36600 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sat Sep 18, 2004 9:32pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Recognizing Wholesome Mental States Hi Rob M, my PED has both: ujju and uju, and as you say in the compound ujukata. I liked your characterizations of the sobhana cetasikas. Nina. op 18-09-2004 01:53 schreef robmoult op rob.moult@j...: > I wavered on this point as well. Now I think that I will use > ujukata, since technically ujjukata only arises as part of a > compound. > 36601 From: nori Date: Sat Sep 18, 2004 11:13pm Subject: To support or abandon your parents (child, relatives)? - Sutta-Nipâta Hi Dhamma Friends, I am trying to make sense of conflicting statements found in the Sutta-Nipâta. In section one of the Sutta-Nipâta - I. URAGAVAGGA - subsection 3. KHAGGA VISÂNASUTTA It urges one to live and wander alone by stating many reasons in support of it. For example: 6. 'There is (a constant) calling in the midst of company, both when sitting, standing, walking, and going away; (but) let one, looking (only) for freedom from desire and for following his own will, wander alone like a rhinoceros. (39)' --- 7. 'There is sport and amusement in the midst of [1. Comp Dhp. v. 142. 2. Comp. Dhp. v. 345.] p. 7 company, and for children there is great affection; (although) disliking separation from his dear friends, let one wander alone like a rhinoceros. (40)' --- ... And then comes this bold statement: --- 26. 'Having left son and wife, father and mother, wealth, and corn, and relatives, the different objects of desire, let one wander alone like a rhinoceros. (59)' --- ... but then it is written in section 6. PARÂBHAVASUTTA, also in I. URAGAVAGGA: 7. Deity: 'We know this to be so, this is the third loser; tell us the fourth, O Bhagavat, what is the cause (of loss) to the losing (man).' (96) 8. Bhagavat: 'He who being rich does not support mother or father who are old or past their youth,--that is the cause (of loss) to the losing (man).' (97) --- Everyones parents or relatives will one day grow old or sick and will possibly need (or will benefit from) the help of their children; whether for emotional support, monetary support, medical support, or physical support. I imagine that most people (and it is the case for me) would be hesitant to consider the life of a contemplative (that is, wandering recluse in seclusion) for concern for either 'son and wife, father and mother, ...relatives'. I have considered it, and still consider it. However my parents are old, I care about them and would like to be around in case they need me. --- Of course it is well known that Gotama left his father and son to seek realization and emancipation from suffering, despite the pleading from his father not to. However his father was a wealthy king, and could take care of himself as well as his grand son. --- Anyway, I am wondering what others make of these contradictory statements? One in support of supporting your parents, One in support of abandoning them (as well as children and relatives) to benefit oneself. metta, nori 36602 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sun Sep 19, 2004 0:48am Subject: Eight attainments (attha samaapattiyo) Hello all, I was reading a sutta called "The Counterfeit of the Dhamma" SN 16.13 This sutta lists the five detrimental things that lead to the decay and disappearance of the true Dhamma. The fifth detrimental thing is that the bhikkhus, the bhikkhunis, the male lay followers, and the female lay followers dwell without reverence and deference towards concentration. Bhikkhu Bodhi explains: "Spk: One dwells without reverence for concentration when one does not attain the eight attainments (attha samaapattiyo) or make any effort to attain them". What are the attha samaapattiyo? metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- 36603 From: matt roke Date: Sun Sep 19, 2004 1:00am Subject: [dsg] "... as parasites a tree." ??? Hi All, ================= ================= Robert> "Ananda, if women did not obtain the going forth from the household as homeless, in the dispensation of the Thus Gone One, the dispensation would have lasted longer a thousand years Ananda, as women have obtined the going forth from the household to become homeless, it will not last long, the good Teaching will last only five hundred years Howard> Yes. Harder to set aside, and most disheartening. I read the sutta material and the attempts on poster's parts to "explain," and the matter remains most unsettling. And yet I believe there *must* be an explanation other than the Buddha actually holding sexist views, very disparaging and upsetting views. ================= Whether women corrupted the sasana or not does not change what reality is arising and inpinging on the sense door right now. Whether the Buddha held those views or not, whether the Jataka Tales are true or fiction, whether the Teaching will last 500 or 5,000 years does not change what reality is arising and impinging on the sense door right now. In the citta moment that arises right now there is no Jataka Tales, no women, no men, no Bhikhunis, no sexist views and no self; male or female. Understanding the Dhamma negates the stories and that is what makes it so beautiful and its followers so unique. On a worldly note: women have been men before and will be them again and men have been women before and will come back as them again. So we have all probably lived through this debate countless times before. MattR 36604 From: matt roke Date: Sun Sep 19, 2004 1:02am Subject: [dsg] Flip-flopping Hi Howard and all, Let me clarify in more detail what I inadequately said earlier. ====================== ====================== Matt> Whether we are in a place where things are clearly discernible, only slightly discernible or not discernible at all, the only realities are seeing and visible object. *Light*, *void of light* and *darkness*, along with black and colours, are concepts experienced in the mind door. Howard> the concept of (relative) darkness or (degees of) dimness appears to be well based in directly observed phenomena. So I find that I remain less than fully convinced on the matter. It may well be the case, and probably *is* the case, that absences in general are known only through the mind door, but that in itself does not make them concept only. ======================= For citta to arise at the eye door there must be an object to experience. That object has characteristics, which the citta then experiences. This is followed by thinking, which gives rise to concepts about the characteristics and names for them. The conceptional name in English is *colour* and *light*. However, the characteristics of the visible object experienced by a citta is not the same as the concept of *colour* and *light* that is experienced by the many cittas of thinking. Therefore I made mention of seeing visible object and thinking (concepts experienced in the mind door) of *colour* and *light*. I don't advocate that we should always avoid using these words when talking about visible object, however I think it helps to do so when discussing the subject you have brought up because we need to understand the realties that are there. The characteristics of visible object vary. And whether they are clearly or slightly discernable, the citta arises at the eye door and experiences them as visible object. It experiences them for the reality that they are, not as being dim or darker or in darkness. That happens in thinking where there is comparison with visible objects that have different characteristics. Shaded, dark or black areas are characteristics of visible objects. A visible object may have no such characteristic (a brightly lit white room) or it may be comprised entirely of that characteristic (a pitch black room). A citta can only arise at the eye door if there is an object to experience. In a place where there is absolutely no light the object it experiences is what we conceptionally refer to as dark, darkness or void of light etc. For there to be hearing there must also be an object for the citta to experience, so if there is no audible object (which we call sound) then the citta will not arise at the ear door. When there is an absence of sound it is because there is no audible object for the citta to experience. When there is an absence of light there is still an object for the citta to experience but it only experiences it for the object reality that it is, not as an absence of light, that happens in the mind door. This is how I understand it to be. Much appreciate your question, I found it most valuable. MattR 36605 From: matt roke Date: Sun Sep 19, 2004 1:24am Subject: [dsg] Picking up thread with Ken and Robert (was The Buddha as physician) Hi Ken and Robert, Thank you for your reply Ken. My apologies for taking so long to answer you, I have limited time. ============================== ============================== Robert> Yet don't we reveal our lack of confidence in the Dhamma by trying to change conditions rather than understanding them. ============================== I think I may have misunderstood what Robert was saying here. I think there was some mention of "cleansing" and that led me to take his point the wrong way. ========================= ========================= KenH> The learned trainee does not think, "It is not good enough to know lobha as lobha, I must set up the conditions for alobha." That would, as Robert has said, indicate a lack of faith in the Dhamma - a lack of faith in the efficacy of knowing dhammas as they are. =============================== I am fine with this. =============================== =============================== Ken> That learned trainee might entertain the thought, "I do not like lobha, therefore I will have alobha instead." If so, he will have the opportunity for knowing lobha as lobha. =============================== Would a learned trainee have such thoughts; Aversion (dosa) towards lobha and desire (lobha) for alobha? I would have thought it is wisdom that conditions alobha not dosa and lobha. MattR 36606 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Sep 19, 2004 2:06am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: 'Cetasikas' study corner2-Preface(a) Hi, Matt Thanks for coming in and sharing your thoughts on this thread, and my apologies for the delay in responding. I always enjoy reading your contributions. What you say here is a useful reminder. It helps to keep in mind that we all share a common objective. Concepts are what we have to start with and will always be working with. Jon --- matt roke wrote: > Hi Jon and Herman, ... > Excuse me for butting in. > > I think we all have the same objective, to try and glean the truth out > of what we have available to us. > > For me I listen to different view points until I find something that I > can experience and know or believe to be real. > > I try to learn, so that there will be wisdom that knows the true nature > of the reality that arises and falls away right now to create this > concept of a Buddha, the Tripitika and the teaching. > > We seek knowledge from concepts so that > there can be the understanding that it is this way. > > MattR 36607 From: Herman Hofman Date: Sun Sep 19, 2004 2:11am Subject: Predicting the future Hi all, There have been a few mentions in recent posts of predictions of the future allegedly from the mouth of the Buddha. My reading of the suttas suggests that prediction of the future is an activity spurned by the Buddha (even weather forecasting is abstained from), and my understanding of Buddhist thinking generally is that predicting the future, given the nature of reality, is just not possible (there are undetermined moments, therefore all futures are undetermined). I have acquired the habit of assuming that all canonical predictions of the future originate from sources that haven't quite understood the teachings of the Buddha. I would be happy to receive any feedback on this, no matter how wrong I turn out to be :-) Kind Regards Herman 36608 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Sep 19, 2004 2:27am Subject: Re: [dsg] Thinking and thoughts -- status of Hi, Howard --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Jon - ... > -------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Terminology is not consistenly used throughout the suttas, the > word > 'sankhara' itself being a case in point, but I agree that the nature of > dhammas, > most specifically the tilakkhana, is knowable by pa~n~na. > ------------------------------------------------- I think any apparent inconsistency is deliberate. You will recall Nina's series on the word 'dhamma', which has a number of different usages depending on context. But within that range of usage there is consistency, and there is consistency as regards doctrinal aspects of the teachings. ... > ------------------------------------------------ > Howard: > I didn't deny that experiential content (what you call object) > and its presence (vi~n~nana) are distinguishable. As you know, "object" is a translation of the Pali term (arammana) used in the texts. I believe your use of "experiential content" to be idiosyncratic ;-)). Is there some advantage in using this term/concept? > All that I maintained is that > 'vi~n~nana' in the scheme of paticcasamupada is more than mere > experiencing - it is > defiled experiencing, defiled by the sense of subject, by I-making. > ------------------------------------------------- I'm not sure I understand. Are you saying that the moment of actual seeing and other 5-sense door consciousness are (or can be) either kusala or akusala in nature? What exactly do you mean by 'defiled experiencing'? (The generally understood (orthodox) position is of course that seeing and other 5-sense door consciousness are vipaka and accordingly are neither kusala or akusala in nature.) > > There is no reference in the suttas to any 'merging' of the two into a > > single 'event'. ... > ------------------------------------------------ > Howard: > Actually, I think there is. I think that is what "vi~n~nanam > anidassanam" pertains to, and I think that the absence of that, the > "normal" experience > of sentient beings, is what the Sheaves of Reeds Sutta points to. That's > the way I see it. Interesting. I'd be grateful if you could post a reference to "vi~n~nanam anidassanam" and the Sheaves of Reeds Sutta so I can see what you are referring to (couldn't find either on a quick look). > --------------------------------------------- > Howard: ... > But the meaning of 'vi~n~nana' in the context of > dependent origination I definitely believe is that of > ignorance-conditioned experiencing. Perhaps you could clarify what exactly what you mean by 'ignorance-conditioned experiencing', since there are a number of ways that expression could be interpreted. > --------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Vi~n~nana and namarupa are mutually dependent. The Sheaves of > Reeds > Sutta says that. So called visible-object is an instance of namarupa. > --------------------------------------------- As I said, I'd like to have a look at the sutta, but don’t have a reference. > -------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Perhaps so, Jon. The thought occurs to me that a worldling is > without > wisdom, or at least without much, at all times. At the time a Buddha is > seeing, is he also without wisdom? But perhaps it is true that there is > no wisdom in > either case at the time of merely seeing. I agree that wisdom or its > lack is > a matter of mind, not form. > -------------------------------------------------- As I understand it, the seeing consciousness of the Buddha is vipaka, as for anyone else, and as such is not accompanied by wisdom. Jon 36609 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Sep 19, 2004 2:31am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: flippin off the moon Hi, Joop --- jwromeijn wrote: ... > > There is no lack of writings by erudite scholars. But by what > > standard do you measure the views expressed by these other > > writers? Do you trust your own judgment in the matter? > Joop: Yes, and sometime with the help of scolars I trust, for example > David Kalupahana and Stephen Batchelor Yes but my question is, how can one be sure that one's preference for a particular writer (and I'd like to keep this non-personal, it applies to whoever) is not just a reflection of a shared wrong view of the teachings? ... > Joop: (1) To nothing clinging is good, also not to realities I agree with this. > (2) The (paramattha) dhammas are realities, that is: they are > not trancendental (perhaps 'Nibbana' is: we don't know) And because > the dhammas are realities in the Abhidhamma we have to be critical on > comments who make things sibtle and complex. Sorry Joop, but I haven't managed to catch your point here. Would you mind explaining further? Thanks. Jon 36610 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Sep 19, 2004 2:38am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Anapanasati Sutta Hi, Herman --- Herman Hofman wrote: > Hi Jon, ... > I agree with you, with a few proviso's. Different people will have a > different understanding of what is comfortable. And for some definitions > of comfort, having a comfortable life entails a great deal of effort to > maintain that. And effort expended in maintaining a comfortable > lifestyle precludes the expending of more profitable effort. But the two efforts you speak of here (effort to maintain a comfortable lifestyle, effort to develop kusala) are efforts of an entirely different kind. They are not mutually exclusive, surely. Of course, a generally hedonistic approach to life would make it difficult to see the value in developing kusala, but not so ordinary 'family' concerns -- never disparaged by the Buddha. > I refer to > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/khuddaka/suttanipata/snp1-12. > html > > and especially > > It is not without reason that it is said that > As the crested, > blue-necked peacock, > when flying, > never matches > the wild goose > in speed: > Even so the householder > never keeps up with the monk, > the sage secluded, > doing jhana > in the forest. Note that it is a *sage* that is referred to here, not just any ascetic doing jhana (understanding is the key, as always), so the comparison is clear. Now take a different situation. As between the householder with developed/developing understanding of satipatthana and the ascetic with jhana but no interest in satipatthana, who do you think would be praised the more by the Buddha? > H > I don't disagree with you; but the following rephrasings could also > apply. The homeless life is advantageous for those *ready* for living > it. It could well be disadvantageous for a person not *ready* for it. Sounds fair enough ;-)) > I do not advocate a wholesale leaving of the householders life. But I am > in no doubt as to which lifestyle was advocated by the Buddha for those > truly aware of the nature of reality and truly seeking an end to dukkha. There are plenty of references in the suttas to followers who are truly aware of the nature of reality but yet who are householders. Reality is whatever is in whatever circumstances, and asceticism is not a necessary prerequisite for the development of the knowledge that dispels ignorance of what is. The Buddha never disparaged the household life lived properly. He encouraged the pursuit of understanding in whatever circumstances one finds oneself (lay life, anapanasati devotee, etc) Jon 36611 From: gazita2002 Date: Sun Sep 19, 2004 3:43am Subject: [dsg] Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner13-Introduction(j) Dear Howard, -- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Azita (and Sarah) - > > > > > > How does this direct understanding become a condition for 'us' > > to do no evil, etc? > > It sort of makes sense to me, but as there are still defilements > > _surely there are still the conditions for them to arise, and do > > evil? no? > > Maybe the evil performed is a lesser degree than if no > > understanding. Maybe I've answered my own question!!! > ------------------------------------------------ > Howard: > If I may hazard a guess: The statement was not that recognizing that > defilements are not-self is sufficient for their removal, but rather is > *necessary* for that. It is one requisite condition, because "so long as we take > defilements for self or 'mine' they cannot be eradicated" - that is, so long as > they are taken as personal and intrinsic, removal is blocked. And I think that > is so for clear psychological reasons - whatever is viewed as "self" is viewed > as undivorcible (if that is a word ;-). Thanks for this. I'm still wondering tho, even after the first vipassana-nana, when one knows the difference bet. nama and rupa, if its possible for one to still do evil, even tho it may be a 'small' evil - eg tell a lie. Patience, courage and good cheer. Azita. 36612 From: gazita2002 Date: Sun Sep 19, 2004 4:02am Subject: Re: [dsg] "... as parasites a tree." ??? Dear Matt and others on this thread, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "matt roke" wrote: > Hi All, ......snip.... And yet I believe there *must* be an explanation other than > the > Buddha actually holding sexist views, very disparaging and upsetting views. > > ================= > > Whether women corrupted the sasana or not does not change what reality is > arising > and inpinging on the sense door right now. Whether the Buddha held those > views or > not, whether the Jataka Tales are true or fiction, whether the Teaching will > last 500 > or 5,000 years does not change what reality is arising and impinging on the > sense > door right now. > > In the citta moment that arises right now there is no Jataka Tales, no > women, no > men, no Bhikhunis, no sexist views and no self; male or female. > > Understanding the Dhamma negates the stories and that is what makes it so > beautiful > and its followers so unique. > > On a worldly note: women have been men before and will be them again and men > have been women before and will come back as them again. So we have all > probably lived through this debate countless times before. > > MattR IMO, this has been the best take on this subject. I was thinking just this the other day. Maybe it is true, what is being stated about wimmin! The Prophet Muhammad seemed to have a few wimmin problems - but then he had far too many wives!!!!!! We have learnt that a female can never become a Buddha, and [to stir the pot a bit further] it is stated somewhere - but can't say where - that it is somewhat better kamma to be born male than female. Whatever! and may we all have lots of patience, courage and good cheer, to put up with whatever we are. Azita. 36613 From: plnao Date: Sun Sep 19, 2004 4:10am Subject: Re: [dsg] OK, Abhidharma Hi Andrew > > Don't you also owe me a reply from a thread a week or two back? I was > really looking forward to reading through it. Sorry about that. Things kind of spin out control. What was it? I think I was talking about the rarity of moments of deep insight. I think I've had two. One was described in a post I entitled "My wife turned into paramattha dhammas!" If you go back in the archives to around February or March you'll find it - it spawned a fairly long thread. The gist was that I was lying on the floor one evening, reading ADL, and I suddenly looked up, and GOT IT, really GOT IT about the khandas, and about annica, and anatta. Was it intellectually, merely? Something deeper? I don't know, but it changed my experience of life. I just got home from a long day in Tokyo, so a bit lazy about putting it in deeper words than that - sorry. Try to find the thread, if you'd care to. The second was about a month ago. I was sitting teaching, with a physically attractive student to my left. This is something I deal with on occasion, rising sensual desire/lust, flashes of it, arising in certain situations. (My students are adults, BTW.) In the past I have fooled around with various methods of dealing with this situation, but on this occasion, perhaps inspired by the sutta about the gentleman who sees a set of teeth rather than a beautiful woman walking by, I suddenly and without any thought of doing so saw her as teeth, as elements, as not self, as a collection of impermanent aggregates that only an utter fool would waste another moment in sexual desire towards. I GOT IT. It wasn't an unkind feeling. It was very liberating, and allowed me to return to my usual kindly avuncular non-wolfish ways. It was a deep and sudden insight. It hasn't happened since, though the desire has arisen often enough. I still cope with less direct methods. So yes, I'd say I've had two deep insight moments this year, and in my life. I haven't described them well. They aren't really describable, are they? You can describe your experience of looking at the garbage can, but unless I'm in your skin the words have no import really, do they? I did find a passage in ADL that reminded me that I was wrong to say that the Buddha said it was impossible for a worldling to achieve Arahant in one life. In the suttas, there are examples of worldlings who did. On the other hand, wanted to point out two passages that may urge you towards more patience: Ch. 23 - please read the answer to the question "How does one know that one has attained enlightenment?" It nicely lays out the gradual stages of insight-wisdom. I also like this passage in Chapter 23 : "We cannot expect a great deal of sat and panna in the beginning. However, each moment of right awareness if fruitful, because it can conditon further moments of awareness and thus it can be accumulated. When panna realizes a phenomenon which appears are nama or rupa, there is less clinging to the concept of self and in this way ditthi is gradually eradicated, until finally all latent tendencies of ditthi are eradicated by the magga-citta (lokuttara kusal citta) of the sotapanna; then ditthi will never arise again." For me, sounds like a project for the next who knows how many lifetimes ....but of course it's none of my business how you go about your Dhamma practice and I will stop being a busybody about it. Metta, Phil 36614 From: Dan D. Date: Sun Sep 19, 2004 5:37am Subject: Re: [dsg] kusala vipaaka and akusala vipaaka. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > Hi Dan, > interesting point. Is it the name kusala.v. and akusala v. you find > confusing? Now is the time for me to discuss vipaaka. Right now I am > assembling my intro to the akusala vipaka, Visuddhimagga XIV, 101 Larry just > posted. I shall try to keep this in mind. The Tiika says something about > this. > As to kusala vipaaka I have already: > the mahaa-kusala cittas because of the accompanying cetasikas, their way of > occurring (pavatti-aakaara) is different. The kusala citta performs kusala > through the doors kamma [N: of body, speech or mind], but the vipaakacitta > does not. The vipaakacitta does not produce bodily intimation or speech > intimation. > N: The vipaakacittas do not perform deeds of generosity, etc.> > resultant should be understood as passive like the reflection of a face > in a looking-glass while the profitable is active like the face. > ========================================== > N: The Tiika explains the difference between active (ussaaha or with effort) > and passive (nirussaaha, without effort). We read: named because it is reckoned as the capacity to produce vipaaka, so long as > ignorance, clinging and conceit in the succession of cittas have not been > eradicated (anupacchinnaavijjaata.nhaamaanasantaane). As to vipaakacitta, > this does not have such activity, it is passive (nirussaaha).> > The Tiika states that also because kusala cittas are powerful while they > occur, they have the meaning of being active.> > The fact that they are called kusala vipaaka and akusala vipaaka merely > denotes that they are produced by kusala kamma and akusala kamma. They are > just one jaati: the jaati of vipaaka. > Nina. > op 18-09-2004 16:40 schreef Dan D. op onco111@y...: > > > The texts, though, talk about vipaka as > > akusalavipaka and kusalavipaka. This sounds strange (even > > superstitious) 36615 From: Dan D. Date: Sun Sep 19, 2004 5:47am Subject: Re: [dsg] kusala vipaaka and akusala vipaaka. Dear Nina, Thanks for the lovely passages from Vism. and the explanation of the distinction between kamma and vipaka. And, yes, in a sense it is the names kusalavipaka and akusalavipaka that I find confusing. It sounds quite odd to hear that pain is akusalavipaka, i.e. that all pain is caused by past bad kamma. Rob M is helping me enormously with this notion. He said (approximately) that the pain arises because the mind is in the habit of adverting attention to the painful sensation (natural decisive support condition -- NDSC). Without the NDSC, no pain. Also, the NDSC for pain is bolstered by akusala citta. At first glance, this explanation seems to have a lot of merit. [I hope I'm not horrifically misrepresenting Rob M's comments!] Metta, Dan > interesting point. Is it the name kusala.v. and akusala v. you find > confusing? 36616 From: Date: Sun Sep 19, 2004 1:50am Subject: Re: [dsg] To support or abandon your parents (child, relatives)? - Sutta-Nipâta Hi, Nori - In a message dated 9/19/04 2:14:11 AM Eastern Daylight Time, nori_public@a... writes: > Everyones parents or relatives will one day grow old or sick and will > possibly need (or will benefit from) the help of their children; > whether for emotional support, monetary support, medical support, or > physical support. > > I imagine that most people (and it is the case for me) would be > hesitant to consider the life of a contemplative (that is, wandering > recluse in seclusion) for concern for either 'son and wife, father > and mother, ...relatives'. > > I have considered it, and still consider it. However my parents are > old, I care about them and would like to be around in case they need > me. > > --- > > Of course it is well known that Gotama left his father and son to > seek realization and emancipation from suffering, despite the > pleading from his father not to. However his father was a wealthy > king, and could take care of himself as well as his grand son. > > --- > > Anyway, I am wondering what others make of these contradictory > statements? > > One in support of supporting your parents, One in support of > abandoning them (as well as children and relatives) to benefit > oneself. > > > ============================= At the Buddha's time, and perhaps today in some countries, a young son going forth actually relieved the family of some financial burden. In the case of an older son going forth, he might leave all of his wealth and possessions except for bare necessities with the family as a support for them. So, going forth is sometimes a support for the parents. I know of particular cases of westerners who have gone forth after having accumulated some wealth, and who still support the parents. Sometimes money is left in trust. One more thing: The Buddha did mention what an *enormous* debt a person owes to his/her parents, even to the point, as I vaguely recall, of the appropriateness of carrying them around on his/her shoulders. (As you point out, in the case of the Bodhisatta, his parents were well off, and, so, his leaving them was not thoughtless as regards their financial welfare.) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 36617 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Sep 19, 2004 5:51am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: flippin off the moon Hi, Dighanakha You suggest that everything can be seen as a matter of personal judgment ultimately. Well, that's one way of looking at it I suppose, but it still leaves the question of why prefer one source over another. Are you saying there are good reasons for preferring modern writers, or sectarian views, to the traditional commentators? BTW, no-one is taking the ancient texts as 'absolutely authoritative', since that implies uncritical acceptance. As we know, only directly realized knowledge counts in the long run, and the texts are but one factor (although a very important one) in the chain of development leading to that. Jon --- dighanakha wrote: ... > Hello Jon. > > If someone thinks "My own judgment is poor, so I'll trust the > judgment of the ancient arahant theras as reported by > Buddhaghosa" then it is by her own judgment that she has judged > Buddhaghosa's judgment to be better than her own. And it is by > her own judgment that she has judged the reportage of Buddhaghosa > to be a faithful account of the understanding of the Buddha's > arahant disciples (as the Theravada tradition claims) and not > merely one competing sectarian interpretation among others (as > modern scholars claim). So in a sense she is trusting her own > judgment no less than a person who tries to read and understand > the Tipitaka unaided by Buddhaghosa's exegesis, or aided by > Buddhaghosa's exegesis but not treating it as absolutely > authoritative. ... > So it seems that in the final analysis one is always -- and > ineluctably -- trusting one's own judgment. ... > Sincerely, Dighanakha Nutcracker 36618 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Sep 19, 2004 6:05am Subject: Re: [dsg] Anapanasati/ Jon II Hi, Eric --- ericlonline wrote: > Hey Jon, ... > In this case the Buddha was talking to monks. But > check out in the Samyuta 41.8 & 41.9. Here the householder > Citta is talking with two ascetics from other traditions. > Citta, a householder like you and me, says he has attained > the 4th Jhana and is reputed to be a non-returner. Wonder how he > attained to the 4th Jhana? Since he is a non-returner, > and had jhanic capabilites, I am sure he must > of practised some sort of samatha meditation. Do you > think it possibly was Anapanasati? Well, it could have been. Jhana is possible for a lay person, if the accumulations from previous lifetimes are appropriate (this phenomenon has been discussed on this list before). But this is not the same as saying that anapanasati was recommended by the Buddha as suitable and appropriate for everyone interested in developing insight. Citta the householder was a most exceptional kind of person (it's true he was like you and me in being a householder, but I suspect the resemblance ends there ;-)). > Well you seem to be agreeing with me then. If in another > Sutta he says it is One Factor and here groups it with > 9 other factors then it seems that he held it in high > regard. Not to mention, Anapanasati was what he was doing > on the eve of his Enlightenment! There is no doubt that anapanasati was highly commended by the Buddha in certain contexts. > Which one of the 9 do you use to cultivate > Right Concentration (i.e. jhana) Jon? Or are > you following an abbreviated version of the 8 > fold path? To my understanding, Right Concentration is the concentration that arises with certain other (mundane) path factors including Right Understanding. Whenever satipatthana is being developed, so is Right Concentration. If and when path consciousness (enlightenment) is attained, the Right Concentration will be of jhana level, and this is why it is described the way it is as a factor of the Noble Eightfold Path. Mundane jhana should not in my view be equated with Right Concentration, since mundane jhana can be developed even by someone who rejects the dhamma in favour of another teaching, including a teaching that asserts the existence of a soul or supreme god and denies the efficacy of deeds. Such a person experiencing jhana is surely not developing Right Concentration (or would you disagree?). > Also, to bolster my position. In the Samyuta just beyond > the 41.9 mentioned above, the Buddha is talking to Headmen. > Here he talks about teaching the SAME dhamma to 3 types of > people e.g. Bhikkhus, lay followers of his and people of other > sects. So, if he says he taught the same dhamma to all, then > Anapanasati was taught for the benefit of all! Couldn't find the passage I'm afraid, but would be happy to comment if you care to provide a reference. Jon 36619 From: Date: Sun Sep 19, 2004 2:07am Subject: Re: [dsg] "... as parasites a tree." ??? Hi, Matt - In a message dated 9/19/04 4:00:21 AM Eastern Daylight Time, mattroke@h... writes: > Whether women corrupted the sasana or not does not change what reality is > arising > and inpinging on the sense door right now. Whether the Buddha held those > views or > not, whether the Jataka Tales are true or fiction, whether the Teaching will > > last 500 > or 5,000 years does not change what reality is arising and impinging on the > sense > door right now. > > In the citta moment that arises right now there is no Jataka Tales, no > women, no > men, no Bhikhunis, no sexist views and no self; male or female. > > Understanding the Dhamma negates the stories and that is what makes it so > beautiful > and its followers so unique. ============================= I agree with the foregoing, I think it is important, and very well said! I recall also, I think it was with regard to dependent origination and conditionality, that the Buddha said that whether Buddhas arise in the world or not, the Dhamma is an objective reality. Specifically, there is the following: > "Whether or not there is the arising of Tathagatas, this property stands, > this steadfastness of the Dhamma, this orderliness of the Dhamma: All > fabrications are inconstant…."Anguttara Nikaya III.137 (Dhamma-niyama Sutta) ========================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 36620 From: Herman Hofman Date: Sun Sep 19, 2004 6:38am Subject: RE: [dsg] Flip-flopping Hi Matt, You sound like you know what you are talking about :-) Can I ask for some clarifications? ============== M > For citta to arise at the eye door there must be an object to experience. ============== H > Does the object exist independent of the citta or the eye door? Does the eye door exist independent of the citta or the object? Is there only ever one eye door? (I am just wondering why it is rendered "the eye door" as opposed to "an eye door" or "the eye doors") ============== M > That object has characteristics, which the citta then experiences. ============== H > Characteristics is a plural rendition. I would be happy to accept this as your personal experience, but if you are quoting theory, doesn't the theory stipulate otherwise? Kind Regards Herman 36621 From: Dan D. Date: Sun Sep 19, 2004 6:47am Subject: Re: Flip-flopping [Matt] Dear Matt, Great comments and questions about "dark" cittas! This issue strikes at the heart of understanding citta. You wrote: "...there are an amazing number of *dark* cittas in between the *light* cittas. And yet it seems as though there is seeing all the time without any gaps; visible object without anything in between." That's testament to the power of sañña (recognition, memory)! One moment of seeing is followed by a long series of hearing, thinking, akusala citta, etc. Then, another moment of seeing. But the long series of "dark" cittas took place so rapidly that the new visual object appears extremely similar to the previous one. The function of sañña is to give the impression "I recognize this object. It is just like the one a moment ago. Oh, yes, I'm seeing the same thing." The "recognize, recognize, recognize" leads to the impression "same, same, same" which leads to an impression of continuous seeing. Now, go through the same exercise for hearing: One moment of hearing is followed by a long series of silent cittas -- seeing, thinking, akusala citta, etc. Sañña recognizes one moment of hearing as being very similar to the previous one, which leads to the impression "same, same, same" and the impression of continuous hearing. Likewise for thinking. It can even seem like all the cittas arising as I sit here are light, noisy, and with unbroken continuity of thought. But, really, each citta has its own characteristics -- hearing, seeing, thinking, akusala, kusala, etc. Matt: "We can intellectually appreciate that there are numerous *dark* cittas in between *light* cittas but are we experiencing them?" Yes, we certainly are experiencing them. However, there may not be understanding that, e.g., seeing is distinct from hearing. On occasion, though, there may be a flash of recognition that moments of seeing are distinctly different from moments of hearing. On reflection after the fact, the moments of hearing seem utterly dark and the moments of seeing, utterly silent. This is not anything like looking for darkness in hearing! It's more like simply understanding the nature of hearing as hearing, seeing as seeing. Matt: "If *the experience of being without eye-consciousness is very common* then we would not need to be reminded of them." We do need to be reminded -- and often. So many moments arise that are not eye-consciousness. We experience them all the time, but it is easy to get confused and see them as moments of eye-consciousness instead of ear-consciousness, etc. They ALL *seem* to be going on continuously, but on closer examination, they are quite distinct -- arising and passing away very rapidly; nothing to cling to; no abiding, continuous Self to cling. Metta, Dan 36622 From: Date: Sun Sep 19, 2004 2:56am Subject: Re: [dsg] Flip-flopping Hi, Matt - In a message dated 9/19/04 4:23:28 AM Eastern Daylight Time, mattroke@h... writes: > When there is an absence of sound it is because there is no audible object > for > the citta to experience. When there is an absence of light there is still an > > object for > the citta to experience but it only experiences it for the object reality > that it is, not > as an absence of light, that happens in the mind door. > ========================== But this asymmetry makes no sense to me. Absence of sound in the phenomenological (i.e., experiential) sense is commonly called "silence". Is it an ear-door experience or a mind-door experience? I think it is the latter, a sound-oriented mind-door experience which is not a matter of concept. What do you mean by "absence of light"? It seems you mean something not experiential, but as having some physics sense, something not analogous to the experiential absence of sound. When I speak of "darkness" I am speaking of experiential absence of positive visual content in the same way as you speak of absence of sound as there being no audible object "for the citta to experience." This is visual absence known through the mind door. It seem to me that there are many "colors" of sound, but these are all different from degrees of silence. Likewise, it seems to me that there are many colors of sight - here I needn't put 'colors' in quotes - and these are all different from degrees of "darkness". The trouble is that 'darkness' is a term that is not a proper visual analog for the auditory term of 'silence'. We tend to identify 'darkness' with shades of color, the extreme of which is black. But blackness is not "visual silence". We lack a term for visual silence. But that does not mean that we lack visual silence! ;-) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 36623 From: Date: Sun Sep 19, 2004 3:01am Subject: Re: [dsg] Thinking and thoughts -- status of Hi, Jon - In a message dated 9/19/04 5:28:11 AM Eastern Daylight Time, jonoabb@y... writes: > > As you know, "object" is a translation of the Pali term (arammana) used in > the texts. I believe your use of "experiential content" to be > idiosyncratic ;-)). Is there some advantage in using this term/concept? > > ========================== For me there is an advantage. The term 'content' (for me) lacks a connotation of of independence/self-existence moreso than does the term 'object'. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 36624 From: Date: Sun Sep 19, 2004 3:09am Subject: Re: [dsg] Thinking and thoughts -- status of Hi, Jon - In a message dated 9/19/04 5:28:11 AM Eastern Daylight Time, jonoabb@y... writes: > >All that I maintained is that > >'vi~n~nana' in the scheme of paticcasamupada is more than mere > >experiencing - it is > >defiled experiencing, defiled by the sense of subject, by I-making. > >------------------------------------------------- > > I'm not sure I understand. Are you saying that the moment of actual > seeing and other 5-sense door consciousness are (or can be) either kusala > or akusala in nature? What exactly do you mean by 'defiled experiencing'? > (The generally understood (orthodox) position is of course that seeing > and other 5-sense door consciousness are vipaka and accordingly are > neither kusala or akusala in nature.) > ========================== I am interpreting 'vi~n~nana' in the scheme of dependent origination to refer to the self-oriented knowing: the illusory sense of a subject encountering an object. This, of course, is the consequence of sankhara, which in turn is a consequence of avijja. For further clarification, there is my whole sequence of past posts on this matter to look at. I'd really rather not go through that all again at this juncture, though. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 36625 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Sep 19, 2004 8:02am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: kamma-condition. Dear Htoo, There is sahajaata kamma paccaya (conascent), and there is naanakhanika kamma paccaya (working from a different time, asynchronous kamma, of the past). Kamma is cetana cetasika. See the Patthana. Cetana that accompanies each citta conditions the accompanying dhammas by way of sahajaata kamma-condition. It coordinates the work of the accompanying dhammas. See Rob M's post. For those who have U Narada's Guide to Condiitonal Relations: p. 51. Nina. op 17-09-2004 15:17 schreef htootintnaing op htootintnaing@y...: > I would say kamma is cetana which accompanied 29 javana cittas in the > past. In the past include time which is not now and future. > > These 29 cittas are > > 1. 12 akusala cittas > 2. 8 mahakusala cittas > 3. 5 rupakusala cittas > 4. 4 arupakusala cittas > > Cetana in other cittas?? I do not know. Once I asked Nina and she > said both expressions are right. These 2 expressions are > > 1. Kamma is cetana in past 29 jvana cittas > 2. Kamma is cetana in all 89 cittas 36626 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Sep 19, 2004 8:02am Subject: Re: [dsg] OK, Abhidharma Hi Al, (Howard at the end), op 18-09-2004 00:15 schreef Andrew Levin op andrewlevin@e...: > Regarding Chapter four of Nina's 'Abhidharma in Daily Life,' Eradication of craving. ================ > There is craving in the lobha-mula-cittas. How do we eradicate this > lobha, this craving. I was told previously that mere recognition of > the citta can decrease its bearing on the mind. But how are we to > root out the craving. Is it the same for craving? From my current > understanding, only when we are seeing things in the present as > impermanent and selfless will there be no craving present. Please > correct me if this is not the case. N: Phil also touched on this point. When kusala citta with daana arises, there is no craving at that moment. Each kusala citta is accompanied by alobha, non-attachment. When we reflect on the Dhamma there is no craving. The person who attains the third stage of enlightenment, the non-retuner has eradicated clinging to sense objects. All kinds of craving can only be eradicated by the arahat. He is liberated from the cycle. The links of ignorance and craving are cut off. Wrong view. ======== A: Next, is wrong views. This is something that captures my interest. > The book I am trying to practise out of, a commentary on the > Maha-satipatthana sutta, states that we need knowledge of Abhidharma > for the third foundation of mindfulness, that is, contemplation of > mind. N: The same is true for the other foundations of mindfulness. I would say, a basic knowledge of citta, cetasika and rupa is most helpful. A: Now I have felt that I could recognize one of these wrong > views, ditthis, as it arose in me. If I could recognize which citta > it accompanied, even better (this should happen as I memorize the > different types of citta). N: We cannot find out much so long as we do not even know the difference between nama and rupa, the first stage of tender insight. I think that it does not help much to try to recognize different kinds of wrong view. When sati of satipatthana arises wrong view may be the object, we cannot predic this. Only then can it be understood more clearly. Wrong view is a kind of clinging, and understanding leads to detachment. Detachment is the goal, but right from the beginning there should be detachment form an idea of: I do it, I shall try to catch this or that dhamma. A: But how am I to know which wrong view it > is, ie an eternal self wrong view (further, does this eternal self > wrong view hold that the body is a self, or does it apply to all > phenomenon?), the annihilation self view, and wrong view about kamma > and vipaka, thinking purification can come about through rites and > rituals. Especially the last one, I wouldnt be able to recognize that > such a wrong view was present in my mind. N: That is very good. It helps to know that we are inclined to manipulate sati so long as we are not sotapannas. It also helps to know that this is not the way. A: ....does absence of wrong view indicate right view is > present? I wouldn't think so. N: There are many levels of right view or pañña. There is no wrong view at a moment of intellectual understanding. But, the latent tendency is there. A: So how do we go about instilling right > view in ourselves? N: So, we have to be careful here. Before we know it, there is an idea of self who wants to do this. But your question is good. As intellectual understanding grows, there will be less conditions for coarse wrong view, of the intellectual level. But when there are conditions for direct awareness and understanding sati and paññaa arise and they are more effective in wearing out wrong view. A: For instance, the Buddha has said right view is > 'undistorted vision' of the existence of this world, the next... There is > also the wrong view of seeing 'self' in things. The latter type can > be annihilated through meditation, I believe, but that only works to > an extent on the former. N: There are two kinds of meditation or bhaavana: samatha and vipassana. Only through vipassana wrong view of self can be eradicated. A:.... I have heard it said that we can > straighten our views by questioning monks and reading good dhamma > books, but I plainly don't see how this is the case. It seems to me > it should be experiential, ie, when you give, you should know that > there is something given, you should know there is mother and father. N: Straightening our views, a good topic. It is the tenth basis of kusala. There are many levels again. It can go together with each kind of kusala. When you speak words of appreciation to your parents with kusala citta, it is a form of dana. At that moment the citta knows the benefit of kusala. That is a level of straightening one's views. Before, we knew very little about kusala and akusala, anyway, not in such a precise way. Straightening our views is not: thinking that you should know that there is something given, you should know there is mother and father. As to the last one, the meaning is: parents you can help with kusala citta, and that kusala citta can bear fruit. A: "There is fruit and result of > good and bad actions," which is not in fact vision but only memorized > from scripture. N: Yes, it is still intellectual understanding. It is bound to be like that. Through insight there can be direct understanding of kamma and vipaaka, no thinking. In fact even when the first stage of insight is reached, but for me it is still theoretical. A: So, straightening wrong views is a topic that I'd like to hear more > about, and I'd also like to learn about the nature of views, right or > wrong, themselves. N: It helps to remember that wrong view is accompanied by clinging and right view is accompanied by detachment. You wrote to Phil: The noticing will not do it, alas. Actually, I should not say alas, it is a good thing. It shows us that we are not possessor of the cittas nor of kusala or akusala. As Howard said: defilements are not-self is sufficient for their removal, but rather is *necessary* for that. It is one requisite condition, because "so long as we take defilements for self or 'mine' they cannot be eradicated" - that is, so long as they are taken as personal and intrinsic, removal is blocked.> We should see defilement as just dhamma, as an impersonal element, arising because of its own conditions. We can reflect on what we read in the suttas: the sotapanna has eradicated wrong view, not the other forms of lobha. He can laugh and cry, has all kinds of emotions. But he does not have coarse akusala. To me this makes a lot of sense. Defilements are so stubborn, think of the latent tendencies, they can condition the arising of akusala citta at anytime. And very sudden and unexpectedly too. The eradication can only be stage by stage. Nina. 36627 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Sep 19, 2004 8:02am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: function, manifestation, etc. Hi Howard, op 18-09-2004 13:48 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: It is clear, I believe, that > we are commonly and easily aware of many cetasikas. ....when we > are seeing or tasting or smelling or hearing or having bodily feeling or > cognizing, we are also aware (unreflectively) of that also? Now is that not > being > aware of awareness? N: I see it like that. The use of the word awareness could be ambivalent, but i know what you mean. Being conscious. H: This sort of nondual awareness of awareness is > rather much the normal state of affairs, I think, for human beings. > The thing is: I don't think that the direct (i.e., uninferred) > awareness of being aware amounts to taking of a mindstate or act of knowing as > an object in a dualistic manner. In order for a mindstate or act of knowing to be > an arammana in the sense of an object grasped by an act of knowing, there must > be two simultaneous acts of knowing, the subject and the object, and I don't > think that is an occurring situation. N: Only one citta at a time, never two. I find that this makes sense. I cannot think of two things at a time. But, because of our ignorance, it seems that cittas such as seeing and hearing can last and be there at the same time. That is because their true nature of impermanence has not been realized. I do not realize their arising and falling away and thus also I do not realize their anattaness. One citta can only be known by another citta, a citta does not know itself. H: The fresh memory of a mindstate that has recently passed may be the content of a current mindstate, but other than that, awareness of awareness must be a subtle, nondual experience. N: When sati arises it can be aware of seeing that has just fallen away. There can also be awareness (sati) and understanding of awareness that has fallen away a moment ago, and this is very necessary. Otherwise we take awareness (sati) for self. Detachment is the goal, but wrong view is in the way. You see the importance of the eradication of wrong view that has to be first. As you said, so long as we take defilements for self or 'mine' they cannot be eradicated. But now we have to speak about the practice. You are afraid that an idea of subject and object is in the way. When sati is aware of the characteristic of seeing as an experience, there is no need to think of subject and object. It is a matter of just attending to the characteristic of seeing, that is all. And I am reminding myself now!! When sati is aware of what appears through the eyes, colour, light or the visible, name it anything you like, it attends just to that characteristic. No thinking of subject and object, no thinking of nondual experience. In that way you can find out by direct awareness and understanding that there is a kind of dhamma that experiences and that there is a kind of dhamma that does not experience. Visible object does not know: I am looked at! Why should we find out whether an experience is dualistic or not. I think that this does not lead to detachment. One may take a nondual experience for self. Big selves, small selves, always around the corner. Another example. Touch a conglomeration of rupas we call a log and touch the body. Hardness appears. But the hardness of a log is not different from the hardness of the body. This can lead to detachment from my precious body. It is like a log of wood. Shouldn't we profit from the words the Buddha speaks in the suttas about the element of earth that is hardness? Shouldn't we use all means to become detached? We learn that the first stage of insight is knowing the difference between nama and rupa. We learn this, but it also makes sense to me. If we take together body, bodysense, bodily feeling, mental feeling as one mass, we cling, no way out. But when pañña analyses different dhammas, there will be nothing left that is worth clinging to. Just the very ephemeral tiniest elements. Nothing important, nothing attractive. We should remember the ³Discourse on the Manifold Elements² (Middle length Sayings, no 115)where we read: The element of touch is just tangible object, it can be earth or hardness. When the Buddha spoke to Rahula about the element of earth he was not merely speaking in the figurative sense. He said: It seems only symbolic, but it is more. This was a reminder to see the body as earth, that there is not the whole body, only different elements. The four great elements and other rupas. Rahula was so attached to the body. Very important point. Pañña has to know nama and rupa, it cannot be avoided. Nina. 36628 From: connieparker Date: Sun Sep 19, 2004 8:43am Subject: Re: the age of wisdom Dear Nina, In the discussion on 'the material septad', ch. XX, 50: 2.(b) Having attributed the three characteristics according to 'disappearance of what grows old in each stage' thus by means of the first stage, etc., he again attributes the three characteristics according to 'disappearance of what grows old in each stage' by means of the following ten decades: the tender decade, the sport decade, the beauty decade, the strength decade, the understanding decade, the decline decade, the stooping decade, the bent decade, the dotage decade and the prone decade. 51: Herein, as to these decades: in the first place, the first ten years of a person with a hundred years' life are called the tender decade; for then he is a tender unsteady child. the next ten years are called the sport decade; for he is very fond of sport then. The next ten years are called the beauty decade; for his beauty reaches its full extent then. The next ten years are called the strength decade; for his strength and power reach their full extent then. The next ten years are called the understanding decade; for his understanding is well established by then. Even in one naturally weak in understanding some understanding, it seems, arises at that time. The next ten years are called the decline decade; for his fondness for sport and his beauty, strength and understanding decline then. Then next ten years are called the stooping decade; for his figure [620] stoops forward then. The next ten years are called the bent decade; for his figure becomes bent like the end of a plough then. The next ten years are called the dotage decade; for his is doting then and forgets what he does. The next ten years are called the prone decade; for a centenarian mostly lies prone. 52: Herein, in order to attribute the characteristics according to 'disappearance of what grows old in each stage' by means of these decades, the meditator considers thus: The materiality occurring in the first decade ceases there without reaching the second decade: therefore it is impermanent, painful, not self. The materiality occurring in the second decade ... the materiality occurring in the ninth decade ceases there without reaching the tenth decade; the materiality occurring in the tenth decade ceases there without reaching the next becoming: therefore it is impermanent, painful, not self. - This is how he attributes the three characteristics. It goes on (53-60) to break the hundred years and a single year down in various ways, then (61-65) by changes in postures and elements/derived materiality/formations. There is the simile of the lamps' oil and wick (66-67) and then discussion on the materiality arising from nutriment, temperature, kamma and consciousness (68-73) and finally (74-75), natural materiality ("not bound up with faculties and arises along with the aeon of world expansion"), shown by the changing colours of the asoka tree shoot. Parts of Bangkok visit me! I had just mentioned 'the age of wisdom' to a friend in passing, thinking how lucky I am to have found such dhamma friends. Still, no 'my understanding' and only what little may arise to slowly accumulate as long as it is supported by material conditions growing old even as they arise, so a sense of urgency even if I am immature enough to hope there is still time. ;) As a friend said of parents, they are like our personal arahants. Even in repaying them, because they are such great fields of merit, our debt increases. peace, connie Nina wrote: lucky you. I read it somewhere in the Vis itself but would need time to search. Each decad is characterized, like the reclining age, but my father is not yet reclining. Decad of beauty, of strength. Do not take it too literally, it is never too late to develop understanding. I was in Bgk between forty and fifty. Nina. 36629 From: htootintnaing Date: Sun Sep 19, 2004 10:12am Subject: 21 questions about Buddhism ( 07 ) Continue-: Catalin: 13)Doesn't Karma eliminate free will? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Karma is not a Pali word. It is kamma that is Pali word. It is potential that exists because someone did something with impure volition. So it is nothing to do with 'free will'. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Catalin: For example if X hurts Z then X is forced to hurt Z because Z mistakes from his past lives so the negative karma from Z is transfered to X? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: No. There is mistake in this statement. X hurts Z. In which way? a) X hurts Z without any unwholesome intention and it is just an incidental, X does not have any kamma that would give rise to effect in his future regarding this hurting. b) X hurts Z with the intention to hurt Z. There is no attraction from Z which invite X to hurt him because of Z's past kamma. But X hurts de novo. So X is responsible for his action and he now owns a new kamma. In both case, Z was hurt. he was hurt because he has past kamma. This kamma does not invite anyone to hurt Z. Anyone A, or B or C or ...V or W or X may hurt Z. Even non-beings may hurt Z because of Z's past kamma. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Catalin: And what if X is just evil and Z is good and was also good in his past lives , why is he suffering from another cause different than karma? And if karma decides everything, and every effect has a cause and causes cannot be created by human beings, isn't that a believe in a unchangeable destiny and the elimination of free will? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: No. You are wrong to assume these. There are kamma. Kamma exist in different form as the actions when beings did them were different. Kamma does not decide everything. But Kamma does decide what beings does and what they should receive for their action. Here on this earth and in this world, there are many destructions. Destruction of things does not have any kamma. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Catalin: 14)Rebirth and karma-where are the proves they exist? They don't seem more real than the gods of ancient Greece or Santa Clauses... It is is true that every effect has a cause but there is no prove of the existence of good and bad outside a particular moral system (and moral systems can be different, and are in constant changing), so that means if in you society is bad to be gay then the gay karma is bad and if the society changes and being gay (for example) is good then also karma is positive? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: You are talking in the context of unreality. Topic: Being gay Being gay or not gay is not anything to give comment. But if they suffer, they are having the results of their past kamma. This is not related to society. But if societies have different opinions, their reflections on gayhood cause a further suffering. This is another kamma. If you are a gay and your current society does not allow or does not accept gay, you will be suffering because of unacceptance. If you move to another society where all are gays your sufferings regarding reflections will be less. But kamma in your past will not be lessened. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Catalin: Who decides what is good and what is bad and how much good and bad karma should be assigned to a particular deed? Like I said, karma and rebirth look like pure mythology. There is no one who decides good and bad. They are intrinsic nature. In Buddhism, there is no mythology. With Metta, Htoo Naing PS: To be continued-: 36630 From: htootintnaing Date: Sun Sep 19, 2004 10:14am Subject: 21 questions about Buddhism ( 08 ) Continue-: Catalin: 15)How can we trust personal experiences through meditation and other Buddhist practices? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Your personal experiences is your own experiences and they are good examples. But if you do not have enough wisdom to analyse them, how far you should trust on your personal experiences will have some limitations. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Catalin: An schizophrenic or someone who takes LSD or someone who stayed too much in the sun may meet Santa Claus, then that means that Santa Claus exists? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: You have to prove Santa Claus first. Schizophrenics have perception problem. When perceptions are not right, they can see anything not only Santa Claus but anything imaginable. The same applies to intoxicants, alcohol and drugs. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Catalin: And some branches of Tibetan Buddhism even use some weird and questionable methods to attain "truth"... ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: If you really see what intrinsic nature of the natures, then you will no more have any queries. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Catalin: 16)Why are sects like pure land Buddhism and nichiren Buddhism (especially SGI) (and even left hand tantra vajrayana Buddhism) considered as being "Buddhist"? Jainism and some Hindu sects are MUCH closer to Buddhism than them! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: If wholeness is not well understood, then every part may be assumed as wholeness. There is only one and a single Buddhism. This is no doubt. As soon as someone thinks that there are 2 types, 3 types, 4 types, then they are no more original Buddhism. There are no 2 Buddhas. No 3 Buddhas. There is no Siddattha Gotama as The Buddha for Vajrayana, Hinayana, Mahayana. The Buddha did exist. His name was Siddattha Gotama. He discovered the way to reach nibbana. He left the messages how to reach nibbana. Hindus will be proud if it is said Hinduism is the oldest religion. The father of Siddattha Gotama, the stepmother of Siddhattha Gotama, and most people at that time in India were all Hindu with the exception of a few who practised Dogism, Oxism etc etc. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: To be continued-: 36631 From: htootintnaing Date: Sun Sep 19, 2004 10:15am Subject: 21 questions about Buddhism ( 09 ) Continues-: Catalin: 17)Is Buddhism part of the Hindu religion as some Hindus say who also see Buddha a reincarnations of their God? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: No. Totally wrong. Completely false. Hindus are all Attavadi while Buddhists are all Anattavadi. Atta and Anatta are opposite. Completely opposite. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Catalin: 18)Can I be a Buddhist without a Buddhist community existing in my city and country and belonging only in "Internet shanghas" and having only web sites and groups like this one as teachers? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Sure, Sir. As soon as you take refuge in The Buddha, The Dhamma, The Sangha, at least at that time you are a Buddhist. As soon as you disgard The Buddha, The Dhamma, The Sangha, you lose your refuge. How about those who are departing and joining? This is a separate issue. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: To be continued-: 36632 From: htootintnaing Date: Sun Sep 19, 2004 10:46am Subject: 21 questions about Buddhism ( 10 ) Continues-: Catalin: 19) If someones believes in the Buddhist philosophy and way of life but rejects Buddhist mythology (karma,rebirth,gods,etc.) is he a Buddhist? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: You have to define your mythology here. Whatever reject, if you take refuge in The Buddha, The Dhamma and The Sangha, you will be a Buddhist. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Catalin: For example I see Buddhism paths as a way to reprogram the brain and lie it to become happy and stop fearing dead (reaching nirvana), am I a Buddhist(yes,I am a programmer and an engineer :) )? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: The Path does not reprogram the brain. There is no brain in ultimate sense. The Path not only stop fear but also eradicate all the defilements and all the fetters. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Catalin: And I see karma as a moral law: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Karma is not a Pali word. It is kamma. Anyway, kamma is one of 5 natural laws. They are bija niyama, utuja niyama, kamma niyama, citta niyama and dhamma niyama. Nothing is outside of these 5 laws.And these 5 laws are not laid down by anyone but they are natural laws. No one including Sammasambuddhas can influence these laws. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Catalin: if you hurt someone then that someone may hurt you ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Are you thinking immediate effect? As soon as you hurt someone, you have already hurt yourself. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Catalin: but for example if someone kills someone and no one knows or someones donates huge sums of money without anyone knowing then that person isn't affected in any good or bad way by any paranormal Karma force (maybe only his conscience is affected depending of his view of the world). ---------------- Htoo: Sorry for breakage. This long sentence is not clear at least for me and target cannot be found even though some other people found and replied them. I will be looking forward to Catalin's rephrasing on this long sentence. Will you, Catalin? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Catalin: 20)Where can I find all the pali canon for download (in English) and also the main writings of the other main Buddhism schools (Zen, Tibetan,Tendai,Pure Land, etc.)?And also a guide with the names of these writings (for example "The pali Canon contains the sutras named X,Y,...")and what they contain and what is their importance in different schools(for example" the pali canon contains sutra X which is important for the Z school but unimportant for the A schools"). I found some collections of e-books but I don't know which belongs to pali canons and which to other schools and which is more important and which is less important to study. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: This is not a question to answer. You can choose your way. My personal opinion is that I would suggest you to explore the following sites. 1. www.buddhanet.net 2. www.accesstoinsight.org 3. www.metta.lk 4. www.nibbana.com 5. www.buddhism.mandalar.net ....etc etc. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Catalin: 21)Where are the best places on the Internet to place questions like these? I hope you will forgive my bad English and don't find any of my questions offensive. If this is not the right place to put these questions then I am sorry. Catalin ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: dhamma-list, dhammastudygroup, DSList, triplegem, JourneyToNibbana, TeachingsOfBuddha, SariputtaDhamma, and many others. All your writing are legible and you used a good English. Questions are not offensive. And you have been polite as we all can see. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Catalin: PS: I chose to post to these 5 groups because from all the Buddhist groups from Yahoo they seem most active. I again apologize if I broke any rule but I don't know where else could I ask these questions. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: If you do not yet know the rules, read them. So far in these 21 questions, I did not find anything wrong. So I hope all questions and your way of asking is permissible hopefully by all groups, if not all at least most groups. And this is the end of answer sections to your 21 questions. I have to look for your response that is rephrasing of part of 20th question as I have suggested. May you benefit from these 21 answers. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 36633 From: htootintnaing Date: Sun Sep 19, 2004 11:05am Subject: Re: Dhamma Thread ( 065 ) Dear Dhamma Friends, Own correction has to be done as there is no one who saw the error pointing out. Sotapatti phala lokuttara vipaka citta is 86th citta of 89 cittas in total rather than 85th which is arahatta magga lokuttara kusala citta. With Metta, Htoo Naing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >Gotrabhu citta is still kamavacara citta and it is still a puthujana's citta here. But it is the last citta in puthujanahood. So it is also called lineage-changing consciousness. As soon as gotrabhu passes away, sotapatti magga lokuttara kusala citta arises. This is the 82nd citta of 89 cittas in total. >After that 'sotapatti phala lokuttara vipaka citta' follows. There follow another two phala cittas and after that bhavanga cittas arise. These phala cittas are fruition consciousness resulting from sotapatti magga citta. This phala citta is 85th citta of 89 cittas in total. >May you all be free from suffering. >With Unlimited Metta >Htoo Naing 36634 From: htootintnaing Date: Sun Sep 19, 2004 11:43am Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 066 ) Dear Dhamma Friends, Now dhamma practitioner is sotapatti phalatthana puggala. He is now the second from the bottom in the list of sainthood. There are 8 ariya puggalas. 8 lokuttara cittas arise only in these 8 puggalas. Even though he is now a sotapanna, he is not in phala cittas all the time. He has to do all the routine as he always does. But now his lineage has been changed. He is no more puthujana. He does not have any doubt in The Buddha, The Dhamma, The Sangha. He does not have any wrong view. His defilements are not the same as he had. Now he is a stream-enterer. He is in the stream. That is the stream of dhamma flow and this flow will carry him to the ocean nibbana in not more than 7 rebirths and may be less than that if he attains further higher nanas. He knows that things are not like before. This is not they changed. But his view has been totally changed. There is no more wrong view. He has the right view. This right view makes him live in purity. He meditates on nama dhamma and rupa dhamma. He is in mahasatipatthana whenever he remembers. He has once passed the Path. Next time when he approaches the Path, he has much more powerful wisdom and he can penetrate more than he could. Because of his trying continuously in meditation, good mental factors are his friends even though sometimes there are some defilements. When he reproaches the Path, the necessary dhammas arise in him and he is well calm. He is mindful and he tries to cultivate the already existing his sotapatti magga nana to obtain higher nana. Once when there are necessary dhamma there, kamavacara mahakusala cittas arise in series one after another. At a time he lapses into bhavanga cittas. Bhavanga cittas are arrested by manodvaravajjana citta, which now sees dhamma as anatta and increases dispassion. After its passing away, there arise successive kamavacaramahakusala cittas in the names of parikamma (preparatory consciousness ), upacara( proximity consciousness ), anuloma (balancing-negotiating consciousness ). After anuloma citta, there arises gotrabhu citta which is a kamavacara mahakusala citta but having a lineage-changing capacity. As soon as it arises to leave sotapamhood and it passes away. After that sakadagami magga citta arises penetrating sufferings as sufferings, removing the cause of sufferings, seeing nibbana while Noble Eightfold Path is developing fully. This citta is called 'sakadagami magga lokuttara kusala citta'. It is 83rd citta of 89 cittas in total. After that without gap, its resultant consciousness called 'sakadagami phala lokuttara vipaka citta' arises. This citta is 87th citta of 89 cittas. There follow a further 2 successive sakadagami phala lokuttara citta if there was no parikamma citta. Now kilesas or defilements become much much more thinner than ever before. He is now a sakadagam. Sakadagami is composed of 'sakkim' and 'aagami'. Sakkim means once. Aagami means coming back to gama or sensuous worldly realm. He may be reborn in human realm once after this life. His last life will be in one of 5 suddhavasa catuttha jhana bhumis of ariyas where anagams and arahats dwell. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta Htoo Naing PS:Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome and they will be valuable. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts. 36635 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Sep 19, 2004 0:28pm Subject: Re: [dsg] "... as parasites a tree." ??? Dear Azita, op 19-09-2004 13:02 schreef gazita2002 op gazita2002@y...: > IMO, this has been the best take on this subject. N: I agree. Long ago I asked Kh Sujin about women compared to a snake. She said: I just take such words as a reminder to be aware of my own defilements. That is why I am inclined to become very silent. There are many kinds of akusala accumulated as latent tendencies. These can suddenly condition very ugly akusala. True, it is a weaker vipaka to be born a woman. But women can become arahats. Nina. 36636 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Sep 19, 2004 0:28pm Subject: Re: [dsg] kusala vipaaka and akusala vipaaka. op 19-09-2004 14:47 schreef Dan D. op onco111@y...: It sounds > quite odd to hear that pain is akusalavipaka, i.e. that all pain is > caused by past bad kamma. Rob M is helping me enormously with this > notion. He said (approximately) that the pain arises because the mind > is in the habit of adverting attention to the painful sensation > (natural decisive support condition -- NDSC). Without the NDSC, no > pain. N: For kamma to produce result as painful feeling it also needs NDSC. But I find this matter very intricate. A. Sujin mentioned this. I do not know about adverting to pain as a cause. D: Also, the NDSC for pain is bolstered by akusala citta. N: I cannot follow that. Nina. 36637 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Sep 19, 2004 0:28pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Flip-flopping [Matt] Dear Dan, I appreciate your post, giving us more reminders while elaborating on Matt's words. Those are helpful discussions. Nina. op 19-09-2004 15:47 schreef Dan D. op onco111@y...: > The "recognize, recognize, recognize" leads to the impression "same, > same, same" which leads to an impression of continuous seeing. 36638 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Sep 19, 2004 0:28pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Eight attainments (attha samaapattiyo) Dear Christine, They are eight jhana attainments, rupajhana and arupa jhana. In this annotation I cannot find the sutta. Which part of S.N.? op 19-09-2004 09:48 schreef christine_forsyth op cforsyth1@b...: > I was reading a sutta called "The Counterfeit of the Dhamma" SN > 16.13 36639 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Sep 19, 2004 0:28pm Subject: Re: [dsg] "... as parasites a tree." ??? Dear Matt, appreciating your post very much. Very helpful. You point out what really matters in life! Nina. op 19-09-2004 10:00 schreef matt roke op mattroke@h...: > Whether women corrupted the sasana or not does not change what reality is > arising > and inpinging on the sense door right now. Whether the Buddha held those > views or > not, whether the Jataka Tales are true or fiction, whether the Teaching will > last 500 > or 5,000 years does not change what reality is arising and impinging on the > sense > door right now. > > In the citta moment that arises right now there is no Jataka Tales, no > women, no > men, no Bhikhunis, no sexist views and no self; male or female. > > Understanding the Dhamma negates the stories and that is what makes it so > beautiful > and its followers so unique. > > On a worldly note: women have been men before and will be them again and men > have been women before and will come back as them again. So we have all > probably lived through this debate countless times before. 36640 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sun Sep 19, 2004 1:23pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Eight attainments (attha samaapattiyo) Hello Nina, Thank you for that information. It is from Samyutta Nikaya II. The Book of Causation (Nidaanavagga)16.Kassapasa.myutta 13 The Counterfeit of the True Dhamma (B.Bodhi trans. p.681/2) It has the numbers [224] and [225] referring to other translations, I think. metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > Dear Christine, > They are eight jhana attainments, rupajhana and arupa jhana. In this > annotation I cannot find the sutta. Which part of S.N.? > op 19-09-2004 09:48 schreef christine_forsyth op cforsyth1@b...: > > > I was reading a sutta called "The Counterfeit of the Dhamma" SN > > 16.13 36641 From: nori Date: Sun Sep 19, 2004 3:35pm Subject: Re: [dsg] To support or abandon your parents (child, relatives)? - Sutta-Nipâta Hi Howard, H: > One more thing: The > Buddha did mention what an *enormous* debt a person owes to his/her parents, > even to the point, as I vaguely recall, of the appropriateness of carrying > them around on his/her shoulders. (As you point out, in the case of the > Bodhisatta, his parents were well off, and, so, his leaving them was not thoughtless > as regards their financial welfare.) > > With metta, > Howard Yes, I remember that Sutta. Went something like: 'Even if one were to carry both parents around on his shoulders, one would still not repay ones debt to his/her parents; for parents do much, endure much, for their children.' Something like that, its from memory. I think an important point maybe, is that one should not go forth if it is not appropriate for that one's life. I could imagine in some Buddhist countries, maybe, some parents being happy and proud for their child if they have chosen to go forth. In this case it is probably appropriate. However, what do you think about going forth if doing so worried and stressed the mother (even though being financially, and in other aspects secure)? Thanks for your valuable feedback. metta, nori 36642 From: Bill Saint-Onge Date: Sun Sep 19, 2004 3:55pm Subject: Re: [dsg] To support or abandon your parents (child, relatives)? - Sutta-Nipâta Hello All, It seems that I read somewhere that a part of the Thai ordination proceedure was the bhikku-to-be confirming that both parents had given permission for him to go forth. I'm not sure if that's from suttas, or vinaya, or thai custom--or even that it's correct information :) With metta, Bill nori wrote: Hi Howard, H: > One more thing: The > Buddha did mention what an *enormous* debt a person owes to his/her parents, > even to the point, as I vaguely recall, of the appropriateness of carrying > them around on his/her shoulders. (As you point out, in the case of the > Bodhisatta, his parents were well off, and, so, his leaving them was not thoughtless > as regards their financial welfare.) > > With metta, > Howard Yes, I remember that Sutta. Went something like: 'Even if one were to carry both parents around on his shoulders, one would still not repay ones debt to his/her parents; for parents do much, endure much, for their children.' Something like that, its from memory. I think an important point maybe, is that one should not go forth if it is not appropriate for that one's life. I could imagine in some Buddhist countries, maybe, some parents being happy and proud for their child if they have chosen to go forth. In this case it is probably appropriate. However, what do you think about going forth if doing so worried and stressed the mother (even though being financially, and in other aspects secure)? Thanks for your valuable feedback. metta, nori 36643 From: plnao Date: Sun Sep 19, 2004 4:40pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Toll Booth Operators and the Brahmaviharas HI Rob I was very interested to read about your and the toll booth operators. I think about this sort of thing a lot. > Over the past few weeks, I have developed a habit of smiling at toll > booth operators as I pass them. I find this to be a truly effective > way of putting metta into my daily life. The key words here are "developed a habit." I suspect that rather than deciding to smile at toll operators, you became aware one day that it was happening, and that conditioned these mindful moments of smiling. I would say that if someone read your post who had never practiced awareness of brahma-viharas and was impressed by your post and decided to go out and smile at strangers/neutral people in daily life, it wouldn't be the same. I think of the thing i posted recently from "Deeds of merit" in which K Sujin says that the rupa of the tone of voice is a reflection of the citta lying beneath, or words to that effect. I wonder if the same can be said for smiles. The rupa involved in the smile conditioned by citta beneath. Maybe the connection is not so direct. But certainly a smile arising from wholesome citta is different than a smile that is not. Of course one smile is the result of both wholesome and unwholesome cittas that are rising and falling in passing moments. For example, at my job I meet lots of new students in a week. They come and go, as I work for a kind of large chain school where students reserve 40 minute lessons based on their busy schedules. I have many students who are nervous, fatigued or disinterested-looking from the beginning. (Many businessmen are required by their companies to take English lessons whether they want to or not.) There is a lot of ice to break at times. I have become aware of the way a smile can do so much to break the ice, and there are times I take pride in my ability to coax smiles from the dourest of students. It happened the other day, actually. When I met the fellow he looked like a man with a big chip on his shoulder, and within minutes he was smiling. Now, there are both wholesome and unwholesome factors at work here. There is karuna, a concern for his obvious unhappiness at the beginning, and metta wishing him wellbeing. They do arise. But there is also a sense of self-pride at being such a skillful smile inducer. The unwholesome aspect doesn't take away from the wholesome aspect - I used to think it did. Now I understand (in theory at least) that there is kusala and akusala rising and falling all the time, and the idea of having a stretch of undiluted kusala is wrong understanding. In your case, because you have done a lot of work on eradicating defilements that are hindrances to metta, I suspect that metta arises more often in its pure form than it does for me but I'm sure you'll agree that there are akusala cittas at work at times as well. Well, no kidding. >Whether they smile back or not is a function > of their own accumulations and their own kamma and should not impact > my mental state. Using this technique, I foster equanimity. They *always* smile back at me! Keep working on it. (wink) Seriously, this equanimity is so important. As I've posted often enough before, upekkha forms the core of my brahma-viharas contemplations. It is the starting point, tied in with right understanding at the intellectual level of the four noble truths and the three characteristics. BTW, I found a nice line from K Sujin today in the phrases that Sarah compiled (available at zolag) "Panna which performs the function of detachment is the highest meaning of upekkha." I guess what you are talking about above implies detachment from a desire for results from your smiles. > When the toll booth operator smiles back at me, there is sympathetic > joy in their minds which momentarily pushes aside any thoughts of > judgment (of drivers) or boredom. I would have to disagree with this. We can't know the other's cittas. For all you know, there may be conceit and even sexual desire in the other brought on by your smile! Beware!!! That smile of yours could lead to the downfall of the toll booth operator's happy family life! Seriously, of course it's true that the possibility that there will be mudita for the other increases, but I don't think it can be assumed. > Often, the toll booth operators smile back at me. I strive not to be > excited when they do smile back and I strive not to be let down when > they do not smile back. > Sometimes, I imagine the daily work routine of a toll booth operator > is not that pleasant. I have compassion and I hope that my smile > will provide a few moments of pleasure in a generally monotonous day. I really enjoy reading your occasional posts about brahma-viharas, Rob. I sometimes think they are an underappreciated aspect of the Buddha's teaching. > May Dhamma practice be part of your daily life. > > Metta, karuna, mudita and upekkha, > Rob M :-) Back at you! Phil 36644 From: plnao Date: Sun Sep 19, 2004 5:54pm Subject: Deeds of merit - When rendering service can there be dosa? Hello all More from "Deeds of Merit" by Sujin Boriharnwanaket, available at http://www.zolag.co.uk/meri2.html We continue in the area of rendering service (veyyaavaca), one of the deeds of merit that fall under sila. In the following exchange, "W" is Ms. Wandhana. W. : Why are there no lobha, dosa or moha while we intend to help other people, for example, by guiding children across the road? S. : If you only think of yourself, of your own pleasure and convenience, you will certainly not guide children across the road. When you are helping others there are cittas with loving kindness or compassion. There is loving kindness if you wish for the happiness of the person you are helping, and there is compassion if you wish him to be free from suffering [27. While you give assistance to others there cannot be dosa, aversion, annoyance or anger, at the same time, otherwise you would give up helping, you could not accomplish the giving of assistance. ** Ph: "While you give assistance to others there cannot be dosa, aversion, annoyance or anger, at the same time, otherwise you would give up helping, you could not accomplish the giving of assistance." Certainly there can be lobha. We know that we felt a pleasure from doing deeds that is not always wholesome. "I am such a good person!" And it seems to me there can be dosa as well. The irritation we feel when we feel obliged to help someone. For example, when I'm in a train and tired and wanting to nap but offer my seat to a mother (usually) with an infant child. There is irritation, but I do it, and doing it helps someone. There is also wholesome concern for the wellbeing of the mother and child involved. Wholesome and unwholesome cittas in quick succession. There is irritation at times when I teach my English students because some of them have very irritating habits (who doesn't?) but I never fail to teach what needs to be taught, and there is a lot of smiling going on. There are wholesome factors at work when the irritation give way to considerate teaching, but then the irritation arises again, and so on, and so on. But I suppose at those times of irritation there is not veyyaavaca (rendering service) in a way that is a deed of merit. It is not kusala if there is irritation arising. Perhaps there are moments of veyyaavaca based in wholesome citta in between the moments of unwholesome aversion. As I said in a post to Rob M (tollbooth operators) I think it might be wrong understanding to think that there can be stretches of only kusala or only akusala happening in what we perceive to be one continuous action with a certain jati. Before coming across Abhidhamma, I'm sure I would think of deeds as only good, or only bad. It's not so simple, I think now. Metta, Phil 36645 From: Andrew Levin Date: Sun Sep 19, 2004 7:27pm Subject: Re: [dsg] OK, Abhidharma --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > Hi Al, (Howard at the end), > op 18-09-2004 00:15 schreef Andrew Levin op andrewlevin@e...: > > Regarding Chapter four of Nina's 'Abhidharma in Daily Life,' > > Eradication of craving. > ================ > > There is craving in the lobha-mula-cittas. How do we eradicate this > > lobha, this craving. I was told previously that mere recognition of > > the citta can decrease its bearing on the mind. But how are we to > > root out the craving. Is it the same for craving? From my current > > understanding, only when we are seeing things in the present as > > impermanent and selfless will there be no craving present. Please > > correct me if this is not the case. > N: Phil also touched on this point. When kusala citta with daana arises, > there is no craving at that moment. Each kusala citta is accompanied by > alobha, non-attachment. When we reflect on the Dhamma there is no craving. > The person who attains the third stage of enlightenment, the non-retuner has > eradicated clinging to sense objects. All kinds of craving can only be > eradicated by the arahat. He is liberated from the cycle. The links of > ignorance and craving are cut off. I am going to concede this point, it does not seem reasonable that practitioners will have *no* craving just by seeing the impermanence and selflessness of things, perhaps it means something different? That there is no new craving arising, but that deeply entrenched craving has yet to be rooted out - as you pointed out, the non-returning has eradicated craving to sense objects, I'm sure the arahant has eradicated all craving. But this leaves me in a tizzy here because I've read in MN 130, Divine Messengers, that good people in this world, when warned by Divine Messengers, do not dwell in negligence, but practise well the noble dharma, and 'clinging they look upon with fear, for it produces birth and death.' Doesn't this suggest that clinging (and under it, craving) is dealt with at an earlier level, even before attainments, or could the passage just be taken literally that they look upon clinging with fear, until it is all eradicated? Either way, I will bring back the sentiment of my previous post, wherein I feel just sitting here at my computer neglecting work and myself does indeed constitute negligence, and aside from a sitting session of 20 minutes a day, I am still dwelling in negligence, and not one of those who practises well the noble dharma. It is a cause for concern and while I wish to have an understanding, I am willing to put my trust in the author of a very good practise guide that I have and practise dharma as outlined there.. Just a matter of when I can establish myself in some stable meditation for appropriate reflection(s) and practise. > > Wrong view. > ======== > A: Next, is wrong views. This is something that captures my interest. > > The book I am trying to practise out of, a commentary on the > > Maha-satipatthana sutta, states that we need knowledge of Abhidharma > > for the third foundation of mindfulness, that is, contemplation of > > mind. > N: The same is true for the other foundations of mindfulness. I would say, a > basic knowledge of citta, cetasika and rupa is most helpful. > > A: Now I have felt that I could recognize one of these wrong > > views, ditthis, as it arose in me. If I could recognize which citta > > it accompanied, even better (this should happen as I memorize the > > different types of citta). > N: We cannot find out much so long as we do not even know the difference > between nama and rupa, the first stage of tender insight. To cut you off here, I am going to again stress how very important I think right view is. We have two ways of going at it here, well, many ways that I'll divide into two categories: The ways listed by Venerable Sariputta in MN 9, stating that when a disciple understands any of: dependent origination, the sixfold sense-base, contact, the bases of nutriment, or the four noble truths (and some others), he has right view. But in MN 42, the Buddha lists the ten courses of action by body, speech, and mind, that lead to a favorable rebirth. One of them is right view, which he described like this: >He has right view, undistorted vision, thus: 'There is what is given and what is offered and what is sacrificed, and there is fruit and ripening of good and bad kammas, and there is this world and the other world and mother and father and spontaneously (born) beings, and good and virtuous monks and brahmans that have themselves realized by direct knowledge and declared this world and the other world.'< I don't think that any of the vipassana nanas are necessary to have this view, it was to householders after all. Do you propose that we can only come to this view, or at least a partial semblence of it, through the practise of dharma and gaining insight-knowledges? And I do think that the Buddha made it very clear when he said "right view, undistorted vision," that it is plainly seeing reality, not intellectual knowledge. Now, I won't be one to say that you can get this through mere sight, but to me it is clearly just having a straight view of reality as opposed to being nihilistic about the whole thing. I would assert that some aspects of right view can be taken up just by staying present and trying to acquire vision of what really is, that there is mother and father, when you are given a gift that there is something given, and having confidence in monks and nuns who have practised to a high level of realization. Now, I will share an experience I had that you will have to judge for yourself, and take your opinion of me based on what I've said to this group so far, to believe or disbelieve, or form some opinion on. I had been practising vipassana for some weeks in my bedroom and on my back porch at nights after reading Bhante Gunaratana's bestselling 'Mindfulness in Plain English.' At some point, I fell ill, and had to be taken to a psychiatric hospital where I stayed as on an inpatient unit. Although knowing that my meditation was not proper since I had become ill, I figured I could still do some meditation, and take refuge in what I knew. So I was meditating on my bed, meditating a lot, and as a spiritually immature person I would open my eyes to see various things if an occassion for due attention arose. Well, I must have been in just a plain old "good" meditative state of mind, or maybe meditation is just plainly "good," because the Christian man sharing a room with me yelled out something very silly to get my attention and I saw literally an angelic halo around his head with a thin line going back to his body. This man is on his way to heaven, I knew. So that contributes to my right view, that there is a next world, anyway, and has probably influenced me to do good deeds I might not otherwise have done. I guess it's safe to say I have 'mixed' view at this point, leading to both good and bad courses of action. We always hear about in the Pali canon those people who had 'wrong view', reviled the noble ones, and took actions in effect of their wrong views, have reappeared in the bad destination.. hell, etc. And the opposite for beings who held right view and did not revile the noble ones. So this right view is important, it's what motivates us to do actions, even what shapes our courses of action by body, speech, and mind. Know there's a next world, and beings that reappear according to their actions, and you're probably going to go out of your way to do good. Think it's all for naught, say 'Siddartha Sucks' as I've heard it put, and you are probably not going to keep a close watch on your conduct of body, speech, and mind. So it's important that we develop right view, that we *know* in our hearts that these things are true. I don't know how knowledge or vision of spontaneously reappearing beings can come about. Actually I have a few more 'incidents' like the one previously described that I can share if anyone would like to hear, they probably all contribute to my right view. So lastly, I will say, I do not think that vision of the fruit and result of good and bad actions comes as a result of a vipassana nana, but should be undistorted vision, of the actual phenomenon, just as one can have a view that they have a mother and father. So I am still not entirely clear on how talking with monks can settle this out, or what other practise it is that will give us clear vision that there is fruit and result of good and bad actions; there is something to be said for intellectual right view, but it's not a very solid substitute for the real thing, IMO. We need to have a strong grounding in reality to proceed with our spiritual lives. > A: But how am I to know which wrong view it > > is, ie an eternal self wrong view (further, does this eternal self > > wrong view hold that the body is a self, or does it apply to all > > phenomenon?), the annihilation self view, and wrong view about kamma > > and vipaka, thinking purification can come about through rites and > > rituals. Especially the last one, I wouldnt be able to recognize that > > such a wrong view was present in my mind. > N: That is very good. It helps to know that we are inclined to manipulate > sati so long as we are not sotapannas. It also helps to know that this is > not the way. I can't help but feel you didn't answer the question. I do need to recognize wrong views as they are present in my mind, don't I? Or at least when sati does arise, know which they are so I can understand which is present, right? So I don't know how to recognize which wrong view each one is. Why else did you list them in your book Abhidharma in Daily life if not so we can recognize them? > A: ....does absence of wrong view indicate right view is > > present? I wouldn't think so. > N: There are many levels of right view or pañña. There is no wrong view at a > moment of intellectual understanding. But, the latent tendency is there. I'm gonna bite my tongue, so to speak, on this one because I'm not very experienced with the Abhidharma, and you have been writing about it for years or even decades and likely been exchanging your views and knowledge on it for the same term so I will defer to you here. > > A: So how do we go about instilling right > > view in ourselves? > N: So, we have to be careful here. Before we know it, there is an idea of > self who wants to do this.B Ugh this always gets to me. (Don't let this seem like I'm taking my frustration out on you, this is to all people who say 'wrong view of self') Of course I have wrong view of self until I am sotapanna, so aren't I to operate with what I have? That is, the idea "Andrew will do such and such. Andrew will practise this way, Andrew will be mindful of this much rupa" or is it better to speak in terms of "when this arises, we can understand this, and more of this conditions more of that." To acquaint you with the style I've been practising, I've been reading from a commentary to the Maha-Satipatthana sutta, which gives a description of what mindfulness is, and instructs you to be mindful of such an such a phenomenon in your body or mind. And it stresses that a high, even complete level of mindfulness is necessary. This is in accordance with how I learned to practise vipassana in prior times wherein mindfulness is intentionally cultivated by consistent effort. I accept that sati can come and go when conditions are right, but I think, for instance, that I can be intend to be more mindful of the posture of my body and its smaller movements and positionings, or I can meditate in a fashion where I can be heedful of the qualities of my mind. Please let me know what you guys view on this is so we can get some reconciliation going. >But your question is good. As intellectual > understanding grows, there will be less conditions for coarse wrong view, of > the intellectual level. But when there are conditions for direct awareness > and understanding sati and paññaa arise and they are more effective in > wearing out wrong view. Well then , What are the conditions . Can we cultivate them? If not, then we will just have to go with what comes. Personally, I don't know that my intellectual understanding will grow anytime soon-- I have difficulty understanding things in general-- it's just the way I am, I can't read a book and get a thorough understanding of the material. I can follow instructions in a practise guide, though. > > A: For instance, the Buddha has said right view is > > 'undistorted vision' of the existence of this world, the next... There is > > also the wrong view of seeing 'self' in things. The latter type can > > be annihilated through meditation, I believe, but that only works to > > an extent on the former. > N: There are two kinds of meditation or bhaavana: samatha and vipassana. > Only through vipassana wrong view of self can be eradicated. Right but this is only one type of wrong view. Please see above for the others. > > A:.... I have heard it said that we can > > straighten our views by questioning monks and reading good dhamma > > books, but I plainly don't see how this is the case. It seems to me > > it should be experiential, ie, when you give, you should know that > > there is something given, you should know there is mother and father. > N: Straightening our views, a good topic. It is the tenth basis of kusala. > There are many levels again. It can go together with each kind of kusala. > When you speak words of appreciation to your parents with kusala citta, it > is a form of dana. At that moment the citta knows the benefit of kusala. > That is a level of straightening one's views. I will give you this. I was kind to my parents earlier today and I think it gave me the benefit of seeing my views that are in there, right, wrong, or whatever they are! Generosity indeed. Perhaps we can talk about that in another thread. > You wrote to Phil: different moments will > decrease it and hoping that I can do it.> > The noticing will not do it, alas. Actually, I should not say alas, it is a > good thing. It shows us that we are not possessor of the cittas nor of > kusala or akusala. > As Howard said: defilements > are not-self is sufficient for their removal, but rather is *necessary* for > that. It is one requisite condition, because "so long as we take defilements > for self or 'mine' they cannot be eradicated" - that is, so long as they are > taken as personal and intrinsic, removal is blocked.> > We should see defilement as just dhamma, as an impersonal element, arising > because of its own conditions. We can reflect on what we read in the suttas: > the sotapanna has eradicated wrong view, not the other forms of lobha. He > can laugh and cry, has all kinds of emotions. But he does not have coarse > akusala. To me this makes a lot of sense. > Defilements are so stubborn, think of the latent tendencies, they can > condition the arising of akusala citta at anytime. And very sudden and > unexpectedly too. The eradication can only be stage by stage. > Nina. But didn't you say in ADL that when we know the underlying tendencies of dosa or lobha when we get engaged in frivolous talk we can lessen them? Or something to that effect? Are you getting this? Why do I feel like I'm talking to a machine? be happy and peaceful, andrew levin 36646 From: plnao Date: Sun Sep 19, 2004 7:31pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Japanese temples. Hello Nina (and Lodewijk) > Hi Phil, > Lodewijk says Nara is no 1. Also Kyoto all around, and Kamakura. We stayed > for a night in a temple in Koyasan. We liked the simple life there. I talked > to some monks. But it was not easy to talk on Dhamma to monks. They were > always very kind. Ph: Thanks Nina. Nara is my favourite as well. I lived in Osaka for one year about 10 years ago and went to Nara several times a month to walk in the deer park and visit the great Buddha at Todaiji. At that time I didn't have anything resembling a sincere interest in Buddhism, and I was always drinking beer as I wandered. It would be good to go back again but it is so expensive to travel in Japan. The only ordained Buddhist I have met in Japan was a student who described herself as the youngest nun at Soka Gakai. She had a gold sticker that she gave to other students that she said would make them rich. She was a nun decked out in Prada goods and gold. She said she didn't understand why Japanese people had lost their enthusiasm for Buddhism. Somehow I held my tongue. Thanks also for your feedback about dhammapda 1:1 and cittas. Very helpful. Metta, Phil 36647 From: Andrew Levin Date: Sun Sep 19, 2004 7:52pm Subject: Re: Toll Booth Operators and the Brahmaviharas Hi guys, Relatively new Buddhist here. When you develop the Brahma-Viharas, for them to become truly 'divine abidings' do you not have to not only meditate on the feeling, but have it pervade your mind, and even send it out to all four quarters around you? Isn't it then, and only then, a divine abiding? Or at least this is how it is supposed to be developed on the discourse on good will or metta, to expect the elevent described benefits from it. I say this especially because I can think of an evil deed or few the negative karma of which wasn't dissolved by mere 'love' i've had (not to say love isn't a great thing) but i think would be if i really dwelled with an awareness imbued with good will in each direction, as the buddha says a noble disciple abides. like it kind of seems difficult to picture, even for me, and i've done the same thing with harmlessless, that is, sending out thoughts of love and harmlessness in a few directions even over a mile from my house, but if one can get onesself together i would think that it's possible. not only that but you're instructed to maintain it in all four postures and doing whatever you're doing. man good will is great. good will and practising dharma, can't say enough about those two. peace guys, AL --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "plnao" wrote: > > > HI Rob > > I was very interested to read about your and the toll booth operators. I > think about > this sort of thing?a lot. > > > Over the past few weeks, I have developed a habit of smiling at toll > > booth operators as I pass them. I find this to be a truly effective > > way of putting metta into my daily life. > > The key words here are "developed a habit." I suspect that rather than > deciding to smile > at toll operators, you became aware one day that it was happening, and that > conditioned > these mindful moments of smiling. I would say that if someone read your post > who had never practiced > awareness of brahma-viharas and was impressed by your post and decided to go > out and smile > at strangers/neutral people in daily life, it wouldn't be the same. > > I think of the thing i posted recently from "Deeds of merit" in which K > Sujin says that the rupa of the tone of voice > is a reflection of the citta lying beneath, or words to that effect. I > wonder if the same can be said for > smiles. The rupa involved in the smile conditioned by citta beneath. Maybe > the connection is not so direct. > But certainly a smile arising from wholesome citta is different than a smile > that is not. > > Of course one smile is the result of both wholesome and unwholesome cittas > that are rising and falling in > passing moments. > For example, at my job I meet lots of new students in a week. They come > and go, as I work for a kind of large > chain school where students reserve 40 minute lessons based on their busy > schedules. I have many students who > are nervous, fatigued or disinterested-looking from the beginning. (Many > businessmen are required by their companies to take English lessons > whether they want to or not.) There is a lot of ice to break at times. I > have become aware of the way a smile can do so much > to break the ice, and there are times I take pride in my ability to coax > smiles from the dourest of students. It happened > the other day, actually. When I met the fellow he looked like a man with a > big chip on his shoulder, and within minutes he > was smiling. Now, there are both wholesome and unwholesome factors at work > here. There is karuna, a concern for his obvious unhappiness at the > beginning, and metta wishing him wellbeing. They do arise. But there is also > a sense of self-pride at being such a skillful smile inducer. The > unwholesome aspect > doesn't take away from the wholesome aspect - I used to think it did. Now I > understand (in theory at least) that there is kusala and akusala rising and > falling all the time, and the idea of having a stretch of undiluted kusala > is wrong understanding. > > In your case, because you have done a lot of work on eradicating > defilements that are hindrances to metta, I suspect that metta arises more > often in its pure form than it does for me but I'm sure you'll agree that > there are akusala cittas at work at times as well. Well, no kidding. > > >Whether they smile back or not is a function > > of their own accumulations and their own kamma and should not impact > > my mental state. Using this technique, I foster equanimity. > > They *always* smile back at me! Keep working on it. (wink) > > Seriously, this equanimity is so important. As I've posted > often enough before, upekkha forms the core of my > brahma-viharas contemplations. It is the starting point, tied in > with right understanding at the intellectual level of the four noble truths > and the three characteristics. > BTW, I found a nice line from K Sujin today in the phrases that Sarah > compiled (available at zolag) "Panna which performs the function of > detachment > is the highest meaning of upekkha." I guess what you are talking about > above > implies detachment from a desire for results from your smiles. > > > > When the toll booth operator smiles back at me, there is sympathetic > > joy in their minds which momentarily pushes aside any thoughts of > > judgment (of drivers) or boredom. > > I would have to disagree with this. We can't know the other's cittas. For > all > you know, there may be conceit and even sexual desire in the other brought > on by your > smile! Beware!!! That smile of yours could lead to the downfall of the toll > booth operator's > happy family life! > Seriously, of course it's true that the possibility that there will be > mudita for the > other increases, > but I don't think it can be assumed. > > > > Often, the toll booth operators smile back at me. I strive not to be > > excited when they do smile back and I strive not to be let down when > > they do not smile back. > Sometimes, I imagine the daily work routine of a > toll booth operator > > is not that pleasant. I have compassion and I hope that my smile > > will provide a few moments of pleasure in a generally monotonous day. > > I really enjoy reading your occasional posts about brahma-viharas, Rob. I > sometimes think > they are an underappreciated aspect of the Buddha's teaching. > > > May Dhamma practice be part of your daily life. > > > > Metta, karuna, mudita and upekkha, > > Rob M :-) > > > Back at you! > > Phil 36648 From: plnao Date: Sun Sep 19, 2004 8:16pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Toll Booth Operators and the Brahmaviharas Hi Andrew > When you develop the Brahma-Viharas, for them to become truly 'divine > abidings' do you not have to not only meditate on the feeling, but > have it pervade your mind, and even send it out to all four quarters > around you? Isn't it then, and only then, a divine abiding? Or at > least this is how it is supposed to be developed on the discourse on > good will or metta, to expect the elevent described benefits from it. Ph: I practiced in the above way for about a year until I realized (get ready for it!) that in fact it was a self-pleasing exercise that I was using to make the world a more pleasant place to be in. I think the descriptions in the suttas of pervading in all directions are for those who have eradicated (get ready for another UGH!) wrong view of self. I don't say this because I am just reapeating what I've learned from other people. It was from insight into my own experience. The brahma-viharas are wonderful, but I think they are often used in an overly-intentional way that strengthens self view. A comforting way. Now, that's not a bad place to start, but at a certain point I think understanding grows that metta and karuna and the others arise or don't arise in a conditioned way. This is just this beginner's view (and experience.) I feel metta et al are far more variable when they are appreciated as anatta and annica. I really don't understand how one can decide to sit down and pervade metta in all directions without self at the centre of things. On the other hand, when metta arises suddenly during a busy day, there is a great sense of well-being and gratitude to the Buddha for teaching anatta, which is really where our liberation lies, not in any self-directed activities. It seems Rob M has a more intentional approach to brahma-viharas, and obviously you should be listening to him with more attention than to me. > I say this especially because I can think of an evil deed or few the > negative karma of which wasn't dissolved by mere 'love' i've had (not > to say love isn't a great thing) Ph: "Love" is so loaded with cultural associations. I think of metta as friendliness. I feel it arising naturally when barriers are down thanks to a certain degree of right understanding. If that person is -in the absolute sense- an aggregate of rupa and nama (and I have had insight into that, as described in that other post) what is stopping me from being friendly? Where is the barrier? If that person is yanked around by wrong view the same way I am, we are in the same boat, and friendliness arises. but i think would be if i really > dwelled with an awareness imbued with good will in each direction, as > the buddha says a noble disciple abides. like it kind of seems > difficult to picture, even for me, and i've done the same thing with > harmlessless, that is, sending out thoughts of love and harmlessness > in a few directions even over a mile from my house, but if one can get > onesself together i would think that it's possible. not only that but > you're instructed to maintain it in all four postures and doing > whatever you're doing. Ph: Above I said that I now doubted this practice, but your description brings back how wonderful it was while I was doing it. I would go out from my house too, in the nieghbourhood, all around Japan, all around the world, and then the world would become a glowing seed in the Buddha's hand. I do believe visualization is valuable and healing. I remember one day I hurried out to work after doing this, and a man walking towards me smiled and nodded. And then I realized I was smiling without knowing it. That metta session had conditioned this smile to arise without my knowing it, and the man responded to it. (It's very rare in urban or suburban areas of Japan for strangers to greet each other) It was great. And yet, as I said above, I came to see that what I was doing was trying to pain the world in metta. I was trying to avoid unpleasant mental states. I would go for walks in the local park and kind of beam metta around me. I just can't see that being right practice. Later, when better understanding (in my opinion) arose, I would go for walks, and be aware of aversion arising, say because of a man spitting, and then metta for this and mudita for that and more metta and karuna and a lot of indifferent stretches in between. Aware of these moments coming and going in an unconntrolled way. And this helps me to cultivate wisdom that will eradicate hindrances, starting with the coarse ones, and this will allow metta to flow more freely without the need to generate it at home. That's just my take. Metta, Phil p.s I always sign of with "metta" but it's just a habit. There may or may not be metta involved. Usually when I send a post there's a lot of self-pleasure at the way I am putting things, or restlessness, or other unwholesome factors. And sometimes metta. AH! I just felt metta! Time to push the send button! fast! 36649 From: Date: Sun Sep 19, 2004 4:51pm Subject: Re: [dsg] To support or abandon your parents (child, relatives)? - Sutta-Nipâta Hi, Nori - In a message dated 9/19/04 6:58:48 PM Eastern Daylight Time, nori_public@a... writes: > However, what do you think about going forth if doing so worried and > stressed the mother (even though being financially, and in other > aspects secure)? ====================== At least in the Theravada tradition, as far as I know, one *may not* go forth without parental approval. (And I mean for adults too!) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 36650 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Sep 19, 2004 8:54pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: the age of wisdom Dear Connie, Thank you, I remember now. Thank you for the reminders. Not my understanding. And a sense of urgency, Nina. op 19-09-2004 17:43 schreef connieparker op connieparker@i...: > > Parts of Bangkok visit me! I had just mentioned 'the age of wisdom' to a > friend in passing, thinking how lucky I am to have found such dhamma > friends. Still, no 'my understanding' and only what little may arise to > slowly accumulate as long as it is supported by material conditions > growing old even as they arise, so a sense of urgency even if I am > immature enough to hope there is still time. ;) > > As a friend said of parents, they are like our personal arahants. Even in > repaying them, because they are such great fields of merit, our debt > increases. 36651 From: plnao Date: Sun Sep 19, 2004 10:12pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Toll Booth Operators and the Brahmaviharas Hello again Andrew, and all Banged that last message off before running out on an errand. Would have been better to leave it until I got back, but this topic really interests me and there was no resisting. A bit of a refinement on what I wrote before: I think the descriptions in the suttas of > pervading in all > directions are for those who have eradicated (get ready for another UGH!) > wrong > view of self. Ph: Not eradicated, of course. That would mean sotapanna. Perhaps eradicated or at least loosening of the roots of some coarse defilements? I'm not sure. It's just that I sense that some of the meditation practices described in the suttas are not for everyone - not yet. I think of the precepts. We usually take them as prohibitions from the Buddha, but I feel they represent a description of the way enlightened people behave. And thus this "pervading in all directions" is for me a description of an enlightened person rather than a prescription for an intentional activity. Of course I realize that anyone who read the sutta for the first time would see it as a prescription. Just not for me, yet. I am too heavily wrapped in self to do meditation now without it being an exercise in self-pleasure and the desire of self to get something out of it that would qualify me as a talented Buddhist. But in some lifetime - maybe this one - conditions will arise for me to meditate without self being at the center of it. Re "abides" - the brahma-viharas are described as divine abides. I take this to mean that we will come to abide in them as we eradicate defilements. It's not like we move in and will our new home into taking shape around us. Gradually we move in without even being aware that it's happening. Very gradually. The barriers caused by hindrances, defilements fall away, and we come to abide in metta, karuna, mudita and upekkha in line with our progress along the path. The abiding arises. We can't move in until we are moved in by conditions. That's my feeling about it these days. I think the arising of these abides is a very wonderful thing and along with the paramis (Perfections), they answer the question "What's the Buddha like?" Also it has to be noted, as someone will, that the brahma-viharas are usually treated in the context of jhanas, so the pervading in all directions that is mentioned in those suttas is probably referring to something to be done in jhanas. But then again, maybe not - there is no mention of jhanas in the portion of the Kalama Sutta that is devoted to brahma-viharas. A few typos in my last post, as usual: "Paint" the world in metta, not "pain the world." Metta and karuna are more valuable when they arise on their own, not "variable." (though that is true, come to think of it. More insight through typos.) Metta, Phil ----- Original Message ----- From: "plnao" To: Sent: Monday, September 20, 2004 12:16 PM Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Toll Booth Operators and the Brahmaviharas > > Hi Andrew > > > > When you develop the Brahma-Viharas, for them to become truly 'divine > > abidings' do you not have to not only meditate on the feeling, but > > have it pervade your mind, and even send it out to all four quarters > > around you? Isn't it then, and only then, a divine abiding? Or at > > least this is how it is supposed to be developed on the discourse on > > good will or metta, to expect the elevent described benefits from it. > > Ph: I practiced in the above way for about a year until I realized (get > ready for it!) > that in fact it was a self-pleasing exercise that I was using to make the > world a > more pleasant place to be in. I don't say this because I am just reapeating what I've > learned from other > people. It was from insight into my own experience. 36653 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Sep 19, 2004 11:59pm Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner15-Contact /Phassa(a) Dear Friends, Cetasikas by Nina van Gorkom. http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== ***** Part I The Universals Chapter I Contact (phassa) ******* A citta cannot arise alone, it has to be accompanied by cetasikas. When there is seeing, citta cognizes visible object and the cetasikas which accompany the citta also experience visible object. The citta is the "leader", while the cetasikas which share the same object perform each their own task. The cetasikas have each their own characteristic (lakkhanam: specific or generic attribute) function (rasa: function or achievement), manifestation (paccupat-thana: manifestation, appearance or effect) and proximate cause (padatthanam) (Expositor I, Part II, Chapter I, 65). There are many conditions for the different phenomena which appear, but the "proximate cause" or immediate occasion is mentioned in particular when the cetasikas are defined in the commentaries, the Atthasalini (The Expositor) and the Visuddhimagga. There are seven cetasikas which have to arise with every citta; they are called the "universals" (sabbacitta-sadharana). Some cittas are accompanied only by the universals, others are accompanied by several more cetasikas in addition. Thus, every citta is accompanied by at least the seven universals. ***** [Contact (Phassa) to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 36654 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Sep 20, 2004 0:09am Subject: Re: [dsg] ‘Cetasikas' study corner15-Contact /Phassa(a) Hi RobK & Nina, I just reposted the first segment for Phassa because after posting it I found a an error copied from the version on the website which could be rather misleading. It has a line referring to '12 cetasikas' after The Universals below, obviously not correct and not in the book. For those who get the messages in their in boxes, pls ignore the first one. S. --- sarah abbott wrote: > > Part I > The Universals > > Chapter I > Contact (phassa) > ******* 36655 From: plnao Date: Mon Sep 20, 2004 0:14am Subject: Re: [dsg] 'Cetasikas' study corner15-Contact /Phassa(a) Hello all >. The cetasikas have each their own characteristic > (lakkhanam: specific or generic attribute) function (rasa: function or > achievement), manifestation (paccupat-thana: manifestation, appearance or > effect) and proximate cause (padatthanam) (Expositor I, Part II, Chapter > I, 65). On this point, here is an exchange from a recent post that might be helpful: (Ken H)> > I can understand that, but I didn't realize dhammas could be known > > only by their characteristics. Just to clarify: Are their > > functions, manifestations and proximate causes never directly > > experienced? > N: Take seeing. Its function is seeing, dassana kicca. It can be directly > experienced, but no need to think of function or manifestation. These are > merely taught to help us to have more understanding of seeing. It is a good > foundation of pariyatti to study these things. Metta, Phil 36656 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Sep 20, 2004 0:24am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: CSC 4-[Sarah: "citta is..."] Hi Dan, Sorry - I've got behind with reading and replies... --- "Dan D." wrote: > > Dear Sarah, > I don't follow you when you write: "many kinds of right view/right > understanding (see Vism,beg ch X1V), not just satipatthana, but > you're right about mundane and supramundane rt und. in MN117." > > What I see in the beginning of vism XIV is: "Understanding (pañña) is > of many sorts and has various aspects. An answer that attempted to > explain it all would accomplish neither its intention nor its > purpose, and would, besides, lead to distraction; so we whall confine > ourselves to the kind intended here, which is understanding > consisting insight knowledge associated with profitable > consciousness." There is no indication how the other kinds would > consititute "Right view". In particular, I don't see how the > beginning of pages of Vism. XIV support any notion of a "conceptual > right view." Am I missing something? ... S: "Understanding (pañña) is of many sorts and has various aspects" - eg in samatha development. Concepts as object such as the qualities of the Buddha or the Dhamma or any of the other objects. But in this section of the Vism, it is just understanding (insight) of vipassana which is being discussed. Remember, panna accompanies all moments of bhavana (samatha and vipassana). My point was that in MN117, like in Vism under 'Understanding', it is insight (vipassana)- mundane and supramundane which is being referred to as you rightly stressed. Let me know if this doesn't answer your qu clearly enough or if I've misunderstood you. Metta, Sarah ====== 36657 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Sep 20, 2004 0:42am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner13-Introduction(j) Hi Azita, I always enjoy your posts. --- gazita2002 wrote: > > Cetasikas by Nina van Gorkom. > > > ......... > The realities of our life, including out > > defilements, should be understood as not self. So long as we take > > defilements for self or "mine" they cannot be eradicated. The direct > > understanding of realities as non-self is the condition for not > doing > > evil, for cultivating the good and for purifying one's mind. > > ***** > > A:> How does this direct understanding become a condition for 'us' > to do no evil, etc? .... S: I understand that while there’s clinging to the idea of self, there’s no development of detachment. So along with the lessening of the grip of sakkaya-ditthi (self-view) is the development of understanding with detachment from any conditioned dhammas appearing. This is the way they are seen more clearly for what they are --the value of kusala and the danger of akusala included. Whilst we cling to ‘my kindness’ and so on or ‘my defilements’ which are so bad and so on, no detachment or wisdom which can really see them for what they are - conditioned, impermanent dhammas of no lasting importance, not belonging to anyone. Also as Matt stressed (and you rightly encouraged), not just kusala and akusala but any realities appearing have to be understood in order for views of people and things to be eradicated. .... A:> It sort of makes sense to me, but as there are still defilements > _surely there are still the conditions for them to arise, and do > evil? no? > Maybe the evil performed is a lesser degree than if no > understanding. Maybe I've answered my own question!!! .... S: Right. Without wrong view, they cannot be as strong and insight arises in between. As we know, many kinds of evil can no longer be performed by a sotapanna for this reason. .... > Patience, courage and good cheer, >... ;-) ... Metta, Sarah p.s thanks for repeating the drops of water through the thin sheets of paper helpful analogy for the ‘not so classifiable object’. Just a very small point, after a sense door process, she specified it was ‘reality by way of not so classifiable object’, not a concept. In other cases, it is a ‘concept by way of not so classifiable object’. ========================= 36658 From: robmoult Date: Mon Sep 20, 2004 0:43am Subject: [dsg] Re: 21 questions...