has a carpet of books in an upstairs room which he seldom opens either;-). Look forward to more...they’re very useful discussions between you all. Metta, Sarah ====== 36504 From: robmoult Date: Fri Sep 17, 2004 3:02am Subject: [dsg] Re: Scope and Focus (About Rupa) Hi Sarah, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "sarahprocterabbott" wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" > wrote: > > You gave the example of a person not existing by drawing an > analogy > > of a chariot not existing (being broken into component parts). I > > believe that the first time this analogy was used is in the > opening > > section of Milindapanha (where Nagasena meets King Milinda > for the > > first time); this was written about 500 years after the death of > the > > Buddha (i.e. this analogy is not from the Suttas). > .... > S: Not quite correct: > > SN1:10 (Vajiraa) > The bhikkhuni Vajiraa replies to Maara: ===== You are correct. I took the lazy person's approach and checked the "index of similes" on "Access To Insight" and found no chariot references. (Ken H, you can add this to your list of complaints about ATI :-) ) ===== > ***** > > When I talk about early Buddhism, I am not including the > Kathavatthu > > (Points of Controversy) which was written 350 years after the > > Buddha's death. > ... > S: Remember the Mattika for this text was laid down by the > Buddha who forsaw events and knew when it would be the right > time for it and so on, i.e only after various controversies and > schisms arose. > .... ===== Not the strongest of arguments :-) :-) ===== > > My definition of early Buddhism includes the Vinaya > > Pitaka, the Sutta Pitaka and the earliest six books of the > > Abhidhamma Pitaka. The first six books of the Abhidhamma > Pitaka > > engage in an unbelievable level of analysis; mental states > (cittas), > > mental factors (cetasikas), material qualities (rupas), etc. But > > where in these original texts does it say that this analysis is for > > the purpose of differentiating what "exists" and what "does not > > exist"? According to Nyanatiloka's "Manual of Buddhist Terms > and > > Doctrines", the word "paramattha2 (ultimate reality) first > appeared > > in the Kathavatthu. > ... > S: The first book of Abhidhamma starts with detail on states that > are good, bad and indeterminate (kusala, akusala, avyakata) > and we continue to read in great detail, as you say about all the > paramattha dhammas. Rob, these realities are exactly the same > as those included in the 5 khandhas above, plus of course, > nibbana which is not dukkha. When we read something like > `which are the states that are good?', followed by an elaboration, > we could just as easily read `which are the existing states that > are good'. The meaning is identical. Your children will use slang > and jargon you don't use, but that doesn't mean we should be > hung up on the language when it comes to addressing the > meaning of what's being said. ===== Obviously the Abhidhamma (and many Suttas) are full of analysis (breaking things into parts). My point is that there are many reasons for doing analysis. I am not aware of any support for the position that the early texts did their analysis for the purpose of identifying what was real versus what was not real. When the Dhammasangani asks, "which are the states that are good", I do not interpret this as meaning "which are the ultimate realities that are good". Sarah, I hope that you can find a Sutta where the Buddha talks about realties or what exists versus what does not exist to prove me wrong. Metta, Rob M :-) 36505 From: robmoult Date: Fri Sep 17, 2004 3:05am Subject: Re: seeing two black objects side by side Hi Phil, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "plnao" wrote: > Today I was sitting idling away some time with one leg crossed over the > other. I saw my foot in the foreground of my field of vision, and a > wastepaper basket in the background. Because of perspective, they were about > the same size, and looked to be right next to each other. At the beginning, > were they two visible objects, seen with different seeing processes that > replaced one another in rapid alternation, or since they were so close > together were they one visible object that got separated into two objects by > the following processes that led to their being labeled? They were (still > are) both black. Would the processes have been radically different if they > were different colours? Or if they were in the same field of vision, but > much further apart? A "visible object" is that which presents itself to the eye in a fraction of a second; like a frame of a movie film. Of course, your attention will divide the visible object and focus on one aspect (foot vs. wastepaper basket). Does this help? Metta, Rob M :-) 36506 From: Herman Hofman Date: Fri Sep 17, 2004 3:28am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Scope of words Hi Sarah, ============= ... S: Remember the Mattika for this text was laid down by the Buddha who forsaw events and knew when it would be the right time for it and so on, i.e only after various controversies and schisms arose. ============= I do not think that it is possible to remember as a fact what is assumed by belief. If you wanted to make a true statement, you could say that, remember that such and such says that the Mattika for this text was laid down by the Buddha, or , remember that Theravadans generally believe that the Mattika etc. I think that if the exercise is to see things as they really are, it is essential to discern between beliefs, facts and realities in matters of convention. And despite all of that, I believe you are a gorgeous girl :-) Kind Regards Herman 36507 From: Herman Hofman Date: Fri Sep 17, 2004 3:31am Subject: RE: [dsg] Flip-flopping :-) :-) Hi Herman, op 15-09-2004 01:09 schreef Herman Hofman op hhofman@t...: > I hope you and your family are well. N: Thanks, we should not complain (Dutch, in Brabant: we moge nie moppere.) > 36508 From: christine_forsyth Date: Fri Sep 17, 2004 3:40am Subject: AZITA & JILL Hello Azita and Jill, If you are reading this, please check your inboxes. I need a prompt reply for accom. broker re bkk. metta, Chris 36509 From: Herman Hofman Date: Fri Sep 17, 2004 4:02am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Theory and Practice _Sukin & Htoo Hi Sukin, Sorry to butt in. The H is for Herman, not Htoo :-) ============== S > Firstly, there is no control as to what concepts will be the object of citta at the moment. ============== H > I disagree if you are making a statement of fact. The Buddha described and repeated a hundred times over what states you will experience if you ever proceed to following his recommendations re jhana. It is precisely because of conditionality that these same states arise when you follow in his steps. Time and again. Without fail. It may be worthwhile to examine the aversion of the c word (control)? ================ Sukin: I don't think there can be any control as to what will be the object of citta and whether there will be right or wrong view with regard to it. Actually, I have reservation with regard to any `idealistic' attitude about developing Mahasatipatthana even in daily life. I feel this way because it can condition the idea of `self' and `control'. In a day if there is no satipatthana at all, it is good to know this, better than then following some practice and risk having a false idea of achievement and progress. ================ H > Are you unaware, even with hindsight, that your daily life is full of activity in which you are creating and maintaining your self-belief with vigour and determination? And this is preferable to any sort of activity, regardless of how highly praised by the Buddha, because a self might be hiding in it? I really have to laugh, Sukin. You are a funny fellow :-) =============== S > It is time to go and pick up my son from school. So please excuse my leaving out the rest of you post. And please keep going with this discussion. :-) ========== H > The truth is you don't *have to* do anything. But you do lots of things, because you want to. And that's fine by me. But please, don't control the car while driving, it could condition the idea of self :-) Kind regards and thanks for the laugh :-) Herman 36510 From: Catalin Date: Fri Sep 17, 2004 3:26am Subject: Re: [dsg] 21 questions about Buddhism sarah about wrote: > S: You've received many excellent answers from RobM, Htoo, KenH and also > from Herman to one. Please let us know what you make of the responses and > follow up on any of particular interest - maybe in separate threads if > need be. All answers I have received on this list and other lists where very helpful. Right now I am studying the materials from the sites some pointed at and then I will study the writings from the Pali Canon and other writings considered important by various schools. I am also trying to meditate which is not very easy for me as a beginner. I am still receiving answers on these and other lists. > Catalin, besides following up or adding any further comments to the > replies, please let us know a little more about yourself, such as > where you live, if you feel inclined. I live in Romania in the city of Ploiesti. The informations I have found about Buddhism in Romania are about the existence of Vajrayana (http://www.calea-de-diamant.ro/index-en.html), Jodo Shinshu (http://www.shinbuddhism.ro/en/index.html), Zen (http://www.zen.rdsnet.ro/) and a Vipassana meditation center (http://www.meditatie.ro/ehome.htm ) but none of them existing in my city and most of them not even close. I am mostly interested in Theravada Buddhism but also teachings from other schools (like Zen and Tendai and some schools from China) seem interesting. If anyone in here knows more about Buddhism in Romania , please let me know. Thank you all for help, Catalin 36511 From: plnao Date: Fri Sep 17, 2004 4:27am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: seeing two black objects side by side Hi Rob Thanks as always for your help. > A "visible object" is that which presents itself to the eye in a > fraction of a second; like a frame of a movie film. Of course, your > attention will divide the visible object and focus on one aspect > (foot vs. wastepaper basket). > > Does this help? So the initial visible object would be everything in the field of vision - to continue the movie analogy the establishing shot - and then attention would divide the whole field and start focusing on individual aspects? Such as the black colour? And then the contour (?), or other aspects of rupa that I don't know about, and then finally mental processes would put things together and come up with "shoe?" And this would be going on lickety split for everything in that one "shot", if you will? For the wastepaper basket. For the poster on the wall. For the floor. The light. You can see that I don't understand this sort of thing at all. And once it was established as "shoe", would that perception fall away every moment and have to be re-established? Is that what sanna does, maintaining comprehension of an object in a way that prevents the need to keep getting it again and again and again and....? Thanks in advance. Metta, Phil 36512 From: Dan D. Date: Fri Sep 17, 2004 4:57am Subject: [dsg] Re: 21 questions...[Herman: "how you will see..."] Herman: "The determination of what an event means, or how it is going to affect us, is always open. Nothing is good or bad in itself, until the determination/judgement is made." The kamma/vipaka theory goes a a step further, viz. painful and pleasant physical sensations are caused by past bad/good action. It is usually not possible to trace back as far as "this bad thing caused this bad result" or "this good thing caused this good result", but, the theory goes, the pain from the tree falling on your leg is a result of your bad kamma. This is something that, in my current state of ignorance, I find hard to swallow. Dan 36513 From: Date: Fri Sep 17, 2004 1:17am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner13-Introduction(j) Hi, Azita (and Sarah) - In a message dated 9/17/04 12:25:49 AM Eastern Daylight Time, gazita2002@y... writes: > Dear Sarah, > I have a question, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott > wrote: > >Dear Friends, > > > >Cetasikas by Nina van Gorkom. > > > ......... > The realities of our life, including out > >defilements, should be understood as not self. So long as we take > >defilements for self or "mine" they cannot be eradicated. The direct > >understanding of realities as non-self is the condition for not > doing > > evil, for cultivating the good and for purifying one's mind. > >***** > > > How does this direct understanding become a condition for 'us' > to do no evil, etc? > It sort of makes sense to me, but as there are still defilements > _surely there are still the conditions for them to arise, and do > evil? no? > Maybe the evil performed is a lesser degree than if no > understanding. Maybe I've answered my own question!!! ------------------------------------------------ Howard: If I may hazard a guess: The statement was not that recognizing that defilements are not-self is sufficient for their removal, but rather is *necessary* for that. It is one requisite condition, because "so long as we take defilements for self or 'mine' they cannot be eradicated" - that is, so long as they are taken as personal and intrinsic, removal is blocked. And I think that is so for clear psychological reasons - whatever is viewed as "self" is viewed as undivorcible (if that is a word ;-). ------------------------------------------------- > > Patience, courage and good cheer, > Azita. > > ========================= With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 36514 From: plnao Date: Fri Sep 17, 2004 5:20am Subject: Re: Basic citta processes (was Re: [dsg] Re: 'Cetasikas' study corner7-Introduction(d)) Hi Rob Going back to this thread while taking a look at your book and thinking about this question that I asked before: Phil: > > As we know, akusala is much more prevalent than kusala. so let's > talk > > about that. > > So, if I'm correct, there is all this vipaka akusala rising, and > then all > > this "fresh" javana akusala > > arising? Because of proliferation, is there always much more > akusala citta > > produced in > > javanas than the akusala vipaka citta that is fed into the > process? Phil: Well, I'm looking at p.20. I read Rob's book: "if one has akusala accumulations, the javana mental states will: * cling to the object (lobha accumulations) * have aversion to the object (dosa accumulations) * be indifferent to the object ( moha accumulations) Phil: Akusala accumulations are in the citta, right? Let's say the object is a lovely Canadian flag, with its red maple leaf proudly blowing, strong and free. The lobha that has been accumulated because of other objects unrelated to the flag rises in response and causes clinging to the object? Could it be lobha that has accumulated from an unrelated object that arises in response to the Maple Leaf? Or is lobha from Maple Leaf flags in the past that has been accumulated and arises in response to a newly risen Maple Leaf flag? Are lobha accumulations specifically related to certain objects or is it just a general accumulation of lobha that clings to anything that one clings to? Sorry if that doesn't make any sense whatsoever. Now, I know "natural decisive support condition" must come in here. I read on: Rob's book: "In other mental states, volition has a role of coordinating the functions of the citta and cetasikas.In the javana mental state, volition also creates kamma. The weightiness of the kamma produced depends on the strength of the volition. Natural decisive support determines the strength of the volition and therefore the weightiness of the kamma." Now I know there is disagreement within DSG about whether each volition creates kamma or not. But leaving that aside....I take it that the stronger the natural decisive support condition, the stronger the volition will be, and if it is strong enough, it will lead to kamma of deed. I might even take the flag down from its flagpole, and march down the street, waving it proudly, which is a very akusala thing to do. But short of deed, I will still proliferate. And the stronger the natural decisive support condition is, the stronger the volition will be and the more proliferation it will cause. I will proliferate a lot in response to a Canadian flag, and not so much in response to a French flag because natural decisive support condition is not nearly as strong for the latter? And all that will be decided in the javanas. I guess I'll leave it there. Am I getting closer? Metta, Phil 36515 From: robmoult Date: Fri Sep 17, 2004 5:33am Subject: [dsg] Re: 21 questions...[Herman: "how you will see..."] Hi Dan / Herman, I hesitate to enter into this exchange because it is likely to get time consuming, but... --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Dan D." wrote: > Herman: "The determination of what an event means, or how it is going > to affect us, is always open. Nothing is good or bad in itself, until > the determination/judgement is made." > > The kamma/vipaka theory goes a a step further, viz. painful and > pleasant physical sensations are caused by past bad/good action. It > is usually not possible to trace back as far as "this bad thing > caused this bad result" or "this good thing caused this good result", > but, the theory goes, the pain from the tree falling on your leg is a > result of your bad kamma. This is something that, in my current state > of ignorance, I find hard to swallow. Kamma does not cause a tree to fall. Trees fall because of many natural conditions but kamma is not one of them. The rupa that is sensed in the five-sense-door process has an intrinsic quality of being: - undesireable (anittha) - moderately desireable (ittha) or desireable neutral (itthamajjhatta) - extremely desireable (ati-ittha) In the case of the tree falling on the leg, the sensation of pain would be intrinsically undesireable (anittha). The intrinsic nature of the rupa will determine the type of sense-consciousness citta, the type of receiving citta and the type of investigating citta. In the case of an intrinsically undesireable rupa (the sensation of pain), the sense-consciousness citta, the receiving citta and the investigating citta will be of the "akusala vipaka" type. Note that though the citta is called "akusala" it has no ethical quality; it has no roots. Following the investigating citta is the determining citta which is functional (kiriya), not associated with kamma. The javana cittas which arise in this sense door process will depend on accumulations. In most beings, the javana cittas will be dosa-mula; resulting in bad kamma being created. In some cases, the cittas may be lobha- mula; also resulting in bad kamma being created (note: the case of lobha-mula javana cittas with an intrinsically undesireable object is a perversion of perception, sannavipallasa). A few beings will note the rupa as it truly is (anicca, dukkha, anatta) and the javana cittas will be kusala. Of course, the accumulations of a Buddha or Arahant will cause functional javana cittas to arise, not creating any kamma at all. Once this initial sense-door process has run its course, there will be hundreds of thousands of mind-door processes which mentally proliferate. In the case of the painful rupa, the mental process will likely be swept away in a stream of dosa-mula cittas. Metta, Rob M :-) 36516 From: Date: Fri Sep 17, 2004 1:38am Subject: Re: [dsg] What is Meditation ? Hi, Sarah - In a message dated 9/17/04 4:47:53 AM Eastern Daylight Time, sarahprocterabbott@y... writes: > Thank you for posting the extract from Qus of King Milinda and for your > interesting post (well-received as Howard said;-)). > ====================== In looking back at the material, I retract the disclaimer portion of my post a bit. What I was addressing was what I considered the core of what Nagasena was putting forward - the *thinking over* of impermanance etc. I think that was his main thrust, and I take issue with that intellectual approach as a *primary* one, though I also recognize its importance as necessary support for directing the mind. However, I do realize, especially upon rereading, that there is more that was given by Nagasena. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 36517 From: robmoult Date: Fri Sep 17, 2004 5:39am Subject: [dsg] Re: seeing two black objects side by side Hi Phil, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "plnao" wrote: > > Hi Rob > > Thanks as always for your help. > > > A "visible object" is that which presents itself to the eye in a > > fraction of a second; like a frame of a movie film. Of course, your > > attention will divide the visible object and focus on one aspect > > (foot vs. wastepaper basket). > > > > Does this help? > > So the initial visible object would be everything in the field of vision - > to continue the movie analogy the establishing shot > - and then attention would divide the whole field and > start focusing on individual aspects? Such as the black colour? And then > the contour (?), > or other aspects of rupa that I don't know about, and then finally mental > processes would put things together and come up > with "shoe?" And this would be going on lickety split for everything in that > one "shot", if you will? For the wastepaper basket. For the poster on the > wall. For the floor. The light. > You can see that I don't understand this sort of thing at > all. > And once it was established as "shoe", would that perception fall away every > moment > and have to be re-established? Is that what sanna does, maintaining > comprehension of > an object in a way that prevents the need to keep getting it again and again > and again and....? In response to this question, I am going to ask you to look at page 23 of my book. Normally, I would write out the answer but in this case there is a nice diagram on page 23 that might help. Metta, Rob M :-) 36518 From: Date: Fri Sep 17, 2004 1:47am Subject: Re: [dsg] seeing two black objects side by side Hi, Phil - In a message dated 9/17/04 5:50:19 AM Eastern Daylight Time, plnao@j... writes: > P.S Is a question mark two visible objects or one? > > ========================== As I view it, a "seen" question mark is neither one visible object nor two, but is a *mental* object, constructed by mind by a complex processing of multiple visual objects and acts of sa~n~na. Each visual object, per se, takes in an entire field of vision with all its complexity, seen but unanalyzed, and other mental synthetic and analytic operations provide the rest. