38200 From: abhidhammika Date: Fri Nov 12, 2004 6:35am Subject: Re: Buddhaghosa Never Created Theravada. To Nina Dear Nina, Sarah, Robert K, Mike Nease and all How are you? Here is a quick translation of the four lines from the Preface Verse of A.t.thasaalinii, as Nina requested. As the translation was made as literal as possible, I hope that you can survive its rather raw sounding. Nikaayantaraladdhiihi, asammissam anaakulam; mahaavihaaravaasiinam, diipayanto vinicchayam. Attham pakaasayissaami, aagama.t.thakathaasupi; gahetabbam gahetvaana, tosayanto vicakkha.ne. From Acariya Buddhaghosa's A.t.thasaalinii Ganthaarambhakathaa. "I will expose the meaning, satisfying the intelligent By presenting the findings of the Great Temple Residents, Which are not contaminated by alien doctrines, Nor incoherent, and by taking whatever should be taken in the Suttam Commentaries as well." The reason I produced the above lines of Buddhaghosa is to show that he did not create any new system. He clearly declared that he reproduced the findings of the Great Temple Residents and whatever available in the Suttam Commentaries. Whoever accused Acariya Buddhaghosa of creating a system of Theravada Buddhism did so without having read and understood the Great Acariya's own humble declaration typical of all Theravada Buddhist masters. The Saasana obligations of the Theravada ascetics are preservation and transmission of the original teachings of the Buddha and the Arahants. Theravada ascetics never set up their own brand of Buddhism the way Nargaajuna and the like did. Theravada ascetics always adopt the roles of humble selfless nameless preservers and transmitters of the Teachings of the Arahants. Theravada means the Teachings of the Arahants. Except Gotama the First Arahant and the Subsequent Arahants, no one else can create Theravada. This is because only Gotama the First Arahant and the Subsequent Arahants can teach the Teachings of the Arahants. The Taming System of Gotama the Buddha (Buddha Saasanaa) and the Teachings of the Arahants, namely, Theravada, are the two expressions that mean one and the same thing and are interchangeable. With regards, Suan www.bodhiology.org --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: Dear Suan, Please, could you translate this? Nina op 11-11-2004 14:31 schreef abhidhammika op suanluzaw@b...: > > Nikaayantaraladdhiihi, asammissam anaakulam; > > mahaavihaaravaasiinam, diipayanto vinicchayam. > > Attham pakaasayissaami, aagama.t.thakathaasupi; > > gahetabbam gahetvaana, tosayanto vicakkha.ne. 38201 From: htootintnaing Date: Fri Nov 12, 2004 6:37am Subject: There is a Practice (Re: [dsg] Re: New to Group) Dear Howard, Sarah and All, Here is another member like Howard who will be watching the conversation between Bhante Vimalaramsi and Sarah with great interest. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Bhante and Sarah - > > In a message dated 11/12/04 3:22:20 AM Eastern Standard Time, > sarahprocterabbott@y... writes: > > > S: I can see there will be plenty of scope for discussion here…..I look > > forward to your participation. > > > ====================== > Sarah, I am watching with interest the conversation between Ven > Vimalaramsi and you. I greatly look forward to a continuation, as I hope to learn > much from it. > > With metta, > Howard 38202 From: Dan D. Date: Fri Nov 12, 2004 6:48am Subject: [dsg] Re: Sarah: "One path" Dear Sarah, My time is running short, so I'll just pop off a few more comments for now... > > If there is conceptual understanding about, say, namarupapariccheda > > with no direct understanding on which to base it, how is that > > anything other than speculation? > .... > S: It may well be pure speculation of little or no benefit at all. Not just "may well be". How can it be anything BUT speculation? > We can question our motives for wishing to find out about higher stages of > insight or enlightenment at all. Huh? Peculiar comment... > However, when there is firmer and firmer direct understanding of namas and > rupas appearing at this moment, I think there is more and more confidence > in what we read in the texts as being true, even aspects not directly > understood in anyway. Hmmm... I'll have to think about how that relates to the question. > As to when it is wholesome(kusala) right conceptual or direct > understanding and when it is unwholesome (akusala)speculation, regardless > of whether the facts are right or wrong, This is a quite a different usage of the terms kusala/akusala than I normally see -- at least I hope it is! only panna can tell by being > aware of the realities whilst thinking or speculating. Lobha is real, > thinking is real, ditthi is real, metta is real etc. We may find someone a > reference or respond to a question with metta, even though the subject > matter is purely conceptual and not based on direct experience. This > doesn't make it wrong as you suggest. It always comes back to the cittas > and of course these change all the time. > > In the suttas, there are occasions in which people attain stream- > > entry on first hearing the Buddha. How did they go from having > > absolutely no insight and not even conceptual right view (being > > outside the dispensation) to having very deep levels of insight in an > > instant? Doesn't there have to be some time for development? > .... > S: It depends. Citta processes are very fast and those like Sariputta who > had listened to countless previous Buddhas and had performed deeds of such > merit that he was born in the Buddha's lifetime and place etc, was able to > penetrate the truths and develop insights as he first listened to become a > sotapanna. (Btw, I wouldn't say there had been no conceptual right view of > any kind of course, but the key ingredients were missing). Not implausible, but I'd have to take it on either gross speculation or blind faith or (more likely) some combination of the two. > But how many Sariputtas were there... Very few. > and how many listeners who didn't attain even to the first insight when they first heard the Buddha? Very many. > And who are we today to think we may hear (or not even hear) a few words > from the teachings and reach higher stages of insight? Huh? Metta, Dan 38203 From: htootintnaing Date: Fri Nov 12, 2004 7:04am Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 120 ) Dear Dhamma Friends, Pannatti can serves as an arammana or object and it is one of the sixth sense. It is dhammarammana. Panatti is sensed only by mind. No other sense organs can detect pannatti dhamma. Pannatti is known and sensed only by citta which is nama dhamma. Pannatti is a domain that most people or nearly all people and all beings confuse. Even people who are well-learned in Dhamma still have some confusion on pannatti dhamma. Pannatti is a dhamma. It can be sensed. It can be known. But when dhammas are viewed by ultimate sense, pannatti dhamma is not an ultimate reality. Pannatti never arises. Because it never exists as paramattha dhamma. It never exists as an ultimate reality. As pannatti does not arise as it is not a reality, then it does not fall away. There have been a lot of argument on pannatti dhamma because of inability to penetrate the dhamma pannatti. Pannatti does not arise and does not fall away. Some people say pannatti arise and fall away. They argue that pannatti as arammana does arise and fall away. This is wrong. Pannatti never arises and never falls away as it does not exist in ultimate sense. It is not an ultimate truth. It is not an ultimate reality. They may argue why pannatti as an arammana arises and falls away. This is a wrong concept. What actually arises is citta and not pannatti. What actually falls away is citta and not pannatti. Pannatti does not arise and does not fall away. I do repeat these because it is important. When a citta who takes pannatti arises, it falls away immediately. According to functions of cittas, next arising cittas do their functions. Cittas do arise and falls away while pannatti cannot. Example: When we think 'a tree', there is no tree as an ultimate reality. But a citta arises taking pannatti 'a tree'. As that citta is anicca and impermanent, it falls away. Here, it seems like pannatti arises and falls away which actually is not. Just before that 'idea of a tree' arises, there may be many cittas that took realties as their objects. We may think on 'colour' 'form' 'size' in our mind before a citta that takes pannatti 'a tree' arises. In real terms, pannatti does not arise and does not fall away. Pannatti serves as an object for mind. In this matter of arammana or object condition, pannatti dhamma takes the role of paramattha dhamma by pretending as if it is a paramattha dhamma which actually is not so. That is why pannatti dhamma is not a dhammaayatana. And by the same reason, pannatti is not dhammadhatu. As pannati does not arise and does not fall away, there is no evidence of anicca or dukkha or anatta in pannatti dhamma. This is because pannatti dhamma does not exist as an ultimate reality from the start. There are higher cittas that do take pannatti dhamma as their objects. These cittas are all of rupavacara cittas. Some kamavacara cittas take pannatti dhamma as their objects. Some arupavacara cittas do take pannatti dhamma as their object. But what is sure is that all 8 lokuttara cittas never take pannatti dhamma as their object. The arammana of all lokuttara cittas is only nibbana which is an ultimate reality. All lokuttara cittas take just nibbana as their object. No other object can be the object of lokuttara cittas. Only nibbana can serve as arammana or object of sotapatti magga citta and phala citta, sakadagami magga and phala citta, anagami magga and phala citta, and arahatta magga and phala citta. All rupavacara cittas that is all 5 rupakusala cittas (which are 1st jhana, 2nd jhana, 3rd jhana, 4th jhana, and 5th jhana), all 5 rupavipaka cittas (which are the resultant cittas of the former 5 cittas), and all 5 rupakiriya cittas (which are 1st jhana, 2nd jhana, 3rd jhana, 4th jhana and 5th jhana cittas of arahats) take the pannatti dhamma as their object. Rupavacara cittas never take other object apart from pannatti dhamma as their arammana or object. I do write this becuase there are many who argue that suttas say samma-samadhi is all 8 jhanas that is 4 rupa jhanas and 4 arupa jhanas. I do not say suttas are wrong. Equally I do not say Abhidhamma is wrong. And I do not say suttas and Abhidhamma do not agree. There are those who purely learn Suttas and they devalue Abhidhamma and say Abhidhamma is not Buddha's words and so on. This show inability to penetrate Dhamma. I wouls say strongly that those who are in jhanas that is who are developing jhana cittas of rupavacara kind cannot see anicca, dukkha, anatta but they just see the object of rupavacara jhana cittas which is pannatti. No citta can take 2 object at the same moment at the same time. Rupavacara jhana cittas always always take pannatti dhamma as their object. So they cannot take nibbana as their object. In citta portion, I have discussed this matter. But as it is very important and crucial, I repeat it here again. If in jhanas, the practitioner has to emerge from jhana and has to do paccavakkhana or scrutinization or contemplation on dhammas he experienced. At that time he is not in jhanas and not at pannatti dhamma. But as he is still in the vicinity of jhana, there is no hindrances at all and he is not absorbed at that time and mind is free and not fixed. At that time all cittas are kusala cittas. But they are not rupavacara rupakusala cittas or arupavacara arupakusala cittas which are jhanas. So their kusala cittas are kamavacara mahakusala cittas. These nana sampayutta cittas do lead to nibbana through manodvaravajjana, parikamma, upcara, anuloma, gotrabhu and then ascend up to magga citta. If the practitioner is still in rupa jhanas then he is seeing rupa jhana object which is pannatti dhamma. Panatta dhamma is very important and without it we cannot communicate and we cannot understand Dhamma and we will suffer more and more if there is no pannatta dhamma. In my old post I said pannatta dhamma is like vehicle which carries understanding. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome and they will be valuable. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts. 38204 From: Dan D. Date: Fri Nov 12, 2004 7:16am Subject: [dsg] Re: Sarah: "One path" Dear Sukin, Just some quick comments... > It doesn't make sense to me that we would have had any insight into > anatta without first hearing about the Teachings. It is entirely possible for people to have enough insight into anatta to develop a strong sense of detachment to Self without ever having heard a whisper of Buddha's words. I think many of us have met such people. Also, we would all agree that it is possible to learn how to discuss "anatta" with great facility and demonstrate great command of Buddhist words and arguments but still be very attached to Self. Which has the deeper understanding? The one who has developed a high degree of detachment to Self, yet not studied the Buddha's words; or the one who has studied the Buddha's words extensively but is strongly attached to Self? Which is more important? Understanding reality, or understanding words? There is a striking distinction between them. As indicated above, > conditioned namas and rupas. You could ask your "selfless friends" who > have not heard the Buddha's teachings, what they thought about anatta. > I am quite certain that they would not readily accept it. And this would > indicate that indeed their experiences were *not* satipatthana. It would? Are you sure? It seems that you are confusing concept and reality here. Understanding reality is quite different from understanding what someone is referring to when they describe reality. > So elsewhere when you said that `sammaditthi arises with jhana', I > don't think this is right. Jhana practice does require deep wisdom, but > this wisdom is of quite a different kind to vipassana panna. The former > may support the latter, but does not lead to it. I believe it is just standard Theravada dogma that sammaditthi arises with jhana. If I'm wrong about this, that's fine. Metta, Dan 38205 From: Ken O Date: Fri Nov 12, 2004 8:58am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sarah: "One path" Hi RobK, Dan and Sarah RobK, yes you are right, I forgetten that selfless acts by other traditions can be a subtle clinging to self that wish to help others. Just like when we help other by donating food, materials etc, there could be a subtle clinging of a self wishing to help. Thanks for point that. My last email is wrong. Please ignore it. Dan - still the same point, only people who listen to dhamma can be liberated. Whether some people who can listen to a few words then be enlighted, that must be past accumulations, learn from previous encounter with Buddha dhamma. These accumulations enable them to see through the conceptual world, straight to the paramathas just like Ven Sariputta. Even those ascetics who could do that also must have accumulations from past encounters with the Buddha Dhammas. Whereas for me, hmmm, ... dont know how many aeons will pass :) who knows when we will meet again, internet chat again :) and discuss this again in aeons to come in the future. But still this is worth living for, the fortunate live of being able to learn Dhamma :). till then, have a little cup of coffee and enjoy the sun and the sea. As I said to someone before, learning dhamma is full of pitfalls but that what make it interesting :) Cheers! Ken O 38206 From: rjkjp1 Date: Fri Nov 12, 2004 9:40am Subject: [dsg] Re: Sarah: "One path" Dear Ken, I think that those of other traditions can perform (conventionally) selfless acts. But because only a Buddha can teach anatta they cannot develop penetrative insight into the four noble truths and paticcasamuppada. I think they can develop most types of right view too- related to kamma . But they can't develop vipassana. Robertk In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O wrote: > Hi RobK, Dan and Sarah > > RobK, yes you are right, I forgetten that selfless acts by other > traditions can be a subtle clinging to self that wish to help others. > Just like when we help other by donating food, materials etc, there > could be a subtle clinging of a self wishing to help. Thanks for > point that. My last email is wrong. Please ignore it. > > Dan - still the same point, only people who listen to dhamma can be > 38207 From: Ken O Date: Fri Nov 12, 2004 10:57am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sarah: "One path" Hi RobK and (Dan) That is what I told Dan in an earlier mail where other traditions do practise a limited right view because of not knowing Anatta which only can be taught by the Buddha dhamma. They could know impermanence and dukkha which are visible but they would not know about Anatta which is the basic for panna, or for cessation of birth. Ken O 38208 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Nov 12, 2004 11:15am Subject: Vis. XIV, 112, 113 Vis. XIV, 112, 113 Text Vis. 112. When, through the influence of the profitable of the fine-material sphere (9)-(13) and the immaterial sphere (14)-(17), beings are reborn [respectively] in the fine-material and immaterial kinds of becoming, then the nine kinds of fine-material (57)-(61) and immaterial (62)-(65) resultant occur as 'rebirth-linking'; and they do so making their object only the sign of kamma that has appeared at the time of dying.[43] ------------------------ Note 43. ' "The sign of kamma" here is only the kamma's own object consisting of an earth kasina, etc.' (Pm.478). N: When ruupajhaana or aruupajhaana has been developed and the jhaana has not declined, kamma conditions the last javana-cittas which have as object the meditation subject of ruupa-jhaana or aruupa-jhaana, and it will produce rebirth in ruupa-brahma planes or aruupa-brahma-planes, depending on the stage of jhaana which has been attained. Vis. text: 113: When, through the influence of the unprofitable (22)-(33), they are reborn in a state of loss, then the one kind of unprofitable resultant mind-consciousness-element without root-cause (56) occurs as rebirth-linking; and it does so making its object whichever among the kamma, sign of kamma, and sign of destiny has appeared at the time of dying. N: There is only one type of akusala vipaakacitta that performs the function of rebirth, bhavanga and dying and this is the santiira.na-citta that is akusala vipaakacitta. This type has many degrees and arises in the unhappy planes of existence: the animal world, the ghost world, the demon world and the hell planes. Vis. text: This firstly is how the occurrence of nineteen kinds of resultant consciousness should be understood as rebirth-linking. N: these types are: 1 akusala vipaaka santiira.na-citta (ahetuka, result of akusala kamma) 1 kusala vipaaka santiira.na-citta (ahetuka, result of weak kaamaavacara kusala kamma) 8 mahaa-vipaakacittas (sahetuka, results of kaamaavacara kusala kammas) 5 ruupaavacara vipaakacittas (sahetuka, results of ruupa-jhaanacittas) 4 aruupaavacara vipaakacittas (sahetuka, results of aruupa-jhaanacittas) Thus, nineteen types of citta can perform the function of rebirth, bhavanga (life-continuum) and dying. ***** Nina. 38209 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Nov 12, 2004 11:15am Subject: Re: There is a Practice (Re: [dsg] Re: New to Group) Venerable Bhante, welcome to the list, thank you for writing. You give us food for thought. I shall just touch on a few points. op 11-11-2004 17:09 schreef Bhante Vimalaramsi op bhantevimalaramsi@j...: > Enough of this, I see the word "insight" used very often and wonder what > meaning it has for you. "Insight" into what? I know the answer that you > will give and that is "insight" into the true nature of all existence. > But what does that really mean according to the suttas? To me the > "insight" that arises from truly seeing and understanding the impersonal > process of dependent origination, is the "insight" we should be looking > at. Not some surface "insight" into nama/rupa alone. N: Insight or understanding according to the suttas: the Buddha speaks about all realities we can experience one at a time through the six doors. He speaks about seeing, hearing, attachment, anger. These dhammas are so daily, and we can only thoroughly penetrate their true characteristics by mindfulness when they occur at this moment. So, we should ask ourselves: what does pañña understand at this moment? Does it understand what seeing is, what hearing is? It is after seeing, hearing or the other sense-cognitions that defilements arise on account of what we experience. We should realize all such moments as conditioned dhammas. I share your concern as to book knowledge. When people see Abhidhamma as mere theory the study will not be beneficial, it can even be dangerous. One gets the wrong grasp of the snake and it bites. Abhidhamma is about life, it is not theory. I am most grateful to Acharn Sujin who helped me to see this 37 years ago. We truly have to consider what we read and make it relevant to our life. I am so glad we make on this list a study of the Visuddhimagga, and with each paragraph I consider its contents in relation to my life. It is a kind of meditation. It makes me always very happy to read a commentary to a sutta, and it helps me to come closer to the Buddha's words. I like to know how to apply his exhortation: to perform kusala, avoid evil and purify the mind. At the same time I also realize that what is beneficial to one person may not be so to another person. We are born with different accumulated tendencies. You give us many points for reflection, thank you. I appreciate it that you took the time to write to us. With respect, Nina. 38210 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Nov 12, 2004 11:15am Subject: Re: Red hat revisited ( was Re: [dsg] Re: There is a Practice) Hello Phil, op 11-11-2004 23:43 schreef plnao op plnao@j...: > Phil: (snip, snip)...when I saw a man's red cap, and I had insight into how quickly the mind > leaps ahead to > process the visual object and colour and make it into a "cap." And I sensed > at that > moment that I might never be able to answer "yes" to "is there seeing now?" > but at least > I had gained a kind of clear insight into how fast the mind leaps to form > concepts. > So even being able to answser "no" to that question is liberating, I think. > We have gained > insight into how fast processes are, how there is no self that can control > them. N: That moment was conditioned by previous listening, hearing, study, considering, thus it is nama, not Phil. Before we realize it we take experiences for self. We know that there were also moments of seeing, because if you were blind you would not know about the red cap. Thus, we are sure that there is seeing, but no awareness and understanding of its characteristic. But all this is a memory now, and as Kh. Sujin says: what about this moment? We heard that all the time as a reminder in the situation. And also: if we try to know what seeing is, it hinders sati. When it arises, it does so unexpectantly. We know that there must be seeing also now, not only when there was a man with a red cap. It is amazing that sañña from early childhood on is accumulated, so that we know at once: this is a red cap, this is the beach, etc. Khun Unnop reminded me: we are keeping on talking and asking questions about what does not appear and when it appears we are not aware. Nina. 38211 From: Dan D. Date: Fri Nov 12, 2004 11:58am Subject: Re: Oh Madam! -- kickbacks as "overtime pay" Dear Christine, I bet if you had offered to pay the concierge a little extra to show up early, he would have promptly put on the cashier's hat for you. Metta, Dan 38212 From: buddhatrue Date: Fri Nov 12, 2004 1:51pm Subject: There is a Practice (Re: [dsg] Re: New to Group) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, James (and Bhante) - > > In a message dated 11/12/04 4:01:20 AM Eastern Standard Time, > buddhatrue@y... writes: > > > I also agree with your definition of anatta. Anatta does mean > > impersonal (or uncontrollable) not, as many in this group > > believe, `doesn't exist'. > > > ======================= > I think that what you say here is slightly misleading. There *are* a > number of folks here, including me, who believe that conventional existents > such as trees, houses, and people have, indeed, only conventional existence, > which means, not that such percepts are without basis, but that they are mental > constructs, and have no existence independent of such construction (and of the > phenomena that are their basis). But the term 'anatta' doesn't literally or > directly apply to them to them, as I see it. It applies only derivatively, and > "in a manner of speaking" - that is, again, conventionally. The phenomena to > which 'anatta' directly applies are the interrelated physical and mental dhammas > that are the basis for conventional existents, that underly them - phenomena > directly apprehended through the six sense doors, unmediated by conceptual > construction. It is these that, while not being nihilistically nonexistent, do > lack SELF-existence. They do lack atta. It is these that truly arise, but are > fleeting, dependent, inseparable (but distinguishable) aspects of the phenomenal > flow. > > With metta, > Howard Friend Howard (Rob M., at the end), As close as I can figure, you agree with what I stated. You wrote, "It is these that, while not being nihilistically nonexistent, do lack SELF-existence. They do lack atta. It is these that truly arise, but are fleeting, dependent, inseparable (but distinguishable) aspects of the phenomenal flow." Sometimes I feel as if one needs a PhD to decipher your posts (and, alas, I only have a masters ;-), but I think that you are agreeing with what I wrote. Let's deal with just people since the Buddha didn't talk extensively about philosophical subjects like the existence of trees and houses. The Buddha examined himself and saw that he couldn't find an atta (a self). What he found is that the "human being Gotama" was a composition of form (physical body), feeling, perception, thought, and consciousness. He further found that none of these five aggregates, constantly changing, should be taken for self because then there will be clinging to them and suffering. At no point did he say, "I, The Fully Enlightened One don't exist. Only the Five Aggregates exist. Only Nama/Rupa exists." The Buddha did exist, and so do you and I. We exist as an ever changing process, but we still exist. This is important to understand or the whole teaching of anatta becomes muddled with ontological suppositions. Hope I have made myself a bit clearer. Metta, James Ps. Rob M, if you are reading, I am still working on the talks. Just taking a little break to freshen the mind ;-). Building inspiration… 38213 From: plnao Date: Fri Nov 12, 2004 2:49pm Subject: Re: Red hat revisited ( was Re: [dsg] Re: There is a Practice) Hello Nina, and all Nina: That moment was conditioned by previous listening, hearing, study, considering, thus it is nama, not Phil. Before we realize it we take experiences for self. (snip) Khun Unnop reminded me: we are keeping on talking and asking questions about what does not appear and when it appears we are not aware. Phil: Perhaps in these two points we see that we have to find a middle way between studying and discussing too much and not enough. How often does awareness of the moment arise while I'm typing messages or reading a sutta, or even reflecting on a sutta later? Hardly ever. But there is faith that Dhamma discussion and study will condition right understanding that will see through the clinging that is also conditioned by Dhamma discussion and study. But we have to be careful. If I'm honest with myself, if I was given a choice between liberation from samsara and a day off with lots of suttas to read and a pot of herbal tea and quiet in the house and sunshine filling the room I would probably choose the latter! Metta, Phil 38214 From: Bhante Vimalaramsi Date: Fri Nov 12, 2004 9:58am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sarah: "One path" Dhamma Greetings Joop, The problem with most of the understanding about "concentration" is a tricky one. I will try to clear this up as best as I can. Because I have been practicing meditation for such a long period of time I have had the opportunity to try many different types of meditation intensely. I did practice the Mahasi Method of Satipatthana for 20 years ( and was very successful, according to their standards) , and with that teaching I found an inherent prejudice against one-pointed concentration because "It only leads to jhana, but you can't attain nibbana unless you practice vipassana", I truly believed this statement without checking out the suttas at all. After I became disenchanted with this kind of teaching, I began to read the suttas and found some interesting things. First, the word "vipassana", is only used about 100 times in the suttas and the explanation of jhana is used many thousands of times. I found this to be very interesting. Why would the Buddha talk so much about something that , as I was told repeatedly, would not lead to Nibbana. It didn't make sense to me. As I looked deeper, then had an elder senior monk tell me to let go of the commentaries (like the Visuddhi Magga) and just read the suttas with a beginner's mind. I began to see things that were not so easy to see, when I did use the commentaries. I first began deeply reading about 'Mindfulness of Breathing", which turned into a real eye-opener. I was told repeatedly by top Vipassana teachers that if you practiced Anapanasati the way it taught in sutta #118 of the Majjhima Nikaya that I would only be practicing absorption, which "only" led to psychic powers and that was a real hindrance to vipassana, and if I practiced the Satipatthana method, it would lead me to vipassana and eventually nibbana. To my surprise, when I compared the two suttas side by side I found out that the instructions were word for word, letter for letter, exactly the same! I found this to be an odd thing because I was raised on the vipassana only method. And as I was told vipassana was one thing and concentration was another (as it says in the Visuddhi Magga) and never the two shall meet!. But the instructions were the same, how could this be? So I took a long hard look at what I was taught and the method I was taught and compared it with the instructions given in both the Anapanasati Sutta and the Mahasatipatthana Sutta. Low and behold, they weren't the same!!!!! So I let go of the Mahasi method of meditation and began to try the sutta method. I found that the instructions in the suttas were much less complicated and when followed they opened up my eyes to deeply see things that I had only surface seen before. Now you must realize I was considered a VERY ADVANCED meditation practitioner, I had seen directly all of the insights that were talked about in Mahasi's book the "Progress of Insight". I saw that many of the insights were still surface and not as deep and penetrating as I was led to believe. One of the main differences was one sentence given in the instructions for the "Mindfulness of Breathing" (which by the way is ignored in the Visuddhi Magga) it says, "He trains thus: 'I shall breathe in, tranquilizing the bodily formation'; He trains thus: 'I shall breathe out tranquilizing the bodily formation". So I applied this tranquilizing with everything (that is not only while sitting in meditation, but when doing daily activities as well) and soon found a real difference in the way I saw how mind moved and worked. That was a real eye opener! Or as I have come to realize it a real "Oh, Wow" experience. As I began to practice this more and more I saw that I needed to take a couple of weeks and do a self retreat. This became so interesting that my 2 week retreat turned into a 3 month retreat. (Monks can do that sort of thing because this is our job and freedom of being a monk) I saw that there is a true difference between one-pointed absorption meditation (Jhana) and the what I call the "Tranquil Wisdom" (Jhana) meditation. After that retreat I began really studying the suttas and came to see the true interconnectedness of the Buddha's teachings. My respect and love for the Buddha and what he did became unshakable and real. Anyway, as I had done some absorption before, I could see directly the differences between these two different practices. And that difference was the relaxing of the bodily formation often. If mind became distracted I let go of that distraction (any thing other than the meditation object - either metta or breathing) relax the tension caused by that disturbance and softly redirected mind back to the meditation object and relaxed on the in-breath, and relaxed on the out breath ,(as it says to do in the instructions). With one-pointed absorption concentration we were told to know when there was a distraction, let it go, then immediately come back to the meditation object. I came to realize, when comparing these two methods that when practicing the absorption method, I was bringing back a tension in both my mind and body and basically ignored it (because I wasn't told to relax) and this led to a very deep state of absorption where the hindrances were suppressed by the force of the concentration, and mind became "glued" to the meditation object, the body disappeared and only the meditation object (as described in the Visuddhi Magga) in all of its varies forms was present. But, when practicing that one extra step of relaxing, the entire meditation took on a different way of observation. Sometimes when I was practicing the Mahasi Method I fought real hard against having the hindrances arise. And I was told that when one got into access concentration the concentration would momentarily suppress them. But when I was practicing the tranquility method I began to see clearly that the hindrances were where my attachments were. So I treated them in the same way as a wandering thought. I Just noticed that mind was not on the meditation object let go of the distraction (hindrance) relaxed and softly redirected mind back to the object of meditation. By doing this I began to see clearly "HOW" mind became distracted and I began to see the process of dependent origination and how it really works in everything that arose. So I found out that the hindrances were not near as big a problem as before and my meditation began to naturally go deep but this time with a deeper kind of understanding and seeing the process of dependent origination became very clear. All of this kind of understanding occurs when the meditator is in jhana! And this is in agreement with the Anupada Sutta #111 in the Majjhima Nikaya. This sutta is Venerable Sariputta's experience of meditation as described by the Buddha himself. So you can see, the way I now teach has the 4 Foundations of mindfulness while the meditator is in each of the jhanas. All the way to nibbana. I also found out something interesting when I looked up the word "Samadhi" in Mr. Rhys-Davies Pali-English dictionary. The word "Samadhi" was never used before the time of the Buddha, actually the Buddha made this word up to describe a different type of concentration (than the current at that time absorption concentration). The actual definition of this word is "The super tranquilized mind that leads to jhana". This includes a very still composed mind that is very alert to whatever arises in the present moment. I hope this long description is helpful to you. If you want more info about how to practice Loving-Kindness Meditation please go to our website at www.dhammasukha.org and browse around there. I have written a booklet called "The Barebones of Loving-kindness Meditation" We have this instruction read out loud so you can listen to it or you can download and print it out for yourself. Maha-Metta always Bhante Vimalaramsi 38215 From: Bhante Vimalaramsi Date: Fri Nov 12, 2004 10:30am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sarah: "One path" Dhamma Greetings Robert, A quick question to contemplate. How do Pacceka Budhas become enlightened when they live outside of the Buddha eras? Maha-Metta always, Bhante Vimalaramsi 38216 From: Bhante Vimalaramsi Date: Fri Nov 12, 2004 6:30am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sarah: "One path" Dhamma Greetings Phil, You may find it helpful to go to my website at www.dhammasukha.org I have some talks there that you may find helpful especially the titled Metta in daily life. I have also written out the instructions for metta in a small booklet called "The Barebones of Loving-kindness". There is also the instructions for "Mindfulness of Breathing" in another booklet. Please feel free to download these if you find them useful. I have also have a two part post about how to handle the hindrances when they arise that you may find helpful it is called The hindrances up close and personal. As I teach metta in a different way than most teachers in this country you may find that it is interesting how the 4 foundations are a major part of this practice. I have found over the years that there are actually two different types of jhana. One type leads to deep absorption and extreme one-pointedness and that was most people practice. The other type, the meditator doesn't get as deeply absorbed and has a fluid kind of awareness that seems to agree with the suttas. I teach the latter type with good results and the meditators can see each one of the foundations of mindfulness arise while they are in the jhana. So I have coined this type of meditation "Tranquil Wisdom" but it could as easily be called "Samatha/Vipassana". As says in sutta #149 of the Majjhima Nikaya samatha and vipassana are conjoined not disjoined and are to be practiced together. As you said "This is still my highest goal as a human being - to become more loving, more compassionate, more joyful, more equanimitous and free from knee-jerk reactions." May you be truly successful and with that kind of intention, may you attain nibbana quickly and easily in this very life! Maha-Metta always Bhante Vimalaramsi 38217 From: Date: Fri Nov 12, 2004 10:22am Subject: Re: There is a Practice (Re: [dsg] Re: New to Group) Hi, James - In a message dated 11/12/04 4:57:09 PM Eastern Standard Time, buddhatrue@y... writes: > I think that what you say here is slightly misleading. > There *are* a > >number of folks here, including me, who believe that conventional > existents > >such as trees, houses, and people have, indeed, only conventional > existence, > >which means, not that such percepts are without basis, but that > they are mental > >constructs, and have no existence independent of such construction > (and of the > >phenomena that are their basis). But the term 'anatta' doesn't > literally or > >directly apply to them to them, as I see it. It applies only > derivatively, and > >"in a manner of speaking" - that is, again, conventionally. The > phenomena to > >which 'anatta' directly applies are the interrelated physical and > mental dhammas > >that are the basis for conventional existents, that underly them - > phenomena > >directly apprehended through the six sense doors, unmediated by > conceptual > >construction. It is these that, while not being nihilistically > nonexistent, do > >lack SELF-existence. They do lack atta. It is these that truly > arise, but are > >fleeting, dependent, inseparable (but distinguishable) aspects of > the phenomenal > >flow. > > > >With metta, > >Howard > > Friend Howard (Rob M., at the end), > > As close as I can figure, you agree with what I stated. > --------------------------------------------- Howard: I don't think that I do, at least not as you formulated it. However, if you agree with what I wrote above, then we are sufficiently close not to worry much about the formulational differences. ;-) ------------------------------------------ You > wrote, "It is these that, while not being nihilistically > nonexistent, do lack SELF-existence. They do lack atta. It is these > that truly arise, but are fleeting, dependent, inseparable (but > distinguishable) aspects of the phenomenal flow." Sometimes I feel > as if one needs a PhD to decipher your posts (and, alas, I only have > a masters ;-), but I think that you are agreeing with what I wrote. > ------------------------------------------ Howard: Geez! And here I thought I was being both succinct and clear! I don't *think* I was quite agreeing with what you wrote, but I definitely do agree with what *I* wrote! ;-)) ------------------------------------------ > > Let's deal with just people since the Buddha didn't talk extensively > about philosophical subjects like the existence of trees and > houses. The Buddha examined himself and saw that he couldn't find > an atta (a self). What he found is that the "human being Gotama" > was a composition of form (physical body), feeling, perception, > thought, and consciousness. He further found that none of these > five aggregates, constantly changing, should be taken for self > because then there will be clinging to them and suffering. At no > point did he say, "I, The Fully Enlightened One don't exist. Only > the Five Aggregates exist. Only Nama/Rupa exists." The Buddha did > exist, and so do you and I. > ------------------------------------------ Howard: In a manner of speaking, certainly. The Buddha existed, and you and I exist, conventionally. We exist not as separable, unitary, graspable entities, but in dependence on a multiplicity of underlying dhammas and also in dependence on mental fabrication - on conceptualization. ------------------------------------------ We exist as an ever changing process, > > but we still exist. ---------------------------------------- Howard: I know exactly what you mean, but I just wouldn't put it this way. I don't think it *should* be put that way except with the understanding that this is just a manner of speaking, without there actually being any separable, definable "we" who are these processes. We're not far apart on this, James. I think we differ on emphasis and formulation. ----------------------------------------- This is important to understand or the whole > > teaching of anatta becomes muddled with ontological suppositions. > Hope I have made myself a bit clearer. ----------------------------------------- Howard: I think that anatta *is* a matter of ontology, an extraordinarily subtle ontology, and very deep - as deep as dependent origination, which is the other side of the very same coin. ----------------------------------------- > > Metta, James > Ps. Rob M, if you are reading, I am still working on the talks. > Just taking a little break to freshen the mind ;-). Building > inspiration… > > ======================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 38218 From: Date: Fri Nov 12, 2004 4:34pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vis. XIV, 112, 113 Hi Nina, I'm a little skeptical that rebirth linking and dying consciousnesses actually do anything. They just seem to be the first and last bhavanga consciousness. The real rebirth linking and dying consciousness seems to me is the last javana consciousnesses. Larry 38219 From: Bhante Vimalaramsi Date: Fri Nov 12, 2004 6:22pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Sarah: "One path" Dhamma Greetings Joop, I wrote a long email and have just realized that I didn't answer all of your questions. So I'm writing this to complete this answer. I use the Middle Length Discourses (Majjhima Nikaya) more than the Longer Discourses (Digha Nikaya). The Satipatthana Sutta is sutta #10. The section #32 on "Contemplation on Feeling" says: When feeling a worldly pleasant feeling, he understands: 'I feel a pleasant worldly feeling'; when feeling an unworldly pleasant feeling. he understands: 'I feel an unworldly pleasant feeling'. Lets stop here and take a look at what that means. A worldly pleasant feeling is a sensual feeling of the five sense doors i.e. the eyes, ears, tongue, nose and body. Any sense feeling that is felt with the body is a worldly pleasant feeling. Also, obtaining a happy feeling when one gets want they want i.e. a new car for example. Now the unworldly pleasant feeling is attaining one of the four jhanas. Also, in the first part of this sutta it talks mostly about meditations where jhanas are experienced, the 32 parts of the body and the charnel grounds meditations. The 4 elements meditation is a part of the jhana meditations too. Now getting back to the sutta: "when feeling a painful worldly feeling, he understands: 'I feel a painful worldly feeling'; when feeling an unworldly painful feeling, he understands: 'I feel a painful unworldly feeling'. Lets stop here again. What is a worldly painful feeling? It is a painful feeling that arises at the sense doors and is unpleasant or it is not obtaining ones desires when it is wanted. What is the unworldly painful feeling? This is the spiritual longing for nibbana. Now let us go to the "Contemplation of Mind" it says: "He understands contracted mind as contracted mind, and distracted mind as distracted mind". A contracted mind is one that has sloth and torpor in it. A distracted mind is a mind that has restlessness in it. "He understands an exalted mind, as exalted mind and an unexalted mind as unexalted" - an exalted mind is the that has a rupa jhana in it and an unexalted mind is a mind that does not have the experience of jhana in it. - "He understands a surpassed mind, as a surpassed mind" -this is a mind that has the experience of one of the arupa jhana in it and an unsurpassed mind does not have the experience of the arupa jhana in it. So as you can see the Satipatthana Sutta has many references of jhana in it. To my way of thinking, after so much study of the suttas and practice of direct experience of meditation taught from the suttas, the different meditations described in the suttas all lead to the final goal of nibbana. And doing the Brahma Viharas helps one to soften their personality and helps mind become very clear. This in itself is a very great benefit in itself. In one of the suttas (and I can't remember which one right now) the Buddha said "we are the Happy Ones" when referring to those lucky people who practiced the Brahma Viharas not only in their daily life but while in sitting meditation. I have found in teaching others the Brahma Viharas that they do experience many benefits from this practice and other people do notice the changes in them for the better. I hope I have now answered your questions. If they are not clear please feel free to question me more. Maha-Metta Always Bhante Vimalaramsi 38220 From: rjkjp1 Date: Fri Nov 12, 2004 7:33pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Sarah: "One path" --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Bhante Vimalaramsi wrote: > > Dhamma Greetings Robert, > > A quick question to contemplate. How do Pacceka Budhas become enlightened > when they live outside of the Buddha eras? > Dear Venerable Vimalaramsi, Welcome to the group and thanks for the question. Pacceka Buddhas develop parami for many, many asankheyya kappas. They learn Dhamma from various Buddha's in many lives and it is said they are greater than even sariputta or mahamoggallana. Thus they can become Buddha by themselves in their final life. However, they do not have the same depth of parami as a sammasambuddha and so cannot teach in detail. Robertk 38221 From: robmoult Date: Fri Nov 12, 2004 8:16pm Subject: There is a Practice (Re: [dsg] Re: New to Group) Hi James, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: > Ps. Rob M, if you are reading, I am still working on the talks. > Just taking a little break to freshen the mind ;-). Building > inspiration… Still reading. You've given me some excellent material thus far. I will work on the base presentation and leave it to you to add the spice for flavouring. If it makes it faster, you can just pass on "spicy" suggestions and leave the base stuff to me. It turns out that I will be able to use PowerPoint and a projector, so I am creating a set of slides. I am still trying to think of ways to make it more interactive (I only have 90 minutes, so a workshop would be difficult). Metta, Rob M :-) 38222 From: Antony Woods Date: Fri Nov 12, 2004 9:31pm Subject: Metta for oneself translation question Dear Group, I found this very interesting quote by the renowned meditation master and scholar Mahasi Sayadaw about how we deserve metta for ourselves. My only doubt is that the translation from Burmese might be wrong. The critical Pali phrase is "attana piyataram" - translated here as "a person who *deserves* more love and affection than one's own Self....... (cannot be found) It doesn't seem consistent with the translation of the rest of the passage. It is different saying that a person loves himself the most (the standard translation from the Mallika Sutta) and so if he loves himself he wouldn't harm another, and saying that he *deserves* his love and affection the most (I usually believe that I don't deserve to be happy which is a major obstacle to meditation) ======= "The Enlightened One has made an exposition by preaching a Verse as quoted below which indicates that a person loves his own self the most. Sabba disa anuparigamma' cetasa nevalihaga piyatara' mattana kvaci. Evam piyo puthu atta pareysam, tasama na him se paramattakamo. Sabba disa - all ten regions or places, cetasa - with imagination or thoughts, anuparigamma - going round and round in search of, attana piyataram - a person who deserves more love and affection than one's own Self, kvaci - in any place or anywhere, neva allhaga - cannot be found. Evam, Similarly, pareysam - other people also, puthu atta - with reference to their own respective Self, piyo - love (himself) the most. Tasama - Inasmuch as every being loves his own Self the most, attakamo - one who loves his own Self, nay, who cares most of his own welfare or for his own good, param - will not cause another person, na him se - suffer, misery, nay, should develop metta without causing misery to others. http://www.buddhanet.net/brahmaviharas/bvd020.htm Patrick Kearney challenges this translation in the following link and concludes saying "For the Buddha, letting go of the self *is* letting go of unworthiness and self-hatred" http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Buddhaviharas/message/162 What do you think? Thanks / Antony. 