[Herman: "how you will see..."] Hi Dan, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Dan D." wrote: > Short version: Akusala-vipaka cittas result from akusala cittas. The > akusala-vipaka is morally neutral, i.e. it is not rooted in > lobha/dosa/moha, but it IS a result of morally corrupt cittas. Let's > not take the discussion as far as the javana cittas because I think > we can agree that: 1. the sensation of pain arises prior to the > javanas, and 2. pain frequently gives rise to dosa but it is not > necessary for it to in all cases. > > Is it wrong to say "akusalavipaka cittas result from akusala cittas"? > ===== A real minor point is that I would say that akusala vipaka cittas result from past akusala javana cittas; only javana cittas can create kamma. ===== > Does this differ from "the pain from the tree falling on your leg is > a result of your bad kamma" in an essential way? > [Certainly, kamma does not cause a tree to fall, but that is not a > part of my sentence.] ===== The tree fell because conditions supported this falling (i.e. the roots gave way, there was a wind, etc. but nothing to do with kamma). Now to get technical... There was a tactile object (earth rupa) which arose together with body sensitivity (rupa) when "the tree" (tree is a concept) hit "the leg" (leg is a concept). To paraphrase the Honeyball Sutta (MN18), "Dependent on [body sensitivity] and [tactile object], [body] consciousness arises. The meeting of the three is contact. With contact as a condition there is feeling." There are two types of body consciousness; one is called "akusala vipaka" and the other is "kusala vipaka". Which body consciousness will arise? It depends on the intrinsic nature of the tactile object. If this rupa is inherently undesireable (anittha), then this is a condition for an akusala vipaka body consciousness to arise (note that this citta always arises with painful bodily feeling). In other words, the painful bodily feeling arose because an intrinsically undesireable rupa (the tactile object) arose together with body sensitivity (another rupa). This feeling arose as part of a vipaka citta which carries the label "akusala". When the body consciousness citta accompanied by painful bodily feeling falls away, this is a condition for a new citta arise; a receiving citta accompanied by neutral mental feeling. The receiving citta accompanied by neutral mental feeling is followed by an investigating citta with neutral mental feeling. The falling away of the investigating citta is a condition for the arising of a determining citta with neutral mental feeling. The falling away of the determining citta with neutral mental feeling is a condition for the arising of a javana citta. But which javana citta will arise? This depends on our accumulations. For uninstructed worldlings (that's us), our accumulations are such that a dosa-mula javana citta will almost certainly arise. All dosa-mula cittas arise with unpleasant mental feeling. The sense-door citta process comes to an end and it is then followed by hundreds of thousands of mind-door citta processes that "name", "think about" and "mentally proliferate" (see Honeyball Sutta). In the case of the tree and the leg, most of the javana cittas part of these mind-door processes will be dosa-mula with unpleasant mental feeling. In other words, the painful bodily feeling is over in the duration of a single citta and it is followed by a few cittas accompanied by neutral mental feeling and then by an unbelieveably huge number of cittas accompanied by unpleasant mental feeling. Clearly, pain is almost all in the mind! Now what would happen if a tree were to fall on the leg of an Anagami or an Arahant? There would still be painful bodily feeling during the body consciousness citta. The following receiving, investigating and determining cittas will be with neutral mental feeling (same as for us). However, Anagamis and Arahants no longer has the accumulations to support the arising of dosa so there will be no dosa-mula cittas with unpleasant mental feeling. ===== > > Slightly longer version: I see in your discussion that you identify > the sensation of pain as a rupa. If true, then pain would belong to > the nevavipaakanavipaakadhammadhammaa -- the dhammaa that are neither > resultant nor cause resultants, viz. Nibbana and corporeality > (sabbañca ruupaa.m) [vipaka triplet in Dhs. (Matika §3, Dhs §993 (in > CSCD or the U Kyaw Khine translation, or §989 in the Rhys Davids > translation)]. That would mean that kamma surely doesn't cause a tree > to fall and that pain arising from a tree falling does not result > from bad kamma. But is that what you are saying? ===== I think that I have answered your question in my technical analysis above. Please let me know if I have not. ===== > > I have always have thought of pain as vedana, a nama. "Pain" is the > name we give to the sensation arising from certain anittha rupas. As > such, it would not fall under the nevavipaakanavipaakadhammadhammaa, > but, rather, the vipaka -- "Dhamma which are the results of wholesome > or unwholesome dhamma... (Dhs §991 [cscd])." Here, the akusala dhamma > does not cause the tree to fall, but it does serve as cause for the > pain. Which particular akusala kamma(s)? Impossible to tell, but we > can be sure that it was akusala kamma. For me, this is strictly > theory because I have experienced a lot of pain for which I can see > no connection to akusala kamma, and my understanding of the nature of > pain is not so deep that I can say with conviction anything along the > lines of "all pain is caused by ripening of akusala kamma." > > Easier to say would be the following: Kamma keeps this "being" going > in this sphere of existence; beings that keep going in this sphere of > existence may experience pain; pain is therefore a natural result > (albeit apparently indirect) of kamma; beings in this realm all have > bad past kamma; a life rife with good kamma may result in rebirth in > a realm where there is no pain; therefore, pain is not only a result > of kamma, it is a result of *bad* kamma in particular. However, this > seems indirect, convoluted, speculative, contrived, etc. To say I'm > not committed to this formulation is an understatement. Is there a > good way to talk about pain as akusalavipaka without being so > indirect, convoluted, speculative, contrived? > ===== Is my technical analysis above any less indirect, convoluted, speculative or contrived? :-) Metta, Rob M :-) 36659 From: Sukinderpal Singh Narula Date: Mon Sep 20, 2004 0:48am Subject: Theory and Practice - Eric Re: Anapanasati/ Sukin Hi Eric, You said: > Sukin, please, I am saying it is both. Study and > practice. I am not saying that contemplation is > not needed or secondary for that matter. But when > push comes to shove, you are going to have to leave > all of this theorizing behind. Either you will > intend to do it via meditation or death will force you! Sukin: I know this, but I got carried away trying to prove my point. But still, I think we may have a different understanding as to what `study' as in pariyatti is, and what it means to `practice', which in dhamma is patipatti. I will go a bit into this later on in this post. ----------------------------------------------------- > S: However now when I read what they have said, I have no > reason to think that they were so, in fact, I consider some of them > quite misguided even. So yes, in those cases where the claim comes > from an unreliable source, I would surely hesitate. > > E: Ok let me ask you in this way. Would you listen to or be > interested in the Buddha before his enlightenment? If you > had the chance to talk with him while he was a mere > Bodhisatta, would you? Sukin: I prefer to avoid considering the dhamma in this way. It is already hard enough not to think it in terms of `people and situations', and `self' being always in the center. But dhamma is about the present arisen reality and it is so rare that I remember this. There is no control over what one will hear and whether right or wrong understanding will follow. Anyway, with regard to the above, firstly I think the Bodhisatta was the most admirable of persons with the exception of when he became the Buddha. Even without Right View, he was greater than the greatest of his disciples. Since this is only an imaginary situation, let's imagine further that someone with such qualities was present `while' there already was the Sasana. Also imagine that Sukin had a degree of Rt. View and he was studying under a certain teacher who may or may not be enlightened, but who taught the Dhamma as existing in the Tipitaka now. Also imagine that Sukin is perceptive enough to identify and appreciate the great qualities of the Bodhisatta. Between the Bodhisatta and this teacher, who would Sukin study under? The Dhamma teacher. The Bodhisatta may be a great inspiration, but what could I learn from him about getting out of samsara? ----------------------------------------------------- > S> People may be able to enter Samadhi in an instant and experience > fascinating states of mind. Some might talk with seemingly great > authority about levels of consciousness and create elaborate > theories about human experience and nature of reality. For me the > test as to whether that person is really wise is in how much > importance he gives to presently arising realities. > > E: This is for each to know and no descriptive signifier > will allow another to realize the present arising realities no > matter how much the benevolent intent. Sukin: One person cannot make another enlightened. But if the conditions are there, he will speak with wisdom and if his audience has the right accumulations, wisdom can arise in him too. But if someone has never heard the Dhamma (except for Buddhas), then this kind of wisdom can never arise. It *must* start with a conceptual description; this happened even in the case of Sariputta. And if a person does understand dhamma, lack of words to describe the experience is no excuse. ------------------------------------------- > S> The Four Noble Truths, if a teaching is consistent with this, then > it would qualify as Right View, otherwise not. Which is another way > of saying that only the Buddha and his followers were/can be > enlightened. > > E: I dont agree. The 4NT's were discovered by the Buddha > not invented by him. Sukin: We are talking about the way things are, which is independent of anyone's observation and opinion. So yes the Buddha did not invent the 4NT. But I hesitate to say that he discovered it, since this makes it too easy and does give an impression that the 4NT is out there to be discovered. But only very great `insight' can glimpse the 4NT via developed understanding of the conditioned nature of realities, particularly a firm understanding of anatta. Do you know anyone else who teaches anatta? ------------------------------------------------------- > S> It seems odd that people, including monks, have meditated (in some > cases on the breath) for 20, 30 or 40 years and all they can talk > about at the end of it, is `calm', `happiness', `peace' and so on. > And when they advice anyone on `understanding' dhamma, they point to > the `formal practice'. > > E: Maybe they are just pointing you in a direction > that they know you will eventually realize the present > arisen dhammas. What was the Buddha doing on the eve > of his Enlightenment? He was doing a formal practice > of meditation which he taught as Anapanasati. Sukin: `Formal', according to whom? Did someone teach him this? What he became enlightened to was what *all* practices did not lead him to. When other teachers `point' you to a direction, why is it away from the moment? And "who" does "what"?! If there is not understanding of what is going on, is this the `cause' leading to the correct `result'? Is this encouraging of blind faith and the following of rites and rituals? ----------------------------------------------------- >E: Sukin, please, I am saying it is both. Study and > practice. I am not saying that contemplation is > not needed or secondary for that matter. But when > push comes to shove, you are going to have to leave > all of this theorizing behind. Either you will > intend to do it via meditation or death will force you! Sukin; Yes theorizing is an annoying habit, but I don't believe in it. But there is no control over what will arise as long as conditions for wrong view and other akusala are still present. The concept of `meditation' as I see it can in fact be a product of such theorizing. When there is any panna arising in the moment, there is no idea about what to "do", because panna, unlike lobha, detaches. Pariyatti as often expressed here, is panna, though of the very basic level. It is the correct understanding in terms of conceptual description, of what is happening NOW. To know that what one understands about the moment is `conceptual' and that it is conditioned is already panna at work. To want something more is the work of `lobha' or else a misunderstanding of the Teachings. Also not knowing that pariyatti is *not* about words but a level of understanding, one may reason that one must leave all this behind and directly `look', meditate. But this is wrong understanding of the moment, conceptually, and instead believing in a concept of `doing something', where a `self' is projected into a future state. One starts with self view and ends up feeding it further with any consequent illusion of result. No one can decide to leave any `theory' behind. Practice as in patipatti, just knows a reality, and if that be `thinking', then naturally there is detachment. But the same applies to any reality, even jhana cittas must be seen with satipatthana. I think the idea that one can and must decide to do away with theory, is a misunderstanding not only of the significance of the relationship between pariyatti, patipatti and pativedha, but also from *not* knowing the moment and having instead only a wrong view of it. Regarding urgency at the time of death, I don't know what I will do, maybe out of `fear' I might think about meditation. :-( But this would be due to self-attachment and lack of confidence. -------------------------------------------------- > > S> I am not saying that direct experience should not be taken into > consideration, if the experience is indeed consistent with the > Teachings, then there is no need to refer to it in retrospect in > order to condition Saddha. > > E: Yes but the raft is not made of books! Why dont > you see this? And where the raft meets the water, > that has nothing to do with books! Now the books > may have helped to build the raft but surely they > must be left behind on the other shore. Sukin: When there is pariyatti, maybe this can be compared to the raft and when patipatti, one is touching the other shore. But each time there is any correct understanding of pariyatti as pariyatti and patipatti as patipatti, then there is no attachment to the raft, but no illusion about being on the other shore either. But to think that one can just decide to let go of the raft and `do' something, and this is `being' on the other shore, may be a case of not even know raft for raft and still being on this shore but thinking otherwise. ------------------------------------------------------ > S> Meditators like to refer to the practice when advising others, but > if indeed there was genuine satipatthana, one will know at the same > time that it has arisen due to causes and conditions unrelated to > any intention to have it. This is I believe why some members of DSG > don't like to talk about their subjective experiences ;-). What is > there after all to talk about when the moments of sati are so rare > and of little strength and these are not tied to any particular > conventional activity!? > > E: Tis a shame in my eyes. All this book knowledge and > a fatalistic attitude of doing nothing is better than > doing something. The Buddhas teaching was a doctrine > of action not inaction! I guess it has followed the way > of the west. Only things described in books matter and > are considered important. Sukin: There is always some dhamma performing its function. In spite of this, some will still behave in a way that a `self' can exercise influence in terms of gaining better understanding. But isn't this a contradiction? If there is no understanding about non-self with regard to the dhammas arising now, how can this lead to any such understanding at the end of the road? But I agree with you that what is described in the books is not important as compared to the experience of the realities which any Right book will refer to. ;-) ------------------------------------------------- > S> You seem to object to `theory', but do you really believe we can > get away from any theory? I think we start with some kind of > conclusion, dwell on them and reinforce them all the time. And if we > have had any experiences and do not check if this is consistent with > the Buddha's teachings, then I believe that it becomes increasingly > hard to get on the right track. > > Again, I am not objecting to theory! But it just > has lost its taste in my mouth. I want the fruit > and no longer pale anemic descriptions of it! Sukin: I think you need to reexamine your understanding of what pariyatti means. Metta, Sukin. Ps: Just FYI, I almost never enjoy reading, have aversion for technical language, can't seem to retain anything read, and do not even bother to try to remember. And 98% of my books have never been read. Very odd accumulations, I know. :-( 36660 From: robmoult Date: Mon Sep 20, 2004 0:54am Subject: Re: Natural Decisive Support Condition (pakatupanissaya) Hi Dan, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Dan D." wrote: > Thinking about vipaka in terms of natural decisive support condition > seems to be very helpful. > > My synopsis of what you wrote: It is natural decisive support > condition that "pushes" the sensation of pain into the consciousness. > When a tree falls on a leg, pain (akusalavipaka) only becomes a > reality when the attention is adverted to the sensations. Without > having first developed the habit of adverting the attention to pain, > decisive support condition would not be there, consciousness would > not be adverted to the unpleasant sensations, and pain would not > arise. When natural decisive support for pain is present, attention > is adverted, and pain is felt. "Natural decisive support for pain" is > developed via akusala kamma (and concept and prior practice with > experience of pain). ===== Pretty good description. My last post goes through this in a bit more detail. Metta, Rob M :-) 36661 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Sep 20, 2004 1:41am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: "... as parasites a tree." ??? Hi Dighanakha. --- dighanakha wrote: > Or are you asking if it's true that the Buddha had special > insight into the character of women, as claimed above? My belief > is that he did. And I would expect anything that he said about > women based upon this knowledge to be the truth. But in the > Kunala Jataka there is a flood of wild generalizations about > women that can easily be checked and shown to be false by > observation of the lives and behaviour of actual women. .... S: I think the point that is stressed again and again in the texts is that our observations ‘of the lives and behaviour’ of ‘actaul women’ or men for that matter is incredibly superficial and with just a little understanding we get to see how very little is known of even our own ‘lives and behaviour’, let alone latent tendencies and potential, from moment to moment. Again, I think the qu from ‘The Questions of King Milinda’, 42 ‘Women’s Whiles’, addresses this point very clearly as does the story about Vedehika and her maid, Kali in MN 21. Our behaviour may seem reasonably fine if we’re not sufficiently provoked as Vedika was or for any number of other reasons but whilst I read these texts, including the Jataka, I personally find it helpful to reflect on the danger of ‘my’ defilements. Really, much of the time I don’t even pass small ‘tests’ in daily life very well, so just how would we or I pass really big ‘tests’? .... > Therefore, if it is true that the Buddha spoke only the truth, > and true that he had special insight into women, then the Kunala > Jataka cannot be his teaching. .... S: Like Matt stressed so well, Matt: >Whether women corrupted the sasana or not does not change what reality is arising and inpinging on the sense door right now. Whether the Buddha held those views or not, whether the Jataka Tales are true or fiction, whether the Teaching will last 500 or 5,000 years does not change what reality is arising and impinging on the sense door right now. >In the citta moment that arises right now there is no Jataka Tales, no women, nomen, no Bhikhunis, no sexist views and no self; male or female.< **** S: In other words, the practice still comes back to the present moment and the understanding of present dhammas. It doesn’t mean these are not valid or worthwhile questions, but when we are concerned about any issues which are likely to just lead to more doubts and speculation (talking animals is another favourite or the origins of the Abhidhamma or even details that are beyond our ability to understand), I believe the pariyatti and patipatti (if there is any development of satipatthana) is the knowing of the present thinking and doubt at such times or the frustration, conceit, seeing or visible object or other realities appearing. ..... > On the other hand, if we are going to base our reasoning on the > dsg fundamentalist assumption that the Kunala Jataka WAS spoken > by the Buddha (because its Mahavihara translator said so), then > we shall have to conclude either that the Buddha did not always > speak the truth, or that he did not have even the most > rudimentary everyday understanding of women, let alone special > insight into them. .... S: Or that our own insight is too limited to comprehend and therefore we may need to leave it aside for the time being. .... > But both of these possibilities are contradicted in the Nikayas. > Women's nature would have been known to the Buddha through the > sixth of the ten powers of a Tathagata. And being an arahant, he > would have spoken only what is factual. .... S: Yes. .... > And so my verdict is that the Buddha is not guilty of teaching > the Kunala Jataka. .... S: I understand your concerns, but I reserve judgment or rather, have no reason to reject it as I'm not convinced by your arguments to date. The summary I gave was from the Dict of PP Names. I understand you find it misleading, but I thought it was quite reasonable. .... S: Something which is very puzzling to me, however, is the following: .... > Something else I would draw your attention to (though it is less > probative than the above) is that the Kunala depicts the > Bodhisatta as lying. He lies three times when he is seducing the > white-robed nun Saccatapavi. But in other commentaries (I think > in the Buddhavamsa or the Cariyapitaka Comm) it is stated that a > Bodhisatta never violates the fourth precept. He might break the > others, but never the fourth. .... S: Yes. I read the text for this and also had a quick look at the Pali for the relevant lines and you seem to be right. I’ve also read/heard the same as you about the *third* precept as the exception and I have no explanation here(!!). Something for me to put aside until I hear any explanation for it. I can’t understand why it hasn’t been picked up and discussed by other commentaries. (For others without access to the Jatakas,but following this thread, I’ll put the Dict of PPN summary of the story at the end of this message). I’ll be glad if any Pali experts take a look too. Metta, Sarah ====== ***** Saccatapáví A white robed nun (setasamaní) who lived in a hut in a cemetery near Benares and abstained from four out of every five meals She was held in high esteem. On a certain festival day, some goldsmiths were seated in a tent making merry. One of them, becoming sick through drink, vomited, saying: “Praise be to Saccatapáví." One of the others called him a fool, saying that all women were alike, and accepted a wager of one thousand that he would seduce Saccatapáví. The next day he disguised himself as an ascetic and stood near her hut, worshipping the sun. Saccatapáví saw him and worshipped him, but he neither looked at her nor spoke. On the fourth day he greeted her, and on the sixth day, as she stood near him, they talked of the penances they practiced, and the ascetic professed that his were far more severe than hers. But he confessed that he had found no spiritual calm; neither had she and they agreed that it would be better to return to and enjoy the lay life. He brought her to the city and having lain with her and made her drunk, he handed her over to his friends. This story was related by Kunála (q.v.), who said that he was the goldsmith of the story. J.iv.424, 427f. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ***** 36662 From: robmoult Date: Mon Sep 20, 2004 1:44am Subject: Re: [dsg] Toll Booth Operators and the Brahmaviharas Hi Phil, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "plnao" wrote: > > Over the past few weeks, I have developed a habit of smiling at toll > > booth operators as I pass them. I find this to be a truly effective > > way of putting metta into my daily life. > > The key words here are "developed a habit." I suspect that rather than > deciding to smile > at toll operators, you became aware one day that it was happening, and that > conditioned > these mindful moments of smiling. I would say that if someone read your post > who had never practiced > awareness of brahma-viharas and was impressed by your post and decided to go > out and smile > at strangers/neutral people in daily life, it wouldn't be the same. ===== Not sure how it would be different. Imagine that I had written a texbook on the brahmaviharas. Would that make my smile any different from a person who had never heard the term before? ===== > > I think of the thing i posted recently from "Deeds of merit" in which K > Sujin says that the rupa of the tone of voice > is a reflection of the citta lying beneath, or words to that effect. I > wonder if the same can be said for > smiles. The rupa involved in the smile conditioned by citta beneath. Maybe > the connection is not so direct. > But certainly a smile arising from wholesome citta is different than a smile > that is not. ===== The connection is extremely direct. K. Sujin was talking about verbal intimation, the creation of sound that communicates our intentions. Verbal intimation is rupa, it does not know anything. It is a special modification of the earth element that causes the vocal apparatus to create sounds to reveal intentions. There is also bodily imtimation, the movement of the body that communicates our intentions (smiles, gestures, etc.). Bodily intimation is also rupa, it does not know anything. It is a special modification of the wind element that causes the body to move in ways to reveal intentions. ===== > > Of course one smile is the result of both wholesome and unwholesome cittas > that are rising and falling in > passing moments. > For example, at my job I meet lots of new students in a week. They come > and go, as I work for a kind of large > chain school where students reserve 40 minute lessons based on their busy > schedules. I have many students who > are nervous, fatigued or disinterested-looking from the beginning. (Many > businessmen are required by their companies to take English lessons > whether they want to or not.) There is a lot of ice to break at times. I > have become aware of the way a smile can do so much > to break the ice, and there are times I take pride in my ability to coax > smiles from the dourest of students. It happened > the other day, actually. When I met the fellow he looked like a man with a > big chip on his shoulder, and within minutes he > was smiling. Now, there are both wholesome and unwholesome factors at work > here. There is karuna, a concern for his obvious unhappiness at the > beginning, and metta wishing him wellbeing. They do arise. But there is also > a sense of self-pride at being such a skillful smile inducer. The > unwholesome aspect > doesn't take away from the wholesome aspect - I used to think it did. Now I > understand (in theory at least) that there is kusala and akusala rising and > falling all the time, and the idea of having a stretch of undiluted kusala > is wrong understanding. ===== There is a difference in my interaction with the toll booth operator and your interaction with your students. By its nature, my interaction with the toll booth operator is quite close to momentary. This makes it much, much simpler than your interaction with your students. ===== > > In your case, because you have done a lot of work on eradicating > defilements that are hindrances to metta, I suspect that metta arises more > often in its pure form than it does for me but I'm sure you'll agree that > there are akusala cittas at work at times as well. Well, no kidding. ===== Can't comment on our comparitive accumulations, but I agree that both kusala and akusala arise and often in close proximity. ===== > > >Whether they smile back or not is a function > > of their own accumulations and their own kamma and should not impact > > my mental state. Using this technique, I foster equanimity. > > They *always* smile back at me! Keep working on it. (wink) > > Seriously, this equanimity is so important. As I've posted > often enough before, upekkha forms the core of my > brahma-viharas contemplations. It is the starting point, tied in > with right understanding at the intellectual level of the four noble truths > and the three characteristics. > BTW, I found a nice line from K Sujin today in the phrases that Sarah > compiled (available at zolag) "Panna which performs the function of > detachment > is the highest meaning of upekkha." I guess what you are talking about > above > implies detachment from a desire for results from your smiles. ===== Absolutely! And because the interaction is momentary, it is easier to be detached. ===== > > > > When the toll booth operator smiles back at me, there is sympathetic > > joy in their minds which momentarily pushes aside any thoughts of > > judgment (of drivers) or boredom. > > I would have to disagree with this. We can't know the other's cittas. For > all > you know, there may be conceit and even sexual desire in the other brought > on by your > smile! Beware!!! That smile of yours could lead to the downfall of the toll > booth operator's > happy family life! ===== You are correct that one cannot catagorically know another's citta. However, if you have seen my picture in the DSG album you will agree that the chances of somebody falling into lust at first sight when they see me is quite remote :-) ===== > Seriously, of course it's true that the possibility that there will be > mudita for the > other increases, > but I don't think it can be assumed. ===== My assumption is based on: - a toll booth operator smile arises in response to my smile - this smile is bodily intimation, indicating the presence of cittas with pleasant mental feeling - Pleasant mental feeling arising with akusala cittas is characterized as inducing excitement whereas pleasant mental feeling arising with kusala cittas is characterized as inducing calm; the type of smiles I get back are of the "calm" type, not of the "excited" type - the characterisitic of mudita is "gladdening" and that seems to fit my observation - the function of mudita is being unenvious at another's success; the toll booth operator is "sharing" my smile - the manifestation of mudita is elimination of boredom; that certainly seems to fit - the proximate cause of mudita is seeing the success of others; my smile certainly prompted the toll booth operator's reaction - mudita can be considered as succeeding when it makes boredom subside and failing when it produces merriment (excitement) In summary, I feel the odds are extremely good that mudita is arising in the mind of the toll booth operator (but of course, I cannot be 100% sure). Metta, Rob M :-) 36663 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Sep 20, 2004 2:23am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: "... as parasites a tree." ??? HI Dighanakha, (Phil at the end) --- dighanakha wrote: > Hello Sarah, > > Continuing again, with apologies for the delay. ... S: I assure you, no need to apologise, I need the breaks;-) ... > > At the beginning of your post your expressed bemusement at the > term 'fundamentalist'. As I keep referring to the dsg hardcore by > this term I think I should define what I mean by it. .... S: Bemusement was the right word. I’m not over-fond of your ‘dsg hardcore’ label either a some of our most active and long-term members to date like Howard, for a good example, are very much at the heart of DSG and would not like to be lumped together with me on this thread as you’ve seen from the very varied responses. No problem. .... >I would > not like you to think that I'm calling you a bunch of nitwits or > Al Qaida terrorists or something. ... S: Grateful for this at least;-) ..... >For future reference, this is > what I have in mind: > > "One who affirms a religious textual authority as holistic and > absolute, admitting of neither criticism nor reduction, and to be > interpreted only literally." .... S: Sorry, but no, the hat doesn’t fit ;-) Usually those of us who read abhidhamma everywhere are being asked to read the suttas *more* literally, not less, for a start. Even for the Jataka under discussion, I think I tend to look at the deeper and less literal meaning and to reflect on the latent tendencies which have been accumulated, ready to pounce..... .... > The moral lesson drawn from Jatakas about evil men usually > consists of a recommendation to avoid some particular vice or > folly. The moral lesson drawn from Jatakas about evil women very > often consists of a recommendation to avoid (distrust, disbelieve > shun etc.) women in general. .... S: For me the moral lesson -- whether for men or women -- is to understand the extent of the defilements under various circumstances and to see the urgency of developing the various paramis and especially the importance of really being ‘true’ to what is conditioned at this moment. As I wrote below: .... > S> but I take these as good reminders of how > S> dangerous and powerful anusaya (latent tendencies) are in both > S> men and women and how precious is the opportunity to develop > S> wisdom with detachment now. Otherwise we just continue endlessly > S> in Samsara in our foolish ways, even if some of these tendencies > S> are not so very obvious in this life. > > Hmmm. Well I guess that's one way one might take it. I was paying > more attention to what the cuckoo was advising us to do. Here's a > summary of his advice (from the verses only). > > FOR MEN: > Beware of women. > Never trust your wife to go to the house of a (male) friend. > Don't credit anything they say. > Don't cultivate the acquaintance of women who are intelligent, > nor those who are attractive, popular, married, or parasitical. > Don't trust a woman because you think she likes you, nor because > she is given to crying in your presence. > Don't trust a woman even if you have had ten children with her. > Once you understand what women are really like, flee from all of > them. > Shun women everywhere. > > FOR WOMEN > Drop dead! (nassatha) > Go to hell! (vinassatha) .... S: Well, again my interpetation above might not be so literal.....;-) I’ll sign off by quoting an extract from a post of Phil’s. (Phil, I understand ‘investigation’ to refer to understanding of realites. As you suggest, a moment of mindfulness with understanding is the greatest respect we can pay to the Buddha - no matter where we are or what we are doing. No need to wait until we’re in a temple! Btw, we also like Nara and used to have a keen member on DSG who lived and taught English in a school in Nara as I recall). Metta, Sarah >More from "Deeds of Merit" by Sujin Boriharnwanaket available at http://www.zolag.co.uk/meri2.html K.S. : So long as there are defilements there will be conceit. Conceit is one type of defilement. Some people have a particular defilement to a great extent, but of other kinds of defilements they have only a slight degree. Moreover, there are coarse, medium and subtle defilements, and if one does not investigate and consider ones cittas in detail, one will not know at all the characteristic of each kind of defilement which has been accumulated from one citta to the next citta. The Buddha attained enlightenment and since he had reached the end of the cycle of birth and death, he passed away completely. However, he taught the Dhamma and the Dhamma is his successor. People who pay homage to the Buddha, the Dhamma and the Sangha, and who give expression to their respect by the investigation and the practice of the Dhamma, will eradicate defilements stage by stage, until they are all eradicated.< ====== 36664 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Sep 20, 2004 3:01am Subject: Re: [dsg] The Perfect Gift HI RobM, Greatly appreciated all your answers (well, with a couple of Ken H’s amendments) to the 21 questions. Really excellent. I also enjoy your posts and encouragement of dana and all kinds of kusala. Like Phil, I do, however, have some reservations about some of the generalizations, however and I think it’s very important to understand more and more about the varied nature of the cittas (and other dhammas) whilst performing good deeds, so as not live under any illusions. I'm thinking of sacca (truth) parami to really know these cittas. For example, you’ve posted this one on donating blood a few times and I’m going to be a bit of a wet blanket here: --- robmoult wrote: > > Hi All, > > Blood is an anonymous gift. There is no way that the recipient could > know who the donor was. Donating blood is a pure act of giving, > without any other possible motives. .... S: Isn’t this quite a generalization? The generosity involved could be quite small in some instances. For example, as a school child, I started donating blood. It was considered rather a grown-up thing to do and not everyone got permission from their parents, so a few bragging rights went with it for some. I believe we also got to skip a class from memory..... In my case, I had very low blood pressure and it’s always been difficult for anyone to extract blood. Invariably as a small teenager, I’d faint somewhere like on the train platform on my way home afterwards....so, it was actually with some relief that a few years later, after a bout of hepatitis, I was told not to donate blood ever again. In Jon’s case, he has a rare blood type and tends to be called up at odd times to go to the centre to make an extra donation. Now, I’ve never discussed how ‘pure’ his act of giving is, but for most people it would be natural to show more willingness when called out of a boring meeting rather than called up in the middle of lunch. Either way, in his case, it is considered the ‘duty’ of a civil servant and I’m sure the ‘culture’ again affects the act. Mixed motives for most of us for sure. ..... > Blood is free from economics. When a gift is opened, the recipient > cannot help but think of how much was paid. Unlike other types of > gifts, neither the donor nor the recipient attaches an economic > value to a gift of blood. ..... S: Again, I could confess to selling blood in Athens as a teenager in order to earn a meal before hiking home penniless.....;-) I’m not sure about now, but definitely not so long ago in China, I believe everyone was well aware of the price.... .... > Blood is a very personal gift. What could be more personal than > blood? Blood cannot be manufactured, except by a human body. During > the act of donating, blood is pumped into the sac by the heart of > the donor. .... S: :-/ .... > The recipient always appreciates a gift of blood. Other types of > gifts are sometimes left unused or unappreciated. When a person > receives blood it is because they really need it; perhaps it is even > a case of life or death. > > You do not need to be wealthy to donate blood, just healthy. I think > that we all agree that health is more important than wealth. Let us > celebrate our good health and share it with others who are less > fortunate (less healthy) than ourselves by donating blood. .... S: It’s good to encourage donations. I certainly do the same. I just can’t get quite as excited by the ‘pure’ act as you, Rob. So maybe no 'perfect gift' to my mind -- just 'perfect' cittas perhaps? But then, we'd have to refer to the Buddha's!! Smiles - now I don’t drive or go through toll-booths but I do tend to give special attention to street-sweepers and rubbish-collectors on my walks......but again, there’s attachment as well as metta and sometimes they probably think it’s that crazy ‘gwai-por’ (ghost lady) smiling and saying funny words which makes me smile more.... Metta, Sarah p.s the description of how the Kathavatthu came to be written can be read in detail in the introduction to Commentary with the exact events foreseen by the Buddha. I can type it out if anyone wishes. ====== 36665 From: robmoult Date: Mon Sep 20, 2004 5:26am Subject: Re: [dsg] The Perfect Gift Hi Sarah (and Htoo / Phil), --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Like Phil, I do, however, have some reservations about some of the > generalizations, however and I think it's very important to understand > more and more about the varied nature of the cittas (and other dhammas) > whilst performing good deeds, so as not live under any illusions. I'm > thinking of sacca (truth) parami to really know these cittas. > > For example, you've posted this one on donating blood a few times and I'm > going to be a bit of a wet blanket here: A sincere thanks for being a wet blanket. I have said it before :-) and it is a generalization :-) but "I have never learned anything from anybody who agreed with me!" I know that one of the main weaknesses of my writing style is that I tend to generalize. When you are being a wet blanket, you are providing me with a reality check. Frankly, I feel that here on DSG that I am among friends so I don't mind making mistakes and I really appreciate it when I get corrected. For the same reason, I really appreciate the detailed feedback (and corrections) on my book from Htoo and Phil. This book is very important to me. Htoo, Phil and Lee have provided me some excellent feedback. Metta, Rob M :-) 36666 From: Dan D. Date: Mon Sep 20, 2004 6:36am Subject: Re: Rob M: "...carries the label 'akusala'" Dear Rob M, Your descriptions are wonderful. Thank-you for your patience and for taking the time to go through this -- I'm not quick to catch on. Maybe the answer to my question is hiding in your explanations, but I'm having some catching it. Here's the question in slightly different words: How can we say that bad kamma results in painful bodily sensation? Kamma doesn't cause the tree to fall, but kamma in some sense causes the pain (which, by all accounts, is why the vipaka is called vipaka and akusalavipaka). How so? It is not enough to say: "In other words, the painful bodily feeling arose because an intrinsically undesireable rupa (the tactile object) arose together with body sensitivity (another rupa). This feeling arose as part of a vipaka citta which carries the label 'akusala'," because there is no explanation of any connection to past akusala dhamma as a cause of the pain. I can see that Your analysis that DNSC causes the attention to advert to the sensation is hitting on a great explanation, provided that (1) it is correct (and it seems to be); and (2) DNSC for pain is developed through akusala dhamma. I will need to keep considering these points for some time to really "get it", but in the meantime, I thank you mightily. Dan 36667 From: Dan D. Date: Mon Sep 20, 2004 6:54am Subject: [dsg] Re: CSC 4-[Sarah: "citta is..."] Dear Sarah, Is not the idea of "conceptual right view" a trap, much like the notion of "conventional right effort"? Isn't it just taking a factor of the eightfold path and reconstituting it as concept rather than cetasika? Is there any canonical or commentarial support for doing that? Metta, Dan 36668 From: Date: Mon Sep 20, 2004 2:55am Subject: Re: [dsg] Toll Booth Operators and the Brahmaviharas Hi, Rob - In a message dated 9/20/04 5:29:47 AM Eastern Daylight Time, rob.moult@j... writes: > My assumption is based on: > - a toll booth operator smile arises in response to my smile > - this smile is bodily intimation, indicating the presence of cittas > with pleasant mental feeling > - Pleasant mental feeling arising with akusala cittas is > characterized as inducing excitement whereas pleasant mental feeling > arising with kusala cittas is characterized as inducing calm; the > type of smiles I get back are of the "calm" type, not of > the "excited" type > - the characterisitic of mudita is "gladdening" and that seems to > fit my observation > - the function of mudita is being unenvious at another's success; > the toll booth operator is "sharing" my smile > - the manifestation of mudita is elimination of boredom; that > certainly seems to fit > - the proximate cause of mudita is seeing the success of others; my > smile certainly prompted the toll booth operator's reaction > - mudita can be considered as succeeding when it makes boredom > subside and failing when it produces merriment (excitement) > > In summary, I feel the odds are extremely good that mudita is > arising in the mind of the toll booth operator (but of course, I > cannot be 100% sure). > > =========================== I think your comments here are right on. Your inferring mudita is most reasonable. I think there may be some more as well. I think there may also be gratefulness for kindness, joy at being given recognition, and happiness at the chance for sharing a pleasant moment with another human being (but this is close to mudita). BTW, I don't consider verbal and bodily intimation to be simple, conceptually unconstructed phenomena (paramattha dhammas), but behavioral complexes. So I wouldn't call them rupas, but I would refer to them as "rupic". With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 36669 From: robmoult Date: Mon Sep 20, 2004 7:04am Subject: Kamma Hi Nina / Rob K and all, For some time now, my understanding of kamma has been different from K. Sujin (as reported by Sarah). K. Sujin says that only when all of the conditions recorded in the Atthasalini (Vol I, Book I, Part III, Chapter V "Discourse on Courses of Immoral Action" and Chapter VI "Discourse on Courses of Moral Action") are present will kamma be created. K. Sujin says that if all of these conditions are not met, then kamma is not created (but accumulations are reinforced in all cases). My understanding was that all volitional actions created kamma but when the conditions recorded in the Atthasalini were present, the kamma created was strong enough to condition the rebirth linking citta. I checked some Suttas on kamma and they all seem to talk about rebirth but never about kamma ripening during a lifetime. There was stuff about accumulations affecting actions during one's lifetime, but nothing on kamma. I decided to investigate asynchronous kamma condition in the Abhidhamma. My first stop was Bhikkhu Bodhi's Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma, Table 8.3, "Conditioning and Conditioned States of the Twenty Four Conditions". This did not help much. Then I remembered that the charts in BB's CMA were prepared by U Silananda and that I had a set of lecture notes by U Silananda that included the charts from BB's CMA and often gave more detail. Sure enough, U Silananda's lecture notes went into more detail on asynchronous kamma (Nanakkhanika-kamma)condition: A. Cetana in past lobhamula citta conditions: - at time of rebirth: akusala vipaka upekkha santirana + 10 cetaskias / kammaja-rupa - during existence: 7 akusala vipaka cittas + cetasikas / undesirable kammaja-rupa B. Cetana in past kamavacara kusala cittas, with knowledge, of superior (ukkattha) type, conditions: - at time of rebirth: 8 kamavacara vipakka cittas + cetasikas / kammaja-rupa - during existence: 8 kamavacara vipaka cittas + cetasikas / 8 kusala vipaka cittas + cetasikas / desirable kammaja-rupa C. Cetana in past kamavacara kusala cittas, with knowledge, of inferior (omaka) type, conditions: - at time of rebirth: 4 kamavacara vipakka cittas without nana + cetasikas / kammaja-rupa - during existence: 8 kamavacara vipaka cittas + cetasikas / desirable kammaja-rupa D. Cetana in past kamavacara kusala cittas, without knowledge, of superior (ukkattha) type, conditions: - at time of rebirth: 4 kamavacara vipakka cittas without nana + cetasikas / kammaja-rupa - during existence: 8 kamavacara vipaka cittas + cetasikas / desirable kammaja-rupa E. Cetana in past kamavacara kusala cittas, without knowledge, of inferior (omaka) type, conditions: - at time of rebirth: kusala vipaka upekkha santirana + 10 cetaskias / kammaja-rupa - during existence: 8 kusala vipaka cittas + cetasikas / desirable kammaja-rupa [The table goes on to explain rupavacara, rupavacara for asana-satta state, arupavacara and first magga citta] Here are some observations on this table: 1. Dosa-mula cittas and moha-mula cittas do not create kamma! 2. It would appear as though a past lobha-mula citta conditions rebirth linking into a woeful state (bhavanga is akusala vipaka upekkha santirana) and that it is only during a woeful existence will the 7 akusala vipaka cittas (5 sense consciousness + receiving + investigating) arise as a result of the same lobha-mula citta which propelled one into that state! 3. It would appear as though a past kamavacara kusala citta conditions rebirth linking into a happy destination and that it is only during an existence in a happy destination that the 8 kusala vipaka cittas (5 sense consciousness + receiving + 2 investigating) arise as a result of the same kamavacara kusala citta which propelled one into that state! 4. Kamma is superior (ukkhattha) when preceding and subsequent actions are both kusala (i.e. planning dana -> doing dana -> rejoicing in dana). Kamma is inferior (omaka) when preceding or subsequent actions are akusala (i.e. doing dana for appearances -> doing dana -> regretting doing dana). My previous perspective is that the sense-consciousness citta, the receiving citta and the investigating citta in different citta processes were the vipaka of different past javana cittas. It now appears as though all these vipaka cittas throughout the entire existence are the result of the same javana citta which propelled one into this existence! This is a completely new understanding of kamma and it appears as though K. Sujin may have been correct! I have yet to more fully explore the implications of this, but I would appreciate feedback. Metta, Rob M :-) PS: Dan, my exchage with you was a key condition in prompting this line of thought. Much appreciated! 36670 From: robmoult Date: Mon Sep 20, 2004 7:27am Subject: Re: Rob M: "...carries the label 'akusala'" Hi Dan, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Dan D." wrote: > How can we say that bad kamma results in painful > bodily sensation? ===== I didn't say that bad kamma results in painful bodily sensation :-). When an inherently unpleasant tactile object meets body sensitivity and body consciousness arises, this body consciousness arises with painful bodily feeling. In simple terms, the pain comes from the awareness of the tree hitting the leg, not some action in a past lifetime! :-) ===== > > Kamma doesn't cause the tree to fall, but kamma in some sense causes > the pain (which, by all accounts, is why the vipaka is called vipaka > and akusalavipaka). ===== The citta is called unwholesome (akusala) even though it has no ethical qualities (i.e. no roots). Just because it is called vipaka does not mean that the originating javana citta has anything to do with the current object. Dan, if it makes you feel any better, your questions have caused me to look into this subject more deeply and make some interesting observations (see my last post titled Kamma). ===== > How so? It is not enough to say: "In other words, > the painful bodily feeling arose because an intrinsically > undesireable rupa (the tactile object) arose together with body > sensitivity (another rupa). This feeling arose as part of a vipaka > citta which carries the label 'akusala'," because there is no > explanation of any connection to past akusala dhamma as a cause of > the pain. ===== Again, I ask why the past akusala javana citta has to have any bearing on the current object. As an analogy, the kamma from our last thought process (the maranasanna vithi) creates the kamma that drives every single one of our bhavanaga cittas for the next existence. Metta, Rob M :-) 36671 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Sep 20, 2004 10:01am Subject: Intro Visuddhimagga XIV, 101. Intro Visuddhimagga XIV, 101. Text Vis. 101: 101. III. i. A. (b) 'Unprofitable resultant', though is without root-cause only. It is of seven kinds as (50) eye-consciousness, (51)-(54) ear-, nose-, tongue-, and body-consciousness, (55) mind-element with the function of receiving, and (56) mind-consciousness-element with the function of investigating, etc., and having five positions. It should be understood as to characteristic, etc., in the same way as the profitable resultant without root-cause (34)-(41). Intro Vis. 101: The five sense-cognitions of seeing etc., receiving-consciousness (sampa.ticchana-citta) and investigating-consciousness (santiira.na-citta) can be kusala vipaakacitta or akusala vipaakacitta, depending on the kamma that produces them. In this section the Vis. deals with the types of citta that are akusala vipaakacittas. ========== Text Vis: 'Unprofitable resultant', though is without root-cause only. It is of seven kinds as (50) eye-consciousness, (51)-(54) ear-, nose-, tongue-, and body-consciousness, (55) mind-element with the function of receiving, and (56)mind-consciousness-element with the function of investigating, etc., and having five positions. =========== N: There are seven types of akusala vipaakacitta, whereas in the case of ahetuka kusala vipaakacittas, there are eight types. The reason is that there are two types of investigating-consciousness which are kusala vipaaka: one type accompanied by pleasant feeling (when the object is very pleasant) and one type by indifferent feeling. There is only one type of investigating-consciousness that is akusala vipaaka, and it is accompanied by indifferent feeling. There are five positions (.thaana) of satiira.na-citta which is akusala vipaakacitta, and this means that this type of citta can perform the functions of investigating (santiira.na), of retention (tadaaramma.na), of rebirth, of bhavanga and of dying. Text Vis. =============== It should be understood as to characteristic, etc., in the same way as the profitable resultant without root-cause. =========== N: Akusala vipaakacitta is never accompanied by roots, it is ahetuka, rootless. The Tiika states that he said that akusala vipaaka is rootless, because the nature of vipaaka is not reprehensible; it cannot have the roots of lobha, etc. that are the causes of unwise attention (ayoniso manasikaara), and also because it is akusala vipaaka it cannot be associated with the roots of alobha etc., the cause of what is profitable. N: Thus, akusala vipaakacitta is not called ahetuka akusala vipaakacitta; the word ahetuka, rootless, is superfluous because it is always without roots. It is without the akusala roots of lobha, dosa, moha, and without the beautiful roots (sobhana hetus) of alobha, adosa and amoha. It is not reprehensible, unprofitable, nor blameless, profitable. In the case of kusala vipaakacittas, the differentiation of sahetuka and ahetuka has to be made, since kusala kamma can produce eight sahetuka vipaakacittas that can be accompanied by the two roots of alobha and adosa, or by three roots, by alobha, adosa and paññaa, and also eight rootless, ahetuka, kusala vipaakacittas. ****** When seeing arises it may be kusala vipaakacitta or akusala vipaakacitta. It is conditioned by kusala kamma or by akusala kamma. It is not beneficial to try to find out whether seeing is kusala vipaakacitta or akusala vipaakacitta. It is only one moment and it falls away immediately. After it has fallen away javanacittas which are kusala cittas or akusala cittas arise. When there is wise attention to visible object kusala cittas arise, and when there is unwise attention, akusala cittas arise, depending on conditions. Kusala citta is of the jaati that is kusala and akusala citta is of the jaati that is akusala, whereas kusala vipaakacitta and akusala vipaakacitta are only of one jaati, the jaati of vipaaka. As we have seen in the section of kusala vipaakacitta, the Tiika explains that vipaaka is passive, it does not produce any result. Whereas kusala and akusala are active. We read: The investigating-consciousness, santiira.na-citta that is akusala vipaakacitta can perform the function of rebirth, bhavanga and cuti (dying). It can be the result of akusala kamma, motivated by one of eleven types of akusala cittas: eight akusala cittas rooted in attachment (lobha-muula-cittas), two akusala cittas rooted in aversion (dosa-muulacittas) and one akusala citta rooted in ignorance (moha-muula-citta) accompanied by doubt. The moha-muula-citta accompanied by restlessness (uddhacca) produces result only in the course of life. Thus, eleven types can motivate akusala kamma that produces an unhappy rebirth. In that case the rebirth-consciousness is akusala vipaakacitta which is the same type as the investigating-consciousness, santiira.na-citta. As we have seen, this type of citta can perform the functions of investigating (santiira.na), of retention (tadaaramma.na), of rebirth, of bhavanga and of dying. Only one type of akusala vipaakacitta, the santiira.na-citta that is akusala vipaakacitta, can perform the function of rebirth in unhappy planes, but it has many intensities. There are four classes of unhappy planes: the Hell planes, the plane of demons (asuras), the plane of Petas (ghosts) and the animal world. Nobody can escape the result of kamma. Even kamma of many lives ago may have an opportunity to produce an unhappy rebirth. ***** Nina. 36672 From: htootintnaing Date: Mon Sep 20, 2004 10:37am Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 067 ) Dear Dhamma Friends, Sakadagams have thinner kilesas or defilement than sotapams who have eradicated ditthi and vicikiccha. If they stay the same in this life they will be reborn twice after which there is nibbana. This two rebirths are their final rebirths. The last rebirth will be in one of 5 suddhavasa catuttha jhana rupa brahma bhumis called aviha, atappa, sudassa, sudassi, and akanittha depending on their indriya dhamma which is the most powerful. Saddha will leads to aviha, viriya to atappa, sati to sudassa, samadhi to sudassi, and panna to akanittha. As the last life is in rupa brahma bhumi, the life just before the last life may still be in kama bhumis including manussa bhumi or human realm. These beings are never reborn in 4 apaya bhumis as they will not do any akusala that would lead them rebirth in lower 4 realms. The explanation on uddhacca citta in Tiika tells that sotapams, sakadagams, and anagams may well still have uddhacca which is a moha citta and akusala citta. But they are not reborn in lower realms. This indicates that uddhacca cetasika does not cause rebirth even though it gives its results in the course of life that is pavatti effect. For sakadagams, there left 2 more lives to be reborn. This means that if they die as sakadagams. But some do not stay the same stagnant in this stage of sakadagam. They will continue their dhamma contemplation and they will continue their mahasatipatthanas through four methods namely kayaanupassana, vedanaanupassana, cittaanupassana and dhammaanupassana. At a time, when conditions are right, these sakadagams approach nibbana again. They see dhamma clearly. At a indefinite time, when bhavanga cittas stop and vithi cittas of anagami magga citta and phala cittas arise, the first citta is manodvaravajjana citta. It contemplates on arammana of nama and rupa dhamma that is paramattha dhamma which have marks of anicca, dukkha, and anatta. After that as soon as mano dvara avajjana citta dies out, parikamma or preparatory mahakusala citta arises and falls away. Next arises upacara mahakusala citta which is proximate consciousness to magga citta. After vanishing of upacara mahakusala citta, there arises anuloma mahakusala citta taking the object of mahasatipatthana that is rupa dhamma or nama dhamma which have marks of anicca, dukkha, and anatta. All these cittas are tihetuka kamavacara mahakusala cittas. They are not rupavacara jhana cittas or arupavacara jhana cittas. They are not absorbed but they are viewing paramattha dhamma as anicca or dukkha or anatta. Panatta does not arise and does not fall away. Panatta does not have anicca, dukkha, or anatta. All rupavacara cittas take the object panatta. They will never view on rupa or nama which have marks of anicca, dukkha, and anatta. Mano dvara avajjana citta is a kiriya citta. After that parikamma, upacara, anuloma cittas arise successively without interruption. All these preliminary cittas are kamavacara mahakusala tihetuka cittas. They are not rupavacara rupa jhana cittas or arupavacara arupa jhana cittas. As soon as anuloma mahakusala citta falls away, there arises another mahakusala citta called gotrabhu citta. This citta called gotrabhu citta is also a kamavacara mahakusala citta and it is still in the domain of non-arahats. But this citta is looking at or viewing on or holding or taking nibbana as its object, while it is leaving the old lineage. So it is called lineage-changing consciousness. After its passing away, there arises anagami magga citta. This citta has ekaggata cetasika which is also called samadhi. This samadhi here in anagami magga citta is samma-samadhi. It is one of Noble Eightfold Path. This is dead sure. Again this citta anagami magga citta's samadhi is called appana samadhi. That is it is an absorptive concentration. Yes. The mind at that time is totally absorbed into the object, here the object nibbana. So this can be called lokuttara jhana. Up till now in this vithi vara there is no rupa jhana or arupa jhana cittas. But anagami magga itself is an appana samadhi. This is why one of Dhammapada verse says that without jhana, panna cannot arise and without panna, jhana cannot arise. It is for lokuttara jhanas. It is not for loki jhanas like rupa jhana or arupa jhana. When dhammas are not well understood some people argue that without jhana, nibbana cannot be obtained and they try jhana first and then try to develop panna. This is wrong. For magga nanas to arise, rupa jhana or arupa jhana are not necessary even though if it is good the practitioner is proficient in these 8 jhanas. And these 8 jhanas may have some help in attaining higher nana like magga and phala nanas. But they are not necessary. That is their absence do not hinder arising of magga nana or phala nana. There are sukkavipassakas even in The Buddha time. Sukka means 'pure'. This means that they do not possess any rupavacara jhanas and arupavacara arupa jhanas. But they did attain arahatta magga nana through panna. This arising anagami magga lokuttara kusala citta is 84th citta or 89 cittas in total. As soon as it vanishes, there arise 2 successive phala cittas or fruition consciousness, which are the result of former citta anagami magga lokuttara kusala citta. No other kusala citta gives rise to their resultant citta vipaka immediately but lokuttara kusala cittas do this job immediately. If there is no parikamma kamavacara mahakusala citta, there will arise 3 successive anagami phala lokuttara vipaka cittas. This citta, anagami phala lokuttara vipaka citta is 88th citta of 89 cittas in total. I do hope this message is clear for everyone even though words are very heavy. There left only 2 cittas. After that we will have discussed all 89 cittas. Initially we have discussed some classifications. But as they are useful, they may reappear in later in this thread 'Dhamma Thread'. Citta is a reality. There are 89 cittas and nothing more than that. Citta and cetasikas are inseparable in a given citta. But as cetasikas do have their own characteristics and functions they do worth separate discussion. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta Htoo Naing PS:Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome and they will be valuable. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts. 36673 From: nori Date: Mon Sep 20, 2004 10:42am Subject: Re: [dsg] To support or abandon your parents (child, relatives)? - Sutta-Nipâta Hi Howard, Just to add a little something to my last post ... --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "nori" wrote: > Hi Howard, > > H: > > One more thing: The > > Buddha did mention what an *enormous* debt a person owes to his/her > parents, > > even to the point, as I vaguely recall, of the appropriateness of > carrying > > them around on his/her shoulders. (As you point out, in the case of > the > > Bodhisatta, his parents were well off, and, so, his leaving them > was not thoughtless > > as regards their financial welfare.) > > > > With metta, > > Howard > > > Yes, I remember that Sutta. > > Went something like: 'Even if one were to carry both parents around > on his shoulders, one would still not repay ones debt to his/her > parents; for parents do much, endure much, for their children.' > > Something like that, its from memory. > I find alot of the similies the Buddha made pretty funny. It seems he had a sense of humour, like in this example where he used the example of carrying around each parent on both shoulders. Its a funny image. Another one I found funny was a sutta where he gave an example where even if a bhikku stayed close to him at all times. Holding on to his robe, with each foot on top of Buddha's; taking a step every time he took a step; going where ever he goes. He said even if one were to stay that physically close to him, that would not make that bhikku close to him, where as one who practiced the dhamma would. Anyway, I thought that was pretty funny too. > I think an important point maybe, is that one should not go forth if > it is not appropriate for that one's life. > I remember in other suttas where he mentioned some other things that would make it inappropriate for one to go forth - like if one was in debt. Also, if one still lived for sensual pleasures, was still full of greed, etc. it would also not be appropriate. > I could imagine in some Buddhist countries, maybe, some parents being > happy and proud for their child if they have chosen to go forth. > > In this case it is probably appropriate. > > However, what do you think about going forth if doing so worried and > stressed the mother (even though being financially, and in other > aspects secure)? > > Thanks for your valuable feedback. > > > metta, > > nori H: At least in the Theravada tradition, as far as I know, one *may not* go forth without parental approval. (And I mean for adults too!) Are you sure about this ? Where did you hear this from ? metta, nori 36674 From: htootintnaing Date: Mon Sep 20, 2004 10:57am Subject: Re: Intro Visuddhimagga XIV, 101. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > Intro Visuddhimagga XIV, 101. There are four classes of unhappy planes: the Hell planes, the plane of demons (asuras), the plane of Petas (ghosts) and the animal world. Nobody can escape the result of kamma. Even kamma of many lives ago may have an opportunity to produce an unhappy rebirth. ***** Nina. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Nina and All, As soon as arahatta magga citta arises any kamma that may give rise to rebirth are destroyed. But there are still kamma as samsara has been very long. These remaining kamma while cannot give rise to rebirth, they may well give rise to their results in the course of life ( pavatti ). As soon as cuti citta of arahats arises, all existing kamma are destroyed completely. Result-ungiven kamma are called ahosi kamma. Until cuti citta of arahats, there are still many potentials that kamma can give rise to their effects. Please see in the case of Venerable Mahamoggallana. As he had the highest jhana power only second to The Buddha, he stayed away from the attackers who were appointed to disarm The Buddha that is to kill the left wing of The Buddha, Mahamoggallana. He stayed so three times. After the third attempt, he reconsidered and look into the past lives with pubbenivasa nana. Then he saw that he did very wicked akusala of killing own parents who were blinds and burden for them as advised by his young wife. This kamma was far away but when it comes... Kamma kamma kamma. No one is creating any thing. But own actions bring kamma immediately even though the results may come at any time. May be in the same life of arising of kamma or may be as long as kappas as in case of Venerable Mahamoggallana. Those who want to avoid unhappy rebirths have to do as many kusalas as possible. Bhavana kusalas will accumulate and at one time, when there are all the necessary conditions, then everything will be transcended. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 36675 From: htootintnaing Date: Mon Sep 20, 2004 11:02am Subject: Re: Rob M'sTheory Behind The Buddha's Smile ( 05 ) by Htoo --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" wrote: > Dear Rob M and All, > > Theory Behind The Buddha Smile by Rob M at Files section. > > Page 22, in the box. > > 1.A fruit falls = A mango falls. I would say a mango falls. Because > he knows that he is sleeping under a mango tree. > > 2.The man removes his headcovering = The man opens his eyes. I would > say eyes open. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Rob M, I hope you may be able to send your ebook one page a day to my address ' htootintnaing@y... ' starting from page 22. Thanks in advance. With Metta, Htoo Naing 36676 From: Date: Mon Sep 20, 2004 7:46am Subject: Re: [dsg] To support or abandon your parents (child, relatives)? - Sutta-Nipâta Hi, Nori - In a message dated 9/20/04 1:45:32 PM Eastern Daylight Time, nori_public@a... writes: > Hi Howard, > > Just to add a little something to my last post ... > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "nori" > wrote: > >Hi Howard, > > > >H: > >>One more thing: The > >>Buddha did mention what an *enormous* debt a person owes to > his/her > >parents, > >>even to the point, as I vaguely recall, of the appropriateness > of > >carrying > >>them around on his/her shoulders. (As you point out, in the case > of > >the > >>Bodhisatta, his parents were well off, and, so, his leaving them > >was not thoughtless > >>as regards their financial welfare.) > >> > >>With metta, > >>Howard > > > > > >Yes, I remember that Sutta. > > > >Went something like: 'Even if one were to carry both parents > around > >on his shoulders, one would still not repay ones debt to his/her > >parents; for parents do much, endure much, for their children.' > > > >Something like that, its from memory. > > > > I find alot of the similies the Buddha made pretty funny. It seems > he had a sense of humour, like in this example where he used the > example of carrying around each parent on both shoulders. Its a > funny image. > ----------------------------------------------- I agree that he had a keen sense of humor. Moreover, besides being fully enlightened, I think he was absolutely *brilliant* intellectually. (Truly amazing!) BTW, as regards the parents-on-shoulders simile, one thought that occurs to me is that the image of carrying one's aged or ill or dependent parents in that way is reminiscent of how a parent might literally carry his young children. Perhaps eliciting such a recollection (and analogy) was intentional on the Buddha's part. The Buddha was a natural master of language and psychology. ----------------------------------------------- > > Another one I found funny was a sutta where he gave an example where > even if a bhikku stayed close to him at all times. Holding on to his > robe, with each foot on top of Buddha's; taking a step every time he > took a step; going where ever he goes. He said even if one were to > stay that physically close to him, that would not make that bhikku > close to him, where as one who practiced the dhamma would. Anyway, I > thought that was pretty funny too. > > >I think an important point maybe, is that one should not go forth > if > >it is not appropriate for that one's life. > > > > I remember in other suttas where he mentioned some other things that > would make it inappropriate for one to go forth - like if one was in > debt. Also, if one still lived for sensual pleasures, was still full > of greed, etc. it would also not be appropriate. > > >I could imagine in some Buddhist countries, maybe, some parents > being > >happy and proud for their child if they have chosen to go forth. > > > >In this case it is probably appropriate. > > > >However, what do you think about going forth if doing so worried > and > >stressed the mother (even though being financially, and in other > >aspects secure)? > > > >Thanks for your valuable feedback. > > > > > >metta, > > > >nori > > > H: At least in the Theravada tradition, as far as I know, one *may > not* go forth without parental approval. (And I mean for adults too!) > > > Are you sure about this ? > > Where did you hear this from ? > ------------------------------------------------- Howard: A few years back I attended the ordination of a couple Americans at a Cambodian wat. I had been told by one of the ordinants, who is now very active as a teaching monk and meditator, that such was definitely required. I even recall the *very* touching moment at the ordination ceremony at which he sincerely, with great emotion, thanked his mother for giving her permission. There is also the following from the Buddhist monastic code, the section on ordination: "Applicants falling into the following categories should not be given the Going-forth. As the Going-forth is a preliminary procedure for full Acceptance, this means that they should not receive full Acceptance, either. Any bhikkhu who gives any of these applicants the Going-forth incurs a dukkata. However, the applicant does count as having properly gone forth; if accepted, he is properly accepted, and need not be expelled. (1) Those with obligations. This general category includes the following: (a) A son whose parents have not given their permission. According to the Commentary, this requirement includes foster parents as well as birth parents. There is no need to get a parent's permission if he/she is no longer alive or has abandoned the son. If the parents are divorced, there is no need to get permission from the parent without custody. If the parents are dead, and relatives have come to depend on the applicant, it's a wise policy to inform the relatives before giving him the Going-forth, so as to prevent disagreement, but there is no offense in not doing so. If an applicant ordains with his parents' permission, later disrobes, and then wants to reordain, he must receive his parents' permission again. If an applicant without his parents' permission threatens suicide or other disturbances if not given the Going-forth, the Commentary recommends giving him the Going-forth and then explaining the situation to the parents, advising them to talk to him. If an applicant -- even if he is an only child -- is far from home and asks for the Going-forth, it's allowable to give him the Going-forth and then to send him, with a number of bhikkhus, to inform the parents." ------------------------------------------------ > > > > metta, > > nori ======================= With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 36677 From: Date: Mon Sep 20, 2004 7:51am Subject: Re: [dsg] To support or abandon your parents (child, relatives)? - Sutta-Nip... Hi again, Nori - In a message dated 9/20/04 2:47:06 PM Eastern Daylight Time, upasaka@a... writes: > A few years back I attended the ordination of a couple Americans at a > Cambodian wat. ======================= To clarify: The wat is in the United States. :-) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 36678 From: nori Date: Mon Sep 20, 2004 2:11pm Subject: Re: [dsg] To support or abandon your parents (child, relatives)? - Sutta-Nipâta hi Howard, Thats interesting, considering the Buddha himself went forth despite all the pleading and effort his father gave for him not to go. I wonder if this is also included in the vinaya of the tipitaka ? Thanks for the info. peace, nori 36679 From: plnao Date: Mon Sep 20, 2004 3:23pm Subject: Re: [dsg] The Perfect Gift Hi Rob, and all Thanks, Rob, for encouraging us to practice dana in this way. This morning I read this from K Sujin: "One cannot develop panna if we don't see the value of dana and sila." (from "phrases" available at http://www.zolag.co.uk/ . Nice material for reflection.) It reminded me that with all my attachment to the idea of developing panna, I don't yet understand the value of dana. (I see the value of sila in helping to eradicate defilements - and that relates to my attachment to the idea of panna.) I hope that reading "Deeds of Merit" will help me develop my appreciation of dana. At this point, I am quite tied up in knots about seeing selfish motives behind much to do with dana. That will change, hopefully. (Our friend Antony hosts a Yahoo group devoted to dana. Perhaps if he sees this, he could provide us with a link.) > A sincere thanks for being a wet blanket. I have said it before :-) > and it is a generalization :-) but "I have never learned anything > from anybody who agreed with me!" The above is directed at Sarah, but if my wetblanket-ish comments in the tollbooth thread were able to help you see even one Dhamma point from a new angle, it would be one small step toward thanking you for all you've taught me (us.) I'll be returning to the tollbooth operators tonight or tommorow when I have time. > I know that one of the main weaknesses of my writing style is that I > tend to generalize. When you are being a wet blanket, you are > providing me with a reality check. Frankly, I feel that here on DSG > that I am among friends so I don't mind making mistakes and I really > appreciate it when I get corrected. Generalzing is not necessarily a mistake, if done with awareness, I think. If we want to introduce Dhamma to newcomers, I think some generalizing is necessary and helpful . In my opinion, we can't go straight to Abhidhamma, for example. > For the same reason, I really appreciate the detailed feedback (and > corrections) on my book from Htoo and Phil. This book is very > important to me. Htoo, Phil and Lee have provided me some excellent > feedback. See my comment above about returning a debt of gratitude to you. And I'd like to let everybody know that I wasn't foolish enough to try to make Dhamma-related comments to Rob similar to those of Htoo. My Dhamma insight is obviously not at that level. They were more in the line of proofreading, editing suggestions about areas that could be expanded etc. Otherwise I would share them here. (Sarah was asking me to do so...) Metta, Phil 36680 From: Herman Hofman Date: Mon Sep 20, 2004 3:51pm Subject: RE: [dsg] "... as parasites a tree." ??? Hi Azita, Always good to read your posts. ========== Maybe it is true, what is being stated about wimmin! The Prophet Muhammad seemed to have a few wimmin problems - but then he had far too many wives!!!!!! We have learnt that a female can never become a Buddha, and [to stir the pot a bit further] it is stated somewhere - but can't say where - that it is somewhat better kamma to be born male than female. Whatever! and may we all have lots of patience, courage and good cheer, to put up with whatever we are. ========== What you say is true; we have learnt. It is a fact of life that the great books which folks use as their moral foundations become self-fulfilling prophecies. The status of women is a case in point. Noone need kid themselves that the improving status of women in the Western world is in any way due to the influence of any of the great books. To the contrary. It is precisely due to the declining influence of the great books that human beings of patience, courage, good cheer and a whole bunch of determination and wisdom can start to cut through the layers and layers of compounded social ignorance. Kind Regards Herman 36681 From: Date: Mon Sep 20, 2004 4:05pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Intro Visuddhimagga XIV, 101. Hi Nina, I was wondering why sense consciousness is more apparent than javana citta. There is only one sense consciousness but 7 javana cittas. Also, I don't see any difference between kusala and akusala visible object. They both are accompanied by neutral feeling. Javana must be a reaction to accumulations. Larry 36682 From: Herman Hofman Date: Mon Sep 20, 2004 4:38pm Subject: RE: [dsg] "... as parasites a tree." ??? Hi Azita, Need to add "with any effect" to the last line so it becomes Hi Azita, Always good to read your posts. ========== Maybe it is true, what is being stated about wimmin! The Prophet Muhammad seemed to have a few wimmin problems - but then he had far too many wives!!!!!! We have learnt that a female can never become a Buddha, and [to stir the pot a bit further] it is stated somewhere - but can't say where - that it is somewhat better kamma to be born male than female. Whatever! and may we all have lots of patience, courage and good cheer, to put up with whatever we are. ========== What you say is true; we have learnt. It is a fact of life that the great books which folks use as their moral foundations become self-fulfilling prophecies. The status of women is a case in point. Noone need kid themselves that the improving status of women in the Western world is in any way due to the influence of any of the great books. To the contrary. It is precisely due to the declining influence of the great books that human beings of patience, courage, good cheer and a whole bunch of determination and wisdom can start to cut through the layers and layers of compounded social ignorance with any effect. Kind Regards Herman 36683 From: Date: Mon Sep 20, 2004 1:01pm Subject: Re: [dsg] To support or abandon your parents (child, relatives)? - Sutta-Nipâta Hi, Nori - In a message dated 9/20/04 5:15:28 PM Eastern Daylight Time, nori_public@a... writes: > > hi Howard, > > Thats interesting, considering the Buddha himself went forth despite > all the pleading and effort his father gave for him not to go. > ----------------------------------------- Howard: Well, I guess the Buddha-to-be was the one to set the rules! ;-) ----------------------------------------- > > I wonder if this is also included in the vinaya of the tipitaka ? > ------------------------------------------- Howard: Yes, sure. That's what I was referring to when I quoted the Buddhist monastic code. See, for example, the beginning of the article at the following url: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/modern/ariyesako/layguide.html#bhikkhu ------------------------------------------ > > Thanks for the info. > > > peace, > > nori > > ========================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 36684 From: plnao Date: Mon Sep 20, 2004 5:13pm Subject: Re: [dsg] "... as parasites a tree." ??? Hi Herman, and all > Noone need kid themselves that the improving status of women in the > Western world is in any way due to the influence of any of the great > books. To the contrary. It is precisely due to the declining influence > of the great books that human beings of patience, courage, good cheer > and a whole bunch of determination and wisdom can start to cut through > the layers and layers of compounded social ignorance with any effect. Ph: Can't comment on whether this is true or not, but would like to point out that it sounds like the same kind of anti-intellectualism that makes many Western Buddhists (especially Zen) unwilling to tolerate discussion based on explicit references to the Buddha's teaching through sutta references, etc. We don't see that here, and I know Herman appreciates suttas, but I'm sure everybody has come across it in more general forums. Metta, Phil 36685 From: m. nease Date: Mon Sep 20, 2004 5:23pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: 21 questions...[Herman: "how you will see..."] Hi Rob (and Dan) ----- Original Message ----- From: "robmoult" To: Sent: Monday, September 20, 2004 12:43 AM Subject: [dsg] Re: 21 questions...[Herman: "how you will see..."] Hi Rob, ----- Original Message ----- From: "robmoult" To: Sent: Monday, September 20, 2004 12:43 AM Subject: [dsg] Re: 21 questions...[Herman: "how you will see..."] First I want to express my appreciation for your analysis (below). It clearly (I presume!) describes this chain of events, how it would vary depending on accumulations and is also a fine example, I think, of abhidhamma supporting and clarifying the Suttanta. Sticking my neck out a little, I wonder if this suggests to you any implications with regard to pa.ticcasamuppaada (particularly contact-feeling-desire-clinging-becoming) and/or momentary re-becoming (kha.nika punabbhava?). Thanks again and in advance. mike ____________________________________________________________________________ ________________________________ The tree fell because conditions supported this falling (i.e. the roots gave way, there was a wind, etc. but nothing to do with kamma). Now to get technical... There was a tactile object (earth rupa) which arose together with body sensitivity (rupa) when "the tree" (tree is a concept) hit "the leg" (leg is a concept). To paraphrase the Honeyball Sutta (MN18), "Dependent on [body sensitivity] and [tactile object], [body] consciousness arises. The meeting of the three is contact. With contact as a condition there is feeling." There are two types of body consciousness; one is called "akusala vipaka" and the other is "kusala vipaka". Which body consciousness will arise? It depends on the intrinsic nature of the tactile object. If this rupa is inherently undesireable (anittha), then this is a condition for an akusala vipaka body consciousness to arise (note that this citta always arises with painful bodily feeling). In other words, the painful bodily feeling arose because an intrinsically undesireable rupa (the tactile object) arose together with body sensitivity (another rupa). This feeling arose as part of a vipaka citta which carries the label "akusala". When the body consciousness citta accompanied by painful bodily feeling falls away, this is a condition for a new citta arise; a receiving citta accompanied by neutral mental feeling. The receiving citta accompanied by neutral mental feeling is followed by an investigating citta with neutral mental feeling. The falling away of the investigating citta is a condition for the arising of a determining citta with neutral mental feeling. The falling away of the determining citta with neutral mental feeling is a condition for the arising of a javana citta. But which javana citta will arise? This depends on our accumulations. For uninstructed worldlings (that's us), our accumulations are such that a dosa-mula javana citta will almost certainly arise. All dosa-mula cittas arise with unpleasant mental feeling. The sense-door citta process comes to an end and it is then followed by hundreds of thousands of mind-door citta processes that "name", "think about" and "mentally proliferate" (see Honeyball Sutta). In the case of the tree and the leg, most of the javana cittas part of these mind-door processes will be dosa-mula with unpleasant mental feeling. In other words, the painful bodily feeling is over in the duration of a single citta and it is followed by a few cittas accompanied by neutral mental feeling and then by an unbelieveably huge number of cittas accompanied by unpleasant mental feeling. Clearly, pain is almost all in the mind! Now what would happen if a tree were to fall on the leg of an Anagami or an Arahant? There would still be painful bodily feeling during the body consciousness citta. The following receiving, investigating and determining cittas will be with neutral mental feeling (same as for us). However, Anagamis and Arahants no longer has the accumulations to support the arising of dosa so there will be no dosa-mula cittas with unpleasant mental feeling. 36686 From: robmoult Date: Mon Sep 20, 2004 5:50pm Subject: [dsg] Re: 21 questions...[Herman: "how you will see..."] Hi Mike, Nice to hear from you again! --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "m. nease" wrote: > Sticking my neck out a little, I wonder if this suggests to you any > implications with regard to pa.ticcasamuppaada (particularly > contact-feeling-desire-clinging-becoming) and/or momentary re- becoming > (kha.nika punabbhava?). > I have not yet made the connection between the citta process and paticcasamuppada (I'm not saying that it doesn't exist, but I am saying that I haven't seen it yet). As I see it, both describe natural processes at a detailed level. The citta process describes how the mind works with an object while paticcasamuppada describes what binds us to samsara. This binding to samsara can be looked at from the macro level (three cycles / lifetimes) or from a micro level (momentary rebecoming). Studying the citta process in detail has been a great framework for me to better understand the Dhamma. Even this current discussion with Dan has prompted me to examine asynchronous kamma condition in more depth. Mike, your comment has triggered a new line of thinking. I note that the Buddha never discussed the details of the citta process; there are brief allusions to the process in the Patthana and in Buddhaghosa's works, but the details were not laid out until about 1500 years after the Buddha's parinibbana in the Abhidhammatthasangaha. On the other hand, the Buddha put a lot of effort in explaining paticcasamuppada. Clearly, the Buddha placed a lot of importance on understanding paticcasamuppada whereas the citta process was not a very important issue to Him. Mike, thanks to your prompting, I am going to start to explore paticcasamuppada in more depth. I will start by re-posting an earlier message that describes paticcasamuppada by way of Patthana Conditions. Let's see what the feedback is! Metta, Rob M :-) 36687 From: robmoult Date: Mon Sep 20, 2004 5:54pm Subject: Paticca-samuppada by way of Patthana Conditions (Simplified but still long) Hi All, The following was taken from Abhidhamma lecture notes prepared by U Silananda. It has been simplified to exclude: - rupavacara cittas and arupavacara cittas - non-human planes of existence --- 1. Conditioned by ignorance, formations arise. [see Vism XVII 102- 103] Ignorance = moha concomitant with 12 akusala cittas Formations of merit (punnabhisankhara) = cetana in 8 kusala cittas Formations of demerit (apunnabhisankhara) = cetana in 12 akusala cittas Ignorance conditions formations of merit through object condition and decisive support condition Ignorance conditions formations of demerit through: - Object condition - Arammanadhipati (variety of predominance condition) - Arammanupanissaya (variety of decisive support condition) - Decisive support condition - Proximity condition - Contiguity condition - Anantarupanissaya (variety of decisive support condition) - Repetition condition - Absence condition - Disappearance condition - Root condition - Conascence condition - Mutuality condition - Support condition - Association condition - Presence condition - Nondisappearance condition --- 2. Conditioned by formations, consciousness arises [see Vism XVII 177-180] Formations of merit (punnabhisankhara) = cetana in 8 kusala cittas Formations of demerit (apunnabhisankhara) = cetana in 12 akusala cittas Consciousness = 23 vipaka cittas (7 akusala vipaka + 8 kusala vipaka + 8 mahavipaka) At the time of rebirth, cetana in 8 kusala cittas conditions 8 mahavipaka cittas (i.e. as bhavanga) or kusala vipaka investigating citta with indifferent feeling (i.e. bhavanga for disabled humans) through asynchronous kamma condition and natural decisive support condition. During existence, cetana in 8 kusala cittas conditions 8 rootless kusala vipaka cittas through asynchronous kamma condition and natural decisive support condition. During existence, cetana in 12 akusala cittas conditions 7 rootless kusala vipaka cittas through asynchronous kamma condition and natural decisive support condition. --- 3. Conditioned by consciousness, nama, rupa and namarupa arise [see Vism XVII 201] Consciousness = consciousness concomitant with 23 vipaka cittas + consciousness concomitant with 20 kusala / akusala cittas + "all other consciousness" Nama = 52 cetasikas Rupa = 4 primary elements plus depending ones (i.e. all matter) At the time of rebirth and during existence, consciousness concomitant with 23 vipaka cittas conditions cetasikas concomitant with 23 vipaka cittas through: - Conascence condition - Mutuality condition - Support condition - Result condition - Nutriment condition - Faculty condition - Association condition - Presence condition - Nondisappearance condition At the time of rebirth, consciousness concomitant with 23 vipaka cittas conditions rupa through: - Conascence condition - Mutuality condition (only applies to heart-base rupa) - Support condition - Result condition - Nutriment condition - Faculty condition - Association condition - Presence condition - Nondisappearance condition At the time of rebirth and during existence, consciousness concomitant with 20 kusala / akusala cittas conditions kamma- produced rupa through decisive support condition. At the time of rebirth and during existence, other consciousness conditions namarupa through as appropriate (Vism XVII 201 states, "but since the whole contents of the Patthana must be cited in order to show how it acts in detail, we do not undertake that.") --- 4. Conditioned by nama, rupa and namarupa, the sixth base and sixfold base arise [see Vism XVII 209 - 217] Nama = 52 cetasikas Rupa = 4 primaries, 6 base matters, jivita and ahara Six bases = eye-base, ear-, nose-, tongue-, body-, mind-base At time of rebirth, cetasikas concomitant with vipaka cittas with heart-base condition the mind-base through: - Conascence condition - Mutuality condition - Support condition - Result condition - Association condition - Presence condition - Nondisappearance condition At time of rebirth, cetasikas concomitant with vipaka cittas with 4 primaries condition the 5 sense-bases (eye-base, etc.) through: - Conascence condition - Support condition - Result condition - Disassociation condition - Presence condition - Nondisappearance condition During existence, cetasikas concomitant with vipaka cittas condition the vipaka heartbase through: - Conascence condition - Mutuality condition - Support condition - Result condition - Association condition - Presence condition - Nondisappearance condition During existence, cetasikas concomitant with non-vipaka cittas condition the non-vipaka heartbase through: - Conascence condition - Mutuality condition - Support condition - Association condition - Presence condition - Nondisappearance condition During existence, cetasikas concomitant with sense vipaka cittas (eye, ear, etc) condition the 5 sense-bases (eye-base, etc.) through: - Postnascence condition - Mutuality condition - Disassociation condition - Presence condition - Nondisappearance condition During existence, cetasikas concomitant with non-vipaka cittas condition the 5 sense-bases (eye-base, etc.) through: - Postnascence condition - Mutuality condition - Disassociation condition - Presence condition - Nondisappearance condition At time of rebirth, the heart-base conditions the mind-base through: - Conascence condition - Mutuality condition - Support condition - Disassociation condition - Presence condition - Nondisappearance condition At time of rebirth and during existence, the 4 primaries condition the 5 sense-bases (eye-base, etc.) through: - Conascence condition - Support condition - Presence condition - Nondisappearance condition At time of rebirth and during existence, jivita conditions the 5 sense-bases (eye-base, etc.) through: - Faculty condition - Presence condition - Nondisappearance condition During existence, ahara conditions the 5 sense-bases (eye-base, etc.) through: - Nutriment condition - Presence condition - Nondisappearance condition During existence, the 5 sense-bases (eye-base, etc.) condition mind- base associated with eye-consciousness, etc. through: - Support condition - Prenascence condition - Faculty condition - Disassociation condition - Presence condition - Nondisappearance condition During existence, the heart base conditions other mind-base through: - Support condition - Prenascence condition - Disassociation condition - Presence condition - Nondisappearance condition At time of rebirth, the 52 cetasikas and heartp-base (namarupa) conditions the mindbase through: - Conascence condition - Mutuality condition - Support condition - Result condition - Association condition - Disassociation condition - Presence condition - Nondisappearance condition --- 5. Conditioned by sixth base and sixfold base, contact arises [See Vism XVII 227] Six bases = eye-base, ear-, nose-, tongue-, body-, mind-base; or visible-data base, sound base, odour-, flavour-, tangible-data base, dhamma base Contact = eye-contact, ear-, nose-, tongue-, body-, mind contact; eye-contact = phassa concomitant with 2 eye-consciousness cittas, ear-contact = phassa concomitant with 2 ear-consciousness cittas, etc., mind-contact = phassa concomitant with 13 vipaka cittas (2 akusala vipaka + 3 kusala vipaka + 8 mahavipaka) The 5 sense-bases (eye-base, etc.) condition the 5 sense-contacts (eye-contact, etc.) through: - Support condition - Prenascence condition - Faculty condition - Disassociation condition - Presence condition - Nondisappearance condition Vipaka mind-base conditions vipaka mind contact through: - Conascence condition - Mutuality condition - Support condition - Result condition - Nutriment condition - Faculty condition - Association condition - Presence condition - Nondisappearance condition Visible-data base (sound base, etc.) conditions eye-contact (ear- contact, etc.) through: - Object condition - Prenascence condition - Presence condition - Nondisappearance condition At the present moment, visible-data base (sound base, etc.) conditions mind contact through: - Object condition - Prenascence condition - Presence condition - Nondisappearance condition Dhamma base conditions mind contact in the past and future through object condition only. --- 6. Conditioned by contact, feeling arises. [See Vism XVII 231 - 232] Contact = eye-contact, ear-, nose-, tongue-, body-, mind contact; eye-contact = phassa concomitant with 2 eye-consciousness cittas, ear-contact = phassa concomitant with 2 ear-sonsciousness cittas, etc., mind-contact = phassa concomitant with 13 vipaka cittas (2 akusala vipaka + 3 kusala vipaka + 8 mahavipaka) Feeling = feeling born of eye contact, etc.; vedana concomitant with the 23 vipaka cittas (same set of cittas for which phassa is concomitant) Eye-contact (ear-contact, etc.) conditions vedana dependent on eye- base (ear-base, etc.) through: - Conascence condition - Mutuality condition - Support condition - Result condition - Nutriment condition - Association condition - Presence condition - Nondisappearance condition Eye-contact (ear-contact, etc.) conditions vedana concomitant with receiving, investigating and registration cittas through natural decisive support condition. Mind contact conditions vedana concomitant with registration cittas through: - Conascence condition - Mutuality condition - Support condition - Result condition - Nutriment condition - Association condition - Presence condition - Nondisappearance condition Mind contact conditions vedana concomitant with patisandhi, bhavanga and cuti cittas through: - Conascence condition - Mutuality condition - Support condition - Result condition - Nutriment condition - Association condition - Presence condition - Nondisappearance condition Mind contact concomitant with mind door conditions vendana concomitant with registration cittas through natural decisive support condition. --- 7. Conditioned by feeling, craving arises. [See Vism XVII 237-238] Feeling = vipaka sukha vedana or vipaka sukha, dukkha and upekkha vedana, or non-vipaka vedana Craving = Craving for sensuous data (visible-data, sound, odour, flavour, tangible-data, dhamma-data) All types of feeling (vipaka sukha vedana, vipaka sukha, dukkha and upekkha vedana, non-vipaka vedana) condition craving through natural decisive support condition. --- 8. Conditioned by craving, clinging arises. [See Vism XVII 248] Craving = Craving for sensuous data (visible-data, sound, odour, flavour, tangible-data, dhamma-data) Clinging = sense desire clinging, false-view clinging, rite-and- ritual clinging, self-clinging (varieties of lobha and ditthi) Craving conditions the arising of sense-desire clinging through natural decisive support condition. Craving conditions the arising of false-view clinging, rite-and- ritual clinging and self-clinging through: - Root condition - Conascence condition - Mutuality condition - Support condition - Natural decisive support condition (without conascence condition) - Association condition - Presence condition - Nondisappearance condition --- 9. Conditioned by clinging, becoming arises. [See Vism XVII 269] Clinging = sense desire clinging, false-view clinging, rite-and- ritual clinging, self-clinging (varieties of lobha and ditthi) Becoming (bhava) = kamma process (kamma-bhava) + rebirth process (upapatti-bhava) Kamma process (kamma-bhava) = cetana and lobha, etc. concomitant with it Rebirth process (upapatti-bhava) = vipaka aggregates and kammaja-rupa Clinging conditions the arising of becoming through support condition. --- 10. Conditioned by becoming, birth arises. Becoming = kamma process (kamma-bhava) only, not rebirth process (upapatti-bhava) --- 11. Conditioned by birth; aging, death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief and despair arises. [See Vism XVII 270] Kamma process (kamma-bhava) conditions the arising of birth through kamma and support condition. Birth conditions the arising of aging, death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief and despair through support condition. Metta, Rob M :-) 36688 From: Antony Woods Date: Mon Sep 20, 2004 6:46pm Subject: most moving Buddha quote Dear Sarah and DSG, Veneration to the Most Exalted, the Purified, the Supremely Enlightened Buddha Buddha said: "And what is the taking on of a practice that is painful in the present but yields happiness in the future? There is the case of a person who is normally strongly passionate by nature and frequently experiences pain & grief born of passion; a person who is normally strongly aversive by nature and frequently experiences pain & grief born of aversion; a person who is normally strongly deluded by nature and frequently experiences pain & grief born of delusion. Even though touched with pain & grief, weeping with tearful face, he lives the holy life that is utterly perfect, surpassingly pure. With the break-up of the body, after death, he reappears in the good bourn, the heavenly world. This is called the taking on of a practice that is painful in the present but yields happiness in the future. Translation by Thanissaro Bhikkhu adapted by Antony Woods http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/majjhima/mn045.html Comment: I find this one of the most moving paragraphs in the Pali Canon. Maybe I identify with this monk as a martyr who is missing out on having a good time and grieving in such a way that is healthy and beneficial. Normally people are supposed to be ashamed of their suffering. Comments welcome. Thanks / Antony. 36689 From: Antony Woods Date: Mon Sep 20, 2004 7:00pm Subject: Re: The Perfect Gift Dear Sarah, Rob M and all, From "The Gift of Life" by Ven. Dr. Sobhita Thero "There are three ways in the practice of dana: 1. Danaparami - This is the commonly understood practice of the giving of one's wealth, food and labour. 2. Dana upa parami - This is a more vigorous form of giving, such as the donation of one's blood, body parts or organs for the needy. 3. Dana paramattha parami - This is the highest form of giving in which one sacrifices one's life for the sake of others. http://www.4ui.com/eart/159eart1.htm Comment: Don't read the rest of the article! metta / Antony. 36690 From: m. nease Date: Mon Sep 20, 2004 7:44pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: 21 questions...[Herman: "how you will see..."] Hi Rob, ----- Original Message ----- From: "robmoult" To: Sent: Monday, September 20, 2004 5:50 PM Subject: [dsg] Re: 21 questions...[Herman: "how you will see..."] > Nice to hear from you again! My pleasure--I skip a lot of your posts (or skim at best) as they tend to be over my head. Glad to find one pared down to my size for a change...! > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "m. nease" > wrote: > > Sticking my neck out a little, I wonder if this suggests to you any > > implications with regard to pa.ticcasamuppaada (particularly > > contact-feeling-desire-clinging-becoming) and/or momentary re- > becoming > > (kha.nika punabbhava?). > > I have not yet made the connection between the citta process and > paticcasamuppada (I'm not saying that it doesn't exist, but I am > saying that I haven't seen it yet). The links I've separated out (contact-feeling-desire-clinging-becoming) seem to me very suggestive of everyday, momentary experience--hence my question. > As I see it, both describe natural processes at a detailed level. > The citta process describes how the mind works with an object while > paticcasamuppada describes what binds us to samsara. These are usually treated as two different subjects--I think they may be more or less identical. The latter seems always to be taken to pertain to the end of 'this life' and the beginning of 'the next life'. I don't dispute this but, if 'this life' and 'the next life' are concepts (and I think they are), then this opens a big door with regard to the implications of pa.ticcasamuppaada to the present moment. I assume (presume?) you would agree that sa.msaara is spinning along with 'us' at every moment? In other words, it doesn't seem to me that the wheel only turns at the beginnings and endings of conventional lifetimes. > This binding to samsara can be looked at from the macro level (three > cycles / lifetimes) or from a micro level (momentary rebecoming). Right-- > Studying the citta process in detail has been a great framework for > me to better understand the Dhamma. Even this current discussion > with Dan has prompted me to examine asynchronous kamma condition in > more depth. Me too--the whole exchange has been interesting. > Mike, your comment has triggered a new line of thinking. > > I note that the Buddha never discussed the details of the citta > process; there are brief allusions to the process in the Patthana > and in Buddhaghosa's works, but the details were not laid out until > about 1500 years after the Buddha's parinibbana in the > Abhidhammatthasangaha. > > On the other hand, the Buddha put a lot of effort in explaining > paticcasamuppada. > Clearly, the Buddha placed a lot of importance on > understanding paticcasamuppada Clearly! The Buddha said that 'who sees the Dhamma sees the Tathagata; Sariputta, whom the Buddha called the General of the Dhamma, said (quoting the Buddha in Maha-hatthipadopama Sutta and elsewhere, I think) "Now, the Blessed One has said, "Whoever sees dependent co-arising sees the Dhamma; whoever sees the Dhamma sees dependent co-arising."* > whereas the citta process was not a > very important issue to Him. Unless this understanding was an essential part of his penetration of pa.ticcasamuppaada--If true, then maybe he left it to his chief disciple, known for understanding, to pass it along to those able to comprehend it. > Mike, thanks to your prompting, I am going to start to explore > paticcasamuppada in more depth. I will start by re-posting an > earlier message that describes paticcasamuppada by way of Patthana > Conditions. I tried reading it--back to the children's table for me. I'll be eavesdropping, though. > Let's see what the feedback is! Look forward to it--thanks again, Rob. mike 36691 From: Herman Hofman Date: Mon Sep 20, 2004 8:36pm Subject: RE: [dsg] "... as parasites a tree." ??? Hi Phil, Thanks for your comments. ======================== > Noone need kid themselves that the improving status of women in the > Western world is in any way due to the influence of any of the great > books. To the contrary. It is precisely due to the declining influence > of the great books that human beings of patience, courage, good cheer > and a whole bunch of determination and wisdom can start to cut through > the layers and layers of compounded social ignorance with any effect. Ph: Can't comment on whether this is true or not, but would like to point out that it sounds like the same kind of anti-intellectualism that makes many Western Buddhists (especially Zen) unwilling to tolerate discussion based on explicit references to the Buddha's teaching through sutta references, etc. We don't see that here, and I know Herman appreciates suttas, but I'm sure everybody has come across it in more general forums. ========================= There is not an ounce of life in the logjam of tradition, Phil, and that is my considered opinion :-). You have represented me well, though, I do appreciate the suttas, especially when I see the truth in them (the relationship between what is put forward in them and how reality seems to unfold). But I never feel the obligation to just uphold the "tradition", or to swallow some of the utter tripe that is passed of as wisdom by some of the hangers-on of the tradition. To be honest, I cannot say I have ever seen any willingness on your behalf to begin to contemplate the very uncontroversial notion that most of what you take as Gospel has nothing to do with the Buddha's teaching. I am very happy to discuss just about anything, as you know, but never on the basis that because a statement is in the canon it must be true and real. There is no difference, in effect, between the Holy See of Rome and the Holy See of Ceylon. Who is calling who what here? :-) Kind Regards Herman 36692 From: kenhowardau Date: Mon Sep 20, 2004 10:05pm Subject: [dsg] Re: function, manifestation, etc. Dear Nina, Howard and Ken O, Thank you for your helpful comments. I tend to get locked into my own preferred ways of understanding dhammas, and it's not always easy to hear what other people are trying to tell me. At least I was partly right: we all agree that our conventional understandings of attachment, anger and unpleasant feeling etc., stem from our experiences of lobha, dosa, domanassa and other cetasikas. That is to say, citta has taken those cetasikas as object (arammana) on various occasions. I took this a step further and assumed that our concepts of `experiencer' and `experiencing' must also have had their origins in paramattha dhammas. I assumed citta had alternative ways of cognising a nama - sometimes seeing it as the "expereincer" (the seer, the hearer, the liker, the disliker, . . ) , and sometimes seeing it simply as the experiencing (seeing, hearing, liking, disliking). That was a wrong assumption. I gather now it is always the latter way. The former belongs purely to intellectual (conceptual) understanding. Even though I liked my old theory, I can live with this new one. If it's in the texts, that's all I need to know. :-) At the risk of confusing the issue, can I ask; is it different when there is panna? When citta, for example, is directly understood as nama (as distinct from rupa), is it still being experienced as 'seeing' 'hearing' etc., or is it being experienced as, "the dhamma that sees?" Kind regards, Ken H 36693 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Sep 20, 2004 10:12pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Eight attainments (attha samaapattiyo) Dear Christine and Rob K, Christine, thank you very much. I have the Co in Pali and in Thai. op 19-09-2004 22:23 schreef christine_forsyth op cforsyth1@b...: This sutta lists the five detrimental things that lead to the decay and disappearance of the true Dhamma. The fifth detrimental thing is that the bhikkhus, the bhikkhunis, the male lay followers, and the female lay followers dwell without reverence and deference towards concentration. Bhikkhu Bodhi explains: "Spk: One dwells without reverence for concentration when one does not attain the eight attainments (attha samaapattiyo) or make any effort to attain them". N: Sutta: The reasons are given for the disappearance of the true Dhamma.When bhikkhus, bhikkhuunis, laymen and laywomen live in disrespect for the Teacher, the Dhamma, the Sangha, the training, and with regard to concentration, samaadhi. B.B. gave a note that this, according to the Co refers to the eight samaapatti (ruupajhaana and aruupajhaana). When we read just this note we may think that also laypeople should make an effort for jhaana. But we should look at the context of this passage of the Co. The Co states that when the practice is accomplished, the realisation (pativedha) will be accomplished. But disrespect leads to the decay of the True dhamma. The Co then elaborates on disrespectful conduct of bhikkhus. A bhikhu carries an umbrella when visiting a stupa, he wears shoes and looks somewhere else. He does not have respect for the Teacher. A bhikkhu is disrespectful when he should listen to Dhamma. He ssleeps while he sits, or he chats and is distracted. He is disrespectful to the Dhamma. Irreverence to the Sangha: the bhikkhu goes to an Elder and sits down without greeting. His behaviour is careless and disrespectful. He does not accept the exhortation of elderly bhikkhus. N: note that here the Co speaks about the bhikkhu's conduct, about his life as a bhikkhu. Co:Irreverence to the threefold training (sikkhaa: siila, samaadhi and paññaa): and no development of the eight attainments, no effort for these. N: Note: this passage comes straight after the passage about the bhikkhu's conduct. I do not see that this implies that all laypeople have to make an effort for jhana. In the sutta it is said: samaadhi, not jhaana. I shall say more about samaadhi. This is an opportunity to go into another text: who is concentrated sees things as they really are (In Vis. and the Transcendental Dependent Arising, Upanisaa Sutta.) This is often quoted. Samaadhi is the proximate cause of seeing things as they are. Rob K wrote about this: op 10-09-2004 03:28 schreef rjkjp1 op rjkjp1@y...: > Samma-samadhi is a most necessary ingredient of the eighfactored > path but we must know that it can only arise when there is > samma-ditthi. You can ask Nina too, but I think I am right in saying > that 'proximate cause' doesn't always mean in time sequence. The > Patthana gives conditions that are co-nascent arisng at the same > time. Some teachers don't study Abhidhamma and may tend to > interpret 'proximate' as always meaning prior. N: Not always prior, we have to study the context. In the Upanisaa Sutta, samaadhi is the supporting condition for ñaa.nadassana. Seeing things as they are (yathaabhuuta). This sutta deals with the development of jhana and then, with jhana as foundation, with the development of vipassana. Samaadhi here is not without paññaa, because it is bhaavana, mental development. There are many degrees of samaadhi. Those who do not develop jhaana also need samaadhi when they listen to the Dhamma, study and consider it. In fact, the Dhamma is one of the Recollections, meditation subjects of Samatha. When laypeople behave as the bhikkhu in the Sutta about the Counterfeit Dhamma, they do not consider the dhamma properly, their thoughts are wandering. When there is an opportunity to listen, but one is chatting and thinking of other things, one does not listen and consider with full attention, there is no samaadhi and no understanding. When one listens and considers the Dhamma with full attention, with concentration and understanding, understanding can grow and develop into insight knowledge that sees things as they really are. Moreover, as insight develops in stages, also momentary concentration, khanika samaadhi will develop due to conditions. Nina. 36694 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Sep 20, 2004 10:12pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Toll Booth Operators and the Brahmaviharas Dear Rob M, When considering the brahmaviharas, the characteristic etc, concerns only one's own citta. We do not think of the effect op 20-09-2004 10:44 schreef robmoult op rob.moult@j...: > - Pleasant mental feeling arising with akusala cittas is > characterized as inducing excitement whereas pleasant mental feeling > arising with kusala cittas is characterized as inducing calm; the > type of smiles I get back are of the "calm" type, not of > the "excited" type N: The question here is: with oneself. We do not mind about the smiles we get back, whether they are excited or calm. We cannot correct the others. R: my > smile certainly prompted the toll booth operator's reaction > - mudita can be considered as succeeding when it makes boredom > subside and failing when it produces merriment (excitement) > > In summary, I feel the odds are extremely good that mudita is > arising in the mind of the toll booth operator (but of course, I > cannot be 100% sure). N: When we do not mind too much about others' reactions we can be more detached, have more equanimity. I am sure you do not think: Oh, oh, how will she/he react to me, but a reader may think that you do while reading the above. Say someone does not like us, but we have metta to him, that is important, the metta citta. What is the citta like. At the same time, one can in this way help others more.Some people may find this a paradox. I find. as Phil does, eqaunimity important for all brahmaviharas, otherwise I get too involved with people's thoughts, with their lives. I get touchy and vulnerable. Nina. P.S. Looking at kamma. Anyway, hard to pinpoint. If we try, it can lead to confusion. 36695 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Sep 20, 2004 10:12pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Japanese temples. Hello Phil, another text: T.A. (Co to the Abhidhammattha Sangaha, p. 207): it is in the context of rebirth-consciousness, but it is for all cittas: (Dhp 1,2.) op 20-09-2004 04:31 schreef plnao op plnao@j...: > > Thanks also for your feedback about dhammapda 1:1 and cittas. Very helpful. 36696 From: Date: Mon Sep 20, 2004 7:24pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: function, manifestation, etc. Hi, Ken (and Nina) - In a message dated 9/21/04 1:07:26 AM Eastern Daylight Time, kenhowardau@y... writes: > Dear Nina, Howard and Ken O, > > Thank you for your helpful comments. I tend to get locked into my > own preferred ways of understanding dhammas, and it's not always > easy to hear what other people are trying to tell me. > > At least I was partly right: we all agree that our conventional > understandings of attachment, anger and unpleasant feeling etc., > stem from our experiences of lobha, dosa, domanassa and other > cetasikas. That is to say, citta has taken those cetasikas as object > (arammana) on various occasions. > > I took this a step further and assumed that our concepts > of `experiencer' and `experiencing' must also have had their origins > in paramattha dhammas. I assumed citta had alternative ways of > cognising a nama - sometimes seeing it as the "expereincer" (the > seer, the hearer, the liker, the disliker, . . ) , and sometimes > seeing it simply as the experiencing (seeing, hearing, liking, > disliking). > > That was a wrong assumption. I gather now it is always the latter > way. The former belongs purely to intellectual (conceptual) > understanding. Even though I liked my old theory, I can live with > this new one. If it's in the texts, that's all I need to know. :-) > > At the risk of confusing the issue, can I ask; is it different when > there is panna? When citta, for example, is directly understood as > nama (as distinct from rupa), is it still being experienced > as 'seeing' 'hearing' etc., or is it being experienced as, "the > dhamma that sees?" > > Kind regards, > Ken H > ============================= As I see it, we human beings, and probably sentient beings in general, are, in reality, regularly aware of being aware, not as an experiencer grasping an act of experiencing as an object, however, but nonreflectively. Moreover, I believe that, in reality, whenever there is experiencing of anything, what that amounts to is merely the presence of content, and not a subject grasping an object. However, by in large - that is to say, typically - the way experiencing actually works is *not* the way it seems! We *seem* to experience as an experiencer grasping an experienced thing, a "true subject" grasping a "true object". That is actually the norm! But it is illusion, a mere seeming. It is the ignorance-conditioned, false "look" to experiencing that is standard for the non-arahant, but decreasingly so, I believe, for higher and higher stages of ariyahood. In recent posts of Nina's and mine, there seems to have been a rapprochement of view. It may well be so that our understandings do indeed touch at several points. I'm just not certain exactly at how many points or exactly which ones. I'm not entirely certain that there may not be some mutual misunderstanding of our positions, and that perhaps we are further apart that it seems. But I must say that I do find the apparent agreement quite pleasant, and so I will enjoy it while I can! ;-) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 36697 From: plnao Date: Tue Sep 21, 2004 2:44am Subject: Re: [dsg] "... as parasites a tree." ??? Hi Herman, and all. Points well taken. I really shouldn't have interjected in this thread, so let's leave it at that, if that's ok with you. And bring it back to the issue. While I'm at it, I'll add a note of appreciation for Matt's post. I think too much attention to historical matters and controversies can distract us from the matter at hand. Investigating realities here and now. Metta, Phil 36698 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Sep 21, 2004 2:51am Subject: Re: [dsg] most moving Buddha quote Dear Antony & Phil, Antony’s post with the helpful quote is very timely as it neatly addresses some comments I was planning to make in reply to a great post of Phil’s (on the topic of eradicating defilements #36465). --- Antony Woods wrote: <...> >Even though touched with pain & grief, > weeping with tearful face, he lives the holy life that is > utterly perfect, surpassingly pure. With the break-up of the body, after death, he reappears in the good bourn, the heavenly world. > This is called the taking on of a practice that is painful in the > present but yields happiness in the future. > > Translation by Thanissaro Bhikkhu adapted by Antony Woods > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/majjhima/mn045.html > A: > Comment: I find this one of the most moving paragraphs in the Pali Canon. .... S: This is followed by the example of the one who doesn’t have strong lust etc. I think the point is that what is of most importance is the living of the ‘holy life’, in other words, the development of wisdom which understands dhammas as they are at this very moment -- conditioned, unalterable, impermanent, unsatisfactory and not-self. Not only do they change from life to life, but from moment to moment. We have no idea what our kamma will produce or what accumulated tendencies will arise, but satipatthana can be developed at any moment, regardless of the propensity for lust or aversion. .... A: > Maybe I identify with this monk as a martyr who is missing out on having > a good time and grieving in such a way that is healthy and beneficial. > Normally people are supposed to be ashamed of their suffering. ... S: I don’t think any ‘grieving’ is ever ‘healthy and beneficial’ as it’s always rooted in dosa (aversion) and follows as a result of the passion, aversion and delusion. But as you suggest, being ‘ashamed’ as we usually use this word is useless as it just adds more aversion as Phil pointed out before. When there is understanding, there is acceptance and detachment and no idea of these being ‘my’ states. If we have an idea of any kind of martyrdom or torment as being noble in any way, I think we’re in danger of slipping into the second group who practice ‘torment’ and ascetic practices whicharen’t healthy in any way. Phil referred to manifestations of strong akusala and how these can help one to reflect on the teachings and I agree with this. If there is a beginning of understanding of the dhammas in our life and the unpredictability of the arising of them, there can be awareness and wise reflection when even these very unwelcome visitors make their appearance. I mentioned that I find suttas or Jataka tales which highlight extreme perversions rather helpful for reflection. For one thing, we see that these are far more common than we might think and ‘our’ defilements are not anything special. Our latent tendencies are such that almost anything is possible under the ‘right’ conditions whilst we’re still beginners on the path (and Phil, a few years or decades or even lifetimes with just a very little sati and panna arising when there are favourable conditions are really drops in the ocean of samsara;-)). Phil, I also wished to add that I think it’s natural that when we hear, consider and begin to appreciate the great value of the teachings on anatta, that we continue to look for loop-holes such as looking to perform good deeds which will bring good results or try to organise our lives in a way to avoid excesses with a deep-rooted idea that we really do have some control and so on. In discussions on performing merit including dana, as we’ve both discussed, the motives and cittas tend to be very mixed. When we’re so concerned to be the one performing dana, at times isn’t this a clinging to self, clinging to being the kind person who receives good results? These are just more of my wet blanket comments (and babble;-)) and I’d be grateful for your fabric softening comments for the following one in particular. Antony, you kindly pointed me to some very interesting posts you’d written elsewhere. I just read two or three of the most recent ones only as this list is so busy already. I have no doubt at all about your wonderful accumulations for generosity and they’re a great example for us all. Thank you for sharing these again. I particularly appreciated your honesty in a message I read when you said, ‘I am deluded in thinking that the quality of making merit equates with ME feeling good rather than focusing on the benefit of others’. As Phil has commented before here, we cannot perform all the kind acts we’d like because of financial constraints and because we have to consider family views and concerns. I think this is the right attitude. If one’s deeds are at the expense of family unhappiness or if they lead to secrecy or a lack of respect for the different views of others, then we need to pause and reflect, I think. We can find other ways to help or show kindness that are acceptable to those around us and which don’t involve secrecy or possible dismay. They don’t need to cost money and may just be the appreciation of others’ kind deeds, for example. If we are performing good deeds in order to be a good person, there is no development of understanding with detachment from the presently arising states as you hinted at so well in your ME comment. Phil, back to your post #36465. I disagree with the comments which suggest there cannot be ‘even the smallest steps’ in the development of wisdom whilst ‘very crude defilements’ are still apparent. When you say ‘we have to clean out the gross matter first’ and that you think ‘practices that might seem self-driven on the surface can do that’ (such as the fabric-softening ones), I think this is an example of looking for one of those loop-holes or a lack of confidence in the real power of panna and sati to perform their tasks. It’s back to the idea of a ‘self’ doing a clean-up first, ready for some anatta understanding when the place has been tidied up, isn’t it? We follow our own ways, whether fabric-softening ones or any other kinds, but we need to remember that any of these ways are conditioned and anatta. Even when we think ‘we have to clean out....first’, it’s conditioned thinking that thinks like this which can be known when it arises. I understand your concern about truly crude defilements arising and of course right understanding doesn’t mean ‘go to the nightclub and just have sati’. We may resolve to stay away and go in any case or there may be cruder defilements arising at home than at the night-club. So it still comes back to the present moment and understanding dhammas rather than any wrong idea of a self that can choose and select what dhamma will arise at any moment. As you found, we can learn good lessons from shocking displays of kilesa at work and it’s helpful to be reminded again of what beginners we are. It’s panna with accompanying sobhana cetasikas like hiri and ottappa that will know these states for what they are when they appear. Truly, Phil, I certainly speak for myself here as well when it comes to experience of seeing lots of rot under the mildest of provocations. However, I also have a lot of confidence that the house only begins to really come clean with the development of vipassana. Just one moment of wisdom (at even a beginning level) is like a clean sweep. Anything else is a temporary, surface spot-clean in comparison. Like you, I forget much or most of what I read or hear, but there is no escaping the fact that life only exists in a moment, one world at a time. What’s gone has gone and there can be another beginning of awareness right now if we’ve heard and considered about the present dhammas. If there is awareness of seeing, for example, there is no ‘Phil’, ‘Antony’, ‘Sarah’, ‘strong lust or aversion’. Just ‘seeing’. Like you, I feel a lot of gratitude for having the opportunity to hear about the Truths taught by the Tathagata. So let me sign off with part of another wonderful sutta Antony quoted which reminds us that even the Tathagata is a concept. Metta, Sarah Antony:<....> "How do you construe this, Anuradha: Do you regard the Tathagata as being in form?... Elsewhere than form?... In feeling?... Elsewhere than feeling?... In perception?... Elsewhere than perception?... In fabrications?... Elsewhere than fabrications?... In consciousness?... Elsewhere than consciousness?" "No, lord." "How do you construe this: Do you regard the Tathagata as form-feeling-perception-fabrications-consciousness?" "No, lord." "Do you regard the Tathagata as that which is without form, without feeling, without perception, without fabrications, without consciousness?" "No, lord." "And so, Anuradha -- when you can't pin down the Tathagata as a truth or reality even in the present life -- is it proper for you to declare, 'Friends, the Tathagata -- the supreme man, the superlative man, attainer of the superlative attainment -- being described, is described otherwise than with these four positions: The Tathagata exists after death, does not exist after death, both does & does not exist after death, neither exists nor does not exist after death'?" "No, lord." "Very good, Anuradha. Very good. Both formerly & now, it is only stress that I describe, and the cessation of stress." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn22-086.html ========================== 36699 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Sep 21, 2004 3:00am Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner16-Contact /Phassa(b) Dear Friends, Cetasikas by Nina van Gorkom. http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch.1, Contact (Phassa)contd] ***** The universals arise with every citta and thus they arise with all the cittas of the four jatis: with akusala citta, kusala citta, vipakacitta and kiriyacitta. They arise with all cittas in all planes of existence where there is nama: with the cittas of the woeful planes, in the human being plane, in the deva planes, in the rupa-brahma-planes, except the asanna-satta plane (the plane where there is only rupa not nama) (See my Abhidhamma in Daily Life, Chapter 20) and in the arupa-brahma planes. They arise with all cittas of all planes of consciousness: with kamavacara-cittas (sensuous plane of citta), with rupavacara cittas (Plane of rupa-jhanacittas), arupavacara cittas (plane of arupa-jhanacittas) and with lokuttara cittas (cittas which experience nibbana) (Ibidem, Chapter 19) Contact, in Pali: phassa, is mentioned first among the universals. Phassa arises together with every citta; it "contacts" the object so that citta can experience it. When seeing experiences visible object, phassa which accompanies seeing-consciousness also experiences visible object but it performs its own function. At that moment phassa "contacts" visible object and conditions seeing-consciousness to see. The Atthasalini (Expositor, Part IV, chapter I, 108) states about contact: Contact means "it touches" It has touching as its salient characteristic, impact as its function, "coinciding" (of the physical base, object and consciousness) as its manifestation, and the object which has entered the avenue (of awareness) as proximate cause . The Visuddhimagga (Path of Purification XIV, 134) gives a similar definition. ***** [Contact (Phassa) to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 36700 From: Herman Hofman Date: Tue Sep 21, 2004 3:25am Subject: RE: [dsg] "... as parasites a tree." ??? Hi Phil, Thank you for your post. I sincerely hope you don't mind me replying to your posts. I certainly have no problems with your posts. Investigating realities here and now sounds the go to me, too. This would certainly include awareness of whether I am using women as cheaper labour-saving devices or as objects for my own sexual gratification, or whether I judge anything women do or say on the basis that it comes from a woman, not on the merit of the action. While matters of social justice may seem grossly conceptual, I do not think one can proceed with any success to waking up to the subtler tricks of the mind without first recognizing the gross (and baseless) foundations on which we predicate our existences. Just my three pennies, of course Kind Regards Herman ======== Points well taken. I really shouldn't have interjected in this thread, so let's leave it at that, if that's ok with you. And bring it back to the issue. While I'm at it, I'll add a note of appreciation for Matt's post. I think too much attention to historical matters and controversies can distract us from the matter at hand. Investigating realities here and now. Metta, Phil 36701 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Sep 21, 2004 3:27am Subject: Re: [dsg] Predicting the future Hi Herman, --- Herman Hofman wrote: > I have acquired the habit of assuming that all canonical predictions of > the future originate from sources that haven't quite understood the > teachings of the Buddha. > > I would be happy to receive any feedback on this, no matter how wrong I > turn out to be :-) ... S: I don't think we can ever over-estimate the omniscient knowledge of the Buddha , including his knowledge of any conditions or accumulations he put his mind to. See 'omniscience' in U.P. perhaps. Obviously those who don't accept the authenticity of the Kathavathu, will not accept the commentary to it either;-) Anytime I say 'the Buddha said...' or 'the Buddha predicted...', pls just read it as: 'Sarah says that according to her very limited understanding of what she reads in the xyz text, which has been included in the accepted and approved Theravada teachings at various Councils and is included in the scope of this group's description on the homepage, the Buddha said.......Of course she may be quite wrong and deluded and is not claiming to be any kind of expert or authority or enlightened being';-). Herman, I think your post to AL, #36432 (and one or two earlier ones) were very compassionate and understanding. Also Phil's #36434. As RobM mentioned recently, I also feel very fortunate to read so many truly kind and caring messages from true friends every day and being right or wrong in any thread is not the issue as you hint at above. Metta, Sarah ======= 36702 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Sep 21, 2004 3:49am Subject: Re: [dsg] To support or abandon your parents (child, relatives)? - Sutta-Nipâta Hi Bill, Howard and Nori, --- Bill Saint-Onge wrote: > Hello All, > > It seems that I read somewhere that a part of the Thai ordination > proceedure was the bhikku-to-be confirming that both parents had given > permission for him to go forth. I'm not sure if that's from suttas, or > vinaya, or thai custom--or even that it's correct information :) .... S: One of the rules for ordination.It's in the Vinaya I'm sure. Howard, I agree with your other points, but I think that for a bhikkhu to continue supporting parents such as from money in trust would be a clear breach of the rules with regard to giving up all home-life requisites and ties. Permission and agreement of parents I see as being like a very great example of dana which I just mentioned to Antony with similar, but greater considerations for family members and so on. If it's not appropriate in this lifetime, it needn't been any hindrance at all to the development of satipatthana. Nori, thx for introducing some good threads. Hope you saw my response on the K.Milinda one. Metta, Sarah ? p.s Howard, you wrote a good comment on visible object to Phil's qu mark and also to Azita (and me) on anatta. Lots of agreement at the moment as you say. On vinnana, we're still way off in terms of agreement, however. You refer to it in D.O. as 'self-oriented knowing: the illusory sense of a subject encountering an object'. Seeing consciousness is an example of vinnana. Seeing just sees, it isn't self-oriented or illusory or anything else. Oops, wasn't intending to step into controversy here...like others, with the list being so busy, I'm trying to keep my toes dry, but accumulations rule yet again.... 36703 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Sep 21, 2004 4:03am Subject: Re: [dsg] 'Cetasikas' study corner14-Introduction(k) HI Phil, (I'm behind with some reading, so ignore this if someone else has already replied) --- plnao wrote: > I've been wondering. How do cittas and cetasikas relate to Dhammapada > 1:1? > In the one translation > I have on hand at the moment (Acharya Buddharakkhita) it is "mind > precedes > all mental states. Mind > is their chief; they are all mind wrought. If with an impure mind a > person > speaks or acts suffering > follows him like the wheel that follows the foot of the ox." .... S: The following was included in a longer quote on citta in a recent message I sent to Dan, taken from the commentary to Abhidammattha Sangaha or (T.A.) as Nina refers to it: “That which exists in the mind (cetasi) by occurring in dependence upon it is mentality (cetasika). For it is unable to take an object without consciousness; in the absence of consciousness there is no arising of any mentality at all. But consciousness does occur with an object in the absence of certain mentalities; so mentality is said to occur in dependence upon consciousness. Therefore the Blessed One has said: ‘Dhammas have mind as their forerunner.’ (Dhp 1) This refutes erroneous opinions such as that happiness, etc., are permanent and exist in the absence of consciousness. (cf Vism 511, ChXV1, 85) Alternatively mentality is that which is combined with consciousness.” ***** P: > When I looked at the pali for this, there were no words resembling > citta > or cetasika (I guess these terms > aren't used in the suttas?) but the above sounds similar to the idea of > citta being the king and cetasika being the...what was it...retinue? > followers? .... S: Citta, mano and vinnana have the same meanings, used in different contexts. ... > How can this "mind precedes all mental states" be understood in the > light > of > the book we are about to study? Thanks in advance. .... “That which exists in the mind (cetasi) by occurring in dependence upon it is mentality (cetasika). For it is unable to take an object without consciousness; in the absence of consciousness there is no arising of any mentality at all. " Like in the quote about understanding being the forerunner with regard to the other eightfold path factors, it means they cannot arise without it. Great Qus and comments and also thx for sharing 'Deeds of Merit' and all your helpful reflections on that. Metta, Sarah ======= 36704 From: htootintnaing Date: Tue Sep 21, 2004 4:10am Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 068 ) Dear Dhamma Friends, Anagami magga nana is not the highest nana. But at least this nana eradicate kama raga or sensuous craving and dosa or hatred. So anagams are like brahmas that is they do nat have any hatred or aversion. If they die in this life without progress, they will all be reborn in one of 5 suddhavasa catuttha jhana rupa brahma bhumis. If anagams do not have rupa jhanas and arupa jhanas they will not be able to do nirodha samapatti. But they can stay in anagami phala samapatti. When in anagami phala samapatti, there is no other object except nibbana. But unlike nirodha samapatti, there are still cittaja rupas and cittas which are anagami phala cittas and they accompanying cetasikas such as Noble Eightfold Path and other kusala cetasikas. This is totally different that there are anagami phala samapatti and nirodha samapatti. But those anagams who do not have rupavacara rupa jhanas and arupavacara arupa jhanas cannot stay in nirodha samapatti. When in nirodha samapatti, there is no citta at all. So there is no cetasika at all. There is no cittaja rupa at all. Nirodha samapatti may be said as saupadisea nibbana. Because as soon as 7 days lifespan of aharaja rupas is reached, anagami phala citta or arahatta phala citta has to arise once followed by bhavanga cittas and then back to life as we would see. Anagams are free of kama raga and free of dosa. They have eradicated 5 fetters or 5 samyojanas. Vicikiccha, ditthi, silabbattaparamasa, kama raga and dosa. As they do not have dosa, they will never cry, never depress, never be frightened and they are free of anxieties. But they still have to eradicate more subtle things like bhava ragaanusaya, manaanusaya, uddhaccaanusaya, and avijjaanusaya. Mahasatipatthana is ongoing. Nibbana has been seen thrice and kilesas have been cleansed layer by layer and they anagams now have very few and thin layer of kilesa. These anusaya akusala include maana or conceit. They have seen nibbana. They have seen nibbana for three times. They may think that they do not have conceit. What is right is that there is no vitikkama kilesa. But there are anusaya kilesa and they are hard to see. Even though they are calm and peaceful, they know that they have not done the job completely. That is the job of cleanseing all kilesa including all anusaya kilesa. Anusaya are potentials and they may at any time arise and appear as pariyutthana kilesa and even vitikkama kilesa. They all have to be eradicated if total extinguishment of all fire is the goal. To fulfil this goal of extinguishing all fire, anagams have to stay in mahasatipatthana and they have to discern dhamma at any moment. When it is the right time and all perfections have been fulfiled, then arahatta magga nana is going to arise soon. When there are all bodhipakkhiya dhammas and arahatta magga citta is just going to arise, the existing contemplation stops and bhavanga cittas follow. They again stop and there arise mano dvara avajjana citta. This citta contemplates on the arammana that is rupa or namma with marks of anicca, dukkha, anatta. It passes away and next arise parikamma kamavacara mahakusala citta arises taking the same object of mano dvara avajjana citta. It passes away and next upacara then anuloma followed by gotrabhu citta. Gotrabhu citta is kamavacara mahakusala citta. It is not lokuttara citta. But it is the last citta in non-arahats. But its object is not rupa or nama with marks of anicca, dukkha, anatta but its object is nibbana. This citta is lineage-changing citta. It leaves non- arahathood. Gotrabhu citta falls away and next arahatta magga citta arises seeing nibbana as its object. This is the highest nana and as soon as it arises, this arahatta magga nana eradicates all kilesa without any trace including anusaya and then the puggala becomes totally pure and he now deserves to receice all kinds of offerings from all sattas manussa, devas, brahmas. The job is done and there is nothing left to eradicate. This citta 'arahatta magga lokuttara kusala citta' is 85th citta of 89 cittas in total. Unlike other kusala cittas, magga kusala cittas immediate give rise to their effect without any interruption of any single moment. This means that as soon as arahatta magga citta passes away, there immediately arises 'arahatta phala lokuttara vipaka citta'. This citta is 89th citta of 89 cittas in total and it is the last citta and the highest of all cittas as it is the most pure and completely free of kilesa. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta Htoo Naing PS:Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome and they will be valuable. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts. 36705 From: plnao Date: Tue Sep 21, 2004 4:31am Subject: Fare the well, friend Herman ( was Re: [dsg] "... as parasites a tree." ???) Hi Herman > Thank you for your post. I sincerely hope you don't mind me replying to > your posts. I certainly have no problems with your posts. Well, you know to tell the truth I sometimes think some people can't be on the same page, so what's the point? I know that sounds narrow minded, but if you don't see Abhidhamma as the Buddha's teaching, and I do, what basis can we ever discuss things from? I don't know about you, but as far as I'm concerned most debates go around in circles, nothing is proven, neither side gives in, and the result (on my part at least - even just from reading them) is stimulation of restlessness and possibly other of the hindrances that AN V. 51 points to, the five obstacles that "overwhelm awareness and weaken discernment." In my case, awareness is very easily overwhelmed, I can assure you! And I am so easily distracted from what's really important. "Tripe" is not a word that I would use to describe a teaching that is deeply respected by millions of people in several Buddhist countries, no matter how I felt about it. Perhaps in this lifetime or another lifetime you'll feel differently, and perhaps I will. But while you see Abhidhamma the way you do, and I see it the way I do, there's not really much point in discussing Dhamma together, is there? Know what I mean? I don't say that with an ounce of hostility, believe me, I'm just being sensible. So I doubt that I'll be engaging in much discussion with you, but I look forward to reading your interesting posts. And using any irritation, if it arises, as objects of mindfulness! :) Carry on, Herman, in your quest for eradication of all false teachings! And fare thee well! Everyone has a different Dhamma direction, according to conditions. Judging from your posts here, I would say that yours is towards wholesome doubt and investigation as rightly urged in Kalama Sutta. (Perhaps this is just one aspect of your practice) My direction now is toward faith, even with an element of the blind variety. (I wonder if there is a sutta that praises blind faith in a way that balances the Kalama Sutta? I think there is a lot to be said for the motivating power of blind faith, of not needing to answer all one's doubts before believing a teaching, of letting the doubts go and going with the teaching. The Middle Way applies here, of course.) You would say ( I assume) that there is risk there, of falling deep into wrong view from which there is no escape. I can see the risk. Yes, Herman, I walk with eyes open through the Gates of Abhidhamma and kneel at the feet of my teachers, K Sujin and K. Nina. The supreme teacher, the Buddha, is there with them, as he is there with you on your Dhamma path. He is a most splendidly versatile teacher! Let us all venture on in dana, sila and bhavana! Metta, Phil 36706 From: Bhikkhu Samahita Date: Mon Sep 20, 2004 10:52pm Subject: Void Blinking ...!!! BlankFriends: Non-Empty Void: Void, Void, they say! Void of What ? There is no permanent individuality ‘in here’. All is void continuous same personal identity! There is no stable identical substance ‘out there’. All is void of constant same enduring lasting entity. Both are Void of being in existence & in non-existence! There is only a flux of change, transience & (re)becoming.. Avoiding both these extremes of Eternalism & Annihilationism One should remain in the Middle sticking to Dependent Arising: When this is present, that appears. When this is absent, that does not appear. With the emergence of this, that too arises. With the ceasing of this, that too disappears. Just as there is a mirror and a reflection even so is: The apprehending & the apprehended; That which knows & that which is known; Just this twin Mentality & Materiality; Mere activity of Naming-&-Forming; Manifestations of Mind & Matter !!! Transient indeed is this Dual Dynamic Appearance, Since both elements is momentary, changing, discretely blinking in an ever passing serial sequence of arising & ceasing, how can such ever be said really to exist even for a moment? Even while perceived this moment is already gone, never to return again. This is all, this is the world, and such is all these phenomena: Passing Painful States, Not-Me-nor-I-nor-mine-nor-any-self... Whether internal or external, whether past, present or future, whether fine or gross, whether far or near, whether material or immaterial, whether physical or mental, all constructions are: Void of Lasting Permanence. Void of Enduring Pleasure. Void of Ego-or-Ownership. Friendship is the Greatest ! Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. http://groups.msn.com/DirectDhamma http://uk.geocities.com/bhikkhu_samahita http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Buddha-Direct http://www.smartgroups.com/groups/TrueDhamma Dhamma-Questions sent to my email are quite Welcome. 36707 From: plnao Date: Tue Sep 21, 2004 6:36am Subject: Deeds of merit - generosity and cittas that arise from it Hello all More from "Deeds of Merit" by Sujin Boriharnwanaket available at http://www.zolag.co.uk/meri1.html As I mentioned this morning, I read a phrase from K Sujin ("one cannot develop panna if we don't see the value of dana and sila") that made me realize that I have an uderappreciation of dana. I tend to see self lurking subtly at the heart of acts of generosity. I want to consider dana more and hopefully get by this obstacle to right understanding. I initially posted a few passages from the first chapter in the book, on generosity, some months ago, but with your permission I will go back to the beginning of the book, which might mean some double posting from back then. Thanks. In the following exchange, S is K Sujin and W is Ms. Wandhana. *** S: Everybody can just do what he is able to according to his status and the circumstances he is in. Someone may be doing more than he is able to, whereas someone else may be lax in generosity. In both cases the result will be worry and distress. Are there certain things which you like very much? W. : I have a watch which I like very much because I use it to know what time it is. I look at it very often. S. : If you would give it away to someone else would you regret it very much? W. : I would regret it for a long time. S. : Each time we give something away we should know whether, as a consequence, few kusala cittas and many akusala cittas arise, or whether there are more kusala cittas arising than akusala cittas [1. If there are more akusala cittas arising than kusala cittas while we give something away, I think that it would be better to give something else which can be a condition for the arising of more kusala cittas than akusala cittas. People who do not have any understanding of cause and result in life may make a great effort to give, or, on the contrary, they may have no inclination to give at all. If they are ignorant of cause and result and if they have no understanding of the kusala cittas or akusala cittas which arise after the giving, they will either be overdoing generosity or, on the other hand, be negligent. In both cases there will be sorrow afterwards. (end quote) Ph: K Sujin says "each time we give something away we should know whether, as a consequence, few kusala cittas and many akusala cittas arise, or whether there are more kusala cittas arising than akusala cittas [1. If there are more akusala cittas arising than kusala cittas while we give something away, I think that it would be better to give something else which can be a condition for the arising of more kusala cittas than akusala cittas." The obvious question is when we are ignorant worldlings how on earth can we know whether there are kusala cittas or akusala arising? These days I tend to assume there is akusala at work, which might be just as wrong as assuming that there is kusala.. How do we know? As it happens, I found this in my little pocket notebook today : "Panna will know if there's clinging to self." (Sarah said it) In the same way, panna will know if there is kusala or akusala. But our panna is still weak, not developed. Thus again a reminder to patience. We will not know tomorrow whether there is kusala or akusala arising from an act of giving. My current policy is to assume there is both, coming and going in rapid succession. Panna will develop in a way that allows better understanding of what is going in behind an act of giving. BTW, I had an interesting reminder of how this happens this morning. I was just about to get in the shower, which I hoped to finish quickly so I could have some writing time before going to work. Naomi asked me to take out the unburnable garbage, though she was heading out and could do it easily enough. There was irritation, and then something more wholesome arose, a consideration of being generous with my time, to serve her. (I'd just read the above line about "if we do not know about dana...") I felt very calm all of a sudden, felt it was kusala. I got dressed again instead of getting in the shower and got the garbage together, got it out. But then she said there was more garbage in the next room, and the irritation was back. Soon enough the calm was back. I really felt these mental states were not-self, coming and going beyond my control, the wholesome ones conditioned by dhamma study, the unwholesome ones by accumulations rooted in dosa? It was interesting. Metta, Phil 36708 From: Dan D. Date: Tue Sep 21, 2004 6:50am Subject: Re: Rob M: "...carries the label 'akusala'" Dear Rob M, Hello Rob M, We are going around in dizzying circles! I do enjoy the dance, but I may have to step back and do some more reading on vipaka. I wrote that it is not enough to say: "...the painful bodily feeling arose because an intrinsically undesireable rupa (the tactile object) arose together with body sensitivity (another rupa). This feeling arose as part of a vipaka citta which carries the label 'akusala'," because there is no explanation of any connection to past akusala dhamma as a cause of the pain. You responded with my original question: "Again, I ask why the past akusala javana citta has to have any bearing on the current object." The question arises from my readings. For example, Abhidhammtha sangaha lists seven kinds of akusalavipakacittani, one of which is "body-consciousness accompanied by pain" [I§8]. BB's explanations: "[These are] the seven types of consciousness that result from unwholesome kamma." [CMA, Guide to I§8] And, "All twelve unwholseome cittas can generate the seven unwholesome-resultant cittas anywhere in the sensuous world during the course of existence..." [CMA, Guide to V§27] And, "These [vipaka] constitute a third class of citta distinct from the former two, a class that comprises both the results of wholesome kamma and the results of unwholesome kamma." [CMA, Guide to I§3] Bad kamma can result in body-consciousness accompanied by pain; bad kamma can generate body-consciousness accompanied by pain; body- consciousness accompanied by pain is a result of unwholesome kamma. BB even goes so far as to say, "Whether on a given occasion one experiences an undesirable, a moderately desirable, or an extremely desirable object is governed by one's past kamma" [CMA, Guide to IV§17]. These are BB's formulations. I've seen similar formulations in Atthasalini, Dhammasangami, and elsewhere. So, we both ask, "why should past akusala javana citta have any bearing on the current object?" I think you were right when you pointed to conditions (NDSC). I thank you as I step back for some more reading. Metta, Dan 36709 From: Htoo Naing Date: Tue Sep 21, 2004 7:29am Subject: Tracing the mind's track ( 01 ) I. THE MIND AS THE WHOLE There is no doubt that mind exists. This mind as conventionally known is mental body. Kaya or body means a combination of parts. That is parts of the whole. The whole is referred to as body or kaya. There are two kinds of body. Physical body and mental body. Physical body is readily perceivable and its existence is easy to understand. Another body that is mental body is not as conspicuous as that of physical body. This is especially true of other beings' mental body. But at least own mental body can be perceived through thoughtful consideration. The physical body as we all know is a combination of parts. The parts are head, neck, trunk, limbs, joints etc etc. In this there is ultimately no physical body but its existence is due to the construction in our mind that there is physical body as accepted by all. Like physical body, there is another body inside of us. It is mental body. Mental body is mind. It is a body because it is also a combination of parts. These parts are interesting to study even though they are difficult to understand. If each part is studied in detail, it would sound like theoretical study. So now we are going to study mental body as the whole. The mind that is the mind of us is actually continuously operating its various functions and there is a continuous flow of events in the mind. The flow is like the flow of a running river. Events are happening one after another, it is good to be analytical and to see each event in the mind. But in the earlier part of this discussion on ' Tracing the mind's track ' we will explore as a whole that is the mind as the whole. TRACING THE MIND'S TRACK BY HTOO NAING 36710 From: robmoult Date: Tue Sep 21, 2004 7:50am Subject: Re: Rob M: "...carries the label 'akusala'" Hi Dan (and Nina), --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Dan D." wrote: > We are going around in dizzying circles! I do enjoy the dance, but I > may have to step back and do some more reading on vipaka. ===== I don't think that we are going around in circles, but we are in a holding pattern :-) You are looking for the relationship between the past kamma-creating citta and the vipaka cittas which arise in the sense door process. This question intrigued me and I started looking into more depth on asynchronous kamma condition as explained in the Patthana. I referred to Abhidhamma lecture notes prepared by U Silananda (the Abhidhamma scholar who prepared the charts found in BB's CMA). What I found really shocked me. It gave me a completely different perspective on kamma (see my post titled "Kamma" addressed to Nina / Rob K). I am still trying to digest the implications (and Nina is also looking into it) but it would APPEAR as though all the vipaka cittas throughout our existence are the result of the single kamma which propelled us into this existence. This is not without precedent. The eye-sensitivity rupa is produced by kamma. The eye-sensitivity rupa arises and falls away billions of times each second. Each new existence of eye-sensitivity rupa is created by kamma. But for a given existence, all the eye-sensitivity rupas produced come from the same kamma; the kamma that propelled us into this existence. For example, if our kamma is such that we are born congenitally blind, then this same kamma will ensure that we are blind for our entire life. The same holds true for the other kamma produced rupas. The billions of bhavanga cittas which arise and fall away each second are all vipaka cittas; they are all the result of a single kamma. The kamma that propelled us into this existence. Interestingly enough, this also settles a long-standing difference of opinion that I have had with Sarah (Sarah was quoting K. Sujin) in K. Sujin's favour! To be frank, I am not yet 100% comfortable with this new concept of kamma (I don't think Nina is either). For example, since the kamma that propelled us into this existence is kusala (this is a happy rebirth), it should not be possible for us to experience akusala vipaka cittas (i.e. no painful bodily feeling). In summary, I don't think that we are going around in circles at all. I think that we may be on the brink of a deeper understanding. I am eagerly awaiting Nina's (or Rob K's or other's) reply; I can visualize Nina pouring over the Patthana as we speak :-) I wish I weren't so busy these days. I would love to spend a week curled up with the Patthana. The Patthana is not light reading but it can be deeply rewarding (see my recent post on paticcasamuppada). ===== > > I wrote that it is not enough to say: "...the painful bodily feeling > arose because an intrinsically undesireable rupa (the tactile object) > arose together with body sensitivity (another rupa). This feeling > arose as part of a vipaka citta which carries the label 'akusala'," > because there is no explanation of any connection to past akusala > dhamma as a cause of the pain. > > You responded with my original question: "Again, I ask why the past > akusala javana citta has to have any bearing on the current object." > > The question arises from my readings. For example, Abhidhammtha > sangaha lists seven kinds of akusalavipakacittani, one of which > is "body-consciousness accompanied by pain" [I§8]. > > BB's explanations: > > "[These are] the seven types of consciousness that result from > unwholesome kamma." [CMA, Guide to I§8] ===== No problem with this... ===== > > And, "All twelve unwholseome cittas can generate the seven > unwholesome-resultant cittas anywhere in the sensuous world during > the course of existence..." [CMA, Guide to V§27] ===== Interesting enough, this is contrary to U Silananda's charts. U Silanda's charts indicate that only lobha-mula javana cittas create kamma. I suspect that this is one of the things that Nina is looking into. ===== > > And, "These [vipaka] constitute a third class of citta distinct from > the former two, a class that comprises both the results of wholesome > kamma and the results of unwholesome kamma." [CMA, Guide to I§3] ===== This one is okay... ===== > > Bad kamma can result in body-consciousness accompanied by pain; bad > kamma can generate body-consciousness accompanied by pain; body- > consciousness accompanied by pain is a result of unwholesome kamma. ===== Yes, this seems to make sense except that it does not match with my understanding of U Silananda's chart. ===== > > BB even goes so far as to say, "Whether on a given occasion one > experiences an undesirable, a moderately desirable, or an extremely > desirable object is governed by one's past kamma" [CMA, Guide to > IV§17]. ===== This is the crux of the matter! ===== > > These are BB's formulations. I've seen similar formulations in > Atthasalini, Dhammasangami, and elsewhere. ===== Any quotes from these texts would help the analysis process. ===== > > So, we both ask, "why should past akusala javana citta have any > bearing on the current object?" I think you were right when you > pointed to conditions (NDSC). I thank you as I step back for some > more reading. > ===== Should be interesting. Metta, Rob M :-) 36711 From: robmoult Date: Tue Sep 21, 2004 7:59am Subject: Re: [dsg] Toll Booth Operators and the Brahmaviharas Hi Nina, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > When considering the brahmaviharas, the characteristic etc, concerns only > one's own citta. We do not think of the effect Agreed. My only defence is "artistic license" as I tried to tie all the Brahmaviharas into one context. Reminds me of pre-Renaissance art where you would have multiple scenes from a biblical story presented simultaneously. I also agree that equanimity is critical. Metta, Rob M :-) 36712 From: Date: Tue Sep 21, 2004 4:45am Subject: Re: [dsg] To support or abandon your parents (child, relatives)? - Sutta-Nip... Hi, Sarah - In a message dated 9/21/04 6:49:58 AM Eastern Daylight Time, sarahprocterabbott@y... writes: > Howard, I agree with your other points, but I think that for a bhikkhu to > continue supporting parents such as from money in trust would be a clear > breach of the rules with regard to giving up all home-life requisites and > ties. > ======================== Well, you may be right with regard to a trust, because a "trust" would seem to still indicate ownership by the Bhikkhu. I suppose that the Bhikkhu would actually need to fully give the holdings away (to his parents and/or others). As far as giving up *all* ties is concerned, well, I doubt that is often observed in a complete fashion. The Buddha, himself, did not sever all ties. In fact, he specifically taught Dhamma to his mother, no? In a heaven realm? (Or so it is written.) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 36713 From: Date: Tue Sep 21, 2004 5:03am Subject: Re: [dsg] To support or abandon your parents (child, relatives)? - Sutta-Nip... Hi, Sarah - In a message dated 9/21/04 6:49:58 AM Eastern Daylight Time, sarahprocterabbott@y... writes: > On vinnana, we're still way off in terms of agreement, however. You refer > to it in D.O. as 'self-oriented knowing: the illusory sense of a subject > encountering an object'. Seeing consciousness is an example of vinnana. > Seeing just sees, it isn't self-oriented or illusory or anything else. > ======================= Our differences on this are mainly with regard to D.O., with respect to which I take 'vi~n~nana' to mean more than experiencing. I've explained why I do so in multiple posts, and I don't want to go through that litany any further, as I'm certain you and others also don't. But outside that context, I understand 'vi~n~nana' to indicate mere presence of experiential content, as I understand vedana to be mere affective taste, and cetana to be mere "impulse". All of the foregoing are impersonal experiential events not involving a knower. [I say "experiential" rather than "mental," because I don't mean to imply it being a mind-door matter.] I wouldn't quite put it as you do, however, in saying "Seeing just sees". I wouldn't put it that way, because the language suggests to me seeing being a thing which does something - seeing being an agent. I do not view it that way. Seeing is not a thing that does something. It is the doing. Instead of saying "Seeing just sees," I would be more inclined to say "Seeing is just seeing," or, better, to say nothing at all. ;-) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 36714 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Sep 21, 2004 10:05am Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. Intro Visuddhimagga XIV, 101. Hi Larry, op 21-09-2004 01:05 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > I was wondering why sense consciousness is more apparent than javana > citta. There is only one sense consciousness but 7 javana cittas. N: When the javana cittas are accompanied by pleasant or unpleasant feeling they seem to be more apparent, aren't they? Often seeing seems to be more apparent, it is as if the world is light all the time. Remember Matt's post about this. Seeing arises time and again, but we have to be reminded that there is not one long moment of seeing. Cittas arise and fall away so rapidly, and after seeing has fallen away there are many other cittas including javana cittas. Seeing arises again and again, that is why it is apparent. When sati and pañña arise the characteristic of seeing can gradually be known: it experiences what is visible. When attachment arises its characteristic can also be known. It likes the object. When different charactreistics can be realized we do not wonder anymore what is more apparent. Whatever appears can be known as only nama or only rupa. L: Also, I don't see any difference between kusala and akusala visible > object. They both are accompanied by neutral feeling. N: I think you mean seeing-consciousness, not visible object. Visible object is rupa, it is neither kusala nor akusala. As to seeing-consciousness, this is not kusala or akusala, but it is kusala vipaaka and akusala vipaaka. It is meaningful that vipaaka is only one jaati, the jaati of vipaaka. It is conditioned by kamma already, and vipaaka itself cannot produce any result. L: Javana must be a reaction to accumulations. A reaction due to our accumulations. They are conditioned by way of natural strong dependence condition. The latent tendencies are so strong. They are latent but powerful. Before there is time to think about vipaka, the javana cittas arise already. Nina. 36715 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Sep 21, 2004 10:05am Subject: Re: [dsg] Kamma Hi Rob M, I like your questions and remarks, an opportunity to consider more. op 20-09-2004 16:04 schreef robmoult op rob.moult@j...: > K. Sujin says that only when all of the conditions recorded in the > Atthasalini (Vol I, Book I, Part III, Chapter V "Discourse on > Courses of Immoral Action" and Chapter VI "Discourse on Courses of > Moral Action") are present will kamma be created. K. Sujin says that > if all of these conditions are not met, then kamma is not created > (but accumulations are reinforced in all cases). N: We have to be careful here quoting K. Sujin. Especially as to the last sentence. There can be misunderstandings about what K. Sujin said. Let us look again. R: My understanding was that all volitional actions created kamma but > when the conditions recorded in the Atthasalini were present, the > kamma created was strong enough to condition the rebirth linking > citta. N: No doubt. I am inclined to say instead of: creating, : actions motivated by kamma or volition. I take cetanaa and kamma to be the same, as is stated in the suttas. When not all factors are present as recorded in the Atth., but the akusala is intense it could produce result in the course of life. I prefer not to specify, since these things are not specified in the teachings. Thus: I would not say: every akusala citta produces result. But rather: when the intensity of akusala is such that it can produce result, it can produce result depending on conditons. I tend to keep the intensity more general, because who knows? R: I checked some Suttas on kamma and they all seem to talk about > rebirth but never about kamma ripening during a lifetime. ... N: Yes, they do, take the story of MahaaMoggallana, as given by Htoo. The Vinaya can help us, it gives details about degrees of akusala. A monk pushed his father by accident and the father died. The Buddha asked him: did you have the intention to kill him? We can understand more the intensities of akusala. But why should we find out in detail what conditions which vipaaka at which moment? It is past already, and it is better to understand seeing, hearing or thinking now, akusala now. R:U Silananda's lecture notes went into more detail on > asynchronous kamma (Nanakkhanika-kamma)condition: N: Yes, many of these are in the Vis. studies and the Tiika. Also about the factors that make kusala kamma inferior. Exactly. > R: Here are some observations on this table: > > 1. Dosa-mula cittas and moha-mula cittas do not create kamma! N:Dosa-mula cittas can be very intense, they can motivate evil deeds. As to moha-mula cittas, yes they can. Even the type that is accompanied by uddhacca, restlessness can produce vipaaka in the course of life. We talked about this with A. Sujin. When akusala kamma is committed, say, by lobha, it can produce result as rebirth-consciousness. But in between committing a bad deed there are also moha-muula-cittas accompanied by restlessness and these also can produce result, but only in the course of life. The Tiika to Vis. XIV, 93: : R: 2. It would appear as though a past lobha-mula citta conditions > rebirth linking into a woeful state (bhavanga is akusala vipaka > upekkha santirana) and that it is only during a woeful existence > will the 7 akusala vipaka cittas (5 sense consciousness + receiving > + investigating) arise as a result of the same lobha-mula citta > which propelled one into that state! N: When I said to K. Sujin: the same kamma, she said: do not specify. This is more careful, we have to be very careful. The same for kusala kamma. But we find in the Sutta that the Buddha said that an act of generosity could produce many happy rebirths. He said not to despise generosity. But for each case, we cannot specify. R: It now > appears as though all these vipaka cittas throughout the entire > existence are the result of the same javana citta which propelled > one into this existence! N: See above. Why should we know which kamma? R: This is a completely new understanding of kamma and it appears as > though K. Sujin may have been correct! N: She did not say what you said above. She just gave a warning: do not specify. But if every akusala citta is also akusala kamma, that is going very far! When seeing now, then reading and thinking of the meaning of the letters, this is done with akusala citta when there is no dana, sila or bhavana. Defining meanings, the same. It is good to remember that we are thinking a lot and mostly with akusala citta. Thus, that akusala cittas are countless. But imagine if all such moments were akusala kamma bringing a result! Then we, laypeople, would have to live like the monks, and that is unnatural for us. No jokes, no laughing, no icecream (as Rob K said). What K. Sujin says about samalobha (normal lobha) and visamalobha (harmful lobha) makes sense to me. But I would not specify which is which exactly, where the borderline is. Nina. 36716 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Sep 21, 2004 10:05am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: function, manifestation, etc. Dear Ken H, op 21-09-2004 07:05 schreef kenhowardau op kenhowardau@y...: > > I took this a step further and assumed that our concepts > of `experiencer' and `experiencing' must also have had their origins > in paramattha dhammas. I assumed citta had alternative ways of > cognising a nama - sometimes seeing it as the "expereincer" (the > seer, the hearer, the liker, the disliker, . . ) , and sometimes > seeing it simply as the experiencing (seeing, hearing, liking, > disliking). > > That was a wrong assumption. N: I do not mind words like experiencer or experiencing, it is the characteristic that matters. Is it nama or is it rupa. K: At the risk of confusing the issue, can I ask; is it different when > there is panna? When citta, for example, is directly understood as > nama (as distinct from rupa), is it still being experienced > as 'seeing' 'hearing' etc., or is it being experienced as, "the > dhamma that sees?" N: The dhammas that are objects of pañña do not change, they are just natural, ordinary seeing, hearing, etc. But understanding of them can grow. Seeing is known as dhamma, that means: as not my seeing which is a distorted interpretation of reality. We do not have to think, the dhamma that sees. Sati just attends to the characteristic of seeing when seeing appears, and then pañña can at that moment perform its task of that object. Some of the wrong view can wear away. More remarks are welcome, it is a good topic to consider. Nina. 36717 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Sep 21, 2004 10:05am Subject: Re: [dsg] OK, Abhidharma Dear AL, op 20-09-2004 04:27 schreef Andrew Levin op andrewlevin@e...: >> All kinds of craving can only be >> eradicated by the arahat. He is liberated from the cycle. The links of >> ignorance and craving are cut off. > AL: I am going to concede this point, it does not seem reasonable that > practitioners will have *no* craving just by seeing the impermanence > and selflessness of things, perhaps it means something different? N: First wrong view has to go. Even when seeing it as anatta, there is still craving arising. It is so deeply accumulated. AL: But this leaves me in a tizzy here because I've read in MN 130, Divine > Messengers, that good people in this world, when warned by Divine > Messengers, do not dwell in negligence, but practise well the noble > dharma, and 'clinging they look upon with fear, for it produces birth > and death.' Doesn't this suggest that clinging (and under it, > craving) is dealt with at an earlier level, even before attainments, > or could the passage just be taken literally that they look upon > clinging with fear, until it is all eradicated? N: They see the danger of craving, since it keeps us in the cycle. Yes, even before any attainment. There are many levels of seeing the danger, also the intellectual level. But it can condition a sense of urgency not to be negligent. I like this sutta very much. A:... I am still dwelling in negligence, and > not one of those who practises well the noble dharma. .. Just a matter of when I can > establish myself in some stable meditation for appropriate > reflection(s) and practise. N: It helps to realize one's negligence as a conditioned dhamma. This is better than thinking: when *shall* I... AL: >> N: We cannot find out much so long as we do not even know the difference >> between nama and rupa, the first stage of tender insight. But in MN 42, the Buddha lists the ten courses of action > by body, speech, and mind, that lead to a favorable rebirth. One of > them is right view, which he described like this: > >> He has right view, undistorted vision, thus: 'There is what is given > and what is offered and what is sacrificed, and there is fruit and > ripening of good and bad kammas, and there is this world and the other > world and mother and father and spontaneously (born) beings, and good > and virtuous monks and brahmans that have themselves realized by > direct knowledge and declared this world and the other world.'< > > I don't think that any of the vipassana nanas are necessary to have > this view, it was to householders after all. Do you propose that we > can only come to this view, or at least a partial semblence of it, > through the practise of dharma and gaining insight-knowledges? N: Yes. And also householders can develop insight. Only when seeing dhamma as dhamma one can grasp what kamma and vipaaka are, and have right view about them as not self, not belonging to self. The Buddha spoke here in conventional language about kamma and vipaaka and right view about them. Take seeing now, that is vipaaka, but without the development of insight we do not have right understanding of it as a conditioned nama. What do we know about seeing without being aware of it right now? A: And I do think that the Buddha made it very clear when he said "right > view, undistorted vision," that it is plainly seeing reality, not > intellectual knowledge. N: Completely right. AL: I would assert > that some aspects of right view can be taken up just by staying > present and trying to acquire vision of what really is,... (snipped) ... So this right view is important, it's what motivates us > to do actions N: Correct. In the Vis study we saw examples how wrong view that there is no result of bad actions motivates a lot of akusala kamma. See Visuddhimagga XIV, 91: AL: I don't know how knowledge or vision of > spontaneously reappearing beings can come about. N: These are results of kusala kamma in the form of birth as a deva. Also rebirth in Hell is spontaneous. But the point is to consider this present moment, the only way to have right view. Then we can read the suttas with more understanding. The sutta you quoted above points to: right understanding of kamma and vipaka. We should not be confused as to details about father and mother, this is a way of explaining the truth of kamma and vipaka by way of conventional language. AL: >> A: But how am I to know which wrong view it >>> is, ie an eternal self wrong view (further, does this eternal self >>> wrong view hold that the body is a self, or does it apply to all >>> phenomenon?), the annihilation self view, and wrong view about kamma >>> and vipaka, thinking purification can come about through rites and >>> rituals. Especially the last one, I wouldnt be able to recognize that >>> such a wrong view was present in my mind. >> N: That is very good. It helps to know that we are inclined to > manipulate >> sati so long as we are not sotapannas. It also helps to know that > this is >> not the way. > > I can't help but feel you didn't answer the question. N: My remark pertains to purification that can come about through rites and rituals.. If this is present the other wrong views will not be eradicated, no hope. We do not have to try to know all kinds of wrong view. A: I do need to > recognize wrong views as they are present in my mind, don't I? ...Why else did you list them in your book Abhidharma in Daily life if not so we can recognize them? N: It is good to know that there are many kinds of wrong views and that the belief in self conditions them. But we cannot recognize each one of them, because pañña should be very keen. Stages of insight again! AL: I've > been reading from a commentary to the Maha-Satipatthana sutta, I accept that sati can come and go when conditions > are right, but I think, for instance, that I can be intend to be more > mindful of the posture of my body and its smaller movements and > positionings, or I can meditate in a fashion where I can be heedful of > the qualities of my mind. Please let me know what you guys view on > this is so we can get some reconciliation going. > Well then , What are the conditions . Can we cultivate them? N: Study of the Dhamma so that we have at least intellectual correct understanding, and also all kinds of kusala, so that we think less of self. If you intend to meditate you could ask yourself: is there clinging to result? >> N: There are two kinds of meditation or bhaavana: samatha and vipassana. >> Only through vipassana wrong view of self can be eradicated. > AL: Right but this is only one type of wrong view. Please see above for > the others. N: These are all connected with the wrong view of self. AL: >> When you speak words of appreciation to your parents with kusala > citta, it >> is a form of dana. At that moment the citta knows the benefit of kusala. >> That is a level of straightening one's views. > AL: I will give you this. I was kind to my parents earlier today and I > think it gave me the benefit of seeing my views that are in there, > right, wrong, or whatever they are! Generosity indeed. Perhaps we > can talk about that in another thread. N: I appreciate this and I am really glad. Generosity, very important to talk about this. See what Phil wrote: Now you have more understanding than before of the citta, that it is citta that is kind. This is the way to learn that there is no owner of kusala, that it depends on the citta that arises because of conditions. Citta is a dhamma. Evenso in the case of the brahmavihaaras, we can understand *our own* (not really ours) citta, not someone else's citta. A: But didn't you say in ADL that when we know the underlying tendencies > of dosa or lobha when we get engaged in frivolous talk we can lessen > them? Or something to that effect? Are you getting this? Why do I > feel like I'm talking to a machine? N: It is more like this: we know that akusala like frivolous talk is conditioned by past accumulations, by the latent tendencies that are accumulated. But sure, they can be weakened by the development of right understanding together with all kinds of kusala. If they are not weakened, how could lokuttara pannñaa eradicate them completely. It is a process going on for countless aeons. As Azita says: patience, courage and good cheer, Nina. 36718 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Sep 21, 2004 10:05am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:Process of cittas. Hi Rob M, See Path of Discrimination under behaviour, as discussed before. The Expositor gives all the details, not merely brief allusions. So does the Vis. And as you say, in the Patthana under contiguity condition. Nina. op 21-09-2004 02:50 schreef robmoult op rob.moult@j...: > I note that the Buddha never discussed the details of the citta > process; there are brief allusions to the process in the Patthana > and in Buddhaghosa's works, but the details were not laid out until > about 1500 years after the Buddha's parinibbana in the > Abhidhammatthasangaha. 36719 From: jwromeijn Date: Tue Sep 21, 2004 10:05am Subject: Fare the well, friend Herman ( was Re: [dsg] "... as parasites a tree." ???) Hallo Phil, Herman and all Phil: > Well, you know to tell the truth I sometimes think some people can't be on > the same page, so what's the point? I know that sounds narrow minded, > but if you don't see Abhidhamma as the Buddha's teaching, and I do, > what basis can we ever discuss things from? I don't know about you, but > as far as I'm concerned most debates go around in circles, nothing is > proven, neither side gives in, Joop: Of course you can decide how to spend your energy, Phil. But perhaps the discussion can be made more general: there are two group active in this DSG:  those who know the whole Tipitaka are the words of the Buddha and that the Commentaries are part of the Canon: they ask and give information out of this frame of reference  those who (also, in their own eyes) are Theravadins but think the Pali Canon is the result of a historical process and that some texts are more genuine than other ones, that some texts has to be taken literally and other can be taken metaphorically. The discussion between Sarah and Dighanakha about fundamentalism, as explained by him in # 36543, is another example. Of course these groups are not homogenous, is is a construct. The question is: can the 'members' is these two groups discuss with each other and how, without boring each other and without going in circles? If the answer is yes, there must be some rules (and of course: respect) The reaction on this message will be: what rules do you propose. But first I'm curious if the answer is yes. To be honest: I doubt, as someone who places himself in the second group and is more interested in the future than in the past of Theravada. With metta, Joop 36720 From: jwromeijn Date: Tue Sep 21, 2004 10:07am Subject: [dsg] Re: flippin off the moon --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Hi, Joop > > --- jwromeijn wrote: > ... > > > There is no lack of writings by erudite scholars. But by what > > > standard do you measure the views expressed by these other > > > writers? Do you trust your own judgment in the matter? > > Joop: Yes, and sometime with the help of scolars I trust, for example > > David Kalupahana and Stephen Batchelor > > Yes but my question is, how can one be sure that one's preference for a > particular writer (and I'd like to keep this non-personal, it applies to > whoever) is not just a reflection of a shared wrong view of the teachings? > > ... > > Joop: (1) To nothing clinging is good, also not to realities > > I agree with this. > > > (2) The (paramattha) dhammas are realities, that is: they are > > not trancendental (perhaps 'Nibbana' is: we don't know) And because > > the dhammas are realities in the Abhidhamma we have to be critical on > > comments who make things sibtle and complex. > > Sorry Joop, but I haven't managed to catch your point here. Would you > mind explaining further? Thanks. > > Jon Hallo Jon On the second question: I was too short. I connected 'realities' with 'realism' as a kind of philosophy as opposite of transcendentalistic philosophies (Idealism, metaphysics). And I stated that early buddhism - the oldest parts of the Tipitaka - is in this philosophical way realism (source: the Kalupahana I mentioned). On the first question: we never know that, of no text at all, not of the Pali canon and not of other buddhist or buddhological texts. All I have is my intuition, my intelligence and my experience (for example for meditation) But in general I'm not sure if this kind of discussions are fruitfoll, cf my post # 36719 Metta Joop 36721 From: bluescatplayah Date: Tue Sep 21, 2004 1:12pm Subject: Anger and craving Hello, all, I have not been able to check in latlely due to a very hectic school schedule and various personal occurrances. I trust you are all well. A question has arisen in my practice and study which I hope can be answered. Does anger arise from craving exclusively, or does anger arise, in some instances, from stimuli in which craving is not a factor? It has become apparant, during deep examination, that if anger arises in my own mind that there is always a root cause of either craving or aversion. Aversion, it seems, is but craving in different clothing, for if 'I' crave this, but do not crave that, 'I' crave no contact with that. So the question arises: is anger always born of craving, or are there circumstances in which craving plays no part? Please forward any answers deemed appropriate. With metta Duncan 36722 From: rjkjp1 Date: Tue Sep 21, 2004 2:18pm Subject: Fare the well, friend Herman ( was Re: [dsg] "... as parasites a tree." ???) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "plnao" wrote: > > > > (I wonder if there is a sutta that praises blind faith in a way that > balances the Kalama Sutta? I think there is a lot to be said for the > motivating power of blind faith, of not needing to answer all one's doubts > before believing a teaching, of letting the doubts go and going with the > teaching. The Middle Way applies here, of course.) > > +++++++++++++++ Dear Phillip, You are like me I think. As soon as I heard Abhidhamma it all made sense, but I find it hard to communciate about it to others. I think the Buddha never praised blind faith but he taught conditions so that those who want to know gain confidence. In the Gotamaka sutta: "Monks, I proclaim Dhamma with full comprehension, not without full comprehension. I proclaim Dhamma with causal connexions, not without. I proclaim Dhamma accompanied by wonders, not without wonders. Since I do so there is good reason why I should admonish, there is good reason why I should instruct. Well may ye be glad. Well may ye be satisfied. Well may ye be pleased at the thought: Perfectly enlightened is the Exalted One. Well taught by the Exalted One is Dhamma. Well conducted is the Order.' So spake the Exalted One. And while this explanation was being given, the ten-thousand fold world-system quaked." Robertk 36723 From: rjkjp1 Date: Tue Sep 21, 2004 2:45pm Subject: Re: Rob M: "...carries the label 'akusala'" --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" wrote: > It gave me a completely different > perspective on kamma (see my post titled "Kamma" addressed to Nina / > Rob K). I am still trying to digest the implications (and Nina is > also looking into it) but it would APPEAR as though all the vipaka > cittas throughout our existence are the result of the single kamma > which propelled us into this existence. > > +++++++++ Dear RobM, Lucky I decided to look at this post, did you address another to me? BTW The vipakas that occur in one existence are not all conditioned by the kamma that caused patisandhi citta (although some are). In this human plane we have a fortunate birth caused by kusala kamma: thus it is impossible that the undesirable vipaka that we occasionally/often experience is caused by that kamma. RobertK 36724 From: ericlonline Date: Tue Sep 21, 2004 2:48pm Subject: Fare the well, friend Herman ( was Re: [dsg] "... as parasites a tree." ???) Hey Phil, P> My direction now is toward faith, even with an element of the blind variety. (I wonder if there is a sutta that praises blind faith in a way that balances the Kalama Sutta? I think there is a lot to be said for the motivating power of blind faith, of not needing to answer all one's doubts before believing a teaching, of letting the doubts go and going with the teaching. The Middle Way applies here, of course.) http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/wheels/wheel277.html This sutta is not exactly blind as it shows where one has come from and where faith leads. But then you don't have complete blind faith as you are studying the Abhidhamma and you talk of a Middle Way. The Middle Way between scepticism and credulity (blind faith). PEACE E 36725 From: ericlonline Date: Tue Sep 21, 2004 3:59pm Subject: Theory and Practice - Eric Re: Anapanasati/ Sukin Hey Sukin, E> Sukin, please, I am saying it is both. Study and > practice. I am not saying that contemplation is > not needed or secondary for that matter. But when > push comes to shove, you are going to have to leave > all of this theorizing behind. Either you will > intend to do it via meditation or death will force you! Sukin: I know this, but I got carried away trying to prove my point. But still, I think we may have a different understanding as to what `study' as in pariyatti is, and what it means to `practice', which in dhamma is patipatti. I will go a bit into this later on in this post. Great! ----------------------------------------------------- > S: The Bodhisatta may be a great inspiration, but what could I learn from him about getting out of samsara? I guess it depends more on you then on them but isn't that already the case? ----------------------------------------------------- > S> People may be able to enter Samadhi in an instant and experience > fascinating states of mind. Some might talk with seemingly great > authority about levels of consciousness and create elaborate > theories about human experience and nature of reality. For me the > test as to whether that person is really wise is in how much > importance he gives to presently arising realities. > > E: This is for each to know and no descriptive signifier > will allow another to realize the present arising realities no > matter how much the benevolent intent. Sukin: One person cannot make another enlightened. But if the conditions are there, he will speak with wisdom and if his audience has the right accumulations, wisdom can arise in him too. But if someone has never heard the Dhamma (except for Buddhas), then this kind of wisdom can never arise. You see we are in a quandary here. What about when the Buddha was not a Buddha? S> It *must* start with a conceptual description; this happened even in the case of Sariputta. And if a person does understand dhamma, lack of words to describe the experience is no excuse. Well, I would not say *must*. Maybe for you but maybe another sense could enlighten another. ------------------------------------------- > S> The Four Noble Truths, if a teaching is consistent with this, then > it would qualify as Right View, otherwise not. Which is another way > of saying that only the Buddha and his followers were/can be > enlightened. > > E: I dont agree. The 4NT's were discovered by the Buddha > not invented by him. Sukin: We are talking about the way things are, which is independent of anyone's observation and opinion. So yes the Buddha did not invent the 4NT. But I hesitate to say that he discovered it, since this makes it too easy and does give an impression that the 4NT is out there to be discovered. Maybe you like the word 'uncover' better. Nonetheless, if he did not invent it then he found it. S> But only very great `insight' can glimpse the 4NT via developed understanding of the conditioned nature of realities, particularly a firm understanding of anatta. Do you know anyone else who teaches anatta? Krishnamurti, Ramana used it along with (Self). Jed Mckenna uses it and I am sure others. ------------------------------------------------------- > S> It seems odd that people, including monks, have meditated (in some > cases on the breath) for 20, 30 or 40 years and all they can talk > about at the end of it, is `calm', `happiness', `peace' and so on. > And when they advice anyone on `understanding' dhamma, they point to the `formal practice'. > E: Maybe they are just pointing you in a direction > that they know you will eventually realize the present > arisen dhammas. What was the Buddha doing on the eve > of his Enlightenment? He was doing a formal practice > of meditation which he taught as Anapanasati. Sukin: `Formal', according to whom? Did someone teach him this? He discovered it and formally taught it. Formal as in methodical. What is with the aversion to the word 'formal'? Do you informally eat or brush your teeth? One day eat with a shovel and the next with a spoon? One day brush your teeth with a tooth brush and the next a hair brush? S> What he became enlightened to was what *all* practices did not lead him to. When other teachers `point' you to a direction, why is it away from the moment? None of my meditation teachers taught in this way so I dont quite know who you are referring to. S> And "who" does "what"?! If there is not understanding of what is going on, is this the `cause' leading to the correct `result'? Is this encouraging of blind faith and the following of rites and rituals? Dont quite understand you here. The reference to rites and rituals in the suttas is to the belief that slaughtering live stock would get you to heaven and not about samadhi bhavana in the 'formal' systematic way of regarding sense impressions i.e. 4 foundations of mindfulness. ----------------------------------------------------- >E: Sukin, please, I am saying it is both. Study and > practice. I am not saying that contemplation is > not needed or secondary for that matter. But when > push comes to shove, you are going to have to leave > all of this theorizing behind. Either you will > intend to do it via meditation or death will force you! Sukin; Yes theorizing is an annoying habit, but I don't believe in it. But there is no control over what will arise as long as conditions for wrong view and other akusala are still present. The concept of `meditation' as I see it can in fact be a product of such theorizing. Like any other subject. S> When there is any panna arising in the moment, there is no idea about what to "do", because panna, unlike lobha, detaches. I am with you. S> Pariyatti as often expressed here, is panna, though of the very basic level. It is the correct understanding in terms of conceptual description, of what is happening NOW. But then all you 'know' is the conceptual Matrix of NOW and not "NOW". S> To know that what one understands about the moment is `conceptual' and that it is conditioned is already panna at work. Sure ,work like a description of work and not the 'real' work. That has not started yet. We are kind of in school still. We have not even looked in the 'want ads' yet (pun intended). :-) S> To want something more is the work of `lobha' or else a misunderstanding of the Teachings. So you feel there are no wholesome aspirations? S> Also not knowing that pariyatti is *not* about words but a level of understanding, one may reason that one must leave all this behind and directly `look', meditate. Above you say it is words and now you say it is not? So which is it? S> But this is wrong understanding of the moment, conceptually, and instead believing in a concept of `doing something', where a `self' is projected into a future state. Yep, that is how it starts. Then maybe you find you are not in Kansas anymore (reference to the Wizard of Oz). S> One starts with self view and ends up feeding it further with any consequent illusion of result. That is one possiblility. But there is much to realize if you are honest at this point and you see this in action and not merely think this thru. You realize, 'holy shit, I have been deluding myself my whole life!'