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 36519 From: Ken O Date: Fri Sep 17, 2004 5:48am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Citta as experiencing, to Dan. Hi Howard I think sense process can only be valid when there is sense is being contacted. To say that not seeing exist that in context only we are talking on other people experience. Just like a blind man knows he is blind because others told him they could see. In fact to him seeing is not in existence. Just like the 8NP, it exist just that only when Buddha is around, it is only known. So darkness only exist because there is no light. So there is no seeing in darkness. It is just darkness. What is darkness - to me is a concept :) Hope you can forgive my feeble attempt to explain. Nonetheless they are great questions and that is why I opened my mouth again :). I will still think of these questions again and again. Maybe one of these day I could provide u a better answer :) Till then only the six senses matter as always emphasis in the suttas and abhidhamma, other then that, I treat the rest as cocepts (these concepts are latent tendecies and the three roots want u and me to believe :)) Cheers Ken O > > > > > > Ken O > > > ======================== > No, I don't think they differ just conceptually. They are > quite > different - truly different, and alike only in both being absences. > > With metta, > Howard 36520 From: Date: Fri Sep 17, 2004 1:54am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Scope and Focus (About Rupa) Hi, Rob (and Sarah) - In a message dated 9/17/04 6:02:59 AM Eastern Daylight Time, rob.moult@j... writes: > >S: Remember the Mattika for this text was laid down by the > >Buddha who forsaw events and knew when it would be the right > >time for it and so on, i.e only after various controversies and > >schisms arose. > >.... > > ===== > > Not the strongest of arguments :-) :-) > > ======================= Well, recall that U.S. President G.W. Bush has coined the phrase 'faith-based initiative'. So, if that has the presidential imprimatur, who are we to question it?! ;-)) Sorry, Sarah - I just couldn't resist - Mara made me do it! ;-)) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 36521 From: plnao Date: Fri Sep 17, 2004 5:55am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: seeing two black objects side by side Hi Rob > In response to this question, I am going to ask you to look at page > 23 of my book. Normally, I would write out the answer but in this > case there is a nice diagram on page 23 that might help. Very helpful chart. As I've mentioned here recently, my retention of things I read seems very low these days and I had forgotten all about it. I see that I wrote a note in the margin intending to ask you whether there were Pali terms for the "grasping the object as a whole" process, for example, and the other ones. Of course there are. I find knowing the Pali terms is very helpful in many cases. I also see I wrote "where in manual?" probably meaning where I can find this chart in the Manual of Abhidhamma? It is certainly very helpful, but these terms aren't nearly as familiar as other process words such as "adverting" and "determining" and so on. Where would "grasping the object" and "recognizing the colour" fit in with such more familiar terms as receiving, investigating, determining etc, I wonder. Are the latter sense-door terms and the former mind-door terms? Rob, I've pestered you enough tonight. Thanks so much. I'll be off now. Have a great weekend. Metta Phil 36522 From: Ken O Date: Fri Sep 17, 2004 5:55am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:Samatha, Vipassana, Anicca...Nibbana & Discussion ( 01 ) Rupa does not feel without Citta - so unpleasant bodily feeling must have citta. Anyway we always forget habitual effects :). Even our bodily dont feel pain does not meant our mind does not feel it because latencies are always there. Just like a person who lost their arms always have the problem forgetting the lost arms. Just like when we know we have a terminal illness, latencies will always influence us on loss, fear, sadness even before we actually die. How do we end up like this bc of latencies and the three roots. This is another great question. Just my two cents Ken O > > +++++++++++++++++++++++++ > > > the conducting nerve is already blocked. > > > > > > The conditions are there. He has his body parts. He is > conscious. > > > There is touch object repeatedly tapping him. > > ...+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > > I'd say there are no conditions for the body consciousness vipaka > > cittas > > to arise and experience the rupas. We know there has to be > > body-sensitivity as a condition for this as well as the impact of > > the > > rupas. This was discussed recently in a Vism segment. > > > > +++++++++++ > Dear Sarah, > Venerable Nyanatiloka > wrote on a different aspect about having an operation: > "Once a well-known Buddhist author, in a discussion with me, to my > greatest surprise positively declared that there may be painful > feeling without consciousness, for example during a painful > operation > whilst being under chloroform. This indeed is a most > extraordinary > blunder. How will it ever be possible to feel pain without being > conscious of it? Painful feeling is a mental phenomenon and as > such > inseparable from consciousness and the other mental phenomena. If > > we > do not perceive pain, and are not conscious of pain, how can we > feel > pain? Thus consciousness, feeling, perception and all the other > mental > phenomena are mutually conditioned by way of co-nascence." > http://www.skepticfiles.org/mys5/fundamen.htm > robert > > > 36523 From: Date: Fri Sep 17, 2004 2:02am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Citta as experiencing, to Dan. Hi, Ken - In a message dated 9/17/04 8:50:35 AM Eastern Daylight Time, ashkenn2k@y... writes: > Hi Howard > > I think sense process can only be valid when there is sense is being > contacted. To say that not seeing exist that in context only we are > talking on other people experience. ============================ My apologies, Ken. Could you please restate these first two sentences. I cannot grasp them. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 36524 From: robmoult Date: Fri Sep 17, 2004 6:12am Subject: Basic citta processes (was Re: [dsg] Re: 'Cetasikas' study corner7-Introduction(d)) Hi Phil, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "plnao" wrote: > Phil: Well, I'm looking at p.20. > I read > Rob's book: "if one has akusala accumulations, the javana mental > states will: > * cling to the object (lobha accumulations) > * have aversion to the object (dosa accumulations) > * be indifferent to the object ( moha accumulations) > > Phil: Akusala accumulations are in the citta, right? ===== Sorry, Phil. Accumulations are not in a citta. Accumulations influence the nature of citta that arises (through natural decisive support condition). ===== > Let's say the object > is a lovely Canadian flag, with its red maple leaf > proudly blowing, strong and free. The lobha that has > been accumulated because of other objects unrelated > to the flag rises in response and causes clinging to the > object? ===== To be technical, "craving" or tanha is the accumulation while "clinging" or upadana is the lobha. Updana conditions tanha through natural decisive support condition. ===== > Could it be lobha that has accumulated from an > unrelated object that > arises in response to the Maple Leaf? Or is lobha > from Maple Leaf flags in the past that has been accumulated > and arises in response to a newly risen Maple Leaf flag? ===== It works on multiple levels. When you start to meditate and watch your mind, you will notice how the mind jumps out to attach itself to any new sense data. A new sound arises and the mind rushes out like a hungry dog when it sees a bone. It chews on the bone for a bit and then gets bored. It starts looking for a new sensation to which it can attach itself. With such a restless unfocused mind, it is a miracle that we can learn anything and even pass school exams. It can't imagine how powerful the mind might be when it is not distracted! Getting back to the point... the mind craves sense objects and this causes clinging to sense objects. This is at the most basic level; it is what is meant by "sensual desire". As you can see from the diagram on page 23 of my book, the mind then grasps the object as a whole by taking multiple visible objects together. There is then a process of recognizing colour. We all know that colour has a deep primordial effect on the brain. The colour of red is perceived and there will then be craving and clinging associated with the colour red (at a slightly higher level). The next stage is to grasp and recognize the shape. The mind will be pleased when it can recognize the shape of the maple leaf (more craving and clinging at a yet slightly higher level). The mind likes to recognize things so that it can pidgeonhole things and make sense of things. When the mind recognizes the name of the shape (maple leaf), this is a condition for yet another level of craving and clinging. Now we get to the mental proliferation stage where we start thinking of the maple leaf as a symbol of our wonderful country, stirring feelings of patriotism. At this stage the craving and clinging goes through the roof! ===== > Are lobha accumulations specifically related to certain objects > or is it just a general accumulation of lobha that clings to > anything that one clings to? Sorry if that doesn't make > any sense whatsoever. ===== I think that I answered this question above. ===== > > Now, I know "natural decisive support condition" must > come in here. ===== Natural decisive support condition is what links craving to clinging. ===== > > I read on: > > Rob's book: "In other mental states, volition has a role of coordinating the > functions > of the citta and cetasikas.In the javana mental state, volition also creates > kamma. The weightiness of the > kamma produced depends on the strength of the volition. Natural decisive > support determines the > strength of the volition and therefore the weightiness of the kamma." > > Now I know there is disagreement within DSG about whether each volition > creates kamma > or not. But leaving that aside....I take it that the stronger the natural > decisive support condition, > the stronger the volition will be, and if it is strong enough, it will lead > to kamma of deed. ===== "Natural decisive support condition" describes a relationship between a conditioning state (strong past nama / rupa / concept) and a conditioned state (present nama). I think what you mean to say is that the stronger the conditioning state, the greater the impact on the conditioned state. ===== > I might > even take the flag down from its flagpole, and march down the street, waving > it proudly, which is a very akusala thing to do. ===== And I would be right there beside you, my friend... :-) ===== > But short of deed, I will still proliferate. And the stronger the natural > decisive support condition is, the stronger the volition will be > and the more proliferation it will cause. I will proliferate a lot in > response to > a Canadian flag, and not so much in response to a French flag because > natural decisive support condition is not nearly as strong for the latter? ===== Close, but not quite. See my clarifications above. ===== > And all that will be decided in the javanas. > > I guess I'll leave it there. Am I getting closer? > ===== I think so... Metta, Rob M :-) 36525 From: plnao Date: Fri Sep 17, 2004 6:14am Subject: Re: [dsg] seeing two black objects side by side Hi Howard Thanks for your feedback. Phil> > P.S Is a question mark two visible objects or one? > > > > > ========================== > As I view it, a "seen" question mark is neither one visible object nor > two, but is a *mental* object, constructed by mind by a complex processing of > multiple visual objects and acts of sa~n~na. Each visual object, per se, > takes in an entire field of vision with all its complexity, seen but unanalyzed, > and other mental synthetic and analytic operations provide the rest. > So the questions mark isn't really there until my mind puts it together through the processes we see in the chart Rob referred to in his book. There are countless cittas experiencing visible object - multiple visual objects as you say- that are assembled by the mind processes into a recognizable shape, and labeled. Multiple acts of sanna are in there, holding together this chain of evnts so processes can move forward. This is basic stuff, I know. It's about time I applied myself to it a bit. Metta, Phil p.s I know you don't like "cittas experiencing object." Still grateful to you for having made me think about what you see as the little self/subject implication. 36526 From: htootintnaing Date: Fri Sep 17, 2004 6:17am Subject: Re: Samatha, Vipassana, Anicca...Nibbana & Discussion ( 01 ) Connie: Dear Sarah and Htoo,I overstated when I said kamma includes "Any volitional act, from cetana directing the cetasikas of each citta... ". Surely, the cetana involved in resultant/vipaka and kiriya/functional can't be considered kamma. Think I'll see if I can't find a UP to keep me afloat. peace, connie ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Sarah, Connie, and All, I would say kamma is cetana which accompanied 29 javana cittas in the past. In the past include time which is not now and future. These 29 cittas are 1. 12 akusala cittas 2. 8 mahakusala cittas 3. 5 rupakusala cittas 4. 4 arupakusala cittas Cetana in other cittas?? I do not know. Once I asked Nina and she said both expressions are right. These 2 expressions are 1. Kamma is cetana in past 29 jvana cittas 2. Kamma is cetana in all 89 cittas With Metta, Htoo Naing 36527 From: matt roke Date: Fri Sep 17, 2004 6:25am Subject: [dsg] Flip-flopping Dear Dan and Nina, I hope you don't mind me contributing a thought or two. ==================== ==================== Dan> When you say, "We cannot imagine what it means to be without eye- consciousness," I beg to differ. There are many, many moments of hearing, thinking, tasting, etc. that are without eye-consciousness. Aside from word games about whether darkness is really the color black or whether it is "light dispells darkness" or "darkness dispells light", the experience of being without eye-consciousness is very common. In those moments there is no eye-consciousness, no light detected, complete darkness. ==================== All cittas are *dark* with the exception of the *light* cittas that experiences visible object. That means there are an amazing number of *dark* cittas in between the *light* cittas. And yet it seems as though there is seeing all the time without any gaps; visible object without anything in between. We can interlectually appreciate that there are numerous *dark* cittas in between *light* cittas but are we experiencing them? I sit here with visible object, sound, touch and thinking etc., arising and falling away. So many *dark* cittas and so few *light* cittas and yet I only experience the latter. ======================= ======================= Nina> As I said to Larry, it is such a good reminder, all those dark moments. ======================= If *the experience of being without eye-consciousness is very common* then we would not need to be reminded of them. ======================= ======================= Nina> "We cannot imagine what it means to be without eye-consciousness," ======================= I agree. When there is eye-consciousness there is not only an idea of seeing being ever present there is also a constant flow of thinking of objects that have been experienced through the eye door. Even if we were to go into a pitch black cave we would still not understand what it is like to be without eye-consciousness because there would still be concepts of a visible world outside the cave. MattR 36528 From: htootintnaing Date: Fri Sep 17, 2004 6:27am Subject: 21 questions about Buddhism ( 05 ) Dear Catalin and All, This is the 5th reply post to Catalin's 21 questions. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Catalin: 9) What is the difference between "attaining nirvana", "attaining buddhahood","becoming an arahat" and "attaining enlightment"? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Attaining nibbana is a final cessation. Attaining nirodha samapatti is a temporary cessation. Attaining arahatta magga nana is achievement of panna or wisdom how to transcend lokas including this world. Attaining Buddhahood is becoming the first arahat in loka. As he is very first, he can teach all how to be on the right path. Becoming arahat means becoming wise to transcend loka. He will one day in final cessation. Attaining enlightenment is attaining arahatta magga nana that is attainment of wisdom how to transcend loka. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Catalin: 10)If a person (like Buddha) attains nirvana then we does he keep having desires like eating, breathing, desiring to teach and help others, etc.? Shouldn't he just disappear or die when he reaches nirvana? And how can someone reach nirvana without the DESIRE and CRAVING to reach nirvana and the DESIRE and CRAVING to escape DESIRE and CRAVING? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Question is not clear. But, if you means why The Buddha had desires like eating, breathing, to teach and to help others, etc etc, this is very simple. Your word desire is not a good word to expound Dhamma. Dhamma here means reality. There is a reality that just wish and no attachment. This is called chanda. This is a powerful mental factor. This is the chief that push the Buddha-to-be Sumedho Hermit to practise to become a Sammasambuddha. This is not attachment. This is not lobha. Your question reveals that you are not fully aware of existing dhamma as they are. Desire and craving are different. Quite different. Totally different. May you be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 36529 From: htootintnaing Date: Fri Sep 17, 2004 6:25am Subject: 21 questions about Buddhism ( 04 ) Dear Catalin and All, This post is the 4th reply post to your 21 questions. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Catalin: 7)How can different ENLIGHTENED persons have different opinions about what the truth is and what is the best path to get there? If someone really becomes enlightened shouldn't he be able to see which one of the schools of Buddhism is the right one and guide people there? And how can enlightened people see the world in different ways when they should know the same truth? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Here you need to define 'ENLIGHTENED' persons. There is single truth and a single path. So your later part of question is not right to mention like that. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Catalin: 8)In Mahayana people take vows not to obtain nirvana and help other first...how can someone help someone else attain something that he doesn't have and he doesn't actually experienced for himself that the path he teaches is the good path? This reminds me about "If a blind man leads a blind man, both will fall into a pit." Isn't a better way to first attain nirvana like Buddha did and AFTER that help others? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: There are people who are fully enlightened. They do show the way as they walked. I am not clear of what you are talking about 2 blind men. Maybe you had approached a blind man in your experience. May you be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 36530 From: htootintnaing Date: Fri Sep 17, 2004 6:27am Subject: 21 questions about Buddhism ( 06 ) To continue: Catalin: 11)If when someone dies memories(soul/Atman) also die, then how come Buddha and others can remember past lives? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: This question just reveal that there is a strong wrong view. There are wrong views. Major wrong views are sassata ditthi and uccheda ditthi. The first is the view of eternity. This leads you that there is a soul, an Atman, memories. That soul leaves when a body dies and soul is permanent. The second view is that there is nothing after death. Because he thinks that there is no results of what he have done in this life and past lives. Based on this last view he may commit utterly wicked sins and unwholesome actions of everything imaginable. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Catalin: 12)How can a Lama know the future and predict where he will be reborn? Knowing future=no free will... ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I do not know Lama. There are people who know the future. This is according to things as they are and not of a miraculos things. May you be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 36531 From: robmoult Date: Fri Sep 17, 2004 6:28am Subject: [dsg] Re: seeing two black objects side by side Hi Phil, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "plnao" wrote: > > In response to this question, I am going to ask you to look at page > > 23 of my book. Normally, I would write out the answer but in this > > case there is a nice diagram on page 23 that might help. > > Very helpful chart. As I've mentioned here recently, > my retention of things I read seems very low these days > and I had forgotten all about it. I see that I wrote a note > in the margin intending to ask you whether there > were Pali terms for the "grasping the object as a whole" process, for > example, > and the other ones. Of course there are. I find knowing the Pali > terms is very helpful in many cases. I also see I wrote "where > in manual?" probably meaning where I can find this chart in > the Manual of Abhidhamma? It is certainly very helpful, but these > terms aren't nearly as familiar as other process words such as > "adverting" and "determining" and so on. Where would "grasping the object" > and "recognizing the > colour" fit in with such more familiar terms as receiving, investigating, > determining etc, I wonder. > Are the latter sense-door terms and the former mind-door terms? See p164 of BB's CMA: - Conformational process is called tad-anuvattaka manodvaraka-vithi - "Grasping the object as a whole" is samudayagahika - "Recognizing the colour" is vannasallakkhana - "Grasping the shape" is vatthugahika - "Recognizing the shape" is vatthusallakkhana - "Grasping the name" is namagahika - "Recognizing the name" is namasallakkhana The conformational process is a single process but the rest of the designations can represent hundreds of thousands of mind-door processes. Metta, Rob M :-) 36532 From: Date: Fri Sep 17, 2004 2:56am Subject: Re: [dsg] seeing two black objects side by side Hi, Phil - In a message dated 9/17/04 9:19:19 AM Eastern Daylight Time, plnao@j... writes: > So the questions mark isn't really there until my mind puts it together > through the processes we see in the chart Rob referred to in his book. > There are countless cittas experiencing visible object - multiple visual > objects as you say- that are assembled by the > mind processes into a recognizable shape, and labeled. Multiple acts of > sanna are in there, holding together this > chain of evnts so processes can move forward. This is basic stuff, I know. > It's about time I applied myself to it a bit. ---------------------------------------------- Howard: Yes, I think the foregoing is correct. The question mark per se is not "there" at first. However, balancing the picture: The internal structure of the visual content is a basis - it is there "waiting" for analysis. The internal relations are there awaiting potential bringing out by mental processing. Our recognition of patterns is not baseless, it is not created out of whole cloth, as the saying goes. A perspective of arbitrariness and completely ungrounded imposition of structure, ignoring the reality of relations and relational patterns, would be another extreme I believe. --------------------------------------------------------- > > Metta, > Phil > p.s I know you don't like "cittas experiencing object." Still grateful to > you for having made me think about what you see as the little self/subject > implication. > > > ========================= With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 36533 From: jwromeijn Date: Fri Sep 17, 2004 7:16am Subject: Re: What is Meditation ? Dear Nori and all --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "nori" wrote: > Hi Dhamma Friends, > > When most people sit for meditation, I think most people will perform > Anapana of some sort, or the various forms of Vipassana. > Nikayas, but is, when explicated, different from the general > agreement of what meditation actually is. > His definition of meditation is partly this: > A sustained and directed investigation into a chosen aspect of our > nature and reality. > This, I believe, includes processes of directed thought and > reflection (i.e. investigation and evaluation), in addition to direct observation. > Hallo Nori and all This summer we had a retreat given by a Birmese Abhidhamma master and many times het used the term 'contemplation'. Our (dutch Theravadin) understanding of it was that it is something else than vipassana (mindfullnes) or samatha (absorption, jhanas). It is thinking about a (Dhamma-)text, thinking so the text had not to work like a 'mantra' in Tibetan meditations; it's not 'free thinking', the thinking is 'confined' in the text and I had to do it without getting an opinion. I think the 'method' you are talking about can best be described with the term CONTEMPLATION. Other members of this DSG are better equipped to translate this thinking-meditation-contemplation process in terms of the Abhidhamma psychology (as far as the Abhidhamma is a psychology). To give an example I think of the contemplations of Nyanaponika about the Four Brahmavihara's. I quote the first one, about metta (he translates it with 'love', I prefer 'loving kindness') "Love, without desire to possess, knowing well that in the ultimate sense there is no possession and no possessor: this is the highest love. Love, without speaking and thinking of "I," knowing well that this so- called "I" is a mere delusion. Love, without selecting and excluding, knowing well that to do so means to create love's own contrasts: dislike, aversion and hatred. Love, embracing all beings: small and great, far and near, be it on earth, in the water or in the air. Love, embracing impartially all sentient beings, and not only those who are useful, pleasing or amusing to us. Love, embracing all beings, be they noble-minded or low-minded, good or evil. The noble and the good are embraced because Love is flowing to them spontaneously. The low-minded and evil-minded are included because they are those who are most in need of Love. In many of them the seed of goodness may have died merely because warmth was lacking for its growth, because it perished from cold in a loveless world. Love, embracing all beings, knowing well that we all are fellow wayfarers through this round of existence -- that we all are overcome by the same law of suffering. Love, but not the sensuous fire that burns, scorches and tortures, that inflicts more wounds than it cures -- flaring up now, at the next moment being extinguished, leaving behind more coldness and loneliness than was felt before. Rather, Love that lies like a soft but firm hand on the ailing beings, ever unchanged in its sympathy, without wavering, unconcerned with any response it meets. Love that is comforting coolness to those who burn with the fire of suffering and passion; that is life-giving warmth to those abandoned in the cold desert of loneliness, to those who are shivering in the frost of a loveless world; to those whose hearts have become as if empty and dry by the repeated calls for help, by deepest despair. Love, that is a sublime nobility of heart and intellect which knows, understands and is ready to help. Love, that is strength and gives strength: this is the highest Love. Love, which by the Enlightened One was named the liberation of the heart, the most sublime beauty: this is the highest Love. And what is the highest manifestation of Love? To show to the world the path leading to the end of suffering, the path pointed out, trodden, and realized to perfection by Him, the Exalted One, the Buddha." Metta Joop 36534 From: ericlonline Date: Fri Sep 17, 2004 7:58am Subject: [dsg] Theory and Practice - Sarah Hey Sarah, :-) S> Just a quick note to say I greatly enjoy your good-humoured posts and discussions with Jon, Sukin and others. I've been meaning to say this for a long time. Please continue to challenge them. You have a great way with words (loved the `unwrapping one', but not handy to re-quote, so I'll choose a couple of recent ones). You are too kind Sarah. S> I'm also chuckling a little as little do you realize that Jon seldom has time to open his books and Sukin has told me he has a carpet of books in an upstairs room which he seldom opens either;-). You mean they have memorized all this arcane stuff! A virtual bookstore in their minds. No wonder they have no time to meditate, all the filing they have to do in their virtual libraries. ;-) PEACE E 36535 From: htootintnaing Date: Fri Sep 17, 2004 9:46am Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 064 ) Dear Dhamma Friends, When in the 4th arupa jhana or in n'evasanna-nasanna-yatana jhana, citta in that jhana is so subtle to be recognised. This jhana seems to be the highest of all states of mind. Because it is free of any akusala and defilements and it is very still. However, as in cases of other jhana cittas, when this jhana is put into training to become much much more proficient by contemplating, accessing, determining, emerging, scrutinising, there may be found that this 4th arupa jhana is also not a good one as it is close to the 3rd arupa jhana akincinnayatana jhana. Even though this jhana is the highest and still like a stone, in real it is not steady because it is close to akincinnayatana jhana and this again may step down and down and down till to the bottom. There is weakness in this citta, in this jhana. There does exist weakness in this jhana. But even though there is weakness, jhanas are free of defilements at least temporarily. So it is a good idea to train jhanas to be proficient. After completion of proficiency training, each jhana is assessed and scrutinised one after another. As been in jhanas, cittas are pure. Cittas and their arammana or objects are examined one after another. All ajjhatta dhammas are checked one after another. Then all bahiddha dhammas are checked one after another. As been in jhanas in and out, there is a complete pureness in moral conduct and complete pureness of cittas are also seen. After checking inside and outside dhammas, there notices that there are feelings and these feelings are not the same in each of jhana cittas. These feelings are not the same ones even in the same jhana. These feelings are not separate dhammas but they arise with each arising citta. Cittas are seen along their illusionary path. As cittas are seen, their properties or their arammanas are also seen. Some properties are close to mind and easy to understand while others are not. Some are rough and some are subtle. They have different qualities. Even though they each have their distinctive qualities, they do not last and they are actually vanishing. There are nama dhamma and there are rupa dhamma and they are seen separately even though they seem mixed and difficult to separate out. There are not arising without reasons but as they do have causes they have to arise. Even though they arise, they vanish very rapidly. Their vanishing is so rapid that they all seem to be just vanishing. As everything is disappearing all the time, it is really frightening. It does not worth to live in the mid of such shocking things. These things are dispassionated and disregarded. It becomes needed to be liberated from such essenceless things. Apart from dispassionating and disregarding, there is nothing to do with them and no need to respond them and they are not worthy to interact and they are not worthy to deal with. There arises strong dispassion and this dispassion makes the things to be detached. There is continuous mindfulness working. The effort is disregarding all past bad-doing as it is forwarding to dispassion. Continuous mindfulness with thorough investigation definitely stop further bad- doing. Good minds are being developed and already developed things are being put into proficiency. There is complete stillness. This stillness is accompanied by a strong will and deep wisdom. The Path becomes clearer. There arises a good faith. As Path is clearly seen, there is no disturbance. The continuous mindfullness feeds the deep wisdom who is investigating into all dhammas. Unlike the joy in former jhanas there arise distinctive joy and this rejoices and freshens all the time. There is complete calm and free of worry. There will not withdraw or withhold at this stage. The stillness is more than stone more than mountain. These come in balance. The Path is clear and as on the Path, there is none that goes wrong. There is clear idea, clear thought and these make meaningful actions and through this Path as there are all necessary things already, there arises up to the peak and at the peak there is a complete dispassion and bad things are dropped and there is an absolute peace just seen. Defiles are seen and understood. But these have been there in the samsara for a long time and their clearance cannot be done at a single moment. So they have to be clear away and wipe out repeatedly. With repeated voiding, finally there left none. As soon as none as defilement left, the mind becomes the purest one ever. As there exist defilement for indefinite time, they are to be cleared away with 4 stages of clearing. Here magga nanas clear away step by step. Nibbana or nirvana means no binding. Nirvana = ni + vana. Ni means no, not and vana means tie, bind. So nibbana is total unbinding. Nibbana is dimensionless and timeless and without any space. It is free from space and time. So those who fuse into nibbana are totally and completely released and liberated from avijja and tanha or craving. Rivers are a large collection of water flowing into ocean. Once in the river, the flow takes those in the river to the ocean. Nibbana is like ocean and it is more than ocean. Initial arrivers who see nibbana for the first time are said to be in the flow. Sota means the flow of river. Aapatti means 'to reach'. Sotaapatti means 'to reach the flow of river'. That is to the ocean nibbana. There arise the 1st magga citta when there is a clear Path made up eight components. This 1st magga citta in its full name is called 'sotaapatti magga kusala citta'. It is 82nd citta of 89 cittas in total. It is lokuttara kusala a citta. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome and they will be valuable. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts. 36537 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Sep 17, 2004 10:06am Subject: The Removal of Distracting Thoughts, no 13. The Removal of Distracting Thoughts, no 13. Sutta: ...that bhikkhu is called a master of the paths along which thoughts travel. The thought he wants to think, that, he thinks; the thought he does not want to think, that, he does not think. He has cut down craving, removed the fetter, rightly mastered pride, and made an end of suffering." The Blessed One said this, and the bhikkhus glad at heart, approved of his words. ***** The Commentary states that he has become most skillful as to the course of his thoughts and that the Buddha herewith wanted to show the characteristic of such skill. Formerly this bhikkhu did not have the thoughts he wished to have, and those he did not wish to have arose. But since he had become skilled it is different: what he wants to think of, he thinks of, and what he does not want to think of he does not think of. He has eradicated conceit. The Co. refers to the Discourse on all the Cankers (M.N. no 2). N: The arahat has eradicated conceit and all other defilements. The arahat has no more conditions for akusala cittas. Instead of kusala cittas he has kiriyacittas (inoperative cittas) accompanied by sobhana cetasikas (beautiful mental factors). When we are thinking, the javanacittas in a process are kusala cittas or akusala cittas, but more often akusala cittas. Even when we have wholesome thoughts, there are likely to be many akusala cittas arising shortly after the kusala cittas. We tend to take akusala and kusala for self. The arahat has no conditions to be infatuated or distracted by akusala cittas. He is not troubled by restlessness, worry or doubt. However, he had to go a long way and needed patience and perseverance to fully develop paññaa. The bhikkhu in this sutta had to use all available means and finally he had to have heroic fortitude to attain arahatship. In each Sutta satipatthana is implied, because through satipatthana, the development of vipassana, the truth of anatta can be realized.The teaching of anatta is exclusively the Buddha¹s teaching. That is why the Commentary emphasizes the development of vipassana time and again. The goal is the eradication of all defilements, but the wrong view of self has to be eradicated first. We are thinking with lobha, attachment, dosa, aversion and moha, ignorance, because these unwholesome roots have not been eradicated. The Buddha explained several ways of abandoning unwholesome thinking by wholesome thinking. However, we should realize that there is no self who can be master of his thoughts. We can learn this by the development of understanding of naama and ruupa, by the development of insight. If we develop conditions for kusala without satipatthana we still have the wrong view of my akusala and my kusala. We may think of the akusala citta that has fallen away and worry about it. But, how can that which falls away immediately be self or mine? As was taught in the story about the frightened rabbit, the Bodhisatta who was the King of the Lions said to the rabbit not to be afraid, and to find out the real cause of his fear. Evenso the bhikkhu had to go to the root of his defilements. When we learn that akusala is a conditioned naama devoid of self, it can be faced with insight, we should not be afraid of it. Even though we are full of defilements there is a way to reach the goal. It is paññaa that sees the disadvantage and danger of all akusala, wrong view included, and the benefit of kusala. This Sutta and Commentary can encourage all of us in our long journey towards the end of the cycle of birth and death. The good counsels the Buddha gave with great kindness and compassion to the monk can be applied by all those who develop the eightfold Path, each in his own situation. We can gain confidence that the development of insight eventually leads to the end of defilements. But we have to begin at this moment. ***** (The end) Nina. 36538 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Sep 17, 2004 10:06am Subject: Re: [dsg] Deeds of Merit - Paying respect to the Triple Gem helps in eradication of defilements Hi Phil, While paying homage at the holy places in India we can remember the highest way of respect to him, also while expressing our reverence by body and speech. There are nama and rupa appearing also at such moments. Otherwise the paying of respect, the kusala citta, is . In that case the wrong view of self will not wear out. Of course, we should not try to be aware with an idea of self. This is always around the corner. But it is good to know this. Nina. op 17-09-2004 00:49 schreef plnao op plnao@j...: > A moment of investigation of > realities - in other words, a moment of mindfulness - is a moment of paying > respect to the Buddha. That will help me to appreciate the importance of a > single moment of mindfulness. > 36539 From: ericlonline Date: Fri Sep 17, 2004 10:22am Subject: Re: [dsg] 21 questions about Buddhism Hey Catalin (and Sarah), C> ...Right now I am studying the materials from the sites some pointed at and then I will study the writings from the Pali Canon and other writings considered important by various schools. I am also trying to meditate which is not very easy for me as a beginner. Follow the threads that your understanding finds to the end and you will do just fine. Dont worry about meditation, it is hard even for those who have done it for awhile. But you hit on something here. It is so easy to read and conceptualize. It is very difficult to sit and forget who you are and what you want. That is why many here do not meditate. If they succeed they lose their self and their Matrix of theories and if they fail... well, who wants to continually fail! It seems so much more pleasant to dream a life as a Buddhist then awaken and be Buddha. PEACE E 36540 From: htootintnaing Date: Fri Sep 17, 2004 1:54pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Theory and Practice _Sukin & Htoo & Herman Herman: Hi Sukin, Sorry to butt in. The H is for Herman, not Htoo :-) ============== S: Firstly, there is no control as to what concepts will be the object of citta at the moment. ============== Herman: I disagree if you are making a statement of fact. The Buddha described and repeated a hundred times over what states you will experience if you ever proceed to following his recommendations re jhana. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Htoo: Herman is right Sukin. Herman you are right, here. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Herman:It is precisely because of conditionality that these same states arise when you follow in his steps. Time and again. Without fail. It may be worthwhile to examine the aversion of the c word (control)? ================ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Htoo: Beautiful idea. If water is heated to 100 degrees Centigrade, it boils. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Sukin:I don't think there can be any control as to what will be the object of citta and whether there will be right or wrong view with regard to it. Actually, I have reservation with regard to any `idealistic' attitude about developing Mahasatipatthana even in daily life. I feel this way because it can condition the idea of `self' and `control'. In a day if there is no satipatthana at all, it is good to know this, better than then following some practice and risk having a false idea of achievement and progress. ====================================================================== Herman: Are you unaware, even with hindsight, that your daily life is full of activity in which you are creating and maintaining your self- belief with vigour and determination? And this is preferable to any sort of activity, regardless of how highly praised by the Buddha, because a self might be hiding in it? I really have to laugh, Sukin. You are a funny fellow :-) ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Htoo: Sukin is not funny. But you Herman is really funny. When I saw your post to Sukin, my satipatthana gone away for a moment and instead funny feeling arose. It last 20 seconds. :-)) ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ =============== S: It is time to go and pick up my son from school. So please excuse my leaving out the rest of you post. And please keep going with this discussion. :-) ========== H : The truth is you don't *have to* do anything. But you do lots of things, because you want to. And that's fine by me. But please, don't control the car while driving, it could condition the idea of self :-) Kind regards and thanks for the laugh :-) Herman ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Htoo: I will be looking forward to hearing Sukin. When I typed this post, I did not control anything. But nama and rupa arose and fell away. :-)) With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 36541 From: htootintnaing Date: Fri Sep 17, 2004 1:58pm Subject: Re: 21 questions about Buddhism --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "ericlonline" wrote: Dont worry about meditation, it is hard even for those who have done it for awhile.But you hit on something here. It is so easy to read and conceptualize. It is very difficult to sit and forget who you are and what you want. That is why many here do not meditate. If they succeed they lose their self and their Matrix of ..snip..then awaken and be Buddha. PEACE E ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear E, Who here do not meditate? Why? Is that because of your that is? Htoo Naing 36542 From: Andrew Levin Date: Fri Sep 17, 2004 3:15pm Subject: OK, Abhidharma Hi, This message is direction towards anyone who can answer and especially Nina who is capable and helpful towards us all. Regarding Chapter four of Nina's 'Abhidharma in Daily Life,' There is craving in the lobha-mula-cittas. How do we eradicate this lobha, this craving. I was told previously that mere recognition of the citta can decrease its bearing on the mind. But how are we to root out the craving. Is it the same for craving? From my current understanding, only when we are seeing things in the present as impermanent and selfless will there be no craving present. Please correct me if this is not the case. Next, is wrong views. This is something that captures my interest. The book I am trying to practise out of, a commentary on the Maha-satipatthana sutta, states that we need knowledge of Abhidharma for the third foundation of mindfulness, that is, contemplation of mind. Now I have felt that I could recognize one of these wrong views, ditthis, as it arose in me. If I could recognize which citta it accompanied, even better (this should happen as I memorize the different types of citta). But how am I to know which wrong view it is, ie an eternal self wrong view (further, does this eternal self wrong view hold that the body is a self, or does it apply to all phenomenon?), the annihilation self view, and wrong view about kamma and vipaka, thinking purification can come about through rites and rituals. Especially the last one, I wouldnt be able to recognize that such a wrong view was present in my mind. Can we know it just by its characteristics, I mean, there is nothing in particular jumping out saying "Here I am, wrong view, that doesn't believe in the power of karma", there is just a ditthi present, that's all. And also, perhaps my knowledge of this would increase when I get to a more advanced place in the book, does absence of wrong view indicate right view is present? I wouldn't think so. So how do we go about instilling right view in ourselves? For instance, the Buddha has said right view is 'undistorted vision' of the existence of this world, the next, of preist and contemplatives who have discovered this, of fruits and results of good and bad actions, and things of that nature. There is also the wrong view of seeing 'self' in things. The latter type can be annihilated through meditation, I believe, but that only works to an extent on the former. I have had experiences in my meditation that have given me pretty good confidence that there is a next world, but the rest of it is lacking. I have heard it said that we can straighten our views by questioning monks and reading good dhamma books, but I plainly don't see how this is the case. It seems to me it should be experiential, ie, when you give, you should know that there is something given, you should know there is mother and father. Frankly, I don't see how a discussion with a preist could instill vision within someone of the next world. Confidence, maybe, but this is more similar to my mere logical view "There is fruit and result of good and bad actions," which is not in fact vision but only memorized from scripture. So, straightening wrong views is a topic that I'd like to hear more about, and I'd also like to learn about the nature of views, right or wrong, themselves. Thanks guys, andrew levin 36543 From: dighanakha Date: Fri Sep 17, 2004 2:15pm Subject: Re: "... as parasites a tree." ??? Hello Sarah, Continuing again, with apologies for the delay. At the beginning of your post your expressed bemusement at the term 'fundamentalist'. As I keep referring to the dsg hardcore by this term I think I should define what I mean by it. I would not like you to think that I'm calling you a bunch of nitwits or Al Qaida terrorists or something. For future reference, this is what I have in mind: "One who affirms a religious textual authority as holistic and absolute, admitting of neither criticism nor reduction, and to be interpreted only literally." S > We can find a summary of the full story at this link: S > http://www.palikanon.com/english/pali_names/ku/kunaala_jat_536.htm S > Kunala Jataka (No.536) But it would be better to read the original (that is, if one feels a need to read it at all) since there are inaccuracies in the summary. S > Here is part of it: S > Kunala, king of the Citrakokilas, though well served by his S > hen birds, always despised them and found fault with them. S > The king of the Phussakokilas, Punnamukha, on the other S > hand, always sang the praises of his escort. One day the two S > kings met, and Punnamukha asked Kunala why he was not more S > gracious to his ladies. "Because I know too much about S > women," was the answer; but Punnamakha was not in a mood to S > discuss the matter any more. This is the actual exchange: Punnamukha: "Why do you, friend Kunala, behave so ill to these high-born ladies of rank, though they themselves are well-conducted. One ought, friend Kunala, to speak pleasantly even to ladies who are themselves ungracious in speech: much more so to those who are gracious." [When he had so spoken, Kunala abused Punnamukha after this manner, saying...] Kunala: "Perish vile wretch, yea, perish utterly. Who is to be found like you, won over by the prayers of womenfolk?" [on being thus reproached the cuckoo Punnamukha turned back] ___________________________ Which of the cuckoos' views best accords with the Sutta's teaching on right speech and on a man's proper conduct towards his wife? S > Later, Punnamukha fell ill, and his hen birds deserted him S > and came to Kunala. He drove them away, ministered to S > Punnamukha, and cheered him. No. This does an injustice to the cuckoo hens. When Punnamukha fell ill, the cuckoo hens flew to Kunala *to get help* ("This cuckoo is ill, peradventure he may be raised up from his sickness..."), not to desert him. Kunala then abused the hens and drove them away because this was just the way he thought all females should be treated. S > Some time after, Kunala, seated on the Manosilatala in S > Himava (according to Buddhaghosa, D.ii.675, this was on the S > banks of the Kunaladaha), started to tell his friend of the S > wickedness of women. Hearing of this, many inhabitants of S > numerous worlds came to listen to him, among them Ananda, S > king of the vultures, and the ascetic Narada. Though it's not very important, this also is not quite correct. It makes it sound like he was just informally chatting with his friends and then a bunch of others showed up. But as I mentioned the other day, the talk is depicted as one that was preceded by heavenly proclamations, the gathering of a grandiose assembly etc. S > Many were the instances given by Kunala to illustrate the S > deceitfulness, ingratitude and immorality of women. S > Kunala's diatribe was followed by Ananda's, and his by S > Narada's, each claiming to speak from facts within their S > knowledge. S > In the stories related by Kunala, the bird-king is S > identified with one of the characters concerned in each S > story, so that he was able to speak with authority. This S > Jataka was related in order to destroy the discontent that S > rose in the hearts of the Sakiyan youths, kinsmen of the S > Buddha, who, having entered the Order, were troubled by the S > thought of the wives they had left behind. The Buddha S > therefore took them to the Himalaya, showed them the S > magnificent beauty of the region, particularly the S > miraculous splendours of the Kunaladaha, and there preached S > to them. At the end of the Jataka they all became arahants. S > We are told that that very day they became arahants S > (J.v.412-56; also DA.ii.674ff; AA.i.173). S: I think it's important to note: S: 1) the Jataka verses and introductions carry little or no S: meaning without the Jataka commentary stories to which they S: refer. This seems a little over-stated to me. I would say that there are some Jataka verses which make no sense at all without the accompanying story, some which do make sense but might easily be misconstrued when separated from their context, and then others which are perfectly self-contained, rather like the verses of the Dhammapada. I think the ancient theras would agree with me here. They were using isolated Jataka verses to illustrate points as far back as the Kathavatthu and Petakopadesa. You recently gave us a link to one -- the Amara Dialogue from the Milindapanha. The Milinda is rich in out-of-context Jataka verses. [I've snipped the next couple of points, as I don't have anything to add to what Howard has said] S > 4) Indeed we don't need to wait til Jataka 536 to read about S > the foolishness of men. We can just open the texts at the S > very first Jataka (no 1) to read about truly foolish men who S > were taken by Anathapindika to listen to the Buddha who in S > the `thunderous tones as of a young lion roaring......in a S > voice of eightfold perfection, the charm of which ravished S > the ear, he preached to them the Truth in a discourse full S > of sweetness and bright with varied beauty." The men `rose S > up with hearts converted', threw away their other doctrines, S > took refuge in the Buddha, kept sila and the precepts and so S > on. But as soon as the Buddha left Savatthi, they returned S > to their old ideas and teachers. There is little to match S > the foolishness of such acts in my view. In previous lives S > it was the same. This isn't remotely analogous to the Kunala Jataka. They were men who abandoned the Buddha's Dhamma and Vinaya. There's no suggestion that they did so *because* they were men. S > Indeed the entire Tipitaka is full of tales about the S > foolishness and madness of wordlings -men and women. Nothing S > sexist about it, as Connie said. Connie suggested that it was "gender-irrelevant", citing the line: "Trust not a king because thou thinkst, 'My comrade once was he'". But the advice is that we proceed with caution because he's a king, not because he's a man. So it really won't suffice to establish gender-irrelevance. Perhaps I ought to state the reasons for which I describe the Jataka collection as being riddled with misogyny: If you have a printed edition of Cowell's translation look up "women" in the index and you'll find half a column of entries. Look up "man" or "men" and you will find none at all. This is not an oversight on the part of the editor. No entries for men are needed because there is not even one Jataka, or one part of a Jataka or even one stanza of a Jataka dealing with the subject of men per se, or men qua men; only with certain individual men. But as I mentioned in another post there are dozens dealing with the characteristics (invariably negative) that we should expect to encounter in women. When the Jataka stories depict a foolish or evil man, they depict him as a fool or a knave who happen to be male. His maleness is NEVER the issue, except in the stories where it predisposes him to lust after women. But the foolish or evil woman in the Jatakas is very often presented as being foolish or evil *because* she's a woman. The men are always INDIVIDUALS; the women are quite frequently TYPES, representatives of women in general. And the behaviour of certain *individual* evil women narrated in the prose is then asserted in the verses to be what we should expect of women in general. The moral lesson drawn from Jatakas about evil men usually consists of a recommendation to avoid some particular vice or folly. The moral lesson drawn from Jatakas about evil women very often consists of a recommendation to avoid (distrust, disbelieve shun etc.) women in general. I do not see how anyone could read the Jatakas with an open mind and fail to notice that the treatment of the sexes is totally asymmetrical. To see for yourself I suggest you read Volume V, which for some reason (maybe the scribe had colic?) has the greatest concentration of these woman-hating Jatakas. S> I got quite lost in all the details of the Kunala Jataka and S> commentaries (partly because I was watching the news while I S> looked at it;-), but I take these as good reminders of how S> dangerous and powerful anusaya (latent tendencies) are in both S> men and women and how precious is the opportunity to develop S> wisdom with detachment now. Otherwise we just continue endlessly S> in Samsara in our foolish ways, even if some of these tendencies S> are not so very obvious in this life. Hmmm. Well I guess that's one way one might take it. I was paying more attention to what the cuckoo was advising us to do. Here's a summary of his advice (from the verses only). FOR MEN: Beware of women. Never trust your wife to go to the house of a (male) friend. Don't credit anything they say. Don't cultivate the acquaintance of women who are intelligent, nor those who are attractive, popular, married, or parasitical. Don't trust a woman because you think she likes you, nor because she is given to crying in your presence. Don't trust a woman even if you have had ten children with her. Once you understand what women are really like, flee from all of them. Shun women everywhere. FOR WOMEN Drop dead! (nassatha) Go to hell! (vinassatha) Dig >> And was the cuckoo Kunala (the Bodhisatta) right in advising Dig >> that we not credit anything a woman says? S> Certainly in this example;-): S> 'Later, Punnamukha fell ill, and his hen birds deserted him S> and came to Kunala. He drove them away, ministered to S> Punnamukha, and cheered him.' Certainly not in this example ;-) As mentioned above, the summary you cite is a baseless calumny on the hens' good intentions. Sincerely, Dighanakha Nutcracker _____________________________ Truly, Master Gotama, I am of this persuasion, of this view: 'everything is not pleasing to me.' (Diighanakha Sutta) 36544 From: Herman Hofman Date: Fri Sep 17, 2004 3:43pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Flip-flopping Hi everyone, Just a general post re seeing colour and brightness. It is not a reply to anyone or anything specific. Anapanasati is a great thing to do. You take a seemingly simple thing like breathing and discover that it is such a complex web of events that defy description. The same can be done with seeing. Some things that you can observe when practicing sati of seeing. There are two eyes. The eyes have lids. They can be closed and opened independently in degrees, with and without awareness of volition. They can be focused and unfocussed in degrees, with and without awareness of volition. They can move around. There is no normal "state" of the eyes. Every level of focus is an act. Every directional movement of the eyes is an act. Now the interesting thing relating to our discussion is that when you walk out into daylight from an enclosed area, you squint. With a bit of analysis you understand that squinting is not about colours. The eyes squint and the lids partially close because of another factor. A photo of the same situation does not cause squinting. One never squints at a painting. There is a factor missing in paintings and photos. That factor is conventionally known as luminousity or brightness. On the way to acquiring a nimitta, the practioner, with eye lids firmly closed, may experience bright flashes. This is an experience of raw luminousity. Would sati of eating certain dishes be called satesati :-) Cheers, everyone Herman 36547 From: robmoult Date: Fri Sep 17, 2004 4:02pm Subject: Recognizing Wholesome Mental States Hi All, According to the Abhidhamma, all wholesome mental states are: - Confident (saddha): There is confidence in the value of wholesomeness. One might call this "faith", but this faith is not blind. This confidence pushes aside any doubt in the mind. - Mindful (sati): The mind is not confused or distracted. The mind is in the present and it is connected with what is happening at the moment. - Driven by conscience (hiri): Driven by self-respect, the mind is guided by a sense morality to do what is wholesome. - Afraid of doing wrong (ottappa): Driven by a respect for others, the mind follows the golden rule, "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you" - Greedless (alobha): The mind is not looking to satisfy itself. When this factor is strong, there can be generosity (dana) or renunciation (nekkhamma). - Without aversion (adosa): The mind is pleasant and agreeable. When this factor is strong, there can be loving kindness (metta) or patience (khanti). - Balanced (tatramajjhattata / upekkha): The mind cannot be dragged into clinging or aversion. - Tranquil (passaddhi): The mind has a peaceful, cool calmness; it is not agitated or restless. - Agile (lahuta): The mind is light and quick to respond to opportunities to do good things. Agility has a stimulating influence on tranquility and tranquility has a moderating influence on agility. - Elastic (muduta): The mind is pliable enough to swim "against the stream" of the unwholesome habits that tend to sweep the mind along. - Adaptable (kammannata): The mind is not so rigid as to make it difficult to transform and at the same time, it is not so pliable as to make it too impressionable. Elasticity is a fundamental condition of adaptability and adaptability sets a limit to the amount of elasticity desired. - Proficient (pagunnata): The mind performs with skill, like an Olympic athlete. Proficiency gives agility the sureness and smoothness of movement that comes from long practice. Agility, the capacity to adapt, prevents proficiency from becoming an inflexible habit. - Upright (Ujjukata): The mind is sincere. Uprightness prevents the agility and elasticity of the mind from falling into insincerity. Agility and elasticity ensure that uprightness does not grow unimaginative and rigid to impair adaptability. According to the Abhidhamma, on occasion, some wholesome mental states can be driven by: - Avoidance of wrong speech (vaci-duccarita virati) / Avoidance of wrong action (kaya-duccarita virati) / Avoidance of wrong livelihood (ajiva-duccarita virati): When opportunities for wrong speech, wrong action or wrong livelihood arise, a wholesome mental state can arise that abstains from them. This can be momentary avoidance in spite of opportunity or as part of a precept. - Compassion (karuna): When one sees helplessness in those overwhelmed by suffering, compassion can arise. This is the opposite of cruelty. - Sympathetic Joy (mudita): When one sees another's success, sympathetic joy can arise. This is the opposite of envy and jealousy. - Wisdom (panna): Whenever we perform deeds of generosity (dana) or observe morality (sila), wisdom may or may not arise. However, when we apply ourselves to mental development (bhavana), which includes studying the Dhamma, teaching the Dhamma and meditation, wisdom will always arise. Metta, Rob M :-) 36548 From: plnao Date: Fri Sep 17, 2004 4:14pm Subject: Re: [dsg] OK, Abhidharma Hi Andrew > This message is direction towards anyone who can answer and especially > Nina who is capable and helpful towards us all. Ph: She certainly is. We're very fortunate. > Regarding Chapter four of Nina's 'Abhidharma in Daily Life,' > There is craving in the lobha-mula-cittas. How do we eradicate this > lobha, this craving. I was told previously that mere recognition of > the citta can decrease its bearing on the mind. But how are we to > root out the craving. Is it the same for craving? From my current > understanding, only when we are seeing things in the present as > impermanent and selfless will there be no craving present. Please > correct me if this is not the case. Ph: I'm sure Nina and others more knowlegeable than myself will be answering, but in the meantime your question (as always) helps me to solidify my own understanding. And I will quote Nina to do so. There are different degrees of "seeing" things as impermanent and selfless. We should be realistic in understanding to what degreee we will see reality in a way that eradicates craving in this lifetime. Here's Nina from Chapter 4: "Since lobha is rooted so deeply, it can only be eradicated in different stages. Ditthi has to be eradicated first and then the other kinds of attachment can be eradicted. The sotapanna has eradicated ditthi." Ph: So I guess you show good understanding by focussing on the idea of straightening wrong views as you do below. Please note what follows on p.52. The once-returner and never-returner eradicate different aspects of lobha, but "only the arahat has eradicated lobha completely." There is a long, long joureny ahead of us. Countless lifetimes. Patience is central. That's how I take it. Patience about the idea of "no craving present" because that won't happen for a long, long time, but certainly pressing ahead with diligence as you are with respect to straightening wrong views. I don't know if you saw it - you probably did because anyone sensible would would read each and every one of Nina's posts with keen attention, but yesterday she was talking about sammalobha, the subtle form of lobha which is inevitable and doesn't harm others. Let's see if I can find it. Here it is: >>>>N: Fear is no good, it adds more dosa to the latent tendencies of dosa. Rob K also wrote about the three cycles of kamma, vipaka and kilesa (defilements). This is in the Commentaries. I have to check Visuddhimagga (Ch XVII). Kamma produces a result in the form of vipaaka. We like or dislike vipaaka and this is defilement. Defilement motivates kamma and this produces vipaka and so on. We also can look in the Dispeller of Delusion, Sammohavinodani. But I also remember A. Sujin: sammalobha and visammalobha. Rob K wrote about it. Sammalobha: slight lobha, liking food, looking at trees. The countless, countless unnoticed moments of lobha after a moment of seeing right now, hearing right now. Think of all the javana cittas in the processes! Or thinking with neutral feeling: just thinking about a cup. This is usually with lobha, unless there is dana, sila or bhavana. It is sammalobha, you do not harm others. This is not the same as evil kamma. When reading about Kamma patha in the Expositor I see the specific conditions mentioned to make it a completed action. There are many degrees of kamma. (end quote) Ph: I take this in an encouraging way. Your "no craving present" is not something that we should expect any day soon. Aiming for it in this lifetime might suggest wrong view of self that can do things that the Buddha teaches are impossible. Metta, Phil 36549 From: connieparker Date: Fri Sep 17, 2004 4:29pm Subject: age of wisdom Hi, Vis fans, Just curious. In 'Intro Vis. 83' Nina wrote that "The age from forty to fifty is the most favorable age to develop wisdom according to the Visuddhimagga". Does anyone happen to know where? peace, connie (at 47) 36550 From: christine_forsyth Date: Fri Sep 17, 2004 4:27pm Subject: Re: "... as parasites a tree." ??? Hello Dighanakha, all, (Interesting I.D. - being the name of the one who attained Stream Entry at the same time and from the teaching of the same sutta which conditioned in the Great Disciple Sariputta the attainment of Arahatship.) I have the hard copy (7 volumes) "The Jaataka or Stories of the Buddha's Former Births" ed. E.W. Cowell trans. H.T. Francis. The Ku.naala-Jataka No. 536 p.219-245. I am interested in watching how this thread proceeds ... I had not seen this Jataka previously. It is certainly quite disturbing. I have checked the General Index for the terms Men and Women. You are