38223 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sat Nov 13, 2004 1:10am Subject: Re: "Develop!" Hello Robert, all, It is a simple thing now that you have explained it as a rhetorical device, but it had been a difficulty for me. Amazing the little things that are tough knots to undo sometimes. Thank you. metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" > wrote: > > > > Hello Robert, > > > > Thanks for your reply. I found it helpful when you said "Craving, > as > > much as other dhammas, can > > be an object for understanding. .... There > > is no way that I can immediately remove (at least, at this point > in > > time) the feeling of being the watcher, the do-er, and the knower. > I > > have found with defilements that suppression doesn't have a high > > success rate, but noticing what is going on often robs them of > > energy, and they fade away fairly quickly. I don't think I can > > manufacture sati, but I wonder if I can't at least create, or set > in > > place, the conditions that would be conducive for it to arise? And > > similarly with panna? > > > > Sometimes I feel we get caught in a sort of politically correct > > vocabulary - we change the structure of our sentences to > say 'Panna' > > knows or 'Sati' sees, but nothing else has changed ... there is > > still the watcher, the do-er and the knower - but Hush! ... don't > > mention Me. > >============= > Dear Christine, > The reason we use language like 'panna know' is only as a rhetorical > device to bring attention to the fact that it is in fact not my > seeing but only an element. Of course one can speak like that and > still believe and cling to self view. We can think 'there is no > self' but still believe it is me who chose to think like that! > > When we are concerned with making the conditions for insight to > arise, what is present? Only by seeing actaul relaities as they > arise will any understanding develop. > Certainly there are many conditions that are supportive of insight- > hearing true Dhamma, pondering it...discusion with wise friends. > Even keeping house and body clean are helpful. > But if there isn't direct awareness , to some degree, of the present > moment, in whatever situation, then insight will remain shallow. > Also other mental factors such as saddha strenghthen insight, and of > course insight strenghthes saddha too. > Robertk 38224 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sat Nov 13, 2004 1:11am Subject: Re: India - Appropos of nothing Thank you Howard! :-) Yes, it is definitely the guests who have to fit in and change. Once you are away from it, it becomes quite endearing in hindsight - but when it is happening, the present reality arising is "murderous rage" (this is a joke! :-)) metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Christine - > > In a message dated 11/12/04 4:22:42 AM Eastern Standard Time, > cforsyth1@b... writes: > > > So - I called one of the american ladies from the next room for > > assistance - mission accomplished. For all I know the bed head is > > still lying there along the windows, under the curtains, on the > > second floor of that hotel in India. It is possible that many > > guests have had Circular Conversations with Housekeeping about how > > it got there, and what should be done about it. > > > > They'll learn. > > > ========================= > From the sound of things, it seem that the "they" who will learn are > the guests, and not the staff! ;-)) > Your descriptions, BTW, are wonderful - and hilarious! > > With metta, > Howard > 38225 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sat Nov 13, 2004 1:17am Subject: Nalanda ... if only .... Dear All, I'm still having reactions of 'I've been there! I saw that!' when I come across mention of places recently visited in India in the suttas. India is hard to shake off. Others from the trip are feeling the same - I had a message from a dear Dhamma friend mentioning the difficulty in settling back into the mundane workaday world, and the feeling of still being in an 'India-daze'. I was reading the sutta Majjhima 56 'To Upaali (where a wealthy and influential house-holder Upaali, a prominent supporter of the Jains, proposes to go to the Buddha and refute his doctrine. Instead, he finds himself converted by the Buddha's "converting magic"). I noticed in verse 13 that the Buddha had been to Nalanda: "What do you think, householder? Is this town of Nalanda successful and prosperous, is it populous and crowded with people?" "Yes, venerable sir, it is." "What do you think, householder? Suppose a man came here brandishing a sword and spoke thus: 'In one moment, in one instant, I will make all the living beings in this town of Nalanda into one mass of flesh, into one heap of flesh.' What do you think, householder, would that man be able to do that?" .... snipped ..... It brought back a memory of wandering sadly around the ruins, and speaking with an elderly volunteer who had an M.A. in Pali and Archeology. Nalanda was the site of the most renowned university in ancient India. It derived its name from Na-alam-da, meaning Insatiable in Giving, one of the names by which the Lord Buddha was known. The Buddha came to Nalanda often and stayed at Setthi Pavarika's mango grove. Two of the Great Disciples, Saariputta (Marshal of the Dhamma) and MahaaMoggallaana (Master of Psychic Powers) came from the vicinity of Nalanda. Saariputta, who was considered the foremost in wisdom, attained Nibbana here. Emperor Asoka came to Nalanda to worship at the chaitya (sacred place) of Saariputta and built another temple over the existing shrine. It was at this sanctified site that the Mahavihara was first established in the reign of Emperor Kumargupta in the 5th century A.D., a tradition carried forward by his successors inthe Gupta dynasty. During the reign of Devapala in the beginning of the 9th century, Nalanda reached its zenith of fame and glory. Scholars converged on this blessed place, but only two out of ten were allowed to enter as students (after examination by the Gatekeeper). It is said tht Nalanda had 2000 teachers, 10000 students and 1500 workers. The art of debate (vada) and public speaking, and secular subjects like mathematics and medicine were taught. Doctrinal points were continually debated and debating was a necessary part of monastic education. Among the renowned Indian scholars trained at Nalanda were Nagarjuna, Aryadeva and Asanga. Santarakshita, and thereafter, Padmasambhava, went to Tibet from Nalanda to spread the teachings of the Buddha. A massive fire, schisms between the different Buddhist sects and the resurgence of devotional Hinduism pushed Nalanda to the brink of destruction. Its final nemesis came with the Muslim invader Bakhtiyar Khalji, around 1200 A.D. who was responsible for its destruction. (I wonder what happened to him eventually?) Some of the (estimated) 9 million manuscripts were rescued from Nalanda's 700 year old libraries by a few of the monks who were able to flee from the onslaught. Tradition has it that the smoke billowed from the burning piles of books of the great University of Nalanda for 6 months. Today it is a World Heritage Site. One wonders, would things have been any different if only the books had not been burned, and the teachers not killed, both in Nalanda, and also in Alexandria? Perhaps, perhaps not - Still our world revolves by the power of greed, hate and delusion. Still some of us destroy that which is different or which we don't understand, not just those who have something we want. One wonders what Bakhtiyar Khalji and his troops felt, if there was any remorse or guilt? Plus ca change, plus c'est la meme chose! ... or Same old, same old ... metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- 38226 From: buddhatrue Date: Sat Nov 13, 2004 2:24am Subject: There is a Practice (Re: [dsg] Re: New to Group) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" wrote: > > Hi James, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" > wrote: > > > Ps. Rob M, if you are reading, I am still working on the talks. > > Just taking a little break to freshen the mind ;-). Building > > inspiration… > > Still reading. You've given me some excellent material thus far. I > will work on the base presentation and leave it to you to add the > spice for flavouring. > > If it makes it faster, you can just pass on "spicy" suggestions and > leave the base stuff to me. > > It turns out that I will be able to use PowerPoint and a projector, > so I am creating a set of slides. > > I am still trying to think of ways to make it more interactive (I > only have 90 minutes, so a workshop would be difficult). > > Metta, > Rob M :-) Friend Rob M., Since I know that your talk is coming soon, I will do as you suggest and give you some ideas to `spice' up the remainder factors of the Noble Eightfold Path: Right Action: "And what, monks, is right action? Abstaining from taking life, abstaining from stealing, abstaining from sexual intercourse: This, monks, is called right action." Notes: Speak about how harmful actions, like killing, stealing, and sexual misconduct, `stain' a person for a very long time. Give the example of Lady Macbeth who couldn't remove the blood from her hands "Out, out damned spot!" But, in actuality, she couldn't remove the blood from her mind. Right Action will allow us to live without the `stain' of guilt and negative karma (Most teenagers have studied Macbeth in school or at least know of it). Right Livelihood: "And what, monks, is right livelihood? There is the case where a disciple of the noble ones, having abandoned dishonest livelihood, keeps his life going with right livelihood: This, monks, is called right livelihood." Notes: Speak about how greed for money should not outweigh the need to make an honest living. You could give the example of Ebenezer Scrooge, from A Christmas Carol, and how his greed for money alienated all of his friends and family. It wasn't until he gave up this greed did he find happiness. One should not have a job which harms others. Right Effort: "And what, monks, is right effort? (i) There is the case where a monk generates desire, endeavors, activates persistence, upholds & exerts his intent for the sake of the non- arising of evil, unskillful qualities that have not yet arisen. (ii) He generates desire, endeavors, activates persistence, upholds & exerts his intent for the sake of the abandonment of evil, unskillful qualities that have arisen. (iii) He generates desire, endeavors, activates persistence, upholds & exerts his intent for the sake of the arising of skillful qualities that have not yet arisen. (iv) He generates desire, endeavors, activates persistence, upholds & exerts his intent for the maintenance, non-confusion, increase, plenitude, development, & culmination of skillful qualities that have arisen: This, monks, is called right effort." Notes: You could use the analogy of the mind as being like a flower garden. The flowers are the wholesome states of mind and the weeds are the unwholesome states of mind. To grow the flowers, you must water and fertilize them and give them care; you must also remove any weeds which grow so that they don't kill the flowers. Weeds, unwholesome thoughts, grow a lot faster than flowers and, if given the opportunity, can kill an entire garden. It is only by diligence that the garden can be made to grow beautiful. (I'm sure you can use your Abhidhamma knowledge to point out what are the mental weeds and what are the mental flowers ;-). Right Mindfulness: "And what, monks, is right mindfulness? (i) There is the case where a monk remains focused on the body in & of itself - - ardent, aware, & mindful -- putting away greed & distress with reference to the world. (ii) He remains focused on feelings in & of themselves -- ardent, aware, & mindful -- putting away greed & distress with reference to the world. (iii) He remains focused on the mind in & of itself -- ardent, aware, & mindful -- putting away greed & distress with reference to the world. (iv) He remains focused on mental qualities in & of themselves -- ardent, aware, & mindful -- putting away greed & distress with reference to the world. This, monks, is called right mindfulness." Notes: Mindful? What is the mind supposed to be full of? Imagine the mind as like a gum ball machine full of gum balls. There are four different types of gum balls: red, blue, yellow, and green. The red gum balls are sensations from the body; the blue gum balls are feelings; the yellow gum balls are mental states; and the blue gum balls are various phenomena (dhammas). Just like one gum ball can come out of the machine at a time, awareness can only be aware of one of these gum balls at a time. Mindfulness is being aware of each gum ball, in and of itself, as it comes out of the machine. (This isn't a great analogy, but it is a simple as I can make this subject! ;-)) Right Concentration: "And what, monks, is right concentration? (i) There is the case where a monk -- quite withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful (mental) qualities -- enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. (ii) With the stilling of directed thought & evaluation, he enters & remains in the second jhana: rapture & pleasure born of concentration, one-pointedness of awareness free from directed thought & evaluation -- internal assurance. (iii) With the fading of rapture, he remains in equanimity, mindful & fully aware, and physically sensitive of pleasure. He enters & remains in the third jhana, of which the Noble Ones declare, 'Equanimous & mindful, he has a pleasurable abiding.' (iv) With the abandoning of pleasure & pain -- as with the earlier disappearance of elation & distress -- he enters & remains in the fourth jhana: purity of equanimity & mindfulness, neither pleasure nor pain. This, monks, is called right concentration." Notes: Right Concentration is composed of the four jhanas. Explain that jhanas are a very refined states of mind, in successive steps, that come about through meditation on single subjects (breath, Brahma Viharas, colors, etc.). You can make a comparison to video games which have different levels of achievement. In order to get to the next level in a video game, one must fulfill the requirements of the previous level. And the Buddha taught that his monks should practice the jhanas (and he taught laypeople to achieve at least the first two) as much as possible so that they can quickly get to the highest levels. Hope this helps. Metta, James 38227 From: plnao Date: Sat Nov 13, 2004 3:28am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sarah: "One path" Thank you Bhante! I'm having trouble accessing most internet pages - they freeze up because of a virus problem with my computer. - but I was able to access yours. This could be a testimony to the power of the metta that is evident in your kind smile in the photographs! :) I look forward to learning more from your teaching. Metta, Phil > Dhamma Greetings Phil, > > You may find it helpful to go to my website at www.dhammasukha.org I have > some talks there that you may find helpful especially the titled Metta in > daily life. I have also written out the instructions for metta in a small > booklet called "The Barebones of Loving-kindness". There is also the > instructions for "Mindfulness of Breathing" in another booklet. Please > feel free to download these if you find them useful. I have also have a > two part post about how to handle the hindrances when they arise that you > may find helpful it is called The hindrances up close and personal. 38228 From: htootintnaing Date: Sat Nov 13, 2004 4:48am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vis. XIV, 112, 113 Dear Larry, No. It definitely is not. There are 5 successive javana cittas as the last minute vithi vara. You already know about javana andf this needs not to be explained. Javana is javana and it is not patisandhi or bhavanga or cuti. Three kinds of cittas are all the same in terms of bhumi, jati, sankhara, sampayutta dhamma and arammana dhamma. They are patisandhi, bhavanga and cuti cittas. You are right to say the first is given to the name patisandhi and the last is to cuti. Actually they are bhavanga cittas, yes. But according to their placement in serial and their function they are not bhavanga at all. Last life cuti citta and next life patisandhi citta are not the same. They may talke different bhumi, different jati, different sankhara, different sampayutta dhamma, and different arammana. But next life patisandhi and next life 1st bhavanga are all the same with the exception that patisandhi comes first. So it is very clear that 'next life patisandhi citta' DOES the job of linking of previous life cuti citta and next life 1st bhavanga citta. That is why it is called patisandhi citta. Javana cittas are never patisandhi or bhavanga or cuti cittas. Because javana cittas are conscious cittas or vithi cittas while all of patisandhi citta, bhavanga citta, and cuti citta are vipaka cittas and they all are vithi-mutta cittas or sense-door-free consciousness. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@w... wrote: > Hi Nina, > > I'm a little skeptical that rebirth linking and dying consciousnesses > actually do anything. They just seem to be the first and last bhavanga > consciousness. The real rebirth linking and dying consciousness seems to > me is the last javana consciousnesses. > > Larry 38229 From: htootintnaing Date: Sat Nov 13, 2004 4:50am Subject: Re: Vis. XIV, 112, 113 Dear Nina, Thank you very much for this post. This part that you explained is very clear and easily understandable even for beginners if they do produce effort. With Metta, Htoo Naing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > Vis. XIV, 112, 113 > > Text Vis. 112. When, through the influence of the profitable of the > fine-material > sphere (9)-(13) and the immaterial sphere (14)-(17), beings are reborn > [respectively] in the fine-material and immaterial kinds of becoming, > then the nine kinds of fine-material (57)-(61) and immaterial (62)- (65) > resultant occur as 'rebirth-linking'; and they do so making their object > only the sign of kamma that has appeared at the time of dying.[43] > ------------------------ > Note 43. ' "The sign of kamma" here is only the kamma's own object > consisting of an earth kasina, etc.' (Pm.478). > > N: When ruupajhaana or aruupajhaana has been developed and the jhaana has > not declined, kamma conditions the last javana-cittas which have as object > the meditation subject of ruupa-jhaana or aruupa-jhaana, and it will produce > rebirth in ruupa-brahma planes or aruupa-brahma-planes, depending on the > stage of jhaana which has been attained. > > Vis. text: 113: When, through the influence of the unprofitable (22)-(33), > they are reborn in a state of loss, then the one kind of unprofitable > resultant > mind-consciousness-element without root-cause (56) occurs as > rebirth-linking; and it does so making its object whichever among the > kamma, sign of kamma, and sign of destiny has appeared at the time of > dying. > > N: There is only one type of akusala vipaakacitta that performs the function > of rebirth, bhavanga and dying and this is the santiira.na-citta that is > akusala vipaakacitta. This type has many degrees and arises in the unhappy > planes of existence: the animal world, the ghost world, the demon world and > the hell planes. > > Vis. text: This firstly is how the occurrence of nineteen kinds of resultant > consciousness should be understood as rebirth-linking. > > N: these types are: > 1 akusala vipaaka santiira.na-citta (ahetuka, result of akusala kamma) > 1 kusala vipaaka santiira.na-citta (ahetuka, result of weak kaamaavacara > kusala kamma) > 8 mahaa-vipaakacittas (sahetuka, results of kaamaavacara kusala kammas) > 5 ruupaavacara vipaakacittas (sahetuka, results of ruupa- jhaanacittas) > 4 aruupaavacara vipaakacittas (sahetuka, results of aruupa- jhaanacittas) > > Thus, nineteen types of citta can perform the function of rebirth, bhavanga > (life-continuum) and dying. > ***** > Nina. 38230 From: htootintnaing Date: Sat Nov 13, 2004 5:02am Subject: There is a Practice (Re: [dsg] Re: New to Group) Dear Nina, As you said Abhidhamma is our daily life. If understood, it is a kind of meditation. When I read through your reply to Bhante Vimalaramsi, your reply is neutral and constructive as once I saw your response to Bhikkhu Samahita. Bhikkhus rarely join Groups and talk. Most bhikkhus that I know, to be exact, all bhikkhus that I know do not involve in public discussions at internet Groups with a few exceptions where there is strict control of vinaya. There are bhikkhus who never appeared at Groups but wrote to me and supported me what I have been looking for. For some posts, before I wrote I had to consult them and they searched in Tipitaka and helped me out. But they never appeared in internet. When we have access to bhikkhus we are fortunate. We all should welcome bhikkhus in Dhamma discussions. Especially experienced practising bhikkhus can help a lot to many people. With Metta, Htoo Naing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > Venerable Bhante, > welcome to the list, thank you for writing. You give us food for thought. > I shall just touch on a few points. > > op 11-11-2004 17:09 schreef Bhante Vimalaramsi op > bhantevimalaramsi@j...: ..snip..snip.. .. We are born with different > accumulated tendencies. > You give us many points for reflection, thank you. I appreciate it that you > took the time to write to us. > With respect, > Nina. 38231 From: htootintnaing Date: Sat Nov 13, 2004 5:20am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sarah: "One path" Dear Bhante Vimalaramsi, According to suggestions by moderators of this group and the list rules, I cut out all unused old message of yours. This is not disrespectful to you. I include this for you to understand me. With respect, Htoo Naing ---------- Bhante Vimalaramsi: One of the main differences was one sentence given in the instructions for the "Mindfulness of Breathing" (which by the way is ignored in the Visuddhi Magga) it says, "He trains thus: 'I shall breathe in, tranquilizing the bodily formation'; He trains thus: 'I shall breathe out tranquilizing the bodily formation". So I applied this tranquilizing with everything (that is not only while sitting in meditation, but when doing daily activities as well) and soon found a real difference in the way I saw how mind moved and worked. That was a real eye opener! Or as I have come to realize it a real "Oh, Wow" experience. Maha-Metta always Bhante Vimalaramsi ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I do write this becuase there are many who argue that suttas say samma-samadhi is all 8 jhanas that is 4 rupa jhanas and 4 arupa jhanas. I do not say suttas are wrong. Equally I do not say Abhidhamma is wrong. And I do not say suttas and Abhidhamma do not agree. There are those who purely learn Suttas and they devalue Abhidhamma and say Abhidhamma is not Buddha's words and so on. This show inability to penetrate Dhamma. I would strongly say that those who are in jhanas that is who are developing jhana cittas of rupavacara kind, those who are absorbed in jhanas cannot see anicca, dukkha, anatta but they just see the object of rupavacara jhana cittas which is pannatti. No citta can take 2 objects at the same moment at the same time. Rupavacara jhana cittas ALWAYS ALWAYS take pannatti dhamma as their object. So they cannot take nibbana as their object. In citta portion of Dhamma Thread I have discussed this matter. But as it is very important and crucial, I repeat it here again. If in jhanas, the practitioner has to emerge from jhana and has to do paccavakkhana or scrutinization or contemplation on dhammas he experienced. At that time he is not in jhanas and not at pannatti dhamma. But as he is still in the vicinity of jhana, there is no hindrances at all and he is not absorbed at that time and mind is free and not fixed. At that time all cittas are kusala cittas. But they are not rupavacara rupakusala cittas or arupavacara arupakusala cittas which are jhanas. So their kusala cittas are kamavacara mahakusala cittas. These nana sampayutta cittas do lead to nibbana through manodvaravajjana, parikamma, upcara, anuloma, gotrabhu and then ascend up to magga citta. If the practitioner is still in rupa jhanas then he is seeing rupa jhana object which is pannatti dhamma. With respect, Htoo Naing 38232 From: htootintnaing Date: Sat Nov 13, 2004 5:34am Subject: [dsg] Re: Sarah: "One path" Dear Bhante Vimalaramsi, Robert K and All, Paccekabuddhas do arise even in era when there does not arise any Sammasambuddha. Example paccekabuddhas-to-be are Devadattha and Ajatassattu. King Ajatasaatu did have the power that might lead him to sotapatti magga nana. But as there was Garuka Kamma of patricide, sotapatti magga citta could not arise and after his death, he was reborn in the lowest hell called 'avici' which means 'no interval of free of dukkha'. But niraya is also impermanent. When all his bad kamma that led him to be reborn in that realm he will reborn in other realm and when he is back to sugati, his final life will be paccekabuddha. Devadattha did a lot of Garuka Kamma of akusala kind like harming and bruising to The Buddha several times and division of Sangha and he had to be reborn in avici niraya. But when he is back to sugati and his finally life will be paccekabuddha. There are 3 kinds of Sammasambuddhas. They have to perfect for their own perfection according to their power. 1. Saddhadhika ( 16 asancheyya and 100,000 kappas ) 2. Viriyadhika ( 8 asancheyya and 100,000 kappas ) 3. Pannadhika ( 4 asancheyya and 100,000 kappas ) Paccekabuddhas-to-be have to perfect 2 asancheyya and 100,000 kappas. Aggasavakas-to-be have to perfect 1 asancheyya and 100,000 kappas. Mahasavakas-to-be have to perfect 0 asancheyya and 100,000 kappas. Samannasavakas-to-be have to perfect less than above great beings. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Bhante Vimalaramsi > wrote: > > > > Dhamma Greetings Robert, > > > > A quick question to contemplate. How do Pacceka Budhas become > enlightened > > when they live outside of the Buddha eras? > > > Dear Venerable Vimalaramsi, > Welcome to the group and thanks for the question. > Pacceka Buddhas develop parami for many, many asankheyya kappas. > They learn Dhamma from various Buddha's in many lives and it is said > they are greater than even sariputta or mahamoggallana. Thus they > can become Buddha by themselves in their final life. > However, they do not have the same depth of parami as a > sammasambuddha and so cannot teach in detail. > Robertk 38233 From: htootintnaing Date: Sat Nov 13, 2004 5:40am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sarah: "One path" Bhante: Dhamma Greetings Phil, ..snip..snip.. ..As you said "This is still my highest goal as a human being - to become more loving, more compassionate, more joyful, more equanimitous and free from knee-jerk reactions." May you be truly successful and with that kind of intention, may you attain nibbana quickly and easily in this very life! Maha-Metta always Bhante Vimalaramsi ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Bhante Vimalaramsi, Knee-jerk reactions can only be free when the components are no more working like cutting up of nerve that supplies knee. All human beings who are disease free do have knee jerks. If they have lost knee jerks this indicate something is happening. Arahats who are free of disease will have knee jerks. Knee jerk is nothing to do with cittas. With respect, Htoo Naing 38234 From: htootintnaing Date: Sat Nov 13, 2004 5:50am Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 121 ) Dear Dhamma Friends, Pannatti dhamma is an interesting subject. It does not arise and it does not fall away. It is not an event. It is non-event. It does not hold any of tilakkhana namely anicca or impermanance, dukkha or suffering, and anatta or non-self. Pannatti is not an ultimate reality. It is not an ultimate truth. But it is very important dhamma. Without pannatti we will not understand anything at all. That is why we need to study pannatti dhamma in dhamma study. If pannatti is not understood, then paramattha dhamma will not be understood. When dhammas are not understood, it is hard to transcend this samsara or round of births which is birth-death-birth-death- birth..beginningless-endless cycle. So what does pannatti mean? Pannatti means 'name' 'idea' notion' 'concept' 'designation' 'description' 'manifestation' or 'making known'. Pannatti is a dhamma that makes us known paramattha dhamma and also pannatti dhamma as well. So this is quite evident that pannatti does help us understand everything including pannatti. There are two forms of pannatti dhamma even though both do not exist as ultimate realities or ultimate truths. These two types are atthapannatti and saddapannatti. Saddapannatti is based on sound or voice that represent atthapannatti while atthapannatti is the intrinsic meaning of any pannatti dhamma. Example of saddapannatti is 'water'. When we look through paramattha- scope, there is no water at all. Surely 'water' is pannatti dhamma. But whenever it is shown to anyone in this world on this earth, those who have been shown 'water' will understand it as 'water'. This is the intrinsic nature of 'water' which does not exist as an ultimate reality. This meaning in its intrinsic nature is called atthapannatti. No other material will take the position of water. This is atthapannatti. Saddapannatti on the other hand is based on voice or sound that human beings use to bring up the meaning of 'water'. Example is when the voice saying 'water' will not make any understanding to people who never heard of the voice saying 'water' before and never learned before that 'water' is what they know 'water'. When 'water' is voiced by a speaker and it is heard by listeners who are not English and who never learned English will not know that they are being told about 'water'. But when they are shown water they will definitely know that what they heard actually referred to 'water' which they have already known. Water may be sounded or voiced in other languages that are not English which will be different articulation and different voice- sound. Examples are paani, udaka, apa, yay, suei, mitsu and many others. All these stand on their own and they will each make known to their particular language speaker. But in essence, all are the same and it is water. This intrinsic nature that make us knwon as 'water' is called 'atthapannatti'. Other voices that represent the same meaning are all saddapannatti. Pannatti is essential. Without pannatti we cannot discuss anything at all. But we must know what are pannatti dhamma and what paramattha dhamma. This again will depend on how deeply we have learned. Otherwise differentiation between pannatti dhamma and paramattha dhamma is very difficult and it even needs practical experience. There are 6 different atthapannattas. They are 1.vijjamana pannatta, 2.avijjamana pannatta, 3.vijjamanenavijja pannatta, 4.avijjamanenaavijja pannatta, 5.vijjamanenaavijja pannatta, 6.avijjamanenavijja pannatta. Examples of these pannatta dhammas are 1. vijjamana pannatta Sadda. This is sound. Its intrinsic nature or intrinsic meaning is sound that we can heard through our ear. Those words whichever languages we are using, which represent 'sound' in its atthapannatta is that it is a reality and it is ultimate truth. This can be proved as sound does exist. So this kind of atthapannatta is called 'vijjamana pannatta'. Vijja means 'penetrative wisdom'. Mana here means 'building' 'measure'. So vijjamana means 'wisdom- building'. Even though the word 'sound' does not exist which is a pannatta and not an ultimate reality, it brings up 'wisdom-building idea'. So here the example 'sadda' is called 'vijjamana pannatta'. 2. avijjamana pannatta Water. This is a word that isn used to represent the meaning of water. But there is no water in ultimate sense. Water is not an ultimate reality. When people do not understand this pannatta matter, they try to argue endlessly quoting old wisdom that was developed by philosophers of different era and different background. Actually there is no water at all in ultimate sense. What we see as water is not water. It is clear colourless substance that reflects into our eye as bright light of different degrees according to ambient temperature and weather. What we hear is not water. Even 'apo rupa' which is sensed by manodvara is not water. So there is no water at all in ultimate sense. So this word 'water' which is a pannatta, atthapannatta does not bring up any ultimate sense and does not build up wisdom. So it is avijjamana pannatta. 3. vijjamanenavijja pannatta Cakkhu vinnana. Cakkhu is a vijjamana pannatta. Vinnana is also vijjamana pannatta. Both build up wisdom and this combination making a new word called 'cakkhuvinnana' is also building up wisdom. Cakkhuvinnana does exist as an ultimate reality and it has ultimate meaning, ultimate sense. So it brings up understanding of ultimate truth called paramattha dhamma. So this kind of pannatta is called vijjamanenavijja pannatta. 4. avijjamanenaavijja pannatta Raja putto. King's son. There is no 'king' in ultimate sense. There is no 'son' in ultimate sense. So rajaputta or king's son is called avijjamanenaavijja pannatta. 5. avijjamanenavijja pannatta Itthi saddo. Woman's voice. There is no woman at all in ultimate sense. But there is 'voice' or 'sound' which is an ultimate reality and builds up wisdom. So Itthisaddo or woman's voice is called avijjamanenavijja pannatta. 6. vijjamanenaavijja pannatta Cakkhu dvara. Eye door. There exists 'cakkhu' which is an ultimate reality. But there is no 'door' at all. This word is a pannatta and it is called vijjamanenaavijja pannatta. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome and they will be valuable. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts. 38235 From: Bhante Vimalaramsi Date: Sat Nov 13, 2004 6:12am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sarah: "One path" Dhamma Greetings Htoo, The fourth jhana is divided into different sections and are commonly called the arupa jhanas. And what you are describing and the jhanas is talking about the one-pointed absorption jhanas. I agree when looked at in this way. But when the meditator does follow the instructions closely in the suttas they will see a different type of awareness as did Venerable Sariputta in sutta #111 of the Majjhima Nikaya (The Anupada Sutta) the list of things that Venerable saw one by one as they occurred are (for the first jhana): The applied thought, the sustained thought, the joy, the happiness, and the unification of mind; the contact, feeling, perception, volition, and consciousness; the zeal (chanda), decision, energy, mindfulness, equanimity and attention - these things were defined by him one by one as they occurred; known to him they arose, know to him they were present, known they disappeared. He understood thus: "So indeed, these states, not having been, come into being, having been, they vanish." Regarding those states, he abided unattracted, unrepeled, independent, detached, free, dossociated, with a mind rid of barriers." This sutta then goes on the describe each of the different jhanas up to the Realm of Nothingness. This is very interesting because the 5 aggregates are in each of these jhanas and are clearly seen. So when you are talking about this kind of jhana (Tranquility) they are many different things that can and do arise while one is practicing meditation. And again, this is a different kind of awareness than what you have so kindly pointed out. The differences between the one-pointed absorption jhana and the tranquility jhana are as different as night and day. To have that fluid kind of awareness while in jhana is truly a remarkable experience and the only way that I have found to experience this is by adding that extra step of tranquilizing the bodily formation on the in and out breath. I sincerely hope that you do see the difference between the 2 different types of jhana. Maha-Metta always Bhante Vimalaramsi 38236 From: Bhante Vimalaramsi Date: Sat Nov 13, 2004 7:17am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sarah: "One path" Dhamma Greetings Sarah, Because my Buddha-Dhamma is grounded in the practical (experiential) approach not theoretical approach ( theories can change to easily, but when one has a direct experience they know exactly for themselves so the experiential experience has the saddha that the Buddha was talking about in it), how does one overcome the knee-jerk reactions? When practicing through meditation the meditator becomes very, very familiar with how all of the hindrances arise all of the time, not just while sitting in meditation. As they are beginning to see, this is an impersonal process of dependent origination, they will eventually begin to see for themselves exactly how this works more and more rapidly and let it go much more quickly (this is the way sati helps the meditator to let go of any and all knee-jerk reactions). One of the functions of meditation is to help the meditator to become more and more familiar with this impersonal process of dependent origination and with the being familiar with/of this process, it helps the meditator to speed up their awareness and calm ones mind. The ultimate goal of meditation is to let go and relax all of the tightnesses and tensions that arise. Loving-acceptance of the present moment, then relaxing any tensions found in the mind/body is the way to equanimity all of the time. Ergo, the knee-jerk reactions begin to disappear with the direct experiential development of close observation (sati) of "HOW" dependent origination actually arises in every moment. It is interesting to see so many people talk about "craving" but don't really know what it is. So we get into definitions again. From the experiential point of view, the tightness that arises with each movement of mind is "craving". "Craving" is the "I like it... I don't like it mind" (Please notice that this is where the false idea of a personal self (atta or "I") begins. So when the "craving" is let go of, so is this false idea of a personal self[atta]). And this "craving" always manifests as a tension or tightness in both the mind and body (especially in the head) so the instructions given in the Mahasatipatthana Sutta to tranquilize the bodily formation on the in and out breath is essential because it shows one the subtle tensions and tightnesses (cravings) that we carry around with us all of the time. In the Anapanasati Sutta it not only tells us to tranquilize the bodily formation but to tranquilize the mental formation on the in and out breath. I hope this is of some use to you. Maha-Metta always Bhante Vimalaramsi 38237 From: dowistgrasshopper Date: Sat Nov 13, 2004 8:38am Subject: Re: [dsg] two viewings of anatta Hi Phil, You raise an interesting question: what is the difference between detachment (alobha) and insight (pa~n~na). First, to address a possible misconception, there can be the case where one can regard an object with the idea "this is not me because I am something else". For example, I can look at an unpleasant feeling with the idea I am not this feeling because I am the unfeeling but intelligent consciousness looking at the feeling. There is obviously misunderstanding here. True detachment would simply regard the feeling without any additional baggage. Perhaps the main difference between detachment and what I called non-relational insight is one of superficiality and depth. Insight is a compulsion* to thoroughly investigate. It wants to get at the real feeling in the feeling, this one right now. It wants to know it for what it is, thoroughly and completely as it is. While detachment is not particularly interested. There is clearly a difference in experience here, but the most important aspect of this is that insight is able to dismantle reactive habits (accumulations) and, if it is penetrating enough, similar reactions will not arise again. Detachment, by itself, cannot do this, but if it is repeated it can become a wholesome habit. Larry ps: I'm experimenting with understanding sankhara as compulsions. What do you think? 38238 From: Larry Date: Sat Nov 13, 2004 8:59am Subject: Re: [dsg] two viewings of anatta Hi Phil, Don't be alarmed. I've been fooling around with my settings and I accidentally crossed into the twilight zone. I'm the "dowistgrasshopper" from a previous incarnation. Larry 38239 From: Bhante Vimalaramsi Date: Sat Nov 13, 2004 7:59am Subject: Re: There is a Practice (Re: [dsg] Re: New to Group) Dhamma Greetings James, Thank you for your kind appreciation of what I am trying to say. And I do have a question about feeling because this seems to me a place where many people have the tendency to get side tracked. In the process of dependent origination it is good to recognize feeling when it arises but the most important step in the ending of this process is in between feeling and "craving". Feeling by itself is just pleasant, painful or neither pleasant nor painful. But what happens right after the feeling arises is where so much dukkha arises. In a previous post I gave a definition of "craving" as being the "I like it... I don't like it mind" This is the point where both mind and body begin to tighten and clinging arises. "Clinging" is the concepts, ideas, and story about the craving and feeling. And this is where the false idea of a personal 'self' really takes hold and expands. And when the meditator's awareness is sharp enough they will be able to clearly see when a feeling arises and can relax right then (tranquilize both the bodily and mental formations). When this is done the "clinging" doesn't arise and the meditator is free from all of the mental chatter for a moment. Please let me explain something about letting go of "craving". When one is truly aware of the subtle tightnesses and tensions in their mind and body and let them go, there is a kind of subtle relief that first arises then a feeling of openness or expansion happens in ones mind and body. Right after that mind becomes exceptionally quiet, no thoughts arise at that time. This is the true "Cessation of Craving" (the third Noble Truth). Then the meditator brings this "craving free" mind back to the meditation object (be it the breath, metta, or a color). This is how mind becomes truly free from suffering and it must be done every time mind becomes distracted and begins to have hindrances in it (not only while one is formerly sitting in meditation, but all of the time [as much as possible anyway]). So my question is why such a strong focus on just the feeling? It seems to me to be much better to see the impersonal (anatta) process of the entire dependent origination. Again it seems to me that the more familiar one becomes with exactly how this impersonal process works the faster their progress in meditation will be. Hope this has been helpful to you. Maha-Metta always Bhante Vimalaramsi 38240 From: rahula_80 Date: Sat Nov 13, 2004 9:08am Subject: Bogus monks Hi, I have seen monks behaving improperly. I wish to know whether such behaviors are a breach of their training rules. I am perplex with what I read in books and what I have seen. Here are some questions I wish to get clarifications. Thanks, Rahula 1. Can monks used credit cards? 2. Can they go out at night, eg. to a cafe for a drink? (I saw a group of four monks having drinks and using videocam at a cafe during one night when I was there.) 3. I have seen monks in shopping complexes etc. Is this behaviour proper for monks? 4. As far as I know, monks are refrain from accepting gold and silver (money). But I have seen monks paying bus fare. Is this act a breach of the Patimokkha Training Rules (Buddhist Monastic Code)? 38241 From: rahula_80 Date: Sat Nov 13, 2004 10:06am Subject: Offering to the departed Hi, Recently, I read a book, ¡°Honouring The Departed- A Buddhist Perspective¡± by Aggacitta Bhikkhu. I feel uneasy and illogical. The viewpoint put forward by the author have make me questions the validity of Buddhism. I have always thought of Buddhism as a ¡°religion¡± that is not superstitious. It¡¯s regarding sharing merits with ghost, offering foods to the departed and Tirokutta Sutta According to the author, making offerings (food and drinks) to the departed was already an Indian custom at the time of Buddha, and suggest that that is how we should honour the departed. Is this true? It doesn¡¯t make sense, and sounds crazy. I have always thought that this practice is only done by those superstitious Chinese. What I have been reading all this while is that we perform meritorious deeds (eg. Dana to the Sangha) and then share the merits with the departed and only a peta would be able to partake in the sharing of merits. What is your opinion on this matter? Best wishes, Rahula 38242 From: buddhatrue Date: Sat Nov 13, 2004 10:32am Subject: There is a Practice (Re: [dsg] Re: New to Group) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Bhante Vimalaramsi wrote: > Dhamma Greetings James, > > Thank you for your kind appreciation of what I am trying to say. And I do > have a question about feeling because this seems to me a place where many > people have the tendency to get side tracked. Bhante Vimalaramsi, Venerable Sir, thank you for the e-mail. Yes, when I stated that the emphasis of awareness should be on the feelings, I of course also meant the underlying tendencies to craving, aversion, or ignorance in regards to such feelings. In my mind, it is really impossible to separate the two. One must be aware of the feelings and the underlying tendencies to such feelings. As the Buddha said: "In the case of pleasant feelings, O monks, the underlying tendency [8] to lust should be given up; in the case of painful feelings, the underlying tendency to resistance (aversion) should be given up; in the case of neither-painful-nor-pleasant feelings, the underlying tendency to ignorance should be given up. "If a monk has given up the tendency to lust in regard to pleasant feeling, the tendency to resistance in regard to painful feelings, and the tendency to ignorance in regard to neither-painful-nor- pleasant feelings, then he is called one who is free of (unwholesome) tendencies, one who has the right outlook. He has cut off craving, severed the fetters (to future existence), and through the full penetration of conceit,[9] he has made an end of suffering." Also: "There are, O monks, these three feelings: pleasant feelings, painful feelings, and neither-painful-nor-pleasant feelings." A disciple of the Buddha, mindful, clearly comprehending, with his mind collected, he knows the feelings[1] and their origin,[2] knows whereby they cease[3] and knows the path that to the ending of feelings lead.[4] And when the end of feelings he has reached, such a monk, his thirsting quenched, attains Nibbana."[5] Metta, James 38243 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sat Nov 13, 2004 11:22am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Buddhaghosa Never Created Theravada. To Nina Dear Suan, op 12-11-2004 15:35 schreef abhidhammika op suanluzaw@b...: > Nikaayantaraladdhiihi, asammissam anaakulam; > mahaavihaaravaasiinam, diipayanto vinicchayam. > Attham pakaasayissaami, aagama.t.thakathaasupi; > gahetabbam gahetvaana, tosayanto vicakkha.ne. > >> From Acariya Buddhaghosa's A.t.thasaalinii Ganthaarambhakathaa. > > "I will expose the meaning, satisfying the intelligent > By presenting the findings of the Great Temple Residents, > Which are not contaminated by alien doctrines, > Nor incoherent, and by taking whatever should be taken in the Suttam > Commentaries as well." N: He speaks very straight, straight to the heart. It appeals to me. When I was in Bodhgaya, we had a Dhamma discussion right next to the stupa commemorating Buddhaghosa's cremation. I had piiti and somanassa paying respect there. Thank you for this post, clarifying Buddhaghosa's position. Nina. 38244 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sat Nov 13, 2004 11:22am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Vis. XIV, 111, and Tiika, corrected. Hi Larry, op 12-11-2004 06:58 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > Why can't the final javanacitta be a sotaapanna lokuttara citta? N: When lokuttara magga-citta arises, its result, the phalacitta has to follow immediately (akaalika), without delay, in the same process. The result of lokuttara magga-citta could never be rebirth-consciousness. We read in the suttas that people at the end of life could attain enlightenment, but this does not happen during the last javana-cittas. It can be shortly before. recap. Vis. XIV, 105: At the moment of enlightenment, magga-citta arises, and then it is followed in the same process by phalacittas, fruition consciousness. The magga-citta conditions the vipaakacitta, fruition consciousness by way of anantara-paccaya and other conditions. There is no delay, it is akaliko. Vis. VII, 31: Kamma that is worldly, lokiya, produces its result later on, but the kusala kamma that is magga-citta, is the only kamma that produces vipaaka in the same process. ....N: Kusala kamma that is not lokuttara is a link in the cycle of birth and death. In the Expositor (II, p. 290) this kind of kamma that accumulates is compared to the building up a wall. The lokuttara magga-citta pulls down and demolishes this wall. Its result is completely different from the result of kamma of the other three planes of citta, it is not a link in the cycle of birth and death, it could not produce vipaaka in the form of rebirth-consciousness nor by way of a pleasant experience through one of the senses. **** The object of the lokuttara cittas is nibbana. The pa.tisandhi-citta and all bhavangacittas of the following life could never take nibbana as object. They have as object: kamma, kammanimitta or sign of destiny. L: By saying the object of bhavanga citta in this life is a sign of this > life I didn't mean that this sign influences this life, only that this > sign represents this life, just as the kamma, sign of kamma, or sign of > destiny which is the object of the final javana gives us an indication > of the next life. So, if we want to know what the object of bhavanga is > in this life we just have to look at this life. The kammavipaka of this life is the object of bhavanga, in a way, generally speaking. Correct? N: Instead of kammavipaka I find the term result of kamma clearer. There are many varied vipaakas in our life, and these may be the results of kammas of past lives even aeons ago. We can never trace this. We do not know anything about kammas of the past. And why should we find out? Why should we try to find out the object of our bhavangas? That distracts us from understanding seeing now, hearing now, anger now, all realities of our daily life we have to understand as not I or mine. This is our life task. Nina. 38245 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sat Nov 13, 2004 11:22am Subject: Re: [dsg] two viewings of anatta Hello Phil, op 12-11-2004 12:19 schreef plnao op plnao@j...: > Whatever it is that we find useful for becoming more detached, whether > it is in meditation, in the Suttanta, in Abhidhamma, in the commentaries, > even in an Elvis Presley song, if that works, it will help us towards > understanding > the Buddha's supreme teaching of anatta. N: During our India trip detachment was stressed every day. And it is understanding that leads to it. My lobha, that is wrong. Pañña can understand it as only a conditioned reality. Before we realize it we take it as my lobha, my dosa, although we know the truth in theory. PH: Thus I don't understand the need to defend Buddhaghosa, for example. If > his commentaries > help us become detached, they are good Dhamma. If not, the discerning mind > will know soon enough. N: Yes, we have to find out ourselves. A. Sujin said: the Buddha helped us to develop our own understanding. We are not dependent on someone else. She also said: we need not call it Buddhaghosa. Any person who can help us to have right understanding we should listen to. Nina. 38246 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sat Nov 13, 2004 11:22am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Help with clarification of "control" Dear Dave, op 12-11-2004 09:31 schreef sarah abbott op sarahprocterabbott@y...: > > I won't say more as KenH and TG have already given you helpful answers. > I'd be glad if you would look at the posts or ask further questions. You > might even like to raise your initial one again for Nina to see. N: Yes, do repeat your questions, Nina. 38247 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sat Nov 13, 2004 11:22am Subject: Re: Red hat revisited , Lodewijk's answer. Hello Phil and friends, op 12-11-2004 23:49 schreef plnao op plnao@j...: If I'm honest with myself, if I was given a > choice between liberation from > samsara and a day off with lots of suttas to read and a pot of herbal tea > and quiet in the house > and sunshine filling the room I would probably choose the latter! N: Yes, this is very sincere. I discussed your mail with Lodewijk (for those who do not know: my husband) at the dinner table. He said that he is satisfied with a step by step gradual progress, quite happy with a few crumbs of knowledge and understanding. Of course without losing sight of the eventual aim nibbana, how far away it may be. In India I was reading aloud to him the satipatthana sutta at the place where the Buddha preached this sutta: in Kuru. This place was a heap of dirt and public toilet before, but our friend S.K. Singh, former secretary of foreign affairs, had it restored and fenced in. We were up on the rocks sitting near the stone with Ashoka's inscription. Lodewijk said by hearing this sutta he came to the conclusion that without insight and understanding of the present moment no progress is possible. He said that the perfections cannot be developed without satipatthana, no metta without satipatthana. He finds the perfection of truthfulness most essential. We deceive ourselves all the time. We take for kusala what is akusala, we do not notice clinging to self, or conceit. We have to understand the present moment. I said to him: people will ask how this is developed. He answered: it is of no use to ask too many questions or debate about it. Develop it, it will grow by its own conditions. If we ask: how, how, it shows our clinging and this hinders. Nina. 38248 From: Larry Date: Sat Nov 13, 2004 11:29am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vis. XIV, 112, 113 Htoo: "So it is very clear that 'next life patisandhi citta' DOES the job of linking of previous life cuti citta and next life 1st bhavanga citta. That is why it is called patisandhi citta." Hi Htoo, This makes sense. Perhaps we could say cuti citta does the job of not continuing. Ordinarily this wouldn't seem like a job, but there is something about bhavanga cittas that otherwise makes them continue. This is part of their function, if not condition. Btw, any thoughts on what is the difference between function and condition? They both continue. Larry 38249 From: plnao Date: Sat Nov 13, 2004 1:54pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Red hat revisited , Lodewijk's answer. Hello Nina, and all > If I'm honest with myself, if I was given a > > choice between liberation from > > samsara and a day off with lots of suttas to read and a pot of herbal tea > > and quiet in the house > > and sunshine filling the room I would probably choose the latter! > N: Yes, this is very sincere. Phil: I remembered this comment of mind during the day at one point, and realized that although I had said it in a joking way it contrains a *very* important truth for me. Do I truly understand the First Noble Truth? I skip over that one quickly. Of course I understand suffering, I think. But I realized - again - that the purpose of my Dhamma study at this point, if I am honest with myself, is not to seek liberation from samsara. I want life to be more pleasant, more enjoyable, in a refined way. I want to be more patient and generous and helpful to people through cultivation of the Brahma-Viharas, but there is most definitely an interest in self-image, still the desire to be considered a wise man someday. Never the desire to be liberated from samsara, to reach Nibbana. Never a thought of Nibbana, never a single aspiration towards Nibanna. I want more experience of the senses, more rebirth in the human realm, albeit it in a more refined way. That is still hiding behind all my talk of eradicating defilements. > I discussed your mail with Lodewijk (for those > who do not know: my husband) at the dinner table. He said that he is > satisfied with a step by step gradual progress, quite happy with a few > crumbs of knowledge and understanding. Of course without losing sight of the > eventual aim nibbana, how far away it may be. Phil: Please give my best wishes to Lodewijk. I'm glad to hear that the trip was invigorating for his health. (I think that's what you said.) I would say I am satisfied with my progress now. At least I know that I don't really understand the First Noble Truth yet. That's progress. > In India I was reading aloud to him the satipatthana sutta at the place > where the Buddha preached this sutta: in Kuru. This place was a heap of dirt > and public toilet before, but our friend S.K. Singh, former secretary of > foreign affairs, had it restored and fenced in. We were up on the rocks > sitting near the stone with Ashoka's inscription. Lodewijk said by hearing > this sutta he came to the conclusion that without insight and understanding > of the present moment no progress is possible. He said that the perfections > cannot be developed without satipatthana, no metta without satipatthana. He > finds the perfection of truthfulness most essential. We deceive ourselves > all the time. We take for kusala what is akusala, we do not notice clinging > to self, or conceit. We have to understand the present moment. I said to > him: people will ask how this is developed. He answered: it is of no use to > ask too many questions or debate about it. Develop it, it will grow by its > own conditions. If we ask: how, how, it shows our clinging and this hinders. Phil: This is like the carpenter's adze(?) handle, isn't it? Knowledge of our progress will arise in daily life (the using of the carpenter's tool) in a very subtle way. The carpenter doesn't stand back and look at the handle of the tool and decide how much it has worn away. He comes to know as he's using it that something has changed. Very subtle. I remember when I read your book on perfections that the perfection of truthfulness was the one I felt that I understood least. It felt like it was just a rewording of the perfection of wisdom. But now because of my and your post I understood a little more what it's about. I remember that when I re-read the book I made a note in the margin intending to ask you about it, but as usual I never got around to it. Maybe I sensed that the answer would arise on its own, due to conditions. Of course there are times when it's best to ask questions right away as well. Metta, Phil p.s I will ask one now. A few months ago you made mention of a term that refers to postponing one's understanding (my paraphrase) about not pressing too hard to find answers when the understanding hasn't arisen yet. It was in the context of something that is taught to monks within the Vinaya (sp?) or the commentary on it. Does that ring a bell? Thanks in advance. 