. This is a big turning point if 'felt' in ones bones or ones guts. There can be great joy here too. Because identity view is being dismantled and many burdens related to 'self' are being dropped. Many fears and doubts can fall away at this time. S> No one can decide to leave any `theory' behind. Practice as in patipatti, just knows a reality, and if that be `thinking', then naturally there is detachment. So you say. But I feel there is right aspiration. S> But the same applies to any reality, even jhana cittas must be seen with satipatthana. Indeed, but one must see them not from the veil of conceptualization but thru direct perception. One must first cultivate the jhanas and then see this, otherwise all this is just more thought and talk. You know, 'the commentators said...blah, blah, blah'. S> I think the idea that one can and must decide to do away with theory, is a misunderstanding not only of the significance of the relationship between pariyatti, patipatti and pativedha, but also from *not* knowing the moment and having instead only a wrong view of it. When you are ready, via death or your own Right Intentions you will see it is the Right thing to do. It is scary because that is all we know but a new type of 'food' will eventually feed the mind or spirit. You will eat kilesa for breakfast lunch and dinner till there are none left! S> Regarding urgency at the time of death, I don't know what I will do, maybe out of `fear' I might think about meditation. :-( But this would be due to self-attachment and lack of confidence. What was the Buddha doing on the eve of his enlightenment? What was he doing when he died? -------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------ But I agree with you that what is described in the books is not important as compared to the experience of the realities which any Right book will refer to. ;-) You must be married to a librarian! ------------------------------------------------- > S> You seem to object to `theory', but do you really believe we can > get away from any theory? I think we start with some kind of > conclusion, dwell on them and reinforce them all the time. And if we > have had any experiences and do not check if this is consistent with > the Buddha's teachings, then I believe that it becomes increasingly > hard to get on the right track. E> Again, I am not objecting to theory! But it just > has lost its taste in my mouth. I want the fruit > and no longer pale anemic descriptions of it! Sukin: I think you need to reexamine your understanding of what pariyatti means. It is a possibilty. PEACE E 36726 From: Date: Tue Sep 21, 2004 4:12pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. Intro Visuddhimagga XIV, 101. Hi Nina, So, consciousness of red is kamma result but red is not. Also, mind door consciousness of red is not kamma result. What about a gift? A gift is not kamma result and consciousness of a gift is not kamma result. If someone gives you a dollar, only the color etc. of the dollar is kamma result, the value is not and the concept "gift" is not. It seems like there must be more to kamma than citta process. What else is there (that creates kamma) besides citta process? Is this something else ultimately real? Is there such a phenomenon as conventional/nonultimately-real kamma? Is it governed by conditionality? Also, don't you think it is a little hedonistic to say pleasant bodily feeling is always the result of kusala kamma and unpleasant bodily feeling is always the result of akusala kamma? Larry 36727 From: plnao Date: Tue Sep 21, 2004 4:26pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Deeds of merit - generosity and cittas that arise from it Hello all Just reread this passage from the previous post in this thread and got it a little better. S "each time we give something away we should know whether, as a consequence, few kusala cittas and many akusala cittas arise, or whether there are more kusala cittas arising than akusala cittas K.Sujin is reminding us here that there are always kusala and akusala cittas arising behind an act. The only question is where the preponderance is. The first time I read it I misunderstood it to mean that we should know whether there is kusala or akusala, as thought it would be one or the other. Knowing that would be beyond me now, and it's not the way it works anyways, except in one unimaginably small moment that is already gone. Preponderance of kusala and akusala is a little easier to understand. Are there few kusala cittas and many akusala or more kusala than akusala? Since we know akusala outnumbers kusala, for worldlings, it might be right to start by assuming the former, but stay open to the possibility of the latter, and grateful to the Buddha who teaches the way to make that possibilty a reality. Maybe we should see the ethical implications of an act as a momentary balance sheet rather than one citta that can be pinpointed? Metta, Phil 36728 From: Herman Hofman Date: Tue Sep 21, 2004 4:39pm Subject: RE: [dsg] OK, Abhidharma Hi Nina, You wrote: =========== As to the expression wrong view, this refers to the wrong view of annihilation view and so on. N: This includes the belief that after death there will not be rebirth. ========== H > I am assured that after death there will be rebirth. In your book I have wrong view. What should I do about that? Kind Regards Herman 36729 From: Date: Tue Sep 21, 2004 4:41pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Anger and craving Hi Duncan, D: "Hello all, I have not been able to check in lately due to a very hectic school schedule and various personal occurrences. I trust you are all well. A question has arisen in my practice and study which I hope can be answered. Does anger arise from craving exclusively, or does anger arise, in some instances, from stimuli in which craving is not a factor? L: In one sense anger can be conditioned by anything. In another sense craving conditions everything in our life. D: "It has become apparent, during deep examination, that if anger arises in my own mind that there is always a root cause of either craving or aversion. Aversion, it seems, is but craving in different clothing, for if 'I' crave this, but do not crave that, 'I' crave no contact with that." L: Actually anger is a manifestation of aversion (dosa) and technically speaking there is no "I" in aversion. Self view and "I" accompany craving (lobha). IMO dukkha is a manifestation of aversion, so the first two noble truths relate directly to craving and aversion and their pervasiveness. I would say desiring to not do etc. is different from aversion. D: "So the question arises: is anger always born of craving, or are there circumstances in which craving plays no part? Please forward any answers deemed appropriate. With metta Duncan" Larry 36730 From: Herman Hofman Date: Tue Sep 21, 2004 4:52pm Subject: RE: [dsg] OK, Abhidharma Hi Nina, That should have had a no in it, like so : I am assured that after death there will be no rebirth. In your book I have wrong view. What should I do about that? You wrote: =========== As to the expression wrong view, this refers to the wrong view of annihilation view and so on. N: This includes the belief that after death there will not be rebirth. ========== H > I am assured that after death there will be rebirth. In your book I have wrong view. What should I do about that? Kind Regards Herman 36731 From: Herman Hofman Date: Tue Sep 21, 2004 5:36pm Subject: RE: Fare the well, friend Herman ( was Re: [dsg] "... as parasites a tree." ???) Hi Joop, Phil, and all, Thanks for this post. It is very clear and precise, and you have identified the issues well. Some more comments below. =========== Joop: Of course you can decide how to spend your energy, Phil. But perhaps the discussion can be made more general: there are two group active in this DSG:  those who know the whole Tipitaka are the words of the Buddha and that the Commentaries are part of the Canon: they ask and give information out of this frame of reference  those who (also, in their own eyes) are Theravadins but think the Pali Canon is the result of a historical process and that some texts are more genuine than other ones, that some texts has to be taken literally and other can be taken metaphorically. The discussion between Sarah and Dighanakha about fundamentalism, as explained by him in # 36543, is another example. Of course these groups are not homogenous, is is a construct. The question is: can the 'members' is these two groups discuss with each other and how, without boring each other and without going in circles? If the answer is yes, there must be some rules (and of course: respect) The reaction on this message will be: what rules do you propose. But first I'm curious if the answer is yes. To be honest: I doubt, as someone who places himself in the second group and is more interested in the future than in the past of Theravada. ========== Like you, I doubt that there will ever be progress in communication between the camps you have identified. I think as long as there is respect between the posters, and no implicit obligation to reply to any post, then we can muddle along. It doesn't concern me if people disagree with my posts, or ignore my posts, or write posts to say they don't like my posts or are going to ignore my posts. As long as I can think scientifically, I will apply scientific standards, and as long as there are post written in terms of higher authority or using transcendental or metaphysical concepts, I will attempt to get rephrasings so I can at least test for truth or reality. Kind Regards Herman 36732 From: Herman Hofman Date: Tue Sep 21, 2004 5:57pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Theory and Practice - Eric Re: Anapanasati/ Sukin Hi Sukin, > > E: I dont agree. The 4NT's were discovered by the Buddha > not invented by him. Sukin: We are talking about the way things are, which is independent of anyone's observation and opinion. So yes the Buddha did not invent the 4NT. But I hesitate to say that he discovered it, since this makes it too easy and does give an impression that the 4NT is out there to be discovered. But only very great `insight' can glimpse the 4NT via developed understanding of the conditioned nature of realities, particularly a firm understanding of anatta. Do you know anyone else who teaches anatta? ------------------------------------------------------- H > There are many people who understand that there is no self at the helm of all that takes place. David Hume, for one, wrote about this at length. It is not a slight on the Buddha to suggest that others come to similar realizations as him, independently. It would be, however, very silly to institute a priesthood to promote the worship of and taking refuge in David Hume. Or to take out a trade-mark on his insights. One of the realities to be discovered is that humans are a group-animal, and that many people can just not function without authority figures, the leaders of the pack. Being an island unto yourself and knowing the Dhamma for yourself is just not an attractive proposition for most. For these people the preference is to be told what to think and what to do, and the idea that insight is transcendental and unattainable for themselves is very comforting. Kind Regards Herman 36733 From: robmoult Date: Tue Sep 21, 2004 6:40pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Kamma Hi Nina / Rob K / Sarah / Dan / Herman / Larry (and others...) For those of you who have not been following this thread, it started with my discussion with Dan & Herman. This prompted me to explore asynchronous kamma condition in more detail and I was surprised by what I found (see my post 26715). Nina replied to my post in her post 36715 and now this is my reply to Nina. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > Hi Rob M, > I like your questions and remarks, an opportunity to consider more. > op 20-09-2004 16:04 schreef robmoult op rob.moult@j...: > > > K. Sujin says that only when all of the conditions recorded in the > > Atthasalini (Vol I, Book I, Part III, Chapter V "Discourse on > > Courses of Immoral Action" and Chapter VI "Discourse on Courses of > > Moral Action") are present will kamma be created. K. Sujin says that > > if all of these conditions are not met, then kamma is not created > > (but accumulations are reinforced in all cases). > N: We have to be careful here quoting K. Sujin. Especially as to the last > sentence. There can be misunderstandings about what K. Sujin said. Let us > look again. ===== Sarah and I have gone over this point a couple of times (I have not discussed this with K. Sujin directly). I may have misunderstood Sarah. Sarah, please help me out here. ===== > R: My understanding was that all volitional actions created kamma but > > when the conditions recorded in the Atthasalini were present, the > > kamma created was strong enough to condition the rebirth linking > > citta. > N: No doubt. I am inclined to say instead of: creating, : actions motivated > by kamma or volition. I take cetanaa and kamma to be the same, as is stated > in the suttas. > When not all factors are present as recorded in the Atth., but the akusala > is intense it could produce result in the course of life. ===== I think that we are in agreement here but my interpretation of Sarah's interpretation of K. Sujin's comments differs from this. Again, I ask Sarah to help me understand better. ===== > I prefer not to specify, since these things are not specified in the > teachings. Thus: I would not say: every akusala citta produces result. But > rather: when the intensity of akusala is such that it can produce result, it > can produce result depending on conditons. I tend to keep the intensity more > general, because who knows? ===== Even though I tend to generalize :-), I would agree that it is wrong to say that every akusala citta produces a result. I like the way that you positioned this. ===== > R: I checked some Suttas on kamma and they all seem to talk about > > rebirth but never about kamma ripening during a lifetime. ... > N: Yes, they do, take the story of MahaaMoggallana, as given by Htoo. The > Vinaya can help us, it gives details about degrees of akusala. A monk pushed > his father by accident and the father died. The Buddha asked him: did you > have the intention to kill him? We can understand more the intensities of > akusala. But why should we find out in detail what conditions which vipaaka > at which moment? It is past already, and it is better to understand seeing, > hearing or thinking now, akusala now. ===== I missed Htoo's story about MahaMoggallana. I agree that there are examples of intensities of cetana. I guess what I am looking for is a Sutta where the Buddha said that a specific incident during an existence (i.e. not a rebirth) was a result of kamma (as distinct from accumulations). ===== > R:U Silananda's lecture notes went into more detail on > > asynchronous kamma (Nanakkhanika-kamma)condition: > N: Yes, many of these are in the Vis. studies and the Tiika. > Also about the factors that make kusala kamma inferior. Exactly. > > > R: Here are some observations on this table: > > > > 1. Dosa-mula cittas and moha-mula cittas do not create kamma! > N:Dosa-mula cittas can be very intense, they can motivate evil deeds. As to > moha-mula cittas, yes they can. Even the type that is accompanied by > uddhacca, restlessness can produce vipaaka in the course of life. We talked > about this with A. Sujin. When akusala kamma is committed, say, by lobha, it > can produce result as rebirth-consciousness. But in between committing a bad > deed there are also moha-muula-cittas accompanied by restlessness and these > also can produce result, but only in the course of life. > The Tiika to Vis. XIV, 93: : twelve kinds of akusala cittas also take any object among the six objects > and arise immediately after the mind-consciousness-element that is the > rootless kiriyacitta accompanied by indifferent feeling, > and that they arise committing kamma, performing deeds through the three > doors of body etc. as the occasion presents itself, such as the course of > action that is killing and so on. > > N: The twelve types of akusala cittas arise after the mind-door > adverting-consciousness which is a rootless kiriyacitta (the > mind-consciousness-element, mano-vinnñaa.na-dhaatu). > They can perform kamma through the three doors of body, speech and mind. > > Tiika: > Excluding here the consciousness rooted in ignorance and accompanied by > restlessness, the other eleven types of unwholesome consciousness produce > rebirth-consciousness in the four unhappy planes and they produce also > result in the course of life in a happy plane. > However, consciousness rooted in ignorance and accompanied by restlessness > produces result only in the course of life.> ===== U Silananda's chart seems to indicate that only cetana in lobha-mula cittas can condition results according to asynchronous kamma condition. You have quoted Tiikas indicating that this is incorrect. U Narada's Guide to Conditional Relations, Chapter IV, page 197 - 205, "Detailed Explanation of Asynchronous Kamma" has a lot of detail on this. I haven't read it all yet, but glancing at the chart on page 198, I see that: - 11 faulty volitions exclusive of restlessness can cause rebirth in the four lower planes - 12 faulty volitions can arise during life in the sensous or the fine material spheres It would appear that U Narada's presentation agrees with the Tiika and contradicts U Silananda's chart. On the other hand, I hesitate to jump to the conclusion that U Silananda was wrong because: - This is not a simple typo, this is a very different interpretation of kamma - U Silananda is a respected authority on Abhidhamma and compiled these notes carefully (I have a list of erratta compiled later; they are primarily typos) The position that I am going to take at this point is that I have misunderstood U Silananda's chart. Somebody recently passed me a complete set of Abhidhamma lectures (I think it is about 80 hours in MP3 format) by U Silananda. I will try to find the talk where he discusses asynchronous kamma condition. ===== > > R: 2. It would appear as though a past lobha-mula citta conditions > > rebirth linking into a woeful state (bhavanga is akusala vipaka > > upekkha santirana) and that it is only during a woeful existence > > will the 7 akusala vipaka cittas (5 sense consciousness + receiving > > + investigating) arise as a result of the same lobha-mula citta > > which propelled one into that state! > N: When I said to K. Sujin: the same kamma, she said: do not specify. > This is more careful, we have to be very careful. The same for kusala kamma. > But we find in the Sutta that the Buddha said that an act of generosity > could produce many happy rebirths. He said not to despise generosity. But > for each case, we cannot specify. ===== This all started with a discussion with Dan and Herman of the sense door citta process. We used the example of a tree falling on a leg causing pain. I said the following: - the tree fell due to many natural conditions, but kamma was not involved - there was a tactile object (a rupa) as part of "tree" and body sensitivity (another rupa) as part of "leg" together and this was a condition for body consciousness citta to arise - because the nature of the rupa was inherently undesireable, the body consciousness which arose is of the "akusala vipaka" type and there was unpleasant bodily feeling - this was followed by receiving citta and investigating citta, both of these also carrying the label "akusala vipaka" (and both with neutral mental feeling) The question that Dan (and I) are stuck on is this: The body sensitivity citta, the receiving citta and the investigating citta are all "vipaka"; this means that they are the result of some past citta. Are these three vipaka cittas similar to the bhavanaga cittas (i.e. all the resultant of the kamma which conditioned rebirth) or are these three vipaka cittas the result of some past action not associated with rebirth. If these three cittas are the result of some past action not associated with rebirth, what is the nature of the relationship? When the tree fell on the leg: - the arising of the tangible object rupa ("the tree") has nothing to do with kamma - body sensitivity rupa ("the leg") is produced by kamma; the kamma which propelled us into this existence. The object of the sense door citta process has nothing to do with kamma; the object arises because of other conditions. However, it is the arising of the object which is a condition for the sense door process to arise. ===== > R: It now > > appears as though all these vipaka cittas throughout the entire > > existence are the result of the same javana citta which propelled > > one into this existence! > N: See above. Why should we know which kamma? ===== I am not trying to understand which specific kamma (as the Sutta says, that would drive one crazy). ===== > R: This is a completely new understanding of kamma and it appears as > > though K. Sujin may have been correct! > N: She did not say what you said above. She just gave a warning: do not > specify. > But if every akusala citta is also akusala kamma, that is going very far! ===== I agree that saying that every akusala citta creates kamma is going too far. My understanding (Sarah, please clarify) is that K. Sjuin's position is that NO akusala citta creates kamma unless all the conditions are present. ===== > When seeing now, then reading and thinking of the meaning of the letters, > this is done with akusala citta when there is no dana, sila or bhavana. > Defining meanings, the same. It is good to remember that we are thinking a > lot and mostly with akusala citta. Thus, that akusala cittas are countless. > But imagine if all such moments were akusala kamma bringing a result! Then > we, laypeople, would have to live like the monks, and that is unnatural for > us. No jokes, no laughing, no icecream (as Rob K said). > What K. Sujin says about samalobha (normal lobha) and visamalobha (harmful > lobha) makes sense to me. But I would not specify which is which exactly, > where the borderline is. ===== Ooops, the other day I did a dana and served a group of monks ice- cream :-) Metta, Rob M :-) 36734 From: robmoult Date: Tue Sep 21, 2004 6:43pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. Intro Visuddhimagga XIV, 101. Hi Larry, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@w... wrote: > So, consciousness of red is kamma result but red is not. Also, mind door > consciousness of red is not kamma result. What about a gift? A gift is > not kamma result and consciousness of a gift is not kamma result. If > someone gives you a dollar, only the color etc. of the dollar is kamma > result, the value is not and the concept "gift" is not. It seems like > there must be more to kamma than citta process. What else is there (that > creates kamma) besides citta process? Is this something else ultimately > real? Is there such a phenomenon as conventional/nonultimately-real > kamma? Is it governed by conditionality? > > Also, don't you think it is a little hedonistic to say pleasant bodily > feeling is always the result of kusala kamma and unpleasant bodily > feeling is always the result of akusala kamma? We are asking many of the same questions. You might want to look at my message 36669, Nina's reply 36715 and my latest reply. Metta, Rob M :-) 36735 From: Herman Hofman Date: Tue Sep 21, 2004 7:34pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Kamma Hi Rob, I appreciate your line of reasoning, but cannot comment, cuz I just don't know. But you might be able to help me with something I have been trying to determine from another source. You wrote: ============= If these three cittas are the result of some past action not associated with rebirth, what is the nature of the relationship? When the tree fell on the leg: - the arising of the tangible object rupa ("the tree") has nothing to do with kamma - body sensitivity rupa ("the leg") is produced by kamma; the kamma which propelled us into this existence. The object of the sense door citta process has nothing to do with kamma; the object arises because of other conditions. However, it is the arising of the object which is a condition for the sense door process to arise. ===== It is often said, and I accept, that rupa, nama and sense-base all depend on each other. Do they exist independently of each other? There is no emphasis on existence in my question, more on how an unarisen sense-door would "know" that there was a rupa to sense? Kind Regards Herman 36736 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Sep 21, 2004 9:06pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: function, manifestation, etc. Hi Howard, I can't help laughing. I do not think in the way of positions at all, life is too short for that!! When you write something, even if it is far away from me, I do not mind, but I find it a good idea for myself to consider. I am also grateful for several points to stressed, and for some suttas you gave, like the Removal of Distracting Thoughts. I miss the sutta threads because I do not have enough time reading suttas, although I should make time for that. BTW I liked your description of the ordination in Cambodia. Nina. op 21-09-2004 08:24 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: > I'm not entirely certain that there may not be some mutual > misunderstanding of our positions, and that perhaps we are further apart that > it seems. > But I must say that I do find the apparent agreement quite pleasant, and so I > will enjoy it while I can! ;-) 36737 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Sep 21, 2004 9:06pm Subject: Re: [dsg] The present moment. Hi Howard, op 21-09-2004 18:03 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: > I wouldn't quite put it as you do, however, in saying "Seeing just > sees". I wouldn't put it that way, because the language suggests to me seeing > being a thing which does something - seeing being an agent. I do not view it > that > way. Seeing is not a thing that does something. It is the doing. Instead of > saying "Seeing just sees," I would be more inclined to say "Seeing is just > seeing," or, better, to say nothing at all. ;-) N: This makes me think of Matt's post. I read here many wordings about seeing, but you also realize that these are words, better say nothing. And Matt says: this He brings us back to the present moment and that is what matters. Nina. 36738 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Sep 21, 2004 9:06pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Rob M: "...carries the label 'akusala'" Hi Rob M, See my post today. See below. op 21-09-2004 16:50 schreef robmoult op rob.moult@j...: > This is not without precedent. The eye-sensitivity rupa is produced > by kamma. The eye-sensitivity rupa arises and falls away billions of > times each second. Each new existence of eye-sensitivity rupa is > created by kamma. But for a given existence, all the eye-sensitivity > rupas produced come from the same kamma; the kamma that propelled us > into this existence. N: This was the point Kh Sujin cautioned me: do not specify which kamma. If we think too much about it, it distracts us from understanding this very moment, like seeing, which is vipaka. Nina. 36739 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Sep 21, 2004 9:06pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Deeds of merit - generosity and cittas that arise from it Hello Phil, op 21-09-2004 15:36 schreef plnao op plnao@j...: > In the same way, panna will know if there is kusala > or akusala. But our panna is still weak, not developed. Thus again a > reminder to patience. We will not know tomorrow whether there is kusala or > akusala arising from an act of giving. My current policy is to assume there > is both, coming and going in rapid succession. Panna will develop in a way > that allows better understanding of what is going in behind an act of > giving. N: That's it. Pañña will know precisely, but it can still be known more generally, or afterwards by reasoning. That is good too. Before we did not know at all. I like your example of the garbage. Formerly you might have been irritated or speak words with irritation. But we never know conditions ahead of time. Nina. 36740 From: Date: Tue Sep 21, 2004 5:40pm Subject: Re: [dsg] The present moment. Hi, Nina - In a message dated 9/22/04 12:06:47 AM Eastern Daylight Time, nilo@e... writes: > Hi Howard, > > op 21-09-2004 18:03 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: > > >I wouldn't quite put it as you do, however, in saying "Seeing just > >sees". I wouldn't put it that way, because the language suggests to me > seeing > >being a thing which does something - seeing being an agent. I do not view > it > >that > >way. Seeing is not a thing that does something. It is the doing. Instead of > >saying "Seeing just sees," I would be more inclined to say "Seeing is just > >seeing," or, better, to say nothing at all. ;-) > N: This makes me think of Matt's post. I read here many wordings about > seeing, but you also realize that these are words, better say nothing. And > Matt says: this the sense door right now.> He brings us back to the present moment and that > is what matters. > Nina. > > ============================ I join you in applauding Matt's post. I like it very much, pointing directly, as it does, to what is of key importance - to what is real. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 36741 From: robmoult Date: Tue Sep 21, 2004 9:48pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Kamma Hi Herman, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Herman Hofman" wrote: > It is often said, and I accept, that rupa, nama and sense-base all > depend on each other. Do they exist independently of each other? There > is no emphasis on existence in my question, more on how an unarisen > sense-door would "know" that there was a rupa to sense? Sense base is a type of rupa, so your first question simplifies to, "do nama and rupa exist independently of each other?" or to put it another way, "if a tree falls in a forest but there is none to hear it, does the sound exist?" My answer is ... (drum roll please)... "this is outside the scope of the Buddha's teaching". This question is formulated as an ontological, phenomenological question. The Buddha's focus was not on defining realities but rather on the mind (mind is what creates conditions conducive to the holy life and what brings us closer to Nibbana); see Culamalunkya Sutta (Mn 63) and Simsapa Sutta (SN LVI.31). The mind often takes rupas as object and when this happens, rupas fall under the scope of the Buddha's teaching. What happens to rupas when they are not interacting with the mind is not of concern to the Buddha; this is the type of speculative question the Buddha refused to answer. Your second question is how an unarisen sense-door would "know" that there was a rupa to sense. There are many laws of nature in this universe but the Buddha only focused on those relevant to the goal of His teachings. For example, the Buddha never talked about gravity. Why did the Buddha choose not to talk about the nature of gravity? Because understanding the nature of gravity does not lead to the holy life or to Nibbana (see Sutta references above). Let us look in more detail at the beginning of the sense door process (to keep it simple, I will not go into sub-moments). t = 0 ===== The tactile object rupa and the body sensitivity rupa do not yet exist. The mind is in experiencing a bhavanga citta t = 1 ===== The tactile object rupa and the body sensitivity rupa come into existence. The tactile object rupa arises because of temperature and it is governed by natural laws which are outside the scope of the Buddha's teaching. The body sensitivity rupa arises because of kamma; the same kamma which drove you into this existence causes this rupa to arise. The mind is experiencing another bhavanga citta. It is the same as the previous bhavanga citta. This new bhavanga citta is given the name "past bhavanga" merely to designate it's place in the sense door process. t = 2 ===== The tactile object rupa and the body sensitivity rupa are interacting with each other. The nature of this interaction is not explained in the Patthana. The Patthana goes into lots of detail about how things interact, but it does not give any description of how matter interacts with other matter. The Patthana details how mind interacts with matter, how matter interacts with mind, etc. but is silent on how matter interacts with matter (matter interacting with matter would cover the laws of physics, chemistry and biology ... outside of the scope of the Buddha's teachings). These two rupas are interacting and the interaction could be strong or weak. What would make the interaction strong vs. weak? A number of items (all outside the scope of the Buddha's teaching). For example, the touch of a light breeze (weak interaction) vs. the touch of a tree falling on my leg (strong interaction). If the interaction is very strong, we can classify the object as "very great" whereas weaker interactions give rise to "great", "slight" or "very slight" objects. The mind is experiencing another bhavanga citta. It is the same as the previous bhavanga cittas. If there is strong interaction going on between the two rupas (i.e. a "very great object"), this new bhavanga citta is given the name "vibrating bhavanga". The commentary gives the analogy of rice on a surface of a drum. If you tap your finger on the side of the drum skin, the rice will jump up because of the vibration. Your finger never touched the rice but the rice reacted to the interaction between your finger and the drum skin. If the interaction between the two rupas is weaker, then the label applied to the bhavanga citta being experienced by the mind is still experencing "past bhavanga". t = 3 ===== The tactile object rupa and the body sensitivity rupa continue to interact with each other. The mind is experiencing another bhavanga citta. It is the same as the previous bhavanga cittas. If there is strong interaction going on between the two rupas (i.e. a "very great object"), this new bhavanga citta, which follows the "vibrating bhavanga" is given the name "arresting bhavanga". The commentary gives the analogy that if a runner is told to stop, they still need to take one step after hearing the command before they actually stop. If the interaction between the rupas is strong, but not as strong as for a "very great object", then a "vibrating bhavanga" citta arises and the object is called "great object". t = 4 ===== The tactile object rupa and the body sensitivity rupa continue to interact with each other. In the case of a "very great object", the tactile object rupa becomes the object of the mind. In the case of a "very great object", the falling away of the "arresting bhavanga" is a condition for the arising of a five- sense-door adverting citta with neutral feeling. The five sense door adverting citta is functional (kiriya), it does not create kamma nor is it the result of past kamma. The role of the five sense door adverting citta is to control the flow of the mind. When the mind starts to concentrate, one-pointedness comes into play. The mind concentrates attention on the source of the disturbance to the flow of bhavanga. Concentration of attention turns the mind toward the external object. Attention makes the mind different from the previous (bhavanga) mind by controlling the mind to advert to the new object. In the case of a "great object", things are delayed by one or two moments (depending on the strength of the interaction). If the interaction between the two rupas is so weak that it takes the duration of three moments or more for the vibrating bhavanaga to arise, then the object is called "slight" (for "very slight objects", there is no sense door adverting citta at all). t = 5 ===== The tactile object rupa and the body sensitivity rupa continue to interact with each other. In the case of a "very great object" or a "great object", the tactile object rupa is the object of the mind. Conditions supporting the arising of a sense-consciousness citta include: - Falling away of the five-sense-door adverting citta - Door at which the object appears (eye, ear, nose, tongue, body); the six senses (including mind) are called doors as they are way that rupas enter into the process - Intrinsic quality of the object (undesirable, neutral, desirable); most rupas are intrinsically neutral, exceptions include a very hot temperature (undesirable) or the sight of a Buddha (desirable) Based on the door and intrinsic quality of the object, one of the ten sense-consciousness mental states will arise: - An undesirable object will cause akusala vipaka cittas to arise - A neutral object or a desirable object supports the arising of kusala vipaka cittas The sense-consciousness citta has the function of seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting or touching. This is "pure sensing"; there is no processing of the sensory input. The eye-consciousness citta has eye sensitivity as a base; it is located in the physical eye. Other sense-consciousness cittas have their respective sense organs (ear, nose, tongue, body) as a base. Cittas other than the ten sense-consciousness cittas are supported by the "heart-base". In the original Abhidhamma texts, this was "the matter that the mind element is based upon". In classical India, it was believed that the mind was centered in the heart (not the brain). The writers of the commentaries, following the tradition at the time (but not the Buddha's words), called this the "heart-base" (FYI: some on DSG do not agree with my position on heart-base). Herman, this was probably far more than you were asking for, so I will cut it off here. Metta, Rob M :-) 36742 From: robmoult Date: Tue Sep 21, 2004 9:53pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Rob M: "...carries the label 'akusala'" Hi Nina, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > N: This was the point Kh Sujin cautioned me: do not specify which kamma. If > we think too much about it, it distracts us from understanding this very > moment, like seeing, which is vipaka. In other words, we should analyze... but not too much :-) :-) In seriousness, I agree with you on the importance of avoiding "analysis paralysis". Metta (and appreciation), Rob M :-) 36743 From: Date: Tue Sep 21, 2004 5:54pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: function, manifestation, etc. Hi, Nina - In a message dated 9/22/04 12:22:19 AM Eastern Daylight Time, nilo@e... writes: > BTW I liked your description of the ordination in Cambodia ===================== I'm happy to hear that. BTW, I didn't make myself clear when I spoke of the ordination being at a "Cambodian wat". It IS "Cambodian" in tradition and in terms of the senior monks, but it is located in the United States. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 36744 From: robmoult Date: Tue Sep 21, 2004 10:15pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Kamma Hi Nina / Rob K / Sarah / Dan / Herman / Larry (and others...), --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" wrote: > For those of you who have not been following this thread, it started > with my discussion with Dan & Herman. This prompted me to explore > asynchronous kamma condition in more detail and I was surprised by > what I found (see my post 26715). Nina replied to my post in her > post 36715 and now this is my reply to Nina. Oops, my original post was 36669. I am sure that is what I typed... Perhaps Mara decided to switch some zeros into ones at Yahoo! to slow our path to enlightenment :-) :-) Metta, Rob M :-) 36745 From: kenhowardau Date: Tue Sep 21, 2004 10:37pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Picking up thread with Ken and Robert (was The Buddha as physician) Hi Matt, I was giving my explanation of something Robert K had written: ------------ KenH: > > The learned trainee does not think, "It is not good enough to know lobha as lobha, I must set up the conditions for alobha." That would, as Robert has said, indicate a lack of faith in the Dhamma - a lack of faith in the efficacy of knowing dhammas as they are. > > ------------ Matt: > I am fine with this. > ---------------- I thought you would be. You had simply misunderstood what Robert was saying. ---------------- Ken H: > > That learned trainee might entertain the thought, "I do not like lobha, therefore I will have alobha instead." If so, he will have the opportunity for knowing lobha as lobha. > > ---------------- Matt: > Would a learned trainee have such thoughts; Aversion (dosa) towards lobha and desire (lobha) for alobha? I would have thought it is wisdom that conditions alobha not dosa and lobha. > ---------------- Hopefully, this is just another misunderstanding. A trainee (ariyan disciple) who is not a Non-returner can have lobha and dosa, can he not? That's all I meant by having him say, "I do not like alobha, therefore I shall have alobha instead." I know a Sotapanna can have desire for sense pleasures, but now you've got me worried! Was I right in assuming he could have desire for mental objects, such as alobha? Ken H --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "matt roke" wrote: > Hi Ken and Robert, > > Thank you for your reply Ken. > My apologies for taking so long to answer you, I have limited time. > > ============================== > ============================== > > Robert> Yet don't we reveal our lack of confidence in the Dhamma by > trying to change conditions rather than understanding them. > > ============================== > > I think I may have misunderstood what Robert was saying here. I > think there was some mention of "cleansing" and that led me to take > his point the wrong way. > > ========================= > ========================= > > KenH> The learned trainee 36746 From: Date: Tue Sep 21, 2004 10:39pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. Intro Visuddhimagga XIV, 101. Hi Rob, R: "We are asking many of the same questions. You might want to look at my message 36669, Nina's reply 36715 and my latest reply." L: I doubt if there is a canonical or commentarial answer to most of these questions. My own speculative answer is that everything is kamma result but because some dhammas perform functions beyond a passive resultant function they are designated differently. I can see root consciousnesses as being both results of kamma and creators of kamma. I think contact has to be kamma result, so anything that is contacted is kamma result. However, functional consciousness doesn't seem to fit into this scheme. It is my understanding that "functional" by definition is outside the whole kamma process. So there's a problem. Also there is a vast unresolved murkiness concerning concept and reality. Larry 36747 From: dighanakha Date: Tue Sep 21, 2004 11:15pm Subject: Re: "... as parasites a tree." ??? Hello Robert. Dig>> Sure, the verses are considered to be in the Tipitaka and Dig>> the stories are Commentary. I don't think there's any Dig>> controversy about that. But as far as the sexist material Dig>> goes this doesn't help us much because there is actually Dig>> more misogyny in the verses than in the stories. Dig>> then come the verses informing us that we should expect this Dig>> behaviour from ALL women, along with recommendations that Dig>> ALL women should be despised, avoided, distrusted, and Dig>> disbelieved. So the point of my question above is that this Dig>> material, though supposedly approved by the ancient arahant Dig>> theras and the Great Commentator Buddhaghosa, is seriously Dig>> at odds with what is taught about women in the other Nikayas Dig>> of the Sutta Pitaka, and seriously disconfirmed by reality Dig>> (it only takes one exception to falsify a universal Dig>> proposition, e.g. one woman who occasionally speaks the Dig>> truth). R> Does Buddhaghosa say absolutely that all women are to be thought R> of in this way? What I wrote above is that it is the verses that make this claim, not Buddhaghosa. In his word-commentary on the verses Buddhaghosa usually only remarks on points of grammar and word definitions. The verses' statements about women are passed over in silence. I have, however, found one exception in the Kunala Jataka, where Buddhaghosa mitigates the cuckoo's statement slightly (there may be others, but it would require a lot of work to go looking for them). Commenting on the verse: "As all rivers meander, As all forests are made of wood, So all women would do evil When given the opportunity." Buddhaghosa says: " 'All women' means that all women, excepting those whose defilements have been reduced by insight, would do evil." "Opportunity" he then explains as meaning whenever a woman can find a private place large enough to conceal herself and another. Sincerely, Dighanakha Nutcracker To Sarah & Jon, Thank you for your replies. I will answer shortly, but I am doing it in chronological order. _____________________________ Truly, Master Gotama, I am of this persuasion, of this view: 'everything is not pleasing to me.' (Dighanakha Sutta) 36749 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Sep 22, 2004 0:01am Subject: Re: [dsg] Kamma (re-post - use this one.) HI RobM, I'm in a rush today, but a few very quick comments here. --- robmoult wrote: > > > K. Sujin says that only when all of the conditions recorded in > the > > > Atthasalini (Vol I, Book I, Part III, Chapter V "Discourse on > > > Courses of Immoral Action" and Chapter VI "Discourse on Courses > of > > > Moral Action") are present will kamma be created. K. Sujin says > that > > > if all of these conditions are not met, then kamma is not created > > > (but accumulations are reinforced in all cases). .... S: I've never put it quite like this or quoted K.Sujin as doing so. Maybe better if you quote from one of my posts;-) Whenever I quote K.Sujin or even paraphrase, I'm extremely careful to get it right from quoted notes or a tape. Actually, I'd be glad to have any quotes/paraphrases I gave a couple of years ago especially re-quoted. .... > > N: We have to be careful here quoting K. Sujin. Especially as to > the last > > sentence. There can be misunderstandings about what K. Sujin said. > Let us > > look again. > > ===== > > Sarah and I have gone over this point a couple of times (I have not > discussed this with K. Sujin directly). I may have misunderstood > Sarah. Sarah, please help me out here. > > ===== > > > R: My understanding was that all volitional actions created kamma .... S: This is the point you've made repeatedly and which as you say I've repeatedly rejected;-). In discussions with K.Sujin she's been very strong in her dismissal of the notion too and when we've discussed texts on the matter she's referred to the points on the different conditions and the three rounds (vatta) I've often reported back. Also, she's often referred to kamma-patha in this context. However, I've always been careful to avoid making a categorical statement like yours above to say that *only* when all the conditions pertaining to kamma-patha are in place will there be kamma bringing results. I've always left a little grey area (mainly to allow for my own limited understanding here), but I quite understand your taking the quotes and comments for being rather more black and white than intended or stated by me. As Nina also said 'kamma is not created' would not be my choice of words (or quote of K.Sujin), but I understand what you mean. Nina has addressed this. ... >>(but accumulations are reinforced in all cases). ... S: Yes, this is a correct paraphrase;-). My main point has always been to refute what I see as a sweeping comment about "all volitional actions created kamma ". I've just fished out a very short exchange with K.Sujin from our last visit in which I briefly referred to moha cittas with uddhacca (restlessness), without doubt which Nina mentioned too: *** Sarah: “Moha citta with uddhacca predominating. The Tiika states it cannot produce vipaka in the form of an unhappy rebirth, but “it does procuce vipaka in the course of life by way of unpleasant experiences through the senses”. K Sujin: "When it's not kamma patha, it just accumulates. One kamma - many, many javanas. Moha without doubt - 'part' of kamma. Uddhacca - the weakest akusala." *** S: This was the entire exchange. I won't add my own comments or paraphrase this time, but leave you and the others to make your own;-) Rob, I think it’s really helpful that you’re raising these points and we can also take up any further discussion or grey area qus in India if you like. ..... N: > > I prefer not to specify, since these things are not specified in > the > > teachings. Thus: I would not say: every akusala citta produces > result. But > > rather: when the intensity of akusala is such that it can produce > result, it > > can produce result depending on conditons. I tend to keep the > intensity more > > general, because who knows? > > ===== > R: > Even though I tend to generalize :-), I would agree that it is wrong > to say that every akusala citta produces a result. I like the way > that you positioned this. ... S: All agreed on this definition then I think. Yes, when it comes to the Abhidhamma, we need to be pretty sure before making generalizations. As I’ve said, I’ve been back on this one many times. .... R: > I agree that saying that every akusala citta creates kamma is going > too far. My understanding (Sarah, please clarify) is that K. Sjuin's > position is that NO akusala citta creates kamma unless all the > conditions are present. ... S: Of course there have to be all the right conditions for it to bring a result, but as I’ve said, I’ve been careful to avoid making the categorical statement you have (to allow for my own limited understanding or misunderstanding here) though as you can read from the quote from K.Sujin I just gave, it could be read that way. ... N: > > What K. Sujin says about samalobha (normal lobha) and visamalobha > (harmful > > lobha) makes sense to me. But I would not specify which is which > exactly, > > where the borderline is. ... S: Yes, I agree. When we were in Burma, we had quite a fun discussion on this topic with some direct questions of Shakti’s;-) K.Sujin stressed we cannot specify but ‘we can know for ourselves’ by understanding the cittas involved. That was very helpful for me. Sometimes we try hard to work it out and have black and white answers when really it just depends on the understanding and knowing when such details will just lead to book knowledge only, not to pariyatti. .... > Ooops, the other day I did a dana and served a group of monks ice- > cream :-) ... S: Anumodhana -- samalobha. Thank you for raising this. I’ve chopped lots as I’m running late. Metta, Sarah p.s I very seldom ask Jon for comments on a thread of mine, but he mentioned that all my quotes and paraphrases on this topic have been just as he heard and understood too, having been present for them all. Of course we may both have misheard/misunderstood many of the details. If I come across anything else, I'll let you know. ====== 36750 From: plnao Date: Wed Sep 22, 2004 0:21am Subject: Re: Fare the well, friend Herman ( was Re: [dsg] "... as parasites a tree." ???) Hello Joop, Herman, Robert and all > > Joop: Of course you can decide how to spend your energy, Phil. But > perhaps the discussion can be made more general: there are two group > active in this DSG: >  those who know the whole Tipitaka are the words of the Buddha and > that the Commentaries are part of the Canon: they ask and give > information out of this frame of reference >  those who (also, in their own eyes) are Theravadins but think the > Pali Canon is the result of a historical process and that some texts > are more genuine than other ones, that some texts has to be taken > literally and other can be taken metaphorically. Thanks for laying things out so clearly, Joop. Wouldn't there be a sub-group in the first group? (Later I see you recongize that these groups are not homogenous of course) . Personally, I don't consider the commentaries to be part of the Canon. From what I understand, there are Three Baskets. But I approach the commentaries (well, I've hardly approached them yet) with enormous respect, as I would the writing of a very great teacher. Knowing that for many centuries people have turned to these commentaries adds to my respect. If they were lacking in some way, they would have disappeared by know. I'm sure there were many faulty commentaries that have disappeared. So personally I take the commentaries with the greatest respect, but don't consider them part of the Canon. Now, that could lead to my losing some debates, I suppose, if someone pointed out that a position that is supported in the commentary is not supported in the Canon, but I really doubt that would happen very often. And if I did, I wouldn't dwell on it, to tell the truth. I suppose it could be argued that without the commentaries, the Abhidhamma would be impentrable to modern Buddhist, so the commentaries should be considered part and parcel with Abhidhamma. I don't know if that's true. In any case, until recently, I would have put myself in the second group. As recently as this spring, if I recall correctly, I asked the group why the Buddha's teaching can be taken literally, or how we can assume that it was transcribed correctly, without fudging going on in the ...what were they called....the summits when the monks got together and wrote down the Canon. So I am not coming to my current position without having passed through concern about taking things too literally. Like all of us here, I'm sure, I am horrified by religious fundamentalism. I used to play in a punk band that railed again Christian fundamentalists. And here I am taking a line that could be called a kind of fundamentalism. Interesting how life works out. Now I feel there is power to be gained by taking things literally. The blind faith I mentionned. For example, the question of teaching Abhidhamma in the deva realms. I would have scoffed before. Or said, I don't disbelieve it. Now I believe it. Do I believe it deeply in my heart, in my mind? I don't know and I can't quite explain to you how I believe it. I believe it because the Buddha taught so much that has proven helpful in my life. Confidence gained from proven teachings increases confidence in teachings that I cannot prove. Take bhavanga cittas for example. Herman was asking about them the other day. When I first heard about vibrating bhavanga cittas, and 17 cittas in a process, my rational mind wondered how on earth anyone would know that, and truth be told I thought it sounded a bit silly. What has happened since then? I can't explain it, but now I have confidence that the Buddha did see into processes clearly enough to teach us about them, and though I will probably not know them directly myself (I say probably not because Nina said never say never) I haeve confidence that a bhavanga citta vibrates just before it adverts to the object, or something like that, I forget the details at the moment. This blind faith in bhavanga cittas arises often for me these days in other areas of Dhamma. How many years in an aeon? The first time I read it I thought "yeah, right." Now I know that the Buddha teaches this in a way that is both metaphorically helpful (there is no need to press hard, because if it took the Buddha aeons, it will take me aeons too) and literally true. > Joop: Of course you can decide how to spend your energy, Phil. This is it exactly, Joop. This recent exchange hs confirmed for me something that I had sort of been thinking, though not clearly. My Dhamma discussions here are not just encouraging conversations, informative conversations with kind people of intelligence, as everyone here is. They form a central part of my practice, of my bhavana - my mental development. I have recently experienced many cases in which points I have learned from K Sujin and Nina and others, and have taken note of, arise again during my busy daily life in a way that most certainly helps to cultivate the panna that will gradually eradicate defilements. The example I gave in another thread of what happened when my wife asked me to take out the garbage is just one of hundreds of examples that have arisen since I came to DSG. I think bhavana is like a river, the river described in AN V.51: ""Suppose there were a river, flowing down from the mountains -- going far, its current swift, carrying everything with it -- and a man would open channels leading away from it on both sides, so that the current in the middle of the river would be dispersed, diffused, & dissipated; it wouldn't go far, its current wouldn't be swift, and it wouldn't carry everything with it. In the same way, when a monk has not abandoned these five obstacles, hindrances that overwhelm awareness and weaken discernment, when he is without strength and weak in discernment for him to understand what is for his own benefit..." We know what the hindrances are. So, I see bhavana as this river. I don't know exactly how, but I feel a river is a very suitable metaphor for mental development, and since these discussions at DSG are central to my mental development (I am not a meditator, in this lifetime, though that may change due to conditions) openings off the Bhavana River, if you will, should be avoided. Now there is no question that Herman and you and other people that might be in the second group described above are kind and intelligent people, with sincere devotion to Dhamma - that's obvious - but trying to build a bridge between the two viewpoints would be too much of a restlessness causing thing for me now. That might change. I'm a beginner, and the flow of my Bhavana River is still quite piddling. > The question is: can the 'members' is these two groups discuss with > each other and how, without boring each other and without going in > circles? > If the answer is yes, there must be some rules (and of course: > respect) > > The reaction on this message will be: what rules do you propose. But > first I'm curious if the answer is yes. To be honest: I doubt, as > someone who places himself in the second group and is more interested > in the future than in the past of Theravada Ph: Of course they can and do discuss with each other, and fruitfully. It's just that in my case there are already too many openings off my Bhavana River already. And the baseball playoffs are coming up! And the American election! I hope that at DSG I will focus in the most fruitful possible way for me at this time. Funny you mention rules. After posting to Herman and feeling vaguely guilty about it I thought of a helpful metaphor that reassured myself that I wasn't being neurotic and running away from constructive criticism. I guess you're not a North American, but hopefully you will appreciate this. What if two teams tries to play baseball, and one team thought there should be four bases, and the other three? (Three and two would be better here!) They could play the game, but would the result be good baseball? In any case, thank you for your patient feedback, Joop, and thank you Herman and Robert for your feedback. Metta, Phil 36751 From: plnao Date: Wed Sep 22, 2004 0:53am Subject: Re: Fare the well, friend Herman ( was Re: [dsg] "... as parasites a tree." ???) Thanks Eric! Looks very helpful. Metta, Phil > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/wheels/wheel277.html > > This sutta is not exactly blind as it shows where one has > come from and where faith leads. But then you don't have > complete blind faith as you are studying the Abhidhamma > and you talk of a Middle Way. > > The Middle Way between scepticism and credulity (blind > faith). > > PEACE > > E > 36752 From: Herman Hofman Date: Wed Sep 22, 2004 2:28am Subject: RE: [dsg] Kamma Hi Robert, Thank you very much for this. I really appreciate the time and effort you have taken. The information is very clear, and certainly not too much to digest. In fact, I'm going to ask for a bit more, your time permitting :-). I have snipped all those bits I think I understand. ======= R> t = 1 ===== The tactile object rupa and the body sensitivity rupa come into existence. ===== H > I am not meaning to labour any point, I just want to get it clear to prevent future misunderstandings. Are either of them condition for the other to arise? Are either of them pre-requisites for the other? ===== R > t = 2 ===== The tactile object rupa and the body sensitivity rupa are interacting with each other. The mind is experiencing another bhavanga citta. It is the same as the previous bhavanga cittas. ===== H > Is there any information as to how it comes to be known that rupa and body sense are interacting during bhavanga citta? (I'm assuming bhavanga citta has a different object) ===== R > t = 4 ===== The tactile object rupa and the body sensitivity rupa continue to interact with each other. In the case of a "very great object", the tactile object rupa becomes the object of the mind. ===== H > Again just for clarity of understanding. Is it correct to understand rupa as being material/totally non-mental? I am simply assuming that in the process of becoming a mental object (through a sense door) there is some translation/representation going on. And isn't a rupa unknown until it is sensed/become a mental object? ===== R > Based on the door and intrinsic quality of the object, one of the ten sense-consciousness mental states will arise: - An undesirable object will cause akusala vipaka cittas to arise ===== H > I struggle with the idea that it is a characteristic of an object to be desirable or otherwise. But who is interested in "Mein Kampf" :-) I struggle even more with the idea of a/kusala as a characteristic of a momentary arising, but enough for one day. Again, thank you very much and kind regards Herman 36753 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Sep 22, 2004 2:36am Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner17-Contact /Phassa(c) Dear Friends, Cetasikas by Nina van Gorkom. http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch.1, Contact (Phassa)contd] ***** Phassa is different from what we mean in conventional language by physical contact or touch. When we use the word contact in conventional language we may think of the impingement of something external on one of the senses, for example the impingement of hardness on the bodysense. We may use words such as touching or impingement in order to describe phassa, but we should not forget that phassa is nama, a cetasika which arises together with the citta and assists the citta so that it can experience the object which presents itself through the appropriate doorway. When hardness presents itself through the bodysense there is phassa, contact, arising together with the citta which experiences the hardness. Phassa is not the mere collision of hardness with the bodysense, it is not touch in the physical sense. Impact is the function of phassa in the sense that it assists the citta so that it can cognize the object. Phassa is manifested by coinciding or concurrence, namely, by the coinciding of three factors: physical base (vatthu), object and consciousness. . When there is seeing, there is the coinciding of eye (the eyebase), visible object and seeing-consciousness; through this concurrence phassa, which is in this case eye-contact, is manifested. ***** [Contact (Phassa) to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 36754 From: plnao Date: Wed Sep 22, 2004 3:46am Subject: Re: [dsg] 'Cetasikas' study corner16-Contact /Phassa(b) Hello all > Contact, in Pali: phassa, is mentioned first among the universals. But it is correct that the universals arise simultaneously with the citta, right? Nevertheless, is there an understood order? Arising simultaneously, but - as paradoxical as it sounds - somehow in order? I read this on p.297 of Manual of Abhidhamma (Bhikkhu Bodhi's notes): "Whenever contact occurs, feeling (vedanna) arises simultaneously, conditioned by that same contact." Soon we will see vitakka(sp?) (applied thought) which is described as kind of leaping on to the object if I recall correctly. Is that also "conditioned by that same contact?" Are all the universals "conditioned by that same contact" Do they condition one another. Ah, maybe that's what "co-nascent condition" means. I've heard that term often enough but still haven't gotten around to it. My rational mind wonders how one thing could condition another that happens simultaneously. It would seem there was a sequence of events, however tiny the gap between them. I know this is a "Cetasikas" study corner, so sorry for bringing M Ab into it, and for jumping ahead to other universals. Metta, Phil 36755 From: plnao Date: Wed Sep 22, 2004 4:18am Subject: Deeds of Merit - inclination to practice kusala which is the way of generosity Hello all More from "Deeds of Merit" by Sujin Borharnwanaket" available at http://www.zolag.co.uk/meri1.html K.S Those who have accumulated the inclination to practise the way of kusala which is generosity and who see the benefit of giving as a means to eliminate defilements, will seize each opportunity to develop generosity. After they have performed deeds of generosity they have no regret, no doubt about their deeds; they are not troubled, no matter what happens to them. The reason is that their intention to be generous is pure at the moments before they give, while they are actually giving and after they have given, thus, at these three periods of time the intention or volition is wholesome (snip) Whereas, when someones citta is not firmly established in kusala, regret or worry may arise after his deed of generosity. He is disheartened and troubled, there are more akusala cittas arising than kusala cittas. Such a person is doing more than he is able to, he is overstraining himself. (end quote) Ph: I think this line "those who have accumulated the inclination to practise the way of kusala which is ....." is very interesting. It makes me think about my inclinations towards various ways of practicing kusala. I wonder if they are easy to identify? I'm going to think about it as I cook dinner. Metta, Phil 36756 From: gazita2002 Date: Wed Sep 22, 2004 4:31am Subject: Re: [dsg] Kamma Dear Herman, You asked a few qu. in this post, however I am only attempting to answer one. My head feels like it will explode when I think about how to answer some of these posts, so then I take the easy way out and do nothing, and 'lurk'!!!!! --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Herman Hofman" wrote: > Hi Robert, > > Thank you very much for this. I really appreciate the time and effort > you have taken. The information is very clear, and certainly not too > much to digest. In fact, I'm going to ask for a bit more, your time > permitting :-). I have snipped all those bits I think I understand. > ......snip..... > H > Again just for clarity of understanding. Is it correct to understand > rupa as being material/totally non-mental? Az. Yes rupa is material, it does not 'know' anything. I am simply assuming that in > the process of becoming a mental object (through a sense door) there is > some translation/representation going on. And isn't a rupa unknown until > it is sensed/become a mental object? > Az. A rupa is unknown until it is 'experienced' by a nama, which can 'know' rupa and can also know nama. For example: hardness/softness is a type of rupa, it cannot know anything. The citta which is nama, can know this hardness/softness. When it becomes a mental object is is then already a concept, except when it becomes one of those 'not so classifible objects' as Sarah mentioned before in a not so long ago post. > > I struggle with the idea that it is a characteristic of an object to be > desirable or otherwise. But who is interested in "Mein Kampf" :-) > > I struggle even more with the idea of a/kusala as a characteristic of a > momentary arising, but enough for one day. > > Again, thank you very much and kind regards > > Herman Not sure if these help, Herman but I liked your brain-teaser qu. and it helps me to see where I'm coming from, when I try to answer. Patience, courage and good cheer Azita. 