correct - not one mention of Men, and a score or more of mainly disparaging references to Women. Previous discussion of the style and authority of the Jatakas revolved around the Vesantara Jataka - revered throughout Asia, but causing consternation in Australia :-) http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/22444 You may be interested - or not - in previous discussions surrounding 'Negative aspects of the Buddha's teachings about women' from the Anguttara Nikaya - a little harder to set aside than the Jatakas .... http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/19461 metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "dighanakha" 36551 From: htootintnaing Date: Fri Sep 17, 2004 4:29pm Subject: Re: Recognizing Wholesome Mental States --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" wrote: > Hi All, > > According to the Abhidhamma, all wholesome mental states are: > - Confident (saddha): There is confidence in ..snip.. - Elastic (muduta): The mind is pliable enough to swim ..snip.. > - Proficient (pagunnata): The mind performs with skill, like an > Olympic athlete. Proficiency gives agility the sureness and ..snip.. studying the Dhamma, teaching the Dhamma and meditation, wisdom will always arise. Metta, Rob M :-) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sadhu Sadhu Sadhu! Well said Engineer Rob. With Metta, Htoo Naing PS: I am considering ujjukata or ujukata 36552 From: plnao Date: Fri Sep 17, 2004 4:31pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Deeds of Merit - Paying respect to the Triple Gem helpsin eradication of defilements Hi Nina I'm feeling very encouraged by the way gratitude to the Buddha is arising more and more often in my daily life. I mentioned that train ride in which I was feeling awful about some very unwholesome behaviour, but which was turned around when gratitude to the Buddha for teaching the way out of unwholesomeness. And it has been arising a lot, at unexpected times. Awful when conditions come about that allow me to reflect on a certain teaching. (These days I am very fond of ANVIII 6, the Lokavipattti Sutta, about the eight worldly concerns.) The old idea of self that is gaining wisdom and becoming the kind of person who can quote suttas is still there, certainly, but I am confident that there is something better at work - the conditioned arising of right understanding that is gradually eradicating defilements. And there is such gratitude to the Buddha. BTW, I rarely visit temples here in Japan to pay homage because I have too many prejudices about aspects of Japanese Buddhism that interfere. (Not good that my prejudices interfere.) But I was moved to tears by the golden Kannon at Hase temple in Kamakura. I wonder if you have visited it? Or if you could tell me about any other temples you were deeply impressed by during your time in Japan. Perhaps it would inspire me to make some pilgrimages of my own while you are all in India. Metta, Phil ----- Original Message ----- From: "nina van gorkom" To: Sent: Saturday, September 18, 2004 2:06 AM Subject: Re: [dsg] Deeds of Merit - Paying respect to the Triple Gem helpsin eradication of defilements > > Hi Phil, > While paying homage at the holy places in India we can remember the highest > way of respect to him, also while expressing our reverence by body and > speech. There are nama and rupa appearing also at such moments. Otherwise > the paying of respect, the kusala citta, is . In that case the wrong > view of self will not wear out. Of course, we should not try to be aware > with an idea of self. This is always around the corner. But it is good to > know this. > Nina. > op 17-09-2004 00:49 schreef plnao op plnao@j...: > > > A moment of investigation of > > realities - in other words, a moment of mindfulness - is a moment of paying > > respect to the Buddha. That will help me to appreciate the importance of a > > single moment of mindfulness. 36553 From: plnao Date: Fri Sep 17, 2004 4:40pm Subject: Deeds of Merit - rendering service to parents Hello all More from "Deeds of Merit" by Sujin Boriharnwanaket, available at http://www.zolag.co.uk/meri2.html Today we move on to the next area of siila, rendering service. It seems to be closely entwined with the previous deed of merit, paying respect: S. : We read in the Gradual Sayings (II, Book of the Fours, Ch VII, 3, Equal with Brahmaa) about the benevolence parents have for their children and the kindness children should show their parents. The text states that the Buddha said to the monks: Monks, those families where mother and father are worshipped in the home are reckoned like unto Brahmaa. Those families where mother and father are worshipped in the home are ranked with teachers of old. Those families where mother and father are worshipped in the home are ranked with the devas of old. Worthy of offerings, monks, are those families where mother and father are worshipped in the home. Brahmaa, monks, is a term for mother and father. Teachers of old, monks, is a term for mother and father. Devas of old, monks, is a term for mother and father. Worthy of offerings, monks, is a term for mother and father. Why so? Because mother and father do much for their children, they bring them up, nourish and introduce them to the world. Parents are Brahmaa called, teachers of old, Worthy of gifts are they, compassionate Unto their tribe of children. Thus the wise Should worship them and pay them honours due, Serve them with food and drink, clothing and bed, Anoint their bodies, bathe and wash their feet. For service such as this to parents given In this life sages praise a man, and he Hereafter has reward of joy in heaven. A child who is good is not merely aware of the benevolence of his parents, but he should also be respectful towards them, and he should support them in every way. Moreover, being respectful towards ones parents and giving support to them is, apart from being the duty of a good child, a way to eliminate ones defilements. One eliminates defilements by the development of the meritorious actions which are paying respect and helping. (end quote) metta, phil 36554 From: plnao Date: Fri Sep 17, 2004 4:44pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Deeds of Merit - Paying respect to the Triple Gem helpsin eradication of defilements Hello all >Awful when conditions come >about that allow me to reflect on a certain teaching. Another funny typo that contains truth! Metta, Phil 36555 From: htootintnaing Date: Fri Sep 17, 2004 4:53pm Subject: Rob M'sTheory Behind The Buddha's Smile ( 05 ) by Htoo Dear Rob M and All, Theory Behind The Buddha Smile by Rob M at Files section. Page 22, in the box. 1.A fruit falls = A mango falls. I would say a mango falls. Because he knows that he is sleeping under a mango tree. 2.The man removes his headcovering = The man opens his eyes. I would say eyes open. This is direct equivalent to cakkhuvinnana citta. 3. The man inspects the fruit = The man press and smell the mango. He already knows that it is a mango as he has been sleeping under a mango tree. But he investigates whether it is ripe or not by pressing and smelling. 4.The man understands that this is a mango ..= The man understands that the mango is ripe to eat. 5. The man notes the after-taste = The man swallows tasting remaining saliva which still has some taste of mango. 6. The man covers his head and falls back ..= The man closes his eyes and falls asleep again. Dear Rob, this is just thinking. May these criticisms be beneficial. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 36556 From: robmoult Date: Fri Sep 17, 2004 4:53pm Subject: Re: Recognizing Wholesome Mental States Hi Htoo, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" wrote: > PS: I am considering ujjukata or ujukata I wavered on this point as well. Now I think that I will use ujukata, since technically ujjukata only arises as part of a compound. Metta, Rob M :-) 36557 From: m. nease Date: Fri Sep 17, 2004 5:55pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: 21 questions...[Herman: "how you will see..."] Hi Dan, ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dan D." To: Sent: Friday, September 17, 2004 4:57 AM Subject: [dsg] Re: 21 questions...[Herman: "how you will see..."] > The kamma/vipaka theory goes a a step further, viz. painful and > pleasant physical sensations are caused by past bad/good action. It > is usually not possible to trace back as far as "this bad thing > caused this bad result" or "this good thing caused this good result", > but, the theory goes, the pain from the tree falling on your leg is a > result of your bad kamma. This is something that, in my current state > of ignorance, I find hard to swallow. It seems to me that, in the Suttas and the Jatakas and so on, kamma and vipaaka usually refer to what Nina calls 'stories', that is, events involving beings and so on (which are concepts of course). In the context of the Abhidhamma, of course, they refer to cittaani of two jaatis, whether kusala or akuasala--very different from events, past or present. (Of course this latter is nonsense to those who reject abhdihamma--the stories, concepts and their implications are all that matter). Any appreciable event must span truly innumerable cittaani, so of course it's impossible to sort out which may have led to what and so on--hence 'unconjecturability'. Even on the former level, the overwhelming preponderance of past events are beyond recall (for the vast majority of us), so to speculate that the event of the tree falling on your leg is the result of a specific past kamma must be sheer speculation. All of which means, I think, that you don't need to swallow anything... To me it more than suffices to know that kamma is volitional action (with its attendant implictions) and that vipaaka is simply vipaaka, without the implications of kusala, akusala or kiriya cittaani. I'm 'poor' now, so I was stingy earlier in this life, or ten or a gazillion lives ago? Who cares? I'd rather understand what's happening right now. Cheers, mike "There are these four unconjecturables that are not to be conjectured about, that would bring madness & vexation to anyone who conjectured about them. Which four? "The Buddha-range of the Buddhas [i.e., the range of powers a Buddha develops as a result of becoming a Buddha] is an unconjecturable that is not to be conjectured about, that would bring madness & vexation to anyone who conjectured about it. "The jhana-range of a person in jhana [i.e., the range of powers that one may obtain while absorbed in jhana]... "The [precise working out of the] results of kamma... "Conjecture about [the origin, etc., of] the world is an unconjecturable that is not to be conjectured about, that would bring madness & vexation to anyone who conjectured about it. "These are the four unconjecturables that are not to be conjectured about, that would bring madness & vexation to anyone who conjectured about them." Acintita Sutta Unconjecturable http://world.std.com/~metta/canon/anguttara/an4-77.html 36558 From: Date: Fri Sep 17, 2004 3:02pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: "... as parasites a tree." ??? Hi, Christine - In a message dated 9/17/04 7:33:25 PM Eastern Daylight Time, cforsyth1@b... writes: > You may be interested - or not - in previous discussions > surrounding 'Negative aspects of the Buddha's teachings about women' > from the Anguttara Nikaya - a little harder to set aside than the > Jatakas .... > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/19461 > > =========================== Yes. Harder to set aside, and most disheartening. I read the sutta material and the attempts on poster's parts to "explain," and the matter remains most unsettling. And yet I believe there *must* be an explanation other than the Buddha actually holding sexist views, very disparaging and upsetting views. Actually I think there is excellent reason for thinking that he could not hold such views, at least not as applying to women in general, as he recognized and asserted the ability of women to become arahants! If women in general were as described in some of these writings, that could not be so. So ... what can be going on? One possibility, of course, is that some of these writings *have* been corrupted, at least the more extreme of them. There is much evidence of some sutta corrupting, mostly consisting of mixings together, omissions, and so on. For me, this would be a "favored" explanation. Another possibility for some of the milder writings, and when the corruption explanation doesn't apply, might be that the Buddha was speaking to monks who had serious "sensuality problems," and, as a skillful means, though an extreme one, he made use of some of the current prejudices of the time and culture, and standardly part of the belief system of these monks, in order to shake them free from their obsessions. I must say, though, that this "solution" poses the other problems of putting the Buddha in the position of being a "deceiver" and in the position of possibly being harmful to women (and to men) by confirming bigoted understandings. So I have reservations about this as a plausible explanation. Of course, some might say that the Buddha simply was literally correct in what he said, and that part and parcel of being born female is also being born with the inclination towards a constellation of negative traits such as those described, traits that are often actualized, but not always, and *can* be and are often overcome. Presumably, under this scheme of "explanation," there are analogous negative traits for men, but there was no need to point them out to the monks very frequently. This is another "explanation" that is hard to accept and strikes me as a "surrendering" to some extent. The only thing that saves it a bit is the formulation that I gave of it involving merely *inclination* to traits rather than slavish vulnerability to them. The bottom line: I truly believe there really exist valid explanations that do not include bigotry or thoughtlessness or harmfulness on the Buddha's part, but I just don't know what they are. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 36559 From: Herman Hofman Date: Fri Sep 17, 2004 7:35pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: 21 questions...[Herman: "how you will see..."] Hi Rob, Dan, Thanks for your post. I appreciate what you are saying about the likelihood of this topic becoming time consuming. ============== R > Kamma does not cause a tree to fall. Trees fall because of many natural conditions but kamma is not one of them. ============== H > Great point ============== R > The rupa that is sensed in the five-sense-door process has an intrinsic quality of being: - undesireable (anittha) - moderately desireable (ittha) or desireable neutral (itthamajjhatta) - extremely desireable (ati-ittha) In the case of the tree falling on the leg, the sensation of pain would be intrinsically undesireable (anittha). The intrinsic nature of the rupa will determine the type of sense-consciousness citta, the type of receiving citta and the type of investigating citta. In the case of an intrinsically undesireable rupa (the sensation of pain), the sense-consciousness citta, the receiving citta and the investigating citta will be of the "akusala vipaka" type. ============ H > You and Sarah have previously written about the perversion of views, where what "should" be painful is pleasant and so on. That the idea of perversion needs to be applied to leave the theory intact is a bit dogmatic to me. But I remain open. ============ R > Following the investigating citta is the determining citta which is functional (kiriya), not associated with kamma. The javana cittas which arise in this sense door process will depend on accumulations. =========== H > Is the determining citta the seed for the javana cittas? Is the determination determined/conditioned by accumulations? The word accumulations seems pretty pivotal to the whole discussion, and any discussion of conditionality really. Could I ask you to write a short paragraph or two about accumulations, as seeds for further study (original Pali words would be much appreciated). Thanks and Kind Regards Herman 36560 From: robmoult Date: Fri Sep 17, 2004 8:11pm Subject: Natural Decisive Support Condition (pakatupanissaya) Hi Herman / Dan, A fundamental principle of Buddhism is that everything arises because of conditions; there is no God and no self to "decide" things. The Patthana, the seventh book of the Abhidhamma, explains conditional relations; ways in which one thing can be a condition for another. One of these modes of conditioning is "natural decisive support" (pakatupanissaya). Natural decisive support works as a condition when one of the following factors is present: - Strong past concepts - Strong past citta / cetasika - Strong past rupa "Past" not only includes experiences in the current lifetime, but also experiences from previous lifetimes. A concept, citta / cetasika or rupa can be "strong" when: - It was encountered frequently in the past (a past habit) - It was experienced very recently (bad news in one moment influences your reaction to something else in the next moment) - It was associated with very strong volition in the past (strong past impression or a solemn vow) "Strong past concepts, citta / cetasikas or rupa" are the conditioning factors, natural decisive support is the mode of conditioning, but what is conditioned? The texts explain that all 89 cittas and their associated cetasikas are conditioned. In other words, natural decisive support plays a part in the arising of every mental state. Though every single citta is influenced by natural decisive support, we can see that there are certain cittas where this conditioning by natural decisive support plays an important role: - Sense-door adverting: this citta controls the flow of the citta process and "decides" that a certain rupa will become the object of a citta process. Each of the senses is constantly bombarded with information; it is natural decisive support condition that "decides" which data will be processed. - Determining / mind door adverting: this citta controls the flow of the citta process and "decides" which type of javana (kamma producing) cittas will follow. Natural decisive support condition "decides" if our thoughts will be kusala or akusala. - Javana: these cittas create kamma. The weightiness of the kamma produced depends on the strength of the volition (cetana). It is natural decisive support that "decides" how strong the cetana will be and therefore the weightiness of the resulting kamma. - Jhana: The arising of the jhana citta depend on natural decisive support condition. It is this condition that "decides" when we should enter jhana. - Path: The arising of the supramundane cittas depend on natural decisive support condition. It is this condition that "decides" when we are ready to become a Sotapanna (or higher). The popular saying that "people are creatures of habit" is true. If we do metta meditation each morning, our mind naturally reacts with metta throughout the day. If we feel drawn to the Dhamma, it is probably because we studied the Dhamma in a past life and have accumulations to study the Dhamma in this life as well. If we are attracted to a person, it is probably because we have been associated with them in a past life (Yasodhara was the wife of the Buddha in a previous existence). If we have a "talent" in music or art, it is probably because of experience in past lives. There are hundreds of examples in the Suttas and commentaries where the character or circumstances of a person is linked to accumulations from a previous life. The ability to perceive a person's accumulations is one of the unique abilities of a Buddha (Arahants and others do not have this ability). At the time of the Dipankara Buddha, Sumedha the Hermit made a solemn vow that he would become a future Buddha. This solemn vow influenced the Bodhisatta for countless lifetimes. Sariputta and Moggallana were chief disciples of the Buddha and Ananda was the attendant of the Buddha because they had made solemn vows in previous lives that this was the role that they wanted to play. An understanding of how this law of nature called natural decisive support works can be a condition for the creation of kusala kamma: - We should look for opportunities to perform wholesome deeds. This searching for and planning a wholesome deed is, in itself, a wholesome deed. We should ensure that all wholesome deeds are done with strong volition, mindfulness and clear intention. We should review and rejoice in wholesome deeds performed and share the merits of our actions. Each of these activities creates good kamma and good accumulations; a condition to support the performing of more good deeds in the future. - When there is an unwholesome state of mind, we should note it with mindfulness. Seeing an unwholesome state of mind for what it is constitutes a wholesome action. Mindfulness arrests the process of mental proliferation (papanca); the multiplication of unwholesome states of mind. Practicing mindfulness on an unwholesome state of mind weakens the power of the accumulation that conditioned the unwholesome state. - We should understand the potential power of a solemn vow. To increase the potency of the vow, it should be made when the mind is clear and not troubled by restlessness. The creation of kusala kamma will bring pleasant results in the future, but it does not help us to escape from samsara. To escape from samsara, one must develop the accumulation of seeing things as they truly are (nama and rupa) and recognize the three characteristics of realities (anicca, dukkha and anatta). We are often deluded into believing in a "self that has control". Reflecting upon natural decisive support condition supports an understanding of anatta. To draw an analogy, gravity does not "decide" to cause something to fall; gravity is a law of nature. Natural decisive support is also a law of nature. Imagine a pile of rough gravel with a ball placed at the top. Gravity will cause the ball to fall and the laws of physics will determine the path that the ball takes as it rolls down. The path that the ball takes will be determined by many factors including the most recent bounce and any gullies that there may be in the gravel (i.e. accumulations). From this analogy, we can see: - It is almost impossible to predict, with accuracy how the mind will react (i.e. don't know for sure the path the ball may take) - There is no self in control (i.e. the natural laws of physics / natural decisive support condition is "in control") Metta, Rob M :-) 36561 From: robmoult Date: Fri Sep 17, 2004 8:20pm Subject: [dsg] Re: 21 questions...