38250 From: robmoult Date: Sat Nov 13, 2004 3:29pm Subject: Eightfold Noble Path for Teens Hi All (especially James), I have completed my first draft of my "Eightfold Noble Path for Teens" and uploaded it into the Files Section of DSG. I used a number of advanced PowerPoint features, so it may not work the same way on your computer as it does on mine. When I showed it to my 12-year old son, he said, "Daddy, you're not teaching Dhamma, you just want to show off your PowerPoint skills!" I am really indepted to James for giving me ideas on how to present this material for a younger audience. I used almost all of the ideas he provided (James, the audience are Chinese-educated and will not have read Hamlet... and I don't know enough about classical Chinese literature to draw examples). I am going to do a "dry run" with my Abhidhamma class this morning (many of them have teenage children). The actual talk with the teens is not until Tuesday night, so I would appreciate any feedback by then. As background, the teens are participating in a Novitiate programme; living like a monk for a week and attending dhamma talks every day (the boys even have their heads shaved). I decided against a workshop format because: - Limited time (90 minutes) - Range of ages of kids (12 - 18) make sharing difficult - No way that I could control 50 kids by myself Metta, Rob M :-) 38251 From: Date: Sat Nov 13, 2004 10:55am Subject: Re: [dsg] Eightfold Noble Path for Teens Hi, Rob (and James) - I just took some time before going out for the evening to look at your power-point presentation. (I've only gone partly through it.) It's wonderful - it's brilliant!! SADHU!!! With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 38252 From: robmoult Date: Sat Nov 13, 2004 4:01pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Eightfold Noble Path for Teens Hi Howard, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Rob (and James) - > > I just took some time before going out for the evening to look at your > power-point presentation. (I've only gone partly through it.) It's wonderful > - it's brilliant!! SADHU!!! I think that James and I make a great team; his content with my PowerPoint skills :-) By way of self-criticism, I think that I need to add in a slide in the "Right Effort" section to define what is "Good" and what is "Bad" according to Buddhism (i.e. roots). Looking forward to any other suggestions for improvement! Metta, Rob M :-) 38253 From: Date: Sat Nov 13, 2004 2:02pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Eightfold Noble Path for Teens Hi, Rob - In a message dated 11/13/04 7:02:37 PM Eastern Standard Time, rob.moult@j... writes: > > Hi Howard, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > >Hi, Rob (and James) - > > > > I just took some time before going out for the evening to > look at your > >power-point presentation. (I've only gone partly through it.) It's > wonderful > >- it's brilliant!! SADHU!!! > > I think that James and I make a great team; his content with my > PowerPoint skills :-) > > By way of self-criticism, I think that I need to add in a slide in > the "Right Effort" section to define what is "Good" and what > is "Bad" according to Buddhism (i.e. roots). > ---------------------------------------- Howard: Yes, I think that's a good idea. BTW, there is a typo on slide 32: You have "Payful puppy" imstead of "Playful puppy". ---------------------------------------- > > Looking forward to any other suggestions for improvement! > > Metta, > Rob M :-) > ====================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 38254 From: robmoult Date: Sat Nov 13, 2004 7:13pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Eightfold Noble Path for Teens Hi Howard, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > BTW, there is a typo on slide 32: You > have "Payful puppy" imstead of "Playful puppy". Good catch... I also noticed that I alternate between "Noble Eightfold Path" (correct) and "Eightfold Noble Path" (incorrect). I am also going to mention on my summary of right thoughts slide that these three right thoughts lead one to a happy rebirth. Looking forward to other points. Metta, Rob M :-) 38255 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sat Nov 13, 2004 7:31pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Eightfold Noble Path for Teens Hello Rob, Does one need to have any special software in order read the presentation? I have downloaded it but I can't seem to open it. Wordpad doesn't work. Any suggestions? metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" wrote: > > Hi Howard, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > > BTW, there is a typo on slide 32: You > > have "Payful puppy" imstead of "Playful puppy". > > Good catch... I also noticed that I alternate between "Noble > Eightfold Path" (correct) and "Eightfold Noble Path" (incorrect). > > I am also going to mention on my summary of right thoughts slide > that these three right thoughts lead one to a happy rebirth. > > Looking forward to other points. > > Metta, > Rob M :-) 38256 From: robmoult Date: Sat Nov 13, 2004 7:38pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Eightfold Noble Path for Teens Hi Christine, It is PowerPoint (comes with Microsoft Office). Try double-clicking on the file. If your computer has PowerPoint installed, it will run automatically. Metta, Rob M :-) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" wrote: > > Hello Rob, > > Does one need to have any special software in order read the > presentation? > > I have downloaded it but I can't seem to open it. > Wordpad doesn't work. Any suggestions? > 38257 From: robmoult Date: Sat Nov 13, 2004 8:02pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Eightfold Noble Path for Teens Hi Christine, I created a .PDF version that you can read using free Acrobat reader software (you don't need PowerPoint). You don't get to see the great special effects, but the content is there. It is a big file, so I won't leave it there for long. Hope this helps. Metta, Rob M :-) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" wrote: > > Hi Christine, > > It is PowerPoint (comes with Microsoft Office). Try double- clicking > on the file. If your computer has PowerPoint installed, it will run > automatically. > > Metta, > Rob M :-) > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" > wrote: > > > > Hello Rob, > > > > Does one need to have any special software in order read the > > presentation? > > > > I have downloaded it but I can't seem to open it. > > Wordpad doesn't work. Any suggestions? > > 38258 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sat Nov 13, 2004 8:50pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Eightfold Noble Path for Teens Hello Rob, Perhaps I should let it be - I've tried to download the new file and I get a blank page with this address at the top in the Address line: http://f5.grp.yahoofs.com/v1/QNiWQVulfkkqGNBa0L1BGCJj46YeNv_3m3AafsD1 xvR8xzivl0_bPHptOs-GvOd3ESfdsGarpW7tpmQwdBRUvIXyLbsZEkCXy3cuzunBpg/z% 20-%20Noble%208fold%20Path.pdf Down the foot of the page it says Unknown Zone and shows a picture of a little computer with a red downward arrow and the word "Done". But nothing appears. Maybe I should download Acrobat 6 again. I'll try that and see what happens.Thanks for your kind efforts, Rob, I wish I was a little more expert with computers. metta, Chris --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" wrote: > > Hi Christine, > > I created a .PDF version that you can read using free Acrobat reader > software (you don't need PowerPoint). You don't get to see the great > special effects, but the content is there. It is a big file, so I > won't leave it there for long. > > Hope this helps. > > Metta, > Rob M :-) > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" > wrote: > > > > Hi Christine, > > > > It is PowerPoint (comes with Microsoft Office). Try double- > clicking > > on the file. If your computer has PowerPoint installed, it will > run > > automatically. > > > > Metta, > > Rob M :-) > > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" > > wrote: > > > > > > Hello Rob, > > > > > > Does one need to have any special software in order read the > > > presentation? > > > > > > I have downloaded it but I can't seem to open it. > > > Wordpad doesn't work. Any suggestions? > > > 38259 From: buddhatrue Date: Sat Nov 13, 2004 10:00pm Subject: Re: Eightfold Noble Path for Teens --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" wrote: > > Hi All (especially James), > > I have completed my first draft of my "Eightfold Noble Path for > Teens" and uploaded it into the Files Section of DSG. > Friend Rob M., Wow! Now that is one razzle dazzle presentation! I am impressed by your Power Point skills! It is very professional and entertaining (Christine, you just have to see it! ;-)). I especially like how you handled the path factor of mindfulness. Your example of the rose is much better than my silly gum ball analogy! ;-) And the picture of the baby appearing to meditate is very cute! Some suggestions: The bright pink header in the Right Thought section (don't know the slide number) reads "Right Understanding" when it should read "Right Thought". It is where Right Thought is defined as Renunciation, Good Will, and Harmlessness with bright pink arrows (just gotta love those graphics! ;-). You defined sexual misconduct as "No Premarital Sex /No Adultery". I seriously question the "No Premarital Sex" because that isn't what the Buddha defined as sexual misconduct. Sex between consenting adults, even when unmarried, is acceptable. I suspect that you are trying to tell them that teenagers shouldn't have sex, because they are still under the protection of their parents, but you should say it that way. Honesty is important. And the stupa analogy at the end is very confusing. I believe that you are trying to get into advanced dhamma with those slides and there hasn't been enough lead in. You may leave the kids confused at the end and then their confidence in what they just learned will be lessened. Just a suggestion. Overall, a very excellent job! I am glad that I had the opportunity to help you some with it. Metta, James 38260 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sat Nov 13, 2004 11:13pm Subject: Re: Eightfold Noble Path for Teens Hello James (Rob), --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote> > Friend Rob M., > > Wow! Now that is one razzle dazzle presentation! I am impressed by > your Power Point skills! It is very professional and entertaining > (Christine, you just have to see it! ;-)). I especially like how > you handled the path factor of mindfulness. Your example of the > rose is much better than my silly gum ball analogy! ;-) And the > picture of the baby appearing to meditate is very cute! > Groan!! I've been trying to do that all afternoon. What program do I need to view it? I'm happy to buy something to see the power point version. Just have to know what and where to get it. So far I've got to the Support area of Acrobat to try to find out what to do when there is an Error "The download cannot continue. Error parsing voucher" occurs when you double-click a PDF File (Windows). I'll persevere with what they are suggesting - but for some reason they think I'll be able to keep the Adobe Download Manager under control. metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- 38261 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Nov 13, 2004 11:14pm Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 48 - Feeling/Vedana (u) Dear Friends, Cetasikas by Nina van Gorkom. http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch.2 Feeling (Vedana) contd] ***** There are many different kinds of feeling and therefore we should not imagine that it is easy to recognize feelings. When we study the Abhidhamma we realize better what we do not know. It is difficult to distinguish painful bodily feeling from rúpa, or from domanassa. When we have pain, we ‘feel’ that something is hurting and we may think that it is easy to discern bodily painful feeling. However, we may not be able to distinguish the painful feeling which is nåma from the rúpa which is impinging on the body-sense. We are usually thinking of the spot which is hurt and then we are thinking of a concept. The thinking is a reality which can be known when it appears, the concept is not a reality. It is important to know the difference between ultimate realities and concepts. A precise knowledge of the different nåmas and rúpas which arise each because of their own conditions will help us to be less deluded about our life. ****** [Feeling(Vedana) to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 38262 From: Sukinderpal Singh Narula Date: Sat Nov 13, 2004 11:16pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Sarah: "One path" Dear Dan, > Sukin: It doesn't make sense to me that we would have had any insight into > anatta without first hearing about the Teachings. Dan: It is entirely possible for people to have enough insight into anatta to develop a strong sense of detachment to Self without ever having heard a whisper of Buddha's words. I think many of us have met such people. Also, we would all agree that it is possible to learn how to discuss "anatta" with great facility and demonstrate great command of Buddhist words and arguments but still be very attached to Self. Sukin: The goal of Dhamma practice is the eradication of lobha at all levels. However this is a process which takes a long time and must happen in stages, beginning with Right View. So as far as I am concerned, `attachment to self' is not the focus of attention, though it is quite important to detect this in oneself. However since Right View is where one starts, it is more important to consider this and allow for the fact that in the beginning, the understanding might only be conceptual. It is only with practice that moments of attachment to self will be gradually understood. ------------------------------------- Dan: Which has the deeper understanding? The one who has developed a high degree of detachment to Self, yet not studied the Buddha's words; or the one who has studied the Buddha's words extensively but is strongly attached to Self? Which is more important? Understanding reality, or understanding words? There is a striking distinction between them. Sukin: Obviously, patipatti is accompanied with panna of a higher level than pariyatti and the goal is pativedha. And reading, memorizing or even seeing some logical relations between different concepts may not be pariyatti at all. However when it *is* pariyatti, then the most basic building block is indeed being laid, without which the other two levels cannot be conditioned to arise. And when the latter have been experienced to any degree, then `theory' too will be understood more deeply. But again I repeat; only Buddhas could have patipatti and pativedha without first hearing the Teachings in any particular lifetime. ---------------------------------------- > Sukin: conditioned namas and rupas. You could ask your "selfless friends" who > have not heard the Buddha's teachings, what they thought about anatta. > I am quite certain that they would not readily accept it. And this would > indicate that indeed their experiences were *not* satipatthana. Dan: It would? Are you sure? Sukin: Of course I am never sure about anything, and whatever I state is just personal opinion. But I have stated some reasons for this, which may not be enough to convince you. And I can't state all the reasons because not everything comes to mind and not every understanding can be expressed. But I am open to any arguments from you or anyone which might disprove my position. I would like to try at this point, to express what I think your basic premise is when you state about someone relying on `speculation', and comment on it. In conventional matters, I think it is right that without experience, if we were to state something to be the case, then it is speculation. But I don't think this applies to the matter of understanding anything, esp. with regard to Dhamma. The function of panna is not `experience', and information about past experience is not what panna at this moment is being based upon. Panna is developed upon accumulated panna as sankhara and sati is one proximate cause. The actual moment of panna arising is very short but this is distinctly different from `thinking'. Thinking can be with or without panna, but when it is, this is not speculation, and in fact if subsequent moments are just `parroting' of theory, this may still not be `speculating'. There is no reason why panna cannot have concepts as object and it makes sense that in the beginning this must be the case. It has to start from somewhere and in development the very same concept is better and better understood even without any direct experience. Let us take for example the statement that, "All is Dhamma". At a beginner level, someone might understand this to be the case while thinking about his experiences. On the other hand another person may not like the idea at all but instead, while taking for real people and things, prefers to think all this to be the manifestation of God or something. Another person may have a better understanding about conditions and immediately understands in principle, that the statement applies to what ever dhamma that is being experienced in the present moment as against another, who might still think philosophically but fail because of relative weaker panna, to think in terms of the present moment. The former will whenever he considers the moment only `think' about it and not really know the characteristic of dhammas. Yet these two only understand anything conceptually but "understand" they do! And I do except that moments when panna arises may be very far apart and the rest of the time it may be just at best parroting and at worse mistaking theoretical knowledge for understanding. You are saying however in this matter, that indeed if they understand the concepts right, then it must be because they previously had direct experience. I don't think so. And it is according to this same theory that I don't believe that people of other religions could have satipatthana. --------------------------- Dan: It seems that you are confusing concept and reality here. Understanding reality is quite different from understanding what someone is referring to when they describe reality. Sukin: No I don't think I am confusing the two, though I do admit that this distinction is understood by me only `conceptually'. ;-) --------------------------- > Sukin: So elsewhere when you said that `sammaditthi arises with jhana', I > don't think this is right. Jhana practice does require deep wisdom, but > this wisdom is of quite a different kind to vipassana panna. The former > may support the latter, but does not lead to it. Dan: I believe it is just standard Theravada dogma that sammaditthi arises with jhana. If I'm wrong about this, that's fine. Sukin: If you are wrong, in which way? I think this is quite crucial to know. The panna of jhana may indeed be referred to as samma ditthi. However like samma samadhi of this corresponding level, it is quite different from the sammas of the 8FP. As I stated in my last post, the object is different and one does not lead to the other. Dan, if your reply fails to convince me, I think I will bow out of this discussion. It has conditioned much papanca and speculation which I think to be not so useful. But I will continue to read your comments to others with an open mind. Metta, Sukin. 38263 From: buddhatrue Date: Sun Nov 14, 2004 0:24am Subject: Re: Eightfold Noble Path for Teens --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" wrote: > > Hello James (Rob), Groan!! I've been trying to do that all afternoon. > What program do I need to view it? I'm happy to buy something to > see the power point version. Just have to know what and where to > get it. > Friend Christine, Sorry you are having such trouble. You don't need to buy anything though. You just need to download the PowerPoint Viewer from the Microsoft web site. It is free and doesn't take that long to download. You can find it at this link: http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?FamilyID=7c404e8e- 5513-46c4-aa4f- 058a84a37df1&DisplayLang=en&DPC=&DarwinProductCodeDCC=&AppName=&HelpL CID=1033&path=10%2Fpptviewer%2Easp If this doesn't work, send me an e-mail, so I can get your e-mail and I will e-mail the viewer to you. buddhatrue@y... Metta, James 38264 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Nov 14, 2004 0:25am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sarah: "One path" Dear Bhante Vimalaramsi, --- Bhante Vimalaramsi wrote: > > Dhamma Greetings Sarah, > > Because my Buddha-Dhamma is grounded in the practical (experiential) > approach not theoretical approach ( theories can change to easily, but > when one has a direct experience they know exactly for themselves so the > experiential experience has the saddha that the Buddha was talking about > in it), how does one overcome the knee-jerk reactions? .... I'm wondering if you had intended this post (and the rest of it) to Phil or Htoo who were discussing knee-jerk reactions? If so, I'd rather leave it to them to respond. If it really was meant to be addressed to me, I'll thank you and take another look. Perhaps you'd kindly clarify. Thank you for all your contributions. Metta, Sarah ======= 38265 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Nov 14, 2004 0:56am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vis. XIV, 112, 113 Hi Larry, op 13-11-2004 01:34 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > I'm a little skeptical that rebirth linking and dying consciousnesses > actually do anything. They just seem to be the first and last bhavanga > consciousness. The real rebirth linking and dying consciousness seems to > me is the last javana consciousnesses. N: As Htoo rwote to you: N: It is right what you said:< They just seem to be the first and last bhavanga consciousness.> Let me add something. There has to be a first citta of our life and a last citta, that is all. And so long as the latent tendencies, anusayas, have not been eradicated, we are in the cycle of birth and death. The last citta of this life has to be succeeded by the first citta of the next life, without interruption. This is conditioned by way of contiguity-condition, anantara-paccaya. In between the rebirth consciousness and the dying consciousnesses of one life there are all the happiness (sukha) and unhappiness dukkha) we experience. mostly with akusala cittas, but there can also be kusala citta and the development of pañña. The first javana-cittas in the life of any living being are cittas rooted in clinging. We cling to life. Through the development of insight we shall better understand the meaning of the rebirth consciousness and the dying consciousness. It will be clearer that the dying consciousnesses has to be succeeded by the rebirth consciousness of the next life. Each citta arises and falls away and is succeeded by a next citta. We know this in theory, but through insight there can be direct understanding. The arising and falling away of realities can only be realized after there is direct understanding of nama as different from rupa, direct understanding of nama and rupa as conditioned dhammas. Through the understanding of the dhamma appearing at the present moment, the Dependent Origination can be understood. Nina. 38266 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Nov 14, 2004 0:56am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Vis. XIV, 111, and Tiika, corrected. Dear Azita, op 12-11-2004 13:37 schreef gazita2002 op gazita2002@y...: > Did you enjoy your stay in Pelling, Nina? N: It was a very good rest, but not suitable for day hikes, too much traffic. But I went through all my tapes and made notes. How about your tapes?? Anything to discuss? A: I have just read the Dhatuvibhanga Sutta, where the Buddha is > talking to Pukkusati. According to notes on this Sutta, Pukkusati had > already achieved 4th jhana and had a strong attachment to it. (snip, snip) > > Earlier in the notes, it says that Pukkusati had already > purified the preliminary practice of the path ....what does this > mean?........and was able to attain the 4th jhana thro mindfulness of > breathing. N: The Buddha knew his disposition. He was ripe to attain the state of non-returner. The non-returner has eradicated attachment to sense objects. He had accumulated conditions for jhana and cultivated jhanas. That was his preliminary practice. He lived as an ascetical. A: Then the Buddha began to talk on insight meditation, expounding > the ultimate voidness that is the foundation for arahantship. > "That which you perceive as a person consists of 6 elements. > Ultimately ther is no person here. 'Person' is a mere concept". N: We read in the Co that Pukusati attained the state of anagaamii (non-returner) and after he had been killed by a calf he was reborn in the Pure Abode Aviha, and attained arahatship there. > > Azita: I never thought of the jhanas as being 'dangerous', but can > see in what sense they might be. If no insight into the ultimate > truth of realities, one may take jhana for self and spend literally > aeons and aeons in planes where no dhamma is able to be heard; no > ears for listening!!!!!! N: In the arupa-brahma planes there is no rupa, and in order to develop the stages of insight and attain the first one: knowing the difference between nama and rupa, one has to be in a plane where there are nama and rupa. Also before the Buddha's time people developed jhana, but the Buddha explained that also jhanacitta should be realized as non-self. Whenever we read in the suttas about jhana, we have to remember that satipatthana (or vipassana) is always implied. Calm and insight should go together, and the Visuddhimagga which quotes many suttas is no exception. The Vis. quotes: who is concentrated knows realities as they really are. When insight is more developed there are conditions for more calm, but we should not aim for this. Right understanding should be emphasized. Not everyone is able to develop jhana and it should not be made into a rule that this is a must. The Buddha had great compassion and took into account the different dispositions of individuals who were able to be led to enlightenment. Pukusati had a different disposition then the disposition of busy laypeople like us. Yes, clinging to jhana is dangerous. Jhana in itself is a high degree of kusala. Those who had accumulated the right conditions and really saw the danger of sense pleasures, could develop it. Strong mindfulness and pañña are necessary for its development. In order to abandon vitakka, thinking of the meditation subject, and reach the following stage of jhana one has to be aware of exactly this cetasika, and so on for the following cetasikas that are to be abandoned. When someone is clinging to the idea of jhana, he may believe that he attains jhana, but in reality it is the wrong jhana. Some kind of trance he takes for jhana. That is why the third application of mindfulness, seeing citta in citta, no self in citta, is important. The first citta mentioned here is citta with raga, attachment. Also jhanacitta is mentioned. All kusala cittas and akusala cittas have to be known as they are. We should not ignore akusala cittas but know them as conditioned realities. They arise naturally in our daily life, and every reality that arises naturally can be object of mindfulness and understanding. Nina. 38267 From: jwromeijn Date: Sun Nov 14, 2004 1:17am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sarah: "One path" About vipassana and jhana --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Bhante Vimalaramsi wrote: > Dhamma Greetings Joop, > > I wrote a long email and have just realized that I didn't answer all of your questions. So I'm writing this to complete this answer. ... Bhante Thanks for the information you gave about the 'vipassana only' opinion on the Mahasi-method you gave in your two messages (# 38214 and # 38219) on my request. .It is very helpful, I think: I don't know so quick what to do with it because I don't want to leave my vipassana teachers now and I'm not sure if (jhanic) experimenting on myself at home will be very wise. But first I will read the suttas the way you said. And I will read the articles on your website (even one in dutch) What you said about the Visuddhi Magga; well perhaps you have seen I participated in a discussion about Buddhaghosa in the Forum, not very fruitful, I think; so now I will only say: this kind of texts don't fit with my personality, I prefer to read more vivid and less scholarly ones. So again: many thanks, also on what you said about loving kindness. And much metta to you Joop 38268 From: antony272b2 Date: Sun Nov 14, 2004 1:39am Subject: Re: Eightfold Noble Path for Teens Dear Christine, Have you downloaded PDFs before? Clicking on them doesn't download but gives a blank screen. You have to right click and select "Save Target as" I hope this helps / Antony. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" So far I've got to the Support area of Acrobat to try to find out > what to do when there is an Error "The download cannot continue. > Error parsing voucher" occurs when you double-click a PDF File > (Windows). I'll persevere with what they are suggesting - but for > some reason they think I'll be able to keep the Adobe Download > Manager under control. > 38269 From: antony272b2 Date: Sun Nov 14, 2004 1:56am Subject: Re: Eightfold Noble Path for Teens Dear Rob M, Good effort! Can I have permission please to post the PDF in the files section of eightfold-l list? Thanks / Antony. 38271 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Nov 14, 2004 2:30am Subject: error message Oops, I just sent (and deleted from the archives) a dsg-housekeeping message to Jon. Pls ignore it if you receive mail in your in-box. Sarah 38272 From: robmoult Date: Sun Nov 14, 2004 3:08am Subject: Re: Eightfold Noble Path for Teens Hi James, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: > Some suggestions: The bright pink header in the Right Thought > section (don't know the slide number) reads "Right Understanding" > when it should read "Right Thought". It is where Right Thought is > defined as Renunciation, Good Will, and Harmlessness with bright > pink arrows (just gotta love those graphics! ;-). ===== When I wrote it, I had intended it to be Right Understanding as the question was, "What types of thoughts arise naturally from Right Understanding?". However, after reading your message, I think that I will change it to "Right Thought". ===== > > You defined sexual misconduct as "No Premarital Sex /No Adultery". > I seriously question the "No Premarital Sex" because that isn't what > the Buddha defined as sexual misconduct. Sex between consenting > adults, even when unmarried, is acceptable. I suspect that you are > trying to tell them that teenagers shouldn't have sex, because they > are still under the protection of their parents, but you should say > it that way. Honesty is important. ===== I had a real hard time with that one. I imagined some twelve-year old kid who had led a very sheltered life (not too many street-wise boys would shave their heads and live like a monk for a week) in the audience. I really didn't want some parent yelling at me, asking me what kinds of ideas I had put into their child's head. The situation would be even worse for little girls (about a third of the novitiates are girls; they don't shave their heads). I think what I will do is to delete the reference to premarital sex and just leave in "No Adultery" (technically factual, but not 100% complete). I plan to skip over this point really quickly. ===== > > And the stupa analogy at the end is very confusing. I believe that > you are trying to get into advanced dhamma with those slides and > there hasn't been enough lead in. You may leave the kids confused > at the end and then their confidence in what they just learned will > be lessened. Just a suggestion. ===== Actually, what I am presenting is not an analogy, but rather the actual symbolic meaning behind Stupa construction. I wanted to make the point that the Wisdom path factors come before the Sila factors and after the Concentration factors. To emphasize the point, perhaps I will also show it as spokes of a wheel (two Wisdom spokes before the three Discipline spokes and after the three Concentration spokes). ===== > > Overall, a very excellent job! I am glad that I had the opportunity > to help you some with it. ===== As I said, I think that we make an excellent team! Metta, Rob M :-) 38273 From: robmoult Date: Sun Nov 14, 2004 3:11am Subject: Re: Eightfold Noble Path for Teens Hi Anthony, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "antony272b2" wrote: > Can I have permission please to post the PDF in the files section of > eightfold-l list? I would be honoured to have it posted there. At the moment, it is still "work in progress"; I will upload the final version on Wednesday. Metta, Rob M :-) 38274 From: plnao Date: Sun Nov 14, 2004 3:19am Subject: Re: [dsg] 'Cetasikas' study corner 48 - Feeling/Vedana (u) Hello all > There are many different kinds of feeling and therefore we > should not imagine that it is easy to recognize feelings. But would you agree that as cetasikas go, feelings are the ones that we are most likely to recognize? > When we study the Abhidhamma we realize better what we do not know. And knowing what we don't know is very liberating. It points at processes that our beyond control of self. > It is difficult to distinguish painful bodily feeling from rúpa, or from > domanassa. When we have pain, we 'feel' that something is hurting > and we may think that it is easy to discern bodily painful feeling. > However, we may not be able to distinguish the painful feeling > which is nåma from the rúpa which is impinging on the body-sense. Hmm. I don't get this yet. "Rupa is impinging on the body-sense." Let's say a thorn sticking in my toe. There is rupa (the thorn) and nama (the painful feeling.) No, I must say I can't imagine how it would be possible in this case to be aware of the rupa without the painful feeling. Does the painful feeling kind of drown out sense of the rupa? Is the rupa sensed as hardness, or temperature? Any other way? If it is visible object, the rupa (visible object) can be seen, is seen, before feeling arises from it. Is a thorn felt by body sense in some way before the painful feeling arises? I'm confused. There is the simile of the cotton puff on the anvil. In the case of the other 5 sense doors, it is like a cotton puff landing on a cotton puff. But in the case of body sense, it is like a hammer coming down on the cotton puff, because.... ....just now Naomi came in and wanted to talk about something. I told her I was trying to figure out something difficult. About what? About body sense. She put her hands on my arms, fingers pressing down, and said "body sense." I said "make it painful!" and she pinched a bit. And then she bit my ear!!!! Well, we had a laugh, but I don't think it helped much. It *was* easier to be aware of her fingers as hardness when she was pushing than it was when she was pinching. Then the pain (don't worry, just slight) dominated my attention. And then, though she hasn't studied Abhidhamma, she said "don't forget heat!" And I said "it's temperature!" And she pressed a soft part of her body against me and said "soft" And I said "no, it's hardness!" Anyways, I am still confused. It's natural to be confused about this sort of thing. Metta, Phil 38275 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Nov 14, 2004 3:33am Subject: Re: Khanti is viriya (was Re: [dsg] India reflections) Dear Phil --- plnao wrote: Welcome back, Jon. Jon: Thanks, Phil. Good to be back. Phil: I enjoyed reading your post with its helpful reminders. I'll just take up one point and trust that others will bring up different points >khanti (patience) is the mental factor viriya (energy, effort) about which >there is so much said on this list. When I heard this I was reminded that >effort has 4 aspects (described as the 4 padhaanas) including the >forbearing from akusala that has not arisen and the non-persisting of >akusala that has risen, and I see a connection here. This is very interesting to me because I am keen on both the padhanas and the Perfections. This afternoon, I read the AN IV 14 description of the padhaana of abandoning akusala that has arisen: "There is a the case where a monk does not acquiesce to a thought of sensuality that has arisen (in him.) He abandons it, destroys it, dispels it, wipes it out of existence...." Same for ill-will, etc. I have always wondered about the rather muscular language used in this translation. (And I guess in the original as well.) I assume that there is a progression from "does not acquiesce" to "wipes it out of existence" depending on the accumulations of the monk in question, or the degree of the akusala, or something. Jon: The description of the 4 padhaanas is another instance of a teaching about dhammas being given in conventional language appropriate to the (advanced) level of understanding of the listener. (thus giving rise to the idea of some of an *apparent* difference between the suttas and the abhidhamma -- even more so here than in the case of phassa that has been so much discussed on the list of late). As I understand it, when right effort arises there is at that moment no akusala, and so for that instant any already/previously arisen akusala has been abandoned, and any akusala that might otherwise arise (i.e. unarisen akusala) does not. The problem with ascribing (as some do) a conventional meaning to effort in arousing kusala where there is presently none is that it would imply either (a) that conventional effort that is akusala may support the arising of kusala, or (b) that the conventional effort itself is kusala which would mean that kusala can be made to arise by determining it to be so. Neither of these alternatives would be consistent with what is said elsewhere in the teachings, especially the teaching on anicca-dukkha-anatta. Phil: It seems to me that it would be preferable to be patient with the akusala, see it for what it is (not-self) and let it fall away on its own, as all cittas do. Be patient, but still having energy to investigate it without acquiescing to it, without welcoming it. Patient, energetic investigation of the dhamma involved. Patience not to flee from akusala into more akusala (For example, not fleeing from an unpleasant situation by escaping into fantasies about pleasures to come.) Patiently examining the akusala dhammas with right energy, seeing them as annica, anatta and dukkha to the degree that we are capable of. Jon: We should be wary of any idea creeping in that akusala in particular needs to be the object of awareness because it needs to be dealt with and awareness is a means of achieving that. The aim is just the better understanding of dhammas, meaning of course any presently arisen dhamma. We are all inclined to see ‘our akusala’ as the enemy, but this is just another instance of the subtlety of wrong view, as I see it. Phil: And then if they persist, there would be need for a more rigorous approach. A less patient approach. I have trouble seeing "wipes it out of existence" as patience! Jon: The more persistent the kilesa, the more patience is needed! Regards Jon 38276 From: plnao Date: Sun Nov 14, 2004 4:40am Subject: Re: [dsg] two viewings of anatta Hi Larry, and all > You raise an interesting question: what is the difference between > detachment (alobha) and insight (pa~n~na). It's really interesting, isn't it? These days it seems to me that yoniso manasikaara is coming up all the time in suttas that I respond to. It seems to me from what I'm understanding these days that it is at the arising of manasikaara that there is the pivotal moment. When we have wise attention to the attractive object, we do not get swept away in lobha proliferation (can that be said) and if there is wise attention to the unpleasant object, we do not get swept away in dosa cittas. It is yoniko manasikaara that stops proliferation, and panna that... I see in CMA that "the proximate cause is wise attention." Is yoniso manasikaara like the hand that picks up an object and panna the gaze that sees into what the object is? And sati the not-forgetting that this is going on? And alobha results when yoniso manasikaara, panna and sati see into a moment and give rise to non-proliferation? Is detachment non-proliferation? There are so many suttas I come across these days that get at the same thing....the broken gong....the mind doesn't leap up....the mind is resilient to sights....the monk stops at seeing...and others, all getting at that moment when proliferation doesn't happen. I have learned that the flavour of Abhidhamma is anatta. It feels to me these days that the flavour of the Suttanta is non-proliferation! Perhaps we all have accumulations that lead us to tune into differents aspects of the Suttanta. >First, to address a > possible misconception, there can be the case where one can regard an > object with the idea "this is not me because I am something else". > For example, I can look at an unpleasant feeling with the idea I am > not this feeling because I am the unfeeling but intelligent > consciousness looking at the feeling. There is obviously > misunderstanding here. Well said. I can imagine having the idea you describe here. Is that "intelligent consciousness" panna? No. But I can relate to having thought that. Walking around when I was in a clear, calm state of mind, and feeling rather godlike about it, though I thought about anatta. Imagining that to be detachment when it was obviously self at work, feeling pleased about being so divinely detached. > True detachment would simply regard the feeling without any > additional baggage. I guess we can only speculate about what true detachment would be like. Maybe it wouldn't regard the feeling at all? Arahats have vipaka, but they do not create new kamma in response to that. Do they regard feelings or are their processes so refined that feelings don't arise. I know there is painful body sense for them, as vipaka, but the second dart, the mental consideration, doesn't happen, right? So the lack of "additional baggage" would be the lack of mental door processes following vipaka? The "broken gong" that doesn't ring in response to stimulus, the mind that doesn't proliferate? > and what I called non-relational insight is one of superficiality and > depth. Insight is a compulsion* to thoroughly investigate. It wants > to get at the real feeling in the feeling, this one right now. It > wants to know it for what it is, thoroughly and completely as it is. > While detachment is not particularly interested. "The compulsion to thoroughly investigate" is something that I have noticed Howard and you and others have. I appreciate it because I don't have it myself. I seem so happy to let things fall easily. So I would say that the above is too complex again. "The real feeling in the feeling." Mean the paramattha dhamma vs. the concept, the feeling vs the thinking about the feeling? "Detachment is not particularly interested." Willing to let it go. Well, I am still wondering about detachment being a moment in the citta process, the moment that the mind *does not*proliferate. But that is incorrect speculation, because as you say detachment is alobha, and alobha is a universal sobhana cetasika that arises with all wholesome cittas. It is not a stage in a process. Thanks for letting me think out loud here. >There is clearly a > difference in experience here, but the most important aspect of this > is that insight is able to dismantle reactive habits (accumulations) As above, it seems to me that it is yoniso manasikaara that is more immediately effective in this sense. When there is wise attention to an unpleasant object, for example, we do not accumulate more dosa as a result of it. But I am only just beginning to understand what yoniso mansaikaara is. I look forward to the chapter about it in "Cetasikas." > and, if it is penetrating enough, similar reactions will not arise > again. Would this only be after sotapanna or further stages of enlightenment? >Detachment, by itself, cannot do this, but if it is repeated > it can become a wholesome habit. Is "habit" synonymous with "accumulation?" > ps: I'm experimenting with understanding sankhara as compulsions. > What do you think? I am certainly becoming aware of the way my mind works in a compulsive way. Compulsive gets at a lack of controlling self, so it sounds like it could be a helpful concept to experiment with. Compelled by what? natural decisive support and other conditions? Metta, Phil 38277 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Nov 14, 2004 4:57am Subject: Re: [dsg] India reflections Hi, Mike --- "m. nease" wrote: > > Hi Jon, > > And welcome back. When you wrote: > ... > "The importance of there being *right* understanding, no matter how > infrequent or weak it may be (rather than striving to have something > that > is not, and cannot be, right understanding)." > > were you referring to sammaadi.t.thi in the sense exclusively either of > satipa.t.thaana or of maggacitta with only paramattha dhammas as > objects? Thanks, Mike. Good to be back. I would include intellectual right understanding also. The point I was trying to make is that satipatthana is the outcome of right consideration and reflection only and cannot be the outcome of a some approximation to that. In other words, it is not how deeply things are understood at the present moment that matters, but the absence of wrong view/understanding. Cheers Jon 38278 From: Date: Sun Nov 14, 2004 0:32am Subject: Re: [dsg] error message Hi, Sarah - In a message dated 11/14/04 5:31:01 AM Eastern Standard Time, sarahprocterabbott@y... writes: > Oops, > > I just sent (and deleted from the archives) a dsg-housekeeping message to > Jon. > > Pls ignore it if you receive mail in your in-box. > > Sarah > =========================== Oh, geez! And here I studied it for a while, couldn't "get it" and thus decided it was "deep" and concluded it was likely an excerpt from a subcommentary of a commentary on a lesser known book of Abhidhamma! ;-)) With manic metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 38279 From: Date: Sun Nov 14, 2004 0:39am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Eightfold Noble Path for Teens Hi, Rob (and James) - In a message dated 11/14/04 6:08:41 AM Eastern Standard Time, rob.moult@j... writes: > > > >You defined sexual misconduct as "No Premarital Sex /No > Adultery". > >I seriously question the "No Premarital Sex" because that isn't > what > >the Buddha defined as sexual misconduct. Sex between consenting > >adults, even when unmarried, is acceptable. I suspect that you > are > >trying to tell them that teenagers shouldn't have sex, because > they > >are still under the protection of their parents, but you should > say > >it that way. Honesty is important. > > ===== > > I had a real hard time with that one. I imagined some twelve-year > old kid who had led a very sheltered life (not too many street-wise > boys would shave their heads and live like a monk for a week) in the > audience. I really didn't want some parent yelling at me, asking me > what kinds of ideas I had put into their child's head. The situation > would be even worse for little girls (about a third of the > novitiates are girls; they don't shave their heads). I think what I > will do is to delete the reference to premarital sex and just leave > in "No Adultery" (technically factual, but not 100% complete). I > plan to skip over this point really quickly. > > ============================ How about something like "Wise abstention from illegal, hurtful, or inappropriate physical relationships"? (A bit vague, but with the advantage of a degree of completeness.) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 38280 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Nov 14, 2004 7:18am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vis. XIV, 112, 113 Hi Larry, just butting in. op 13-11-2004 20:29 schreef Larry op LBIDD@w...: > Htoo: "So it is very clear > that 'next life patisandhi citta' DOES the job of linking of previous > life cuti citta and next life 1st bhavanga citta. That is why it is > called patisandhi citta." L: This makes sense. Perhaps we could say cuti citta does the job of not > continuing. N: But the last citta is succeeded by the next one (unless one is an arahat), the rebirth-consciousness. It merely is the last citta of a lifespan, no other job. L:Ordinarily this wouldn't seem like a job, but there is > something about bhavanga cittas that otherwise makes them continue. > This is part of their function, if not condition. N: Yes, bhavanga-cittas have as their function to keep the continuity in a lifespan. They arise in between processes. Otherwise we could not stay alive. L: Btw, any thoughts on what is the difference between function and > condition? They both continue. N: We have to think of 24 classes of conditions, this is most complex. Function is just the task of a particular citta. There are fourteen functions, as we have seen. recap: What function a particular citta performs is also conditioned. Take seeing: eye-door adverting-consciousness is its proximate cause. It is dependent on eye-base and visible object. When the right conditions are present, only then, it can perform its function of seeing. Take akusala javanacittas with lobha: these arise because of accumulated lobha, the latent tendency of lobha that is present in each citta and accumulated from moment to moment. It conditions the arising of lobha-mula-citta by way of pakatuppanissaya-paccaya, natural strong dependence condition. Thus lobha-mula-citta performd the function of javana in the process of cittas. Nina. 38281 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Nov 14, 2004 7:18am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Red hat revisited , Lodewijk's answer. Hello Phil, op 13-11-2004 22:54 schreef plnao op plnao@j...: (snip, snip, snip)... but there is most definitely an > interest in > self-image, still the desire to be considered a wise man someday. Never the > desire > to be liberated from samsara, to reach Nibbana. Never a thought of Nibbana, > never > a single aspiration towards Nibanna. I want more experience of the senses, > more rebirth > in the human realm, albeit it in a more refined way. > That is still hiding behind all my talk of eradicating > defilements. N: quite so. I am quite the same. That is what Lodewijk meant by the perfection of truthfulness: not pretending to be what one is not up to yet. Wisdom developed in satipatthana will lead to detachment, but that is a long process. It may seem to work for a while to overreach, but in fact sooner or later one will find out that this is not the way. I believe that a person who wants to cultivate jhana should scrutinize himself in all sincerity: is he really prepared to as the Vis. states, thus, to live practically as a monk? We should be truthful. Music is part of my life, I do not want to give it up. What we can notice is that defilements cause us trouble and that it is beneficial to develop the way leading to their eradication. Like Lodewijk, I want to know the truth about myself. I want to know my defilements, also the subtle, hidden ones, such as clinging to the idea of my kusala, my metta. BTW Lodewijk did not mean to say that there is no metta in other religions, but, metta as a perfection is purified from the idea of my metta, and as a perfection there is no expectation of anything in return. The perfections are developed along with satipatthana. We do our best to give my father the gift of music, but when he is not in the mood he says that he does not like it. All right, but it is the kusala citta that gives, no expectation. PH:.... At least I know that > I don't really understand the First Noble Truth yet. That's progress. N: It is good to know what we do not know. We can only understand intellectually that what falls away immediately is not a refuge or worth clinging to. But, first the stage of insight that realizes the impermanence of dhammas has to be reached. Otherwise we have no notion of what dukkha really is, it is merely a word for us. >>N: Develop it, it will grow by its >> own conditions. If we ask: how, how, it shows our clinging and this > hinders. > > Phil: This is like the carpenter's adze(?) handle, isn't it? N: : Yes, we do not notice its wearing away Ph: > p.s I will ask one now. A few months ago you made mention of a term that > refers to > postponing one's understanding (my paraphrase) about not pressing too hard > to find answers when > the understanding hasn't arisen yet. It was in the context of something that > is taught > to monks within the Vinaya (sp?) or the commentary on it. Does that ring a > bell? N: I can't remember. Nina. 38282 From: Bhante Vimalaramsi Date: Sun Nov 14, 2004 6:55am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Eightfold Noble Path for Teens Dhamma Greetings Rob, When I was in Asia I did many novitiate programs with teens. I found that they were really interested in the wrong sexual activity precept. I also found that they were very open to what the no sex while under the care of their parents really meant. I explained it this way. Any sexual activity that causes hurtful feelings to arise in anyone (partners, parents, etc) isn't a good thing. If one has sexual activity with someone who is in the care of their parents would those parents be happy about it? Of course not! So this would cause a sense of guilt and remorse to arise in both you and the partner you had the sexual activity with, this is Dukkha. And this guilty feeling will cloud the way you see the world, plus it can cause you to tell lies, which brakes another percept. So it is best not to have sexual activity until you are not in the care of your parents. The idea of not causing anger to arise in your parents or another families parents is a good thing, isn't it? Following this precept leads one to a happier life. Hope this is helpful. By the way what country are you in? I did most of my work with the Chinese kids in Malaysia and worked with Rev. Malinda at the Brickfields temple in Kuala Lumpur. Maha-Metta always Bhante Vimalaramsi 38283 From: Larry Date: Sun Nov 14, 2004 11:32am Subject: Re: two viewings of anatta Hi Phil, Here are a few comments. Maybe Nina will say something too, particularly about yoniso manasikaara and how it relates in an empty relationship to sati and pa~n~na. [I've snipped for easier reading] --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "plnao" wrote: > Is yoniso manasikaara like the hand that picks up an object and > panna the gaze that sees into what the object is? And sati the > not-forgetting that this is going on? > > And alobha results when yoniso manasikaara, panna and sati > see into a moment and give rise to non-proliferation? > Is detachment non-proliferation? L: I usually conceptualize sati as coming first in the sense of remembering the dhamma, before wise attention or insight. But I agree that detachment is nonproliferation insofar as desire (lobha) is the engine that drives proliferation of desire with its inevitable disappointment. > I guess we can only speculate about what true detachment would > be like. Maybe it wouldn't regard the feeling at all? Arahats have > vipaka, but they do not create new kamma in response to that. > Do they regard feelings or are their processes so refined that > feelings don't arise. I know there is painful body sense for them, > as vipaka, but the second dart, the mental consideration, doesn't > happen, right? > So the lack of "additional baggage" would be the lack of mental door > processes following vipaka? L: Arahants have functional javana cittas which are the same as kusala javanas but they don't "compel" kamma results. These arise with pleasant and neutral feelings. They also experience pleasant and unpleasant bodily feeling and of course all the neutral feelings. By "additional baggage" I meant mental proliferation (papa~nca), as you said. But kamma result and the world continue so there isn't exactly a stop, even in jhana. > "The compulsion to thoroughly investigate" is something that I have > noticed Howard and you and others have. I appreciate it because > I don't have it myself. I seem so happy to let things fall easily. > So I would say that the above is too complex again. "The real > feeling in the feeling." Mean the paramattha dhamma vs. the > concept, the feeling vs the thinking about the feeling? L: Yes. That seems to be the Abhidhamma idea, though I'm still a little skeptical about it as a "way". Maybe I'm misunderstanding. > > and, if it is penetrating enough, similar reactions will not arise > > again. > > Would this only be after sotapanna or further stages of enlightenment? L: No. I don't think so. It could be simply learning, like your experience on the train with the man apparently making the disagreeable sounds. > > >Detachment, by itself, cannot do this, but if it is repeated > > it can become a wholesome habit. > > Is "habit" synonymous with "accumulation?" L: That's how I see it, kind of like making a cognitive path. The idea of accumulating or adding together seems to contradict impermanence. We will discuss this more when we get to the "formations aggregate" in the Visuddhimagga. There is a very troublesome word there: "agglomeration". Right now I'm leaning toward interpreting this as "kamma proliferation". > > ps: I'm experimenting with understanding sankhara as compulsions. > > What do you think? > > I am certainly becoming aware of the way my mind works in a compulsive way. > Compulsive gets at a lack of controlling self, so it sounds like it could be > a helpful concept > to experiment with. Compelled by what? natural decisive support and other > conditions? > > Metta, > Phil L: Not so much compelled _by_ as compelled _to_. We could say compulsions (sankhara) arise because of habits, they compel kamma result, and are themselves habit forming. Just a thought. Larry 38284 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sun Nov 14, 2004 11:35am Subject: Re: Eightfold Noble Path for Teens Hello Anthony, Yes I have downloaded PDF's before. The problem seems to be something else. I downloaded both the msorun.exe (powerpoint viewer James gave the link for, and Rob's powerpoint file, onto my desktop and then things didn't go further. It may be that there is a deeper problem with my computer. In the mean time, I am very grateful to James for patiently persevering with the computer and I. :-) metta, Chris --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "antony272b2" wrote: > > Dear Christine, > > Have you downloaded PDFs before? > > Clicking on them doesn't download but gives a blank screen. > > You have to right click and select "Save Target as" > > I hope this helps / Antony. > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" > So far I've got to the Support area of Acrobat to try to find out > > what to do when there is an Error "The download cannot continue. > > Error parsing voucher" occurs when you double-click a PDF File > > (Windows). I'll persevere with what they are suggesting - but for > > some reason they think I'll be able to keep the Adobe Download > > Manager under control. > > 38285 From: Bhante Vimalaramsi Date: Sun Nov 14, 2004 10:39am Subject: Re: [dsg] two viewings of anatta Dhamma Greetings Phil, I hope you don't mind my butting in on this conversation, but I have seen some things that may be needed to looked at more deeply. When you said, ""The compulsion to thoroughly investigate" is something that I have noticed Howard and you and others have. I appreciate it because I don't have it myself. I seem so happy to let things fall easily. So I would say that the above is too complex again. "The real feeling in the feeling." Mean the paramattha dhamma vs. the concept, the feeling vs the thinking about the feeling? "Detachment is not particularly interested." Willing to let it go. Well, I am still wondering about detachment being a moment in the citta process, the moment that the mind *does not* proliferate. *Bhante V* I have some questions, If I may. When you said that 'The compulsion to investigate' The question is to investigate what? And because I come from an experiential background of meditation my answer would be - to investigate "HOW" the process of arising phenomena arise and "HOW" they disappear. The way that this is done is by watching intently "HOW" these phenomena arise and when this is done with clear comprehension one can see that there is a definite process that takes place. That process is the arising of dependent origination. It seems to me that everything that does arise takes place in exactly the same way (when seen through the eyes of Dependent Arising). So, when you say "I seem so happy to let things fall easily." What you are saying is that you are not interested enough to see "HOW" this process actually works. And that is fine, no problem, we do the things that interest us the most. (This is not a criticizes of you or the way you do things, just an observation). To let things "fall easily" might be another way of getting caught in the False Belief of a self, which leads to more dukkha. When you say ." Mean the paramattha dhamma vs. the concept, the feeling vs the thinking about the feeling? "Detachment is not particularly interested." *Bhante V* When one is thinking about a feeling they have already had craving and clinging arise. The clinging being all of the thoughts about the feeling and the want to control the feeling with one's thoughts. So Dukkha has already arisen and this clouds the way we can perceive whatever has arisen. When ones wise attention has seen "HOW" these things have arisen it is then easier to let go. When you say "Well, I am still wondering about detachment being a moment in the citta process, the moment that the mind *does not* proliferate." *Bhante V* The thinking about a feeling is the trap that we all fall into, according to the seeing of the five aggregates feeling is one thing and the thinking about the feeling (sankhara) is another thing. This is "HOW" the knee-jerk reaction takes place. Every time one tries to think the feeling away is where the dukkha really happens. So when one is thinking about a feeling they have already had craving and clinging arise in their mind. The "clinging", being all of the thoughts about the feeling. So Dukkha has already arisen and this clouds the way we can perceive whatever has arisen. When ones wise attention has seen "HOW" these things have arisen it is then easier to let go and this is "HOW" detachment arises. What is detachment? What does it really mean? To me detachment arises when one has seen the tightness or tension arise in their mind and body (because of craving) they then relax and let go of it. When this happens one's mind becomes clear and alert -without any thoughts (clinging) in it, at that time- The detachment is that moment of brief relief where there is no dukkha. In that moment there is an unbelievable clarity of seeing the present moment for what it is. IE. seeing the true nature of that moment. The clear moment after letting go of the clinging and craving is where the 'non-proliferation' takes place. The whole trick to having a clear fluid awareness (yoniso manasikaara) of the present moment is being able to see for yourself the impersonal process of dependent origination. The reason that I say this is because when D.O. is seen as a cause and effect process there is no room for even the slightest hint of a person or self (atta). Any ideas about there being a personal self are completely nonexistent. And seeing in this way shows one that everything is a part of a process that is continually arising and passing away (anicca). *Bhante V* The problem with understanding Dhammanupassana (in the Satipatthana Sutta) in the first section on what to do when a hindrance arises (this means any thinking about something that has arisen and passed away or restlessness) If you take a close look at what the Buddha said to do when a hindrance arises, it may be helpful -because I used the hindrance of restlessness above I will use that as the part in this sutta. It says: "Here, there being restlessness in him, a bhikkhu understands: 'There is restlessness in me'; or there being no restlessness in him, a bhikkhu understands: 'There is no restlessness in me'; and he also understands how there comes to be the arising of the unarisen restlessness, and how there comes to be the abandoning of the arisen restlessness, and how there comes to be the future non-arising of abandoned restlessness." OK. Now what does all of this mean? The meditator or aware person knows when they are restless, that's easy enough to understand, right? Next how does the person abandon the arisen restlessness? They see that mind has a feeling of restlessness in it and they let it go (this is a tricky way of saying that a person lets it be there without getting involved with it any more, this is done by not paying attention to it any more and relaxing the tightness or tension caused by the being involved and taking it personally [atta], now the person sees the feeling has a tight mental fist wrapped around it [this is the attachment to it and the false ideas that it is theirs personally- atta] so they let it go and relax again [both the body and mind] then they softly redirect their mind back to a meditation object ie, breath and relaxing on the in breath and relaxing on the out breath or relaxing and wishing all beings happiness and peace. This is even done in ones daily activities!). This is "HOW" ones abandons the arisen hindrance of restlessness. And how does the person understand how there comes to be the abandoned unarisen restlessness? By being very clear and aware of how this process of dependent origination actually works and letting go of the craving (tightness or tension in one's mind and body -especially the subtle tightness in the head- when it arises). This is the practice of Right Effort- that is the noticing of a hindrance, the letting it go as shown above, the bringing up of a wholesome meditation object ie. the breath, or wishing happiness and peace to all beings and the staying with that wholesome (kusala) object. I hope this is helpful to you. Maha-Metta always Bhante Vimalaramsi 38286 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Nov 14, 2004 0:04pm Subject: different doorways, to Howard. Hi Howard, In India Sarah gave me a Q, of yours about a harsh sound hurting the ear and a bright light hurting the eyes. You asked for the Abhidhammic take, adding that this was discussed before. Yes, but I am not satified with my answer before. I try again. When there is pain, there is always the impingement of tangible object on the bodysense. The bodysense is all over the body, also right in the eye and in the ear. The earbase or earsense can only be impinged on by sound, not by tangible object. The eyesense or eyebase can only be impinged on by visible object. Hearing is accompanied by indifferent feeling and so is seeing. Bodysense can be accompanied by painful feeling or by pleasant bodily feeling as you remarked. When we say, harsh sound hurts the ear, we talk in a conventional, general way. When we are precise, there are body-contact and ear-contact at different moments. They condition different feelings. These are all momentary realities. Hearing has nothing to do with body-consciousness, they arise because of different conditions and have different objects. This is the way to really understand anatta, so that anatta is not just a term we repeat. Cittas are so fast that these contacts seem to occur all at once. That is why we think of my ears, my pain, we take realities for I and mine. Gradual Sayings, Book of Ones (I, V, 8, Wheel155-158): We can only with the help of the Abhidhamma fully appreciate the deep meaning of this sutta. Knowing about cittas that succeed each other very rapidly is really helpful. Nina. 38287 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Nov 14, 2004 0:04pm Subject: Re: [dsg] 'Cetasikas' study corner 48 - Feeling/Vedana (u) Hello Phil, op 14-11-2004 12:19 schreef plnao op plnao@j... > > Hmm. I don't get this yet. "Rupa is impinging on the body-sense." > Let's say a thorn sticking in my toe. There is rupa (the thorn) and > nama (the painful feeling.) No, I must say I can't imagine how it would > be possible in this case to be aware of the rupa without the painful > feeling. > Does the painful feeling kind of drown out sense of the rupa? > Is the rupa sensed as hardness, or temperature? Any other way? > If it is visible object, the rupa (visible object) can be seen, is seen, > before feeling arises > from it. Is a thorn felt by body sense in some way before the painful > feeling arises? N: No. Painful feeling accompanies the bodysense. See how difficult to entangle nama and rupa! We cannot by thinking. Only when sati and pañña arise. There can be awareness of only one nama or rupa at a time. PH: ....just now Naomi came in and wanted to talk about something. I told her > I was trying to figure out something difficult. About what? About body > sense. > She put her hands on my arms, fingers pressing down, and said "body sense." > I said "make it painful!" and she pinched a bit. And then she bit my ear!!!! N: Naomi understood quickly, without much ado. PH: Well, we had a laugh, but I don't think it helped much. It *was* easier to > be aware of her fingers as hardness when she was pushing than it was when > she was pinching. Then the pain (don't worry, just slight) dominated my > attention. N: Tangible object is hardness, softness, heat, cold, motion and pressure. Ph: And then, though she hasn't studied Abhidhamma, she said "don't forget > heat!" > And I said "it's temperature!" > And she pressed a soft part of her body against me and said "soft" > And I said "no, it's hardness!" N: When thinking about it we only know concepts. Awareness can arise unexpectedly. We do not have to name anything. It does not matter whether tangible object is hard or soft. It can also be resilience (motion). Or, when a wound irritates, the element of heat may appear. But now you see that we confuse easily nama and rupa and that it is not easy to know exactly the characteristic of feeling which is nama. Again, the first stage of insight, knowing the difference between nama and rupa, has to be realized first of all. But a beginning can be made. Nina. 38288 From: robmoult Date: Sun Nov 14, 2004 0:59pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Eightfold Noble Path for Teens Venerable Sir, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Bhante Vimalaramsi wrote: > Dhamma Greetings Rob, > > When I was in Asia I did many novitiate programs with teens. I found > that they were really interested in the wrong sexual activity precept. I > also found that they were very open to what the no sex while under the > care of their parents really meant. I explained it this way. > > Any sexual activity that causes hurtful feelings to arise in anyone > (partners, parents, etc) isn't a good thing. If one has sexual activity > with someone who is in the care of their parents would those parents be > happy about it? Of course not! So this would cause a sense of guilt and > remorse to arise in both you and the partner you had the sexual activity > with, this is Dukkha. And this guilty feeling will cloud the way you see > the world, plus it can cause you to tell lies, which brakes another > percept. So it is best not to have sexual activity until you are not in > the care of your parents. > > The idea of not causing anger to arise in your parents or another > families parents is a good thing, isn't it? Following this precept leads > one to a happier life. > > Hope this is helpful. By the way what country are you in? I did most of > my work with the Chinese kids in Malaysia and worked with Rev. Malinda at > the Brickfields temple in Kuala Lumpur. What a coincidence! I live in Kuala Lumpur and teach a Sunday morning Abhidhamma class at Brickfields! The Novitiate programme at Brickfields is coming up in a couple of weeks and is aimed at an older audience. The Novitiate programme that I will be speaking at tomorrow is conducted at Sentul Temple (the other Sri Lankan Vihara in Kuala Lumpur). The Novitiate programme at Sentul Temple is aimed at a much younger audience 12 - 18 years old, with most of the crowd closer to 12 than to 18. I very much like your approach to explaining sexual misconduct. The subject has come up a few times in my Abhidhamma class and has always generated some interested discussion. The challenge that I am facing is the range of age of the audience. The younger ones still see things mainly in black-and-white, while the middle range of the audience are starting to see shades of grey. I am basing this statement on my observations on my own son (12 and 14 years old). My thinking is influenced by the Abhaya Sutta (MN58), in which the Buddha outlined the criteria for deciding what to say. Not only must right speech be factual and beneficial (connected to the holy life / Nibbana), one must apply wisdom to choose the correct time to speak. I think that I will leave my PowerPoint slide as "No Adultery" and skip over the point quickly. With Great Respect, Rob M :-) 38289 From: robmoult Date: Sun Nov 14, 2004 1:01pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Eightfold Noble Path for Teens Hi Howard, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > ============================ > How about something like "Wise abstention from illegal, hurtful, or > inappropriate physical relationships"? (A bit vague, but with the advantage of a > degree of completeness.) > Thanks, I could well use that if questioned on the point (depending on the age of the questioner). Metta, Rob M :-) 38290 From: gazita2002 Date: Sun Nov 14, 2004 3:11pm Subject: India.......[Nina] Dear Nina, and other Dhamma friends, Thank you Nina, for your post on Pukkusati, most helpful. You asked about my tapes.... some turned out OK, others I can barely hear and others...blank...I will take Jon's advice for next time and bring some head phones. What I can hear is most beneficial. During one of our many discussions, T.A. Sujin spoke about the teachings of Buddha being according to his understanding. When we read the Tipitika, we should remember that these are words brought down by arahats, enlightened beings who fully understood the words of Buddha. T.A. Sujin encouraged us not to be careless and think that its very easy; as we read we should know whether its our own understanding or not yet. She stressed the importance of this. Buddha did not develop his understanding just to tell us about the name of all these realities. He had to use terms to define and point out the characteristics of reality. For those who are not careless, they will develop gradually until its truly their own understanding e.g. visible object - is it now one's own understanding that its just that that can be seen. Are we truthful with ourselves or do we fool ourselves that we have 'reached a certain stage' when we only 'think' we have? Can we honestly say we know seeing from visibe object? I know I can't. Patience, courage and good cheer, Azita. 38291 From: robmoult Date: Sun Nov 14, 2004 3:53pm Subject: Noble Eightfold Path for Teens (v2) Hi All, I have uploaded into the files section an updated PowerPoint and Acrobat file reflecting the numerous changes thus far. Additional feedback welcome! Metta, Rob M :-) 38292 From: m. nease Date: Sun Nov 14, 2004 5:04pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhamma Thread ( 120 ) Hi Htoo, I found this a particularly useful post. Knowing the difference between pa.n.natti dhamma and parmattha dhamma as aaramma.na seems to me to be crucial to understanding the difference between jhaana and vipassanaa bhavana. Can sammaadi.t.thi ever take pa.n.natti as aaramma.na? Or does 'sammaadi.t.thi' refer exclusively to satipa.t.thaana or maggacitta, which can only take paramattha dhammas as aaramma.na? Thanks, mike 38293 From: Date: Sun Nov 14, 2004 0:43pm Subject: Re: [dsg] different doorways, to Howard. Hi, Nina - In a message dated 11/14/04 3:06:44 PM Eastern Standard Time, nilo@e... writes: > Hi Howard, > In India Sarah gave me a Q, of yours about a harsh sound hurting the ear and > a bright light hurting the eyes. You asked for the Abhidhammic take, adding > that this was discussed before. Yes, but I am not satified with my answer > before. I try again. > When there is pain, there is always the impingement of tangible object on > the bodysense. The bodysense is all over the body, also right in the eye and > in the ear. The earbase or earsense can only be impinged on by sound, not by > tangible object. The eyesense or eyebase can only be impinged on by visible > object. ------------------------------------------- Howard: Yes, I agree. But hearing can *lead* to bodily contact, and seeing can *lead* to bodily impact. As a consequence of seeing sudden, extremely bright light, there is a very sudden contraction of the iris (I presume it is), and that is painful. Likewise with the hearing of an extremely loud sound, there results a sudden vibratory motion within the ear that is very painful. I agree that it is the *body* contact that is painful. ------------------------------------------ > Hearing is accompanied by indifferent feeling and so is seeing. Bodysense > can be accompanied by painful feeling or by pleasant bodily feeling as you > remarked. > When we say, harsh sound hurts the ear, we talk in a conventional, general > way. When we are precise, there are body-contact and ear-contact at > different moments. They condition different feelings. These are all > momentary realities. Hearing has nothing to do with body-consciousness, they > arise because of different conditions and have different objects. This is > the way to really understand anatta, so that anatta is not just a term we > repeat. > -------------------------------------- Howard: I agree that ear-door conciousness and eye-door consiousness are different from body-door consciousness, but each of the first two can, and in fact probably always do, condition body-door contact, though often body-door contact that is subtle. --------------------------------------- > Cittas are so fast that these contacts seem to occur all at once. That is > why we think of my ears, my pain, we take realities for I and mine. > Gradual Sayings, Book of Ones (I, V, 8, Wheel155-158): > Inasmuch that it is not easy to give an illustration for the mind's quick > change.> > -------------------------------------------- Howard: Actually, I can easily distinguish the seeing of a very bright light from the painful bodily reaction in the eye area immediately following. ------------------------------------------- > We can only with the help of the Abhidhamma fully appreciate the deep > meaning of this sutta. Knowing about cittas that succeed each other very > rapidly is really helpful. > Nina. > > ========================= With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 38295 From: robmoult Date: Sun Nov 14, 2004 10:28pm Subject: Contradiction between Bhikkhu Bodhi’s CMA and Visuddhimagga? Hi All, Page 172 of Bhikku Bodhi's Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma states: Sense objects are distinguished into three classes: the undesirable (anittha), the moderately desirable (ittha, also called itthamajjhatta, desirable-neutral), and the extremely desirable (ati- ittha). When the desirable object is thus subdivided into two, all undesirable objects are comprised within a single class called simply "the undesirable". The Visuddhimagga XIV, 102 states: Profitable resultant, though, has desirable or desirable-neutral objects only, while these [unprofitable resultant] have undesirable or undesirable-neutral objects only. It appears as though Bhikkhu Bodhi explicitly excludes a "undesirable-neutral" type of object whereas this type of object is explicitly mentioned in the Visuddhimagga. Any comments? Metta, Rob M :-) 38296 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Nov 14, 2004 10:58pm Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 49 - Feeling/Vedana (v) Dear Friends, Cetasikas by Nina van Gorkom. http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch.2 Feeling (Vedana) contd] ***** When hardness impinges on the body-sense, the kåya-viññåùa cognizes the hardness and the accompanying feeling experiences the ‘taste’ of the hardness. Time and again vipåkacittas arise which experience pleasant or unpleasant objects through the bodysense. There are hardness or softness, heat or cold impinging on the bodysense, no matter whether we are walking, standing, sitting or lying down. There is the experience of hardness or softness time and again when we touch things or take hold of them, but we are so absorbed in what we want to get or want to do that we are unaware of the different experiences through the senses. The feeling which is vipåka is different from feeling which is associated with attachment or aversion. Pleasant bodily feeling which is vipåka is not associated with attachment, and painful bodily feeling is not associated with aversion. At the moment of pleasant bodily feeling there is no attachment to the object; pleasant bodily feeling merely experiences the pleasant object. At the moment of painful bodily feeling there is no dislike of the object; painful bodily feeling merely experiences the unpleasant object. After the vipåkacittas which experience pleasant or unpleasant objects have fallen away, akusala cittas which are rooted in lobha (attachment), dosa (aversion) or moha (ignorance) are bound to arise. Akusala cittas arise very often, because we have accumulated many defilements. On the other hand, when there are conditions for ‘wise attention’ (1) to the object, kusala cittas arise instead of akusala cittas. There may be, for example, after the experience of tangible object, mindfulness of nåma or rúpa. *** (1) Abhidhamma in Daily Life, Chapter 9 ****** [Feeling(Vedana) to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 38297 From: robmoult Date: Sun Nov 14, 2004 11:28pm Subject: Bhavanga Citta of the Buddha Hi Htoo, I am reviewing some of your old posts as I rush to edit my book and prepare it for publication. In one of your posts, you wrote, "remember the bhavanga citta of the Buddha". Obviously, it had three roots. Can I assume it was unprompted and with neutral feeling? Where is this mentioned in the texts / commentaries? Metta, Rob M :-) 38298 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Nov 14, 2004 11:40pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Eightfold Noble Path for Teens Hi RobM & James, --- buddhatrue wrote: > Wow! Now that is one razzle dazzle presentation! I am impressed by > your Power Point skills! It is very professional and entertaining > (Christine, you just have to see it! ;-)). I especially like how > you handled the path factor of mindfulness. Your example of the > rose is much better than my silly gum ball analogy! ;-) And the > picture of the baby appearing to meditate is very cute! …. S: I agree with the razzle dazzle but stopped reading at mindfulness. I thought this was the weakest factor so far, especially the definitions of the objects of sati. (Funny, I had no trouble viewing the powerpoint yest, but can’t access it now to check the wording). Anyway, it seemed to be back to being aware of postures and concepts rather than realities. Rob, when you refer to awareness of sitting, for example, what is experienced? Yes the rose was cool, but I couldn’t see the point of the baby – Satipatthana is not the development of the kind of movements that a baby, children and those who haven’t heard the Buddha’s teachings understand. Unlike James, I didn’t think his gum ball analogy was silly – I thought it worked very well. We have no idea of what reality will appear by conditions just like the coloured gum balls and the task of sati is to be aware of whatever appears or ‘pops out’ without any selection. Just as we cannot choose what coloured gum ball will pop out, so too with realities. Whether ‘sensations from the body’ (i.e. hardness/softness, heat/cold, pressure), feelings, mental states or the ‘various phenomena (dhammas)’, (i.e. any cittas, cetasikas or rupas), all are beyond anyone’s ability to force ‘out’. And as you said James: “Just like one gum ball can come out of the machine at a time, awareness can only be aware of one of these gum balls at a time. …” Metta, Sarah ======= 38299 From: robmoult Date: Mon Nov 15, 2004 0:33am Subject: [dsg] Re: Eightfold Noble Path for Teens Hi Sarah, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > S: I agree with the razzle dazzle but stopped reading at mindfulness. I > thought this was the weakest factor so far, especially the definitions of > the objects of sati. (Funny, I had no trouble viewing the powerpoint yest, > but can't access it now to check the wording). Anyway, it seemed to be > back to being aware of postures and concepts rather than realities. Rob, > when you refer to awareness of sitting, for example, what is experienced? ===== The novitiates are handed some material when they start the programme. One of the pages that they are given is an extract from Bhikkhu Bodhi's essay, "The Noble Eightfold Path" which defines "Right Mindfulness" according to the structure of objects as listed in the Satipatthana Sutta. I also checked Ledi Sayadaw's essay, "The Noble Eightfold Path and its Factors Explained" and found that he followed the same structure. This is also how the Buddha described Right Mindfulness in the Mahasatipatthana Sutta (DN22). This is the structure that I followed in the presentation when selecting the objects of sati. BTW, I just checked the order from the Sutta and updated the presentation (walking, standing, sitting, lying down). ===== > > Yes the rose was cool, but I couldn't see the point of the baby – > Satipatthana is not the development of the kind of movements that a baby, > children and those who haven't heard the Buddha's teachings understand. ===== The baby was simply a really cute picture. I will make sure that I mention that babies don't meditate :-) ===== > > Unlike James, I didn't think his gum ball analogy was silly – I thought it > worked very well. We have no idea of what reality will appear by > conditions just like the coloured gum balls and the task of sati is to be > aware of whatever appears or `pops out' without any selection. Just as we > cannot choose what coloured gum ball will pop out, so too with realities. > Whether `sensations from the body' (i.e. hardness/softness, heat/cold, > pressure), feelings, mental states or the `various phenomena (dhammas)', > (i.e. any cittas, cetasikas or rupas), all are beyond anyone's ability to > force `out'. > > And as you said James: > "Just like one gum ball can come out of the machine at a time, awareness > can only be aware of one of these gum balls at a time. …" ===== I agree that the gum ball image holds some important Dhamma. I will add it in. Thanks! The dhamma may be a bit too deep for most of the audience, but it may make an impression on some. Metta, Rob M :-) 38300 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Nov 15, 2004 0:41am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sarah: "One path" Dear Dan, --- "Dan D." wrote: > > S: Penetrative insight into what reality? > > Gosh, pick one. Let's say, "dukkha as one of the tilakkhana." …. S: Can there be awareness of just ‘dukkha’ or does it have to be the ‘dukkha of a reality’ would you say? If it’s the latter, how does that awareness develop? …. <…> > There's a clear and stark distinction between insight into reality > and the language with which one describes it. Buddha's words are in > no sense the "one path", but they do describe the one path well. > A description of a deep, penetrating, mundane insight that could well > be made by someone who hadn't heard a whisper of Buddha's teachings > might run like this: "Ultimately, pleasure does not lead to > happiness." …. S: We agree that the words are not the path. No one has ever suggested this. The point is that the ‘someone’ who hasn’t heard a whisper of Buddha’s teachings deeply believes there is Someone when they have such insights or reflections. It is not the deep understanding of realities as anatta. …. >A more Buddhist description might run like this: "Dukkha > is characteristic of vedana." If someone who has never heard Buddha's > words doesn't understand what meaning you attach to them or is unable > to use them fluently in conversation, it is no indication whatsoever > that they have zero insight into reality. Instead, it is simply > testimony that they are not familiar with his words. …. S: I stressed in the threads with DN that it’s not the language or the word ‘vedana’ that is of any importance, but the understanding that arises having heard about these realities that counts. …. <…> <…> > No. I'm using "moment" as a gloss for nama. … S: You were talking about awareness of the ‘present moment’. So does this mean there can only be and should only be awareness of namas? ….. <…> > If doubt still arises, the texts are clear that satipatthana has not > developed to the point of stream-entry. I don't have any problem with > that. But are you saying that mundane insight also eradicates a > subsequent tendency to doubt? I don't buy that... …. S: No, but it’s worn away like the adze handle through the development of satipatthana from the beginning. By the time of stream-entry, there’s no more wearing away to be done – just the deep-rooted anusaya are finally eradicated. From the beginning, there has to be the precise understanding of seeing and visible object and the distinction between therm (and of hearing and sound etc), without any idea of self. It takes a long, long time, but the understanding must be developed in order to give up all attachment to self. For each reality it’s the same – sound as sound, hardness as hardness, thinking as thinking and so on, so that when awareness is aware, they can be known as conditioned realities without it being any big deal at all. …. > > > > > What do you understand the First Noble Truth of suffering to > refer > > > to? > > > > > > The first noble truth of suffering refers to conditioned mind > states, > > > all of which have the characteristics of anicca, anatta, and > dukkha. > > …. > > S: Only mind states? Are you sure? …. S: Still waiting for an answer to this one…. …. <…> > When you say things like "precise understanding of dhammas", you seem > to be referring to precise conceptual descriptions of dhammas. …. S: No. By ‘precise understanding’, I’m referring to moments of satipatthana, direct understanding of realities. …. >A > precise description of an understanding is quite different from the > understanding itself. … S: Yes. … >Is it possible for a wise person to have a > clumsy tongue, to not be able to communicate clearly? …. S: Yes. However if and when they do communicate, no matter how clumsily, we can get to know what their ideas really are, like here on DSG. It has nothing to do with the language or fluency in English or Pali. Of course we often misunderstand each other too. …. <…> > I read in the texts about patisankhañana -- knowledge of reflection > (Vism XXI, 47+). "He sees all formations as impermanent for the > following reasons: because they are non-continuous, temporary, > limited by rise and fall, disintegrating, [etc.]. He sees them as > painful for the following reasons: because they are continously > oppressed, hard to bear, [etc.]. ... why does he discern them in this > way? In order to contrive the means of deliverance." That sounds to > me like the "lower" insights are revisited over and over again, > deepening the understanding in a search for deliverance. In the midst > of this revisiting, udayabbayañana is not necessarily "lower" than > bhangañana. …. S: Each vipassana nana is a higher and deeper level of insight than the previous one. So patisankha nana (literally discrimination knowledge, I believe) penetreates the characteristics of conditioned dhammas, especially the ti-lakkhana of these dhammas repeatedly, directly understanding how such dhammas can never be a refuge of any kind, being so fleeting and unsatisfactory. (Now, we just think this while there isn’t any direct penetration of the arising and falling away of visible object, seeing and so on.) At this stage, the characteristic of anatta of all conditioned realities is seen clearly - no dhammas worth clinging to or in one’s control at all. Like the analogy of the relay chariots again to describe insights, there was no way to get to the 5th chariot without riding in the other ones in their correct order as I see it. …. <…> > If there's a kink in the way the namarupapariccheda words hit the ear > and get translated into concept so that the hearer stumbles on the > words but doesn't realize he or she is stumbling, lingering on that > language could well be a hindrance. …. S: So like on the list, we try to find ways to help each other understand what namas and rupas are using different kinds of language. The stumbling point or resistance, however, is invariably our deeply held views about Self, rather than the language, I think. Most people are just not interested. It goes against the current of usual thinking. In Bodh Gaya, I mentioned on the trip how K.Sujin suggested dhammas are like something behind a ‘black curtain'. When there’s no light, they cannot appear. It seems like nothing’s there – just people and things as usual, because of the ignorance and attachment after seeing and hearing. When there’s understanding, slowly the dhammas begin to appear. …. <…> > Oh, Sarah! I'm using "wrong" to mean "incorrect", not akusala! There > is nothing inherently wrong with being wrong. And the conceptions are > incorrect because the referents of the conceptions are not known -- > how could they be correct? …. S: You seem to be using ‘wrong’ then whenever there is not awareness of a reality, regardless of whether the citta is kusala or akusala or the formulation or conceptual understanding is right or wrong. I think this is very misleading. When we discuss dhammas now and agree that seeing is different from visible object, we’re talking conceptually, but it’s still ‘right’. There cannot be satipatthana at every moment. Is metta wrong? Is dana wrong? Is reflection on the Buddha, the Dhamma or the Sangha wrong? Look forward to any further elaborations. Metta, Sarah p.s Your post was a long one, so I tried to pick up the main points. You’re welcome to reintroduce any snipped parts of course. ================================ 38301 From: Ken O Date: Mon Nov 15, 2004 0:46am Subject: Re: [dsg] Contradiction between Bhikkhu Bodhi’s CMA and Visuddhimagga? Hi RobM I dont have my books with me now. Just a small remark, The Visuddhimagga XIV, 102 states: > Profitable resultant, though, has desirable or desirable-neutral > objects only, while these [unprofitable resultant] have undesirable > or undesirable-neutral objects only. > > It appears as though Bhikkhu Bodhi explicitly excludes > a "undesirable-neutral" type of object whereas this type of object > is explicitly mentioned in the Visuddhimagga. k: unprofitable resultant should be of two kinds if we classified it with feelings, one which is of neutral feelings while the other have unpleasant feelings (body sense only) Ken O 38302 From: robmoult Date: Mon Nov 15, 2004 0:55am Subject: Re: [dsg] Contradiction between Bhikkhu Bodhi’s CMA and Visuddhimagga? Hi Ken O, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O wrote: > Hi RobM > > I dont have my books with me now. Just a small remark, > > The Visuddhimagga XIV, 102 states: > > Profitable resultant, though, has desirable or desirable-neutral > > objects only, while these [unprofitable resultant] have undesirable > > or undesirable-neutral objects only. > > > > It appears as though Bhikkhu Bodhi explicitly excludes > > a "undesirable-neutral" type of object whereas this type of object > > is explicitly mentioned in the Visuddhimagga. > > k: unprofitable resultant should be of two kinds if we classified it > with feelings, one which is of neutral feelings while the other have > unpleasant feelings (body sense only) > I guess my problem is the Vsm's use of the term "undesirable-neutral object" which seems to be at odds with BB's text. Metta, Rob M :-) 38303 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Nov 15, 2004 1:50am Subject: More Tales from India: Detachment & Bitter Medicine Hi Phil, Larry, Azita, Nina, Chris & All, A little more on detachment from discussions and reminders in India. We heard and discussed how there has to be understanding with detachment from clinging with an idea of self to any object. From the very beginning there has to be the understanding of realities, not a trying to do or not do anything or of having wholesome states like metta or wisdom arise and unwholesome states not arise. It takes a lot of patience, khanti, of course. --- plnao wrote: >. I want to be more patient and generous and > helpful to people > through cultivation of the Brahma-Viharas, but there is most definitely > an > interest in > self-image, still the desire to be considered a wise man someday. … As Nina said, this is honest. In another post you wrote, as many others would say too, that you hoped that by better understanding defilements, your highest goal will be achieved of becoming ‘more loving, more compassionate, more joyful, more equanimitous and free from knee-jerk reactions’. …. These sound like fine aims to most of us. We discussed how so often the Dhamma is like bitter medicine that we have to swallow. We think we have worthy aims and goals and then begin to find out through the development of understanding with detachment how many of these goals are rooted in attachment to oneself. When we wonder how there can be more sati and panna, how to develop metta or to see our unwholesome states in order for them to be banished a little sooner, we reminded that these are all examples of the study of Self, rather than the study of Dhamma. Friends brought up the subject of a beggar with a ‘stub’ arm whom we had all seen and there were questions about the development of compassion as opposed to detachment or even indifference. We discussed how after seeing or hearing, there’s always the paying attention to aspects, to nimitta (signs) and anupyanjanna (details) and so we end up with the study of ‘Situation’, of a beggar in this case, rather than the study of the Dhamma. All that ever appears are cittas, cetasikas and rupas. What was seen was visible object, what was heard was sound, what were thought about were concepts. Again at such a time we’re in the ocean of concepts, in the Situation which is not real. For some friends, this seemed rather heartless. For others it seemed like the bitter medicine we have to swallow. Further examples were given during the trip of attachment to a partner and so on. Again, it’s understanding with detachment which knows realities which appear and slowly by its development, the burden of self-view with attachment is lifted. Otherwise we keep drowning in ‘the ocean of concepts’ without being aware of the characteristic of any reality, the island in the ocean. So detachment means not minding at all what is conditioned and not wishing for any particular states to arise. ‘Who’s there?’ ‘No one at all. Only realities’. Other teachings can talk about many kinds of wholesome deeds and acts, but even if we don’t think of ourselves at times of peforming more dana or developing metta, they’re motivated by an idea of self. Of course this doesn’t mean there won’t be compassion when we see the beggar or any development of metta or dana. It’ll be like before, but with more understanding and less clinging to self being a certain way. Besides, there can’t be understanding all the time! There will also be less expectations of others behaving in certain ways as well when we understand more about namas and rupas and conditions. Otherwise, when there are expectations and thoughts about others, once more it’s really minding about ourselves again and further drowining in concepts. We were reminded several times that ‘if the path leads to more attachment rather than detachment, it must be wrong’. Metta, Sarah p.s Comments, questions and disagreements welcome! ======= 38304 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Nov 15, 2004 2:05am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: India - Appropos of nothing Hi Chris, Betty & Howard, --- christine_forsyth wrote: > > > Thank you Howard! :-) > Yes, it is definitely the guests who have to fit in and change. > Once you are away from it, it becomes quite endearing in hindsight - > but when it is happening, the present reality arising is "murderous > rage" (this is a joke! :-)) .... I think I missed the joke. The circular conversation reminded me of waiting for the computer workman about to arrive 'at any minute' when it turned out eventually the hotel had been waiting days or weeks....but no one was going to tell me that.I kept being sent to the business centre to wait instead;-). And then the beds - well if the next guests didn't fit in, they may just have been shown one of the charming 5th floor rooms with the 'very collapsing camp-beds' and with wonderful electrical appliances such as an excellent TV I'm sure, but none of which were working. Amusing in hindsight as you say and a test of one's real understanding of kamma and vipaka at the time. It's just too easy to think the hotel, the tour operators or someone/something else is to blame for the short straws, I think. Look forward to more of your tales. Thx for the account on Nalanda. 'It brought back a memory of wandering sadly around the ruins'. Visible objects, stories, followed by lobha and dosa again. Betty was also talking about lots of dosa when looking out of the window of the bus. I'm just reminded she was intending to share her account.... Metta, Sarah p.s Howard, your reply to my error message was pretty hilarious - I'll see if I can find more rare sub-commentary texts for you;-) ====== 38305 From: Dhammaasoka Date: Mon Nov 15, 2004 4:03am Subject: Need help here :) Dear all, I have a question here and hope someone will kindly solve my doubt. The question is: What is the sequence of Javana in a vithi according to their strongness? It will be very much appreciated. Thanks. With regards, Lee 38306 From: buddhatrue Date: Mon Nov 15, 2004 4:33am Subject: [dsg] Re: Eightfold Noble Path for Teens --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Hi RobM & James, Unlike James, I didn't think his gum ball analogy was silly – I thought it > worked very well. We have no idea of what reality will appear by > conditions just like the coloured gum balls and the task of sati is to be > aware of whatever appears or `pops out' without any selection. Just as we > cannot choose what coloured gum ball will pop out, so too with realities. > Whether `sensations from the body' (i.e. hardness/softness, heat/cold, > pressure), feelings, mental states or the `various phenomena (dhammas)', > (i.e. any cittas, cetasikas or rupas), all are beyond anyone's ability to > force `out'. > > And as you said James: > "Just like one gum ball can come out of the machine at a time, awareness > can only be aware of one of these gum balls at a time. …" > > Metta, > > Sarah > ======= Friend Sarah (and Rob M), I'm glad that you liked my gum ball analogy, and I guess it wasn't as bad as I thought it was. The reason I called it silly is because it appears to oversimplify a very complicated subject. The Four Foundations of Mindfulness as being like gum balls? It makes me smile and embarrassed to even suggest such a thing! However, I think that if someone has a good knowledge and background in the Four Foundations, that analogy could work. I was thinking of these initiates' perspective and that they wouldn't have such a background, so I thought that the gum ball analogy would fall flat (pop? ;-)). Really, this subject is so complicated that it needs its own slide show. After all, mindfulness is the cornerstone to the Buddha's teaching. I understood why Rob M. didn't choose to use that analogy, but I guess it wouldn't hurt to introduce it either. I liked Rob's Rose example because it demonstrated that mindfulness is being aware of objects without abundant conceptualization. This is a kind of overview look at mindfulness that his audience could more easily understand. Hard choice to make…guess it is good to give the simple and the advanced approach. I liked the picture of the baby appearing to meditate and thought that it was a very age-appropriate type of attention-getter. I also like the fact that the entire body of the baby is visible, to show that we should be mindful of the entire body (from the top of the head to the tip of the toes). However, I do worry a little that the audience may be staring excessively at the baby and not pay attention to the content of that slide (especially the girls who are obsessed with babies!). Rob, maybe you could make the baby picture fade away at the end of the points and review the points without the baby picture? (Or not, since they will be taking notes) Rob, I also think that your idea of explaining no sexual misconduct as just "No Adultery" is a good idea. The fine points of the rule can be explained if anyone asks. No reason to dwell on that subject if it makes you uncomfortable. Metta, James 38307 From: Dan D. Date: Mon Nov 15, 2004 6:35am Subject: [dsg] Re: Sarah: "One path" Dear Sukin, A few very quick comments that you can take or leave. > > Sukin: It doesn't make sense to me that we would have had any > insight into > > anatta without first hearing about the Teachings. > > Dan: It is entirely possible for people to have enough insight into anatta > to develop a strong sense of detachment to Self without ever having > heard a whisper of Buddha's words. I think many of us have met such > people. Also, we would all agree that it is possible to learn how to > discuss "anatta" with great facility and demonstrate great command of > Buddhist words and arguments but still be very attached to Self. > > Sukin: > The goal of Dhamma practice is the eradication of lobha at all levels. > However this is a process which takes a long time and must happen in > stages, beginning with Right View. So as far as I am > concerned, `attachment to self' is not the focus of attention, though it is > quite important to detect this in oneself. However since Right View is > where one starts, it is more important to consider this and allow for the > fact that in the beginning, the understanding might only be conceptual. > It is only with practice that moments of attachment to self will be > gradually understood. 