36757 From: robmoult Date: Wed Sep 22, 2004 4:48am Subject: Re: [dsg] Kamma Hi Herman, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Herman Hofman" wrote: > Hi Robert, ===== I almost missed this post... I thought that it was addressed to Rob K (who often goes by "Robert"). I haven't been called "Robert" since I was a kid :-) :-) ===== > > Thank you very much for this. I really appreciate the time and effort > you have taken. The information is very clear, and certainly not too > much to digest. In fact, I'm going to ask for a bit more, your time > permitting :-). I have snipped all those bits I think I understand. > > ======= > > R> > t = 1 > ===== > The tactile object rupa and the body sensitivity rupa come into > existence. > > ===== > > H > I am not meaning to labour any point, I just want to get it clear to > prevent future misunderstandings. Are either of them condition for the > other to arise? Are either of them pre-requisites for the other? ===== There are many types of conditions in the Patthana, but these two rupas are not prerequisites for each other. ===== > > ===== > R > > > t = 2 > ===== > The tactile object rupa and the body sensitivity rupa are > interacting with each other. > > The mind is experiencing another bhavanga citta. It is the same as > the previous bhavanga cittas. > > ===== > H > Is there any information as to how it comes to be known that rupa > and body sense are interacting during bhavanga citta? (I'm assuming > bhavanga citta has a different object) ===== I am not aware of any specific expanation other than the rice on the drum analogy. Yes, the bhavanga have an object from the previous existence. ===== > ===== > R > > > t = 4 > ===== > The tactile object rupa and the body sensitivity rupa continue to > interact with each other. In the case of a "very great object", the > tactile object rupa becomes the object of the mind. > > ===== > > H > Again just for clarity of understanding. Is it correct to understand > rupa as being material/totally non-mental? I am simply assuming that in > the process of becoming a mental object (through a sense door) there is > some translation/representation going on. And isn't a rupa unknown until > it is sensed/become a mental object? > ===== Yes rupa is non-mental in that it does not experience anything. During the sense door process the rupa is the object of cittas, but that does not make it "mental". ===== > R > > > Based on the door and intrinsic quality of the object, one of the > ten sense-consciousness mental states will arise: > - An undesirable object will cause akusala vipaka cittas to arise > > ===== > H > > > I struggle with the idea that it is a characteristic of an object to be > desirable or otherwise. But who is interested in "Mein Kampf" :-) > > I struggle even more with the idea of a/kusala as a characteristic of a > momentary arising, but enough for one day. ===== I gotta rush - there is a monk coming to my house to give a Dhamma talk to about 20 guests in a few minutes so I gotta go play host. If "inherent characteristic" makes you uncomfortable, you are really going to have a hard time with how the Abhidhamma explains that we can determine the intrinsic characteristic... "The Sammohavinodani states that the distinction between the intrinsically desirable and undesriable obtains by way of the average being (majjhima- satta): 'It is distinguishable according to what is found desirable at one time and undesirable at another time by average (men such as) accountants, government officials, burgesses, land owners and merchants.' " (quote from Bhikkhu Bodhi's Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma, p 172. So in brief, we gotta trust accountants, government officials and merchants! We will continue this later... people have arrived. Metta, Rob M :-) 36758 From: gazita2002 Date: Wed Sep 22, 2004 4:52am Subject: Re: [dsg] 'Cetasikas' study corner16-Contact /Phassa(b) Dear Phil, Do you know, I'm often so interested in the Abhidhamma, that I don't fuss too much about the how, when, where or why or even the if of its authenticity - I feel it so explains events in my life and has made me a 'better' person - even if I say so myself :-o --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "plnao" wrote: > > > Hello all > > > Contact, in Pali: phassa, is mentioned first among the universals. > > But it is correct that the universals arise simultaneously with the citta, > right? Nevertheless, is there an understood > order? Arising simultaneously, but - as paradoxical as it sounds - somehow > in order? I read this on p.297 of Manual of Abhidhamma (Bhikkhu Bodhi's > notes): > > "Whenever contact occurs, feeling (vedanna) arises simultaneously, > conditioned by that same contact." > > Soon we will see vitakka(sp?) (applied thought) which is described as kind > of leaping on to the object if I recall correctly. Is that also "conditioned > by that same contact?" Are all the universals "conditioned by that same > contact" Do they condition one another. Ah, maybe that's what "co- nascent > condition" means. I've heard that term often enough but still haven't gotten > around to it. > > My rational mind wonders how one thing could condition another that happens > simultaneously. It would seem there was a sequence of events, however tiny > the > gap between them. I know this is a "Cetasikas" study corner, so sorry for > bringing M Ab into it, and for jumping ahead to other universals. > > Metta, > Phil Azita: I think we often try to fit into our 'rational' minds these concepts [and they are only concepts until truly known by panna]. I think that Conditions may be another good study corner, but not now! Altho I can see that these realities are so interconnected that there will be some cross overs. I have a qu. Has the rupa that will be experienced by the dvi- pancavinnana [seeing consciousness etc] already arisen? is that why there is a vibrating bhavanga? patience, courage and good cheer Azita. 36759 From: gazita2002 Date: Wed Sep 22, 2004 5:15am Subject: Re: [dsg] 'Cetasikas' study corner16-Contact /Phassa(b) Dear Phil [again] I apologise to you, I didn't mean to discourage you from asking qu about conditions. When I reread '....but not now' it sounded a bit rude of me. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "gazita2002" wrote: > Dear Phil, > > Do you know, I'm often so interested in the Abhidhamma, that I > don't fuss too much about the how, when, where or why or even the if > of its authenticity ...snip.... > > by that same contact?" Are all the universals "conditioned by that > same > > contact" azita: all the universals that arise with one citta condition each other then they fall away with that citta, and then the next citta arises with a new set of universals. I suppose that the falling away of one lot may be a condition for the next lot to arise? Do they condition one another. Ah, maybe that's what "co- > nascent > > condition" means. I've heard that term often enough but still > haven't gotten > > around to it. > > > > My rational mind wonders how one thing could condition another that > happens > > simultaneously. It would seem there was a sequence of events, > however tiny > > the > > gap between them. I know this is a "Cetasikas" study corner, so > sorry for > > bringing M Ab into it, and for jumping ahead to other universals. > > > > Metta, > > Phil > > Azita: I think we often try to fit into our 'rational' minds these > concepts [and they are only concepts until truly known by panna]. > > I think that Conditions may be another good study corner, but > not now! ....snip..... patience, courage and good cheer Azita. 36760 From: plnao Date: Wed Sep 22, 2004 5:23am Subject: Re: [dsg] 'Cetasikas' study corner16-Contact /Phassa(b) > Dear Phil [again] > I apologise to you, I didn't mean to discourage you from > asking qu about conditions. When I reread '....but not now' it > sounded a bit rude of me. Not at all, Azita! As it turns out, I was surprised to see how a post that I intended to be one quick question about whether there is any order to the universals turned into such a long thing. More of the unwholesome restlessness that causes me to post too often instead of spending more time with the binders containing responses I have printed out. I still have to get back to that "Basic Cittas" thread with Rob, but have been neglecting my homework. BTW, I liked what you said about Abhidhamma being so helpful in daily life that there is no need to fuss about "the how, when, where or why or even the if of its authenticity." If I had read it first I could have cut and pasted it and saved the sprawling epics I wrote to Joon and Herman! You have such a nice way of putting things, short and sweet. Metta, Phil 36761 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Sep 22, 2004 10:05am Subject: Re: Paying respect. Hello Phil and all, op 21-09-2004 13:31 schreef plnao op plnao@j...: > Yes, Herman, I walk with eyes open through the Gates of > Abhidhamma and kneel at the feet of my teachers, K Sujin > and K. Nina. The supreme teacher, the Buddha, is there with them, as he is > there with you on your Dhamma path. N: Phil, I pay respect to your kusala citta for your appreciation of the Dhamma. Thus, this is mutual respect and appreciation because of the Dhamma. This is a lovely custom in Thailand and very natural. As I mentioned before, when in India on the last day of each pilgimage, we are all sitting on the ground, and then we kneel and pay respect to each other for all the kusala that people performed during the trip. We do not think of persons, we think of the kusala citta. People who do not know you and who, being not familiar with Asian customs, read your post, may misunderstand you, thinking that you are glorifying persons, but I know you don't. It is the Dhamma that counts, not the persons by means of whom you come into contact with the Dhamma. By the way, one correction, I am not a Dhamma teacher. I like to pay respect to anybody on this list who helps me to consider a little more and understand a little more the Dhamma. Some with their pertinent questions, others with a remark here and there, although they may not even realize how they have helped me. And I know very little about some of them, except their posts. I will not mention names, that is not necessary. With appreciation and gratefulness to all, Nina. 36762 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Sep 22, 2004 10:05am Subject: Re: [dsg] Kamma Hi Rob M, op 22-09-2004 03:40 schreef robmoult op rob.moult@j...: N: >> I prefer not to specify, since these things are not specified in > the >> teachings. Thus: I would not say: every akusala citta produces > result. But >> rather: when the intensity of akusala is such that it can produce > result, it >> can produce result depending on conditons. I tend to keep the > intensity more >> general, because who knows? R: Even though I tend to generalize :-), I would agree that it is wrong > to say that every akusala citta produces a result. I like the way > that you positioned this. >> R: I checked some Suttas on kamma and they all seem to talk about >>> rebirth but never about kamma ripening during a lifetime. ... >> N: Yes, they do, take the story of MahaaMoggallana, as given by > Htoo. R: I missed Htoo's story about MahaMoggallana. I agree that there are > examples of intensities of cetana. I guess what I am looking for is > a Sutta where the Buddha said that a specific incident during an > existence (i.e. not a rebirth) was a result of kamma (as distinct > from accumulations). N: Moggallana had in a previous liufe killed his blind parents. In his last life he became an arahat, but he still had to experience akusala vipaaka produced by that evil kamma. He was killed by bandits. There are more exmaples. Take Angulimala who had killed so many. He became an arahat but had to suffer from his evil kamma before. Take M III, 140, Discourse on the Analysis of the Elements, the story of Pukkusaati who stayed with the Buddha in a potter's dwelling. He became a non-returner but then he was killed by a cow. The Co elaborates about his former life. R:U Silananda's lecture notes went into more detail on >>> asynchronous kamma (Nanakkhanika-kamma)condition: > U Silananda's chart seems to indicate that only cetana in lobha-mula > cittas can condition results according to asynchronous kamma > condition. . I will try to find the talk where he > discusses asynchronous kamma condition. N: You could compare with the Expositor. Also U Narada in Guide to Conditional Relations speaks about asynchronous kamma, which can be strong or weak. p. 51: He explains other factors which make it favorable for kamma to produce result:destiny, time, substratum of birth, effort (payoga) as also found in the Dispeller of delusion. He explains that kamma of the sense sphere may be strong or weak, but that kusala of jhana and lokuttara is always strong. R: > The question that Dan (and I) are stuck on is this: > > The body sensitivity citta, the receiving citta and the > investigating citta are all "vipaka"; this means that they are the > result of some past citta. Are these three vipaka cittas similar to > the bhavanaga cittas (i.e. all the resultant of the kamma which > conditioned rebirth) or are these three vipaka cittas the result of > some past action not associated with rebirth. If these three cittas > are the result of some past action not associated with rebirth, what > is the nature of the relationship? N: We read in the Tiika to the Vis: If in this life the investigating-consciousness in a process is akusala vipaaka, this does not mean that also the bhavangacittas are akusala vipaaka. Impossible, since birth as a human is the result of kusala kamma. All bhavangacittas in our life are kusala vipaaka. Conclusion: the investigating-consciousness in a process that is akusala vipaaka during human life, is the result from another kamma, not from kamma that produced our rebirth. > R: The object of the sense door citta process has nothing to do with > kamma; the object arises because of other conditions. However, it is > the arising of the object which is a condition for the sense door > process to arise. N: And it is kamma which arranged for the sense-cognition to experience that object. It is like a miracle what kamma achieves. > R: I am not trying to understand which specific kamma (as the Sutta > says, that would drive one crazy). > I agree that saying that every akusala citta creates kamma is going > too far. > Ooops, the other day I did a dana and served a group of monks ice- > cream :-) N: I really rejoice in your kusala. That is lovely. Tell us more about your danas. Nina. 36763 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Sep 22, 2004 10:05am Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. Intro Visuddhimagga XIV, 101. Hi Larry, op 22-09-2004 01:12 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...:, > > So, consciousness of red is kamma result but red is not. N: You must have a reason to use the wording consciousness of red. Seeing is result of kamma. Focussing on red is another citta that arises in a mind-door process. However, this does not mean that seeing does not see red. This is a good topic for considering. Seeing sees all that appears through eyesense, but it does not know, this is red. I used to find it difficult, and it is still difficult for me. A. Sujin said: do you know how many colours there are in this room? Answer: we cannot count them, but seeing sees them all. Not only red is seen when there happens to be a red flower, but also the colours next to it. That shows that seeing does not focus on anything, it just sees all that appears through eyesense. You say: red is not kamma result. No, never the mental result. Colour is rupa. But rupa of the body can be produced by kamma, citta, temperature or nutrition. When you look at a sunburnt part of the body, the red colour is produced by temperature. L: Also, mind door consciousness of red is not kamma result. What about a gift? A gift is > not kamma result and consciousness of a gift is not kamma result. If > someone gives you a dollar, only the color etc. of the dollar is kamma > result, the value is not and the concept "gift" is not. It seems like > there must be more to kamma than citta process. What else is there (that > creates kamma) besides citta process? Is this something else ultimately > real? Is there such a phenomenon as conventional/nonultimately-real > kamma? N: These are difficult questions discussed here before. We read in the suttas about gain and loss, praise and blame, etc. The Buddha explained in the Suttas about kamma and vipaka in conventional terms. We learn through the Abhidhamma about kamma and vipaka in the ultimate sense, thus, as they occur from moment to moment. There is no contradiction here. A gift: it may be pleasant through the eyes, thus, seeing that is kusala vipaaka. Result of kamma. However, it is difficult to know precisely whether just seeing, only one moment, is kusala vipaaka. We think about the gift and then pleasant visible object impinges again and again on the eyesense, and this conditions seeing, kusala vipaaka again and again. By thinking about it we can have a general understanding of what is kusala vipaka. Only through the development of insight we can have a more precise understanding. We can be easily deluded. We look at what we believe to be a pleasant object but there are different doorways through which objects are received. Example: A. Sujin said to me long ago: someone wears a beautiful necklace of heavy beads: pleasant to experience through the eyes, but heavy through the bodysense, thus an unpleasant object is experienced through the bodysense. In the case of bodily wellbeing or misery (among the eight worldly conditions): painful feeling when sick is the result of akusala kamma. When we talk about sickness as a situation in conventional languga there are many different moments. The hearing of bad news, say from the medical doctor. Hearing sound is vipaaka. A. Sujin explained to me: when the sound is produced by citta with compassion, hearing it is kusala vipaaka. Again, there are many different moments, but we confuse the vipaaka, sense-cognitions, with our reactions through thinking about it. L: Is it governed by conditionality? N: Whatever happens does so because of conditions, but these conditions are intricate. Kamma-condition is one condition, but there are other conditions which make it favorable for kamma to produce result right at that moment. > L: Also, don't you think it is a little hedonistic to say pleasant bodily > feeling is always the result of kusala kamma and unpleasant bodily > feeling is always the result of akusala kamma? N: Since bodily feeling is such a short moment, it is most difficult to really understand it. It is merely passive, vipaaka, and it has nothing to do with like or dislike and the pleasant or unpleasant mental feeling that are together with like and dislike. When we think of pleasant and unpleasant bodily feeling we immediately associate these words with pleasant and unpleasant mental feeling that arise so shortly after the bodily feelings that it all seems one moment. In reality this is not so. That is what Rob M explained, saying the feeling is in the mind. We have to carefully consider this. We know so little about this rapidly passing moment of bodily feeling. But when we are sick or in case of accident, the rupa that is tangible object impinges again and again, painful feeling arises again and again, and by thinking about it we realize that there is pain. But immediately we also are bound to have aversion. Only insight can disentangle the different feelings. Vipaaka is a short moment, but as I read in the Tiika to Vis. 102: the result of akusala is not devoid of affliction: na hi akusalassa vipaako adukkho hoti. Nina. 36764 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Sep 22, 2004 10:05am Subject: Re: [dsg] Deeds of merit - generosity and cittas that arise from it Hello Phil, op 22-09-2004 01:26 schreef plnao op plnao@j...: > Are > there few kusala cittas and many akusala or > more kusala than akusala? Since we know akusala outnumbers kusala, for > worldlings, it might be right to start by assuming the > former, but stay open to the possibility of the latter, and grateful to the > Buddha who teaches the way to make that possibilty a reality. > > Maybe we should see the ethical implications of an act as a momentary > balance sheet > rather than one citta that can be pinpointed? N: You are right we cannot pinpoint different moments. Only through insight we shall know more clearly the different cittas. However, it is not to be denied that there are also kusala cittas. It is not so that there are only akusala cittas. We can have a degree of knowledge about this, but not yet precise from moment to moment. Nina. 36765 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Sep 22, 2004 10:05am Subject: Re: [dsg] Anger and craving Hello duncan, nice to have you back. op 21-09-2004 22:12 schreef bluescatplayah op bluescatplayah@y...: Does anger arise from craving exclusively, or does anger > arise, in some instances, from stimuli in which craving is not a > factor? N: It is also conditioned by ignorance, ignorance of the Buddha's teaching, ignorance of realities. There is ignorance together with each moment of anger. And, as Larry explained, it is also conditioned by craving. But craving does not arise at the same time as anger. In fact, ignorance and craving are the roots of the cycle of birth and death. They are only completely eradoicated by the arahat who has come to the end of birth. D:It has become apparant, during deep examination, that if > anger arises in my own mind that there is always a root cause of > either craving or aversion. N: We can check: when things are not the way we would like them to be there is aversion. As Larry said, there is no I in aversion, it is conditioned. Aversion is accompanied by unpleasant feeling, domanassa. There are many aspects of dukkha, bodily pain and mental unpleasant feeling are aspects of dukkha. D: So the question arises: is anger always > born of craving, or are there circumstances in which craving plays no > part? N: We like pleasant objects and dislike unpleasant objects, and we do not see their futility. So we are swung to and fro between like and dislike. Crying immediately when we do not get what we want. There are deeper causes of defilements: the latent tendencies. These are defilements that are accumulated in the citta like microbes. Formerly you had aversion and craving and these fell away, but they have been accumulated in the citta from moment to moment. Desire and aversion are among the latent tendencies. They can cause at any time, when the circumstances are favorable, when there is the right object, the arising of akusala citta. When the object is pleasant the latent tendency of desire may condition the arising of citta rooted in attachment, it adheres to that object. When the object is unpleasant, the latent tendency of aversion may condition the arising of citta rooted in aversion, it adheres to that object. When the akusala citta falls away, attachment and aversion continue on as latent tendency. Since we have accumulated aversion it will always find an object. There are other conditions for aversion. Wrong friendship can condition all kinds of akusala, even bad deeds motivated by aversion. Wrong friends give wrong examples. Think of children harming animals or elderly people. Climate can condition aversion: when it is too cold you may suffer and have aversion. So you see that there are many different conditioning factors operating in our lives. Nina. 36766 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Sep 22, 2004 10:05am Subject: Re: [dsg] OK, Abhidharma Hi Herman, op 22-09-2004 01:39 schreef Herman Hofman op hhofman@t...:> > You wrote: > =========== > As to the expression wrong view, this refers to the wrong view of > annihilation view and so on. > > N: This includes the belief that after death there will not be rebirth. > H > I am assured that after death there will be rebirth. In your book I > have wrong view. What should I do about that? N: Think of Gradual Sayings (A ii 245) and apply it. Nina. 36767 From: buddhatrue Date: Wed Sep 22, 2004 11:05am Subject: Re: [dsg] Citta. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > Hi Phil: > K I: (I, 7, §2, The Devas, no 7, Over under Suttas, The heart (mind, citta): > Nor what is that whereby the world is led? > And what is that whereby it plaques itself (is drawn along)? > And what is that above all other things > That brings everything beneath its sway? > N: The answer of the Sutta is: is thoughts, cittas. > Friend James could give you B.B.'s translation. I wish he would again take > up the Kindred Sayings thread. Friend Nina, Thank you for the kind mention. I would be happy to give Phil (Hi Phil! ;-) the translation of whatever you are referring to but I am afraid I am a bit out of the loop. I have been spending most of my spare time these days reading past articles from the "The Wheel" from BPS (and meditating, of course). Some of them have been quite enlightening to me and my individual practice. Also, I am not sure what you mean by my "taking up again the Kindred Sayings thread"…but it sure sounds impressive!! Hehehe… Are you sure I participated in anything as lofty as that!!?? ;-)) Anyway, let me know what you would like me to do when you get the chance. I have thought of you and hope that everything is going well with you (I feel I have reasons to smile.). Take care. Metta, James 36768 From: htootintnaing Date: Wed Sep 22, 2004 2:32pm Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 069 ) Dear Dhamma Friends, We have discussed all 89 states of mind. All 89 cittas have been touched. When these 89 cittas are understood, learning of mind phenomena becomes much more easier than without knowledge of these 89 cittas. Whoever at any time will have a citta. This citta may be one of these 89 cittas. Another reality is cetasikas. There are 52 different cetasikas. Before going deep into cetasika dhamma, it is good to discuss cittas more detail. This detailing will make the classifications of citta much more clearer because sometimes cittas are talked as 121 cittas in total. It is said that 'itthamekuuna navuti pabhedam pana maanasam. Ekaviisa satamvaatha, vibhajanti vicakkhanaa'. Those who are wise also critically count cittas as 121 cittas ( eka visa satam_1, 20, 100 = 121 cittas in total ). There are cittas which are kamavacaras, which are rupavacaras, and which are arupavacaras. Just before magga cittas arise, there always arise kamavacara mahakusala cittas namely parikamma, upacara, and anuloma. Those who do not attain jhanas when they are right and fully perfected for magga cittas to arise, the series that has been described in the previous posts arise. Magga and phala cittas arise in this way, there will be 8 total lokuttara cittas. But those who attain 8 jhanas that is all 5 rupa jhanas and all 4 rupa jhanas, if thier magga cittas arise in the vicinity of these jhanas, these lokuttara cittas are counted as lokuttara jhana cittas. There are 5 rupa jhanas as there are 5 total jhana factors. All arupa jhanas have ekaggata jhana factor and upekkha vedana as in case of 5th rupa jhana. So all arupa jhanas can be counted as 5th jhana because they do have jhana factors of the 5th jhana. When in the 1st jhana, the object is the object of jhana. It is not a paramattha dhamma. If object is not paramattha dhamma, there is no reason to discern anicca, dukkha, anatta in that object which actually do not exist. But magga citta can arise in the vicinity of jhana cittas and these magga cittas do have the same cetasikas that jhana cittas have. The practitioner starts with paikamma bhavana and then moves up to upacara bhavana. Unlike those without jhanas, these practitioners who attain jhanas will rise up to appana bhavana. This jhana appana bhavana is rupavacara rupa jhana citta and when in 1st jhana, all arising jhana cittas one after another are absorbed into the jhana object. At a time, as their predetermined period has lapsed they emerge from their 1st jhana and then they do paccavakkhana. At that time and in those vithi vara, cittas are not rupavacara cittas. Instead they all are kamavacara mahakusala tihetuka cittas. They see paramattha dhamma and they see the marks on paramattha dhamma and realise that these paramattha dhamma are all impermanent, suffering, and not self. After paccavakkhana, these vithi vara arise and this is followed by bhavanga cittas. Bhavangas again stop and there arise manodvara avajjana citta arise. After that parikamma kamavacara mahakusala citta arises. The object is jhana citta and its cetasikas and their marks. This high direct knowledge is then transferred to next citta called upacara kamavacara mahakusala citta. This gives its object to anuloma kamavacara mahakusala citta. These 3 cittas, parikamma, upacara, anuloma cittas do have the same jhana cetasikas as their preceeding jhana cittas. In the vicinity of jhana cittas these vithi varas arise and after gotrabhu citta, 'vitakka, vicara, piti, sukhekaggata sahitam sotapatti magga pathamajjhana lokuttara kusala citta' arises. This is 82nd if cittas are counted as 121 cittas. But to avoid confusion, 40 lokuttara cittas will not be numbered again. Lokuttara cittas are all appana samadhi cittas. So all lokuttara cittas are said to be jhana cittas. But we have to be careful that these lokuttara cittas are never rupavacara cittas or they are never arupavacara cittas. They that is all 40 lokuttara cittas are lokuttara cittas. They are not rupavacara cittas and they are not arupavacara cittas. But they can be said that they are jhana cittas because they all are appana citta. Appana means close attention, close looking, close viewing. They are so close that they are fused with the object. Here the only object is nibbana and not other object. All lokuttara cittas have appana samadhi. All lokuttara cittas have higher nana. So it is said that 'without jhana, no panna and without panna, no jhana' in dhammapada. Panna here is not just transferred knowledge of reading or listenoing of others but direct knowledge of magga nana and phala nana. Jhana here is not rupavacara rupa jhanas or arupavacara arupa jhanas but they all are lokuttara appana jhana. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS:Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome and they will be valuable. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts. 36769 From: robmoult Date: Wed Sep 22, 2004 2:44pm Subject: Fellowship Hi All, About a year ago, my wife commented to a monk that Christians did a much better job of promoting fellowship than Buddhists. My wife noted that it was not uncommon for Christians to organize fellowship meetings at people's houses (this in not uncommon in Malaysia, I believe that it is less common among Christians in Western countries). The monk suggested that we follow the Christians' example and organize a fellowship meeting in our own home. The monk even suggested a few names of lay Dhamma speakers. Since that time, every two or three weeks, we open our house to a group of friends, many of them from my Sunday morning Abhidhamma class. We bought 20 meditation cushions so that everybody feels comfortable on the floor of our living room. We have been very fortunate to have excellent speakers come to our house. Frankly, attending a Dhamma talk in a temple or a Buddhist Centre is really nice, but attending a Dhamma talk in somebody's home is better. Dhamma talks in a home are much more intimate and much more interactive than Dhamma talks in a hall. Having a Dhamma talk in a home drives home the point that Dhamma has to be part of our daily life. It has more impact. Last year, I visited my home town of Toronto. I stopped in at the Sri Lankan temple because this is the tradition that we follow in Malaysia. It is a beautiful temple, but I got the feeling that it was more of a Sri Lankan community centre. I understand why this is so in Western countries but it doesn't help to spread the Dhamma. You (and your friends) may not feel 100% comfortable attending talks given in such an environment. However, if you check, I am confident that the monk would be more than willing to come to your house to give a Dhamma talk to you and your friends (Note: if you choose this approach, best to discuss monk-etiquette with the monk and give your friends some pointers in advance). It is not difficult to organize such a session: 1. Confirm a convenient date with a speaker 2. SMS a group of friends to spread the word 3. Lay out some water / tea / biscuits for after the talk For the past couple of weeks, we have had Ven. Abhinyana as our speaker, an Australian monk who is visiting Malaysia. He is an excellent speaker with sometimes unconventional views that make one think. You can read some of his writings at his website: http://members.tripod.com/anatta0/ These Dhamma fellowship evenings bring a lot of joy into our house, a lot of joy into our life and a lot of joy into our friends' lives as well. It is often close to midnight before people leave and everybody leaves with a smile. As our friends bring their friends along, we get to meet new people as well. My reason in posting this message is to encourage you to consider doing something similar. Perhaps your conditions do not support 20 people... okay, do it with five people. Perhaps Dhamma speakers are difficult to find in your area... okay, pick a list of topics (i.e. gathas from the Mangala Sutta) and rotate who leads the discussion in each session. Perhaps it is difficult to find five Theravada friends... okay, open the discussion to include Mahayana and Vajrayana friends. Perhaps the idea of "every two or three weeks" seems daunting... okay, do it once. On DSG, I know that Christine, Ken H, Azita, Andrew and others organize weekends in Cooran from time to time. Some friends from DSG make "group pilgrimages" to Bangkok, Burma, India and other places. I am confident that those who have participated in these trips come back "charged up" after listening to the Dhamma (dhamma-savana), sharing the Dhamma (dhamma-desana) and straightening out views (ditthijjukamma). Again, I encourage you to consider starting small. It does not have to be elaborate. It is not expensive. I encourage you to literally bring the Dhamma into your home. Metta, Rob M :-) 36770 From: rjkjp1 Date: Wed Sep 22, 2004 2:58pm Subject: Rebirth[herman]OK, Abhidharma --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Herman Hofman" wrote: > Hi Nina, > > That should have had a no in it, like so : > > I am assured that after death there will be no rebirth. In your book I > have wrong view. What should I do about that? > > ++++++++++++ Dear Herman, If you like I could try to help with this. If I understand you rightly you believe that death is the final end for each of us, there is no rebirth? RobertK 36771 From: Herman Hofman Date: Wed Sep 22, 2004 3:03pm Subject: RE: [dsg] OK, Abhidharma Hi Nina, and everyone, Would somebody be kind enough to post me a link to A ii 245? Thanks and Kind Regards Herman -----Original Message----- From: nina van gorkom [mailto:nilo@e...] Sent: Thursday, 23 September 2004 3:05 AM To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [dsg] OK, Abhidharma Hi Herman, op 22-09-2004 01:39 schreef Herman Hofman op hhofman@t...:> > You wrote: > =========== > As to the expression wrong view, this refers to the wrong view of > annihilation view and so on. > > N: This includes the belief that after death there will not be rebirth. > H > I am assured that after death there will be rebirth. In your book I > have wrong view. What should I do about that? N: Think of Gradual Sayings (A ii 245) and apply it. Nina. 36772 From: Herman Hofman Date: Wed Sep 22, 2004 3:17pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Rebirth[herman]OK, Abhidharma Hi Robert, Thanks for your post and the offer of assistance. Some more below. ==== > Hi Nina, > > That should have had a no in it, like so : > > I am assured that after death there will be no rebirth. In your book I > have wrong view. What should I do about that? > > ++++++++++++ Dear Herman, If you like I could try to help with this. If I understand you rightly you believe that death is the final end for each of us, there is no rebirth? ==== Yes, you have understood me well. I will gladly take up your offer of assistance, not because I want to believe there is rebirth, out of any number of beliefs that exist about what happens to people after they die, but because I want to see things as they are. Thanks and Kind Regards Herman 36773 From: Date: Wed Sep 22, 2004 4:47pm Subject: Vism.XIV,102 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) Ch. XIV 102. Profitable resultant, though, has desirable or desirable-neutral objects only, while these have undesirable or undesirable-neutral objects only. The former are of three kinds, being classed according to equanimity, bodily pleasure, and mental joy, while these are of two kinds, being classed according to bodily pain and equanimity. For here it is only body-consciousness that is accompanied by bodily pain; the rest are accompanied by equanimity. And the equanimity in these is inferior, and not very sharp as the pain is; while in the former it is superior, and not very sharp as the pleasure is. So with these seven kinds of unprofitable resultant and the previous sixteen kinds of profitable resultant, sense-sphere resultant consciousness is of twenty-three kinds. 36774 From: rjkjp1 Date: Wed Sep 22, 2004 5:19pm Subject: Re: [dsg]1 Rebirth[herman]OK, Abhidharma --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Herman Hofman" < > > Dear Herman, > If you like I could try to help with this. If I understand you > rightly you believe that death is the final end for each of us, > there is no rebirth? > ==== > Yes, you have understood me well. I will gladly take up your offer of > assistance, not because I want to believe there is rebirth, out of any > number of beliefs that exist about what happens to people after they > die, but because I want to see things as they are. > ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++= Dear Herman, I'll try to write a few posts on this. First I begin with the Kesaputta sutta (incorrectly called the Kalama sutta by modern Buddhists) http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an03-065.html In this sutta the Buddha meets a group of people who wonder about what is true. Some teachers claim that there is a future life and rebirth, while others rubbish the idea. They ask the Buddha who is right. The Buddha replies that for one who has purified the mind: "'If there is a world after death, if there is the fruit of actions rightly & wrongly done, then this is the basis by which, with the break-up of the body, after death, I will reappear in a good destination, the heavenly world.' This is the first assurance he acquires. "'But if there is no world after death, if there is no fruit of actions rightly & wrongly done, then here in the present life I look after myself with ease -- free from hostility, free from ill will, free from trouble.' This is the second assurance he acquires. "" For these people who were filled with doubts about the future and past this helped to alay them. They could see that at the very least developing a purified mind gave them advantages in this life. And if there was a fuure life then they would win double (now and in the future) . And so they were able to let go of their doubts and take refuge in the Buddha. The sutta ends: "Magnificent, lord! Magnificent! Just as if he were to place upright what was overturned, to reveal what was hidden, to show the way to one who was lost, or to carry a lamp into the dark so that those with eyes could see forms, in the same way has the Blessed One -- through many lines of reasoning -- made the Dhamma clear. We go to the Blessed One for refuge, to the Dhamma, and to the Sangha of monks. May the Blessed One remember us as lay followers who have gone to him for refuge, from this day forward, for life." RobertK 36775 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Sep 22, 2004 9:12pm Subject: Re: [dsg] 'Cetasikas' study corner16-Contact /Phassa(b) Dear Azita and Phil, op 22-09-2004 13:52 schreef gazita2002 op gazita2002@y...: > I have a qu. Has the rupa that will be experienced by the dvi- > pancavinnana [seeing consciousness etc] already arisen? is that why > there is a vibrating bhavanga? N: Yes. Rupa is weak at its arising moment, it cannot be doorway nor can it be object. After a rupa (that will be an object) has disturbed the bhavanga-citta it is experienced by the first citta of the process of cittas, by the adverting-consciousness. But at that moment the rupa is already strong, and it can go on until it ceases after a duration of 17 moments of cittas. A: all the universals that arise with one citta condition each other then they fall away with that citta, and then the next citta arises with a new set of universals. I suppose that the falling away of one lot may be a condition for the next lot to arise? N: Each citta that falls away conditions the arising of the following citta by way of contiguity condition. Whenever we say citta we also mean the accompanying cetasikas, the whole lot. Phil had a Q about conascence condition. N: This operates for citta and cetasikas and also for rupas that arise together in a group. For citta and cetasikas that are conascent there are many types of conditions by way of which they condition one another. They fall away together and then there is a different lot. Nina. 36776 From: rjkjp1 Date: Wed Sep 22, 2004 9:22pm Subject: Re: "... as parasites a tree." ??? --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "dighanakha" wrote: > Hello Robert. > > > > Dig>> then come the verses informing us that we should expect this > Dig>> behaviour from ALL women, along with recommendations that > Dig>> ALL women should be despised, avoided, distrusted, and > Dig>> disbelieved. So the point of my question above is that this > Dig>> material, though supposedly approved by the ancient arahant > Dig>> theras and the Great Commentator Buddhaghosa, is seriously > Dig>> at odds with what is taught about women in the other Nikayas > Dig>> of the Sutta Pitaka, and seriously disconfirmed by reality > Dig>> (it only takes one exception to falsify a universal > Dig>> proposition, e.g. one woman who occasionally speaks the > Dig>> truth). > > > R> Does Buddhaghosa say absolutely that all women are to be thought > R> of in this way? > > What I wrote above is that it is the verses that make this claim, > not Buddhaghosa. In his word-commentary on the verses Buddhaghosa > usually only remarks on points of grammar and word definitions. > The verses' statements about women are passed over in silence. I > have, however, found one exception in the Kunala Jataka, where > Buddhaghosa mitigates the cuckoo's statement slightly (there may > be others, but it would require a lot of work to go looking for > them). > > Commenting on the verse: > > "As all rivers meander, > As all forests are made of wood, > So all women would do evil > When given the opportunity." > > Buddhaghosa says: " 'All women' means that all women, excepting > those whose defilements have been reduced by insight, would do > evil." > > "Opportunity" he then explains as meaning whenever a woman can > find a private place large enough to conceal herself and another. > > +++++++++++ Dear DighaNakha, Thanks, great work on finding the piece from Buddhaghosa. I think it shows that there are exceptions to the general comments about women. I feel I have grown up on Jataka and find them all very helpful. Even the rather disparaging comments are useful: they warn. I was a bit romantic in my youth and would feel downhearted when (as happened several times) a love would desert me for another. Now I feel almost free of jealously - if my current girlfriend goes with another man, then I feel that is the way it should be. I contrast this with one of my friends who is so upset that his wife of 12 years left him for a lover, he really cannot accept it. His grief is extreme. RobertK 36777 From: kenhowardau Date: Wed Sep 22, 2004 9:59pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Kamma Hi Rob M, Recently, I corrected the wording of an answer you had given to Catalin: RM: > When one dies, the physical body falls away but the mind continues with another body. > I thought you had accidentally given the impression of a mind that existed outside the present, momentary, nama and rupa. Now I am wondering if that was entirely accidental.(!) Why, for example, have you told Herman that, in the first three moments of a sense- door process, "the mind is experiencing a bhavanga citta?" Surely, at those times, the mind IS a bhavanga-citta. There is no external mind into which, and out of which, cittas come and go. While I am at it, I might point out some other parts of your answer I found disconcerting: ----------------- RM: > There are many laws of nature in this universe but the Buddha only focused on those relevant to the goal of His teachings. For example, the Buddha never talked about gravity. Why did the Buddha choose not to talk about the nature of gravity? Because understanding the nature of gravity does not lead to the holy life or to Nibbana > ----------------- That gives the impression that gravity is a part of absolute reality. But isn't gravity only a concept? ----------------- RM: > The tactile object rupa arises because of temperature and it is governed by natural laws which are outside the scope of the Buddha's teaching. > ----------------- Is that correct? Has the Buddha only partly explained the conditions governing rupa? ------------------ RM: > This question is formulated as an ontological, phenomenological question. The Buddha's focus was not on defining realities but rather on the mind (mind is what creates conditions conducive to the holy life and what brings us closer to Nibbana); ----------------------- I think you need to accept that the Buddha did define realities: otherwise, you will continue to confuse them with concepts. :-) Kind regards, Ken H 36778 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Sep 23, 2004 0:28am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: CSC 4-[Sarah: "citta is..."] Dear Dan, (Matt, Mike, others in passing), --- "Dan D." wrote: > Dear Sarah, > Is not the idea of "conceptual right view" a trap, much like the > notion of "conventional right effort"? Isn't it just taking a factor > of the eightfold path and reconstituting it as concept rather than > cetasika? Is there any canonical or commentarial support for doing > that? .... S: I’m sure it can be in just the way you describe, but there are degrees of right understanding (of any kind) and it would be for the person using this phrase to clarify further for you;-). I was merely correcting what I saw as an error in what you wrote which suggested that the only panna was mundane and supramundane panna of the eightfold path. This is what I wrote: >S: "Understanding (pañña) is of many sorts and has various aspects" - eg in samatha development. Concepts as object such as the qualities of the Buddha or the Dhamma or any of the other objects. But in this section of the Vism, it is just understanding (insight) of vipassana which is being discussed. Remember, panna accompanies all moments of bhavana (samatha and vipassana). My point was that in MN117, like in Vism under 'Understanding', it is insight (vipassana)- mundane and supramundane which is being referred to as you rightly stressed.< ..... S: Now I don’t think I’ve used ‘conceptual right view’ as a phrase, but like with many other phrases, eg ‘seeing sees visible object’, we need to talk more to the user to find out the implied meaning rather than getting too hung up on the words. We can also use exact the right phraseology but with wrong view....so it just depends on the meanings intended, I think. ***** I’m appreciating your thread with RobM, Mike, Herman and all. Behind on my reading, however, so read a couple of quick comments with that in mind. You mentioned (36512) that you find it hard to take that the pain from the falling tree on your leg is a result of bad kamma. Sometimes there is very strong bodily unpleasant feeling, at other times not. We hear about people falling through windows and so on and not experience painful feelings whilst at other times, they are very strong when we’d expect otherwise. Also, quite unpredictable and different for various people. If a tree falls on both our legs at the same time, the vipaka will not be the same at all. So, it depends on the vipaka as to whether any rupas and what rupas are experienced through the body sense at any instant. There's no time for thinking or adverting to pain, the unpleasant (or painful) bodily feeling just accompanies the body consciousness which experience the rupas. However, I agree with RobM that the kamma couldn’t have its effect without natural decisive support condition too. Hence, kamma and NDSC are very important conditions as he says and of course, without the rupas arising to be experienced through the body sense or the body sense rupas themselves, no opportunity for vipaka cittas either as everyone agrees, I think. Of course, most of what we think of as ‘pain’ is really the mental aversion arising with countless subsequent cittas. the vipaka through the body-sense experiencing just hardness, temperature or motion is so very, very brief. Btw, like you, I thought Matt’s comments on seeing and dark and light cittas, but also your reply (36621) were spot on and very clear. Also Mike’s on kamma (36557) was very good indeed. One brief quote: M:“I’m ‘poor’ now, so I was stingy earlier in this life, or ten or a gazillion lives ago? Who cares? I’d rather understand what’s happening right now.” (Of course, your (Dan’s) concern wasn’t to find out when what happened to cause this as stressed). Kusala and akusala vipaka -- we only mind about which because of kilesa.Without attachment, no concern about what is experienced right now - hence the guarding of the sense doors and development of detachment from whatever is conditioned to arise by way of vipaka. p.s Where did you get your U Kyaw Khine transl of Dhs from and how is it? Dan, all your recent posts have a really ‘sweet’ touch if you don’t mind me saying so. Greatly appreciated. Metta, Sarah ===== 36779 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Sep 23, 2004 0:38am Subject: Re: [dsg] ‘Cetasikas' study corner18-Contact /Phassa(d) Dear Friends, Cetasikas by Nina van Gorkom. http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch.1, Contact (Phassa)contd] ***** We read in the 'Discourse of the Honey-ball' (Middle Length sayings I, no. 18) that Maha-kaccana explained to the monks concerning contact: -This situation occurs: that when there is eye, your reverences, when -there is visible object, when there is visual consciousness, one will -recognise the manifestation of sensory impingement (phassa)... When there is the concurrence of the ear, sound and hearing-consciousness, there is the manifestation of ear-contact. When there is the concurrence of body-sense, a tangible object such as hardness and the experience of hardness, there is the manifestation of body-contact. Eye-contact is different from ear-contact and different from body-contact. At each moment of citta there is a different phassa which conditions the citta to experience an object. Phassa is not the doorway through which citta experiences an object. In the case of a sense-door process the rupa which is one of the senses is doorway and in the case of a mind-door process nama is doorway, namely the last bhavanga-citta arising before the mind-door adverting-consciousness, the first citta of the mind-door process (1) ..... (1)See Introduction. ***** [Contact (Phassa) to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 36780 From: Sukinderpal Singh Narula Date: Thu Sep 23, 2004 0:45am Subject: Re: Theory and Practice _Sukin & Htoo Dear Htoo, > Ongoing discussion: [ Sukin & Htoo ] > > Sukin: > > I admire your patience, a good example for me. Thank you. :-) > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > > I try to be limitless. But sometimes limit arises but I smile > immediately and impatience does not come out evidently. S> (-: > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: I do not have any comment to give on this matter. But I think > it might be just a continuation of 'dutinga' which he might have been > practising before his final years. > > We worldly people have instincts. Bhikkhus are human beings. They > break one instinct by joining sangha order. Next are food and sleep. > > I do not say, the monk did not sleep. But lying in bed is, I think, > what almost all people of the world will not avoid. > > I do not want to be judgemental but this is my thought which arises > as you asked. S> Yes, no point judging third persons, unless of course the objective is using them as example to show any wrong views we may have. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > >Htoo: > >I remember that the Venerable preached that, 'When you are on > board like a ship or boat or ferry, you have to note 'moving..moving, > sitting..sitting'. He preached that for lay people...snip.. move to > higher level and this urge changes a bit. > > Sukin: > > I will come back to this later in the post. S> My point here is to discuss about what a beginner needs to hear. For someone with good accumulation of panna, reference to bodily postures may condition an awareness of paramattha dhammas. However someone who is not firm in pariyatti, this may cause him to think that standing, sitting, moving and so on are `realities' to be observed. It is so easy for lobha to be conditioned at any point. So I think for someone with still very weak accumulations of panna, mistaking wrong awareness for sati is very likely to happen, and this will = then condition attachment to the practice. I think it is very important to study first the Teachings and come to know = exactly what satipatthana means and to question any advice for a practice. I understand that there are some people who believe that one must start with the above kind of practice, and that later on one then comes to `observe' paramattha dhammas. I think this is wrong. The correct practice must in my opinion, start with correct intellectual understanding. Do you agree with this? > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Sukin: 3. Someone may study the Dhamma as he would any worldly subject. In > which case he may be able to remember and recall concepts within the > Teachings quite appropriately to the situation. But this does not > necessarily involve any deep understanding of any one of those concepts. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > > I accept that. You mean direct knowledge? S> Yes, patipatti. ----------------------------------------------------------------- > Sukin: > I do believe that you are not boasting, I think that you are very > sincere. But allow me to express my view about the development of > sati and panna. > Htoo: I like these two words. Amara always says these two words. But > I would say there is no panna without sati. > > But there are sati without panna. S> One reason I stress these two words is because many people tend to link the development of `concentration' with the development of panna. I think there is no basis for such a connection. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > >Htoo: > >Yes. Mahasatipatthana should be our part of life and it should be in > >daily life. > > But we should not abandon the formal practice. When I write this, I > >am thinking that you may disagree. > > Sukin: > > Yes, I do disagree. As I said above, I don't think there can be any > control as to what will be the object of citta and whether there will > be right or wrong view with regard to it. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: I know that there is no control. Formal practice I mean sitting > in usual position of lotus. > > The Buddha had done His job that is searching of answers. All arahats > had done their jobs at arahatta magga khana. All their jobs had been > done. But I would say their sitting under a tree as formal practice. > > They are not looking for anything why sikkhas are looking for > arahatta magga nana. But the action of sitting, staying in > mahasatipatthana much not that differ. > > The Buddha did sit. Mahamoggalana did sit. Sariputta did sit.Upali > did sit. Kondanna did sit. Assaji did sit. Ananda did sit. Many other > arahats did sit. > > But these days people are discussing 'formal sitting or not'. I just > smile. > > Amara, Sarah, and some other people would deny sitting. As I > anticipated you, Sukin also reject the idea of sitting. > > I do not put aside pariyatti. But sitting formally is just following > the foregoers. > > I am not sitting in order to 'arise my sati, my panna, my samadhi, my > concentration'. But I do sit daily. I discern on what I experienced > while I am sitting. S> If it is natural for you to sit, I think it is fine. Different people ha= ve different reasons for doing things. The Bhikkhus during the Buddha's time had accumulations to sit. Even the unenlightened disciples had by the time they ordained, very little inclination to do anything else, remember they were developing one kind of kusala or the other as a natural behavior. The enlightened disciples, particularly the anagami and arahat had no more any attraction to sensual objects, so even if they were not in jhana or listening to dhamma, what else could they be doing but `sitting' and observing whatever is arising. But even they would not `choose' this in preference to any other duty that they may have. I think the example they set is not so that we `imitate' their outward behavior, but to delve into the cause which lead to where they finally arrived. And this is to consider the conditioned realities arising in daily= life no matter what our outward circumstance might be, starting first with pariyatti, I think. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Sukin: > > Actually, I have reservation with regard to any `idealistic' attitude > about developing Mahasatipatthana even in daily life. I feel this way > because it can condition the idea of `self' and `control'. In a day > if there is no satipatthana at all, it is good to know this, better > than then following some practice and risk having a false idea of > achievement and progress. > Htoo: > > Here what I can see is initial misunderstanding. If initial idea was > out of way, there will never approach the right way unless the > initial way is recognised as wrong. S> But the tendency to wrong view and attachment is so strong that we have all the time to be reminded about the basics and shown the different manifestations of wrong practice. If we are not in constant touch with the right teachings and be in the company of wise friends sharing our understandings, then I think it is very easy to go wrong. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > >Htoo: > >I would say mahasatipatthana should be in our daily life. On the > >other hand, formal practice should be practised. > > >The Buddha stayed in phalasamapatti. Great arahats stayed in > >phalasamapatti. Many arahats stayed in phalasamapatti. Some > >arahats sometimes stayed in nirodha sapamatti. > > Sukin: > > But is this the same as "formal practice"? > Htoo: I have explained my view above. They have done their job and > they do not have any more job for liberation. But they do sit in > formal sitting styles. And all sikkha bhikkhus in The Buddha time > sat, stood, walked and so on. Sitting is a part of practice. S> I think these individuals would least need to `sit in order to practice'= and instead would `practice no matter what they did'. But as I expressed above, I think `sitting' was their normal and natural activity. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > >Htoo: > >But clinging to formal practice without full understanding of > >implication may sound like rituals as Sujin said. > > Sukin: > > This is obvious, but I think any idea of `doing' which disregards in > principle, that there is a dhamma arising "NOW" to be known, is > silabattaparamasa. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Htoo: > > Could you please explain silabattaparamasa? S> This is the dictionary meaning: >>sílabbata-parámása and -upádána: 'attachment (or clinging) to mere rules and ritual', is the 3rd of the 10 fetters (samyojana, q.v.), and one = of the 4 kinds of clinging (upádána, q.v.). It disappears on attaining to Stream-entry (sotápatti). For definition, s. upádána.<< There is the idea that one's present level of sati and panna is too weak to penetrate realties, so one has to perform some `practice' to develop more of this. Usually this is referred to developing concentration, with the idea that a concentrated mind is better able to penetrate realities. But this I believe is wrong view, and encourages attachment. This `practice' is not the same as patipatti and has no causal connection with pariyatti. The latter will point to the reality of the moment, not away from it. If in the moment there is no panna and the `idea of doing something', this *must* be known as conditioned. Otherwise, one will believe in the conclusion and be lead by lobha and wrong view. And this is the path leading to silabbataparamasa. Also there may be the idea of `trying' to experience hardness, seeing, hearing and so on. In this case, it is a failure to see that `self' will fi= nd only its projections, the `concept' of hardness and so on, even though this is very quickly interspersed with any direct contact with the sense objects. There is atta sanna in connection with this kind of awareness and no accompanying understanding of conditionality. This too is silabbataparamasa. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > With Metta, > > Htoo Naing Metta, Sukin. 36781 From: Sukinderpal Singh Narula Date: Thu Sep 23, 2004 0:48am Subject: [dsg] Re: Theory and Practice _Sukin & Htoo Hi Herman, > Sorry to butt in. The H is for Herman, not Htoo :-) > ============== Sukin: I like your butting in, ;-) only do expect some delay in responding. --------------------------------------------- > S > Firstly, there is no control as to what concepts will be the object > of citta at the moment. > > ============== > > H > I disagree if you are making a statement of fact. Sukin: Please note, I said "at the moment", meaning at this moment. -------------------------------------- > H> The Buddha described and repeated a hundred times over what states you will experience if you ever proceed to following his recommendations re > jhana. Sukin: Are you mistaking conditionality for `control'? Are you identifying an idea of `self' deciding to do something and then going about doing it with control? Is there any satipatthana in the moment to determine which dhamma has indeed arisen in connection with such an idea and motivated any consequent action? Vipassana has absolutely *no* connection with jhana practice. The objects of samatha meditation including breath, which existed before Buddha realized about conditionality and anatta, lead to totally different goals than satipatthana. In the end, all practitioners of jhana, no matter which object they choose, what will determine if they will reach vipassana is whether they will `insight' the present arisen dhamma, in this case, jhana cittas. So in fact in this respect, a jhana adept is in exactly the same position as the dry insight practitioner, both must have enough of the other kind of panna, namely vipassana in order to reach enlightenment. ------------------------------------------ > H> It is precisely because of conditionality that these same states arise > when you follow in his steps. Time and again. Without fail. Sukin: What constitutes the "you" here? Is there not just `conditions'? But though you may agree that it is all conditions, what you are saying here is that the particular condition labeled `jhana practice' is what leads to vipassana. Is this right? If this is what you think, then you are wrong! --------------------------------------------- > H>It may be worthwhile to examine the aversion of the c word (control)? Sukin: Why do you assume `aversion'? > ================ > Sukin: > I don't think there can be any control as to what will be the object of > citta and whether there will be right or wrong view with regard to it. > Actually, I have reservation with regard to any `idealistic' attitude > about developing Mahasatipatthana even in daily life. I feel this way > because it can condition the idea of `self' and `control'. In a day if > there is no satipatthana at all, it is good to know this, better than > then following some practice and risk having a false idea of achievement > and progress. > > ================ > > H > Are you unaware, even with hindsight, that your daily life is full > of activity in which you are creating and maintaining your self-belief > with vigour and determination? And this is preferable to any sort of > activity, regardless of how highly praised by the Buddha, because a self > might be hiding in it? > > I really have to laugh, Sukin. You are a funny fellow :-) > Sukin: So? There is plenty idea of self all day and very little sati of any level. There is the illusion of control precisely because there is no satipatthana. Often this involves an identification of `self' as a concept engaging in `activities' (concepts) in time (more concept) and no awareness of not only paramattha dhammas, but even ignoring other possible interpretations of `self doing something'. But do I prefer this? But you are right; lobha does lead the way all day, against one's better judgement. So is there control? > =============== > H > The truth is you don't *have to* do anything. But you do lots of > things, because you want to. And that's fine by me. But please, don't > control the car while driving, it could condition the idea of self :-) Sukin: Controlling the car with a clear understanding (not that I have ever had any) about realties and concepts is not the same as controlling one's behavior with the idea that correspondingly some "dhammas" can be made to arise or go away at will. --------------------------------- > Kind regards and thanks for the laugh :-) > > Herman Sukin: Hopefully not too many lobha cittas were involved. ;-) Metta, Sukin. 36782 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Sep 23, 2004 0:52am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: the age of wisdom Dear Connie & Nina, Thanks for posting this. Connie, enjoy the rest of your 'understanding decade';-). --- connieparker wrote: > In the discussion on 'the material septad', ch. XX, > 50: 2.