[Herman: "how you will see..."] Hi Herman / Dan, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Herman Hofman" wrote: > R > The rupa that is sensed in the five-sense-door process has an > intrinsic quality of being: > - undesireable (anittha) > - moderately desireable (ittha) or desireable neutral > (itthamajjhatta) > - extremely desireable (ati-ittha) > > In the case of the tree falling on the leg, the sensation of pain > would be intrinsically undesireable (anittha). The intrinsic nature > of the rupa will determine the type of sense-consciousness citta, > the type of receiving citta and the type of investigating citta. In > the case of an intrinsically undesireable rupa (the sensation of > pain), the sense-consciousness citta, the receiving citta and the > investigating citta will be of the "akusala vipaka" type. > > ============ > > H > You and Sarah have previously written about the perversion of views, > where what "should" be painful is pleasant and so on. That the idea of > perversion needs to be applied to leave the theory intact is a bit > dogmatic to me. But I remain open. ===== Sannavipallasa is not central to this discussion. Let's put it aside for now. ===== > > ============ > > R > Following the investigating citta is the determining citta which is > functional (kiriya), not associated with kamma. The javana cittas > which arise in this sense door process will depend on accumulations. > > =========== > > H > Is the determining citta the seed for the javana cittas? ===== The falling away of the determining citta is one of the conditons for the arising of the first javana citta. But which javana citta will arise depends on accumulaitons (via natural decisive support condition). ===== > Is the > determination determined/conditioned by accumulations? ===== All cittas can be influenced by accumulations through natural decisive support condition. ===== > The word > accumulations seems pretty pivotal to the whole discussion, and any > discussion of conditionality really. Could I ask you to write a short > paragraph or two about accumulations, as seeds for further study > (original Pali words would be much appreciated). Accumulations operate through natural decisive support condition. You are correct that natural decisive support condition is core to an understanding of the citta process. It is also the key to paticcasamuppada. I just posted a somewhat lenghty piece on natural decisive support condition. Metta, Rob M :-) 36562 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Sep 17, 2004 9:45pm Subject: the three rounds Dear Sarah, I found more texts. Vis. XVII, 298: with triple round it spins forever. But it is still very complicated: Formations and becoming (the active kamma process) are the round of kamma. Ignorance, craving and clinging are the round of defilements. Consciousness, nama-rupa sixfold base, contact and feeling are the round of result. And: Illustrator of Ultimate Meaning (Minor Readings and Illustrator), Ch VI, p. 208. What I find difficult is: we can also react with kusala citta to vipaaka. This is still the round of defilements? Also T.A. p. 296. I do not see it expressively stated that each akusala citta does or does not produce result. I think that akusala citta adds anyway to the latent tendencies. I once asked A. Sujin whether each akusala citta is of the intensity of kamma and as I remember her answer she did not think so. I asked the same about kusala citta: she said yes, it is kusala kamma. Except in the case that generosity is very weak: you think you will give but you do not. It is really the field of the Buddhas. A spelling correction: samalobha and visama lobha. Nina. 36563 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Sep 17, 2004 9:45pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Scope and Focus (About Rupa) Dear Rob M, The Dhammasangani starts the Matika: kusala dhammaa, akusala dhammaa, avyaakataa dhammaa. In this tripartite division, all dhammas are included. Also rupa and nibbana. Then the first sentence: katame dhammaa kusalaa (which are kusala dhammas), and it explains all the kusala cittas and sobhana cetasikas. What else but paramattha dhammas. But you do not need to use the word paramattha. You can also say: dhamma, whatever is real. You would like to see a sutta, well, you could look at: M III, no 115: Discourse on the Manifold Elements. All dhammas (also rupa and nibbaana) are classified here as elements, dhaatus, which are devoid of self. Nina. op 17-09-2004 12:02 schreef robmoult op rob.moult@j...: > When the > Dhammasangani asks, "which are the states that are good", I do not > interpret this as meaning "which are the ultimate realities that are > good". 36564 From: kenhowardau Date: Sat Sep 18, 2004 0:43am Subject: [dsg] Re: function, manifestation, etc. Dear Nina, Thanks for your help, but I really need to start again from the beginning: Does citta sometimes become the object of consciousness of ordinary people (including those who have never heard the Dhamma)? I won't ask my other questions now because they will be redundant if the answer is `no.' :-) Kind regards, Ken H --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > Dear Ken H, > > op 16-09-2004 09:48 schreef kenhowardau op kenhowardau@y...: > > > > I can understand that, but I didn't realise dhammas could be known > > only by their characteristics. Just to clarify: Are their > > functions, manifestations and proximate causes never directly > > experienced? > N: Take seeing. Its function is seeing, dassana kicca. It can be directly > experienced, but no need to think of function or manifestation. These are > merely taught to help us to have more understanding of seeing. It is a good > foundation of pariyatti to study these things. > 36565 From: htootintnaing Date: Sat Sep 18, 2004 4:05am Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 065 ) Dear Dhamma Friends, The 82nd citta of 89 cittas in total is sotaapatti magga lokuttara kusala citta. This citta arises only once and it never arises again. This is true for the whole samsara and even if the being is liberated and does parinibbana. In the series of cittas where sotapatti magga citta arises, the earlier cittas are loki kamavacara mahakusala cittas. While these mahakusala cittas are being matured and reach their peak, the ongoing cittas have to stop and bhavanga cittas all stop. Immediately follow is manodvaravajjana citta, which is the most able citta in selecting any kind of citta. Jhana, magga, and phala cittas have limitations in terms of arammana. Jhana, magga, phala never take kamavacara arammana. But manodvaravajjana does not have any limitation in terms of arammana. Now sotapatti magga citta is going to arise. First manodvaravajjana citta arises and it takes the object of mahasatipatthana. That is at this time seeing one of three characteristics of conditioned dhamma that is citta, cetasikas and rupas. After manodvaravajjana citta, there arise successively mahakusala cittas called parikamma, upacara, anuloma. These cittas are great cittas and they are the highest kamavacara cittas and they are quite close to lokuttara dhamma. After anuloma citta, there arises gotrabhu citta. Gotrabhu citta is still kamavacara citta and it is still a puthujana's citta here. But it is the last citta in puthujanahood. So it is also called lineage-changing consciousness. As soon as gotrabhu passes away, sotapatti magga lokuttara kusala citta arises. This is the 82nd citta of 89 cittas in total. After that 'sotapatti phala lokuttara vipaka citta' follows. There follow another two phala cittas and after that bhavanga cittas arise. These phala cittas are fruition consciousness resulting from sotapatti magga citta. This phala citta is 85th citta of 89 cittas in total. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta Htoo Naing PS:Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome and they will be valuable. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts. 36566 From: Date: Sat Sep 18, 2004 0:48am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: function, manifestation, etc. Hi, Ken (and Nina) - In a message dated 9/18/04 4:08:14 AM Eastern Daylight Time, kenhowardau@y... writes: > Dear Nina, > > Thanks for your help, but I really need to start again from the > beginning: Does citta sometimes become the object of consciousness > of ordinary people (including those who have never heard the > Dhamma)? > > I won't ask my other questions now because they will be redundant if > the answer is `no.' > :-) > > Kind regards, > Ken H > ========================== I think this is an interesting question. It is clear, I believe, that we are commonly and easily aware of many cetasikas. When we are distracted or concentrated or happy or sad or confident or fearful or liking or disliking, we typically know it, at least to some extent, albeit not usually very clearly or mindfully. But can we not also say that, at least to some extent, when we are seeing or tasting or smelling or hearing or having bodily feeling or cognizing, we are also aware (unreflectively) of that also? Now is that not being aware of awareness? And, for that matter, can there be awareness of cetasikas without the corresponding (direct and unreflective and non-commenting) awareness that "There is experience"? This sort of nondual awareness of awareness is rather much the normal state of affairs, I think, for human beings. The thing is: I don't think that the direct (i.e., uninferred) awareness of being aware amounts to taking of a mindstate or act of knowing as an object in a dualistic manner. In order for a mindstate or act of knowing to be an arammana in the sense of an object grasped by an act of knowing, there must be two simultaneous acts of knowing, the subject and the object, and I don't think that is an occurring situation. The fresh memory of a mindstate that has recently passed may be the content of a current mindstate, but other than that, awareness of awareness must be a subtle, nondual experience. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 36567 From: plnao Date: Sat Sep 18, 2004 5:17am Subject: Re: [dsg] 'Cetasikas' study corner14-Introduction(k) Hello all As a final question in the introduction - I guess it will be the final one - I think I'll ask something I've been wondering. How do cittas and cetasikas relate to Dhammapada 1:1? In the one translation I have on hand at the moment (Acharya Buddharakkhita) it is "mind precedes all mental states. Mind is their chief; they are all mind wrought. If with an impure mind a person speaks or acts suffering follows him like the wheel that follows the foot of the ox." When I looked at the pali for this, there were no words resembling citta or cetasika (I guess these terms aren't used in the suttas?) but the above sounds similar to the idea of citta being the king and cetasika being the...what was it...retinue? followers? How can this "mind precedes all mental states" be understood in the light of the book we are about to study? Thanks in advance. Metta, Phil ----- Original Message ----- From: "sarah abbott" To: Sent: Friday, September 17, 2004 5:53 PM Subject: [dsg] 'Cetasikas' study corner14-Introduction(k) > > Dear Friends, > > Cetasikas by Nina van Gorkom. > > http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html > http://www.zolag.co.uk/ > Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) > ========================================== > Introduction [contd] > ***** > In the chapters which follow I shall deal with fifty two different > types of cetasikas. I shall first refer to seven types of cetasikas which > accompany every citta. These are the Universals. > > Then I shall refer to six types of cetasikas which can arise with cittas > of four jatis, cittas which are kusala, akusala, vipaka and kiriya > (neither cause nor result), but which do not accompany each citta. These > are called the Particulars. > > After that I shall deal with the Akusala Cetasikas and finally with the > Beautiful (sobhana) Cetasikas . > > l shall deal with sati in Chapter 26. > ***** > [Introduction Finished!!] > > Metta, > > Sarah > ====== 36568 From: Date: Sat Sep 18, 2004 2:58am Subject: A Succinct Definition of 'Nibbana' Hi, all - In AN X.7, Sariputta is quoted as saying: "The cessation of becoming -- nibbana -- the cessation of becoming -- nibbana': One perception arose in me, friend Ananda, as another perception ceased. Just as in a blazing woodchip fire, one flame arises as another flame ceases, even so, 'The cessation of becoming -- Unbinding -- the cessation of becoming -- Unbinding': One perception arose in me as another one ceased. I was percipient at that time of 'The cessation of becoming -- Unbinding." I have read elsewhere that somewhere in the Samyutta Nikaya the Buddha says that the stopping of becoming is nibbana. Given this, a clear definition 'becoming' yields a clear definition of 'nibbana'. As I understand it, 'becoming' refers to kamma and kammic fruition; that is, to self-oriented volition and its leading onward to consequent states. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 36569 From: Bhikkhu Samahita Date: Fri Sep 17, 2004 11:40pm Subject: Back to Basics...!!! BlankFriends The All Good & Golden Rules: Do neither Kill nor praise Killing. Rather avoid taking any kind of Life. Also make others stop killing too by praising harmlessness & non- cruelty... Greatest is this Offer to the world of Beings: The safety from murder & assassination !!! The painful future karmic effect of Killing is short lifetime & violent non-natural death... Do neither Harm nor praise any kind of Harming, whether instrumental, mental, verbal or physical! Put down the stick, knife, sword & all weaponry. Indeed end now all violence, brutality & hostility. Still all aggression by praising mercy & peace. Greatest is this Offer to the world of Beings: The safety from injury, wounding & violent pain. The painful future karmic effect of Harming is non-curable disease, disability & loss of limbs. Do neither Steal nor praise any kind of Stealing. Avoid taking what is not freely given. Make others abstain from Theft by praising modesty & honesty. Greatest is this Relief to the world of Owners: The safety from loss, damage & undue costs. The painful future karmic effect of Stealing is loss, poverty, need, deficiency, hunger & thirst. Do neither abuse sexually nor praise any abuse. Avoid other’s partners & those engaged or protected. Make all others abstain from any sexual abuse too! Greatest is this Offer to the world of parents & lovers: The safety from deceit, exploitation, adultery & abuse. The painful future karmic effect of abuse & adultery is sexual abnormality, disability or worse. Do neither Speak False nor praise any kind of Lying. Rather avoid all Untruth & Falsehood and induce all others also to speak only Truth by praising sincerity. Greatest is this Praxis in the world of Beings: Honesty ensuring the confidence of trust among many beings. The painful future karmic effect of lying is being deceived, disrespected, lowly positioned or worse. Do neither drink alcohol nor praise any kind of intoxication that induce neglect, indolence, carelessness or heedlessness. Rather refrain from liquor & make all others abstain too. This is the optimal social habit of behaviour in the world of beings ensuring decency, sanity & sound reasoning. The painful future karmic effect of drinking is stupidity, insanity, madness, forgetfulness, poor memory or worse. There are these five gifts, five great offers, original, long-standing, traditional, ancient, unadulterated, unpolluted from the beginning, that are not open to suspicion, will never be open to suspicion, and are uncencured & praised by wise recluses & priests Details of The Five Buddhist Precepts (panca-sila): http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/pancasila.html Friendship is the Greatest ! Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. http://groups.msn.com/DirectDhamma http://uk.geocities.com/bhikkhu_samahita http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Buddha-Direct http://www.smartgroups.com/groups/TrueDhamma Dhamma-Questions sent to my email are quite Welcome. 36570 From: Ken O Date: Sat Sep 18, 2004 7:23am Subject: Re: Basic citta processes (was Re: [dsg] Re: 'Cetasikas' study corner7-Introduction(d)) Hi Rob M and Phil One characteristics of citta is accumulation. We cannot say accumulations are not in a citta literally. Technically it is not right . Ken O > > > Phil: Akusala accumulations are in the citta, right? > > ===== > > Sorry, Phil. Accumulations are not in a citta. Accumulations > influence the nature of citta that arises (through natural decisive > support condition). > 36571 From: Dan D. Date: Sat Sep 18, 2004 7:27am Subject: [dsg] Re: 21 questions...[Herman: "how you will see..."] Great to hear from you, Rob M! Please don't feel obligated to spend a lot of time in this discussion, but I hope you can at least help me a little with this theory. I'll first give the short version of my understanding of the issue. Short version: Akusala-vipaka cittas result from akusala cittas. The akusala-vipaka is morally neutral, i.e. it is not rooted in lobha/dosa/moha, but it IS a result of morally corrupt cittas. Let's not take the discussion as far as the javana cittas because I think we can agree that: 1. the sensation of pain arises prior to the javanas, and 2. pain frequently gives rise to dosa but it is not necessary for it to in all cases. Is it wrong to say "akusalavipaka cittas result from akusala cittas"? Does this differ from "the pain from the tree falling on your leg is a result of your bad kamma" in an essential way? [Certainly, kamma does not cause a tree to fall, but that is not a part of my sentence.] Slightly longer version: I see in your discussion that you identify the sensation of pain as a rupa. If true, then pain would belong to the nevavipaakanavipaakadhammadhammaa -- the dhammaa that are neither resultant nor cause resultants, viz. Nibbana and corporeality (sabbañca ruupaa.m) [vipaka triplet in Dhs. (Matika §3, Dhs §993 (in CSCD or the U Kyaw Khine translation, or §989 in the Rhys Davids translation)]. That would mean that kamma surely doesn't cause a tree to fall and that pain arising from a tree falling does not result from bad kamma. But is that what you are saying? I have always have thought of pain as vedana, a nama. "Pain" is the name we give to the sensation arising from certain anittha rupas. As such, it would not fall under the nevavipaakanavipaakadhammadhammaa, but, rather, the vipaka -- "Dhamma which are the results of wholesome or unwholesome dhamma... (Dhs §991 [cscd])." Here, the akusala dhamma does not cause the tree to fall, but it does serve as cause for the pain. Which particular akusala kamma(s)? Impossible to tell, but we can be sure that it was akusala kamma. For me, this is strictly theory because I have experienced a lot of pain for which I can see no connection to akusala kamma, and my understanding of the nature of pain is not so deep that I can say with conviction anything along the lines of "all pain is caused by ripening of akusala kamma." Easier to say would be the following: Kamma keeps this "being" going in this sphere of existence; beings that keep going in this sphere of existence may experience pain; pain is therefore a natural result (albeit apparently indirect) of kamma; beings in this realm all have bad past kamma; a life rife with good kamma may result in rebirth in a realm where there is no pain; therefore, pain is not only a result of kamma, it is a result of *bad* kamma in particular. However, this seems indirect, convoluted, speculative, contrived, etc. To say I'm not committed to this formulation is an understatement. Is there a good way to talk about pain as akusalavipaka without being so indirect, convoluted, speculative, contrived? I appreciate all your helpful comments. Metta, Dan 36572 From: Dan D. Date: Sat Sep 18, 2004 7:40am Subject: [dsg] Re: 21 questions...