1. The process does take a long time and does begin with Right View; 2. "Sammaditthi" is decidedly not conceptual; 3. I have seen no indication in the texts that Right View depends on prior conceptual understanding, and I don't think there IS any indication. > Dan: Which has the deeper understanding? The one who has developed > a high degree of detachment to Self, yet not studied the Buddha's > words; or the one who has studied the Buddha's words extensively but > is strongly attached to Self? > > Which is more important? Understanding reality, or understanding > words? There is a striking distinction between them. > > Sukin: > Obviously, patipatti is accompanied with panna of a higher level than > pariyatti and the goal is pativedha. And reading, memorizing or even > seeing some logical relations between different concepts may not be > pariyatti at all. However when it *is* pariyatti, then the most basic > building block is indeed being laid, without which the other two levels > cannot be conditioned to arise. And when the latter have been > experienced to any degree, then `theory' too will be understood more > deeply. > But again I repeat; only Buddhas could have patipatti and pativedha > without first hearing the Teachings in any particular lifetime. Can you find any textual support for that, viz. that only Buddhas could develop any direct understanding at all? Or just that regular people can't develop the extreme depth of insight required to attain enlightenment without the help of a Buddha? > Sukin: > Of course I am never sure about anything, and whatever I state is just > personal opinion. But I have stated some reasons for this, which may > not be enough to convince you. And I can't state all the reasons because > not everything comes to mind and not every understanding can be > expressed. But I am open to any arguments from you or anyone which > might disprove my position. > I would like to try at this point, to express what I think your basic > premise is when you state about someone relying on `speculation', and > comment on it. > In conventional matters, I think it is right that without experience, if we > were to state something to be the case, then it is speculation. But I > don't think this applies to the matter of understanding anything, esp. > with regard to Dhamma. The function of panna is not `experience', and > information about past experience is not what panna at this moment is > being based upon. Panna is developed upon accumulated panna as > sankhara and sati is one proximate cause. The actual moment of panna > arising is very short but this is distinctly different from `thinking'. > Thinking can be with or without panna, but when it is, this is not > speculation, and in fact if subsequent moments are just `parroting' of > theory, this may still not be `speculating'. > There is no reason why panna cannot have concepts as object and it > makes sense that in the beginning this must be the case. It has to start > from somewhere and in development the very same concept is better > and better understood even without any direct experience. > Let us take for example the statement that, "All is Dhamma". At a > beginner level, someone might understand this to be the case while > thinking about his experiences. On the other hand another person may > not like the idea at all but instead, while taking for real people and > things, prefers to think all this to be the manifestation of God or > something. Another person may have a better understanding about > conditions and immediately understands in principle, that the statement > applies to what ever dhamma that is being experienced in the present > moment as against another, who might still think philosophically but fail > because of relative weaker panna, to think in terms of the present > moment. The former will whenever he considers the moment > only `think' about it and not really know the characteristic of dhammas. > Yet these two only understand anything conceptually but "understand" > they do! And I do except that moments when panna arises may be very > far apart and the rest of the time it may be just at best parroting and at > worse mistaking theoretical knowledge for understanding. > You are saying however in this matter, that indeed if they understand > the concepts right, then it must be because they previously had direct > experience. I don't think so. And it is according to this same theory that > I don't believe that people of other religions could have satipatthana. > --------------------------- I don't think the connection between direct understanding and conceptual understanding is as clear as you are assuming. That's all. Conceptual right view does not constitute Right View any more than conventional right effort constitutes Right Effort. Nor does conceptual right view does lead to Right View any more than conventional right effort leads to Right Effort. Sammaditthi is right viewing of reality, not correct opinion. I hope this helps! Metta, Dan 38308 From: Date: Mon Nov 15, 2004 2:02am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Eightfold Noble Path for Teens Hi, Rob (and Sarah, and James) - In a message dated 11/15/04 3:34:52 AM Eastern Standard Time, rob.moult@j... writes: > > Hi Sarah, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott > wrote: > >S: I agree with the razzle dazzle but stopped reading at > mindfulness. I > >thought this was the weakest factor so far, especially the > definitions of > >the objects of sati. (Funny, I had no trouble viewing the > powerpoint yest, > >but can't access it now to check the wording). Anyway, it seemed > to be > >back to being aware of postures and concepts rather than > realities. Rob, > >when you refer to awareness of sitting, for example, what is > experienced? > > ===== > > The novitiates are handed some material when they start the > programme. One of the pages that they are given is an extract from > Bhikkhu Bodhi's essay, "The Noble Eightfold Path" which > defines "Right Mindfulness" according to the structure of objects as > listed in the Satipatthana Sutta. I also checked Ledi Sayadaw's > essay, "The Noble Eightfold Path and its Factors Explained" and > found that he followed the same structure. This is also how the > Buddha described Right Mindfulness in the Mahasatipatthana Sutta > (DN22). This is the structure that I followed in the presentation > when selecting the objects of sati. BTW, I just checked the order > from the Sutta and updated the presentation (walking, standing, > sitting, lying down). > > ========================== As I see this, I don't think there is a problem in the discussion of the four foundations of mindfulness. It seems standard. When we are mindful of sitting, we are, more or less, depending on our level of mental cultivation, actually aware of the dhammas underlying that sitting - overall body sense, touch-contact, and so on. What I think might be somewhat improved, in the future, for this topic, are a couple points about the mindfulness per se. One of these is the distinguishing, which I am not *certain* of how to do, between mindfulness, attention, and clear comprehension. Most people use these terms in a sort of smeared-together way, but I think that is not correct. It *seems* to me that mindfulness, per se, amounts to *not forgetting* to attend to whatever arises in the moment, thereby not "getting lost". Mindfulness, as I understand it, is a "keeping in mind" to be attentive. Attention is a consequence of that, and clear comprehension a consequence of attention. Now, I may well be wrong on exactly what mindfulness is, but whatever it is, it should be distinguished from attention and from clear comprehension. This is one point. The other point I'd like to raise, which could lead to a modification even right now, should you agree with me on this, is the following. On a few slides, you deal with papanca, starting with how the "eye" sees an an image of a rose, and how the mind then concocts further and further upon that percept. Of course, at that point of "seeing" a rose, it already is not the eye that sees, but the mind which perceives. The stage is already that of percept. I think you might want to back up matters slightly with that material, pointing out that there is a an initial visual contact taking in a "bare" visual object, neutral in feeling, and following upon this, there is an initial mental processing involving automatic comparison with previous sights yielding a perceiving, usually wordless, which is the recognition of "a rose". That recognition is the first step of mental processing of the original bare "eye object". The mind then runs with that ball ("the rose"), taking it further and further up the field of mental concocting, cheered on and impelled by the spectators and fans, the mind's avid desires and misconceptions, jumping up from their seats. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 38309 From: Dan D. Date: Mon Nov 15, 2004 7:14am Subject: [dsg] Re: Sarah: "One path" Dear Sarah, > S: Can there be awareness of just `dukkha' or does it have to be the > `dukkha of a reality' would you say? If it's the latter, how does that > awareness develop? Of course there can be awareness of just 'dukkha'. It happens when the awareness of that characteristic is very clear. > > There's a clear and stark distinction between insight into reality > > and the language with which one describes it. Buddha's words are in > > no sense the "one path", but they do describe the one path well. > > A description of a deep, penetrating, mundane insight that could well > > be made by someone who hadn't heard a whisper of Buddha's teachings > > might run like this: "Ultimately, pleasure does not lead to > > happiness." > …. > S: We agree that the words are not the path. No one has ever suggested > this. The point is that the `someone' who hasn't heard a whisper of > Buddha's teachings deeply believes there is Someone when they have such > insights or reflections. It is not the deep understanding of realities as > anatta. "Deeply believes"? Do you mean that the mind grasps onto the idea of a 'someone' at all times? No, I can't imagine that you mean that. Other times there are other objects that it clings to as well. A mind with a latent tendency to grasp at the notion of "self" is not enlightened; but such a mind may well be able to develop wisdom nonetheless. > >A more Buddhist description might run like this: "Dukkha > > is characteristic of vedana." If someone who has never heard Buddha's > > words doesn't understand what meaning you attach to them or is unable > > to use them fluently in conversation, it is no indication whatsoever > > that they have zero insight into reality. Instead, it is simply > > testimony that they are not familiar with his words. > …. > S: I stressed in the threads with DN that it's not the language or the > word `vedana' that is of any importance, but the understanding that arises > having heard about these realities that counts. That's right. I was just referring to your comment that you could accurately assess a person's understanding through conversation. I'd say that, for the most part, you can assess their conceptual understanding in coversation; but because direct understanding is so strikingly distinct from conceptual understanding, assessment of someone's direct understanding cannot be safely assessed in conversation. It takes years and years of observing their actions, speech, etc. And even then, it is not easy. > > No. I'm using "moment" as a gloss for nama. > … > S: You were talking about awareness of the `present moment'. So does this > mean there can only be and should only be awareness of namas? Sarah, a lot has been snipped, but I was just trying to construct a single, simple example. The example needn't include all possibilities. > > > > > What do you understand the First Noble Truth of suffering to > > refer > > > > to? > > > > > > > > The first noble truth of suffering refers to conditioned mind > > states, > > > > all of which have the characteristics of anicca, anatta, and > > dukkha. > > > …. > > > S: Only mind states? Are you sure? > …. > S: Still waiting for an answer to this one…. It depends on what I mean by "mind states"... but I'm not very attracted to the idea of spinning around and around with endless discussion about it. > >Is it possible for a wise person to have a > > clumsy tongue, to not be able to communicate clearly? > …. > S: Yes. However if and when they do communicate, no matter how clumsily, > we can get to know what their ideas really are, like here on DSG. It has > nothing to do with the language or fluency in English or Pali. Of course > we often misunderstand each other too. Knowing what someone's ideas are has nothing to do with how well they express themselves? And nothing to do with vocabulary and what they are referring to when they use words? Curiouser and curiouser! > > Oh, Sarah! I'm using "wrong" to mean "incorrect", not akusala! There > > is nothing inherently wrong with being wrong. And the conceptions are > > incorrect because the referents of the conceptions are not known - - > > how could they be correct? > …. > S: You seem to be using `wrong' then whenever there is not awareness of a > reality, regardless of whether the citta is kusala or akusala or the > formulation or conceptual understanding is right or wrong. I think this is > very misleading. When we discuss dhammas now and agree that seeing is > different from visible object, we're talking conceptually, but it's still > `right'. There cannot be satipatthana at every moment. Is metta wrong? Is > dana wrong? Is reflection on the Buddha, the Dhamma or the Sangha wrong? No, you silly! I'm only saying that if you don't know the meanings of the words you are using, your conception of what they refer to is wrong. So the "conceptual right view" you develop before there is direct awareness is, quite simply, wrong! (Not morally wrong, but, rather, incorrect. I feel like I need to say this again because your question "Is metta wrong?" makes no sense unless you are thinking in terms of the "morally wrong" meaning of "wrong" rather than the "incorrect" meaning of wrong.) Metta, Dan 38310 From: Bhante Vimalaramsi Date: Mon Nov 15, 2004 8:10am Subject: Re: [dsg] different doorways, to Howard. Dhamma Greetings Nina, In your talk with Howard you said "Cittas are so fast that these contacts seem to occur all at once. That is why we think of my ears, my pain, we take realities for I and mine. Gradual Sayings, Book of Ones (I, V, 8, Wheel155-158): We can only with the help of the Abhidhamma fully appreciate the deep meaning of this sutta. Knowing about cittas that succeed each other very rapidly is really helpful." I have to make a comment. Through the proper practice of meditation one can actually see through direct experience how fast mind moves and changes. The practice of tranquility meditation helps one to speed up there awareness so the meditator can "know" exactly "HOW" dependent origination arises and passes away. With this fast awareness of direct experience there is no need for abhidhammic concepts. With this kind of fast awareness there natrually arises an equanimity to this process and any idea at all of a personal self is completely abandoned. Why? Because one can see for themselves directly that there is no controller or 'self'. Hope this helps. Maha-Metta always, Bhante Vimalaramsi 38311 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Nov 15, 2004 10:23am Subject: Re: [dsg] different doorways, to Howard. Hi Howard, op 15-11-2004 02:43 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: > Yes, I agree. But hearing can *lead* to bodily contact, and seeing can > *lead* to bodily impact. As a consequence of seeing sudden, extremely bright > light, there is a very sudden contraction of the iris (I presume it is), and > that is painful. Likewise with the hearing of an extremely loud sound, there > results a sudden vibratory motion within the ear that is very painful. I agree > that it is the *body* contact that is painful. > ------------------------------------------ N: I used to think in this way too. But then we are in the realm of science, lost in the ocean of concepts. Science is not our concern, it does not lead to detachment from the idea of self. So, it does not matter what causes the pain, but we know it is experienced through body-contact. There is no need to investigate further, about vibrations or the iris in the eye. We can learn to discern different dhammas at different moments. > -------------------------------------- > Howard: > I agree that ear-door conciousness and eye-door consiousness are > different from body-door consciousness, but each of the first two can, and in > fact > probably always do, condition body-door contact, though often body-door > contact that is subtle. > --------------------------------------- >N: The conditions for body-consciousness are: the rupa of bodysense (all over the body) that is ready for impact of the element of tangible object. Moreover, kamma-condition and natural strong dependence-condition cause the arising of the vipakacitta that is body consciousness (and also its accompanying cetasikas contact, painful feeling and the others). The body-door adverting-consciousness, preceding the body-consciousness, is its proximate cause. I mention these conditions to make it clear that many different conditions are needed for one short moment of experience. In this case it was akusala kamma producing the painful feeling. But, seeing or hearing are produced by other kammas that may be kusala kamma. How could these be conditions for painful feeling? We should not mix different cittas, then we are thinking of a situation, an event, a whole, a person who has pain. No detachment. > -------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Actually, I can easily distinguish the seeing of a very bright light > from the painful bodily reaction in the eye area immediately following. > ------------------------------------------- N: It is natural to think of an area in the eye, I do too. But that is again thinking of a place, of a situation. Understanding has to be developed of different dhammas arising each because of their own conditions, which are only elements, devoid of self. I know it is a long way to develop this understanding. We cannot hasten it. Pañña works its way. Nina. 38312 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Nov 15, 2004 10:23am Subject: Re: [dsg] India.......[Nina] Dear Azita, I like your quote very much. We had to hear: develop your own understanding. It would be easy if someone would prescribe us what to do by way of different steps, but it does not work this way. One has to be an island to himself, a refuge to himself, seeking no external refuge, as is said in the Maha-parinibbana sutta. How true this is. op 15-11-2004 00:11 schreef gazita2002 op gazita2002@y...: > During one of our many discussions, T.A. Sujin spoke about the > teachings of Buddha being according to his understanding. When we > read the Tipitika, we should remember that these are words brought > down by arahats, enlightened beings who fully understood the words of > Buddha. T.A. Sujin encouraged us not to be careless and think that > its very easy; as we read we should know whether its our own > understanding or not yet. She stressed the importance of this. > > Buddha did not develop his understanding just to tell us about > the name of all these realities. He had to use terms to define and > point out the characteristics of reality. For those who are not > careless, they will develop gradually until its truly their own > understanding e.g. visible object - is it now one's own understanding > that its just that that can be seen. > > Are we truthful with ourselves or do we fool ourselves that > we have 'reached a certain stage' when we only 'think' we have? > Can we honestly say we know seeing from visible object? > I know I can't. N: I found this helpful: Seeing only lasts for an extremely short moment, it falls away immediately. Also visible object falls away and is gone completely, but because of saññå, remembrance of former experiences, we think of people and things and these seem to last. When we are dreaming, we are not really seeing and hearing, but we remember former experiences. It is the same when we are awake: we live as it were in a dream. We are absorbed in the images and details of things, but at least we know that is thinking, not seeing. Without the Buddha's teaching we would not know this at all. It is of no use trying to be aware of seeing, we cannot force sati or select any object as we often heard. Perhaps there may be awareness of hardness, who can tell? Nina. 38313 From: Bhante Vimalaramsi Date: Mon Nov 15, 2004 9:30am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sarah: "One path" Dhamma Greetings Sarah, I think it would be nice if you responded to this as well. Smile and be happy1 Maha-Metta always Bhante Vimalaramsi 38314 From: Date: Mon Nov 15, 2004 6:15am Subject: Re: [dsg] different doorways, to Howard. Hi, Nina - In a message dated 11/15/04 1:34:12 PM Eastern Standard Time, nilo@e... writes: > > Hi Howard, > op 15-11-2004 02:43 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: > > >Yes, I agree. But hearing can *lead* to bodily contact, and seeing can > >*lead* to bodily impact. As a consequence of seeing sudden, extremely > bright > >light, there is a very sudden contraction of the iris (I presume it is), > and > >that is painful. Likewise with the hearing of an extremely loud sound, > there > >results a sudden vibratory motion within the ear that is very painful. I > agree > >that it is the *body* contact that is painful. > >------------------------------------------ > N: I used to think in this way too. But then we are in the realm of science, > lost in the ocean of concepts. Science is not our concern, it does not lead > to detachment from the idea of self. So, it does not matter what causes the > pain, but we know it is experienced through body-contact. There is no need > to investigate further, about vibrations or the iris in the eye. We can > learn to discern different dhammas at different moments. > ------------------------------------------ Howard: Well, I don't care about the conventional scientfic explanation either, though I referred to it. My point was only that the visual contact leads to painful body-door contact. --------------------------------------- > >-------------------------------------- > >Howard: > >I agree that ear-door conciousness and eye-door consiousness are > >different from body-door consciousness, but each of the first two can, and > in > >fact > >probably always do, condition body-door contact, though often body-door > >contact that is subtle. > >--------------------------------------- > >N: The conditions for body-consciousness are: the rupa of bodysense (all > over > the body) that is ready for impact of the element of tangible object. > Moreover, kamma-condition and natural strong dependence-condition cause the > arising of the vipakacitta that is body consciousness (and also its > accompanying cetasikas contact, painful feeling and the others). The > body-door adverting-consciousness, preceding the body-consciousness, is its > proximate cause. I mention these conditions to make it clear that many > different conditions are needed for one short moment of experience. In this > case it was akusala kamma producing the painful feeling. But, seeing or > hearing are produced by other kammas that may be kusala kamma. How could > these be conditions for painful feeling? We should not mix different cittas, > then we are thinking of a situation, an event, a whole, a person who has > pain. No detachment. -------------------------------------------- Howard: I don't disagree with the foregoing, Nina. Of course there are numerous conditions for the arising of painful body-door contact. I'm merely saying that a visual experience of "extremely bright light" is one of these conditions. And this is a matter of direct, and oft repeated, experience. I know it as direct, experiential fact. It is not unusual. --------------------------------------------- > >-------------------------------------------- > >Howard: > >Actually, I can easily distinguish the seeing of a very bright light > >from the painful bodily reaction in the eye area immediately following. > >------------------------------------------- > N: It is natural to think of an area in the eye, I do too. But that is again > thinking of a place, of a situation. > ----------------------------------------------- Howard: It is a conventional designation that is grounded in reality and is quite meaningful. To reformulate it in ultimate terms would be too complex an endeavor. So long as one realizes the shorthand nature of useful language conventions, there is no problem with them. ------------------------------------------------- Understanding has to be developed of> > different dhammas arising each because of their own conditions, which are > only elements, devoid of self. > ------------------------------------------------ Howard: Yes. Nothing that I have said on this matter is contrary to that. ----------------------------------------------- I know it is a long way to develop this> > understanding. We cannot hasten it. Pañña works its way. ----------------------------------------------- Howard: At this point in time, I'm reasonably clear on this. Of course, greater clarity is almost always a possibility. One thing though: I think it is incorrect to say that it cannot be hastened. If one does nothing at all, not studing Dhamma, not attending carefuly to what arises, not guarding the senses, etc, then the conditions for the cultivation of wisdom will not be established, and without the conditions being established, neither will the wisdom be. The speed of cultivation of wisdom in that case will be zero miles per hour! I do believe that this can be hastened. --------------------------------------------- > Nina. > > > > ======================= With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 38315 From: agriosinski Date: Mon Nov 15, 2004 0:33pm Subject: Re: [dsg] different doorways, to Howard. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: [...] >I'm merely saying > that a visual experience of "extremely bright light" is one of these > conditions. And this is a matter of direct, and oft repeated, experience. I know it as > direct, experiential fact. It is not unusual. [...] Hi Howard, just thinking... how about an event instead of the experience? metta, Agrios 38316 From: Date: Mon Nov 15, 2004 7:59am Subject: Re: [dsg] different doorways, to Howard. Hi, Agrios - In a message dated 11/15/04 3:37:55 PM Eastern Standard Time, agriosinski@y... writes: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > [...] > >I'm merely saying > >that a visual experience of "extremely bright light" is one of these > >conditions. And this is a matter of direct, and oft repeated, experience. I > know it as > >direct, experiential fact. It is not unusual. > > [...] > > Hi Howard, > just thinking... > how about an event instead of the experience? ------------------------------------------- Howard: Well, just between you and me (No one else is "listening", are they? ;-), I don't actually believe, except "so to speak", in events other than experiences. I also don't believe in "things", but only in events and processes. So, as I see it, there are no odors, but there do occur "odorings". BTW, I don't expect anyone else to adopt such perspectives. While I think that these perspectives are implicit in the Dhamma, and while I think they are correct (to the extent that any conceptual views can be correct), I realize I could be wrong, and I have no reason to attempt to convince others of these. -------------------------------------------- > > > metta, > Agrios ======================= With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 38317 From: plnao Date: Mon Nov 15, 2004 2:49pm Subject: A man *not* burning! Hello all The other morning I was walking in Tokyo, before work, when I saw a giant billboard for coffee, with a picture of a famously passionate baseball manager with a giant flame surrounding him. "Here is a man....burning!" said the ad copy. (Of course, meaning burning with passion for managing) I almost immediately thought "Here is yoniso manasikaara. Not burning!" and was encouraged by this. I've been thinking a lot about just what it is, just how it is, that the mind stops proliferating. And this was a nice chance to feel confident that I at least knew what an interesting and important point it is. I continued walking to work, my mind sometimes proliferating on my four favourite proliferation topics (Dhamma, baseball - will the Yankees get Carlos Beltran? - the war in Iraq and sex) and sometimes not. I often thought of this "not burning!", sensed it. On the last stretch before I reach my school, I walk against a flood of men going to the horse race betting center. There are hundreds and hundreds of them, smoking, sometimes drinking from cans of booze and there has often been conceited thoughts on my part when I compare myself to them. (They have dirty hearts" I have thought before, though I thought it in Japanese using a phrase which doesn't sound quite so prudish.) On some occasions, I have practiced Metta intentionally towards, and found it helpful for my aversion. But as I've said on other occasions, I'm not comfortable at this time with generating metta intentionally in response to aversion. This past Sunday, however, there was equanimity, there was no burning. This morning I read the "fire sutta" (the eye is burning, form is burning, eye-consciousness is burning" etc and thought I would send along this post. "The mind is burning, ideas are burning, mind-consciousness is burning. When a noble follower who hears the truth sees this, he finds estrangement in the mind etc...." I look forward to learning more, with your assistance, about how yoniso manasikaara, panna and sati work to liberate us from proliferation. Metta, Phil p.s Hello in passing to Bhante V, Larry and Jon. I want to return to our discussions but won't be able to until tomorrow at the earliest. 38318 From: kenhowardau Date: Mon Nov 15, 2004 8:39pm Subject: There is a Practice (Re: [dsg] Re: New to Group) Hi Phil, Sorry for the delay. I was away for a couple of days, and got behind in my reading. On the subject of the five-fold mundane path, you wrote: --------- > Do you believe that such moments are rare moments, so called "path moments" that are akin to enlightenment, or can they be experienced in a more common, everyday way? Since you've defined them as right practice, I guess you would see them as moments that we will experience *not* only at rare moments. > -------- I think the humble beginner would be doing well to have one moment of satipatthana in a lifetime. On the other hand, the ariyan monks described in the Satipatthana Sutta seemed to practice satipatthana wherever they were and whatever they were doing. I think you and I agree that satipatthana would not have stopped those monks from paying full attention to their activities. They would not have felt obliged to note, "seeing" "hearing" "walking" "talking" "bending" "lifting" and so on. Imagine doing that while you are trying to teach a class! In my experience, that sort of mindfulness makes it nearly impossible to perform ordinary duties. Worse still, it is an imitation of satipatthana based on a wrong understanding of the Dhamma. ------------------ Ph: > As we know, K Sujin's teaching of Abhidhamma stresses the rarity of the arising of understanding of realities. > ------------------ It would be good to understand why it is rare. That would certainly be more constructive than wanting it to be frequent. ----------- Ph: > I think that approach is helpful for conditioning patience. On the other hand, it seems to this beginner that understanding can arise in a more shallow and yet still helpful way day in day out, perhaps many times during a busy day. There are degrees of panna. And degrees of "practice?" > ----------- Yes, but satipatthana occurs in the natural course of daily life. If we have any ideas of a special, preparatory, state of mind then we have not listened to, and wisely considered, the Dhamma. That will mean the conditions for satipatthana are not present. Kind regards, Ken H 38319 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Nov 15, 2004 9:04pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Contradiction between Bhikkhu Bodhi ’s CMA and Visuddhimagga? Hi Rob m and Ken O: op 15-11-2004 09:55 schreef robmoult op rob.moult@j...: The Visuddhimagga XIV, 102 states: Profitable resultant, though, has desirable or desirable-neutral objects only, while these [unprofitable resultant] have undesirable or undesirable-neutral objects only. N: As I understood also the undesirable can be very undesirable or slightly so. (more neutral. ) >> Ken O: unprofitable resultant should be of two kinds if we classified > it >> with feelings, one which is of neutral feelings while the other > have >> unpleasant feelings (body sense only) >> > R: I guess my problem is the Vsm's use of the term "undesirable-neutral > object" which seems to be at odds with BB's text. N: I looked up the passage, a recap: Text Vis.: And the equanimity in these is inferior, and not very sharp as the pain is; while in the former it is superior, and not very sharp as the pleasure is. =========== N. Bodily pleasant feeling and painful feeling are keen, because the impact of tangible object on the bodysense is more violent than the impact of the other sense objects on the relevant sense-bases. The sense-cognitions other than body-consciousness, seeing, hearing, etc., are accompanied by indifferent feeling, upekkhaa. The indifferent feeling that is kusala vipaaka is superior, whereas the indifferent feeling that is akusala vipaaka is inferior. The Tiika explains that since akusala vipaaka is the result of what is surely inferior also indifferent feeling accompanying the akusala vipaakacitta is inferior because it is of a nature of affliction (dukkhasabhaavatta). It states: N: Upekkhaa that is akusala vipaaka is inferior, it should be seen as a kind of suffering or affliction, although it is not as acute as bodily pain. The Tiika states: N: This shows the passive nature of indifferent feeling that accompanies akusala vipaaka. It is a kind of affliction. end recap. Nina. 38320 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Nov 15, 2004 9:04pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Need help here :) Dear Lee, op 15-11-2004 13:03 schreef Dhammaasoka op dasoka@n... > > What is the sequence of Javana in a vithi according to their strongness? Ven. Narada, Abhidhammattha sangaha, p. 169: The first javana is the weakest, (no previous sustaining force), it can give result in this life. The last is the second weakest (sustaining power is spent). it may give result in the next life. The remaining five may give result at any time. Nina. 38321 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Nov 15, 2004 10:33pm Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 50-Feeling/Vedana (w) Dear Friends, Cetasikas by Nina van Gorkom. http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch.2 Feeling (Vedana) contd] ***** We have considered the characteristics of pleasant bodily feeling, painful bodily feeling, happy feeling (somanassa), unhappy feeling (domanassa) and indifferent feeling (upekkhå)(2) . Although all of them are the cetasika which is feeling (vedanå), they are different kinds of feeling with different characteristics. At every moment feeling is different, because at every moment there is a different citta. For example, upekkhå (indifferent feeling) which accompanies vipåkacitta is different from upekkhå which accompanies akusala citta or upekkhå which accompanies kusala citta. Upekkhå which accompanies the jhånacitta of the fifth stage is different again. All these feelings are upekkhå, but they are conditioned by different cittas and accompanying cetasikas. *** 2) For details about the different feelings which accompany different cittas, see Visuddhimagga XIV, 127-128, and my Appendix 1. ****** [Feeling(Vedana) to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 38322 From: robmoult Date: Mon Nov 15, 2004 11:28pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Contradiction between Bhikkhu Bodhi ’s CMA and Visuddhimagga? Hi Nina, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > Hi Rob m and Ken O: > op 15-11-2004 09:55 schreef robmoult op rob.moult@j...: > The Visuddhimagga XIV, 102 states: > Profitable resultant, though, has desirable or desirable-neutral > objects only, while these [unprofitable resultant] have undesirable > or undesirable-neutral objects only. > N: As I understood also the undesirable can be very undesirable or slightly > so. (more neutral. ) ===== It also makes sense to me that there would be "very undesirable" and "slightly undesirable" (just as there is "very desirable" and "slightly desirable"). In other words, it makes sense to me that there would be four categories. Perhaps we can reconcile this with Bhikkhu Bodhi's CMA (i.e. three categories) by saying: When considered from the perspective of the citta process, there are only three categories: - both very undesirable objects and slightly desirable objects have unwholesome resultant investigating consciousness with neutral feeling for investigating citta and registration citta - slightly desirable objects have wholesome resultant investigating consciousness with neutral feeling for investigating citta and registration citta (may also have sense sphere resultant with indifferent feeling as registration citta) - highly desirable objects have wholesome resultant investigating consciousness with pleasant feeling for investigating citta and registration citta (may also have sense sphere resultant with pleasant feeling as registration citta) Nina, am I correct in interpreting the text as saying that very desirable and very undesirable is always associated with body door whereas the slightly desirable and slightly undesirable are associated with objects from the other doors? For example, remember the cotton ball (derived rupas) and anvil (primary rupas) explanation of why impingement on the sense door results in pleasurable / painful feeling whereas all other impingements result in neutral feeling in the sense-consciousness cittas? ===== > >> Ken O: unprofitable resultant should be of two kinds if we classified > > it > >> with feelings, one which is of neutral feelings while the other > > have > >> unpleasant feelings (body sense only) > >> > > > R: I guess my problem is the Vsm's use of the term "undesirable- neutral > > object" which seems to be at odds with BB's text. > > N: I looked up the passage, a recap: > Text Vis.: > And the equanimity in these is inferior, and not very sharp as the pain is; > while in the former it is superior, and not very sharp as the pleasure is. > =========== > N. Bodily pleasant feeling and painful feeling are keen, because the impact > of tangible object on the bodysense is more violent than the impact of the > other sense objects on the relevant sense-bases. > The sense-cognitions other than body-consciousness, seeing, hearing, etc., > are accompanied by indifferent feeling, upekkhaa. The indifferent feeling > that is kusala vipaaka is superior, whereas the indifferent feeling that is > akusala vipaaka is inferior. > The Tiika explains that since akusala vipaaka is the result of what is > surely inferior also indifferent feeling accompanying the akusala > vipaakacitta is inferior because it is of a nature of affliction > (dukkhasabhaavatta). It states: as acute¹ ( ³dukkha.m viya naatitikhi.naa²ti.)> > N: Upekkhaa that is akusala vipaaka is inferior, it should be seen as a kind > of suffering or affliction, although it is not as acute as bodily pain. > The Tiika states: (indifferent feeling) is not like that, but here it also occurs as having > the nature of affliction. > The result of akusala is not devoid of suffering (na hi akusalassa vipaako > adukkho hoti).The nature of upekkhaa should be seen as the indifference of a > weak man who is oppressed by a strong man and who is unable to strike back. > > > N: This shows the passive nature of indifferent feeling that accompanies > akusala vipaaka. It is a kind of affliction. > end recap. > Nina. Metta, Rob M :-) 38323 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Nov 15, 2004 11:57pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Sarah: "One path" Dear Bhante, I’ll try to give a few comments or ask a few questions on the post you addressed to me. Thank you. Please know I offer any comments respectfully. I also started with a strong dose of the Mahasi method as taught by Munindra in India, followed by more of the same intensive practice in Sri Lanka. But since our early days, our ideas and understanding of practice and meditation have gone in opposite directions. It’s interesting. I see you're based in the States now. To give a few examples here: --- Bhante Vimalaramsi wrote: > The ultimate goal of meditation is to let go and > relax all of the tightnesses and tensions that arise. …. S: So already the goal is quite different. For me, the goal of meditation (I prefer to use vipassana or satipatthana instead) is to develop understanding with detachment towards whatever nama or rupa is conditioned at this moment. Otherwise, it seems to be to just be increasing attachment to a self – a self that has less tightness, less tension, less defilements, more equanimity, fewer knee-jerk reactions etc. … >Loving-acceptance > of the present moment, then relaxing any tensions found in the mind/body > is the way to equanimity all of the time. Ergo, the knee-jerk reactions > begin to disappear with the direct experiential development of close > observation (sati) of "HOW" dependent origination actually arises in > every moment. …. S: Surely this is thinking about dependent origination? Let’s take the first factor of avijja (ignorance). Is there any direct understanding of the mental factor of avijja when it arises at the present moment? … > It is interesting to see so many people talk about "craving" but don't > really know what it is. So we get into definitions again. From the > experiential point of view, the tightness that arises with each movement > of mind is "craving". "Craving" is the "I like it... I don't like it > mind" (Please notice that this is where the false idea of a personal > self > (atta or "I") begins. …. S: I’m not sure I follow what this tightness is. For example, when one has a tension headache, the physical sensations such as heat or hardness or pressure are quite distinct from the experience of such and quite different again from the attachment. Also the ‘I don’t like it’ aversion is different again. Of course, as you suggest, they are connected in various ways, but I think they still have to be known as different conditioned dhammas. As we read in the suttas, for example in those on the khandhas in SN, all dhammas are taken for self in various ways. Perhaps you are rightly implying that the false ideas arise with attachment only. … >So when the "craving" is let go of, so is this > false idea of a personal self[atta]). …. S: I would change this around a little to say that the false idea of a personal self (atta) is the first kind of craving which has to be eradicated. It is the grossest form of attachment. So whenever there is any idea of controlling the object of meditation or choosing what to be aware of or thinking there really is any Self in control, I suggest that this false idea can be known. …. >And this "craving" always > manifests > as a tension or tightness in both the mind and body (especially in the > head) ….. S: Does it say that craving manifests in this way in the suttas or any part of the Tipitaka? I think that usually craving arises in mind-door processes following sense door experiences. …. >so the instructions given in the Mahasatipatthana Sutta to > tranquilize the bodily formation on the in and out breath is essential > because it shows one the subtle tensions and tightnesses (cravings) that > we carry around with us all of the time. In the Anapanasati Sutta it not > only tells us to tranquilize the bodily formation but to tranquilize the > mental formation on the in and out breath. ….. S: I know from your helpful website that you have written a book on this subject and here we’ve had very detailed discussions too. I look forward to many more, but I’m not sure where they’d begin. If you have time, I’d ask you to kindly look at posts saved under ‘Anapanasati’ in Useful Posts and to reposts any parts of interest with your comments. Hopefully Jon, Nina or others will help pick up this part of our thread! http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/Useful_Posts I appreciate that your main interest is in the suttas rather than the Abhidhamma or commentaries, so this may restrict our discussions somewhat, but I'll try my best to find common areas of study. …. > I hope this is of some use to you. …. S: Your posts are very interesting and I particularly appreciate your kind approach. I look forward to many discussions. Just this thread may keep us talking for quite sometime, I should think. I don't feel my response is very adequate. With Respect and Metta, Sarah p.s Howard and Htoo, I hope you will participate too! ======== From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Nov 16, 2004 0:31am Subject: Rahula's Questions Hi Rahula, It's a long time since we heard from you! Good to see you again. As no one else answered your questions, I’m just giving a few comments which occurred to me. --- rahula_80 wrote: > I have seen monks behaving improperly. I wish to know whether such > behaviors are a breach of their training rules. I am perplex with > what I read in books and what I have seen. Here are some questions I > wish to get clarifications. ... S: As I recall, you are very knowledgeable when it comes to the text. I remember we had a detailed discussion on the iddhis and jhanas for example. I had to pull out the Visuddhimagga and other texts to follow you in fact. So when you raise questions about basic aspects of the Patimokkha, I’m sure you can give us the answers as well. When we are concerned about how monks are behaving, what is the reason for our concern? Doesn’t the study of Dhamma come back to our own cittas at such a time – our own attachments and aversion when others behave in ways we don’t approve of? (Of course, this doesn’t mean we should participate in activities such as the giving of money to monks, as we know it will not be helpful for them at all.) Similarly, you mention you feel ‘uneasy and illogical’ about a published book which doesn’t agree with your understanding of the texts which is probably correct. (Please see ‘Sharing Merit’ in U.P. for more discussion about who can benefit – in brief, only those in particular realms who can rejoice in any such offering). My interest here, as you’ve raised ‘unease’ about various books before, is again the real reason for such unease. Do we tend to think that the cause of our concerns, unease and problems is really the world out there – people, books and situations, rather than our own accumulated kilesa (defilenments)? Of course, the latter can only be known by really understanding the present dhammas appearing. I think that when satipatthana begins to develop, very slowly, there begins to be less concern about how others are or are not behaving, but once more, it can be bitter medicine to get used to slowly. We can always find reasons or justify why the problem is the other people or the situation around us. I’ll be glad to hear any of your comments, Rahula. Metta, Sarah ======= 38325 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Nov 16, 2004 0:48am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sarah: "One path" Dear Dan, On your earlier crypic comments, --- "Dan D." wrote: S:> > We can question our motives for wishing to find out about higher > stages of > > insight or enlightenment at all. > D:> Huh? Peculiar comment... .... S: Is our wish to learn more about these stages due to attachment or concern to clarify what has not been realized or to help others not go off the right path or what. Only panna can know. ... <...> S:> > And who are we today to think we may hear (or not even hear) a few > words > > from the teachings and reach higher stages of insight? > D:> Huh? ... S: If we think that people today don't even need to hear the Buddha's teachings to develop various insights or that we only need to hear a little and reflect on suffering, then I'd suggest it's wrong. We are not Sariputta,we are not listening to the Buddha directly and even Sariputta who had access to all the finest teachers of his day, still had to hear the Dhamma. Metta, Sarah ===== 38326 From: Sukinderpal Singh Narula Date: Tue Nov 16, 2004 2:20am Subject: [dsg] Re: Sarah: "One path" Dear Dan, > Dan: Can you find any textual support for that, viz. that only Buddhas > could develop any direct understanding at all? Or just that regular > people can't develop the extreme depth of insight required to attain > enlightenment without the help of a Buddha? Sukin: No, sorry I can't. And I probably read about this only here on DSG, and that too I think involving much inference on my part. If for example the Buddha did have satipatthana when he was still a Bodhisatta, don't you think that given his accumulated parami, he would have been on the correct path from the beginning and would have seen through all the wrong practices and not followed any? > > --------------------------- > Dan: I don't think the connection between direct understanding and > conceptual understanding is as clear as you are assuming. That's all. > > Conceptual right view does not constitute Right View any more than > conventional right effort constitutes Right Effort. > Nor does conceptual right view does lead to Right View any more than > conventional right effort leads to Right Effort. > ------------------------------------- . Sukin: I don't know how clear the connection between direct and conceptual understanding is in the texts, but certainly it is not very clear in my own mind ;-). But any other proposition including yours just seems wrong as compared, and this is why I assert as I do. I think `view' right or wrong can arise at the mind door process immediately following the sense door. In other words `self-view' is deeply rooted even at the level of paramattha. This means that by the time there is any awareness of what is going on, our views have already hardened into. This process seems like an impossible trap to get out of. Which is why someone who meditates has little chance of realizing the fault in his endeavour. Views dictate what he chooses to do and the interpretation of results which follow. And the process of self- justification never stops. Unless of course he comes to hear and understands about dhammas, i.e. have pariyatti and patipatti. But because self-view is so deeply rooted, and all the time we conceptualize about our experiences, I think this is why "right concepts" must be presented to us first. And even this is not enough, because even the correct `theory' can be interpreted in any number of wrong ways, hence the need to be in touch with the wise friend and engage constantly in discussions. Were there instead of this, right view at the paramattha level, there would be little need to listen to the teachings, because any interpretation of experience which follows would be informed by right view of the patipatti level. And this seems quite unlikely to happen without first having heard about it. Even after hearing the Teachings, because of the vastly greater accumulated akusala including wrong view, over kusala and right view, there arises the need to be reminded over and over again about what the understanding should be. So when you propose that a person could have satipatthana without first hearing about it, you seem to be talking about really super men! When you are comparing conceptual right view with conventional right effort, what you seem to be forgetting is that the former is only a citta moment, whereas the latter is a conventional activity. In fact `conventional right effort' can be viewed `rightly' on the conceptual level, and this makes a difference if indeed wrong or right effort will follow, i.e. one citta moment. Conceptual right view is neither the activity of reading the texts nor any verbalization that one might entertain, but in fact a momentary citta which can be preceded and followed by any possible citta including self-view. And the problem may be in these subsequent moments with wrong view which is the basis of your comparison with conventional right effort?! Finally, what you say seem to amounts to that, thinking that there is such a thing as `conceptual right view' and that this leads to satipatthana, is wrong view. So who ever has this view, will not have right practice and therefore `right view'. Is this your position? If so, then my question is, what is the correct view? And would this be conceptual? ------------------------------------------- > Dan: Sammaditthi is right viewing of reality, not correct opinion. Sukin: But we haven't determined yet, if sammaditthi can also view concepts rightly. ;-) Metta, Sukin 38327 From: htootintnaing Date: Tue Nov 16, 2004 3:59am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vis. XIV, 112, 113 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > Hi Larry, > just butting in. N: We have to think of 24 classes of conditions, this is most complex. > Function is just the task of a particular citta. There are fourteen > functions, as we have seen. > recap: It conditions the arising of lobha-mula-citta by way of > pakatuppanissaya-paccaya, natural strong dependence condition. Thus > lobha-mula-citta performd the function of javana in the process of cittas. > > Nina. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Larry and Nina, Thanks Nina. I do not assume butting in. I had just been away from the internet for a while. your explanation to Larry is very good. With respect, Htoo Naing 38328 From: steven_19988 Date: Tue Nov 16, 2004 3:58am Subject: Five Visions of a Dying Man 1. I've just read an article, Five Visions of a Dying Man, by Ven.Rastrapal Mahathero which was published by Buddhist Publication Society in Year 2000. From that article, it was mentioned that "Those who will go to hell see the vision of a mass of fire, those who will go to the world of the petas see darkness and gloom all-round, those who will take birth as lower animals see visions of forests and animals and other creatures, those who will take birth as human being see the vision of their dead realtions, and those who will take birth in the celestial worlds have the vision of the heavenly palaces." I'm confused with this statement. What I was told by some reverends was that a dying man who sees the vision of their departed relatives will be reborn in the petas world (not to the human realm). Could someone here kindly clarify this to me please by citing from the Nikayas relating to this particular vision. 