(b) Having attributed the three characteristics according to > 'disappearance of what grows old in each stage' thus by means of the > first > stage, etc., he again attributes the three characteristics according to > > 'disappearance of what grows old in each stage' by means of the > following > ten decades: the tender decade, the sport decade, the beauty decade, the > > strength decade, the understanding decade, the decline decade, the > stooping decade, the bent decade, the dotage decade and the prone > decade. ... S: I'm glad that Nina encouraged us to read it not too literally, seeing as I'm in decline and Jon's close to stooping;-) 'Never too late to develop understanding' and what an inspiration she, K.Sujin and other friends in later decades are. Nina, I laughed about your father at over 100 and still not reclining. Good for him. For my mother's birthday, I offered her a shawl of various colours and she said 'definitely not black, that's for old ladies'. She declined a bed jacket or shawl for the same reason. I hope Dighanakka's reading our non-literal interpretations here;-) Metta, Sarah ====== 36783 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Sep 23, 2004 1:14am Subject: Re: [dsg] Flip-flopping Hi Matt, Some of your posts on seeing and visible object have been the best ever on this topic imho. This was just a taste of it (36604): --- matt roke wrote: > Matt> Whether we are in a place where things are clearly discernible, > only > slightly discernible or not discernible at all, the only realities are > seeing > and visible object. *Light*, *void of light* and *darkness*, along with > black > and colours, are concepts experienced in the mind door. > ======================= S: Another one I really liked was at the end (36383): Matt: 'Whether we are in a place where things are clearly discernable, only slightly discernable or not discernable at all, the only realities are seeing and visible object.' It's very seldom for someone to come along here with this appreciation of the 'essence' of abhidhamma at the present moment. Actually, the only comment you've made on DSG which I've seriously questioned and am still puzzled by (in the light of all these other fine posts) is the one in (35790) to Ken H when we were away. I think he responded with some surprise too, but I forget how it went. You wrote: M: 'My understanding is that citta and its accompanying cetasikas experience a reality. That concept (thought) is made up of many cittas. And that citta is said to experience a concept because the reality of each citta that makes up the concept is experienced.' S: This para makes no sense to me. Would you kindly elaborate, perhaps using your own example of seeing and visible object and perhaps a later concept of a visible object? Sorry, to ambush an old post like this. As others will tell you, it's a 'bad' habit of mine. Metta, Sarah ======= 36784 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Sep 23, 2004 1:55am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: What is Meditation ? Hi Ken O (& Nori), As you know, I’m always glad to see you around....., You wrote to Nori (I think it was), --- Ken O wrote: N:> > > His definition of meditation is partly this: > > > A sustained and directed investigation into a chosen aspect of > > our > > > nature and reality. > > > This, I believe, includes processes of directed thought and > > > reflection (i.e. investigation and evaluation), in addition to > > direct observation. .... K: > Isn't this what we do in our everyday waking moments :) Ah so hard > to notice, it just passes us moment by moment and yet we have many > people keep telling us that we need to sit in one corner to "think" > Sometimes I wonder, when we first awake, isn't thought already arise. > Do we need to sit and think to think :). Thinking is only valid in > the every moment of our life and not waiting in one corner to > reinforce the believe that 'I' must do something. When there is an > I, then thinking is already lost, panna is already lost bc we are > still attached to the idea of I doing :) and believing that it takes > an 'I' to eradicate an 'I'. Conditions arise without 'I' :). So > lets be happy with thinking now and not later. Cheers ... S: Your posts always make me smile. (RobM would approve;-)). ‘Do we need to sit and think to think :)’. Of course, mostly we’re talking about awareness or understanding, but the same comments apply imho of course!! I also agreed with your comments on another thread -- the man on the operating table thread. It’s relevant to Nori’s phantom limbs thread too, so I’ll repeat part of it. You wrote: K: ‘Even our bodily dont feel pain does not meant our mind does not feel it because latencies are always there. Just like a person who lost their arms always have the problem forgetting the lost arms. Just like when we know we have a terminal illness, latencies will always influence us on loss, fear, sadness even before we actually die. How do we end up like this bc of latencies and the three roots.’ RobK also gave a comment of Ven Nyanaponika’s referring to examples of pain whilst under anaesthetic (thx Ro!). Like you (Ken O) said, unpleasant bodily feeling can only arise with body consciousness. Even when we say there’s no body consciousness (such as under an anaesthetic), there is bound to be some, but usually no knowledge of it or very slight I think. As Nori also indicated in the scientific/psychological tests too, the anticipation and mental aversion and unpleasant feeling greatly affect and magnify the perceived experience of painful feelings too. Anyway, this was the good point you already made. Look forward to more of your answers to any qus that catch your interest, Ken O. Maybe you can help Nori with his qus in post (36601) on the Sutta Nipata verses as I’m out of time now. Metta, Sarah p.s Are you still reading the comy to Ab.Sangaha? Any passages you find particularly helpful? ====== 36785 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Sep 23, 2004 2:05am Subject: Re: [dsg] 21 questions about Buddhism Dear Catalin, --- Catalin wrote: > All answers I have received on this list and other lists where very > helpful. Right now I am studying the materials from the sites some > pointed at and then I will study the writings from the Pali Canon and > other writings considered important by various schools. > I am also trying to meditate which is not very easy for me as a > beginner. > I am still receiving answers on these and other lists. ... S: Please ask more questions as you study and meditate. You mentioned you don't have a community around you, so make the most of the internet support groups like DSG! I thought RobM and Htoo both gave very detailed, kind and helpful responses to all your difficult questions. We'd all be glad to hear any of your comments on their replies. I think Htoo also asked for a little more clarification if you feel able to give it. .... > I live in Romania in the city of Ploiesti. The informations I have found <....> but none of them existing in my > city and most of them not even close. .... S: I'm very interested to hear you live in Romania. Thx for mentioning it. I had a long chat an an airport earlier this year with a young lady heading home to Romania and I told her about the Romanina students I used to teach in Australia. Many people on this list also just rely on the internet for group support. .... > I am mostly interested in Theravada Buddhism but also teachings from > other schools (like Zen and Tendai and some schools from China) seem > interesting. > If anyone in here knows more about Buddhism in Romania , please let me > know. .... S: I can't help here. Hope you can share more of your interest and reflections on Theravada Buddhism particularly with us here. Metta, Sarah ===== 36786 From: htootintnaing Date: Thu Sep 23, 2004 2:17am Subject: Reincarnation, Hell, Heaven and Nibbana Dear Dhamma Friends, There are hard-to-prove things in this world on this earth and they happen frequently in some areas. They are .. Reincarnation, Hell, Heaven and Nibbana. Only The Buddha's Abhidhamma will be able to explain all these hard- to-proof truths and all truths such as samuti sacca or conventional truth, paramattha sacca or ultimate truths, and Noble Truths or the truth realised by Noble Ariyas. REINCARNATION: Reincarnation is very easy to experience through others if there is no own reincarnation experience. Reincarnation is a bit strange thing as it is not normal from scientific concepts. It is connection of past memories and the present life memories. Science will only explain the current life physical matters only. Not beyond that. For example, they would say that there are stored memories in the brain of the current life. If they are destroyed by disease like Alzeimer's Disease or strokes or other dementia, memories will be lost. But knowledge of unrelated events in a person who has never learns these in this life cannot be explained by scientific means. I think, in this group triplegem, I wrote on some evidence of recarnation. I have a close friend and a cousin. Both are reincarnated people. One remembers his past life family. His past-life-wife is as old as his mother and the place where she lives is far away and unrelated. But he went there and explain everything. With a good will he has a good contact with that old lady and supports her. My cousin was born with a congenital wound or sinus with discharge. This was to be treated seriously. And finally skin transplantation had to be done and finally it healed. That was when he was young. When he became a toddler whenever a lady passed in front of his house, he stopped his playing and called out that lady as 'Mom'. But the lady did not recognise the voice. This happened many times and finally the lady enquired about the matter. He told her that he had been her son in his past life. He was killed by a murderer. This was true and the killer was free from any harm and free from any punishment as no one knew his killing but only the dead body with wound of a sharp object at the neck. The boy could tell who killed, what weapon the killer used, the time of killing and associated or accompanying people who involve in the scene. Because of this the killer was caught and executed. Still there are many other real life stories and all are genuine. Regarding heaven, Buddhism does not say heaven. Instead The Buddha preached that there are separate 31 planes of existence. What we all know is our physical world. There are different lives on this earth. All human beings are in manussa bhumi or human realm. Animals are easy to see and very common. But they are in a separate real called 'tiricchana bhumi'. APAYA BHUMIS AND HELL: This word 'tiricchana' was preached by The Buddha. Tiricchana composes 'ti' and 'chanda'. They have 3 desires. They will sleep, will eat, and will have sex. There is hardly any wholesome actions in that realm. Peta bhumi or the plane of hungry ghost and asurakaya bhumi are another 2 realms which are apaya bhumis or woeful planes of existence. There are real life events who experienced ghosts. In some areas there are festival that feeds the ghosts who are the past parents or relatives of unidentified people of current world. Asurakaya is also a separate bhumi or separate plane of existence. There are people who experienced such experience with asurakaya with the current life body and mind. One of my close friend had been to HELL with the current body and mind. He a relative rather than friend but he is about 3rd or 4th cousin. He used to abuse Buddhist monks. Whenever monks stood in front of his house he would abuse with words and never offer anything. The words were so nasty that they should not appear on this forum. He did this for some time. Once he was nowhere. He was a drinker. So no one recognised his lost. Here you may argue that this may well be hallucination. But he reappeared in his house and shouting in the voice of 'calling for help'. At that time he was not insane. He was mentally sound. He shouted 'Help me acariyas, I am extremely frightened. I will never abuse again. I will not drink again and I will do wholesome things. Help me out'. He stops drinking and stops abusing monks. Instead he offers regular alm food to monks, worship them and help them whenever they need anything like medicine, cloth, books etc etc. When he was asked, he well described the HELL. He was in HELL with the current body while he was lost from the human world. As far as people knew there was no trace of him while he was not in his home that is total lost from the scene. He experienced HELL and he is no more his 'past him' who abuse monks. HEAVEN: Heaven has been talked above. Buddhism does not have heaven. Instead The Buddha preached there are 31 planes of existence. Heaven as non- Buddhists think may be Deva realms. Devas sometimes do have communication with worldly people. But Brahmas hardly do any communication. Brahmas only have eyes and ears as form. They only come to human realm for the reason to worship The Buddha and to listen The Buddha's teachings. The reason why they have eyes and ears is this that is to experience The Buddha's Dhamma. They do not have any sensuous pleasure. So heavenly beings that are in contact with people are only Devas. Even among Devas, higher orders do not come to human realms unless there is a strong reason. Most Devas that are in contact with people are from the lowest order that is 'Catumaharaja Bhumi'. Catu means four and maharaja means great king. Indra or Sakka is the king of Deva world and he also sometimes come to human realm. But mostly when there is a Sammasambuddha. There are some monks who had been to Deva realms with current body and mind that is with this current life. These may sound hard-to- prove but they do exist. The Buddha preached their existence. NIBBANA: This is also hard to understand and one of hard-to-prove thing especially for non-Buddhists and those who are just beginners. But there are people who really experienced NIBBANA with this current body and mind that is in this life. For this the story of 'The turtle and the fish' will have to retell. But there do exist those who experience NIBBANA. NIBBANA is not a sight. It is not a sound. It is not a smell. It is not a taste. It cannot be touched. But it exists and it is one of 4 ultimate realities or one of 4 ultimate truths May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 36787 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Sep 23, 2004 2:34am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Toll Booth Operators and the Brahmaviharas Hi Phil, A few of your own posts addressed your own questions and dilemmas better than anything I could have said. For example, to Andrew in (36648), you wrote on metta: --- plnao wrote: >I would go for walks in the > local > park and kind of beam metta around > me. I just can't see that being right practice. Later, when better > understanding (in my opinion) arose, I would go > for walks, and be aware of aversion arising, say because of a man > spitting, > and then metta for this and mudita for > that and more metta and karuna and a lot of indifferent stretches in > between. Aware of these moments coming and > going in an unconntrolled way. And this helps me to cultivate wisdom > that > will eradicate hindrances, starting with the > coarse ones, and this will allow metta to flow more freely without the > need > to generate it at home. ... S: As you indicate, wisdom is the key here. Your comments on the extract from ‘Deeds of Merit’ (36644) were spot on too. ‘wholesome and unwholesome cittas in quick succession’. Btw, I have a friend I practise yoga with. She used to be a well-known actress and ballerina and always has a lovely smile, even when doing extreme back-bends which I know must entail a fair amount of painful feeling. She always looks kind and equanimous, but it’s largely due to her (admirable) training. Another lady in the group never smiles, but I really don’t think we can make too many judgments based on the different tendencies and trainings here. Some cultures stress smiling much more than others. I loved your description of moving into the new home of brahma-viharas and letting them gradually take shape. ‘We come to abide in metta, karuna, mudita and upekkha in line with our progress along the path. the abiding arises. We can’t move in until we are moved in by conditions’. Well put, and as I said, this is the answer to the other points about defilements. Also, you’re right when you refer to the ‘pervading in all directions’ of metta in the light of jhanas. Not something to be done, but a culmination of the development of metta accompanied with a very fine, penetrating understanding of its nature and of the subtlest of defilements which are temporarily suspended at these times. There’s more on this in U.P. under metta from the comy to the Metta Discourse, I think. It refers to the ‘pervading’ whilst in jhana. It’s the culmination of a very highly developed practise of samatha. We can start to just develop a little metta when we have the chance in daily life as you discuss (like when we’re asked to take out the rubbish whilst posting on the list;-)). Anyway, as you know, I also have accumulations to chatter too much.... Metta, Sarah ===== 36788 From: jwromeijn Date: Thu Sep 23, 2004 3:12am Subject: Re: Dhamma Thread ( 069 ) Dear Htoo Naing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" wrote: > > We have discussed all 89 states of mind. All 89 cittas have been > touched. When these 89 cittas are understood, learning of mind > phenomena becomes much more easier than without knowledge of these 89 > cittas. Whoever at any time will have a citta. This citta may be one > of these 89 cittas. > > Another reality is cetasikas. There are 52 different cetasikas. > Before going deep into cetasika dhamma, it is good to discuss cittas Because you finished (I think) about 'citta' in the Dhamma Thread and nearly finished your comments on nama about the ebook of RobM, I had the hope you started with the topic 'RUPA'. But I read you continue with Cetasika. Why? Why do you and many scholars of the Abhidhamma do have so little interest in rupa? Is that the idea that 'mind' is higher than 'matter'? In your article about Patthana (found in the 'Files') you once said: "Rupa: This is things in the worlds or in the universe after excluding nama dhamma. It is material things. Some of rupa are substance or materials. Science says many are complex materials, many are compound materials, and some are elements. Element here is being talked on scientific elements like hydrogen, oxygen, nitrogen, carbon. Ultimate things in physical world from science view are proton, neutron, electron etc. But rupa is more than that." I have some questions to you about 'rupa'. The reason is I want to be a buddhist, accept that the insights of (modern) natural sciences is not important, soteriological seen; but don't accept a unscientific interpretation of the Dhamma. - You said: "Rupa is more than that" Or had we to say: "Rupa is something else than that" ? "Mahabhuta" is many times translated with "(great) elements", that is "fundamentally building blocks". And the four are many times translated with earth, water, heat and air: that are not fundamental building blocks at all, to me that is not a problem because that names are a wrong interpretation, do you agree? - Don't you agree with me that "rupa" should not be translated with "matter" but with "matter as experienced by a human" or with "material qualities" ? This because the BUDDHA WAS SILENT ABOUT PHYSICS and the Abhidhamma should not be seen as a ontology but as a phenomenology, as Ven. Nyanaponika has explained - Don't you agree that nama versus rupa should not be understood as the dichotomy mind-matter in western philosophy (R. Descartes)? - How to combine the idea (of many abhidhammists) that nama is more important than rupa with the teaching of the Middle Way of the Buddha? - Do you think it is fundamentally possible to modernize the list of rupa, still using them as paramatthas? - Nearly all you and others write about Abhidhamma is how it works with a human being. But we should not be anthropocentric. How does nama and rupa and the interaction of them work with an animal? With metta Joop 36789 From: jwromeijn Date: Thu Sep 23, 2004 3:13am Subject: Fare the well, friend Herman ( was Re: [dsg] "... as parasites a tree." ???) Dear Phil Thanks for your sincere reaction. Not to continue our discussion for weeks but some feedback: You said: So personally I take the commentaries with the greatest respect, but don't consider them part of the Canon. … I suppose it could be argued that without the commentaries, the Abhidhamma would be impentrable to modern Buddhist, so the commentaries should be considered part and parcel with Abhidhamma. I don't know if that's true. Joop: I agree. When I study the Abhidhammattha Sangaha I hardly read the translation of the pali original but prefer the "guides" of Bhikkhu Bodhi. And that is an example of what I stated in another message some weeks ago: the Commentaries are a screen between the Teachings of the Buddha and a modern man who tries to understand them, we need modern commentaries, with modern metaphores, similes etc. Phil: When I first heard about vibrating bhavanga cittas, and 17 cittas in a process, my rational mind wondered how on earth anyone would know that, and truth be told I thought it sounded a bit silly. Joop: I think this can be combined with modern science how the brain works, so I accept it too and don't call it 'faith' because in this case it doesn't matter me if it had to be taken literal or metaphorical. In other cases it matters to me; my reaction then is not 'faith' or 'disbelief' but an agnostic view as exolained by Stephen Batchelor ('Buddhism without beliefs') Phil: I guess you're not a North American Joop: No, I am from the 'Old Europe' as mr Rumsfield once called it. On one theme you did not react: my statement that I'm more interested in the future than in the past of Theravada, because that's the main reason that I prefer the scond of my constructed 'groups' and not the topi of 'faith' With metta Joop 36790 From: Date: Wed Sep 22, 2004 11:15pm Subject: Re: [dsg] ‘Cetasikas' study corner18-Contact / Phassa(d) Hi, Sarah (and Nina) - In a message dated 9/23/04 3:38:21 AM Eastern Daylight Time, sarahprocterabbott@y... writes: > Dear Friends, > > Cetasikas by Nina van Gorkom. > > http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html > http://www.zolag.co.uk/ > Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) > ========================================== > [Ch.1, Contact (Phassa)contd] > ***** > We read in the 'Discourse of the Honey-ball' (Middle Length > sayings I, no. 18) that Maha-kaccana explained to the monks concerning > contact: > > -This situation occurs: that when there is eye, your reverences, when > -there is visible object, when there is visual consciousness, one will > -recognise the manifestation of sensory impingement (phassa)... > > When there is the concurrence of the ear, sound and hearing-consciousness, > there is the manifestation of ear-contact. When there is the concurrence > of body-sense, a tangible object such as hardness and the experience of > hardness, there is the manifestation of body-contact. Eye-contact is > different from ear-contact and different from body-contact. At each moment > of citta there is a different phassa which conditions the citta to > experience an object. > > Phassa is not the doorway through which citta experiences an object. > In the case of a sense-door process the rupa which is one of the senses is > doorway and in the case of a mind-door process nama is doorway, namely the > last bhavanga-citta arising before the mind-door adverting-consciousness, > the first citta of the mind-door process (1) > ..... > (1)See Introduction. > ***** > [Contact (Phassa) to be contd] > > Metta, > > Sarah > ================================ The foregoing displays, I believe, a subtle difference between Abhidhamma Pitaka and Sutta Pitaka. In the suttas, it is said that sense-door object and (activated/energized/arisen) sense organ serve to condition corresponding sense consciousness, and *the coming together of the three* is contact. But here contact seems to be presented as a subtle, mental, kammic formation - a formation within sankharakkhandha - which *manifests* as that convergence, i.e., which is a needed condition for the convergence of the three. As Nina writes, for example: "When there is the concurrence of body-sense, a tangible object such as hardness and the experience of hardness, there is the manifestation of body-contact." Do you see the difference? In the suttas contact is the convergence, itself - the event of concurrence, whereas in Abhidhamma it is a dhamma that is a condition for that. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 36791 From: htootintnaing Date: Thu Sep 23, 2004 3:19am Subject: Theory and Practice _Sukin & Htoo Dear Sukin, Sarah and All, I hope the discussion 'Theory & Practice_Sukin & Htoo' will be beneficial as to how we should follow the genuine practice. Now I change the original heading with the same heading of this post as if it is a new one. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Sukinderpal Singh Narula" wrote: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: Dear Htoo, Ongoing discussion: [ Sukin & Htoo ] Sukin: >Sukin: >I will come back to this later in the post. S> My point here is to discuss about what a beginner needs to hear. For someone with good accumulation of panna, reference to bodily postures may condition an awareness of paramattha dhammas. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I agree. Through your communication, what I understand that you understand is right. Postures may do as you said. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: However someone who is not firm in pariyatti, this may cause him to think that standing, sitting, moving and so on are `realities' to be observed. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I understand. But some develop on their own accord. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: It is so easy for lobha to be conditioned at any point. So I think for someone with still very weak accumulations of panna, mistaking wrong awareness for sati is very likely to happen, and this will = then condition attachment to the practice. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: This is a good point. You seem to see very subtle lobha. Good. That is good for you. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: I think it is very important to study first the Teachings and come to know = exactly what satipatthana means and to question any advice for a practice. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: So say understanding first. Understanding comes from study of The Buddha's Dhamma. You are right. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: I understand that there are some people who believe that one must start with the above kind of practice, and that later on one then comes to `observe' paramattha dhammas. I think this is wrong. The correct practice must in my opinion, start with correct intellectual understanding. Do you agree with this? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I largely agree. But may I ask you a question? Did Bodhisatta Siddhattha have correct understanding before arising of magga cittas? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >Htoo: >I accept that. You mean direct knowledge? S> Yes, patipatti. ----------------------------------------------------------------- >Sukin: >I do believe that you are not boasting, I think that you are very >sincere. But allow me to express my view about the development of >sati and panna. >Htoo: I like these two words. I would say there is no panna without sati. But there are sati without panna. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: S> One reason I stress these two words is because many people tend to link the development of `concentration' with the development of panna. I think there is no basis for such a connection. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I think you are referring to magga panna. But all rupavacara rupa jhanas and arupavacara arupa jhanas do have panna as their accompanying cetasika. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >Sukin: >Yes, I do disagree. As I said above, I don't think there can be any >control as to what will be the object of citta and whether there will be right or wrong view with regard to it. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >Htoo: I know that there is no control. Formal practice I mean sitting in usual position of lotus. >I am not sitting in order to 'arise my sati, my panna, my samadhi, my concentration'. But I do sit daily. I discern on what I experienced while I am sitting. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: S> If it is natural for you to sit, I think it is fine. Different people have different reasons for doing things. The Bhikkhus during the Buddha's time......But even they would not `choose' this in preference to any other duty that they may have. I think the example they set is not so that we `imitate' their outward behavior, but to delve into the cause which lead to where they finally arrived. And this is to consider the conditioned realities arising in daily life no matter what our outward circumstance might be, starting first with pariyatti, I think. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo; I have started pariyatti for a long long time. Patipatti follows a bit later. Yes. You are right. Pariyatti first. Without proper understanding there are deep cliff of lobha or attachment. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: S> But the tendency to wrong view and attachment is so strong that we have all the time to be reminded about the basics and shown the different manifestations of wrong practice. If we are not in constant touch with the right teachings and be in the company of wise friends sharing our understandings, then I think it is very easy to go wrong. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: True, Sukin. Thank you. This is right. Constant touch is essential. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: S> I think these individuals would least need to `sit in order to practice' and instead would `practice no matter what they did'. But as I expressed above, I think `sitting' was their normal and natural activity. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I agree. I meant activity. Yes it is activity. Their sitting is activity. Should other people not do these activities while they are trying to understand The Buddha's Dhamma? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >Htoo: >Could you please explain silabattaparamasa? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: S> This is the dictionary meaning: > >>sílabbata-parámása and -upádána: 'attachment (or clinging) to mere rules and ritual', is the 3rd of the 10 fetters (samyojana, q.v.), and one = of the 4 kinds of clinging (upádána, q.v.). It disappears on attaining to Stream-entry (sotápatti). For definition, s. upádána.<With Metta, >Htoo Naing > Metta, > Sukin. 36792 From: htootintnaing Date: Thu Sep 23, 2004 3:55am Subject: Re: Dhamma Thread ( 069 ) Dear Joop, Thank you very much for your reply. Citta discussion has not finished. Comment on Rob M ebook also has not finished yet. The problem with ebook is that, I could not download it. It may take some time. Below is discussion on what you asked. With Metta, Htoo Naing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jwromeijn" wrote: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Joop: Dear Htoo Naing Because you finished (I think) about 'citta' in the Dhamma Thread and nearly finished your comments on nama about the ebook of RobM, I had the hope you started with the topic 'RUPA'. But I read you continue with Cetasika. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I think cetasikas are much much more important. Because kusala, akusala are cetasikas. If cetasikas and their functions are well understood then study of citta will become much more easier. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Joop: Why? Why do you and many scholars of the Abhidhamma do have so little interest in rupa? Is that the idea that 'mind' is higher than 'matter'? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Rupa is also needed to be understood. I did not leave its importance. Some people readily see rupa rather than namma. For those sorts of people Ayatanas are taught where 10 ayatanas are all rupa. To understand Ayatana rupas have to be explained. Nothing is higher. What did you mean bt 'mind is higher than matter'? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Joop: In your article about Patthana (found in the 'Files') you once said: >>> Htoo's File.."Rupa: This is things in the worlds or in the universe after excluding nama dhamma. It is material things. Some of rupa are substance or materials. Science says many are complex materials, many are compound materials, and some are elements. Element here is being talked on scientific elements like hydrogen, oxygen, nitrogen, carbon. Ultimate things in physical world from science view are proton, neutron, electron etc. But rupa is more than that." Joop:I have some questions to you about 'rupa'. The reason is I want to be a buddhist, accept that the insights of (modern) natural sciences is not important, soteriological seen; but don't accept a unscientific interpretation of the Dhamma. - You said: "Rupa is more than that" Or had we to say: "Rupa is something else than that" ? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Rupas which serve as ayatanas are more than proton, neutron, electron. Rupa is more than that. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Joop: "Mahabhuta" is many times translated with "(great) elements", that is "fundamentally building blocks". And the four are many times translated with earth, water, heat and air: that are not fundamental building blocks at all, to me that is not a problem because that names are a wrong interpretation, do you agree? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Earth that you see, water that you see, fire that you see, movement that you see are not 'Mahabhuta'. So they are not building block. These words may be wrong interpretation unless they are said in the specific setting that is not the earth that we can see, not the water that we can see, not the fire that we can see and not the evidence of air that we can see as movement. Yes, I agree. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Joop: - Don't you agree with me that "rupa" should not be translated with "matter" but with "matter as experienced by a human" or with "material qualities" ? --------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: No. I do not agree here. We have discussed 'smelled smell and unsmelled smell'. Rupas are rupas and they are real existence. They are not to be confined to anthropocentric. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Joop: This because the BUDDHA WAS SILENT ABOUT PHYSICS and the Abhidhamma should not be seen as a ontology but as a phenomenology, as Ven. Nyanaponika has explained - Don't you agree that nama versus rupa should not be understood as the dichotomy mind-matter in western philosophy (R. Descartes)? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I do not know western philosophy of dichotomy. But mind and matter always work together and they are interdependent except in some circumstances like asannisatta and arupa brahmas. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Joop: - How to combine the idea (of many abhidhammists) that nama is more important than rupa with the teaching of the Middle Way of the Buddha? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: 'More important' from which perspective? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Joop: - Do you think it is fundamentally possible to modernize the list of rupa, still using them as paramatthas? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Rupas are to be experienced and to be known not just to be listed. If experienced, marks on them that is tilakkhana of anicca, dukkha, and anatta will be cognised and finally liberated. Without rupa support, there is no way to be liberated. Rupa is also important. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Joop: - Nearly all you and others write about Abhidhamma is how it works with a human being. But we should not be anthropocentric. How does nama and rupa and the interaction of them work with an animal? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Abhidhamma have included everything. Upekkha sahagatam akusala vipaka santirana citta is patisandhi citta of animals. This again is also final citta of that life in animals serving as cuti citta. In between as long as they are alive and not on the sense door process, there are santirana cittas arising as bhavanaga cittas. Is this anthropocentric? Abhidhamma is for everyone. Abhidhamma do not have to be adapted for animal lovers and pet lovers. May you be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing > With metta > Joop 36793 From: plnao Date: Thu Sep 23, 2004 4:03am Subject: Re: Fare the well, friend Herman ( was Re: [dsg] "... as parasites a tree." ???) Hi Joop. >On one theme you did not react: my statement that I'm more interested >in the future than in the past of Theravada, because that's the main >reason that I prefer the second of my constructed 'groups' and not the .topic of 'faith' This is another area I can relate to, and it's another reason I would have been in that second of the groups myself some months ago. I live in a non-Theravadin Buddhist country (Japan) and have felt keen interest in participating in some very small way to a revival of what I consider to be the True Dhamma here. (With the exception of Soka Gakai, which may or may not be Buddhist, there is little enthusiasm for Buddhism amoung modern Japanese - it seems to be something that is pulled out and paid for when funerals roll around, and little more than that. My apologies if anyone is offended by that - it's certainly a generalization.) So I have thought about how the Buddhist's teachings could be made accessible to people. That's why I was interested in your comment about "modern metaphors" that you made some weeks ago. Now I have come to feel that the decline of Buddhism is inevitable here, and is happening in a way that was predicted by the Buddha. (Thanks to Robert K for having helped me understand that when we had our talk.) I have become detached from a desire to someday be involved in propogating theravada here in any way, though who knows what conditions may bring along. But when my enthusiasm in that direction was stronger, I often regretted lieteral interpretations of dhamma and was concerned about how unpalatable they would make the Dhamma to contemporary people. Now I am more likely to regret the aversion these contemporary people have to words like "defilement", and observe their unwillingness to tolerate the Buddha's teaching that miserable conditions in this lifetime can be a result of unwholesome deeds in the past, and other tough to take but nevertheless irrefutable (if one goes by the Buddha's teaching) aspects of Dhamma. The future of Theravada? I wouldn't cling to hopes there. Even in Thailand it shows signs of being swamped by fundamentalist Christianity. But I do still hope that I can take some elements of the Buddha's teaching and weave them into children's writing, where I have dormant ambitions. But that won't be Theravada, and it won't have anything to do with real liberation. It will be exploitation of Dhamma in a very indirect way for the temporary sense of well-being of the reader. Real liberation through Dhamma lies in accepting some very uncomfy truths and letting go of notions of self-control that are just too deeply embedded in modern society. It won't happen, methinks. But never say never..... Metta, Phil 36794 From: htootintnaing Date: Thu Sep 23, 2004 4:20am Subject: Re: [dsg] ‘Cetasikas' study corner18-Contact /Phassa(d) Dear Sarah, It is good to go slow. I would write in small paragraphs rather than long and confusing, idea-losing paragraphs. You will see when I write I just use 4 or 5 sentences for a paragraph. I like the style now you are presenting about Nina's Ceatsikas book. With Metta, Htoo Naing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Dear Friends, > > Cetasikas by Nina van Gorkom. > > http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html > http://www.zolag.co.uk/ > Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) > ========================================== > [Ch.1, Contact (Phassa)contd] > ***** > We read in the 'Discourse of the Honey-ball' (Middle Length > sayings I, no. 18) that Maha-kaccana explained to the monks concerning > contact: > > -This situation occurs: ......... > (1)See Introduction. > ***** > [Contact (Phassa) to be contd] > > Metta, > > Sarah > ====== 36795 From: plnao Date: Thu Sep 23, 2004 4:39am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Paying respect. Hello Nina, and all > > Yes, Herman, I walk with eyes open through the Gates of > > Abhidhamma and kneel at the feet of my teachers, K Sujin > > and K. Nina. The supreme teacher, the Buddha, is there with them, as he is > > there with you on your Dhamma path. > N: Phil, I pay respect to your kusala citta for your appreciation of the > Dhamma. Ph: Thank you Nina. It's interesting. When I wrote this yesterday, I was in one of my silly, chatty moods and enjoyed writing this in a somewhat tongue in cheek way. And yet, along with that unwholesome mental state, there was wholesome respect as well. And underneath the mock medieval imagery, there was a kind of wholesome resolution or something. There is always a lot going on behind every sentence an unenlightened person says or writes. Thus, this is mutual respect and appreciation because of the Dhamma. > This is a lovely custom in Thailand and very natural. As I mentioned before, > when in India on the last day of each pilgimage, we are all sitting on the > ground, and then we kneel and pay respect to each other for all the kusala > that people performed during the trip. We do not think of persons, we think > of the kusala citta. Ph: I wonder if conditions will arise that lead me to do something like that before and after I read and write messages at DSG. Now there is not enough awareness of respect for everyone here (including the people I can't see Dhamma eye to Dhamma eye with) and gratitude. Well, it does arise on occasion. Better than never. > People who do not know you and who, being not familiar with Asian customs, > read your post, may misunderstand you, thinking that you are glorifying > persons, but I know you don't. It is the Dhamma that counts, not the persons > by means of whom you come into contact with the Dhamma. Ph: I think so too. Thus I am sometimes uncomfortable with the way dana is practiced towards clergy in Asia. There is a sense that they are more worth of Dana by the virtue of their status - there are those teachings about the value of dana depending on the value of the person who receives it. If I gave K Sujin a loaf of my delicious banana bread would it have more dana merit than if I gave it to my foul-mouthed co-worker Roger? Technically speaking it would. But if a person like yourself takes the Buddha's teaching and passes it on to her readers in a way that gives at least right intellectual understanding as well as fueling enthusiasm that might lead to further understanding in practice, well, there is respect for the person and the hard work that went into the books. Yes, that hard work was Dhamma, so it is Dhamma we are talking about, but in a conventional sense we should acknowlege the person. >By the way, one > correction, I am not a Dhamma teacher. Ph: But if a lot of people learn from you, doesn't that make you a teacher? Is there a certain formal procedure in becoming a Dhamma teacher that you haven't taken? Since I haven't had a chance to deal directly with K Sujin there is a tendency - to be honest- to think of you as my teacher rather than her. That is why I am making a point to read K Sujin's books and phrases to remind myself that without her you wouldn't have the insight that you do. Have I fallen into glorifying people again? It is all Dhamma. > I like to pay respect to anybody on this list who helps me to consider a > little more and understand a little more the Dhamma. Some with their > pertinent questions, others with a remark here and there, although they may > not even realize how they have helped me. And I know very little about some > of them, except their posts. I will not mention names, that is not > necessary. With appreciation and gratefulness to all, > Nina. Metta, Phil p.s thanks also for all feedback in other threads that i haven't responded too. 36796 From: htootintnaing Date: Thu Sep 23, 2004 5:32am Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 069 ) & Explanation Dear Dhamma Friends, This is to support Dhamma Thread. With Metta, Htoo Naing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- I think citta does not need any more explanation. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Another reality is cetasikas. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Cetasika also does not need to explain more. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > It is said that 'itthamekuuna navuti pabhedam pana maanasam. Ekaviisa satamvaatha, vibhajanti vicakkhanaa'. Those who are wise also critically count cittas as 121 cittas ( eka visa satam_1, 20, 100 = 121 cittas in total ). ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Etha/ ittha means 'these' 'such things'. Ekuuna is made up of 'eka' and 'uuna'. Eka is 'one' and 'uuna' means reduction or deduction. Ekuuna means 'deduction of one'. Nava is 'nine'. Navuti means 'ninety'. Ekuuna navuti means 1-reducing-90. That means 89. This is 89 cittas in total. Pabhedam means 'detailing'. In the spread form. Maanasam means 'citta'. Eka = 1, viisa = 20, satam = 100. So there are 121 cittas in total. Vaatha means 'in the other way'. Vicakkhana means 'the wise'. Vibhajanti means 'criticise', study, consider. There are 89 cittas and they are also learned as 121 cittas in the other way. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > There are cittas which are kamavacaras, which are rupavacaras, and > which are arupavacaras. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Kamaavacara = dhamma related to kama bhumis. Kama here means 5 senses and related 6th sense. Avacara means 'frequently arising'. Kamavacara means frequently arising in kama bhumi. Kamaavacara cittas are most or almost all of the cittas that arise in kama bhumis. There are 4 apaya kama bhumis, 1 manussa bhumi or human realm, 6 deva bhumis. Kamaavacara cittas can also arise in rupa bhumis and arupa bhumis. Rupaavacara = Rupa + avacara. The same as kamaavacara. Rupa here means rupa brahma bhumis. Not rupa of rupa dhamma. Arupavacara = Arupa + avacara. Arupa here means arupa brahmas. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >Just before magga cittas arise, there always arise kamavacara mahakusala cittas namely parikamma, upacara, and anuloma. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Magga = path. Here it is the Path to Nibbana. Magga cittas are path- consciousness seeing nibbana as their object. They are lokuttara cittas. Loka means kama loka, rupa loka, and arupa loka that is kama bhumis, rupa bhumis, arupa bhumis. Uttara means noble, superior, 'beyond' loka. Lokuttara means 'not related to lokas' and it means ' superior to loka' 'beyond lokas'. Maha = great, kusala = wholesome Parikamma = preparatory Upacara = proximity Anuloma = suitability, in straight forward order Parikamma prepares. Upacara is like a crown-prince. He has a deputy power. It is close to higher citta. So it is said proximity consciousness. Anuloma negotiates. It adjusts with lower cittas and next arising higher cittas. It also means advancing because it arises in straight forward order. As soon as anuloma arises, citta will not go back. Instead it steps forward to higher stage. Before arising of anuloma citta, all vipassana cittas can go back to non-vipassana cittas. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >Those who do not attain jhanas when they are right and fully > perfected for magga cittas to arise, the series that has been > described in the previous posts arise. Magga and phala cittas arise > in this way, there will be 8 total lokuttara cittas. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Jhana are dhammas that destroy hindrances. Phala are fruit and they are fruition-consciousness. That means they are the resultant consciousness due to their counterpart magga cittas or path-consciousness. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > But those who attain 8 jhanas that is all 5 rupa jhanas and all 4 > rupa jhanas, if thier magga cittas arise in the vicinity of these > jhanas, these lokuttara cittas are counted as lokuttara jhana cittas. > There are 5 rupa jhanas as there are 5 total jhana factors. All arupa > jhanas have ekaggata jhana factor and upekkha vedana as in case of > 5th rupa jhana. So all arupa jhanas can be counted as 5th jhana > because they do have jhana factors of the 5th jhana. > > When in the 1st jhana, the object is the object of jhana. It is not a > paramattha dhamma. If object is not paramattha dhamma, there is no > reason to discern anicca, dukkha, anatta in that object which > actually do not exist. But magga citta can arise in the vicinity of > jhana cittas and these magga cittas do have the same cetasikas that > jhana cittas have. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- I think all these are clear and not need to explain. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > The practitioner starts with paikamma bhavana and then moves up to > upacara bhavana. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Bhavana is mental cultivation. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >Unlike those without jhanas, these practitioners who > attain jhanas will rise up to appana bhavana. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Appana = close look. So close that looker and lookee fuse. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >This jhana appana > bhavana is rupavacara rupa jhana citta and when in 1st jhana, all > arising jhana cittas one after another are absorbed into the jhana > object. At a time, as their predetermined period has lapsed they > emerge from their 1st jhana and then they do paccavakkhana. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Paccavakkhana is to characterise, to scrutinise, to check, to examine. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >At that time and in those vithi vara, cittas are not rupavacara > cittas. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Vithi means 'serial and in the right order'. There is a highway road joining two cities. In between are many towns and villages. The road is a single and the only road. If the road is followed the towns and villages appear serially and no town missed or no village missed out. Like this panca dvara vithi cittas arise in exact manner depending on their vara. Vara = turn, the turn If there are 10 people coming one after another, if one has gone, next coming man is 2nd. Next coming is 3rd. The 4th turn is for the 4th man. The 5th turn is for the 5th man etc etc. In vara there are different vara. Some have full series of vithi cittas, some do not have tadarammana cittas, some do not have javana cittas and so on. This is about vara. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >Instead they all are kamavacara mahakusala tihetuka cittas. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Tihetuka = Ti + Hetuka , ti = 3, hetu means root. hetu are root causes of nama dhamma. They are lobha or attachment, dosa or aversion, moha or delusion, alobha or dana or non-attachment, adosa or non-aversion, amoha or non-delusion or panna. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > They see paramattha dhamma and they see the marks on paramattha > dhamma and realise that these paramattha dhamma are all impermanent, > suffering, and not self. After paccavakkhana, these vithi vara arise > and this is followed by bhavanga cittas. Bhavangas again stop and > there arise manodvara avajjana citta arise. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Bhavanga = bhava + anga. Bhava is life. Anga is part. Mano is mind, dvara means door. Avajjana means 'turn the attention to', 'contemplate on'. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > After that parikamma kamavacara mahakusala citta arises. The object > is jhana citta and its cetasikas and their marks. This high direct > knowledge is then transferred to next citta called upacara kamavacara > mahakusala citta. This gives its object to anuloma kamavacara > mahakusala citta. These 3 cittas, parikamma, upacara, anuloma cittas > do have the same jhana cetasikas as their preceeding jhana cittas. In > the vicinity of jhana cittas these vithi varas arise and after > gotrabhu citta, 'vitakka, vicara, piti, sukhekaggata sahitam > sotapatti magga pathamajjhana lokuttara kusala citta' arises. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Vitakka, vicara, piti, sukha and ekaggata are cetasikas and they will be explained in cetasika portion. Sahitam means 'saha' that is along with, together with, mixed with, composed in. These 5 cetasika and their citta are inseparable. They are mixed. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > This is 82nd if cittas are counted as 121 cittas. But to avoid > confusion, 40 lokuttara cittas will not be numbered again. Lokuttara > cittas are all appana samadhi cittas....... magga nana and phala nana. Jhana here is not rupavacara rupa jhanas or arupavacara arupa jhanas but they all are lokuttara appana jhana. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- I think all other words have been explained. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 36797 From: htootintnaing Date: Thu Sep 23, 2004 6:15am Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 070 ) Dear Dhamma Friends, When lokuttara cittas arise in the vicinity of rupavacara jhanas or arupavacara jhana, they are referred to as lokuttara jhana cittas. Here we need to be clear that all magga cittas and phala cittas whether they arise in the vicinity of kamavacara mahakusala tihetuka cittas or in the vicinity of rupavacara rupakusala tihetuka cittas or arupavacara arupakusala tihetuka citta, they all are lokuttara cittas. All these lokuttara cittas have appana samadhi. Samadhi are a collection of ekaggata cetasikas that successively arise with successively arising cittas. If the object is a single object, then it is more concentrated. In jhanas there is a single object that is the object for jhana. In maggas, there is only a single object. It is nibbana. By the same token, all phala cittas have a single object and it is nibbana. In kamavacara cittas, if there is a single object and each arising citta takes that single object, it is said to be well concentrated. If objects are changing like 'thinking on a tree, then think about a river, then think about a train, then about a child, then about a book, etc etc, then this is quite evident that how scatter cittas are and how upset cittas are and they are not concentrated. All lokuttara cittas are concentrated well. The concentration in them is samma-samadhi of Noble Eightfold Path and this is no doubt. Samma means good, right, wholesome. All good concentration may be assumed as samma-samadhi. That is samadhi which are not miccha- samadhi are samma-samadhi. But if the accompanying citta is not of one of 8 lokuttara citta, then it nis not of the samma-samadhi of Noble Eightfold Path. This samadhi is called lokuttara samadhi. There are lokiya samadhi. They may be samma-samadhi if they are not miccha-samadhi. If someone says ''only jhana cittas are samma-samadhi'', I have no reason to deny them. But this samadhi is lokiya samadhi. Not of lokuttara samadhi, which again is samma-samadhi of Noble Eightfold Path. If they think that 'only jhanas are samma-samadhi and without jhanas magga and phala cannot be obtained', they can practise their way there and I have no right to stop anyone. Those who did not have any rupavacara rupa jhanas and arupavacara arupa jhanas once developed the highest nana and attained magga nana, then magga cittas and phala cittas arose in them are all 8 pure lokuttara cittas. These 8 cittas have been discussed in the previous posts. When these 8 lokuttara cittas arise in the vicinity of rupavacara rupa jhanas or arupavacara arupa jhanas, they do have the same character that is the same amount of cetasikas that rupavacara jhanas and arupavacara jhanas have. The only difference is that lokuttara jhana cittas all look at nibbana instead of jhana objects. There is no citta that takes 2 objects at the same moment or at the same cittakkhana. They are looking at nibbana, they are taking nibbana as their object. So they are lokuttara cittas. On the other hand, they arise in the vicinity of rupavacara jhanas or arupavacara jhanas. So they do have the same cetasikas as rupavacara jhanas or arupavacara jhanas. As there are 5 jhanas, then there are 40 lokuttara jhana cittas. They are 1. vitakka, vicara, piti, sukhekaggata sahitam sotapatti magga pathamajjhana lokuttara kusala citta 2. vicara, piti, sukhekaggata sahitam sotapatti magga dutiyajjhana lokuttara kusala citta 3. piti, sukhekaggata sahitam sotapatti magga tatiyajjhana lokuttara kusala citta 4. sukhekaggata sahitam sotapatti magga catutthajjhana lokuttara kusala citta 5. upekkhekaggata sahitam sotapatti magga pancamajjhana lokuttara kusala citta 6. vitakka, vicara, piti, sukhekaggata sahitam sotapatti phala pathamajjhana lokuttara vipaka citta 7. vicara, piti, sukhekaggata sahitam sotapatti phala dutiyajjhana lokuttara vipaka citta 8. piti, sukhekaggata sahitam sotapatti phala tatiyajjhana lokuttara vipaka citta 9. sukhekaggata sahitam sotapatti phala catutthajjhana lokuttara vipaka citta 10.upekkhekaggata sahitam sotapatti phala pancamajjhana lokuttara vipaka citta. 11 to 20 are sakadagami, 21 to 30 are anagami, and 31 to 40 are arahatta. So there will be in total 40 lokuttara jhana cittas. Their object is nibbana and not object of rupa jhana or arupa jhana. They are appana citta because they have appana samadhi. They all are absorbed into the object nibbana. Not only these 40 lokuttara jhana cittas are absorbed into the object nibbana, magga and phala cittas which arise without rupavacara jhanas or arupavacara jhanas are also appana cittas. They that is 8 lokuttara cittas all have appana samadhi. They can also be called as jhana. That is why dhammapada says 'without jhana, no panna and without panna, no jhana'. This referred to lokuttara cittas. This does not refer to rupavacara rupa jhana cittas nor arupavacara arupa jhana cittas. I do not say they are not good. They all are good and they are very powerful to suppress all kilesas and kilesa cannot arise in the presence of these 8 jhanas. But not all those who attain 8 jhanas are arahats or anagams or sakadagams or sotapams but puthujana can attain all 8 jhanas. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS:Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome and they will be valuable. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts. 36798 From: plnao Date: Thu Sep 23, 2004 7:17am Subject: Self control for crude defilements? (was Re: [dsg] most moving Buddha quote9 Hi Sarah > Phil, I also wished to add that I think it's natural that when we hear, > consider and begin to appreciate the great value of the teachings on > anatta, that we continue to look for loop-holes such as looking to perform > good deeds which will bring good results or try to organise our lives in a > way to avoid excesses with a deep-rooted idea that we really do have some > control and so on. In discussions on performing merit including dana, as > we've both discussed, the motives and cittas tend to be very mixed. When > we're so concerned to be the one performing dana, at times isn't this a > clinging to self, clinging to being the kind person who receives good > results? I was thinking about this today. I am definitely moving closer to understanding the futility of thinking one has control in eradicating defilements, but I am still thinking about whether there is a place for self-control and will power, early on. I used internet pornography, say - what an unthinkable example, but let's use it! ;) To rid myself of this, I could allow panna to gradually show me the disadvantages of such akusala. That could take a long time. Would take a long time. Or I could cling to a self-image of a man who has taken great steps to clean himself of pronography. Take encouragement from this self-image, though it is a self-image, and wrong view. It could be effective dealing with a crude - just about as crude as they come - defilement like pornography. There are suttas that use self-images in this way to encourage monks. Somewhere in AN there is a sutta that compares monks resisting the attractions of women to warriors, and the commentary I read said that this sort of heroic imagery helped them to overcome the temptations. This use of self-imagery in similes. So if I have a self-image of being virtuous in overcoming a very unwholesome habit, it seems similar to the warrior monks resisting babes in that AN sutta. (I trust you know the one I'm referring to - if not, I could try to track it down.) So I think this could help at the level of crude defilements that have an expression in very outstandingly bad behaviour. But it wouldn't do any good for subtler defilements, such as joining in on salcoius talk with co-workers, or even subtler ones than that, all the salacious thoughts that pop up beyond my control. Would resorting to self-image in an aware way with respect to crude defilements deepen self-view and make it more likely to interfere in a insiduous way in other subtler areas? I can't say. And I don't even know for sure if I still resort to this sort of thing. I think I don't these days. It could be that coming across Abhidhamma has liberated me from that. Or it could be something I'll do again. I guess it's still that idea of employing self to do the work that will lead to self losing its job, as I posted some months ago. This is the sort of thing I'm sure to understand much more clearly in a few years time, so no need to continue discussing it now, unless you'd really like to. > > Phil, back to your post #36465. I disagree with the comments which suggest > there cannot be 'even the smallest steps' in the development of wisdom > whilst 'very crude defilements' are still apparent. Yes, you're right. this was wrong. > > When you say 'we have to clean out the gross matter first' and that you > think 'practices that might seem self-driven on the surface can do that' > (such as the fabric-softening ones), I think this is an example of looking > for one of those loop-holes or a lack of confidence in the real power of > panna and sati to perform their tasks. Or maybe impatience, knowing how gradual panna is. "Lack of confidence in the real power of panna and sati to perform their tasks." That's a good line, Sarah, I like that. It's back to the idea of a 'self' > doing a clean-up first, ready for some anatta understanding when the place > has been tidied up, isn't it? We follow our own ways, whether > fabric-softening ones or any other kinds, but we need to remember that any > of these ways are conditioned and anatta. Even when we think 'we have to > clean out....first', it's conditioned thinking that thinks like this > which can be known when it arises. Good reminder. Thanks. That last sentence. > > As you found, we can learn good lessons from shocking displays of kilesa > at work and it's helpful to be reminded again of what beginners we are. > It's panna with accompanying sobhana cetasikas like hiri and ottappa that > will know these states for what they are when they appear. Yes. Hiri and ottapa. That's what they're there for. I've been meaning to ask Rob M about the way he described ottappa in his wholesome states post. (It's great. One of those things I like to stick on a wall somewhere to see quite often.) He describes ottapa related to respect for others (bhikkhu Bodhi describeds it that way as welll) and he refers to the golden rule. I have a little bit harsher understanding of it as being a fear of getting burned by the kamma of one's deeds. That understanding probably comes from the description I read somewhere in a commentary - I can't remember where - of hiri being the thing that stops us from grabbing the excrement covered end of a pole and ottapa being the thing that stops us from grabbing the red hot end. Truly, Phil, I > certainly speak for myself here as well when it comes to experience of > seeing lots of rot under the mildest of provocations. However, I also have > a lot of confidence that the house only begins to really come clean with > the development of vipassana. Just one moment of wisdom (at even a > beginning level) is like a clean sweep. Anything else is a temporary, > surface spot-clean in comparison. Nice. Another good line! "Just one moment of wisdom is like a clean sweep." Nina often mentions in her books about the way we want big results and fail to appreciate the value of one moment of mindfulness. Thanks for your thoughtful comments and all your support, Sarah. Metta, Phil 36799 From: plnao Date: Thu Sep 23, 2004 7:45am Subject: Deeds of Merit - quality of gift effects result for the giver! Hello all More from "Deeds of Merit" by Sujin Boriharnwanaket, available at http://www.zolag.co.uk/meri1.html S. : In the case of someone who gives something which is less valuable or less beautiful than what he possesses or uses himself, there is generosity of a slave (dasa daana). The person who gives is a slave of attachment. He is not yet able to give things away which are just as good as or more excellent than the things he has himself.... he still clings to his possessions. When he receives the result of his deed by way of the experience of an object through eyes, ears, nose, tongue or body [3, this result will be inferior, because kamma produces its appropriate result . The giving away of things which are equal to or of the same value as one has oneself or uses oneself is generosity as a friend (sahaaya daana). When such a person receives the result of his deed by way of the experience of an object through eyes, ears, nose, tongue or body, this result will be fairly good but not extraordinary good, in accordance with that kamma. Giving things which are more excellent than those one has or uses himself is generosity of a master (daana pati). The person who gives is a master in giving, not a slave of clinging to possessions. If someone is still a slave of clinging, of attachment to things which are good, which are of excellent quality, he will not be able to give. The result of giving excellent things is the acquiring of excellent things or the experience of objects through the senses which are extraordinarily good. Such result is in accordance with kamma, the cause. (end quote - for sake of space, i had to remove some interesting comments by ms. wandhana. my apologies.) metta, phil