[Herman: "how you will see..."] Howdy, Mike. I usually think about it in much the same way you do. I don't get stressed about the unconjecturability of assigning a specific kamma (or set of kammas) to a specific vipaka (or set of vipakas) and just think about vipaka as vipaka. The texts, though, talk about vipaka as akusalavipaka and kusalavipaka. This sounds strange (even superstitious), and I wrestle with it sometimes just to try to understand what the texts are saying. For the time being, I will neither swallow nor turn up my nose in disgust. Metta, Dan 36573 From: Ken O Date: Sat Sep 18, 2004 7:41am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Citta as experiencing, to Dan. Hi Howard A blind person from birth will not know he is blind unless people tell him that they can see and describe it. Just like some animal that are naturally blind does not know they are blind. They have other senses for them to navigate around. Without eye sense, light etc, there will be no seeing. Darkness is not about without light. What is darkness - it is space to me :). Ken O > > ============================ > My apologies, Ken. Could you please restate these first two > sentences. > I cannot grasp them. > > With metta, > Howard > 36574 From: Ken O Date: Sat Sep 18, 2004 7:48am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: What is Meditation ? Hi (sorry dont notice who wrote this :)) > wrote: > > Hi Dhamma Friends, > > > > When most people sit for meditation, I think most people will > perform > > Anapana of some sort, or the various forms of Vipassana. > > Nikayas, but is, when explicated, different from the general > > agreement of what meditation actually is. > > His definition of meditation is partly this: > > A sustained and directed investigation into a chosen aspect of > our > > nature and reality. > > This, I believe, includes processes of directed thought and > > reflection (i.e. investigation and evaluation), in addition to > direct observation. > > Isn't this what we do in our everyday waking moments :) Ah so hard to notice, it just passes us moment by moment and yet we have many people keep telling us that we need to sit in one corner to "think" Sometimes I wonder, when we first awake, isn't thought already arise. Do we need to sit and think to think :). Thinking is only valid in the every moment of our life and not waiting in one corner to reinforce the believe that 'I' must do something. When there is an I, then thinking is already lost, panna is already lost bc we are still attached to the idea of I doing :) and believing that it takes an 'I' to eradicate an 'I'. Conditions arise without 'I' :). So lets be happy with thinking now and not later. Cheers Ken O > Hallo Nori and all > > This summer we had a retreat given by a Birmese Abhidhamma master > and > many times het used the term 'contemplation'. > Our (dutch Theravadin) understanding of it was that it is something > > else than vipassana (mindfullnes) or samatha (absorption, jhanas). > It > is thinking about a (Dhamma-)text, thinking so the text had not to > work like a 'mantra' in Tibetan meditations; it's not 'free > thinking', the thinking is 'confined' in the text and I had to do > it > without getting an opinion. > I think the 'method' you are talking about can best be described > with > the term CONTEMPLATION. > Other members of this DSG are better equipped to translate this > thinking-meditation-contemplation process in terms of the > Abhidhamma > psychology (as far as the Abhidhamma is a psychology). > > To give an example I think of the contemplations of Nyanaponika > about > the Four Brahmavihara's. > I quote the first one, about metta (he translates it with 'love', I > > prefer 'loving kindness') > > > "Love, without desire to possess, knowing well that in the ultimate > > sense there is no possession and no possessor: this is the highest > love. > Love, without speaking and thinking of "I," knowing well that this > so- > called "I" is a mere delusion. > Love, without selecting and excluding, knowing well that to do so > means to create love's own contrasts: dislike, aversion and hatred. > Love, embracing all beings: small and great, far and near, be it on > > earth, in the water or in the air. > Love, embracing impartially all sentient beings, and not only those > > who are useful, pleasing or amusing to us. > Love, embracing all beings, be they noble-minded or low-minded, > good > or evil. The noble and the good are embraced because Love is > flowing > to them spontaneously. The low-minded and evil-minded are included > because they are those who are most in need of Love. In many of > them > the seed of goodness may have died merely because warmth was > lacking > for its growth, because it perished from cold in a loveless world. > Love, embracing all beings, knowing well that we all are fellow > wayfarers through this round of existence -- that we all are > overcome > by the same law of suffering. > Love, but not the sensuous fire that burns, scorches and tortures, > that inflicts more wounds than it cures -- flaring up now, at the > next moment being extinguished, leaving behind more coldness and > loneliness than was felt before. > Rather, Love that lies like a soft but firm hand on the ailing > beings, ever unchanged in its sympathy, without wavering, > unconcerned > with any response it meets. Love that is comforting coolness to > those > who burn with the fire of suffering and passion; that is > life-giving > warmth to those abandoned in the cold desert of loneliness, to > those > who are shivering in the frost of a loveless world; to those whose > hearts have become as if empty and dry by the repeated calls for > help, by deepest despair. > Love, that is a sublime nobility of heart and intellect which > knows, > understands and is ready to help. > Love, that is strength and gives strength: this is the highest > Love. > Love, which by the Enlightened One was named the liberation of the > heart, the most sublime beauty: this is the highest Love. > And what is the highest manifestation of Love? To show to the > world > the path leading to the end of suffering, the path pointed out, > trodden, and realized to perfection by Him, the Exalted One, the > Buddha." > > > Metta > Joop > > > 36575 From: Ken O Date: Sat Sep 18, 2004 7:51am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: function, manifestation, etc. Hi Ken H Yes citta can be an object of another citta. Who says it only belongs to ordinary pple :) See you Ken O --- kenhowardau wrote: > Dear Nina, > > Thanks for your help, but I really need to start again from the > beginning: Does citta sometimes become the object of consciousness > of ordinary people (including those who have never heard the > Dhamma)? > > I won't ask my other questions now because they will be redundant > if > the answer is `no.' > :-) > > Kind regards, > Ken H 36576 From: Dan D. Date: Sat Sep 18, 2004 8:05am Subject: Re: Natural Decisive Support Condition (pakatupanissaya) Dear Rob M, Thinking about vipaka in terms of natural decisive support condition seems to be very helpful. My synopsis of what you wrote: It is natural decisive support condition that "pushes" the sensation of pain into the consciousness. When a tree falls on a leg, pain (akusalavipaka) only becomes a reality when the attention is adverted to the sensations. Without having first developed the habit of adverting the attention to pain, decisive support condition would not be there, consciousness would not be adverted to the unpleasant sensations, and pain would not arise. When natural decisive support for pain is present, attention is adverted, and pain is felt. "Natural decisive support for pain" is developed via akusala kamma (and concept and prior practice with experience of pain). Thanks. Metta, Dan --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" wrote: > Hi Herman / Dan, > > A fundamental principle of Buddhism is that everything arises > because of conditions; there is no God and no self to "decide" > things. The Patthana, the seventh book of the Abhidhamma, explains > conditional relations; ways in which one thing can be a condition > for another. One of these modes of conditioning is "natural decisive > support" (pakatupanissaya). Natural decisive support works as a > condition when one of the following factors is present: > - Strong past concepts > - Strong past citta / cetasika > - Strong past rupa > > "Past" not only includes experiences in the current lifetime, but > also experiences from previous lifetimes. A concept, citta / > cetasika or rupa can be "strong" when: > - It was encountered frequently in the past (a past habit) > - It was experienced very recently (bad news in one moment > influences your reaction to something else in the next moment) > - It was associated with very strong volition in the past (strong > past impression or a solemn vow) > > "Strong past concepts, citta / cetasikas or rupa" are the > conditioning factors, natural decisive support is the mode of > conditioning, but what is conditioned? The texts explain that all 89 > cittas and their associated cetasikas are conditioned. In other > words, natural decisive support plays a part in the arising of every > mental state. Though every single citta is influenced by natural > decisive support, we can see that there are certain cittas where > this conditioning by natural decisive support plays an important > role: > - Sense-door adverting: this citta controls the flow of the citta > process and "decides" that a certain rupa will become the object of > a citta process. Each of the senses is constantly bombarded with > information; it is natural decisive support condition that "decides" > which data will be processed. > - Determining / mind door adverting: this citta controls the flow of > the citta process and "decides" which type of javana (kamma > producing) cittas will follow. Natural decisive support > condition "decides" if our thoughts will be kusala or akusala. > - Javana: these cittas create kamma. The weightiness of the kamma > produced depends on the strength of the volition (cetana). It is > natural decisive support that "decides" how strong the cetana will > be and therefore the weightiness of the resulting kamma. > - Jhana: The arising of the jhana citta depend on natural decisive > support condition. It is this condition that "decides" when we > should enter jhana. > - Path: The arising of the supramundane cittas depend on natural > decisive support condition. It is this condition that "decides" when > we are ready to become a Sotapanna (or higher). > > The popular saying that "people are creatures of habit" is true. If > we do metta meditation each morning, our mind naturally reacts with > metta throughout the day. If we feel drawn to the Dhamma, it is > probably because we studied the Dhamma in a past life and have > accumulations to study the Dhamma in this life as well. If we are > attracted to a person, it is probably because we have been > associated with them in a past life (Yasodhara was the wife of the > Buddha in a previous existence). If we have a "talent" in music or > art, it is probably because of experience in past lives. > > There are hundreds of examples in the Suttas and commentaries where > the character or circumstances of a person is linked to > accumulations from a previous life. The ability to perceive a > person's accumulations is one of the unique abilities of a Buddha > (Arahants and others do not have this ability). > > At the time of the Dipankara Buddha, Sumedha the Hermit made a > solemn vow that he would become a future Buddha. This solemn vow > influenced the Bodhisatta for countless lifetimes. Sariputta and > Moggallana were chief disciples of the Buddha and Ananda was the > attendant of the Buddha because they had made solemn vows in > previous lives that this was the role that they wanted to play. > > An understanding of how this law of nature called natural decisive > support works can be a condition for the creation of kusala kamma: > - We should look for opportunities to perform wholesome deeds. This > searching for and planning a wholesome deed is, in itself, a > wholesome deed. We should ensure that all wholesome deeds are done > with strong volition, mindfulness and clear intention. We should > review and rejoice in wholesome deeds performed and share the merits > of our actions. Each of these activities creates good kamma and good > accumulations; a condition to support the performing of more good > deeds in the future. > - When there is an unwholesome state of mind, we should note it with > mindfulness. Seeing an unwholesome state of mind for what it is > constitutes a wholesome action. Mindfulness arrests the process of > mental proliferation (papanca); the multiplication of unwholesome > states of mind. Practicing mindfulness on an unwholesome state of > mind weakens the power of the accumulation that conditioned the > unwholesome state. > - We should understand the potential power of a solemn vow. To > increase the potency of the vow, it should be made when the mind is > clear and not troubled by restlessness. > > The creation of kusala kamma will bring pleasant results in the > future, but it does not help us to escape from samsara. To escape > from samsara, one must develop the accumulation of seeing things as > they truly are (nama and rupa) and recognize the three > characteristics of realities (anicca, dukkha and anatta). > > We are often deluded into believing in a "self that has control". > Reflecting upon natural decisive support condition supports an > understanding of anatta. To draw an analogy, gravity does > not "decide" to cause something to fall; gravity is a law of nature. > Natural decisive support is also a law of nature. > > Imagine a pile of rough gravel with a ball placed at the top. > Gravity will cause the ball to fall and the laws of physics will > determine the path that the ball takes as it rolls down. The path > that the ball takes will be determined by many factors including the > most recent bounce and any gullies that there may be in the gravel > (i.e. accumulations). From this analogy, we can see: > - It is almost impossible to predict, with accuracy how the mind > will react (i.e. don't know for sure the path the ball may take) > - There is no self in control (i.e. the natural laws of physics / > natural decisive support condition is "in control") > > Metta, > Rob M :-) 36577 From: m. nease Date: Sat Sep 18, 2004 8:55am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: 21 questions...[Herman: "how you will see..."] Hi Again Dan, ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dan D." To: Sent: Saturday, September 18, 2004 7:40 AM Subject: [dsg] Re: 21 questions...[Herman: "how you will see..."] > Howdy, Mike. > I usually think about it in much the same way you do. I don't get > stressed about the unconjecturability of assigning a specific kamma > (or set of kammas) to a specific vipaka (or set of vipakas) and just > think about vipaka as vipaka. The texts, though, talk about vipaka as > akusalavipaka and kusalavipaka. This sounds strange (even > superstitious), and I wrestle with it sometimes just to try to > understand what the texts are saying. I'm sure you already understand this, but of course kusala- and akusala-vipaakacitaani are so called only because of the kamma of which they are the result--they are neither in and of themselves (different jaati). Also good to remember, I think, that they really are only cittaani, arising for an instant and subsiding , not physical and not events. My apologies if I belabor these points... Cheers, mike 36578 From: Date: Sat Sep 18, 2004 7:27am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Citta as experiencing, to Dan. Hi, Ken - Thank you for the clarification. :-) With metta, Howard In a message dated 9/18/04 11:06:55 AM Eastern Daylight Time, ashkenn2k@y... writes: > Hi Howard > > A blind person from birth will not know he is blind unless people > tell him that they can see and describe it. Just like some animal > that are naturally blind does not know they are blind. They have > other senses for them to navigate around. Without eye sense, light > etc, there will be no seeing. Darkness is not about without light. > What is darkness - it is space to me :). > > > Ken O > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 36579 From: robmoult Date: Sat Sep 18, 2004 1:19pm Subject: Toll Booth Operators and the Brahmaviharas Hi All, Over the past few weeks, I have developed a habit of smiling at toll booth operators as I pass them. I find this to be a truly effective way of putting metta into my daily life. Often, the toll booth operators smile back at me. I strive not to be excited when they do smile back and I strive not to be let down when they do not smile back. Whether they smile back or not is a function of their own accumulations and their own kamma and should not impact my mental state. Using this technique, I foster equanimity. Sometimes, I imagine the daily work routine of a toll booth operator is not that pleasant. I have compassion and I hope that my smile will provide a few moments of pleasure in a generally monotonous day. When the toll booth operator smiles back at me, there is sympathetic joy in their minds which momentarily pushes aside any thoughts of judgment (of drivers) or boredom. May Dhamma practice be part of your daily life. Metta, karuna, mudita and upekkha, Rob M :-) 36580 From: robmoult Date: Sat Sep 18, 2004 1:23pm Subject: The Perfect Gift Hi All, Blood is an anonymous gift. There is no way that the recipient could know who the donor was. Donating blood is a pure act of giving, without any other possible motives. Blood is free from economics. When a gift is opened, the recipient cannot help but think of how much was paid. Unlike other types of gifts, neither the donor nor the recipient attaches an economic value to a gift of blood. Blood is a very personal gift. What could be more personal than blood? Blood cannot be manufactured, except by a human body. During the act of donating, blood is pumped into the sac by the heart of the donor. The recipient always appreciates a gift of blood. Other types of gifts are sometimes left unused or unappreciated. When a person receives blood it is because they really need it; perhaps it is even a case of life or death. You do not need to be wealthy to donate blood, just healthy. I think that we all agree that health is more important than wealth. Let us celebrate our good health and share it with others who are less fortunate (less healthy) than ourselves by donating blood. Metta, Rob M :-) 36581 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sat Sep 18, 2004 1:44pm Subject: Re: Toll Booth Operators and the Brahmaviharas Hello Rob, all, Thanks for this post. This is also a lesson my non-buddhist daughter reminded me of. Coming out of shopping centre carparks, or at highway toll booths, she always makes eye-contact, hands the money over with a smile at the operator as she asks 'How has your day been today?' Often the operator looks a little startled, but always has a reply (sometimes quite lengthy) and a smile. I commented on this once to her, and she said she'd learned it from her dear friend who is a Hotel manager that people may have to do jobs that are just one step up from an automated process, but we shouldn't treat them as machines - they still eat, sleep, excrete, bleed, have relationships, are happy or not, just like the rest of us. Now - I know that you know this Rob, that everyone on this list knows this ... but how often do we treat others as if they are things and not sentient beings? metta and peace, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" wrote: > Hi All, > > Over the past few weeks, I have developed a habit of smiling at toll > booth operators as I pass them. I find this to be a truly effective > way of putting metta into my daily life. > > Often, the toll booth operators smile back at me. I strive not to be > excited when they do smile back and I strive not to be let down when > they do not smile back. Whether they smile back or not is a function > of their own accumulations and their own kamma and should not impact > my mental state. Using this technique, I foster equanimity. > > Sometimes, I imagine the daily work routine of a toll booth operator > is not that pleasant. I have compassion and I hope that my smile > will provide a few moments of pleasure in a generally monotonous day. > > When the toll booth operator smiles back at me, there is sympathetic > joy in their minds which momentarily pushes aside any thoughts of > judgment (of drivers) or boredom. > > May Dhamma practice be part of your daily life. > > Metta, karuna, mudita and upekkha, > Rob M :-) 36582 From: Date: Sat Sep 18, 2004 10:53am Subject: Re: [dsg] Toll Booth Operators and the Brahmaviharas Hi, Rob - In a message dated 9/18/04 4:26:14 PM Eastern Daylight Time, rob.moult@j... writes: > > Hi All, > > Over the past few weeks, I have developed a habit of smiling at toll > booth operators as I pass them. I find this to be a truly effective > way of putting metta into my daily life. > > Often, the toll booth operators smile back at me. I strive not to be > excited when they do smile back and I strive not to be let down when > they do not smile back. Whether they smile back or not is a function > of their own accumulations and their own kamma and should not impact > my mental state. Using this technique, I foster equanimity. > > Sometimes, I imagine the daily work routine of a toll booth operator > is not that pleasant. I have compassion and I hope that my smile > will provide a few moments of pleasure in a generally monotonous day. > > When the toll booth operator smiles back at me, there is sympathetic > joy in their minds which momentarily pushes aside any thoughts of > judgment (of drivers) or boredom. > > May Dhamma practice be part of your daily life. > > Metta, karuna, mudita and upekkha, > Rob M :-) > ======================== Excellent, Rob! I completely empathize with your doing that, and I commend you on it, though it doesn't surprise me an iota that you in particular would do that - both as a wholesome, useful action and as a natural outflowing of goodness. A smile, a good word, some encouragement, a compliment when deserved, sympathy when called for, and kindness in general help the receiver and the bestower both, and sweeten all our lives. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 36583 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sat Sep 18, 2004 3:05pm Subject: Re: A Succinct Definition of 'Nibbana' Hello Howard, all, Have you read the fourteen sermons in the Nibbana series by Bhikkhu K. Nanaananda? They are in the Noble Quest section of BeyondtheNet. These were given to a community of meditative monks because, "Recently we have had an occasion to listen to a series of sermons on Nibbàna and there have been differences of opinion re garding the interpretation of some deep suttas on Nibbàna in those sermons. And so the venerable Great Preceptor suggested to me that it would be useful to this group if I would give a set of sermons on Nibbàna, touching on those controversial points." http://www.beyondthenet.net/calm/clm_main1.asp metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, all - > > In AN X.7, Sariputta is quoted as saying: "The cessation of becoming > -- nibbana -- the cessation of becoming -- nibbana': One perception arose in > me, friend Ananda, as another perception ceased. Just as in a blazing woodchip > fire, one flame arises as another flame ceases, even so, 'The cessation of > becoming -- Unbinding -- the cessation of becoming -- Unbinding': One perception > arose in me as another one ceased. I was percipient at that time of 'The > cessation of becoming -- Unbinding." > I have read elsewhere that somewhere in the Samyutta Nikaya the Buddha > says that the stopping of becoming is nibbana. Given this, a clear definition > 'becoming' yields a clear definition of 'nibbana'. As I understand it, > 'becoming' refers to kamma and kammic fruition; that is, to self- oriented volition > and its leading onward to consequent states. > > With metta, > Howard > > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble > in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a > phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 36584 From: Herman Hofman Date: Sat Sep 18, 2004 3:19pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Natural Decisive Support Condition (pakatupanissaya) Hi Rob and Dan, Thank you very much for this. I greatly appreciate it. What follows are just my ruminations, as I digest the material. More for my own clarification, but everyone is welcome to chip in. ==================== R > One of these modes of conditioning is "natural decisive support" (pakatupanissaya). Natural decisive support works as a condition when one of the following factors is present: - Strong past concepts - Strong past citta / cetasika - Strong past rupa "Past" not only includes experiences in the current lifetime, but also experiences from previous lifetimes. A concept, citta / cetasika or rupa can be "strong" when: - It was encountered frequently in the past (a past habit) - It was experienced very recently (bad news in one moment influences your reaction to something else in the next moment) - It was associated with very strong volition in the past (strong past impression or a solemn vow) ==================== H > The description of natural decisive support condition so far is reading much like one would find a description of learning. ==================== R > - Sense-door adverting: this citta controls the flow of the citta process and "decides" that a certain rupa will become the object of a citta process. Each of the senses is constantly bombarded with information; it is natural decisive support condition that "decides" which data will be processed. - Determining / mind door adverting: this citta controls the flow of the citta process and "decides" which type of javana (kamma producing) cittas will follow. Natural decisive support condition "decides" if our thoughts will be kusala or akusala. - Javana: these cittas create kamma. The weightiness of the kamma produced depends on the strength of the volition (cetana). It is natural decisive support that "decides" how strong the cetana will be and therefore the weightiness of the resulting kamma. - Jhana: The arising of the jhana citta depend on natural decisive support condition. It is this condition that "decides" when we should enter jhana. - Path: The arising of the supramundane cittas depend on natural decisive support condition. It is this condition that "decides" when we are ready to become a Sotapanna (or higher). =================== H > Merely as observation, natural decisive support condition cannot be used as an explanation for the first time a particular citta is conditioned. =================== R > The popular saying that "people are creatures of habit" is true. If we do metta meditation each morning, our mind naturally reacts with metta throughout the day. If we feel drawn to the Dhamma, it is probably because we studied the Dhamma in a past life and have accumulations to study the Dhamma in this life as well. If we are attracted to a person, it is probably because we have been associated with them in a past life (Yasodhara was the wife of the Buddha in a previous existence). If we have a "talent" in music or art, it is probably because of experience in past lives. =================== H > As above, there would still have to be some point at which the beginnings of an attraction or talent sprang into existence from a non-existence. Any accumulation requires a seed, a starting point. This is not to be taken as a deficiency of natural decisive support condition as explanation. But care should be taken when attributing a current reality to a past origin. If something cannot spring out of nothing now, no reason to think it could have happened in the past. So NDSC can explain why, say, there is seeing or not seeing in the context of seeing already being a possibility, but it cannot explain seeing becoming a possibility. As a point for more deliberation, is there then an implicit statement in Buddhist thought that mind, and all the possibilities of mind, have always been there, or in the words of another tradition, there is nothing new under the sun? Kind Regards Herman 36585 From: Date: Sat Sep 18, 2004 11:29am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: A Succinct Definition of 'Nibbana' Hi, Christine - In a message dated 9/18/04 6:05:49 PM Eastern Daylight Time, cforsyth1@b... writes: > > Hello Howard, all, > > Have you read the fourteen sermons in the Nibbana series by Bhikkhu > K. Nanaananda? They are in the Noble Quest section of > BeyondtheNet. These were given to a community of meditative monks > because, "Recently we have had an occasion to listen to a series of > ser­mons on Nibbàna and there have been differences of opinion re­ > garding the interpretation of some deep suttas on Nibbàna in those > ser­mons. And so the venerable Great Preceptor suggested to me that > it would be useful to this group if I would give a set of sermons on > Nibbàna, touching on those controversial points." > http://www.beyondthenet.net/calm/clm_main1.asp > > metta and peace, > Christine ========================= THANK you! I may have read them, but I don't recall. I certainly WILL read them, because I think very highly of Bhikkhu ~Nanananda. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 36586 From: Herman Hofman Date: Sat Sep 18, 2004 3:38pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: A Succinct Definition of 'Nibbana' Hi Christine, http://www.beyondthenet.net/calm/clm_main1.asp I guess that takes care of what I'll be doing next :-) Thanks and Kind Regards Herman 36587 From: Andrew Levin Date: Sat Sep 18, 2004 4:19pm Subject: Re: [dsg] OK, Abhidharma --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "plnao" wrote: > Hi Andrew > > Ph: So I guess you show good understanding by focussing on > the idea of straightening wrong views as you do below. > > Please note what follows on p.52. The once-returner and > never-returner eradicate different aspects of lobha, > but "only the arahat has eradicated lobha completely." There > is a long, long joureny ahead of us. Countless lifetimes. > Patience is central. That's how I take it. Patience about > the idea of "no craving present" because that won't happen > for a long, long time, but certainly pressing ahead with diligence > as you are with respect to straightening wrong views. Phil, I disagree. Look at the very instructions on how to practise from the Maha-satipatthana Sutta: >Being detached from craving and wrong views note30 he dwells without clinging to anything in the world. Thus, bhikkhus, this is a way in which a bhikkhu dwells perceiving again and again the body as just the body.< This is the instructions on how to practise (from the get-go), not how we are once we reach a certain level of attainment (sotapanna). Seeing two of the three dharma seals in existence is possible, I have done it, I looked at my garbage can and I saw it was changing and not-self, just after two 20-30 minute meditation sessions. And I'm one who goes with the Buddha's assurance of attainment that anyone who practises the four foundations of mindfulness in the manner prescribed for anywhere from seven years down to seven days can reach enlightenment. Why countless lifetimes? Who's to say you will get a human rebirth again? So I do agree with you that we don't eradicate lobha till the later stages of enlightenment as it being one of the three root defilements along with dosa and moha (sp) but I don't think that prevents us from being free of craving beforehand. As Venerable U. Silananda said, "Seeing the true nature of things, practitioners of vipassana will not having craving, let along clinging, to anything in the world." If there is nothing permanent maybe we won't see any reason to crave for it? I don't know exactly, but I certainly think this can all be accomplished at a much quicker rate than you take. If we want to go the route of developing the perfections, then, yes, we have a long journey ahead of us. But there are different paths to take and some of them have shorter roads than others. Even dhammapada has instructions for the seeker to only 'meditate constantly' and lists the different fetters he will leave behind as he breaks through to the state of peace. > > I don't know if you saw it - you probably did because anyone > sensible would would read each and every one > of Nina's posts with keen attention, but yesterday she was > talking about sammalobha, the subtle form of lobha which > is inevitable and doesn't harm others. Let's see if I can find it. > Here it is: > > >>>>N: Fear is no good, it adds more dosa to the latent tendencies of dosa. > Rob > K also wrote about the three cycles of kamma, vipaka and kilesa > (defilements). This is in the Commentaries. I have to check Visuddhimagga > (Ch XVII). Kamma produces a result in the form of vipaaka. We like or > dislike vipaaka and this is defilement. Defilement motivates kamma and this > produces vipaka and so on. We also can look in the Dispeller of Delusion, > Sammohavinodani. > But I also remember A. Sujin: sammalobha and visammalobha. Rob K wrote about > it. Sammalobha: slight lobha, liking food, looking at trees. The countless, > countless unnoticed moments of lobha after a moment of seeing right now, > hearing right now. Think of all the javana cittas in the processes! Or > thinking with neutral feeling: just thinking about a cup. This is usually > with lobha, unless there is dana, sila or bhavana. It is sammalobha, you do > not harm others. This is not the same as evil kamma. > When reading about Kamma patha in the Expositor I see the specific > conditions mentioned to make it a completed action. There are many degrees > of kamma. (end quote) > > Ph: I take this in an encouraging way. Your "no craving present" is not > something > that we should expect any day soon. Aiming for it in this lifetime might > suggest wrong view of self that can do things that the Buddha teaches > are impossible. (What is a javana citta?) He said in the very instructions on how to practise for arahantship in this lifetime, in the here and now, that one dwells detached from craving, detached from wrong views. I have been detached from wrong views of the nature of things and probably can be again in that sense but I'm still not /sure/ about the craving/clinging deal. But the Pali Canon does have a note in MN 130 saying those who practise the noble dhamma look upon clinging with fear, for it produces birth and death. So maybe it is possible. Would be great if Nina or someone of similar intelligence could give me insight as to my questions on wrong views, otherwise I'll continue onto the next chapter, degrees of lobha. Still thinking about how just noticing lobha at different moments will decrease it and hoping that I can do it. peace, AL 36588 From: Andrew Levin Date: Sat Sep 18, 2004 4:24pm Subject: Re: [dsg] OK, Abhidharma Phil, Just checking, Don't you also owe me a reply from a thread a week or two back? I was really looking forward to reading through it. Compose it if you get a chance, Id appreciate it. Thanks, AL 36589 From: rjkjp1 Date: Sat Sep 18, 2004 5:14pm Subject: Re: [dsg] OK, Abhidharma --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Andrew Levin" wrote: > ---> And I'm one who goes with the Buddha's assurance of attainment that > anyone who practises the four foundations of mindfulness in the manner > prescribed for anywhere from seven years down to seven days can reach > enlightenment. Why countless lifetimes? Who's to say you will get a > human rebirth again? > ++++++++++++ Dear Andrew, The Buddha said for one who practices the satipatthana constantly will surely attain. But this is only for the extremely wise at the time of the Buddha who had the accumulations to understand what satipatthana really is - and then for it to arise in succession. Nowadays just for most of us to understand that every moment is anatta and uncontrollable - only namas and rupas -takes time. In the Chullavagga atthakatha it says that 2000 years after the Buddhas parinibbana there can be no more arahants but only anagami at most. What we should be aspiring to is to understand this moment appearing now now:I think if we can do that we will not have wasted this human life and will feel confident in the way. Robert 36590 From: Herman Hofman Date: Sat Sep 18, 2004 5:51pm Subject: RE: [dsg] OK, Abhidharma Hi Robert, ============== In the Chullavagga atthakatha it says that 2000 years after the Buddhas parinibbana there can be no more arahants but only anagami at most. ============== What is the relevance of the Chullavagga atthakatha to nibbana here and now? Kind Regards Herman 36591 From: Herman Hofman Date: Sat Sep 18, 2004 6:06pm Subject: RE: [dsg] OK, Abhidharma Hi Robert, The following is not / was not intended with any harshness. Please read it as a question about how the Chullavagga atthakatha relates to what the Buddha taught. Kind Regards Herman Hi Robert, ============== In the Chullavagga atthakatha it says that 2000 years after the Buddhas parinibbana there can be no more arahants but only anagami at most. ============== What is the relevance of the Chullavagga atthakatha to nibbana here and now? Kind Regards Herman 36592 From: rjkjp1 Date: Sat Sep 18, 2004 8:14pm Subject: Re: [dsg] OK, Abhidharma Dear Herman, Thanks for the great question. There are several ways that it relates: 1. This commentary was explaining the Buddha's statement where he said that the Sasana (teaching) would only last 500 years. Someone might have read that statement in the VinayaChullavagga and Anguttara Nikaya and believed that now (2600 years later) the sasana must be extinct. Now they can be assured that according to Theravada it will last much longer. 2. It also helps us understand the appropriate way of practice. According to the texts there are 3 ways by which nibbana is attained: that is by samathayanika (the one who has mastery of jhana); By samatha and vipassana combined ; and by vipassana alone. The Netti-pakarana (587) "Tattha Bhagava tikkhindriyassa samatham upadassati, majjhindriyassa Bhagava samathavipassanam upadissati, mudindriyassa Bhagava vipassanam upadassati. Herein the Blessed one teaches samatha to one of keen faculties; The blessed one teaches samatha and insight to one of medium faculties and the blessed one teaches insight [alone] to one of blunt faculties. Again in the Netti (746)it says that the Buddha teaches insight [alone] to one who is guidable (neyya) and teaches in detail to neyya. At this time (acording to the texts) there are only padaparama and neyya. The extremely wise types with high accumulations of parami are called Ugghatitannu and Vipancitannu are now extinct (this is tangentially explained in the commentary I quoted earlier). Padaparama cannot attain in this life, although they can in future lives.. We, at this time, - so the Theravada commentaries say- are either padaparama or neyya and we need many details so we have to study and consider a great deal as a condition for understanding. From Ledi sayadaw http://web.ukonline.co.uk/buddhism/individu.htm ""(1) A Ugghatitannu : an individual who· encounters a Buddha in person, and who is capable of attaining the Holy Paths and the Holy Fruits through the mere hearing of a short concise discourse. (2) A Vipancitannu: an individual who · encounters a Buddha in person, but · who is capable of attaining the Paths and the Fruits only when the short discourse is expounded to him at some length. At the present day, only the following Neyya and Padaparama classes of individuals remain. (3) A Neyya : an individual who needs · to study the sermon and the exposition, and then · to practise the provisions contained therein for 7 days to 60 years, to attain the Paths and the Fruits during this lifetime if he tries hard with guidance from the right teacher. (4) A Padaparama : is an individual who cannot attain the Paths and the Fruits within this lifetime can attain release from worldly ills in his next existence if he dies while practising samatha or vipassana and attains rebirth either as a human being or a deva within the present Buddha Sasana. ""endquote Ledi sayadaw. RobertK In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Herman Hofman" wrote: > Hi Robert, > > The following is not / was not intended with any harshness. Please read > it as a question about how the Chullavagga atthakatha relates to what > the Buddha taught. > > Kind Regards > > > Herman > > > Hi Robert, > > > ============== > In the Chullavagga atthakatha it says that 2000 years after the > Buddhas parinibbana there can be no more arahants but only anagami at > most. > > ============== > > What is the relevance of the Chullavagga atthakatha to nibbana here and > now? > > > Kind Regards > > Herman 36593 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sat Sep 18, 2004 9:32pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: ŒCetasikas' study corner13-Introduction(j) Hi Howard, That is well formulated. I could add something. op 17-09-2004 14:17 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: > The statement was not that recognizing that > defilements are not-self is sufficient for their removal, but rather is > *necessary* for that. It is one requisite condition, because "so long as we > take > defilements for self or 'mine' they cannot be eradicated" - that is, so long > as > they are taken as personal and intrinsic, removal is blocked. N: One also takes them for lasting, does not see them as impermanent. A clear understanding is blocked, preventing us to see them as just dhamma, an impersonal element. So long as there is wrong view pañña cannot progress, and it is pañña that can eradicate all defilements. Nina. 36594 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sat Sep 18, 2004 9:32pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: function, manifestation, etc. Dear Ken, op 18-09-2004 09:43 schreef kenhowardau op kenhowardau@y...: > Thanks for your help, but I really need to start again from the > beginning: N: Good!! We all should start from the beginning, I like that. K: Does citta sometimes become the object of consciousness > of ordinary people (including those who have never heard the > Dhamma)? N: Yes, I think it does. When there is no understanding of the Dhamma people can still realize their anger, their unpleasant feeling, their thinking, as Howard also said in his post to you. (I go into that separately). And see Ken O's post, it is not a previlege of certain people. However, they do not know that these are dhammas, impersonal elements. They take them for mine. Actually, we can change the Q. a little: does citta become the object of consciousness for us, also when we are forgetful, not mindful? Yes. Same for feeling, anger, etc. At such moments we notice them, thus, they are objects of citta, but we do not realize that these are dhammas. We learn the Dhamma, we gain more intellectual understanding, and there is a degree of straightening our wrong views. K: I won't ask my other questions now because they will be redundant if > the answer is `no.' N: Do ask them, since my answer is yes!! It is very useful to talk about basic things like this. Nina. 36595 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sat Sep 18, 2004 9:32pm Subject: Re: [dsg] age of wisdom Dear Connie, lucky you. I read it somewhere in the Vis itself but would need time to search. Each decad is characterized, like the reclining age, but my father is not yet reclining. Decad of beauty, of strength. Do not take it too literally, it is never too late to develop understanding. I was in Bgk between forty and fifty. Nina. op 18-09-2004 01:29 schreef connieparker op connieparker@i...: > > Hi, Vis fans, > Just curious. In 'Intro Vis. 83' Nina wrote that "The age from forty to > fifty is the most favorable age to develop wisdom according to the > Visuddhimagga". Does anyone happen to know where? > peace, > connie (at 47) > > 36596 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sat Sep 18, 2004 9:32pm Subject: Re: [dsg] kusala vipaaka and akusala vipaaka. Hi Dan, interesting point. Is it the name kusala.v. and akusala v. you find confusing? Now is the time for me to discuss vipaaka. Right now I am assembling my intro to the akusala vipaka, Visuddhimagga XIV, 101 Larry just posted. I shall try to keep this in mind. The Tiika says something about this. As to kusala vipaaka I have already: The Tiika states that also because kusala cittas are powerful while they occur, they have the meaning of being active.> The fact that they are called kusala vipaaka and akusala vipaaka merely denotes that they are produced by kusala kamma and akusala kamma. They are just one jaati: the jaati of vipaaka. Nina. op 18-09-2004 16:40 schreef Dan D. op onco111@y...: > The texts, though, talk about vipaka as > akusalavipaka and kusalavipaka. This sounds strange (even > superstitious) 36597 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sat Sep 18, 2004 9:32pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Flip-flopping Dear Matt, op 17-09-2004 15:25 schreef matt roke op mattroke@h... > I hope you don't mind me contributing a thought or two. N: I appreciate all your posts. You explained the matter very well. It is just as if you have been listening to A. Sujin all your life. Have you?? M: We can interlectually appreciate that there are numerous *dark* cittas in > between *light* > cittas but are we experiencing them? I sit here with visible object, sound, > touch and > thinking etc., arising and falling away. So many *dark* cittas and so few > *light* cittas and > yet I only experience the latter. N: Excellent. > M: If *the experience of being without eye-consciousness is very common* then > we > would not need to be reminded of them. N: Yes, we are forgetful of the most common realities of daily life. With appreciation, Nina. 36598 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sat Sep 18, 2004 9:32pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Japanese temples. Hi Phil, Lodewijk says Nara is no 1. Also Kyoto all around, and Kamakura. We stayed for a night in a temple in Koyasan. We liked the simple life there. I talked to some monks. But it was not easy to talk on Dhamma to monks. They were always very kind. Nina. op 18-09-2004 01:31 schreef plnao op plnao@j...: > But I was moved to tears by the golden Kannon at Hase temple > in Kamakura. I wonder if you have visited it? Or if you could > tell me about any other temples you were deeply impressed by > during your time in Japan. Perhaps it would inspire me to make > some pilgrimages of my own while you are all in India. 36599 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sat Sep 18, 2004 9:32pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Citta. Hi Phil: K I: (I, 7, §2, The Devas, no 7, Over under Suttas, The heart (mind, citta): Nor what is that whereby the world is led? And what is that whereby it plaques itself (is drawn along)? And what is that above all other things That brings everything beneath its sway? N: The answer of the Sutta is: is thoughts, cittas. Friend James could give you B.B.'s translation. I wish he would again take up the Kindred Sayings thread. You can think of kusala citta and akusala citta that are so powerful. Moreover, citta is the chief in cognizing an object but it is assisted by the cetasikas. Citta is never without cetasikas. Nina. op 18-09-2004 14:17 schreef plnao op plnao@j...: > > As a final question in the introduction - I guess it will be the final > one - I think I'll ask something > I've been wondering. How do cittas and cetasikas relate to Dhammapada 1:1? "mind precedes > all mental states. Mind > is their chief; they are all mind wrought. If with an impure mind a person > speaks or acts suffering > follows him like the wheel that follows the foot of the ox."