2. Is rebirth immediate after death or does the being or consciousness hang around in the intermediate stage (antarabhava) awaiting to be reborn? 3. I was told that the last consciousness of a dying man gives rise to the next (relinking) consciousness. Isn't this contradictory to the Dependent Origination which states that when one phenomenon ceases, the other ceases too? Thank you very much for your time in answering my questions. 38329 From: Date: Tue Nov 16, 2004 1:42am Subject: Re: There is a Practice (Re: [dsg] Re: New to Group) Hi, Ken (and all) - In a message dated 11/15/04 11:45:25 PM Eastern Standard Time, kenhowardau@y... writes: > I think the humble beginner would be doing well to have one moment > of satipatthana in a lifetime. ======================== I don't see the term 'satipatthana' as synonymous with 'wisdom' as you and some others here seem to. Only when the stage has been reached that the 4th foundation of mindfulness is the range of mindfulness does the setting forth of mindfulness culminate with the arising of wisdom. That level of practice is, I quite agree, rare. I will explain as follows: From the ATI Glossary: satipatthana: Foundation of mindfulness; frame of reference -- body, feelings, mind, and mental events, viewed in and of themselves as they occur. From Nyanatiloka's dictionary, explaining satipatthana as consisting of exercises *leading* to insight: > The 4 contemplations comprise several exercises, but the > Satipatthána should not therefore be thought of as a mere collection of > meditation subjects, any one of which may be taken out and practised alone. Though > most of the exercises appear also elsewhere in the Buddhist scriptures, in the > context of this sutta they are chiefly intended for the cultivation of > mindfulness and insight, as indicated by the repetitive passage concluding each > section of the sutta (see below). The 4 contemplations cover all the 5 groups > of existence (khandha, q.v.), because mindfulness is meant to encompass the > whole personality. Hence, for the full development of mindfulness, the practice > should extend to all 4 types of contemplation, though not every single > exercise mentioned under these four headings need be taken up. A methodical > practice of Satipatthána has to start with one of the exercises out of the group > 'contemplation of the body', which will serve as the primary and regular > subject of meditation: The other exercises of the group and the other contemplatons > are to be cultivated when occasion for them arises during meditation and in > everyday life.After cach contemplation it is shown how it finally leads to > insight-knowledge: "Thus with regard to his own body he contemplates the body, > with regard to the bodies of others he contemplates the body, with regard to > both he contemplates the body. He beholds how the body arises and how it > passes away, beholds the arising and passing away of the body. 'A body is there' > (but no living being, no individual, no woman, no man, no self, nothing that > belongs to a self; neither a person, nor anything belonging to a person; > Com.): thus he has established his attentiveness as far as it serves his > knowledge and mindfulness, and he lives independent, unattached to anything in the > world.''In the same way he contemplates feeling, mind and mind-objects. > After each contemplation it is shown how it finally leads to insight-knowledge ... From the PTI Pali-English Dictionary: Patthana (p. 402) (nt.) [fr. pa+stha, cp. patthahati] setting forth, putting forward; only in cpd. sati° setting up of mindfulness (q. v. and see discussion of term at Dial II.324). Besides in later lit. meaning "origin," starting point, cause, in title of the 7th book of the Abhidhamma, also called Mahapakarana. See Ledi, J.P.T.S. 1915--16, p. 26; Mrs. Rh. D., Tika p. 1, vi. -- At Sdhp 321 it has the Sk. meaning of "setting out" (?). My own observations: The term 'satipatthana' literally means the establishment or putting forward, not of insight, but of mindfulness. The term is not 'pa~n~napatthana' or '~nanapatthana' or 'vijjapatthana' - it is 'SATIpatthana'. It refers to a practice of being mindful, of not forgetting, of remembering, to attend with clarity to whatever arises at any moment. This practice, as I see it, begins, while still overcome by concept, with bodily sensations and deportment, bodily composition and fate, and realization that "there is a body", with feelings, their source and characteristic, their beginnings and endings, and realization that "there are feelings", and with cognitive and emotional states, including the realization that "there is mind", and culminates with the 4th foundation, the direct, nonconceptual experencing of dhammas, including all elements of the five aggregates (including the hindrances), and later, as they arise, the enlightenment factors, and the four noble actualities directly realized. [I write here "actualities" instead of "truths", because we speak here not of verbal propositions, but of existential facts.] With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 38330 From: Date: Tue Nov 16, 2004 1:48am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sarah: "One path" Hi, Sarah (and Bhante) - In a message dated 11/16/04 3:02:45 AM Eastern Standard Time, sarahprocterabbott@y... writes: > S: I would change this around a little to say that the false idea of a > personal self (atta) is the first kind of craving which has to be > eradicated. It is the grossest form of attachment. So whenever there is > any idea of controlling the object of meditation or choosing what to be > aware of or thinking there really is any Self in control, I suggest that > this false idea can be known ===================== Sarah, with respect, I believe that is surely incorrect. The false idea of atta is eradicated only with stream entry. Surely there are lesser eradications to be accomplished before that. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 38331 From: ericlonline Date: Tue Nov 16, 2004 9:16am Subject: Re: Sarah: "One path" Hey Sarah (Bhante) B>So when the "craving" is let go of, so is this > false idea of a personal self[atta]). …. S: I would change this around a little to say that the false idea of a personal self (atta) is the first kind of craving which has to be eradicated. It is the grossest form of attachment. So whenever there is any idea of controlling the object of meditation or choosing what to be aware of or thinking there really is any Self in control, I suggest that this false idea can be known. It says in the suttas that the conceit I AM is the last to go before awakening. I dont see how you can get rid of it first thru any mental gymnastics? What knows this false idea of self Sarah? Is it not just another contrary no-self idea? Please consider this. Hold to the 'I AM' thought/feeling. You will see what you are not as juxtaposed to this I AM. Relaxing and insight will come of its own accord as you will easily quit grasping at objects. PEACE E 38332 From: htootintnaing Date: Tue Nov 16, 2004 9:33am Subject: Re: Five Visions of a Dying Man Steven 19988 wrote: 1. I've just read an article, Five Visions of a Dying Man, by Ven.Rastrapal Mahathero which was published by Buddhist Publication Society in Year 2000. From that article, it was mentioned that "Those who will go to hell see the vision of a mass of fire, ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Dear Steven, this will also depend on what level of hell he is going to. If the hell he is going is 'avici' which literally means 'without interval of which is free of dukkha or physical pain', he will definitely see great flame. If other hells, fire may or may not be the object of dying consciousness. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Steven 19988: those who will go to the world of the petas see darkness and gloom all-round, ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Some see their late relatives who are petas. So seeing relatives when dying may or may not mean rebirth in human realm. This is for your later question. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Steven: those who will take birth as lower animals see visions of forests ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Asurakaya-to-be may also see forests. That is forests without any water or any other specifications. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Steven 19988: and animals and other creatures, ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Beings dying if they are going to animal realm, they may see dirty places if they are going to be reborn as lice ( louse ), mice etc etc. Some may see tummy or walls of animal mother's womb. Some see animals of same kind that they are going to be reborn. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Steven 19988: those who will take birth as human being see the vision of their dead realtions, ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I have discussed above. Going to human realm may reveal vision of womb wall, or the environment that he will be reborn. They may see their living relatives if they are going to be reborn in their families. If dead relatives this may be indication for peta rebirth. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Steven 19988: and those who will take birth in the celestial worlds have the vision of the heavenly palaces." ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Yes. Like Nanda lake, padumma or lilies flowers, devi ( female deva ) or deva ( male deva or male celestiel beings ). ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Steven 19988: I'm confused with this statement. What I was told by some reverends was that a dying man who sees the vision of their departed relatives will be reborn in the petas world (not to the human realm). ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: If dead relatives, yes, it is. I have discussed above. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Steven 19988: Could someone here kindly clarify this to me please by citing from the Nikayas relating to this particular vision. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Please ask Nikaya experts about specific statements. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Steven 19988: 2. Is rebirth immediate after death or does the being or consciousness hang around in the intermediate stage (antarabhava) awaiting to be reborn? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: There is no intermediate stage at all. There are exactly 31 realms and The Buddha already taught these and their implications. There are 4 apaya bhumis or 4 woeful realms. All these 4 realms do not have exact lifespan. It may be limitless to a few seconds. Human realm do not have stable lifespan even though there exists for specific era for example currently it is roughly 80 to 100 years. All other 26 realms do have their lifespan and they do not overshoot their lifespan. But they may be reborn in the same realm even without their knowledge. This is the point that the great brahma Baka brahma argued with The Buddha that he lives forever. Any being has to be one or another of these 31 realms at a point of time. There is no intermediate stage. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Steven 19988: 3. I was told that the last consciousness of a dying man gives rise to the next (relinking) consciousness. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: This is utterly wrong. The last consciousness is called cuti citta or dying consciousness. As soon as that consciousness disappear, there is no more being. But there are consciousness before that dying consciousness or cuti citta. They are called marana asanna javana cittas. Marana = death. Asanna = frequently arising. Javana = speedy impulse of consciousness. If these cittas are akusala, then being will be reborn in 4 woeful realms of hell, animal, peta, asurakaya. If kusala with sasankhara ( needing promptness ), will be reborn in human realm with deafness, or born blind. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Steven 19988: Isn't this contradictory to the Dependent Origination which states that when one phenomenon ceases, the other ceases too? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: D.O is always right. When there is no supportive condition, there is nothing arise which has to depend on that condition. Example: If you close your eyes, you will not see things. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Steven 19988: Thank you very much for your time in answering my questions. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: There are many who will answer your questions. I am just one of them. May you be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 38333 From: htootintnaing Date: Tue Nov 16, 2004 9:46am Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhamma Thread ( 120 ) Mike wrote: Hi Htoo, I found this a particularly useful post. Knowing the difference between pa.n.natti dhamma and parmattha dhamma as aaramma.na seems to me to be crucial to understanding the difference between jhaana and vipassanaa bhavana. Can sammaadi.t.thi ever take pa.n.natti as aaramma.na? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Of course, it can. In which way? Here you ask sammaaditthi as the subject. This means that cittas with right understanding or cittas with pannindriya cetasikas. The problem is that you have to define 'samma-ditthi'. There are loki samma-ditthi and lokkuttara samma-ditthi. Loki samma- ditthi is any good understanding. But lokuttara samma-ditthi never takes 'pannatti'. Because samma- ditthi of that kind always always see nibbana which is a paramattha dhamma. If the yogi is seeing pannatti, this is not lokuttara samma-ditthi. This again means that if someone is absorbed in rupa jhana, he is seeing pannatti and this is not lokuttara samma-ditthi. I mean the 'panna' in jhana is not lokuttara samma-ditthi. Another definition is that samma-ditthi means understanding of 4 Noble Truths. Those who are absorbed in rupa jhana will not be seeing any Truths of Noble Ones. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Mike: Or does 'sammaadi.t.thi' refer exclusively to satipa.t.thaana or maggacitta, which can only take paramattha dhammas as aaramma.na? Thanks, mike ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: This is the area that people frequently have problems. Some argue regarding samma-samadhi. Now the issue is about samma- ditthi. If say in strict term, they are only samma-ditthi and samma-samadhi of magga cittas. Not of other cittas including rupavacara rupa jhanas. May you be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 38334 From: htootintnaing Date: Tue Nov 16, 2004 10:29am Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 122 ) Dear Dhamma Friends, Dhamma Thread started with what dhamma means. Then it went on some background of dhammas. In Dhamma Thread (004), paramattha dhamma and its meaning is explained. Dhamma Thread (008) to Dhamma Thread (028) are all about different classifications on cittas. Cittas are counted as 89 or 121 in total in terms of their characteristics. Each citta of 89 cittas is explained in Dhamma Thread (029) to Dhamma Thread (070). So Dhamma Thread from (029) to (070) are about cittas. Dhamma Thread (071) introduces cetasika dhamma. Then each of 52 cetasikas is explained one after another. Dhamma Thread from (071) to Dhamma Thread (112) are all about cetasikas. Dhamma Thread (113) is introduction to rupa dhamma. Then each of 28 rupas is explained one after another. Dhamma Thread from (113) to (118) are all about rupas. Dhamma Thread (119) is about nibbana. Dhamma Thread (120) and (121) are about pannatti. Dhamma Thread (001) to (003) are introductory posts regarding Dhamma. Dhamma Thread (004) is about paramattha dhamma. Dhamma Thread (008) to (028) are about classifications of cittas. Dhamma Thread (029) to (070) are about cittas. Dhamma Thread (071) to (112) are about cetasikas. Dhamma Thread (113) to (118) are about rupas. Dhamma Thread (119) is about nibbana. Dhamma Thread (120) and (121) are about pannatti. All these Dhamma Threads are just introduction to Dhamma. The Buddha preached many many Dhamma. They all are finally any of these dhammas namely citta, cetasika, rupa, nibbana, and pannatti. When citta, cetasika, rupa and nibbana are ultimate realities, pannatti is not an ultimate reality. But pannati dhamma is the media. Pannatti dhamma is vehicle. Pannatti dhamma is solvent and it carries the essence. So far, pannatti dhamma is clear. Nibbana is clear. Rupa dhamma is clear. But cittas and cetasikas are hard thing to understood. Citta and cetasikas are mixed and this is known as sampayutta paccayo. It would be better to see dhamma by basing on citta so that everything will come to mind very clear. This means that there are 89 cittas and nothing more than that and any beings are finally at a point a citta out of these 89 cittas. Each citta has their specific cetasikas. This is not dictated by The Buddha or not dictated by anyone, any god or any God but this is citta niyama. Before going deep into each citta, it would be better to go on 52 cetasikas first so that when cittas are explained, they can easily be understood. This post is summarisation of posted 121 Dhamma Threads and introduction to coming Dhamma Threads. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome and they will be valuable. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts. 38335 From: Dan D. Date: Tue Nov 16, 2004 0:25pm Subject: Re: Sarah: "One path" [Sukin] Dear Sukin, My idea is esentially that sammaditthi is "right viewing" rather than "correct theory". The "samma" derives from the mode of seeing or understanding rather than the character of the object. The idea that sammaditthi is developed only after the development of a "conceptual right view" seems to lead to a stultifying intellectualism that, in practice, lends itself to development of ditthi rather than detachment and ends up obscuring the path rather than bringing it into view. The notion that intellectual understanding is a necessary precursor to direct understanding is very popular in dsg, but it is, I believe, not supported by the tipitaka. > > Dan: Sammaditthi is right viewing of reality, not correct opinion. > > Sukin: But we haven't determined yet, if sammaditthi can also view > concepts rightly. ;-) Of course sammaditthi can also view concepts rightly, viz. as distinct from reality. Metta, Dan 38336 From: robmoult Date: Tue Nov 16, 2004 2:01pm Subject: Noble Eightfold Path for Teens Hi All (especially James), The talk went extremely well last night. There were about 60 people (mainly teens, but a few parents). I was asked how I could put together such a good presentation for young people when I normally taught adults. I told the audience of James and his special skill in communicating with young people. James, I can't thank you enough for the help that you gave. I genuinely believe that, as a team, we may have touched some young people's lives. I have uploaded the final version (both PowerPoint and Acrobat) into the files section. I will leave it there for a couple of weeks and then, in the interest of good housekeeping, I will delete it. I believe that Andrew will also be posting a copy in his Eightfold Path discussion group. Thanks again for your contributions! Now I can get back to finalizing my "Abhidhamma - The Theory Behind The Buddha's Smile" book so that it is ready for printing in early December. Metta, Rob M :-) 38337 From: robmoult Date: Tue Nov 16, 2004 2:04pm Subject: Re: Noble Eightfold Path for Teens Woops, I meant Antony, not Andrew. Sorry, 'bout that... --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" wrote: > > Hi All (especially James), > > The talk went extremely well last night. There were about 60 people > (mainly teens, but a few parents). > > I was asked how I could put together such a good presentation for > young people when I normally taught adults. I told the audience of > James and his special skill in communicating with young people. > James, I can't thank you enough for the help that you gave. I > genuinely believe that, as a team, we may have touched some young > people's lives. > > I have uploaded the final version (both PowerPoint and Acrobat) into > the files section. I will leave it there for a couple of weeks and > then, in the interest of good housekeeping, I will delete it. I > believe that Andrew will also be posting a copy in his Eightfold > Path discussion group. > > Thanks again for your contributions! Now I can get back to > finalizing my "Abhidhamma - The Theory Behind The Buddha's Smile" > book so that it is ready for printing in early December. > > Metta, > Rob M :-) 38338 From: Date: Tue Nov 16, 2004 9:32am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sarah: "One path" [Sukin] Hi, Dan (and Sukin) - In a message dated 11/16/04 3:36:19 PM Eastern Standard Time, onco111@y... writes: > Dear Sukin, > My idea is esentially that sammaditthi is "right viewing" rather > than "correct theory". The "samma" derives from the mode of seeing or > understanding rather than the character of the object. > ========================== This is a very interesting perspective to me - novel, fresh. However, much as I like it, MN 9 seems to indicate that that right view consists of the understanding (that's al it says, "understanding") of the following: 1) the wholesome and unwholesome, and their roots, 2) nutriment of all sorts, and its origin, cessation, and the path leading to that cessation, 3) the 4 noble truths, and 4) every factor of the dependent origination of suffering, it origin, cessation, and the path leading to its cessation. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 38339 From: Bhante Vimalaramsi Date: Tue Nov 16, 2004 1:41pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Sarah: "One path" Dhamma Greetings Sarah, One thing that will helps us both is if you would remember that I come from a practical approach to the Buddha's teachings not strictly from the suttas. With that said. You said: "S: So already the goal is quite different. For me, the goal of meditation (I prefer to use vipassana or Satipatthana instead) is to develop understanding with detachment towards whatever nama or rupa is conditioned at this moment. Otherwise, it seems to be to just be increasing attachment to a self – a self that has less tightness, less tension, less defilements, more equanimity, fewer knee-jerk reactions etc." Bhante: These are words that don't have any practical meaning to me, How is this done? Seeing that 'Suffering' and the 'Cause of Suffering' is Craving it seems to me to aware of how it arises and to let it go is the way to that "detachment" and it is the way to overcome the false idea of a (personal) 'self'. So One is actually letting go of attachment in a real sense when they let go of the craving in that moment. This letting go of craving is the way the third Noble Truth (the cessation of suffering) is experienced and the method used agrees completely with the 4th Noble Truth. Again I am again talking about direct experience not philosophical concepts. You said: "S: Surely this is thinking about dependent origination? Let’s take the first factor of avijja (ignorance). Is there any direct understanding of the mental factor of avijja when it arises at the present moment? Bhante: No actually it is talking about experiencing dependent origination and thinking about it. According to the text what is ignorance? Isn't it the seeing directly the 4 Noble Truths? Above I have shown how this takes place. Also, when talking about the 4 Noble Truths the Buddha wasn't talking about the 'Cause of suffering' being ignorance. In a general sense what you are saying is true and I am talking about an experiential sense. Craving must be recognized when it arises and through my own direct experience, I have seen that right after a feeling arises, the craving arises and it always manifests as a subtle tightness or tension somewhere in the mind and body. Only then does clinging arise (and clinging can be recognized as the thoughts, concepts and ideas about that feeling). So when the meditator sees this tightness or tension and they relax and let it go, then there is no clinging. Mind becomes very clear and very alert, mind also experiences a calmness - this is the mind that is brought back to the meditation object. The releasing of the craving (or the tightness in both mind and body) is the main difference between what the Buddha taught and the other meditation practices of his day. Also, there is very sharp mindfulness present in order to see this process arise and pass away. Of course this does lead the meditator to the experience of jhana and as I have tried to show in past posts one does have deep insights arise while they are in the jhanas. You said: "S: I'm not sure I follow what this tightness is. For example, when one has a tension headache, the physical sensations such as heat or hardness or pressure are quite distinct from the experience of such and quite different again from the attachment. Also the ‘I don’t like it’ aversion is different again. Of course, as you suggest, they are connected in various ways, but I think they still have to be known as different conditioned dhammas. As we read in the suttas, for example in those on the khandhas in SN, all dhammas are taken for self in various ways. Perhaps you are rightly implying that the false ideas arise with attachment only." Bhante: Having a headache arise is very different from what I am talking about. If a headache arises then that persons mindfulness has not been very alert (at that time) and their insights into the true nature of existence are rather weak (this is not a put down or criticism but a way of showing the differences between what you are saying and what I am trying to get across). I am talking about a very subtle tightness that can be seen when the meditator practices the Mindfulness of Breathing technique like the sutta tells us to. By that I mean to tranquilize the bodily formation on the in breath and to tranquilize the bodily formation on the out breath. When this is done the meditator will begin to see this subtle mental fist in their head and mind and begin to let it go. Now let us get back to a headache (which I have not had in many years, by the way). If a person is truly aware of "HOW" mind moves from one object to another, they will begin to see clearly the process of having a sense door (Say body) and that consciousness arises, next a feeling arises and in this case it is a painful feeling. Next craving arises (as a tension or 'I don't like this feeling') and then subtle thoughts about not wanting that pain to be there. This happens many times before the pain becomes a full blown conscious headache. So when a person is familiar of this process they then notice that subtle tightness starting to grow and they relax both their mind and body. When they notice it again they do the same thing again, and again, and again until that tightness doesn't arise anymore. This is suffering, the cause of suffering, the cessation of suffering and they way leading to the cessation of suffering and this is happening many times. Each time a person does this they are gaining insight into "HOW" this process of dependent origination aqctually works. You said: "S: I would change this around a little to say that the false idea of a personal self (atta) is the first kind of craving which has to be eradicated. It is the grossest form of attachment. So whenever there is any idea of controlling the object of meditation or choosing what to be aware of or thinking there really is any Self in control, I suggest that this false idea can be known." Bhante: Here we basically agree but I would not use the "eradicate". Because this process most be seen many, many, many thousands or millions of times before the idea of a personal self is eradicated. We could say that it is let go of temporarily and ones insights become much deeper each time one learns to let go and relax. Again, I am talking about things that can be seen experientially and directly by one who practices meditation in the way the Buddha taught, not a commentary (that either forgets this important step of tranquilizing on the in and out breath, or ignores it completely). I look forward to many good discussions in the future and if I can find the time I will take your suggestion about reading past posts. Thank you for telling me about them. Maha-Metta Always, Bhante Vimalaramsi 38340 From: Bhante Vimalaramsi Date: Tue Nov 16, 2004 2:03pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Five Visions of a Dying Man Dhamma Greetings Steve, What Htoo said was basically correct but I might add something. When the dying person sees a dead relative right before they die, it does depend on what they see them doing at that time. If the dying person sees one of their relatives offering food to monks or being very kind and helpful to someone then they may be reborn into the human realm. But if the dying person saw their relative killing an animal or person then they may be reborn in the peta realm. Hope this is helpful. Maha-Metta always Bhante Vimalaramsi 38341 From: Bhante Vimalaramsi Date: Tue Nov 16, 2004 2:08pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sarah: "One path" [Sukin] Dhamma Greetings Dan, Just a quick thought, does sammaditthi have thinking in it? Maha-Metta always Bhante Vimalaramsi 38342 From: Date: Tue Nov 16, 2004 3:35pm Subject: Vism.XIV,114 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) Ch. XIV 114. (b) When the rebirth-linking consciousness has ceased, then, following on whatever kind of rebirth-liking it may be, the same kinds, being the result of that same kamma whatever it may be, occur as 'life-continuum' consciousness with that same object; and again those same kinds.44 And as long as there is no other kind of arising of consciousness to interrupt the continuity, they also go on occurring endlessly in periods of dreamless sleep, etc., like the current of a river.45 This is how the occurrence of those same [nineteen kinds of] consciousness should be understood as life-continuum. ------------------------ Note 44. ' "With that same object": if kamma is the life-continuum's object, then it is that kamma; if the sign of the kamma, or the sign of the destiny, then it is one of those' (Pm. 478). Note 45. ' "occurring endlessly": this is, in fact, thus called "bhava.nga" (life-continuum), lit. "limb" (or "practice"--see Ch. II, par. 11) of becoming) because of its occurring as the state of an 'a.nga' ("limb" or "practice") of the rebirth-process becoming (uppatti-bhava)' (Pm. 478). The word 'bhava.nga' appears in this sense only in the Pa.t.thaana (See Tika-Pa.t.thaana, P.T.S. ed., pp. 159, 169, 324). For the commentarial description of dream consciousness and kamma effected during dreams, see VbhA. (commentary to ~Na.na-Vibha.nga, Ekaka) and A.A. (commentary to A. Pa~ncaka-nipaata, no. 196), which largely but not entirely overlap. Pm. says here: 'The seeing of dreams is done with consciousness consisting only of the functional' (Pm. 478). 38343 From: plnao Date: Tue Nov 16, 2004 3:40pm Subject: Re: [dsg] two viewings of anatta Dear Bhante Vimalaramsi Thank you for your feedback. I'm sorry it took so long to get back to you. > I have some questions, If I may. When you said that 'The compulsion > to investigate' The question is to investigate what? The comulsion to investigate paramattha dhammas, usually translated as ultimate realities, though some here don't seem to like that term. As we know, this "investigation of realities" is one of the factors of awakening. Again this is a point of disagreement for some, but it seems clear to me that there is value in considering these points intellectually, that this can condition a deeper, directer understanding. I gave the example of Larry and Howard, who investigate very asutely and in a very persistent way thought intellect, as well, of course, as having other aspects to their practice such as meditation (in Howard's case, at least - I don't know about Larry) and satipatthana in daily life. (I assume) It wasn't my intention to talk about others' practices. My point is that there are many ways to investigate realities. Hopefully we will have direct understanding of them, but that is not something to expect soon. It took the Buddha countless lives to achieve his awakening. I think we should be modest in our expectations. As , the Venerable Dhammadhara ( one of the leading teachers in the tradition that is behind the foundation of this group) puts it, we should consider ourselves wealthy indeed if we have one moment of true sati in one lifetime. So first the intellectual investigation. It needn't be addictive. It needn't distract us from the true path. It can be a part of the true path, a condition for deeper understanding, and healing, and ultimate liberation. >And because I come > from an experiential background of meditation my answer would be - to > investigate "HOW" the process of arising phenomena arise and "HOW" they > disappear. The way that this is done is by watching intently "HOW" these > phenomena arise and when this is done with clear comprehension one can > see that there is a definite process that takes place. Phil: Yes, this is what we need to do. But, respectfully, the clear comprehension you speak of gaining through meditation is something that is rare and will in all likelihood take many lifetimes. Personally, I find reading about conditions (not only Dependent Arising but also the relational conditions such as proximate condition and natural decisive support condition and others) and reflecting on them, and *just* begining to see them at work in daily life is what helps me to understand that there is no self that can control these processes. I'm afraid that with my accumulations, if I were to meditate seriously now it would be all about self trying to gain something. That does not apply to everyone. That is just me. We all have different conditions, different accumulations that make various kinds of practices best for us. >That process is > the arising of dependent origination. It seems to me that everything that > does arise takes place in exactly the same way (when seen through the > eyes of Dependent Arising). So, when you say "I seem so happy to let > things fall easily." What you are saying is that you are not interested > enough to see "HOW" this process actually works. And that is fine, no > problem, we do the things that interest us the most. (This is not a > criticizes of you or the way you do things, just an observation). To let > things "fall easily" might be another way of getting caught in the False > Belief of a self, which leads to more dukkha. Phil: That was careless wording on my part. With "Let things fall" I was referring to debates or discussion points that are difficult to grasp at first glance, not to the falling away of dhammas. I'm defintely interested in the latter. As described above. The arising of any mental moment (citta) is conditioned by the falling away of the previous one, as well as other conditions, so "happy to let things fall easily" is not referring to this. Dhammas fall away beyond our control But yes, I'm happy to let debates and discussions fall away. I don't think there can be winners or losers in most dhammas discussions, because we all practice according to our conditions. You'll find that in this group there are many people who do not place emphasis on meditation. I'm one of those. But I always do appreciate hearing about other ways of practice. > When you say ." Mean the paramattha dhamma vs. the concept, the feeling > vs the thinking about the feeling? "Detachment is not particularly > interested." > > *Bhante V* > > When one is thinking about a feeling they have already had craving and > clinging arise. The clinging being all of the thoughts about the feeling > and the want to control the feeling with one's thoughts. So Dukkha has > already arisen and this clouds the way we can perceive whatever has > arisen. When ones wise attention has seen "HOW" these things have arisen > it is then easier to let go. Phil: We wil always have clinging and attachment, until we become arahants, I think. Most of the desire (lobha) is not harmful, but allows us to function in daily life. Yes, when we see *how* things arise, it is easier to let go. I used to hold on to my anger for days and days. Hold on to grudges. Of course I still do at times - progress is gradual. But understanding how conditions work, even intellectually, is so helpful. The person who made me angry does not exist in absolute terms. There are only nama and rupa, rising and falling due to conditions. To directly understand this will probably take countless lifetimes, but even understanding it intellectually is so helpful! Again, I appreciate that you don't place an emphasis on Abhidhamma, but there are so many ways to seek detachment. That is the wondrous thing about the Buddha's teaching! He saw into everybody's mind and taught them according to their accumulations. Thank you again for your kind feedback. I can feel the sincere concern that you have for people's wellbeing. I'm sure you are a wonderful teacher. Metta, Phil p.s rather busy these days. Hello in passing to Jon and Larry and Nina. Still wanting to get back to you. 38344 From: Date: Tue Nov 16, 2004 3:40pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism.XIV,114 Hi Nina, What is a dream? Larry -------------------- Note 45 ...snip... For the commentarial description of dream consciousness and kamma effected during dreams, see VbhA. (commentary to ~Na.na-Vibha.nga, Ekaka) and A.A. (commentary to A. Pa~ncaka-nipaata, no. 196), which largely but not entirely overlap. Pm. says here: 'The seeing of dreams is done with consciousness consisting only of the functional' (Pm. 478). 38345 From: buddhatrue Date: Tue Nov 16, 2004 3:43pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Sarah: "One path" Bhante Vimalaramsi, Venerable Sir, I wanted you to know that I checked out your web site and downloaded your two manuals on meditation. I began the mindfulness of breathing meditation in the manner that you suggest and have found excellent results so far. I have been following the method as taught by the Buddha which you elucidate: 1. Breathe in and out and make a mental note regarding if the breath is long or short; 2. Breath in and out feeling the entire body; 3. Breathe in and out tranquilizing the entire body. What a difference it makes!! The mind becomes clearer much more quickly, the meditation is more enjoyable, and there is increased energy during and after the meditation. I used to follow the S.N. Goenka method of focusing on the nostrils and scanning the body for sensations. It was somewhat effective but not to the degree of the Buddha's original method. As simple as the Buddha's instructions seem, they are very, very effective! I have been reading your correspondence with Sarah with great interest. You wrote, The ultimate goal of meditation is to let go and relax all of the tightnesses and tensions that arise." I can understand your enthusiasm for this lost step, because I now have it also, but I don't think that tranquilizing the body is the ultimate goal of meditation. I wouldn't even say that tranquilizing the body will directly lead to the end of craving, as you also suggest. If that were true, we could all just take a tranquilizer and become enlightened! ;-)). But, mindfulness and concentration, done while the body is relaxed and free from muscle tension, could very well be the key…at least it appears that that is what the Buddha taught. Metta, James 38346 From: buddhatrue Date: Tue Nov 16, 2004 3:46pm Subject: Re: Noble Eightfold Path for Teens --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" wrote: > > Hi All (especially James), > > The talk went extremely well last night. There were about 60 people > (mainly teens, but a few parents). > > I was asked how I could put together such a good presentation for > young people when I normally taught adults. I told the audience of > James and his special skill in communicating with young people. > James, I can't thank you enough for the help that you gave. I > genuinely believe that, as a team, we may have touched some young > people's lives. Friend Rob M., Sure, no problem. I think that most of the kudos should go to you. Excellent job! Metta, James 38347 From: plnao Date: Tue Nov 16, 2004 5:27pm Subject: Re: [dsg] two viewings of anatta Dear Bhante Vimalaramsi A quick p.s to my previous note. After sending that message to you I took a bath and as I soaked I thought about the implications of a rank beginner like myself discussing dhamma with an ordained monk like yourself! What impudence, I thought. On the other hand, I thought, maybe it is best to remember that right understanding rises in moments rather than weeks or months or years, so while it is far, far more likely that your right understanding will correct my views, there may also arise moments in which I could help you! This was another reminder that in absolute terms there is no Bhante and Phil, but only nama and rupa rising and falling due to conditions. Remembering this, my sense of regret at being impudent fell away and there was metta. And then this remembering of rupa and nama fell away and I was back to your being an ordained monk with great experience and insight and my being a rank beginner, with all that implies. Which is in this case gratitude that I am able to discuss dhamma with a venerable monk! Metta, Phil ----- Original Message ----- From: "plnao" To: Sent: Wednesday, November 17, 2004 8:40 AM Subject: Re: [dsg] two viewings of anatta > > > > Dear Bhante Vimalaramsi > > Thank you for your feedback. I'm sorry it took so long to get back to you. > 38348 From: m. nease Date: Tue Nov 16, 2004 5:35pm Subject: Re: [dsg] two viewings of anatta Hi Phil, ----- Original Message ----- From: "plnao" To: Sent: Sunday, November 14, 2004 4:40 AM Subject: Re: [dsg] two viewings of anatta > These days it seems to me that yoniso manasikaara is coming up > all the time in suttas that I respond to. It seems to me from what > I'm understanding these days that it is at the arising of manasikaara > that there is the pivotal moment. When we have wise attention to > the attractive object, we do not get swept away in lobha > proliferation (can that be said) and if there is wise attention to > the unpleasant object, we do not get swept away in dosa cittas. > > It is yoniko manasikaara that stops proliferation, and panna that... > > I see in CMA that "the proximate cause is wise attention." I've just finished a thorough reading of the copy of CMA that Jon and Sarah gave me in Bangkok in December of 2001. I've used it as a reference ever since but have only recently read it cover to cover, on my bus ride to work in the mornings. When finished, I picked up Rupert Gethin's 'Summary of the Topics of Abhidhamma etc.', published the next year by PTS--I think I got it as my free book with my annual dues (a bonus I can't recommend highly enough). Gethin's text is an edition of a translation by R.P. Wijeratne, who, by the way, mentions in his original preface "My thanks are also due to Mr. Jonathan Abbot for having sent me the Thai edition of the atthayojana to the .tiikaa..."--Anumodanaa, Jon. Anyway, yonisoo manasikaara is very important, I think. Wijeratne/Gethin's translation (often very different from what we're used to) is 'clear bringing to mind'. They write: "...the wholesome, etc., state of the wholesome and unwholesome is dependent on clear and unclear bringing to mind [respectively]. Hence it is said, 'To one who brings [things] to mind clearly, Monks, wholesome dhammas that have not arisen arise, and wholesome dhammas that have arisen increase.'*" An interesting reflection on sammaavaayaama, I think. I haven't had time yet to compare this to the CMA translation but thought you'd find it interesting, Phil. Thanks for the reminder. mike *A I 12. 38349 From: m. nease Date: Tue Nov 16, 2004 5:46pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sarah: "One path" Hi Robert, This is the way it seems to me too, also for the khandhas etc. Kusala kamma is common (thought rare relative to akusala) to all religions and to atheism too. Leads to the relentless snare of rebirth-linking nevertheless, unfortunately. mike ----- Original Message ----- From: "rjkjp1" To: Sent: Friday, November 12, 2004 9:40 AM Subject: [dsg] Re: Sarah: "One path" > > > Dear Ken, > I think that those of other traditions can perform (conventionally) > selfless acts. > > But because only a Buddha can teach anatta they cannot develop > penetrative insight into the four noble truths and paticcasamuppada. > > I think they can develop most types of right view too- related to > kamma . But they can't develop vipassana. > > > Robertk 38350 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Nov 16, 2004 8:57pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Contradiction between Bhikkhu Bodhi ’s CMA and Visuddhimagga? Dear Rob M, op 16-11-2004 08:28 schreef robmoult op rob.moult@j...: > Nina, am I correct in interpreting the text as saying that very > desirable and very undesirable is always associated with body door > whereas the slightly desirable and slightly undesirable are > associated with objects from the other doors? N: No, also with the other sense-doors. Very desirable: seeing the colour of a Buddha. Very undesirable: seeing the colour of something very filthy. But as to feeling, the feeling is indifferent, except for the investigating-consciousness which takes that same object, as you know. When it is very desirable its accompanying feeling is pleasant. All these moments are very short. Different feelings arise because of the proper conditions. R: For example, remember > the cotton ball (derived rupas) and anvil (primary rupas) > explanation of why impingement on the sense door results in > pleasurable / painful feeling whereas all other impingements result > in neutral feeling in the sense-consciousness cittas N: True, feeling accompanying body-consciousness is always either painful or pleasant. (You mean by sense door: body-door). If I am not clear, please continue. Nina. 38351 From: Dhammaasoka Date: Tue Nov 16, 2004 9:55pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Need help here :) Dear Nina and all, Thanks for the reply. However, there is conflict here. "The Essence of Buddha Abhidhamma" Chapter V, p204, by Dr. Mehm Tin Mon (published in 1995 April) and "Introducing the Higher Teaching of the Buddha: Buddha Abhidhamma Ultimate Science"(printed by Fo Guang Shan Malaysia at Nov 2002, revised edition of "The Essence of Buddha Abhidhamma") by Dr Mehm Tin Mon Chapter V, p194. have different statement. The earlier book follows the statement in "A Manual of Abhidhamma" 4th Revised Edition by Ven. Narada (published in Malaysia 1987), Chapter III, p169 but the later book defute the idea. I have asked Dr. Mehm Tin Mon about it and he said the later is the correct one. It is because the seventh javana has the accumulate support from all the previous six javanas. As I know that, in "A Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma" by Bikkhu Bodhi, chapter V, pg205 follows the Ven. Narada's statement but I don't have the English version copy, so I can't show Dr. Mehm about it. I will show the "A Manual of Abhidhamma" 4th Revised Edition by Ven. Narada to Dr. Mehm tonight. (I am currently attending his abhidhamma class in Brickfields, KL). By the way, is there any other reference source that mention about the strongness of the janvana? Thank you, Nina. With best regards, Lee 38352 From: kenhowardau Date: Tue Nov 16, 2004 9:58pm Subject: There is a Practice (Re: [dsg] Re: New to Group) Hi Howard, -------------- H: > Ken, you say that the practice consists of "In a moment when panna arises to know an arisen dhamma, there is right understanding, right thought, right effort, right mindfulness and right concentration. In other words, there is right practice, satipatthana." What you have described is an event, something happening, namely pa~n~na arising. What makes that practice? -------------- I think it is called the practice, rather than the end result, because it is not yet the way out of samsara. It is not the Ariyan Eightfold Path, but it is the practice that leads to the Path. It reveals the unsatisfactoriness and soullessness of conditioned reality, and this eventually conditions dispassion and renunciation. They in turn condition knowledge of Nibbana and the Ariyan Eightfold Path. So renunciation and Path-consciousness are the 'end results' (pativedha, penetration of the Dhamma) whereas satipatthana is the practice (patipatti) and the three forms of study are the preliminary requirements (pariyatti). ------------------------------ H: > That's like saying that practicing to play a violin is "At the time one tucks a violin under one's chin and applies the bow, music arises". > ------------------------------ My description of Dhamma practice was in terms of paramattha dhammas. After deleting several attempts, I have to admit I don't know how to describe violin practice in the same way. It is traditionally associated with aversion, but, for the mature student, attachment would be more likely. I dare say it could also occur with kusala consciousness and even with direct knowledge of a paramattha dhamma (e.g., audible object or hearing). In other words, there can be Dhamma practice and violin practice at the same time. ----------------- H: > What actions lead to the arising of the pa~n~na? > ----------------- I suggested in my previous post that you were, unwillingly, insisting on an element of self. That is, you couldn't accept the reality of soulless, disinterested phenomena arising for the briefest of moments, conditioning their successors, and disappearing forever. Of course, I know you accept this in principle, but I wonder why you insist on some sort of personal involvement in satipatthana. If there was something more than conditioned dhammas then there could be actions (rites and rituals) leading to the arising of panna. But there is nothing more, and so panna arises independent of ceremony and only when the conditions are right. -------------------------------- H: > The setting up of conditions that lead to the arising of wisdom is what constitutes practice, Ken. The arising of wisdom is the *result* of practice. > -------------------------------- To make a difficult topic even more difficult, we are applying the same terminology to different things. In my opinion, the suttas describe satipatthana as 'practice' and they describe study as a 'condition for practice,' so I am happy with that terminology. You, however, think the suttas describe satipatthana as the end result and you think study [and formal meditation] are practices that condition the end result. --------------- H: > It seems to me that the *only* practice you countenance is study. --------------- That's a fair comment (apart from calling study a practice). As far as I am aware, the three forms of study described in the suttas are the only preconditions for satipatthana. But they are not taught in a prescriptive way (as if there was a self who could do something now and benefit from it later). If there is no satipatthana now, that is probably because the necessary study has not been done. That is part of the Buddha's description of the present moment, which it is all we need to know. -------------- H: > I insist on no such thing. What I insist on is that practice consists of volitional action. If there is no such thing, then there is no practice and no Dhamma. There is nothing but good or bad luck, requiring nothing of us, for volition is non-existent. You appear to be a devote' of randomness, it seems to me. -------------- But no one has suggested that panna arises in the absence of volition. Nor has anyone suggested that the other three factors-for- enlightenment arise in the absence of volition. However, volition is a conditioned dhamma - there is no self that controls it. The Buddha taught the Dhamma and, in my opinion, all we need to do is to locate that teaching, hear it and understand it. I think the onus is on you to explain how volition adds another dimension. Why do we need, not only to understand the Dhamma, but also to perform certain actions? ------------------------ H: > > >To expect new > results without new conditions is ... odd. > > > > >---------------------;---- > KH: > > I agree: we should be wary of thinking of panna as vipaka. It is not > a sense object that is experienced by virtue of past kamma: it is a > volitional sankhara. > > ------------------------------------------ H: > Fascinating! So you claim that pa~n~na is unconditioned. It does not arise from causes. It is another nibbana! (Or, calling it a "volitional sankhara", you think that pa~n~na can be directly willed, an opposite sort of extreme view, giving too much power to cetana.) > ------------------------------------------- I can see that my statement was a bit obscure, but I can't see how you interpreted it the way you have. Let's skip it. Thanks for your other, more recent, message. I want to reply to it, but I am going away again. So, if I don't get around to it today there might be another long delay. Kind regards, Ken H 38353 From: plnao Date: Tue Nov 16, 2004 10:46pm Subject: Re: There is a Practice (Re: [dsg] Re: New to Group) Hi Ken > > I think the humble beginner would be doing well to have one moment > of satipatthana in a lifetime. On the other hand, the ariyan monks > described in the Satipatthana Sutta seemed to practice satipatthana > wherever they were and whatever they were doing. > > I think you and I agree that satipatthana would not have stopped > those monks from paying full attention to their activities. They > would not have felt obliged to > note, "seeing" "hearing" "walking" "talking" "bending" "lifting" and > so on. > > Imagine doing that while you are trying to teach a class! In my > experience, that sort of mindfulness makes it nearly > impossible to perform ordinary duties. Worse still, it is an > imitation of satipatthana based on a wrong understanding of the > Dhamma. Ph: I agree with you. The other day Christine asked about which sutta we would like to fully understand, or words to that effect. I would have answered the very first sutta, in which the Buddha lays out the Four Noble Truths, or the Satipatthana Sutta. It seems to me to be very easy to misunderstand. Surely the Buddha did not intend people to be behaving in an unnatural way. I think part of the Middle Way is the middle way between being caught up and swept away by following conditioned habits, and behaving in an overtly intentional way that might appear to stamp them out but which would result in this person walking through life thnking "I am walking" all the time. The Buddha didn't want that, or so I believe. > ------------------ > Ph: > As we know, K Sujin's teaching of Abhidhamma stresses the > rarity of the arising of understanding of realities. > > ------------------ > > It would be good to understand why it is rare. That would certainly > be more constructive than wanting it to be frequent. Ph: Yes. There are so many conditions involved in a moment of kusala. They are laid out somewhere by Nina in a post I have re-read recently. So many necessary conditions. This discourages us from predicting kusala, and it discourages us from thinking of the wholesome moments as something we are responsible for. > ----------- > Ph: > I think that approach is helpful for conditioning patience. On > the other hand, it seems to this beginner that understanding can > arise in a more shallow and yet still helpful way day in day out, > perhaps many times during a busy day. There are degrees of panna. > And degrees of "practice?" > > ----------- > > Yes, but satipatthana occurs in the natural course of daily life. If > we have any ideas of a special, preparatory, state of mind then we > have not listened to, and wisely considered, the Dhamma. That will > mean the conditions for satipatthana are not present. Ph: I agree with you. But I would also say that there is more than one way to "wisely consider the Dhamma". It depends on our accumulations, on conditions. For you and I and others, there are not conditions in this lifetime (yet, or no longer) for formal meditation/seeking jhanas, for example. For other people, including some DSG members, those conditions are there. I don't think we should assume that a tradition based on dry insight in daily life based on an appreciation of Abhidhamma is the only right way to wisely consider the Dhamma. The Buddha had wondrous insight into people's accumulations, and taught in different ways, accordingly. Metta, Phil 38354 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Nov 16, 2004 11:40pm Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 51-Feeling/Vedana (x) Dear Friends, Cetasikas by Nina van Gorkom. http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch.2 Feeling (Vedana) contd] ***** Since there is such a variety of feelings, it is useful to know more classifications of feeling. Feelings can be classified by way of contact through the six doors of the eyes, ears, nose, tongue, body-sense and mind. Cittas experience objects through six doors and through these doors pleasant and unpleasant objects are experienced. On account of a pleasant object there is often lobhamúla- citta which can be accompanied by somanassa or upekkhå, and on account of an unpleasant object there is often dosa-múlacitta which is accompanied by domanassa. If we understand that the experience of pleasant and unpleasant objects and the different feelings which arise on account of them are conditioned we will attach less importance to the kind of feeling which arises at a particular moment. The experience of pleasant or unpleasant objects through the senses is vipåka conditioned by kamma, and the kusala cittas or akusala cittas arising on account of the objects which are experienced are conditioned by our accumulated tendencies. There is no self who can exercise power over any reality which arises, there are only nåma and rúpa which arise because of conditions. Sometimes there are conditions for indifferent feeling, sometimes for pleasant feeling, sometimes for unpleasant feeling (1). *** 1) Feelings can be classified in several more ways. See Kindred Sayings IV, Saîåyatana-vagga, Kindred Sayings about Feeling, §22, where feelings are classified as hundred and eight. ****** [Feeling(Vedana) to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 38355 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Nov 17, 2004 0:03am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sarah: "One path" Hi Howard, --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Sarah, with respect, I believe that is surely incorrect. The > false > idea of atta is eradicated only with stream entry. Surely there are > lesser > eradications to be accomplished before that. .... Like which? Attachment to sensuous clinging is only eradicated by an anagami and so is aversion. Other wrong views, envy, stinginess, killing, stealing and the intention to or actual breaking of the other precepts are only eradicated when self-view is eradicated at stream-entry. It may seem in this life that there may not be any inclination towards certain kinds of intention or behaviour, but the latent tendency is there, waiting for an opportunity, maybe next life......While there are wrong views being accumulated about good and bad, about wrong practice, about kamma or lack of kamma, anything is possible, I think. With an idea of self, there's no way to become detached from realities, no way for attachment to be reduced and no way there can be the eradication of anusaya (latent tendencies). This can only come about by understanding the arising and falling away of realities and thereby the inherent unsatisfactoriness of what is clung to, as I see it. Metta, Sarah ======= 38356 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Nov 17, 2004 0:25am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sarah: "One path" Hey Eric, Thanks for following the thread. You responded to the same comment of mine as Howard did. --- ericlonline wrote: > It says in the suttas that the conceit I AM is > the last to go before awakening. I dont see how you > can get rid of it first thru any mental gymnastics? .... S: I agree. Mental gymnastics definitely won't do the trick! Mana (conceit) is only eradicated by the arahant as you suggest. However, the wrong view of self is eradicated by the sotapanna (or rather by the sotapatti magga citta to be more precise). I think it's important to be clear that conceit and self-view (sakkaya ditthi) are different mental factors that arise at different moments, even though both are rooted in lobha (attachment). For example, now there can be conceit if we think another friend's posts are wiser or less wise than our own or even when there is just a kind of dwelling on another's without any obvious comparison. When we think a post is too long or should be trimmed or the tone could be improved, there may be a kind of idea behind our thinking that 'I could do better'. It doesn't mean there is necessarily any self-view at such times. Mana is very, very common, I find. .... > What knows this false idea of self Sarah? Is it not > just another contrary no-self idea? ... Panna (understanding) can know it when it arises. Like now, is there any idea of 'me' writing or seeing, or 'my' arm or body which is really seen? Is there an idea that I can 'do' something to develop sati, to have more wholesome states arise? Like any other dhamma, sakkaya ditthi has its characteristic which can be known. I think that panna has to see more and more subtle ways that sakkaya ditthi arises such as trying to pinpoint or find a particular dhamma like visible object or hardness, trying to repeat a moment of awareness and so on. This is why the conceptual understanding of realities and of awareness has to be vwery firm, otherwise 'Self' will follow the wrong path now or later. We discussed this a lot in India. .... > Please consider this. Hold to the 'I AM' thought/feeling. > You will see what you are not as juxtaposed to this > I AM. Relaxing and insight will come of its own accord > as you will easily quit grasping at objects. .... Who is or is not juxtaposed to anything and who will quit grasping here? I would say that by considering, reflecting and discussing more about the various realities that are taken for 'I AM', insight will grow as you suggest. Thx for your comments, Eric. Look forward to more;-) Metta, Sarah ===== 38357 From: robmoult Date: Wed Nov 17, 2004 0:45am Subject: Re: [dsg] Need help here :) Hi Lee, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Dhammaasoka" wrote: > Thanks for the reply. However, there is conflict here. > > "The Essence of Buddha Abhidhamma" Chapter V, p204, by Dr. Mehm Tin > Mon (published in 1995 April) and "Introducing the Higher Teaching of > the Buddha: Buddha Abhidhamma Ultimate Science"(printed by Fo Guang > Shan Malaysia at Nov 2002, revised edition of "The Essence of Buddha > Abhidhamma") by Dr Mehm Tin Mon Chapter V, p194. have different > statement. The earlier book follows the statement in "A Manual of > Abhidhamma" 4th Revised Edition by Ven. Narada (published in Malaysia > 1987), Chapter III, p169 but the later book defute the idea. I have > asked Dr. Mehm Tin Mon about it and he said the later is the correct > one. It is because the seventh javana has the accumulate support from > all the previous six javanas. > > As I know that, in "A Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma" by Bikkhu > Bodhi, chapter V, pg205 follows the Ven. Narada's statement but I > don't have the English version copy, so I can't show Dr. Mehm about > it. I will show the "A Manual of Abhidhamma" 4th Revised Edition by > Ven. Narada to Dr. Mehm tonight. (I am currently attending his > abhidhamma class in Brickfields, KL). > > By the way, is there any other reference source that mention about the > strongness of the janvana? I might be able to help here. Vism XIX, 14 describes four classes of kamma: 1. To be experienced here and now 2. To be experienced on rebirth 3. To be experienced in some subsequent becoming 4. Lapsed (ahosi) kamma The Vism clearly states that the first javana gives rise to the first type of kamma, but if no conditions arise to support it arising in this lifetime, then it becomes laspsed kamma. The Vism also states that the seventh javana gives rise to the second type of kamma, but if no conditions arise to support it arising in the subsequent lifetime, then it becomes laspsed kamma. The Vism also states the middle five javanas give rise to the third type of kamma, which never becomes lapsed kamma. A similar description can be found in the Abhidhammatthavibhavini (ancient commentary to the Abhidhammatthasangaha) by Sumangala. Does it make sense that the 7th javana that creates kamma that can only ripen in the subsequent lifetime (otherwise it becomes defunct) is stronger than the middle five javanas that create kamma that "can produce results of its occurence for even a hundred births" [quote is from the Abhidhammatthavibhavini]? Metta, Rob M :-) PS: Sorry that I am too busy to attend Dr. Mon's classes. My wife is on a 10 day retreat, so I am doubly busy. 38358 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Nov 17, 2004 1:28am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sarah: "One path" Dear Dan, --- "Dan D." wrote: > Dear Sarah, > > > S: Can there be awareness of just `dukkha' or does it have to be the > > `dukkha of a reality' would you say? If it's the latter, how does > that > > awareness develop? > > Of course there can be awareness of just 'dukkha'. It happens when > the awareness of that characteristic is very clear. ….. The ti-lakkhana are characteristics *of* realities, Dan. There cannot be an understanding of impermanence, non-self or unsatisfactoriness apart from the reality appearing right now, *except* as a concept that is thought about rightly or wrongly. From Sammohavinodani, Classification of Truths, 522 “Since it is impossible to tell it [all] without remainder by showing each kind even [doing so] for many aeons, the Blessed One therefore said: ‘In short the five aggregates [as objects] of clinging are suffering.’in order to show that all that suffering is in any of the five aggregates [as objects] of clinging in the same way as the taste of water in the whole of the ocean is to be found in a single drop of water.” ….. > "Deeply believes"? Do you mean that the mind grasps onto the idea of > a 'someone' at all times? …. S: Even when there isn’t an idea of Self or Someone whilst reflecting or performing great merit, it’s there as a firmly rooted latent tendency, arising before and afterwards, motivating the deeds and actions all the time when we haven't heard and considered the Dhamma. There’s the idea that this is the way I’m reflecting or performing dana or paying respect and so on. …. <…> > > S: I stressed in the threads with DN that it's not the language or > the > > word `vedana' that is of any importance, but the understanding that > arises > > having heard about these realities that counts. > > That's right. I was just referring to your comment that you could > accurately assess a person's understanding through conversation. …. S: I’m sure I didn’t put it this way;-) I’m sure I said or implied that without conversation one couldn’t assess or have any idea. This doesn’t mean that with conversation one will know at all. It depends on many factors, least of all one’s own very limited understanding. In the suttas we read about even arahants who could only make such assessments after conversing with each other. ….. > > > No. I'm using "moment" as a gloss for nama. > > … > > S: You were talking about awareness of the `present moment'. So > does this > > mean there can only be and should only be awareness of namas? > > Sarah, a lot has been snipped, but I was just trying to construct a > single, simple example. The example needn't include all possibilities. …. S: So when you talk about awareness of the ‘present moment’, do you mean ‘moment as a gloss for any nama or rupa’ now? If so, how do we learn what any nama or rupa is? …. > > > > > The first noble truth of suffering refers to conditioned mind > > > states, > > > > > all of which have the characteristics of anicca, anatta, and > > > dukkha. > > > > …. > > > > S: Only mind states? Are you sure? > > …. > > S: Still waiting for an answer to this one…. > > It depends on what I mean by "mind states"... but I'm not very > attracted to the idea of spinning around and around with endless > discussion about it. …. S: On the contrary, I’m very interested to know what you mean by ‘mind states’ here as I think it’s important to get this clear. Do you or do you not take the first noble truth of suffering to refer to not only cetasikas (mind or mental states), but also to cittas and rupas, i.e the 5 (upadana) khandhas ? …… > No, you silly! I'm only saying that if you don't know the meanings of > the words you are using, your conception of what they refer to is > wrong. So the "conceptual right view" you develop before there is > direct awareness is, quite simply, wrong! …. S: So when we read in suttas such as the Kitagiri Sutta about the gradual trainging, how one with faith visits the teacher, pays respect, gives ear, hears the Dhamma, memorises, examines the meaning, gains a reflective understanding etc, would there be direct awareness from the start at each moment of ‘giving ear’, or would the conceptual right view whilst listening and considering be a ‘right’ condition for awareness to arise and develop? Or would it simply be wrong here? When we read in other suttas about the necessary factors for stream entry being: a) association with superior persons, b) hearing the true Dhamma, c) careful attention, d) practice in accordance with the Dhamma, are the first three factors right or wrong? [SN 55, 55-61 “Bhikkhus, these four things, when developed and cultivated, lead to the obtaining of wisdom,…to the growth of wisdom,….to the expansion of wisdom,…to the realization of thr fruit of stream-entry,…to the realization of the fruit of arahantship. What four? Association with superior persons, hearing the true Dhamma, careful attention, practice in accordance with the Dhamma…….”] Dan, as I understand it, the entire tipitaka and commentaries are about pariyatti., aabout helping us to develop a firm intellectual right understanding in order for patipatti or satipatthana to develop. Otherwise, why would the Buddha have bothered to teach at all? Why do we both to read or discuss these teachings? If we think it’s helpful to study and listen to the Buddha’s teachings, it shows that we see the value in having a firm and correct conceptual framework for sammaditthi of the fivefold or eightfold path to develop. As you say, this is a popular view on DSG – indeed we wouldn’t be here if we didn’t see the value of considering and reflecting a lot on what has been taught for our benefit. There are many Buddhist groups who don't see any value in reading, considering and discussing the Dhamma at all, but I know you also share a lot of confidence in the value of wise reflection to condition direct understanding too. And no, I don’t see metta, dana or reflections on the Triple Gem as being *either* morally wrong or incorrect whenever the cittas are wholesome. Do you really see any conceptual right view arising with or about them as 'incorrect'? If we reflect wisely and rightly now on any aspect of the Dhamma, is it 'incorrect'? Metta, Sarah ===== 38359 From: rjkjp1 Date: Wed Nov 17, 2004 1:50am Subject: There is a Practice (Re: [dsg] Re: New to Group) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "plnao" wrote: > For you and I and others, there are not conditions in this > lifetime (yet, or no longer) for formal meditation/seeking jhanas, for > example. > For other people, including some DSG members, those conditions are there. >++++++++++++ Dear Phil, Many people think they have jhanas who are clearly deluded about this. It is not wrong to encourage people to strive for the path of direct insight, this is clearly put forward in the Theravada. Now is the time in the sasana where any who attain will go by insight alone; this is explained in several atthakattha and also nettipakkarana. We should not underestimate how easy it is for silabattaparamasa to seem like right pratice. Robertk 38360 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Nov 17, 2004 1:55am Subject: Re: [dsg] Need help here :) Hi Lee & RobM, I'm out of time - so just briefly: --- robmoult wrote: > > By the way, is there any other reference source that mention about > the > > strongness of the janvana? > > I might be able to help here. > > Vism XIX, 14 describes four classes of kamma: > 1. To be experienced here and now > 2. To be experienced on rebirth > 3. To be experienced in some subsequent becoming > 4. Lapsed (ahosi) kamma > > The Vism clearly states that the first javana gives rise to the > first type of kamma, but if no conditions arise to support it > arising in this lifetime, then it becomes laspsed kamma. > > The Vism also states that the seventh javana gives rise to the > second type of kamma, but if no conditions arise to support it > arising in the subsequent lifetime, then it becomes laspsed kamma. > > The Vism also states the middle five javanas give rise to the third > type of kamma, which never becomes lapsed kamma. > > A similar description can be found in the Abhidhammatthavibhavini > (ancient commentary to the Abhidhammatthasangaha) by Sumangala. ... Also, see ch5 in the commentary to the Abhidammatthasangaha, (PTS tarnsl) if you have it for lots more detail too. It also says the same. I understand that the middle five javanas only bring results in subsequent becomings (not this life or next) because they are already 'covered' by the first and last javana cittas which have the same nature and function. > Does it make sense that the 7th javana that creates kamma that can > only ripen in the subsequent lifetime (otherwise it becomes defunct) > is stronger than the middle five javanas that create kamma that "can > produce results of its occurence for even a hundred births" [quote > is from the Abhidhammatthavibhavini]? ... S: I don't think so. It's 'completing' the javana series, the 'concluding volition' and so I understand it to be weaker. However, one has to read carefully. In the commentary it says: "Certainly the occasion for [kamma] to be experienced subsequently [in the existence] immediately following decease, but the teachers say that when there is relinking, [kamma] produces the results of its occurrence for even a hundred births..." Hmmm....there's never anything easy about kamma and I've reached my little limit here;-). Lee, good to hear from you again - please write more often and give us any answers as well as further questions! Metta, Sarah p.s RobM - hope you saw my other brief comments on kamma-patha which followed several discussions in India. ======== 38361 From: htootintnaing Date: Wed Nov 17, 2004 3:45am Subject: Re: Vism.XIV,114 Pm. says here: 'The seeing of dreams > is done with consciousness consisting only of the functional' (Pm. 478). ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Larry, Is it right to say that dreams are seen only by functional consciousness? Could you please write down the vithi vara of a dream? With Metta, Htoo Naing 38362 From: htootintnaing Date: Wed Nov 17, 2004 4:03am Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 123 ) Dear Dhamma Friends, There are 52 cetasikas in total. But not to confuse you, there is no storehouse for such cetasikas as all these are nama dhamma. There is no cetasika stock at all. But whenever there are conditions for their arising then they have to arise with citta. Once I have classified 52 cetasikas into 4 different groups. They are 1. 7 permanent ministers of the king citta or 7 universal mental factors. It is called sabbacitta sadharana cetasikas. 2. 6 flexible ministers of the king citta or 6 particular mental factors. It is called pakinnaka cetasikas. But both 7 permanent ministers and 6 flexible ministers are all flexible cetasikas. This means that they agree with citta. If citta is kusala, they become kusala, and if akusala, they are akusala, if abyakata they are abyakata. But as 7 cetasikas always arise with each of 89 cittas, they are given a separate name 'permanent ministers'. 3. 14 destructive ministers of the king citta or 14 unwholesome mental factors or 14 akusala cetasikas. 4. 25 constructive ministers of the king citta or 25 beautiful mental factors or 25 sobhana cetasikas. So there are 7, 6, 14, and 25 altogether 52 cetasikas. 7 permanent ministers or sabbacitta sadharana cetasikas are 1.phassa or contact 2.vedana or feeling 3.sanna or perception 4.cetana or volition 5.ekaggata or one-pointedness 6.jivitindriya or mental life 7.manasikara or attention. All these 7 cetasikas arise with each and every citta of 89 cittas. When a citta arises, they all arise together and when the citta falls away, they all fall away together. All these 7 cetasikas take the same object of the citta and they all depend on the same vatthu when being is in pancavokara bhumis. So whenever a citta is talked, it is accompanied by at least these 7 cetasikas. The examples cittas are 10 pancavinnana cittas. All 10 cittas have only 7 cetasikas and no other cetasika. This again will be discussed on coming citta portion. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: 1.Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome and they will be valuable. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts. : 2.Those who start with later posts can ask whatever is not clear. Some Pali words are not explained again. If needed please just give a reply and I will deal with that portion. Example is 'pancavokara bhumis' 38363 From: Htoo Naing Date: Wed Nov 17, 2004 6:33am Subject: Patthana Dhamma Page 52 to Page 58 are ready Dear Dhamma Friends, Patthana Dhamma are explained as clearly as possible. To view from the beginning please go to the site linked below. www.geocities.com/htootintnaing/patthana1.html New pages that have not been announced are www.geocities.com/htootintnaing/patthana52.html www.geocities.com/htootintnaing/patthana53.html www.geocities.com/htootintnaing/patthana54.html www.geocities.com/htootintnaing/patthana55.html www.geocities.com/htootintnaing/patthana56.html www.geocities.com/htootintnaing/patthana57.html www.geocities.com/htootintnaing/patthana58.html So far, hetu paccaya or root conditions, arammana paccaya or object conditions and some parts of adhipati paccaya have been discussed in those pages of 'Patthana Dhamma' at www.geocities.com/htootintnaing/patthana1.html site. May you be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing htootintnaing@y... PS: Any queries 'that you have' regarding above 58 web pages may be posted to JourneyToNibbana Yahoo Group, Triplegem Yahoo Group, dhamma-list Yahoo Group, dhammastudygroup Yahoo Group, TeachingsOfBuddha Yahoo Group, and SariputtaDhamma Yahoo Group. 38364 From: Date: Wed Nov 17, 2004 3:09am Subject: Re: There is a Practice (Re: [dsg] Re: New to Group) Hi, Ken - In a message dated 11/17/04 1:00:54 AM Eastern Standard Time, kenhowardau@y... writes: > H: >What actions lead to the arising of the pa~n~na? > > ----------------- > > I suggested in my previous post that you were, unwillingly, > insisting on an element of self. That is, you couldn't accept the > reality of soulless, disinterested phenomena arising for the > briefest of moments, conditioning their successors, and disappearing > forever. Of course, I know you accept this in principle, but I > wonder why you insist on some sort of personal involvement in > satipatthana. If there was something more than conditioned dhammas > then there could be actions (rites and rituals) leading to the > arising of panna. But there is nothing more, and so panna arises > independent of ceremony and only when the conditions are right. > ========================= I said nothing of "personal involvement" or "self". I spoke of action (kamma). Practice is a volitional activity, it is cetana in action. If that can only mean to you the acting of some alleged self, that is not my problem, because that is not my perspective. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 38365 From: Date: Wed Nov 17, 2004 3:11am Subject: Re: There is a Practice (Re: [dsg] Re: New to Group) Hi, Ken - In a message dated 11/17/04 1:00:54 AM Eastern Standard Time, kenhowardau@y... writes: > To make a difficult topic even more difficult, we are applying the > same terminology to different things. In my opinion, the suttas > describe satipatthana as 'practice' and they describe study as > a 'condition for practice,' so I am happy with that terminology. > You, however, think the suttas describe satipatthana as the end > result and you think study [and formal meditation] are practices > that condition the end result. > ========================== No. Satipatthana, the setting up, or establishing, of mindfulness is a practice. Vipassana is its consequence. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 38366 From: Date: Wed Nov 17, 2004 3:14am Subject: Re: There is a Practice (Re: [dsg] Re: New to Group) Hi, Ken - In a message dated 11/17/04 1:00:54 AM Eastern Standard Time, kenhowardau@y... writes: > --------------- > H: >It seems to me that the *only* practice you countenance is > study. > --------------- > > That's a fair comment (apart from calling study a practice). As far > as I am aware, the three forms of study described in the suttas are > the only preconditions for satipatthana. > > ======================== Okay, then. If mine is a "fair comment", then I stand by my characterization of yours being a one-fold path. However, you conflate satipatthana, the setting up of mindfulness, with vipassana, its consequencel. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 38367 From: Date: Wed Nov 17, 2004 3:15am Subject: Re: There is a Practice (Re: [dsg] Re: New to Group) Hi, Ken - In a message dated 11/17/04 1:00:54 AM Eastern Standard Time, kenhowardau@y... writes: > But they are not taught in a prescriptive way (as if there was a > self who could do something now and benefit from it later). ===================== It is not mandatory to associate prescriptive behavior with a "self". With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 38368 From: Date: Wed Nov 17, 2004 3:16am Subject: Re: There is a Practice (Re: [dsg] Re: New to Group) Hi, Ken - In a message dated 11/17/04 1:00:54 AM Eastern Standard Time, kenhowardau@y... writes: > But no one has suggested that panna arises in the absence of > volition. Nor has anyone suggested that the other three factors-for- > enlightenment arise in the absence of volition. However, volition is > a conditioned dhamma - there is no self that controls it. > ======================= So what? I don't maintain otherwise! With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 38369 From: Date: Wed Nov 17, 2004 3:22am Subject: Re: There is a Practice (Re: [dsg] Re: New to Group) Hi again, Ken - I replied to your post in bits and pieces, thinking that such an approach might be a useful experiment. My thought was that it might direct my attention and yours and others to compact pieces of material. Please let me know whether you would prefer in the future that I reply, instead, all in a single post. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 38370 From: Date: Wed Nov 17, 2004 3:29am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sarah: "One path" Hi, Sarah - In a message dated 11/17/04 3:07:30 AM Eastern Standard Time, sarahprocterabbott@y... writes: > Hi Howard, > > --- upasaka@a... wrote: > > > Sarah, with respect, I believe that is surely incorrect. The > >false > >idea of atta is eradicated only with stream entry. Surely there are > >lesser > >eradications to be accomplished before that. > .... > Like which? Attachment to sensuous clinging is only eradicated by an > anagami and so is aversion. > > Other wrong views, envy, stinginess, killing, stealing and the intention > to or actual breaking of the other precepts are only eradicated when > self-view is eradicated at stream-entry. > > It may seem in this life that there may not be any inclination towards > certain kinds of intention or behaviour, but the latent tendency is there, > waiting for an opportunity, maybe next life......While there are wrong > views being accumulated about good and bad, about wrong practice, about > kamma or lack of kamma, anything is possible, I think. > > With an idea of self, there's no way to become detached from realities, no > way for attachment to be reduced and no way there can be the eradication > of anusaya (latent tendencies). This can only come about by understanding > the arising and falling away of realities and thereby the inherent > unsatisfactoriness of what is clung to, as I see it. > > Metta, > > Sarah > =========================== Okay, I see. Yes, I agree that there will be no uprooting of deep seated, latent tendencies until stream entry. However, more superficial uprootings and moderations will precede that, "preparing the mind" as it were. This is the reason for sila and samadhi. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 38371 From: Date: Wed Nov 17, 2004 3:39am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sarah: "One path" Hi Sarah (and Dan) - In a message dated 11/17/04 4:30:27 AM Eastern Standard Time, sarahprocterabbott@y... writes: > The ti-lakkhana are characteristics *of* realities, Dan. There cannot be > an understanding of impermanence, non-self or unsatisfactoriness apart > from the reality appearing right now, *except* as a concept that is > thought about rightly or wrongly. > ======================= How is there a seeing of impermanance of "the reality appearing right now"? Only with the seeing of the cessation of that dhamma is impermanence witnessed. But when the dhamma is no longer present, having ceased, there is no cessation to be aware of. Is there then a separate moment of cessation? If so, what sort of dhamma is that, and does it, itself, have an initiation and a cessation? The point of the foregoing is to point out that there are problems with a strict "momentary view". Such a view is yet one more conceptual overlay or filter of reality, as I see it. I do not think that any such conceptual scheme reveals reality. I think it obscures it. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 38372 From: Bhante Vimalaramsi Date: Wed Nov 17, 2004 8:16am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sarah: "One path" Dhamma Greetings James, When I said, "The ultimate goal of meditation is to let go and relax all of the tightnesses and tensions that arise." I was not only talking about the physical body but both the mind and body. And when I said the above I was referring to the letting go of craving which when done often enough leads to the complete cessation of craving and suffering. In the Anapanasati Sutta in the later section it says to tranquilize the mental formations on the in breath and the out breath. Since you are starting to practice the meditation in the sutta way, please remember that this is done not only while formerly sitting in meditation but it is to be done with daily activities. This becomes a truly amazing process this way. Sometimes coming back to the breath and relaxing for just one or two times brings great relief. When I first started doing this practice, I really did it as much as possible even during daily activities and I saw for myself that every thought, every feeling that arose had this tightness arise just after it. And when I let them go and relaxed there was a brief moment of clarity that had on thoughts in it. There was just a truly amazing clarity and calm before coming back to the breath and relaxing some more. As I did this for a longer period of time I began to have the insight into what was actually happening. I saw that when I came back to the breath and relaxing there was a very different kind of awareness and the insight arose that I was actually seeing dependent origination arise and pass away. What a mind blower! Dependent origination was not a distant philosophy that was difficult to grasp, it was a reality showing exactly how the process works. So the tranquilizing of the bodily formation (and the mental formation) showed me directly the deep meaning of what the Buddha was trying to tell and show us. This was such and big insight that I had to go out and practice more intensely and as I said before my 2 week retreat turned into a 3 month retreat because it was so incredibly interesting. This was such an earth shaking realization that it changed the way I understood what the Buddha was talking about in the suttas and I began to see the interconnectedness of all of the suttas through my direct experience of seeing dependent origination. As I went deeper into the meditation I began to see directly that there is a very subtle tightness in mind even when I didn't notice it before. I have just been called away to help a meditator who is here for a retreat so I'll have continue this later. Maha-Metta Always Bhante Vimalaramsi 38373 From: Date: Wed Nov 17, 2004 4:50am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sarah: "One path" Dear Bhante (and James) - In a message dated 11/17/04 12:31:10 PM Eastern Standard Time, bhantevimalaramsi@j... writes: > Dhamma Greetings James, > > When I said, "The ultimate goal of meditation is to let go and relax all > of the tightnesses and tensions that arise." I was not only talking > about the physical body but both the mind and body. And when I said the > above I was referring to the letting go of craving which when done often > enough leads to the complete cessation of craving and suffering. In the > Anapanasati Sutta in the later section it says to tranquilize the mental > formations on the in breath and the out breath. > > Since you are starting to practice the meditation in the sutta way, > please remember that this is done not only while formerly sitting in > meditation but it is to be done with daily activities. This becomes a > truly amazing process this way. Sometimes coming back to the breath and > relaxing for just one or two times brings great relief. When I first > started doing this practice, I really did it as much as possible even > during daily activities and I saw for myself that every thought, every > feeling that arose had this tightness arise just after it. And when I let > them go and relaxed there was a brief moment of clarity that had on > thoughts in it. There was just a truly amazing clarity and calm before > coming back to the breath and relaxing some more. As I did this for a > longer period of time I began to have the insight into what was actually > happening. I saw that when I came back to the breath and relaxing there > was a very different kind of awareness and the insight arose that I was > actually seeing dependent origination arise and pass away. What a mind > blower! Dependent origination was not a distant philosophy that was > difficult to grasp, it was a reality showing exactly how the process > works. > > So the tranquilizing of the bodily formation (and the mental formation) > showed me directly the deep meaning of what the Buddha was trying to tell > and show us. This was such and big insight that I had to go out and > practice more intensely and as I said before my 2 week retreat turned > into a 3 month retreat because it was so incredibly interesting. This was > such an earth shaking realization that it changed the way I understood > what the Buddha was talking about in the suttas and I began to see the > interconnectedness of all of the suttas through my direct experience of > seeing dependent origination. > > As I went deeper into the meditation I began to see directly that there > is a very subtle tightness in mind even when I didn't notice it before. > > I have just been called away to help a meditator who is here for a > retreat so I'll have continue this later. > > Maha-Metta > Always > Bhante Vimalaramsi > =========================== Whether or not tranquilizing and releasing is the whole of the matter, I sure do concur that it is of central importance. It has been my direct experience that mind and body are intimately connected, that mental constriction (craving, clinging, desire, and upset) is reflected in bodily tension, and that bodily tension is reflected in mental constriction. Letting go of one tends to let go of the other, and most especially, the body door is a relatively easily accessible doorway to the mind. As regards my own practice, when engaged in sitting meditation, the calm comes quickly and easily, and where I have to apply effort and attention is with respect to maintaining clarity and avoiding a sinking of a mind overcome by calm. When not engaged in formal meditation, the clarity is (relatively) greater than the calm, and then my attention needs to concentrate on observation of bodily sensations, especially tensions, calming them, and letting them go. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 38374 From: htootintnaing Date: Wed Nov 17, 2004 10:02am Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 124 ) Dear Dhamma Friends, There are 52 cetasikas. 7 cetasikas always arise with each and every citta. This may confuse some people whether they are always there. No. There is no permanent 7 cetasikas there. Each of them arises with each of citta at each moment and each dies out at each moment. 7 cetasikas always arise with any kind of cittas. There are 6 particular mental factors called 6 pakinnaka cetasikas. I assign them as 6 flexible ministers of the king citta. Because they agree with citta they arise with. If akusala cittas, they become akusala cetasikas and if kusala they become kusala and if abyakata they become abyakata cetasikas. They are vitakka or initial application, vicara or sustained application, viriya or effort, piti or joy, chanda or will and adhimokkha or determination. As vitakka is concerned with jhana, and jhana modifies magga and phala cittas, when talking about vitakka, vicara, piti which are jhanic factors, cittas will be discussed as 121 total cittas. So in case of vitakka, vitakka does not arise with all 121 cittas unlike 7 universal mental factors or 7 sabbacitta sadharana cetasikas. Among 54 kamavacara cittas, 10 pancavinnana cittas do not need vitakka cetasika at all. 10 pancavinnana cittas do not need to be initially applied to the object as the object hits directly pancadvaravajjana citta and then to pancavinnana cittas, vitakka is not the cetasika of 10 pancavinnana cittas. So only 44 kamavacara cittas arise with vitakka cetasika. Vitakka cetasika does not arise in 2nd jhana, 3rd jhana, 4th jhana, 5th jhana and all of arupa jhana. Vitakka cetasika arises only in 1st jhana cittas. There are 3 loki 1st jhana cittas. They are rupavacara rupakusala 1st jhana citta, rupavipaka 1st jhana citta, rupakiriya 1st jhana citta. So 3 loki 1st jhana cittas arise with vitakka cetasika. There are 8 lokuttara cittas, 4 magga cittas and 4 phala cittas. When these 8 cittas arise in the vicinity of 1st rupa jhana or in the power of 1st jhana, all these 8 lokuttara cittas are called lokuttara 1st jhana cittas. All these 8 lokuttara 1st jhana cittas do have vitakka cetasika as their accompanying cetasika. So there are 44 kamavacara citta, 3 loki 1st jhana cittas and 8 lokuttara 1st jhana cittas where vitakka cetasika arises. 44 + 3 + 8 = 55 cittas of 121 cittas arise with vitakka cetasikas. Vicara cetasika or sustained application does not arise in 2nd jhana. As vicara is the close friend of vitakka, it always arises with vitakka cetasika with the exception of 3 loki 2nd jhana cittas and 8 lokuttara 2nd jhana cittas. So vicara will arise in 55 cittas where vitakka also arise and 11 2nd jhana cittas where vitakka does not arise. Vicara arises in 55 + 11 = 66 cittas of 121 total cittas. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: 1.Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome and they will be valuable. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts. : 2.Those who start with later posts can ask whatever is not clear. Some Pali words are not explained again. If needed please just give a reply and I will deal with that portion. 38375 From: htootintnaing Date: Wed Nov 17, 2004 10:20am Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 125 ) Dear Dhamma Friends, Among 6 particular mental factors or 6 pakinnaka cetasikas or 6 flexible ministers of the king cittas that is 1.vitakka, 2.vicara, 3.viriya, 4.piti, 5.chanda, and 6.adhimokkha, we have discussed on vitakka and vicara cetasikas. Piti is also a jhanic factor. So lokuttara cittas do have variation in number if jhanas are taken into consideration. When discussing on piti, it will be much more appropriate to talk on 121 total cittas rather than 89 total cittas. There are 62 cittas that somanassa vedana arises. Be careful that vedana arises with each and every of 89 or 121 cittas. 62 cittas that somanassa vedana arises together are 1. 4 somanassa sahagatam lobha mula cittas ( for guide see DT-122 ) 2. 1 somanassa santirana citta of 8 ahetuka kusala vipakacittas 3. 1 somanassa sahagatam ahetuka hasituppada citta of arahats 4. 12 somanassa sahagatam kamavacara sobhana cittas 5. 11 1st jhana cittas ( 3 loki 1st jhana and 8 lokuttara 1st jhana ) 6. 11 2nd jhana cittas ( 3 loki 2nd jhana and 8 lokuttara 2nd jhana ) 7. 11 3rd jhana cittas ( 3 loki 3rd jhana and 8 lokuttara 3rd jhana ) 8. 11 4th jhana cittas ( 3 loki 4th jhana and 8 lokuttara 4th jhana ) ------------------------- 62 somanassa cittas Among these 62 cittas, piti cetasika does not arise in 11 4th jhana cittas. So ( 62 - 11 = 51 cetasikas ) piti cetasika arises only in 51 cittas of 121 total cittas. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: 1.Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome and they will be valuable. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts. : 2.Those who start with later posts can ask whatever is not clear. Some Pali words are not explained again. If needed please just give a reply and I will deal with that portion. 38376 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Nov 17, 2004 10:44am Subject: bhavangacittas 1. Bhavangacittas 1. Dear friends, Bhavanga-cittas arise when we are in deep sleep and not dreaming. When we are in deep sleep, we do not know who we are, where we are, who our parents are. But when we wake up there are again objects impinging on the sense-doors and the mind-door and cittas arising in processes experience these objects. Bhavanga-cittas also arise in between the processes of cittas, they demarcate the different processes. If there were no bhvanga-cittas in between the processes we would die. The bhavanga-citta keeps the continuity in the life of an individual. Bhavanga-citta experiences an object and this object is the same as the object of the renirth-consciousness. At the first moment of our life kamma produced the rebirth-consciousness and also three decads of rupa: one with heart-base (physical base of citta), one with body-consciousness, and one with sex-faculty. These groups of rupa are infinitesimal, the bodysense is not yet developed, and later on the other senses are produced by kamma. No object impinges yet on the bodysense. However, the rebirth-consciousness must have an object. No citta can arise without having an object, it experiences something, it is nama, not rupa. The object of rebirth-consciousness stems from the past life. It is like an echo of the object experienced by the last javana-cittas of the past life, thus not the object of the preceding dying-consciousness. The dying-consciousness only has the function of being the last citta of a lifespan, and it has the same object as all bhavanga-cittas of that previous life. The last javana-cittas of a lifespan experience a pleasant or an unpleasant object that presents itself through one of the six doors. Kusala kamma or akusala kamma conditions these moments. We are born as humans and thus, the object of the last javana cittas of the previous life was a desirable one and experienced by kusala cittas. As said, the rebirth-consciousness experiences the same object which is like an echo. It does not experience this through a doorway. When it has fallen away it is succeeded by the first bhavangacitta which is the same type of citta experiencing the same object, and not through a doorway. After a time cittas in processes arise and these experience other objects through a doorway. The first javanacittas in every life are rooted in clinging. We can distinguish two types of citta: the cittas that are door-freed and process-freed although they experience an object, and the cittas arising in processes that experience different objects through a doorway. The bhavangacittas are door-freed and process-freed. Each sense-door process is followed by a mind-door process, but there are bhavanga-cittas in between. The last bhavanga-citta arising before a mind-door process of cittas begins is called the mind-door, because it is the means through which the mind-door process cittas experience an object. Thus, the mind-door is a citta. This bhavanga-citta is succeeded by the first citta of the mind-door process, the mind-door adverting-consciousness. (to be continued) Nina. 38377 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Nov 17, 2004 10:45am Subject: bhavangacittas 2. bhavangacittas 2. Dear friends, The sources: in the Abhidhamma: Ven. Nyanatiloka mentions that two or three times bhavanga occurs in the Patthana, the sixth Book of the Abhidhamma, thus, it is not so that it only occurs in the Commentaries. Conditional Relations (sixth Book of the Abhidhamma), p. 149: under contiguity-condiiton (the condition where each citta is succeeded by the next one):< Life-continuum to advertence>. Thus the adverting-consciousness is the first citta of a process, it adverts to the object that impinges on the relevant doorway. It is conditioned by bhavanga-citta by way of contiguity-condition. It also occurs in the Book of Analysis, but not under the name bhavanga. The Book of Analysis (the Second Book of the Abhidhamma),Ch 3, Analysis of the Elements (90, p. 116) speaks about different cittas succeeding one another. When cittas are classified as elements, the sense-cognitions are denoted as: eye-consciousness-element, etc. The vipakacitta that succeeds this, the receiving-consciousness or sampaticchana-citta, is mind-element (two types: one is kusala vipaka, one is akusala vipaka), and also the adverting-consciousness, the first citta of a process is denoted as mind-element. All other cittas, arising in processes or the cittas that are process freed (rebirth-consciousness, bhavanga-citta, dying-consciousness) are mind-consciousnes element. We read: Therein what is mind-consciousnes element? Immediately after the cessation of the eye-consciousness-element that has arisen there arises mind-element; immediately after the cessation of the mind-element that has arisen there arises consciousness, mind, ideation (dhamma), and depending on the aforesaid, mind-consciousnes element. The Co to this text, the Dispeller of Delusion, p. 96 elaborates on this passage. **** Nina. 38378 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Nov 17, 2004 10:45am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism.XIV,114, bhavanga-cittas and dreams. Hi Larry, op 17-11-2004 00:40 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > What is a dream? > -------------------- > Note 45 ...snip... For the commentarial description of dream > consciousness and kamma effected during dreams, see VbhA. (commentary to > ~Na.na-Vibha.nga, Ekaka) and A.A. (commentary to A. Pa~ncaka-nipaata, > no. 196), which largely but not entirely overlap. Pm. says here: 'The > seeing of dreams is done with consciousness consisting only of the > functional' (Pm. 478). N: I want to explain more about bhavanga-cittas first. I do this in a separate post, it is something I promised Howard long ago. Then I shall come to dreams, I found in the Co texts. Nina. 38379 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Nov 17, 2004 10:45am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:thinking, to Bhante and Howard.. Venerable Bhante, I find short questions very inspiring, so I shall try to react to it. Butting in. First of all, forgive me that I did not respond to your Email to me. I tried, but I was not satisfied with my answer. I find it difficult to answer, because it seems that we each speak a different language. You wrote: the awareness so the meditator can "know" exactly "HOW" dependent > origination arises and passes away.> Misunderstandings can arise because of the wording, like speeding up. Howard uses it, but I know what he means. He does not mean: a self can tell sati and pañña: come here quickly. He means, one should not be heedless and cultivate the right conditions. There should be right effort, but he knows that this is not self. I think that the meditator should be alert and find out when lobha is creeping in. It is always around the corner and it is counteractive. After all, it is the second noble Truth. Anatta means: no controller, no owner. Of course the right conditions for pañña have to be cultivated: association with the wise friend in Dhamma, listening, asking questions, deeply considering what one heard. Also, all good qualities that are the perfections have to be developed, without expecting any gain for oneself. Those who have accumulations for jhana can develop it, but there should not be clinging to jhana and one should not develop it with an idea of hastening enlightenment. Re meditation, there are many posts in the archives, and I feel that it is not useful if I add anything else. There were countless debates and everyone has his own opinion. Now I come to your short, inspiring question. op 16-11-2004 23:08 schreef Bhante Vimalaramsi op bhantevimalaramsi@j...: > Dhamma Greetings Dan, > > Just a quick thought, does sammaditthi have thinking in it? N: There are many degrees of right understanding, sammaditthi and there are many kinds of thinking. There is right thinking and wrong thinking. I speak first about thinking and the objects of thinking. I am angry because of what others did to me. I am thinking of a situation and I blame others. I am always thinking of other people as being the cause of my aversion. This kind of thinking is not helpful to cure anger. The Buddha taught me: the anger is in your mind and it has nothing to do with the outward circumstances and other people. Anger is an inward reality or dhamma. Anger has become a habit, because you were angry many times. You accumulated this inclination from life to life. There are conditions for its arising, it is conditioned by lobha, attachment. When things are not the way we would like them to be we have aversion. it is also conditioned by ignorance of realities. Aversion, dosa, and attachment, lobha, are real for everybody, no matter how we call them. They are not situations, they are not persons, not conventional realities. They are real in the absolute sense. We can call them dhammas or paramattha dhammas, ultimate realities, but it does not matter what words we use. They are actually impersonal elements. We can learn their different characteristics when they appear. In this way there can be right thinking of dhammas. This is conditioned by listening to true Dhamma and considering it. This is still thinking of the level of intellectual understanding, not yet thinking of the eightfold Path which accompanies right understanding of the eightfold Path. There are many levels of right thinking. A person who develops jhana thinks in the right way of a meditation subject, such as a kasina. Thinking hits or touches as it were the meditation subject again and again and if he develops jhana in the right way he can think with absorption of the meditation subject. He only thinks of the meditation subject, he cannot have insight at the same time. In order to develop vipassana he has to emerge from jhana and be aware of jhanacitta, so that he does not take it for self. In order to reach higher stages he has to abandon thinking, because it is still a coarse jhana factor. When he reaches higher stages of jhana there is no need to think of the meditation subject. There can be absorption without thinking. When we use the word thinking in conventional sense we believe that there is a long moment of thinking which thinks of different things. However, thinking is a mental quality that accompanies citta just for a moment. Thus, while we are thinking of an event, there are many cittas accompanied by thinking which touches the object citta thinks of. Thinking is momentray. When right understanding of the eightfold Path is being developed thinking accompanies the citta with right understanding. It touches the object of right understanding. There is also concentration, but it is momentary concentration. The object is not a situation, not a person, not a concept. It can be lobha, dosa, seeing or any dhamma that arises in daily life. There can be direct awareness and understanding of the characterisrtics of dhammas, and thinking performs its function, but this is not thinking as we use it in conventional sense. The goal is eliminating the idea of self, to see the truth of anatta. With respect, Nina. 38380 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Nov 17, 2004 10:45am Subject: Re: [dsg] two viewings of anatta Hi Mike, op 17-11-2004 02:35 schreef m. nease op mlnease@z...: I picked up Rupert Gethin's 'Summary of the > Topics of Abhidhamma etc.', published the next year by PTS--I think I got it > as my free book with my annual dues (a bonus I can't recommend highly > enough). Gethin's text is an edition of a translation by R.P. Wijeratne, N: I use it all the time, also for my Visuddhimagga studies. Some transl we have to get used to, like motivations, or mentalities for cetasikas. Nina. 38381 From: htootintnaing Date: Wed Nov 17, 2004 11:08am Subject: Re: bhavangacittas 1. Nina wrote: Bhavangacittas 1. Dear friends, Bhavanga-cittas arise when we are in deep sleep and not dreaming. When weare in deep sleep, we do not know who we are, where we are, who our parents are. ...snip...snip... ...snip...snip...snip...( Smiling to Sarah :-) ) Thus, the mind-door is a citta. This bhavanga-citta is succeeded by the first citta of the mind-door process, the mind-door adverting- consciousness.(to be continued) Nina. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Dear Nina, Thank you very very much for your effort. 'bhavangacittas1.' is very clear and I am sure that even those who never learn abhidhamma will understand this post of 'bhavangacittas 1.' What I like here is paragraphing. You may notice that I use a maximum of 8 sentences in a paragraph. If sentences are long, I use only 3 or 4 sentences. This is paragraphwise. I mean 'the look of paragraph'. Paragraphing according to ideawise, when idea changes, I change to another paragraph however short they are. But when a single idea takes more than 10 sentences, I break down sentences into 2 separate paragraph. With much respect, Htoo Naing 38382 From: Bhante Vimalaramsi Date: Wed Nov 17, 2004 10:20am Subject: Re: [dsg] two viewings of anatta Dhamma Greetings Phil, One of the things that may be interesting to you is to change 'investigation of realities' to 'investigation of one's experience' this is a small changing of words but it may help. The Idea that if one experiences even one moment of Satipatthana makes this a worthwhile rebirth doesn't really agree with the Buddha's teachings (my opinion). I have run across a few monks in Asia that have the idea that trying to experience the Buddha's teachings is just too difficult for most people so they say things like this. I really don't understand this at all, maybe they don't have enough understanding of the Buddha's path or became confused, but I find this kind of thinking to be quite contrary to the suttas. If you are not interested in trying formal meditation for whatever reason that is fine. And, may I suggest trying this technique during your daily activities: when you notice that your mind is very active, let go of those thoughts and relax all tightness or tension in your mind and body and then watch your breath and relax some more on the in-breath and out breath for two or three breaths. This helps greatly in overcoming stress and the false idea that thoughts and feelings are yours personally. If you can cultivate this daily it can be of great benefit to you. Also, the idea that it takes many lifetimes to gain any spiritual benefits goes against the Buddha's teachings. In one commentary there is a story of a woman who became so strong in her faith that she was constantly saying the three refuges (that is, I take refuge in the Buddha... Dhamma... Sangha and relaxing after every one of these statements) and she gained great benefit and when she died from this realm she was reborn in a very nice heavenly realm. So her rebirth was a good one and she later became enlightened. The reason I told of this woman is an example of how one can have great benefit if they focus their mind on a truly wholesome object and relax any tightness or tension. It may be a fun thing for you to try, if you feel so inclined. Please try to see this, intellectual understanding takes a lot of thinking and pondering and blind faith before one can truly come to some deep understanding. But direct experience lets go of blind faith and thinking about, and replaces it with a confidence in the path. So when you said "My point is that there are many ways to investigate realities. Hopefully we will have direct understanding of them, but that is not something to expect soon. It took the Buddha countless lives to achieve his awakening. I think we should be modest in our expectations." I truly think this is not helpful to either you or anyone else who may not know the Buddha's path. If you want to have "modest expectations" that is fine for you, but by your saying this it may encourage others not to try more enthusiastically and is not skillful to say. When you said "So first the intellectual investigation. It needn't be addictive. It needn't distract us from the true path. It can be a part of the true path, a condition for deeper understanding, and healing, and ultimate liberation." In the West many people have become addicted to learning things from books and listening to talks and they think that they can truly understand anything if they only can read about and think about it. I have a friend who had a goat that needed to be milked every day. One day a college PhD friend came to visit and began to tell my friend exactly how (in theory) to milk the goat. So my friend gave him a bucket and told him to go out and milk the goat. This "intellectual expert" came back in about a half an hour with just a little bit of milk in the bucket. He was covered with sweat and dirt. My friend asked if everything was alright and he mumbled something and left. Then my friend went out and milked the goat. Maha-Metta Always, Bhante Vimalaramsi 38383 From: Bhante Vimalaramsi Date: Wed Nov 17, 2004 10:27am Subject: Re: [dsg] two viewings of anatta Dhamma Greetings again Phil, some one just put this on another group and I think it very good so I will copy it an show it here: "And what is the self as a governing principle? There is the case where a monk, having gone to a wilderness, to the foot of a tree, or to an empty dwelling, reflects on this: 'It is not for the sake of robes that I have gone forth from the home life into homelessness; it is not for the sake of almsfood, for the sake of lodgings, or for the sake of this or that state of [future] becoming that I have gone forth from the home life into homelessness. Simply that I am beset by birth, aging, & death; by sorrows, lamentations, pains, distresses, & despairs; beset by stress, overcome with stress, [and I hope,] "Perhaps the end of this entire mass of suffering & stress might be known!" Now, if I were to seek the same sort of sensual pleasures that I abandoned in going forth from home into homelessness -- or a worse sort -- that would not be fitting for me.' So he reflects on this: 'My persistence will be aroused & not lax; my mindfulness established & not confused; my body calm & not aroused; my mind centered & unified.' Having made himself his governing principle, he abandons what is unskillful, develops what is skillful, abandons what is blameworthy, develops what is unblameworthy, and looks after himself in a pure way. This is called the self as a governing principle." "And what is the Dhamma as a governing principle? Now, the Dhamma is well-taught by the Blessed One, to be seen here & now, timeless, inviting all to come & see, pertinent, to be seen by the wise for themselves. There are fellow practitioners of the chaste life who dwell knowing & seeing it. If I -- having gone forth in this well-taught Dhamma & Vinaya -- were to remain lazy & heedless, that would not be fitting for me.' So he reflects on this: 'My persistence will be aroused & not lax; my mindfulness established & not confused; my body calm & not aroused; my mind centered & unified.' Having made the Dhamma his governing principle, he abandons what is unskillful, develops what is skillful, abandons what is blameworthy, develops what is unblameworthy, and looks after himself in a pure way. This is called the Dhamma as a governing principle. [endquote] [--- AN III.40 Adhipateyya Sutta: Governing Principles] Maha-Metta always Bhante Vimalaramsi 38384 From: htootintnaing Date: Wed Nov 17, 2004 11:31am Subject: Re: bhavangacittas 2. Nina wrote: bhavangacittas 2. Dear friends, The sources: in the Abhidhamma: Ven. Nyanatiloka mentions that two or three times bhavanga occurs in the Patthana, the sixth Book of the Abhidhamma, thus, it is not so that it only occurs in the Commentaries. Conditional Relations (sixth Book of the Abhidhamma), p. 149: ...snip...snip... **** Nina. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Dear Nina, Regarding elements, there are 18 elements. 10 elements are all rupa dhamma. 1.rupa dhatu, 2.sadda, 3.gandha, 4.rasa, and 5.photthabba dhatu 2.cakkhu dhatu, 2.sota, 3.ghana, 4.jivha, and 5.kaya dhatu There left 8 elements. 1 of 8 elements is dhamma dhatu. Dhamma dhatu is any of 52 cetasika, 16 sukhuma rupa, and 1 nibbana. There left 7 elements. All these 7 elements are cittas. They are 89 cittas. 10 cittas are 5 elements. They are cakkhu vinnana dhatu, sota, ghana, jivha, and kayavinnana dhatu. So there left 79 cittas ( 89 - 10 = 79 cittas ) 3 cittas are not manovinnana dhatu. One dhatu arises just before pancavinnana citta and one of 2 dhatu arises just after pancavinnana dhatu. These 3 cittas do not fully know the object. They just perceive and give the object to respective cittas to do their job. Pancadvaravajjana just advert the object to pancavinnana citta and so it does not know anything about the object. It just knows that it is an object and then it transfers it to pancavinnana citta. By the same token, 2 sampaticchana cittas just receive the object from pancavinnana cittas and they have to immediately transfer the object to next citta called investigating consciousness. As they both just receive, they do not know anything about the object. They just know that it is an object and it has to be transferred immediately to the investigating consciousness. So, pancadvaravajjana citta and 2 sampaticchana cittas are not fully aware of the detail of the object. As they just know the object and they do not know the object like other vinnana cittas. So these 3 cittas are called mind-elements. They are not mind-consciousness- elements. Because they are not as fully conscious as mind- consciousness-elements. So from 79 cittas 3 cittas are separated as they are mind-elements or mano-dhatus. So there left 76 cittas. Regarding vinnana, all 89 cittas are vinnana. They can be called vinnana cittas or simply vinnanas. 10 cittas are pancavinnana dhatu. 3 cittas are mano-dhatu 76 cittas are mano-vinnana-dhatu. ---------- 89 cittas in total. But once I was attacked that manovinnana cittas are cittas that arise at mano or mind door. So all door-free cittas seem to be not manovinnana cittas and so they will not be mao-vinnana-dhatu. Could you please clarify me on these matters? With much respect, Htoo Naing 38385 From: htootintnaing Date: Wed Nov 17, 2004 11:46am Subject: [dsg] Re:thinking, to Bhante and Howard.. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: Venerable Bhante, I find short questions very inspiring, so I shall try to react to it. Butting in. First of all, forgive me that I did not respond to your Email to me. I tried, but I was not satisfied with my answer. I find it difficult to answer, because it seems that we each speak a different language. You wrote: the awareness so the meditator can "know" exactly "HOW" dependent > origination arises and passes away.> Misunderstandings can arise because of the wording, like speeding up. Howard uses it, but I know what he means. He does not mean: a self can tell sati and pañña: come here quickly. He means, one should not be heedless and cultivate the right conditions. There should be right effort, but he knows that this is not self. ..snip..snip.. ..snip.. The goal is eliminating the idea of self, to see the truth of anatta. With respect, Nina. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo; Dear Bhante and Nina, Another butting in. Dear Nina, all you have told Bhante are clear. Yes. Wording may make misunderstanding. That is why I do not like to use 'mind moves' 'clinging manifests as head-ache' etc. The Buddha totally changed the old concept. Brahmins are the oldest among other religions. Later religions are not in line with Bramins and Buddhism. Especially of 31 realms. Brahmins believe rebirth and they try to purify mind and their goal is to fuse with their god or to be reborn as Brahmas. They do have the idea of self. All other religions do have idea of self. The Buddha changed the old idea directly to opposite direction. Old one is atta and The Buddha discovered anatta. So if we can understand anatta, we are not too far. With respect, Htoo Naing 38386 From: htootintnaing Date: Wed Nov 17, 2004 0:15pm Subject: Re: [dsg] two viewings of anatta Dear Phil, Bhante and All, This message is a message that was posted by Tep Sastri today at triplegem. The original message contained to find any hints of Noble Eightfold Path in 2 sets of governing principles namely self and dhamma. With Metta, Htoo Naing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- - --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Bhante Vimalaramsi wrote: > Dhamma Greetings again Phil, > > some one just put this on another group and I think it very good so I > will copy it an show it here: > > "And what is the self as a governing principle? > > There is the case where a monk, having gone to a wilderness, to the > foot of a tree, or to an empty dwelling, reflects on this: > > 'It is not for the sake of robes that I have gone forth from the home > life > into homelessness; it is not for the sake of almsfood, for the sake of > lodgings, or for the sake of this or that state of [future] becoming that > I > have gone forth from the home life into homelessness. Simply that I am > beset by birth, aging, & death; by sorrows, lamentations, pains, > distresses, & despairs; beset by stress, overcome with stress, [and I > hope,] "Perhaps the end of this entire mass of suffering & stress might > be known!" Now, if I were to seek the same sort of sensual pleasures > that I abandoned in going forth from home into homelessness -- or a > worse sort -- that would not be fitting for me.' > > So he reflects on this: > > 'My persistence will be aroused & not lax; > my mindfulness established & not confused; > my body calm & not aroused; > my mind centered & unified.' > > Having made himself his governing principle, he abandons what is > unskillful, develops what is skillful, abandons what is blameworthy, > develops what is unblameworthy, and looks after himself in a pure way. > This is called the self as a governing principle." > > "And what is the Dhamma as a governing principle? > > Now, the Dhamma is well-taught by the Blessed One, to be seen here > & now, timeless, inviting all to come & see, pertinent, to be seen by the > > wise for themselves. There are fellow practitioners of the chaste life > who dwell knowing & seeing it. If I -- having gone forth in this > well-taught > Dhamma & Vinaya -- were to remain lazy & heedless, that would not be > fitting for me.' > > So he reflects on this: > > 'My persistence will be aroused & not lax; > my mindfulness established & not confused; > my body calm & not aroused; > my mind centered & unified.' > > Having made the Dhamma his governing principle, he abandons what > is unskillful, develops what is skillful, abandons what is blameworthy, > develops what is unblameworthy, and looks after himself in a pure way. > This is called the Dhamma as a governing principle. [endquote] > > [--- AN III.40 Adhipateyya Sutta: Governing Principles] > > Maha-Metta > always > Bhante Vimalaramsi 38387 From: robmoult Date: Wed Nov 17, 2004 1:13pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Need help here :) Hi Sarah, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > p.s RobM - hope you saw my other brief comments on kamma-patha which > followed several discussions in India. > ======== Sorry, I missed it. Please let me know which message it was. Metta, Rob M :-) 38388 From: Bhante Vimalaramsi Date: Wed Nov 17, 2004 0:45pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:thinking, to Bhante and Howard.. Dhamma Greetings Nina, When I said, "The practice of tranquility meditation helps one to speed up > the awareness so the meditator can "know" exactly "HOW" dependent > origination arises and passes away" what I was referring to is this, when a meditator sees a hindrance arise, for example, and they let it go, relax the tightness or tension caused by that hindrance and come back to the object of meditation (breath and relaxing, loving-kindness and relaxing or a Kasina and relaxing, or whatever meditation they are doing). The meditator has completely let go of that hindrance (at that exact moment), then another hindrance arises (this is seemingly the same hindrance and it arises over and over again until the meditator lets go of their attachment to it) and they treat it in the same way. Eventually the meditator will begin to become more familiar with "HOW" this hindrance arises. As this happens they begin to see more clearly and quickly "HOW" this process works and with that their awareness and mindfulness improves so the meditator recognizes and lets go more quickly and easily. "WHY?" Because their awareness is sharpened and their understanding that this is an impersonal process becomes quicker. This is a natural process that occurs when one is following the sutta instructions. When this hindrance is treated in this way (even with our daily activities) it becomes weaker and weaker until it finally doesn't have the strength to arise any more. When this happens the meditator will experience a real sense of relief, then joy arises and when it fades away a feeling of true comfort and peace arises (sukha). Mind is very composed and stays on the meditation object without any effort at all. I have just described in practical terms how a jhana arises. This kind of jhana is not a form of absorption and mind does not become glued to the meditation object, as it does when one is practicing one-pointed absorption concentration. It is a very different kind of jhana, that agrees with what the Buddha described about Venerable Sariputta's meditation experience and the jhanas had "vipassana" in them, while he was experiencing all of the jhanas up to the realm of "Nothingness". So when you are talking about the need to get out of jhana and begin the practice of vipassana as you said. It just doesn't need to happen, when one is practicing the sutta instructions. If you could take the time (if you have the Majjhima Nikaya) and read sutta # 111 "One By One as They Occurred" and see that Venerable Sariputta experienced many different things while he was in each of the jhanas, like each of the 5 aggregates, it may begin to change your mind about the jhana practice. Today, many people feel that jhana practice is not needed, and it is too hard to attain anyway. But when you look at just how many times the Buddha mentioned jhana, it can make you wonder about just what kind of jhana the Buddha was talking about. I know that the Visuddhi Magga talks about the practice of "jhana" as being a very distinctly different practice from "vipassana", but does this match up exactly with the suttas? Jhana is not some "mystical-magical state of attainment" that is only useful for attaining psychic powers, as it is currently thought to be. Jhana is simply a stage or level of understanding and meditation that has both samatha and vipassana "yoked"together and is a natural part of the Buddha's teachings. In sutta # 149 of the Majjhima Nikaya section # 10 it says: " The View of a person such as this is right view. His intention is right intention, his effort is right effort, his mindfulness is right mindfulness, his concentration (I rather like to use the word collectedness rather than concentration because the word "concentration" is so misunderstood) is right collectedness. But his bodily action, his verbal action and his livelihood have already been purified earlier. Thus this Noble 8-fold Path, comes to fulfillment in him by development. When he develops this Noble 8-Fold Path, the 4 foundations of mindfulness, also come to fulfillment in him by development; the 4 right kinds of striving, also come to fulfillment in him by development; the four spiritual powers, also come to fulfillment in him by development; the 5 faculties, also come to fulfillment in him by development; the 5 powers, also come to fulfillment in him by development; the seven enlightenment factors, also come to fulfillment in him by development. **** These two things -serenity and insight (samatha and vipassana) occur in him yoked evenly together***[end of quote]. So as you can see both "insight and jhana" (samatha) practice are conjoined, not disjoined. But this only occurs when the sutta instructions are followed exactly. I know the strong feeling about the need to separate the jhana practice and vipassana, I was taught that for 20 years. But when the suttas are looked at we can see that this is not necessarily the case. Venerable Sariputta had insights into the arising and passing away of all the things that the sutta describes. That is, as it says in sutta #111: "And the states in the first jhana - the applied thought, the sustained thought, the joy, the happiness, and the unification of mind; the contact, feeling, perception, volitional formations and consciousness; the zeal, decision, energy, mindfulness, equanimity and attention - these states were defined by him one by one as they occurred. ( this says that the absorption concentration was not present at that time. Why? Because when the meditator is practicing absorption meditation they are not able to see these things, their concentration is too deep and they only see the meditation object or countersign. the absorption jhana is a different kind of jhana from what I call "tranquility jhana" or samatha/vipassana jhana); Known to him those states arose, known to him they were present, known to him they disappeared." So you may be able to see that when I am talking about jhana, it is a completely different type of jhana than what you are talking about. I do agree with you that if a meditator does practice the absorption type of concentration, that they will have to get out of that deep state of absorption in order to see something like vipassana. But when the meditator is practicing the sutta instructions they will not and this agrees with what I have just shown. Insights can and do arise while the meditator is in each of the jhanas, if they practice the sutta methods. Please believe me when I say that I know what a truly different approach this is, and how difficult it is to give up some ideas about the way we were taught. And, this is one of the reasons that I go to the suttas rather than the commentaries for clarification. It is not that the commentaries are 100% wrong, because they have some things in them that are exactly right. But I always go back to the suttas to see if they agree with what I read in the commentaries. I have found this to be the best approach to understanding the Buddha's path. I sincerely hope that what I have presented here is not taken in a the wrong or uncompromising way. I know that they might not necessarily agree with your approach. And,these are the things that I have found out through direct personal experience and I have been teaching this method with great success for those meditators who were open to the sutta approach. The way I give a Dhamma talk is by directly reading from a sutta and then explaining it through the eyes of meditation practice. This has seemed to be by far the best way to teach the Buddha-Dhamma. When I started teaching this way, I was amazed at just how fast the meditators practices progressed. Maha-Metta always Bhante Vimalaramsi 38389 From: Dan D. Date: Wed Nov 17, 2004 2:34pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Sarah: "One path" [Howard] Dear Howard, Good question. > > Dan: My idea is esentially that sammaditthi is "right viewing" rather > > than "correct theory". The "samma" derives from the mode of seeing or > > understanding rather than the character of the object. > > > ========================== > Howard: This is a very interesting perspective to me - novel, fresh. However, > much as I like it, MN 9 seems to indicate that that right view consists of the > understanding (that's al it says, "understanding") of the following: 1) the > wholesome and unwholesome, and their roots, 2) nutriment of all sorts, and its > origin, cessation, and the path leading to that cessation, 3) the 4 noble > truths, and 4) every factor of the dependent origination of suffering, it origin, > cessation, and the path leading to its cessation. As we've discussed before, the "understanding" refered to here is not conceptual understanding, but direct understanding of those objects. There is a huge difference. If it's just conceptual understanding, then it is not 'samma'. Metta, Dan 38390 From: Dan D. Date: Wed Nov 17, 2004 2:37pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Sarah: "One path" [Sukin] And Dhamma greetings to you, Bhante. Great question. But I can only answer your question with another question: B: Just a quick thought, does sammaditthi have thinking in it? Dan: Depends on what you mean by "thinking"... Metta, Dan 38391 From: Larry Date: Wed Nov 17, 2004 2:53pm Subject: Re: Vism.XIV,114 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" wrote: > > Pm. says here: 'The seeing of dreams > > is done with consciousness consisting only of the functional' (Pm. > 478). > -------------------------------------------------------------------- -- > Dear Larry, > > Is it right to say that dreams are seen only by functional > consciousness? Could you please write down the vithi vara of a dream? > > With Metta, > > Htoo Naing Hi Htoo, I don't know anything about this. Let's wait and see what Nina has to say. Larry 38392 From: buddhatrue Date: Wed Nov 17, 2004 3:29pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Sarah: "One path" --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi Sarah (and Dan) - > > In a message dated 11/17/04 4:30:27 AM Eastern Standard Time, > sarahprocterabbott@y... writes: > > > The ti-lakkhana are characteristics *of* realities, Dan. There cannot be > > an understanding of impermanence, non-self or unsatisfactoriness apart > > from the reality appearing right now, *except* as a concept that is > > thought about rightly or wrongly. > > > ======================= > How is there a seeing of impermanance of "the reality appearing right > now"? Only with the seeing of the cessation of that dhamma is impermanence > witnessed. But when the dhamma is no longer present, having ceased, there is no > cessation to be aware of. Is there then a separate moment of cessation? If so, > what sort of dhamma is that, and does it, itself, have an initiation and a > cessation? > The point of the foregoing is to point out that there are problems > with a strict "momentary view". Such a view is yet one more conceptual overlay or > filter of reality, as I see it. I do not think that any such conceptual > scheme reveals reality. I think it obscures it. > > With metta, > Howard > Friend Howard, I 100% agree with everything you have to say here. I would also like to add that the emphasis on "only the present moment" appears to disregard the importance having insight into kamma. Before the Buddha became enlightened, he saw his numerous past lives and the numerous past lives of countless others. He saw how entities were reborn into various realms based on their actions. This knowledge led to his finally releasing his `desire for being'. Therefore, the past, present, and likely future should be known at both an ultimate and a conventional level, in my opinion. Metta, James 38393 From: Larry Date: Wed Nov 17, 2004 3:39pm Subject: what is desire Hi Nina and all, I am currently understanding that "lobha" encompasses both "like" and "want". Is this correct? These are such different phenomena that it makes sense to me that "like" is usually accompanied by pleasant feeling and "want" is usually accompanied by neutral feeling. So, when there is desire (want) it is accompanied by neutral feeling but desire usually desires what we like, and like is accompanied by pleasant feeling. If I taste a cookie neutral feeling arises with the taste but for whatever reason I may like this taste. This liking is accompanied by pleasant feeling and we say "It tastes good; I want more." But the taste itself does not actually taste good; it tastes sweet and this taste is accompanied by neutral feeling. What I want is the pleasant feeling of like. Sometimes desire is accompanied by unpleasant feeling bodily sensation. Perhaps one way to make sense out of this is that this bodily sensation is a consciousness produced rupa. If it holds true that this kind of rupa is produced by a root consciousness with a corresponding feeling then dislike (dosa) produces a rupa experienced as unpleasant bodily sensation, "like" produces a rupa experienced as pleasant feeling bodily sensation, "want" produces a rupa experienced as neutral feeling bodily sensation, and bewilderment (moha) also produces a rupa experienced as neutral feeling bodily sensation. So when desire is accompanied by unpleasant bodily sensation this must be produced by dislike. I would say the dislike most likely has "not possessing" or "not sensing what one wants or likes" as object but there could also be dislike of "want" in a general sense. This seems to suggest that bodily unpleasant tension is usually produced by dislike or hatred (dosa). Dosa tends to be self reinforcing because dislike dislikes the unpleasant feeling of dislike. And furthermore the experience of desire _itself_ is actually rather subtle. What do you think? Larry 38394 From: Date: Wed Nov 17, 2004 11:12am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:thinking, to Bhante and Howard.. Hi, Bhante (and Nina) - In a message dated 11/17/04 5:02:51 PM Eastern Standard Time, bhantevimalaramsi@j... writes: > When I said, "The practice of tranquility meditation helps one to speed > up > >the awareness so the meditator can "know" exactly "HOW" dependent > >origination arises and passes away" what I was referring to is this, > when a meditator sees a hindrance arise, for example, and they let it go, > relax the tightness or tension caused by that hindrance and come back to > the object of meditation (breath and relaxing, loving-kindness and > relaxing or a Kasina and relaxing, or whatever meditation they are > doing). The meditator has completely let go of that hindrance (at that > exact moment), then another hindrance arises (this is seemingly the same > hindrance and it arises over and over again until the meditator lets go > of their attachment to it) and they treat it in the same way. Eventually > the meditator will begin to become more familiar with "HOW" this > hindrance arises. As this happens they begin to see more clearly and > quickly "HOW" this process works and with that their awareness and > mindfulness improves so the meditator recognizes and lets go more quickly > and easily. "WHY?" Because their awareness is sharpened and their > understanding that this is an impersonal process becomes quicker. This is > a natural process that occurs when one is following the sutta > instructions. > > ======================= If I may butt in: This is much as I put it at one point. It's not that experiential events go by more slowly or that "the mind" speeds up, but rather that there is an growth of clarity. The mind always "keeps up" with its contents, but heighened clarity is required to really see what is going on, and when that is so it might be *described* as awareness speeding up, and it might *seem* as if it were, but it is just a matter of clarity. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 38395 From: Bhante Vimalaramsi Date: Wed Nov 17, 2004 3:22pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:thinking, to Bhante and Howard.. Dhamma Greetings Htoo, I have never said that clinging manifest as a headache. What I have said many, many times is craving manifests as a subtle tightness or tension and is most often seen in the head. This is a big difference. But the real problem I think is I am coming from direct experience and use words to try and describe it that you are not used to. When I say watching the movements of the mind, by that I mean that one is able to see exactly how mind changes from one object to another and for this to really occur ones awareness must be very sharp and see things as quickly as they arise. In this way awareness must be moving as fast as mind. When a meditator first starts out their awareness is very slow. The beginner tries to stay on the meditation object but mind takes off and the meditator doesn't even know it for a period of time. When a meditator becomes more familiar with how mind jumps from one thing to another the time that they are not on the object of meditation becomes less. In this way the meditators awareness becomes faster. How exactly does anatta arise? How does it manifest? Does this happen quickly or is it some gross thing that must be recognized? When I am talking about "how" anatta arises, I am showing that it first arises with craving and you have seen that I call this the "I like it... I don't like it mind" this does manifest as a subtle tightness or tension in both mind and body. Next the clinging arises and carries mind away into concepts, thinking, and preconceived ideas. This takes the meditator away from seeing what arises next, because their mind is so caught up in the thinking. According to dependent origination everything that arises does so in one particular way and the way to be able to actually recognize this is by letting go of the craving (where the false idea of a self begins). So being able to recognize exactly how craving arises is the key to the cessation of suffering. (as I see it and this does seem to agree with the teachings of the Buddha) Of course, this does take practice and from my own experience it takes a very particular way of practice, that is the following of the sutta instructions without adding or subtracting anything. Please remember, I come from a very practical approach to Buddha-Dhamma and use language to describe what happens. The theoretical approach has a very specific language that sometimes misses things when compared to the practical approach. I'm sure, Htoo, you must remember that at the time of the Buddha there were two brothers who joined the order of Bhikkhus at the same time. One brother was quite a bit older than the other. So the older brother decided to only do the meditation practice and the younger brother decided to study and memorize the suttas. After a few years the younger brother became very famous for his scholarship and giving great Dhamma talks. Then one day the Buddha noticed that the older brother, who had become an arahat was coming to visit his younger brother. The younger brother thought he would try to embarrass his older brother (not knowing that the older brother had become an arahat). But the Buddha began asking questions that the younger bhikkhu couldn't answer, but the older bhikkhu could because of his direct experience. Even though the older brother didn't use exactly the same language he did understand the Dhamma intimately and directly. When one is looking at How things work in their own practice it may not seem to agree with what one knows from books, but they can certainly understand the Buddha's teachings in a very direct way. I sincerely hope that this helps to clear up understanding about the way I communicate. If I use terms that you may not be familiar with please don't hesitate to ask me to explain it further. The whole idea of practicing the Buddha Dhamma is to help us other to understand what is taught. Maha-Metta always Bhante Vimalaramsi 38396 From: Bhante Vimalaramsi Date: Wed Nov 17, 2004 3:31pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:thinking, to Bhante and Howard.. Dhamma Greetings Howard, I actually agree with this but lacked the words to say it Thanks. Maha-Metta always Bhante Vimalaramsi 38397 From: robmoult Date: Wed Nov 17, 2004 5:06pm Subject: Re: what is desire Hi Larry, Long time no chat! --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Larry" wrote: > I am currently understanding that "lobha" encompasses both "like" > and "want". Is this correct? These are such different phenomena that > it makes sense to me that "like" is usually accompanied by pleasant > feeling and "want" is usually accompanied by neutral feeling. So, > when there is desire (want) it is accompanied by neutral feeling but > desire usually desires what we like, and like is accompanied by > pleasant feeling. If I taste a cookie neutral feeling arises with the > taste but for whatever reason I may like this taste. This liking is > accompanied by pleasant feeling and we say "It tastes good; I want > more." But the taste itself does not actually taste good; it tastes > sweet and this taste is accompanied by neutral feeling. What I want > is the pleasant feeling of like. > > Sometimes desire is accompanied by unpleasant feeling bodily > sensation. Perhaps one way to make sense out of this is that this > bodily sensation is a consciousness produced rupa. If it holds true > that this kind of rupa is produced by a root consciousness with a > corresponding feeling then dislike (dosa) produces a rupa experienced > as unpleasant bodily sensation, "like" produces a rupa experienced as > pleasant feeling bodily sensation, "want" produces a rupa experienced > as neutral feeling bodily sensation, and bewilderment (moha) also > produces a rupa experienced as neutral feeling bodily sensation. So > when desire is accompanied by unpleasant bodily sensation this must > be produced by dislike. I would say the dislike most likely has "not > possessing" or "not sensing what one wants or likes" as object but > there could also be dislike of "want" in a general sense. > > This seems to suggest that bodily unpleasant tension is usually > produced by dislike or hatred (dosa). Dosa tends to be self > reinforcing because dislike dislikes the unpleasant feeling of > dislike. And furthermore the experience of desire _itself_ is > actually rather subtle. What do you think? An object enters the mental stream through a sense door. We are not yet Anagamis, so there is a clinging to the object (we have not yet given up sensuous clinging). We cling to the object because we have perversion of perception (sanna-vipallasa) and perceive (see MN1) the object as beautiful. Craving is the name of the accumulation which conditions the arising of clinging (clinging is a lobha-mula citta). This is followed by a stage of conceiving (again, see MN1) at which point perversion of thought (citta-vipallasa) could lead to perversion of view (ditthi-vipallasa) causing aversion (could also lead to more clinging conditioned by craving). Perversion of view means that we attribute characteristics to the object that are not truly there and our accumulations (craving or "disgust") lead to lobha-mula or dosa-mula cittas through natural decisive support conditon (pakatupanissaya). Note: Craving is the name of the accumulation which gives rise to lobha (clinging), but I don't know the proper term for the name of the accumulation which gives arise to dosa; for this reason, I put "disgust" in quotation marks. Larry, does this help or confuse further? Metta, Rob M :-) 38398 From: m. nease Date: Wed Nov 17, 2004 5:52pm Subject: Re: [dsg] India reflections Hi Jon, ----- Original Message ----- > --- "m. nease" wrote: >> >> Hi Jon, >> >> And welcome back. When you wrote: >> ... >> "The importance of there being *right* understanding, no matter how >> infrequent or weak it may be (rather than striving to have something >> that >> is not, and cannot be, right understanding)." >> >> were you referring to sammaadi.t.thi in the sense exclusively either of >> satipa.t.thaana or of maggacitta with only paramattha dhammas as >> objects? From: "Jonothan Abbott" To: Sent: Sunday, November 14, 2004 4:57 AM Subject: Re: [dsg] India reflections > I would include intellectual right understanding also. The point I was > trying to make is that satipatthana is the outcome of right consideration > and reflection only and cannot be the outcome of a some approximation to > that. In other words, it is not how deeply things are understood at the > present moment that matters, but the absence of wrong view/understanding. Well, as you may have noticed I've been somewhat preoccupied with this topic lately. I haven't had time to follow up on the discussion I started with Dan, apologies all around--I still hope to come back to it if I can come up with something coherent. Just want to say, 'thanks a lot' for this response which has left me even more baffled, to tell the truth. Oh well!, I is quite at home there... The absence of wrong view isn't any guarantee of right view of any kind, is it? Well, never mind--I'll leave the finger alone for a while and just attend to the moon, as our Ch'an friends would say...! Cheers! mike 38399 From: plnao Date: Wed Nov 17, 2004 6:16pm Subject: Evil thoughts (was Re: Khanti is viriya ) Hello all I am ringing the bell, if you will, to tell you my dhamma friends about something difficult I have been going through. It will be one of those confession-like threads, so please bear with me. I've been reflecting on "evil thoughts" (as well as having them a lot) recently. I have made reference to it before, but I am prone to have far too much interest in the war in Iraq, and because of my aversion for Bush I have found myself rooting for the insurgents, and have taken pleasure in the rising American casualties. I tell you this so you know that when I title a thread "Evil thoughts" I am not talking about wanting to eat ice cream! People, I have *evil thoughts*! And not just on occasion. There have been strong accumulations building in this area since soon after the 9/11 terrorist attacks. Fortunately I have seen the need to do something about. On one particularly gloomy morning when I realized how disappointed I was that there hadn't been bad news for the American military effort, I deeply felt how evil my thoughts were, and deeply regretted them. Soon after, I found this sutta passage, which encouraged me: "And how is a person without concern? There is the case where a monk thinks, "the arising of unarisen evil, unskillful thoughts would lead to what is unbeneficial," yet he feels no concern. "The non-abandoning of arisen evil, unskillful qualities would lead to what is unbeneficial," yet he feels no concern..." (SN XVI.2) Before, I had known that my habitual trains of thought would be unbeneficial, yet I allowed them to run along on their tracks without much interference on my part. Now, at least, I felt concern, truly felt concern. This concern brought me to looking more closely at the paddhaanas, the four right efforts. Also, there was James' post on Right Resolve in the 8FP for teens series. I disagreed with some of it, but it made a strong impression on me. I post a passage: "Before the Buddha became enlightened, he realized that he, in essence, had `two minds'. He had a mind that inclined toward good thoughts and a mind that inclined toward bad thoughts. He also discovered that the bad thoughts caused him to have a great deal of suffering while the good thoughts caused him to be peaceful and happy. Therefore, he resolved to only allow the good thoughts and to stop the bad thoughts. Imagine that you each have one angel and one devil sitting on each of your shoulders. Sometimes the angel speaks in your right ear and makes you have good thoughts; sometimes the devil speaks to your left ear and makes you have bad thoughts. What should you do? Should you listen to both the angel and the devil? Of course not! You should do what the Buddha did: only allow the good thoughts; only listen to the angel. Over time, the devil will start speaking less and less until, if you reach enlightenment, the devil will disappear completely. So, you should resolve to only listen to your angel, to only have good thoughts, and to never listen to your devil. This is Right Resolve." I protested, rightly I think, that bad thoughts *will* arise, due to conditions, thus it might not be a good idea to set up this idea of resolving not to have them. Resolving to do what is impossible is not a good suggestion to lay on teens, I posted, and I would still agree with that. After all, the Buddha recognized that evil thoughts were to be abandoned when the arose, the second right effort. There are not three right efforts, there are four. The arising of unskillful/evil thoughts is inevitable. And yet, there is much to be said for being more rigorous about defending the mind against them, I think. And there is support in the Suttanta for doing so. Some examples, taken from Wings to Freedom section on the Padhaanas: (I base my interest in this on the suttas passages themselves, not the commentary by Thanissaro Bhikkhu that accompanies them) -Effluents can be abandoned in 7 ways, including destroying them. At other times they are to be tolerated. (the sutta number didn't print out. I'm sure you know of it.) -An individual with an "internal blemish" (which is later defined as "consorting with evil, unskillful wishes") may discern that this is so, and then "generate desire etc to abandon that blemish." (MN 5) - A monk may discern that "when I exert a mental fabrication against this cause of stress, then from the fabrication of of exertion there is dispassion....when I look on with equanimity at that cause of stress, then from the development of equanimity, there is dispassion." (MN 101) Of course, the ardour, the concern, the rigour will arise due to conditions, beyond control of self, but they do arise. So I am feeling less prone to tolerate certain thoughts, while still feeling prone to have equanimity towards others. This brings me to the discussion I was having with Jon. Phil > This afternoon, I read the AN IV 14 description of the padhaana of > abandoning akusala that has arisen: "There is a the case where a monk > does not acquiesce to a thought of sensuality that has arisen (in him.) He > abandons it, destroys it, dispels it, wipes it out of existence...." Same > for ill-will, etc. I have always wondered about the rather muscular > language used in this translation. (And I guess in the original as well.) > I assume that there is a progression from "does not acquiesce" to "wipes > it out of existence" depending on the accumulations of the monk in > question, or the degree of the akusala, or something. > > Jon: > The description of the 4 padhaanas is another instance of a teaching about > dhammas being given in conventional language appropriate to the (advanced) > level of understanding of the listener. (thus giving rise to the idea of > some of an *apparent* difference between the suttas and the abhidhamma -- > even more so here than in the case of phassa that has been so much > discussed on the list of late). > As I understand it, when right effort arises there is at that moment no > akusala, and so for that instant any already/previously arisen akusala has > been abandoned, and any akusala that might otherwise arise (i.e. unarisen > akusala) does not. Phil: This I'm not so sure about. The above sutta passages suggest that the discerning individual is aware of the blemish that *is* there, and that is to be abandoned, or tolerated with equanimity, in accordance with wise discernement of which method is best. Is this a contradiction here between Abhidhamma and Suttanta? I am not troubled by contradictions, if there are any. There are many ways to detachment. That's what makes Buddha's teaching so wondrous. Why not use all ways to seek detachment? (I am not saying there is a contradiciton - only that I am not troubled by the idea of contradictions.) Jon > The problem with ascribing (as some do) a conventional meaning to effort > in arousing kusala where there is presently none is that it would imply > either (a) that conventional effort that is akusala may support the > arising of kusala, or (b) that the conventional effort itself is kusala > which would mean that kusala can be made to arise by determining it to be > so. Neither of these alternatives would be consistent with what is said > elsewhere in the teachings, especially the teaching on > anicca-dukkha-anatta. Phil: I agree absolutely that the idea making an effort to arouse kusala where there is none is a trap. Thus I am no longer comfortable with the idea of generating loving-kindness. It seems to me that it arises, or it doesn't. But - and I haven't seen clearly yet where the line is - there *can* be insight into unwholesome states of mind that are accumulating in a very crude, very harmful way, and effort in a conventional way to cut off the conditioning factors. For me, that would mean making a more rigorous effort *not* to go to the internet pages which fuel my aversion for Bush and my schadenfreude at trouble for American foreign policy. I've posted about this before, I know, but have failed to abandon this habit through a patient approach. And I think it is far too harmful to continue to be patient. Another passage from MN 101: "Furthermore, the monk notices this: "When I live according to my pleasure, unskillful mental qualities increase in me & skillful qualities decline. When I exert myself with stress and pain, though, unskillful qualities decline in me & skillful qualities increase. Why don't I exert myself with stress & pain." It *is* painful for me not to check the news. It's an addiction, a crude defilement. This gets back to what I was discussing with Sarah some weeks (months?) back, but I guess it still seems to me that there are ultra-crude defilements that can be dealt with in a more straightforward way, using effort in a more conventional sense, whereas with ordinary-crude and medium and subtle defilements conventional effort doesn't benefit, and the Abhidhamma based approach and other approaches based in patience are the way to go. (Ultra crude and ordinary crude...I hope you know what I mean.) > Jon: > We should be wary of any idea creeping in that akusala in particular needs > to be the object of awareness because it needs to be dealt with and > awareness is a means of achieving that. Phil: But we should also be wary of not being concerned by the harmfullness of akusala, as the sutta above says. There are some forms of akusala that *should not be tolerated* and for which all and any means should be taken to destroy them. There are some forms of akusala, of evil thoughts, for which James' "listen to the Buddha, not the devil" approach will help me, though I am not a teenager! (Physically at least- mentally there is at times a sea of sex and gore that the most hormone drivern adolescent could feel sated in!) > The aim is just the better understanding of dhammas, meaning of course any > presently arisen dhamma. We are all inclined to see 'our akusala' as the > enemy, but this is just another instance of the subtlety of wrong view, as > I see it. See above. There *are* limits to patience. Should be. Again, I have a feeling that I am dealing with a crudity of defilements that Jon and other experienced practicioners have rooted out decades ago. That might be wrong view, but I think I am....right? > Jon: > The more persistent the kilesa, the more patience is needed! But the more intensely foul the kilesa, the less? Possibly? Another encouraging Sutta passage: "With regard to internal factors, I do not envision any other single factor so helpful as appropriate attention for a monk...a monk who attends appropriately abandons what is unskillful and develops what is skillful." This is a confirmation of what I have been feeling lately - yoniso manasikaara is very, very important. "With regard to external factors, I do not envision any other single factor like friendship with admirable people in being so helpful for a monk....a monk who is a friend with admirable peole abandons what is unskillful and develops what is skillful" This is a confirmation of what I have been feeling lately - my DSG friends are very, very important! Metta, Phil P.S Hello in passing to Bhante V. I will not be able to get back to you until tomorrow, at the earliest. Thanks also Mike for your post re Yoniso M. And Larry, forgive me but I think I will not be able to get back to you in the anatta thread. I'm falling behind. Thanks for your feedback. I will print it out as i do all valuable posts. And thanks Nina for your kind words. I would also like to thank my grade 4 teacher, Mrs Hollamby who...oops wrong speech.